On the morning of 1st December 1948, an unidentified man was found dead on Somerton Beach just south of Adelaide: he is usually referred to as “The Somerton Man” or sometimes “The Unknown Man”.
Six weeks later, a suitcase apparently containing the same man’s property was retrieved from Adelaide Railway Station’s cloakroom, where it had been deposited at around 11am the day before his death. However, apart from three items marked “Kean”, “Keane”, and “T. Keane” (nobody with that name was missing), nothing indicating the man’s identity was found in those belongings.
Tucked into a tiny fob pocket in the dead man’s trousers was a small scrap of printed paper ripped out of a book: mysteriously, it contained the Persian phrase Tamam Shud (i.e. “It Is Ended”, or “The End”).
This was quickly recognized as being the final words of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, quite a popular book at the time. And then some months later, a particular copy of the Rubaiyat surfaced with part of the final “Tamam Shud” page removed: it was claimed that the book had been thrown into a car parked near the same beach where the man had been found.
The Writing
At this point, the mystery of the case was compounded by the discovery of some faint writing on the rear page of the book. This included a local phone number (“X3239”), and several lines of cipher-like writing. Careful analysis of this suggests that it is more likely to be an ‘acrostic’ (i.e. the first letters of a text or poem, possibly as a mnemonic aid for remembering it) than a cipher, because its letter frequencies are more similar to the letter frequencies of the first letters of English words than to those of normal English text.
The phone number X3239 turned out to be that of a nurse called Jessica Ellen Thomson (née Harkness) living at 90A Glenelg Street, not far from the same beach. When quizzed by the police at the time, she said that she did not know who the deceased was. All the same, when she was later shown the plaster cast bust of the dead man, she was “Completely taken aback, to the point of giving the appearance that she was about to faint” (Feltus, p.178), giving rise to a strong suspicion that she knew more than she was letting on.
She did tell police that she had independently given a copy of the Rubaiyat to a man called Alfred Boxall, who she had met at the Clifton Gardens Hotel in Sydney in 1944 while she was training to be a nurse at the nearby Royal North Shore Hospital. However, Boxall quickly proved to be very much alive and living in Maroubra (and not the dead man found on the beach), leaving both him and the police somewhat baffled.
Just Jestyn?
Up until Thomson’s death in 2005, this was as much as anyone knew. However, in a 2013 interview for the Australian “60 Minutes” current affairs TV programme, her daughter Kate revealed that her mother had told her that she indeed did know more about the Somerton Man, but had deliberately not revealed it to police. She also revealed that her mother was able to speak Russian; suggested that her mother may have been involved in some spy-related activity; and that her mother thought that the whole Somerton Man affair was above “a State Police level”. This has, of course, unleashed a torrent of speculation, though with not a shred of external evidence to back any of it up.
Also: one unusual feature of Boxall’s copy of the Rubaiyat is that the nurse had apparently signed it “Jestyn”, though her name at the time was actually Jessica Ellen Harkness. By way of resolution, Kate recently commented that:
When nursing, all the other nursing pals in her year called her tina because she was only 4ft 11inch and slim. Xmas cards sent to her in her later years from her nursing pals either said dear tina or dear tyna. Seen it as they were put on display at home. mum said its an easy explanation put jess together with tyna and u have Jestyn.
Gerry Feltus confirmed that when many years ago he talked to various RNSH nurses who knew Jessie Harkness, they also said that she “sometimes referred to herself as Tina“. However, getting from there to “Jestyn” still seems something of a stretch (if not an outright leap): so perhaps there may yet be more to be uncovered here.
The Sealed Room
In many ways, the whole Tamam Shud case is a perfect murder mystery (‘murder’ insofar as the coroner suspected poisoning but was not able to prove it), to the point that there’s no way of knowing whether a murder actually took place (many people propose suicide as an explanation for many features of the mystery), who the victim was, what the murder weapon was (if indeed it was a murder), or who the perpetrator was.
Yet a curious feature is that despite having been found with his head propped up against the sea wall, the dead man’s body had extensive lividity (blood pooling) at the back of the head, suggesting that his body had spent some considerable time after dying with the head in a quite different position (i.e. lying on its back face up, yet with the head slightly below the rest of the body). Oddly, there was a half-smoked cigarette in his mouth on the beach, which (when taken together with the lividity) would strongly suggest that the corpse had been actively posed by person or persons unknown. This combination of facts would seem to rule out suicide.
Even so, useful and actionable facts about the case remain painfully few, very far between, and continue to be difficult to connect with each other. It’s true that if we could identify the man himself, we might possibly gain enough context to understand his cipher: but based on the evidence we currently have, I think the odds would seem to be strongly against either mystery being resolved any time soon.
…but we shall see!
Resources
* ABC Inside Story documentary, episode “The Somerton Beach Mystery”, first screened Thursday, August 24th, 1978: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3, all on YouTube. Highly recommended!
* Professor Derek Abbott’s primary evidence page (includes scans of the inquest reports, etc).
* Professor Derek Abbot’s secondary evidence page (includes newspaper reports, transcripts of a 2009 ABC Stateline TV documentary, etc).
Finally: the best book on the whole Tamam Shud mystery is without much doubt Gerry Feltus’ detailed (2010) The Unknown Man. If you want to know more – OK: much, much more – about the Somerton Man, this is surely the first thing you should buy for yourself. It’s a little bit pricey (mainly because of Australian book taxes), true, but well worth the money, in my opinion.
Three people wrote on the fly-leaf. How does that rub you?
When I first read of this case years ago, I recall, much was made about the particular copy of the Rubiyat found in the car being unique, or matching no known edition. I don’t see anything in the current discussions or articles about that issue. Has that aspect been resolved? Was it a non-issue? Or do I misremember?
How does that rub YOU, Nick?
earth to dome ..
… nothing there skipper, dome is out of range. Our job is done.
Brian, he’s ignoring you as well. Perhaps this might help, and please remember that I am at your service in these matters.
By 1889 five editions of the Fitzgerald translation had been loosed by the publishing houses.
Then there was –
Graf von Schack, Friedrich von Bodenstedt, Edward Henry Whinfield, J.B. Nicolas, John Leslie Garner, Justin Huntly McCarthy, Richard Le Gallienne, Edward Heron-Allen, Franz Toussaint, A.J. Arberry,Robert Graves, Omar Ali Shah, Peter Avery, John Heath-stubbs, Karim Emami, Ahmed Rami and Ahmad Saidi, all of whom had a shot at translating the old quatrains.
There were translations into Russian, German, Polish, Swedish, Afrikaans, Malayalam, Telugu, Hindi, Bengali, Oriya, Kannada, Welsh, Italian, Jerriais, Swahili, Cornish, Mandarin, Scottish, Arabian, Thai, Estonian, Dutch, Kurdish, Armenian, Assyrian, Sureth, Syriac, Finnish, Hungarian, Czech, Slovene, Serbo-Croation, Vietnamese, Galician, Bengali, Greek, Sanskrit and Japanese.
The rubaiyat influenced author Rex Stout, playwright Eugene O’Neill, author Agatha Christie, science fiction writer Lan Wright, composer Granville Bantock, author O. Henry, author H.P. Lovecroft, illustrator Edmund Dulac, filmmaker D.W. Griffith, writer Jose Louis Borges.
By 1919, 447 editions of Fitzgerald’s translation had been published, and during the first decades of the 20th century, the rubaiyat made its way into nearly every facet of peoples’ lives . A century ago, the average American and certainly every poet writing in English could quote stanzas verbatim. At the turn of the century, Fitzgeralds’ translations mushroomed from an elite phenomenon into a popular sensation.*
Nevertheless, and despite the fabulous, sustained and worldwide popularity of the book, the fact that a couple of people in Australia were connected to both the book and each other points to a conspiracy so deep, so obscure and so utterly unfathomable it (the conspiracy) may never be understood. May being maybe.
*The Harry Ransom Center, University of Texas website.
Brian: contrary to what hairy-headed Pete would have you believe, I’m not ignoring you, I’ve just been tied up dealing with trolled birth certificates. 🙁
As far as the Rubaiyat goes, Gerry Feltus devotes a fair amount of effort to it in his Appendix 5. In fact, he devoted a lot of time and effort to tracking down copies that might match the fonts and quatrain numbering etc, but never found one that matched the details released by the police at the time.
Unfortunately, his further analysis would seem to suggest that many (if not most) of the things presumed true about the particular Rubaiyat may well not be true. For example, the “Tamam Shud” image released to the newspapers at the time may not be quite representative of the original: and there may well have been a name on the rear of the Rubaiyat, but this has never been properly confirmed. It’s a mess, and all the physical evidence seems to have been discarded long ago.
Pete: the “t” in “Jestyn” closely matches the t’s on the rest of the page, so there’s no obvious reason to see those as two hands. Which leaves us the matter of (a) the two inks, and (b) the “e” layer. This is properly a codicological matter (i.e. examining the handwritten document to determine its construction method and sequence) rather than a cryptological matter: so it would perhaps be good to have a closer look at the “Jestyn” signature under a microscope, to try to work out what physically happened before we start getting too speculative about the whys and wherefores etc. 🙂
I shall defend to the tea-break any blogger’s inalienable right to ignore anyone they please!
.. but only to the tea-break because, when all is said and done, chocolate Jaffa biscuits are the single greatest incentive to harmony that the world has ever known. (excepting religion and IMO and similar caveats).
Diane: mmm… biscuits…
Blind Freddy, Nick ..
.. he’s just called and said he could see three inks and three different writing styles as well .. asked me to pass it on, he also thinks you have a problem with the nose in front of your face, because there are some things even he can see with his eyes shut.
That should do it.
Pingback: This gets technical, but only because everyone else is. | the somerton man. the tamam shud mystery
I do enjoy the occasional look at the Somerton Man mystery – it’s all so obscure, isn’t it?
Has anyone put together a WIKI site to exhaust some of the obvious possibilities? For instance, the couplet of couplets “ABAB” is in the title of the book, “AMAM” and, backwards or forwards, what’s the history of substitution reconstructions? (There’s only 676 in English, most of them absurd.)
the [Swearing] [Swearing] did it, [Swearing] the [Swearing]
“Tucked into a tiny fob pocket in the dead man’s trousers”
Nick: this is shameful, this ‘tiny’ fob pocket. It was a standard fob pocket in a standard pair of trousers sold by the thousands in Australia.
This alluding to hoary folklore, and blind adherence to Mr. Cleland’s testimony may not be good enough, now that we know more.
WEINER WEINER
The autopsy report seems to be compatible with portal hypertension, cirrhosis
Pete, a small tightly rolled piece of paper in the fob/watch pocket might have felt like a seam to the first searcher. Imagine the story without the second probe, which could have been an impulse. No phone numbers, no Jestyn, no Boxall, no Tamam Shud.
Knox: try it, we know the dimensions of the slip, the type if paper, so try it. I did.
Nick: Gordon has got it! … exuberance be buggered, GC has SCOOOOORED!!!!!!
.. pardon the exuberance, I’m a believer.
Um Pete…Where did everything go?
I have just extracted the weirdest thing from the ‘code’ text it goes as follows:
‘Q Testament set out to determine and
Wednesday. Similar from approximately
Czech. The Q from M as’ sofar I got some text through an very unlikely method, but ‘wednesday’ and ‘testament’ came out so I thought it as strikingly coincidental…
Has anyone done any testing of DNA that might remain?
The variations in the spelling of “Kean” could suggest that the names were phonetic renderings of a name that was unfamiliar to the writer.
Who had the phone number before Thompson had it?
A little off topic but here is a cute video of the nature of the rocket research at Woomera which may have been (was?) the subject of spying. Very high value target.
http://anasta.net/video/news/rocket-range-1948.html
Escher7: nice little Pathe video (though only worked on Firefox for me). 😉
Nick: is there any evidence you are aware of that substantiates the claim(s) that (phone / bank) numbers existed on, or in the rubaiyat ?
I can’t find any – and GF has stopped answering emails.
That’s really interesting. I wonder if that woman had something to do with his death since her phone number was there and she signed the book under a different name. Hmm . . .
I was re-reading the details of Prosper’s marriage to Queenie Thomson, and I noted two things that do not appear to have been mentioned previously.
Prosper McTaggart Thomson, salesman, age 23 married Queenie Elizabeth Constance Willder, hairdresser aged 20 at Mentone (Victoria) Church of St. Augustine (C of E) 11th July 1936. Details for Prosper: Bachelor. Birth place Charters Towers, Queensland. Occupation salesman. Age 23. Present address: 7 Williams Street Mentone. Usual address: Blacktown, NSW. Father: Ernest Thomson, investor. Mother: Alice Fortune Hawkes.
Details for Queenie: Spinster. Birth Place Rosebud, Victoria. Occupation: Hairdresser. Age 20. Present address: 7 Williams Street Mentone. Usual address: 7 Williams Street Mentone. Father: Alfred Charles Willder, builder, deceased. Mother: Emily Merry. The witnesses were H.R. Burch (spelling?) and A.C. Willder. (Ref: Certificate of marriage No: 8783).
Two interesting points. Prosper stated that his usual place of residence was Blacktown, NSW (which is a suburb of Sydney). Jessie is said (Feltus page 20) to have been born in Marrickville, which is another Sydney suburb, and she was studying nursing in Sydney 1942-46 (Feltus pages 20 and 26). Perhaps Jessie met Prosper when he was living at Blacktown or visiting his parents who were living in Concord in 1936? Prosper’s father owned a small block of land (9 acres) in the Shire of Blacktown in the 1920s and 30s.
The second interesting point is that Prosper’s father was an investor. Anyone investing during the Depression would have probably done very well financially when things improved after WW2. So, it is quite possible that Prosper’s father was quite wealthy when he died in 1956. Prosper’s parents, Ernest Chalmers Thomson and Isobel Alice Fortune Thomson are listed as living at 32 Burwood Road in the 1936 electoral roll for the electoral sub-division of Concord. 32 Burwood Road is in the Sydney suburb of Concord.
Jessie’s family was also living in Mentone at this time. It’s quite possible that they met there???
Did you know that Queenie Elizabeth Thomson was involved in a plane crash on Ansett Airways maiden flight from Sydney to Adelaide reported in the Advertiser 18th May, 1946?
The phone number for Thomson X3239 was listed in the Classified Advertising section of The Advertiser. The ad reads “New black sedan hire car available for weddings, country trips at special rates.’ Phone Thomson X3239.
Perhaps someone made a note of it on the back of their rubaiyat. Interestingly, Mr Thomson’s as appears just after the Funeral notices and just before the clothing section, including Australian American disposals and ballet shoes. A piece of trivia : X3239 is also a Shirley of Hollywood Plus size for a Scallop lace chemise and perhaps someone’s US Army discharge number. Have a nice day.S
BTW Queenie survived the crash, so conveniently before their divorce.
If Prosper was married in 1936 to Queenie, and he was 23 in 1948, it means he was 11 when he got married!
Sorry, he was 23 when he got married in 1936, so in 1948 he would have been 35.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!xcbg zzzzzzzzzzzz, somebody wake up
pete: I’m reading your posts, just because I don’t comment on every page – even the plausible made implausible stuff – doesn’t mean I’m not. 🙂
This is the internet, Nick, everybody got to HURRY, that’s the rule that grants instant gratification,
Pete: yeah, I always meant to get round to providing instant gratification for everyone, I’ll add that to my list of things to do… soon-ish. 🙂
Baited breath old man, I can hardly wait. See you soonish.
Latest article recently published here
Dennis – Good article. Some new stuff. Thanks for sharing. It might seem like no one is interested but we are!
Just passing through on the way home from HK …. This is not a loaded question: What was Jessica’s religion in her youthful years? I remember somebody saying she was converted to Judaism.
There doesn’t seem to be a birth certificate for Jessica. Nothing. Not from family. Not from filed records. Odd. Isn’t it? Did GF search for one?
With all of then attention this case has had, it seems strange that her provenance is still not known.
Do you think that if I tossed DA a couple of bucks he might have an answer?
pete: 525AUD should cover it, don’t you think?
For that much I might get a striped tie as well.
Pete: no need for your money, the Indiegogo campaign has already raised 525 AUD. Should be enough for a striped tie for each backer. 🙂
Nick: baby, you’ve gone mighty quiet on the whothefuckisthatdeadman mystery … Is there an elephant in the room?
Pete: I’m preparing a post on the subject of wtfitdm, as it happens. For what it’s worth, I suspect there is an elephant in there, but he’s not wearing George Smiley’s overcoat. 😉
Just putting it out there….
With a disclaimer that I am no handwriting specialist, I would suggest that either the note was written by lots of diffferent people (unlikely) or the authorities have managed to pick up lots of different layers of a busy scratchpad (more likely, I think)
Some observations:
A: are almost all different – different slopes on the bar (in fact different slopes on the letters); some sloppily runove outside the A (sometimes on either side) – there are definitel at least 3 different A’s (lean, curvuture/straighness of legs, crossbar)
B: some have more flourish than others, and line 3’s is better defined than line 1 or 4
C/D/E – only one of each – but note how horizontal the bars on the E are (like some of the A’s)
G: the top line is rounded and the bar in it is not very pronounced. The bottom line less round, but a very clear bar (although that might be from the flourished AB)
I: hard to tell any difference (although the beginning of the last line might be a scribble, rather than an I
L: both look the same
M/W: there appear to be at least 2 hands here….the M’s on third line (5th character) and fifth line (4th char) are less hurried than 4th line (char 1) and 5th line (char 8) (less hurried = look at the middle bit, and the relative length of each leg)
O/Q: Somebody writes nice neat O’s (so you can’t see where they start or finish, but a very lazy Q that is a little disconnected (and one of the O’s is more oval while the other is more egg-shaped)
P: both P’s look ever so slightly different – the first meets the stem and is flowing back around and down, the second has a more triangular loop and finishes above the stem pointing upward
R: Would have expected more consitency with the B (&P)….
S: fairly consistent
T: most sloping upward to right, some have a slightly curved bar – interestingly, most of the I’s seem to have a consistent lean, but the T’s don’t…
I think these imprints are the result of different owners of the book at different times, or at least different people, happening to rest something on the book to write….and that the scratchings that were found under UV light have picked up many different excerpts.
I think the lines are generally unrelated (and probably the ‘X’ too)
The letter sizes are all different and in different hands.
With a bit of imagination – especially imagine a copper trying to find the most defined lines in a busy scratchpad – the 4th line could almost be “Marlborough” (as in Marlborough St).
The spaces between the characters is a little bit all over the place too…..the two MLIA are a stark contrast in terms of spacing, letter width and letter height….
Of course, that being the case, it does seem a little interesting that there are no numbers….and you wonder a little why people would use the INSIDE of a book to lean on, when efen a paperback would be firmer on the outside than inside.
Either way, I’m convinced there’s several different handwritings in all those letters – and I think it suggests that it’s meaningless scribbles that have been picked up. It’s always looked unusually messy but increasingly I think it’s because the letters are disconnected….
The note seems more referential to “regret”, as addressed in the book itself. And, suggests a suicide note. The note in his pocket could be a talisman, to “finish” the regret.
I would offer : (I suggest using “M”, though “W” could work with “While” and “Would” for the first and second sentences)
Many regrets go on after birth and before death
May this be in my pocket and not Ellen Thomson’s pocket
(Hoping she has no regrets, unlike himself)
(Unfortunately, no one suggests she ever used Ellen as her name…)
My life is all but over and I am quite calm (I had found this blog when I searched “Somerton” and “my life is all but over”, as posted above by “Rob” >> I am in agreeance with you. )
It’s time to move to south Australia, Moseley Street thank God Almighty Bye
(last line is attributed in wiki to retired detective Gerry Feltus, with an alternative for the last four words)
Time to look at unknown boy stealing motor bike at Broken Hill then apparently dumping it at Adelaide 24 hours later, in 1948, Broken Hill to Adelaide, dirt ,corrugated potholed road, in the evening, fuel refill? boy, on a stolen bike, in the dead of night? Broken Hill to Adelaide is approx 500 kms. In the dark, on a very bad dirt road. The beginning of this story is very strange and not quite right.
The handwritten ‘code’ in the back of the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám book might be a MUSICAL NOTATION, not necessarily written by the Somerton man. It makes sense for at least 90% of the code so far, still working on it :
A, B, D, G : chords or notes, for example on a guitar. This is an internationaly adopted notation style, the writer could have spoken any language besides English.
| : not a capital ‘i’ but a bar line.
O : play open string.
OX : crossed ‘O’ : damp the string, don’t play the string.
Q : same as above : thinking of music while writing it down adresses different parts of the brain. Doing both at the same time could result in unvoluntary doodles : ‘I know I have to cross the ‘O’ but I’m allready thinking about the next chord.’ It’s something I would do if I was in a hurry to write down a chord progression in a eureka moment and when no other recording equipment was at hand.
–X—– horizontal line to indicate the nut of a guitar. The ‘x’ appears to be in second (5th) position : don’t play 5th string.
W, M, N (?) : the writer appears to have some difficulties forming an ‘M’, at least in the beginning. The ‘M’ becomes more fluent towards the end as if they haven’t written in a long time or don’t write much (capitals) overal. Maybe the ‘second line’ was added afterwards ? Maybe ‘M’ has 2 meanings. The first ‘M’ looks like a crown : ‘Play this on the instument with the crown-logo’. It could be a custom character to indicate the time signature. Metronome maybe ? If this was written with a ballpoint the clumsy first ‘M’ could be explained by trying to get the dried out ball rolling.
M : Middle finger ?
T : Thumb ?
R and L : could refer to Left hand, Right hand
PAN : could mean ‘slide’ : Middle finger, pan to E, Thumb (is that a period ?) Pink (little finger)
S or G (?) : the 5th and 8th character from the back : not sure what this is, probably not a ‘G’, they write the ‘other’ 2 G’s differently, both times.
Last 2 lines could be read vertically : ‘Play A with Thumb, B with Middle finger…
Final ‘B’ : this is a ‘glorious B’ : ‘I did it ! .. and now I’m done!’
You’re welcome – Glorious ‘e’
Nobody can solve this case without
1.persian knowledge
2.backtracking every step and possiblity to Jessica Ellen Thomson or her relatives whom she might have let something on.
anyway it is quite clear that the death has not occurred on somerton beach and that the body was lying in another position for long time before it was posed beside the home for cripples.every tag from the body was removed.So it is quite possible that the piece of paper was just a distraction.
Hi Enigna, The stolen motorcycle from Broken Hill is, I suspect, tied up with this case, I just can’t put my finger on it. If you were stealing a motorcycle, a joyride? why would you have a suitcase with you, surely it would have made sense to dump it asap after taking the bike. Why did the youth, Pruzinski, drive to Adelaide, did he have relatives/friends there? He told the police the clothes were inside the suitcase when dumped at Somerton Beach, so, if only the clothes were found-where did the suitcase end up? In Adelaide Railway Station? The trousers in the suitcase, I read, had sand in the turnups. The only link between the suitcase & the Somerton Man was the Barbour thread..
Re; Broken Hill etc. two things that stick in my mind is 1: Prosper drove to Broken Hill quite often and dealt with rifle sales. 2: The name Pruzsinki-isn’t this Hungarian in origin, the SM looked east European, just a thought!
Clive: sure, we have a little evidence of Prosper driving to Broken Hill, and a little evidence of Prosper trying to buy a rifle. However, nobody at all from the Pruszinski family seems to have dropped off the radar during that period… so it’s all a bit of a thin soup for the moment. 😐
Nick, we have more than a little evidence of Prosper wanting a rifle – he placed an ad for one during the inquest.
Rifle (wanted), automatic Winchester, model 63 or similar, for cash. Thomson 90A Moseley Street.
pete: I would agree that we have exactly a little evidence of Prosper wanting to buy a rifle on one occasion, though no evidence that he actually bought one, or even ever owned one.
All in all, this falls a fair way short of what Clive asserted in his comment, which was that Prosper “dealt with rifle sales”. That’s a lot of jam balanced on a very small piece of bread. 😐
Semantics: you must butter your toast with them in the morning, Nick.
Nick, Ok, I agree, Prosper may have dealt with rifle sales on one or two occasions and Broken Hill did have its rifle clubs. Still find it odd that Pruzsinki found his way to Glenelg/Somerton Park beaches-why not Largs Bay, Henley Beach, West Beach, all further North. Unless, of course, it had been arranged previously. And why dump the bike and walk down to Pt Noarlunga-was it out of fuel?
pete: they’re delicious with marmalade, too. 😉
I’m sure they are, Nick, and just as indigestible.
Maybe he is known maybe the people of his comunity dont care about him didnt want to speak up maybe some were scared to speak up maybe some thought who cares about him
Maybe he loved deciphering
Re. no name in the shoes because they were bespoke (Abbott). There might have been individual shoemakers who did not “brand” their shoes but the current general rule seems to be:
“… a leather ‘sock’ bearing the shoemaker’s name is inserted inside, …”.
–robbreport.com/fashion/connoisseurs-guide-bespoke-footwear#sthash.SSPNo1B2.dpuf
Loake shoes use numbers such as 204b (found in SM’s shoes). This is an old establishment and might have made shoes to order in the 1940’s. Was there a branch in the US at the time?
“Made-to-order is extreme customization—when a customer takes an existing style and selects the color, materials, and details. Bespoke is when an item is made from scratch to a buyer’s specification.”
–vanityfair.com/style/2012/06/six-best-custom-bespoke-mens-shoes
Today’s costs are from $3500 to over $100000. How well did the shoes fit? Is it possible the maker’s name was excised? If it was, the shoes might not have been made-to-order or bespoke and the maker imitated the location of the name from more expensive shoes instead of stamping it. If they were, and the name was not removed, then new shoes with a good fit for SM’s feet would have been an extraordinary find in a used clothing store. No conclusion can be had because people die with shoes in the price range mentioned that have hardly been worn and those could be donated to a second-hand store. The odds are not good enough that I’ll go looking for new $5000 shoes in salvage stores.
Re. the mended clothing. Rich or poor, some people are maintenance-minded. Indications are that SM had another container apart from the suitcase and he surely had a wallet. There is no single explanation for missing tags. His financial circumstances are unknown.
An interesting idea about the code, which I don’t believe to be true, is that it’s a “Chronogram”. The idea is just that most of the code is garbage, except the letters that are valid Roman Numerals. The garbage letters are used as distraction. This leaves us with MMMMDCLVIII = 4658.
And what about the X? Well, it fits the Glenelg phone number pretty well: X4658. That could explain why the X sits above the text, to avoid getting added to the Roman Numerals.
Turns out that the chances of 43 random letters containing a valid Roman Numeral sequence is about 10%. I was disappointed to find that. It’s just interesting enough, but not significant to tell us anything.
The phone number doesn’t trigger anything interesting in the newspaper archives. I don’t think it’s the solution, but is something to think about.
Cheer,
Simon
The elusive Donald Sterling and his unknown history would make anyone crazy. Clever, clever, clever as teen writing code for a three year old. Adam Tokowitz anyone!
I really hope this doesn’t fall into the category of trolling, it’s intended as a thought I had which I hope may help.
I was thinking about the abnormal splenic enlargement, did a google search and one cause stuck out to me….malaria, now, I think it’s unlikely malaria was the direct cause of death (although not impossible) but it does cause splenic enlargement as well as sometimes blood related issues that could explain the ruddiness on parts of his body.
If the SM was indeed a traveller (as seems likely) it’s not impossible he acquired it during his travels, or possibly even during military service.
I don’t claim any evidence for this, it’s purely speculative, but it is one possible explanation to a somewhat peculiar detail of the case.
Even if it were proven I’m not sure it’d help identify him or the cause of death, but maybe it’s a tiny jigsaw piece that helps the overall picture….or not?
Joe: malaria is certainly a possibility (and suggesting something so sensible is a very long way from trolling, thanks!), but as far as jigsaws go, it’s perhaps no more than a small piece of sky… we’ll need many more such pieces before things start to interlock in a satisfying way. 😐
Incidentally, am I the only person who sometimes likes to do jigsaws upside down? Perhaps that’s some kind of prerequisite for wanting to take on cipher mysteries. 😉
Here is my work on this cipher, looking at it from right to left. The first line is, ” DBABAOGRM “, or ” TAMAM SHUD “. The second line reads, ” IOAILM “, or ” PSNMPTD “, “P S EMPTIED “. The third line reads, ” PTENAPMIBTM “, or ” UEYNMUDPAED “, ” MONEY DUE PAID “. The fourth line reads, ” CQAIAOBAILM “, or ” ILMPMSAMPTD “, ” SAMPLE EMPTIED “. The fifth line reads, ” BAGTSMASTMTTI “, ” AMHERDMREDEER “, ” A DEEP(ER) MURDER MYSTERY “. The message reads, ” TAMAM SHUD – POISON SAMPLE – MONEY DUE PAID – SAMPLE EMPTIED – A DEEP(ER) MURDER MYSTERY “.
The second lined out line is, ” P S EMPTIED “, or ” POISON SAMPLE EMPTIED “.
Could it be that the poison used was Quinine ? It was used to treat malaria.
Hi Nick,
I grew up at Brighton near Somerton Beach shortly after the mystery man’s body was found. I am currently working on a novel (fiction revolving around real events), and the Somerton Man, Woomera and Parkside/Glenside Hospital are all background to the book. Reading your great site (as recommended by Pete Bowes) I saw that Keith Waldemar Mangnoson attended Parkside Hospital. The last entry I could find was 27 April 1950 – a report that he had been found after escaping the hospital. I have not been able to get permission to view hospital records, but am curious if he spent more time at Parkside. Another (possibly dubious claim) says that Jess Thompson worked there as a charge nurse sometime during the 60s. Once again I was not allowed to view hospital records, but would be interested to know if this was true. I’m not familiar with the protocols of asking such questions to you (or the blog site) so excuse me if I have approached this the wrong way.
John: thanks for dropping by! Don’t forget that Trove has a 60-year rule (only sidestepped in a few cases), so if anything made its way into the newspapers after 1953/1954 concerning Keith Mangnoson, Trove won’t tell us about it for a while. Having said that, the Internet surely presents less than 1% of the world’s databases to Google’s panoptic eye, so there are plenty of other databases out there for determined researchers to ferret out and search.
For example, have you thought about submitting an information request to the relevant state’s Police archivists? They may well have records relating to the whole sad Mangnoson affair that they deem are now historically ok to release at this distance of time.
Incidentally, I’ve been thinking for a long time about trying to compile a book listing 10,000 sources of research information that aren’t available on the Internet – things you have to go and consult for yourself. It’s a big world out there, and digitization is a slow, expensive process.
Does no one think it’s a little strange that Abbott married Rachel, who may have been the SM’s granddaughter? Don’t eat where you ****, and all that? And the correlation between Robin’s ears and hypodontia and the SM’s is really telling.
Nick – in the interests of sharing all the bounty: a lady over my way has a gentleman named Keane, ProsperT and a noted Communist functionary all in the one place and at the same time in South Australia.
Quote:
“Donald David Thomson, Prosper and Thomas Keane were all together at Heidelberg Hospital in Victoria in 1943.”
Her story is academically extensive and totally without support of any kind, but it’s been a long time between drinks as far as Somerton fiction is concerned.
Pete: I indeed saw the comment over at your site. Good luck with trying to find more on the 115th Heidelberg Military Hospital / 115th Australian General Hospital / 6th RAAF Hospital.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/026097/
It’s certainly true that Prosper Thomson was briefly there in 1943 (he was transferred from Prince Henry Hospital to “115AgH” on 28/6/1943, but discharged two weeks later on 10/7/1943):
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=6075734&S=3&N=7#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6075734&T=P&S=5
As to the rest… we shall see!
I went back and looked at my message that I posted on 09 DEC 16 . The coded message is ; ” TAMAM SHUD “, ” POISON EMPTIED “, ” MONEY DUE PAID “, ” SAMPLE EMPTIED “, ” A MURDER MYSTERY ” . I believe that I have it correctly deciphered now.
The deal was never completed, Rick, but I like one, two and four.
Theory:
The Somerton Man and Jestyn were both spies having an affair. He wrote her number in his copy of the Rubaiyat which she gave him, like she gave a copy to Alf, with whom she could have supposedly had some sort of romantic relationship (i read somewhere that he made romantic gestures but she rebuffed them because she was married? Maybe more happened than she let on, i mean she wrote a poem in it for him?) So it makes sense she might have given Somerton Man one too if they were seeing eachother. Somerton Man was an enemy spy which could explain why he wrote her number in the back of the book so lightly it could only be seen under ultraviolet light; he obviously couldnt write it in his diary could he? The code could be something only known by and relevant to Summerton Man and Jestyn, hence why it was written next to her number. I think i saw somewhere the writing could have been Somerton Man’s? (Don’t know if there is any evidence to support this)
Well anyway, ~someone~ found out about their affair, poisoned him, dumped him five minutes away from her ON PURPOSE, and put the end of the book she gave him in his pocket as a message that their relationship was “finished” – “tamam shud” and threw the book into a random person’s car knowing they’d probably put two and two together and turn in as evidence, serving as a message to Jestyn. It wouldnt have mattered if said person had just thrown the book out upon finding it and given it no thought anyway because the “Tamam Shud” had enough significance to her to publicly send her a message.
This would explain why his luggage was so mish mashed.. He was a spy, he travelled a lot, hence the different origins of the clothing and such. He could have packed any mish mash of clothes to avoid it looking suspicious when going through customs. His luggage is that of someone visiting briefly. Perhaps he was going to see their supposed son?
Her reaction, going extremely white to the point where she looked as if she was going to faint when being shown the cast of the man, again backs up my theory: she wasn’t in on it. It was done to hurt her and send a message.
Sucks that the code is still a mystery though. Correct me on any facts if I’m wrong.
I posted elsewhere…Keith Mangnoson was also at the “115AgH” in 1944.
Are you Russian Misca?
You have done some lovely and extensive research. What’s your story?
Because surnames are passed down from father to son in many cultures, and the Y chromosome is passed from father to son with a predictable rate of mutation, people with the same surname can use genealogical DNA testing to determine if they share a common ancestor within a genealogical timeframe.
Could it not just be that he commited suicide and the stuff with the book in the third paragraph there is either mischief-making or completely coincidental?
“Because surnames are passed down from father to son in many cultures, and the Y chromosome is passed from father to son with a predictable rate of mutation, people with the same surname can use genealogical DNA testing to determine if they share a common ancestor within a genealogical timeframe.”
I understand your angle Jennifer. 😉
”
Does no one think it’s a little strange that Abbott married Rachel, who may have been the SM’s granddaughter? Don’t eat where you ****, and all that? And the correlation between Robin’s ears and hypodontia and the SM’s is really telling.”
I think it’s great Taman Shud brought these two lovers together Emma. But as Rachel is an adoptee and not legally a Thomson she is not really going to get anywhere! 😉
GalaxyFanFan: the Tamam Shud wriggles out of all such explanatory devices with practised ease. You’ll have to try harder!!!!
Nick, I can’t find a proper place to post this.
I don’t remember seeing this before. I don’t buy the H.C. Reynolds story but the following is a bit of a coincidence.
I don’t remember having seen this before.
The Argus (Melbourne) 5th December 1947 page 1
Publican’s car stolen after warning ignored A man walked into the Phoenix Hotel, Flinders st, city, last Saturday and warned a barman that a car belonging to Mr H. C. Reynolds, the proprietor, would be stolen. On Wednesday night the car, a 1940 model Chrysler Imperial sedan, number BU-054, ,was removed from Collins place, city. Mr Reynolds last night offered a £50 reward for its recovery. He said the barman had told him that a gang of thieves intended to steal the car and had already obtained a set of duplicate keys for it. At first he discounted the story,’ thinking it was only “beer talking.” He forgot the warning until a barman reminded him yesterday.
Byron: it’s certainly an interesting coincidence. I mentioned the story before back in 2011 where I wrote:
Byron: …but re-reading it, it’s not half as clear-cut an argument against him as I seemed to think back in 2011 (however light a lead it may be), because the H. C. Reynolds mentioned could well have died in the preceding licence period (two years?). So perhaps it would be interesting to look at T. J. Fitzmaurice and Ettie Lilian Powers a little, see where they lead. 🙂
Byron: ah, Hubert Cyril Reynolds and Powers got the hotel licence back in December 1951 – http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23095956?searchTerm=tom%20Fitzmaurice%20phoenix&searchLimits= while Tom Fitzmaurice was a retired sportsman. (This page wasn’t on Trove back in 2011). 🙂
Manchester City!!!!!!!!!!!
Dss: errm… more like North Melbourne, acksherly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Fitzmaurice
Hey Nick,
I just wanted to let you know that I have the Taman Shud decoding on my website http://cosmicorderoftarot.com/ He was indeed a spy and the letters are mainly military acronyms. For example, Line 1 M/W RGOABABD is for Men/Woman Regimental (R) Ground (G) Operations (O), Amphibious (AB) & Airborne Division (ABD). The Airborne Division’s usual acronym is ABD. On this line he’s indicating the American Army and as well on Line 2, but the other lines outline British and Australian military acronyms. I also have the Shugborough Decoding on my website and another jewel of a decoding that’s quite extensive. I’ll be doing more decodings as time goes by… Contact me if you have any questions.
Have recently been trying to follow up on something I had previously dismissed and wondered what other peoples thoughts were. Has anybody investigated a possible link to the case of Senator Richard Valentine Keane’s Trunk?
Sue: Firstly, senators’ trunks, like old wives’ tales, can now be removed under local anaesthetic. Secondly, just to say that I liked your choice of username but this would properly be pronounced ‘Pseudeniv’.
I was thinking NIMH as in ‘The Rats of NIMH’
(cos’ I could probably use their services)
SirHubert: mhery good! 😉
I wonder if anyone has looked at the numbers as Longitude or Latitude.. Just a thought.
4 8 15 16 23 48
lati: 48,15
long: 16,23
place: Wien, Austria.
lati: 48,151
long: 62,342
place:somewhere in Khazakstan
Also nobody thinks the writting is a language but has anyone tried to translate it.. IT can be several different things when tried for example”
loailm : Authorization weather
MLIAOL: Lao weather in estonesian : Loa in vietnamese is speakers:
MLiABOAIAQC : VItabolic or MILAN CATANIA which are locations when letters are switched..
People have been using combinations of letters for years, or spelling things out backwards in another language to confuse people..Look at the Harlem Shake when translated it means Down with the Terrorist.. Yet, few noticed or looked at that.. Hidden meanings in front of your face -so-per-say.. Just another thought..
Where have numbers [4] [8] [15] [16] [23] [48] come from?
(They look like the numbers from LOST).
It has been pointed out by many people that if you reverse the first line of the code…
MRGOABABD to become DBABA OGRM
then this could be TAMAM SHUD.
Has anyone tried reversing the entire code and filling in the letters as a simple cipher.
Could it reversed enciphered Malay? I suggest Malay because Boxall’s copy of the Rubaiyat was a dual language edition in both English and Malay. And of course Marshall was Malaysian.
Sue d’Nimh,
Please see my solution to the code that I posted on 09NOV15 and 22JAN16 . I took each line and reversed each one in English . Check out my work and give me your feedback . Thank you very much .
Nick: Did you ever consider that the old bugger H. C. Reynolds may well have died in 48 and yet arose again, he being prop. of the PHOENIX hotel….ah forget it lets get serious. Did anyone ever give any thoughts to the Bickford family a very secretive lot you never met and of course owners of the big pad overlooking S.M’s beach. Quite a few were born in the early 20th century, some even in the old house and one may have had the yen to see the old place one more time. Just a thought and by the bye, check out the profile picks of actor Charles Bickford, a spitting image of S.M on the slab.
John sanders: yeah, there’s been a fair bit of talk about the Bickfords here recently, but only really in connection with pharmaceutical malpractice. 🙂
Here is a interesting result applying a standard vignere encryption(http://rumkin.com/tools/cipher/vigenere-keyed.php) on the code in the rabayiat.
Encrypting MLIABOAIAQC using MTBIMPANETP as passphrase you get YEJINDAVEJR which is bacically two names YEJIN and DAVE JR
Seems a bit coincidental to me
Johan: I’m sorry to say that to my eyes, YEJINDAVEJR looks like the kind of “micro-match” that has so plagued Zodiac Killer cipher research. Basically: the Rubaiyat text resembles an English acrostic cryptogram 100x more than it resembles a Vigenere cryptogram, so you would seem to be on a “losing wicket” with this one. 😐
I have no idea about probabilities 😀
Would be interesting though if the name ZE-JIN or DAVE JR was around back then in Glenelg. Heck, the book might not even be related to the man on the beach. Is there any strong relation between the tamam shud note in the mans pocket and the book? Same font matching that edition for example?
Johan: finding a mysterious piece of paper in a dead man’s pocket with “Tamam Shud” on it… and then later finding the book from which it (almost without any doubt) had been removed in a car less than a mile from where the man was found dead… is quite a funky coincidence, wouldn’t you say?
Yes, if the finder of the book wasn’t just pulling a prank, ripping out the tamam shud text from his book after police announced the finding of the note. The ripped out portion does not match the note directly.
A mismatch of font in the book would rule out the note coming from that book. I have not found any note relating to a checkup of this which is a little strange to me. Was the book so rare? Some copy of it would be around wouldn’t you think?
Johan: people (most notable of whom is Gerry Feltus) have been searching for a matching copy of the Rubaiyat for decades without any luck. That is a mystery on its own: perhaps one will turn up in the future, who knows?
We don’t know for certain if the ripped out portion matches the copy or not, because (a) it has long been said that the police did not show the actual ripped out hole in their photographs (to prevent people from ripping a matching hole in a copy), and (b) the Rubaiyat itself was discarded long ago (though the “Tamam Shud” still remains).
Thanks for your reply and thanks for a great site.
By the way did you notice that both ciphertext and passphrase were taken from the note? If I were to choose whatever passphrase I like of course I could produce anything but to get a somewhat meaningful answer by just using data from the note seems coincidental. Normally you would get total gibberish doing something like this, try to choose some random passphrase yourself 😉
Johan: yes, I noticed just fine. But… did you notice that MLIABOAIAQC has three As and two Is, while MTBIMPANETP has two Ms, two Ts, and two Ps? Given that your “YEJINDAVEJR” has two Es and two Js, your Vigenere decryption has the effect of flattening the frequency instances, which is the statistical opposite of what a cryptologist would expect. Just so you know. 🙂
Nick: yes, flattening of the frequency would be expected as I do a ENCRYPT(if you read back) operation not a decrypt.
I just say there is a coincidence. We don’t know if the text is an attempt to decrypt or encrypt. Maybe what we see is a failed attempt to encrypt YEJINDAVEJR? Or some other attempt involving said text.
CLutching at straws/coincidence….
Aside from:
1) Yejin = rare name (esp in Australia back then)}
2) Dave Jr is a bit odd without a surname
3) Any number of other issues you might have with the decryption
What’s the point of sending ciphertext and key together – especially when the text is so “random” that people would immediately think there’s some trick to reading it?
Does not make an iota of sense in my mind.
2c
mil
milongal: all fair enough – but my point was rather that because of the letter repetitions, neither of the two strings looks much like a Vigenere ciphertext in the first place. 😐
milongal: We don’t know the purpose of the text. It might not be meant as a message, maybe it’s just scribblings for another purpose. Maybe the writes received a message he/she is trying to decode but failing for some reason not a message he/she is sending, or the final message is sent elsewhere. ZEJINDAVEJR might be the passphrase shining through. Lots of possibilities here.
Johan: from a codebreaker’s point of view, there are actually very few possibilities here that aren’t directly contradicted by the statistics (e.g. the letter instance frequency distribution).
Early on, the page was run past the great Australian codebreaker Eric Nave (without any real doubt, because he’s described elliptically in the newspaper reports), who quickly eliminated cipher systems such as Vigenere and came to a conclusion that still stands, 60+ years on – that because the choice and distribution of the letters are entirely typical of the first letters of English words, what we are looking at here is an acrostic text.
Nick: Yes, I totally see that point. But in honest I think the number of letters we have in this cipher is too few to make any statistics on. Especially considering the fact that we don’t know the purpose of the letters. It might be several attempts at the same, maybe very short, phrase.
Johan: as a rule of thumb, you should be able to solve a simple (monoalphabetic) substitution cipher with roughly 30 letters, or even with less if the text or context happens to offer you some help.
For the Rubaiyat cryptogram, we have roughly 44 letters, which should (if the transcription isn’t completely broken, which is always possible) be enough to break it. But it’s not that kind of a thing. 🙁
Nick: Or we have 9-12 letters in different configurations. As there is no way at this point of knowing the context of these letters I think any assumption about them is limiting the understanding of them.
As I understand the letters are not even written in the book but indentations caused by writing on another paper laying on top of the indented page. Am I right?
If this is the case the letters and markings might not even be written at the same time for the same purpose. Overlaying different markings, like the line though the first MLIAOI might not be a strike through but another line related to other lines on the paper.
Johan: there’s a lot yet to be written about the code page (which is a great deal more subtle than you give it credit), but that’s a post for another day. 🙂
Nick: Interesting 🙂 Looking forward to read about that.
@Nick – absolutely agree, my point was more aimed at Johan.
@Johan – agree this isn’t necessarily a message and could be a decryption attempt (It sort of makes the MLIAO strikeout interesting in some respects). And I can even see (though not really agree) that in that case yevindavejr might be a key shining through – but that wasn’t the statement I was replying to (because I don’t think it had been made).
My point was more that Yevin and Dave Jr being something significant that’s been decrypted seemed rather unlikely….
And I 100% agree that there’s a veritable shedload of possibilities….which is one of the reasons noone has managed to come up with any “solution” to it (and if it is the first letters of words, as many would believe, we could speculate on the exact meaning forever – I don’t know we can ever be certain, in that case, that any solution is correct).
Hi Nick: curious about your claim that 30 letters is a viable message length to break a mono-alphabetic substitution cipher. Is that a length at which it’s theoretically possible or normally doable? If that’s the industry standard I have a long way to go!
SirHubert: it strongly depends on the nature of the underlying message, so there is no fixed figure. But if you download a programme such as CryptoCrack and put 30-character-long enciphered messages into it, you will almost always see the message (or something very close to it) in its list of best guesses.
Of course, if you have some hint about the contents, or the message includes some unusual combination of letters, or it’s an aristocrat rather than a patristocrat (etc), you can often solve much shorter messages. But that’s more like crossword solving than pure cryptology, of course. 🙂
Thanks – very interesting 🙂
…and goes to show that a sophisticated computer program can combine a variety of techniques far more effectively than I can!
(1) Are the end words “Tamam Shud” only found in FitzGerald’s First edition and no other edition?
(2) Has DNA samples and hair been recovered in the SM’s grave? And who puts the flowers there?
(3) Why would a seaman smoke ” Kensitas” cigarettes when his pack was Army & Navy brand ?
(4) Why would the SM be interested in Tetra Antennas?
(5) The WRE’s first launch from range F was on the 22nd March 1949, 112 days after SM died, however earlier UP’s launches at Port Wakefield with primitive electronic equipment for training staff was initiated.
Hal: (1) I believe that “Tamam Shud” is at the end of pretty much all of them.
(2) No, the hair samples were embedded in the plaster cast that was taken of his body in 1949. No DNA samples have been taken (yet).
(3) Was he a seaman? If you were poor and a smoker, you’d smoke what you could get, I’d guess.
(4) Why might you think there was anything connecting the Somerton Man to “Tetra Antennas”?
(5) Errrm… given that that’s a statement rather than a question, I guess I’m off the hook now. 😉
Can I have a turn Hal?
1) I think though all (or almost all) versions end with Tamam Shud, the Fitzgerald is of interest because:
a) There’s no further writing on the back
b) The colour of the paper is consistent
c) the police are “certain” they found the book it was ripped from (I suspect there’s a lot of cynicism about the certainty – of course once you start doubting the police are giving the true story then you can’t believe anything (and I suppose to be fair I could think of relatively benign reasons they’d lie as well as the highly conspiratorial ones)
2) The assumption (I think) is that Jestyn used to put the flowers on the grave. I’m a little curious that we apparently know it was “a woman” (so obviosuly she’s been seen) but I don’t know there was ever any effort made to intercept her. I have a recollection that at some stage some stones were found placed on the grave (which is consistent with Jewish faith/tradition) which adds fuel to the speculation as Jestyn converted to Judaism later in life (and is buried in the Jewish section of Centennial Park).
3) I used to smoke, and there were probably times when I’d scabbed off my friends (or stolen from my parents) for whatever reason and had B&H or Marlboro smokes in an otherwise empty Escort packet (and probably know people who would have either of those brands in a Holiday or Horizon packet at some stage – which at the time would have been the budget end of the spectrum (although not sure that B&H or Marlboro were particularly high-end, just a little more upmarket than Escort)) – we also used to carry cassette-tape boxes to store smokes in – because their hard shell stopped them getting broken in your pocket. I don’t know what the price/status difference between Kensitas and Army & Navy would be….althoguh I’ll grant it’s perhaps curious for a grown man.
4/5) No idea.
(1) My information is that only the first edition of FitzGeralds has this ending.
(2) It’s important to get long strands of hair for nuclear analysis.
(3) His suitcase was full of seamans – officers equipment.
(4) The tetra antennas was in his coded message.
(5) If his girlfriend spoke Russian and her daughter said she knew that she was a spy in a later TV doco, therefore the only activity the Russians were interested in was WRE electronic equipment as the captured German Wurzburg & Seetakt systems were not up to speed. Australian security was at this time very risky as the Americans blackballed Australia from all access to secrets.
Hal: (1) where did your information come from?
(2) according to Derek Abbott, it’s difficult to get DNA from an old hair, even from the hair’s root
(3) the suitcase had stuff that could be interpreted in many different ways, though none conclusively just yet
(4) why do you think this? Did you decrypt the message, or are you relying on someone else’s decryption?
(5) to my eyes, that whole romantic narrative still seems to rest more on wishful thinking than on any solid evidence per se. Unless you have evidence you can point me to?
The reason she passed the book, is because it is the cypher. Without the original and knowing what page, paragraph, etc. you will never figure it out.
To whom it may concern :
I am a 32 year old Belgian woman and I believe to have discovered important breakthrough information on an Australian cold case : The Tamam Shud case aka The Somerton man.
I have found a huge breakthrough in the case of the Somerton Man : I have figured out HIS JOB. The job is such a specific one, that it narrows down the possibilities for his identity in a significant way.
My theory combines several of the different facts in this case.
First of all – as many – I believed the Somerset man to be involved with music of some kind. This due to the Rubayat being a book with quatrains and the ‘code’ which I believe had something to do with music as well.
My theory also explains his very particular calve muscles, and the contents of his suitcase.
As I believed he was a musician I went looking for a link between this calve muscle and an instrument. I found that an organ player would often have strongly developed calve muscles (due to their playing)
Also organists would have pointy shoes to hit the right pedal … as I went on in my research I found more and more clues leading to the same conclusion.
When I came to the suitcase contents, most of them are in a basic repair set for an organ. I mean the zinc square, the stenciling set, the wax threat … are were commonly used for the repair of organs at the specific time.
At the time it was also noticed that the Somerton man shoes were very neat, which is a trait typical for organists as well.
At some point I read about a hotel receptionist stating ‘a weird man had stayed there, who had a case not uncommon for a musician’ and when an employee had looked into it, he had seen a needle of some sort. There is such thing as an organ needle …
I think all above proves that we are no longer looking for a missing person, but a missing organist. There are only few cases of missing organists and I invite you to all look into it. I believe the end is near and our Somerton man will be identified any time soon. Please contact me asap by email : Shirleyshowdown [at] gmail [dot] com
BR
Shirley: I’ve searched through Australian newspapers on Trove, but can’t find any obviously missing organists. The nearest was an organist in the RAAF who was thought to have been in a plane crash in 1945:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/83625467
…so I suspect you may possibly be out of luck. 🙁
The organist is an interesting theory and I think “strong calf muscles” could particularly relate to someone who had to pump the air themselves (eg a harmonium) – although I suspect even the pedalboard would give the legs a fair workout. What I think is particularly interesting, is that there was some mention that he had perhaps been in the habit of wearing women’s shoes (I think). Many years ago when I wanted to learn the organ (I didn’t get very far) the first things I was told was that you need small (preferably pointy) shoes, and that you really want leather soles (although I’m suspecting in the 40s all shoes had leather soles?). (good) Organists play the pedalboard by feel, not by sight (expert ones probably just “know” where the pedals are), but so you kick for gaps between the “black” (often not actually black on an organ pedal board, but not sure what you call them) keys. They also play with 3 parts of the foot – the toe, the heel and (when they have to reach extremes on the pedalboard) the side of the foot. Large clunky shoes make this difficult, and risk you hitting two keys when you play with the toe. Additionally, when there’s any pace in the bass (by organ standards, even crotchets are probably fast – but you do get music with even shorter notes) you need to be able to slip around the board quickly, and leather sole shoes are delightfully slippery for such a task (as opposed to rubber ones which stick a little bit).
Extrapolating a little bit, the front of the shoes on a less experienced organist would scuff with all the kicking for gaps, however I would imagine that the shoes themselves are normally reasonable quality, and an organist might be forever polishing their shoes (no point just polishing the scuffed toe), so I think there’s certainly a plausibility to the idea.
Adelaide is small, however, and has few organs – although (I think) there would have been at least 4, possibly 5 within the city – Town Hall, St Francis Xavier’s Cathedral (Catholic), St Peters Cathedral (CoE) and I’m fairly sure Pilgrim Uniting already had one – although online research suggests that they may have had 4 churches in the city, of which at least Flinders St and Pirie St ones make mention of (historically) significant organs. Elder Hall (aka Elder Conservatorium of Music (aka “The Con”)) within the University may also have already had one – but technically the South side of North Tce is outside the city square mile isn’t it? It’s probably likely that any theatres in the city also had organs so there could have been 10 or so. While there is some sharing of organists (even today) this would mean that there’s probably 10 or more organists of reasonable talent wandering around (I know SFX used to have 3, one of whom was well known in musical circles, another would probably be familiar in similar circles (and also played the organ in another city church), and the third I think was basically equivalent to a home-hobbyist, and while over time that has changed a little, the basic theme remains – only the principal organist is renowned. It is entirely possible that there’s no report of a “missing organist” simply because he was a small-time/hobby organist or a secondary organist rather than a musician of any note (::rolleyes::). But I suppose in this case, my point is he may have played the organ, but that’s of minimal help (which I guess is basically Nick’s point above too).
I don’t particularly buy into musical links to the rubaiyat – but then I tend to think the significance of the rubaiyat is over stated and over-analysed most of the time.
So I’ll leave you with this thought: Musicians are temperamental…90% temper and 10% mental.
NB: I think Adelaide’s most famous organist at the time was James Govenlock (who later moved to Melbourne) – but he might have come a bit later too….and he definitely lived well beyond the 50s.
sounds to me like Strachan’s in the wind. 🙂
Sorry to burst any bubbles, but the calf muscles related to organ playing is not a theory worth pursuing. At all.. Pushing down on a light weight wooden pedal is less strenuous than walking…or even standing. The champion organ player in my high school advanced music class was a 50kg girl with stick legs. And my 80 year old Nana still plays the organ. With stick legs… I think we’re straying from the point. To be honest, enlarged calf muscles like SM had, as well as the issues he had with his toes, can realistically point to ballet….if you consider them both bodily features that have resulted from a particular activity. But if we’re open to suggestions, is it unrealistic to assume that maybe he was born with both?
Just going through some of the old pruszinski stuff and wondered if anything came of the response to gain information from friends and rels is a great idea but if it didn’t produce results I guess a direct approach to the players must be considered. Unfortunately they all seem to have gone to heaven or left town. Don Carlin has moved and may still be with us and as for the siblings Joan Jack and young Don they would all still be in their 70s but perhaps not recall much about their brother’s doings in 1948. The other thing we cannot be really assured of is whether the charged offender Frederick William & Richard Frederick are one & the same. I’m not sure about it at all and one reason is that although the same age our thief doesn’t appear to share the same ethics and social standing of dead ‘fred’. It seems that this family had been in The BH area forever bred like newts to boot and its more than as likely not that another 17 year old with a less socially reliable background might be our man. I know that this has already been raked over by others more SM knowledgeable than I but alas the name Fred hits a nerve and I’d like to give it another spin. Please advise if any other info has surfaced.
if you want detailed info on the theory of organist, please send me an email at shirleyshowdown [at] gmail [dot] com and I will send you my file, still writing on it, but perhaps you can help me. I can explain almost every object in his suitcase, the loupe, the wax string, etcetera, etcetera
I am only sure about the organist theory, it would help us a great deal because that would narrow down the possibilities enormesly … I will ivestagate Lawrence K Whipp, who went missing (american in paris) after the war. During the war a lot of churches were occupied by the german, who kept the organist for entertainment reasons and after they were always in strange positions as they were often seen as collaborating. Not saying this is the case, but it is an option. On the organist, however, THAT i am sur eabout
The loupe, for example, could easyliy have been one for searching organ needle breakage. The razor strap, was not a razor strap, in fact but an organ bellow. those look exactly the same … there are so many clues … glas somebody is finally picking up on it ..
As I am located in Belgium I could use some help locating all organs … Jestyn being a nurse perhaps hospital organs also?
When looking for missing organist, please keep in mind that he might be an alien …
shirley: I’m not sure I want to ask my blog readers to go searching for alien organs, sounds a bit too ‘Spooky Mulder’ for me. 😉
Regarding the Organ (or more specifically about dismissing the idea because some little old lady plays the Organ), I have two thoughts…
– some organists may practice (or even play regularly) on a harmonium or similar (where you pedal the air yourself) – and those pedals need more strength than the pedalboard on an organ (you constantly twist your foot pivoting at the angle – I could believe that developing your calf)….In fact, I think a lot of smaller churches probably had harmoniums (or pump organs) – in Adelaide which was already developing it’s reputation as “the city of churches”
– There’s organ players and there’s organists. I think there’s a difference between someone who plays once a week at Church (and maybe a couple of times practicing) and someone who regularly practices and performs. Aside from the obvious fact that the latter would play far more often (so there’s a repetitive factor irrespective of the weight of the pedals), Church Organ is very different to Performance Organ. I know people who could play hymns beautifully (where the Bass is normally quite simple – and you often just act as though your left pinkie is tied to your left foot), but would struggle with the pedal component to a Wedding March (like Widor’s toccata). In fact, as I wrote this it occured to me that there’s plenty of organists on Youtube. If you look for “Diane Bish Widor” you’ll find a video of her playing, and at various points (eg 1:40) it shows her working the pedalboard, and because of the light clothes she’s wearing (as opposed to most organists I’ve found who wear black trousers) it certainly appears like her calves are getting a good work out
The more likely (in terms of a missing person) is the harmonium – since the skill required to play one is essentially just keyboard, so there would be very many around potentially, and one going missing would be barely noticed – certainly not enough for people to say “an organist went missing”. The latter, well, probably there are few enough organists proficient enough that (especially in a small place like 1940’s Adelaide) if one went missing it would be national news. Of course, it could be a prominent European organist displaced by the war…but we digress.
IMO, the Organist angle is certainly possible, even if unlikely (or useless – knowing someone was an amateur/Church organist doesn’t help us identify them).
I remain convinced that this was a failed attempt to decipher a message hence the tragic circumstances of the incident. the first line of the puzzle is compatible with possible values ascribed to ”TAMAM SHUD ” reversed.
a few people have noted this of course.
I wonder if the probably deleted line M LIAOI should be rendered
x
ML / ABO with the presumed I as /
the peculiar ”c” after the Q is more likely an unfinished S
g llewin: quite a few people have pointed out – and for a whole range of different reasons – that the police’s interpretation of the letters on the Rubaiyat code page may not have been 100% accurate. Sadly, until someone finds more / better photographs or a higher resolution scan, that’s all we have to work with here. 🙁
thanks .
yes, of course. but if its to be assumed that M LIAOI is deleted, then I think my suggestion for ML/ABO might, if not take us far, then point in a new direction. I maintain the final line ITTMT… etc is itself a tragic failure to solve an encoded message and cannot be read as a ”solution”. like the phaistos disc, most of the suggestions offered read like crossword clues, whereas the real solution would most likely be precise and unobscure
Like a lot of other contributors I’m going over the 116 hospital business re staff, patients (POW returnees) and its a real can of worms but feel that I’m coming up with stuff that is very interesting and possibly relevant. However there are some peripheral aspects that I should comment on that are related and I think might create some discussion. We’ll start off by commenting on the apparent lack of labelling on some of the clothes which have caused a lot of theoretical comment over the past 68 years. I believe a simple and logical reason might be that these items could well have been factory seconds that had their manufacturers tags removed prior to sending off to people like the Red Cross, naafi, asco or other service related charities, hospitals and the like for distribution men returning from POW internment or the like. Of course other companies like ‘marco’ for instance may not have seen the need to do this with their discards but you might recall that both the stamina and Marco trousers had what might well have been maker imperfections (mended pocket and maybe an imperfect fob pocket stitching. If you’re happy so far than the following should be a no Brainerd. The English shoes with the impression Mark 204b which is a number that related to boots & not shoes is a logical extension of the same theory and likewise with two of the three Rubaiyats which were probably editorial mistakes which deemed them to be unavailable to the public but OK for distribution to hospitals or troops as part of their help the war effort policy. With regard to Alf Boxall’s 1941 copy in English and Malay the easy answer is that the addition would probably have been for distribution in the F.S. of Malaya but unfortunately the Japanese invasion made the deal unable. I do feel that my synopsis is worthy at least of some merit and would like to see some input from others either for or agin.
My apologies of course I meant 115 Heidelberg hospital where many POW’s went for treatment and rehabilitation following their internment by our Japanese brothers in 1945/46.
Gor: there is definitely something different about the final line, but it’s hard to quantify what that is exactly. There’s a post here about that, I’ll try to ferret it out for you…
WON’T RISK GAMBLING OVER ANOTHER BUYER ADVOCATE BETTER DEAL
MAYBE LIASE INTERIM ALTERNATIVE OFFER (apparently deleted)
WITH TENTATIVE BROKERAGE INPLACE MIGHT PROPOSE AGREED
NOMINAL EXTENSION TO PROVIDORE
MUST LEAVE INITIATIVE ADVANTAGEOUS BUT OPEN-ENDED….ACT
INTUITIVELY & QUICKLY CONCLUDE
IMPLICITLY TRUST THAT MARSHALL TAMAM SHUD MUST SERVE TO GAG
ALF BOXALL
The foregoing was revealed whilst analyzing the shadowed rift within the
letter I forming the first letter in the word implicitly. Another message in plain advises not to believe anything that might be found under the letter Q.
After almost 68 years are we any closer now to knowing SM’s name than on the day his body was found?
Bumpkin: that depends on who you ask, and who you believe. 🙂 For myself, I suspect that we’re much closer to the answer than we’ve ever been, despite the ridiculous amount of distracting noise that the Internet presents.
Bumpkin: as a post-script, I’d add that I would now be unsurprised if I have seen the Somerton Man’s name on, say, a passenger list without even knowing it. That is, I think we’re looking at the right kind of names for the right kind of reasons, so I’m optimistic that we’ll achieve a good result.
Bumpkin, DA’s group have been able to recover mitochondrial DNA from a sample of the hair trapped in the plaster bust. DA has said that the mtDNA haplogroup is H. If the H haplogroup defining SNPs can be recovered then there is a reasonable chance that more specific typing SNPs can be recovered. From memory there are now more than a hundred sub-types of the H haplogroup and I think it is quite likely that DA’s group will identify a sufficiently small sub-group so it becomes possible to enlist the help of people who have tested and been found to carry the haplogroup in question. Genealogists would fall over themselves looking for lost relations that fit the SM profile. So, yes, I am hopeful that SM will be identified within the next five years.
There were two suicides in Adelaide in December 1948.
We know that two middle-aged male bodies occupied shelves in the same refrigeration unit at the Adelaide mortuary from the 15th of December to the 23rd of February, both had been poisoned, both had similar autopsy incisions. One man had left only his name in a hotel register, the other body had no identification when found.
During this period there were many visitors to the mortuary, all claiming to know the man whose face and profile had been published by the local press. These photographs were of the body discovered on the 1st of December and were taken by Police Photographer PJ Durham on the 3rd.
No photographs of the body discovered on the 15th of December were released to the press.
Laurie Elliott, a skilled embalmer, returned to Adelaide from England in early January and was invited by the police to visit the morgue where he was asked if he could embalm one of the two male bodies stored in the refrigeration unit. Elliott obliged and commenced work on the 10th of January assisted by Const Sutherland, who observed the body had three small scars inside the left wrist, one inside the left elbow and a scar or boil mark on the upper left forearm.
One body was buried on February 23rd. The other remained in the mortuary and under Elliott’s maintenance until June, when taxidermist Paul Lawson made one plaster cast of its head and shoulders and one each of its ears. The flesh of the head, by all accounts, was in an advanced state of rot despite the embalming.
Prior to casting the ears and removing the hardened plaster covering the body’s head and shoulders and piecing it together Lawson was visited by the police. Then he received a call from Police Photographer PJ Durham.
Lawson and Durham talked about the disposal of the original body (see Lawsons’ notes). Some think they were talking about the first body found, in particular its ears as Lawson had yet to commence making his ear casts. They think the shape, size and structure of the ears Lawson attached to the bust were the result of the conversation he had with Durham, and were not those of the body he was working on.
The Somerton body – 5’11”, eyes hazel, hair gingery turning grey, well-built, slight scar on the upper left arm*, about 45 years.
Tibor Kaldor’s body – 5’6″, eyes grey, hair brown turning grey, build medium, 45 years.
*GF p93.
Laurie Elliott embalmed a body with five scars, Dwyer LQMP examined a body with one.
pete bowes: as cockup scenarios go, it’s all ~possible~, but how does it actually help explain who the Somerton Man was? We know exactly who Tibor Kaldor was, and he was someone else.
I don’t do answers, I’m in it for the information these days, and now you have more than you did an hour ago. If you can’t use it fair enough, others might have the energy to look further.
Pete bowes: isn’t it strange that the Internet is full of information but almost devoid of knowledge?
Clive chanced upon a newspaper article that changed everything …
But everything remains the same here.
Pete bowes: I don’t yet see how Gordon’s posts have changed anything. For a start, Tibor Kaldor was buried on 23 February 1949, and Lawson started on the plaster cast on June 2nd 1949: so Lawson can only ever have had one of the bodies to work with, and so we can eliminate all they-got-the-wrong-ears scenarios straight away.
In which case, the only partially plausible scenario Gordon and Clive have is the shit-we-buried-the-wrong-body-let’s-hope-nobody-notices scenario. And that’s quite a hard sell. 😐
.. as I said, everything remains the same here. I’ve enjoyed our little cross-blog chat, good luck with Dave and his gran, and the letters, we must not forget the letters.
Best.
Bowes.
Pete bowes: good luck with Gordon Cramer and Xlamb on your side, I’m sure my ‘Dream Team’ would have a quite different line-up.
@ Pete and Nick: I’m laying bets on two of Nick’s frequent reply-ers: Misca and Milongal.
bd
Nick. Do you support or oppose the effort to exhume SM and do a DNA test? If yes, why. If no, why not. I support it because I believe this is the best and probably only way to ID him.
Nick. After all these years, what do we know for certain? Are we certain Jestyn knew SM? Are we certain SM is her son Robin’s biological father or any relation at all? Are we certain Robin is Rachel Egan’s biological father? Are we certain SM was in Adelaide to meet Jestyn or Prosper? I say “No” to all these questions. Maybe, back in 1948, Jestyn told the truth. That she did not know who he was. Maybe, this family is a dead end.
Bumpkin: all the while the primary reason for exhumation remains DNA fishing, something big is missing from the picture. Australia has excellent archives, what is missing is the historical imagination to make full use of them.
Nick: No disrespect intended but I have no idea what that means. I merely asked a few simple questions and would appreciate a few simple answers.
Nick: I first discovered the Tamam Shud/ Somerton Man case when it was featured on Wikipedia’s “On this day…” back in 2012. A year later, 60 Minutes- Australia had an interview with Nurse Jestyn’s daughter Kate and Jestyn’s presumed granddaughter Rachel Egan. At the time, I thought this was a major break in the case. However, since then, nothing. Absolutely nothing. What am I missing when I say “Maybe, this family is a dead end.”
@Bumpkin if I may:
After all these years, what do we know for certain?
We know a body was found on a beach with a few posessions (including bus and train tickets). We know that some time later a suitcase left at the Railway station was most likely related. There’s a whole bunch of speculation, extrapolation, assumption etc that gives a much bigger picture, but I can’t help but feel even some of the “absolute definites” (eg “the bus ticket was sold between King William St and the corner of West and South Tces”) are built on assumptions, recollections and frankly a whole bunch of human factor which is not incorruptible (eg, with the tickets (or for that matter the suitcase stub) we rely on people after the fact making statements based on recollection and notes they may (or may not) have taken. What if the conductor didn’t write down the right ticket sequence number? What if he forgot to record any number and then had to cover his arse? The more recent MH370 debacle is a good example how a series of lies, misinterpretations and butt covering can lose a large aircraft – this case is far smaller scale and only needs a few white lies to create a totally different situation to what happened). Basically, we know very little for certain, but we have deduced a reasonable scenario which on the balance of probability explains a lot of what happened those days – just without the level of detail we want. We have no name, we have no identity. Without them, we can only speculate what SM was doing in Adelaide (or at Somerton). And we’re really good at the speculation – there’s a bout 10 different (relatively plausible) scenarios floating around (and a couple less plausible ones).
Are we certain Jestyn knew SM?
We have the curious reaction when she was shown the bust. Personally, I think this suggests she knew OF him, but didn’t necessarily know him (and I could also believe that she expected to see someone else, and that surprised her). It is sort of worth noting that her reaction is according to 2 people present (although they both said it at different times, and the memory is easily influenced by what other people say – and the reactions are described somewhat differently). I think a lot is read into the reaction, but I could quite easily explain it away (at least to some degree). For me the woman at the cemetery is more interesting (or at least a massive missed opportunity) – but there’s nothing to say it was Jestyn either….
Are we certain SM is her son Robin’s biological father or any relation at all?
Not even close to certain. Speculation of the highest degree, based around ears, I think.
Are we certain Robin is Rachel Egan’s biological father?
I assume so, but have never really followed that line at all.
Are we certain SM was in Adelaide to meet Jestyn or Prosper?
Not really. There’s some handy connections (the phone number, Jestyn’s reaction) and some more vague speculation (the unused train ticket to Henley Beach where Prosper had a house or property + the bus to Glenelg where they lived), but as I say little assumptions can quickly send us way off course. Of course, it’s also entirely possible that SM either lived in Adelaide (with no acquaintances) or was in Adelaide for other reasons and happened to run into them at some stage. IMO, the more theories lean toward government and military secrets the less I can see the Jestyn and/or Prosper connections. They don’t strike me as “normal” enough people to be spies (Prosper’s dealings are way too public (and dodgy, by the sounds)). Maybe Hollywood has shaped my perception of what a spy should look like (and maybe the fact that I dismiss them as likely spies shows that they could have been), but I struggle to see it…
I suspect there may have been involvement between SM and this family, however I’d lean more toward it being business than pleasure.
2c
Milongal; Thank you for the responses. Do you support or oppose exhuming the body to do a DNA test?
TBH I don’t really see the point – but perhaps I come from a strange angle. Firstly someone has to bear the cost of an exhumation (and I don’t think that should be the State Govt), and secondly, even if someone raised the funds for it (as DA might have? TBH I haven’t really followed much of his stuff, other than occasionally ending up on a Uni of Adelaide Electrical Engineering page when I’m googling) I don’t really see the justification. To me, any research into SM (or indeed any other long-unsolved mystery) is primarily for our own edification and doesn’t really benefit anyone.
It’s possible there is a family who knows stuff but doesn’t want publicity – who stand to be offended/involved by people digging up their dead. I guess I don’t really see what it gains (as I said earlier, I think we all have an interest in an identification, but it’s not really for any greater good). Even if some of the conspiratorial theories about body switches were demonstrated to be likely, I’m not really sure what digging a body up would do (other than potentially prove it).
I’d probably describe myself as fairly apathetic to the idea – I definitely don’t support it, but I wouldn’t lobby against it either. It may answer some questions, or it may create a lot more (as seems to happen all too often in this case). It does, however, sort of lead to an interesting question – at what point do we consider this to be solved? Does knowing who SM was (as in name and family) appease us, or do we need more? In many respects, I’m far more interested in how/why he ended up dying at Somerton Beach (or how his body ended up there) than the specifics of his heritage (and while knowing who he was might help a little toward tracing his movements, it also might not. Even if Robyn was an illegitimate son he fathered, that only connects him to Jestyn who we sort of already connect him to – and it still may not tell us who he is).
Totally off topic, this morning as I waited for a bus it occurred to me (as may have been discussed to some degree) that we can’t really connect SM to the train station. Let’s forget about the suitcase for a second (even if it was his, or linked to him, there’s nothing to say HE left it at the station). His personal belongings are difficult to resolve. He had spent money on 2 tickets (and possibly a pasty), yet had no wallet and no money (pretty unusual to have planned far enough ahead to know that you carry exact change for 2 tickets (at least 1 unused – Wiki insists that the bus ticket could not be proven to be used, although my understanding is that it was linked to a series that was sold by a conductor on board) and a pasty – it’s possible to use up the money exactly without pre-planning (eg that’s why he had a pasty not a pie, or something) but it deserves attention. Of course, someone going to the beach wouldn’t necessarily need a wallet – but he was hardly dressed for the beach. So someone took the wallet – nothing particularly unlikely in that…except the unused Train ticket. Surely a train ticket is something you put in your wallet if you pre-purchase, to me it doesn’t seem like something you thrust into your pocket if you intend to use it (and had purchased it some time before travel). So the presence of the unused ticket in his pockets and the absence of any money seem to ask a lot of questions – in fact it’s almost suggestive of (at least the train ticket) having been deliberately planted, and at that point we have to question all the belongings in the pockets. These days, there’s a 2 hour transfer on Adelaide public transport. I don’t know whether that would have been the case back then (certainly rail and bus ticketing were independent then, but not sure whether an MTT bus ticket might have been valid for transfers on any MTT service), however for whatever reason he also kept this used bus ticket (ok, that one’s easier to explain away – people do that (although the buses used to have a “used ticket” bin by the centre door – and the old buses used to have signs “please exit via centre door” (NB: When I lived in Canberra I used to get confused because rear doors were only used at interchanges – even in artics, so you almost always alighted by the front door)). So these two tickets which tie SM to the railway station (the bus one was believed to have been the 6th of 9(?) sold between the railway station and the corner of West and South Tce. I don’t really know what the routes were like back then, however I know West and South is identifiable as a Section change (with the entire city square mile being 1 section). The insistence “between railway station and” to me suggests the bus cut in at the railway station (ie that was it’s first stop), because if it had travelled the length of North Tce as they do now then the ticket could have been bought anywhere on that stretch (not knowing public transport of that era, I suppose there’s a possibility that cross-town routes changed number at KW St (ie the railway station), but I think that’s unlikely because it would make a lot more sense to change route number as you enter the city (as they do now)). Certainly I would think back then the Railway Station would be the busiest stop between there and Anzac Highway, so 6th ticket is quite plausibly sold there).
Sorry that drifted a long way. The tickets bug me – and to me at least one of them seems to be planted (so why not both). This in turn means that there is no direct link between SM and the railway station that day (well, other than that pesky suitcase – for which he didn’t have a stub? – this possibly strengthens the idea that his wallet was stolen; or that he didn’t deposit the suitcase there) – and all the speculation about him going to the baths (for which he didn’t have a ticket?) starts to get a little flaky. Of course, once we start to get into evidence planting we’re suddenly getting into conspiratorial territories where I don’t like to go. Not that it implies government involvement (which I’ve read in a few places was confirmed at some stage – although only by descendents of Jestyn (who likely wouldn’t know), not people directly involved at the time), but it does imply a more organised (even pre-meditated if you think about the tickets had to be purchased that morning) murder rather than an opportunistic one…
Alternatively, perhaps the perpetrator(s) were looking for something in the wallet. Perhaps there they found one or both tickets and left them. So perhaps we can explain the absence of a wallet and the presence of the tickets without evidence planting. But what were they looking for then? If you’re looking for money you only need open a wallet, not take anything out (and if you want money and have killed someone you’d likely take the wallet and look at it later). Were they (for whatever inexplicable reason) looking for the Tamam Shud fragment? Was there something else they wanted (possibly which they found)?
Once again we just raise more questions than we answer….
IMO, this case will be solved when, if at all possible; A) Somerton Man has been positively identified. B) The manner and cause of death has been determined. C) If this was a homicide, a person of interest has been identified. As to who should pay for the exhumation; IMO the government, that is, the tax-payers of South Australia should. Why? Because that’s what governments are supposed to do.
Not to play devil’s advocate but….
A) What do you consider “positive identification” – is a name enough, or do we actually need to understand his “place in the world” (for lack of a better term)? There’s been plenty people buried (with name and all) where noone really knew their real identity (in the early 90’s I remember someone from a church I was going to at the time being found dead. No relatives could be found, and noone claimed the body. I can’t remember whether he was given a pauper’s funeral or whether someone within the church funded the funeral, and he was buried under the name everyone there had known him by – but from memory there was some question as to whether that was actually his real name.
B) I suspect this will never be anything but speculation – we might refine some of the knowledge we have now, but I think we’ll never categorically know (that is, if we don’t trust the current “official” cause of death (poisoning by digitalis ) why would we trust another? I think we could (but not necessarily will) get a much clearer picture on how he came to be poisoned, and perhaps by whom and I suppose that might make the cause clearer too….
C) I don’t particularly see that there’s anything in the public interest to be gained through exhumation, and disagree the burden should be on the taxpayer (that is, I don’t see that the state or the people in the state actually achieve anything by it). That said, there are probably plenty of examples of money worse spent in the state and (I’d imagine) an exhumation would be relatively cheap in comparison. I also don’t think (from a government point of view) that closing a 70 year old cold case is all that important.
WARNING: Rant ahead….
This case is interesting (read: weird) to us because there’s an unknown element and any hint of the mysterious brings out the Sherlock in all of us. But just because we have a academic (used very loosely) interest, doesn’t really mean it means anything to the state. I guess the pragmatist in me asks what would we gain through an exhumation and who would that gain benefit? I tend to think whoever benefits can chip in the coin – especially since if there is an identity to be found through exhumation it was suppressed by relatives of the people now demanding the state allow them identification (that is, if SM is Robin’s dad and Jestyn knew he was (or even could have been) then she had plenty of chance to say so (either officially or to others in the family quietly) – if her descendants now want to know they either need to pester relatives who might have been told, or cough up the dough).
2c
Milongal: Thank you for your responses. I assume Nick feels the same way. I guess this mystery this is fated to go unsolved.
Bumpkin: not for the first time (and hopefully not for the last), I see the Somerton Man evidential landscape completely differently from everyone else, and am highly optimistic we will make progress before very long. 🙂
Nick; without a DNA test, how will we ever know for sure?
Bumpkin: there are a millions other ways to be sure, DNA is but one path of many that stand a chance of steering us in the right direction.
At the moment Gordon is going interesting directions. He still hasn’t convinced me that the direction he’s going is related to SM (mainly because I can only really see hints of microcode on the “bank” notes, not in most of the other places they’re claiming it – and they seem to have found an incredible amount of “microcode” but remarkably haven’t been able to read most of it), but there’s certainly some interesting stuff there irrespective.
trademark digression….
IMO it all still comes back to what we consider to be “solved”. Does knowing a name mean we’ve “solved” it? I can’t help but think that it will never be conclusively “solved” – or at least no matter what the evidence, there will always be people who read it differently, or insist that there’s some more complicated conspiracy going on. Personally I think things will turn out to be (relatively) mundane. In particular, claims that higher authorities were suppressing the investigation don’t really make sense to me – AFAIK (I think I read it somewhere) this was the first time a “John Doe” was embalmed in SA – hardly the sort of thing that would happen when a higher authority wants the “John Doe” forgotten, inaccessible and unsolvable IMHO. Further, the whole Rubaiyat doesn’t fit in with suppression – even if the fragment is found by lower authorities unaware of the higher authority interest, the twists beyond that (eg the conveniently (so conveniently people speculate it’s an obvious plant) found rubaiyat book) is totally unnecessary (and therefore unlikely to be deliberate).
To me (almost) every “flag” that there was some higher authority at work are actually strong indications of the opposite – while they may appear to deliberately confuse the investigation, they are totally unnecessary and only serve to promote interest in what would otherwise have become a soon forgotten “suspicious death” – and that’s surely the opposite of what the higher authority would want. Dead “John Doe’s” are easily forgotten if investigation can go nowhere – but this case seemed to throw up more and more avenues of inquiry over time…which is really the main reason some of us are interested in it today.
milongal: is there anything vaguely connected to the Somerton Man that hasn’t yet had microcode ‘detected’ on it?
Oh, and today the shiny shoes bother me. There was polish in the suitcase left at the station, but that couldn’t have been used after the suitcase was checked in. So at a minimum (assuming he shined his shoes immediately before checking the case in) we’ve walked from the station to the bus-stop (this was before the underpass and escalators/elevators obviously, so that’s a (relatively steep) flight of stairs to North Tce, then crossing North Tce (I *assume* the bus-stop is where W1is now (outside the Strathmore hotel (I had in my head that there used to be some other Strath* (Strathmont??) in the city, but google suggests I’m just crazy)….there did used to be a stop West of that outside the hotel there (Stamford Plaza?) and another one East (where EDS (probably HP now) House is now) – and there’s nothing to say he boarded anywhere near the station either (other than potentially time constraints). The old buses would have had fairly steep steps in them too (a whole 2 of them to get on), and it’s often hard not to kick stuff under the seat in the bus). Then as far as I can tell, the closest the St Leonard’s bus came to Glenelg is the corner of Adelphi Tce and Anzac Hwy (there is a bus stop on Adelphi Tce today, and there is also 100m or so West of it on Anzac Hwy) – but that’s somewhere in the order of 2km walking (about 30 minutes), over terrain that may have included unsealed roads and paddocks back then). And given that was AM that was only the beginning of his day…and he’s already had plenty of opportunity to scuff up his shoes…
The comment about the shoes being unusually unscuffed is (to me) odd – especially when they say something like “for someone who had walked around the beach all day”. Most Adelaide beaches (like all beaches?) have 2 different textures of sand – soft dry sand closer to land, and compacted, harder, wet sand closer to the sea. The softer stuff is hard to walk in, and gets into your shoes, but I’m not sure it would scuff them any, and the harder stuff tends to stay put (unless you actually walk really close to the water where you might sink in a little). As such, I’m surprised they talk about the (absence of) scuffing in relation to the beach as opposed to the rest of his travels that day….
I sort of think if we can explain some of the apparent anomalies in the small scale, the bigger picture might start to come into focus….
Nick and milongal; Thank you for your responses. Re: DNA, I must respectively disagree.
Nick; Unless their is a major breakthrough in the case, I have nothing else to contribute. Bumpkin
@Nick: Well, I’m waiting for the bus and train tickets to surface – they’d surely be good candidates for some microwriting, wouldn’t they?
Of course my favourite so far is on the cover of GF’s book….
As you have likely seen, the blogspot site has published a SAPol document from 1959 summarising the case….
there’s 2 things (other than the absence of microcode) that strike me as interesting about the document:
1) It’s purpose is the investigation of a possible kiwi connection
2) the layout of the code in the document (each line has been split in 2 inconsistently) and some of the letters are wrong
Regarding #2 above:
The first ‘D’ on line 2 is the first ‘B’ on line one in the picture that normally
circulates (this I would otherwise dismiss as a mistake in transcription).
All the M/Ws appear to be interepreted as ‘M’ (which TBH was my original instinct)
The ‘W’ in line 4 of the transcript is clearly an ‘N’ in line 2 of the ‘original’ (W and N are nowhere near each other on a typewriter, and there is little ambiguity if it was transcribed off the code page as we see it today (I also think the ‘D’ could be a ‘P’)
The lines are split roughly in half, however line one and 4 is split smaller half then larger half, lines 2 and three are larger half then smaller half – and there’s no apparent reason to split the lines – there is a lot of room on that page to have transcribed them in the same line lengths (there is hints of spaces at some of those breaks, I suppose (definitely line 3) – but to me the flourish on the AB at the end (and the length of that line) would indicate a signature…which is far less subtle than changing spaces in the text….
So….The code potentially looks (to a suspicious and conspiratorial mind) that the code was transcribed by someone who had some idea of how it should be laid out. While I struggle to convince myself that there is anything more than the mundane explanation (someone just arbitrarily split the lines and made some mistakes in transcription), it bothers me rather a lot – at the very least I think it shows how the police were thinking about the code at the time….
Totally randomly, it also occurred to me while reading that letter that if ‘KEANE’ were printed (rather than written with a texta) and you only had one of each letter it would become ‘KEAN’ unless you were willing to print twice. In fact I say printed, but the bit that got my attention was that (the laundry bag at least) was STAMPED according to the document. (Although as I think I’ve said before I think Kean(e) is somewhat irrelevant…..it is either unrelated or was put there as a smokescreen – in which case it’s relatively useless too).
I’d say, by the look of it, that Gordon Cramer is a lot further on than you are, milongal.
Petebowes: if only we could gauge our distance from the truth by counting the number of words written. Only in that world, in my opinion, is Gordon making progress.
You’ve got more than a few of your own written down here.
Petebowes: you’ve written a lot yourself, even if you have taken it all down a few times. 😐
After years of research you are still in the same place you started, not a position to judge in my view, so perhaps you could consider a hard pruning.
@pete – There’s no doubt he’s a lot further than I am. I’m just not certain he’s further in the right direction. There’s certainly aspects of his research that are very interesting, and he (and Clive) certainly seem to have researched their angle very thoroughly. I’m just not convinced it ties together with SM quite as well as he asserts….
But who knows, he may yet prove me wrong.
petebowes: as far as the Somerton Man goes, you clearly have not the faintest inkling of what I’ve been researching over the past couple of years, nor how far I’ve got with it. Which is good.
If I say that it includes about as much microcode as can be found between my toes, that’s probably not giving too much away, though.
I remember you telling the Americans who wanted you in their podcast that you had something sensational coming up and couldn’t spare the time for the ten minute interview, that was six months ago.
Promises are one thing, delivery is another.
Milongal: What “blog spot” are you referring to?
Pete bowes: I was very close to posting my Somerton Man research around then, but lost interest thanks to the intensely personal attacks I was receiving on a regular basis.
But you’ve pruned all that from your site, so your conscience is presumably clean now.
You let Chloe loose … how convenient of you to forget the poor handicapped schoolgirl and her infamous accusations on this site. That was very poor of you Nick, and permanently fractured our online friendship.
Pete bowes: what I saw was a series of posts made through a proxy within 50 or so metres of a Children’s support centre. You published the sender’s IP addresses and email address, and promptly got trolled by someone else.
If you ever had any proof the original sender was a troll, you never shared it.
You posted lies.
With respect to your readers, who must be as sick of this as I am, goodbye.
peteb: by openly publishing (what still seems to me to be, as I can see not an iota of proof otherwise) a handicapped minor’s email address on your blog, you acted irresponsibly and exposed her to all manner of trolling attacks.
And even now you continue (a) to protest your innocence in the matter, (b) to blame other people (OK, specifically me) for your personal mistakes of judgment, and (c) to flounce off when discussion doesn’t go the way you would like it to.
I reiterate (for the nth time), if you have the tiniest piece of proof that demonstrates that she is the troll you say she is, please feel free to share. Otherwise it just looks as though you made a series of errors of judgment you’d in retrospect rather were someone else’s fault.
Nick; For the life of me, I don’t understand why anybody would ever troll anybody. Especially over a case that is almost 68 years old and is of limited interest to the general public. Don’t people have anything better to do with their lives?
@Bumpkin: Gordon Cramer – tamamshud dot blogspot dot com
@Bumpkin re trolls: This case seems to bring out the worst in a lot of people. There’s been a whole host of trolls all with their own agenda (usually some strange idea that they would gain some sort of infamy being directly connected to the case) – so much so it’s often difficult to gauge who is and who isn’t a troll.
There’s a(n increasing) number of places online where the case is discussed (and in each of them some of the discussion turns nasty). IMO, they can sort of be sumarised by these 4 (+ anemptyglass which is briefly mentioned below):
1) Professor Derek Abbott – a few years ago Prof Abbott (a professor at the school of Electrical Engineering at Uni of Adelaide) had some post-grads use the case for their project – I’m not sure the EE angle, but I think there was a Math angle analysing the code. I don’t really know whether his interest in the case came before that, but somewhere along the way he decided his wife was directly related and an exhumation was necessary. His site is pretty good for stating the original known facts of the case (although some of them seem to contradict across different pages – but that happens on all sites). I haven’t spent loads of time on his site, but I have found it the easiest place to find itemised lists of SM’s possessions and the like (Although anemptyglass has become a very good resource bringing together a lot of the facts and theories into a wiki-like site – I’m not certain, but I think the person running that originally posted a lot of ideas here).
2) This site: (as you will have noticed) SM is not Nick’s primary interest, but at different times he has posted loads of information/research/speculation in quick succession. Personally, I like that on this site there’s a reasonably open mind that “anything is possible”, but with a lean toward “Occam’s Razor” (ie we don’t need elaborate spy conspiracies to explain this). This site has attracted a lot of fights, trolls and other interesting stuff – ironically often caused when bloggers from the other sites visit. I like the ideas on this site (asnd to me the Fred Pruzinski connection still makes a lot of sense), I get disappointed when Nick focuses on his true love too much (the Voynich Manuscript) and we go months without an SM blog (but in the current climate any post would likely just stir up some fireworks)
3) Gordon Cramer’s site (tamamshud) which originally claimed to be more “properly” investigative than any other (he’s an ex-policeman from the UK, I think) and has a disclaimer at the top about an American ex-intelligence group who GC is apparently a part of (I actually had a look, and it didn’t appear membership was too difficult for non-American members – it included 1 question “are you willing to pay the yearly subscription?”). IMO this disclaimer (and the connection to this group) is a deliberate attempt to legitimise his site over all others. The comments on his site can be quite interesting, but often seem to be regular groupies whose best contribution is “wow, I wish we were awesome, because you’re right”). Sometime in the last year or two, it started to focus on some “microwriting” that was claimed to be visible (I’m very skeptical of it for lots of reasons, not least because I don’t think there’s a satisfactory explanation of how it could be on any of the current pictures of the code page that we have – but I could (and have) spend a lot of time arguing about that). This soon involved Gerry Feltus (whose book is considered by all the researchers I’ve mentioned to be an authoritative version of the state of affairs before they started researching their way) – and GC claimed there was microwriting on the cover of his book (and that some GF references proved he knew about the presence of this alleged microcode). More recently (but still based on the microcode) GC has drifted to a specific group of immigrants, one of whom happened to be poisoned in Adelaide around the same time as SM. The research into that group is certainly interesting, however for now I still think the link back to SM is hazy at best (but I’m not prepared to make the call that he’s definitely barking up the wring tree). I sort of get a feeling that he might stumble across the right identity, but not for the right reasons.
4) Pete’s site (tomsbytwo). I find this site a little ironic. Pete is a fiction writer, writing a fictionalised story around SM, but is quick to accuse other people of making things up or not fact-checking properly. I originally found his site to be interesting, but found he was quick to engage people who disagreed with him and try to shut them down (sometimes quite agressively). He also seems to have his little troupe of supporters, however if you’re looking for facts around the case I’m not sure his is the best site to go to, simply because it deals in fiction. He also prominently posts here and on GC’s site….
I’m one of the mad people who likes to post here (largely because I feel GC has blinkers once he comes up with an idea, and PB comes across as a bit abrasive)….but I’m sure some people enjoy the other sites too. To each their own, eh?
Thanks Milongal, I’m slowly maturing with age and finding people easier to forgive.
.. sound of door slowly closing again.
Milongal
I get disappointed when Nick focuses on on the Somerton man for posts on end, and we go months without a post about the Voynich Manuscript,
– You know Aesop’s fable? of the man, the boy and the donkey?
Diane: I wish the donkey hadn’t died (in many versions). 😐
Nick,
I wish they’d had two donkeys.. or some ear-plugs.
🙂
Diane: I wish they’d had the courage of their convictions not to listen to the well-meaning (but contradictory) advice of others. 😉
Milongal; Thank you for the responses and info. I, too, like this site the best, probably because Nick seems like a normal person and doesn’t have an ax to grind. By that, I mean, no pet theories. I have no interest in the Voynich Manuscript or any of Nick’s other passions. I wait, sometimes for weeks, for a SM update. You mentioned “empty glass.” What is that? Thank you.
http://anemptyglass.wikia.com/wiki/Anemptyglass_Wikia
@Diane: lol – sorry, didn’t mean that as a criticism of Nick (or the site).
Adelaide papers today featuring the Prof.
Not sure it’s new news, but they’re reporting that the DNA points strongly to East Coast USA origin.
Does that nix any current theories?
After extensive research on my ‘organist’ theory I have come to the conclusion that that has become a dead end. However, looking further into the suitcase contents I tried to find the origin of the items. I have found the tie to be a very particular one.
http://hansensclothing.com/kings-dragoon-guards-british-regimental-tie-by-robert-talbott/
I have found the exact same tie, different manufacturers but always with the ‘(king/queen) dragoon-guards-regimental-tie’ description. That is a cavalry regiment of the British Army that existed in many shapes and forms all over the world. If the SM belonged to this regiment, the items such as the stencil brush could have been his gun cleaning tools. It would also explain his good physical shape, the calve muscles (horseriding) and even the one collar stud, as the guards had detachable collars. As the army is very firm on shoe polishing and neatness that would also explain some known facts on the SM. Anyone interested in further exploring this?
Has anyone researched the suitcase label? Would A48605 be a traveling label or is it a label police gave to evidence? Is it possible that the label is in fact a date, that would be 1948, 6th of mei of 5th of june?
Just to throw in a consideration which occurred to me by way of idle association a couple of days ago. I found no better place for that than this thread. 🙂
It is about that curios development of the man’s legs. It’s being said it was characteristic for a runner or a dancer. What about horse riding? I mean cavalry, of course.
Anton: it has always struck me that this is likely to be a “one way” piece of evidence, that may make sense in retrospect (once we know who he was) but points in far too many vague directions simultaneously to be useful now. :-/
Just a question. Has there been any photos of his hands. If he was a smoker he would have discolouration on two fingers. If not he did not smoke.
Most smokers have an indent on their lip.
Just found the answer. Was trying to work out a heavy smoker always has lighter/matches and smokes on them.
I got this: Abroad inmate ca(q)ao (island)…also…from other logic…:Embargo Slip….
much accurate…maybe is coco island (prison)….
Akhenaton 1611: Prison Island, Cocos-Keeling group (Aust), possible transit stop for m.v. Tirranna on outward route Melb. to Mombasa with garrison supplies. Did passenger Mikkelsen have another lucky escape?
Nick; Well another year has come and gone. Are we any closer to ID’ing the SM today, than a year ago? I think not. Do you still oppose an exhumation?
Don’t know what the Safpol property room was like in ’48 but I can tell you that in the seventies if one of the lads had a special date and needed some good kit, anything in the nature of wearing apparel could be ‘borrowed’ as long as it was not sealed and labelled as not for removal, and so long a it was signed for, then later returned clean and or polished. Of course the other thing about SM’s spit shined size nine bespokes is that they could have been schmicked-up for his big day at West Terrace and if I’m not mistaken it was some months after his confinement that Big Jack C. or Doc. Dwyer first commented on them. The only troubling aspect of this proposition is that I like most others are still trying to establish for sure that he had two pairs ie one for his funeral and a second pair for Mr. Littlemore’s event of ’78, if not then DA will probably find him bare footed. Speaking of DA is it true that the ‘some one who came knocking’ actually came to the house at Mentone and not Glenelg as I have always been led to believe, not so according to the prof’s blog 2 yrs & 3 myths back. According to wiki’s mostly accurate site it stated that the visitor called in late ’48 which would obviously support my held belief; were there two people seeking our Jessica at to different times & places. Any takers.
I will try to solve the cipher. I will have paper, pencil, google translate, and my autistic brain to solve it.
Here’s a “solution” to the cipher I’d not seen before…..of course, the suicide idea doesn’t sit well for a good number of reasons, nonetheless.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=7937871 [then jump to page 169 -Nick-]
NB: I was reading some John Ruffles (the postman who in 1977 was convinced SM could have been a spy – although he seemed reluctant to say more than “could have” and “well it’s possible”). There’s certainly an interesting (and plausible) digression to Harry Gold meeting other spies using pages from books (that said, I’m not convinced the “code” itself is relevant – to me it doesn’t really make sense as anything other than a love poem acrostic (or similar))
Autism: Good luck with your quest and don’t worry that many others have failed because with your unique autistic talents you may see things in a perspective that others cannot. Don’t feel so bad if it doesn’t work out for you because there is another cipher on this very site that we believe may be right down your alley and no one can make head nor tail out of it. The person who devised it was probably autistic and thereby much smarter in his own unique way than any of us who are obviously not equipped mentally to work out the logic. It’s the Ricky McCormick enigma and comprises two sets of apparently undeciperable sheets of his own written words that his mother refers to as ‘bird scratch marks’. If you happen to have some friends at your special school or workplace then perhaps you could all get involved with it as a joint project. Anyway good luck and all the best for ’17
Ditto that on the Voynich Manuscript .. the guy who thought that up must have supped on every hallucination mentioned in Timothy Leary’s diary.
Happy New Year John Sanders, and you Bids … here’s to notoriety.
Pete: Fair go mate, talk about giving a dog a bad name. Nick: 19 to go and give us your best shots, I’m just an old counter puncher at heart and relish any fair challenge; your a good sport. As for you Gordon & Clive, something very very big is going down, but fifty years too late to help our old buddy on the beach. Thanks Misca, Byron, Milongal Anors. for keeping me honest; much appreciated and a huge happy to all you New Year Muppets for 2017. PS. o.k. NP I concede it wasn’t a Minx, it was a Humber Super Snipe. Cheers ‘hic’ everybody. js
1ST LINE – MALE – RECESSIVE GENE – OAB, AB D…. USED IN GENOMIC DNA TESTING
3RD LINE -NO “TB“(AS IN TIBCULOSIS) / MP (MALARIA) AND NEGATIVE ETP-LEUKEMIA/LYMPHOMA..
4TH LINE – ML/ABO IS A BLOOD GROUP AND GENETIC MARKER WITHIN THE STUDY AND DETECTION OF DISEASE… O IS THE ONLY BLOOD GROUP THAT CAN BE TRANSFUSED TO ALL BLOOD TYPES. A1AQC IS ALSO A BLOOD TEST FOR INHERITED GENETIC DEFICIENCIES IN INFANTS…ALONG WITH OLDER MEN , OVER 40, SUFFERING FROM EMPHYSEMA, ASSOCIATED WITH SMOKING, ALONG THE SMALL-ANGLE PICTOGRAPH INDICATING IT’S ON THE LOW END ( RESULT OF THE TESTING )
5TH LINE – TTM IS A VIRUS ASSOCIATED WITH HEPATITUS, TSA TESTS FOR TUMOR SPECIFIC ANTIGENS IN THE DETECTION OF CANCER, MS – MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS , TGAB – THYROGLOBULIN AND THYROGLOBULIN ANTIBODY.
My Rage Goes On About Being A Bad Doctor
My Life Is A Damn Lie
Will The Bad In Me Paint A Not Exactly True Picture
My Life Is A Bad Omen As I Am Quite Sure
I Thought That My Training Should Alter My State To Going All Bad
No one recognized him due to him being a WOMAN DOCTOR by day. The reason that Jestyn was so taken aback and almost fainted was that she recognized HIM/HER as a Colleague or Lover perhaps. The numbers were bed numbers of people that were assassinated the same way he was, “UNTRACEABLE”! His feet and legs were that of a WOMAN who was a dancer or wore HIGH HEELS most of the time. Apparently he was leaving and was discovered by someone unknown and used the same cocktail on him that he used on the others. He was a PSYCHO! Just like in the MOVIE… I suggested they look for a missing woman Doctor at the hospital that Jestyn worked in. No one recognized him as a MAN.
Oh, I already sent this to the Smithsonian…
There is a street name in this code. (CQPENRD )this is( SECU PEN ROAD) and he was 47 years of age.
IT’S A LIST FOR INFO ON THE WAR
WR GO ABA BAD
ML IA OI
WT BI MP AN ET P
X
ML IA BO AI AQC
ITT MT SAM STG AB
WR weapon radius
GO General Order
ABA Allotment/Bond Authorization
ABD airbase defense
ML Missile Launch
IA Information Attack
OI operating instruction
WT warping tug
BI battle injury
MP Mission Profile
AN Army-Navy
ET Elapsed Time
P parallel pattern; priority
X initial position error
ML Missile Launch
AI area of interest
BO Battle Orders
AI Air Interdiction
AQC Aircraft Qualification
ITT International Telephone and Telegraph
MT Minot
SAM special airlift mission
STG Special Tactics Group
AB Air Base
Wagner Richard Gravestone Oberst Accoutrements Box Andersons Bay Dunedin.
Mortality Links Inplace AAP Obituaries Immemorial.
W/less Treatise’ Blurts Intercepts Microfilm Plant Adler King Edward tracing pencils.
M/script Located Insitu Ashes Box 0+ Adelaide Interments Adventist Quaker Coptic.
Inst.Tele. Trans. Mutual Trustees Surrogate Alan Marshall Solicitor T & G Adelaide.
Line 3 may refer.. Tabulated Axis Military Assetts Materiel & Series Hagelar Ultra Decryption or TAMAM SHUD for short.
Line 4 may refer.. Teutonic Aryan Masters Abridged Manifesto. Serving Humanity & Unilateral Detente or TAMAM SHUD for short.
0+ may refer to a burial plot with a slanted tee to Identify correct site.
Just another stab in the dark and probably not as clever as the original but nobody has come up with The Final Solution to the best of my knowledge.
Missed Branch after T & G Adelaide, and as usual I’ve included the underlined troublesome second line mainly because I always thought it to be of some reference.
Even simpler than an acrostic, perhaps? Furtive writing the first initial of male hospital patients at the time, as mnemonic. Using the book as backing and disguise whilst doing rounds along ward corridor explains the irregular handwriting. Crossed then re-introduced line indicates change of mind with new patients being inserted at a later date.
Eamon: Works OK for me and it may well have been the confused thoughts of a demented mind trying to put things together whilst his ability to cope unravels. Those hospitals must have been a mad house literally with POWs and war neurosis cases landing on their doorstep towards the end of ’45 and through ’46. It can be reasonably implied that both patients as well as their carers might have been under the same mental strains and there are grounds to suggest that such people could be influenced and taken advantage of by others in the prevailing unusual circumstances for nefarious purposes such as espionage or criminal doings. One case in point did involve a hospital worker whose company was actively engaged printing certain promotional literature for the Victorian communist party from 1942 and who knows what else he and possible associates could have been up to.
I just started reading about this case today but it is fascinating. A few quick questions/ comments. For one thing I didn’t know where Adalaide is located in Australia so I read up on it and saw that much of the Australian military is located in the area. Is there anything that would indicate a U.S. spy being there at the time? Recent DNA testing indicates he may be from Virginia, which was the home of the OSS and War Department during WW II. A spy would clearly explain why no one knew him or reported him missing. The theory about him being a transvestite is a little bizarre but these people are known to use lockers and suitcases in which to hide their double lives. Just wondering and thanks.
Bric: I might have to stand corrected but whilst Adelaide was a hub for military activities during ww2 and through the cold war era with its rocketry, atom tests etc. that sort of activity has gone by the wayside in recent years. As for the Virginian Jefferson/Randolph connection, ever since DNA’s emergence as a means of back checking genealogy, everyone seems to have their dynastic routes tied into those families, black, white and native american as well, so I guess that could also work with Somerton Man. With regards to the other query, suggest you check out ‘Tamam Shud Return from the abyss’, John Alexander Scott Coutes (john Willie), Bizarre and London Life mags from the ’30s/40s era.
Wondering whether any of you old hands ever came across Eugene (possibly not his real name), the underwear road vendor from Marseilles, who jumped ship in both Perie and Port Adelaide in the early ’20s. He had attempted suicide some years later whilst on the road in Adelaide, was prosecuted for it, and with a slap on the (other) wrist for lack of resoursfulness, he promptly disappeared forever it seems….Nice to have Barry Traish looking in on things once again and we can only hope that he visits with us to impart some if his intuitive logic, objectivity and charismatic nonchalance, for which he is apparently unequaled.
On November 7th 2013 I said (2012 ADVENT CALENDAR DAY #3: “THE BOXALL CODE”…”
“In about 2001, just after the story in the Weekend Australian on Somerton Man (“The man with no name” Janet Fife-Yeomans), a retired policemen put out an inquiry asking for anyone with any information to contact him. He had mentioned that most of the SA police files were missing. I did a quick check of the NAA system and located three files so I contacted the policeman and gave him the details of these files. Unfortunately I have lost many of my records and all of this is from memory.
I seem to remember that this policeman said he was doing work for the SA police investigating old cases.
I think that the descriptions of the files indicated that they were SA police files, so it is possible that the SA police asked for them back. I think the policeman had a Scottish surname, possibly McDonald or McIntyre. It wasn’t Gerry Feltus.
Incidentally, in the follow up generated by the Fife-Yeomans’ article somebody mentioned that some of SMs dental work was of Eastern European origin (not further explained). It might pay to go back to the Fife-Yeomans article and see what responses it generated.” (Note added: and get the precise quote concerning the dental work).
I still think that it would pay to go back and see what comments might have been published after SM articles such as Fife-Yeoman’s. I did start trawling back through the newspapers but prettier flowers were sighted, and I was diverted into all sorts of interesting information glades. I am still lost.
BD: Could it have been Ian McDougall; If so, you couldn’t have been connected with anyone more diligent and determined to get the truth, either by fair means or whatever; get in his way and he just picks up steam. If you look carefully you’ll note that he’s been checking in on one of the old team of late, I think…Then again could it have been Murray Matheson, but he was with the other mob in Canberra, or so he would like us all to believe, and definitely not someone I could recommend under any set of circumstances.
John, is this him?
The Register (Adelaide) 11th August 1926 page 12
“Frederick Eugene Azlin, a young French man, who has been four years in Australia, admitted a charge at the Adelaide Iohce Court on Tuesday, that he had at tempted to commit suicide last Saturday. He told Mr. E. M. Sabine, P.M., that his war injuries had affected his health and his mind, and he had been worried on account of being unable to work, and to pay his board……”
There appear to be three files in the NAA collection relating to this man. His surname may have been Asselin and he claimed to have been born in France 1898.
Byron, surely is and yes I’m familiar with the NAA files. Don’t believe that Asselin is relevant and I may have his family on board, looking for Granny Ailsa’s old papers. Also will endeavour to obtain photos of his son and grandson, both of whom
have service records but the former not online. Robert Glenn Azlin’s naval papers from 1968 show him as 5′ 11 with features &c right on the money. Dad, Robert Frederick Bn. 1927 may not have been eligible for active service in ww2 due to his age in 1945 but check his record by all means (he died in 1971). If your interested all the family live in Morwell under the family name Azlin. and are not related to the Asselins of N.S.W New England Region.
Byron: Permit me to try you with another one of my oldies, and maybe the Tatura lads might be interested as well. Chap’s name is Werner, a master mariner cum design artist and shoe maker who was better known as ‘Achilles’ around Sydney in the thirties. Did special orders like 204Bs perhaps, for Macnaughts of Kent and King streets, also agencies in Kiama, Forbes and Pine Creek NT., Good mate and probably a one time partner of John Willie (bizarre) and advertised in London Life fetish magazine 30s/40s era. Last heard of around 41 about the same time his mate was in camp at Woodside. Willie spent much of hs army service in Adelaide as an outpatient in Keswick Repatriation Hospital and I’m thinking he probably got to know a few of the local medicos like D’Arcy Cock whose name comes close to one adopted by him in one of his Bizarre skits, ‘Aventures of sweet Gwendonine’. Willie got discharged in late ’41 and later went to sea then settled in USA/Canada, never to return. There doesn’t appear to be any mention of his old German buddy in any of his letters and Willie died a broken man in the US in 1962 (not in the Channel Is. as is most often stated). There is a chance that Werner (last name first name?) ended up in an internment camp, then possibly on Somerton Beach, who knows.
@John better late than never….
Adelaide has 2 relatively significant military connections still today. The first is the Edinburgh Air base in the Northern Suburbs which (as well as being an active airbase) also has various Defence and Defence-related gvoenrment Agencies active there like DSTO (Defence Science and Technology Organisation) and DSD (Defence Signals Directorate). Most of what happens there is likely fairly mundane, however from time to time you hear some small rumours. It has a wiki page (if you’re interested RAAF_Base_Edinburgh) too – but AFAIK it didn’t exist in the 1940s (although the area it is in (Salisbury) used to make bombs and weapons from the early 1940s). The second significant Defence installation in Adelaide is the ASC (Australian Submarine Corporation) at Osborne (3 suburbs North of Largs Bay). This is FAR more recent (I think 1990s), but is known for producing the (wildly considered ‘dud’) Collins Class Submarines, and I think more recently is slated to build actual ships. Theoretically this is even more mundane than Edinburgh – the only ‘secrets’ there AFAIK were the propeller designs for the Subs. I remember in one of my earlier jobs delivering Pizza to there, and they’d confiscate Phones, Cameras (not that we had one – this was before smartphones) and any recording devices if they let you past security (although more often Security would just ring the staff to pick up their pizza from the gate).
Of course, in broader SA (500km from Adelaide) there is also Woomera – which was very active in the 1940/1950s and is best known for weapons testing and a shroud of secrecy. This is where spy theorists speculate SM was linked to, and I’m pretty sure remains active today – but not sure in what capacity. There’s a plethora of speculation about it on this site and elsewhere, and I’m sure you can easily find more information (some of it less reliable than other) online.
Milongal: on the contrary, I think you’ll find that all the Woomera spy speculation is exactly equally as good as each other. 🙂
Milongal: I have in the past refered to both Willie and Achilles on this site and others, but alas was unable to promote any feedback on what I felt to be good possible leads, at least worthy of further discussion, so sorry if I seem to have been remiss in updating….Yes when I replied to Bric, I was merely attempting to give a general overview on Adelaide per se with regards to its current status on defence establishments as opposed to those operating in the war years and its aftermath. I didn’t mention places like the Salisbury Weapons Research Facility or very distant Woomera Rocket Range, both of which I am most familiar, simply so as not to suggest that these places have anything to do with my perceived views on the fate of Somerton Man…I see now that I was equally remiss and should not have been so quick to steer clear of the spy theories of which I don’t substantially support.
@Nick: Exactly!
@John: I think we’re on a similar page.
Incidentally, do you know whether the Salisbury Weapons Research factory became Edinburgh, or are they relatively unrelated? According to the interwebs, Edinburgh split away from Salisbury to become a suburb in it’s own right (which struck me a little odd, because I had it in my head it was closer to Elizabeth, but googlemaps tells me I’m wrong and the both of them are a closer to each other than it feels when driving Main North Rd or Phillip Hwy)….
Sidenotes (quote Homer Simpson: “I love stories”): Someone tells me DSD is now ASD. I remember year ago having seen DSD at a career fair at University asking someone from Defence about them and what they do. “They don’t exist”, he insisted. I explained they were advertising for graduate positions. “They don’t exist”, he responded. But that was a long time ago….in fact I think even in Canberra it’s only fairly recent that that any of those secretive agencies have identifiable buildings (and I’m not suggesting that there aren’t unmarked buildings which are far more interesting) – and if you’re into conspiratorial stuff, ask a Canberran why the building between Parkes Way and Constitution Ave (the stretch between Anzac Pde and Kings Ave) took so long to construct and you’ll no doubt hear them relate how that 4-letter (3 vowel) agency needed it deeper below the ground than above the ground…
Milongal: I remember being on work details at WRE in the mid ’60s and the folks who worked there lived at Edinburgh if RAAF, or Elizabeth for the army people. My later dealings were by way of munitions/pyro transfers between MFF St Marys via RAAF Richmond in the early ’70s and the only ineresting occurrence was the theft of a crate of (inert) M36 Mills bombs from a nearby storage at RAAF Warrangaroo. With regards DSD, they were assumed (not) to have had a listening post within Kangaw barracks, Sembawang on the JB side of Singapore but guess what? It didn’t exist did it? Apparently (not) attached to an equivalent British Army sigs. unit, with corresponding RAF installation at Tanglin and others on the island and across the straits (JWS), at least through to the ’80s, you’d be hard pressed to find any likely evidence of their then presence or existence at this or any other point in time.
Milongal: As an interesting aside to my last, and possibly more relevant to our particular line of inquiry, during the last war, whilst we were engaged intercepting communications between the axis powers from our eavesdropping stations in Honkong and Singapore for instance, our more forward thinking brothers across the Tasman were doing the same, but with accent towards our allies the Russians, and with more success I might add… Col. R F B Wame, along with his RAF counterpart Coutts made a rushed trip to Singapore in late ’41 for the purpose of deactivating our installation at RAF Terror (?) Before the Nips came to town.
R F B Waik, never heard of the other chap.
@John it’s interesting you mention that the chaps across the ditch were listening to the Russians. Wasn’t the Rubaiyat a kiwi edition (or wasn’t there some kiwi connection there?).
Milongal: I think I found most of that stuff about the ‘listener’s on line under ‘Australian Naval Intelligence’ ….Corrections: Marrangaroo..HMS Terror or more likely RAF Tengah.
IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT: The Somerton Man or Tamam Sud code has an interpretation as of this week, word by word!
see: http://www.somertonmandecoded.com
Funny, I always felt that “code” was just something completely mundane, like his shopping list. 🙂 I guess prayers are fairly mundane and could well be the solution. I am in the habit of scrawling nonsensical things on paper whenever I am out and about. They are basically just to jog my memory later, or more likely, because I am too lazy to write it all out in full. An address like Jeff Adams, 1082 West Street Cnr Emery Street becomes JEFADM 1082 WSCES for instance. So my scribbles mean something to me but would be an entire mystery to anybody else.
I would like to add this in relation to Somerton Man.
A hobby of mine is the collection of Australian World War 1 and 2 militaria. In my collection I have several rather narrow, fawn ties that were standard issue to Australian soldiers, particularly those of higher rank. But I suspect any soldier could have obtained one. It was typical for the men to write their names on the inside of the ties, just as you see on the one Somerton Man is wearing.
The age of Somerton Man suggests he could have been enlisted in the Australian Army in World War 1 – a time when many men lied about their actual ages in order to enlist.
I found this man in the Australian War Memorial records and wonder if anyone has ever tried to trace him?
T Keane
Service Number: 7401
Rank: Bombardier
Unit: 14th Australian Field Artillery Battery
Conflict / Operation: First World War, 1914-1918
Recommendation: Distinguished Conduct Medal
Please see my proposed solution that I submitted on 09NOV15 and 22JAN16 . I reversed each line and solved by substitution in English . I believe that my work fits the message of the Somerton Man .
WOW: Thomas Keane MM 7401, deemed to be too old at 63 in 1948 and also a gunshot wound to the forehead would likely have left a scar, but good effort on your part. I posted almost the same as you on another place a month or so ago on a standard issue open weave ecru army tie with ‘v’ bottom as opposed to square bottom US pattern of ww2. And it certainly would have included the owners name verso which the unknowing might tend to scoff at. Pray tell where in hell do they expect to see the moniker on the soldier’s tie pin.
Thanks John. I did think this was probably old ground I was visiting, but thought I’d post the info just in case it may have been a rock left un-turned.
we could spend a lot of time on Kean[e|ic] and there are certainly some interesting candidates (including 7401 above) – and I wouldn’t dismiss people just based on age (Walsh was quite old too; and a 4 becoming a 9 on a form could change someone’s age by 5 years).
Other Keane’s I found interesting – there’s at least 2 Thomas Lawrence KEANE from WW1 (and from memory another from WW2).
There’s a Terence Henry KEANE whose file is a touch unusual. There’s a letter he penned in 1957 (he’d lost a returned servicemen’s badge and was keen to get it back for ANZAC day), but the handwriting in it seems vastly different to the handwriting when he writes or signs his name 17 years earlier (shapes of the letters totally different). I understand people’s handwriting changes, but these seem very stark changes for someone between the ages of 25 and 42 (roughly). I know people have previously found a death record for him (and the letter suggests he lived beyond 1950), but I think either there were 2 that are getting confused, or there’s some impersonation going on. The file also seems to have Army Number N25094 which is struck out in favour of NX151609 – but it occurs to me that this might have happened later when someone assumed the 1957 Keane (NX151609) was the same as N25094.
There’s also a Thomas Patrick O’KEANE – who has a very distinctive way of marking ‘K’ (which I am currently imagining bears a vague resemblence to the K on the tie) – but I can’t explain where his ‘O’ went.
There’s a good number of other T Keane’s from both wars too (some are ‘T’ second initial, others not).
Was it ever commented upon or did anyone ever give thought to the fact that somerton man was wearing neither belt nor suspender braces when found. This in an age when one or the other items would have been considered a standard feature of a gentlemen’s street apparel, especially as accessories to the kind of attire worn on the day of his demise. This could lend credence to the previously proffered suggestions that he was changed into his fancy togs and footware post mortem from a wardrobe and not Keane’s suitcase.
John Sanders: then perhaps he was no gentleman? 🙂
NP: In those days all leather belts would have been stamped or heat impressed with a makers name, and an elastisized set of braces would carry similar detail in the weft. As my mum used to say, you can always tell a true gentleman by the cut of his clobber, however she did not include a belt or braces specifically. Let’s give him the benefit of any doubts, shall we?.
John sanders: what, that he was a gentleman but someone stole his hat, his wallet, and his belt too? 😉
NP: A gentleman’s upbringing is the key, for he is bred to suffer such indignities with a proud, stoic, stiff upper lip, just so long as he’s left with the odd Kenesta or seven. Not to mention that this particular gentleman was, we can assume both totally and permanently incapacited. We also must be cognizant of the fact that a dead gentleman would tend to keep such trivial incidents to himself.
John sanders: if he was a gentleman, his Juicy Fruit chewing gum and cadged cigarette make him look like one on his uppers, circa 1948. 🙂
Wasn’t his socks missing too (or was that in the suitcase). Incidentally, the Juicy Fruit never occurred to me. If you’re a toothpick chewer, why would you carry gum (although I concede a small possibility of “substitute habit”)?
Loads of not necessarily connected speculation follows….
The idea that he didn’t dress himself is entirely plausible. The lack of hat, wallet and belt; the shiny shoes (despite, walking at least 3km if he’d been on the St Leonard’s bus); the lividity (ok, that says nothing about being changed, but it suggests he didn’t die there in that position); the lack of vomit (his clothes seem to have been relatively clean); I think NP once mentioned the (apparent) lack of any residue from steam engine soot; etc; etc….
That also means that while the clothes could be his, it’s also entirely possible that this is a clean set either belonging to someone related to his demise, or sourced quickly from charity.
This means that all bets are off (to the point it could almost (only almost) even be the toothpick chewer I so strongly resist). The link to the suitcase is in the clothing. The link to the Rubaiyat is in the clothing. The link to the Railway Station is in the clothing. Everything that links SM to anything is in the clothing.
And the dates are conveniently linked in after the fact and at high risk of confirmation bias. What if (as per some reports) the Rubaiyat wasn’t found on (or shortly after) Nov 30? What if the suitcase wasn’t left in the station on Nov 30? The tickets explain away easily enough as simply being someone else’s (even if SM didn’t take the St Leonard’s bus, it’s plausible that someone else connected travelled there on it). I think I’ve mentioned before that one of the most remarkable aspects of SM’s assumed morning is that nobody remembers him. Nobody remembers him on the bus – perhaps staring blankly out the window; perhaps absorbed in though; or reading verse from his rubaiyat; or asking where the bus goes; or nodding off; or staring at people. “The curious incident about the dog in the night”. This is someone who (according to most ‘experts’ is a stranger in town – yet noone remembers him asking which train (or bus) to catch. Noone remembers him asking for a timetable, or directions to a bus stop. It’s hard to believe he purchased the Henley ticket or caught the St Leonard’s bus. Even the idea that “but spies are that good at blending in that they’re not noticed” doesn’t really wash with me (that’s too Hollywood – I think more likely they’re good at being noticed being ordinary rather than not being noticed at all).
I’ll take a point that many of the potential witnesses were probably interviewed well after the fact (by which time memory of specifics has started to diminish), yet it’s so odd that SM just doesn’t seem to fit in (his attire at the beach screams “I don’t belong here”; he’s missing possessions that a traveller might have; etc) and yet the only people who remember noticing him is the young couple and Lyons (and they seem reluctant to categorically confirm it was the same person they saw – which in itself seems a little odd (to me that implies doubt, rather than absence of certainty – but that could be down to the police interviewers)).
Increasingly I doubt he was at the Railway Station that morning. Increasingly I think he was staying in one of the Repat homes (there’s 2 within 500m of the beach where he was found from memory – and someone at one of them claimed to have had a drink with Solomonson (Incidentally, I always hear anything with “Solomon” and think “Jewish”, but 3 seconds of googling gives it a more Scandinavian origin) at the local pub), and that he hadn’t arrived in town that morning (incidentally, that could possibly provide a boring link to the clothes – and if we accept the clothes were not necessarily his, then we have to accept that a fragment of paper so well hidden within them that trained policemen don’t immediately find it may have existed before he wore the clothes without his knowledge).
What if Jestyn didn’t know him? What if based on what she’d been told/seen she thought SM was someone else (possibly the previous owner of the clothes)? What if she prepared herself not to react when she saw a particular recognisable face that she was stunned to see a totally different face staring at her (this would likely mean she hadn’t paid much attention to the papers, I guess)? What if she thought someone (possibly related to Prosper’s doings) had ‘deserved’ it, only to see the face mask was someone else? What if she sort of knew that Prosper and his cronies had ‘offed’ someone, but seeing the face mask drove home the reality that this was a person (and not someone she knew)?
As with all SM hypotheses, the problem is that each time we have an idea for one aspect of evidence, another piece of evidence becomes inconvenient…And it doesn’t help that there’s a lot of supplementary “possible evidence” (eg: were people seen on the beach with a body that night etc, etc….).
Chico [producing ANOTHER cigar]: “I thought this cigar was in my other suit”
Groucho: “I wish you were in your other suit and your other suit was being pressed”
Chico: “Wait a minute! This IS my other suit”
or again:
Boat Passenger: “What’s the idea of putting your hands in my pocket!”
Chico: “Just a little mistake. I had a suit once. Looked just like that and for a minute I thought those were my pants.”
Boat Passenger: “How could they be your pants when I I’ve got them on!”
Chico: “Well, this suit had two pair of pants. ”
Can’t help but think it was the left-handed moths!
John Sanders makes a very valid point re the belt and braces. It is almost as if somebody took them off him after his death, or he was not wearing them in the first place. Perhaps if his trousers were tight enough he had no need for a belt. Still, it is unusual in that day and age.
But golly, there were just SO many “swaggies” (or “bag men”) in those days. Why isn’t he just one of the many hundreds who died in total obscurity throughout Australia during and following the Great Depression era?
Many people lost everything in the Great Depression, and I do mean everything, including at times their own identities. An early form of Government benefit was paid to these swagmen, but they had to keep moving from one town to another in order to claim it, and the payment was meager. The idea of Government at that time was to keep them moving so they could not congregate and so cause other social problems.
The Australian Government did not introduce full unemployment benefits until July 1945, enabling the swagmen to obtain a regular payment and to settle down if they so wished. Sadly many had grown so use to a transitory and nomadic lifestyle by that time that they either claimed the benefit haphazardly or, in some cases, not at all. Of course some form of rudimentary identification must have been necessary for one to claim the benefit, and I am sure many had long lost any form of identification. Some had fallen to booze too (which in many cases involved the dreaded methylated spirits, believe it or not!) which wiped out their brains and ultimately their lives.
My own grandmother and father told me many stories of their time in the Australian bush during the Depression era, and how afraid they were whenever the bag men wandered past their doors. Some bag men were honest and hard working and would accept a meal in return for some brief farm work. Others were thieving scoundrels. Many used assumed names. Many begged for methylated spirits, claiming they suffered from arthritis or some other malady, which, if provided, would see them wander off into the bush to drink it. They were tough times and then the war came, making things even tougher. The fact that the Somerton Man was found dead on a beach in total anonymity is really not that surprising in this social context. Australia really was not the land of “milk and honey” until at least the 1950s.
If it had not been for the oddity of the items in this particular man’s possession, I am guessing nobody would be even remembering him today.
NP: Sporting a shiny new pair of 204 bespokes and Marco Elast-o-Straps, one would be pretty game to suggest that he was on his uppers, not withstanding the gum and the botted bumper. No, he was a gentleman to be sure; perhaps even an officer & gentleman.
@WOW agree to some extent. The SM ‘mystery’ survives primarily because of the rubaiyat – which changes an otherwise mundane death into an intriguing puzzle. I keep trying to point out that we know very little. That SM’s whole 30th of Nov as we know it is a whole bunch of speculation that revolves around items in his pockets. This avenue of investigation makes sense in the original context (a dead man on the beach), but over time becomes questionable as the lividity, cause of death and even clothes/possessions are deemed uncertain.
The “assumed name” angle is sort of intriguing. We seem to have strong Scandinavian-seeming connections (from very diverse angles, some of them probably unrelated). I’d never really thought about Scandinavian emigration during and after WWII, and while Norway and Denmark were occupied it sounds like their time in the war wasn’t as hard as for other parts of Eastern Europe – so we don’t associate people fleeing there so much. Finland, by the sound of it, fared a little worse, however it sounds like they aligned more with Germany…
I guess I’m surprised there seems to have been so many Scandinavians around (even if unrelated). Mikkelsen, Solomonson, Thompsen, Mangnussen (and I’m sure others that don’t immediately leap to mind). Brit’s we’d expect a lot of in Australia, as well as at that time Poles, Balts and others from around Russia. Scandinavians I wouldn’t have expected as much.
**Disclaimer History and Geography have always been two of my least favourite subjects/topics so perhaps I’ve totally missed the point.
I thought the purpose of the “Elasto strap” was to take the place of a belt or braces? My understanding is that it is a sewn-in elastic adjustable belt. From memory SM’s shirt(s?) were described as having been taken in (what is the correct term?) around the waist and this is supported by Paul Lawson’s description of SM. I have broad shoulder and a small waist, and I can wear trousers without a belt if the waist of the trousers is smaller than the back side. Although Paul didn’t say so I take it that SM must have had well developed upper legs and a corresponding fairly muscular back side.
Very well spotted Byron, however, my comment on the Elast-o-Straps was made somewhat tongue in cheek and perhaps done as a deliberate mistake to see who was observant enough to catch it. As anyone long associated wIth SM should
be well aware of by now, and by all means correct me if I’m wrong on this point, he was said to have been wearing his Stamina trousers that particular day, and that’s the pair with the sixpence in the pocket, the pair with the belt loops and the suspenders buttons both fore and aft.
BD: “that’s not the pair with the sixpence in the pocket”, besides I seem to recall that in one of your dissertations on the Marco’s you may have pointed out that due to war shortages, the elastic fabric had to be omitted altogether; am I correct on that point?.
Milongal: There were charity places in those days, just as there are today. And just as today it is not unusual to walk into one of these places and find expensive gentleman’s attire. I have friends who frequent such places looking for the expensive brand names and they often come out with a big grin on their face, having purchased said items for a few dollars. People donated unwanted gifts and the clothing of deceased persons in those days just as they do today. Some homeless itinerants could be remarkably well dressed, for a while at least. And that could also explain the absence of a belt.
And furthermore, if he had obtained the clothing from a charity or stole them, how do we know the pieces of paper and some of the other things weren’t left in the pockets of the clothes by someone else? There are just too many “unknowns” in this mysterious case for there to ever be a solution, unless someone claims ownership of him. After this amount of time, that possibility seems very unlikely. It will always remain a mystery.
How anyone could make any sense of the bewildering number of clues is completely beyond me, it would take a genius to put it all together into a coherent and readable fiction.
Pinocchio Pete: actually, the right question is how anyone can take all the disparate strands and clues and make anything apart from fiction. :-/
Well, in the absence of fact, fiction may have to do. And if the fiction is solidly based on fact, then who’s to say one isn’t the other?
Nick: Although it is fun to ponder! 🙂
BTW, in one of my more authoritarian moods one day I wondered if the Government of any country introduced compulsory DNA tests of the population so many cold cases would be solved today. The huge database could be constantly checking and cross referencing. But of course, there is the civil rights issue to consider and I’m sure any leader who tried to introduce this “Big Brother”, Draconian measure would quickly be labelled a dictator, among other less flattering names!
Pinocchio Pete: I’m happy to say one isn’t the other, and so (normally) are you.
Unless you’ve lost interest now your book’s done.
‘allo Pete ! A little bird just told us that you’ve finished a book !
First dibs on buying your book ! Just tell us when and where the book will be available .
Thanx, Nick for the heads up !
beady
Bids, it’s called The Bookmaker From Rabaul. Available on Amazon, ebook and paperback. A complete skin of fiction covering the bones of fact. Maybe I’ll try the same process on the VM manuscript, it doesn’t look any more difficult.
Thanks for the opportunity to plug the book.
@WOW: “…, if he had obtained the clothing from a charity or stole them, how do we know the pieces of paper and some of the other things weren’t left in the pockets of the clothes by someone else”
Yes, exactly, that was part of where I was going. But it’s still a bit awkward – because the rubaiyat (supposedly) appears in a similar time and location to the clothes (with the scrap). So while the exact timing can be confirmation bias (“Is it possible this book was dumped in your car on the 30th Nov?”. “Why Yes! now that you mention it, it might have been exactly on the 30th Nov – it was certainly around that time”), we still have awkwardly similar timings even if we add +/- 10 days….(I’m sure I remember reading somewhere a report the Rubaiyat would have been found on the 29th or earlier (which makes a difficult case for “he had arrived in Adelaide that day”) – but of course it could mean that he only took possession of those clothes that day.
But as I said before, an assumption that some evidence means something seems to always lead us to only being able to explain other evidence must be the result of an incredible coincidence (which of course is not impossible, but inconvenient nonetheless).
Anyone given any thought to where and under what circumstances SM was in when he acquired his fading tan and did Dr. Dwyer or Cleland actually describe it’s specifics, ie upper torso singlet outline or full body cover, or perhaps a tan line above the knees to indicate the wearing of shorts. I’m thinking that there were not to many outdoor professions in that era where people didn’t cover to protect from harsh sunlight, although it may be that deck hands or prison farm workers might have been exceptions. Also is it possible that a dead body, freshly expired, could be placed in cold storage under ideal conditions to prevent deterioration, say in a ship’s refrigerated hold, of the type used to store fummigated apples awaiting export; Then later, gradually brought back to normal temperature so that a post mortem would not necessarily reveal that the body was anything but that of a newly deceased person.
Someone with a medical bent might care to explain in layman’s terms, clinical pathological organ comparisons with regards to death by poisoning ie. glucoside or even jellyfish invenomation and something more generally encountered like fatal hypothermia. I’m thinking in particular about the likelihood of heart valve seizure in mid contraction, obvious organ deterioration including physical appearance, as well as blood lividity and brain damage. Are you up for this Byron, and I think you can get my drift on where I’m headed by checking my preceding post.
NP: Just a little trivia while things are a little slow. You’ll recall Bobbi’s missing White Sands Scientist George Taylor who turned up alive and well in Mexico. Not so his wife Normaleen who died tragically in an auto wreck leaving her three little girls without a mother and whose father turned out to be a conman. Well it so happens that his late wife had the maiden name of Lee, whilst her namesake Normaleen Shackelford’s maiden name was Park, both surnames not so unusual I’ll allow. The names Park and Lee are certainly not uncommon in Korea either, making up about forty or fifty percent of all surnames in that country. When you look at the two families, they comprised three kiddies apiece one of each born in Australia and the other two in the USA, albeit that those on one side were all males and on the other females. The two Normaleens having been born in very close proximity to each other in Sydney’s inner suburbs about 1920 as best as I can make out. I think that’s pretty cool, but I’ll own that it may not be seen in that light by some, so won’t raise a fuss if this ends up on the cutting room floor.
@ y’all: Even today, people who are working with any radioactive device wear a lead-lined ‘vest’ or apron. Dentistry, for example. Way back to 1943-1945: I had surgery to close my soft palate. Two years later, I had surgery to correct my crossed left eye. Before they did the eye surgery, they ran a slender rod which was tipped with a dot of Cobalt 60 — through my left nares/nostril. Some thirty years later I flunked a test using a Binocular microscope to do an RBC (red blood cell count). That event was my final attempt to become an RN . I still weep now and then.
and now, beady-eyed wonder
Damn those Malinckrodt’s !
bd
John, if SM’s body had been refrigerated (in the same way as the Germans were fooled with “the man who never was” in WW2) the absence of rigor mortis would have given the game away. Regarding the possibility that a seaman, third officer or not, could pick up enough lead to give a high lead level in his hair such as is the case with SM’s hair, yes, lead ore and lead concentrates were often shipped around Australia, and shipped overseas. SM’s hair seems to carry anomalously high levels of many metallic elements which suggests to me that SM worked in one of the following areas: mining, ore buying, primary or secondary metallurgy, shipping of ores and concentrates or the chemical industry.
Regarding the Park-Lee marriage I calculate that the probability of this pairing in Great Britain or the USA in the 1880s (1880 and 1881 census figures are the only ones I have close at hand) is about one in two and a half million. Unless something akin to nominative determinism is involved.
@John Sanders:
Don’t you dare relate your latest discussion of the Taylor family, and the
missing men and deaths of that family, to Normaleen (maiden name Park) Shackelford AND/OR her sister Aileen (Park) Murray .
The sisters (and two of Normaleen’s children) arrived on the same boat.
I don’t know where their husbands were, at the time of the Shackelford and Murray women (and Normaleen’s children) arrival in Marin County California. Normaleen and her two older children arrived at White Sands (New Mexico) just in time to give birth her third child, Mark.
bdid1dr
@ Milongal (a most dedicated researcher) : Don’t give up on us ! You are the best researcher I have ever encountered anywhere ! True that Sandy went a little bit over the line — but I forgive him.
beady-eyed wonder-r
Byron Deveson: in practice, however, even though few ships carried lead around in any quantity, that’s a research angle that hasn’t yet yielded anything for us. The source of the lead really is a mystery to me. 🙁
ps: @ John Sanders (aka: Sandy) : Normaleen’s husband (Shackelford) WAS a nuclear scientist at White Sands. All of the scientists at the various developing Nuclear facilities had mundane identities: garbage man, bulletin editor, ditch digging for water flow, custodian, graveyard / cemetery (both sides of the road).
PS: The very same day that I met Normaleen’s son Lee, he told me about his father teaching him advanced mathematics of what was going on at White Sands. He also told me of his little brother (Mark) being born at White Sands. There is, online, a photo of Normaleen and two of her children. I don’t know which child took the picture — unless it was her husband who took the picture before disappearing.
be-bopping-beady-eyed wonder
If only we could find an identifiable photo of Normaleen’s husband; so as to compare the Somerton Man’s photos and newspaper articles. It would be very strange if her last husband (John Pexa) had any papers, photos, or objects relating to the Shackelford/Murray families. Normaleen’s son , Lee Shackelford, took me to the City for a very brief introduction to Mr. Pexa. He was quite drunk and apparently did not recognize Normaleen’s son, Lee Erwin Shackelford.
bd
I wish we had some photographs of Normaleen Park SHACKELFORD’s HUSBAND who was a scientist at the WHITE SANDS New Mexico Nuclear facility. There is one photograph of Normaleen ( who later nicknamed herself as Noele) standing WITH two of HER CHILDREN inside the compound of that nuclear facility. She mentioned to me that her husband had disappeared right about the time of their son Mark’s birth.
