Here’s a guest post by Cipher Mysteries commenter Pat, who has been hot on the trail of Dorothy Jean Robertson in Trove. There are, of course, many different Dorothy Robertsons out there, but Pat thinks these refer to the Dorothy Jean Robertson who married Carl Webb (the Somerton Man).
So… here we go!
Yet Another Treasure Trove
A while ago I posted some Trove links of a Dorothy Robertson student at Mildura Central school. What follows is the evidence that she is our Dorothy. (I have capitalised the important names)
17 AUGUST 1927 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – GIRL GUIDES
GIRL GUIDES
An enrolment of Brownies of the First Mildura Pack (Church of England) took place at St. Margaret’s Parish hall last, Saturday week, Rev. Canon Horner opening the proceedings with prayer. Miss McWilliams 1 District Commissioner performed the enrolment ceremony, and Miss Gcocissor. (Drov.11 Ov.-ii and the First Meri.eii! Brownies were present.
Mirs Jr.hr.s’.on (Brown Owll and Mirs . Currey ‘Tav.-uy Qv;lk wove emrcVie-tl before- tho children. Tho children linishfu with fairy rings and grand r.alutc. The following children were carolled: Esther Nichols, Doreen Sarah, Eetiv litimmertGn, Irene Ijciich. Doreen Leach, Morle Dowlin, Enid Norman, Wilntit Halpin. Joan Halpia. Vaida Woods, Trixie Robertson and DOROTHY ROBERTSON.
10 DEC 1932 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – MILDURA CENTRAL
During the year, swimming certificates were gained as follow:—Senior swimming: Irvine Corbould, Allan Eagle, John Magnusson. Junior swimming, boys: Graeme Baker, Max Baker, John Carson, Ronald Carter, Irvine Corbould, Alan Blackwood, Robert Davidson, Allan Eagle, Harry Heme, Roy Hunter, John Magnusson, Ray Magnusson, Joseph McGinty, Douglas Noyce, Charles Scarff, Robert Styles, Ronald Stephens, George Risbey, Max Wilson, Keith Wood, Rowland Woodhead. Girls: Ivy Fleming, Ilma Jones, Mary Malloch, Lorna Thomson, Thelma Thornton, DOROTHY ROBERTSON.
15 DEC 1934 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – MILDURA CENTRAL
Grade 8 have satisfactorily completed the year’s work. At the merit certificate examination they were very successful, gaining 13 merits out of a possible 14, and one pupil still pending in mental arithmetic.
The following pupils were successful: Girls: Heather Carter, Mavis Feuton, DOROTHY ROBERTSON, Sylvia Surgey, Gladys Thomson. Boys: Kenneth Adamson, Edward Heaner, Ronald Simmonds, Edward Surgey, Colin Williams, John Young, Keith Dunn, Robert Chamberlain. A penny concert in aid of Junior Red Cross will be held on Monday afternoon.
21 DEC 1934 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – CENTRAL SCHOOL YEAR ENDS
SWIMMING CERTIFICATES
At the conclusion of the penny concert Mrs. Segnit, president of the Mothers’ Club, presented to the boys and girls the Merit Certificates obtained at the recent examination, and also the certificates for Education Department tests in swimming efficiency. Merit certificates.—Girls: Mavis Fenton. Heather Carter, Sylvia Surgey, DOROTHY ROBERTSON, Gladys Thomson.
4 JAN 1939 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – SOCIAL JOTTINGS
Miss DOROTHY ROBERTSON, of Melbourne, is the guest of Mrs. F. Hall, of Orange Avenue.
[Mrs. F. Hall is Florence Olivia Hall (nee Stratford), sister of Alice Robertson (nee Stratford), both daughters of Louisa Wilhelmina Stratford (nee Reither). Florence Olivia’s husband Ernest Clarence Hall died in 1917, hence Mrs. F. Hall.]
31 MARCH 1936 – FAMILY NOTICES
Births, Marriages, and Deaths
IN MEMORIAM.
STRATFORD — In loving memory of our dear mother, Louisa W. Stratford, who passed away on March 31, 1935. Sadly missed.
—Inserted by her loving family.
STRATFORD — ln sad and loving memory of our darling grandma, who passed away on March 31, 1935. Dearly loved and sadly missed.
—Inserted by her loving grandchildren. Trix. Pat and Dig. Hall
[Trix (Floris Jean), Pat (Patricia Doreen) and Dig (Clarence Charles) were the children of Florence Olivia Hall (nee Stratford) and Ernest Clarence Hall]
12 OCTOBER 1938 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – ENGAGEMENT
Engagement
The engagement is announced of Patricia Doreen, youngest daughter of Mrs. F. O. Hall, of Orange Avenue, and the late Mr. E. C. Hall, of St. Arnaud, to John Squire, youngest son of Mr. S. Johnson and the late Mrs. Johnson, of Ballarat.
4 JANUARY 1939 (SUNRAYSIA DAILY, MILDURA) NEW YEAR’S EVE DANCES
SERGEANTS’ MESS DANCE
Miss D. ROBERTSON
(Melbourne), white georgette
22 MARCH 1939 (SUNRAYSIA DAILY, MILDURA) – WOMEN’S AIMS & INTERESTS
The St. Patrick’s dance at Casa Loma was very enjoyable. I met MISS ROBERTSON there, who looked striking with the Romany tan make-up. She may be interviewed at Ramsay’s chemist’s shop, and will put you on the right track for making the most of your personal appearance.
19 APRIL 1939 (SUNRAYSIA DAILY, MILDURA) – DOUBLE WEDDING
Johnson—Hall
There was a floral setting in St. Margaret’s Church of England for the marriage of Patricia Dawn, youngest daughter of Mrs. F. O. Hall, of Orange Avenue, and the late Mr. E. E. Hall, of St. Arnaud, to John Squire, youngest son of Mr. S. Johnson and the late Mrs. Johnson, of Raglan Street, Ballarat.
Canon Horner officiated, and Mrs. A. G. Horner, who presided at the organ, played the “Bridal March” as the bride entered the church with her brother, Mr. Clarence Hall, who gave her away. During the signing of the register, MRS. J. C. ROBERTSON, of Melbourne (aunt of the bride), sang “Mate o’ Mine.”
The gown of French crepe, embroidered in silver, worn by the bride, moulded her slim figure and merged into a semi-train. The draped bodice was caught on the shoulders with silver knots, the long sleeves forming points over the hands. Over a filmy cloud of tulle billowed her exquisitely embroidered veil, which was hold by a halo of orange blossoms. She wore white satin and silver shoes, and carried a bouquet of carnations, gladioli, azaleas, and fern, tied with satin ribbon.
The bridesmades. Miss Trixie Hall (sister of the bride) and Miss Jean Dixon, carried bouquets of charm dahlias and carnations, the toning being reproduced in their frocks in two shades of cyclamen and mauve chiffon, making a delightful foil to the bride’s toilette. Picture hats in the same tonings and silver kid shoes completed their ensembles.
The best man was Mr. Alex. Grant, of Melbourne, and the groomsman Mr. Alex. Johnson, of Ballarat (brother of the bridegroom).
At the reception at the Grand Hotel the bride’s mother received the guests in a smart frock of vintage wool georgette, with gold accessories, and hat en suite. She carried a bouquet of autumn-tinted dahlias and maidenhair fern. Canon Homer presided. The usual toasts were musically honored, and many telegrams read. The honeymoon was spent at Lorne, the bride travelling in an imported frock of teal blue woollen, with small toque of prune felt, and prune accessories. Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, who will make their home in Ballarat, were the recipients of many gifts.
{Mrs. J. C. Robertson, nee Alice Stratford)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268806209
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268787718
13 APRIL 1940 (THE AGE, MELBOURNE) – ADVERTISING [this may or may not be her]
MISSING FRIENDS
MISS DOROTHY ROBERTSON, please call at 23 Union-st, Brunswick; Important news
15 MAY 1940 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – SOCIAL NOTES
Mrs. F. O. Hall, or Madden Avenue, left, this week for BALLARAT, where she will be the guest of Mr. and Mrs. J. Johnson.
8 DECEMBER 1920 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – BERRI IMPROVEMENTS
RAMSAY’S CHEMIST
Rumour says that the corner of Wilson Street and Vaughan Terrace will shortly be occupied by two handsome rows of shops. This block has lately changed hands.
Mr. A. M. RAMSAY, CHEMIST, will have possession of his double fronted shop in Vaughan Terrace by Christmas, and is considering extensions.
4 SEPTEMBER 1929 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA)
SAMPLE TINS OF PHOSPHATINE FOOD FREE TO MOTHERS
The following Chemists will be glad to hand you a sample tin of Phosphatine for your Baby:—MILDURA: A. J. Jenkins, H. P. Blackett, P. T. Stone W. It. Weir, A. RAMSEY, J. H. Smith. RED CLIFFS: J. M. Couve, E. J. Dean MERBEIN: G. H. Kendall, S. H. L. Harris. FAILlERES’ PHOSPHATINE Wholesale Agents: Joubert & Joubert Pty. Ltd., Melbourne
5 APRIL 1933 (SUNRAYISIA DAILY, MILDURA) – ADVERTISING
HOT Water Bags.—Moulded rubber, just arrived. Barnet Glass or Dunlop. Price 3/ each.—RAMSEY, CHEMIST, Eighth Street.
…and for those with short memories this be the same Pat what done her level best to lead us off the Dorothy Jean Robertson trail and have us sign on to Katee Dee’s mischievous Estyn Jones diversion ploy over at Peteb’s Tbt. I promptly poured cold water on that affair with a little help from my friends, as can be overviewed in our not so convivial to & fro confabs around August 23/24, 2022 on the first DJR thread. I can see now why she gets a little terse with me but, my cap fits and I’m still in the hunt for the real Dorothy Jean Robertson. Anyone want to come along for the ride, be my guest!
Nick Pelling
In the spirit of of fairness, you’ll kindly put up my preceding, post or if not state reasons for not doing so. Just so’s I don’t harbour any thoughts of your being biased or afraid of the truth. Best to let readers judge for themselves on what needs to be said old bean.
Found a photograph of her great grandmother Susan Howard married to Charles (Carl) Augustus Reither on the Ancestry Website in a public family tree.
Facts:
MOEBUS CECIL CLAUDE CLARENCE : Service Number – NX33193 : Date of birth – 12 Mar 1911 : Place of birth – MILDURA VIC : Place of enlistment – PADDINGTON NSW : Next of Kin – MOEBUS FREDERICK
HALL, Floris Jean Marriage to MOEBUS, Cecil Claude Clarence
VIC BDM 13343/1946
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196527004?searchTerm=%22mrs.%20f.%20o.%20hall%22#
8 June 1952
Mrs. F. O. Hall, of Mildura,
who has been oh holidays with
her daughter, Mrs. C. Moebus,
of Wollomombi, returned by
East-West Airlines and A.N.A.
at the week-end.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265824280?searchTerm=%22mr.%20c.%20moebus%22#
29 JUNE 1954 – HAY, NSW
MERRINEE FOOTBALLERS’ BALL
Although Merrinee Foobfall Club
did not achieve much success on the
field during the season just conclud-,
ed, that fact tailed to affect their annual
bail at the Merrinee Hall on
Thursday night. Visltors from Ka-
rawinna, Plrlta and Wenlmull at-.
ttended. The gathering was a bog
success, and the music of the Me-
ringur Orchestra was appreciated.
Miss D. Ledgerwood and Mr. C Moe-
bus won the lucky spot dance, and
Miss Daphne Frankel end Mr. D.
Graham won the Monte Carlo dance.
Members of the. committee and the
ladles’ committee served an appetising
supper.
JUNE and JULY 1954 – HAY, NSW
Mr. C. Moebus donated bread for Hay Hospital
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137217810?searchTerm=%22mr.%20c.%20moebus%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137221792?searchTerm=%22mr.%20c.%20moebus%22#
Speculation:
If Dorothy was raised in Mildura (and it makes sense given J. C. Robertson’s one year conviction after her birth), maybe she had a much closer relationship to her aunt Florence Olivia Hall than to her parents.
Her cousin Floris Jean Hall married in 1946 C.C.C. Moebus, who was born in Mildura, enlisted in Paddington, NSW in July 1940, and they lived in Wollombi and Hay, NSW around 1952-1954.
Maybe Dorothy went there after her operation at Wallaroo hospital?
Wrong date for the footballers’ ball, right date is 1934.
Mr. Ramsay’s Chemist Shop was at the same street as Dorothy’s Grandma’s first address in Mildura.
Mrs. Louisa Wilhelmina Stratford was a ‘Ladies’ Nurse” and midwife (without registration, fined in 1927) at Eighth Street, Mildura from at least 1916 to 1919, when she moved her ‘professional’ address to Lemon Avenue, the residence of her daughter-in-law, Mrs. H. Stratford (Henry Mason Gerald Stratford) (nee Ethel Endora Enwood Manhire), who coincidentally had been previously married to a James Robertson, hence her daughter Ivy Ada being referenced on newspapers as both Ivy Robertson and Ivy Stratford.
Eighth Street was also where you could board a bus to Adelaide.
ADELAIDE—MILDURA
Maiden’s “Flying Cloud” Service
Via Renmark, Berri”, Barmera, Kingston,
Walkerie, Werrimull, Meringur.
Leaves Wm. Davis’ Office, Eighth
Street, Mildura, Sundays, Wednesdays,
and Fridays at 5 a.m., arriving
Renmark at 11 a,m., Adelaide 6 p.m.
Leaves Adelaide M.T.T.A. (opposlte
Adelaide railway station) Tuesdays,
Thursdays and Saturdays at 7.30 a.m,
arriving Mildura 6 p.m.
Further particulars from, the Agents:
Mildura: Wm. Davis Phone 224.
Merbein: Fisher’s Stores Pty. Ltd.
Phone 117.
The same newspaper page has a notice from Henry Mason Gerard Stratford.
ALL AGENTS TAKE NOTICE
That my property situated corner of
Thirteenth Street and Etiwanda Ave.
is withdrawn from .sale.—H. M. G.
STRATFORD.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265772537
Three years later (Feb 1936) he would offer furniture, block implements, harness and one milking cow by Public Auction (his mother Louisa Wilhelmina died on 31 March 1935).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265976852
He died in 1950 in Ringwood, Vic. His wife died in 1956 in Albury, NSW, where their daughter Thelma Georgina (1916-2009) lived with her husband Clarence C. Garrett until 1975 (at least) when he died (BDM Vic marriage reg 1936 says Clarence Geo but his headstone (Findagrave) reads Clarence C., not G).
Thelma Georgina died in Victoria (Alfred Hospital, Melbourne City) but is interred with her husband at Waugh Road Cemetery in North Albury, NSW. They had a daughter, Marcia (it seems that Clarence also had another daughter, June).
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2019/270/UNCEM_2667542_ea5d60b8-b396-4cdb-819c-a5b198531050.jpeg
Another NSW place to look for Dorothy?
@ Pat – fabulous work! The Ramsay’s chemist reference is very interesting (although I suspect that the Romany tan makeup was perhaps a bit garish!).
@ Johnno – I think you’ve just boarded the wrong train! The Overland perhaps?
22 March 1939 Sunrayisia Daily – Women’s Aims, Arts, and Interests
Miss Robertson, white triple georgette and sequins, long velvet coat.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268407502?searchTerm=%22casa%20loma%22#
Same St. Patrick’s dance at Casa Loma, when she “looked striking with the Romany tan make-.up”.
Well done Pat. Maybe one day Sanders (or God forbid I) will get a guest post. Not gonna happen!
Don’t listen to JS, the Iago of SM sleuthing, the “motiveless malignity” as Samuel Taylor Coleridge put it with reference to that character who “poured pestilence” into Othello’s ear. Let’s hope that he takes note of what Iago said at the end of the play:
“Demand me nothing: what you know, you know:
From this time forth I never will speak word.”
Othello Act v, Scene ii
Perhaps I should get some Romany tan make-up. Who’s up for the job of putting JS “on the right track for making the most of…[his]…personal appearance”? It’s a big job and could keep you in employment for years. You can put lipstick on a pig but what use is mascara on a maggot?
John Sanders: it’s bad enough that I have to manually tone down your ‘fruity’ mid-century language on occasion, but when you post a comment solely for it to stick in a specific individual’s throat, you can’t really be surprised if it’s far simpler for me to just press the delete button.
Pat: nice, that looks like a good electoral register name and address to look up. 🙂
I think she could be among these debutantes… I have read the age for debutantes varied from 16-20, but some suggested 35!
Eighteen Debutantes
At Kerang
KERANG, Tuesday.— Seven hundred
attended the agricultural ball in the
town hall to-night, when. 18 debu-
tantes were presented to the shire pre
sident (Cr. L. Weaver), and ‘Mrs.
Weaver, and the president of the so
ciety (Mr. H. L. Foster) and Mrs.
Foster.
The debutantes, who were intro
duced and trained by Mrs. F. S. Cro-
zier, wore frocks of white silk net over
taffettas, and carried 1830 bouquets of
carnations, ageratum and mignonette.
They were Misses Nell Cullen, Merle
Livingstone, Tess Ryan, Marjorie
Fowler, DOROTHY ROBERTSON, Peggy
Radcliffe, Norma Loosemore, Joyce
Hipworth, Gwen Brooker, Doris New-
stead, Jean Morton, Dorothy Mc-
Knight, Margaret Bartlett, Heather
McKenzie, Valerie Cox, Joy Hall,
Claire Hogan and Jean Heffernan.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206775753?searchTerm=debutante%20dorothy%20robertson
25 NOV 1933 – SUNRAYSIA DAILY, MILDURA
OWL COMPETITION RESULT
I have been looking at “owls”
until I feel like one. I had a
great many entries, and it has
been hard work for the judge to
place the winners, and really
they were all so good that almost
everyone deserved a prize.
However, that is impossible, so
the prizes are as follow:
DOROTHY ROBERTSON, 33 Mabel
Avenue; 2/6.
Joyce Harford, Convent, Wentworth;
Certificate.
Ray Willshire, “HillcrEst,”
Red Cliffs; Certificate
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265641131?searchTerm=%22dorothy%20robertson%22#
28 Jul 1934 – SUNRAYSIA DAILY, MILDURA
The Koala Bear
Competition
There was an excellent number
of entries for the Koala Bear
Competition, and it was a very
puzzling task to make the awards.
But the judge decided as follows:
First prize, 2/6, Kitty Engle
field, Pirlta.
Second prize, certificate, DOR
OTHY ROBERTSON, 33 Mabel Avenue,
Mildura.
Third prize, certificate, Freddy
Marr, Post Office, Bambill.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265812313?searchTerm=%2233%20Mabel%20Avenue%22#
15 July 1933 (Sunraysia Daily, Mildura) – Mildura Central
The following pupils gained the
senior swimming certificate last sea-
son: Herbert Riches, GeorgeSparkes,
Ron. Carter, Ray Magnusson, Wesley
Guy, Ivy Fleming, DOROTHY ROBERTSON.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265781760?searchTerm=Mildura%20Central%20school%20robertson#
Keep smiling Nick but, don’t expect the whole world to smile with you…
There’s your queue iMOJI…take it away…
@ Pat – Mildura had one of the earliest government high schools in Victoria (as did Ballarat), opening in 1914. There were few government secondary schools prior to WWII and those that were established were usually in areas where there wasn’t an existing church or private school. Country Victoria was ahead of the city in terms of government secondary schools, as it was considered important to offer secondary school agriculture subjects, which weren’t often offered by church schools. I thought perhaps Dorothy could be a bright girl who went on from the Central School to the High School – something that would be hard to do in Cundare, but it doesn’t appear so. I can’t find her in the high school rolls (but will have a better look). There is a good set of school magazines, below:
https://www.mildura.vic.gov.au/Explore/Libraries/Discover-local-history/School-Magazines
If so, Dorothy probably left school at 14 or 15. Possibly going to work at the pharmacy?
I’m afraid some of those Dorothy’s are not our Dorothy…
Malcom Robertson had two daughters, Dorothy Ida (b. 1921) and Trixie Mary (b. 1920). They are the ones mentioned here
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/263662446
He was a trade union official in Mildura and he lived at Mabel Avenue. There are many references on Trove.
https://archivescollection.anu.edu.au/index.php/robertson-malcolm
The Dorothy Robertson from Melbourne visiting Florence Olivia Hall and the St. Patrick’s, New Year’s Eve and Patricia Doreen wedding party references are obviously our Dorothy, though.
And JS had already advised me that Trixie was Dorothy’s sister a while back, but the thing is, I trusted the b…… and stopped researching….
John Sanders on August 8, 2023 at 9:57 pm said:
@Pat
Can’t find F… All on your given F. Hall, though I see an E. Hall which you have tried to connect to yet another non descript Dorothy Robertson but who I can prove is not related at all to Doff (Webb) by virtue of different familial origins. I take it that be the basis for your “I don’t understand what you say” and I appreciate that you may have language difficulties. Should you wish, I am quite effluent in Portugues Brasileiro if that be preferable for future comunicacoes
Pat: all so true too but, our modifier couldn’t bear to hear the truth. Yes there were two little Trixies of about the same age; Trixie Mary Robertson GG having died in 1930 aged just ten, poor child.
@ JS,
Modifier? Are you trying to say/write moderator? Do you have language difficulties?
If you could just say what you want to say instead of joking and talking in riddles (babbling to me more precise) we woudn’t waste our time, but I suspect you have a lot of time in your hands.
@ Nick,
Why don’t you give JS a guest post so he can put all his briliant theories about this case in one single place? It would be nice to read a comment of 1,000,000,000 words.
@Pat Join Ancestry or use the public library free version (I use it on my local library public internet). You can look at these families on public family trees: you can contact the tree owners, too.
NP: just for the record; in ’63, the year before you were welped, I topped the class in English for my intermediate (freedom) certificate, not bad for kid with a tan and an attitude (sans aptitude) like mine; might ha’ done better had spell check been around. Your clique might not care a lick but, old teach’ had been a lighthorse trooper like Doff’s dad in the big one, likely learning his craft under colonial tutorship. It be no wonder then that you’se “ain’t hip to my kind o’ lip”…. and thanks Christ for small Blessings.
Anyone care to show proof that John Comber Robertson did gaol time for posting pornography to a former landlady, which meant that his daughter Dorothy Jean Robertson was raised by a relative in far off Mildura. It might be born in mind that there seems to have been more than one John C. Robertsons served in the late war and any number of Dorothy Robertsons with which to guild the Trove Sunraysia lily.
Hang on everyone, where does this leave the Romany Tan makeup?
@ Nick – Yes please, by popular demand, a guesstimate post from @ Johnno! I’ve always believed that there are both pearls and aubergine peas amongst the rollicking prose (actually, we call aubergines eggplants down here in the antipodes!).
@ Lord CoB, it would well and truly prove Voloshinvov, Gramsci and Vygotsky’s takes on language, social & historical contexts vs the Saussarians… Hell, put some wild Gould League inspired illustrations in there & it could even give the Voynich a brief run!
And if I had more time in my world, I’d love a few of us to write a collective redux on Ruth Balint’s great article! Ours would be something along the lines of “The Somerton Man and digital sleuthing globalising times: bush bashing through Australian twentieth century social history.” I think our generous and very patient moderator has actually facilitated something wild and unique that even Gramsci would cast a nod towards!
Whomsoever it be that reckon’s the original anemptyglass category list is still in situ, please prove it to us doubters with of one of them screen shot ‘link’ bizzos. Only GC’s four ROK code/slip captions plus his Webb Saga add on show up on my search of the Fandom sites. Come up with the other two score, you’ll be a better
man than I am….Sue d’Nihm
Pat: We can but guess who it was instructed you to use the word ‘speculation’ in personal deniability situations where you might get caught telling porkies. I recall getting like advice but I forgot to say thanks and am paying for it now. I take it you have now amended two such assertions re Patricia Doreen Hall sans Patricia Dawn Hall, the 1939 Merrinee footy ball sans 1954 but, no more to date. What about the potential game changer that SPECULATES Doff’s dirty dad John C. (sans Comber) Robertson was slotted for two months, meaning in éssence that wee Doff must live with her aunt Flo until she turned sixteen. Sure hope you can put a lid on that self serving SPECULATION, know what I mean?
Jo: Ca Tim = Brinjal = Gilo = ladies fingers = eggplant = Aborigine
Vietnam Indon. Brazil New Zealand Gt Britain Australian
NP: I had it all down Pat, neat all in sync. You stuffed up on purpose!
@ J Edward S
In your one man army’s war against the murder of unwashed arse licking poms & crows, you seem to have taken your hero Sun Tzu’s advice a little too much to heart:
“微乎微乎，至於無形；神乎神乎，至於無聲；故能為敵之司命。”
For those who don’t have JES’s fluency in classical Chinese :
“Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.”
The Art of War Chapter VI · Weaknesses and Strengths
Do you only own one record? Don McLean’s Greatest Hits? Reminds me of the time I took the bus from Melbourne to Adelaide back in ’85 and the driver kept playing a Kenny Rogers compilation tape on repeat until a brave young woman went up and asked him to turn it off, somewhere near Bordertown I seem to remember.
Was it you who I had a brief discussion with way back when about JCR’s smutty doodlings and dirty ditties? It’s all starting to become a bit of a blur now, like an ether induced kaleidoscopic nightmare in which mildewed, leprous and sickly phosphorescent faces keep screaming abuse at me from odd parts of the world such as Ballina and the less salubrious environs of Hanoi.
For more on those letters that contained “everything filthy” see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205032475?searchTerm=%22john%20c%20robertson%22%20letters
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4661246?searchTerm=%22john%20c%20robertson%22
Since that shabby little incident was in 1922 I can’t see how Dorothy could have turned sweet sixteen during John C Robertson’s two months in the can! But as our JCR was born 15 Oct 1894 he would sure have been 27 on 18 April 1922!
@Jo
The Romany tan make-up died a death back in the ’50s along with the Marigny Cold Waves we discussed a while back.
“Don’t take risks with-your hair. Have the
wave that keeps it supple and vital with
natural-looking waves and curls.
Whether your hair is limp, oily, dry, ”
coarse or the difficult ‘baby’ fine type,
you can help it with a Marigny Cold Wave
Be guided by your hairdresser on style,
then let her give you a Marigny Cold Wave
to hold-it in permanent, perfect shape.”
@ JS
Sorry mate, I forgot you don’t do links. So let’s recapitulate:
1954 was MY TYPO…
22 Sep 1934 – HAY, NSW
MERRINEE FOOTBALLERS’ BALL
Although Merrinee Football Club
did not achieve much success on the
field during the season just conclud-
ed, that fact tailed to affect their annual
bail at the Merrinee Hall on
Thursday night. Visltors from Ka-
rawinna, Plrlta and Wenlmull at-.
ttended. The gathering was a bog
success, and the music of the Me-
ringur Orchestra was appreciated.
Miss D. Ledgerwood and Mr. C Moe-
bus won the lucky spot dance, and
Miss Daphne Frankel end Mr. D.
Graham won the Monte Carlo dance.
Members of the. committee and the
ladles’ committee served an appetising
supper.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265824280?searchTerm=%22mr.%20c.%20moebus%22# (just in case)
Patricia Doreen / Dawn was a NEWSPAPER TYPO…
(unless you can show me evidence that there were TWO John Squire Johnson in Ballarat getting engaged to TWO Patricia, both daugthters of Mrs. F. O. Hall, of Orange Avenue and the late Mr. E. C. Hall (another typo on the wedding note, E. E. Hall)
Her name was Patricia Doreen Hall, as you can see below, and her father was E. C. Hall, for Ernest Clarence Hall.
12 Oct 1938 – Engagement
The engagement is announced of
Patricia Doreen, youngest daughter
of Mrs. F. O. Hall, of Orange Ave
nue, and the late Mr. E. C. Hall, of
St. Arnaud, to John Squire, youngest
son of Mr. S. Johnson and the late
Mrs. Johnson, of Ballarat.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268787718
19 Apr 1939 – DOUBLE WEDDING
Johnson—Hall
There was a floral setting in St. Margaret’s Church of England for the marriage of Patricia Dawn, youngest daughter of Mrs. F. O. Hall, of Orange Avenue, and the late Mr. E. E. Hall, of St. Arnaud, to John Squire, youngest son of Mr. S. Johnson and the late Mrs. Johnson, of Raglan Street, Ballarat.
Canon Horner officiated, and Mrs. A. G. Horner, who presided at the organ, played the “Bridal March” as the bride entered the church with her brother, Mr. Clarence Hall, who gave her away. During the signing of the register, MRS. J. C. ROBERTSON, of Melbourne (aunt of the bride), sang “Mate o’ Mine.”
The gown of French crepe, embroidered in silver, worn by the bride, moulded her slim figure and merged into a semi-train. The draped bodice was caught on the shoulders with silver knots, the long sleeves forming points over the hands. Over a filmy cloud of tulle billowed her exquisitely embroidered veil, which was hold by a halo of orange blossoms. She wore white satin and silver shoes, and carried a bouquet of carnations, gladioli, azaleas, and fern, tied with satin ribbon.
The bridesmades. Miss Trixie Hall (sister of the bride) and Miss Jean Dixon, carried bouquets of charm dahlias and carnations, the toning being reproduced in their frocks in two shades of cyclamen and mauve chiffon, making a delightful foil to the bride’s toilette. Picture hats in the same tonings and silver kid shoes completed their ensembles.
The best man was Mr. Alex. Grant, of Melbourne, and the groomsman Mr. Alex. Johnson, of Ballarat (brother of the bridegroom).
At the reception at the Grand Hotel the bride’s mother received the guests in a smart frock of vintage wool georgette, with gold accessories, and hat en suite. She carried a bouquet of autumn-tinted dahlias and maidenhair fern. Canon Homer presided. The usual toasts were musically honored, and many telegrams read. The honeymoon was spent at Lorne, the bride travelling in an imported frock of teal blue woollen, with small toque of prune felt, and prune accessories. Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, who will make their home in Ballarat, were the recipients of many gifts.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268806209
___________________________________________________________________________________
@ Jo,
4 Jan 1939 – SOCIAL JOTTINGS
Miss DOROTHY ROBERTSON, of Melbourne, is the guest of Mrs. F. Hall, of Orange Avenue.
4 Jan 1939 – New Year’s Eve Dances
Miss D. Robertson
(Melbourne), white georgette;
Misses P. Hall, G. Hall and J. Hall attended.
There was another F. Hall in Mildura, and coincidentally she had two daughters, one called Jean and the other… Dorothy!
But of course her daughter was Miss Dorothy (Dot) Hall and she lived in Mildura, not Melbourne, and she wasn’t married at least until 3 April 1940, so I am quite confident that this Dorothy above is our Dorothy. Moreover, Mrs. F. Hall’s residence from at least 1936 to at least 3 April 1940 was at Cureton Avenue. And she was engaged to marry a Mr. Golding.
22 Jan 1936 – Women’s Aims & Interests
Miss Dot Hall, of Cureton Avenue
has returned from Geelong.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265973681?searchTerm=%22cureton%20avenue%22%20%22miss%20hall%22
Miss Dorothy Hall, of Cureton
Avenue, has returned after spending
two months at St. Kilda, Melbourne,
and Bondi, Sydney.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268801306?searchTerm=%22cureton%20avenue%22%20%22miss%20hall%22
And there was another P. Hall (Phyllis Hall), daughter of a Mrs. Hall from Ballarat, but remember that Mrs. F. O. Hall was originally from St. Arnaud and her daughter Patricia Doreeen was going to marry John Squire Johnson, from Ballarat, so not related. Miss Dorothy Hall and Miss Alison Hall have attended the party.
22 Feb 1933 – Coming-of-age Party (Casa Loma)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265680859?searchTerm=%22miss%20p.%20hall%22
Regarding Mildura schools… Is this the same as Mildura Central? Or is it another school?
26 June 1935 Ex-Students Dance
‘The ex-students of the High School…’
Both P. Hall and T. Hall attended.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265947459?searchTerm=%22miss%20p.%20hall%22#
16 Jun 1937 Bowrings Staff Dance
Misses P. Hall, T. Hall, D. Hall and S. Hall attended, the first two are probably not related to the last two (separated in the description of their frocks)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266090128?searchTerm=%22miss%20p.%20hall%22#
Miss P. Hall (and her sister T. Hall) went to a lot of dances before she got married, some of them could not be her though, there was a P. Hall from Renmark.
Here is she and her soon-to-be bridesmaid, J. Dixon, and her sis Trixie Hall.
2 Mar 1938 Gift Evening
Miss T. Hall, brotvn floral ninon,
green saab; – Miss P. Hall, tunic frock
of pink floral ninon, loose kilted
sleeves; Miss J. Dixon, navy sheer
over floral crepe, blue collar and
jabot;
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268570834?searchTerm=%22miss%20p.%20hall%22#
04 Jan 1939 – New Year’s Eve Dances – Sergeant’s Mess Dance
Both P. Hall and Dorothy Robertson of Melbourne (who was the guest of her aunt F. Hall at Orange Avenue…) attended. Note that the other Hall girls (J. Hall and G. Hall) attended a diferent dance (Casa Loma).
16 Aug 1939 – Social Side of Carnival
Miss T. Hall and F. O. Hall attended. P. Hall was no more, she had already married and was Mrs. J.S. Johnson.
Miss T.
Hall, grey and rust ensemble, green
hat.;. Miss R. Gecrckens, ametliyst
colcile, wine velvet cravat, teal blue
toque; Mrs. F. O. Hall
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268804681?searchTerm=%22miss%20t.%20hall%22#
THE Romany Tan makeup!
Well, it could be another Miss Robertson, but which one was at the right age to be interviewed for a position in a chemist shop?
22 MARCH 1939 (SUNRAYSIA DAILY, MILDURA) – WOMEN’S AIMS & INTERESTS
The St. Patrick’s dance at Casa Loma was very enjoyable. I met MISS ROBERTSON there, who looked striking with the Romany tan make-up. She may be interviewed at Ramsay’s chemist’s shop, and will put you on the right track for making the most of your personal appearance.
Let’s see!
There was a Miss Irene Robertson, but she was engaged in soon-to-be married in 1936 to Mr. H. W. Sargent.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265994653?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265994639?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
30 Jul 1936 – Rover Scouts’ Gala Dance
This could be another Miss Robertson, but notice that T. Hall and P. Hall also attended.
Miss Robertson, dusty pink pebble
crepe and blue flowers, with blue velvet
coat
Miss T. Hall, cyclamen
and parma violet sandara. Miss P.
Hall, blue waterwave taffeta
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265999078?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
15 Jul 1936 – C.Y.M.S. DANCE
Miss I.
Robertson, dusty pink pebble crepe,
blue and silver flowers
6 Sep 1936 – Women’s Aims and Interests
Miss Fay Robertson,
floral frock:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266012090?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
01 Jan 1936
Miss Faye Robertson, of Mildura,
is holidaying in Broken Hill.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265971159?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
12 Aug 1936 – ASSOCIATED TENNIS CLUB’S DANCE
Miss D. Robertson,
floral ninon over pink foundation
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266002224?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
07 Jul 1937 – Naval and Military Ball
Miss J. Robertson, black net over floral satin
Misses J. Hall and D. Hall also attended.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266092726?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
09 Oct 1936 Washington’s Club Dance
The “lucky spot” was
won by Miss F. Robertson and partner;
and the lucky cap by Mrs. Tonkin
and Mr. Holmes. Those present
included: Misses I. Leighton. black
georgette: M. Larkin. white taffeta:
F. Robertson, black georgette:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265960599?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
30 Dec 1936
Miss F. Robertson, dusty pink silk
linen, brown hat;
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266005143?searchTerm=%22miss%20robertson%22#
This Miss F. (Fay, Faye) Robertson seems to be the most promising one, but now it’s up to you to tell me what was the ‘right’ age for girls to attend all sorts of dances!
I just thought that the interview for a position on a chemist shop in March 1939 was a bloody coincidence given that Dorothy was there on 4 Jan 1939 attending the New Year’s Eve Dance, not to mention she was wearing ‘white georgettes’ at both parties (N Y’s E and St. Patrick’s in March).
@ Poppins
I need your help editing Trove!
All the wonderfully dressed ladies attended Patricia Hall’s Kitchen Tea.
I had been wondering why Dorothy wasn’t mentioned in the Wedding party, but D. Robertson is mentioned in the Kitchen Tea party.
29 March 1939 – Kitchen Tea
Kitchen Tea
St. Margaret’s hall on Monday evening
was decorated in maroon and gold
streamers and masses of lovely
flowers for the kitchen tea tendered
to Miss Patricia Hall prior to her
marriage. The color scheme of the
bride-to-be’s kitchen, green and white,
was featured in the gifts. The supper
table decorations were also carried
out in the same tones.
The guest of the evening, looking
dainty in lettucee green georgette, re
ceived the guests with her mother,
who wore a smart navy georgette.
Miss Norma Murphy, as usual gave
pleasure with her dance music, with
interludes, of vocal and instrumental
items by Miss Mavis Joy and Miss
Lily Barker. Miss Sylvia Smith acted
as accompanist.
The beautifnl gifts were presented
by Canon Horner, and Miss Hall
charmingly responded. Cheers and
“For She’s a Jolly Good Fellow” followed.
Among those present were: Miss
N. Harris, in blue floral satin; Miss
E. Norman, cyclamen taffeta; Miss R
Perry, black velvet: Miss E. Bowden.
mauve georgette; Miss Joyce Berry,
figured taffeta: Miss E. Bielly, shell
pink satin; Miss V. James, floral
cloque; Miss J. Dixon, spotted dimity;
Miss D. Sendy, blue net; Miss
M. Perry, two-toned green taffeta:
Miss L. Jennings, pink cotelle net
bolero; Miss P. Allington, blue taffeta;
Miss P. Glancy, pale pink organza
Miss M. Evans, floral sheer;
Miss J. Maggs, lettuce green angelskin:
Miss E. Evans, blue floral
cotelle; Miss L. Breedin (Melb.),
sunset chiffon with sequin halo; Miss
J. Wilson, ivory sharkskin and green
georgette; Miss P. Henshall, floral
georgette; Miss Batey, floral taffeta;
Miss M. Smith, green net; Miss S. |
Smith, black satin, green velvet
pony: Miss N. Murphy, green geor-j
gette; Miss R. Geerckiens. cerise net;
Miss M. Joy, floral crepe: Mrs. T.
Allington. black lace; Mtes L. Barker.
blue satin; Miss D. ROBERTSON, floral
crepe-back satin; Miss B. Dixon,
flame georgette: Mrs. Edkiss, blue
Paisley silk; Miss P. Young, floral
silk voile; Miss Young, blue pony
skin; Mrs. C. Wilkins (Camberwell)
floral black cloque; Miss M.
Taylor, pale pink ninon with gold
sequins.
Mrs. A. Hall, navy floral marocain;
Miss J. Norman, blue tafetta; Mrs. J.
Hall, navy blue georgette; Miss T.
Hall, pink and white floral georgette;
Miss B. Lawler, shell pink cloque;
Miss E. Brown floraI georgette; Mrs.
McCormick, wine crepe; Miss G. Joy,
green georgette.
Miss Fitman, figured angelskin;
Miss C. O’Connor, blue and white
sheer; Mrs. Etherington, autumn
toned cloque; Miss N. Hankin, apricot
cloque; Miss D. Wardrobe, sage
green taffeta; Miss J. Stokie, lime green
lace; Miss N. Dixon, floral pink
satin; Miss Joan Bennett, floral
satin, tomato shade bolero; Miss N.
Kayrett, pink georgette; Miss B.
Bridge, white taffeta; Miss Porter
blue floral marrocain; Miss P. Robin
son, jade green sattin; Mrs. Newton,
floral estelle; Miss M. Thomson,
floral georgette; Miss V. Spiller, blue
taffeta; Mrs. A. G. Horner, black
with pastel tinted flowers; Miss
J. Smith, floral with white
background.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268409314?searchTerm=%22d.%20robertson%22#
@ JS
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6CYQ-25TL
Victoria Petty Sessions Registers 25 Apr 1923 – 18 Jun 1924 Colac, Victoria, Austrália
“Australia, Victoria, Petty Sessions Registers, 1858-1985”.
John Comber Robertson
Accused or Defendant
Legal
23 Jan 1924
Colac, Victoria, Australia
Colac Courts, Victoria, Australia
Colac Courts
Victoria Petty Sessions Registers
301/P0/Vol 62
@ Curio
I wish I could pay an Ancestry subscription, it’s not in my priorities’ list until I find a job! Local public library hasn’t access, unfortunately.
I thought that you guys in Australia and the others who already have an Ancestry subscription could help…
The first things I noticed was the coincidental Magnusson and Thomson surnames in the swimming post…..but it’s easy to be distracted by coincidence – and that’s all we’re seeing there.
But perhaps the links to Mildura are more interesting – in particular the Adelaide Bus service Pat mentions that takes you through the Riverland – which is of course where Magnusson had his wanderings and may have worked with a Carl Thompson (“Carl….err…he had a common surname….can’t remember, maybe Thompson?”). Of course none of that takes us anywhere useful, but just wondering what if that’s where Dorothy met Carl
Pat: mighty white of you for a cracker you but, no smoking gun without JEAN.
Bob: same goes for you ‘non tubber’ nsg without the middle monicker COMBER.
Mildura High School, Mildura Central State School, Mildura West State School, South Mildura School.
No Dorothy Robertson apart from Malcom Robertson’s daughter (Mildura Central), although searching on Trove is not a scientific endeavour, it’s art, so anything is possible.
Congrats JS, apparently she has not been educated in Mildura.
My condolences, JS, she did use to visit her aunt Florence Olivia Hall (nee Stratford) in Mildura.
In any case, I found a mention of Mrs. J. C. Robertson that has escaped the screening abilities of all Abbot’s students and everyone here and elsewhere who looked for her. Kudos to me.
Now anyone with access to the electoral roll can check for Dorothy Jean living in Hay, Wollombi (NSW), where cousin Trix (Mrs C. Moebus) lived and Aunt Flo used to visit and probably lived in her old age, and Albury (NSW), where cousin Thelma Georgina Garrett (ne e Stratford) lived (as Nick has pointed out).
What were the names of the electoral divisions in these places? Did they change from 1956 to the late 1990s?
It’s a long shot, but what else do we have?
Bob CoB,
Melb. 18th. July 1917 (Doff’s well spotted birthday)
Dear Sir,
Will you kindly advise the name and address of the next-of-kin of soldier J. C.
Robertson whose death on active service has recently been reported. I desire to know if he is identical with an employee of this Department who was granted
extended leave without pay commencing 18-8-14 for the purpose of taking service with the Australian Imperial Expeditionary Forces abroad. I regret I am unable to supply regimental particulars….Trusting the favour of an early reply.
I remain, Yours faithfully, signed……………..General Superintendent, Vic Railways
Reply from Major J. M. Lean Vic. Bks 21/7/17….to the effect never heard of him.
**** Plenty of John C. Robertsons bn. 1894 knocking about with dirty thoughts circa. 1922 old cock, even one with middle name Comber who, at the time was living a long way from town at rural Beeac (Corangamite), battling to clear his soldier settlement land parcel and put up tempory shelter for Alice and their wee Bairn without government help. No time for sending filthy postcards to old flames. So me once worldly old cob what’s your next cunning stunt going to be?
Nick Pelling: talking about delete buttons…stand by!
BoB,
Got us a starter in John Crawford Robertson born Glasgow circa 1895 who like his near namesake Doff’s dad, served with the Light Horse during the big one and was also late coming home on similar medical grounds. Funny thing aboot Jock’s phys. stats., on inlistment he was a strapping 6′ 1″ and yet by 1917 he had lost almost 7″ but don’t mean nuthing right. Jock was a stockman pre war and died in 1930 from self inflicted wounds? perhaps.
Sure you can come up with other candidates for the 1923 conviction if you’re really
serious.
@Pat this is all fabulously interesting, Dorothy’s schooling in Mildura, good on ya ….. this could lead to an early photo of Dorothy at school at the very least. Catching up reading here now.
“Prior to the said marriage I was a spinster and was by occupation a pharmacist and chiropodist.” If Dorothy was slapping Romany Tan on people’s faces in 1939 I’d say she was just an in-store trained chiropodist and did general chemist/pharmacy duties … in my humble opinion.
Romany Tan:
https://imgur.com/QsQyE9y
Poppins,
Yes Pat, supercalifragilisticexpialalidociously fabulous. More especially in that, as we in ga ga land can well appreciate, Dorothy Robertsons from Victoria pre WW2 must have been few and far between, ie., fewer than five hundred but far more than four score and twenty….Hey how’s about Dave Morgan’s ’42 Keane wedding photo, If that be our Dorothy, then aged 22, than she sure carry’s her malevolence well.
https://archive.org/details/1945-advertisement-for-cyclax_202212
More Romany Tan – from the Australian Women’s Weekly…
I’m sure the Ramsey’s Pharmacy girl was our Dorothy; Doff the influencer!
I don’t have anything useful to add.
I can’t even think of any way that I could possibly procure information that would be useful to anybody participating in the discussion of this thread.
So why am I even commenting? Not for any good reason, only for my own personal desires of saying peepee poopoo.
That is truly all I have to say: peepee poopoo (in two separate words) as well as peepeepoopoo (in a single word), knowing that this does not add anything to this, or in fact any, discussion that has ever occurred here or anywhere else.
Since repetition will neither add nor subtract from this reply, I find it reasonable to repeat peepeepoopoo and peepee poopoo another time, if only for my own sake.
With all the wishes in the world that tangible progress be made on the good ol’ VMS
C. Hagedorn
https://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/companies/cyclax-1930.php
Romany Tan was introduced in 1938. Check out the suggested makeup routines and the chin straps!! There is something very distinctly modern in all of this. Massage and exercise is also recommended as part of the modern girl’s routine! This is reminding me of our earlier discussions about the Physical Culture movement in 1930s Australia (Clarence and Muriel Weber etc)…
@ Pat – Albury NSW has been in the Federal electorate of Farrer since 1949. It’s on the border of NSW and Victoria.
Hay NSW is not far from Mildura and is also in the electorate of Farrer. It is also where the Dunera detainees were interned.
Wollombi is a small village in the Hunter Valley – about 150km from Sydney. It is in the federal district of Hunter (one of the original 1901 electorates).
Mildura Central School and Mildura High School are separate schools – the High School was quite academic, many of its graduates went on to university and professions and for many of the girls teaching and nursing. The Central School was an extension of the primary school – ie middle school, with a leaving age of 14 or 15.
So we are looking for common addresses with Stratford, Moebus and Garrat? I no longer have Ancestry.
With the references to Ballarat and St Arnaud I wonder if the Robertsons and or Stratfords and Webbs knew each other? I’m thinking some kind of arranged introduction between Charlie and Doff… all speculative of course!
Julien,
Keith Mangnoson not Magnusson, there is a difference just like with Julian & Julien.
Um, commenter Hagedorn appears to be Australian, from a reading of the time stamp.
I wonder whether he is also into the poems of Alexander Pope? There’s a certain cadence to his tone.
What do you reckon Sanders?
@Pat, are you saying Dorothy wasn’t educated in Mildura now, different Dorothy confirmed? Malcolm’s Dorothy and Trixie are the ones from Central State School? Could be Dorothy visiting Ramsay’s Chemist though, while on holiday, selling her Romany Tan product sort of like a travelling Avon lady maybe.
Webb, Dorothy Jean Victorian Probate https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/E782A40C-F819-11E9-AE98-854224074D05/about
Found another Dorothy Jean Webb from that probate link at this findagrave link https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/156592788/dorothy-webb?_gl=1*18q3eyl*_gcl_au*MTQ4NTQxMTA3NC4xNjk1MjAyOTEx*_ga*NDMzMDU2ODg4LjE2MDA3NDY4NDY.*_ga_4RKCCQD74Y*YjU3NDg3ODctMTgzMi00ODRkLTk0YTctOGMwNjNiZWI2N2M0LjExLjEuMTcwMDQ4MjY2Ni4wLjAuMA..*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*YjU3NDg3ODctMTgzMi00ODRkLTk0YTctOGMwNjNiZWI2N2M0LjQxLjEuMTcwMDQ4MjY2Ni4zMS4wLjA.
@Christopher Emil Hagedorn
You may remember Bob Nowak’s poem posted here during the last Christmas/New Year period. It was (loosely) based on that old Flanders and Swann classic ‘Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers’ which I link here in a YouTube video in case CM readers missed it earlier:
https://youtu.be/eSrXqOI9988?si=jHDDjUfcvKgpNO2V
“Disney’s planning a double bill…Christopher Robin meets Fanny Hill”
Actually your one contribution was more valuable than everything John Sanders has posted on CM in the last year or so put together. And who reads Augustan poetry these days anyway?
@ Jo,
Thanks a lot for all the info on Australia’s history. You rock, lady!
@ Poppins,
Yes, of course it can’t be ‘confirmed’ but it sounds more likely that Dorothy Robertson from Mildura Central State School is Malcom (Mal) Robertson’s daughter. Doff’s cousins went to Mildura High School.
Yes, Cyclax was the British version of Avon. The travelling agents were called ‘beauty consultants’. I don’t know if Miss Robertson worked as a beauty consultant for Cyclax, but there are tons of material about Cyclax on Trove. Happy hunting!
What’s with this “David Morgan” photo of Charlie and Doff on Facebook?
@Edward
It was YOUR mention of JCR’s supposed pervy inclinations that prompted my response. As the police entrapment incident happened in Melbourne it is highly questionable that it was John Comber, and also the newspaper reports state that he was a barman. And it wasn’t his old landlady as you suggested, but a fellow lodger who received the mucky correspondence. Whoever it was we can blame his dodgy behaviour on those damn foreigners: “Many of the young fellows who went away had become changed owing to their contact with nations like the French and Turks” according to his solicitor.
But you will also have noted in the John Comber’s NAA file (p21) that there is a letter dated 31 July 1917 which reads: “In reply to your letter of 18th instant [which you quote], I have to inform you that the only J C Robertson on the records is…John Comber Robertson…with regard to whom no report of any casualty has been received.” (?) Major, Officer i/c Base Records. Hardly the “never heard of him guv” that you suggest!
I’ll leave your shrinking violet “Jock” Crawford Robertson well alone but if we ever meet you can be sure I’ll give you a great big Glasgow kiss in honour of the old fellow.
@Jo
Will you be getting an oil machineless perm to go with your presumed recent purchase of a tube of Beauty Bronze cream?
You will remember Steve H’s October 2022 comment about the Lovette Beauty salon in Minlaton, SA: “Mrs. Vic Linke, of Maitland, has purchased the Vanity Beauty Salon, at Minlaton, from Mrs Mullins. The Salon will be opened early in the New Year, and run under the name of Lovette Beauty Salon, and will be under the management of Miss Beverley Coombs, late of Clare. She will be specialising in Marigny Cold Wave, Onduluxe Steam Sachet, Oil Machineless Perms and Vita Glory.”
From The Pioneer (Yorketown), 5 November 1948.
All this was in connection with Iago’s misinformation campaign about a Miss E Edwards. He said that she was Doff in disguise (she turned out to be from England!): “LOOK. LOOK. LOOK. Miss E. Edwards. Chiropodist, will visit Minlaton on the first Monday of each month, commencing November 6th at the Lovette Beauty Saloon[sic]”.
From the Pioneer (Yorketown), 13 October 1950.
@Poppins Go to the Victorian births, deaths and marriages search tool then you will find 2 index results show for Dorothy Jean Robertson. This is where name changes exist on the birth record. There is an access restriction rule where 100 years must have elapsed or the person has died (whichever is later).
The deed poll was a way of changing a name up to 1986 in Victoria in a land court, so I just showed a link to court records online prov.vic.gov.au where there is a search tool.
Someone who changed their name might advertise that in a newspaper, also.
@ Jo,
St. Arnaud is where Richard August Webb and Eliza Amelia Grace lived and married, Richard Russell Webb was born, Richard August went to prison, and the Stratfords landed in Australia.
Louisa Wilhelmina Stratford and her son Henry Mason Stratford moved to Mildura in 1915-16, where Alice spent her teenage days impersonating Mme Sophie ( https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74807284 ) and married John Comber Robertson in 1919.
Ballarat is where the couple went to live, and Dorothy was born (1920).
Florence Olive Stratford (Avon Plains, St. Arnaud) married Mr. Ernest Clarence Hall (St. Arnaud) and their daughter, Patricia Doreen Hall, married Ballarat born John Squire Johnson (1910), son of Jean Clarke Christie and Squire Johnson.
In 1917, when he died, Ernest Clarence Hall’s sister Mary Isabella Hall (Mrs. C. Williams) lived in Ballarat.
His brother Charles Hall lived in Melbourne (apparently died the same year as Ernest Clarence, 1917), brothers John Augustus and Henry Edward lived in Mildura. Francis James (Frank) Hall lived in Wycheproof. John William Hall lived in Cold Stream, Gippsland. Most of the siblings (there are many others) were born in St. Arnaud or Brunswick.
The Robertsons and Combers clans (courtesy of John Comber (Jack) Robertson via Bruce Bennet on Wikitree, my additions in [ ]):
“The funeral of Mr. Robert Robertson [John Comber Robertson’s father] took place on Saturday at the Learmonth Cemetey. The deceased was widely esteemed, and a large number of residents of Ballarat, Waubra, Windermere and Burrumbeet attended the funeral.”
Diana May (Robertson) Deakin (1870 – 1946), John Comber Robertson’s aunt and her husband Charles [Henry] Deakin owned a Pomborneit Store in Colac, Charles died on 9 July 1934. “On May 6, 1946, at her residence, Denis Street, Colac, Diana beloved wife of the late Charles Deakin of Pomborneit, and devoted mother of Laila (Mrs. C.Harluck, Pomborneit) and May (Colac) aged 76 years.” [HARLOCK-DEAKIN A pretty wedding took place on Wednesday, February 17, at St. James’s Church,Pomborneit, between Lalia, eldest daughter of Mr. and Mrs. C. H. Deakin, Pomborneit, and Charles, fourth son of Mr. and Mrs. John Harlock. of Wherrina, Pomborneit] [A CONNECTION TO COLAC?]
Peter Robertson [Jack Robertson]. Jack Robertson remembers, as a child about 1901, helping his uncle Peter to drive about 3000 sheep to Ballarat, and then herding them onto the rifle range. Then the men took him to Learmonth where they had fresh bread and blackberry jam.
Donald “Dan” Robertson was born in 1861 at Burrumbeet, the third son of Duncan and Robina. He was not married and ran a property called Heatermonga near Omeo. He died at Colac in 1935 “on the 5th September at the residence of his sister, Mrs C.H.Deakin, Murray Street, Colac. …late of Omeo, aged 74 years”. He left no will. [COLAC AGAIN]
Elizabeth Robertson “Bessie” was born on 21 August 1859 at Burrumbeet. She went to boarding school at Wagga but left age nine and then to Presbyterian Ladies College, Clarendon College in Ballarat, where she was one of the first students.
William Thomas Robertson was born in 1865 at Burrumbeet. He married Ethel Sarah Nicholl and was in Geelong for a time, where they had a son, Ian Nichol on 22 December 1912. [Jack Robertson] but ‘the family lost trace of him for many years’ when he moved to Petersham in Sydney about 1913 to spend time with Ethel’s sister who was suffering from Bright’s Disease. Father of Ian Nicoll Robertson, Died 2 May 1943 at about age 78 in Liverpool, New South Wales, Australia. [A NSW CONNECTION?]
John or Jack Robertson was born in 1866 at Burrumbeet, but died on 6 April 1890 aged 23. “We regret to have to record the death of Mr. John Robertson, of the Ballarat Savings Bank, who succumbed on Sunday to an attack of that terrible disease Typhoid. Mr. Robertson was a splendid specimen of manhood. He was one of our finest athletes, and will be remembered as one of the best players in the Ballarat Imperial Team. In rowing circles he was also well known. His unassuming gentlemanly manner made him a great favourite of all who knew him. He left Ballarat in the best of health, and went to Gippsland to see his mother. He was there attacked by typhoid, and succumbed after a short illness. General regret was expressed in Ballarat yesterday when the sad news arrived. The deceased was the son of the late Mr. Robertson of Burrumbeet, also of Junee Station, NSW,” [Ballarat Courier] “He was a stirer, all sorts of devilment.”
Duncan Robertson was born in 1872 at Burrumbeet, and was the youngest child of Duncan and Robina Robertson. He was educated at Ballarat College , Melbourne, coming to the Scotch school in 1875. (d.o.b. 4 July 1863?). He was a carpenter and a footballer with the Ballarat Imperial Club in 1892, and won many trophies as an oarsman. He had a timber yard in Dandenong with his brother William as partners but it went broke. [Jack Robertson]
Mary “Mill” was born on 17 March 1863 at Burrumbeet. [b.cert] of Duncan 37 farmer from Sutherland and Robina Betsy formerly Young 29. She was the “Belle of the Ball” in the early 1880s in Ballarat, brown eyed, very sweet and very religious. [Barbara Glasson] She married Arthur Barkly Bennett at Ballarat and they moved to Adelaide, and had four children. Mary died in 26 April 1924 in Walkerville.
Arthur Barkly Bennett was the last of the children of Henry and Rebecca Bennett aand was born in their last home, Ballarat, on 11 March 1857. He was named after Sir Henry Barkly, (1815 –1898) who after serving in Guiana and Jamaica was appointed governor of Victoria in November 1856, and served until 1863. Arthur married Mary Robertson, the daughter of Duncan Robertson, on 28 September 1887 at Neil St., Ballarat. [THE ADELAIDE CONNECTION, according to you know who].
I wonder if you could contact Beeac Primary School to ask if they have any archives from the 1920s? It seems to be the place to look for Dorothy’s first school year, given that Phyllis was born there in 1925. There’s nothing about this school on Trove, but their website has a bit of its history.
https://beeacps.vic.edu.au/?page_id=86
@ Curio,
WEBB
Stanley Douglas
Marriage
STRICKLAND, Dorothy Jean
1941
10589/1941
What does these titles in chiropody mean? ”
M. A. I. Ch. (Melb.), F.A.I.S.Ch., and S.I.S.P. Ch.
If you look on Trove, this is what foot specialists and chiropodists were calling themselves when advertising their services while visiting Pharmacies, and also offering facial treatments.
Could Doff have trained at the Australian Institute of Orthopedics?
17 Apr 1936 – Personal
Mrs. A. (” Dinny” ) Clarke, who has
been in Melbourne for some time
studying chiropody and beauty cul-
ture, has returned to Horsham. She
has received a diploma, from the Aus-
tralian Institute of Orthopedics, and
is taking up practice here on Monday
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73096523?searchTerm=%22chiropody%22%20%22melbourne%22#
No idea why my pair of Prahan based DJR beauties circa. mid 40s got rejected. One being a lass in uniform, t’other a fresh Romano Tan or Oilene Suprema type, and both single to boot (but not for long). Perhaps Pat had rejected them out of hand and I wasn’t so Keane either. Anyone per chance be interested in three Dorothy’s, Mary, Ella and a Joan Dorothy (Springvale). all having something in common with our Doff. Nothing to peepee poopoo your pants over ladies, its just that all were born on 18th July, 1920.
@Curio, I’ve provided a screenshot of what I get when I go to the BDM site. 22 results come up and no sign of deed poll – actually, the only options are birth, death, marriage and if you don’t choose one of them, well, it won’t do a search. I’m familiar with deed polls and newspaper classified announcements of such.
What am I missing …. I do see Malcolm there in the list, hey, with the birth of Dorothy Ida at Mildura, which is a bit interesting.
https://imgur.com/kxb9CAA
https://imgur.com/vYcKfRB
PS: Did anyone ever figure out the street name on the birth certificate, it;s a little baffling.
I’ve been looking on BDM Victoria and can only find three Dorothy Jean Robertson births registered between 1900 and 1939 – one born in 1905 in Essendon, one born in Maryborough 1922 and our Dorothy 1921. Found the most fabulous website Archival Access Victoria, with a record showing up for Dorothy Jean Robertson in a Pupil Register for Swanston Street School Geelong No.1094 between 1909 and 1939. Have put in a request for further details, but I think the records are kept at Prov Vic, if anyone beats me to it, no worries, am keen to find out, but will press ahead and follow through with my request nonetheless.
@Poppins,
Nurse Oates’ Private Hospital
520, Doveton Street, Ballarat.
https://bih.federation.edu.au/index.php/Nurse_Oates%27_Private_Hospital
Scheming Lord GoB,
Mulling over your typical off thread piece on ‘a pig in a poke and abusing maggots’ brings to mind that, during his three years of non active service in army Hygene Corps Leo Keane would have been known affectionately as Cpl. Leo Maggots. Then upon completing the Hygene and Sanitation course, he’d have been elevated to the not so coveted rank of Sgt. Blowfly, that being about the time Leo decided the RAAF might be a cleaner greener career path. Such a pity that you chose to holiday in the Colonies circa ’82, rather than sign up to serve your Queen and country in the Fawklands with Her loyal royal lad HRH Andrew Duke of Pork. Then you’d know all about obscure military practices, terminology etc., and I wouldn’t have to bore you to tears.
Brilliant Poppins!
You’ve probably found them, the pupil registers are all there at the PROV, open access:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/VPRS9348
This Beeac history, “Winds of Change” by Dawn Missen may have some photos…
https://slv.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9921301493607636&context=L&vid=61SLV_INST:SLV&lang=en&search_scope=slv_local&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=searchProfile&query=any,contains,Beeac&offset=20
Poppins: “I’ve been looking on BDM Vic..and our Dorothy 1921″… Why then have NP and Abbott’s seconded FB team of Pat, Jo & co. been fixated on 1920 for the past fourteen months.
@ Poppins,
Great find! I love the website! I wonder if there are others like it?
@ Iago
That’s a typo. Click the link. Get a grip, man. You are the King of typos!
Interesting, but probably unrelated…
Hautrie Crick (1918-2023 -104 years old!), Service Number: VX48002, Unit: A.A.S.C., also attended Swanston Street State School.
https://findagrave.com/memorial/259657881/hautrie-crick
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6130667&T=PDF
Sir Robert William Kerr Honeycombe, KBE also attended Swanston St State School and he was only one year younger than Doff.
https://gnet.tgc.vic.edu.au/wiki/HONEYCOMBE-Professor-Sir-Robert-William-Kerr-Robert-1921-2007.ashx
This book could have some info…
https://library.deakin.edu.au/record=b2012128 Louis Lane school workbooks Swanston Street State School, Geelong, Geelong High School and The Emily McPerson Coolege, Melbourne in the 1920s and 1930s
While browsing NAA I had a look on Leo Vivian Keane’s file… two questions.
1. His wife Irene’s address: Flat 4, Royston, Royston Street, King’s Cross, Sydney. I thought they lived in Victoria?
2. Why the last 2 pages of his file has a Confidential folder in the name of
McINERNEY, Bernard William – (Flight Sergeant); Service Number – 438399; File type – Casualty – Repatriation; Aircraft – Liberator A72-133; Place – Sumba Island, Netherlands East Indies; Date – 27 April 1945.
@Jo, @Pat these records are great, they have date of birth, address, parents occupation, previous school and at the end the next school they’re going to – most excellent – the girls register 1914 to 25 is digitised there online – ah, all those old names, Myrtle, Lottie, Olive, Mildred ….. can’t wait to see the date of birth of the Dorothy in the later register.
@LordCoB – agree, I too don’t believe the letter sending JC Robertson is Dorothy’s dad, the barman fella.
@Sanders, forgiveness, I pushed the wrong button there, should have been 1920 – well spotted, my mistake …. all Somerton punters are asked to put a line through 1921 …. caused by mental fatigue, lunacy, typo, who knows, the question is wide open for speculation and conjecture, of course, but yes, I do know it’s 1920. Good on ya, I loathe my blunders. Who’s that bunch of ladies you’re talkin’ about, Mary, Ella and Joan Dorothy – no idea, but I shall investigate to atone ….
Pat: thought I mentioned Irene at Kings Cross some months back. Yep that’s right, Leo was serving in Sydney during the war and son John Robert bn. ’42 lived next door in Bondi Junction in later years if I’m not mistaken. Hey, does pay to follow what others say OK?
@ Pat
There are no Dorothy Jean Robertsons but there are Dorothy Robertsons and Jean Robertsons on the electoral roll for Farrer but in 1968 and the 1970s. There were federal elections in 1954, 1955 and 1958 – so I’d expect to see her on the rolls for those years if she went to live with or near the Moebus or Garrett familes after leaving Bute. I couldn’t see any Dorothy Lockyers.
@ Pat
People can also apply to become silent electors – in which case they are on the electoral roll but their address is suppressed. This is very common for women leaving domestic violence. On contemporary rolls the electorate is still listed but not the address. I’m assuming that there was something similar in place historically.
I’ve only been looking at Ancestry pre paywall…
Poppins: Dorothy Mary Smyth, Dorothy Ella Hunt and Joan Dorothy Davies; They shared coincidental birthdays with DJR ie. 18/7/1920 that’s all so nothing to get excited about. My inclusion of Joan Dorothy in the mix be, because I’m sort of confident that Doff was inclined to use an alternate less common handle than Dorothy. You’ll recall during her years at Bute, neighbours knew her only by Lockyer; folks were likely to have remembed a common name like Dorothy surely.
@Poppins It was there with a blank mother’s maiden name just before I made my las comment. Their computer system is having troubles or they changed the internal handling of the 100 year restriction or death (the later applies). The prov site might have it.
…according to Richard D. who has visited Bute of late, the wife of Geoff Lockyer was known to locals as blondie, suggestion being that her dark hair had been bleached or dyed.
@ Pat
At a quick glance, Cecil Claude Clarence Moebus is listed in the electoral rolls for the Wimmera (1930s), Riverina (1949) and Mallee electorates (1960s). There is a Jean Robertson listed in Riverina for 1954. It. could all be worth a closer look…
There is also a Dorothy Jean Robertson in Riverina but the first listing is for 1943 – so I don’t think that’s our DJR.
Poppins….but t’was I, not interloper Lord CoB who told the doubters that JCB “the barman fella” was not Dorothy’s dad. Credit where credit’s due svp!
Jo: C. C. C. Moebus bn. 1911 Mildura. WW2 AIF Wollongong 1940 NX33193 RAASC. Trade & calling baker. POW Singapore – Japan 1942-45. Oldest living WW2 POW (?). Died 2007 aged 97 Melbourne/Springvale. How does Cec fit in did I miss sonething?
@ Johnno – he married Doff’s cousin. Pat thinks she may have gone to stay with the Moebus, Garrett or Hall families after leaving Geoff Lockyer. CCC Moebus is a very distinctive name, so easier to check… Certainly a long life!
Jo: Trixie & Cecil Moebus begat David Ian in ’52 plus two others despite them being a little ancient at 37 and 41. Trixie nee Hall turns out to be my missing (F)loris Jean hence grounds for confusion. Hall sorted now but there’s the remote possibility of the couple having offered sanction to a fleeing felon in Jean Dorothy; So can’t let them off the hook if such can be the case.
…Cecil of Moebus bakery Mildura had a younger bruder Earl who died accidently while serving with the RAAF in Bairnsdale 1942 and who was intered in there. His mutter Mary Ann and farter Frederick Richard of Mildura (worlds longest bar) both passed away in ’54 a few months apart from memory. While Cecil who now seems to have died in a Mildura nursing home, outlived his Trixie who passed in 1988 at a respectable 73 at an undisclosed place. All these interesting diversions being part of a fruitless quest for information on Dorothy Robertson, part player with her ex husband Carl Webb, a one time top candidate for Gerry Feltus ‘The Unknown Man of Somerton Beach’ NB: Can’t locate Trixie nor son David who are supposed to be at Nicols Pt. but Daisy Dickeson/Hall? 1953 shows up on the site at Fund a Grave.
Jo: since emigrating to South Australia from Germany around 1845, the Moebus name had by the late Colonial period managed to spread far and wide, not only in the settled eastern states but also the rural back blocks ie., Kadina in S.A. and even way over to the W.A. beach hub of Cottesloe for instance. Whatsmore, despite their German origins, the Moebus families didn’t shirk when the whips were cracking in 1914 and 1939, even Ivy from Wooloomoolooo and Leigh from Mebun stepped up. Howzat girls?
@ Nick,
I don’t have access to electoral rolls, and newspapers on Trove mostly stop in 1954, so I’m on the trail of Dorothy’s school years.
You have posted John Comber Robertson’s electoral rolls addresses a while ago, and according to them they were living in Brunswick West after leaving Beeac, although the years seeem to be wrong (given that Phyllis was born in Beeac in 1925), so Nick, would you be kind to clarify this?
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/31/carl-webb-dorothy-jean-robertsons-marriage-certificate
“Dorothy Jean Robertson’s Parents
John Comber (‘Jack’) Robertson was born in 1894 Omeo, Victoria to Robert Robertson and Mary Kate Comber (Australia Birth Index), and died on 6 Jan 1989 (“retired caretaker”). He appears on the Victoria Electoral rolls for 1919 (Beeac, Corangamite), 1922, 1925, 1927, 1928, 1931 (Brunswick West, Bourke), then a gap to 1954 (Essendon North, Lalor), 1963 (1963 St Kilda North, Isaacs), 1968, 1972, 1977 (Fawkner, Burke), and 1980.”
We know that they were living around the Zoo, Royal Park area (Brunswick West) before moving to O’Gilpin’s lodge at 32 Winmalee Road, Balwin around 1935-36.
Based on this information I have been looking for Dorothy in the Brunswick West area. I have found a D. Robertson, a student at Domestic Arts school, competing at the age 14-15:
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Tue 13 Nov 1934
Page 15
COMBINED BRUNSWICK SCHOOLS.
COMBINED BRUNSWICK
SCHOOLS.
Sports at the Oval.
On Brunswick oval yesterday the
combined schools of Brunswick held their
Centenary sports. There was an im
mense crowd of children, and a fair num
ber of parents and friends. Fourteen
schools took part, and they are indicated
in the appended results by initials:—.
North-West Brunswick, Central Bruns-
wick, North Brunswick, West Brunswick,
Brunswick Technical School, South-
West Brunswick, East Brunswick;
Domestic Arts, South Brunswick,
St. Ambrose (Boys), St. Ambrose
(Girls), St. Margaret Mary’s, Marist
Bros., Holy Family. The marching of
thc girts was a particularly impressive
feature. The grand aggregate boys’,
prize, a cup, was won by North Bruns-
wick, 95 ½ points. The aggregate boys’
cup went to St. Ambrose, 49; that fop
the girls to North Brunswick, 54 ½.
Principal results:—
Boys’ Chnroplonshlp, 100 yards, –Open under
15: R. HlckIngbotham (N.W.B.), 1; H..Pepper
(S.B.), 2; J. Purcell (St.M.M.), 3. Under 10,
80 yards: A. Bird (N.B.), 1; C. Brown (S.B ),
2: G. Martin (E.B.). 10-11 Years, 80
yards: T. Farrell (St.A.), 1; J. Newell
(S.W.B.). 2; N. Laurenson (N.B.), 3, 11-12
Years, 80 yards: P. Hector (St.A.) 1; E.
Gollop (C.B.), 2; J. Nunn (S.W.B.l, 3. 100
Yards,, 12-13 yenrn: J. Hoare (St.A.), 1; J.
Purcell (S.M.M.), 2; R. Arrowsmith (W.B.),
3. Do., 13-14 years: S.Silk (B. Tech.), 1;
K. Burgess (M. Bros.), 2; H. Pepper (S.B.),
3. Do., 14-15 years: S. Game (S.B.), 1: G.
Bvans (St.A,), 2: V. Connell (N.B.), 3. Relay.
under 15: North Brunswick, 1: Central Bruns-
wick, 2; South Brunswick, 3. Under 13: North
Brunswick, 1; Central Brunswick, 2; South
Brunswick, 3. High Jump, under 13: K.
Hector (St. Am.) and A. Bull (M. Bros.),
equal, l; R. Arrowsmith (W.B.). 3. Do..
under I5: V. Ebbels (S.W.B.) and D. Gray
B. Tech.), equal, 1; C. Moore (M. Bros.),
3. Tunnel, under 13: Central Brunswick, 1,
Erunewick Technical, 2; South Brunswick, 3.
Tunnel, under 15: South Brunswick, 1; St. Am.
brose, 2: West Brunswick, 3. Bicycle Race,
under I3: H. Dalton (St. Am.), 1; — Sar-
gnt (N.B.) 2; J. Cash (B. Tech.), 3. Do.,’
under 15: W. Bishop (B. Tech.), 1; B.
McGlvern (St. Am.), 2; N. McKlnnon (W.B.), ‘
3. Marching: South Brunswick, 1; North
Brunswick, 2; St. Ambrose, 3.
Girls’ Cham-
plonshlp, 80 yards.— Under 15: E. Eastwood
(C.B.), 1; F. Harris (N.B.), 2: V. Victor
(Holy F.), 3. 60 Yards, under 10: B. Fraser
(W.B.), 1; M Cornall (N.B.) and M. El-
very (S.B.), equal, 2. 60 Yards, 10-11 years:
E. Punton (C.B.). 1: B. Marchment (W.B.).
2; S. McDonald (H.F.), 3. Do., 11-12 years:
J. Barnes (C.B.), 1; N. Geary (N.B.), 2;
S. Warren (E.B.). 3. 80 Yards, 12-13 years:
A. Ryland (St.M.M.), 1: P. Toon (S.B.), 2;
H. Carter (C.B.). 3. Do.. 13-14 years: C..
Holden (D. Arts), 1; P. Geary (N.B.). 2:
G. Watklns (B.B.). 3. Do., 14-15: F. Harrlis
(N.B.), 1: A. Batty (S.B.), 2; D. ROBERTSON
(Dom. Arts), 3. Relay, under 13: North
Brunswick, 1: South Brunswick, 2: Central
Brunswick, 3. Overhead, under 15: North
Brunswick, 1: East Brunswick, 2; West Bruns
wick, 3. Marching: Domestic Arts, 1: St.
Margaret-Mary’s, 2; Bouth Brunswick, 3.
Points were awarded: — North Brunswlck, 95 ½ :
South Brunswick, 56 ½: St. Ambrose. 49 ½;
Central Brunswick, 43; Enst Brunswick, 34 ½ :
Domestic Arts, 24; West Brunswick, 23; Tech-
nical School, 10; St. Margaret-Mary’s, 16;
South-West Brunswlck, 12; Marist Brothers,.
12; North-West Brunswick, 7; Holy Family,
4.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205082106
“Brunswick East High School
Opened in 1925 as Brunswick Domestic Arts School in Albert Street. In 1969 it was rebadged as Brunswick Girls High, and when boys were admitted in 1976 it became Brunswick East High School. In 1993 it was ‘merged’ with Brunswick Technical and Brunswick High to form the dual campus Brunswick Secondary College. The unlucky third school was Brunswick East High, which was closed and sold ($911,000). The former school was demolished to make way for a housing estate.”
http://learningfromthepast.com.au/brunswick-east-high-school/
I couldn’t help thinking that Albet Street is parallel to Glenlyon Road where, Gerald, Freda and Carl were living around 1940!
John Comber Robertson was the overseer at the Victorian Benevolent Home, Royal Park, from at least 30 June 1934 to at least 11 July 1935.
The Age (Melbourne, Vic)
30 June 1934
Page 22
WOOD STOLEN FROM BENEVOLENT
HOME.
An Inmate’s Lapse.
George Darling, 54 years, an Inmate of
the Victorian Home at Royal Park and an
invalid pensioner, was charged before the
Carlton bench yesterday with having stolen
nine piecs of wood, the property of the bene-
volent home.
John Buchanan, pastry cook, Sydney-road,
Brunswick, said that on 25th inst. accused sold
him nine pieces of wood, each four feet in
length, for 1/6.
JOHN ROBERTSON, overseer at the home, said
he gave accused instructions to deliver a load
of wood to a branch of the home In Latrobe-
street and also four trays to Buchanan’s
shop.
Mr. O’Callaghan, P.M., said it was pittiable
to see a man of accused’s age, apparently in
ill-health, in such a position.
Accused was sentenced to detention until
the rising of the court.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204815786
The Age (Melbourne, Vic)
Thu 11 Jul 1935
Page 5
POLICE COURTS.
Royal Park Wardsman Fined.
At Carlton court Robert Taylor, 34
years, wardsman, was proceeded against
for having on 5th July, at Royal Park, as-
saulted John Comber Robertson.
Robertson said he was overseer at the
Victorian Homes, Royal Park. At 7 p.m.
on Friday last he was on duty and was mak-
ing his usual inspection of the wards. He
saw Taylor standing outside No. 9 ward.
Taylor was drunk, and was making a
nuisance of himself. When witness re-
monstrated with him, Taylor agreed to go
to bed. As they turned to leave the corri-
dor accused struck him (witness) a violent
blow on the jaw, which knocked him off
his feet.
Taylor informed the bench that on Friday
he had been on duty at the Victorian Home,
which was a home for the aged and infirm,
from 6 a.m. to 5 p.m. At 7 p.m. he sought
leave from Robertson, but was refused. Ro-
bertson began to abuse him, and then
“trouble started.”
Taylor was fined £1, in default, three
days’ imprisonment.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203985670
In 1936 he took over occupation of O’Gilpin’s gate lodge as overseer or caretaker.
“The first occupant of the gate lodge was Percy Graham, who served in the capacity of caretaker or property overseer while construction was still in progress. Born in Euroa, Graham had previously worked in the branch of Gilpin’s drapery
store in that town; at the time that he moved into the new gate lodge at Idylwylde, Graham’s wife and four children were also employed by Gilpin, in the firm’s city warehouse. One of Graham’s sons, Jim, slept in the main house for several months during 1936 at the insistence of Gilpin himself, who was to embark upon an extended overseas trip and expressed concern that his still-incomplete mansion – barely visible from the gate lodge – should not be left unattended in his absence. However, on Gilpin’s return, he and Percy Graham fell out over a matter involving birds on the property, and the family subsequently moved out of the gate lodge. The position of caretaker or overseer was later filled by a MR. ROBERTSON who, presumably, took over occupation of the gate lodge.”
CITY OF BOROONDARA
BALWYN AND
BALWYN NORTH
HERITAGE STUDY
(INCORPORATING DEEPDENE & GREYTHORN)
prepared for
CITY OF BOROONDARA
FINAL DRAFT REPORT: August 2015
https://www.boroondara.vic.gov.au/media/18066/download?inline=
@Sanders, fair enough, merit where merit’s due, but can you actually confirm the little fella’s identity- …. many clues there, in the War, jail time, criminal records ….. h’mm … it isn’t so until it’s so.
Poppins: You’ve lost me there mate. “it isn’t so until it’s so”. What isn’t pray tell?
and who’s the “little fella?”
@ Pat – Brunswick Domestic Arts School would be a good fit geographically & socially. The Domestic Arts Schools were like girls’ technical schools. I think the last ones closed in the 1980s! They weren’t always as reactionary as they sound. I did some interviews a while ago with an ex student of one of them, they described fierce old feminist, teachers & feisty working class students.
A few days ago I cycled past where 274 Domain Road/Gowan Brae once was. It would have been a very sizeable property (Tristan Buesst owned three large properties on Domain Road at different times). When I swung out onto Darling Street, to cycle up to Toorak Road (main road where the shops & post office are), I realised that the address given by Jack Keane’s referee for his RAAF application was the shop facing me… There are lots of proximities…
I’ll try to check when I’ve a moment if there’s a 1950s Riverina link between “Jean Robertson” & the Moebus family.
Poppins….there was a Junior girl Dorothy Robertson enrolled at St. Michael’s C of E Girls Grammar School, St. Kilda circa. 1925; So Some chance there if not Brunswick and F. Hall at Mildura which was never a goer for mine. 32 Charnwood Road Street St. Kilda was yet another address given by JCR some time after his SS farm at Beeac had failed. At that time he was possibly using the alternate name John Coomber (sans Comber) Robertson.
@Pat If you have a Family History Center run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints near you then they will have computers with access to the Ancestry Library Edition or their own membership for you to search Australian electoral rolls and other Australian records they host.
@ Jo
Thanks for all your effort!
@ Curio
I have already checked them, but they are not offering the online service atm. Thanks!
@ All
While browsing NAA files I came acrross this letter from J.C. Robertson’s sister Maude and and I thought it was interesting because of the way she wrote the E, just like JEstyn.
https://imgur.com/a/UkdDftI
@Curio, no worries, thanks for the info update.
@Sanders, the little fella is the one who sent the letters, the barman. It hasn’t been proven definitively that it wasn’t John Comber Robertson. It’s likely that it’s not, hey, but needs to be proven to verify, in my opinion, because that is what I do, obsess. I quite like David Morgan’s theory, highly possible too, re the Thornville’s. I for one am looking to confirm or deny it. The possible candidates were both 27 at the time, had been to War and named JC Robertson, so …….. and one came back peculiar after the War.
Found a most fascinating Lieutenant John Charles Robertson from Newtown in Geelong …. he had a daughter and two sons, the schoolgirl at swanston St School may be his child, not sure yet, still waiting to hear back. His files haven’t been digitised, a lot of ’em too …… I must resist the temptation to pop them in a shopping trolley and wheel them out …. may the lord give me strength.
Not only Maude’s big E who also does her $ like a dollar sign; did you also notice that your well plotted Estyn Dick Jones does the JEStyn E too. May pay to mention in passing, that his Geordie D for Dick is identical on with Dorothy’s signature D on the marriage certificate, the one she made such a mess of and that nobody picked up on. Hate to admit it Pat o rato but, you’re certainly leaving the other FB girls and
fellas in the dark when comes to bright new initiatives.
Poppins: David who?….I honestly can’t recall any Thornbirds or similar in earlier conversations, so sorry to be a bother but, if you could give a brief run down on their part in their involvement, that’d be cool…thanks.
Poppins : Also interesting but sad, is that Lt. JCR of Geelong was later KIA in Malaya Jan. ’42 as I’m sure I covered in detail seems like a decade ago. More interesting still, but otherwise of no relevance be that as Lt. Col. Robertson MC VD he was C.O. of 2/29 btn. AIF and as such Roy Webb’s Commanding officer…If you really need to find the “little fella” JCR, I’d go for the one from Charlton Vic. who was wounded and gassed, reason being that he was 5′ 5″ aat., and in 1922 was himself aged 27 as stated in the conviction notice. What a coincidence eh mate?
….and if you missed that Popsie, then you also missed the big one with General Robertson and Chief Justice Bill Webb, flying into Essendon on 29 November ’48 (SM D day – I) , including staff which marked ending of the war crimes trials in japan. I did mention that, according to the Franklin Uni. bio on Sir William Webb, his staff and field operatives included an inordinant number of Webbs. I’m not sure what time the military flight arrived, but I dare any S.A. pax of that name or any other had enough time get to Spencer Street just in time catch the Overlander to Adelaide. I promised myself I wouldn’t waffle on about the Lion brand Japanese flouride toothpaste nor SM’s ‘jap happy’ leg tanning briefs again so I shan’t.
It’s her! It’s Dorothy …….. wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee
https://imgur.com/m6AsCsO
https://imgur.com/gsC3CwJ
Still got more to look through, that one just popped out at m, will see what else I can find here.
