Misc Stuff

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1882 thoughts on “Misc Stuff

  1. your website is asom

  2. lyrabela on March 27, 2017 at 3:14 pm said:

    Is there a thread about the K4 cipher? What about McCormick’s cipher (I know this one though has a lot of debate if its actually a cipher or not)?

  3. lyrabela: as a rule, I don’t cover unsolved ciphers whose creators are still alive, or where the solution is known by one or more people but has not not yet been publicly disclosed – hence I’m not that interested in Kryptos / K4 just yet.

    Ricky McCormick is an interesting topic, though:
    http://ciphermysteries.com/2013/03/12/ricky-mccormicks-two-mysterious-notes
    http://ciphermysteries.com/2016/04/12/ricky-mccormicks-notes-for-6th-graders

  4. Joni on June 14, 2018 at 9:29 am said:

    Could it be possible that

    NCBE = (means) BE NICE

  5. Joni: given that NCBE appears so many times, it would make Ricky McCormick a very nice person indeed. 😉

  6. I’m looking at a stone inscription reading OUOSVAVV and framed by D and a M. The Shugborough Inscription.
    Can’t find it on a query (bit like steganography) but I like the way to two Vs look like a W – reminds me of a code in another topic.

  7. Peteb: If it helps; The D and the M could stand for ‘Detritus Matter’ and the crap between, may very well be just that….How about..’Over Use Of Salad Vegies And Vine Vinegar’?..

  8. Dusty, the drover’s dog. Gitonback.

  9. Gordon: Share this with Clive for a possible tie in with your Bayard LeRoy King file. Capt? Maurice Paul Charles Bellemans U.S. Navy Ret. ex 7th Fleet Brisbane Qld. 1942/43 (18mths), was charged with high range DUI in Adelaide 2/49. Claimed in court to have spent 19 years Singapore as contract engineer and been in Australia four months with no mention of his war service. Post WW2 background suggests Clan.Int. sanction boss for SE Asia region until late sixties, with cover as retired yachtsman out of Berkeley California, Hawaii, HK and Singas etc. with Oz high roller equine connections in S.A. I Can expand if interested, but I have no intentions to follow up for my own home grown SM inquiries.

  10. Peteb: You must admit that alleged connections between one dead body on an Adelaide beach on 1/12/48, does not a summer make, nor likely on it’s own, to draw many crabs of the red spy variety per se. Of course, whilst our boss’s view has been to leave clandestine input in the SM case, to blogs such as TS/ BS that prefer an Int. Ops. based involvement scenario, it does not mean that others in the Pelling camp (muppets), are totally opposed to a bit of the old ‘tinker tailor soldier spy’ lurk…Now take for instance my latest offering of M.P.C Bellemans, the fake retired WW2 US Navy Captain, who sets up shop in top-end Adelaide with a bevy of bimbos and perhaps his man Friday Arthur, just a month or so before SM. There can’t be much doubt that this man’s timely arrival, coinciding with the likes of Stepto and son from MI6/GCHQ whatever, could suggest Soviet intelligence agent placement; That, or he simply knew nothing of the visitors or their mission, merely arriving with his US Navy Liason spin at the same time by pure chance. He being the consumate self styled confidence man, coming to see if he could make a quid or two off the yokels in such a dead hole, which I strongly doubt…. It’d be nice if some competent paper trail researcher could step up to the plate and give this creepy man and his fancy dames, a run through the old sheilas mags like Woman’s Monthly, along with the high end boating, yachting and equestrian publications for a literal Bellemans smorgasbord. That’s merely my own, always ‘open to any new weird leads’ point of view, so others can chose to follow the new intelligence if it presents, or simply bury their heads in the Somerton Beach sand…. PS. Maurice and partner Ray died within months of each other at Adelaide in ’83. They had been living at Larggs and were cremated at Enfield. Such is life, after a long career in the Soviet secret service or Mossad perhaps.

  11. The Bellemans couple passed in 1993 not ’83, both being aged 83 apparently.

  12. Precocious – I never thought to use that word until today.

  13. peteb: Dunno sport. I’d be pretty happy with 83…and by the way, if he was a spook, his backers didn‘t let anyone in on the funeral details.

  14. Flash: “Bakewell pasties – Theos fish cafe – Community centre – Jessica. Another alternate list of Glenelg hasbeens”?..

  15. Strapps Stripes: Bleak House – Thespians Society – Com ba yah Party – Danetta. One more impromptu list of James Ellwood Wannabee quickies for Xmas cheer.

  16. A big happy 100th birthday to ex Detective Len Brown. Wasn’t for the likes of him and his boss Leon Leane, we latter day, ever confidentl SM sleuths, would have little to do with our free time….If you have anything you want to get off your mind Super, such as the trick with the book and T/S slip; perhaps, we’d like to hear from you; Also your best wise centenarian’s guess on the man’s ID. The old gent surely deserves to have one for his own 115th birthday and your input might provide the vital clue.

  17. Flash: How’s about Jess’s big brother Ted Harkness MID for your Russian soviet ship counter mate?. RAN CPO and senior telegraphy coms. operator aboard HMAS Shropshire from 1942 until Tamam Shud, with 7th fleet ops out of Brisbane, and all points north to Tokyo Bay by my reckoning…You really seem to be rattling the cage with such a celebrious mob of ratbag anti reds, the likes of William Simpson and an equally wild bunch of lunatics. All of them pompous, former General Staffers and raving right/white extremist ex choco commanders, now giving loyal service to Judge Bill’s old school pal and ironically El Supremo Commie-in-Chief, A.G Herbert Evatt himself. It’s quite obvious that our own lad SM had no chance against such a determined crew of ruthless killers. All alone there at Somerton Beach in his spit polished Oxford brogues, striped brown Stamina Crusaders and Yankee feather stitched, double breasted jacket, armed with two combs and a punched bus ticket. No contest in my view, so yet anther soviet threat successfully countered.

  18. Flash PS: Actually, I doubt very much whether your Lt. Col. N.W. Simpson was ever known to Doc. Evatt, or as being head sherang of the so called ‘Association’. That figure was most certainly Brig.William (Bill) Simpson of Marrickville, the one I mentioned as having gone to school with the great man…Nice photo though.

  19. Flash: I acknowledge your stuff-up with the other joker and agree to Colin Simpson’s pre war (post perhaps) association with Blamey and the ‘White Army’ brigade. However my chap William Ballantyne Simpson, Evatt’s Director General of Australian National Security and Radio Coms. was continually a thorn in his boss’s side due to his post war communist insurgency reports. I do think he, not Colin, is more likely to be your main intended link to Soviet spy doings and I might mention that your secret Ace-in-t’hole’ Bob Wake, who dismantled the listening devices at ‘Terror’, worked under him. This was during the war and well before Bob started up his as yet unamed ‘The Show’ in late ’48 just pre SM. Reid became the nominal head of the new organisation which ‘he’ named ASIO in ’49, to my knowledge, and so you might do well to go back and make any adjustments deemed appropriate, to your last post…Cheers and a HNY to you, Clive and Anonymous…

  20. Flash: Not exactly sure about why we should conclude that Russian radio or even telegraphic intercepts of Australian troop movements in February ’42 would be tantamount to warlike acts of espionage. After all Aussies were trading with their soviet allies in all sorts of agricultural produce and even L/L war materiels, so non nefarious coded ship to ship radio traffic would not take but a tick to reach the relevant ports of Vladivostok, Odessa and Archangel in the normal course of maritime communications. Actually the red ship to ship radio/tele? traffic was deliberately targeted and deciphered for some time, from listening posts in NZ, possibly during the non aggressiin pact early days of the war….While I have your ear mate, pray tell what goes with this Bill Moulds chappy; He seems to have come to the fore totally out of left field, having no SM qualifications and seemingly for no reason other than his middle name is which is somewhat ambitious, If you don’t mind me saying it. I would further hasten to add that he signs ‘Jestyn’ with their being no similarity whatsover to the verse 70 signature….Have you decided on whether to include my William Ballintyne Simpson in your interesting, though nebulous ‘White Army’ report at some a point. I recall that it was Bill’s information, likely obtained through your very own Colin Simpson’s doings that allerted Canberra to the soviet/jap intercepts on the final PNG and upcoming Borneo operational strategies. Timing of course would have coincided with the krauts finally twigging as to why their ultra five reeler was no longer paying dividends, but not having the heart to tell their little zip axis mates from the east that they’d been sussed.

  21. Flash: You did say 41, then I mistakenly replied ’42, naturally thinking of a troop ship being re-routed to the Middle East via Freemantle due to the imminent fall of Singapore (15/2). You didn’t mention the name of your ship, nor any detail about Russian civil radio getting the confirmed arrival details from the intercept wrong. It does suggests some intelligence stuff up with the sailing agenda, but no harm done in the long run and looks like a 7th division troop reinforcement draft, was fortunate that they didn’t sail a week earlier.

  22. john sanders on January 4, 2019 at 11:51 am said:

    Flash: Hey, no fair man; You promised to share. No matter, we have deduced what the standout capital ‘E’ cursive represents. ‘Quo Fas Et Gloria Du Cunt‘ (suc) or Ginger Beer in Oz speak. Is that about right?..

  23. Nick: Thanks for the Misc Stuff diversion apropos totally unrelated matters and thanks to Strapps Stripes (Peteb) for bringing it to our notice. I’m luvin it!…

  24. Flash: Right you are with Dottie. The cute saying has been around for as long as I have, even a tad longer in your case. It’s Just that it had become my by-word for a description of the general lines of discussion between folks the likes of Stripes, Clive, two young Nth American gals, Anon. and of course your good self. Nothing wrong with it I guess, but just like ‘question time’ in the S.A. Lower House, boringly predictable. Cheers mate…

  25. sunandshadow on February 15, 2019 at 6:10 am said:

    Does anyone know of an online community where people CREATE ciphers and codexes?

  26. Flash: There has been much across the board enthusistic applause to your enthralling revelations re: W.J.Moulds OBE and his now confirmed links to the dual language Boxall ROK with it’s fascinating secret inclusions. I note that the initial release of his ‘Officer’s Record of Service’ document reveals little more than the man’s name, rank and serial number, with the telltale signature of course, but little more. Have you subscribed to having Major Mould’s main WW2 file pulled for evaluation as you proposed doing quite a while back; There seems to have been a delay in its release; shades of a possible classified security intervention, which hopefully you can clear through your own AfIO ties. In the interim I have made inquiries regarding your former Water Transport officer’s rather mundane post service architectural career, but I’m much looking forward to exposing links to his old 12 Small Ships crony Alf Boxall which would be as icing on the SM spy cake for you, Stripes and ever dutiful Clive.

  27. Flash: I’d never be one to pour water on your work old melon, but this Mosquito analogy seems a little over the top. I guess it would be just like the navy to identify vulnerable parts of the aircraft and simply apply four inch ships armour over those areas without coming to terms with the original design concept. I’m wondering if you are cognizant (your swabbies obviously were not), of the fact that the mighty Mosquito was, apart from it’s engine, mounts, undercarriage, fuel tanks and armaments, for all intents and purposes, primarily of timber and coated fabric construction. That in fact was the whole idea of it’s remarkable success eg. lightness and cheaper composite components allowed for higher performance along with better manouvrebility at lower cost outlay and greater overall service economy…Can’t see how the RN got involved, as they only had a few Mk. 39 slicks used for target towing. Far as I recall the Aussie and Canuck bomber/fighter variants were much alike, but used available timbers ie. spotted gum as opposed to spruce for the frame components and similar for the local plywood fuselage moulding…Reminds me, any news on B.J. Moulds of verse 70 fame. Cheers js

  28. Gordon: Of course your mark XV111 ‘Tse Tse’ variant was developed and used in its primary specialised roll of a submarine hunter and as such was was said to have been fitted with the additional armour you have specified ie. engine cowlings, nose and under-cockpit to counter effects of devestating submarine deck gun fire. This had nothing to do with Abe Wald’s mathematically configurated extra armour, as fitted to American all metal bombers as protection from high altitude attack and air burst ground flack. To reiterate my earlier stated contention, the main problem for the Mosquito pathfinders operating over Germany, throughout the intense bombing campaigns ’43 to ’45 was their inherent vulnerabilty to ground flack due to their complete absence of armour. Same applied to the Mosquito bombers and fighters of all marks with regard to dealing with enemy aircraft in air combat, in which case their speed, maneuveabilty and superior height ceiling due to lightness, could in many cases, effectively overcome the odds and get them home safely…..Not narking you old mate, but there seems to be a complete absence of anything even remotely related to Tamam Shud in your recent posts, which is why your thread responses have been relegated to the rarely visited miscellaneous department. If you could work your way back towards the general SM themes that you covered so well before your facination with micro writing you might have broken the back of this investigation by now, possibly on your own professional abilities…By the way you’re giving Len Brown more credit than is either fair or due to the man in recent claims for his description of ‘micro writing’ beneath the code. He was merely refering to the diminutive size of the figures of a single phone number, nothing more than that, and somewhat doubtful in any case if Derick had an input in the claim.

  29. Flash: PS: Please pardon my impertinace but, as the tired old fighter pilot joke contends, “The Fokker was a ruddy Messerschmitt”. In other words your shot up Mosquito profile doesn’t quite come up to muster for the type or any variants that I’m aware of, especially with the long Mitsubishi nose and give away Nippon top mid gun turret that aint no Mossie, that I’m familiar with, ever had. My advice to you my well meaning (I’m sure) friend, is to disappear the related, though subject unrelated, post altogether and stick to things more within your particular field of expertise ie. highly imaginative espionage concepts.

  30. Flash: ….”Make me smile” indeed indeed…Caught out because of three wrongly depicted ‘second world war bombers’ is no time for mirth. Of course your needle nosed navy Sea Hornet (Mosquito in drag) circa. 1955 was real though irrelevant. It had no turret and seems to have missed hostilities by a decade. Then of course, honest Abe Wald, your man “who helped win the second world war without firing a shot” (Hollings) was long dead, as was his countryman and likely old college mate Tibor Kaldor. The article that I think you have mostly quoted from, concerns the clever suspected nazi, inspecting B29s returning from bombing missions over Europe which would have been impossibke, shot to the proverbial shithouse (swiss cheese) no less, which likewise could not have been….Do you really want me to continue mate?..Got a grin on my face like a Cheshire cat just writing about your untenable position, if you really want to know. I’ll go hunt for that missing Mosquito turret when I recover and get back and appolgise IF applicable tee hee. PS. Don’t hold your breath mate, might soil the old Staminas.

  31. Flash: Nice little joust there sport. Didn’t have to end badly for you, which was not my intention and of course retaliatory verbal insults have always been your forte when confronted with your obvious limited subject knowledge. Abuse can be a two way street my friend and I’m more than willing to join in, with some relish as you are by now familiar…PS: Your having brought up past presumed sleights to your self esteem ie. Sydney Harbour at Taylor’s Bay, is quite laughable and reminds me of how you even managed to get ..’It (the bell) tolls for thee’ barb totally at odds with it’s meaning and intent, thereby exposing your inadequate command of English as ‘she’ is oft times ‘spoke’ in prose…to err is only human, and making excuses for ones mistakes ensures that we might live to blunder once again. Cheers mate, js.

  32. The plot thickens, with startling new revelations concerning a child conceived out of wedlock in Oct. ’46 between none other than storming the storming lieutenant, Alfred Boxall, jestin from the islands, and his adoring pocket sized nympho nurse from RNSH, who’s brought her part namesake Maj Bill Jestyn Moulds OBE along for an intriguing ROK book signing fiasco. Something to do with opium dens and 70 malays running amok at some oasis tent town called Taman Shudder, deep in Nahuatl country south of the border on route to Mexico (gotcha).

    That’s not all folks; some crazy mafia hitman, Danetta is on the rampage scattering tiny writing hither and thither to thwart police inquiries and contaminate all other physical evidence of Murder at the Rue Morgue. This in order to suggest unlawful collusion between two alien suicide suspects known to be embeded therein; Not only on a Sunday, a deliberate mark of disrespect to deceased persons of A & TSI descent but also properly accredited disabled visitors checking out the stiffs. There’s Littlemore to add except to say that Alf appeared to give the hole game away when interviewed by a specialist perk jock for ‘Aunty’ TV, some forty odd unproductive years after the fact…. Of course all the headliners, along with the not so dearly departed bit players are mostly gone to their (hardly) eternal rest. In which case some of our more senior investigators will undoubtedly pursue them beneath high ground for answers, which most assuredly won’t take another forty years, rest assured!!…Just love this Misc. site, all thanks to me mate peteb.

  33. Stripes: Dunno. Usually not before your crafty angler decides to set his barb, would be my best guess. Though I’ve heard tell that some snakeheads don’t get the message until they’re in the pan gutted, scaled and half cooked. Why would you be asking two dogs f……?

  34. Not for the first time, and hopefully not for the last, I find myself agreeing to some extent with Tomsbytwo’s umpteenth post on the life and times of Ina Harvey nee Elliott. Gerry, our lately silent whistleblower in the Freeman/Francis saga, contends that the old tart was having a lend of us with her fanciful Strathmore stranger incident, which coming from our, at times forgetful SM biographer is fairly mean. To counter this bias, I’d say that such an intriguing yarn, involving innocent attentions paid to a lady of a certain profession, by a handsome well mannered stranger, might just be too fanciful “not to be true”…. We could go on for yonks about the Dr. Jeckle’s black gladstone bag and it’s solitary ‘needlelike’ thingo and not make any further mileage out of it. However when y’man talks about the gift of perfumed talc to the desk girl, that surely reeks of some fancy foreign deal that even the whimpiest local ‘sentemental bloke’ would have no truck with; cept on speshal casions like when li’le sister Sal had her first red scare at 11…..As for the rest, concerning clandestine lurkings in the hotel vestibule and such, we’d first have to tie in the as yet inncoent ‘minding me own f’n business cob’ alien, with our actual inquiry but sorry sir nithingbto report. Even if the old duffer had provided some deportment detail or description of clothing or whether he was a cleanskin, but sadly nada on that front either….. I seem to recall that Ina used to always reek of lavender powder scent, which put me in mind of my grandma who went and got herself flattened by the Eastwood bus coming home from ‘lousy housie’ at Parramatta one night in ’64. Yet our grand old dame from the Strathy, reckoned, in her tell all, tell f..k all deposition of 1959 that she never opened her treasured gift from ‘a gentleman’ and still actually had it somewhere safe at home. It could well have contained evidence of real importance, such as uranium oxide dust or spare trimmed Tamam Shud slips in aspic fir all we know, which is now sadly lost. Not only to us, but also to abscentFeltus and the many other hard working Somerton Man contenders.