I wonder if the White Sands nuclear facility is still operating; and whether they have photos and biographies of the scientists and workers at that facility.
bd
Normaleen Shackelford nee park, died as Noel(e) Pexa 1/9/68 aged 47 and she had been working as a skin care consultant in Fairfax County. John Pexa, who was 11 yrs. her junior only outlasted her by 3 years, and in his 41st year. What could have caused their demise at such a young age?, might it have been hastened by the worry and shame brought upon them by unspecified doings of Lee and his younger brother Preston who died in UK 8/9/01 aged 52. It couldn’t have had been to do with Mark’s premature demise at the hands of the latter, (as intimated in a recent post) as this was in 1974 when his mum and stepdad were long gone, and he was just 22. Then of course we have your late husband who held on until his passing in 1997, also aged 52. It would be nice to be able to fill in some more gaps in this family’s somewhat intriguing history but we seem to be rather short on credible, relevant information at the present…Bdid1dr: Sincerely trust that your folks enjoyed their trip on the Oriana to the Sydney zoo and best regards to Mr. Miller, “Sure I wanna cookie”.
@bd – still here just shifting house at the moment (only 1100km) and settling into new work….plus I’ve nothing much to add at the moment…
although FWIW some of the T Keane’s on the aif database ( aif adfa edu au) are gradually being resolved as the same person…2 different stints in the forces
Beady, John sanders links families that are not even related all the time using a huge amount of duct tape which he often applies liberally while standing on a wonky-legged ladder and using a 3 foot long pair of very worn BBQ tongs. My advice is take no notice of his highly speculative ramblings. I have given up on him, because he constantly sidetracks and derails any worthwhile discussion with various highly speculative theories that are often more bizarre than anything from the X-Files, and moreover he often seems to get his kicks from so doing whenever he thinks he has succeeded.
Bdid1dr: I’ll just link this last one, at the risk of offending that ol Will-O-Wisp who seems to have made her mind up not to be my secret pal afterall. Your deceased ex husband, Lee Erwin Shackelford’s aunt, Aileen T(h)eresa Murray nee Park, was born 14/3/18 and passed on 16/5/80. She appears to have at least retained her married name and remained in Marin County, but haven’t any information on her husband John or her surviving children.
Unless people can quote the sources of their information, it is for the most part useless. We need to establish the one Shackelford family line with clarity. At present it almost appears as though several different Shackelford lines are potentially being confused and mashed together to fit several highly suspect and speculative theories. Some posters have a tendency to write with certainty about theories and dates, but it later becomes evident that they were actually less than certain about the details at the time. It would be good to know the source of the information so that it is instantly verifiable. Otherwise we just have a confusing bunch of names and dates plucked from “somewhere-who-knows-where”. This is a bit like doing a jigsaw puzzle by constantly throwing all the pieces into the air and hoping they will eventually all land in the right positions. I have never known anybody to do their family history research in this kind of haphazard and disorderly way. Blame a university education if you like, but in the absence of sources I firmly believe that all information presented is potentially contaminated and therefore useless.
WOW: I for one refuse to suggest fault with your stated university education, but perhaps to use your own terms of reference, you’ll be happy now to provide credibIL proof of your attendance thereof, ie., your alma mata and personal details in order to affirm the veracity of such obviously commendable passage. I’m equally prepared to reciprocate in kind but I rather fancy that you won’t be so impressed. But back to the real program, you’ll no doubt be pleased to hear that most of my posted information on the very intriguing Shackleton family is actually borrowed from previous fully researched and verifiable posts from the likes of the esteemed Misca, Byron Deverson, and our illustrious moderator Nick Pelling. If you can spare the time, please cross check on those details, which were mostly gleaned as consequence of interrogotaries put to the original informant, Bobette Miller. Perhaps your own trusted sleuthful cohorts Aya, Carly and Bumpkin could be inlisted to assist as there’s a deal of digging to be done. You’ll be so kind as to inform me when the clarifications have been made and I’ll be most gracious in accepting your sincere apologies for the doubt and resultant insinuations of impropriety. PS. If there is anything missing, I’ll endeavour to give you the appropriate references on Wiki, unless of course the information comes from personal recollections, with which you will no doubt please yourself with regards to credibility. Respectfully yours &c., John Edward Sanders.
The only digging that needs to be done is at West Terrace Cemetery in Adelaide, South Australia. That is where SM’s body is located. Exhume the body. Do a DNA test. Put results in genealogical database and see what pops up. That is the only way to identify SM. The only way!
Ellen: At the end of the day, all of us are agreed, I’m sure, in that we only seek the truth as final justification for our investigative input. It goes beyond saying that our respective means to achieving a worthwhile outcome are somewhat at variance, although for our part, we are certainly prepared to make efforts at compromise. You’ll have noted our new blend of investigators have been assigned handy catch phrase titles rather than proper names, which because they only deal in absolute truths, have unselfishly placed themselves in the firing line to take the flack and act as foils in much the same manner as you yourself have done for your own essentially honourable team. As for the rest of us, we tend mostly to use our God given names unashamedly, but this is only a diversion, as we are “the few” who, being the hunters & gatherers of information, byy all and any means at hand, are the real key to victory. You see, things like unimpeachable truths can be rather an embuggerance in a way, especially in a cold case scenario where half truths and downright lies have enmeshed themselves rather inextricably. So to overcome this, we harness what we like to label as being perceptive, factually based assumptions, embellish them a little and let them loose on our unsuspecting enemy, the great unknown. When they’ve done their work, they’ll hopefully have gathered in all their new pals, which for want of a better name we’ll term, ingredient essential proofs, and these we trust, will win the day. Should your team wish to share this eventual, and most rewarding outcome with us, feel free to make use of our nameless fact seeking division, for so long as you feel that they are needed. It goes without saying that they are all university educated, and whilst being somewhat on the dull, temperamental side, with some strong nurturing and discipline, they could prove to be game changing in your own particular quest for truth at all costs. js
Bumpkin, I agree. Nick, yes, the Establishment in SA will continue to block Derek, but things are changing and the Liberal Party has previously said they will allow the exhumation of SM. In my opinion the Labor Party will not win the next SA election to be held 17th March 2018. So, we have but a year to wait.
In the meantime Prof. Abbott’s group is probably still working on the mitochondrial DNA from SM’s hair. Derek has previously announced that trapped hair taken from the plaster bust of SM has tested positive for mitochondrial haplogroup H. This means that two mutations that define haplogroup H were found in SM’s mitochondrial DNA. The mutations (single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs) that define Haplogroup H are G2706A and T7028C. My understanding of present DNA sequencing methods is that to be able to identify these two mutations a significant length of the mitochondrial DNA must have been recovered and sequenced, otherwise the location of the two mutations (at positions 2706 and 7028 in the mtDNA sequence) could not have been established. And this means that SM’s mtDNA has been at least partially sequenced.
FamilyTreeDna, a group that offers full mitochondrial DNA sequencing, says this about mtDNA.
“Matching on the Mitochondrial DNA Full Genomic Sequence test brings your matches into times that are more recent. It means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last 5 generations. That is about 125 years.”
IMHO Derek’s group has a partial sequence for SM’s mtDNA. How partial? I don’t know but my guess is a lame donkey 50% minimum. The bottle neck at present is that there are not many mtDNA sequences publicly available but that is changing and IMHO Derek’s group will get a match within the next 1-3 years. Autosomal DNA testing is rapidly expanding and I think many of the people who are having autosomal DNA tests will look at the next line of tests, which are mitochondrial DNA (ie. Mother’s line) and Y-DNA (father’s line). IMHO mtDNA testing will rapidly expand because in my experience women are fascinated by tracing their maternal ancestors (paternal not so much).
Genebank has a public database that currently contains 36,820 complete, on near complete, human mtDNA sequences and a lot of these are from Western Europeans. In other words the GeneBank mtDNA database is likely to throw up a close match for SM. Maybe not an exact match, but likely a close match, say within 10 generations (about 250 years). From there it is just a matter of tracing the paper trail genealogy. Remember that mtDNA doesn’t have the difficulties of “non paternal events” because mtDNA is passed on from the mother, not the father. Searching could be refined by having possible relatives tested. Mitochondrial DNA sequencing is reasonably cheap now (US $199 gets you a compete sequence).
Bottom line: We will know SM’s identity by 2019. Once we know who he was we can piece together his life.
@ B Dev : Just before now, I finished (and probably over-ran your latest g-rreat discussion of mtDna) . Oh, please keep us informed of developments of testing mtDna. Way back when I was a Nursing Student, they had just begun DNA studies which were coherent enough for Nursing students to understand. I’m hoping my children can be interested enough to take the mtDNA (sequencing?) tests. Please keep us posted. This plea is written by a University medical student who got snowed in (to the top of her hubcaps) and missed her final exams. $3,000 dollar loan I was unable pay — until I returned to California (flat broke).
bdid1dr
Still wondering
Nick, I agree that the research into the lead/zinc seaborne transport in Australia in the 1940s has not put a name to SM but I think that this research still has life in it. First, there is a significant (good? 50%?) chance that SM left money in a bank account so there is a (50%?) chance that SM’s name appears in the unclaimed monies lists. But there are several thousand names in these lists. I suggest that these lists should be checked against the crew lists and any other relevant databases. Directories and electoral rolls could be searched for the names of people involved in mining, metallurgy, stevedoring, chemical processing and merchant marine. Possibly 10,000 names?
In 2-3 years we should have the 1948/49 State Police Gazettes and it is possible that SM was reported missing.
Regarding possible sources of lead there aren’t that many ways that SM could have soaked up the amount of lead that is indicated by his hair lead analyses. The Standard Story is that clinical lead poisoning wasn’t uncommon in the 1940s but I have had an interest in this topic for several decades and my research demonstrates that the Standard Story is a beat up with it’s roots in politics.
As for the micro-writing. Huh? That guy is using modern technology to discover the micro-writing. Locating a copy of Gerry Feltus’ book The Unknown Man is proving quite difficult. My faulty memory reading extensively online of this case has Jessica nee Harkness as adopted. Was she?
@eamonn and others. You say “that guy” is using modern methods to ‘discover’ micro-writing. But has any actually been discovered? Has anyone here actually seen any micro-writing in his posts? I’m using a smartphone screen (nice shiny new one, very HD) as he advises – and I just can’t see it. I just keep being told that it’s there, that I’m looking at it. And still… I see nothing.
Has anyone else seen it? If so, I’ll look harder.
Tammy Should: anyone can claim to see microwriting in any single image – but if you then get a better resolution image of the same thing and the microwriting isn’t in the same place and isn’t more readable than before, it wasn’t actually there in the first place.
Simples.
Like NP said when it was first ‘discovered’, it says ‘SEGA’
There’s a part of me that gets concerned that a ‘seasoned (professional) investigator’ seems to be closed minded and seems to try to confirm his theory at the exclusion of all others – even when it means ignoring other evidence and plain common sense. I would have expected a Defective from a Police Farce to be more open-minded, and while they might chase their favourite lead, still consider that it might not be the one true path, and consider evidence even when it doesn’t fit the theory. Aside from microwriting appearing everywhere (including, apparently, on the cover of Feltus’ book), there’s the hocus-pocus explanation to turn someone who’s 5’11 into someone who’s 6’3 ….by my calculation that’s a shade over 10cm…etc, etc, etc….but never mind. To each their own, and I don’t necessarily subscribe to a lot of other people’s theories either….
Eammon: Gerry Feltus’s book may still be available direct from the author at theunknownman.com (if he has any copies left). Highly recommended, by the way. 🙂
Hello! I’m a novice to the study of this case, but how can ya ignore Rick Roberts’ solution posted above? ↑↑ …”TAMAM SHUD—POISON SAMPLE…MONEY DUE PAID, etc”…you replied that ◆”the deal was never completed, Rick”◆…how would you know? In fact from your dismissive response it sounds like you agree that there was some kind of “deal” going on…otherwise how could this hypothetical “deal” not be completed…if it never existed at all? Rick’s decryption makes PERFECT sense! How can you dismiss his solution? Just because SM was found dead with no trace of poison…while on one hand you say this could be a Cold War espionage case…and then discard the perfect solution to this code? And since you’re on the internet for yrs saying nobody knows who this man is…but you’re positive he never made any “deal” with anyone for anything, or assume this hypothetical “deal” existed but failed? Roberts HAS to be right. What the heck? what makes you so sure? You talk as though you’re 100% positive and sir, you are not
zizz: with my moderator hat on, Rick Roberts’ comments are polite and courteous, which is why I’m perfectly happy to let them through. With my cryptologist hat on, however, I don’t think there’s any significant chance that his claimed decryptions – which are almost always generated through a process of loose association – will turn out to be correct.
Yes it’s true most of his solutions/deciphering…it does involve “loose associations”. Some sound pretty damn good though, referring to posion…”PSNMPTD/poison emptied. Somebody else up there ↑↑ somewhere said “this can’t be solved without knowledge of the Persian language”…NOT necessarily true (i’m not an engineer myself but I was raised by one, so I rarely make the same assumptions that others take for granted. Now, I say: translating 10th century poetry, transposing it and making it rhyme in English, and have a natural rhythm in English. I hate that; I hate when poetry is “translated” in that way. SO I’m saying, that translation of the •Rubaiyat• doesn’t even require knowledge of Persian. SO: Rick Roberts is on to SOMETHING. “DBABAOGRM” (1st line backwards) fits the ENGLISH rendering of “Tamàm Shud”…with exactly the same number of characters…and “DBABA” really DOES match “TAMÁM SHUD” exactly, even the dbl letters– B=A and A=M…..he’s on yo something. I don’t believe “micro-writing”. And like the Bible Code, ppl finding seemingly meaningful codes in the Bible…you can find secret messages in any large volume. Moby Dick, it was prove. Roberts’ ideas seem very attractive to me
oh and just one more thing. “No traces of poison” means…”this man was likely poisoned…but we can’t find a trace/we didn’t look for the RIGHT POISON…or the poison is not well-known and it leaves no trace”. I’m knowledgeable about drugs, I am not a doctor…there are a lot more things besides digitalis that would be undetectable in a 1948 autopsy
well alright buddy it’s okay that you’re stonewalling me. I thought as long as I didn’t cuss or threaten violence it’d be acceptable. I’m sry. Idc if u don’t post my comments but I think that they would add to this fascinating discussion
zizz: sorry if two hours isn’t a quick enough turnaround for you. Even moderators have real lives.
Okay holy geez I’m sorry just discovered this website and my 1st comment was posted immediately. I didn’t kno. But to add some substance to THIS post, I’m a musician and I saw a previous post which said hey, this could be a form of musical notation, specifically guitar tablature…chord progressions (ABABD…A…BAE…ABAAC…AGB) ← those are the only letters that, taken at face value could be a musical chord progession (bcuz the musical alphabet is only A through and including G). And the ‘O’ with a small ‘x’ above it could represent guitar-tablature for a muted open string. I think that’s very creative thinking and I am impressed! Good idea…but no I’m sorry, i’d bet everything I own that’s not the reality. However perhaps the other letters could refer to different chords for example ‘M’ could could really mean “C#m” or “Esus2 (E suspended 2nd)…and if perhaps they indicated musical notation that, when written on stave paper created a musical code which contained the real coded message. Beyond that slim possibility, it’s brilliant thinking but it doesn’t make sense to me I’ve played music all my life 🙂 anyway sry to start off on the wrong foot but thanx for including me in your discussion
Eammon, I think Misca suspected that Jessica was adopted, and so do I. But we have no proof and I haven’t seen any. I note that it seems that the family could not provide the undertaker and cemetery with details of her birth, so even her family may not know one way or the other. We will have access to the NSW BD&M records for 1921 in 2022 so things will be clearer then.
Eammon, if Jessica was adopted then it opens the possibility that she was one of the many children sent out of harms way by displaced Russian families after 1917. Quite a few Russian children were send to Australia to be looked after by friends and distant relatives. One (in)famous example is Lionel Murphy. A Russian birth would explain Jessica being familiar with the language, as her daughter has claimed.
I was thinking… (I don’t know as much about this case as all of you so sry if u’ve heard this before)…1st of all as a student in High School, I’d get bored in class and since I’m not much of a visual artist, since I cannot draw a picture of anything, since I like words/poetry and sounds/music…Instead of sketches I’d doodle acrostics. Like I might think “I’m bored as hell and I hate this f***ing class” I’d doodle “IBAHAIHTFC”…so I’m familiar with that. I feel that the msg is an English language acrostic. Has it been determined that nobody called Jessica Thomson’s phone number on 11/30, or 12/1? Bcuz since her phone number was found in that book right above the msg…seems to me maybe he took some time to carefully write his last words. If he’s a suicide, he’d want to compose them carefully and make sure his final statement is communicated exactly as he planned. So, did he use this acrostic as shorthand, and call Jessica Thomson? I thought since the phone number was there with the msg…maybe he called her up and said that stuff verbally. But im guessing there’s probly no record of such a call
zizz: the Rubaiyat (and the phone number or numbers) turned up many months after the man was found dead.
yes sir I do understand that…but Tamam Shud came from that book with the phone number. Sumbody ripped “Tamam Shud” from that copy. If he had that book when he was alive, he could’ve composed that short hand and written Thomson’s phone number. So he could have obtained Thomson’s phone number, written it down on the book along with short-hand notes and called her up to say whatever it was. Let us assume he had that book. I’m not saying he could’ve called her after he died, of course not! But right before he died. He had the “Tamam Shud” so it’s not crazy to assume he had the book. So, what does it matter when the book was found? I don’t understand why you told me that bcuz I know that
He could’ve discarded that book 5 minutes before he died, as far as I can tell…so he rolls into town on the train with this Rubaiyat, perhaps he was Jessica Thomson’ s former lover and he got her number, thought really hard about what he wanted his last words to be, called her up and said the speech, ripped out Tamam Shud and killed himself with a mostly unknown poison
zizz: it would be nice if cipher mysteries yielded to romantic storytelling, but I don’t honestly think that’s going to start happening any day soon, sorry. 🙁
Nick; What zizz posted does (mostly) make sense. SM tore Tamam Shud from the Rubaiyat and placed it in his fob pocket. He then threw said Rubaiyat away. It was found in a car near Jestyn’s abode. It contained both her phone number and “code”. He probably knew either her or Prosper. It is the most likely explanation. As far as I can tell.
Okay so tell me what’s wrong with my postulation please. Bcuz I am interested and I’d like to learn more. I didn’t think my story was romantic at all…haven’t many ppl on this very blog postulated that SM was Jessica Thomson’s former lover, maybe the father of her child? I’m not the first to suggest he may have killed himself, or that SM had been involved with Jessica Thomson. So what’s wrong with my suggestion? It isn’t overly romantic, ppl kill themselves all the time bcuz of romance. I didn’t just suggest for the first time SM could’ve been romantically involved with J Thomson. Assume that’s true; my story is perfectly plausible
“My Life Is All But Over”, etc…he killed.himself after taking a train to her vicinity, wanted his last words to be perfect so he made that short-hand. THE PHONE NUMBER was on the book too, right? Well? He jotted down her number, called her up to say his speech and killed himself THAT IS NOT OVERLY ROMANTIC it’s actually called suicide and it happens all the time for what ppl call “love”…why is it that you treat me like I’m a moron?
zizz: sorry, you’re taking what I’m saying far too literally.
All I mean by “romantic” is that the love child + suicide note + poison + dead man on beach thing is a beguiling story that has many proponents but not a gnat’s whisker’s worth of actual evidence.
If you don’t like romantic storytelling…keep away from the •Rubaiyat• and poetry in general! SM had “Tamam Shud” in his pocket, from a very old book OF POETRY…”romantic storytelling” IS CLEARLY an essential part of this mystery, and has been ever since “Tamam Shud” was found in SM’s pocket.
Unfair comment, sizzle, NP has sweated blood and tears on this thing.
Okay this blog probably isn’t the place for me; fine. But HONESTLY I’m nonplussed. I’m confused, really. What did I say wrong? How in the heck did I offend this guy? How is he so positive romantic storytelling is irrelevant? So the actual content of the •Rubaiyat• is irrelevant? That’s not a good approach. Are you all so convinced that the msg is an encrypted code that you won’t consider otherwise? What is going on here?! Aren’t we trying to figure out this mystery? Here I had set forth a plausible scenario. And it was dismissed as “romantic storytelling”. My suggestion is just as likely as any other!! And who would say poetry has no place in this mystery? SINCE IT ALL HINGES ON A BOOK…OF POETRY!! PO-ET-RY! …maybe you’ve sweated blood and tears but you can’t just dismiss my supposition because it’s not mathematical!. I didn’t even know there WAS “romanticism” in my idea. So…HOW is it…that I’M the one who’s an asshole? Some ppl have been staring at this code so long they’re seeing all sorts of micro-writing. WHY AM I A JERK? It’s JUST AS UNFAIR to tell me that “romantic storytelling has no place on this blog”…well, my friends…maybe that’s why nobody’s figured this out. Are u so mathematically inclined as to dismiss my absolutely plausible idea of what may have happened? I DIDN’T ADD ANYTHING, only what is known. His dead body! J Thomson’s phone number! Her house 500 meters away! The fact SM may have fathered Thomson’s child. She apparently knew the man. ETCETERA!! okay? So just HOW is it that I’m the biggest jerk on this blog? In conclusion: IF YOU WON’T CONSIDER EVERY ANGLE HOW CAN WE LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT SM? I’m not a mathematical mind. Keep dismissing any theories that aren’t based on Cold War espionage micro-writing. No wonder you haven’t found the answer
zizz: all stories are indeed as likely as each other. The problem is that there are at least a million Somerton Man stories, which makes them all a million-to-one shot at best.
What you perhaps don’t realise is that I’ve seen so very many of these stories (long on narrative, homeopathically short on evidence) that I’ve lost all ability to see how yet another romantic recap based on essentially nothing at all helps anyone to do anything.
And as for microwriting… if Somerton Man evidence was grapes, Chateau Microwriting wouldn’t get an ant drunk.
There’s a book out there somewhere, maybe someone should point zzz at it.
Don’t read too much into this, it was just for a lark.
Somewhere else on the net there seems increasing comparison between Fedosimov and SM…and a cowardly anonymous commentator suggested finding some face matching software. So for shits and giggles I found an online face matcher.
One of the pictures it flagged was from WWI – of a (Finnish?) machine gun squadron in the Gulf of Riga (Latvia). In the picture below, the face flagged (at only about 60% match it should be noted) was of the officer (? the dude with the different hat) standing on the RHS….but I was more taken by the guy on the LHS – who I can imagine an uncanny resemblance to SM:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JP27_kk_miehi%C3%A4.jpg
The (artificially coloured) photo dates from 1916, so if we made up an age of 20 for him there, it would put him 52 in 1948 – which I think is roughly SM territory.
The site also puts SM at age 42 (with 60% confidence).
age : 42 (60%), beard : no, expression : neutral, gender : male (98%), glasses : no, mustache : no, race : white
Given the original post was about this Fedosimov guy, I should add that I also played around with his picture and got the following results
age : 43 (60%), beard : no, expression : smile (98%), gender : male, glasses : no, mustache : no, race : white
Before people get all excited about that, it’s worth pointing out that Fedosimov’s picture was taken well before SM’s – so the age similarity is actually a 5 year gap.
For completeness, I ran the pictures through the analyser against each other and, (surprise, surprise) the match confidence was very low (24%).
Of course, that doesn’t necessarily dismiss Fedosimov (the 2 images I used are relatively low quality and I have very little idea of how the face matcher works other than identifying distances between features), but IMO it certainly questions the 99% (later discounted to 98%) match that was claimed….
So I’m going to claim with absolute certainty (disclaimer: ‘certainty’ = ‘possibility’ and ‘absolute’ is meaningless here) that SM was a member of the Finnish 27th Machine Gun Squadron who protected the Letts in WW1 subject to anyone showing otherwise.
Milongal: I hate to say it, but as wildly speculative methodologies go, this is almost reasonable. Did you try matching Charles Mikkelsen too?
Boys, let me put something to you … this type of snotty exchange isn’t doing either of your online reputations any favours.
Such as they are.
Petebowes: let me know when your reputation becomes visible off the bottom of the graph, I’ll happily put the champagne on ice for that.
Not that they’ve even planted the grapes for that yet.
Thanks Pete – I’m not too concerned if people think I’m some sort of crank. Certainly that’s my opinion of most online posters I come across, so it’s only fair they think the same too….
FWIW in case it hasn’t been clear before, I very much doubt Fedosimov is SM – and I think the totally failed image comparison (on another site again it was only 16% but I think that was a pure picture comparison, not a facial recognition one) is as strong a case against as any pro one I’ve seen put forward.
One of the problems I have with a lot of the posts I’ve seen is that they suffer from badly from confirmation bias – that any evidence that might question a theory is dismissed while any shred of evidence that almost supports it is twisted until it seems unquestionable. IMO:
1) The height difference is insufficiently explained for Fedosimov
2) There are facial differences that are simply dismissed as “watch the angles” (and I think the overlay shows some of these clearly)
3) There doesn’t seem an obvious rationale tol Fed being in Adelaide – on the one hand we are to believe he is hiding from his past, on the other that Woomera (or the weapons testing facility at Salisbury) is why a spy would go there
4) There was a poster who claimed to find a record of Fed from 1968 (they didn’t link the record, so not sure how reliable it is), but it was dismissed as “must be a different guy” rather than because the record had been looked at
5) Facial recognition software appears to return a low match (granted, I didn’t do it scientifically, but it’s still a start for mine)
6) There doesn’t seem a record of Fed arriving in Australia (ok, this is searching a needle in a haystack, because presumably he used an alias). I was briefly excited finding a “Stepan Jovanivich”….until I realised that was 1949
etc….
Is it really possible that a high profile Russian spy was killed in Australia and nothing about his identity slipped out ever? No agency anywhere in the world (where the photo was circulated) accidentally said “shit, that looks like this Fedosimov guy we’re interested in”….
And then of course there’s the argument that they knew but managed to keep it secret. Yet they let Feltus waste a lot of time on a cold case they already knew so much more about?
Easy reader version: I don’t think he was Fedosimov, and I think it’s fairly easy to dismiss him.
@Nick: Didn’t even occur to me re CM, but will do that if I get a chance….
@Nick: Mikkelsen’s passport gives a 19% confidence for SM (and 16% for Fedosimov – not that there’s any suggestion they’re the same).
FWIW his picture is estimated at “45yo” (I think we know that to be 15 years out?)
Everyone is on the bottom of your personal graph, dome, and it shows.
Milongal, it’s about time you rose above lap-dog status, do you think?
By the way, how’s that BIG Somerton post going old boy? You promised it about twelve months ago. Mind gone blank?
petebowes: have you forgotten how to sledge?
The big SM post is so big I can’t fit it in the small margin of a blog post. I tried writing it up but stopped at 10,000 words, not even halfway through. Too big for a blog, too small for a book. Oh well.
I’m being kind, neither of us is getting any younger.
@nickpelling, if I may quote:
“However, when police looked up one of the phone numbers (or perhaps the only phone number, depending on which account you believe) that they had found on the Rubaiyat’s end page, they discovered it was that of Sister Jo Thomson (née Jess[ica] Harkness), a nurse who had recently moved to Glenelg. Her house was a mere five minutes’ walk from where the Somerton Man’s body had been discovered.”
Gerry Feltus was non-committal about more than one phone number, what other account are you referring to?
Pete: if non-committal is good enough for Gerry, it’s good enough for me. 🙂
I was hoping for something a little more exact.
Petebowes: *sigh*
Adelaide News, 23rd July 1949: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/56059849
The Littlemore documentary too?
And what Gerry wrote was:
“At one stage I was fortunate to receive old scraps of paper, some of which had a few old telephone numbers written on them…I purchased an old Adelaide telephone directory. In my spare time I read through the directory checking the list of telephone numbers I had against those in the directory…I eventually located a number that was significant. This number allowed me to obtain a name that eventually led to sufficient details for me to identify the nurse.” – G M Feltus
Petebowes: you can use Google to search Cipher Mysteries rather than ask me every time you forget something.
Just include site:ciphermysteries.com as part of your search query.
@nickpelling
It was detective Len Brown who provided information to the press about an additional phone number on the back of the Rubaiyat.
Feltus declined to confirm it.
Perhaps it should be you asking me the questions.
Cheers for now.
Pete: if you read what was said, it seems clear that Gerry Feltus never actually saw the original, and so could neither confirm or deny what had been said.
If in the future I have questions that I think you can answer, I’ll be sure to ask them. But don’t hold your breath waiting.
I’m quite certain that Gerry never intended for us wannabees to obtain a resolution, so as to override his own personal frustrative efforts to solve this so-called unfathomable mystery. That’s just the way it goes with disgruntled old suits when they can’t come up with the knowledge they seek. I’ve never read his book and yet I see no need to; and as a matter of fact, I’m thinking that a farce like the bookmaker, of which we’ve only been served snippets, might offer more constructive clues at the end of the day. I’m sure that there are still fertile areas of relevant detail which are as yet unchartered or otherwise overlooked that might be exploited further so my advice is don’t lose heart. There’s aways light at the end of the tunnel and it’s not necessarily the Melbourne/Adelaide Express.
John Sanders: that’s the spirit, keep on wiping your arse on books, that’s all they’re good for.
…. as a matter of fact, Brown was the source of quite a bit of fake news, which is unusual for such a senior detective, don’t you think?
NP: Tend to agree to a degree Nick; I’ve just finished a book by Dr. Rex Lipman titled ‘luck’s with a lady’. All about the Adelaide Solomons with heaps of sons to choose from, but only a couple of likely starters of the right vintage and both proved to be kosher in the plumbing department. Still looking for the shlomo who missed the cut and Reggy Harris of ‘secret formula’ notoriety may be a starter. His attempts to defy the forces of gravity are said to have failed on 21/6/49 though who knows what calendar was in play…and a hearty hi-ho silverstein awayyyy into the fray.
Pete, I think Gordon said that one of the detectives on the SM case was a crypto communist. I assumed that it was Brown.This could explain the mess and muddle that surrounds this case. Creative incompetence at work.
Byron: sounds to me like there’s too much speculation and assumption wrapped up in that single small package for it to be genuinely useful. 🙁
Pete: For starters Brown only made detective in October of ’48 and that hardly makes him senior in my opinion. We don’t know who the alleged red under the bed was, it could have been Strangway who was said to be investigating from day one and who was never spoken of again even though he was very senior, even to Leane. Could it have been that constable Moss (Solomon?) was awaiting the callout from old John Lyons, the early morning swimmer who had walked all the way home to sound the alarm. Why didn’t he call from the crippled children’s home just across the way and why did both gentlemen later attest to the crime scene being undisturbed. Well what about the stomping, shitting racehorses that were said to be present before both arrived on the crime scene; it’s no wonder that SM’s dentures weren’t found. Why did Moss also make mention of the busy stairs to the beach when he would have known that they had been unusable since demolished by the April storm. None of this has been raised previously and I’m wondering why not.
Byron: do you remember the comment you made about the notes a female journalist made when interviewing Brown, where she wrote that the other number was Boxall’s?
John S: six months should be enough time for a few Adelaide chippies to erect a new set of stairs, yes?
Nick: America was almost rancid anti-communist about this time and Australian internee camps were full of them. America wished Australia would get their act together and begin rooting them out of government, as did the MI5.
A speculator’s buffet.
Brown does come across as vague and clumsy (if you read the research/script for the 1976 doco (as opposed to watching the doco) it almost seems as his answers to questions change – in part because of angles the interviewer takes (that is, he seems to be vague and struggle to recollect in one take, and definitively confirm the interviewers questions in the next). I’d sort of assumed a lot of the clumsiness at the time was down to 2 things:
1) They assumed this to be a mundane missing persons which would sort itself out
2) Brown and Leane were relatively late on the case (which means they didn’t necessarily process the original evidence). With that in mind, it’s interesting that (again, in the notes for the doco) Leane seems to insist there was a syringe nearby – sort of putting his reliability into question.
I think I’ve said before I subscribe to Hanlon’s razor: “Given a situation caused by malice or incompetence, always assume incompetence”. The problem with the idea of detectives befuddling the investigation is that too many “breakthroughs” seem to have appeared at a time when they were unnecessary and if anything, brought spotlight back to the case. The whole finding of the Tamam Shud slip is so peculiar that it almost has to have been planted – but what does that achieve other than bumping the investigation up into people’s minds again.
If we are to believe this idea that SM was all tangled up with the espionage crowd, then we have to believe that someone, somewhere knew this, and should have had enough influence to make the problem go away (it would be easy enough for someone to give a definite identification of someone who barely exists, surely?). This is one of the difficulties with the spy theory – if we believe the labels were removed as part of a through search, how is it the Tamam Shud fragment wasn’t found? These people were supposedly experts at finding even the most innocuous concealment – yet they missed a pretty obvious one?
Of course, most people explain this as deliberate befuddlement – but what’s the purpose? At the time the TS slip (and subsequently Rubaiyat) is found, what does it do other than adding intrigue to the case. If you were trying to mask the fact that this guy was a top operative somewhere, why suddenly ‘discover’ a code that will have people speculate spy theories? Is this an attempt by “good guys” on the inside trying to flag a cover up? Perhaps this is some sort of signal to someone in the “homeland” – but even that seems overly cumbersome. The problem to my mind is that as we speculate that sort of thing we seem to deliberately complicate the situation just to satisfy ourselves that it makes sense.
As for the stairs….they look to me to be concrete (other than the last 5 steps) so I don’t think they’d be knocked out by a storm….
On second thoughts, and in a Strangway, Harry was most unlikely to have been our Sapol resident ‘lefty’. It appears that he was more likely to have been an ultra rightist, British to the bootstraps and fair dinkum Aussie patriot. In 1928 Commissioner ‘the bull’ Leane, as one of Tom Blamey’s ‘red terror’ extermination team busted the Adelaide dockers strike and carved up his ‘plain-clothes’ boys who had been in cahoots with the alleged bolshi’s. Not in a Strangway, I’m thinking that Harry and his old loyalist mate Detective Sgt. ‘Scan’ Sutherland, both born during Queen Vicki’s reign, had been partners in crime stopping since those heady tumultic events and we now know that they were the first team assigned to the Somerton Beach case.
With regards to Sgt./Const. John Moss of Brighton Police, and quite apart from the four porkies he told at the inquest, he was another one of the old school street cops and a good one, apparently a mate of Scan Sutherland and and to all accounts competent as station boss cum prosecutor in the Glenelg district for many years. In fact SM was not the first beach body attendance in his various well reported case loads (bush fires, dog bites, drunken S’pore/American engineer, lost day-old chicks &c.) In 1943 he was first on the scene an attempted murder/suicide right there at X marks the spot. The body was that of an airforce officer, recently widowed who had taken the easy way out with a gunshot to the temple. His infant child was also shot, but still living when delivered by Sgt. Moss across the way to the Alvington crippled kiddies home. Interestingly Sqd.Ldr. Bungee had been known to the constable, so onne can’t help but wonder whether this may have been applicable in the Somerton man case. On a similarly sad note, we find that the good constable was subsequently demoted and also transferred to a shithole posting but the powers that be have not been forthecoming with any relevant details. And the lesson for to-day; Get caught out telling fibs in Court and you’ll most likely end up in Coventry (Henley Beach), minus a stripe or two.
……Demotion of Sgt. Moss is an assumption on my part. He had been O.I.C of Brighton but did not retain that title at his new posting as far as I can tell.
Anyone remember the old Wrigley gum wrappers that had some sort of random alphabetical code under the flap of each individual stick I think. When we were kids it was believed that if you could get one with all 26 letters in an A to Z run, you could send it off to their Asquith HQ and a full box of gum would be sent back gratis,but alas I certainly don’t recall the proposition ever eventuating. I can’t offhandedly think of how such usefull information could be put to use for the purposes of passing messages but of course it would certainly be simple enough. And whilst on SMs few pocket offerings as yet undiscussed, it seems that there were two hair combs one of which was said to be a US army type made of metal. I don’t recall that there was any such item on standard issue to servicemen, certainly not post ww2 although a little stainless steel shaving mirror with a hang hole was a thoughtfull addition to our kit. I’m thinking that the comb was for an alternate purpose, but if not a horse comb, then I know not what other use it would serve.
With this post I’m going to be wearing my spook shoes, so some might be cautioned to look away as this could get messy. Remember the small sheet of zinc aloid with the fold in the centre and the length of light cord. They shall now be referred to as the ‘anchor’ & ‘snag’ respectively, with the metal comb being the ‘jig’ and the procedure working just as well for delivery and collection. The dead drops are identified as various beach locations specified in the Rubaiyat code book by initials in plain, with some letters known to be without value. To effect delivery your man simply goes to the assigned beach location, digs down into the sand about a foot or two, places the anchor and message along with the snag cord in its fold then fills the hole being sure to leave a short piece of the knotted snag visible if possible. For retrieval, if by some chance he can’t see the snag end (at night), he locates it using his jig comb as a rake then simply pulls upwards and takes his message from within the anchor fold. If we’re to believe this line, on the day in question, SM may originally have intended to make his drop at Outer Harbor (O with cross on code sheet & Henley Beach nearest station in those days), then on to a pick up at Somerton…But something went horribly amiss, though at least he cleverly and courageously attempted to get word of this back to HQ and quite effectively it seems, if that is how it all went down of course. You’all can be the judge and I’ll reserve my opinion should it be of any relevance to the particular proceedings at this pointin time.
milongal: I think the key is to avoid impatience. By which I mean trying not to be so annoyed by the inscrutability of the Rubaiyat slip that you feel compelled to weave a story around it, whether spy-themed or otherwise. 🙂
@JS: Outer Harbor Railway Station opened 1926 – and Osborne (2 stops up the current line) was open by 1908. In fact, according to Wikipedia the entire OH line with the exception of St Clair (2014, although Cheltenham Racecourse used to be there before that) and North Haven (1981) was already there (oh, nobody seems to know when Draper came to be either). Not sure what the frequency of Service would’ve been (in those days there wouldn’t have been much housing on the Peninsula, I’d imagine, so the primary purpose would’ve been connecting to Ships?).
FWIW: I did try some time ago to match some of those initials to Railway Stations in SA, and nothing obvious came out….of course if we extended it to suburbs in general something might come out.
AFAIK the only Adelaide suburb (ever) with a ‘Q’ is Queenstown which has existed in some form since the 19th Century but it’s not clear whether it was more than a post office in that era. Wikipedia helpfully offers:
“The first Queenstown Post Office opened around 1865 and closed around 1869. An Alberton West office was renamed Queenstown East in 1948, then Queenstown in 1966 before closing in 1976”
which doesn’t definitively mean anything, but suggests in 1948 there might have been a “Queenstown East” post office (which if Outer Harbor is O rather than OH, then Queenstown East is plausibly Q). But to me the letters being randomish- suburb initials isn’t helpful (how do we resolve multiple ‘T’) and I think the crossed out MLIAO sort of works against that too….
@Nick: At the risk of overanalysing (which might be your point) the Rubaiyat is problematic (I think moreso than the TS slip itself). Without it, the whole story becomes mundane, yet I haven’t yet seen a satisfactory link. In some respects, this is true of the entire case – that for almost any of the proposed theories to be true we simultaneously need to believe opposites (eg the police/spies were simultaneously thorough and incompetent; or he was a poor man yet ye bought both a bus and train ticket one of which he didn’t need (and a pastie); etc). We can explain some of it away (eg the TS slip was left for the police to find and they missed it) but that then makes the Rubaiyat a little problematic (it almost suggests the person who found it was waiting, holding on to it until the TS was found – a more likely scenario would be it either ending up in lost property somewhere (if there was any perceived value), or being discarded). So all of that would then make everything about the Rubaiyat significant and deliberate yet it appears to have only befuddled the investigation. Was it a sign to someone then? Even this is difficult to see – how do you know it would be widely (or widely enough) publicised? If TS had been discovered immediately would it have had the same effect? And yet, on face value, when wee don’t even know that SM was wearing his own clothes, how are we to know the slip of paper relates to him at all and not someone else related to the clothes? For mine, this is sort of an avenue (albeit a very narrow one) to entertain the Pavel idea (I’m still not aware of any evidence of him ever being in Aus) – and explain the differences. That perhaps SM was set up to make someone think Pavel had died (you need a body who looks very vaguely similar, and you rely on the fact that the story rather than the picture will tell the tale….) – but it still relies on the fragment AND the book it came from. Increasingly I start to think that TS and the Rubaiyat are incidental rather than important – but that doesn’t really sit comfortably either (not least for reasons outlined above) – and it still makes Boxall one helluva coincidence (although he is that either way, I suppose).
One of the problems with Rubaiyat turning up so late in the piece is that the pencil could have appeared there at any time. Perhaps the finder’s kids were scribbling Wrigley wrappers on there (a’la JS suggested); perhaps the finder had at some scribbled phone numbers there (jotted one down that he needed at the time, and later forgot he might have put it there – or perhaps been afraid he’d somehow implicate himself) – the point is, that even if we link TS to SM not just the clothes, and even if we link the Rubaiyat to the TS (there’s an assertion it was a positive match, but I’m going to question that too) then we still haven’t linked the scribblings in the Rubaiyat to SM. Anyway, that was certainly my point, and I suspect your (far more succinct one too) – there’s a lot of over-speculation about the Rubaiyat….
Whilst my suggestion that letters of the code represented various beach locations for dead drops, I did mention that some letters were assigned no value which certainly would have included the multiples. I only put up Outer Harbor as a possible because It seemed to fit the scenario nicely and assumed Henley Beach rail was a likely point for embarking thereto. Of course my whole proposition was only intended as a discussion point and therefore not necessarily my own personal theory on the so called Somerton man conundrum. Mind you ‘the beach burial’ business is not new to spydom so all I can really take credit for is getting the spelling of O. H. correct….Misconstrued Logic Initiates Acrimonious Objections.
Milongal: Almost missed your deliberate mistake with the last letter omission from the code’s struck second line….Intuitively should fit handsomely enough I feel.
lol JS – the missing I was a genuine oversight
Another reason I don’t think Fedosimov was SM (or vice versa, if you like)…..
The International Atomic Energy Agency has had general conferences since 1957. From 1958 until 1966 these were attended for the USSR (in varying capacity, sometimes as alternate delegate, sometimes as an advisor and with varying title) by a P. I. Fedosimov. In the later conferences, his attendence is listed as “Pavel I. Fedosimov”.
I found somewhere that Fedosimov’s DoB was 1910 (unfortunately I can’t find the exact date anymore).
Aside from the fact that this would put him at 38 in Dec 1948 (unless his birthday was in Dec, in which case he’d be 37), and marginally younger than our lower bound for SM (though not by much, and not enough to exclude him for certain, I suppose); this would also put him at 55 or 56 at the time of the last conference he attended. Given the retirement age in the USSR appears to have been 60, it is likely that the public service would have retired earlier, and 55 looks like a possible retirement (actually I’ve also found evidence certain “harmful or dangerous” workers might have retired at 50 or 55 – and you would imagine this would include spy types).
Given the dates (and the difficulty to find even 1 Pavel Fedosimov) I would say this representative at the IAEA is the same Major Fedosimov of Venona association.
2c
NP: I’m sure you have picked up on my recent diversions, but some of them may yet prove valid. Like you, I still think that our old buddy Tom Keane may still be the main common denominator in all this. Pray tell, did you ever make any headway with inquiries with the insurance firms as to policies in that name, either payed out or submitted for their consideration. To be effective for a death clause increment payout, such a claim would, obviously, and by the company’s own stringent provisions not be valid if suicide was the cause. I can’t help but take note of the fact that our man appeared to have been attired in garb befitting a man attending his own funeral and that he had chosen a place that almost guaranteed he would be located in fairly short shrift. You’ll also recall that Det. Leane (much later in the day), stated that a syringe was found some distance from the body, and in those days, one would think it to have certainly been of some significance, though apparently not in this case. To take this scheme one step further, and suggesting that the man was doing everything so at to facilitate his own nefarious intentions, I’m thinking that he may have overlooked something not considered likely. Many a low paid detective in those days would have had good and rewarding contacts with the big insurance companies, and so to plant a piece of evidence likely to have a claim denied would not have been too difficult to arrange. Just a little slip of paper suggestive of ‘the end’ inserted discreetly in an out of the way place, (to be discovered seemingly by chance at the appropriate time and place) would do the trick, don’t you agree?.
John sanders: if a “low paid detective” was trying to turn the Somerton Man’s death into some kind of insurance scam, I’d say they Darcy Cocked it right up. 🙂
NP: Frankly speaking, I must say that I was a little surprised and somewhat unsettled by your flippant comments regarding the perceived actions of a deceased person; for all we know D’Arcy may have had roots within our Aboriginal or Torres Straight Island peoples, which does necessitate an appropriate measure of caution. That having been said, and somewhat more to the point, I tend to agree with you, but still feel that Mr. Cock’s prick relation Dr. Cowling might merit some further investigation, you never know, we may be in for an eDeucation….L.O.L but likewise a little L.o.l….Leane on logic!.
John Sanders: it was your half-Darcy-Cocked conspiracy theory, not mine. 🙂
NP: Guilty as charged no doubt, although I prefer the more subtle term of enhanced propositional hypotheses (pl). Conspiracy is such a harsh and frequently misassigned word; always puts me in mind of Roswell NM ’47, ‘the grassy knoll’ Dallas, ’63 and of course building 07 NY, 9/11. None of the above should be confused with things like Mr. Voynich’s manuscript for instance, which some consider to be a hoax; the difference being in that the latter can be well managed by a single and determined mind freak.
The difference being that the latter can be well managed by a collective of determined linguists. None of whom appear to be contributing at this point of time, or am I wrong?
Pete: Determined perhaps but not so cunning (sic); that’s my kind of linguist.
Petebowes: my belief is that Voynich research (linguistic or cryptologic) has never been “well managed” in any useful sense of the phrase; and that it has suffered for this lack in much the same way that Somerton Man research has.
Well managed. That’s a useful phrase. Is it well managed to try to solve the Somerton mystery without considering espionage in the same way it is well managed to try to solve the Voynich mystery without using the skills of a linguist?
Petebowes: what Voynich Manuscript linguistic researchers keep failing to understand is that they have arrived before the party has started. The reason they get no answer when they knock on the door is that everyone is out at the supermarket buying crisps and booze.
By way of comparison, what Somerton Man espionage researchers keep failing to understand is that they’re knocking on the wrong door completely. For one, the Rubaiyat note is acrostic, which means that it is an aide memoire for the writer (and not a secret code for communication). And for another, there is precisely zero evidence that unnamed secret services went around Australia adding microwriting to photographs and book dedications (a suggestion, moreover, that has been unambiguously disproved by the most recent sets of scans).
@JS: I think Leane mentioned a syringe in a take that never made the doco (pretty sure it’s in the National Archive’s record (there’s 2 files full of detail for the doco)), but the fact that the actual published version didn’t have it strikes me as interesting, as does the idea that Leane wouldn’t have even been to the scene until well afterward (by which time a “syringe near the body” is actually “a syringe sort of in the vicinity where the body had been found”). Nonethteless, it does strike me a little interesting it was ignored by all others – either noone else knew about it, or they didn’t think it significant….
I (probably unfairly) wonder about the reliability of Leane. The interview where he mentions the syringe was well after the fact again, and he was a reasonably old man (possibly with his own unproven theories as to what actually happened) so between memory fades and wanting the facts to be a particular way anything is possible. But the bit that gets me the most is that there’s a scribble on the film notes along the lines of “Coopers for Leane” – which suggests to me that he was ok to be interviewed as long as they bought him some beer (for the non Australian, Coopers is South Australia’s (Australia’s, even?) longest continuously family owned brewery). We all like beer (which is perhaps why I feel I’m a little unfair), but it strikes me a touch unusual that where everyone else is getting $50 for an interview, Leane is insisting on beer (and in the 70’s I’d be guessing you could get 2-3 cartons for $50).
Some Voynich party, it’s only been been going on for a couple of hundred years and still no champagne. Not a lot of women invited either. No linguists, nobody from the sub-continent, no gypsies, no Indian speakers ….
The Voynich club. Membership restricted. Must be blind in one eye.
And congratulations on reaching a position with regard to the Somerton Man and his code. It’s Acrostic. Why didn’t I think of that?
And the small square of paper he carried in his pocket? The secrecy surrounding the finding of the book? The photograph of the overwriting that covered the indentations? The missing back cover? The hole in the back page of the book, the one that matched the small square of paper?
You must think that the idea of two men using such a method as a means of covertly identifying each other is without precedence, a nonsense.
I don’t know how you can make your way around the supermarket aisles without the assistance of a seeing eye dog.
NP: I’m pretty sure that we simpler folk are quite satisfied with the Rubaiyat’s acrostic make-up, but thanks for the reminder; afterall, how could we deny the ruling by such an authority as Eric Nave, the WW2 cipher decryption expert. Still we must not ridicule those lesser intellects who maintain that the note surely relates to the nefarious doings of coldwar subversive elements; we could end up with shit in our feces. Which reminds me of your own previously stated contention that the agnostic, godless Kremlinites may well have had architecturally based connections to the much more intellectually satisfying, though hoax-like Voynich manuscript.
The off whitish openweave tie is the only suitcase item marked T. (Sic) KEANE, correct?, the two other marked items of apparel and a washing bag being marked either KEAN or KEANE. We do not know who wrote those names, though we have always assumed that it was likely to have been either the original owner or any number of laundry workers who had taken delivery thereof. Note that all the letters are in upper case and printed, as one would expect; that is all except the initial that proceeds KEANE on the tie and it is followed by a period dot. Whilst it has the appearance of a cursive T., it has also been suggested that it is the number seven which I personally doubt, mainly because of the period. So where does that leave us?; might I be so bold as to suggest that it may not have been put there by either Keane the owner or the laundry staff and that it’s inclusion, most likely at a later date was for a definate purpose, so as to be more specific on ownership ie. namely Thomas which oddly has always been seen as the main contender. We don’t seem to have given consideration to any of the other first names beginning with the letter T, almost as if we were conditioned to the fact, somewhere along the way that Thomas Keane with the E was our only contender. To further support my contention, wouldn’t it be more likely for a person writing a name on fabric, to do it all in print so as to make it more legible. That particular unidentifiable initiating stroke was placed to deceive in my opinion, but by whom and to what end, I can’t offer a definitive answer…As an addendum, it might be reasonable to assume with confidence that the surname Keane or Keane and like derivatives have their origins in Ireland or Scotland, though such an assertion could be somewhat contentious. What folks might not be aware of is that the very same name spelling Keane and Kean, meaning bold or sharp, is also of Germanic decent as a male Christian name; so there’s food for thought.
Petebowes: the idea of using a matching piece of paper as a means of identifying a person genuinely goes back to the 13th century (the Knights Templar did it), so seeing this as a necessarily espionage-linked activity would seem to be a bit shallow.
As to the rest of your comment… more fool you.
Both certainties and uncertainties are fundamental types of knowledge: discuss.
Petebowes: done that. 🙂
Showboat.
@milongal: Not sure it was Major Fedosimov (i think that’s just come from a codename in the Vassilijev documents (Maj/May – which refered to Fed’s predecessor Stepan. Interestingly Fed’s codename was Stepan too).
Now in one of the conferences mentioned it says Fed’s wife was there. I wonder if we can find a name? I’m pretty sure the Fed of US fame was wed to a Vera Fedosimova (That’s the feminine form).
As well as Pavel and Vera (who travelled to the US in 1944) there’s a Paul Fedossimov of a similar age who travelled to the US in 1939.
What say ye to that tgen?
Oops on the “Major” – I took that from elsewhere without thinking….
Other than that there’s not much to say, but I will anyway. It would be certainly interesting if we could verify that the wife of Fedosimov in the late 50’s and 60’s was also Vera – but I’m sure it would be dismissed as coincidence too.
I would be inclined to dismiss Paul too. While Paul is certainly a possible translation for Pavel and Fedossimov looks to be a different spelling of Fedossimov, there’s several reasons why I think we can dismiss this particular instance:
1) let’s consider why people would anglicize their name:
a) Because they want to fit into another society – Plausible for an immigrant; less likely for a foreign diplomat who will be representing the country he’s proud of (and let’s not forget this instance is BEFORE all that Venona stuff)
b) because they want to obscure their identity – and I think firstly a spy would be more obscure (eg “Fred Bloggs” instead) and wouldn’t be doing it BEFORE they took up their post, unless they were going to keep that identity
2) If he changes to Paul Fedossimov to go to America, why revert back to Pavel once he’s arrived
3) The 1944 travel is (as I understand it) more consistent with when Fedosimov started his stint in the Embassy
It is sort of interesting that despite the trouble we have in finding any trace of (any) Fedosimov other than mentions in the Venona diaries there’s still an insistence that it’s a very common name and that there were clearly multiple Fedosimovs. Part of the problem is that we’re all arguing on blogs. While blogs are great for disseminating information (or certainly opinion) a blog is not much good if it reveals everything all at once – so the trick is to appear to have a full story (or even actually have one), and gradually leak out the detail. So you’ll notice regular assertions that “all will be revealed” and even “if you knew the detail we know you wouldn’t be saying that”. Unfortunately, I’ll continue to believe SM wasn’t Fedosimov until there’s some solid proof that he is – and at the moment there just seems to be a lot of handwaving and assurance that “trust me, it is” – despite (in my opinion) stronger evidence against than for. One of the problems I have with that blog in particular is that it seems to suffer massively from Confirmation Bias (yes, I know I harp on about that). For example, consider that when Fedosimov was first brought into the equation, there was some confusion over identities, and the photo of Nikolai Novikov was accidentally billed as being Fedosimov. Already at that time we were being told of the similarities between Novikov and SM, and when the error was realised there was some sleight of hand to say “actually, this guy is a better match” (admittedly, I think one commentor had made that observation in the comments before the switch – although I can’t seem to find that comment, so I might be wrong).
I also think it’s interesting that the US put a border watch on Fedosimov in 1951 – 3 years after he left the country. While it’s possible that that simply reflects the slow wheels of bureaucracy, it suggests that as far as the US was aware Fedosimov was still alive or was trying to show someone that they did. For mine, short of any conclusive proof that the Pavel I Fedosimov at the IAEA conferences is different to the Fedosimov of VENONA fame I find it far easier to believe they are one and the same, and therefore Fedosimov is not SM.
Clearly me believing so is hitting raw nerves somewhere…..
Oh, and I meant to add – VENONA papers suggest Fedosimov left the US on 31 July 1948 on board the SS Pobeda (there is evidence 3 other Russian nationals missed the boat) headed for Russia – that gives him 4 months to get to Russia, visit NZ and end up in lil’ old Adelaide (on a passport that doesn’t use ‘Fedosimov’ – because we have no entry records for him). Certainly not in possible, but when 10 years later someone with an identical name turns up in Russia (where he was last known to be headed) as a diplomat one can’t help but think that it’s one and the same, no?
Fedosimov was 38 in 1948 (fractionally younger than most speculate SM was, but not so much that we would dismiss him). in 1958 he was 48. This is definitely still young enough to be representing his country at the Atomic Agency’s conferences.
I also suspect the idea of a spy in the cold war has been romanticized a little in a lot of the speculation – and that while Fedosimov was probably involved in espionage I don’t think it was necessarily to the level where he would feel the need to alter his identity to enter Australia – depending on the exact circumstance of his departure from the US he wouldn’t necessarily think there was a need to change his name….
We’ll never know upon what clues old Jack Cleland based his rather confident assessment that the man before him on the mortuary slab was a ‘Britisher’ Could it have been the smug, imperious public school set of his jowls, or was it the presence of various well documented physical deformities, that may have hinted at inbreeding. Whichever ever it may be, I somewhat reluctantly find that I’m in agreement with the old expert. Then we have the single photo of Pavel Fedosimov, which may or may not have been enhanced. Not withstanding, it would be virtually impossible to reform those piggy eyes and imploded nasal features without a full blown facial reconstruction. He undoubtedly has those typical eastern Slavic features and no dyed in the wool Britisher should likely be mistaken for your average person of Slav background; that would be insulting to both races. I know That you lads over there, Gordon, Clive and Misca have put a lot of time into this identification and full credit to you; I’m sorry to say I think you’re mistaken folks, but I’ll be the first to applause if I’m proved wrong.
Apparently Nick has removed every post I’ve made over the past two years. That’s OK —I’m fairly certain that Bumpkin will be doing some followup. I would hope that Nick is compiling posts (rather than deleting them).
I’m hoping to travel to Alamogordo for their next tour (and maybe ‘open book’ discussions, if they have them).
I still insist that “Somerton Man aka Shackelford, was working with the scientists at “White Sands” (pre-bomb-development name) for the facility designed and built specifically for making the bombs which destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I was born in 1943 (Illinois). By 1945-46 my parents were ‘purifying’ uranium produced by Malinckrodt Industries for making the bombs for Einstein, Oppenheimer, and Oliphant. et al.
Mr. Shackelford ‘escaped’ from White Sands/Alamogordo, when he learned for what purpose the bombs were being made.
So, Nick, have you become very tired of my contributions — or are you more tired of Mr. Sanders?
bdid1dr: over the past few months, I’ve had to moderate out a lot of your comments, simply because you’ve begun repeating yourself over and over again, while saying less and less.
I’ve allowed through literally thousands of your comments over recent years (more than any other CM commenter by far), but even I have to draw the line somewhere.
@JS you make a good point. From Prof Abbott:
“The ginger tinge of his hair plus large limbs could point toward a Scottish ancestry. This means the probability of a Scottish ancestry is a little higher, but by no means certain.”
I hadn’t actually given too much thought to the “Britisher” comment – but you’re probably right that it is quite significant (my heritage is Baltic (2 generations ago), and though I speak the local (‘Strayan) lingo well enough I more often get mistaken for Mediterranean (if there is a such a thing) than British….
Incidentally, I don’t want to stir the pot more than already has been, but i did come across a picture of the Russian Foreign Minister Molotov meeting the Canadian foreign minister Pearson in 1956. Unnamed in the picture (walking along side the Russian minister) is a large lumbering man who could be Fedosimov….Certainly I could imagine some likeness in facial features, plus height….but I think it’s probably easy to get carried away and see what you want to see….
The cipher tells you the pass word of this one touch pad. The book was used so you’d know which passage by layout of the code. All keys in word from using the this book are alcohols. The alchemy of subtle grape transforming to form a key. Pass key is gleneg like the street he died on. Solution was handed to NSA back in 2011. Code reads that they needed to set up shop in Melbourne due to a pipe leak. Both gleneg and loureg are single malt whiskey made in great Britains turf. Forgive my horrid spelling of the two most expensive alcohols used by the Queen herself. Body was potentially id as a British American who travelled after intentionally leaving his I’d in an American bar. I’d matches photos at time of death, unknown if it was the man’s real name. He was informing them he had found a sleeper sympathetic to the Russians and was leaking information. He was sending where the leak needed to be sealed for the protection of the American people during that time. Thought you would want to know.
At the risk of getting flamed some, what if the rubaiyat is a hoax gone wrong? The TS fragment doesn’t appear to match the tears in the book, and perhaps there was pressure on the analyst to confirm the findings so the paper was found to “undoubtedly” be the same. Even today people make up stories or try to link themselves to high-profile stories (for a joke, or for fame, or for some other reason) and perhaps the Rubaiyat was just that. In this case, the scribblings become irrelevant, and the phone numbers are less unusual.
And I don’t think the idea is all that far fetched – we have to distrust some evidence, but ‘most every idea that we can come up with needs us to believe that some evidence and/or conclusions that came from it are flawed….
The biggest problem (I think) with the idea the Rubaiyat was an irrelevant hoax idea is the anonymity of the finder.
(NB: Just to be clear, I’m not discounting the TS fragment (which I think others have accused of being a plant anyway), but rather that the Rubaiyat that was “definitively” linked to the fragment may have been a joke gone wrong – and it’s a thought for consideration rather than a claim it was so).
milongal: I have something to email you a little later, hopefully you’ll like it. 🙂
If it is a hoax then why does the code show you which verse to use? The hand of fate moved forward and did not scratch out a line but continued on? Reading what was one of the most popular spy novels of the time is important. His actions prior suggest he knew he had a tail and took the laudnaum, arsenic and cyanide to not be taken living. I fail to see how the evidence should be did regarded when it is crucial to police work and reconstruction of what occurred to find out why and to whom.
Hi Nick – I’ll look forward to it (I had used a fairly old email address that I wasn’t actually using, but I have managed to make it active again – and sent a test email).
I notice our friend in the online world has now also found US interest in Ivanovich as late as 1959. It comes as limited surprise since:
1) the US put him on a watchlist in 1951
2) he attended a while bunch of IAEA conferences until the late 1960’s.
Still, they seem to hold firm on the idea that the name might have outlived the person (or something).
milongal: I’m not sure the word ‘friend’ quite sums him up, bless ‘im.
@Nick: Would you be able to find a full-facial photograph of Professor Szilard at the University of Chicago?
bdid1dr: https://www.biography.com/people/leo-szilard-9500919
nickpelling: Steve passes his thanks to you for your recommendation to me. I thank-you, also. B Deveson: thank-you for your reply.
Expanding on a previous post here, or elsewhere. I agree the writing at the back may have something to do with nursing. Blood types. A. B. AB. O. ML could be nursing profession (or personal) shorthand of the day for “male”?
The… I …might be a forward slash or represent a 1930s-1940s typeface space break seeing as there’s a “hang” in the G and the C. Note how I am unable to type in the capital letter I (as in: I for India) with horizontal stems to top and bottom.
The opening statement above includes phone number X3239. The back cover of Feltus’ book has W9048. Is that also a phone number?
On the Websleuths site to do with Taman (sic) Shud I have posted: Jestyn is a boy’s name.
Eamonn: Gerry Feltus confirmed a couple of years back that W9048 doesn’t actually mean anything, it was just decoration. Yes, “Jestyn” is indeed a boy’s name, but nobody quite knows where Jo Thomson’s “JEstyn” signature came from, despite numerous speculations. :-/
Hi, I’m new to this case, in fact I just read about it today. When I was a young man I worked in a Glasgow pub called The Rubaiyat. Old timers there told me that there is a strong connection with Omar Khayam’s book and the Masonic lodge. Whether that is just with Scottish masons or worldwide I don’t know. Might be a new angle ? Cheers.
Archie Versace: it’s rare to find anything linking the words Freemason and History that isn’t just hopeful nonsense, but perhaps there’s something to the story, who knows?
PS: do you have a cousin called Barney Armani? Just askin’. 🙂
W9048 seems to be the only thing in Gerry’s book that (according to him) doesn’t mean anything. He’s most likely being truthful but with all his effort to document only facts…why allow bs artwork to throw it all off?
“JEstyn” plants Rubaiyat book with coding so as to implicate “Ronald Francis” in staged suicide of Unknown Man at Somerton Beach?
Romance of the Rubaiyat: (A comprehensive directory to the myriad editions of the Rubaiyat, the Ephemeron, Edward Fitzgerald, Omar Khayyam and the lesser Persian poets: indexed by Illustrator, Publisher and Translator.) Halbach. California. 1975. 300 editions. “An unusual listing of [Ambrose George] Potter and post-Potter Bibliography Rubaiyats and related items. Shortcomings include lack of an all-inclusive index, outdated price guide and eccentric format; but valuable for listings not in Potter, and listing post-Potter items, with annotations not available elsewhere.”
The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam: an updated bibliography. Coumans. Leiden. 2010. “This book fills a gap by providing a new selection and description of almost 900 editions of the world-famous Persian quatrains: The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.” “It has been published in numerous editions: precious volumes with jeweled bindings, artist’s books, scholarly and critical editions, forgeries and fake editions, making The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam a perfect object for book collectors and lovers of poetry.”
You wouldn’t believe it, but something has been bugging me for a while….
The “Code” page to me looks like it’s done in more than 1 hand (I think I’ve mentioned this before). In particular have a look at the ‘A’. In the first line there is one pointing rights, and a more rounded one pointing left. In the crossed out line there is a broader one, with the cross bar over hanging . The next line has one more like the second one in the top row, some are more round others more triangular. etc….
Then havce a look at the formation of the B’s, D’s and P’s – and again there appear to be at least 2 separate styles (some are pointier others more curved, some curve up around the vertical stroke, others meet it fairly straight, others again leave a gap). And the ‘Q’ looks more careless than any of the ‘O’. I won’t comment on the ‘M’s because they might be ‘W’s anyaway….
Certainly some of the letters seem to have an extra flourish and or lean.
Next let’s have a look at the spacing. The last 2 lines bunch together quite a bit, but the interesting one for mine is the crossed out one – which starts very broadly spaced. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s as simple as alternating letters by different perople, because the spacings are all wrong for that….
It’s this crossed out line that really bother me, though. Assuming this was an initialised poem, all the other lines are planned to fit (lines one and 3 finish well clear of the edge of the page) but line 2 (the crossed out one) is just wasting space.
Now in the struck out MLIA and the one that remains, the formation of the letters looks similar – except the ‘A’ (which interestingly maintains a longer cross-stroke even though it is narrower and more angled).
The other thing that strikes me a little is that if you ignore the ‘C’ looking character and take out the “AB” signature (which looks more like a flourished “AR” you can almost imagine a diagonal line (roughly parallel with the crease on the ‘D’ down the page (in fact the ‘C’ almost fits nicely as a partial letter – except the shape’s wrong).
It’s not clear whether these letters were actually on the page, or indentations from another page, but suppose it’s the latter? Suppose that there were multiple pages under the one being written on, so the indentations are clear where the other page was directly on this one, but disappear where another page got in the way. The top ‘D’ and the ‘C’ might have been filled in as a ‘best guess’ and the signature may come from another instance when we were leaning on the same book.
Getting really conspiratorial, suppose the flourished ‘R’/’B’ was also a “buest guess” (you’ll noticeut has a totally different form to the other ‘R’ in the code, and while the shape looks a little more like (some of) the ‘B’s, the top loop hangs a lot lower. What if it’s a ‘K’ (that has been assumed into a ‘B’ by the analysts)? What if the signature is ‘AK’? Could it represent an “Anthony” or “Antony” (or “Tony”?) Keane?
For mine, if the code was actual pencil markings, then there are too many inconsistencies between letters for it to have been written by one person – and if it were lifted from indentations then it’s likely suffered interpretation (but in this case I think it’s incredibly unreliable because it’s possible that there were shedloads of scratchings and the police just found arbitrary ‘letters’ that roughly appeared to line up).
Finally, the (first) ‘A’ in the last row simply looks totally wrong to me – almost like it’s something else mis-interpreted (but probably not a ‘4’)…..
But none of that makes any sense….
oh, also anyone who might care, there’s a photo online of the beach as it is today that shows the narrowness of that stretch – it’s in the gallery for ‘astonising legends’ podcast episode 35 (google is your friend).
One thing that occurs to me (other than the tide) is where was the witness who saw the person on the beach wave? They were apparently ‘not close enough to make out the face distinctly’. This suggests they weren’t between him and the water. Speculating further, it woudl mean that if they were North of him, they must have turned around before passing him, otherwise they would have passed quite close to him. This would seem to suggest that they were South of the stairs (but then presumably used the stairs to leave the beach – which would have brought them closer to him again).
So taking a giant leap, I don’t think the “weren’t close enough to make out his face in that light” is quite accurate. I think more likely when they were shown the body (or picture of) they doubted it was the same person, and their mind was torn between “it must be” and “but it doesn’t quite look like him” and they explained their unsureness as “well, it was evening and we only saw him briefly”. Couple this with time of death (even if we agree that was a vague guess). We’d be talking quite a slow acting poison if he’s groggy at 7PM but still alive near midnight (wouldn’t we?) – and I didn’t think that was consistent with any theories of the poisons involved.
I think it suggests the groggy guy that evening was not SM, and is either one helluva coincidence; a stooge deliberately placed there (not sure why); or a figment of the witnesses’ imaginations…..of course, the man/men carrying a body later has it’s own problems – but what if that was mates picking up their drunk friend who had passed out by the stairs (that is, what if they were removing a person, not leaving one)?
RGOABABD = rather go on a beach and be dead
RGOABABD = rarely goes on any beach, Australian beaches deadly
Shirley: Really Geat Old Adelaide Beach And Be Damned. By the way Shirls can you tell a fellow what bloody strides SM was wearing on that damned beach. We only have a choice between two, the darkish brown, possibly striped Stamina? Crusaders (the ones that come with their own set of collectable
calling cards in the pocket), or the Marco Elasto Fit sans elasto (due to wartime shortage) in a mid ecru colour, ala those depicted in the GF Bible with a nice vista of the Olgas in the background. In the past most commentaters cunningly seem to shy away from this issue and I’d really like to get a reliable answer. What would a German pump organist be likely to wear at the damned beach on such a dead old day?.
Dear moderator, ‘r’ as in reject is missing from the code.
If it had a BRO in it we could blame the Blue Ring….although I think they’re maybe more common a little further North (seen them around Semaphore and Largs before, and definitely on the shores of West Lakes (yes it’s Lakes not Lake – although google seems to suggest only the rowing course is West LAkes, so I actually meant “John Dyer Lake”))
Milongal: a YouTube recreation indicates the short strip of sand between sea and seawall. Feltus’ book records Sgt Leane’s information on general weather conditions 30 November 1948 as cloudy early evening and hazy about 20:00. Adelaide Advertiser, page 8, records sunset that day at 19:14 and a low tide about 16:52 (slight to moderate seas) with a new moon on 01 December. Daylight Saving time was not practiced in SA between 1945 and 1970. Street lights were on by about 20:00. Wind was SW slowly backing SE. Feltus records only one witness as retrospectively commenting about mosquitoes on someone else that evening, so I place that comment by the witness as well intentioned, though possibly speculative.
A second attempt, post-glitch, to submit the following.
Feltus, chapter 12, records: 25 August 1949 response to Detective Sergeant Leane from Navy Office at Port Adelaide, “…accordingly a reasonable explanation would be that the lines are the initial letters of words of poetry or such like”.
IMHO, the purported code serves as a MacGuffin to this case.
I say the code may be a cue card for hastily jotting lines and instructions of a stage play. The first line, first letter, is W for Winifred with first letters of words of that line for her to say. The crossed-out second line begins with M for Me or ML for My Line. The third line, first letter, is again W for Winifred. The fourth line is the M for Me or ML for My Line, corrected, followed again by a vertical bar which I contend to be a (1940s typewriter?) punctuation symbol, better represented nowadays by a colon punctuation symbol. In this fourth line, the letter O with horizontal V widening to the right may be a combined cue denoting some sort of staged action takes place at O to intergrate with a gradual increase of volume. The fifth line shows someone whose name begins with U or V and the first letters of words of that line for them to say. Shakespeare?
Gosh. It’d even more tragic if the V in the fifth line was V for Vicar.
Eammon: people have run each line of the cipher through millions of documents (including the Bard) for even partial acrostic matches, but have found no hugely convincing section of text to date.
It’s entirely possible that some of the letters were misguessed by SAPOL, but even so it remains a mystery. :-/
Looks like we’re going to be revisited by the spectre of Alf Boxall, which quite frankly I look foward to. After all he has always been the odd man out and I’m sure that had he still been with us, he’d like to come clean on his role in the SM saga. It appears that he passed away in Canberra no less and to my knowledge no one dies in the nation’s capital unless they be old failed legislators with promise of a state funeral, or else those who go their underguard and thereby succumb to interrogation under conditions of extreme predjudice. Perhaps in Alf’s case, he may have felt the need to get things off his chest while still able; after all he was 89 and it would have likely been his first time away from Maroubra since ’47 and the trip down would have given him time to prep. We might also establish whether or not he and his pal the chemist Xavier Francis ever operated a powerful transmitter while living on crabs and lilli pillis up off Groote Is. In ’44.
Ships passing in The Bight, Mvs’ Boonara & Mundalla of Adelaide Steamship Co. It might prove interesting if either vessel was anywhere near home around 30/11/48 Surely someone has ready access to ‘Shipping News’ for that period.
Actually JS that’s an interesting point (about Canberra). People generally move there for work (Government/Defence) – and for the most part the only people who retire there are Canberrans who initially move to the South Coast in retirement and later realise that there’s insufficient medical facilities away from the city…..
Of course (especially if we go back a few lustra, perhaps not so much this last decade) it could be considered a large town immersed in bushland that could be an attractive, quiet place to retire for a Sydneysider or Melburnian – but I would have thought there’s plenty large country towns in NSW and Victoria that would be more attractive, unless there’s an ulterior motive to be in the capital.
I’ve always been a bit suspicious of Boxall. There is too much coincidence in the Rubaiyat for it to be totally innocuous (it strikes me more as he and J deliberately bringing attention to themselves so that they would be excluded when his Rubaiyat was produced). But of course Boxall doesn’t fit into any of my favourite theories about who SM was (to some degree the Rubaiyat doesn’t fit in very well at all – even in the more conspiratorial ideas). If Boxall and J liked puzzles then it might be conceivable that at some stage they swapped Rubaiyat’s with a puzzle in them (the acrostic and the Verse 70 note) – but that sort of misses any connection to SM (unless we get all bizarre and say that SM was Boxall and the subsequent Boxall was an imposter – but there’s more holes in that idea than a good Swiss Cheese). I still think it’s worth considering the idea that the Rubaiyat and SM’s TS slip aren’t actually related. It doesn’t take much to come up with a scenario where J gets fed up with the Acrostic she can’t solve and discards the Rubaiyat (perhaps in the car, but it doesn’t have to be). Someone else (“Francis”) comes across it (not necessarily in Nov/Dec) and decides to claim he’s found the one that the fuzz are looking for, so he rips out a chunk from the back and hands it in – and the snowball rolls from there….
2 things that strike me about the Rubaiyat link, are firstly the vague “proof” that the analysts used to show they’re the same (the paper is the same colour and texture) and the fact that every article at the time describes the TS fragment as ‘trimmed’.
A government analyst had a book and a page they were asked to prove was from the book. They were looking to include the evidence, not exclude it. The result was always going to be that it was a match. Anything that pointed otherwise would be ignored.
But let’s think about the “trimmed” paper. SM (or someone) must have ripped the page from the book, and then trimmed up the TS. So we had time (and resources) to trim the paper, but were in a hurry to dispose of the book it came from out on the street? So why would we trim the fragment anyway? If it was a way of identifying people, wouldn’t we want the tears to match the page? I can hear people suggesting – perhaps that’s why he was killed. Perhaps it was because the fragment didn’t match. But in that case how did it end up rolled up neatly back in his pocket? Wouldn’t you be keane (see what I did there) to ensure any trace of illicit activity was gone? It’s more likely (nb: MORE likely doesn’t imply LIKELY) that the fragment was neatened up and planted on the bod to support the notion of suicide (or to send someone a message) – but in that case (certainly in the spy scenario, and probably in any scenario) you’d be pretty careful to make sure that the book it cam from was mundane. And you would definitely struggle to guarantee it was handed in by chucking it in some car if you were hoping some message would get out and link to that book.
Jess’ brother- in-law Norm Carr served in the Merchant Navy from 39′ to finis and at that time he was Third Mate aboard MV Mundalla. She and another vessel, Boonara of the same line, were in particular involved with the Borneo Campaign in mid 1945, then went on to do service with the occupational forces (BCOF) post war. Carr’s service is interesting to me because he actually connects with three of our main players in certain respects. married to Jean Harkness, served in the same theatres as Jim Beaumont as well as Thomas Leonard Keane in Japan. And then of course we have him doing service pre war with Keith Mangnoson’s wartime unit which may not seem to mean much in itself, apart from the disclosure that both lads lived in the fly spot village of Larggs Nth before the war. Of some additional interest is that on inlistment in the militia he was born at Morgan S.A. in 1918, whereas on signing up for sea, he suddenly decides that he’s a limey, from Sandown UK and born there in 1920. We don’t come across him again until he applies for campaign medals and ribbons in 1992 which I find a little strange because I’m rather doubtful as to any entitlement. Does he fit into our investigation; well I think so, especially the Jessica/Kean connection and that his sea duties may have been a conduit for interaction between him and Edmund Harkness, not to mention the possibility that he may also have been a convenient conduit for SM’s appearance in Adelaide. This would include the suitcase apparently belonging to a BCOF chap named Keane, who may have had passage on his ship, either to or from Japan. While on this subject we must not pass by young Jim Beaumont GAB (Grant Alfred) who as we know, is also related to Jess through Clarice’ marriage to brother Lawson. Also never let us forget that seemingly innocuous little tube of Lion brand fluride toothpaste which was quite likely purchased by one of these three lads in Japan, bearing in mind it would certainly not have been avaikable anywhere else in 1948.
So many off-topic speculative cards. So few paragraphs. I throw in my Sister J. Cosplay wearing navy suit and a grey hat, picture card.
Speculation is where ideas come from that might subsequently turn out provable (or not) 🙂
At the risk of sounding stupid, I think either Mangnoson wasn’t involved at all or was deeply involved (ie not just a relatively innocent bystander). I don’t really believe that Roma would have been threatened over an attempted id (the threat was vague ‘stay away from the police or else’). Either the threats related to something else, or Keith was in this stuff a lot deeper than “I knew the guy years ago in the riverland”.
I did come across a stage play, or more to the point an Australian musical version of a popular British stage presentation of the mid ’20s. The general theme had to do with a fellow that stages his own death for the purpose of obtaining his share of an inheiritance. The lyrics writer was a chap named Vaiben Solomon who was born near Adelade and spent the best part of his chilhood and formative years living with his half brother in Genelg. He served as an ensign? with the British Auxilliary Navy (Thames River patrol) in ww2, then on some important unspecified Australian Government service related to modern mechanical accounting (commuters no less) During the 30s and 40s he also wrote books on the subject and travelled through Canada and the USA. He eventually returned home in 1948 where his trail ended. Apparently he died in Melbourne in 1982 aged 81. Apart from one remote possible connection with Prosper Thomson, I found no other leads that placed him as a suspect for SM or as a likely subject of interest in any other related capacity. Perhaps you might chase something down that I didn’t. PS: Co- incidently Vaiben’s son-in-law, a naval doctor was involved with the so-called Voyager Disaster in 1964 (Voynicher Disaster came much later), and later went on to become perhaps one of the world’s leading authorities on exotic animal protene poisons. How about that.
EAMON: Name of the show was ‘tons of money’ ifn you’re up to it and I don’t think you’ll have too much trouble finding the songs to test your theory, the only other that our lyricist wrote was the chart topper of 1922? titled ‘bang bang bangalor’ and that’s all folks.
Milongal: You just hit a nerve albeit unintentionally. When I said that Alf died in Canberra I was of that assumption because his death was listed as being ACT. You mentioned that oldies from Sydney might well decide on retiring to the South Coast, then bang it hit me like a bolt out of the proverbial; who is aware that there is a place down that way, which because of its presence as a Naval base, actually comes under administration the ACT? Not too many I suspect. Well I seem to recall that that’s where bloody Quentin and Gaston Harkness both ended up; Jarvis Bay ACT. Cripes are you now thinking what I’m thinkng; maybe time to get out of Dodge. Take it easy son what can they do send us to Vietnam. Don’t know about you pal but I can survive that.
No not Harkness, Quentin and Gaston were Prosper Thomson’s younger brothers, one RAAF and the other RAN and of course Alf was AIF (army). The civilian population of Jarvis Bay is about 300 and it appears that it had once been earmarked as a nuclear reactor site (you listening bids). The base HMAS Cresswell was once HQ of the Fleet Air Arm or HMAS Melbourne which sunk HMAS Voyager in 1964 and strangely my semi-related post of even date referred to that very incdent indirectly.
Yes it appears that the younger Thomson brothers were living in that tiny spot on the map called Jarvis Bay ACT when they passed on around 2007, probably in a Defence Service heritage listed cottage within the HMAS Creswell base as part of a large family grouping. There would have probably been only a few such properties available and all allocated to war veterans which means that had Alf died in Jarvis Bay which I confidently predict that he did, and had he occupied one of the other cottages closeby, then that almost certainly links him with the Jessica Harkness and Prosper Thomson clanship, probably before SM’s untimely demise in ’48. In a way it stands to reason as the three inner Sydney nresses where the three families lived at the outbreak of ww2 were very close and their pre war occupations were much the same. Prosper and Gaston may also have shared a non law abiding bent which we need to look at much more closely. Unfortunately I don’t have the means to look too much deeper so others wil have to underake the necessary follow-up inquiries.
/pedantic: Although Jervis Bay is/was “Canberra’s Beach” it is (AFAIK) a territory in it’s own right
NB: Didn’t realise Jervis Bay had a civillian population. I thought it didn’t really have a static population at all. But Wiki says it has 377 people as at 2011.
NB2: Not to be confused with Cape Jervis in SA (which we talked about when there was discussion about KI and ships).
It also says:
The Jervis Bay Territory(abbreviated as JBT) is a territory of the Commonwealth of Australia. It was surrendered by the state of New South Wales to the Commonwealth Government in 1915 so the federal capital at Canberra would have access to the sea.
It was administered by the Department of the Interior (and later by the Department of the Capital Territory) as if it were part of the Australian Capital Territory (ACT), although it has always been a separate Commonwealth territory. The perception that it is part of the ACT stems from the fact that under the terms of the Jervis Bay Territory Acceptance Act, the laws of the ACT apply to the Jervis Bay Territory. In 1989, when the ACT achieved self-government, the Department of The Arts, Sport, The Environment, Tourism and Territories took over responsibility for the JBT’s administration, and it has since been administered by various Commonwealth Departments responsible to the Minister for Territories.
……..
Looks like Dulcie’s death notice suggests Alf was living in Pagewood NSW (near Coogee) in 1991, and his death notice has ‘Hawker ACT’ (Hawker is a suburb in (West) Belconnen (ie Canberra’s North)).
Because we love clutching at coincidence of no relevance, Pagewood is bordered in part by ‘Southern Cross Drive’. Hawker is exactly 1 suburb South of (a different) ‘Southern Cross Drive’…
Milongal: looks like he wormed his way out of that one and of course pagewood is his old stamping ground…unless he had’nt officially changed his ellectoral roll details, moved down the coast then used the convience of Canberra for his service related disability treatment…I’ll just check to see what they have over at Hawker, probably a govt. detention centre. Who the heck is Dulcie and what happened to Susie. Q….
Covering a bit of old ground, and trust that none of our esteemed followers (the frozen few), are tucking into a late night treat of pate de foie gras. I don’t recall having heard of any anal probe for body temerature in Dr. Bennett’s affidavit, only his estimate of TOD, which of course has promoted no queries from the dpanel of inquisitioners. Likewise nothing regarding anal or penal evacuation (another thin captain) appear in the records. I recall once hearing how the night shift fellows down Redfern (inner Sydney) way could overide TOD estimates in cases of non suspicious exposure deaths, by simple application of artificial cold or heat so as to delay or enhance the onset of rigor mortis. I am of course suggesting the real possibility that this may have given a false estimate in the case of SM, and if there was no obvious signs of feces (another dip), then I think I would surmise that some one was trying to take the shit out of me.
GM Feltus notes, “The saki – the cup-bearer – of Persian poetry can be of either sex, and the fact that Persian does not distinguish the gender of pronouns leaves the ambiguity unresolved.”
John Sanders: I’m sorry, this site has a zero anal probe rule. Except for medieval medicine discussion and X-Files jokes.
@JS: Dulcie was his wife. Only mentioned because when she died (1991) the obit said “Pagewood”, yet when AB died (1995) it said Hawker* (the street he was in looks like a mundane, Canberran St) so he’d moved there only for the last 4 years of his life….which to me suggests moving closer to family (he had several kids and adult grandkids) rather than spooks.
Regarding ToD, I think there are biog questions (and I think ‘most everyone agrees). I think it has to have been (a lot) earlier than 2AM. And here’s why:
1) The pasty. How long does it take to digest a pasty? Where do you get pasty’s from in the middle of the night (the pie cart out the front of the railway station (or was that on the Parade back then?).
2) Assuming it was he at 7PM the night before (on the one hand it’s hard to believe it wasn’t, on the other the evidence seems very circumstantial and has me leaning the opposite way – mainly because no witnesses could conclusively agree it was him they saw), he was already in a bad way then, and my understanding is that most of the proposed possible poisons are relatively fast acting – so fighting on for another 7 hours seems a fair effort.
3) I’m sure there were other reasons that escape me now (although there was a ‘witness’ ho appeared 10 years later and talked about the man carrying a body).
Of course, if we contest #2 above (which for the most part I do) we only have the pasty to go by….yet I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that even with a big meal it should be fully digested in about 5 hours. Granted ill health and poisons might slow that process to some degree (I guess, I’m neither a doctor nor a biologist/chemist) but it would seem the absolute earliest the pasty could be eaten would be 10PM or so….
Someone (might have been you even) suggested that something like a minestrone soup with bread might appear to be a pasty in the stomach – which makes for a bigger meal and therefore takes a little longer to digest – but I’m not gonna allow much flexibility with that 10PM.
As always, though, I’d like to cite Hanlon’s Razor (or some derivative of) that where malice and incompetence equally easily explain a situation, always assume incompetence. I don’t entirely mean that everyone involved was incompetent, but at the beginning it was just a normal John Doe, and while there was a process to be followed things like ToD are simply arbitrary details for some government book keeping so nobody really questioned (or cared) whether it was correct (the typical government “I don’t give a *bleep* I just need some value in that field” – except on paper). To be absolutely fair to all parties involved, they never really seemed to consider this was anything other than an unidentified body that will eventually be claimed – and by the time people got excited about TS and the code it was probably too late to reassess those initial details even had someone wanted to.
*And now for a totally irrelevant digeression….
For those not familiar with Canberra, it is Australia’s youngest city (I think dating back to about 1912), and was very deliberately designed (supposedly by Walter Burley Griffin, but I have him arriving in Australia after Canberra was already sprouting, so not sure how much was actually his planning, and how much he just got credit for because he was in the right place at the right time (heresy, I know)). Canberra by design was built in triangles and circles (have a look at a map of Canberra – the obvious city circles (vernon circle, then London Circuit, then BArry Drive, Cooyong, Cooranderk) – and the mirror of that across the lake at the Parliamentary Circle (although perhaps the circle only appeared with ‘new’ parliament house (which is now 30 years old, I think, but you can certainly see other smaller circles all around (and the PArliamentary Circle is in fact an apex of the Parliamentary Triangle linking circles at Parliament House to the City and to Defence (via Kings Ave, Commonwealth Ave and Parkes Way)). This is a fairly stark contrast to the very gridlike cities of Melbourne and Adelaide.
Canberra sort had a very localised attitude. Each suburb has (or had) it’s own small (generally grocery) shops, with larger ‘town centres’ becoming trendy in the 50s/60s and Belconnen and Woden becoming the major focuses North and South of Lake Burley Griffin (and later Tuggeranong even deeper South than Woden – but I suspect this was a lot later). These days loosely group themselves by region with a fierce (albeit fake, I think) rivalry between North and South (with small country NSW towns (Queanbeyan, Jerrabomberra, Murrumbateman and even Yass) trying to join the fray (much like SA thinks it’s somehow in the Vic vs NSW rivalry), and broadly people talk about living in “Tuggeeranong”, “Woden”, “Weston Creek”, “Inner South”, “Inner North”, “Belconnen”, “Gunghalin” (but even within those zones people have their own little ‘sub-clans – and are even quite territorial and proud of their suburbs (unless you live in Charnwood (jokes)).
From a government perspective, Canberra is one big pissing contest, and you can tell the importance of an agency by its proximity to the Parliamentary Triangle (Defence is part of the triangle, and you’ll find ASD and ASIO have official headquarters near the Defence establishment too, while AFP and the agency formerly known as Customs are closer to the city. Human Services is way down South in Tuggeranong…..).
Hawker (where Alf lived the last years of his life) is in West Belconnen (I’ve never actually heard of a North, East or South Belconnen, but everyone West of the Barton Hwy and North of Belconnen (shopping Centre) seems to refer to the area as West Belconnen (in fact even South of Belconnen at Aranda/Macquarie I’ve heard people refer to West Belconnen – and I assumed this was because the Southern Cross Club at the Jamison Centre was formerly West’s Rugby Club). Put simply, it’s just a suburb in Canberra – it’s not particularly close to any significant Defence or Government establishments – but Canberra’s design sort of puts almost every suburb in that category.
NP: Well lets justs just amend that shall we. Are you or is anyone out there aware of any internal body temperature readings that may have been taken at the time of SMs discovery or shortly thereafter. I am personally aware of cases where deceased persons have been artificially subjected to heat/cold to defeat or enhance the onset of rigor mortis…I guess dog shit and discussions on menstrual matters are still fine, or does that stuff come under medieval medicine, presuming of course that Floret’s work scrapes into the pre modern historical era you refer to.
NP: I must also include the all important subject of possible notable post mortem soiling either by Nos. 1 and/or 2 ing. Had this not occurred, this could theoretically add weight to the assumption that SM was most probably sanitised pre delivery to Somerton Beach.
And I was wrong, WBG (or perhaps his wife) did actually design Canberra…..
Judaism is passed through maternal lines. Jessica’s Great Grandmother was Jewish. Hence, not surprising that she embraced her faith through maternal lineage. 2 cents. Been away a long while but wanted to share for those who are still following.
Misca: can’t recall seeing the maternal connection for Jessica before, though presume it went back through Ellen Lee’s people. Point me in the direction and I’ll struggle over to get the good oil. cheers js.
Not only did Wally and maid Marion lay out the plans for Canberra, they were also responsible for the design in 1916 of Griffith in the newly established MIA region of New South Wales. Now better known for its marijhuana cultivation and Mafioso crime families, than its great wine along with stone fruit etc., it was named, not as is often mistakenly claimed, after the American designers, but rather typically after Arthur Griffith, Minister of Works. If you don‘t think this has much to do with our subject for discussion, than you‘d be wise to think more carefully and get with the program.
Milongal: That last aside was a general advisory note and certainly not directed or aimed at anyone in particular. Griffith became a hub for itinerant axis internee immigrants, released from regional camps like Hay and Cowra after ww2. An earlier influx had occurred after ww1 when land was allocated for soldier settlement farms which by and large proved to be a dud and these allotments were subsequently taken over by immigrants more suited to farming during the depression era. By 1948 it was a virtual melting pot of mixed races and a breeding ground for anti sociocial activity such as might more generally be expected to occur in the larger multi cultural suburbs of larger cities which Griffith certainly was not. Of course in due course the Calabrian mafia came to town and created their own more organized form of crime which then spread its tentacles to Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and eventually the Capital. Activities like vehicle theft and rebirthing, insurance fraud, extortion, gang murder and take over of other criminal enterprises would be typical and of course much later in the seventies Griffith became better known as Australia‘s drug capital.
Unlike some of our site celebrities like Keith, Jim and two of the Thomson brothers, Alf never had cause to fire a shot in anger during his much exaggerated war service. His initial posting was mainly carried out with an army surveillance unit in the far north of Australia on watch for enemy insertion which fortunately did not eventuate. His subsequent service in the New Guinea/Bouganville region took place after hostilities had ceased, with his work mostly to do with the gathering up of surplus vehicles/equipment and shipping of same back to mainland Australia. It has also been suggested that he was some form of covert intelligence operative and that is simply hogwash, unless of course it was for a non specified foreign power like Israel, or one of the Soviet nations. His elevation to the rank of Lieutenant would have had as its basis, the authority necessary to undertake his acquisition regarding disputed ownership of property and not, as has been suggested, a sign of any particular promotion qualifications. His long and much valued service to his adopted country is to be commended, though I think Alf Boxall would be first to admit that he was no hero, so please don’t try to make him one.
Alfred Boxall, you are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so. Anything you say will be taken down in writing and may be used in evidence. Do you understand?… I think yon smoking gun has just brought down the whole flock of 7 emus and most of the evidence is at our grasp…Hang fire and I’ll put it all together, but it’ll take a little time.
Alf Boxall has unrefutable connections with a couple of old bikey mates from his army days, one a master mariner (ship captain working for Nat. Chinese), the other an alleged Jap/German sympathiser and consorter. One with a CIS/ASIO file (declassified from secret) and includes alleged passing of info. re uranium deposits to known communists in ’52 amongst other similar naughty passtimes. Signatory to the Paki’s book and a known crank with a violent past, oh and yes a credited organiser of the militant AWU. All served with the Nacaroos together and one later saw service like Alf, with Water Transport (engs) as Ships Mate/Capt. The latter is interesting to the extent that he was a patient at 115 Heidelberg in ’42; he was also a chronic sufferer from malaria and was known to have had an operation to his left eye (ptergium) in Egypt ’42. I have him sort of dead in Brisbane about ’72 so don’t get overly exited. This may not prove to be as big as ‘ poor felow my country’ but it has my hackles raised to a higher level than usual. Does anyone know who I’m talking about; you all bloodywell should. PS: brothers- in- arms is the key word.
Lt. Alf Boxall’s war time pals, the brother’s Grim (sic), Dave & Alf Herbert of Curtin’s Cowboy’s fame and later 12 Water Transport Group must all have been good men with horses because of the very nature of their wartime meanderings in the rough trackless terrain of the ‘deep north’. We know plenty about big brother Alf or Xavier as he was more famously known, but as for young Dave the master mariner, not so much. The last we hear of him is by way of a postal address c/o the legendary Vestey’s cattle station conglomerate at Rum Jungle (uranium) NT. in early 1948. Some search records have him deceased at Bridgeman Downs Qld. on 19/7/76 though more work needs to be done for confirmation. The boys were all knocking around the Sydney waterfront from ’44 and as instructors with families would surely have been living at home with wives Susie Sadie and Phyllis. After their war in the rear, we’re not sure whether they maintained regular contact but we know that Alf Herbert went back to Darwin for awhile then settled in Cairns whereas his brother may have stayed in the territory and worked for Vestey’s mob, perhaps even on one of company’s live cattle shipment runs to Asia (Philippines). Of course we know that Alf Boxall stayed in the service and went off to PNG for a couple more years and got involved in the war surplus pickings. He would have been in Rabaul for the War Trials which deserves some consideration and the rest of his civilian working life at the Randwick bus workshops. It may also be of some interest if we could put it into context but it seems during their days in the coast watching business, according to Alf, they regularly took patrols into the Timor Sea which at the time could well have allowed them to make contact with the Nippon enemy had they the means, either directly through a liason or by radio. Alf Herbert had lived with Japanese pearlers pre war and spoke working class pidgin (pinyin) at the very least. He openly stated that he prefered being in their company than with the white administrators who he worked for as a dispensay pharmacologist and aboriginal welfare officer. There were informants in ’49 who claimed SM was a mate of theirs from Darwin but very little further information though it’s certainly a plausable suggestion that he could have been a Territorian who had ample opportunity to slip through to Adelaide without coming under notice, especially had he been a station worker in a remote region. He may have even shown up in the company of a mate, someone from Rum Jungle perhaps, someone who got out by the skin of his teeth and subsequently went back alone to the uranium mine.
David Francis Herbert almost certainly returned to his old seafaring life after ww2 , this supposition being attested to by his giving a contact address of c/o Vasseys at a po box in Darwin early in 1948, post dating others in Sydney then in Cairns (brother Xavier was also living in Cairns there at around that time and I’d nit be surprised to find Susie Boxall there as well). Vassey’s was a huge cattle empire and had its own extensive shipping operations world wide including Blue Star Line and many other subsideries including some with Adelaide offices. Reasearches will be familiar with how innacurate service records can be; In this case I’m looking at something that is quite the opposite and it raises some serious questions concerning his reported death in 1976. In early 1970 the Repatriation Department wrote to CARO to get war service confirmation regarding a claim that had been lodged for some time of benefit in David’s name. To my thinking, it is most likely that this might wel have been lodged by his wife Phyllis who was endeavouring to prove her elligibilty for a service widows pension (she had just turned 60 which was the age criteria at that time). It is unlikely that David was the actual claimant because he would most certainly have had in his possession al the documentary roof of his service. The applicant Mrs. Herbert was most likely not able to provide the necessary proofs herself and reasons for this could only be that she was not living with him at the time of his apparent demise nor did she have access to his papers. We can further assume that she really also only suspected Dave was deceased which further points to the probability that he was long gone from her life by then. So why does she lodge claim for widows pension if hubby is still living, and close by at that. After all, we have a Billion $ Grave search giving Yaronga cemetery and the date 19/7/76 (7years after the claim date). something seems to be wrong and my suspicion is that there is an assumption of death only and that the alleged interment could infact merely relate to an RSL inspired service plaque. Its a pity that we don’t have photo on his film which would enable comparison with those of SM which is disappointing, there is not even a vague description of him which is a little strange to say the least; to offset this discrepency ,we do have many of his big brother Xavier and one of his dear old mum Frances with which we might make some comparisons for family similaritues of feature. Xavier certainly does come up well in most categories including height, hair, eye colouring, interesting ears and the sloping forehead, he was always a physical excercise fanatic and of strapping appearance. The reason for Susie Boxall being in Cairns is because of her husband Alf’s two year posting to PNG and it being the closest mainland city for military personell R&R etc. with adequate air services to and fro.
Amy Victoria Scammell was the maiden name of old mọther Herbert and it is said that she was deemed to have been rather, shall we say, lax in private. Two of her children died in infancy, possible of congenital syphilis and we know from his own admissions that Xavier also had the disease, though he being an old style accredited apothecarist refered to it as yaws and so he probably had remedial conconctions to keep it latent. It is interesting to note that neither of the boys became a father in later life and so perhaps they both had cause to practice safe sex. Sadie Norden was a Jewess who met Xavier on a ship bound for England in the mid thirties but they didn’t marry until much later in life and the great man was also known to be somewhat lax in his own private life. He was considered to be a difficult man to deal with, being both selfcentered and cantancerous with a big tendency to get physical without to much antagonising. I can amagine him having to take orders from his younger brother Dave, his commanding officer in the army and being most indignant because of his lower rank. The brothers were also way apart in their stated religious preference, one being C of E and the other RC, though surely that’s not sufficient cause to have one’s own brother bumped off…Ask Cain what the beef was between he and Abel ; you might be surprahsed. I really do feel that WE need to go further down the track a little more with this one, in view of the anomaly in Dave’s file and that niggling thing about that scarlike crease between the upper nose/eyebrow region and of his chronic malarial affliction which is well documented…. Dave seems to have been in 115 Hiedleberg same time as Prosper I think and what’s strange is that he never had a posting in Victoria though on second thoughts it could be explained away, had he landed in Melbourne port on return from Bombay mid ’42.
When I entered the random letters from the paper into a Vignere Cipher, two possible outcomes out of twelve possible outcomes had words between letters that stood out to me:
MAIL TIMES PM
BOAT TIMES AM
Does anyone here think there is meaning behind the unciphered words? Consider that he was found close to the beach (boat) and maybe that was the time of death (am)? Or something to do with the mail or the post (mail) and a time stamp (pm)?
Rei Jemizu: For what its worth, and we may as well use Adelaide as a good example. If I were a fresh fruit merchant and I had a customer Luigi Danetta in Kangaroo Island and needing to be supplied with 100cwt of apples on the morning tide morrow; I would first have to be cognizant as to corellation between to-days pm. closing mailtime and the mail packet sailing time on the following am. After arranging such detail I could possibly then cable to advise Luigi that his nicely ripening ‘pink ladies’ are on board and ready to. On the other hand it could also refer just as easily, and in much the same way I guess for example to the sanction contractor Kaldor who is communicating the following message to his client Danetta. ” Nicely ripening SM on board KI mail packet am. Delivery Somerton Beach busted stairway pm. Trust that my fairly straight forward assessment of your translation is enlightning; And by the way, thanks for the opportunity to remind folks of the prefered beach landing delivery as opposed to the dated Melbourne/Adelaide mailtrain theory.
All seems to be unusually quiet out there in SM land and I’m wondering if any of you three have been able to check out the NCOU or 12 water transport gallery pics. for Captain Dave Herbert, O.C. of Alpha Coy. (NCOU) as yet. Unfortunately my equipment is somewhat antiquated and rather agricultural in its ability for effective search by modern standards. Also its a little on the small side (a deal less than 2 by 3 inch inch screen), and so effective magnification of the Curtin’s Cowgirls or smallships’ lads tend to be rather frustrating to say the least. It’s not that we third world isolationists are prone to crying poormouth, but we could certainly do with a little help from our friends occasionally, especially with regard to effective research accessability and the like.
NCOU was basically set up as a highly mobile cavalry commando very similar to similar units employed by the Boers against the British forty years prior to its formation. Although they would have been reasonably well set up equipment wise for their assigned duties, individual troopers, being basically just drovers at heart, would have carried with them quite a few make shift items of their own personal preference (jack gear in military terminology). Items mainly made up from bits and pieces of broken down tools and the like, so as to improvise manufacture of factory made items that were unavailable to them. Things that could be utilised for jobs that they may not have originally been intended for. Amongst the contents of his alleged suitcase we find things such as the cut down sheffield? table knife which would have covered a good general purpose role and in my view an absolute must for any respectable saddle bum. Of course we never ever got to see the broken scissors (one arm), but i have seen similar set up; being carried by old drovers for the main purpose of doing on the spot hoof repairs and stone removal, also mighty handy as a means of self defence or preparing bush tucker. While we’re in the that area lets have a good hard look at the little hoof brush with its adhered dried black powdery residue which apart from blackening horse hooves and applying various medicina concoctions thereto, could also most certainly be a fine piece for stencil work on the farm or at sea. Ok you’ve all heard this okd stuff before and from me in particular, which of course doesn’t sound all that dar off the money, but what do they do for us at the end of the day. Now what if I told you that I could bring them altogther with one single additional item, one that has so far remained a total mystery and though regularly commented upon over the years , it has defied many brave though futile attempts to give it a name. I’m now absolutely (postively, unrefutably, one hundred percent) cerain that I know exactly what the so called ‘loupe’ was made from and what its original function was. But apart from its then having been converted to some simple utilitarian device, the purpose of which I know not, I absolutely adore it for its affrontery; I”ll come up with a gem rest assured. Looking over the standard NCOU photos on line there is a group shot of smartly dressed officers of the unit and whilst I’m not able to identify my Captain Herbert, I couldn’t help but note that most are sporting the ecru coloured Keane tie as opposed to the usual darker khaki general ussue form. Many of the other items of clothing and sundries are well known as being of Sydney manufacture eg shirts, trousers, shaving gear etc. so I guess that does stand out as a likely pointer to the owner having links to the that fine city on the harbour.
So tell us Pete, who did Makarov give the note to if it wasn’t SM? Surely it could not have been pucker Ron Francis or dead honest Tibor Kaldor, the Meyers traveller. I guess there may have been other bad guys who were inclined to wear their tootal ties heart to sword and not arse about like our unknown man.
Now we can move right along to that fine old piece of technologically advanced equipment, the legendary Green’s patent pipe and cigar lighter, commonly designated ‘Allume benzine windproof multi-purpose pocket’ in military jargon. There were two specific occupations during the 30s/40s era that would have found such a handy device quite indespensable, those being the Cavalry horseman, riding out in a bad blow or a deck officer attending to his assigned ship-board duties in a gale. In fact neither would intentionally be caught dead without his reliable liitle Green pocket lighter. Perhaps our man SM did follow one, or perhaps even both of these trades, but for some reason he was caught dead without his. Perhaps he was not able to purchase the maker’s particular brand of flint or fluid in Adelaide where only non compatible Zippo types were available. Had he been in possession of his, he was most likely to have carried it safely in that well worn fob pocket of his Stamina/Crusader trousers. Alas we will never know, but it does bring to mind a personal, though possibly unrelated memory, if you’ll allow me to stray. It’s my far off recallections of an old ‘real’ native born, ‘north ender’ stockman cum black-tracker and later commando of the Pacific theatre; who after hostilities of ww2, became an instructor in that manly sport called bayonet fighting. We being his new batch of disposable cannon fodder, more fittingly termed replacements were understandably quite mortified, so this old spear toting warrior would face us shaking his quivering twelve foot roo killer and bellow out..”Only two kinda pfellers in dis man’s plurry army; Der quick an der plurry dead..What pfellers you’s gonna be? you’s vile li’le bagsa possum poo!…ahhhhh!” then come charging. No guessing the state of our composure, not to mention our new army issue cotton khaki under garments.
I’ve started crudely dropping pins on a map to mark locations that may (or may not) be of interest regarding SM. Feel free to add other suggestions on what should be marked:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IbTb5mF5o5d5umVCJcW5TbgFpn0&usp=sharing
It was originally intended to show some of the distances in the immediate Glenelg area (which are often understated, I think), but evolved to a bigger picture of some of the stories that perhaps show the (geographical) magnitude of Adelaide (and Australia). My biggest point is the distance SM must have covered by foot if the conventional stories about Railway stations, St Leonard’s buses and Jess’ house are to be subscribed to….
Oh, haven’t dropped any Sydney locations – mainly because I don’t know Sydney well enough to look them up easily. But over time they may come….
Milongal: Thanks for the kind invitationion. In my view a bloke the likes of our SM would most certainly have needed the odd wet and a pasty before his untimely departure so these are my picks, puting a 1948 perspective on my own choices of watering holes. First cab off the rank would be the old Duke of York, the bushies pub, closely followed by the Strathmore, Gresham, Adelaide, Rundle and Govenor Hindmarsh. If the Arkaba and Crossroads were going in those days and had he been after a last piece of tail, they would certainly have been a temtation. But my pick of the lot would of course have been the Pier at Glenelg with its close proximity to Somerton and the end of the world for a pasty and a last quiet pint (15oz S.A.), followed by a short stroll along the Seawall road to oblivion. Such a pleasant final hour that woud have been for such a man of his stature and standing within that fabled secretive and much lauded organization, The NKGB (sick).
The enlarged spleen instinctively has me thinking a boozey day, but then you’d assume booze was surely something they were used to detecting (and prolonged booze would have affected other organs) – and there was no mention of it.
I’ve occasionally thought it would be an interesting coincidence if the ‘drunk on the beach’ was exactly that.
Found a QLD paper that appears to have a slightly different side profile (it might be the printing process, or that they edited to make it look like it wasn’t a slab photo turned 90degrees, but this photo looks different to others I’ve seen – especially an apparent mole on the side of the forehead (or is that a printing flaw))
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203224135
Milongal: that has to be a fake copy of the Truth, there was no conspiracy in the article. 🙂
But seriously, that might be a really good thing, because I made a request for missing copies and editions of the Truth to be digitized a while back, on the basis that it always seemed to draw its stories from a different well to other papers. 🙂
The enlarged spleen instintively has me thinking a woozey day, brought upon by the dibilitating effects of a recurrent malarial infestation in which that hardy old organ keeps battling away gamely,as is its want, and doing its best get on top of the problem. Many an ex serviceman undertaking wartime duties in regions prone to the bug, were likely to succumb to its effects over and over again, long after repatriation from such zones. I’m sure Byron has covered similar ground in the past, but a reminder is perhaps rather timely considering that we may be heading along a new jungle path so to speak…Well I seem to be wandering off in that particular direction, albeit alone most likely but I’m well used to that, not being a team player in the true sense.
NP: If you look at the whole page and pick random letters you can actually come up with some Russian-sounding names…. 😛
@JS: We’re all wandering (or was that wondering) alone, and none of us like any theories that sound any nicer than ours…
NP: Rereading your comment (and remembering I grew up in Adelaide where “The Advertiser” (which doesn’t even claim to be news) and “The News” were the local rags) it’s certainly an interesting take that “the Truth” (of which I know nothing other than it was on trove) might source its stories differently. I struggle with the idea of the police (officially) releasing different photos to different papers, but I guess sometimes there are plenty of channels (some more legit than others).
It’s particularly interesting that others have publicly highlighted that some of the photos have inconsistencies suggesting editing and we now have one that seems to be different to others – perhaps endorsing that view, but perhaps clouding the reasons why (if one news source has a less modified pic it sort of suggests any modifications aren’t part of a cover up, but rather ‘sanitising’ it for public consumption – or something).
Phyllis Patricia Herbert (aged 80) interred/cremated Ballina NSW. The simple plaque in East Ballina cemetery appears to be a VA pensioner special, with the inscription giving only her full name, dates of B & D along with ‘sadly missed’, though by whom, we are left to wonder. What to make of this I’ m not sure, however since her hubby David was unceremoniously put away in ’76? at Brisbane, she has finally taken her own leave two hundred kilometers south near the place of her childhood. I can’ t help thinking that it was a bit of a come down for both of her from the heady days when she was married to a Blue Star Line ship Captain and de mobbed,former dashing cavalry commando officer (with malaria). The most interesting thing I picked up on was that who ever tucked her in, apparently was nit aware that she gad once been ‘The loving wife of David Francis’. At least in her younger days she had gotten to be a guest at gala functions; having mixed with the rich & famous such as the little cockney wordsmith, H.G. Wells and like celebs. of a bygone age.
By the close of 1948 the presence of high yield, fissionable grade uranium oxide at a place known locally as Rum Jungle was hardly a secret, this being contrary to what the Australian government would have had people believe. After all hadn’t they paid out a handsome finder’s fee of fifty thousand pounds to old Jack White for his discovery of the stuff in 1949, much to the displeasure of the local tribal elders. Others from nearby Darwin who claimed to know of its existance years before were also known to have been a little disappointed by the guesture. The Vestey cattle and shipping empire, owned the land upon which the deposits laid and amongst its employees were to be found the brothers Dave and Alf, both of whom had worked at various well qualified legitimate trades in the far north for years on and off. During the more recent war years both had served as coast watchers with a unit of cavalry commandos, patroling all over that vast expance of uninhabitable area that had now become so desireable. They were known to be experts on infiltration/exfiltrartion routes from Batchellor (Rum Jungle) to the Timor Sea and beyond. Both were widely travelled internationally as well as being familiar with the local tribal customs and they spoke several languages including Chinese pinyin and Japanese. Following Americas succesfull deployment of its newfangled Atom Bomb in 1945, many of the world’s other would-be powers couldn’t wait to get their hands on the major component uranium. Therefore Australia, being only too willing to help out, through its Department of Trade & External affairs was desirius of selling the stuff on the open market as a quick fix for depleted finances attributed to its recent massive war expenditure. With Herbert ‘Doc’ Evert, the respinsibl minister at its helm, two particular customers were soon identified, both former allies in the war and assessed as being eligible for prefered nation privliges. Unfortunately for him, and to his great consternation, in the USA an upstart Democratic senator named McMahon had as recently as 1945 introduced a bill relating to the ‘best practice’ use of atomic energy which Australia was just now about to conform to, and which sought to preclude Doc’s prospective buyers from becoming trustworthy users of our good aussie ore. Now apart from our two lads aforementioned, there were another pair of fairly capable brother-like ex military officers on the scene who though perhaps unknown to the others, were also in the uranium loop and what’s more they had very close ties with the good doctor and his underlings, two bright chaps from Sydney with impeccable knowledge of soviet trade and tradecraft. Notwithstanding, it seems most unlikely that the two teams could ever have gotten their respective heads together for mutually benefitial exploitation of the unacceptable and unfair restrictions niw being imposed upon them; that is if either had taken it upon themselves to arrange for alternate sales/delivery arrangements to the prefered customers. The first couple may have been placed at an initial advantage, in that they had the means to arrange for muletrain delivery to the coastal shipping links and onwards to any destination, whereas our other team would have had to initiate a more compliated plan using aiir transport so as to include certain elements within a particular government structure, DCA in which brother number one was employed as a senior pilot and a landing strip research officer. Whether any deals were ever completed renains a mystery and I for one think it most unlikely due to several areas of incombatabability between the proponents and in actuality it is considered well possible, even likely that competition may have led to certain negative external forces intervening to circumvent the success of both intended covert uranium ore sales transactions. As a postscript to the events described, real or otherwise, Australia commenced exporting uranium to the United Kingdom under the oversight of a new federal government in the early ’50s in compliance with its international obligations. A man named Bob was sacked from his position as unofficial head of the Australian Secret Intelligence Organisation for being too close to certain persons within the former Labour government; and another probable former military officer whose identity remains undisclosed to this day, was found dead at Somerton beach at dawn on the first day of Australias summer season 1948, perhaps the victim of foul play, maybe not. Finally, as a consequence of the international agreements formulated to protect the brave new world from nuclear anhilation, children all over the world were being given the name of its chief proponent, that great man of peace Senator Brien McMahon. A lad born in October of 1947 and christened Robin McMahon Thomson of Adelaide South Australia was one such child, but alas he is now long gone and so it seems only fitting to dedicate this post to his memory. lest we forget.
John, yes, Bob Wake was “Phil’s Friend” of the Petrov inquiry. Wake obviously had a few kangaroo’s loose in the top paddock and Doc Evatt was just as crazy (“Get their names! Get their names!). Evatt had cerebral syphilis and the split of 1955 that did so much damage to the Labour Party was certainly the result of Doc’s paranoia brought about by the neurosyphilis.
It occurs to me that the spy theorists seem to think everything is deliberate. Even if some angle of the spy ideas is true, not every detail can possibly be planned – in particular while it might be possible to guess approximate reactions around the time evidence came to light, it is absolutely impossible to foresee how we would interpret it 60 years later – in fact in any cover up there must be some implicit assumption that if certain things are secret for 10 years that’s good enough. Increasingly, a lot of what I read (not necessarily hear) requires people to have had foresight on exactly how the investigation would progress and stall decades later – I and I simply can’t buy that.
I’m not dismissing the idea he could have been a spy (or similar), but reiterating an ongoing opinion that the fore-planning at best would have been a lustrum or a decade – so any cover up must have had that sort of a timeframe in mind (hashtag just saying)
Milongal: each deliberately placed or contrived item or feature is a step further into the kind of looking-glass world that gave us WMD.
I’m not going to be caught out with theories perse, because mere mention of the word hints of indecision; hypothesis on the other hand can be discussed and debated upon according to their relative merits. I would like to think that my hypos are based on my own personal realstic assesment of the facts; facts from which we might consider and assess the weight of the available evidence as it comes to hand. If I have an intuitive feeling about some detail, I like to get it out there for comment and critique even though at first buff it might sound implausble and so much the better. I also love the distraction of humour which I always assumed might put people in a more relaxed frame of mind when discussing delicate matters that might lead to misunderstanding such can be the case with gender Mirth does not seem to hold much weight in this age of social directness and accompaning lack of willingness to engage in jestive frivilous banter, which I find depressing tl the point of distraction.
@NP: Exactly. The more certain we imagine details to be, the more precise our incorrect conclusion (or something?).
@JS: To me ‘most everything is a hypothesis. Pretty sure I’ve made the point before that even some of the most fundamental ‘facts’ of the SM story (especially his morning in the Adelaide Railway Station) are just a bunch of guesstimates and assumptions built on a whole bunch of flaky evidence which itself is somewhat questionable….
I sort of get that people think I’m quick to shoot ideas down (and I’ve never offered one of my own), but I suppose my approach is to question whether what is being presented as fact is fact or is just supposition….increasingly, I suspect we’ll never really know the full detail of who SM was and how he came to be lying dead on an irrelevant beach in what is essentially the middle of nowhere….
Interestingly, 10-15 years ago I expected the opposite – that we would have some certainty about who he was and what he was doing. But I sort of need to add that if he was known to ‘Higher Powers’ then we will never know who he was beyond what we’re allowed to know (I have a rant waiting in that vein which so far I’ve saved you lot from), and if he was more mundane than that, then we lose knowledge of who he was each time someone related tot he case dies….
Not only are we going to name him, we’ll find out what killed him, what he did to deserve ending up dead on time and what’s more, we’ll also catch his assailant(s), be they animal, vegetable or mineral. Hope my optimism is catching because we certainly need some fresh milk stirred into our lumpy pessimistic old uncle toby’s porridge…Now if someone can tell me how certain we are that Jessica wrote verse 70 in the Boxall book please do. If confirmed positively, it would enable me to ease up on a guilty looking suspect that I’ve had in my sights; Not only for the smallish handwriting, but also for the fez girl and if Jessica didn’t do 70, as I suspect, it would be oh so nice. Might also give us a little added momentum which we could certainly do with.
John Sanders: Derek Abbott has seen plenty of her handwriting, and confirms that the verse 70 writing is hers (though he doesn’t know what to make of the “JEstyn” bit). So… back to your lumpy old porridge, you big old stirrer, you. 😉
If Derek is an authority on handwriting, like our other Abbott is an authority on parlaimentary subtleness, then options may still be on our breakfast table..A good dose of All-Bran will probably work out..And in passing, my person of interest could still have done the picture.
If I could convince my sons to take the the DNA tests, they would be the final proof of what I have been telling you, for years now. Both of my sons had the same father. You can’t ask for anything more. Now that DNA has been done on the long-dead so-called Somerton Man, SOMEBODY of your correspondents should be able to get a full readout/discussion (besides the thoroughly boring reference to Thomas Jefferson).
bd
Bdid1dr: Yup, T.J. the great fondling father, how could you wish it on anyone, black (specially), white or brindle to be related to the swine. What did his illegally constitued so called Delaration of Independence do for folks like native Americans. Right yair, send out a couple of freshly promoted soldier camp followers like Lewis and Clarke (marcus) to make trick-or-treaties with The Nations. Then teach em how to use a daisy air rifle, then invite the heathens back to the whisky tango swamp camp called Wishington for a pow wow and make ratification formal. Course most of the redskin chiefs went and got themselves scalped before they crossed the Missouri and as for poor Lewis, the proposer and co signatoree, he somehow, and quite uncharacteristically, managed to blow his brains out just before the party. So much for the treaty sez Tom; “Well I Tried!”. Rest assured Bids Tom Jefferson would not share anything with a true gent like SM who may yet prove to be a Shakelford; Also we must not forget for a second, a probable relative of your own ex hubby Lee the Zodiac Killer.
whoops, I meant ‘ Illegally constituted………Declaration of Injuneered Dependance’ silly ol’ me.
Bdid1dr: I’m sure most of we (the few) are sympathetic to your claims, however you must be cognizant of the dead ends that Nick, Misca anors. came up with right from the outset, dead ends that don’t back your input claims. Are we not seeing some aspect of the case that defies reasonable fact based logic. You must tell where we’re going wrong. So please help us to help you get to the bottom of your family dilemma and to provide some degree of closure (hate that word).
An upgrading of the Rum Jungle spurline was commenced in early 1948 to facilitate the proposed new uranium mine exploitation. The area had during the late war had a US and RAAF air strip there. The rail link seems to have been most intuitive considering that the discovery of the ore site was apparently not made until 1949 (1948 by some accounts). Alf and his brother Dave went to work on the line as fettlers about February but did not stay until completion towards the end of the year. Perhaps they went south to Adelaide in late ’48 for the airshow but who knows. Dave later moved to New Guinea and Alf settled in Cairns where he took up flying, dabbled in his hobby of electrical wiring and did locum work in his qualified profession of Pharmaceutical dispenser. He alo wrote the odd novel in hís spare time. Just so you know.
The missing ‘backup’ to my claims, goes way back to the Zodiac Killer’s mother. Her sister came to the US, on the same boat. The sister married a John Murray, who lived ‘just around’ the other side of Mount Tamalpais. So, I’ll leave it up to you to claim an identification of the Zodiac Killer.
You MAY be allowed into the California State Police archives. We’ll see !
bd
And NO, it was not Preston Shackelford. Howsomever, Preston Shackelford (the car thief who drove like the madman (no headlights and 40 or 50 mph through all of the neighborhoods on Mount Tam and surrounding towns) did kill his younger brother Mark. Mark was walking on his way home from the nearby Junior College, when he was killed by an “unknown” car driver. ummm-hmmmm.
The local newspaper (The Record-Bee) can tell you a whole lot more. My mother was working for the local Judge when ‘what’s her name and the Black Panthers invaded his court room and held him hostage.
I was working for the Postal Service Headquarters in San Francisco, when the Panthers tortured my boss’ identical twin brother (San Francisco Police Officer) before killing him.
Old song: “Those Were the Days My Friends” . Yeah, like hell they were !
bd
Bd: And what ever became of Aileen’s husband John Murray. Is it possible that his features were like SM’s. We know that Eileen had children after 1948 and so we will assume John was the dad; anyhow just like your father-in-law Bill and that silly old fake George Taylor, he was far too young to have been our man. Any more clues or thoughts on the matter and we’ll get on the case youbetcha hon.
The “Zodiac ” murders began at Lake Herman. Lake Herman was most-often visited by Lee Erwin Shackelford (Preston Shackelford’s brother) and Lee Erwin’s best friend Kenny Burns IByrnes?) I’ve posted this information before — —.so, I’ll crawl back into my parents very interesting life story : “Adventures in Purifying Uranium”. Also of interest to me, anyway, was the use of nuclear waste products to supposedly shrink my tonsils and adenoids (within a year of my birth). I was also exposed to Co-60.
So, maybe I’ll start signing off as “Nuclear Woman” ….. “NW” — just to add a little confusion without lying even one bit !
NW-Bdid 1-dr
Bd: The available information suggests Herman. Didn’t your m-i-l Noele bring lee back to see the grandparents in 1958 aboard the old Orsova. I think old man Park was working with AAEC Lucas Heights then, would that be right. That’s a coupla years before your own folks the Milllers came over to Sydney on the Oriana and visited our famous Zoo at Taronga Park, across the way from Millers Point. Mum was working with San Raph. newspaper and dad had just retired from his tuition work at SQ, would that be about right? We know all that honey, but you must try and follow with the SM line of inquiry. Do you have anything at all in your vast personal memory bank that might help us get further along with our related work because quite frankly the state of your adenoids are not particularly relevent to the import investigations at this point.
For the sake of easy access I’ll park this one here and risk offending the ghost of Joan Fonteyn. It does seem that an RAAF LAC named Donald David Thomson was most likely a patient at 115 Hiedelberg in September ’42 at the same time as his namesake Prosper. We are aware that his service details are not recognized as such, for he comes up as a casevac on 9/9/42 to Nhills (RAAF Sale). A secret file is still current for a person of that name which is most peculiar because it allegedly supports a wartime incident, though it was not created until the mid seventies. This is initself highly suspicious so it probably means an internal cover up, if only we could ascertain whence oyr lad was evacuated and why. I’m reasonably sure that this is the person refered to in the Fonteyne post and not the commie or the anthropologist. I happen to recall that in the mid seventies there was a deep cover operation in Sydney involving a principal named Thomson who had a long history (going back to the fifties see Jim Cavenagh) of similar cunning stunts, along with his accomplice Ron Bankton and they were on this occasion allegedly conspiring to obtain arms for FUNCIPEC. Then we have an associated group of old 2/2 nd. Commandos out of Timor Lesse setting up shop in Darwin with some Dilli expats to take up their cudgells against a hundred thousand well led Indonesian Special Ops. forces. That might be what the hullabaloo was all about; our post informant Joan, Ruth whatever certainly knew something which we couldn’t have known, which means that he/she, apart from beibg well connected, might well have been on about the SM case. It may also be possible that we have ourselves an audience and we coukd certainly use their professional skills, perhaps also a little stipend for our discretion.
Margaret Hookham did in passing make mention of the fact that DD Thomson was Alf Boxall’s boss, though at what point we don’t know. For instance over at 12 small ships his direct superior was David Herbert who had also been his company commander over at NCOU. Later they both worked in New Guinea as war surplus dealers but not on the same team. Now if we look at the bigger picture, the big boss at Nackaroos was Bill Stanner who was in private life Dr. William Stanner &c. Anthroplogogist who specialised in all things Aboriginal. Now we come to Dr. Donald F. Thomson &c. Anthropologist who also specialised in all things Aboriginal He was an RAAF officer who apparently worked up north with the likes of Naval Lt Paymaster and code man Zelman Cowen. Unfortunatately Sqdn Ldr. Thomson doesn’t rate a mention over at Natarchs, apart from about a million pages on him as a civilian up Arnhem Land way in the ’30s as Doctor Thomson.
Funcipec (Cambodia) Fretlin (Timor Lesse) s.a.b.
If it’s at all possible that there is some record available at the Loveday Internment Camp museum, someone might like to see if we can connect the suitcase clothing laundry marks for a possible match. The particular barracks is 14B and from what I can understand the inmates were probably mostly Japanese with the laundry set up run by someone with years of pre wartime experience. Certainly capable of handling plenty of business, civil and military.
A young police constable, in 1941 co authored a rather unflattering report concerning a most unsavory character named Alfred Francis Herbert in Sydney, referring to his anti nationalist leanings, his having contracted venereal disease fom half castes in NT and his having married a jewess. His name was George Marshall. We note that a young investigator with the Prices Commission of that name was found dead from an apparent OD of barbs. in a bushland park at Mosman in 1945. I think that it’s most likely mere coincidence, but it’s nonetheless worth the mention that Alf Herbert, a qualified dispensing pharmacist, was himself living in Mosman with his jewess at that time.
I think it is a coincidence but, as always, wow. There was a George Francis Gell Marshall who was a police constable from Sydney and it’s most likely that he was the co-author of said document. Alfred is an interesting character…
Misca: ……”A ratbag spends five minutes every morning transfering virginia blend cigarettes into an old menthol pack to save an expensive round”. Same feller Alf, though much later, 14/4/79 SMH page 11 and probably co-incidental as well.
Alf was a prolific letter writer and always in pencil, mainly to his wife and aĺways sent a card on her birthdays 3/12 if away. He was not known to wear sox, was a horseman from a young age “but I loathed bloody nags” and mostly liked neat though casual attire like shortsleaved flap pocket tropical shirts with casual unbelted slacks. He loved messing with electrical devices, was known to be a Nipponofile, was most likely a good mate of Alf Boxall from their service together in Nackaroos, then later when Boxall and his brother Dave were posted to Small Ships in Sydney, was a registered chemist and dispensary pharmacist usually undertaking locum work while travelling from state to state and most probably owned a Hillman (Minx?). Alf was known to be a crank, a narcissist and probably a dangerous fellow to be on the wrong side of; perhaps he was also a vengefull type. In 1964 he received correspondence from a Bridie Keane (letter open to be read) and records show that a Bridie and Tom Keane were married Gallway in 1912.
Something quite strange was going down at Darwin Hospital in the early evening of 4/1/1934 and once again we have the opportunity of linking our man Alfred Francis Xavier Herbert to an unexplained drug related death. On this occasion the government chemist was found on the floor of his dispensary by the hospital cook in some distress. A sister who had earlier been speaking with the victim, attended and found him to be comatose with a syringe lying beside him, thereby calling for the doctor who attended, declaring the unfortune fellow to be deceased fifteen minutes later. At the later inquest police produced a variety of drugs from the victims suitcase which led the coroner to declare accidental death by occasion of misadventure. Injected Chlorotone had apparently been the C of D. and it was suspected as a cobsequence that the victim may have been a drug user as opiates and cocain were said to have also been in his possession along with another syringe. Sounds pretty straight forward perhaps, but for a couple of things including that Percy Williams the dead dispenser had been Alf’s replacement in 1930 when he resigned to take up a similar post in The Solomons. He didn’t last long there and after being dismissed went off to England for a couple of years where he wrote his epic saga Capricornia. Then as luck would have it, on his return to Darwin around the time of Percy’s sad demise, he was thus able to slot straight back into his old job as government apocetharist and dispenser which he retained until the outbreak if ww2. Some years later one of the witnesses at the inquest Tom Savas had dealings with Herbert in Sydney when the latter was on the run from the authorities for alleged subversion and fraternising with enemy agents. He avoided arrest due to his, by now international standing as an author, but he must have then decided to enlist just to be in the safe side and to display his sense of patriotic fervor. This is just one episode in a number of similar staged murder/ suicide incidents where Alf was either known to be in the general vicinity or else reasonably suspected of being closeby ie. two in Sydney two in Adelaide and maybe others yet to be disclosed.
Have there been any links to Christchurch in New Zealand?. I think I know where he was working in 1947.
Emma: as far as I know, the Somerton Man’s only link with New Zealand would seem to be the Rubaiyat. This may not sound like much, but precious little links him to anywhere.
If you have anything you want looked at in confidence before announcing it more loudly, feel free to send it through to me – nickpelling at nickpelling dot com.
Emma: There is absolutely no evidence mentioned thus far, that would indeed categorically link Somerton Man, the one most of us know of, with Christchurch NZ or any other place during his mortal existence for that matter. I note that Nick’s mention of the Rubaiyat (Courage & Friendship W.T. Christchurch ?), is cunningly accompanied by the misleading ‘seem’ qualification, which you might be best advised to take with the proverbial g.o.s. However, I for one would not be at all surprised if SM was found to have been working in or knocking around down around Christchurch, or perhaps even a little further south in ’47, just a year or so prior to his appointment with the undertaker in Adelaide.
I’ve just been looking over the Marsall inquest papers for the first time which is somewhat remiss of me I’ll concede. Two things that stood out immediately were tge positioning of his body with the head and shoulders resting on a rock ala SM. Then something I thought a little odd is that he did not appear to have had any of the usual smoker’s paraphernalia with him at the time of his demise ala Gordon’s Tibor Kuldic. Sure enough he had been out in the weather for awhile but it is hardly likely that his ever present briar pipe would have been taken by animals or blown away. In previous similar well prepared relaxed form suicides known to me, the offee has usually enjoyed a good smoke whilst awaiting the juice to kick in. There was no mention of this instrument in the search of his premises either, nor any writing materials which I’m thinking quite odd, actually suspiciously odd in my opinion. At least Tibor composed a very well written apologetic letter of departure, particularly well composed for a person mostly familiar with a high German dialect.
I’d imagine that the reason that the June ’49 inquest wasn’t reconvened with the sensational discovery of two Rubaiyat copies, is that W & C publishers of the courage & friendship series in Christchurch were quite adament that the books were not likely to have come from their press; Thereby putting a halt to further police leads followed by an unevenful 10 year hiatus. The ’58 inquest would have been merely to placate calls for new investigations following information coming forward from the likes of E.B. Collins and Ina Harvey. Of course nothing came of either lead and once again the book(s) may well not have existed; then to put an end to the matter, I understand that the senior investigator got himself a better job in Canberra.
For the uninitiated, Whitcombe & Tombs were (are) a Kiwi publishing and printing company specialising in educational books. They also had offices in Australia from the late 19th century and accompanying offset press facilities in Prahan Victoria. The other mob mistakenly called W & C in my previous post were involved mainly with water closets & the like.
John Sanders: the police knew very quickly that it was a Whitcombe & Tombs Rubaiyat, as did the media (though calling it “Tasmun Shud” was a bit of a facepalm, *sigh*):
Melbourne Argus, 27th July 1949, p.3:
NP: The mere fact that the books had many features identical to those of Whitcombe & Tombs, as we all well know by now, there were some particular differences, I think to do with their font size and paper quality plus a disimilarity in one aspect of the Tamam Shud sign off setting (1st/2nd editions). That is why the original investigator Len Brown and latter day follow ups were unable to obtain affirmation of responsibility from the nominal publisher ie. W & C. If I’m wrong, I’ts only because I’ve relied, perhaps too much, on information obtained from the SM sites.
I was led to believe that the handed in Rubaiyats were either 1/75 or 2/110, the former ending with Tamam Shud or Finis (take your pick), or Tamam (neat) for the latter. The Advertiser mentioned second edition whilst both this blog and G.F. have it as being the first so there is obviously some degree of ambiguity. Not withstanding, it still remains a fact that no less than three experienced officers of the court affirmed in their written/verbal testimonies that the TS slip bore the letters TAMAN SHUD and of that there can be no doubt. Oh but some will say it was just an honest mistake, a mere oversight; and I say not on your nelly; The taking down of formal statements, along with oral affirmation of same comes with built in safeguards to insure that such potentially game changing errors do not occur. Forget about those misleading clips of the TS slip, they were most likely printed by the ream for the two Adelaide daylies and to my knowledge we have not seen any confirmed re-print of the John Cleland original.
There are at least two people related to this case who had clear connections to Christchurch New Zealand. Bartlett Adamson and Walter Seddon Clayton. Adamson actually worked for Whitcombe and Tombs Ltd. there for a time and was very well versed in the printing industry. He frequented Pakie’s. He knew Clayton. He also knew Ada Frances Scott. They travelled in the same circles and sometimes wrote for the same publications. Bartlett quoted the Rubaiyat in one of his published articles. I pursued these connections a while back and while they exist and seem significant, they didn’t lead me to SM’s identity. Perhaps they will help someone else in their research?
1945, Xavier & Sadie Herbert, David & Phillis Herbert, Jimmy & Joy Hawkins, Helmut Hendon; All appeared to be living close to the water at Mosman on the north side of Sydney Harbour, Bob Wake arrived in ’48. Directly across the way by boat at Potts Point lived George Marshall alone but he didn’t own a boat, and had no business in Mosman worth dieing for anyway. Some might dare to suggest that he was lured there from his mean lodgings, so he could have taken a taxi, train/tram or ferry across to Cremorne or Mosman for the deadly liason, there being a ferry wharf down the bottom of Musgrave St. in those days. Though, perhaps its more likely, he was delivered dead to his seaside rock ledge directly in a smaller private craft, ala Somerton Man three years later, perhaps?.
Misca: What is Emma trying to tell us and who do you think she/he could she be nominating for SM. This being a forum for open discussion, one would think that she/he might have been a little more forthright, and quite frankly our moderator’s response was not helpful. Adamson & Scott don’t seem to be players of any consequence apart from possible connection to the Pakie scene; So were people like John Willie, Holly Farah, Xavier Herbert and a hundred other commie appologists, whaco non-confomists, war artists, angry penguins and the like, all marxist wannabees but so what, we’re talking 1948. My own list would include people with names like Cohen, Solomon, Wilson (sic), Morris (sic) and of course our old mate Slavinsky. So how do nutters like A & S fit in, pray tell and I’m not being intentially facecious., Misca, you are still the best by far when it comes to intinuative , logical, human factor understanding, so please maintain the initiative and rage. We need you for the leads.
It seems that since my post of 20th inst. George Marshall’s inquest papers have gone off line, but no matter. Most people who have followed the case closely might well assume that he died broke and possibly intestate, but that is certainly not the case. When he fled to Australia with his family in ’41, he had substantial high-end property holdings in Singapore, two outright and two in half partnership with a Jewish woman named Menaham. When he went missing on 20/5/45 The Imperial Japanese Army still claimed ownership of said properties but in September at the war’s end the titles were passed back into his estate. When George’s brother gave evidence to the inquest in August, he was able to cunningly convince the coroner that brother was off his rocker, that he had had a long held deathwish and that his passing did not come as any shock to those who dearly loved and missed him. One must wonder thus why his poor faithful little friend of four plus years, Gwen Graham apparently wasn’t aware of George’s front lobal infirmity, and of course she became a statistic shortly thereafter (just in case). So who was set to benefit from his sad demise, presumably only the Marshall family which would have included his father and numerous surviving siblings, with the exception of older brother David (Mr. Big Daddy Baghdadi), who was still interned in Japan at the T.O.D. and presumablyb not complicit. Just a couple of interesting related snippets to ponder perhaps. Mrs. Menaham may have been the mother or aunt of George and Mirmovitch who joined the AIF in 2/42 from Perth and who subsequently was KIA in New Guinea just a day or so prior to George Marshall being first reported missing. It also seems that George himself was in Singapore late ’41 to settle an insurance claim and to satisfy other property related business prior to the eanticipated oncoming Nippon Sunam; He also probably purchased two pair of bespoke shoes to last him through the coming occupation years (obviously no hintbof suicudal tendencies there). Coincidentslly in Singapore at about the same time was Big Bob Wake who flew in there by Qantas to dismantle a listening post at RAF Tanglin for the same reasons. It has been suggested that crooked George Taylor was also there with intentions of taking the Jap sunami head on, but there is some degree of doubt regarding his related claims and no medals were awarded, same same Alf Boxall and the brothers Herbert.