Poppins: very well done! I had a quick snoop for 240 Myers St, nothing much going on there apart from a nice billiard table being sold from there in 1928, though. But maybe more will turn up…
Poppins: my two best John C. (Charles) shortish and of the right mid 1890s vintage namely 4878 of Coburg (bn. Charlton) and 2440 of Beech Forest Vic.(bn.Colac), both Infantry diggers on the Western Front and pre war labouring background. First aforesaid was wounded & gassed × 3 and t’other wounded and captured by the bosches. No later happy marriages to report and only remaining search avenues would seem to be John and Emma parents of 4878 then Thomas Hector Robertson father of 2440. You’ll have spotted another Mebun chap John Charles William Robertson who died conveniently in 1923 (could be 4878) but, no hint of any war service plus William’s a worry except for Emma Robertson nee Williams of course. Good hunting.
Way to go Popins! Any chance Doff’ll be giving interviews. Paul Lawson was at 103 and he’d been deaf as a beetle for a decade. GC knew some sign language it seems.
@ Poppins – brilliant! Well done! So Dorothy was only in Geelong for a few weeks – enrolling at Swanston Street on 2 February 1930 at 9 years old and then leaving for Melbourne on 25 February, (to Brunswick). So Pat’s Brunswick Domestic Arts School student of 1934 is also likely to be Dorothy! (Third placed runner in the inter school 80 yards race 14-15 year olds).
These are JCR’s electoral roll details from Nick from an earlier post:
John Comber (‘Jack’) Robertson was born in 1894 Omeo, Victoria to Robert Robertson and Mary Kate Comber (Australia Birth Index), and died on 6 Jan 1989 (“retired caretaker”). He appears on the Victoria Electoral rolls for 1919 (Beeac, Corangamite), 1922, 1925, 1927, 1928, 1931 (Brunswick West, Bourke), then a gap to 1954 (Essendon North, Lalor), 1963 (1963 St Kilda North, Isaacs), 1968, 1972, 1977 (Fawkner, Burke), and 1980.
I can’t see any pupil registers for Brunswick Domestic Arts School listed on the PROV site. Here’s a quick Trove link re Domestic Arts Schools opening in the 1920s:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2021830
And a link to a photo pre demolition in 2015:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10154196693724186&set=p.10154196693724186
I think Roger Holdsworth, Melbourne PBS Radio Presenter for the Sunday arvo Global Village show used to teach at the school when it was Brunswick Girls High School!
Meanwhile, the Swanston Street Geelong Primary School is now an acute psychiatric facility!
http://learningfromthepast.com.au/geelong-primary-school-swanston-street/
@ Pat – Unfortunately there is a gap in Cecil and Floris Jean Moebus’ electoral roll records. In 1949 they are at Foster Street Carelligo and Cecil is a baker. They next appear in 1963 in Mildura where they have a milk bar at 58 Hazeldine Street and are there for subsequent years. Meanwhile the Jean Robertson I thought looked interesting is at 50 Finley Street; Finley – so not in the hood. There are hundreds of Dorothy Jean Robertsons on the electoral roll. The idea of having family names to try and connect one of them to is still a good one!
@ Poppins,
Brava! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Gotta be careful Poppins, I seem to recall there being a John Charles Robertson, married to Margaret Dorothy Aitkins living in nearby Pakinton St. at the time of his inlistment. Yep I just mentioned him, the Colonel that died in Malaya 1941.As yet I haven’t gone looking to see if he had a daughter Dorothy Jean so I’ll leave that up to you girls. Sure hope your luck holds out and don’t forget to check student rolls for1925 at Michael’s St. Kilda, you never know!
….a quick look in on Margaret Robertson at Geelong cemetery doesn’t show a daughter Dorothy Jean on her tombstone.
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic. : 1920 – 1942)
Wed 26 Apr 1939
Page 3
Social notes
Mr. and Mrs. Charles Williams, of
Camberwell, MRS. JOHN ROBERTSON, OF
BALWYN, and Messrs. A. Johnson, of
Ballarat, and A. Grant, of Melbourne,
have all returned after being guests
at the Johnson-Hall wedding.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268784192
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic. : 1920 – 1942)
Fri 17 Jun 1938
Page 3
Women’s Aims, Arts And Interests
——(Conducted by “ESTELLE”) ——
Dresses Noted At The Gymkhana
Beautiful weather prevailed for
the eighth annual Mildura Gymkhana
held at the racecourse on the King’s
birthday. Many visitors from the
surrounding districts. attended, and
there was a bright show of color on
the grandstand and lawns, when the
season’s latest autumn models were
displayed between events. Ultra-
modern millinery was a special fea
ture of the dress parade.
MRS. J. ROBERTSON (MELBOURNE), blue
angora wool costume, felt hat, blue
and white bow and upturned brim;
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268776060
Dorothy’s cousin Patricia Hall 15th birthday note.
Myrl Hold of Myers St., Geelong.
Ross Crick, Nichols’ Point (I suppose not related to ‘our’ Cricks)
Ooops.
Birthday
League
A Corner for the Children
“Estelle” is conducting a
Birthday League Corner on the
Social Page each Wednesday,
and would be pieased if intending
members send along their
names, age, and date of birthdays
for the month of March.
“Estelle” has pleasure in
wishing many Happy Returns on
the Day to the following mem
bers, whose birthdays take place
in the month of March: —
George Jacobson, Belar Ave
nue, Irymple. who will be 7 years
on March 15.
Myrl Hold, MYERS STREET, GEELONG,
who was 7 years on
March 1.
Arthur Harpin, of Mildura,
who will he 10 years on March 22.
Bobbie Grissold, Lemon Avenue,
Mildura, who was 6 years
on March 11.
Mary Whitecross, of Orange
Avenue, who will he 7 years on
March 16.
Jessie Irish, of The Crescent,
who will be 13 years on March 16.
Margaret Dennet, Irymple
Avenue, who willbe 1 year today
Leslie Chiswell, Irymple, who
PATRICIA HALL, Lemon Avenue,
Mildura. who is 15 years old today.
Malcolm Hayes, Magnolia Avenue,
who is 12 years old today.
Daphne and Erwyn Langhorne
(twins), Twelfth Street, who
were 11 years old on March 6.
Eric Gerald Alexander, Mildura,
whose birthday is today.
Cyril John and Gordon
Thomas Henderson (twins), Fifteenth
Street, Mildura, who were
7 years on March 6.
Eilleen Quinton, ot Mildura,
who was 7 years on March 2.
Queenie Beryl Lloyd, Orange
Avenue, who was 9 years on
March 8.
Margaret Betty Maugham,
who was 2 years on March 10.
ROSS CRICK, Irymple Avenue,
Nichols’ Point, who was 2 years
on March 2.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/264359436
Schools of Domestic Arts (1913) South Melbourne School of Domestic Arts (1924 – 1930) Bendigo School of Domestic Arts (1924 – 1930) Ballarat School of Domestic Arts (1924 – 1930); Brunswick School of Domestic Arts (1924 – 1930) Camberwell East School of Domestic Arts (1928 – 1930)
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/0E18136D-F3C0-11E9-AE98-B7ED3887FA75
Dorothy Jean Robertson’s Baptism Church Record
https://imgur.com/a/tLWe0Xa
Oops, forgot Alice! (sorry, Nick).
https://imgur.com/a/j8THqsB
It’s a shame it was such a short stay at the school, alas and woe, there’ll be no school photos from there. Phooey. Good to see name of previous school though, Cundare North, could be something there from 1926 to 1929. It was interesting in the school registers to see a child starting about age 5 and leaving at 9, “Destination Chemist”.
And the award for most outstanding performance in the field of Subertfuge and Feigning Ignorance goes to …… (the envelope, please) ….. Mr John Sanders for his performance in “David Who?” The crowd erupts in applause as Mr Sanders makes his way to the stage to accept the award.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/0E18136D-F3C0-11E9-AE98-B7ED3887FA75
@ Poppins- this looks more like Education Department correspondence but it does cover Brunswick Domestic Arts School and runs to 1930, so there’s a small chance that there could be an enrolment record for Dorothy… my guess is that she probably went to a local primary school first…
https://placesofpride.awm.gov.au/memorials/161411
All I can find on Cundare North State School, a WWI roll of honour. So there must still be an associated building…
Ploppins: gosh thanks and so sorry about David Morgan. So anyway what happened to my big smiling face and all; thought that was your bag!
Tried to post this earlier but I don’t think it got through.
Sands & McDougall Victoria 1920 – 3 John C Robertsons:
123 Wright St, S M
Off 240 Drummond Street, Carl
Creswick Road, Ballt
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE13852804&file=FL21624920&mode=browse
S & M 1925 – 3 John C Robertsons:
Off 240 Drummond Street, Carl
3 Claremont Av, Geelong
36 Philipson St, S M
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE14210804&file=FL21836537&mode=browse
S & M 1930 – 2 John C Robertsons:
44 Rathdown St, Carl
3 Claremont Av, Geelong
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE14133704&file=FL20137632&mode=browse
Of course there are John Robertsons, J Robertson and J C Robertsons as well.
One Ernest Burnett is listed at 240 Myers St, Geelong in 1930:
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE14133704&file=FL20137207&mode=browse
Possibly this gent? From The Age, Wed 5 Sep 1951, Page 21:
“ERNEST ARNOLD BURNETT,
deceased. —Notice is hereby given
that ail persons having CLAIMS
against the PROPERTY or estate
of Ernest Arnold Burnett, late of
81 Fltzroy-street. Geelong, Post
master, deceased, who died on the
30th day of January. 1951…”
…. Coincidence, nothing more, but, Lt. Col. John Charles Robertson’s wife Margaret Dorothy (m. 1922) was known as Dot or Dos and during depression years 30s they lived cnr. Sharp and Pakington St. Chilwell (Newtown), just a stone’s throw from Myers St. There were three kids, an as yet un-named daughter and two sons, one of whom shares a birthday 18/7 with our Doff, all attending nearby Chilwell State School c. 20s. Alexander John (Jock) and William Cargill (Cargi) served in WW2, one a POW and both passed in 2011 at Geelong…..All the above in case anyone needs to know notwithstanding, as with countless other Robertson ‘links’, it has no likely connection to the ongoing SM investigations.
Poppins: ready set go and its my turn. How in the dickens did you get to thinking there may have been something in David MORGAN’s wild guess in re Doff’s dad boarding with the Thornville’s (?) for ten years prior to his inlistment aged 20.
Having finally managed to get a good XXX view of Doff’s blurred imgur 1930 school attendance record including attachment details of JCR’s farming at Nth Cundare, it seals the deal so BRAVA! with hand clapping all round and three cheers too.
1931 electoral roll – John Comber Robertson – 28 Mincha Street Brunswick, overseer. Previously farmer North Cundare. The next entry is for 1954, Windsor Street, Essendon, supervisor.
My bet would be Dorothy attended Brunswick South West Primary School, 250m from Mincha Street, which opened in 1926, followed by Brunswick Domestic Arts School. From their Facebook page it looks as though Brunswick South West took annual school photos in the 1930s (at least in 1933 and 1934)!
https://ehive.com/collections/6420/objects/1026921/50th-anniversary-of-the-brunswick-south-west-state-school-1927-1977
There could be photos in this book… there is a copy at the Royal Historical Society, 239 A’Beckett Street, Melbourne.
Good on ya Lord CoB, you’ve solved the mystery of Dorothy’s 240 Myers Street addy …. completely brilliant! Her Aunt and Uncle’s home, Maude and Ernie.
Poppins: Just did a recce over at the old Charles place “Thornville’, Windermere via Ballarat. John (bn. 1850) and Sarah had four sons, James, John Jr., J.S. and E.H., last initialed pair serving overseas when Sr. died after a long illness in 1917. And seems that mum and James stayed on alone until the boys came home. Out of courtesy I didn’t carry on much beyond that, although J. S. died at Ballarat in ’52 and an E. H. at Bairndale in ’57. Can’t imagine JCR having boarded with the Charles’ for before the war, as David Martin confidently predicted but, stranger things have happened.
@ Poppins and Lord CoB,
Well spotted! You can search Burnett on here and both Ernest and Maud are listed.
http://zades.com.au/gandd/index.php/databases/gddbs
@Jo, wowee, great find of 28 Mincha Street …. you’d be spot on with that school, Brunswick South West Primary School, good on ya …. h’mm, chance of a school photo! I’ll see if Prov Vic has the Pupil Register and will pop in there for sure …. should also have her destination after school too!
I see now that it was our old friend David Morgan who introduced us to the notion that JCR was a perverted portraitist and vulgar versifier back on August 19.
John Sanders jumped on this possibility a mere couple of hours after Dave’s comment appeared.
“Certainly seems like J. C. Robertson, there being no others similar from WW1 and the age is right. You’ll be aware of course that he was married at time, Dorothy being two years old in 1922 so something doesn’t add up. I also brought up John Comber’s having contracted Syphilis on leave in Cairo during his service and was still receiving treatment on discharge in Melbourne at the time, from memory.”
For this ugly piece of disinformation I give JS “credit where credit’s due” – an apology is required forthwith svp Edward!
It must must have been a fever dream that induced me to think I had taken any part in that debate. At least I now understand what all this “Thornville” stuff is all about – the address JCR gave in Burrumbeet Road, Cardigan (near Ballarat), home of James and Ruby Charles, for his Lease Application.
To remind punters from The Ballarat Star, Friday 20 June 1919:
“Consideration was yesterday given by the
Local Land Officer (Mr C. J. Joy) to
three applications for land under the
Discharged Soldiers’ Settlement Acts.
John Comber Robertson applied for 153
acres of the area known as Mack’s land
at Wilgal South, and Ernest Arnold
Burnell applied for 152 acres in the
same locality. Both applications were
recommended and advances were made
for stock, buildings, materials, etc.”
Messrs Charles Bros appear to have bred sheep. Terrible story about the two Charles boys drowning at Queenscliff in 1933*, a bit reminiscent of Fred Pruszinski’s sad demise in 1953. CM readers with good memories will remember that Richard Pruszinski Snr had lost another son, Walter aged 5, killed by a lorry in 1934.
* https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205504807?searchTerm=thornville%20cardigan
I don’t agree with Mr M that the article in The Age implies that pervy JCR lived with this married woman for ten years. It said that he had stayed at her place at some point and she “knew him” for ten years. The young woman who had also stayed at her place seems to have been resident in Kensington. a hop skip and jump from Flemington Racecourse, and very close to West Melbourne where Lord CoB himself stayed for a couple of weeks in 1985, at the budget Miami Hotel on Hawke Street, which is still going strong if Google Maps is to be believed, although way more pricy than in those more innocent days (in Oz at least).
Given the pervy John C Robertson’s occupation of barman and the location of Melbourne I really don’t think it was our John Comber but who knows?
What was he accused of at the Court of Petty Sessions in 1924? Pray spill the beans.
Of course Ernest Arnold “Burnell”, who applied for land in the same vicinity as JCR in 1919, as mentioned in the quote from the Ballarat Star in my post above, should be Burnett – the very same gent who Doff stayed with in Geelong and who Poppins informs me was hubby to John Comber’s sister Maude, the Postmaster who died in 1951.
Poppins: looks like Ernest Burnett married Maud Easton Robertson upon his RTA from Egypt in late 1918 and the following year he put in for a Soldiers Settlement assisistance grant, he having been a farmer before inlistment in 1915. Seems that both Ernie and his brother-in-law JCR were both forced to give up their respective land holdings in late 1929/30 (drought) and head back into mainstream society (Geelong & Melbourne), as the great depression took hold…Jo’s well documented move to Brunswick takes over from there and continues through to about the time of Maud’s passing in 1946 by which stage Carl & Doff were about to call the whole thing off. NB: You’ll find one of t’other John Charles Robertsons also on the PROV SS lists.
….Joseph Stanley (farmer) & Edward Harold (chemist), 59th Btn & 5 Fld. Amb. be the two un named Charles boys from Windermere what went to war and done their country proud.
Poppins: regarding Dave Morgan’s Sarah Charles ‘Thornville’ Windermere theory,
I seem to recall that Ernie Burnett had himself farmed out at Windermere. So it seems that the three families of Robertson, Burnett and Charles, were maybe known to each other back before Doff was born. You wouldn’t believe it could happen for ‘attic’ but, there were actually two other John Charles, one being of the same 1851-1917 vintage from Geelong who, with wife Margaret begat two girls Renie and Annie. The other a son of first aforesaid who lost his own sons in a 1933 drowning accident. Could it be that Dave Morgan was suggesting that Maggie Charles up and moved to Kensington after Pop’s passing.
@Sanders, re your “how the dickens” – It’s an interesting theory. Yes, why is his name on the lease as C/O … gotta find out. Will look into all those JC Robertson’s of yours and @LordCob’s, will take a little while to produce my findings.
https://imgur.com/o05Mo0Z
The Thornville mystery has been solved.
https://imgur.com/44g2iDF
Lord CuB: “ugly piece of Disinformation” How so? … If it’s ado about JCR’ s having contracted the dreaded Cairo rose (VDSC) whilst on active service and for which he spent 56 days under treatment at 2ASH (Aust Syphilus. Hosp.) before then being discharged in 9/1/19 and RTA on 15th inst..then you’ve got a lot to learn about the need for ongoing treatment post discharge. No apologies necessary from JS and, naturally none expected from in return!
…As an aside Bob, you’ve been on for ages about your adventures back to the land of your birth in ’82 and ’85; How’s about telling your fans about what you got up to on the earlier visit to Melbourne in ’67. Sure Pops, Jo and Co. would love to Know.
I posted a comment earlier on JCR, Ern and Maude Burnett that I’m not sure got through so I’ll wait and see and maybe repost.
No apology from John Sanders for his deliberate mischief making back in August? Tut, tut!
More on the Charles family:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1636305?searchTerm=%22thornville%22%20windermere
“CHARLES.—On the 15th July, at his residence,
Thornville, Windermere, John, beloved husband
of Sarah Charles, father of John Charles (of
Cressy), James (of Windermere), E. H, and J. S.
(on active service), beloved brother of Robert
William (of Geelong), and Mrs. Nicholson (of
Ascotvale), after a lingering illness, aged 67
years.”
Seems like Cardigan and Windermere were used interchangeably as the address for Thornville.
Link to the 5 pages of john Comber’s purchase lease application:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/FE505AFA-F911-11E9-AE98-036C56F2E101?image=1
On page three he gives his address as 603 Creswick Road, Ballarat, not Thornville which was a C/O address. The lease was cancelled (declared void) due to non payment in 1930 (see p5).
Odd story about some railway robberies involving someone who lived at 603 Creswick Road in 1922:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213029180?searchTerm=%22603%20creswick%20road%22%20ballarat
JCR used to work as a railway porter!
Ernest Arnold Burnett’s purchase lease application – address given as Roslyn, Creswick Road:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/123966BC-F912-11E9-AE98-43F2615E4D25?image=1
But on p4 Ern states that as owner of the Creswick Road property he was unable to sell it and “not being prepared to sacrifice it” he was “reluctantly compelled to relinquish all rights to the said approved land” at Wilgul South. So he never became a farmer there like JCR. He also said earlier that his sister, Frances Harding, assists in his house “for her support” as she was living apart from her husband.
Do your homework john Sanders before you spout your nonsense!
Sands & McDougall Victoria 1920 listing of John C Robertson and Ernest A Burnett at Creswick Road (at bottom of entry for West Side below Gregory Street). No house name or street number given for either – was ‘Roslyn’ the same address as no 603?
john Charles Robertson also put in for some land after WW1, in Karawinna:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/1FE66B03-F913-11E9-AE98-C714679AC46F?image=8
Ernest A Burnett had a Geelong address in 1925 according to S & M – 30 Bourke Crescent (the other Ernest A Burnett – né Bernstein – in St Kilda was the son of Jacob Bernstein of Ballarat):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3931133?searchTerm=%22ernest%20burnett%22%20jacob%20bernstein
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/150067392?searchTerm=%22jacob%20bernstein%22%20ballarat
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE14210804&file=FL21837284&mode=browse
So Ruby Charles was Robina, John Comber’s sister?
Robert William Charles’ NAA file is available. Poor fella was killed in action in Belgium.
Title
Charles Robert William : SERN 1685 : POB Ballarat VIC : POE Geelong VIC : NOK W Charles M
Contents range
circa 1914 – circa 1920
Series number
B2455
Control symbol
CHARLES R W
Access status
Open
Item ID
3235734
@John Sanders
You have to apologise because you stated in August that pervy John C Robertson was our JCR! To quote you again “Certainly seems like J. C. Robertson, there being no others similar from WW1 and the age is right.” You were referring to John Comber cobber!
As for 1967, as an 8 year old I was probably playing cricket on Henry Newbolt’s Close in Clifton, Bristol (see our La Buse confab – I still haven’t had a pat on the back for clearing up all those mysteries!). Not sure what shameful deed an 8 year old might be doing in Melbourne that year. I don’t know whether to be flattered or horrified that you think I’m a fellow Aussie. My parents would certainly have been shocked!
“And England’s far, and Honour a name,
But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks:
“Play up! play up! and play the game!””
Don’t know why this this comment won’t go through (3rd attempt):
I noticed in John Comber’s NAA file that in 1914 his sister Maude gave her address as Windermere, which is just to the west of Cardigan where the Charles’s lived. JCR’s occupation is given as railway porter. Later when in 1919 she is informing of her name change after getting married to Ernest she gives her address as Roslyn, Creswick Road, Ballarat. In the Sands and McDougall for Victoria in 1920 John C Robertson is listed at Creswick Road.
With regard to Ernest Burnett and the notice I quoted from above, the piece continues “of whose estate was granted to Maxwell James Burnett, of 17 Spruhan Avenue, Norlane, carpenter…”
Is this our Ern? From Berringa Herald, Saturday 3 February 1917:
“Pte. Ern A. Burnett of Illabarook, writes to his brother Mr T. Burnett, of Berringa, that his time is well occupied in Egypt. However, when he bas
some spare moments he visits places of interest, and has taken some interesting photographs of the pyramids, the big mosques, tombs– etc. . He also informs his brother that he has received a most encouraging letter from Mrs J. Morris, formerly of Illabarook, but who now resides near Cressy. Pte Burnett says that it is impossible to get decent tobacco to smoke, and he writes “If you know of anybody who would like to do the boys a turn, tell them to send us some decent tobacco, aa the stuff we get is k.s.d.” [In this matter we shall be pleased to receive donations of tobacco to be sent on to Pte Burnett’s party of soldiers. All contributions will be duly acknowledged.-Ed.] Pte Burnett’s brother, Pte Gordon Burnett, is in the trenches in France.”
Ern’s NAA file has been digitised and on enlistment in 1916 he was a farmer aged 26 and 2 months in Dereel near Illabarook,. His father, James Burnett, lived at Iona, Laxton Street, Ballarat.
Did John Comber meet Ern in Egypt or did they know each other before the war? Ern married Maude in 1919. JCR and Maude were obviously close so presumably Dorothy kept in touch with Uncle Ern in Geelong after 1930. Did Maude previously live with the Charles’s in Cardigan/Windermere?
@ Lord CoB
John Comber was a railway porter in Mildura around 1911. Maybe this is where and when he met Alice Stratford.
Oh lor!
Five posts in one day! Many apologies!
From Wikitree:
Robina “Ruby” Charles formerly Robertson
Born 26 May 1893 [location unknown]:
“Robina “Ruby” was born on 26 May 1893 and married James Leslie Charles 1885-1963, son of John Charles 1849-1917 and Sarah Wells, in 1917, and had three children. The younger two children John Robert 1918 and James William 1920 , drowned on 22 January 1933. The third child was Graham Robertson Charles. James and Ruby were on a big property at Cardigan. James died in 1963 aged 77 at Ballarat and Ruby died in 1968 aged 75 at Ballarat. Thornville farm managed by Graham Charles.”
Maude Easton Burnett formerly Robertson
Born 26 Apr 1889 in Victoria:
“Maude was born on 26 April 1889 and married Ernest Arnold Burnett, son of James, in 1918. His family was from Ballarat. He was a carpenter by trade but was an insurance agent in Camperdown, then East Geelong and then a coal carter in the depression and from 1933 the postmaster at Drysdale. They had two children: Maxwell James, 1921, and Alma May, 1925. Max lived in Geelong, married Betty Greenaway and had four children: Douglas, Rhonda, Ian and Heather. Alma married Colin Kingsbury in 1947 and lived at 15 Heather Street Hamlyn Heights Geelong 052 781607. The Kingsbury family were bakers in Geelong and lived next door to the Burnetts in Port Arlington Road at Drysdale, where the Burnetts had the post office. Alma and Colin both worked for a time in the post office. Their son Russell Colin Kingsbury was born on 25 October 1949. Maude died at Drysdale on 3 May 1946, and Ernest in 1951 at Geelong.”
Father Robert Robertson “was born on 3 April 1857 at Burrumbeet. He boarded at Scotch. He had a dairy farm at Wyung for about five years. He was of Enlay, Windermere 31 a farmer, when he married Mary Catherine Coomber on 4 December 1888 at Windermere.”
After analysing Dorothy’s baptism record, there are only 2 options in Colac: St. John’s (Anglican) or Methodist Circuit, the other ones are St. Mary’s (Roman Catholic). and St. Andrew’s (Presbyterian) which doesn’t have baptism records.
http://zades.com.au/gandd/images/stories/pdfs/Churches.pdf
I know nothing about religions, would you say J.C. and Alice were Methodists or Anglicans?
Maxwell James and Alma May Burnett were admitted to Drysdale School (number 1645) in 1932.
In for a penny in for a pound. I’ve wasted a good few hours today on this nonsense but hey!
Nick posted on 31 July 2022: “On 23 Jan 1924, John Comber Robertson was in the Victoria Petty Sessions Court in Colac (ref: 301/P0/Vol 62). Complainant R Batterbury, default summons 20/12/1923, 5 shillings fee, charge “Goods sold & delivered”, struck out, no defence. (Findmypast)”
Could this be the R Batterbury? – from The Ballarat Star, Fri 18 Apr 1924:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/214252384?searchTerm=%22r%20batterbury%22
“Quite a gloom was cast over the town on Saturday morning when it
became known that Mrs R. Batterbury had passed away on Friday night. The deceased lady had been ill only a short time, and her death came as a shock to many of her friends. “She was the wife of Mr Roff Batterbury, storekeeper, and daughter of Mrs Kean, of Hampton. The body was taken to Melbourne
on Saturday and interred in the Brighton Cemetery on Monday, I4th April. Quite a number of residents of Cressy followed the remains on Saturday for a few miles to pay their last’ respects to a very popular resident”.
Cressy is very close to Beeac/Cundare. Perhaps JCR got his revenge and poisoned Roff’s Mrs!
If Dave Morgan’s 20 August speculation is right then JCR was guilty of incest.
“My guess is before WW1, JC Robertson was living with the Charles family in Thornville for 10 years. Possibly adopted. As he grew to an older teen he was in some relationship with Mrs Charles which when he returned from WW1 she had ended – you could imagine fervent letter writing to a soldier. I suspect this became vindictive because he was the spurned lover which ended in him getting 2 months in jail. It also suggests he never got his parcel of land – perhaps the money was going to come from his adopting Charles family.
I suppose there is also a potential that one of the drowned Charles’ boys was his.”
Cripes! That makes said Charles boy his son AND his nephew.
@Pat
You could well be right. Perhaps he gave her a hand with her luggage (no euphemism intended). Lots of new info on Doff’s aunts, uncles, cousins etc – well new to me anyway. Cousins for example – Graham Robertson Charles at Thornville Farm nr Ballarat. Maxwell James Burnett of Geelong, carpenter like his old man, with his four kids. Alma May Kingsbury ( née Burnett) who married into a family of bakers (!) in Geelong.
The Robertsons, Charles’s and Burnetts seem to have been as thick as thieves. Makes a body wonder how Doff could just disappear like that, but then again so did Carl. Wonder what really happened between them as their marriage fell to pieces. Perhaps they actually did sell their souls to Satan (or Stalin).
Mamoth research effort Bob and in essence hard to find much to disagree with.
All ado about nothing even remotely related to Somerton Man or imposter Carl Webb though true to form nonetheless. I had anticipated some form of ”gotcha’ come back with regards to JCR’s self inflicted wound ‘whilst on active service’ in Egypt though guess you’ll get around to it soon enough. I can hardly wait to shoot you down in flames again.
All this talk about Thornville and Thornbirds has for some reason put me in mind of Aussie actress Sigrid Thornton. I first encountered Ms Thornton in the late ’70s as Sue, wearing a very skimpy bikini in the Aussie version of Father, Dear Father, with Patrick Cargill and a couple of St Bernards, GK and AC (a bitch). Later I saw her in Prisoner and All The Rivers Run, a series set in Echuca and Melbourne.
I note from her Wikipedia entry that she was born 12 February 1959. A mere two months after me! Oh Sigrid, we could have been a match made in heaven. Sigrid weapon indeed! And with that thought I’m going to bed. It’s been a long day.
And for good measure, this would slot in nicely with the move to Mincha Street to work at the Victorian Benevolent Home – living quarters provided must be Mincha Street. Random speculation of course.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202255977?searchTerm=applications%20overseer%20victorian%20benevolent%20home
Lord BoB’s showing the lead and going on the offencive at DA’s FB site. From this initiative, at last we have firm evidence of DJR’s first week of schooling at Geelong, the 1930 ledger giving details, from which Jo’s since managed to dig up all the good oil on really important information eg., JCR’s failed farm, names of all associates, relatives, addresses, loan defaults and a full history of the Robertson clan going back to the Isle of Bute whence they came. All this we have come to expect from BoB by now but, he’s gone further and managed to wangle from Derek that Doff died in Sydney circa. nineties and that she had til her passing shared a rental in the suburbs. The Pofessor was adamant that there be no truth at all to rumours that Dorothy was a late blooming 60’s flower child and/or attracted to other women. Great input and well deserving of a guest spot, if only the man would consent to give poor Somerton Man a plug occasionally and go easy on the verbage.
@Jo A whole series of year photos, but a 1927 Grade 1A photo is close (I suspect she was 1 year too old unless she repeated or started late) at link https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158284783526734&set=g.4109233292
@John Sanders
I have indeed been going on the “offensive” on Facebook. Derek replied to my question “Do you have any more info about the hippie/LGBT “colony” that Colleen said Dorothy ended up in in NSW? ” by saying “It wasn’t a “colony” is was a share house in Sydney. Uncertain of location. Dorothy’s sister send money to help pay for funeral. So we know Dorothy died in the 1990s.”
Glad to know you are a fan of my “initiative” JS. Just hope you don’t start spouting all that guff about the FB mafia an’ all. And it weren’t Jo who dug up “all the good oil on really important information” but my good self as I’m sure you’ll be the first to acknowledge. And ’twere Poppins who founds the info about Swanston St School.
I couldn’t care less whether JCR had a touch of the Cairo rose or the Istanbul itch or any other self-inflicted condition come to that. I may have lived like an anchorite for much of my life but I ain’t no prude.
Still waiting for that apology re the pervy JCR idea which you backed to the hilt when Dave first brought it up, but as usual your revisionist sense of (your own) history allows you to pretend you were sceptical all along! And I really would like to know what I got up to in Melbourne in 1967. Memory is fading a little now dear chap. I don’t even remember going abroad until 1968 (Mallorca since you ask).
Not surprised that Behrooz has teamed up with GC (if your allegation is correct). Birds of a feather etc etc.
1) Nice photo of Maude Burnett, JCR’s sister, in full highland garb, on her Wikitree page:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Robertson-15031
Also James Charles’ and Ruby/Robina’s wedding photo:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Robertson-15032
Looks like Maude as a bridesmaid.
Nice photo of Sigrid Thornton:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086663/mediaviewer/rm152927744/
2) On JCR’s grandpa Duncan Robertson:
“Duncan’s next moves were as a squatter near Ballarat and then to acquire land at Windermere. He is supposed to have ploughed the first furrow in the district. In W.B.Withers “History of Ballarat” 1870 we read; “Burrumbeet district first ground was broken by Messrs. Robertson and Ross after whom came Messrs. Strachan and Beaton…”
He became a partner with William Ross, his lifelong friend and together they blazed out ‘R & R’ on the saddleback hilltop which dominates the homestead below, and which could still be seen until recently. In the drive of the property until recently also stood a tree with Duncan’s initials carved deeply into the bark which he put there over a century ago.”
3) JCR’s brother-in-law Ern Burnett’s parents James and Frances had 12 children (Henry, Will, Jim, Tom, Frances, Ethel, Ern, Bert, Gordon, Tot(?), Gertie, and Ray)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154619243?searchTerm=%22illabarook%22%20james%20burnett
James, a farmer, lived in Lexton Street (not Laxton as stated before) near Lake Wendouree in Ballarat.
229 Kiewa Street, South Albury, NSW is a good place to look for recent divorcee Dorothy Jean.
Her cousin Thelma Georgina Garrett (nee Stratford) was living there from at least 1952 to 1956, when her mother Ethel Eudora Enwood Robertson Stratford (nee Manhire) died.
Thelma Georgina married Clarence (Clarrie) George Garrett in 1936. He was a widower. His previous wife died at the age of 22 and they had a daughter, June. Thelma and Clarrie had a daughter, Marcia.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Wed 21 Jun 1933
Page 1
Family Notices
GARRETT.— On the 20th June, at Heidelberg,
Jean, beloved wife of Clarence George Garrett,
and loving mother of June, only daughter of Mrs.
George Denmark, aged 22 years.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4743528?searchTerm=%22clarence%20garrett%22%20%22denmark%22#
Clarrie made the headlines a couple of times…
Four Hurt in Gippsland Smash
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244819498
Signed Documents Withouth Understanding Them
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205909123
Border Morning Mail (Albury, NSW : 1934 – 1935; 1938 – 1952)
Sat 23 Aug 1952
Page 1
A sparrow-weight” champion
“A sparrow-weight” champion
“Take a look at me, friends. I’m the logical contender for
the ‘sparrow-weight’ championship of Kiewa street,” says
Flashy, the 4½ lb miniature pomeranian, owned by Marcia
Garrett, of 229 Kiewa st., South Albury. Marcia is the daughter
of Mr. and Mrs. C. G. Garrett. Weighed regularly, Flashy
has no trouble in sitting in the small tray of the scales for his
usual weigh-in. A cheque for 10/6 will fee posted shortly
to Marcia. A similar payment will be made by the “Mail”
for any other animal studies which are submitted and appear
in this paper.
Looks like the Pupil Registers for North Cundare and Brunswick South West Primary School aren’t held at Prov Vic. They have this note on there site:
“School records created by Government schools that are still operating today are most likely still with those schools. Generally speaking, PROV holds school records for Government schools that have been closed.
Unfortunately records for many schools that operated and closed during the 19th and early 20th centuries do not appear to have survived.” I’ll send ’em off an email then.
Lard BoB: seems that you’re protesting too much on one hand re your travels abroad and, flogging a dead ‘orse on the other re my casual conditional support for David Martin’s theory on JCR’s posdibly being the Kensington perve, a support that was promotly withdrawn when another suspect with better background potential came to light.
For general interest – the phonetics and history of the Australian forms of English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWCVFw1vK6g
@Pat Trove troubles past 1954? Public libraries in Australia have online access to ProQuest ANZ Newstream from 1980s through to a couple days ago (text results). I can access from my local public library public website using my login.
@Poppins On a change of name, the birth record is removed to be replaced by the change of name.
@Jo I reckon third in from the top right in the direction as we look at the photo is a good candidate for Dorothy Jean Robertson.
@John Sanders
As recently as 7 am on 28 November you were speculating: “So it seems that the three families of Robertson, Burnett and Charles, were maybe known to each other back before Doff was born.” How far behind the curve can a man be? Of course they were known to each other since Maude Robertson married a Burnett in 1919 and Ruby Robertson a Charles in 1917. Did you miss my post about Ern Burnett of 26 November? And Poppins reply of the 27 inst.? By the way I wonder if that’s JCR on the left of Ruby’s wedding photo.
You also said earlier on the 28th at 2.54 am that: “Seems that both Ernie and his brother-in-law JCR [so you DID know that the Robertsons and Burnetts were related by marriage!] were both forced to give up their respective land holdings in late 1929/30 (drought)”. Again misinformation as I effortlessly proved a short time later.
At least you spotted my new info about Doff dying in a Sydney shared house which other punters have either missed or ignored. Reminds me of my own times in Sydney staying in seedy boarding houses. In ’83 I stayed in a crumbling mansion in Edgecliff near to beautiful Darling Point and Double Bay for a few weeks. Amazing characters there (possibly Doff herself?) who wouldn’t have been out of place in one of Patrick White’s most baroque novels* including a middle aged woman who wore a huge radio strapped around her neck listening to talk radio all day long, a WW2 veteran who delighted in lifting his shorts at breakfast to show us his skin grafts occasioned by too much sun up in New Guinea, and one of a pair of Hungarian brothers who wielded a knife threatening to kill the bastard who stole his milk from the fridge. In ’85 I stayed up in Kirribilli but unfortunately not at Kirribilli House or Admiralty House.
*I’m sure you’ll remember Dorothy and her dying mother Elizabeth in the grand old house in suburban Sydney in White’s The Eye of the Storm:
“”Alone, Dorothy was already quailing for the kind of sentimental weaknesses a raking of the past might uncover. At the Judgement, too, you stand alone…Your only hope in the present lies in indignation for whatever disgusts most: from faecal whiffs, breath filtered through mucus, the sickly scent of baby powder.”
You seem to think that all this following DJR up the Yellow Brick Road stuff is beneath keen sleuths such as our good selves but 1) you can only follow the leads that others supply and 2) there is an intrinsic interest to Doff’s story and that of the early settlers in rural Victoria which transcends the Somerton Man case.
If you want to take investigations in a different direction then you should post some new evidence or even speculation that the rest of us can get our teeth into. What have you given us since your John Barkly Bennett insinuations? Or perhaps you would prefer to join Behrooz and GC on the Good Ship Lollipop, in which case cheery-bye!
“On the Good Ship Lollipop
It’s a sweet trip to a candy shop
Where bon-bons play
On the sunny beach of Peppermint Bay”
How do I (or anyone interested) contact this cemetery administration
St Marys General Cemetery
St Marys, Penrith City, New South Wales, Australia
concerning this “Robertson” person interred there? I know it’s not late 1990s but I don’t understand if Dorothy’s nephew said late 90s or late 1990, so early 2000 could be a possibility.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/220224510/robertson
@ Lord CoB (aka Steve H)
I haven’t ignored your ‘shared house’ contribution. I’m simply trying to digest the information. Has Colleen Fitzpatrick made up the other stuff? Why? How would she imply that it was a LGBT.. thing from ‘shared house’? Weird. I wish Dorothy’s family members would join in the conversation, it would be so much easier to stick to facts rather than the wild speculations based on third-party celebrity time on social media.
1) Is anyone still on board with Behrooz’s outrageous suggestions of Oct 20?:
“It is more than likely—still not 100% unless the actual death record of her death is found, or conversely, somehow with reliable evidence it is found that she did in fact survive—that Dorothy Jean Robertson died in 1955, and did not see the end of that year.
I think it is best to consider the idea of her having died in the 1990s and buried in NSW as just a hearsay (she could have been buried anywhere, in NSW, or elsewhere, or cremated). But the very fact that the sources of that information were not in a position to offer, purposely or not, definitive whereabouts for her for various reasons must itself be regarded, in my view, as interpretively significant.”
Obviously Doff’s nephew did not have the exact address when he spoke to Derek Abbott but his mother presumably knew it at the time of DJR’s death.
Of course if we adopt Behrooz’s hermeneutic approach and attempt to deconstruct the lexical minutiae of every text or to probe the lacunae in every document regardless of its immediate purpose (eg a divorce petition) we’ll be here till Kingdom Come. I know many contributors to CM indulged their masochistic sides and enjoyed being patronised by Dr Tamdgidi but still! It might suit hardy perennials like JS to have a “forever argument” about the SM case but some of us want our lives back!
2) What happened to Dave Morgan? Did he get so bored with his conversations with his AI pals that he switched himself off to save on electricity? And what about Wendy Virtue? Wendy Boat Comes In more like:
“Now come here me little Jackie
Now I’ve smoked me baccy;
Let’s have some cracky
‘Til the boat comes in.
And you shall have a fishy
on a little dishy,
You shall have a fishy
when the boat comes in.”
I posted a photo of Doff’s Aunt Maude in full highland dress yesterday but I’m still to be convinced that DJR herself was involved in all that Pictish flinging. It all reminds me of that old episode of Boney – ‘Boney and the Black Clansman’:
“While investigating sheep rustling and reprisal killings of stockmen, Boney walks into a full scale clan feud between two Australian outback families who cling stubbornly to the grim traditions of their Scottish ancestors.”
The Robertson Gang versus The Ross Boys. Haggises at thirty paces! Sporran poaching by moonlight!
3) Funnily enough John Barkly Bennett moved to Melbourne in 1954/55 and subsequently to NSW:
” After five years at Wagin he moved to Melbourne buying a practice in North Road, Ormond from Dr. Clough and then in East Malvern 1958 –63, and moved his practice to 334 Wattletree Road East Malvern 1958 –1963, over the road for a few years, then to East Bentleigh and to Carnegie in 1969, where he had partnerships with Dr.Roman Zeeher, and with Dr. Janus Fraillon. A keen golfer he was president of Yarra Yarra Golf Club. His last practice was in Bermagui, NSW where he was again the only doctor.” (From WikiTree)
Wonder if he met up with Doff? Did she go to Sydney Town via Bermagui?
Anyone else feel like we’re just going round in circles?
@Lord CoB, great research there, good on ya! Well, that’s a bit different, hey, Dorothy living in a share house in Sydney as opposed to a mystery LGBT colony …. so we had some misinformation from the podcast there. Moving on. Love the photos of Maude – h’mm, now I get it, the Scottish connection – Dorothy spending time with Aunt Maude, gets interested in Scottish dancing, makes sense now.
I’ve written to the school but heard nothing back yet.
@Curio thanks for that info, I’ll keep looking then. Dorothy can’t be in a Brunswick school photo till 1930, I’d say …. if she started school at 6 she’d have been at North Cundare from 1926 to 1929 – Brunswick should be from 1930 after the short stint at Swanston Street School.
@Pat, thanks for the Doveton Street, it just registered in my mini brain now looking through that it’s the name on the certificate ….had focused on Nurse Oates, whoops. Indebted.
Lard BoB: ’83’s a newy for avid swallowers of your adventures Sydney what a blast, and a departure from your sojournes in Melbourne, Cottesloe and the back blocks. Wish we all could have been with you on your magic carpet ride hanging about the The Cross and all. Your mention of Dororthy having maybe dropped in on cousin (2nd) Bennett of Bermagui on the way up to the smoke brings to mind any number of Dorothy candidates I found in cemeteries down that way back in ’22. Then of course there’s the Sparrows that I traced to 105 Moseley Street Glenelg (opposite Jo Thomson at 90a), who spent their final years at Bermagui, or did I mention that already; Hate to be repeating myself, that being your trade and calling, and don’t your FB pals just thrive on it. As for needless concern for Dave Morgs, he’s plotting and prepping for the post Webb boom; that or else GC’s pushed him under a bus.
Pat: No name Robertson St Mary’s cemetery. I Have a feeling about this one and have several non mainstream reasons besides zpresbyterian that maybe only an aspie could relate to…realmente!
@Lord CoB I found a death advertisement on The Ryerson Index online search in 2014 for that Wendy not in the 1990s. No reply from her daughter or a second relative on familysearch. I still want to know why I cannot find her birth record and I want to know why she used four different names.
@Pat & Poppins
Derek Abbott didn’t make any mention of hippies/LGBT folk in his brief reply to me, although Mr Sanders put the slant on it that he “was adamant that there be no truth at all to rumours that Dorothy was a late blooming 60’s [sic] flower child and/or attracted to other women”, when he made the first mention (before me) of the Prof’s new info on this site. I don’t believe Colleen would have plucked that tidbit out of the air so don’t give up the idea that Doff was a polysexual free love bohemian type in her later years. The important piece of data that Derek proffered was that Doff was in Sydney at the time of her death (although I wouldn’t take that as 100% proof that she was!)
As for religion. The Robertson clan would indeed have been good Scotch Presbyterians (ie Calvinists). JCR’s Aunt Bessie for example went to to a Presbyterian Ladies College.
You will remember my earlier mention (on November 28, 2023 at 12:55 pm) of Frances Harding, Ern Burnett’s sister who was living with him in 1919 according to his SS application, having been “living apart from her husband”. A nice little vignette here from 1910 – she was married in a Presbyterian church:
“On Wednesday, the 4th May. the marriage of Mr Frank Harding, third son
of the late Mr and Mrs Thomas Harding of Hill View, Windermere, with Miss
Frances Eva A. (Sissie), eldest daughter of Mr and Mrs J. Burnett, of Windermere (formerly of Illabarook) was celebrated at the Presbyterian Church, Windermere, by the Rev. G. Hay, of Rokewood. in the presence of a large gathering of relatives and friends of the contracting parties. The church was prettily decorated by the lady friends of the bride, and among the decorations was a large white bell, kindly lent by Mrs J. Charles [!], which hung above the heads of the happy couple: The wedding march was nicely played by Mister Swan (organist). The bride, who was given away by her father [James], wore a cream Japanese silk, prettily trimmed with silk lace and insertion. She wore the usual wreath and veil, and carried a lovely bouquet of white chrysanthemums and asparagus fern, with streamers of white satin ribbon.”
See: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/216058716?searchTerm=%22j%20burnett%22%20presbyterian%20illabarook
“Presbyterian churches were founded in each [Australian] colony, some with links to the Church of Scotland and others to the Free Church. There were also congregations originating from United Presbyterian Church of Scotland as well as a number founded by John Dunmore Lang. Most of these bodies merged between 1859 and 1870, and in 1901 formed a federal union called the Presbyterian Church of Australia but retaining their state assemblies. The Presbyterian Church of Eastern Australia representing the Free Church of Scotland tradition, and congregations in Victoria of the Reformed Presbyterian Church, originally from Ireland, are the other existing denominations dating from colonial times.” (Wikipedia)
As for the Stratfords I haven’t seen this Wikipedia page linked here before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Stratford
Click on Descendants here for the family tree starting with the John Stratford, 1st Earl of Aldborough: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stratford-202
The earldom was created on 9 February 1777, and one presumes the Stratfords were Protestants. From (again!) Wikipedia: ” By 1707, after further defeat in the Williamite War and the subsequent Union of England and Scotland, the aristocracy in Ireland was dominated by Anglican families who owed allegiance to the Crown. Some of these were Irish families who had chosen to conform to the established Church of Ireland, keeping their lands and privileges, such as the Dukes of Leinster (whose surname is FitzGerald, and who descend from the Hiberno-Norman aristocracy), or the Gaelic Guinness family. Some were families of British or mixed-British ancestry who owed their status in Ireland to the Crown, such as the Earls of Cork (whose surname is Boyle and whose ancestral roots were in Herefordshire, England).”
@John Sanders
It’s quite easy sport. I was in the land of Oz from March ’82 to December ’83 and again for three months or so in ’85.
In 1982 I was in Perth. the Kimberley and Darwin.
In 1983 I was in Perth, Darwin, Arnhem Land, Katherine, Alice Springs, Townsville, Cairns, Brisbane, Sydney and Canberra.
In 1985 I was in Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne and Adelaide.
Of course I visited other places, eg Kalgoorlie, Uluru, Port Douglas and the Gold Coast on short trips. Hope this clears things up for you. As for my magic carpet you will remember the old Steppenwolf hit:
“Well, you don’t know what we can find
Why don’t you come with me, little girl
On a magic carpet ride?
You don’t know what we can see
Why don’t you tell your dreams to me?
Fantasy will set you free”
So no room for you you old bugger, although Sigrid Thornton would have been welcome!
I did hang around The Cross a bit. Even saw a drag show there. And of course I knew the Sparrows flew the nest to live in Bermagui. Just like I knew JBB married Nan the nurse from Moseley Street before you did.
Meanwhile I see your mate Pete Bowes is like the cat that got the cream cos he got a reply from SAPOL: “The DNA work on the Somerton Man’s remains was recently completed with analysis of these results to be reported to the State Coroner in the final report…It is anticipated that the final report will be made available to the State Coroner in early 2024.” We wait with baited breath.
NO, I have never been in Denver, Colorado. I don’t have man-boobs either!
I also note that Jo has left us for the barren shores of Tbt and confirms there that it was her relatives that were spotted oop on t’ moor by Tod(morden) and not some pesky aliens as some conspiracy nuts (and maybe Manchester curry fan Guzz Rating) would have you believe. One wonders whether they were baht ‘at or wi’ ‘at.
If you’re reading this Jo, wheear ‘ast tha bin sin’ ah ‘eard from thee lass?
@Lord CoB links to Dorothy’s Robertson side grandparents are, as follows:
Mother
https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000186253745983?album_type=photos_of_me&photo_id=6000000186254797882
and father
https://www.geni.com/people/Robert-Robertson/6000000186250401441
CoB me owd cobber!
Fear not! I’m still a bolted on Ciphermysteries follower! I’ve followed the Pervy John father, uncle and Holy Ghost saga, featuring a walk on roll from Sigrid Thornton, though we know this is not our John… Have you seen the Fred Schepisi film version of Eye of the Storm? (It put food on our table a few years ago… )
I’m just reeling from the share house news! I’ve been having a quick look through the electoral rolls for possible Dorothys – I’ve found a 1963 Dorothy Lockyer in Kings Cross, with no other mentions & am following up now with Dorothy Robertsons… I haven’t seen a DJR in Bermagui, though there is one in the 1970s in Merimbul who doesn’t seem to be attached to a husband or family… I miss Misca with her great ability to rifle through the rolls!! I’m time poor and don’t keep great records.
In the rolls, I’d previously found Russell Webb in 1924 at 141 Packington Street, Geelong. He didn’t stay there long as he’s also listed in Oakleigh for the same year. He’s also listed in a Geelong business directory as a pastry cook.
Anyway, this is probably my favourite Sydney share house song…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cEGsCeZuQEI
Like Johnno, I think Pat may have found Dorothy’s grave at St Mary’s Cemetery in Penrith.
@ Pat – there is a phone number for St Mary’s cemetery and burial records are public, I’ll give them a call! I’d say that the Robertson’s would be Presbyterian, although JCR worked as the caretaker at an Anglican school…
BoB: yes of course you knew your favourite no number Moseley St. Sparra family ended up in Bermagui. Unlike you not to let the FB girls in on the coup a year ago, or to claim jump it following my own low key mention of Cecil having spent his last years there. Truth be known you never likely heard of Bermagui before yesterday. That about right boyo?
@Jo,
Judging by the few Robertsons interred at St. Mary’s Cemetery – Penrith, NSW, I suppose there’s a small chance…
https://hwt.concordengage.com/penrithcemeteries/search/cemeteries/e62aef3c-8f8c-42b4-8630-fe81ab7da2f0/results?lastName=robertson
Regarding religion, it’s interesting that the Charles of Learmonth, Windermere, Cardigan, and Ballarat were all Presbyterians and even more intersting many of them were Freemasons!
The lad beside Robina May Robertson in her wedding photo is Andrew Oswald Charles. He was a well known Freemason at the Learmonth Lodge along with James Leslie (Robina’s husband) and their son Graham Robertson Charles (who is listed as the latest W.M., Wor. Bro. G. R. Charles.
http//www.learmonthdhs.com.au/index.php/heritage-walk/34-heritage-walk-sites/heritage-walk/25-site-28-masonic-lodge-hall
The Ballarat Star (Vic. : 1865 – 1924)
Sáat 1 Jul 1922
Page 11
WINDERMERE.
VALEDICTORY.
A valedictory social was tendered to
Mr and Mrs R. Swan and Miss Swan
by the members of the Windermere
Presbyterian Church, on Thursday
evening, 15th June. The Rev. R.
Jones. who occupied the chair, referred
to the long residence of Mr and Mrs
Swan in the district, and expressed the
regret of all present at their departure,
and at the same time wished them
health and happiness in their new
home. On behalf of the congregation,
the chairman presented the guests
with a cake dish suitably inscribed.
Messrs Jas. Mitchell and G. C. Ste
wart, in supporting the remarks of the
chairman, also regretted their depar
ture. Mr Swan, in responding, said
he was very sorry to leave on account
of his long association with the district,
but was pleased to know that he was
leaving with such good wishes from
tho residents. The young ladies of
the congregation, through Mr A. O.
Charles,. presented Miss Swan with a
hand mirror, and whilst regretting
their loss, wished hen every success in
her new sphere of life. Mr R. J.
Swan suitably responded on behalf of
his sister. During the evening, har
mony was contributed by Mrs Jas.
Charles, Mrs R. J. Swan, Miss Hard
ing and Mr A. O. Charles. Supper,
Kindly provided by the ladies of the
congregation, brought a very enjoyable
evening to a close.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213035269
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Tue 9 Jun 1942
Page 4
BALLARAT EVENTS
Approval was given by the Ballarat
Shire Council yesterday to the formation
of the Windermere Bush Fire
Brigade with the executive compris-
ing Mr W Walton capt and Messrs
J. Swan, A. O. Charles, J. Walton,
T. Dobson and V. Chisholm Lieutenants.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11980355
The Ballarat Courier (Vic. : 1869 – 1886; 1914 – 1918)
Tue 27 Nov 1917
Page 5
LEARMONTH.
MASONIC INSTALLATION.
The installation of Br David Baird as
worshipful master of the Learmonth
Lodge and the investiture of his officers
took place in the Masonic Hall here on
Saturday evening. There was a very
large number of visiting brethren present
from the surrounding sister lodges. The
Grand Lodge was represented by the
Most Worshipful Grand Master, Br Sir
Alex. Peacock, M.L.A.; Br T.A. Wilson,
P.J.G.W.; Br Wm. P. Norihctt,
P.J.G.W. ; Br W. Boustead, P.G.D.C.;
and Br A. Frank, P.G.S.B. The follow-
ing worshipful masters were also present;
Brs A. Lean, Jas. Oliver, A. K.
M’Cleave, Geo. A. Cormack. J. Bradley,
W. Hetherington; and W. M’Phee. It
was one of the most brilliant gatherings
ever seen at an installation ceremony.
The installling master was Right Wor. Br
J. Baird, P.J.G.W. The newly-installed
W.M. then invested the following officers:
Br Geo. A. Dean, I.P.M.; Br Matthew
Baird, S.W.; Br John Medwell, J.W.: Br
Wim. Rain, P.G.S.B., chaplain; Br J.
Dickle, treasurer; Right Wor. Br J.
Baird,. P.J.G.W., secretary; Br A. O.
Charles. S.D.; Br Jas. Charles, J.D.;
Br W. Coutts, I.G: Br F. Collings, D.C;
Brs S. Hender, W. Draffin, R. Dowler,
H. Abbott. J. Burr, and M. Irving, stew
ards: Br R. Davenport, tyler; organist,
Br M. Irving. During the evening the
Most Wor P.G.M., Br Alex. Peaerk, on
behalf of the retiring W.M. Br Geo.
Dean, presented the tyler, Br R. Daven
port with a pipe and tobacco pouch, as a
mark of esteem and in recognition of his
22nd year of election as tyler of the lodge.
Br Davenport appropriatetly acknowledg
ed the gift. After the installation cere
mony the hrethren repaired to the Me
chanics’ Hall for supper. The W.M. Br
D. Baird occupied the chair, and was sup
dortel by the Most Wor. Br A. J. Pea
cock, P.G.M. and Right Wor. Dr T. A.
Wilson,. P.J.G.W. The following toasts
were proposed and duly honored:_”The
King.” by the chairman, and honored
with the National Anthem: “The Grand
I.odge Officers.” by Br M. Baird, and re
sponded to by Most Wor. Br A. J. Peacock
and Righlt Wor. Br Wilson. The latter
made an eloquent appeal in favor of the
“Yes” Referendum vote on the 20th De
cember. “‘The Worshipful Master” was
proposed by Wor. Br W. Rain. P.G.S.B.;
“The Immediate Past Master,” bu Right
Wor. Br J. Baird. P.G.J.W.; “‘The Bre
thren at the Front.” by Br W. Coutts.
and responded to br Lt Rowe; “The Visi
tors” was proposed by the chairman. and
reponded to by Wor. Br Oliver. W.M.
No. 53. “The Tyler’s” toast concluded
a very pleasant social function. Wor.
Br W. Bonstead. P.G.D.C., contributed
some excellent harmony during the even
ing.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73336277
The Ballarat Star (Vic. : 1865 – 1924)
Mon 15 Aug 1921
Page 6
BURRUMBEET.
THE LATE MR. R. SWAN.
The funeral of Mr Robert Swan, of
Burrumbeet, was one of the largest
gatherings ever witnessed in the Bur
rumbeet and Learmonth districts. The
lengthy cortege, which moved from his
residence at Burrumbeet, was composed
of friends from the whole of the sur
rounding districts, including distant
parts—Stockyard Hill, Beaufort, Cres
wick, Clarendon. Cressy. Ballarat,
Black Hill, Haddon, Glen Brae, Lex
ton. etc. Numerous bodies were fully
represented, viz. President and Coun-
cillors of the Ballarat Shire. Board of
directors and staff of Burrumbeet and
“Windermere Co-operative Co., elders
and board of manegement of Burrum
bect and Windermere Presbyterian
Churches, president and members of
Windermere and Lcarmonth branch of
the A.N.A., district football, cricket
and racing clubs, etc. The deceased
was accorded a masonic funeral. The
W.M. (Wor Bro A. O. Charles) was ac-
companied by his past-masters, officers
and brethren in large numbers, who
were joined by worshipful brethren and
brethren of various sister lodges.
Marshalled by Bro R. Davenport
(tyler) they formed a procession at the
cemetery entrance, and proceeded to
the graveside at the Learmonth Ceme
tery. where the deceased’s remains
were laid beside those of his wife.
The services at the house and grave
were conducted by the Rev. R. Jones.
Wor Bro W. Rain (chaplain) delivered
the lodge service, which concluded by
the singing of “Lead, Kindly Light. ”
The coffin-bearers at the house were
four members of the staff of the Bur-
rumbeet and Windermere Co-operative
Cos., viz., J. Hamilton, R. Lockett, L.
Mitchell, and F. Roberts, and at the
graveside, six nephews of the deceased,
viz., R. L.. J. ., and J. C. Creelman,
R. J. Swan, E. Erlindsen and J. Coch-
rane (Melb). The pall-bearers were
Sir Alex Peacock, M.L.A.. Messrs John
Dickie. W. J. Dobson-. D. Davidson,
Geo Stewart, Jas. Mitchell. Gilbert
White (secretary board of management-
Presbyterian Church), Robt. Swan
(Windermere), R. Charles ( Session), A.
Gray (Melbourne), W. Kerr, H. G.
Morrow (Cuthbert. Morrow and Must),
P. and M. Ryan. W. Vaughan, W.
Bourke. Jas. Coutts. The chief
mourners were —Messrs. Jas. Swan
(son of the deceased). R. J. Creelman,
M Gray (Dowling Forest). D. Swan
(Melbourne), and D. Stewart (brothers
in-law). J. G. Swan (Cressy), and
John Swan (Seaford). (brothers of de
ceased). A. Gray, F. Campbell (cousin),
Andrew McKcnzie and A. Charles
(Geelong). Among other representa
tives present were Messrs D. R. Han-
nah (president Beaufort- Shire), J.
Excll and T. Hannah (Stockyard Hill),
D. Edmonston (Lexton Shire). Walton,
Baird. W. Monteith, G. C. Stewart,
and Geo. Bolster (manager, represent-
ing directors of Co-operative Coy.),
President G. Henderson and Crs. Bal-
larat Shire. Westcott (South Brit-
ish Cos.). Jas. Kerr (R and T. Dixon),
E Crocker (Geo. Crocker and Sons), j
F. J. Yarrow and J. McKenzie
(Cressy). J. Martin (Black Hill). W-
H. Tweedie and Angus Greenfield. W.
Cocks Norman and Max Booth (Mac-
Leod and Booth). E. Southey, M.
Beanland and others of all classes too
numerous to mention. Wreaths from
Burrumbeet Church Congregation.
Windermere Branch A.N.A.. and
other floral tributes were received. The
funeral arrangements were in the
hands of Messrs F. W. Barnes and
Son.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/211972020
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Tue 24 Jul 1934
Page 13
MINES AND METALS.
Applications for Leases.
A gold mining lease of 3000 acres, covering
properties in Windermere and Cardigan, is
being applied for by Mr. A. O. Charles, of
Cardigan.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205538761
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Wed 16 Nov 1921
Page 12
Riverina News.
LEARMONTH.— The installatlon of Bro Jas.
L. Charles as Worshipful Master of Learmonth
Lodgee of Freemasons took place at Learmonth on
Monday. Theere was a large attendance of wor-
shipiul masters and past masters of surrounding
district lodges. Bro. A. O. Charles was presented
with a post- master’s jewel, while the secretary
Bro. J. Baird, was presented with a fountain pen
and Bro. J. Davenport, the tyler, with a silver
mounted pipe.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204259045
The Ballarat Star (Vic. : 1865 – 1924)
Tue 10 Oct1916
Page 6
NATIONAL SERVICE
EXEMPTION APPLICATIONS
COURT IN BALLARAT.
The Ballarat Exemption Court in con
nection with the National Service
movement, commenced its work at the
City Polic Court yesterday ; Mr W- W.
Harris, P.M., presiding Lieut. Cale
represented the Defence Department.
There were only about: half-a-dozen
applicants for exemption present when
the courts opened.
At the outset the police magistrate
said he proposed to grant exepmtions
either absolute, conditional, partial or
temporarily. Conditional exemptions
would be granted where a man was
working in such employment, as to
render it of national benefit that he
should continue in it. He would be
exempted whilst employed in that par
ticular class of work. Partial exem
ptions would be in cases where men
objected to serve for conscientious
motives, and the court was satisfied
that they had conscientious grounds.
They would then be granted a partial
exemption, but would have to serve
as non-combatants. Tenporary ex
emptions would be granted where men
were in ill-health, and pending the
production of necessary information.
Mr Harris said the applicant would
support ‘his application either by his
own evidence on oath in the witness
box, or by other witnesses, or by
proper declaration made before a jus
tice of’the peace or commissioner for
taking affidavits.
The following applilcationp for ex
emptions were then dealt with : —
James Leslie Charles, farmer, of
Cardigan, on the ground that he was
one of two remaining sons of a family
of which one-half had enlisted. He
had three brothers and two had enlist
ed prior to the 2nd October.
Tho Police Magistrate — An absolute
exemption should! be’ granted in This
case.
Iiieut. Caler— A temporary exemption
is jdthat he is entitled to. Temporary
means pending any alteration of the
Act. In the case of one son coming
back physically unfit, , the Government
might call lup another son at home to
fil his place.
The Poli6e Magistrate— I will grant
an exemption until the 3lst December,
1916.
The Applicant — Can I have it until
after the harvest?
The Policw Magistrate— You can re
apply within seven days after the ex
piration of this exemption.
Andrew Oswald Charles, farmer, of
Cardigan, on the ground that he was
the only son at home. and. his father
could not reap his crop without his
assistance.
Tlte Police Magistrate— The protec
tion of Australia is of more importance
than getting your crop off. Some
other person can be engaged to take it
off.
The Appicant— If I had an exemp
tion until after the harvest, I would
gladly go.
Lieut. Cale— l see no reason why
this work could not be done by a mar
ried man.
The Police Magistrate — Neither can
I. The application ust be refused.
Cornelius Patrick Cremmin, farm,
laborer, on the ground that his mother
was a widow, and he was the only son.
Application granted, the exemption to
be temporary only.
Walter Henry Collier, on the ground
that it was expedient that he should
continue in his work as instructor in
surveying and engineering at the
School of Mines. The applicant said
the Minister had instructed. him to ap-
ply far an exemption until 30th Oc
tober, pending the Government’s de
cision as to what it intended to do.
Lieut. Cale suggested that the appli
cation be adjourned until 3rd October.
This course was adopted.
Ernest Joseph James Brookes, litho
grapher, on the ground that he was an
only son-— Exemption granted temporar
ily.
Peter Cram, grocer, on the ground that
he was an only son.— Exemption granted
temporarily.
George Black, compositor, on tne
ground that his only other brother had
enlisted prior to the 2nd October.—
Granted.
James Brown, conductor, on the ground
that he was the sole support of a widow
ed mother, who was in ill-health.— Ex-
enption granted while condition lasts.
Sydney Samuel Clemence, dairyman, on
the ground that he was an only son.—
Exemption granted conditionally.
Claude Brelaz, on the ground that he
was one of the sole supports of his
widowed mother, brothers, and sisters.
Lieut. Cale opposed the application,
and said there were five sons in the
family, two being eligible, but only one
was at the front.
Mr Harris— He is the sole supporter of
his mother and family.
Lieut. Cale— His mother has a wine
business.
In reply to the Police Magistrate, ap
plicant said his mother intended to retire
from the business.
The application was adjourned until
Friday morning, at 10 o’clock, for the
production of further evidence..
Maxwell Herbert Collins. on the
ground that he was the only son,—
Exemptioii granted.
Walter J. Cherry, decorator, on the
ground that he was a supporter of his
father and mother, both of whom were
drawing, pensions.
The Police Magistrate— Your applica
tion is refused. You are not the sole
supporter. Your parents are receiving
£l per week from the Commonwealth
Government.
Applicant— There is another reason
which I have found I can advance. I
am engaged in the making of steel toys.
The Police Magistrate— I am afraid I
cannot see that such a thing is in the
national interests. If. there was no Aus-
tralia, your toys would not be wanted.
If the war went against us, you would
make the toys for someone else.
Witness— That is’hardly feasible, un
der present circumstances.
The Police Magistrate— The application
is refused.
Percy William Crees, miner, on the
ground that two of his five brothers had
enlisted, and a third was going into
camp this week.— Exemption granted.
Rodney John Allen, fruiterer, on the
ground that two of four brothers were
going into camp under the Compuleory
Service Act. — Exemption granted, con
ditionally.
Wm. Alexander Atkins, clerk, em
ployed by the Ballarat Trustees Execu
tors and Agency Company, said he was
asking fbr exemption on the ground that
he was engaged by his employment at
Income Tax work, which was very in
tricate.
The Police Magistrate— But plenty of
other people can do that.
The applicant said he was being
specially trained for the work. The
Commissioner of Taxes had told him on
Saturday morning that he considered the
work to be of national importance.
The Police Magistrate— You will have
to produce other evidence to exempt
yourself.
Applicant— I am here at the request of
my employers.
The Poice Magistrate— I do not think
your work is work that cannot be taken
up by someono else. There must be
hundreds of people making up these taxa
tion returns. The application is re
fused.
Applicant— I would like to call the
company’s manager.
The Police Magistrate—Very well.
John glasson, manager of the Bal-
larat Trustees Executors and Agency
Company, said the work being perform-
ed by Mr Atkins was of a very difficult
character, and could only be undertaken
by an expert. He considered it to be of
national importance.
The Police Magistrate—You have made
out a good sympathetic cases, but no-
thing more. I cannot grant an exemp
tion.
Applicant—Can I appeal?
The Police Magistrate—Yes.
Harry Barswell, farmer on the
ground that he was an only son —
Granted.
Kennet Samuel Bertam Archer, ac
countant, on the ground that he was
a supporter of his parents and sister.
He had one married brother.
The Police Magistrate— You could con
tribute what you are paying your parents
if you enlisted. The application is re
fused.
Percival Frederick Bryde. on the
ground that his only brother was on
active service.— Granted.
Thomas Dunsta,. on the ground that
he was an only son, and was supporting
his another —Granted.
Ralph Hopetoun Bailey, on the
ground that he wa a supporter of his
parents. One brother had been serving
for two years, and a married brother had
been rejected four times.
The Police Magistrate — Under the
Act you must be the sole supporter of
your patentsl The application is re
fused.
Alfred George Dean, wood merchant,
on the grousd that he supported his
parents. He had four brothers, and one
was on active service, and one had en
listed that morning. His married bro
ther was in the business with nim.
The Police Magistrate — You do not’
come within the scope of the Act for
exemption. It must entail serious
domestic financial obligations. Your
application is refused.
Applicant — Can I appeal?
Tbe Police Magistrate — Certainly.
Mr Robert Banks asked for exemp
tion on the ground that he was the
sole supporter of his widowed mother
and three brothers.
The Polict Magistrate — You have a
brother earning 12/6 a week? — Yes.
Then you are not the solo sup
porter. The application is refused.
Alfred Geo. Mynro Elliott was
granted an exemption on the ground
that he was an only son.
Tlie court then adjourned till 10
o’clock this morning.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154697211
@MISCA,
Come back!
Jo: yep give St. Mary’s a call (47327640). I emailed yesterday although I’m sure Pat would have thought of it also when she first came up with her find in October last year. Seems that Geelong born (1912) Ian N. Robertson was himself an instrument maker and sparky cum chook farmer of Colyton NSW. He ended up in Rookwood Memorial (WW2) despite living right beside St. Mary’s where his dad seems to have been resting peacefully since 1973. Haven’t spent much time on this job, not being a claim jumper….if you get my drift!
Laird Bub: do you think American Colleen Fitz. may have mistaken Calvanist for Collective in re Dorothy’s last abode. I’d been working on a similar initiative with NSW towns starting with Col and having a t near the end ie. Colyton and Collector.
I’d been impressed with the latter because an early family built a mansion named
Windradeen nearby. Then I happened across an old post of Pat’s which mentioned the outer Sydney suburb of Colyton and tied it to her recent mention of St. Mary’s cemeterywith the unmarked Robertson grave. Could be a winner but, not for you nor any other interloping tealeaf! NB: St. Mary’s was the site of a large munitions filling factory during WW2 and JCR may himself have been familiar with it before heading north in 1943.
@John Sanders
From my (or strictly speaking my psychiatric nurse Ann O’s) comment on August 28, 2022 at 4:20 pm (ON CARL WEBB, TRUTH & BEAUTY…) when we introduced you to the Sparrows:
“From WikiTree entry for Cyril Sparrow: “In 1932 Cyril had to sell the home in Port Pirie and come to Adelaide…””
No need to quote more cos the important point is that Cyril’s WikiTree entry ends “He retired to coastal NSW and died at Bermagui in NSW in 1981.” So I knew that old Sparrow was in Bermagui before you’d even heard of him (or the town). Pitiable really that you have to make out you knew everything before anyone else even though you couldn’t possibly have done so since you didn’t even know what it was you were looking for. Known unknowns, unknown unknowns and all that.
See: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sparrow-1094
Just to remind you on August 25, 2022 at 10:59 pm you had posted “We’re told that he [Bennett] married a nurse (McIntyre???) and they had two or three billy lids”. You went on to say “Think he passed in Mebun mid eighties and that’s all I know Gods truth!” To be precise he died November 20, 1987 (aged 63) in “Malvern, Stonnington City, Victoria” after having his last practice in Bermagui. But now you’ll tell us you knew that ten years ago! Sad. Tragic even.
No-one but you and I have shown the slightest interest in the Sparrows anyway old bean, not even the FB “girls”!
@Jo
Nice to know you’re keepin’ up. I haven’t seen the film. Unfortunately Sigrid Thornton isn’t in it. How come it put food on your table? Great book though along with The Solid Mandala, The Vivisector and the short stories in The Cockatoos. Yer man Patrick was on a roll 1966-74.
Not heard that song before. Cheers. Did you know that Perth band The Triffids once “shared a rambling, run down house in Lawson Square, Redfern in Sydney”. Perhaps this song is about that time:
https://youtu.be/Bg8ss9-wouU?si=H683iN61ExzKV8HX
I’ve probably bored you before about the time I saw The Triffids in Manchester and for some reason ended up having a little competition with David McComb to see who could come up with the most Ray Charles song titles. I also piffed off Dave Faulkner of Hoodoo Gurus at the same venue but that’s another story.
jo: getting down to nuts and bolts without need for fruit salad, John Comber’s dad Robert Robertson was a half brother to William Thomas (1865-1943), and an uncle to Ian Nicoll Robertson (1912-1992) of Colyton, from which he becomes paternal first cousin to Dorothy. The William Robertson at St Mary’s cemetery who died ’73 doesn’t fit any missing family member and I’ve not been able to locate a memorial site for Ian’s wife Margaret Seton nee Jamieson (1920-2009). I haven’t heard back from the graves registration admin either, so over to you for the phone contact.
Fascinating stuff on communal share houses.
https://theconversation.com/share-houses-and-womens-liberation-a-forgotten-history-84069
@ Jo,
One commenter mentioned Kings Cross!
BoB: Oh, so you knew old man emu was at Berma. all along and decided to keep it to yourself for a rainy day then spring it we sharing punters, if short of accolades. That’s what a snake in the grass might do ie., HISSSSSSS.
‘Born to Lose’ on your list of Ray Charles song titles by any chance mugger? and, speaking of Redfern. Could that be where you got off?…(Google it)
…How’s aboot ‘Hit The Road Jack’…and don’t you come back no more…BOOR!
Pat: seems you missed William Robertson 1973 @ Saint Mary’s cemetery but, Ian’s dad died at Liverpool in ’43 while he was away at the war so it doesn’t matter now anyhow.
@John Sanders
You will have noted that Ian Nicoll Robertson lived at BENNETT Road in Colyton before moving west to Milham Street. Another weird coincidence.
I know you love all my anecdotes about my time in ‘stralia so I can with pride and pleasure tell you that I would have passed St Mary’s Cemetery on the Great Western Highway on the way up to (and down from) the Blue Mountains with my Welsh mate & driver Colin from the doss house in Edgecliff. Take that boyo!
Sydney share house conjures up images of the inner city though, not the environs of distant Penrith.
Can’t see Colleenee (geddit?) mixing Calvinist and colony up but who knows? As for your chooks I’ve always thought you were a bit of a cluck me old porker.
Margaret Seton Prosser, ex-wife of Ian, has a memorial at St Mary’s:
https://www.geni.com/people/Margaret-Prosser/6000000187153780899
I note that Ian was a Presbyterian according to his NAA file and he was married to Margaret 5 December 1942 at Mt Druitt Presbyterian Church, Penrith. Pat’s “Unknown” Robertson is listed at PRESBYTERIAN ROW. But as Robertson is a common Scottish name prob not too surprising.
You’ve suddenly become very silent on the Sparrow front!
@ JS,
Half brother? William Thomas Robertson’s birth register VIC BDM 1104/1865 says father Duncan Robertson and mother Robina Young, so he was Robert Robertson’s brother (not half-brother).
Ian Nicoll Robertson’s death notice (Sydney Morning Herald (28 April 1992, page 33) says he was late of St. Marys.
ROBERTSON, lan Nicoll. April 26. 1992.
At hospital (NX101484 2nd Armoured Div. 2nd A.I.F.). late of St. Marys, loving husband of Margaret, loving father and father-in-law of Margaret and (illegible)
Bruce and Christine, loved grand pa of (illegible). Aged 79 years. Lest we forget.
@ JS,
Margaret Seton Robertson
12 Aug 1919
29 June 2009
Pinegrove Memorial Park Lawn Cemetery
https://billiongraves.com/images?t=med36816613&col=1&cat=195720&rec=43839485
Ian Nicoll’s headstone, same cemetery
https://billiongraves.com/images?t=rec43733424&col=1&cat=195720&rec=43733424
According to a family tree on Ancestry, Margaret Seton Jamieson was born in Saskatchewan, Canada.
She married Ian Nicoll Robertson in 1942 (NSW BDM 32469/1942)
Margaret Seton Robertson’s death was mentioned in the 2010 edition of Northcott Disability Services, which has a unity in Penrith.
Margaret Seton Robertson’s death was mentioned in the 2010 edition of Northcott Disability Services, which has a unity in Penrith.
Her parents were Wlalter Smith Jamieson (1878-1974) and Barbara Brown Hobsburgh (1885-1959), both born in Scotland.
Her siblings were Leonora Christina (1922-2005), George Lyle Hobsburgh (1918-1918), James Gordon (1917-1995), and Charles Angel (1926-2008), all born in Canada (Regina or Melville, Saskatchewan).
Her grandparents were George Brown Hobsburgh (b. in Glasgow, 1854, d. 1928), and Margaret Nicol Seton (b. in Edinburgh in 1855, d. 1919).
Nicol and Nicoll!
Barbara Brown Jamieson (nee Hobsburgh) died in Sydney on 11 June 1959.
Her father was Walter (typo, JS!) and he died in 7 May 1974 and is interred at St Marys Cemetery, along with wife Barbara, and Margaret Seton Prosser.
https://billiongraves.com/images?t=med15309212&col=1&cat=150234&rec=17736292
@Pat We thought you wrote you could not access Ancestry?
Margaret Seton Prosser’s weird bio on Findagrave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/106559512/margaret-seton-prosser
Margaret Seton Prosser (nee Jamieson) was probably Barbara Browns’s sister, born in Scotland in 1912, before their parents moved to Canada. She’s not mentioned in the family tree on Ancestry probably because she emigrated to the US in 1955. Apparently she returned to Australia (or her ashes, according to her bio on Findagrave).
Sorry!
Margaret Seton Prosser (nee Horsburgh).
Margaret Seton Robertson (nee Jamieson).
Oops, sorry again. Margaret Seton Horsbugh (1912-2007) was probably Margaret Seton Jamieson ‘s sister (hence different surnames).
M.S. Horsburgh was born in Scotland, while all the other siblings were born in Canada. She probably married a Prosser before or after emigrating to the US.
M.S. Jamieson was born in Canada in 1919, married in Penrith, NSW to Ian Nicoll Robertson in 1942 and died as M.S. Robertson in 2009.
I’ll shut up now.
I lied! Just this last one…
Biography (courtesy of Bruce Bennett on Wikitree).
Ian Nicoll Robertson 22 Dec 1912 Geelong, served as a corporal in the AIF in 1945 and married Margaret Seton Jamieson in 5 December 1942 at Mt Druitt Presbyterian Church, Penrith and had Margaret 8 March 1945 and Donald Ian. [Nepean Times, 24 December 1942] Margaret was born in Sasketchewan, elder daughter of Walter Smith Jamieson and Barbara Brown Horsburgh. Ian served as a radio operator in Matilda Tank Unit and then at Milne Bay, and Finschafen until he was repatriated with malaria, then returned to serve in Borneo until the war ended. He returned to the poultry farm but with both parents now dead his heart was not in it. In 1949 Ian and Margaret were living at Bennett road, Colyton, poultry farm. In 1968 Ian Nicholl Robertson was a poultry farmer living at Bennett road St Mary’s, Macarthur with Margaret Seaton, Donald Ian soldier, Coralie Jean and Brent John. He was an electrician and worked as a charge hand for a company making electrical cooking equipment. He was retrenched after many years service and mowed lawns until he retired. [Bruce Robertson] Ian Nichol Robertson was at 23 Milham Street St.Marys for years around 1975, to 26 April 1992 when he died, and then Margaret Seton Robertson was at Milham Street in 2002 until she died in 2009. [Bruce Robertson]
Sources
Notes from son Bruce Robertson. Electoral rolls.
Beautiful wedding photo:
https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/b/b7/Robertson-15592.jpg
@ Peter Davidson
Judging by your Geni tree you seem to have thought that Margaret Seton Roberton marrried a Prosser, but now it’s clear that there were two different Margaret Seton!
Ooops again!
Margaret Seton Horsburgh (1878-1963) was Barbara Brown’s sister and she probably married a Prosser and Margaret Seton Prosser (1912-2007) was her daughter! So, she was Barbara’s and Walter Smith Jamieson’s niece and Margaret Seton Robertson’s cousin.
Pat: sorry for letting all these corrections through without correcting them, but I can’t work out which Margaret Seton was which. 😮
@ Rusty Bertha
I can’t, but if the owner of the a public tree has been cached by Google I can access a particular page by searching the person’s name.
@ Nick
Sorry, Nick! I think I know who she is now, just trying to find her father ‘Prosser’, but it really doesn’t matter. Apparently she died a spinster.
On FamilySearch Margaret Seton Prosser (b. 1912) has 5 entries:
1. Burial on Findagrave (2007)
2. Burial on Billion Graves (2007)
3. Immigration Illinois, Chigago (1955)
4. Naturalisation Illinois, Chicago (1955)
5. Immigration New Zealand (1960)
I suppose she emigrated to Illinois, then to New Zealand and died in NSW. The passenger list says Southampton and Mrs. Margaret Seton Prosser, but maybe she was a Miss… because her mother was Margaret Seton (Horsburgh) Prosser (according to her bio on Findagrave).
The bio on Findagrave seems correct . She died in 2007 but her ‘burial’ date is 7.7. 2015.
https://hwt.concordengage.com/penrithcemeteries/search/cemeteries/e62aef3c-8f8c-42b4-8630-fe81ab7da2f0/people/a535a128-2056-40c3-9174-98dab30f53b6
There are some ‘Telfer’ people buried in Pinegrove Cemetery, probably her cousin’s relatives.
Nick
I know you ignore my every single comment so you’ll probably ignore this one but if you had used the link I provided in my previous comment you would have seen that Margaret Seton Prosser has a memorial at St Mary’s with her parents’ (Walter Smith Jamieson and Barbara Brown Jamieson) names on the same stone. You didn’t even care when I solved your La Buse cartographic conundrums recently. Nor when I got the info from DA about the Sydney share house. C’est la vie!
According to Geni, Margaret Seton Prosser was born in St Mary’s, NSW on 9 April 1912, but Billiongraves states her birthplace as Scotland. She died in Illinois on 30 Dec 2007 but her “remains had been held unclaimed at Kane County, IL Coroner’s office until claimed by a cousin, Joan Telfer of New South Wales, Australia in 2013 and released to her in 2015 after verification. She moved to America about 1956.”
From Myheritage (I don’t have a subscription so there are blanks!):
“Margaret Seton Prosser (born Jamieson) was born on month day 1912, in birth place.
Margaret married Ian, Nicoll Robertson.
Ian was born on month day 1912, in birth place.
They had 2 children: Margaret Robertson and one other child.
Margaret lived in address, Illinois.
Margaret passed away on month day 2007, at age 95.
She was buried in burial place.”
A Richard Prosser married a Margaret Seton Horsburgh in 1911.
This chap:
“Born in Blythswood, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland on 29 Jul 1872 to Richard Prosser and Janet Rodger. Richard Prosser married Margaret Seton Horsburgh and had 6 children. He passed away on 2 March 1959 in Battersea, London, England.”
(From Ancestry – no subscription there either!)
So 2 Margaret Seton Prossers.
Our Margaret Prosser’s DAUGHTER Margaret was born in Saskatewan (sorry Bruce), not her. According to Pat there were two sisters both named Margaret Seton! A tad unusual methinks.
Either that or Peter Davidson has created one mighty SNAFU! Or is it me? Don’t know where OUR Margaret got the name Prosser though!
Ian Nicoll Robertson’s brother-in-law Charles Angel Jamieson was a Fourth division Technician in New South Wales.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232989176?searchTerm=%22charles%20angel%20jamieson%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/240882944?searchTerm=%22charles%20angel%20jamieson%22#
And there was a Margaret Seton Angel (not sure if she’s related) that had a property in Albury, NSW in 1952, and is mentioned in Hume and Ferrer electoral districts until her death in 1959.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/220013231?searchTerm=%22margaret%20seton%22#
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/?name=margaret+seton_angel&location=5027&name_x=1_1&priority=australian
@ Rusty Bertha,
Anyone without an Ancestry subscription can access this via Google.
https://www.ancestry.ca/genealogy/records/barbara-brown-horsburgh-24-80y7w9
@Pat
Great find on share houses in Oz.
