Ever since Hans P. Kraus donated the Voynich Manuscript to Yale’s Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library in 1969, it has been on an exceedingly short leash. (Has it even left New Haven? I don’t believe so.)
Well, that’s about to change. As part of a special “Decoding the Renaissance” exhibition at the Folger Shakespeare Library from 11th November 2014 to 1st March 2015, the Voynich Manuscript will be on show in Washington (free admittance, too!). The Folger people haven’t yet said how they plan to display it or illustrate it, but I’m sure they will be eager to make the most of this hens’-teethingly rare opportunity.
The overall exhibition is curated by Renaissance historian Bill Sherman (his excellent “John Dee: the Politics of Reading and Writing in the English Renaissance” sits on the shelf next to me as I type), who will be giving a ‘public panel’ discussion with Rene Zandbergen at 7.30pm on 11th November 2014 to open the exhibition (tickets to the talk at $10/$15 are already on sale).
But… why the Folger, why Washington, why the Voynich Manuscript? The answer is simple: what links all the parts of the exhibition is the famous Washington-based code-breaker William F. Friedman. From his early days working on Baconian claims at Colonel George Fabyan’s “Riverbank” complex, to his Index of Coincidence, to his work breaking the Japanese “Purple” code, and right through to his long-standing interest in the Voynich Manuscript, Friedman was a fascinating and complex character.
Hence anyone wanting to get the most out of the exhibition should probably prepare themselves with a second-hand copy of Ronald W. Clark’s (1977) “The Man Who Broke Purple”, a biography of William Friedman. It’s not the whole story (government codebreaker stories rarely are), and it skirts unsubtly around Friedman’s depression and related problems during WW2: but even so, it’s far from a bare-bones sketch, with plenty of meat for interested readers to sink their teeth into.
Do I wish I had got the public panel gig with Bill and Rene? Of course I do, I’m only human. But it turns out that even though this is all fascinating news in its own right, there’s much, much more afoot to do with the Voynich Manuscript that is planned to be played out during the remainder of 2014. So, much as I applaud the Folger’s exhibition’s honouring and celebrating the man who (very probably) was the greatest code-breaker of all time, this is in many ways merely the antipasto for a very much larger cryptological feast that is approaching…
…but more on that as it happens. Don’t say I don’t spoil you. 🙂
You might spoil us, but I wish you would *spoiler* us more. You’ve mentioned upcoming developments on the VMs a few times now and I’m keen to know more (naturally). I can only guess that it isn’t a solution else it would have been bigger news, and that it is cryptologic rather than linguistic else you wouldn’t be so excited.
I just hope that this irreplaceable artifact won’t be damaged!
Dear Nick I really hope you’ll find time to summarize the reddit AMA about Tamam Shud.
Way back when I first encountered your blog, I cautioned you about D’Imperio’s derelict publication. I knew, then, that if US and British code breakers were having nervous breakdowns (Friedman, anyway) over this ‘cryptic’ manuscript, some serious pressure was being imposed upon them. Do you think anything new will be revealed?
Is there anyway that some of your regular correspondents could chip in (by buying copies of your book) so you could attend the opening, in person? Perhaps Rene is going to keep you informed? Has anyone (P. Zyatz?) given you new news preliminary to this upcoming event?
Being somewhat compulsive (ahem!), I scrutinized the photo at the top of this discussion. Note the lack of ‘v’ ‘w’ ‘x’ ‘y’ on that illustrated wheel.
wutsup?
😉
Several months ago, I promised to buy your book(s) Voynich I and II as a set — if you autographed them and sold them from your Compelling Press. I’m still holding to that promise. Please, don’t let Kaizo…..divert you from this page of discussion.
I am doing my best to tone down my seemingly cynical remarks. No cynicism intended — honest!
🙂
Just noticed that J and K are also missing from the wheel displayed at the top of this discussion. ????
bdid1dr: Friedman was far, far more troubled by war than by the Voynich Manuscript. And I think that’s only reasonable.
Wow! Really looking forward to the exhibition now. Based on past displays [for instance, of the grimoire that Dan Harms is publishing an edition of], I suspect they’ll have the Mss open to a selected folio, with facsimiles of several other pages. For those who haven’t see the thing itself, a not to be missed chance to see the Mss first hand (although the Yale scans make that much less necessary that back in the days of the BW microfilm…) The Folger exhibitions are always worth a look if you’re in the DC area (the current one is on heraldry). I’ll have to make a point of going to the opening so I can put a face to Rene after all these years on the mailing list.
Dennis: I hope it won’t be stolen National Treasure-style either! 😛
Mr. Kluge, if you go, is it likely you will be searched or told to check in any camera/or other recording device? Has there been any mention of the possibility of illustrated booklets being sold at the door?
My computer and printer are so elderly that I can no longer download and print out color photos of the B-408’s contents. So, online scrutiny, and then print out the discussions and translate them. Fun!
Nick, give my regards to Rene. Thanx!
What a strange turn of circumstance. The VMs should have been at the heraldry exhibit. Then we could find out how long it takes for a group of heraldry boffins to discover and correctly identify the fish scaled, armorial patterns in the VMs. Not to mention finding how they fit into the pun. Without any hints.
So the VMs now shows up at the decoding exhibit. Is it to be decoded or as an example of an enigma that is still unexplained?
Does the page from ‘LIBER SECVNDVS’ come from the exhibit? The illustration shows a certain sort of cipher disk set up that was used during that time. The use of symbols that look so much more like symbols than letters produces a written text that hardly looks like a language. It looks like a code. And it is a simple substitution code, but with three different letters all represented by the symbol ‘o’ to throw off a frequency analysis.
Which will it be that is more useful in understanding the nature of the VMs? A knowledge of the not so mysterious, medieval codes or the recognition of historical, medieval heraldry in the VMs White Aries illustration??
Out*of*the*Blue: the “Liber Secundus” page comes from Giambattista della Porta’s (1563) “De Furtivis Literarum Notis”, a book anyone with a passing interest in Renaissance cryptography and steganography would do well to read.
Hi Nick,
My question was whether the della Porta image was something already connected with the exhibit OR whether the connection was one that you made in you commentary? It could have been clearer.
I’ve read about Alberti’s use of cipher disks and found him interesting, but the general opinion seems to be that if the VMs employed medieval cipher techniques, the investigation would be long over.
Out*of*the*Blue: it’s the central image the organizers chose for publicity, and is taken from one of the key set of Renaissance books on cryptography that forms the backbone of their upcoming exhibition.
Also: if the VMs had used medieval cipher tchniques, it would have been cracked in a day; and if it had used something close to Alberti’s polyalphabetic system, it also would have been cracked a long time ago. But it uses… something else again. It’s a Renaissance cipher, a cunning step sideways from what we are expecting. 🙂
Nick,
So first I want to object (in jest) to the unwarranted assumption that the VMs author has taken only ONE step sideways. It is certainly more complex than that.
An optical illusion has been created by using a standard heraldic pattern and introducing it into a radially oriented diagram unchanged. Intentional obfuscation part one. The radial orientation is designed to predominate visually, but the alternative interpretation is still there. This is a place where the author has side-stepped us. S/He has chosen to use the secondary interpretation to convey intention, to carry a disguised signal. And with the red galero and several positional confirmations, this has affirmed the historical identities of two figures found on White Aries. The VMs representations may seem like cartoons in hiding, but that does not invalidate their identity. The papelonny pun requires a thorough knowledge of heraldry. And this presence in the text would seem to constitute an irrefutable proof of intention and identity. This also seems to be some sort of additional side-stepping, where a reader, unfamiliar with the proper identity and terminology relevant to the presence of the papelonny images, remains completely ignorant of the author’s intent. It is a concept that remains beyond the grasp, or if it is grasped, it alters the perspective completely.
There is heraldry in the VMs. It may appear to be vague and inconsequential, but that is because the reader’s knowledge begins at a state that is more superficial – until the discovery of the papelonny. Heraldry should be part of the VMs investigation not simply based on its presence in the text. The whole of this complex construction exists as a confirmation of the author’s intent to use this historical form of identification in a skillfully disguised and carefully verified fashion. And I hope that some part of VMs research will attempt to investigate further into the author’s idiosyncratic intentions as they continue from here.
bdid1dr: Don’t know if there will be unusual security for this. A few years ago they started allowing non-flash photography in their exhibitions. The way they normally handle loan items [and it’s probably useful to remind folks that from the perspective of the rest of the world, the VMs is probably not the most valuable loaned item they’ve displayed] is a “no photos” icon on the label for the item, with the guards/docents keeping an eye on things.