Um Nick. This is the most ridiculously long thread ever. I know I’m a guest and I don’t want to be disrespectful but, as I’ve tried to communicate before, research would most definitely benefit with a bit of organization. Perhaps a sub-forum with some sub-topics? Is that possible within the framework of your site? Isn’t there anything possible in order to have a more organized “conversation”????
John – I have no idea what Emma is trying to tell us or who she might be nominating for SM. So far as I can see, nothing.
Adamson and Scott might well be players of consequence. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Jessica was part of the EYL and both of these characters were also a part of that movement at the right time and place as she. My hunch is that she most likely knew both and their connection to Whitcombe and Tombs and Clayton are not insignificant. I am convinced that Ada Frances Scott is a key player.
Fun Fact – Ada had connections to Marrickville and her father was jewish!
Misca: the problem is that on a blog, the conversation chooses the thread, not the other way round. As far as the Somerton Man goes, the real problem is that there isn’t a half-decent research forum around – but considering the kind of nonsense that gets passed off as Somerton Man research, perhaps that’s largely inevitable. :-/
Couldn’t we at least have a search mechanism on here? If one clicks on the TS/SM tag above at the top of your site…This is the only thread that shows up???
The conversation does not choose the thread here. One can’t find the threads!
NP: Cutting and running, at first bluff would seem to mean a totally wasted effort and a poor return for a fairly decent input on your part, not forgetting your undeniable spirit of fairness. However, as there now seems little chance of personal vindication for any of your many and varied hypothosis’, you are probably making a wise career move. Tell you what, skip down to sunny Brighton for a week on the beach; let ‘K’ hold the fort and give it some thought. Don’t forget to wear a hat and watch out for the dreaded blue ringed octopii.
John: I haven’t gone anywhere, I’m just thinking aloud about why blogging isn’t quite working for me any more, and exploring the issue a little more than might be comfortable. Which is what blogging should be about, right?
ok, I found Leane’s syringe reference. Littlemore’s documentary file #2. Page 61 (interview with Leane, crossed out):
“I think….he suicided, because back about 100 yards from where he was sitting on the seat, I found a hypodermic syringe.”
He later refers to the syringe again (And insists HQ should have it).
According to the papers, Leane didn’t join the case until about 8th Jan – over a month after the event. So even if he attended the scene at that time, and even if he found a syringe at that time, it would be hard to make a case that it was related to the case – especially with summer and new-year activity at the beach in the interim….
The Alma Plains, Owen, Henley Bridge and Balaklava are under seige. The defences of Port Wakefield have been breached by the Monravia, with the heathen Harkness clan breeding with gay abandon. Only the Collins, McIntyres and Feltus remnants are in place to stem the encroaching tidal wave and it seems that the warning pen will go unharkened once more. While we await a possible game saving long promised Keith Mangnoson follow-up thread, of which the above localities were once the family’s domain, war clouds gather and the red flags are unfurling over all. Should it have come to pass that Helmut Hendon and Sister Jessie Harkness have joined forces under a single banner, a consequence of their recent heroic efforts in Spain’s petty internal rift, nothing will stop them and the lights along the Sea Wall of Adelaide’s Somerton Beach may be extinguished for all time. (I ain’t from Russia by the way).
Ekaterina: I’m thinking that your interest in this case connects from the place name derivitives of towns having Crimean origins in Australia, particularly those in an area north of Adelaide out from Port Wakfield; Perhaps you are from the disputed city of Sevastopol, name of which is also represented in both Sth. Australia and Victoria. Should you be so inclined, feel free to visit this site and give us the wisdom of your most intinuituve observations outlined on the blogspot site, which are most enlightening, perhaps even ‘game changing’. Being from ‘Russia’, you might also be able to assist with formal identification of the so called Somerton Man, whom our associates Clive, Pete and Gordon firmly believe to have been a fellow countryman of yours with the common sounding name of Pavel Ivanovich Fedosimov. Features of the pair are said to be quite unarguably the same, the enormous height discrepency being attributed of course to the usual effects of post-mortem shrinkage, which is unfairly still disputed by some our less knowledgeable contributors.
Hi Nick,
I used to follow this page everyday, then got busy with a new job and various other things and time passed…now everything seems to have changed. Did the pages/discussions have a rearrangement, or is it just the new fangled technology I’m viewing it on that’s hiding things?
Thanks
Kbnz: I changed the layout theme to make it a bit more mobile-friendly, converted 75% of the categories into tags, removed the image link to “The Curse of the Voynich” (because I’ve stopped selling it)… but everything else is basically the same. 🙂
JS, et al; OK, I’ll bite. Who, pray tell, was Pavel Ivanovich Fedosimov?
Bumpkin: type up ‘tamam shud pavel fedosimov’ & there you go. Give my best to GF and tge shock troops.
milongal: I’ve long suspected that Leane was talking out of his lower rear mouth when he mentioned the syringe, but how to prove it?
Ask a simple question get a nonsense answer. Nick, regarding Fedosimov, what say you?
Nick – It’s proven by the fact that he claims HE found it and he came onto the case quite a bit after SM was found.
Sanders – I’m getting bored. Lets get back to business.
Bumpkin: if there’s anything that genuinely connects Fedosimov to the Somerton Man, I haven’t seen it. Same for Tibor Kaldor and for microwriting, etc.
Misca: yes, it certainly proves Leane was talking out of his arse. But why he conjured up a syringe at all still makes no sense to me. 🙁
Why would it make no sense? They had found no evidence of a known poison that could have been taken orally. They were even discussing the possibility of a blow dart. A syringe would make sense.
Misca: errm… I meant it would make no sense for Leane to be conjuring up an imaginary syringe nearly thirty years later. As far as I can recall, there was no mention of a syringe any time before the documentary, despite all the other fevered stuff that has been projected onto the whole affair.
Abrasions between the knuckles. Perfect mask for a hypo entry point.
We might also take into serious consideration, that when Leane brought up his old memories of finding the syringe, he also spoke about SM having been sitting on the wooden park seat which was located on a raised level to the left of the stairs. This was where young ex seaman Strapps and his girl Olive had been given some opportunity to observe their subject, who at the time was in his final resting place on the other side of the stairs. We must therefore wonder who might have given this information to police and also consider that Sgt. Leane’s first visit to the scene may not have been until sometime after the main event and therefore repairs to the broken stairway may well have been completed during the interim period. I would encourage anyone still interested to closely examine a good copy of the original file photo and in paricular the vertical slats on the stairway, which I see as being plywood form work laid in preparation for a concrete pour. Also note the dislodged railings on the right just above where X marks the spot.
Nick: erm…Really, what’s so strange about it? The possibility of a poison/medication that could cause death was injected was much discussed at the inquest. So, if Leane, as an older guy threw it out “there” given things he’d seen – such as a syringe or two here and there (to Littlemore) …Why is it so strange? What are you suggesting?
I don’t think that there was any such evidence found by Leane (he came in too late) at the SM site. So, that’s why I say it’s unlikely that there was a syringe found near SM at the time of his death. However, the insinuated suggestion that there could have been one is certainly not out of the realm of possibility.
Do you have a reason to think that this is particularly important? Why focus in on this bit of a statement?
(Many an old man have been known to spin a version of their own yarn…)
Erm.
Misca: As far as I can tell from my notes, the assumption that JH/T was part of the Harkness/Lee family only came about through it having been affirmed by Gerry in his bible. There was also apparently a 1982 Ellen Harkness death announcement where her kids were listed with ages included like Thomas Lawson 64, Edmund James 62, Jessica Ellen 62, Jean Moyr 59 and Ellen Mary 54. We also believe the boys were born in Vic. and the girls in NSW with only Jessica specifically at Marrickville. I think old mum must also have come from there going by info. on the marriage docs. ie. Princes St. Sydney (sic) (Sydenham) which converts to Princes Hwy. or Old Illawarra Rd., Marrickville according to my conversion. Perhaps Byron can provide better information after he rests up a bit from his epic piece on old Charles Mikkelsen Mk. 1 & 2 possibly which is still facinating stuff.
Misca: No great rush at this place. Some time in mid 48 Percy Sillitoe MI6 and his MI5 counterpart went to Australia for the first of two visits re the Ottawa Venona briefing. I’d like to find details of their outward travel itineray more precisely whether it was an ANA flight out of San Francisco via Honolulu to Melbourne and whether a V. Lewis of I.BM. might have accompanied them. Any confirmation and I’ll give you the full details.
Misca: Actually the name on the incoming passenger list is Baiben Louis (sic?) but with my non member status on Ancestry UK I’m not entitled to a full search of complete information. What I do have on this guy has possible ramifications way beyond my modest credentials, both with regard to his known and documented connections to the very highest levels of 30s to 60s? political influence in Australia. Born in Meningie S.A. 1897, to a then not so well off but undoubted and immaculately credentialled Jewish family (Solomon). He started out in show business and seems to have spent most of his early to mid adult life overseas and had a stint in the British navy with his ‘pinkish’ mates during the war, before going over to the big league at IBM as a mechanical accounts consultant. He is connected in various ways to some of our very good friends on the SM site and in his formative years lived with very influential relatives as they moved between homes in Partridge and Pier Streets, then most likely to a more palatial ‘residence’ on Glenelg’s Sea Wall (South Terrace). I have made mention of this shadowy figure previously but perked no interest, not unsurprisingly I might add and I have since made contact with interesting well placed relatives who knew him as ‘pop’ and that he passed on in 1982 at Fitzroy Vic.
Having pawed through the Australian peerage records looking for Sir John Brookman, nothing comes up, so the lady from Cheltenham who gave us information on Charles Mikkelsen employment as a gardener with the knight is sadly unaccountable. A Sir George of that name was a very famous figure in Australias gold mining history (Coolgardie W A) but alas he passed on in 1927, some five years to early. He did have a much younger half brother John who lived in Meningie S.A. but it is most unlikely that he would have retained a gardener in that arid zone. On another related matter, there can be little doubt that old Dr J.R. Nimmo, very experienced surgeon that he was, removed an appendix from someone who presented as seaman Charles Mikkelsen at Torres Straights Hospital, Thursday Is. He stated that the patient presented to him with appendicitis, which even in these times, would not give much cause to risk taking chance on a potentially life threatening rupture. The man Dr. Dwyer saw on the slab in Adelaide nine years later did not have the five inch incision scar so that seems to at least settle the Mikkelsen Mk. 1 question.
Nick – Thx. : )
There are three trips showing for him.
11 April 1948 – He took Australian National Airways from Melbourne to San Francisco (with note attached “Honolulu 12 April, 1948”). His passport and visa for the trip had been issued 1 February, 1948.
May 20, 1948 – He flew back on British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines from San Francisco to Sydney on flight 111/5. He used the same passport.
The third listing is quite confusing to me in that from outside appearance it shows a separate trip taken September 13, 1947 but when you open it up, it’s the same trip as the manifest I listed for April. I’m quite sure this an incorrect transcription by someone at ancestry.
These are the only two trips I can find for him but that doesn’t mean that there weren’t many more. The travel documentation on the site can be quite spotty. I’ll keep rummaging around.
@Bump[kin: Gordon (tamashud.blogspot) claims that SM is Pavel Ivanovic Fedosimov. As far as I can see, PIF was alive 2 decades later (and representing the USSR at nuclear conferences), but GC inists that’s because it’s such a common name that the one alive later must be someone else. While I grant that Pavel Ivanovic is certainly a common first/second name combination in Russia, Fedosimov/Fedosymov/Fedosimoff is much rarer – and I find it rather curious if this name is so common that we can only find references to 2 (if you believe him), both of whom were apparently Russian diplomats working in Nuclear fields….
In my view, PI Fedosimov is almost certainly not SM. In GC’s view, SM is definitively PI Fedosimov – and any evidence to the contrary is just coincidence. Of course, he has a background as a professional investigator…
My original comment on the whole Harry Gold discussion was as follows:
“A couple of interesting things…There is an FBI file (on their website) “Anatoli Yakovlev Part 1 of 20). In that file, Harry Gold describes Anatoli’s own walk as a “MINCY but not effeminate” walk. If you look it up…it means to walk as if wearing an invisible pair of high shoes. So, his own handler had an unusual walk as well…”
I speculated that this person could have been Yacob Lomakin who I still think looks a bit like SM. He was forced to leave the US in August of 1948. I don’t want to harp on about it as it’s most likely that he’s not SM but I wanted to clarify my thoughts on the matter.
Celestine: Sorry about that, I should have let the et als handle it in the first instance. Stand out Russian names are listed under ‘Soviet spy theories’ over here and as you will eagerly attest, Intellegence is not my forte. I’ll just say that Pavel’s alleged, almost mirror like comparison to our man on the slab by some, is hotly contested by others who see only a Slav head on a longish frame with funny dentures.
Australia National Airways did not have status as a commercial overseas operator and one might therefore assume that Ben Louis was on a government chartered flight on trade or finance related business for the Chiffley Administration, though whether that was to be conducted in the USA, Canada or elswhere, we are not to know. I was more interested in whether or not his travelling companions might have included Sillitoe and Hollis, in which case his S.A. connections with the likes of Clyde Cameron and James O’Callahan and other leftist stallwarts could have pointed towards a nefarious joint undertaking. He was by vocation a CPA and wrote books over a thirty year period on mechanical book keeping with an unamed wiki biographer listing his lifetime occupations as a well refarded lyricist song writer, author, magistrate, naval officer, merchant mariner and non specified government man.
It’s also worth noting that there is only 1 known picture of Fed – so it’s hard to be certain to make any comparison.
On the historicimages website there’s quite a few of Yakov (Yakob/Jakob) Lomakin – and you quickly realise different angles, different attire (hat) and even cigarette really affect how he looks (in one of them he even sort of looks similar to the Fed picture). There’s also an interesting one of him dismissing reporters – where his wrist looks a bit limp…
I’ll be flying blind a little, so before plowing in with one of my pet contentions I’m prepared to cheerfully stand corrected. SM’s given height of 5′ 11″ was a first estimation that the press put out on day one by we know not whom. Big Jack Cleland obviously viewed the body soon after arrival and in his notes to the Coroner, he remarked on many physical attributes of his patient from an expert’s anthropologistic point of view, but supprisingly only gave an annotion of ‘to be advised’ with regard to height. By that stage he had already examined the clothing, tried some of it on for size in the company if James Cowan, the govt. analyst and they shared the view that the wearer was perhaps a little longer in the body and limbs than they were. Neither of these great men were giants by any stretch, which is possibly the reason for Cleland’s tongue in cheek title of ‘Big Jack’. I’m prepared to go out on a limb here and give him no more than 5′ 8″ which is mire tgan he deserves in my estimation. Based on one fairish comparison photo that is of him standing a few feet in front of a woman in high heels, it therefore leads me to the viewpoint that the SM body, was most probably a deal shorter than the non varified given height of 5′ 11″. I note of course that a certain Russian gent has been named as Somerton man, this chap having the physical appearance of someone even much taller than that assigned to our worthy subject. Whilst I’m prepared to accept a slight degree of post mortem shrinkage, I’d once more contend with some confidence derived from field experience, that such diminution would not amount to the extent necessary for such comparison to be asserted realistically, especially in so much as SM’s height having been assessed mere hours after his expiration time estimate. I think you can now breath a sigh of relief Byron, but don’t hold it in too long, I may have some news for you about your old buddy Jock Armstrong providing its still ‘down there in the place’ (Sgt. Leon Leane saying).
@Nick: Somerton Man’s death could be compared with the mysterious death of Ricky McCormick (in St. Louis, Missouri.) Same time era: “tunse” of the stuff being dumpt into the two garbage dumps. Dang those Malinkckrodts !
bd
Damn General Marshall even more; for taking over an industry which, at first, was intended to be a benign source of power (to replace coal, gasoline, methane…….). It ruined my father’s heart — and caused my premature birth (cleft palate, crossed vision, and an irregular heart-beat.
beady-eyed wonder
JS – We’ve been through the height discussion before but unfortunately, the information was taken down. For what it’s worth…At the Coronial Inquiry, Leane states “The deceased was 5 feet 11 in tall, well-built, broad-shouldered, square on the shoulders, he had well developed limbs, large hands…”
John Sanders, I would be interested to see what you might have found regarding George Armstrong. Several years ago I found a newspaper report of a “novelty dance” performer who also appeared to be a circus performer. At various times it has been suggested that SM was a dancer or a circus performer, so the newspaper report mentioning Jock Armstrong caught my eye. Given that Jock Armstrong also appeared to be known to the members of the Returned Services League at Glenelg, Jock (George?) seemed to be a plausible fit for SM and worthy of further investigation.
Chronicle (Adelaide) 29th November 1934 page 46. “Returned Soldiers League notes. By Gareth Owen.
…… “Glenelg. The annual social was held on Saturday, November 24, and proved to be one of the most successful since the inception of the branch — no less than 137 members attended and thoroughly enjoyed themselves. ….. a feature of the evening was the speciality dance number by Jock Armstrong, who has just returned from a successful season with Wirth’s Circus. A happy evening concluded with community singing — always popular with the diggers…..” (note for non Australians: diggers = Australian servicemen).
I have found other newspaper references that might relate to this novelty dancer “Jock” Armstrong.
Recorder (Port Pirie) 30th October 1940 page 3. “novelty dance” “Mrs G Armstrong”
Southern Argus (Port Elliot) 5th July 1928 page 2
“novelty dances”, “conducted by Mr G Armstrong”
The Register (Adelaide) 6th December 1923 page 10.
“R G Armstrong of the ship Port Stephens”
The Register (Adelaide) 19th December 1921 page
Amateur athletics Victoria. “…. G. Armstrong 440 yards hurdles” …. This is interesting because I have found a strong statistical connection between the unusual ear structure of SM (cavuum cymba ratio) and sprinting ability.
Daily Commercial News and Shipping List (Sydney) 8th May 1935 page 1
“G Armstrong” is mentioned as being a “member of the staff” of Wirth’s circus.
Recorder (Port Pirie) 30th October 1940 page 3
“Mesdames G. Armstrong, L. Frost, and L. Clifford and Miss E. Brighton, all of Adelaide, were guests of Mr. and Mrs. F. Brighton, of Swift street, Pirie West, for the week-end.” Hmm. Port Pirie. That is the port from where lead ore concentrates from the Broken Hill mine were shipped.
Southern Argus (Port Elliot) 5th July 1928 page 2.
“novelty dances” “conducted by Mr G Armstrong” 21st birthday party for Rose Brighton. among the guests were “Mesdames E. N. Stevens, E. E. Leane, H. Yelland, Cummins, L. G. Armstrong, J. L. Sampson, F. Andrews …. L. Frost, and C. Tonkin.” I note that there was a novelty dance and there was a Mrs Leane amongst the guests. Yes, it is Mrs L.G. Armstrong, but perhaps she was a relative of G. Armstrong? I note a C.Tonkin was included in the party. From memory, weren’t the Tonkin family socially and politically prominent at the time?
There are some Armstrongs listed in the 1939 Commonwealth Electoral Roll. South Australia. Barker Clarendon that might be relevant.
No:24 Armstrong, George Redshaw. Coromandel Valley, carpenter. Note: two other Armstrongs at Coromandel Valley. Burton Armstrong, mechanic and Thomas Armstrong, a fruit grower. I am reminded that fruit growing crops up several times in general discussion regarding SM.
And 5’11 is still a good 10cm short – and the stuff about high heels, shrinkage and whatever else doesn’t help me dismiss those 10cm.
Perhaps he used to have a Tintin spike in his hair to add an inch or two….
For mine, the evidence of a diplomat of the same name existing in the following decades cannot be dismissed as readily as it has been (by my research while Pavel Ivanovich is a common enough Russian monniker, Fedosimov is not such a common surname compared to say Fedor or Federoiv (in fact Fedosimov is a little odd, because as far as I understand both ‘sim’ and ‘ov’ (and the derivative ‘ovic’) mean ‘son of’. So ignoring the ‘son of Ivan’ (which as I say seems common enough), we have ‘Son of Son of Fedor’ – or perhaps ‘Son of Fedorov’ (the ‘sim’ affects the ‘r’, I think). So it is an unusual name, that is not as widespread as claimed (It’s about 430,000th most common surname in the world – and the counter example of ‘There are plenty of Gordon Cramers in the world’ (yes, that was said as an example of ‘rare’ names being repeated) seems to ignore that ‘Cramer’ is about the 8,500th most common surname in the world).
To me, the likelihood of two Pavel I Fedosimov existing between 1910 (when the first was born) and 1966 (when I lose track of the second) is already unlikely. Couple that with both working in the Public Service, both apparently involved in Nuclear ‘stuff’; both married (Fed1 to Vera Sergeyevna – if I could find that Fed2’s wife had the same name it would be conclusive to me that they are the same) etc the likelihood reduces further.
Then we look at the years. Fedosimov1 is born in Dec 1910 and Fedosimov2 last represents USSR at the IAEA in 1966 – this sounds like a public service retirement around 55? Fed1 was thought to have been recalled from the US because the Russian leadership feared he might be compromised (while we have a Nuclear arms race). Fed2 publishes a paper (which conveniently I can’t actually find a copy of) to the IAEA basically against Nuclear weapons (so it’s not a big stretch to suggest he was more pacifist than aggressor and this led people to think he might have been a double agent). Fed2 then attends IAEA conferences for the next 10 years in varying capacity.
Then there’s the US watchlist from 1951 (and a subsequent CIA article that mentions it, from memory) that suggests the US still thought Fed was active after SM’s demise. While some have worked in investigative agencies and are perhaps more qualified to assess/dismiss evidence than I am, I have worked in and with Intelligence Agencies and simply don’t believe Fed could have been on a watchlist if he was dead, unless the US didn’t know or didn’t think he was dead, or have a reason to want someone to think they thought he was alive (which is one helluva stretch, given the watchlist was theoretically secret). And this to me is where the Fed story falls apart. I can cop that there were higher powers pulling strings with the local constabulary. But is it really possible that the US (who had an Embassy in Australia from 1943, and who were the first nation Australia sent representatives to stay in 1940) and who would have been paranoid as F wouldn’t know about what was going on? Who were the powers that be, that would know what was going on, but not share it with Uncle Sam (and how did Uncle Sam not know things were being kept from them). At the very best, the US weren’t certain Fed was SM – but on the balance of all of the other evidence, it would appear that Fed definitely wasn’t.
Let’s look at it the other way. What makes us think that Fed is SM? He left the US (bound for Russia) 6 months before SM died. Then we can’t find him (not sure whether this is because we can’t read Russian, or whether Russian information simply isn’t as prevalent online as American information). Then there’s the photo of Fedosimov (which some claim bears a resemblance – and it does insofar as any two faces have certain features). You might recall that originally the focus was on Nikolai Vasileivich Nolikov – who people mistakenly thought was Fed, and were already claiming a resemblance. When they realised it was the wrong guy, they decided Fed looks even more like SM…We can’t find a record of Fedosimov ever having been in Australia, but based on 1 picture we can be convinced it’s him?
While I dismiss the idea of 2 PI Feds as incredibly unlikely, I won’t dismiss it altogether – especially since I have found a Vera Fedosimova who I don’t believe was Fed (or Fed1’s, at least) wife. Middle (or was it maiden, I forget) name Mikhaylovna, born 1924 – had a son Oleg Sergeevich (yes, I see the coincidence with that and Sergeyevna – and I don’t know enough about Russian names to think there’s anything significant), born in the 1950s (from memory). So I’ll concede there is a chance of 2 people with same name existing even where the name is rare, but a chance of something isn’t necessarily a likelihood…
While I’m not arrogant enough to be absolutely certain that Fed2 = Fed1 (if I wound his wife’s name was Vera, or if I found a mention of Fed2’s birth date and it were the same as Fed1’s I’d think otherwise), on the balance of current evidence, it’s hard to make any other conclusion….and if anyone has any hard proof otherwise I’ll gladly agree. But to me there’s barely any evidence, let alone proof.
Misca: Sorry mate but what Leane said don’t mean squat as you well know. I’m looking for Gordon’s man with the tape measure and little black policemans notebook with 5′ 11″ written right there in the clear. You star taking what coppers say as Gawds gospel, then be my guest.
BD: I’ll have to do some back checking and I certainly can recall your earlier interest. What I come up with is likeky to relegate our old ‘highland fling’ Jock to the what might have been category however. From memory an artical appeared in one of the Broken Hill rags of early ’50s time frame. A handy sized speel about the newly formed Australian ballet with well known performers named therein; Then your Jock Armstrong appears in the credits as being a former stage performer turned ‘props’ and lighting man of some standing. At the time it was of only passing interest to me as I was full bottle ino the Richard (Fred) Pruszinsky tragedy of about that date and inexcusably I forgot to put it out there for assessment.
Milongal: Mr. P.I.Fedosimov might have been a certified ‘son of gun’ and 6′ 1″ for all we know, but its not gonna make one iota of difference because he isn’t our fallen hero from Somerton in either form or phys.; Besides the man would be insulted to think that he might be confused with an older man such as our own SM. As I understand things, our age range was unofficially set at a minimum of 45 years and to max out at 50, which leaves ”Ivan’ a little short in the tooth (figuritively though not visually).
Misca: You’ll most likely find that Valdemar Hay Augenson, Chief Commonwealth Inspector of Airports DCA, was the person instrumental in the establishment of the Lake Boga Catalina base which he surveyed before ww2, having also been instrumental in the ariel survey work for the subsequent setting up of the internment camps all over the Southern Mallee/Wimmera districts. You’ll recall that this chap is the person refered to as The Major in the Bob Wake folio. and indeed the men were two peas in a pod for all their OHMSS careers, one being cloak the other dagger. My less than complimentary view of the L. Boga/ Swann (sic) Hill area was gained from actual visitation experience from the mid sixties as opposed to the latter day ‘wiki-wally-world tablet tour’. So let me assure you that it would have been a waterless wasteland in Keith Mangnoson’s day, with hardly enough agriculrural output to feed a flaming ant. The lake was a deserted bog when I was first there and absolutely dry on the second. If you’re looking for serious cold war style underground chemical warfare deposits, you’re likely to find them just down the track at RAAF Nhill/Kadina?…Check out this most interesting chap on line and there are several trove entries about his pioneering air ventures into the far north from the 1920s timeline. He would almost certainly been known to characters like Xavier Herbert, both being Territorian bush aviators of the same era and having worked in various clandestine capacities at certain times in their varied careers. Val’s dad was a Scandinavian immigrant shipping contractor with his vessels plying national and territorial waters for the timber trade. He was known to have tendered on supply contracts for ww2 military construction of pre fab army camps and the like.
Anyone out there heard about a fella called Somerton man who was once the subject of an interesting ciphermystery investigation, before we became bogged down with deliberate diversionary periferal claptrap. I’m up for another crack if anyone else is. Captain Parfitt, Ships Surgeon Slater and Purser Hutton of the 1936 SS Moldavia non-adventure cruise are not quite making too much recent mileage I’m afraid; So if you folks arn’t too busy, we might like to get back on track before our weary moderators loose their patience.
Seeing as I’ve thrown down the gauntlet, so I should take up the cudgels and thereby seek comment, which I’m always wont to encourage. Knowing that some folks are still seeking various rather ingenious and amusing means to implicate Detective Feltus’ fancy, Theresa Johnston in her proper role, as a player in this case, I’ll comment thus, albeit with certain reservations which I’ll sit on for the present as is my right. There is no firm compelling evidence to prove ‘Jesstyn’s involvement in the SM investigation period; This being supported without question by all the evidence submitted for legal appraisal and opinion by those, presumaby uninfluenced officers involved in the painstaking collection and collation of the available relevant coronial material. In the interim period since 1948 inquiries have been reactivated periodically with additionial coronial input, with no mention of the lady’s likely involvement whatsoever. To my way of thinking, she remains a voluntary witness who came forward to offer information on the possible identity of a body found not such a great distance from where her family just happened to be residing. She was not likely to know the ramifications of her citizens decision to help and I’m sure she rued it until her dieing breath….OK what say you all who have something to offer, just so long as it ain’t the phone number which has been done to death and would cause many an old unthinking detective to look away embarrassingly if asked about its presence on a piece of otherwise untarnished evidence.
She didn’t “come forward to offer information”. She did nothing of the sort.
Geez Nick. I realize that we’re your riff raft but couldn’t we get a new thread once every couple of months? It’s so difficult following discussions as we’re being lumped into one big pile of Somerton carp.
Pete: ….and my response is also simple…Evidence of no evidence may be considered as being a justified legal proposition, particulary when impacted by the adjectival precursor ‘compelling’ which lends a subtle though definite distinction to the quality of said evidence or lack thereof…Taken from ‘Sanders Rules on Evidence A.P.C. ’73). and I trust that it may be of some aid to your better understanding of the law and its many interesting quirks.
Misca: Then you’ll be wanting to explain your own perception of events leading to her unofficial and anonymous police interactions. We are understandably
prepared to accept hearsay testimony regarding said proposition at this stage.
John: her phone number was on the paper, SAPOL called her in, but she (apparently) didn’t know anything about the Rubaiyat. But when she viewed the plaster cast, it would seem (from her documented reaction) that she then twigged exactly who the dead man was, because she knew (or claimed to know) his identity several decades later. Given that we’ve had her family on television saying most of the above directly, it would appear that there’s very little in the way of speculation going on here.
How about a dodgy inquest ? /’iNG,kwest/
June 17, 1949
Arthur Anzac Holdernesse
“In November last year I was employed as a bus conductor. I was not interviewed in December about a trip in November, I was first interviewed last Saturday about that. I have no recollection about the trip in November…I cannot remember having seen a man like the plaster cast in court.”
Harold Rolfe North
“The ticket was issued in respect of a suitcase, not by me…I know the man who actually issued the ticket but he is away on holidays now. R. Craig is his name…Mr. Craig is on holidays now. I do not know whether or not he has been approached in the last six months to have enquiries made. I know the ticket produced represents the suitcase which I gave to the police.”
Holdernesse was not interviewed until a week before the inquest. Six months after the body was found.
The fellow who actually received and stored the suitcase doesn’t appear to have been interviewed at all.
A dog and pony show.
And Jessica wasn’t called.
Nick: And that’s exactly the response I would have expected from Misca but of course it’s merely hearsay. Had the police made the initial approach to Sister Thomson, based on her phone number appearing on the rubaiyat, they would have had ample reason to suspect her (or prosper’s) implication. She would have thus been subject to the rules of interrogation including a corroborated caution and this would have necessitated all sorts of official documentation. The fact that Errol Canney, who may have known her, made no such report, suggests that the meeting between the pair was more or less informal, hence her desire for anonimity, which was honored in the sprit of fairness. This guesture being in accordance with police proceedural rules for dealing with a compliant witness coming forward of their own free will. The same conditions would certainly have been applicable to Ron Francis when he made his approach a week earlier to hand over his possibly incriminating little volume, begging discretion due to his own obvious disconnect except by pure chance. I’m satisfied that these people still remain unamed in poluce indices for the very reasons I have laid out, though I’ll cheerfully entertain any reasonable discenting discourse.
JS – Have you found some sort of “official documentation” regarding anything to do with this case (other than the inquest)? If so, it would be great if you could direct us to where we might have a look as well.
Misca: Should I happen to find some sort of “official documentation” regarding anything to do with this case, I will have it out there as applicable. I would like to think that such considerations on my part are a reciprocal arrangement…Any news from Russian Kate, Quentin or the good Moravian missionaries from scenic Lake Boga?.
Durham tried to make a comment about the slip. He was stopped. It was struck. Sham of an inquest.
Milongal: Any ideas on who might have promoted that nonsensical, Sister Jessica Harkness magic mystical tour aboard the P&O cruise liner, SS Moldavia ‘cunning stunt’. Could it have been intended to merely distract, particularly you and I, the last proud remnants of our team, or were they just trying to jump start their own rotting hulk of a wallowing, aimless SM Tamam Shud hulk, going over the head of their own Fleet Captain in the process. The worst of the folly appears to be over now, the mutinous deckhands having been keelhauled for their farsical bungling conduct, and the ever reliable old knight in creaking armour having being adequately recompensed for a timely Norwegian odyssey intervention.
Misca: The fingerprints, at least the set we have on file, which were apparently obtained by the same Mr. Durham that you refer to, were submitted initially for comparison to the NSW Police F.P Bureau, then subsequently transmitted by wire internationally to other agencies, including the FBI with negative results. To my inexpert eye, they seemed to be incomplete, of a very poor quality, and therefore most likely to have been rejected. Perhaps there were other sets of a more readable quality that were acceptable for comparison and it would be of immence benefit to know if this were to have been the case.
john: Durham was one of the (if not the) best in Australia at that time, so I suspect it is your inexpert eye that is at fault here. :-/
@JS: Thanks, forgot to mewntion he would’ve been a tad on the young side as he was born 1910. TBH, the only reason he keeps popping back up is because some people don’t want to let go of that angle.
@JS: Nihill/Kadina – I assume you mean Kaniva (just out of SA into Victoria)? Kadina is at top of Yorke Peninsula (Copper Triangle)
@JS re the SS Moldavia – hadn’t paid much attention. While I occasionally check what’s new on blogspot, I hadn’t really read the comments (until now) – and all I see interesting there is someone comments saying they can’t tear themselves away and then disappears back into the ether they came from….
From a brief look, I think there’s been a mixup there anyway….
The South Australian MAritime museum has a record of 3 ships called the Moldavia (I think these records are simply ships that visited SA), and while one of them appears to be the 1903 one built in Greenock, the other 2 do not appear to be the Russian one mentioned subsequently.
Can’t help but see a touch of irony that the same person who promotes the idea of multiple PI Feds doesn’t consider that the Moldavia could be anything other than a specific Russian-built ship that (like Fed) may never have visited Australia.
I should learn to click and read before saying stuff….
The Moldavia that most likely relates to the possibly unrelated J Harkness is this one:
http://passengersinhistory.sa.gov.au/node/931955
Built by:
Cammell Laird & Co.Ltd.in Birkenhead (I assume that’s not Birkenhead near Port Adelaide, but is Birkenhead in Britain somewhere) in 1922 and making regular visits to Port Adelaide until 1937….
Unfortunately I think it only shows arrivals (not departures) and not sure if ‘passengers’ refers to all passengers, or whether it only lists immigrants …
Nick: My inexpert eye did not fail to notice that the standard looking FP form did not include comparison palm prints, the usual inititiater for a reading; My non inexpert police experience recalls that such omissions were tentamount to a rejection trugger, certainly as far as the NSW and FBI indices are concerned. Your apparent acceptance of a person’s credentials at face value concerning crime investigation, seem somewhat at varience to the more discerning criteria that you apply to your Voynich contributors….You will have noticed that Mr. Durham did not appear to have been called upon to take other samples that could have been cross referenced at Sydney CIB Singles Section, which would not have been rejected out of hand.
Milongal: Yes!, it most certainly is Kaniva, which as you’ll recall was where Ernest Kinabrow, our Henley Beach Pier SIGSW suicider hailed from. Strapps, the elder, was a witness thereby starting a family trend it seems…Never been there myself, nor Kadina (deliberate mistake), for that matter.
I’ve no problems with Mr. Durhams reputation, as a soldier, C.I.S. officer and Police Service operative, however it does seem that he was having an off day with SM. The irony of forgetting to do the all important left/right palm prints is, that his most celebrated conviction actually involved a palm print on glass comparison, which is said to have been an Australian first. Now I can well appreciate that there must be certain little frog hollow, borough police agencies that are not so very particular with the duty of professional care. I know of such stations where slack special constables would have offenders take their own prints, so as to avoid messing their own hands. You’ll find here the types, who after completing their dull careers, play up their crime stopper lives to the hilt, joining glamorous sounding associations, in order to play on non earned former credentials etc.
Frog hollow in the rotten burrough has the crafty bower bird; Not contended with trumping the slack old useless missus, the randy old rooster has up and off with the 327 Torana and your best pair of black thongs while you we were cleaning up the nest.
@JS I’ve only been to Kaniva when passing through ADL->MEL (although Nihill has a playground with a giant green slide that the kids like to stop at). Kadina (and Wallaroo, and Moonta), on the other hand, is one of my favourite SA destinations….great Cornish pasties.
I found something vaguely interesting on trove about buses (from 1939). Without posting the whole article, basically the “Camden/St Leonards” service (There’s a Camden Park just North (and I think a little inland) from Glenelg – and there’s actually a bus depot there these days, so I assume Camden = Camden Park) was extended to Somerton – which I think removes some of the issues I had about that bus service (namely that the closest it came to Somerton would have been the corner of Adelphi Tce and Anzac Highway). The route (which may still have been referred to as the St Leonards’ service by the sounds) followed the existing route to Cnr Anzac Highway and Gordon, then turned South travelling to Whyte Street, returning via Tarlton (Moseley St) to the Broadway. If this route still existed 10 years later….
While on public transport, I’ve also always been a bit puzzled about the Train Ticket. A long time ago (in a totally different context) I theorised that perhaps Fedosimov** had gotten Hamley Bridge and Heley Beach confused. While I’ll admit it’s still a long bow, the existence of a Harkness family (and indeed a Sister J Harkness) in that area could make a plausible scenario along the lines of:
– Fedosimov is in possession of the Rubaiyat
– Fedosimov is looking for J (doesn’t really matter whether for love, or business, or something else)
– Fedosimov has previously found his J Harkness lives/works in Hamley Bridge (or Owen – a little (20km) further North)
– Fedosimov has heard she (at this stage he’s a bit confused with which J Harkness is which) is now (or soon) a Thomson and wants to meet her (the love angle works well here, but other angles might too – maybe warning her off a known car-jacker in Prosper, or something)
– Thomson is easy enough to find, and he finds a reference to Marlborough St. He vaguely remembers “Hamley Bridge”, and easily dismisses the recollection as a bastardisation of “Henley Beach”, so he buys a ticket there
– For whatever reason, he decides to ring her (or at least look up her number), and jots down the number x3239 (perhaps he missed the train, and decided to contact her – who knows?)
– Either through looking for this number, or through actually contacting her, he realises he has to go to Moselet St, Glenelg and changes tack….
PLOT TWIST: Perhaps he was originally after the other J Harkness (who is closer his age). He mistakenly thinks the Glenelg Harkness (the one getting married) is her…In fact I think this works better – that he knew the Harkness from up North, and mixed up the identities in his desperation.
Choose your own adventure: At some stage, Fed meets J (possibly at her house), and either doesn’t realise she’s the wrong one, or realises and gives some embarassed apologies. He meets his demise (possibly through Prosper who doesn’t like his missus being disturbed, possibly at his own hand, and possibly by any other theory going around). Subsequently the big Rubaiyat confusion happens, and when J shows up to view the bust of Alf, she is absolutely flabbergasted to see the man who came a knocking at her door and made a scene.
Totally changing direction, Somewhere online (possibly that other site) there was a reference to Thomson trying to get his hands on a new house. It took me by surprise, because I’d seen an ad where Thomson was looking for:
WANTED, house, suit small family, eastern suburbs preferred, cash £1,500 to £2,000: can give tenancy of maisonette Glenelg, rental 25/- weekly if required. Thomson, 90a Moseley st, Glenelg. Phone X3239.
But this was in 1954…so too late to be of interest. As a result, I went looking, and found these from November 1948:
WANTED bungalow, pay cash t0 £1.500. Can give tenancy maisonette, all mod. convs, rent 22/6. Glenelg. Phone Thomson. X3239.
WANTED house, any district, suit couple, pay cash, can give maisonette with mod. convs., Glenelg. very low rental. Phone Thomson. X3239.
And then in December he loses his Gold Watch….
Is it a coincidence, that as things are about to get interesting in Glenelg (I think one of those ads was 13th, and one was 27th) Thomson seems keen to move out of the area, but reluctant to specify the exact address (he doesn’t mind in the similar ad 5 years later). Is it possible that Thomson was expecting Fed – and wasn’t sure he wanted to be home when he came?
From memory his trip to Broken hill was on the 15th (if that means anything) so he was trying to sell his house and sorting some business in Broken Hill.
**Names may have been changed
Yawn
Milongal/JS – Making sides? Why? There really are so few of us. 10 maybe (tops) misguided souls pursuing these lines of inquiry. So, we divide? Makes no sense to me. Either you’re in (to solve) or out (to misdirect) there doesn’t appear to be motive for anything else. Why the fight? What’s the gain? Nothing.
Misca: Care to give us the guts on Von Stieglitz, Quentin (Thomson?), Lake Catalina (Boga), The Russian Kate inspired farce and the Mikkelsen recovery effort. Come clean on any one of the above and I would consider some sort of renewed sharing of information with YOU!. Failing that, the only thing I might concede to your plea for renewed co-operation is that I’ll remain here and continue to be reservedly forthright, so long as the initiative suits and Nick’s unarguable spirit of post fairness prevails. What you chose to do in ‘dar ul harb’ is entirely your prerogative.
I am not Russian Kate. In fact, my magical mystery tour multi-media comment was an attempt to make it clear that she was posting information to distract from other discussions.
The “Mikkelsen recovery effort” is a very well thought out/researched theory that Byron has and he posted accordingly.
John – You obviously do a lot of research on this case and frequently and eloquently send out “feelers” to see if others can assist in certain lines of your queries. I am no different. Lake Boga is that. A question. So far, it has lead me down yet another dead end. The Thomson family married into the Von Stieglitz clan, so why not ask about them? Similarly, after his first marriage, Quentin seems to have married/lived with a woman who had previously married a Stapleton. Another legitimate bit of information. I could post ad nauseum, all day, with bits and pieces of research but ultimately don’t bother if they lead to dead ends. If any of these lines of research seem legitimate, I will expand. Otherwise, I think they become silly bits of distraction like many we have seen here and on related forums and I do not want to add to those.
I must confess Bozo, I’m more than a little humbled, by your obviously well intentioned casual comparisons to myself and the great Jack K. We actually have things in common that people may not be aware of, like our dads being spud farmers, not to mention our love for the old parlez vous frances caper. Don’t be too severe on my old bus driver mate Milongal, the fella’s got untapped talent and he don’t keep secrets. As for our mate Misca, tough as nails and twice as sharp; don’t know the meaning of retreat, or feigned sentiment. Keep being nice and I might decide to call off the dogs from T. Crik, The Channon, Coffee Camp, Alsto. and over at Coraki. Probably keep old Mordecai Yammaggee ( he don’t need much) up on the big W. peak with his red dot for the time being, just to keep an eye out for any draft dodging, stompy wompie retros interlopers that might accidently venturer into the feral dog zone (bang bang Bangalow). Cheers.
Misca: I’m right with that and thanks. I’ll endeavour to keep the hard line to a dull roar, but from over here, where I feel unconstrained and not taken for a moron, which is probably on the generous side.
@Misca re fights – it’s odd that only the mob at this site is ever guilty of such things. I’ve posted on tomsbytwo (under another name when I still used to read it) and Pete pretty quickly gets agressive if you dare disagree with something he wrote. Similarly, I have posted anonymously at tamamshud.blogspot only to get a defensive GC (who amusingly seemed to think ‘anonymous’ is a single poster who chose that name, or something) angrily defending fairly ludicrous assertions with preposterous ideas, – for someone who used to be a professional investigator his ability to block out any hint of evidence contrary to his preconceptions is worrying – these preconceptions were never more clear when he first claimed Fed was SM – even photoshopping out the glasses on Novikov (who at the time he thought was Fed) to ‘prove’ the comparison.
If you read his posts and his comments, he tries every opportunity to dig the boot in and promote his idea on the basis that “the person who said there was only one Fedosimov is clearly nuts” (paraphrased, but clearly aimed at we the dissenters). Any attempt to reply with anything that might question his viewpoint gets moderated out – that’s fine it’s his site, his rules, but if as a result I’m inclined to sling some mud back, then I feel that’s my prerogative.
Don’t like it, don’;t read it….
It would appear that despite pistol pack’n Pete’s call to arms, and nifty Nick’s departure to the coast for a well earned respite, it would seem that things are now all quiet on both the western and eastern fronts, leaving us staunch storm troopers temporarilly bogged down in no-man’s land. Not to worry though, we might still be able to maintain the inititiative without leadership, so long as we maintain the rage, have high hopes for a breakthrough and instill resolute faith in our comrades. Troopers like Misca, Milongal, Clive, ‘Devious’, Ellen, 747 and a few of the very occasional ‘chockos’, will hold the fort and undoubtedly prevail in the end. It’s such a pity that many of the old brigade have fallen by the wayside, but such must be expected when battle lines are drawn, especially in light of recent ‘troubles at mill’ and mutinous behavior in certain sectors if our advance elements. Some day real soon, for we, the dedicated, brazen and stout hearted remainder, the 1930 penny will drop from out of the blue. We’ll thus have justication for our joint efforts and our courage in the face of odds uncounted that will have finally borne fruit. Hopefully such unselfish efforts will be vindicated with full and a justifiably equal share of the five pound reward money that a gratefull public might choose to bestow upon us, the illustrious few.
If the mysterious Kate really was Russian (or at least can speak Russian) perhaps she can hunt Russian archives for traces of any Fedosimov’s to put that to rest once and for all. As I’m pretty sure I’ve previously said any number of records showing 2 different birthdates (or to a lesser extent 2 different wives) or even 2 simultaneously existing would have me pipe down some. Perhaps ironically, I think less proof is needed to show there were 2 of them than there was only 1…
The assertion “sometimes no evidence is evidence” to confirm they are separate could equally be used to deny any connection (and perhaps more accurately it could be “sometimes no proof is evidence”).
Milongal: Regarding the new posted comparison mock ups, one of Pavel I. Fedosimov and the other, of a Slavic featured Somerton Man, cunningly crafted by Adelaide’s Universal Artists, so as to look nothing like each other; Apart from the wide brimmed stetsons which present as being so remarkably similar, as to create the intended illusion of sameness. Perhaps we might make inquiries with the hatter, should the maker’s labels still be attached.
Raking over old embers and came up with a few Keane’s that don’t seem to have been mentioned, this being despite some claims that all three spellings of the name had all been identified and dealt with approprately. First on the list is actually second on the WW2 rollcall, that being Albert Finlay Keane who spent about three interesting months at Tatura to mid ’42. Second cab off the rank, Edward (T for Ted) seems to have spent most of his Army life at 115 Military Hosp., though he may also have done a tour with 130 Army Hosp. in Kure, going by his demob. date. I think Nick may have picked him up same time as me, over a year ago, though obviously neither of us saw much need to put him out there. The third one is the most interesting to my re-vamped view how things are advancing. He was a Victorian like the other two, but unlike Al & Ted, who were also of the Victorian era, this chappy was, from memory of much younger Edwardian vintage and quite the character to be sure. He joined up early in the war and had been sent out to Libya with an infantry unit which did not seem to suit him one iota, and so after getting up to all sorts of military type mischief hopefully behind the front, he went that one step further to bring things to a head. He had an unauthorised “accidental” discharge with his own weapon, inflicting a non life threatening wound, serious enough to take him out of the fight. The Army brass bit the bullet so to speak and sent him home in disgrace and pending an investigation of his suspicious wounding. He was posted to Tatura where he may have been under some sort of open arrest and after a short period, this also being in ’42, he went over the hill, never to be seen again. Some time during the ’70s the audatious bastard wrote to the medals office requesting his four qualified awards including the Africa Star. The issuing authority actually lied to him in their response, telling the mallingering coward that they had no record of his service and that was that. I’m thinking that he would have been most likely of the three to have lost his suitcase, deciding to leave it behind in camp storage at the time in order not to delay decampment from Tatura. Now you’re all waiting for the name, but sadly it has evaded my usually adequate memory bank for the moment. It may well have been Kean or even Keen and I seem to recall there being variations in his related AustArch file, but never fear it’ll come back in a trice.
Misca: For what its worth, and you probably have the record, which I don’t; P & O liner Moldavia arrived Perth 4 oct. ’36 and I think you’ll find that amongst its celebrated passengers was none other than our old mate, Tadeusz Slawinski (Thadee Slavinsky). Makes one wonder if Sister Jessica Harkness managed to pick up the message? for Ted’s contacts in red leaning Gibraltar (Spanish war and wife Annie was a native), which was cerainly a designated destination on the outward journey to London that commenced on 12 Nov ’36 from Sydney or Brisbane.
JS – I do have the record and Thadee is indeed on it as well as the whole dance company. I’m not sure I understand what you are suggesting regarding Sister Jessica???
Nonetheless, going back through my files, I took the opportunity to check our friend Leon Woizikowski’s height as you suggested a while back. He lists himself as 5′-5″.
Misca: the rack! Put him on the rack! You know it makes sense. 😉
Nick – Truth be told, he’s putting me on the rack. I can’t find the posts where we discussed the first wife and I can’t remember her name so…I cannot find the files.
Also, in trying to find them I went back to Jessica Read Harkness and found her on another two trips (two parts of same trip)…
Miss J R Harkness
Departure Place: London, United Kingdom
Arrival Date: 4 Jan 1938
Arrival Place: Fremantle, Western Australia, Australia
Vessel: Ormonde
Miss J R Harkness
Age: 36
Birth Date: abt 1901
Departure Date: 4 Dec 1937
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Adelaide, Australia
Ship Name: Ormonde
Search Ship Database:
Search for the Ormonde in the ‘Passenger Ships and Images’ database
Shipping line: Orient Line
Official Number: 141866
Master: A E Nicholls
She is listed as a nurse. Permanent resident of Australia
Ok. I have found the original travel document with her on it. It was on a return trip from Sydney. 23rd of August, 1929. She and Thadee both on the same trip.
Misca: Not suggesting anythng at all and as much as Spain may have been a pleasant sojourn a week ago, Im happy to leave such whims to others at the present. Of course Jessica Mk1 had to have been somewhere before she started her formal nurses training with RNSH at the very late age (for the times) of 25, so who knows; Had she have been of a humanist/internationalist bent as an adventurous youth, the problems in Iberia may have been an attraction for her….Heard that one of our team might have been over that way recently and probably just in time too, the way things are playing out.
Albert Keane, following his forced return from the Middle East, in 1942, was posted to (MCE?) Hay so that his future in the army might be decided and he subsequently absconded from there. Hay was also known as internment camp No. 7 and it was suggested by Gordon the the assumed T for Thomas initial on the Keane tie, might alternatively have been the number seven which is quite possible I think.
Misca: Tell noxious Nick to sod off. He’s rather assertively insinuating that you’ve tarried too long at the ball, for it seems that every time the mere suggestion of ballet comes into play, he has fits of aploplexy, which are worrying. When folks try to warn others off a certain path I wonder the real reason why; I cant’ help being overwhelmed by that old “Rotten in Renmark” feeling, speaking of which, what ever happened to old Keith Mangnoson and the long promised thread overview recapitulation?. If you can manage that young Nick, I think something quite important might come to light, somthing even more supprising than the Antonio Averlino shrine in Mexico City (Montezumaville) of all places.
John Sanders: not for the first time, I have not the faintest idea what you are talking about. 🙂
Misca: Don’t want you jumping at shadows, as that would not sit well with Bozo. If its not too much trouble, this one could mean something. Same time periods ’36 to ’38 and probably ex Sydney to London via Malta and Gibraltar: Mrs. Jessica Street bn. India abt. 1890 and accompanied by 17 yr. old daughter, travelling 1st class both ways….Any idea how MV Tirranna (Mikkelsen folio) and its sailing card for Mombasa, might have gotten onto Thadee’s net site gallery about a year ago or why. I don’t really understand the workings of such gimmicky stuff, and its always perplexed me.
Nick: Perhaps you might like to get back on line with your old buddy Bozo; I have a feeling that you pair are a deal closer with things like the pomp and circumstance that even Elgar espoused. Your blatant disregard for the offerings of those that don’t live up to the standards set by your own egoistical middle class, public school norms is blatentlly evident in your greater than thou interactions with just about everyone. The sad thing is, you are quite bright in certain respects but you just can’t seem to come to grips with the fact that there are others just like you wiith a different point of view; albeit with somewhat less tony antecedants to support their stand.
John: did you not read the doormat as you came in?
@JS: Never thought of Ted (ie E) for Keane. From memory, there was also an Irish O’Keane who briefly interested me – but I think I couldn’t resolve in my head with any reasonable explanation the dropping of the ‘O’…
Re the mockup vs Fed – that comparison – 100% agree that the hat is there to give a sense of similarity. And yet I still can’t see any. One of the difficulties with Fed is that there is only the one picture – and one picture can give totally the wrong impression of someone (especially when we read detail into it that may or may not be there). Personally, I see very little resemblance – but then I see little resemblance in a lot of the persons that people propose as being SM.
I was messing around with some image searches and facial comparisons on Friday, and found the ‘other’ SM picture (the one that hasn’t been neatened up for public consumption) and the scanned bust make a good facial match – but the much publicised picture not so much. Everyone agrees that the public pictures may not be 100% original (I hope – even the papers seem to suggest the photos may have been tweaked) so that’s probably not much surprise. Of course that also helps explain Jestyn’s reaction – that the bust looked so different from the face she was expecting to see (and she may have recognised it even though she hadn’t expected to). It also goes someway to explaining why nobody identified him successfully (and perhaps why so many people came forward seeing a more generic face, or soemthing).
Not sure how reliable, but SA’s shipping database ( http://passengersinhistory.sa.gov.au/ ) shows 2 ships Ormonde – one has very little detail (and has no recorded visits to Adelaide, just a London->Freo and a NZ->Europe). The other (I’m 99% sure is the one we’re talking about) appears to have had about a 35 year life (1917-1952) and regularly visited Adelaide (Port Adelaide/Outer Harbor), including an arrival on 7th Jan 1938 – but it doesn’t appear to list a Harkness (it only lists 15 pax which seems a bit light – although perhaps that’s only the pax that disembarked there – the ship did also visit Fremantle, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane (as well as numerous non-Australian ports)). Maybe she changed her mind and got off elsewhere…
JS – They ended up in the same gallery because both Mikkelsen and Thadee were discussed in the same blog that also had that image. Nothing surprising. Just our group discussing. Google images can work that way. Next time, if you’re curious, click on the image and it will give you a source.
I have the return trip but not the outgoing. Mother and daughter return together.
Showing consideration for others and observance of accepted social usage is always a good thing.
Misca: Thanks for your explanation; I didn’t know how that worked; so how about removing stuff, does that work the same way?. Red Jessie was quite a girl, you can read a fair bit about her campaigns for Russian aid from the thirties right throughout her life and in the early days she was particularly active around those inner Sydney council areas like Marrickville, Sydenham and St. Peters. She took a great interest in the development of underprivilaged young girls who showed promise, as potential recruits for her pro Soviet friendship agenda. She was widely critised during the commie purge years, though history was generally kind to her. One of her most celebrated causes was “Sheepskins for Russia” which was particularly well received in Adelaide from the thirties until the war, and its subsequent revival after hostilities had ceased. I was akways alert to the possibilty that somewhere along the way, she may have influenced a young and easilly impressed young lady such as Jessica Harkness.
Apart from Alvington crippled kiddies home which we are all aware of, just a few yards back along The Seawall towards Glenelg, there was a similar, though much larger,Somerton Convalescent Home for destitute infants and at risk cast off (experienced?) alolescent young women, which had been taken over by the government in 1946. The place appears to have had large grounds backing onto the beach with one entry from there and its postal address, main access around the corner at No 2 Tarlton St. I guess there is a chance that our man may have had some connection with it, or else it could have been a likely hangout for a person looking for easy casual female companionship, as was likely to have been readily available. The centre also had an infirmary, which would have required some sort of trained nursing/medical staff of full and part time capacity. I haven’t heard of this place mentioned previously so perhaps now is appropriate, though a little late in the day perhaps.
Milongal: You’ll certainly be able to get to the bottom of this one. So SM was found with an unused 2nd class ticket, purchased at Adelaide Station for Henley Beach on the Grange Line. On such a short journey would there have been need for more than one class of travel, or was the class designation just a carry over from the old steam days. You suggested that he may have been given the ticket by accident at the ticket counter, with his real intended destination having been Hamley Bridge, a key connector for all points north, east an west of Adelaide on alternative regional lines. Perhaps his ticket being soggy from overnight exposure to the elements may not have been all that legible when found and the police wrongly assumed Henley Beach, it not being far from Somerton. What do you think about the possibilities of some unintentional mix up along these lines as it would certainly give some support for him having come in from a country town such as Peterborough or the Riverland regions further east.
@JS: AS you might have noticed, much of my skepticism over ‘the facts’ as they’re presented surrounds the tickets (or more accurately the contents of his pockets) – which to me have involved a lot of assumption, a bit of jumping to conclusion and in general don’t make much sense. As far as I recall (reading – I wasn’t alive back then), “2nd class” was the only intrastate class available at that time – although other classes may have been available on interstate routes. I’ve considered the Hamley/Henley confusion before (it would have tied in nicely with some of the Mangnoson/Alma theories – and I vaguely remember connecting railway lines through that area and then East into the Riverland (maybe at Morgan?)). Truth be told, first time I looked at railways I thought MLIABOetc might have been a bored mind on a train initialising station names or towns.
Not knowing too much about the physical tickets themselves, I would think the confusion is more likely either in the clerk mishearing the destination or (in my mind far more likely) SM himself being confused over it. I would imagine the tickets themselves would have been colour coded (or at least serial numbered) distinctly per route (or direction – I could imagine Henley/Grange/Semaphore/Outer Harbor being grouped as one ‘North/Western’ group (in fact I think today the lines are broadly in 4 groups Gawler/Mawson Lakes; Belair/Tonsley; Brighton/Noarlunga/Seaford; Outer Harbor/Grange). Of course, Henley Beach was a terminus. Hamley Bridge may not have been (I have a SAR map somewhere and from recollection Hamley Bridge might have been a junction). Either way, when somebody mumbles a location how do you try to interpret it? You’d probably someone dressed for the outdoors on a sunny day wants the beach….but what about someone in Sundaywear? Do you choose the higher trafficked area and would that be the beach or a fairly major Junction that leads to much of the state? It seems a little peculiar that (From memory) only 6 tickets to Henley Beach were sold that morning (not sure if people could pre-purchase, or buy on board which I suppose would explain such a low count). I’m not sure Henley (or even Grange) were necessarily the bustling seaside cafe-strip of Henley Square today (I suspect Glenelg and Semaphore would have been the two metropolitan beaches people largely sought out) – so Henley seems a bit of a strange choice. For mine, there’s 4 simple(ish) explanations:
1) Something to do with Red Cross convalescent homes. I’ll have to look back on the detail but basically there was one in Henley and one in Glenelg (Kalparra??). I think the Henley one had recently shut, so someone intending to go to the Henley one finding out at the eleventh hour that it no longer existed but there was one at Glenelg might suddenly change plans. This loosely ties in with ‘Solomonson’ (I think the guy reporting meeting ‘Solomonson’ in the pub was a resident at the Red Cross home)
2) Prosper (or Jess). Some of his ads referred to a property in Marlborough St (can’t remember if it was explicitly Henely Beach, I think there’s also a Marlborough St in Brighton – a little South of Somerton). Either way, either confusion by SM (Brighton vs Henely) or an intention to meet at his Henley home with a last minute change of plans.
3) Hamley Bridge. I think there’s a lot to like about this theory. The existence of a Jess Harkness (closer his age) in the area is nice for those desperate to make this a romantic story (he hears J Harkness is getting married and, not knowing it’s not the one he knows decides to make one last plea for her attentions). I think the biggest problem with the Harkness connection is how he ended up finding her in Glenelg (I’m not sure she was Harkness in the phone book for Glenelg, and I’m not sure there was any Thomson/Harkness announcement in the papers). The railways in that direction extrapolate nicely into other theories too…
4) The tickets were planted. For a long time, this to me has been the most likely situation. There is so much that’s hard to explain about them. Although the train ticket is often referred to as ‘unused’ the newspapers talk about ‘was punched, but never used’. I suspect this is an assumption. That is, that the ticket couldn’t have been used because he’d obviously not ended up in Henley. As far as I know, the way you can tell if the ticket’s been used or not is whether or not it’s been punched. So the ‘unused’ bit to me can only be an assumption. While it’s possible that SM managed both a train and a bus journey that day (if we believe the tickets they were bought at a similar time, and the bus ticket at least must have been used at that time (it doesn’t take too much imagination to see someone catching the St Leonard’s bus from the top of North Tce (perhaps they were staying at the Royal Coach Inn – as I vaguely remember being hypothesised in another vein – possibly a Tiborish one? – previously) to the railway station, and then hopping on a train (not sure where the route started back then – these days most routes are Through-running and go the length of North Tce). Keep in mind that we have a broad time frame for when the train ticket could have been purchased – and it’s another assumption that it must have been before the bus ticket with the intention of hitting a specific train).
There’s probably literally millions of other explanations of varying complexity.
For me, the bit that sits most uncomfortably with the tickets is their presence despite no money or wallet (which were presumably stolen in most versions of events). If the train ticket was indeed unused wouldn’t you keep it in a wallet rather than thrust it in your pocket? The used bus ticket is more likely in such a place – but even with that, why hold onto it (other than I think since the 1920’s Adelaide bus tickets have had inspirational quotes on them like ‘You can never ride two horses with one behind’)? There would have been bins on the bus exactly for that purpose, and in a day of wandering (or even catching up with friends) you would pass countless bins. While I think the tickets can tell us a lot, I suspect they potentially tell us a lot about someone else related to the case, but not SM himself…For example, suppose Prosper’s Marlborough St was in Henley. (Other than the fact he obviously liked driving) it’s quite plausible for him, or someone visiting him to have a Henley Beach ticket – which is easily planted as a false clue (possibly assuming a specific conclusion will be made (without realising the dates/times on the tickets will be worked out), or perhaps just as a ‘put stuff in his pockets so that people don’t realise we nicked his wallet’). My reading of the evidence is that the train ticket was used – and our assumption otherwise is based on an assumption in 1948 that it couldn’t have been used by SM – unless someone can explain to me what it means for a ticket to be ‘punched but unused’ (in fact I think the papers say ‘not used’ rather than ‘unused’ – which is more accurate with the rest of the traditional story for that morning)
Milongal: You hit the nail on the head re Hamley Bridge (Alma), and to keep those lads in the other camps up to scratch we’ll just toss in Balaclava and Owen; after all they are all three, practically the same place. My particular interest gets back to Keith Mangnoson’s convalescence at Alma before his enlistment in May of 1941, also that his mum had according to the newspapers, taken him there instead of the family home on the beach at Larggs Bay. Always seemed crazy that you would take somone back to scorching Almafter an almost fatal bout of heat exposure, rather than giving them a bit of the old briney to put them right; Then again who still believes that Keith, Mangnoson (26/40) and his near namesake Magnussen (33/40), were one and same?, well Nick for one it seems. Quite obviously one of the pair had to have been convalescing at the old place and it stands to reason that one might well have had a reason for seaking refuge there 8 years on. Is it not feasable that mother, Ada Wilson had taken Keith’s old Renmark mate there in his stead, to hide him from the customs authorities, fearing his arrest as an illegal immigrant. And just to give the matter of Hamley Bridge as opposed to the sound alike Hindley Beach a little more play, we might well take into consideration the fact that the unused 2nd class fare was only oneway; surely an intended day out at the beach would normally inolve a return ticket
HENLEY BEACH…is of course where all the perverts and plainclothed police used to hang out and as we all know, our old Somerton Man would not have associated with such undesireable scum.
john sanders: “perverts and plainclothed police”, lol. Written with such obvious affection for both! :-p
Vice cops may have been a better choice of words, however I can hardly get off with a retraction. Reading through Trove, does tend to give a fair understanding of what the respected locals were reporting on various nefarious activities being played out by hooligans all along Adelaide’s beaches on any summer evening. That a convenient strip, close to town like Somerton/Glenelg South would have been imune to such behavior beggars belief. I can well imagine that on one particular warm night in late November ’48, things would have been pretty full on at such a spot. And yet, no reports of anything untoward, which I find remarkable. All we have is a rather bland dusk report by Gordon and Olive about a chap lying beside the unusable stairway to the beach and nothing thereafter until dawn. Something is missing and we’re not likely to find out what. We can forget about the observer from the overlook and Gerry Feltus’ report of a drunk being carried along the beach, for such sightings only serve speculative hypothoses which doesn’t help much. What happened to the much vaunted radio car patrols and their assigned stop at Alvington for a check on reported hooligan activity in the vicinity; Nothing to report sir!, over and out.
All the information that has been posted over the years, seems to suggest that the ubiquitus little sixpenny coin was not located on the SM body, but in the Marco trousers found amongst other possessions in the Keane suitcase found back at the railway left baggage room. There seems now to be newly aquired evidence which has been posted on two other sites suggesting the coin was found on the body, along with pointers regarding its significance, overlooked by investigators. I think that we should endeavour to clear up this obvious conundrum once and for-all.
So far as we can tell from ever reluable Wikipedia, Charon’s ferry fare was an obus or danake, equivilent of to-days half penny and not necessarilly silver, the suggestion that it was something akin to a sixpenny coin of silver because of its purity, is a somewhat tenuous flimsy explanation for SM having had one on his person. The coin was merely a token by design and actuallity, not being real tender; it was originally of copper or bronze, though at times comprised elements of other metals including iron, silver or even gold.
@JS: I always thought that money was in the suitcase (And though I hadn’t been on that site a while and only went there because of your comment a commentor suggests it wasn’t a single coin (which kinda rings a bell too – although Abott (who is no less trustworthy than these other sources) reports a 6d piece in the pockets of trousers in the suitcase)).
The same person seems to echo some sentiments I’ve often expressed – the man had (supposedly) bought a (one-way) train ticket, a (one-way) bus ticket, a pasty and possibly other odds and sods yet had apparently planned the exact amount of money he was to use – because he had nought left on him. Of course robbery is possible (which sorta explains the absence of the wallet too), but at the very least it is curious….
Of course, there is the possibility that the suitcase is unrelated or an absolute plant – and in the latter case (pun not entirely intended) everything within it is absolutely deliberate.
Going off on a rant….
One thing people seem to miss (And I tried to allude to it in earlier posts) is that the possibility that some evidence is planted means there’s an inherent significance. While it’s possible that someone plants random evidence, usually someone planting evidence does so not simply to confuse the investigation, but to steer focus away from (and perhaps toward) something specific. That is, either they have a story in mind that they want people to believe, or they quite deliberately want to focus away from some real detail (or perhaps both). If we believe, for example, that (at least one of) the tickets is planted, then it likely means that it definitively had very little to do with SM (eg: that he never caught a bus that morning, but someone quite deliberately wanted us to think he did – perhaps to hide the fact that he had been in Glenelg for a week (or something)). Of course, it’s hard to believe that someone planting evidence would have predicted exactly the ‘traditional’ story (all the stuff about trains), yet if (for example) the train ticket and the suitcase are planted it’s hard to imagine a conclusion other than he was in the station. If we take that a small step further and assume the planter was too naive to realise the dates of the ticket (and suitcase) would be traced they may have intended people to think he’d arrived the previous day. The train ticket makes relatively little sense as anything but a plant – and yet you have to question what the police were supposed to think about it. It seems unlikely that they were meant to conclude the ‘traditional’ story (that he’d missed the train that morning) – especially since the ticket was (see my assumptions in previous post) used. To me that suggests someone may have wanted to make it look like he’d recently been in Henley Beach – but not necessarily that that morning he’d tried to catch the Henley train….
As always, though, when it comes to what it really means, I have nothing.
Dead meat draws crabs, SM representing the dead meat, beach hooligans, the crabs. Those young urchins would have been in their element, especially with a ‘dead’n’; Not content to take only his valuables, they might also have planted stuff on the body, perhaps even the gum, smokes and anything else for fun, things that to the adult mind would perhaps make no sense at all. They probably even propped the body up in a relaxed and restfull pose with cigarette as close to the dribbling mouth as they might dare themselves to get. Nothing mysterious about such behaviour, uncouth juvenile pranks have always been around, especially in places where decent law abiding folk tend to gather.
john sanders: it always disappoints me somewhat when people are so eager to reach for explanations that they can’t just enjoy the properly multi-layered uncertainty of a thing. The act of explaining away seems so medieval to me, as though the mere totemic presence of a quickly improvised story is sufficient to overrule eclipses, tornados, presidential elections, or mysterious cadavers on beaches.
Nick: I honestly find it so difficult to gain any fullfilment from the multi-faceted uncertainties that you most elequently refer to. In saying that, I’m frustrated that, for me it all just seems that good old common logic fails to determine what is most likely to be the overiding commonsence factors at the end of the day. I’m also addmittedly a little miffed by the lack of support we, the VERY few are getting from our Commander-in-Chief, In our endeavors to beat back some of the irrational and targeted snide remarks coming in from out of left field, in attemps to thwart our progress, obviously in the endeavor to help flagging book sales. For goodness sakes we know that the ‘Dorothy Dix’s’ are running on empty and yet, no sign of any fact based retalitory action from our commander in chief. Voynich has been waiting for five hundred and sixty six years, give or take a month; Surely we can clean this mess up first, then get on with the big ‘V’. We, the few can help when the whips start cracking, For the likes of Milongal, Misca, Devious and whoever, it would be a snap.
john sanders: hoping for fulfilment or satisfaction from the Somerton Man case is not really a good starting point. We muse, we suggest, we hunt, we occasionally find things… but given that there’s not much left to rake over in Trove, the focus now surely has to move to other archives. There are still plenty of things I’d like to find out that might reveal more details… but I’m not sure that 21st century campfire stories are a good place to start. 😐
Nick: Just a little something to get the old cogs moving again, I’m pretty sure that Ron Francis or his brother in law died only a couple of years back. Both men were sourced by raking over Trove military folios, which though not open, did provide sufficient snippets to peek into their well protected private lockers. This is what we used to refer to as being ‘those facts, from which with others, put together to create a full picture’, or in other words, circumstantial evidentry proofs. I’m not really ready to give them up yet, both men potentually just as influential in death as they were in life. To reveal their names now could lead to a procession of ill conceived attemps to unlock the doors to their respecive connections with SM, if any, which would certainly prove most unhelpful in getting to the real heart of the matter. Keep in mind the immortal words of Theresa Johnson, ‘This is higher than the South Australian Police’, and no truer words spoken in my opinion.
Speaking of our ubiquitous ‘Theresa’ better known to us as Jessica Harkness pre 1948, it seems that she may have just shown up at ‘Ron Francis’, wedding in the Crafers district ’47; So I guess she was more likely to have been Sister Harkness senior of SS Moldavia fame; Whilst I must stress that the Trove artical, which is full of errors, refers to her as ‘ J. Evans Harkess ‘, ‘Ron’s’ new bride was indeed herself a war time nurse, so we seem to be tracking a ligitimate lead.
john sanders: it reads “Mesdames S. Hopton, Sedgely, J. Evans, Harkess and Mrs. and Miss Johnston, from Melbourne“, which is surely referring separately to a “Mrs J. Evans” and to a “Mrs Harkess”.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74651937
Nick: So you exchanged the period after Sedgely for a comma, cunningly organising your spacings to be inconsistent with the print format for whatever reasons. I missed the comma after Evans which was inadvertent, but I did indicate that there were errors in the original text. If you’re suggesting deliberate attempts on my part to misinform your follower(s), then I’ll cheerfully fess up to having myself on. At the end of the day it makes little difference and you’ll find that intuitive folks like Byron anors., already have Rex John Lipman on their radar. Can you guess who the ‘brother in law’ is?..No not Dr. Sarre, he was on holiday in Tasmania at the relevant time, remember?.
john sanders: there were a fair few “Mrs Harkess”es (i.e. no missing ‘n’) mentioned in Trove, have you made sure it wasn’t any of them? e.g. Mrs Ridley Harkess of Mylor (a Superintendant of Red Cross Aid?), Mrs Inez Harkess, etc.
I don’t give too much weight to the assertion: ‘This is higher than the South Australian Police’ – these sort of statements are problematic. This might be made by someone in the know, or someone who has grown paranoid over time, or someone partially in the know, or someone with their own conspiracy theories…
As I recall it was said By Theresa/Jess Harkness/Johnson/Thomson/Powell ‘s daughter (that is someit like ‘mum said there were more powerful forces than the police at work’) as part of a TV interview which itself could be a bit of attention seeking. To me this makes it susceptible to misinterpretation and/or exaggeration. I also tend to think as people get older they often get more paranoid (although this paranoia does sometimes reflect their own experience – e.g. my grandparents fled Eastern Europe around WWII and I remember both my grandmothers become irrationally paranoid about Russian spies in their old age).
While there may well have been powers above the police involved and even pulling strings, I wouldn’t believe it based purely on that statement.
But I’m skeptical about a lot of things.
So now we’ve migrated to a dropped “n” – “Harkess”? Trove actually doesn’t do very well with “Harkness”. I’m not sure why, but it’s a bit confounded by the name and regurgitates a lot of dead end related leads. There are many variations on the name. One could spend hours on the non-related results.
It’s already bad enough that we don’t really know if she was really a Harkness…Do we really need to venture beyond to variations on the name?
Unfortunately, I have been pulled back into family health issues and haven’t been able to look into much. Still reading whenever I get a chance.
Let’s be clear about names. They are not clear at all. Australia was very “modern” about these things during the war. People were changing and adjusting their names as their circumstances required without too much difficulty it seems. I’m not implying that Jessica did this just that she could have, quite easily.
Lots of reasons that people changed their names. Some legit. Others not-so-much.
Misca: Sincerely hope all is well!..Yep, names like Vida Joyce Denbigh Russell-Allen-Jones-French &c. come to mind, though Nick’s Harkess intervention appears to be on the mark, which was a case of my misreading of punctuation in a Trove wedding article. I see that you still seem to be interested in the Allison Verco/Bean letters and was wondering, firstly if they are still in play. I was out of the loop entirely when the Jazz revelations were being discussed and am still not entirely sure which Sister Harkness they were refering to. Back to her relationship with Joyce and the fifth column assertions, allegedly made by her friend Scarfe (sic); I have a feeling that the copper mentioned, was most likely to have been Det. Ray Kelly; Mainly because he was a known, socially connected, Paddington/Elizabeth Bay based ladies man who shared many things in common with her. These would include age, country town origins, an assumed detestation of all things Jewish and their clanish fraternal orders’. He certainly had known links to at least two influential Allen families in the inner Sydney city area, one legally based t’other not. For pure interest sake and nothing more, Ray worked with people like Errol Canney and the immortal Bumper Farrell. Just after his retirement he had some peculiar interest in the Beaumont Kids abduction case and was cordially welcomed by okd detective mates on related quick visit to Adelaide CIB. His ‘on the job names’ were Gunner and Verbal, the later of which he is now being taken to task for, in absentia, along with long gone partner Errol, for a 1952 murder conviction in which a statement was extracted under duress, hence the aptly suited new description, ‘police verbal’ coming into common useage thanks to defence attorney Isaacs.
Oh! that Daphne Paige. I didn’t realise… I’m trying to find a story on Joy in Spain from the Newcastle Sun or Herald circa. 37/38 which I once took from Trove.
JS – I have it but I can’t search for it until later. I’ll post when I can.
John, Oh. If Errol’s mates were Bumper and Gunner I now see him in a different light. Both Bumper and Gunner were despicable bastards, and clowns to boot – laughable fools, but deadly.
Byron: Spot on, but Bumper was worse and Ray could be suave in the right company, like crooked lawyers, stipes and state polies of any pursuasion.
JS – They were from June/July 1938. She was in Adelaide visiting her family after 12 years travelling abroad. New York, Italy, Spain, Berlin, etc… There were a few articles – one about recipes, one about her trips and clothes…Any particular one you need? What’s the connection to Daphne?
Misca: Just to see if she gave up any names that might be familiar to me now. I’m almost positive that she and Daphne Page have come up together in newspaper articles. Did she leave a recipe for Bavarian apple strudle by any chance.
Slow Sunday arvo and so a couple of minor points.. It seems that SM may have gone to his maker in the very undignified manner in which he came into the world 50 years beforehand, unclothed, as is indicated by his beach attire being presented by Len Brown in ’78, of which I hadn’t been overtly aware. I was also not familiar with Leon Leane’s claim that the TS slip was extracted from SM’s coat pocket, in his presence which goes against the grain of everything we’ve heard. Also interesting to me is Lawson’s inference that perhaps our man, although broad shouldered, was not so enormous, suggesting perhaps that he was a little shorter than the 5’11” we have been accustomed to hearing. It may or may not be so relevant that Ron Francis’ Hillman Minsk that Feltus has not retracted from, to my knowledge, was apparently not so little, being described as a four door family sedan in it’s most usual format. Rather spartanly equiped though, without such luxuries as an enclosed glove box in the 1948 version and only a low parcel tray in those models produced pre war…..Things are also slow over the way, with only a little chatter about pregnant nurses, which to my way of thinking might be deemed somewhat oximoronic; wouldn’t a budding Sister of that era be more knowledgeable about avoiding conception, or alternatively knowing what to do about it should such a biological annoyance transpire. We always seem to be interested in young Robin McMahon’s paternal links, be it SM or one of the Thomson brothers, but I don’t seem to recall any doubts being raised as to the birth mother. Could we have overlooked the aspect of confirming maternity by making the assumption that Jessica was Robin’s mum, which may not be the case at all..Beer o’clock is upon us thanks be to Him/Her/It.
I was just looking at it again, and if “assassination” is spelled correctly, then “MLIAB” could be interpreted as either Alain or again. Alain is, of course, the French version of Alan. But I know most people want these ciphers to be more complicated than they usually need to be. So perhaps MLIAB O AIAQC is the first, last name and middle initial of someone. That would be so cool if I’m in the least bit close.
The Mail (Adelaide). “Ideas for the Recipe Book – From Other Lands”. July 2 1938. No apple strudel.
You most certainly have done much research. Why throw it all away with so many confusing posts? Makes no sense to me and I am no longer inspired to chase your tail. Fool me once and all that. Entitled to knock out others who play the same game? Bleh.
I’m quite happy to continue to ignore those who like to play silly games. Quite confident in my knowledge that I know much more.
Stacey E – wtf?
Stacey E: You may well be onto something, though a little more translation detail would be in order. I’m always happy to cross check any conclusions you might draw, against my own decipherments based on JC’s chart which I’ve found to be most helpful. (predictable also).
The challenge is answered thus; Adolf Josef Sladek, Austrian national, a fitter & turner of Port Kembla NSW is very well documented for his assistance to the Major during his stay at Loveday, when they were having problems with the potpouri mix which included all nationalitues, mostly hostile to each other. He was asked to keep an eye on things in his hut (10/14D), having particular regard to one particular disobedience co-ordinator and disturbing element. Whilst Adolf had been at Tatura previously, I’m unable to confirm details of his quarters; Fact being, the man was only of some passing interest to me, though I’m sure that his trade qualifications would have come in handy for all manner of interesting tasks. Camp discipline was said to have improved from late ’42 through ’44/45 by which time Captain Walter ‘Ron Francis’ had arrived and was put in charge of the Italian labour crews out in the fruit/grape growing areas. Don’t know what happened to AJS after his release in ’44?.
But alas my friend, and i do mean that most respectfully, i have in various ways already provided the information you seek. The names of the interrogators are nominally Bob Wake and Valdemar Augenson, whose enterprise was chiefly responsible for setting up the very camps we are refering to, so as to suit their specific aims of collecting intelligence from those most likely to provide it, on terms most favourable for the purpose. When in later years, Bob was in the process of trying to die with some degree of dignity and perhaps looking for a little credit for past unheralded patriiotic duties, he sought the services of his old pal Jim Cavanagh, who promised to do his best. The alleged annonymous code breaker for the Rubaiyat cipher, was most likely to have been a joint effort between Bob himself and his lifelong clandestine pal Val. Not so difficult, in somuch as they devised it in the first instance, possibly as a prank. I once spent time at sea, as first mate, ‘master chef’ aboard a once famous schooner rigged 73′ ketch. With an unserviceable compass for most part, but reliable charts, dual chronograph and somewhat agricultural stearing gear, we escaped to the open sea. After a reef grounding, the result of our attempts to outrun Typhoon Bruce and having our auxilliary rendered inoperable, along with a broken boom, we found ourselves mostly at the mercy of the elements. One Canuck competent sailer, an insane Irish Captain, a crew of distraught river smugglers and an equally terrified part polynesian ‘tucker fucker’. What does one do in such a situation?, well to start with, you hang aft for a bit and contemplate the options, like drowning at sea, then slip over the side, saw off the bent propshaft, then you run up a jury rig and get on with sailing in the general direction of the intended destination. That’s how it goes down son and so we keep moving forward always optimistic of a favourable outcome. Whilst we may not be great mates for most part, we should not consider ourselves enemies either and our goals at the end of the day seem remarkably similar, don’t you think?.
Information from an unconfirmed, though reservedly reliable journalistic source says that tickets were located in an inside coat or, in my words, vest fob pocket, which probably supports Det. Sgt., Leon. Lean’s own claim relating to the location of the Taman (his words) Shud slip, as opposed to the trouser fob… Any thoughts for or agin would be welcome. I’m happy to go with the flow and Nick, being the moderator can have the dissenting nay vote if a split be neaded. Not being able to log into the U of A site these days, I’d like to check the respective Inquest witness depositions, particularly those of Gordon Strapps and Olive Neil, so perhaps some kind soul might suggest an alternative means.
(What’s U of A? University of Adelaide?). Somewhere in the national archive there was a whole bunch of inquest type stuff – I suspect it was related to the Doco in the 70s (which is a bugger to wade through).
Milongal: thanks, I’ve been through all that. I wonder why Munro didn’t try to locate the the young pair and yet characterise them with actors in the doco as they should still have been around. One does wonder what became of young Olive who would be now aged only 89, about the same as Micromeister or even Bozo the clown prince of mirth, which is barely decrepit by today’s standards.
I wonder what fool it was that put the word out that SM could not have been Jewish due to a certain state, attached to his lower private appendage. Obviously some uninitiated tyke who doesn’t share a like deformity and who accordingly deserves censure or even partial circumcision for daring to point us in the wrong direction. When a lad of the faith presents for his Bahmitzvah ceremony, the kindest cut does not necessarilly have to deprive him of the whole piece of kit, indeed it depends on a number of possible factors, on how much or how little, if anything at all needs to be excised. Some strict faith enforcers might insist on the lot, other Rabbis, clans or non orthadox sects may not; it depends on how one interprets the Torah’s instruction, as to what is best for the new man and his equipment…. We assume of course that SM was not wearing the customary aussie head wear and also chose somewhat unusual manner of dress, not consistent with beach attire, that the average Adelaidian might be sporting at such a time? and venue. Now had he been wearing a small skull cap, to accord with his own prefered headware traditions, then is it not therefore reasonable to suggest that it may later have been mislaid, covered by sand or possibly merely overlooked when the body site was searched following discovery. From what facts we are privy to, there were at least two horses and maybe eight to ten people stomping around that part of X marks the spot prior to the arrival of Officer Moss on the morning in question. I’d say that based on certain other items of apparell worn by SM, consistent with a particular type of personage, he was more likely to have been of the Jewish faith than perhaps any other…To be continued God willing.
I’m quite confident that if necessary, I can secure reliable evidence to confirm earlier held views that the beach stairway opposite Alvington mansion was not in general use between April through December, 1948 and which, for unknown reasons has not been discussed to date. Jim Blake, the curator of ‘Sea Change’, Holdfast Bay Historical Society will have both photographic and documentary papers on file to support this view I suspect. Apart from the extensive damage caused to most of the timber beachside structures along the Holdfast Bay forshore, Glenelg Pier itself was virtually destroyed by the April storm. This should not be confused with the even more intensive damage attributed to the May ’53 storm which actually undermined many sections of the Sea Wall between Henley Beach and Nooralunga?, culminating in the need to bolster the whole berm with defensive boulder formations. I could go into more specific detail, but suffice to say that the picture portrayed in the Littlemore film of 1977/8 is not indicative of how things looked previously. Those with reasonably sound focal ability will see by close examination of the original Advertiser photo of the death scene, the obvious absence of horizontal footsteps above the erronously described stair riser supports. Repairs were in progress and it seems that a concrete pour was in process of being undertaken to complete the works for the coming summer beach season. John Lyons and his wife were likely to have accessed the beach from nearby Wyatt St. where their home was situated, walked in a northerly direction, thereby arriving in time for their first sighting of SM about 6.45pm. Gordon and Olive arrived closer to dusk, parked near the stairway atop the beach; After observing SM from a vantage near the fence posted roadway overlook, they would most likely would have made their way, via the embankment to a seat set up on a lower concrete berm, with the express desire to unintrusively check their subject of interest. From details in statements later provided to police, they did not attempt to use the precarious stairway descent, this being attested to by their claims of having only partial views to SM. Also supported by Olive’s description of having ‘climbed down’, hardly the way to describe using a set of stairs in my own opinion. Did one of the pair, or their well dressed companion at the railing throw a cigarette down in an attempt to gain SM’s attention, each of them being obviously inquisitive from the onset; I think it highly likely in view of something else Olive attested to. If the cigarette landed on SM’s collar and stated insitu without garnering a response, it would seem to suggest that he was close to expiry at least. So advancing the debatable proposition that the cigarette was in place from 7.30pm until dawn, that suggests it is most unlikely that the dead body was interfeared with in the interim period…Comments appreciated from genuinely interested observers.
A quick check of Synagogues for Adelaide indicates only one in 1948, situated in Fullerton Road, Glenside which is the same geographical location as the old Parkside asylum. Could be poor SM got a leave pass from the hospital, and after attending a prayer meeting, made his way to the beach for a day of sun and reflexion. Poor fellow might have just been all dressed up with no where in particular to go. Nothing to investigate there!
Upon reflection there’s no need for correction
As some may have gathered, I have decided somewhat reluctently to go back to day one because quite frankly I find it quite imperitive to do so for my own peace of mind. All the original excepted property related evidence really lacks cohesion with far too many contradictory factors to be of any use period. Before doing so however, I’d just like to clear the air on some of the claimed credentials of one who has been involved mostly in the collection, collation, description and presumed evidentiary value of the various exhibits familiar to us all. Gordon Cramer would you mind clarifying your claimed intelligence operative background and likewise associated investigative expertise; Such as would enable you to make certain opinions based on professional experience. This is not my idea of entrapment and so my own beliefs of your likely prowess should not be of any real consideration. I will be the first to admit that you are certainly a man of some considerable talent, however you’ll surely agree with the old ‘Ron Bankton’ addage of making sure of your man. Frankly speaking I am a always the unapologetic doubtful Thomas when I see posted personal accreditations; more particularly when they include the sad old pseudo affiliations with Aboriginal and Torres Straights Islanders, of which I am proud to claim close relationship.
John: if you’re interested in Gordon Cramer’s credentials etc, I’d suggest going over to his site.
@JS: From memory, much of Littlemore’s depiction seems set on the promenade just South of Glenelg rather than at Somerton. I tend to allow some ‘artistic licence’ in re-enactments and the like – because (whatever the aim of the actual documentation) the re-enactment itself serves only as a dramatization to give an idea and doesn’t necessarily aim to depict events as accurately as possible.
Nick: I’d gladly comply with your suggestion if that were at all possible. My attempts to log in to Tamam Shud blog have to date not been rewarded. As a consequence of something I picked up on more recently, I’m now aware that Gordon’s site does not accept Gmail as being an accredited means of proper communication for the purpose of correspondence. Knowing that the gentleman follows Ciphermystries with great interest, I respectfully advise that it seems to be the only viable means of putting forward my reqest for his personal credentials.
Gordon: Thanks for your prompt and timely response, details of which I accept unreservedly; So now we might move along in a more positive and confident direction. Nice to see that you have picked up on the Bob Wake relevance at long last and I trust that you will continue your probes into this interesting and most resourseful character. Val Wake’s ‘No Ribbons or Medals’, his first book about dad is recommended reading and he used to be a reliable letter correspondent with Bob’s mates, one of whom was old Jim Cavenagh, in the latter’s federal senate days. Val was up until recently living in the south of France where he still writes and pursues his love of sailing as far as I’m aware. My attempts to get a peep into dads well researched 1948 diary, have not been acquiesced to this point in time, though I shall pursue this lead with zest.
……And as for my miserable record of service, I can’t really see any point in talking too much about it; only to remark that placed along side the likes of yours and that of your esteemed mentor Gerry’s, it would raise not be likely to raise too many admiring glances…When I originally spoke about ‘Wereward’ Wake on TxT over a year ago, the information provided included just about everything one would need to know about his obvious involvement in SM’s demise, from my personal point of view. I also spoke of his presence at the Air Pageant and such things as his simple word/letter association shorthand style. Alas for some reason my informative post did not get a mention; Though of course we are now all quite familiar with your other mentor’s lack of appreciation in matters pertaining to intelligence. What other reason would an honest man have in witholding worthwhile information, I ask you?, but know matter, it’s probably still down there in the place somewhere.
I’m also now surmising the possibility that SM could have earned his post war living as an itinerant fairground worker, particularly related to shetland pony rides for very young kiddies. I note that on the weekend prior to his demise, there was such an event being held in the Glenelg area, related to centenary celebrations and apart from his equine associates, such a man was not likely to be missed. I’m sure that the nags would have found a good home.
Intelectual composure, or intellectual anything else is likely to be more than your front lobal matter could come to terms with Bozo. I can’t help recalling when you dared to venture into Voynichville with your usual ploy of trying to play the old Dorothy Dix game with our grand master of ceremonies. An ignominious retreat for boofheaded pete followed, with nary a word about silk roads or swallow tailed ten day camels thence forth. You did get it almost right about my daily social habits though, all but the two fisted typing which was never really my forte. I sure could belt out a R.of I. with my left paw while grasping a suspects scrawny neck firmly with my right until given the sign; “Please can we do a deal sir”…..”Trust British Paints son…Sure can, how do you like your tea one lump or two.” If I don’t see you soon, remember me to Dogga as the kid from Rawson Street ‘Epping ’59.
SM had two combs on his person, one of which was metal and quite typical of the pony mane and tail grooming type. In his alleged belongings were two pieces of equine servicing items, one being a very nice little dual purpose brush suitable for eye, ear, nostral and hoof care, as well as for salve application. Then of course we have the small halter harness nose ring and lead which the property list refers to as a loupe; Sure a loupe without a glass and having no provision for the setting of one, which is plain loupey. When talking of Shetlands, they can be dirty little fellows towards the aft end, hence the need for binding the tail butt end to prevent fetal matter from smearing the rump area. This can be rectified with a length of light cord, which a we know was also provided for in the kit along with securing safety pins as I recall. The Shets can also be nasty when of a mind and like nothing better than to bite into an exposed shoulder when master is bent over attending to tender parts of the hoof and fetlock areas below the front end. Remember the mended damage to SM’s coat, well that could be the result of a horse bite I’d say with a degree of caution. Of course by now I know better that to expect agreement for this proposal, but I’m glad to have it out there for comment nevertheless……. I think that Morphettville racecourse was located just down the way from Saint Leonards/Nth Glenelg so that would seem to satisfy stabling requirements. Of course horse transportation could also be arranged from there for a nominal sum, though probably not a consideration for SM who would not likely have been paying too many bills.
Lads: The reasons for your banning could be related to the fact that neither of you have anything relevant or worthwhile to offer this or any other SM related site. Get a life or get yourselves a nice little serviced old folks apartment at Woy Woy and spend the rest of your embittered miserable days doing first level sudoku puzzles.
John: can you try to get a bit of a grip before clicking the Send button next? A couple of deep breaths should do the trick. :-/
@JS: Not sure whether there were other posts there, because it sounded like you were having a convo with someone – but I didn’t quite understand who you were replying to….
I’ve never been sure whether you were familiar with Adelaide or not (sometimes you seem like a local, other times not so much)…so in much of what I write I assume not (and add too much geography as a result).
Morphetville Racecourse (I think it’s now called Alan Scott Park, or something – presumably as a result of an advertising deal with Scott’s Transport (or Ascott as I think perhaps it used to be)) is at the corner of Morphett Road and Bray Street (alongside the tramway, and across from the tram depot – neither of which would have been there in 1948), and would be about a 2+km walk East of Glenelg. The stabling there (these days) is partly on Morphett near the corner of Bray and largely along Bray St.
While I like your Horsie theory to some degree, I’m not sure a carnival would stable at Morphetville (I thought/assumed Circuses and Carnivals operate on the cheap and tend to set up temporary stabling (and the animals are to some degree used to fairly basic/cramped housing)).
I also wonder if he was from the Carnival whether his attire fits in. In part because of the condition of the shoes (which I don’t think would be consistent with hanging around the carnival all day?) and partly because by all reports the clothing was a reasonable quality – and while I sort of get that Carnies back then might have had a different dress sense than today’s ones, I think they’d still wear cheap clothes (eg a Harris Scarfe’s or Lowes’ Suit rather than a Trent Nathan or Ferrari or whatever (it probably shows that I don’t know fashion labels)). I also would expect a carnival to travel together – so it counts out the suitcase at the railway station (which I’m ok with in some respects, but was the mended clothes the ones he was wearing or the ones in the case?).
Finally, I would have thought the carnival would report a missing ride operator. I kind of understand that they’re not necessarily locals, and may have skeletons they don’t want found – but it would be odd not only that THEY didn’t report him missing, nobody else seems to have come forward saying “Good Gosh! He looks like that impeccably dressed pony handler at the Carnival”. While I realise we have a tendency to block people outside our immediate 50 (or so) acquaintances, there are people with very good memory for faces, and at a popular carnival I would expect at least a few people to make the connection (even with a crap newspaper pic that barely looks like him – if that is the case as has been asserted before).
Easy reader version: I like the idea he was connected with horses. I’ll take a lot of convincing that he was connected to the Carnival.
Although that said, it just occurs to me….
Would a pasty have been the type of fare you’d find at a fair in those days? Or [w|c]ould it have been an easy catering solution for a carnie gang?
Is my message showing? …
I have been having trouble for some time to find the original thread that I commented on about the Somerton Man. Is there an index on this site so in future I can find where I post?
Milongal: Thanks for your thoughts on the SM pony ride post and as always I have the utmost respect for your useful input. Just to emphasise one or two of my related suggestions which are by no means intended as being my absolute standing on the matter. Why would a bloke be carrying a metal animal grooming comb in addition to a normal bugrake of the standard type. Why might he also have in his possession a pony sized horse lead and a best quality brush most suited to equine useage. It’d be nice if some one with the expertise could use their focus adjustable macro lens to pick up a brand name on said brush and perhaps have a crack at identifying the siutcase latches. Indeed I have spent time in the Adelaide area, though somewhat involuntarily and not so long after SM’s reign of terror. I must admit that I personally felt suicidal for most part and was not sad when word came for me to leave for more exciting foreign parts.
Nick: I apologise unreservedly and yes I will endeavour to ignore provocative, though admittedly enjoyable rebukes from t’other side. If only I could secure assurance of post rights, I’d be happy to join battle on that front, but alas…
In..out..in out..en garde..I’m in total agreement with Bozo on this one boss. The wiley cuckoo’s, at times inopportune pronouncements, like the great Charles Mikkelsen apendectomy scandal and the all too hasty Mordialloc College identification have not contributed one iota towards giving a better understanding of things in general; Indeed the latter disclosure only served to curtail at least a months worth of vitaly important discussion, which was most inconsiderate of our nasty little feathered friend.
Milongal, speaking of carnies, there was a sideshow at Glenelg on the Saturday prior to SM’s death.
The Advertiser (1st December 1948) page 10
“Lost Saturday afternoon. Glenelg sideshow, one brown wallet. F.S.D. on left hand top corner: Quantity of money, railway ticket and one petrol ticket. Finder return Glenelg police. Reward.”
Emma: your original comment was here – http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-356988
Subsequent comments (by me and others) pointed to the Whitcombe and Tombs Rubaiyat as the only solid link to New Zealand, though I have made a number of posts about the Pahiatua Polish Children’s Camp, to which one particular commenter has claimed a connection.
http://ciphermysteries.com/2016/07/04/wahine-passenger-lists-1947-1948
http://ciphermysteries.com/2016/06/28/teaching-adelaide-migrants-to-speak-english (comments rather than post)
Byron: what are the odds that this was SM’s missing wallet? 🙂
Nick, acceptable odds I think. Mr F.S.D.
Nick: I’ve been sitting around here with nothing much to do but go over old ground. I believe that the F.S.D. Glenelg sideshow wallet deal is exactly what it has always known to have been, a dead issue. I’m not saying that it was originally offered as purpose generatated deception ploy and ‘sideshow’ when it first came to light some years ago however. I think that Milongal may have covered it again just recently and from what I recall, the loss was resolved with its return to the rightlfull owner who was apparently very much alive and most delighted to have his property back.
When the Lyons group attended the scene around 6am, the sun had been up for more than an hour, There they found two horsemen and their mounts already with the deadman. The 9ft high tide around 4.40am, would have just turned for its run out and in my estimation should have been very near to where the various attendees were gathered. What it is that really gets to me, in the first instance is, that horses are excercising at such a late hour after sunrise, more especially seeing that moonlight would have enable ample visibilty for pre-dawn workouts. The other worrying part of all this is, when one considers the larger than usual high tide factor, horses would not be very likely to have any running room along the beachfront at all. It seems more likely to me that the trainers must have taken their mounts along the Sth. Esplinade roadway to reach Somerton, then have taken a path down to where the body was. In doing this it might well be a reasonable consideration that they perhaps had some preknowledge of what they’d find and where to find it. If there happens to be a better explanation, then I’ll be most happy to hear it, but as things look from my shoreside easy chair, Somerton man and his association with equine pursuits is looking more and more likely.
John: isn’t it simply the case that the tide having not long reached its closest to shore, the horses would have been compelled to ride closer to the shore too, and so would have been almost forced to confront the dead man?
The only fact that connects horses to the dead man in any non-speculative way was that the South Australian Grandstand Bookmakers’ Association paid for his funeral. And yet, as Byron Deveson wrote here in 2014, “It turns out that the SA Grandstand Bookmakers Association donated quite significant sums, often fifty pounds, to many charitable causes in the later 1940s and early 1950s. The basic wage in Adelaide in 1948 was five pounds seven shillings, so a donation of fifty pounds was essentially ten times the weekly basic wage. A significant sum in those straitened times.“
Nick: A fair point with the horses, if their was any sort of space for them to move between the wall and the water, although the old photos don’t seem to support a case for the defense; also in my own experience with race horses, day break is when they need to be back at the stables for the start of another part of their daily track schedule. By the way, as if you may not have noticed, we are running a little short when it comes to primary evidence, so giving in to a little off handed mild speculation is not likely cause much harm at this stage. Obviously you’re not alone in pooh poohing the horse comb and nose ring lead, so obviously I must be mistaken and they are what they were always described as being; an army issue bug rake, (troops for the use of) and a loupe de loupe, sans glass, for assaying ore samples. We’ll cheerfully agree to disagree as usual I’m sure.
Don’t you get firmer sand where it’s wet? In that case riders wouldn’t riders be more inclined to be in the shallows?
Meanwhile (in part thanks to Gordon’s latest post) I’ve found some more interesting stuff about Fedosimov – to the point where I’m absolutely convinced that there was only one Fed – and therefore he is not SM.
As well as references to him on the UN’s statistical committee in NY (in 1946), there’s a Slovenian American newspaper from February 1948 that advertises Fed as a speaker on the topic of:
“Unity and peace in the world.”
This to me is consistent with my earlier suppositions about Fed falling out of favour because he didn’t support the Nuclear program – and I think is consistent with him subsequently representing the USSR at the Atomic Agency conferences (which deal with mitigating nuclear risk).
Of course, neither of the two appearances above discount him being SM – because they’re while Fed was still in the US.
In 1957, however, the first Secretary at the Embassy in Libya is listed as “FEDOSIMOV, Pavel Ivanovich”
Further, it adds wife: “Vera Sergeyevna”
This means that the Fedosimov listed as being on a watchlist in 1951 (the date was previously disimissed as poor intel not knowing Fed had died, I think) is the same Fedosimov who was working for the Russian Embassy in Libya 1957. I *think* (though I can’t find it at the moment) that there’s a mention to Vera in relation to the Pavel Ivanovich FEDOSIMOV of Venona fame…In fact a post in this thread seems to suggest there was a 1944 record of Pav and Ver travelling to the US.
The only thing that bugs me a wee little bit about GC’s finds (which is some in-between detail to those above) is that he has Fed’s DoB as 1904 – which strikes me as different to what I thought (but I can’t find what I thought his DoB was – nor why I thought it – I think maybe off imigration records).
Anyway, in my opinion, the likelihood of there existing a Pavel Ivanovich Fedosimov and a Pavel I Fedosimov in a similar role in a similar time was always remote. To me it now appears that both are Pavel Ivanovich Fedosimov, and both have a wife called Vera Sergeyevna.
I am now comfortable enough the Fed (I used to have a shadow of a doubt) is not SM to stop digging into his past.
There’s an tall, unnamed well-dressed man in a 1956 picture of a Canadian foreign minister (Lester Pearson) meeting Russian foreign minister (Vyacheslav Molotov). Over time, staring at the image I’ve convinced myself it’s PIFed. I’ve never presented it before because I have no reason (other than gut feeling) to think it’s him. But if you google “Pearson Vyacheslav Molotov 1956” it should be the first picture that appears (with an airplane in the background).
(I remember the wallet coming up a long time ago, and I thought everyone agreed that it’s hard to make a connection)
@BD: I think (assume) that’s that sideshow is where JS’s pony theory tied in.
I know the times and terminology was different then, but when I hear ‘sideshow’ I think ‘penny arcade’ rather than carnival. I know much later (like 1980s – but before the likes of Timezone) there were 2 significant video game arcades in Adelaide. Downtown (on Hindley St) and Magic Mountain (near Colley Reserve, Glenelg – where the Beachhouse now exists as its replacement)). I sort of remember a display at the Maritime Museum (Port Adelaide) linking Summertime beach visits and penny-arcades – and while in my mind that particular display was about Semaphore (which certainly these days has rides and sideshows for most of the Summer), the presence of Magic Mountain to me suggests that there may have been some sort of permanent sideshow there (not sure if my memory is playing tricks, but I sort of remember another arcade in a shed just North of Magic Mountain, between the beach and Colley Reserve – but this wasn’t so much video games as old-school ‘skill testers’).
Interestingly, Wikipedia talks about ‘Luna Park’ being at Colley Reserve from 1930-1934 – so the area certainly has a history of carnivals and amusement centres – and perhaps a Summer Carnival was a regular occurence.
Anyway, about the wallet. I don’t like it, other than it totally annihilates most of the ‘arrived from Melbourne that morning’ ideas. The lost wallet had a train ticket in it. There was a train to Glenelg back then – it ran along a similar route as the current Glenelg Tram – to Victoria Square. There had been a (competing) route to North Tce that hadn’t survived and was dismantled. So let’s assume the wallet had a Glenelg Railway Ticket. This suggests that whoever owned the wallet found it more convenient to travel from Vic Sq than from the buses on North Tce (probably about 800m as the crows flies). To me this suggests that the owner of the tickets on SM is not the same person as the owner of the wallet (which could of course be because the evidence on his person is bogus….). Secondly it talks about a ‘Petrol Ticket’. I’m not sure what that is, but to me it sort of suggests the person had a car. While the train ticket shows that the person was willing to use public transport despite having a car, you sort of have to ask what happened to it? Did it get towed by a council who gave up trying to contact the owner? Did it get stolen? Did it rust out, forgotten in a driveway somewhere? Probably loads of plausible scenarios – but it adds an extra ‘thing’ to explain. It’s also hard to make a connection other than ‘SM didn’t have a wallet on him’ – and with all of that we still don’t explain SM’s pocket’s contents (neither the presence of the tickets, nor the absence of any loose change).
WHoops – my bad. Apparently the train line became a tram line before then….
Nick: Close your eyes for just a mo. Thanks to Stacy E., I have just come up with the most definitive and logical meaning for DANETTA , which was apparently decoded from the Kaldar suicide letter. The answer actually fits like glove and its simple cipher derivation has such a ridiculously easy solution that I’ve decided not to divulge same in order for others to have a crack at solving it. Basically it is Tibor’s directly naming of his betrayer, the person responsible for obtaining his release from his wartime incarceration. In a rather stoic acceptance of his inevitable demise, such an outcome is based precisely as The Rubaiyat ending suggests and is rather prophetic in its predictable finality; Tamam Shud just like SM.
My contention has always been that Somerton Man’s rather timely demise was as a consequence of the Labour Government needing to assuage allegations of inaction by our foreign allies. Simply put, SM was likely to have been specially selected for eliminationon based on his anonymity and perhaps a background deemed to rend him more expendable, to the good folks encharged with the concept of operation ‘Hereward’. I’d hope that the sancion was undertaken without undue malice or inconvenience to the victim on the part of his assailants which appears to have been the case. The outcome was obviously more than successful, going on results gained for all parties, based on our ongoing strong tri- parthide alliance. Of course the same situation cannot be said for poor Tibor Kuldor who should have been astute enough to see that his days as an invaluable informant against his old Tatura buddies were numbered; afterall a collaborator can’t expect too many accolades or favors. His offing was also made easy by the fact that he claimed no relatives or known ties to speak of and so it was a simple matter of arranging for the tragic suicide of a lonely reffo, then preparing supportive evidence for our old friend Detective Canney to conveniently find and file. As to the perportrators, or at least the planners, the wrath of God came down upon them both within a relatively short time after the executions and they lost powers that they could not have conceived as being possible, in those heady days of 1948. Whilst the mates were still known to be brewing and plotting together many years afterwards nothing seemed to have come to anything worth their while and I’m sure that in their embittered final days, they each may have had some reason to regret their past improprietys. If my admittedly somewhat fanciful concept of quite a logic based scenario still does not appeal, than all I can suggest is that good old Prosper and his fine lady are still out there along with Joy, Allison and their Soviet installed co conspirators, all still upto mischief and not for a moment even contemplating their eventual undoing.
JS: Please not the Danetta….it’s cringeworthy.
These days we just roast a pollie instead – although Barnaby and Michaelia seem difficult to roast.
Are you suggesting a ‘false flag’ type event? I can’t really agree – for that to work you need to be able to sell an espionage story – which didn’t happen (I’m not saying there was no spying, but for it to be a political event it needs to be something that Joe Stupid can assume/understand – and to me that wouldn’t be mystery that survives 70 years). That said, if I play along for a short moment, I don’t know if you watched ‘Sherlock’ (the 21st century version) where they had the plane full of dead people….if we play the political idea, isn’t it possible they just found a cadaver somewhere rather than actually killing him? And could that explain some of the vagueness/innacuracy around time of death, lividity etc?
but I can’t help think we’re over conspiratorialising it…..
Milongal: My Danetta is sweet enough to eat believe me. Two plain clear mesages from Tibor, each absolutely explict in their direction for both his killer and those charged with effecting his apprehension. I’ts so beautiful with its ingenuity that, for the life of me I can’t see how the lads over the way could not have cracked it. A game changer for the asking, any way you look at it.
John: if you truly believe that nonsense, you’re surely close to losing your Danetty. :-/
Nick: I certainly don’t recall saying or implying that I necessarilly believe any of the nonsense you seem to be suggesting. I am enjoying the game however and am happy to play it out just so as to keep all my cards on the old widja? table just in case I fall on my fat old face and need to apologies for being a doubting thomas. It seems that I’m also resigned to keeping my D…..a decipher to myself which was predictable in the prevailing circumstances, but no matter my ghost writer loves it. As for you Milongal, not a false flag in the manner you suggest, but merely a gently fluttering replica to confuse the belligerant parties. There are no spies to speak of in operation hereward. The planners were certainly not aware at the time of any foreign spies or security threats against our great nation. Only make believe local insurgent collaborators that conveniently end up getting taken out. The sole aim being to assure our Soviet menace obsessive partners, that their concerns had been taken care of by professionals, and so let’s get on with saving the world from Godless communism.
John: as long as you realise that I find some of the theories floating out there in the ether “tee boring” for words, everything should be fine. 😉
D: I have no idea what happened to our pastie threadline. Getting back to the Chapman’s store; it was actually part of a chain owned by the Henderson family at the time of our interest. The company had its main smallgoods factory in the foothills at Nairne and processed a huge variety of pork, beef mutton and other vegetable based produce. At one point in the ’40s the company employees included in excess of 400 process workers at the plant, which included huge general cooking, brining and ham smoking works, along with abatoirs, holding yards and cold storage facilities. Besides the two founding brothers George and Albert, there was a younger man William Chapman who could well have been family, renowed for his knowledge of Pastry cooking and bread making. Somehow I think that had SM been hanging out for a hot pastie or perhaps a cold suet pastry version of same, then he needed to look no further than the Chapman Smallgoods (deli’s came later) outlet at Glenelg… At home in the bush our pasty’s (?) were on the large side, comprised of suet pastry, high gluten flour, special herbs/spices, peas, swede, spuds, apple, onions and assorted gelitinous beef offcuts like calve cheeks. Mostly eaten cold with great relish at any time or place, even in a secluded corner of the schoolyard, lest others get wise to your treat.
I have in my possession the complete set of the ‘Courage and Friendship’ books by Whitcombe and Tombs. Some of the books have personal messages in them from the people that gave them to the last owner.
I am born and bred in Christchurch in New Zealand.
I managed to acquire these books when I bought my current property from its previous owner. I bought the property as an investment to renovate. The previous owner was an elderly lady who had lived in the property for many years.
The writing in the books are as follows:
Forget – Me – Nots Book:
Merry Xmas
to Pattie & Ariel or Arnie ??? – Not sure of this name ( But happy to scan and show you)
From Val & Selwyn
Golden Threads Book:
Dear Patty
Very best wishes for Merry Xmas
Happy New Year from Val
I initially showed a book seller and he explained to me that these books are very rare and only a handful exist in the National Library of New Zealand. Subsequently after doing some research online I have been led in the direction of the Somerton Man case.
I’ve been doing some research into the former owner of my house and neighbours have informed my that she was connected to a fire that occurred at the Ballantynes Department Store that occurred on 18th November 1947. There is an article on Wikipedia on this subject.
I somewhat feel that all these things have a connection to the Somerton Man?
Perhaps Byron could be brought back into the case to compare some of the nasty chemicals used in the tallow rendering and skin tanning processes, with those found in the SM hair samples..Whilst traipsing around in the Adelaide hills district recently looking for copy, I just happened upon the delightlful little cherry/apple growing village of Summertown which I can’t recall from our brief which was kind of regretful. Some folk like that sort of name familiarity when away from home and would in my view be readily attracted to another with a similar sounding name. And I guess the same could be said for nearby Hambley Bridge and Henley Beach; some folks are funny like that.
with new revelations that the TS code could be connected to international chess it seems quite certain that Danetta is now officially dead in the water; what a bummer. Why can’t there at least be some consistency with game changing disclosures. Seems that I’m now resigned to consigning my beautiful translation to the scrap heap of failed SM plots, without any opportunity to show my stuff. I guess in these times of Trump generated fake news, it might be expected, but it is most disappointing nonetheless.
john: the probability that the Rubaiyat was carrying radio chess notation is so close to zero that you couldn’t slide a (mathematical) fag paper between the two.
@JS: Is that Chapman as in THE Chapmans that still makes smallgoods en masse (I have a vague recollection of the first time we drove to Canberra. We stopped through Mildura, and in the local supermarket there was a shelf of (what I suspect) was all the same sausage dressed up in different coloured Chapman’s** packaging to keep all the states happy – Fritz, Devon, Strassbourg (I reckon this is something else, but they tell me the Vics call it that), Polony, Luncheon Hamper …Growing up in SA we’d sort of been indoctrinated with “There’s no Fritz in Sydney”, and I was vaguely aware that they called it “Devon”*, but this was the first time I’d actually encountered multiple different versions of the same thing marketed totally differently….
*my wife insists that they taste different, obviously leaning toward Fritz being nicer – but for mine the generic supermarket ones are all the same – and once you start looking at specialty ones then you will always get variety – naturally we tend to favour a good Barossa Bung Fritz when we can get it
**Doing a quick google, I think it may have been ‘Jacobs’ not ‘Chapmans’….but the question about whether it’s the same Chapman remains….
Emma: on 19th August, it appears that you told us about SM having worked in Christchurch ’47. Nick responded mentioning possible connection with the Rubaiyat, suggesting a private consultation. Misca also responded suggesting connections to the W & T publishers and a one time employee of interest to her line of inquiry. Did you make the contact invited by our moderator or is your latest post a conseqence of not being able to further your research by other means. If you are any closer to being able to divulge the name you would associate with the unknown man, could you please do so. Your possession of the book collection is rather intriguing and more especially in that it appears possibly a consequence of the big fire at Ballantynes in ’47. However the flyleaf notations are a little difficult for me to come to terms with, but I’ll put it together somehow, no worries.
Milongal: Jacobs-Henderson-Chapman, same original company. Devon – fritz – pressed luncheon (strassbourg), similar sliced processed budget sausage. Polony, never heard of it, is it known in Tassy or WA perhaps. We have the same stuff over my way; tastes like nothing but kids love it.
Emma: Can you elaborate a little more as to why you believe that the Ballantyne disaster of ’47 connects with your former house owner and the possible identification of our subject SM.
With today being the 75th anniverary of the ww2 Kokoda Campaign. Reminds me of an old army mate living up Repentance Ck. way in the deep north of NSW. His uncle was a VC winner in the Solomons ’45 and he runs a thousand head of rare hairy nosed wombats on a hundred acres of land not deemed suitable for the cultivation of marijuana, was the chief cash crop up there not long ago. Oigle is an intellectual bookworm of some note and reached a much higher rank than me, though his memory has fallen off a little of late. In our last but one contact, I spoke to him about a certain new book that he might care to look for, read and tell me if he enjoyed it; I never heard back from him so I got back to him, albeit with more than a little difficulty. When asked about the book, he gave it a less than five on the good read scale, commenting that he never thought well of sheilas writing books, which sort of stumped me, knowing that my earlier recommendation was written by a bloke. When queried on what he had read, he replied with, ” That one you mentioned, ‘The Bookseller of Kabul’, and certainly nothing to report back on”. Now that sets me to wondering which one of us is failing with his recall abilities. I didn’t bother setting him straight, knowing now that spy novels are more than as likely not, not his cup of tea either.
Those blasted kids Olive and Gordon lied through their teeth and contradicted each other as well and I think their original statements may have been somewhat more revealing than their later testemony if we could locate them. I’m now prepared to concede that they may have made their way down the un treaded stairs to their bench perch, however they did this only so to get a closer view of SM whom they had initially seen clearly from above, but at a greater distance. Their claim that they could only see him from the waiste down whilst seated is probably true, but they got an eye full whilst on their up and down the stairway I bet. They must have suspected that he was dead or dieing by 7.45pm and I’d reiterate that one of them likely threw the bumper (Moss) or unlit smoke (Lyons) at him to gain some better insight on his state of well being. It’s mildly interesting that they knew the truth when they came forward the next afternoon, for although it was reported in the Advertiser by then, they were unlikely to learn those details until after their respective workdays were over, say about 5pm. This leaves me pretty satisfied that SM was, as suggested by Lyons, the same man in the morning as the chap he had seen the previous evening. It also seems to deem an offshore direct beach delivery less likely in hindsight, seeing that it would have to have been done in daylight. As for changing dead bodies for living during the evening rather remote. Now with someone recent raising of the tired old pasty business, is there anything to be gained from it apart from us learningng a great deal on related Adelaide cultural culinary trends?. Actually it was Dr. Dwyer who first brought the subject up and by the way, he stated quite non commitedly, pie or pasty (sic) not giving one or t’other preference. Of course he might have given further options such as potato burek or placki to satisfy the SM’s Continental origins had he been a little more considerate, and what about a wrap of hot chips for the sake of colloquial equality. As for the sole first hand witnesses for the morning discovery, such as the strappers and their steeds of course, not even a nod from them, nor the elusive Detective Harry Strangway who must have left his notebook back at the post; all the more strange that he just never plays any further part, though it comes to mind he was rather ancient at the time and might have passed on before the inquest.
Just made this one up and its worth passing on for a giggle I trust. The DA is a well known euphemistic abbreviation for ‘ducks ass’ as in Presisdent Donald Duck’s hair style. Its also our good friend Derrick’s initials and some may see a neat comparison of sorts. ‘Netta’, as most on this side of the pond would be aware, is Greek for ‘duck’, so we end up with a double duck break/’down’, that those geese on t’other bank might call a ‘game’ (wild duck) changer. I trust that this doesn’t serve to discourage any of our sharper wits from advancing their own Bombay/stic daffy duck puns. Da danetta is destined to live on in infamy thanks to a ‘pair’ and their Muscovy mates.
Daffy, a dapper young flapper from the Swan Reach area of South Australia’s Riverland goes into the ‘Duckie Daddles’, a Danish theme pub in Moscow’s orthodox bar area. Some inibriated Ionian barfly therein greets him with a feigned welcoming hand flap and a most inappropriate “Mine’s Carlsberg, Danish; what’s yours duck?.”; which prompts our feathered friend to offer his own flapping right wing and reply equally rudely in kind; “Mine’s Carl Thompsen, Aussie and hows ya muthers ducks Gleek plick”. This rebuke seems to stump Zorba rather handsomely and without further ado our feathered friend proceeds to get into his cups quite unmolested. Eighteen beers later, just on closing time, the barman looks over, raises his own glass in salute and announces “Drink up my duckies last one”; this prompting the curt reply of: “Atten!” (down the hatch in Danish), which Daffy complies with, then turns about and waddles his way out exagerating his gait most most effusively. Just shy of the exit, the equally tight Helenic patron approaches, remarks on his linguistic fluency, then challenges condescendingly whether ducks are ‘effluent’ in any other languages, to which our little Aussie flapper glibly replies, “Da,netta, spaseeba !.”(Yes, duck, thanks) (crude Russian/Greko orthodox), quack quack quack!!!….This is half the solution fellas if you can work the rest out it could be a proverbial game changer. By clever use of the number 18, it provides yet an additional good possible connection to TK, ‘atten’ being it’s Danish direct translation.
We should of course thank Bozo for his timely re hash of my own recent crudely drafted and randomly sprayed information on the Minx; as to it’s having come standard without a lidded glove box as such. Also his interior layout pic of a 1954 model, the one that he conveniently identified as a late 1940 job and which just so happens to have been the last of the pre war series commercially offered. I’m almost sure that in light of the pretty photo, comments that I didn’t get or deserve for my own poor effort, will now come flooding in as well they ought.
Seem recall seeing an interesting TBT Hillman Minx post from ‘Flash’ that now appears to have been flipped in a flash, by an oversight no doubt. Certainly hope that the whole deal was not just a flash in the pan as the offering seems to have been quite a game changer at first blush. Not to worry, I think I still have a copy somewhere if he needs to have it reinstated.
Just a couple of little snippets for those who may be more interested than me. For one, some may not be aware that a Thomas Ambrose Keane from Brisbane was a member of the C.P.A and there is a strangely limited access to his 1945 Eureka file on Austarch. There was another Tom Keane who mysteriously disappeared in Sydney, who was subject of a post death fraudulent claim upon his assetts and a coronial inquiry conveniently declared him deceased, but that was back in ’08 so presumably is of no interest to us. And for the Kudor enthusiasts, our old pal Tibor was not the only Kuldor at Tutura during the late late ’41, early ’42 period. Another Hungarian engineer named Stephen was released after a month and went on to serve bravely at home with our mate Helmut Hendon in the illustrious third AIF Employment Company for the duration til ’45. None apart from the last named seem to get a mention after the war, so anyone who may be interested, go for it.
One day I’ll get your name right Tibor Kaldor old son; a man deserves a little more respect and consideration when he is no longer in a position to defend his own legacy.
Tibor: As a sign of my good intentions, which I might have done some time ago; this one’s for you son. Amongst other things the name Kuldor has both Hugarian and German derivations suggesting ‘Prowess in battle, bravery and leadership’. It just so happens that the surname Keane and its derivations, which evolved along different lines, has its middle English and German versions giving more or less the same meaning, ie. ‘Bold and sharp, brave and proud’. Is this disclosure of any significance? perhaps not; what’s in a monicker after all; a rose by any other name!.
I’m not so happy for this diversion, but lacking any other insightive leads, allow me to advance one more concerning Tibor Kaldor that shoudn’t upset the applecart. It seems that Tibor went all out to get himself taken on as a British subject more than once and in the end he had to settle for second best, according to his own set of standards. So wouldn’t it be quite appropriate for him to also treat himself to an anglicised name to go with his newfound status as a true blue Aussie. Himself being a qualified? language teacher, the conversion from Kaldor to Keane, its English equivilent, might have been well known to him. No need to mess around with Tibor for as he would also have known, his christian name whilst being fairly uncommon, is the acceptable form in Blighty which would be convenient in his case. Now we know that he had two suitcases and that neither came to light after his demise on 14/12/48. If he had been travelling for the Meyer company, you could assume that one case might contain sales goods and accept that it was possibly appropriated, need we say anymore. As for the other we are at a loss, though now we may have a logical answer in the suitcase that turned up at the railway left baggage depository on 14/1/49, known more familiarly as the Keane case because of its contents. The calendar month could be significant, had mention of it been included in the death note property instructions, which may have not been so specific as to identify any particular piece of luggage. So the subsequent delay may have been attributed to a mandatory wait in compliance with legal procedural orders. One of the items found therein, a white tie displays T. Keane with a misplaced cursive initial seeming to be quite similiar to some of those on Tibor’s papers. As for the printed surname, the letter K is also consistent with those on Kaldor’s docs, without the extended arm flare which would not have fitted the tie’s narrowness. As for the other kit, there are no stand out items that would point directly to the suicider, likewise nothing could be ruled out either and there is also a possibility, as has been alluded to previouly that the contents might well have been shared belongings.
John: if there’s even one good reason for Tibor Kaldor to be linked to the Somerton Man (beyond the mere fact of sharing adjacent mortuary slabs), I’ve yet to see it.
Nick: When the offerings are scant, Tibor helps to pass the time away.
Proximity (time and physical) is the closest link between TK and SM – -but the diversion is not entirely without interest (and there is a vague resemblance between the bust and the pictures of Kaldor – which from memory cause some speculation in other circles where).
So far, nobody has given me anything more than an “i would think” on how common death was in Adelaide and what the chances were that two possible suicides happened within a week of each other. That they ended in the same morgue is no coincidence – even today Adelaide only has a touch over 1mill people, and I think back then anything in the metro area would end up in the same morgue. We could equally find interest in the fact that the SA Archive has SM, Clive Mangnoson and some bloke who died in a motorcycle accident (I forget his name, but Arthur Amery rings a bell) in the same file GRG1/27/00000/79). When we assume things are related we will always find a way to connect them. We could equally get excited that enquiries about the Pyjama girl also come up if you search ‘Somerton’ in the archive….but it means diddly squat.
Regarding ‘Danetta’ – while I think it’s an interesting coincidence it’s worth remembering:
1) ‘D’ must be the most common opening to a letter
2) ETA are the 3 most common English letters, and I think most people agree N is sixth (and I’d imagine suicide letters often begin ‘I am sorry…’, I apologise…” or similar – so ‘Da’ at least to me is easily dismissed as a coincidence)
3) It seems odd to go to the effort of sneaking ‘Danetta’ in (and right at the beginning), but there’s nothing else interesting that has yielded from (an admittedly) unnecessarily long letter
4) The first post about Danetta was mildly interesting, but once we start to talk ‘Bible Codes’ my cynical glasses jump onto my eyes. The second post seemed to misunderstand some results from a crypto site (which merely listed different features of a text like “First Word”, “Last Word”. “Every other word”, etc) and was (at the time) read as conclusively showing a Danetta link – but to me was borderline incoherent and didn’t make much sense.
That said, there is 1 or 2 little niggles on the ‘Danetta’ idea that I can’t easily make disappear. – and that’s the apparently deliberate split of ‘inconvenience’ on lines 1-2. Nothing else in the letter is split this way, and you would think you’d realise a long word wasn’t going to fit on that top line. The only other explanation I can come up with (and it ain’t a great one) is that in his haste he wrote ‘convenience’ and re-reading had to add the ‘in-‘ in – but that seems unlikely in what otherwise reads as a thought out letter. There does seem to be some unnecessarily clumsy language at times too – and despite claiming ‘…I have taken…’ you would sort of assume it had to be written in advance because you want to know you’re going to finish it before falling asleep.
So I’m not totally prepared to dismiss ‘Danetta’ or Tibor’s letter as being significant in the Tibor story….but that doesn’t to me mean it necessarily relates to SM in any interesting way….
Direct quote from Leon Leane who when quizzed on his recollection whence the Tamam Shud slip had come to light…SL: Do you remember being given that bit of paper?…LL: Yes it was in his coat pocket!…Leane was apparently with John Cleland when the slip was found but little John never mentions where he found it. His only mention of the occasion refers to trying on SMs tight fitting coat which seems rather significant bearing in mind that he was not so big or of portly proportions. The only person to specify the trouser fob, was Len Brown who was not even present when the slip was found. Might it have actually been secreted within an inside fob of the jacket or vest (there has been mention of both a vest and knitted pullover, neither of which has ever been sighted) and subsequently mistakenly listed as a more common trouser fob. I have seen an early publication in which it is mentioned that the unused rail ticket was found in an inside pocket of the worn jacket, so maybe the slip was there too, folded not rolled and perhaps not hidden at all.
Does it not seem particularly strange or disgusting that an “Investigator” would try on a dead man’s clothing ? Makes my stomach churn .
bd
Was the ticket unused? One account talks about ‘punched but not used’. To me it would seem once it’s punched it’s been used – so to me there’s an implicit assumption that it was unused (basically because it would have been a struggle to use both the train ticket and the bus ticket, and the body is closer to the destination of the bus ticket, therefore I wonder whether the ‘unused’ bit is actually something like “Although the ticket had been punched, the deceased could not have actually travelled on the Henley train, because within 15 minutes he was on a St Leonards bus”….
Insert my normal rant about not really trusting the tickets at all
bdid1dr: Strange or disgusting to the average Joe perhaps; though not to a fellow like Sir John Cleland, a man of infinate professionally based interest in a wide diversity of fields including the pathology of human disease causation and effects. He would have had his own reason for trying on a dead chaps jacket, possibly just to give him some feeling of closeness the subject and his desire to assess all of the possible vagaries associated with his unatural demise. This was a man, 70 years of age at the time of his involvement, who had been instrumental in solving other mysterious deaths and who had described his 7000 autopsies as a most absorbing journey of personal discovery, comparable to his friend Douglas Mawson’s famed antarctic explorations. Amongst other oddities was his profound interest in such subjects as Papuan traditional recipes for the cooking of human flesh and vegitable toxicology, the latter of which must have been a source of immense frustration to him in the SM case. So trying on a dead mans clobber would have been a mere walk in the park to old Jack, woudn’t you say?.
Milongal: We’ll get to the bottom of this yet though it may be awhile. Could he have decided or been advised by a fellow rail passenger or better still a helpful conductor that the Grange/Henley Beach line was not for him. Perhaps he then alighted at Bowden Station and picked up the St. Leonards/Nth Glenelg bus and continued on towards his destiny. My guess is that the service runs from Bowden Entertainment Centre Station these days, but I know we must also consider the inquest detail suggesting the 7d fare from somewhere between City Station and West/Sth. Terraces. Your move Mr. Busman.
Just in case we’re looking for another neat little acrostic; check this one out. Walter Lewis Somomon Bridgland (7th) Garrison Military Police Component Queensland, ie. WLSBGMPCQ which seems to cover the initials and all of the additional letters of the SM code? more than adequately with no extras or omissions so far as I can tell. You’ll not remember, but I once spoke of a little Hebrew prayer book that Wally was said to have carried with him during his wartime service. Although it was perhaps a somewhat smallish FRANCIS Fitzgerald 1859, 2nd edition Rubaiyat of the W & T Courage and Friendship pocket printing, it may have appeared as looking Shlomo to an unknowing gentile fellow AIF officer who served with him in the Middle East, New Guinea or perhaps even in the internment camps post ’44. Wally could well have been Sgt. Leane’s ‘city businessman’,who lived at 8 Pier St Glenelg in 1948 as I seem to have mentioned recently.
@JS: Bowden is a little distance from the city, and (at least in my lifetime) crossing the Adelaide Rail yard is a sluggish process – and that was in a (admittedly slow) diesel-electric, steam I suspect is slower again (although I don’t really remember what it was like before they shifted the interstate trains to Keswick – or even built the Concourse as it is today (where the trains terminate undercover). The Glenelg Tram was only extended to the Entertainment Centre in the last decade, and the walk from Bowden to Port Road would take 5 minutes or so. Bowden itself is a split station (platforms on either side of the rails, not in the centre) so to transfer back to the city you have to cross the rails. Torrens Road (in the other direction) may have carried buses as well, but it’s probably no closer than Port Rd – and both would require some local advice to know of their existence from the Railway Station. Walking Bowden back to West Tce would probably take at least 20min if you walked fast (the shoes, man!) and knew every possible shortcut, I reckon. I don’t recall the exact time frames, but where I’m going with this is that getting back to the city on time for the St Leonards bus could be very tight/impossible – nonethteless it might be interesting to find old train timetables (And bus routes) to verify there wasn’t a different option back then….
Adelaide’s transport (like most cities, I guess) has always been city-centric – that is, that the focus is on moving people in and out of the city rather than between suburban centres). A lot of Adelaide buses were run privately, and although MTT (Municipal Tramways Trust) eventually took over most of the system, I’m not certain in what era. I think anemptyglass had some better information, but for me one point of interest is where the St Leonard’s route started (these days most North Tce routes are through-running (ie come from the Eastern Suburbs and go to the Western Suburbs) but I think that’s a more recent optimisation. There seems to be some certainty that the ticket was purchased between the Railway Station and cnr West Tce/South Tce – which to me suggests the Railway Station is the first stop. While this is plausible, I would have thought it makes more sense to start at East Tce (or even Hackney Road where the depot used to be (where the Conservatory and the Wine Centre are today)) – so I can’t help but wonder whether much as (IMO) the train ticket is ‘assumed to be unused’ rather than ‘definitively unused’, so too the bus ticket being purchased no earlier than the Railway Station is an assumption based on the presence of the train ticket. If the bus started earlier in the city**, then there’s plenty more stops where the ticket may have been purchased. Given Adelaide’s central commercial district focuses around Rundle Mall (back then, Rundle St) it would make sense to have buses that either pick up in King William St before turning into North Tce or travel the whole length of North Tce – either of which would still be Section 1….
**Based on everything I’ve heard about the ticket, I assume the vagueness of where precisely the ticket was purchased is down to Section Numbers. All of the city is Section 1, and the numbers increase as you leave the city (I think roughly every 2 km – but it’s not consistent). If the ticket is punched ‘Section 1’ then it must have been bought in the city, and (based on the Conductor’s testimony) it sounds like he was required to record what serial number his ticket book was up to at each section point. I think I’ve ranted about Sections before – and the AdelaideMetro site has a bit of an explanation of how they work (if you look at one of their timetables you’ll notice on the maps little triangles that indicate where sections go up or down).
Somewhere (might have been busaustralia dot com) I remember reading about defunct railway stations that I want to have a look at. A slight side-thought is that if someone found themselves on the wrong train, there might be some signalling that stops or even slows the train as it passes the old Adelaide Gaol (I have a feeling there used to be a watering post for the Steamies somewhere there) where the switching house used to live. It might be possible for someone to hop off a train in such a spot – much closer to the city, or certainly North Tce.
Francis or Edward; what’s in a name; he at least lived in France, though well prior to his poorly received 1859 Rubaiyat translation. You’ll note that my own decoding of the same title includes the words ‘military’ and ‘Queensland’ which in Wally’s service record are abbreviated to omit the Y and the U, neither of which fits the code letter content. Ever heard of Yacob Uris; neither have I.
Milongal: Yes I agree that the key is in the time window available for him to leave the train (if taken) and make the 7d fare St. Leonards connection. Say he gets off at Bowden as outlined, then upon making enquiries at the station bus stand, is then taken to a route convening point by a helpful driver heading along South Terrace to another destination. The intercept would probably take care of the time element and SM is once again on the right course. On arrival, he has time to take a light pasty break in Nth. Glenelg, before perhaps continuing on another south bound bus down Partridge or Moseley Sts. towards Sommerton Park.
Oops – Actually, it looks closer Port Rd than I thought….I hadn’t realised the railway and road diverge – so I was thinking more the sort of distance Woodville is from Port Rd. But you’d still want to know Port Rd bus routes/timetables…
Port Rd at the time would have been serviced by Trolley Buses, which as far as I can tell ran down Currie/Grenfell St rather than North Tce – and I think only as far as Light Sq (which I guess sort of questions my earlier assertion that buses likely ran the length of the city). There may well have been an alternative Port Road bus service – but not sure where I’d find it.
If he had to use the trolley bus to return there would be a short walk to North Tce, but he could pick up the bus near the Morphett St bridge. He could also walk to West Tce.
A small issue I have with this idea (same too for the hopped on another train idea) is if this were the case he appears to be selective with which tickets he kept and which he discarded…..for no apparent reason.
Probably also worth considering how much everything would cost. The St Leonard’s bus was sixpence (or was it 7?) I would assume that was a standard ticket so a Port Rd bus would be the same (although the top of Port Rd might just be within 2 sections of the city and might be cheaper (Adelaide still has a 2-section fare, but not sure exactly how sections worked back then). I would guess the train would be a little more expensive. Based on today’s prices, a busfare and a pasty are a similar price, so at the very least SM must have started out with at least 2 shilling (or a florin).
Leer al Reeves y traducir el texto el científico fallo en la ubicación de la calamidad en guinea
Ẩn danh: Xin lỗi tôi không hiểu viết tắt của Reeves tôi cảm ơn. SM bệnh ê bô la?
James Reeves?
Milongal: Gentleman Jim, ‘The Immortal Jim Reeves Album’ (Mexicaly Rose, Mexican Joe). But it can’t be him; died in a plane crash ’64. Bimbo was his big hit in early ’50s and my first white pfeller favourite. I’m thinking Anonimo is maybe getting him mixed up with namesake Christopher Reeves (Superman) who o.d.’d on kryptonite at one time.
The only piece of evidence that police could reliably connect the SM body to the T. Keane suitcase with, was said to be the carded Barbour linen thread; because it appeared to match no less than four stitched areas on his clothing, including a button replacement. To start with, it might be pointed out that the thread itself was thick as treacle and not suited at all for the purpose to which it was allegedly put, being of a waxed very heavy flax linen. This type of thread would be used for leatherwork mainly and for equestrian use such as saddlery and harness repairs, but also mane/tail braiding and horse hair jewellry for example. A much larger neeedle or even an awl would serve in conjunction with the kind of applications described and of course no such instrument was listed as being found. Now the really interesting thing about our particular Barbour thread card is that we are talking about specific purpose single threads of a certain set length, not the one yarded piece that would be most usually encountered. In fact I can’t find any mention of such ‘threads’ in any Coates Barbour wax linen thread advertising material through the ages; so one might well put the question, how long is a piece of thread and what was the original intended purpose.