From my comment of December 1, 2023 at 11:23 am: “…don’t give up the idea that Doff was a polysexual free love bohemian type in her later years.” From the article you linked: “The inhabitants experimented with polyamory and spent many hours discussing “how not to be jealous” – with “zero success”…”
From my comment of December 2, 2023 at 12:23 pm, before your link was up: “Sydney share house conjures up images of the inner city though, not the environs of distant Penrith.” From the article: “In these experimental living arrangements, typically located in inner urban suburbs, women were free to become activists, creatives, hedonists and intellectuals.”
Boy you’ve confused me with all those Margaret Seton Prosser/Jamieson/Horsburgh/Robertsons!
@John Sanders
At the time (mid ’80s) I was more into Ray’s ’50s Atlantic R’n’B stuff than all that ’60s crap with strings (love that too now!) To pick a title which you could benefit from most, ‘Tell The Truth’ mate. Of course you’ve always had a ‘Losing Hand’ which leaves you saying ‘It Should’ve Been Me’ when I scoop you as I usually do. Yes bud, I’m ‘Talkin’ “Bout You’ so don’t ‘Mess Around’!
No. I never got off at Redfern. Homebush all the way for me pal. And like I said no-one is interested in our Sparrow talk so what’s the point my little sparrow-fart.
‘What’d I Say ‘!
This gets more confusing!
According to Ancestry, Margaret Seton Prosser,1912-2007, born in Eastwood, Scotland, was the daughter of Maggie Seton Horsburgh and Richard Prosser
1873 – 1959. [see my earlier comment] One of 6 kids her siblings were:
Janet Rodger Prosser
1913 – 1989
Alaina Prosser
1916 – 2002
Alaina Prosser
1916 – 2002 (ie listed twice)
Mary Prosser
1918 – 1919
Carolina Prosser
1918 – 1978
So was Margaret Seton Prosser Barbara and Walter Jamieson’s niece as Pat said?
But according to Myheritage:
“Barbara Brown Jamieson (born Horsburgh) [Margaret Seton Horsburgh’s sister] was born on month day 1885. [b Govanhill]
Barbara married Walter Smith Jamieson.
Walter was born on month day 1878, in birth place.
They had one daughter: Margaret Seton Prosser (born Jamieson).
Barbara passed away on month day 1959, at age 74.”
Backed up by these in Trove?:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/117891720?searchTerm=%22margaret%20seton%20jamieson%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17795885?searchTerm=%22ian%20nicoll%20robertson%22
And who was Pat’s:
Margaret Seton Robertson
12 Aug 1919
29 June 2009
Pinegrove Memorial Park Lawn Cemetery?
If Margaret Seton Prosser was not the Jamieson’s daughter why was she memorialised on the same stone? But if she was why Prosser?
I give up on this one!
PS Billiongraves should have been Find A Grave in my previous comment.
Pat: You seem to have managed to tag a lot more search indices since rePatriation from Brasil and good for you too. You may find details of my personal coincidental connection with Ian’s son Donald that Bruce Bennett (Robertson) refers to in the bio other than his having been a soldier which be a sad indictment, Also a typicaly sad ending in 1979 that I wasn’t aware of until just yesterday and about which I’ll need to obtain details.
By the way Pat, you might like to inform us less knowledgeable punters what the outcome of your own inquiries were regarding the unmarked (Robertson) grave at St. Mary’s. Might save Jo and others the need for uneccessary prolonged research.
Pat: William Thomas and Robert Robertson were both fathered by Duncan as you correctly assert; being born to different mothers however makes my “half-brother” determination the correct familial relationship and yours wrong therefore. …Sorry genealogy research indices can be tricky as you will surely be cognisant of by now.
Lord CoB: I already read every comment before approving it (just imagine that, after 47930 comments), wanting me to be magisterial as well is just not going to happen. I was able to work out most of the Margaret Seton conundrum though not quite enough to really want to unravel it fully. The La Buse fake/miscopied map desperately needs a whole new post now, I do genuinely appreciate your input there, but it’s going to take a whole load of work from me to get it all into a half-decent shape again. Oh well!
Nick Pelling: perhaps that was the real intention! You might remind Pat that her genealogical informant to whom she has of late become dependent upon, whilst quite remarkable, was without doubt a contributing factor in misidentifying the single most important player in the original Somerton Man mystery.
@ Lord CoB
My Heritage is wrong. Barbara and Walter Smith Jamieson’s daughter was Margaret Seton Jamieson (1919-2009).. She became Margaret Seton Robertson and is interred at the same cemetery as her husband Ian Nicoll Robertson (Pinegrove Park Lawn Cemetery).
Margaret Seton Prosser (1912-2007) was the daughter of Margaret Seton Hosburgh and Richard Prosser as you have checked on Ancestry (unfortunately I don’t have a subscription). She died in the US and her ashes were claimed by her cousin Joan Telfer of NSW who interred or scattered them on her sister’s and brother-in-law’s grave site (St Marys General Cemetery).
@ JS
Are you saying Victoria BDM birth registration for William Thomas Robertson is wrong? Who was his mother?
Oh I see that Richard was probably her father… anyway. ‘Our’ Margaret Seton Robertson (nee Jamieson), has a nice headstone at Pinegrove Cemetery.
She was around the same age as ‘our’ Doff and lived in NSW, which is what I think it’s interesting.
@ Lord CoB
I think the quote you posted is not from My Heritage, but from Geni? As I said in a previous post, Peter Davidson (the admin of the profile on Geni) got the Margarets mixed up, which isn’t difficult!
It’s quite simple when you consider the dates of birth and death, 1912 v 1919 and 2007 v 2009.
The only thing I still don’t get is why the New Zealand passengers list called her Mrs. Margaret Seton Prosser when it’s clear that she was a spinster (had her father’s surname).
@ JS
I haven’t contacted St Marys Cemetery because I trust Jo will do a far better job than myself. I have no idea if it’s Doff’s grave. As Lord CoB says, it’s more likely that she was in a share house in Sydney, so I’m not holding my breath. Anyway, that’s what a researcher does, innit? By ruling out possible matches we’re certainly closer to the truth than we were before. Nobody said it was going to be easy, and I know, it’s only rock’n’roll but I like it.
At first bluff, it would seem that we have a gal on the run in 1956 with a need to get out of Dodge but quick. By using credentials like the old Canadian passport and/or other ID documents of Margaret Seton Robertson nee Jamieson, she would thus be able to obtain fresh travel docs. then relocate stateside in Chicago il. and feel safe from Angas St. filth in far off Adelaide. Her later trip back home via New Zealand in 1960 as an American citizen with her US passport should not have caused any red flags and likewise her later return Stateside to die in poverty?. Not very intuitive CM armchair sleuths will no doubt be stumped as to who our fleeing feloness could possibly have been? … buncha flamin lamebrains one & all. Whacha reckon Peteb
Has anyone previously eliminated:
Jean Robertson
born abt 1920
died 6 August 1975
Woronara Cemetery
Sutherland NSW
https://imgur.com/9JshysH
BoB: Balls, to you on your deep fake appreciation of Ray Charles R & B stuff of the 50s (a pittance), as opposed to “60’s crap with strings” which if you knew anything about his career “Ain’t Necessarily So”. You obviously picked that shit up from the great man’s Wiki bio just yesterday and now your a big fan. A load of bollocks and if you think for a minute you can play me for a know F. Hall sap on Ray Charles hits, then “You Don’t Know Me” from a jatz cracker!
Pat: apologies be in order; almost sure I had Duncan with two wives but Bruce Bennett’s tree says otherwise. So I’ll chalk one up for you with pleasure. So let’s confirm William Thomas and John Comber Robertson were uncle and nephew resp. which leaves Dorothy and Ian some kind of paternal cousins I guess. Sorry!
https://imgur.com/a/3WexOn0
Another Jean Robertson at Woronara (cremated), whose date of death, in 2000, is Carl’s birthday! (16.11.2000)
@Jo Try The Ryerson Index Website for newspaper death notices: your Jean Robertson is notified as 55 late of St Peters in Sydney Morning Herald 7th August 1975.
@ Johnno – sorry, meant to add that the last one is commemorated at the Henry Lawson Garden at Woronora! Perhaps you could check that one out, whilst spouting a line or two from the Bulletin’s erstwhile ballardist!
@Jo Find a Grave search (remember sometimes using less information is more) https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/184761299/jean-robertson
Jo: I have several rels at Woronora and there are some part players from the good old Somerton Man days out there as well. All presumably at peace, though poor Gweneth Dorothy Graham, Joseph Haim Saul Marshall’s hair dresser friend who died by her own hand? would not be one of them.
@Pat
The info I quoted for Margaret Seton Prosser was from MyHeritage:
https://www.myheritage.com/research?s=1&formId=master&formMode=1&useTranslation=1&exactSearch=&action=query&p=1&view_mode=card&qname=Name+fn.Margaret%2F3seton+ln.prosser
But I think it was taken from Geni!
Ian Nicoll Robertson is here: (Anyone got a subscription?)
https://www.myheritage.com/research?s=1&formId=master&formMode=1&useTranslation=1&exactSearch=0&action=query&qname=Name+fn.ian%2F3nicoll+ln.Robertson
I don’t have an Ancestry subscription either but I find that if I Google a full name with birth date (and death date if applicable) the Ancestry option often becomes available. Just click on the link- eg:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/richard-prosser-24-dt7mnz?geo_a=r&o_iid=41013&o_lid=41013&o_sch=Web+Property
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/genealogy/records/george-brown-horsburgh-24-80y7p5?geo_a=r&o_iid=41013&o_lid=41013&o_sch=Web+Property
Your Margaret Seton Robinson is here:
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Margaret-Seton-Robertson/43839485
And Ian on BillionGraves:
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Ian-Nicoll-Robertson/43733424
Can’t read the writing!
I had concluded that the Jamiesons had adopted Barbara’s sister’s kid but if the Margaret born in 1912 isn’t the one who married Ian but Barbara’s niece then why put her name on her uncle and aunt’s stone? Just Joan Telfer’s whim I suppose.
But John Sanders thinks he knows more than us: “Not very intuitive CM armchair sleuths will no doubt be stumped as to who our fleeing feloness could possibly have been? … buncha flamin lamebrains one & all. Whacha reckon Peteb” (December 3, 2023 at 4:16) For what he and Peteb get up to when they think no-one is watching or listening see below. Why anyone gives this wretch the time of day eludes me.
@John Sanders
Let’s cut to the chase. You are a sad, pathetic, embittered, twisted, sick, old excuse for a human being who hangs around these discussions like a sticky remnant of dog mess that you just can’t clean off your shoe.
Those Ray Charles songs were all on a compilation on Charly Records – Tell the Truth (Charly R&B – CRB 1071) – from 1984 which I bought soon after release. Full tracklist:
A1 Mess Around
A2 It Should’ve Been Me
A3 Losing Hand
A4 Greenbacks
A5 I’ve Got A Woman
A6 This Little Girl
A7 Hallelujah I Love Her So
A8 Drown In My Own Tears
B1 Leave My Woman Alone
B2 Lonely Avenue
B3 That’s Enough
B4 Talkin’ “Bout You
B5 You Be My Baby
B6 The Right Time
B7 Tell The Truth
B8 What’d I Say
https://www.discogs.com/release/3153080-Ray-Charles-Tell-The-Truth
If you’re not too frightened to use the link you can click on More images and see the record and the sleeve for yourself. Meanwhile I only have to pop upstairs to get the real thing. Dumbass!
David McComb is dead so he can’t confirm the details of our little discussion but I doubt he’d remember it anyway. Unlike the equally late Rowland S Howard of The Birthday Party who mentioned one of my heckles in an interview for a book about Nick Cave as the only thing he remembered about the few dates he played with The Bad Seeds in 1985! “Rowlo give us a solo.”
I also bought records on the Charly label in the mid ’80s by the likes of Jimmy Reed, John Lee Hooker, Big Joe Turner, Roy Brown, Wynonie Harris, Solomon Burke, Otis Redding, Hank Ballard & The Midnighters, The Five Royales, Bobby Bland, Jerry Lee Lewis and others. I also bought many similar albums on the rival Ace label. Still got ’em all too even if I rarely play my vinyl these days. And I know most of Ray’s ’60s material didn’t have strings, but too many of the songs were smothered with them (imo). I also have a couple of vinyl comps with some of that ABC-Paramount stuff on. Ray could still do jazz!
Just because you’re the biggest bullshitter on the planet don’t judge everyone else by your abysmally low standards.
@All
Just look at this garbage – two dirty, filthy old men talking about someone who has just made a contribution on Tbt:
“john sanders #
Facebook Jo’s gotta be 65 if she’s a day and a Limey non tubber to boot. You work on her all you like brother, just don’t expect me to look on.
December 3, 2023
peterbowes #
When you’re my age matey, 65 is spunkerage.
December 3, 2023”
Yugh! Didn’t know you were older than me tho’ Jo! I’m 65 next week and I don’t even get a bus pass, let alone a pension here in Blighty.
@Nick
Sorry my name isn’t Pat, Poppins, Jo or Behrooz. I’ve worked damn hard this week on chasing up leads but if you just choose to be sarky do be it.
After browsing St Marys General Cemetery Presbyterian section, and 2000 interments, I’m convinced the unnamed ‘Robertson’ is not Dorothy, for two reasons:
1. Anna and James Robertson’s graves are at the same plot (Presbyterian Row E);
2. Many people who have been interred in 2000 only have their surnames listed (possibly an administration ‘thing’ of that year).
And before you start, JS, no, I haven’t been to the cemetery (in flesh or astral body) and I have no idea what or who are you talking about, regarding “genealogy informant’. All I can do from this side of the pond is to browse the internet and frequently I have to browse 10x more than you guys to find anything useful given that I don’t have any paid subscriptions right now due to unemployment. So please, stop this shite. I don’t talk to anyone outside this forum, except for David Morgan who, unfortunately, is battling against a serious health condition at the moment. Keep your dirty fingers crossed for him, will ya?
@ Lord CoB
I had already posted a link to the graves of Margaret Seton and Ian Nicoll Robertson. Here is a link to the images.
https://imgur.com/a/gu8Y1NC
@ Lord CoB
Margaret Seton Prosser died in the US in 2007 as a spinster, no one had claimed her ashes until 2013 when her cousin Joan Telfer did it and after the ashes had been released in 2015, she payed for a cemetery plaque at the same plot where Margaret’s aunt was interred. I suppose all other Margaret’s closer relatives were dead or didn’t care!
We know that she moved to the US in 1955 (immigration and naturalisation) and is also listed as a passenger to New Zealand in 1960, which I suppose she was just visiting?
Her bio on Findagrave:
Cremains had been held unclaimed at Kane County, IL Coroner’s office until claimed by a cousin, Joan Telfer of New South Wales, Australia in 2013 and released to her in 2015 after verification. She moved to America about 1956.
Listed as “Storekeeper” at Illinois State Training School for Girls, Geneva, Illinois in 1958.
Lived at various addresses in Geneva (101 N 1st St., 1976 and 27 W State St., unknown year) and St. Charles (1700 Walnut, Apt. 7, 1993) over the years.
Daughter of Margaret Seton Horsdurgh [sic] Prosser (1878-1963).
Margaret Seton Robertson’s (née Jamieson) brother Charles Angel was knocked down by a car aged 6 in 1932:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/237040822?searchTerm=%22charles%20angel%20jamieson%22
But happily he survived to marry a Dorothy Jean (!) Thompson (!) in 1950:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/117918397?searchTerm=%22walter%20jamieson%22
Margaret and Ian Robertson’s son Donald was born Oct 21 1946:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18000756?searchTerm=%22donald%20ian%20robertson%22
According to PeteDavo on Geni Donald “died June 13, 1979 (32-33) Saint Marys, NSW”, and his sister Margaret was “born March 08, 1945 in Sasketchewan [sic]”. Bruce Bennett has it (WikiiTree) that in 1968 Ian Nicholl [sic] Robertson was a poultry farmer living at Bennett road St Mary’s, Macarthur with Margaret Seaton [sic] , Donald Ian soldier, Coralie Jean and Brent John.”
Bastards, Bums, Bollocks and Buggers. I’m outta here before I lose it again!
Joan Telfer on MyHeritage with photos of Jamieson family (see James Gordon Jamieson):
https://www.myheritage.com/site-518885101/joan%E2%80%99s-tree
Click on View older news.
Family tree for Margaret Seton Jamieson:
https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-518885101/joan%E2%80%99s-tree
Click on individuals for more info.
Bleeeearghhh!
I think it’s safe to say my email to the possible Dorothy school was trashed, binned and possibly incinerated on delivery …. if another designated writer/contactor (Jo?) would like to try to get the info I would be more than happy to go to said location following on instructions, if one is time poor, and sift through it all. Ah well, I did try …. alas, I lost ’em at “hello”
@ Poppins – never say never, schools are so busy at this time of year!
@ Lord CoB (on) – not 65 but I am old enough to look after myself!
I’ve had a forage through Ancestry & will summarise, but basically no promising leads… The one mention of a Dorothy Lockyer in Kings Cross could be of interest and there is a DJR in Merimbula NSW who doesn’t seem to be attached to a family… other than that dead ends.
@misca!
Don’t come anywhere near this God awful mess if you know what’s good for you. Keep in touch with Pat o rato’s endless boucler la boucle if you dare, take care!
BoB: don’t worry about the bus ticket tight arse; just jump under one and avoid the fare. Alternative being to hop the special train from Redfern (mortuary siding) and you’ll be set down at Rookwood cemetery. Well that’s how Henry Lawson or one of them described it!
“Why anyone gives this wretch the time of day eludes me.” – seems a somewhat ironic comment given much of that post itself seems to focus on said wretch…..
If one coming to Aust. circa.1960s for a brief stay, not having an address but, intending to collect their mail at a GPO; what do they write in the customs declaration form under ‘Intended place of stay’ say?
Jo: re your first Jean Robertson at Woronora formerly of St. Peters (just the place for a shared tenancy). As per Bennett bios (lo Bruce), William Thomas Robertson worked his trade as carpenter and lived at St. Peters before moving further out to rural Colyton and setting up chook farm. That must have been pre WW1 but it’s possible he kept a rental pad in town and it was passed down to young Ian in ’43. Pity we didn’t have more info. from Fag…There’s your queue Jo ‘What Would I Do Without You’ Lord CoB?
Jo: got a one in a million chance fun fact relating to your otherwise dead end Jean Roberson of Henry Lawson Gardens Woronora unless..unless a lass of a certain age out of Mebun ex Manchester be savy enough to test this fool’s knowledge of Henry Lawson’s works. Maybe I should keep it mum chum!
Second thoughts Jo, BoB maybe champing at the bit & on tenter hooks. Turns out Jean’s pathetic husband Harry Dale Robertson of Marrickville (St. Peters) had been a military conscript who was sentenced to two years in the stockade for desertion.
Harry was junior to Jean by four years, and was misnamed for my Henry Lawson’s fated hero ‘Harry Dale the drover’ of 1889 poem ‘Ballad of the Drover’ immortality.
I notice on his plaque of 1978 alongside Jean’s of 1975, Harry be just your average worlds greatest dad etc. Sure hope that Clare & John haven’t yet seen their pop’s NAA service record, two files of which are on line and a must for mil. history buffs.
I’m loving the irony Julian; serves as a gauge to how long it might be before he cracks completely. Just so long as our esteemed moderator has organised other means by which to get his cheap thrills.
Hope David Morgan is ok. Get well soon Dai bach!
@Julian/milongal
Irony is always lost on Australians. Personally speaking I think you are as much of a rotter as Sanders. and far more boring.
@Jo
I take the offence given by that degenerate duo entirely on my own shoulders. Obviously you are ok with the verbal bullying of women, which is your choice. I will continue to call out sexism and misogyny where and when I see fit, whether you like it or lump it.
@Nick
You mean to say you read everyone one of Behrooz’s posts all the way through? I take my hat off to you sir and if you ever head down the M4 to Bristol (not a rotten borough near Bristol, but the city itself) look me up and I’ll buy you a couple of pints of scrumpy in my local cider house!
@Pat
I know you linked those Robertson graves before me but when I clicked on the links you provided on Billiongraves I just got the home page. Thanks for your subsequent Imgur link – I can now see the inscriptions crystal clear. You are obviously more tech savvy than me! I don’t even possess a camera (or mobile phone).
Despite the probability that the unknown Robertson grave isn’t Dorothy’s she may still have been in touch with Ian and Margaret. Poor old Margaret Seton Prosser. Did she ever even visit Oz (whilst she was alive)? Looks like it’s just you and me against the devil incarnate since Jo (who I like very much) is completely in the Bowes/Sanders camp and Poppins (who I also like very much) is firmly non-committal.
@John Edward Sanders
When I think of your foul personage I always think of Albert Steptoe:
https://youtu.be/guSSrBjpqQU?si=nlAmXtIyfmtsz7xM
On the other hand you and milongal are the Hinge and Bracket of CM:
https://youtu.be/_emloH91VnU?si=MERg7Z0vk-BI7QaP
Try putting Doff into the first name field of the death notices search of The Ryerson Index Website. Leave the other fields blank then search. Have fun.
@ Lord CoB
Sorry, I thought you have missed that post. You have to register (free) to be able to see the full resolution photos on Billion Graves.
I hear you, Jay Ass is a mysoginistic bully. I’ll ignore hiim from now on. Better late than never.
Thanks for the links to Joan Telfer’s site on My Heritage. I hope she’s still around, it would be interesting if someone could send her a message asking if she knew of Margaret and Ian, and maybe a cousin from Melbourne. Unfortunately my subscription has ended in August.
@CoB I don’t really understand how that idiom relates to anything I said (other than it has the word “irony” in it). As for you thinking I’m a bigger rotter than JS – I’m sure you’ll not be surprised that I couldn’t really give a rats left testicle what you think of me. I suppose I should be offended that you added the “…far more boring”. Oh well.
@Jo, thanks, I’ll hang in there a bit longer then. And in order to lower my self-esteem even further, heck, why not, I decided to write to another school for good measure, the North one, same distance really. Will head to the library and check out that anniversary book soon, I see it’s at Vic State,
@David Morgan, hope you’re back treading the Somerton Man boards again soon, miss you here, hope you’re feeling better soon ….. take care.
Hey, wonder if Dorothy’s one of these little rascals!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223899204?
searchTerm=school%20north%20brunswick
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223995031?searchTerm=school%20north%20brunswick
I’m at a loss for words for once and it’s only 0400. Cat’s out hunting up breakfast and I’m halfway through my three in one. So it’s gonna be another zippidy doo da day in paradise…and still lost thanks Huey.
Ode to Lord CoB (fragments)
Some call him frivolous Lord CoB,
A malevolent no account Slob;
With a heart hard and yeller,
And an all ’round fart smeller,
Is deep fake Lord CoB.
So take your Rubaiyat, suitcase and clothes
To milongal or some one who knows.
Scheming Lord CoB be in league with the devil
Ol’ Macka’s always been dead on the level;
Unlike Deep fake Lord CoB.
@Poppins Years 3 to 8 on the second link. I assume 3 in ordered groups of rows back to 8. About year 4 for Dorothy if there?
None of my business but, a sort of off logic has me thinking that Doff may have began her schooling in 1925 at St. Michaels, moved to Brunswick in 1927, Geelong in 1930 for a week after Xmas hols, then resumed at Brunswick in 2/30. Seems that the Robertsons were moving about in those years from what we’re informed of JCR’s itinrant work history. Both the kids Doff and young Phyllis may well have been farmed off with relatives in between jobs which not unusual quite for those times.
I received a reply to my query on the Robertson grave found by Pat.
The upshot is that the site was most likely reserved by the Robertson family but has never been used. There is no interment date and no name attached to this site. Usually there would be a burial date and the name of a descendant if a burial had taken place. 28.4.00 is the date on which information was entered into the electronic management system.
Penrith have no record of burial for Dorothy Jean Robertson.
@ Poppins- there’s a fair chance she could be & it would make sense for a new student to enrol at a new school! We know that she left Geelong at the end of February 1930!
A certain, ahem, gentleman, on another site which I don’t care to advertise, has commented today about “Ciphermysteries, Big Footy, SM Ultimate, Web Sleuths and FB Identifying SM, having naught to say” about the SAPOL letter which another, ahem, gentleman recently received from their Media and Public Engagement Section.
Not strictly true. On FB ISM I asked Derek Abbott a couple of days ago: “Do you have any inside info on the imminent SAPOL report that Peter Bowes has recently trumpeted on his blog?” but as yet have received no reply. Don’t expect one either.
Thanks to this, ahem, gentleman’s intervention I was reminded of the Websleuths SM forum so decided to take a look. I came across a very insightful and well thought out comment from Jan 20 by one Iamshadow21 who describes themself as an amateur forensic geek. I reproduce it in full:
“It [SM’s identity] has been technically solved, but by a world renowned genetic genealogist working for a private citizen.
The identity has not been confirmed by the police, formally. It may never be, if they do not accept the newer techniques developed to identify long unidentified decedents. Their regular procedure – comparing the DNA of a Doe to a known sample from a hairbrush, toothbrush, or tissue or blood sample taken before death – does not apply here. Neither does comparing his DNA to a parent, sibling or child.
But one of the founders of genetic genealogy as a specialty, one of the most highly regarded genetic genealogists in the world, has said she is certain in her identification.
So.
For all intents and purposes outside the rigid boxes of the law and bureaucracy, Somerton Man is Charles Webb.
For the legal system of Australia and the Coroner’s court, Somerton Man is still an unidentified decedent.
Hence why Charles ‘Carl’ Webb is not, and may never be in the header of this thread, and why this thread may never be moved to the Identified forum.”
Against this, those world renowned genetic genealogists, three of the most highly regarded genetic genealogists in the world, Messrs Bowes, Sanders and Cramer have opined that Colleen doesn’t know what she’s talking about and Carl Webb is not SM (one even stating “remembering that Colleen Fitzpatrick had nothing to do with claiming Webb was SM” -Eh????).
I leave readers to pass judgment on this matter.
That forum has been hijacked by GC masquerading as Ancora Imparo, meaning “Yet, I am learning.” You’re taking your bloody time Mr Cramer!
Jo: Don’t know if you called Penrith or phoned. I received a very friendly reply to my email in much the same vein and am happy to re produce it for the punters if deemed necessary.
@Julian
On reflection I withdraw the remark that I made about you in a previous comment. You aren’t a complete shit like JS. Unlike him I have a conscience and don’t go around trying to deliberately humiliate people even if I do enjoy the cut and thrust of a good argument! I hope in future that we can have a constructive and fruitful dialogue about this case which you obviously know a lot about.
I was using the word irony in its older sense as the deliberate, intentional “use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning” – I was aware of the contradiction between what I said about JS in my comment and the following remarks which were all about or directed at him. You seemed to have used the word in its more modern and casual sense. As Merriam Webster puts it “The word irony has come to be applied to events that are merely curious or coincidental, and while some feel this is an incorrect use of the word, it is merely a new one.”
@Pat
When I was a young child, if my dear departed Mamma wasn’t in the mood to talk to me she just used to say the word “arsehole”, not as an insult directed at me but as a method of shutting me up. I suggest that we start using this word as a way to close Sanders down.
I do take great offence at his use of misogynistic putdowns to silence women. He constantly belittles, demeans, gaslights and viciously attacks female commenters here and elsewhere. As a man some might feel it ain’t my place to intervene on this issue but I believe many women who used to comment here have stopped commenting or maybe many more who would comment are completely put off by such antics. When he and Bowes, a depraved double act if ever there was one, used a sexual putdown against another contributor I was incandescent with rage – on my own behalf I should add. Unfortunately that contributor then attacked ME (presumably she thought I was trying to be a “knight in shining armour” – not my style!) and cheerily continued her cosy chat with Sanders and Bowes.
You can’t win!
It looks like Joan Telfer’s last contribution on MyHeritage was 2019 so maybe she’s not around any more.
@John Sanders
Arsehole.
Bob: Arsehole with a capital ‘A’. Certainly no ‘put down’ there far as your average everyday arseholes go. That aside, doesn’t stop me referring to your sad sorry self as a capital arse licker…and biter too truth be known!
Just wasted a morning looking at some old posts on Websleuths.
One tidbit leapt out at me. Xlamb (yes I know all about that kerfuffle here about HC Reynolds) said on March 29 2014:
“I previously mentioned that SM is found on the one year anniversary of Aleister Crowley’s death (1/12/47) also, and that Crowley was coined as “The Great Beast from the Biblical Book of Revelations”… plus the importance my father [we ALL know who that is] placed on him, and the weird little groups he was involved in back in the 50’s/60’s and70’s.”
Well, I have previously mentioned Crowley here myself a couple of times, in some (wild) speculations that SM had been into the “dark arts” in some way. Given Doff’s description of Carl Webb I for one wouldn’t be too surprised if he dabbled.
Xlamb’s idea isn’t as out there as it may seem. British record producer Joe ‘Telstar’ (a huge fave of mine in 1962) Meek who was obsessed by the occult, UFOs etc killed himself (after murdering his landlady) on the 8th anniversary of Buddy Holly’s death, on 3 Feb 1967.
From Wikipedia:
“Meek became fascinated with the idea of communicating with the dead. He would set up tape machines in graveyards in an attempt to record voices from beyond the grave, in one instance capturing the meows of a cat he believed was speaking in human tones, asking for help. In particular, he had an obsession with Buddy Holly (saying the late American rocker had communicated with him in dreams). By the end of his career, Meek’s fascination with these topics had taken over his life following the deterioration in his mental health, and he started to believe that his flat contained poltergeists, that aliens were substituting his speech by controlling his mind, and that photographs in his studio were trying to communicate with him.”
From’ The Curse of Buddy Holly’:
“While Holly was touring England in 1958, he received an ominous message from Joe Meek, a British recording engineer and producer. On a night in January of that year, Meek had attended a tarot reading. The message delivered that night was “February third, Buddy Holly, dies.” Holly thanked Meek for the warning, but did not seem concerned since February the third had already passed. Buddy Holly would die on 3 February 1959.”
https://www.angelfire.com/music5/archives/curseofholly.html
Cripes!
I’ve also posted here before about the Witch of Kings Cross, Rosaleen Norton “artist and witch who made her home in Darlinghurst, near Sydney’s Kings Cross, in the 1940s and ’50s scandalising the conservative establishment…For most of her adult life, Norton lived in dimly lit apartments where she made art and practised witchcraft with vagrants and bohemians… ” According to the article I’ve quoted from:
“Norton’s tradition drew upon diverse sources such as Kundalini yoga, tantra, voodoo and the works of Aleister Crowley, an infamous English occultist who established Thelema, a spiritual philosophy claimed to be scribed by an otherworldly being named Aiwass.
Norton’s personal deity was Pan, the hoofed Greek god of the wild, which the media consistently confused with Satan.
During rituals, Norton and members of her coven would wear animal masks and attempt to put themselves in trances to communicate with otherworldly beings.”
“Depending on the reports used, Norton’s coven had as few as seven members or as many as 300.”
“Fuelling media sensationalism was the degree to which Norton would incorporate sex into her ritual practice.
“Sex magic” has a long history in Thelema-inspired occultism and Norton was particularly enthusiastic in incorporating this into her magical practice.
Norton would achieve orgasm and incorporate psychedelic drugs into her ritual practice, further helping sensationalist headlines.”
“Today, Norton has developed a niche set of fans who either view her as representing a lost bohemian Sydney or as an early pioneer of sex-positive feminism, who refused to buckle to the patriarchal figures of her time.”
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/the-witch-of-kings-cross-kiwi-occultist-who-scandalised-sydney/CMPYFZGW5B26MMJPLZBI3JIEJI/
Aren’t some looking for Doff in The Cross?
On 23 March 2016 on Websleuths someone calling themself Nick Pelling stated:
“…too much testosterone and odd agendas in the air right now.:-(”
Plus ça change!
A couple of days later he writes mournfully:
“Both Pete Bowes and Gordon Cramer have recently devoted entire webpages to openly abusing me, in ways that I consider utterly disrespectful, shabby, and perilously close to libellous.”
Shortly afterwards one Ancora Imparo protested that: “This is my first post her [sic] and a little shocked to see the words of Nick Pelling.” Really Gordon, you are so damned transparent!
I’m posting all my SM comments on this thread as otherwise they would be quickly lost (good riddance I hear) even if they aren’t strictly relevant to Doff.
@ Jo
The Dorothy Jean Robertson listed in the Eden-Monaro electoral district is not our Dorothy.
She is mentioned in the 12 Dec 1984 Commonwelth of Australia Gazette under ‘Grants of Certificates of Australian Citizenship’, living at Bimbimbie Monaro St, Merimbula 2548, NSW.
Any news about ‘Dorothy Lockyer’?
While looking for Dorothy’s cousins I came across her aunt Jane Arundel Stratford’s sad story.
She married Anthony Edward Corvan Brown in 1915, lost her daughter (12 hours old) Jennice Lorraine Brown in 28 Aug 1918 and her husband in 1919.
One curious thing is that BDM Victoria entries for Jennice Lorraine Brown’s birth and death have different fathers:
BROWN
Jennice Lorraine
Birth
Jean Arundel
STRATFORD
Anthony Edw Corven
ARARAT
1918
16079/1918
BROWN
Jennice Lorraine
Death
Gene Arundel
STRATFORD
Brown Richd
Arat
1 Day
1918
7136/1918
Her grave on Findagrave lists her as Janice Lorraine Brown and her bio says she was the daughter of Richard Brown.
I have checked Anthony Edward Corvan Brown on FamilySearch. His father was Robert Brown and he didn’t have any brother named Richard.
Who is Richard Brown?
Corvan and Brown Genealogy in Britain, Bendigo and Auckland. I suppose Anthony Edward Corvan Brown is the son or grandson of someone here!
https://corvangenealogy.blogspot.com
Lord CoB,
While I’m an agnostic on the subject of post-life communication, I do think making it a profession or obsession is a bit like bringing a mobile phone to the dinner-table. Surely they can find a few people among the 8 billion of us who are worth their time and conversation? Actually what are called ‘tarot’ cards have an interesting story. Although he hadn’t much sense of the medieval social situation, the late Professor Dummett wrote two books about it. One large book called ‘The Game of Tarot’ – I have a copy from him – and another for card-players called ‘Twelve Tarot Games’. the pack has been used continuously in Italy for ordinary card-play since about the last quarter of the fourteenth century. A third book was co-authored with someone else, but I’ve forgotten its title.
Unfortunately, being a professor of logic, Prof.Dummett couldn’t abide any thought of the images’ having been ‘read’ at all, let alone used for fortune-telling although on that point I had to say that in my opinion both forms of use probably originated at much the same time as a kind of tutorial-exercise, and modelled on the sort recorded played in European courts up until the late sixteenth century.
That’s probably TMI, but for some reason I thought you might like to know. How many people in 1940s Australia had even heard of tarot cards, I’ve no idea, but I shouldn’t think many would have done before the counterculture of the 1960s.
Here!
3. Anthony Edward Corvan Brown
Anthony Edward Corvan Brown was born on Christmas Day, 1875, the third child and second son born to Robert Brown and Rosa Corvan. He was named after his maternal grandfather, Anthony Edward Corvan, who at the time of his namesake’s birth was living in New Zealand and regularly being hauled in front of the local magistrate on charges of drunkenness!
Until recently, nothing was known of Anthony beyond the fact that he died sometime around the end of World War One. His death certificate therefore provided a few surprises. Firstly, that at the time of his death in 1919, he had been married…on August 28, 1915, at Holy Trinity Church, Ararat, Anthony Edward Corvan Brown, a 39 year old miner, had married 30 year old Jean Arundel Stratford. At the time of the marriage, both were living at Ararat, where Anthony was a miner and Jean worked at ‘home duties’. Parental details were given as “Robert Henry Brown, miner of Bendigo, deceased, and Rosa Constance Brown (maiden name Corvan)” and “Charles Alexander Stratford, merchant of Avon Plains, and Louisa Wilhelmina Stratford, maiden name Reither.
Jane was one of nine children born to Charles and Louisa, who had married in Victoria in 1871. Her siblings were Alfred Edward; Charles Frederick Byron; Ferdinand; Henry Mason; Laurence Conrad; Martin Harold; Mary Georgina and Powys Lorraine. Despite their rather grand names, her brothers held down to earth jobs like labourer, groom, barman and prospector.
Witnesses to the marriage were Jane’s mother Louisa Stratford and her brother Martin Harold Stratford.
Another surprise on Anthony’s death certificate was the indication of a child from the marriage- “Jenice, D”, meaning the child had predeceased her father.
Consultation of the Victorian death index revealed that Jennice Lorraine Brown had died at Ararat, aged 1, in 1918. Her parents were incorrectly given as ‘Richard’ instead of ‘Anthony’, and ‘Gene Arundel Stratford’.
Anthony Edward Corvan Brown had already contracted the disease that would kill him by the time his baby daughter died. At the time of his death in 1919, he had been suffering from carcinoma of the face and neck for two years. He died on March 6, 1919, at 102 Bank Street, South Melbourne, aged 43 years.His occupation was given as ‘miner’, and his cause of death ‘carcinoma of face and neck 2 years, general debility chronic. Last seen by Dr. R.C. Hart of South Melbourne on March 3, 1919’.
Anthony’s parents were given as ‘Robert Brown, miner, and Rosa Brown formerly Corvan’, and he was buried at Boroondara Cemetery, Kew, on March 7, 1919. His birth place was given as Bendigo, and marriage details as ‘Married Ararat, Victoria, aged 39 years, to Jean Stratford”. His issue was ‘Jenice Deceased’.
Anthony Brown’s wife Jean never remarried. The electoral rolls for 1924, 1931 and 1936 place her at the following locations:
1924: Jean Arundel Brown, Lemon Avenue, Mildura, dressmaker.
1931: Jean Arundel Brown, Lemon Avenue, Mildura, dressmaker
1936: Jean Arundel Brown, Lemon Avenue, Mildura, dressmaker.
Jean Arundel Stratford Brown died in Mildura in 1966 at the age of 83.
LordCoB
I see that I wasn’t clear. Cards are attested much earlier in the eastern Mediterranean, two types are suggested by the time of the Alf Layla wa Layla, which took its final literary form round about the 12thC. and then we find card-play in India, Persia and so on. So I should have said, “originated at much the same time as a kind of tutorial-exercise” and first adopted in that way *into Italy* from the last quarter of the fourteenth century. I suspect, but could never prove that their attested first arrival in Viterbo was not due so much to the soldiers as to members of the newly-returned papal court. (And that surely is *tmi*)
If an excommunicated Voynich Manuscript scholar of self note, can be drawn into Bob No Account’s web of sin and deceit, you gotta ask yersef in all seriousness like, “What Hath God Wrought” (23:23 BoN) bejesus?…
@ D N O’Donovan
I’m a total sceptic when it comes to “paranormal” phenomena although I’ve always been fascinated by the topic. More recently I’ve been reading quite a lot about the esoteric and occult tradition in the West from the Gnostics and Hermeticism through alchemy, Rosicrucianism, Swedenborg, Blake and so on right through to the ’60s counterculture. Gary Lachman, who was the original bassist with Blondie (as Gary Valentine) has written an excellent book on the impact of occult thinking on the ’60s, Turn Off Your Mind, all about the influence of Mme Blavatsky, CG Jung, Herman Hesse, HP Lovecraft, Aleister Crowley et al on the likes of Timothy Leary, the Beatles, the Stones, Anton LaVey, Charles Manson and many others.
Earlier this year I also purchased the recently rereleased classic ’70s album Tarot by Walter Wegmuller, a Swiss Romani artist who worked with several German musicians, some of whom also made an album with Timothy Leary. Brilliant! Wegmuller designed his own tarot cards to accompany the album but unfortunately these weren’t included in the rerelease.
This kindled an interest in tarot cards I had never had before and I purchased several packs including the Tarot of Marseilles deck, the famous Rider- Waite-Smith deck and the Crowley- Harris “Thoth” deck. Both AE Waite and Aleister Crowley were members of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and were heavily into magic. I love the designs of the cards but am not impressed by their use in cartomancy.
I read a bit about the history of the cards and found out that, as you say ,they originally developed as playing cards, and were certainly not derived from the Egyptian Book of Thoth as some esotericists maintained. Don’t get me started on all that new age nonsense, crystals, runes and the like!
I have no idea how widespread the use of tarot cards was in pre Aquarian Age Australia but I’m sure serious occultists used them – Crowley was supposed to consult them every day. There is zero evidence that Carl Webb/SM was involved with such things. I have written in the past about his possible addiction to ether – Dorothy stated in the divorce affidavit that he used it – and links between such an addiction and psychosis.
Joe Meek certainly suffered from psychosis and I thought his story and suicide were interesting enough to mention here given Xlamb’s observation about the date of SM’s death. Psychosis and/or substance abuse could explain why Carl Webb was alienated from his friends and family and why he went off the radar before his death. I speculated that the Rubaiyat might have had some special, mystical significance for him, and if you want to take it further out the “code” letters could be related to some magical formulae!
There is one mention on the Australian electoral rolls, via Ancestry, of a Dorothy Lockyer (no middle name) at 47 Roslyn Street, Kings Cross (federal electorate of Warringah), home duties, in 1963. There are no other mentions and this is the only Dorothy Lockyer without a middle name. I haven’t found any other Lockyers at this address.
All of the Dorothy Jean Robertsons can be attached to families and Pat has found a grant of citizenship for the Merimbula DJR…
A 1943 pants off moment at 47 Roslyn Street, Kings Cross!
It wasn’t Dorothy!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168981254?searchTerm=47%20roslyn%20street
There is also a 1953 Broken Hill connection for Nick! (the death of Snowy Jameson, formerly of Broken Hill).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50068161?searchTerm=47%20roslyn%20street
@Steve – No that’s what I understand irony to mean – but while the original post was certainly ironic, I find it confusing that the irony would be deliberate in that context. So perhaps your follow up suggestion that irony is lost on Aussies is on the money….
@Poppins et al,
Thanks for the warm words – I literally have Noddy Holder disease at Christmas. He was told he had 6 months to live but perhaps every time he had his £1m from royalties he perked up. I have 3 months to my State Pension.
I was tracking what was going on CM just a little bit. But I was also distracted by my research on the Isdal Woman as I had tracked someone alive whose husband attended a wedding with my suspect. I emailed her yesterday. She has one of those posh hotels that US senators visit with their wives on a remote island. But she did reply. I had also worked out her husband’s dad was ‘technically’ responsible for the Lutheran church in Stavanger in 1970. Her husband was the 50th mayor of Seattle who changed his name to Schell. He said it wasn’t a political decision “You can be sure of Schell”…
It seems post-war everybody changed their name. Carl was Charles possibly Dorothy was Jean. My own gran had used her 2nd name and my wife’s gran did the same. Everybody wanted a new start with a new ID after WW2.
Fortunately for me the Norwegian police called my suspect Valentine after a typo. It is like having a police-verifiable pseudonym I use for my suspect which I can use police files to prove.
It was useful because one person (we shall not name) had used my pseudonym to prove her evidence. Just one big hole there!
One crazy aspect is sometimes (like today) I get microscopic payments from Amazon – Seattle. My suspect was from Seattle. In 100,000 years I might get to £1m like Noddy so we have another thing in common.
LordCoB -not unlike Voynich studies, what you find in writings about tarot cards are is (a) traditionalists who base all their ideas on those presented by a single authority figure. In the case of tarot cards, though, that was an academic in post (Dummett), and then all the others who are busily crafting variations on that story. What you’ll see as the traditionalist story today (it all began with playing cards) stems from Dummett’s book published in 1980. He did not know where or when cards had first developed or what the significance had been for the oldest forms used in the west. I was asked to look into those things and did, but Prof. Dummett’s illness and retirement and illness occurred before the writing up was complete. The rights then reverted to me but I’ve only ever published a few pages from it.
Sorry, this tarot stuff is OT for everyone else, so I’ll stop.
Anyone with access to electoral rolls… does Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer appear on any of them between 1951 and 1955? Thanks!
@ Lord CoB
I think you have searched and found Geoff listed on S&M in Bute? Would we expect a Mrs. G. A. Lockyer on S&M if they were living at the same address or not necessarily? Thanks!
@Pat
No, I don’t think more than one person (head of household) would be listed on S & M.
Steve H
on November 13, 2022 at 11:15 pm:
“I traced Geoff in Bute in the Sands and McDougalls for SA up to 1963, and Nick stated that he was on an electoral roll in Perth in 1963, so we can safely say he was in Bute up until 1962 or ’63 before returning to WA.”
‘DOROTHY JEAN WEBB AND GEOFFREY ARTHUR LOCKYER…?’
@ DN O’Donovan
Funnily enough I have bought Ronald Decker and Michael Dummett’s A History of the Occult Tarot but it is still in my (huge) books to read pile. I’ve stocked up for the next pandemic which will undoubtedly be worse than the last one! Hope I haven’t wasted my money but I’m probably more interested about the occult side of things and less about the minutiae of the history of tarot cards.
As I said – or hinted at – in a previous comment although I am fascinated by the philosophical aspects of occult and hidden traditions, on an empirical level I don’t believe in any of it. On the other hand, with regards to communication with the dead, many of us have been engaging with John Sanders for a while now, and I can’t perceive any actual signs of life in that particular gentleman’s dreary transmissions.
Geoff was advertising in Oct 1952 for a boilermaker-welder ‘to contact in person or ring G. Lockyer, Henley Hotel, L8228, Saturday morning.’
Does that mean he stayed at the hotel on the weekends and at his house in Burra St., Port Wakefield during the week? Could Doff be staying at the hotel, hence why she was invisible in Bute?
If they had some sort of agreement (after her pregnancy and their stillborn) and if their relationship went back to when she separated from Carl, could that be why Carl had a ticket to Henley Beach in Dec 1948?
If Carl had been living in Cottesloe and went back to Melbourne and looked for her, maybe her friends told him about her 69 Murphy st. address and her neighbours told him she had been spending weekends and hols at the Henley Hotel in Adelaide?
https://www.domain.com.au/property-profile/47-roslyn-street-rushcutters-bay-nsw-2011
47 Roslyn Street is a beautiful old house! There are quite a few mentions on Trove indicating that it was divided into flats or let as rooms in the 1930s and 40s, with a variety of people staying there – offering nursing tuition, night caps sans pants, painting services… Old Snowy (Eric Jameson, resident prior to his death in 1953) has a few mentions in Trove – he was a witness to a mining accident back in Broken Hill and was also brought to court on assault charges against another man… The house was probably still let as rooms or operated as a share house in the 1960s before the gentrification of the Cross. The current Domain sales history goes back to May 1997 and there are photos from just over ten years ago showing it to be a large and lovely restored house.
Was Dorothy Lockyer of 67 Roslyn Street, Kings Cross/Rushcutters Bay our Doff? If the listing was closer to 1967 I’d be more convinced as lots of people went onto the electoral roll in order to vote in the 1967 referendum, which gave the Commonwealth Government powers to include Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the census and provide Commonwealth programs and support.
https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/1967-referendum
This could provide a context for someone slipping on and off the electoral roll… In the meantime we have a Sydney share house and a Dorothy to ponder…
(The Kings Cross area could align with Colleen Fitzpatrick’s “community of LBQTI people” comment).
@ Pat – if Dorothy more time in Adelaide than Bute I’d expect her to use an Adelaide divorce lawyer. On the other hand Bute does sound very quiet! And you’ve come up with a Henley Beach connection…!
@ David – take inspiration from Keith Richards as well as Noddy Holder! Good to see you back in the game!
@ Lord CoB
Thanks, I only ask because there’s a Mrs. G. Lockyer from 1959-1969 at 2 different addresses in the Unley area (Fairford St and Thomas St), but I suppose she could be Mrs. G. Lockyer from the Caledonian Society mentioned on Trove around 1952-53.
Pat O’ Rato: DJR @ 14 Eltham Ave. Darling Point 60s 70s….Sao precisos dois para dancar o Maxixe!
One wonders speculatively whether as a poetry fan Carl Webb was acquainted with the work of the Melbourne boy poet Gavin Greenlees, or even the boy wonder himself.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247902306?searchTerm=%22gavin%20greenlees%22
Greenlees later moved to Sydney and, although he was gay, became the lover of Rosaleen Norton, the “Witch of Kings Cross”. He was yet another character who suffered from drug addiction and mental illness.
“From 1955 onwards, Greenlees had many prolonged admissions to psychiatric hospitals in Sydney suffering from hallucinations and paranoia, possibly made worse by his regular use of drugs including amphetamines and LSD.” (Wikipedia)
There is a photo of the pair here:
https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-why-rosaleen-norton-the-witch-of-kings-cross-was-a-groundbreaking-bohemian-154184
“Eventually, she [Norton] based herself in Kings Cross. There, she was free to explore and develop her beliefs and practices. In the late 1940s, it was where she met one of her companions in life and magic, the poet Gavin Greenlees (1930-1983).
Norton and Greenlees practised several strands of magic, including trance magic, sex magic, and ceremonies combining and improvising elements from several traditions.”
“Norton retired from public view during the 1970s, living in a basement flat in Roslyn Garden, with her sister, Cecily Boothman (1905-1991), close by in the same apartment block…
She and Boothman were visited by Greenlees on his days of temporary release from the Alma Mater Nursing Home, Kensington, where he had been sectioned after a lengthy stay at Callan Park Mental Hospital at the age of 25.”
According to Wikipedia, Greenlees and Norton’s relationship broke up “as he was admitted to Callan Park Hospital with schizophrenia. She would continue to visit and support him, and in 1964 he was let off on temporary release, but suffered a schizophrenic attack and attempted to kill Norton with a knife before being re-admitted. He would only be discharged permanently in 1983, approximately four years after her death.”
1960s Kings Cross featuring Rosaleen Norton:
https://youtu.be/_3EbZFy4XJM?si=AC-f26eQKCODAZqM
Some rather naughty pics of Norton and Greenlees in this:
https://youtu.be/YFGgDQhS5ms?si=nMWOOnqyd3tM2e-K
Orificial tinglings indeed!
Norton had a few exhibitions at Pakie’s in the 1940s. She might even have met Jessica Harkness!
Lord CoB
“Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto,”
@Jo The Dorothy Lockyer from Kings Cross may be that Dorothy Joan Lockyer that I months back purchased a copy of her marriage record. A nurse and younger listing the fathers’ names and occupations.
Pat, I think you are onto something here. Well spotted.
D. O’D: punctuation and spelling fail us at times, especially when it comes to Latin
quotes. Yet we’re only human? aren’t we? … well most of us but, not for long it seems!
….not suggesting there were any in your last gem; I wouldn’t know!
@ Jo and Lord CoB,
Thanks for the links to this fascinating historical journey! 50 shades of E. Grey indeed!
@Pat
Geoff Lockyer wasn’t in SA when SM died.
Jo
on November 8, 2022 at 9:26 pm:
“He was nowhere near Adelaide in November 1948 as he was applying for his missing army discharge certificate. He signed a statutory declaration on 27 *November in Perenjori (350km north of Perth), his accompanying letter was dated 9 December 1948. (All from Geoffrey Lockyer’s NAA War Service file W12384).”
* “Sorry, Statutory Declaration signed by Geoffrey Lockyer at Perenjori, indicating that his army discharge papers had been lost (accidentally burnt with other papers) on 22 November 1948 (not 27th). ”
I posted the ad you quoted on the same day as Jo’s original comment. Maybe Doff did stay in Henley Beach later on but sadly nowt to do with Carl’s rail ticket, unless Geoff and Doff met up for dirty weekends in Adelaide before Geoff moved to SA, which seems unlikely.
Ive not been on here for a while nor have I updated myself of the most recent posts. My only contribution is to say that whatever the colonel has been saying is complete bullshit.
Just in case some of you think I’m banging on about Carl Webb’s possible psychosis for no good reason other than morbid fascination with said topic, let me remind you of some of the things Doff said about their marriage in her detailed and easily falsifiable (if the petition was challenged) affidavit.
“Since the said marriage the respondent has always been of a moody disposition.”
“..without any apparent cause he would completely ignore people and quite often be rude.”
“One night in the year 1945 when he was losing [at cards] he got his long bladed carving knife and threatened a guest who had won money from him.”
“He has written many poems, most of them on the subject of death, which he claims to be his greatest desire.”
“[He] usually went to bet at 7pm, often night after night.”
“If I asked him anything concerning the conduct of the flat, he would fly into a rage and abuse me, calling me a dirty rotten bitch.”
“I went to the side window, and struck a match to wake him up. He accused me of trying to set the curtains on fire. He finally came to the door and struck me.”
“The following afternoon I entered the flat to change my clothes. He came into my room and struck me again.”
“I told him I would call the police if he didn’t stop abusing me. With that he tried to strike me with a kitchen fork.”
“[I] ran for my life out of the front door.. Just as I cleared the doorstep he kicked me so hard that my spine was bruised for some time.” (The police were called and the neighbours witnessed this incident)
“I returned to get some clothes and found Respondent in the flat. He had broken most of the kitchen crockery and glasses…” (This was when he took the phenobarbital tablets)
“As soon he was about again, he told me I was a fool to help him get better. From then on he became more violent, and one night entered my room, when I was in bed and stood over me threateningly. Next night he tried to throw me out of the flat by force.”
“In about the month of June 1946 Respondent again abused me and threatened to take my life.” (Police called again)
“Again in about July 1946 I called in Constable Carter of St Kilda Road Police, after being chased out the flat and struck as I reached the front porch.”
“[He] said “You will get nothing from me, ever. Just get out the flat while you’ve got your life to do so.””
Sure sounds psychotic to me!
@ Lord CoB
Fair enought, BUT maybe Geoff had already been visiting Adelaide and Port Adelaide to talk business with Douglas Harold Bampton and his wife Phyllis Nora, the future directors of Hydraulic Equipment Co. in Bute, from whom he bought the business around 1957, according to their daughter’s account kindly provided by RichardD.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129919762?searchTerm=%22p.%20n.%20and%20d.%20h.%20bampton%22#
According to Trove’s notices, Doug Bampton was a commercial traveller of Alexander St, Largs Bay in 1947.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/35988379?searchTerm=%22douglas%20bampton%22#
@Lord COB
If as you say Carl was a psycho it seems you/Dorothy have modeled him on Norman Bates. One minute he’s caring for his dying mother the next minute he is running amok in Bromby St. There was no evidence of the neighbors calling the police on him – which would have been in-keeping with a psycho Carl. That would have been the strongest evidence that Mrs X at number 10 called the police. The landlord didn’t seem to mind him removing locks – I find that a bridge too far in her evidence.
Her dad sat in the car watching the house. It seems a little strange he didn’t accompany his daughter. He was a runway builder/gardener so a physical worker not an electrical engineer for whom picking up a pen was the heaviest object he had to lift all day. Why would he have been afraid of Carl? If he was he would have been able to summon his roadgang chums to beat the crap out of Carl. Yet he allowed his daughter to get beat up every day.
Plus Carl was in bed at 7pm. So why did he sit in the car late at night?
Carl’s frustration with Dorothy may have been 1) She wasn’t working after the 1st 18 months and then spending a lot of money on going to the cinema with her chums during/after a war when rationing was in force. Most young women were making bombs etc in factories during the war. 2). She wasn’t a homemaker – she wasn’t cooking his meals or having his children etc. 3). She wasn’t helping him look after his sick mother. So he was a worker and a carer. When his mother died only Carl sat there all night. This may have been a factor in his early nights that he had a late night shift as a carer for his mother.
That might be a reflection of his anger that she didn’t care about ‘his’ wellbeing and was self-engrossed in her own poor health. He may have been splashing the ether because he couldn’t get enough sleep and had underlying health issues.
@ Jo,
When Dorothy started the divorce proceedings in June 1951, she probably didn’t have any permanent address in Bute because Geoff only took up residence ‘in the only available house’ in Port Wakefield in Oct 1951.
If Dorothy was living in Port Wakefield as a recluse, how could she manage on weekends without Geoff, not to mention that she was pregnant in 1951 and gave birth to a stillborn in December 1951.
I really can’t see her living full time indoors in Port Wakefield, while Geoff was throwing lighted crackers on 1 January 1952 at a hotel in Adelaide, just after their baby had been buried.
It would make more sense that she had been staying at the hotel during her late pregancy; her stillborn baby was buried in Adelaide, not Bute.
There’s no mention of her in Bute, despite Geoff being sucha a character!
Sorry, Geoff was throwing lighted crackers on 1 Jan 1952, just after their marriage on 22 Dec!
@ Pat and Lord CoB – I actually thought that Geoff’s mishap with the discharge papers was a bit dodgy. He signed a Statutory Declaration on 22 November 1948 and the accompanying letter was sent in the first week of December, both from Perrenjori, in WA.
@ Pat – it does sound as though Dorothy was in Adelaide in 1951!
@ Curio – please could you refresh us on the Charles Stanford/ Dorothy Jean Lockyer marriage. I actually purchased this certificate and can find my receipt frim NSW BDM no download! As you say, it could help to work out if this is Kings Cross Dorothy…
@David Morgan
Perhaps you should learn the difference between psychotic and psychopathic. Psychosis is a mental illness that is only occasionally associated with violence although it can be – eg schizophrenia, bipolar etc. I have suffered with psychotic depression in the past and the only person I harmed was myself. Carl though appears to have been very violent and the police were called on several occasions. However, your flippant Norman Bates reference is way off the mark.
You are totally wrong about Doff’s father. In the affidavit she states: “I had to call my father at 1am to come to my aid as the respondent was ill treating me. He came in and the respondent promised not to ill treat me again. My father remained outside the flat until 3.30 am.” Also before John Comber returned from Darwin “My mother called on him, but he refused to talk to her.”
You are totally wrong about Carl caring for his dying mother: “For several weeks shortly after our marriage I nursed the Respondent’s mother. This resulted in me being run down in health”‘
As for the locks Carl removed them on the bathroom door and Doff’s bedroom door so that she had to place “a couch across the inside of my door” to stop him gaining access to her, and after one night of this she found accommodation in a hotel. We don’t know how long the locks were off the doors, it might only have been a day or two. When Doff went back to get some clothes that is when she found Carl “lying in a wet bed, staring into space.” After that she nursed him for a week “hand feeding him”.
Please read the document carefully before you make such asinine remarks.
You are victim blaming full stop in your excuses for Carl’s behaviour as documented by Doff. Going to the cinema with her “chums” justifies striking, kicking and threatening to kill her does it? As for the fact that she kept going back to him that is a common response to domestic abuse as in many ways the victim may be dependent on the perpetrator and may still have feelings of attachment to them.
As for the police: “Outside the flat Constable Carter advised me to see about having him bound over to keep the peace, and agreed with me he could be dangerous.” One assumes the police in Victoria kept a record of all such incidents.
But if you don’t believe her story a priori then there ain’t much I can say to convince you otherwise. However your male chauvinism shows through in every word of your comment.
Anyway, glad to know you are ok mate!
I notice that Jo’s 47 Roslyn Street is just around the corner from Roslyn Gardens where Rosaleen Norton ended up in later life.
There is a good film about Norton on YouTube – ‘The Witch of Kings Cross’ – concentrating on her art work. Fascinating stuff. Apparently she lost her virginity at Pakie’s! In the film there is a quite a bit about the gay/lesbian community in Kings Cross.
https://youtu.be/RKLDNpjxUps?si=dbNmnnVQr8LAzZbs
The person who uploaded it is some nutter calling himself Resist Global Communism, who is obsessed with the “occult” motivations behind world domination by the dark forces etc etc, but he can’t have watched the film as it is a very sympathetic portrait of Norton and counters a lot of the sensationalism.
See also the excellent full documentary from 1964 about Kings Cross ‘The Glittering Mile’ from which the clip of Rosaleen Norton I linked yesterday comes. Note the Les Girls Review featuring drag queens and especially the famous “Carlotta”!
https://youtu.be/-poHeQ5p0_k?si=agSUffXmQo0jRHMI
As for John Sanders’ 14 Eltham Ave, Darling Point – what IS the point? It’s Etham anyway, not Eltham. It’s just up the way from Mona Road where I stayed for a few weeks in 1983. I also used to use Roslyn Street as a shortcut up to the strip in Kings Cross. If I had had a dollar for every time I was asked “wanna good time luv” I’d have been fine dining rather than eating a meat pie in a corner deli! One drunken night my Welsh friend Colin and I climbed a tree in Rushcutter’s Bay Park on the way back to the doss house. Happy days.
Dorothy Jean Roberts at 14 Etham Avenue:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/231301368?searchTerm=%2214%20etham%20avenue%22
@Pat
Steve H
on November 13, 2022 at 11:15 pm:
“The first record of Geoff in SA is, I believe an October newspaper piece about him moving into a property in Port Wakefield in 1951. His house in South Bute was taking shape in June 1953. We know he was in Perenjori, WA, in December 1948 (ie after the SM body was found) through a letter in his NAA file.
So where did he meet Doff, if indeed it was really her? Was Carl really ever in Cottesloe, or is that just what the family believed?…Was Doff ever in WA herself, or did she meet Geoff in SA? Was the stillborn baby in December 1951, before the marriage, hers? [it was] She was in Bute in 1951 where her affidavit was filed in June.
Pat is right to point out that Geoff Lockyer’s wife is invisible in Bute. Apart from her divorce papers, the marriage record and the hospital admission there doesn’t seem any trace of her.”
Obviously we can add the Lockyers’ divorce in 1955 to that list.
Also:
Curio
on December 16, 2022 at 12:45 pm said:
@John Sanders The Mrs G. Lockyer from your post Trove link in 1952 advertising South Australian Scottish Association piping and teaching dancing is for Olive Grace Allen married to George Edward Lockyer 1935 (1941 Electoral Roll record and family trees). There is no information about any cousin relationship to Geoffrey A Lockyer.”
Let’s not forget Richard D’s remark that Geoff’s new wife Mary told her nephew “that he [Geoff] had a thing for prostitutes even up to his dying days.” Perhaps he used to visit the Cross if he ever visited Sydney!
@ Curio
Does your copy of the 1964 Dorothy Joan Lockyer/ John Charles Stanford marriage certificate provide an address for Dorothy? Or John… I can’t get a handle on them via a quick forage on the electoral rolls & can’t even find them as a married Stanford couple…
On 30th Nov. & 1st December, SM landmark dates overlooked by Webb FB/CM affiliate sites alike, wreaths were laid on a particilar unmarked grave at St. Mary’s Cemetery NSW, marking 75 years since events of 1948. As a consequence I made contact with graves administration and received a reply in which they re affirmed that they did not have a burial date or full name connected to plot 16 other than Robertson name of which was on record as likely being an unused allocation only. Follow-up enquiries in respect of the flowers and also as the initial 28th April 2000 FAG’s date of burial are in progress.
@ Curio
I hadn’t actually downloaded the certificate for the 1964 Stanford/Lockyer marriage. Their addresses are given as Walgett and Walcha, in rural NSW, however they married in Sydney at St Barnabas’ Church in Fairfield. As you’ve mentioned 21 year old Dorothy Joan Lockyer was a nurse. It’s possible that she was the 1963 Dorothy (no middle name) Lockyer living at 67 Rosyln Street in Kings Cross, working as a nurse, at nearby St Vincent’s or St Luke’s for instance.
Probably known already but, I came across a Dorothy Robertson at Matraville, Randwick City, NSW DOB:? Died: 13 April 1990.
@ Johnno – wreaths or digital flowers on “Find a Grave”? I believe that the latter may have been added by Cipher Sirens…
Clive: John Sanders once mentioned that Matraville was a female penitentiary?
https://ciphermysteries.com/misc-stuff#comment-425275
There was a State Reformatory at Long Bay, Matraville opened in 1909 and, shut by 1969? Possibly this DR was a former inmate?
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?9
@ Clive
If this is the same one, her parents are listed as being Charles and Elsie Ravenscroft.
Nick Pelling: I can’t recall. Check with Lord CoB. If there is one, he would most likely have been there in his travels to Sydney during the eighties. Speaking of female penitentiaries, there was apparently one at Geneva IL. up until 1978 and a certain Margaret Seton Prosser worked there, died there was cremated there in 2007 and whose remains were forwarded to St. Mary’s cemetery 2015. Seems that in 1954 and again in 1960 she, or a substitute may have visited Wellington NZ and stayed with a relative J. Hordurgh in Ocean Road Paraparaum Rd., from memory.
Jo: not likely to have been a CM siren. Not on 30th November; know what I mean? and to what purpose, bearing in mind the SM 75th anniversary significance..unless!
…Well spotted Nick Pelling; The female penitentiary at Matraville opened in 1909 and appears that it was part of the later much larger Long Bay bay complex which is still operating as an all male facility. Plenty of information available if you need confirmation on line.
What are the addresses for John Comber Robertson in 1977 according to the electoral rolls?
Ancentry’s partial information shows his name 3 times in 1977 – Melbourne Ports, Thomastown and Burke. Were these electoral divistions (or districts) in the same area? Do they show the same address?
Thanks!
Etham Avenue, Darling Point has an interesting history for the concept of a Black Widow Dorothy
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248574197?searchTerm=%22etham%20avenue%22%2C%20%22roberts%22
Mrs Bishop?
https://mhnsw.au/guides/gaol-inmates-and-prisoners-guide
@Nickpelling – prison records would be a great place to look for some who had disappeared from everyday records! There’s a 70 year rule for access in Australia.
Slightly off topic but does anyone here know of good guides or starting points for researching a British prisoner? I am keen one day to research the events leading to the death of my uncle and namesake, Joe, who died in Birmingham jail. The family story is quite a colourful one that involves jumping ship from the (merchant?) navy during the Malayan Emergency to assist a (communist?) Chinese village, turning up in Singapore in a very incoherent state six months later… Apparently he sustained kidney damage during a fight with a shore patrol which led to death from kidney necrosis back in England… it could all be a tall story! I have a grave card (unmarked grave), a copy of the death certificate (kidney necrosis) and a copy of Nicholas Montserrat’s “The Cruel Sea” given to my dad as a Christmas present, probably when he too joined the merchant navy! My dad spent much of his first trip stuck in the Suez Canal zone – Nasser had nationalised the canal & Israel had invaded the Gaza Strip!…
Clive: sorry mate, your women’s pen. post had not appeared when I answered NP. The wheels of information move pretty slowly here these days and it’s frustrating.
….In re the C/O Mrs. J. Hordurgh relative of Margaret Prosser, the surname is blurred, as is the street number that looks like 53 or 35, near cnr. of Kapiti Rd.
Any number of Dorothy Robos’ arriving in NZ but no Jean joiners and no 1920 births. We do have a lone Miss (adult) D. J. Lockyer arriving Auckland 1960 but lacking further details, apart from the spd ‘British’ which means F. Hall.
Pat: whist you’re back over at FB, DA’s enabler, Mitch Whalmi may be interested in G. A. Lockyer’s ad from 5 Feb. ’53 for a single, sober, iron worker, drill machst. and oxy-acet. welder for Hydro. Equip. c/o A. Smith & Co. 112 Flinders St. Adelaide mit accom. Call between 3-11 [sic] a.m. Saturday…This in order to assess merits of your theory on DJR’s pre Bute residency status ie., 23 Oct. ’52 Henley Hotel Advert. Ad. (courtesy Steve H. decd. @Lockyer thread 8/11/22).
@Lord CoB,
The fact she left her sick cat with Carl and went on holiday tells me everything about Dorothy. She knew he had to go to work in the drill factory and they worked long shifts in those days. I judge everyone by how they look after their dying pet/relatives.
She had also fallen out with her sister and didn’t attend her wedding or have any contact with her nieces and nephews – why was that? Why didn’t she send Christmas presents to her sister’s children? She married Lockyer who they say had a Rolls Royce and built a brand new home for her but she couldn’t afford a birthday card with a £1 or $1 in it for her young relatives. That takes a special selfish nastiness. We know this because her relatives have no memory of her – not even a birthday card or photograph.
She may have lived in some poor hovel in her dying days but that was because she had disconnected from her family. She might have inherited money from her dad if she was a decent caring human being and not abusive as Lockyer said.
Derek Abbott kindly replied to me thus:
“The coroner is indeed supposed to make his final determination imminently. However, the office has a 2-year backlog of cases because of Covid. So he’s extremely busy. Cross fingers we’ll get the final outcome soon….though realistically there may be delays. That’s the reality”
He also replied to Pat that the family member told him that Doff died in the late ’90s.
According to RichardD, Geoff also had a plane!
There’s a paragraph in the book RichardD has mentioned “From Stumps to Stubble: a History of the District of Bute – South Australia (Incorporating the Original Councils of Kulpara and Nimes) by Roslyn M. Paterson; Eyvonne L. Price”
‘From the late 1950s and early 1960s the Council plant was in need of major upgrading, and councillors decided instead that a local contractor, Mr. G. A. Lockyer (later Way & Co.) would be engaged to load and cart road material to the job site. This situation continued until 1968 when Council commenced budgetting separately to replace and build up a balance for purchasing machinery.’
I haven’t given it a thorough search on Trove, but I couldn’t find Way & Co.
RichardD has mentioned Geoff’s road building business but I have interpreted it as a later business in Western Australia. This paragraph reveals that he had already been building roads as a ‘local contractor’.
You can read the book on Internet Archive’s website (free account).
As far as divorces based on habitual cruelty go, I suppose the term could have been used loosely for a number of different situations.
Maybe Geoff gave Doff a considerable amount of money to speed things up. She was being treated as a private patient at Wallaroo Hospital; I assume Geoff was paying since her occupation was ‘home duties’.
If desertion or proven adultery were the other options, habitual cruelty would seem to be the easy way out, especially if Doff did not intend to remain in the area.
As for judging people’s character… I can think of a dozen different interpretations of what is written in Doff’s divorce affidavit. As interesting as it is to draw conclusions from this, it’s highly speculative and probably unfair. Marriages are a very complex business. No one is a complete saint or sinner.
@ Jo
I have friends living in Birmingham and Sutton Coldfied. If you need anything from there, drop me an email. What are your uncle’s DOB and DOD? Fascinating history!
@Jo 20th March 2023 I bought it: bride birth 1 8 1942 residence Hill Street, Walcha and groom Wee Waa Street, Walgett
@ David – in reality we know so very little of her!
@John Sanders
If you want to tell Mitch Whalmi summat I suggest you address your comments to Curio. I never visited or even went through Matraville cos for some reason I can’t remember I never managed to get down to La Perouse. A bit naughty of me really! My only experience of women’s prisons is from watching mid ’70s ITV
series Within These Walls starring Googie Withers and your Australian copy Prisoner (Cell Block H). That bloke Steve H decd you quoted sounded like a very intelligent fella!
@David Morgan
If you are relying on Geoff Lockyer for your hatred of Doff then you are truly lost. The man who had a fling with a barmaid whilst married to his first wife, who obtained a divorce because of his adultery. The man who was charged with breaking and entering in Kalgoorlie. The man who was charged during his brief army service for being drunk in control of a motorcycle and stealing army property. The man who was fined for throwing fireworks off a balcony with his mate at New Year in 1952 – why wasn’t he with Doff who shortly before had a stillborn child?
Even John Sanders (Nov 19 2022) opined: “All so sad and all but, who was aware that barely two weeks later [after the stillbirth] Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer was himself seeing in the new year in rather fine style with his buddy Allan Clarke at the Centralian Hotel, Henley Beach [not Henley Beach, as JS corrected himself later]. One might wonder how poor Dorothy herself was faring. Very doubtful that she had anything to celebrate in my opinion.”
The man (“grazier”?) who was on 21st August 1953 fined for betting at the Henley Hotel, Henley Beach. The man who visited prostitutes to his “dying day”.
The man who, as Richard D was told by his third wife’s nephew, “had a new Rolls Royce and was a heavy smoker. He had an oxygen tank in the boot of his Rolls piped to his oxygen mask. He had his own plane that flew him and explosives to various construction sites. When he crashed his Rolls he had it sent to England to be repaired. While he was waiting he bought a new one for cash and he was on the news handing over the cash.” Talk about Flash Harry!
You are making so many assumptions in your comments that I wouldn’t know where to begin (“built a brand new home for her” – I suppose he would have preferred living in a humpy). The fact that you didn’t apologise for the errors in your earlier comment is appalling. You completely misrepresented what Doff said in her affidavit to suit your misogynist agenda. Pathetic. PLEASE do some research before you gob off!
“…she couldn’t afford a birthday card with a £1 or $1 in it for her young relatives. That takes a special selfish nastiness.” I have NEVER read such a ridiculous comment and I have waded through many posts by the likes of JS, Bowes, Minstrel Janet, Katie Dee and so on.
Whatever happened to Tamara Bunke aka Tania the Guerrillera? Like JS she made regular contributions here from beyond the grave, but unfortunately it is Sanders who seems to be the earthbound spirit still stuck in Purgatory in a vain attempt to atone for his sins.
@All
A “little bird” told me about a Dorothy Jean living in the Sydney suburb of Barranugli. Hope you lot don’t find her first!
Happy b’day to me. Well, no-one else has said it!
Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc.
Maybe it’s worth taking a look at Carl’s potential jobs after Red Point?
https://www.htpaa.org.au/hand-tools/australian-tools-makers/australian-makers/19-australian-makers
@ Lord CoB,
Does late 90s sound like 1997-1999? If I’m going to look for all Dorothys and Jeans regardless of their last names I really need a narrower window of time. Not to mention that if it took some time between her death and burial/cremation, Jan 2000 is also a possibility.
Glad to know Prof. Derek Abbott is replying to our questions.
Speaking of Professors, I have emailed Prof. Ruth Balint about Gerald Feltus’ Somerton Man file, but she hasn’t replied. I have posted on the FB group page in hope that Prof. Abbott would contact her, but he doesn’t seem to be interested.
I have also written a letter (yes, the old stuff) to retired Major Crime Detective Gerald Feltus (PO Box mentioned in his book), but it will take time until it arrives in Australia. Anyway, I doubt he still has the PO Box, but I have enjoyed writing the letter.
@ Lord CoB
Happy Birthday! 🎉
Thanks for the Barranugli tip, I’ll give it a go after popping to the shops. No Trove today and tomorrow, maintenance!
@Lord CoB I am a Webb and stated on CM before it was announced he was family, ha ha. I am related to The Somerset Man and not SM. My nephew is a friended on FB and can be looked at as a blond contemporary version of Charles.
I met met Jo Thomson 35 years ago then handed her a copy of the famous book and mentioned I am a Webb. Her reaction was to yell for Robin to come meet me.
Happy Birthday Lord CoB.
Hell ! I had to trample through the Happy Valley and travel through the Eye of the Storm to reach Barranugli! What a load of Voss!!
@ Lord CoB
I think I’ve spotted her in Sarsaparilla. Great tip! Are you already drunk or is it too early for you?
🥂
@Lord Cob,
There is no criminal record for Carl. If he had been arrested for violent behaviour there would be a record. Not even a speeding ticket.
I think Lady Dorothy of Pargiter was not happy slumming it in Bromby st.
Sands & Mac lists a Mrs. D. Robertson living at 97, Payneham Rd, St. Peters, Adelaide in 1952. No sign of her from 1948 to 1959.
Ha ha, Doreen Frocks in 1953!
But, interestingly, Dooreen (not Doreen) Frocks was no more in 1956… At the same address was Glenelg Dry Cleaners.
Maybe Doff had a Frock Shop in Adelaide, ha ha.
C. S. Lafferty, Mrs. A. E. Odgers and R. J. Webber had business (or were lodgers) at the same address between 1950 and 1955.
It looks like C. S. Lafferty was the owner or landlord.
Could Dooreen be a nickname for Dorohty Jean? Ha ha, that would be funny!
Gawd COBber,
65 and still a year to wait for any chance of a pension or bus pass. My how some mothers do ‘Ave ‘Em. Many happy returns anyhow Bob!
No notable birthdays but, Human Rights Day (wouldn’t know it), and in 2016? Bob Dylan’s long overdue Nobel Prize for Literature.
JS: No problem, I just wonder how many other Dorothy Robertson’s there are out there in graveyards?
Doing a bit of Sunday revisitation of the original German Webers in rural S.A. and the 1922 case of Charles Weber v Nat. Electricity Board on NAA, both of which I’d mentioned to rave reviews. What I had bypassed is the interesting Carl Weber and partner on NAA who, in the late thirties had the notion to register one of their own clever AlphameticS puzzle games, which some one, for some particular reason has, at thrir own expence had the full file along with example strategies digitised. While you’re at it may as well check JCR’s WW2 detsiled civil construction contract file as well.
@David Morgan Someone from the bakery was done for speeding in the delivery vehicle (I thought it was Charles). The father was fined for under standard size buns.
Clive: I wouldn’t be arguing with estimates north of a thousand.
Curio: I’m sure they had enough dough to pay the fine?
Clive: I seem to recall that Dick Weber beat the rap on a technicality. Something about one of the six light loaves not having correct provinance for prosecution. Not certain though, it was a fair while ago when the Carl Webb was fresh and Doff was not part of the story. Now she is the story and nothing else counts!
@Sandra van Tongeren Did you get any further with the code being names? The copy I gave to Jo Thomson was found at a book fair inside a volume of Lloyd A. Meeker’s (MLlABO code) written down sermons published first in the early 1980s (Emissaries of the Divine Light)?
@Curio
Roy in the van.
Either Carl was the mafia boss or a saint. Normally people aren’t usually that good. I’m suspicious he didn’t do anything naughty like Leo or his dad. Potentially the only crime was taking clothes from houses perhaps when he was homeless like the Keane clothes. No evidence of drunken behaviour.
The Keane’s were remembering John Russell Keane just 3 days before the death on the beach. Perhaps they nipped to the pub and Carl broke in.
Otherwise if they saw him 3 days before why didn’t they phone in to the police?
There was a Doreen Mary McDonald of Payneham Rd, St. Peters.
Lots of notices about divorce proceedings from her husbnd William John Joseph McDonald of Clarence Park, on the grounds of adultery with John Leslie of Payneham Rd. William John Joseph had also commited adultery.
Maybe she was the owner of “Dooreen Frocks”. The interesting thing is that her solicitor was Mr. L. T. Gun, same as Dorothy’s!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131191590?searchTerm=%22payneham%20road%22%20%22st%20peters%22%20%22doreen%20mary%22#
Anyway, I haven’t found any other mention of a Mrs. D. Robertson living at 97 Payneham Rd, St Peters. I’ve notice a lot of Voluntrove’s activity!
Pat: back then Mr L. T. Gun was a busy divorce lawyer, with many clients!
On the other hand, Mrs. Doreen McDonald (nee Clancy) was a music teacher, so maybe Dooreen Frocks was not her business.
Her husband was a former police counstable who took over the Sevenhill Hotel. They had 3 daughters.
John Leslie of Payneham Rd, St Peters
The timing is striking. The business started in 1951 and ended in 1956, and Mrs. D. Robertson is listed at the same address in 1952.
Thanks for the b’day greetings. Just in case you were worried I was on my lonesome all day I went up to my aunt’s in the arvo – she was 96 earlier in the week and is healthier and fitter than me! She goes all round Bristol with her FREE bus pass which I have to wait one more year for, so I had to fork out £2 to get there. Being a cheapskate I walked home in a gale.
Sorry about the Barranugli (Barren ugly) tip. Couldn’t resist it just to see how long it would take you lot to twig. Maybe Doff worked at the Brighta Bicycle Lamps factory there? Maybe not. Anyway, if you haven’t read Riders in the Chariot and the Solid Mandala you must have lost your marbles (and that’s a sly ref to the title of the latter novel). When it comes to sheer nastiness and a talent for eviscerating other human beings I’m just a novice sitting at the master’s feet. One of his (best) novels wasn’t called The Vivisector for nothing, although the main character in that book is a Hurtle (Duffield) and not a Hurwood.
Blogger and Worthing, Sussex resident Rob Tomlinson writes: “White’s biographer, David Marr…is clear that White was always searching for “wholeness”. “He always saw himself as a shattered personality – not one man but a cast of characters…” Cast of characters? Remind you of anyone?
@Curio
Looks like you were drinking more than me yesterday and it was my b’day! Don’t know nowt about any Somerset Man, being a Gloucestershire Man myself.
Scuse I, but if ‘ee doan mine I askin, which part of th’ county be thee Gramfer and Grammer vrom?
Don’t bring the dreaded Calypso back down on our heads again mate!
@Pat
DA’s informant seems to have been very vague on the details of Doff’s demise so I doubt we’ll get anything clearer than late ’90s.
@LordCoB … belated birthday wishes, glad you had a lovely day with your aunt, she sounds absolutely marvelous. Just did my first Google Street view of Bristol and lo and behold the first thing I saw was a man giving the Google Earth van the finger …. err, you don’t have a beard, do you, corner Swan and Quay? Haha!
I always wanted to ride on one of those double decker buses …… good on ya, cheers.
@DavidMorgan, the Isdal Woman is a case that’s fascinated me too – you certainly do some excellent research, amazing stuff. The Wembley Point Woman is another interesting one … maybe Colleen could help solve that one with familial DNA.
Bit behind with reading here, will catch up ….
Pat: between ’49 and ’59 there are Sands & Mc. listings for five D. J. Robertsons in Adelaide, none going back to ’46? but, there is record in ’45 of a Dora Jean getting a well earned divorce from Charles Nicholas Robertson. You can be assured that she stopped using the Mrs. Robertson title thence forth.
Lord Jim: when I was in NSW & Qld., twice during 2022, I travelled everywhere by bus and never bought a ticket even though I made half hearted attempts to pay the fare. Reason being there is no on board ticket dispensing these days and the unconcerned foreign bus drivers aren’t likely to kick you off. Don’t know if they still use money in Bristol but suggest you try it on, never know your luck in a big city.
@Poppins,
Thanks again. I contacted Colleen the other week and suggested she ask the American Woman “Valentine’s” niece Vicki…I suppose I have to call her Vicki Valentine (not her real name). Only this year I located her in Las Vegas and thought it was an ideal opportunity for Colleen to steal her mtDNA ..or ask politely.
I noticed someone in Texas with the name of a female wrestler started the familysearch tree but got her mother’s name wrong as Hazel Williams – very strange. I sent her the correct tree by the new chat system.
I also wanted to get the story of Mariann Thunestvedt mentioned in Norway. The new Isdal Woman docudrama next year ‘may’ mention her. I was supposed to be involved. I had some success getting it covered in Strasbourg but so far no further research by other media or Kripos.
I have my PET scan tomorrow so I will be radioactive and have to avoid pregnant women and my cat. I wonder if I will glow in the dark.
@Lord CoB I have a living second witness: I worked for the nephew of Prosper Thompson, son of the deaf soldier Carl Thompson Carl Thompson Jr., and Jo and Robin were visiting him when I found them at a book fair. These facts would be accepted by any Australian court judge.
@Poppins
Not me! I wouldn’t even consider such a vulgar American gesture. We older Brits still use the good old two finger V-sign variant. No beard either – too damn itchy. Don’t know a Swan (Street?) though so I can’t find your gentleman. We’re mostly a common lot in Bristol – best have a wander on Google Street Maps in posh Clifton or head down the road to the Georgian splendours of Bath.