Out*of*the*Blue: I didn’t say how big a step sideways, did I? 😉
So, would cell-phone image ‘capturing’ be allowed? Perhaps a person using a cell-phone as a vocal recording device as well as captioning might be allowed? If so, I imagine the security guards would be passing people into the gallery several at a time — and would set a time limit for each group’s visit.
Paparazzi?
😉
Nick,
No, you didn’t say how big. But size is relative. If it is a small sidestep, it would be seen as an easy solution. And if it is one giant leap, then it is so difficult as to be insoluble, I suppose, or nearly so. But the original matter does not concern the size of the side-step, but their number. In this case whether the hypothetical sidesteps are single or multiple. And this implies that the solution to the VMs is either found in some exotic, totally flabbergasting, single-step conversion* or by some multi-step process that potentially has a substantive trail to follow. And in White Aries there is a trail that is based on the author’s intentional representations of certain historical persons and events. These elements all combine to form a complex construction, based on heraldry, that can only be intentionally created.
If I had not sustained my interest in VMs heraldry more than five years, and still come back to VMs heraldry again, I would not have made this recent discovery of the existence of papelonny in the zodiac illustrations.
* Is it even possible for an exotic, totally flabbergasting, single-step conversion to exist? Aren’t all single step processes reduced to being substitutions?
OOTB:
“Aren’t all single step processes reduced to being substitutions?”
No – you can have single step transpositions too, and I’m not sure how one would classify an “after every vowel add the first two letters of the previous word as nulls” instruction.
As far as exotic and totally flabbergasting goes, a short message in a book cipher is a one-step process which is very simple to create but very difficult to crack. (Not that I think that’s what we have here, necessarily).
“And this implies that the solution to the VMs is either found in some exotic, totally flabbergasting, single-step conversion* or by some multi-step process that potentially has a substantive trail to follow.”
There are lots of assumptions implicit in this statement concerning the nature of the object and how it was produced. I don’t want to get picky, and besides I have to think of poor BD’s blood pressure if she sees us “going round and round” yet again, but one immediate question would be whether any heraldry in the VMs was copied from one or more earlier source(s) or consciously put there de novo by its author(s)/compiler(s). I don’t see how one can tell…
Your observations about heraldry are interesting, although I’m not competent to form a view as to whether they’re right. I’ve also seen another regular poster here argue consistently, and clearly from a position of knowledge, against a European origin for the imagery in this thing. I don’t really know what I think about that, either.
If I wanted to get metaphysical I’d suggest that everyone who looks at the VMs sees only their own opinions and preconceptions reflected in it, but it’s a bit early in the morning for that.
OOTB: I think you’re misunderstanding my point, which is that a very cunning step would take one of the many assumptions about ciphers we rely on and turn it on its head. Hence such a step doesn’t need to be phenomonally clever, just very cunning. 🙂
Nick:
“a very cunning step would take one of the many assumptions about ciphers we rely on and turn it on its head.”
Example?
SirHubert: fine-grained transposition (e.g. syllabic); shorthand tropes applied unexpectedly; even the kind of perverse polyglottism that Levitov claimed to have detected; these are all examples.
But it’s the stuff we can’t see that we rely on that will fool us more completely… 🙂
SirHubert & Sir Nick,
Thanks for the comments and pointers. Guess I had better leave encryption to the experts before I get on past my ankle.
SirHubert,
There are half a dozen separate elements involved in the heraldic representations on White Aries and only two of them have to do with identification by armorial insignia. While the potential identification is definitely favored by the presence of recognition, you are certainly competent to see what has been done in this illustration. Certainly there is an extensive historical period, before and after the parchment dates, where there is a sizable set of individuals familiar with Roman Catholic church history and also well versed in heraldry, who would know the realities involved, Any of these individuals, with access to the VMs, has a chance to recognize the elements used by the author in the White Aries illustration and make the historical identification on the basis of what is found in that representation.
The White Aries representation is clear on the page and the relevant details of persons and events are part of the historical record. Then metaphysically speaking, I am either seeing what I want to see or I am finding an innate, historical interpretation for these six intentionally chosen, representational elements. The papelonny is not there because I have pointed it out. It is there because it has been built into the text.
The elements are not only substantive on their own, but these are not just six elements referring to six independent facts. These are six independent elements which all substantiate the same historical situation. It is because of the complexity of the construction, cleverly concealed on the page, that intentional creation is revealed. This is a path that should be more seriously considered.
Nick,
I do think I get what you were saying. To paraphrase: it need not be an elaborate or complex technique when something highly idiosyncratic would do as well. But how could we know that the author has limited his tricks to just the one? How would the use of a hidden text work in an example where various lines of text are scattered across several locations? No one can analyze something that hasn’t been found. So it would have to be considered highly effective. Is it cunning enough?? How about supposing that it was intended that this hidden text could be reconstructed? Heraldry validates the markers that identify the lines of text. How do these lines of text fit together?
Nick, one more item which ‘nicks’ my bump of curiousity: Why would Secundus portray the ‘Z’ backwards?
bd
Out*of*the*Blue: crypto-heraldry is an interesting line of enquiry, but the text is where the overwhelming bulk of the encryption seems to be happening.
Nick,
May I offer a slightly different view? The text is where the overwhelming bulk of encrypted material seems to be located. I’m not sure how encryption, per se, can be quantified. If there is more than one encryption present, how can that be determined? If there were two encryption systems, the more difficult one might be preferred. And the easier system given limited use where it might be disguised, hidden or divided up. It certainly seems a reasonable way to go about things if that is what one intended to do.
VMs heraldry is like fishing in a bucket, which, despite its small size, has produced some highly unexpected results. And, while historical investigation reveals the additional confirmations, the real point of research here is the author’s purpose for this construction. And as seen in the White Aries illustration, the outer armorial insignia is directly connected to the inner example of a patterned text marker in a circular band of text. Is there less encryption here than in some other line of text? Or perhaps a different type of encryption? (I don’t know how you read pictographs, but a direct connection to an intentional construction has a higher probability of being a direct and intentional connection in my book.)
If there is meaning in an encrypted VMs text, and heraldry is part of the key, then two possibilities exist. Undisguised heraldry in the VMs simply says, ” Hey, everybody, the key is right here.” While disguised heraldry, used to designate the pope’s keys, seems like quite the cunning and highly effective step sideways. As a result, the encryption key cannot be accessed without going through the historical identification first, as the author intended. It’s certainly not a very sophisticated technique at this point, but definitely rather idiosyncratic. It would also seem to be less likely to be as anachronistic as the proposed use of more complex, modern encryption techniques to create a medieval manuscript or, conversely, pulling the date of VMs creation forward several centuries beyond the parchment dates for encryption purposes.
The more I’ve thought about it, this scenario seems to fit your suggestions quite well. This is not a sophisticated encryption technique of any kind. Physical separation is what it is, a cunning endeavor, a tricky sidestep. It certainly stops decryption dead – until the separate parts of the text can be identified and correctly recombined. The Genoese Gambit, as a complex combination of independent, design elements, certainly has the potential to identify the intended parts of hidden text. Leaving a potentially much more difficult task, which is the reconstruction.
Nick, I think I can answer my own question (after mulling it over); the backward Z is probably indicating to the reader/decryptioner to reverse the direction of the individual characters of any word while using this particular wheel. Example: elpmaxe
Just because I’m a ‘southpaw’ doesn’t necessarily indicate that I read anything backwards.
😉
I think it unfortunate that so many people begin their history of the Voynich manuscript with Friedman. His premises and assumptions bear so little connection to the earlier and well-qualified (as well as relatively disinterested) opinions that I tend to regard all later work less as a product of the internal evidence provided by the manuscript than as a series of efforts to prove some aspect of his own, rather narrow, expectations.