  35. Stripes: aka “Nickolas nobody from Byron Bay”. Some Swede had, by 1930 or so, relocated his Federal match company to Grafton NSW in order to be nearer source materials grown in a forest area named for the large new enterprise…..Now what does that all have to do with Const. Moss, Murray Farquar, Coroner Cleland, Detective Leane and the latter’s own well detailed quarter box (15) of Victorian made Bryant & May matches? You may ask, and with sound reason too…..Had there been any matches at all, is the question your team have obsessively argued long and hard, shrewdly well knowing that therein, always lay an important piece of evdence, long overlooked, but at last unravelled. Of course you figured, and correctly so. that every one’s favourite polceman, was unlikey to have bothered even mentioning the particular brand name and its contents (15 sticks) had there not been been a very sound relevant logic involved. As for John Moss, well, there were several very important things that he omitted to mention in his statement, the matches being one….A quarter pack of Brymay Red Heads would have told the Leane team much about where SM had likely hailed from and even whence at a pinch. Certainly not NSW where the competition Federal match brand had had a monopoly for decades, but most likely Melbourne and on Monday 30/11/48, according to the 45 heads allready expended by 7.30pm the following day. He had almost certainly arrived at Adelaide that morning in a smoking carriage of the daily ‘overlander’ train from Melbourne, which would accord with everthing we’ve been told by the newspapers of the day…..Care to add anything Nicholas from Long Bay.

  36. Flash: Bill Moulds came through at last and well worth the twenty bucks I’d say. Everything is perpectly clear now about his guise, though well secreted within the file as you point out. With my week eyes, I can’t for the life of me find anything regarding involvement in the Returned Services League, or his secondment to 8th Water Tpt. I’m also battling to find any specific reference to “outstanding bravery’ in his M/OBE citation which seems only to deal with devotion to duty over a long period in a non combat organisational role. Apart from the 25 page file which you will probably need more time with to dig out a hidden agenda, I do indeed indeed wonder why the mongrel went to so much trouble to disguise his normal signature under the ROK verse 70. Fine work by the way and I look forward to the follow-up with gleeful relish. PS: Other evidence of this man’s apparent untoward behavior can be found on trove, which you are sure to have spotted.

  37. Clive: Next case for Coroner T.E. Cleland proved to be our poor young Clive Mangnoson; Cause of death found to be exposure, as attested to through the coroborated expert opinions of Doc Dwyer OBE and Prof. Jack Cleland CBE, neither of whom was decorated at the time. Had there been people in higher places as you suggest, they’re not likely to be so high these days.

  38. Matches (Federal): Some really great relief for both you and your well read brother in qualms Flash Gordon. The Yanks never came anywhere near Sth. Aust. with their weapons of anhialation, prefering to test their ‘big boy toys’ at Bikini Atol, home to the somewhat less parshial Marshall islanders. The relocated WMB natives were very well contented with the $125 mil. compo deal, along with endless supplies of their staple (RAF) ‘Spam’ and ‘Tabasco’. A very good outcome for the partnership and enduring what’s more…PS: Rest easy Flash; I have it on some authority that the American invasion of Great Britain which would have enriched Scotland & Ireland immeasurably, was put on hold per Congressional Order No.1776 some time ago.

  39. Gordon: RSL = Regimental Supernumerary List (Officers), Courtesy AWM on line.

  40. As a matter of interest N242437 H.H.T late 24th VDC 2nd AIF & 3rd Bde 1AIF. Harry was in the 1st landing wave on Anzac beach ex SS Derfflinger on 25th April, 1915 and subsequently wounded (1st of 3) on 8th May aged 19 years. Later to serve in France until 11/11/18 ceasefire and RTA’d with original Anzacs. He rejoinded the reserves for WW2 as a Major following Jap entry and served until the surrender in ’45. Harry was born in Mudgee 27/4/96, with dad James working as a Rlwy porter. We know that he married Bertha and had relatives throughout Country NSW including? Southgate via Grafton, however he gave addresses in Sydney suburbs of Croyden, Arncliffe and Cronulla, dieing on 8/12/53 and cremated with Methodist rites at Woronora. NB: Having the same middlename Harrison, it is likely that Harry T. Is a great grand father or at least a blood ancestor of the charged man from the recent ‘Ides of March’ (my words) massacre. PS. Submitted bolster support for an otherwise untarnished family lineage; nothing more. NP: Post or delete aytf. js.

  41. Gordon: On 7th March 1943, BIll Moulds, was most likely been enjoying 40 days leave with his family at Manly (Brisbane), having disembarked in Sydney on 27th February 1943, following 26 and a half months continuous war service in the Middle East…The only other time spent anywhere near Sydney according to his records, was in April ’44 when he spent an unspecified period on a course at SME out in the bush near Liverpool. If he had bumped into Alf Boxall, it could only have occurred there, but certainly not later in the Pacific theatre, as Bill Moulds was a civilian when Alf left Australia on 12th September 1945.

  42. Peteb on March 21, 2019 at 8:21 am said:

    Dusty, Mould’s ‘unspecified’ time at SME … why do you think that was the case?

  43. peteb: ‘special course’ probably for tactical and climatic re-conditioning from desert to island/tropical warfare, including seaborne landings. Nought to do with anything other than adaptation of his trade army engineering skills. Is my fair guess.

  44. Gordon: I think you’ll find Bill Mould’s Manly beachfront leave address was inserted (pencil?) in case of re-call whilst on extended furlough to accord with ROs. This probably extended through into April 1943 from memory and I recall his demob. date as being 6th September, 1945 or three days before Alf left from Cairns, to attend his post war duties in the islands.

  45. Gordon: You’ll note that Bill’s leave address was apparently c/o his brother? R.T. Carmody. By the date of his eventual RTA on 2nd September 1945, he was once again domiciled at Eagle Junction, QLD, his former enlistment PoA back in 1939. Bill’s date of discharge 6/3/45, was actually six (not 3) days prior to Alf’s overseas posting and one might presume that this took place at Brisbane, where 2/3 Field Company had been raised at the outbreak of hostilities. I guess it’s at least possible therefore, that Bill met with Alf for the clandestine book signing, as the latter was passing through NCPD on route to Cairns for his own departure to Rabaul?….

  46. It might be noted that Senator Jim Cavanagh’s alleged bi-lingual (EEU?) informant erronously refers to BBC in his accompaning ROK code preamble of 60s/e70s. Now we have a well known poster connected with a dedicated SM site also making a strange reference to BBC, as opposed presumanly to ABC. In her opinion, spy’s are at work, namely Alf Boxall at behest of the BBC and some unamed intelligence mob, out to undermine Det. Sgt.Leane and his boys. I seem to recall that Bob Wake’s (ASIO boss) son Val worked for the BBC in the 60s/e70s and Big Bob was known to have visited with him in Canada some time before passing about ’74. I’m not necessarily in disagreement with the proposal, and I do find the BBC cum ROK referal intriguing indeed indeed I do.

  47. BS: Lovely little set piece interaction with a conveniently Anonymous handwriting expert. We may look forward to similar (out of character) chummy interactions, until the Bill Moulds relevancy issue can be resolved without Clive having to lose face. A well contrived little stunt Indeed Indeed. PS: Might we dare ask our ADFA and NAA pals ‘Barry’ to pull old Bill’s award citation recommendation file, to see if the original field notation compares with that of his ORS.

  48. Thanks be to that indefatigable sleuthful threesome Clive, Byron and Misca, all of whom gave peteb the (unwanted) true post 1948 details, we can finally declare our gay mate Otis Pearce (sic) dead and buried, hopefully right side up….

  49. peteb on April 1, 2019 at 8:47 am said:

    https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/taman-shud-case.983169/page-5

    You ought to get around more, Dusty, there appears to be a lot of it gathering on your shoulders.

  50. You only got the straight facts on your Otis Pearce (sic) Stripes!..The boss didn’t feel that the full yarn, “the rough end of the stick”, so to speak, was fit for publication, which is only fair, though they really did both die in 1985.

  51. milongal on April 1, 2019 at 8:11 pm said:

    @JS I can see where the anon is coming from (although I’ve been trying to ignore it rather than jump in, but I can’t help myself)….
    There’s two samples of handwriting both alleged to be Mouldy (neither which has been verified as definitely being Major Moulds). Unless you can definitively identify one of them as being Moulds’ then match or no match means nothing.

    I can sort of see some similarity in them, but I can also see some differences – and (short of an actual handwriting expert saying otherwise) I think on the balance of probability it’s the sort of similarity and difference you’d expect in two random samples of handwriting from the same era. Sure, I take the point that pens and paper and ambient temperature affect all sorts of style because ink flows quicker and slower (and equally someone’s current temperament might be a factor), but I’m a long way from convinced that those two samples are from the same person, let alone that either of them is Major WJ Moulds.
    And it will take an expert to convince me otherwise.

    2c

  52. 8109: According to reliable sources the Royal Australian Engineer (Corps) of WW2, mustered 33 thousand ‘sappers’ by war’s end, serving in diverse rolls, over all three theatres of operations. Engineer units were comprised of field companies, serving predominantly in support of the larger Infantry Divisions and were most often refered to as ‘troops’. Australian army engineers did not raise regiments, as has of late been erronously claimed elswhere. So to put all this in context from NAA records, is that our Major William Jestyn Moulds of 2/3 Field company Qld. and Lieutenant Alfred Boxall of 13 Water Transport NSW. Whilst being members of the same corps, they were never likely to have served together in the field as is being portrayed elsewhere. For such contrary advice to be constantly tauted is deliberately misleading it seems, perhaps in order to cement a conspiritorial federation between two fine men that never existed, being mere fantasy or BS, as the proposing brand name implies….By the by, your AfIO? designate number bares similarity to another Jestyn born the same year as our Alf, which we might call a ‘fun fact’.

  53. 8109: NB…in continuance…To the best of my knowledge it could only have been Jess’s daughter Kate or else Derek Abbott who first divulged Jessica Thomson’s alleged pseudnom ‘Jestyn’ apropos the verse 70 signature in the Alf Boxall ROK. Claims that it was Gerry Feltus who gave her the name Jestyn might come as both a surprise and as a deliberate slight to the integrity of the man, who always sought to prevent it’s divulgance. Theresa, ‘the nurse’, Tess &c..were about as far as Det. Feltus went to identifying her in his book, although he did once quote other players having used Jestine and jestin. So you can see that you appear to have been misled yet again with an inexpertly contrived furphy based on a most audatious though rather unconvincing scam; that is if you are per chance a real entity and not just a number.

  54. milongal: Yes I’d agree entirely, though the new comments on BS go even further by insinuating that Major Moulds was in the habit of signatorising his name in full, which is utter hogwash, there being not one example of such in either of his two NAA records. NB: You’ll see that his Attestation form is signed clearly W J Moulds, though his full name is written above and is possibly in his hand, but the obverse Oath section is blank, so we’re left in the dark somewhat. The only other obvious designated signature W J Moulds, appears to be where he signed for an RAS badge after the war. Similar printed and cursive script including the name William Jestyn Moulds does appear elswhere as might be expected and is so acknowledged.

  55. “……..and then I went back to the (crazy Somerton) seasteps and moved down them as cautiously as a cat on a wet floor..(toppling arse over tit through the hand railing to the storm wall below and breaking my fat flaming neck thereby”)…Now that’s certainly an improvement to your standard Chandler/Marlow ending Stripes; Perhaps someday you’ll get over your letter Q and matches too!..

  56. milongal on April 8, 2019 at 9:36 pm said:

    There’s a discussion (PB seems involved) on (of all places) BigFooty dot com. It dates back to 2012, but looks like people have been commenting more recently than that (I think the most recent comment is Saturday). Probably not much new there, but might be worth keeping an eye on…..

    http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/taman-shud-case.983169

    Not real certain what it has to do with footy, but hey….

  57. Yes Clive, that was AB’s first cousin. Another bike rider and mechanic, whose wife, also a Boxall, got into tungstan mining at currie, during WW2, while he was doing home service in NT. Two years junior to our Alf, he later settled down Yerrinbool way after the war and died there. We did discuss Alfred John Boxall over here at some length quite a while ago, which you apparently missed.

  58. Actually Clive, our Evelyn, the axis tungsten miner from King Island, seemed to have had a dad named Brown Martin Boxall (chess master) and her mum had a wee dram of the old McTaggart blood coursing through her highland veins. Eve died youngish in the town where she was born, so it’s likely as not that Alfred J. Boxall didn’t agree with her having the same maiden name, nor choice of trading partners…No Stripes, brothers hardly ever have the same name for some reason.

  59. milongal: I can’t make head nor tail out of the BigFooty (wrong game anyhow), site but I don’t wonder that PB has found his way over there; The TBT bog seems to have been taken over by drones calibrated for time worn repetitious dialogue; yet retaining the same old chummy Q & A platitudinous style which it has favoured since its inception.

  60. peteb on April 10, 2019 at 6:24 am said:

    Dusty … you’re the clever fellow, can figure out what this code might mean.

    796 4916 5079 3286 0

  61. Stripes: No code my man; it resonated immediately as being the wire signal reset number for uncle Jed’s duplex pacemaker which sadly malfunctioned a while back. Always a jolly and seemingly healthy chap, of whom I was honoured to be made sole beneficiary of his substantial estate when he passed. I saw the end coming although it was perhaps a shock to his cycling mates. Fortunately I was able to connect with my favorite relative, from overseas via my wifi link just prior to his passing. I missed the moving veterans funeral service; unable to travel due to the sudden onset of a particularly nasty gout attack, however I recovered in good time to tackle guilt ridden will & probate issues that accomany any death in the family.

  62. Almost there, old son, in fact it is a representation of a glyphic codex transformation index codifier that can interpret covert communications from parties wishing to remain anonymous …
    My information is that it will be soon released by Amazon as a handheld device that once waved over any encrypted medium will immediately decipher it it a language of choice.
    Sensational though this may seem, old Bezo is having some teething problems with the English language as spoke by those with the disadvantage of being born with a plum in the eating aperture.

  63. Peter on April 11, 2019 at 7:53 am said:

    I found something interesting. I do not know if it belongs here, but I’ll just place it.
    The attempt how missionaries wanted to convey the biblical story to the South American peoples. about 1600

    http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/thumbs/fmb/cb-0905/Sequence-1472

  64. It is noted that that our outstandingly couragous Major Moulds, seems to have missed a few ‘i’ dottings as well, whilst adding the odd floater for effect. I’d like to think Clive was also onto these obvious message indicators like a Flash too…In light of the new earth shattering ‘T’ disclosure, It seems that the galloping Major’s promised OBE citation has been put on hold for a bit, which is to be expected of course.

  65. Actually Clive, Errol Canney had not long returned from his Detective’s course with Sapol’s counterparts at Sydney CIB, with whom he continued as liason officer for some years thereafter. It has been infered that he knew Jessie and Prosper, which suggests that he had previous business with the couple. Errol worked as a debt collector when he wasn’t on official duties and I could imagine that the couple may have been involved in similar enterprise, hence the connection.

  66. milongal on April 17, 2019 at 9:02 pm said:

    @JS: Unfortunately I can’t check out Wolf. One of the files isn’t open, and the NAA site required me to flag I was coming so they could prepare the files (their reading rooms are currently temporarily in Old Parliament House (or MOAD as they like to call it these days (Museum of Australian Democray)). Anywho, so I cottoned on to the fact that I need to ask them to bring the files down, but couldn’t find any obvious way to do it on their site….naturally I sent them an email. They’ve now opened a case to answer my question on how I ask them to follow the process they’ve implemente, and – given most of Canberra has shut down for Easter already (ok that’s not quite true, but the buses are notceably emptier, the (barely existant) traffic has become non existant, and I’d imagine there’s daily traffic jams on the Barton, Federal and Kings highways, as the public servants flee to do equally as little work in other surroundings…

    Short Version: I need the NAA to take files from storage to a reading room, and I’m not confident I’ve left them enough time to do so given they don’t seem to know their own process.

  67. milongal: Thanks for the effort which is much appreciated. My Wolf’s been on my list for a while and more; waiting a while longer won’t hurt…

  68. How many times must we be subjected outlandish claims of perjured testimony by poor, well meaning John Moss, concerning existence or non existence of a box of matches at the time of his attendance at Somerton on 1/12/48. Actually the question has no particular relevance, simply because the good constable didn’t mention matches period, Brymay, red-heads, quarter full or three quarters empty no matter. Irrespective of what Det. Sgt. Leane himself may or may not have sworn to re presence of matches etc., in his own affidavit, there was never any suggestion that Moss had a case to answer for lieing, either intentionally or by omission… I’ve just browsed thriugh one early version of the SM case attributed to Wikipedia and chuckled when I read about there having been “… no matches found”.

  69. Had john Moss pocketed the quarter box of ‘red heads’ he could hardly be blamed, in light of recent disclosures, that the Brymay plant at Richmond had been in lock down since mid September ’48, only resuming production on 16th November, with an anticipated three months delay in supply to regìonal centres. It would have been appropriate and decent for Det Sgt. Leane to deftly throw a spare box in with the other inquest exhibits six months down the track with production then back to normal, to cover any claims of evidence tampering or retention thereof by junior officers. Well done Lionel, dad would approve…

  70. Anyone who has digested the very latest TBT thread ‘The Logics of Defeat’ (from memory), will immediately note the connection. The interesting little asterisk addendum, one to which we have been reminded on a fairly regular basis, refers of course to the t’wixt knuckle abrasions, with conclusion by the author, that SM must have got a good hit in before being overcome…. Anyone reasonably familiar with the finer points of aggressive bare knuckle pugilism (ala Ms. du Queensbury), would be aware that it’s only the knuckle points that normally sustain damage in a stoush; not the soft webbing in the hollows which is protected by the bony bulges. In Dr. John Dwyer’s ‘Sworn testimony’, he only refered to two slight abrasions in the knuckle hollows and added that the scrape injuries might have occurred just before death, being of no significance, in his opinion.

  71. Not if you smack him in the teeth, old son, and you can take it from one who has had the experience. Only to cop a full beer bottle on the back of the head immediately after, followed by a sincere kicking … at least the nurses were kind, but unsticking the scabby noggin from the pillow next morning was an exercise in fortitude.

  72. Couldn’t have been either of the Mangnoson boys as they were somewhat difficient in the dental department; so looks like they’re in the clear…Ever heard of Heinrich Becker, a S.A. Liberal MLA, early seventies to late nineties. His dad Johannes was leader of the Nazi party in SA and Tassie from ’34 to 36 and was a medico who came to Adelaide in ’27, aged 29. Cut to the quick, he spent 5 years in Tatura until ’46 and was deported to Germany on precisely 24/11/47 aboard the migrant ship Heintzelman ex Melbourne. Only thing being he couldn’t have gone, according to the records of that trip, the tub having arrived in Perth on 28/11 and set sail from there back to Bremen directly…Chap’s fine enough to look at with all the usual Arian features, thinning hair plus a couple of nice extras including a few scars on one hand and one on the same arm. He’d had some serious altercations with fellow POWs and he’d made one unsuccessful escape attempt aboard a Panamanian vessel out of Sydney, before getting his marching orders. He told the Sydney Sun that he would be returning to Oz as soon as possible using an assumed identity, although we are unreliably informed that he died in Bremen in ’61 but who knows…Perhaps Clive might like to have a yarn with ex MP Heini if he’s still aripound; never know what might come out if it. PS: Comparison facial geometry with SM is OK, based on one crook Sun newspaper image, but scars are reported to be on the right arm/hand as opposed to Dr. Dwyer nominating the left.

  73. Not so impressed now with Jo Becker’s features, worse even than Otis Pierce, but there could be hope for one of his Tatura storm trooper mates, Louis Burkhardt, if we could just find the nazi bastard. A rep for Krupp Steel pre war and may have been picked up in New Caledonia ’39. PS: Not listed at NAA which is very strange.