When I was hitch hiking in Oz I was told not to use the thumb to ask for a ride as it was considered very rude, so I used to stick out my index finger. Maybe you Aussies were taking me for a ride? As for the double decker buses I never go upstairs cos that’s where the yobbos hang out. I did like the double deck trains in Sydney – when I lived in Kirribilli I used to go over the Harbour Bridge on one most days.
@John Sanders
We can still use money unfortunately. I would have thought you travelled round Qld & NSW in the back of a hearse though, only coming out at night! Isn’t blood your favourite tipple?
@Curio
Sorry mate, you’ve completely lost me now.
@Poppins
The Wembley Point Woman is a mystery. Never heard of it. That painting should be a huge clue. I’m not going down that rabbit hole. Did you watch Georgia Marie’s video on YouTube?
https://youtu.be/sN1SZudl22Q?si=Gvg-CqnjeGaeAls5
A couple of people in the comments section mentioned Yoruba religion (Orishas) and Santeria in connection with the painting her clothing (mostly black) and jewellery (inc cowrie ring).
On the Locate International site that she linked I noticed a Clifton Suspension Bridge Man from May 1996. The chap was found on the bank of the River Avon in Bristol with:
1)A cardboard sign with a handwritten message saying ‘Sleeping rough, thank you’
2)A red penny whistle
3)A copy of Thomas More’s ‘Utopia’, a satire dating to the early 16th Century – it was missing an outer cover and had the words ‘West Glamorgan County Council’ on the first page
4)A Holy Bible
5)A paperback copy of ‘The Greatest Batman Stories’
6)A Great Britain A-Z map and a Eurohike Adventure guide
7)Silk Cut cigarettes and a blank Barclays giro slip
8)A passport photo of himself as a younger man
The Suspension Bridge used to be known as one of the top suicide spots in the UK before they put extra barriers up. One morning in ’96/’97 I was crossing the river on the way to work and a body floated down with the tide just as I was on a footbridge. The bodies could go upriver for a mile or so before coming back down again. Some coppers were on the bank as the body got stuck on the mud – we could see it all out the window of the building I was in.
There’s also the Gentleman of Heligoland:
“The Gentleman of Heligoland is the nickname of an unidentified decedent whose body was found in the waters off Heligoland in 1994. His body showed signs of having been beaten and his death is a suspected case of murder…His height was 6 feet 5 inches (196 cm) and German authorities estimated his age at the time of his death to have been between 45 and 50. He was nicknamed “The Gentleman” because he was smartly dressed… It was revealed that his tie was made by Marks & Spencer for English and French language markets, which included Canada at the time. It was also revealed that his body had two cast iron shoe lasts attached to it. Each weighed 3 kilograms (6.6 lb), were based on female feet and bore the initials AJK, the trademark of AJ Jackson in Bristol… A radio isotope analysis conducted in 2022 at Murdoch University determined that The Gentleman may have spent most of his life in Australia.” From Wikipedia
https://youtu.be/PfHvKoVPr1s?si=0Q863hdODjJgQIfV
@David Morgan
Sorry I snapped at you t’other day. Must learn to hold my tongue.
Maybe we bumped into each other way back when at Barry Island or Coney Beach, Porthcawl. My mother was from Swansea so we made regular trips over to South Wales, esp after the bridge was built.
At least I now know who the Tamara Bunke was who used to post here regularly. Doppelgänger Gertrud(e) Helke indeed! Own up boyo. How are things in Vallegrande?
Clifton Suspension Bridge Man update:
“Police have revealed that they have a full DNA profile for a man who was found at the bottom of the Clifton Suspension Bridge bridge [sic] 27 years ago with a bizarre list of items in his pockets including a bible and a penny whistle.
Officers now say all they need is a name to finally unravel a mystery that has remained unsolved for almost three decades.”
See: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12769943/investigators-closer-solving-mystery-death-clifton-suspension-bridge.html
Daily Mail! Aaargh! I was born five minutes walk from the bridge (in the small St Brenda’s Maternity Hospital, closed on 16 Nov 1975).
https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101280334-st-brendas-court-and-attached-railings-and-entrance-piers-clifton-ward
Know y’all be interested (not)!
I have managed to find all residents of 97 Payneham Rd. St. Peters from 1951-1961, except for D. Robertson.
C. S. Lafferty – Claude Stanley Lafferty (1913-1990)
Mrs. A. E. Odgers – Anice Elizabeth Odgers (nee McCrorie), born and married in Broken Hill. Husband Albert E. Odgers, daughter Joyce (born 1919 Mayfield, Newcastle, married in 1945 to Lance M. Webber in Adelaide).
Engagemnt notice says he was the son of Mrs. and Mr. T. Webber but he was the son of Mrs. and Mrs. J. W. Webber, of Glenelg, which is what the wedding notice and his Army files state (father John William Webber)
R. J. Webber – Raymond Jack Webber (1918-2009), Lance’s brother, and probably the Adelaide representative of Cox Bros Adelaide store in 1952, 1953 (Mr. Ray Webber, floor coverings) and J. Craven & Co Ltd in 1958, married to Betty Doreen (Maybe Dooreen Frocks’ owner!). She died in 2012.
I think she could be Betty Doreen Toseland, born in Wellington, 1918, father Archibald Thompson Toseland.
Dorothy: Lord you”re dead to me. Rest in Peace, Rest in Peace, rest in Peace.
Pat: go back to 1947 which must be your logical start point. As for Paynanam Rd. Robertsons, you’ll find an inital D and a D. J. plus more D. J. Robertsons in other nearby locats up to 1959 or later as I seem to recall bringing to your notice…like yesterday!
@Lord CoB,
I haven’t lived in Wales since the 1980s. I am a 1/2 n 1/2. English and Welsh.
The only possible D. Robertson that I could find so far is Doris Mary Rose Robertson, who married Herbert Farmer (1896-1929) in 1921 in Adelaide.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/158821929/herbert-farmer
His mother, sisters and brothers left a Return Thanks note to friends, relatives, and matron and staff at Myrtle Bank.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/87459303/8639564#
A family tree on Ancestry says Doris Mary Rose Robertson died in 1990. I couldn’t find her birth record, grave or a death notice.
@LordCoB …. whoopsie, I wrote down the wrong streets, was looking at it upside and sideways at the time, just checked again and it’s Small and Quay in Bristol …. forgiveness. I watched the Georgia Marie youtube, thanks, most interesting. I learnt about the case from a podcast called The Missing which is pretty good too.
@Curio … what a story, oh my goodness, is there more to it that you can share? So that was back in about 1988 ……. wow! Why would Jo be fascinated with your name Webb ……. h’mm …… completely interesting
@Sanders … I cant find the Charles Weber v National Electricity on NAA, found the puzzle book though, that’s Otto Constantine Weber and Carl Niehus …. it is interesting that it’s been digitised, h’mm, and the puzzles do look tricky. Do you think Carl is masquerading as Mr Niehus or Otto?
@DavidMorgan hope all went well today for you with the radioactivity, take it easy.
@Pat & @Jo will see what I can find about the Domestic Arts School and Brunswick schools at PV – I think the Albert one is the only one there, might be worth a look, will head there once I pick out something to view. Let me know if you want something specific looked at, will do, no worries, got some free time now and I darn tootin’ love that place.
Poppins..@NAA (all) ‘Case of Charles Weber, Line Inspector, Electrical Engineers Branch – Leakage of Information’. NB: File year 1922 when our Carl was 17.
@et al (Jolson)
I have never used pseudonyms on any site e.g. Tamara Bunke. I object to these fake IDs as it means what people say can’t be trusted if they don’t say it as themselves.
I have requested the Somerton Man Case File under the Freedom of Information Act. Has anyone done this?
@ Poppins,
Good luck finding young Dorothy!
@Curio
Is your nephew called Jarad?
Are you saying that the MLIABO code is supposed to be summat to do with Uranda and the Emissaries of Divine Light?
They have a centre near Adelaide:
https://riverdell.org.au/about-us/
Don’t think Prosper Thomson had a brother Carl and therefore no nephew Carl Jr! Wasn’t Carl Thompsen one of two Charles Mikkelsens who supposedly worked with Keith Waldemar Mangnoson in Renmark in 1939?
Nick did once speculate “Basically, might this “Carl Thompsen” have been a misspelled / misremembered cousin or relation of Prosper McTaggart Thomson? Might he also have been a trusted out-of-state fellow crim in the same interstate stolen car fencing ring?” ” – “THOMPSON TWINS” TAMAM SHUD HYPOTHESIS…”
Is that a tintinnabulation I hear? – “”the tintinnabulation that so musically wells / From the bells, bells, bells, bells, / Bells, bells, bells / From the jingling and the tinkling of the bells.” (EA Poe, ‘The Bells’)
Is Mike Dash of Smithsonian discussion fame the Welsh Mike Dash who wrote the excellent Batavia’s Graveyard about the shipwreck and subsequent massacre of at least 110 people on the Houtman Abrolhos, off the coast of WA? Is that one only half Welsh like Dave Morgan and me or is he wholly Walian?
Is Mr Morgan Tamara Bunke?
Has B Deveson sniffed out any more pinkos recently?
Does John Sanders (or Ed1966 – a celebration of Geoff Hurst’s hat-trick?) put his clackers in a jam jar at night like Mr Bowes? Has he got a sister in Brisbane who he fare dodges on buses to go and see? Don’t think he’d have got away with that in the City of Churches with milongal driving the bus.
All questions and no answers.
@Poppins
Thought you might have meant Small Street. Still can’t see “Finger Man” though! I once briefly worked in Albion Chambers off Small Street in 1980 as a factotum in a accountancy office, and always had a pint or two at lunchtime in one of the local hostelries. One had to in those days! I also did jury service at the Bristol Crown Court on the same street about twenty years ago.
Another candidate for Mrs. D. Robertson is Dora Jean Blakeway, married and divorced Charles Nicholas (Nick) Robertson (RAAF) in 1945 on the grounds of adultery, although I doubt she would retain his surname in 1952.
There’s Doreen Jeanne Robertson, born in Flinders, 1917, daughter of George Louis Robertson. Couldn’t find any other info.
Another Doreen married Louis William Robertson in Pirie, 1935. Looking for more info.
Where can I read Dorothy Pyatt’s “The Somerton Beach body mystery.” South Australia Police Historical Society Hue & Cry, October 2007?
It is curious searching through the CM back to 2014 most people thought an electrical screwdriver meant Carl was a criminal not an electrical engineer. It is curious no-one thought loupe meant he was doing very precise work that he needed to magnify things. But I could imagine that also meant he was a criminal with diamonds. Even for Prof Abbott knowing he was an electrical engineer made him focus on Carl being a wife-beating gambler. The broken kitchen knife again for me seems to be a prising tool not a cutting tool though possibly a cable stripping tool.
Putting the small electrical screwdriver, loupe and a prising tool suggests to me someone fixing a small precision device. To be honest in this era you’d think he was prising the case off a battery-powered watch using his loupe to see the edge and using the small screwdriver to lift the batteries. I couldn’t think of any job that would only need such basic equipment and I don’t see a small electrical screwdriver as a criminal’s tool. More like someone wiring a plug.
I wonder why society needs a suicide to be a guilty criminal. Do only bad people kill themselves?
LordCoB – here he is, the first place I dragged little yellow man to in Bristol. – just to prove I didn’t imagine it. I’ll delete it before the clock strikes midnight tonight ….. make haste to see … I’ll stroll some more around Bristol ……
https://imgur.com/2gHT59U
http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/tamanshud/pyatt1997.pdf
http://www.policejournalsa.org.au/0004/16a.html
@ Pat – some of Dorothy Pyatt’s work.
Good luck with the FOI request!
I had to look up what this Bunke phrase meant with AI. So I don’t think I would be writing outside my experience.
The phrase “They’ve dug the old vaquero up” seems to be a metaphorical expression. The term “vaquero” is Spanish for a herder of cattle, and it’s the root of the English word “buckaroo”. It refers to a horse-mounted livestock herder, a tradition that has its roots in the Iberian Peninsula and was extensively developed in Mexico. In this context, “dug up” could mean that they have brought back or revived something old or from the past. So, the phrase could mean that they’ve brought back or revived the old cowboy or his ways. However, without more context, it’s hard to say exactly what the writer intended with this phrase. It could be referring to a person, a practice, a tradition, or even a piece of history.
and this baffled me
If the T is a T, then the closest type of T I can think of is the T I was taught as “Schulschrift”. The first image here shows a Swiss example from 1947. The capital T is in the final word of row 5: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausgangsschrift
I did German for 1 year in Wales I don’t think I could get beyond “Ich habe ein ganz jahr deutsche gelernt”.
The person seems very Bunke-esque – Spanish and German speaking.
Pat: I already mentioned Dora Jean & Charles Robbertson divorce ’45 on 10th inst. 10.06pm…As for your query on the Dorothy Pyatt Hue & Cry SBM, I recall it being very interesting, especially in that it made no mention of the Rubaiyat, Alf Boxall
or the Thomson family. Should be still up on line but don’t take that as gospel.
@ Asa (Yoelson),
I don’t recall ever taking a bus anywhere in Brisbane, except I once caught a coach service to Moree early 70s where my sister once lived (84 Gwyder St.). Back in July I caught a suburban train from Eagle Farm airport to Robina with a friend that cost us $75.00 one way. So no sisters or kin. in Bjelke Petersenville QLD God’s Honour; and I can assure that Comrade Tamara Bunke & David Morgan have no affiliations at all.
Pat…I was wrong about the ROk but right about the sán mention of Alf & Jestyn.
@Poppins
I see him now. Yobbo! Have a trip round the Floating Harbour – see Brunel’s SS Great Britain which used to carry emigrants to Australia – and then go up to Clifton.
“Antony Gibbs & Sons [a trading company] may have intended to employ Great Britain only to exploit a temporary demand for passenger service to the Australian goldfields following the discovery of gold in Victoria in 1851, but she found long-term employment on this route…In 1852, Great Britain made her first voyage to Melbourne, Australia, carrying 630 emigrants. She excited great interest there, with 4,000 people paying a shilling each to inspect her. She operated on the England–Australia route for almost 30 years, interrupted only by two relatively brief sojourns as a troopship during the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny. Gradually, she earned a reputation as the most reliable of the emigrant ships to Australia and carried the first English cricket team to tour Australia in 1861.” (From Wikipedia)
Search for the Clifton Club, which was the first building designed by Francis Greenway, the famous convict and Sydney architect who, quoting Wikipedia again, was “perhaps the only convicted forger in the world depicted on a banknote [$10]”
If you want to see the area where CoB Hall is located it’s five minutes walk from Cary Grant’s Birthplace, which you can search for. Can’t be more precise for obvious reasons. Cary used to visit folks round here when I were but a lad, and although I saw his Roller – probably swankier than Geoff Lockyer’s – I never saw the man himself.
David Morgan: Tamara Bunke’s “vaquero” may refer to Comrade Che Guevara, exhumed remains of whom were identified by authorities from his distinctive tobacco pouch…from memory.
Here’s two Dorothy Pyatt things … spot on Sanders, beat me too it.
https://web.archive.org.au/awa/20110225061206mp_/http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/tamanshud/pyatt1997.pdf
https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20100327120725/http://www.policejournalsa.org.au/0004/16a.html
@David Morgan
You did write about Tamara on your blog! You are probably of the same vintage as me and will remember when the hippest t-shirt you could own depicted Che Guevara.
In many countries around the world today one of the hippest t-shirts you can wear features the Joy Division’ Unknown Pleasures’ cover – ” a “stacked plot” of the radio emissions given out by a pulsar, a “rotating neutron star”.” Especially favoured amongst K-Pop stars.
https://www.radiox.co.uk/artists/joy-division/cover-joy-division-unknown-pleasures-meaning/
I bought one in Perth, WA, in 1983 (my only band t-shirt ever) so I was well ahead of the curve (geddit?) Fans of the band don’t like hipsters and American teenage girls wearing the shirt when they don’t know the album, but I reckon I had a right to wear it as I had seen the band the day after it was (officially if not actually) released in June 1979, supporting The Cure.
You’ll have to ask Sanders or milongal about the Tamara Bunke who used to post here. They were thick as thieves. She or he was the first person to react to Nick’s’ SOMERTON MAN IDENTIFIED AS CARL “CHARLES” WEBB (BUT MYSTERY STILL INTACT)…’ post.
“Tamara Bunke
on July 26, 2022 at 6:11 pm said:
But but but… what about the micro writing. What about Fedosimov?
Gentlemen, please. Don’t leave me here. Gentlemen!
What about…
PS: congratulations to Professor Abbott! Great job!”
Barely heard of since!
Can’t be Gordon Cramer who is moaning that DA is “intellectually corrupt”! What a shit that bloke is.
No doubt the old timers – eg Johnno and Pete, already know that Stephen King drew inspiration from the Somerton Man case!
I haven’t read the Colorado Kid, although I do note that one of the characters is called Dave Bowie! I haven’t read any Stephen King novels since high school, when I used to wolf them down; my twin daughters, however, do a great party gig as the Grady sister “Shining twins”.
https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/916109
Red rum! Red rum!
David Morgan: worth repeating from my old SM post; that Tamara Bunke @Tania was killed fighting government soldiers in Bolivia, with Che Guevara having been wounded captured and executed days later. His remains were exhumed near Vallegrande airport in 1997 (Wiki) and were ID’d from a dental mold match of his u/l palate. The tobacco pouch given to him by an Airforce officer was recovered but apparently not needed for the identification and it subsequently went missing.
@Lord CoB Carl Thompson has been discussed before on the FB The Somerton Man Website before with a photo provided: I mentioned Carl Thompson junior there back then. Jarad indeed is a half-nephew and I don’t use Webb like my half-brother and his four children do.
Just putting up this photo in case we find out Dorothy went there …. anyone resemble her parents in this lot?
https://imgur.com/XVRgzZ8
@Sanders, ah,no worries, found it …. it hasn’t been digitised yet – found him in the Commonwealth Gazette though, he seems to have been a bit naughty but not naughty enough to lose his job. “Reduction of Status and Salary – Charles Weber, Line Inspector, Electrical Engineer’s Branch, Salary 324 pounds reduced to Line Foreman, with salary of 240 pounds from 24 August 1922.”
From memory David I do believe Heydee Bunkum had mastered Russian, French German and English in the 50s whilst a student in Stalinstadt, last named being with a soft Irish brogue picked up from constant intercourse with Che Geuvara.
“Constant intercourse with Che Guevara”!! I have to say, even occasional intercourse with Che Guevara would probably have been good! My friend once threw roses on his grave and told me that he was the only man she would ever truly love! I’m not sure where the Irish rogue figured in all of this!
Jo: it might surprise but, I don’t recall having read anything by Stephen King, he being a novelist to all intents. I think ‘Colorado Kid’ had cigarettes as a clue in the plot…having a sqiz through his 75 odd yarns, ‘Under the Dome’ stands out as being one to browse through, that’s if it’s free and my Nook still functions.
@ Poppins – fabulous! Where did you find this? They would be around the right age! Who knows? It’s funny, the short bob sported by many of these girls is having its moment again!
@ Poppins – Dorothy must surely have gone to Brunswick NW – they were involved in the Gould League!! Interestingly, it was also a training school for “bush” teachers who were sent off to small, often one teacher, schools.
https://www.brunswicknwps.vic.edu.au/page/166/History
SAPOL response to the FOI request for the Somerton Case File:
“You will have to apply for this via the police station and pay the fee as no information will be provide [sic] via email”
That was a crappy reply.
Now it’s up to you guys in Australia.
Excellent photo Poppins!
We need David Morgan’s AI buddies to blend Alice’s and John Comber’s photos.
It would be handy to have a photo of adult Phyllis. Has anyone found which school she attended?
@JS,
I had researched Bunke extensively simply because someone in the Death in Ice Valley podcast FB group said ‘she’ thought she was the Isdal Woman. I could see her point ‘at the time’. But I later learnt from my emails with Missal that he was asked to draw a German woman. So not exactly a sketch of the body and only one hotel receptionist was allowed to have input. It seems like it was some sort of sketch stitch-up by NRK. I now believe the original 1970 sketches were highly accurate. Other sketch artists were asked but their sketches were never publicised by NRK as they didn’t fit the German script. To be honest the ones I’ve seen are highly inaccurate. If they’d asked Sketchcop who drew SM – now he has some photo tracing system that creates identical sketches with facial ID.
I located a transcript of a lengthy chat with Bunke’s mother. So it detailed a large part of their early life. But there is also a scientific paper on the transfer to the mausoleum. The other males were DNA tested. Only Che and Bunke were not. Her mother never wanted the body returned to Germany yet she wasn’t Bolivian and she wasn’t Che’s girlfriend. Her mother’s big focus was to get the Russians to say she wasn’t KGB. But what about Stasi?
That got me looking for Gertrud Helke who was a perfect doppelganger in East Germany. Perfect in the sense that with early facial ID software she scored ‘as the person’ in pictures of Bunke at different ages. Also, the scores correlated with age – so as their ages matched more closely the scores got higher.
I also contacted her first Spanish biographer asking whether she really died and he seemed open to doubt initially but then refused to contact me again when i sent him details of Getrud Helke. Perhaps he didn’t mind a fictional outcome like NRK.
Many people have asked NRK why they have ignored my ‘Valentine’ solution but they have ignored them even though she is the only real person who appears in the police evidence having been identified as the body by hostel staff. Unfortunately, a ‘magic postcard proof of life’ of Valentine was also accepted in 2018 by lawyer Aske in his book. I think even NRK thought that would be too embarrassing to broadcast by the BBC.
Anyone who searches on myheritage with her real name will find the NRK researcher was searching for her in 2016. The 2024 docudrama ‘may’ include Valentine but I’m not holding my breath as I was supposed to be involved.
She doesn’t have to be the body she can just be the crazy woman in the hotels like Douglas Wicoff jr had the same acting part in Norway in 1971.
Depending on my PET scan results I may never see it.
If the real Tamara Bunke ‘in the CM group’ is interested I probably have the only transcript in English of her mother talking with a journo. I can provide a link to it. It may die with me! The real CM Tamara Bunke could try to track down her older cousin. Now there is a real possibility of a body double for Bunke in the jungle! Her older cousin was about 6 years older and is never mentioned by history – just in the transcript very briefly.
Mr Pelling has my email address that I use to sign in if they want anonymity – i.e. ask him to ask me to forward to him, to them…
I wonder if John Crick remembered that Dorothy died late 90s because his grandma Muriel Agnes Crick (nee Pollard) died on 26 Sep 1997?
Here’s where I found that photo – lots of good stuff here to look through in different category headings there. I just typed Brunswick School in search and that photo is No.70.
https://find.slv.vic.gov.au/discovery/search?query=any,contains,brunswick%20school&vid=61SLV_INST:SLV&search_scope=slv_local&tab=searchProfile
H’mm, I’ve picked out someone who I think resembles Dorothy’s parents and Aunt Maude …….
Whoops, this link has all the headings
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/education
Jo: Che Guevara was Irish on his paternal side, his ancester retired soldier Patrick Lynch having taken up a grant in the early days of settlement down Rio de la Plata, Argentina. Thought everyone knew that, Maurreen O’hara did!
David Morgan: my expectation is that the commenter posting here as “Tamara Bunke” (and indeed as “Tammy Shud”) was doing so far more for the lolz than reflecting any kind of familial connection. But what do I know.
Jo…no Irish ancestory running through my veins and thankfully no brogue but the poor spelling is telling.
Looking back over some of Tamara Bunke’s comments they are quite witty and amusing.
Don’t know about intercourse with Che, occasional or otherwise, but our Tania nailed it when she/he/non-binary person compared tuning in to the constant spats between Bowes, Sanders et al (Yoelson) with perving on lethargic and lifeless luvvers.
“Tamara Bunke
on August 12, 2020 at 10:41 am said:
Is anyone else bored by the spectacle of septuagenarian Aussies trying to land punches on each other? It’s like watching zombies copulate.”
I thought they were both in their 80s!
Later tho’ the Guerrillera said “Pete, it seems to me that you have a twinkle in your eye much like Che’s.” That’s Che lying on a concrete slab in the laundry room of the Nuestra Señora de Malta in Vallegrande after his execution presumably.
All reminds me of ‘Che’ by, appropriately given my top SM theory, American electro-punk duo Suicide – “When he died/the whole world lied/said he was a saint/but I know he ain’t”:
https://youtu.be/e6tcI9_KpZU?si=uUoWAojJUGvRPytq
Later still: “While Pits, Sanders and Angliski Boris (one wonders if he really IS the Prime Minister of that poor benighted isle?) indulge in epistemological dick-waving….” Hope that isn’t Nietzschean epistemological parody dick-waving. The mind boggles.
On the other ‘and poor old Tammy (Shud) does seem a little obsessed with Gordon “The Moron” Cramer.
“Two geriatric dinosaurs [Bowes and Sanders] trying to land punches from behind their walking aids is not my idea of a cause worth taking sides on.
You know what the biggest problem with all this is? You both make Cramer’s cod-psychiatrist diagnosis actually look correct.”
Tam also makes quite a few Isdal Woman refs which is why I thought of Dai Morgan. (All quotes from Misc Stuff – why???)
Meanwhile Code Brown over at TS/BS:
“You will have noticed how the the trolls in their various iterations, never ever attempt to disprove the evidence that has been posted here. It’s a theme that’s common to all of the ‘naysayers’ which I think is there preferred term for the small but vociferous group that mainly resides on the Nick Pelling blog. Their MO is to attack, demean, belittle, denigrate and discredit their target. When it comes to reasoned and logical discussion, they don’t go near it, because they lack the depth, knowledge and experience. Simply put, they are incapable. As you point out, immature, and in so many ways. After 10 years of effort, they have consistently failed and they will continue to do so.”
@Poppins Not a fixed number different for each individual search: I am guessing which one. Compare her to David Morgan’s photo of Dorothy: 1934 grades 7 and 8 second in from the right of the row third back. Dorothy has a distinctive typical Scottish jutting jaw.
@Nick
Re Tammy Bunke, talk about stating the bleedin’ obvious. Better stick to your usual Trappist silence when it comes to contributors’ comments, such as my help with your Pertuisanal problems over on the ‘LE FLIBUSTIER MYSTERIEUX…’ thread. Actually my ole mate and fellow Bristolian Steve could help you there with his special Preparation ‘H’, which will not only clear up piles, but also help with hair loss, erectile dysfunction and Scottish jutting jaw.
Apologies by the way to Baron Bragg for spelling his first name with an i instead of a y!
@David Morgan
I know you are Northampton based but, jeez, you don’t half talk a load of cobblers! Just like JS talks a load of Vietnamese river cobblers, as we used to call basa (a catfish) here in Blighty.
“Cần Thơ gạo trắng nước trong,
Ai đi đến đó lòng không muốn về.”
@John Sanders
You haven’t missed much never travelling on Brisbane’s buses. I only spent a couple of weeks there, but when I took the bus from Cairns to Brizzie a N Qld chap who was studying at the university recommended the Salvation Army People’s Palace, “a heritage-listed building and former temperance hotel… designed by Colonel Saunders [!!!]” (Wikipedia) I also stayed at the People’s Palace in Sydney Town.
It was opposite the railway station and the first evening we went for a drink (no temperance for we). As we were passing the station bar this chap said that there was someone calling out for me. Unlikely as I’d never been in Brisbane before, but lo and behold it was a feller I had met a year previously in Broome.
It happened to me quite often that someone would come up to me in Oz and ask me how my studies were going or some such, and on a few occasions I didn’t have a clue who they were. I must have had a very distinctive physiog or perhaps a notorious reputation!
@All
Che’s pa was Ernesto Guevara Lynch. JS got all his info about Maurreen O’hara (sic) from Wikipedia. Begosh and begorrah! ‘Twixt cup and lip Sanders’ Irish brogue became Jo’s Irish rogue.
On the principle one can never have too much music here’s a link to another song from my collection, The United States of America’s 1968 classic ‘Love Song For The Dead Che’, sung by another Dorothy, sadly not our Doff unless she moved to LA and changed her name to Moskowitz.
https://youtu.be/KFjuvllnJaE?si=SnlPxKhbU7ejn_qN
@Jo
Long time SM sleuths will recall another tenuous King/Shining connection to the mystery. In Stanley Kubrick’s Eyes Wide Shut, the orgy happens at Somerton, a Long Island mansion (actually filmed at Mentmore Towers in Bucks, England). Of course Kubrick’s movies have become a “breeding ground” for conspiracy theories.
“Some of the more notable ones related to The Shining receive focus in the fascinating documentary Room 237. Included among these is the theory that Kubrick helped NASA fake the first moon landing in 1969, the year after his science fiction masterpiece 2001: A Space Odyssey hit theaters…”
Read More: https://www.slashfilm.com/567625/eyes-wide-shut-revisited/
“The party at Somerton is a sort of a Satanic inverse of the one with heavenly gold lights that opened the movie. It’s an underworld descent for Bill where we see people who are naked except for masks, as opposed to fully clothed people with visible faces—which nonetheless conceal secrets beneath their practiced civility.”
For more on the supposed link between the Shining film and Freemasonry (and child abuse) see:
https://castaliafoundation.com/Kubricks-Maze.html
“On a subconscious level Hollywood-insiders, Stephen King, and their lackeys in the ‘press’ hated The Shining because they sensed — albeit many of them unconsciously — that the film was an attack on the industry. And it was. Stephen King has repeatedly said the movie made him feel “deeply disappointed,” and that much of his original story was “wasted.”
Eyes Wide Shut cost Kubrick his life. Indeed, this later film was too transparent in its attacks on the Freemasonic pedophiles. The Shining, however, was much more covert in critiquing the ‘elite’. So much so that many of the occultists, including Jack Nicholson himself, were not aware that Kubrick was dismantling their world, and mopping up their horrors…it is also interesting that Kubrick links RedRum, or Red Room (‘red rum’) and ‘murder’ semantically in The Shining. The Red Room is both the location in The Shining where Jack Nicholson’s character is instructed to murder his family, but is presumably the place where the previous caretaker was instructed to murder his. We also have the broader definition of Red Room in the context of The Playboy Mansion or Masonic temple, our overarching allegory: ‘Grand’ buildings where abuse takes place.”
Lordy Lordy CoB: I was responding to David Morgan re everyone’s favourite guerillera, but at least it inspired you to read a new load of Bunke. Still, Bunke is history, right?
As far as yer man Gordon goes, you must surely admit that while we merely fail, he fails hard.
Can any of you access Libraries Australia?
https://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/search/display?dbid=auth&id=35532161
Going back over some ITSM FB posts and came up with:
1) Tammy Shud might be Tammy Armalita Donna Stewart from Nashville, Tennessee (presumably not Tammy Wynette who died there in 1998), who interacted with GC:
“Hi Tammy, I know we disagree on the spy situation but comment here is not about that.” (GC 4 Oct 2021)
Maybe she carries an Armalita rifle with her at all times just in case the revolution comes to Music City!
“Tammy Armalita Donna Stewart
My opinion is that to [sic] much focus on jestyn and spies. Thats why it hasn’t been solved. I mean how could this be just a ordinary man.” (11 June 2019)
Tammy Armalita Donna Stewart
“I cannot help but to think that he was a cyclist. The muscles in his legs and the way his body was tanned sends me in this direction.” (14 June 2018)
2) “Robyn Coghlan (13 June 2022):
“In my version [of the Rubaiyat], given to my father by Jestyn in 1945, the previous verse (74) is: “Ah, Moon of my Delight who know’st no wane, The Moon of Heaven is rising once again: How oft hereafter rising shall she look Through this same Garden after me in vain!” Read with the following last verse 75, the two suggest Somerton Man lying on the beach having poisoned himself after being rejected by her. The inscription she wrote in the book I have was 70: “Indeed, indeed, Repentance oft before I swore – but was I sober when I swore? And then and then came Spring, and hand-in-hand My threadbare Penitence a-pieces tore.”
Robyn Coghlan (14 June 2022)
“Mine also has Rose [ie rose, not hand, in hand] but I was copying from Jestyn’s handwritten version and misread this bit. My version is by A.W. Hamilton and Edward Fitzgerald, illustrated by W.G. Stirling, published 1944 by Australian Publishing Co. Pty. Ltd. Sydney, N.S.W.”
Robyn Coghlan (15 Jun 2022)
“My copy is…is distinguished by having the English-translated verses on the left-hand page and a Malay poem on the right. The latter “seeks to convey the essential meaning of the poet as found in Edward Fitzgerald’s English version but dressed in a Malayan garb.”
Presumably everyone has seen this run through of Alf Boxall’s copy:
https://youtu.be/TMb45xS5q7I?feature=shared
Why do some people seem to think JEstyn drew the female figure below the handwritten quote?
See also Bob Forrest on The Whitcombe & Tombs Rubaiyats:
https://www.bobforrestweb.co.uk/The_Rubaiyat/N_and_Q/Whitcombe_and_Tombs/Whitcombe_and_Tombs.htm
Keep your traps shut Sanders and milongal. I know you discussed all this in 1957.
Bob Forrest gives his address as Prestwich, nr Manchester, where Nico lived at the end of her life, and where The Fall’s Mark E Smith lived all of his life. Now, have I told you about my brief meetings with both those personages…?
3) Mark Ihrig (3 Oct 2020)
“Is this a photo of Somerton Man, standing next to the gentleman with an American striped tie? It is similar to the striped tie found on Somerton Man’s deceased body. The photo was most likely taken on November 21, 1948 at the GM Holden open house for families, at the Melbourne Fisherman’s Bend factory. It was taken a little over a week before GM Holden introduced it’s first all Australian car, the Holden FX 48/215…
Was this Somerton Man who was photographed in the November 21st photo, and was he at the November 29th launch party in Melbourne? Did he catch a train from Melbourne to Adelaide that night/ early Nov 30th morning? The information that we have, is that Melbourne might have been one of the areas that he came from by train. If this is true, was Somerton Man exposed to certain elements in the factory leading up to his death?
The spikes of lead, arsenic, and Strontium 88 found in the isotope analysis of Somerton Man’s hair, might have been caused by his supervision or participation in the vehicle painting process, during the manufacturing of the initial Holden FX 48/215 cars.”
You’ll have to look up his post for the photos!
@Curio
Why so coy? You told me on 9 Dec (my b’day):
“I met met Jo Thomson 35 years ago then handed her a copy of the famous book and mentioned I am a Webb. Her reaction was to yell for Robin to come meet me.”
At least she didn’t yell for Batman!
This sketch was filmed in Bristol:
https://youtu.be/93bAdEf0pzc?feature=shared
Holy meat pasties Batman!
I couldn’t find the photo of Carl Thomson/Thompson on DA’s FB page or mention of Carl Jr. After a while the connection there keeps snapping. Aw! I did find this post:
“I have seen this thin book [Rubaiyat] tucked inside a larger book at a book fair. The pages it was put between may have been important to deciphering the code.” 18 Feb 2021
What about “Somerset Man” and Lloyd Arthur Meeker? Where do they fit in?
Also I saw your putative “Scottish jutting jaw” Doff from Poppins’ photo, and Dai Morgan’s supposed Carl and Doff photo from Leo Keane’s 1943 wedding on his blog. Hmmm!
@Lord COB
You put your Vietnamese bit under me? I think you infer I didn’t want to go back to the Rhondda Valleys. But again I wasn’t from there. I had a miracle IT job there I didn’t apply to.
All new ideas are strange.
Law lecturer Dennis Zacher Aske believed no rich American would stay in a hostel and it clouded his thinking entirely to the point of hypercriticism of Norweigan 1970 VG journalists for stating it – since it implied Valentine was the Isdal Woman.
In 1944 no scientist, judge, coroner, policeman could accept Dr Palmer-Benbow could measure facial points to match a body with a photograph. Even today 80% must be skeptical that their own passport is accurate using facial ID as they pass through airport gates.
Yet when IDF find terrorists in Palestine with facial ID (matching video image to ID card) and bomb their whole apartment block or refugee camp killing 30+ men, women and children they accept facial ID is accurate and their family and friends deserved to die as well as acceptable collateral damage.
I used facial ID to match Charlie to Carl to the body. Even Abbott probably doesn’t accept that as ‘evidence’. Even Colleen doesn’t accept it as factual evidence like DNA. Yet if she went to passport control and they asked her for some factual evidence she would show her passport with its picture of her. Imagine if they said “No we need factual evidence. We can’t accept a photograph of you as a fact. How do we know that picture is you?”
Just in case you bozos haven’t twigged, Robyn Coghlan. resident of Canberra, is Alf Boxall’s daughter! She’s Derek Abbott’s FB friend & another friend is David Boxall. I Hate with a capital H snooping on other people but if they do put stuff in the public domain on social meedya that’s their choice. My own FB avatar relates to obscure early ’70s Thames TV series ‘Shadows of Fear’ which put the shits up me as an adolescent, esp the theme tune by Bristol’s own Roger Webb (another f&$@ing Webb!) The only item of clothing I have ever owned that I am proud of is a 1980s Crombie which I used to wear around Manchester and the figure I captured from the intro to that prog has a similar coat. No-one needs to see a photo of me. So there!
Robyn speculated that: “[Verse 74] Read with the following last verse 75, the two suggest Somerton Man lying on the beach having poisoned himself after being rejected by her.” So if Alf was involved he obviously didn’t say anything to his daughter, unless she is keeping mum (or dad)!.
Anyone fancy forking out $35 plus p&p for this?
https://www.boxall.id.au/genealogy/
@John Sanders
There’s a Vietnam War connection!
Don’t be a tightwad!
@Curio, ah ……. I straight away chose seventh in from the left third row but now you’ve placed doubt in my mind, haha …….. h’mm, where’s the photo of Dorothy with the jutting jaw, is it on this site somewhere, would be great to see it.
So we need to find out if the school has the old pupil registers or have knowledge of its whereabouts ………..
Comparison pictures:
https://imgur.com/mhf06OF
This wouldn’t be our Phyllis, would it, Church of England Grammar School – would have to be about 5 … probably plenty of Phyllis Robertson’s around the place.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146453756?searchTerm=phyllis%20robertson%20phyllis%20robertson
@David Morgan
No inference meant about the Valleys, Rhondda or otherwise. You, like me, are only half-Welsh but you have a Welsh surname and of course your first name (St) David is also very popular in Wales. My name is as English as they come although you can see Wales from the top of my road (on a clear day). Sorry to confuse you with the Vietnamese bit which was meant for Sanders. I’m just “Spellbound” that you think that Oslo Plaza Woman aka Jennifer Fairgate aka Jennifer Fergate is Siouxsie Sioux’s Doppelgänger!
https://youtu.be/TjvvK-Rj0WI?feature=shared
She was half-Belgian of course.
While we’re on the subject of (post) punk
@Nick
Didn’t know you were a fan of the Gang of Four:
https://youtu.be/aw7PQkxBIWw?feature=shared
@Poppins
You can see the photo of “Doff” -Scottish jaw and all – with “Charlie” via David Morgan’s comment on DA’s FB page.
@ Poppins- I’d go with your pick & I don’t think that would be Phyllis at Melbourne Girls’ Grammar – more professional or pastoralist, middle to upper class, then & even now…
School photos without names are useless. We can all guess second left, third from the bottom. But where does it get us?
You need a strong reference picture to work from to compare. Years ago I was helping a guy develop Azure facial ID software. It was supposed to be able to search through a group photo ‘to find a match’. But it assumed you had a reference photo to match against.
The idea we were working on was using a group of photos of the same person to compare – for example a missing person. A family would have perhaps 5 images of their missing child/parent.
My thinking was to let the general public do the work and compare the people in their own photos with the missing person. But the developer pulled the idea over image copyright and MS storage/processing costs so we never completed Facehunter.
@Poppins see David Morgan’s link https://binreminded.medium.com/searching-for-the-1934-pyjama-girl-and-finding-the-face-of-the-1948-somerton-man-8f26065d5f2f
Bored Bob: You’ve been taking too much notice of the dude’s fairy tales of my boasting of the heroic part I played in losing the the war in Vietnam a million years ago. I think I’ve mentioned more than once that I don’t have the means for on line dollar deals; Besides I have no interest in a book on the Boxall family, especially in that Alf likely had nought to do with Che Guevara, Tamara Bunke, Jestyn Harkness, the Webb/Kean mob or Somerton Man.
@John Sanders
You have made repeated requests for commenters to get back to the SM himself but despite many attempts by me to steer the conversation back to the body in Adelaide and the likelihood that it is Carl Webb the psychotic depressive no-one else is interested, yourself included, and would prefer to find one in a thousand chance pics of Doff, by Azure facial ID software (or any other pseudo-scientific method) or otherwise. Wot’s the point? I’m bored again and have other priorities but will keep abreast of any significant developments so see y’all soon maybe.
As for Alf Boxall you better tell yer mates Bowes and Cramer who still seem obsessed with the man:
Bowes, 7 Dec 2023:
“[Stuart Littlemore was] not so formidable that day in Alf Boxall’s living room when he dropped by for an informal on the record chat with the old boy.
Because he didn’t ask Alf if he knew a man named Keane ….
.. and he didn’t bring a picture of the Somerton Man to the interview to ask Alf if he knew him …
.. and he didn’t ask Alf if he knew Jessica as Jestyn.”
Cramer, Oct 25 2023:
” [My video] shows the presence of a skillfully concealed microcode within the edge of the cover of the book that was given to Army Lieutenant Alf Boxall by the nurse, Jestyn.”
Meanwhile you’ve got your latest conspiracy theory lined up in the likely case that the SAPOL Report confirms the body as Carl Webb. You are now arguing that someone snuck into the cemetery at night and popped Carl’s corpse into the grave and took out SM’s cadaver all unnoticed and with such fine handiwork that no-one spotted any disturbance to the ground. And you say you used to be a copper? I simply don’t believe it – you made that up cobber, no two ways about it, just like most of the other bullshit you post here. You certainly couldn’t prove it cos anyone can forge records and there is nothing you can say which would ever convince me otherwise. For the record I do believe you served in Nam, not summat I envy you for. I met a few Viet vets in my time in Oz and they had all suffered great psychological harm.
@Nick
I see someone styling themselves The Phenomenological Phantasm (S.H.), who was apparently prone to “casting aspergions [?] on Fanny Burney”, beat me to the punch on 21 December last year:
“But I can’t quite picture your particular Gang of Four* [the Cramer/Bowes/Pelling/Sanders cabal] as members of the Illuminati. We’ll have to wait a while yet for the New World Order.
Is John Sanders Cesare to your Dr Caligari?…
*”The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak, the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home.”” [Gang of Four, ‘Not Great Men’]
Funnily enough I don’t even remember reading that!
This Amendment to the Balwyn Heritage Study Peer Review discusses Gilpin’s Idylwylde gate lodge!
https://www.boroondara.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-01/3.1-Amendment-C276-Balwyn-Heritage-Peer-Review%20-%20Consideration-of-Panel-Report.pdf
More from Alf Boxall’s daughter Robyn Coghlan (ITSM FB)
“Robyn Coghlan 28 May 2021
Alf Boxall was not a spy. He was a mechanical engineer with the North Australian Observer Unit, stationed along the Roper River in 1942 to look for signs of the expected Japanese invasion following the bombing of Darwin in February that year. His job was to maintain the small boats that were used on the Roper River and the Gulf of Carpentaria. When the threat of invasion disappeared after Japanese capacity was destroyed by the Battle of the Coral Sea (May 1942), Alf was posted back to Sydney, where he became an instructor with the Water Transport Wing of the School of Military Engineering at Chowder Bay near Clifton Gardens.”
“Robyn Coghlan 15 June 2022
My father’s first posting was to the North Australian Observer Unit (Nackeroos) in 1942, up on the Roper River. This unit was formed after Darwin was bombed and was kept secret so as not to cause panic. It replaced the Darwin Mobile Force which was a small, elite combat team. In 1943, Dad then became an instructor at the School of Military Engineering based at Chowder Bay on Sydney Harbour. I don’t remember his reading the book but, as a child, I too enjoyed looking at the illustrations.”
“Robyn Coghlan 16 June 2022
Another similarity occurs to me. In 1945, when the war was coming to an end, my father was attached to Army Small Ships. He spent the next few years in the islands picking up Army equipment etc. and returning it to Australia. His last voyage was to Timor and Borneo looking for the bodies of Australian soldiers. None were found but Dad enjoyed the sightseeing.”
Now I see what Curio was on about with Lloyd Arthur Meeker (replying to me as it happens on ITSM FB, 15 Sep 2022):
“Dr Fitzpatrick said Dorothy may have joined a hippy or LGBTQ camp. The second last line MLlA with Q might be Meeker Lloyd A because there is a ranch like he started Gawler SA and the Q is a sub-branch of a group known to follow Meeker. The M at start of lines might be a cattle brand for the Meeker ranch. https://sunriseranch.org/history/ ”
That’s the group who have the Adelaide centre I provided a link to above on December 12, 2023 at 2:20 pm.
@Lord Cob,
Facial ID is not pseudo-scientific.
AI:
“Yes, passports do use facial identification. All UK passports, for example, use facial biometrics to measure facial features”.
I doubt the courts would allow pseudo-science on passports.
There is a certain type of person who doesn’t want their dodgy past exposed by facial ID searches.
Obviously, passport quality photos is the ideal to check against.
@ Pat – if JCR moved to the Idlewylde gate lodge in 1936, this is probably when Dorothy left school, aged 16.
David Morgan: I doubt that the particular “certain type of person” you’re referring would have any future need to be fussed over facial recognition on a UK passport be it pseudo-scientific or nay!
@David Morgan Australia is different from the UK. Here we include the French system of enquiry. “Occam’s Razor” is ancient and ignored, as today Australian detectives use “Abduction” (move the facts around till they make sense).
If I was a Victoria resident I would write to the Council of the city of Boroondara or Miss Natica Schmede, Principal at Landmark Heritage Pty Ltd, Greater Melbourne Area, showing the evidence that this was the gatelodge of Gilpin’s mansion and that the soon-to-be wife of The Somerton Man lived there with her family between 1936 and 1940.
Certainly one of the most famous Australian police cases deserves a heritage mention.
Moreover, the reasons given by the panel submitter to dismiss its heritage signifance are not good enough, imho.
@ Jo,
Yes, I think the evidence is definitive, they moved to the gatelodge in 1936. Do you think she would have started her foot specialist career around that time? Where would have been the nearest place to study chiropody?
Could this be Phyllis?
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Mon 13 fev 1939
Page 18
SWIMMERS AT ABBOTSFORD
SWIMMERS AT
ABBOTSFORD
Main Event To
P. Campbell
Thirty-two swimmers participated in
the annual one mile and a quarter han
dicap of the Abbotsford Swimming Club.
There were twenty-one competitors in
the men’s section and eleven in me
women’s. The men’s section was won by
P. Campbell, with G. Allingham second
and D. Mannix third. Fastest time was
made toy A. Main.
M. Monahan won the women’s section,
heading Miss D. Painter, with Miss S.
Anams, who made the fastest time,
third.
The junior races on the programme
resulted:— 50 Ynrds Boys’ Free Style: K.
Underwood, 1; F. Rogers, 2; R. Skldmore
3. 25 Yards Girls’ Race: V. Hogg, I;
V. Jagger, 2; R. Corradun, 3. Diving
Handicap, Senior: R. Bunce, 1; P. Ro
bertson, 2; L. Smart, 3.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205958393?searchTerm=%22p.%20robertson%22%20girls#
Sorry, just noticed the Senior bit..
@Lord Cob,
I don’t think you have been following the current research on Dorothy harking back to the misinformation given to Colleen when we can see from her background she lived in the gatehouse, Gilpin Mansion, Domain Road, Lockyer building a new house for her in Bute which she may never have got to enjoy while she lived in a hotel and Geoff drover his Rolls Royce. A pattern emerges about Lady Dorothy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2hEep7o7wY
I just don’t see her ‘mucking in’. She disconnected from her working-class Robertson family.
Phyllis (15) , a Junior at Geelong High School?
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Thu 10 Oct 1940
Page 12
School Sptorts R. G. EVANS WINS SIX EVENTS
GEELONG HIGH
GEELONG Wednesday -At the Geelong High
School sports the house competition went to
Barrabool House (262 play from Corileigh House
(222 pts ) Championship results were Girls
Seniors — 100 Yds G. Kavanagh, 1; V. Mowat, 2
100 Yds Skipping — V. Mowat, 1; G. Kavanagh, 2
75 Yds — G Kavanagh, 1; V Mowat, 2 Champion
–G Kavanagh. Intermediate Championship, 100
yds — P Seed 1; M. Huon, 2. 75 Yds –P. Seed,
1; M. Huon, 2. Champion –Phyllis Seed. Junior
Championship, 75 yds N. Graham, 1; P. Robert-
son, 2. 50 Yds –N. Graham, 1; G. Keddie, 2.
Champion– Nanette Graham.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11306622?searchTerm=%22geelong%20high%22%20%22p.%20robertson%22#
P. Robertson, under 11 girl at West Preston School in 1935.
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Fri 11 Oct 1935
Page 20
SCHOOL SPORTS
GIRLS’ EVENTS
80 YARDS
Championship: H. Jones (H.), 1; P.
Broome (T-S), 2. 11-12 years: J. Hender
son (E.P.). I; D. Reynolas (W.S.). 2. 12-
13 years: M. Heather (R.). 1; J. Bridges
IT). 2. 13-14 years: H. Jones (H.S.). 1;
L. Cerrard (B.). 2. 14-15 years: M. Eddie
(B.). 1; D. Dalglish (TS-). 2.
60 YARDS
Under 10: L. Lcishman (PS ). 1: M. Con
nelly <B.). 2. Under 11: J. Marshall (R.).
1; E. Murdock 'Th.). 2.
SKIPPING RACES
Under 10.— J. Morris IT S.). 1; R. Jetson
(B ). 2. Under 11.— P. Robertson W.P.), 1;
N. Battlsson (VS.). 2. 11-12 yrs. — D.
Bloomer (H-S). 1; B. Evans (T.S.). 2.
12-13.— A. Baker (W.P.). l; J. Wallls
(H.S.). 2. 13-14— P. Broome (T.S.). 1;
J. Boddy . 2. 14-15— B. Coleman
(SP.). l: Y. Oldls iWS.1, 2.
RELAY RACES <300 YARDS)
Under 12— Tyler Street. 1: Reservoir, 2.
Under 13— Reservoir. 1; Helen Street. 2.
Under 15— Tyler Street. 1.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244801368?searchTerm=%22p.%20robertson%22%20%22girl%22%20%22school%22#
P. Robertson (West Preston), again.
STATE SCHOOL SPORTS.
Brunswick Wins Champion
Shield.
ESSENDON RUNNERS-UP.
More than 1500 State school boys and
girls yesterday competed in the annual
athletic sports held at Olympic Park.
Brunswick winning the district shield
by a substantial margin. The Robin
shield for girls’ marching went to Yarra
Park and the Opie shield for boys march
ing, went to the Box Hill Boys’ Home
team. The champion boy of the sports
was L. Whltechurch, of Flemlngton, and
tho champion girl was N. Phillips, of
West Coburg.
Yesterday’s events resulted:—
GIRLS’ EVENTS.
CHAMPIONSHIP EVENTS.
100 YARDS.
_ Under 15.— if. Phillips (W. Cob,), 1; L.
(D’deno), 2.
80 YARDS.
11-12 Years. — M. Baldwin (Cent.). 1; D.
McDonald (Lith.-st.), 2.
12-13 Years.— R. Brooks (B’ton-at.), 1; J,
Barnes (Cent.), 2.
13-14 Years.— N. Phillips (W. Cob.), 1; D.
Waterman (N.R.), 2; H. Jones (Helon-st.). 3.
14-15 Years. — C. Olver (Gee.), 1; D. Back-
with (Far.-st.), 2; M. Eddy (Bell), 3.
60 YARDS.
Under 10.— M. Leo (Gold-st.), 1; M. Ran
kin (E. Bruns.), 2.
10-11 Years. — A. Froones (G.H.). 1; M.
Cornall (Bruns.), 2.
RELAY RACES.
75 YARDS.
Under 12.— North Brunswick, 1; G!en Hunt-
ly, 2; .Canterbury, 3.
Under 13.— Surrey HiUs, 1; Essendon. 2:
Reservoir, 3.
Under 15.— West Coburg, 1; Essendon, 2;
Glen Huntly, 3.
SKIPPING RACES.
60 Yards.— Under 10: B. Alcock (Pr. Hill),
st ) 3 C0 2; Morrls (Tyler!
(Kew), 1; M. Cooper
(M.P.W.), 2; P. Robertson (W. Pres.), 3.
_ 80 Yards.— 11-12 Years: S. Marchant (W.
l; s. Humphries (Ess.), 2: W.
Drow (Caul.), 3.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203900935?searchTerm=%22p.%20robertson%22%20%22girl%22%20%22school%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11857157?searchTerm=%22p.%20robertson%22%20%22girl%22%20%22school%22#
Phyllis at Methodist Ladies’ College in 1936 (when the Robertsons were living nearby at North Balwyn)?
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Wed 4 Mar 1936
Page 24
SCHOOLS’ SWIMMING
METHODIST LADIES COL.
DIVING— Senior: F. White. 1; B Ridg
way, 2; M. Roberts. 3. Junior: Jean Over-
end. I; A. Bayley, 2: P. Robertson, 3.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244875809
@David Morgan
Oh dear!
Just popped in to see if there was any reaction to my comments of yesterday (zero as expected) and here I am against my better judgment replying to your posts above.
Maybe facial ID in the right (wrong?) hands ain’t “pseudo-scientific” although somewhat sinister. But attempts to compare two different photos esp when “ageing” software has been used sure is. Superimposing poor ol’ Siouxsie Sioux’s face on a photo of the deceased Oslo Plaza Woman’s head is extremely questionable scientifically AND in supremely poor taste. What’s she ever done to you? I see on the Isdal Woman FB group that you belong to someone said that Tamara Bunke (her again) might be the poor unfortunate who died up there in ice Valley. Yeah, okay!
With ref to Doff’s upbringing, actually, and I know you couldn’t care less, my (very) close colleague Ann O was the first person here as far as I am aware to concentrate on the Gilpin connection (shortly after she found the Nan Sparrow nursing/Moseley Street link). As usual no-one else picked it up at the time.
Ann O
on September 1, 2022 at 11:44 am:
“A ref to Jack living in Darwin from Trove:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22432034?searchTerm=john%20coomber%20robertson
Jack had connections with the O Gilpin Limited mentioned in the piece. Another quote from WikiTree: “In 1935 he became the factory manager for O Gilpin Stores, a drapery chain, and then manager of Oliver Gilpin’s property in Balwyn. Here Gilpin had a large house and 40 acres of wildlife sanctuary. Jack lived in The Lodge and amongst his jobs was that of trapping birds and animals in the bush to stock the sanctuary.”
(On the ‘THIS SOMERTON MAN NEWS CYCLE SEEMS TO HAVE PEAKED…’ thread)
Think you were on about the Dunera link back then.
Pat and another colleague of mine, Steve H, had a detailed discussion on Idylwylde from 14 Oct onwards (SOMERTON MAN: THE WEBB V WEBB DIVORCE FILES…) Pat had noticed an article about ‘The Connault’ being up for sale:
https://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/melbourne-vic/heritage-balwyn-mansion-that-had-its-own-zoo-and-artificial-lake-listed-with-20m-price-tag/news-story/2eb504de98699d1103e533de7cae1c79
Steve H
on October 15, 2022 at 5:45 pm said:
“@Pat
Idylwylde’s lodge and the grounds must have been a great place for the young Robertson sisters to frolic in.
Idylwylde was built at a huge cost by Oliver Gilpin but he never lived in it and after his death it was eventually sold – to the Roman Catholic Church for use as a hospital – for a fraction of the cost of building it.
See for example:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/101436558?searchTerm=balwyn%20idylwylde
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223545142?searchTerm=balwyn%20idylwylde ”
Steve H
on October 16, 2022 at 4:14 pm said:
“@Jo
Have you put your offer in for Idylwylde/The Connault yet? estimates are somewhere around $20 million I see.
https://www.commo.com.au/properties/2022/09/26/balwyn-landmark-connault-sale-cbre-and-marshall-white%C2%A0/1664174169 ”
Steve H
on October 16, 2022 at 5:22 pm said:
“J C Robertson’s previous address is noted as Winmallee Road, Balwyn in a newspaper article from 1947 – see my Gilpin/Robertson/Darwin link above. Idylwylde is listed at both that address and Yarrbat Avenue in the newspapers.
See for example:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1108235?searchTerm=idylwylde%20yarrbat%20avenue
J C is listed in the Victoria Sands and McDougall for1940 at the Winmallee Road address (p1895). See also:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11172027?searchTerm=%22o%20gilpin%22%20j%20c%20robertson
The earliest ref to Gilpin’s property at Balwyn I can find is from 1933, obviously not yet built:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201302076?searchTerm=o%20gilpin%20balwyn ”
I can only repeat, you are making so many unfounded assumptions about Doff. Always nice to see Lady P though. Home M’lady?
Meanwhile Gordon Cramer has been havin’ a go at you again on his site (16 December 2023 at 04:58), callin’ you a troll and plagiarist an’ all:
“How about we clarify a few things. Some days ago I raised the issue of the hair samples that didn’t make the grade, one of ever eager trolls seized on that and put the question to Colleen which resulted in a ‘go nowhere’ answer.”
Ouch!
Now I know why Nick increasingly delays posting comments here. One feels an obligation to check one’s comment has been moderated through – and it usually is unless you tell rude jokes about Fanny Burney – but by the time it appears someone else has said summat that you HAVE to reply to.
Of course he’ll say he’s “busy” with other things. Ha! It’s all very good business for him I suppose.
We know that the Robertsons lived at:
– 240 Myers St, Geelong in 1930;
– Brunswick West in 1931 (can someone check the street in the electoral rolls?);
– 26 Mincha St, West Brunswick in 1933;
– 32 Winmalee Rd, North Balwyn between 1936-1940.
I have checked Sands & Mac for 1930 and 1935. No Robertson at 26 Mincha St.
In 1935 .
I have managed to exclude many John Robertsons that were listed at the same adresses in 1930 (when we know they were in Geelong).
One who wasn’t listed in 1930 was listed in North Melbourne in 1935.
John Robertson at 179 Chetwyind St, North Melbourne, which is very close to the Royal Park where John Comber was working and not so far from Brunswick Domestic Arts School where a D. Robertson was competing at the age 14-15.
Sorry if this is old news!
Lord CoB: calling a cipher mysteries research blog “business” sounds a bit of a stretch to my ears. But my non-blog life is indeed busy. Which is nice.
@ Pat – given that we’ve never been able to find Dorothy on either chiropodist or pharmacist’s registers I suspect she learned her trade whilst working in a pharmacy, when chiropody was unregistered and unregulated. I think your “Romany Tan” makeup find actually adds to this context. I don’t agree with David’s harsh portrayal of “Lady Dorothy” but do wonder about the effect of coming in from the hardship of a depression era failing soldier settlement farm and then working class Brunswick to the opulence of Idylewylde and the Domain area of South Yarra (Tristan Buesst had some very lovely properties!).
@Steve & Curio – I’m very intrigued by both the Meeker suggestion & also Curio by your connections to the case via the Webb family & a chance meeting? with Jessica Thomson.
I also discovered a weird connection to the SM world via my husband’s step father’s father- an early signals intelligence operative who was a good friend & business associate of Charlie’s employer, Will Sher. My father in law remembers that the two families would meet and have lunch together every December at a beautiful old restaurant in the city. My in law (who I never met, he died in 1985) was also a member of the Society of Illumination Engineers.
Lord Cob,
I doubt you’ve ever given your real name or email so you are safe from Nick’s nefarious scheme to sell you to slave traders. Look what happened to Joan Tunney-Wilkinson – one minute on holiday with her family in Norway then she posted on CM from the hotel (in the days of letter writing to CM) and ended up in Marseilles drugged up to her eyeballs.
If you need archive proof = com pelling evidence..
19/9/1885 The messenger Norway – “Pelling leaned forward and grabbed her hand”
I rest my case.
This was highly speculative research but I was trying to search out Joe Garvey thinking his trail would lead to Webb. The link was he seemed to be playing football with Leo Keane and he lived in Glenlyon street and he had some amazing cartoons with ‘Ginge’ apparently being one subject of his sketches. It made me think of Carl. Also his one with crosswords made me think Leo, Joe and Carl were like-minded chums with intellectual and sporting interests. I think Joe was involved in boxing, football and art. He also seemed to like letter writing and I suspect he had his own column in a newspaper which he used to promote his views using cartoons.
During WW2 he was in N. Africa writing home about boxing matches where people seemed to represent famous boxers with pseudonyms. For example, one soldier ‘Geo Webb’ was representing a German. Joe’s NAA file says he was
a commercial artist. But sometimes it is like looking at the crowd in a photograph and not the subject.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6138209
I also wondered why there were so many Geo Webbs – George Webbs around?
@Jo,
It is very strange she went to court to get the £1 10s based on her financial need but then didn’t need it. It was never going to pay her rent. Backdated he might have owed her £300. Why was he never arrested for non-payment of a court order?
Why did she not mention he owed her quite a lot of money?
Why did she not work during WW2 like most other young women. She said herself between her marriage and separation only 18 months.
If she had a work-limiting disease why did the judge only award her £1.10s it was not nearly enough to house, feed and clothe herself as a very sick woman.
We therefore have to assume she had some health condition that required her to visit the seaside in 1946 with her friends and perhaps to Somerton in 1948 or later.
The nearest I found in 1946:
“We live on a Farm, all timbered and very rough, which we have been gradually
clearing up and now after too much heavy work and not enough
rest my husband has suffered a breakdown in health and the doctor has ordered him away for a holiday which he hasn’t had for
10 years”
The strain of the pedicures I guess for Dorothy.
Personally, I think there was more to her illness and she was not telling the truth – for example she was pregnant and the judge awarded her money for the baby and not herself. If she got rid of baby Brenda to Roy’s wife then she couldn’t ask the court for the money. She had lost her need for support.
@ Jo and Poppins,
This book might have something about Brunswick Domestic Arts School.
https://find.slv.vic.gov.au/permalink/61SLV_INST/1sev8ar/alma9929983083607636
@David Morgan
I doubt if any slave traders would want me.
There is a team of us living in a non hippie/LGBT commune – Steve, Ann, Bob, me – and others pop in from time to time to help – Bob Dylan and Boney for example. Steve posts on Facebook under his real name and we all use his email address to contact Mr P to make things easier and totally “ship shape and Bristol fashion”.
The only Joan Tunney Wilkinson I can find is boxer Gene Tunney’s daughter who “was Joan Tunney Wilkinson (1939–2008) of San Francisco who…murdered her husband, Lynn Carter Wilkinson Jr.” (Wikipedia)
“LONDON, March 29—Gene Tunney’s 30‐year‐old daughter, Joan, was charged in Amersham today with the murder of her husband, Lynn Carter Wilkinson.
She is in custody and will appear before the Magistrate’s Court in nearby Chesham on Tuesday.
The Amersham police said that Mr. Wilkinson’s body, showing head injuries, had been found about 9 A.M. at his home at Chenies, a village near Amersham, which is 24 miles north of London. A police officer said Mr. Wilkinson was 31 years old and that Mrs. Wilkinson had been cooperating with the police in their inquiries today.
Gene Tunney, who is now 72 years old, was world heavy weight boxing champion from 1926 to 1928. His daughter married Mr. Wilkinson in Riverside, Calif., in March, 1961.
According to neighbors, the Wilkinsons had lived at Chenies for only a few months with their children, Alexandra, 5, and Erin, 3.
Last September Mr. Tunney announced that his daughter had been missing in Europe for more than a month and had failed to meet her husband in Hamburg as arranged.
The following month they were reunited in Marseilles following reports that she had been found wandering in the woods near that French port city.”
(NY Times 30 March 1970)
Later : “LONDON, June 12—Mrs. Joan Wilkinson, 30‐year‐old daughter of Gene Tunney, the former world heavyweight boxing champion, was ordered to be detained in Broadmoor, a hospital for insane criminals, by a court here today, after pleading guilty to charges of killing her husband, Lynn Carter Wilkinson, last March. The court heard evidence that Mrs. Wilkinson had suffered from schizophrenia for nine years.”
(NY Times 13 June 1970)
Funnily enough I am reading a book about Broadmoor at the moment!
It would be an incredible coincidence if there were two Joan Tunney Wilkinsons who disappeared and turned up in Marseilles, but the details you give are “19/9/1885 The messenger Norway – “Pelling leaned forward and grabbed her hand””.
According to the House of Names website: “The surname Pelling was first found in Lewes, Sussex where a Hammyng de Pellyng was on record in the Subsidy Rolls of Sussex in 1296.” There is a list of Contemporary Notables of the name Pelling (Post 1700). Top of the list is:
“Nick Pelling (b. 1964), British-born computer programmer and investigative writer, best known as the creator of the 1984 game Frak!”
The Pelling motto is “Deo ducente nil nocet” (When God leads nothing hurts). With contributors like Sanders, Bowes, your good self and my team he flamin’ well needs God to lead him – or maybe the devil!
@ Pat – I know one of the authors, Belinda. We were both involved in student politics in our younger days (not long after the Frak era!). She lives next door to a good friend of mine! I’ll see what she knows…
@ Poppins,
Just want to thank you for your post on Dec. 14, 2023, where you included a link to Trove with a pic that might be of Phyllis, Dorothy’s sister. I strongly believe that pic is of Phyllis. I put that Trove pic next to the pic of Dorothy’s mother with Phyllis as a child, and I see a lot of similarities!
I’d like to post the comparison pics I’ve made, but I’m not sure how to do this. Perhaps I need to create an account here or to link to an outside site somewhere?
In case I’m not able to post the comparison composite I’ve created, please note that both the pic of Alice Robertson with Phyllis as a child, and the pic in the Trove link, show the little girl with the same curly locks on the right side of her head close to her face. Those curls in both the Trove pic and the pic of Alice with Phyllis are also present on the left side of her face in the Trove pic, further suggesting that the two pics are of the same person and that she may have had curly ringlets (like Shirley Temple) or, at least, that she wore her hair that way.
Even more important is that both the pic in the Trove link and the pic of Alice Robertson show mouths which are very similar. Both are thin, jut out a bit on top, and turn up on one side rather charmingly. Those mouths are very distinctive and are nearly identical, IMHO!
Also similar in the two pics of the little girl is the somewhat short neck and squarish little body. (So adorable!). In the pic of the older girl, she looks a little less square, which would be expected, one could argue, if she’d grown and shed a bit of baby fat.
Phyllis looks like she might have been blond or had light-colored hair, which is interesting in light of the fact that one poster claimed to have spoken to someone in SA who said Dorothy was blond also. Not sure if the information is correct, of course, but it might be worth considering as we search for pics of Dorothy.
Thanks, again, Poppins, for your great research on this. Sorry to disagree with Jo, but I think Poppins has uncovered a valuable piece of the puzzle here, and that that pic — well-spotted on Trove — is indeed, of “our” Phyllis!
@Pat 1931 West Brunswick 26 Mincha Street “Overseer”, as per request JC Robertson.
https://dehanz.net.au/entries/home-economics-incl-domestic-science-domestic-arts-and-home-science/
There’s not a lot on Domestic Arts Schools- they are remembered quite ambivalently and were very much a working class schooling option tied to ideas of household management as a science and to twentieth century ideas of health, hygiene and child development. They didn’t offer clear articulation to further study. There are some good insights in this article.
The only mention I can find of Dorothy on the online archival Victorian pupil register is Poppins’ find for Swanson Street Geelong. I can’t see any mention of Phyllis.
The last Domestic Arts School was the Boyd School, which closed in 1985.
https://www.southbanklocalnews.com.au/my-days-as-a-school-teacher-at-boyd_4509/
@Lord Cob if you search nb.no you get the Norwegian details about Tunney. She was a missing person who was located in Marseilles. You can read the previews like I do. If dedicated you can forward search with the next phrase through the previews.
It shows how her happy family holiday retracing perhaps that of her parents turned sour. It is unknown how she ended up wandering in Marseilles. She also spent little time in a hospital and later remarried. One of her fellow inmates said she became a religious obsessive.
Her brother was also linked to the Kennedys. There is a lot of speculation about what he knew/when etc and I guess some conspiracy about how she knew the secrets and was drugged and kidnapped. If not it needs to be started..
@Pat,
Where your research discoveries meet in coincidence. Remember you researched Samuel Isaac Schulman the Juva-Tex (Bliss) face powder salesman linked to the 1970 Isdal Woman she cashed his Amex. Now you have Dorothy Robertson using/selling Cyclamax Romany Tan face powder (perhaps in the frock shop).
@ Curio,
Thanks! Do you think he could be the Jno C. Robertson living at 44 Rathdown Street in 1935 (as per Sands&Mac)?
Wouldn’t these pharmacies be a good place for Dorothy to start her career?
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic / Fri 21 Feb 1930 / Page 11 / FACTS ABOUT BALWYN: Business Names That Count.
Successful Woman Chemist
The progressiveness of Balwyn is exemplified in its chemist’s shop, run by a woman — Mrs E. L. Davoren, M.P.S.A. Mrs Davoren not only runs her attractive looking pharmacy, but is the sole maker of the well-known nerve tonic, “Neuro-Vim.” Although she has been in business in Balwyn only a few years, she has had 16 years’ experience as a chemist.
The Herald (Melbourne) / Wed 15 Jul 1936 / Page 15 / Advertising
Balwyn
E. L. DAVOREN 383 Whitehorse Road,
COOKE’S PHARMACY, Whitehorse and Balwyn Rds. E8.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244475520
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12087553
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244752782
Maybe also the Camberwell ones? Or J. Darcy (!) Sykes in Brunswick?
If the Robertsons had an average baby and it grew up it would look like:
https://imgur.com/a/tr09LmY
Of course it could be a boy or girl.
But if you wanted to find a face that was a doppelganger you’d look at the woman on the left. Amazing that in all of wiki Facial ID searching over 100s of years out of millions of images it found a Queensland face from 1918.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/StateLibQld_1_162235_Scott_Family.jpg
Very few of us are 50:50 children. Some of us are visually throwbacks to great grandparents.
By finding near matches and creating an average of them – this is a high score matching face to the average of her parents. it is nonsense science but a bit of fun!
https://imgur.com/a/qIPZA90
David Morgan: got Pat another J. C. Robertson; this one at 156 Balwyn Rd. in 1940 if you’d like to pass it on. Speaking of which, how’d the Pap smear go?
@ Poppins, @ Jo, @ Pat:
Here in the link below is the location of the Melbourne Church of England Girls’ Grammar School. This is where the Fancy Dress Party in which the girl named Phyllis Robertson in the Trove photo Poppins posted took place. The school was and still is located on Anderson St. in South Yarra. Note its extreme proximity to both Domain Rd. and Bromby St.
https://imgur.com/a/7k1nijP
The school was not just a Grammar School, but went up to the 12th grade also. It had boarders as well as day students. If Phyllis attended this school, I believe there’s a good possibility Dorothy did as well. My guess is their parents wanted them to be educated in girls’ only schools, which casts doubt in my mind that Dorothy attended Brunswick N-W State School. Brunswick N-W was a government school, and it appears to me that the Robertson’s may have wanted their girls in a Church of England school, if possible — Domestic Arts School notwithstanding, perhaps. (Remember Carl and Dorothy’s marriage certificate? They were both C. of E.)
If Phyllis attended the M.C.O.E.G.G.S. in South Yarra on Anderson St., which I think is likely if she went to the Fancy Dress Party there, then isn’t it also a possibility Dorothy went there as well? Both girls could have been boarding there, thus eliminating the need to attend a school within walking distance in Brunswick or Balwyn. And if Dorothy attended this school and graduated from there in 1937 or so, she might have been able to just walk from the school to the boarding house/apartments/former Truesst (sp?) residence on Domain Rd.
I also watched a video on YouTube someone shot recently while driving thru South Yarra, and on Domain Rd., not far from where Dorothy and Carl lived before they married, is a Botanical pharmacy that has been there for over 100 years. That pharmacy is someplace she might have been able to walk to as well from both Domain Rd. and Bromby St. See link below:
https://www.botanicalpharmacy.com.au/
@Pat 1931 Electoral Roll John Charles 44 Rathdown St M (no occupation shown) Carlton South, Melbourne
I noticed that the photo of Poppins’ little poppet, Phyllis Robertson of Melbourne Church of England Girls Grammar School, 1930, has been added to Dorothy’s sister Phyllis’ profile on Family Search. I agree that poppet looks very much like young Phyllis, however, socially and geographically I can’t see a match ie. South Yarra vs Brunswick, a fee paying middle/upper class girls’ school vs a family that can’t pay its debts out on a rural soldier settlement block.
It’s good to see other commenters on here and hope that we can enjoy a friendly debate. I’d be prepared to argue my case until I’m blue in the face. Does that make me a match for Lord Krishna?
@David Morgan I can produce a video of a lookalike Scottish woman wearing clothes of the period at the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cme4ma5pmIc
@JS,
My PET scan showed cancer in my oesophagus – stage 3 but not in other organs as yet. The planned UK strikes etc. are putting the NHS under pressure. I have to have radiography and chemo. Probably January to be realistic. Noddy Holder was in the news who had the same. He said he was stage 4 but has been clear for 5 years.
@curio – confused. I don’t believe people can say which child in a school photo is Dorothy or that she was even there on that day. I never appeared in any school photo of the rugby team I was in, by chance. Even if I used facial ID against a good known photo of her as an adult I would doubt I could get a 100% match. I might tend to believe one face was more likely.
Whereas the CD image of Leo’s 1943 wedding – is a stronger possibility as they were newly married and probably happier ‘with the Webb/Keane family’ and trying to fit in as a couple. We know he had a special relationship with the Keane’s because he had their stuff in his suitcase. Likely the American suit. I doubt he broke in to steal a white tie. It must have had special significance and they wanted him to remember it. Perhaps they wore white ties at Carl’s wedding. His sister had signed his wedding certificate so he didn’t have animosity with his family.
What convinces me it is Carl is the lack of his military uniform in 1943.
What I find strange about Dorothy is she took him to court for a £1.10s payment and then never pursued it for payment. It seems she just wanted him to be humiliated at work having the money deducted from his wages and sent to the court. She didn’t know the addresses of his family members like she had never sent them a Christmas card. If she really needed the money to live on she would have pursued it. By the time she had her divorce he owed her £100s. But she never mentioned it. Perhaps arriving in Lockyer’s Rolls Royce at the solicitors and asking for £1.10s might seem unfair.
He seems to have quit his job by 1947 which suggests he was no longer happy. It is curious he had no bank account with £1 in it or insurance policy which was never paid out. I find that hard to believe.
@ Curio,
Thanks! Much appreciated.
@ AT
Welcome to the conversation! I’ll leave it to you, Poppins and Jo. All I can do from this side of the pond is to search Trove and other online resources. Good point about boarding school!
Can anyone with acess to Ancestry check the name of the only child of Charles Edwin Williams and Marion Isabella Hall in the Baker/Hill family tree? I couldn’t find their child on Victoria BDM.
Marion Isabella was the youngest sister of Ernest Clarence Hall (Dorothy’s uncle married to Florence Olivia Stratford). She and her husband lived in Ballarat when Ernest Clarence died (1917), and at 37 Glen Iris Road, Camberwell, when Charles Edwin died in 1944.
They have attended Patricia Hall’s wedding and returned with Alice to Melbourne the same day by train. Camberwell and Balwyn are very close.
Thanks!
I suppose their only child died young, according to this bereavement notice.
BEREAVEMENTS.
WILLIAMS. Mr and Mrs C. E. Wil-
liams, of 79 Humffray street south
desire to thank their many kind
friends for telegrams, letters, cards,
and floral tributes received during
their recent sad bereavement; also the
M.U. Oddfellows’ Junior Lodge, Sun-
day school scholars, and playmates;
also to convey thanks to the Rev. T.
A. Colebrook, for his kindness and
sympathy, and to Messrs Jordan and
Tippett, for the efficient manner in
which they carried out the funeral
arrangements.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218534684?searchTerm=%22c.%20e.%20williams%22#
Early deaths have plagued the Williams family. All Charles’ sisters died young except for one, Mary Sophia.
“Mary’s parents moved together as a married couple from England to Victoria as unassisted migrants. They travelled on a ship called ‘King of Algeria’ and landed in Victoria in December 1857, in summer. BDM Victoria records show they had seven children together made up of five girls and two boys, all born in Ballarat. Mary was the only one of the five girls to survive childhood, with all of her four sisters dying as babies and toddlers at ages three, six, ten and eighteen months.”
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/237535147/mary-sophia-williams
@ Jo:
It looks like you read my post! Thank you so much for doing so! I’ve really appreciated your thoughts and ideas on this website. My theories about Carl and Dorothy are constantly evolving and changing, and I welcome yours. The challenge for me, and for all of us I think, is to just enjoy exploring and entertaining all the possibilities and not become too wedded to any one viewpoint. As we get more facts as time goes on, theories need to be updated and a lot of old ideas thrown out. At least a lot of mine have had to be tossed!
I wanted to let you know I’ve written to the archivist at Melbourne C. of E. Girls’ Grammar School in an effort to learn whether Phyllis and/or Dorothy were ever students there. I won’t hear back from her until the end of the month at the earliest, as school is out of session now. Perhaps you’re right and she’ll tell me neither girl was a student there. If so, hats off to you and I defer to your better judgement!
A couple of things that have been rattling around in the back of my mind are the following: I noticed on the Ancestry.com pages that it appears John Comber Robertson and Alice Stratford may have run a shop of some kind in Melbourne towards the end of WW1. It appears he was the manager there and that Alice worked there, too. This was before the they got married, I believe. (I want to double-check this to make sure I’m not misremembering things, so don’t hold me to this.) If it is true, tho’, I wonder if the couple weren’t more prosperous and enterprising than we know!
I also have the feeling Alice Stratford may have come from money. I seem to remember reading on this site that her family owned a hotel in Melbourne (?). I wonder if JCR didn’t “marry up.” It seems a common practice, both in England and Australia, that men would often do so in order to try and secure their financial futures. If he did “marry up” and Alice’s family had money, then perhaps her family provided the funds for the girls to be educated as “proper young ladies” at MCOEGGS. The photo of young Phyllis at the Fancy Dress Party in her elaborate and well-thought costume suggests as much. Those youngsters look very well-heeled to me! And this was in 1930 during the first years of the Depression!
Ancestry.com also indicates that JCR went to live at “Victorian Homes” in Brunswick/Royal Park as a caretaker or overseer. Apparently, it was a home for seniors and veterans of the war and those in need of housing. I’m wondering if his situation there was such that it would have been more conducive to have his girls at boarding school rather than on the property there with him. If (a big “if”, admittedly) Phyllis was a boarder at the MCOEGGS, then perhaps — if Alice’s family had money — they could have arranged to pay for the girl’s education there. There’s always scholarships, too, that might have been available. I think also — in light of the newspaper clipping posted about JCR’s encounter with a drunken inhabitant at Victorian Homes — that he might have felt his daughters would be safer or that it would be more appropriate for them to be living elsewhere, and that boarding school would be just the ticket.
I’ve also wanted to learn more about South Yarra and what kind of community it was. So I googled it and looked it up on Wikipedia. What I gleaned is that it’s considered one of the best, most affluent parts of Melbourne, if not THE best. The video I watched on YouTube showed beautiful architecture in the areas surrounding both the school and where Carl and Dorothy lived. Very historic, lovely terraced houses that suggest to me the area was very posh — at least at one time. (And your discovery of the Truesst homes attests to this!) I’ve also had a theory that Carl, who looked so dapper in the dinner photo taken at Swinburne, may have had very refined tastes and might have been drawn to only the best neighborhoods if he could afford to get into them. (This assumes, of course, that South Yarra wasn’t the only place single men and women could go to live in Melbourne, and that other areas of Melbourne didn’t consist of only or mostly single family homes more suitable for married couples with children.) In the Swinburne dinner photo, Carl is only one of maybe 2 or 3 wearing a jacket with satin lapels! I’ve also noticed that in the photo of him as class or school prefect with the button on his lapel (button suggests to me that he was the prefect) that his suit is well-tailored, unlike many of the other boys whose clothes in one other photo at least are wrinkled and ill-fitting. If I’m right and Carl had refined tastes and wanted to live in only the best neighborhood, perhaps part of his attraction to Dorothy was not only that she was employed and bringing in an income before they married, but also that she appeared to him to be well-bred and refined also. (Purely conjecture here, and perhaps not a factor in his decision to marry her; there are lots of other possible reasons for him to want to marry her, obviously, but after seeing the photo of Phyllis at the Fancy Dress Party, I’m revising some of my previously-held opinions to include this possibility now as well.) He did write poetry after all, so one would have to assume his sensibilities were somewhat refined anyway!
More later. Thanks again for responding! Looking forward to more of your thoughts later!
The answer is at hand to find out if the Dorothy or Phyllis attended the school, their records are outstanding. If a nominated researcher wants to fill in the form I’d be happy to go on your behalf to view records if you’re unable to, no worries, I’ve got plenty of time at the moment. School holidays are upon us, maybe Thursday last chance till next year …
https://directory.archivists.org.au/index.php/melbourne-girls-grammar-school-archives
@JS,
JK – as in Rowling.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205910930?searchTerm=%22balwyn%20road%22%2C%20robertson
David Morgan: couple more JCR addresses for Pat from a later period pre 50s
@1 Langdon Rd. Caulfield and 8 Marlton Cres., (Margaret Thomas St. Michaels CGS), St. Kilda, close to his WW2 32 Charnwood Rd. address that I’m sure I gave already.
@David Morgan A current Australian legal case based on the successful result of a case in Europe based on facial likeness against a King for paternity means likenesses are acceptable to judges in courts. See the FaceBook page of Simon Durante Day, as he is using likenesses in court for a paternity case.
@ Poppins,
Yes, I agree the form may need to be filled out. As noted in my response to Jo, I’ve written the archivist and am hoping she can answer my inquiry without my or someone else having to fill out the form. Perhaps I’ll try filling it out just in case the archivist tells me it’s necessary. I’ll have a look at it and see what kind of information is required. I think we have about 10 days or so before anything can be done anyway.
Thanks so much for your response, and for your kind offer of dropping it off. We’ll see how it goes. Thanks also for your great research! Can’t tell you how thrilled I am to have that pic of Phyllis!
@ Poppins – you could try asking the archivist to check the enrolment list first – that probably wouldn’t need a formal application to the principal, especially as both women are deceased. Then if there’s anything there you could make an application & go for a fossick! I’d just mention Dorothy Jean and Phyllis Robertson & the photo. I also live close to the school but would be limited in terms of school hours visits, If you do go to the school give me a hoi & I can give you a whirlwind tour of local SM sites!!
@ AT – I know the Botanical Pharmacy & area very well if there’s anything you’d like checking out. Some time ago I sent Nick a map with 14 different WWII signals intelligence sites marked in the local area! My familiarity with Charlie’s Bromby Street neighbourhood is what first got me started on all of this!!
@AT Good on ya, I hope it is Phyllis …. their archives sound fabulous, hey … so you should be able to get a definitive answer at some point soon. Fingers crossed. Lovely to have your input here, welcome.
David Morgan: Join the big C’s club mate. Still important stuff like the 156 Balwyn Rd. JC’s not being your well spotted JK the artichoke, according to NAA. I can well imagine there’s still more JC’s out there than you can poke a stick at incuding one from Nazareth by Jeeze?..PS: Stage three’s a breeze but still gotta keep your eye on them lymph nodes if you please..best of luck Dave.