In particular, Friedman met the opinions which associated the work with England and/or Spain, and the Jews with an attitude which reads now in the spectrum between blank indifference and overt hostility. One of the greatest evaluators of imagery in his day had said, prior to being confronted with Col. Friedman’s utterly inane and insensitive ‘questionnaire’ that he (the art historian) believed the work Jewish and its manufacture from ‘Spain or somewhere southern’. I agree, as it happens, but then these days we have far more by way of historical information and comparative documents.
If I were absolutely put on the spot, I’d probably attribute the oldest original *content* to works of the Hellenistic era produced about the region of modern Afghanistan, attribute their transmission and elaboration to the eastern merchants between the early centuries AD and the twelfth century or so, and introduction into the west first through those eastern Jewish people driven west by the advance of Islam and then the arrival of the Portuguese. The parchment is finished in the style we find in Spain and in England, not the German which tends to fully-finished parchment not later than the twelfth century.
Alas, not even the basic distinction between a work’s content and its material form is observed by many Voynicheros, let alone close analysis of either.
Handwriting speaks only to the last version of any work and since we know – well enough – when the Vms was made, even a precise identification of the hand will tell us too little about both the content and any proposed system of encryption. I tend to think it is written, rather in a form of severely abbreviated language, in my opinion very likely filled with technical terms and usage.
For what my opinion is worth… 🙂
Diane: Friedman was a great cryptographer with only relatively minor fame outside the world of codebreaking, and I think an exhibition celebrating his life and works is an abundantly good thing.
He introduced the Voynich Manuscript to many, many people (including Tiltman), and instigated the process of trying to find ways to analyze it with early computers and tabulating machines, a project which continues even today. (Never mind that this has yet to produce fruit… who’s to say that it will never?)
As far as the dating and handwriting goes, I think that people are more receptive to your source/writing differentiation than you think. My position has long been that I see the Voynich Manuscript as a 15th century book of secrets built largely on top of 14th century sources, which – though not as nuanced and broad a position as yours – does make that differentiation explicit.
And yes, svrly bbrvtd lngg sounds about right to me too. But enciphered as well. 😉
Diane,
Could you please advise me about literature (internet) on the Arab history of astrology or more specific the history of the twelve astrological signs ? The background of this question is, that in the VMS lacks Aquarius, but it contains two Tauri (dark and light). I wonder, if one of the Tauri might be an ox. Similarly the so called Capricorn might be a goat. Here again a dark and light Aries.
Menno
Nick, Diane, & all interested: If you are relying on D’Imperio’s booklet, you have been led far astray from any sensible solution to Boenicke manuscript 408.
Yes, it IS a triple-layered language. The manuscript material was most likely manufactured in Spain. The writer would have used his own personal ‘shorthand’ to make brief notes of whatever he was seeing or listening to.
So, I have used Sahagun as a possible ‘source’ of the Vms. There is not a lot written about this monk (not even his own diary), but if you follow up on my references to him, you may find some very interesting historical coincidences in his appearance in South America and the financing/sponsorship of the invasions by Spanish and Portuguese Hapsburg kings and queens — and HRE’s.
I’m now going ‘full-circle’ as to how the Vms/Boenicke ended up in Suleiman’s possession. Next, I’ll be trying to determine if the manuscript was first delivered to the Austrian emperor (Hapsburg) by Busbecq. The Austrian emperor may have subsequently had the manuscripts (and zoo animals and purebred Arabian horses) delivered to Rudolph by Busbecq. I’ve told the rest of the historical story of how the Vms/B408 could have ended up in Father Kircher’s hands. Kircher’s father was a teacher at the monastery (Benedictine?) near the Kircher family’s home. Kircher Jr. eventually ended up as manager of the proselytizing monks who corresponded with him.
Several more centuries, and Mr. Voynich visits Frascati, and the derelict remains of Kircher’s missionary library, with the firm intention of buying as many antique manuscripts as possible.
Y’all have been reading as much as you can find provenance for the manuscript(s) Mr Voynich bought and carried home — and subsequently sold by his widow and the widow’s best friend. That very rich gentleman who donated the Vms to the Boenicke library may have been one of many collectors of rare books and South American tomb relics. A whole enclave of very wealthy antique collectors and dealers were very active in Santa Barbara California (and I think they still are). Very recently, National Geographic has presented the “Wari Tomb”. Actually the word “Wari” is spelled “Huari”.
🙂
Regarding the VMs Zodiac, I’d like to suggest that the reason that Aries has been split is in order to have the Genoese Gambit on the third page of the Zodiac and still have that page referenced to the animal most preferred for celestial sacrifice: the white sheep or goat that is illustrated on White Aries. Otherwise, obviously, if there is no split, then the popes are on page two, not such a good number versus a trinity, or they are cowboys. And we all know that popes are shepherds and not cowboys. The reason Taurus is split is so that Aries is not unique.
As far as Capricorn and Aquarius, the VMs shows that folios were cut from the place where the eleventh and twelfth Zodiac signs would have been expected to be. Speculatively, it is possible that these months may have also been split, but impossible to determine.
It seems to me to be an area, the loss of which, may turn out to be the most significant for VMs investigation. It almost stands to reason that if several things are hidden in the Zodiac, one of them is near the end.
Out*of”the Blue,
Thanks for your reaction. It would be necessary to find other astrologies in the 14th and 15th c. , which confirm your views. Has it been confirmed that the Capricorn and Aquarius pages have been cut and replaced ? The order did not change.
Greetings, Menno
In re Diane’s reference to Friedman’s supposed indifference to what might be Jewish influences in B-408: What do we know of the writings of Sephardic Jews?
How would the writers distinguish between words such as ‘hours’/ours, or horse/hoarse, or eminent/imminent, or amen/amend. or definite/infinite/finite, or in an instant. ….?
Nick, double negatives, yet? Did you think ‘don’t say I don’t spoil you’ wouldn’t pass the scrutiny of my one working eye?
😉
Squinty, but not squirrely!
Menno,
I’m open to discussion, but I don’t quite know what to say. I have proposed the reasons why Aries and Taurus are split into half months in the VMs. I don’t know if any other explanations have been suggested. Also I’ve not seen other examples where months have been split into halves, so I’m not sure if this is unique to the VMs or not. Therefore I don’t think you will find any documents to confirm my views on this topic. I believe specific heraldic identifications and the details of relevant history support my views in general and in papelonny.
Regarding Capricorn and Aquarius, the quire lay out can be found on Rene Zandbergen’s website: voynich dot nu
Some months obviously run in sequence on the same sheet of parchment. And thus the VMs appears to follow a standard, medieval European zodiac sequence, if Capricorn and Aquarius had been placed at the end of the sequence, But nothing can be proven about a missing page. Presumably, the VMs was in it’s final order prior to the various excisions, as I understand it. Or perhaps there are alternative interpretations to investigate.
Out*of*the*Blue,
Leaving from the original quire indication on 72v1 (Libra) and keeping the normal order of the astrological signs (where Pisces precedes Aries, Taurus, etc. ) 71r Light goat and 71v Light ox (?) should be moved to 74r and 74v, which have been reported now as ‘missing’. The original quire indication on 72v1 (Libra) should be preceded by 8 pages instead of 10.
Menno
Dear Menno
I have discussed the animal figures at some length, and with comparative imagery, in another place. I do not find justified by the available evidence the usual assumption that the figures are (or ever were) intended to represent the Greco-Latin sequence of zodiac figures, or that – even if they were meant for month-signs that they meant to represent all twelve of the western series. As so often in writings about this manuscript, one finds that arguments proceed in what is a backwards way from ordinary methods of scholarship: that is, that in the normal way one first examines exhaustively the primary document, then proceeds by comparison with other works of similar antiquity to posit a locus and purpose both for first composition or compilation, and then separately for the item at hand. Only after having done so would one normally attempt to form an hypothesis about less certain matters, such as the intent, meaning or nature of inscriptions whose meaning is impossible as yet to determine.
Voynich studies so often and so signally fails to adhere to such method that one usually finds quite the opposite in recent writings: some creative (not to say novelletish) senario sprung fully formed from the head of an imaginative author, the author then seeking in the labyrinth of history for something or other which may support the plot, while tossing away without notice all other aspects and items of evidence. SInce the very same discarded items may then by lit upon by the man or woman espousing a different imagined scenario for the work, nothing but an endless round of argument, counter-argument and sometimes solicited pseudo-scholarly papers whose worth is about as much as one might expect if a person with a PhD in architecture or geology wrote a work about the finer points of early medieval art … or indeed if a person with a doctorate in early medieval Latin art were to claim any particular expertise in geological science.