  74. Here’s an idea that Ellen put me onto, full credit to her. The renowed Dutch psychic Gerard Croiset worked with Len Brown and Dr. Hendrickson on another case at Somerton back in the sixties (true). The great man must surely have had some briefing on the SM mystery whilst there, upon which he may have had some ideas. Of course the mortal man is long gone, but I’m thinking that his living aura may still be tapped through interdiction of a similarly gifted medium, over a ouija board. Is it likely that someone with such talent is known to us and perhaps willing to give it a try for a share of any eventual rights that might transpire. Just a thought mind!

  75. Just picked up on a little trivia, whilst patiently awaiting news of an imminent SM breakthrough. It seems that around 5.30pm on Tuesday, 30th November 1948, Just at about the time when our victim was settling into position below the purpose built Alvington CCH Stairway, a distinctly alien saucer shaped craft appeared out over the Alvington Plains doing some drills. Local farmer, John Harkness made some observations about it in the local press a week later, after vapour trails were spotted by other well regarded locals. Perhaps not really relevant to our case, unless we consider that the craft might have been involved in some form of semi clandestine operation that connects with our friend on the beach, similar to the celebrated Roswell New Mexico UFO deal a year before. Just one other minute detail, almost overlooked, is that neither John, a well known local identity nor any of his many relatives, are known to have been laid to rest anywhere within an hundred miles radius of that Balaklava/Hamley Bridge district. That of course includes daughter Jessie , better known to us as ‘the other Sister J. Harkness’, Spanish Civil War volunteer circa. ’36.

  76. Alma Plains, not Alvington you fool. Many will recall Keith Mangnoson having been taken out to Alma near Hamley Bridge, by his mum in early ’41 to rest up following his strange lost experience in the donga out Loxton way. I wonder if our Keith also experienced weird contact with UFOs and that’s what sent him bonkers.

  77. Gordon: Rupert Long was never Director of Australian National Intelligence. He was a proud Naval Officer and Director of a combined joint services Intel. group from ’41. This was a year before his coastwatchers commenced reporting the long anticipated Jap incursions into the northern Island groups in early ’42. Another Association man by the name of Justice Bill Simpson, Doc Evatts lawyer mate from Sydney, had the honour of being the D.N I. for Curtin’s Labour Government and in so being, reported directly to his old pal the Attorney General. I seem recall saying all this once before so it looks like some body else was also confused about real differences between governmental and purely military roles.

  78. Peteb: Think I’m gonna play stooge to the master of the last line put down, you got another think coming my man. I’m merely endeavouring to get my most humble opinions on line for favour of a fair hearing, purpose being to assist in an inquiry. So long as I keep missing your strict deadlines for copy, there doesn’t seem to be any real insentive to post. That aside, not a great deal of sensible argument seems to be coming out of your, allbeit fairly well laid out threadlines of late.

  79. milongal on May 13, 2019 at 10:35 pm said:

    @JS: I have a John Harkness d27/12/1949 age 77, laid to rest at Owen (half way between Balaklava and Hamley Bridge)….
    I assume this is the same John Harkness who despite ‘varied health of late’ celebrated his Golden Anniversary Feb 1949 (his wife’s maiden name was Read, incidentally).
    They had 7 children, although their names are not mentioned in that article.
    Someone has collated a whole heap of trove articles with the tag “Owen Families HARKNESS” for those interested….

  80. milongal: Crikies mate, that’s all a bit of de ja. John Harkness was Jessie Read H’s dad and her mum was Sue Read. That family lived out Hamley Bridge way and were connected with merino sheep and wheat going back to the days of big pastoral leases nor west of Adelaide eg. the Duffields & Boyntons. Russian Kate made a big splash with the SS Moravia and Jessie Harkness, the nurse’s voyage to the Spanish civil war in ’36. T’was all released with great fanfare on TSBS not so long back, then just as quickly withdrawn when the lark was detected and the co-conspiritors took off to parts unknown.

  81. peteb on May 14, 2019 at 2:30 am said:

    The Moulds enquiry is ongoing. Images are being sought. And I’ve bought a lottery ticket, hoping for a double.

  82. peteb: Might not have to go to blighty after all Stripes, we got Moulds by the bucket load at Uraidla-Somertown-Careys Creek up in the hills on the old Mount Pleasant branch line to Adelaide. Ernest Roy (Peter) Moulds, son of E. A. (dec) got hitched there in ’38, not to Jessie, but there was some mention of Trotters in the same Ad/ads mix. All this is fresh, so I’ll await expressions of interest before I take it further if that’s fine with your talent.

  83. Peteb: My Moulds were apple orchardists (pink ladies?) and tykes, unlike Alf’s mate BJ who was Prod/Pres from memory. Ernest, 1915/98, whose dad was Ernie also, never bothered to go to war, unlike the other six lads in the family who were perhaps a little more earnest and played their part dutifully. If we’re not on the right track here, you’ll not hesitate to let me know, in which case I’ll stand aside and probe other likely leads.

  84. milongal on May 14, 2019 at 9:01 pm said:

    sorry JS, should’ve clarified…. that was re your post about John Harkness and the UFO (26/4/19):
    “… is that neither John, a well known local identity nor any of his many relatives, are known to have been laid to rest anywhere within an hundred miles radius of that Balaklava/Hamley Bridge district”

    He appears to be buried in Owen, pretty well smack bang in the middle of where he was well-known, hadn’t particularly searched for his family yet.

    While on topic, I still find this Jessie a bit interesting – if nothing else the idea of 2 Jess Harknesses in nursing (albeit from memory some 10-20 years apart agewise). I was sort of trying to work out whether Robert Ellis Harkness a mason from Victoria might have been related, but couldn’t find obvious links…

    “Read” jumped out at me (as in “Tommy Reade”), although I notice bny the 50s most references have become Reid….

  85. milongal: There’s the caution, just don’t trust too much in Billion dollar graves or their competitors F-A-G in the search business. From your info, I checked with totally reliable Lorraine’s list for Owen and bingo, like a ‘prayer for Owen Meaney’ John Harkness, his kids John Dunlop H’s and Jessica Read H’s our nurse, and dear old Sue Betsy Harkness nee Read, wife and mother of the above, plus a few ring-ins which would be comforting, particularly during the winter months

  86. TBT: Bob’s yer uncle lads, or more’s to the point, Jessica’s uncle, Rob Harkness of 16th Lancashire Fusiliers, who died in France 1918 Born in Essex around 1890 would be my fair guess, though you’d be better off asking Jessie’s distraught cousins Ida and Roberta who posted a nice little epitaph…About the frequent sisterly correspondence; the first letter from ’57 which complains about Prosper’s misbehaviour. It then must have been to distant Ellen, Jess being in country and within shouting distance of Joan and her neighboors the Mangnosons. With regard to the epistle from Cornwall circa. 1962, I’m thinking that our absent minded professor mentioned that Joan was the addressee for that one… we can’t help a lot in your desperate quest for news on Sqn. Ldr. E. Moulds, the Bomber Command, Avro ace, though I can imagine joy sticks are to the fore at 12 o’clock high, scanning the clear blue skies over Hanover for Ernie in his B1 Lancaster, ‘ Jestyn Time’

  87. peteb: Still working on Ernie, last seen walking away from a crash landing in Holland, MG ’44. However your new quest for info on travel from U.K. 1943/45 has produced one sure result for sea arrival to Australia from GB via TR. On 3/10/43, regarding a certain naval intelligence officer, that I once had the privilage of introducing, though without expressions of interest. If you feel free to provide more detail, as to the aims of your fishing expedition, I’ll dig out my UK transfer lists and pass on what detail I’m able to, so long as I’m satisfied it has relevance to the case.

  88. milongal on May 16, 2019 at 8:56 am said:

    @JS: FWIW was genealogysa no billion graves….

  89. milongal: Yes of course, but with the SAGS limit on detail, I followed up on BG/FAG and got zip…I’m guessing that’s what went down, though don’t have particular recall as to why I needed the info.

  90. Always at you service I remain, peteb on May 16, 2019 at 9:52 am said:

    I like my fiction better, Dusty, it makes for a more interesting read .. you, old lad, chuck it up like a shower of confetti .. not that I mind, probably because It takes one piss-taker to know another.
    Rip and tear Johnno .. you’ve got them all beat here.

  91. Roger that Stripes, all words after Rip and tear johnno..Out!..

  92. Stripes: Your desperate search for Harkness or Moulds arriving in Australia from UK between ’42 to ’43 got no takers on TBT; yet I secured one for you, reported dutifully, then stood by to provide full details as required…Should abort desure for follow-up on the suspect or await follow up instruction.

  93. peteb on May 23, 2019 at 1:00 am said:

    Everlastingly grateful old son, in your debt …. now looking for a Harkness exiting the Auld Darte for Aus prior to ’45 and after ’43

  94. A bloke can’t take a trick with the constantly changing travel plans. Yesterday I had Ted Harkness who just so happens to have been the top coms. rating on the Shropshire out of Blighty bound for Brisbane. Then, with some considerable good fortune, I managed to jag another tub departing Gourock in the last days of December and arriving Sydney late February ’43 with our old mate Bill Moulds on board. Seems now that neither of my soon to be decorated heros are quite up to speed for the purpose of new evidentiary needs. It would make a lesser man throw in the towel, t’would indeed, indeed.

  95. Well spotted there Clive; no tails on the verse 70 end ‘d’ letters and a couple of other marked similarities such as the two kinds of ‘s’ appearing for a capital and non capital along with the standard cursive lower case. This is all consistent with Alf Boxall’s typical letter writing style, which we have indeed discussed at regular intervals. We have indeed, indeed!…And you know what mate? I’m not at all sure that Alf ever denied inserting the lines himself, possibly before then allowing Bill or Ernie Moulds, perhaps even the wee (no more than 20yo) froggy nurse to do the Jestyn sign off.

  96. And for all that, whatever Alf might have said or didn’t about the innocence of his affair with the young nurse in late August ’45, might now be put into a more dubious, not so above board context. It appears that Alf, our likeable bumbling ‘snorter’, whose word we came to see as being almost credible, from his TV debut with quizmaster Littlemore in ’77, seems now to have suffered a blow. This being in light of certain adverse disclosures as to the old digger’s integrity; there being solid evidence that points to his involvement in fraud and deception of the most henous, kind imaginable ie. Stolen valour!…

  97. peteb on May 25, 2019 at 10:27 am said:

    Littlemore not quite the ace investigative interviewer … not a mention of the name Keane plus a fake news over-dub suggesting the little lady herself penned the boozer’s verse to the big man.

  98. Yes, it would seem to be a case of a ‘Littleless’ if anything, as his client Eddie Obead might attest from the comfy cell which he now calls home. Actually Alf, the big man, resplendent in dress uniform and Sam Brown, along with two extra self awarded medal ribbons in the posed file pic, just so happened to be quite well versed in classic prose. John Milton, Henry Lawson and Sam Clemens can be seen in the backdrop for his TV interview. So one could bet most assuredly that he would have no problem in penning verse 70 on the cover page of his ROK verbatum, without having to find it in the book…Sy &c. Jestyn be faked.

  99. peteb on May 26, 2019 at 1:37 am said:

    … and where did the Bryant and May matches come from? But wait, if the dead gent had a half-smoked durry on his person, how suspicious would it have looked if he didn’t have the means to light it?
    PC Moss’s list of items found on the body be damned.

  100. Byron Deveson on May 26, 2019 at 2:28 am said:

    John,
    Service ribbons are hardly “stolen valour”. There is irrefutable evidence (written into Hansard etc) that the Dept. of Defence “disappeared” thousands of service files dealing with the secret mustard gas trials carried out in Australia and the SW Pacific area during WW2. They “used” about 1,000 volunteers and managed to kill some and badly injure many more. The Dept Defence denied any and all Repatriation claims for ongoing health problems and told Repat doctors that their patients were lying nut cases. That there had never been any mustard gas trials of any sort. Bottom line? Absence of Service associated records isn’t evidence of absence. Alf could very well have been telling the truth about his service and probably was in my estimation.
    My father was involved in the mustard gas trials in some way and was the person who dumped the archival evidence that hadn’t been “weeded” into Parliament in the mid 1970s. The relevant Minister had the sense to immediately tell Parliament that he had been misinformed and that Australia had indeed conducted extensive testing of mustard gas on volunteers.
    Why was this covered up in the first place? Well, one of the RAAF pilots who carried out one of the combined USA/Australia mustard gas bombing was told by his USA debriefers that, contrary to what the RAAF pilots had been told (that the targets only contained test animals) in fact the targets contained “military prisoners” and all had been killed. The RAAF pilot was very distressed (you can read his statements in Trove) and the ambiguous wording leaves open the possibility that the RAAF was suckered into an embarrassing “incident”. There are political reasons why this might have occurred.
    It would explain why the indecent cover-up occurred in the first place. What if the “military prisoners” were Japanese? It is well established that the USA was playing dirty pool with its allies almost from the start of WW2.

  101. Byron: Alf had no entitlement to either the 39/45 nor the Pacific Star so far as the Army was cincerhed. He knew for sure about the strict protocols regarding specific areas of service, for some years after sitting for his incriminating fall bar photo. Much later writing off to the medals office with a plea to reconsider, explaining that he had actually seen active service during the Timor Sea conflict in 42/43 whilst with 1/NAOU. You may have a point about the veracity in part of his claim, for upon re checking records of other members of his patrol team, namely Dave and brother Xavier Herbert, it appears they were given part benefit of the doubt and issued with a shiny gold 39/45 star inscribed with their name….As for the other stuff well, my very own well tanned pop did six years up front with a Tommy gun in three theatres and you won’t find any mention of him on any AWM nominal rolls. All I can add in support of your obvious distrust of the military and it’s post war repatriation arm is, that I concur completely and for good reasons too. There can be no winners in warfare or for that matter, the nasty side shows accompanying, and as General William Tecumseh Sherman of the Union Army loved to hear himself say, “War is Hell”, eg. Just prior to ordering his boot licking sidekick Phil Sheridan to torch the C.S.A. state of Georgia, in the so called ‘scorched earth’ war against women and childer’ black, white and brindle “no matter my man, do it”.

  102. Moss paid for his faux pas with a transfer from his own dream station in Brighton, to the Henley Beach posting for such officers declining to fib a little in court for the better good of the Force. Of course there were no Maggie Thatchers, Bryant & May Redheads, Federal Green lights or S A Match Colonel Lights for that matter. We may suppose our man could have struck a saved old ‘lucifer vulcanic’ on his shiny boot heel and let it burn down after lighting up, which would have done the trick to get rid of the evidence.

  103. Flash: I think you’ll find that others, “less reputable” were talking about Alf having been the author of the verse 70 inscription long before your own attribution of same to the highly speculative, pulled out of a hat Major W. Jestyn Moulds OBE, who has, much to your horror, been replaced by part namesake Ernie the pom foran equally invalid reason.

  104. Response to TM/BS of even date. Gordon I was wondering if your “little extra research” into the life and times of our like decorated clandestine WW2 officers Maj. W. J. Moulds and Commander R. B. M. Long, revealed anything more about their possible rogue RSL affiliations. Seems that Rupert the navy man, may have been active until his passing in 1960, with the Manly RSL club in NSW and Bob, a former Army officer on the Regimental Supernumerary List (RSL), possibly with the Returned Services League (RSL) in far off Manly Qld…All goes to reveal what interesting things one can procure with a “little extra research”, as you say old chap…All the more extraordinary in a way; having two completely different meanings for the very same key military RSL abreviations, even more coincidental in that two beachside suburbs of two Australian state capitals over a thousand kilometers apart, should bare precisely the same name of Manly. Which the one in Qld, as it turns out was where ‘Jestyn’ Moulds stayed for a few short weeks whilst on furlough in early 1943 and t’other in NSW, to where ‘Michele’ Long retired some time in the fifties, long after his alleged involvement with lond dead Tom Blamey’s VDC & ‘the Association’ of red-rag baiters & urgers…It just might pay, when puting those extra hard yards in next time around , to get all the facts right before you trumpet, but don’t lose heart my man, just keep that leaking old kettle on yon hob and one fine day you might get the rusty basket to whistle dixie sweet and true, like Lee’s old horse Traveller.

  105. Check for my deliberate mistake Flash and we’ll share spoils for the Bozo prize.

  106. Peteb on May 27, 2019 at 7:50 am said:

    This from the bloke who didn’t know the difference between striped and plain.

  107. And from a bloke who couldn’t tell the difference between a normal stairway and one that had purpose built slats to prevent it’s use by adventurous disabled kids from across the road at Alvington.

  108. Peteb on May 27, 2019 at 11:35 am said:

    … ain’t nothin’ you don’t know is there Wally? You be like some of the other know-alls roundabout here.

  109. Now there’s a fine old name that we don’t hear often these days. Wally grew up in Partridge Street, moved to Collier Place as a kid thence to Pier Street, where he grew to manhood. Champion swimmer, consumate Adelaide city business man and Glenelg alderman, later becoming Lord Mayor no less. Fought the hun to a standstill in the Middle East, became Harbour Master at Madang, commanded the Itai POW’s in the SA camps and dared to carry his pocket copy of Hebrew psalms all through the war. I had no idea that you were familiar with the man Two dogs; are you Jewish by any chance? But you’re right to suggest that old Wally Bridgland was a most knowledgeable chappy and knew more than your average gentile in those heady days of Glenelg around ’48.

  110. milongal on May 27, 2019 at 10:06 pm said:

    I’m guessing I’m less reputable too, but certainly I’m not convinced in the differences being raised in the handwriting between the letters and the verse – and would be interested to hear an opinion from an actual specialist.
    It would be interesting to know the date the 2nd letter was written vs when v70 was written – because some of the ‘differences’ could be attributed to age-difference of the author (certainly my handwriting today looks different than it would have when I’d just left school. certainly the pen used in the letter is different so some of the differences happen there. I’d also note that the verse is written from memory whereas the other two examples are of someone thinking as they write – so the verse is potentially more hurried, which might explain why the ‘t’s keep gettting missed (and the more extreme lean on most of the letters).
    The first letter is nice enough to give us examples of some of the actual words from v70 for comp[arison (but, before, and) and of course the distinctive ‘I’…which to my eye show some similarity.

    The first letter talks about 2 demanding children needing to be clothed and fed so that probably gives some indication of when it was written. The second is obviously on a longish trip – which I originally thought might be honeymoon, but it doesn’t entirely sound like a holiday (3 months travelling followed by 6 months staying somewhere – and seemingly to ‘new’ places that still make it some sort of adventure). I sort of assume ‘we’ refers to her and Prosper (and possibly kids), but I guess there’s no reason why it couldn’t be her talking to a pen friend about her family or something….Maybe PB can give us a date for the letter?

    2c

  111. milongal on May 28, 2019 at 12:35 am said:

    Incidentally, how much do we know about Prosper? Abbot’s timeline has him born 1912, but I’m sort of interested (intrigued, even) in a P Thomson who arrived Adelaide 23/06/1924 on board the Moreton Bay with the Occupation “Motor Driver”

  112. Peteb on May 28, 2019 at 7:21 am said:

    Don’t have it Milongal … the image came from one of DA’s sites, maybe zoom on that pic of him with his hand over a letter.