@DavidMorgan, sorry to hear your news, hope everything works out for you and you get your treatment soon … hope the strikes don’t go ahead and they get things sorted some other way, hey. Far Far Away …. ah the memories, best ever Slade song, I remember when it came out, first pop song I ever loved! Still love it ….
Bit behind reading, catching up slowly, haven’t been able to sit at computer for long, been doin’ stuff.
@ AT – I hope you receive a reply from the archivist! I’ve also explored different ideas that have either stuck or become unstuck – especially my signals intelligence starting point (unstuck). South Yarra is beautiful and Carl & Dorothy’s apartment probably very little changed from when they lived there! The area is a mix of gorgeous old houses and apartments of every era – including some stunning art deco blocks. There are some surprisingly affordable rentals, many apartments have been held by the same owners/families for decades. It’s an older and quite socially mixed area with lots of fascinating history! Neighbouring Prahran, where Charlie worked and the Gaveys lived is a bit more gangsta with St Michael’s CofE school, where JCR worked as a caretaker later in his life, at the edge of Prahran/East St Kilda on Chapel Street, the major road.
Some of the theories//ideas that are still “live” for me are:
– involvement in horse racing/fixing (Sharon Cochrane),
– involvement in second hand car dealing/fixing with Prosper T (the Dude)
– involvement with Hickey Taylor, queer culture and misadventure/suicide (me)
– ether use and the ROK as a talisman (Steve).
I’m also open to the case having nothing to do with any of the above and enjoy simply being awed by the sleuthing efforts and archival searching skills of all on here!
@Curio,
In my discussion with the rocket scientist Colleen, I suggested that facial ID was a fact she would accept on her passport. She didn’t see it as a fact. Perhaps she envisaged it like a probability – i.e. there is a high probability it is you but not a fact it is you. I got Colleen angry when I suggested that Carl could have been one of 6 identical sextuplets. DNA wouldn’t tell us which one he was.
One reasonable analysis would be to use MS Azure to process a known image of Dorothy and check against a group photo to find a match. It is unlikely to score a hit but Betaface does similar and finds near matches. If an image was loaded to where betaface searches it could be used to check for a match. For example one good way is to validate a classmate. Then you know X child matches X adult.
Has anyone been able to determine which Dorothy Robertson was a debutante at the Camberwell Mayoral Ball?
I know it’s too posh for our Dorothy but… she was living at Balwyn and her aunt’s sister and brother-in-law, Mrs. and Mr. C. E. Williams were living at Camberwell.
There were other Dorothy Robertsons in the same age group and living around the area, Dorothy Daphne Robertson (Box Hill), Jean Dorothy Robertson (Ivanhoe).
Just curious…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149325004
@ Jo,
I meant to tell you how much I enjoyed viewing all the pics you posted awhile back of Red Point Tool Co. and of Charlie’s apartment on Bromby St. They’ve added so much to my understanding of the area! I envy you living in Melbourne. It must be so interesting to be able to walk by where Charlie and Doff lived and to see the environs they haunted! Melbourne does indeed look beautiful. So many picturesque parks and all so BIG! I think I’d feel like a tiny insignificant speck in such a vast country! I wonder sometimes if Charlie may have felt that way.
I ESPECIALLY want to thank you for posting a link to the Trove ad some time ago in which Red Point was advertising its need for a “strong personality” who could do drafting and the like. That ad gave me so much insight into Charlie’s character and was so much more relevant than the one Derek Abbott posted about that was printed in the paper a month or so before. Yours mentions drafting, and we know from the contents of Charlie’s suitcase that he was engaged in drafting. How clever you were to have found that ad! If only Derek Abbot were as diligent and persistent as you have been! Your ad helped corroborate some of what Dorothy wrote in her divorce affidavit. If it hadn’t been for your post, I might have remained dubious about some of her claims. After all, all we had to go on up until that point was her version of events, not Charlie’s, and she was obviously a woman in desperate need of a divorce due to the illegitimate child she was carrying!
One thing I discovered when researching M.C.O.E.G.G.S. (and also Melbourne Grammar School for boys, which is close by) is that one or both of them were also vacated during WW2 and used as barracks by the army. Lots of American servicemen floating around on those campuses as well! I imagined for a split second that Charlie could have been strolling thru one of those hallways and swiped the beautiful American-made jacket he was wearing when found on Somerton Beach (tho’ much more likely, of course, that it belonged to Jack Keane).
I wonder if the Botanical Pharmacy you’re familiar with on Domain Rd. might still have employment records from the 1930s and ’40s. A long shot, of course, as it’s probably changed hands since then, but might be worth asking if they still have those records somewhere? If I have time and can figure out how to contact them, maybe I’ll try and put the question to them.
Will let you know if I hear back from the archivist at M.C.O.E.G.G.S. That form gives me a little pause, as I don’t know what the privacy laws are regarding requests for student records from anyone other than the students themselves. I think it might be best to wait before filling out that form and submitting it until I hear back.
While I’m thinking of it, I’d love to ask you if you came across any info specific to the history of 274 Domain Rd. itself (where Charlie and Doff lived before they got married). I’d like to know more about the history of that building. I wonder, for example, if it was a boarding house or an apartment building, or perhaps even a “share house” of some kind. Did it ever belong to the Truesst family or did they only own the buildings adjacent to it? Did it cater to singles and if so, gay singles possibly? How on earth can we find out more about that building, I wonder . . .
@AT Maybe this rules our Phyllis Robertson out, unless there was another one there – this one was in Upper School, Cecilia’s House (there’s a clue) in 1931 and 1933. Not exactly sure what age you’d need to be though – preparatory school, middle school, upper school …….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242895346?searchTerm=upper%20school%20phyllis%20robertson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203354042?searchTerm=upper%20school%20phyllis%20robertson
Thanks @Jo …. hey, coincidence, I’ve lived in Domain Street South Yarra, Daly Street West Brunswick and Royal Parade, Parkville! Six degrees of suburb separation.
@Sanders if the John C Robertson writing the offensive letters wasn’t Dorothy’s Dad it would have to be someone born interstate or overseas – the Charlton one’s the wrong age, 19 and 7 months on 3/11/1915 – conditions apply, I can’t add up, pretty useless really, but don’t think that’d give you a 1894/95 birthdate. Can we have another instalment of your life story, a Christmas gift, per chance …. I’m piecing together the little snippets ….
@LordCoB …. I had a great stroll around Bristol, Bath, saw Cary Grant’s house with the plaque, the floating harbour …. love it! Magnificent …. street viewing is highly addictive …. Bristol and surrounds are truly lovely.
@Pat,
18 in 1938 – would be the right age for a debutante Dorothy. I keep saying she wants to be Lady Dorothy of Glenelg (perhaps).
Lady Dorothy of AI
https://imgur.com/a/d5wmD8L
Do you think Betty Reid chemist of Glenelg is Dorothy’s pal?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130324004?searchTerm=%22betty%20reid%22
Dorothy Robertson and Betty Reid appear in various articles as well as bag-pipers.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219757052?searchTerm=%22betty%20reid%22%2C%20%22dorothy%20robertson%22
Mr Reid (Betty’s dad) seems to have an obsession about chripody which is another good fit with Dorothy.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/36357137?searchTerm=%22c.a.m.%20reid%22
C.A.M. Reid giving a lecture on the elementary principles of radio’ in Jetty Road.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129715603?searchTerm=%22c.a.m.%20reid%22
You’d think CAM Reid was Dorothy and Carl’s best friend – he loves birds, chiropody, a chemist, radio.
Their mentor?
@Poppins…tell you the story about Jack and his Glory. Shall I begin it?..that’s all that’s in it!……Merry Christmas
someone should have a look at this file:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=22102380&isAv=N
To see whether CAM Reid was linked to ASIO or similar. He seems like some SAS type guy running a zoo, chemist, fruit seller.. knowledge of radio. Living in Glenelg – with a daughter potentially pals with Dorothy who loves to travel.
Was Dorothy working in CAM Reids chemist shop with Betty Reid – as the chemist – even in London?
@ Poppins,
In 1933, Phyllis would have been about age 8. I think this is too young for “Upper School,” don’t you? My guess is “Upper School” would be grades 9-12 (or about ages 15-18 or 14-17 or so), tho’ maybe it refers to another grouping of grades at Melbourne Girl’s Grammar School.
Those Trove articles are fascinating. What an impressive school it looks to be. Lots of emphasis on both Domestic Arts and careers for girls! Also, the furniture ads caught my eye. Interesting seeing what furniture was going for then, and what Charlie might have gotten when he sold all of his. Maybe he sold it to Pear’s on Chapel St. in Prahran! If those used prices are correct, I think he was pretty generous when he offered Doff £60 before she left!
Jo: coincidence most likely, but mention of your relative’s links to W. P. Sherr and the Association of Illuminating Engineers reminds me that the AIE held the SA part of their international symposium in Adelaide from around 30th November ’48 with guest of honour Sir Henry Tizard (Radar & UFOs).
@ JS – the Association of Illuminating Engineers certainly had their conference in Adelaide at the end of November and Henry Tizard was also in town giving a public lecture!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43793633?searchTerm=Henry%20Tizard
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129890521?searchTerm=Illuminating%20engineers
@ AT – Tristan Buesst bought 274 Domain Road in about 1936, with the intention of turning it into a family home, around the time he married Marie Mackinnon. It had been a private hospital- Osmington. I don’t think he ever lived there and sold it again fairly quickly. It was a boarding house “Gowan Brae” when Charlie and Doff lived there. Buesst had two other homes on Domain Road – 216 and 268.
https://www.picturevictoria.vic.gov.au/site/stonnington/miscellaneous/12044.html
https://www.domain.com.au/news/one-of-australias-most-opulent-heritage-homes-just-listed-1177923/
https://www.domain.com.au/property-profile/268-domain-road-south-yarra-vic-3141
If I was a fiction writer I would have made C.A.M. Reid = Carl Webb and Betty Reid his daughter = Dorothy Robertson. Then the plot would make sense – why Carl was in Glenelg, why Dorothy was in Adelaide and saying she was a chemist/chiropodist like her dad C.A.M. who was interested in birds and radio like Carl.
Has anyone got a picture of C.AM. Reid or his daughter Betty Reid? That might be an interesting facial ID check.
I look forward to any 75 year delayed release of gang crime police reports for the state of Victoria on 2nd January 2024 same as last January.
David Morgan: if you cross check the dates of your Trove items with contents thereof, you’ll find that the two Betty Reids were on opposite sides world and therefore not the same entity. Betty Lorna’s dad Colin Andrew McDonald Reid (1900-1964), shonky? chemist cum foot butcher 131 Anzac Hwy Glenelg had once been arrested on warrant for reasons unstated. That’s all I know God’s truth!
C1930 West Brunswick School Pupils
https://www.picturevictoria.vic.gov.au/site/moreland/miscellaneous/5932.html
@ Jo,
Do you have a link or any docs you could post about the 1936 sale of 274 Domain and its purchase by Buesst? (Sorry I mangled his name earlier.) I’d love to know more about Buesst , too, but perhaps I can find that with a google search, now that you’ve educated me with the correct spelling of his name!
Thank you so much for your kind reply!
@ Jo,
Just found an article written by Tristan Buesst in 1931. Maybe you’ve already seen it. Boy, could he write! I’m really taken by his prose. Makes me wonder if he and Charlie could have known each other. They seemed to have had similar sensibilities. One a poet, the other a writer, and both taken with the high life!
Here’s the article, in case you haven’t seen it:
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-383039138/view?sectionId=nla.obj-387006145&partId=nla.obj-383100109#page/n31/mode/1up
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword.phrase=274%20domain%20road
@ AT
There’s a detailed on line bio on Tristan Buesst mit portrait @ La Trobe Journal No. 80 Spring 2007. Wife Marie was no slouch when comes to spinning a good story either with her historical novel on early Melbourne ‘The Craigs of Collins Street’. If interested there’s plenty more on TNH’s even more famous older brother Aylmer who, apart from being a celebrated Richard Wagner conductor also recorded duos with American tenor Richard Crooks and other great artists of the pre war era.
@Pat Books available on North West Brunswick Primary https://merri-bek.spydus.com/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/WPAC/ALLENQ/49184802/248401,16
and Brunswick South West State School 50th anniversary https://merri-bek.spydus.com/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/WPAC/ALLENQ/49184802/232764,19
@Pat Oooh, that’s a good find, well done …. oh boy, there’s quite a few schools to choose from in the Brunswick area, hey …
@DavidMorgan, that link expired, I’d like to see it on NAA ….
@AT, yes that form also gave me pause too – what a great expression, love it, it gave me “what the heck is this” to behonest … my eyes glazed over at the “Position” , “sponsor” section ….. too tricky for me, I’d rather just go in a library or something anonymously really.
@Sanders thanks for the Christmas good wishes, and same to you …. h’mm, mystery still intact, Sanders … the man ….. from Vi et nam ….
I sometimes imagine you dancing to the Macarena after you do a post, and dancing out of the room with glee …. perhaps I’m losing my mind, but nonetheless, I find these thoughts mildly amusing. Cheers and good on ya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bclzcOe8VWg
@Lord CoB No that Carl Thompson born 1916 Gundaroo NSW was discussed as possibly being The Somerton Man and father of Robin. He might have served along side Prosper in WWII and even been a godfather to Robin.
Poppins: Sorry to be a party pooper mate but, I no longer dance, prance or advance except on wheels. As for them macaroonas, they be just a memory of days when I could chew chew chew til me draws dropped orf. Not complaining mind, saves on brushing.
@ Jo:
Why do you think the building looks so different today than it did in 1949? Surely the conversion to sale units that took place recently couldn’t have altered the roofline, windows, etc., THAT much, or could it? Here are comparison pics of then and now:
https://imgur.com/a/Jms19xT
https://imgur.com/a/DujvbnT
Below are some examples of units in the building that have been for sale recently. They look nice, don’t you think?
https://www.realestate.com.au/property/unit-1-274-domain-rd-south-yarra-vic-3141/
https://www.property.com.au/vic/south-yarra-3141/domain-rd/5-274-pid-4868431/
https://fletchers.net.au/24185/15-274-domain-road-south-yarra
https://www.belleproperty.com/listings/20-274-domain-road-south-yarra-vic-3141-WGOP2P69
@ JS:
Thanks for your response, too!
Yes, I noticed the bio on Tristan Buesst and found him fascinating. What an interesting, impressive life he led! Can’t wait to read the article he wrote about Moscow. Such a prolific writer, and such flowery — some would say “florid”— prose. In the Moscow article, he waxes poetic about the color red which made me think of the red slippers in Charlie’s suitcase!
I noticed, too, that Tristan’s mother was referred to as “Madame Buesst,” and that she was a concert pianist who loved music. I wondered if she had crossed paths with, or perhaps had been seen in concert by, Charlie’s brothers and sisters. They were all so musically inclined. So many possible connections in this story, but so little proof! Still, it’s fun to speculate, isn’t it?
@ Poppins:
Oh, you beat me to it! Haven’t had a chance to look at the form yet. Sounds daunting indeed! Glad you’re OK with my waiting a bit before attempting it. Fingers crossed the archivist doesn’t make me fill the dreaded thing out!
I wanted to let you know that I contacted the “Brunswick Community Historical Group,” which I found on YouTube, and had an email chat with them. I learned that some of the historical info that’s on the internet about the Brunswick Domestic Arts School and its subsequent name changes isn’t quite accurate. I believe it went thru 5 name changes is this order: 1) Brunswick Domestic Arts School (1925 thru1934); 2) Brunswick Girls’ School (1935-1949); 3) Brunswick Girls’ Secondary School (1949-1969); Brunswick Girls’ High School (1969-1976); and Brunswick East High School (1976-present or thereabouts) (co-ed). Phew! Gets confusing. Hope this concurs with your research as well.
I also asked that group about a book that’s for sale on their website. It’s a historical overview of the school from its earliest days to the present. The woman I emailed said she looked at the book for me and that most of what’s in it is about its recent incarnation as Brunswick East High School — not its earlier life. So disappointing!
I figure if Dorothy was at the Domestic Arts School in 1934, then she could have just stayed put when it changed its name and became Brunswick Girls’ School. She could have graduated from there as a senior if she’d continued on at the school after the name change. And since the Domestic Arts School was in existence from 1925-1934, she could have even been there before 1934 as well, eh?
@ AT
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword=Osmington%20buesst
Tristan Buesst purchased 274 Domain Road – “Osmington” in 1933 but probably never lived there. It was a private hospital at this time. In 1935 he moved into a house on Clowes Street, which is now part of Melbourne Girls Grammar School and later in the 1930s to 216 Domain Road, opposite “Cranleigh”, 225 Domain Road, which housed Central Bureau – the headquarters for signals intelligence, in WWII. Cranleigh and Osmington were both demolished in the post war era and there are now appartments on both sites. I don’t know if Buesst owned Osmington when it was the “Gowan Brae” boarding house, ie when Charlie & Doff lived there.
@AT,
His brother’s plot is interesting, He was arrested in London because he added umlauts to his name. I suspect his brother had to pull strings to get him out.
@JS – yes two CAM Reids. One the zookeeper with a daughter Beverly. The other with the chemist daughter Betty who had a chemists shop in London (apparently) then went on her Scando/Euro travels for a year or two.
I just thought CAM (Chemist) was the perfect fit for Carl – lecturing on radio and CAM (zookeeper) a perfect match for his bird watching. I could imagine Dorothy and Betty as perfect pals and her dad loving her interest in feet.
I searched CM and Feltus’ book and couldn’t find a mention of CAM Reid. Very strange when back in the day you were looking for a chemist with a ROK in his car and you didn’t know his name. CAM was the smartest chemist around and he had a daughter who was a chemist In Glenelg. Also, unbeknown to everyone SM’s wife was into feet like CAM.
Couple or three alternate addresses on Tristan for consideration:1934 102 Caroline St. Melb., 1953 5 Torisdale St., Toorak, & from then on to at least 1973 237 Domain Rd., though it seems the Buesst family including kids Melody (model) and Adrian (Buesst & Bills P/L?) spent an awful lot of time overseas.
@ JS – interestingly Tristan’s son, Nigel Buesst (b.1938), made a great documentary in 1969 – the Rise and Fall of Squizzy Taylor. It features talking head pieces from the Gavey’s lawyer – Eugene Gorman and also Norman McCance, who ran the newspaper bridge puzzles that Charlie responded to. There are so many random entanglements here!
@ Jo,
Osmington was demolished?! Oh, wow. How sad, and how stupid of me not to have realized that might have been a possibility! Seems unthinkable to have razed something so beautiful and historically important.
My limited understanding after my first read of the links you posted was that Buesst owned Osmington until it was sold in 1936, and that a company on Collins St. tried to sell it for him via private auction, but failed. I assumed a private owner or some entity picked it up, but perhaps, as you say, it never changed hands. Maybe Buesst did maintain ownership of it. Interesting thought! It might explain why the fundraising events appeared to be going on there in ’39 or so, as Mrs. Buesst seemed to be active in charity work. There are two people mentioned as hosting an “At Home” (not sure what that is, but I assume fundraising). I wondered if either or both of those people could be the new owners, but maybe they were just affiliated with the charities favored by Tristan’s wife. It might make sense that the Buessts still owned it and were holding fundraising events there because it was sold to the Crippled Children’s Home in ’49. I’m guessing Mrs. Buesst could have chosen to sell it to them if it was one of her preferred organizations.
If it was a boarding house that looked as it did in the ’49 pic and NOT the 2022 one, then Charlie and Doff were living in rooms in a very beautiful, large private mansion. A far cry from the flea-bitten “boarding house” I’ve been visualizing! Perhaps Gowan Brae or Cowan Brae was every bit as elegant as the buildings at Melbourne Girls’ Grammar School. Would that have made it even more of a draw for Doff if she or her sister had attended that school? It certainly would have felt very similar to the dorms if either had boarded there!
I wonder what the name Gowan or Cowan Brae refers to. I haven’t been able to find anything regarding the meaning of those words. Maybe you’ve found something?
@ David Morgan,
Sounds like the Buesst family has a more colorful history than I realized!
It was this coincidence about Gowan Brae that amazed me
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244588802?searchTerm=%22gowan%20brae%22%2C%20%22domain%20road%22
Ruth Harris – she may have become Ruth Sterling in 1945.
In 1937 she wrote:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/260979325?searchTerm=%22ruth%20harris%22
won:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/261432789?searchTerm=%22ruth%20harris%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/262121083?searchTerm=%22ruth%20harris%22
Pickerill Green was the 5th engineer on a steamer named Jason. It was still running around in the 1950s as part of the Blue Funnel Line.
and then when Gowan Brae sold it became a nurses home for the same.
@ David Morgan:
Did you read the 1st line of the 1st link you posted? I bet you missed it! Here’s what jumped out at me:
“. . . at Hamilton for the Fraser-Stewart wedding staying at the Grand Central are . . . Mr. and Mrs. J. Robertson.”
We don’t know if it’s the same Robertsons, but it does make one wonder . . .
Thank you for looking up Ruth Harris and W. Pickerill Green. Why didn’t I think of that?!
It looks like the Ruth you found was under age 16 in Sept. of 1937 when she wrote her essay, so she would have been about the same age when the “At Home” on Domain Rd. in took place in March of 1938. Maybe she was a little too young to be hosting such an event? I’m also wondering if she wasn’t so focused on writing about all things Jewish and Zionist-related that it would have been unlikely for her to also be involved with a Crippled Children’s organization. She was from Carlton which is on the other side of the river, so I’m thinking she may not have been connected to life in South Yarra or to charity events taking place there, and was instead more ensconced in the Jewish community.
While poking around on Trove awhile back, I came across an article that might interest you. It was written in ’31 but might still be relevant. It mentions a hotel in Adelaide where betting took place and says that telephones were installed in different parts of the hotel that facilitated covert illegal gambling. While I don’t think there’s a connection between Charlie and the hotel where Lockyer was later fined for gambling, it did make me wonder about the possibility of Charlie’s having installed phones in casinos on Russell St. or Lonsdale if he was, in fact, a nit keeper at one of them briefly. I’m afraid I don’t really think that’s likely either, tho’ I do ponder the possibility occasionally. (Apologies for the greyed-out part in the link below. Column on the right contains the relevant info.)
https://imgur.com/a/Pm2Asaw
Super-interesting 15-page article entitled, ‘”All found” they used to call it’: genteel boarding houses in early twentieth-century Melbourne.”
Author is Seamus O’Hanlon, professor at Australia’s Monash University.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44613323
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/43136108916791166/
(Creating a free account on JSTOR.org allows you to read the article for free online.)
It’s been awhile since I looked in on this page and I was intrigued to see some progress has been made in the search for Dorothy, particularly in regard to her schooling in Melbourne or Geelong and of course the possible photo of her at the wedding. At the start of this thread I note the Trove mentions of Dorothy in Mildura. Whilst some of these may relate to “our Dorothy”, I checked and found out there was a Dorothy Ida Robertson born in Mildura in 1921, with a sister, Trixie (died 1930), whom I suspect is the Dorothy Robertson in at least some of the Mildura mentions in Trove. Dorothy Ida married a George Francis Thompson in 1940.
What I found interesting in my searching was that I could find no trace of Dorothy in the Electoral Rolls from the time she was crossed out in 1950 in Melbourne. I could not find her mentioned in all of the SA Electoral Rolls I searched from 1950 to 1957 in the State Library in Adelaide on several visits earlier this year. In fact, I could not find Geoff Lockyer either. I looked for Dorothy under the surnames of Webb, Robertson and Lockyer. I can only think they were not registered even though I believe voting was compulsory. It would be strange if Dorothy never registered at all in later life in NSW so she is probably on the public record but under what name exactly I wonder. We might find eventually she was hiding in plain sight but under a different name perhaps. What a shame we can’t find and access her death certificate which would allow us to work backwards to fill in the missing 40 years of her life. I note there are a hell of a lot of “Dorothy Jean’s” listed on the Electoral Rolls on Ancestry, one of which might be ours, some of which I’ve ruled out, but will keep me busy checking slowly over the coming months!
@RichardD,
Yes, I often think ‘we’ are part of an intelligence scam. That Dorothy didn’t exist and the documents have been created to weave a story for people to research. It would be easy to create a wedding cert which shows Domain Road if you paste the signatures in of potential witnesses from their own wedding cert. It is strange there was no newspaper notice of the wedding especially as Dorothy was aspiring. A registry office wedding usually meant you were pregnant in those days as was judged for Leo. It would be interesting if their signatures are too perfect a match to other documents. It is strange the one posh place Domain road she lived in she forgot in her divorce doc. Though Bromby st wasn’t exactly living in the sewers. A very aspiring middle-class location with a photographer living in the shed.
Then mentions of Charlie Webb – always tacked on the end of newspaper items. Never in the middle. Has anyone seen newspaper originals in a library?
In fact, Leo’s wedding pic may be one ‘real’ item. It was the one newspapers didn’t show. Access to it was blocked for lengthy periods not because it was ‘on loan’. You have to wonder what was going on with it.
Perhaps Leo’s wedding cert has some real signatures – if the original can be found. Asking Carl to sign would seem reasonable if he was a close family friend that had the white tie of John or ‘Jerry’ his dad.
In the past researchers had to visit a library and find the originals. Digital allows governments to create fake histories. I was always doubtful that government officials would release documents that have 50-year rules. That you could even get to the high court judge past his admin. I tried and never got past the admin. Saying pretty please doesn’t get results.
I had contact with an archive in Basel and they were digitising and the one item I waited years to see they didn’t digitize. It turned out to be a New Year Card never sent. I thought it was property deeds. That in itself was strange because the card was being sent to the son of the person who was responsible for the original Basel archive. You would have thought it had historical significance to scan it. A card to the son of the founder of their archive. Perhaps they didn’t know their own history..
Aussie poet C.J. Dennis (one of so many!) This is how I like to think of Charlie. Happily scribbling away:
https://imgur.com/a/Zuefzf8
Merry Christmas everyone!🎄🎄
David Morgan: hate to bring it up once again but, how do we explain away the mess made of Dorothy in her alleged signature on the late posted copy of her marriage certificate?
@RichardD The Ryerson Index search of death notices and obituaries just using “Doff” in the first name returns interesting candidates for Dorothy, too. David Morgan and myself had found the online public search tools locked down records such as the Leo Keane’s marriage recording cover and the second record entry returned on searches for Dorothy’s birth (possibly a change of name). Still awaiting the Lockyer Perth family response to a request for information and photos.
& Curio and David Morgan
How is the access to Leo’s CD and Dorothy’s birth being blocked? I don’t understand what you’re saying.
@js
You mean the bit about not knowing whether it was D o r o in her signature. I wondered whether Carl and Dorothy had been a married couple in lodgings for years before their marriage. In a a similar way she was probably Mrs Lockyer in Somerton hotels.
So perhaps Carl was husband number 2 for Dorothy and she was using a different name signing in hotels like Daphne – so she went straight to a or something like that out of habit.
@AT… couple of C. J. Dennis snippets to remind us of SM.
As I rode in to Burrumbeet, I met a man with funny feet;
And when I paused to ask him why his feet were strange,
He rolled his eye and said the rain would spoil the wheat;
So I rode on to Burrumbeet.
As I road in to Ballarat, I met a man who wore no hat;
And, when I said he might take cold, he cried,
“The hills are quite as old as yonder plains, but not so flat.”
So I rode on to Ballarat.
.
@ JS,
Clever find! You did your homework! 🙂❣️❣️
If only CW had had CJ’s funny bone. Those funny feet might not have strolled into Somerton for that final snooze on the sand!
@Curio Yes the Ryerson Index does have some candidates as well. I’ll have a look at those at some point as well. When you say the online public search tools locked down records, what records exactly are these that you are talking about? Fingers crossed for a favourable reply from the Lockyer family in Perth.
@RichardD David Morgan talked about the Leo Keane wedding CD above being available then booked and locked. The Victorian public records online search of births for Dorothy Jean Robertson would occasionally show two returned lines then only one: I thought there may have been a change of name not available under the 100 years restriction rule hinted at by a second line (Deed Polls for change of name up to 1986 were allowed to be used to change a name in The Land Court searchable on the “prov” public search site).
@ Poppins,
Had another look at the adorable Trove pic you found of Phyllis. Am beginning to wonder now — in light of the 2 other Trove links you so brilliantly posted about an older-sounding Phyllis — if the cute girl in that pic isn’t just a tad too old to be “our” Phyllis. When I compare her pic with those of youngsters in the photos above and below, some of them look much smaller and closer to age five. I think you were right to be skeptical. As you so astutely pointed out, there are “probably lots of Phyllis Robertsons.” (Ancestry.com has at least 2 that could be the Phyllis in that pic.) Like you, I still hope it’s her, but am awfully doubtful now.
BTW, thank you for the warm “welcome” on Dec. 20. It’s great to be here! I’ve so enjoyed your superb research. Where on earth would we be without you?!
@RichardD,
About the CD that was locked to the public but not booked out.
I get considerable public interest on medium from this:
https://binreminded.medium.com/searching-for-the-1934-pyjama-girl-and-finding-the-face-of-the-1948-somerton-man-8f26065d5f2f
Yet no journalist has dared to write about it. I have written to a few who were interested in the Somerton Man a few months ago.
The possibility of scanning the image at high quality or tracking down the original would seem a realistic endeavor.
Personally, I just wanted to know about Leo’s interest in the ‘Pajama’ Girl, origin of the song and lyrics. Whether Carl’s college chum Vernon Lisle (Lisle Clegg) had been involved in writing the music with Leo – his work colleague on Sports radio.
https://www.australianmusiccentre.com.au/artist/lisle-vernon
In theory, it would be possible that Carl was ‘Ginger Quinn’ the killer of the Pyjama Girl using his sports car to take the body tied in a potato sack and that he was the son of the police chief Mackay. Where did Carl get the ginger hair from with German ancestry? Some people seem to suggest a link to Dorothy and bag pipes. Perhaps Dorothy was looking for a Scottish piper.
@David Morgan see the latest 75 year delayed release of information of a group of factory workers involved in a robbery and murder in Melbourne.
AT on January 2, 2024 at 11:24 pm said:
@ Pat, @ Poppins, @ Jo:
I contacted a researcher who has found a Dorothy Robertson registered at Fyansford School. I’m guessing this would be while she was very young and still living in Cundare North before moving to Geelong.
A list of the pupils at Fyansford appears to be available for a fee (probably between $20-40 or so, I’m guessing). If you think it’s worthwhile to obtain the pupil register for the school, let me know and I can either forward the researcher’s contact info to you or think about paying the fee myself. (I live in the U.S., so not sure how $ conversion rates come into the picture.) Fyansford pics don’t seem to come up on PictureVictoria.com, so not sure it’s worth it to pay the fee anyway.
Perhaps one or all of you have come across the info above and it’s old news, but I thought it was interesting.
_________________________________&&&&&&&&____________________________
@ AT,
Great find! Let us try to dig some more info before paying any fees, but I would contribute (not sure how from Brazil) if needs be.
By the way, I have just been contacted by someone from St. Arnaud’s Historical Society who is willing to work from home and dig some info on Charles Stratford/Wilhelmina Reither and Richard August Webb/Eliza Amelia Grace (Morris). They’re still figuring out the fee. I had contacted them by online form ages ago and had forgot about it!
Can someone post the exact wording of the electoral rolls availabe for Carl or Charles Webb?
Thanks!
@ Pat,
Glad you saw my post!
I agree we should hold off on paying any fees for now unless they become the only way we can determine whether she was enrolled at any of the schools.
I have emailed the researcher I found and asked if he could ascertain whether she was enrolled at any of the 3 most likely schools in Brunswick she might have been enrolled at. Hopefully, he gets back to me with an answer without more talk of fees!
The info you asked for about Carl/Charles in the electoral rolls is in the first link below. (Interesting that he appears as “Charles” and not “Carl” in at least one of those rolls.) Second link is how his name appears on Ancestry.com using his birth name. Hope this helps!
https://imgur.com/a/6fRmNXP
https://imgur.com/a/U86GO68
@AT,
Thanks, much appreciated! Do you have the electoral rolls for him in 1939?
Have you checked this website for the Fyansford School records?
https://www.grlc.vic.gov.au/glhc/heritage-centre
I think the Swanston Street School record found by Poppins says previous school was Cundare North so maybe it’s not Fyansford, but maybe the person who filled it out was just referring to previous residence?
Cundare North State School #1357
Swans Road
Cundare North VIC 3251
There’s only one building on Google Maps. Very desolate place.
Just thought that Mrs. D. Robertson living at 97 Payneham Rd, St Peters would be minutes away from Calvary Hospital and West Terrace General Cemetery…
@ Pat,
No electoral rolls listed for Carl/Charles or his father for 1939 on Ancestry that I could find. Most recent one was for 1937 with same info as the one I posted for ’36.
I looked at the website you so kindly posted the link for and found a book called, “Fyansford State School Rolls” available at the Geelong Heritage Center. Perhaps it contains the document Poppins found for Dorothy that has the Geelong and Cundare North schools info and is the one the researcher I contacted came across. Hope I’m not duplicating work already done by Poppins!
https://imgur.com/a/ViU1YOy
https://imgur.com/a/pA5z4XS
Cundare North appears to be miles away from Fyansford, and Fyansford appears to be almost next door to Geelong, so maybe the Fyansford book does contain the Geelong School pupil registers.
Wish I lived in Victoria. I’d pop in (like “Popp-ins”?) to the Geelong Heritage Centre and have a look myself!
@Pat.
When you accessed Leo’s CD on the site it was unavailable (blocked) where previously it was ‘out on loan’ and you had to wait for the return. When Stuart had it you could see it was on loan for several days/weeks. But then the library had made it unavailable for loan. I wanted someone to write down the exact lyrics of his Pajama Murders song just in case it was the SM code and Carl had made the lyrics up. The record might have had an intro which dated it “Hello my name is Leo Keane…blah blah just like JR’s Red Cross recording might start.
@ David Morgan,
The reason I have asked about Leo’s CD is because when I clicked many times the link that you have provided on your website it always says ‘available’.
https://find.slv.vic.gov.au/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9912564563607636&context=L&vid=61SLV_INST:SLV&lang=en&search_scope=slv_local&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=searchProfile&query=any,contains,gerald%20keane&offset=0
@ AT,
Have you tried submitting an online request? For some strange reason the online form is not available for me.
https://www.grlc.vic.gov.au/glhc/heritage-centre/contact-heritage-reading-room
I also wish I could take a nice trip to Geelong 😉
@ Pat,
Good idea! Have been emailing so many Aussie libraries and institutions lately tho’, it’s getting a little overwhelming!
Not sure which “online form” you’re referencing unless it’s the “Customer Feedback Form”? I did notice an invitation to contact the Centre via email, so I may try that. Still wondering, tho’, if I’m not duplicating Poppins’ efforts. Wish he/she could weigh in here and tell us where the Geelong school document came from. That way I’ll know my efforts won’t be in vain!
@ AT,
This link at the bottom of the page. It says online form, but it doesn’t work for me.
https://events.grlc.vic.gov.au/v/assets/665
You have no idea how many emails I’ve already sent to Aussies 😂 and even one old-fashioned letter to retired detective Gerald Feltus (no reply from most of them).
Life is short, but this is way more interesting than watching TV!
@ Pat,
Sorry, Pat, still not seeing your “form,” but no worries. I’ll just email them!
Just finishing up yet another one to an organization on my ever-growing list of them.
I have Gerry Feltus’ book. It’s my most prized possession at the moment. If only he’d come out of retirement and hold a seminar so we could bombard him with all our questions. He could charge admission and make a few pennies!
@AT & @Pat, I’ll head to the Prov Vic archives next week to see who the Dorothy is at Fyansford school, no worries, that’d be between 1925 and 1929, I guess? The one I found came from this wonderful site:
https://www.archivalaccessvictoria.com/indexes-tools-1
@DavidMorgan, I’ll check out that CD for you and see what those Pajama Girl lyrics are, etc.
Will have a look at the two North West Brunswick School books too.
All these requests have all been successful, wheeeeeeeeee
Happy New Year everyone!
@ Poppins,
Fantastic! You’re right about that website. It was thru them that I learned of Fyansford!
Maybe Fall 1926 to early Feb 1930? Am thinking she probably started school at age 6 (having turned 6 in July 2020). Long-shot, tho’: Maybe pre-school before ’26?
Thank you so much for offering to trek over to PROV. Best of luck to you there. Fingers crossed you strike gold!
A belated congrat’s to you, BTW, on your awesome find of D. at Geelong State School and Cundare North. You make me to want to dig til I drop!
Happy 2024 to you as well, Poppins! ❤️❣️
When the judge awarded Dorothy only £1 and 10s – if we look at the Glenelg maisonette of Prosper Thomson for rent for 25 shillings/week it shows he didn’t give her enough to live on in 1946/47. We therefore have to assume he was aware she was living rent-free with someone. Details like these seem to be missing from the file.
It seems a very strange small award. Judges usually offered a small amount like that for a baby.
@AT, sorry to say it’s not our Dorothy – this one was born 12/05/14, father Arthur a draughtsman. Was worth having a look nonetheless, easy to get to Prov.
The 50th and 75th Anniversary books for the North West Brunswick School had nothing to add to our searches – lots of reading and a few photos we’ve already seen. Ah well.
https://imgur.com/9bOAIg1
@DavidMorgan, I had a listen to the CD – it’s a parody, he sings it a cappella to the tune of Villa Rosa/Funiculi Funicula – quite catchy lyrics, but it’s really just something he’s done for fun – couldn’t hear all the words because it was quite crackly, but have written down what I could hear! Here’s the final line “so if you want to rid yourself, away(?) of strife and strain, just liquidate your wife and put the body down the drain” – haha, that’s the catchy line I can’t stop singing!
Back of CD:
https://imgur.com/4KqakAX
@ AT
Wrong Dorothy at Fyansford.
Jacqui from Geelong Regional Library Corporation has kindly sent me the photo of the book.
https://imgur.com/AKRTEHa.png
I thought it may be best to work backwards from chiropody with Dorothy. All logical approaches seem to have failed.
https://imgur.com/a/r5O3fSZ
@ Poppins, @ Pat,
Am sorry neither of you saw my previous posts. Seems we’ve been duplicating each others’ work! Those librarians at Geelong Library must think we’re nuts!
@ AT
I had already sent the email when you have posted, and no worries, we are nuts 😂
David Morgan: cut to the quick, Somerton Man had misformed toes according to Paul Lawson who said the big and little toes met to form an apex. The condition is can run in the family and most crossover formations be correctable by therapies performed by a chiropodist. Had Carl been so afflicated one might reasonably assume that his loving wife’s familiarity with clinodactyly would have resolved the
problem…Another nail in the coffin for our FB followers wouldn’t you not agree?
@ Poppins, @ Pat,
Which schools if any, besides Fyansford, have you emailed requesting pupil registers from?
I’ve contacted Brunswick South-West Primary, Brunswick West, and Brunswick Library but will pause my aerial bombing campaign until I’ve heard from you. Don’t want to drive these people completely over the edge! 🤪
@ AT ,
Keep bombarding them 😂 I haven’t contacted them , only Beaac Primary School, no reply.
@AT, I’ve emailed North West Primary twice but heard nothing back. They may be fascinated by you being in America, good luck, they’re certainly not fascinated with me. Good luck. If they say they have them onsite I can go and look, no worries, it’s not far away.
I did see your message about Fyansford but the archivist at Prov had already emailed me to say the archives had been retrieved and were ready to view (you get five days), that’s how it works. I haven’t contacted Geelong at all.
NEWSFLASH:
According to the Dept. of Education in East Melbourne, Dorothy and Phyllis were both enrolled at Brunswick South-West Primary!
Dorothy was enrolled from June 16, 1930 — Dec. 21, 1933.
Phyllis attended from Jan. 27, 1931 — Dec. 19, 1935.
@ Jo,
Thank you for pointing out this school as a likely candidate. Perhaps the hunt for pics just got a little easier!
@ Pat, @ Poppins:
So sorry I didn’t see your posts again until after I’d already posted the above. May be some sort of weird time delay because I’m in the US? Anyway, just wanted to thank you both for your replies, and for going off to PROV, Poppins. Much appreciated!
Hope you’re both as excited as I am we now know where D & P were in school. I was ecstatic and squealing and almost fell out of my chair when I got that email!
@ AT,
Brilliant! Thanks! 👏🏻👏🏻
@ Poppins,
Go after those photos, you’re THE photo hunter!
@ Jo
Thanks for sharing your knowledge about Victorian places! You’re our very own geoprofiler!
Here’s a screenshot of the email I was sent with Dorothy and Phyllis at Brunswick South-West Primary. Some parts have been obscured for privacy reasons:
https://imgur.com/a/kVa1v8s
Bottom line documents it’s from Brunswick South-West Primary:
https://imgur.com/a/p5Tva3w
@ AT – gosh, I’m very impressed by both you and the Department of Education! I had no idea that their records were so good, or that someone would respond! Well done!
This also means that Pat’s Trove find of a Dorothy Robertson at Brunswick School of Domestic Arts in 1934 is also more likely to be DJR!
@AT: In that case Doff would have finished her primary school education at age thirteen years and six months. Slow learner by the sound of it.
Does anyone have a Facebook account who would be willing to contact “Sue Rogerson” at the link below for Brunswick South-West Primary? She has posted photos of her mother’s class from 1933 and 1936 on the school’s alumni Facebook page and says her mother remembers a lot of the students there. Her mom was 96 years old in Oct. 1923, and may still be alive. Maybe she could ask her mother if she remembers Dorothy (who was at the school in ’33) and Phyllis (who was there in ’36)!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4109233292/
(Scroll down on the first page til you see Sue Rogerson’s name.)
https://imgur.com/a/Bk6K6hP
https://imgur.com/a/GJzTbe6
@ AT
I’ll try to contact Sue on FB, thanks!
Can I ask you if you’re willing to reply to that email and ask Emma for the girls’ previous and next school, which might be mentioned in the register?
Somerton Man: A New True Crime Musical
https://www.broadwayworld.com/off-off-broadway/article/The-Green-Room-42-To-Present-Stage-Debut-Of-SOMERTON-MAN-A-New-True-Crime-Musical-20240109
Correction:
2nd photo in link above dated ’36 is probably irrelevant! Phyllis was at S-W Primary til the end of ’35 and wasn’t there in ’36. Apologies!
Dorothy was probably there.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Wed 10 Sep 1930
Page 5
No title
FIGURE MARCHING AND FREEDOM EXERCISES. A spectacular calisthenic and athletic display was given yesterday by pupils of the South-West Brunswick training school, Victorian champions in physical training demonstration.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4189663
@AT, bravo! Magnificent find ….. this is fabulous, so do they have or know where the original pupil register is – agree with Pat, need to see that …. if Dorothy enrolled in June where had she been from March to June; at another school, or maybe suffering an illness, but seeing register could clear that up. Not sure what time of year the school photos were taken, need to check. So it can’t be Dorothy in that 1934 photo …. I would have bet the farm on it being her in the middle! Ah well.
@ Jo,
It’s thanks to you that my ridiculous fantasy of Charlie and Doff swanning around South Yarra as would-be aristocrats died a merciful early death! Can’t thank you enough for bringing me down to earth a bit and facing reality again. And yes, I think Pat’s find of DJR at Domestic Arts is probably correct. Thank goodness she found that Trove item. We wouldn’t be here now if she hadn’t! I think you’re right that it’s probably D at Domestic Arts. I’ve written to inquire, so hopefully we’ll know for sure soon!
@ JS,
I think as Jo pointed out above, that D probably went on to Domestic Arts school after being at South-West Primary. At least that’s how I see it for now.
@ Pat,
Awesome. Good luck with Sue! I think it might be helpful to point out to her that Dorothy was probably in the 1933 photo, that she was at the school from June 1930 – Dec. 1933, that she sometimes went by “Doff,” and that her sister Phyllis was there from ’31 and ’35 also. I’ve already replied to the email I posted screenshots of and asked for the info you suggested. Thanks for thinking of it! Can’t wait to look at your Trove link. Am gonna go do that now. Looks fascinating!
Thanks, everybody. You’re all awesome. Love you all!
@ Pat – does this remind you of an earlier discussion, where it was mooted that Charlie may have been involved in the physical culture movement of the 30s & 40s? Perhaps Dorothy was too. Their neighbour at Domain Road, Muriel Webber, daughter of the famous body builder Clarence Weber, was a physical culture teacher.
@AT excuse my greed, but it would be good if they could copy the pages from the register, not just the single entry for Dorothy, then we could see the names of others in her class, which could help in locating photos or more info. This is greedy Poppins signing off for now.
Possible Correction:
1933 Facebook photo from Brunswick S-W Primary appears to be labeled “Grade 1A.” Does this mean the students are ages 6 – 7? If so, then they’re too young! D would have been age 12-13 in 1933.
Perhaps D was there in grades 5 or 6 – 8, when she was ages 9/10 –13, from 1930 – ’33. Or have I miscalculated?
@ Pat,
If the above is correct, then I think it might help Sue Rogerson’s mother to know that neither D nor P were probably in those photos. Knowing the grades D was in, her age while there, and dates of attendance might help jog her memory, tho’. Maybe she has other photos, too?
Did we ever find out if this was our Dorothy Robertson? One of the debutantes listed there is Doris June Shilcock – she has an extensive record on NAA – born in 1921, same as Doff!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149325004?searchTerm=debutante%20dorothy%20robertson
Photos numbered 19 and 30 are from that debutantes ball in 1938 ….
https://boroondara.spydus.com/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/SET/WPAC/BIBENQ/20050193/48225728?NREC=20&NAVDIR=-1
I thought I’d share the results of some recent research – nothing earth shattering but it might be interesting to some.
Firstly, I was interested to check the Electoral Rolls for Elsternwick for 1949 to see if I could find who else was listed as living at 69 Murphy Street, being Dorothy’s last mention in Victoria that I am aware of.
Also listed at this address was: John (died 1983) and Jessie (died 1983) Campbell and their son, Alexander (born 1923 died 1968) and his wife, Enid Mary nee Wall (born 1922 Qld died 1979), married 1950. One child apparently, Marlene.
John, Jessie and Alexander were all born in Scotland.
One might assume Dorothy rented a room in their house. I don’t know if there was any particular link between them other than Dorothy paid rent/board to them for a period of time.
I also asked a researcher to see if they could find any death notices for Alice and John Robertson. None were found for Alice, but several were for John. The main family one states:
ROBERTSON, John Comber on Jan 8 (suddenly) at Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital. Loved husband of Alice (dec), loving father of Dorothy and Phyllis, loving father in law of Jim. Wonderful Pa of ……etc
Also tributes from the Curran and Crick families and the Wallaby Creek Gang (whatever that was!).
I had wondered whether there might be some detail that might have said something like “Dorothy (Sydney)” or similar. Anyway, it was worth a try.
Lastly, out of interest, I obtained a copy of Geoff Lockyer’s death certificate.
Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer
Retired Contractor
13 Nuytsia Place Greenwood WA
Age 57
Died 19/2/1976 at Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital
Cause: Cerebro vascular accident (1 day)
Athersclerosis (years)
Hypertension (years)
Contributory causes – Ischaemic heart disease, chronic airways disease (years)
Father: Alfred Malcolm Brooks Lockyer (farmer)
Mother: Olive Knapton
Conjugal condition: Married
Place of marriage: Prospect, South Australia
Name of person to whom married: Mary Humphrey
Children: Nil
Disposal of body: 21/2/1976 Crematorium, Karrakatta WA
What is interesting is that the Order Absolute for his divorce from Dorothy was dated 3rd November, 1955. And the very next day he gets married! (I, too got married in Prospect South Australia, but in 1993!)
It’s not difficult to imagine that Geoff most likely met Mary sometime before he started divorce proceedings, particularly bearing in mind what we know about Geoff’s history with women and that his marriage with Dorothy must have been strained for some time, as suggested in the allegation of Dorothy’s supposed “habitual cruelty”.
Very interesting!
@ Poppins,
Regarding the Mayoral Ball debutante, I have asked the same question a while ago but no answer.
Could you please share the photos via imgur? The website asks for a login.
Mr. Robertson was in Mildura with Mrs. Robertson, at least twice to make news.
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic.: 1920-1949) / Wed 17 Aug 1938 / Page 2 / Social notes
‘Guests at St. Ann’s Guest Hotel include: Mrs. and Mrs. Robertson, Mr. and Mrs. Munro, Mr. and Mrs. Paul, Mr. and Mrs. Ross, of Melbourne; Mrs. Bownman (senr.), Miss Bowman and Mrs. and Mrs. Bowman and family, of Dandenong.
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic.: 1920-1949) / Wed 22 Feb 1939 / Page 2 / Social notes
‘Mr. and Mrs. Robertson of Hawthorn are guest at St. Ann’s, Eighth Street.’
Three different addresses (Hawthorn, Balwyn and Camberwell) but I’m pretty sure that’s them. Perhaps, whoever wrote the notices didn’t have much knowledge of Melbourne’s suburbs.
All the other Robertsons mentioned are followed by a different place of residence, or initials (W. for Watson, B. for Bill, D. for Donald, etc).
@ Poppins,
Could you post those photos on imgur for us? Link takes us just to login page.
Thank you!
Mitch Whalmi (or anyone else with a Facebook account),
If you’re reading this, can you please ask Derek Abbott or someone in his group if they would be willing to ask Sue Rogerson on Facebook if an interview with her mother could be arranged? Time is of the essence due to her mother’s advanced age.
Thank you!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4109233292/
(Scroll down til you see Ms. Rogerson’s name.)
Wondering if Sgt Gerry F reads these blogs?
Gerry, are we looking for Charlie and Doff or Eddy and Doff?
Everything is one step further away, even the state to look.
Would love a shout from you, even if it has to be on the qt!
Supposing Doff was doing the 7 to 11 shift (manicurist) at the 24 hour GI clip joint next door (445) to the Australia Hotel in St kilda Road Sth Yarra in ’42. That’s when Pvt. Eddie Leonski the brown out strangler was active. After all the Red Hen Cafe had connections to Prosper & Queenie Thomson through the Yank/Kiwi owners and was only a five minute stroll from her pad in Bribey street?
@AT and @Pat, scroll down to the black box saying “Search our photographic collection” click on that then in the search bar type “debutantes” and it’ll be photos No.19 and No.30. You don’t need to log in, I didn’t. They have strict copyright rules so I might delete the fuzzy imgur I put in the wrong section lest it make them cranky.
https://www.boroondara.vic.gov.au/libraries/collections/local-and-family-history#collect
If Dorothy was at Brunswick Domestic Arts School in 1934-35, these are some of her potential classmates:
O. Firth – Moira Olive Firth (b. 1920, Wonthaggi or another O. Firth born outside Victoria)
M. Stanley – Marjorie Ada Winifred Stanley (b. 1920, Brunswick East)
P. Ross – Lois Patricia Ross (b. 1920, Richmond) or Patricia Ross (b. 1920, Bendigo)
P. Jackson – Catherine Peggy Jackson (b. 1921, South Melbourne) or Pauline Francis Jackson (b. 1921, Footscray) or Patricia Elizabeth Jackson (b. 1919, Prahran)
Nellie Hilda Dunkerton (b. 1920, Brunswick East)
C. Holden – Carol Priscilla Holden (b.1921, N. Carlton) or Beryl Constance Holden (b. 1921, Moonee Ponds)
G. Harratt – Gwenda Alice Harratt (b. 1921, Prahran)
Alan H….From memory Feltus ended his novel by laying claim to having a suspect, but was not prepared to name him. At the time Gerry resided close enough to the scene of the crime and undoubtedly lived it day to day upon his retirement from Sapol in 2004. I’m extremely interested to learn whether or not have had his hopes directed towards a certain George (nothing) Phillips, radio dealer and former long term resident of Somerton Beach. So if the old Detective isn’t too busy, perhaps he might concede to break his long silence and coming to the party while the iron is still warmish.
Nellie’s story is like a work of fiction
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116600692?searchTerm=%22Nellie%20Dunkerton%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243252155?searchTerm=%22Nellie%20Dunkerton%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243249560?searchTerm=%22Nellie%20Dunkerton%22
Carl Holden was only a B Grade star winning only 3 events per week. Appalling. I hope her dad punched the journalist.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243268879?searchTerm=%22Carol%20Holden%22
Marjorie Stanley’s address
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243319469?searchTerm=%22Marjorie%20Stanley%22
Carl should have liked Pauline as she was the bridge party organiser.
Strange that Dorothy never gets to go to the ball.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205195759?searchTerm=%22Pauline%20Jackson%22
Could I also ask a couple of things please?
1) has any of the travellers in this journey located any DNA results in a tree at or below Robertson/Comber-Stratford/Reither level? (No matter how strange or distant)
2) were caucasian children included in the stolen generation collection?
Thnx.
JohnS:- you may have misread my other comment, Ida from Kadina Phillips but George from Adelaide Phillips via Fremantle Phillips making defacto Ida :- Ida Phillips Phillips.
@ Poppins,
Your directions were flawless. Thank you for making it so easy! I must say I’m intrigued. The age of the girls is certainly correct. Now if only we could find a list of their names (and maybe some software to sharpen those fuzzy fotos)!
———
@ Pat,
Where on earth did you find all those girls? Wow, I must say you and Poppins amaze me with your eye poppingly–prolific research hauls! Were all these girls living in Brunswick when D was?
BTW, I’ve been very taken lately with your excellent find of Mrs. E. L. Davoren, M.P.S.A. I wonder if those last 3 initials could stand for “Pharmaceutical Society of Australia”? Don’t know what the “M” could stand for, tho’. “Master of” something, maybe? I’ve read that some Australians went to England for training, so perhaps those letters are a British designation of qualifications. She would have been in England probably in the ‘20s if she were there — maybe before training centers began to pop up like mad in ‘30s Australia. Wish she knew more about her. Sounds like she could have been an excellent mentor for D!
Alan H. actually I’m pretty well up on all your George Phillips’ of Glandore, Kadina and the horse doper late of Gawler, none being related to my upper crust Masons from Somerton.
@AT,
The Brunswick young women don’t seem very loyal to each other. You imagine they would be in school together then work together and play together but there seems to be very little cross-over of people at parties or events. Dorothy didn’t seem to make any friends very much like Carl. Two loners meet. Amazing they even spoke with each other. Then they both seemed to realise when married they wanted to be alone.
@AT Bad time of year if last year is a guide: he will be away with family over the Australian long school break this year from a week before Christmas till end of January 2024.
@ AT,
Those girls have been mentioned in the newspapers (Trove) as students of Brunswick Domestic Arts School, winning sports competitions in 1934 and 1935.
I just looked at Victoria Births, Deaths and Marriages for girls with their surnames and initials born between 1919-1921.
Of course some of them could have been born somewhere else.
The only ones I’m pretty sure are Marjorie Stanley (I’ll post about her later), Gwenda Alice, because of her unusual surname (Harratt), and Nellie who has been in the headlines a few times (links posted by David Morgan).
@Pat,
Did you find it strange that attractive (assumed) Dorothy wasn’t invited to events or was a very minor player that journalists didn’t notice. She didn’t even sell sweets at charity events, run in races, play an instrument or pass exams. The only hope is the Scottish dancing. You have to wonder whether older Carl was after a young schoolgirl or she liked older wealthy men.
Patrisca: you think Marjorie be could be older sister of Allen David Stanley what bought the vacant block near the methodist church in Alta Mira Crescent Belair. Can hardly wait for your follow up post with the link. Could it be the key to case closure at long last and might we ask misca if she agrees?
@ Pat,
Oh, very clever of you. Wish I’d thought of it!
I’ve been trying to locate Sue R. and her mother on Ancestry, but your gaggle of gals might be a better bet. Maybe they or their descendants are on Facebook, and have a few old pics tucked away somewhere!
Let me know if I can look any of them up on Ancestry for you.
Great work as always!
Correction: Gwenda Alice May Harratt and O. Firth were from Richmond Domestic Arts, not Brunswick Domestic Arts.
@ David Morgan,
Sorry I didn’t see your comment earlier. Am still learning how to navigate this website!
I’m not sure we can conclude that the Brunswick schoolgirls weren’t pals if we can’t find evidence of it on Trove. I think that what makes it into the papers is just of fraction of the truth, and that it offers us only glimpses of reality, not the whole picture, unfortunately.
You could be right that D & C were both loners, but I tend to think D was more gregarious than C. She referenced having “guests” over to play cards, and it seems she met Geoff Lockyer pretty quickly after leaving Charlie. That suggests to me she was out and about and meeting other people somehow — possibly in bars, since that’s apparently where Lockyer met some of the women he associated with. In her divorce affidavit, she describes going to the movies w/friends and on holiday w/other(s), and says Charlie had “few friends.” This leads me to believe C was right in telling her they weren’t “well-suited” to one another. Charlie sounds to me like a loner who probably needed quiet time to write, but I think D could have been the opposite. Maybe that was part of the problem between the two of them. Just my opinion tho’, FWIW.
Another potencial classmate, Clarice Esther Williams, b. 1920, Hotham West.
She won an Emily McPherson Scholarship in 1936.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205250691
Alan H…Phillips sibs George?, James, Margaret and Merran, born to Doug & Dora of Norwood (later Somerton) be as one in that I’ve not been able to trace their early formative years or as teenagers attending schools in S.A., this despite knowledge that both boys were qualified radio engineers by the mid 1920s and in the wireless trade. By the mid 30s poor lovely Merran had passed with her father following not long after and needs to be said that neither had anything in the way of ceremony or memorial apart from individual slams with a name and a lot of left over space. For such a really well to do family seems really weird and even more so with later uneventful home lives of Jim and especially G. for George, though at least Jim had
hooked up with Nan by ’34 (no kids she had three Ernie) and as you will be aware poor feller died during the war in Albury where at least he scored a decent burial. As for his brother, he had up and disappeared from his pad at 21 Bickford Tce. by ’48 according to S & Mc. street Index, though still listed in the Alphabetical section til 1952 (typical oversite). You might feel inclined to follow up, though I dare say that will be all the help you might expect.
@AT MPSA but now simplly PSA = Member Pharmaceutical Society of Australia Don’t know when they discontinued with the ‘M’ prefix.
@ JS,
Very good! Thank you for solving that mystery. Pat will be glad to know, no doubt, if she doesn’t already. I wonder how much weight those initials carry. Maybe not much?
@ Pat,
It looks to me as tho’ G. Harratt and O. Firth were, in fact, at Domestic Arts. Not sure why you’re doubting yourself (?).
G. Harratt looks like an especially interesting find, as she appeared to be not only a runner like the other girls you found, competing in races just as D had, but was also the same age as D and possibly in the very same class! All 3 girls in the clippings below look promising to me. Great find, IMO!
https://imgur.com/a/VgyvV6S
Alan H…there be another sib John Francis who I’ve found listed as such on sister Margaret Jean Campbell Ledger’s Myheritage slot, but nowhere else; not to be confused with the papist JFP born Broken Hill 1906 and buried 1990 Mitcham.
Interesting…
Remember Ramsay’s chemist shop at 8th Street, Mildura, where Miss Robertson in her Romany Tan make-up was supposed to be interviewed for a position in 1939?
By 1940 Ramsay was no more. The shop was under Mr. K. L. Gedge’s management.
The other chemist shop at Deakin Avenue was owned by J. A. Jenkins (who was the original owner of the 8th St. shop when Ramsay, of Melbourne, assumed it in 1927).
By 1940 Gedge’s chemist shop was advertising ‘our Fully Qualified Foot Specialist’.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268807658?searchTerm=%22gedge%22%20%22eighth%20street%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/263650400?searchTerm=%22ramsay%22%20%22eighth%20street%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268808911?searchTerm=%22gedge%22%20%22eighth%20street%22#
JohnS:- yes, thanks John. The name is like the forerunner of the smiley face badge where everyone got given it at the entrance gate of the Adelaide Show. And like the smiley face badge, we don’t know where every last one ended up or when.
I’ve emailed the library to see if there’s a clearer photo onsite of the debutantes or if there’s more info on the photo. I’d say it’s our Dorothy, I think you had to do your deb in the district you were living in, so Camberwell would be spot on for Doff. The imgur has three of the debutantes pics…. it’s easy to pick out Nancy Echberg, she is third from the left, second row – process of elimination ……. and then there were 15 Dorothy candidates.
https://imgur.com/x1b6ryT
NAA file: Shirley Rudd had brown eyes, brown hair, dark complexion – 5ft4 born 1921
https://boroondara.spydus.com/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/ENQ/WPAC/BIBENQ?ENTRY=debutante+balls+–+victoria+–+camberwell&ENTRY_NAME=BS&ENTRY_TYPE=K&SORTS=SQL_REL_BIB&GQ=debutante+balls+–+victoria+–+camberwell&NRECS=20&QRY=&QRYTEXT=Full+catalogue&_SPQ=2
Whoops, forgot to add, do you think Carl could be in the photo with the partner’s – on the far right?
@ AT,
There were many Domestic Arts Schools in different suburbs of Melbourne. I’m quite certain that Gwenda Harratt was at Richmond Domestic Arts.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203832659?searchTerm=%22gwenda%20harratt%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204291947?searchTerm=%22gwenda%20harratt%22#
That clipping you have posted is from a combined state schools sports. In other instances the newspaper has identified the school by different initials, (BDA for Brunswick Dom Arts) but in this case they seemed to have forgotten to differentiate them.
@ Poppins,
I doubt Carls is in that debutantes’ ball photo, he was 32 in 1938, but I also think that Dorothy could be one of them, because her mother attended Patricia Hall’s wedding in Mildura along with Mr. and Mrs. Williams, of Camberwell.
Marion Isabella was the youngest sister of Ernest Clarence Hall (Dorothy’s uncle married to Florence Olivia Stratford). She and her husband lived in Ballarat when Ernest Clarence died (1917), and at 37 Glen Iris Road, Camberwell, when Charles Edwin died in 1944.
They have attended Patricia Hall’s wedding and returned with Alice to Melbourne the same day by train.
Pat on November 26, 2023 at 3:04 pm said:
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic. : 1920 – 1942)
Wed 26 Apr 1939
Page 3
Social notes
Mr. and Mrs. Charles Williams, of
Camberwell, MRS. JOHN ROBERTSON, OF
BALWYN, and Messrs. A. Johnson, of
Ballarat, and A. Grant, of Melbourne,
have all returned after being guests
at the Johnson-Hall wedding.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268784192
Pat on December 20, 2023 at 4:48 pm said:
Has anyone been able to determine which Dorothy Robertson was a debutante at the Camberwell Mayoral Ball?
I know it’s too posh for our Dorothy but… she was living at Balwyn and her aunt’s sister and brother-in-law, Mrs. and Mr. C. E. Williams were living at Camberwell.
There were other Dorothy Robertsons in the same age group and living around the area, Dorothy Daphne Robertson (Box Hill), Jean Dorothy Robertson (Ivanhoe).
Just curious…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149325004
Has anyone been able to locate Miss Thelma Scott who was the bridesmaid at Phillys Robertson’s marriage on 7 Sep 1946?
I have been wondering… if Phyllis didn’t go to Darwin with her parents in 1940, Miss Thelma Scott’s whereabouts could give us some clues.
I doubt that Dorothy went to Darwin, so that’s why she probably had to move to boarding house Gowan Brae at 274 Domain Road, South Yarra.
Maybe that’s where she met Carl, when he had to move from 226 Glenlyon Road, where the Keanes were living for a short period?
I have been assuming that they moved together to 274 Domain Road, but now I’ve realised they could have been living at different rooms, which would be more appropriate!
David Morgan on January 14, 2024 at 10:35 pm said:
@Pat,
Did you find it strange that attractive (assumed) Dorothy wasn’t invited to events or was a very minor player that journalists didn’t notice. She didn’t even sell sweets at charity events, run in races, play an instrument or pass exams. The only hope is the Scottish dancing. You have to wonder whether older Carl was after a young schoolgirl or she liked older wealthy men.
@ David Morgan,
I think Dorothy’s precarious social life reflects her father’s erratic employment efforts.
Her parents married in Mildura in 1919, moved to Ballarat (John Comber’s family estate) where she was born in 1920.
They tried their hand at dairy farming in Cundare North (a very remote place) for about 9 years.
They moved to John Comber’s brother-in-law’s house in Geelong for a short period in 1930, and Dorothy had to change schools when they moved to Brunswick West.
In 1936 they moved again, this time to Balwyn, where Dorothy was surrounded by fashionable people, including her father’s employer, Oliver Gilpin.
And the nail in the coffin came with World War II and her parents moving to Darwin, just when she was at the ‘right’ age to get married.
John Comber’s career as an overseer/caretaker led him to anywhere he could find a job and a place to live. This meant an erratic life for young Dorothy.
@Pat,
It could be Carl and Dorothy were flat-sharing with their own pals in Domain road.
@ Pat,
Good catch! Sorry for the interruption. Thanks for explaining. Really stellar work as always!
Pat: Jack was not accompanied by his wife to Darwin (Alice Springs) as shown in his NAA service records. So looks like Phyllis stayed home which sadly leaves us at a loss for the chance of extended commentary..
@ Pat
Plus Carl timed getting married very nicely and avoided having to join the war effort.
Pat: There is a Thelma Phyllis Scott on the NAA site. DOB: 31 Jul 1922, apparently married to a M.W. Petrie. Same person?
Allan H. Yes indeed, including a missing tooler late of South Yarra; last seen at his lousy job in a factory making fine adjustments on an electric drill chuck. Must have been many instances where badly used toilers mostly husbands got fed up with their lot and simply flew the roost to parts unknown, never to be seen again dead or alive, sorta like Carl Webb…Speaking of missing persons eg., George Phillips, a phony retired US 7th Fleet Naval Commander name of Maurice P. C. Bellemans along with brother Arthur (maritime seamen) showed up in Adelaide aboard MV Charon ex Singapore September ’48; All cashed up and stayed put far as I know. Be of any help to you, gave us a holler.
I heard back from a wonderful librarian named Tom and he sent me two high resolution photos of the debutantes, it’s heaps clearer! And they’re looking into seeing if there’s any further details on the seating arrangements in the photo, or other info but it could take time …. we know the names at least from the newspaper article.
I was advised that as these are taken pre-1955 they are out of copyright we can use them, although if they are used the photographer Stuart Tompkins should be acknowledged as the photographer. Thanks for the great pics Stuart Tompkins.
https://imgur.com/L0oe9Np
https://imgur.com/GlGUr0u
VERIFICATION OF DOROTHY’S ENROLLMENT AT BRUNSWICK DOMESTIC ARTS SCHOOL:
https://imgur.com/a/OheD4Uk
From book about school’s history referenced in link above:
https://imgur.com/a/R0hRhbw
Sharon Cochrane: Wondering if any of the Dorothy FB hunters ever checked out my posted SB baby Webb from Carlton (Womens Hospital?) of circa. 1944. Certainly fits the place and place frame along with her later Doff’s tragic SB birth of 1951.
@ Pat, @ Poppins,
Re Deb’s ball photo and article:
I noticed the article lists the women’s names in alphabetical order. D’s name appears as #9. My guess is the women are arranged very deliberately in the photo— perhaps from top to bottom, left to right, or from bottom to top and left to right. This is the order we read in, so it would make sense to arrange the women this way. If so, then perhaps D is in the bottom row at far left (or maybe the top row far left).
So great to have those photos, Poppins. Thank you! What a world of difference they make! Thank you too, Pat, for the article. Yet another awesome find!
@ Poppins,
Brilliant! Fingers crossed! Thanks Stuart Tompkins!
@ Clive
Thanks! I was expecting someone younger, born around the same time as Phyllis, 1925… and Thelma Phyllis Scott married Malcom William Petrie in NSW in 1944, so in 1946 she was no longer Miss Thelma Scott.
https://imgur.com/a/3cC3U4b
@Pat,
Gedge was heavily involved with the Red Cross. It may be a direction to search.
I think debutante Dorothy Robertson could be Dorothy Daphne Robertson, b. 1921, Box Hill, daughter of Percy William Robertson and Dorothy Mabel Moore, of Game St., Blackburn.
She married Douglas Hereward Swain in 1941 and they lived at Beach Street, Seaholme (Douglas’ NAA file)
I’ve found his military photos; is he in the debutante ball photo?
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C269917
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C269918
@ Poppins – nice work! If Dorothy is there amongst the debutants, there’s one in particular who would fit the nickname of “Blondy” as per Richard D’s sleuthing in Bute!
@Pat, yes, you spotted the debutantes a long time ago, most excellent …. the penny just dropped with me that it has to be her …. always been slow to catch on. To be a debutante you just had to send a letter to the town clerk requesting attendance.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206741122?searchTerm=camberwell%20debutante
Doris Shilcock is in this poster – I think she’s the one sitting next to Mrs Warner …. do you reckon? And the field of Dorothy’s has been narrowed down to 14?
https://imgur.com/tYeSY9i
A better comparison photo of Doris from the NAA file. Same hairline, yep, I’d say it’s the girl next to Mrs Warner.
https://imgur.com/CypNWt3
@ Pat,
Re “I have been assuming that they moved together to 274 Domain Road, but now I’ve realised they could have been living at different rooms, which would be more appropriate!”:
— The link below made me wonder if Gowan Brae was the kind of place where young, single people went to live after leaving home and where engagements often resulted. Maybe the ability to meet others of the opposite sex was part of its appeal. It would have been more affordable than living on one’s own in a flat, as there was probably a shared kitchen(s) and maybe also rooms shared by members of the same sex. It would have been an easy way for young, working unmarrieds to meet and get engaged, but probably wasn’t desirable long-term due to lack of privacy. This could have prompted people to get engaged and move out.
https://imgur.com/a/1V8Bcpq
Re “I doubt that Dorothy went to Darwin, so that’s why she probably had to move to boarding house Gowan Brae at 274 Domain Road, South Yarra”:
— Interesting take. Do we know when her father left for Darwin? Seems to me it was mid-40s. Weren’t he and Alice making munitions in North Melbourne just after WW2 began? I thought that Alice (and possibly Phyllis, too) were living in St. Kilda by the mid-40s (?) and that that’s where her father hung his hat when visiting from Darwin. D could have gone to Gowan Brae after she turned 18, was employed, and it was time to leave home. If it was a place to meet and get married, that could have been a draw, too.
I came across an ad for a rental in the 40s which said, “No unmarried men.” Maybe single males were considered undesirable tenants because it was felt they were likely to drink, bring women home, and cause noise. They might also have been suspected of being homosexual which was deemed a “sickness” then and was still illegal. If this kind of bias existed, it could have been part of the reason C found it necessary to get married regardless of whether he was or wasn’t homosexual. The possibility of finding a marriage partner might have been part of what drew him to Gowan Brae, and marriage to D could have been motivated — in part at least — by economic reasons as well as rental biases on the part of landlords.
BTW, I think Charlie might have played pool at GB with the pool cue he was later trying to sell. Many private (or formerly private) homes had billiard rooms.
@ Nick Pelling (or whoever is moderating this site):
Would you please consider foregoing the “moderation” that causes delays in our posts going live? Those delays are causing unnecessary time in writing posts that quickly become irrelevant or outdated, and are causing a lot of confusion. Don’t you think we’re well-behaved enough here that you can dispense with moderation and simply allow the posts to be mounted in real time, thus avoiding those confusion-causing delays? If there were problems with unruly posters in the past, perhaps they’ve been resolved?
@ AT
Brilliant! Maybe Dorothy put chiropody/pharmacy aside while she was pregnant in Adelaide and had a Domestic Arts revival by opening Dooreen Frocks, haha.
@ Poppins,
Kudos to THE photo hunter! 14 to go…
Meanwhile… have you already searched for First Constable Coleman who knew Carl personally and had a cuppa after being called by Dorothy in June 1946 (as per her divorce affidavit)?
Maybe he is Constable F. Coleman who was transferred from St. Kilda to St. Arnaud and from St. Arnaud to St. Kilda!
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Thu 26 Mar 1936
Page 7
ARARAT
Mounted-constable Coleman of St Kilda
road has been transferred to St Arnaud
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11023734?searchTerm=%22constable%20coleman%22#
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Thu 4 May 1939
Page 14
CONSTABLE TRANSFERRED
ST. ARNAUD. — First Mounted-constable
F. Coleman, after a term of six years, has
been transferred to the police remount
depot at St. Kilda. Mounted-constable
G. F. Hamilton, of the depot, will fill the
vacancy by a fortnight.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12124397?searchTerm=%22constable%20coleman%22#
Maybe you or Jo could look for him here:
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/occupations/police
@ David Morgan,
Yes, I’ve noticed Gedge’s link to the Red Cross Company in Mildura.
I’ve already mentioned that Junior Red Cross, Crippled Children’s Home (Somerton), and Lady Lawley Cottage-by-the-Sea (Cottesloe) are recurrent themes during my investigations.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44999051?searchTerm=lady%20lawley%20red%20cross#
I’ve already posted a Trove link to men doing stencilling work for the Red Cross in Perth.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46356961?searchTerm=stencilling%20red%20cross#
My take on this is that perhaps Carl had a sort of survival’s guilt after losing Roy and John Russell to the war. His suitcase contents are like an ex-soldier’s suitcase. Working for the Red Cross and helping children could have been his way of exorcising his demons.
@AT, fabulous, thanks for that, well done …. h’mm, so Dorothy headed off to the Domestic Arts School in 1934 – @Pat good on ya …. to learn cooking, needlework, laundry, etc …. so not an academic, it seems.
@At Pat, I wouldn’t think it’s Dorothy Daphne Robertson as the debutante – her dad was living in Beach Street Seaholme in 1937 – if Dorothy Daphne was a debutante it would have been on that side of town, Williamstown, for example, not Camberwell. If she was still in Blackburn it would probably have been Box Hill Town Hall. I really think this is our Dorothy … but hey, I’m invariably wrong …. gotta find a school pic to match up.
@Jo, ah ha, process of elimination, the unidentified fair haired one is second from the right, front row ……..
@Sanders, what’s that all about re the 1944 baby …
What is the original source of the information that Dorothy was known as ‘Doff Webb’?
@ AT,
Thanks for pointing out the arrangement of the girls in the photo, very interesting!
@ Jo,
Based on the very low resolution photo of Leo’s wedding, I thought Dorothy was a brunette but I could be wrong. Maybe she was wearing a hat! As for Geoff’s ‘blondie’ maybe she was one of his other “friends’, haha.
Poppins: can’t improve much on my original post which doesn’t seem to have resonated ie., Still born on 4th August ’44 and interred Cheltenham Pioneer cemetery with stated place of residence Carlton (Womens Hospital?). It’s on FAG. clear and concise. CWH should have more detail re mother for anyone so interested.
@ Poppins,
Dorothy Daphne lived ar Game St. Blackburn with her parents in 1938. She only moved to Seaholme after her marriage.
More Brunswick Domestic Arts students aged 14-15 on 5 March 1936:
S. Dyer
G. Pritchard
L. Rixon (I’m not sure if this is right, couldn’t find any on Victoria BDM)
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Thu 5 Mar 1936
Page 48
Swimming Sports
GIRLS EVENTS
FREESTYLE-— 100 Yds Championship:
Eastwood (CB). 1: N Rogers (S.W.B.),
2; J Edmond (DA), 3
Under 12 (50 yds): L. Eastwood (CB),
1; P. Taylor (C ) and I Madden (M ), equa!
2.
12-13 (50 yds ): A Miatake (M), 1; I
Rourke (DA). 2; P Charlton (CB), 3;
13-14 (50 yds.); J Ellis (CB), 1; D Ryan
(CB), 2: J Edmond (DA), 3 .
14-15 (50 yds.): E. Eastwood (C.B.). 1; S. DYER (D.A.),
2; L. Wright (S.W.B ), 3.
BREAST STROKE— Under 12 (50 yds.)
R Whiteside (CB). 1; V. Millar (NB.),
2; P Griffiths (My ), 3
12-13 (50 yds.).
I Rourke (DA) 1: C Liveridgc (N B ), 2.
C Charlton (C.B.). 3.
13-14: J Ellis (C ).
1; P Trevanna (DA), 2; I Borrott (C.B),
3.
14-15 (50 yds.): E. Eastwood (C B),
1; S DYER (DA.), 2; L. Wright (SWB),
3.
BACKSTROKE— Under 12 (50 yds): L
Eastwood (C.B), 1, I Madden (M.), 2: M
Cotnall (N B), 3.
12-13 (50 yds ): F More
(M ), 1: M. Gregg (N.B.). 2; M. Holman
(DA ), 3.
13-14 (50 yds ): D Ryan (C.B ).
L. N. Rogers (SWB.), 2: J Ellis (C.) , 3
14-15 (50 yds): E. Eastwood (CB), 1; G
PRITCHARD (D.A ), 2
SWIMMING IN CLOTHES (30 yds.) — E
Eastwood (C B ), 1; S. DYER (DA), 2; J
Mynott (W B ), 3.
RELAY RACES— Under 13 (220 yards):
Cent. Brunswick. 1; North Brunswick. 2;
Merlymton, 3. 13-15: Central Brunswick,
I; Domestic Arts. 2; S.W. Brunswick, 3.
DIVING— Under 13; L. Eastwood (C.B.),
1; P Griffiths (Merl ), 2.
14-15: D Ryan
(CB), 1; J Ellis (Cob). 2, N. Rogers
(SWB), 3
High diving. D. Ryan (C.B.),
1; L. RIXON (Dom. A), 2.
https:/trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244872120#
Possible candidates:
https//imgur.com/a/fOHyeVw
@ AT,
Yes, Phyllis probably stayed with Alice at ‘Ards’ guest house in St. Kilda.
Unless you were right pointing out that she could have been at a boarding school after Brunswick South West State School, which she left on 19 Dec 1935.
By the way, I thought the person at the Department of Education would disclose Phyllis’ next school as well! Would it be too much to ask? 😬
John Coomber’s (sic) file at NAA states he was in Darwin from 18 May 1943 to 5 April 1944, although the file says ‘contents range May 1943 – Oct 1945′. Maybe there are other files that haven’t been digitised yet.
I have just noticed that the newspaper clipping about John Coomber’s (sic) lost shares’ certificate (dated 9 June and published 10 June 1947) states that ‘the original certificate numbered 78, dated 20th December, 1939, has been lost’, so maybe this is when John Comber left his position as caretaker of Oliver Gilpin’s mansion.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22432034?searchTerm=%22john%20coomber%20robertson%22#
Some of the debutantes have NAA files without photos (sigh), but at least some physical descriptions.
Nancy Louise Moorhouse Echberg had blue eyes, fair hair, fair complexion, scar left shin. Poor thing went from intelligent, pleasant manners, always cheerful to anxiety state, neg const, unfit for mitlitary service, discharged. But she lived until 95!
SAUNDERS (nee Echberg), Nancy Louise Moorhouse
Share
Publication: Herald Sun Date Listed: 16/3/2016
SAUNDERS (nee Echberg). _ Nancy Louise Moorhouse passed away peacefully on Mar. 13, 2016, aged 95 Dearly loved wife of Tom (dec.), much loved Mum of Wendy, Robin, Jane, Denis, Debra and Mandy. Cherished Nanna and Grandma of Veegan, Kate and Anna, Yianni and Thomas, Dylan, Jessica and Lani, Ben and Nicko, Chloe, Indy and Rory, and Billy (Woof). The family thanks Vasey RSL Park Frankston for their care in her last days. Always loved and in our hearts forever Now with Dad.
I suppose she’s the blonde girl in the photo.
Shirley Alberta Rudd had brown eyes, dark hair, dark complexion.
Poor Doris June Shilcock died in 1945. Tuberculosis, meningitis, (cerebral tumour?).
@Pat, no worries, this article is from 1937: “At the court on Tuesday, John Vernon Williamson and Elva Hawkins were charged with breaking and entering the dwelling house of Percy W. Robertson situated in Beach Street, Seaholme ….”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70737969?searchTerm=seaholme%20percy%20robertson
@Sanders, thanks, h’mm, will check it out …. more than a little obscure, Cheltenham – I’ll get to work now on my magnificent code breaking skills to decipher FAG and CWH …. this could take some time.
@Pat,
After JR’s missing luggage items from Ireland he may have been on a mission to return lost items. Swapshop – you have my kitchen knife and i have your watch.
Perhaps the tie was never his family’s and he was returning items to Glenelg. The stencils may have been ‘return to owner’ on suitcases.
@ Poppins,
I see what you’re saying now, regarding Dorothy Daphne’s whereabouts. I hope you’re right! There are other Dorothy Robertsons though, one born in Ivanhoe. Would that be under Camberwell’s ‘jurisdiction’? I know nothing about it!
@ Pat,
Very interesting that Phyllils was at “Ards.” Wish some of your super sleuthing skills would rub off on me a little!
Just emailed my 3rd (!) request for info to the very nice man at the Dept. of Ed. Am on the verge of trying his patience at this point, but if he’s kind enough to get back to me one . . . more . . . time, maybe I can brave another request for info, or perhaps I’ll pass his name along to you. (Brunswick Librarian beat a hasty retreat after I pressed her for more info, so I’ve already scared off one source of possible help!) FWIW, I think Jo was probably right in thinking boarding school at MGGS was improbable. Didn’t know at the time that JCR was living on Mincha St. and not on the property at Victorian Homes, which might have been an unsavory environment for the girls. If we look at the radius around the Balwyn lodge and determine the closest schools like Jo did when she nailed it with Southwest Primary, maybe we can figure out which schools P might have been at and contact them directly if they’re still in existence.
Thanks for clarification about JCR’s whereabouts. Great to have almost exact dates!
BTW, I think it was Derek Abbott (or maybe Colleen Fitzpatrick) who first alerted us to the “Doff” nickname, if that’s what you were asking about.
Your tales of the deb girls’ are fascinating and so sad. Stunningly-good research as always. Thanks for sharing it all with us!
Here’s another one, Isobel Simmons – third from the right, second row
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149326060?searchTerm=camberwell%20debutantes
Thelma Malcolm might be third from right, going by newspaper picture.
Pat,
maybe find a family tree on Ancestry or similar and these usually have photos for 20th Century folk.
Pat: Re your well spotted John Coomber’s civil work contract particulars card covering an unaccompanied labour hire contract running between May 1943 to June 1945, a period of just 11 months. Seems to put lie to early posts taken from Family Search through historian Bruce Bennett that attest to his period in Darwin airfield const. be from 1941 through 1947 which shows Robbie being elsewhere for five years or more. As I recall there was a time in ’46 mind, when Dorothy had to call her dad over to the Brumby St. pad to fend off Carl who had run amok as might a deprived stallion looking for lost love. Best we get on to it before it’s too late and a good start would be a
visit to the given address for Alice’s fortnightly stipend. Could give us new lead to Doff’s sudden trip to Bute in 1947.
@ Byron Deveson,
Probably, but unfortunately I don’t have a subscription. I have searched Ancestry for public trees but no photos.
@ Poppins,
Great pic of Isobel (poor thing died in 1955, her grave photo is on Findagrave).
Where’s Thelma Malcolm newspaper picture?
@ AT,
What is the original source of the pet name Doff? Where has Abbott or Fitzpatrick got this info?
Her nephews? If they have never met her, how would they know that?
Or was it from someone else?