The field, frankly, is a mess and a peculiarly shoddy mess considering the time, effort and not-inconsiderable native intelligence wasted.
I suggest that if the subject of astronomical, astrological thought in the Islamic world before 1438 interests you, you might abandon the internet for a while and read the very fine work entitled An Introduction to Islamic Cosmological Doctrines. Published by SUNY.
Cheers
Nick, Diane, & other interested readers:
Right about the time Sahagun (and other monks) were headed for the New World, another ‘diaspora’ was occuring; the expulsion of persons of ‘Jewish’ (Sephardic?) ancestry was being imposed. Apparently, many of them ended up in South America.
Apparently Sephards were multi-lingual (some discreetly so).
Menno,
While such a rearrangement is possible, what is the reason for doing so? Sure it makes twelve months out of the given VMs pages. So then some other part of the ms has been cut out.
That’s fine, now what?
As found in the current order, all the nymphs in tubs are at the beginning (Pisces through Taurus) and the nymphs without tubs follow in the second part. And after examining these pages, there seems to be a fairly strong resemblance to a zodiac sequence, with the number of encircling figures approximately equal to the number of days in a month, which is why it seems to me, when one goes back to look at the pages with only 15 encircling nymphs, and the close similarity of the central drawings that these seem to be pairs of half months in Aries and Taurus, created for whatever reason. There seems to be this thing in the VMs with natural and artificial pairs.
If this sequence of illustrations was not created with some intentional resemblance to the western zodiac, how does it acquire the resemblance it clearly possesses? And I would also ask the same about heraldry.
I realize there is a ‘proper’ method of research if one wishes to be accepted for academic publication. I’ve seen this argument before, but I’m not yet convinced that it is the only way that facts can be discovered. In fact, I would say, that the VMs contains information derived from the author’s thorough knowledge of heraldry and it has passed unrecognized before the eyes of many researchers, past and present, at least in part because of its obscurity.
Demonstration:
In VMs Pisces outer ring of figures, at roughly 11 o’clock, note the tub that has a pattern like fish scales.
In VMs Dark Aries inner ring of figures, at roughly 11 o’clock, note the tub that has a pattern like fish scales.
In VMs White Aries note that the figures, at roughly 11 o’clock in both rings, are the two figures with blue-striped patterns on their tubs, which I have proposed are VMs representations of the Genoese popes, somewhat obfuscated for security reasons.
I have based this identification on the color and pattern of the Fieschi armorial insignia and the historical existence of a pair of 13th century, Roman Catholic popes from this family and the fact that heraldry was a standard method of identification (c. 1200 CE to present). Initially the comparative similarity of the armorial insignia has been obscured by the imposed radial perspective of the illustration and becomes clearer if the influences of this optical illusion are removed.
The subjective interpretation of armorial heraldry is further enhanced by the presence of a bit of ecclesiastical heraldry, specifically the red galero on the head of one of the figures under investigation. These two heraldic elements, armorial and ecclesiastical, from the VMs, subjective or whatever, produce a Venn diagram with a single and unique historical interpretation.
Further investigation into this prospective identification reveals the proper hierarchical placement of the two figures in the celestial spheres . Placement is an objective fact, not a subjective interpretation. Favored heraldic placement of the figures is another objective fact. The choice of White Aries rather than randomly going to Scorpio or wherever, is based on ancient, sacrificial tradition, as part of the religious content of the illustration.
On the basis of the above correspondence of the VMs illustration with historical facts, I have proposed the identification of the Fieschi popes. While I’ve not covered all details here, I am not aware of any heraldic data on these zodiac pages that I have intentionally omitted. And the means of identification cited are clearly in the VMs illustration, no squinting required.
So what do fish scales have to do with papal heraldry,
given that in a reasonable frame of measurement these two patterns are found in the same relative positions as the two blue-striped patterns under investigation?
In heraldry, as it happens, somewhat obscurely for various reasons, the fish scale pattern is called papelonny. And in light of the placement of these of these elements it seems at least somewhat curious that pape is the French word for pope. It is almost as though the papal heraldry of White Aries has been labelled by the papelonny heraldry of the immediately preceding pages. It looks and functions like a great heraldic pun, but, of course heralds don’t pun; they cant.
Accidental occurrence is hardly a serious explanation for this complex construction. All the elements combine to confirm a single explanation. The signs are in the illustrations. If they are known to the reader, they can be identified and examined. If they are unknown to the reader, then the reader remains oblivious to them. This is heraldry interpreted according to medieval heraldry in historically specific and somewhat obscure detail. And it appears to have been hidden from all of us and hidden right in front of us until I introduced the term papelonny to the VMs discussion a few months back.
Hi Diane,
You took a long road till you came at the end, where you advised me about the Introduction to Islamic Cosmological Doctrines, published by Suny. Thanks for that. I’ll try to find the book.
As for your long introduction. sure, Voynich research is not the exclusive domain of scientists and that gives a lot of noise. On the other hand scientists so far have not been able to identify the language, the script, the designs, etc., thus leaving the VMS for speculation.
My recent research of the VMS deals with the astrology section of the VMS, because it is a small portion of only twelve pages and its contents are well known and have been described extensively by bisshop Isidor of Sevilla in his Etymologiae (7th century). Isidor of Sevilla had a tremendous influence on science in Spain, Italy and the rest of Europe, even England. Wikipedia writes, that the difference between astronomy and astrology came only after the middle ages, but Isidor of Sevilla already made the difference between astronomy (science) and astrology (superstition). In fact every aspect of the VMS can be retrieved in the works of Isidor of Sevilla, who organized the science of his time and placed it in a Jewish-Christian tradition, e.g. the tripartite division of the world as is shown in T-O maps, based on Sem, Cham and Japeth.
Greetings, Menno
Diane,,
The book is as E-book online available. Thanks.
Menno
Out*of*the*Blue,
I think, the first thing a researches should do, is to specify the object of his or her research, in this case the folio’s dealing with astrology in the VMS. In this case the researcher notices, that in the twelve signs the sign of Aquarius is missing, whereas there are two Taurus signs (dark en white). I understand, that you do not think it’s important as long there are twelve signs. I cannot agree less, because the order of the astrological signs may effect their interpretation. The first thing should be to put the signs in the right order. The second thing would be to find out, where and when the Taurus (light) sign existed, because that might give information about the date and place, where the astrological pages have been designed and the script has been used.. From the Etymologiae of Isidor of Sevilla (7th c.) I learn, that some other signs were used in the context of the zodiac. He includes Arctos, de Polar star (the word is related to ant-arctica), but gives several other names as well. So far I have not yet met a double Taurus sign (light and dark). I only know, that the ox sign found its way to the Chinese astrology, which is related to the Babylonian astrology. It is also known, that the Arab influence came to Europe through Sicily on the one hand and through Spain on the other hand. Because Isidor of Sevilla (Spain) does not mention a double Taurus (dark and white), I guess, that the Arab astrology entered Europe through Sicily and Rome, spreading to the north.
Only then I come to your idea, that the different patterns on the vessels may reflect heraldry, but I cannot find a good reason, why some have standing vessels, some lying vessels and some none. I’d like to hear your opinon.
Greetings, Menno
Nick, is there room on these pages to discuss the forced migrations of Sephards and or Conversos? When I read that the expulsions began in 1492 (‘Columbus sailed the ocean blue….’ and all that) I almost fell out of my chair. Coincidence or documented history?
Is it likely that many suspected Jews and/or Conversos still had to prove their religious orientation and ancestral origins?
bd
BD: 1492 was also the year in which the last Muslim state in Spain finally fell, and it was this and its aftermath that led to the Jewish migrations/expulsions. Columbus’s voyage happened to take place in the same year, but I don’t think correlation implies causation in this case!
Dear Menno,
Unless memory fails, I was the first person to introduce the Etymologiae to the world of Voynicheros. As I recall, I did so while discussing the one ‘tripartite world’ motif on f.86v, and showed how the three faces including one which was unmistakeably Asiatic. I posited therefore that this was not an original, or intrinsic part of the whole, since it clearly does not make a tripartite world of the full map (i.e. folio 86v).