When return ground one ancient by david
with the bird is month peace a not earth turn’d pomp
my loved in and bloom of a into and quarrel corner
in the that makes thee shadow a myriads stories told guest after but
John, a waxed Barbour thread kit was commonly provided with waterproof jackets etc. Motorcycle jackets, outdoor waterproof gear and probably seamen’s gear. Barbour did ( and still do?) manufacture waterproof motorcycle jackets.
Byron: Since my last barbour post, I have found reference to threads of the single variety but not barbour specifically. I can’t recall what brand we had in our army housewife kits though I suspect that barbour would have been the most likely. The kit was most useful as it it contained a host of other sewing and general repair items for use by any handy digger. I’m thinking that Kean’s threads card was a commercial type for the simple reason that a military issue was unlikely to have had a brand for security reasons.
Not being able to digest or comprehend all the cemantics connected with the page configurations of a certain book or books which no one has yet seen to the best of my limited knowledge; just for fun I thought I might just toss Tessicas old phone number X3239 into the wiki wiki 2 nominal rolls for kicks. The very two first tries were a hit, one a West Aussie grunt named Marshall and the other a Banana Bender with the equally CM familiar surname of McCrae. I don’t believe that it relates to a conspiracy, but it surely confirms that the feller upstairs is up on the SM case and that he has wry sense when it comes to creating co-incidental diversions.
John McCrae was a signaller which means next to nothing of course.
Motorcycle jackets eh? Pruzinski rearing his head again?
It’s certainly an interesting thought that the ‘phone number’ may have been some other type of number. For mine, this is where things always get awkward, though. The Rubaiyat breeds too many coincidences….but by all reports it was a very, very common book.
I’m not sure the book mentioend when GF talked to Mr Francis. Was it before he retired, or when he was writing the book (it probabl;y doesn’t matter, but I increasingly think he was Polites)?
And talk about ugly heads rearing again, looks like old Con Polites’ ghost might be in for a rude awakening with the saddening Beaumont case being tramped out once more. Certainly hope that the GAB family are able to cope with the media intrusion that’s bound to occur. The Francis book episode seems most likely to have been after GF’s retirement though I don’t recall that it was specifically mentioned. In fact he does not say much at all about the make up of his ‘cold case’ duties with Safcol (sic). I think you’ll find that Con was in Sydney around SM’s time, but that’s not to say he didn’t come back home regularly, didn’t he come from down Gerry’s neck of the woods or a bigger town nearby.
Just a thought – if you’re out of town a lot then you might remember dates a little better.
Copper: “When do you think you found the booklet in the car?”
X: “Well, I know I was back in town arounf the time the Parafield Pageant was on, so it must have been around then”…
milongal: I think you’re stretching this a little in your quest to draw inferences from what is essentially a blank sheet of paper. 🙁
Better to write to SAPOL to ask them to release Ronald Francis’ real name. Or start a petition to do the same thing? Or both? It’s coming up to 70 years ago that the Somerton Man died, so it surely soon must be time that this came out into the open.
Definitely a stretch – based mainly on a ‘feeling’ and partly on some dodgy speculation that ‘Ronald Francis’ is a (clumsy) obfuscation rather than a randomly selected pseudonym….
There’s also a G.C Polites recorded in (West?) Croydon in S&M in the late 40s. And curiously none in Port Pirie – where the family farm was. Polites should be C. G. rather than G.C (his dad was GC – but I’d assumed his dad was still in Pirie).
There’s advertisements in trove suggesting Polites ran (or at least owned) a Service Station/Garage in Port Pirie (about 3hr drive North (and slightly West) of Adelaide) around 1946.
I can also find references to at least 2 properties in the Glenelg area in recent times, coincidentally one being on the corner of the Esplanade and Wilkinson Ave in Somerton Park (Wilkinson is the next street South of Bickford Tce – where the crippled children’s home was, and the next North from Whyte St where Lyons lived) – but before anyone gets too excited it was built in 1987….
I don’t really think the identity of Ron Frank is particularly important (it’s interesting, but mainly just as a means to explain why his identity was suppressed – and for me CP would certainly have obvious reasons for not being released in investigations in modern times (the 70’s and later in GF’s investigation).
SO you’re probably right – it’s a long (and largely irrelevant) bow….
A “Business Owner in Jetty Road” (this article from 1944 – he otherwise disappears until 1951 – when he’s accused of using poor building materials on Anzac Highway, Plympton)
BLACK MARKET WHISKY
Man Gaoled In Adelaide
In South Australia’s first black
marketing case in liquor, Constan
tine George Polites, 25. cafe pro
prietor, of Jetty road, Glenelg, was
ordered imprisonment for two
months. He had overcharged £1
Fix this text16/9 on each of two bottles of Aus
tralian whisky he sold to an Allied
serviceman.
The case was heard by Mr. L. E.
Clarke. SM
Havent read all these posts but has there been mention of Harkness being related in some way to Jim Beaumont? A cousin or something, is that right?
Con Polites would certainly fit the local or city business man criteria.He was said to have operated a ligitimate fleet of taxis in the Glenelg area post war, though we can’t be sure of the exact time line or whether he lived in the area….Prosper Thomson was a non licenced owner driver of hire cars who would probably have been in competition with Con and therefore a hostility between the pair may well have existed. As far as we know,he was a local resident, but status as business man would perhaps be a little too over the top….Walter Bridgland lived in the area was certainly a business man with two shops in the Adelaide city centre and also happened to be an Alderman. Wally was the City Council director of traffic and Chairman of the City Taxi Licencing Board, friendly toward registered operators like Con Polites an probably not so the likes of Prosper and other operators of illegal Taxi services….So who amongst the trio satisfies the necessary criteria for for the Ron Francis book prize. Certainly not Prosper who whilst perhaps being a local, is not entitled to be regarded as a business man and isn’t known to have had a brother-in-law living nearby (he did later). Con Polites certainly has the business man credentials, though he may not have been present during the time we are concerned with and we know nothing about him having had the required brother-in-law….As for Alderman (soon to be mayor) Bridgland, he fits all the necessary qualifications immaculately, as I’ve attempted more than a few times to get across. What‘s more, one could not imagine that such a personage would need any attention from the press, especially being a devout Jew. I can’t see that the Adelaide Police would have any problems about maintaining a non disclosure of identity pact for 69 years or so.
Alf Boxall, was perhaps reading about the strange case and something jogs his memory about the tryste he once had with Jestyn back in June of forty five, before he went up north. He recalls how he wrote to her as a yearning former lover, from Rabaul in forty six a couple or three times and finally had gotten her ‘dear john’ letter informing him that her new man Prosper was a better lay and that Alfred shouldn’t dwell on their past short time affair, as it meant sweet fannie adams to her. He happens to know both her address in Adelaide and connecting phone number x3629, which he had obtained once in a fit of longing from his old 13 Water Transport mate Jimmy, now working as a phone tech for PMG in Mosman, NSW. Thinking about payback for sweet Jestyn’s having given him the flick, he initiates a certain chain of events, the reverse of which we are more familiar. That is by letting the SA wallopers know serrupticiously about suspicions that his old squeeze could be linked to Somerton man and a soy ring, giving them details of her nursing background, the several attempts by the treacherous bitch to procure strategic allied shipping information, along with the Rubaiyat connection as well. All the information obtained from the newspapers is thus channeled back to Adelaide, perhaps through a third party and the thing just plays out from there, only in an opposite direction. Thus Detective Sgt. Leane retrieves the book from wherever he obtained it from, writes the phone number on the back cover which he passes on to Erol Canney with explicit instructions, who then in turn fronts Sister Jessica Harkness with the little W&T Rubaiyat and revealling the tiny detail of the confronting phone number, which is a puzzle to her. After explaining a possible connection to an old flame of hers during the war, knowing also full well about the missing book from the newspapers, she readilly agrees to try for an ID, thinking it could be a mock up of old weeny dick Alf that she is likely to be facing. Whether she goes into a dead faint through relief or disappointment, only she could possibly know and she ain’t giving away women’s secrets. So as a follow on, the local Sydney fuzz do their job totally in the dark and no body is the wiser, apart possibly for Leon Leane, who’s too proud to let it be known About his sneaking suspicion that he may have been duped by a person or persons unknown.
Jason: Quite so, back a generation and second cousin status which is adequately ruduced to nothing meaningful through the provisions of ‘the six degrees of separation’ phenomenon.
John that is spooky isnt it? 2 unsolved mysteries in a small town like Adelaide with a common denominator. I wonder has anyone dared to suggest the two could be connected?
Jason: Adelaide did not gain any brownie points from the likes of Salmon Rushdie in the must visit stakes and it does have a creepy reputation as the murder capital. Strangely no body has ever been able to connect the two cases, though many have lost credibility trying. It also goes without saying that no case for murder has been established and unless something is found within the next day or so, it will likely remain that way. Expand on your own thoughts about either case or conjointly if you have an opinion.
@JS re BiL: According to Trove, Polites had 2 sisters.
In 1935 one of them cancels an engagement with a guy called Tsangaris and a month later marries a Kiriakos (I was surprised at the spelling – I would expect something more like Kyriacou but maybe that’s a modernisation). Polites was a groomsman at the wedding. The other (much later, I think – in the 40’s) gets engaged to a Jackomas.
The curious thing is despite the 1944 article, I’m struggling to connect him to Glenelg at that time. Certainly since then he owned properties in Jetty road (and in streets behind) and his name is still on buildings at 35,37,47,56 (two of which are on corners that I think came up in other discussions) – but the presence of his name on them makes me think they were purchased much later (I think it was in the late 60s as he really shifted into property that he started proudly displaying his name).
The closest thing to a link I’ve got, it a fish and chip shop stereotypically run by Greeks (not sure if that’s an Adelaide stereotype, but I know growing up the best fish and chip shops were Greek – and people even used to joke: “Why can’t Greels player Soccer? Every time they get a corner they open a fish and chip shop”). The National Fish Cafe (phone x1378) at 30 Jetty Road (proudly advertised as “next door to the St Vincent Hotel”) was run by a Tom Chaousis from at least 1941 (in some places written Chrirousis – but I think the former is correct) and appears to have somehow been linked to a Con Cotjamanos/Gotjamanos/Goutsoumanis (I can’t help but hear ‘Gotcha man’ when I try to pronounce them) from at least 1937 overlapping with Chaousis’ too. An M Vertwdaches (that sounds more Dutch, or some germanic origin) and Nicolas Chaousis also donated to various greek carities on their behalf from about 1941. There was a weird phrase in one of the ads about ‘…(late Ozone)’ that made no sense (but kind of rang a bell because there was an Ozone Cafe in Port Adelaide that for a while claimed they had the countries best fish and chips (I *think* “Argo’s Hellenic Cafe” is where the Ozone used to be (and appears to be run by a lady who resembles ‘Effie’ from ‘Acropolis Now’)) – but not sure if the Ozone existed in the 30s/40s.
There was also a “National Cafe” (phone C2759) in Rundle St, Adelaide – which sometimes appears as “National Fish Cafe” too…
But I suppose a link like that is very tenuous in a city that boasts a relatively high Greek population (not sure what it would have been in the 40’s but recent census data suggests about 2% of the population…
And as I’ve said before, I’m not sure the identity of Ron is relevant or implies any other link to the case.
milongal: it’s still a bit early to decide whether or not Ronald Francis was important, historically speaking. 😉
Milongal: Con Polites was living in Jetty Rd. Glenelg at the time of his arrest and imprisonment on a black marketeering brief in 1944.
Nick: I’m thinking that Gerry regrets ever mentioning Ron Francis, a Minx in Jetty Road, associated doctors, pharmacists, dentists and businessmen; but most of all, his confounded W&T first edition copy of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam which was or wasn’t.
Milongal: Sorry for the double on Con’s Con job on our US Airforce buddies. That’s around the time his glowing bio claims that he was either working at Woolworths in Rundle St.or else helping the war effort as section head at the Salisbury munitions filling factory. How did the bastard get ahead so quickly after his war-time black market felony conviction. Seems that his partners at the National Cafe also had problems with Mr. Smerdon the architect and I know from previous enquiries re Xavier Herbert, that your other National Cafe in Rundle St. had some problems with Adelaide Council health inspectorate around the same time. Now I’m worried about who he bribed to get his ‘Returned Services’ cabs up and running; could Wally Bridgland have got him out of a spot. I believe that both Jim and Max Beaumont worked for the company, Jim as a cabby and his brother as a local delivery driver which must have had its perks.
Hi Milongal, Re: Ozone Café, Port Adelaide. See “Advertiser” 12-11-40 Page15 “The Mail” 25-3-44 Page 14 and “Advertiser” 19-4-45 Page 7. Seems you got more than F & C at this plaice!
@JS: I’m not certain Con was at the Fish Cafe – but he seems to have been busted selling booze dirt cheap from a cafe in Jetty Road in 44. Can’t find him in the directories though (and I think the buildings that have his name on them today would have been bought as he got more into properties from the 60s). I stumbled across the Smerdon bit too – I was actually looking for Frank Smerdon and found some records of the court case (which in one article lists Tsiaousis and co represented by a Thomson (no p)). When you keep coming up the same surnames apparently unrelated you start to realise why Easter Seaboarders think we’re inbred…
@CliveT: Cheers for that. Can’t really say it surprises me in the Port – neither people saying ‘filthy things’, nor someone punching out their lights for it…. 🙂
THe 19/4/45 one only seems to mention the Greek Relief Appeal – to which both the Ozone and the NAtional Fish Cafe have donated
Just a side note…I think there might also have been an Ozone Cafe near where the pub is at the top of Henley Beach Rd. But….I can find some references to a prominent ‘Ozone Cafe’ in Glenelg in the 1920s . There’s a 1923 article about it which mentions Alf Ide as the propreiter. The S&M for 1923 lists Alf Ide (rfrshmnt rms) at 30 Jetty Road – so sounds like the Ad that mentioned the Ozone was trying to cash in on the fame of a Cafe that had previously stood at the same location (or perhaps it was shortly after changing name).
In 1948. at 30 Jetty Road, Glenelg was National Fish Café and prop. was a T.Chaousis. There was a C. Polites at 14 Henry St, Croydon, Adelaide in late 1940’s.
Something about the Green’s pipe and cig. lighter that just came to mind which is important enough to require clarification. The resevoir tank making up the bottom body section does not have a wick attached to it, as is stated on TS Blogspot’s otherwise excellent job on the suitcase contents. It has a leakproof screw in cap which can be seen in the BS photo, unlike your standard Zippo which has no extra fluid retention top up means. Both use direct fluid empregnation with a wick leading up from the centre gun lint pit to the flint wheel housing, thence on to the windproof firebox. I seem to recall that the storage tank was fairly generous for such a small piece of kit and one might well consider it as being rather handy for concealing any other liquid, without adversely effecting its given purpose.
If someone actually deciphered the Tamam Shud code, who would be the best person or institution to inform?
Depends what it says, but I’d imagine SAPol would be the most interested in the first event….
@CliveT – there’s a GC Polites in Henry street – and I think his dad was George. so I think that was the family home.
Haven’t been able to link Polites to the Fish Cafe, but there was a 1944 news article talking about ‘Con Polites propreiter of a cafe in Jetty Rd’ getting in trouble for some liquor licensing issue. There does appear to have been a Con that turns up occasionally there, but despite his surname seeming to vary a lot, it’s never even remotely ‘Polites’. I find it a little odd that S&M doesn’t seem to have him in Jetty Rd at all (I went back to about ’42, I htink) – but other than his folks house at Henry St he doesn’t seem to come up at all….and while I can imagine Chaousis getting varied (perhaps from Tsiaousis or similar) Polites doesn’t seem like a name that would cop much variety(I think it’s origins are somewhere in Greek mythology).
Pete: Hey Kerrie Leigh what’s your game; can’t anybody play. At least I got posted, and in the right order what’s more; even without cunning alterations to the text. So I won’t be making no ‘Federal’ case out of your mildly rebukeful response, which was of course anticipated. If you don’t mind though, I’ll probably give me old sniper mate from up the crick, a briefing on the main points of our liason; it’s been fifty years but old Oigle still likes to keep abreast of my troubling case, God bless the man. By the way sport, I’ve fumed prints off three year old social security cheques like the ones you used to get and I hear tell that Egyptian grave robbers left readable latents all over Nefertiti’s little bitty titties three thousand years before my humble efforts. Can you believe it?…jeers, js
Milongal: Con’s dad George had moved to Perie from Darwin after ww1 apparently when our Greek immigrants had regained their standing, after having sat out the war. Another Darwin family with the converted name of Savas may have been known to George from up north; then some time after Tom Savas had given his testimony in a ‘suspicious’ death, he left home for Sydney and then turned up at the National fish cafe in Rundle St. Adelaide. He had been a snitch for military intel. at the start of ww2, but what he got up to subsequently, I’m not aware, though it appears that the original family who were coblers/shoemakers, may still be in the north. Perhaps if it is appropriate to your inquiries you might like to keep an eye out for Tom to see if he connected with Con further down the track.
Johnno, enough already …. I’ve bought a copy of the book you probably keep under your straw mat, and it isn’t Wake in Fright.
Hi Milongal, See “News” 17-11-37 Page 3 Re: National Fish Café and “the Mail” 15-04-44 Page 6 Re: Suzanne’s Café.
@JS – Savvas the coffee man? (for a long time there was a big coffee joint called ‘Savas House’ in the city….think it was on Flinders St (or one of the less main streets parallel to Grenfell…). From memory it was just East of Gawler Place or somewhere in that area. despite the name not being Italian, I always assumed an Italian rather than Greek connexion….
Thanks Clive – having a look.
@Clive – Thanks – good find. I was starting to think the 1944 story about Polites was some sort of paranormal synchronicity muddle…
Suzane’s Coffe Lounge was 33 Jetty Rd. Interestingly I previsously noted 35 & 37 have Polite’s signature sign on them (which I assumed he got in the habit of much later)….The numbers on googlemaps are a bit clustered there, so perhaps he already had the sign up….
It looks like by 1946 that was a second-hand dealer (J Morris)…so perhaps I need to find some new straws to clutch.
@JS – for some reason Sam (Sammy) Savas is in my head, but the more I think about it, the more I’m not sure whether he was related to Savas House, or whether he was related to a food wholesale concern on Port Road, Albert Park, opposite Cheltenham Cemetry (not sure of the name, I think it was called ‘Banquet International’ for a while)
Byron: As you’ll be aware, Con Polites operated taxis in the Glenelg district and that the Beaumont lads Jim & Max were in his employ at varying times between the late ‘40s and up to at least 1970. Are you able to tell us anything new about Max and his reported conviction as a teenager for sexual assault; also how is it that he was issued an AIF ww2 army serial number prior to the end of hostilities, when he could not have been any more than 14 or 15 years of age. SX500603 is his Aust. Archives listing but strangely no similar numbers exist. Also, in brother Jim’s case, he seems to have been the only recruit in his intake to be posted to 24th Infantry battalion which seems unusual to me; he had been wounded in Morotai in mid 1945, yet by the time he came back to Adelaide in ‘48, his mother Flora had not seen him for more than four years. I note that a chap named Munro has recently been tied up with historical sexual assaults in Adelaide and I’m wondering whether or not he is related to Munro the Somerton bus driver who took the Beaumont kids to the beach on Australia day 1966. What do you make of Sapol’s recent activities at the HD plant and do you still feel that the SM case could have some tie in with this particular investigation. cheers, js
The only connection between Somerton Man and the Beaumont Children is the City of Adelaide. That and the fact that everyone either knows or is related to everyone else. Now, back to that alleged DNA evidence.
@Bumpkin – same council area? /tic
Bumpkin: I’m almost inclined to agree with you, though I understand that Byron always confessed to having an uneasy fealing about certain coincidental aspects of the two cases. I have often pointed to the somewhat out of place GAB ending to the code which more than a few pundits have connected with a sign off and I don’t need to tell you whose initials fit the bill. As for your DNA quest as a be all, end all solution; all I can say is, maintain the rage and you may get your wish, one which will give you the degree of satisfaction you are seeking.
JS; No rage. The only satisfaction I’m seeking is an ID of SM. Isn’t that the point of this thread?
What means of legal identification could Jessie Harkness, a single woman have used to gain voter enrollment as Jessie Thomson (status unknown) of 90A Moseley St. Glenelg in 1949; none that comes to mind. As we are still somewhat in the dark about her real origins, ubringing and early adult life, we might wonder on the reasonable possibility that it was her maiden surname, or perhaps her name from an earlier marriage. Surely our Jess shouldn’t have had reason to give false witness. On yet another occasion in 1951, after having wed Prosper in Perth shortly beforehand, she again slips up be refering to herself as Mrs. J. E. Thomson which according to legal norms of the day, should properly have been Mrs. P.M. Thomson; pedantic nonsence you could say, but we’re talking about legally binding liability under company law in this particular case. Perhaps this was a ruse by which she and new hubby Prosper might later worm out of joint respobsibilities in respect of their 50000 pound company, Century Motors, which strangely never seems to have prospered, atleast under that entity.
Bumkin: Whether we are still mindful or not, and it does seem that we may have lost the thread to a degree, the one golden thread is to unlock the mystery of the Rubaiyat’s four? line cipher? Things including cause of death, motives/reasons, responsibility and of course your very important need for identification, must be looked at simply as incidental gains if they can be achieved. I would lovevto know why you are still so hot on the ID as the main aim, seemingly to the exclusion of all else. You must understand that if an exhumation is undertaken and it turns out to be totally unproductive, than all the interest will die off and the remains of our thread will unravel.
See my 15NOV15 deciphering of the four lines. I believe that it is the best fit for the message.
JS; The “cipher” will never be solved. The body might be identified. At he very least, a DNA sample could show where he was from and might lead to relatives. 70 years is a long time. A long lost grandfather or great-uncle who went missing during or shortly after the war. There is a word for that. “Closure”.
My 15NOV15 deciphering looks like a solved cipher. DNA and advancement in the science used to unravel it will eventually solve the mystery as to the identification of the Somerton Man.
Rick: I guess you’re on about your 9/11/15 post. It is quite a novel translation and so is it possible for you to give us an update or run down as you see it; particilarly on your ‘poison sample emptied’ of the second short line and ‘sample emptied’ last line. Also can you now give a definitive on great or greater with respect to ‘great(er) murder mystery’.
Ivé never believed there was anything in the nature of foul play involved in the Somerton man’s death.Or suicide.Or secret spy business.
Or that the man had anything to do with the writing on the book.
I believe he was a seaman w ho had previously made the acquaintance of the nurse while she was in Sydney.That she was also an acquaintance of Bloxall.Bloxall gave her the book,she gave it to the seaman.
If he was a seaman,then the best way of tracing him is through missing seamen records.Starting with,Australian Customs and immigration records,and do not think they would be as conclusive as one might expect.
Concentrate on ships that were visiting eastern Australian ports,and preferably ships that had come from,or visited American ports.
@Harry – Customs (SA) recently archived a who9le bunch of shipping records….but not sure whether that makes them accessible or whether they just went into some sort of internal museum (I know they had shipping manifests from Port Lincoln and Port Pirie that they were keen to keep rather than throw out – but not sure if there was stuff from Port Adelaide, and not sure what happened to them). I have a vague idea that if you contact them about historical stuff they can make an archivist available to talk to you (or something – a relative of mine was searching for WW1 soldiers and wanted to see if they had honour boards. From memory they were happy to escort him in Customs House Port Adelaide, but reluctant to let him photograph the honour rolls).
J.S. – Please see my corrected message on 22JAN16. The message read, ” TAMAM SHUD, POISON EMPTIED, MONEY DUE PAID, SAMPLE EMPTIED, A MURDER MYSTERY “. I had edited my previous submission on 09DEC15. It fits perfectly.
When Maxwell got himself into a “bit of trouble” in his early teens he was put under the custody and care of the Children’s Welfare Department. That may be why he tried to enlist? (The file is most likely his rejected application.). There are two unexamined files for him that it would be great to see and I’m surprised that with all of the interest in the case, no one has ever requested them???
Milongai,
I was a Customs Officer at Port Adelaide.Believe me,as I said in my post,Do not rely too much on what is in their records.
That apart,I believe SM arrived from interstate.Which to me indicates one thing.
He came with the knowledge of the nurse and her whereabouts,but on reaching Adelaide was unsure of the best way of getting there.Information at the train station would show a train did go somewhere near so he decided on that option,but then somehow became aware a bus would be more suitable,so chose that.No problem with the tickets,as far as I can see.
How might a seaman become aquainted with a nurse?From memory,when a ship arrived in port,officers would sometimes phone the hospitals inviting nurses to a get to know party aboard.Worked in Adelaide,I can assure you.
Would have worked in Sydney too,or most other ports..Was that checked by police at the time?
Rick: In your decipherment, it appears as being an after action report on a completed assignment in which the victim was taken out according to a pre conceived method set into motion by another party. It also seems that there should be no efforts to make the death appear as a suicide; but to conceal the means nonetheless and lend mystery status to what is going to be classified as murder the investigators. That would appear consistent with leaving the Rubaiyat where it can be retrieved by the paying contractor at a time convenient, presumably after the professional hit man has decamped the scene, there being no need to meet for payment or debrief. Are we to take it that poison was the means used and that there was surplus to be safely disposed of; if so why the need to clarify the point, unless of course an empty bottle or needle was to be found at the crime scene. You sound very sure of your translation which has laid dormant for quite a while, however it seems quite a realistic scenario and should be given more attention, if but to see if it fits with a hypothesis or two that have already surfaced under other auspices.
If we take Rick’s offering to it’s quite logical conclusion, that then puts Ron Francis in the drivers seat good and properly; though he made a mistake by leaving the Rubaiyat, with it’s telltale cipher (non acrostic) in the Minx?, to be found by his non involved brother-in-law. This man thus creates an impasse by remembering the cursed book when the cops ask about it six months down the tracks and reminds Ron of his obligation. So what does the rascal do; he rips the code page out (any debate) but does not notice that the imprint has carried through to the inside cover, then dutifully hands it to Detective Sgt. Leane, who agrees to remain mum about Ron’s request for anonymity…..Not as sexy as bozo’s current affair with the gay ballet koala cuddler by any stretch, but then we don’t need to worry about how our flowery fantasy ends do we?…
Misca: There is absolutely no sequential correlation with Maxwell Beaumont’s AIF service number and others for ww2 inlistment. Some sort of false flag association is evident and this must raise questions as to how and why it happened at federal level. I think it is some sort of intervention that occurred well before the kiddies were taken in ’66 and it is even more suspicious due to that. The family’s given names are all over the place from way back, not discounting the Tom Harkness connection with his tie up with Peg and the Multitude of Grants, Jims and so on. It may be some lodge business for all we know and SM involvement surely cannot be ruled out. Comment?..
I don’t really follow “no sequential correlation …service number and others for ww2 enlistment”???
Lawrence Rumont Minear SX500604
Kenneth Howard Francis SX500605
These were the first two I tried. Both of the above and Maxwell all enlisted at Hamstead SA.
Nick: Something is really strange bearing on Misca’s post of 8:58. The numbers she gives don’t give a reading on Nominal roll number checks, though both names do show up on the Aust. Archive Service Records as does Max. Funny thing is Minear has another AIF number SX 10858 but Francis only shows on Nominal Rolls as being SX 13293. In fact there are other details given that don’t correlate such as the Laurence and Lawrence as Minear’s middle name and a diferent place of inlisting which might be seen as being incidental. How Misca came by the two following numbers 604 abd 605, only she can answer, perhaps there is another search facility that I an not aware of…Really weird, or perhaps just my lack of cohesion.
@Harry: To play devil’s advocate (I’m very reluctant to dismiss the tickets so easily) Why/how would an out-of-towner decide that a trainline to 10km from where he wants to end up is the best option? Surely having found nothing nearby on a map (if he can even find Glenelg on the map) he’d ask the clerk (or someone) for the best option?
Even if the clerk were keen to sell train tickets rather than push people onto buses (given the 2 modes of transport were independent) wouldn’t that conversation suddenly turn ‘just another traveller buying a ticket’ into a character who you would be more likely to remember?
More to the point, wouldn’t you try to get your ticket refunded (causing another memorable incident) before heading for the bus? For the ‘shit, wrong mode of transport’ to work, we sort of have to believe that he not only realised the bus ran from North Tce, but that one was arriving imminently and/or he was in a hurry to get to Glenelg.
Amended detail: So Lawrence & Laurence are both first names for Minear with Hamstead & Adelaide given as places of inlistment as is the situation with Francis though Max only shows Hamstead; also the other lads sign up in ’41 and are nine years older which doesn’t raise flags in the same way as our main man who was only ten at that time. I fear that a masking process may have been installed in the records for some ulterior purpose.
Milongal,People do not always think in the most logical terms.I could give more than one answer to your objections of my sugestions,but we do know that he first bought a rail ticket,and then took a bus to Glenelg,and surely an answer must be that he first considered extending his journey by train,then changed his mind.The how and why can only be guessed at,but one answer is,that being a stranger he arrived at Adelaide rail station without knowledge of how to proceed from there to Glenelg,but at some time after buying the rail ticket,it became known to him that bus would be more suitable.
The time factor is of little consequence,I feel.There was no motive other than to see the nurse,and that might entail no more than a day’s stay.Money problem? Maybe,but as we have no idea of the amount he arrived with,that question is unanswerable.
Obviously I take a subjective view of SM being a seaman,but I have read nothing that rules it out.
My hunch is that Maxwell was maybe 14 at the time and may have looked older. I think he tried to enlist in order to come out of the custody of Child Welfare.
JS – I’m not sure what kind of detailed search you think I may have done but it was very simple. On the main page of the naa website, I simply inserted the two sequential numbers following Maxwell’s enlistment number and up popped those names.
Pete: From memory I think it was the week before Christmas when Sgt. Leane took possession of the suitcase; so I’m thinking that people like Durham and many of the Sapol non essentials were on annual leave, thereby leaving the investigating team without a good fingerprint singles man…Good to see you back in the chair and going after my leads on the spy v spy caper, intertwined amongst the balleteeros and particularly their accompanying ballerinas who one might tend to overlook, at their peril….Hope you didn’t miss uncle Col’s 101st. yesterday, not forgetting the old flyboy’s legacy.
Misca: My simple machinery can’t play like that. Nonetheless you will understand that it is not usual for the same enlistees to have two distinct regular numbers during their wartime service; not counting a previously assigned CMF number. I’ve only seen it in cases where a soldier is discharged, then re-ups later with a new tag. Pete’s new fancy, Big Bob was one such person and I think T.L. Keane may have been another. Also where instances like that occur, the old number comes up on the info entry. With your Francis and Minear it doesn’t seem to show it like it should, hence the worry. You might also have observed on the specific WW 2 NR number site, the three numbers in particular give an unlisted reading which must prove off-puting to those not able to get results by your other method of search.
Breaking news Adelaide Advertiser. DA has applied again to exhume SM. Maybe DA’s team has a had success with the latest DNA testing?
A quick overview of some of the men in this sequence – many appear to have been juvenile delinquents or to have aliases. Dodgy blokes.
An election is looming in SA and any chance of an uplifting depends on the outcome. So long as the weird mob hold power forget it and you can count on that happening, albeit with a smaller majority. I’ll stand with the status quo crowd and leave the poor bastard where he lies, just so’s not to spoil the game.
Misca: OK that’s what is going down, I can see it quite clearly now. Let us take another step to the side and see if older brother Jim also falls into the dodgy category. What’s he doing in Bathurst of all places to inlist; a thousand miles from home in another state and the mainstay of the town’s economy is its gaol. He’s the only one of his mob to be posted to yet another state for induction into the Victorian 24th Infantry battalion which is reputed to have the highest casualty rate in the AIF. He gets himself wounded in the final battle of WW2, but rather than come home at the end of hostilities, he’s bundled off to Japan with the BCOF. Why should this be; it could well be that his service could have included an extension for unserved gaol time, which certainly happened in the US forces and still does apparently. Means nothing with regard to the disappearance of his kiddies of course, but if Jim/Grant had have had some form, that could make for an interesting bit part accessory in our SM job. He comes home in ’48, gets a job driving for Con, with Max in a delivery truck and all interesting chores can come along. Let’s have a bit of a think about it shall we and if nothing is there, at least Jim and Nancy can have a little chuckle.
With today’s technology,would it not be possible to probe down into the body and extract DNA? One objection to exhuming the body,might be that all other avenues of identification have not been pursued.
Never been a huge fan of the exhumation….but it does seem sort of strange that the plot was specifically chosen to preserve the body as best as possible in case there was a need/desire ti exhume in future, wasn it?
Just a couple of little quirks on the Beaumont’s and perhaps we can reflect rather than pursue, then only if something of SM related interest leaps out. Now when young Jim (Grant) signed on for the King’s shilling, he had just recently turned 18. We are not to know when he joined his terminal WW2 unit 2/24 Btn. though it seems unlikely that he was with them at Finchhaven NG during the mid to late rough period of ’43, simply because he was still too young to fall for the flag. He was ok for Moratai in May of ’45 age wise at twenty and he seems to have been wounded there according to his mum Flora, before then sailing off to Japan for eighteen months (an inexplicably long stint for it was for his BCOF married mate T.L. Keane). When he arrives back in Adelaide mid ’47 for discharge, having thus completed four years in uniform, Flora tells the papers that he intends going back to take up his pre war calling as an auto mechanic which is quite interesting if one stops to consider that he could have been qualified in that trade at age 18. His dad William Samuel (known as Grant), a Victorian born (1887) butcher by trade, had also been wounded in his earlier service with infantry in the Great War, then reinlisting at the very outbreak of WW2 at age 52, only serving with a militia unit briefly. More’s the pity that Jim’s own records can’t be obtained for any detail that could allow a clearer picture of his earlier life to develop, as is the case with his seemingly wayward younger brother Max.
John, from memory the tooth paste in SM’s case was of Japanese manufacture.
Byron: Yes it was, Lyon brand and a factory in Hiroshima near Kure which was a prefecture administrated by BCOF. I think it was a new Fluoride variety which I had mentioned quite some time back (more than a few times). Thomas Leonard Keane worked at 130 Australian General Hospital in Kure from ’46 to ’48. Before that he was a wardsman at 115 Hiedleberg and would have attended people like Prosper, Alf Boxall two, Keith Mangnoson and he worked for Matron McMahon who was also his boss at 130 (ex Tatura). Of course Jim Beaumont was with the occupation forces in Japan at the time and likely still getting treatment for his war wounds at some stage…I guess I’m being taken for a ride, but that’s fine, it’s part of the game I guess.
No I was not instrumental in bringing up the subject of the Lion brand Japanese toothpaste; Gordon most likely perked my interest with his glossy photos in the suitcase gallery of his blog and I think that Byron also made mention on one of the Cipher threads some time back. What I attempted to do in my usual rambling way, was to note it’s possible tie in with BCOF personel bringing it back to Australia upun their return. If it had have been, then it might have been one of the two Keans working at 130 hospital at Kure or more likely a simple 34th brigade soldier who may have had it issued as a cheap substitute suitable for the lower class of soldier, such as Jim Beaumont. Did you know that out of the four thousand odd Australian troops sent to Japan from Moratai at war’s end, no less than fifty five percent contracted unspecified strains of venereal disease, hence the reason for many a delayed homecoming following their one year commitment. Whatever be the case, It is most unlikely that Lion brand was sold outside Japan so soon after hostilities and if it had have been manufactured in Hiroshima, it would not have been so popular with those visiting the country, for obvious reasons. Then again perhaps the little innocuous tube contained something other than radio active toothpaste.
John, I think it is highly likely that any BCOF members working anywhere near Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be taking “strontium tablets” that were used as protection against strontium 90 (Sr90 is a major radioactive component of fallout from atomic bombs). These tablets were given to anyone who might be exposed to nuclear fallout or reactor waste. So, SM has toothpaste manufactured in Japan and high levels of (natural, not Sr90) strontium in his hair. Looks interesting to me
Byron: I think the BCOF veterans would still have active associations in most states and they would certainly have recall relating to their service lives in japan which was concentrated around the Hiroshima Profecture. I would think that the 130 hospital people, or perhaps the Garrison RAP units would have most likely been responsible in ensuring that the troops were given necessary protection against radiation sickness so there are possibly documented ROs pertaining to precausionary measures in this regard. Dare we make contact with them on such issues, though cunningly skirting around such medications like tetracyclin and the good old half mil. penicilin jabs which my stated fifty five percent would have been familiar with. The issue of cheap Jap toothpaste might be a good lead in. It really does get down to the question of what the hell was a tube of the stuff doing in the Keane suitcase in 1948 Adelaide of all places.
Regarding Age and discounting the T Keane that is 63 yo — I don’t think you should automatically discount a 63 year old as being “too old” to be considered ..
As beach boy had no ID his “age” at best was a guess – and a guess based on a body that had been dead at least 12 hours (and prob longer) – so he wasn’t looking his best to begin with ..
As far as age, you can’t always judge a book by its cover — when I was in my 20s I looked like I was in high school .. when I was in my 30s most people guessed I was early 20s .. when I was in my 40s most people thought I was 30 – 32, now at 52 most people think I am 40 .. so a 63 yo could still ‘Look” 45ish — especially if they were athletic and took care of themselves ..
I agree that he was possibly (and more probably) a ww2 Vet or 45ish individual involved in either espionage or criminal/underworld activity (unproven but clearly some hanky-panky involved in his demise) and that he possibly was Nurse Godiva’s Sexual Liaison Officer or asexual notes-under-the-table trader (also unproven) but there is also the (slight) possibility that he was a slightly (15 or 20 year) older ww1 Vet in very good health and with very good “age” genes (my mother looked 40 until she was 60 or 65. Her hair didn’t even start to turn gray until she was 70) ..
Brad Hartliep: “Sexual Liaison Officer”, heh – three words that sum up about 45% of Tamam Shud theories. 😉
Some time back, I bumped into a chap who was a travelling companion of an old web site friend of ours on a journey from london to Sydney a few months prior to the outbreak of WW2. A German Jewish man who claimed connections with the Tivoli circuit, though strangely he does not show up on any of the company’s extensive records. Apart from his arrival notation and another when he obtained his naturalization in 1947, nothing else is showing up on my limited trap searches to date. What spiked my interest is that his stated address is just a couple of streets down from RNSH St. Leonards where nurse Harkness had been working not so long before. As a matter of mere coincidence, we might note that SM’s but ticket was for St. Leonards too, right by the nurse’s later 1948 Moseley St. Residence, although we are mindful that his last journey was to the same name suburb in Adelaide. By the way this chap was of 1905 vintage so I hope for Brad’s sake, his recent extended age theory isn’t thrown out of kilter…..I’m 70 and with no grey hair just like your mum Brad; only difference being, I look every minute of it!..
Actually it was Arno’s mate that lived closeby RNSH when naturalised, but neither of their files are on line and all we can say about Felix is that he was born at Breslau in 1903 so we can’t really identify his ethnicity. Arno was almost certainly a German Jew and my feeling is that he must have married by the mid forties, at which time his former house mate moved from their Hawthorn address and resettled as a batchelor in Sydney. If they had been contracted to J.C. Williamson’s entertainment group or its Tivoli Circuit subsidiary, than nothing at all is showing, so perhaps their claims to that effect upon arrival in Australia, were either not fulfilled, or a ruse to enable favorable reception….Just as an aside; whilst checking out the two friends, I just happened to come across Nick’s mate Ted Slavinski living in Wylde Street, Potts Point which is where George Marshall was staying at the time of his unexpected death.
Having made a terrible error of miscounted newsprint line judgement, I must sincerely and tearfully apologise to all whomsoever I may have let down. The good news is that my boys Arno and Felix did not split up at all, but merely shifted themselves from Hawthorn to a commercial premises in Sth. Melbourne. They are nonetheless still listed as missing and unaccounted for from about 1947 however, we should be well conditioned to such incidental set backs by now and they’ll likely turn up in the Adelaide area within a year or so…Sorry for the stuff-up once again and trust that you’ll find it in your sporting hearts to forgive in time.
Looks like we can safely say farewell to Friend Felix who seems to have been neatly tucked away in Sydney by ’79 as a lone pensioner. The good news is that his dance partner Arno Franz, whilst still missing and now presumed dead is still in with a show. A check of his birth region reveals a nice red, white and blue coat of arms, which thankfully is consistent with SM’s Tootal tie coloration (as are a thousand & one other Bergs).
Nick: Wikipedia has updated it’s “Tamam Shud case” page with information regarding Derek Abbott’s DNA claims. It is sourced to an article on newscientist.com. Unfortunately, it is behind a pay wall. Would you look into this information for us? Thank you.
Bumpkin: very interesting, thanks! I’ll see what I can dredge up about this and the H4A1A1A haplogroup etc, and will post here as soon as I can. 🙂
@ Nick and Bumpkin: I may be repeating my reply to your site — I don”t understand why so many people rely on Wikipedia’s nonsense. There is no nonsense in Derek Abbott’s DNA claims. He came through for us, in regard to my query as to would there be enough of meltdown man’s RNA to give us a clue to the dead man’s family name.
So, please investigate the RNA sampling which Nick and several long time ‘looker-uppers’ reviewed my query. I was not hoping to get the same results when it came to sampling for DNA. Please forward to Mr. Abbott my thanks for his voluntary DNA sampling. Not just my eyes reviewing the latest (DNA) data. One of my sons / grandchildren has been following Nick’s presentations for several months now. We’ll see….how things go.
Thanks again Nick (and Mr Abbott) for posting the DNA discussion. !
bd
DANETTA’s first three letters are an anagram of DNA. OMG!
Yuri: …and? 😉
Yuri: First rule for acrostic word ciphers is to reverse and segmentise eg. DANETTA would become ATTEN AD; then we might initially be left with ‘bottoms up’ ‘down the hatch’ or ‘last drinks’ in Dutch slang, from the Latin Ad Fundum. This may in turn also represent the ‘Ace of Spades’ death card, or else the trump card upon which a Royal duty had to be paid and forging of same was a death sentence. AD surely represents Adelaide, although, if we would have our cake and eat it too, ATTEN could stand for the number eighteen in Danish, or else to ‘Pay Heed’ in several other languages. I have no idea what 18 might refer to, but ATTEN followed by AD could therefore be Tibor Kaldor’s warning, to his old Tatura minder Allan Dalziel or its an accusory notice to the world of his treachery…..Of course all this will be nothing more than a load of cobblers if we revert back to the original Somerton Man mystery issues, so where does it leave most of us?…Still in the dark it would seem!…
How could I have forgotten. ATTEN or eighteen (3 x 3) equals 666; the Name of the Beast from the Book of Revelations, plus AD for that old Bible basher, Allan (the zealot) Dalziel.
Of course ATTEN is eighteen which derives from 666 and the so called name of the beast in the book of revelations. AD is still Allan Dalziel the bible bashing commie zealot.
ATTEN being eighteen in Nordic and 666 representing the so called Name of the Beast in the biblical Book of Revelations, along with AD for Allan Dalziel the zealot equals DANETTA.
I have been a touch intrigued by ‘Danetta’ (although not the extrapolation* beyond getting the name out in the first place using character positions).
Still, I find it hard to think of it as anything but coincidence, for several reasons:
1) There doesn’t seem a concrete connection between the name and Kaldor “It’s a Jewish name” doesn’t really cut it for me,
2) ‘Dear Sir’ bothers me. If the paragraph length dictates the length of the word we get, then we need to start at the first letter of that paragraph, not the salutation.
3) The fact that the pattern (xth letter, xth line) (seems to) stop after Danetta bothers me. Either the cipher should reset to first of first, second of second within the paragaraph…(which #2 above seems to challenge) or continue from 8th char (as it’s line 8). Neither of which seem to yield anything sensible.
4) just because we can make sense of Danetta, doesn’t actually mean much. Even if there is a code hidden within that note (and I agree there seems to be some interesting, if clumsy, phrases (‘Dear Sir’ doesn’t seem to be a ‘normal’ beginning for such a letter – especially when you presumably expect to be found by the maid, although the rest of the letter appears aimed at the coroner or investiagtor, so perhaps it’s reasonable) – but I don’t think they in themselves point to anything).
As I started, the original extraction of ‘Danetta’ is mildly intriguing, but I would have been far more impressed if we could extract a name with a concrete connection to Kaldor – and I’m far from convinced we had.
It’s also worth noting that the struck out line is almost an anagram of milongal, and if we borrow an N from line 3, an L from line 4, and a G from line 5…. (just making a point, not being even remotely serious beyond that)
*For mine, and perhaps I misunderstand some of the posts, a lot of the extrapolation is simply a tool regurgitating the original extraction and perhaps people misunderstanding the output of the tool, and the further ideas of acrostics seem to randomly scan to make Danetta, and then try to explain the pattern as rational (the ultimate confirmation bias). Ironically, the picture of the Shakespeare ‘acrostic’ is from a site that challenges it’s legitimacy (for pretty well that reason – that arbitrary letter selection from a text allows you to draw a picture that seems to fit whatever you’re trying to say) – if you’re not interested in looking it up yourself, the author is challenging people who think that acrostic reveals ‘Francisci Baconi’ by showing that he can find his own name in there using similar techniques).
@JS – perhaps the year 666AD?
Or how about (Sir) Alexander Downer, federal member for Renmark (Angas) 1949 and future Minister of Immigration. Old Adelaide aristocratic bloodlines eg. father SA premier, son deputy PM, both UK Ambassadors &c. Spent four years as POW (Burma Railway), possible PTSD agro against Japs and nazis…
Milongal .. the name Danetta also appears in the code.
Petebowes: DANETP = DANETTA looks a bit thin to me.
1st line ~ D
2nd line ~ A
3rd line ~ N, E
5th line ~ T,T A.
1st line ~ B, O
3rd line ~ L, O, C
4th line ~ S.
Clever …
I think that was my point. If we just pick random letters we can find almost anything – even if we insist they have to be in order (or bits of them have to be in order). The link on GC’s blog to the acrostic at twinkletoesengineering is an interesting read.
The guy shows how although Francisci Baconi does indeed appear in the text pictured, he found an equally credible ‘Donald E Fulton’ (his own name) in the same document. He quite obviously concludes that he must’ve written much of Shakespeare’s works in a previous life.
If you can come up with a good formula for why those letters on those lines (and nothing on 4) then I’m all ears, but until then it’s all a happy coincidence for me.
We can find Tim and Pat on line 3 (both of whom I work with), then another guy at my work BILL appears if we work upwards, right to left from ‘B’ in line 5, I,L in 4 and L in 2. If we really confuse the order I can find some STEPAN in there too. Oh look, there’s QANTAS too…
Mind you, staring at those letters again, I seriously notice that there’s a lot of variety in the letters (even more than I used to think). Take a clip of each ‘A’ and tell me how many of them look even close to the same?
First Row – one A leans right with curved horizontal, not overhanging, the other leans left with slightlty rounded sides and a curved horizontal (in the opposite direction).
2nd Row: Very wide, very straight/triangular A, with straight overhaning horizontal
3rd row: Narrower, curved (particlularly on right) A with overhang to the right, and right side much lower than left
4th line – (1) right leaning, Triangular, narrow with careless horizontal not meeting left and overhanging right. (2) Curved (esp LHS) with curved horizontal & slight overhang to right, (3) LH straight, RH curved (maybe written after Q and had to fill gap, or something) with straight horizontal overhanging a long way
5th line – (1) Crude, childish, wide with not quite straight sides. Long straight crossbar overhanging both sides (and leaning TL to BR). (2) very narrow, heavy right lean, reasonably straight with flourished horizontal overhaning both sides slanted (BL to TR) (so much so the letter before could be C rather than G)
Granted the last one may be part of a signature, because the R/B looks flourished too.
To me there appears either a deliberate variation in characters (maybe an attempt at a subtle code) or many different hands wrote the letters on the page. Or (maybe clutching at straws) the letters were written in difficult circumstance – on board a moving vehicle, perhaps, or maybe in a situation where the writer struggled to find consistent surface to lean on and was contorting the paper in different directions at different times….
All I needed was another E and I had Otis Pierce / Pearce.
According to our creator’s Int. s.o.p regs., letters don’t have to be in any particuar order, athough laid to a set format known to DANETTA briefed operatives. That means that every word ever formulated apart from those with the letters f-h-j-k-u-v-y-z is a goer; so considering that most of the above are low usage anyway, it might apply to at least 90 percent of words in my Funk ‘n’ Wagnell’s big dictionary. NB: h-k-v are still in with a show possibly.
S.O.P’s stipulate that there is no rule against using the same letter again; so Otis would work, though at 36 in 48, it is all that would in his case, seeing’s that he was also still with us for a good spell afterwards.
.. then why the double T on line 5 ?
In S.O.P. tradecraft culture, the doubles usually only have a single value, The word ‘null’ being used accordingly to cancel value for the extra ‘T’. I have been told by an informed source under cover of anonymity, that perhaps this particular double ‘T’ in line 5 (fife) following close on a single will have the effect of nullifying both, though this obviously can’t be officially varified.
john sanders: I’ve never heard underpants called “cover of anonymity” before, but you learn something every day, I guess. 😉
Nick: Perhaps you missed the briefs.
Flash: I’m not the acrimonous type, especially when it comes to trivial pursuits with a topical fun element attached to them; so don’t feel too worried being a prick if that is your wont. O.K. so we now understand that Danetta is an acrostic word that indirectly derives its meaning from the three sources you have very cleverly identified. Firstly secreted in minute form beneath certain letters of SM’s so called cipher; it’s like emplanting within Jestyn’s handwritten stanza 70 of the Australasian Publishing Co’s English/Malay Rubaiyat of Alf Boxall. Then we have it clandestinely coded into a certain passage of Tibor Kaldor’s last will & testiment (written under duress). This last conclusive translation said to derive from a random electronic computation spat out and excitedly repeated to the third power. Tell me Flash, have I gotten it down pat now?….
I was looking at the railway lines to Somerton and then at the codes and I had a guess: of the last line: TTMTSAMSTG (AB) Train To Melbourne To Somerton (am = morning) Station Turntable. G could be Glenelg (where Somerton Beach is located). wikipedia says the train didn’t go from Melbourne into Somerton but that there was a Station Turntable (where they turn the passenger cars in the opposite direction).
He was just writing down his travel options.
TBIMPANETP
Take Bus into Melbourne Pickup A North East Tramway (Tramaway) Pass.
Patricia: this is a route to the truth that many have attempted, but rarely with satisfactory results. Back then, there was a train to Henley Beach, sure, but not to Somerton or Glenelg, only buses.
Yes, I wrote that in my Post, the train didn’t go into Somerton. I will keep working on the rest of the abbreviations.
Patricia Nielsen: to be honest, the odd thing about the Somerton Man’s Rubaiyat Code is that it fits people’s attempts to backronymify it so badly. Even Barry Traish’s poetic attempt – http://ciphermysteries.com/2015/09/12/barry-traishs-backronymic-poem if you haven’t seen it before – will probably turn out to be a masterpiece of flexibility rather than of historical reconstruction.
Rather, it might well be that if we are looking at acrostic directions, then they are directions not to Glenelg or Somerton Beach, but instead to somewhere else, possibly Melbourne (as your attempt indeed starts). The notion that the directions ‘can only be’ to Glenelg or to Somerton Beach might well be more of a red herring than a fish in a barrel. Just something to think about! 😉
Indeed, indeed, Repentance oft before
I swore – but was I sober when I swore ?
And then and then came Spring, and Rose-in-hand
My thread-bare Penitence apieces tore.
‘Then’ Char 1 = ‘T’
‘Came’ Char 2 = ‘A’
‘Hand’ Char 3 = ‘N’
‘Indeed’ char 4 = ‘E’ (sober?)
‘Penitence’ Char 5 = ‘T’
‘Thread’ Char 6 = ‘D’
‘Repentance’ Char 7 = ‘A’
D = Thread
A = repentance
N = hand
E = indeed
T = Penitence
T = Then
A = Came
Thread repentance hand, indeed penitence then came.
%s/indeed/sober/
also last letters = endeded
/tic
FWIW, letter frequency order in Kaldor’s letters:
E, O, T, I, S, A,N,R, L, H, D,U,Y,F,C,M….
This isn’t too far off Etaion Shrdlu (and importantly ‘D’ is about where we’d expect). Perhaps for an acrostic we might still expect a reasonably English letter distribution.
The first letter frequency ordering is
T,A,I,S,F,O,W,C,L,P,M
Which (save for ‘F’ above) is pretty close to
T,A,O,I,S,W,C,B,P,H,F
This, I think, is more problematic for acrostic proponents – because we’d expect that to start to skew if we’re deliberately choosing words with a particular first letter.
It’s worth noting (as I think I’ve mentioned before) that E,T,A,N are in the top 6 most common letters, and that they are also in the top 10 ‘second letters’ of a word, and E, A, N are in the top 5 ‘3rd letter’ – so the chances of manipulating any text into something with lots of E,T,A,N (eg Danetta) starts to seem quite probable….
For completeness (read: ‘the hell of it’) I also ran verse 70 (a much smaller set, admittedly):
E, N,A,R,D,I,T,O,S,H
and for first letters:
I,S,A,T,W,B,R
Results like this (ie drifitng away from ETAION SHRDLU) are (probably) expected in a poem as opposed to prose – especially when there’s an effort to rhyme (eg we’ve guaranteed ‘ORE’ on 3/4 of the lines) – and it is a teeny sample.
Make of it what you will….
NB: I could make up a whole bunch of patterns in the word and/or char ordering of my efforts above if I had to. I guess I was more trying to demonstrate some confirmation bias – when you think there’s an answer you can make the question fit.
NB2 (ignoring the observation that ETAN are very common letters throughout a word): I’d sort of be more impressed with ANNETTA than DANETTA (because it neatly uses a whole paragraph). Of course, then you have to wonder why start at second letter, not first. ….
Great news for our ultra diligent Flash and his shadow over there. Tibor’s third referee Liz Stainforth and her mum arrived home from london aboard Orcades on 1/9/57 which they’ll be pleased to hear, I’m sure. There’s plenty more on that whole family, though others are much better at collecting and collating such potentially game changing news than we are; so they can follow up, if not too busy. We’ll stand by and pick up the threads if and when the need arrises.
Arise and shine sure doesn’t rhyme. We make mistakes from time to time.
The news article appears to have her in Melbourne in 1948 (holidaying). What strikes me is the similarity in handwriting between all 3 referees (Tibor’s name is identical each time – although perhaps he wrote that bit, because there’s definite differences between ‘Victoria’ each time).
She sounds to me like a translator more than anything else.
Regarding the first UN conference in Westminster Hall, there’s actually footage on youtube (user British Pathe’) and one of the videos (the 10 minute one) shows clear footage of the delegation from the USSR (from about 0:50 to 1:50), and Australia about 4 minutes in…
Of course, that’s not necessarily the full entourage from either (I assume this is the conference that supposedly both Lizzy and Paul Fedosimoff were coincidentally at – but I got nothink on that until 1957 when the UN formed the IAEA….looking for a delegate list just in case)
Found a delegate list for the second part (can’t find info on first part yet) but doesn’t seem to have either of them on it (only name that stands out is ‘Nicolai Novikov’ – but that’s hardly a surprise)
Oh, and the Ukraine has a Litvinenko in its delegation – obviously not the one we’re familiar with, but it caught my eye nonetheless….
Beg’n your parden missus Arden, there’s a gold fish in the garden….MNO goldfish….SAR….OSIC. That’s just a simple sample of standard British WW2 uncrackable coded garble, as outlined in the article on BBC’s Liz Stainforth who worked for Auntie in wartime intel. As a word of caution; she should never be confused with Elizabeth Bethune Stainforth, the non clandestine Melbourne schoolteacher, who signed off as having known Tibor Kaldor, most probably ‘under extreme duress’.
Apropos the additional lady of interest to our GCHQ team, named Elizabeth Stanton; all that we’ve come up with is an old American female rights activist by the name, who seems to have had affiliations with a similar Melbourne women’s temperance movement during the early suffragette years.
There’s a Betty Stainforth (no middle name) referenced in 1930 on trove :
Miss Betty Stainforth, • whose an
cestry runs back through generations
in Cranbourne, and who is a scholar
ship holder in the Melbourne High
School, has been spending the vaca
tion with her aunt, Mrs. Bethune.
Obviously not the same one of immediate UK pedigree, but an interesting coincidence nonetheless
Likewise cutting to the chase Flash, I don’t know and don’t much care whether or not your Bolshie with the titanium chompers was sharing Miss Stainforth’s kemdex dish at the big bash of ’46, though one thing you fellas can take for rote, it weren’t no publik school marm, name of Elizabeth Bethune Stainsforth. Your Beeb spook’s name from memory was surely one Elizabeth Helen Stainforth aka Stanton? and she came into Australia, like the plumber, through the tradesmen’s entrance in 1951. You seem to have been a bit untidy with this job mate, though I’ll grant to having made the odd slight stuff up, not to the same degree mind, with names obtained from unreliable sources. All I can offer by way of advice my man, is to bare up, stay away from that cheap Mount Gaye swill and be sure keep your eager beaver gopher assistant of your’n on a short leash in future. You’ll see good times again if you can own to certain personal limitations and in future don’t be tempted by tired old issues that can only lead to a bad case of distraction.
Here we go then. We are hereby informed and on line, that micro writing was maybe just a bluff, mere padding to shield and prevent the all enveloping key to Danetta – Danetta – Denetta from being let loose on an unwarey innocent bunch of malleable truth seekers. Yep that sounds like we can now file that meddlesome line, for you can almost bet there’ll likely be no further related correspondence entered into. Anyhow a most welcome, magnanamous and cunningly crafted admission of deception, not to mention a neat little diversive ploy from the outset.
John Sanders: microwriting is a bust, not a bluff. 🙁
As I’ve always maintained, when something useful is derived from the ‘microwriting’ (well, I guess ‘SEGA’ was useful) on artefacts directly relating to the case then I’ll listen, but until then, I maintain my skepticism (and certainly think ‘definitively proved’ is a pretty big claim). If we can’t read this in 2018, how were the spies of the 40s supposed to?
Much as I’m amused (maybe even impressed) at GC’s ability to find more numbering patterns in the Danetta in V70, I maintain that it’s a coincidence, and I could have equally shown Danetta in other random text. For what it’s worth, I went through the verse and wrote down every word that started with a letter in DANETTA. Then I repeated for every second letter, third etc…Then iot was a case of arranging them to look useful. I very nearly got a ‘nice’ pattern out of it, that would have used D as the 4th letter of hand and then a 123567 pattern (fancy that take the middle letter out for the start), but then I realised theat 6,7 (TA) both came from the same word (repenTAnce), and I thought that wasn’t very neat, so instead I pretended that we could make a vaguely cromulent sentence out of the words. For this sequence I happened to pick (which is not the only one I could have used to make DANETTA given the bounds that we use the xth letter of a word) to then line up so neatly with another numerical sequence seems a stretch – and to me is absolute Confirmation Bias (And we can argue over the meaning, but ultimately having found a word we like to think is significant, we tried to prove the hypothesis at all costs – and considering any pattern we find (however obscure) as absolute conclusive proof of our hypothesis). If we changed ‘indeed’ for ‘sober’ (it’s the ‘e’ at position 4 that’s important) then we have to somehow link sober back to the number 2 (or explain the numbering differently again).
I do enjoy speculation about hidden codes – and I find the original ‘DANETTA’ as mildly impressive – but most of the speculation beyond that seems to me to clutch at straws.
I realise I probably come across as very negative in general (and perhaps suffer some opposite variation of confirmation where I assume everything is wrong), but for mine while there’s a lot of weird stuff in this case I think too much gets read into reasonably mundane detail – and even directly linking SM to the code page is problematic (the Tamam Shud links to the trousers, which (apparently) links to the Jetty Rd Rubaiyat (the government analyst said the paper is consistent – but having worked in public service I can imagine an analyst finding the results they think they’re expected to find – the difference in shapes and descriptions of the slip vs the hole in the rubaiyat page bother me). But so even if at that point we think that the Rubaiyat at some stage was in SM’s possession, the ‘code’ still isn’t necessarily his (or even related to him). Aside from the fact that it could have happened while the book was in Francis’ possession, it could also have happened before or after the slip was torn out, and could mean absolutely nothing at all….
At the risk of sounding like a ‘fence-sitter’ I agree with GC that a lot of the personal barbs that fly when some of us disagree on theories (I’ve probably been guilty of that in the past too) aren’t really helpful – and just because some of us subscribe to a theory and others don’t doesn’t actually make either of us necessarily right. So while I remain unconvinced on Microcode, Fedosimov or Danetta (and even Kaldor’s link to the case, I guess) I do recognise there’s a lot of effort being put in by Gordon (and Clive?) and others along that path, and that just because I’m unconvinced doesn’t mean their research won’t end up reaching some solid conclusion…
TL;DR: Not convinced on micocode, Danetta, or even the significance of the chicken scratchings in the Rubaiyat
Now that you seem to be with the program Flash my old mate; here we have yet another E. Stainforth arriving home aboard Himalaya on 5/2/50. This one gives the very same address as Tibor Kaldor’s referee, so one might well contend that she was Elizabeth Bethune, the teacher, as opposed to Elizabeth Helen ‘our girl from Auntie’ (6/2/51) What we need to know now is, the identities of all those other similarly named Stainforth women who arrived in 1951, as refered to in your timely related thread add-on. This should then enable us to put the matter finally to rest and avoid further embarrassment for those caught out in the farce…..PS. George Stainforth RAF, unrelated to any of our girls, was part of the Schneider cup winning team circa.1930 and first man to top 400 mph, in his Supermarine float plane.
Anyone with a little free time on their hands could try, as a substitute for Tibor’s reluctant suicide note or the Rubaiyat 1st edition verse 70 passage, other well known control sets like: The quick brown fox…., Four score and twenty…. Yea though I walk through… It’s time for every good man to come….&c.. My personal opinion is that, ‘Indeed, Indeed’ would cancel out as a null, despite the Afio (sic) rules for S.O.P.
I’ve just been perusing a couple of death certificates from someone’s friend in Austria, relating to a couple of most unfortunate Hungarian Jews who having survived the tragic Mauthausen death march, succumbed from illness whilst in the safe hands of their liberators after the nazi capitulation ln late may ’45. The gents in question both happened to share names in common with a fellow Jew and countryman, Tibor Kaldor who is reported to have died by his own hand in Adelaide a few years later. From what we can tell, none of the threesome had anything in common apart from their like names, general background including religion and presumed age group. We might also conclude reasonably that none were likely to have had anything to do with the as yet unresolved Somerton Beach mystery death. Apart from proving to be still quite emotionally upsetting to some charged with reporting on the sad unrelated events, seventy odd years on.
@JS – It’s sort of a fun exercise….
The first verse of “The Lord’s my shepherd” didn’t work very well (at least not without using Leadeth twice). That is, until I changed “I’ll” to “I shall” at the astersisks:
” The Lord is my Shepherd, I’ll** not want; He makes me down to lie.
In pastures green; He leadeth me. The quiet waters by”.
E = Pastures (7th)
T = Leadeth (6th)
N = Green (5th)
D = Lord (4th)
T = The/To (1st)
A = Want/Makes/Waters (2nd)
A = Shall (3rd)
(Lord Shall Green Pastures Leadeth The Waters)
I think there’s a certain neatness starting on Lord, FWIW.
Then I thought about Banjo Paterson’s ‘Geebung Polo Club’. It’s a long poem, and I figured using the entire thing would be a smidgen unfair, and comparing the first 4 lines they were still a fair bit longer than our old verse 70. So I took 2 lines and played with them:
“It was somewhere up the country, in a land of rock and scrub,
That they formed an institution called the Geebung Polo Club.”
E = Somewhere (7th)
N = Geebung (6th)
T = Country (5th)
D = Land (4th)
A = That (3rd)
A = Called (2nd)
T = They (1st)
Land Called Geebung Somewhere Country They That
Interestingly, I’ve found it difficult to manage this with any other name the same length as Danetta (which I think is largely because E,T,A are so common (and N not far behind). Couple that with almost every text having an ‘And’ somewhere (which guarantees your ‘D’) and it becomes quite simple).
Milongal: A defining excercise Indeed, Indeed; and attended with a level of predictabily not unanticipated I’d deign to add… Well executed indeed, though I doubt that your adroitness is addressed with a like degree of enthusiam by the ‘Cuff & Collar team’.
Danetta was picked up from an an acrostic search input based on part of Tibor’s suicide note from memory. It was Milongal who reported co-incidental tie-in with the Rubaiyat code and verse 70 which was actually lauded by both our
confused belligerant partners. Now it seems one of them want’s to shoot the messenger and I dare say the Co. will follow his leader in God’s good time.
@JS the ‘Danetta’ in Tibor’s letter still intrigues me – even as a coincidence, because (unlike our games with other texts) there is a clear pattern to how it exists there (but I still have some reservations about the use of ‘D’ in ‘Dear Sir’ as the beginning – it makes some of the neatness go away IMHO).
I originally chose v70 to demonstrate how easy it might be to ‘find’ what you’re looking for anywhere you choose to look (and similarly the other texts).
For me ‘Danetta’ deliberately being in v70 is problematic on many levels (not least that the particular extraction I chose was a touch arbitrary and I could equally have chosen some different words in some cases which would affect any word orderings beyond that – especially when that verse can (and has) been written many different ways with and without dashes, and a-pieces vs apieces etc ). Then you sort of need to consider the author and the context – why would Fitzgerald hide a Jewish name in his translation? How is it that it seems unknown by anyone (except apparently Jestyn and/or Alf)? If others see some connection in it all, then good luck to them, but I tend to think it’s just a distraction….
But as with all things SM, who knows?
I wonder if dastardly Danetta also works with the Bahasa/Malay v70 which was included in the Boxall 1st edition; also whether there was a corresponding verse in any of the other four editions that carried the message, not withstanding that those much longer editions were less precise in their single word endings…Tamam
Nick: At the risk of ad nauseam, we may just have cause to re-visit SM’s undergarments; particularly those catagorised as being ‘Jockey’ briefs, or at least a pair of that type. We might take it as likely that he had indeed been wearing such briefs and not boxers when found. We are further led to believe that the Keane suitcase contained at least one pair of the same or similar type. Modern briefs were first marketed by Lee of USA in 1934, but were not labeled with the iconic brand label ‘Jockey’ until 1947; so it’s unlikely that police would know to use the name unless they sighted an identifying label. It might also be queried whether a rough and tough land like Australia would have carried supplies of such dandy garments as early as 1948….While doing some related backtracking, I also looked once more at the Kean tie which had always worried me somehow. Why in hell would someone write his name on the outward facing side of his tie which could deem it to be at least partly visible when worn?….beats me!..
Blooper blooper, not Lee but Cooper; the moniker behind Jockey briefs, y’can betcha left dangler on it, no shit.
A couple of pairs of jocks wouldn’t go astray on some of those Voynich babes …
I don’t want to hijack Nick’s site for a cross site argument but….
I neither proved nor disproved anything – and never claimed to. Using the same method I highlighted ‘Danetta’ in (a specific translation of) v70 from the Rubaiyat, Psalm 23 (as written for music to fit Short Meter (86.86) or more specifically the tune Crimond) and the first two lines of Banjo Paterson’s ‘Geebung Polo Club’.
In each case all of them were found using an equivalent method. Any further inferences about word numberings are not mine (and I don’t entirely agree with – not least because how the texts are laid out makes a difference (eg, Psalm 23 would normally be written as 4 lines, not 2).
While I realise people see me as negative, I prefer thinking of it as a reluctance to get excited about new ideas without strong evidence – which in my opinion (and it is only my opinion) is not present here.
IMO the only ‘Danetta’ to even consider getting excited about is from the first 7 lines of Tibor’s letter (1st letter, 1st line, 2nd letter 2nd line etc) – which I think is what started this whole trail – but even that one has me skeptical because of the lack of anything else meaningful in the remainder of the text, and the cumbersome feel of taking ‘D’ from the salutation rather than working it into a 7 line paragraph. So for me the jury is out on that one a little, but I’ve already second-guessed their verdict.
I can see the effort that goes into linking ‘Danetta’ into the SM case, and the even greater effort to uncover and decipher microcode, but I struggle to see them as anything more than a distraction – and until some sense can be made of the micro code or of any other patterns or codes (beyond a single name), then my skepticism continues (and I think skepticism and negativity are not necessarily the same thing).
Far be it for me to discourage others from chasing whatever leads they see fit – but without meaning any offence, I think my time is better spent investigating other avenues. And if that leaves me with egg on my face at the end of it, so be it.
NB: Negativity can be healthy. Disbelieving something can inspire others to find irrefutable proof – indeed, questioning results (whether others’ or your own) may disprove theories, or it may cause one to find stronger evidence.
It is most likely that back in ’48 that men’s briefs were not a common item of apparel, in fact the Bonds company who later produced them under license in Australia, were still plugging their standard boxer shorts well into the 50’s. So where did SM get his new hi tech high riders from?, my guess would be from a US Army PX in occupied Europe or Japan, where they might easilly have been purchased, and where he had spent time either serving or more likely with an USO entertainment company ie. Tivoli Circuit. The long and short of it is that our stay at home detectives Leane, Brown & Co. were not likely to have known the difference between SM’s Jockey Briefs and a pair of whores drawers. Incidently the same might be said of a new fangled gold Tudor Oyster timepiece which became available only in ’47 and could be purchased from the US PX in Yokahama tax free most likely.
Milongal: I could see that put down coming a mile off, but no need to let up on your good work. I’d suggest applying your acrostic method on the following refrain from an old ‘Jock’ music hall song….” A gordon fae me, a gordon fae me; if yir nae a gordon; yir’n nae use tae me”. PS: If you need an extra ‘t’ for Danetta, you can take it from the ‘nae’ which of course converts to ‘not’ in realspeak!…..
We might assume with some confidence that SM owned the Jockey briefs in the Kean suitcase based on a pair of the same type that he was apparently wearing, which were uncommon in Australia at the time. We might also assume that the Marko trousers were his, based on similar size to those worn by him when found; this supported by a missing fly button on the Marco duds and a spare brown one matching, found amongst the other assorted gear. There was nothing else listed that might suggest connection shorter Tibor, apart from the slippers, and as noted by Flash’s man, our suicidee was in his pyjamas when found deceased. I assume that this analysis will allow for further related assumptions to be made which will serve no purpose whatsoever without primary evidence to support it.
Milongal: I don’t often agree with our honorable moderator but, in him bullishly saying that micro writing is a a bust, then I’m first bull at the gate. Of course there’s clever folk that can do a fair job of puting Magna Carta an sich on the back of an ungummed penny black; though not in code, because that’s not the point. Yes we can go on about MI6, and Afio (note the long S) SOPs until the cows come home, but in reality people using that sort of reteric are only deluding themselves at the end of the day. Playing up their past expertise in the Int. field is usually a total sham because they know they can get awày with it. Most happy when they can induct believers and only too ready to drop platitudes when grooming gullible victims is the game they love to play. I’ve great respect for most people of Aboriginal and Pacific Islander background but I’ve yet to come across any that would know of, or be remotely concerned about pics of our deceased SM. As far as that goes charlatans and fakes will go to any lengths to convince others of their concern for fair play and hail fellow well met humility which of course is just part of the con. Don’t let it get to you old man; it don’t mean nuthin.
@JS – I don’t want to buy too much into some of that (I think I have in the past if we search back through this site), but regarding the Indigenous people while I haven’t met any who have been overly concerned about images of deceased persons, my understanding is that the culture varies greatly by region and tribe, and that for some people it can be inappropriate. I *thought* it was more seeing their own people who have passed on (and that’s not necessarily pictures of actual dead bodies, but even pictures of their own people before they died, AFAIK). Certainly the ABC used to precede certain documentaries with a similar disclaimer….
A little bit of googling reveals:
http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/mourning-an-aboriginal-death
(I found the substory about ‘Tuesday’ particularly interesting)
A search on Trove revealed the following advertisements for jockey briefs:
Whyalla News 18th April 1947 page 6
“Men’s cotton jockey briefs …. ideal for all sports and every day wear …. only 3/8 pair, coupon free”
The Henty Observer and Culcairn Shire Register 3rd September 1948 page 2.
“Cotton interlock jockey briefs 3/2 pair.”
Barrier Miner (Broken Hill) 16th December 1947 page 3
“Silk and cotton briefs …. new shipment of men’s jockey briefs …”
Prior to 1948 jockey briefs were advertised in only four towns.
Mackay, Queensland November 1947
Whyalla, South Australia April 1947
Lithgow, NSW October 1946
Broken Hill, NSW December 1947
No mention in the newspapers of the cities. Very strange. I note that Broken Hill and Lithgow were mining towns; base metals and coal respectively. Whyalla was a mining and agricultural products shipping port, and Mackay was a port that dealt with agricultural and mining products as well as general cargo. I note that Whyalla could be thought of as a sister town to Port Pirie in 1948, and Port Pirie and Broken Hill have been mentioned many times in the past in relation to SM. And Mackay also got a guernsey a few times. Is this all just down to random coincidence?
I also find it exceptionally strange that jockey briefs seem to have been available in those four towns a couple of years or more before they were available in the cities. And Henty and Culcairn in 1948!? Both insignificant fly specks unknown to most Australians even now.
Milongal: Looks like we will avoid any indiginous taboos when we’re eventually able to show that SM was only ‘whisky tango’ and therefore not a worry to indiginoys folk. Aside from that we never have mentioned his name so we’re still in the clear for all that. Thanks for your well meaning cultural lesson, this being a reminder that we should all endeavour to adhere to the time honoured traditions of ours and other peoples’s respective cultures. The warning I refered to in my last post is however, out of place in my opinion, unless of course certain aquired indigenous assets like Mr. Grant or Mr. Martin suddenly pick up on the case, either of which woukd be be most welcome I’m sure.
Milongal: Looks like we will avoid any indiginous taboos when we’re eventually able to show that SM was only ‘whisky tango’ and therefore not a worry to indiginoys folk. Aside from that we never have mentioned his name so we’re still in the clear for all that. Thanks for your well meaning cultural lesszon, this being a reminder that we should all endeavour to adhere to the time honoured traditions of ours and other peoples’s respective cultures. The warning I refered to in my last post is however, out of place in my opinion, unless of course certain aquired indigenous assets like Mr. Grant or Mr. Martin suddenly pick up on the case, either of which woukd be be most welcome I’m sure.
Whilst I often find fault with the book’s presumptions of fact, I don’t see much point in refuting most asspects of the quoted assertions from police, newspapers or details of the inquest. For instance we must take judicial notice that the TS slip was located in the Stamina trousers in line with Leane’s production of the garment and his own testimony at the inquest. I’m not totally confident that mix ups did not occur at some point, which might well have missplaced other items of clothing, including the extra sports coat which Cleland tried on and found to be of tighter fit than that worn by our SM; we know nothing of it’s colour or even place of manufacture. We also seem to have wildly differing accounts on numbers of hankies (1-5), ties (3-5), boxers and jockies, also with the stationary items; all of which we might theorise upon until the cows come home but will not help one iota. My guess is that the old detective and his team fudged on quite a deal of the factuals and most of the story line, knowing full well that they could retain certain evidence and paraphernalia essential to a follow-up, more self serving case cracker book in the future. To our advantage, there still seems to be a thread or two missing from essential ingredients needed to close; so lets get a move on and keep the bastards honest…
Byron: I guess it could be said that the towns you mentioned would have had a fair proportion of recently arrived displaced Europeans who were not averse to togging up with newfangled fancy jocks. Although Mackay had a different industry base in suger, many Italian cane cutters of that time would have been into that sort of gear. Liz Stainforth, the soon to be exhonorated spy’s folks were from Henty, so could have cornered the emerging market for briefs. What sort of clobber was old Tibor, Liz’s mate, selling for Mayer Co. in Adelaide? you’ll of course remember Eugene F. Azlan, the underware salesman who tried to off himself in his Adelaide hotel room, exactly the same way back in the twenties. There was also the Jewellry vendor Ernie Kinnebrow earlier on at Henley Beach, but when he decided Adelaide sucked, he used his gat to erase it from his mind.
Byron Deveson: I guess the question is whether we could say with any confidence that jockey briefs were marketed at specific groups of people in Australia in 1947/1948. From Broken Hill (Efron’s advertised in both the Barrier Miner and splashed across page 1 of the Barrier Daily Truth), one might indeed wonder if miners were early adopters?
It’s quite apparent that miners, of that time, being mindful of new trends in safety attire, were not going to be too fussed about the odd skid mark on their Jockey undergarments so long as they kept the essential tackle harnessed and well clear of the crushing rollers. The slight soiling detected in SM’s own Jockey briefs might well have occurred much earlier during his underground stint at ‘the hill’ for all we know and as such, he really didn’t give a shit.
Nick, to my knowledge I would not think that the Barrier miners were early adopters in most areas, quite the reverse in fact. Yes, they were mostly superficial socialists, but that was just a veneer of virtue signalling that camouflaged a deep rooted conservatism of the worst sort. Self and Pelf was their motto. Lithgow was a heavily unionised town in 1948 (including coal mining and steel mills) and in my estimation Lithgow was pretty much like Broken Hill regarding politics and social outlook. Whyalla was heavily unionised at the time and I suspect Mackay would also have been a strong union town. As for Henty and Culcairn? I have had dealings in many towns on the western slopes of New South Wales and I would say they were, and still are, strongholds of agrarian socialism with an emphasis on socialising losses and privatising gains.
Why was an apparently scarce commodity only available in heavily unionised towns? The only reason I can think of is that the shops that had access to supplies of jockey briefs were associated in some way with people who had political influence. In Australia immediately post WW2 that meant the unions and some sections of the then Labour federal government. I once helped to research a book dealing with the criminal milieu of Sydney in the 1930s and 1940s and it was clear that criminality perverted the social, political, legal and commercial systems at the time. There were severe import restrictions, currency controls and other bureaucratic hurdles that had to be got around and these would have required high level political help.
Immediately after WW2 it was difficult to obtain even basic items and imports were severely restricted. Such basic things as timber and bricks were in short supply even in the early 1950s. It beggars belief. A shortage of timber when just about every town in the populated parts of Australia had existing saw mills pre WW2!? How could this be? I grew up with the Snowy Scheme and even as a youngster I was amazed, bewildered even, by the fact that the houses built for the Snowy Scheme workers in the early 1950s were imported prefabricated even though suitable trees and saw mills existed in profusion in the immediate countryside; within a few miles. But when the truth about Harold Wilson’s connection to the company that “laundered” timber from Soviet gulags (via Finland from memory) became known in the 1980s I realised this explained everything. It was nothing more than political corruption at work. In the 1970s traces of Sirex wasp (a destructive pest that did not occur in Australia) were found in some of the timbers of these prefab houses and an investigation into the real origin of the timber revealed that the timber came from Siberia. Timber imported from Siberia when there was a saw mill in the centre of the SMA town!? It doesn’t compute.
I will now segue to another aspect of jockey briefs. It is my understanding (I might be wrong) that jockey briefs are preferred by those who require firm support and I hark back to my testable hypothesis that SM suffered from some form of connective tissue disease. This hypothesis is potentially testable because SM’s hair samples could be tested to detect any genetic defects in the collagen that are associated with connective tissue diseases. Connective tissue diseases are protean diseases, which means that they are associated with a constellation of symptoms. A loose anal sphincter and concomitant incontinence is one uncommon symptom, and anecdotally so are large testicles and a saggy scrotum. I wonder if Lawson could confirm? I have found more evidence that supports (no pun intended, I am pretty humourless) the hypothesis that SM might have had a genetic connective tissue disease but enough is enough and I will leave this for another time.
John,
you mentioned the sugar mills at Mackay and I wonder if these mills still used strontium hydroxide to process molasses in 1948? You will remember that SM had high levels of strontium in his hair and strontium isn’t (and wasn’t in 1948) used for much else.
My personsl view is that ‘very small writing’ has throughout the history of written communications, frequently played an important role in preventing secrets from getting into the wrong hands. I can well imagine that such methods have often met with success in keeping privilaged information secret, this being in it’s very form of concealment by minaturisation which is merely one method. However there is a big difference twixt hiding text because of its deemed invisibility to the naked eye and writing words in a shared codex form for the express purpose of secret direct correspondence with a confidant. The two described forms of deception would not normally be used conjointly as this could create misunderstanding and likely loss of an asset or even failure of a planned initiative. But in reallity our operation was not likely to have required such methods of operational complexity and at the end of the day, newly gazetted Detective Brown’s so called tiny writing on the cover of an important piece of evidence, was in all probabilty, put there for convenience by none other than newly gazetted, not yet competent, Detective Brown.
Byron: I can just as easilly imagine that most of the towns in question, being rather on the affluent and progressive end of the spectrum, simply did their best to keep up with assumed big city trends in fashion. Those same towns all seemed to have well read local advertising newspapers to keep their luxury hungry public well updated on the latest post war imports. Of course local commerce would also take advantage of faddish foreign trends and promote their ready access to supply. Meanwhile in staid old Sydney and Melbourne, keeping up with the Jones would not have entailed parading around in elastic gusseted yankee nut busters, being rather prepared to trust local long established garment manufacturers like Bonds and Yakka for their assured reliability . Lets not forget also that old SM, whilst having ample means of lateral support, compared with most men of his era, who just let-em-dangle, he was conversely short on the more essential sox (sic). I don’t have to remind most folk that Australia, whilst being a large raw wool producer, did not have knitting mills the likes of England to whom it was almost totally beholding for finished knitwear attire like mens knitted woolen sox….I’m sure your comment on strontium hydroxide in sugar refining is valid, though that would be most likely to have concerned a mill worker as opposed to a tough old Ernest Borgnine type ‘Summer of the Seventeenth Doll’ dedicated field cane cutter. We can come back to cane growing chemicals and fumigants down the track if need because it is getting away a little from our thread on nuts and bolts.
I can’t really see too many problems with Jimmy’s reference to disposal of the original body, that is if meaning for the words are taken literally. We also must not forget the user’s midland origins and possibly a lack of sophistication with his application. The only thing that comes to mind is, if he may have been refering to another dead’n with unresolved cause of death issues, and who just so happened to have arrived for processing around the same time as SM. Perhaps Wolff Cohen, who was booked in on the very same day could be a contender for ‘original body’ status though I’d guess that he was long gone before Paul Lawson’s interventionn in the case. But of course the man to ask is still out there as far as we know, so perhaps the query might well be put to ‘Henry’ by his confidant, the ever reliable Clive. Its coming up to the grand old man’s centeniary gig in August and he’s apt to be his usual compliant self with regard to well recalled involment in the case which made his name a household word no less.
@JS: I don’t (and never have) read too much into ‘original body’, it’s just wording for ‘actual body’ (as opposed to the plaster cast).
2c
So it may not have been Durham but Dinham, who connects with the words ‘disposal and original’ from Henry’s official diary, though nothing changes in that regard. In the context of Wolff Cohen’s possible connection, take notice that the man known as ‘Bill the butcher from Barmera’ or ‘Kosher Bill’, had arrived in Australia as a displaced German Jew in 1938? and immediately settled in the Loxton Renmark region of South Australia’s Riverland fruitbowl. This was about the same time that Keith Mangnoson commenced working on fruit farms in the same district and where he claimed to have bumped into our SM or his Carl Thompsen from ‘one of those colder snowy climates’ about 1939. By 1944 Bill was living in central Adelaide where he had set up his own business and then he unexpectedly dies on 1/12/48, same day as SM and just after celebrating his earning Australian citizenship. Another displaced Jew, Tibor Kaldor’s own naturalization and his subsequent premature demise occurred two weeks later and all three deceased ended up as slabmates at West Terrace Mortuary. Just as everything else about this weird case, I’m not at all sure if anything useful can be derived from the above, though it’s now out there for consuderation and comment if desired.
Detective Horsnell only seemed to get a mention when he collected the completed SM bust from wherever and took it back to wherever else for photo ops on Thursday 16th June 1948. It might be noted that Det. Horsnell appears in a photo somewhere accompanied by Det. Sgt. Leane with connection to displayed contents of the Keane suitcase so it may be not be unreasonable to imply that this pic was taken at the same sitting, not at the time of discovery, but two days after SM’s funeral and one day prior to commencement of the inquest. After the funeral and on that same day, a temporary sign was erected over the grave to advise rather impersonally ‘Unknown Somerton Body’ in black stencilled capitals. Could it be that the stencil brush with it’s out of place black residue and surplus zinc template was subsequently included with the other bits and pieces from the suitcase for evidence of continuity or to signify case closed or something….That old rogue Jack Cleland set up the business with the Tamam Shud slip without an doubt in my books to support his credibility and pride. Being the main advocate for a suicide verdict and even using his alleged chance finding of that certain piece of clinching evidence, he then brazenly refered to it’s input at the inquest as reaffirmation of his previously stated expert opinion. He also dropped casual hints, though not sufficient to bring suspicions about the strange circumstances of the Tamam Shud slip’s fob pocket location, then also played dumb about its implications supporting self destruction by the unfortunate bearer. A man of big Jack’s status would certainly have known the meaning, but knowingly sat back until it was translated by a member of the press as could be anticipated. When later he bacame aware that some newspaper reporters were not buying the con, he probably set in motion the full Rubaiyat cover up scenario with the book and missing, near matching cutout slip page, not considering how its aftermath was likely to play out decades after his passing.
Len Brown in his celebrated TV debut for the Littlemore SM documentary gave viewers exclusive details of the case, such as how the Taman (sic) Shud slip had been found secreted within a hidden pocket in the fellow’s jacket. At the time of his involvement in the case, being new to the detective game, Len was given limited responsibilities such as tracking down likely origins of the intriguing Rubaiyat slip’s translation and later determining origins of the dead mans clothing for which he deserves due credit for his dilligence. Why he should have then been taken off the case just as things started rolling, we’re not to know, however according to recently disclosed though uncredited sources, he seems to have maintained a close interest in the case. This being to the extent that he became cognizant on certain matters of evidentiary interest relative to a copy of the Rubaiyat that had come to light the month after his transfer. He spoke later of being aware of tiny writing such as phone numbers on the cover and some sort of lettering like a code. He also may have conveniently suggested that this could relate to personal memos or the like, without elaboration as to its nature. I’m sure Detective Brown had learned a deal about discretion and the folly of unintentional use of potential evidence as a jotting pad consequent of his Somerton Man experience and that it served his career well into the future; a most comendable future at that, we might add.
Been revisiting the name on the tie, and I’m not convinced the last ‘E’ is an ‘E’ at all. At first I thought it might have been ‘J’ ‘C’ (either to form Keanjc) or as a suffix of some sort. The surname KERNJC (possibly Slovene, Turkish or Croatian) exists (And is sometimes apparently misspelt KEANJC), however to me the ‘j’ seems to loop the other way (and almost appears to be something like a lower case with a diacritical (perhaps like a cedilla – or better yet ogonek). These sort of diacritics would feature in Baltic languages – and possibly other languages of Eastern Europe.
If it wasn’t for how close to the ‘N’ it comes, I could almost imagine it being ‘KEAN JR’…
Although if we have a look at the shape of the K, you could almost imagine it being an ‘R’ (with the top missing) – giving Reanic – or something similar. While this (obviously) is different to KEAN on other items of clothing, I’ve never really been comfortable with both KEAN and KEANE being there anyway (it would be nice if we had images of the other occurrences of KEAN(e).
NB: The clearest picture for the tie is on anemptyglass IMO
NB2: While I (and others) have questioned the presence of Microwriting on things related to the case, I’m not sure anyone has claimed it doesn’t exist as a technique (which I sort of read to be implied over on blogspot). Certainly I agree that as a technique it exists and has been extensively used (just google ‘microdot’). Specifically, I think “…contrary to the comments of the nay sayers, there are good examples of micro code and the use of micro writing as a form of clandestine communication…” suggests that people have claimed ‘micro writing doesn’t exist’ as opposed to ‘I don’t think there is micro writing on …’. I may have missed something, but I haven’t read anyone claiming that microwriting as a technique is baloney…. #justayin
Marie Ann Harkness, Elizabeth Bethune Stainforth; both interesting candidates for further intensive follow-up investigation re espionage, microwave cipher codex communication; plus much more unintelligable discussion at a much later date. This can wait until pigs are flying overhead, by which juncture the dust will have settled and their undisputed involvement in the Somerton case inexplicably nullified, along with a certain degree of associated embarrassment. By then we shall also have come up with a logical response to Len Brown’s apparent continued involvement with the celebrated case, long after his re assigning. This varified by intelligence provided by the ever resourceful scenes of crime operative (id deltd.) as affirmed by Snr. Afio controller (id wthld.)
Milongal: And a hearty hi ho silver to your little gem on the generally accepted existence of micro writing; though I think the man at BS refuses to ackowledge our laymen’s authority to discuss such classified issues without AfIO clearance..That damned tie over at Anemptyglass (which translates to ATTEN in Dutch parlance, seems equivilent to the ‘turn down an empty glass’ ie. bottoms up of verse 75’s post script ending Tamam Shud), screwed me up with its narrow tail folded over and pinned to the wider tounge end, so that the writing appeared to be on the outer face, which it isn’t apparently.
Nick: Seems that me mate’s now getting into polms over the way. Verse 46 is quite enlightening though the rhymn and metre could do with a little polish. I’m sure we could do better, don’t you think?….
Nick: Seems that me mate’s now getting into polms over the way. Verse 46 is quite enlightening though the rhymn and metre could do with a little polish. I’m sure we could do better, don’t you think?…..
@JS – pretty sure that’s exactly where ‘An Empty Glass’ came from. I think that was an effort by someone who posted here a while to create a wiki that would evolve through everyone’s efforts – and I’ve often found stuff there that I haven’t stumbled across elsewhere…
The more I look at that dang tie in that pic, though:
1) the less I think the last ‘E’ is an ‘E’ at all
2) the more I convince myself the ‘K’ is actually a broken ‘R’
3) I’m not liking the ‘T’ as a’T’ anymore, but not sure what it is….’7′?
Just need another A and a D for your Dutch stuff….did Prof DA have anything to do with it? 😛
The desert sands in turn will pass
And changeth dunes to seas of grass
From whence fair Saki shows her class
To me she beckons, fill my glass
Those iv’ry tits and perfect arse
Then I awake to thee alas….Tamam Shud.
A lonely cameleer’s lament..v76/1st E.F.
Milongal: That was Sue d’nimh who used to play with us under that mask, then left to do her/his own thing. All of the visuals on that site are top notch, but sadly the way it’s set up can leave visitors hanging somewhat….AD would in real life most likely stand for either Adelaide or Alan Dalziel, the Dept. of Immigration boss from the 40’s era….As for the tie, of course there’s been much past related input, but no harm going over it again; it’d be interesting if photos or descriptions of the two missings ones could be tracked down.
milongal: It may not be true, but the letter accepted for “T” looks just like a Hebrew [V,W] Vav.
milongal: It may not be true, but the letter accepted as “T” looks just like the Hebrew [V,W] Vav.
M. Chakarov: And why not. Keane also has a Germanic derivation and Wilhelm could correspondingly identify him as being a German Jew I guess. Something well worthy of consideration, despite that meddlesome foreskin which has always been a mere distraction in my personal opinion.
Milongal: Mate, I’m trying to figure this Sands & Macdougall Adelaide residental mumbo jumbo out but it’s a bit beyond my pay (& intellectual) scale. I don’t want to bother you with possible false leads. I can’t get through to Dereks stuff which is not quite in my date range anyway, so perhaps you can give me some pointers for free access to same if that’s possible. My inquiries are at a critical point and I need this info to expand on recent developments, svp.
http://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/almanacsanddirectories/1948sandsandmac
Change the year and you can get some others (although some of them are multi-year (i think 45/46) but if you remove the last npart of the address you should get links to all of them.
Searching it is a little painful. Generally every entry appears sorted by name and sorted by street, but the order in which that happens doesn’t appear consistent (and sometimes country stuff is mixed in too).
Searching does EXACT WORD matches only (which is cumbersome, especially when their OCR is wrong). This means you can’t search partial names. SMIT will give you results that don’t include SMITH (which is REALLY annoying), and I haven’t found a way to do wildcards. In general, if you know the address you’re looking for (rather than the name) it’s easier to search by street name (in particular when we were looking into Greeks whose names kept changing I resorted to searching for Jetty Rd (do you know how many Jetty Rd’s there are in Adelaide? I think almost every suburb between Largs and Moana has one – even when there’s no jetty there) – so sometimes searching for a nearby landmark or suburb helps (eg ‘National Fish’ reliably gets us to Jetty road in that era).
It’s painful, but as you get used to it it can become quite useful….
oh, and I think one of DA’s S&M PDF is borked (plus they’re stupidly big).
NB: All the bits I said about searching apply to the library’s FLASH version. With PDF I imagine you can do better partial searches….which I wish I’d thought of before…because it’s probably a more useful way when you’re varying the names up some….
Milongal: Many thanks; I’ll let my grandfather to see what he can pull up. It’s only an address which I’m hoping to match with known names, and whilst it covers a fairly lengthy period it should be no worries to a retired octogenarian US Navy signaller who recently spent a week in Adelaide.
Milongal: If you care to wander over to Archives and check out Arno Koehler’s immigration file, you might get some better understanding of what I feel could be the key to Rebecca (not Danetta). He and certain other people in the Tivoli scene were in Adelaide at the relevent time, after having pursued their circus and stage careers unabated throughout the war years. In particular check his signature in 1939 with that of 1947 to get a better idea of what I think is going on. NB: Arno is just one example.
@JS: I forgot to relate my favourite story about the Immigration Department (I meant to in response to Dalziel).
As you may have noticed the Government is obsessed with Acronyms and it’s fair to say that Homeaffairs (formerly DIBP (or as we used to call them DImmiBoP)/ACBPS, formerly DI, formerly DIAC, formerly DIMMI, formerly IMMI etc) has had its fair share of acronym aliases. Before becoming DIAC (Department of Immigration and Citizenship) it briefly left the ‘A’ out, much to the amusement of at least most of Canberra, and probably most of Australia, and were DIC. The catalyst for adding the A was when someone sent an email to their esteemed leader (not sure what the title for a department head was at the time) and addressed him as DIC Head….
and so they became DIAC….
Someone seems to be of the opinion that Len Brown may still be with us, though incommunicado from what we are told. In earlier research I think his birth year was 1915 so if true, he leaves Paul Lawson (Henry) for dead, so to speak…I’ve just done opened up the code page quite a wack more than I’ve been accustomed to doing in the past and that grainy paper which reminds me somewhat of the old Strathmore linen, is quite revealing. Of course Len’s not so tiny faux pas telephone number can no longer be seen, though unsurprisingly a host of other letters, numbers, animal depictions and geometric configurations appear, the more one scans the ridges and valleys; these include the secret jet fighter with it’s designate CA code and even my dear old dad’s Jewish birth name; what a find and all thanks to Flash BS.
Milongal: See what you mean about Sandy Mac’s index and allmost regret seeking your help in accessing it’s labyrinths. Between me and the old duffer with the big toy, its truelly the blind leading the unsighted. A real co-incidence to be sure was an unsolicited score with an A. Kohler of 21 Ferris Avenue, Somerton Park which appears to be around 100 yards from those much maligned beach stairs and SM’s last Kenesta break. It’s likely to end up a bummer and so our search resumes for the ‘dead letter drop’ on Railway Terrace, though at present we appear to be heading for the bay in an out of control Glenelg tram with no brakes.
Milongal: Strange that you bring up the DIAC acronym for the Department head of Immigration and Citizenship, which Alan Dalziel just so happened to be in SM’s day. He was better known amongst Foreign Affairs staff as ‘the head hunter’ or ‘the Zealot’. Of course we are all familiar with the DAYAK head hunters of Borneo so the old dick head God botherer would have been aptly named even then.
mot hai bah
Just checking the line and wondering why my post is not getting through; seems to be fine now…Milongal: I had been thinking how much alike the two addresses, 90A Moseley and your 4 (old) Marlborough Streets are with regard to their general aspect and close proximity to the bay, albeit fair distance apart. Both seem to be placed well to deflect unwanted attention, yet not be likely to create any interest to passing police patrols. Being within just metres of reliable, bus and rail services, each would also have been at an added advantage if such premises were to be used for illicit purposes, or perhaps for reception of visitors and deliveries. They actually remind me of another such address near town, which is of interest and with which both might easily connect by rail for possible receipt and transmition of safe hand mail for instance.
Without being overly cynical, I think we could draw close parallels between any 2 addresses in Adelaide…
That said it is worth noting that the stretch of beach from about Grange (Actually possibly from Tennyson/West Lakes) to Somerton or Brighton is probably the most affluent area of the Western Suburbs (These days further North at North Haven would be in the mix too – but pretty sure that area came a lot later). (Not sure how land prices go as we move inland through Cowandilla, Fulham Gardens etc, and obviously suburbs closer the city loke Croydon/West Croydon attract some coin too, but pretty sure the beachside mansions of Henley, Glenelg and Grange outstrip them (there’s some expensive beachisde houses further North through Semaphore, Largs etc, but again I don’t think they’re quite on par with the beachside tennis court houses in Henley).
Offtopic: At some stage on Trove I stumbled across a curious murder/suicide in Marlborough street some 23 years earlier. Almost certainly unrelated, but not without conspiracy theorists who argue it must have been a double homicide not a murder-suicide….(with the sort of headline you wouldn’t read these days “A Parson’s Son and His Wife Cross the Great Divide with Bullets In their Brains”) – look for Normamby Herman Howard
So Paul, according to Derek’s latest, avers that SM’s internal organs including his brain, had all been removed by the time he started his cast work on 7th july ’48. It does make sense to a degree, but then why did John Cleland inquire with his young Adelaide Zoo acquaintance about the brain, then appear to be chaffed when he couldn’t get a sample. Surely he should have known that all the offal would have gone off to pathology early on, and likely not been re installed due to the interim negative results. As far as that goes I’m not sure why there was the need for Elliott to go with the fancy Egyptian mummy business and perma-seal grave, for possible exhumation later, unless the organs had by then been simply bagged into the stomach cavity prior to burial. That also sounds reasonable and more ethical I guess, rather than to retain SM’s extra bits in a laboratory situation for who knows how long, then discard it without ceremony.
Milongal, you seem to know your way around … where are the dugouts on Somerton Beach in relation to the Children’s Home, north or south?
I guess I must have been smitten by the old frivolity bug with regard to my house similarity assessment; though I couldn’t help but notice that neither property seems to have had any buildings opposite in ’48 and that could have been fairly helpful for someone in Prosper’s line of business eg. 4 Marlborough had a sports field (still has) and 103 Moseley, across from 90A, was part of an estate which was only built on in 1959.
Milongal: I couldn’t pick up the N.H. Howard murder suicide on trove; coincidently Richard Bungey DFC, who apparently tried to off his lad, then missed Bomber the foxy, before improving his aim on himself in ’43, between Brighton dunes and Somerton beach, near the dugouts, had a dad Ernest who just happened to be the local Anglican? pastor.
@Pete: I’ve never really understood what they meant by the ‘dugouts’, but I have a vague idea GF suggested they were near ‘The Broadway’ (A kiosk where the Esplanade becomes pedestrian only), and the way I read it, it sounds South from there – and he seems at pains to clarify that it was not ‘at the dugouts’ but rather ‘walking toward the dugouts’ ? He seems to place them between Bickford (where SM was found) and Whyte St (where I think Lyons lived?). I find it fairly interesting that GF who boarded at Sacred Heart and would likely have often visited those beaches doesn’t seem to have heard of them otherwise (And certainly my visits to Adelaide beaches was usually more the Semaphore-North Haven stretch – well North of any of it). Personally, I would have expected them further South than Whyte – where the beach widens, but I’ve never actually heard of them either….
@JS: (Based on them S&M listings) Marlborough St used to be numbered the other way – so Number 4 back then would (I think) have been what today is number 150 – Opposite Star of the Sea Primary School. Until recently, the school didn’t stretch out to Marlborough (From memory, when I went to school there, there were houses along Marlborough, except for the corner of Seaview (now the Marine Discovery Centre, was the school library (actually, not certain about that, there might have been a house there and then the library 1 block South along Seaview back toward the convent, it’s been a while)) and the corner of Military (which was part of the playground – as indeed it is today). If you look at it on googlemaps you’ll notice they still show 3 blocks in the section that is now the playing fields for the school. I don’t know exact dates that the school spread that far, but I think it would have been the mid noughties….
That said, I can’t really comment on the age of the houses, although I note that Almanac of Joy that is S&M listsd 3 houses between Seaview and Military:
Marlborough st—S side R side from Esplanade
1 Kelsey. J.
1 Singleton, W. E.
3 Green. Mrs. T.
5 Bowley, A. E.
Military rd
Note: I notice they say ‘Esplanade’ and don’t mention Seaview Rd, but I’m assuming the blocks were similar today that there was no number between the Esplanade and Seaview (I think the numbering along Seaview suggests that – the Western side only has 1 number between South and North St, and 1 number between North and Marlborough – suggesting most of those blocks filled the entire gap between the Esplanade and Seaview – and I’d even theorise that 499 would have been the house on the corner of Marlborough (and to me this makes some sense because in my memory the corner used to be a shop facing out toward Seaview).
Pete,
the dugout were to the north I think. There are aerial photos of the beach taken about 1936 that show the sand dunes.
Some Curious Keans….(total speculation)
Kean seems to have been a reasonably common name around Tasmania (in particular Hobart and Swansea, and there’s some interesting families there. If we convince ourselves that the ‘T’ on the tie is not a ‘T’ at all, that allows us to look for Keans of any name. If we further speculate that the ‘E’ on the tie is actually ‘jr’, maybe we need to find a pair of brothers who were likely somewhere (let’s say in the military) together….(basically the idea is that 2 Keans in the same location need to be distinguished somehow – the military isn’t big on firstnames, so ‘Jr’ might make sense in this context).
Without too much looking, we find two in WWI in 12th Battalion, 25th Reinforcement. Alfred Edney Kean and Herbert Henry Kean. Alfred (on the face of it) appears the older, and his fate is listed as “Effective abroad” (stayed overseas), but Herbert is listed as returning in 1919. Alfred appears to have been an interesting character, among other things being court-marshalled for threatening a superior. But some of the family details are hard to trace and/or inconsistent.
AE lists his next of Kin as Emily Kean (Mother) and HH as Frederick George Kean (Father), and I managed to find a birth certificate for HH, listing his birth date as 12/7/1893 (which obviously put him just a touch on the old side for SM), and AE’s military record would suggest he was born Dec 1891 or Jan 1892. There are some similarities to the writing on the tie and some parts of the NAA archive for HH (The split ‘E’ in KEAN’, some of the ‘7’ in different dates) however it’s hard to tell which parts of his record are his writing, and which bits would have been prepared by someone else (and while it’s possible someoen else wrote the name on the tie, I don’t like the likelihood that one of the officers processing him would have been that person). His height was 5’9.5″ – which is in the ball park.
His mother appears to have died in 1923 and his father in 1932, which leaves six siblings (and AE may not have been in the country) who *might* have been able to identify him – if they had remained in touch.
There’s 3 scars listed on his defence force medical (which probably discount him as being of interest)
1) Scar right knee
2) Scar behind right knee joint
3) Vaccination 3 left (?)
Of course, why he’s in SA, why his siblings never came forward, his scars etc – there’s a million reasons to discount this guy, and personally, I wouldn’t push the idea of this specific guy being SM – but more trying to flag another direction to look (which helps explain away the Kean/e problem (although it would be really nice to see the ‘Kean’ and ‘Keane’ from the other articles of clothing to see whether we should have any confidence in the ‘E’ being an ‘E’))…
A final note of interest. in AE’s military record on NAA, there’s 2 pages (71 and 72) that are just scriblings in pencil (not even letters, just scribbles and a signature) with a watermark in the background that looks something like ‘DICKINSON BOND 804’ (and a word I can’t make out at all)….must have some sort of significance given it was included in the file…..
Byron, Milongal … on another note, where do you think Cleland and Cowan were when they examined the clothing?
Milongal Anors: This is work that has been in progress for quite a while and it is inexplicably complicated, however several of our old addresses have just jumped out of nowhere, including 200 Hindley St. which as you’ll no doubt recall, comes up in Prosper’s Adelaide ads. It is so hot and so obviously involved, that I’d implore anyone who has an interest in SM’s id. and why he had to go, to jump on it with a will. It will most assuredly lead us to the heart of the matter given what it entails and will surely surprise just about everyone.
I was thinking about the dugouts yesterday/last night. I had assumed they were little huts on the beach (ie literally dugout with maybe a tin hat put on them), but it occured to me perhaps it was a clump of cheap housing at the foreshore away from the beach itself. Googling for dugouts certainly gets references to shacks in the 1930s (although further away from the beach) including one with a boat for a roof that was apparently the beginning of the Uniting Church in Brighton (or something).
Perhaps the reason even locals like GF don’t recognise the term, is because we’ve all assumed it referred to a beach feature rather than little shacks on the Esplanade (which over time became houses and/or lost their nickname).
@BD: GF’s book talks about the witness saying it all happened near the Broadway (North of Somerton) heading toward the dugouts (in a Southerly direction). He then speculates that ‘the dugouts’ referred to something between Bickford and Whyte Streets.
@JS: I fell like I missed something in your last post?
@PB: Never given it that much thought – sort of assumed evidence lockup or copshop or an office at Adelaide Uni.
Incidentally, Brown points out that not ALL labels were removed from the clothes in the suitcase, and highlights one shirt (which Littlemore comments is ‘new-looking”) that still has a label (a ‘Pelaco’). It does sort of give weight to the idea that the ones without labels are secondhand/donated….
Brown also talks to Littlemore about the book in the car….”A doctor came forward, or actually I think it was a Chemist….”
TALITS
Nick; What’s going on regarding the exhumation?
Bumpkin: I suspect there will be a lot more to come re the proposed exhumation over the next few days, but we shall see…
Nick; There seems to be something big ongoing. Please provide a summary. Or at least a link.
Bumpkin: according to commenter thedude747, the real “Ronald Francis” – to everyone’s surprise – turned up at the Adelaide premiere of a Somerton Man documentary (available to watch on Vimeo this Monday). Facts remain sparse right now, but I’ll be posting just as soon as the dust settles…
Nick: A couple of things are starting to come through on some on the filmmakers pay site and Adelaide now which are on the exclusion zone for we cheapskates. Seems that they have been looking at Willen Styn of all people which does not encourage much enthusiam for a breakthrough any time soon. I‘d say that the Thomsons have been the main focus point for the thrust of their investigation, which is a recipe for an inevitable dinasaurial dead end if my layman‘s judgement is anything to go on. Hope I’m wrong for the sake of their well meaning commercial outlay.
Hi all! Great site I just found while googling, you have all put so much time into this case it is totally amazing and I hope you find the answers!!!
Anyone here know about this? or going? I managed to find out via the net that the guy that put up the campaign is really into supporting charity causes, don’t know much else about it all… I just found out about the case and would love to be able to get there but I’m in Sydney. 🙁
https://www.gofundme.com/lestweforgetourunknownman?fbclid=IwAR0IgIHBHAjc8bYH6cVjmQJXXQ1tmPKPBUoNgUBZ2-aniAHCH9MWksGhflc
I support exhumation because if DNA testing leads to the discovery of several distant cousins, a genealogist might be able to triangulate a direct ancestor for SM who lived with in the past 2-3 hundred years. Then we could just look at the family tree (you might be astonished to see how many family trees are posted online on genealogy.com, ancestry.com and such sites) or examine the family via public records and find a man born circa 1905 who doesn’t have a death date to be found in the records. Then tactfully ask a niece or nephew a few questions. Sure, the genealogy would require some elbow grease, but public records are public, and so are a lot of family trees, and the public has proven willing to use a lot of elbow grease online on this case. How many men who DNA + genealogy can’t eliminate as him were born around 1905? We won’t know until we get DNA results, but say 50-100? And how many of those were likely to be missing persons? Zero for most people, but for SM, one. Or if not a missing person, at least a man with no death date. Just let a crowdfunded genealogist show us 6 inch spot in the haystack we need to look at, and let us eliminate one straw at a time. If this is done well, I think we’ll have a name for SM in no time. And that’s not even mentioning dental analysis, which could show where he grew up. That’s another 99% eliminated. Not a needle in a haystack anymore.
And he really may have Derek Abbott’s wife as a granddaughter. Our emotional motivations for seeing him exhumed, I think, are acceptable as long as they aren’t inherently evil, as long as there is also a legitimate reason to do so.
Dante: S.A. A.G. Vicki Chapman is not so hot on the idea of exhumation, now that she’s in the seat of power and had a talks with Sapol who maintain an open (long empty) file. Meanwhile Prof. Abbott would like for you and your monied supporters to come up with an incy twenty K in order for the desired uplift to get legs.
Dante,
I fully agree with what you have said. I have some experience, in an amateur capacity, in finding the biological parents of adoptees from autosomal DNA tests coupled with the Ancestry.com database. In one case I found an almost invisible (records wise) father although his surname had changed in spelling three times in the previous three generations. After I had positively identified him hospital data (a last known address) at the time of his death in 1923 put him at the same address as the known mother. And then a DNA match at the second cousin level showed up and that proved beyond any doubt that the identification was correct. Since then other more distant DNA matches with the same rare surname and descended from the same distant forbears have showed up and the identification is beyond doubt. As you have said it does require a bit of effort but it is do-able.
You mention narrowing down the field to reduce the research effort that is required. I agree and that is why I have made a case elsewhere for believing that SM might have carried a genetic condition (connective tissue disease) and, as this is a fairly rare condition it might be useful in identifying SM’s relatives. There are connective tissue disease support groups with quite a few members and I am sure these would jump at a chance to get some publicity by helping to identify possible distant family members.
I have found that first looking for rare surnames or for small villages among the DNA matches is time consuming but once you find two DNA matches who have a common forbear (or a forbear born in the same small village) then it is just a matter of extending the family tree from the common shared ancestor and with some luck you will have a strong identification. I have about 25,000 DNA matches on Ancestry.com and I have found hundreds of such leads to follow. Critics will claim that “non paternal events” will invalidate the search process but this isn’t true because there are so many lead to follow that the process is error correcting if carried out properly. The redundancy that is present due to the large number of DNA matches allows multiple triangulation tests and multiple cross checks.
There is no reason why SM should have any fewer DNA matches in the Ancestry.com (for example, there are other databases as well) than me, and I have about 25,000 out to the eighth cousin level. At the more manageable 4th to 6th cousin level I have 160 matches. That should be a sufficient number of matches to allow us to positively identify SM.
Dante: in my view, exhumation remains completely the wrong vehicle for getting emotional or genealogical ‘closure’, no matter how (in)famous the cold case supposedly linked to the family is. Getting the Somerton Man’s DNA would be intellectually interesting, sure, but that doesn’t make it “legitimate” in any useful sense of the word.
I saw a show on television today about a man’s body that had been found on the beach in Gary, Indiana. The investigators were trying to assess if the body could have floated down Lake Michigan from Chicago, Illinois, and how long it would have taken to do so. The body was found with on backside on the sand. No sand or water was found in the larynx. Also, no fluid was found in the lungs. There was no decomposition of the man’s internal organs. The investigators said that this indicated that the body was placed at the location it was found at a later date. I wonder if this is indicated in the case of the Somerton Man?
Has anyone considered the other two murders that happened where the bodies were on the beach and had a copy of the Rubaiyat on them. Wasn’t one of the victims related to a diplomat of some sort? Too many coincidences with the Jestyn person…Has anyone read the tamam shud cipher: principles and method? It gives new clues to the murder and deciphers the last coded message. Just sayin’
Sounds like an ad from the author #justsayin’
I am not the author. I write children’s stories..My books will be coming out on amazon and kindle at the end of summer..The series is called The Adventures of Scrabbit and Jackson Merriweather…I was on the sidelines watching and listening as the author solved the riddles and broke the code, however, and the work stands…No need for me to convince anyone
Don’t mind us Zac. We are pretty much up to date with the posting of fanciful SM breaking news stories, supplied to us free of charge from a couple of dedicated SM sites. We would be also somewhat reluctant to part with our hardly earned cash however, perhaps you are able to enlighten us on details of the third body and its ROK edition details, gratis for our files. In exchange I have some breaking news on Jestyn which has not been made public to my Knowledge : Jessica Ellen Thomson, Ellen Jessie Thomson and THOMSON JESSICA ELLEN HAMILTON, all appear as detailed on the same government lists, each giving a death year of 2007. Maybe they refer to the same deceased perhaps not, though it’s sure to be subject of some most likely earnest discussion amongst our peers.
I don’t mind at all. I will ask for the information and get back to you.
It is interesting that no one has even thought about the riddles in the poem. “Over the shoulder of the flaming foal” I recall was one of them and “The death of the 10 berries.” They are only two of the riddles that I can recall..There were a lot of them and the coded message which was the last communication is decoded in that book that I mentioned. The attempts by others to break the code is laughable. You will understand soon and the evidence to solve the murder is in the coded message and the name of the ship involved that was transporting Nazis into Australia…I think it was Jestyn that was also nurse/nanny to some people whose children disappeared…I will have to go back over the massive research papers that the author has.
I had a copy of the poem I purchased in a junk shop in Yreka some 30 years ago. It’s cover was snake skin and is a handmade book that has so much more information and editions in it. I gave it to the author who used it in discovering the code.
Before I close, the man who found the copy of the ROK in his back seat was a chemist…and everything was staged. The poison was digitalis or glucocide. The Marshall case was the one with the body of the Malasian Pm’s brother I believe on the beach w/ROK . Jestyn’s cousin was the suspect in the disappearance of the children on the beach. There is a connection to the assassination of one of Truman’s cabinet members. That’s all I could get from a quick call to the author. I did tell the author about your website and encourage a look/see…meanwhile the author is texting me to point to the following https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White and also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project There is so much more
more later
Zac: The Marshall case actually did not involve a beach death or it seems, either one of the potions you mention; nor did the apparent suicide victim have a bro that was PM of Malasia (sic); pethaps you mean Dave Marshal, the Chief Minister of Singapore in the mid ’50s and founded the socialist workers party. Jestyn ‘Jessica’ Thomson, strangely enough appears only to have had one cousin, a female who must have been over fifty in 1966 when the kiddies were abducted near a beach. Perhaps you refer to the older woman (never trusted the bitch) who saw the three children with a man near the grassy knoll at back of the beach pavillion. I do seem to recall a ship that came from England in ’41 with a load of pre documented alien adult male Jews, possibly with some nazi sympathisers amongst them, all of whom were interned, though released fairly promptly. Bar one or perhaps two that we know of, all went on to become knights of the realm and/or billionaires in various highly suspect ventures, since passed into the hands of new generation 4 x 2 relatives and political cronies..With regard to Verona and H.D. White, we don’t handle matters which may have national security implications, however, please feel free to contact our AfIO affiliates at Tamam Shud BS blog site. They are the accredited experts in the field of suspected SM espionage groups and their kindred RSL ultra right wing ‘The Association’ sect cells.
Hi John: I gave you information of a quick phone call. I would have to get the newspaper articles used as reference to give more accurate info…I did (many years ago) read the articles for myself and will go back and reread them as I get a chance. There is more info on the poison but as I said it’s been years.
I went back and read the input of past years of your followers and thoroughly enjoyed it. It brings out the amateur sleuth in me. The author’s focus was on the code and the message and with-in that message a reference to a Dutch ship in the harbor but like I said, I would have to go back and re-read the articles. I am up to my ass in alligators trying to self publish my series. The devil is truly in the details.
Zac: Would you be related by chance to Hannah Marie who disappeared from your notw all those years ago. If so, perhaps you might be able to sneak in an update with your next SM post. Bare in mind, as with most celebrated mysteries from time immemorial, there are bound to be a lot of fake news (now so-called) stories around, so we must endeavor to sort out the wheat from the chaff before daring to venture into the grain store.
John: Yes, as a matter of fact, I am Hannah’s grandmother. We (my family) have suffered so much it’s hard to talk of it. It’s like opening a wound and once you do it consumes you. The people involved in her and the other girl’s disappearance are very dangerous people. The authorities are corrupt and there is no justice for Hannah or the other girl. I wish cold case people would pick up the banner and lead the charge but I don’t think it will happen. Hannah is in Heaven and I will see her again. God has a perfect way of exposing the truth and bringing justice to those people. I am surprised that you know of the case…I assumed that you were in Australia or Europe. One last word. Yes there is so much evidence overlooked and ignored by the authorities…to this day…We are constantly pointing out new leads to the authorities but it gets ignored in favor of covering what really happened and who was involved. It goes very high up.
Have anyone tried to Book cipher decryption? Consists in retrieving the word corresponding to the number and extracting the latter or only its first letter.
Tried this, but I’m new to it, but found some interesting things in my first try. Also need to try with different editions.
Wanna give it a try Pete?
I mean someone… 🙂
(ABC) Radio National is broadcasting some sort of Somerton Man podcasts (I don’t think they’re new) on Saturdays (repeated in the wee hours of Sunday). Had a brief look on their site, and it appears that you an stream them too (although I haven’t tried):
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/somerton-man-mystery/the-strange-case-of-the-body-on-the-beach/11517516
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/somerton-man-mystery/a-poetry-book-clue-and-an-elusive-young-woman/11517556
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/somerton-man-mystery/a-case-of-disguised-identity/11517568
And I think a separate broadcast:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/the-history-listen/somerton-man/9488102
One more try: Somerton man was a refugee from the encampment of the scientists which were developing TWO bombs which were aimed at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. You ALL can get much more information from the “White Sands” museum
bdid1dr
aka: Bobette Miller-Shackelford-Douglas
@ All Somerton-man solvers
I just took this up last night and this code here looks like a vigenere cipher, but the code is fragmented about 3 times (meaning you have to decode pieces of it three times with the vigenere cipher. Input this and then use the automatic button NOT (Tamam shud) it does not produce anything so don’t bother: BONFOS is an anagram of “OONBSF” at the end before the letter I!
Senona is a female name meaning lively. Maybe the Someton man’s name was Sean. Also if you overdose on Bonefos your stomach can be highly irritated before death.
This is the line I decoded from the cipher:
[OF IT HOW AS AND I AND TO SENONA SEAN DI N THI NAUGHTISH BONEFOS (BONFOS) I]
WRGOABABD
MLIAOI
WTBIMPANETP
MLIABOAIAQC
ITTMTSAMSTGAB
Overdose from bonefos:
Never take more than the prescribed dose. If you suspect that you or someone else might have taken an overdose of this medicine, go to the accident and emergency department of your local hospital at once. Take the container with you, even if it is empty.
This medicine is for you. Never give it to other people even if their condition appears to be the same as yours.
Do not keep out-of-date or unwanted medicines. Take them to your local pharmacy which will dispose of them for you.
If you have any questions about this medicine ask your pharmacist.
https://patient.info/medicine/sodium-clodronate-bonefos-clasteon-loron-520
https://www.dcode.fr/vigenere-cipher
I think he was trying to get medical help and was fustrated by the system. He wanted to keep some notes on things that were frustrating him, anbd (forever reason) didn’t want to write them out in full.
Perhaps it went something like this:
What Really Goes On Always Becomes A Big Debacle.
Waiting Times Beyond Imagination. Medicals, Pharmacy, And Now Emergency Theatre Procedures
Many Live In A Blur Of Aching Illness. Am Quite Concerned
It Took Twenty Minutes To See A Medical Specialist Tonight (GAB)
“BAB” to me potentially leaps out with potential for things like:
Bed and Breakfast/Board
Bread and Butter
I suspect it would attact the wrong types of cranks (like me, if I were down Adelaide that way in May), but…..
get together at Somerton Beach to discuss things
https://www.facebook.com/events/2822261094476289/
I’m not sure who the ultimate organiser is (it comes through an SA FB entity called ‘History Helper’….
Meet you at the door, I’ll be the bloke wearing striped trousers.
Peteb: These stripes an chains are bound to drag you down ifn you don’t get back to craven haven fairly sharply and take care of business. Your new @ expletive newby has you over a hoop and extraction is gonna be difficult unless your stalking can’t be put on hold for a bit y’hear. Want some help with the Hindley St. Calabrian mob deal give us a hoy; milongal an I can set you straight seeing we covered it in depth a couple of seasons back on ‘Adelaide ads’ right here.
The bottom line of the code page contains anagrams of “noon, Saturday” in German (“Samstag Mittag”).
For a moment, I hoped line 3 contained plaintext “Paket” (German for “parcel”). But it does look more like an “N” than a “K”.
@ cekpeth… ….. I’ts no secret Secret, your German code page suggestion is somewhat dated and your “N” & “K” confusion suggests a Crylic input. Peteb seems to have taken a shine to you though (for the time being) and needs some fawning suggestions for his groundbreaking Melbourne black-hand, Prosper Thomson car re-birth lurk. Whip across and give the old groomer a back hander from me and bring him up to speed on Hugh Pozza, the mile high ‘family man’ from Harlem if you’d be so kind.
An additional grand new theiry taking hold is that T.Keane was in all probability an American 4 F military exemptee taking part in the pacific islands camaign of WW2 serving in the rag tag Macarthur Small Ships supply force, a most admirable deed indeed. It now seems that somewhere during his tour of duty, ‘Somerton man’ got to cover and impregnate Jo Harkness through having been introduced by an island hopping buddy Alf Boxall….A grand scheme which must have taken a good deal of thought by a genius or two; unfortunately the supporting brains trust omitted to point out one or two miner impediments to the plan that many others would have glossed over as well. Although operation X, as it was called by it’s American co-founders around ’42, the rag tag fleet was almost entirely Antipodian in make up and it’s crews also non American contractors paid by Uncle Sam. The other two areas of doubt relate to the necessary human interactions and logistical linkage problems eminating from time constraints. By the end of 1943 the need for such an auxillary force had been superceeded by the rapidly expanding U.S. military machine and the time Alf Boxall set off aboard the good ship ACV Crusader on his PNG/Solomons post war military recovery work at the tail end of 1945, Operation X was ancient history. By the same token it would have also been way too late for one of the middle aged gallant contract seamen to get that all important meeting with Alf’s quietly spoken young ‘French’ nurse back in peacetime Sydney.
Some suggestions above assume that the code is written by/for John Doe. But is this a fair assumption to make?
Conjecture: given that there are two parts of the book that have been separated, we might posit that – together – they form a recognition code. Just like Otto and Claus Kretschmar in Le Carré’s ‘Smiley’s People’ (where a postcard is used).
If this is so, then it appears that it was John Doe in possession of Tamam Shud slip. NOT the book. That would have been with the other party.
If this is so, then the book, with its code page, may never have been in the possession of John Doe.
The implications for acrostic solutions and other approaches (yes, micro-writing and all) would be to not look at connections to the deceased, but to the other party?
Perhaps this is another “dated” point to make? But that wouldn’t bother me.
Cekpeth….There are just too many presumptions about every single aspect of this case most of which is based on the prolification of rubbery physical evidence. The little W & T ROK volume with it’s nefariously detached slip, phone numbers, coded message, personal links to cars and people are far from assured is a fair example. This along with all the continuing run off concocted hearsay on TV since 1978 for our pure entertainment but which most will have taken on board as being the absolute truth, without the slightest validification. Readings from authors like Feltus have of late lost their credibility because of deliberate factual errors, and other fantastic furphys of espionage links, auto theft and a host of other grand schemes that have taken over worthwhile discussion to the point of almost total distraction….welcome to our world.
When Prosper’s old dad Ernest Chalmers Muir-Thomson turned 80 in 1947, he sold the mansion at Neutral Bay, divested himself of his accumulated wealth by way of splitting it up between his living children and retired to the coast up Gosford way to spend his remaining eight years in relaxed comfort. If His second son over Glenelg came into money at about that time we don’t have to look much further than opportune family gratuities, this as opposed to hand outs from the stingy Melbourne racketeers. Had that not been of ample sufficiency, then the filthy rich Duffield squatocracy, with whom he was said to be fairly tight at around the time, would have likely chipped in. Sorry if that offends alternate nefarious reasoning attempts by some whose own assumed family wealth creativity in later years should have tweeked a nerve or two.
WRGO(durk) A(i) BABDW(piped) TBI(opt) MPAN(nail) ETPML (joans or moans) IAB(tip) OAI(kit)AQC (ivy) ITTM(toon) TS(of) AMST(info) GAB(rip)
NickP: Does your image of V70 show the same grey smears on the characters similar to the pic Cramer obtained from Abbott? I think it’s on one of his recent posts.
Peteb: I think I’ve made my position on Gordon’s supposed micro-writing abundantly clear over the years. His recent posts on Verse 70 are in no obvious sense any different to the rest of his stuff. It’s just noise + imagination.
I know that, but in this instance he appears to be accusing Derek Abbott of manipulating an image. My beef with Cramer is that anyone new to the game who uses google images for an introduction to the case will be overcome by the bloody volume of his images. The bloke’s everywhere.
So, do you have an image of V70 with fair dinkum provenance? And can I please have a squiz at it? Ta.
Peteb: I think I posted the best V70 image I have back in 2013: http://ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2013/12/jestyn.jpg
Nick: I think we’re dealing with a case somewhat more extreme than “…. just noise + imagination” it being far too lenient choice of words in Gordon’s case. Let’s face it the man has a compusion to lie, having no use for prissy social norms like the moral obligation to tell the truth. He cares not one iota when caught out lieing (sociopathic indifferenc); and as for being imaginative, I do agree though in his case, it goes hand in hand with straight out skulduggery at a scale well beyond imagination.
Lovely stuff: you’re a true gent.
@Nick @Pete @Sanders
For the record then, specifically with regard to the grey markings on the v70 image that Gordon is claiming as evidence of subterfuge, what do you think they are ?
1) Figments of his imagination? (though there are grey marks on his images and there is some evidence of grey marks on the v70 image post you link to above)
2) Fabricated entirely or enhanced by Gordon?
3) Image processing or scanning artifacts?
4) Evidence that third parties have tampered with the image?
Where do you stand on his claim of essentially lossless re-imaging of the original document, in particular with regard to uncovering micro-writing concealed beneath markings made on an original photograph that were then photographed?
Like poor condescended-to ‘Omnibus’, I’m also no expert in documentary Forensics like Commissioner Gordon claims he is (though I suspect his certificate was issued by the Trump University), so I’m asking around for second and third opinions.
Also, does ‘Clive’ exist?
Gordon Cramer has not only positively identified the Somerton Man, he has interpreted the code and established the true nature of the relationship between Boxall and Harkness.
Clive Walker does exist and his support for Cramer has never wavered, he has interviewed Paul Lawson and appears to be a better than most researcher.
@ Tammy Shud: The existence or non existence of Gordon Cramer’s numerous subterfugal team of non entities is mostly dependant on the manner in which he intends to use their respective ineptnesss to better accent his own professional accreditations. In the case of Clive, his subservient modest and polite manner along with an unusual loyalty elevates his status to that of the most trustworthy stalking horse in the Cramer unstable stable. Unlike his other bunch of imbecilic clones, all created of course to enhance an expertise far and above their own very limited subject knowledge. There are for instance non entities like Redacted, Etienne, Matt, Kinbru, Russian Kate and now ‘An Omnibus’ along with the usual bevy of Anonymous posters. These are occasionally supported by some actual soviet era entities who occasionally swing by to bolster support for the TS/BS espionage theory. I find it incredulous that Gordon is able to use their bylines so long as certain rules on factual content are adhered to…To answer your specific question; Clive does appear to be somewhat of a contradiction, partly fact and partly fiction. I recall looking up a certain teenaged Clive Turner, son of an ex London bobby arriving in Adelaide with his family in the sixties who may or may not be our Clive.
Speaking of crooks and charlatans, if anybody be at all interested in the mysterious Glenelg pub patron with the pension card in the name Solomonson, I did get hold of him eventually and might have given the details to ‘anemptyglass’ just before the Cramer hostile take over and resultant record culling…Although disappointed I still wish him well…llke hell !
Maybe I got it all wrong; according to Peteb, Gordon’s gopher is Clive Walker and not Turner which I always assumed was his real handle. Could I have confused him with the likes of Luke Sky Walker, Max Walker the cricketer, Rev. Alan Walker the God botherer, Mr. Walker the Phantom (Ghost who walks) or perhaps Christopher Walker the actor, or is that Walken; Who knows it’s all so long ago and far away.
John Sanders: I think you’ll find it was Luke Skywalker who was far, far away.
The apparent grey areas in the v70 image? Nick, you’ve done image processing algorithms IIRC? Care to suggest causes other than tampering? We ought to do Gordon the service of plausible alternatives to his conspiracy theory at least.
Tammy Shud: what does it matter what I think? When I posted different scans of the code page that – when taken together – conclusively proved that it contained not so much as a dot of microwriting, nothing changed.
Same thing applies here: the correct observation to make about the different scans/photos taken of the Verse 70 page is that they all – when taken together – prove that there is not one dot of microwriting there either.
But instead we get treated to a load of spiel about how the differences prove there’s a conspiracy of people covering stuff up. Right.
Spare me, O Lord, from all this pseudoscientific b.s. dressed in a forensic f&£#ing frock.
What’s in a name?.Whether it be Turner or Walker is a mute point in terms of the put question, …does ‘Clive’ exist? . On the face of it he certainly does appear to be real enough, his posts displaying perfectly acceptable commentary and I can’t recall hi ever yaving creating any divisions within his particular spheres of input; in other words a hail fellow well met by all accounts…Therein lies the big caution which may be best exemplified by a great old yarn we can easy relate to in the form of the R.L. Stephenson’s Unusual Case Dr. Jeckle & Mr. Hyde. No need for any reminder on how crossover dual personality traits in one demented mind had the ability to create both harmony and mahem on call, with ability to fool the best police minds of the day. So why not a similar modus operandi in our equally unusual Tamam shud investigation; in this instance the theme being cultivated in the warped troubled mind of Gordon Cramer so as to best counter his own many failings. Simply achieved by creating in his own image an invisable fault free alter ego character in the form of lovable ‘Clive’ who has ability to be independant on innocuous trivialities ie. like Adelaide ads, whilst adhering resolutely to his masters voice in all the other important essentials…..There you have it, I’ll let you decide.
On 5th December ’48 it was reported in the Advertiser that a convalessing digger from Kapara Red Cross home in Moseley St. Glenelg had recently met a chap in a local pub who looked like the beach body photo, the gent having shown him some military card with the name Solomonson? displayed thereupon..end of item. As far as I know, nothing ever came from this line of inquiry over the years which seems to hint of police incompetence at the time, and others like we for not following up.
John de la Fargue Salomonson, aged 38 arrived in Adelaide aboard the Mooltan out of Tilbury on 24th September ’48 along with his wife Aubrey as Immigrants, the couple giving 33 King Street (off Sth Esplinade), Nth Brighton as their intended place of abode. What then became of them who knows, although it probably went contrary to the S.A. Crimes Act (sans official secrets), John the con man having passed away without fanfare at St. Kilda Vic. in 1964 and leaving no records with Melbourne cemeteries nor Wills & Probate; likewise Aubrey though I confess to not giving it much time.
In 1942 Private John Salomonson deserted from the Hamshire Regiment of foot and began a series of flim flam operations whilst on the run, mainly involving deceptions of gullible people (reminds me of someone close by) to extract quite a healthy sum. Eventually his luck ran out and doubly so; doing four years in the slot for his dishonesty, then being forced into undesired transportation to the colonies as penalty for his dishonour. I’d say old John ‘of the forge’ Salomonson is our man and that being said let’s put him to bed.
‘Whomesoever is detected in a shameful fraud is ever after not believed even if they speak the truth’….That’s another little gem for Gordon’s, self serving claims to superior perception, as depicted in his recent quote from Phaudrus a Greek fish’n chip restaurateur posted on the BS/TS site by..you guessed it Anonymous.
Tammy Shud: A few lines from the pen of Gordon Cramer relating to a William Jestyn Moulds who was his prime suspect for Verse 70 and the Jestyn sign off from late 2018 and which kept us amused for most of the following year..The following passage taken from is site might attend somewhat to the relevancy to your query.
“Verse 70 was in my opinion signed and quite probably written in its entirety by Major William Jestyn Moulds. Every word in the verse…This is a copy of the verse to which until recently was believed to have been written by Jo Harkness, the nurse before she handed it to Alf Boxall…A LITTLE FADED BUT LOOK WHAT A FEW ENHANCEMENTS CAN DO.” …..NB: Major Moulds with the handy middle name was likely sussed by aka Clive, who saw potential with Jestyn’ and he is given much of the credit for the input content over the following months. Why the hoaxers might assume that anyone but Peteb & Co. would not see through the ruse from the onset is beyond belief.
Peteb: I ask you and Gordon too; What self respecting agent/spy would pack his kit for the next mission to Adelaide, include his Kiwi tan boot polish but forget to toss in his brushes..On second thoughts, bearing in mind that SM’s cheap brogues had been given a good shine at the beach not that long before his demise, perhaps it was the soviet wardrobe/clean-up crew who were negligent by failing to return them to the suitcase.. PS. Phaedrus and his misspelling of ‘Whomsoever’ is only to be expected from a Greek cafe prop. attempting to emulate an oracle like Plato.
You have to admit, Cramer doesn’t do good plots.
A good plot might not keep a maggot like that down, but a cesspit would work, so long as the old crook was good and dead before being tossed in.
I’m sure many have wondered as I have, but not put it directly to the man himself, as I most certainly have..Gordon’s man Friday Clive is always there to play a major role in BS/TS special projects and during various directly reported phases of the multi thread postings he is subsequehtly praised to the rafters for his solid game changing efforts e.g. the three interviews with centenarian Paul Lawson who told him about the Jessica & Alf Boxall’s deep cover Sydney Harbour ship counting activities. When reporting as Anonymous which includes a curious Clive sign off, his comments are in the usual first person verbatum style, whilst all his special ops work is prepared and edited by the boss for publication. Of course no answers have been given as to reasoning behind such a method and even if there had been, truth would not likely to be part of it.
@Tammy Shud…Gorgon is quite correct (for once); in that my post of 15th inst. was indeed taken from three episodes of mostly trash from his year long unfounded accusations of espionage made against a highly respected Australian WW2 army officer, all due to his middle name appearing on the supposedly enhanced added Verse 70 passage on the flyleaf of the Boxall ROK. Cramer insists that said Major William JESTYN Moulds OBE was in the same unit as Alf which is a felacious claim based on his perception that both were in the Corps of Engineers, est. wartime strength 80000 and 200 sub units.
For some weird reason Cramer points to some foul act of deception on my part, all due to my post comprising examples of his own shady maneuvres taken from a series of related texts of his pertaining to the same subject, my aim being only to form a readable compellation of the rather long winded story line content. With appropriate divisions separating each exerpt to show the spirit of fairness, there can’t therefore be much doubt. You’ll see that the upper case passage, being the main thrust of my epistle is that to which the others relate, hence their inclusion and to distinguish them.
FWIW AFAIK (insert more acronyms) the Blogspot site defaults to “Anonymous” if you don’t pick a monicker….
From memory, there was a time when GC seemed to think all Anonymous entries came from a single person cleverly choosing Anonymous – so when one post from Anonymous scratched the wrong way we connected every Anonymous together (or something) – So from that perspective it’s a bit odd that the Clive stuff is normally Anonymous.
I think even more recently (sort of: I only visit there VERY sporadically now, so recent = “last time” = possibly some months ago) Clive no longer comments, just “emails” in the background and irt’s included in the main post…
Clive’s comments were automatically authored by ‘anonymous’ on Cramer’s site … But he signed off on them as Clive.
He’s done me more than a few research favours in his time, and his interest in the case goes back further than most.