I only ask because I thought this was in Dorothy’s divorce files, but it isn’t, and Abbott has mentioned that Phyllis’ son told him that ‘there’s a couple of people who might have known Dorothy’, so I suppose that’s where he got this info from, but who are they?
Unfortunately, debutante Dorothy Robertson could be Dorothy Ellen Robertson, born 1919 in Hawthorn to Leslie Townsend Robertson and Dorothea Elvina Hunter.
Leslie’s father, David Claude Robertson, was a member of Camberwell citizens’ committee.
Fathers of other debutantes are also mentioned: J.C. Maguire, W. G. Shilcock, N. P. Smart.
MANY DANCES HELD
LAST NIGHT
–––––––––––•-•-•––––––––––––
Camberwell Citizens Honor
Mayor And Mayoress
Assisting the office bearers in the suc
cessful arrangements for the function
were the following members of the citi
zens’ committee: — Crs. W. Dimmlck, J.
S. August, P. N. le Leu, K. L. O; Mac-
leay. H. S. Leigh, O. B. Norman; R. B.
Barnes, W. A, Fordham, A. E. Vine, J.
H. Nettleton, D. W. Watson; Messrs. R.
G. Ball. H. A. Baker, E. W. Baker, J. S.
Balderstone, W. R. Barstow, G. Barnard,
G. P. Brackstone, H. P. Bennett, L. J.
Bolger, A L. Brooks, G. L. Campbell,
Geo. Coghlll, J. P. Coghlan, W. C. Cop-
perthwalte, W. Creaton, T. J. Currie, T.
R. Davey, K. T. Duncan, W. B. Drum-
mond, W. McK. Plndlay, A. S. Friend,
A. R. George, M. N. Gregory, S. J.
Grimes, T. W. Hathaway. G.- C. Har-
greaves. E. S. Hood, H. H. Hopkinson,
J. Jordan: J. C. Maguire, G. N. Mal
colm, P. J.- Mitchell, H. Morgans, P. H.
Noldt, H. Pearson. P. J. Pitcher, G. A.
Rndncll, D. CLAUDE ROBERTSON, S. Samp
son, W. G. Shllcock, N. P. Smart, A. H.
Stevens, C. S. Tompkins, W. C. Towns,
H. E. White. A. J. Withers, G. A. Win-
wood, H. Leslie Witt, Dr. S. K. Crownson
and Dr. P. Hartnett.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206949838?searchTerm=camberwell%20mayoral%20ball#
Dorothy Ellen’s birth record doesn’t show up on Victoria BDM unless you type D* because her name appears as Dothy Ellen. Birth Reg 4125/1919.
Poor thing died on 1 Aug 1945 just 3 years after her marriage to Noel William Paull in 1942.
PAULL. — On August 1 (suddenly), at St.
Vincent’s Hospital. Dorothy Ellen
(Peggy), dearly beloved wife of Noel Paull,
cf 8 Flinders-avenue, Canterbury.
PAULL (nee Robertson). — On August 1,
Dorothy Ellen, dearly beloved only
daughter of Dorothy and Leslie Robertson,
ot 29 Salisbury-street. Moonee Ponds.
PAULL. — On August 1, Dorothy, loved sis-
ster of John, Richard, Alex and Charles.
PAULL (nee Dorothy Robertson). — On Aug
ust 1, Peggy, dearly beloved grand
daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J. S. Hunter,
Highett, beloved cousin of Norman. In the
midst of life we are in death.
PAULL (nee Dorothy Robertson). — On Aug
ust 1, Peggy, dearly beloved niece of
Alma and Rupert Hamilton. Crib Point,
loved cousin of Keith, Robin and Joy.
PAULL. — On August 1, Dorothy Ellen,
dearly beloved daughter-in-law of Eva
Paull and sister-in-law of Lola.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204027277?searchTerm=%22dorothy%20ellen%22%20%22robertson%22%20%22paull%22#
Swimmer Sylvia Dyer, competing for Bruns Dom Arts in 1936 was still competing for Footscray in 1938.
Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 – 1954)
Sat 12 Feb1938
Page 4
Yarra Swim To M. Levey
WOMEN’S SECTION
Doris Painter (Abbotsford), 33 mln., 1;
Dorothy Pridham (Coburg) 2; Sylvia Dyer,
Footscray), 3. 55 min. 18 sec
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/180853641?searchTerm=%22sylvia%22%20%22dyer%22#
Sylvia Dyer (Elsternwick) amongst 10 year-old girls at Zercho College’s first-class graduates of the junior secretarial course in Jan 1930.
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Sat 4 Jan 1930
Page 6
SCHOOL SPEECH DAY: ZERCHO COLLEGE
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244575593?searchTerm=%22sylvia%22%20%22dyer%22#
Sylvia Nance Dwyer, b. 1921, Traralgon, married John Alexander Blair, b. 1901, Williamstown, in 1941 (Vic 18431/1941) and was a widow by 1969.
I’m not sure she’s the same swimmer from Dom Arts but I couldn’t find another good candidate yet.
Her sister, Linda Juanetta (Juanita) born 1920 in Traralgon married in Rosedale, also in 1941 (Jan), to Noel Alfred Matters (Brunswick); Sylvia was her bridesmaid.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269461107?searchTerm=%22dyer%22%20%22juanita%22#
The Age
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Monday, February 24, 1969
Page:14
WHITING BYRNE. Solicitors, 166 Queen Street Melbourne. JOHN ALEXANDER BLAIR formerly of Traralgon…. late of Thompson Avenue, …arage Employee Deceased. After fourteen clear days SYLVIA NANCE BLAIR of Thompson Avenue Cowes Widow Executrix appointed by said Deceased’s Will dated 7th day of September 1946 WILL APPLY to the Supreme Court of the State of Victoria for a grant of Probate of the said will.
Sorry, Dyer, not Dwyer…
Best candidate yet for G. Pritchard is Gwendoline Iris Pritchard, b. 1921, Carlton, to Audrey Robby and Claude, married German citizen Fritz Heinz Weber in 1946. In 1948 he was applying for naturalisation and their address was 9 Grafton Street, Elsternwick.
WEBER, Gwendoline Iris
Publication: Herald Sun Date Listed: 8/8/2015
WEBER. _ A Memorial Service to commemorate the life of Gwendoline Iris Weber will be held at the family home on TUESDAY (Aug. 11) at 2.00 p.m.
L. Rixon could be Linda Maria Rixon born in 1922 in Albury, NSW, to Edgar George and Edith M. E., married in Victoria to Laurence Douglas Best in 1947.
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Sat 27 Dec 1947
Page 6
WEDDINGS CELEBRATED
Best — Rixon
At St. Thomas’s Church of
England, Moonee Ponds, yester
day, the marriage was celebrated
of Mr. Laurence Douglas Best,
second son of Mrs. H. H. Best
and the date Mr. Best, of Devon-
port, Tasmania, and Linda Maria
Rixon; only daughter of Mr. and
Mrs. E- G. Rixon. of Pascoe
Vale-road,- Moonee Pofids. Rev.
C. Hedley Raymond officiated.
The bride carried a trailer of
gardenias and water lilies against
her classical gown of white satin,
with which she wore an em
broidered tulle veil held in place
with gardenias.
Misses Dorothy Jacobson and
Eileen Wlllmott were bridesmaids
in . gowns of lemon hand-painted
marquisette, worn with matching
picture hats.
Following the ceremony a re
ception was held at the Victoria
Palace, where the wedding cake
was decorated with irangipannl
sent by air from Brisbane.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206056069?searchTerm=%22linda%20rixon%22#
It looks like Leslie was living in West Africa in 1936 at least.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204837234?searchTerm=Mr%20Leslie%20robertson
The Robertson from Ivanhoe was named Jean Robertson.
Here’s that Thelma pic and the Phyllis Shilcock pic.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11252475?searchTerm=thelma%20malcolm
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22326777?searchTerm=phyllis%20shilcock
They’re in an imgur with Nancy’s pic somewhere here
Whoops, when I mentioned a possible Thelma in pic I meant third from right in the front row, Isabel’s the second row. Might put up a new pic with names added
@ Pat,
It’s my impression that Abbott or Fitzpatrick got the info about Doff’s nickname from Phyllis’ descendants. I wish P’s relatives were willing to talk to us. I’d love to know if they have a pic(s) of D in an old photo album. If we can locate their names and addresses on Ancestry, might be worth writing them and asking.
Wish Abbott were more forthcoming with info. It irks me no end that he’s not. He must know we’re turning ourselves inside out here trying to obtain it. It would take him all of 2 seconds to share with us what he knows and to answer our remaining questions!
@ Poppins,
Thanks for the photo, like AT says, stellar work!
Jean Dorothy Robertson, b. 1920 at Ivanhoe. I suppose she could be known as Dorothy? Anyway, I’m not trying to be a party pooper. Fingers crossed it’s our Dorothy!
Pat: A reason for Dorothy being known as Doff (as is quite common) could stem from children (Doff) and certain classes overcoming problem tongue placement words by means of deletion or substitution eg., “My name is Doffy”. Many kids even develop a compensating lithp instead and as thuch the ‘th’ sound dominates ie. “My name is Dorothy whath yourth?” works fine but in summing up Hortheth for courtheth be the rule of fumb!
@ Poppins,
Maybe I’ve got it wrong, because Leslie Townsend Robertson apparently married Dorothy Clara Furner in Wallaroo, SA, in 1922.
So Dorothy Ellen Robertson (1919) is the daughter of another Leslie Robertson who also had two sons with Dorothea Elvira Hunter, Charles Hunter (1923) and John Cameron (1915).
Off to investigate them!
https://www.searle-ons.com/townsend/p184.htm#i17107
The marriage details can be viewed by anyone who has a subscription of Genealogy SA.
ROBERTSON Leslie Townsend / Dorothy Clara Furner / Daly / 293/296 / 1922
@ Poppins,
Dorothy Ellen’s parents lived at 29 Salisbury Street, Moonee Ponds, so Doff is still in the game.
Can someone read the captions? Nice photo of the debutantes!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11162503?searchTerm=camberwell%20debutantes#
Just thinking about what Richard D mentioned that Geoff Lockyer had a thing for prostitutes. Brings to mind my recent post on the Red Hen 24 hour cafe run by an American crime family and located within short walking distance of Bribey St. in the then heart of Mebun’s red light district along St. Kilda Road. In putting the little we know and much we don’t about Dorothy’s past, it doesn’t take too much nouse to guess what she did for a living does it, and I say that without malice towards the lady or the profession. To follow on from there, one might assume that Dorothy’s fingerprints be on file, as would those of her pimp who could only be her Charlie to my way of thinking. Culmination of this unusual variation on a theme be that SM’s original on file prints may yet prove to be the only viable forensic means of confirming if Carl and he be one and the same. All falls into place the way I see it going down, but I don’t see such a realistic point of view gaining much support amongst the CM punters, at least those whose feelings I’m most familiar with.
Mitch Whalmi,
In answer to Derek Abbott’s Facebook question regarding whether the enrollment info I received from the Dept. of Education matches Dorothy’s and Phyllis’ birthdates: YES, it does. I prefaced my email to the DOE specifying those birthdates. The archivist who replied to a separate email I wrote gave me inaccurate information claiming Dorothy attended Fyansford Primary because he chose to disregard the birthdate info I sent him. Therefore, both Dorothy and Phyllis attended Brunswick South-West Primary during the dates in the screenshot, but neither girl was ever enrolled at Fyansford Primary. Dorothy also attended Brunswick Domestic Arts School for at least one year following her attendance at Brunswick S-W Primary.
My thought is gilpin paid for Dorothy to have a private education
A bit off-topic, but not entirely…
Where did Eliza Amelia Webb go after the death of Richard August?
Prior to his death on 2 April 1939 at Bethesda Hospital, Richmond, he stayed at Gladys and Leslie’s house at 15 Coats Street, Moonee Ponds, right?
Where did Eliza live until her death in 1946?
I’d appreciatte if someone with access to the electoral rolls could post the exact addresses, if they’re availabe. Thanks!
@ Poppins – I’d love an updated picture of the debs with possible names so far. It’s interesting!
I have a book “Journeyings” by historian JanetMcCalman, “The biography of a middle class generation 1920-1990.” It follows the lives of a group of people who caught the old number 69 tram to Melbourne independent schools Scotch College, Methodist Ladies College, Genazzano and Trinity in 1934. Dorothy and the Brunswick Domestic Arts School girls would be a great counter point. I feel it is increasingly likely that Dorothy is one of the debs, perhaps imagining social mobility. I’m sure she’s inflated her “pharmacist” claim later in life.
Great work with your Department of Education correspondence AT!
Another excellent book on Melbourne social life for women and girls in Melbourne of this time is Gideon Haigh’s “A Scandal in Bohemia” about the life and death of school teacher, artist’s muse and aspiring writer, Mollie Dean. Poor Mollie, who was born in 1905, the same year as Charlie, was murdered in Elwood in 1930: https://theconversation.com/inside-the-story-humanising-a-cold-case-victim-writing-the-life-and-brutal-death-of-mollie-dean-111185
@ Jo,
Thank you for the compliment! Never would have thought to write to them if it hadn’t been for you!
You sound very well-read. Am hoping to have a peak at some of the books you cited. “Journeyings” and “A Scandal in Bohemia” both sound very interesting.
Like you, I suspected D might have inflated her pharmacy creds — until I saw the clipping below. Note the date! It’s just after she left Bromby St. Makes me wonder if she found it necessary to get additional training in order to support herself after leaving Charlie. I imagine there would have been so many newly-minted pharmaceutical trainees in Melbourne that maybe competition for jobs became steep. Perhaps that’s what prompted the move to SA?
https://imgur.com/a/zVRx30R
(Scroll down ’til you see the section I highlighted. I’d like to pull up this page on Trove again. The names in the top-right column might be worth following up on, also.)
@AT Still not ruling out Dorothy being at North West Brunswick in a later year; therefore, in the existing published photo with a high level of detail available from there my suggestion for Dorothy still stands till they respond to enquiries about her enrollment in the negative.
Pat:- Pic of debs just talks of presenting to Mayor and Mayoress etc. No debs were named.
@Jo, updated deb photo. Not sure who Doris’s sister is, can’t pick her out from the wedding shot ….
https://imgur.com/CowUIuw
So if we could just find a school photo from Brunswick South West State School, Years 7 to 8, 1932/1933, I reckon we could pick her out from the deb photo, be easier!
@ Alan H,
Thanks, I thought the small print could have some names but I see it’s about the photographers.
@. Poppins,
I think Shirley Avenell could be far left back row, considering that she was the youngest of them.
There’s a public photo of olderDorothy May Scott and he husband Maurice Donald Evans on Ancestry. I don’t have a subscription so I can only he low resolution miniature version of the photo.
There’s also a public photo of Jean Estella Smart on Ancestry (Dabner family tree).
@ Poppins and AT
Have you found who is Eileen Maguire?
Ellen Eileen Maguire, born 1923 at Fairfield, parents Annie McLaughlin and James.
If this is the debutante, she would be the youngest one.
Her marriage record says Eileen Helen.. if it’s the same person, married to James Patrick O’Dea in 1945.
I thought that she could be Eileen Dorothea Maguire, mother Ruby Cath Maguire, father unknown, born in 1918 at Oakleigh, but her mother married William Bates in 1923, so it’s probably not her.
@ Poppins,
I think the girl seating is more likely to be Thelma Malcolm.
https://imgur.com/a/eI1TT77
Rona Valerie’s 2 years younger sister Verna Mavis Rutledge during her wedding in London.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205329337?searchTerm=%22Ellenby%22#
I think the girls’ positions are in a sort of alphabetical order.
Most girls on the right side of Mrs. Warner have surnames begininng with S and the ones just left of Mrs. Warner would have surnames beginning with R.
One expception would be Thelma Malcolm, but she was a Camberwell citizen along with her pals Shilcock and Dorothy Scott, so maybe they have been put together.
https://imgur.com/a/OoWKHhT
Based on this assumption, Dorothy Robertson would be one of this two girls. Which one resembles Alice and/or John Comber?
https://imgur.com/a/WXK3jKT
@ Curio,
The existing published photo from Brunswick N-W Primary is of 7th and 8th grade students in 1933 when we now know D was at Brunswick S-W Primary. I think it likely D left Domestic Arts at school leaving age of 14 after one year there, tho’ she could have stayed thru 1935 and left at age 15. I think it highly unlikely she would have left Dom Arts to return to primary school and have received no indication from the Dept of Ed. that that was the case.
@ Poppins,
Yes, I think we should focus on finding a photo of D from Brunswick S-W Primary. I was hoping Pat was going to try and reach out to Sue Rogerson who posted photos on Facebook of her mother there in ’33 and ’36, but perhaps she felt it was too much of a longshot. That Facebook group, as well as the one for the former Dom Arts School (aka Brunswick Girls’ School/Brunswick Girls’ High School) and other Facebook groups, might be good places to request pics from both D’s and P’s school years if we specify the grades and years we’re looking for. I don’t have a Facebook account or I would post the requests myself! I still think it’s worth asking Sue R. if her mother might remember either D or P, even tho’ neither girl was in the same class with her mom.
PROV might have photos of students at Brunswick S-W Prim’y in a box that can be viewed onsite, tho’ not sure; I get confused by the acronyms that accompany some of the holdings listed on their site! After compiling the most complete list I can of all D’s school years, am thinking of writing to them and requesting their help. Fingers crossed they’ll be kind enough to reply!
Another newspaper pic of the debutantes but no bloomin’ name details.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206946912?searchTerm=debutantes
Thanks @Pat, I’ll have a look today.
Rona Valerie Rutledge married Robert Littlewood “Bob” Ritchie in 1940.
Their daughter born in 1944, Lorelle, is one of the girls at the Hawthorn Town Hall Mayoral Ball 9 May 1961.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/121980012/
https://boroondara.spydus.com/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/WPAC/BIBENQ/21392632/48224148,33?FMT=IMG
@ Poppins,
Any chance of getting the full resolution photo? Maybe she looked like her mother.
There’s a Lorelle Ritchie who is a committee member at the Pacific Golf Club in Queensland. There’s a photo of all the ladies on their website. If she’s Rona’s daughter (spinster?) she might have many photos of her mom.
https://pacificgolf.com.au/women-girls-golf/
@ Pat
Based on your selection I would say the girl with the longish face and nose.
For good measure here is Dorothy’s 1949 home, in Elsternwick, which she shared with the Campbells. This seems to be her last electoral roll listing, with her occupation listed as “chiropodist”. It’s quite a lovely house, opposite Elsternwick Primary School.
https://imgur.com/a/FEzVgcJ
@ AT,
Unfortunately my comment on Sue Rogerson’s post on FB is still ‘pending’. I have sent her a private message, no response yet. I don’t have a FB profile, just an account without much details, so maybe people are suspicious. In fact, I hate FB!
@ Jo,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
My candidate is the other one, based on the strong chin that she could have inherited from John Comber, but if she looked more like her mother, your candidate is the best choice. I also based my choice on baby Phyllis” photo.
Is the process of picture elimination reliable. That you know she was in the picture. I was in the school rugby team and never photographed.
Jo,
The house would have been even prettier when first built around the 1890s-early 1920s. Until at least the 1960s, I’d guess, the roof would have still have been of slate tiles though the ornament originally of wrought iron, very likely removed for munitions during WWII if no earlier. What is there now looks like 1970s-80s renovation pressed-aluminium.
There would also have been an awning of slate-tiles supported by wood fretwork over the window to the right.
Classic bungalow design.
@ Pat,
Am so glad you decided to post on FB! I wonder what the hold-up there is. Maybe Sue R. has stopped checking the site. I think a separate post(s) requesting the photos we need on both school websites might be helpful.
Could you tell me who’s been contacted so far in an effort to try and get the names and addresses that were mailed to Camberwell city hall before the deb ball? I’m wondering if either the town clerk in Camberwell or the Camberwell library might still have those names and addresses on a sheet of paper in a file somewhere. The addresses that accompanied those names are the key, I think.
The following quote is from an article I found online about a book called, “Buddha in a Bookshop,” by Peter Kelly. It’s about gay Aussie poet Harold Stewart. It made me wonder if Charlie’s dogeared copy of the ROK could have been purchased used in Robb’s Bookshop in Little Collins St. That bookshop and others in Little Collins St. appear to be close to Bromby St. It — or possibly one other I’ve read about — was a gathering place for poets and writers who sought direction and criticism from the shop’s owner. I also wonder if Stewart himself could have crossed paths with Charlie and gave him his copy of the book. Stewart published his first collection of poetry in the same year Charlie ended his life. The way Stewart is described in the article sounds a lot like Charlie to me:
“Stewart . . . moved to Melbourne, worked in army intelligence in WW2, developed an early interest in Oriental art and poetry . . . [and] published his first collection of poetry in 1948. [He] was a reclusive man, in part because of his gayness. [He was] an orientalist of some distinction. The coterie which grew up around Stewart in Melbourne in the 1950s . . . met regularly in Robb’s Bookshop in Little Collins St. [Stewart was] amongst the first to take a sustained interest in . . . the arts of the East.”
https://www.themathesontrust.org/papers/books/book%20reviews/Buddha%20in%20a%20Bookshop%20H%20Oldmeadow.pdf
There’s another book about Stewart called, “Damaged Men: The Precarious Lives of James McAuley and Harold Stewart.” It’s by Michael Ackland.
https://imgur.com/a/ODSA3kP
McAuley also served in the Australian Army in Melbourne in the 40s:
From wikipedia:
— “In 1943, [McAuley] was commissioned as a lieutenant in the militia for the Australian Army and served in Melbourne.”
@AT Wrong again. 1934 not 1933 and your own recent posted reply from a records worker about Brunswick Domestic Arts school shows there were misunderstandings between the two of you about what you wanted and what was returned in an email. The 1934 NW Brunswick School is very much alive as a possibility.
Dorothy Ellen Robertson debutante daughter of Claude Robertson on the Camberwell committee is most likely in the photo.
@ADHDT I can see the comment telling us NW Brunswick did not reply, so why can’t you?
H’mm, I have a Poppins hunch that Dorothy is third from the left front row ….
@Pat, this lady is pretty tall, I believe she was Shirley Avenell and became Mrs Robert Potter. Photo from 1955. She’d have to be one of the girls on the end where they’ve slotted in the tall ones?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71702731?searchTerm=geelong%20cup%20mrs%20r%20potter
@ Sanders – I assume that you’re now slandering under the name “Jo Blow”?
@ AT,
I think that’s a great idea.. I have contacted Brunswick Library regarding the book:
50th anniversary of the Brunswick South-West State School 1927-1977 / edited and compiled by Elizabeth Lynch.
The only photo of Brunswick South West is Grade 8 – 1934. Dorothy would have already left and Phyllis was probably in Grade 3 or 4.
I have asked for information on Brunswick Domestic Arrs as well. Still waiting for a reply.
@ Poppins,
Third from the left front row could also be Dorothy, if the alphabetical order is correct, because she’s beside Rona Rutledge (she’s the spitting image of her sister Verna(.
@ Poppins,
I think the first girl from the left back row could be Shirley Avenell because, as you say, she was tall and she does look tall in the newspaper photo. And I think she is the youngest girl by her looks.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206946912?searchTerm=debutantes
Jo: Check the time. Be assured it be a bit late in the evening for me. Sorry.
@ David Morgan,
I don’t understand your last comment. We know a ‘Dorothy Robertson’ is in the debutantes’ photo.
If she is Dorothy Jean Robertson, born 1920 at Ballarat, to John Comber Robertson and Alice Stratford is what we are trying to find out.
@ Curio,
AT’s comments regarding Dorothy’s school records are very clear.
Dorothy attended BSW from June 1930 to Dec 1933. The person at the Dept. of Education confirmed that Dorothy’s next school was Brunswick Domestic Arts, which would be 1934, and she could be D. Robertson competing for BDA in 1934.
Why are you posting all these photos on FamiySearch and FB whithout evidence? This isn’t helpful.
@ Jo Blow,
People commenting on this post sought out useful information, with concrete evidence to support it, and with a well-mannered approach. Shame on you.
I may be accused of gender bias, but I have to say that the female team commenting here is amazing, while many members of the male team continue to fight over petty things.
@ AT,
I haven’t contacted anybody else, apart from sending an online form to City of Boroondara Library (Camberwell). Your English is way better than mine, so feel free to contact them all, haha.
@ Curio,
You are correct that the published photo from Brunswick N-W Primary was dated 1934, not 1933. I didn’t bother to go back and check the date on the photo because the emails I posted state that D was enrolled at Dom Arts in 1934, and that she probably entered the school in Jan. of that year after leaving Brunswick S-W Primary in Dec. 1933. (School years at that time typically started in Jan. or Feb. and ended in Dec.)
While we don’t know for certain when D left Dom Arts (a fact which has now been confirmed in an email I’ll include below), I think we can assume from Pat’s Trove article that she was probably also at the school in Nov. 1934. Seems reasonable to conclude, then, that D was probably at Dom Arts from Jan. ’34 – Dec. ’34 or ‘35. If you choose to believe that D left S-W Prim’y at the end of ’33 to attend N-W for half a year before going to Dom Arts, or that she left Dom Arts after only half a year to return to primary school at N-W, that’s certainly your prerogative. Logic tells me she spent all of ’34 at Dom Arts before leaving school at the end of ’34 or ’35.
For the record, there was no misunderstanding between me and the Dept. of Ed. employee I’ve been communicating with. I requested additional info and he kindly provided it. It was another employee at a different organization who gave me inaccurate information which was corrected early on.
For the sake of clarity, all 3 emails are posted below in the order received. 2 have been posted already; the 3rd was received last night. (Email containing inaccurate info not included below):
1) re Brunswick S-W Primary (forwarded from that school to Dept. of Ed.):
https://imgur.com/a/6J0qjL5
2) re S-W Prim’y & Dom Arts (from Dept. of Ed.):
https://imgur.com/a/a6oow8n
3) re Cundare North, Dom Arts, & places to look for photos (from Dept. of Ed.):
https://imgur.com/a/MVxTLPs
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
@ Pat,
Glad you like my idea (tho’ not sure which one you mean)!
Sounds like you’re having better luck than I did at Brunswick Library. The librarian I contacted there several weeks ago about trying to get a photo of D was initially quite helpful, but didn’t reply to a follow-up email I sent. The book you found there sounds promising!
Remember how Brunswick Domestic Arts became Brunswick Girl’s School, aka Brunswick Girls High School, in 1935, and how it went thru 3 or 4 subsequent name changes until it finally became Brunswick East High School before closing its doors in the ‘90s or so? Those name changes might impact how to look for student photos. One book I found, called, “Brunswick East High School: An Historic Overview,” which was on the Brunswick Community History Group’s website, contained info only about the school in its later years and had no photos from its earlier period, unfortunately.
Are you in the process of inquiring about the list of debs names and addresses that were sent to the Camberwell town clerk? Maybe having the deadline date that those names and addresses were supposed to be mailed in by would help. I’ll try and look it up for you if you like. Date of the ball was Wed. May 25, 1938, if that’s of any help.
Good luck to you at the library!
@ AT,
Yes, I meant the idea of asking for the debutantes’ request to the Camberwell town clerk, and yes, I have mentioned the deadline date 🤞🏻
They have a phone number for requests, so maybe one of the Aussies could speed things up by contacting them. I suspect the online form could take some time to be processed or not processed at all, judging by previous experience.
@ AT,
I’ve sent a search request to Brunswick Community History Group Inc. Their website doesn’t look very promising, but perhaps someone might be interested in researching some information.
D. Robertson, Women’s Sports, Amateur Athletics, competing for Melbourne, 15 Jan 1934.
I’ve checked some of the other competitors and they have similar dates of birth.
I’m not sure what A and B Grade would mean. If I’m talking BS, Aussie members can clarify.
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Mon 15 Jan 1934
Page 12
WOMEN’S SPORTS.
B GRADE.
Melbourne, 39 points d. Malvern, 11.
100 Yards; D. Robertson (Melb.) 1, ?. Wil-
liams (Melb.) 2, E. Heatherly (Melb.) 3.
Time 12 3-5th sec.
Negative answer from Brunswick Community History Group. Apparently someone else had already asked them for information about Dorothy.
City of Boroondara Library has forwarded my enquiry to the local and family history team. Staff from that team will be in contact soon.
Very rapid responses. Bon! (as Monsieur Poirot would say)
@ Pat,
Awesome! Looks like we’re on the same wavelength. You’re one step ahead of me as usual!
Any Aussies out there willing to phone in that request? Perhaps I’ll try and fill out the online form, just for the heck of it, tho’ with reduced expectations.
I’m afraid you may be told the same thing I was by the Brunswick Community History Group. The woman there was kind enough to go thru the book I asked her about that’s on their website. So disappointed when she said it had nothing relevant. She said she (or someone there) would post a request on FB for photos of the school, but I don’t think she or they ever got around to it. Also not sure which site(s) they intended to post on. (Am assuming the Brunswick East High School FB site, among others, but don’t know.) Might be worth a follow-up conversation. I found them very nice and timely in their responses.
Very excited to read the info you found about D competing! Does it say what school she was at? Not sure how to search Trove by date, but will try. I think “A” and “B” might refer to “terms” or “forms.” There were typically 3 “terms” or semesters per year in primary schools (A, B, and C). “A” began in Jan. (or often Feb.); “B” in April or May; “C ” in July, Aug., or Sept. (can’t remember which now). The school year ran from Jan. (or Feb.) – Dec. Each primary school “term” lasted about 13 or 14 weeks or so, and breaks between terms were short (just a few weeks). Summers were essentially non-existent. There were often 4 “forms” in Domestic Arts schools. The 1st “form” probably started in Jan. (“A”), and I’m guessing the last form was probably “D” and ended in Dec., tho’ I’m not as confident on this point as I’d like to be. This system of “terms” or “forms” could explain, e.g., why Dorothy was admitted to Brunswick S-W Primary in June ’30 and probably started there shortly after.
Great work as always, and so very helpful. Can’t wait til your next riveting installment!
@Pat As I commented before, pay for a membership of sites like Ancestry in order to contact relatives of Dorothy. Also, on FamilySearch this is also a way to share with family and receive feedback in the ChatBox or on the comments there. Don’t pull the sex card on Jo Blow here when you wont even pay for membership to contact relatives, but stick to appealing to the lowest common denominator group with your conspiracy theories without any base evidence here.
@Jo We all thought that was you not Sanders.
@Pat
As a Robertson related to Dorothy, thankyou however you seem to be unwell with much or your comments being wild speculation. The Robertson family has been contacted for feedback on Ancestry and FamilySearch.
@ Pat,
I think your Trove find of D. Robertson playing amateur athletics might not be our Dorothy after all. Looks like that D. Robertson belonged to the Victorian Women’s Amateur Athletics Association, a professional organization of older women athletes. If so, my endless soliloquy about primary “terms” and Dom Arts school “forms” can be tossed!
https://athsvic.org.au/about/history/
Link to original Trove article:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203383665?searchTerm=women%27s%20sports%20%20amateur%20athletics%20d.%20robertson
(BTW, thanks for defending me so brilliantly to Curio et al. You rock, girl!)
Pat,
Yes we know ‘a’ Dorothy Robertson but the risk is of an assumption of ‘the’ and then the photo becoming ‘Dorothy’ and posted on ancestry sites. Looking at all the data you collected she seemed more likely to be Dorothy E not Dorothy J.
Did we eliminate this 1941 tennis-playing Robertson?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268230857?searchTerm=%22Tovell%22%2C%20%22Robertson%22%2C%20tennis
Curio & Rusty Bertha,
Most folks would find no offence in ‘Jo Blow’ as a post ID, Stands for ‘ordinary person’ so nothing to read into it at all unless one chooses to. Perhaps the recent ‘Jo Blow’ commenter might like to clear the air re Jo’s “@Sanders slanders” reply, as if if it really matters.
@ AT,
Thanks! I’ve realised that most of the ‘girls’ were actually above 20.
I always try to post links and the original piece of the articles to back up what I’m saying. I’m not saying that what I post is about Dorothy Jean Robertson, it’s just a scientifc method of elimination, but some people seem to disagree! ⏚
@ Pat Robertson,
Thank you for you feedback, although it doesn’t add anything to this discussion.
I have no idea what you mean by ‘you seem to be unwell with much’, sorry, Strayan or Strine English is an alien language to me.
As for the ‘wild speculations’, I think I am doing a pretty good job giving that the Robertson family doesn’t disclose any information.
Speculations and bits and pieces of information gathered from online sources is all I have to work with.
This is an unsolved death case, which gives me the right to speculate.
If you are a Dorothy’s relative (we can only speculate about that!), why not free me from my unwell state of wild speculation and disclose the facts as they have been passed on to you? I’m assuming you didn’t know Dorothy personally.
Unfortunately I can’t pay for an Ancestry subscription (I live in the so-called 3rd world) and the information about Dorothy on FamilySearch is being changed and updated by many people, and some of them are certainly wilder and seem pretty unwell!
@ David Morgan,
Dorothy Ellen Robertson probably lived with her parents (Leslie Richard ‘Dick’ Robertson and Dorothy Elvira) and brothers (John, Richard, Alexander and Charles) at 29 Salisbury Street, Moonee Ponds (unfortunately there are no articles on Trove for 1938), not in or around the Camberwell area.
After her marriage she was living at Flinders Avenue, Canterbury (near Camberwell), which is what gave me the impression that she was related to the Robertsons of Camberwell.
Leslie Townsend Robertson, brother of David Claude Robertson, of Camberwell, was another person. He married in South Australia after Dorothy Ellen’s birth. Read the posts above (or search for Townsend on your browser).
@ Rusty Bertha,
David Claude Robertson, who was a member of the Camberwell citizen committe, was NOT Dorothy Ellen’s father. Read the posts above (or search for Claude on your browser).
@ David Morgan,
I forgot to add.. I’m not posting any photo on Ancestry or FamilySearch, so why not direct your valid point to the person who is doing that?
I’m discussing information found on Trove mostly, and yes, speculating about the photos until hard evidence is available. This is a discussion blog and you have speculated on many occasions, so why can’t I?
@ Curio,
What conspiracy theories? You’ve lost me, again.
I won’t pay for an Ancestry subscription to chat with the Robertson family members, for two simple reasons, one – I’m UNEMPLOYED, two – I love to investigate, that’s why I’m commenting on this blog, otherwise why would I be bothered to waste my time having to explain myself to people like you who is constantly giving hints (‘search for Doff on the Ryerson Index’, ‘I’m in contact with family members…’) but never posts any concrete information?
On the contrary, you keep posting photos and information on FamilySearch (for the ‘families’) and on Facebook (for Derek Abbott) that other CM members have researched.
And if you are chatting with the Robertson and Webb related family members on Ancestry, why do you bother commenting on here? I
f I could chat with them and have all the info they seem to be willing to share with Ancestry and FamilySearch ‘chatters’ (as per Pat Robertson’s comment), but not on the main sites, I would be chatting on there all day long!
@ David Morgan,
I forgot to add.. I’m not posting any photo on Ancestry or FamilySearch, so why not direct your valid point to the person who is doing that?
I’m discussing information found on Trove mostly, and yes, speculating about the photos until hard evidence is available. This is a discussion blog and you have speculated on many occasions, so why can’t I?
@ Curio,
What conspiracy theories? You’ve lost me, again.
I won’t pay for an Ancestry subscription to chat with the Robertson family members, for two simple reasons, one – I’m UNEMPLOYED, two – I love to investigate, that’s why I’m commenting on this blog, otherwise why would I be bothered to waste my time having to explain myself to people like you who is constantly giving hints (‘search for Doff on the Ryerson Index’, ‘I’m in contact with family members…’) but never posts any concrete information?
On the contrary, you keep posting photos and information on FamilySearch (for the ‘families’) and on Facebook (for Derek Abbott) that other CM members have researched.
And if you are chatting with the Robertson and Webb related family members on Ancestry, why do you bother commenting on here?
If I could chat with them and have all the info they seem to be willing to share with Ancestry and FamilySearch ‘chatters’ (as per Pat Robertson’s comment), but not on the main sites, I would be chatting on there all day long!
According to Dorothy’s affidavit, John Comber arrived from Darwin in August 1946.
In March 1946, she went to the pictures on a Saturday night and a week later she went to Lorne for 14 days, with friends.
Still in March or maybe April, she had to call a Constable after a row with Carl, looked for a hotel to no avail, returned in the early hours to the flat (sofa blocking the door without locks), but next day she managed to book a hotel.
If Alice and Phyllis were living at 32, Charnwood Road, St. Kilda, in 1946, why Dorothy didn’t go there? Why a hotel? Giving that Alice tried to talk to Carl on the phone and later on in September John Comber went to the flat to help her, it doesn’t seem that she was estranged from her family (yet).
@ Pat,
Yes, one of the things I appreciate most about you is that you always cite your sources! Just thought since I’d found the article, I’d post the link in case you or others wanted to have a look at it again. You’re working at such breakneck speed, putting the rest of us to shame, that I’m surprised you find time to post any links!
Re: D not staying with Alice and Phyllis:
Good question. I think it might have been late at night when she decided to leave the flat. Maybe the trams didn’t run past a certain hour or it was quicker to just walk to a nearby hotel? I’m wondering why she didn’t leave the flat in January when Charlie ended the marriage. It sounds like he didn’t want her there, so why didn’t she leave? Was divorce discouraged to such an extent that estranged couples often continued to live together? Geoff Lockyer appears to have waited ’til she entered the hospital before he filed for divorce. Is it because she refused to leave his house also and that was the only way he could get her out? The strange wording of his divorce petition suggests something like this.
@ Poppins,
Any chance of asking for a high resolution photo of the Mayoral Ball at Camberwell, 1936?
Nancy Caroline Rudd, Shirley Rudd’s sister is there.
We know Shirley had a ‘dark complexion’ and if she resembles her sister we could eliminate her from the girls around Mrs. Warner.
I suppose my suspicion has been confirmed, i.e. a sort of alphabetical order, because Margaret Beard is the second girl from the left, back row. Her photo is available on Trove.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205299411?searchTerm=%22margaret%20valerie%20beard%22#
If that’s correct, Dorothy Robertson and Shirley Rudd could be nearby.
https://boroondara.spydus.com/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/WPAC/BIBENQ/21925711/48224762,20
Curio #
If only us unemployed third world semi literates had access to almighty yankee dollar purchasing power like our privilaged college educated on line paypalers take for granted, we’d be up there with the best and Dorothy could be laid to rest. Not that we’re complaing mind!
@ Curio,
I would like to second Pat’s earlier reply to “Jo Blow”, which I saw after I posted my long response to you about the NW school photo. It was jarring and off-putting to read the way both you and “Jo Blow” addressed me, so much so that I didn’t feel compelled to respond to either of you. I also found Jo Blow’s newly-adopted moniker disrespectful to long-time poster, Jo, who has contributed so much of value to the discussion here. Like Pat, I wondered if both you and “Jo Blow” were motivated by sexism or some other unnamed frustration that feels the need to lash out at women and/or others. The 3 who have been targeted here are all women. Seems like sexism to me. Does it matter what you label it? It’s disrespectful no matter what you call it.
I also shared Pat’s sentiment when she commented that “the female team commenting here is amazing, while members of the male team continue to fight over petty things.” I had exactly the same thought. Where’s your research, Curio? How have you helped advance the discussion in a productive way? You appear to post seldom but drop in here just long enough to insult others who post frequently, meaningfully, and generously.
I am also frankly appalled that you would order Pat to pay for Ancestry. You have no knowledge of her circumstances and have never even bothered to acknowledge the many contributions she has made to this site. Instead, you just want to beat up on her while benefiting from the fruits of her research and hurling absurd accusations at her. You wouldn’t even be arguing with me about the NW photo if she hadn’t found Dorothy at Domestic Arts. Yet you never bother to acknowledge that fact, let alone thank her.
If you’re not posting valuable research, are unable to buttress your weak arguments, are not contributing to the discussion in a meaningful way, and can’t be respectful and civil, why are you here?
General Slanders – I apologise.
I have just found out that the great dissembler Stuart Mullet is related to Mostly Itdontmatter.
Nance was a drunk. Dad was a patsy and a crook.
@Pat, well done …. I wasn’t entirely convinced with your selection for Thelma Malcolm in the debutante photo, h’mm, until I saw her sister Beryl and then, wowee ….. good on ya, they’re definitely sisters! So who the heck is Shirley Rudd – described as 5’4, dark hair, dark skinned and dark eyes? The pursuit for Dorothy continues ………
https://imgur.com/AEufJW2
@ Pat,
Is Curio Mitch Whalmi by any chance?
Jenny Delores
Don’t mention it, I’m not easily offended by inciting words. As for Nance the drunk, we sinners must pity the wowsers. Funny I always thought that Dad was a pastry cook, not a crook patsy.
@ AT,
Yep, now you know why some curious mates are here.
Regarding Dorothy going to a hotel late night, you’re absolutely right, that’s all the poor thing could do, but what about the next day?
But thinking about your remark about her staying during the divorce procedures (against Carl and Geoff), I suppose you have nailed it.
In order to be able to file a divorce against a husband (and taking maintenance proceedings) a woman could not be accused of desertion by leaving the flat/house. She probably had been advised by friends and/or solicitors.
By the time she had divorced Carl, Victoria didn’t allow divorces based on habitual cruelty, that’s why I think she had to wait so long for starting the divorce proceedings, and that Carld did her a sort of favour by deserting her.
In South Australia, Geoff could divorce her based on habitual cruelty though, which apparently he didn’t have to prove (no affidavit), because her solicitor didn’t challenge the process. This makes me think that Doff and Geoff had a sort of arrangement, which could have included a large sum of money.
The recent revelation (by RichardD) that Geoff married the very next day after the order absolute from his divorce to Doff reinforces the arrangement speculation (for the benefit of the members related to the Robertson family).
@ Poppins,
Well done, again, photo hunter! I think Shirley Rudd could be the girl you thought was Thelma Malcolm, what do you think? Maybe by ‘dark complexion’ they only meant dark hair, brown eyes? If you can find a high res photo of the 1936 Mayoral Ball at Camberwell, maybe we can confirm that, by comparing her sister’s looks to hers.
Jean Estelle Smart, b.1920 at Northcote.
Parents: Norman Patrick Smart and Ethel Dora Richardson.
Married Leo Ernest Keith Batten on 29/01/1944 in Queensland. Registration details: 1944/B/58346.
Buried at Memorial C Cemetery, Hemmant, Queensland in 1998 (image available at https//www.gravestonephotos.com/public/namedetails.php?deceased=1252330).
Leo Ernest Batten’s parents: Edith Ballard and Herbert Nelson Batten, of 95 Essex-street, Pascoe Vale, Vic.
Leo Ernest died on 23/06/1967 in Queensland. Registration details: 1967/B/90114.
I couldn’t find any photos yet, only one mention of Leo Ernest Keith Batten’s business ‘Batten and Events’ on Trove (newspaper wrong spelling of his name – Keith Lee Ernest Batten).
The Courier-Mail (Brisbane, Qld. : 1933 – 1954)
Thu 5 Jun 1952
Page 7
Tax breaches
Tax breaches
In the Summons Court
yesterday, three men were
fined for failure to lodge
payroll tax returns.
They were : John An
drews, bricklaying contrac
tor, of Elfreda Street, Alder
ley, fined £3; Keith Lee
Ernest Batten, partner in
the firm lately trading as
Batten and Events, building
contractors, of Pole Street,
Northgate, fined £2; Bernard
Michael Joseph Ratz, part
ner in the firm trading as
B. and J. Ratz, ‘Wangaroa,’
Quilpie, fined £10.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50296616
Correction: Herbert Nelson Batten was Leo Ernest’s brother.
Tasmania records:
His father was Herbert Eardley Batten, mother Edith Jane Ballard (b. 1885); they married in 1906.
Their offspring: Joyce Edith (1906), Fearlis Pearl (1909), Herbert Nelson (1914), Raymond Harold (1915), and Leo Ernest and Mavis Eatha (twins) in 1918.
https://librariestas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=NI_NAME%3D%22Ballard,%22&qu=NI_NAME%3D%22Edith%E2%84%97%C2%BFJane%22#
@JS,
Who are the yankee dollarettes?
Pat sometimes unemployed of Brazil.
Myself – waiting for my reduced State Pension income as 37 years work wasn’t enough to have contributed enough. I had been a 1-person company director paying corporation tax and VAT and at the end £0 income. But that didn’t stop the tax man asking for a cheque. I asked tax man whether it would be an offence to write out a cheque from a closed business bank account?
So does that leave NickP – in his luxury villa in Brighton (guess by the way – not stalking but Nick can you move the curtains a little as my telescope on the wooden tripod is having trouble focusing on the cat).
@PAt,
Is it likely Dorothy only tried 1 nearby hotel – and a lone woman with no luggage might have looked dodgy.
If she caught Carl before his 7pm bed curfew meant she had time to catch a bus. We have to assume the quarrel went on for perhaps 5/6 hours that night for her not to be able to get a bus to her parents. But she could also walk to a phone box and phone them to be picked up. It may have been her behaviour of leaving and returning made them not want to get involved. The ‘you go back and it’s the last time we’ll help you’ argument.
uh oh ….. h’mm, there’s a Shirley Robertson in the 1939 debutantes set from Canterbury. I believe her father was Arthur Dight Robertson of 7 View Street Canterbury married to Jessie Mavis – and I just saw his obituary notice in the paper and it says “father of Shirley and Dorothy” …. oooooh!
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19610217&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
@ Pat,
Re Curio/Mitch: Good to know. Takes much, gives little. A post pilferer who kicks you while sneaking out the back door! Maybe D was dealing w/a similar kind of sexism if C only married her to get his hands on her income, or because he needed an unpaid domestic servant in the home to cook and clean for him. Sorry, Charlie. Am a little peeved w/ your sex at the moment.
Re D’s not going to stay with A & P the next day: If C was volatile, maybe D was taking it moment by moment. I’ve wondered about the “bottles” D mentions when she describes C’s first supposed suicide attempt. Perhaps he was drinking heavily at times — maybe out of frustration at the no-win situation they were both in. Alcohol abuse could have accounted for some of those periods of verbal and physical abuse she describes. Tolerance to alcohol could even account for why he resorted to using ether at least once. Sounds like there were long periods when he was calm and not threatening, so if he was abusing alcohol, maybe it was only occasional or didn’t result in violence often. Maybe she was trying to abide by the law and stick it out w/ C as best she could, leaving only for brief periods when she felt her life was truly in danger.
Victoria didn’t allow divorces based on habitual cruelty? It sounds like that would have put countless women’s lives in danger! I can understand the five year prohibition against divorce, but not one against divorce on the grounds of habitual cruelty.
Interesting take on D and Geoff, but that sounds like “collusion” to me. Can’t remember if there were denials of it by Geoff in his petition. Wasn’t there speculation that Geoff married the next day because he’d been having an affair?
Thanks for educating me on divorce law in Victoria. I’ve wondered for ages now why she stayed for so long w/ C. Maybe she was simply trying to make it to that 5-year mark without having to impose on her family or friends by going to stay w/ them, but I imagine that only would have added to the strain and frustration Charlie was already feeling.
David Morgan: Cipher Mysteries Mansions isn’t in Brighton, or indeed on the coast at all, though with climate change who’s to say it won’t be in the future?
Opinions differ on “luxury” too. =:-o
@AT #
Admittedly not so well spotted and by now long past being of significance: but in case you, being new (and most welcome) to our dedicated team of lady Dorothy hunters missed my offering first time, It came to my notice looking through John Coomber Robertson’s various Melbourne address, two stood out (one particularly) as having ties to St. Michaels Grammar School Saint Kilda, and by extension to a certain Dorothy Robertson who was recorded as being a primary grade student there in the twenties at least. I’d like to go further but then it might make appear that I’m interested and spoil it for the FB ladies, which not be my intention.
@ Poppins,
Great find, but she doesn’t appear on BDM Vic, probably because she was born after Jan 1924.
Shirley Mavis is there, born 1921 at Balwyn, to Jessie Mavis Allison and Arthur Dight Robertson, Birth Reg. 630/1921.
They married in 1919, so it’s possible that Dorothy’s birth register is not there, but if the obituary says ‘father of Shirley and Dorothy’, they usually mention the oldest one first. (I couldn’t find it, what page is it?)
@ Poppins,
If she is Dorothy Mavis Robertson, who married Douglas Jordan Horace Gray, she is interred at Burwood Cemetery, DOB 25 July 1925.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/212597046/dorothy-mavis-gray
@ Pat,
I was thinking about you not having access to Ancestry and wanted to tell you how I’m able to use it. I don’t pay for a subscription. I learned after the pandemic, when my local library stopped permitting free online access to Ancestry from home, that there was another library in a larger city in my state that does allow that access. All I needed was to get a library card from that library. I drove to get the card because the library isn’t far from where I live, but I now wonder if I can obtain a card in other parts of the state (or the country, or even the world) by simply phoning or emailing them, and sending the necessary docs and info. Here in the US, all they need is my driver’s license (or other photo ID), name, address, and phone number. Email is optional I think. I’m wondering now, as I write this, if you might be able to obtain a library card here in the US that way. (The library I’m currently using is the Los Angeles Public Library. I’ll post a link to it below.). It took me awhile to figure out that I could obtain cards from as many libraries as I like (I currently have 3, 2 of which permit online access to Ancestry for free). I’m thinking about obtaining a 4th one to a library in a city that’s about 8 hours drive away. I may call them tomorrow to ask about this. My guess is they will give me one, but I’ll find out for sure when I talk to them.
I thought of you while contemplating this and wondered if it might be an option for you. If this can be done internationally as well, not only could you obtain a card here in the US (at LAPL, e.g.), but maybe we could both get cards to Australian libraries, too. Just a thought, anyway.
Hope this helps!
https://www.lapl.org/
Nick Pelling: Reminds me that Prosper’s own mansion on the coast at 7 Main St., Henley Beach was on the corner of Sussex Street, no great distance from David’s Brighton which I may have omitted.
@ AT,
Thanks for trying to help me get access to Ancestry. I suppose it’s not possible for people residing outside the US. Same with the Australian libraries. I would have to provide a local address. My local libraries aren’t connected to Ancestry and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FamilySearch isn’t providing access at the moment. 3rd world!
I thought that sharing ideas and information here was enough, and people with access to Ancestry and other websites would provide information when needed. Apparently I was wrong! When I had a MyHeritage subscription I shared information here. I know you have offered to help and I am much obliged for your assistance.
I don’t think I want to chat with members ‘related’ to the Robertson and Webb families on Ancestry if I can’t disclose the information here. What would be the point? If they wanted to do it themselves they would have already done it, n’est-ce pas?
As I have said before, I like to investigate. I was hoping that we could do a great collaborative effort to crack this case, but some big egos are getting in the way.
Thanks again, you rock 🤘🏻
@NickP.
I’ll be giving that wooden telescope tripod back to Mr Cruel.
I always remembered that your fabulous Buzz Quiz was based in a Brighton company at one time… I believe. Just weeks before it came out (between BA contracts) I was programming DVD player menus to play a quiz game. Then I saw Buzz Quiz and realised I was programming in the Stone Age.
@Pat,
I”m hoping you are going to write the book on the real Mr and Mrs Somerton Man having done all this research. I assume you are always 1 step ahead of us with your data releases.
In terms of archives, I often found some of the scando names that came up in the old CM files could be found on nb.no. Obiously you have to rely on Google translate but fascinating to see a person leaving via nb.no and arriving via trove.
If someone did kill Carl no-one has thought Mr JC Robertson might have wanted revenge for his daughter. He was back in Ballarat I assume in 1948 was he a munitions factory supervisor? Though I would have expected a bit of rough stuff from JC with his old WW2 runway gang pounding Carl into the ground. The drug death would be more a Dorothy revenge where “the dessert was served cold and poisoned”.
@ AT and Poppins,
I thought Gladys Johnston was Gladys May Jonhston, b.1920 at Hotham East, parents: Elizabeth Fox and Robert Alfred Anderson, m. 1917, divorce proceedings in 1927. She had a sister, Dorothy, b. 1922. I haven’t found any marriage records yet.
But she could be Gladys Eva Johnston, b. 1916 at Northcote, married in 1939 to Frank Turner. She would be 22 in the ball photo, which would be a bit old, but not unheard of. Parents Richard Herbert Johnston and Eva Anna Beckefield.
Here is the girl who I think looks like her
https://imgur.com/a/beQugXn
I think this is probably Edna Mary O’Brien, by comparing her to to her mother, Myrtle Elizabeth Hooppell, and her brother, Edward Percival O’Brien. Higher resolution photos are available for My Heritage subscribers.
https://imgur.com/a/jJWYJUc
Great news for those of us unfairly labelled third world peasantry by virtue of our impoverished birthright or residential status eg., Brazil (Brasil/Braxil) & (Vietnam (Democratic Peoples Rep.). It has been unconditionally afffirmed by the two most creditable online authorities ie., Wikipedia & Quora that both of the above now be classified alongside other Developing countries such as China and South Korea as being Second World category. Might I therefore be permitted to wish sincere and hearty congtratulations to Pat o rato and reviled @Sanders slanders. Welcome to the Second World with all the rights and privilages so bestowed.
@ JS,
Thank you for sharing, and for the welcome. Very kind of you.
Yes, I did miss your 1st post regarding JCR’s address. I also came across an address or 2 for someone I thought was JCR, but realized it was the wrong one. As we now know, there was more than one JR in Melbourne at the time — one of them even married or related to an Alice (!). Lots of JRs (and even DRs) out there then. We also know, from either Pat’s or Poppins’ awesome find of Geelong school records, that the Robertsons were in Cundare North in the 20s.
Were you ever able to find out more about “baby Webb” at the hospital in Carlton North?
BTW, was that you who posted as “Jo Blow”? Thought it might be you being your naughty, clever self again.
—————-
@ Pat,
Just called LAPL to ask if it’s possible for you to get a card. Was told yes, it is. You don’t need to be a resident of the US or to have a local address. The website says, “ID cards issued by the Mexican, Argentinian and Korean consulates can be used as the sole ID requirement for obtaining a library card.” Unfortunately, I was told that you need to apply in person. They won’t let me apply for you. So very sorry! If you ever find yourself in the US, tho’, might want to grab a card while you’re here. Please know that I’m happy to look things up for you on Ancestry anytime!
I have a question for you: Why did Charlie take the locks off all the doors in the flat?
Anyone else want to opine on that?
@AT: thanks returned, though not necessary. In answer to your queries: a firm NO
on both counts. In the first instance I don’t hold with the need to discuss Dorothy’s childhood ad nauseam or to the exclusion of any relevant SM related topics. As for the second, it has always been my policy to identify myself as myself ‘john sanders’ (sans slanders), excepting on rare occasions when I’m apt to post with a more appropriate and definitive ‘gotcha back’ (tit for tat) call sign which did not apply in the “Jo Blow” instance.
@ Pat, @ Poppins,
I wonder if either of you think that the girls I’ve circled in these comparison photos of the debs and DR fiancé Swain (cut off on right) are one and the same. Each colored circle corresponds to what I think could be the same woman. Both of these women are my top picks for the DR in the deb photo, based on my theory of the debs being arranged alphabetically and D being #9 in the newspaper list. If the girl in the peach-colored circle standing next to Swain (cut off) is a DR, then she’s likely not our DR. I’m guessing the same could be said for the woman in the fuschia-colored circle, as it seems she, too, might have been dating or engaged to an army or airforce man. The connections between the debs and the military seem strong, based on other research you’ve both found, or am I off-base here (pun slightly-intended)?
https://imgur.com/a/5JieBgV
David Morgan: It’s not out of order to suggest Dorothy may have been in another relationship after having left poor Carl Webb in Sept. 1946 and her taking up with Geoffrey Lockyer four years later. It be reasonable also to assume that a city girl like Doff was unlikely to have settled in Butte prior to her man setting up business there in ’51. It be indeed more likely that she had, upon arrival in S.A. moved to a regional hub in suburbia where she could ply her casual trade or seek help from rich kinfolk in the form of the Bennetts or the staid and very clannish Phillips late of Glenelg. Rather easy to see our Dorothy buddying up with war widow childless Nancy Phillips who shared a secluded beachfront abode with electronics engineer (familiar) brother-in-law just fifty yards from X marks the spot on Somerton Beach. Whether the ladies might later aided & abetted George? Phillips off himself be not for us to know, judge or speculate upon. Somerton Man was probably not short of a quid and it does need to be said that it didn’t take long for Nan to tie tie the knot with ex RAAF officer candidate Ernest McRea Barton nor for pal Doff to get em off for her to become an item with whoremongering cad Geoff L.
@AT,
accessing ancestry via libraries is a good idea. One woman who thought she was my great-niece had attended a library genealogy course. Free courses in local libraries might be an idea.
My theory of the door locks would suggest Dorothy was locking him out of the property before 7pm like some curfew. He may have gone to a hotel some nights.
My contrary theory being that Carl locked his missus out so that he could get a good night’s sleep, in order that he wouldn’t have to put up with her incescent nagging about his bad habits; That being every concerned woman’s prerogative and rightly so.
@ AT,
I still think that first girl far left back row is Shirley Avenell (Mrs. R. Potter).
Her photo, kindly provided by Poppins, has confirmed my hunch.
Straight eyebrows, square chin.
Poppins thought she was too tall to be her but in the other photo she does look quite tall.
Perspective is everything!
https://imgur.com/a/RBD2ZjP
@ AT,
Regarding the locks…
Doff said Carl had removed the locks of her bedroom and the bathroom, so the logical assumption is that he was telling her that she would have no privacy inside the flat, meaning, ‘get out of here while you can’, not to mention the possibility of rape.
If this was true, and I don’t think she would lie to the Court, it was his way of telling her that he was in control and that she should do what he was asking her to do, i.e. leave the flat, otherwise her life could be in danger.
I’m not saying Carl was a violent macho type, but maybe he acted like that when he was under the influence of alchohol, ether, or other drugs, or maybe he just wanted her to ‘desert’ him so he wouldn’t need to pay maintenance.
If she had left the flat, she wouldn’t be able to take maintenance proceedings against him in the case of a divorce, so she waited until things got really bad and she had enough witnesses (neighbours, friends, hotel, mother, father, and St Kilda Road police constables) to back up her divorce request.
@ JS – JCR lived at St Michaels school when he worked there as the caretaker in the 1970s. His former home is now the kindergarten building. A friend, now deceased, worked briefly for the man who took on the role after JCR retired.
@ AT – I took the removal of the locks to refer to internal locks – eg on the bathroom and bedrooms, rather than external. You can get a reasonable idea of the size layout of the apartment from recent real estate photos of 63 Bromby Street. Most of the rooms seem to run off a central lounge area. https://www.property.com.au/vic/south-yarra-3141/bromby-st/3-63-pid-3039483/#mediaGallery
Dorothy was supposedly staying with the Campbells in Elsternwick but in 1946 Enid Wall was discharged from the WAAAF just before Dorothy was leaving Carl living in 16 Park St (flat 2), South Yarra. Just over 10 mins away. Did she go on holiday with Enid and her future Campbell husband in April 1946?
Was Dorothy at their wedding?
Enid Wall in uniform
https://imgur.com/a/x4TwJ5e
Actually, she looks like the image of the woman with Carl at Leo’s wedding.
jo: you seem to have developed the annoying habit on telling me things I know of and first posted on up to eighteen months ago; Like JCR’s post war residential set up which of course be so clearly defined on his two NAA files, including Margaret Thomas House (8 Marlton Cres., St Kilda on the the school grounds. That’s how I was first to come up with Dorothy Robertson having been a St. Michaels primary student in Dec., 1925… Capiche?
@David Morgan
You just can’t stop yourself from spreading disinformation can you?
On FB ITSM you repeat the outright lie that Papa Jack just sat in the car “while Carl abused his daughter”. How many times do I (or my close colleague Lord CoB) have to repeat myself/ourselves. From Doff’s affidavit:
“He [JCR] came in and the Respondent [CW] promised not to ill-treat me again. My father remained outside the flat until 3.30 am.”
What is it about the empirical evidence that you have difficulty with? Are you constitutionally unable to deal with facts that go against your preconceived ideas? You’re supposed to be a criminologist. Why not start acting like one?
Similarly Lord C pointed out to you on this thread on December 7, 2023 at 10:01 pm:
“As for the locks Carl removed them on the bathroom door and Doff’s bedroom door so that she had to place “a couch across the inside of my door” to stop him gaining access to her, and after one night of this she found accommodation in a hotel. We don’t know how long the locks were off the doors, it might only have been a day or two.”
And I still don’t think Siouxsie Sioux looks like Oslo Plaza Woman!
@All
No-one, despite my repeated requests, has come up with an explanation why Doff went into such detail about the marriage when nobody had seen or heard of Carl since at least late 1948, unless he ain’t the SM, or was like Banquo’s ghost at the feast and prompted dirty ol’ Geoff to blurt out:
“Avaunt! and quit my sight! let the earth hide thee!
Thy bones are marrowless, thy blood is cold;
Thou hast no speculation in those eyes
Which thou dost glare with!”
All she had to do was prove desertion.
See Lord CoB’s comment of December 7, 2023 as above for more refutations (he is one of the few people who still uses this word in its correct sense) of David Morgan’s ridiculous allegations about Doff.
“…your male chauvinism shows through in every word of your comment.”
Also his comment of December 9, 2023 (his 65th birthday) at 12:38 pm in response to DM’s remark about Doff that “She might have inherited money from her dad if she was a decent caring human being and not abusive as Lockyer said.”
“If you are relying on Geoff Lockyer for your hatred of Doff then you are truly lost…You completely misrepresented what Doff said in her affidavit to suit your misogynist agenda.”
In the light of his Lordship’s and my own frequent comments about sexism and misogyny on this site (worst perpetrator: Sanders) it is more than a little dispiriting to read that I am part of a “male team” (news to me) who “continue to fight over petty things”. I’m not part of ANY team, particularly one that includes Sanders, Morgan, Behrooz, Bowes and others!
Just to remind readers of the sort of filth JS indulges in, from Tbt:
“john sanders #
[A Facebook and CM contributor] gotta be 65 if she’s a day and a Limey non tubber to boot. You {Bowes] work on her all you like brother, just don’t expect me to look on.”
When Lord C complained about this type of remark here he got ZERO support from anyone and indeed sadly the maligned personage in this instance turned on him and not JS!
As he pointed out to Pat on December 5, 2023 at 11:04 am:
“I do take great offence at his {Sanders’] use of misogynistic putdowns to silence women. He constantly belittles, demeans, gaslights and viciously attacks female commenters here and elsewhere…I believe many women who used to comment here have stopped commenting or maybe many more who would comment are completely put off by such antics.”
It was also his Lordship who outed Curio as Mitch W, again on December 9, 2023 at 12:38 pm :
“@John Sanders
If you want to tell Mitch Whalmi summat I suggest you address your comments to Curio.”
This after Mitch had purloined (w/out acknowledgment) some photos for FB that old CoB had posted here and then tried to bamboozle the poor feeble minded fella with some nonsense about being a Webb (of the Somerset Wurzel variety) and some crap that he’d met Jessica Thomson way back when:
“Curio
on December 9, 2023 at 1:33 pm said:
@Lord CoB I am a Webb and stated on CM before it was announced he was family, ha ha. I am related to The Somerset Man and not SM. My nephew [Jarad] is a friended [sic] on FB and can be looked at as a blond contemporary version of Charles.
I met met Jo Thomson 35 years ago then handed her a copy of the famous book and mentioned I am a Webb. Her reaction was to yell for Robin to come meet me.”
An exasperated CoB could only whimper “Sorry mate, you’ve completely lost me now.” Life Lesson no. 326: Never trust someone who “likes” their own comments on FB as Mr Whalmi does.
Ever get the feeling you’re banging your head against a brick wall?
On second thoughts, this is probably Dorothy May Scott. Her photo is on Ancestry.
I can’t see her DOB, but DOD 2012 is right for her. Someone with access to Ancestry could confirm if it’s the right DOB (1919).
https://imgur.com/a/mZxgAkN
Le Pine Funerals
1096 Burwood Highway
Ferntree Gully, Victoria
Dorothy EVANS Obituary
Published by Legacy Remembers on May 8, 2012.
EVANS. – Dorothy May. Passed away peacefully at home on May 6, 2012 aged 93. Dearly loved wife of Maurice (dec.). Loved and loving mother of Allen, and Barrie and Jan. Loved Gran of Kelly and Joel, Belinda and Simmo, and Mel and Alton. Great Gran of Ashlee, Jessie, Tayla, Mia, Abby, Hudson and Logan. She will be sadly missed.
@ John Sanders,
I can only assume, then, that “Jo Blow” was Curio/Mitch.
————-
@ David Morgan,
Thanks for seconding my suggestion of trying to access Ancestry thru libraries. There’s much one can avail oneself of for free with their use!
Thanks, also, for chiming in with your theory of the locks. Like Jo and Pat, tho’, I think Charlie was removing locks from the inside doors, not outside ones.
————
@ Pat,
I’m going to go have another look at your posts about Shirley Avenell/Mrs. R. Potter. Perhaps my comparison pics are headed for the trash heap!
Your answer to my question about the locks has given me much to think about. I’m especially struck by your observation that, “If she had left the flat, she wouldn’t be able to take maintenance proceedings against him in the case of a divorce.” Like you, I think she was making every effort (for the most part) to be truthful in her affidavit.
When thinking about the question of the locks, I came up with the following idea. Trigger warning here! What I’ve written below may be difficult to read. Here goes: I’m wondering if C could have been experiencing temporary periods of paranoid schizophrenia, and that he may have removed all the locks on the doors because he was thinking about killing D. (Sorry. Probably jarring to read!) I think maybe C was using barbiturates, alcohol, and ether to treat temporary psychotic episodes because there were no psychiatric drugs available for that purpose back then, apart from in-treatment hospitalization at a psychiatric facility. Instead, barbiturates were often used to tamp down psychotic episodes, or so I’ve read. I think it’s possible that neither C nor D knew or understood what might have been ailing C, and that D didn’t fully comprehend the danger she was in, especially if the psychotic episodes were fleeting and more or less controlled by the barbiturates. Regular use of barbiturates could also explain C’s long stretches in bed. Paranoid schizophrenia could account for the knife incident at cards, the curtains-on-fire incident, and the time(s) C came into D’s bedroom and stood over her threateningly. Maybe he was imagining killing her, but was sane enough not to go thru with it. I have more thoughts on this theory if anyone’s interested. It’s not one I wanted to embrace, but I think it could explain all the things I’ve found so puzzling in D’s affidavit, including why C removed all the locks on the doors.
———-
@ Jo,
Yes, I agree that the locks were removed from the inside doors. Can’’t see why C would have taken them off the external ones.
Wow, totally cool to have those photos of the flat! Thanks so much for sharing them. Last time I saw pics of it, it looked hopelessly gloomy. Now it looks quite inviting! Hope it looked that way when C and D were there.
BTW, I saw pics of a beautiful little church online that’s just down the street from the flat in the middle of the block or so. I bet you’ve biked by it before. Looks like a lovely place to duck into for a moment or two of peace and quiet!
@AT,
I can well imagine Jo Blow being a closet misogynist themselves; some nerd who changes names and genders at will to conceal their agenda and true identity. The someone almost certainly working class English and a person who plays at being a morals champion, catching out those who offend the norms of on line decency, yet be plainly the worst offender of all. I guess our Moderater would have a good idea of said offenders ID and so might like to weigh in on behalf of the first wrongly accusedm giving a yeh or nay (not non commital) response so to keep within the rules of fair blog management discretion. That OK with you Steve H of GB!
https://imgur.com/a/v9vFGTa
@ AT – here is some info on the church – St Thomas Aquinas, from photographs I took last year. It has an interesting Viennese connection.
I have been looking at the Robertson clan’s photos on WikiTree, kindly provided by Bruce Bennett, and this is my first draft of a possible resemblance between Dorothy and her ancestors.
I’m still trying to find photos of the Stratford family members (apart from Alice).
I have added my debutante candidate for Dorothy (if it’s her), although the other possible candidate (Poppins’ hunch) also shares some similarities.
I think her aund Robina looks similar to my candidate, although the striking blue eyes (or green?) shared by John Comber, Maude, and Robina is not there (or is it? the photo resolution is not good enough).
If Dorothy is not in the debubantes’ photo, maybe she could have looked a bit like her great-aunt Mary “Mill” Bennett (nee Robertson), ‘the “Belle of the Ball” in the early 1880s in Ballarat, brown eyed, very sweet and very religious,’ based on her ‘ghost image’ in Leo’s wedding photo.
I’m quite confident that the man in the photo, along with John Russel Keane, Gerald Thomas Keane, Leo Keane and Irene Gray, and possibly Freda Keane (nee Webb) or Irene’s mother wearing a dark hat, is Carl Webb.
Mary’s nose is strikingly different from the other female Robertsons, and maybe the weddding photo has distorted Dorothy’s nose appearance, but I find the overall resemblance of their noses and chins quite interesting.
https://imgur.com/a/trgZuAM
Bob Nowak #
By playing the accusory deep fake misogynistic card along unqualified support of the FB team’s stance on the truth of Dorothy’s statement of facts in her 1952 divorce petition (thanks Behrooz), you be showing your true colours in a way that only a nut like Trump could compete with, albeit in a contrary manner. By taking aim on Derrek Abbott’s proposer Mitch Whalmi @Curio @ Jo Blow? so as to point the finger of blame away from Steve H. Maybe then you can hide behind a new fake identity and go forward in the other direction. I do get the impression that you’re concerned (rightly so), that you might have backed the wrong horse and wishing that you had not been so hasty to play the Carl Webb/SM card. Glad I’m not in your not so comfortable shoes Bob, @ Jo Blow way to go.
@AH,
We know from Ruth Balint (and PL’s research) the Melbourne wife of an electrician phoned the police in 1948 saying her missing husband knew the ROC. It implies DJW could have been aware SM was dead or at least had a suspicion. It would explain her detailed exposition on locks and her dad sitting in the car leaving precisely at 3.30am – not 3.31am. If roadmender JCR was anything like my wife’s dad no-one ever returned for a 2nd attempt.
We don’t know why the police and then Feltus saw this potential Dorothy evidence and thought it was the wrong guy. If we could view their response to it we might find out what she said in her evidence e.g. he was blond and six feet. But it is telling Feltus chose to ignore this real evidence in favour of far more tenuous links.
It is also curious how so many characters who were involved in the modern plot like Ruth and the pleasant hair plucker have gone dark on social media and email and you end up trying to contact their pals. The pleasant hair plucker not only has gone dark but changed her whole life direction from DNA to law. Like you wake up one morning and decide science and microscopes were not for you and you need to become an extrovert and stand in a court.
Re: the OPW doppelgangers – I used facial ID software to search and then early versions of facial ID matching to check. So by modern standards they may only have 50 identical facial measurements and not the full 100 the same.
But if you found 50 similarities between two people (same colour eyes, hair, same teeth etc) you would think they were quite similar.
Pot-n-kettle black…about the criminology research. At least I don’t put flowers on statues like some crazy Elvis fan.
The internal locks plot suggests she was the suicidal one not Carl. Remember she hadn’t worked for 3 years saying she was sick yet well enough for those weekend breaks and late-night cinema. If JCR was a tough nut and with access to a road gang of even tougher nuts he wouldn’t need to sit in the car. Carl would have got the message with a stare. If Carl physically kicked Dorothy out of the house he would have been buried under a Melbourne runway. The fact her father left nothing to her in his will suggests she was ‘the bad-un’ not Carl or he thought she was not mentally competent to manage money.
I’m wondering after reading Richard D’s post on “Identifying the Somerton Man” whether the link between Dorothy & the Campbells of 69 Murphy Street, Elsternwick was Enid Mary Wall, the fiancé of Alexander Campbell b. 1923, son of John and Jessie. Enid, b. 1922 in Queensland, was involved in WWII WAAF recruitment and lived at 2/16 Park Street, South Yarra before moving to 69 Murphy St. This is fairly close to Bromby Street. The old #8 tram, which ran down Domain Road, before turning into Park Street and then Toorak Road, had stops outside and across the road from #16 Park Street, which is close to the corner of Toorak Road. I can imagine two young women of a similar age catching the same tram on a regular basis becoming familiar and perhaps getting to know each other over time… That’s how my mother met one of her current best friends!
@ AT,
Regarding ‘the woman in the fuschia-colored circle’, she is standing between 410744 FO J. P. Sparks (Sparkes) DFC of Hawthorn, Vic, and a non-military, probably English man on behalf of Buckingham Palace.
Jack Pearce Sparkes married in 1944 Kathleen May Bentley ( 21 Feb 1926) in Leicestershire, England.
So he was already married when this photo was taken (16 Oct 1945).
Her address on his NAA file reads: “W. R. N. S. quarters. Burdon Hotel. Weymouth, Dorset, Eng. Acr (?) Pay 23/1/45”
I suppose the woman you have circled is either her or the wife of the English man or another employee of Buckingham Palace.
The other woman between Wing Commander J. R. N. Davenport DSO DFC and Bar GM of Blakehurst, NSW, and 410791 FO D. H. Swain DFC of Seaholme, Vic., does look like the debutante on the far let back row, but she’s probably not Dorothy Daphne Robertson based on the fact that her parents were living at Seaholme in 1937, as per Poppins’ research, so unlikely to be a debutante at Camberwell.
Has anybody been able to eliminate the possibliity of Dorothy Robertson being Phyllis Dorothy Robertson, b. 1916 at Balwyn?
I can’t find any Victoria marriage register for her or her brother, Rodney Neil, b.1920 at Hawthorn.
Parents: Violet Muriel Stanbridge and Frederick Robertson.
I know most of the debutantes have been called by their first names, but there’s at least one exception, Valerie Beard was Margaret Valerie, probably called Valerie because her mom was also Margaret.
@PAT,
I can understand the feminist criminological perspective on Carl and Dorothy where Dorothy is the victim of a misogynistic bully. Dorothy the perfect victim. But Carl wasn’t married before. That is important. If he was a bullying guy who wanted to be looked after by a wife he would have married someone earlier. After all who was going to cook his meals?
Has a bully ever committed suicide after a deliberate plot to hide his ID?
Carl’s concern was that he needed to work and his mother needed care. He may have been a cheapskate not wanting to pay a nurse to look after his mother and expecting his wife to assist for free. There is no evidence of him drinking heavily before committing suicide.
The only evidence we have of lying is from Dorothy. She said she was a chemist and foot specialist – but no-one has found any evidence (so far!). She said she was living in Bute – but no person had a memory of her living there. The house wasn’t built until perhaps 1953. Why did she give that address and not Port Wakefield? She also lied about where she lived not mentioning Domain road. She also seemed to have lied about not knowing where Carls’ family lived.
As a teen, Carl had worked in the bakery likely from 4am and then attended evening classes from perhaps 6pm. He would also have books to read, exams to pass. He was burning his candle at both ends. It shows he was hard-working. Whereas Dorothy only worked 18 months after marriage until 1946. During WW2, her potential future contact/friend Enid Wall was busy promoting the WAAAF all over Australia trying to recruit women. That was typical of the business of women during WW2 it was either munitions, nursing or miltary.
@Pat, the Shirley Mavis Robertson from the 1939 debutantes ball, I believe she never married – she was born on 6 Jan 1921. Her sister Dorothy Helen Robertson (Cooper) was born on 19 May 1924. She was a midwife, Reg No.9744 …. I guess 1924 would make her too young to be a debutante before her sister …. would still like a photo if anyone can find, but I reckon we can rule her out of the 1938 debs, hey.
No Sanders, I ain’t posting as Jo Blow or Jo the Crossing Sweeper or Jo Public or owt else. But your accusation is only what I have come to expect from your low quality, unsubstantiated and malicious interventions here and elsewhere. Anyway GC says that you, Bowes and David Morgan are trolls but he doesn’t mention me which is only fair and proper for a man of my upstanding GB based moral character.
A “nut like Trump”? You’re the reactionary fabulist, mythomaniac, historical revisionist, slanderer, cheat, hypocrite, charlatan. fraudster, faker, deceiver, shyster, blowhard, boaster, braggart, rabble-rouser and shit-stirrer round here. And you can check with NP about your Jo Blow claim any time you damn well please although I suspect he’s laughing up his sleeve about it right now.
David Morgan isn’t just a troll, but also a malign, obtuse, irredeemable liar who just can’t accept the information or documentation that is put right in front of his eyes, however many times his error is pointed out. It doesn’t matter how often he keeps saying that JCR was too frit to tackle Carl IT’S A LIE David! Just because your wife’s dad was a thuggish brute who sorted people out simply cos they looked at him in the wrong way don’t judge everyone else by the same abysmal standards. “If Carl physically kicked Dorothy out of the house he would have been buried under a Melbourne runway” indeed. I suppose you think your father-in-law is/was Don Corleone.
Referring to Colleen Fitzpatrick as a “pleasant hair plucker” is just childish, disrespectful and beneath contempt. Nearly down to Behrooz’s standard in fact.
“The internal locks plot suggests she was the suicidal one not Carl.”
Really? Have you completely lost touch with reality? I know I have, but still, you’re the one who claims to be the criminologist! And just what the hell have Elvis fans got to do with it?
“We’re caught in a trap, I can’t walk out
Because I need to solve this case, boy
Why can’t you see what you’re doin’ to me
When you don’t believe a word I say?
We can’t go on together
With suspicious minds (With suspicious minds)
And we can’t build our dreams
On suspicious minds”
I note that another contributor has now picked up on my perceptive analysis of Carl as a psychotic character, at least as he is described by Doff. However as a “self-identified” male I know won’t get any credit from that quarter as they have previously stated that they are “a little peeved w/ your [ie Carl Webb’s] sex at the moment”.
I notice that some members of the self-identified “female team” are only too ready to express extravagant and hyperbolic praise for those they regard as part of their clique but on a purely sexist basis ignore and ostracise those who fall outside their “in-group”. Personally I have never gone in for criticising or disregarding anyone on the basis of their identity status and never will. Ignoring the comments of others is another way of occasioning violence on their humanity in the same way as abusing and trolling them, only more subtle and therefore insidious.
David Morgan: might I add that there were plenty of other ways for an outgoing lass, not able to accept strict prevailing parental protocols, ready to leave home and to take full advantage of exciting opportunities ready for the taking in wartime Melbourne. That is if one was prepared to accept the the excesses of over paid and ovrr sexed tough polite young American GI Jos lusting for the companionship of pretty gals; Just like the ones they used to know, back home in Boise Idaho.
@ David Morgan,
I don’t think we can infer anything about Doff and Carl’s personalities apart from the bits and pieces revealed by Doff in the affidavit. That is a real document and lying to the Court would be risky.
Feminist? WTF? I was just trying to explain a possible reason why Carl had removed the locks from his wife’s bedroom and bathroom doors.
Who has called him a ‘misogynistic bully’, ‘bulying guy”? Those are your words, not mine.
There are many reasons why someone would chose to marry later in life… and it doesn’t mean anything regarding personality traits, it could be just circumstantial, life is a complex business.
`Has a bully ever committed suicide after a deliberate plot to hide his ID?’
How the heck would I know? Or you, for that matter?
What is the evidence that he has committed suicide?
What deliberate plot? Removing tags from hand-me-downs?
‘Carl’s concern was that he needed to work and his mother needed care.’
How do you know that? And if it was, why would he marry? He was concerned but not able to provide care for her mother, so he needed a wife? Possibly, but what does that say about him or Dorothy?
‘There is no evidence of him drinking heavily before committing suicide.’
Two problems: you don’t know if he has committed suicide, and absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.
‘The only evidence we have of lying is from Dorothy’
Dorothy said she was a foot specialist in the marriage certificate (1941) and a pharmacist and chiropodist in the affidavit (1951).
In the 1949 electoral roll she was listed as a chiropodist.
She could have trained as a pharmacist during the whole decade to call herself a pharmacist in 1951.
When I was browsing through the Victoria Registers of Nurses looking for Ruby, some nurses had only got a registration a decade after their training.
Again, absence of evidence… there are a number of reasons why the evidence hasn’t been found yet, she could have been trained as a chiropodist in a pharmacy, before the legislation demanding a registration had been put in place. And I don’t know but I suspect the legislation was different in other States.
Regarding Bute as an address, I suppose her solicitors were being paid by Geoff and his address was Bute.
Sands and McDougall lists him in Bute, no specific address. One horse town and all that.
One possible reason is that she and Geoff were ‘in transit’ in June 1951, with no fixed address.
She didn’t need to mention Domain Road, where she lived briefly in 1941, 11 years before the affidavit. The only thing she needed to mention was her last address, 63 Bromby Street.
She didn’t necesserarily need to know where Carl’s sisters were living in June 1951, giving the fact that she hadn’t seen them at least since 13 Sep 1946, when she left the flat at Bromby Street. Almost 5 years… give her a break.
Carl as a young boy has abolutely nothing to do with his doings as an adult, you seem to disregard that more than a decade had passed, a world war had happened, he had lost his father, brother, and nephew, and his mother was seriously ill. These things can mess up with a person’s mind.
‘Dorothy has worked only 18 months after the marriage.’
But do you know why?
Maybe Carl, as many men back then (and some to this day) didn’t want his wife working instead of looking after the home and the husband.
She had trained as a chiropodist and she went back to business as soon as he has stopped providing for her.
What other women did during the war is not a good argument to judge someone’s character.
Same goes for judging Carl for not enlisting.
If their marriage was a convenient one to avoid conscription, both had to gain from it.
Maybe your comment was supposed to be directed to AT? Hahaha.
I really wish more commenters were interested in posting facts.
As I said, I was just replying to AT’s specific question about the locks. We have no way of knowing if this has happened, but judging by the police involvement in 3 occasions, I think it’s quite possible, she would have the constables, neighbours, Alice, John Comber as witnesses and 3 police ocurrence reports.
I have no intention of analysing the psychological and sociological aspects of this case. Maybe when we know what really happened we can move on to that, but not before, s’il vous plait.
@ AT,
The posh lady in the London photo is Wing Commander J. R. N. Davenport’s wife.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/UK317
David Morgan: I’m wondering whether or not you think it might effect opinion, if for instance our FB commenters were confronted with realisation that the person they have become so fixated upon, was found to have a rap sheet as long as Steve H’s known list of NDPs, going back to at least 1938 when s said offender first came under adult court jurisdiction. Wouldn’t faze me or alter my own leanings on the fundamentals of Tamam Shud/Somerton Man one iota.
@ Jo,
Interesting history of the church. Think I prefer Thomas Payne’s restoration to the original. Too bad Charlie never got to see it. Love the name (“The Chapel of Ease”)! The pics below of the way it looks today made me fall in love with it:
https://imgur.com/a/XbwCaC1
https://imgur.com/a/Jj1lSNx
—————
@ Pat,
Interesting seeing the collage with many of the Robertson pics, and great to have a big pic of Mary “Mill” Bennett! She sounds like a lovely woman. There are other pics of the Robertson clan at geni.com as you no doubt know, but many of them are small and difficult to make out. I wondered if D could have looked a little like Maude in her Scottish clan costume that was posted some time ago. So many attractive women in the Robertson clan!
Can you refresh my memory and remind me what the evidence is that the ghost image in the 2nd photo you posted is Dorothy Robertson?
Also not sure which photo you’re referencing when talking about the many Keanes you listed, along w/ Carl Webb. Maybe a larger version of the Leo Keane wedding pic that I may have missed? Am afraid I was never sold on the idea that C or D were in that wedding photo posted some time ago, but maybe you can convince me.