Nonetheless, I am happy to see that at least one Voynichero now know Isidore of Seville’s encyclopaedia, without which it is sometimes difficult to follow the thought behind medieval European writings and art.
I am also glad to learn it is available online, though I still have the printed copy which I cited at the time.
Perhaps you might care to revisit some of my analysis of the manuscript which you can find in some old blog of mine.
Cheers
Dear Diane,
Unfortunately I do not know where to find your blog(s). As for Isidor of Sevilla the full text of Etymologiae (in Latin) is on my website under the chapter Isidor of Sevilla. So far I have used the Etymologiae for my work on ancient geography, mappae mundi and T-O maps. He gives also an excellent survey of herbals, which must be important for those, who investigate the herbal section of the VMS. And now I deal with his chapters on astronomy and astrology.
As far as the astrology section of the VMS is concerned, I think I may have identified the crowned individual on f72v1 (Libra) as S. Justina of Padua (martyr’s crown), who is celebrated October 7th.
Greetings, Menno
Menno,
As you said off the top, first to specify the area of interest. Absolutely, mine is heraldry in the VMs. As such it is confined to the first three pages of the zodiac section in its current arrangement. And the VMs imposes a very strict limit on the extent of heraldry that is relevant to what is actually in the illustrations: some basic information on geometric patterns found in the heraldic ordinaries and sub-ordinaries etc., the methods of tincture designation and so on. The very few historical identifications are a separate topic of discussion. The author’s representations appear competent for the most part, some half-way competent or sloppy, and a few incompetent or unable to be sensibly interpreted (at least by me). But as the papelonny confirmation shows us, we can only interpret what we know. So, after five years of fiddledee-ditzing with VMs heraldry, I can see it now. The papelonny construction also involves all three of the first three VMs zodiac pages functioning together.
In my current understanding, the tubs in the inner circle of VMs Pisces do not connect to the heraldry investigation. Just as there is very little in the overall heraldic content of the VMs that has any historical connections. And even then the primary historical reference is disguised in the optical illusion of radial orientation. Thus only a small bit of VMs heraldry is relevant to this identification, and the rest is either filler, distraction or part of a subtle plan to encourage the reader to further investigation.
And in that investigation, given the nature of the illustrations, how can the relevant and irrelevant be separated? What differentiates between an ambiguous bit of filler and a significant representation that has been deliberately disguised? My answer is the presence of supplementary confirmations from the VMs that correspond to a known reality. And the examples I’ve discovered include armorial heraldry, ecclesiastical heraldry, hierarchical placement, heraldic positioning, historical, sacrificial preferences and now the papelonny designs as virtual labels for the heraldic representations. It doesn’t require a perfect artistic illustration to convey the intended meaning.
Nick, something puzzling appeared on my monitor’s left corner: a green tab which has writing ‘test my site’s ssl’ . Is this a legitimate item or an ‘invasion’ of some kind. I’m not going there until we get the ‘all clear’ from you. I enjoy corresponding with some very intelligent people on your site. I hope that green means ‘all systems go’.
bdid1dr
bdid1dr: it was just a WordPress plugin I briefly enabled this afternoon to test a specific technical feature. It’s disabled now (it was harmless anyway) so no need to be concerned, but thanks for letting me know it was there. 🙂
Out*of*the*Blue,
I think heraldry is a good item for further investigation. I just wonder , if the vessels do not represent the towns, from which the depicted individuals originate. The vessels indeed could represent towers. I have seen many examples thereof. Especially in the middleages heraldry plays an important role for the identification of towns as do the swallowtail ramparts in northern Italy.
Greetings, Menno
OOTB:
“The author’s representations appear competent for the most part, some half-way competent or sloppy, and a few incompetent or unable to be sensibly interpreted (at least by me).”
I’m going to pick you up on the word “author”. Do you mean:
i) the person who actually penned (wrote de novo or copied) the manuscript,
ii) the person or people who selected and/or edited the content from the works of other writers (e.g. Xiphilinus, epitomator of Dio Cassius),
iii) or the person or people who produced the original content in the first place (i.e. Dio Cassius, who wrote his History as an original work)?
Clarifying this may once again raise BD’s blood pressure slightly, but I’m hoping it will lower Diane’s accordingly. And it’s important.
Oh, and do we necessarily assume that the author and illustrator have always been the same person at all stages of transmission?
Menno,
There is no reason that towns are eliminated. There just needs to be an example cited. Problem is that, in much of heraldry, the insignia have charges, something more pictorial or a figurative image used in the insignia. Relatively fewer examples of plain, geometric pattens are in use. And the contents of the VMs design repertoire are basically all plain, geometric patterns. So this decreases the probability of finding any potential correspondences. Try to find an example in the VMs for which you can write a valid blazon.
A heraldic insignia is a combination of pattern and color or tincture. And there seem to be some questions about the methods used to designate tinctures both in the VMs and from the historical perspective. If one simply assumes that standard hatching techniques are being used, then it needs to be noted that the Petra Sancta system was starting in the 1630s and there are other problems. So before proposing a match with any city or surname, there needs to be a clear definition of what examples the text provides.
Looking at the painted examples, I found the all blue insignia potentially connected to Berrington of Chester.
A blue and white paly has a German connection, but a bendy sinister led to nothing. A regular blue and white or white and blue bendy, as a single insignia, has a number of potential interpretations. That is why the paring is essential because it represents the historical pair of Genoese popes. And incidentally they are the only popes with a heraldic insignia that conforms to the use of a geometric pattern only that I know of. The others all have a greater complexity of design that would simply be impossible to disguise without the loss of identity. And that also applies to cities.
Out*of*the*Blue,
Did you categorize the different ornamental patterns on the so called vessels ?. How many different patterns did you identify and how are they distributed over the four months, whch show vessels ? Could you please list them for us ?
Greetings, Menno
Well, Nick, I’m going to pick up where I left off several months ago. Somewhere in B-408 there should appear banana palms, sago palms (starch), Coconut palms (milk & fiber), yucca (for its ‘soapy’ roots and ‘dates’), agave ( for ‘tequila’?) or for rope?, and not least but very important, the mulberry trees and fig trees which bark was was beaten and processed into paper upon which various monk/scholars wrote their passing of days, and their educational efforts. Probably some of their correspondence with “The Boss” was written on ‘amatl’.
My other source of very interesting history is a small book with translation and commentary by William Gates. Mr. Gates prefaces his publication with reference to Pope John Paul II’s pastoral visit to Mexico, in May of 1990. Some thirty-odd prefatory pages discuss the return of the ‘paper/amatl’ manuscript but mentions the ‘Nahuatl’ manuscript ‘not now extant’…..
There are several mixed-up translations/identifications of the botanical specimens but the illustrations are identified and cross-referenced to make ‘recipes’ or ‘prescriptions’ with the various illustrations and commentaries for each.
So, when I “draw a blank” on a particular item of discussion, I reach for :
‘An Aztec Herbal – The Classic Codex of 1552-William Gates’
“Nahuatl-English/English-Nahuatl (Aztec)” – Fermin Herrera
I’m still convinced that B-408 is the missing parchment notes for what was to be a huge ‘encyclopedia’ of “South American life for Europeans as well as the ‘Natives’
We’ll see if anything interesting evolves from the latest display of B-408. Certainly you’ll be keeping us posted, Nick?
I may be visiting those several pages of un-illustrated paragraphs which all seem to be expanded discussion of various aspects of the Vms. We’ll see!
🙂
Menno,
Are you asking, did I tabulate the various pattern types? Only partially. There is one example of a chevron in Pisces that is interesting and actually a triple chevron almost. There are the two examples of papelonny and other examples of the paly, barry and bendy (both), but when it comes to the semy of roundels, it starts to get a bit more questionable, especially if viewed out of context. If there is a disguised historical identification to be found here, then part of hiding the needle in a haystack also requires a haystack. This stuff that looks somewhat like heraldry, more or less, is where the real heraldry was hidden.
Out*of*the*Blue,
I’ll give it a try myself. It will take a few days, I guess.
Greetings, Menno
Oh well, a little more from me in re another of our decoding heroes: Brigadier General J. H. Tiltman and DOCID 631091. Two “Voynich” folios which he was unable to decode:
Folio 33v: I identified this folio’s specimen as being Scabiosa Caucasica. Every line of the script identifies the use of the plant for ridding animals of mange, and humans of scalp infection.