I’m trying to figure then how come just about every incoming post to BS/TS, not forgetting that Mr. Cramer resolutely refuses to entertain undesirables with certain types of common folk accounts like my gmail. This is most assuredly why the majority of his posters either come on specifically to praise the great pretender or else to mildly dispute some element of his last post which of course is anticipated and ready to counter. Most would know by now from manner of speech, word choice, punctuation etc. that Cramer is in the majority of Anonymous cases merely responding to his very own Dorothy Dixers. The man gives the game away when the ‘Hi Gordon, Hi Clive’ salutations are then exchanged; which must cause most visitors to his spy only site to cringe, hearing old phonies greet that way.
Some weeks back, in answer to a query from milongal which I responded to in a fairly succinct manner no less, regarding the two Tamam Shud slips presented in evidenced at the inquest, one by Constable Moss, exhibit C3 (f), the other by Det. Brown C9, I naturally expected some sort of feed back. I’m wondering now whether anyone else picked up on it and is in a position to make comment as to how this anomally, if that’s what it was, might have gone by the wayside baring in mind it’s key relevance in the investigation.
One particular research favour that comes to mind courtesy of Clive, was the introduction of Major William Moulds the alleged Verse 70 conspiracy mastermind that had some people chasing their tales on groundless frivolous pusuit for the best part of a year. Call that a favour and you can count me out Peteb, I got better things to occupy my time including meaningful investigations that are more likely to close this case.
@Sanders I can’t find reference to an Exhibit C3(f) in the 1949 inquest record. I’m using the PDF from Prof Abbott’s site. Can you point me to the mention?
C1 (f) and not C3 (f) an error for which I apologise Rob. It was last of the 6 exhibit inclusions for items associated with the body and the accompanying Moss deposition.
@Sanders
Maybe I’m being stupid or I’m looking at an incomplete version, but on the scan on the Uni Adelaide site, there appears only to be reference to exhibit c1 in its entirety, not itemised using letters a, b, c etc.
C1 is referred to as a “packet” containing items that Constable Moss refers to in his deposition. But unless I’m mistaken, none of these appear to be the “slip” or indeed any piece of paper. In fact, his deposition explicitly states that he did not find the “slip” at the time of his search.
I can’t find reference to C1a, b, c, etc. But the list that precedes the statement that the items are in a packet referred to as C1 are: rail ticket, bus ticket, packet of cigarettes, comb, chewing gum, metal comb.
All this is on page 21 of the Uni Adelaide scan of the 1949 inquest report.
Am I looking in the right place?
No Tammy you’re not being stupid. Just keep looking and you’ll find it right there beneath page 44. Be mindful that the other TS slip C9 is listed as ‘piece of paper’, however in Brown’s deposition he makes no doubting it’s nature and meaning.
Peteb: While we’re in search and destroy mode, give us the guts on your version of Cleland’s first finding of the slip on 19/4/49 if you’d be so kind, your old threads are deleted. I note first mention in the Advertiser 10/6/49 which equates to what old Browny told Stuart and the only other relevant mention in the rags is regarding C. Mikkelson developing a thing for Verse 75 but that was not known until 23/4/53. …Sorry to pour cold water on your latest Feltus thread, but you really musn’t take too much of what Gerry says as being reliable. For the umpteenth time, Detective R.L. Leane only held a substantive rank in 1949 and was not gazetted as having qualified for Sgt. until ’50 so take my word or his, that’s what choice is all about. Similarly Len Brown was gazetted detective in October of ’48, so as you can see, or in your case as you please, the SM squad was hardly a dream team by any stretch. Anyhow your latest is interesting enough, just a pity about shaky facts. I am neither disappointed in you, nor do I feel need to wish you or others well whilst on the job.
OK, I think we must be looking at different things. I am looking at the pdf ocr scan of the 49 inquest, as presented on Abbott’s Uni Adelaide page. In the scan, Moss’s deposition’s mention of the articles found on the body and the reference to them being “put in” to evidence as a “packet” is on page 21. The original pagination (top of each page of the original document) is shown as “4”. On this page, there is no mention of a slip of paper or of the items individually listed by Moss being given separate references such as C1a, b, c, etc. The page is signed at the bottom by both Moss and the Coroner.
The next page – marked on the original as page 5, thus suggesting there are no omitted pages in the scanned document – starts with Edmund Leslie Hall’s testimony regarding the bus ticket. Although the ticket is mentioned in this testimony, it is not specifically referred to as an item in packet C1 or as an individual part of C1, e.g. as C1a, b, c, etc.
I’m wondering if you are looking at a different version: when you refer to “page 44”, do you mean the original pagination (not the scanned PDF )? In Abbott’s scan, page 44 of the original (which is page 101 of the PDF) is the final page of content (there’s a blank page 102, which is consistent with the rest of the document, suggesting a double-sided scan was performed).
Is there a page (or more) missing from Abbott’s scan? If so, can you (or anyone else who has seen it) point me toward a complete version of the document?
A slip of paper with the words Taman Shud (sic) at C1 (f) and above the tooth chart taken directly from Derek’s on line AU site is about the all I can do for you Tammy. Sorry if I can’t be more helpful. js
According to S.A. geneology there are 556 entries for the surname Loveday and it seems that Paul Lawson made claims that one of that lot, found miniture writing of some description somewhere as opposed to Adelaide CIB. Sure tells us a lot, especially when said remark was indeed afterall, according to the verbatum text, “Now I Have a question for you” not posed as a question in any manner or form. Gordon Cramer would have us believe that old Paul’s use of the very word Loveday must have been inference to clandestine plottings and brewings within one or more of the Loveday trustee work camps ala the Hay camp bank note farce, which likely had nought to do with Paul Lawson’s proposition. Reason being it was put forward as spin to play along Clive the not so wiley ferret, who didn’t see through the lark and reported his windfall to the boss.
@Sanders OK, so the tooth chart is not present in Abbott’s scan of the 48 inquest doc. There is a paper parcel/luggage tag type document present in Abbott’s scan of the 58 inquest document. It has a hand-sketched diagram of the teeth on page 115 (of the scan – these annex pages have no original numbering, except ‘C’ references… this one’s C8). The item above (preceding) is a body photograph. The item below (following) is a photograph of the plaster bust. Nowhere in these annexes can I find reference to C1f. Moss’s deposition toward the beginning of the doc appears exactly the same as in the 48 document. No reference to a paper lip in the “packet” put in as C1.
Is there a way you, or anyone else (@Peteb?), can show that this reference exists? I’m perplexed by these inquest docs. We seem to be looking at different versions? That makes me suspicious… can we trust the “source material”.
Another issue I’m not understanding here: What Abbott describes on his site as the 1958 document (download filename: inquest1958.pdf) features nothing that is identifiably from 1958, but is rather an extended version of the 1948 scan, including a few annexes. Again… am I looking at the wrong thing here?
Sorry to bang on about this… but it’s all a bit odd. Par for the course, as one says?
@pozhaluysta OK, lets move forward and do it this way; Dial up Google and tap in Tamam Shud Inquest which should, if there’s a spirit if fairness left in this cruel old world, bring up Derek’s AU page of 0711 May 25, 2009 with it’s ’49 inquest prompt and Robert’s your uncle’s not so stupid nephew. Good hunting js
@Sanders – OK, got it! Thanks. I had been looking at the scans here:
http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/wiki/index.php/Primary_source_material_on_the_Taman_Shud_Case
This is all a bit weird, though. The pages you refer to contain the text of the inquest report. I assume it’s been copy-typed or (given the file names of the scan document I had been looking at) that optical character recognition has been used to render the original text in a digital form. This would not preclude it being edited after processing.
But, the scan docs do not contain these references to c1a b, c etc. (which I’ve banged on about ad nauseam already, sorry). And they also don’t contain some features of the digitised version, e.g. the questions asked by Cleland to each witness.
Odd.
But the upshot is: yes, you’re clearly right. There are two mentions in the digitised version of the text. At c1f we have a slip of paper marked Taman Shud. At c9 we have “a slip of paper”.
But the mention at c1f is inconsistent with both the original doc (scan) and the digitised text. Both list the contents of the packet “put in” as exhibit c1. And this does not contain a slip of paper (with or without any reference to Taman Shud).
I think we need to see a source document that shows that c1a, b, c etc. are genuine references made at the time of the inquest. Otherwise, the suspicion must remain that this is an error or a bit of interpretative license taken by Abbott or his students.
Always thought there was somethng rotten in Renmark but never considered, that it all may have eminated from suspicions of duplicity against a certain founding member of the so called ‘Inner sanctum’ club, the same imposter later receiving similar short shrift by his determined attempts to undermine Derek Abbott’s TS face book investigation a decade ago. Not only had this imposter posed as a former Brit detective with twenty homicide briefs under his belt, but also boasted a solid grounding in soviet cold war era intelligence, talents of which he was found to have picked up on a Virginia based research website for a hundred bucks annual subscription. Of course the deceiver was found to be totally deficient in these or any other worthwhile talents and word soon got out to steer well clear of this artful dodger. Due mainly to his audacity and cunning this predator subsequently found his nitch in country art market stalls selling fake heraldic trinkets and ingenuine minature spy writing samples, which to his shameful discredit he is rather talented thus able to fool even himself some of the time.
Slow day, thought I’d take of the old tosser’s tip and check Browny’s ’87 quote to Derek regarding the Thomson telephone number in ‘very tiny lettering’ beneath some code lines on the cover of the (Freeman) ROK…which he only saw briefly some time after it’s aquisition. As Derek wanted to say but didn’t, long retired Leonard Brown did not seem to have a good memory for historical detail so we might treat much of what he said including with caution e.g. according to Brown, Gordon Stripes (sic) & Olive Neill spotted SM whilst sitting? in a parked car…For those interested Derek found the phone number along side and below the letter ‘P’ of the code, then just recently eagle eyed Gorgon spotted yet another, a super macro/micro version of the same number on the outjutting arm of a dark stain at top right of the page. To get a better perspective on all this and nothing more, I’d recommend checking out the Matthew D. Hall specially set up single objective site on Ciphermysties 24/10/18 and be sure not to miss the special well done comment (to himself of course) of even date from the devious ‘tosser’ himself.
In re Carl Von Czarnecki, for anyone interested in my SM contender of a few weeks back, by now they should have perused the open related NAA files, also noting presence of others in the category that have not been depatmentally examined. My back door efforts to explore these have not been rewarded which is frustrating for I’m sure that amongst these files a passport photo and fingerprint classification are to be found. I am now chasing up a short 56 page book from 1996 with the subject’s trade & calling mentioned in the title ie., L……. Demystified & Two German Rouseabouts, which includes photos from pre war but online avaiability is iffy.
A couple or three little errors, if that’s what they are, BS/TS can fix-up before the new ‘an omnibus’ creation gets wind of them. Both Cramer and Bowes seem to be alike in their belief that police escorted Alf Boxall from his workplace to his address 27/7/49? , purpose being to check out his ROK which did not happen. Also Jessie Thomson perhaps the day before, was taken to view Paul Lawson’s SM bust which apparently was not to her liking, however there is no record of her having viewed the body itself as Gordon would have us believe. Today’s mistake concerns the WW2 Catalina base at Rathmines NSW, which Gordon has chosen to place at Port Macquarie which is a city 270 Kms to the north. He did not thankfully fall into the same trap with his old Boga Lake blunder and folks that have been there since will affirm, it’s still not ‘a pleasant part of the country’ .
Hello, gentlemen (and ladies) here might be a circus contender. WWII military records turn up a 6 foot tall Virginian born in 1904 who was working for Ringling Bro’s. and B and B. He was previously a patient in Mental Health Facility and he seems to disappear from the record after 1947. Harry Gray Baxter. Not quite fitting the Rule of Three I go by, but he’s the best I could find so far.
@Tamamologist … any way of placing him in Australia?
Tamamologist: would that be the Harry Gray Baxter of 1937 Calvert Street, born in Pulaski VA in 1904, graduated from the University of Tennessee School of Pharmacy, a druggist in Virginia who moved to Washington in 1945, wife Elizabeth Baxter, son Stewart, and who died on 31st August 1948 after falling down stairs while visiting a nearby friend?
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1948-09-02/ed-1/seq-4/
Yes, Nick, that would be him. Thanks, since I have time now and, you may be happy to know, I haven’t exhausted the search in the military records for circus performers or dancers, at least not outside of Virginia. Maybe I should keyword-search “tightrope walkers”! Is six foot too tall?
The army had Baxter with blue eyes instead of grey. I wasn’t sure how accurate they’d be with the eye color and I think eye color can change. However, the military records appear to be very accurate. I guess that’s for positive identification in case of death.
Would TSM’s “close cousin” match, Julian Randolph
Pleasants’ mother, Miss Mary Josephine (she went by Josephine) ne. Mathias of Westminster, Maryland b. 1887, be this Josephine Mathias listed as a ballet dancer at a carnival ball in Westminster in 1900. (Pop. 3200)
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038292/1900-01-27/ed-2/seq-3/#date1=1789&index=0&rows=20&words=Ballet+Mathias&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=Maryland&date2=1946&proxtext=mathias+ballet&y=15&x=14&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
Her brother would be William Augustus Mathias, uncle of TSM’s known “close cousin” match. An uncle would be closer than a first cousin. That relation might show up in the results of the exhumation. He may be 64 and supposedly died of a heart attack in Kingman, Arizona, July 7, 1948, but he’s the closest match among the known and legitimate relatives.
Relative and circumstantial matches/evidence
-Height (given as 6’1″ in 1942)
-Hair color “mixed gray”
-non hands-on physical labor work (election worker, census taker, company proprietor, civil engineer, lumber manager…}
-same close cousin/uncle relationship to TSM’s close cousin DNA match
-amateur ballet connection (sister)
-1914/15 (Mathias/Fowler) newspaper articles perhaps suggesting he’s gay (recall high heels theory for his calves)
-wife (second) went to Australia in 1920
-WM initials for possible morse code prosign “Source” in cipher
I’m not really following the Rachel Egan male line DNA research, but I have to say it strikes me as presumptive in the extreme to eliminate anybody based on the fact that they were alive after 1948.
Follow the evidence wherever it leads, I say.
I guess you mean “include anyone based on the fact they disappear after 1948”. But I understand the philosophy. I’ve seen it before.
It means, in cases like these, you have to follow the science rather than get ahead of it using the usual “scientific method” and have a “working hypothesis” or in this case “working candidate”. Personally, I can’t rest without having a “working candidate” which I equate to a hypothesis.
Quite honestly Tammy, apart from a much celebrated positive identification on the long sought family crime syndicate connection behind Prosper Thomson apropos his long association with the notorious Burch Bros. of Scott City Kansas, I had no idea that the name might take on a new life with DNA matches to TSM candidates. I’m with Pelling for once in following evidentiary leads where they point, after all who am I to critisise what I’ll never likely understand.
The Burch Bros. were beside the point although I believe the “Birch tree” helped prove which branch of the Pleasant/Brady family TSM was most likely on. Not all trees online are conveniently connected because not even the relatives know where they connect.
As for evidentiary value, the Egan DNA is the best evidence IMO, short of an exhumation. It is not really a “male line” or Y-DNA test but a “father’s line” (RT’s line) DNA test with the mother’s (JT’s) line excluded. So I don’t believe I’m in error by jumping to a great grandmother and looking at a great uncle on RT’s cousin’s side.
From my reading of the published tree (and I’ve been at this kind of thing for 14 years), the DNA match started with a “whole lot” of “4th cousin” matches of Rachel Egan. Those are still considered close cousin matches.
I mean if I didn’t known my paternal grandfather, I’d have no problem finding him on Ancestry Family Tree through my “4th cousins” in the US. I can just go straight to my 4th cousin DNA matches and then go up and down the available trees (however it’s not the case with my direct maternal side which was not there before my Tree).
There nothing so far to say which is the case with TSM, either way. The only difference is that it’s not the genealogist’s job to pick him out of the tree. The best I ever heard a genealogist do in a cold case was narrow it down to two brothers. At best here, it’s narrowed down to half a dozen uncles and close first cousins. The exhumation will likely clear it up with unquestioned “close family” matches so I guess I’ll just follow that.
Doey: do you have a link to the published tree online? It’s not something I’ve been following closely.
Everything’s all fine and dandy, so long as one can be absolutely certain that the original SMS bust hair samples were valid. I’m not so confident of the sourse as most others seem to be, call me a party pooper Doey and I’ll own it.
Yes nick, here it is on phys.org. Note that Alban Pleasants and Mary Mathias only had one son that lived to adulthood, according to the son’s obituary and the family trees.
https://phys.org/news/2015-06-years-forensic-somerton-identity-mystery_1.html
https://www.palmerfuneralhomes.com/obituary/DrJulian-Pleasants
P.S. It does look like they were going by Y-DNA as it tracks the male line to Thomas Jefferson’s grandfather, but the article says they were using autosomal DNA from Rachel Egan with her mother’s DNA sequence subtracted from the result (so Roma Egan not JT her grandmother like I said above). They are just highlighting the relationship to Thomas Jefferson through the male line.
PSS I ruled out Mrs. Julian Randolph Pleasants (Mary Jane Brady) after searching her tree and when I saw all yourself I believe and others keying on the Pleasants and then saw all the Virginians on the Pleasants side which would explain all the Virginia cousin matches.
Doey: thanks for that! I had a quick stroll on familysearch.org through the Pleasants tree, which has actually relative few male family members. And then you get to John Pleasants Jr (1731–1783) [9F9X-179] and his 17 children and you kind of lose the will to continue. 🙁
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9F9X-179
Having said that, John Pleasants Jr’s last son (Joseph Pleasants) is listed as having been born in 1861 (nearly 80 years after his father’s death), so it’s probably wise to be suspicious of what you see there. 🙂
When you go as far up the tree and out on a limb as John Pleasants Jr, you’re looking at ancestors of RE’s possible 6th cousins, which is “distant cousin” territory. That’s when you start doubting the DNA “close cousin” results. My first go around, I did start doubting and went that far up the tree and gave a look at all his descendants on Ancestry. I too gave up.
Second go, I gave the 4th cousin DNA results the another benefit of the doubt, and put away biases regarding age, and keyed on the Swope/Mathias line which merges with the Pleasants, because of my interpretation of john’s input and other reasons. Obviously if the results or conclusions were off by a generation or so, you have a problem because the Swopes were very prolific as well.
Doey: of course, if one sausage goes in the wrong bun, the whole thing collapses. 😉
Yes… I agree as long as we don’t completely neglect a real 6 foot, mixed gray-haired familial match with a ballet dancing sister because of an age estimation based on “expert” eyeball analysis!
Doey: Ida F. Stott 1867/1900 had 16 siblings and married Frank C. Burch of Scott City Kansas, they being parents of my criminal Australian based Burch family that you first ran to the Swope line. I guess I’m way off track, but if the old matriarch and her large gene pool family can help, be my guest.
16 siblings? I only checked on 13….
I’m satisfied though. No more invitations required. If the exhumation proves that TSM is the 8th cousin 5x removed from his granddaughter’s “4th cousin match”, I won’t feel that embarrassed.
A bit of assumed quality information that I had dutifully posted on as IP20 in June but which received no reviews, relates to English born convicted fraudster and Army deserter John de la Farge Salomonson. He was without doubt the man seen drinking in the Glenelg pub on 31st November ’48 who flashed a military pension card in the name of Solomonson to a Kapara convalecent home resident. In the interim I have not been able to confirm that the fellow died in 1964 as is reported by his on line ‘Myheritage’ listing, nor that of his wife Audrey and am wondering if perchance someone with better credentials was able to do so…Something that did come to mind since my initial report is that Kapara was a half way house for war neurosis cases. Keith Mangnoson was thought to be such a patient at Enfield receiving centre between November to January 7th and was known in Glenelg. Also I thought it strange that such a smalltown rag like Singleton Argus would bother reporting on a fairly mundane British fraud conviction case like John Salomonson’s.
@JS: while we’re speculating on Kapara. There was another Red Cross Convalescent home around the corner (in Roberts St). This was the Lady Galway Home, which had recently (1946) moved from Henley Beach (so if we believe there’s a story behind the tickets….).
Minor problem insofar as: “The home was used by returning soldiers of any rank who required, by medical examination, to need a period of rest. The patient was also required to be __free from any infectious or mental disease__”
but I think we could create a nice narrative.
Solomonson is aware of a convalescent home in Henley, and having arrived in Radelaide plans to go there.
Solomonson rings a nurse, who sats “No boi, that one not there anymore, it’s in Glenelg now”
Solomonson goes to Glenelg instead.
(Optionally) Solomonson is told “Oi, dude – you be way too bonkers for this place, try Kapara around the corner”
milongal: Only problem is that my Salomonson was a customer at Broadway hotel Hotel (presumably), just up from Kapara convalescant home in Moseley where the ex AIF police informant was then staying; so that would not seem to fit with your scenario. On a related matter, the old Broadway hotel was quite a distance from the main cyclone storm damage to the shorefront and I’ve been unable to confirm Peteb’s timely yarn that the place was closed for repairs til year’s end. I did find that they closed the bar in July for a day or two when mine host William Allen was accidently killed, though they were certainly open in November when an SP bookie was warned off. Same fella was prosecuted in early ’49 for the same offence and it might be mentioned that Broadway pub was well known amongst the local racing fraternity and other miscreants.
@JS – not sure I understand how that excludes him….
I’m assuming the only Broadway Hotel is the on e on the Broadway near Hastings St (in what was then New Glenelg – apparently opposite the Broadway Toilet Saloon???).
So if we head back to Moseley St Turn Left you get to Kapara. But if we instead turn right onto Moseley, the first Left is Robert St – where the other Red Cross Home was.
This home appears to have been quite strict on not allowing patients with mental illnesses. What I’m suggesting is perhaps Solomonson had intended to go there (to its original location in Henley), but having discovered (e.g. through a phone call to a nurse) that it had moved to Glenelg changed his travel plans. Then having arrived at Lady Galway in Glenelg, was assessed as having mental issues and referred instead to Kapara nearby.
Both homes are roughly equidistant from the Broadway – and in any event I’ll accept he was refused at Galway and still ended up at Kapara.
So I’m not quite following what wouldn’t fit?
(Incidentally, looks like we were talking about this 3 and a half years ago: http://ciphermysteries.com/2012/09/16/the-unknown-man-who-might-be-the-unknown-man-remains-unknown#comment-348990 )
I believe I’ve cracked it
At first, it seems the message was supposed to start off this way: “Emzkin in wry (or pry) fink f…”, but realizing that the N in ‘fink’ was missing, it was scratched.
WRGOAB = EMZKIN
AB = IN
DML = WRY (or PRY)
IAOI= FIK (N missing) F….
So the message went on like this instead: “Emzkin in we on (or peon) frail hoary fink i fixt Vooro (or Jooro) die dozin”
WRGOAB = EMZKIN
AB = IN
DWTB = WE ON (or PEON)
IMPAN = FRAIL
ETPML = HOARY
IABO = FINK
AIAQC = I FIXT
VTTMT = VOORO (or JOORO)
SAW = DIE
STGAB = DOZIN
The solution
WRGO = BUM’S
ABAB = A DAD
DMLIAOI = I PLEASE
WTBI = BODE
MPAN = PRAY
ETP = GOR
MLIABO = PLEADS
AIAQC = A EATH
VTTMT = COOPO
SAW = NAB
STGAB = NOMAD
NickP : I recollect that Jessica Harkness gave her name as Thompson at one stage, before reverting it to Thomson … ring a bell with you?
Peteb: when asked her surname by the police, she gave her (future) husband’s surname, but I don’t recall any particular spelling.
Many thanks ..
There seems a lot of confusion with Thompson/Thomson (and perhaps Thomsen/Thompsen too).
Part of the problem here is that what is written down needs to be taken with a pinch of salt – because we don’t know whether the person owning the surname has spelt it out, or whether the person writing it down has assumed a particular spelling.
I find Thompsen interesting for that very reason. It doesn’t seem to be a phonetic way to spell it unless someone pronounced the ‘p’ and the ‘e’ OR made sure to clarify that this was the spelling. Now my handwriting is horrible, and even if I scribbled down Thompsen, I would likely subsequently read it as Thompson unless explicitly writing it a different way was still fresh in my mind (e.g. if I could remember Mangnoson explicitly clarifying it, or something).
But Thompson vs Thomson is more subtle (I think Nick previously had a post that explicitly referred to the Tintin Thom(p)sons (or their French version Dupon(d|t) (I was going to say “original French version” – but that was actually “Durant et Durand”). While some people might quite clearly pronounce the “P”, I suspect many would pronounce them the same and assume on or other spelling having heard that pronunciation. (Most days I would include the “P” even if I didn’t hear it).
Am I right in assuming Harkness formally changed her name to Thomson prior to their marriage?
Peteb: we know that she used George’s surname, but as far as I’m aware there’s no indication she did this in any formal sense.
NickP: I’ve got son Robin seemingly registered as being born surname Thomson in 1947, and mother Harkness marrying Thomson in 1950 .. which pre-supposes some name-change formality prior to wedlock.
Peteb: I hadn’t thought of that angle, nice one. Have you actually seen Robin’s birth certificate etc?
No, I’m just the bright ideas bloke.
Clive Walker/Turner, in a very recent TBT post refering to the non productive Feltus/Harkness (sic) interview(s) of 2002, spoke as if they occurred in the old detective’s retirement years. I’m not a fan of the ‘The Unknown Man’ but have become well enough aquainted with it’s general content to know that these interviews were alleged to have taken place during the course of routine police inquiries around 2002 before GF’s retirement. I saw nothing helpful in the little detail shared out of said interviews, although his subsequent mention of Don O’Doherty’s late report on the ‘carried man’ yarn was a break in the tedium.
Ex Detective Feltus, when puting his ‘Unknown Man’ novel down, wanted it to be known to his gullible readers that back in 1949, A/Det. Sgt. Leane made a personal pact with his unnamed nurse ROK/Boxall informant that her details would never be divulged. Proof of this being attested to Gerry’s success in later identifying her only through the ROK phone number which he clains to have cleverly traced through a 1947 Adelaide directory. At that time he was in charge of the CIB ‘Cold Case’ squad which presumably gave him access to all the relevant though depleted remaining SM file notes, which is how he was thus able to interview his nurse with no name and maintain discretion thereby…If that were to be true then why didn’t the preceeding CC man, his former boss Det. Sgt. Ron Thomas pass on such details, he having apparently had social connections with the Thomsons thus saving him the time and effort to trace her. Seems to me that others in Angas Street CIB also knew and that Leane’s secret was no secret at all. Proof being in the nurses admission to her interrogator that that coppers had been to see her under similar over of anonimity back in the 80s…Toro Toro Toro (sic) Gerry, you’re full of it mate.
The 1947 South Australian phone book, all of 150 pages; so how might one go about searching subscriber’s details of a four digit number with an ‘X’ prefix if you were not in any particular hurry?…Answer would of course be to follow down the columns page by page when your busy schedule of ‘cold case’ work allowed for it spotting for that occasional tell tale ‘X’ and so on?. A rather prolonged period according to the most diligent officer concerned. Of course if one were to have been in somewhat of an excitable rush to reach the prize, they could go about it in a similar manner though starting from the back for easier page turning and not stop for tea breaks. Low and behold in no time at all you’ve spotted the stand out ‘X’ , then comes the desired number string of 3..2..3…9 followed up by Sister J.E. Thomson 90A Moseley St. Glenelg…..Bingo you’ve scoooored and it all took less than five minutes.
So it’s just a simple thing, but when I typed Tamam Shud in translate it didn’t show “finished”. Instead it said All colic; colic is a severe pain in the abdomen caused by wind or obstruction in the intestines and suffered especially by babies. It might sound stupid but maybe there was wind in his intestins and he died because of that. Like I said, It’s just a theory.
P.S.: In translate set the language to Gujarati which leads to the translation of All colic.
Bo Mullebrouck – Belgium
Bo Mullebrouck: that might explain the odd lingering smell around a lot of Somerton Man theories, thanks for sharing!
I found a copy of the book with just ‘ Tamam’ at the end . I can’t find any information on this issue. It is certainly a Fitzgerald 1934 edition
Ki: Looks like you are in possession of a Fitzgerald 2nd Edition printed in 1934 which has the full 110 quatraines and ends with TAMAM.
Ki, is your edition a similar “pocket book” to the purported Whitcombe one? Is the word “Tamam” rendered in the familiar decorative script in your copy? Could you measure the height and width of the character “a” in the word in mm’s and let me know what it is?
Ki: If it’s going to be a factor (looks that way), the later Fitz. editions 3,4 and 5 being of 101 quatrains were less popular editions than the first and second. Most had the Tamam ending though I’ve heard of a ‘Finis’ in a 1900 Harrap and no end wording at all in an early Collins, some 101’s had minor differences in text and punctuation as well…..Ki..I had a Samoan pen pal by that name so it rings a bell; you don’t have sisters Sasha and Kate by any chance I guess? Of course we had a lass from Norway, Kinbru who was connected to our colleague Gordon but she mysteriously stopped posting.
Could the Sommerton code relate to 1947-48 English League pools eg
S: Southport
T: Tranmere
G: Gateshead
A: Accrington
B: Barrow
3rd Division North etc etc. etc.
patrick: might prove otherwise but, in 1948 Aussies didn’t go in for soccer much and did not have lawful access to English Football Pools or any other form of off course/field gambling in any case. If those scores are for real it does leave open another more viable possibility in that the code was written back in blighty and was brought to Adelaide with a shipboard migrant (I have one in mind). Very interesting so can you please varify.
Surprising there is no mention here of Dr Colleen Fitzpatrick’s unexpected finding of a DNA link between Rachel Egan and the Thomson family, a link which finally dispels the commonly held notion that the Somerton Man may have been Rachel’s grandfather. Then again, perhaps I’ve missed it, which is hard to believe given the all-encompassing and well researched knowledge of the case regularly exhibited by John Sanders.
Peteb: the Thomsons seem to have got their lineage in a bit of a twist, which for a family in the (admittedly fairly dim) Somerton Man limelight would seem to be a tad awks.
Still, no point in worrying too much about that now, the FSSA should have some DNA-related news about the real Somerton Man before too long, at which point the Abbotts / Egans / Thomsons can collectively slink off quietly while the real history and genealogy gets done. 😉
I’m almost certain it was moi put you on to the New York Times story from this site Peteb. Is that what you’re referring to with the Doc. Fitzgerald’s Egan links to Tom Jefferson and the Thomsons. I’ll check this end and get back.
NickP: Perhaps, though with over 100 days gone and no word of any progress on the DNA front, a man might wonder whether the revolutionary embalming process courtesy of Paul Lawson’s first attempt after learning the technique in the UK hasn’t helped. I’ve asked this question to the forensic genealogy institute Fitzpatrick holds membership, perhaps they’ll respond.
By the way, when you mention the Thomsons slinking off, do we associate that welcome retreat with the notion that the Somerton Man was in town to engage in a little black-market business with Prosper?
There you go Peteb and quicker than a New York minute, a story by Alan Uhas NY Times 23rd May vide John Sanders posted on CM at 6.44am. Proably a tad early in the day for an old fella in need of his rest what?
Peteb: Actually there is nothing quoted from Colleen Fitzpatrick that claims Ms. Egan’s links to Prosper’s grandparents directly. That was an apparent un attributed statement made by the reporter himself based on DNA taken some time previous, from some unattributed source, not specifically accredited to Derek’s geneologist, expert so it would seem. Gotta be careful with this shit, it has a tendency to come back and bite the proposer, if you get my drift.
Peteb: You mean to say that Paul Lawson accompanied Laurie Elliott to London for the embalming course which is new to me. Next time the old fellow calls, see if you can get some varification will you. It could break new ground on SM’s ‘prestine’ head that was described by him to GC or was it y’man Clive Turner/Walker. Struth an old duffer can make in awfull ass of himself these days trying to put all their names in the right slot.
Don’t stake your claim on what doesn’t belong to you, Sanders, the NYT article was first referred to in DA’s Facebook site … and I’ve got to ask, mate, where does your inexhaustible supply of bullshit come from?
Peteb: whoever gave you the Bozo title deserves a medal. DA’s facebook site of 23 May only contains an add for some ABCBTN newsbreak story with 4 comments, none related to the NYT story from 21st ultimo re our difference of opinion, and before that some ridiculous old soviet spy movie complements of your mentor Gordon Cramer. I won’t call you out for being the fool and liar that you mimic so well, gravely distracted will serve adequately for now.
….found the DA Face Book link to the NY times semi paywall story that he put out also on 23rd May but with no lead in or post time displayed; Perhaps DA saw it mentioned here first, who knows, certainly not straw grasping Peteb who is not likely to have spotted it tucked away on facebook or he would have made some sort of polite thanks to Derek before puting it up on his Tbt site.
Sanders: I give you Elliott …
Parting gift for Peteb and his Thomson family fiasco which he’ll have forgotten by tomorrow when something equally irrelevant strikes his fancy. Most of what’s had him in a dither of late, is available on line to anyone of average nouse bothered to follow the leads. For instance Robin McMahon Thomson was not born in July ’47 at all, but 10th June of that year. That means he was likely conceived a full month before Alf Boxall (& Keane) showed up needing a change from what they’d been dating casually in the islands for the past year’n a bit.
Peteb: How more humbly apologetic can one be…OK accepted, now what about the seemingly deliberate Fitzgerald faux pas over at Tbt or have you corrected it by now.
Two for you, Sanders, have you ever seen a photo | image of the Freeman Rubaiyat,? And if so, where?
Gone through this not long ago, not for the first time by a long shot. Tell you for what it’s worth, I don’t have a clue how to tell the difference between a real image and one that’s not, apart from those that have passed through the hands of your pal Gordon Cramer. Now you tell me Peteb what’s so all fired important in being able to pick the real from the imposter…if in fact either ever existed outside those stuck in the rags circa. ’48/9. I’m busy right now with my ear to the door of a well SM connected S.A. family who are in with folks named Cleland, Freeman and Boxall and I’m only just starting on them and, hell they would surely be able to give you a definitive..but they won’t.
very poorly researched (it’s about entertainment not fact finding), but might still interest:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cTE8J5J80D8
If nothing else, it’s another view.
milongal: I lasted 30 seconds, you’re made of sterner stuff than me. 🙁
Sanders… the real image and the imposter? So you’ve seen both have you?
My apologies to the enthusiastic code breakers who come by here for some intellectual enlightenment, something Pelling is known to provide on a regular basis, but the nub of the matter is that unlike the VM, we have never seen the original book the code was written on .. in fact when a photo of the code was sent to Australia’s pre-eminent code breakers in 1949 it was accompanied by a Rubaiyat the police decided was ‘similar’ to what is believed to be the original.
Fascinating, isn’t it?
Only to be expected when Leane gave his pledge of lifelong anonymity, according to Feltus, to both his informants allegedly connected to the ubiquetous Ronald Francis pocket W&T ROK (or was it Len Brown’s look alike Collins?).
While we’re all snug here on the main TS/SM thread line, do any of you old-timers recall there being periodic updates of NAA records in the last dozen years or so, particularly the passenger arrivals which seem to have been stuck fast in the sixties to mid seventies since my intrusion in 2016. I’ve got a million names badly in need of searching.
It may be common knowledge that Katherine Thomson now aged 70 has only recently moved to a rather nice retirement home on the Murray River, giving up her successful practice at RAH and living the quiet life with MS. She and husband Bob married in 1970 and have three children a daughter Julia and two sons Joel & Dannie all middle aged still single and seemingly well placed in their respective artistic pursuits. The family are very close & supportive to a fault, being popular though rather conservative according to a family friend with the familiar name Feltus which is interesting. I hadn’t known that Kate had gone to America in her teens as an exchange student at a Jewish school (speaks Yiddish), nor that the family lived at a retreat up in the Adelaide Hills about the time of ‘Inside Story’. Oh and her personal favourite amongst the Somerton Man case docos happens to be the Wayne Groom feature premiered in Adelaide 2019, with a star studded SM savy guest list and a cast Jo’s close aquaintances…which Kate no doubt arranged. Now we know for sure that mum & dad had nothing whatever to do with ‘The Man’ or the case he was responsible for thank Jahweh.
Almost forgot to mention that, when newly weds Kate and Bob Leahy went house searching in the early 70s, just out of pure coincidence they found a nice place on High St. Glenelg. just up the way from where her mum & dad lived when she was born. So what’s the big deal you might ask. The place they chose at No. 27 was just two doors down from the Freemans at 31, where Colin the chemist had been residing back in the heady days of ’48 and where widow Freeman Snr. was still domiciled. Not quite worth a well spotted from likes of GC and Peteb perhaps, but jolly close in my humble estimation. No wonder the Freeman connection showed up on my recent search list, along with the likes of surname Feltus anors.
…..27 High St. Glenelg was a vacant block in 1971, but developed as a block of units by ’72, at which juncture the Leahy’s took up residence in unit 2. How long Bob and Kate remained is unknown due to S & M directory being wound up in 73, although they were still there then.
Is that the Joel who was involved with Xlamb? I note that connective tissue disease can mimic MS.
It’s no wonder Kate’s tribe liked ‘Missing Pieces’ over all the other SM crap, after all they were themselves likely to have been complicit in crafting the plot with ‘bits and pieces’ of their own invention to create a more suitable legacy for poor badly maligned Jo Thomson. It also opened up a spot part for their friends and near neighbours the Freemans. No wonder poor Doug Hendrickson got ousteded for the ROK top spot and replaced by chemist John Freeman. Feltus might himself have signed off on the new fabrication as a means of covering an earlier deception involving his claimed interview with his own ‘Ron Francis’ creation that never took place..
None other!
JS, so there is a possible link to the Beaumont case?
BD: Kate has a professional connection to Royal Adelaide and her MS is of some long standing, so your CTD seems to be a low card possibility. Something else right down your alley if you have the time, inclination and means. Kate and Bob Leahy were married 17/8/70, a full Monte affair in Adelaide or possibly closer to the Thomson place up in the hills. Got me thinking that if they still had full blown social columns in the local rags of those bygone days, we might have some access to an interesting guest list. Photos I’ve seen suggest a full dress Church or Synagogue ceremony and top dollar nosh up afterwards but no close up to check for givaway fare or hebe toasts. There isn’t any doubt the Leahy tribe Julia, Joel, Daniel and (?) Mordechai were raised in The Faith which I made mention of after spotting the 7 slot candle bizzo behind Kate in her contrived “Mum had her dark side” role on 60 minutes years ago.
BD: if you’re talking about Xlamb’s alleged link to Joel and her long held views on what transpired in 1966 with her dad’s alleged participation in the Beaumont farce. No not at all but, on the other hand one can’t overlook like SOC logistics connected to both. For example Colin Freeman’s wife Marg happened to be friends with my Beaumont suspect’s wife, though apparently only through their residential proximities, which is no link imo….ps. are you aware that Colin Freeman left 31 High St. in the early sixties and moved closer to Somerton Beach at 2 Bickford Terrace with mum & dad staying put.
Peteb: apart from a couple of birth year blunders in your Ern Thomson descending lineage, all seems to be solid reference material. However in order to complete our knowledge of family ties, I thought folks might like to know what happened to poor Rollo’s widow. She had been Nina Ruth Semple, two years his senior when they married in 1939 and most importantly had no issue which supports Makara/misca claims of possible impotance ( George/Kate?). Nina died Thomson in 2009 as a widow of 66 years standing and her ashes are at Nth. Subs. Cremo. NSW.
Interested to hear your views on why Jimmy D wasn’t called up for fingerprinting duties on the bright and shiny contents of our lad’s suitcase, particularly as you are about to take possession of a trove of his personal files … I’d ask the same question of the moderator here, but alas, he’s signed off.
Peteb: as far as I know, we have no information as to whether or not the suitcase was fingerprinted.
But there surely wouldn’t have been a lot of point, given that at that point they don’t seem to think a crime had been committed, right?
…and in addition to that, the suitcase and it’s unsecured contents had most likely been subjected to grubby handed intrusions during the six weeks of loose storage since SM’s death , so likely use for comparison or elimibation purpose could well have been a factor for not subjecting them to finger printing. If in fact that were to have been the case, truth being we simply don’t know and will never know unless ..unless the soon to be delivered ‘trove’ of scans includes evidence to the contrary.
Heh heh heh … not quite good enough lads. Not unexpected from the Katzenjammer Kids though.
Cop this lot then Mr. Heh heh heh. What possible gain could cops have made by attempting to lift prints off the suitcase when after all the police had already confirmed that prints Durham took from the body were unknown world wide. Secondly Leane being himself satisfied with other comparison matches that the kit belonged to the dead man saw no need wasting Jimmy’s doing the pountless time consuming job, then dragging in all the station porters and other known felons to confirm who’d been into the goodies. And a cheery Heh heh heh to you too.
Response is over my way, Ace ..
peteb: what makes you think SAPOL thought a crime had been committed? A man had died, sure, but I doubt you can die from a scratch between your knuckles. Mysterious? Yes. Suspicious? A bit. But a crime?
NickP: who needs a crime? We have an unidentified body, no signs of violence, no clue as to who he is and this is the situation when SAPOL discover a suitcase they ‘think’ may belong to him after having the case on their books for six weeks. A suitcase with enough articles inside to have enabled one of the state’s best finger printers to lift as many prints as he liked. Articles that were ‘neatly packed’ and undisturbed by Sander’s ‘grubby fingers’ …
Any policeman worth his salt would have gone straight to the fingerprint man in the optimistic hope that the prints might lead to an identity and the case be quickly packed up and put away. That’s what police work is about.
Yet SAPOL waited for Cleland and Cowan to go though their own peculiar identification routine … then waited some more to be told of their findings.
That makes sense to you, does it?
Peteb: That’s your response to the moderator, now how about a little more of your wisdom in dealing with my little piece of undeniable Leane logic.
Peteb: I seem to recall the detectives at General Crime back in the 70s using ‘Ace’ when addressing a certain high rolling colleague. Modesty prevents me from naming the guy in question but I also remember greeting like ‘Hey Smart Ace and Wise Ace, so you are inderd intuitive spanker….As for my agreeing with our moderator re fingerprinting, show me how you perceived that for nowhere does it occur in my logic for not taking up swaith of James Duham’s time put to better use. Welcome back to you Ruth Collins @Xlamb @ R 3 &c., etc., we are in need of your pleasant lengthy commentary style of old. Sorry that you didn’t see my recent commonsensical views on ‘to print or not to print’ scenario but thats OK. No need to swing by this way when Peteb is in more need of your unique critique and your presence might keep him in humour as well, Indeed, indeed.
Ruth: you’ll forgive me for not initially taking in your Tbt posting, but for an out of character snide comment on my past proud police service of which you would not be aware. Apart from a 100% record on hundreds of convictions, mostly for false pretence and deception offences, my record includes two commendations and a Commissioner’s compliments ribbon? for thwarting a threat made on the life of a Family Court Judge in 1975. As for the hopefully main purpose of your posting, vis. arguments for fingerprinting suitcace & contents, tends only to validate my own better reasons not to, on simple grounds that such would only serve to confirm the dead man’s ownership and possible identification, answers to which were already at hand. Sorry.
A long memory and a soft fluffy pillow to bite into. Say what Bowsie Wowsie..
How’s this for an uplift to our joint flagging interest of late. Tbt starts with another serving of behold John Sanders the Vietnam era military deserter (related to Rene and passed on for informatio to VA). Then accused retaliates by expsnding earlier no holds barred truths about cringing Curly of the RAAF who puts his Brewster fighter down in Singpore sans undercarriage so’s to avoid confronting possible Nips on their way in from Saigon in late ’41. If we’re cleared for take off, I’m all set and ready with yet more tales of derring don’t do from 453/21 Sqn’s trail to shame to Adelaide via Sambawang, Ipoh, KL and Bukit Bahru to a cowards haven in Java, thence aboard a luxury the luxury liner Fair(something) on to Adelaide and hasty disbanding. There’s also undeciphered Japanese and tricky Royal Navy/RAF fuzzy radio transmissions to decode so’s to justify Cipher Mysteries credentials. Seems right is on our side Nick Pelling and the games can begin once y’man advises his team of Lincoln lawyers to get set for a bumpy ride.
NickP: this rubbish is down to you. In my country we treat the dead with respect, you on the other hand allow trolls like John Sanders to insult and demean them. Letting a man like Sanders write insulting lies about my father is shameful.
Yeah sure Bonzo any policeman worth his extra monthly stipend would be prepared to make Jimmy Durham’s day by tasking him, the man who took SM’s fingerprints on day one, to do the suitcase case and contents as well, in optimistic hope that a miracles would happen. When are you pair of no nothing disturbing elements, (GC’s now in for all he’s worth which ain’t worth nuthin) , going to get it through your thick ‘prestine’ skulls that yon dead bushy’s prints were not recorded anywhere in J. Edgar Hoover’s English speaking world.
Mere pillow talk from a deranged muncher. Bring on team like the chip off the old block you have shown thyself to be.
Peteb: please tell me which bit of it is wrong.
Pelling : my response is online, and there it will remain.
As opposed to letting a man? write deliberately inflated accounts about his own father’s alleged wartime operational sorties/strikes and attacks which totalled 17. This as against 47 which this well established creative accountant submitted to the Australian War Memorial, as being a truthful account of his fighter pilot father’s extraordinary service knowing it to be a pack of flaming lies…Next on my intended agenda, depending on attitude of plaintiff (?), will be to cover a full account of the Battle of Britain ace 453 Sqn Ldr’s Secret Report of the Singapore exit debacle (covered briefly 2018), followed up if deemed necessary by posting released parts of a 1942 Commission of Inquiry and another from 1946 which is available but with some content deleted for security reasons.
Peteb: are you really asking a historian on a history blog to research your family history to arbitrate between yourself and John Sanders? Have you thought this through to the end?
So… if it turns out that the things that John Sanders has claimed are true (but which you wish weren’t true) in the specific historical archives he has cited, what then?
When you properly engage with history, it is usually complicated and very often unflattering. Under a historical microscope, people who have spent a long time on a pedestal (and I’m sure some would mention Churchill here, but I think it’s actually true for the majority of historical figures) very often present sides of their actions to the record that are very much at odds with how anyone would like them to be remembered.
If you ask me to look at it – and frankly I have 10,000 other things I’d want to do first – then what I would present here is what I find, no more and no less. Is that really what you want? Or am I supposed to just discard all of John Sanders’ comments because you don’t like the way it sounds when it comes out of someone else’s mouth?
You don’t have to look very far or very hard to notice that you’ve invested a lot of time and effort in goading, belittling, and often insulting him, and that’s your own stupid business, good luck with that. But when Sanders bites back, oh poor old you. Riiiight.
Nick Pelling: I’m humbly indebted to your better tollerance & wisdom. I was just about to advise the creep to consider doing unto himself as he would wish done unto others of lesser pedigree and rights to a respectful co existance. The man lays claims to be God fearing which is worrying somewhat and now that Xlamb is back, I have concern for her sanity in such demented company.
Pelling; I have not and do not want you to research anything to do with my father’s wartime service, where you got that idea from is beyond me. So hop off your throne and get back to examining badly drawn tits and testicles, ok?
Or you could attempt to control the troll in your midst. Sanders, to me, appears to be suffering from some kind of victim syndrome, living alone in a Vietnamese provincial city, obviously friendless and with enough idle time to make a complete arse of himself online … I’d offer the poor lonely bastard some help if I could as his life appears to be a misery.
Peteb: so your grouse with Sanders is what, then? And what exactly do I have to do with it?
Or is it simply that you’re a cranky old man who wants everything on the Internet to be on your own terms, and you’ll bark and bark until every other idiot gives in?
……Lonely, I’m Mr. Lonely, I have nobody to call my own…Letter, never a letter, I get no letters in the mail….I’m just a soldier, a lonely old soldier, away from home with no place of my own….Peteb’s right to a fault of course. My sad lot is no kith or kin, friendless and alone, living in abject poverty and misery here in a no longer covid free southern Indochine. All is not lost though, looks like help is on the way in the form of a true saint in the guise of Peter Bowes Esq., so hats off to the oft maligned good Samaritan and old softy to boot. Thanks for caring mate, your a true saviour.
Xlamb: No doubt you’ll be following the current turn of off subject events and will be offering your own critique as your prerogative and best of luck. In regards your thoughts re parents Jim and Nancy as being my chief suspects for the uplifting and resettlement, that would be a somewhat ignorant simplistic view of a much more complex scenario. Should you be at all interested, a more logical chain of events than those you believed you witnessed as a possibly confused child of 10, then follow results of my investigation on Cipher Mysteries. A well meaning suggestion before making those out of character spiteful, accusory and even libelous remarks that don’t reflect your past inoffencive online manner.
Can others see that Peteb’s resolve is waining, apparent by a slight change in tonal inflection along with usual vindictive and slanderous dialogue. Note also that he’s seen fit to implant as a logo an incorrectly worded WW2 AIF army copy badge as a header, but another sign of reluctant observance of recent lessens on humility…
(Certain I’ve asked this before) Has anyone at anytime determined at what point the police realised this was more than just a John Doe (even when the body isn’t being claimed they probably didn’t think it was overly suspicious).
All the hysteria around “the police did[‘nt] do…” is nonsensical unless we show it happened once the police thought there was more to this than an unclaimed body.
Even the suitcase – the only purpose fingerprinting might serve is to definitively tie it to SM – but in the meantime it’s been handled in the Railway Station, and probably handled by the police when they picked it up. Perhaps by the time it occured to them prints might be useful they decided they’d already destroyed any chance of a useful print (or perhaps they tried to lift prints, and didn’t get anything useful because of all the handling in between – not a lot of point reporting that, and because the inquest isn’t adversarial, noone asked about it, so nothing wen on record).
I forgot to be clever and sign off with “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” (or similar)
Sanders. …. You are without a doubt one bad old bastard but just lately I’ve come to the opinion that all is not lost between us, just as long we keep the pommie Pelling at a safe distance.
The reason for this change of heart ❤️ matey is not because I’ve learnt that as a youth you had some surfing prowess, I’ve been given certain info that demands it. So, if you would kindly get off your soapbox then I will do ditto.
Not much doubting that by the 70s the Thomson’s had moved from the Adelaide hills down to the lower foothills in Beaumont. For a considerable period they were ensconsed at with or close by their non rthordox Jewish and alternate life former friends from Mentone, Margaret Langley and by ext. L. Jorgenson, L.Cohen and T. Edhouse. Tim Edhouse an actor who played the part of himself in ‘Missing Pieces’ claims to be the son of Margaret yet does not seem to fit the bill agewise, looking to me as being no older than fifty, his mum, Jo’s pal being of 1920 vintage and too old to calve in 1970 or thereabouts. I recall mentioning similar concerns regarding Jo’s Newcastle born sister Nelle (Ellen Mary) McLeish who in her movie role had the outward appearance and demeanour of someone ten years younger than her 92 years (which misca disagreed with). The whole show for that matter looked to be staged managed by people close to Kate Thomson for mine and included a deal of footage consistent with GC’s soviet wet ops. spy style melodrama to the exclusion of anything less intriguing ie., self destruction or accidental misadventure. There was a lot of footage borrowed from earlier docos and the same errors of known fact made by likes of Feltus (unpardonable) and Abbott (not unexpected) were still in place. My view is that it was all in all hardly an inspiring show, though interesting from an investigators need of any new snippets passed over from earlier viewings..
milongal: by most accounts it was Leane who decided to check out the Adelaide cloak room for a possible non baggage collection lead to the unidentified body.
Not true, some time earlier, possibly the day before, say around 10 Jan ’49 two railway detectives, accompanied by an appointed transit service doctor made the connection following annapparent routine inspection and this was subsequently passed on. The suitcase was definately unlocked at that stage, though being six weeks after the fact, who knows how many curious eyes and greedy fingers may also have shown interest. I’m sure if fingerprinting of case and contents had been undertaken as Peteb and GC suggest as the logical way forward, Sapol would’ve been processing entrapped but otherwise uninvolved railway porters til March.
Bowes…never had time nor inclination to offer myself up as a free meal for a ravenous school of bronze whalers. As for your latest offering re soul brothers for a common cause, thanks but no thanks, though if you ever have anything of SM relevance you’d like professional opinion on, I’ve no qualms with civil intercourse, even with those I neither like nor trust.
Fair enough
Even though suffering from information overload, certainly not helped by latest deliberately disruptive events, I’ve decided to return to search for some out of town relative who may have arrived late for Reg Bickford’s funeral in November 1948, a recap I meant to pursue ages ago. As you’ll no doubt recall old Reg was born at Alvington and went on to marry Rosa Cudmore, daughter of a large wide ranging (all states) family of pastoralists. My mission now is to track them all down and select those who fit the age criteria which should be easy enough, already having assembled a short list of four score and ten potential Somerton Man candidates to get on with.
Does anyone remember some past experienced code breaker saying that the letter ‘C’ was an additional input clue to support Gordon’s infamous letter ‘Q’ on the penultimate line. Seems that some early Cudmores settled around Quorn S.A. just north of Port Augusta, later a busy rail marshalling point for AIF and US troops heading north to halt the yellow peril along their assumed invasion route through N.T. So I’ll busy myself around Cudmore Hill Station, Quorn to start with and if no joy expand further afield in hope of a long overdue breakthrough. Looking to beat the up market SM DNA mob to the punch and feel free to join the hunt folks, I’m happy to share the prize casket.
On 16 Sept. I was asking for help with Kath Thomson and Bob Leahy’s marriage coverage in newspapers for 17 Aug. 70. Alas no news as yet so this be a reminder of sorts but also to advise that the Leahy’s (six families) were always big in Glenelg and actually owned 24A Jetty Rd. when John Freeman didn’t reside there in 1948. Also it looks like the groom, whilst pretending to be Robert or Bob, was actually christened Aaron so that may have been the notified given name ie., Aaron Robert Leahy and Katherine Helena Thomson.
Helena is an interesting middle name – that reeks (Eastern) Europe* to me….surely English speakers of that era would more likely use “Helen” – unless there was a a reason to go ethnic (and I guess people like to use middle names for sentimental/familiar/romantic reasons)
*My first thought was Russian/Balt (with an obvious bias given the context) but Czech, Greek or German probably fits similar or better
milongal: Ever heard of Sister Helena Elizabeth Monica McMahon, Army Nurse WW2
milongal: what do you tell 1765 Helena’s (first or second name) who died in Sth. Australia, silent majority with English sounding surnames it seems.
Helena McMahon was born 1904 into a large laboring class family from country Victoria., trained as a nurse in a regional teaching hospital post WW1, rising to be Matron by WW2. Joining the Army Nursing Service at CMF level in 1940, she tended to mixed civilian and military patients at Heidleberg 115 and then POWs at Tatura internment camp Hospital. Later as a regular field ranked officer she was placed in charge of front line evacuations of wounded diggers and U.S. GIs from Papua New Guinea. During a post war three year stint as Matron in charge of 130 Australian General Hospital (BCOF) Japan, Matron McMahon’s life of service was subject of a cover story in Woman’s Monthly magazine, similar praise for her dedication to duty appearing in other popular ladies periodical rags of the day. No doubt yarns on her career invoked a sense of hope amongst a certain class of young girls in an era when hero worship still prevailed. Maybe Jestyn was that way inclined and recalled the old head nurse from her year as an aid in a country hospital, when selecting names for her kids ie., McMahon for Robin and Helena for Katherine. Anyone so interested, ‘Monica’s War’ should be still available, maybe even on ebook, I’m not connected to on line purchase facilities so haven’t read it yet.
SM might well have used another language for his code. To be found within the ciphertext is an undeniable pointer to possible use of Provencal/Occitan dialect to pen a lovelorn lament ala Mistral/Daudet style, or conversely a more assertive “I deserve better” gabber style ditty in the original Trubadeur [sic], rough hewn Romance linga of an earlier classic ‘Servantes’ era…If true this proposition might not be countenanced by self assured pundits with their own unflapable code language which is fine by moi……Oh, forgot GAB, the last three out of sync letters in line four for anyone willing to have a crack at Oc (yes).
…whoops t’was Sirventes (the poem) of William IX or Richard I vintage, no Snr. Miguel Cervantes who had his fame in Spain about inquisition/reformation time from memory.
Yeah I know; Along with letters K and Y which thankfully are absent from the Occitan alphabet, unfortunately so is W which may, depending on whether first letters for lines 1 to 3 be W or M (debatable). Even so there is still an out for W if it represents a foreign language word not generally used in Oc, yes.
@JS: English Sounding surname doesn’t necessarily mean English (or even British) person (especially when you consider there’s a chance it’s not their maiden name). Without breaking those 1765 down further into the era they died (over time a name would potentially become more common in a multi-cultural community). It’d also depend what “English-Sounding” means.
– Schmidt, Smitt and other Smith variants might sound English…..
– Some foreign names are Anglicized for different reasons (e.g. Germanic names during and after WW1).
– Some languages are less rigid than English. We’ve previously discussed Latvian’s adjusting names (eg Džons Senders), but the reverse is true too to some degree (I know of a handful of “Janis” who would anglicise themselves “John”, ditto for Peteris/Peter). I don’t know to what extent you’d see this in a surname but not in a first name, but it’s possible.
So IMHO the jury would be out on those 1765 without a closer look. So I don’t tell them nothing (they’re dead after all), but I do question whether their English-sounding name makes them Britishers.
NB: I did realise after my post Czech would more likely be Jelena than Helena **oops
AB (possibly with preceding G) to me seems to be a sign-off or signature (although you’d have to agree it’s a bit odd to signoff something created as a memory trigger).
Insert all normal discussions about the “W” or “M” or something else plus recall earlier rants that we’re potentially relying on someone who doesn’t necessarily have experience with different alphabets and interpret shapes to be letters that they’re not.
There is an interesting train of thought, though, that perhaps the “small C” after “Q” was in fact a C with cedilla (but the English-speaker highlighting the letters didn’t recognise diacritics that we don’t see in English, so the Cedilla itself is lost) – which might be consistent with the Occitan alphabet (among others).
It’s also interestng that the most common Occitan letter is ‘A’ (although that’s not necessarily most common at beginning of a word) – and there are a LOT of ‘A’ in MLIABO.
So I’m a touch interested to see how this would go – would have been REALLY intriguing if the odd shaped ‘S’ (with the crossbar) had a neat explanation.
milongal: Ever heard of Helen a’ Troy. Name has Greek origins and said to mean ‘bright shining light’. Shakespeare had one in his ‘A Mid Summer Night’s Dream’ and others including one in ‘All’s Well That Ends Well’ which might be appropriate for our case closed Tamam..
GAB in Occitan means to ‘boast’ it’s also a challenging lyrical type of song made popular by troubadours in times of yore. Our modern English word Gab, gabber and yabber which have similar applications, must be linguistically related and the same is likely to be found in like words of certain principalities in the South of France and Northern Spain etc…And yes G A B in our case might well have been meant as a boast, dare or challenge to crack the dead man’s code thus revealing his past. Seems our SM may have given us way too much credit as code breakers.
While it’s still fresh, Harold North, the senior porter who gave evidence as stand in for leave taking Ralph Craig who checked in SM’s suitcase, is most likely Harold Rolf(e) North @ Harold Ralph Craig Forsyth bn. 1881? and who died a week after the inquest at Maryatville ie., August ’49. He’s out there at Centenial Park and information is rather scanty, apart from a failed inlistment for WW1 service. One and the same bloke IMO though it needs more work to verify. If it turns out to be correct, whys and wherefores are in order even at this late stage.
…14th July three weeks post inquest Harold North died suddenly and I now recall writing it up way back without getting well spotted accreditations or comments from the usual Cramer/Bowes spy hit cartel. Although called as a substitute for R. Craig (?), Harry’s testimony was key to fixing SM’s arrival time in Adelaide and went some way to explaining the suitcase find. As for @ Harry Craig Forsyth I’m not at all sure of a link cause in 1948 there were six R. Craigs listed in the S A directorys also another Harry Forthsyth shows up with a wife Iris as per Harry North. NB: R. Craig’s being on leave would be lame excuse for non attendance to witness or otherwise supplying a Sword affidavit, also suspicious is that his full particulars never came out at the inquest.
Prof. Abbott’s ‘timeline of events’ is also full of gaffs including the death of Harold Rolfe North in 1995, which if correct would have made him 110. Here’s me doing my best to defend the bloke from snide attacks on him by Feltus, turns out he’s no better in the credibility department.
Byron: Save you any unintended embarrassment, go to my main Barbours post on this TS/SM thread for 21/11/17 to give you the whole box & dice including leather saddlery use and horse mane/tale hair fancy plaiting for show. Also it’s total unsuitability in the T. Keane heavy linen threads form for clothing repairs.
If you remember it, my compliments to the lads, especially Clive and pass on information as follows :- Wm BARBOUR & SONS LTD. with my fondest regards!
One can never be sure on whether Gordon Cramer gets his news from reliable sourses or merely improvises on theme. Todays yarn continues on from his pictorial Adelaide cloakroom speel of yesterday vis. non appearance at the ’49 inquest of nominee check in attendant Ralph Craig. GC has now conjured up an alternate Railway employee from 1923/50 in Raymond Mervyn Craig. I managed to get a close hit with a non railway tradesman of that name; and who, on 6th July, 1949 went before the court in Adelaide, and was convicted for trespassing and common assault of a female & inflicing minor injuries. I doubt that our reliably named Ralph Craig would have been into that sort of caper, so guess it’s back to the Russian desk for poor Flash to see if he can come up with a more convincing furphy..
A little unfair on the man maybe but, Gordon also identifies his cloak room attendant as Ralph Craig, no mention of a Raymond back in his beautifully illustrated post on SM’s non arrival on the Melbourne train way back in late February 2016. Comments are particularly interesting, especially those of Clive and Peter Bowes, esteem with which they had for Nick Pelling then unchanged. Recommended reading for those who appreciate fine humour. To dig the crap up go to Ralph Craig on the TS/BS site.
Yeah, GC surely stuffed up in identifying R.M. Craig as Ralph the cloak room man who remains aloof and we only have one old lead left to go on. Seems that his Raymond Mervyn and mine who was fined a total of £23.10/- in ’49, were one and the same though with Cramer getting dates out of kilter, which trait he has sadly not shaken over the years. So in 1939 aged sixteen our Raymond was taken under indenture as an apprentice toolmaker with S.A Railways and whilst at the institute he played grade football, subject of which fits with our Raymond the violent rapist ten years later who, got a good deal from Justice Muirhead in view of old teen footy injuries fueled with booze to set him off…Back to the memory bank; some years ago I certainly recall reading an article from the late twenties where R. Craig (Ralph?) had completed a railway porters course at Port Augusta, be my guest…..Sincerely hope that Gordon’s “new researches” don’t loose heart and cross over to one of the lesser all Australian TSM blogs hoping for better case insight, won’t happen.
Way to go Gordon…If at first you don’t succeed, check CM for an update; Then simply do a re hash of your blunder with annonymous on call to give you a leg up and,…try try again…Talking about Craigy of course.
Piece of piss Gordon, just as suspected in my post of 13th November ’21. Harold Rolph North, ‘substitute’ witness at the inquest, can now be identified positively as being one and the same with R. Craig, our main man supposedly on holiday whom he sat in for. Harry North’s dad Benjamin was in fact married to Ellen Craig….Case closed but for why the farce of course, you’ll be best able to give us a reason imho.
So, why did Harold North lie and how much of his evidence can now be relied upon, presumably very little in light of latest disclosures. The Leane team must have been complicit in conceling the false name from the onset of the uncollected baggage notification it seems. My earlier posted thoughts on how it came to be in the cloakroom originally deserves further consideration no doubt. It could at least clear up the mystery of a missing baggage tag in SM’s pocket…Is it possible for us to find out the cause of Harry Norths death so soon after giving false witness.
Here’s me congratulating myself heartily on having achieved the biggest evidentiary breakthrough on the SM case in years vis. Harold North’s contrived R. Craig false witness deception re implications for a different outcome to the inquest had it been exposed at the time. Only interest it received was a farcical attempt at a better R. Craig solution by Gordon Cramer, the charade being seen for what it was by any anonymous half wit. So with that in mind and being firmly of the view that further input from here is unlikely to have worthwhile effect on progress as it stands, I’ll just sit back and bide awhile which is sure to please most punters.
Who needs evidence when you can Choose Your Own Adventure….
It’s one of the reasons I gave up there….but now that you’ve pointed me back, I find this gem:
1) inventing a ledger (“… but more likely _in my view_, there would have been a ledger system”)
2) and associated headers (“It’s not hard to envisage a page with the following headers”)
3) questioning why it wasn’t presented at inquest (“… also interesting to note that the location ledger was not produced in court”).
Is it perhaps possible that the reason such a ledger wasn’t produced is because it didn’t exist?
Has there been a post anywhere about the lack of an inscription in the SM Rubyiat. Just curious as to why there was one in the Boxall one (after two short encounters with Jess according to Alf), but no mention of one in the SM one (who if he is the father of Robin who have had a much longer encounter with Jess).
My two cents about the Somerton Man case.
A big part of the mystery revolves around Jestyn. And what connects Jestyn to the case? Her phone number, X3239, was found in the back of the Rubaiyat book.
But, if I am not mistaken, there was no national phone numbers in Australia at the time. It could be the phone number of someone from another region.
Moreover, wasn’t Jestyn living with Prosper Thomson at the time? So, it was also HIS phone number. Of course, assuming that the SM had HER phone number makes for a more romanesque story.
Anyway, given that the phone number was in the classified ads of The Advertiser (The Advertiser, Sat 27 Nov 1948, Page 13, third last ad in the “Houses and land wanted” section ; The Advertiser, Sat 6 Nov 1948, Page 15, “Public notices” section), it is more probable that the SM was interested in renting a car or a bungalow than meeting with people who swear they didn’t know him.
Jestyn told the police she didn’t know the SM. And for almost SIXTY years, she maintained that claim. Do we have a solid reason to believe that she lied? A phone number that may or may not be hers? That was printed in a newspaper?
What else? Apparently she “nearly fainted” when she saw the body at the morgue, she was “evasive” when asked about the case in 2002, and her daughter believed that she knew something. All that is very subjective, and distorted by journalists and writers eager to tell a good story.
The “coded message”: When I have an important phone call, I often draw lines and symbols, or write letters on a piece of paper to relieve the stress. The first letters of some words my interlocutor is saying. Maybe that’s something like that.
If it’s a code and the guy is a spy, then he is a very bad spy. You always write your secret messages on a hard surface. Spy school 101. Come on.
Poisoning: The medical examiner could not determine the cause of death. The same thing happened to an acquaintance of mine, who passed away last year, in 2021. Of course, nobody deduced that my friend was assassinated with an undetectable poison. He probably died of natural causes. And if a doctor couldn’t find a cause of death in 2021, I believe it could also have been the case in 1948.
It is always mysterious when someone die and the police is unable to identify the person. He or she must have had friends, family members… a home… How could his absence have gone unnoticed? But, sadly, that sometimes happens. And when the case is resolved, it is often anti-climatic. The person had few friends, wasn’t close to his family, was far away from home.
The Somerton man was apparently travelling. And I can imagine this guy, who keeps a piece of paper from a poetry book in his pocket, who negligently threw this book through the open window of a car parked in the street, I can imagine this guy to be free-spirited, someone without roots, no one waiting for him. And he simply passed away, alone on the beach of a city he was visiting.
Anyway, that was just my two cents.
Here’s a nice little gem fresh in from Big Tootie hall of famer Bunk Moreland:
“It’s a story about some random kook on the internet with a stupid conspiracy theory that means nothing, not much else to understand or care about”. Whilst I can’t condone his feckless choice of adjectives, I do share some commonality with his overall viewpoint…On the ball Bunkum me lad, you surely now deserve ‘Club Legend’ status, like your pro SM conspiracy theory colleague ZedX.
If not for Ruffels ‘stupid conspiracy theory’, all we’d have to be concerned about was giving back the man his identity. In that said quest still elludes us, why not just go with our Randwick postie’s double bunger espionage deal until something else comes up ie., a DNA conspiracy of silence. Seems J. K. Ruffles never got his spy book written and in fact never left his Bondi pad. Only thing we know is that he was part of the short lived Inner Sactimonious club three decades after his even shorter stint on prime time TV. Only thing he’s done of late is to throw in with those on Derek Abbott’s ‘Identifying Somerton Man’ facebook page. I’m missing something surely.
….and wouldn’t it be fair to assume that such a worldly wise fellow like a young John Ruffels might also have been widely travelled by the mid seventies. Not so according to arrival records and I note that apart from his job as an humble PMG postman working out of Randwick, he is said to have had some attachment to army HQ at nearby Victoria Barracks; Yet only mention he gets on NAA is related to the 1977/78 Somerton Man doco. Anyone have access to J.K.R’s own inside story?
I can remember trying to trace Capt. Em Webb of the salvos who conducted Jerry Somerton’s funeral rites, but to no avail. Had another crack today for a hit & miss that needs follow-up. The Aust. Salvo Historical Assoc. Have have some Webbs but not in S.A. for the timeframe and certainly not Em Webb. Not to be deterred gave Sth. Aust. geni & West Terrace cemetery records a shot for two hits, both being connected to a child Emory Vernon Kingsman Webb who was born and died in 1920. Something doesn’t sit quite right, especially in that his grave close by that of of Jerry’s in plan 3, rows 9/12 site 146/106. Brings to mind how crooks frequently changed names using details on new born grave markers or newspaper inserts.
Listed in other sources as ‘E.J Webb’.
I also note there’s an Ernest Webb (sometimes shortened ‘Ern’) – wonder whether someone has misread Em for Ern? (I think Ernest Charles Ellis Webb) d1975.
There’s also an EFM Webb d1974 (if ‘Em’ might actually be ‘E.M.’).
There also appears to have been a Captain Robert Webb in Ballarat (though not exactly sure when).
There might also be some reasonably innocent reasons why he’s ended up with the wrong name in the pic….it seems an odd con to act like a Salvo and offer prayers at the gravesite….
There appears to have been a Church of Christ minister Jas E Webb based at Mile End (first suburb West of the City) in 1948 (although he may have finished up there Aug 1948) .
Admittedly the guy in the funeral pic definitely looks like he’s got shoulder mark/epaulette like you’d expect from a Salvo…..
milongal: Yeah, one of the rags names Salvo Captain Webb as having initials E. J. and I note that there was an Eric John Webb living at West Terrace in 1944. He was fined for stealing four spark plugs and listed his occupation as electrical mechanic. In ’42 the same feller was caught in company with another bloke’s tart and got a good working over. Sure sounds like my phony funeral officiate if you see what I’m getting at.
On Google, type in Capt. E.J. Webb, Salvation Army, then click on : “NORTHERN TERRITORY, AUSTRALIA. 1942-11-03 THE….” a Capt. E J Webb was serving cordials to the troops.
Clive: I did every state but NT which was under S.A. governance in those days. If y’man’s one and the same as the E.J. Webb at West Terrace six years later we’d need to get him out from behind the drink stand to tell whether he’s the same codger.
….On second thoughts we got a Capt. Webb going both by the name Em and initials E. J. according to 1949 press does not correlate. Then we have an E. J. Webb up north in ’42 serving drinks to soldiers at a mobile salvo booth, mindful not to put himself in the photo frame. All seems a bit odd when put in that context, as if the bloke is hiding behind his red shield.
On TROVE: “Eastern Recorder” 12 Jan 1940 Page 7,
“South Western Times” 3 Jan 1941 Page 3,
“West Australian” 22 Jan 1941 Page 11,
“The Age” 21 May 1947 Page 3,
“Chronicle” (Adelaide) 29 Jan 1948 Page 32
Clive, the Man .
Clive: you’ve done the hard yards with our man showing up in three states and a territory between 1940 and ’49 which confirms that he’s a tad flighty for some reason, then not heard from again after the funeral unless I’m mistaken. I’m not wanting to cross check your fine research but perhaps you can tell us what names or initials he goes by during that time frame and anything else we should consider.
Pb: Not to be outdone, you’ll surely recall the sad case of Fred Webb, shop owner of Moseley St. who was found ‘drowned’ off the beach at Somerton 4/6/41 with a nasty ‘shark’ wound to the arm and depleted moggies in his system. Guess we can have ‘the man’ follow up to see if he has connections to our SAO. A Frederick Alexander Webb was buried at West Terrace but no other info is available, like he never existed.
…by sad I mean, not only because he decided to chuck in the towl aged 41. As a kid he had changed his name in 1917, got to France under aged and just in time for his 10 Btn’s last glorious run at the hun with Gen. John Monash looking on from high ground well to the rear. Got himself a lung full of sarin gas which delayed his RTA until late ’19. Then after puting down roots at Glenelg and setting up a good little earner in a corner store, with the horrors of the front just a bad memory, he went and done what he did. Poor sot got tossed into a hole at West Terace like he didn’t exist and not so much as a SAO (like namesake Webb) standing over him to say a few kind parting words like “…and by the way Fred Webb old chap thanks for your fucking service”.
JS: Eastern Recorder noted as Lieut. E.J.Webb,
South Western Times noted as Capt. E.J. Webb,
West Australian noted as Capt. E. Webb,
The Age noted as Capt. E.J. Webb,
Chronicle noted as Capt. E.J. Webb
+ “Manjimup/Warren Times” 19 Apr 1939 Page 2 as Lieut. E. Webb
“Kalgoorlie Miner” 23 Aug 1939 Page 2 as Lieut. Webb
“Northram Advertiser” 22 Nov 1939 Page 3 as Lieut. E. Webb
PB: folks assume that our man of cloth is the real deal, probably he is but, like you I’ll question everthing if’n I see somit out of place like the suspicious black folder at the head of the coffin. Even after Clive’s good work we’re none the wiser and trying to track down his son David James, didn’t get past the 1/48 birth notice in the Ad. Chronicle. One thing to note is that E.C. Webb is constant in the newspapers while the name ‘Em’ as in Emanuel is restricted to web sites and blogs which makes no sense at all.
…whoops E. J. not E.C., that was Edwin Cyril Johnson WW1 baker and initial SM nominee with a convincing missing finger. Say anyone ever put our man down for a pastry cook, like with his supple hands, clean nails and caster sugar in his trouser cuffs etc.
Edgar Cecil Johnson but who cares so long as we got the right inits.
JS: “News” Adelaide 22 Dec 1947 Page 6,
There was a Mrs E.J. Webb at 155 Wattle St, Malvern, SA
Clive: we can give Mrs. Webb from Malvern the flick, she’d been there since ’37 and still in place to 1950 at least. In that year another E. J. Webb was listed for 47a Smith St. Southwark (Thebarton) which is a more likely candidate for our elusive SAO. That is as far as we need to go with this interesting sideshow I guess unless..
…unless of course our SAO Capt. A. E. & Em Webb? who left Thebarton in ’51 was as C. G. Cramer claims, a Capt. C. J. R. Webb, suspected operative within RAN Commander ‘V’ Long’s espionage network. One that included a team of old school SOE code men. ie., Captains Nave, Harkness (RN), Robert F. B. Wake and another Captain Webb of New Guinea shipping control. Wouldn’t be the first time a man of the cloth had gone undercover, proof coming straight from the horse’s arse, what can I say more than ‘good on you Gordon’…neigh.
Must admit, in spite of GC’s latest charade re C. J. R. Webb being our SAO which is of course untrue, I’m still not convinced that everthing’s Kosher about A.E. & Em’s voluntary role as Salvo MC at the funeral. Sure he was living only a short walk from the cemetery and all, having just occupied one half of a split cottage with a fine Papist couple name of Keane as co tenants; and yet something’s not quite right. Any ideas Dude 74?
.
If it’s of any interest Em’s next door neighbour Francis Edmund Keane hailed from Young NSW, born in 1904, died 1963 and whilst much is known of grandfather Francis from old rural NSW newspapers of the late 1800’s, we know nothing of Frank’s own life, that of his father Francis nor if he hsd a brother Thomas or the like. Our 1948 S & Mc. directory says he was a Mngr. and apart from fathering two kids nothing else crops up. A little thing I did pick up from the ’48 directory is that E. J. (not A.E. sorry) Webb does not get the customary SAO accreditation.
Dusty, old personage …. Was there ever such a thing as a home nursing service back in the day? Young Jessica advertised herself as Sister Thomson in the phone book in 1947 and a neighbour said someone was looking for a nurse who lived in Moseley Street earlier in the piece.
Pb: my suggestion along these very same lines was offered up for discussion in October ’21 on Miscellaneous to the usual unenthusistic response. Try 5/10/21 @ 11.06pm and work either side, will probably have the same effect on you Squire.
….interest in my earlier disclosure that a certain J. Thompson had occupied Sister J.E. Thomson’s former 90a Moseley St. address between 1955 and 1960 was not. If not the missing ‘Sister’ and the initial E. plus an extra p in the surname, the odds for separation would be a million to one against. I recall that a shady former army Ordinance Corps (same as PT) short timer Gerald Tench O’Harra lived next door at 90b mid 50s to ’61 from memory, and so it might pay to see for how long those suspicious Adelaide ads continued beyond the early fifties.
Well, there you go. Thanks
Our Professor seems now to be on the hunt for a red headed Irishman named Keane out of NSW. So what’s new, one’s right there hot off my Samsung. Bloke named Francis Keane, one of a large Irish family from the central west of NSW who lived in Southwark right alongside Salvo Capt. Em Webb and real close to West Terrace. Supposing Frank had a visiting relative that wanted to die on his own terms but, who a needed help with arrangements from a trusted family member. Everything fits the facts eg. Sydney made duds, shirts, briefs and razor etc., or at least nothing detracts in any way…That’s just the sort of harmless conspiracy we don’t need at the moment, hope it doesnt upset Des Bray and his donkey cart.
I think that’s more ABC spin than DA TBH.
I read it something like this:
Journo is looking for most qualified person – surely that’s gotta be someone with the title “Prof” (even if in an unrelated field).
Journo asks DA about spies, and he says “What a load of rubbish”.
Journo says “Why Not?”. DA says “The Keane name and the ginger hair – doesn’t sound very Russian does it? More Irish”.
Journo writes article that DA (“an expert”) is looking for irishmen….
(and manages to get a quote along the lines of “well Russia isn’t the only place in Europe, Russia is too” (Geography is not my forte, but this had me intrigued (leaving out that I think more of Russia is in Asia than Europe) – if we can specifically get a probability that DNA comes from Europe, surely we can get a probability on a more specific area of Europe) – and Russia and Ireland seem to me to be opposite sides of Europe (and at the very least 2 distinctly different regions – no matter how you divide Europe up)).
In any case, I think that’s a bit of a *nothing to see here*
Pb: this’n is just one of several that I’ve quoted from on body measurement checks and balances through the first 24 hour post mortem period. The 2017 paper is by D. Fedoreli entitled Body Length Estimation During The Post Mortem Interval: preliminary study @ ResearchGate..Cramer is well aware of the calculations that put lie to the Federosimov shrinkage claim but, he is not likekey to give an inch so long as his ego holds. PS note bleach & lemon juice solvent is now substituted for a stick of compressed charcoal (pencil) applied to overwritten letter indentations; whence numbers eg., 12340 appear ghostlike from the depths of nothingness. Good on you Gordon!
John Sanders .. it is for these small things we are exceptionally grateful.
Pb: Such small things turn big lies into nothings, I’ll keep hammering away for the sake of Gerry Somerton’s name and certain displeasure at being labeled a soviet spy.
How a bloke can spend so many of his fast declining years disseminating such blatant disinformation, all unchallenged by his readers is beyond belief. What a bunch of boofheads.
A man could weep.
…unchallenged by a few cohorts who knew the con from the outset and yet, never had the moral fibre to come forward and expose the mountain of TS/BS fabrications for what they most certainly were/are. Shades of the time honoured Edmund Burke ‘good men doing nothing’ proverb I’m sad to say.
.
Pb: your mention of Hans Christian Anderson [sic] and his ‘King’s New Clothes’ analogy with another fine exponent of the fairy tale genre in Gordon Cramer, brings to mind two more from Anderson’s collection ‘the most amazing thing’ and ‘the old man is always right’…I kid you not.
It was late, the rum bottle beckoned, Phillip Glass on the earbuds, spaghetti marinara on the bubble, a joint on the round, the weather closing in, rain smashing into the windows, wind howling, the front door locked, the log fire crackling, two dogs asleep under the table, money in the bank, no enemies in sight and you want me to get the spelling right.
I think a lot of the drivel *IS* challenged by readers (if there still are any) – but the comments on the site seem to be audited so that any ideas at risk of questioning that “truth” are seen as trolls or spam and never see the light of day (or at least way back sometime when I was questioning the veracity of the Fedosimov rot, a lot of what I put in never ended on the site – and at one stage he ranted about an anonymous troll loosely quoting something I may have mentioned and implying that everything that had been submitted was a personal slur on him (which was presumably his justification for vetting the comments)….
Can’t speak for others, but I gave up even reading it some time back.
milongal: I try to make everything I post leave the person reading it genuinely better informed for having read it. Good research is really hard to do (and proof is next to impossible), but I do my best, and write up what I find.
At the same time, there are sites out there whose pages only ever seem to leave the reader knowing less than when they started. I simply don’t have words for these.
Are we done now?
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/26/australia/australia-somerton-man-mystery-solved-claim-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
“Chuck Webb”: yes, it seems as though we are finally done… as far as identification of the Somerton Man goes. It’ll be interesting to see what else can be found about Carl “Charles” Webb.
The following article(linked to on Ninja) I thought much better->
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-26/somerton-man-identified-melbourne-born-engineer-researcher-says/101272182
Mark Knowles: given that the mainstream media are all over this story like a rash (and the ABC story is indeed actually pretty good), I’ve jumped on the same overloaded bandwagon with a post more from a researcher’s point of view (i.e. not so damnably journalistic):
http://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/26/somerton-man-identified-as-carl-charles-webb-but-mystery-still-intact
Hi Nick,
Pleased to e-meet you! Just came across your blog.
Are you aware of any searchable databases giving the frequency of word combinations with a given first-letter-sequence in English-language texts or even more specifically in poetry, song lyrics etc. (like “my love is a” for “MLIA” for example)?
Supposed, the letters in the Somerton Man code are the first letters of words in a self-composed poem in the style of the Rubayat quatrains, it will probably be impossible to arrive at the exact poem, since there is not enough information and too many possibilities. It might still be possible though to arrive at more or less likely approximate results by trying out and playing with such frequencies.
What do you think?
Could none of his relatives, his former wife, and father-in-law read newspapers to see his picture? There is something wrong that they couldn’t identify him. All messages about Charlie Webb etc appear after 1941. Yet none before. How did he get to 35 and not be part of some company as an electrical engineer? Why was he not conscripted to the army? Yet the guy in charge of inspecting munitions (his father- in-law) respected him enough to let him marry his daughter.
Carl Webb was a mysterious ghost of a person that nobody could identify.
My personal opinion is Carl was not in Australia until after 1940. He was educated somewhere else – like Germany.
We’re all by now aware that at some point DA was gifted fifty hairs by Sapol to play with not including some depleted ones that he managed to squeeze enough RNA from to enable identification of Robin Thomson’s Virginian forbears. Surely police would have plucked a like number (splitting hairs) for their own DNA type testing when the technology allowed. To confuse the issue it has been suggested that tye death mask creator Paul Lawson, not to be outdone, plucked a number of the choicest live rooted hairs for himself somewhere along the murkey trail of deceit for his personal use. It Seems from a novice perspective there was more SM hair plucked then ever was on his sparsely haired body, as was duly noted by Dr. Dwyer in his post mortem inquest testimony. I guess it’s not unreasonable to consider possibility of contamination at some point, probably earlier than later which could of it’self have led to an unsafe, even false identification whether by accident or contrived as a means to an end. Anyone dare to take a punt on the odds of likely, unlikely, or more likely than not.
John Sanders: now you’re just splitting hairs
Peteb: hear what you say mugger but, how pray tell how does a likely lad like Carl Webb from suburban Melbourne end up on a slab with three old Irish cow pox vacination scars on his left wrist that were in vogue as small pox prevention in the Victorian gold mine towns from the 1850s to pre WW1 and not beyond.
David Morgan: all good points raised bar the last pertaining to likely education in Germany, if one considers his early life in pre WW2 Melbourne where folks were openly hostile to the ‘mark’ and its beligerant origins. On a personal note you didn’t by any chance have a newsagency at Castlecrag by did you?
I have deciphered the code. It relates to a change of angle for a rocket used as a 2-stage targeted missile with an input code at launch and another at separation for a deflection angle change from vertical takeoff to horizontal flight. As such it would have been Top Secret, Woomera based, with connections to America (Nazis and Einstien) and rocket fuels from the UK. Likely dealing with highly volatile fuels and radiation, likely highly involved in nuclear weapons. Little Boy (1950 tests took place with zero PPE). 1945 Nazi V2, 1946 US weapons tech on rocket guidance and electronics.. by 1947 they’re looking at 2 stage guided rockets (see Woomera estb 1947, his death 1948), while letting a few nukes rip. I suspect high-level exposure that was treated by a nurse, with a few people in the know to help him end his time watching the sunset on the beach. … though it could have been espionage, it seems someone/s cared and coudln’t talk about it due to it taking a few more years for 2 Stage guided missiles to launch at Woomera. The ‘code’/calculations are well ahead of its time. His contacts would have been limited, many people died during WW2, many missing. No one who knew him would report him missing, including his wife who was likely looked after for life. Any other person who reported would not match missing persons.
The ‘code’ generally reads:
Rocket Guidance of AB vector, AB Vector Deflection
Missile Launch Input A Origin Vertical
Separation line (input) Weapons Target Blast Initiation Missile Input Path Aggregation Network Electronic Transmission Program
Horizontal angle (drawn) with ‘X’ initiation point
Missile Launch Input at vector point A-B Origin @ Angle vertical (AB) + quarter rotation relative to Vertical Deflection (drawn)
Tangent Trajectory of Missile Targeting System at Moment of Separation, Target Guidance relative to an AB vertical vector.
>>I can do a bunch of sketches and provide a photo of the missile @ Woomera
Carl Webb’s address was 2/63 Bromby Street. This is directly opposite Melbourne Grammar School, which was used as a base for American Marines during World War II (the army and airforce were nearby at Melbourne High School and the Melbourne Barracks). Nearby, on Fawkner Park, there was a women’s signal training camp, where women received training from US and Australian services. Also in the area are the Monterey Apartments, which were used as Melbourne’s equivalent to Bletchley Park – for code breaking activities. This place Carl Webb in proximity to WWII code breaking and intelligence activities. It could explain his American clothing. If the Somerton Man is Carl Webb the mystery deepens, rather than recedes. This has elements of a Warlight story!
It’s time to move to South Australia Mosley Street tell George about Boxall!
Simon Kretschmer: you might have been on the mark, only trouble is that a fair percentage of the encryption wasn’t part of military jargon in 1948 from memory. Sorry…
No wallet and no cash were found on the Somerton Man’s body.
Which is… surprising, given he needed money to buy a train ticket back home.
One of the possible explanations is that he was suicidal and discarded his wallet before dying, maybe as a symbolic gesture or because he wanted to stay anonymous and what was inside his wallet may have helped to identify him.
But is it possible that he was robbed, before or after his death?
A robber steals his wallet and run away. Once he is sure he has not been followed, he takes a look at the wallet. He finds the poetry book inside (it was a small book that could certainly fit inside a wallet.) Oh, what’s this? A book? I don’t need this. And he throws it through the window of a car.
That would explain the absence of wallet/cash and why the book was found in the car.
For Heaven’s sake!
The body was found with lividity all down the back and at the base of the head. The man did not eat a poison pastie and head to the beach for a gentle sunset n ciggie.
He was offed at Jestyn’s and his moth eaten carcass was hauled to the beach and arranged in an approximation of gentle repose. While his gut swelled and congealed into a nasty football of blood sausage.
Please, do read up.
Jeremie Lefebvre: robbery of the Somerton Man’s corpse’s wallet has been suggested many times in the past, particularly by people anxious to keep the notion of the Somerton Man’s death as a ‘Romantic suicide’ in play.
However I think there are more than enough forensic ‘red flags’ to say that there are big problems with that whole scenario.
OK
My idea was that he died of natural causes but was robbed and that would explain the absence of cash and why the book was found in the car (I just mentioned the possibility of a suicide as an alternate explanation. Either he discarded his wallet to die anonymously or he died of natural causes but was robbed)
I’d also be curious to see Australian phonebooks of 1948 to check if the phone number could be from another region. I think that phone numbers were not unique at the national level at the time. That would show that the phone number is not necessarily connected to Jestyn.
Which part wasn’t “military jargon” in 1944?. German rockets, guided missiles, radar, nuclear weapons, radiation, exposure to gas, fuels, experiments on humans, cigarettes for medicine? During the 1950s, South Australia had the most advanced weapons in the World. The testing ground for the nukes, missiles, radar, space rockets. Who and what did they need for that? How do these things get invented and developed? Engineers maybe? .. say …Electrical Engineers to work with guidance systems. Any chance the fella was an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER with a rocket program sequence, in South Australia from 1947 onwards, with links to USA and UK? ..if only there was some sort of code suggesting rockets, missiles, and guidance systems? .. if only something indicated he had Top Secret clearance, scrubbed ID and was a generally well-to-do type fella? Hhhmm?…nah.. he was probably just a homeless man.
Simon: in the electoral rolls, Carl Webb was an “electrical fitter” rather than an electrical engineer – this was misreported from Day One of the current coverage, and has unfortunately been repeated many times since.
Webb then worked (in the 1940s) as an “instrument maker”, but it’s not yet known what kind of instrument he was making.
“t was a top secret code about missile guidance…..on the back page of a book carelessly discarded in a car……doesn’t really wash for mine. For more than 1 reason:
1) Why carry it around in such a manner?
2) Why discard it?
Classified information is generally secured to keep it safe (no matter how obscure it is) not carried around in a crude code that could so easliy be reverse engineered.
I’ll even go one further – it would be incredibly rare for anything even remotely classified to be out in the field with someone unless it were really critical – and in that case there would be contingencies to contain any loss.
I know today is not 1948, but there are strict rules about information classification and how different classifications can (and can’t) be transported, exchanged and secured. Sometimes this is a little over the top (fairly low level classified material can sometimes be shipped through courier, but must be in about 3 envelopes (with only the most nested one showing its classification).
There are stories of tunnels between buildings in Russel to make it possible to transfer highly sensitive material between buildings without ever taking it outside – because outside it would need to adhere to these rules. And having met some of the paranoid people who work in some of those roles I can’t believe too many of them being anything but over cautious with how they handle and transfer sensitive and classified information. Even the non-paranoid ones seem to be overly pedantic about processes – not because they necessarily care about the nature of the information but because they understand the implications to their employment if they leak it….
So if the MLIABO is about missiles, thn I would suggest it’s not very secret information (which begs the question why noone really came to that conclusion sooner).
Jeremie, Yes, there was a telephone number of X3239 also in Melbourne in 1947/8. Look on TROVE for the ads.
Further to my previous message, apparently X3239 was also in NSW, QLD and ACT. See “The Canberra Times” 26 Sep 1958 Page 15-Interesting that a McMahon is selling wood, ring, you guessed it!
Jo:
“Carl Webb’s address was 2/63 Bromby Street…” which, like his previous address, at 274 Domain Rd, happened to be in a densely populated inner suburban area, with lots of flats/apartments. The placing of military units – whether US, Australian or others – in seconded buildings in suburban areas was common in all of the Aus cities (and to my personal knowledge, it also occurred in Sydney, Brisbane and Perth). Mostly it was practical – i.e. congestion and the difficulty of constructing brand new premises in more central areas, during wartime – and partly it was that “quieter” areas, with less motor and foot traffic, were innately better for security. (With specific regard to the US Marines, accommodation was so short that they were initially billeted, on masse, on the open air bench seating at the Melbourne Cricket Ground.) But such areas remained, overwhelmingly, populated by Aus civilians.
David Morgan:
“How did he [CW] get to 35 and not be part of some company as an electrical engineer? Why was he not conscripted to the army?”
To answer your last question first: until the prospect of Japanese expansionism loomed in 1940/41, there wasn’t quite the same level of jingoism that had driven recruiting in WW1. More importantly, people with skills deemed to be in short supply/vital to the war effort, were actively discouraged from enlisting in the services. In mid/late 1940, the Minister for Defence Coordination published a list of “reserved occupations”, members of which were _not_ to be enlisted. Within about six months, some already enlisted servicemen were being compulsorily discharged on the basis of such skills (a process known later as “being manpowered out”, after the Manpower Directorate, which succeeded the Defence Coordination Dept). One example that springs to mind was a fellow manpowered out in the basis that he was an accountant(!) and sent home from army service in early 1941. So the exclusion from enlistment of a 34 to 36 year old instrument maker/electrical fitter on that basis would have been far from unusual.
(fwiw) To me that combination of occupational descriptions (instrument maker/electrical fitter) suggests someone involved in, for instance, the manufacturing of gauges/meters for electrical equipment. (Which could have been as routine as industrial equipment, generators and civilian radio sets, for example.)
If Carl _was_ the teenage “C. Webb” studying engineering (scholarship) at Swinburne Tech night school in 1921/22, and also playing for their U/16 football team, perhaps he had to cut those studies short to help the family out. Or continued them/did an apprenticeship somewhere else. Carl does appear to have at least lived at his parents’ home in Springvale until the early 1930s (i.e. there are brief mentions in the local newspaper.) Yes, the “silence” for 10 years thereafter may have indicated that Carl was working somewhere other than Melbourne, but there were plenty of options for someone with his skills (apart from Germany). “Instrument maker/electrical fitter” was the kind of occupation that would be good cover for a spy … because it was skilled enough to keep Carl out of the forces, but not the metaphorical rocket scientist, who would have been subjected to much greater scrutiny.
In short, while it’s as tempting as ever to infer an espionage angle, we still have zero direct evidence of that.
test
What is central to everything is Prosper McTaggart Simpson. His address is central, 5 minutes walk to where the body was dumped and 5 minutes from Ferry Road where the rubaiyat car dump happens. And what is extraordinary is how he evades the limelight by being billed throughout as Jessica’s bloke. His or their phone number is described as her phone number, his or their place as her place.We know from court cases he’s a crook and we know from his wanted ads he specialises in cars and rifles. Rubaiyat cars is about cars, Broken Hill has a car, a motorbike and a rifle. And there’s two suitcases.
First off I don’t think BH is predominantly about rifle theft because a bog standard second hand rifle isn’t worth that much. I mean, I have no idea about 1948 Australia but they are pretty simple and easily manufactured bits of kit and you can buy lots of models new in Australia today starting at 800 AusD. Why steal a motorbike to steal a rifle, and fail to monetise the motorbike? And it is surely unusual to fence on credit: you sell as seen for cash. If PMT wants to view the goods he has cars at his disposal, SM ex hypothesi does not, so he can drive to BH and view the piece before buying. Note that Pruszinksi gets fined for car theft, no mention of theft or illegal possession of firearms.
Also rifles are not made of porcelain, they are pretty robust things. if it were me I’d disassemble the thing, wrap each part once in something thick and strap them to me or the bike. Much less visible and suspicious than that size suitcase on a bike.
So, my guess: Pruszinksi is doing a delivery of SM’s luggage to PMT, they fallout over the fee and he goes off in a huff and trashes everything (because otherwise why dump the bike? Why not ride it back instead of walk 12 miles, nick a car and get caught?)
So what about Rubaiyat car theory? It is a nonstarter that the Rubaiyat is a car-identifier because 1. that works if you squirrel the ID deep in the car’s innards, but if you leave it on the back seaqt or floor it lasts about 3 minutes and 2. it’s irrelevant anyway, in a Thomson vs Wotsername situation the identity of the car is not in dispute, it’s how much was (illegally) agreed to be paid for it which is. And 3. unless car owner is 100% blameless in every single aspect of his life the overwhelmingly sensible thing to do with the book is burn it.
So what about TAMAM SHUD? well: it is I now realise over the top to regard this as an indenture, charterparty (charte partie), tear a 100$ bill in half and match the halves up, sort of situation. Equally you want something less reproducible than just the password itself cos anyone can write that down. So your halfway house is the torn out slip which you know the recipient will recognise as the right sort of paper, typeface etc. in days when you’d need access to a full on printworks to duplicate it. So once torn out, the rest of the book is valueless, it is not needed as half of the key. So you drop it in the street, or dispose of it in the first opening you come to which happens to be a car window.
And what SM proposed to do with the slip, will be a mystery forever.
A photograph of Carl Webb a8 from his sister’s wedding has been posted as a reply to a post, today 2nd September2022, at Professor Abbott’s Facebook page The Somerton Man. A photograph of Richard August Webb next to his business delivery truck has also been posted as a reply to a post.
Wowee, I’d love to see that photo of Richard August Webb next to his delivery truck, can you post it here or lead the way on the yellow brick road to find? Good on ya Curio and thank you for sharing the info. I feel like I’ve crossed the line into complete and utter obsession with this case, but hey, what can one do, it’s completely fascinating, is it not? I poked around on the facebook but couldn’t find it, alas.
@mary https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-1-332362301-1-504569/richard-august-webb-weber-in-myheritage-family-trees
@mary, The photo of RW next to his delivery truck is indeed on Abbott’s Somerton Facebook page. I have it on my desktop but cannot post photos here as far as I know…
I believe this may be Doris Webb at the same wedding in 1923 as Carl. His sister Freda’s wedding.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QNEPkrwHQU1WRVWSwEyZfx_GXM7gMR1k/view?usp=sharing
Didn’t his sister Freda get married in 1915?
Wasn’t it Doris Maud that got married in 1923?
Is this a picture of Doris Maud at her own wedding?
Freda (Webb). Keane’s son Leo was a script writer. There is a photo of him in this article and he looks a bit like Carl…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206215176?searchTerm=%22Leo%20Keane%22
There are four files for him at the NAA. They are all open but none of them have been accessed.
@misca,
So Leo Keane was writing scripts for Sports Parade and Vernon Lisle (the compere) who was in Swinburne with Carl using his real name Lisle Clegg. A very small world.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248094149?searchTerm=%22sports%20parade%22%2C%20%22vernon%20lisle%22
…might explain the white tie…
Why when I Google Carl Web The Somerton Man do I get so many images of his dead body
https://www.google.com/search?q=carl+webb+the+somerton+man&tbm=isch&ictx=1&tbs=rimg:CYBHy2AJmHLAIgiAR8tgCZhywCoSCYBHy2AJmHLAEYcFf7DrpVsQ&hl=en-GB&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDhaWYg5L6AhVdg2oFHfqbA0gQiRx6BAgAEAQ&biw=1903&bih=937
I there no respect for the poor guy?
No, there isn’t any respect. I happen to be in possession of another set of photographs of the autopsy. I’ve kept these secret until now (29 years and counting) and I will release them when the time is right. Because I happen to know that Carl Webb – who was a great, great uncle to me – was a deviant and a child molestor. My grandmother always told me about uncle Charlie and would invariably add ‘and the less said about him, the better’.
Suffice to say, I know from the autopsy photos that the pictures of Carl Webb were taken BEFORE (not after!) his autopsy and that his so called ‘anodontia’ was simply a case of broken or rotten lateral incisors.
I’m sure nobody will take this seriously but there it is. He was a kiddy fiddler.
Eleanor to clarify were there any charges laid against Charles ?
Did family members recognise him as the Somerton Man and opt to be silent?
Do you know what happened to his wife Dorothy ?
Is it true he was married to another person before Dorothy ?
@Eleanor Hill, I think you are right; No one with any sense is going to take you seriously.
You seem to be someone who is seeking attention and nothing more. “When the time is right”?? Seriously?? The man is dead. There is no harm in releasing anything that might clarify his story at this point. I for one do not believe that you have any significant information, and certainly NOT the ‘autopsy photos’. Those are not just randomly available to anyone, family included.
I think the old saying is “put up or shut up”….
Further to Sally’s, and Mary Spencer’s responses Carl Web aka The Somerton Man died 70 years ago so why have you only been keeping the secret for 29 years ?
Was it passed on to you as an ongoing family secret that went from generation to to generation and yet none of you felt the need or moral responsibility to pass the info on to police instead letting them waste huge amounts of public money on ongoing investigations ?
If he was a ‘kiddy fiddler’ as you allege that info could have been used to identify colleagues and friends who were of similar mind and the police could have shut them down. By staying silent you and your elder relatives potentially let poor children suffer ongoing abuse.
The Beatles song Elanor Rigby came to mind when I saw you name and it seems pertinent:
“Eleanor Rigby
Picks up the rice in the church where a wedding has been
Lives in a dream”
Re: Eleanor Hill, Along with Nick’s great responses and excellent points, it’s a shame that this person feels the need to post such stuff here. Everyone here who has been following the SM case for years and has such dedicated interest in it has done so much to help bring the mystery to it’s conclusion. Sure, everyone has a theory, and there may be some wild ideas, but I admire all of the commenters here. They have done some amazing research and shared it with all of us. They sincerely want to know what Carl’s true story is, and how he came to die on Somerton Beach. Then “Eleanor Hill” comes along and flamboyantly states that she has “autopsy photos” and accuses Carl of being a pedophile, but will not produce any scrap of evidence to back up her claims. I believe it is because she cannot—And no one deserves to have such an accusation leveled at them without proof. Carl is dead and cannot defend himself. All of the great commenters here do and try whatever they can to find the REAL, TRUE story of Carl Webb, and tell it. They provide links from all of their painstaking research. If Carl is guilty of such a heinous crime, as Nick says, it should have been brought to light years and years ago, with substantiation. If Carl is innocent (as I suspect), then he does not deserve to have his name and character posthumously blackened by someone who is gutless and irresponsible.
On another matter completely … when was Jessica Harkness identified by name the first time, anyone?
PB There was an in crowd that had worked it out for themselves but were keeping it under wraps however it would leak out from time to time. I was pretty sure Id worked it out about a year or so prior it going public but I distinctly remember a post here (from Nick I Think ) where he says paraphrasing ‘I think a consensus has been reached that we are going to be open about Jess Harkness being Jestyn”. I reckon that was around 2014 but someone may have a more accurate account.
Mary Spencer you’ve gotta tray and ignore that stuff as hard as it is.
“Eleanor” is unlikely to be a “she” and is just your standard troll who would be thriving on your response knowing they got under your skin. That post were full of holes well covered by Nick P in his response.
dude47—I do dismiss the trolls. I have a right to state my opinion here just like everyone else. Please do not make assumptions that “she is getting under [my] skin”, or about what I am or am not “ignoring”. Nick did indeed have a great response to “Eleanor”, but any of us here also have a right to respond as well—And without presumptions or judgements.
No judgments or assumptions here Mary nor offence intended just some friendly advice.
You do have a right to state your opinions and I actually agree with everything you said in your response.
I just think that the best response to trolls in no response at all. As much as I thought Nicks response was spot on I would say the same to him. Why bother ? When it comes to trolls I say give them nothing.
dude47 / Mary Spencer: it was actually a commenter called “Nick” (i.e. not me at all!) who wolfed down “Eleanor”‘s bait. :-/
Thanks Dude … which leads me to another question. What do you think was the basis for Prof. Cleland’ interest in obtaining a portion of Webb’s brain?
What do you think, [cheap generic bald insult], got an opinion?
Thanks for the clarification NP
Sorry to confuse everyone.
Just an observer, very late to the topic.
Have included by surname initial for clarity,
Thanks Nick B !!
@Eleanor Hill Due to the recent news about The Somerton Man being Carl Webb/Webber, my Australian Webb/Webber cousins have been putting their DNA up on Websites like Ancestry dot com . Your name does not appear as a match for any of that family.
Just a quick post in here seeing the Beaumont thread is gone.
If I had a spare $100 I would put it on Eleanor Hill being none other than Rachel Vaughan!!
My apologies to Nick, the Beaumont thread is back, I must have had gremlins in my system lol
The Rubaiyat note interpretation: The Tremiti meeting.
My interpretation concerns the cryptic note written in the copy of the book Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam that is part of the inventory of the Taman Shud case. I would like to share this since I believe it is a newsworthy, almost complete interpretation of the Rubaiyat note.
If “M” stands for “Mister”, it would logically be followed by a last name. Indeed, each line that starts with an “M” contains a string that consists of a last name: “Goabab”, “Liao”, “Bimpanet” and “Liabo”, which are African and Asian last names (Namibian, Chinese, Kenyan and Congolese). This would make it a contact list, with the other letters possibly initials, status or affiliation.
The next that strongly stands out is that the string “samstgab” seems to be a very recognisable abbreviated word, namely “Samstagabend”, which is German for Saturday evening. It also suggests that the writer’s native language was German.
This suggests that the message is not a code, but some sort of quick note with names, date and time which resembles a meeting note. The remaining letters therefore could indicate an abbreviation of a meeting location or event (such as a conference).
Indeed, “ITTMT” is a sea port code, standing for Italy, Tremiti. The Tremiti Archipelago was a confinement colony which was also used in WW2. After the war, it became popular as a tourist and diving location for its clear waters.
“AI AQC” most likely refers to Mr. Liabo, since it is written behind it, but seen the length of the string it is unlikely to be initials. It therefore more likely refers to a status or affiliation, like the letters D, I and P behind the other names.
Summarising, the note could, written in full, go something like the following:
“Mr. R. Goabab D
Mr. Liao I
Mr. T. Bimpanet. P
Mr. Liabo AI AQC
Italy, port Tremiti Samstagabend”
@Sandra P. Van Tongeren, I don’t much like it:
– If they were all Mr, why bother with the ‘M’ at all (and why ‘M’ instead of ‘Mr’….or to a German-speaker ‘Herr’
– Why are some initials before the name, some after the name, and some both
– Can’t find a surname Bimpanet (although oddly enough found evidence of the others existing in different parts of the world)
– AFAIK the LOCODES that identify ITTMT as Tremitiare more recent (maybe late 70s?)
– Why is a code in German about an Italian port in Australia?
And probably a lot of other things.
Incidentally, the QC (in this sort of a context) make me think ‘Queen’s Counsel’ – but I don’t think an A prefix on that works (I don’t think ‘Assistant’ or ‘Acting’ are very likely in that context – and as others have pointed out before, in 1948 there wouldn’t have been any QC’s – they would have been King’s Counsel….).
@ Sandra Van T
The only context I can think for for these names, Samstagabend and 1948 is South Africa and the May 1948 election, won by the HNP, defeating Jan Smuts and United Party. This of course led to the formalisation of the Apartheid policy and also politically annexing Namibia. There were International Court of Justice discussions on South Africa’s control of Namibia (a German colony prior to WWI) in 1949… Samstagabend could be German or Afrikaans…
Interesting if this message could be related back to a historical evacuation or meeting, or even something in the Court of Justice discussions…
@ Sandra Van T
Could this interpretation could also relate to merchant shipping? The main shipping routes to Australia were either via the Mediterranean and the Suez Canal or around South Africa. I don’t know whether ships took on African or South African crews, but British merchant ships passing through the Suez Canal in the 1950s and 60s often swapped British for Indian crew in Aden, before travelling onwards, as they could be paid less!
@ milongal
– In the past, it was custom to adress everyone much more formally with “Mr”. Germans in particular are more strict in that. For an english speaker with a German background, such as Carl Webb, it would not be unusual to use both Mr and samstagabend in the same note.
– The surname Bimpanet seems to be a rare Kenyan name, and can for instance be found through a Google search in a news article in the African journal The Standard.
– As I mentioned in my previous post, the letters behind the names more likely refer to a status or affiliation.
– Sea port codes may already have been in use for a long time before they were finally internationally assembled in LOCODE.
@ Jo
The African and Asian names are very interesting indeed! But my knowledge on African history is limited, so others might be more able to place these names in a historical context. There are several other contexts that may also be possible. One is a possible connection of these people with the confinement colony on Tremiti during or before WW2. Another context may be that of tourists visiting the Tremiti Archipelago. There may be more information to be found in the Archives that can substantiate any of these contexts.
@ Jo
It could indeed relate to merchant shipping but it is also possible that it relates to private shipping.
There are numerous indications that Carl Webb was involved in nautical activities, and the ITTMT sea port reference is another one. This makes a person more difficult to trace in for instance the Archives. Based on the observations that I posted below, I also suspect that it is possible that he was active in (free)diving. Also, that he may have been in the process of buying a private boat or yacht in Glenelg. This may also explain both the telephone number of a bank and that of the Thomsons in the copy of the Rubaiyat.
Whereabouts before Nov 30th 1948 : Indications of nautical and travelling activities.
• An observation made from the coroner’s inquest is the combination of good muscular physique, developed calve muscles, enlarged spleen, suntan from probable profession and clean nails. These characteristics fit well with the description of a trained swimmer and more particularly, a (free)diver. Divers need to do workouts, training especially their calves. Diving may also affect the teeth. The 1940’s were innovative in the development of modern underwater diving. An enlarged spleen may fit well with long lasting freediving activities, especially in the beginning of this development. It may also be investigated whether Carl Webb’s death may have resulted from a diving disorder such as DCS (decompression sickness).
• Somerton Beach indeed seems like an excellent location for diving activities, and so does the Tremiti archipelago.
• Carl had been to a beach right before arriving in Adelaide, since there was still sand in his trousers in the suitcase.
• Through the Rubaiyat book there is another weak link of Carl with nautical activities and that he engaged near the circles of naval army personnel such as Alfred Boxall. Both copies of the book are linked through the Thomsons, since Ms Thomson gave one copy to Mr. Boxall and their phone number was in Carl’s copy.
• Another observation is the presence of a stencilling brush that was found in his suitcase, usually used for stencilling cargo on a ship, according to detective Brown. To obtain the brush, he must have been into contact with crew from a ship, another link to nautical circles. To take the brush, the piece of zinc and a screwdriver in his private suitcase points to the private use of these items. The brush could for instance be used to stencil the name of a private boat, perhaps his own. Stencilling the name of a boat usually means the boat was just bought, which probably had to have been registered.
• Another observation is Carl’s travelling pattern, giving indications to his whereabouts. In his suitcase were several letter cards and envelopes, indicating that he was travelling for a longer period of time. His activities could have been seasonal, since the summer seasons are different between the European (~27 March) and Australian (December 1st) continents. He wore clothes fit for a colder climate than in Adelaide at November 30th, such as in the Northern hemisphere, and arrived just before the start of the summer season in Adelaide.
Whereabouts around Nov 30th 1948: Indications for stay at Henley Beach and appointment near Patawalonga boat haven.
• Right after arriving in Adelaide railway station, Carl Webb did not check in with a place to stay, such as a hotel or with an acquaintance, did not use his ticket to Henley Beach and left his suitcase at the railway station cloak room. This means he intended to return there later to pick up his suitcase. It means he either did not intend to spend the night in Adelaide and travel further later, or since he had an unused ticket to Henley Beach, more likely that he intended to stay at Henley Beach. Also, if he indeed intended to stay in Henley Beach, it probably was the closest to the location to where he would have his activities and where more could be investigated about his whereabouts: place of residence (naval lodgement?), diving locations, clubs or institutes, boat rentals, etc.
• Most hotels nowadays require checking in before a certain time in the morning, however Carl made it a higher priority to go to another location first. Because it had a higher priority than checking in at his place of stay, this points to an appointment of some sort. This may also mean he did not stay in a hotel at Henley Beach, but at a private location such as with acquaintances, at his own property or at a boat. The Rubaiyat book was found in a parked car near the Glenelg Pier Hotel. He therefore most likely had an appointment near Glenelg Pier or the Patawalonga boat haven.
Correction: the summer season in Europe starts at 21 June, ofcourse.
I think the person on facebook who said that the so called ‘code’ in Carl’s Rubaiyat are most likely his jottings regarding trying to solve a newspaper puzzle, of which he was so fond. I completely agree.
Just posted the following on the “First photo of Carl Webb” page, but I feel like it might be quite relevant to the overall mystery so I’ll put it here too (with a couple modifications to help with context)…
Browsing through others’ submitted school team photos on this page, I was taken aback by the very stylized W on the name board each time the sign appears: sometimes just within the word “Swinburne” (the Melbourne college of one properly-aged C. Webb, who did take Engineering there), though in at least one case it’s every W on the whole sign. It always appears at least once: within the college’s name. I think that the letter bears a striking resemblance to those in-between looking ones on the Rubaiyat page. Seeing that there are no other, clear examples of the letter W among the page’s jumble, perhaps that’s the only thing those strange scratchings are meant to be. Maybe it was just Webb’s signature way of writing Ws… a style he picked up in school? A nod to his alma mater, perhaps?
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg
Perhaps I’m late to the party with this, but I don’t recall having heard talk of it before…
@Mary
We don’t know who the writer of the note is. It’s also possible they are the jottings of a person whom Carl had the book from.
Sandra P. van Tongeren:
As Jo has helped point out elsewhere, I think that the “Swinburne W” observation helps support several ideas (perhaps also together with the W in Carl Webb’s signature from his marriage certificate): that TSM is the Webb from Swinburne, that the two strange letters found in the Rubaiyat are simply Ws, and that Carl is the one who wrote them (though I suppose it could have been anyone else who was aware of the style, or the letters could mean something else entirely).
@Jamie:
I do believe TSM is the Webb from Swinburne, simply because he is very recognisable from the picture. But I agree, it is a similar lettertype. Maybe Carl wrote M in a similar way as W?
But focussing too much on whether they are M/W ‘s in the note is very distracting from solving it. You can also turn it around: its a fact that each of the first 4 lines contains a string that is a surname (Goabab, Liao, Bimpanet and Liabo), like I posted above, so they are most likely M’s standing for mister or mein Herr.
But what is the meaning of these 4 surnames? Were they sailors? Tourists? Politicians? What is their possible connection with Tremiti?
If ITTMT indeed stands for Tremiti, the note must have been written by someone who knew how to use seaport codes, who also went there and met with these 4 other persons.
Was the note someone else’s jottings or did Carl write the note? If Carl wrote the note, he at some point in time could have been travelling to Tremiti, by boat/yacht. This might explain -partially- where he went when he went missing and is supported by several observations of nautical activities. that I mentioned above.
Sandra P. van Tongeren:
I certainly don’t profess to have any idea what the code might mean as a whole… but I think that in order to understand it, it would be useful to identify exactly what the symbols within it are meant to be and, as you’ve stated, just who it was that wrote it (hence I shared the observation).
In reply to Petebowes, when my son had his autopsy done in late April 2017 they kept part of his brain as well, I spoke to the coroner at the time and he said it was part of the teaching process for medical students wanting to go further into their studies on the human anatomy..
“Petebowes on September 19, 2022 at 10:29 pm said:
Thanks Dude … which leads me to another question. What do you think was the basis for Prof. Cleland’ interest in obtaining a portion of Webb’s brain?
What do you think, [cheap generic bald insult], got an opinion?”
I found something else interesting. The string “AI AQC” in the Tremiti meeting context could be explained by being another seaport code, which should consist of 5 letters. Yet, there isn’t such a seaport code. Since the note was traced over by detectives, it is possible that it was not traced over correctly. If it were to be an australian seaport code, it should start with AU. With some good will, indeed a “U” can be decerned in place of the traced over “I”. It would then read “AUAQC”. Looking through the australian seaport code list, there is one very similar to that: “AUSQC”. It appears to be that of the seaport Southern Cross, in….Melbourne! The Tremiti meeting interpretation would then have been about a boat trip from Melbourne, Australia to Tremiti, Italy.
I will continue tossing in my observations. There are several pieces of circumstantial evidence that can be identified:
Firstly, one of the two poisons that was suggested in the coronial inquest to be the most likely candidate for poisoning was ouabain (strophanthin), an african arrow poison. This is an extremely hazardous substance, a very strong fast acting poison that can kill a large animal within 20 minutes: about the time it takes to drop the book and run from Glenelg Jetty to Somerton Beach. The african names named in the Tremiti interpretation support the theory of poisoning with an african arrow poison: african names, african poison.
Secondly, an arrowhead could indeed explain the mode of administration of the ouabain: the pathologist mentioned blood stains in the neck of the suit (from a stab?) and in the shirt, and of fresh scratches/cuts in between the knuckles at the back of the hand. Such scratches can occur when reaching in defence for the area where one is sliced/stabbed (eg the neck). An arrowhead may cause such sharp wounds. It may also mean that he was sliced/stabbed more than once.
The poison theory is starting to gain more credibility as such. We now possibly have names, locations and connection to naval activity to follow up. In addition, there are several other indications that Carl was involved in naval activities, possibly even in diving, to support this. He may have taken on a job as electrical engineer on a ship or shipwharf, or bought his own boat/yacht. After all he practically lived near a harbor. Is it possible to find more information on the names mentioned in the Tremiti interpretation and said ship journey?
Thirdly, it could be productive too to revise all documents available, especially notes, to review this case. Personally I am very interested in finding back the referral -if I correctly recall-, to a black powder found on the collar of the shirt, for it may have been a residue of the ouabain toxin.
To add to the above, it may be possible to detect a poison in suspected wounds or stains on clothes even after decades, which would be the ultimate proof of poisoning in this case.
Concerning the utility truck, which Peter Bowes on his website https://tomsbytwo.com/ recently also pointed to, I have some reservations too:
Imagine the following of two possible scenarios. In the first scenario, if he was poisoned with an arrowhead while walking freely near the jetty, where the Rubaiyat was also found, and dropped the Rubaiyat in the truck while starting to feel unwell, he could have asked anyone for help as soon as he realised he was poisoned. But apparently, that did not happen, so that scenario can more or less be ruled out.
However, in another scenario, the Rubaiyat copy could, instead of just having been thrown/dropped in the truck, also have been lost from Carl Webb if he was kidnapped in the back of it and dumped at Somerton Beach. Hence the freshly polished shoes and cigarette that -suspiciously- did not scorch his cheek or shirt. He had to, already poisoned, have had time to tear out the “Tamam Shud” (Finished) paper pointing to the copy of the Rubaiyat and the hidden message in it, and hide it such that only a pathologist would be able to find it. A desperate last attempt to point to his killers. The message seems to be very important and give indications to how he was “finished”. But if his hands were free to tear out the paper, why couldnt he jump out? How could one pull off something like this? Or why does the owner/user of the car/truck seem to have had a clear alibi and was he kept anonymous?
With respect, where would one obtain ouabain (strophanthin), an african arrow poison in Australia?
And now he has been named, does it really matter how or why he died?
Sandra P. van Tongeren: you’re trying too hard and not making any inroads it seems so welcome to the colonel’s club…by the way Clelend didn’t perform the autopsy, Dwyer did. If you examine JBC’s notes, nothing points to the worn coat having bloodststains, that’s playing on scenes you’d like to see for linking with your code decipherment. Also the part about the Rubaiyat having been tossed into a utility truck (Pete’s green ’48 Fargo), that was noted first on another dedicated site back in November 2019 so nothing new there.
There were bloodstains in his clothing that may point to how he was poisoned, and there were also fresh cuts in between the knuckles. As it seems quite a few people have not noticed the handwritten notes that I referred to concerning the bloodstains, it is important to point out they exist for they may contain more info that was not noticed before. The handwritten notes are added at the end of the file, which does not show who the writer is. However it seems to be a report of detective Brown for the coronial inquest, since at the top the writer refers to his cooperation with detective Leane (which Brown did).
>>FACT<< There is a mention of bloodstains on the neck of the suit and a large one in the arch of the shirt, and a tear in the latter in these notes:
In note A it reads:
"Dwyer.
…
Stain in [unreadible] blood in back of neck in back of
shirt (no stain in coat)
? From stab
Who undressed him?
…"
In note B there also seem to be specific references to the version of the Rubaiyat.
In note C it reads:
"…
Shirt – large blood tinted stain in arch of shirt near tip
in one side [unreadible] of a tear
…"
Link to the pdf file on strangeoutdoors.com:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yFWG-kelPmm4mzHIoE8Xn8vqGD0Uj5Vj/view?fbclid=IwAR1vVAfTHrf9a8Nbe1UDp2bawK8Il_qEs57s8gEgB32-Mcu2nM8lmCGhIM4
@ Deni:
Exactly, ouabain is extremely hard to obtain in Australia or any other continent outside of Africa. So an african arrow poison would have to have been taken from abroad, most likely on an african arrow. It is so hazardous that it was not even dared to be named out loud in the coronial inquest, but written on a piece of paper together with the other probable poison that could have caused CW's death. Back then, they did not have the modern analysis methods to detect ouabain that we have now. The ouabain poison also has some variants, depending on the area in Africa from where it originates. So if it were to be detected by modern methods, the results of the analysis could even provide information on which area in Africa it originated from.
In the Tremiti meeting interpretation, there are 3 african surnames (Goabab=Namibian, Bimpanet= Kenyan and Liabo=Congolese) named which can indicate that a poisoned arrowhead was introduced into Australia via them.
It was asked above, where the Bimpanet surname can be found. It seems to be a rare Kenyan surname, an example of which can be found in the following article in the african journal The Standard. The brother of the "Doomsday prophet" is called Mr Joseph Bimpanet:
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/rift-valley/article/2000145732/house-of-yahwehs-doomsday-prophet-dies
Correction: the handwritten notes do not mention “suit”, but twice “shirt”. Hard to read.
The following swimmer C. Webb closely fits the profile of Carl Webb of being tanned, muscular, developed calves, enlarged spleen from possible diving activities and engagement in water/sea activities. He made the fastest time for men at the trans-Derwent Hobart Regatta swimming race with 24 min 4 sec on 3 februari 1930. There are numerous pictures and video’s on this event to be found on the internet, so it could be possible to follow up on this line:
https://books.google.nl/books?id=1AdFAAAAIBAJ&lpg=PA26&dq=%22C.%20Webb%22&hl=nl&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q=%22Webb%22&f=false
According to https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51726187 , C. Webb was a member of South Esk Swimming Club.
C.Webb, from Hobart, in 1926, competing at the Annual Championship Carnival, for South Esk Amateur Club.
Link… https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/153726032?searchTerm=webb%20esk%20club#
The above article is from The Age | 5 februari 1930, page 19 with the heading of HOBART REGATTA.
OK, so unless he lived in Hobard around 1930 we can rule this one out. In december 1948 there were yacht races/ a regatta in Glenelg as well, still taking note of that.
@ Sandra van T
There is a Charles Webb in Tasmania who did coast guard duty during WWII, these references might be for him….
Trying to get the facts straight. There has been mentioned that Carl liked to bet on horse races, however in the Dorothy Webb affidavit I only read “The respondent used to bet on the races”. Where is the reference to horses? Can horse races be a wrong assumption?
Could it also mean he used to bet on another sort of races instead, like yacht races?
Sandra….it might be significant that at one time Carl lived close to Mooney Valley race course (horses) and, in one or two of his? ads, I recall the stipulation ‘before 11am Saturday’ which would have concided with the Saturday afternoon first race around noon.
New Doco on Australian Story:
Article on ABC News today:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-21/somerton-manfamily-photographs-revealed-/101643524?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web
Peteb: before the show starts (can’t get it here) your site picture post just up is suggestive of tampering ‘photo shopped’ ie. Chas. in the group shot with the tree over his left shoulder and one with the family. Seems to be the same frame image.
I have to report that the ABC Webb photo album has given me more problems than answers.
Facial ID says Carl is the deceased body on the beach. Charlie is the clay death mask,
But I am unable to prove Carl = Charlie with facial ID.
ABC need to go back to scan the Webb photo album at the highest quality so matches can be proved/disproved with facial ID.
The good news is Roy is always Roy.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K8dVB_avhJynyJvbRQtKxIOVvNFb_mGz/view?usp=sharing
@John He also lived near the AUSQC harbor, so there goes any significance.
Great ABC docu by the way, and fantastic that the family cooperated in the search. My hunch still is Carl was into watersports/ watertourism/seafare. I did notice some similarities with the family as well: the teeth, the watersports.
@David Could it have to do with the angle at which the photographs were taken? He is recognisable from those pictures to me, especially by the shape of his ears and eyes.
I’ve just finished with the ABC (actually I haven’t…Brocky is on the box), but by I thought I’d head over to conspiracymysteries.com
IMO photos haven’t been tampered with, and facial recognition on a 2D image with no context is not going to match a dead man. Personally I have an extensive background in the security game, and I attend a lot of industry shows and manage many projects. My experience is the top tier product is approaching 90% accuracy at determining that an individual in frame is the same as an individual who has been in frame previously, and that is with high spec hardware. That algorithm requires multiple frames for assessment (essentially it’s 3D built from multiple 2D frames). It’s not going to match against a static 2D B&W photo at low resolution, certainly not with any real precision.
I have had a response from a famous facial ID expert to say Carl is Charlie, It is a low score match but likely because of image quality.
MXFACE may have set the confidence bar higher than 0.5 for a match.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AdPGP7fsoYODhrf53WvNT_9gX6zK2K6J/view?usp=sharing
I have been trying to find some more information on the Australian Southern Cross seaport code AUSQC, that is listed in several detailed online seaport code databases such as the one below:
https://freightanchor.com/resources-sea-ports-codes?fbclid=IwAR17QMKHjleeYe6p-m2RoivJIf5EV2zz1qP7kcg60DA-e9gGoPLKRIZKTlo
This seaport is a bit curious though, for I have some questions about it:
Where is port Southern Cross located exactly? Secondly, what sort of seaport is it: commercial, small local, tourist?
There are two interesting seaport codes listed:
– AUMEL, standing for Australia, Melbourne, or port Melbourne.
– AUSQC, standing for Australia, Southern Cross.
While port Melbourne is indicated very clearly on Google maps, port Southern Cross is not. Presumably port Southern Cross would be in the Melbourne area where more locations are referencing to Southern Cross: Southern Cross Station, Southern Cross University, Southern Cross Marine Supplies, etc. Also, port Southern Cross is not mentioned on every seaport code list which may indicate that it is a smaller or private seaport. Could it be the private harbor of a shipping company with a similar name?
As I noticed, the source of these seaport code databases that include AUSQC is that of the United Nations Code for Trade and Transport Locations (UN/LOCODE):
https://service.unece.org/trade/locode/au.htm
From that source however, it appears that AUSQC is not a seaport code, but the airport code of Southern Cross, WA.
As it appears, the AUSQC and ITTMT port codes that were mentioned above are both confusingly being listed in several online seaport code databases as seaports. However on closer inspection AUSQC appears to be an airport.
Checking out these codes in more detail at the source of these databases, the UNECE (UN/LOCODE)
https://tfig.unece.org/contents/recommendation-16.htm
this gives the following information:
AUSQC/Southern Cross/Southern Cross/WA/—4—-/AI/9912
and
ITTMT/FG/1——-/AI/2007/4207N01529E
Looking this up,
AUSQC reads Southern Cross, subdivision WA (West Australia), airport, Australia
ITTMT reads Isole Tremiti, subdivision FG (Foggia), port, Italy
Where port can be any kind of waterborne transport.
@Lurch,
Facial ID with 2D stills has been around a long time with MS Azure, MXFACE, Yandex and many others.
Pimeyes can be used to search with a 2D image for other exact-matching or near-matching images.
Betaface can be used to search for near-matching images. If you use the other products above you can tediously check each image for a match.
Those expensive security products like you say extracts stills. More than likely some combine frames to create an average image of the person.
we still don’t know who has the picture of Carl at a wedding aged about 18.
David:
Source – https://www.csis.org/blogs/technology-policy-blog/how-accurate-are-facial-recognition-systems-–-and-why-does-it-matter
Facial recognition:
“Facial recognition systems are a sub-field of AI technology that can identify individuals from images and video based on an analysis of their facial features. Today, facial recognition systems are powered by deep learning, a form of AI that operates by passing inputs through multiple stacked layers of simulated neurons in order to process information. These neural networks are trained on thousands or even millions of examples of the types of problems the system is likely to encounter, allowing the model to “learn” how to correctly identify patterns from the data. Facial recognition systems use this method to isolate certain features of a face that has been detected in an image—like the distance between certain features, the texture of an individual’s skin, or even the thermal profile of a face—and compare the resulting facial profile to other known faces to identify the person.”
Also regarding accuracy:
In ideal conditions, facial recognition systems can have near-perfect accuracy. Verification algorithms used to match subjects to clear reference images (like a passport photo or mugshot) can achieve accuracy scores as high as 99.97% on standard assessments like NIST’s Facial Recognition Vendor Test (FRVT).[2] This is comparable to the best results of iris scanners.[3] This kind of face verification has become so reliable that even banks feel comfortable relying on it to log users into their accounts.
“However, this degree of accuracy is only possible in ideal conditions where there is consistency in lighting and positioning, and where the facial features of the subjects are clear and unobscured. In real world deployments, accuracy rates tend to be far lower. For example, the FRVT found that the error rate for one leading algorithm climbed from 0.1% when matching against high-quality mugshots to 9.3% when matching instead to pictures of individuals captured “in the wild,” where the subject may not be looking directly at the camera or may be obscured by objects or shadows.[4] Ageing is another factor that can severely impact error rates, as changes in subjects’ faces over time can make it difficult to match pictures taken many years apart. NIST’s FRVT found that many middle-tier algorithms showed error rates increasing by almost a factor of 10 when attempting to match to photos taken 18 years prior.“
At best you are comparing 2x ‘in the wild’ images, B&W, different lighting and shadows, poor focus, movement and it is turning your industry leading AI algorithm outcome from 0.1% to 9.3% inaccuracy. Now you’re adding 18 years difference to the 2x ‘in the wild’ photos to apply a ten fold inaccuracy level. Yep, 93% inaccurate at best.
Trust the expert that tells you it’s the same person. Software can’t get me to my appointment on time, but my missus can.
Russell Webb has a Rusky doppelganger.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVNDKLaiojxWy_8tJG-JmbGwB9vhcg6G/view?usp=sharing
I find the Swinburne photo of Charles on the football team much more satisfying as a connection than the two photos on last night’s program. (Not implying that the newer photos aren’t legitimate)>. Are they stating that the family pics are from the same year? 1921?
Lurch: rather impressive qualifications and thanks for your service. OK for facial recognition that you spek of but that’s not the problem we’re dealing with here; it’s to do with the suspiciously well preserved 100 year old Webb family album (sans Swinburne footy photos). What we have here is an easily overlooked though not so cleverly presented ‘photo shopped’ series of claimed 1920’s group pics in which at least two’Charlie’ images appearing in mixed gathering and family shots with different background scenes does not appear to alter. I’m ain’t no expert and unlike yourself I’ve not had much to do with modern high tech security gear you mention; just a pair of tired old peepers that can still pick a fake photo from an original single frame pe digital exposure…now there’s a though!
Sandra P.vT.
Your mention of the C. Webb Adelaide beach suicide in 1890 in discussion with Lachlan Kelly about another in July 1943 at Somerton. If you care to scroll back on this site to Sqn. Ldr. Robert Bungey DFC you’ll find there was also a tragic suicide and attempted infanticide of a child in mid June ’43 at Somerton (Nth Brighton). You want a real tear jerker this beats them all, the tragic tale having been covered in newspapers and Aust. Archives hold the RAAF file which has been digitalised. Bob’s infant son who was shot through the head by his dad (mum had died with lieukemia three weeks before) was then carried by Constable John Moss up the Bickford beach stairs to Alvington Crippled kiddies home for attention. Young Richard now 80 was very luck to survive and in 2019 released a book ‘Spitfire Leader’ dedicted to his father. PS. Don’t know what happened to Bomber the dog as I’ve yet to read the book.
Sandra P Van Tongeren,
http://www.tradegeniusindia.com/australia-port-code-list.html refers.
Southern Cross the town in WA is miles inland from the nearest seaport which is Esperance. I’d think he code refers to a seaport somewhere else . I note the the list that many cities have multiple seaports and each gets a unique name. Since there’s no gps location given, it’s hard to tell where this berth might be.
Regards
Peter-Davidson
I have contacted a facial ID expert and resolved he is the right person but I am still concerned about the teeth not matching the extracted and remounted teeth. Carl’s teeth are very rectangular and the extracted teeth taper a little at the top. It would be worth asking a dentist whether that is normal for a heavy smoker that the top erodes after 20 years.
Also, who was Norman Webb in relation to Carl?
Was this him?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245088892?searchTerm=%22norman%20webb%22
Not sure what the colonel is on about re photo shop but presume he means in the the same shot of Charlie dropped into two seperate groups. If so he’s not correct they are similar but the expression and pitch of his pose is different. Both images are clearly taken on the same day and I reckon that’s little Jack Keane laying on his side at the very front of the group shot. Check out the ears with the and face shape plus the age would be about right.
Im more curious about the puffy shirt Charlie is sporting that looks like its come of the set of a Seinfeld episode. It’s very blouse like with an exaggerated collar and drapes under the arms like he’s wearing a blouse or maybe a religious frock.
John: I’ve got absolutely no problem with the photographs. Looks like a blindingly bright sunny day for a family outing, shadows in the right spot with the right intensity. What else is meant to be in the background if Charlie wasn’t there? If they’ve superimposed a lid on the the big strapping lad’s body, then who’s lid is it? Sure looks like it would be Somerton Man and where else are getting his 18-25 year old lid to stick on it. Being 18-25 puts the photos right in the 1920s. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
Derek has put a lot of work into it…obsessive – yes, bordering on the plain weird – maybe, but it requires an obsessive character to get to spend the coin, visit places and people, embed yourself into someone else’s family…all that, and get those sorts of results. I mean that’s just well played I’m afraid. But to Derek’s admission there is still stuff to find out.
And myself personally I’m more interested in the Doff byplay. Far more interesting story.
@Peter,
The source that all these seaport databases get their LOCODE seaport codes from, is the one from UNECE:
https://unece.org/trade/cefact/unlocode-code-list-country-and-territory
when you look up the LOCODE AUSQC in that original list, it shows that it is not a seaport at all, but an airport in Southern Cross, WA. So several seaport databases copied their LOCODE data mistakenly from UNECE.
So AUSQC is the LOCODE for the airport of Southern Cross, WA. I’m from Europe, so I did some more background search into Southern Cross. The airport actually appears to be no more than two landingstrips. Southern Cross is a very small historic gold mining town on the eastern edge of the Western Australian wheatbelt. As far as I can tell it is in one of the biggest goldmining areas in Australia.
Can the seeds stuck in the SM’s clothes and the hair analysis results have anything to do with this possible lead?
Might be relevant…
Man Versus Machine: Who Wins When It Comes to Facial Recognition?
https://neurosciencenews.com/man-machine-facial-recognition-120191/
This is interesting. An internet search on “lead exposure in goldmining” gives a lot of references. In particular lead (child) poisoning with African artisanal goldmining is referenced often, such as in the Migori gold belt (Kenya), the Zamfara state in Nigeria, South Africa, but also Canada. Could CW have travelled to Africa as well?
thedude747: family gatherings of yore often included games for all including team sports for the fellas. Anyone for tennis, cricket or whatever turns you on, there’s three of them wearing the loose flanel sports shirts typical of depression years as shown by a bloke in the shot wearing pegged cuffless duds.
@the Dude – Very perceptive! The collar is a Schiller or Byron style collar – popular with Wandervogel types… hiking, poetry, camping… A consciously casual and free style, popular after WWI. In Melbourne people like musician Percy Grainger experimented with new ways of dressing – eg designing towelling suits for himself and a sports bra for his girlfriend so that she could run and play tennis… This style would fit with parts of the 1920s physical culture scene. I could of course be reading a lot into that shirt too… Charlie seldom seems like a run of the mill bogan bloke…
https://histclo.com/country/ger/gar/shirt/collar/gc-sch.html
They claim in the ‘My name is Charlie’ doco that the photos were 1920s vintage. My question is, in that era was amateur photograpy advanced sufficiently to capture movements of subjects in posed group shots having regard to limits of film speed for exampleI. I refer in particular to the left hand movement of y’man that is seen to mischievously hovering pretty fine focus over his brother-in-laws head; not to mention the facial expressions on faces of others in the group. I know next to nothing about picture taking but seems to me such shots were usually posed with the subjects having to be dead still…and saying cheese whilst awaiting the shutter snap.