Am a little confused. I thought you felt that the woman in the back-row far-left that I circled in peach was Shirley Avenell. If you think so, I agree that that could be Ms. Avenell, based on my theory that the girls are arranged alphabetically and in reading order. Your ID of her bolsters that theory. The woman that I now feel is the best candidate for the DR that’s in the photo is the woman in the fuchsia circles, but I’m not yet convinced that she’s our DR or that our DR is in the photo. It’s possible that your candidate for our D is the DR in the photo, but if we’re following the theory that the women are arranged alphabetically and in reading order, then you would have to split the photo down the middle and imagine two Z-shaped columns that meet in the middle. Perhaps that’s the case. There does seem to be a slight gap in the middle of the women, so perhaps that is how they were arranged. Would it be likely that they were arranged that way? Not sure. Maybe . . .
I think this is the sister of Shirley Robertson ….. what do you reckon, is she in the debutante photo …. hope not! Maybe there’s a better photo somewhere.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/231146019?searchTerm=jean%20auld%20dorothy%20robertson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243548042?searchTerm=jean%20auld%20dorothy%20robertson
Pretty sure I’m on the money with the Wallaby Creek gang comprising labourers of JCR’s volunteer civil construction team deployed on RAAF contracts. These entailed laying of wartime airstrips at the conflurnce Coolalie and Wallaby Cks. sixty miles south West of Darwin near the former WW2 military base at Batchelor. One thing to remark is it was no place for a good lady of Alice Robertson’s type as has been speculated upon. No doubting a younger woman like Dorothy might have found ways to keep occupied “on the wallaby” in those days when men were men and others could please themselves…That sound fair to your reasoning Ann O & co.
@Jo,
There are pictures of Edith Mary Wall/Campbell. Her newspaper images show her as a WAAAF recruiter though officially a clerk involved in stenography and typing.
https://imgur.com/NvoCa8m
It is likely Edith would have seen Dorothy as a potential candidate for the WAAAF or other military service. She may have tried to recruit her and then became her best friend. Her and Alexander’s demob in 1946 ties in nicely to Dorothy spending time with a young couple in 1946 and then she goes to live with Alexander’s mother.
I think Alexander may have been in the navy.
@ Jo,
Can you tell me, please, how to access Richard D’s post, “Identifying the Somerton Man,” as well as other older posts? Haven’t been able to figure out how to do that here.
The possible Campbell connection jumped out at me, too. There’s a “Councillor Edward Campbell and Mrs. Campbell” mentioned in the “Table Talk” article about the ball that was posted earlier. May or may not be the same Campbells.
Bob Nowak: I strongly object to your reference to my being a “rabble rouser” and humbly beseach thee to withdraw the comment forthwith with apologies or face the consequences. By puting my moral standing above that of David Morgan I’ll put that down to a simple lack of perception of my true deficiencies on your part. I’m quite prepared to overlook the blunder on this occassion, just take more care is all I ask … y’hear mofo?
@ Nick, can you delete the previous post? I have forgotten to delete the : from the link and I don’t want it to be trapped in your spam folder. Thanks!
@ AT,
The woman in the fuchsia circle is probably an English woman from Buckingham palace staff. She is between the non-military man and Sparkes, which was already married.
The other woman is the wife of Wing Commander Jack Napier Davenport.
“During his service overseas, Davenport married Sheila McDavid at St Cuthbert’s Church in Saltcoats in Scotland on 8 January 1944. Davenport returned to Sydney with his new wife and a baby son in March 1946.” (Wikipedia).
Regarding Leo Keane’s wedding photo, it’s in the link I have posted above along with the Robertson’s clan and my debutante candidate for Dorothy. Just scroll down.
The full picture is available on David Morgan’s website, I can’t find the link at the moment, but that’s all there is to see.
I’ll try to find the link of David’s website or if you’re reading this, David, would you be so kind as to post it?
I think blond/mousy haired Carl is definitely there, and the logical assumption would be that the lady in the background next to him is Dorothy.
Jonh “Jack” Russell Keane is wearing his RAAF uniform at the left side of the newly married couple (Leo and Irene) and Gerald “Jerry” Thomas Keane is at the right side. A bit of a dark hat is far right just beside Irene (it could be anyone but I guess it’s either the mother of the bride – Agnes Barbour Gray (nee Wilson) or the mother of the groom – Freda Grace Keane (nee Webb).
That photo was taken in 1942, and Carl’s hair is strikingly similar to the family photo of 1929.
I wonder if the pictures in the 1948/49 newspapers were of a bad quality making his hair look darker or if he had spent a lot of time (between Nov 1946 and Nov 1948) in a place where the sun don’t shine.
He could have dyed his hair, but I suppose that would be evident during the 6 months his body was kept in the fridge? I know nothing about hair colouring (yep, I’m a weirdo)!
Regarding the alphabetical order of the debutantes, the photo of Dorothy May Scott is available on Ancestry and she is the girl just next to my candidate for Dorothy with the mayor between them. I suppose Thelma Malcolm is not positioned in an alphabetical order either, so maybe that was not the case.
This is my first attempt to identify them in the photo, everyone is welcomed to correct me.
https://imgur.com/a/uX06wxb
@ Poppins,
I think we can rule out Sister Dorothy Robertson as a debutante, she was too young (14) to attend a debutante ball, and even if that was possible, I think none of them look so young, and those eyebrows are quite distinctive!
The game is still on!
Dorothy Robertson, sister of Norma Beatrice Ellen (b. 2 April 1921) and Robert Frederick Emanuel (b. 1922, d. same year, 5 m/o, at Bayswater).
Parents: Beatrice Olive French (b. 1898 at Footscray, to William Alfred and Ellen Susan West) and Robert Charles Robertson (4 candidates on Vic BDM), married in 1919.
Beatrice’s mother, Ellen Susan French (nee West) died in 1930 at Ringwood, aged 71. Norma and Dorothy are mentioned as her granchildren.
FRENCH. — In loving memory of my dear
mother, who passed away on the 5th Feb-
ruary, 1930.
A tender chord of memory
Is sadly touched to-day.
Loving thoughts of my dear mother
Will never fade away.
— Inserted by her daughter and son-in-law,
Beatie and Bob, and grandchildren, Norma
and Dorothy Robertson.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203174282?searchTerm=%22dorothy%20robertson%22%20%22kew%22#
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Sat 13 Nov 1937
Page 24
Engagements Announced
Kathlyn Dorothy, younger daughter of
Mr and Mrs R. C. Robertson, Station
Street, Camberwell, to Jack Sargent,
eldest son of Mr and Mrs A. Trivett,
Caroline Street, South Yarra.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244539576?searchTerm=%22mrs.%20R.%20C.%20Robertson%22%20%22daughter%22#
They married in 1939 (Vic BDM 1160/1939), her name spelled Dorothy Kathlyn.
In 1950, Jack Sargent was a candidate for the office of Alderman for the Yenonna Ward of the municipality of Fairfield, NSW.
The Biz (Fairfield, NSW : 1928 – 1972)
Thu 9 Nov 1950
Page 12
Municipality of Fairfield.
Municipality of Fairfield.
ORDINARY ELECTION
OF ALDERMEN.
NOTICE is hereby given that I have
this day nominated the following per
sons as candidates for the office of
Alderm for the respective Wards of
this Municipality hereunder mentioned:
YENNORA WARD
BODYCOTT, William James
COX, James William
HANCOCK, Horace Albert
MATTHEWS, Herbert Stewart
SEAMAN, Samuel Austin
TRIVETT, Jack Sargent
WOLFENDEN, William Leonard
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76292102?searchTerm=%22jack%20sargent%22%20%22trivett%22#
If Mrs and Mr. R. C. Robertson are her parents, and she was born after Norma (‘younger daughter’), she must have been born before 1924, otherwise she would have married aged 15. I can’t find any Dorothy Kathlyn or similar born in 1922-23 on Vic BDM.
If someone (Poppins!) can find a photo of her as Kathlyn Dorothy or Dorothy Kathlyn, or Mrs. J. S. Trivett, it would be helpful to rule her out (or not, sigh).
Jack Sargent (Sargeant, sic) Trivett died in NSW in 1967.
Parents: Albert Trivett (d. 1938) and Alice Lois White (d. 1957) both interred at Fawkner Memorial Park. Albert was born in London, England, about 1885 to Mary Sargent Vye and Simeon Trivett.
Dorothy Kathlyn probably married again after Jack Sargent’s death, I can’t find her under the surnames Robertson and Trivett.
@ AT,
‘Identifying the Somerton Man’ is Derek Abbott’s FB group. RichardD has posted the same info there that he has posted above.
https://ciphermysteries.com/2023/11/17/on-the-trail-of-dorothy-robertson#comment-501088
There are tennis courts directly across the st. from Enid Mary’s flat at 16 Park St. Courts there appear to be grass. Bromby St. flat is within walking distance. Perhaps this is how D and Enid Mary met.
@Pat, Jean Auld is the one with the magnificent eyebrows, Dorothy’s the other one, found one more pic of her, but yeah, I don’t think she was the type to bother with the frivolities of debutante balls …. she sounds fab. Re Kathlyn Dorothy Robertson, if she was engaged in 1937 I don’t think she’d be bothering with a debutante ball, will look for pic though.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/49715332?searchTerm=victorian%20nursing%20sisters%20who%20passed
@ Poppins,
Engaged but not to be married until 1939…
@ Pat,
Thanks!
Is there a way to navigate to older posts here other than by selecting a given topic at right, hoping it’s the correct one, and scrolling backwards endlessly?
@AT,
There is a record of ‘a’ Enid Wall playing table tennis. But there may be 3 or 4 EWs. There was also a Mary Enid Wall. The real Enid seems to have been musical.
I think it is ‘likely’ Dorothy was pals with Enid or Alexander her future husband not the parents and that through that contact she got to sleep in Alexander’s parent’s house.
Their demob in 1946 is an amazing coincidence when Dorothy goes on holiday with a couple and that likely the same couple played cards in their home. They were young and wouldn’t want the serious old man Carl coming with them on their holiday.
One can now see the baneful result of Sanders and Morgan’s vitriolic attacks on the female contributors here – or supposedly female as no-one knows who is really behind the comments (heck, John Sanders might actually be a human being instead of the sewer dwelling reptile he presents himself as) – in that you have a complete breakdown in communication between the putative “female team” and the reputed “male team”, barring the sort of spat between DM and PL over the epistemological validity of a feminist approach in the, as Behrooz would put it, hermeneutic analysis of Doff’s affidavit.
Although I have always tried to call out sexism here as on other platforms I really couldn’t care less if the only people who respond to or acknowledge my comments are (supposedly) male. And even there we are mainly talking about Sanders, the belly crawling slime serpent who can’t open his trap without spraying his mephitic venom in all and every direction. I don’t have NDPs by the way John, they are noms de guerre!
Since you asked for proof on my Max Beaumont observations Mr S (although slithering in your malignant fetor you will accuse me of simply regurgitating old posts again – actually it’s called holding people to account for their words, y’know, not throwing baseless allegations around like confetti which is your modus operandi in the “post-truth” universe which you befoul by your rancid presence) here it is:
” john sanders
on December 17, 2020 at 7:18 am said:
…Had the Angas St. CIB ckecked [sic] on his [ie Jim’s] brother Max their hackles would certainly have been raised in noting that his juvenile record included agravated [sic] sexual assault (rape) on a young lady, for which he was sentenced to incarceration til [sic] aged eighteen.”
“john sanders
on December 26, 2020 at 2:54 pm said:
They [the “perfumed fairies” at Angas Street] never checked on uncle Max’s weird military record or his rap sheet for being a potential suspect based on his gazetted sexual assault of a teenaged girl in 1945 at 15 years of age. ”
“john sanders
on May 13, 2021 at 10:39 pm said:
Then there was Jim’s younger rudder Maxwell John Beaumont who seems to have been a sexual deviant of some note in his teens. Whether Nancy had any cause to distrust him around the little women in her house we’re not to know, though he was accused of being complicit in the abductions, according to press reports in the seventies.”
It simply won’t wash to blame Byron D for the initial mistake over Max’s identity. You’re the one who turned his brief mention into a degenerate campaign of defamatory disinformation you doodle-headed dill. You really dumped in your daks this time, eh cobber? You say “T’was me that twigged to the blunder by a well meaning informant.” Oh, er, like more than two years after you started your crusade of hate:
” John Sanders
on February 8, 2023 at 5:13 am said:
Byron Deveson: I think you might agree that your Maxwell John Beaumont is not Jim’s brother Max who did a short stint in the Army in 1947 prior to Jim’s return from Japan.”
And on Nancy’s leading role in the “disappearance”:
“john sanders
on December 22, 2020 at 11:30 am said:
…Somehow or other I think tha [sic] poor Nancy Beaumont had come to the belief, whether real or imagined that her babies were in harms way in some form that we should not try to fathom, the passion of motherhood being something of an inigma [sic] in itself. I believe that she had put a deal of thought into the planning and execution of her children’s disappearance, with some female involvement, but mostly with help of her former husband or partner [name redacted].”
If I named the (six?) people you have defamed with your phantasmal vituperation and benighted invective my comment would go straight to spam and I’m not quite the greenhorn you take me for in that respect. Llewsons?
Yeah right Nhoj Srednas! I agree with Deni on BigFooty when she describes you as “some zorb in another forum” even if I don’t actually know what a zorb is. I also concur with YaNaNooNaNooNaNooNaNa portraying “The story about a friend of Nancy Beaumont secreting the kids away ‘for their own safety'” as a “piece of far-fetched gossip.” And in honour of the person who has the Residents eyeball as an avatar over there here’s a fitting musical interlude for you John – ‘Dumbo the Clown’:
https://youtu.be/9z2ABPHmU8U?si=sFbCW4ISTtOZ9ZIp
As for withdrawing my “rabble rouser” insult you can stick your “face the consequences” threat where the sun don’t shine. I hope you take all this in the unfriendly spirit in which it was meant my dearly despised ophidian foe.
PS I haven’t got an opinion on Wallaby Creek – or perhaps you could say I don’t give a toss, and Ann tells me that neither does she – but when I first arrived in Australia in March 1982 I stayed at the Nedlands house of Prof Basil Sansom of ‘The Camp at Wallaby Cross – Aboriginal fringe dwellers in Darwin’ fame. But “Wallaby Cross” was actually Knuckeys Lagoon, “a group of abandoned sheds and self-built humpies along the Stuart Highway, twelve kilometres from the city centre, near the Berrimah crossroads.”
Wrong song linked in my previous comment but who cares? At least it’s The Residents!
As they sing in that little number, ‘Diskomo’:
“Neki Neki Neki, Neki Neki Neki, Neki Neki Neki
Neki Neki Neki, Neki Neki Neki, Neki Neki Neki
Nom nik nak brik back tin tan tango
Eat Our Dust
Whim wam whim wo tik tak tik to
Or Eat Rust
Comme comme comme comme, Comme comme comme comme
Kick Some Sauce
Money Money Money Money, Money Money Money Money
Lick Some Nuts”
@Pat I reckon we can rule that Dorothy out, she was born in 1917 it seems, shown as Dory Kathleen in the BDM list. Sadly her little brother Leonard drowned just after Christmas down at Rye in 1927 – the parents thought he was with his other children but he’d wandered off. Looks like the field has narrowed down to our Doff …. unless another Dorothy pops up from interstate or something
Miss E.M. Wall (1948) was into Pekingese dogs and horses. Like she had come into some money since 1946 and demob from the WAAAF. Though she looks older than 27. Perhaps there was another EM wall of Melbourne.
https://imgur.com/a/ERBbxn4
EM Wall bought her dog from Landeck kennels which only survived a short time – unless they switched from an Austrian name.
https://imgur.com/a/NHIu8XQ
I believe Carl’s sister may have been into bulldogs like Miss Wall. Symbolic of a nouveau riche like Wall with her horse and dog.
Possibly one owner of Landeck Kennels where the nouveau riche bought their exotic dogs and horses was jockey D. Fletcher.
@ Poppins,
Brilliant, thanks!
I’ve been thinking that the same way that Doff (born at Ballarat) was living at Balwyn in 1938, so could the other Dorothy Robertson born at Maryborough (Dorothy Alix Isabel, Dorothy Jean), Balmoral (Dorothy Heather), Carlton (Rose Dorothy Gwendolyn).
Sorry if they had already been ruled out (I can see a lot of activity on Trove), but if people don’t comment about their research on here, it’s impossible to know if they have been ruled out based on solid evidence.
Has Dorothy Robertson (no middle name), b. 1923 at Flemington to Gertrude Amelia Smith and Robert Henry Robertson, been ruled out? Too young, maybe? If she was born in Jan 1923, she would be 15.6 in July 1938. I wish I could buy all these births, deaths and marriages certificates, if they only were cheaper.
Bob Nowak: be more in sync. with the agenda had you had vented your nerdish spleen on the appropriate CM Jim Beamont thread rather than try to impress our impressive all girl FB Dorothy panel. They be not the slightest bit interested in the Beaumont kid’s strange disappearance and after all It isn’t part of their alternate SM diversion ploy unless you hadn’t noticed. Get with the game or take your case to the pathetic plodders over at Big Tootie and see what they reckon.
@ AT,
Yes, just type on google search “site:ciphermysteries.com” (within double quotation marks) and the word you want to search.
@ Poppins
Dorothy Kathleen Robertson (b. 1917) has married George Luke Ivicevich in Victoria in 1944.
George Luke Ivisevich (sic), born in 1916, Fremantle South, WA, to Ivan Ivisevich and Annie Rockl., Reg. 2700612.
Do you reckon she was too old to be in the debutante ball? I would like to see a photo to rule her out definitively.
Her name appears as Kathleen Dorothy in one family tree and the electoral rolls on Ancestry. Confusing!
The fact that she lived with her parents at 2 Station Street, Camberwell is significant, n’est-ce pas?
Dorothy Alix (Ailex) Isabel Robertson (b. 1920, Maryborough) married William Johnstone Purchase in 1943.
He lived at Bridge Road, Richmond, in 1936 at the age of 16.
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Sat 16 May 1936
Page 2
MAN AND BOY INJURED IN ACCIDENTS
MAN AND BOY INJURED
IN ACCIDENTS
Two persons sustained fractured legs
in suburban car accidents today.
William Purchase, 16, of Bridge Road,
Richmond, was struck by a car while
crossing Bridge Road, Richmond, and
Roy Dusting, 35, of Webster Street,
Burwood, was riding a motor cycle
which came into collision with a car
in Peel Street, North Melbourne.
Both were taken to Royal Melbourne
Hospital.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244727359?searchTerm=%22william%20purchase%22#
If her parents, Annie Dean and Peter McDonald Robertson, were living near Richmond around that time, she may be the debutante Dorothy Robertson.
@ Pat,
Would you mind very much providing an example of a post you found using the search method you described? All my attempts to do so have failed so far. (Perhaps Richard D’s post would be a good choice?)
Thanks in advance for your help, and for your kind response!
@ AT,
It’s just a general searching tool, nothing specific.
It does work with most of the posts on CM but for some reason it doesn’t work with this specific post (On the trail of Dorothy Robertson).
Perhaps Google is a bit slow these days! I’m sure Nick Pelling can clarifiy this.
@ Pat
Re Dorothy Robertson of Richmond vs Dorothy Robertson of Balywn – I’d go with our Dorothy. Both Maryborough & Richmond were fairly working class vs middle class Balwyn. (There’s a great book – Struggletown, by Janet McCalman on 20th century Richmond https://www.everand.com/book/494766967/Struggletown-Public-and-Private-Life-in-Richmond-1900-1965). I’ll revive my expired Ancestry subscription @ the weekend and see if there is an occupation listed for Peter McDonald Robertson…
You and Poppins and AT have done an amazing job on the deb photo!
AT – you are correct – there are tennis courts on Fawkner Park, opposite the intersection of Millswyn Street and Toorak Road West! They have been there since at least 1925, when the original sections of the building that currently houses the childcare centre, senior citizens centre and tennis club were built. We also know that a tennis racket was sold from 2/63 Bromby Street! (See Nick’s Small Ads post https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/27/carl-webbs-small-ads).
The original tennis club building had a small ballroom that was used in the 1930s and 40s (run by Teddy Maurice in the 1930s). It’s now the kindergarten room at Fawkner Park Childrens’ Centre. The kiosk also housed the Little Theatre Company in 1932-33, before the the Company moved to St Chad’s Church, in Martin Street, now St Martins Lane, which runs off Park Street (on the site of the current St Marins Youth Theatre). https://theatreheritage.org.au/on-stage-magazine/general-articles/item/219-melbourne-little-theatre (note there’s a great photo here of St Martins Theatre taken by Helmut Newton – a Viennese Bromby Street resident, discussed here on CM – https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/10/12/somerton-man-the-webb-v-webb-divorce-files – David Morgan Oct 2020!).
The childcare centre, adjacent to the tennis courts, began informally in 1943 when there was a demand for war time childcare for local working mothers. It was formally established in 1946. One of the founders, historian Marjorie Tipping, told me in conversation that this was partly in response to the number of “left behind children” of WWII servicemen, especially Americans, many of whom possibly never knew they had Australian children! There was a local commitment to supporting these women and children (I wondered whether Brenda Webb was a serviceman’s child!). Marjorie T died in 2009, aged in her 90s.
This is the kind response I’ve got from the Boroondara Library Officer.
https://imgur.com/a/hyB6vBQ
I’ve requested the digital copies of the 1938 docs on PROV but I suspect it’s only possible to view them in the reading rooms at PROV.
If any of you are interested, here are the links.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/VPRS382/records
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/VA585/record_series
PS: I’ve told them that the CM team was on the trail of Dorothy, so the ‘fantastic research’ bit refers to all commenters’ contributions.
Regarding Rose Gwendoline Dorothy Robertson, born 1920 at Carlton to Mary Muldoon and Charles Robertson (Vic BDM 10331/1920).
There’s one marriage record on Vic BDM that says Dorothy Rosa Gwenda Elizabeth Robertson married Keith Lewis Clarke in 1950 (Vic BDM 8044/1950).
Keith Lewis Clarke was born around 1926 at Nugent, Tasmania, and died in 1990 at the age of 64 (place not disclosed). His wife is listed as Dorothy Robertson, and parents Alice (no maiden name) and William Ernest Clarke (Vic BDM 17301/1990).
Dorothy Rosa Clarke died on 16 Feb 2009.
CLARKE, Dorothy
Publication: Herald Sun
Date Listed: 16/2/2009
CLARKE. – The Funeral Service for Mrs Dorothy Rosa Clarke will be held in the Crick Chapel, Fawkner Memorial Park Cemetery, on WEDNESDAY (Feb. 18) commencing at 1 p.m. to be followed by burial within the Cemetery grounds.
Keith Lewis Clarke was sentenced in Dec 1947 for stealing a radio from a parked car outside a Numurkah cafe in Nov 1947, so I suppose we can rule this Dorothy out.
I’m sure Jo would have ruled her out easily based on her being born at Carlton. I’ve noticed that many children born there had been registered without a father’s name. Tough life!
Shepparton Advertiser (Vic. : 1887 – 1953)
Fri 12 Dec 1947
Page 1
Stole Radio From Parked Car
Three young men who stole pro-
perty valued at £108 from a car
parked outside a Numurkah cafe on
the evening of November 13, receiv-
ed suspended sentences at Numurkah
court on Tuesday. Two of them were
also released on bonds after plead
ing guilty to two charges of ille
gally using motor cars.
Kevin Haldane Watkins, 18, of Esk-
dale road, Caulfield, formerly a wait-
er in a Shepparton cafe, and Keith
Lewis Clarke, 21, of Yarrawonga,
pleaded guilty to two counts of il-
legally using cars and to stealing.
Leslie Francis Williams 31, of Wun-
ghnu, pleaded guilty to stealing.
Each accused was sentenced to
three months on the larcency charge,
and was released on a bond of £20
to be of good behaviour for 12
months. On the car charges, Watkins
was sentenced to one month but re
leased on a bond of £2O to be of good
behaviour for three years. Clarke
was released on a bond of £2O to
be of good behaviour for twelve
months.
About half past nine on the night
of November 13, Mr. John Viney,
of Katandra West, left his car in
Melville street, Numurkah for about
half an hour. He returned to it and
drove home where he discovered that
a wireless set, blankets, clothing and
jewellery were missing. He then
rang the police.
After enquiries. Detectives H. N.
Cox and D. Cadby, of Shepparton,
and First Constable Gale, of Numur
kah, recovered the stolen property
hidden in various places. The wire
less set was hidden in a woodheap at
the Water Commission yard; ruby,
diamond and pearl rings were found
in the pocket of the accused Clarke;
and a watch and case were found in
the toe of a boot under Clarke’s bed.
Blankets, which were moved there by
one of the accused when he heard
the police were enquiring, were found
in a hut not occupied by any of the
accused.
Mr. G. S. Catlow was on the bench
and First Constable Gale, of Nu
murkah, prosecuted.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/173900201?searchTerm=%22keith%20lewis%20clarke%22#
@ Jo,
Our comments were posted almost simultaneously.
Thank you for your kind words, I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for you and everyone else keeping this discussion alive and particularly your amazing knowledge of Melbourne places!
I know you are a very busy mom, wife and PhD, so thank you!
I was looking at the plot of Garthwaite Tagg because of his murder/suicide/chiropody/beauty salon links.
The point being that in 1940 being a chiropodist didn’t pay enough for a man to pay his rent etc. He was pawning his possessions. Though perhaps locals will know he was living beyond his means at his address.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46718682?searchTerm=%22marjorie%22%2C%20%22chiropodist%22
It suggests equally Dorothy couldn’t earn enough as a foot specialist/chiropodist in a beauty salon.
But the pawning of clothes was the bit that made me think of Carl’s suitcase having few possessions. Tagg had 9 pawn tickets. I wondered let’s say Carl had pawned his books. What would be the procedure after he died?
Where did pawn shops offload the items?
The other part about ‘murderer?’ Tagg was he was pretending to be a doctor and that he had studied chiropody in London with a chemist. Was there a link of Dorothy Webb to Ruby Webb performing illegal operations?
Did she choose to lose Baby Lockyer?
@ Pat
Carlton is always trickier! Lots of tough characters in previous times but it’s also adjacent to the University of Melbourne… 😉
I’m very impressed by the City of Boroondara’s response! I can do a PROV visit after 1 March. Poppins is also our PROV super searcher! It feels as though you’ve brought us so close to really verifying this photo, one way or another!
@ Steve – back in 2022 you uncovered a whole swathe of Robertson genealogy & lots about Idlewylde, the Gilpin Mansion. I’m sure it was more fun than slandering Slanders!
@ all – I had a quick look at Enid Mary Wall’s NAA file (Dorothy’s Murphy Street housemate). It’s very thin on information. She relocated from Kingaroy in Queensland (from where she was recruited) to South Yarra & was an accomplished stenographer and clerk. She served with the Women’s Auxiliary Airforce. @ David Morgan- I don’t think she worked in recruitment – I think the references are to her own recruitment. My hunch is that she was involved in RAAF signals intelligence work at Kellow House (now the Royce Hotel), a few doors down from the Webb’s Bromby Street apartment.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C292138
@Pat, good on ya …… hey, I can go to Prov and check out those books, no worries. Will put in a request now and then I’ll be able to view them within five days from then …. exciting, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Re Peter McDonald Robertson, I can see his name in the 1940 Sands and McDougall listing as being in Maryborough then.
Great job with naming in the photos …. not nitpicking, but I’m not convinced that girl’s Shirley Avenell yet, could be the girl on the far right, need a better photo. And the little one in the front left looks a lot like that great pic of Myrtle O’Brien, mother of Edna …. good grief, I’ve been looking into all of their lives and getting fascinated with ’em …. Edna’s dad died in 1930, mother ended up living at 42 Church Street Middle Brighton, Teddy went off to Tongala to work for the Slades to be a motor mechanic and served in the RAAF …. ah …….
https://midlandexpress.com.au/latest-news/2022/05/26/kyneton-resident-honoured-for-service-during-wwii/
https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/tony-wright-column-the-modest-spy-and-monterey-australias-bletchley-park-20170706-gx5mxu.html
Women working for the WAAF and WRAN in South Yarra during WWII. The first mentions Kellow House, on the corner of Bromby Street & St Kilda Road.
@ Pat,
Thanks for your reply. Am afraid I’ve had no luck searching the way you described. Have tried multiple times with and without quotes, with and without spaces between words, etc. Because posters’ names here aren’t live links and posts aren’t titled or grouped into separate threads and placed in folders, I’ve found that searching for older posts is next to impossible.
————————————————————
@ Nick Pelling,
If you’re reading this, I wish you would consider migrating this site to one such as Proboards offers. They’re free, have automatic moderation, allow posters to title their own posts and start new threads, permit live posting, and are organized using folders that contain separate threads. Posts can be easily moved or deleted at any time by the person to whom the site was registered. Searching is a breeze because posters’ names are live links; by simply clicking on a poster’s name, one can see all their posts at once. Sites are safe and secure, and make researching, posting, and searching there a delight. Without the kinds of organization and search tools that a site like Proboards offers, much of the research that’s been posted on this site will remain difficult, if not nearly impossible to access, for many. What a shame when one considers all the hard work that’s gone into making this site what it is!
https://www.proboards.com/
Example of a proboards site:
https://earonsgsk.proboards.com/
——————————————————
@ Jo,
So glad you’ve weighed in on the history of Fawkner Park Tennis Centre! I tried emailing them to inquire how long they’ve been open after being unable to find that info online, but they never replied. The sale of the tennis racket from Bromby St. was much on my mind when I posted. One poster awhile back seemed to think it was meant for grass courts. This strengthened my thought that D and EM might have met while playing tennis. I now wonder, however, in light of David Morgan’s find of Enid Mary’s war records, if EM and D had time to become friendly before D left the flat in mid-Sept. of ’46. It looks like EM wasn’t released from military service until August of ’46. Perhaps they had time to get acquainted, but I’m somewhat dubious now.
The Campbells that appeared in the “Table Talk” article I posted about may be a stretch as well. I haven’t researched them but assumed they might have been living in or around Camberwell rather than Elsternwick or Brighton. Perhaps they were related to the Campbells D was staying w/, tho’ not sure.
Fascinating reading about the ballroom at the tennis centre! It reminded me of an article I came across about “The Dug Out Club” on Swanston St. in the Capitol House. It opened in May of ’42 and offered dancing to servicemen, as well as chiropody. I wondered if D could have gone to work there after marrying C. The time period suggests she might have. (I also wondered if she could have been bringing home male guests she met there and entertaining them in the flat, causing problems in the marriage, but pure speculation on my part.) Can’t seem to find the link to the club’s history I swore I grabbed, and am relying instead on a few quick notes I wrote.
So Helmut Newton is the Bromby St Viennese connection you alluded to. I remembered from long ago the posts written on that topic. Looks like David Morgan’s research has paid off yet again! Would have enjoyed reading up on Newton again, but wasn’t able to find the posts you so kindly linked to, unfortunately. Many thanks, however, for the many links you so thoughtfully included!
Your knowledge of the history of South Yarra helps make this site so much more worthwhile. Didn’t know you have a PhD. Very impressive! Is your specialty history, by any chance? Your knowledge of life in South Yarra and Victoria at that time has added so much color to the tale of C and D and makes their lives there much easier to imagine!
I’ve placed orders at my local library for some of the books you’ve mentioned. Can’t wait to get started on them! I envy you your conversations w/ Marjorie Tipping. Apologies to all you Aussies for the burdens we damn yanks placed on you, your society, and the children that resulted from their naughty, wayward behavior. You make me want to learn more about Brenda Webb. Think I must have missed those posts!
Thanks much for all the great history and education. So very glad you’re posting here!
—————————————
@ Pat,
Great comprehensive response from Boroondara Library! I love it when they care enough to go the extra mile and get the info we’re seeking.
Good thinking contacting PROV, too!
Superb work all around, and fabulously smart telling them we’re all hot on the trail of Dorothy!
Mrs FO Hall’s daughter [luckily not F. All] Patricia Doreen Hall married John Squire. It has been said that Patricia is Dorothy’s cousin and Dorothy stayed with her mother.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268787718?searchTerm=%22F.O.%20Hall%22
Then Mrs C Moebus the other cousin?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196527004?searchTerm=%22F.O.%20Hall%22%2C%20mildura
This link provides Hall, Robertson and Moebus. All are/to become related?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265999078?searchTerm=%22moebus%22%2C%20robertson
It would be interesting to use DNAPAINTER (WATO) with both Carl and Dorothy if there are some known DNA results for family members in the tree.
https://dnapainter.com/blog/what-are-the-odds-v3-sneak-peak/
Perhaps both Dorothy and Carl have some illegitimacy in their lineage.
@Sanders, I’m going to take the bait, so ……… what’s it all about re: “Saint Michaels Grammar School Saint Kilda, and by extension to a certain Dorothy Robertson who was recorded as being a primary grade student there in the twenties at least”? – where’d ya get that from? It is interesting, h’mm, since Dorothy has some missing education months before enrolment at Brunswick South West School. I’m sure you are thrilled to hear this.
Poppins: It’s there on trove @ Dorothy Robertson St. Michaels etc., the date being 15th Dec. 1925 from memory. I posted same detail here way back but no one was looking (see for yourself). As for the two family addresses, one near the school pre war and t’other on site post war, you’ll find all correct as stated, and no not baited, it ain’t my bag. Just thrilled to pieces I be but need to know more on Doff, like her nephews and nieces. Anything to get off this deep fake Somerton Man cycle.
….18th December ’25 … The Age.
@Jo
I (or strictly speaking my alter-ego Lord CoB) also did a lot of research on the Robertson clan which I posted on this thread between Nov 26 and Nov 28 2023, which left Sanders so gobsmacked he could only cry out in awe and envy “Mamoth [sic] research effort Bob [!] and in essence hard to find much to disagree with.” As part of this effort I “managed to wangle from Derek that Doff died in Sydney circa. nineties ” as the old duffer put it.
However this sort of research takes up a lot of time, and a) I have better things to do and b) frankly I don’t find the current search for Doff’s school history engrossing enough to spend the hours of digging that would be necessary to do it justice. I sincerely wish good luck to those who have dedicated themselves to this task and unlike Mr S I don’t go on other sites to make derogatory remarks about contributors here such as his moan today on Tbt: “…the CM/FB crowd these days [are] now fully absorbed with their manic facination [sic] for Doff’s doings from cradle to grave” which he characterises as a “calculated diversionary ploy that prevailss [sic] over all else…”
When Mr S refers to me as a sexual deviant because I made a couple of comments on the Jim Beaumont thread I take this as a declaration of war! One example of his inability to have even a tangential relationship with reality is the petty “Jo Blow” argument which I have refrained from commenting on until now.
“Jo Blow” made a brief comment on January 23, 2024 at 4:30 am. After being accused of being “Jo Blow” Sanders replied: “Check the time. Be assured it be a bit late in the evening for me.” Hang on. 4.30 am GMT would be 11.30 am in Ho Chi Minh City! So now Mr S is telling us that 11.30 am is the evening! He is obviously the culprit, but too frit to own up.
All this would merely be LMAO material except that he then accused me (GB based) of being “Jo Blow”. I can assure you and everyone else that I don’t stay up until half four in the morning posting inane comments on this site under numerous pseudonyms like JS does.
On 28 Jan AT remarked “I can only assume, then, that “Jo Blow” was Curio/Mitch.” That day Mr S said “I can well imagine Jo Blow being a closet misogynist themselves…The someone almost certainly working class English [I wish!]…That OK with you Steve H of GB!”
The icing on the cake was his further comment that day (and bearing in mind that I had never engaged in the “Jo Blow” debate): ” By taking aim on Derrek [sic] Abbott’s proposer Mitch Whalmi @Curio @ Jo Blow? so as to point the finger of blame away from Steve H…Bob, @ Jo Blow way to go” which I presume relates to his previous comment “..you be showing your true colours in a way that only a nut like Trump could compete with…” Not only can’t he distinguish between myself and AT as Curio’s accuser, but he also implicates me of being “Rusty Bertha” and (endlessly) “Robert Nowak” which mantle (as Bob), as you know, I took on for a while just for shits and giggles.
Of course I know that every other commenter here knows precisely what Mr Sanders is – a fake, a liar, a fantasist, a troll, a defamer, a bigot, a dirty old man and a gutter snake. My tongue is ever firmly in my cheek when I type my “sledging” comments here. I don’t and can’t take prats like that seriously, and to answer your point it is LOADS of fun winding the poor feeble minded drongo up. In fact I’m just off to Jim Beaumont to do just that!
I do regret that there seem to now be two separate camps here, one the “female” team and one the “male” team”. Maybe that’s a temporary thing as I don’t think us blokes are so interested in Dorothy’s school/debutante days, never having been schoolgirls or debutantes ourselves. But comments slagging off male commenters en masse don’t take us forward and in a world where gender is increasingly being deconstructed they are a little bit reactionary. I suppose I am counted as one of the contributors here with a “big ego” but that goes with the territory of identifying oneself as a bloke (in a woman it would be seen as strength, independence of mind, plain speaking etc etc).
Roy Moebus (Dorothy’s ?great uncle by marriage?) seems to have been an inventor.
NAA lists him inventing tanks, bombs and landing craft. But not the mathematical infinity strip..possibly a distant German relative. Whether any of his inventions were ever built – who knows..
In 1953 he wanted a quote on a house in Springvale from an electrician to wire his home. If only Carl was around.
When Dorothy’s uncle by marriage Cecil Moebus was a POW his wife seems to have been playing croquet in Essendon. It suggests Dorothy’s aunt was aspirational marrying into a middle-class Mildura family. Her aunt seems to have more in common with Dorothy than her mother.
Just another total waste of time and breath Bob, albeit our time and your breath, wasted since the day you were welped you son of a gun…..I do tend to agree to a point on there being at least two separate camps but in fairness to both and unlike you, I don’t distinguish between gendre perse. In essence on one hand there’s Carl the staid hard working family man of admirable ‘Sentimental Bloke’ qualities; As opposed to his sensual and flighty young wife Dofg who has long since tired of the tedium of her man’s inattention and be anxious to see what the other side has to offer. There was of course a third camp, now long since abandoned and betrayed by those who have since aligned to the more potentially rewarding camp Dorothy.
@Pat I went to Prov today and looked at those whopping big books …. alas, there was nothing there about debutantes at all. They were just letters about contracts, dog registration, fences, footpaths, overhanging trees, job applications to council …. I looked at all the names on the letters but didn’t see any from the debutantes photo – there was just one letter from a Mr S.M. Lord of 119 Yarrbat Ave, Balwyn – maybe related to Norma Lord.
I did see a letter to John Comber Robertson giving him the right to shoot the hawks. They don’t have any other mayoral letters at Prov Vic for 1938, they had a look for me. Ah well.
https://imgur.com/0FfDoaJ
https://imgur.com/p2S653n
@Sanders, thanks for that …. h’mm, got no idea who that little Dorothy poppet is, and they seem to vanish after 1925 – it is interesting ….. will keep looking at stuff to solve this St Michael’s mystery. If they stayed in St Kilda they’d probably do their deb at the Caulfield or Prahran Town Hall.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155665546?searchTerm=dorothy%20robertson
When Ruby Webb was 3 her mother sent a telegram to Joseph Gavey, her dad, to say Ruby was dead. When he arrived at the house he saw Ruby in the window. They had a bitter trivial court battle a real love/hate thing going on. The court dismissed the case.
At the divorce case in 1914 Annie Gavey took a gun to court and shot at Joseph in the corridor. Joespeh got his divorce and she was arrested. In October she was acquitted of attempted murder. The claim was the gun went off accidentally.
He got the divorce because ‘she’ was having an affair with James Cherry.
But the story was far more complicated:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119784718?searchTerm=%22james%20cherry%22
It is likely Ruby was part of a continuous violent and troubled lifestyle involving crime. It is amazing that Roy Webb chose to marry into such a violent and known criminal family. It would be like joining the mafia.
While Roy was joining the Melbourne Mafia you have to wonder why Carl was such a goodie twoshoes in the 1930s but then suddenly he’s the violent angry man in the 1940s.
@ Poppins,
Regarding Shirley Avenell, I still think she’s the far left back row girl, based on her younger looks, square chin, and straight eyebrows, but maybe you’re right, because her boyfriend at the time, Paul Edward Peterson, is standing closer to your candidate, second far right in the photo.
His wedding photo with Marie Agnes Doyle is on Ancestry.
https://imgur.com/a/SQCox2t
In the Gavey divorce case some articles say 3 children. Those that say 2 have one child a few years older. But John Ivor was 1905 and Ruby Stella 1906. Who was the 3rd older child?
@ Poppins,
Oh well, we can but try, thanks a lot for your effort!
Sydney Martin Lord of 119 Yarrbat Avenue, Balwyn, was born at Collingwood in 1894 to Emily Williams and Richard Lord, married Gerte Mela Stella Skinner in 1925, and died at Camberwell, 1975. He had four brothers and one sister. No idea if they are related to Norma May!
We need photos of Jean Estelle (Smart) Batten and Eileen Helen (Maguire) O’Dea. No luck so far, but I’m waiting for a reply on Findagrave. Fingers crossed.
Poppins: thanks for your curt reply. I’ve shown earlier that the J C Robertsons were in residence (E. Thomas House.) at St. Michaels in the pre war years and in the locality afterwards for many years, suggests ongoing connections. it might be reasonable to assume, would it not? that their daughters attended at some point, all things being equal.
It looks as tho’ Enid Mary Wall was living at 16 Park St., S. Yarra, by at least May 8, 1946, making her Aug. ’46 demob date less relevant. This means she could have met D while playing tennis at the Fawkner Park Tennis Centre after all!
Full page found by David Morgan w/ date at top:
https://imgur.com/a/1NlRBO8
All 25 pages of her war record, also found by David Morgan:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4943035
If Dorothy was a registered Pharmacist etc, wouldn’t they have any information on her de-registration/death etc? Just an idea.
Clive: only qualified, registered and/or certified pharmacist/chiropodist/podiatrist
I can recall being mentioned on CM be a Dorothy Dixon from the seventies that you supplied us with. Good idea sure and perhaps the team will get to work on it.
A few fake chiropodists seem to claim training in London. The daughter of the trained chiropodist in Glenelg claimed she was trained in London. You would expect to see adverts they were responding to but perhaps they were buying the Times. When at university I could search the Times so perhaps another student can search for chiropody training adverts in the Times archive.
I might be posting this twice as my laptop crashed..
But I noticed a few fake chiropodists claimed training in London and even the daughter of a trained chiropodist. Perhaps there was training advertised in London.
If a student in the group can access the Times archive…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155665546?searchTerm=Dorothy%20Robertson
Here is Johnno‘s 1925 Dorothy Robertson at St Michael‘s, being awarded a junior divinity certificate. Is it our Dorothy? She would be five years old and still living at Cundare…
@ Poppins – great find at the PROV!! Although the letter we were hoping for wasn’t there, this puts JCR firmly within view of the Camberwell Town Hall within the right time period. I can imagine that working at the posh Gilpin estate would certainly put one in the mindset for debutante balls!
I’m wondering if the debutantes’ photograph was one that may have been taken with copies sold to the girls and their families. There may still be more copies around in Melbourne. Perhaps with names. Poppins & Pat would you be up for some local media interest aimed at reaching out to families of the girls you’ve managed to identify? I imagine there will be some media attention around the SA announcement on the DNA. It could be the time to go for it!
@ Clive – I searched through a number of historic Pharmacist registers some time ago, there was no sign of Dorothy! Was she inflating her credentials?
The grave of Enid Mary Campbell, née Wall – Dorothy’s 1949 housemate, names a daughter, Marlene. She may still be around…
@ AT – I can ask the bloke who currently runs the Fawkner Park tennis courts if he knows of any historic records. I can’t see anything on the Victorian State Library catalogue. The Royal South Yarra Tennis Club is an entirely separate entity- quite a posh club…
@ Steve – is this reminding you of Diane Arbus’ 1966 photo of Brenda Duff Frazier, New York’s 1938 Debutante of the Year?
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/306278
@ Nick – I think that the deb photo with Pat’s names & accompanying photos is very worthy of it’s own post!
@ AT – I thought Enid Mary Wall’s WWII service file was very enigmatic! It’s difficult to discern what she actually did. She was an experienced clerk and stenographer & was obviously bright as she’d won a convent school scholarship in Queensland. She was transferred from rural Queensland to Melbourne as her file begins at Sandgate near Brisbane but is signed off at Ransford, the Personnel Department, which operated out of the Melbourne Cricket Ground. She also received a living away allowance. My bet is that she worked at Kellow House on the corner of Bromby Street & St Kilda Roads doing RAAF radio & clerical work, this was a few doors down from Doff and Charlie’s apartment.
I wonder whether Dorothy went to live at Park Street when she left Bromby Street?
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/11C52A37-F29A-11E9-AE98-39A7C770C94E?check_logged_in=1
1979 grant of probate for Enid Mary Campbell of St Kilda, stenographer.
What are the chances:
– Modern Aussie Gaveys – selling solar panels
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/mackay/sunshine-coast-solar-provider-has-fine-reduced-on-appeal/news-story/238783a96558212157bd7aa8f2adae12
A Gavey on Jersey installing solar.
https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/classifieds/public-notices/planning-application-p20210249/
To be honest the Gaveys in the Channel Islands seem to control everything.
@Poppins @ Jo @ Pat @ Steve H… “There was a junior girl Dorothy Robertson enrolled at Saint Michaels C of E Girls Grammar School St. Kilda circa. 1925; so some chance there if not Brunswick and F. Hall at Mildura which was never a goer for mine. 32 Charnwood Road [sic] Street St. Kilda was yet another address given by JCR sometime after his SS farm at Beeac had failed. At that time he was possibly using the alternate name John Coomber (see NAA sans Comber) Robertson”
So there you have it verbatum from the stallion’s misogynistic mouth and the date of the post be Nov. 25 2023….so not so well spotted me lovelies, or maybe not what y’all wanted to deal with, Brunswick being all the rage..?
Note: Am gonna drop the “@“ before a poster’s name for the time being. Can’t see the point of it, as links here aren’t live.
———————
John S.,
Thanks loads for the HMSO definition! I’ve been wondering about that for ages. How is a file that’s labelled that way different from other PROV files, do you think?
Re: “Stationary” vs. “stationery.” Couldn’t agree more! Not unlike the way one candidate for US president referred to gov’t bureaucrats as “potted plants.” Thanks for the chuckle, (tho’ I know I’m not supposed to thank you!).
———————
Jo,
I agree it’s tough sledding going thru Enid Mary’s RAAF file. Am wondering if she was stationed in Queensland for much of the war and not S. Yarra until after war’s end. The way she’s dressed in her war file photo makes me think she may have been working outdoors, perhaps recruiting in Queensland after all, or perhaps on an airfield there or in S. Yarra.
https://imgur.com/a/q990E07
The article below is difficult to wade thru as well, but mentions airfields in both southern Queensland and Melbourne. Perhaps Enid was engaged in bureaucratic and/or outdoor duties at one or the other?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Area_Command_(RAAF)
Enid Mary didn’t marry Alex Campbell until 1950. Am wondering if their marriage could have prompted D’s move to Bute. Am guessing Enid and Alex may have needed the extra room in the house after they were married. Enid and Alex remained in the house in Elsternwick until Alex’s death in ’68. Both Enid and Alex were clerks. Alex remained one until his death. Alex appeared to have been the 3rd of 3 children. The family may have migrated to Australia from Scotland when Alex was 5 yrs. old. Alex may also have been in the navy and registered for duty in Melbourne. Was hoping to get more clues about how Enid and Alex could have met and what their connection to D could have been, outside of possibly meeting on the tennis courts. Maybe they’re in here somewhere:
https://imgur.com/a/02sBQui
The Dug-Out, which opened in May 1942, on Swanston St. It offered chiropody, among other things:
https://citycollection.melbourne.vic.gov.au/the-dug-out-allied-services-club/#
https://australianfoodtimeline.com.au/the-dug-out-club-1942/
(Scroll down to see “chiropody” reference.)
Poppins: there be no clearcut evidence of a Dorothy Jean Robertson ever having attended St. Michael’s Grammar nor for that matter Sth. Brunswick Tech?. This being due to that infernal missing middle name. However Cundare be different in that you found a record of registration with full name to comply with Vic. Dep. Ed. Regs., and dated 3/2/20 along with her Aunt Maude Burnett’s address plus JCR’s details. What we don’t have is confirmation that Dorothy actually started the new school year there or for how long. I see now how you hit on your disclosure, that it just post dated mine re Saint Mick’s and note that had it have been picked up by punters (fat chance), it may have put a dampener on your well deserved Eureka moment. NB: I would have done the same mate!
While looking for the Robertsons’ neighbours at Winmalee Road, Balwyn, I came acrross the name of Denis S. Lake, who was the Secretary of the Hawthorn Branch of the Amalgamated Engineering Union at some point in the 40s and maybe the 50s.
On Sands & McDougall:
His address in 1940 was 3 Albert Street, Surrey Hills.
In 1944-45 Mrs. J. M. Lowchoy is listed at 86 Winmalee Road.
In 1950 Denis S. Lake is listed at 86 Winmalee Road.
I was wondering if Carl could had been a member of this Union?
There is a considerable amount of archives at https://www.atua.org.au/biogs/ALE0047b.htm but before I start looking I thought I’d ask if there’s a remote chance of finding any useful information.
Jo,
Sorry, I started posting before I’d finished reading what you’d written. It looks as tho’ you feel E was transferred to S. Yarra for clerical duties. That seems like a good possibility. Perhaps this occurred just after the war ended when the RAAF was being reorganized, or maybe before. Unfortunately, we don’t have a date in her war file. Either way, we know she had relocated to S. Yarra by April ’46 and had enough time to become acquainted w/ D, either due to proximity between Kellow House and the flat, or possibly by having met on the tram or the tennis courts. Your thought that she could have gone to live w/ E on Park St. is an intriguing one. It would certainly explain the gap in time between leaving the flat and going to live w/ the Campbells.
Re D’s possible hyping of pharmacist qualifications:
I’ve noticed several Trove ads for products that were sold in pharmacies and chemist shops in the early ‘40s that appear to have been unregulated. Some of those products look like nothing more than snake oil. One ad even invites customers to call for free advice on which products to take for what ailments. This suggests to me that perhaps the pharmaceutical profession itself was unregulated. It might not have been until the late ‘40s or so that the laws were changed requiring more scrupulous adherence to industry protocols. If this is true, then perhaps D was able to sell or dispense those remedies without having attained the qualifications that became necessary later. Maybe that subsequent change in Victorian law is part of what prompted D’s move to Bute.
https://imgur.com/a/Bx5MVwV
I also wonder if D could have been practicing as a pharmacist at a botanical pharmacy or an alternative medicine shop like the one down the road from 274 Domain. If so, I doubt she would have needed strict qualifications to do so.
https://www.botanicalpharmacy.com.au/
One last possibility that crossed my mind is that D could have undergone the kind of training described in the clipping I posted earlier, but was never actually employed in the profession.
Pat: No Carl Webb at the ATUA archive, but there is a Helen Robertson!
@Jo, good idea, some media attention, hey, like that great link you put up about the Tweed Regional Ambulance mystery solved by a member of the public …. Boroondara local paper maybe? I wouldn’t be good with media attention and I couldn’t even get that other newspaper or school to respond to me, so ……..
@Sanders, I hereby declare and aver, thus to wit and make it so, that the Dorothy Robertson winning the prize at St Michael’s is not the said Dorothy Jean Robertson in question …. those kids are too darn old in that little Junior bunch, born in 1913, three of ’em at least. Too old to be the Dorothy in the debutante pic too which I was wondering about. I declare the St Michael’s case closed.
Poppins: I had the same feeling initially but unlike you I wasn’t able to trap check her class mates, all being girls from memory. Case closed on the 1925 trove score but, not necessarily on St. Mick’s perse, there’s still a five year hiatus to fill for her start at Sth West Brunswick right and dad seems to have liked the neighborhood.
Clive: she’ll do mate, we’re running short of Dorothy Jeans at CM. As for Carl Webb the ATUA (Samoan for God) never heard of him, leastwise not around Somerton and certainly not lately. Have you tried E. C. Johnson of Payneham, could be him.
@ Clive,
Thanks, much appreciated!
While Dorothy remains elusive EM Wall seems to have two identities (at least). A Mrs EM Wall who writes to newspapers and the young-un Miss EM Wall who is the horse and pekingese loving stenographer/typist/clerk/recruiter and supposedly mother of Marlene. Though finding Marlene Campbell after 1950? is difficult.
https://imgur.com/oZdYH6J
If Carl loved the GGs then Enid was his ideal partner. He should have taken his chances with Enid to 1948.
@ David
That’s not Enid’s daughter Marlene as there is a husband listed in another notice – for a Glen Eira residents association. I thought there might be a full name detailed in Enid’s PROV probate document, link posted earlier (it will need to wait for another day unless Poppins is on the trail!).
There are lots of online references to Enid Campbell – of Monash University, where she was a well known feminist legal scholar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enid_Campbell b. 1932
So not Enid the stenographer with the enigmatic WWII service file!
David Morgan: seems I missed the boat with Enid (not Edith) but all wanted to say is that Alex was a Presbyterian Freemason and she a Papist if that changes your course of further riveting investigation. As an aside she doesn’t look like a tennis player, or a dog lover, though it would not surprise if she had been a horse person.
Jo: NAA RAAF records P16 confirm that Enid Wall was posted from 3RC Sandgate (Brisbane) to RAAF HQ Melb. on 6/9/44; then on 30/5/46 to 1PD (Ransford) for pre-discharge processing and subsequent discharged on 8/5/46. Couldn’t have made it any more clear Dear.
https://imgur.com/a/5GboTVo
@ AT – here are some photos of the entrance to the Dug Out Club taken today on my ride home – no chiropodists, but you might get a Starbucks coffee on the way in! It now houses a discount women’s clothes store. The Capitol Theatre upstairs is magnificent!
Enid’s pre discharge date should’ve been 30 April ’46 not May. My bad sorry.
Thanks Sanders!
@ AT – some good pictures of the Capitol Theatre here, in Gallery:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Capitol,_Melbourne
Searching for Sturt street (I believe the Campbells started there) I came across
Factory Standards and Design Branch Architectural Design Section – Buesst and Bills Bros Pty Ltd 131 Sturt Street South Melbourne – this seems to have been a wartime activity with Buesst.
and:
Sturt Street, South Melbourne – construction of AASC [Australian Army Service Corps] depot [includes drawings]
and
Post Master General’s Department – Philips Electrical Industries Pty Ltd, Special Experimental Section, Sturt Street South Melbourne
and
Military Board Agendum – Sub-lease of premises at 162 to 164 Sturt Street South Melbourne for temporary Central Ordnance Depot from 14th August 1939
A lot of war-time activity in Sturt Street.
Domain road
Department of Army simplex morse facility from 225 Domain Road, South Yarra to Bonegilla Camp
Lease of “Airlie”, 200 Domain Road, South Yarra by Royal Navy
Teleprinter line – 260 Domain Road – Netherlands Radio Station at Craigieburn for Netherlands Forces Intelligence Service [9 pp]
Carl could have had services exemption as a bakery manager
https://imgur.com/a/cQPfEv2
@JS,
Koo Choo
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169563186?searchTerm=%22e.m.%20wall%22%2C%20%22koo%20choo%22
Silver Mist and Koo Choo
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/273382417?searchTerm=%22wall%22%2C%20%22koo%20choo%22
Though it could be a different E.M. Wall. Though it does say “Miss”.
silver mist
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74424845?searchTerm=%22silver%20mist%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95091681?searchTerm=%22silver%20mist%22
For someone keen on having unique dogs and names recycling the name silver mist seems curious.
David Morgan: Thought we’d found Marlene Campbell, lived in Park Lane and all but, wrong part of the state and a tad too old. Nothing lost nothing gained what?
David Morgan: Thought we’d found Marlene Campbell, lived in Park Lane and all but, wrong part of the state and a tad too old. Nothing lost nothing gained what?
Jo,
Wow, didn’t know Melbourne had such a magnificent historic theatre or that it was housed in the same building as the Dug-Out. Thank God the powers-that-be decided to save it from demolition! Love the “entrance lobby” in the article you posted. What a contrast your pics of the modern portions of the building create with the Art Deco details of the theatre itself!
I wonder if D could have met Enid and/or Alex C while doing chiropody there, and if the 3 of them could have gone dining, dancing, and movie-viewing at the “picture palace” upstairs the night D was out w/ “friends” in Mar. of ’46. I also wonder if E and A could have met one another while at the Dug-Out when A was on leave from the navy.
Thanks so much for snapping and posting your great pics, and for the fascinating article that went w/ them. It seems you have yet another architectural gem in your midst!
Jo, Pat, Poppins,
Could births listed fatherless at the Carlton Post Office be from the Berry Street Babys Home?
There’s a Jean Robertson cremated at Woronora Memorial Park, date of death 16/11/2000, date of interment 21/11/2000. Plot: Henry Lawson Gardens – General, GENERAL BUSHROCK 6 GARDEN C, Position 0012.
Were cremations cheaper than burials (or the only option for people without a private plot) in the late 90s – early 2000?
@ Alan H,
I have no idea, but it sounds interesting. Do you think there could be archives from this home? I still would like to find Alice’s birth record (1896, Fitzroy, according to John Comber).
Ah ha, we can absolve John Comber Robertson of all wrongdoing re the John C Robertson who was thrown in the clink in 1924 ….. it was another bloke, found it in the Police Gazette:
“Robertson, John C; tried at Melbourne P.S., 21st April, 1922, posting obscene print; 2 months; Scotland, barman, 1895, 6 ft. 2 in., fresh complexion, black hair grey eyes.”
https://imgur.com/a/qOCaNwq
@Alan H, I had a look on Trove and saw one birth registered at the Carlton Post Office …. h’mm, will have a look into it, don’t know much about Berry Street, etc
Trove are currently digitising The Sun from 1922 to early ’50’s, another Victorian newspaper, might find some new info there …. some links are already there but not fully accessible though.
Poppins: you gotta be joking mate. You been vacating in Goonoo Goonoo or something. I was on the case and wrote it up til I was nearly white in the face; Even Steve H (oror) got the message about JCR the jock porno poster..eventually.
@Poppins,
I can see the truth in the gazette on JCR but like JS I find it hard to equate with the plot. I guess he could have got someone to serve 2 months for him – wife with kid etc. NAA shows him as 5 9 12.2 in weight. Very similar to me now at 65 losing weight with cancer. I would have expected him to be much bigger as a road construction worker. Perhaps 12 st was big in 1943. My own grandfather was a featherweight boxer and coal miner and so he was tough and tiny around that time near 9 st.
Didn’t the newspaper articles mention a military career for the pornster?
@Sanders, yes, tis true indeed you and Steve said it wasn’t him, all well and good, but there was no supporting evidence … now we have it, isn’t it wonderful.
Forgiveness for typo of 24 instead of 22 …. pushed wrong buttons again, it happens.
Poppins: Managed to find your Trove follow up to David Morgan’s lead on the dirty postcard case with the other John C. Robertson’s prison sentence, but blessed if I can find the thread detailing the final outcome using Nick’s search method. Looks like you’ve got me there and jolly good show too!
Poppins: some strange doings in Trove clips of late including expletives in old news translations. As for your additional gazette info. eg. the perp being 6′ 2″ with black hair, and my follow up re appraisal of Scots born John Crawford Robertson from Brisbane plus other JCR and JR WW1 inlistees, he be the only one who comes even close in phys. Hardly likely that the agrieved party would get her boarder’s pre war history wrong, likewise the plea for clemency based on poor jock’s war neurosis.
@Poppin,
My other interest was the mysterious death of the child/children of the landlady. That was a bit suspicious – more beach deaths.
@DavidMorgan, the boys who met their unfortunate end at the beach were John Coomber Robertson’s nephews. I think they must have got dragged out by a rip, just a very unfortunate accident. You know, maybe Dorothy was holidaying there at the time with her parents, highly possible, for the summer holidays 1933 down at Queenscliff. John Robertson made a statement. You can read the full inquest here:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/CF4B28BA-F1B3-11E9-AE98-030D064C6856?image=1
@Sanders, h’mm, it’s probably John Crawford Robertson, only an inch out and they both had grey eyes … you don’t hear much about people having grey eyes, so …. just the locations don’t add up, brown/black difference, but it’s probably him. Yes, I too have seen some “what in the world” translations in Trove … ya gotta become a Trovette so ya can jump in and fix ’em – some are mildly amusing I must say.
If Dorothy didn’t lie in her divorce affidavit, or if this wasn’t a typo, she was a Pharmacist and Chiropodist PRIOR to the marriage on 4 Oct 1941.
If she started her Pharmacy course in early 1936 after leaving secondary school, she could have been a Pharmacist by 1941 (5-year course), but she would had to wait until 18 July 1941 to be registered, according to this notice.
Gippsland Times (Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Thu 17 Dec 1942
Page 6
PERSONAL
Miss Betty Robinson, daughter of
Mr J. B. Robinson, of Sale and Tra
ralgon, has passed her final examina
tion in pharmacy. Miss Robinson is
under 21 years and will therefore have
to wait two years, before she can be
registered. She is to be congratulated
upon a brilliant course.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63253265?searchTerm=%22pharmacy%22#
Maybe she has decided not to register as she was already engaged to be married?
She could be one of those students mentioned only by number in many newspaper notices that can be found on Trove.
Are there any archives of Melbourne colleges and universities for that year where we could find which students had those numbers?
Ladies,
Could Dorothy have gone back to Brunswick NW as a Teacher (Special) teaching Domestic Arts from her former learnings as per the link?
If you set aside the writings of the Dark Red Somerton Man encyclopaedia for just a second that lists her as a Chemist could she have filled her day still working with an Arts related vocation?
There was a Dorothy W Webb who taught around Yea, Myrtleford and Mount Beauty but was a conventional teacher (and I believe unrelated).
https://onsomertonbeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/teacher_BWick-Red.jpg
Thanks.
p.s. from Melbourne Sat 3rd May 1947
@ Alan H,
Great find!
It certainly fits in with Doff’s affidavit narrative.
She left the flat on 13 September 1946 ‘with only a few shillings to keep me going’, and had to find a job asap.
The ‘Special Transfers’ bit puzzles me though. Transferred from where, if she wasn’t working as a teacher?
This results were advertised in the March Gazette and published on 3 May 1947 in The Age (Melbourne).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206024578?searchTerm=%22dorothy%20webb%22#
And there’s a Dorothy G. Webb being transferred to Balwyn North in the October 1949 Education Gazette, published 2 December in The Argus.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22795669?searchTerm=%22dorothy%20webb%22#
Dorothy said in the affidavit:
‘During the first 18 months of our married life I had almost 12 months in the home (….). I went back to business. (…). I found myself working all hours and caring for a home.’
Does that mean she went back to work around September 1942 (almost 12 months after the wedding on 4 Oct 1941)?
And why did she say ‘During the first 18 months of our married life’, if she went back to business around month 12th?
Does that mean she only worked for 6 months, hence she leaving the flat with only a few shillings to keep her going?
@Pat,
She felt Carl owed her £60 for that period. so if she worked for 6 months she was working for perhaps £10/month. The judge gave her £1 and 10s per week which would be £6/month.
JS,
The following links refer to Jack’s employment as an electrical fitter’s assistant in radio service. The 2nd one below is the letter of recommendation written by Charles Williams, the foreman at AWA. It describes Jack’s technical abilities while working there. All can be found in Jack’s NAA war record.
https://imgur.com/a/HwxtaIM
(Scroll down to highlighted portion at bottom and additional image.)
https://imgur.com/a/BMlmu91
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=5250313
————
My post above refers to Charles Williams, the foreman of AWA. It makes me wonder if Williams couldn’t have been a friend or mentor of C’s, or possibly his former employer. If Jack Keane was working as an electrical fitter’s assistant before becoming a mechanic, could he have been assisting C at AWA? C changed his name at a young age. Could Charles W. have been the inspiration for that change? Williams says in the letter of recommendation he wrote that he’d known Jack since he was a boy. Is this another clue that Williams was a friend or business associate of C’s? Williams’ address on the recommendation letter is also in Footscray, where C grew up.
————
Pat,
I agree that it’s confusing when D talks about the first 18 mos. vs the first 12 of her marriage. Don’t know how to decipher that.
I believe D was working when C “ended the marriage” in Jan. of ’46. She says in her affidavit that he stopped taking her pay after that. This implies she should have had more than “just a few shillings” when she left the flat. Lately I’ve found, after rereading her affidavit, that there are times when I question the truthfulness of some of what she wrote.
@AT… Charles Williams, Jack’s referee vis P. 128 of his NAA RAAF file gave his position with AWA as “Chief Storeman” and not “Chief Foreman” as you would have us believe. Suggest you retract or else place your credibility in some doubt.
….P. 126 not 128 JRK NAA my bad sorry.
Pat:-
The “Special” relates to non-core subjects that a school would have to seek extra funding (for the subjects’ delivery and associated materials and equipment) from the Department of Education once they satisfied the DoE that they had the numbers to justify the expense.
In the 1960’s, the girls could do Home Economics as a non-core choice and the boys could do Woodworking. It required installation of gas and electric stoves and ovens as well as sewing machines, wood lathes, etc, so was particularly expensive to the DoE.
Home Eco would be cookery, dressmaking, budgeting and the like.
The teachers were often not fully teacher accredited and may have been full time or part time.
Religious Instruction was another voluntary subject if the public school so chose.
At that time “Special” didn’t suggest intellectually or physically disadvantaged as it may have later on.
@At … hopefully I’ve found an escape hatch and in so doing unmasked the pair behind your unfortunate Keane deception. Seems that in your self serving efforts to have Jack indentured as uncle Carl Webb’s electrical fitter’s assistant at AWA, you overlooked his airforce inlistment document outlining a rather modest pre war employment history and bare qualifications. I’m assuming that your post source came from detail outlined in the Jack Keane threadline and not the NAA file as I first thought ..No need to name the guilty duo, they’re easy to spot.
I think Lane’s Motors was the go to spot for Jack and Carl and probably Roy pre 1943. The owner died around 1943 so perhaps it was the end of an era for Carl – no Roy, Jack or Mr Lane and no racing roadsters and light car clubs.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206358177?searchTerm=%22lanes%20motors%22%2C%20%22roadster%22
I hadn’t seen this before:
Ice hockey and skating.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28325539?searchTerm=%22lanes%20motors%22%2C%20%22keane%22
@ Alan H,
I was referring to the ‘Transfer’ bit, not the ‘Special’ bit.
I was hoping to find Carl skating/ice hockey. But nothing. I even doubt they had the right Keane. What was his uncle’s name?
Why Doff and Geoff have waited one year after the birth of their (allegedly) stillborn child to get married?
_________________________
@ David Morgan,
What uncle?
I think there’s no doubt that John Russell Keane was the ice hockey lad. He has stated these sports (along with baseball and swimming) in his military records.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=5250313
(last page, 129, in case the link doesn’t go to the specific page).
———————–
Stratfords in NSW.
Dorothy’s cousins, the sons of Alice’s brother Powis Lorraine Stratford and Josephine Harriet (Herriot) Marie Nix:
Arthur Frederick Loraine Stratford
He was born in 19 Apr 1920 at South Yarra.
He lived at 39 Blair Street, Coburg, and was a stores clerk at S.E.C. 238 Flinders Street, Melbourne, when he joined the RAAF on 3 Feb 1941 (Oath of affirmation 27 July 1940), Service Number 401473.
His father is listed as next of kin, as well as his wife Margaret (nee Marden) after their marriage in 1944.
His photos are available on the NAA website.
His had a ‘fresh’ (whatever that means) complexion, brown eyes, and medium hair, height 5’6”.
His (and his father’s) address was “Glen Ivy,” Lockhart, NSW, and then he and his wife moved to 33 Pridham Street, Maribyrnong.
He died on 18 Feb 2004 and she die on 18 April 2018, both at Geelong, leaving a son.
—————————————————
Alfred Thomas Charles Stratford
He was born on 25 Aug 1921 at South Yarra.
He was not allowed to enlist on 15 Aug 1940 because he was in a Reserved Occupation.
He enlisted 28 April 1941, Service Number 40211, as RAAF Leading Aircraftman.
His next of kin was his father, of 39 Blair Street, Moreland, Mr. W. F. Jones (friend), same address, and also his wife Mary (nee Reid, married in 1944), of 42 The Grove, Coburg.
His father’s address is also listed as ‘Box 1, Lockhart, NSW.’
Complexion ‘fair’, eyes ‘blue’, hair ‘dark’, height 5’91/4”.
He was ‘fined £1 for offensive behaviour at Brunswick C.P.S’. around Jan 1941, ‘no record at Police Information Section,’ ‘not associated with communist ideas.’
He was discharged on 6 Dec 1945.
He was appointed as a Telegraph Messenger, 4th Grade, of the Postmaster-General Department of NSW on 18 Feb 1937 (Lockart Post Office).
He got promotions in 1938,1939,1940,1948,1949,1950,1960,1966, and1967.
In 1949:
“Assessor, Grade 2 (£414-£504), Third Division, Assessing Section, Taxation Branch (Income Tax), Melbourne, as Assessor, Grade 3 (£468-£540), Third Division Assessing Section, Taxation Branch (Income Tax), Melbourne.
In 1950 he was promoted to vice, with salary £550 per annum.
He retired (invalidity) as an Assessor Grade 4 of the Australian Taxation Office Victoria on 9 Feb 1978.
He died on 10 May 2007, late of Manly, NSW.
————————-
Clarence Stratford
He was born in 1917 at Prahran, and he also has a birth entry as Clarence Nix (23657/1917), mother Josephine Harriett (Herriot) Marie Nix, father unknown.
I haven’t found anything about him.
___________________
Powis Lorraine was in Belgium when Clarence was born.
He enlisted on 26 Jan 1916, married on 6 June 1916 in Mildura, embarked 3 July 1916 (military record says married ‘no’). Returned to Australia and disembarked at Melbourne 27 July 1919.
Powis had a dark complexion, brown eyes and brown hair.
He requested his payments to be forwarded to Mrs. Emily Nix of Madden Avenue, Mildura (August ?14th, 1916).
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Mon 25 Nov 1918
Page 5
DIVORCE COURT.
FRIDAY, 22nd NOVEMBER.
(Before Mr. Justice Cussen.)
NIX V. NIX.
Emily Nix, 41, Madden-avenue, Mildura, sought
a divorce from Joseph Rudolph Nix, 48, baker,
Church-street, Abbotsford, on the ground of de-
sertion. The parties were married on 5th July,
1899. Respondent began to drink heavily after
marriage, so petioner said, and treated her with
great brutality. He had punched and kicked her
and threatened her life. He left her in 1914, and
had not contributed to her support since then. A
decree nisi, with costs, was granted, petioner to
have the custody of her child.
Emily Nix married Arthur Louis Palmer in 1919 and died in 1925.
The Argus Newspaper Melbourne
Monday 15th June 1925
PALMER.—On the 12th June, at Sydenham, 39
Blair street, Moreland, passed peacefully away,
Emily, beloved wife of Arthur, devoted loved
mother of Eileen, Josie, and Joe; loving sister
of William, Jean, Thomas, Harriet, Arthur;
darling grandma of Freddie, Arthur, and Alfie,
aged 49 years. (Privately interred Burwood
Cemetery, 13th.)
PALMER.—On the 12th June, at Sydenham, 39
Blair street, Moreland, passed peacefully away,
Emily, the beloved wife of Arthur Louis, late of
Mildura and Mitcham. (Privately interred, Bur-
wood Cemetery, 13th.)
At rest.
Joseph Rudolph Aloysius Nix died in 1946 at Royal Park. The list of his wrongdoings is long, before and during his marriage until the divorce.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193404563?searchTerm=%22joseph%20nix%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8422947?searchTerm=%22joseph%20nix%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8566642?searchTerm=%22joseph%20nix%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219778462?searchTerm=%22joseph%20nix%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154255485?searchTerm=%22joseph%20nix%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155236377?searchTerm=%22joseph%20nix%22
Powis Lorraine Stratford died in 1950 in Coburg at the age of 69.
His widow, Josephine Harriet (Herriot) Marie Stratford, married Arthur Jack Burnell in 1954 in Victoria, two years after being the executrix of his former wife’s will (Dot Elaine Victoria Parr), who died on 21 March 1952.
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Wed 30 Jul 1952
Page 9
Advertising
LAW NOTICES
DOT ELAINE VICTORIA BUR-
NELL late of 28 Vincent
Street Coburg Married Woman de-
ceased. After 14 clear days
JOSEPHINE HERRIOT MARIE
STRATFORD of 22 Vincent Street
Coburg Widow the Executrix ap-
pointed by the deceased’s Will
dated 25th February 1952 will
APPLY to the Supreme Court of
Victoria for a Grant of Probate of
the said Will.
DENIS MICHAEL BYRNE.
Solicitor. “Vaughan House,” 108
Queen Street, Melbourne.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244372206?searchTerm=%22Josephine%20herriot%20stratford%22#
Josephine Harriet Marie Burnell died in 1966, mother’s family name at birth Weedon, father Joseph Rudolph Aloysius Nix, place of birth Richmond (instead of Carlton), place of death Coburg, age at death 65.
__________________
Was Dorothy in contact with her cousins of the same age group? Could she have stayed for a while with her cousin Alfred who lived and died in Manly, NSW?
@Pat,
I can only find a 3rd Grade ref to ‘a Keane’ playing baseball in the 1930s. Later 1940s must have been another Keane. No ref to ice hockey. Famous in his own family’s mind perhaps.
But this must be the best lead with Lane’s Motors being an unbeaten baseball team. Webb was singled out as a good Caulfield player.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203104652?searchTerm=%22baseball%22%2C%20%22webb%22
It is a shame they haven’t listed the unbeaten team.
Could the Ascot racecourse be the location of the family photo in 1929?
With Roy and Carl playing baseball in their loose shirts?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/275269928?searchTerm=%22ascot%20racecourse%22%2C%20%22baseball%22
David Morgan: I’m pretty sure that was Mr A. S. C. Webb, honorary secretary of the baseball summer league, who had just returned from a trip to America.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3964142
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203106213
@Nick
It was the Lane’s Motors unbeaten team I was interested in. Hoping to find JR Keane and possibly AN other.
@Pat @AT Curio has been doing great service here and on FB The Somerton Man and probably on Ancestry and Family Search, too. Pull in your claws you cats from a female.
@Steve H Lord CoB Describing Curio’s comments as working class sounds classist: the Webbs from Somerset and Wiltshire descend from the Baronets of “Odstock” the richest landowners in English history higher class than LordCoB.
@Steve H I don’t know what you are talking about saying I like my own comments, but Peter Davidson, whose wife is a great niece or great grandniece of Dorothy Jean Robertson, just told me he likes my comment. I repeat I am in contact with relatives Webb, Lockyer and Robertson.
@Pat You said why do I need comment here if I am in contact with these relatives: Peter Davidson watches theses comments and sometimes comments. You did not complain about RichardD commenting here when he comments on the FaceBook The Somerton Man page while he comments here he has contacted people such as those who knew Geoffrey Lockyer and Dorothy in Bute.
David Morgan: back in the Aussie colonial days baseball was played as a winter competition sport, reason being to enable serious grade cricketers to keep their ground fielding form up to scratch for next season. So if’n Jack the boy was up to that level he was likely doing something similar himseself.
Mitch W….Don’t take anything Steve H says too seriously, he was dropped on his scone as a babe, more than once apparently. My strictly personal point of view is that although you have been chasing a lost cause with Charlie you’ve given Stirling Service towards keeping up waning team moral nonetheless. The time will come soon enough when, along with other dispirited upper echelon Webbites you may need to weigh up your options for release, eg., falling on a well honed Wilkinson blade or swallowing the whole sword if preferred. No need to take it all upon your own shoulders or feel poorly used, afterall you fought the good fight for what you believed in and no one should expect more from such an honourable servant.
Has anyone checked Dorothy Jean Locker (sic) in the 1954 electoral rolls in Victoria (Division Indi)? Maybe a typo? There’s only this mention of her on Ancestry.
Maybe Doff and Geoff were already separated by then and she only returned to SA for the divorce proceedings, when she was admitted to Wallaroo Hospital in 1955 (emergency)?
Never mind, she’s mentioned on Trove living at Strathmerton.
More Stratfords (with photos). And more mysteries?
Dorothy Olive Stratford, born 1897 at Buln Buln, mother ‘Flo May’ Stratford, father ‘unknown,’ had 2 sons, Lawrence Charles ‘Laurie’, born in 1918 at Carlton, (Vic BDM birth registration 25798/1918) and Albert Henry ‘Bill’, born in 1920 at Blackrock, (Vic BDM birth reg 16286/1920 says Chas Albert Stratford, born at Sandringham), both father ‘unknown,’ before marrying Roy Septimus Linklater Burlison in 1924 (Vic BDM marriage reg 12620/1924). They had 3 children, Evelyn who died in infancy, John and Doris.
The Canberra Times (ACT : 1926 – 1995)
Sáb 13 mar 1993
Page 20
Family Notices
DEATHS
BURLISON, Dorothy Olivia.
—14 August 1897 —
11 March 1993.
Kankinya Nursing Home,
Canberra. Late of Warwick
Farm, NSW. Dearly loved
wife of Roy (dec), loving
mother of Laurie Stratford
(Townsville), Albert Stratford
(dec). Evelyn Burlison (dec),
John Burlison (Cheltenham,
NSW). Doris Ellem (Canberra),
mother-in-law of Deidre,
Arthur, Margaret and Rita.
Much loved sister of Ruby
(NZ) and Myrtle (NZ), dear
Grandmother of Barbara,
Matthew, Andrew, Susan,
Steven, William and Rita.
Great-grandmother of David,
Chris, Leisha. Aiden and Kiri.
Great-great-granddaughter of
Mason Gerard Stratford, 5th
Earl of Aldborough.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/127201447#
If she was a descendant of Mason Gerard Stratford, 5th Earl of Aldborough, and was born around the same time as Alice Stratford, who was her father, and who was the father of her two sons, ‘Laurie’ and ‘Bill’? And where have her sisters Myrtle and Ruby been born/married/died?
Anyone with access to Ancestry could check this info, s’il vous plait?
According to a post on now defunct RootsWeb:
“Charles Alexander Stratford arrived in Melbourne in 1853, and his brothers Henry and Edward arrived about the same time.”
“Charles died in 1892 and his wife (Wilhelmina Louisa) moved to Mildura. Henry and his wife moved to Neerim South.”
Henry the brother, or Henry the son of Charles?
Henry, Charles’ brother, moved to Victoria Road, Hawthorn, around 1890-1891 (The Age, 22 Sep 1891), where he died in 1911.
His wife Marion (married in 1882) could have moved to Mildura and lived at the same house with Wilhelmina Louisa after his death.
A fire had destroyed the premisses of the Stratford Hotel and Store (owned by the Stratford Brothers, Charles and Henry) in St. Arnaud on 15 Jan 1896.
Wilhelmina Louisa has been mentioned in Court at St. Arnaud in 1908. In 1911 she is mentioned on her morther’s obituary living at St. Arnaud. She’s mentioned again in Court at St. Arnaud in 1915.
Ads published between 1916 and 1919 states Ladies’ Nurse, W. L. Stratford, Eight St. and after 1919, Lemon Ave, c/o Mrs. H. Stratford, in Mildura.
Henry Mason Gerard, Charles’ son, born in 1876, was 16 years old when his father died in 1892 and 21 when Dorothy Olivia was born (1897).
He only married widow Ethel Eudora Robertson (nee Manhire) in 1914 (aged 38). They had one daughter Thelma Georgina, born in 1916, in Mildura. He died at Ringwood in 1950.
I wonder if Dorothy Olivia was his daughter? I haven’t been able to find her mother ’Flo May Stratford’ yet. Was she a Stratford (single mother) or married to a Stratford (widow).
There’s a mention of Dorothy Stratford, a student at Croydon, planting trees in 1913, but maybe she would be too old to be Dorothy Olivia.
Neerim South and Buln Buln are in the same region, as well as Croydon and Ringwood, which makes me think that Henry Mason Gerard could have been the father of Dorothy Olivia, and perhaps Alice?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/127201447#
The Lilydale Express and Yarra Glen, Wandin Yallock, Upper Yarra, Healesville and Ringwood Chronicle (Vic. : 1898 – 1914)
Sex 18 jul 1913
Page 5
CROYDON ARBOR DAY.
(…) Tree planting, the young
plants for which, having been
propagated in the school grounds,
were transplanted, and twelve
lovely girls, Misses Pearl Allen,
Dorothy Stratford, Myrtle Knee,
Vera Selleck, Elsie Bryne, Jessie
Hall, Rita Woods, Hilda Goodwin,
Doreen Hembrew, Bella
Smith, May Clark and Vera Dobbin,
were chosen to name the
trees. (…)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/258399562#
“Story
Eliza Linklater born in Stromness, Orkney Islands on 11th January 1855, the sixth of eight children of William Linklater (b. 1813, d. 17 March 1882, Kirbister, Orkney) and his wife Margaret Stockand (b. 1818).
Eliza\’s siblings spread across the world: William, a blacksmith (b. 1840) was drowned in Hudson Bay, Canada on 25 July 1863. David, a shoemaker (b. 1842, d. 11 June 1893) came to Melbourne, Victoria. Samuel (b. 1853) became a doctor and went to Portland, Oregon where he was knocked down and killed by a streetcar. Jacob, a Minister of the Free Church died near Ballarat, Victoria on 9 October, 1898. Eliza also had three sisters: Eliza (same name) who died 12 December 1853 aged 2 years 8 months, Margaret (b. 1849), and Hellen (b. 1859). The latter two also went to Portland, Oregon where they married into well known timber families.
Eliza came to Melbourne in 1875 as a 20 year old to help her brother David in his shoe shop in the Melbourne suburb of Carlton. Here she met William Burlison, a local baker, who was the son of Nicholas Burlison of Chewton, Castlemaine, Victoria. Nicholas was born at Heddon-on-the-Wall, Northumberland, England in July 1817 and arrived in Sydney on the ‘Telegraph\’ in September 1853.
Eliza and William married on 29 September 1887 and had four children: Albert, born 1888; Margarita, born 1890; Lillian, born 1892; Roy, born 1894. Albert became Chief Fire Officer at Eastern Hill Station in Melbourne and served there for many years. The two girls married and had families. Roy, the youngest enlisted in the AIF the day he turned 21 and went to France in 1916 with the 8th Brigade, Field Artillery, 3rd Division, Australian Imperial Force. He served in Ypres, on the Somme and most of the major engagements before eventually arriving home to Melbourne about July 1919. He met Dorothy Stratford, a great granddaughter of the 5th Earl of Aldborough. They married and had three children: Evelyn who died in infancy, John and Doris.
John married Margaret Cooke and had a daughter Susan, who is the mother of two children. John became principal of Kurrajong East Public School (near Richmond, NSW). Doris married Arthur Ellem, a Wing Commander in the RAAF and a great, great, great grandson of Ann Forbes, a First Fleeter. They had two sons, Matthew and Andrew and four grandsons, who all at the time of writing (August 2006) reside in Canberra with their families.