Folio 49v: Persian/Turban Ranunculus (line 7) translates to the latin ranun-quoll-ece-aes-an-aesox. Line 8 of this same folio translates to: Especies ce-ce-o-aes-tl-c__e-c-oaes ex—-(by the time I reached page three of my translation, I was pretty much convinced of the identification. I was also having strong pangs of sympathey for Tiltman and fellow decoders!
🙂
Dear Diane,
In my last message to you I wrote, that I might have identified the crowned figure on f72v1 as St. Justina of Padua. (martyr). The VMS shows a second crowned individual on f72r3, July, 28th, when St. Parasceva of Rome is celebrated. She was a martyr too. Two crowns, two martyrs. I can hardly believe, that this is coincidental.
Greetings, Menno
Menno, have you done any following up on my translations (some twenty and counting)? Not all of them are botanical. Some discuss the use of tree bark (white strangler fig and/or mulberry) for making paper. On other discussions of other uses for the mulberry tree (the chopped leaves for silkworm food) I’ve also offered a full translation. I’ve also identified and offered translations for uses of the yucca, plantain, tomatillo/tomato, scabiosa Caucasica, dianthus, Turban ranunculus, and one specimen which seems to be the most boggling (but was my first ID) the squash blossom (f-15v).
It is only in the last few months that I have had the opportunity to refer to two publications which have enabled my translations. Both books begin with references to a manuscript being ‘no longer extant’, and references to Badiano, De la Cruz, and Sahagun. Both books also refer pictographs and accompanying discussion written in the native language (as encouraged by colonizing priests and monks).
I agree that ‘provenance’ is important for attempting to understand or comprehend which language is being spoken or written. I also understand there may be some religiously controversial material in B-408. So, that is my primary concern when reading and translating the contents of B-408.
But, I have teased Nick as far as a maxim my parents and grandparents spoke: “No discussion of religion or politics at the dining table.”
It is quite pleasant to be able to discuss just about ‘anything’ on Nick’s blog. I just hope my contributions aren’t making him fall asleep over his key-board!
Gentlepersons,
Yesterday I visited my favorite second-hand bookstore; for seven dollars I purchased William H. Prescott’s “History of the Conquest of Mexico & History of the Conquest of Peru”. Weighty stuff; nearly 3 pounds to carry to my car, then up a flight of 15 steps to my front porch glider-couch.
So, when I finish reading the ‘heavy’ stuff and can follow up on his references to Boturini, Bustamente, Clavigero, Gama, and Heeren (to name a few), I will be following up on his index references to Sahagun’s “Historia de Nueva Espana, Lib VI, Cap. XIX: Advice of an Aztec Mother to Her Daughter. Prescott presents an English translation of this excerpt from Sahagun’s tremendous work.
More and more, I am seeing references to the “now extant’ missing manuscript, which may be one and the same that ended up being donated to the Boenicke Library; and given Boenicke’s manuscript number 408. So, now I’m starting at the beginning of some 1,288 pages of documented South American history.
😉
bdid1dr,
Let us keep it clean. The VMS originates from Northern Italy (Miland, Pavia, Padua, Bologna or the Alpine region). There is no connection with Southern America, Aztecs or Mexico or whatever. If you study the plants, you should read Isidor of Sevilla”s Etymologiae (7th century), who had a tremendous influence on science in Western Europe for many centuries ahead. Even Linnaeus. Isidor systemized plants and herbs, known in this part of the world., including medical herbs and plants. There is a good chance to trace them back in the VMS, if you follow his systematic order. I am not a botanist, but a linguïst. My main concerns are language and script.
Greetings, Menno
Well, Menno, how much translation of the written material in B-408 have you accomplished? My translations are irregardless of ‘who’ wrote the manuscript which I insist on calling B-408 (aka ‘The Voynich’).
Also, I focus on the syllables which form Latin words. So, am I wrong in assuming that it is the script which usually leaves viewers in a state of puzzlement? If that is the case, I’m ready to lay out (for the third or fourth time, Nick?) my syllabification of B-408’s handwritten script.
For his time, and for the period of European invasions of South America, Cuba, & Hispaniola, William H. Prescott’s encyclopedic book “History of the Conquest of Mexico & History of the Conquest of Peru” is doing a pretty good job of filling in the blanks which appear (in between various folios) in B-408.
beady-eyed wonderer
🙂
bdid1dr,
I would be interested in your translation of the short texts given between the circles of the astronomical section. I must admit, that I cannot yet translate these texts.
Greetings, Menno
Menno, having already translated the contents of B-408 f83v and B-408 f-86v, and submitted the translations to Nick’s blog, I feel that I’ve done all I can to validate my translations of some fifteen other folios of B-408. Sir Hubert has been closely following my discussions, and he keeps my moods steady with his tongue-in-cheek, and most kind, comments.
Most of all, our host allows for considerable, lengthy discussions — so long as they don’t get too quarrelsome.
Sir Hubert, have I been able to convince you that I MAY be on to something?
ps: I take a half-teaspoon of psyllium seed husk with my meals, now: B-408 f 16r, Plantago ovata, isabgol.
😉
On second thought, Menno, give me the folio numbers to which you refer, and I’ll see what I can do (I sometimes have difficulty downloading print-outs from Boenicke’s wonderful manuscript library). Even when I’m successful with the download, my printer goes ‘dry’ midstream.
Terminology: astrology or astronomy, or even mythology?
🙂
Menno & all,
I took a look at the first circular folio which appears on Boenicke’s folio-by-folio search engine. It is not so much a horoscope as it is a diagram of the suitability of the marriage of persons whose families must be ‘suitable’ (nobility issues & wealth-dowry issues being most important).
Only on that one page I’ve looked at, so far, have I seen multiple uses of the symbol which represents the word ending ‘itius’
‘itius’ can be used in such phrases as pro-pi-tiuos.
Just my semi-educated point of ‘view’.
bd
One more thing, I also believe that same syllable can be read as ‘dios’ or ‘deus’ depending on the context of the discussion. So I wonder how the phrase ‘praise god’ would appear. The closing word for most Bible prayers is also interesting: A-men!
bdid1dr,
I can hardly call this a translation. Only some thoughts. What do you do with:
F70v1 Aries (dark)
Outer ring
Takahashi: sheal. dalalody. oteoshey. okoksheo. shokey. raiin. otor. ochy. sais. cheody. cheey. oteoeey. oamr. chcthy. dlal. oteodaiin. ykeody. oteody. sheo. daiin. oteedy. chekalchs. dar. shoteeody. okeeo. dal. cheody. okchoteees. oteeody. cheokeo. otaiin. shes. toar. aly. daly. sheal. daly.
Greetings, Menno
Menno, if you’re happy with the qokeedy dialogues, go for it! Whatever works for you.
bdid1dr Sincerely smiling: 🙂
BTW, my earlier discussion in re plantago psyllium ovata faithfully mis-spelled the latin for is-spha-gul. Nevertheless, the psyllium seed husks were used for making a gell to thicken gravy and or stew. More recent use of the husks is for preventing constipation by adding gel or bulk to the feces. Refer: B-408 f16r
In re ‘Secundus’: I figured out and answered my own questions for some of the ‘missing’ alphabet. However, I just realized that on other of Nick’s “Vms” puzzles, I have discussed the use of a tiny ‘9’ for the Latin alpha-character/sound of ‘x’. So, I can now x-plain why “Secundus” would avoid displaying ‘X’.
🙂
A comparison of the alphabetic letter sequence of this, the Della Porta cipher disk, with Alberti’s shows that both use a 20 character alphabet, but not the same one. Neither of them uses the letters: J, K, U, W and Y. Alberti includes X and omits H. Della Porta includes H and apparently combines X and Z, which are similar in sound.
Dear all,
I was blissfully unaware that the announcement by the Folger had already gone out more than two weeks ago.
I think more news may follow soon, but it is (un)fortunately not my duty to spread the news about it.
I will be in DC already a few days before the event, and would be happy to meet up with any contenders, Karl for a start 🙂
Rene
Dear Nick and Rene,
Let me reassure you that I will NOT be a contender. I will cry heavily on Nick’s shoulder, however, if you aren’t able to pass on to Nick (and all of us) some new views and new news about Boenicke manuscript 408.
beady-eyed wonder 🙂
Dear B.E. Wonder and all,
of course I will share everything that I can, and I trust there will be some interesting news. I would use my own site to present this.