  113. No need to look any further for a handwriting specialist and put aside the fake unrelated Moulds material which was posted on BS/TS and TBT as a joint ruse, concocted conspiratorily so as to divert attention away from other evidence yet to be anounced with fanfare nio doubt…. Some considerable time ago, I consulted with a well accredited handwriting comparison examiner, in and for both the High Court of Australia @ (FCD Maxwell P’matta) and in the District Court of NSW criminal jurisdiction @ (Redapple L’pool), two of many examples. From this I have concluded in general terms, that Alfred Boxall is more than likely to be the author of all the cursive handwriting within the inside cover of the duel language 1944 pressing of ROK/Shahir Omar, specifically in comparison with samples accredited to Jessica Thomson, but not necessarily including the figure 70 hand printing alongside….I have mentioned all of this in several previous short submissions which can be located and refered to if desired, or should it be contended that all this is new knowledge. For discretionary reasons I see no real need to reveal personal details of my consulted comparison expert per se, though I might refer any doubters back to the noted Court Registrars and or the Commonwealth and Australia Police Gazettes for the relevent periods 1974 through 1980, prosecution details of which I’m also reluctantly able to provide, upon receipt of a stamped, self address envelope.

  114. milongal: Could be Priestly Thomson for a very rough guess on y.o.b., but you could possibly narrow it down by trying to tie in Mr. P.Thomson’s travelling companions, Mr. E and Mrs. Thomson, all of the same Mile End address. I can’t see even a lad like Prosper wangling a driver’s licence at age 12.

  115. Nah. Probably not Priestly Morel Thomson WW1 (paywall) who was also from Gladstone out Port Pirie way and likely connected with Jessie Mcfarlane’s old man George Thomson from Gladstone which is a coincidence by similar ritious name, connecting in a way with Prosper’s Jessie Harkness.

  116. Righteous as in Brothers ie. Hooked on a feeling, Unchained Medley (sic). Yeah that’s riotous enough.

  117. milongal on May 28, 2019 at 8:52 pm said:

    @JS: No doubt a coincidence, but I can’t help but think there was the Jessica H who was a nurse who was a decade or so older than our Glenelg mob, and now a P Thomson who is about 10 years older (I should’ve mentioned the passenger record has him 21 in 1924 – so definitely not consistent with our Prosper b1912)….
    Thomson of course is a very common name (and P could equally be Peter, Paul (Pavel /tic), Patrick, etc), Harkness a little (but not a lot) less so.

    In particular, I was remembering reading somewhere that noone has found a record of North Shore/Glenelg Harkness as actually completing her nursign qualification (although clearly she practiced later) and was going out on a long, thin limb thinking about some identity theft in there somewhere – but of course I forgot we had a good ol’ dig into Prosper’s family in the past and verified dates and ages of him and his kin….
    consider it a post before thought.

  118. On a more coniliatory note it’s nice that we are able to join with Derek and Gordon to wish a fond farewell to our old SM nemesis of sorts, Len Brown. In the end, the uncommonly decent old detective and reasonably honest copper may have pulled one last trick Kenista smoke from the mystery railway cafeteria suitcase; As might well have been anticipated by the more knowing of his admiring devotees. The old bastard seems to have lied about his age to give himself advantage of seniority at the Gates. Onyer Super… ..Godspeed.

  119. Jon R, ha ha, back in early early 2014 made some interesting observations, based on a few of GF’s book notations concerning the nature of the Nurse’s relationship with Alf Boxall, as being somewhat at odds with what the detective had espoused. Feltus surmising that the couple had likely met by mid 1944 which is when Alf was posted back to Sydney from NT on compassionate grounds for the birth of his dughter Leslie. Going by what Alf told police which is at variance to what wife Susie said much later, he was presented with a copy of a dual language ROK by a shy young recently introduced nurse named Jestyn in September 1945 over a few snorts at Clifton Gardens pub and just prior to his active service posting “amongst the swaying palms”….According to G. Feltus, the particular fancy version of ROK was bought by the nurse from Craftsman books in Sydney, and we might note that this very edition, authored by A. W. Hamilton, then of W.A. was likely to have been used by Alf’s unit SME for a one off Malay language course run over several weeks in July ’44….In contrast, Jestyn as Jessie Thomson, claimed to SA police in July ’49 that she had given Lt. Boxall a somewhat different version of an English language W&T Courage & Friendship pocket version most likely, around Xmas 1945, by her
    own time reckoning. This would be significant if true, for Alf was then supposedly aboard ‘Crusader’ on U.S. war surplus recovery duties in northern waters off PNG. If one cares to peruse Alf’s own service records with care, as many others diarists obviously didn’t, there is a thirteen month unexplained hiatus gap between his being piped aboard Crusader as engineer officer at Rabaul in mid September of ’45 and his supposedly next return to Sydney in October of ’46. My contention is that Alf most likely got back to homebase around Christmas ’45, either on a short fly in fly out furlough or else perhaps aboard his vessel then offloading tanks, which might well support Jessie’s own claim for the book handover timing, along with its more sinister implications….But hold up, one might well counter; how do the two ROK editions work into this grand story of claimed deception. Thanks Ron R aka ha ha, we learn that back in 1949 when the fuzz came looking for a Lieutenant Boxall at Randwick bus depot, they were so disappointed at finding him alive that they completely forgot about his ROK. Undaunted, the news hounds later went to his home demanding satisfaction and in order to be rid of the intrusion, Alf reluctently showed them his W&T cleanskin copy of an ROK which he attested was the one in question as given to him by the little frog nurse. Pat Burgess of the Mirror reported years later that the book shown to his colleagues must in fact have been Jessie Thomson’s copy. So it seems that sly old Alf, later penned verse 70 into his A. W. Hamilton Sha’ir Omar edition, perhaps just prior to his TV debut with Stuart Littlemore or less in 1977, for reasons known but to God and one other. The imposter ROK had of course come into his possession in 1944, which also accords with wife Susies version as revealed by Alf’s daughter Leslie to Gerry Feltus when they met over tea and Arnott’s iced vo vo’s years after the tumult and shouting had died….So apart from the noted handwriting similarity which is quite telling of itself, one might also begin to see other like signs that the verse 70 attribution could only refer to Alf Boxall and in no part likely to have anything to do with Jessica Harkness the nurse or the falsely accused Major William Jestyn Moulds OBE…All of the above, to my modestly claimed, well researched opinion, seems to be more consistent with the few real facts known, than the ones attributed to so called reliable sourses and those merely invented as hopeful possibilities for a money spinning novel or two by fiction writers. What I have put down is merely intended for consideration and critical evaluation, as applicable, in order to report honestly on theoretical flaws.

  120. Peteb on May 29, 2019 at 6:36 am said:

    Old news about Alf’s missing time, Byron was onto that long ago.

  121. milongal: I know that Sister Jessie Harkness, the Spanish nightingale sounds inviting for possible name and title transfer by someone intending to use it for dishonest clandestine activities, but she really doesn’t fit the bill. She was very well known, almost famous in the near nor’west wheat belt districts around Hamley Bridge and Balaclava, besides she was twenty years older than her near namesake and I’d be inclined to think someone like the widow Thomson and her departed husband George, would have been perfect foils for a team like Prosper and Co.

  122. Good catch Byron and golly gosh, sorry about the unintended troll baiting…Time was, when the little toy dog was new; and the soldier was passing fair..And that was the time when Our Little Boy Blue…kissed them and put them there…..Just a bit of filler to offset a dumb piece of gotcha ha ha, from Kerry the king of sleaze… Appologies to any intelligent folk tuned in to Misc.

  123. How can we be so sure that Alf Boxall showed the press his nurse’s ’41 W&T to the exclusion of his ’44 dual language A.W. Hamilton job; after all they were both likely to be cleanskins in July of ’49. Two obvious reasons come to mind, though there may others that could also have relevance upon further consideration. Firstly the fact that the ‘filth’ had not demanded to see their informant’s gift copy, would have given Alf choice of which copy he showed the reporters, mindful that they’d be sure to want photos for their copy. So best show them the pretty one with the showy extra title Shahir Omar and a picture of an exotic woman on the frontise piece. Or else, to satisfy our TS/BS and Tbt spy theorists; perhaps the so called gift copy, passed to our deep cover PPK carrying intelligence agent ‘A’ by his shady lady ‘J’ three and one half years earlier precisely, contained need to know elements that he dare not risk exposing to snoopy news hounds. Another reason why a trainee nurse like the sweet almost innocent Jessica, was not likely to have given a fancy book, like the A.W. Hamilton edition to Alf, could be found in its list price of 7/6 or $20.00 Aud in today’s funny money terms, the cost of a lowly nurse’s weekly board. Besides Kerry, could you in all honesty see our sweet young thing, making a trip all the way into the durty dusty city ie.Martin Place , from her clean safe domicile on the other side of Sydney harbour, just to buy an overpriced book in a part foreign language, as parting gift for an old married man of her now requited aquaintance. PS: Apologies for repeating anything someone else may have posted previously, except Yours truly js.

  124. Clive: I love your sense of dedication to a grand champion of the lost cause. I think you may have remarked your good self as to being mindful of time altering writing styles, which from my experience are not so well defined. But in any case I’ll take your word for it, but dare to say that Alf’s ending ‘d’s’ from the displayed 1960 letter off his record are pretty much the same as in the ROK, even baring in mind fifteen to seventeen years variation to the verse 70 wording. Of course you and your team would declare these days, for one or t’other of the mouldy old Moulds to have done the deed along wuth accompanying Jestyn signature in 1945, whereas I’d go for it having been inserted by Alf Boxall sometime just prior to his chit chat with Stewart Littlemore who in all probability devised the scheme for attention seeking film footage (cut?). Each to his true belief old man and say a big “Hi” to Gordon for me..laddie. PS. Likewise we note Len Brown’s lamented loss.

    Now the little toy dog is covered with rust..But sturdy and staunch he stands.
    The little tin soldier is red with rust..And his musket Moulds in his hands.

  125. Byron: Regarding the missing thirteen months or so of Alf’s ORS from 9/45 through 10/46, I’m now able to fill the gap with a degree of certainty, based on the known movements of AV 2767 Crusader and its motley 13 WT crew. Alf was appointed as First Engineer between late 1945 and no later than February 1946, when it sailed for northern waters from Calmsie Qld, upon completing its sea trials and after also having undergone some modifications. As can be seen, this all fits with Alf having spent Xmas with his friends and loved ones, including the chance to have a few snorts with his friend the nurse?..So its probable that our man had earlier flown home or sailed back from PNG after just a couple of months, purpose being to prep the new heavy lift recovery vessel for work in the islands…Perhaps you will be familiar with these details already, going by Peteb’s kind “old news” reminder of your own earlier extensive service record enquiries, which strangely I’ve not been able to locate. If you happen to be able to advise on further details re his personal details such as claimed warlike missions in the Timor Sea campaign, the birth date of his second child Leslie? and his resting place which I have not as yet been able to locate in ACT or Sydney, that would be most helpful…NB ” indeed indeed ” for info as per Clive’s unanswered querie to TS/BS.

  126. There had been a delivery of the 44 surplus tanks from Torokina Bouganville to a Sydney storage/scrapping yard, most likely the sprawling Randwick tram and bus depot in July of ’46. Just one of many similar war surplus deliveries undertaken by Alf and his 12/13 WT crew aboard Crusader, monthly by all accounts, during its year long recovery mission in Pacific…Also included was the delivery of some thousands of exhumed bodies of allied servicement for re interrment in Madang war cemetery, so his post war duties were obviously not a holiday posting by any means…Knowing that Alf Boxall worked as an engineer for RBD before and after his war service, I was interested enough to check into that part of his life which I knew very little of beforehand. The vast Randwick depot, close to Woolloomooloo port, employed hundreds of mechanics just like Alf with various degrees of expertise depending on their respective trade skills. One thing they all did have in common was their membership of the communist led Amalgumated Engineering Union, whose introduction of rolling strikes during the late forties and early fifties had often brought Sydney city commuter services to a virtual standstill. Likely lads such as John Halfpenny and Laurie Carmichael, Stalinist strongmen were supreme in later years, which makes me wonder if our very bright Alfred may not have held some high office in the organisational structure himself, during his employment.

  127. Well Byron the least we can say on the old pinko’s behalf, is that he was most unlikely to have been a murdering Stalininist, with pacifist reading material such as ‘The Union Buries Its Dead’ close by in his impressive bookshelf. I’m talking about Alf Boxall of course not Len Brown, dyed in the wool pacifist Bolshie if ever there was one…So it must be true, then what ‘Henry’ Lawson wispered to Clive about him being a ship spotter along with Jestyn down at the old Woolloomooloo docks. Expanding along those lines, rusty Ruskie tubs from Vladivostok and the Japanese territories, were known to have been in and out of the Islands grabbing anything Nip or Yank made from metal that they could get their hooks into. Enter Alf the trader who might, for a barrel or two of Beluga caviar put them onto any lurks that his own scrounger bosses weren’t into. Then along with the delicate ship to ship exchange, some onboard mail bags go over the side by accident..Likewise Alf old Boss Dave Herbert had his own decrepit freighter in NG waters and was also into discarded communications equipment. Whereas brother ‘Capri’ Xavier, the former Faschist, turned red, was said to be cruising the military supply dumps in his blitz wagon through central Australia after guns & ammo for cash, with his black mate and fellow commie AWU delegate Joe McGuiniss…NB: NAA Crusader mail theft Torokino-Madang October 1945.

  128. Peteb on May 31, 2019 at 8:24 am said:

    Johnno, mate, thanks, but all we want to know is one thing – who was the joker on the beach?

  129. Byron: Deliberate mistake, mail theft was 17th June ’46. And for you Peteb me old China, the joker on the beach was the same joker as the one got caught trying to cut in on the secret military burial sites. Those that the brothers McInnis, the brothers Herbert and the cousins Boxall went dibs on near Larrimah in ’44, or else he might’ve been some joker with a similar sounding name to the first joker.

  130. Some good news on ‘The Ugly Duckling’, It seems that the army had given it their own designation of 1 ACV Crusader as opposed to its defence listing as AV 2767. which means Pierre Eugene Cau was part of the crew until arrival back from the islands in October’46 and the tub’s subsequent transfer to civil use. Bad news is that any interesting snippets regarding Peppy’s year aboard with Alf are hidden behind the NAA paywall.

  131. Peteb: I think we can scratch cousin Alf from our in the know list, but perhaps include two Freds, Morris and Gubbins, spooks from Pine Creek NT & Brighton SA who had recruited native labour for the dumps around Larrimah, Mataranka and out Rum Jungle way in 42/43 during the Jap air raids. There were other players known to Stanners lads, such as a pair of influencial Rex’s from Glenelg, a mysterious Bill Thomson from Dee Why?, the Taswegian Maj. Nettlefold and his very tough ex Timor Ind. Co. Mob. I can guess your SM joker might have been a former confidant turned liability who became a risk to disclosure re plans for consignment, thus rendering hisef expendable….Seems TS/BS intend sticking with the Bill Moulds ‘JEstyn signature with promised backing of his ever supportive on tap ‘Anonymous’ team.

  132. milongal on June 2, 2019 at 10:39 am said:

    @JS you alluded to an interesting point re the Rubaiyats. Was J ever shown the (courage and friendship or whatever) rubaiyat that was found?
    It’s sort of plausible that they mention the Rubaiyat and she links it in her mind to a version that looks totally different (because she doesn’t know anything of the one that is found). If she has seen it, however, it’s sort of unlikely she links it to the one Alf claims was from her (and there’s certainly a possibility he’s the one playing games, not her) – but it sort of would also suggest that the police also knew the book was wrong (not withstanding your ideas that it’s a totally different book)

  133. not ken howard on June 2, 2019 at 10:43 am said:

    If that’s your starting gate, Dusty, the first hurdle is where were your horses on or about October 1946?

  134. It would be London to a brick on that Xavier and the well shod McInnis bros, were mounted during their round up at Julia Crick in ’47, before the haul south to SA. In fact there is a yarn about a nag without a name in the U of Q files, with a pic of a horses arse hanging out the back of their tarped blitz , a rifle and a Hillman. A new post on Bill Stanners boys has a group photo of a ton or more of his lads, all named but with no sign of Alf, Dave, Xavier or Stanner taken in ’42/’43. I’ve partially checked it for obvious wop names like Styne and the midget Arnold Deucshbag that Nick had the hots for, but none show up on the nominal rolls so, we’re sort of fraked on that line. Any suggestions that won’t involve search fees?..If this doesn’t get a run on once reliable Ciphermysteries, I’ll send it under separate cover.

  135. milongal: There are several quotes in the local and interstate rags of the nurse describing the Ron Francis ROK as being similar to one she gave to the Lieutenant three and a half years ago when she was at RNSH in Sydney. That could only mean she was shown it, or else saw a photo of the front cover, pertaining as such to the the ’41 Kiwi Courage & Friendship edition and most certainly not Alf’s Jestyn signed A.W. Hamilton ’44 edition.

  136. Flash:
    Cmndr. R.B. Long OBE lived 7 miles from Sydney and a thousand miles from care!
    Major W. Jestyn Moulds OBE lived 700 miles from R.B. Long and didn’t really care! My own humorless take on an old promotional motto for the Sydney beach suburb of Manly. Only accessable to weekend picknic crowds from t’other of the harbour, by Ferry before the much celebrated bridge opening in 1932. Capt. Francis De Groote your own ‘New Guard Association’ cut the tape.

  137. Chuck Brownhold on March 1, 2020 at 8:48 pm said:

    Have you done an article on the “LUE” symbol map ?

    this blog article is probably the best description of it

    http://danerator.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-lue-map.html

  138. john sanders on March 2, 2020 at 3:41 am said:

    Pete: I Can’t begin to thank you for the mention of my visits to your blog over the years. Whilst the figures are impressive, I really can’t take all the credit, not in these days of digital automation gagetry. I’m usually far from the online action in the early morn, being out there pounding on my routine daily half+ marathon, or in the late afternoon, enticing hungry river snake head to strike. Sorry to disappoint.

  139. john sanders on March 10, 2020 at 11:50 am said:

    Talking about shooting oneself in the foot, poor old Gordon Cramer has gone and done it again with his Archbald (sic) Maule Ramsay nomination for having come to Australia with his pro nazi agenda in 1949; this being based on a Bob Wake’s CIS alert communication to his boss outlining the arrival of an unamed Scottish Captain purportedly to hook up with Tom Blamey’s anti communist ‘Association’ chaps. Problem is, Gordon’s hot new candidate Archbald likely never have set foot on our shores and besides, Wake made it as plain as could be that it coudn’t have been Ramsey, who afterall had served as an army Captain (no post service rank entitlement) with the Coldstream guards in WW1. Reminds us of Maj. William Jestyn Moulds from a while back who managed to get Peteb sold hook line and stinker on that good officer’s nefarious links to Alf Boxall and Jestyn Harkness’ in the verse 70 debacle. One thing we can give the old AfIO charlatan is his reluctance to delete (pride) his crap like his pal Pete when he gets caught out, so some misplaced credit to him for sticking by his guns under when under threat of exposure.