And so, the generations go on.”
https://immigrationplace.com.au/story/eliza-linklater/
Lawrence Charles ’Laurie’ Stratford
Daily News (Sydney, NSW : 1938 – 1940)
Sex 2 fev 1940
Page 3
EYES ON THE BALL
EYES
ON THE
BALL
The defence forces go into, action— Telegraphist Bill
McCartney, and Aircraftsman Laurie Stratford, try out
the ping-pong table at the Anzac Buffet.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236374600
Beethoven Preferred
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/259003434
YOUNG MAN?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/259003433
Albert Henry (Bill) Stratford
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=4603279&S=24&N=63&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=4603279&T=P&S=49
https://findagrave.com/memorial/189575748/albert-henry-stratford?
Another potential father for Alice was her ‘brother’ Charles Frederick Byron Stratford who died very young (22) in 1896. I haven’t been able to find anything about him apart from date of birth and death, but there is a death registration of a May Stratford, who died aged 4 in 1884 in St Arnaud, father Frederick Stratford, mother Elizabeth Wallis. Who was this Frederick?
Dorothy Olivia was the daughter of May Georgina Florence Stilling Stratford who married Ernest Henry Kilmister in 1907 in New Zealand. They had 3 children: Mabel Ruby, Vera Myrtle and Horace Gordon.
May Georgina Florence Stilling Stratford was the daughter of Charlotte Florence Stratford, sister of Charles Alexander Stratford. She was born in 1871 in New Zealand, where she died in 1951.
Now, who was the father of Dorothy Olivia?
Interesting information on the Stratfords, including the reason why Charles Alexander, and brothers Henry and Edward went to Australia.
“A number of the children of Mason Gerard Stratford (a rather controversial figure: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Colin/Misc/Stratfords/Stratfords12.html ) were baptised in Italy in 1850 (see familysearch.org), including a Charlotte and a Byron.
From newspaper records, Byron Stratford joined the Navy as a Clerk’s Assistant in 1853, by 1861 was Assistant Paymaster on the Orlando.
In 1864 there was an accident at Tunis, on the 3rd November, when a cutter belonging to the HMS Orlando overturned in a squall; eight officers, three seamen, and a marine were lost, the coxswain being the only man saved. Byron Stratford, assistant paymaster, was among the deceased officers. He is listed as Hon. Byron Stratford in a death notice published in January 1865.
This does lend some weight to the connection between Florence Stratford in NZ and Charlotte Stratford the daughter of Mason Gerard Stratford. Newspaper records also show that three of the sons were in Leghorn and in some trouble in 1851/2 relating to some secret society hostile to the Tuscan government and connected with Mazzini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Mazzini ): Henry, called “Lord Aldborough”, aged 23, sentenced to 10 years (originally sentenced to death), Charles, set free (originally sentenced to a year’s imprisonment), Edward, 19, sentenced to 6 years (originally sentenced to death)
One record mentions that although they were considered the sons of the Earl of Aldborough during his lifetime, they were never able to prove their legitimacy, and were left “without much resource” upon his death. Another mentions that although “Lady Aldborough”, their mother, was at home when their residence was raided in 1851, two daughters had just a fortnight before been sent to England.
One of the daughters is probably Olivia Stratford, in later censuses in England born Belgium, and listed among those christened in 1850. Another record from 1852 mentions “Lady O”, one of two supposed daughters of the Earl of Aldborough, regarding poor treatment at the Sisters of Mercy in Plymouth, after they had arrived there from Italy.
A Charlotte Stratford appears on NZ passenger immigration lists in 1865 at familysearch but the site is misbehaving right now so I can’t access the full details.”
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=589081.9
“Hi Margaret,
From what I have found they didn’t actually marry.
They meet in Greymouth on the west coast of NZ where TWS was most likely working as a drapers assistant. This would have been during 1870. TWS is another story which is far to much to go into now.
Her full name was Lady Charlotte Florence Stratford the daughter of Mason Gerald Stratford the 5th Earl of Aldborough and Countess Mary Arundel. Unfortunately she died young aged 30 after returning to England to visit her mother who was ill and eventually died.
Florence moved to NZ after her father died and their family had fallen into financial problems, they were broke. She was living with Henry Aldorough Stratford Henniker, a nephew of Lord Henniker.
As I said from what I have found they didn’t actually marry possibly because TWS was still married to Dinah Tapper.
Their relationship however did result in a child, May Georgina Florence Stilling, born in May 1871. Florence as she was also called married Leonard Henry Ernest Kilmister in 1907 in Wellington and lived until she was 80.
Chucky”
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=586176.9
S&M has Mrs. Marian Stratford (Henry Stratford’s widow) at Thomas Street, Sandringham in 1920, so it’s probable that Dorothy Olivia was staying with her when she gave birth to Albert Henry.
S&M has Hy. M. Stratford at Devon-st, Box Hill in 1910, Mrs. Stratford, brdnghse, Croydon in 1915 and Mrs. Marian Stratford at Thomas Street, Sandringham in 1920, so it’s probable that Dorothy Olivia was staying with her when she gave birth to Lawrence in 1918 and Albert Henry in 1920.
The Maitland Mercury and Hunter River General Advertiser (NSW : 1843 – 1893)
Wed 7 Jul 1852
Page 3
British Extracts.
British Extracts.
ITALY SENTENCES OF THE SONS OF LORD
ALDBOROUGH. The Austrian ” Imperial and
Royal Military Commando of the port and town
of Leghorn” published on the 26th December
its sentence on the young Stratfords, sons of
the late Lord Aldborough, and their fellow
prisoners, accused of seditious conspiracy to
overthrow the legitimate monarchial government
of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, and to
erect in its stead a revolutionary government of
a democratic republican form.” Henty Stratford,
aged twenty-three years, native of Paris,
and thirty-eight other prisoners, were sentence to
death by hanging, for conspiracy and con-
cealment of arms; Edward Stratford, aged
nineteen years, native of Belgium, was sentenced
to death by shooting, for the same crimes ;
Charles Stratford, aged twenty-one years, native
of Belgium, was sentenced to detention in irons
in a fortress during one year, for printing revolutionary
papers ; five other prisoners were
sentenced to terms of imprisonment. But Field
Marshal Ridetsky, ” from clemency, and in deference
to the law actually existing in the Grand
Duchy of Tuscany,” has mitigated the sentences
of death to periods of imprisonment for twelve
years and less. Henry Stratford is to be imprisoned
for ten years; Edward Stratford for
six years. Charles Stratford and another are
set at liberty, the time spent in prison during
the trial being sufficient punishment for them.
The alleged fact that the Stratfords are British
subjects is ignored! by the judgments of the
Austrian Commando-Spectator, Jan. 10.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/667015#
The Maitland Mercury and Hunter River General Advertiser (NSW : 1843 – 1893)
Sat 9 Oct 1852
Page 4
British Extracts.
THE YOUNG STRATFORDS.—In the Mather case,
as part of the “compensation” extorted from the
Tuscan Government, our envoy laid much stress
on the release by the Tuscans of the two young
Stratfords, aged 23 and 20 years respectively,
after an imprisonment, at Leghorn and Florence,
of nearly twelve months, for a supposed partici-
pation in the plots of the Italians. During this
period these young men underwent long and
secret trials, ending in condemnation to death,
without the aid of advocates, or communications
with the British authorities—for they were
friendless, penniless, and nearly parentless—
their father, a totally impoverished and dissolute
Irish peer, having died a few months previously,
and the mother deserted her children. The
young men, since their release, have arrived in
Liverpool by the Orontes; and the Mayor wrote
to the Foreign Office to know what was to be done
with them, as they had neither pecuniary expec-
tations nor means to earn a livelihood. The
Government refused to interfere, or give any
directions respecting them. The result is, that
this town is threatened with the support of the
Stratfords, or they may die of want, unless, with
the liberality for which our merchants are noted,
private benevolence should release them from
their present deplorable condition. It is now
proposed to raise a fund sufficient to send tbem
to Australia, and the Mayor has liberally
headed the subscription by £5.-Liverpool
Journal.
https//trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/662489
Henry (18) and Edward (21) Stratford are on the passenger list of the Rip Van Winkle arriving at Melbourne in November 1852, and Charles A. Stratford (23) arriving one year later abord the Sea Range. The ages don’t match exactly, but it’s likely to be them.
Has anybody tracked down Edward in Australia? Geni and FamilySearch have him born in 1850 and died 2 years later, but obviously that’s not the case. He and his siblings were all christened around 1850.
(not that anyone seems interested!)
Was Edward actually called Henry Edward and the the other Henry, Henry Mason?
If that’s correct, Henry Edward Stratford was the junior clerk in the office of the Chief Commissioner of Crown Lands in 1863, insolvent of Manly Beach, lately residing at Gundagai, gentleman’, on 24 March 1865, ‘appointed to be Agent for the sale of Crown lands at Casino and Clerk of Petty Sessions at Casino, to take effect from the 17th instant, and Registrar of the District Court at that place,’ in Nov 1870, and ‘Registrar of Births, Deaths, and Marriages for the District of Richmond River,’ in Dec 1870, magistrate of the colony in 1872, member of the Public School Board, Casino in 1874, married on 18 December 1875 at St. Mary’s,Balmain, by the Rev. Thomas Kennis, to Wilhelmina Lyne, eldest daughter of the late F. A.Stratford, father of Mason Gerard in 1878 (d. 1950), Francis Paul in 1882 (d. 1962), Crown Lands Agent at Condobolin in 1883, insolvent again in 1884, father of Temple Frederick A in 1884 (d. 1960), and was still alive on 28 March 1922.
Not sure if he was a member and secretary of the Melbourne Cricket Club in 1854.
More Stratfords in NSW to land a hand to Dorothy?
Oops, apparently he died in 1890! The 1922 article is historic piece ‘The Casino Show’.
Pat,
I for one am captivated with your enthralling Stratford family history but, can we expect to see Something About Alice like sometime soon so’s we might at last be able to put her wayward child Dorothy to rest?.
Mason Gerard married Alice J Dryhurst in 1908.
Their daughter, Amelia Wilhelmina Esme, was born in 1911.
She married on January 27, 1934, at Sydney Church of England Grammar School Chapel, Arthur Frederick, eldest son of Mr. and Mrs. F. A. Browne.
Esme’s wedding photo https://imgur.com/a/Y7gLcSo
(does she resemble one of the two candidates for debutante Dorothy in 1938?)
Francis Paul married Doris Elsie (Elise D) von der Heyde in 1911.
He was appointed a Justice of the Peace in 1943 and lived at Parramatta Street, Cronulla.
They had a son, Dennis Paul, in 1912.
Temple Frederick Augustus married Annette von der Heyde in 1922.
Young Esme’s poems, letters and crossword puzzles can be read on Trove (The Triad: a journal devoted to literacy, pictorial, musical and dramatic art, and the Sydney Mail).
She loved music and reading, and didn’t like leaving school for hols.
She would have been a better match with Carl.
Amelia Wilhelmina Esme Stratford married again on 7 April 1956, at Perth (reg 881 / 1956) to Alfred Lawrence, son of Richard Lawrence and Louisa Eleanor Hitchcock.
This info is on a family website https://www.nbradley.id.au/Martin-o/p196.htm
Around the same time that Doff could have married again. So… it’s not impossible to find this information, the truth is out there.
According to the excellent book The Anglo Florentines – The British in Tuscany 1814-1860, by Diana and Tony Webb (!!), the Stratfords, Henry, Edward, and Charles, ‘were duly delivered up and whisked out of the country [Italy] on 16 May [1852]’
‘They arrived in Liverpool, destitute, at the end of May. The mayor, predictably, received no help from the Foreign Office when he asked what he was to do with them (FO79/162, FO to Thomas Littledale, 4 June 1852), and eventually opened a subscription on their behalf.’
This date corroborates the arrival of Henry and Edward at Melbourne in November 1852, and Charles Alexander in 1853.
Henry Edward Stratford’s death registration has a typo, his name was registered as Henry Strahford (10325/1890), place of death: Parramata. Father and mother ‘unknown’.
More interesting reading…
‘Now I must speak of Lord Aldborough and his family [Mason Gerard Stratford 1784-1849, buried in the New English Cemetery of Livorno, NdR]. He must have been, to say the least of it, a very peculiar man, who lived in a large house in Leghorn in the Via dei Condotti [nowadays Via de’ Larderel], on the opposite side to where the Macbeans lived. Mr Alexander Macbean was Papa’s chief at the Consulate. He was the Consul, and Papa the Vice Consul. Well Lord Aldborough had a very large family, there were three grown-up sons and one quite a lad, and two grown-up daughters, and one about 13 or 14 I fancy and a little one. During their Father’s lifetime there were some dreadful quarrels among the young men, and one of them shot at another. Papa was sent for, to call them to order. It seemed strange at the time to me, why the parents could not manage to quiet their own sons without having a comparative stranger sent for. Anyway I believe Papa succeeded. Some time after Lord Aldborough died [Oct. 15th, 1849, NdR], and it was found out that the so-called Lady Aldborough [Mary Arundell, NdR] was not entitled to the name. There had been three wives, and the first one, the real Lady Aldborough was alive [Teresa Davenport, NdR], and all these young people were illegitimate. Lord Aldborough had had a great objection to having his children educated. One daughter Charlotte was for some time at the same school as Helen and myself, but sent by the mother without Lord Aldborough’s consent or knowledge. After his death all the daughters and some of the sons used to join a Sunday class held by Mr. Sleeman, the Clergyman, in the Church. Then the tree eldest sons got into great scraps by joining some Italian secret revolutionary society. They were seized and thrown into a fearful dungeon, in a fortress at the entrance to the Leghorn inner mole. Helen may remember that fortress, as she has been in Leghorn since my time, and I still remember it.
Then there was the great correspondence between the British and Italian Governments, the British trying to get these three young men out of Italy. Papa, of course, had a great deal to do with it, and at last he got them out, only to ship them off to Australia. I do not know if they ever saw their mother or their sisters. Evidently, they educated themselves, as, many years afterwards I met one of them as Warden or Chief Magistrate of some of the New Zealand Goldfields. Of course they were all badly off, for all that their Father left went to the first wife and family. The so-called Lady Aldborough came to live in the same house that we did for some time, then went to England. She gave us 6 beautiful French cups and saucers; my cup got broken, but I have kept the pieces. I afterwards had it mended and put together.’
https://leghornmerchants.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/mary-thompson/
I wonder who shot who!
Did he manage to evade his sentence this time?
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Mon 29 Sep 1884
Page 6
INTERCOLONIAL NEWS.
INTERCOLONIAL NEWS.
(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH)
[FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENTS]
NEW SOUTH WALES.
SYDNEY, SUNDAY.
At the Quarter Sessions, Forbes, yester
day, Edward Henry Stratford, charged
with feloniously converting to his own
use £54, the property of the Crown,
pleaded guilty and was sentenced to five
years’ hard labor. The prisoner is now
60 years of age, and was Crown lands agent
at Condobolin and a justice of the peace, and
had been over 20 years in the Government
service.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191473544
Mary Thompson got it wrong.
Mr. H. A. Stratford was the Warden at Kumara’s mining distric in New Zealand.
Australian Town and Country Journal (Sydney, NSW : 1870 – 1919)
Sat 1 Apr 1882
Page 23
NEW ZEALAND.
DISSATISFACTION AT KUMARA.—A large number
of miners assembled by announcement at Dilman’s
Town on March 3, and hold an indignation meeting
to protest against the vexatious delay occurring by
tho present conduct of business of the warden’s
court ; also to take into consideration the advisa
bility of forming a Board for Kumara. The follow
ing resolutions were passed almost unanimously :
” That in the opinion of this meeting the indifferent
mode of administering mining law and the conduct of
mining business by the warden, Mr. H. A. Stratford,
at Kumara, in the warden’s court, is very unsatisfac
tory and vexatious, and that the delays retard the
general progress of the district. That a petition be
sent round for signature, praying Government to
relieve Warden Stratford of his duties as warden of
the Kumara mining district. That the chairman of
the meeting forward a copy of the foregoing resolu
tions to tho Minister for Justice, and ask him to
changoethe warden with as little delay as possible.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70967398
He appears in a list of passengers to London on 19 Oct 1876. (Durham s.s.)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5906360
His biography on WikiTree
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Henniker-2
“POVERTY BAY HERALD, VOLUME XXVIII, ISSUE 9261, 26 SEPTEMBER 1901 Mr H. A. Stratford, S.M., of Dunedin, gazettes a change of his name in the following terms : —”I, Henry Aldborough Stratford, of Dunedin, in the colony of New Zealand, barrister-at-law, do hereby give notice that, in compliance with the request of the Honorable Lady Henniker, and out of love and affection, I have assumed, and intend henceforth upon all occasions and at all times to sign and use and to be called and known by, the name of Augustus with and before Henry Aldborough, and the surname of His Excellency the Right Honorable Lori Hartismere — Stratford-Henniker — in lieu of and in substitution of my present surnames of Stratford.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/PBH19010926.2.35?query=stratford-henniker&sort_by=byDA&items_per_page=10&snippet=true
Confirmation that Charles Alexander arrived Nov 1953 in the Sea Ranger, and that his brother, who was already in Australia, was H. E. S. (Henry Edward Stratford).
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Sat 3 Jun 1854
Page 2
Advertising
CHARLES A. STRATFORD. who arrived last Nov-
vember in the Sea Ranger, is requested to send his
name in full, and address to H. E. S., office of this
paper.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4808787?searchTerm=%22charles%20a.%20stratford%22#
Alice was living in Mildura with her brother or father Alfred Edward Stratford at Eighth Street, before her marriage.
She still appeared as an elector qualified to vote in Jan 1922.
Unless Alfred Edward married someone called Alice, but I can’t find any marriage registration on his name.
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic. : 1920 – 1950)
Sat 21 Jan 1922
Page 4
THE MILDURA HOTEL
Names cf Electors Qualified to
Vote
(…)
Stratford, Alfred
Edward, Eighth St.; Stratford, Alice,
Eighth St.; Stratford, Ethel, Thirteenth
St. and Etiwanda Av.; Stratford, Henry
Mason Gerard, Thirteenth St. and Etiwanda
Av.; Stratford, Louisa, Lemon
Av.; (….)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/258528974
There seems to be a historical error regarding the firstborn child of the 5th Earl
Of Aldborough and Mary Arundel.
Henry Edward was older than Henry Mason, according to their death notices in the newspapers and the Rip van Winkle’s passengers list., unless they lied about their age or names.
Sorry for the typos above. Charles A Stratford arrived in the Sea Ranger in 1853 (not Sea Range, and not 1953). Small phone screen and getting old…
I wonder whether Dorothy was one of the many women who went to work at Woomera – perhaps through contacts of Enid Campbell, nee Wall. Pat’s research points to Dorothy meeting Geoff in Adelaide, rather than Bute and Richard D’s picture is of one where Dorothy wasn’t really known well in the town. She may have had a tryst with Geoff in Adelaide, or perhaps he wasn’t even the father of her child… This could explain her both being in South Australia and falling off the map… The marriage looks to have been a bit of transactional affair. Her divorce from Charlie, however, had a bit of time and money invested in it.
Pat,
I assume you are tracking the Stratford family tree – and perhaps pruning some of the branches and adding some others. But is there a roadmap you are following like the family tree on familysearch or your own?
For the one Irish member – the Richard Walsh line – German ancestor – he seems to have died at the battle of Lutzen. I wondered where the evidence is.
Ancestry have
Richard of Carrickmines Walsh Birth 1505 – Carrickmaines, County Dublin
Death 10 Jul 1580 – Carrickmaines, County Dublin
It reminds me of my contact with an LDS researcher when i pointed out one of their heroes may have been linked to crime he simply made him deceased. Naughty man gone.
Jo: did you ever think on the possibilties of Dorothy being a loose lady. If you’re short on evidence, there be her dubious occupation of podiatrist with no ticket or place of employment to show, plus her second husband’s apparent preference for prostitutes. I did bring up the possibility of her working out of the Red Hen 24 hour GI bar at 445 St. Kilda Rd. and that got no takers despite there being ads for female staff when the joint opened in ’42, it being a five minute walk from Bromby Street.
The Tumut and Adelong Times (NSW : 1864 – 1867; 1899 – 1950)
Thu 30 Mar 1865
Page 2
GENERAL INTELLIGENCE.
New Insolvent.— Henry Edward Stratford,
Manly Beach, late of Gundagai, gentleman.
Cause of Insolvency, pressure of a creditor.
Liabilities, £255 ; assets, £10 ; deficiency,
£245. Mr. Sempill, official assignee. [The
creditor herein mentioned is no other than our
selves. The debt sought to recover was £12,
for cash advanced, which had been standing for
six years. This, and a few other similar good
marks, are what we are expected to live by,
and which probably give rise to the remark that
we are liberally supported in the district. Such
support we had far better be without. We
have a few more Stratford’s in our books, whom
we should be glad to hear from before they file
their schedules through pressure after several
years’ credit.— ED. T. & A. T.]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144776802
The ‘few more Stratfords in our books’ could have been family members of Frederick Augustus Stratford, Esq., future father-in-law of Henry Edward.
He was born in Middlesex in 1825, to Francis and Eliza Stratford.
He married Wilhelmina Elizabeth Lyne in London on 9 Aug 1848.
He was a bank clerk in 1850 when their daughter, Wilhelmina Lyne, was born. They had another daughter in 1851, Emily Lyne.
He must have gone to Australia around 1852, the same year that Henry Edward and Henry Mason Stratford arrived.
On 21 Sep 1853, at Sydney,’ in the 28th year of her age, Wilhelmina Elizabeth, the beloved wife of Mr. Frederick A. Stratford, late of De Beauvoir Town,
London,’ died.
He was the accountant of the Chartered Bank of Australia in 1854.
He married again on 3 Nov 1855, at Trinity Church, Williamstown, to Jane Harriet, widow of the late Morris McDonald Honour, Esq., of Hackney, London.
They had a son, William Frederick Lovegrove, b. 1857, and a daughter, Alice Lovegrove, b. 1858 at Williamstown.
He was a member of the first municipal council of Williamstown (1856), and the Philosophical Institue of Victoria (1857), appointed magistrate in Victoria on 4 Nov 1961, treasurer (1857), sub-manager (1857- Feb 1861), and manager of the English, Scottish and Australian Chartered Bank branch in Williamstown and general manager in the Sydney branch between 1865-1875.
In 1865 he lived at Elizabeth Street, in the city of Melbourne, county of Bourke.
He owned many elegant villas throughout his life in Sydney.
He died suddenly on 22 July 1875 at the Bank of NSW, same year of the marriage of his daughter Wilhelmina Lyne with Herny Edward (18 December).
During the trial of Alexander Sage for forging and uttering a cheque of £500 on the Joint Stock Bank on 5 Feb 1858, William Henry Stratford (witness) was a clerk in the manager’s office of the English, Scottish, and Australian Chartered Bank.
(I don’t know if he was a relative, still searching)
Interestingly, Alexander Sage had been an accountant at the Melbourne branch and the acting accountant at the Sydney branch of the English, Scottish and Australian Chartered Bank in 1853, and sub-manager at the Williamstown branch 3 years before the trial, (1855), according to Mr. Dalley, manager of the same bank and witness for the defence.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12950791
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12949219
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60264789
Were the Stratfords aware of Mr. Sage’s activities in Williamstown and Sydney?
William Henry Stratfordd was the accountant of the Adelaide branch of the English, Scottish and Australian Chartered Bank in 1877, and resigned on 30 Sep 1879 after 25 years of service, meaning he started working there around the same time as Frederick Augustus, probably his brother.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197734469?searchTerm=%22w.%20h.%20stratford%22#
@Pat,
Perhaps there were circumstances that drove Sage to crime – like his wife needing expensive medical treatment before she died or her sudden death and he didn’t have the funds to bury her.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60508519?searchTerm=%22alexander%20sage%22
or childbirth related
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60481111?searchTerm=%22alexander%20sage%22
or simply he was a repeat offender?
They seemed to lose their children before they get to 2.
@David Morgan,
Interesting yarn about Sage the cash strapped bank teller who took the liberty of obtaining a much needed advance from his employer without approval, intention being to repay it with interest when his situation improved. My Grandad W.H. did something similar about the turn of the century in Qld. He was caught and charged with larceny as servant upon Union Bank Toowoomba then bailed to appear at Brisbane criminal sittings. Of course he failed to appear and got the first available passage to Fiji where he was still good for a lone and stayed until the warrant for his arrest expired pre WW1. Grandad married a nice Kiwi girl of good standing with the pair eventually settling in Oz, a respectable distance from Toowoomba, where they had seven kids including me mum. My fishing mate uncle Ced must be at least a hundred yet from all reports he still retains his lust for life including a poor diet a crook back, plus a lusting for the traditional vices like beer fags and sheilas in that order with moderation; born of hard Yakka and a reasonably honest God fearing upbringing. How’s about that for a tale with a happy outcome mate, but deserves to get bumped for not being thread worthy in any way shape or form.
On 17 Jan 1939 The Sun News-Pictorial (Melbourne) published:
Misses Elwyn Singleton and Beatrice
Reither have returned from Lorne, where
they were the guests of Miss Reither’s
sister, Mrs. G S. Clissold.
Beatrice and Bessie Reither (Mrs. George Stephen Clissold, m. 1938, d. 1983 at Lorne) were daughters of Ernest Albert Reither (Wilhlemina Louisa’s brother) and Marion Bryce (they had 11 children).
Beatrice was born in 1920, same year as Dorothy, who was on a 14-day holiday at Lorne in March 1946.
She stated in the divorce affidavit that at the time ‘all this led to breaking up old friendships of mine’, so maybe she was at the Clissold’s house with Beatrice and Bessie.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/278224673
@JS,
One does ones best to support the team with additional background info. There is something interesting with blogs and stuff – reading is optional. There was a popular phrase a few years back – Jog on…that’s what you do when not interested.
But you will be tested on Pat’s genealogy and no conferring.
I wish I could get into the Sun News Pictorial. They don’t like us Brits.
@ Pat – I think this story is very plausible! Are you also thinking that perhaps she went to Beatrice post Carl?
Passenger list, arrivals in Victoria from foreign ports, 1852-1923 (available on PROV).
Liverpool (27 July 1852), arriving at Port Phillip.
Edward Stratford, 21, b. 1831
Henry Stratford, 18, b. 1834
Found Henry Stratford’s’s grave, waiting for a photo on Findagrave.
His name has a typo; again and a different one. This sort of thing is what gives me hope to find Dorothy’s resting place.
All of the other members of his family are buried elsewhere. He is the only one buried in a Catholic cemetery, as far as I know. His wife is buried at the Anglican Section of the Woronora Memorial Park.
Rookwood Catholic Cemeteries and Crematoria
Henry Strafford
Passed Away: Unknown
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Register Number: 2202558
Service Date: 13 Feb 1890
Burial Type: Buried
Location: Section Grave, Mortuary 1, 12, Grave 828
I think his age is also wrong. Fingers crossed there’s an inscription.
This is my last post on this blog.
@ John Sanders
Thank you for reminding me why some of these people have stopped commenting on this blog.
@ Nick Pelling,
Good luck to you (and Derek Abbott) with the Voynich stuff.
Pat,
I will miss you more than you can know. Too bad this site isn’t actually “moderated,” and that the rampant incivility here is allowed to proliferate unchecked. Your invaluable contributions are one of the precious-few remaining reasons I even bother to continue to visit. The exhaustive and outstanding research you’ve posted has been among the most exciting and fruitful. How lucky we’ve been to be the recipients of it and of all the uniquely-relevant thoughts you’ve single-handedly contributed to the discussion. I don’t think I ever would have decided to jump into the fray and begin posting if I hadn’t been inspired by your extraordinary finds. In the end, I found that being the target of uninvited nastiness just wasn’t worth it anymore. I wonder if those who delight in the destruction of the most valued members here realize that they are killing the goose who lays the golden eggs. I believe they’re going to regret their behavior which has continued unabated here for far too long. How ironic it all is, considering that the man who is the subject of this blog took his own life on a lonely beach in South Australia. Wouldn’t you think that the lesson of his life and sad end would be to try and treat others in a way that makes them feel respected and valued, rather than delighting in their gleeful destruction and ripping them to shreds? I have no doubt that Charlie could have benefited from the very civility in his own daily life that is so sorely and inexcusably lacking here.
All the best to you, Pat. Very sad to see you go.
Pat: de nada!
On the grapevine, I am hearing more will be revealed about Dorothy by SAPOL in the coming weeks. We will have more to discuss here, soon.
@ AT
Shedding crocodile tears for the Somerton man is easy now. But what explains your having speculated (https://ciphermysteries.com/2023/11/17/on-the-trail-of-dorothy-robertson#comment-502282) all that you did then (knowing that he was the one who ended up dying, and had been trying, first and foremost, to kill himself, even according to DJR’S own account, his desperate threats not to revive him withstanding, expressed as a depressed man)? Pat, recently accused him of having “possibilities” of rape intentions, aside from matters of violence accusations claimed by DJR in a court when he did not have a chance to offer his case because he was dead of course (where in the world in a court does only one side’s presentation of a claim is treated with a routine opinion such as “I don’t think she would lie to the Court”, https://ciphermysteries.com/2023/11/17/on-the-trail-of-dorothy-robertson#comment-502266> Is this what a standard scientific treatment of a case is supposed to be?
Where is the evidence in the prolific Pat’s investigation claimed to be scientific for Carl Webb having had intentions of rape! He is dead and cannot not speak for himself, but you are all alive and can read even what DJR wrote.
Don’t you think DJR would not have hesitated to use that term for CW, had he had such an intention? On the contrary, is not DJR complaining for his actually being maritally aloof, going to bed at 7, appreciating the occasions when he was charming, remembering affectionately their last intimate relations in Jan. 1946, when she say he shared with her his desire to separate, after which DJR was actually interested to talk to him more about it? Is there anything in that report, in DJR’s own words, that suggest CW was “sexually” aggressive toward her? If so, why did she herself not use the term about him?
Why does Pat give herself the right to pass such quick judgments against a dead man, simply based on one side of the story heard from someone who was herself proven, and affirmed, in a court of law, when both sides were actually represented, for having been habitually cruel, emphasis on both words. Habits don’t form overnight, do they?
Pat and you say she would not lie, so, ok, then you should be supposedly basing your judgment on what she actually said. But she did no even herself claim he was sexually aggressive toward him, yet you find it plausible to impose your own preferred narratives on him, taking them for granted as being true, and then shed crocodile tears for him?
AT, you spoke of mistreatments going on on the site. Why is it fair game on this site to throw verbal abuse on men (or accusing someone of it, who denied it, still awaiting an apology regarding an offensive pseudonym used), and repeatedly invite those who perpetrate them back in the game, and remain silent when they do their thing, praising them instead for their behavior, since i have not read even a word from Pat, and you, about what treatment I received both times I shared on the silver platter on this site the most significant documents about the Somerton case? Nick Pelling set up a guest page for my contribution in both occasions, and all you can do is read down the page to see how it ended up. Why do your magnificently sharp research lenses not see the other side of the mistreatments going on in this site, under its overworked moderator’s watch?
Just because we are men gives you the right to ignore what treatment I have received from Pat’s end of the list favorite person, alphabetized not to hurt his feelings?
—–
On a separate matter that may be of interest, DA is planning to enlighten others for an hour here on May 8, 2024 https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/secrets-of-the-somerton-man-with-professor-derek-abbott-tickets-802251083587, most likely repeats of what we already know, but who knows. I wonder why he is not referring to TSM as simply Carl Webb now, given he claims that to be the case. I understand it is more attention grabbing to use “the Somerton man” but why not throw the name “Carl Webb” in there somewhere? Perhaps there is an expectation that by May something else may be reported that we don’t know?
@Behrooz,
I have nothing bad to say about Pat. She is an amazing researcher. Her talent far exceeds most of us. I have seen her track down jewellery that takes a lot of late nights. She is allowed to have views about how sexist men were in the 1940s and I know from my own dad how he expected his meals to be put on the table by his wife while juggling the food budget. Personally, I think Carl wasn’t like that as he loved the Rubaiyat and while his family were playing ragtime jazz in clubs he was at home probably with the books on magnetism and engineering and self-teach book on bridge.
I think he did undergo a seachange when his family were dying left,right and centre. I think he did blame Dorothy for not helping his mother.
I also believed he pushed himself physically to build himself up from a 9st weakling to a 12st tough guy during the 1940s.
But I also think Dorothy lied in court. I find it impossible to believe JC Roberton was scared of Carl sitting in his car outside and if he had health issues he probably knew guys that would beat Carl up from his road gang. Carl would have been aware of his father-in-law and would not have kicked Dorothy.
If Abbott could find Dorothy and Pat couldn’t – he must have withheld some important detail all along.
@David Morgan Now we just need SteveH to join in to fill the void left by Pat.
@Curio: just what we don’t need, another void or to be precise, the return of one!
@curio,
It is a shame Pat didn’t just create the family tree with links to her evidence on familysearch and then we could all reference it as a big map when needed. Similar to the way AngelaH? did for the Webbs. I often reference the Webbs on familysearch as I can never remember which one married which person.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/portrait/LR91-PLH
I’m not sure who Angela H is…I guess only Nick knows.
Pat said when I joined day 1 she was going to do something like that on familysearch…
I have just returned from Adelaide where I had a look at some records at the State Records and the State Library.
I found a receipt from the Local Court of Bute dated 8th March 1954 where a Ronald Mackenzie MacIntosh, medical practitioner of 230 North Terrace Adelaide had lodged a claim for 15 pounds 16 schillings against Mrs G A Lockyer of Bute. I could not find any other reference to this claim so I assume it was settled.
Dr MacIntosh was born in Glasgow in 1918 and moved to Adelaide when 6 years of age. He graduated as a Doctor in 1941 and soon after joined the Australian Navy where he was later given an MBE for “his leadership and enterprise in recovering and treating the wounded”. This was after his ship was torpedoed by the Japanese in 1943. Following the war he began a career in obstetrics and gynaecology. He died in 1991.
Also found was a claim by Geoff Lockyer against a hotel in Whyalla for 5 pounds on 28th November 1955, not long after his marriage to Mary.
Lastly I had a look for death notices in the West Australian newspaper in 1976 and could only find 2 notices for Geoff, neither being from his wife Mary, although there could be another main Perth newspaper she used. This was the only one in the State Library.
Lockyer (Geoff). Happy memories of days gone by, Alma.
The other one only brings more questions than answers and could be a topic of research for anyone who wants to delve deeper.
Lockyer. In sad memory of Geoff. Beloved son of the late Alfred and Olive, brother of Joyce (dec), father of Alfie, Val and Ian. Inserted by his Aunt Flo Whitehead.
Did he have these children with his first wife Ada Teresa Jones? No children were mentioned on his death certificate but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. There is a Valma Wilkins mentioned on Ancestry, supposedly the daughter of Ada and her 2nd husband Michael/Percival Wilkins.
Anyway, none of this solves the missing Dorothy problem but it shows she left another record of her brief life in South Australia.
@ Richard – great research as always!
I know I always experience a small thrill when finding some primary source crumb relating to the bigger mystery – the idea of knitting a few threads together, (even if the sock is never completed)! We have Dorothy at the doctors, Geoff at the pub, which kind of fits with the schema built through these threads.
There’s also a sense of a real Dorothy, beyond all of our conjecture. It also prompts reflection on bigger questions of life, what can we ever know, what mundane things get left behind in the bigger picture of a life once lived… Senses of history, biography and the passing of time…
@DM: in re the Balint yarn, which you can download in entirety off UTS Sydney, I’ve since checked with her nominated newspaper article on Trove. Not unexpectedly there be no item about any Melbourne Woman’s missing electrician husband at all although there’s mention of 49 attempts at ID ing the beach body.
@JS If you re-read Balint she references ’44’ Feltus’ files not the newspaper for the electrician’s wife’s story. That’s why you can’t find it in the newspaper. It is the ’49’ she is referencing from the newspaper. It was a bit clumsy but she assumed Feltus was aware it was one of the 49. That it is why it is worth YOU contacting Feltus’ son who runs the shop now I believe and ask him for a copy from his file. Thereby YOU solve the Somerton man mystery as Carl Webb – from police evidence. He gets the kudos for having kept the evidence.
Two old coppers solve the SM Mystery from police evidence. If you’re not tempted then it means you are grinding an old axe and not willing to follow the evidence just like those old coppers in the Yorkshire Ripper case.
I told you I had an evil plan for you.
https://imgur.com/gallery/hj78M80
You and Pat are similar – she refuses to use AI and she would have been earning the big bucks as a prompt engineer as she has an ‘AI mind’. You refuse to explore the CW solution ‘evidence’ which could make you a famous old copper for solving it from the evidence not generic DNA grown in a lab.
@JS
Here is the 49 contacts reference. So it does make sense. She wrote it in a clumsy or deceptive way. When she knew these facts and let’s say it said Dorothy Webb why didn’t she want to research her?
https://imgur.com/gallery/rZ5ndqG
Jo: I did my best to explain but nobody listened, especially you. Dorothy Lockyer had an appendecomy at Calvary hospital Adelaide in 1953. Surgeon Macintosh in early 1954 went through Bute small claims court in order to recover his fifteen guinea fee. This was disputed by plaintiff on grounds of professional negligence and going by Doff’s susequent need for urgent remedial treatment at Wallaroo for post appendectomy adhesions, would be hard to flaw. As for Geoff’s going after his five pound surety bond refund for accomodation at the Whyalla pub, from what’s been said about his conduct on New Years ’52, he didn’t deserve it.
David Mugger,
My biggest contribution to the CW scam from memory, be my Robertson/Bennett theory of relativety that didn’t set well with CM admin nor most punters at the time. Sort of glad I left it to our Charlies Angels otherwise I might also have spent wasted months on an unproductive witch hunt for Dorothy Jean Webb @Lockyer @D’arcy, a lady of unknown means with no fixed place of abode post 1947.
@JS,
I know all your reservations etc but the one police file that ties Dorothy to Charlie to SM is in the dusty files of Feltus. It deserves an inspection to see whether the caller said she was Dorothy.
There are 3 scenarios – she didn’t give her name, she did but used a fake name, she used her real name.
What would you have to lose from asking junior Feltus for a peak at the specific file or ask Balint whether she copied it or remembered it. If it was a formal paper she should have copied it.
‘Potentially easier’ old Aussie copper to old Aussie copper or Balint might respond better to you. She has ignored everyone else.
PI.AI:
Without knowing more about Dorothy Jean Robertson’s specific relationship to the Stratford family, it’s difficult to say exactly which title she could have claimed.
However, if we assume that she was a direct descendant of Mason Gerard Stratford, the 5th Earl of Aldborough, she might have potentially been able to claim the title of Countess of Aldborough.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232800406?searchTerm=%22countess%20of%20aldborough%22
But there seems to have been a court case about who was legitimate.
@ Johnno – we listen, but we don’t always understand! You are the Nostradamus of these blogs – you know everything before other mere punters; however, we need to decipher your wisdom, often sandwiched between the white bread of rambling complaint. I applaud RichardD and Poppins for trawling through Council ledgers and court receipt books for a glimpse of something tangible linked to an elusive main player and Pat for her abilities to find new angles in Trove and to piece everything together from a distance. Does that mean other contributions are not worthwhile? Not at all!
@Jo Yes you are right, it’s always good to find something, anything!
I have just posted this information with the images I took at the time to “Identifying the Somerton Man” facebook page as I imagine not everyone reads this blog and some might be interested in even the smallest details.
Here’s hoping we get some breakthrough about her life post divorce in SA.
Can I suggest that it might be worthwhile too follow up Colleen Fitzpatrick’s comments that Dorothy was a “black widow”, and that her father disinherited her because of her lifestyle (or similar).
If I were not stuck down some rabbit holes in the Never-Never I would look for some sort of “black widow” crime that would be reported in the newspapers. Poisonings or attempted poisonings particularly because poison, or a suspicion of poison, is at the heart of TSM affair. Pharmacology (and toxicology) feature prominently in Jessie’s family and Dorothy appears to have some knowledge of pharmacy (and ether drinking). For me, this is all too much of a coincidence. I sometimes wonder if Jessie and Dorothy were known to each other.
Byron Deveson: I do recall suggesting the Dorothy ‘black widow’ scenario to you way back regarding odds of coincidence re her familial relationship with Dr. John Bennett to which I received no response. Perhaps at that time you were “stuck down some rabit holes in the never never”.
@All Photographs of three more family members from Peter Davidson on his GENI https://www.geni.com/people/Geoffrey-Lockyer/6000000188771446825
Ada Locker’s former hubby matches himself with facial ID
Obviously facial ID doubters won’t believe this.
https://imgur.com/gallery/nLBpEjX
Deveson is, as usual, spot on.
Jessica lured SM to Somerton with the promise of return of certain chattels passed on to her by her friend, Dorothy. On his arrival he was offered victuals which Jessica had poisoned. Both women regarded the plan as foolproof since cousin Comber Robertson would remain on hand to smooth any wrinkles in the story.
Behrooz can use AI to generate any Tommy rot he desires; it won’t help.
@ John Sanders, thanks. That has been my sense also, for all practical purposes, even though I can see a difference between David Morgan trying to take a more independent approach to Abbott’s actions rather than taking his words as a gospel of truth.
@ David Morgan,
Someone offers a proposal, with details. In order to lay it aside, you have to engage with its specifics to challenge it in order to refute it, to make way for your or other alternatives.
To do so, you have to either learn the language transliteration protocols yourself, which is actually not that difficult (TSM did it, FitzGerald actually did it, and even Gerald Feltus has two examples of it in his book), or consult someone who does, and even they should offer a reasonable refutation of the proposals made. But you actually did consult, perhaps the best that can be in a general sense by someone not familiar with Arabic transliteration such as yourself, that is, by consulting AI sources. But you CHOSE to ignore even the AI’s confirmations.
My proposal has been around, in detail since Oct. 2021. I will be perfectly happy with even one single, reasoned, and verifiable refutation of it. I am not talking about just one detail here or there (even in the proposal, I discussed various interpretations for a letter being a D or P, for both of which I have accounted for, and that even a decoded, or uncoded, poem, calls for various interpretations, but the skeleton of TSM code I showed was a transliteration from Arabic, with TSM following the example of Tamam Shud, actually a very simple idea that has been ignored since 1948). But the overall way I consistently accounted for all the letters—with specific details and explanations, ones that were verified as an illustration by the very same AI I learned about from YOU, in this case ChatGPT, and then you YOURSELF peer reviewed it with your OWN AI engine preference (Claude.ai), generally confirming that indeed the letters can be decoded consistently as an Arabic transliteration—you chose to simply ignore.
In your case, you highly use and depend on AI to do this and that, and claim it to be at least reliable for your kind of projects. You present yourself as the champion of AI science, be it in Face Recognition or coding, etc. Yet, when it comes to your own AI confirmed plausible results confirming my deciphering, you simply ignored it.
This logically gives me a clear indication that you are NOT genuine, nor sincere, about actually trying to even refute a proposal besides proposing yours that have not even resulted in anything worthwhile. TSM did not put a Shakespearian “The End” in his fob pocket, nor a German “Das Ende”. He put a “Tamam Shud” there, a Persian expression using Arabic alphabets. There are many reasons he did it, a very important one of which I have not revealed on this site yet, because it will be ignored as usual (besides the fact that others have not cared much about what I have to say anyways), but will do so in due course, since it is a part of a whole interpretative narrative.
But the point is, this Australian-German English (perhaps even fluently German speaking) Carl Webb (if TSM) included a PERSIAN expression (which includes an Arabic word, Tamam, which is used in Persian as well, but all using Arabic alphabet). You do not have to be an AI, or a super duper AI user, to consider it plausible that act indicates a reason linking him to the Rubaiyat, and Persian/Arabic. For a decoder, that should serve as more of a plausible lead than to a German.
But, aside from the dubious “strong” face recognition strategies (with all those negatives and rough sketches used, some even refuted and red-crossed on your own evidence’s example) and Roy being Carl Webb wild conspiracy proposals you push as scientific guesses on CM instead, and other things you do in this site, other than other contributions you have made that I have acknowledged in terms of questioning other assumptions about the mask hair issue, you have chosen purposely to disregard such AI confirmed, even at least provisionally, AI peer reviews, confirmation that you YOURSELF made, even without my asking. I should naturally be expecting more from YOU, the AI championing contributor on this site, in contrast to others, but you ignored it, and now insultingly suggest I proposed that decoding because I happen to be a native Persian speaker!
I will be perfectly happy with your taking a verifiable refutation of my proposal seriously (since, of course I will expect a reasonable and verifiable refutation from you or anyone), but you simply ignored it and are proposing alternatives that even then does not lead to an actual deciphering of what even your “German” solution offers as a meaning.
Any one can claim something to be a code, a Germanic cipher or a microcode and say it is a code forever, but what is the code supposed to mean, after all the deciphering? And your answer is, it is a work in progress. Then, why not wait until you reach its end than take our time and claim breakthroughs, showing off your AI prowess while ignoring AI peer reviews that you yourself confirmed, since it does not fit your wild narratives.
You have pursued, knowingly or not, intentionally or not, a strategy of ignoring a proposal with specific details and content. And now you further insult me by suggesting that the reason I proposed my solution is that I happen to be a Persian speaker!
JS, sorry but the WiFi connection in the Never-Never is terrible and I didn’t see your post. The connection is even worse in a rabbit burrow.
I do agree with your point.
Other places to look for Dorothy are admissions to mental hospitals and sectioning orders. Also the unclaimed money lists that were (are?) published each year.
@Byron Deveson
Of course, the logical answer might be Dorothy was dead before her father so he wouldn’t leave her money. Personally, I think she made up the sad story of her father outside in his car at the Bromby apartment. A man who drives 1000s of km to sort out the hubby beating his daughter up isn’t going to sit in his car. A man who is using his muscles every day to build runways. If he was going to get Carl he would bring the 20st guy with him.
It could be he liked Carl and Carl joined his road gang building runways. It would explain Carl’s sudden increase in body mass from the skinny kid. JC and Carl were both about 12st which was probably quite big for WW2. Shortly after that time my dad was about 10st and he was working every day with land army girls in Pembrokeshire and went from skinny kid to muscular 20-year-old. So Carl seems to have been doing harder work than a farmer – like runway building.
My wife’s dad physically transformed in the same way at the end of WW2 building runways in Frankfurt and he went from a skinny starved slave worker teen to one of the toughest guys you would likely ever meet in your life. A Charles Bronson of a guy.
So I suspect Carl may have been building runways with Dorothy’s dad 1946 to 1947. Who else did he know who did that type of muscle-building physical work?
@DM: picked up on your deliberate mistakes ie., Locker and Wikins [both sic] right away. What the dickens you be up to now Dave.
Curio: you might start looking for a new line of work Mitch, the Charlie show is history as be his seconded band of FB dolls. SM’s real Identity is but a forgone conclusion, loose ends & formalities to be confirmed when Sapol get around to seeking my help before the press get wise….Nice pic of Geoff Lokyer & his mum.
@JS
Just typos. a simple answer. Sometimes I am typing in a darkened room and I rely on the light of the screen, I try not to disturb family members with my nocturnal habits.
I also said former when it was latter. You didn’t notice. I just wanted to check who was who – visually. I was hoping to find Maggs the barmaid but after the divorces she disappears.
I always check the faces with Pimeyes and NAA just in case they can be found in other places. I don’t want the Roy 2 situation where a face can be expunged from the net and the identity lost forever.
@Behrooz,
As I said correlation doesn’t mean cause and effect. For example, even the Index of Coincidence is full of holes and I even gave people the means to show it with the Python code to test other text.
I can see Carl as a wannabe intellectual possibly even autistic but where did he get his Persian studies education at Swinburn technical college? In fact, it fits better with Rudolf Mons who was last seen crashing in Algeria if the code was Persian text transposed.
Oxford/London?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46158416?searchTerm=%22persian%20studies%22
Of course, it could be the RoK in the car had nothing to do with Carl. Just like the nurse Jessie may have had nothing to do with Carl yet she gave away a RoK. Perhaps Jessie gave away a RoK to a chemist as it had her number on it.
It highlights how all these facts are coincidences.
@John Sanders You don’t know my work: I might have an ASIO file on CW that has the reason why SAPOL gave their misleading recent finding. Don’t call me working class when SteveH says you are really from Hong Kong.
@John Sanders
Webb family from UK have wedding photographs of Carl Webb and Dorothy Jean Robertson.
Helen Dangerfield is a Webb relative who claimed photographs of Carl and Doff were with relatives in the UK from soon after Carl Webb was identified as being The Somerton Man.
If you paid for an Ancestry membership contacted Helen then you would know.
@RB
Why has she not made a statement?
https://imgur.com/gallery/K81Sf6b
To confirm she believes SM = CW.
@David Morgan
Her first statement was as “Dunnard” not Dangerfield. Women marry and use both names.
@ Rusty – if you are in contact with Helen Dangerfield or are able to send her a message perhaps you’d like to let her know about the debutante photograph found by Poppins and the research on the other debs undertaken by Pat? It would make sense for Doris Martin’s descendants to have a wedding photograph as Doris was the Webb family witnesses to Carl and Dorothy’s wedding.
Rusty Bertha
No need for me to contact HD even if I had the means. It would serve no purpose to see wedding pics now that the Carl Webb SM hoax has been exposed by Safcol.
Someone might like to check the ASIO file relating to the Glenelg Branch of the Australian Communist Party in the 1940s that is in the Australian Archives. You might also want to check the file concerning the listening post a few hundred metres from Jessie’s house.
I think that Jessie’s life-long interest in pharmacology (information from a family member a few years ago) coupled with Jessie’s uncle being an expert witness in pharmacological and toxicological matters is a bit too much to ignore. Toxicologists are still a rare animal, and would have been even rarer in the 1940s. After all, a the very centre of TSM case is an unexplained poisoning with an unknown drug.
Hello Rusty,
It’s seems unlikely to me that there was a wedding to take wedding photos of. If you view the wedding certificate, lower down on the left hand side you will see that the certificate was issued “by licence” which means that not all (or even any) of the parties needed to be in attendance.
If Charlie and Doff were there together, even in the vestry office, they would have been wed by banns or rites, not licence.
The only one we know was there was Rev Montgomerie, and looking at the “D” I think Doff. To make up the whole list I could add JCR but Charlie wasn’t at his own wedding so a joint photo would be unlikely,
@RB
Not available on websites. Unless an error in the spelling of Dunnard.
It is a curious case of explicit absence of interest in their own relatives if they are infamous. It seems to be a global standard from my experience. Imagine you had a picture of your dad with Einstein you’d probably send it to a newspaper. Strange how the Somerton Man has an odd effect on Australians. Like some family dirty secret a bit like Dorothy getting married perhaps to a man who wasn’t even there.
@AH,
Where is your evidence anyone has ever got married by post? Marriage by licence means you get married in a registry office, They also require 2 witnesses. I know because I got married that way. In fact a church wedding required the 2nd part to take place for it to be legal in the 1940s. Now people get married in a hotel so I think the rules may have changed a little.
There seems to be a myth circulating that SAPOL have put out a notice to say they don’t believe CW is SM. It is strange no-one posted the link for us to read.
I have asked the courts myself.
Smoke and Mirrors, Hypotheticals and Hypodontia!
Here is the HQ (Headquarters) for the Somerton Man activities in the late 1940’s.
https://i.imgur.com/IlhohK8.jpg https://i.imgur.com/DNVivsY.jpg
It was the Bakery owned and operated by the Starr Family of Barraba in North-Central New South Wales.
Here is a photo showing the Starr Family at the time. (Smile for the camera).
https://i.imgur.com/4tO1Ts0.jpg
The woman second from right holding the cigarette packet is Dorothy Jean Starr. Dorothy was born on Sept 6th 1915 in Barraba. Her family were long time residents even before the 1940s.
Here is a closer look at Dorothy.
https://i.imgur.com/g9OUltv.jpg
On 14th April 1934 she marries Edward Thomas Archibald Freeman and they have four children although Raymond passes soon after birth. The others are Robert, Carolyn and Ronald.
https://i.imgur.com/gSYYGJZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/81HWO1Q.jpg
With Teddy, Dorothy takes over the ownership of the Bakery. However, once the kids are growing Teddy leaves and lives in several Sydney suburbs. He dies on 20th Jan 1973. His headstone doesn’t mention Dorothy.
https://i.imgur.com/JYaYsca.jpg
Once Teddy leaves the family, Dorothy drops the Dorothy and becomes known as Jean Freeman.
Jean Freeman seems to meet up with fellow Barraba traveller/locksmith William Edward Luck Junior and they travel to York in WA.
Jean lists her address on Robert’s Attestation Form as Box 77, P.O., York, WA.
Thanks to Mitch Whalmi’s photo of what was/is believed to be Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer and Ada Theresa Wilkins https://i.imgur.com/IVv74A5.jpg ,I provide a line-up for your consideration and comments.
https://i.imgur.com/RpELCjS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/25KGW1C.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Gwyuxav.jpg https://i.imgur.com/g9OUltv.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FFPuH6J.jpg
When Teddy Freeman hangs up his boots in 1973, Jean Freeman and Bill Luck do the official thing and are married straight away (1973) and move back to Barraba.
Bill Luck Senior is a Pastrycook.
William Edward Luck Jnr is buried with Jean Freeman in Barraba Cemetery. Jean dies on 28th Dec 1989 and Bill dies 12th May 1996, after gracing the world with 3 kids.
https://i.imgur.com/V2bSTsd.jpg
As a side issue, about the time of the kerfuffle in Somerton, John Comber Robertson takes a sabbatical to Wallaby Creek which is north of Barraba.
In 1950 William Earl Sutherland arrives by Pan American and upon stepping off the plane, asks how he can get to Wallaby Creek.
https://i.imgur.com/52rlfAM.jpg
Bill Sutherland is the Electrical Engineer aboard the S S Pioneer Glen in 1947 when a theft of Opal is reported from Prince’s Pier in Melbourne whilst the Pioneer Glen is berthed there. A suitcase containing Opal remnants is recovered from the water on Port Phillip Bay near Point Lonsdale after the Pioneer Glen passes on its exit from Melbourne.
Bill Sutherland’s return is as a rich entrepreneur looking to spend significant cash, a lot different to the cash strapped state he left in during 1947.
Is Jean the second and corrected version of Dorothy Jean Robertson after the original Doff disappears?
Alan H.,
Your group pic with Dorothy Starr be telling. The cig pack in her hand looks just like my old iPhone. Guess that’s the magic of Imgur.
Late entry for the Lorne family for Dorothy to spend time with…
I noticed Vera Thornley lived in Lorne whereas her brother Pat ended more down market at 35 Thorn St, Barwon Heads as an elderly guy.
From Gnotuk to Barwon Heads with all that exotic life in-between. The locals in Barwon Heads would never know the old guy had been around all those posh weddings, parties in the Dorchester, tennis, family owning land and race horses and trips to the USA yet he ends up asking for his military pension to live on.
Something broke the family and property up – possibly Judith and Rob Manifold. I noticed he avoided events with Vera and Judith when Manifold was around, Perhaps he thought she was a traitor in the Wiridgil camp.
I can think of worse holes than Barwon Heads for a retired grazier to put up a beach shanty. Don’t forget Aussie icon Bazza McKenzie hailed from there; Also Cadel Evans of Tour de Frog fame’s got a beach villa with his own scenic ocean road replica TdF track along the quay that’d put Judyith’s Domain Rd. Carn Brae mansion garden pathways to shame.
@ RichardD,
Regarding Geoff’s death notices…
Alfie is his son Alfred Geoffrey Wilkins, born in 1942, died 10 Sep 1996 (according to his death memorial on Findagrave). He married Sandra Dorothy Berryman in 1964 in Perth (N. 1654).
Val is his daughter Valma Joyce Wilkins, born c. 1944, married to Ian Eadsforth Foster in 1963 in Perth (N. 2591).
Ian is Val’s husband.
They were very young when Ada caught Geoff and Iris Maggs ‘in flagrante delicto’ (1945).
Ada probably changed their surnames after marrying Michael (Percival) Henry Wilkins in 1947 in Perth (N. 1517).
Maybe Sandra Dorothy and Valma Joyce are still around.
@JS,
The point is in the timescale of WW2 they lost a fortune and two Aussie stately homes. They used to spend £1000 on a horse in the 1930s – no problem. Like £80,000 today. The present family lineage have no idea of their glorious past. Whereas good old Wensley Waight was on the rise in his 60s from Potts Point to Walberswick and the cricket committee for the great and good. His name listed alongside some of the greats of English history on the Walberswick cricket committee. I suspect that was his idea to have a cricket season fixture list printed. He did promo for the Royal Blind society.
@Pat,
I guess you read this
https://2nd4thmgb.com.au/soldier/wx17604/
Some news re Val’s husband Ian E. Foster (1936-2010) who’s wife was Rini when he passed according his FAG neglected covered plaque at Pinnaroo Valley cemetery What a shame it could have blown the Dorothy Jean Webb/Lockyer nee Robertson whereabouts case wide open.
@ David Morgan
Yes, but I have more accurate information. For example, Valma Joyce wasn’t born in 1948 as they say in this website, otherwise she would have been 15 years old when she married Ian in 1963. That’s why I think she was Geoff’s daughter, born c. 1944, when Michael (aka Percival) Henry Wilkins was serving in Singapore.
That said, it’s also possible that the “Ian” mentioned in Geoff’s death notice was his son and not his son-in-law, otherwise his daughter-in-law Sandra Dorothy would have been mentioned?
She was born in England in 1944 and arrived in Australia as a child with her parents and twin brothers, Martin Thomas and Russell. Unfortunately Martin died very young, aged 4, in 1954. I have sent a message on FamilySearch to Russell, no reply yet.
Alfred Geoffrey Wilkins’ headstone says his wife was “Wendy”. A nickname or another case of multiple marriages?
Alfred Geoffrey and and Sandra Dorothy were designers/builders, and have been mentioned a number of times in newspapers/gazettes regarding “Alf Wilkins Pty Ltd”.
They built the house for cricket legend Dennis Lillie at 7 Tone Place, Karrinyup WA, but went bankrupt in the early 1980s.
Alf’s daughter, Simone Wilkins, is a marketing expert in construction in Perth. She has posted an old newspaper article about her father on Linkedin.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/simone-wilkins-9051246_business-marketing-construction-activity-7082002665517289472-vmRZ
She might remember something that her dad told her about grandpa Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer.
Rini could be a nickname or Ian Eadsforth could have married again.
There’s a Linkedin profile of Rini Foster, F & B Attnd at Qantas Club, Greater Perth Area, without any further information, probably retired.
The bottom line is there are a number of living people that are connected to Geoff and could have information about Doff.
misca: so you seem to have settled the under age marriage problem with Val and Ian, but where does that leave ‘Rini’ Foster in the current state of play, who is she and what ever became of the Somerton Man case, if’n I may be so bold as to ask?
@pat,
It is a curious thing in families post-war they decided to reinvent themselves by simply changing their name. Often just taking their 2nd name. It was like they were killing their old self/past.
I have seen it repeatedly in my own family. A lot of Jewish people as well. It just makes it hard to trace people now. Like Carl Charles Webb/Weber.
Bugger me (metaphrically), why all the fuss and bother about Alf who by the way was in Japan in ’44 and not Singapore. To make matters worse Pte. Wilkins could have nothing to do with Jerry Somerton’s death in ’48, by which he was happily back from the war and ensconced in Perth with Ida with her billy lids of Lockyer derivation. For what little it’s worth and I’m not sure by any stretch, at the time of Ian Foster’s demise, he was partnered with Rini; so going by that scantish lead I’ve located an Italian born couple Pietro and Maria Canestrini whose daughter Mary born c. ’32 married a bloke Foster. So that’s as good as it gets folks but end of the day Valma Joyce still remains a mystery.
Did I say Alf was our POW in Japan. Sorry meant his dad Mike; too many Wilkins in this game and not a one of any consequence far as the SM case standings are concerned.
DM: not only did young Percy Wilkins change his name to Michael but, he also altered his year of birth to 1923 if we go by IJA’s own POW records and ratified elswhere. Don’t know what was on his mind when he inlisted aged 18 in 1941.
@JS,
Where did Lockyer get the money to buy out the hydraulic firm in Bute?
He had from 1943 to 194x/5x to accumulate enough money to buy a business.
He was asking for his discharge certificate 27th November 1948 but he screwed up sending the form to the wrong address and they forwarded to Melbourne for him. It’s quite a coincidence in the SM timeline.
Why did he need it in December 1948 what was his urgency – he was only 30?
I had sent a correction that has not been posted… I meant to say Valma Joyce Wilkins was born c. 1944. Michael Henry was still a POW at Malaya camp in 1943, according to his military file.
Anyway, Rini Foster is probably Irene Foster, born 1943, died 2012, late of Currumbine, buried in the same cemetery as Ian Eadsforth (Pinnaroo Valley Memorial Park). I have requested a photo of her grave. Her date of birth is consistent with Valma Joyce’s. Third name, nickname, change of name, or another wife?
DM: You’ll have spotted another plaque besides Ian Foster’s covered with partly obscured under leaf fall so could indeed be that of his late wife Irene? or Rini as Misca confidently predicts.
I’m prepared to go half way with @Pat on where Mike was in ’44, Malaya or Japan. Even though there is no specific date recorded on his NAA army file nor the I J A card from Fukuoko (I kid you not) POW work camp Japan. Seems he had sailed there aboard the Aramis early June ’44 ex Singapore and remained until released in mid August of ’45. Just going back through Mike’s file I note dissent as to his birth year ie. ’20, ’23 and ’24, and also his death in 1971 from reliable Repat records or DECEASED 27/5/87 in a CARO file notation., so take your pick.
There be no known photo of Irene Foster’s grave in ‘Tuart’ interment grove of Pinaroo Valley cemetery according to park authorities. However it does seem
an inscribed flat rock or a polished metal plaque similar to Ian Foster’s would have been a feature at one time. In that these folks died only two years apart and Ian’s ashes be in a different location, I’m no so confident of them being man and wife or even related for that matter. I’ll stand corrected.
This website has become an absolute shit-show and not because of the webmaster. Can somebody please get these Somerton Shitheads off the page? There is nothing cipher related apart from a ‘code’ which was a piece of crap thrown into the mix to stir up trouble and who gives a flying fig what Edna Geoffrey Basketcase née Bullcrap was doing in WWI. Seriously, get a life, you idiots. Jestyn and DNA will take you where you want to go – not cryptography or ciphers. So get lost to your own webpage.
One thing, or rather four interesting things, about Geoff’s mother, Olive Lockyer nee Knapton, who became a widow in 1925, after Geoff’s dad Alfred Malcolm Brooks Lockyer died.
Misca had already pointed out that she had ‘married’ Edward Clement Francis in Adelaide c. 1926 and had at least two children with him (in Perth) – Patricia (1927-1967), and Lois Frances (1928- died 7 months old). Lois’s death record lists her as Lois Frances Knapton, mother Olive Knapton, father is not listed.
Someone has added a son named Barry D who died in 1952, on FamilySearch, but the info is not correct (Barry Donald Francis died aged 3, father Harold Donald Francis), although there is a Barry Francis who died in 1984, aged 52, interred at Karrakatta Cemetery, who could be the ‘right’ Barry, unknown father and mother. I’ve requested his grave’s photo.
Edward Clement Francis was still married to Violet Barnett (Lewisham, England – 1917), hence no record of his ‘marriage’ to Olive at Woodside, SA (only family history information, according to Peter Davidson).
Olive Francis married Thomas Thompson at Kalgoorlie in 1944. Olive Thompson married Thomas George Hutchins at Perth in 1948.
Olive Hutchins died in 1970 (interred on 7 July at Karrakatta Cemetery).
Death Record:
Surname Hutchins
Given Name Olive
Sex F
Age 71
Father Joseph KNAPTON
Mother UNKNOWN
Place of Death Como
Year of Death 1970
Reg District Perth
Reg # 102387
Reg Year 1970
Four husbands, and maybe more descendants who might have some information about Geoff, and potencially Doff.
@AT: I’ve already reported to misca having no luck with the Rini burial site, but nonetheless delighted to report success in locating Ian’s mum Doris’ grave at Karrakatta along with a recent photo. FAG will get you there @ Doris Foster nee Millett 1902/83…and hope it may prove useful in your quest for closure in the ongoing Ada Lockyer nee Wilkin’s mystery.
Misca: thanks for that overload of boring stuff and nonsence. Albeit meticulously researched as usual and nicely laid out too, including the all important registration numbers. Can’t figure what’s got into Long Time Shurker’s nickers. No harm done surely? party pooper!
Irene Foster (1943-2012) buried at Pinaroo Valley Memorial Park was the beloved wife of Vincent and devoted mother of Karen, Lynn, John and families. Not Ian Eadsforh’s ‘Rini’. The search for Valma Joyce Wilkins continues.
@ Long Time Lurker
Stop lurking and get a life yourself. Problem solved.
@ John Sanders,
I’m the person who has requested Doris Millet’s grave photo. No news about that.
And stop calling me Misca. I don’t know if Misca is still reading this blog, it’s a shame she/he is not posting any more. I still read Misca’s old comments and they are very helpful, unlike yours.
Correction: Patricia Horsman (nee Francis), Olive Knapton’s daughter, died in 1997, not 1967.
@At: can’t understand how FB misca could have missed the all important Doris Millet grave pic with flowers and all at Karrakatta, maybe she’s still searching records at Pinaroo Valle.
Some time ago, I read that after World War II, Australia was flooded w/ immigrants seeking refuge from war-torn homelands. Unemployment was high, and housing was hard to come by as hordes of new arrivals made competition for both jobs and housing intense. (Geoff Lockyer’s difficulty finding a place to live in the early ‘50s attests to the latter.) During the late ‘40s, it appears that employers began implementing a preference for hiring only those who had served in the military — perhaps as a way to cope w/ the high level of job applicants. Geoffs “urgent” request for his military records in Nov. ’48 suggests that he, and no doubt others, were desperate to prove they had served in the military when applying for a job and/or when trying to obtain housing. Charlie’s lack of military service could have hindered him then in both endeavors after he left the flat.
In order to try and address the heavy incursion of foreign nationals and the resulting scarcity of jobs, housing, and resources, the government appears to have begun to try to attempt to verify the citizenship and identities of residents in the country. Both the ’49 voter rolls, in which D’s address was corrected, as well as Tibor Kaldor’s assumed identity, which was discovered and resulted in his suicide, are evidence of this. Did C, who was on the run from an estranged wife who was seeking to make him pay maintenance, also attempt to use a forged ID in order to escape being found by D? Could the discovery of that fake ID have meant that C’s getting a job was now next-to-impossible?
C left Red Point hastily under less-than-noble circumstances and may have found himself unable or unwilling to use his former employer as a reference because he didn’t want D to learn of his whereabouts, and because he didn’t want his new employer to learn of his past suicide attempt or the reason for his hasty departure. He may have had at least 3 strikes against him then when attempting to get work after leaving the flat: 1) He wasn’t a veteran; 2) he felt he couldn’t use Red Point as a reference; 3) he may have attempted to use a false identity that was discovered.
In addition, he may also have lost the roof over his head. As others have suggested, it’s possible he was staying with the Keanes or even Gladys or Russell, and had to leave — either because the Keanes were moving to a new house (as their change of address in ’49 indicates) or because Russell (and perhaps Gladys also) had been newly-diagnosed w/ heart trouble and didn’t have long to live.
If Charlie lost the roof over his head and/or was unable to get work because of the reasons outlined above, then perhaps it doesn’t matter much that he may been depressed due to the loss of family members, was wrestling w/ homosexuality, or was despondent due to a failed marriage to D who may or may not have been an unsavory individual. Perhaps Dorothy’s character and personality are irrelevant if the reason C chose to end it was due to his inability to find work and/or shelter.
@AT,
Countries like the UK brought in migrants (e.g. Windrush) because bullets had killed a lot of young men. Though many women wanted to continue to work as they were during WW2 and didn’t want to go back to child-rearing and meal preparation for husbands.
Dorothy was unusual she had stopped working around 1943 yet continued her pre-war lifestyle – cinema etc. When I was reading about Diana (journalist Jonathan Swift’s fake wife) I instantly thought about Carl and Dorothy. He was moaning about her spending money on dresses. In his real life his wife Ena was volunteering to raise money for the Red Cross etc after she gave up her Post Office job. She had even written for the Sun News Pictorial in 1939.
Those divorce affidavits look like caricatures because you had to sway a judge to think your adversary was a bad person. Swift created a caricature wife in his newspaper articles.
Jonathan Swift (Jerry Waight) said his first wife Violet hated Australia in his divorce affidavit. If so why did she hang around Melbourne and not return to the UK? It may be she hated having her house flooded in Kerang and needing to have it rebuilt. Then she didn’t return having got used to a more exciting Melbourne lifestyle. It is also an irony that Jerry Waight also moved to Melbourne finding Kerang life too boring.
In other words Dorothy’s, Jerry Waights and Lockyer’s divorce affidavits were all works of fiction. It suited them at the time to say bad things about the other person for the sympathy of a judge.
Jerry Waight leaving Melbourne for Sydney is also a good parallel with Carl. His good reputation had been damaged by a court saying he was sending porn in the post and his Melbourne army enlistment failing. He moved to Sydney in 1942 to enlist again taking his poetry books with him.
Similarly, Dorothy had set up a picture of Carl with Red Point when he had to make maintenance payments to her. It may have been deducted from his wages. His good reputation damaged. You could imagine the chatter in the Red Point Tools offices about Carl. He too had to move away from Melbourne in 1946 taking his poetry books with him.
Charlie could easily have got work as a baker if he needed to pay his rent. His last pastie meal could have been one he made earlier laced with poison.
From those who had dealings with the man on a personal level, Geoff Lockyer was said to have been a whore monger at heart, and it might therefore be reasonable to assume that some of the women he took marriage vows with fitted the catagory. Lets see, there were three that we’re of, all of whom little or nothing be known re their upbringing or pre nuptual lives, first cab of the rank, Ada Jones, followed by Dorothy Webb and lastly Mary Humphrey, so far as we’re aware. Seems none of our prudish FB lasses have dared to suggest that our girl Dorothy might herself have been a whore either before, during her marriage of convenient to Carl and Geoff Lockyer. What do you say @AT, misca, don’t be afraid to say what you think.
One more possible half-brother for Geoff.
His mother Olive had a son with Thomas Thompson (unless he already had a son when he married her in 1944). Poor chap had his head blown off by dynamite.
The Daily News (Perth, WA : 1882 – 1955)
Sat 5 Oct 1946
Page 1
Found With Head Blown Off
KALGOORLIE, Sat— Missing
from his camp at the old Bootlace
mine at Burtville last weekend
Thomas Thompson was later
found with his head blown off.
Discovery was made by Consta
ble Anderson.
It was apparent that death had
been caused by a charge of dyna
mite.
Thompson was a returned sol
dier, well known in the district
and leaves a widow and one son.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/78268316
Kalgoorlie Miner (WA : 1895 – 1954)
Mon 12 May 1947
Page 1
Lancefield Sulphide Sands for Laboratory Tests
Mocking Bird Shares
An application by Michele Omedi
for three months’ exemption on
P.A. 1542F, at Linden, was adjourn
ed by Warden Smith to Kalgoorlie
to a date to be fixed.
In the last matter before the
court Warden Smith reserved his
decision. This was a plaint in
which Charles Henry Fletcher sued
Mrs. Olive Thompson, as personal
representative of the late Thomas
Thompson.
Fletcher asked to be put in pos
session of the 48 shares in the
Mocking Bird (G.M.L. 2480T), at
Burtville, registered in the late
Thomas Thompson’s name. The
ground for the plaint was non
representation of interest.
No defence was filed.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95529678
@JS,
If she was after money why didn’t Dorothy chase Carl for her maintenance payments? She could have had him locked up until he paid. In fact, he might not have died on the beach if she had him locked up for non-payment.
David Morgan,
Good point about the reasons for mass immigration after WWII, but I believe it was something Australia soon came to regret.
Interesting to read about Swift’s attitude toward his wife’s spending. Not unlike Carl’s, to be sure. Before the ‘60s, it appears such attitudes were the norm and not the exception.
Have been turning over the possibility that D may have been instructed by her lawyers to imply that C was crazy in order to get the judge to grant her request for a divorce. Her motivation for seeking one was great indeed, as she was pregnant, unmarried, and had a prospective groom in the wings. If the divorce was granted before her child was born, it would mean the baby wouldn’t be born illegitimately. In her affidavit, D says it was Charlie who abandoned her, but technically, it was she who left the flat first. Did her lawyers point this out to her and tell her the divorce request might be denied unless she could prove she had a good reason for leaving the flat? If C was deemed crazy and a threat to her life, it would solve the problem of her having left the flat first. If D was less-than-honest in her affidavit in order to obtain the divorce she was seeking so that her unborn child would be born legitimately, then it would help solve the conundrum I’ve been wrestling with of how Charlie could be gainfully employed at Red Point for least 7 years while also suffering from a psychotic disorder. It would mean he didn’t have such a disorder and that that idea was manufactured in order to ensure that D obtained the divorce she so desperately needed. No way to know if this is what occurred, but worth considering perhaps.
Geoff’s children?
Ada Teresa Jones (born c. 1924-1925) was 16 when she married Geoff in 1941.
Jones Ada Teresa Female Lockyer Geoffrey Arthur Male Fremantle 1941 Fremantle 2700334 1941
They divorced in 1945 and she married Michael (Percival) Henry Wilkins in 1947.
Lockyer Ada Teresa Female Wilkins Michael Henry Male Perth 1947 Perth 101517 1947
Lockyer Ada Teresa Female Wilkins Percival Henry Male Perth 1947 Perth 101517 1947
Ada Teresa Wilkins died in 2006, aged 82 (Western Australia Metropolitan Cemeteries Board).
First Name ADA TERESA
Last Name WILKINS
PINNAROO VALLEY MEMORIAL PARK Cremation
Aged Years 82 Date of Death 02/03/2006
Suburb HIGHGATE
https://portal.mcb.wa.gov.au/name-search/ns-detail/?id=f592a99d-c61c-ec11-b6e7-00224814c3d1
Michael Henry was a plasterer living at Bourke-st, Victoria Park in Oct 1954.
The Daily News (Perth, WA : 1882 – 1955)
Sat 9 Oct 1954
Page 2
Trouble After 20 Beers
A MAN said by police to
have caused a three-car
accident in Adelaide-ter. last
night, later admitted hav-
ing drunk 20 beers.
In Perth Police Court to
day the man, plasterer
Michael Henry Wilkins (30),
of Bourke-st., Victoria Park,
admitted a charge of drunk
driving and was fined £50.
Wilkins’ driver’s licence
was suspended for three
months.
(Before Mr. A. G. Smith, SM.)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266259107
If this Ada Wilkins is her, she had 5 children on 6 April 1952.
Sunday Times (Perth, WA : 1902 – 1954)
Sun 6 Apr 1952
Page 4
AT 25 SHE’S HAD HER EIGHTH BABY
(….)
Married at 16, Mrs. Ada
Wilkins, 26, of Kensington,
has 4 boys and a girl. They
are 10, 9, 8, 4 years and 10
days.
Although she has had
poor health since her first
child was born, she has
never had any help in run-
ning her home. Her hus-
band is a plasterer, and
strict planning is needed
to keep the family. Mrs.
Wilkins makes all the
clothes and is adept at re-
making old ones so that
they can be “handed down
to the next one in turn.”
Baby bonus of £17/10/
will go towards paying her
doctor’s fee because she
“doesn’t like having bills.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59548625
This is not related to Dorothy, but I will keep posting here for the sake of my sanity.
One of the last members of the Gavey family who could have met Brenda Webb has recently died (13 Aug 2024).
Here’s a video of her funeral and a detailed description of her life.
Joyce Bell (nee Le Suer/ Gavey).
https://www.owenmohan.com.au/livestream/client
Pat,
Hope you’ll stay and keep posting. This blog isn’t the same w/out your much-valued input!
Now that Charles Webb’s SM identification has been discredited on the basis of flawed gene input data to obtain confirmation, follows that Dorothy’s part in the deception be deemed irrelevant. Should Pat seek atonement for the disruption and chaos created by her posts & links at behest of team Facebook’s “Identifying Somerton Man” hoax, such conduct might be downgraded to that of ‘disturbing element’ status.
On yer bike?
**Other Cycling Results:**
1930. Could be Roy?
* **Fitzroy Amateurs 13-Mile Handicap (Campbellfield):** D. Hodgson (scratch) won, followed by G. Mitchell (4min). C. Martin (scratch) finished third. Webb (scratch) recorded a time of 1hr 40min.
DM: Might be on the money there with Roy mugger. After all we know brother Charles Webb rode for Essendon in the thirties, that’s according to your FB post.
Could the reason Charlie sold his car in Feb. ’42 have been because petrol was being rationed? According to the article in the link below, “fuel rationing caused Australians to change their methods of transport” after the war began. Maybe Charlie was trying to do his part for the war effort by conserving the commodity and selling his snazzy wheels, or perhaps it had just become too costly to obtain. A farmer in Bendigo, e.g., had to resort to a more cumbersome way of getting his milk to market and this housewife in Elwood, which was next door to Elsternwick where D lived after the war, was snapped bicycling to get her groceries:
https://imgur.com/a/KIDPG8R
Maybe it was a blessing Charlie’s father sold the bakery when he did, as deliveries of his goods would have become difficult or impossible after the war began.
@AT: What happened to your dairy farmer in Bendigo, seems to have lost his way to the milk market. As for old Dick Webb, Charlie’s father, he was smart enough to have passed on before war rationing, not withstanding that had he lived he had a ‘orse’n cart for his under weight loaf deliveries.
Forgot to mention Viv Cooper of the Morris 8/40 car club in 1937 (run on the smell of an oily rag), lived just three blocks south of 63 Bromby St. at 505 St. Kilda Road post discharge from service in ’46. Probably known to both Carl & Doff, he being a dental mechanic, and his cheese a bar waitress in a local pub who had just aquired a race horse from memory.
AT: Didn’t realise we were still on about Carl’s mean little ’37 Morris 8/40 ‘roadster’ (almost a toy), basic model of which went for 120 nicker from Ruskin Motor works; Did you know that their extensive upholstery plant was located in ‘Little Lon’ just across the Yarra mud puddle from Bromby St. With that in mind it wouldn’t be any surprise to discover that cheap Charlie had employment there from, say the mid thirties to when Ruskins scaled the assembly plant at the outbreak of hostilities.
@AT in the story of the Pyjama Girl (in which Leo Keane took a massive interest to compose a song about it) – Dr Palmer Benbow was criticised because he was getting petrol coupons to work with the police. I believe he had a large engined (4 litres?) US vehicle.
So yes people seeing young Carl leaving home with his tennis rackets in a roadster might be sending the wrong message. Enough to stir up a lynch mob if they thought he was having it easy during rationing while their sons were dying.
I belive it likely Keane and Charlie were working together on cars. Leo was nicking them for joy rides. Roy was in with the crimbo Gavey so it would be easy to see some sort of car theft scheme in play. Little Leo was taking a joy ride if caught. Fine paid.
@JS
searching trove
**Motor Body Panels**
The ongoing tariff debate on motor body panels seems focused solely on General Motors-Holden’s Woodville factory, potentially misleading the public into believing they are Australia’s only body builders. While theirs is the largest, their output primarily serves their own cars. Ford also has a large factory in Geelong dedicated to Ford bodies. These companies control about 60% of vehicle sales, leaving 40% for other importers. T. J. Richards and Sons (Adelaide) and Ruskin Motor Body Works (Melbourne) share over two-thirds of this remaining market, with General Motors-Holden holding less than one-third. This demonstrates a lack of monopoly and highlights the significant role of our plants, deserving government consideration. — T. J. RICHARDS & SONS LIMITED (Claude A. Richards, Managing Director); RUSKIN MOTOR BODIES PTY. LTD. (Percy L. Strong, Chairman of Directors)
from:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204286036?searchTerm=%22percy%20l.%20strong%22
JS,
I should watch my words more. Yes, Webb Sr. died before the war began. I only meant to say I thought he was well out of it in light of the petrol rationing which caused such upheaval.
————-
DM,
Your image of Charlie “leaving home w/ his tennis rackets in a roadster” is a joyful one. Makes me smile knowing he had happy times!
@At,
My interest in Sidney Roy Mitting as Carl Webb’s doppelganger has renewed interest in Sidney by his descendents. They might do some research on their grandad/great uncle. I’d be interested to see photos of him as an older man after 1948…just to prove he wasn’t the SM.
Perhaps mysteries are created by doppelgangers. The recent Lord Lucan doppelganger programme on the BBC shows that people may have been seeing him all over the World not the real LL.
Good luck to you, David. I choose to believe that Carl is/was the SM and that DNA doesn’t lie. Colleen Fitzpatrick, IMHO, deserves tremendous credit for getting it right.
@AT: best of British to you too. Sounds like you’re real Keane on Colleen. You could be her real life doppelganger in theoretically, or else Ms. C. Fitzpatrick in the flesh. Just a flash in the pan feeling I get every time I read back through your engaging AT letters from America.
JS,
Am not Colleen, but thank you for briefly comparing me w/ her. She’s one smart cookie, having graduated w/ a Master’s in physics, and has solved many a cold case here in the US. Hope one day she’ll be allowed to tackle the Isdal Woman case as well.
@AT,
Colleen screwed up by telling the truth on the Mind Over Murder podcast. Perhaps one sherry too many. I wrote to her about it but she doubled down on the Abbott version of truth. She said it was nitpicking. But she said the hair DIDN’T COME FROM THE PLASTER CAST which was my view.
So 3 lies. 1) the mtDNA came from the hair in the paster cast. 2). they grew DNA from it. 3). the mtDNA inheritance line from Carl’s aunt matches Carl.
Everyone knows you don’t get mt/DNA from a 70 year old plaster bust. She admitted it on MoM. You also can’t grow Carl’s DNA from his hair (mtDNA).
“Mitochondrial DNA is a unique, circular DNA molecule that exists separately from nuclear DNA, found within the mitochondria organelles of cells. It’s notable because it represents a second genome distinct from the nuclear DNA.”
I also agree Carl is the SM. Simply because of facial ID. I said I was looking at Sidney as Carl’s doppelganger. I am curious about such a coincidence. Perhaps nature creates spares for Somerton mysteries. What are the chance of two almost identical people studying at the same place and becoming engineers and playing football? Both avoiding the war, both having very low profiles other than sport and getting a job. I am interested in Sidney as Sidney.
@AT I also researched Jerry Waight (as “Jonathan Swift” – gossip columnist) as a potential Carl Webb. But it turned out he had a much more fascinating life than most people on the planet. I will likely never figure out his younger life.
DM: want to find a true to life doppleganger for Somerton Man, then look no further than Tbt’s photo of SA coronor ‘Frank’ Wittle, he’s a dead spit, no joke. Wonder if SM could be his dad? Let Gemini in on my take and ask the question.
@AT: yes I’ve read through the long list of cases in which Colleen is said to have assisted US law inforcement agencies with their cold case closures and it is indeed impressive. As for the Isdal Woman, I think you’ll find that DM has that case well and truly done and dusted, so too Australia’s celebrated Pyjama girl murder and, mind you, without input of police or international criminalist entities, Dr. Palmer Benbow being the one exception.