Rene
Nick & Rene, do you know if Paula Zyatz will be a participant at the Folger’s Shakespeare-library event? I’m hoping Diane and Ellie are following the discussion on this page. I will be, anyway!
beady-eyed-wonder (aka: bdid1dr).
😉
(Note the squinty smiley :
beady-eyed.)
I am presently following up a reference in another book which discusses Navajo/Hopi use of Thelesperma megapotanicum, aka as “Navajo/Hopi “Greenthread” which is/was grown along with ‘maize/corn’, squash, and beans.
I’ll keep y/all posted! Ref’s: ‘The Early Human World’, Robertshaw and Rubalcalba, publisher Oxford University Press.
PS: This particular volume of Oxford’s offerings is full of puns and “travelogue language”. I’m now going to read it again from back to front!
bd
I’ll try to bring you up to date with my discussion of f-1v (as far as the difference between a ‘tomatillo’ bush and a ‘tomato’ bush.
B-408, f-1v is illustrating and discussing the to-ma-tl (Aztec word)for the bush which fruit had a papery husk which peeled away as the fruit ripened.The illustration demonstrates CLEARLY the difference between a tomatillo (white, papery husk) bush and a tomato bush. The confused Europeans were even more confused when they later labeled the tomatillo as being the “Chinese lantern” bush.
Even I (me, myself) am probably not coherently presenting the difference between the specimen on f-1v (which I insist is a tomatillo) and the fruit which Columbus introduced to Europe. I’m still searching for discussion of the (supposed) tomato which ‘supposedly’ was turned into spaghetti sauce by the Italians.
On other B-408 folio pages I described the mixed-up coloration of the specimens (cilantro and raddichio) on f-42v. I’ll be returning to f-42v today to finish the translation I started several weeks ago. BTW, I’m also looking for discussion of the cilantro seeds, which are called ‘coriander’.
“Cr-e-n-tl” would be the approximate “Vms” characters used for identification of the seeds.
So, I hope y’all will bear with me (and consider the translation I have presented several weeks/months ago).
🙂
x-tom-a-tl and/or xi-tom-a-tl are other (regional) terms for the husk tomato. Currently there are discussions of several fruits and vegetables which were supposedly brought to Europe by Columbus.
Paula Zyats is certainly involved in the event, though she will not be there on the 11th, to my knowledge.
A coincidence about tomatoes. Just days ago I saw that perhaps the oldest preserved European tomato may be found dried in the so-called ‘En tibi’ herbarium (now in Leiden). This herbal was once owned by Rudolf II and may have at some time been sitting next on the shelf to the Voynich MS.
Rene: you say, ‘This herbal was once owned by Rudolf II and may have at some time been sitting next on the shelf to the Voynich MS’.
… if, of course, there were any evidence whatever that Rudolf had owned the latter. Sorry, perhaps some evidence has turned up since last I tuned in. Certainly there was naught but conjecture supported by airy structures of uncertain imagination back in January.
Rene & Diane,
I reiterate that ‘provenance’ will probably never be firmly established. Part of the difficulties of the provenance for B-408 involves the various means by which its writers communicated with ‘the boss’ (Papal), sponsors (Ferdinand & Isabella), Holy Roman Emperors (Rudolph being one before being institutionalized by his brother.) Shortly after Rudolph was put into seclusion, war broke out across Europe. I sincerely hope we can get past Bacon and his rascally acquaintances as having anything to do with the mislaying of the document which eventually ended up in Kircher’s archives (the small derelict building from which Mr. Voynich purchased some manuscripts).
Not too long after Mr Voynich died and his widow and her friend/secretary gained possession of Mr. V’s collection of books and manuscripts, World War I broke out. The rest of story has already been told/portrayed by the folks at Boenicke.
The point I am trying to make is that while post-WWI & WWII military codiologists were attempting to decode the “Vms”, many universities in South America were corresponding with Papal archivists to arrange the return of several hundred medieval manuscripts to South America. This was accomplished by Pope John II in 1990. What is really sad was the discovery of several hundred medieval manuscripts behind a wall which was being torn down to enlarge the Gregorian University holdings (in 2005?)
So, could it be that the “Folger” and may “Boenicke” may have some surprises for us?
X ur fingers, every 1 !
bd-eyed-wonderer
A statement in a letter from 1665 is evidence, though one can of course speculate back and forth endlessly about its credibility. Without getting anywhere.
In short, that’s why I wrote ‘may’.
And we may still learn more about the MS provenance, I would say.
Rene
This sideshow at the Folger Shakespeare Library mat be revealing. perhaps the Voynich is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing…
xplor: trolls are obviously not a modern phenomenon! =:-o
Surely the Folger Bacon Library in this company?
Well, I sure hope we’ve all not been participating in a circus side-show!
beady-eyed wonder 😉
Would you go to a Library that has a box office?
Doesn’t Shakespeare material belong in England?
How would Richard Burbage feel about the Folger Shakespeare Library ?
Xplor: yes, not necessarily, and who knows?
We had a Scotsman here named Carnegie that tought us that information should be free.
Xplor: we’re perhaps getting off that point, but do by all means try that line next time you try to steal a newspaper 🙂
@ Xplor & SirH:
Every town I’ve lived in since childhood (California) has had a Carnegie library.
Tought? Thought”? Taught?
Maybe we need to revert to latin for our discussions on Nick’s pages?
beady
The newspapers hung on long wooden rods,hard to snatch and run.
No one expects the language police. You say taught .
Oh dear me! This morning I began skimming through a large “coffee table” book, title: ‘Milestones of History’ — “Expanding Horizons”, publisher Newsweek Books, New York.
Pages 122-123 display the beginning of the “Book of Privileges” granted to Columbus by Ferdinand and Isabella. Also portrayed is Columbus’ coat of arms.
They don’t discuss or translate the terms on that first page, but I recognized the script immediately and I offer a rough translation:
“Cartas privilegius Cedulas y otras escrituras and Do Christoforual Colon Almirante Mayor ol’Mar Oceano Viceroy y Governor de las Islas v Tierra Firme”
Pages 111-120 of this same book have illustrations of ‘jousters’ in full armor, clothing in family colors, as well as the horses’ raiment. Each jouster is labelled, but I am unable to read the tiny script (even with my powerful magnifying glass). Commentary for that illustration reads:
“The arms and caparisons of knights from the counties of Suffolk, Essex, and Kent from a roll painted in 1480 by the Clarenceaux King of Arms
Menno, you may be interested in a genealogical chart for Henry VII (Tudor) pages 116, illustration/chart, and explanation at bottom of page 117.
bdid1dr
It appears that Nick has flipped this blog page into his archive. Could it be that he is taking a rest from “Voynich” material until after the Folger exhibit? If so, I’ll be doing some serious reading of the stack of books my husband has been ‘gifting’ me. I look forward to some sound, fully researched, commentary from the folks at Yale, as well as from Nick, Rene, Ootb, Diane, Sir Hubert, the Comegys, and EllieV……..
bd Id 1dr
🙂
I think I’ve identified as fair a set of inscriptions as may serve as crib to the Voynich script.
For that reason (with Nick’s permission) I’ll break my usual habit and refer in Nick’s wordpress blog to my own. See latest post at http://www.voynichimagery.wordpress.com/
Good luck.
PS – if you want to skip the business that lead to the ‘crib’ then just jump to the last illustration and surrounding paragraphs. (Apologies if ads. appear – not my doing!)
Sorry – should have added that the title of that post is ‘Back to folio 67v-i’
Nick, Diane, & all: This is a test to determine if I have to re-register from my new computer. Or if I have to contact Nick on his ‘home’ page (or by snailmail).
BTW, Nick,
Has Paula Z. reported on her Small Books conference?
Diane, I’m still ‘in training’ on how to use my new All in One computer. So, when I’ve got the protocol up to speed with my touch typing on a black keyboard, I’ll be visiting your pages. Maybe this time around, I might be able to reply to your fascinating discussions.