  140. john sanders on March 11, 2020 at 6:45 am said:

    For an even better example of a real con man at work, try this one taken from Bigfooty where Gordon has recently received a promotion and Redacted aka Gordon is now chief investigator on the Somerton case, along with Ruth Collins who has been recruited for her in-depth knowledge on Thomson genealogy matters

    Starts with Gordon as Redacted via his SM-A305 YN Tapatalk commenting off subject about a WW2 white tie victory ball from trove…Just to prep us for the finale on this at times occasionally interupted thread line.
    Gordon as Redacted comes on again requesting help re ownership of 90A Moseley St. Glenelg.
    Gordon as himself replies that he will instruct his shadow Clive Turner to get on the case, Clive being the all purpose ferrit whose phrasiology is much like Gordon.
    Gordon as Redacted seems to be worried on the cost, as if such triviality would be a concern in a matter of such wide reaching interest and need for total resolution.
    Gordon as hiimsrelf reports on Clive’s success and after some name shuffling he gives himself as Redacted a positive lead to 90A in the form of Prof. Alexander David Ross who just happened to have worked in secret govt projects during WW2. And to top it off we the fawning dupes are shown a nice govt. ball picture of Perth based (since 1908) ‘A. Ross’ in ’54 white tie and all.

    As it turns out, the old Thomson rental had been in the name of an Ernest John Ross and an A. Ross whom Gordon, as is his imposterial wont decided would be a fine fit for Alexander Ross, obviously on his files as a potential inclusion in links to espionage at some convenient stage.
    My suspicions were almost immdiately answered with a quick tapatalk of my own to S.A. Genialogy who correctly informed me that old Ernest and his dear wife Nita (Anita) are at rest in Adelaide, he from ’71 she from ’80. I very much wanted to inform someone until realising that not a soul was likely to give a rat’s bottom.

    This happens to be just one of the many instances where this villain has had the affrontery to deceive or attempt to decieve any body foolish enough to follow his line. Over the years he has also been aided and abeted by a well known group of unbelievably dedicated co conspirators, least of these being Peter Bowes who has now at least come to his senses to some degree, whilst going along full steam with his own rather easy to read and childish game.

  141. milongal on March 11, 2020 at 6:47 pm said:

    @JS: There’s a reason I stopped reading some sites (and why some I never read – I’ve only ever been to bigfooty to discuss read about footy – which I lost interest in last year as the Dees plummeted from their 2018 achievements….)

    NB: I think some of the above mentioned parties took over anemptyglass (which I’ve since stopped reading) with a view to promoting the idea that Fedosimov who was not really Fedosimov (that is, the picture of the man we have from the forties who is also Fedosimov of Venona fame (we’ll call him “Major” because MAJ wasn’t his alias – or something), but not Fedosimov who later represented the USSR at IAEA conferences) was SM…
    As I say, there’s a reason I quickly give up on such sites – it’s hard for a pleb like me to follow let alone understand some of the logic.

  142. john sanders on March 12, 2020 at 3:56 am said:

    Pb,

    Sorry but I’m not really seeing too much of anything I could have said to justify the childish rant for my perported sledging of your supportive online pals dude 1974 (temp), Ruth Collins 1955 and aka Gordon Cramer1947 your co-conspiratorial pal.

    Anyhow Pete you called the truce and I for my part will uphold it within reason. I’m trying to figure what’s with Tomsbtwo’s posted wartime snap of a young Fred Leigh and his babes, looks like Geylang 37 Singapore though must have been before 453 Sqn’s game changing non tactical withdrawal to DES a full two weeks before the nips arrived.

  143. For the record: Sanders is mocking my father’s part in WW2 ..

  144. john sanders on March 14, 2020 at 5:38 am said:

    …and as if I or anybody else including the Commonwealth of Austruckingfailure ever gave a damn, I still have a bullet lodged below my left knee, fragments of a bullet in my right hand (knuckles), along with various RPG fragments to scalp, right front shoulder, right costal margin (rib cage) and legs, all thankfully well settled after fifty years. I distinctly recall the fire coming from the side and rearwards so thankful for small mercies and I’ll go with the evidence even if it don’t neatly fit, just like I’ve always attempted to do with VM & Tamam Shud investigations.

  145. john sanders on March 14, 2020 at 1:42 pm said:

    Nick: Thanks for small mercies; not quite all that I wanted to say but good enough to get the general message across and the rest I’ll keep in obeyance.

  146. john sanders: you didn’t need those other ten comments to make your general point. :-/

  147. john sanders on March 14, 2020 at 2:05 pm said:

    NP: Not that I like to admit it, but at the end of the day you played fine, done good as the man said, and I’m totally satisfied with the way things panned out thanks to your better mindful insight than one under continual provocation.

  148. john sanders on March 15, 2020 at 3:28 am said:

    Some may have mistakenly thought for the barest milli second that the evil menace meant what he said about putting up the shutters at tomsbytwo. It now proves that our stalking deceiver had no such intentions, having recovered his tattered nerves.

  149. your nemesis on March 15, 2020 at 10:10 am said:

    Hullo sweetie …

  150. john sanders on March 15, 2020 at 10:48 am said:

    Hello y’self sweaty…See you’ve got your ‘mother goose’ truce up again. If it it’s not yet another ruse I’ll honour it, until any loose excuse for abuse is detected.

  151. john sanders on March 16, 2020 at 12:04 pm said:

    It seems to have been determined by our esteemed moderator, that in view of the fact that recent personalised sledging by Peter Bowes and John Sanders bear absolutely no relevance to the so called Somerton Man discussions, their continued sledging should be deemed no longer suitable for publication. So in the interestests of creating a more harmonious invironement, I’ve decided to step aside from further harmful banter and self isolate which should enable our more moderate Voynicheros a chance to resolve their petty differences without further disruptive interference…PS My self Isolation has nothing to do with the current international Corolla, Sars or R2 D2 viruses, all of which have been thankfully eradicated from my host nation..by decree.

  152. Ok with me, digger. All square.

  153. пожалуйста on March 17, 2020 at 10:06 am said:

    Nick, do you have a view on the value of a POLE-based database and graph for the SM “data” we have? It seems to me to be a superficially attractive proposition to be able to query relationships between nodes, especially with functions such as shortest path’ – but this isn’t my domain, so I may just be blinded by the pretty webs it weaves, and I’m not familiar enough with the known SM data/information to assess whether it would form a useful base. Perhaps there just isn’t enough to warrant it? And is there lack of appropriate public datasets to plug in to exploit the technology?

    Apart from plod, do you think anyone has attempted this, e.g. on an investigation /Intel platform or a db like neo4j?

  154. john sanders on May 25, 2020 at 2:41 pm said:

    Peteb: You’ve either got it in you or you don’t; as they say it’s all in the genes and Peteb always gets the last word at tbt…Anyhow mofo, did you note on your last most interesting but alas dreary threadline that Paul’s diary entry actually makes no specific mention of Jessie Thomson. He refers to a Mrs. Thompson with a ‘P’ who, for all we know could have been old Elizabeth Thomson of Hambley Bridge who visited at the morgue, then just maybe was shown the bust on 26th July, same day as our Jess. and we recall her futile attempts to intervene at the June 21st inquest. I think it was Feltus who came up with the good sort assessment in his book but young Jessie Harkness at 4′ 9″ with crook chompers was certainly no stunner.

  155. milongal on May 25, 2020 at 8:49 pm said:

    A very small thing….

    In a lot of the literature (including Dr Abbott’s “List of things we DO know”) it talks about Jessica’s number being unlisted. But that can’t be true….
    Didn’t GF find the number by painstakingly combing the telephone directory? An unlisted number (by definition) wouldn’t have been listed there – and if he found it linked to her (as opposed to ol’ Prosper) in the ‘phone book, then perhaps it explains why the police were interested in her not Prosper. But of course, that might tie back with JS’s point above – was it listed as Thomson or Harkness?

  156. john sanders on May 26, 2020 at 12:03 am said:

    GF’s claimed spare time search through the SA directory had to be contrived; for one thing the ’47 edition with it’s eight thousand private listings could have been covered in an a trice to find the required listing. Apart from that he and Det. Ron Thomas had been a team in the seventies and Ron was the known authority on all things connected to Somerton Man in those days including the Nurse’s likely residential details and Moseley Street phone numbers, one private, the other most likely a classified listing under medical professionals.

  157. john sanders on May 26, 2020 at 5:23 am said:

    Peteb may well have been a fine and creative compositor in a younger and less confused part of his life, but fudging numbers and keeing two copies of a client’s ledger books does not equate to spotting often overlooked criminal evidence; Case in point being his latest Paul Lawson diary notes in which he somehow manages to create an aura of suspicion that the old codger was somehow part and parcel to an intricate murder cover-up conspiracy. Of course when Peteb’s wild fantasies are themselves supported by ex Cramer stars Misca and Rob Nowak it must stroke his self proclaimed angry intellectual image no end, giving the old phony all the more reason to get on with the farce.

    Paul’s Diary entry for 15th June 1949 includes two separate sets of visitors, which includes detectives Brown, Noblet and Leane police to discuss matters pertaining to the completed job. Then we find him entertaining two complete strangers in the form of D. Cleland and a Mr. NBT who showed up to view the completed bust and to which Bowes seems blissfully ignorant. So who are these worthies who are not important enough to mention. Seems to me that one is probably David Fullarton Cleland a Lawyer and heir to the Chateau Tanunda/seppelts empire, a partner of Sam Jacobs, future Supreme Court Judge as well as Prosper Thomson’s one time solicitor of notice; As for the other cove I’d make a guess and say possibly a former top SA detective named Noblett who may have had an inkling about someone from the past. He would have been accorded full fraternal rights no doubt.

  158. milongal on May 26, 2020 at 9:05 am said:

    Incidentally fell down some other rabbit holes….
    There was a MISS AM Harkness at 32 Augusta St Glenelg
    I could imagine siblings sort of ending up in similar places, but there’s nothing other than a surname to suggest that here….

    (NB: Working off memory, not off notes)
    A Carl Thomsen mentioned elsewhere on this site (possibly by me) born 1906 and serving in WW2 is quite interesting (but I can’t fund any Riverland/Mallee connection).
    His full name was Wellmet Karl Grenfell Thomas Thomsen (might have got the order wrong). Wellmet was his mum’s name – and given she appears to have died the day (the records show day before) that he was born, it sounds like she died in childbirth (aged 22). Her husband (Charles Thomsen) and her biological family (mum HA Reynolds and 2 sisters (M Brisbane and E Buchanan)) continued placing “in memoriam” notices for a lustrum or two after she died.
    Papa Charles Thomsen appears to have died in the 1930s (1931 or 1933 I think).
    On 30th November 1946 (couldn’t help but notice the coincidence with the day of the year) WKGT Thomsen placed adverts in the papers looking to be appointed administrator of his Mum’s estate and Executor (or similar) of his Dad’s will.

    BUT. BUT. BUT. I can’t seem to make any links to SA with them (although there are a lot of gaps especially between Dad dying and Karl trying to take control of his parent’s affairs).

    There was a lot of Thomsen activity (by different Thomsen’s) in country SA. Most significant of that lot (as far I can tell) was a Niels Valdemar Thomsen originally of Adelaide who fathered the K Thomsen (Kingsley Bernard) that appears in the 1948 S&M in what is today Westbourne Park. He divorced his wife (Jessamine Charlotte Gamlen Thomsen) in 1934 (actually, more accurately she divorced him), and somewhere in between he moved overseas. Their daughter Gwendolyn married a Stuart Bowles in 1939 (but was given away by her (I assume Maternal) Grandfather….
    Either way, they’re not obviously related to the NSW lot, and neither are obviously related to the Thomsen of Mangnoson fame (but I found the Valdemar coincidence particularly….er….coincidental….)

  159. пожалуйста on May 26, 2020 at 10:20 am said:

    @milongal

    Somewhere on here, a little while back, PeteB posted a question that I’m hoping you can answer yet, possibly in order to put a further nail in the coffin of the long-haul body deposition excursion supposedly indulged in by persons unknown yet observed. The question was:

    Where is/was the location of the “dugouts” along the beach at Glenelg/Somerton?

    It’d be really helpful for someone resident offshore if you could provide any answer with a handy reference point (e.g. about level with X street).

    Thanks!

  160. milongal on May 26, 2020 at 8:05 pm said:

    @пожалуйста
    Short answer, I don’t know.
    Longer Answer: I vaguely remember trying to answer Pete’s question. I had always assumed they were further South (toward Brighton) (add this to the URL /tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-368105)
    But even rereading my answer there it talks about the Broadway (North of where the body was found) and Whyte St (South of it).

    BD seems to suggest they were North – or at least that there were sand dunes North.
    Although I do recall sand carting because of sand movement (from memory from West Beach even further North to Semaphore and Largs) I wouldn’t really associate Adelaide metro beaches with sand dunes – there’s perhaps hints of them from Henley to Semaphore – typically where sand has been caught at a fence (and I suppose the existence of a seawall along much of that stretch of coastline suggests that those Western suburbs are built on large sandhills (which you really notice in the topography of streets around Henley and Tennyson).

    I sort of have a vague recollection (can’t find the thread) that though I’d originally thought it referred to some sort of location on the actual beach it actually referred to shack-like cabins or houses along the esplanade (but much further South). That is, that the reference was metaphorical rather than physical (the “have nots” who were digging out a life for themselves) – I *think* (have to find some references) that although even then beachside suburbs would have been largely for the affluent, that further South (in my mind Brighton to Seacliff) there were small properties with crude shacks on them between the beach and what is now Brighton Rd – but that’s a big crossover of reseach, speculation and imagination.

    But googling now the only dugouts I can find reference to is the housing at Coober Pedy and some artefact of Cornish miners around Burra (both nowhere near metro Adelaide),

  161. milongal on May 26, 2020 at 8:08 pm said:

    It’s always after you hit submit….found this from 1927 which might indicate another use for the term:

    FIRE AT BRIGHTON. SIDESHOW BURNT OUT.
    Shortly after 10 o’clock on Saturday night smoke was seen issuing from a sideshow on the Brighton Esplanade known as
    “Dave’s Dinkum Dugout.” The alarm was given by Mr. E. H. Fryer, and the prompt arrival of the fire brigade -prevented the flames front threading to other booths.
    The whole of the contents of the shed, valued at. about £100, were destroyed.

    So perhaps “dugouts” was a local person’s reference to the sideshows at Brighton?

  162. milongal on May 26, 2020 at 8:33 pm said:

    Or perhaps it’s a little “all of the above”.
    This from 1943:
    Lived in Dugout
    Alfred Henry Bellman, of no fixed place of abode, was sentenced in the Brighton Court today to 14 days’ imprisonment for having had insufficient lawful means
    of support. It was stated that he had been living in a dugout on the beach.

    There’s certainly lots of pictures of tents around Brighton Jetty through the 20’s (and talk of “Christmas Camp” at State Library of sa (slsa) picture collection (collections slsa sa gov au )

  163. john sanders on May 26, 2020 at 11:36 pm said:

    RN: From as far north as Broadway right along Somerton Beach to John Miller Reserve, between Alvington House and Miller Reserve; thence all the way South along the beach and East to Minda Home at Hove were extensive dunes with their so called cave ‘dugouts’ being found right through to Wattle Reserve, Brighton. In fact sand hovels or douvers? as they were known in the 20s had been part of the Adelaide beach scene for many years… Peteb’s last unresponded related querie was undoubtedly a ruse leading up to one of his usual smart arse interrogatories; intended to give him the last word.

  164. john sanders on May 27, 2020 at 3:00 am said:

    We’ve been taunted by enough Carl Thomsens and Thompsons over the past dozen years now to drive us bonkers!…..and besides, according to poor, possibly deranged Keith Mangnoson or his interpretter of 7/12/48 Det. Erol Canney, the man from the cold snowy climate was named Thompsen. I recall mentioning a certain Carl ‘wheelbartow’ from just such an unclement part of the world, an itinerant farm worker with cameleering and dingo shooting experience who had jumped ship and married a nurse Davis from Clare Hospital who, after giving birth to young Peter-Boy in ’38 had sent him back home to treat a life threatening organic disease. For those who recall Bert Cleland’s “Britisher”, Dr. John Dwyer’s “The appearance of being an educated man” and Ina Harvey’s “..Polite quiet and didn’t murder the Kings English” descriptions, this particular Carl almost fills the bill and a very well schooled fifth column candidate indeed, indeed… PS: Carl was still living in ’48 though “we don’t know where he are” now unless…

  165. john sanders on May 27, 2020 at 4:02 am said:

    This one is intended for our ‘Grapes of Wrath’ micro writing scam scanner: When is a claimed 17th century German illustration not?…answer being when it’s labeled as being 19th century. We might concede that the faux pas was deliberate and merely intended to check on whether anonymous BS contributors be up to speed with the latest Major Moulds – Alf Boxall – Jestyn 70 news on recall to Bill Simpson’s Aust Int. mob following their pseudo war time links with the Godless commies.

  166. john sanders on May 27, 2020 at 9:03 am said:

    Well that was certainly a swift response from Gordon who has obliged us with a deceptive cover up in the form of a newly inserted 17th century portrait above the offending 19th century German original piece to negate his silly blunder. Should anybody wish to view the evidence of that single picture post, I can of course oblige as if anyone would doubt my call or give two hoots.

  167. пожалуйста on May 27, 2020 at 5:44 pm said:

    @Sanders @milongal

    To be fair to PB, he raised the dugout query on my behalf, as part of a discussion over at his place about body deposition and my general downer on things Feltus.

    Context: I’d overheard by way of the very good BBC world service documents about the Isdal Woman an interesting “fact”. The Norwegian copper in charge of this (quite literally) cold case claimed that no known recent murder involved (whole) body deposition further than 75 metres by foot from a vehicle or similar transport. The implication was that this was an academically researched, empirical fact. I haven’t found any relevant papers, but was curious to apply this ‘rule’ to “the dugouts” to at least form a preliminary view on the relevance of eye witness accounts of a “body” being carried along the beach.

    Fwiw: I think it’s very probably bollocks. As is all the bickering over the “wrong trousers”. The body was there all night. It didn’t move. The lividity is as expected, simply because the witness statements from the morning of discovery have been misinterpreted, influenced perhaps by the “classic” SM pose on the Feltus cover, together with the much later photos of the “sea wall”. Together these appear to paint a misleading picture of the scene.

  168. milongal on May 27, 2020 at 8:12 pm said:

    My understanding was the witness statement (keeping in mind they didn’t come forward until 1959) was that they (the witness) were walking towards the dugouts (so the body wasn’t necessarily carried from there).