@peter davidson
Perhaps you could ask a super-recognizer to take a look. Facial ID is only about 60% certain that Carl is Charlie and also the clay death mask of the body and the body itself.
Algebra would tell us if A=B and B=C then A = C-harlie.
But humans have doppelgangers – sometimes even male or female relatives score the same for a while with facial ID. I tested my wife and her sisters and they all matched at a certain age. It would explain elderly relatives telling them they all looked alike.
Since there are already two Charlie Webbs in the family and possibly some other mysterious children from Russell. I retain doubt.
Logically (from all other people I’ve tested in the past – including myself) I was expecting low/no match scores from Carl 16 to Carl 43 and very high match scores of Carl 14 to 17. But the opposite was true. This creates doubt.
Obviously image quality is the biggest factor. But equally, when I tested Roy in all images of him from the same period he always matches Roy. He was photographed with the same quality, some same photos and tested in the same way.
I still think Abbott should ask a facial ID expert to go through all the images. I did provide him with the contact details of the guy who ID’d the GRU agents in the Skripal case from video stills. Also, I know a professional military body recognizer but he will only work off original photos and would likely charge a fee and the cost of a flight, expenses etc.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tiBLJ8M5HFAQ_Yhb2aUGlNNMczUhgrDo/view?usp=sharing
misca:
When I read ABC’s associated news article, one of the family photo’s captions stated that it was from ’21. Wanting to make sure (as I also thought that he looked quite different compared to the footballer for having been from the same year), I contacted Australian Story to ask whether that was actually the case or perhaps a mistake, given Prankster Charlie’s aged look along with the fact that in their episode I believe Abbott says that the photo is from 20 years before his death (which would instead place him around his early 20s).
They replied that the ’21 date was indeed a mistake and it’s since been corrected. The family could only say that the gathering took place sometime in the 20s, nothing more exact than that. Mathwise then, he would have been anywhere from 14 to 25. Though comparing to the football pic I think we can soundly bump that lower number up to at least 15, and I would guess that he’s likely older than that. If our ’25 engineer is also Webb, which I still think is possible, then I would place the family gathering after the Swinburne party in the timeline (due to his more receded hairline, at least in my opinion). If that’s accurate, Prankster Charlie’s lower age limit would then instead be 19.
If one were interested in being more precise, the presence and apparent ages of other identified family members might help us get a better idea of the pictured date. If anyone who died in the 20s is there, the gathering must have obviously predated their death. If someone is present who is known to have left the country at some point, then we know that the photos couldn’t have been taken during that absence. Also, the ages of the children might be easier to gauge (given how much kids grow in just a few years), so if we know their identities and thus their dates of birth, then we might likewise get a closer idea of the year we’re looking at. And I’m sure there are many other approaches that I’m missing!
@misca
I believe the child lying at the front is Leo Keane. If it was 1928 (20 years before Carl’s death) then Carl was 23, and Leo was 13.
But what about the young child that looks about 5? would that be Norman F Webb aged 7 in 1928?
@ Jamie S.
If the little girl in the middle of the photo is Norma Mary Martin, born in 11 Nov 1925, and if she was 4-5 years old… that photo is from around 1929-1931.
@Pat,
If we say it was 1930 – then Carl was 26, Roy 27, Leo 15, Norma 5. It makes some sense.
So if we assume 1930 where were they living from your timeline?
Carl, Roy and the parents.
JS There certainly were leaf shutter cameras and film capable of an exposure as fast as 1/1000 in. use in the 1920’s. In for example you look at the Swinburne photo taken years before the sharpnes is out standing ergo it was shot at a decent enough speed to nullify and movement. I would wager that the Swinburne image was taken on medium format which in basic terms is a larger film designed for group or wider images to hold their quality/sharpness when enlarged. It was clearly a professional job. The posing and structure are spot on which actually requires more skill than you may imagine.
The family photos are however almost certainly taken on 35mm film and are more thrown together probably by an uncle with a Kodak popular with amateurs in that era. 35mm images suffer in sharpness when enlarged. Also you have the skill of the photographer and or wether a tripod was used to steady the camera.
Thanks Jo for the info on the shirt. Makes sense.
@ David,
Sprinvale
Jamie S –
“They replied that the ’21 date was indeed a mistake and it’s since been corrected. The family could only say that the gathering took place sometime in the 20s…”
Thanks for following up directly with them. It really wouldn’t have made sense as it’s obvious that Charles is older in the new pics compared to the Swinburne photo.
Also – I agree:
“If one were interested in being more precise, the presence and apparent ages of other identified family members might help us get a better idea of the pictured date.”
David –
“I believe the child lying at the front is Leo Keane. If it was 1928 (20 years before Carl’s death) then Carl was 23, and Leo was 13.”
My guess is that it might be Leo as well but I think he’s younger than 13 in this photo.
Sadly, I haven’t had much time to spend on any of this but I do agree that we might be able to narrow down the year based on the other people in the photo.
Nick Pelling: this, from ‘Redacted all Australian’ on Big Footy Tamam Shud site…
“Cramer and Pelling’s websites both reflecting views that the photos on Australian Story of Carl Webb don’t appear to match the Police photos of the corps of Somerton Man. It appears that the ears are different enough to raise doubts about whether the body is Carl Webb”…I’ve scrolled down posts on this and the Lochyer thread since the airing and there doesn’t seem to be anything of that nature but, Cramer on his own BS site does raise the issue of non comparison, view of which he holds personally.
Milongal , maybe add the “listening post” on Boundary Road to the map. From memory the “listening post” was situated 150-160m from the Thomson’s at 90A Moseley Street. Given that Glenelg hosted a branch of the CPA in 1948, and given that therewere some senior communists living in Glenelg I think it is a reasonable assumption that the “listening post” was for tapping telephones.
@ peter davidson,
Conservationists use Sealnet facial ID to identify seals – they claim a nearly 100% accuracy.
Who is missing from the Webb family photos – i.e. who took the photos?
Who in the family was interested in photography?
Is it Charles Richard Webb aged around 12 in 1930?
He never seems to appear in any picture – unless he is the boy lying down at the front and the 15-year-old Leo Keane is taking the picture?
But then the Keane family would have the photo album.
The photo album needs a chain of custody from the photographer to Stuart Webb so it is unlikely that Leo Keane took all the photos.
Byron: more on the Glenelg ‘listening post’ might allow our team to unhitch the Chuck wagon, which they’d gladly keep flogging like a dead horse til the cows come home if we don’t head them off at the pass. By keeping Glenelg and Moseley Street on the map we’re staying on track and there’s no telling what villainy the local CPA were up to in 1948 inluding the possibility of murder most foul. Suggesting that Mr. Charles Webb, self confident and free as a mad gallah (don’t believe the heresay) might contemplate self destruction something doesn’t quite add up, if you get my drift….Back in the day the old right wing RSL post war journal was itself called ‘The Listening Post’ maybe still is in WA which is the only one I know of.
@ Pat – I’m wondering if this is a gathering of the Webb and Tomkinson families after the death of Amy Webb née Tomkinson in June 1929. What do you think? The boy in the front could be Amy and Russell’s son Charles? I saw on Family Search Norma Mary Martin lived until 2019! I think the photo album came from Norman Frederick Webb’s wife?
@ David- the Webbs would be in Springvale, I think the Tomkinsons would be about four + hours to the South West in Camperdown?
It was good to hear from Stuart & Cristy Webb on Australian Story, they presented as good, down to earth people, bringing Charlie back into a contemporary family.
@misca,
The small child covering her face has to be Norma (because of her promimity to her parents) – so if Leo is say 12 then she is only 2 which would be incorrect. She must be at least 4 taking it to 1929 and then Leo is 14.
But where is Charlie Richard aged 11 – if 1929? He never appears in any photos. Can he always be the photographer? I’m certain family members would insist he appears in at least one family photo.
The absence of Charlie Richard would lead me to ask – What age does the DNA say Carl Webb is?
.
David: that is because all seals look the same
@ Jo,
Yes, Cristy and Stuart even lack the incisors, if I’m not mistaken! It’s really great that they have decided to help Abbott.
I think Norma looks a bit older than the other photo available on Helen Cass’ website at My Heritage and she dated the photo as 1929, but young children grow fast! I’m sure Norma would have liked to be part of all this!
The photo album was from Stuart’s ‘pa’ (as he says in the video). His father is one of Norman Frederick Webb’s son, whose names can be seen on his grave inscription (available on BillionGraves). Norman was Russell Richard’s son, of course.
@David
I understand you want to have “proof” through AI software, since some people are very bad in recognising a person from a photo, but AI software is not flawless either.
The person on the family photo’s has been identified by his family as Carl Webb. It was also written on the photo. This has always been and still is the gold standard, not AI recognition. I think we need to respect this and them and not mess about too much with the photo’s of people who may still be alive or have living next of kin.
To my modest opinion, I recognise that the Somerton man = Plaster cast = Carl Webb bottomleft Swinburne football teen = Charlie Webb at family gatherings = guest at the Swinburne engineering diner. I have no doubts whatsoever, 100%. This is based on facial recognition and shape of the ears.
I do not recognise the moving picture that Alexandrina M. generated as the Somerton man though.
@ Sandra P.
Sorry, but the photo posted by David/Gordon and later animated by Alexandrina is definitely Carl. I’d say it’s the one that looks the most like the photo of dead Carl. It seems to have been retouched, as it was common at the time, to make people look more glamorous, in fact it’s still common practice, n’est-ce pas?
@sandra P. van Tongeren
Try searching Pimeyes with Charlie at the family group. P.S. It says Charlie not Carl. Another young blond boy appears who is a facial ID match. If you’d only seen that boy you would believe he was the real blond Charlie.
That picture doesn’t appear searching with Carl. How can that be explained if they are the same person? If you search with young footballer Carl then Carl aged 43 also appears.
So I have a doubt they can be the same person. I would like to believe it but the Pimeyes system say NO. If you find pictures of missing people Pimeyes finds all their pictures and near matches.
If you use betaface with the found younger Charlie face and the one in the group photo they form an absolutely perfect average image. I have never seen a better average image. I was to show that average image to Prof Frowd who deals in these things in his university he would say they are likely the same person.
It seems clear that Charles Webb was buried AS Somerton Man. But Paul Lawson said that for progress to be made in the case, the original photos must be used. These are available on my website. Simple adjustments to magnification exposure contrast etc reveals SM true identity, his name is written on his face, fingerprints, the suitcase, the bust. This is being verified forensically. The man who died on the beach was head of Australia’s 1948 Soviet Spy Ring, designer and Milliner Carl Josef Halban of Vienna. In 1948 his cousin Hans Halban was building the atomic bomb. All facts. Who was buried and who died on the beach are two completely different issues. Paul Lawson 1949 in his diary Police job ‘ring from Constables re disposal of original body.’ Halban was disposed of. Webb buried as SM. http://deathatsomerton.com.au. For those who really want the truth, please examine the photos in the Dropbox. Cheers everyone.
Lurch: the last animal joke here on CM as I recall, was our moderater’s little gem, ‘like herding cats’ which also got a lot of laughs. My retort to your seals all looking the same quip, having as it’s basis your own debut Lockyer comment, being along the lines of…same as Dorothy’s Bute ladies hocky team standing on their hands in the team showers after their big win of ’54…
The same guy that appears in the Swinburne photos and the same guy who appears in the family photos is the same guy buried and recently exhumed from West terrace cemetery and his name is Charles “Carl ” Webb. The qualifying facts including DNA timeline and circumstances as well as the fact that anyone who’s not legaly blind can see that its Carl. Yes there are some variances to do with age and the well known image in the morgue having been taken post mortem. Facial recognition is not an exact science as anyone who’s been stopped at the airport in the automated passport control will attest to.
ps The chick in the crying game is a guy.
@David
The pic is not very sharp and the face very small which makes it unreliable for identification purposes IMO.
But I have to agree with you that there are a few things different on the family pics. For instance he is extremely blond in comparison to the other pics of him, but there can be a natural explanation for that. I also think that the morgue pic was more muscular at the shoulders, compared to the family pics. But there can be a natural explanation for that.
Indeed, Charlie is written behind him, but he is posing with his parents like a son would do. People may have alternated calling him Carl or Charlie. Or maybe he did not want to be called Charl”ie” anymore when he was grown up. We can’t tell anymore, so both names should be considered as possible.
Hi Sophie, Fascinating information, Looking on the NAA website in Carl Josef Halban’s name, there does seem to be a discrepancy. On NAA SP1732/1 his height is given as 5′ 7″. No wonder Paul Lawson didn’t want to talk to me about the ‘original’ body.
Hi Sophie, Photos of the ‘real’ Carl Josef Halban show him without much hair?! Confused-were there two CJH?
To help with dating the ABC photos a bit more specifically, from my understanding of the family (and assuming that we are indeed within the ’20s here), the possible IDs and birth years of all those who might have been children at the Webbs’ gathering are:
-The little one: Ethel (’26) or Norma (’25)
We could add Norman (’21) as a possibility, but assuming it were him then some of the other children might look much older than they should given what their consequent ages would be.
-The boy in front: Charles (’17) or Norman (’21)
I don’t think he’s a Keane, or at least not Leo (~’15?) from the one photo of Leo I’ve seen; I think the Keanes look too comparatively delicate and that this fellow instead more closely matches the nephew Charles’ military photo (I’ve not seen any known photos of Norman, but being Charles’ brother I imagine that they looked similar).
-The girl next to Eliza (might not be a child at all, but her figure would lead me to believe that she is): Doris (’18)
She would be sister to the boy in front and I’d say that the resemblance is there.
-The lad behind her (also might be an adult, but he has very good hair and skin compared to most of the other men in the family if so): Jack (’17), Leo (~’15?) or Charles (’17)
This one strikes me as more of a Keane. From the very little I’ve seen of the three as adults, I believe it’s Jack!
Unless I’m mistaken or missing some information, I think that most of the possible interpretations of these kids’ ages, identities, and thus the year likely pictured, would point toward it being around the end of the decade and toward a mid-20s Uncle Charlie.
Seems to be one awful lot of photographic experts in our mix all of a sudden and none of them seeming to be in agreement which is most disconcerting for an old camera obscura dyslextic like moi. When the three pics at the heart of this latest conundrum first surfaced I was a bit worried about certain aspect similarities of Carl ? in all three, now I’m just as concerned with identities of all of those present eg., Are we to assume that the elderly couple are in fact Ma & Pa Webb or could they be Amy Webb’s parents Mr. & Mrs. Tomkinson for instance. We can’t take comfort from inscription written above the four so framed ie., Grandpa, Grandma, Charles & Roy, as we know them to be of recent origin inserted for presentation purposes. So rather than submitting the pictures to all sorts of forensic analysis for authenticity, perhaps a family shot of mum and dad at another venue might serve just as well. Should the couple prove to be otherwise then we can then go for the tricky stuff to include a possible date improvement more in keeping with late depression era (29/35) or closer to 1940.
@Lurch,
You’d better tell Sealnet they are simply naming the same seal with different names. There is only 1 seal on the planet. In many ways, facial ID technology is better than a super recognizer because it will always give the same answer (unless they update the software). It won’t be persuaded to change its mind.
In the recent case of a woman found wandering in Croatia who didn’t know who she was – Pimeyes found her in social settings and from that her name could be deduced because the accounts with the picture would know her. The same was true in the ‘Mostly Harmless Hiker’ case.
…..In saying all that and yet still being open to better understanding on several issues, I’m finding it difficult to think that Roy in the album pic could be anyone other than Roy Webb depicted in the 1941 army inlistment photo. Actually they both show a man of roughly the same age, so rules out mid 1920s era as claimed by the ‘My Name is Charlie’ (not Carl or Charles) presenters.
Pimeyes thinks this is young Charlie (or his young Charlie doppelganger) from the group photo. A blond-haired boy.
The group photo is owned by Russell – it is his family photo so why would he exclude his own child Charlie Richard?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pyAHcaxS25BkNK4L-th84wiy2LfcRl3P/view?usp=sharing
The boy lying down at the front is most likely Leo Keane. This is an average image of both their faces:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KG7QZPC82ffUpZ-IDQBx9sTxiUisIIMi/view?usp=sharing
@David The difference between a super recogniser and AI software is that a human is far more flexible and able to interprete facial changes and expressions such as mood, peeking into the sunshine, aging, and so on and so forth. A human also is able to extrapolate and look at the bigger picture: shape of the ears, body posture, body build. Like you say, AI will always give the same rigid answer but certainly can be used as a very helpful tool.
An update on the possible AUSQC/Southern Cross goldmining lead.
It is very well possible that the results of the mass spectrometry hairanalysis of CW have to do with small-scale gold mining activities. The preliminary study performed by the students on the hair found enhanced relative values of element content for lead, mercury, arsenic and cadmium which reflect the presence of these elements in the recent environment of CW. Artisanal and small-scale miners are exposed in their work to multiple toxic hazards, most notably mercury, lead, cyanide, arsenic, cadmium, and cobalt:
https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-022-00877-5
Mercury and arsenic have both been linked historically to small scale goldmining, and as such have caused environmental contamination. Lead on the other hand in relation to goldmining is referenced as being the by-product of lead-rich gold ore in African artisanal goldmining, such as in the Migori gold belt (Kenya), the Zamfara state in Nigeria or South Africa.
The mass spectrometry results of CW’s hair therefore could point to a living environment of small scale artisanal goldmining activities, including goldmining areas in Africa.
I think this option seriously needs to be considered. However, to provide a definitive answer on this, a professional forensic expert analysis would be required to do with a complete study on the hair and comparison of the results with possible environments such as the ones that I suggested above.
So besides the African poison ouabain as suspected by the original investigators, the cuts on CW’s body that could have been caused by an African arrow, three African surnames (Namibian, Kenyan, Congolese) that are written in the cryptic note, there is another association with Africa through the AUSQC/Southern Cross string in the cryptic note: African small-scale goldmining (Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa). In addition, historically, Chinese miners were active in goldmining in Australia, which may be a good explanation to the Chinese surname of Liao in the cryptic note.
So what was CW doing in Cottesloe? Perth is the nearest large city and seaport to the old goldmining town of Southern Cross. Southern Cross is in the middle of one of the largest golddeposits in Australia:
https://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0010/93547/figure-1.png
But, what about gold deposits near Perth or Adelaide? Or even Monbulk? Remember, CW went camping in Monbulk in 1933. Indeed, there are references about historical gold digging activities near Monbulk as well.
I have been searching Trove and the NAA (National Archives of Australia) on crossreferences between Carl Webb and prospecting in Western Australia, but have not found anything so far. Apparently the Western Mining Corporation exercised options in the Southern Cross group of leases:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218039414
I did come across some possible travel activities of CW, but at this point these are yet meaningless.
@Sophie Hoisman,
Thanks.
There’s a small correction required. You call Robert Victor Hemblys-Scales, “Phillip”.
I found your candidates family tree and added it to the geni.com project for anyone to check out.
https://www.geni.com/projects/Somerton-Man/714584
Regards
Peter-Davidson
Technology says the boy at the front is more likely Leo Keane not Charles Richard. Perhaps CR is behind the camera.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lwtYOJM5V3E5hTrDWNtHR02JXazkIFxQ/view?usp=sharing
Can someone post high resolution versions of both family pictures that we can all refer to?
Establishing a starting point for the date of the photo.
This is a family group Daniel Martin, Doris Maude and Norma – informed to me by Pat as she can access ancestry images of this family group.
Since they were married 1923 and the child was born 1925 that determines it is after 1925. But how much after?
We can assess Norma as being a small child – likely younger than 10, older than 3. Meaning we can narrow it between 1928 to 1935.
By following a similar process with other family groups we could narrow it down further. But my guess is around 1930.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x__X0bnP68W18EZxmgclGEw88rOjvfbU/view?usp=sharing
I’d say 1928 to 1932/33 as Roy is not married in the photo- only marrying in 33. Dates aside , this suggests happier times and cements the close relationship CW has with the Keanes. Does anyone know who the guy with the moppy hair is in between the two brothers?
Sandra,
the most likely source of lead in a gold miner’s hair is the fumes from what is called a fire assay for gold. Another source of the various metals found in the hair samples is primary or secondary metallurgy. I still think that the piece of crumpled metal found in Carl’s suitcase is a piece of platinum foil and the only person who would carry a piece of platinum foil in 1948 was a prospector. I discussed these matters in the past in various SM related forums and in relation to the possibility that SM was Charles Mikkelsen.
Sandra,
in late 1948, from memory, an Adelaide businessman (his name escapes me at present, but he is also called the “Satin Man”) was establishing a light alloys metallurgical plant at Glenelg and was advertising for staff. The metals found in Carl’s hair suggest that he worked in secondary metallurgy judging from the unusual mix of metals. The piece of platinum foil also suggests prospecting and the boom in uranium prospecting was just getting underway in 1948 and one of the largest uranium deposits at the time was in South Australia. So, maybe Carl/Charles was in Glenelg looking for a temporary job at the light alloys plant had moved to South Australia to try prospecting for uranium? Prospectors in 1948 would have taken occasional work to fund the prospecting activities.
@Jo
“@ Pat – I’m wondering if this is a gathering of the Webb and Tomkinson families after the death of Amy Webb née Tomkinson in June 1929. What do you think? The boy in the front could be Amy and Russell’s son Charles? I saw on Family Search Norma Mary Martin lived until 2019! I think the photo album came from Norman Frederick Webb’s wife?”
I married a Tomkinson, his family was a very old family from the York area in Western Australia.
This only caught my eye because of the way Tomkinson was spelt, most Tomkinsons I come across either have a P or/and a H in their surname!
The logical answer to the big guy with the floppy hair is he is Russell if it is a family picture. Roy, Russell and Carl at the back.
In the link provided by Prof Abbott the photo album seems to have been provided via aunt Julie. So Stuart and Cristi seem to have been given it for the ABC TV/podcast show. In another, they say they found the picture dramatically as the pages were stuck together. The obvious lack of knowledge about who was who in the picture suggests they didn’t know any of the people – not even their own grandparent in the picture. If you were showing someone your own photo album you would point out your own family members first like “That’s gran”.
The clothing of some of the men suggests it was some family sporting event – the men playing some sport like tennis perhaps. It doesn’t seem like a wake after a funeral.
But who was aunt Julie in the family?
Byron: I think it was Harry Phipps.
@ Daviid Morgan
You’re a bit confused. Julie is Stuart’s and Cristy’s aunt. She is one of Norman Frederick’s daughters, as I have pointed out in my previous post, you can see their names on his grave inscription (Billion Graves).
Norman would have been only 9-11 years old when that photo was taken, and Julie is probably much younger than him, so that album photo was probably owned by Norman, hence “Grandma” and “Grandpa”, but he obviously didn’t take the photo, it was probably passed on to him by Russell or one of his aunts (Freda, Gladys, Doris).
@ deni
Do you think your husband’s Tomkinsons are related to them? I have just realised that Doris Amy married her fist cousin Norman John Tomkinson.
@ misca
I don’t know if there’s a high resolution version of the photos available online, these are all I have…
https://i.imgur.com/10nhMQT.png
https://i.imgur.com/lMlQg3m.png
@Pat,
That’s several small children under 11 not in the photo – Charles Richard, Norman and Julie…and others?
Usually, families construct these photos based on the small children and grandparents. It is hard to imagine an event (other than a funeral) where children would be excluded. But then we have little Norma in the middle…
if the floppy haired guy was Russell is he unmarried at the time seeing that all coupes are sat together?
@ David Morgan
‘Usually’… maybe they had other photos that are with someone else or have been lost, it was almost 100 years ago… plenty of logical explanations.
Thanks Pat!
You’re welcome, misca!
And the family photo was definitely taken at the same spot as the RA Webb bakery cart, so this is most likely good old Spring Vale! (the squared shape topiary bush, or whatever you call that!)
https://i.imgur.com/UBFH8Gi.png
@ em
I don’t know if that is Russell, different hair type and hairline, but yes, Russell was a widower by then, his wife Amy Sarah died in June 1929 and he only married Josephine Margaret in 1944.
In 1939 a Charles Webb and Gordon Woolley wrote a musical called ‘Doin the Town’ in Melbourne.
It seems Gordon Woolley was a piano player who had a radio show in Newcastle called Melody Man.
In 1950 he wrote a song with Matthew Tapp called Drovers Lullaby. But he said that before the war he composed songs with a lyric writer (i.e. Charles Webb) in Melbourne.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/135295304?searchTerm=%22drovers%20lullaby%22
Dorothy said Carl was writing poetry but perhaps it was song lyrics before the war. Perhaps Carl/Charles Webb had also worked with Vernon Lisle before the war who also composed similar popular songs in the 1950s. Leo Keane was the script writer for Vernon Lisle when he was the compere on Sports Parade.
David Morgan: we already have a Charles Webb piano player in Melbourne with a radio career, phone number Cent. 4496 c/o the Shefte College of Music, so this sounds like his kind of thing:
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/27/carl-webbs-small-ads#comment-468766
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/27/carl-webbs-small-ads#comment-468769
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/27/carl-webbs-small-ads#comment-468770
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/27/carl-webbs-small-ads#comment-468851
(etc)
@Byron,
Agreed, so the waiting is for a thorough professional forensic analysis on the hair. Concentrations of elements in the hair can be compared to possible environments and from that comparison experts could be able to figure out where CW has been, eg in Southern Cross or even in a goldmining area in Africa.
If CW was poisoned/murdered, there would have had to have been a motive to do so. Being broke and looking for a job in Glenelg does not have such a high risk of getting murdered. Having a lot of gold/money does. Also, his wallet was missing.
So the waiting really is for an official toxicology and a forensic hair analysis report, that would really answer a lot of questions. In the meantime, maybe information can be found on possible goldmining activities of CW.
I just thought the Tapp method of lyric writing in his hospital bed made me think of Carl’s code in the Rubaiyat. Some vague words buzzing around his head for years trying to write a song that made him some money.
He also said the guy (Charles Webb) helped with the lyrics but not the music.
The other interesting part is the music publisher in Melbourne for his Drovers lullaby was J. Albert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Music
The person behind the camera for the two c.1930 shots of the Webb family and the larger extended family (?) was a serious amateur photographer judging from the low vantage point, the “filling of the frame” and the positioning of the subjects. So, it might be possible to identify the photographer from other photos showing the same characteristics.
Piano player Charles Webb (for tap dancers):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/237065042?searchTerm=%22charles%20webb%22%2C%20piano
Gordon Woolley (tap dancing):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75622390?searchTerm=%22gordon%20woolley%22%2C%20tap%20dancing
Surely some of our best and brightest may recall my mention some time back of the renowed Australian poet Charles Webb who’s post war career was interupted by his mental instability and his inherited addiction to the track and equine sport.
And while we’re horsing around with recent events, did anyone else pick up on narrator Carolyn Billsborow’s two bloopers in her introduction to ‘My Name is Charles’ on Australia Story. Of course it refers to her mention of the two trainee Jockeys who attended at the death scene. Neil Day was at that time a licenced apprentice who had recent wins on top city courses whilst his pal Horrie Patching was himself a fully fledged hoop with years of experience and a string of major race wins under his belt. Nick Pelling will recall that he was one of champion Royal Gem’s preferred jocks.
@Pat
I couldn’t tell you, I do know his grandparents came from somewhere in England, I think, I dare not ask him because he always denies it, like there is some shame that his family originated from another country, he swears that the whole family we born and bred here.
Mind you I was born in England and I feel no shame, the man is weird..
Next time I speak to him i’ll ask whether his family ever came from the Eastern States.
I say next time because we got divorced a few years ago, I still speak to him sometimes though because our daughter and her boyfriend live with him in W.A. while I live in S.A.
The small bits I know is his fathers name was Vincent/Vince Tomkinson and his mother was Ruth Tomkinson, I don’t know what her maiden name was though..
His name is Robert/Bob Tomkinson and he has a brother Donald/Don Tomkinson. Two sisters named Margaret and Anne.
Sorry I can’t be of more help.
Peter Davidson:
Hooray at last Petedavo, after all that frustration finally coming to the realisation that there never was a Charles Richard Webb, just plain Charles, NAA having him there waiting all the while. Now armed with your proof that he is Somerton Man and with the boss more than pleased having finally seen the file photo looks as if TS/BS is on target for the long awsited clincher. The ears have it mate and jolly well spotted too.
Sandra,
Yes, and an analysis of the various lead isotopes could indicate where the lead originated. Although much lead pre-1950 would have a Broken Hill isotopic signature even though the lead exposure occurred elsewhere. But, it might be useful. The mix of metals might suggest a particular orebody (ie. A particular mine) or suggest a particular occupation.
I believe that there are now extremely sensitive immunological tests that might be able to show if Carl/Charles had been taking digitalis drugs or not prior to his death.
I find the lack of a wallet and any money on Carl/Charles (henceforth C/C) body suggests that he was robbed post mortem. I think we should look for C/C’s name in the lists of dormant bank accounts that were published each year. Every account that had been dormant for more than five years had to be identified and the Commonwealth Government published the list in the newspapers. If C/C’s name does not appear in the period 1951 to 1954 then I would be suspicious that somebody acquired his bank book (that’s more or less all there was in the 1940s apart from cheque books) and helped themselves. Prosper seemed to become quite well off in the few months following C/Cs’ death. From my point of view Prosper is still a person of interest, and possibly Dof. Or somebody who got to the suitcase before the police. Or even a crooked cop (“stealing from dead uns’” was a major lurk for poorly paid police back in the day.)
TSM was buried in a coffin in dry sandy soil at a locality that was selected to preserve the body as well as possible for future forensic work. I am particularly interested in seeing if the skull shows signs of a frontal lobotomy. Also, it would be interesting if the bones show signs of lead poisoning. If any soft tissue has survived then a test for abnormal concentrations of lead and barium would also be warranted in the circumstances.
……Sorry, Francis Charles Webb was his full name but a very interesting felllow nonetheless and I recommend checking him out on Wiki due to many uncanny similar attributes shares with our main SM contender Carl, apart from the age discrepency notwithstanding.
@byron deveson
There is a quicker way:
https://moneysmart.gov.au/find-unclaimed-money
But I was unable to find the correct Charles or Carl.
lead poisoning can be attributed to working within the auto industry https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC111081/ can lead to foot drop and tooth decay
from symptoms it seems to be acute rather than chronic
digitalis and digitoxins are both used to treat cardiac problems and would be administered to someone presenting cardiac arrest symptoms. Digitalis is to be taken on a full stomach
phenobarbital usually prescribed for epilepsy and is highly addictive also causes suicide ideation, infertility and mood swings
My guess CW got involved in the criminal world through Roy’s wife’s Ruby father. Addiction to phenobarbital shortly followed, I suspect supplied by Dorothy.
In the away period1946- 1948 CW was in some kind of rehab programme. – mental hospital) or being nursed back by the Keanes. To get away Cw changes his name. Exposure to lead might have been recent suggesting he was working in some garage rather than a mine. digitalis might have been used to revive Cw post a heart episode. Everything indicates that Prosper disposed of the body and helped himself to the valuables. the dormant bank account search is a good idea
Keith Magnuson death threats may have been proof that he was closer to the truth than was given credit for.
David, that site does not list unclaimed money from the1940s.
Byron,
It’s very well possible that CW was robbed, possibly after a quarrel with the person(s) he had an appointment with. Prosper Thomson is a person of interest indeed. Since he offered his car in the newspapers as available for rent to groups of people, it may be that CW rented the car from him, hence the Thomson phonenumber under the cryptic message, hence why Ms. Thomson may have recognised him. If CW was poisoned during such a quarrel, the car could have been used to drive him to Somerton Beach and dump him there. During that drive, CW may have seen chance to tear out the Tamam Shud paper to try and point to the cryptic note and lost the book in the car he was transported with. However what doesn’t fit in this scenario is that the book was not found in Thomson’s car but in another man’s car. Or it was flung into the chemist’s car from Thomson’s car.
You’re right about the bank accounts too. There has been mention of another phone number under the cryptic note, that of a local bank. To my knowledge it was not made public which bank it concerned. That would be the first bank of interest to check for any accounts of CW.
Searching for the four surnames of Goabab (Namibian), Liao (Chinese), Bimpanet (Kenyan) and Liabo (Congolese/Norwegian) that are written in the cryptic note, I found just one single entry in the archives that is curious. Check out the agency that created the entry at C123:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=9673049&isAv=N
Apparently the link to the record expires. The record can be viewed by searching for “Liabo”. This results in a single hit for Liabo, Hendrik Olav (Norwegian). Apparently there is a World War II security investigation dossier on him, kept by the the Security Service, New South Wales/ Australian Federal Police, Eastern Division (New South Wales), Sydney Office.
Byron,
You are saying that a life policy unclaimed with a return date of 1960 was purchased after 1940?
A typical life cover is 20-25 years.
Dorothy Jean Robertson:
OTN: 1259931
Money from: COLONIAL MUTUAL LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY LIMITED
Policy number: 396408
Type of money: Life insurance
Section: 216LIA (Unclaimed matured life insurance policy)
Year of return: 1960
Peter Bowes: you’d be drawing a pretty long bow with Webb’s baccarat school ID then hooking up old Carl with the underbelly crowd in all sorts of dishonesty. I’m all for it and you may have noted my having re birthed it to good effect (BD &NP went for it too) some time ago. What I’d really like to see is for you to also toss his bimbo into this low life mix in her likely role as in-house club masseuse, so called podiatrist and in due course Charlie Webb’s wife of convenience. At least Dorothy Jean had the decency to give the bugger a complementary going over and a good polish prior to having him seen off at Somerton Beach 74 years ago yesterday. No one noticed apart from we two, not even fast failing Flash Gordon.
Prosper and his wife were monsters. Cruel, thieving and heartless. I wish I still had the suite of photos sent to me by a mutual late friend a few years ago of them at one of their pathetic family functions. Pouring piss elegant Great Western into tumblers and everyone in cheap paper hats and fake pearldrop earrings. Adelaide royalty. Vomit.
The lying old cow pretended to be Jewish why?
Social cachet. We knew her & I hated her. She was an evil, nasty bitch and her gigantic headstone belies the fact that about ten people went to the synagogue to see her off.
The evidence in Doffs sworn statements speaks for itself. Carl was a nasty bloke who bashed his wife , pulled a knife on a mate over a simple card game at home and was known to the cops as a dangerous bloke. He did a runner on Doff to avoid payments his brother married a gangsters daughter and he’s fingered by the baccarat boys as a nitkeeper so there’s no long bows being drawn ,its as plain as the curly white moustache on you face colonel. Carl was in to the underbelly of 1940’s Melbourne up to his strange looking ears.
Lets stay close to the source, the note that Carl Webb pointed to through the piece of paper in his pocket. Could Hendrik Olav Liabo be one of the persons that were mentioned in the note? Can anybody access the dossier on him?
@moriah, i have no doubt they weren’t the best of people. there is a paper trail to prove it. not cooperating with the police re Carl Webb and purposedly throwing people off the track meant she was most certainly in on the cover up.
Quoted from her daughter
“She said to me SHE KNEW WHO HE WAS but she wasn’t going to let that out of the bag, so to speak. There’s always that fear that I’ve thought that maybe she was responsible for his death.
“She told the police that she didn’t know who he was and certainly I know nothing. She did, and she told me that it is a mystery that was only known to a LEVEL HIGHER THAN THE POLICE FORCE.”
the was only one person that knew about the Rubaiyat and what it meant in terms of it being a suicide handbook and the cult of the rubaiyat.
it is taken as a given that Carl Webb ripped those the piece of paper with those fateful words but what proof have, we that it was him? or was it indeed a calling card of a twisted mind that was caught up in the romanticism of it all? the Omar Khayyam clubs were all the rage in that era was this gathering one of them?
This person could be the same Hendrik Olav Liabo as the single one listed in the NAA:
Henrik Olav Liabø (note the strike through the o, which the writer of the cryptic note also may have been struggling with), Norwegian, decorated war seafarer, visited Australia in the period 1942-1944 on Norwegian ships:
5/11/1942 Sydney
6/9/1942 Melbourne
7/30/1943 Melbourne
9/25/1944 Melbourne
10/8/1944 Melbourne
Melbourne, so he could have known Carl Webb. Seafarer, so he probably was aquainted with port codes. Links:
https://www.krigsseilerregisteret.no/en/sjofolk/422103
https://www.sjohistorie.no/no/sjofolk/422103/
It’s well worth reading the documents and info on these sites to understand which role Norwegian merchant ships played during WWII.
thedude747: I’ts likely Carl’s mum loved him despite his admitted short comings. The same might not apply to his wrathful (woman scorned) wife Dorothy truth be known?…Be reminded that the dead have no defence against scurrulous hearsay directed against them by others seeking some advantage.
A favour … could someone point me to the comment that gives the date Webb left Melbourne for WA .. ta
Sandra, stop.
There were no Chinese here. No Kenyans or anything else.
More’s the pity it isn’t still like that.
You’re being embarrassing Miss van Tongeren.
Moriah: I take it that you didn’t like Jessie?
Peteb: depends on which Webb you mean, him or her. My best guess going by latest thread trending is that Carl, in all probably never went further west than Sth Esplinade Somerton Beach, so Cottesloe W.A. would be a stretch. As for Dorothy, there is no firm basis for suggesting she headed west either unless she went with the man from Butte or else her cousin Dr. John Bennett to Wagin following hubby’s untimely liquidation. As for how long either may have stayed ?. I’ll get back to you after consultation with one the Lockyer team but, I think Geoff got wise to her lies let her go.
thedud747: sorry to disappoint you (not really) but, there was no Transcontinental from Perth to Adelaide or anywhere else in 1947, never was and still isn’t. Only way to cross the Nullabour by train in those days was with the Trans-Australian Railway originally the Great Western Express, which could get you to Adelaide with three or four changes depending on the Port Augusta/Port Pirie service schedules. Not to worry though because Charlie was more likely to have been eithe in a foreign land, confined to a mental assylum or else at sea…. PS. Do you still travel with a globite school case, five ties and half a dozen snot rags just like Keane….uh um er Webb?
@Pukiarena Sorry to burst your small little bubble, but you’re the one that is embarrasing yourself in your infinite naivity.
It seems like you have never travelled outside of Australia yourself or have any concept of international trade or seafaring. On seaports, and airports, especially the larger international ones, ships sailing under all sorts of nationalities arrive, carrying crew of all sorts of nationalities. It may come as a big surprise to you that Australia has seaports and airports as well.
Concerning the Chinese, you’re wrong about that as well. Chinese gold miners have been coming to Australia throughout history.
Colonel you need to get in contact with the administrators of the Indian pacific booking site to adjust their history pages. They have clearly made a mistake. Their site says
“At 10.15 am on October 1917 the first eastbound passenger train, the Transcontinental express departed Kalgoorlie for Port Augusta on the new rail line.
They must have it all wrong. You be sure and get on to them.
Re the “snot rags” check Jack Keane’s goods shipped back to Australia. He had about 35 from memory so Im thinking it was a thing at the time.
Sorry Colonel I know finding and pointing minor corrections is the only way you can feel important. You go champion.
AND ANOTHER THING ! misspelling dude as “dud” cmon man I’m not a rock ,I have feelings.
thedude747….and am not a Colonel, nor do I feel so important; Whereas you my man shall always be a dud and an impotent brown nosing dud at that.
https://holidaysofaustralia.com.au/explore/indian-pacific?page=4
Go to link to see information on the transcontinental express.
NOW NOW don’t go all Sooky La La and nasty Colonel just cos you’ve got egg all over your face.
Quote Colonel Sanders in recent post “Sorry to disappoint you (not really) but there was no Transcontinental from Perth to Adelaide in 1947 never was and still isn’t”
OH NO NO NO COLONEL there certantly was !!! Not that anyone would give flying ….
See Colonel you try and make yourself look clever and other contributors silly by trawling through the minutia for any innocuous slips then pointing them out in sanctimonious diatribes but really all you prove is that you can google a WIKI page which in this case has bought you undone because they’re wrong half the time.
So from now on I’m gonna fine you each time. For this balls up I fine you 12 nuggets 7 wings and a crispy strip.
But Ill suspend the fine because at least you addressed be as the dude not the dud this time which is cool cos that shit hurts man.
…..as indeed it was meant to and yes dude, Wiki was indeed my source. Needless to say you’re gonna have to pull Jo into line for making the same silly mistake when referring to Wikipedia’s rather tempting Trans-Australian Railway deliberate lie too.
No fine for #Jo Colonel.
thedude747 I love your posts, you speak so eloquently to old Johnny here but he doesn’t seem to appreciate it, welcome to my world over on the Beaumont thread, and it’s just as funny here as it was over there LOL
HELLO I HAVE DECIPHERED THE CODE, I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE IT PUBLICLY, I HAVE TRIED TO CONTACT THE AUSTRALIAN POLICE AND MR. DEREK ABOTT BUT I HAVE NOT SUCCEEDED.
I WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT THE AUTHOR OF THIS BLOG SO THAT HE MAKES IT PUBLIC ON MY BEHALF, I ONLY ASK FOR THE RECOGNITION OF HAVING DISCOVERED IT.
THANK YOU MY NAME IS ALEXANDER MENDOZA AND MY EMAIL IS ALEXANDERMENDOZADURAN @ GMAIL.COM
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR CONTACT TO SEND YOU THE COMPLETE CODE.
BEING A TRANSCIPTION YOU WILL BE ABLE TO VERIFY THAT IT MATCHES AND THAT IT IS NOT AN INTERPRETATION OF THE MESSAGE BUT A CODE THAT I CAN EXPLAIN HOW TO DECODE.
Alexander: please email me – the author of this blog – at my not-very-secret email address nickpelling at nickpelling dot com
If the SM code is really a code doesn’t it mess up the story of an electrical engineer who goes on the run to avoid maintenance payments to Dorothy?
It is unlikely he suddenly got involved in spying in 1948 because he had gone to Cottesloe.
Dorothy was just a nasty bitch who lied about the cruelty in order to get a divorce. Webb was busy in Sig Int all war and she had enough of it. She also had several affairs. He took to drugs to cope. He was terrified of his Soviet handlers which is why he tried to suicide in Melbourne and then fled.
David Morgan: in all fairness to poor Carl you’ll find it was Dorothy what flew the coop not him, so how was he going to get money to her in some non descript S.A. shit hole. I’m thinking he may have gotten uncle Norm Bennett’s address from her father Jack Robertson and thought a trip to Adelaide was in order to comply with the MO provisions. One can imagine how that well intended initiative might have gone down!
@JS,
He could have just caught the bus and handed the money to her parents or sister?
@js what do we know on Norm Bennett? Why wouldn’t her father just give him her address
still wondering who came up with the unproven stupid toss a book in a car theory , who does that ?, like no one. it has been repeated so many times it has almost become fact. most realistic scenario would be that the rubaiyat fell out of a coat pocket and remained undiscovered for while.
why would Jestyn go around hospitals giving rubaiyat to unsuspecting patients, how weird is that? Could she have been a part of the cult of rubaiyat a secret society of sorts of which a calling card would be placed? a hedonistic , drug using bunch of young people living heir best lives before it all goes to shit.
~While you live Drink! – for, once dead, you never shall return.’~
Colonel, you’re spot on. I know most current retards have no idea who their cousins are (or fathers) but when I was a little girl I knew exactly who was who in the family zoo – and that extended to just about all third cousins removed or nae. I’m not that old. The idea that Bennett looked at this not very distant relation and thought ‘no idea’ is so stupid it is beneath contempt.
….Roy’s image in the larger group pic gives an equally good perspective for age comparison with his frontal pose in the 1940 inlistment photo.
Clive: it’s always been my take appropos the Ronald Francis ROK deal, that John Freeman was a much less likely candidate than Doug Hendrickson; not having the all important brother-in-law and not proven to have ever lived or worked at the 24a Jetty Road pharmacy speaks for itself. His proposer Gerry Feltus has a proven poor track record for credibility, as shown by his failure to later expand on ‘John’ Freeman’s involvement as promised etc., Whereas Dr. Douglas Hendrickson not only lived and worked close to the crime scene, he also had two Adelaide based brothers-in-law to lend support for his Ronald Francis credentials.
I pay my respects to Australian Royalty past, present and emerging.
I’m sorry but Ger(iatric) Feltus is a non starter. The man knew exactly who Jestyn was but renamed she and her husband (why?) . This is no better than the detectives who knew who Webb was and let one cousin dissect him and another cousin bury him but never identified him to the public. How dare these people not share what they really know? They are an infection on the body politic which requires sunlight as a disinfectant.
Feltus and his book are a waste of time. All of the relevant details are on this website. Bowes is a bore (with some nuggets admittedly, most of which he mines from his own anus) and Cramer is a Crapshoot.
This website is the shiz.
Colonel – maybe ask the old Teutonic chap what he thinks. He won’t tell you what he knows but it will be a wonderful epitaph when he keels over and it turns out everything he wrote made ten times more sense with the correct details added.
Some more on the Norwegians connected to the SM case.
The first is Keith Mangnosen or Magnussen, whose surname could be Norwegian.
The second name in connection to this case is CW’s named doppelganger, Charles Mikkelsen, a Norwegian sailor who reportedly died on 10 June 1940. Mikkelsen previously deserted ship, had been trying to obtain New Zealand or Australian citizenship and had the opportunity to get a NZ copy of the Rubaiyat to Australia.
The third is a Norwegian (or Congolese) name that shows up as the fourth surname contained in the Rubaiyat cryptic note: Liabo. The surnames in the Rubaiyat note are foreign to Australia. Together with two probable port codes contained in the note, this indicates that these could be crew serving on an international (merchant) ship. As Jo suggested in the beginning, the first names could be temporary crew that were taken on en route to or from Australia. Since Liabø is a Norwegian name, this could mean that the ship they served on was a Norwegian merchant ship.
Some observations in the note that support there being four surnames, is their spelling. The “o” in Liabø has a strikethrough, which someone having to write it may struggle with. In the note, we indeed see something similar happening: there are some accents drawn on top of the “o”, as in ò or ó, whilst for Liabø it should have been an ø. The writer also seemed to have struggled with the foreign spelling of “Liao”, as it seems there was drawn another o in it as in “Lioo”.
Ofcourse, finding these four surnames appearing together on a ship’s crew list would present a big piece of evidence. Since the surnames are mostly foreign to Australia, except for Liao, they don’t appear in the NAA record search. Except for 1 hit: That of Henrik Olav Liabø, recorded by the Security Service, New South Wales, Australia.
Could HO Liabø be the Liabo named in the cryptic note? There is some info on him at:
https://www.krigsseilerregisteret.no/sjofolk/422103
(best to use the translation function of the website or your browser).
He appears to be the same type of person as Charles Mikkelsen. HO Liabø (1913-1965) was a Norwegian sailor who served as a messboy, steward, cook and engineboy, sailing internationally on Norwegian merchant ships. During WWII, he worked for Nortraship: “The Norwegian Shipping and Trade Mission (Nortraship) was established in London in April 1940 to administer the Norwegian merchant fleet outside German-controlled areas. Nortraship operated some 1,000 vessels and was the largest shipping company in the world. It made a major contribution to the Allied war effort.” (Wikipedia). For his contribution, Liabø was decorated.
His file contains several documents. One of them concerns crew lists of ships he sailed on, which were checked by the immigration authorities. However there were some crew lists that were not in order and something suspicious seems to have been going on:
On July 11th 1941 (page 10), on the Washington Express (San Pedro-Balboa), Liabø was listed as both the 30th and the 31th crewmember out of 34. On August 5th 1941, he deserted from the Washington Express (Vancouver – Seattle) in Vancouver (page12). In addition, Arvid Lorentzen was both the 30th and 31th crewmember out of 35 when there were only 33 listed. What was going on here? On September 17th 1941, Liabø again shipped the Washington Express (Vancouver-Seattle), but was re-examined, ordered detained on board and removed from the US as mala fide seaman. There is also some confusion which persons the inspector refers to with lines 1-5 and 31-34.
Liabø then, amongst other places, sailed on Sydney on 11-5-1942 and on Melbourne on 6-9-1942, 30-7-1943, 25-9-1944 and 8-10-1944. So why did the Australian NSW Security Service have a file on him? There also do not seem to be any records of his whereabouts between his arrival back in Norway on 15-10-1945 and departure at 16-4-1949.
Furthermore, the number X3239 that was found in the Rubaiyat note has widely been accepted as a phone number. Howeer, that it was a phone number remains speculation until corroborative evidence shows up. The whole Jessica Harkness/Prosper Thomson/ Alfred Boxall line of research is based solely on the assumption that X3239 was the Thomson’s phone number.
But what if it was not a phone number? If the number was part of the cryptic note, it must have had something to do with it. If Carl Webb wrote the note, X3239 may have had something to do with his profession such as a spare part or model number. However, since the note can be interpreted as a sea fare note, X3239 may also have to do with sea fare. In that case it would not be the model number of a bolt ofcourse. It is possible that X3239 is the (international) vessel registration number of the ship the sailors in the note sailed on so the writer of the note (the ship owner or Carl?) knew which ship it concerned. If the name of the ship is known, the identities of the four surnames can be found along with the date the ship passed said ports or where it was in November 1948.
The question also is, did HO Liabø know Charles Mikkelsen or Keith Mangnosen?
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=9673049&isAv=N
@ Sandra – this NAA file for Hendrik Liabo is classified as “open access” – you can request a digital copy for $37 AUD.
Keith Waldemar Mangnosen ended up in an asylum in 1949. After that?
There was some strange story that someone had a dream about his location on the beach with his dead son.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130190026?searchTerm=mangnosen
The guy who found Mangnosen had a dream – apparently…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248247675?searchTerm=Mr.%20Neil%20W%20McRae%2C%20dream
Sandra: if you must feed us with your forlorn fanciful notions, at the very least do the right thing by your suspects and nominees and get their flaming names right. It’s not too difficult. Keith Mangnoson comes with two O’s no U’s and no ‘E’s. Got it?
Ho Liabo didn’t know anyone because he didn’t exist, nor did Charlie Chan, Idi Amin or Lap Dong and the Kung Fu Brothers. You cannot decipher the code without the one time pad.
You’re in over your head my dear lady. I don’t mean to be in any way offensive, but perhaps [Moderator: *sigh*]
Thank you, Divine Miss Em. Of course it fell out of a fucking coat pocket. Probably while the pharmacist was helping Prosper and his nasty wife slay poor sweet Carl and telephoning to the Royal Adelaide for the mortuarists to call on Dr Bennett.
@DavidMorgan he didn’t have a dream, he was in on it……ohhh the police was so naive back then
Re: the slaying of Carl, not so much slaying as accidental death and the twisted nurse self professed angel of death swoops in with her habitual calling card. it has been done
And those who husbanded the Golden Grain,
And those who flung it to the winds like Rain,
Alike to no such aureate Earth are turned
As, buried once, Men want dug up again.
@John Sanders aka Moriah aka Maria aka dozens of other aliasses,
If you have nothing constructive to say, dont say it because Im totally not interested in reading or replying to your rude, respectless and offensive mental rambling or that of your dozens of other personalities. The one that is way in over their head appears to be yourself, apparently having been posting daily on this topic for decades and stuck in his own thought patterns. It’s a shame people are being harassed and bashed in here by John Sanders who does not like other research lines than his own favorites to be explored. So if the moderator won’t intervene, trolls are going to be ignored. Got it?
As far as your sneer on misspelling is concerned, get your facts straight. Like I tried to subtly explain, and as another Swedish poster also remarked, but you apparently do not comprehend, Mangnosen is probably the wrongly spelled skandinavian name of Magnussen, as in son of Magnus. This is to be reckoned with when researching his background, which is also shrouded in mystery. Also, being Norwegian may be the common ground on which these three men may have known eachother.
To my knowledge, this blog is supposed to be all about public cipher decryption. All parts of the cryptic note deserve equal research attention in order for it to be solved and the truth to be revealed. The surname Liabo, named in the note deserves equal research attention as Charles Mikkelsen named by a witness. Likewise X3239 interpreted as a registration number deserves equal attention as X3239 interpreted as a phone number.
Jo, thanks. I know, but being from Europe obtaining a copy of that file is probably rather difficult and costly. Also, Im not willing to go to the point of paying any money to this case.
David, strange story indeed! That man’s story of a revealing dream is a total fabrication ofcourse. The only logical explanation for that is that he did not want to tell how he knew about Mangnosen’s location and was afraid of repercussions.
Sandra: cripes, didn’t mean to offend, just trying to get poor Keith’s surname spelt correctly for the sake of his heirs and successors who may feel insulted by your uncaring attitude. You are not alone of course as there are other offenders who show a similar lack of respect for the proud Mangnoson name. Shame on you.
Now looking into it, potassium chloride would have been another drug undetected (what was in that pasty,eh?) and whether there were more deaths than usual in the hospital where Jestyn worked.
how does one loose 18 teeth in the space of 10 years unless by lead poising due to constant use of hair dye? Carl changed his appearance because was on the run and possibly changed his name
There was the Door to which I found no Key;
There was the Veil through which I might not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was–and then no more of Thee and Me.
Speaking of the location where the Mangnoson’s were found, seems more like a robbers lair to me with the wheatbags to sit on. Annoying stuff, that wheat. Sticks to the socks too.
@JS Mangnoson is a misspelling and Australian butchering of the Swedish name Magnusson. as for Magnussen that is the danish spelling, rule of thumb son- swedish, sen – danish
As for spellings and grammar in the context of a chat forum , frankly darling, i don’t give a damn
“Also, Im not willing to go to the point of paying any money to this case.”
I don’t mean to be rude, Miss van Tongeren, but if your commitment to solving the O Liabo and Tsmago and ITTgts-aMS name origins only extends to googling the rather random collections of letters in the ‘code’ then I am afraid your efforts can hardly be taken seriously. It would be like writing a history of the origins of the First World War based on the Wikipedia entry about Archduke Ferdinand and ignoring the German Mesopotamian railway plans. Not to mention checking out the money trail.
Who did provide Churchill with his decades-long alcoholic living, by the way?
I’ve provided for my own decades long trolling.
The SM Rubaiyat was a one print edition….
@David: Code doesn’t necessarily imply espionage.
@em: re the book in the car. A long time ago I think someone hypothesised that owner of car is giving someone a lift. When the person is getting in the car, they notice booklet in gutter and assume it’s fallen out of car an put it in there (without mentioning it). Later it’s found in the car causing all the speculation about how it got there. (Consider similar scenario where you’re giving kids a ride and they’ve picked up a discarded booklet somewhere – pretty sure there was mention of kids somewhere along the way….)
@Celestine – I can believe Feltus preserved J’s identity for her own sake. He was (originally) researching from a police angle and possibly had some non-public knowledge, but certainly authorities would have a more ‘softly, softly’ approach to identities and details they might be liable for than an armchair detective. There’s also genuine ‘need to know’ principles – much as the whole SM saga has been a source of fascination for many of us, there is not need (or right) for us to be told any details about the case.
@Sandra – I think the Scandinavian (not necessarily Norwegian in the past, I think) connection has been scratched at before. Although I’m not a massive fan of the list of surnames idea, I will agree the Liabø strikethrough is a little interesting insofar as the ‘x’ above the ‘o’ may be someone writing names based on instructions across the telephone and not really understanding what someone means by ‘strikethrough’. As for the number, I assume the reason police were happy to think it’s a phone number is because Moseley St was so close, and Jestyn acted a bit sus. Paying the NAA wouldn’t be any more difficult or costly internationally than locally – they release the records electronically.
As for the robber’s lair – peculiar place for it, given Fort Largs across the road. More likely just a place where people might hang out. We used to go swimming nearby** (decades later) and it wasn’t uncommon to see rubbish and coal/ash among bushes along the path to the beach as though people would sit around wand wile away the time there….I don’t specifically remember sacks (wheat, potato or otherwise) but certainly discarded clothing and other stuff.
** The beach near Strathfield Tce by that stage was a lot clearer (I remember a bit of green there, but not significant bushes) – the bushes I refer to would be further North along the paths opposite the ‘Boat House’ (Paringa St) and Taperoo High (Gedville Rd).
NB: I’m intrigued about the reference to numbered trees – the beachfront along there (Outer Harbor to Fort Glanville) has Norfolk Island Pines – but didn’t realise they were numbered…..
@Milongal Why is the numbering of the trees intriguing?
sondra & me: try using your own spelling to search the Mangnoson family on line…sorry no record..and that’s exactly what to expect when you’re not with the program..Frankly darlings, there’s some of us still here at CM that really do give a damn.
Time is money!
Sandra, the number of trees is intriguing because the code obviously refers to the number, size and location of the Norfolk Island Pines at the Glenelg sideshow. The intersecting lines indicate both where the Somerton corpse was dumped and where a giant UFO took the Beaumonts to Uranus.
Nick, I just saw this post I allegedly posted here on the 17th..
“Deni on December 17, 2022 at 4:42 am said:
I pay my respects to Australian Royalty past, present and emerging.”
That wasn’t me, that was some dick mirroring my account, I would not come in here or any other places to post something like that. As you’ll notice it has no picture on the message whereas I have a picture on mine and me up at 4.42 am, I don’t think so…
Could you please delete it!
Delete yourself you nasty AFL loving, iced coffee drinking, blow fly tart eating old falsifying Beaumont-faking crow.
The Dud, a transcontinental service transports a passenger across a continent. Perth to Port Augudda or even through to Peterborough with a break of gauge does not a transcontinental service make. I’m quite sure that was my dear friend the Colonel’s point. One can say one is running the Transcontinental but it’s rather like Ansett calling it’s 747 the ‘space ship’ because of the extra legroom.
@js why the heck would you use the correct spelling of a butchered swedish name? now that is silly. once registered as Mangnoson the damage done but if you would like to trace the now Mangnoson family back to Sweden, in Sweden you would get nothing because Mangnoson as a name in that country does not exist.
leaving that aside i know not crossing ts and dotting Is is your pet peeve and as i said in a chat forum as opposed registry/ancestry/research portal it is irrelevant . Claiming superiority and being with ‘the programme’ because you manage to put something with the right spelling in an ancestry database known to many is eye rolling and so is your relentless of your pursuit of those who make typos ,etc. Why don YOU get with the programme and stop terrorising those with original thought. no idea is superior than another, you can disagree . and that is a prerogative but not because someone accidently misspelled a name in a chat forum!
MF thats was weeks ago but god bless you for coming to the Colonels aid after he made such an ass of himself on that one. OR is that you Colonel coming to your own aid under another identity mmm? mmm?
Good for you crazy kid !! Yes thats right he really meant that there was a Transcontinental but not literally.
By that logic the Colonel might argue that there’s no such thing as a hammer head shark because its head is not a actually a hammer and he’d be right wouldn’t he.
OR he could successfully argue that there’s no such a place as Burger King cos no actual BURGER KING has been coronated. Yeah your right silly me to doubt the Colonel.
Moriah van Finkenstein…very well put and you’re spot on of course, 747 being a dud and all.
Nick Pelling: I’m thinking that Deni’s post of 4.42am (gmt) 17th inst. may well have been intended for her controller Gordon Cramer.
thedude747: surely you’re talking about HUNGRY JACKS where they sell Whoppers with the lot, their splurge being “the burgers taste better at Hungry Jacks” right. So yes your spot on again dud…silly you!
I thought so Colonel , MF was just little old you doing yourself a favour to cover your embarrassing tracks and congratulating your own post.
Not anything new for you Colonel to give yourself a hand cos no-one else would, if you get my drift.
And dropping the e of dude again brilliant, never gets old.
Thats gold Colonel!!!!!
thedude747: you’d be surprised I’m sure to know that there was another Dud involved in the SM case, his name Dudley Aebi head of the Sapol Forensics and Photographic branch. I dare say he knew a thing or three about parallax error correction and other neat tricks eg., on how to turn mountains into mole hills etc. Dud was more likely to have been responsible for the shot of the posed cutting tools and other items from the abandoned case, as opposed to Jimmy Durham from Glenelg. And you know something else, although he was boss of the board everyone from dickless tracies in the typing pool to Commisioner of Police called him ‘The Dud’ and he loved it, so how does that grab you Nick?.
thedude747: initials MF only bring two names to mind and neither of them are me. Both were named Frazer/Fraser one Mike, a Melbourne journo and fellow vet (not pet), the other Malcolm, a Prime Minister who as Minister for the army in early ’68 flew over here to seek my opinion on how the Tet offensive was progressing and if I happened to know whether Nancy no pants was still entertaining at the Bong Lai bar in Vungers. I’ll sleep on it and see what other MFs are hiding away in my dim and distant past and hopefully report before busing up to Saigon for some Xmas (Noen) in country R & R.
Colonel Im surprised you’d be at “Bong Lai” , you seem more of a “Hot Lips” guys to me.
However if you know anything about parallax error connection apart from looking on the Wiki page you would understand why the whole 3 inch thing is a crock. Here’s a hint , look at the shadows in the fab 4 group shot.
In the cryptic note, at LIABO, does anybody else notice a faint circle on top of the “A” as in Liåbo?
thedude747: Bong Lai translates to ‘future’ unfortunately it appears you don’t have any.
Nobody notices this, Söndra. It doesn’t exist.
Johnny, you said this:
“I’m thinking that Deni’s post of 4.42am (gmt) 17th inst. may well have been intended for her controller Gordon Cramer.”
Who the hell is Gordon Cramer, what do you mean by controller?
No one controls me, only me, I control myself!!
So do tell, who is this Gordon Cramer?
@Thedude 747
I have no doubt that Johnny, or as you affectionaly call him the colonel, has more identitys on here than I can even count..
The new message, allegedly posted by me, proves that he’s still playing his naughty little games, nothing will make me think otherwise..
P.S. Keep up the good work!
John Sanders
Something VERY fishy going on here.
On my post of December 19, 2022 at 2:22 pm over on the ‘My Name is Charles’ thread I mentioned the Tet Offensive but this was censored, or should I say pilchered, and then Bang! – you mention that very event on this thread on December 20, 2022 at 1:19 pm. And it WASN’T pilchered!
More proof methinks of the circle jerks between Nick the Pilchard, “Sardine” Sanders, “Bloater” Bowes and Gordon Crayfish. You all pretend to disagree with each other vehemently and hold each other in deep contempt but actually you’re all swimming in the same (old) school.
I can think of something more relevant that MF might refer to but being a gentleman, even if a deceased one… Honestly though, you’ll be claiming that you were in league with Big Malcolm and John Kerr to bring about the Dismissal next. Or were you Norman Gunston’s oppo?
Glad you like my stylish use of spacing – I’m sure it reminds you of the wide open spaces in your own mind. Tumbleweed on the prairies and all that. (The last – and only – time I cried was when Mary went blind in ‘LHOTP’).
I don’t want to picture you with your duds down, but given the “plotting & brewings” of the “crones” that you mention I’m sure you had brewer’s droop and weren’t up to the job. The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the meat. Smut moi?
With all this willy waving (and some t*tty shaking) on CM lately a poor phantom such as myself really doesn’t know which way to turn. Now my old colleague (and murderer) Ann O is saying that all these harpies such as Caz from Coraki, Bella from Ballina, Lulu from Lennox Head and Deni from Deniliquin are actually Peter Bowes. I think they are all his concubine cutie but who knows? Sandra thinks they are all you. And I NEVER claimed to be Chopper Read or Chopper, King of the Angels – props to Peter Cave and the New English Library – either for that matter. P.S. I’m still smarting about having my copy of ‘Mama’ confiscated at school circa 1971-72. P.P.S. Joe Hawkins was a wimp compared to Chopper!
What I hav lernt:
1) You can make ethnic slurs such as constantly referring to DA as “Mistry” and calling Jestyn a “withered old Jew”.
.2) You can make excessively offensive remarks about someone’s appearance such as DA’s birthmark or his kith and kin’s use of botox.
3) You can pretend to be another contributor in order to make them look stupid or worse.
4) You can post here under multiple monikers in order to spray your bile that little bit further (as if I would ever do such a thing).
5) You can get away with a bucketload of misogynistic and homophobic putdowns.
6) You can’t make a joke if it refers to Frances Burney or mention the Vietnam War (unless your name is Colonel Sanders – now demoted further to Staff Sergeant).
Compliments of the Season to one and all.
“The path is clear
Though no eyes can see
The course laid down long before
And so with gods and men
The sheep remain inside their pen
Though many times they’ve seen the way to leave.”
(For Pat if she’s still reading this rubbish)
Ghost Steve: gosh darn, you’ve discovered our cabal and conspiracy, I guess we’re going to have to hang up our hoods now.
Deni: I could have made the set up look a heck of a lot more incriminating, had I been the dirty digger in the dirtpile. You’ll have to get up a lot earlier than 4.42am next time you try something similar; I saw it coming a mile off as I suspect did most others.
Deni: “who the Hell is Gordon Cramer & So do tell who is this Gordon Cramer? you ask in all assumed innocence. Your two posts of 19th inst. on the ‘My name is Charlie’ thread make particular mention a Gordon Cranmer [sic] and Cramer’s cretins. So if their not he, then who the hell are they, father Santa Clause come early. You couldn’t lie straight in box Dawn!
S.H…. Staff Sergeant I can live with, they being on better pay than the one pipper you demoted me to yesterday. Notwithstanding that in real life I was but a lowly “shillin’ a day bloomin’ good pay, lucky to get it, shillin’ a day” Tommy Atkins type.
Nick,
I think you’ll have to confess that everyone in the group is a figment of your own imagination and that when the nurses let you out you attack the WordPress.
Obviously, I am real…
But ChatGpt wasn’t so sure.
“I am not able to determine the nature of your reality or existence. However, from the perspective of your own subjective experience, you are real to yourself. “
Steve H – casting aspergions on Fanny Burney! Tet’s offensive and nothing to do with poor old Somerton Man!
Hey, Pete, he’s giving you a few back handlers here – imagination and cuties! Colonel, they’re all vegan my way, so not much call for your secret recipes here, I don’t think we’d understand most of them.
Anyway I’m not sticking around. Sigh! gone!
Yes indeed Colonel and my guess is that contrary to the grandiose picture you try and pain about being a hero in Vietnam and being an advisor to old PM’s Im guessing that your reality was bar fly duty at “Hot lips” and any of the dodgy “hungers” bars you likely spent most of your time in ,slapping the bar girls on the ass and doling out cheap Charlie tips while sipping Saigon tea.
Colonel you’d need three promotions to be an asshole !!!Thats it your demoted.
From now on its Private second class!!!
Nick
On 15 December on the ‘My Name is Charles’ thread Bob Nowak did write:
“In fact anyone outside the Cramer/Bowes/Pelling/Sanders cabal barely gets a look in these days except for their “useful idiots”.”
Hmmm. I wonder who Bob Nowak could be?
And who did he think the “useful idiots” were?
But I can’t quite picture your particular Gang of Four* as members of the Illuminati. We’ll have to wait a while yet for the New World Order.
Is John Sanders Cesare to your Dr Caligari?
As for me, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.
Not to be taken seriously.
Sincere good wishes for Christmas and the New Year.
*”The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak, the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home.”
Deni my love.
When I was a little girl in my nursery I had a poster erected.
Baby —> Babies was just one of its helpful hints.
It also made early references to possessive apostrophe’s and the difference between you’r and youre and you’se.
Now I would never criticise punctuation or grammar simply on the face of it. The Field Marshal is totally dyslexic after all… but unlike you he has a vast depth of knowledge and makes interesting comments. Whereas you’re attempt to insert yourself into this and the Beaumont case is merely humiliating.
No, Deni. You were not at the beach: you were in your double wide in the newly minted City of Elizabeth. Poor Eliz’abeth.
Zorba: dodgy “hungers” bars?…sounds Greek to me!
@Sandra – sorry I missed your earlier. It’s only been a couple of days, but I barely remember the reference numbers – I think in one of the articles about Mangnoson it mentioned something like “near tree 132” – I found this interesting (maybe a better word than intriguing) because I’d never heard of those trees being mentioned by number, but figured it might give away to be more precise about where he was found (rather than “across from Fort Largs” or “opposite Strathfield Tce”). My experience of those beaches (granted decades later) is that the sort of bushes you could hide in would be further North….
In any event, as a start I would have *assumed* the counting started at Outer Harbor (although not sure how much of what is now Lady Gowrie Dve existed then (I’ve got an idea that until the 1970s there wasn’t much beyond Osborne Rd – so maybe that’s a plausible starting point)). Then we have to work out whether all trees were counted, or just one side of the road – and factor in an error margin for trees that may have been lost (or perhaps even ones planted since then). EDIT: Add to that that very little seems to exist North of Strathfield Tce in 1948 and all bets are off….
Maybe it’s all an exercise in futility, but the notion of identifying a location based on the Norfolk Island Pines intrigued me because I didn’t know it was a thing.
Having a quick glance at S&M, it looks like Osborne barely existed (part of the Port Adelaide Postal District), Outer Harbor was recognised in the Port Adelaide district (not sure if it was a suburb), Taperoo doesn’t appear to be mentioned – although ‘Draper’ is mentioned as part of Largs Bay postal district (there’s still a train station Draper between Taperoo and Largs North (which would have been referred to as Swansea and appears in the PA district)).
So perhaps if there’s no houses (and possibly no road?) trees were the logical way to count – but might be interesting to find out where from….
LOL. “The field marshal has vast depth of knowledge and makes interesting comments”. Gushes Moriah Finkelstein.
Thats PRIVATE Sanders and his ventriloquist dummy he’s calling M Finkelstein giving himself a hand again.
How sad the former Colonel is on his way to a dishonourable discharge.
….So yeah, there we was in the deep ‘J’ Tet ’68. Just us three me, Chook Fowler and good ol’ Syph Sanders VD. On patrol way out front of beefa Bravo Company and looking for stray pussy as usual. We’d earlier been hackin’ our way through a wall of humane flesh and watching our mean asses on an unerring path towards the fabled Asua Valley short time bar & scrub house….When there before us in a clearing on a street of mud stood a run down old bamboo hooch and a full company of NVA main force Charlies in neat order outside the tiny slit opening all in their starched black pajamas and reeking of Eau de Phu Quoc ‘nookie mummy’ after shave….Ah shit what could we do but simply join the queue and patiently wait our turn for a poke & a rub, I kid you not, what else could we do. ….Moral to the story being sure, War is Hell (W. T.Sherman) but don’t mean nuthin’ to the fine ol’ Hunert’n Fust ‘Creaming Beagles’ when out on ‘rootin’ patrol into Marlboro Country..
Mariah Deni Partypooper: : looks like you got it up in one hon, so need for cross examination of Zany Zulu Dawn from Lizbef with her failed attempt at character assassination of lightly decorated KFC bird Colonel O. L. von Sanders Jr. with his extinguished record of service to himself and uncounted alter egos.
Good old Nick has been an absolute saint letting some of you fellas through the portal to measure up, especially against each other. Time to let him have a break from all of this Somerton Man palaver and get back to his Voynich compelling work, advocaaat and lemonade and his long suffering family. Have a slashing good one! Best wishes for the festivities!
Elly, on behalf of the Jingle Belles
Oi, Bowesie, aren’t you also known as Roetveeg Piet around here? We reckon Sandra von T Hendrik Liabo’s file in her stocking for keeping things interesting.
Good old Nick has been an absolute saint letting some of you fellas through the portal to measure up, especially against each other. Time to let him have a break from all of this Somerton Man palaver and get back to his Voynich compelling work, advocaat and lemonade and his long suffering family. Have a slashing good one! Best wishes for the festivities!
Elly, on behalf of the Jingle Belles
Oi, Bowesie, aren’t you also known as Roetveeg Piet around here? We reckon Sandra von T deserves Hendrik Liabo’s file in her stocking for keeping things interesting.
Did Carl Webb join Melbourne Uni after Swinburne? Have a look at this article, for a C. Webb apparently was a member of the Engineering Students’ Club in 1925:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article146183042
Hi Sandra – I think Pat found this article too. Nick enquired with the uni and they had no record for him. Carl Webb received a technical certificate, to enter university he would need matriculation and also at that time to sit a university exam. There was only one university in Melbourne at that time, attended mainly by students from private schools or the government select entry Melbourne High School (for boys). It was very hard for working class students to progress to university.
Ok thx, I didnt see her link. Strange there is no record, for why else would a C. Webb be a member of Melbourne Uni Students Club. Unless its another C. Webb ofcourse.
Giáng sinh vui vẻ & Chúc mừng năm mới Good time Charlies & Voynicherios all.
@Those being totally at sea
After interpreting the Rubaiyat cryptic note, the next phase in order to solve it is to try to put it into context and make some sense of it, then search for evidence.
At first it seemed like just a simple yet mindboggling meeting note of sorts, with surnames foreign to Australia, two probable port codes and a German word.
Then it appeared that this interpretation of the cryptic note looks strikingly similar to a ship’s crew list. Such crew lists are official documents to be drawn up usually by the first officer of a ship and handed over to Immigration authorities upon arriving in a foreign harbor. On international seafare such crew lists often have 30-35 crew members listed (30 on page one of the form and the rest on page two), often with a few foreign crewmembers (such as from Africa) taken on halfway the journey. Additionally, a crew list form always mentions two ports (arriving at/ from port) and a date.
See for example crew lists HO Liabø was on: https://www.krigsseilerregisteret.no/krigsseilerregisteret/api/file/1009637
Now this is what I am on about. This interpretation of the cryptic note is very similar to the preliminary jottings of a crew list, or better yet the last page of it, because it contains 4 foreign surnames (2 African, 1 Chinese and 1 Norwegian), 2 probable port codes and a date (samstagabend). But we need solid proof for this.
We could find proof in the official crew list form that belongs with the cryptic note, if this interpretation is correct. These crew list forms often are still kept in the archives, but are hard to find. So this is the point where this line of research has led to so far.
To narrow down the search for this crew list even further, a few things can be deducted:
– Carl Webb may well be on the crew list as first or third officer of the ship.
The first officer usually is supposed to draw up the crew list form, and since the “crew list”-like cryptic note could have been written by Carl Webb, he could have been the first officer. Additionally, the brush in his suitcase was reported by Det Brown to be that of the third officer of a ship (at 6:45):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbQXgC0tDEo
– Liabo in the cryptic note can almost certainly only be one person: Henrik Olav Liabø. This can be deducted as follows. Liabø is a Norwegian name. Norwegian seafarers in the period right before 1948, WWII, have been well documented. In the concerning register below, only two men with the surname Liabø occur: Henrik Olav Liabø and his nephew Halvor Vilhelm Liabø. HVL mainly sailed to Norway, UK, Canada and the US. HOL also sailed to Australia, amongst many other places:
https://www.krigsseilerregisteret.no/sjofolk/422103/monstringer
– We are probably looking for a Norwegian company as the ship’s owner of the crew list. This is because HO Liabø is on the crew list we are looking for, and he only sailed on ships of Norwegian ship’s owners.
Summarising, at this stage, by following HO Liabø’s timeline of crew lists, it could be possible to find proof of a crew list that contains all of the surnames contained in the cryptic note: Goabab, Liao, Bimpanet and Liabø, which will then probably contain Carl Webb as first or third officer.
But there is a major setback. The crucial period of 1946-1948 so far is nowhere to be found among HO Liabø’s crew lists…
Concerning Familysearch, all entries there are supposed to be sourced during submittal.
Word getting around is that SM found his planted ROK alongside an open and marked ’47 phone book in a red PMG call box upon alighting at the Whyte St. bus terminus. Location being up aways from the John Miller reserve convenience and just a short distance thence to the all new Somerton Sailing Club. SM who was of course being watched and may have expected it, dialled a number but got no response. Then apparently in answer to a call of nature he made for the nearby no frills change room dunny for a good dump. After attending to business and while fastening his duds prior to pocketing the book, now short of it’s cover and handy centre page spread, he checked himself for decency. In so doing he then noticed a sign above the door informing anyone so interested that Sister Jessie was offering cheap thrills and to call her on X3239 for an appointment which disgusted him but for no reason he jotted down the info onto the ‘unmarked’ last page in pencil. In that the recent bowel movement failed to settle his heaving stomach SM decided that a good meal might be in order to set things right with his strange feeling of dread. He hastened then to yon sailing club where the engaging Greek short order cook and useful hustled off to knock up a feast fit for a man’s last supper, fresh local toadies and chef’s special skin and all potato latkes. Story goes that after noshing and calling again from a pay phone in the foyer SM exited said premises and was tagged as he laboured slowly north along Sth. Esplinade towards Glenelg. When he passed by Bickford Tce. opposite the beach he was seen to carefully deposit his handy little book of polms into a bin outside a vacant corner block No 2 (C. Freeman). After which he crossed over to the improvised crippled children’s stairway and started his perilous descent. At about the halfway point poor chap was seen to falter, lurching sideways clutching his stomach then to tumble through a loose timber railing. SM landed heavily on his back in the damp hard packed beach sand a fall of about six feet with his shoulders and neck resting at a strange angle against a concrete seawall. He lay there inert and unconvious, either dead or near to it . Must have been a bit of a shock to the afternoon beach crowd though none were concerned enough to render the well dressed middled aged stranger any assistance. Wasn’t until much later in the evening that the watchers a man and a woman made cautious approach and attended to their pre arranged duties, now made easy by the helpful turn of events. Poor feller indeed our Jerry Somerton just as well it wasn’t someone important eh?
Sandra/Jo: There was of course the Victorian Technical School in Footscray, now the Victorian University, which opened it’s doors to those with necessary tech. quals. in 1916 and was indeed an accredited University in its own right to all intents. If you’se all or Nick are still Keane to obtain post Swinburn records for Carl, that would be the place to check out. Close to home for our lad at just the right level of maturity too, indeed a much better choice for a local lad and more in his field of desired trade skills than staid old Melbourne Uni. as was the case in them days.
Another context that is being explored is that of Carl Webb’s possible activities in the goldmining business. This is based on the preliminary results of the hair analysis, that suggest such activities or having been in the proximity thereof. However definite proof of this will depend on the results and opinions of the official forensic experts.
In this context, “AIAQC” of the Rubaiyat cryptic note could be the airport code of Southern Cross, WA, if it is assumed that it was traced over incorrectly by the detectives and should read “AUSQC” instead. Southern Cross is an old goldmining town in the middle of one of Australia’s largests golddeposit area’s. It is also on the route between Perth and Adelaide.
The African surnames in the cryptic note can be explained in this context as contacts of goldmining activities in Africa; the Chinese surname as a contact in the goldmining business as well, as many Chinese miners came to Australia throughout history.
Let’s hope that in the coming year we can move on from the phase of interpreting and contexts and some conclusive answers will be found.
@ Sandra, it is possible , i think the mining angle has been discussed , in relation to possible connection to Broken hill. i am just leaning to the fact that the lead might have been due to hair dye but all angles are possible.
Another crap theory.
Sandra: guess it’s also an outside chance that Carl Webb attended the then long established Ballarat School of mining which opened it’s doors to aspiring mine management and engineering types around 1870. When it gained accreditation it became Federation University and opened a second campus closer to Springvale from memory.
Peterbowes: From memory, I think we may have mentioned once or twice Len Brown’s near gaff on Inside Story apropos the travellers suitcase having been left unattended at the Adelaide Station “rest….ah um” (restaurant or restroom?) by SM upon arrival, either by accident or intent and not booked into the cloak room at all. This might well explain away it’s having been found in an unlocked state when it was recovered six weeks later by the CIB Leane team. In that case whose to say it hadn’t been searched by station staff seeking identification of an owner prior to it being logged in to comply with S.A. Railways policy on lost or abandoned property. In that no redemption chit was recovered from the body might also be considered in that alternative context. It’s the little things, too often overlooked, that can make or break a case, keeping us on the ball and eternally vigilant.
Nickpelling how do I contact you personally please?
If I can’t can you please do me a favour and ban me from this forum, I can’t find my account to let myself out..
I can take a lot of harmless banter but when i’m completely bullied by persons on here, that takes the cake, so to speak..
People using my name, or others just dead set on hurting me gets under my skin.
It may sound childish to some, but i’m a 63 year old woman who left my bullies back in high school..
This is a great forum but I can’t work out how you let people abuse others, like this here:
“Moriah Deni Finkelstein on December 19, 2022 at 8:37 am said:
Delete yourself you nasty AFL loving, iced coffee drinking, blow fly tart eating old falsifying Beaumont-faking crow.”
There are a few more but that one will do..
For the record, I have never once told an untruth in here or on your Beaumont page, everything I wrote was 100% true.
No doubt John will be laughing at my unease in here, you did it mate, you succeeded in getting rid of me!!
Miss Demi, I think you’ll find that the comment was made in jest. Moriah was just Jestyn. I think crows are Adelaide supporters famous for drinking Balfours Iced Pies and eating Farmers Union Meat Coffee. Or something. It’s a cultural reference that someone actually from Adelaide might have recognised.
Please cease this appalling abuse of John Sanders. If one more word of this calumny reaches my ears I shall sue! We are not the same person. We are not lovers, but we know the truth. Mr Sanders is teaching me to play the mandolin. When the sun’s rays come over the yard arm my chickens shall find me composed. Good day, Miss Deni.
PB: ……that may well account for Senior porter Harold North substituting for cloak room attendant on the witness list to attest to what went down on the day, he not being aware, or not inclined to revealing how it really went down on the day, ie., that the suitcase was booked in by staff as left baggage and not by the owner as was inferred and thus taken for granted. Simple logic that really changes the game truth be known.
Peterbowes..looks like my slip up re-phrase miss keyed…on page 29 of Len’s interview with Littlemore in ’78 he said “the suitcase that we found in the railway refresh – cloakroom” without the ‘Ah Um’ but, then on page 31 he went on to say “……the case that was left in the railway station”, nothing about cloakroom in that exchange. Splitting hairs perhaps though, bare in mind Len at that time was a Det. Superintendant and must have been well aware of how Q & A’s could effect the outcome of a police case for or agin.
[da Da da da Da da da] Leane
[da Da da da Da da da] Keane
[da Da da da] inquiries
[da Da da da] diaries
[da Da da da Da da da] bean
There is an old colonel called John
[da Da da da Da da] pat-pong
[da Da da da] suck him
[da Da da da] fuck him
And being civil, he just goes along
[da Da da da Da da da] Nick
[da Da da da Da da da] prick
[da Da da da Da]
[da Da da da Da]
[da Da da da Da da da] lick
[da Da da da Da da da] tits
[da Da da da Da da da] zits
[da Da da da] aids
And herpes in spades
And her face would fair give you the shits
Fuck you Jean Brodie with your fake account, and Fuck Sanders with your disgusting words and appalling speech towards others!!
I know I can just stop coming in here but I would rather not be temped too..
This forum is a disgrace to the memory of Carl “Charles” Webb, the Somerton man..
So if you want to sue me, go ahead, I have enough crap on you and your sickly Sanders to fill a book to fight you back..
As for the rest of the members in here, the real ones, not the fake ones that Johny makes, good luck to you all, but if I was you, I would find somewhere else to discuss the topic, The Big Footy forum or maybe Whirlpool.
There are nice people over there that listen and don’t put you down for your opinions!!
Jean Brodie: you’ve gotta love our Deni, although feisty and dumb, one can’t but help take notice of the old doxy’s colourful turn of expression, mostly foul. If only once in a while she had given us her honest opinion on some aspect of a trending topic for debate. Sadly she never has, not once; all Deni has ever had to offer from her first unsolicited intrusion into CM space has consisted of accusory diatribe, inueno and baldface self serving untruthes…oh and recently as ‘Team Leader’ at Big Tootie BC, how everone hates her.
There are no members here, you termagant. Please stop coming and stop feeding us your putrid lies. Also tell that stupid woman on bigfooty to shut up. And no, you are not related to the Somerton Man by marriage. I appreciate and approve of the fact you have a cat. Now go spend time with him and provide for his care instead of wasting your welfare cheques on joining online fantasy fora.
@Milongal – The numbering of the trees might have been done by the newspaper to specify the location. Maybe Google Maps can be of use identifying the exact location. Since I believe the Carl Webb/Mangnosen/Charles Mikkelsen/Carl Thompson cases may very well be related (identity theft), the lurid “robbers lair” may also be. In case Carl Webb was poisoned, this may be the place where he was also taken to and stripped of his identity, before being taken (or rowed) to the beach further south. I noticed it is also very close to port Adelaide and the seamen scene.
@Em – To my knowledge the hair for DA’s analysis was taken from the chest, so probably not dyed. Also, the results of the mass spectrometry test were layered, meaning the elements were build-in the hair during growth and changed as the hair grew longer. They could use that to construct a timeline in which the elements found in the hair changed over time.
Speaking of Google Maps, I noticed that the Somerton Man site has been flagged at 5 Cook Cres, Warradale?
@Milongal – On the picture in the newspaper I also notice what seem to be 4 trees behind the bushes. Counting pine trees on Google Maps on Lady Gowrie Dr, starting from the north, one side only and taking into account missing trees, I end up near Gedville road crossing where there is a small circular patch of bushes near the road. Its near Fort Largs too and just 15 mins walking from North Haven.
Sandra: whatever you’ve been snorting sis I’d love to give it whack. could it be a version of the so called Dutch courage that Admiral Van Tromp gave to his less than enthuiastic Zeelieden before tangling with their braver matelot oponents.
Its called Common Sense Jøhn Sånderson.
On an increased contrast/darkness version of the cryptic note picture, a number seems to be written on the topright edge: “U 1055”.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wBjrIWvfhOLWj2UiE-gB1JRVBCB2N6yk/view?usp=share_link
U-1055 was a German submarine that went missing on 23 april 1945. It was posted as missing when it failed to return to Norway or signal its position after the cessation of hostilities:
https://uboat.net/boats/u1055.htm
@Calypso, is the original complete picture available for download anywhere please?
@Eligh – Ofcourse, the original of the picture that I showed above, was taken from this website:
http://cipherfoundation.org/modern-ciphers/tamam-shud-somerton-man/somerton-man-rubaiyat-code-scans/
I took the top one and increased contrast/darkness. When I rotated the picture I noticed the number.
These are the ones edited by me:
Complete picture with high contrast/darkness:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cg0Rrvbk4phbmPsYpr244HSY57zURiLU/view?usp=sharing
Complete picture with marked up artefacts (doodles, letters):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VAbrBHoUkebMtJ6nff77OsiJkwIoFyQX/view?usp=share_link
Calypso, I found that applying shadows brought up various letters and numbers but these were barely visible. I found one four digit number about half way down on the right hand side. Photoshop has (or had) a shadow tool but I was using a US Geological Survey free image analysis tool that may not be available now (I can’t remember the name of the software at present).
Calypso: U1055 was also the telephone number for a removals/storage/packers company at 20 Westall St, Hyde Park, Adelaide. See “The Advertiser” 7 Feb 1946 Page 12
Calypso: there you go, Somerton Man may have had employment as consignment marker with Clive’s unamed R/S/P mob H.H. Vale at Hyde Park hence possession of the packaging (carton) tools and stencil brush smaller than a 3rd mate’s. Not as interesting as a missing German submarine but, any port in a storm what?
Though currently trolled out I’d like to go in to bat for Trove!
https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/2023/jan/06/national-library-of-australias-free-digital-archives-may-be-forced-to-close-without-funding?fbclid=IwAR3XPq02Vrue6LYXZocZVJSBUBW6ImbJYTVMH-DM6NlVD59E8Mvy01RhGUQ
Calypso, the image processing software is ImageJ and it is available for free from the US National Institute of Health (NIH).
wait a second , wasnt this traced on to another paper. it just could have been a water mark from the secondary paper
Spotted another doodle worth looking at, under the N of Bimpanet. Looks like a very well drawn giraffe’s head. So here’s an update:
Darkened complete picture:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lAql_-1dnL5BM3nQ4Tpiw1SDNo6oK8cp/view?usp=sharing
Darkened complete picture, with doodles, accents and numbers/letters:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hRZNJadgW3jhDT7ssFSWHKvYSdgmnMJL/view?usp=sharing
Byron, it may be the same number you spotted too. I used the simple tools that come with Windows: the basic Photo viewer and Paint. I also notice some barely visible letters and numbers, (such as a possible VIIC above U1055), but I did not mark unclear artefacts because there is a lot of background noise.
The fate of the German submarine U1055 (type VIIC) after the war had ended is apparently unknown, or that of its crew of 49 (!). It was also supposed to return to Norway, adding to several other references to Norway related to this case: Norwegian sailor Charles Mikkelsen/Carl Thompson, Norwegian sailor Liabø and possibly Keith Mangnoson. This almost seems to imply that there was some sort of interaction going on between Carl Webb, the Norwegians and the nazi’s. Maybe gold should also be added to that list.
Clive, thanks for providing that information. So best case scenario is that it was the phone number of a packers company, or a personal interest of a merchant sailor in submarine U1055. Merchant vessels were targeted by the nazi’s during WW2, so its very plausible that the missing submarine U1055 was discussed on board of a Norwegian merchant vessel.
Worst case scenario is that Carl Webb was on to something and got himself involved in a hornet’s nest.
@Em – My guess is that they just drew with a velt tip pen on a photograph. When you zoom in to the cryptic note picture, you can notice the tracing over. You can see the original drawing beneath it. Even looks like the ink of the line drawn at the bottom had not dried properly and wiped out.
@JS – That’s a possible scenario too. However evidence needs to fit in a certain context and IMO for the context of seafaring there is far more circumstantial evidence.
@JS – I can also imagine why the police was so vague about “the other number” that was found near the cryptic note, besides X3239, if it was U1055.
Hi all, I’m enjoying reading the posts on this topic.
@NickPelling, please may we have a new thread dedicated to searching the images for markings? I think it may be productive, and good to keep in one place. Could the last few posts be migrated in?
@Calypso, thanks so much for the link to the starting images and your adjusted/marked images. Food for thought and further exploration.
A couple of months ago I spent some time searching the images. I started with the image from DA’s site, and made no image adjustments. My observations and hypotheses were posted here in Nov.:
https://tomsbytwo.com/2022/11/04/where-to-now-with-jessica-harkness-involvement/
My marked up images so far are at the following locations:
https://imgur.com/9KMAmKv
https://imgur.com/DYLxjEO
https://imgur.com/fUT7YDK
https://imgur.com/VmC2Goa
https://imgur.com/BkyqyWz
Apologies for ads on imgur (I think I need to find an alternative… suggestions?)
Summary of observations:
1.There are many indentations, due to pressure from writing on another sheet placed on top
2.The markings overlap and can be hard to separate. It can be time consuming.
3.“Jessie x3239” is repeated many times
4.“Jessie x3239” is written in a stylised way. The dot on the “i” is a circle with a cross in it (hug kiss?), and forms the “x” preceding the phone number.
5.There are several treble clefs
6.“Jessie” (and tentatively “x3239”) are also on the Boxall Rubaiyat
7.“Jessie x3_39” is also on the Tamam Shud slip
Theories:
1.The inscriptions are in a feminine hand
2.The repeated “Jessie x3239” were written by Jessica Thomson (nee Harkness) as the owner
3.Jessie owned the book for some time, given the number of indentations
4.The writing may have been on pieces of paper to exchange contact details with friends
5.The writing may have been ‘doodlings’ e.g. occupying your hands while while talking on the phone
6.Jessie was musical, judging by the ability to write music notation
7.Jessie was the original owner of both the Freeman and Boxall Rubaiyats
8.The same indentations on the Tamam Shud slip confirm that it came from the Freeman Rubaiyat
I’d appreciate and welcome any comments on the markups (confirming and disproving are both useful!).
@Calypso, please see link below for what I can see around the U1055 area. I think I can make out a treble clef and “Jessie x32(3)_”. There are a lot of overwrites in this area. The link is a GIF that toggles between unmarked and marked images.
https://imgur.com/Zf9GEeq
As far as the number X3239 is concerned, what proof of its accuracy is there? There does not seem to be any photograph of it around. As far as I know, there has only been mention of DA being told that it was written in small letters below the note.
Eligh – When checking the image, it is very important to make sure that the background noise is disregarded. This image is littered with shadows, bumps, dents, fibers and folds of the coarse paper, making it extremely hard to distinguish between true markings and illusions. Focussing on illusions would be very counterproductive and distracting.
Thanks Calypso. I think what I’m seeing are real markings (indents from writing on a piece of paper placed on top). Yes, they are hard to see. It takes time and effort. And possibly a good 4k monitor.
Calypso: I think the P/S/R business at Hyde Park was named H.H. Vale
Let’s see what can be deducted from what we know so far about these two numbers: X3239 and U1055.
The police -who studied the original cryptic note, not just a photocopy- mentioned vaguely that they had noticed either one or two numbers. One detective said there was one, another said there were two but that the second one was of a business and not relevant. Neither number was pointed out in the picture of the note. It was mentioned though that the number was at the top right hand of the note, but also that it was below the note in tiny lettering. It can therefore be deducted that there must have been indeed two numbers, one at the top right hand and one below the note.
Since the number U1055, as I have shown above, is located on the top right hand in tiny lettering, it can be assumed that this is the one the police mentioned to be on the top right hand.
Therefore, it can be deducted that X3239 must have been written below the note. However, to my knowledge, no one beside the police has been able to locate where this most reknown number was supposed to have been written. Therefore, there also is no way for us to verify it’s accuracy.
We can assume the police did some proper detective work in following the leads of these numbers.
We know they followed up on X3239 as the phonenumber of the Thomson’s, but apparently this was a dead lead.
We also know they followed up on “the other number”, if I recall correctly they mentioned it was a general number of a business and not relevant. They must have followed the lead of the number U1055 as a phonenumber, as Clive noted, to that of the P/S/R business of H.H. Vale in Hyde Park, Adelaide. It can be assumed that they inquired at Vale if they had ever seen Carl Webb before, or if he had ever worked there, and shown them the picture of CW. Apparently the answer was negative, and the police mentioned to the press that that phonenumber was not relevant. Both numbers as Adelaide phonenumbers appear to have been dead leads. It could therefore very well be that both numbers were not Adelaide phonenumbers, but perhaps phonenumbers of another city, or not even phonenumbers at all.
Another issue is that of the stencilling brush that was suggested above as possibly having been used by workers of said Vale packaging company. However, the police inquired with the “other number” company and therefore must have asked them if they used such stencilling brushes in their company. Apparently the answer to that was also negative, as the police stated that it was likely used by a third officer of a ship.
“The other number” was never made public like X3239 was, and one detective only mentioned that there was just one number. Why did the police act vaguely about “the other number”? If they really believed it was the phonenumber of an Adelaide business, it could have been made public, just like X3239 was. However, U1055 being the name of a missing nazi German submarine is highly unsettling and may well have been the reason to be vague about it. Remember, the cryptic note was also sent to the Australian navy for decryption, who were also very familiar with the name of the missing U1055 submarine. Also note, they stated that the cryptic note was not a code nor a cipher.
Furthermore, what does the rather peculiar location of U1055, the tiny lettering, being written vertically on the very edge of the paper, tell us as to what sort of number it might be? What sort of number is written in the margin, on the edge, in tiny lettering, vertically?
Below is a link to further evidence of “Jessie x3239” engravings on the page. There are many of them. I’ll try to post more, in hopes that others can also see the markings. I think these markings prove the existence of the name Jessie and number x3239.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nltz9vuuyczds28/2023-01-10%20Jessiex3239%20no1.gif?dl=0
Hoping that Dropbox works without ads.
Eligh, here’s my honest opinion on your observations.
Rule number one in science is that any measurements that are at the same level as the background will not be accepted as evidence. Ever. A threshold needs to be set above the background level above which measurements may count as evidence. Anything below the threshold level goes into the box of “speculation” and “illusion”.
What it boils down to in the case of the cryptic note photo is that the lighting threshold needs to be set to such a level that all background around an artefact is not visible anymore. The lighting of the photo needs to be increased to the extend that when the background disappears, anything that is still visible can be argued as evidence.
IMO you have not set the lighting threshold above the background level in the area of your artefacts. Also, as I argued above, the number X3239 was supposed to be noticed below the note, not in the middle or all over it.
@eiligh from that i am starting to think that what if the book was not Carls but Jessie’s all along and she stuffed the trn slip into his pocket and the lost the book on her way home
On first glance you don’t suppose Carl would have reacted to the following add, especially a used one with battery, but all is not what it seems:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47134486?searchTerm=u1055#
@Sandra the Warradale stuff must be someone playing funny buggers (or perhaps accidentally adding bad coordinates), It used to be on the beach near Ferris Ave, I think.
The tree count is interesting – I agree The area near Gedville sounds more like the description of the bushes – but in my head “near Fort Largs” is a bit off – If there was nothing beyond Fort Largs I’d expect something more like “past/North of/beyond Fort Largs”, or if there was another landmark why that wouldn’t be used. It’s interesting they don’t use the street references – while S&M doesn’t seem to list any houses beyond Strathfield Tce, Fullers Street directory 1948 has a lot of streets drawn in there (although admittedly they don’t entirely resemble how those suburbs are today – so some of that might be future planning or dirt tracks that subsequently got implemented differently).
NB: That map also has all sorts of confusion with random suburb names (and possibly beach names) all over the place….
Calypso: upon locating H.H. Vale at Clive’s 20 Westall St. Hyde Park address on Sands & Mcdougall for1948, then checking back the history of residency, I came accross an N.A. Webb at No. 36 which rang a bell. That particular Webb family was known to me from earlier inquiries infact, I had just posted about ‘Noel’ Webb on the first Carl Webb thread. He was a lawyer, aboriginal activist like his dad, Justice Webb, though his law career and worthy cause, was cut short by WW2. He inlisted in Sydney at the outbreakf and Warrant Officer Webb of 2/1 Inf. Btn died in Greece 1941…ps: the H.H. Vale removalist etc., phone numbers in Adelaide small ads of the period included UF and D prefixes along with the aforesaid U 1055.
Milongal – there is another landmark mentioned in a report of someone who saw a light in the bushes, near the Taperoo shunting yards. If that is where the current trainstation is located, Gedville rd again seems like a good estimate:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/2654108#
Milongal, from memory there is an aerial photograph that shows the Somerton Beach and the location where SM’s body was found (opposit Ferris Avenue from memory). I checked this photo out long ago, to check what the street lighting was.
Milonga, the aerial photo was from about 1936-37 from memory. It was in the National Library of Australia air photo collection.
It is not uncommon for people with a travelling job, such as sailors, to stay at an aquaintance’s or relatives’ house in between voyages. Sailors may also have stayed at a sailor’s pension.
Now that we have Carl Webb’s name, sailor’s pensions in Adelaide may be worthwile checking out provided there are still records of it. In that context, note that -unless it was staged and planted there- he also had a ticket to Henley Beach in his pocket.
The Webb’s may have had relatives in Adelaide which I think would be important to establish:
– John & Clive, so does it appear that N.A. and Justice Webb may be linked/neighbours to the Vale company? Maybe the Vale company had a spare room at their location and they tipped Carl about it?
On a side note, what happened to Carl’s furniture and household goods? It would have been stored somewhere.
– There was another reference in The Advertiser from 1890 to National Bank clerk Charles James and his brother clerk A.E. Webb. They would have been of the generation of Carl’s father. Note that the case of Charles J. has been determined as a probable suicide (poisoned AND shot) on Henley beach, but like in the case of Carl, there are some indications that it could have been staged as well. In particular the plans Charles J. had for two meetings (one in Melbourne and one with the hotel owner) are not consistent with a suicide. Also note the connection to Melbourne, which may have been a familial one:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26760722
If anyone decides to follow up on this, may I suggest to put any sourced findings in the collective Familysearch platform, so they won’t get lost in the labyrinth of CM messages?
@Calypso: I *think* (based on much more recent history) that “Taperoo Shunting Yards” would refer to freight lines near the Port River (around where you’d find the Osborne Industrial complex (ASC etc) these days – ie River side of Mersey Rd between Solvay Rd and Marmora Tce, or possibly further South where the fuel storage is today (I assumed those yards were more recent)). So I *think* it’s on a different line (possibly even different gauge) to the passenger line servicing Taperoo.
But I can find suggestion that there was a siding near the Taperoo railway station at some stage before 1940s – possibly to service the Silicate Brick Company…..and there is a Silicate Avenue near Ocean View College (Taperoo High) so….
And maybe the reference to Taperoo agrees too. Taperoo only started to describe the suburb in about 1950 – before then it seems to have been Draper (S&M 1950) – although unofficially I guess the area may have used that name earlier.
Short Version: I think the shunting yards were elsewhere – but it’s possible.
I’d like to share a new finding that I’m rather excited about! I noticed it under the second A of GOABAB. I’m afraid it’s another port 🙂
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y33AiqXOlJbeC3IqbkL6aCvEcRyGygDU/view?usp=share_link
I have found some more exciting stuff, still working on showing it in a picture. Coming soon!
Has anyone looked at the first couple of m’s as symbols rather than the letter m. Maybe megawatt?
@em…..if you’re referring to the struck second line and the fourth line as M letters, then megatwatt would be as good a symbol as any other, though a capitol O could have served the same pputpose. However if the first M actually be a W which some TS code experts insist, than perhaps the pair could represent Marshall & Webb, or Webb & Marshall as the case may be.
em:
I believe that those letters are Ws, and that Webb wrote them that way because he’d picked the style up during his school years. On Swinburne’s site, there are several instances of this type of W in or along with photos from around the time he’d attended, including in his very own football picture:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/3584326f-92ad-47fa-a46f-11ce6910a0c9/1/pho009i0003.jpg
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/3f4925a7-6336-4263-b5ad-f26622f75f48/1/swin3f4925a7.png
The W in his signature also has a downward-pointing tail at either end, though the execution is more stylized (as one might expect with cursive):
https://ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/07/image-3.png
I have posted this idea here before, but unfortunately at CM our thoughts seem to get lost to each other pretty quickly…
Steve H and his multiple aliases cannot be relied upon for diddly squat. Just read about this guy’s psychiatric history. Then look at bong head Byron and the Cramer Cretin with his micro…writing.. and stupid Jo with her trash talk about Mr Liabo and the Poontang Brothers. One quickly realises that Nicholas is the only man with
Half an arse in this shitty game. Hats off, my fellow supporter of the Anglo-Australian Crown.
Last week I showed the reference to U1055 on the cryptic note page. This week I showed the reference to Liverpool. There is more where that came from. There are other things I found out that indicate what Webb was up to, and maybe I should just keep the info to myself. I’m very reluctant sharing these publicly on a platform like this now because all I have been getting is a massive amount of abuse.
For some reason my post is being filtered out. So here’s part 1 of 2:
As promised, here are some new observations on the cryptic note page. There probably may be more to come, as I am still studying the page.
My current hypothesis is, that the Rubaiyat booklet was used as a notebook. This is because besides the well-known cryptic note, there are numerous other often tiny writings, scribbles and drawings or imprints thereof on the photo of the page. These become digitally visible when the page is rotated clockwise and the brightness varied. Some of the findings are faint or hard to read, but I do believe they are rather relevant to the case so nonetheless important to point out:
* As discussed before, in the cryptic note itself there is a reference to the surname of “Liabo”.
The Security Service (NSW) kept a file on Henrik Olav Liabo in the period 1942-1943, now accessible at the NAA.
H.O. Liabo was a Norwegian sailor, removed from the U.S. as mala fide seaman, who visited Australia at least in the period 1942-1944.
* As shown before, there is a reference to “U1055”.
There is also a clear tiny encircled reference to “Liverpool”, with the encircling suggesting it concerns a location on a map:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ov-TY3mYsZmDS6qVVL5uiJP5Al5F3y_x/view?usp=share_link
There is another clear but difficult to read encircled word: “New.astl.”, which could read Newcastle. In addition, the “w” in New is similar to that of Carl Webb’s signature:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZqRc9CY2-6iodrtLNT-Hd9URvzdtHSj7/view?usp=share_link
There are numerous lines drawn, which could represent other geographical features. To put it bluntly, it could be a draft map of the Irish Sea.
As others also noted, there are numerous numbers written all along the edge of the paper, which could possibly refer to coordinates or perhaps file numbers:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mTWS-X88nygrz9zUFhnnNUolFCYzsE66/view?usp=share_link
U-1055 was a type VIIC Nazi German submarine that disappeared with 49 crewmembers on board, two weeks before the end of WW2 on 23 April 1945, near the Irish southwest coast while en route to its operational area in the English Channel. It was posted as missing when it failed to return to Norway or signal its position after the cessation of hostilities. It was never seen again.
https://uboat.net/boats/u1055.htm
Can you explain please how you find the word NewAstle on that page? I can’t for the life of me work out how it can be read into the lumps of the parchment. I mean I have a good imagination but we are dealing here with a close up photo of a piece of paper with a piece of glass on top. Not saying you’re wrong – just want to know why you think it’s there.
@Kara/Sandra/Calypso: are we talking about New.stle on Tyne (UK) or NewAstle on Hunter (NSW). Or could it mean something altogether different such as the saying ‘tearing someone (nobody in particular) a new astle?.
The “New .astl.” artefact in particular is noticed best when zoomed out max, especially to about the original size of the page (~4,5 inches). So, zoom out 🙂 If possible, vary brightness to make it better visible. In the files I provided it is marked where the artefact is to be found, located below the A of Bimpanet.
More artefacts coming soon, and to my opinion very, very revealing. I’ll try to prevent an information overload. Will provide an overview file too, maybe that’s clearer.
So here’s part 2:
* There is a reference to “T. Tagai”, rather faint but well readable compared to the background. The “g” is strangely written, but to the far left of the page another cut off word can be noticed that has the “g” written in the same manner, which reads something like “-sang.ni” . Below “T. Tagai”, there is more faint yet unreadable writing. Again below that, the word “Sinha(n)(n).”
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15nTPPwzKhlLfyuDr4gicC-n6-eTyPUUS/view?usp=share_link
Sgt. Torazo Tagai was a Japanese war criminal convicted in 1946 by Australia:
https://ilias.uni-marburg.de/goto.php?target=dcl_3096769&client_id=UNIMR
Sinha is another common surname. Sinha means “lion” or “hero” in Sanskrit.
* There is a reference to “USSsalem”. Behind that, “CA 1398\5”. Above that, the faint cut-off writing “-SEE” and “-USA” with a bold brace and “cul” are shown.
The USS Salem (CA-139) was a heavy cruiser completed for the US Navy shortly after WW2, launched on 25 March 1947 and commissioned on 14 May 1949. She mainly served in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Salem_(CA-139)
Current overview file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WFoPXq9L1ZH4QHAkoD-CV7iYWgjYzwAj/view?usp=share_link
Current photoshop overview file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gyR2ZfrYCIuv5VLhULVUSrZQcjFiJL7m/view?usp=share_link
Separately, these references could certainly be argued as having different meanings, but together they strongly suggest that they were all cases the writer worked on, probably for the Australian Security Service and or Royal Australian Navy (RAN). They are all verifiable and dateable.
My personal opinion is that Carl Webb was the writer. To prevent the book from falling into the wrong hands, and to signal what had transpired, the tiny slip with “Finished” on it was hidden on his body, referring to the book that was disposed of in the hope that it would end up with the proper authorities. Which it did, and probably still is. As mentioned before, there were several indications to his physique that Carl Webb was also long-term involved in diving, so diving could have been one of Carl’s professional tasks within the Navy. HMAS Leeuwin (Dutch for “lioness”) was a former Royal Australian Navy (RAN) shore establishment, located in Fremantle (WA), just 15 minutes driving away from Cottesloe. HMAS Torrens was a RAN base in Largs Bay, Adelaide.
JS – Your guess is as good as mine. But judging by the positions of “Liverpool” and “New.astl.” on the page (see overview files), I believe it could be Newcastle (North Ireland). There are some more very hard to read encircled scribbles, but maybe someone more knowledgeable of the local geography would be better suited to interpret what it says.
Another thing, as far as I know, the Henley beach railway line headed directly towards Largs Bay. The unused Henley Beach railway ticket in his pocket suggests CW was about to go visit (the area of) HMAS Torrens that day.
Just found out that I did not include the picture with the reference to “USSsalem”, so here it is:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qPOfebsCF3DBKq-2rcW7yjjldHMONze5/view?usp=share_link
I don’t know if this is the right thread to discuss other artefacts observed on the cryptic note page, so maybe this would belong on the cipher thread.
I have some more background information involving Carl Webb’s whereabouts, if anyone is still interested in that.
If it were only for the reference to a mr. Liabo in the cryptic note, the possibility would exist that Carl Webb got a job on a Norwegian merchantship, together with sailor H.O. Liabo and the three other surnames mentioned in it.
However, the latest findings of other very specific writings on the cryptic note page of probably the man himself completely change this view and instead seem to point to a job at a higher level, in which the case of H.O. Liabo, as investigated by the Security Service, is just one of several cases.
The Security Service (CA 946 on NAA) was formed in 1941 as part of the Attorney-General’s Department, and most of its staff was drawn from the armed forces. This means that if the case of H.O. Liabo was one of Carl’s, he probably worked for the Security Service, indirectly implying he was army personnel. Considering all references to army vessels, harbors and diving physique it’s logical to suspect he worked for the RAN.
The Security Service also had an office in Newcastle, NSW. So John Sanders, the encircled artefact of “New.astl.” (?) on the note page as you suggest could also refer to this location in NSW. As it seems, there are more encircled areas on the note page that all seem to have writings in them which are not geographical locations, so it is less likely that “New.astl.” is part of a draft map.
Also, the encircled writing of “Liverpool” may refer to Liverpool, NSW as well. During WW2 the Internment Camp in Liverpool was a camp for internees in transit to other states and a holding camp for ‘special internees’, under direct control of the Australian Army Base at Victoria Barracks, Sydney. Among the internees were for instance members of the Australia First Movement. The camp would have been the perfect location to gather information from internees:
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/liverpool_internment_camp_during_world_war_ii
The Security Service was disbanded on 15 December 1945, so for Carl this would probably have ment a personnel reorganisation to another branch.
The former naval base HMAS Leeuwin in Fremantle (WA) became a training facility after WW2, initially for RAN reservists and national servicemen. This may explain why Carl Webb took off all the way to Cottesloe around April 1947: to get a training at the HMAS Leeuwin. One of the tasks of divers in the army is to dismantle mines, for which he had the educational technical background.
I forgot to mention, the reference to the USS Salem and the above it written “SEE USA } cul” (cul is an abbreviation for see you later), implies that Carl was to visit the USA and the USS Salem, probably in the line of an exchange mission between the US and Australian Navy. As the USS Salem was launched on 25 March 1947 and commissioned at 14 May 1949, Carl’s alleged visit must have been in this time period. He even still had a half eaten pack of chewing gum in his pocket, so his visit to the USS Salem was probably very recently.
I asked my friend Mr ChatGPT to think of a poem with the code letters in it and it came up with… I just thought it was quite a good poem that Mr Khayyam might have been proud of.
The Somerton Man by ChatGPT
Wandering in a dreamy night
Making Memories with every Light
With the Beauty of the Stars in Sight
Bringing me to a Peaceful Height
A Sky of Velvet Black and Blue
Breathing in the Morning Dew
Dreaming of a World that’s True
Discovering all the Wonders Due
Memories Linger in my Mind
Love that’s Hard to Leave Behind
In your Eyes, I see the Kind
Inspiration to keep me Blind
Tranquility and Serenity
The Calmness of the Deep Blue Sea
Traveling to Infinity
The Peace that Sets me Free
Stargazing in the Open Air
Taking in the Beauty Everywhere
Seeing the World without a Care
Embracing all its Wonders Rare.
David Morgan: if only you could get your gizmo to try using a simila rhym meter to each alternate line set; just like that which defines the unique sensuality of the first 1859 edition of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. By comparison your Mr. ChatGPT sounds like what it is..surreal synthetic and without any rhyme or reason. Sorry.
Putting this one on here as there are several baccarat related threads, so not sure where to best post….
I think we can make a tangible link between the Webb brothers (Charlie and Roy) and the baccarat scene, via Henry John Stokes “The Baccarat King”, 1882-1945.
https://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/stokes-henry-john-16359
Stokes had a fairly lengthy charge sheet but seems to have evaded the law during his, by all accounts, successful, 1940s baccarat school period. The only lengthy jail term he served was for a botched 1935 conspiracy to rob a bank, in Ballarat. His co-accused was John Mulligan and his accomplices were the Gaveys, Roy Webb’s parents in law. Roy married Ruby Stella Gavey in 1933.
It’s a rather complicated story which also involves two police constables. Mulligan seems to have been supported in his role by the Gaveys (he cites their Mackay Street Prahran address as his own. In the meantime the Gaveys have rented a house in Ballarat very near to the bank. Charles Alsop is also mentioned as being involved in the robbery plans – he was one of the witnesses at Roy and Ruby’s wedding.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224399792?searchTerm=Gavey%20stokes
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11764588?searchTerm=Gavey%20stokes
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204353893?searchTerm=Gavey%20stokes (Gavey misspelt here as Ganley)
I’d like to especially credit Angela, Pat and Misca for their research work on the Gaveys last year and also for noting the conspiracy to rob the Ballarat bank. I’ve only just made the connection between the Gaveys and Stokes, the “Bacarrat King”.
A couple of other points to note:
– Earlier in his career Stokes made money from the operation of two up schools. There was a popular two up school at Sandown Park, Springvale, approached from Virginia Street, adjacent to the Webb bakery.
– Roy Webb lists his occupation as “car driver” on his WWII enlistment form. Could this be a similar role to that of George Henry Newman, who Nick has written about previously?
https://ciphermysteries.com/?s=George+Henry+Newman&submit=Search
– Nick has previously estimated that the nit picker believed to be the Somerton Man by the two Melbourne baccarat players may have worked in 1945. Henry Stokes died of a heart attack in June 1945.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224896549?searchTerm=Henry%20Stokes%20death
Thanks for the info Jo! One theory does not necessarily need to exclude another. Carl Webb may indeed have been the nitkeeper that was recognised, working undercover on a case against some gangsters.
# Jo well done !! There is a definite connection between Carl and the baccarat schools through Roy and I believe there’s a lot more to be uncovered here.
Roy nominating his occupation as “driver” sounds to me like the kind of thing you say when you don’t want to say what you actually do for a living.
Based on the clear connections described in Jo’s post I think it very likely Roy was a bonafide wise guy.
there is mention of a Squizzy” Taylor gang rivalry can that be connected to Prosper in any way. i suspect Carl might have gone into hiding and might have had a hit taken out on him.
Annie Gavey also disappeared but turned out she changed her name – probably to disassociate herself from the gang scene. Could Carl have done the same
http://australiancrimes.com/crimes/henrystokes.html
Another good summary of Henry Stokes’ career…
Note how he avoided police raids and prosecutions during his baccarat years!
Jo: Alsop, as I recall, was the surname of a partner in a Victorian based hairdessing supply company, oilene Suprema at 200 Hindley St. Adelaide in the late 40’s that may have had dealings with Prosper Thomson. Some five years back I looked up Charles Westward Alsop’s WW 2 service and it reveals that he was rather active as an army construction engineer for the duration which included two to three years in the islands. It would be interesting to get yet another (Burch bros) organised mob link to good old Prosper, though it would not necessarily change my firmly held view that Somerton Man’s death was not likely his doing.
John – The Allsop involved here is Charles Edward Allsop, 27 years old in 1924 (b circa 1897) – sorry, should be two Ls in Allsop, typo above. Can you connect him or his family members to the Oilene Suprema business?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4215826
Roy was always going to have had dealings with the melbourne gang especially considered his marriage to the Gaveys and having a gang member as a witness. Baby brother obviously was there for the ride…. I am still pretty sure Brenda was Carl’s
A mob hit is more than likely especially in light of the occurrences directly afterwards
Would be an idea to research the Adelaide underworld but i am guessing that rabbit hole goes way deep with possible police involvement
“He left behind an estate of £15,000 – no small sum, but considerably less than anyone expected. Many wanted to know the whereabouts of the rest of the fortune Stokes had amassed. They never found out”.- i wonder
….jumping Jehoshaphat, seems there were more Charles Alsop’s in and around Melbourne pre 1950s then Charles Webbs and they may have derived from one Charles Alsop grandsire. Les Taylors mate Charles Edward Alsop himself a career criminal, might well have been the Webb/Gavie marriage witness but to connect any of the Webbs with gangsters merely because of Roy’s Ruby being a Gavey is tenuous and unfair. After all, a poet and casual punter who’s in the farter by 7 pm like our Carl, aint likely to have been a baccarat club nit keeper in 1944 right?
all involved in the baccarat scene https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203648337?searchTerm=leslie%20taylor%20taxi
he was the bird
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203648337?searchTerm=leslie%20taylor%20taxi
cacawcacaw
and finally
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248109307?searchTerm=adelaide%20baccarat%20schools
JS: Prosper worked at a company called “Clinical Distributors”, 200 Hindley St in 1947-no phone number. Perhaps prosper shared the business?
@ Em
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1901621
It looks as though the Gaveys and Leslie “Squizzy” Taylor all lived on Mackay Street in Prahran. The Gaveys moved at some stage to 29 Greville Street, Prahran (from Misca, also FamilySearch) which is where Joe Gavey died, in 1951, aged 80. His descendants seem to have followed more respectable paths…(eg grandson, RAAF squadron leader John Ivor Gavey – 1926-2022).
Am I mistaken, or have I taken the bait and jumped onto the quagmire of getting involved in some really old ground. I seem to recall sitting out this predominantly off thread early Melbourne gangland conversation and wondering when relevance would come into play. My only comment this go around would be that Roy Webb was not too backward in coming forward for a crack at the enemy, even as an age exempted married man and, he died for his trouble. Whereas, the average Mebun hood couldn’t give a rat’s arse, and besides in those early days of WW2 when ‘they were needing em not feeding em’ recuiting meant a more thorough screening of volunteers and had Roy been known to police, he would not have passed muster.
IMO the data that comes straight from the horses mouth – Carl Webb – needs to have top priority and worked with if this case is ever going to be revealed publically. The cryptic note page is a massive lead – and not for the poetry. He noted that he planned to see the USA and USS Salem (CA139) on the 24th March. The names of several warcriminals almost forgotten of today are named. It is all presented on a silver platter. How specific does it need to be for it to be taken seriously?
Clive Turner: really mate I wouldn’t have known. We simply called it ‘Clinic Distributors’ without the al tacked on but guess it could go both ways eh?
I would hardly describe Roys connections to gangsters as “tenuous” The man was married to a major mob bosses daughter. He’s in the family for f… sake.
dud: Roy married the woman he loved, a nurse no less; not her family. It happens.
I don’t think that Roy was involved with the Melbourne underworld in that sense , he was the designated driver that’s all. Carl on the hand through Dorothy’s statement hints that the police knew him. Was Carl an informer?
@em
He said he was a car driver like Norman Webb. Were they told you get an easy job in the army if you can drive?
Or,
Since his father-in-law was a gun-toting stick-em-up bank robber did he need the car driver to escape?
Roy must have known he was marrying into a criminal family from newspaper reports – unless he couldn’t read. You could imagine the first time he turned up to the gangster house to take his daughter out “If you touch her I’ll kill you”.
Im afraid you do marry the family Colonel, thats just how it works old son. You sign up for weddings birthdays xmas’s, christenings, you become an uncle to their siblings in fact culturally you find in that era you would begin to call your inlawas mum and dad.
Not to mention the best man at the wedding being a hardcore gangster and well you dont need to be Sherlock Holmes to suggest that it was very likely Roy was in on the game.
For anyone to suggest otherwise may indicate a “tenuous” grip on logic.
@ David & John – the value here wasn’t to simply rake over old ground but rather to raise the issue that the nit picker identification seems more rather than less likely.
The only Webb brother to emerge in the Police Gazette so far is Russell, for not supporting his child to Linda McLuskey.
The last link provided by Em is really useful in terms of timelines – Charlie may have had multiple reasons to leave Melbourne: maintenance and a volatile climate around the baccarat scene potentially being two of them. I think the idea that he may have been a police informant, or at least friendly with them, is quite plausible, especially in view of Dorothy’s divorce deposition.
Harry Stokes appeared to be a man adept at reading his opportunities. His botched bank raid involving the Gaveys seems to be an aberration rather than a way of life, perhaps for both parties. There’s probably more to it than reached the press. The involvement of the two police constables seems like a bit of a stitch up!
The “criminal” connections need to be set in their historical contexts – eg the Gavey family didn’t stay in crime & even in the 1930s-40s had other interests (eg renovating & flipping houses, placing them well ahead of their time!). The popularity of two up in the 1920s can perhaps be seen as part of the long shadow of WWI; the baccarat schools are perhaps part of the WWII hangover – before Australia becomes far more conservative – a working man’s paradise of suburban dreams, locally made cars and white goods. In many ways Charlie seems like a man moving out of his time, as well as a man out of time. I think it’s almost profound how the first locally produced Holden car rolls off the assembly line just as he shrugs off his mortal coil.
There’s a few good insights in this article about gangsters, the suburbs and modernity…
https://adb.anu.edu.au/essay/6
David Morgan: on inlistment, Norm Webb obviously lied about his having been a bus driver, if we’re to accept your better knowledge of the bullshitter’s pre service trade & calling as a car driver for the mob. Like his getaway car driver uncle Roy Webb, whose moll Ruby Gavey musta conspired with the Yakuza to off her old man on the T/B railway just so’s the criminal bitch could get her war widows pension. Thanks for setting things straight my man, always good to have folks who be in the know on hand when we need answers….
Just noticed something a bit kooky!
Look at the photo of: “The personal items found inside a suitcase believed to belong to the mysterious Somerton Man”.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-03/somerton-man-live-blog-top-questions-from-experts/101296556
and the door to 189a Lonsdale Street (former baccarat school entrance – check comments from “I bump my head and article from Em, above):
https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/q0wp7z/anyone_know_the_history_of_this_spooky_door_on/
Do you see the weird pseudo masonic imagery? I don’t know the vintage of the door but will try to check it out…
cue: Twighlight zone music….
Interesting connection of Harry Stokes to 189 Lonsdale Street!
https://neoskosmos.com/en/2019/08/04/dialogue/opinion/history-matters-lonsdale-akropolis-club-bombing-of-1928/
Harold Rolfe North, Snr. Porter at Adelaide Station, in part of his testimony added that on 30th November 1948, in addition to the “Keane” suitcase, another item of property had remained unclaimed but, he didn’t care to elaborate and strangely wasn’t asked to by the bench. From information later gleaned we are given to understand that said item was not a coat or clothing too large for the small case. So as to what it might possibly have been, your guess as good as mine. It is a given that property in the form of motor bikes and bicycles could also be stored subject to an additional chit for redemption. Such cannot be ignored if we choose to factor in mind the Richard Pruszinski Broken Hill/Somerton Beach suitcase conundrum.
thedude747: your insistance that Joe Gavey’s crime activities carried through the family seems to have no basis but discent. Indeed quite the contrary in that many of the post twenties Gaveys through until present times have had very successful careers and been pillars of Melbourne society to boot. I maintain my stance that Roy’s marriage to Ruby was formed along natural selection lines and that it was a warm and loving relationship while it lasted. Suggest you put the question to Mrs. dud and see what she has to offer; my money being on ‘true romance’ London to a brick.
Jo: the collection of suitcase tools were pinned and layed out for press photos on an Adelaide Railway Station cafeteria menu and not what your link might otherwise suggest ie. a black Freemason folder. It may have been Milongal and I that figured this out in response to persistent claims by Clive and Bowes that ‘lodge’ members within Sapol did it for ulterior motives. Sorry.
There is evidence in Trove – should one care to find it – that Prusinzski was working for a fellow in Broken Hill called Hebbard. The Hebbards were Cornish tin miners sent to the Hill and James had managed the Central Mine, living in the residence for some time. His son born 1910 (circa) was something of a black sheep. Regularly taking the train between BH and Adelaide, Hebbard junior took up with local ruffians down south and fancied himself as a bit of a raconteur. He died young but not before he had led several acolytes astray.
It is also possible that the nitkeeper was an undercover job of Carl, if he worked for the RAN/Security Service. The Security Service kept a dossier on “‘Squizzy’ Taylor and others” in 1941, accessible through the NAA (IN 305026). Another one to add to the possible timeline:
~ 1939 worked undercover as “Carl Thompson” in Renmark and met K. Mangnoson.
~ 1941 worked undercover as a nitkeeper in Melbourne in the gangster scene.
~ 1942-1943 worked on the case of H.O. Liabo
~ 1945 worked on the Japanese warcriminal Sgt. T. Tagai case
~ 1945 worked on the U1055/ warcriminal R Meyer case
~ 1947 March went to HMAS Leeuwin in Fremantle to get a training
~ 1948 March 24th went to the USA to visit the USS Salem on a mission as a diver.
It seems likely Pruzinski was linked in some way to the death of Carl Webb and also some crooked local cops. The strange plot of the suitcase on the beach, his uncle Charles in hospital in Melbourne, flying home then claiming poverty payments. His own accidental drowning in a pond. It should have all been in a film script.
[EDIT]
It is also possible that the nitkeeper was an undercover job of Carl, if he worked for the RAN/Security Service. The Security Service kept a dossier on “‘Squizzy’ Taylor and others” in 1941. Another one to add to the possible timeline:
~ 1939 worked undercover as “Carl Thompson” in Renmark and met K. Mangnoson.
~ 1941 worked undercover as a nitkeeper in Melbourne in the gangster scene (NAA IID305026; recorded by Security Service, NSW (NAA CA 946) and Investigation Branch, NSW (NAA CA 904)).
~ 1942-1943 worked on the case of H.O. Liabo (NAA IID 9673049; investigated by Security Service, NSW (NAA CA 946)
~ 1945 worked on the Japanese warcriminal Sgt. T. Tagai case (several NAA files, investigated by several agencies)
~ 1945 worked on the U1055/ warcriminal R Meyer case (several NAA files on Rudolf Meyer, investigated by several agencies)
~ 1947 March went to HMAS Leeuwin in Fremantle to get a training
~ 1948 March 24th went to the USA to visit the USS Salem on a mission as a diver.
@ JS – Thanks Johnno, love a good prosaic explanation! I think the A on the door of 189 Lonsdale may be for Akropolis as in the Akropolis Club, or even Apokalypsi in more recent times… The Adelaide railway station menu was no doubt supplied by a good, enthusiastic Greek waiter….
BTW – 1928 for the family shot and no need to lock in anything – move where the muse and the evidence take you…
Kara: Your James Hebbard was born in Bendigo and got his mine engineering tertiary credentials at the school of engineering there. He moved to Broken Hill in the 1880s with wife Olivia and they had three daughters. Jim got into zinc ore separation management and by 1903 had became BHP mine manager and held the position for thirty years, eventually retiring to his mansion in Fullarton. He passed in 1941 (olive ’47) leaving three married daughters to mourn their loss. I’m therefore at a loss to account for the ruffian raconteur offspring son you mention, as if it has any relationship to Pruszinski or the Somerton Man case at all which is most doubtful.
Jo: I take it that, while not offering direct proof, you still believe it likely that Carl be the unamed 1944/5 nit picker identified by two unamed illegal baccarat players in Melbourne. Seems you were amongst those most impressed by Dorothy Webb’s divorce petition claims, which amongst other things, included Carl retiring at 7pm nightly. How then would it identify with his late evening work at an illegal baccarat den…not that I’m nit picking mate but, are you still standing firm on your position?
Sorry, John! I meant Slebnard, not Hebbard. Or did I mean Bebbard or Bebbard? Or Cornwall or Wales or Ting Tong Lap Dong?
Hope you at least spent an hour googling that you fat headed [generic swear word].
Nicholas, you can suspect me of ruining your site with troll-antics all you like. The fact is that the shite pouring out of that other [generic swear word]’s mouth is what drives people
Away. He’s a Christing puzzling and pissing mad fucker.
Kara: didn’t take but a NY minute to determine your identity and even less for that of your punt kicking side-kick pal Kawa. Mind you I’m no slouch on the keys either; It took all of 57 seconds with one correction in text.
In regards to one contributers constatnt nitpicking posts by #Jo and demanding “direct proof”
What would you like Colonel ? CTV footage of Carl matched with a positive ID through facial recognition, plus a dozen sworn statements and an affidavit plus DNA and fingerprints?
In case you need reminding all this happened 80 odd years ago old boy so I dont think there will ever be “direct proof” and if thats all that is acceptable in order to post here then we may as well shut this site down right now.
Ive got no problem with an individual exploring a particular proposition which clearly has at the very least enough crumbs to warrant following the trail.
Hers some of the reasons #Jo’s research is worthwhile,
FACT. PT was doing business with a Melbourne based , black market car racketeer. He admitted so in open court before a magistrate* See Daphne Page case.
FACT. Carl had some connection to PT * He was in possession of the phone number x3239 which was the number of PTs abode and PT used for his small adds.
FACT. Carls brother closest in age Roy married the daughter of a gangster connected to all things crooked including car rackets and illegal gambling dens. The witness to Roys wedding was also a gangster. Ergo Carl had connections to the underworld through his brother.
FACT. No-one has been able to establish a legitimate reason for Carl being in Adelaide on the day he died. No-one ie friends ,family ,spouse ,colleges appear to have known he was in Adelaide.
FACT TWO yes TWO prominent baccarat players with nothing to gain identified Carl Webb as a nitkeeper from Melbourne who disappeared without explanation. *CARL came from Melbourne.
FACT Carls wife said he was a violent man and gambler known to local cops as specified in a sworn affidavit.
Colonel you have made all kinds of claims about Roys marriage and his connections with the Gavey family none of which you have “direct proof” so do us all a favour , stop throwing stones in a glass house and go make some original recipe. The grown ups are tallking
John Sanders .. the tools were arrayed on a leather folder belonging to a detective involved in the investigation who also happened to be a Mason.
If you want further proof you know where to find it … if you’re brave enough.
Johnno – more, rather than less likely given proximity to Springvale two up school as a young man & later family connections to Stokes. No police gazette mentions found and sorry, strangely the wage book doesn’t seem to have turned up yet!
Pete Bowes: yeah I thought that’s what you’d come up with. I’m not brave, but brave enough to call you on it. By the way everyone and his dog knows that the Leanes and Browns were Freemasons. So mucking what [swear word]?
Jo – I posted a new area of the cryptic note page in the cipher thread -the main topic of this blog- that has a strange symbol on it that I mentioned earlier.
could be an idea to match the year Carl was supposedly working at the company , the year he supposedly was a nit keeper and the year he supposedly would go to bed at 7 am. obviously they were not concurrent so if he was working as an engineer , the 7 am bed time seems reasonable…..but Dorothy also said that he disappeared for long lengths of time. Where did he go?
thedude747: forgive me but I think you may have picked the wrong target for your accusations. I can’t recall ever having “demanded direct proof” from Jo or any other well mannered contributor with an honest opinion to share.
….and as for the rest of your feckless mentored diatribe Zorba which I skimmed over, it being all Greek to me…NUTS is the only comment deemed worthy of such childish trash.
My point being, John Sanders, that someone might believe what you write is gospel, which it isn’t, asamatteroffact you’ve put down more BS on this site than I ever thought possible for one individual.
Afraid you did Colonel in you attempted takedown of #Jo’s posts
John Sanders
Post on February 1,2023 at 1.36pm
“Jo I take it that while not offering DIRECT PROOF , you still believe it likely that Carl be the unnamed 1944/5 nit picker”
the dud: Love the way you twist words, then HIGHLIGHT them as proof of some validation, though I note you left ‘demand’ out of your last FACT supporting post. Reason being that it was of course a lie of which you’re well used… you and the boss must be plotting some well rehearsed turn up the heat initiative, with just six minutes of separation between your away game posts, and so early in the morn too..unheard of for our bonzo or one of his lap dogs for that matter.
…..by the by dud your reference date vis. February 1,2023 at 1.36pm is my response to you not the one to Jo at 1.45pm . You’ll have to learn not to get so carried away.
Jo: probably not so timely in light recent discussion in which your good name was used to advance the cause of a determined smear campaign instigated from afar. but we must carry on and fight thevtye CM good fight regardless right?.
I’m thinking you’re pergaps too young to recall pre TAB when SP betting and ‘two up’ were considered institutional passtimes in Melbourne suburbia and so not a crime. Well attended “schools” could be found anywhere there was a place set up to ‘lay the odds or keep a tote whatever that may be’ (the banjo) and Springvale would have certainly catered to any clown with half a crown to lose…to highlight the family connection farce which you seem to endorse, my antecedants are by no means pure as the driven and yet here I am at seventy five clean as the day I was welped. Still (more or less) untarnished by any such ‘sins of the father’ nonsense that some like your good self be so convinced of.
@ The Dude
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45715785?searchTerm=Prosper%20Thomson%20Henry%20Stokes
Do you know if there any more cases like this one, where Prosper T has accepted and given cash for stolen vehicles (in this 1951 case, a ute)?
Sandy, it may have tooken ya 47 seconds to work out that I am the extremely betitted and bevaged Kara, but I bet it took considerably longer to research the Hebbards.
Maybe not so much gospel, but perhaps worth contemplating. Only our Saviour can demand such obedience and expect us pay for our misteps along life’s weary journey. Think I’ll chance my luck to make any necessary reparation for my sins at a time and place of my choosing. This, as opposed to under a bus as is destined to be your place for atonement, too late for any deals then, Peterb.
Peterbozo: your saying I’ve had CM 36000 hits over a nine month period which by my reckonning must then equate to a round figure tally of 108000 for all three SM forums, and then some, if we include the three other mixed category sites. Wow, I’m happy to own such a remarkable figure which must be close to the mark, you being an accredited numbers man and all. Of course we need also consider its only a small percentage of lets say, around 500,000 in total for Cipher mysteries within that same time span, along with an estimated 50,000 for Gordon’s blog and at the very least 500 for your alternate self serving follow-my-leader oriented blurb. You got anything in mind for a performance award; no matter I’m indebted for the kind attention to detail and your praise for my humble achievement.
…..on re appraisal of the numbers and in consideration of my personal hit count for Tbt averaging 10 a day over the nine month period, I’ve seen fit to elevate the talley to 3,200 of which I’ll lay claim to 2,700. It’s only fair mate.
Anyone but an abulute blithering idiot could recognise the three standout features of the Freemasons symbol ie., Compass set intersected from below by a square rule and the eye of God or letter G in the centre. Simple simon stuff right? but no not to our resident know all Bonzo Bowes it ain’t. He’d been so moved by a past punter’s assertions of masonic symbolism on a back board used to show SM suitcase items that he kept mum and shot the messenger of course. In essence what is revealed on the backing are border lines and a big ‘A’ for Adelaide station with its cross bar hidden by an overlapping Keane tie. Sorry folks but don’t say you hadn’t been warned about imposters in our midst.
Jo: you got it right there mate, you do need a holiday, set up a tent on Pete’s farm up Byron Bay. You could borrow his Beretta pump and take out your Carl Webb syndrome anxieties on vermin straying in from the hills, share his love for cheap rum and get stoned on some of his arthritis pills. If only you had come here with your complaints our admin could have arranged to put you up at the CM ville on Kastellorizo for a month or two. Oh well you know whats best and getting rooted as you suggested at Tbt just now might be just what you need, certainly fixed me up…from memory.
Kara: nice try, but the default commenter mental image remains cross-dressing van driver Colin from Berwick-upon-Tweed, who doesn’t get out much since the incident with the vacuum cleaner and next door’s pet weasel.
Nice work fellas!
@ the Colonel
Thank you for your suggestions. Almost to the standard of your previous work.
“The horror, the horror!”
Nick, stop being so transfauxbic. Colette from Berrick on Twoid, not Colin. I’ve transitioned. Still betitted.
The Masons also murdered John Paul I.
#Jo The cases I am aware of are the Daphne Page case where he duded her in an admitted black market car scam and the case in WA in the late 30s where he’s falsified documents in order to sell a car he didn’t own. I wasn’t aware of the one you located so well done!! Surprised he’s not charged in that one for receiving stolen goods but there is a history with PT of shifting the blame which could well be the case in your example.