The Folger now has the item list for the exhibition on-line: http://www.folger.edu/template.cfm?cid=4870
Oh, what a terrific list! Now I am attempting to see if the Folger and Boenicke libraries are co-operating in this latest endeavor by digging into their archives for any possibly related material (for example the US Government material for Brigadier General John Tiltman’s efforts).
🙂
Or was the ‘DOCID’ numbered illustrations, from B-408, Tiltman’s British military decoding team? Were British decoders working with Friedman’s US military team? If so, are the Folger exhibits going to include any reference to Tiltman?
bdid1dr
Rene (and Folger folks), can you tell us if Brigadier General John Tiltman was part of the American (US) decoding team? Or were the British-Canadian-Australian military decoders working from their side of the “Pond”?
Still pondering — bdid1dr ‘-)
Not to imply any criticism of Rene Zandbergen, but I do hope that researchers resident in the US and closer to Washington were also on the chat-panel.
I’m wondering if Friedman’s team were ever able to interview our Navajo/Hopi code talkers (WW II). The Hopi Museum exhibits photographs of code-talkers and some relatives of Valjean Joshevema. I believe the Hopi still have a Valjean Joshevema ‘III” active in Hopi affairs. I truly hope so.
bdid1dr
Ellie V. apparently went to the event. Sure ’nuff’ they didn’t allow photography of any kind. Also apparent was the same-ol, same-ol stuff.
There is a book still in print (or at least available from Amazon Books) — ‘The Man Who Broke Purple’. Even in that book, there is little mention of Tiltman’s British team’s cooperation. Was Tiltman’s team working from the London perspective of the Blitz or from the attacks on Alice Springs, Australia?
Hello all,
New scans of the VM are reported to have been made available at Beinecke.
I checked and they are 400 dpi.
(There are links at the bottom to download all scans in a single archive)
I’m not able to post the link since the spam filter consistently blocks posts with URL’s in them. It’s easily found via Google.
Anton: yes, they’ve made these available. But… replacing one (already pretty good) set of scans with another (slightly better) set of scans isn’t hugely newsworthy in my mind. However, other – far more interesting, and hopefully informative – types of scan have also been made, which I’m waiting to hear more about.
I do hope that the library will include a drop-down page bar, or something like the Brit.Lib. layout to shorten time spent scrolling through.
Well, I can understand why the Folger wouldn’t allow photography of any kind. I do wish that SOMEONE at either Folger or Boenicke would have compared some of the contents of B-408 with Friar Sahagun’s enormous manuscript which has been variously called “Badianus” or “Florentine”. For a couple of hundred years, now,
various University professors profess that various sections of the Badianus and Florentine manuscripts are no longer extant.
Well, I’ve found some of those ‘no longer extant’ sections in the so-called “Voynich” manuscript — aka Boenicke 408.
All those wasted hours trying to decode B-408 instead of comparing with manuscripts which were made in “New Spain”. Some of the ‘no longer extant’ pages of the above-mentioned famous manuscripts are bound together and covered with calf skin in Boenicke manuscript 408.
The script was created by Fr. Sahagun for the benefit of the South American native elders so they could read and write in their own language. Also Fr. Sahagun was attempting to translate his manuscript into Latin for the benefit of educated Europeans, as well as for his students and elders who donated so much information to his writings.
🙂
If anyone should be interested in Brigadier General Tiltman’s co-operation with US military codiologists and the British codioliologist at work at Bletchley (?) Park in England, and Friedman’s work in the USA, One can find a sixty-some-odd page document DOCID…….written by John F. Clabby ( with the Center for Cryptologic History) online.
Several of Tiltman’s mimeographed reproductions of several
excerpts from mss B-408 appear on the WWW: Keywords:
Tiltman, Freidman, NSA, Bletchley Park, Turing.
DOCID Turing’s visit to Bell Labs……
I excerpted pages 54 to 64 (last page), so I could refer you herein.
Fascinating!
bdid1dr
DOCID 631091: John Tiltman’s Voynich files:
Scabiosa Caucasica :
Dianthus
Turban Ranunculus
I’ve identified, and have done a full translation of each, of the above-mentioned botanical specimens. Tiltman had discussed them at length but was unable to decode them.
The translation from Nahuatl to Latin/Spanish to English was clear and comprehensible for me.
Apparently Brigadier Tiltman did spend some time with our American NSA (National Security Agency). Perhaps the NSA files could now be brought forth and added to the findings of Boenicke and Folger curators?
bd
Menno – I’ve just seen your notice of identifying two adjacent figures in a month roundel with two days on which martyrs have their feasts.
I think it’s marvellous that you should take such trouble, and would be very glad to know something of your sources. Do the dates co-incide with the current Catholic liturgical calendar, or the Greek, or one of the Protestant ones, and for which epoch?
I tried some time ago to collect and collate the various versions of the western liturgical calendar, with its various revisions etc., but found it difficult to access ‘o.o.p’ versions of the official calendar. Regional differences, and exactly pin-pointing the century or centuries during which a particular roster applied would be hugely helpful.
I suppose that otherwise, the number of days in which a martyr is remembered in the liturgy, divided by (roughly) three hundred and sixty five days would give the odds.
However, with the year beginning at Easter, and the various towns and cities of western Europe differing (by as much as a year) in their calculations of time even during the Renaissance, it struck me as a non-trivial exercise.
Cheers.
What a marvellous idea. At Folger on the 24th inst. there’ll be a gathering (under the aegis of the Obscura Society) which will include “a brief code-cracking workshop”. It will be run by the museums’ curator, Betsy Smoot, and it will be held “in the beautiful Paster Reading Room, normally inaccessible to the general public”.
Hope we get to hear the results of this meeting Obscura in camera. Who knows, they may come out with the Voynich code cracked.
Interesting times!
Such a pity Obscura don’t specify which experts they’ve invited to speak about Renaissance(?!) manuscripts. Late medieval, surely, with a cut-off date of c.1438/40.
Will there be someone from the Bodleian, perhaps. And maybe the British Library.. perhaps someone from the Yale – and wouldn’t I love to hear a curator of the Schøyen Collection speaking about comparative codicology by reference to the Vms.Someone from the Bib. Nat. de Paris, or one of the great German collections. Or perhaps it would be to the point to have someone expert in Spanish and Jewish manuscripts…
My word: to do the subject justice, the experts would probably want to confer together for a week beforehand!
Anyone who goes, do please remember to post something!
should have given the reference
“We will be joined by experts in the field of cryptography and Renaissance-era manuscripts”
Including, it need hardly be said, the Folger’s own expert, Betsy Smoot.
http://www.atlasobscura.com/events/obscura-society-dc-the-voynich-manuscript
Nick, have you read a paper by Stephan Vonfelt? Its online as a pdf
“The strange resonances of the Voynich manuscript”
No historical research in it, nor any clue given to the imagery – the usual stuff recycled, but done with clarity and in formal mode.
However, the statistics which make up most of the paper might contain some new insights, so I thought I’d mention it. Very easy read.
Here’s a brief quote from Vonfelt’s paper:
“Stolfi’s Chinese theory is so revived.”
(don’t you want to italicise that “so”?
Preceding sentences read:
“In the light of its characters, the Voynich manuscript brings out an ordered landscape, alternating dense and sparse surfaces by the effect of correlations. Resonance, significant to a lesser extent for Chinese, is unknown among European languages, which distribute their letters randomly. This long memory phenomenon can be modelled by a fractional random process”.
Yeh-hay.
Diane: I’ll read Vonfelt’s paper and post a blog entry soon, sounds interesting. 🙂
My feeling about the written text, or rather about how people are tackling it, is that there is an assumption of literacy as objective-to-objective. In terms of those times (pre-1450), I’d be thinking more in terms of subjective-objective, but to a given scheme such as Hugh of St.Victor’s ‘arca noe’ .. something like that.
Though if the whole has just been translated into Latin-and-Nahuatl, well we can all move on, or go home, or whatever..
As noted: letters j,k,u,w,x,y
If you count the letters they’re only 20, not 26 according to Latin current
Notably v is probably the letter u. I’ve seen ‘v’ used as ‘u ‘in the justice court systems particularly in stone work carving
Also take interesting note: the Roman numerals around the edge there’s an error. The number four (iiii) and the number fourteen( xiiii ) are wrong( alternate) Roman numeral
Noticed that the centering symbols also repeat the character ‘o’ 3 times at b, I and t