    Some random hings that have occurred to me recently that may or may not have been covered/mentioned (only 1 about the dugouts)
    1) What if the “dugouts” was a more recent term (a term that described something in the 50s, not 40s) – that doesn’t discredit the witness, but they’re describing a 1948 incident in 1959 references. Did the witness mention dugouts, or is that inserted by someone else to try to clarify directions the witness used?
    2) Envelopes and air mail stickers have lots of sites suggesting “he clearly wanted to send some letters” – what about stamps? Presumably you have to go to a PO to get air mail stickers (and possibly envelopes), so why wouldn’t you pick up a sheet of stamps?
    3) Chewing gum? I thought the guys teeth were in pretty ordinary condition – how would you go chewing when you’re missing a few chompers? Would smoking and chewing have been common co-habits (I know they were later, but I think that was largely as a stigma started to attach itself to smoking)
    4) The coins in the suitcase – would people carry phone-change back then, or did that come later (a very brief google suggests that there may have been public phones around by the 40’s, and that a local call would likely cost 1p).
    5) The damn tickets, those damn tickets. I have so much problem with those damn tickets (but I’ve ranted excessively about them before).
    6) not 1, but 2 combs on his person. I sort of understand someone carrying a comb (especially if they regularly meet people and need to present well) – but why carry 2? Especially when you have a nice suitcase you could leave one in
    7) 6 pencils. Drafting pencils. Why do we record 3 of them are H (is that just to emphasise that they’re for drafting)? I know some people’s opinion on the pencils, but it seems a long bow….not least because surely we could get even finer grade pencils…..

    I think I had other thoughts, but they’ve skipped off for now….

  169. john sanders on May 28, 2020 at 4:41 am said:

    One can hardly blame poor Bowes for his ongoing confusion over Tamam Shud slip inconsistencies. I’ve done my level best to explain in simple terms the logical reasoning behind his dilema; Apropos suspicious time gaps on finding of a slip by Bert Cleland in mid April ’49, but then his subsequent recovery of same and finally the ROK fragment being taken into police possession for evaluation. Several follow up inquiries at the behest of Dets. Leane & Brown each of which confirmed the initial translation as reported in the April newspapers were done simply for favour of a second opinion. Nothing suspicious at all there, just basic detective work in play.

    No confusion at all really. However, if we then take into consideration, as we must, there have been in fact two identical Tamam Shud slips, from two identical ROKs reported by two different Glenelg entities on the very same day, that being 22nd July ’49, then we need to be delving a little deeper into the whys and wherefores and scratching our heads. I can recall discussing this all in some detail some time back but I doubt that the post survived a subsequent destructive ‘Flash’ flood; Suffice to say there is clear and irrefutable evidence to support the two TS slip scenario and it’s there for all to see in the inquest depositions.

  170. john sanders on May 28, 2020 at 2:23 pm said:

    Getting back to my Carl from the other day which everyone interested in Keith Mangnoson’s ID will surely recall, he was born on 13th August 1907, and was most likely affected by internal complications of sclerodermia or some equally diabolical ailment at the time of his repatriated back to his cold homeland from Perth in early 1939. Wife Chris and two year old son Peter then settled in South Australia with her mum Mrs. Davis nee Boxall where she spent the war years employed at Finsbury munitions factory. Both Detective H. Strangway and Bob Cowan just so happened to be ensconsed at that establisment for valuable wartime service in their particular fields, policing and chemical inspection. She would most assuredly have known Harry as a consequence of her CIS interrogations concerning her husband’s allegence to Germany in 1943.

    From 1940 onwards Carl who had apparently regained his health and studied to be a Chiropractor, worked as a translater of English, Russian, Polish and French with the third Reich in an economics portfolio. He corresponded with his Family and his letters reveal an apparent love for the classics, especially childrens works, most notably Wind in the Willows which he mentioned to young Peta-Boy along with some subtle snipes at the blundering Brits and much praise for Adolph Hitler’s condemnation of the Jews. When later interned by the Americans as a renegade, he relented in his facsist idiology and commenced a concerted though apparently unsuccessful course of action to reclaim his British subject status and reconnect with family in Adelaide, ably assisted by many glowing recommendations re his change of idiology.

    As for what became of Carl, I’m not at all certain though I’d think it likely that he made it back, allbeit not seemingly reconnecting with kith and kin for some reason. Whilst his Canadian birn wife Christobel appears to perhaps have spent some time in country Victoria, she is nevertheless buried in Cheltenham cemetery, Adelaide where her son still resides to this day and is an active member of Prosper’s Vintage Automobile Association of S A. He ended up an intellectual type like his dad and had a career in graphic journalism with the good old Advertiser. Attempts to communicate with the young fellow are ongoing and I have a good yarn to spin if and when he decides to come in from the cold.

    This is all just a hunch, that there might be a connection to the SM prize but hey, it’s at least as likely as all our other dud attempts at ID eg. Tom Keane, Arnold Deustch, Chuck Mikkelsen & Fedosimov etc. It just so happens that my Carl’s birthday, as can be seen falls just short of the commencement date for the Adelaide annual agricultural show; remember what we were told. So should flowers suddenly appear on the Unknown Man’s top bunk plot around mid August, we might have picked ourselves a winner..One never knows their luck in a such a fine and dignified old town.

  171. milongal on May 28, 2020 at 8:08 pm said:

    @JS – what 2 slips? I know the newspapers seemed to imply it (but I quite readily dismiss that as journalistic confusion). You seem to suggest there’s some other evidence of 2 slips (in the inquest?) – could you elaborate?

    I’m interested because I’ve neer been entirely comfortable that the slip they found actually was the one they were looking for (to me the fact that it had (supposedly) been ripped out and then neatly trimmed up so that it didn’t match the hole whence it came makes it difficult to imagine a purpose for it (other than a suicide note – but the fact it was cleverly hidden seems to dismiss that idea) – and I think the idea of it being planted becomes even more confusing when the book and the slip don’t obviously match)….
    So I’ll happily accept there were multiple slips but was wondering how we know that (other than speculation)

    Regarding your Carl (I’m assuming we’re talking Thomp?s[eo]n) – would he have ever been working out on the fruit orchards in the riverland (presumably immediaely before his return to Perth)? He doesn’t exactly sound like the labouring type….

  172. john sanders on May 29, 2020 at 12:00 am said:

    Milongal: Exibit C3 (f) tendered by Constable Moss following his evidence to the Coronial Inquest on 21 June, 1949, names the ‘Taman Shud’ Slip as part of the deceased personal possessions, being mindful in doing so that he did not find it…Later in the sittings Len Browns evidence concerning his paper match up enquiries culminated with him tendering the second slip in unmistakable terms, though perhaps confusingly described as being a ‘piece of paper’ and labeled exhibit C9 . Their can be no confusion on possibilty of one slip being tendered twice as the way evidence was collected, collated, presented and recorded, it could not have enabled such a stuff up to occurr. How folks could have overlooked the above is quite beyond the pale, me included especially in that I had raised the mysterious C9 exhibit often enough without really twigging to the ramifications. Makes me wonder what else might be amongst the SM ruins hidden in plain sight that could be a game changer.

    My Carl jumped ship at Port Pirie in 1927, made his way with an another young German to Alice Springs where the pair were knocking around looking for jobs connected with missions, a camel hire venture and dingo shooting on contract to the government. There is evidence to hand of his partner working with a mining company involved in gold exploration in early 31 but Carl was not part of that. Our lads then headed south to S.A. and became contract farm labourers working in and around the Clare Valley, Renmark and the Riverland districts for two years. When Carl met and married his Nurse Chris at Port Lincoln in ’34, his partner Paul moved to Melbourne, got into strife with car theft theft and was eventually jailed then deported from Brisbane. Carl went west to work farms near Ceduna from ’33 to ’38 when he moved to West Australia looking for similar employment. His son Peter was born there in February and he departed the Commonwealth in late January, 1939. PS: Note that Keith M. said his Carl was at Renmark in 1939 which wouod be a problem.

  173. john sanders on May 29, 2020 at 6:26 am said:

    D47: Dunno why I bother but some other mugger might get the drift. It was Harry Strangway’s case at the start and he worked out of Glenelg which was the nearest ‘D’ office. It took him only a trice to get to the bottom of things, especially after finding the TS which convinced this experienced old detective of no suspicious circumstances as might warrant a prolonged investigation. Next day being 2/12 the Adelaide press has him on a child sexual assault brief which to him would have been his idea of more useful police work. What later transpired to re start the brief is still subject of much speculation, such as would necessitate better pie in the sky fantasty theories than anyone including your TBT team have offered up to date. ….Peteb: I don’t usually lead folks down my garden path; that’s your specialty and I know from much cajoling that @milongal doesn’t bow to arse licking nor threats which as we all know are your greasy tools of trade.

  174. john sanders on May 29, 2020 at 6:56 am said:

    ….and I hasten to add, Harry was the longest serving detective in the force and legendary for his skills at deduction and observation (want examples?). A good family man who retired at 60 in 1955 and both daughters Trixy and Gweyth served with distinction in the RAAF throughout WW2; no clear blue bogey free skies for those dames.

  175. john sanders on May 30, 2020 at 12:01 am said:

    Having just received the desired evidence linking Carl’s wife and Harry Strangway that may well explain his having recused himself from the SM case I’m getting a better feeling abiut Carl. There was still some need at this stage of inquiries for a degree of fluidity due to unclear results of the autopsy and several ID attempts that needed follow-up so what gives. Chris knew Harry from Finsbury munitions establishment where both worked during the war and as OIC security, he would likely have been present when his former partner Detective Charles Trezona interregated her in 1943 for signs spousal contrition. …Trevona died suddenly not long after in non suspicious curcumstances aged 55.

    Chris may well have seen the early press accounts re the beach body, mentioning Detective Harry Strangway’s involvement and next day seeing the Advertiser photo of the deceased. If she then suspected, or had known for sure that it was her by now long estranged husband Carl, declared by Australia to be a persona non grata renegade from 5th November 1948; then why not go to Harry for advice. Having persued the available files I’d be confident that his wife would likely be the only person to know Carl’s identity, at least in Adelaide and she would have had no desire to have him named for a number of very good reasons…

  176. john sanders on May 30, 2020 at 5:27 am said:

    A high ranking police officer named was known to have used the term “Not too duck’n’fusty” when describing a lady he met at Adelaide mortuary in late 1948. This to a group at the Academy in 1973. From what I know now, he might well have been on about a certain Mrs. C. M. Von Czarnecki as his talk made mention of her name being of German or Polish origin. So if Errol Canney had been in the loop with his mentor Harry Strangway its pivital point, who else might it have included to enable a favourable, harmless and enduring outcome to be achieved for the merry widow One would have to include Harry’s old friend John Moss, though to what extent of complicity we can only guess; Scan Sutherland was on Harry’s SM case from the first though later selected to run interference between the Leane investigation other outside help, so he would be suspect. Then of course the ever so strange case of Robert Cowan, analyst who could find no trace of any chemicals amongst the viscal offerings in Dr. Dwyers guts bucket. Bob worked with Harry at the Finsbury plant and most probably knew the sad plight of the pretty factory first aid nurse Davis whose hubby was in an American military Gaol in Germany; Bob’s non discovery might not have been so surprising me thinks . As for the rest, I can only think of our Dr. Bennett the intern from from Royal Adelaide who left for Melbourne five minutes after inspecting the corps. He would also have bumped into Nurse Davis who may by then have resumed her pre war duties there and became complicit somehow thereby. I’ve done my best to put this all together without too much holding back and I’ll allow folks to decide what the path forward might be from their own perspective. I’d certainly recommend persusal of the two open NAA files on Henry Wilhelm Emil Carl Von Czarnecki to get a better feel for the man as a potential SM suspect and for those who wish to delve further there are two files behind a paywall with another under the name of Carl’s pal Otto Meier. ps: Don’t pay too much notice of file activity that goes beyond 1948; at the time the authorities had no idea where their man had gone to ground and assumed that he was alive in Germany…Carl of course from late ’46 or ’47 was likely to have been wandering around the S.A. interior, picking up odd jobs with other displaced persons and living rough in a humpy. He would surely have been tempted to see his son Peter one last time before his health gave out, but knowing full well the consequences if he was found and deported.

  177. john sanders on May 30, 2020 at 10:52 pm said:

    Violet Mangnoson, Keith’s younger sister, married a farmer named Symens from Renmark in 1933. In 1936 Lawrence Symens had some sort of dealings with Carl’s travel buddy Paul Johns which may have involved a commercial transaction. Paul had obtained a riders licence not long before this and given a Port Pirie address, but around that time he had been writing letters from Clare Hospital. When jailed for a second time in Queensland, before deportation to Germany in 1937 it did involve a stolen vehicle, possibly belonging to Symens, though the interstate police memos are not at all clear. Keith Mangnoson recalled that he knew Carl Thompsen from Renmark in early 1939 at which time C. Von Czarnecki was either in Perth or on his way to the Continent. This needs further exploration to determine validity.

  178. john sanders on May 31, 2020 at 11:00 am said:

    ……’The bus ticket produced and the rail ticket produced are similar to the tickets I found on the body. I did not find the slip of paper with the words Taman Shud… They happen to be the words in the affidavit of Const. John Moss attested to at the Coroner’s Inquest. In it he conceded however, that the slip was indeed part of the possessions taken from the body, by his having tendered it and having it exhibited C3 (f). When examining his words, a nuance, “I did not find the Taman Shud slip” stands out clearly giving rise to the alternate version, “Sure the TS slip was found, but not by moi, so leave me be”. Note that first responders PC Gollan and old hawk eye Strangway were not called as theur version would not have corroborared Leane’s differing explanation of the slips’ finding. Everything actually fell into place because Harry was probably not anxious to appear anyhow.

  179. john sanders on June 1, 2020 at 2:58 am said:

    I’m thinking that Christabel Czarnecki may well have returned to work at Adelaide Hospital, Finsbury plant was winding down in ’44. As it turns out that was the year that Somerton C.C. Home assisted the hospital to set up their cerebral palsey unit; so might I dare to be so bold in suggesting that a nurse Christabel Davis could have been on duty at Somerton on 31st November, 1948. I recall seeing names of some staff of that era in that great and informative rag ‘Adelaide Advertiser’.

  180. john sanders on June 1, 2020 at 5:19 am said:

    Nick: Albert Paul Johns and a partner established their car theft enterprise by means of a sophisticated enterprise for street snathes, engine/chasis number alterations and hasty disposal in major cities throughout Australia. Described in a Brisbane criminal court on 7/8/37 as a well educated German, he surprisingly copped the beef, as he had done previously in Alice Springs and was given 6 months, culminating in deportation which was contested by Sydney police who also wanted a crack at him. If we can show he was in cahoots with Carl Czarnecki aka Somerton Man than you may well have your TS slip (multiple slips) accounted for especially if an intrastate like consortium was involved…For the time being I’ll hold off on detail of Paul’s celebrated connection with another mystery death in 1931, which by volume of written related material, would leave Gerry’s Unknown Man in the shade. Johns later forged links with Moseley’s pro nazi group and was put away for the duration in 1939. In later life he ran a successful antiquarian bookshop in London, obviously dealing in fake 15th century manuscripts and the like and was still telling lies about his past to newspapers in the seventies.

  181. john sanders on June 1, 2020 at 10:41 am said:

    I have given much thought to the ’77 and ’80 outer Perth elecectoral roll entries for Henry Carl Von Czarnecki, aside from the ’37 WA regional mention under his full name of Henry William Emil Carl Von Czarnecki. From what I can gather the later listings were possibly registered by person who had obtained documentation in the earlier ligit man’s name. Other trap searches for the name only come up with several job seeking ads from ’36, and one being for the name C. Czarnecki and son on a ship from Perth to Adelaide in January ’39 which would have been his missus and young Peter heading, just before Carl’s own trip back to Germany. There are certainly no probate or burial records to suggest that any such person died in WA. but we I’ll keep trying for any post ’48 tie in…Speaking of ties, I suggest black and red with a nazi white pin stripe, not the red white and blue that has been pushed on us over the years by spy theorists.

  182. john sanders on June 1, 2020 at 12:05 pm said:

    A wild card possibilty for Henry Carl Von Czarnecki of Perth in that Carl’s son Peter bn. Perth 1936, only had one son Terry (no SA birth registration recorded) may also have had another son whilst still in his teens, say at 20 whom he named for his late father. If we go to SA geni. there’s a birth entry with the Von Czarnecki surname, but no christian name or birth year which cannot be Peter. Someone with paid up access to the site might like to check further, looking for a Henry Carl born around 1956 in S.A. who could have registered to vote in W.A. ’77 at age 21.

  183. john sanders on June 2, 2020 at 3:21 am said:

    Carl and his fellow nazi camel jockey friend Paul were both very articulate in a variety of languages and English with coloquial strine inflexion in particular. Following their their suspiciously means and place of entry to Australia in the late twenties they met and together took up casual itinerant farm work in those predominantly German settlements in the fruit bowl and grape areas with rail links to Adelaide. They were both prolific and competent writers with prose like pensmanship and economy of words that would not shame the likes of Graham Green. I note that most of their correspondents replied with fancy paper and letter heads that could later be bleached and put to good use in nazi Germany…A few of Carl’s work wanted ads from the Westralian for perusal and evaluation follow:

    15/2/36……Carl Von Czarnecki, MM, young man requires position in store ir sheep station in Nnarrogin-Williams district, refs. Fairbridge Pinjarra LL66.
    17/2/36……Carl Von Czarnecki, Manmanning, young man, 31, First class truck and tractor driver, handyman, trustworthy, abstainer, seeks employment NH22.
    17/2/36……Young married man, good knowledge general Ag. Farming, tractor or team, thoroughly capable manage small holding, sober, dependable, require decent cottage. Open 1 week. Apply C. Von Czarnecki Manmanning – Narembeen.

  184. john sanders on June 2, 2020 at 7:43 am said:

    A small volume entitled ‘Lasseter Demystified and two German Rouseabouts’ by Rev. Philipp Adolf Scherer (bn.1920 Tanunda S.A.) was published in 1996 and probably includes good detailed insight into Carl & Paul hopefully their adventures in Centralia during the late twenties and thirties. Perhaps it can be read on line somewhere though gaining access is a stretch beyond my capabilities. Of course it will depend on relevancy to SM at the end of the day.

  185. john sanders on June 3, 2020 at 4:58 am said:

    Boris aka Rob, will need to get used to Peteb’s pedantic tantrums or get a new sponsor for his “liberal views”. All the old fool has to go on, and filched from this blog at that, is Strapps’ striped duds that in his view, formed part of SM’s unseen suit. Details supporting the claim were paraphrased for young Gordon to sign off on, and to which the assisting constable also added the same non qualifying phrase thrice for old Jack Lyons, plus an ‘I should think’ for Olive. I doubt that any such terms would fit the legal definition of fact. ps: Bowes is guilding the lily with his insistance that Gordon thought that SMs ‘feet’ moved, and guessing about him not wearing glasses (wedding pics don’t count).

  186. john sanders on June 3, 2020 at 8:43 am said:

    A possibly important faux pas on my part is in my failure to pick up on the fact that Carl registered his first name as William in the Swan electoral rolls of ’36/’37 which he had never been known to use in his eleven years of residency in Australia. If it was deliberate as appears to be the case, then he was probably on the run from the authorities in S.A., NT or the eastern states where his confederate Paul Johns had moved around the same time. When johns was arrested in Qld he had mentioned that his car theft accomplice, possibly Von Czarnecki being placed into a mental institution from which he asconded.