I also just re-read the new protocol of the Elder of Cipher and I must say that i have derived – personally – over a decade of pleasure from prodding your rat. I mean that in a very caring and loving way. I’m sure it’s less pleasant at your end, but you have given me great joy by allowing my putrefied swill to explode like a crashing custard truck all over some of the the more genteel parts of the interwebs.
After all i do believe it was I who first made the connection between the Beaumonts and the Somerton Man on this site!
There you go Jo, a good holiday up the Basac in Camodia. My old paraplegic mate ran a cool bar in Pnom Penh back in the 90s called ‘Heart of Darkness’, his Kraut buddy had a similar fine establishment in Saigon the ‘Apocalypse Now’ in which I designed the interior mortuary slabs bench tables, sand bagged entrance and its ceiling fans taking the form of Huey gun ships on a mission. Brings back fond memories of when ‘We were soldiers once, and young’.
John Paul 1 was a closet rag head and had to go. Wasn’t the Masons who got the job done it was Charlie Manson truth be known. I’ve seen his signed copy of the Vatican Papal sanction orders written on S.A. Govt. Railways stationery as proof.
KK: looks like you were right about the Masons. JP1 being still in the Chair of Saint Peter in ’69, more or less compos mentis, when good time Charlie got busted on some petty misdemeanor and was led off in shackles with a smile on his dial.
Carl Webb had a connection to Freemasons
he had family where heavily into Freemasons through the Keane family.
The McMinn family from Pascoe Vale.
Percival McMinn, and his dad Gilbert McMinn who was married to Selina Keane.
Percival Gilbert Mcminn is Carl Webb AKA Somerton Man’s brother-in-law’s first cousin once removed.
https://www.geni.com/path/Carl-Webb-AKA-Somerton-Man+is+related+to+Percival-Mcminn?from=6000000129853684907&path_type=inlaw&to=6000000186763693826
Make of it what you will.
Great lines from the dud and I was deeply moved by his …”when good men do nothing” profundity. A little over done perhaps and his quote could have included “a few good ladies” such omission not being missed by our lady Jo & co. If it be of any interest, back in the seventies we had an Edward Burke with us in Brisbane Street. Steady Eddie was as ‘good a man’ that ever wore a suit and carried a gun; a mighty fine investigator with it too…how would I know being a fair question?
Carl’s card fascination and interest in Bridge appears to have remained throughout his life; this is the last one I can find as late as April 1946.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245404713?searchTerm=bridge%20C.%20WEBB
@poppins,
Bridge usually consists of a group of 4. It is rather unusual that none of the other players recognized him. It was a game usually played by retired people who would be typical newspaper buyers. In tournaments, he would have been a regular and so he would have been known by quite a number of players. But no one recognised him when dead. He must have changed his appearance dramatically after 1946.
JP I was murdered by digitalis administered by a Cardinal in a cup of tea before bed. He died in agony. As his body was taken away the faithful screamed and wept, shouting ‘they have killed you’. A nun discovered him at 4.45am and a team of undertakers was at the Papal apartment by 5.
He was immediately pumped with formaldehyde. Contrary to regular procedure the organs were not removed for embalming.
All of his papers were stolen and much as the nun may have wished to kiss his ring, it too was gonzo.
The warty Cardinal Marcinkus was behind it.
Why do you think Pell was prosecuted? Who accused him? Oh! We don’t know. But guess what? He was reforming the Vatican finances.
Good find Poppins! This is when Charlie is supposed to have left Bromby Street, according to Doff’s deposition; however, he is listed as the informant on his mother’s death certificate in November 1946 and there are also newspaper ads in the same month for the sale of furniture from Bromby Street.
Peter Davidson: Relations between Freemasons and Roman Catholics has been one of historical deep seated mutual distrust and I thought you would have known. Gerald Keane’s family were practising papists and so the chances of them being welcomed at the Springvale lodge, attending their functions or even Webb family gatherings needs to be considered in such terms.
John mate, google ‘Propaganda Due’ if you reckon left footers cannot be masons.
is that a free mason symbol on the gravestone? Ivor Gavey was Ruby Webb’s brother. the Parry’s who she left Brenda with were rotarians and Freemasons
https://billiongraves.com/images?t=med5328925&col=1&cat=149006&rec=6171201
Kara matey, I can just see stand-in Papal envoy Silvio Berlusconi and his Orthodox Shlomo counterpart Ayattollah Khamene’i, being welcomed at Springvale Lodge circa.1936 eh?
@ Em – well spotted! It makes sense that Ivor Gavey was a mason. His son John Ivor Gavey, who died last year, was also a lodge master. The Prahran Masonic Hall, which opened in 1924, is around the corner from the Gavey’s Greville Street home. The Freemasons aged care homes are also in Prahran (and have been since at least the 1930s). The Prahran hall is also very close to where Charlie worked and to the church where he got married. It’s a beautiful old building and one of the last Masonic Halls in inner city Melbourne (the main function centre, Dallas Brooks Hall, was demolished about five years ago).
I’ve just found out that the library & museum are in the area too, so fingers crossed, although it will be a few months before I have free time for a search of minute books or member cards if granted access! I’ve put out a call to someone else with Masonic connections.
The Freemasons were huge in Melbourne, though declining in numbers now. I think it’s due to Australia being a migrant society and traditionally very male dominated – the Masons provided a way of building social capital and mutual support in a society where many people didn’t have generations of family links.
@ David Morgan- they were newspaper bridge challenges, in the Herald newspaper, not in-person games. Charlie also entered a competition the week before Poppins’ April 1946 mention & Captain Noall is still in the game too…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245391390?searchTerm=Club%20bridge%20webb
Jo: I’ll post up my Carl Webb bridge notes as a separate post…
@ Nick – sounds good! The challenges that Poppins & I have found are all in the Herald. The Herald was an afternoon paper, (merged in 1990 with the Sun & now a morning & more bogan publication). The Herald was hugely popular, including with working people & run in the 1930s & 40s by Keith Murdoch – Rupert’s father. The Sun was more working class & the Truth more sensational & gossipy (as suggested by the title).
It’s interesting – I think most of the contemporaneous SM reports seem to have been in the Argus & the Age – more middle class, morning broadsheets. It’s an idea & I’m happy to be corrected (not harangued JS). I’m wondering if perhaps the Melbourne newspapers missed the demographic in terms of people who may have recognised Charlie… I think the popularity of the spy (rather than crime related) theories over the years also reflect looking at the mystery through a middle vs working class lens. I know my own starting point with all of this was “Bromby Street = signals intelligence territory”. I now realise that apart from a few mavericks like Ron Richards, there were few people with working class backgrounds in the intelligence services (a massive own goal & missed opportunity).
Forget my ideas on newspaper allegiances, above, I’ve found Somerton Man Man references in the Herald and Norman McCrance began his columns in the Argus and Age.
I think there is a possibility Carl may have been on the autism spectrum. The pointers being the description of his personality . Clearly he was intelligent and technically proficient but a loner lacking in social skills. Then there’s a strong interest in patterns. Some will, argue about the impartiality of Doffs description but there’s other evidence that suggest there was truth in what she said.
Jo: don’t know so much about being Dome’s pet poodle as you claim, but it’s true I am a loyal old hound and at least I’m not inclined to stray like a bitch on heat.
The following people are the ones I follow in here, they give us links to places they have researched and they do it in a way that they don’t belittle anyone else here..
There are others here that do the same thing, there are also many aliases, all of them a symptom of a sick mind and thinking they could make people sit up and listen.
But no one is reading their ridiculous, fictional, diatribe.
If it’s supposed to make us laugh then it has failed..
It’s just sickening and very boring.
The two below, Sandra and Peterb are spot on, you both said this and were correct:
Sandra
“@John Sanders aka Moriah aka Maria aka dozens of other aliasses,
If you have nothing constructive to say, dont say it because Im totally not interested in reading or replying to your rude, respectless and offensive mental rambling or that of your dozens of other personalities.”
Peterb
“My point being, John Sanders, that someone might believe what you write is gospel, which it isn’t, asamatteroffact you’ve put down more BS on this site than I ever thought possible for one individual.”
Along with thedude747, and Jo, they have put more credible posts in here than the ‘boy’ and it’s ‘mates’.
Keep it up Sandra, Jo, Peterb, thedude747 and any others that keep these topics going, you’re all superstars!!
Deni: sorry that you find me so repulsive my sweet, rest assured you’re not alone, even me old old minx cat cringes when I pass her box. Just can’t help being mean love of my life!
Joe: Norman McCrance [sic) bn. 1891. He strarted his long careet pre WW1 as a sports writer, wrestlng being his early interest before going over to radio as a new age network broadcaster cum political reporter and co authored a couple of books, well before starting his bridge column in The Age. I think Dorothy his missus came from the filthy rich Fox family but, Norm McCance was more into selective poultry breeding and campaigning for animal rights than bantering to her desires. Thought you might like to know the ins and outs of the fellow’s fine make up outside of his boring side-line in on-line contract bridge move ajudication.
Peterb: I guess it’s OK with you if your critical analysis be passed on up the chain of Fraternal command for evaluation pending any need for direct action. I’m sure the GP would have been briefed already in light of the explicit terms of reference and on such a basis it may be deemed prudent to enact certain counter measures on short notice; this despite the Sabath being by rule a lay-day for general order of business.
PB: why put SM (Carl Webb?) on the beach and not just dump him in the donga you ask. Plenty of reasons have been suggested and promtly shit canned in the past mugger. Respect for the greatful dead and desire for discovery according to a script by those connected with his demise might still fit the bill eg., John Bennett who lied on how & when he died, the merry widow Dorothy J. Webb, plus a prick relative in Gerald T. Keane, behind the scenes stager & mechanist.
Clive: what, no CCH mentions in Trove post ’39 ? better you put former CM lady gophers Poppins, Pat and Jo onto it, they’ll find them by the score and more.
@ Johnno- I don’t really like the CCH line of enquiry & associated threads, I find them quite disturbing. You & Pete & co can do your own gophering there (when Pete isn’t being creepy towards Nick & conjectural). I’ve got a bit of car stuff around the Bromby Street area that @ Dude may find interesting but that’s basically it from me until something more substantial turns up.
I certainly would be Keane to hear about anything you have discovered re cars and Bromby st #Jo
whatbecame of looking into CWs military involvement or ack of it? Any records we can delve into?
Pete Bowes is now agreeing with me that in fact Robin Thompson was not a Thomson (maybe). I’ve been saying this the entire time. I want proof that the man’s progeny are related to their grandfather, not just their mother who was renowned for getting knocked up out of wedlock.
The lies they would have us all believe are profound.
This man was not an itinerant wife beater. He was a Soviet spy and his ‘wife’ aka whorenychka was double crossing him.
Hey John Sanders, I’m not former, still hangin’ about lookin for stuff, can’t find much though. Yes indeedy, CCH is mentioned quite a bit after 1939, lots of fundraising events and articles …. err, did I just take the bait, lol. Good on ya.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/3970977
Poppins: yeah, that’s the sort of newsy CCH stuff I recall coming across quite frequently, including items on connections with Sister Kenny’s RAH and RNSH polio wards, plus dreary board of directors meetings. Milongal will surely have similar yarns about Alvington House and the Bickford family ownership pre hand over in 1938 for use a rehab centre for recovering kids up until the 70s.
Blessed are them’s what can hold their counsel t’wixt one moon to the next; In spite of contrary urgings from their alter egos. Good on you Gordon well worth the wait mate!
A quiet bit of wisdom born of exeriience, for Guss, Loner, the Jerker and others who may be so tempted; Comment by all means, just so long as it supports the general theme currently being preached but, don’t try to overstep your guest status to opinionate or offer ideas of your own invention. Y’man don’t like that one bit, so better to sit back, come when called and enjoy the show …like HMV.
How many times you gotta be told Peter? The 24a Jetty Rd. address was part of St. Vincents pub in 1948 and did not become Freeman Chemist until ’49 when SM was long past caring. From memory John Freeman. was living closer to town at Kingswood or Myrtlebank in those days whilst brother Collin was at 31 High St. Glenelg (Vergo S & M) or else above the Freeman owned FSMA chemist at 62 Jetty Rd. between Milton and Chapel Sts. Don’t see how a tail like this can be disregarded but it’s basicially the same yarn I’ve spun several times in the past without having gotten through to you but who gives a rat’s arse.
Johnno, sounds like you need a hankie to mop up the tears old fruit … and simple google enquiries dispute what you say, so who to believe? I recollect Dome wrote that Freeman lived above his shop in ‘48. Perhaps his Highness might deign to reply.
No need for reply from Admin, all that was varified by ‘Fibber’ Feltus in 2018 when he was competing with ‘Schemer’ Abbott on the identity of ROK book keeper Ron Francis, John Freeman or Dr. Doug Hendrickson. Feltus won out in coming up with a better yarn, in so doing the 24a Jetty Rd. address was born and has held sway with easily fooled punters ever since. This despite Gerry telling yet another fib in that he would have important follow up on his recent dealings with the Freemans which was also a lie and a big one. So yes I might appear to be crying over spilt milk Peteb but, the tears belong to a crocodile I reckon.
The ramifications of such an admittance are immense, not that a lad such as thou would realise, so hold tight .. the early led punters are about to lose their bets.
…Feltus would have you blind leading the blind followers that there were only two sons in the Freeman family to pick from, Jack and Collin. Wrong again Gerry, though probably failure in thorough research as opposed to a deliberate porky.
@JS – Freeman Chemists appear at 24a in the ’49 S&M, I can’t find an exact print date for it, but I’d imagine the information in them takes some time to collate (as I think we’ve speculated before). It’s plausible for mine that Freeman had a shop at 24a in late 1948 – but even if he didn’t, does it make much difference? The car may have been parked in Jetty Road for a number of reasons – perhaps he was scoping out his future premises, or perhaps he was in the street for some other reason.
Don’t know if anyone remembers, but there’s a Mrs EE Freeman 2 doors up from Hendrickson on Moseley St – almost exactly halfway between Jetty Rd and 90A…….there’s some discussion on this site around 2018 ( “AT LAST (TAKE #2): “RONALD FRANCIS” WAS CHEMIST JOHN FREEMAN OF 24A JETTY ROAD, GLENELG…”)
Never mind EE unrelated, I think:
Advertiser 9/6/1930
FREEMAN.—On the 7th June, at 47. Moseley-street, Glenelg, Alfred Cornelius, beloved husband of Em. E. Freeman, aged 61 years. Beloved by all.
I have no idea why anyone regards Feltus as a credible source when he openly admits to having lied about every identity in the book because… well… reasons.
Why do you think he hates Mr Mistry so much? Because he had the gumption to name names and then marry the chief suspect’s granddaughter. Gazumped!
Feltus is not credible because he is a self confessed liar. His lies are in print.
Suppose the internet goes down and future generations only have copies of his shitty book available. Oh dear. Prestige? What a traitor to history. This is vintage Adelaide bullshit. Oh so polite. Oh so Protestant. Fuck right off!
Ok, just because I know people like coincidences…..
Alfred Cornelius and Em E appear to be at (or own) 47 Moseley St Glenelg between 1930 and 1948 (and possibly before and after)
But I found this in 1934:
COWAN (nee Reece).—On the 3rd August, at Glenelg Private Hospital, to R. J. and Mrs.Cowan, 47 Moseley street, Glenelg—a daughter.
The Analyst that endorsed Dwyer’s findings was “Robert James Cowan”
Milongal: Crikies mate you’re a tad late in the day for coincidental discovery of the Cowan nee Reece bonny bouncer. I had covered the birth some years ago to no aclaim as expected, then Bob Dylon, or one such imposter exitedly broke the news again very recently. Thanks for the reminder anyway.
Janet, we need to talk, Sanders is not to know
…recapping on your Cornelius post, I recall some really strange goings on at 47 Moseley in the not so roaring forties and you’ll surely recall our long discussion whether the occupier of ’48, a Mrs. E. E. Freeman who happened to be living next to the Hendricksons at 13 Pier St. could be the chemists wife. That aint all by a long shot, for Drs. Sprod and wife Lica nee Delprat, remember Peteb’s Mi5 connection, had been in residen til his passing in ’34, followed by the notoriously influential Dunstans (The Don’s kin). Getting back on subject Alfred Cornelius married Emily Floence in 1890 all fit and proper but, hold your horses, an Emily Florence is also listed as the wife of Llewellyn James Cornelius from 1921. I’m sure we could play this out til the cows come mate, though in respect for Peterb’s known limitations for storing irrelevant details, perhaps we should letter the matter rest. NB: SA on line Geni. indices have stopped allowing first name(s) only trap checks. Bastards.
Sanders, we need to talk, Janet is not to know
YKW: Talk is cheap pal. Janet is inclined to tell whoppers with gay abandon, apart from her last intuitive and valid comment re Feltus. Likewise I’ve been known to guild the odd lily and am not indisposed towards firing off the odd angry shot in Gerry’s direction either.
….should someone pipe up and say that I had Robert Cowan living at 24 Moseley St., and not 47, they would be right but, that error was long after I’d given his correct address, taken from the same 1934 birth notice that milongal posted just now. In fact I’d inadvertently confused Bob with Dr. John Dwyer who lived at No. 24, a hundred metres south towards Somerton and t’other side of the road in 1946 according to his NAA record.
Pb: Byron Devesons poor opinion of chemist Cowan’s non resultant chemical analysis of pathology samples whilst unexpected, was not questioned at all by any of medical witnesses at the ’49 inquest; On the contrary his competence as a chemist was commended by all. Whilst we dumb punters may not condone the fellow’s ghoulishness in trying on a dead man’s dirty socks and underwear, he was merely doing his duty by examining all clothing and additional suitcase items for traces of testable foreign matter ie., traceable grass seeds, sand and stains to identify likely means of transfer, plus some unidentifiable black brush gunk and a rolled slip of paper, neither of which were in his field of expertise. In Bob’s favour is that if there was nothing to find, he delivered in accord with his assignment, doing all that was expected of him in spite of Byron’s suspicion of the man’s motives and your haste to follow suit…as is your wont!
I would have thought that a mysterious powdered substance would have been right up a chemist/@analyst’s alley, but there he was trying on a dead man’s shoes and slippers.
And Doc Dwyer wasn’t too impressed with Cowan, for that you should read his deposition (again?).
Stick to the known facts, Johnno, ok?
@ JS – do you think anyone checked that cheek harness strap for traces of strychnine?
Peteb: The known facts go like this..Dwyer: “Assuming Dr. Cowan found no sign of barbiturates or common poison, I was astounded he found nothing, as I thought he would. I know he is a chemist of considerable experience, and if he did not find any I accept his finding”… Dr. Dwyer goes on to suggest that barbiturates and other poisons might well have decomposed very early after death hence the negative finding…that’s from reading his deposition again as directed. Anything else on your mind, be quick about it son, I’m all booked up.
@Jo – C. Webb the stable hand would have been responsible for that. Crikies hope nothing came of it but seems Chas. and the nag Royal Gem are missing.
Keep reading youth … you give up too early
Jo: subcutaneous injection of strychnine in horses, for reasons best left unsaid are still reported from time to time and so your concern for contamination of harness straps is indeed valid so follow up is recommended. Not so in the case of Aqua Tofana (tincture of arsenic), a lethal concoction of equal notoriety as you’ll undoubtedly be aware, is not well tolerated by our equine friends due to it’s almond like taste and odor, natures warning not to tarry in it’s presence.
Peter Bowes: you sure seem to have got that one right including the grand standing of which none of us be guiltless, plus the constant flow of mostly irrelevant idle chatter. Peace be with you and get yourself some swell time in down Lighthouse Beach; might even swing by to say hello in a month or so.
PB: not only does Derek Abbott hold all the cards as you correctly infer, but he has everybody in his pocket to boot; that is everybody signed up to his facebook follies and whatsmore having the gall to post their comments full of data perloined from the other non aligned ‘Webb’ sites. A pox on them all, what you reckon mate?
Was W9048 the signature of the book cover artist for his work on the Feltus book?
e.g. similar to:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51394230?searchTerm=%22W9048%22
there was a phone number XW9048 JT Stapleton Pty, Newport Beach
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18077855?searchTerm=%22XW9048%22
Sometimes I’ll hear the footpad of a wild dog as it steps oh so quietly around the house, other times I hear the low growl of one of the oversized wild cats as they hunt the fat bush rats who live amongst the house’s foundations, those that have escaped the attentions of the overlarge python who sun bakes on the roof at midday.
But now there is a new and more deadly threat, one that needs a doubling of protective devices around the property… more alarms, more guard dogs .. a hotline to the local police station, a doubling of the private security patrol ..
My wife has been hustled off to a secured facility, my armoury has been checked, oiled and prepared … I am ready.
Because sources have informed me that Gordon Cramer intends to visit me and explain his theory of micro-writing.
All I can say, Gordo old son, is bring it on, I’ll be ready.
I think Feltus was asked about the W9048 and responded that it was just a random sequence representing what phone numbers at the time looke like
BTW I think Pete’s mate – can’t remember his name, but pretty sure features in Thomas the Tank Engine – was convinced there was microcode on the W9048.
People don’t believe how huge those “scrub” pythons can grow and how they have adapted to living in and around human habitations even in semi built up areas. I have a sepia photos of one enormous specimen taken in 1942 at Coraki NSW and I’m thinking that it would have not the slightest hesitation in ambushing a pet or a child playing around in the garden for instance; someone like little William Turrell.
Julian: W9048 is likely to represent an Adelaide district police file number, ie., W for western suburbs (precinct), 90 is the case/incident number and 48 the year of registration. So nothing to do with phone numbers as Gerry explained.
Killed one about 10 foot long yesterday with a long-handled shovel when it surprised me in the garden, the f.cker had a very thick skin and a small head and after delivering about 20 shots I retired panting only to watch the thing bleed out and slide away towards the water tank where no doubt it will eventually expire and stink the joint out for a couple of weeks.
@PB – got to be careful when there’s snakes lurking about (sorry if that’s the point you were making – it was too subtle for me if it was in that case).
Ran over one in the Rover on a sealed rural road with only it’s body visible, and when I went back it was gone. Speaking of “the water tank”, would someone on a mission be able to utilise same to scope the property, get a aimed shot off and decamp the area without being spotted from neighbouring farms.
Sharon….just thought to remind that re Jerry Somerton’s passing out parade on 1 December 1948, representavies. of four prominant Adelaide racing families had were present to witness procedings; Col. Arthur James Lee MC2, 9 Wilkinson Ave., Somerton, Neil Angus Day 3 Alma St. (or 15 Nile St.) Glenelg, Horace James Patching 88 the Broadway, Somerton and Lt. Col. Reginald Nevil Bickford, ex 17 Tarlton Street, Somerton (?).. NB. Arthur Lee Snr. DCM was former top hoop and retired Clerk of the Course, S.A. Jockey Club. Dr. Reg Bickford was Chairman of the Board of Directors at Alvington Crippled Childrens Home and benfefactor, following his father’s passing just the week before SM’s own, on 22 November ’48 The aforementioned messrs. Lee, Patching and Day had been at the death scene prior to arrival of police, but none had felt the need to stick around and give statements, nor did any of their names come up during the subsequent Safcol investigations. Hope this helps with your doping theory.inquiries.
@ Pat, @ Poppins, @ Jo:
I contacted a researcher who has found a Dorothy Robertson registered at Fyansford School. I’m guessing this would be while she was very young and still living in Cundare North before moving to Geelong.
A list of the pupils at Fyansford appears to be available for a fee (probably between $20-40 or so, I’m guessing). If you think it’s worthwhile to obtain the pupil register for the school, let me know and I can either forward the researcher’s contact info to you or think about paying the fee myself. (I live in the U.S., so not sure how $ conversion rates come into the picture.) Fyansford pics don’t seem to come up on PictureVictoria.com, so not sure it’s worth it to pay the fee anyway.
Perhaps one or all of you have come across the info above and it’s old news, but I thought it was interesting.
Hi Nick Pelling,
Just wondering why my last post wasn’t put in with the “On the trail of Dorothy” posts. Seems as tho’ that’s where it belongs, or is that section now defunct? The “Tamam Shud/Somerton Man” category seems a little too broad to me and consists of older posts that pre-date the “On the trail of Dorothy” ones. Just my opinion, tho,’ for what it’s worth . . .
@AT,
“The whole Dorothy thing seems like another red herring to me to be honest.”
Those be the words of Em (Anna), or maybe Mary Spencer and that was only a month after the Carl Webb, imposter shananigans took over from Somerton Man. I reckon that’s a fair crack o’ the whip, don’t you agree?.
@ Poppins:
Wanted to catch you before you head over to PROV to tell you I might be able to save you the trip.
I’ve emailed someone who is familiar with the history of Fyansford Primary and is writing a book about it. I’ve also contacted Geelong Library which has 2 or 3 books on the subject— one of which is entitled, “Fyansford State School Rolls” (see books 2 and 3 in the link below).
Am hoping that rather than having to make a trip to Geelong Library, the librarian there can simply have a look at one or both books and tell us whether D. is listed and/or pictured in them. I included D’s d-o-b, parents’ names, father’s occupation, and places lived, so there should be no doubt about which Dorothy we’re looking for.
Am a little worried that the Fyansford School record I was told about may refer to the listing you’ve already found for D. at Geelong State School. It appears that the 2 schools might have been connected briefly in the late 1920s, tho’ I’m not certain of this. I would hate to have you make the trek to PROV only to be shown the exact same record you’ve already uncovered!
If I don’t hear soon from the people I’ve emailed, perhaps a trip to Geelong Library might prove more fruitful than PROV? Unless it’s way out of your way. (I live in the U.S., so not terribly sure of distances.) If a trip to the library is convenient for you, then clicking on the titles in the link below, then on “Availability by location” takes you to their call #s and the collection they can be found in. They’re all in the Geelong Heritage Centre on the 3rd floor of the library, I believe. Hopefully, however, the librarian or soon-to-be-author comes thru for us, thus saving you from having to contemplate running all over Victoria!
https://catalogue.grlc.vic.gov.au/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/ENQ/WPAC/ALLENQ?ENTRY_NAME=BS&ENTRY_TYPE=K&SORTS=SQL_REL_GEN&ENTRY=fyansford+school
@ Poppins, @ Pat:
Correction: Geelong Library emailed me again with a second pupil register for Fyansford Primary which says there was a Dorothy Robertson who attended, but she was born in 1914.
The researcher at archivalaccessvictoria.com who told me that “our” D. was at that school either must not have read the email I sent him which included ALL of D’s vital statistics, or he didn’t have access to that school’s pupil registers.
I wonder if these ‘Keane Trunks’ could have had some of the other Keane”s possessions, haha. What a bloody coincidence! 29 Nov 1948.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129888870
@ Poppins,
Do you think this holding at PROV might contain a photo of D at S-W Primary?
Also, any idea what “HMSO” stands for?
https://imgur.com/a/Nl9S11r
@AT a girl, but getting back to reality may not align with the Dorothy search team agenda…As for HMSO, one on line definition being a government intrumentality which stands for His Majesty’s Stationary Office.
…or more likely Stationery; it’s taken for granted that Gov’t offices and officers be mostly stationary!
The ciphers of the Somerton Man are complimented by the ciphers in the Black Dahlia Avenger Cards and Letters, exposing George Hodel as a subversive Nuclear Spy working for the Russians, namely the Rosenbergs, and more than likely communicating with Herbert Osborn Yardley in a few of his letters.
http://www.facebook.com/GeorgeHodelNuclearSpy
The evidence is gathered on this site page which details a few decades of their affairs together beginning with the killings that took place in Chicago and areas nearby, and continuing through until the Somerton Man’s death and the cipher found with the phrase TAMUM SHUD, meaning The End in Persian.
In Hebrew it is translated to “Innocuous Robbery” or “Complete Robbery”.
There is some really revealing evidence there including the identification of the man’s name as “SIMPSON”, working for a company that was producing parts for the British Nuclear and Hydrogen Bomb Programs.
He was tasked with the delivery of files, was robbed, and poisoned by Hodel, who was travelling at the time to the Philippines via his flights to Australia.
It was not easy to crack the ciphers but my worksheets are there detailing the mass of information behind their facades.
This included the targeting and assassination of Alan Turing during the affairs that were engaged with the instructions in the cards and letters from Hodel’s affairs.
Yardley and company wanted to make sure that nobody was able to find their keys.
Additional information about Yardley’s involvement can be found here: http://www.facebook.com/LindberghKidnapping
His traits were used to identify the person that was collecting the Ransom Money, and his ciphers detail the inclusion of a team of Russians that were engaged in roles as spies during that era of affairs, instructing Hodel in the abductions and murders of a number of people afterwards.
Enjoy !
@BREAKER David Morgan has his own take on the code. There is an ancient Hebrew cipher well known to codebreakers: see the Cicada YouTube videos particularly Simon Whistler’s “Decoding the Unknown” channel.
The behaviour of Hodel’s son linking all crimes to his dad sounds familiar…where have we heard that before…
GH seems to have had children with serious problems.
Curio,
My one idea was the RoK self-defined the code itself.
https://imgur.com/gallery/HW1dJqQ
interpreting underlining and strikeout in Carl’s text with some up-and-down snake-like way to read the text.
I could never get it to make sense but it was a reasonable attempt at a solution.
Sometimes someone else sees the pattern from such an attempt.
I may have got to a rule but not the answer.
This is clearly an ashtray with a cog and inner spokes design. Potentially even some design around the edge that points to the actual event.
https://imgur.com/gallery/AzRtR1F
Why did the taxidermist think dancer not cyclist? I mean a 40-year-old dancer?
So where was Carl’s bicycle – did he sell it days before to pay for his final journey to Adelaide?
I have put this here as a place holder as Trove is down to see whether Carl attended this event and was a runner up – say 5th.
The names could be checked and perhaps Mr Carl Cottesloe was present.
03 Aug 1948 – CYCLING – Trove
National Library of Australia
https://trove.nla.gov.au › newspaper › article
Cite · A large crowd was in attendance · to watch the finish of the senior · 65 miles road race conducted by · the Eastern Goldfields Cycle Club · last Sunday …
How about Clark and Webb selling public address systems 1948 and running a competition for people to describe how it works to get money off. Very Carl Webb in my mind at 251 Hannan st,.
If he had been selling sirens at Red Point. Who would Clark be in this partnership?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95703930?searchTerm=%22CLARK%20WEBB.%20251%20HANNAN%20ST%22
In 1949 Clark and Webb seem to disappear and are replaced by Perc Webb who now sells gramophone records, radio controlled stuff and fixes radios.
They are part of the Goldfields Aero Club which might be another fit with the Goldfields cycle club for Carl.
Perc seems to be involved in the local am dram where e is responsible for background music.
He goes around the streets with his mobile sound system advertising events.
In 1950 he advertises as Perc Webb Late Clark and Webb – who had disappeared Autumn 1948.
Perc himself only seems to survive to 1950 as a business unless h moves..
David Morgan .. possibility the rule or pattern of the code is the deliberate placing of the letter A in the 7th position of every line of over seven letters. Another might be the camouflaging same by use of spaces a between the letters in each line.
Was this court case the end of Percy Webb’s business selling radios, gramophone records and mobile broadcast systems. Us older folks may remember the vans going around when they shut off the water saying “catch water”.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/256948556?searchTerm=%22percy%20webb%22
But hey Vactric electrical appliances Ltd MD was JR Coomber. One amazing coincidence. JR Coomber taking Percy Webb to court over selling electrical appliances. That has to be one big coincidence, surely?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74633373?searchTerm=%22vactric%20electrical%20appliances%22
Frank Hambledon was taking over in 1947.
James Renton Coomber marrying his young secretary Marjorie Hermann. a very Dorothy-esque looking woman.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129895292?searchTerm=%22vactric%20electrical%20appliances%22
Marjorie gained a first
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74628562?searchTerm=%22Miss%20Marjorie%20Hermann%22
A woman listening intelligently surely not…[joking]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/266237921?searchTerm=%22Marjorie%20Coomber%22
JR Coomber doesn’t like the commies
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257023866?searchTerm=%22j.r.%20Coomber%22
He wants a blacklist.
@DM: Puts one in mind of Lewis & Clark who traded a bellows gun for Indian land along the Missouri River in 1804; Same level of relevance to Somerton Man too.
Another person missing named Clark.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95623795?searchTerm=%22clark%22%2C%20%22kalgoorie%22
so both Clark and Webb are ‘late’ of Kalgoorie and their radio repair shop and Percy takes over in 1948 calling himself Perc Webb. I wasn’t sure which Percy Webb he is on NAA.
a possible Clark and Webb playing tennis in 1934 In Mildura, Vic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265815736?searchTerm=%22clark%20and%20webb%22
Is it possible they were Swinburne college kids who played together and started a shop together.
One Vactric company invention was some poly-device that you could use in the kitchen, polish furniture and your car. It sounds like a drill used as a food mixer, and polisher. The vactric poly-device never seems to arrive in the shops. Perhaps that was why they were in court with Clark and Webb (Percy). Potentially a red point drill in a box.
@Js,
It seemed pertinent – Clarke and Webb both/one shuffles off their mortal coil and then Percy takes over late 1948. Then Percy gets shut down by JC Coomber (possibly) in court. It is the similarity of the sound system of Percy used at events and the sirens of Red Point tools – probably both relying on cardboard toilet rolls just like those expensive Bose sound systems. Then a Clarke and Webb playing tennis together in Mildura in the 1930s. Percy’s involvement in Amateur drama. Coomber’s vacuum cleaner company even created promo playing cards for Bridge. So many nice coincidences.
All seem to evaporate into the mist. Whereas Coomber goes from strength to strength. Even company mentions in Hansard.
I thought perhaps Carl and Clarkey had been engineering pals in Swinburne and played tennis together.
@DM: Yes I see the connection now. Brings to mind brothers James and George Phillips, one a wireless engineer, t’other a radio distributor, both of Somerton Beach 30s & 40s, first aforesaid dead in 1943 (auto wreck), second gone like the wnd without a trace 1948. Only things of likely interest to the SM case other than their beachside abodes set within a short hslf head spitting of ‘X marks the spot’, being that James sported SM’s cross over toes while his brother never earned a coveted Trove guernsey or any SA Geni. mention and appears to have remained single. Can’t find mention of either sib attending Swinburne which is a bummer.
@DM: finally caught up with your Percy Webb. Initially mistaken him for namesake who died innauto wreck regional Victoria like my James Phillips from just yesterday only a year before. Nothing much to know but: Percival Edward Webb bn. GB 1903, telephone engineer, wife Caroline, living at Bunbury on enlistment in 1942 though may have failed medical, no photo or WW2 service history on NAA file and thats all she said.
More on the links to cycling and Carl Webb and the Somerton Man
https://imgur.com/gallery/DssAOF7
@DM,
You’re about half right mate; based on an abundance of trove cycling links, though nothing much to do with Carl Webb of Monbulk or Somerton Man with bulging calf muscles and six months dead; so says Paul Lawson thirty years after the event.
@JS
I was wondering whether Percy was Carl’s alter ego in Bunbury. He appears here during WW2:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252957279?searchTerm=%22percy%20webb%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252922805?searchTerm=%22percy%20webb%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252958353?searchTerm=%22percy%20webb%22
Percy’s also not in the army like Carl since he is installing/operating the PA/sound system in Bunbury in 1942/3. Effectively Percy was the DJ which would be a good fit with the blond fun-loving Carl. But Feb 1943 Percy’s dad died. I guess that was the Webb part of Clarke and Webb and perhaps Clarke followed close to 1948 with Percy taking over.
One other Percy Joseph Webb born 1905 plot was a soldier, POW wife was DJ Webb in 1995.
WEBB PERCY JOSEPH : Service Number – WX6497 : Date of birth – 29 Jan 1905 : Place of birth – FORRESTGATE ENG : Place of enlistment – CLAREMONT WA : Next of Kin – WEBB S
https://imgur.com/gallery/PwTsgEm
One file note said they had the wrong picture. He was also single in 1940. Yet wife DJ in 1995. Interesting case of court martial then POW and still in hospital until 1947. discharged Melbourne. He died and was cremated 1974. She was asking about his medals 1995. He must have married DJ between 1947 and 1974.
Sad that having got Percy’s medals 1996? they didn’t think to update him on
https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/1350640
His details are on NAA and his court martial in newspapers. He was a person who actually wanted to go into action and he was cross they didn’t send him with the other people he knew. He was demoted to private even though he was commended as a good soldier.
Then he was a POW and kept in hospital until 1947 – so he either had serious physical or mental health issues. My best friend in school his dad was like Percy a POW who spent his life in and out of hospital with MH issues until he killed himself. When I visited I saw him hide in his greenhouse. He was even afraid of small children. My grandfather ditto who died in an old asylum. He had been physically violent to my mother after the war which caused serious MH issues in her.
School should teach some of the implications of war to teenagers.
@ Nick Pelling
Just to let you know sometimes posting something does not go, the usual “your post waits moderation” not coming up. However, when I try posting it again, a message comes up saying you are posting something duplicate, which is strange. Just a technical issue I wanted to bring to your attention. In any case, hope this note itself goes through as a test, so if it does, I will post something that did not go through yesterday (by the way sorry for that long post, I was not sure whether to delete anything in the session with ChatGPT, even though at times repeated, given it was a reporting of a session I had to clarify that matter).
So, here goes this test! (you can choose not to post this note, if it goes through since I wanted simply to bring the technical issue to your attention).
I am sure most or all of you have seen this official SAPOL page for the Somerton Man case https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/finding-information/discover-our-collection/stories-from-the-archive/but-what-poison-mystery-of-the-somerton-man
What seems strange is that it was updated on Sept. 7, 2022, yet there is nothing mentioned there about the exhumation (or its results) or even about the July 2022 press release by the unofficial team about CW being TSM. Yet, it discusses records in sufficient detail as to saying what is or what not available publicly. It uses a first person pronoun, yet does not note who the report’s author is.
I wonder, given its update date being Sept. 2002, this was supposed to be considered as SAPOL’s official statement for which folks have been waiting all this time, meaning that SAPOL had decided by then to just leave things as they are, mystery continuing, than wishing to make any further statement. So, perhaps we are waiting for an answer from SAPOL that is not planned to be made any ways, since that page basically has not even considered it important to note the fact of exhumation or the CW identity proposal. Just a thought, in case anyone cares to respond.
@Pat, Poppins, David Morgan, John Sanders, Furphy, Nick Pelling
Given your silence on the question I had asked about the identity of that “Charles Webb” working for Raycophone in relation to CW, I am inclined to proceed assuming that you or others never fully settled that matter, and/or are not interested in pursuing it for some reason, and therefore have not proven or disproven that that Charles Webb could be Carl Webb (unless I missed someone doing so, and you do not wish to remind me of it, given it is taken for granted the question has been already settled). It seems odd how such an important question, even just to be proven irrelevant, could be ignored or not further discussed even while lots of other topics are being pursued now that seem to be of less immediately visible relevance to the case.
@behrooz,
NP isn’t doing anything to prevent your posts over other people’s. The system acts in the same way to all people, duplicates included. We all learn to live with or live to learn with.
I doubt any of us can have priority moderation unless we send a cheque (check) or perhaps even an attractive Czech in the post.
@DM: good info on your Christ Scientist P. J. Webb who ended up on the Thai Burma Rwy with Roy Webb 42/45, consequence of which he lost left leg below the knee and was paralysed to some degree (palsy). I wonder if Abbott’s FB team had occasion to include Percy’s cheese’n kisses Dorothy from Carlton as a candidate for SM imposter Charlie’s Doff.
@DM,
Percy’s beloved Dorothy Joyce bn. 1920 be one more of many Doffs to miss the cut.
@DM,
Percy’s beloved Dorothy Joyce bn. 1920 be just one of many Doffs to miss the cut.
One also SHUDers to think that you done passed up on a Gould League badge opportunity. This by overlooking any mention of Bunbury Victory Club’s president Ron Francis (?) TAMAN’s role in the shindig of Feb. ’43 which included piped music by public address systems man Percival E. Webb (no relation to Jerry Somerton of course).
Additionally re your comment vis. “Schools should teach some of the implications of war to teenagers” be somewhat misconstrued and out of context to my mind.
Simple sulution being; that the teenagers you speak of should not be sent off to fight wars caused by grown ups. Reckon that might also prevent hostilities getting out of hand amongst feuding elders of all nations.
This is a match to Russell which again I can’t find in searching:
https://imgur.com/gallery/7bP1Fkd
This was the match to Roy everyone agrees with:
https://imgur.com/gallery/57XUjZN
This is the match to Roy people won’t agree with as he died 1943.
https://imgur.com/gallery/dO2M1qO
DM: right you are with caption three, not because one (maybe both) died in 1943, but mainly due to lack of facial features compatabilty between them in any way shape or form.
@Behrooz, I can’t prove it at this point, but hey, I’d go with the Charles Webb that David Morgan found, Charles Daniel Webb.
In 1930 we had the news article “Mr C Webb of the bakery fell, and again injuring his leg.”
And we have the article dated June 1931: “Mr Webb, one of the leading experts of this firm”- and the firm only started in 1929. Below is a clip from electoral rolls for the Borthwick family and the Webbs, not too far from Annandale.
https://imgur.com/a/yrLv9F2
Charles D Webb – results in engineering trades drawing and fitting and machining 1923. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245891502?searchTerm=technical%20charles%20d%20webb
@Poppins,
Yes it was some wishful thinking on my part that CDW was CW. It would all fall into place with theatre, engineering, sound systems. We might even find CDW in the Aussie film world. I think there was a table tennis film made with their rayco stereo system to show the “plop, plop..left to right “plop plop” as the table tennis ball bounced on the table”. He might be in it.
But I wish someone would find out whether Carl was in some cycling competitions. My guess is he was and tough uphill events (pedal pushing). In 1947/48 he may have an assumed name but people often referred back to earlier experience so perhaps Charles Swinburne or Richard Redpoint. That was always my argument with the Isdal Woman plot is you can’t just make names up on the spur of the moment. You look around and borrow off the wall like Mrs Clockenhousen or you remember teachers or schoolfriend Betty Bestmate.
@ Poppins (and David Morgan)
Thanks much for relaying DM’s earlier note about that CW being CDW. Poppins, your electoral list findings are very helpful and I think establish the high likelihood the point DM suggested that he was not our CW, but a CDW. While I won’t 100 lay that possibility aside, I am inclined also to think he was not CW. Yesterday, I came to a similar conclusion about that not being CW based on the other point you mentioned about our CW being injured around that time, so crossed that other CW off my narrative for now. As always, you are most precisely and reliably helpful.
@Behrooz,
I found the 99.9% solution to the Isdal woman.
https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/338690-the-umbrella-parade-in-bergen-norway-on-the-15th-november-1970/?fbclid=IwAR3gorIaPzjmoFs779YNkNcXB8QV6P0yV51QCgm0jg9-VnfZigrHsgTwGj0
But the elusive 0.01% crept in. I found her alive in 1972. Linda Ziemann found her in 1977. Then housing records.
But yet I still can’t accept it – just like JS can’t accept SM=CW.
So we all have belief and trust issues.
@Bahrooz: both Poppins’ CDW of Sydney,1902/1961 and David Morgan’s CDJW of Adelaide, born GB 1891 & covered in tatoos (5′ 2″) are thus ruled out of contention for being Somerton Man. The original Abbott Facebook imposter CW of Melbourne would be a better choice than either though sadly he and SM are not a good match for mine. Sorry.
@DavidMorgan – when you said “The behaviour of Hodel’s son linking all crimes to his dad sounds familiar…where have we heard that before…
GH seems to have had children with serious problems.”
What does that have to do with the ciphers that I posted links to?
Nothing…..it is an easily debunked theory that does not fulfill the requirement for a solve in a cipher and reveals little from the Dahlia Avenger ciphers.
But what I have done is not only provided a logical decryption of the text of the Tamam Shud cipher, but also identified a motive for his death as a bagman in a role he was employed as a part of a nuclear spying ring that Hodel was managing.
I provided links to his roles, AND the exposure of the roles that Herbert Osborn Yardley had maintained as a subversive. I have been quite thorough in the presentation of this evidence on the links.
I can tell you didn’t even consider offering yourself the chance to see new information surrounded by a flood of your research, of which seems quite circumstantial.
Can you provide a single page link for any of your research in the ciphers of the Somerton Man, the Tamam Shud, or any other encrypted “Cipher Mystery” that might show some progress in identifying the man or the person(s) that killed him?
I would love to see your work in decoding it.
@Breaker
I have spent endless hours with Pi.AI, MS.Copilot, Claude.ai, … you name it with AI and I’ve tried it to solve the SM code.
I started with the concept that the RoK itself defined the way to solve the code. I’ve repeated that argument twice and on medium so I don’t want to rehash old ground.
I’ve been looking for the last few days at the Index of Coincidence. I wanted to find a way to say it was a code and not just initial letters of poems. I have spent hours at 3am on the Index of Coincidence. But the moving finger whatever moves on.. If I could have found ‘a rule’ that I believed in I would have got AI to write the code so a user to input text and get the IoC value to know whether random, normal text or code. But ‘Incy Wincy Spider’ upset the best laid plans of computer mice and men.
Plus I am ill. So my physical and mental energy is limited and thought processes somewhat random. If I took the fake morphine I think I would be saying @Behrooz was really Prof Abbott.
Sapol media tentatively affirms exhumed body isn’t that of Carl Webb and so SM remains known but to God; the long awaited news courtesy of insider Peter Bowes at tbt. Whether to believe or not, the ‘Sine die’ adjournment verdict stands and Carl Webb FB supporters can be comforted in knowledge that “we the few” will be left to clean up the awful mess they’ve left behind. Thanks ladies!
It’s all in the algebra .. something you cannot deny
@Breaker
Just for you.
https://medium.com/@binreminded/the-index-of-coincidence-and-the-somerton-man-code-eb0fd53deee9
Keane Punters & muggers
just for yous’all.
A lead came into play today to bolster recent efforts for to get a better handle on my not so popular SM candidate G for George (?) Phillips of Somerton, the trail having gone cold following closure of the radio shack he ran with his brother in Adelaide from 1940 to ’42. I’ve just hit on a George Ambrose Phillips (no not the cobbler of Corowa), who was a marine radio techician working out of Sydney, he having married an army nursing sister from S.A. who quit work not long after the nuptuals. That was late ’43 and since then not a word from either ANYWHERES As
a possible clincher for ID could be in that T.V. O’Rourke who sold SM his razor & strop was but a rather close shave from the big AWA tower which once dominated Sydney’s skyline.
Before hooking up with George in Adelaide, Mary was Lt. Richardson and served on the hospital ship MV Wanganella caring for war wounded being transfererd to Melbourne. After her mums passing Mais nominated Sister P. WEBB of Marion as NOK until George Phillips came a courting. Stands to reason he was the Wangella’s AWA appointed radio shack OIC., a reminder that George’s dad Doug had been S.A. Shipowners Assoc. president prior to his death in 1938. A bit of a glitch lies in the fact that in 1986 someone applied for issue of WW2 medals for George Ambrose Phillips bn. Melbourne 1909 which needs to be sorted out before we can progress. Who knows what gives there, probably an honest mistake, anyhow I’m but your humble informant.
GP of Anzac Highway?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/34686566?searchTerm=%22george%20phillips%22
or sex offender:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74646487?searchTerm=%22george%20phillips%22
Did he turn up on the 2nd Dec 1948?
or bookmaker:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74449856?searchTerm=%22george%20phillips%22
Presumably, GP should appear on NAA and needs to have a date of birth from around 1900 to 1909 to match the age of the body. He can’t be another objector/engineer like CW surely?
David Morgan,
Haven’t gotten to the bottom of my new Charles Webb, bookbinder of Marion Rd.
Marion apart from his being close to George Phillip’s new wife Mary through a Sister P. Webb (Priscilla?) as per NAA NOK pre marriage file note dated 1942. All I know for sure is that he was a bookbinder, not bookmaker, ala George Phillips of Anzac Hwy Tel. X2827, who fortunately has nought to do with my nominee George of Somerton. Chas. (S & McD) can be found interred alongside Prisciilla (Mynie) at St. Jude’s graveyard, Brighton circa. 1950s. So as to avoid any confusion I think we can put all this tom foolery to bed, unless an odds expert would like to take mere mention of Charles Webb as a sure sign of need for follow up. Over to you mugger.
JHC: Thanks to you for small mercies, with some due dilligrnce on my own part too. I’ve just located George Phillip’s wife Mary nee Richardson safely at rest in Brighton not far from where she was born and even closer to X marks the spot at Somerton. Now I’m out to prove that she and George had likely been separated since 1948, he being conspicously absent from St. Judes cemetery, that be close to his own last known place of abode Bickford Tce. and but a further fifty metres to X marks the spot. I wonder whether it be likely that the last three letters of the code are in fact G A P standing for George Ambrose Phillips and not G A B at all. Doesn’t take too much temptation at all to alter the last B letter to P which even GC might agree, besring in mind thst his own terminal flourished R be invalid ….Easter tidings to CM punters and God bless those who choose the rightious path towards their Somerton Man goals.
David Morgan,
Needless to say there be plenty of Richardsons and Webbs enjoying their well earned eternal rest at St. Judes C of E cemetery including a Charles Webb who, in common with your AI generated Tour de France medalist, has no commonality to Somerton Man. Thankfully Bahrooz seems to be on to your lurk, so If that be true I suggest you take a break, as I did, stick with your therapy, as I didn’t, and pray for a miracle cure as I’m now doing, if somewhat belatedly.
John Sanders writes that SAPOL media ‘tentatively affirms’ the exhumed body is not that of Carl Webb and nobody makes a comment, not even David Morgan.
Maybe it’s because what JS is really saying is that SAPOL tentatively expressed a strong belief that the exhumed body is not that of Carl Webb ..
Sapol could have gone the last mile and have been done with what little doubt remains re Somerton Man’s true identity…Bit of news for Des Bray if he’s still Keane, be that we might with luck, get him a few unshopped pics from the family album, perhaps even some of that DNA stuff. Sadly candidate’s wife and son are gone though Yvonne be out there somewheres and hopfully still in fair nick.
@ PB, Sanders et al. – insider tip, Bob Lindquist!
@ John Sanders (also in reference to @Peteb)
It seems to be, as far as I can decipher the Peter B code, a case of inconclusive investigation result, rather than an outright rejection of TSM not being CW. That is why he soon replaced his quickly removed post with his own argument/proof re. height comparison, apparently intending to persuade his source by way of offering his own take on a more assured, rather than a “tentative,” opinion.
They are “tentatively” saying, we can’t prove they are the same, which implies, they cannot prove the opposite either. That sounds to me like an inconclusive opinion, so far. What that would mean is that the body has been confirmed as being that of TSM, but they are not inclined to take seriously Derek Abbott’s et. al’s rushed claims and argument, given all its holes. In that sense, they have taken a smart decision not to rush back and play into the unofficial team’s machinations via the media.
I strongly recommend making an analytical distinction between the utter failure of the unofficial team’s methods and schemes in proving their case that TSM is CW, and the notion that TSM can be CW. Not being able to prove it either themselves, and not having been persuaded, rightly so, by Derek Abbott’s approach, SAPOL has been left undecided about what to do, hence all this delay and still reluctance to come out, still taking a “tentative” opinion approach.
Regarding your earlier good points about the Bennett/Robertsons connection, you have inclined to think that the link implies as an evidence for TSM not being CW, trusting (more or less) that Bennett would not have lied or covered up things, given his being a relative of DJR. So, since he did not say TSM is CW, then that proves he was not.
I think the same evidence, thanks to your emphasis, may also be used in an opposite way, that is, it points to a cover-up effort to hide the links of TSM (as CW) to DJR. Now, we have lots of evidence pointing in that direction. I don’t think Pat realizes how significant her NOT finding traces of DJR has been, given she has been inclined to prove her own favorite narrative, despite the evidence she has been herself finding. The way I see it, she became a legend in TSM case. “If Pat can’t find a trace, no one can!” I see that contribution actually as a very important evidence for more interesting interpretations.
Re. David Morgan, I second your suggestion. What needed to be said is said, and hope he focuses more on recovering. I had hoped he would be “the one” with the needed skills and knowledge to confirm my findings, to take the red pill with the guts needed, but I have been mistaken (so far?) in that expectation.
There is not even a single reference to AI in my 2021 report of deciphering. I did not even know that option existed then. I am sufficiently an expert on what I proposed that even AI should seek my advice on this specific matter (of decoding the TSM code as an Arabic transliteration). I’m not sure even if AI was out publicly as it is today then, and I know I did not even know about it, nor about using it, and I have absolutely no need for an AI to prove my finding. Whoever comes back with any argument, including an AI concocted one, to disprove my findings, I assure them I will leave no stones unturned in disproving their counterargument. By drawing on AI, I just wanted to illustrate things, and show the internal inconsistencies of David Morgan’s own reasoning and efforts.
Keane observers will recall mention of my candidate having been a marine radio engineer with AWA during WW2 and it’s HQ’s close proximity to where SM’s razor and strop were purchased (T V O’Rourke). It may also be of interest re suitcase contents in that SM’s Pelaco shirt, that Pelaco (Syd.) Adelaide branch office be located at the same Charles St. address of Phillips Bros. Radios in the 40s; further that ‘Australian Dry Cleaners’ was on the same shopping level and still is, along with G. J. Coles variety store where SM may have purchased other sundry items found in his? left possessions.
@Behrooz,
Being willing to change my opinion is a strength. Except I can never be persuaded SM isn’t the guy they are showing us to be Carl Webb. Of course, if Swinburn lied about his identity and all those marriage etc certificates were generated evidence it would have been a major project for a government to cover-up his real ID.
In essence, the face that matches could have a different name – but only ‘in theory’. You’d have to say Stuart Webb was put up to it to lie about his own ID and his family photos.
The delay by SAPOL suggests massive incompetence. You can look at similar cases in the US and although too slow for researchers they do provide the answer in the end within 12 months.
They had genetic material from the coffin so something went wrong – e.g. potentially the wrong person was buried that day. The unknown man was another unknown man.
@ David Morgan,
You misunderstood my cover-up reference (made to JS, not you) in terms of the CW family side. I was not referring to that side of the story. But it does not serve any purpose for me to go into the detail of it short of a broader narrative, so will do so later.
Also, as a last point on this matter, my discussion with you regarding the code is all about the internal consistencies of your own argument. When it comes to your “strong” face recognition strategy, “coincidences” don’t matter for you and you swear by your conclusions. Folks have made up sentences with those letters for decades, as another example of coincidences. You are making up the same re. your “German” solution, and since in your case you know you are just banking on coincidences to announce breakthroughs re. this or that, you think others’ efforts are doing the same. But you evade the question of what interpretations can be made of your proposed German solution (so what does your solution result in terms of the code’s meaning?) Good luck with your solutions, seventy plus more years past, another hundred to go.
@Behrooz,
You don’t believe CW is SM. But you believe this body on the beach was an expert on Persian and the RoK.
Yet potentially CW has a link to the RoK via Balint’s “Dorothy” who said her 1948 missing Melbourne husband was an expert on the RoK.
The answer would be to get to Feltus’ files.
Another point is on the Feltus page is Charles Arthur Allsopp (Allsop or variations of) someone suggested this name. NAA says 1905 date of Birth.
https://imgur.com/a/SjrD21M
But newspaper stories seem to have him aged about 9 years older.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191414308?searchTerm=%22charles%20herbert%20allsop%22
But 6 foot 1inches.
Obviously someone researched Allsop but not CM?
More on Charles Herbert Allsopp Missing 1948
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46890491?searchTerm=%22charles%20allsopp%22%2C%20%22missing%22
The missing butcher of Joondana with a wife Jean wanting a divorce 209 Edinburgh st, Joondana – or not?
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Joondanna+WA,+Australia/Edinburgh+St,+South+Perth+WA+6151,+Australia/@-31.9442659,115.7631492,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a32aff057d76273:0x504f0b535df47b0!2m2!1d115.8369263!2d-31.9104051!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a32bb4852f90a3b:0x6da7b303459cfa77!2m2!1d115.8610366!2d-31.9784714!3e2?entry=ttu31.9784714!4d115.8610366!16s%2Fg%2F1tf7jzv1?entry=ttu
Peteb: seems you started quite a kerfufle with the withdrawn SAPOL leak on tbt. Thought you’d be thankful for my coming to your aid..all I got was a bullet from your server for not knowing me frigging password…Only GC would know stuff like that but fella’s still too occupied assisting the Coroner to talk to trolls like us.
@David Morgan
“Plus I am ill. So my physical and mental energy is limited and thought processes somewhat random”…..
I live with cancer but its manageable, from a constant aching to a really life threatening spread of it to organs, but if I focus on my herbal intake and minerals in my diet, I can change the blood’s acidity levels, increase the Krebs cycles with tons of caffeine (preferably coffee or Rockstar Energy Drinks), and force myself to eat at the keyboard to fulfil the placebo that makes the mind lose focus and the body ache more from the posturing needed.
Regardless of the mindracking experimentation you went through to get to where you are today, I wanted to ask if you were aware that when you say the words INDEX OF COINCIDENCE, that in the case of the TS Cipher it would be a direct allusion to the study of the Old English Box Ciphers, and taken literally it would describe how the letters were chosen to be added to the graph in specific locations, and how they were to be encased in the proximity of the others, used to build a patterned series of phrases.
The INDEX would be the positioning of them above and below eachother with specific word selections or letter selections chosen to be found to be used in a COINCIDENCE of them, as they appear to mesh to form additional statements when simply entered into the graph.
The mere disorder of the text as drawn by hand, and the addition of spaces between lines and drawn elements of the cipher would be the psychological slant used to dilute any focus on the raw text of the cipher, in my opinion.
These techniques are found throughout the Dahlia Avenger Cards and Torso Killing Letter, with his signature extracted.
/GeorgeHodelNuclearSpy is the page name on FB
At long last I am quietly confident that as a result of my mostly thankless efforts they have finally been vindicated in my being able to establish that a Mr.George Ambrose Phillips ships coms. officer is being beyond reasonable doubt the body found on Somerton beach on first December, 1948 at X just a few yards distance from his last known address 21 Bickford Tce. Somerton Beach S.A. Now that the easy part of the mystery has been resolved, next misson will be to ascertain poor George’s cause of death and if any others may have been involved in his demise. Sure hope other disappointed FB Charlie Webb punters might stay in the game and come along for the ride.
@breaker Good on you for defeating cancer as best you can. Me, I’m in emergency assessment most Mondays,
The Index of Coincidence (IOC) is a cryptoanalysis technique used to determine the likelihood that a given text has been encrypted using a substitution cipher. It was developed by the American cryptanalyst William F. Friedman in the 1920s.
It was interesting reading multiple good newspaper sources very few mention the glass ashtray in his suitcase. For a smoker in the 1940s it was a common item even in hotel rooms. Most repeat the ballet dancer plot – I found only one mention cycling yet if you look at cyclists who used fixed cleats in the 1940s you would find a foot and muscle match to Carl Webb.
These are the feet of a cyclist:
https://imgur.com/gallery/VlOlXNR
“The feet were comparatively broad at the joints of the toe and the foot, but the big toe and the little toe were joined together towards a common apex, in other words wedge-shaped. That peculiarity I found more pronounced than usual”. Paul Lawson.
Then they also conclude that Carl’s red dressing gown made him effeminate. I believe the police had a chuckle about it. The feet meant he wore high heels. The number of t-shirts I’ve had from female relatives at Christmas I only wear to bed are numerous. But the police would have a chuckle about them if my suitcase was found in some train station locker.
I keep finding A Webb and K Webb and H. Webb as almost semi-pro cyclists. But so far no C.Webb in the Warrnambool classic from Melbourne which historically preceded the Tours de France.
@ David Morgan,
You say: “You don’t believe CW is SM. But you believe this body on the beach was an expert on Persian and the RoK.”
You seem to be incapable of understanding others, David, unfortunately, or deliberately misattribute false notions to them to mislead others (and make yourself feel good) where you have failed to convince them. Had you read carefully what I have written, you would know I have repeatedly said SM could be CW (the last being the note to John Sanders). Where you found the rest of the sentence “the body being an EXPERT on Persian” must be from another figment of your own imagination, like SM as having been Roy, your meaningless German code coincidence breakthroughs, and others.
You have not even followed other things I have said about the help CW could have received elsewhere, or Gerald Feltus’s examples (whom you don’t mention because it disproves your notion that to do Arabic transliteration you DON’T need to be an expert in Persian or Arabic; obviously since you are not willing to educate yourself on the matter, you simply assume something out of ignorance of it; and you don’t even trust the AI’s you can consult to do it for you). You champion relaying on “strong” evidences offered by AI, showing off your coding prowess when it suits your imagination, but dismiss AI when it does not suit it, even when you found your AI confirmed something otherwise.
Derek Abbott and Colleen Fitzpatrick must be proud of “minions” like you (https://youtu.be/6_9tTJ7B4pk?si=gCRM9USD8Uu6SXnM&t=1155 already paused where it is stated), doing their jobs for them on CM; obscuring and muddying things by deliberately misrepresenting others’ views, or condescendingly just ignoring differing opinions. Some others coming from FB here to CM have already worn the condescending badge with great honor, it seems; you seem to be still aspiring to achieve the title.
Can’t be any doubting SM candidate GAP had previously been an officer and a gentleman of educated British stock (suggested by Drs. Cleland and Dwyer). To date I’ve come up with two score sailings for Ship’s radio room officer George Phillips between 1938 and ’41 all bar two on Tasman runs aboard MV Wanganella. Then three years of WW2 service with her as 2/2 hospital ship plus post war duties. S & McD. has him back home at Somerton in 1946 and 47 from memory then gone although the flawed Alphabetical section still has him at 21 Bickford Tce., up until 1952. “..SM could well have been a mariner and the Rubaiyat was possibly taken from the Radio shack aboard some ocean going vessel.” (21/2/18 SM’s Suitcase).
@Behrooz,
I think I was the only person banned from Abbott’s page for showing he was a Trove volunteer who transcribed the text alongside a picture of Carl Webb (the SM) in Melbourne. His excuse on his podcast and newspapers etc was that people in Melbourne never saw his picture – hence the reason they didn’t phone in. Then he replied ‘he forgot’ but then stopped me responding.
I think I am the only person in the CM group who had extended contact with Colleen F by email. I asked about her differing views on other podcasts and with Abbott. So I wasn’t very polite.
I also asked a Facial ID expert and forwarded his results to Abbott who wasn’t polite enough to reply like ‘Thanks I will take a look’..NADA. His one earlier reply was ‘See Twitter’ Like I could search the whole of Twitter to locate his tweet about the Sketchcop police sketch. A great university lecturer?
So I don’t think I am a minion of anyone. Also all the code examples are by AI, I keep telling you – I ask – it gives – I use to prove ideas.
I am also tired of the petty discourse that drove Pat away. Sorry, I won’t be driven away I’m afraid. Soon I may treble my input (Joking Nick!) as AI gets smarter – who knows. Alternatively, I might kick the bucket.
Nick P. must be like those Israeli drone bombing officers – click yes in 10 seconds – 37,000 times if target is male.
Checking S & McD. street index we find G. Phillips back at 21 Bickford in 43/44 (mid 45 pub) and this fits with George’s wife Mary & baby Anthony being in situ with rad still on the Wanganella. Keane observers who choose to delve further will find that they’ve left by ’48 and replaced by Mrs N.M. Phillips who is gone herself by ’49. Any reasonably astute researcher will know the identity of the last named, had they l been following the program as closely as tbt’s Clive.
“….the sunburn was definately the previous summer’s sunburn or earlier. “, th. according to Dr. Dwyer’s 1949 inquest testimony, suggestion being that SM had spent time going about wearing a shirt and bathers up to his crotch. Brings to mind that in Jan/Feb 1947 MV Wangenella, being stuck fast on a reef at the entrance to Wellington harbour for 18 days allowed essential crew such as third mate wireless officier Phillips to take advantage of perfect summer weather and work on his tan in privacy….Some as yet staunch FB Carl Webb hard cases will have noted that that Keane patriarch Gerald Thomas the stage mechanist, was himself a passenger on MV Wanganella in April 1938 but, it being a year before George commenced in the Wangi’s Radio room that would make for a date line irrelevance…thankfully!
Herein lies the enigma: My George Ambrose Phillips (2 others) the ship’s officer, according to his NAA file into. was born in Melbourne 1909, whilst his alleged brother and partner James Graham was born July 1909 in Adelaide according to the same source. So what that leave’s us with as the only plausable explanation, be a non registered adoption within the clan. I’ve come up with a prospective culprit in Doug Phillips’ younger sister Jane Elfreda who married late to a WW1 Airforce type so may have had George at age 17 in far off Melbourne before the war. Only that makes any sense and now we must await answers to related quests for info. that I’ll charge doubly to Safcol and Rupert Murdoch.
@js
Could there be 3 Geroge Ambrose’s – the dead one, the older one and yours?
https://imgur.com/SeRyiwX
This one they estimate at 1910.
This is the wireless one in 1949:
https://imgur.com/gallery/hgsvo37
and presumably in court records.
I saw an Inspector George Ambrose arrived in Albury. Could he be your SM candidate and why a cover-up?
David Morgan: you don’t listen (read); you’re not listening still, guess you never will. I mentioned the like named shoe fella and his dad from Corowa already and on my previous post I advised of “(2 others)” in addition to my George. You gotta think and act on what I tell you, before you try to catch me out with your Imgur crap.
Some information seems likely, then you realise it cannot be so. I’m looking at NAA and an Ambrose Charles Phillips, Born 1917, Instrument Repairer, Photo on page 30. In Adelaide Feb 1946, lived at Blackwood not that far from Prosper. Had 4 faint vacc marks on Left arm. Scar on chin.
David Morgan,
Just so’s you don’t get your [sic] Geroge confused with my George as you’re apt to do, here’s a run down on the immediate Phillips family of Glenelg/Somerton Park:
father Douglas Walter Phillip (import merchant) 1879-1938, mother Dora Octavia Phillips nee Walker 1885-1964, brother James Graham (pic NAA).1909-1943, himself George Ambrose, 1909-1948?, brother John Francis 1911-1921?, sister Margaret Jean Campbell Ledger (Trove pic.) 1913-1973, Merran Campbell Phillips (Trove pic.) 1915-1933…James married Nancy Mallenoir Wright 1912-2000 with known issue but she had two to Ernest McRea (NAA). George Married Army nursing Sister Mary Richardson (NAA) 1913-1985 in 1943 and had issue Anthony Dean 1945-2011.
After George disappeared circa. 47/48 Mary as Mrs. G. A. moved around Adelaide including Sth Tce. Glenelg and from late 50s as Mrs. M at second Ave. Gleneld. In 1968 she lived with her son 5AK radio Announcer Tony Phillips, at Paynham and from 1970/73 (last S&McD.) as Mrs. M. at 99 Raymond Gve. (flats). Mary died 1986 and keeps company her pre war NOKs Mr. & Sister Charles Webb at St. Judes C/E cemetery Brighton S.A. (a stroll from Somerton Beach & X marks the spot. There’s more but I try not to bore.
@Sanders, I found Lloyd Davey Phillips also living in Bickford Street, No.11 – his photo and large file is in NAA – any connection with No.21? Do you think George Phillips is the Somerton Man? I’m enjoying looking for George, and yet, I don’t really know why I’m lookin’, but there it is, I am looking, What have you heard re the South Australian Police DNA findings? It’s all very curious.
Nothing much of relevance neither in mugger’s name, age or trade and calling as instrument repairer? now that Chuck Webb be no longer a condender. Army file has his trade and calling as gardener but when he signs up for the RAAF he’s a trainee machinist. Gets full marks for having first inlistment at Glenelg of all places.
@JS,
So his [sic] father was Phillip not Phillips I see so he changed his name to Phillips. It makes it really hard to track such name changes. So he was George Ambrose Phillip [sic] not Phillips?
Typos beewear!
it wastes a post doing [sic] crap!
So we have 3 George Ambrose Phillips’? But only 1 with an NAA record?
One is a wireless guy – but he’s not the one you say? Yet he’s the one who married Sister Mary. Why do we need to know about him in detail if he’s not the one?
https://imgur.com/a/mSDiRMl
and he was in court 1949 – so not dead 1948.
https://imgur.com/gallery/hgsvo37
So which George Ambrose are we chasing?
The Police Inspector?
Clive: Fortunately there happens to be a NAA file for my George Ambrose Phillips re a 1986 application for his WW2 merchant marine war service medals. We may have a month to wait on obtaining any worthwhile information to come back but I’m quiertly confident nonetheless.
@JS
In conclusion, unless you GAP was a policeman or wireless GAP’s dad you have researched yourself to exhaustion for no good reason.
The best method researching suspects is to try to find them alive after 1948 first. I found wireless GAP in 1949 and therefore he can’t be SM.
So I have no idea who your GAP who died in 1948 is …honestly…
Jerry Feltus says “A pair of trousers was manufactured in Sydney but laundry marks on the pocket lining indicated a possible link to the United Kingdom”
This suggests the trousers were not Jerry Keane’s but John Russell Keane’s returned in his luggage from Ireland.
If JRK’s luggage returned to his mother shows the same canvas laundry bag, sports jacket and trousers end of story. Carl = SM. Because clothes = JRK’s.
So here we go…
https://imgur.com/gallery/EGpSmzo
Not entirely conclusive but near enough.
David Morgan: A George Ambrose Phillips was in UK and Capetown during 1939 and sailed aboard aboard SS Themistocles to Sydney during 1939. Still trying to figure out the goings on with George of Corowa, whether or not, and if so, how he might connect with George, son of Ambrose (Cowra) and (adopted) son of Doug & Dora Phillips of Somerton. The mind boggles…perhaps you might provide datelines for your startling Imgur images. Well done by the way and more to come I’m sure.
David Foregone conclusions,
What can we make of the following brief plaque marker inscriptions:
St. Judes Brighton cemetery South Australia.
Sister Mary Phillips SX12307 2/2 Australian Army Hospital Ship Wanganella
1939-45 (Death) 15th October 1986 (birth unknown).
Corowa Lawn Cemetery N.S.W.
Un Loving Memory of George Ambrose Phillips 24th July 1974 aged 64 years.
(Born 1910). NB: ‘Un’ might be a Gothic ‘In’ but anything goes with this doozy.
David Morgan,
Seeing as you started the rot (could make us rich & famous if we survive) i’ll let you take care of the easy part while I did deeper into the can of worms. So let’s start you off with Ambrose George Thomas the elder (1884-1978) who served part time in WW2 as a Cpl. with ADC aged 60, 5’6″ tall, 165lb, black hair balding, brown eyes, obese an missing left testicle. He was then married to Edith Georgina 1877-1966 late of Corowa pioneer cem see mem.) plenty of kids inc. George. Next there be 1st wife Mary ‘Cissie’ Isabella nee Tuttleby (1883-1921) who married Amby 1909 and bore him a son George Ambrose every year thereafter up until & inc. 1915 (MH), plus an unamed daughter in 1918, three years before death us do part…well not exactly, you’ll see what I mean when you check the mom & pop grave and realise half the family’s missing. Meantime I’ll be busy cross checking earlier research of Phillips family’s residential status in Ferris Ave. & Madge/Bickford Tce., Somerton Beach to confirm that Doug, George, Jim and Nan Phillips were each recorded in Sands & McD., circa.1933 to ’48. Something tells me we may need to summons help from Commie hunters Byron Deveson & his former pal Gordon Cramer to advise on their ‘reds under our beds’ plot they warned us about. I’m half serious!
@DM: sorry to bother but, I’d like to examine complete items along with dates of publicationn of your latest George Phillips item links. This be in order to compare them with possibly conflicting scans of my own, if that’s not too much trouble. A bloke’s gotta be super cautious with Imgur image transparency these days.
@DM: all’s in order with my previously affirmed residency status for George 1938 through 1940 at Madge/Bickford, then back for 1946/7 which gels with his sea duty profile to a tee. I can’t fathom why he might have skipped out on his wife and son then gone off to Corowa for a dead end job with his A. G. Phillips & Son est. 1885? working with the George the younger? Rather confusing and unlikely to say the least, but that ain’t all by a long stretch, whatsmore A. G.’s second wife Edith (older than Cissie) then stakes claim to six kids some of whom are obviously left overs whom she may never have met. Maj. Winton Henry Phillips 1913-2010 army Dr. for one and t’other Geoffrey Belfield Phillips 1915-1942 a RAN PO who went down with the Sydney in the Solomons (not Salomonson). At the end of the day confusion be winner and it’s all your doing with coersion of Imgur of course…as a bonus we find A. G. in the Corowa Lawn cemetery and his beloved Edith Georgina, at eight years his senior over the other side of town at fancy Pioneer Lodge.
Whoops wrong ship, wrong city; it being of course HMAS Canberra, sunk by friendly torpedos and bombardment, all for the better good of course. Then the alies built and named a replacement namely in her honour USS Canberra how thoughtful.
@Jo,
I’d been interested in the folks who lived near the Alvington polio kid’s home from the start and actually posted on it at the time. Coupla years later I developed what I thought to be a contender in Ferris Ave. who I traced to Germany and back to Aust. but the implications proved complex and far above my modest means to follow up. I came upon George Ambrose Phillips quite by chance after accidently jagging his wife Mary on an unrelated NAA check where George appeared as NOK along with a Sister Webb. Won’t bore you with the rest which at first was full of ‘could be SM intrigue’ but not so likely now with the quite remarkable Corowa developement courtesy of @DM.
@DM: Don’t give up on the case just yet; not now that Jo is Keane to join in the show with her always entertaining humorous take on George Ambrose Phillips.
A couple of things just crossed my mind that don’t necessarily fit or detract from your latest Imgur ‘gotcha’ stuff, including snide spin ala FB Steve H. and Pat o rato.
One of your snipped news clips refers to ‘hero Sister Mary telegraming her family announcing her marriage (1/43) to her family in Adelaide. To all intents Mary was estranged from her parents, father Frank having left home when she was six and mum apparently leaving her upbringing to Sister and Charles Webb’s family. The undated item that seems irrefutable refers to George joining A. G. Phillips firm to take over wireless sales that outlines his long employment with AWA but strangly says not a word about his five years at sea. I saw an add in the Corowa Free Press from January 1945 nominating George Phillis in charge of the shop, this despite my George still serbing on the Wanganella. I somehow get the feeling that Ambrose may also have been known as George in ’45 which might explain all the confusion. Adding to the conundrum, it would appear that yet another younger George be working at one of the family stores. Speaking of Mary’s George, I’m interested in if had he survived, why did he never apply for his well earned WW2 service medals whilst hers, like most others with entitlement, were issued soon after the end of hostilities. Maybe we should bide awhile before we give up altogether on Georgy Porgy.
@Jo, (fun fact)
German/Polish pals Arno & Felix arrive Aust.,1939 (NAA file & pics.) join Tivoli in Melb. and spend the war years touring as a circus high wire act with Wirths Bros. Around 1946 S & McD., records indicate they take over premises at 21 Ferris Av., Somerton, from radio bros. Jim & George Phillips after death of dad D. W. Phillips (shipping agent importer), the pair staying put til 1949 then disappearing from the scene altogether. In 1954 both their names appear on SS Orsova arrival records ex London giving int. address 29 Devon St. Goodwood (opp. Glenelg tram terminus), with Mrs. E. Kohler & infant son as baggage. There be no records of subsequent residency there or anywhere else in S.A. MOST interesting, three decades later an Arno bn. 1905 shows up as a dead Lutheran at Rookwood (Syd) cemetery with no mention of family. Somewhat different with poor fake Felix who dies unloved in a Melb. lunatic asylum (See PROV) with a 1913 birth year as opposed to 1903. Now back to 1946 when friends A. F. Kohler (var) & F. Slavinski (var) apply for and are granted Aust. citizenship with accompanying papers issued. Whilst Arno’s are not available on line, Franz docs. are seen as having been signed for and collected by known black hand (?) agent Theresa Cordera (NAA). Guess you can figure out the ‘final solution’ outcome re the disappearence and probable dismemberment of two ‘Jew boys’ who sold their names so as to enable legit passports to be issued in London subsequently to listed post war nazis wanting ID for resettlement abroad no doubt about it. You’ll find my related report somewhere amongst CM dead end posts that no one bar milongal took seriously at the time. If you like that fine piece of ‘slanders’ fiction, she’s yours mate with my compliments.
@Poppins: Lloyd Davey Phillips doesn’t impress in spite of his electrical instrument rating and don’t know how he ended up being so far from the madenning crowd in Bickford Tce. circa. 42/47? when he was away from home with RAAF most of the time. Maybe English wife May had an interest in farming or summit. Thanks for the input anyhow, much appreciated.
@js
I was hoping you knew about inspector George Phillips I don’t remember seeing his name in the Albury stuff on the PG case.
It’s not a gotcha when you knew it already.
@DM (Corowa Free Press Tue. 30 Jan 1945 amd.)
A. G. PHILLIPS & SON
SANGER STREET___COROWA
‘Phone 54
AUTHORISED DISTRIBUTORS OF THE FISK RADIOLA
Australia’s Finest Broadcast Receiver
SALES AND SERVICE
Repairs To All Makes of Receivers
See Us for Valves and Battery Replacements
Under Personal Supervision of Mr. George Phillips & Imgur Fake News
In order to seek some clarity as to mysterious George Phillips of Somerton, I had hoped to track down decendants of the family but alas there appear to be none in the offing. Best hope would have been his sister-in-law Nan who remarried after James’ fatal ‘accidental’ on new years day 1943 at Albury NSW. They had married in 1936, settling at Bickford Tce. and there were strangely no issue before her Phillips husband (wireless engineer) joined the AIF in ’41 and left for the war. Nan later (when?) tied the knot with Ernie Barton, a widower since 1943 and former AIF (stay home) clerk who had failed in his attempt to join the RAAF officer ranks due to his timidity. He had a son Ian to Effie but no issue with Nan, the couple living variously at Glenelg, Evandale and Marino til Ernie died in 1973 and she passed in 2000. In 1969 and again in 1970? they had taken a couple of cruises to NZ then Japan etc., aboard up market SS Sir Francis Drake. There was another surviving Phillips sister Margaret Campbell who appears to have married but my efforts to track her down are not making headway to date. Thought yous’d all like to know for peace of mind.
So, if Corowa George Ambrose Phillips, radio tech and marine wireless officer, son of radio merchandiser Ambrose George Thomas Phillips, not be one and the same with G. Phillips, radio retailer formerly of Bickford Tce. Somerton, than what might his true origins have been and what prompted his departure around the time of SM’s farewell gig on the beach a chain from his abode. Adding to the conundrum, James Graham Phillips, confirmed son of Doug and Dora of the same address, was himself an electrical engineer and decorated field radio coordinator at El-Alamein. As a gammy footed teen, Jim held broadcasting licenses for two radio stations 5BX & 5BW and one might wonder, for one how he overcame a failed physical to gain inlistment at 33, plus the strange circumstances of his accidental death at Albury soon after his RTA from Libya. Anyone having ideas as to how this all might pan out will still have to fit Nurse Mary Phillips of Brighton into the frame along with son Anthony Phillips (dec.) who was himself a youthful 5AK radio announcer in the 60s. As for my missing sibling Margaret Jean Campbell Phillips, don’t think for a NY minute that she might be identical with a ‘nee’ namesake (Ledger) of W.A. or a much younger MJC (Beckwith) from Vic. If we can track her down then who knows we might get some answers from an old un-shopped family album.
Know what, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if sweet diminuitive Marge Phillips picked up a successful Brit. Coconut merchant out of Colombo; Same deal as her best pal super rich Molly McBride of Partridge St. Glenelg who married CM Lennie Pound in Adelaide around the time of her sister Marren’s sad passing in ’33. Reason being, only her birth in 1913 is recorded on S.A.G records. Guess she could have moved to Sydney or summit as she had holidayed there in the twenties from memory. My God she was a shorty so unlikely to have hit on someone big like Pavel Fedosimov.
@js
Did you ever track inspector Phillips of Albury?
He didn’t seem to make a mark.
@ Pete Bowes,
As much as I wish to agree with your second “Awaiting Developments 2” regarding the delay in the announcements of the official results, I think it is worth considering that the factors you have listed https://tomsbytwo.com/category/uncategorized/ seem to be about SAPOL reporting things to the Coroner, and not about the Coroner’s own report to be released to the public (unless you heard other things through the grapevine that you have not spelled out in your list). They are saying we completed 1-3, almost done with 4, to be followed up with 5 in early 2024. So, it may have very well happened that they have passed on their report to the Coroner’s office by now (“early 2024” basically having ended). So, it is now up to the Coroner to complete his report.
So, we may not be hearing back still, or even soon, from the Coroner’s office, if he ends up running into difficulties with explaining the broader story of the case. So, rightly so, given so many decades have not resulted in plausible answers, and the unofficial team having failed miserably in advancing their own interpretations of their alleged breakthroughs, the Coroner may end up sitting on his report for a while.
A careful reading of the report pdfs on the linked page you have helpfully shared suggests that his job is really to end the case providing all the answers, or, alternatively, coming back and saying we do not yet have the full answer of what the case was about, but we can offer the results 1-4, as you have listed. Perhaps the latter is a way to go for him, but preferably, I think he would like now to offer the final story of what happened, given the body exhumation took place, others have offered their thoughts, and now it is time for him to come up with a final case-closed narrative.
I shared the above just to make you or others not feel too disappointed if you don’t hear back from him “in a matter of days.” The answers you had received seemed to be about how SAPOL will report to the Coroner, not about the Coroner’s timeline to the public. And that may have already come true.
Behrooz … I couldn’t agree more. The coroner’s timing is another matter completely.
@DM: Not yet, but I believe Act. Insp. Phillips was replacement (temp) for Inspector Monty Crozier, Boer war veteran of Concord who sadly died on the job early April, 1933 and sorely missed naturely. I don’t think George Phillips bn. 1880? lasted much longer in the job himself. Did you check Albury cemetery records yet, might be an idea.
@DM: Albury Border Morning Mail 9 March 1935 on ‘mystery of the pearls’ with officer Sanders (dog squad) and OIC Inspector Phillips but no first names. Could
it be yet another Imgur prank?
As a test for when the SM inquest report appears I went through Mr Le’s case with MS copilot and it was quite thorough. Though I wondered about the exhibits not being available to know on what the opinion was formed.
Without the exhibits it will be hard for the discussion about SM to end. I mean if they had the mtDNA/DNA analysis but don’t show the report it would be hard to evaluate the inquest conclusion.
@DM: still zilch on Inspector George Phillips. However I’m in your debt for puting me on to a couple of Vietnam era pals from Corowa, Pte’s B. Aitchison & K. Weir who were both badly wounded and RTA’d early in ’68 so I never really knew what became of them. From the Albury Border paper I find that perpetually chuckling Brian be at rest (2018) in with the Phillips clan and Ken was last heard of in 2022 living rough in a tent along the Murray with his cat woofa. Some seem to get all the breaks.
only Acting inspector
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223044506?searchTerm=%22inspector%20george%20phillips%22
Acting Inspector 3rd Class George Phillips, stationed at Albury,—as from 9th May, 1933.
and Constable James Frederick Sanders, stationed at Barrin – a family member?
@DM: Yes. That’s what I called him had you been looking, or are abbreviations ie., Act. Insp. George Phillips not acceptable in this place? I guess you also have a problem with early April, 1933 take over instead of the officially gazetted date too!
@ Peter Bowes,
I am glad the matter of timeline of the Coroner’s decision has been clarified or at least we all seem to agree (hopefully, if we are correct; at least, thanks to you, we can assume they have the SAPOL reports, and will have them soon). Given what @John Sanders has also added on your site https://tomsbytwo.com/2024/04/10/awaiting-developments-2/#comments it seems it may take a while, if the old rules of procedure applies. Given the time lapsed, they may offer some exception, who knows. As David Morgan says, they have been contacted so they know people are looking forward to their decision in a timely way. The Coroner has a big (not enviable!) file on his hands, a decades-long mystery, so I am sure he will be busy with that file too!
A breakthrough of sorts pertaining to the mystery disappearance of Margaret Jean Campbell Phillips of Somerton: I’ve received confirmation courtesy of Trove that in the 1929 South Australian public examinations for high school leaving certificate, Margaret was successful at age of seventeen in gaining honours in english, maths, geography and geology, thus qualifying for universty entrance. I’ll now call on our lifelong campus queen Diane to offer an explanation as to what likely became of her.
@Peter Bowes and Co.y
Sure you and Clive picked up on my ‘Jet’ Whittle pun, it being merely a tag based on the S.A. Coroner’s famous namesake Frank; Guess I might also have gotten away with Yank. Either way I’m sure HH wouldn’t mind. GC picked up on it rather smartly I must say and one might have cause to wonder how so…Anyhow Mr. Coroner, if you’re not too busy, you might put a flame (controlled) under Det. Supt. Bray’s ‘ass’ and put our disillusioned FBook colleagues out of their misery. Nudge nudge, know what I mean?
So many comments! It’s time for a song!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HagUKWIJ-to
Jo: thank’s but I can’t do youtubes but, if you have the lyrics reckon I can come up with a nice tune for guitar or keyboard.
Jo: hilarious and yet a tiny bit pants! Thanks for the link! 😁
I want to see the questions asked on SM on Aussie mastermind. Anyone got the list of Q’s. And do they mention Carl Webb?
If so, we know who will be writing in to the network to complain saying his answer was wrong and depriving him of his title perhaps.
Headline: “Ex-copper nabbed my Mastermind title”
@ Nick – the singer, Clark, appeared on the Australian version of Mastermind! He was bowled out by not knowing that Gerald Keane had married Freda Grace Webb. I’m hoping Pete Bowes will step up for Hard Quiz! (Me, I had an appearance on The Chase and was taken down by The Beast!).
@Jo
Could Carl be Spotter? He stops Aug 1942 with lines from
https://www.hwlongfellow.org/poems_poem.php?pid=2047
He sees Roy Webb who was not there. He talks of fictional soldier “ginger” and going to hospital May 1943.
@DM: in re your Last Post I bumped into Spotter post ’42 in Korea of all places and that’s the good news. Bad tidings be in that I’ve found the bum what gave the lie to Roy being born in Camperdown thus prompting FB Jo to run with the ‘Furphy’ in vane hopes of saving your hold on sanity..til truth rode in and raised the alarm.
@David Morgan,
Some additional good news following on from your FB reference to Marriage of Russell & Amy, as announced per Camperdown Herald; in that our Leslie Scott’s dad Sam had headed up the short lived rag during WW1. Seems that the country town was indeed pretty well known to the Springvale & Essendon Webbs, albeit a tad too early for our Roy’s & Freda Scott’ surmised attendance at C.H.E.S. in ’21.
@js
I suspected a Scott link. Some vague memory – you probably said it some years ago and I thought it was a different location. It would be interesting to find out whether the Camperdown Chron had a Scott owner as well. It seems to have a theme of friendly stuff about the locals. It might explain ‘in my Carl Webb Spotter theory’ how a non-journo got a job on a newspaper for 12+ months.
Spotter’s references to a soldier named Ginger smacks of a ginger kid having a go at society. I could imagine Carl was ‘the ginger kid’ in the staff room with teachers or ‘Oi Ginger!’ in the playground. Then his animal trapped and hunted was a ginger fox. It all smacks of ginger Carl feeling a misfit. A ginger cuckoo in the nest?
Jo: you might take a gander at todays ABC News comfit picture of Keith Lees, wanted on warrant in Qld for killing Meaghan Rose in 1997. Does it resemble anyone you’ve spotted on line at Abbott’s site recently?
Two choices Jo, one’s balding and picking a guitar t’other’s not, but intent on airing our Gould league bird lovers theme with his Longfellow derge nonetheless. Get the picture.
@ Johnno – I consider that to be an unfair comment and note that it is a comfit picture.
@DM: You might find that Spotters fictional ‘Ginger’ was no less than Ginger Mick, the C. J. Dennis rabbitof Melbourne markets who came to a sad but heroic end in the big one of 1914-18.
@JS,
Is that Hurwood speaking as you again with some weird stuff?
Geddit/Get the picture – very Hurwood!
@js postal votes from 1902 – who knew? 1917 seems to be a date AI thinks Aussie soldiers had them. But age was a factor.
1943:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28323659?searchTerm=%22ginger%22%2C%20%22spotter%22
I think the writer was being creative so no real person involved. It sounds like an Irish story told down the pub often repeated and a bit added to the story during the telling. The presiding officer bit to make it convincing. Did he write to Ginger (C.J) in France? It would be logical that he didn’t believe C was Ginger.
@Joe & DM: spitt’n image dopelgangers sure ‘nough. Far too clever for Hurwood of Blackpool to have shuftied so quickly!
David Morgan,
I recall making mention of Carl possibly visiting C.J. at the poet’s bush retreat in the wilderness ranges above Monbulk where he went trecking in ’33. It goes without saying that I think his bleached bones may yet be found by some intrepid hiker one day years after we’re gone.
I asked You,com to summarise this section of the web site. [Child with new AI toy!]
it arrived at:
https://imgur.com/a/eme8l0k
The interesting part was the blood pooling.
In the Pyjama girl case Dr Palmer-Benbow saw blood pooling in the head like a body carried on a horse. He had served as a surgeon WW1 & saw lots of bodies carried on horses. Perhaps in the PG case the body was carried on a bull not a horse or tied in a potato sack on top of a fast roadster (similar to Carl’s old car).
I love this source – mostly accurate.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/237130493?keyword=%22pyjama%20girl%22
Horses, bodies, blood pooling. No I can’t put it together…perhaps someone with a higher intellect can make it make sense. Where is Dr PB when you need him.
Oh yeh,
In the PG case, Ginger Quin[n] Dr PB’s suspect was in hospital shortly after this PG event after being thrown from his horse. Perhaps his horse didn’t like carrying dead bodies.
@Js,
If you have high/reasonable quality pics (Imgur’d) I can verify with facial ID.
David, I have some reasonable quality images of both Car and Richard Webb, the ones that are available on the internet .. perhaps you might consider verifying their very apparent likenesses using AI .. I’ve proposed the same question over tomsbytwo. Hoping to hear back from you.
@peteB
I was assuming someone (JS) had some new images to test with all the “get the picture – stuff”. Richard will never match his children with facial ID. Twins don’t always match with modern facial ID as more landmarks are now used. I had twin matches with old v1 systems that no longer match because they measured only 49 not 80 landmarks and then accepted 70% of 49. Betaface demo is available for anyone to use to see relative scores. Green boxes do not mean the same person just ‘more likely’ than a red box. Old Mons was a higher green box score than Carl to SM but Carl was younger. If you had Carl at 35 it would change.
Anyone can test with the OpenCV demo online. it is the best. Mxface was next but they dropped the free demo even after I helped them. But you have to be of the mindset that you want them to match. if you want them to mismatch you can choose bad quality/badly scaled images to prove it. It is easy. Show people and say “it’s a fix” I have seen it many times.
Facial Landmarks in Biometrics.. for passports
“Facial landmarks are unique features on the face that are used in biometric systems to measure and analyze the physical characteristics of an individual’s face. These features include aspects such as the distance between the eyes, the width of the nose, the depth of the eye sockets, the shape of the cheekbones, and the length of the jawline. ”
It is the ‘taken together’ aspect that makes them unique, Biometric facial recognition systems typically measure and analyze around 68 to 80 unique points or features on a human face. Some systems may consider it a match if 60-70% of the points align. Each system sets the bar they choose.
When Dr Palmer Benbow ‘the real inventor of facial ID’ presented the measurements in court of the face of the body in the Pyjama Girl case v the face in a photograph scientists laughed at him. Yet many now have passports with biometrics. He actually went a step further than many modern systems and used angles (sine, tan, cos) whereas they mostly use Euclidian distances. That was the objection in the 1940s that Euclidian distances didn’t take account of the curve of the face. They would have all been taught Haversine in school to measure distances on the Earth.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46730751?searchTerm=%22haversine%22
LIkely Carl Webb and John Richard Keane were taught Haversine in school or RAAF for sailing or flying.
Facial landmarks
https://medium.com/codex/facial-landmark-detection-algorithms-5b2d2a12adaf
Note it is possible to deliberately make matches mismatch by scaling images incorrectly. I faced that using images from web sites. But you could never scale a mismatch to match unless you used AI. But good luck with that.
I could easily develop a theoretical Haversine-based facial ID system – treating the face like a planet. But how accurate would that be for people who don’t have faces like a planet? Especially dead bodies. Had Benbow proposed it in 1940 likely would have approved of it in court.
The most interesting modern facial ID match is sketchcop’s sketch of SM/Carl Webb. Now that was a clever use of a photograph to create a sketch that matches better than 2 photographs. He claimed he had no knowledge of the match but wouldn’t tell me how he created it. I wanted to write about it for a dissertation but I had to drop the idea due to lecturer hostility to facial ID. Many criminology lecturers think it is some dark art like witchcraft – yet they all have passports with biometrics.
David M, not that Richard … The other one, the blonde… Charles Richard Webb
.
This fellow.
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/12/03/my-name-is-charles-charles-richard-webb
Peteb: David M. won’t do it. Simple reasons being, one that your Charles R. be his “Charlie” and two, he agrees with Stuart Webb’s FB 1925 dating of the family photo So that naturally rules your C. R. Webb, fruiterer in his mind regardless of any AI comparison, purely on the basis of C. R. having been only eight years old in ’25. Get the picture?
When I was txt chatting with Stuart Webb he said the same, the back row blonde in the family photo couldn’t have been Richard Charles because, according to Stuey he would only have been about twelve at the time.
However …
He based this opinion on the age of Amy, also in the shot, and who died in the same year after a long illness. I’m no doctor but Amy looks pretty healthy to me in the photo, and that may be because she may well be Amy’s daughter, also named Amy.
And if that’s the case then everything changes, right David?
And credit where it’s due, it was the shabster who cottoned onto that first.
@PB and @JS I have tested them all. I don’t need to prove it. The software is out there for all to use. Prove it to yourself you are wrong. In 100 years you will never get CR to match with anyone other than himself with ‘modern’ facial ID systems like OpenCV (free demo!).
Also, It is logical it was 1929 not 1925 based on all the evidence of who was alive etc. Kid at the front Leo. where/when he went to school – we went through all that on CM. That bit is over unless you want to quarrel about the day and event in 1929.
Someone said yesterday on Twitter – intelligence is the willingness to be able to accept new evidence and change your mind. I think it was quoting someone fairly famous.
I have repeatedly shown facial ID is 100% certain CW = SM. I even asked a University expert to check. Abbott says his mtDNA/genealogy and possibly other info he has (we probably don’t know) proves it.
The logic of the familysearch genealogy tree for Richard August Webb makes perfect sense – Angela H should be commended – apart from the pics which I think may be right/wrong for some people. I doubt Stuart knew any of them apart from his own gran and grandad.
So there are 3 legs on the Carl Webb = SM ID stool – genealogy, DNA and facial ID.
It all makes sense to me.
@JS
Charles Bickford spit of SM?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/58817150?searchTerm=%22charles%20bickford%22
Lobes detached?
@JS
There is no “get the picture” no “geddit” like SH. No global conspiracy to say Carl Webb was the SM. No CM members chat to each other down the pub or via secret messaging systems to decide to undermine Sanders and Bowes who are the ones who really know the truth and the rest of us conspire to hide it.
You have to think of outliers in graphs and charts. You and PB are outliers. The middle ground accepts SM = CW.
@DM: Charles Bickford, or was it his stand in what was hospitalised in Adelaide after being attacked by a tiger on set in Sumatra in the thirties. My CM posts from 2016 might provide more detail for anyone with the time to dig & delve.
@DM : Too late mate, you’ve already been found in flagrant delicto with Pat Valle for the ‘get slanders’ Lalique glass toure de Carl trophy con which failed dismally. Your “outlier” status for PB and Me be a compliment; but as for your SM = CM “middle grounders”, I reckon FB outliars’ be more appropriate.
David Morgan .. what proof do you have that the Freeman Rubaiyat ever existed, and hearsay should be considered unacceptable
@PB,
My reason for my lengthy diatribe is you have too much ‘opinion’ and no facts on your blog. It would be like me saying “I think SM was a ballet dancer who dressed up as a woman in high eels and grew his hair long because he was gay”. No facts just opinion.
Whereas I try to spend hours searching Trove trying to find Carl in some cycling event to show he was a cyclist not a ballet dancer.
Opinions are cheap research takes time. My research on the Isdal Woman has been since 2018. Often it runs in the back of my mind. it’s not always active searching. Then out of the blue – like last week a person will message me to tell me where the old female police officer now lives. it sparks a look at that old research again. I might get no response for a year and off again…
The DIIV FB/podcast membership grew to 41k because I kept providing research for the site. It almost matches the number of people who read all my early “researched” theories on medium.com. Without me it would have been closed down because I am the “DIIV pub alcoholic that keeps the bar open”.
I told you.com AI I can be their best ambassador. When I tested prisms.ai i wrote to authors showing them reviews of their book reviews which they really liked.
e.g. (like this)
I have analyzed the reviews for Gerry Feltus’s book “The Unknown Man: A Suspicious Death at Somerton Beach” on Amazon UK. Here are the key strengths and weaknesses I identified:
Strengths:
Comprehensive research: Many reviewers praise Feltus for his thorough and meticulous research into the Somerton Man case, providing a wealth of information and details.
Insider perspective: As a former detective who worked on the case, Feltus offers unique insights and first-hand knowledge of the investigation.
Well-written and engaging: Several reviewers mention that the book is well-written, easy to follow, and maintains the reader’s interest throughout.
Includes photographs and documents: The book contains photographs and documents related to the case, which reviewers appreciate as they help visualize the investigation.
Sheds light on a mysterious case: Readers find the book valuable for providing a comprehensive account of a fascinating unsolved mystery.
Weaknesses:
No definitive answers: Some reviewers express disappointment that the book does not provide a conclusive solution to the mystery, though they acknowledge the difficulty given the case’s age and lack of evidence.
Repetitive at times: A few reviewers mention that the book can be repetitive in certain sections, rehashing information multiple times.
Editing and proofreading issues: A couple of reviewers point out minor editing and proofreading errors in the book.
Limited appeal for non-enthusiasts: One reviewer suggests that the book may be too detailed for readers who are not deeply interested in the case or true crime genre.
Overall, the reviews suggest that Feltus’s “The Unknown Man” is a well-researched, comprehensive, and engaging account of the Somerton Man case, offering valuable insights from a former detective’s perspective. However, some readers may find the lack of a definitive conclusion disappointing, and the book’s appeal may be somewhat limited to true crime enthusiasts.
Claude AI (avail in you.com) could trawl the entire book (if i fed it) in about 2 seconds and come back with all the typos and grammar errors. Then, also suggest how to improve it better than any paid book editor to remove the repetition in Feltus’ book.
Unsung heroes of research.
There are so many unsung heroes of research – like Angela H on family search who built the Webb family tree – finding sources (and paying).
Personally, I have had a Texan lady (Linda Ziemann) create a tree for my own research and she didn’t even tell me. She had been in email contact while creating it. There was also another bloke whose name I never knew – who understood I had a problem identifying a doctor in Strasbourg by some form of ‘crime osmosis’. I never knew how he knew. Initially, he simply arrived at the same wrong answer as me and gave up. But then he had that bright spark and searched theses for doctors in Strasbourg and found him.
The biggest blockages to research IMO are paid archivists. I had one make me wait 12 months for an update and then when I entered the new digital site the one thing I wanted to see wasn’t there. He said it was just a New Year’s card they didn’t scan. Like they can decide what is important in a human archive. Imagine if it had been a Christmas card by Einstein sketching out a theory. Actually, it should have been important to them because it was a card to their library archive founder’s son. How do they decide what is important? Another refused to respond to my queries as a uni student for over 3 years claiming “busy”. They had a link on the archive for customer Qs. Another in Vermont who had written about a hospital refused to tell me when my candidate worked there. I must have been one of few people who’d ever shown an interest in his archive and he refused to help… I could go on about paid archivists…
David Morgan: I asked you a simple question, are you able to give a simple response?
While you’re whiling away the time bored shitless by the antics of Bowes, you might care to check out a couple of pics to compare with facial features of our deceased from 1948. First by name of Gordon James Phillips S/N 2009 1st AIF, whose pic is on AWM’s Moveable Memorial site, then there’s his nephew James Graham Phillips SX2395 of WW2 vintage whose pics are on his NAA file. My take is that neither are dead spits for SM, however Gordon does have the fleshy face with the same chin shape and I am taken by how close the ears be to SMs. As for namesake James, once again not much to write home about excepting for the lips which have identical overbite and opposite to those of the imposter Charlie Webb. Pity we have no photos of his toes, only a file note saying they were malformed in much the same way as our main man…Whether you see anything or not, please spare a thought for the lads, neither of whom lived to see their families again. PS: For those who be unfamiliar, I’m searching for a relative G. Phillips (radio tech.) of Somerton who went missing from Bickford Tce. in 1948.
Luv ya, Johnno, deeply and sincerely .. kind of
Carl W. is completely recognisable in the reconstructed morgue picture, without a doubt. Handsome guy.
Lawson merely mentioned, that the SM’s toes were pointing towards a common apex. Dwyer did not mention anything at all about it, so it was apparently just slightly and not even worth mentioning. I’m sure he had gorgeous feet.
Concerning the hair colour, that was described as per the CI and pathologist’s notes as sandy/ginger/mousy. The best way to describe that is probably gold blonde, darkened.
Instead of all this speculation, directly checking with the Camperdown Chronicle as Jo suggested would be much more effective.
There was no mention of any surgery scars, malformed feet or corns by the pathologist whatsoever. The prints in the shoes also show normal toes. Case dismissed.
I just used AI with a series of factual statements and pretended it was a Murdle Mystery Quiz
For you to read if you wish:
https://link.medium.com/0dplOVPZzJb
I agreed with AI.
DM: The Christ said “thou shalt not worhip false idols” also “….. Lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil…etc”. If the Good Lord says so, it be fine with me mate, I’ll leave you to follow your AI idol down the pathway to an eternity of hellfire and damnation if that’s your wont..Never too late to change your evil ways.
…and by the way fellow sinner, your idea of “factual statements” run along similar lines as those we’re so used to hearing from likes of Gordon Cramer & Co.
If you find trusting links and reading difficult here it is in pictorial form.
https://imgur.com/gallery/deductions-by-ai-from-factual-statements-about-carl-webb-spotter-somerton-man-period-1917-to-1948-beyond-6Jvt3mA
Strange poisonous weed in Camperdown 1915 – growing in Manifold Street. Horses and cattle avoid eating it. W.S. Scott owner of the Camperdown Herald and Chairman of the local Agricultural society can’t identify it. Not native?
https://imgur.com/gallery/strange-poisonous-weed-camperdown-1915-NShZqih
Is this the poison Carl Webb had remembered since 1915 to take to the Somerton beach?
Cushion Spurge, also known as Euphorbia epithymoides, is primarily recognized for its ornamental and landscaping applications. Although it has been traditionally used in herbal medicine, it’s crucial to note that the plant contains toxic compounds and can cause skin irritation. Therefore, it’s not typically recommended for medicinal use due to its potential toxicity.
Euphorbia epithymoides, also known as cushion spurge, is not native to Australia. It is native to Libya, Turkey, and East, Middle, and Southeast Europe.
Safety: The milky sap of the plant is a skin irritant, so it’s advisable to wear gloves when working with euphorbias. Euphorbia epithymoides is listed as being toxic to cats, dogs, and horses.
The milky sap of Euphorbia species, including Euphorbia epithymoides, has been used in traditional medicine for various purposes:
Anti-inflammatory agent: The sap has significant anti-inflammatory activity and could be used for arthritis treatment, body swelling, and provides relief for people suffering from Rheumatic Arthritis and Fibromyalgia. It can also offer relief and healing to skin conditions such as Eczema which is an inflammatory condition of the skin.
Controls Asthma: Euphorbia has another popular name called asthma weed due to its excellent ability to fight against asthma, bronchitis, chest congestion, flu, and cold.
Boosts Immune System: Euphorbia boosts the immune system against viral infections, fungal infections, and provides general wellness.
Eye Infections: A liquid pulp is made using the flowers of the plant. It is proven to effectively treat eye-infections.
—
Strange coincidence. A skull was found a few years ago in a street near me. I contacted local journalists and told them exactly where to park their car to watch the forensic search unfold. We never heard anything more about it. It never made the news. There was a range of vast speculation from adjacent properties from the disabled father of their neighbour to a shooting accident when the property was a native forest in the grounds of a manor house.
The coincidence was that on that same day the skull was found a man loitered on our driveway prodding our soil. After a minute I interjected – I thought he’d lost his watch or money.
He said he had previously owned our property and had put all the plants in our garden – some 30 years previously. He was prodding the ground because there was one plant he had filled the front garden with. I don’t know the name now but at the time we moved in my wife removed it entirely wearing double-layer gloves she then burnt it. She said it was highly toxic (rhizomes) and our garden was full of it.
I pretended ignorance to Mr Prodder and looked confused as to why he wanted to travel half-way across Britain to prod our garden. Like he had come to collect a specimen he wanted for his own garden or he had heard the news about the skull and wanted to check whether his crime could be discovered.
@JS
YOU can get more insights into Aussie land from Spotter than any other writer. I spend ages following up a thread. Like Zane F’ing Grey.
He has the kid showing off walking through Camperdown saying he’s Zane Grey. I mean that takes some research from this side of the next century and planet to figger out. Of course for an elderly Aussie like yourself your dad will have had his cowboy books while your mother will have the one prisitine copy of the Australian that she bought once. For a child Zane Grey will be the cowboy in his book not thinking it’s the author.
But back to the plot, Zane was a famous writer who turned up in Aussieland demanding government privileges like some celebrity wanting only red smarties in the dish in his backstage room. He wanted free fishing boats because he was a fishing celeb.
In 1926 some journo understood the fake legend…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193875753?searchTerm=%22zane%20grey%22
But most adults and children bought into the fakery hook line and sinker.
Old Webby Spotter understood the audience and made the kid the object of ridicule knowing you don’t attack the heroes.
But in terms of your sudden religious pronouncement that AI is evil it’s a bit like the view of the ant having his head chopped off by the garden strimmer.
Corinthians [summat] “…the old has gone, the new is here” – probably a lot of hath in the original. My dad the vicar would be so pleased I got AI to find that.
I’m waiting for AI Trove and then we will be able to see the black magic sourcery of the deep search asking AI Trove to find say all refs to “Carl Webb” linked to a bakery. I’m assuming all text gets re-scanned properly or some AI Trove volunteer starts work and wastes 1 second per page fixing them.
Finding an analogy of how AI works is extremely hard but my best so far is that it’s like dust pooling on a surface and we see a shape and the more we look at the shape we decide it’s the face of a man or a bird. MS Copilot settles on that dust analogy when it draws a picture. We watch the dust swirl and the image appears.
But like your biblical God “All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust” in Eccles..thingy.
My dad was the AI of the bible. His brain could seek out and destroy he unbeliever with a quote. Except he lost his male children like Job. Most metaphorically from the church. The loss of the real one made him challenge his whole being, purpose and belief.
For me, I am going about my father’s work spreading the good AI news.
P.S. J.s.
I have asked Trove to catalog my endeavors on the PG. If Nield can write on the PG and have a whole section i think I deserve an A4. History needs to be rewritten for/by the losers for once.
Carl Webb (the SM) was a loser who in another place would have been a hero. Even if Judith Thornley had liked him he would have been unhappy seeing through the crap of the peerage-laden clap-trap just like Dorothy was caught up in.
Perhaps his SM code will turn out to be a work of genius or a shopping list.
David Morgan,
Forget the foot problems shall we, I’m still finding it difficult to fathom your latest FB assertion re “…..(Spotter’s) massive interest in poetry (that) leads to a potential Carl Webb (ID)”. Seems we’re still waiting to see evidence of any poetry attributable to Carl Webb who, according to initial FB reports, was somewhat of a Colonial Poet Lauriate. In fact all we’ve come across is his signature on a marriage certificate that doesn’t even rhyme.
@ David – Spotter is unlikely to be Charlie. Whoever they were, they were the same age as Roy Webb & in his year at school – ie higher elementary in 1916:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/26092803?searchTerm=Spotter
The article you first posted is one where Spotter réalisés he has left Roy Webb off his list of remembered 1916 classmates.
The conventional timeline has Chârles Webb ensconced at 63 Bromby Street, South Yarra, in 1942.
1940 – Mildura. Odd Spott – “Odd Spotter”
“where brains ought’er be”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269139936?searchTerm=%22odd%20spotter%22
Carl Webb was a Ciphermysteries savant recognising critics have time to critique but no time to do actual research.
1940 Mildura – as Angela said was the place the Robertsons ended up and where Carl Webb likely met Dorothy.
Because Odd Spotter is here in 1940 and looking for his Judith Thornley replacement. Marrying Dorothy 1941. They live in posh Domain road then he takes her down-market to Bromby St while he sells his roadster and stays in the Leura hotel in Camperdown, perhaps 1 night/week.
But then in 1942, Judith’s hubby is dead and Carl’s back in Camperdown looking across the desk at Judith in the Camperdown Chronicle where she talks about his job at the GPO and his odor.
Engineer Carl Webb at the GPO probably true. But he is willing to drop it all with one phone call from Mrs Thornley to help keep the Camperdown Chronicle alive when Edmund is sick.
When Edmund recovers he’s back looking for work in Melbourne.
1943 Edmund is dying/dead and Carl Spotter Webb is back in Camperdown for 11 days reading Mrs Thornley’s post at Gnotuk.
I wonder whether Carl carried the coffin or only Thornleys were allowed?
This is fascinating and again looks like the long lists of names in articles by an autistic Spotter.
But the evocative 1937 title?
“Discovery of woman, dead or alive will solve mystery?”
Mrs Edmund Thornley of Gnotuk Camperdown was there.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/277337572?searchTerm=%22edmund%20thornley%22%2C%20%22dead%22
What happened to the article about the mystery?
Is Carl Webb resorting to click-bait to keep his job?
How does he know all these people were there or does he simply lie and add names?
In the Camperdown Chronicle he lies about his school chums in a long list.
Perhaps he uses lists to fill the void and avoid work.
Reflecting back on the list at Somerton Beach and assuming he’s Spotter.
These are people not an acrostic:
WR GO AB ABD
WTB IMP AN ETP
ML IAB OA IA QC
IT TM TS AMS TG AB
or
WRG OAB ABD etc
He may be saying who he sees i.e. Spotter spots people walking by on the beach.
WR could be say William Roberts or WRG – William Robert Gould. We may just need to find the names of Somertonians/others that match the people on the beach that day who walk by in that sequence (or at least in his mind).
Carl Webb Spotter is people-spotting on the Somerton beach as if he was going to write an article about a day on the beach with his usual long lists of names.
Some autistic people write down car number plates. Carl Webb “spots” people.
The ideal person to solve such a name jumble is our very own JS who will know who was where and when in Somerton 1948.
Alternatively, If you study Spotter’s articles all the names could be there if it his drug-fueled trip down Camperdown memory lane. But then no JT = Judith Thornley?
There are so many clues to Carl Webb in the Spotter articles I may decide to collect all his writing together into the collective works of Carl Webb.
One clue Tait the chemist – why does he reference Tait the chemist in Camperdown?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243415164?searchTerm=%22douglas%20c.%20tait%22%2C%20%22chemist%22
Because:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28324655?searchTerm=%22douglas%20c.%20tait%22%2C%20%22camperdown%22
But how does he know all these people’s faces and then knows so much about their business. Sometimes the spread of his vast research must be mindboggling to the locals and they must be thinking “who the eff is Tait the chemist who mines coal?”
When they know it’s Gomer Sidney Elliot who is in the back of his car with his pants down:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75890430?searchTerm=%22chemist%22%2C%20%22camperdown%22
Did Carl Webb miss Elliot in May 1942 or is Spotter working two shifts?
Gomer Sydney Elliot the 1942 cheating chemist of Camperdown was jailed for non-payment so how come Charlie Webb got away without paying his £1 and 10s?
And Dorothy didn’t care.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/271983995?searchTerm=%22gomer%20elliot%22
How come Spotter wasn’t all over this story?
Did Carl encourage Tait his wealthy local Melbourne chemist to take a look at the Camperdown shop with an idea of a buy-out of Gomer?
Re Margaret Phillips cont. from 12/4/24: in that I’ve figured what became of her following loss of most of her kith & kin to illness and misadventure over a ten year period. Turns out she married into a branch of the well to do Crawford-Cudmore dynasty and went off to live on the farm at Naracoorte, passing in 1993 long after Basil (1960). Little wonder no one came forward to ID the beach body in ’48, had it been her older brother G. Phillips that is, including mother Nora who, just for the record, by 1948 was living up country west of Stirling in fine style no doubt.
Still trying to come to terms with how ‘rotter’ Gomer Sidney Elliot [sic] fits with SM and “Spotter” Webb. As an aside to his cheating on Mabel seems he didn’t stop at that, there be further mention of convivial relations with Ivy E., Theresa Mary and Miss White.
Just a fabulous coincidence by the Loiterer – my other literary Carl Webb suspect:
Jesting Dominies
https://imgur.com/gallery/those-jesting-dominies-by-loiterer-aka-carl-webb-aka-1948-somerton-man-z84Qvgc
Didn’t Jestyn say it was a humorous play on her name?
Everything the Spotter or The Loiterer says in humor can take a day of research.
Dominies = School masters
Jesting dominies = joking teachers.
The day of research would be finding the context and the court case.
In the same article, he looks at the age difference of 11 years between 2 actors who were lovers and we know the age gap between Carl and Dorothy was about 15 years.
He says ‘one versifier is plenty for any circle’ referencing Browning-Barrett or is he referencing Carl and Dorothy since the actors were not poets?
Some unexpected good news in that, should there be need for Phillips/Walker DNA at some point in time, I have traced potential live donors for testing in the form of Margaret Jean Crawford’s sons, daughters plus grand children all of Phillips linage.
@js
Spotter was in the Leura with Tait the Melbourne chemist and never spots Elliot with his pants down. Yet he sees everything else in Camperdown. He’s up to something.
I am also tracking The Loiterer who lives in Melbourne around the 1940s. There is a brief imitation in the 1950s who doesn’t last long.
For example, he knows about Benzedrine and German soldiers:
https://imgur.com/gallery/loiterer-on-german-soldiers-using-stimulants-LuXiJpB
But also Wodehouse.
He knows about Benoulli and Boomerangs from Scientific American in 1927.
Who exactly has that system of perfect recall of Scientific American from 1927 when writing in the 1940s?
And how could he possibly know about Benzedrine and German soldiers taking pep pills – word on the Aussie Street?
This is not a normal level of journalistic article in the Sun Pictorial and it exactly matches the type of dialogue of Spotter in Camperdown in 1942.
He talks about the original fees paid to Lords, about women swallowing eggs in shells to appear pregnant. Poetry, science, art, music, statistics.
I mean c’mon what sort of journalist is this who likely also appears as Spotter?
Some sort of person with a vast library of knowledge that spans back to 1915?
Spotter returns to Melbourne by train in 1943.
Therefore I think it is safe to say Spotter = The Loiterer.
Who uses ‘Jesting dominies’ for teachers who tell jokes?
I mean c’mon it’s almost Shakespeare working for the Sun News Pictorial and the Camperdown Chronicle.
@Js
Even AI thinks Spotter = Carl Webb.
https://imgur.com/gallery/deductions-by-ai-from-factual-statements-about-carl-webb-spotter-somerton-man-period-1917-to-1948-beyond-6Jvt3mA
Therefore if Spotter = Carl Webb it is likely Loiterer who lives in Melbourne late 1930s to 1940s was also Carl Webb.
Then if Abbott says Carl Webb = Somerton Man
We have Somerton Man = Carl Webb = Spotter = The Loiterer
An intellectual guy who spans poetry, science, music, art, history, statistics, ornithology (he knows a lot about birds), theatre, films (even silent) and has perfect recall spanning back to 1915.
Who founded the Sun News Pictorial – it might be worth checking he wasn’t the owner! Since he gets such a prominent role in the newspaper and knows EA Thornley (if Spotter). Judith Thornley is often featured in the Australian. I think when daddy was sick she was sub-editor and Carl was overseing her work – like a newspaper owner. Who creates his own fictional tension between them.
He even remembers faces and names.
Which could be his SM code seeing faces on the beach.
I have asked a UK prof about using his software to check writing styles. He determined JKR was writing crime books as a man analysing styles. We can see whether science says Spotter = The Loiterer.
I think ‘somewhere the birds of Carl Webb are singing evermore’ – i.e. he has an identity as a poet/writer in some Aussie book(s).
@JS
The implication is Carl Webb believes Dorothy tricked him into marrying her saying she was pregnant and she seems to be repeating it with Lockyer.
He moves quickly from Domain road to Bromby st. Perhaps he drops her off there and stays in hotels when he finds out it’s a lie that she’s pregnant. Hence why he quickly sells the roadster and shoots off to Camperdown leaving his new bride home alone.
The Loiterer even discusses whether the age gap between lovers matters when he’s 15 years older than Dorothy.
I think Carl Webb’s social level is Tait the wealthy chemist, Thornley the land owner and possible owner of the Camper Chron.
I suspect his big interest is his ‘own’ Sun News Pictorial that’s why Mrs Thornley called him in when their newspaper the Camper Chron was at threat with EA sick. Carl may have been teaching Judith the editorial ropes to take over but also hoping she might get to like him. He would have dumped Dorothy for Judith.
Normally Spotter and The Loiterer wouldn’t be tolerated – as Spotter says from letter complaints “he is talking down” to the readers.
Perhaps he is talking down as the owner? Normally he would be edited to avoid “jesting dominies” I mean what was the reading age of the Sun NP reader in 1940? In the UK they say around ‘8’ for a Sun reader.
I mean I think I might have a reading age of at least 14 and I had never read the word dominies before and I did Latin in Grammar school. Perhaps we never covered master and slave. Spotter/Loiterer introduces new words and concepts to readers like big things made of plastic and aluminium. Like a whole house made of plastic that pops up in a few hours.
Potentially an original limerick by The Loiterer (Carl Webb) 1941
https://imgur.com/gallery/original-limerick-by-loiterer-carl-webb-pon792f
I forget that young lady of Joppur,
who came a society cropper?
She went to Ostend,
and stayed with a friend,
the rest of the story’s improper,
Death Poetry referenced by Loiterer (Carl Webb?) with nightingales
https://imgur.com/gallery/loiterer-death-poetry-nightingales-by-william-johnson-cory-3ZGSNVx
David “Spotter” Morgan,
AI ‘Alien Interloper’ be remiss in giving a pass to Loiterer’s limp limerick with it’s poor choice of words ie., “Joppur” be meaningless, similarly “Ostend” that could only refer to a coastal town in Belgium, or a district in Clearfield USA known for it’s failed Cuba Libre D’Espania manifesto of 1854, but not to Loiterer’s readership perse.
Judith Thornley at 268 and Carl and Dorothy at 274 possibly owned by mil intel Buesst?
Her husband dead 1941, Carl and dorothy 1941, the Japanese consul interned Dec 1941 after Pearl Harbour 1941.
Then Feb 1942 Spotter (aka Carl) is talking to Judith in the Camperdown Chronicle. Where is the Japanese consul interned supposedly Hawthorn not Gowan Brae owned by Buesst? Perhaps Nitkeeper Carl has him tucked away at Gnotuk?
A long way to go for a chat. Which the Loiterer says the Shah of Iran is annoyed with because he thinks people are saying Cat in French to annoy him as it sounds like Shah. But Chat never…
https://imgur.com/gallery/judith-thornley-of-camperdown-268-husband-dead-1941-carl-dorothy-274-1941-cSw3cFZ
https://imgur.com/gallery/could-dorothy-be-identity-of-judith-thornley-if-they-were-some-aussie-internal-spy-team-carl-language-savant-including-japanese-Y9CvQxp
@js
Domain road 268 posh Judith Thornley and 274 posh Tristam Buesst. So why was pleb nitkeeper pleb Carl Webb and Dorothy needed in the plot?
Butler and cook for Hattori?
Language savant Carl Webb interviewing Hattori about Pearl Harbour – before it happened, perhaps?
Oxonian Buesst has a big library ideal for Carl:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/279260288?searchTerm=%22buesst%22
Was Buesst writing for Spotter/The Loiterer while Carl Webb was just nitkeeping Hattori in Gnotuk not Hawthorn?
If you must know punters, the most likely explanation for delay in the Coroner’s finding be quite simply that neither Des Bray’s Sapol cold case detectives or his forensic team have come up with any new evidence likely to assist him with such determination. I’d hazard a guess that yet another sine die adjornment be not an option this time around and unless something turns up soon it’s bye bye Charlie good ridance. In reality Abbott’s choice of Carl Webb for SM was at best a stab in the dark that turned out to be a (self inflicted) shot in the foot for his FB phonies.
You’ll just have to be patient John.
Perhaps you can sketch the procedure that would be followed in case new evidence is found, to enlighten everyone.
@Lonerangeraus
Such a paralysing marine toxin can be tetrodotoxin or TTX. It is produced by bacteria which ends up in certain marine animals. Although extremely toxic, it has also been suggested to have been used to fake death, for instance in voodoo practices:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrodotoxin
Going back to my plot of Spotter in Camperdown. The Leura hotel (where he stayed) had a fine I think for not dealing with a toxic plant – hemlock. Then there is an article of the mystery yellow plant all along Manifold street that cattle and horses avoid as they know it is toxic.
There may have been plants known about, collected and discussed locally. Especially Mr Robertson as the wealthy guy’s gardener.
a possible picture of Carl Webb when alive – held by the Sun News Pictorial. Accidental? – I suspect not because of the reference at the bottom of the page to a 200-year-old satirist.
“Oh, I could tell you ten thousand things of our mad politics, upon what small circumstances great affairs have turned. But I will go rest my busy head.”
https://imgur.com/gallery/carl-webb-sun-news-pictorial-stock-image-used-accidentally-1951-attempted-to-colorise-v8fPmO9
misquoted by SNP – or other version?
source:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4208/4208-h/4208-h.htm
Calypso: TTX in marine creatures, ie., fugu (toad fish) has been done to death over time on CM. You’ll find plenty @ ‘GC on SM’, ’60 Minutes thread and others, quite recently too. Some preliminary pre comment research can often avoid the monotony of repetition.
DM: disappointed that elderly Somerton born Phillips descendants, cousins Campbell & Hugh haven’t gotten back to me with certain familial information as promised. Not only that but my own attempt to match my Somerton radio dealer G. Phillips with an Irish born George Hugh Somerton Phillips, missed the mark by eight years. What a bummer!
@JS
You have to take the knocks with this type of research but not become a ‘microcode’ convert.
I persisted with Jonathan Swift (aka Jerry Waight) because of so many parallels with Webb (poetry, puzzles, problem relationship(s)).
I have also contacted Jane Champman who wrote about ‘The Aussie’ https://www.academia.edu/17310706/THE_AUSSIE_1918_1931
I am certain Jerry Waight would have been a writer for or an originator of the Aussie.
she also wrote:
Chapman, Jane L., and Daniel Ellin. 2012. “Multi-panel Comic Narratives in Australian First World War
Trench Publications as Citizen Journalism.” Australian Journal of Communication 39 (3): 1–22.
Chapman, Jane L., and Daniel Ellin. 2014. “Dominion Cartoon Satire as Trench Culture Narratives:
Complaints, Endurance and Stoicism.” The Round Table 103 (2): 175–192.
Chapman, Jane L., Daniel Ellin, and Adam Sherif. 2015a. Comics, the Holocaust and Hiroshima.
Basingstoke: Palgrave Pivot.
Chapman, Jane L., Anna Hoyles, Andrew Kerr, and Adam Sherif. 2015b. Comics and the World
Wars: A Cultural Record. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan.
I was looking at the movement of the Webb family …some initial dates:
Movement of the family:
They were in St Arnaud in 1893 (Russell’s birth).
By 1896, they had moved to Dandenong (Freda’s birth).
In 1897, they were in Prahran (Gladys’ birth).
By 1901, they had relocated to Yarraville, where both Doris and Roy were born (1901 and 1904 respectively).
Carl was born in nearby Footscray in 1905.
Freda Webb married Gerald Thomas Keane 1915 - where Camperdown?
Russell marries Amy in Camperdown in 1917
Gladys Webb married Leslie Scott in Camperdown in 1918
Carl Webb, also known as Charles Webb, enrolled at Swinburne Technical College as a 14-year-old in early 1920. He attended the college for two years, from 1920 to 1922. There’s a photograph of Swinburne Technical College’s 1921 under-16 football team that lists a C. Webb, which is believed to be Carl Webb.
Roy Webb married Ruby Gavey in Malvern in 1933.
Carl Webb married Dorothy Jean Robertson living in Windsor, married in Prahran in 1941.
David Morgan . Do reckon Webb walked away with from his home with empty pockets, or might he have had a share of any family or business assets ?
David Morgan: The Age of 12 Jan 1923 reports that Charles Webb of Swinburne Tech. earned himself a mediocre pass (62) for his electricity and magnets, ie., electric motors studies.
@Calypso :- TTX, thanks
Re the current re-revived interest for the bloodstained shirt arch topic:
As a possible means of poison administration, the bloodstained tear, how it was situated, and the other (defensive?) wounds between the knuckles would have needed to be very carefully examined and photographed. However, curiously, it was not even mentioned or reported during the inquests and so we are left with incomplete evidence.
Even though not reported, it is not to say that there was no wound in the neck. A corresponding wound in the neck could have been very thin and undetectable, like a papercut, or dismissed by the pathologist as a shaving wound.
Even at the present, the tear seems to be completely ignored. The bloodstain was found to be on one side only of a tear. This means the stain and tear are inseparable and occurred simultaneously during the same event. An event that pierced the shirt and skin and caused a bloodstain. This only occurs when alive, not to a dead body.
John Sanders points out, without naming an official source, that when found on the beach, the man wore a shirt with a studded loose collar. However, in the notes to the coroner that mention the bloodstained tear there is no mention of what the shirt he examined looked like. Therefore there is no proof that it is another shirt. However, on the pre-bust pictures the body does wear a different tie, so apparently there is some inconsistency with the clothes.
Something that has always intrigued me, is why Lawson was allowed to undress the lower body and even took off his socks to study his well-formed waist, calves and toes when all he had to do was make a mould from the upper part.
Clive Turner: in re re your What branch of the service would a GI with wedge toes, eg., Somerton Man join? US Army Rangers Special Operations Directive would be my guess, “Where (wedge toed) Eagles Dare”.
Providing he toed the line, I presume?
Pity SM didn’t have ‘Webb’ feet as well. Could have have made a name for himself in Water Tansport driving army ducks.
@John what’s up with the Somerton (?) OR St Leonards bus?
There’s the quite plausible scenario that the Henley Beach ticket AND St Leonards ticket were both intended to get to the same location, i.e. in either St Leonards or West Beach, but that the HB ticket was not used for time/urgency reasons. If the HB ticket was indeed first choice, the HB end station will be nearer to the intended location than the St L end station. This leaves a location in West Beach, a residential and recreational area and the airport.
Calypso: Oh boy did we mess that one up; I thought someone might fact check me on the Somerton Beach/St Leonards bus alternates which witness Hall didn’t seem sure about. As for the intended Henley Beach destination and unused ticket all I was able to establish is that on Tuesday 31/11 timetables were not followed (see post) or check on Trove (disruption to 10.50am? service on HB line). End of the day I’m not quite getting your drift about connections to the airport and West Beach but I’ll think it over and get back if something twiggs.
Perhaps he bought the HB train ticket by mistake, in other words he thought the place he was going to visit was nearer to HB, until he was advised otherwise. Interesting though, in that PT lived at HB, about a 10 second walk from the HB station but, that was in 1947.
Clive: If he was that stupid, he weren’t no spy; but had he been then he was a sloppy spy, so likely idjit got what he deserved…but I think not on both counts!
My earlier research makes Prosper’s commercial address cnr. Main & Sussex a mere hop step and leap up to ‘Jetty Road’ terminus, HB station having closed before the war. Wonder if he knew that?
Ok I’ll detail it. When trying to reconstruct what happened on 30th November 1948, there are several travelling points that do not sit right. Main points being the suitcase, and the two tickets leading to Henley Beach and St Leonards.
What not does sit right with the suitcase is that it seemed to have had part of the toiletry set missing, was deposited in the cloak room, and was left at the starting point of both the HB and StL trajectories.
What does not sit right about the HB and StL tickets is, that they are two tickets, that the HB one was not used, and both trajectories at first glance seem to lead to a different direction and away from the suitcase.
I’ve been trying to work out a scenario that can address my concerns.
This scenario could explain what occurred. The suitcase was packed with extreme hurry, leaving part of the toiletry set behind. The plan was to travel with the suitcase by train to a distant destination, for instance Cottesloe, WA. However there was a very urgent change of plans, communicated for instance through telegram or telephone call, and the suitcase was deposited in the cloak room to have the hands free and pick up later.
The closest to the location where Carl W. had to urgently go was near the HB trajectory, so he bought a train ticket to get him there. However for time reasons, e.g. he missed the train or it did not get him there fast enough, he resorted to a bus trip that lead to St. Leonards.
The two trajectories do not necessarily lead to different locations. Assuming that both led to the same intended location can provide a clue to where he intended to go. In between both trajectories lie the suburbs of West Beach and St Leonards. As he did not use the HB ticket, this is likely to have been his first choice, so it would be nearest to his intended location. Which would be West Beach.
Apparently in a big hurry, he would have had to get off the bus in St Leonards and speed towards West Beach. At the time, West Beach was a residential area with a developing airport.
@John thanks, so your suggestion supports that he indeed missed the 10.50am HB train.
@Clive I don’t believe there is reason to assume he was not well acquainted with Adelaide
Re-Pete: your detailing of all relevant facts and fancies to do with the case be a boon to researchers and comes as a breath of fresh air when compared with the irrelevancies currently under discussion. Keep in mind that we dullards be most forgetful and need to be frequently reminded on the essentials such as striped trousers, one way train ticket, death place cock-up, missing code page pic, no hat, cash, luggage stub or fingerprinting thereof &c. Monthly. updates
should suffice if that time frame fits in with your busy schedule.
…forgot matches sucks fake!
Johnno .. I’m only here to help the less fortunate ..
@JS,
I did a check today of all the Isdal Woman podcasts 2024. None of them actually used any REAL facts they had researched themselves. They had nothing new to say. They base their thinking primarily on Tore Osland’s book on spies which was equally bizarre when he had 5000 pages of police evidence and he needed to make it up.
I said to Dennis Zacher Aske’s publisher if they put their 5000 pages on a site they could charge $10 and I could almost guarantee they would have had $200,000 if 1/2 the people who had joined the Facebook Group subscribed. Instead they preferred to make 1 or 2 book sales per annum at a loss.
Ditto – Jerry Feltus could do the same with police files. I doubt the police could take him to court if it is a secure password protected database – only subscribers access.
They are busy making $10 when they could have got $100,000s from actual police files – and only scanning needed to something like a Google drive.
DM: according to to his book forward and afterword Feltus couldn’t find much in the files but a few scraps of paper including one with a phone number or two. I don’t hold much store by a lot of convincing fact based rhetoric coming from a bloke who worked with some of the cops involved (according to him) but each to their own, right Nick, Peter, Christopher, Derek?
Peteb: you may have the cart before the pony. Colleague Misca states that Bob Cowan went to the US in 1940/41 to hook up with a fellow graduate mate from Berkeley who later did periperal work under vetting labor contractors for the Manhattan project 1942/45. Bob’s buddy ???? went on to write the best selling authoritive treatise on crime investigation which is still in print apparently.
Feltus was probably truthing to some extent when he said all he could find in the SM file were scraps of paper. That sure fits Det. Const. L. Brown’s take on Det. Snr. Const. R. L. Leane’s “loose leaf filing” style. It’s no wonder he barely made Sgt. by the time of his retirement; Whereas younger brother Geoffrey, his super in ’49 made it to Acting Commissioner and first head of Interpol. Goes with being a full Colonel in the AIF and two bravery awards, just like their dad in WW1.
@JS the problem for AI if it exists on wiki/repeated by bloggers it is ‘the truth’ used by AI. I have had frequent chats about AI errors which are really human errors. If it accesses transcripts of podcasts then we really are in trouble.
It is common podcast parlance to say “he/she was a spy”. They then find a spy case from another time and place and try to link it into the plot. As if that is proof.
Sounds familiar with the Somerton Man and any other cold case mystery.
One actual East German spy was called “Fake Aud Rigmor” in Norway. The East Germans had found records for war-time Lebensborn kids and then slotted spies in to their identities. I was able to find another image of her which if someone had tracked it they could have found out who she was. Just like the older Roy Webb image.
http://www.feldgrau.net/ [2003]
“Files discovered in the Stasi archives show that a woman agent used Harzendorf’s identity in the 1960s and 1970s to procure Norwegian documents she used while spying in Brussels, Belgium. She is still being sought by unified Germany’s intelligence service, Harzendorf says she was told by authorities in Berlin.”
Like Getrud Helke in East Germany was a match to multiple images of Tamara Bunke with old facial ID software.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-1988-1220-009,_Fl%C3%B6ha,_Gewerkschaftsbibliothek.jpg
JS .. noted
AI’s eternal dill-emma be with IT’s inability to differentiate human factored truth from fiction. So it’s bye bye AI make you? eat humble pie.
Couple ormootixh points following Macka’s reintro of a case of for numero 7 on the Kean??? tie, one that Nick and fellow Carl Webb converts concluded unanamously as being connected with Freemason membership, not military issue as had once been the choice. We can agree from the photographic evidence that there were six ties altogether, four seen i the suitcase scattered contents pic, two inside and two on the concrete floor, added to that there’s the striped RAF tie worn by SM on the beach, t’other tartan tie in his later mortuary pose. Six ties be four too many by any gauge, conclusion being four at least were planted by a person or persons having had something to gain from the colour pics taken in a typical family garage setting. To what end? Pretty obvious to me, not so to others it seems, going by my several hints in bygone times to encourage interest at a certain level.
Peteb: Bob Cowan’s Chemist cum criminalist best selling author associate from Berkeley Cal. was Paul Leland Kirk. Check his impresive credentials on Wiki. Also the CM Ruth Balinte thread posts of 20/30 March 2014 are interesting especially those by Peter Bowes who steals Misca and Byron’s thunder with his impromtu “holy grale” sign off exclamation…
The suitcase contents is puzzling indeed, with part of the toiletries missing and as you noted, far too many ties for a regular one time visit week’s wardrobe. Having toiletries missing could be explained by having finished packing the suitcase in great haste, as in an emergency.
But packing a lot of ties is with another intention. Not necessarily planted. I’d say most likely, he was just taking back home some ties that had accumulated on previous visits. It points to occupational travelling. Remember he had also packed a scarf (the suit he wore would probably wrinkle in the suitcase).
Neck ties, especially the thin silk ones be the ideal method for restraining captives, or if deemed applicable strangling them, likewise with a length of
light cord if some happens to be handy. As for the shortage of toiletries, I’m wondering what men in those times needed apart from shaving gear and a tooth brush.
Shaving soap for starters.
I know, just didn’t want to get myself into phrasing something to do about bondage. I think you’re onto it though.
Notwithstanding enticing possibilities re a bondage obsession, owner of the left suitcase also had in addition to aforesaid silk ties, there was also an awsome awray of weaponry in his essential travel kit, ie., pointed and sharpened scissors, the honed utility knife, a cut-throat razor with leather strop, two folding metal coat hangers and a darning needle from memory. Alas no shaving stick or roll-o-rono.