  187. john sanders on June 4, 2020 at 5:45 am said:

    It seems quite likely that Detective Hector Gollan would have been our incomplete ‘I should say’ to the seventh power paraphraser prior to the Coronors Inquest sitting on 17th June. If so than perhaps he may be excused for omitting important directive pronouns, having himself the previous day faced a barrage of accusations in another jurisdiction concerning alleged infidelity with Coralie Bertram, directed through counsel by his lawful spouse Lurline Gollan. So now at last we have valid grounds for discarding almost all of what Gordon Strapps attested to; especially those unlikely striped trousers, that our friend across the way keeps hanging onto by a single Barbour thread.

  188. john sanders on June 4, 2020 at 6:31 am said:

    More news has just come to hand on me mate Carl Von Czanecki, though It’ll need some expressions of interest in order to draw it out.

  189. пожалуйста on June 4, 2020 at 4:45 pm said:

    @Sanders

    Sorry, my English not so good. But I am interested in brown-trousered mystery. Could you elaborate your point? I had not previously heard these names.

  190. john sanders on June 6, 2020 at 7:03 am said:

    I’ll put Mr. Pozhaluysta down as an expression of interest and proceed with an update on Von Czarnecki which is sure to raise ripples: A Karl Wilhelm Emil Czarnecki (Karl with a K at front & sans Von) is recorded as being a persecuted baltic Jew sometime in 1945 and was given temporary solace at a camp in Fritzlar-Homberg where he remained until 16th January 1946 with no further contact. I have been hard at it checking all Australia bound refugee sailings for 1947/8, namely those coming under auspices of the Fifth Fleet sailings out of Bremin, examining the passenger lists of each without a likely hit. In amongst the legit displaced folk, mostly young fit men, there were recorded a few that didn’t fit the health and or security criteria for entry and were presumably sent packing without having their names recorded. This infomation will at least confirm that old Bill Simpson was never likely to have caught up with our man and his people were still in the dark on his whereabouts as late as 1952 when they quit looking. I’m still inclined to the view that they were perhaps about four years too late and might better have conducted their search closer to home.

  191. Tammy Shud on June 6, 2020 at 7:28 pm said:

    Does anyone know what Gordon is on about in his latest post about micro-writing and some sort of subterfuge he claims to have uncovered with his “forensic tool”? I’ve read it several times but can’t get my head round it.

  192. john sanders on June 7, 2020 at 1:46 am said:

    Don’t really know TS; I should say if anyone knows about Gordon’s tool Tammy Should would.

  193. Tammy Shud on June 7, 2020 at 3:31 pm said:

    This gal leaves the tools to the handymen, John.

  194. john sanders on June 7, 2020 at 11:32 pm said:

    Perhaps we could get one of the ex TS/BS anonymous posters to spill the beans on Gordon’s forensic tool, Tammy; doubt that they’d stoop so low as to get their head around it though!

  195. Tammy Shud: looks a lot like same-old-same-old to me… but I would say that, wouldn’t I?

  196. john sanders on June 8, 2020 at 1:29 pm said:

    We could go on about Gordon’s Boxall & Jestyn, Pav Fedisomov, Kaldor & Danetta, the gallopping major & verse 70 &c etc; until the cows come home. At least he comes up with a couple of unlikely suspects from time to time with help from his loyal anonymous followers. As for old Pete Bowes, our ace later day sleuth, he has been on a seemingly endless loop of condemnation of poor failed mounted counstable and acting Det. Sgt. Leane for missing a swag of vital clues; significant stuff like matches, striped duds and Tamam Shud slips, that he spotted straight off by doing a quick perceptive troll through the TS Inquest docs. But never an ID suspect from the clown prince of mirth in ten years which seems a sad enditement indeed, indeed. The old fox is sure to give us a happy Bozo birthday ‘how’s your father’ come Saturday betcha….76 trombones for his big charade and still on the bugle.

  197. milongal on June 9, 2020 at 2:20 am said:

    @JS – I’m slow and have been absent a while. Are you saying [CK]arl the Pole/Balt/Jew Czarnecki might be Carl Thompsen?

    Some thoughts (that occured as I was reading your posts) that may or may not be relevant
    – Clare (Valley) and Renmark are a couple hundred Kilometres apart (and are probably distinct districts – the Riverland (Renmark, Berri, Loxton, Barmera etc) and Clare Valley (Clare, Auburn, Minato etc)
    – There is a “Polish Hill River” in the Clare Valley – Not sure whether that might attract Poles to live (as Hahndorf and the like would have attracted Germans)
    – Czarnecki definitely sounds more Polish than Baltic (although I’ll admit I’m far more familiar with Latvian names rather than other Baltic ones)

    I find Gordon sometimes has interesting stuff (but being interesting doesn’t necessarily make it relevant to SM – or even necessarily factual). He (and Clive, and possibly others) certainly seem to go to a lot of effort to thoroughly research the background (but again, that doesn’t necessarily convince me of the bigger story). Finding the original ‘Danetta’ was clever, however I think some of the assumption and ‘proof’ that followed misunderstood the tool that was used to analyse the text (and as I tried to demonstrate we could find similar ‘patterns’ in other things if we tried hard enough). For mine, there’s SO much that has been dismissed or ignored to help create the story (not least of which is PIF and his wife both appearing later – and while I take the point that the picture isn’t necessarily PIF, there seems to then be a peculiar (and arbitrary) picking and choosing of which PIF bits still relate and which we can be dismissed – to me that’s a clear case of confirmation bias). That said, I still occasionally read some of the content and ideas. But like other sites, I’ve often found commenting is filtered (either doesn’t appear, or appears to have been edited/cut) – and while that’s a blog-owner’s prerogative it puts me off participating (and even reading) because it feels like any ideas that are ever so slightly contrary to the blog’s thoughts are dismissed and ignored (another sign of confirmation bias).

    Last time I dug through trove (I think a couple weeks back) I increasingly started to agree that a lot of the “other stuff” that happened in Adelaide around the time (including Pruzinski and Tibor and a whole host of other characters) was certainly strange – and somewhat coincidental that so much strange and not obviously related stuff was near-simultaneously occuring…..
    Maybe there was a full moon in late-Nov?

  198. milongal on June 9, 2020 at 2:29 am said:

    oh @JS I meant to mention…..
    I think the Polish are predominantly (and fairly devoutly) Catholic – probably too recent to be able to find Baptism records in Radelaide around that time (if it’s metro there’s a large Polish community down South…..possible around (but I don’t think at) Morphett Vale (not Morphetville!)? (Google suggests Ottoway in the Western Suburbs – which I remembered as being a different ethnic community (Slov(ak/ene) or Croation or something…) – but if their church is named for St Maximillian Kolbe then Polish would seem likely…..

  199. john sanders on June 9, 2020 at 3:01 am said:

    I guess a decent interval has passed since my prompt response to milongal’s query re the two distinct TS slips and his brief comment on my Carl identity, both bourne of a great deal of determined in depth investigation…What net gain after almost two weeks?, nada thats what and it goes not only for other punters that might have caught the posts on line, but also Adelaide Advertiser, Sapol and Peter-boy Von Czarnecki my nominees son, who had once been a staffer on their payroll.

    If anything I’d say the lack of comment by SM posters is not so much based on any general lack of interest or the subject not being considered worthy of reply. I’m quite hopeful that the abject silence is more than likely to be a sign of confidence that we are at last on to a very serious contender. As for the other nominal parties to the proceedings, I’m certain that they would have also responded by now if they had not taken the Henry Wilhelm Emil Carl Von Czarnecki identification seriously.

  200. john sanders on June 9, 2020 at 7:14 am said:

    milongal: Actually my Carl was neither Polish, Baltic or Jewish; He was in fact a home grown German and a Lutheran, though not devout. After the war, due to his ability for faking paper work such as legation letter heads and his near polymath language skills, he could well have used any ruse necessary to obtain whatever credentials required for his return to his family in Australia and ASAP.

  201. john sanders on June 9, 2020 at 11:12 am said:

    milongal: Apart from letters disguised as naked ladies in a certain well known book, my knowledge of their assigned values is admittedly rather scanty. Still I can’t see any cleverness about matching five rather common letters forming a word like Danetta to the ROK code, which just happens to comprise over two thirds of the alphabet. Of course at the time, Peteb of ” I’m a believer ” fame, thought it extremely clever and said so in glowing terms. So who am I to buck the trend, my only comments of that event being related to Danetta identifying with the devils number in Lapland which of course drew no replies….bloke can’t ‘ardly win a trick.

  202. milong on June 10, 2020 at 5:10 am said:

    I forget the exact specifics of how Danetta came about, but I remember originally thinking (despite etan being in the most common 6 letters, and d probably in the most common 10) that it was certainly intriguing (although in the absence of anything more nothing past intriguing).

    But beyond that all the excitement seemed to be about the output from a tool which simply tries to apply different code-breaking/analysis techniques…..but wasn’t particularly meaningful unless it was assumed to have been produced in the exact sanme order as this online tool had decided to output it….

    I haven’t considered the microwriting too much – not because I don’t think the technique doesn’t exist, but because if we’re struggling to get properly legible results from it today, then how on earth were people in the late 40’s actually reading the stuff?

  203. Tammy Shud on June 10, 2020 at 12:01 pm said:

    @Sanders @milongal quite apart from 1) the byzantine “recovery” techniques required; 2) the evidently pareidolic nature of the “micro-writing” (the harder you look, the more you start seeing feels like a give-away); and 3) the frequent opaque treatises regarding others’ subterfuges, “evidenced” with meaningless pictures that are presented as conclusive evidence of god only knows what…

    The thing that seems missing is the interpretation and the reasons. Why is “Danetta” meaningful? Why are the numbers relevant. How is micro writing that is concealed across huge swathes of page real estate to be sequenced in order to render it meaningful.

    I think others have asked this over the years, but I haven’t seen any answers.

  204. john sanders on June 10, 2020 at 10:56 pm said:

    @ Tammy Should: Danetta, ‘ as God be my judge’, is perhaps merely a reflexion of a great man’s liberal, humanitarian values…according to me mate Bob.

  205. john sanders on June 11, 2020 at 6:59 am said:

    Just a couple of days back I made mention of my Carl candidate having been a Lutheran which I would have left at that, but for a Beaumont crossover of sorts. 1948 was a time of some consternation between elements of the Lutherans in Australia, one of which had allegences to the fatherland and the other like Pastor Clarie Zwecks mob of 144 Jetty Rd. Glenelg to Blighty. I noticed that the church’s location between Partridge St. and Brighton Rd. (Somerton bus Sts. out & back ’48) was in very close proximity to Peter’s cakes at 152, Oliver’s bakery at 158 and Wenzels cakes at 164…..If Carl wasn’t in such a rush to die he could have de-bused to swing by Pr. Zweck for his confessional adieu, after which he may well have tucked into a pie or pasty, taking a spare for ‘ron’ (1/- no sauce) then hopped on the next bus to his destiny stop at Alvington-on-Sea.

  206. john sanders on June 11, 2020 at 12:35 pm said:

    Peteb: According to Alf Boxall, when the police accompanied him back to his house on 27th or 28th July, 1949, they did ask whether he still had the ROK given to him by the unamed nurse, but didn’t wish to see it. That particular verse dual language copy or another copy wasn’t produced until a gentleman of the press asked him to long after the cops had decamped, apparently satisfied that their assigned task was satisfactorily completed. Now apparently you have another contrary version which has been posted over your way; so show us the meat or else delete and beat a retreat as is your wont.

  207. john sanders on June 12, 2020 at 3:16 am said:

    Only response from our all knowing apropos the police lack of interest in Alf’s ROK, was his timely removal of two related posts from his site, which of course I had lifted in expectation. As for the remainder of threadbare thread, lets try to do them in order; Alf Boxall, 11 Parer St. Maroubra, Susie or Isobel, Lieutenant WT, Georges Head, Clifton Gardens, A/Capt Tom Musgrave & Joyce, 6th September ’45, Bismark Ils, AJS & Matchless.

    It’s no big deal to remember such detail after four odd years and Jessie was not likely to have forgotten events just before and just after hostilities. Off course the home address could have been found in the Sydney directory or off the letter alleged to have gone to her mother in ’46. As for Susie, I didn’t know that Jess ever spoke of her; anyhow her name may have come up at your ‘bar’ in general banter and I have a feeling that the other Mrs. Musgrave had been aquainted with Suzie.

  208. john sanders on June 12, 2020 at 6:57 am said:

    Peteb: Now in your little sideshow speel, you completely miss Alf Boxall’s point, that not only didn’t the fuzz care to see his ROK, they didn’t wish to visit his house either. You also may have misunderstood his version of how he came to be under notice. Again, from his own lips, he was informed that ‘the nurse’ read about a copy of ROK having had a message on the flyleaf which resonated and so she had informed police about having giving a copy to him. True or not it does make sense and I always considered that to be more likely than cops doing their illegal reverse phone number trick, thus allowing Detective Canney’s initiating contact with it’s subscriber, Sister J. E. Thomson.

  209. john sanders on June 13, 2020 at 9:06 am said:

    Turns out my memory ain’t as sharp as I had thought ie., 19 Parer St. not 11 as stated, Isabelle instead of Isobel (Boxall); Solomon Islands, not the Bismarks which are a little to the left. As for the bikes; Alfred John Alfred Boxall, was the dirt track specialist in the 30s, so the trove bike details probably refer to him and not our Alf who older and not so well known as his younger namesake cousin… My blue and always ready to fess up when I’m wrong.

  210. john sanders on June 19, 2020 at 4:52 am said:

    Any body still remember that fine day in mid January, 2017 when Cramer and his Misca-teers introduced Major Pavel Ivanovic Fedosimov to the world under proud tutelage of Clive Turner who manned the Russian desk in those days. We’re not to know who stuffed up, but Misca who was then in favour, blamed her boss who, due to his vast natural talent for pre post photographic imaging alterations, was the most likely offender as things transpired. Case in question resulted in one of the on line portraits depicting a digitally altered head shot sans glasses, of the then Soviet Ambassador to the USA Nikolai Novikov with the Fedisimov name caption in full below in thickest print format known to mankind. Gordon Cramer with his usual pomous aplomb remarked at the time how well the man’s natural features compared with those of the SM beach body photo….The weirdest part is that in the original Tas/Pravda press photo that Gordon had nicely cut and pasted for effect, standing right beside Ambassador Novikov, unloved & unwanted was our good old saddle nose Pavel, all of six five, narrow stoop shoulders and hands like a fairy’s. GC with his usual fine eye for detail having obviously deserted him, had apparently passed over Pavel Fedosimov, his soon to be one and only SM contender. At that time Pav must have been considered a mere distraction and a nonentity; which of course any wise ass would know to be God’s honest truth.

  211. john sanders on June 20, 2020 at 3:44 am said:

    I’m not going to deny our grand museum piece, Paul Lawson’s right to fantasize a little about those heady old WW2 days in which he was not personally placed in harms way. He is said to have given Gorgon’s man Clive Walker? the good oil on clandestine meetings between Alf the complicit dupe and special agent Jestyn. Apparently they met in the gardens of RNSH nurses quarters, though if such were for the passing of information or other doings, Paul did not stipulate but he did comment on exchanges of shipping information at another other harbourside location. I very much doubt that Paul, the Adelaide animal stuffer was a regular visitor to Sydney and I’m quite certain that he didn’t get to see any gardens like those depicted in the BS/TS fanciful assimily; reason being there weren’t any, but for the open expanse at front of the hospital. Built in 1909 (date at entrance) it was not so long in the tooth as Cramer would have us believe in his just posted ‘Come into the Garden’ dead thread makeover segment. PS. Had a trainee nurse, and her man in uniform been seeking a shady nook wherein to engage in hanky panky, the grounds of a major centre like RNSH, especially during war time, would not be an ideal venue for such discreet doings.

  212. john sanders on June 24, 2020 at 3:34 am said:

    I’m not normally one for stroking another’s ego or any other pliable fancy. In the case of Gordon Cramer’s rather top notch photographic kit and other sundry self imaging paraphernalia however, I make the exception. From the well detailed self serving description it is obvious that he has everything a dedicated detertmined crook might require to facilitate a well constructed fake ‘light lens and letter’ con if he be so inclined. Of course we could well imagine that such versatile equipment would be similarly well suited to inocuous enhancing of perhaps less than perfect images of field photographic surveys. Ones that a chap like ‘Flash G’ might find satisfying in his free time such as wetland bird watching from a well sighted ‘blind’ at Sunshine Coast’s Alexandria Bay free beach, and not far from our meglomaniac flim flammer’s home studio.

  213. john sanders on June 25, 2020 at 9:00 am said:

    I never can miss a chance to expose Gordon Cramer’s self serving lies whenever possible which means every single subject he has ever raised; such patholigical compusion makes it impossible for such a false pretender to avoid such devious habits. To-day’s deliberatate ‘mistake’ relates to his new ‘BOOM’ technology for lifting layer upon layer of script from 1948 press photos to reveal the hidden micro writing beneath. On this occasion we are treated to the tiny letters V1DR which according to the old fibber, represents a real V 1 DR rocket once stored at the Salesbury WRE Adelaide. For starters I doubt there was never a DR designate of the German V1, but no matter because there never was even a standard model of the mark at WRE. In the spirit of fair play there were two completely dissimilar V2’s without engines or war heads shipped through Adelaide, one of which was briefly displayed at WRE around 1947. Both being deactivated museum pieces and they can now be found at the Australian War Memorial Canberra. PS. Open BS/TS links at your peril. js

  214. john sanders on June 26, 2020 at 8:15 am said:

    What are the odds Peter Bowes..? Well pretty good as a hypothetical question and it’s not as if the whole Robert Victor Hemblys-Scales scenerio has not been done to death on all four dedicated Tamam Shud blog sites in recent times, all at urging of that dark horse from the golden west Petedavo who is not so well known here (tC). I have no personal views for or agin, but permit me indulgence to remind you, in particular, of our fiery past discussions pertaining to Big Bob Wake and his own fondness for taking on ‘wet work’ contracts when required. So your own current pursuits are quite within the framework of what I proposed originally and of course by your getting out and buying Bob’s bio ‘No medals or Ribbons’ bio you showed that my advice was accepted. I hope to be able to read it myself one fine day when all this has finally been done and dusted on my terms of course.

    Something you might not be aware of is that Robert ‘the brat’ Scales’, as the lads of 12th Army staff effectionately called him to his chubby face, left highschool in ’39 at age 18, went up to Cambridge for a three year quicky honours degree in some smartish subject, then in ’44 went directly into Military Intelligence and from recruit to a brevit Major on Monty’s planning staff for the big ‘D Day Operation commencing in June. By the time he got to Australia with Sillitoe and Co. he was on the rise in Brit. Int. circles coming from a lowly GCHQ post war operative to tea boy to the spooks over at the MI5/6 building. So at the tender age of 26 and some months brat was given the top secret job at most reluctant authorization of Ben the locomotive driver Chiffley to set in train a catch-me-fuck-me excercise of the Lapstone conference which the whole intelligence community knew about well in advance. It was an entertaining side show to be sure and some months later he got to sign his three page full and comprehensive after action report, compiled by an unidetified staffer in FF no doubt.