I know. Alas, occupational travelling. I believe the (naval)brush and black powder were his tools of the trade.
However, it can never be proven that these items were used as weaponry. Items could have been used for several purposes. Some nasty things can also be done with a scarf. The knife can for instance be used as an all purpose tool, to sharpen pencils or whatever.
But he also packed a shaving brush, so missing shaving soap and alum still remains curious and supports hastily packing.
So we have a possible weaponry set and a missing toiletries set.
Peteb: thanks for the accolades, I’m beholden and truly humbled, sort of. Down to business; In order for Abbott and Colleen Fitzpatrick to hit on Carl as being their man, they could not have done so unles they had him pegged prior to the T. Keane false lead that they admitted was the defining moment for definitive identification. From there they simply went ahead by reverse engineering through their chosen Keane gene, on to Freda Keane nee Webb, then via familial Morris clan ties thence back through the Morris/Stephens family. Final stop being latter day Stephens in long time FB associate Antoro Bonifacio who’s DNA came up trumps for a match. For the missing link to Tamam Shud and Somerton Man, still missing I’d assume. What’s next?
sorry can’t help you there.
I can’t be bothered to read the to-an-fro with the PB gang…so I asked AI to summarise:
In essence, Sanders and Calypso are implying that the Somerton Man’s suitcase contents suggest he might have been involved in activities beyond those of an ordinary traveler—possibly clandestine, criminal, or related to bondage and restraint. They raise the possibility that evidence was tampered with or planted to mislead investigators, and they hint at a need to look deeper into the implications of the items found with him. Their exchange encourages readers to consider alternative theories about his identity and the circumstances surrounding his death.
So nothing new. The travelling bondage salesman. Hyperbolix.
DM. can’t speak for Calypso but if your AI know it all thinks same she and I be as one in our suitcase contents opinions or beliefs, then it’s got another think coming. Couldn’t be further from the truth; speaking of which, I guess it might be at this point we should assume that Merrill Stephens was the daughter of Norman Francis
(can’t do FS). that she be wife of Antero Snr and mum of Webb link donor Antero Jr. Or is that unsafe speculation in that there’s still the strange case of Adelina Merrily Bonifacio to consider, she having the same DOB as her near namesake but not the same death date (6/8/2014 – 20/8/2021), going by your untitled list of 29th ultimo.
Regarding the assortment of ties in his suitcase, plus the one he was wearing, is it possible that he wore a different tie when he met a particular person? What I’m getting at that is was each tie, and the day he wore it of some significance, either at a meeting or, to warn another individual?
The PB gang ? Dave, mate, the site you are referring to is one of moderate restraint, good humoured repartee and stimulating posts .. something Sanders not only enjoys but contributes to whole-heartedly from time to time .. so why not leave the comfort of CM and come over to the wild side .. though you are best advised to leave AI at the door together with your ego.
If Merrill Stephens (dec. 2021) married Antero Bonifacio (dec. 2008) but died as a Stephens, suggests either divorce or reverting to her birth name for some reason. All indications are that her daughter, FB Antero Bonifacio Jr’s presumed mother Adelina Merrily hung onto her birth name and raised Junior as a single mother. If I’m correct, (occasionally), then how the heck did Derek & Colleen come up with him for their 4000/1 Webb link with such aplomb? Guess he may just as easily have found them first eh?
Nothing so nefarious Clive. Y’man being an inveterate ‘pie floater’ muncher would surely have needed to wear a fresh ties everyday (except friday RC) to keep up his neat appearance. Recall being told that pies’n ties can’t disguise .. No surprise!
If it means much, Gordon & Olive Stephens had a daughter Merrill who went and married Antero Ong Bonifacio (ref. JS @Carl 1st photo 8/22) a Filippina gent from Davio. Issue in order were Olivian, Patchio, Antero and Julia; plus grand kids Araceli, Sebastian, Zenaida, ‘Antero, Adelina’, Orlando, Sienna, Rayner, Olive and Frankie, and great grand kinder Levi, Isais, Lorenza, jose, Pia and (lbnl) Violetta. Seem they spent a lot of time OS; no entry records but I recall grandad was a sea captain so
maybe they got let off at Renmark…Someone researched Merrill on 17/1/17 @MH.
Clive, in any case the tie he was wearing might well be a clue to whom he was about to meet.
Unless I’m mistaken Derek’s DNA candidate be Antero Miguel Bonifacio, a sole trader’ shop owner of Geelong. There are plenty more Anteros sans Miguel (get it didn’t think so) knocking about down that part of Victoria but only one can take us back through to Merrill Norman Stephens Morris genes. Wondering if anyone did any research was done on y’man’s bonifides when he first came to notice, can’t recall, maybe the FB team didn’t bother, taking Colleen’s word he was a Webb fit. I’m looking at a photo of Antero beside an older caucasian of similar stature who is wearing a Masonic brotherhood badge and I’m wondering who he might be?
@JS
family search link
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/K64V-F8N/gordon-francis-stephens-1917-1987
The thought occurred to me was it has to be an mtDNA link.
He married Olive Joyce Watts 1940
Daughter Merrill 1943 to 2021.
Both sons and daughters inherit their mother’s mtDNA. However, only daughters pass it on to the next generation. This means that while a son carries his mother’s mtDNA, he does not transmit it to his offspring.
Why test male Anteros?
Given this pattern of inheritance (from the family tree): AI says
Antero Bonifacio would not have the mtDNA of Mary Morris.
Lineage Breakdown
Mary Morris (great-great-grandmother)
Francis Stephens (great-grandfather) – inherits approximately 50% of his autosomal DNA from Mary Morris.
Gordon Stephens (grandfather) – inherits approximately 50% of his autosomal DNA from Francis, which includes about 25% from Mary Morris (50% of 50%).
Merrill Stephens (mother) – inherits approximately 50% of her autosomal DNA from Gordon, which includes about 12.5% from Mary Morris (50% of 25%).
Antero Bonifacio (son) – inherits approximately 50% of his autosomal DNA from Merrill, which includes about 6.25% from Mary Morris (50% of 12.5%).
Conclusion
Thus, Antero Bonifacio would inherit approximately 6.25% of his autosomal DNA from Mary Morris. This percentage reflects the cumulative effect of autosomal DNA inheritance across generations, where each generation receives about half of the DNA from their parents.
Result of Testing: If you extracted and sequenced mtDNA from Mary Morris, it would match with her direct female descendants (like her daughters or granddaughters) but not with Antero Bonifacio, as he does not inherit mtDNA from Mary Morris.
In summary, if you had hair from Charles Webb, you could use mtDNA analysis to match it with both Eliza Morris and Mary Morris. Antero Bonifacio, however, would not have a match with Mary Morris’s mtDNA due to the nature of mtDNA inheritance, as he does not inherit it from her.
I’ve always thought the tie was most likely to have been an Airforce (GB/Aust) mess dress job with its reverse stripes. If it makes sense to your reasoning behind the tie being a clue to a meeting, one person present on the beach and who saw SM was a highly decorated military man. Arthur (Mert) Lee was a well known racing identity whos horse won the Melbourne cup, and besides his Hotel Association & National RSL Presidencies, was also a proponent for youth migration from GB being close to Arthur Caldwell in Canberra. And by the way, on the day Sir Arthur was first away on the day and played no part in the investigation; As for SM’s arse about tie, it was never seen again after day one.
JS/Calypso: It was just a thought about the ties, I guess if he had been found dead in Bangkok, the mystery would have been pretty well Thai-ed up by now?
…as for twin Grace sisters Annie and poor baby Alice who didn’t see her first birthday, their mother Amelia Morris nee Bailey, would have been forty and beyond child baring age for those times, one might be forgiven to venture.
Llama AI says:
A great-great grandchild is expected to inherit about 6.25% of their ancestor’s autosomal DNA, as you mentioned. However, a parallel great-great cousin would inherit a much smaller percentage of their ancestor’s autosomal DNA.
To understand why, let’s break down the inheritance pattern of autosomal DNA:
A parent passes on approximately 50% of their autosomal DNA to each child.
A grandparent passes on approximately 25% of their autosomal DNA to each grandchild.
A great-grandparent passes on approximately 12.5% of their autosomal DNA to each great-grandchild.
A great-great grandparent passes on approximately 6.25% of their autosomal DNA to each great-great grandchild.
Now, let’s consider a parallel great-great cousin. A parallel cousin is a cousin who shares the same set of great-great grandparents, but not the same set of great grandparents. In other words, a parallel great-great cousin is the child of a sibling of one of your great-great grandparents.
Since a parallel great-great cousin shares only one set of great-great grandparents with you, they would inherit only half of the autosomal DNA that you would inherit from those great-great grandparents. Therefore, a parallel great-great cousin would inherit approximately 3.125% of their ancestor’s autosomal DNA (half of 6.25%).
So, to summarize:
A great-great grandchild inherits approximately 6.25% of their ancestor’s autosomal DNA.
A parallel great-great cousin inherits approximately 3.125% of their ancestor’s autosomal DNA.
Keep in mind that these are rough estimates, and the actual amount of autosomal DNA inherited can vary significantly due to the random nature of DNA inheritance.
Llama…
Here is an example of what you might see in a genetic genealogy report for a 3% match:
Common ancestors: John Smith (b. 1800) and Mary Johnson (b. 1805)
Shared DNA segments: 10 segments on chromosomes 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19
Chromosome mapping: Chromosomes 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 inherited from John Smith and Mary Johnson
Genealogical connections: Smith and Johnson families in the United States, particularly in the Northeast region
Predicted relationships: 2nd cousin or 2nd cousin once removed
DM: The Morris name within the family doesn’t come up all that frequently apart references to it’s Abbott tie in with the genetically essential Mary Stephens branch along with the dubious implant of Eliza Grace to support Carl Webb’s transposition. In fact it seems improbable that Amelia Morris nee Foden/Bailey was ever married to the absentee Scot John Morris who must have fathered some of her children eg. Mary Stepbens. Reliable records suggesting she gave birth to at least two under the Foden or Bailey title. From 1870 onwards, after taking up with Jimmy Grace, all the offspring including Eliza Webb went under that moniker, Amelia herself taking it to
the grave in 1897. When Annie Elizabeth Grace passed in 1929 at Springwood, the death notice only mentioned beloved sister of Mrs. Webb (Springvale), Robert (Werribee) and Mrs. Stephens (Kew).
No surprise that we mere mortals be not privy to background of FB Abbott’s gene keeper of Geeloong, Antero Miguel Bonifacio. It’s most unlikely the Gene they’re most Keane on could not have been passed down from Antero’s mum, she not being of all essential matriarchal Stephens descent. Matters little anyway, now that the cat’s out of the bag as to who he isn’t, namely first cousin twice removed SM imposter Carl Webb.
Dm: It’s even worse than your calculations suggest NB: My list of Merril’s family in marching order per 7th inst. 7.27am refers to Antero (Jr.) and Adalina (Merrily) as her grand childer). PS: Geoffrey Hinton’s great aunt Lillian who once owned the hard to read Voynich Manuscript just became recipient of the 2024 Nobel Prize for Physics. Such a shame he has not come clean on aunt lil’s role in it’s fabrication.
Q: When is the Mary Jane (Morris) Stephens of Bendigo (1860 – 1932) maybe not?
A: When she’s Mary Jane (Watson) Stephens of Bendigo (1860 – 1932) that’s when.
Might put a new light on what Carl Webb fans have been conditioned to believing.
Someone in touch might think to ask the the family tree compiler to ratify details.
Don’t take my word for it. Francis Dyer Stephens 1888-1918 had him a brother Roy Anthony 1890-1928 who was interred (see pic) with his pre deceased. mother Mary Jane Stephens nee Watson sans Morris. Sure to be more compelling evidence to affirm there be no Grace/Morris blood coursing through Antoro Bonifacio’s veins.
J. Press men’s clothier shop from New York had a very similar one, The Beaufort Knot repp silk tie:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186665212229?itmmeta=01J9Q1DVGSKC5DSFAW0XH757XD&hash=item2b761d1945:g:csoAAOSwjdVm1OHA&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4Mxmj%2BiGvOveHXEBClPb29juq2auai0knQDSVqeAjXxkYi872lOZzg7RmthOulgQAwKNY1beOlkxeZldg0KiVIhAjHH9qG3Ee6uuDPvsAuOHS2CtTV%2FlmWfY981kK%2FdFhKqk6u3LXT%2FpzTTFrQJY0vCwOcSOY8c0JbQzAQdaVpeCb3tQBa9HdBFJz%2FPcoImHsJ2qhifaNPegvTmtVs7v6Lj%2BkwZn29qYzGSsuP%2FjC2P4Pb3xwtaREZTNYOX%2BzGThyMaTfeSs4Sw8%2BVvFNSi%2FFJE%2FFM2B9RzPhaLknJhzRgUl%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7y4t-HNZA
Anyone get onto today’s repeat of Australian Story outlining Antero’s five minutes of fame as missing link to Carl Webb’s SM match, now showing on Derek’s FB site. One thing I had not twigged to earlier be that Mary Jane Stephens is revealed as being Antero’s great great grandmother, probablycorrect, but for one glaring error. The blunder on Derek’s part being that his Mary Jane Stephens, Eliza Webb’s half sister does not identify with another of that name details of whom appear on the Webb family tree web site. Might be noted that of themselves they do come some way to satisfying certain essential elements of the Bonifacio/Stephens DNA link…
Over to you David Morgan.
DM: I’ll let you do the DNA numbers. Permit me to do the equasion and it makes no diffrence which Mary Jane you work with, Mary nee Morris or Mary nee Watson. The First transfer to Francis Dyer Stephens has to be compromised due to a half sister relationship with Carl Webb’s mum Eliza Grace. From there we go to Frank’s son
Norman FrancisGordon, thence on toNorman’sGordon’s daughter Merrill Bonifacio then to another unknown but certainly male Bonifacio and finally to Derek’s end of the chain key link Antero Miguel Bonifacio. What can you make of them apples mugger.@JS
It is impossible for Antero to have mtDNA of Webb unless some complex plot of the child of a female Ilsa Spencer (I forget her name) and a family member.
We still don’t know how they had autosomal DNA to match with Antero – assuming that he really was a Webb match.
We have two lies – the source of the autosomal DNA and how Antero is related to the Webbs ?if adopted.
But with all the dodgy lies I still think the result is correct – that Carl/Charles Webb is the Somerton Man – simply because of facial ID.
Two wrongs made a right or a Webb.
My argument is about the path to the truth. They say Ohm cheated to get Ohms law making fictitious results of voltage v current.
I switched my interest ‘this week’ to try to make progress with 2 faces in the Identify me project by Interpol. I tried to use facial ID but the two who were found with identifiable bodies they modified, They added an open eye on one.
One had a Hebrew tattoo, the other although does not face-match potentially was a Saudi journalist who is labelled online as missing. Though a trail exists which fully disproves my theory.
But let’s say I found their doppelgangers – not the real person.
I contacted a tattoo specialist who said it was a generic tattoo – you could create from downloading Hebrew text in Word.
By pure chance I was in contact with two Jewish journalists – the one who sent me the interpol link and another from the BBC who was scouting for people for a Points of View ~ Zoom meeting. I declined. But she agreed to read my crime mystery plots.
But I pulled out the Jewish and Saudi one and warned them about pursuing the Saudi one as a journalist. My school chum had sent a joke Xmas message from Saudi and changed his whole life when he realised his drunken mistake. He stopped his executive lifestyle and became an invisible taxi driver. He still is.
Based on very little evidence apart from my Mary (Watson) Stephen’s writng and verbage plus her son Alan’s spelling, it wouldn’t surprise to learn that she was of American origins. If it means anything there seem to be a smattering of the name ‘Dyer Stephens’ drifting around gold field towns like Eaglehawk in the rush years 1851 to ’60 and also seems to be quite prevalent in states of Tennessee & Georgia.
Mustn’t forget, there was a Mary Jane Stephens with a son Clarence Roy living at Ballan Vic. circa.1900. Could she be our missing Mary Jane Morris/Stephens? I note there was a Const. Stephens at Ballan in 1906 and some may recall a Sgt Stephens was police prosecutor at Kew after WW1 (see the Annie Grace death notice 1929 ). There’s a dozen more Mary Jane Stephens to choose from in Victorian FAG records, wondering has the absent minded Professor vetted them yet?
Peteb: Then how’s about you show me something definitive about rampant abuse being carried out at Somerton Crippled Childrens home. I’m quite familiar with the the happenings at certain state run and church institutions like those you’ve put up for my personal benefit. I might add that I’ve had dealings with some of bad repute in a past capacity, so I don’t need to be reminded or lectured to by you or anyone!
DM: I may have found a clue as to how Derek made his mistake of linking Antero Bonifacio to the wrong Stephens clan as has been suggested. As it turns out I think we’ll find that Mary Jane Stephens nee Morris was born in !867 and not !860 as was namesake Mary Jane Stephens nee Watson. If that turns out to be the answer, how do we explain how the error wasn’t picked up by reverse engineering of the donor DNA rootless bust hair sample comparison? Beats me, maybe Peteb can come up with something simple that makes sense of it all.
DM: I presume you based your non DNA compliance case against Antero Miguel Jr. on my earlier assessment that he was likely to have been first cousin to Carl Webb thrice removed, not twice as proposed by DA, which whilst being even more telling will be ridiculec by the FB dupes out of hand. My conclusions are calculated on the presumtion that our man looks no more than forty which would puts him over the mark for being the product of a Merrill and Antero Ong Bonifacio union. As for the chance of mysterious Adelina Merrily being his mother, that could only have come about through cousin to cousin copulation according to my calculations, but I’m
not suggesting that in the interests of discretion…You right with that Peteb?
DM: Notwithstanding that on my own revised current assessment Carl Webb be no longer part of the equasion and Antero Bonifacio’s genetic roots as such would be with aforementionrd Watson/Stephens line, of itself unrelated to the Morris/Grace imposters that were the flawed basis for the Abbott/Fitzpatrick deception. Tamam?
Peteb: Apologies accepted as usual; and yes I do understand your need for having to remove any embarassing comments; So as to forstall any reputational damage to a well deserved SM site ranking score of 4th place for Tomsbytwo from memory.
I don’t know how much more digging needs to be done before skeptics might be convinced that my Lancashire lass beats her Glaswegian namesake counterpart to top of the Stephans lineage heap. Not for certain but seems Mary Jane Stephens was the daughter of John Watson 1822/1882, a well known mine engineer out of Galgate Lancashire who came to Bendigo in the gold rush of 1852. She seems to have been second of three children whose mother Elizabeth was killed in a tragic mine accident in 1863, her parents now at rest as one beneath a massive phallic symbol in the Bendigo general cemetery. Any punters Keane probing deeper for the truth should be aware that John married Margaret Elizabeth Morton in 1870 and two issue were begat from that union. For those visiting the cemetery don’t forget to also pay respects to Mary who sleeps with son Roy in an appropriately marked but much less glamorous grave in a more subdued section of the same cemetery.
4th place is fine by me JS, given the reputation of the judge.
Peteb: this is what was said in the final cut at Tbt and posted as such. How then did you come up with the initial unsent draft?
Hear tell the G…. P…. Pulled himself through the bars, (dumped) offed his ankle bracelet before crashing our Somerton Beach party, right at the tail end of our discussion concerning alleged activities of some bad ass “Dude”s connected to Sister Kenny’s Infantile Paralysis Recovery Unit at Alvington House,Somerton. Perhaps our dud has fond memories he’d like to share with us in private about his wonderful interlude ain Boys Town S.A. like to tell us how you pulled that cunning stunt?
Q: “Is Webb a contender or not?” (from Peteb at Tbt).
A: Not going by anthing Abbott has done with flawed DNA. Lots of poor blighters went missing in the post WW2 scramble for work. He could have jagged Carl Webb from the hundreds of shiftless itinerants that ended up in Adelaide about that time.
DA’s “incestral” back tracking from Eliza Webb’s half sister Mary Jane Stephens to a current descendant Antero Bonifacio has him linked to the wrong family. All thanks to GC’s PeteDavo who set up the Webb geni site so that our “A” team might obtain their flawed information and enable BS/TS to stay ahead of the game.. D.M’s easy to swallow breakdown gives Anterio only .001 chance in hell of being merely an innocent bystander…Courtessy Tbt 10th ultimo
Very interesting comment by Pete Dave on Cramer’s site .. seems Doctor B. Bennett and Carl Webb were related.
John Watson, lucky fellow, just so happens to be sharing hís grave and it’s twenty foot phallic memorial spire with both dear wives. Didn’t spot Margaret E. Watson on the outer name plate facade and so I can now confirm that she passed in 1887.
A caution to alternate SM blog users that fourth rate hackers may be editing your unposted drafts without approval for self gain.
Peteb: lt was real interesting back about July/August 2022 when the news broke right here. Actually Dr. John Barkley Bennett was a second cousin to Dorothy from memory. Maybe you were on extended leave or something cause it’s had a pretty fair coverage ever since.
Important breakthrough of sorts found by chance in CM archives in searching for my (well spotted) familial links between Dr. John Bennett and Dorothy Robertson. I happened upon a rather intriguing post from a most unexpected source that both predates and supports my ceaseless efforts to have the flawed Abbott & Fitzgerald DNA claims of links to Charlie Webb through an ancestral Morris/Stephens gene debunked due to lack of due diligence in vetting and a little deceipt. If only we’d picked up on the decisive meaning of the unanswered post by Peter Davidson, the Webb farce might have been nipped in the bud then and there, with FB disturbing elements recalled before they did any real harm. With reference to the following, the PD edited Geni information four months hence follows the erronous Abbott FB line.
Carl Webb’s 1st cousin died at Gallipolli @ https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/719214/alan-stephens/ …..His aunt’s boy
As a consequence of unfortunate mix up between the two Mary’s I think we’ll find that much the same applies with listings of offspring between proven unrelated Stephens clans. Based on Trove sources Mary nee Watson and Anthony Stephens begat Gordon Alan, Roy, Arthur, Reg, Walter, Thomas, Joseph, Matthew and two girls Amelia and Sarah. As for PeteDavo’s additions in Gerald, Stanley and Charles, we might take a punt and tag them as being part of Mary Stephens nee Morris tribe.
While it’s still fresh, seems Bob Grace passed in 1887, so Amelia Morris (Bailey) and the Grace kids uprooted from their modest diggers shanty near the St. Arnauds workings and moved to the big smoke where they took up workers lodgings near the old Footscray markets at Yarraville. She died in 1897 as Morris and after WW1 son Bob Henry Grace bought a shop in Werribee which was taken over by Bob III after his dad passed in 1943. Hope I haven’t doubled up on this now irrelevant bit of the wrong Morris family history.
Not at all sure that Amelia remained in the city, until her dieing day as she was laid to rest in Bendigo, and it might be significant that her partner Bob Grace ended his days in St Arnaud where the family were raised. Who knows how long they spent together, maybe Helen Cass or one of Derek’s FB girls has more information.
Adding to my last, seems probable based on known factors eg., Dick Webb’s gaol time for the rap at St Arnauds 1893/94, that he and Eliza must have lived with the Grace family there, then moved in with them again later at Yarraville during which period Roy and Carl were born. Still trying to convince folks that the Morris/Grace survivors were well settled in far off Melbourne by the time Francis Dyer and Alice Stephens were raising children at Eaglehawk along with Mary Jane Stephens nee Watson bn. 1860, none of them having familial links with Mary Jane Stephens nee Morris bn. 1867. Anyone have a problem with them apples say your piece!
My dear John – you have added so many twigs and branches to the family trees. The Latter Day Saints must be tying themselves in knots trying to follow the threads of these narratives. And now you take us to be Adam, tempting us readers with apples! But I have already eaten today, at the Fisherman’s Cooperative.
Way too much for a mere delivery driver to digest Peter, but there be others of sharper intellect that may get a better grasp of said twigs and branches such as they are. Hoping you enjoyed your repast of fish and chips at the co op Peter. Oh for the simple pleasures in life, hey what?
Unlike your old flame (?) Ruth @ Xlamb Peter, I don’t have too many deep seated problems with our absent minded professor, the truth be known I’ve never met or had words with the man online or verbally. If only he would fess to his flawed SM identity and apologise for all the barriers he’s put in place to cover his Webb of deception, though I doubt that will occur any time soon. By my calculations Abbott and his FB cohorts owe me for two years of my time; time for which I’d think he might be deserving of a similar stretch in the Yatala big house just 25 km from X marks the spot.
Could this then have been prof Abbott’s missing Carl Webb the original and best, as reported in Townsville Daily Bulletin 31st November, 1948. How could Tbt’s Barry Traish and TS on liners have missed this gem.
Police still haven’t solved the identity of the body found on the Somerton (South Australia) beach on September 1. The embalmed body is still being kept in a special freezing chamber in the Adelaide morgue.
If I gave 31/11/1948 for the above trove item than I lied, it having been 31/12/48 (no 31 November). That being the case, then the item covering the 1 September body may itself have been a mistake in which case nothing changes and Charlie l to died elsewhere, maybe during a hike in bushland up Monbulk way months earlier.
John Sanders: So I take it that you’re claiming one or more of:
* the 1885 marriage certificate for Mary Jane Morris & Anthony George Stephens (https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/67197a9ff00978156a56b7a3/record/5c65532e4aba80ac3128abee?q=efamily&givenName=Mary%20Jane&familyName=MORRIS) isn’t for “the right” Anthony George Stephens and/or “the right” Mary Jane Morris,
* and/or the Mary Jane Morris he married isn’t the same Mary Jane Morris listed in an 1860 birth certificate as the child of John Wilson and Amelia Bailey (https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/67197a9ff00978156a56b7a3/record/5c6542994aba80ac313f09f5?q=efamily&givenName=Mary%20Jane&familyName=MORRIS),
* and/or the Eliza Morris whose 1872 birth certificate lists her as the child of John Wilson and Amelia Bailey (https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/67197a9ff00978156a56b7a3/record/5c6542994aba80ac313f082f?q=efamily&givenName=Eliza&familyName=MORRIS) [note this appears to have been a delayed registration, as her DOB is given as 19 Nov 1871 in the family tree entry for her at https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/about/LR91-PWL — if her father died on 23 July 1871 she could still be Mary Jane’s full sibling] isn’t the Eliza Morris who married Richard Webb?
I don’t really have skin in the Somerton Man game, so I’m not inclined to blow the money on scanned images of the records.
By the way, you can’t logically conclude that because Roy Stephens’ burial plot has a marker saying “Our mother M. J. Stephens and brother Roy” that the mother pre-deceased the brother…
Karl: Sorry but your links don’t show due to internal issues with Vic PROV records. Guess I can get the guist of what your saying which seems in order. Just so long as there be no conflict as to the factual basis upon which Watson/Stephens/Bonifacio lineage overides Webb-Grace/Morris/Stephens line does not share DNA with the FB nominee Antero Bonifacio. Not sure of what you’re implying re the “M. J. Stephens and our brother Roy” markers at Bendigo, FAG records confirming Roy Stephens (1928) most certainly pre deceased his mother Mary Jane Stephens nee Wilson (1932)…PS: Be nice to know the skinny on you and a lityle on your background as a matter of first site visit courtesy.
Karl: All’s fine, knowing who you are and what your preferred CM subject be. As you insist, no skin of your nose when it comes to “the Somerton Man game”. Kind of you to swing by and to have your say on prospects for Charles Webb’s future ie., “To be or not to be”…
Thank you Karl for your excellent pruning of Mr Sanders complicated assertions on these family trees. In the absence of Pat this task was beyond many of us. If you wish to blow money there are many good menus I could suggest. We are getting very hungry down here waiting for official reports of this poor man’s identity. Meanwhile, those who can decode de code are in abeyance.
Karl,
Still no with luck with your Vic. PROV links but going by your preamble it’s just as well. For starters your Mary Jane Morris bn.1868 married John Stephens and the couple had three sons before she was widowed pre WW1. Whereas my Mary Jane Watson (1860/1932) was married to Anthony George Stephens (1858/1939) and of their three sons, two died in the war. She became dependent on surviving son Roy due to the bum having deserted her pre war, Anthony passing at Eaglehawk as did both Mary and Roy, where they were born, something my detracters might keep in mind. In the case of Abbott’s flawed DNA link Mary Jane Strephens nee Morris, her later life is somewhat of a mistery, she likely moved from Ballarat to Melbourne some time after mum Amelia passed in 1897 and was living at Kew in 1929 by the time her sister Annie died. In that the main Melbourne mental asylum was also at Kew back then, could it be that she was an inmate and remained, who knows? Vic PROV?
NB: for informaion of Pat, Amelia Grace’s grave details ca be found at Ballarat FAG.
PDD dud: Could be your last last chance to go with the weight of evidence I’ve put up to thwart Abbott’s Bonifacio/Stephens backtracking lineage via Mary Morris to Carl Webb’s mum which doesn’t gel.
Karl: Looks like you have attracted a fan base at Tbt which may be expected from a committed band of Carl Webb/SM diehards who prefer to spend their down time here than in Tbt nowhere land…Something that you might find to be of relevance relates to your Mary Jane Stephens’ son Clarence Roy who in some earlier posts could have been confused with “our brother Roy” who’s marker appears at the foot of M. J. Stephens’ grave at Bendigo.
…Amelia Grace is interred in the C of E section of St. Arnaud cemetery as is her husband Robert, though not together and that be a sad fact of life in the goldfields.
John,
Sorry for problems with the links — I opened them in a different tab to test, but there may have been some sort of session/cookie issue with using them elsewhere. As I’m sure you know, the search portal is at https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history. The registration number for the Mary Jane Morris (dau. of John Wilson & Amelia Bailey) birth certificate is 15728/1860. The registration number for the Eliza Morris (dau. of John Wilson & Amelia Bailey) birth certificate is 4582 / 1872. The registration number for the Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Morris marriage certificate is 4352/1885.
Re: “Not sure of what you’re implying re the ‘M. J. Stephens and our brother Roy’ markers at Bendigo, FAG records confirming Roy Stephens (1928) most certainly pre deceased his mother Mary Jane Stephens nee Wilson (1932)…” — I was probably confused by your Oct. 9 comment that “Francis Dyer Stephens 1888-1918 had him a brother Roy Anthony 1890-1928 who was interred (see pic) with his pre deceased. mother Mary Jane Stephens nee Watson sans Morris.”
Re: “For starters your Mary Jane Morris bn.1868 married John Stephens and the couple had three sons before she was widowed pre WW1.” — I’m not sure who the heck Mary Jane Morris b. 1868 was; the Mary Jane Morris who was dau. of John Wilson & Amelia Bailey had her birth registered in 1860.
I think we are in vehement agreement that the relevant Anthony George Stephens
is the Anthony George Stephens who was the son of Francis Dyer and Elizabeth Stephens who died at the age of 80 in Eaglehawk, death registered in 1939 (registration # 16588/1939).
The only Roy Stephens whose death shows up in an online search of the Victoria hatch, match & dispatch records for the period from 1925 to 1935 is…a Roy Stephens (died in Bendigo aged 38, registration year 1928, registration number 8718/1928) whose parent are listed as Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Morris. I wonder how the date of death on that death certificate lines up with the 19 July 1928 date of service listed for the Roy Stephens buried in Monumental P4, Monumental Grave 27794 in the Bendigo cemetery (via search at https://rpcv.byond.pro/deceasedsearch/deceasedsearch.aspx)…
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/719214/alan-stephens/ says that the Alan Stephens who died in Apr. 1915 was 21 years old. The only birth record for an Alan Stephens between 1892 and 1896 that shows up in the online Victoria hatch, match & dispatch search results is…Alan Stephens (registration year 1894, registration number 15746/1894), son of “Anthony Geo” Stephens and Mary Jane Morris.
By the way, Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Morris *also* had a son named Francis Dyer Stephens (registration year 1887, registration number 24026/1887). If that’s not “our” Anthony George Stephens, then I wonder how they pulled *that* name out of a hat for their son…
The only search result that comes up in an online search of the Victoria hatch, match & dispatch records for an Anthony Stephens getting married between 1870 and 1915 is…the marriage certificate for Anthony George Stephens & Mary Jane Morris referenced above. If someone wants to pay Victoria for a scan of the record to see what it has to say about the ages and parents of the happy couple, more power to them.
So it looks like there are three possibilities:
1) There’s some phantom Anthony George Stephens who married a Mary Jane Morris, and gave his sons the same names as the supposed Anthony George Stephens who married a supposed Mary Jane Watson, or
2) All three of the birth registrations for Alan, Francis Dyer, and Roy Stephens (reg #
7840/1890, by the way) and Roy Stephen’s death registration all got the mother’s maiden name wrong, or
3) The informant on Mary Jane Stephen’s death certificate (died at Bendingo aged 71, registration year 1932, registration number 405/1932) got the first names of her parents (John & Amelia) right, but got the last names wrong (and/or there were serious problems reading the handwriting on the death certificate…)
I think option #3 is a lot more likely than option #2, and infinitely more likely than option #1. Your mileage obviously varies. Others can make up their minds as they see fit. Other than the info on the death certificate, what other primary sources document the existence of the supposed Mary Jane Watson? Where is her birth certificate? Where is the marriage certificate for her marriage to Anthony George Stephens?
Oh, by the way, here’s something interesting: there’s a birth registration for a Morris Stephens (registration year 1891, reg # 37285/1891), son of “Anty Geo” Stephens and Mary Jane Morris — and there’s a death registration for Morris Stephens (died age 62, registration year 1953, reg # 22486/1953), son of Anthony Stephens and Mary Jane Grace Morris, so “Grace” is also associated with that Mary Jane Morris…
I have been busy with AI trying to develop things. The New Claude 3.5 Sonnet came out yesterday but before that Perplexity/O1 Preview were as good.
I had the idea of family webs:
https://binreminded.medium.com/why-family-trees-are-wrong-21daced7c874
The idea would be to add on the real dad/parents of someone who is shown in a traditional family tree.
Just chanced upon a long lost familial link to the ancestral Stephens of Eaglehawk dynasty, namely the families of Mary Jane’s surviving son who married twice. Roy himself fathered kids who’s living kin might be expected to share DNA with Antero Bonifacio..but not Charles Webb who some may agree carried the rogue Morris gene. I’m wondering if Ms. C. Fitzpatrick and Co. would be happy to use newfound DNA volunteers in follow up evaluations to see where the con went wrong?
Actually KK’s lead narratives don’t contain pruning PDD Dud, they being merely related to the search links lead ins which whilst can’t be opened, anyone bright enough can get the general guist of. includes misleading generic marriage certificate details with something similar about Eliza (Grace) Morris being the daughter of John Wilson (?) etc. and so on. Ending with Roy’s Grave marker which I’ve since covered.
KK: For someone who says “I don’t have a skin in the Somerton Man game” you’ve done a fine job in convincing otherwise; namely in that you’re seem out to prove some alternative point of view, ie., supporting the Carl Webb theory of relativity. Not much point in my laboring over the acceptance or nay of familial information shared between online geni pay services, many of which are used by government agencies in a no liability for error capacity.
John,
Re: “Actually KK’s lead narratives don’t contain pruning PDD Dud, they being merely related to the search links lead ins which whilst can’t be opened, anyone bright enough can get the general guist of.” — More to the point, anyone bright enough can click on “Search our records now” under “Quick search” at https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history and verify the information for themselves by filling in the appropriate fields in the search form using the information I had provided in my initial comment (or the registration numbers provided in the subsequent one).
Re: “includes misleading generic marriage certificate details with something similar about Eliza (Grace) Morris being the daughter of John Wilson (?) etc. and so on.” — “John Wilson” as in John Wilson Morris. Apologies for the confusion. Other than that, I’m not at all sure what is supposed to be “misleading.”
I’ll concede that without examining the marriage certificate it’s possible that it’s a different Mary Jane Morris that married Anthony George Stephens (marriage certificate reg # 4352/1885) than the Mary Jane Morris (dau. of John Wilson Morris & Amelia Bailey) with birth certificate reg # 15728/1860. Morris Stephen’s death certificate listing his mother as Mary Jane Grace Morris certainly suggests that they’re the same person. Assuming that the version in the central Victoria records office has all the same info as the example of an 1883 Victoria marriage certificate shown at https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/4fccbf282162ef0b34d4e505, that should clear that point up. It sure as s*** wasn’t a Mary Jane Watson, however (unless the info in the scanned image of the doc doesn’t match the info in the index), and as I pointed out in my second comment there is no other marriage record shown for an Anthony Stephens between 1870 and 1915 in Victoria’s on-line hatch, match & dispatch records search page.
Re: “For someone who says ‘I don’t have a skin in the Somerton Man game’ you’ve done a fine job in convincing otherwise; namely in that you’re seem out to prove some alternative point of view, ie., supporting the Carl Webb theory of relativity.” — Regardless of what you may think, I am utterly agnostic on the questions of whether Abbott got a valid DNA sequence, or whether that sequence belonged to the Somerton Man, or whether whenever dealing with a 75 year old cold case floats to the top of the authorities’ priority list their conclusions will align with his.
What I am *not* agnostic about is the idea that there were two Anthony George Stephens families floating around St. Arnaud with identically named sons, except one wife was born Mary Jane Morris and the other was born Mary Jane Watson. And oh, by the way, none of the birth certificates for the sons showing Mary Jane Watson as the mother show up in Victoria’s on-line index of the records. Because given the other vital record involved, that appears to be the option. My opinion of that rhymes with “steaming pile of Norse spit.”
Re: “Not much point in my laboring over the acceptance or nay of familial information shared between online geni pay services…” — No, there really isn’t, given that it requires no more than a fairly cursory on-line records search in the Victoria government’s free online portal to make it abundantly clear that your reliance on the information in Mary Jane Stephens death certificate is fatally flawed.
Unlike birth certificates (where one or both of the parents are there) and marriage certificates (where, assuming the bride and groom both know who their respective parents were, the children are providing the information), information about parents on death certificates is only as reliable as the knowledge of whoever happened to be on hand to act as informant when the certificate was being filled out. And even with regard to death certificates in this particular case, 1) the age (assuming she died before her birthday and the birth registration year was her birth year) and parent’s given (but not family) names match on Mary Jane’s death certificate, and 2) the maiden name given on Mary Jane Stephens’ death certificate is an outlier even among the other death certificates involved — the Victoria death certificates for all of Anthony George Stephens’ children for which there is one list mother Mary Jane’s maiden name as Morris (or in the case of Morris Stephens, “Grace Morris”) — not a “Watson” among them.
Unless you can demonstrate that the information in the on-line records index doesn’t match the information in the images of the original records or you are in possession of records you haven’t shared that aren’t reflected in the on-line search results, there’s really little (if anything) for you to labor _over_. Your claim that Roy Stephens is sharing a bunk in a Bendigo cemetery with a dear old mom Mary Jane whose maiden name was “Watson” rather than “Morris” has been well and truly _de_-bunked.
Re: “…many of which are used by government agencies in a no liability for error capacity” — more smoke, mirrors, deflection, and obfuscation on your part. If you want to blow the $22.50 per record to get scans of the original documents to verify that the search index reflects the names on the original documents, have at it. If you can produce registration numbers for birth certificates for some other set of sons Francis Dyer, Alan, and Roy that show an Anthony George Stephens as father and a Mary Jane Watson as mother that somehow were all missed in generating the index, by all means do so.
Re: “Just chanced upon a long lost familial link to the ancestral Stephens of Eaglehawk dynasty, namely the families of Mary Jane’s surviving son who married twice.” — Who are these phantasmal Stephens of whom you speak? The only Victoria birth records that show up for a Stephens with father named Anthony for the period between 1870 and 1940 are for 8 children of an Anthony George Stephens whose wife’s maiden name is listed as Mary Jane Morris. Not a Mary Jane Watson among them. Again, if you think that’s an error in the index then feel free to spend the $22.50 a pop to buy the downloadable images to prove it…
Karl: you’ll be pleased to hear everything chugging along pretty darn well this end. Slowly but surely the bigger picture becoming clearer due some to your probing re old Frank Stephen’s no good son Anthony George and I’ve now being able to find where his sister Matilda Rayner fits into the frame of things., also Mary’s mystery marriage/pension counsellor F.P. Morris (no relation). If you’re not too tied down with other more pressing SM unrelated tasks, you might find a minute or two to have a closer look at the Stephens family from Bellan, namely Clarence Roy and mum Mary Jane who his NOK,father John having passed before his WW1 inlistment at 19 in 1918. Thanks for your kindly input and best to all at Somerton Man central.
DM: I’ve been chasing the missing link ‘twixt Merrill & Antero Bonifacio but only coming up with their kin in Patcholo & Orlando who be of the wrong vintage so disqualified. I’m now wondering if my estimation of Antero’s age be way off the mark and in fact much older, so an outside chance of being Merrill’s. Reason for my re appraisal comes from having seen his qualifications going back to the late nineties. PS: Wonder what ever became of Merrily Stephens/Bonifacio?
Karl: You’re testing the friendship but I’m not one to budge when push comes to shove. Yes you were correct in hinting that I could be holding back on a few bits and pieces that be for use when the time is ripe and my readers are a little more receptive. The eye opener that I started with and which Morris fans eg., your good self must find off puting can be found on burial detail page of Ancestry’s FAG notes for Mary Jane Stephens,1860-1932 with “Maiden name Watson” there for all to see. Got it?. You can also find records of her mother Liz who died when she was two or three on Ancesrtry, but nothing on her adoption as yet. No matter rest assured they will have it if anyone does and what’s more they don’t share information with the other gene sites most of whom are not worth the pay wall fee.
DM: I’ve been able to confirm that Merrill is in fact Anturo’s mum and he was probably born mid seventies, she having married a Filippina ship captain mid sixties as I alluded to earlier. She went to Collingwood Girls College and later worked for Lloyds until marriage to Antero Snr. Apart from learning she was a tennis champ and a one eyed Magpies footy fan, she was apparently well into
family history and kept records; hope she didn’t take a wrong turn. As for the
big Bonifacio picture, I have it on some authority that they be devotees of the combined Smith and Young teachings, likely dating from their Latter Day Filippina heritage. Notwithstanding that Anturo’s better half Rachael has her roots steeped in Plymouth Brethren teachings. I still can’t fit Prof Abbott’s errant ‘Merrily’ into the family tree, perhaps it be just a name for Merrill when she was on the court as a kid, or else Verily Merrily was some kind of LDS pet name.
John,
A couple points up front:
* It should go without saying, you do you.
* Re: “I’m not one to budge when push comes to shove”: as I’ve said to other people in other contexts, I’m not posting any of this to try to convince you that you’re wrong — I’ve been around the internet long enough to know that’s a sucker’s errand. I’m posting it to make the data available to other people considering the question.
“…have a closer look at the Stephens family from Bellan, namely Clarence Roy and mum Mary Jane who his NOK,father John having passed before his WW1 inlistment at 19 in 1918” — only Clarence Roy Stephens I’m finding via Victoria vital records search is Clarence Roy Stephens, died @ 38, death certificate # 17455/1937, father John Stephens and mother’s (maiden) name Mary Jane Beith, whose birth certificate appears to be # 8237/1899 (Clarence Roye Stephens, son of “Jno” Stephens and Mary Jane Beith) — so no Mary Jane Morris there…
“The eye opener that I started with and which Morris fans eg., your good self must find off puting can be found on burial detail page of Ancestry’s FAG notes for Mary Jane Stephens,1860-1932 with ‘Maiden name Watson’ there for all to see. Got it?” — Absolutely got it. The question on the table is not “Does Victoria death certificate # 405/1932 list decedent Mary Jane Stephens’ parents name as father John Watson and mother’s maiden name as Amelia Foden?”; the question on the table is whether that information is correct or not.
As someone who’s been doing genealogical research for decades I don’t find it “off putting” at all. The proper response to something like that isn’t to immediately go haring off after phantom Mary Jane Watsons; the proper response is to weigh that data point in light of the other relevant evidence. There are no birth certificates (or for that matter corresponding death certificates) that show up in a search of the Victoria vital records for any child of an Anthony George Stephens during the relevant period listing the mother’s maiden name as anything other than Mary Jane Morris. Anyone who wants to can check for themselves at https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history. Anyone who wants to can order a copy of the Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Morris marriage certificate.
By the way,”Foden” was Amelia Morris (later Grace, nee Bailey)’s *mother’s* maiden name. Watson, coincidentally or not, was Roy Stephen’s wife’s maiden name. Without blowing $22.50 on an image of the death certificate to see who the informant was, “confused informant” is the bet I’d place my money on.
And (according to Pat’s October 8, 2022 comment under https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/08/14/first-photo-of-carl-webb-the-somerton-man-probably) the informant on Amelia Grace’s death certificate was son-in-law A. G. Stephens.
Even in the (in my judgement beyond unlikely) event that somehow the mother of Anthony George Stephen’s children wasn’t Mary Jane Morris, sister of the Eliza Morris who was mother of Carl Webb, there would still be the familial DNA matches between Abbott’s sequence and Cristy Webb, Jack Hargreaves, and Helen Dangerfield (https://spectrum.ieee.org/somerton-man) to deal with. Again, I’m totally agnostic whether that DNA data was contaminated and/or actually Somerton Man’s.
Karl: sorry wasn’t worth my while going further south than your “steaming pile of Norse pit” for to what end? Managed to struggle through a bit more just now and am glad for the was decision to stop when I did. Anyhow you might like to vet my this latest tid bit on Roy boy which may or may not provide you with more ammo for the next tirade and I’ll keep it SS. Roy Stephens as you’ll be aware, be at rest with his mum Mary Jane at Bendigo and that causes you some consternation no doubt. What you don’t know, and it gets worse, Roy who apart from those already mentioned, had a sister Amelia Elizabeth who died in infancy in 1887; and yes I’m well aware of Amelia (Elizabeth) matriarch of the Morris Webb clan who also died that year. Says here on my generally reliable myheritage site that Roy first tied the knot with an young woman of good manners but seems to have ended in less than amicable circumstances. Not to worry, he then got onto another local lass of class and stuck it out with her to the bitter end. They had three children, one of whom was a returned man and became dad to my late informant who lives close by the action (with files) is easy to contact and may prove t be a source of old Watson family secrets.
Karl,
Continually basing our arguments on unfounded and confronting family histories from a century plus back, isn’t likely to make any headway to proving one way or another if Carl Webb’s single rootless bust hair could be an affirmative match to Somerton Man. That’s where the heart of the matter lies my friend; pity though I’m sure you have more to offer as indeed I do. See you on the flip side mugger!
John,
“Roy Stephens as you’ll be aware, be at rest with his mum Mary Jane at Bendigo and that causes you some consternation no doubt. ” — When my comment from early this AM shows up on your end post-moderation you’ll see that I feel no consternation over it at all.
“What you don’t know, and it gets worse, Roy who apart from those already mentioned, had a sister Amelia Elizabeth who died in infancy in 1887…” — I did know; it doesn’t get worse (at least from my POV); if you had taken the < 2 minutes needed to have done a search at https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history you would have found that
1) Amelia Elizabeth Stephens' death was registered in 1886, not 1887 (reg # 11048/1886).
2) The information in the search index lists her parents as father "Anthony Geo" Stephens, mother's maiden name as (drumroll please) Mary Jane Morris, not Watson.
3) There does appear to be one error in the index info, as it lists her age at death as "5" rather than (I'm assuming) "5 months". The corresponding birth certificate is reg # 22203/1886. The info in the search results show her parents as father Anthony George Stephens and mother's maiden name as…Mary Jane Morris, not Watson.
Your mileage may vary, but I think we can be relatively sure the mother was available to provide correct information regarding her maiden name for the birth certificate…
Before you waste any more of either of our time tossing out the names of additional Stephens siblings beyond Roy, Alan, Francis Dyer, and Amelia Elizabeth, searching for Victoria birth & death registrations with family name Stephens, father's given name Anthony, and year range 1870 – 1990 shows the following results for father Anthony George (or an abbreviated version thereof) and mother's maiden name Mary Jane Morris (name; birth certificate registration number; death certificate registration number):
* Amelia Elizabeth Stephens; 22203/1886; 11048/1886
* Francis Dyer Stephens; 24026/1887; none (died in France in WW I)
* Roy Stephens; 7840/1890; 8718/1928
* Morris Stephens; 37285/1891; 22486/1953 (lists mother's maiden name as Mary Jane "Grace Morris")
* Alan Stephens; 15746/1894; none (died @ Gallipoli)
* "Gerald Jas" Stephens; 6608/1897; 4877/1898
* Stanley Wilson Stephens; 13870/1899; 15708/1977
* "Chas Wallace" Stephens; 5438/1902; 33166/1960
No results for father Anthony Stephens with mother's maiden family name Watson. Zip, zilch, nada.
"They [Roy Stephens & wife # 2] had three children, one of whom was a returned man and became dad to my late informant who lives close by the action (with files) is easy to contact and may prove t be a source of old Watson family secrets." — I think you'll find that the only "old Watson family secrets" your informant has relates to the family of Roy Stephens' wife Sarah Ellen Stephens nee Watson. But as I said, you do you.
Until and unless you start posting actual pointers to primary sources establishing the reality of this phantom twin Anthony George Stephens married to a supposed Mary Jane Watson, who's pumping out kids with the same names (and, as far as I can tell, birth & death years) as the unquestionably real Anthony George Stephens who married Mary Jane Morris, there really isn't anything more for me to say. If all you've got is the information in Mary Jane Stephen's death certificate, that's weak sauce. There's no mystery where "Foden" came from — it was her maternal grandmother's maiden name rather than her mother's maiden name. Where "Watson" came from is less clear, other than Sarah Ellen Stephens' maiden name having been Watson. But again, as I said, you do you.
Don’t “quote” me if you don’t mind Karl. Brings back bad vibes from the bad old @ Jamie cum Ann O. days that still cause flash backs in ad nauseam. Anyway I’ve just found you on Carl Webb day one, sounding out potential for CM intercourse prior to the arrival of soon to be fully entrenched Abbott secondments . Mostly recalled now, since a sudden change of direction in priorities, and so one might guess your return to the scene didn’t merely come-by-chance. So much for your re stated not having ‘skin’ in the Somerton Man game but hey, who am I to judge, don’t let me stand in the way; Well constructed tit for tat banter be how the game’s played here and can be overlooked if found later to be in err.
Seems the whole case against Carl = SM may have fallen apart on the strength of my having been a year out on baby Amelia Stephen’s 1896 birth/death year. All’s not lost however, in that I’ve found something in the ledger that may need some explaining on birth parts. for her post infancy surviving siblings, seven in all that run from FranK in 1897 through to Charles @ Walter in 1902. Seems their mother Mary must have been a brood mare in order to carry beyond forty in those tough times. Prompted me do a little checking and what I found was that the three last born Gerald, Stanley and Charles be listed as Mary Morris boys whilst the earlier births be credited to Mary Stephens. All sort of gets back to one Mary being a local girl from the Bendigo Watson clan and the other, ang English born Bailey [sic] lass being eight years her junior and what’s more, still of child bearing age in 1902.
Pete’s doordash delivery dud.
Supposing that CW be a no go for SM, which is on the money according to No 1 and the good oil then you and other losers ie., Amazon Pat, AT, KK and the FB gang of four, you best all be prepared for the worst outcome scenario imaginable..if you’re not busy any chance of an extra spicy Chicken 65 Biryani at this late hour?
John,
* It is common practice (at least in other fora I frequent) to quote what is being responded to; it avoids claims of misrepresentation of what was said and makes clear what specific claim is being replied to without forcing readers to figure it out on their own or scroll back.
* http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523314 once again utterly fails to actually engage with the data relating to the issue we’re discussing, to wit whether the information in Victoria death certificate # 405/1932 listing 71-year old decedent Mary Jane Stephens’ parents names as father John Watson and mother’s maiden name Amelia Foden is correct. While I realize “if you can’t play the ball, play the man” is a common strategy, continued use of that strategy on your part is going to continue to be met (if I bother to reply at all) with a relentless focus on the substantial body of data conflicting with your position and your failure to provide any additional data that supports it.
* Given how this has been spread out over multiple comments, I thought I’d bring things all together in one place for the convenience and benefit of others (index data cited from search results generated by the Victoria government’s online portal can be confirmed via https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history):
+ Yes, Virginia, there is an 1860 birth certificate for a Mary Jane Morris, daughter of John Wilson Morris and Amelia Bailey (reg # 15728/1860);
+ There is also an 1872 (registration year, not event date) birth certificate for Eliza Morris (Charles Webb’s mother), daughter of John Wilson Morris and Amelia Bailey (# 4582/1872). If someone wants to spend the $22.50 (Australian) to confirm the document shows the 19 Nov 1871 date of birth (less than 9 months after John Wilson Morris’ death) shown for her in the family tree node at https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/about/LR91-PWL (requires registration for a free account), have at it. With the caveat that false paternity is always a possibility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event), at least notionally they were full sisters.
+ The death certificate for their mother Amelia (at that point, Amelia Grace rather than Morris) is # 10581/1897 — search result lists mother’s given name as “Elizth”, mother’s maiden name as , and father’s name as “Foden Bailey” (sic). Note the “Foden”. Also, it was claimed in https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/08/14/first-photo-of-carl-webb-the-somerton-man-probably#comment-472470 that son-in-law A. G. Stephens was listed as the informant on her death certificate. I would welcome correction of any errors in the above should someone chose to shell out the $22.50 to see a scan of the actual document.
+ There’s an 1885 marriage certificate for Mary Jane Morris & Anthony George Stephens (# 4352/1885); there is no other Victoria marriage certificate for an Anthony Stephens from 1870-1910. Even using the truncation wildcard option, the only other marriage certificate that come up for an Anthony Ste* between 1870-1910 is an 1891 certificate for Geo Anty Stewart & Louise Violetta Wigg. Nary a marriage certificate for an Anthony George Stephens & Mary Jane Watson in sight.
+ With regard to the Roy Stephens buried with mother Mary Jane Stephens — even doing a truncation wildcard search for R* Ste* for a 1927-1929 death certificate does not turn up any candidate for a misspelled Roy Stephens with a mother’s maiden name of Watson — only Roy Stephens result is death certificate # 8718/1928 listing mother’s maiden name as Mary Jane Morris & father’s name as Anthony George Stephens. So either his death certificate is in error or his mother Mary Jane Stephen’s death certificate is in error (or, I suppose, he died outside of Victoria and the body was shipped back — in which case, feel free to point me to the 1928 non-Victoria death certificate for a Roy Stephens with parents Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Morris).
+ However, in addition to Roy’s death certificate, there are more than a dozen Victoria birth & (age-matching) death certificates for individuals listing mother’s maiden name as Mary Jane Morris and father as Anthony George Stephens (all born in St. Arnaud except for Chas Wallace Stephens, who was born in Raywood):
– Amelia Elizabeth Stephens; 22203/1886; 11048/1886
– Francis Dyer Stephens; 24026/1887; none (died in France in WW I)
– Roy Stephens; 7840/1890; 8718/1928
– Morris Stephens; 37285/1891; 22486/1953 (lists mother’s maiden name as Mary Jane “Grace Morris”)
– Alan Stephens; 15746/1894; none (died @ Gallipoli)
– “Gerald Jas” Stephens; 6608/1897; 4877/1898
– Stanley Wilson Stephens; 13870/1899; 15708/1977
– “Chas Wallace” Stephens; 5438/1902; 33166/1960
+ Given how the process of birth works, I think we can be confident that Mary Jane was on hand to confirm her maiden name for the birth certificates.
+ The number of Victoria birth or death certificates from 1870-1980 for family name Stephens, father’s given name Anthony showing children of an Anthony Stephens and Mary Watson is…none. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
+ If the point of the exercise was to build the Stephens family tree from scratch, then obviously it would be necessary to check things like parents’ ages listed on birth certificates or age and parent information on the Anthony George Stephens & Mary Jane Morris marriage certificate for consistency. Fortunately for all our wallets, it isn’t. The point of the exercise is to evaluate how sound your reliance on the parents’ last names in Mary Jane Stephens death certificate is. That’s the only primary source data point you’ve presented for your position — no marriage certificate to an Anthony George Stephens, no birth certificates for an Alan Stephens or Francis Dyer Stephens with father Anthony George Stephens, mother Mary Jane Watson, and birth years consistent with the ages of the Alan Stephens or Francis Dyer Stephens who died in WW I, no nothing. Either there’s some bizarro twin Anthony George Stephens married to a phantom Mary Jane Watson running around popping out kids with the same names who have left no apparent trace in the Victoria vital records, or the parent’s family (but not given) names are wrong in Mary Jan Stephen’s death certificate.
+ Given that the age & parents’ given names in the death certificate are consistent with the Mary Jane Morris b. 1860, and the incorrect mother’s maiden name (Foden) was actually her maternal grandmother’s maiden name, when you combine that with the mass of vital records confirming the existence of the Anthony George Stephens/Mary Jane Morris family and the absence of any other vital records confirming an Anthony George Stephens/Mary Jane Watson family, it’s not even a close call. The parents’ last names on Mary Jane Stephens’ death certificate are incorrect. S***, as they say, happens.
+ While it’s abstractly possible that there are records under misspelled names that I missed, at the end of the day it’s your job to provide links to data that support your claims, not mine. If you think that’s the case, have at it.
* While we’re offering each other suggestions on commenting behavior, actual links to sources on your part would be nice. Based on a Google search I’m assuming the comment you’re referring to is https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/26/somerton-man-identified-as-carl-charles-webb-but-mystery-still-intact#comment-466277.
* It wasn’t a “sudden change in direction in priorities,” it was a comment on the blog post Nick had posted that day. Even if it turns out DNA from the exhumed remains doesn’t match Charles Webb, I suspect any resulting identification will still come out of left field for Somerton Man old timers, and I still think (per that comment) “…an interesting future study will be to create a taxonomy of the reactions from researchers who sank years of effort into their theories of choice, only to have SM turn out to be…this guy”
* To the extent that my “return to the scene didn’t merely come-by-chance”, it was purely a function of activity in the recent comments section. In case you haven’t noticed, the comments on this blog have been dominated by SM-related items for a while now. It’s not my usual cup of tea, but when it’s the beverage on hand…
* This was about spot-checking your Mary Jane Watson claim rather than a deep interest in the identity of SM. If the question on the table is whether SM was Chas Webb, I’m indifferent. If the question on the table is whose reconstruction of the Stephens line is more credible, Abbott’s or yours, I have a very clear evidence-backed position. Everyone following the discussion can judge for themselves based on the relevant data (or lack thereof)…
* With regard to your comment http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523012, I have to disagree. Given that forensic genealogy is going to play a critical role in any DNA-based identification, getting the family lines right is critical to any confirmation or rejection of the Charles Webb (or any other) identity for SM. If you didn’t think so, you wouldn’t be building castles in the clouds regarding an Anthony George Stephens/Mary Jane Watson family.
* For Abbott’s account of how the autosomal DNA was extracted, see https://spectrum.ieee.org/somerton-man. Note that Jack Hargreaves (Charles Webb’s great-great grandnephew) was the initial familial match, and there are two additional Webb-side familial matches in addition to the Antero Bonifacio familial match on the Stephens side. Again, Abbott’s DNA data may be contaminated and/or may be from stray hairs from someone other than SM who was present while the plaster of the bust was still wet, but whoever’s DNA it is Charles Webb looks like the only close family member to the familial DNA matches who death is unaccounted for. That’s not bias on my part, that’s a rational evaluation of the data at hand.
Opps — when I said “(or, I suppose, he died outside of Victoria and the body was shipped back — in which case, feel free to point me to the 1928 non-Victoria death certificate for a Roy Stephens with parents Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Morris)”, I obviously meant “with parents Anthony George Stephens and Mary Jane Watson.”
Dear John – our Karl is running rings around you!
You are trying to make us think of Watsons but the bad jukebox of my mind can only think at this time of the Waltons!
Night Momma
Night night Poppa!
Night John Boy!
Karl: You might like to repeat what you just said, if only for Pete’s sake. Poor fool gets confused by long winded verbage strung together with such eloquence and nonchalant ease; whether it be be fact or complete fiction, latter of which he be most familiar with in his line of work.
Karl: Some quotes from Carl Webb devotees and one most likely compromised Vic. birth record for Eliza Webb for your edification:
MORRIS, Eliza
BAILEY
John Wilson
PERCIDALEI
1872 4582/1872
Death Record states alternate father Robert Grace
WEBB, Eliza Amelia
Death date unknown
Mother unknown
Father? GRACE, robert
Birth Place Redbank Vic.
Death place BRUNSWICK
Age 76
Date 1946
12619/1946
…have posted certificates re Morris Webb families on Family Search trees..have not been able to locate any marriage record for Amelia Bailey although claims to have wed John Wilson Morris at Handley Staffordshire 24/7/1857, and a Robert Grace at Avoca Victoria. She was also born Emma Bailey in Shelton Staffordshire in 1935…
…correct me if I’m wrong, Amelia Bailey (then Morris then Grace) was born around 1836, according to her age (61) in 1897 death records and was the daughter of Foden Bailey & Elizabeth. In the 1871 Census she’s in Staffordshire listed as Eliza Morris (26, wife) along with John Morris (25,head), Mary Morris (3, daughter) and John Morris (1, son)…
Don’t know if that helps any but might placate your thirst for facts derived from more credible? sources.
I think you need to study up more on my past input for what it’s worth, namely the life and times of my Mary Jane Stephens denizen of Eaglehawk along with son Roy of whom you seem to know f…hall about, as with her wayward husband Anthony who you keep harping on about ad infinitum.
Doordash dud,
Can’t get y’man to respond to my query re women in their forties likely to be still pumping out the puppies, three in as many years up to 1902. You got a dog in this race here’s your chance to show us your form, if your still got the nerve mugger.
And to change the subject, I’ve found a John H. Stephens living in Kirkwood St. off Sailors Gully Rd. Eaglehawk in the 1890s. You may recall Pte. Alan Stephens as a lad living in Kirkwood St. with mother Mary, quite contrary to what we might have expected. I do have more on the house in question, but dare not spill the beans just yet lest I be caught in a falsehood not of my making.
Death notice attachment to Annie Elizabeth Grace on Find a Grave entry 1929, including my postscript.
GRACE .. On the 3rd April at private hospital, Spring Vale. Annie, beloved sister of Mrs. Webb (Spring Vale),
Robert (Werribee and Mrs. Stephens (Kew). St. Arnaud
papers please copy.
From my own research Mary Jane died at Bendigo in 1932 where she had lived all her adult life, apart from a period spent in Port Melbourne (1921-22) pleading her case for reinstatement (granting) of her pension.
Certainly doesn’t sound like above mentioned Mrs.
Stephens of swanky Kew.
Johnno!
Perhaps I can step in for the Doordash dude. What’s with your doubting of women’s capabilities, in areas where you have no experience or expertise? I gave birth to two beautiful children within four minutes of each other, at the age of forty. My great grandmother was one of nine healthy children, she was born when her mother was 43, back in the early twentieth century. These things are as wonderous as they are unremarkable.
Enjoy your meanders in Sailors Gully and mind the plank!
One might assume therefore that there were only three sibs still living when Annie Elizabeth Grace passed in 1929 ie., Eliza Emelia Grace ’72, Robert Grace ’74 and Mary Jane Morris ’68. With the other Morris kids Sarah ’58 (died young), Hugh ’62, Walter ’66, John ’69, plus Annie’s twin sister Alice Grace ’77 (died young), all of them deceased by then. That OK with you Peteb, wouldn’t wan’t to let Karl get too far in front, would we now?
Something of interest to Melbourne locality buffs Jo and co., also having some relevance to the case for a change. In 1915 James Albert Hogg, 22 of 91 Nott St. Port Melbourne signed up for the Kings shilling. After a delay (AWL) the soldier sailed off to war, but on arrival at the front, he was found unsuited to soldiering and sent him home for discharge. Not to be deterred James signed up once more giving slightly altered personal details and sailed off to join a unit serving on the Western Front. Poor chap lasted but a few months before being blown to hell in a basket in May 1917. Now for the interesting aftermath concerning a certain Mary Jane Stephens, mother of two sons, Alan who was KIA at Gallipoli in1915 the other Francis who died on the Western Front in 1918, both under circumstances which the AIF would be held liable as in the case of Jim Hogg. Mary Stephens was a waif who grew up in the goldfields a hundred miles from the city, but due to lengthy legal procedings brought on her behalf to obtain a just settlement and pension
in order to avoid poverty. In 1921 she left Eaglehawk for melbourne and was able to find meagre digs in an old stone flop house tenancy at 91 Nott St. Melbourne, yep same address as L/Cpl J. Hogg…I know yous trust me and all but, should you need proof of my yarn such may be found in the NAA files of KIA’s Alan and Jim.
Jo: brings to mind a funny thing happened shortly before my discharge as a full group three private after six years of service. I’d been working part time at the Changi housing store and one day I was given the task of taking a newly arrived RAN officer’s wife to select bedding & furnishings for her home on RAF Biggin Hill. Mrs. Surgeon Lieutenant Smythe-Stephens greater than thou attitude didn’t phase the old stores manager WO2 Siataga in the slightest, being well familiar with the type. So when my sweet thing announced her presence with uppity airs informing all within earshot of her having recently given birth to twin boys, y’man up and responded in kind on the top of his NCO’s gruffy voice “I hope it didn’t hurt mum”, with as much feeling as one might expect from a twenty five year Maori Sergeant Major…Don’t recall any planks in Sailors Gully, Eaglehawk circa. 1860 me lovely.
Jo: I see your point on women of a certain age choosing to have late additions even though spoilers like Kamala Harris would disagree with. What I really intended was to question maternity of the three Stephens sibs ie., Gerald, Stanley and Charles who show up, suspiciously as having Morris roots. I did pay note to Charles Wallace Stephens’ RAN record from 1918/19 where Anthony Geo. Stephens is given as his NOK. Whereas older sibs? Alan and Francis opted for mum Mary Jane in 1914 & ’17 That situation would accord with Mary’s 1918 claim that the boys father Anthony had deserted the family before the war. I’d say that Charles aka Walter does need some explaining, along with a couple of other anomalies as to who was screwing who in the Morris/Grace families in those baby booming days on the Goldfields.
Just test posting. Others don’t appear.
https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/300c6047-2e80-431c-b17c-3db7135de8e7/audio
Do SM searchers have the correct Charlie Webb?
Just as “George” Saul Marshall in Sydney was a 1945 effigy of General George Marshall of the US Army, was Charlie Webb (DNA) an effigy for another Charles Webb of Adelaide?
@JS,
I think the confusion arises because they are working backwards from Abbott’s sample. My one explanation is Roy didn’t die. He had a daughter and perhaps a son Mr Boniface or Fibonnaci – whatever his name is. Then the sample is effectively via Roy. I imagine Roy was a bit of a jack-the-lad delivering bread to bored housewives – helping them put up the curtains in the bedroom.
He may have had Roy sproggs all over Melbourne.
@DM: The problem for me be, entails Abbott’s decision to chose Anturo Bonifacio to lead the DNA charge (retreat) back to Eliza Webb via the questionable Stephens link. There must have been several closer to home candidates like Helen Cass and the ABC’s Webb sibs Stuart and his sister identified long before the FB member of Bairnsdale offered up his services.
DM: I seem to recall in a post pertaining to gene intermix between consenting parties that you were not confidant of Anturo Bonifacio having inherited sufficient DNA through Morris/Stephens exchange due excess male representation down the line. At another level, seems that the SM match was based on Carl Webb’s aunt Mary Jane Stephens, mother of Francis, so on through to marriage of Antero’s mother with a Filippina ship captain then came Antero Jr. On another track, where does father figure Anthony George. Stephens fit into the DNA transfer numbers. Rotten Tony’s dad was also Francis Dyer Stephens, his aunt being Mary Jane and his younger sister Mary Jane Stephens who didn’t marry and presumably had no issue. Nonetheless we should be mindful that there must have bern a whole lot of out of wedlock kids arising from the devil may care gold rush roaring days so how can we be sure who was who when push comes to shove re Carl Webb’s true origins.
@JS (I guess this is the convention here…):
“The problem for me be, entails Abbott’s decision to chose Anturo Bonifacio to lead the DNA charge (retreat) back to Eliza Webb via the questionable Stephens link.” — As I’ve pointed out several times, the IEEE _Spectrum_ article says the initial familial match was to Jack Hargreaves, Charles Webb’s great-great-grandnephew — not Anturo Bonifacio. That was the starting point for building out the family tree. Sorry to quote you given your earlier (and, frankly, somewhat odd) objection, but since this involves replying to multiple comments it’s easiest way to give people context…
“Can’t get y’man to respond to my query re women in their forties likely to be still pumping out the puppies, three in as many years up to 1902.” — 8 over 16 years, *one* of them when the mother was just over 41 years old. As a data point, during the last quarter of the 19th century one of my great-great-grandfathers married his second wife when she was 25, and over the course of their 18 years of marriage she had 10 children, the last of them when she was 40. So I do not share your skepticism.
To summarize your position for the benefit of people who haven’t followed the who thread: According to John, the mother of the first five of Anthony George Stephens’ children (born between 1886 & 1894) was Mary Jane *Watson* (supposedly the daughter of a John Watson and Amelia Foden), while the mother of the last three was the Mary Jane *Morris* (daughter of John Wilson Morris and Amelia Bailey) who is the mother of all 8 children in Derek Abbott’s tree. His sole basis for constructing this supposed “Mary Jane Watson” is the family names of the parents listed on Mary Jane Stephens’ death certificate. John also claims (on an unknown basis) that MJM was born in 1868 despite the registration year 1860 on MJM’s birth certificate.
My position, as laid out in detail with references to the specific primary documents supporting it in http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523120, is that examination of the relevant Stephens vital records shows no trace of this Mary Jane Watson, only Mary Jane Morris. No marriage certificate for Anthony Stephens & Mary Jane Watson, no Mary Jane Watson listed as mother’s maiden name on any of the children’s birth or death certificates. Zip, zilch, nada.
“Prompted me do a little checking and what I found was that the three last born Gerald, Stanley and Charles be listed as Mary Morris boys whilst the earlier births be credited to Mary Stephens.” — “listed” where, “credited” by whom, on the basis of what primary documents? All eight children’s birth certificates list mother’s maiden name as Mary Jane Morris, as do the death certificates of the six who died in Victoria (including Morris’, one of the 1st five, which lists her name as Mary Jane *Grace* Morris). Not a Watson among them. Unless good old A. G. Stephens had a time machine that allowed him to lie about the mother’s maiden name on the birth certificates of the earlier group of five, that’s a big problem.
The other arguments you make for different maternity for the final three children are:
* The estrangement between AGS & his wife (http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523867, “That situation would accord with Mary’s 1918 claim that the boys father Anthony had deserted the family before the war”): The primary source here is Alan Stephens’ Army record, which can be viewed at https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1923568. Mary Jane writes a letter dated 15 Jan 1920 (page 45), with a typed copy of the relevant part of the letter on page 43: “…… Yesterday I received a lawyers letter from Messrs. Quick & Murphy telling me that my husband who has been away from home for nearly six years wants me to agree to him getting half….. of the expected gratuity. Will you kindly let me know if he can get it. I think it is very unfair if he can. He has not given me a penny for nearly 8 years, nor do I want it…….” Six years before 1920 is 1914; eight years before is 1912. The last of the final three children was born in Dec. 1901, well before either of those dates. That letter can’t serve as basis for claiming the children born between 1897 & 1902 weren’t hers.
* Charles Wallace Stephens’ choice to list his father rather than Mary Jane as his next of kin when he enlisted in the RAN in July of 1918. Since John asks me to speculate, I will. Mary Jane sees Alan enlist in the AIF in Dec. 1914, and then drop off the face of the Earth; Francis Dyer attempts to enlist in June 1916, is rejected, and then successfully enlists in Feb. 1917, and is also shipped off to the other side of the planet to fight. Now in July of 1918 the 16.5-year old Charles Wallace wants to join the RAN — and can only do so with permission from a parent (even the 20.5 year old Alan needed a note from mom to join). Maybe father Anthony is listed as next of kin rather than mother Mary Jane because he was the parent who would give permission to join.
* The Kew location given for Mrs. Stephens in Annie Elizabeth Grace’s death notice. Rather than have my response on that get lost in TL;DR territory, I’ll address that in a separate comment. Spoiler alert #1: you really stepped in a moist, fragrant cow pie with that one. Assuming you read the *entire* FindAGrave entry that you mentioned as your source you should understand why that’s the case, because… Spoiler alert #2: the title of the mini-series based on the comment would be “Amelia Foden’s Revenge — Amelia Foden Returns From the Grave” (or more precisely, exclusively in death certificates, and not in a way that helps your case).
Alan H: you may have missed it but, yes there was another Charles Webb living at Glenelg in the day and a pastry cook to boot. I ruled him out of contention mainly because he lived well beyond 1948, from memory. As for poor joseph Marshall, I wonder did any sharp mind consider checking his volume of verse ‘Between You and Me’ (?) for a possible match to the code. PS dunno how he got to be George.
I have been using AI to extract the articles and clean up the crap. I did suggest Trove do this. some of the J. Carlin files.
Article Summary by AI:
**Somerton Man Mystery: New Lead?**
A suitcase found in a city hotel may be connected to the Somerton Man mystery, and detectives are investigating. The mystery began with the discovery of an unidentified man’s body at Somerton Beach on December 1, 1948. Despite extensive inquiries across English-speaking countries, the man’s identity remains unknown.
Allan Roy Walters, the new manager of the John Bull Hotel on Currie Street, reported the suitcase to police yesterday. A former employee gave him the suitcase, which had been left in a bedroom. The employee stated it belonged to a man who stayed at the hotel in 1945. Inside were letters, writing paper, and ration cards. Some papers bore the name “J. Carlin, Abinga, via Marree, Central Australian Railways.” A pad with writing and the words “Omar Khayyam” was also found.
The phrase “Tamam Shud” (meaning “the end” or “finished”), found in the dead man’s trouser pocket, is a key element of the Somerton Man mystery. These words were cut from a copy of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam discovered in a car at Glenelg shortly before the body was found. The paper of the torn-out phrase matched the paper of the book. This new suitcase discovery may offer another clue in this enduring mystery.
CLEVER RIDING IN ‘CHASE J. Carlin’s First Win For Several Years Skilful riding by J. Carlin gained success for Artful Gold in the Victory Steeplechase at Mor- phettville on Saturday. At the top of the straight Goldful. after having run past Trident, looked all over a winner. However, Carlin did not let up, and when Artful Gold was inclined to hang in he -vigorously applied the whip with both hands. Artful Gold got up in time to win by half a bead, in third place being Veramond. who ruined what ever chance he had by a hard hit at the last obstacle. This was Carlin’s first sn cress (or seve ral years, his last win having been achieved on Bay Anton at Murray Bridge Just before the ban was Imposed. He< was associated with the late Martin Whelan {or 12 years, and for him won the Maiden Hurdle et Flemlngton on Cape York. Carlin bas also figured as a reins man at WayrUle. Trident, who had tried to lead all the way, broke down a few furlongs from home. Lord Phillip and Ganadil ran off at the first obstacle. Young ailty went well tor most of the way. Sir Ruff, who had won at his three previous starts, was never ? possibility. M. O’Brien said that Sir Raff Jumped badly several times. The harder going probably troubled the geiding. as he did not have good legs. Sir Ruff exercised care In ianinytg_ Overdue Win Artful Gold Is raced by Mr. W. H_ Wylie, who has Conservator In partner ship with Mr. J. Netter. The Virgin Oold gelding la prepared by the former successful cross-country jockey Lionel Shepard, who was heartily congratulated upon having gained his first win as a trainer. Bhepard was associated with the bril liant fencer Mount Cooper, on whom he won one Great Eastern and In another deadheated for first with Unohoo. In the deadheat year Shephard also won the Barry D. Young Hurdle on Single Tax. Shepard rode Mount Cooper for seven seasons over all kinds of obstacles In South Australia and Victoria, including those at Flemington snd Warrnambool and he never had a fall off the gallant ‘chaser. Shepard has returned Suzerain to her owner. Be has taken in hand a two year-old unnamed filly by Owen Roe, a five-year-old gelding by Counter Patrol, and a three-year-old filly by Lord Alfred, from Princess Lodes. The steeplechaser Duverney showed promise but went amiss.
Jockey J. Carlin was fined £21 today by the S.A.J.C. stewards for allegedly placing a bet at Victoria Park last Saturday. The stewards referred their recommendations regarding registered grandstand bookmaker H. King and registered bookmakers’ clerk E. J. Ryan to the Betting Control Board.
Jockey As Official A few minutes after an exciting ride in the Sisters’ Steeplechase on the second horse. Jack Farr, at Murray Bridge yesterday, J. Carlin was dressed in the regalia of the clerk of the course. The uniform was i too large for Carlin. but he over came the problem by putting on his own coat then using the red coat of office over that as an over coat. The regular clerk of the course (Mr. A. C. Halliday) rode Chris topher in the Jenkins Ladies’ Bracelet and Carlin carried out the duties for the start of that race.
Morphettville trainer Martin Whelan, known for his dry wit, trains Grainlock, who ran in the Jumpers’ Flat at Gawler on Saturday. Grainlock hasn’t achieved much on the racecourse, but he’s known for one thing: a tremendous head. Whelan, fully aware of this, gave jockey J. Carlin specific instructions before the race: “Win easily—by a head!”
Leading Jockey Dies After Race Fall
Thomas Montague “Monty” McInerheney, 24, died early Sunday morning in Royal Adelaide Hospital after suffering severe head injuries in a fall at Morphettville Racecourse on Saturday. McInerheney’s mount, John Clare, crashed heavily during the Dover Hurdle. McInerheney was unconscious upon arrival at the hospital and underwent surgery late Saturday night.
The fall occurred in front of the Members’ Stand while John Clare was running second. Several of the 14 horses in the race galloped over the fallen horse and rider. McInerheney’s wife, Kathleen (nee Williams), witnessed the accident and accompanied him to the hospital. The couple had been married less than a month.
McInerheney’s death is the fourth racing fatality in less than six months, following the deaths of cross-country rider R. Roberts, amateur horseman S. Pitcher, and leading lightweight jockey J. Moyes.
McInerheney was South Australia’s leading cross-country jockey. He began riding nine years ago, with his first win aboard Goldful at Broken Hill in 1940. Increasing weight curtailed his flat racing career, leading him to specialize in jumping events. His fearless riding style, dash, and ability to save ground brought him immediate success, making him a highly sought-after jockey. While victory in major jump races eluded him, he enjoyed success on all the major courses and many country tracks.
Born in Ceduna, McInerheney moved to Adelaide at age 11 and was educated at Christian Brothers’ College. After leaving school, he apprenticed with his brother-in-law, successful Morphettville trainer C. Morgan, and continued riding for the stable after completing his apprenticeship.
Victorian cross-country riders Ron Hall and C. Bickham, and former Adelaide jockey J. Cowie, flew from Melbourne to attend McInerheney’s funeral on Tuesday morning. Approximately 2,000 people attended the service. The procession to West Terrace Cemetery was so long that the last cars were leaving McInerheney’s Southwark home as the hearse arrived at the cemetery. Pallbearers were E. McKenzie, G. Heagney, L. Armfield, J. Carlin, P. Oakey, and N. Robertson.
The basis for John’s “Mary Jane Watson” fantasy is Mary Jane Stephens’ Victoria death certificate (# 405/1932), which lists her father’s name as John Watson rather than John Morris, and her mother’s maiden name as Amelia Foden rather than Amelia Bailey. I’ll be circling back to Amelia Foden vs. Amelia Bailey as her mother’s maiden name in a moment. Her death certificate is the *only* vital record to support her maiden name being Watson. The Victoria certificate for her marriage to Anthony George Stephens (# 4352/1885), and the Victoria birth & death certificates for their children all confirm the Morris maiden name.
In http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523536 John has brought up a FindAGrave entry for Annie Elizabeth Grace, a half-sister of Eliza Webb (Carl/Charles Webb’s mother). Since he didn’t post a link to it, allow me: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/221447940/annie-elizabeth-grace.
His argument is that the death notice shown (from the 5 Apr 1929 Melbourne _The Age_ @ https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204221546?searchTerm=webb) lists sister “Mrs. Stephens (Kew)”, and he claims the Mary Jane Stephens who was the mother of Roy Stephens (his supposed “Mary Jane Watson”) wasn’t living in Kew in 1929. I’ll point out that John provides no evidence to support that claim.
I’ll also point out that “Mary Jane Stephens nee Watson” was still very much alive in 1929 (and undoubtedly still mourning son Roy), meaning that John’s supposed Mary Jane Morris b 1868 can’t have been “Mrs. Stephens” at that point. If John has evidence of a divorce and 2nd marriage then he will no doubt present it (not holding my breath), but I won’t dwell on either of those points because there’s a much bigger problem for John posed by the FindAGrave entry:
IT LISTS ANNIE ELIZABETH GRACE’S MOTHER’S MAIDEN NAME AS AMEILA FODEN. Sorry for the caps there, but I thought the point merited it. Funny how John somehow failed to mention that.
FindAGrave isn’t a primary source, so of course the right thing to do is to hop over to the Victoria government’s vital records search portal @ https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history and look for the death certificate (# 7282/1929), which does indeed list her father’s name as Robert Grace and her mother’s maiden name as Amelia Foden. If we’re going to join John in naively taking information on death certificates at face value then it looks like Annie Elizabeth Grace and “Mary Jane Watson”/Mary Jane Stephens, mother of Roy Stephens are indeed half-sisters (and therefore his “Mary Jane Watson” is at least the half-sister of Carl/Charles Webb’s mother, the “Mrs. Webb (Spring Vale)” listed in the death notice). Which of course defeats the whole point of John’s “Mary Jane Watson” fantasy, which is to break the family connection between Eliza Webb and Anturo Bonifacio.
In full agreement with John (other than the bogus 1868 birth year for Mary Jane) that (http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523541) “…there were only three sibs still living when Annie Elizabeth Grace passed in 1929 ie., Eliza Emelia Grace ’72, Robert Grace ’74 and Mary Jane Morris ’68. With the other Morris kids…plus Annie’s twin sister Alice Grace ’77 (died young), all of them deceased by then.” So, not being naive about taking information on death certificates at face value without cross-checking with other vital records, let’s look at the relevant Victoria birth & death records:
* Eliza Morris (she only took the Grace name later) birth certificate: # 4582/1872, father’s name John Wilson Morris, mother’s maiden name Amelia Bailey.
* Mary Jane Morris birth certificate: searching for registration years from 1858 to 1875 and father’s given name John, there is only one result with mother’s given name Amelia (or anything like it) — # 15728/1860, father’s name John Wilson Morris, mother’s maiden name Amelia Bailey. Nothing (at least in the way of Victoria birth records) to support John’s supposed 1868 birth year for Mary Jane Morris.
* Annie Elizabeth Grace birth certificate: # 24348/1877, father’s name Robert Grace, mother’s maiden name Amelia “Bailye”
* Robert Henry Grace birth certificate: # 17831/1874, father’s name Robert Grace, mother’s maiden name Amelia Bailey
* Alice Eleanor Grace birth certificate: # 24347/1877, father’s name Robert Grace, mother’s maiden name Amelia “Bailye”
So the Foden mother’s maiden name on Annie Elizabeth Grace’s death certificate doesn’t match the mother’s maiden name on either her own birth certificate or those of her Grace siblings. It also doesn’t match the mother’s maiden name on Alice Eleanor Grace’s death certificate (# 3025/1878, died @ 1 month, father Robert Grace, mother’s maiden name Amelia “Bailye”). It does match the mother’s maiden name on Robert Henry Grace’s death certificate # 16681/1943.
Where does that leave us? 1) the Amelia Foden mother’s maiden name doesn’t just show up on Mary Jane Stephens’ death certificate, it also shows up on the death certificates of two of her three Grace half-siblings (but not, crucially, on the death certificate of the half-sister who died in infancy); 2) all three of the Grace half-siblings’ birth certificates (and Alice’s death certificate) list the mother’s maiden name as Bailey/”Bailye”; 3) as a result, not only do none of the other relevant Stephens vital records support the Watson father’s surname on Many Jane Stephens’ death certificate, but the relevant Grace vital records also show the Foden mother’s maiden name error on two of her three Grace half-siblings’ death certificates, with the Grace birth certificates supporting Bailey as the correct answer.
As I said back in http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523421, the right first step to take if John was serious about trying to confirm his “Mary Jane Watson” fantasy would be to pony up the $22.50 AUS to order a copy of the Stephens’ marriage certificate and see what it lists for the names of the bride’s parents rather than resting his entire case on Mary Jane’s death certificate, which is a dead end. The Stephens vital records drive a stake through the heart of the father’s family name being Watson, and the Grace vital records drive the final nail in the coffin of the mother’s maiden name being Foden.
Peteb: Can’t recall Ruth’s gentleman detective Bartlett saying anything about the suitcase, nor for that matter Kevin Moran or Ronald Thomas from their renewed pre ’58 inquest inquiries. All the same Graham Bartlett was on the money in his appraisal of it’s weather worn state when he saw it in the eighties. In fact from when the suitcase and part of its contents was displayed on Inside Story to when it next appeared in a photo in the Feltus book open and with much reduced contents strewn haphazardly across a concrete home garage floor, it was clear that it had been exposed to the elements in the interim period, the by then moth eaten T. Keane tie being a good example of how not to treat somone elses finery.
karl,
I seem to recall earlier in our conversation that I’d prefer it if you didn’t quote me. I also suggested, quite politely from memory that you might also like to give us all a little of your background. In that you chose not to oblige in either case, gets me to conclude that there be really no purpose in replying to your confusing and blatant hostility any further. Maybe other CM contributors might be more inclined to offer support to whatever it is that you’re trying to prove and be willing to come up with necessary funding for same. Don’t bother responding as I’m not at all interested in adding to further fruitless debate. Sorry …
A funny coincidence
Glenelg Fight Back. By Colin Hay.
Glenelg, playing without two of their star players, stuck to their guns gamely and held off Sturt long enough to win by 11 points. Star player was Don Laffin, whose marathon ruck effort must be ranked as one of the best for the year. Without Crabb, Glenelg had to call on Laffin for an almost non-stop rucking performance. Derek Abbott stood out on Sturt’s half-back line with a consistent, and at times, brilliant performance.
A Derek Abbott in Glenelg in 1949 – it’s one way to get in the team – bump off the other player.
DM: either a reverse prophecy, or else it may be that Abbott’s FB Inc. has had a somewhat closer than usual relationship with Trove, as I’ve suspected all along.
I wonder if ‘Derek Abbott’ had any missing teeth after that match?
John,
With regard to your request not to be quoted: all I have done is to quote (relatively minimally, and absolutely in context) things that you have said here — in an open public discussion forum to which you voluntarily contribute — in the context of responding to them in the same forum. I cannot express how bizarre I find your objecting to that.
As for your request for “background”, apparently what I said in http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-523421 was unclear (at least partly because of a misguided effort to accommodate you by linking to an earlier comment of yours rather than quoting it), so to clarify:
* My background is irrelevant to whether the data I’m citing is correct or my analysis of that data is sound. That applies whether the subject of the discussion is the Stephens’ family tree, Somerton Man more broadly, the Voynich Mss, Bigfoot, Young Earth Creationism, UAPs (or as we used to call them, UFOs), Mormon Archaeology, Romans traipsing around Arizona, or what happened to Ambrose Bierce.
* People who refuse to engage with the substance of an argument while asking for “background” can only be motivated by a desire/hope to deploy the old “if you can’t play the ball, play the man” ad-hominem strategy. Your ludicrous attempt to find something suspicious in the fact that I *gasp* happened to comment on one of Nick’s SM posts the same day the post showed up just confirms me in that opinion.
(By the way, when I comment here at CM it normally *is* soon after the original post appears. Posting this far down in this long a pile of comments is what’s more unusual. But as I said, Somerton Man stuff is what’s been dominating the “Recent Comments” section here for G*d knows how many months now, so here we are…)
As to whether this has been “fruitless,” I have to disagree. As someone who has spent a lot of time doing genealogical research over the years I think it’s always useful to find opportunities to exercise and hone my skills, and along the way I’ve enjoyed digging into doing research in Australian records. Whether I’ve persuaded you is beside the point, and was never the goal of the exercise. Anyone who encounters your “Mary Jane Watson” theory in the future now has chapter and verse on the vital records data contradicting it. That you were the one who (inadvertently) pointed me in the direction of the pair of death certificates for two of Mary Jane Morris’ Grace half-siblings that also had the “Amelia Foden” mistake was just an amusing bit of irony.
@Karl I have been spending my time trying to develop tools to help analyse Trove, facial ID and the SM code.
For Trove I have 2 versions but the AI version requires my Gemini API key which could be used to run up a bill. It is a shame because it summarises the newspaper articles well and fairly accurately.
This was my original draft which I derived from an earlier version in a Google sheet.
https://yh5xfw.csb.app/
It is a shame because the power of AI to extract the text is impressive. I am trying to figure out to copy an encrypted binary to the public space on codes sandbox. But I have an idea to explore.
This is facial ID (but again no AI). I have got this far after an Xth attempt.
https://r6py3j.csb.app/
My next version will try to use Gemini to analyse the results (for me to use).
The biggest factor is to get original images not copies of copies.
The SM code bit I have tried various approaches – index of coincidence etc. But I am waiting for a new insight. But I have built this as an anagram checker. I did this for the Isdal Woman mystery. I haven’t tried with the SM code to find anagramatic words.
https://4vry6t.csb.app/
Karl?…Kentucky fried, maryland or fricasee makes no difference to me. Chicken!
Peteb: you’ll be pleased to hear that International DNA Solutions Florida, formerly Inter-Mountain Forensics Utah, and before that Astrea Forensic Solutions, of God knows where, is where DA sent his Somerton Man bust rootless hair rush job, as per easy to follow online directions in mid ’22. And guess what? positive results were back in a trice and no bill..why not, because it be a not for profit company owned by a kindly lady and daughter with expert volunteer lady staff who do it out of goodness of their hearts. Look em up when you get the chance.
For some, bereft of intuitive skills, the following pick up from FAG records at St. Arnauds won’t mean much but, if you happen to have an inquiring mind you may think it somewhat odd that Eliza Webb’s father Robert Grace who passed in 1887, and presumed mother Alacia Grace nee Bailey [sic] who did something similar in 1897 are buried quite some distance apart. Think about it and while you’re at it you might care to give some extra thought to Alacia Morris interred at the much larger Bendigo cemetery since 1898, with no grave marker or details of her birth date as with the Grace couple. I’m not insinuating anything there be interference going on simply musing aloud on several possibilities that come to mind.
@JS,
Carl Webb’s super-doppelganger was S. Mitting a cricketer with Merbein but then where?
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/7588defd-2347-47ce-a816-c429151062ab/1/pho020i0013.jpg
NAA has his family. I was hoping for a Walter Mitting..
The Mitting files:
Date Name Event Type Location Details Reference Number
1927-1928 CE Mitting Land Selection Merbein Land correspondence files VPRS 5357/P0000, M28890
Jul 29, 1929 Charles Lawrence Mitting Inquest Merbein Cause of death: Drowned VPRS 24/P0000, 1929/840
Sep 23, 1929 Charles L Mitting Probate Mildura Occupation: Horticulturist VPRS 28/P0003, 230/404
Dec 12, 1938 Eliza A Mitting Probate Elsternwick Occupation: Married VPRS 7591/P0002, 301/386
Apr 14, 1943 Ethel May Mitting Inquest Mildura Cause of death: Asphyxia due to drowning VPRS 24/P0000, 1943/419
Mar 23, 1943 Ethel M Mitting Probate Mildura Occupation: Widow VPRS 28/P0003, 341/213
2 deaths by drowning.
Ethel in a tank.
Charlie in a well. Mr. Mitting was a returned soldier, who had spent a year and ten months in a German war prison. He suffered severely from the effects of the war, and was unable to do any work on his block.
Cecil Mitting in Court for THE MERBEIN FRUIT ROBBERY. Apparently drying stolen fruit.
Sidney/Sydney Roy/Ray Mitting 1905 UK? arrived unaccompanied Melbourne. 1912, married 1931 (Table Talk Melb.), died (rich) Sydney 1984 (not SM). Sibs William Tom Harold, Charles Lawrence Merbein, Sunrsysia.
@JS
Yes I found some moreas well.
https://binreminded.medium.com/the-somerton-mans-doppelg%C3%A4nger-8972a495c0e8
DM: bin telling you forever that your ‘binreminded’ links don’t work for me mugger.
DM: in case you missed it, Sid Mitting’s wife was Edith, same age (not Mrs. SM) living at 22 Reynolds St. Pymble 1972. Dad Bill & mum Ellen, lived Merbein, died Melbourne. Son Kevin bn. ’38, engineer of Rochester Indiana, wife Sandra and two daughters pre millennium tel. 317 4736688…Might try to give him a call sometime.
John,
With regard to http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-524660 (see how clumsy that is compared to quoting what you said?):
If you’re genuinely interested in trying to resolve whatever questions you have about the Amelia Grace buried at St Arnaud’s (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/274259881/amelia-grace), then an obvious next step would be for you to order a downloadable copy of what appears to be her death certificate (# 10581 / 1897) via https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/search-your-family-history. If you scroll down through https://pjandrews.id.au/andrews.html you’ll see images showing all the info that was on a Victoria death certificate of the era beyond what shows up in the on-line search results; or you can look at the transcribed examples at https://www.shade.id.au/Burman/Burmancertificates.htm — here’s one of them to show the information that was included at the time:
Deaths in the District of South Fitzroy in the Colony of Victoria. Registered by Marian Clarke
No. (?). When and where died. 11th June 1890. 141 Smith St. City of Fitzroy County of Bourke
Name and Surname, Rank or Profession. William Insul Burman Photographer
Male 80 years
Cause of death. Senile Decay. Duration of Last Illness 6 months. Medical attendant (?). When he last saw deceased 10th June 1890.
Father. William Burman Barrister
Mother. Not known.
No. 7178.
Informant. F.C.I. Burman. Son. 141 Smith St Fitzroy.
Deputy Registrar. Marian Clarke. 13th June 1890. 23 George St Fitzroy.
Buried 13th June 1890. General Cemetery Melbourne. Undertaker (?)
Minister. Thomas Hill Goodwin. Church of England Minister.
Where born, how long in Australian Colonies, stating which. England. 37 years in Victoria.
Married in England at age 19 to Sarah Smith (dead).
Issue in order of birth, their names and ages.
Richard William (dead). Anna (dead). Frederick Charles 49. Alfred (dead). Emily (dead). Arthur 38.
Seeing that additional info should go a long ways towards resolving your doubts one way or the other. Not sure how “issue” was filled in if from multiple partners, so you’ll have to suck it and see.
Ditto with regard to whatever extra thought you think is merited for the Amelia Morris buried in Bendingo in 1898 (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/211317903/amelia-morris), whose death certificate appears to be #
17002/1898 (father’s family name listed as Adcock, died @ 85 in Long Gully).
Good hunting, let us know what you find…
Like Carl Webb, Sidney Roy Mitting was also an engineer – but with the GPO.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/rendition/nla.news-article241042605.txt
Oh John bhai – Karl sahib is doing you like a dinner! What will we be delivered for your just desserts?
That Doordash Dud
Seeing that you put the question so ineloquently; your head served up on a plate would make a fine “dessert” [sick]
Peteb: I don’t recall who it was, not you, or even when it was with any clarity that questions started being raised about Roy Webb and his younger brother “Charlie” seeming to be the same height ie 5′ 8″ or so, as depicted in the Stuart Webb family album shot. I do recall however, that it was you certainly who be deserving of full credit for introducing to us blind mugs a better alternative candidate for “Bluey” Somerton, namely a 31 year old nephew of the pair Charles Richard Webb. You sure know how to pick them Dude.
JohnS .. Not just me, shabs and NickP think along the same lines as well .
Clive: Roy Webb’s height be varified in his NAA service file @ page sixteen beneath his Oath. Picture paints a thousand words you’d think, though maybe not, by your terms of strict reckoning.
Donut dunkin’ Dan,
or whomsover you’re attempting to mimic, have you finally lost the plot. By end of July 2022, upon being put wise by an alert punter to Abbott’s switcheroo of given names from Gerald to Thomas Keane. Most of CM unbiased regulars would have twigged to motives of such a cunning stunt and paid heed; but not you it seems and so we might dare to wonder why. Hints of you being a Charles Webb convert by my reckoning and why not, ensures a free ride to the winners circle if all goes down as initally plotted.
Peteb: can’t see a whole lot wrong with your own alternate “Charlie” assessment, especially when supported by the likes of Pelling. Baring his probable blunder in misdating the B408 VM by a short half ton (according to U of A), he’s been mostly on the ball with Tamam Shud.stuff, at least date wise. As for “Shabs”, well what can one say? Never been known to err on key issues like identifying nags and stiffs.
JS: I stand corrected.
Tbt. Incorrigibles
Yous buncha smart asses gotta be taking the mickey, right?
Peteb: stuff the missing ankle biters they’re all too young to be guilty of anything. Indeed A.1 # has the game well and truly sown up by now, and precisely as I had predicated over and over ever since your? initial claims that the J. Keane tie was likely stolen by arch fiend, thief & wife beater Carl Webb, from poor Jack Keane’s effects after the latter’s tragic death in County Antrim, Iceland November, 1943 from memory…
– GC: “because the eyes would have been removed during the autopsy in December.”
They were not. If you examine the post-autopsy photo’s you can, with some photo-enhancement, clearly see the irises. The eyelids round over the eyeballs.
– Debating the SM’s hair colour as “evidence” is pointless. It is not surprising that different people perceive golden blonde hair differently. For example, it is darker or lighter on different parts of the head. Even the separate hairs can be of different colour (mixed)! It darkens with age. Under different conditions it appears different. Some people may not have such a great perception of colour anyway.
Oh Johnny!
Off your head or off with your head? Your memory serves you a meagre meal.
There was no Iceland in Anterim in 1943, however, they do sell lovely samosas in our contemporary times.
https://www.iceland.co.uk/p/shazans-20-vegetable-samosas-650g/69633.html
What’s more Mavourneen, there never was an Anterim in Iceland either or for that matter anywhere else that I’m aware of in 1943 or ever. In the Interim perhaps my original Antrim might have to stand.
Calypso: let us know the origins for SM’s “golden blonde” locks if you don’t mind. Had that been the case I’d have to agree with your “pointless” debate position, that based on Charlies presumptive appearance in the group shots from the Werribee gathering of 1936. However going by the old favourite of all that glitters is not gold, if you care to check 1948 local press releases, you’ll find they mostly go for fair hair greying as being their mutually agreed hair shade. I did happen across a dissenting view from Adelaide News, albeit long after the fact, pointing to the Unknown Man’s distinctive “huge hands and gingery grey hair”. Sounds like some body I once knew.
John:
1. All hair colours mentioned taken together fit the description of a gold blonde.
2. The proposed candidate Carl W.’s family originated from Hamburg, Germany where gold blonde is a very common hair colour.
Mind you, even separate hairs of a gold blonde can be of a different colour. One individual can have a mix of white-sandy-golden-ginger-brown-black hair.
You can’t proof a thing if the hair colour can be a gold blonde.
The Door Dash Dud,
Ha! Tbt’s “one rootless hair” yoke reminds me of dead Pres.Reagan’s quip on ‘hare restorer”, better still, theone about how long’s the hare on a rabbit?. Such a crazy guy Regan [sick] and yet Nancy adored Ronnie two bits. Get it? ‘two bits’. You’re a scream too!
No. 1 # (Tbt 4)
Guess you’re not aware that your latest Xanado Hammer speel is the umteenth time it has appeared on fourth ranked Tbt and quite frankly it’s getting a bit long on the tooth, somewhat akin to the forensic scientist cum quasi criminalist herself. I tried to get hold of of the fair lady at Newassole Uni. after the Dud’s last repeat, but alas, not even an ackowledgement of my sorry existence.
Tbt’s: A.1: you’re a slow learner mate, but at last you’re on the mark. Only one you have to convince re the Webb, Keane, Morris, Grace, Stephens, Robertson, Loclyer DNA disconnector with Tamam Shud/Somerton Man is your obtuse goose of an octogen ring master @ the Door Dash Dud.
Clive: yours be the best answer to the bust hair conundrum bar none, and will no doubt settle the question on suitability of DNA test hairs plucked from SM’s bust having defied all attemps to date, be they golden or bleached blond, grey, mousy ginger, gingery auburn, or combinations thereof, rootless or not. Thus we can at last get cracking on the best method for collecting testable DNA evidence without any need for frustration and hair pulling. The solution of course being in a simple process of splitting the plaster cast at its centre seam exposing a mat of applied mould hair, and to a lesser degree, a collection of easy to distinguish donor hairs, prestine and unspoiled by the ravages of time, non putrid roots and all. For your most intuitive input Mr.Turner/Walker you’ll likely become a household name and jolly well deserved in my estimation.
Second thoughts, it depends on how the original mold was cast, there being more than one way to skin a cat. If the bust be of one piece its interior and would be a solid mass, and contain nothing but amateurishly applied tufts of sisal matting or finer human donor hair protruding. There’s also the real possibility of fan blown debris including mortuary hair clippings having become adhered, though not fully imbeded onto the wet plaster surface area.
JS: Household name? Somehow I doubt it, Alan Joyce perhaps, he knows how to get ‘ahead”? Perhaps a visit to the SA Police Museum, with a stiff cleaning brush, and the case, containing the bust is ‘unfortunately’, in pieces on the floor? No, too risky, the police might take an interest.
According to DA’s informed sources the SM bust was likely cast from four separate molds in which case we’re not likely to find too many hairs in the finished full scale true to life result, unless they were planted as a sign of respect to the unknown sitter or pehaps a morbid ritualstic rite. Some will have noticed how light the life sized plaster monstrocity appears when being toted by Det. Leane to and from the Inquest, or indeed by creator Paul Lawson seen taking it out of his office cupboard to show Stuart Littlemore many years later. That might well suggest a semi hollow multi layered technique being applied to create cavities and thereby substantially lightening the finished bust. End of the day who knows? those 50 + 50 spare hairs could have been secreted thus then later retrieved when deemed appropriate by someone in the loop, eg. PP Const. Scan Sutherland or my bet Laurie Elliott.
Johnno, all that besides, but I’ve got a problem with Amy (check group photo) .. and am thinking so should you.
Peteb: Amy’s not my brief, I’m still trying hard to crack the body on the beach case; besides poor Amy was seven years in her grave when Richard’s seventieth birthday was celebrated in ’36. Some not so Keane punters may have missed his fancy chair, which was placed centre stage as depicted in the Werribee family photo.
Clive: things are getting somewhat muddled, bit like ‘Finnigans Wake’. Some folks say that the S.A. Police Museum be done & dusted and yet we have GC swinging by in person recently to check on the bust. Whatsmore done took a photo while there to prove it. You’re a Thebarton local, what gives?
John: Thebarton local? hardly! Per SA Police the Museum at Thebarton was closed about a month ago, due to demolition. New SA Police Museum will be opened in the Adelaide CBD, no date as yet.
Peteb,
You’re not gonna tell us bleeders you’ve been given fair dinkum proof from the horses mouth, that Amy (Sarah Harriet Webb nee Tomkinson) be in the family shot at Gracelands, surely? There be any number of Amy’s knocking around in those halcyon days, or Amelias that went by that pet handle, eg., Amy Johnson, and her adversary Amelia Earhart. And why not the Webbs in Eliza Amelia and Doris from humble roots to name just two. Pay us to take No 1’s lead away from the Webb foolishness and back towards good old Somerton Beach where we truly belong.
By my astute time reckoning seventy six years ago, Jerry Somerton had just been introduced to Mounted Constable Knight of Adelaide City Morgue who had been assigned duties to keep him safe from harm’s way for as long as required and to guard against any untoward interference upon his quasi imortal remains whilst on his watch. For all we know the retired horse trooper did all that was expected of him..then some imho.
Peteb: saw that coming a mile off mate. Totally irrelevant of course but my view, for what it’s worth or not worth accordingly has always been that the last three gals, left side facing be Eliza Amelia Webb with the two Mrs. Martins Jr and Snr. beside her. No sign of poor Amy who by my understanding died after a long illness way back in mid 1929. How does that set with you and your ever reliable informant Stuart.
Gemini view of Somerton man
Image Description:
That’s a black and white, close-up post-mortem photograph of a Caucasian man.
Here’s a breakdown of the image:
* **The Subject:** The man appears to be middle-aged, with short, slightly unkempt dark hair that is combed back. His facial features are somewhat prominent, with a broad nose, and his eyes are closed. His expression is neutral, almost somber. There’s a slight pallor to his skin, consistent with a post-mortem photo. A hint of a collar and what might be a dark tie or shirt is visible at the bottom of the frame.
* **The Photograph:** The photo is a fairly straightforward, clinical shot. The lighting is even, eliminating harsh shadows, but it lacks warmth or vibrancy characteristic of a portrait. The background is plain and light-colored, drawing all attention to the subject’s face. The quality suggests it’s likely an older photograph, possibly from a police or forensic archive given the nature of the subject’s presentation. The grain and slight blurring are also characteristic of older photographic processes.
The overall impression is one of starkness and solemnity, typical of a post-mortem photograph intended for identification or record-keeping purposes.
and:
Image Description:
That’s a black and white, close-up image of what appears to be a death mask.
Here’s a breakdown of the image:
* **The Subject:** The mask depicts a man’s face, seemingly middle-aged or older, with a somewhat gaunt appearance. His eyes are closed, and his expression is serene, almost peaceful. The skin texture is visible, showing subtle wrinkles and lines, especially around the eyes and mouth.
* **The Mask Itself:** The mask is made of a material that seems smooth, possibly plaster or a similar substance. There’s a slight graininess to the image, possibly due to the age of the photograph or the quality of the original source material. The detail is quite good; individual features are clearly visible. The ears are molded and attached, and there appears to be some shadowing around the neck suggesting the mask’s thickness.
* **The Image Quality:** The photograph itself is grainy and of low resolution. It has a somewhat washed-out appearance; there’s little contrast between light and dark areas. It likely comes from an older source, maybe a book or archive. The background is uniformly dark, providing no distraction from the subject.
Overall, the image conveys a sense of solemnity and stillness, characteristic of a death mask. The focus is entirely on the detailed representation of the man’s face.
Not that Abbott and Fitzpatrick wouldn’t have been Keane on dicking about with the Tomkinsons; it’s just that they hadn’t gotten into their ‘closeknit’ family links before coming across what they really needed in the uniquely complicated but otherwise legitimate Grace/Morris gene pool as things panned out. NB: Seems young Doris Amy had married her first cousin Norman John Tomkinson of Colac
No. 1 # (Tbt),
Know where you’re coming from my man, Pan Am always had an abysmal record comes to passenger baggage handling mix ups, especially the Saturday flights into Sydney from San Francisco in the early days. In the end it took them to the wall and they gave the game away for good thirty four years ago to day, from memory.
Peteb: What “header pic is David Wittle, SA Coronor” you be talkin’ abart then? Can’t see nothin’ at all apart from the thread promo and ten bland comments. Coulda swore there was a an SM look alike portrait right there yesterday?
Clive: Sorry mate, you missed one other smallish item every bit as good for linking the suitcase to the beach body, surely you can button it. Speaking of the Barbour threads, it was the Leane team and not Cleland what made the match, and on day one according to the local rags, the latter affirming same by scientific examination later in the quest. Tell Peteb, if you will that there has never been positive proof that the suitcase and or contents were not subjected to fingerprint analysis; police don’t let the papers or clowns like us know their every investigative move but, alas there’s them that will be saying nay till the cows come home.
Peteb: what you reckon about senior officers planting evidence as Clive is now suggesting. Shades of what Gordon has been saying from day one in his eye spy game..and being taken to task for suggesting such nonsense I might add, and by guess who? Further regarding your claimed lack of fingerprinting, if indeed that be true, you seem to have answered your own question as to why not. I can think of several more valid reasons besides, including there having been no evidence of a crime at the time, particularly seeing as SM’s prints were not recorded anywhere, and besides police found sufficient proof that the recovered suitcase belonged to him. What could be further gained from fingerprint dusting, baring in mind that neither Sapol CIB nor Sydney based central fingerprint singles section had nothing to compare with any prints lifted from the case or contents. About time you gave up on that moot point Peteb, it’s all becoming rather repetitive and droll if you’ll excuse my needing to say so.
John Sanders, the master of misinformation .. Cleland was the one who matched the thread, you see, because unlike DS Leane he was able to do so because he had a MICROSCOPE. But then again you don’t believe anything Feltus wrote as you know better .. it’s getting a little tiring Johnno .. same old same old.
All the best.
Peteb
Reckon we’re getting pretty close to the true gingery shade of ‘Blue’ Somerton’s locks which so impressed Mirror journalist Frank Burgess. So Special thanks to J. B. Cleland for his “warm sepia” description of orange linen threads, and new man in town No. 1 # or poster Kallin, who has just come up with a potential winner, one I’ve never heard of, in “cordovan” (burgundy in Frog) the tone of SM’s 204Bs which fills the void rather nicely if you care to check Tbt’s linked shade chart. Both leave Calypso’s own best effort of “strawberry blond” or the anon. poster’s “whiter shade of pale” (for the bleached blond Webbs), all at sea.
Peteb: Det. Sgt. R. L. Leane……, said yesterday that he was satified beyond doubt that the clothing in the suitcase belonged to the man found dead at Somerton on December 1…..He had concluded this after closely examining a CARD OF BROWN COTTON found in the suitcase. Of an unusual type, it was identical with the cotton used to repair the lining of a pocket in the dead man’s trousers, and to sew buttons
on a pair of trousers found in the suitcase..
That was from your Tbt site courtesy Barry Braish Newspapers and found in the Advertiser dated 18 January 1949, well before Cleland had a chance to check it with his loupe.
Peteb: No need for apologies, “I stand corrected” or anything so self demeaning. Just your usual caught out comment “Noted”, “Fair enough” or a stoney silence will suffice.
Peteb: That’s Norman Webb, owner of the photo album, sprawled out on the grass at age 14/15 in ’35 or ’36. Suggest that when you have a minute, compare his NAA photo with that of Vivian Keane at 18/19 and you’ll see what I mean..or you won’t.
JohnS … And when did Cleland check the thread, no mention of a date in Feltus, and no mention of a loupe either ..
Peteb: No need for us to know when Cleland made his claim re the threads, but you can bet what’s left of your shattered self esteem that Leane got there first. capiche? The loupe was in the suitcase, born of Feltus’ fertile imagination, if my failing memory serves correct..
JohnS .. still reckon the family photo was taken in the mid thirties do you?
JS: So, Leane described the Card of Brown Cotton as an unusual type, I wonder did he mean it was of foreign manufacture? There must have been something about the cotton that triggered his remark.
From memory it was waxed linen thread, not cotton, the type of thread that is used in leatherwork or on things like oilskins, or leather motor cycle jackets.
Peteb: if 1935/1936 equates to mid thirties and your happy with that, then you can count on both me and Shabs to back you all the way. Only fair, in that it was she who picked the attending ladies attire as having come from that late depression period, no earlier. Maybe you can convince others from your Tbt team to come for the ride.
Clive: well, not unless he had poor eyesight, after all the ‘Lisburn N. Ireland’ place of origin stamp centre top on Cleland’s more aptly described warm sepia threads card ain’t likely to be no Scotch mist. Right?
JohnS .. you being the guru of the CM related SM mystery .. What are your feelings about PCMoss’ insistence that no matches were found on the body?
And by the way, this is the beginning of a series of questions that delve into your knowledge of the Somerton Body case. Being question number 2.
Looking forward to your timely reply.
Peteb: right you are for Bozo, in the general theme of an old favourite ‘I’ve forgotten more than you’ll ever know about the SM mystery..capice?. As for matches, Yep .. ‘Your face and and my arse’ sport. Got a light?…Hooroo …
Byron: I recall your Barbour leather weather gear from back in the day and it bears little relativity to the same brand threads card found in the left suitcase and none at all to the SM mystery in general terms. Sorry.
@JS your dogmatic insistence on people and dates, etc disappoints me. Likely you were never wrong as a copper.
It ends up like Kripos in Norway falsifying evidence to give people life sentences or sticking some kid in jail after keeping him up all night without sleep and as they used to say “put salt in the water”. Meanwhile the real criminal was never caught. The Yorkshire Ripper continued because of the insistence by the police chief that the tapes were the Ripper. It excluded reality.
It ends up like that sad old guy they called the Spycatcher who insisted that a can of hairspray exploded and killed the Isdal Woman in 1970. Even though he had sent in teams with metal detectors to find metal fragments. They found none. He died shortly after giving the same lying interview.
You have to keep checking your own reality and correct yourself.
Why can it not be 1929 and Leo sat on the grass? How does that hurt your reality?
‘Lisburn, N.Ireland’ place of origin and Kean(e) also of Irish origin?
Clive: you asked the question or doubts re threads country of origin. I provided the correct answer based on concrete evidence of that. Can’t do better than that sport!
DM: are you denying that AI was absolutely on the money regarding both points of contention? Not by my reckoning, but each to their own depending on opinion and unimpeachable evidence to the contrary.
…whoops sorry. second querie response be, it can’t be Leo Vivian on the grass simply in that subject looks nothing like him and two, because Abbott’s FB false prophet Stuart Webb insists it is without any proof apart from the poser being in shorts which fits oh so conveniently with an assumed date of 1929. You could always give your all knowing imposter AI a shot at redemption by getting it to give the original album owner Norm Webb more exacting scrutuny.
It all boils down to flexibility, adjusting course when new insights arrive.
Likewise, I have just adjusted course about the scenario of the Somerton Man being overpowered from behind with a knife while getting dressed and packing his suitcase.
Let us not forget that many -each in their own way- did their utmost to solve this case.
@Calypso,
When I heard they were going to announce the SM I thought I should give Rudolf Mons my best shot. I contacted a military body identifier, I contacted all military experts about their knowledge and pictures of Mons. They could all get him back to the 1930s but none before. So I waited for them to say the SM was Mons. I was wrong. But I could accept it. Just like I can accept Sidney Mitting was Carl’s doppelganger – looked like him, engineered like him, played football like him. But still not him. Nature had created a spare just in case…
DM: You should have known better with unrealistic expections of Rudolph Mons being Somerton Man. Apart from his age which would only have been 34 in 1948, had he lived beyond 30 that is, Rudy had fair hair not ginger, a prominant cleft chin which was notably absent in our ‘bluey’ Somerton; Last but by no means least, your nazi doppelganger was five years dead, and lying on the sea bed off the coast of North Africa when SM was found lying high and dry on a beach in far off SA.
DM: you’ll have noted that your S. Mitting of the footy pic be the shortest of all eight standing (on a long bench stool) in the back row. Based on average heights for caucasian youth aged 17 circa. 1922 estimated at 5′ 6″, your S. Mitting, ie., my Sidney Roy Mitting was certainly going to fall well short of that mark on maturity and therefore not a candidate for SM who was said to be 5′ 11″ doublebunger or not. That’s where your pseudo AI technology fails the test every time, contrary to the more consistant APC methology (mine) based on REALITY which you choose to decry and ignor…to your eternal regret, trust me!
The Somerton Man sham, so far from reality.
Part 1..
The night he died from in jesting a poison he ate a patsy at an unknown location, then was, as reported ten years thereafter, seen being carried by a well dressed man along the Somerton Beach foreshore by four witnesses, three unidentified, and who didn’t think to intervene or offer kind assistance and leaving the scene. Truth…..Fiction……Contentious…..read on at Tbt blog and decide for yourselves
@JS
I asked a military identifier about Mons first and he agreed many similarities. Some plastic surgeon ‘potentially’ could have uncleft him. The thought occured to me he was burned up in the plane and a surgeon stepped in. He was an engineer, climber. I asked all the writers of military books that included Mons and they were quite taken with the idea. All their knowledge of Mons can be traced back to Nazi propaganda in Vienna newspapers. In fact there is no real record he ever existed before 1933. The Viennese newspapers said his dad was a factory manager. But no birth records etc for Mons in newspapers.
—-
In the photo Mitting might have been on the ground and the others on a bench. Most people who saw the picture thought it said ‘Row Sitting’ not SR Mitting. But then you’d be short a name. My interest is to see whether doppelganger Sidney diverges in appearance if I could locate a picture around 1950.
Mitting also played cricket so there may be photos of the team.
I wanted to see whether people ‘should have thought’ it was shorty Mitting.
John, not everybody has the same insights ;
The other three were identified JS .. proving you’re wrong, again. Age does that to a man.
Peteb: you’d know old fossil. So the three names, no games, if you don’t mind and I’ll stand corrected
Feltus wasn’t forthcoming .. just two brothers and their girlfriends .. perhaps you could give him a ring and ask him yourself. The statement one of the men made concerning their sighting appears to have been lost, joining the Rubaiyat, the suitcase and its contents.
Peteb: second thoughts, I’m sure you’re going to end up three witnesses short, not including Doc O’Donahue? that is. Apologise without delay and l may let you off the hook lightly. Default or pursuance of any further disrespectful act would not only invoke a harsh retort to the accusory “wrong again” barb, depending on the type of retraction or lack thereof as the case may be, will determine whether additional even harsher measures be in order. Ball’s in your court mugger!
DM: Rudolph Mons, Jack Keane, Rollo Thomson and Roy Webb all perished in 1943; three in air crashes two of them within a couple of days. No shortage of Rudolph Mons, one a Vicar cum property manager from Qld late twenties and another born 1913 same year as your Fritz, who was checked in with American customs 1943 NY as you’d be aware. Apart from being a spitting image double for SM according to Gemini, the pair most probably had something else in common. Can you guess?
DM: bit of a favour if you have time on your hands checking with your military personel records authorities in UK. I’ve exhausted all avenues in tracking down convicted raudster Henry de La Fargue Salomonson 5/5/1905 UK, Royal Hamshire Regt. (bother John also) WW2. Like Rudy Mons I can’t find him dead and I strongly suspect that he was in Adelaide early post war, as was younger brother john. There is no photo of either brother but, one of father Johanne as a young militia recruit is a double bunger for a recent colour portrait of SM aged around twenty by Teresa Cowley. thanks JS
Hi Clive, that really you. Sure must have been plenty of hungry folks walking up the Alvington steps to buy a pasty fr
off the familiar cart vendor, would have a good view of anybody lying against the break wall. That’s according to John Moss in his account of events on the night and whilst he mentioned 7.00pm, it has been noted elswhere that youth parties went on long into the night during summer. You’ll not be forgetting Pete there was also a well dressed middle aged chap seen at the overlook by Strops and his squeeze during their attendance. They saw him looking down from the street railing above, as if keeping an eye out for anything amiss, and so probably stayed on after they
left at around 8pm.
around 8pm.
…sorry about that Admin, me and my device are not getting any younger.
Peteb: False pretenders don’t have anything to offer that would interest me and that means you too mugger, but thanks for the advice, along with the lame excuse re the no show beach sighting spotter and his two lady companions, only three
altogether according to Don. If I were to get Feltus’ opinion on anything, it’d likely be about his knowledge of the suitcase present presence and whether it’s likely to be where it was twenty years ago when the two Unknown Man book photos were taken. Know what I mean?
No. 1 @ TBt….in re initial police response ie.,”But they knew that wasn’t where he died”. How so mugger? wasn’t until Coroner Cleland made an offhand reference to other possibilities such as your suggestion. Then seven decades later Peteb picked it up and ran with it, adding more embellishments in order to lay claim of ownersip to various imaginative hypotheses, eg., body swaps and/or shifting to X marks the spot from 91a Moseley St.
Clive: is that really you? if so, you amaze me in that you’ve been on this case forever and like your partner in grime, still know only what you are told to.
From the onset the death was treated like any other where the bod of a middle aged man was found in a public place with no means or identity or signs of having been physically harmed. In other words he was to the attending police just your average bloke who’d died in his sleep of natural causes or by self destruction in much the same manner as many other loners. Reason that no fuss was made over him in situ by first attenders was, simply put, for those very reasons hence no real need for photo shoots of the death scene which be likely to spoil the day’s beach attendance. Wasn’t until local rags made newsworthy copy later in the day and by it was too late for the ghoul show anyway. Wasn’t til six weeks later when Dets. Brown and Leane came on the scene with the suitcase find that things took off and became a cause celebre. The fact that Brown had only his detective badge and his partner was by then an over the hill street suit and not destined for his own office at Angas St. That was in itself a clear sign that the upper level nobs of Sapol CIB including Lionel’s brother Det. Inspector Geoffrey Leane, were not too concerned.
That’s just the way things pan out with everyday non stressful police work my man. Thought our old mate over the way ex Det. Insp. Cramer would have told you how it really was to be a dispensable everyday plod. I loved it.
No. 1@ Tbt…you forgot to tell us that Doris Bertha Fanny Elliott had been shot dead ata morhett vale farm house and that Durham from Glenelg CIB attended with investigating homicide officers to take the crime scene shots as evidence for her murder charges against her husband. A little different than a dead man found lying on a city beach and there being no suggestion of foul play or messing with the body or property, wouldn’t you say? you too Clive?
JS: A body is a body no matter where it is found/seen. If photographs are only taken at the scene, where foul play is suspected, isn’t there a risk, in not taking photos of missing something? For the cost of a couple of photos it must be worth the effort?
No. 1 @ Tbt….looks like Bluey S. got to make the Thanksgiving Day flight out of SFO (SanFrancisco) on time it being the last Thursday in November so things must have
been chaotic in the terminal area, holiday flts. being delayed or cancelled without notice. Would seem his bags, got intercepted or else were loaded onto the wrong flight in all the holiday confusion, not to mention the inclement weather. As for “The Man from Uncle”, he being an experienced OS “courier” must have been well familiar with climatic variables, hence the tailor made feather stitched jacket worn over a knitted cardigan, along with comfortable form fitting briefs (slightly soiled). Pitty in a way that SM was picked up by the never fail Boxall cousins (assassins) on arrival in Sydney and that his undoing was solely the fault of Pan Am Airlines Ltd.. End game being effected the following Tuesday 30th, dead on time more or less!
Rather than to critique the man’s shortcomings, which for once I can agree with,
It’s his ‘long comings’ that you should be paying more notice of as indeed I have.
No shortage of Stuey’s humble self analysis of commuter programing and design skills at home and abroad. All pointing to super easy cut & paste potential In the particular area that you and your boys be so all fired up over, namely grandfather Norm’s family album. You’ll be surprised what comes back if you just put a name up on any one of a thousand on line ‘Find a top AT Techo’ sites and prepare to be gob smacked.
Clive: maybe be so, maybe not, but I can imagine Sapol Illford film supplies being in short supply in the out stations like Seaton where Det. Sgt. Harry Strangway was stationed when called to attended the scene of yet another unsuspicious stiff on Somerton Beach.
No.1# @ Tbt…had us a tip from Pat & @AT that Carl Webb was likely to have been Transgender, ‘shim’ in the Aussie. vernacular. Going on that, I’m thinking it might be a useful addition when delving through ’48 Pan Am passenger records, if you include Carla or Charline in your search field. While doing so, it might pay to check 25/11/48 ANA manifests as well, they having been competitors with Pan American on the Vancouver/sydney via San F. alternative route their main selling point being ‘Captain’s Table’ cuisine eg. Thanksgiving Turkey with cranberry sauce, plus their frequent flyer bonus concessions and free piss, from memory.
…as a clincher for undeniable odds of your SM? having used BCPA (ex ANA) as opposed to rival Pan Am for his mission, by late ’48 they had taken delivery of four full sleeper pressurised DC 6, whereas the former only had a few clapped out non pressurised, low budget DC 4s with slung hammocks for it’s cargo of war brides & soviet agents to cross the Pacific in any sort of comfort.
Is, was there any connection with Julie Webb, the lady who helped find the family Webb ‘musty album’ and DA?
Peteb: think it’s Juille Webb and a daughter of Norman from memory; so she be a woman of a certain age and is the family historian. Also a close confidant of Stuart and Christie, either their mother or more likely an aunt.
No. 1 # @ Tbt…depending on whether he took the Pan Am or the BCPA flight, on finding his luggage missing, rather than spend a night in sorry Sydney, he might have been better off going to Melbourne (Essendon) on an ANA domestic and booking into the the Australia Hotel there. Next morning he could walk into the city centre, pick himself up a second hand Bonegilla migrant port for a song and shop for new clobber and toiletries inc. a glass dish, to set himsef up for the Overlander choo choo to Adelaide that same evening; coal strike cancellation notwithstanding.
….as a sweetener for flying ANA….FREE PERSONAL ACCIDENT INSURANCE
Every passenger travelling by A.N.A. is automatically insured free of charge for an amount of £2000 in the event of loss of life. No formalities of signing documents etc., are required for A.N.A’s personal Accident Insurance cover. The policy covers all eventualities of the journey with £2000 payable in event of death and ancillary benefits on a sliding scale. (Death by means other than by accident not included JS)
Lets see if’n your Pan Am life coverage of $2000 US can compete with £2000 Aud.
circa. 1948 (1usd = 5bob). Not forgetting the DC 4 Globmaster’s shocking accident record compared with safe’n sound right off the production line DC 6 Liftmaster.
Peteb: on your new quest for “Who was they?” behind SM’s demise, am I on the mark in thinking “they” be some rag head affiliation of middle eastern stamp. My reckoning is based on your accompanying Arabic tombstone thread pic., or is that merely a ruse to lead us astray. I guess most punters would be full bottle on post war squabbles in Palestine prior to Jewish independence and subsequent cease fire agreement of 30th November 1948. That being precurser to enabling the Israeli Shai AMAN (Haganah) operatives to initiate state authorised executions of their enemies with tacit UN impunity. Could it be Peteb in that now @ A.1 # has changed your mind about facebook Charlie being SM, you’re now back on the trail of a particular deep cover ex nazi V2 rocket man. I think GC has the same fellow in mind, so don’t waste time discussing the pros & cons or he’ll slip under your guard.
like a slimey eel.
Peteb: the ticket was marked as being the last from the day before, a Monday.
The 10.50 am to Henley Beach that SM was intending to take according to Feltus, was cancelled and re scheduled for 11.52 am according to the Advertiser. He may not have been informed at time of purchase, no reason was likely given anyway. No subsequent journeys were affected, and Det. Feltus knew FA about this strange event. The concourse ‘double star’ booth vender Doug Townsend was ex airforce and smart a whip; in later years becoming a big time Harley St. shrink and author from memory. Such a pity that neither Sapol nor latter day sleuths ever thought to look him up before he up and died in 2020, taking his secrets if any with him to his grave at Hahndorf (Aust. nazi party HQ 1930s).
Peteb: regarding Dr. Douglas Townsend above, who served six month in Vietnam treating PTSD cases of which he was foremost in the field. I think Doug knew more than he was compelled to say in evidence at the inquest ie., FA your Excllency. So here’s the deal. I’ve found his son Chris in Mt. Barker up the Adelaide Hills, have his address and phone number too. I can either call him and take my chances that he fills me in on his dads stories of the interaction with SM back in 1948. Alternatively, you could instruct one of your smooth talking Adelaide based agents to call on the bloke at his shop. That would be more professional and thus likely to bear fruit if there’s any left on the tree. You’ve got two to pick from, or you could have both Clive and Adrian do a bit of heavy lifting if he puts up a wall. What do you reckon, wanna take Tbt from the bottom rung to top of the heap in one fowl [sick] swoop. I’m thinking before Christmas and lads could do a Stuey Littlemore with a slab of Coopers for a sweetener.
…bit of a blooper, another’s fault naturally, re Doug Townsends medical credential.
He started outs as a draftsman according to his Airforce records then after after the war he went to schhol and after graduation became a a resident at RAH, later becoming a surgeon. Seems he went to UK late mid 50s for further experience and
earned his specialty in cancer surgery advances. During his later six months stint in Vietnam he operated in a civilian hospital, then worked in PNG before returning to Adelaide to continue his work at RAH and take up a senior lecturing position at Adelaide University. There are some other tricky things about his upbringing that are best left out though not suspicious in any way; apparently he was respected and well liked and had a large family before passing at 95.
Clive: if you’ve been following No. 1’s Pan Am narrative, it would seem most likely that his SM traveller did indeed have the lost suitcase returned, presumably prior to his departure from Spencer St. Melburne aboard the Overlander to Adelaide, evening of 29 Nov. ’48. Evidence of same being in presence of certain items of SM’s US apparel and signs of the telltale Pan Am sticker on the ‘left’ suitcase at Adelaide station cloakroom.
JohnS .. thanks for the gesture old fruit, but I kind of like being at the bottom of Cracker’s heap, down there with Dome, and where is the lad lately? Don’t tell me his own poor rating has disinvigorated him.
No.1 #…normal looking middle aged feller, busy weekday attire including hat and glasses, fronts up at a railway ticket booth or hands over his fare to the city bus conductor aint likely to be remembered unless he has some physicsl impairment, says something odd, has a speech impediment or drops his Staminas and does a song & dance act, doesn’t stand out in a crowd, even by Adelaide standards. As for the reconstructed newspaper photo image, people did actually come forward quite early, one being an ex serviceman of Glenelg who was able to give a name card ID to police (acted upon but not followed up zfeltus). No surprises noted in Tbt’s ‘the SM man what wasn’t’ headliner; that’s what we’re here for, to pursue and solve an all but clueless body identity mystery! I’m still confident, but could use some help. How about you?
Might be of some passing interest that by 1946, the FBI had processed over 100 million cards in files maintained manually.They included criminal conviction cards that had been transferred from Leavenworth Penitentiary back to Washington, DC, in October 1923. In 1947, the FBI’s one fingerprint repository was moved from the Washington DC Armory Building to a new a building at 2nd and D Sts. Southwest Washington, DC…Hope that this little bit of trivia might resolve any differences of opinion applicable to where SM’s own fingerprints were wired to in December 48.
Peteb: think you’re about to be shit canned on your Leavenworth FBI FP Register blooper, can’t be helped. Here’s a good one you can run with and have fun with!
“Charlie” in the family pic is far more likely to be left handed like his brother Roy.
SM on the beach 7.00 pm 30/11/48 is far more likely to be right handed than left.
@JS
Don’t LH’ers sign their name differently?
There must be quite a few army Webbs to compare. They were all trained to write the same way in school.
DM: I would like to have had access to the rest of Roy’s NAA file that is strangely lacking an induction physical clearance. No matter, fortunately there being all but conclusive proof that he was left handed, so too his brother “Charlie” along family trait lines. In the past I have often alluded to the likelihood that Somerton Man indeed favoured his right.hand, and for much the same reason. I’ll give you a little time to liase with your AI entity? to see if you can, as a team, work it out, as I was able to do with help from what intelligence I was born with.
You’ve missed an opportunity, slim I’ll own. No matter I can spare a dong or two to make the call young Townsend. As for Dome, your guess is as good as mine, not forgetting Newscorp owns Charles Webb lock stock an barrel, and that includes all those who signed on for a share of the spoils back in July ’22. Seems that you and Gordon were not considered for inclusion; as for me, my loyalty to Somerton Man is not for sale and I’m extra cautious when venturing from my compound.
Peteb: a typical Tbt move of now you see it now you don’t, eh old bean? Where did you get that Leavenworth bollocks from? GF I suspect. Even a loyal stooge like No. 1 # wasn’t gonna take your lambast lying down, feller still has his dignity to uphold and who could blame him for the well worded payback..and the result as expected.
Well done No. 1.
No. 1 # @ Tbt: I’ve suggested on several occasions over many moons that SM’s ORIGINAL SIGNED fingerprint ‘card’ should be subjected to more modern analysis methodology and updated for comparison as appropriate. I’m not convinced at all that FBI chief J Edgar Hoover signed off personally on the Dec. ’48 prints; For one he was on furlough in Florida with “company” at that time, whatsmore why would the head honcho be reporting a no trace FP result to a lowly A/Sgt. in the far flung antipodes of all places. Might have made sense to Abbott, Feltus and the Inner Sanctimonious clique, but I think not to some out there with suspicious feelings on the whole affair… that I’m hard pressed to name off hand.
but not others that we could name eh?
Clive: while we’re still on SM’s left suitcase, guess it won’t harm Tbt No. 1’s Pan Am flight and subsequent mislaid luggage yarn, to remind that said suitcase was infact a travel port of 43cm × 15cm x 30cm, not a suitcase technically speaking, such as might fit comfortably in the cabin overhead locker of a DC 4 Globemaster. I’ll leave you chaps to sort out whether SM’s original kit was more substantial and of a size that needed to be stowed in the cargo bay, or might he also have had a smaller bag that he managed to retain on arrival at Mascot.
Johnno, lest I be accused of bending the truth, and in order to qualify the Leavenworth / FBI connection .. the truth of the matter is that Leavenworth held a trove of prisoner fingerprints unmatched at the time and the Feds took advantage of such ..
Peteb: fair enough, noted…
Clive: as for the folded foil, no it couldn’t have been with the lost baggage as you suggest. In fact it showed up in the railway ‘port’ (ptp) along with his other hand tools of trade, which he had stowed in the Pan Am DC 4 overhead locker and later transferred to the second port purchased in Sydney, along with new clothing and accoutrements as described.
AI: Whether or not No.1’s Pan Am deal be real, or merely pie in the sky delusion, one thing that didn’t require imagination to get right with regularity, be that Somerton Man was not Charles Webb. That’s unless somehow he managed to change from being left to right handed, chances of which be Buckley’s and SFA as you’ll find for yourself, if you’re as smart s entity as you think you are.
No.1 #: Nashville you say. Isn’t that where the ties were purchased? So looks like he he’d had all four stuffed down into his jocks (slightly soiled) when he went through Sydney (Mascot) Customs gate on the day after Thanksgiving. Question arises then, what might have been the likely significance if any? The plot thickens.
…So, what we have here be that our illegal SM from Stateside aboard the Pan Am flt out of SFA likely had his stash in one of three, if not all three places dedicated to clandestine methods of secretion namely, the internal tie lining cavities; plus two more that I have had cause to mention in past posts with no interest noted ie., the trouser belt gusset linings (sans elastabelt) and of course the Jockey underbriefs mit patent concealed piss flap and fake Kiwi tan BP skid mark, applied to resemble a wet fart in order to deter any hand search for concealed micro film etc.
Peteb: right you are again mugger. Walter James Webb of Glenelg died in France 1917, not by any “happenstance” nor by “coincidence” but by “by enemy action”.
Having done initial CM research on death by suicide of Frederick Alexander Webb
some years ago, I wasn’t surprised to see the name come up for mention on Tbt.
In 1941 poor wee Fred still suffered the after effects of mustard gassing, ruptured induinal hernia, testicular swelling syndrome and penal warts he’d picked up on leave in London post war. Such a combination, all war caused might drive a bloke of his slight stature to taking his life, especially when his new business venture
went arse up. When you get sick and tired of FA you’ll find another Charlie Webb, a pastry cook, living on the Esplinade back towards Jetty Road who would fit right in
with your latest theory on relativity.
Peteb: anyhow, what do you mean by two Webbs dead on Somerton Beach. If one the you’re referring to from 1948 who has of today never been identified, then I can give several quick points of departure between him (lets call him SM) and the manner of death with F. Webb who died from drowning and SM from heart failure; Webb was found near the shore, evidence being that a Shark had taken off part of his right arm off shore, whilst SM was high and dry and only notable injuries being slight scratches between his right hand knuckles. Webb was quickly identified on the first day after recovery; SM is still waiting to be named after 76 years. Whilst Webb was found to have taken a light dose of veronal (hypnotic) medication, SM was found not to have any common drug in his system at the time of post mortem
That should suffice for the time being; so all things considered what’s the link pray tell?.