    As for Bob Scales relationship with dead Dr. Sprog and his dutch widow whose name escapes me; guess you got it all from the Geni page managed by noneother than Petedavo or the recent similarly worded post from Byron Devison which if correct suggests some form of game changing move is on the cards; especially now that Cramer has jumped in for his chance to star. For a start any ties would have to be with the dead doctor’s missus and Bob Scales fiancee, Ida Lupino? (whatever) and I’d suspect only some spurious cock relationship if any. Certainly not pukka British blood ties which I’m sure you were suggesting as part of a death before disaster honour killing perhaps. You also hinted of the Sprogs as being of a somewhat younger age group than our subject which seems not the case, as from memory the good doctor was at least fifty odd when he passed on in the thirties. Anyhow I wish you success in what you’re on about and hope things fall into place with young Robert Victor Hamblys ‘hiphen’ Scales sooner rather than later.

  215. john sanders on June 26, 2020 at 9:09 am said:

    So nice of you to reply Gordon but sorry no good news for you and although I didn’t dare open your newspaper link, I didn’t have to. Whether papers called your V1RD’s rockets, doodle bugs or buz bombs, it makes no difference because none came to Australia leastwise in March 1947. A single vastly different V2 rocket made it’s way via Fremantle and Port Adelside to Melbourne in March of that year and another was temporarily housed at Salisbury WRE in October whilst being broken down for it’s multi load road transport to Canberra shortly thereafter.

    Thanks for your concern my health. Let me assure that I’m holding together rather well for 72, still physically active and mentally allert, also well capable of holding my own against the likes of tinkers, tailors, beggermen and thieves like thee at 73?

  216. peteb on June 26, 2020 at 11:27 am said:

    I appreciate our precision, Johnno, and sincerely hope your health isn’t as bad as is elsewhere suspected to be.

  217. john sanders on June 26, 2020 at 12:22 pm said:

    There you go again Gordon. I’ve no idea why you completely twist the truth to push an argument based on fabricated evidence which shows up your marginal limitations when trying to put one over on better minds. I’m not saying that an Fi-103 is not part of the AWM collection, most military museums have one and yes a doodle bug did make it’s way out to the colonies. That was in October 1945 (not ’46 as you wrongly claim) aboard the SS Sussex from memory and intended as a museum display, it being then restored at Laverton Victoria for onward delivery to Canberra. This operation has naught to do with your claimed V1’s being housed at Salisbury S.A. in 1947 which you attempted to introduce as part of some espionage related deal involving your tired old Code Page/Verse 70//TS slip uplift bullshit. Not forgetting insuations of complicity concerning Paul Lawson’s spin on poor Bill Moulds, Jess Harkness, and Alf Boxall, with the help of PeteDavo and sadly Byron Deveson and Clive Turner. I’ll say it oncce and then it us done, your efforts to move these operations back to Adelaide where it all began falls short just like the buzz bombs that were, landed in the channel or overshot London and Coventry to bad homework, just like those that are part and parcel to your deception ploys.

  218. john sanders on June 26, 2020 at 1:05 pm said:

    What are the odds? says Peteb…”Updated just slightly” or more likely amended quite conveniently to compensate for wrongly construed relationships of Sprods and Scales to the sixth degree, as proposed in order to keep everyone honest at this most critical juncture in SM investigations..

  219. john sanders on June 27, 2020 at 3:50 am said:

    At Gordons somewhat suspicious recommendation I’ve been poking about here and there for Australian WRE connections for his 3RAR rocket (V1RD) variant. It turns out that it was most likely a 3 stage 1950s improvement on the original Von Braun 2 stage atmospheric bumper RTV-G-4 pressure rocket, based of course on his German V2 from ’44. The development facility in Alabama where Snowy Braun and his ex Nazi ‘Paper Clip’ team worked was called Redstone Arsenal Research (RAR)) and most of their rockets were launched from the White Sands test range NM between 1948 and 1950. Although the Brits and Ruskies also utilised the old V2 technology for their own rocket R & D pprograms, none were not up and going until the fifties. Somerton man’s premature demise in 1948 does not seem to have viable connections with any rocket development or testing coming out of Salisbury WRE period. Another fizzer compliments of BS/TS , their latest V1 RD never getting off the launch pad (ramp), just like all their bum leads, as usual and as expected. This non SM related topic (diversion) is now burnt out as far as I’m concerned and will not be part of any further discussion

  220. john sanders on June 27, 2020 at 9:29 am said:

    Peteb: I really can’t find too much to gripe about on your latest Robert Hemblys-Scales search out and destroy mission with my former fifth columnist nazi assassin team member as his probable target. The cove found dead on Somerton Beach was most likely involved in the death of a well known Australian who had been condemned to die for inciting commission of war crimes against the German trench soldiers in 1915. My main SM candidate Carl Von Czarnecki was on 6th November,1948 additionally condemed as being of ‘renegade’ status by the Australian authorities through Bill Simpson chief of National Security and Arthur Calwell Immigration minister, which by terms of it’s literal meaning rendered his life doubly forfeit. How could the poor fellow win with two guns pointed at his head?..

    Now it stands to reason that the two Bobs, Wake and Scales, through their own sources, knew about the wanted man’s pre war history in Australia, about his wife and son living in Adelaide, but most imperitive to their own separate missions, that the best chance would come using ten year old Peter Boy and long suffering wife Christabel as bait. Carl had somehow evaded detection since 1945 and eventually managed to re-enter Australia with false papers as a displaced Russian or Balt named Karl Czarnecki possibly in ’47. By maintaining a low profile in bush localities known to him he may have lived rough but was used to it, until his recurring bad health eventually forced his hand…Which Bob won out with the baited pasty is anyone’s guess though the big feller must be favourite you’d reckon.

    Anyhow Peteb, if you dice all the bitches along with Alf none of whom could possibly be connected to Carl or his own victim Harry in 1931 and carry on as if you are just getting started on the investigation on your pat, you’ll be on track to find out whether Bob the brat from Blighty or his namesake from Downunder gets the maze master badge. While you’re at it try to shake off your advisers without any hard feelings if at all possible because rest assured, I’ve been through all their so called good oil and it ain’t Castrol believe me. Apart from that my own modest experience as a trained observer of such folks gives me to believe that they won’t be around should you ‘wipeout’.

  221. Peteb on June 27, 2020 at 11:52 am said:

    Bravo mate, good shit that.

  222. john sanders on June 29, 2020 at 4:14 am said:

    The following is yet another fine example of where Peteb’s trusted informants in the ongoing Sprod/Delprat/Teppima/Hembly-Scales/Tamam Shud involvement gave him deliberate misleading information end on end. This was the case of the long dead doctor Milo Sprod supposedly having had his surgery right beside John Freeman’s pharmacy at the relevant time in the brief. As if it mattered, there were in those days at least twenty commercial premises along Jetty road between 24A (Freeman) and 25 which until the doctor’s death in 1934, was a surgery/resindence set on the corner of the Durham/Moseley St. confluence. So that puts paud to the suggestion of the ROK being found mere feet from where Freeman’s car was parked or that Lica Delprat must somehow have been the control. This just points to one of several instances where Peteb’s Tomsbytwo site put trust in those he considered knowledgeable on Robert Victor Hemblys-Scales, such as his perported blood relationship to the Sprod or Delprat family in 1948. To figure it’s derivation we need go no further than to note how well connected three of the informants are to another site, which has by pure chance itself, just covered the ’49 Hemblys-Scales, Teppima wedding in Canberra including a clip of ex PM Billy Hughes with the bride serving no purpose; compliments of Gordon Cramer and BS/TS for the fawning minions and anonymous devotees.

  223. john sanders on June 29, 2020 at 6:25 am said:

    I noticed not quickly enough, that the wedding photo is up on Tomsbytwo but the original source is likely the same. On Gordon’s latest Hemblys-Scales thread, his photos which also serve no purpose but ego stroking, are of the 1948 Lapstone conference along with Bob H-S’s acting minister’s (Chifley PM) authorization for the make believe security ‘excercise’. One that might normally have been a fair dinkum Bob Wake CIS ‘show’, he being uninvited, so therein may have led to the intense ongoing rivalry between the competing spook forces for SM’s scalp.

  224. Peteb on June 29, 2020 at 8:34 am said:

    Johnno, how many times? There were TWO investigations taking place at the same time, ok?

  225. Byron Deveson on June 29, 2020 at 10:03 am said:

    JS, Robert Victor Hemblys Scales wife’s aunt was married to Dr Milmo Sprod.

    Tania Virginia Hemblys-Scales (nee Teppema)
    Birthdate: circa 1925
    Birthplace: Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Daughter of Petrus Ephrem Teppema and Elizabeth Francisca Carmen Delprat

    Milmo Sprod’s wife was “Lica” Elizabeth Theodora Delprat
    BIRTH 1882 Jorga, Spain
    DEATH 18 JUN 1963 South Australia
    Father Guillaume Daniel Delprat(1856–1937)
    Mother Henrietta Marie Wilhelmine Sophia Jas(1858–1937)
    Marriage 11 Apr 1916 Victoria to Dr. Milo Weeks Sprod (1882–1934)

    In other words Elizabeth Francisca Carmen Delprat (Hembly Scales’ mother in law) was a sister to Milmo Sprod’s wife.

  226. john sanders on June 29, 2020 at 12:02 pm said:

    Peteb & Byron: I’ve no doubts about your dual investigation Pete, in fact I have tauted that case scenario all along so you get no arguments from me on that score. It’s the reason why Harry Strangway was most likely taken off the case rather expeditiously if you get my drift, being mindful of my belief that he knew SM’s wife Christabel…..and Byron I’ve made an depth study of the Delprat/Teppima families and know as much about them within reason as I need eg., like two of the Delprat sisters marrying diplomats (Portugal/ Netherland) and one to a knight of the realm in Doug Mawson. As for your Elizabeth (Lica) bn. 1882, she and Milo Weeks Sprod bn. 1882 had four kids including twins Milo & John bn. 1917 who were identical twins. Ex Aust. PM William Hughes of the ’49 wedding pic, was a friend of old Guillaume (Bill) the BHP revolutionary mine boss who went on to start Newcastle Steel, Port Pirie smelting operation and Iron Knob extractions. All these good folks were pure as the driven slush so could not hardly have been connected to clandestine activities in any way shape or form as you amigos suggest. As for Bob the brat Hemblys-Scales who knows, after all he was understudy to Roger Hollis and had studied at Cambridge, allbeit long after the five and turned out a to be a dud, let alone an assassin…If you need to know the truth about anthing related to espionage, don’t hesitate to ask Gordon Cramer because he’s with AfIO. js

  227. john sanders on June 29, 2020 at 1:50 pm said:

    Byron: A little confusion of which you are in no way at fault; there being two sisters named Elizabeth, one who we know as Lica and the other Eli(s)abeth Francisca Carmen, who of course was Tania’s mum, but of course the sisterly relationship leaves the niece aunt factor intact. In recent times it has been most often claimed that Robert was the blood tie-in to Lica and as we can clearly see in any case there would not even be a tenuous in-law relativity until his marrage to Tania in February, ’49 long after SM’s sad demise. Are you ok with that?…

  228. john sanders on June 29, 2020 at 10:58 pm said:

    Byron: “the Tamam Shud book was found a few feet away from where Robert Hemblys Scales niece lived. What are the odds?”…is what you wanted Peteb to believe and ultimately gave him cinfidence to erronously announce that “Milmo” Sprod’s wife Lica was the controller for Jessica and Alf. The poor woman was 67 years old and only came into play when Petedavo found that she had interest in poisons and a niece who was about to pay a visit with her boyfriend Bob Scales whom she likely new nothing about…Things can get out of hand this way and by playing up Nifty Nev, Bill Waterhouse and an alleged communist plant heading up the Aussie AG’s department in Lionel Murphy (my boss) doesn’t help old man.

  229. john sanders on June 30, 2020 at 2:23 am said:

    Poor GC has plainly lost it, now insinuating that his latest alter ego ‘an omnibus’ has aquired reverse hallucination syndrome based on his repudiation of the BS/TS widely accepted code page and verse 70 micro writing phenominon. Perhaps G. Cramer is himself suffering a bout of perverse elucidation which can be terminal if left untreated…I’ve been reliably informed that 3RAR can help.

  230. john sanders on June 30, 2020 at 4:50 am said:

    Detective Errol Canney by name and nature was also a very dominating and astute police officer who worked the SM case following Detective Harry Strangway’s likely forced transfer on grounds of a possible conflict of interest after just a few days. Errol worked with Hec Gollan and Harry’s usual partner Scan (Jock) Sutherland and during the first week they were kept busy taking people (mostly ghouls) to the mortuary in attempt to make a positive body identification. Two men likely to have come forward at the time were Alfred Davis, Carl Von Czarnecki’s brother-in-law who had not seen tge declared renegade (traitor) in ten years. The other Keith Mangnoson, just released from a mental asylum seemed positive about his Carl ‘Thompsen’, an immigrant rouseabout from Renmark and the body being identical in spite of the long interval. What Keith may not have told the cops was that this Carl and a German cohort had also had some questionable dealings with his own brother-in-law in early 1937. It’s more than likely that Canney may well have been told by Strangway about the need for discretion concerning a security matter that could create problems at a federal level if made public. One can well imagine that the nutter Mangnoson was warned off in no uncertain terms by Canney in his inimitable overbearing manner but it seems the warning fell on deaf ears. When Keith started mouthing off about his positive ID with publication of an upcoming inquest six months later, tragedy befell his family, later claimed by his wife Roma to be in consequence of her hubby’s loose tongue. In later years Commissioner Canney, in his role as head of the international police peace keeping mission in Cyprus, had tyrants like Greek Archbishop Makarios and the ruthless Turkomen warlords on their knees before him; so his role in the SM investigation can not be treated lightly Peteb.

  231. john sanders on July 2, 2020 at 5:51 am said:

    Peteb: I’m not so troubled about you getting MI5 Bob’s name wrong or timing of the Freeman? ROK handover eight months after the fact, as opposed to your six, a lapse based on the approximate date of finding given press release of 22/7/49. What really gets to me is that nobody will accept that SM’s Staminas as with the similarly styled Marcos in the suitcase, did not have a standard fob as the belt flap overlap would not give access . Instead it had a small concealed change pouch that was sewn into both side pockets. The Stamina brand was only made by L.S.Isaacs in NSW, so if SM’s duds had been knock offs from Victoria as seems possible then all bets are off. I note in Burt Cleland’s typed documents for the 1958 inquest plus some hand written jottings from much later, he only refers to a money pocket and does not lay claim to finding the Tamam Shud slip which is at odds with everthing stated by Feltus. Now that these little things are out of the way and we’re on track again, perhaps the inquiry can move forwards and with luck turn up something of more substance than that to which we are used.

  232. Peteb on July 2, 2020 at 8:12 am said:

    Thank you, Johnno, duly noted.

  233. john sanders on July 3, 2020 at 5:36 am said:

    Peteb: Duly noted, duly ignored, which is your perogative and so not for me to take exception. My concern is that you still manage to get the Hemblys-Scales surname wrong, more obvious when you post it as as a headline piece so you’ll perhaps take more care in future. PS. That’s coming from a bloke who just learnt that erroneous has an extra ‘e’.

  234. Peteb on July 3, 2020 at 11:09 am said:

    Yeah yeah yeah …. Doing it now.

  235. john sanders on July 3, 2020 at 1:56 pm said:

    Peteb: Just checked the correction; well done that man, and of course the new yarn appears to be loosely based on Gordon’s Delprat/Teppima/Sprod/Soviet/ MI5 links with his new alter ego supporting cast over at the Big Footy blog which seems to have impressed some punters, though still no closer to SM’s identity which can wait of course. Wonder what became of ‘redacted’ with his Samsung tapatalk gizmo and the little bimbo ‘Kinbru’ who sounds like Willow Cramer. Of course we don’t hear much from that great site these days and must as the question, why?

  236. peteb on July 4, 2020 at 4:19 am said:

    Well, a man did pick up a bit here and there, but overall I’m rating the failed entrapment yarn as pretty tight, which is a shame in a way as I was getting somewhere with an old boy in Footscray who had vague tales about a rubaiyat quoting villain in the 40’s.

  237. john sanders on July 4, 2020 at 8:34 am said:

    In acknowledging Cramer’s latest thread on External Affairs boss John Burton’s suspected far leftish leanings, I’m somewhat surprised that he did not pick up on his bogus top secret covering letter on Hamblys-Scales alleged after action report on the Lasptone security excercise which is undated and unsigned. The letter is dated 8/1/48 which although conceivably a typo, still does not account for Burton saying “I will probably be away when Hollis arrives……..” Some say that Hollis may have made a lightning visit in mid ’49 to check on Courtney-Young which has never been confirmed besides his own Soviet desk assistant Bob H-S was then in Cairo and in either case the letter still sucks.

  238. john sanders on July 5, 2020 at 4:15 am said:

    Tomsbytwo’s failed entrapment yarn could well have been tighter if Peteb had substituted long gone Hamblys-Scales for MI5’s new ASIO new nominee Courtney-Young who’s recent arrival in Canberra would fit the time line for that cold chill experienced in April. Lica Delprat’s cock nephew, sporting Safari suit & keppi, was by then at his new Cairo desk doing his best to lure soviet moles for Roger and trying to put the failed ‘orstruckinfailure’ mission behind him.

  239. Peteb on July 5, 2020 at 9:57 am said:

    Long gone bullshit. He was chasing NKVD goons let loose by the Lapstone Conference ..

  240. john sanders on July 5, 2020 at 1:46 pm said:

    Peteb: Only goons in Adelaide ’48 must have been ex nazis; NKVD had shut down by August ’46. Where to next?…

  241. Peteb on July 5, 2020 at 11:02 pm said:

    MGB then … whatever. Goons.

  242. Peteb on July 6, 2020 at 7:10 am said:

    … and a large vote of thanksalot for the Courtney Young number. Bob didn’t have a long stay for a ‘permanent MI5 resident, did he?

  243. john sanders on July 7, 2020 at 5:19 am said:

    As Aust. Minister for External Affairs and UN fondling father, it’s a wonder H. Evatt got an invite to the 1949 Teppema wedding, having just tossed their Regal Dutch sovereignty under ‘an omnibus’ by giving Sukarno free title to four hundred years of colonial rule in the Indies. Betcha he didn’t get to kiss Robert H-S or his virgin? bride, speaking of which It has now been confirmed that a home grown CIS hit squad and not Bob’s MI5 lads, took down the alleged Nazi renegade at Somerton Beach on 31/11/48. This recent filing courtesy of AfIO’s affiliate BS/TS G. Cramer (Stn. Chief).

  244. Charlie Chuckles on July 7, 2020 at 9:23 am said:

    I’d be looking at Tania’s letters before and after their decamp … and who would ever believe a foreign intelligence agency could contrive a plan complicated enough to implicate a relative of a highly placed allied intelligence agency officer in the hope of bringing him down?
    Bit of a chuckle, ain’t it.

  245. john sanders on July 7, 2020 at 11:26 pm said:

    Gold star certificate for Chuckler of the week Peter Bowes of ….. ….. I’d imagine Tania’s letters are by now in care, custody and control of one Peter Davidson aka Petedavo who seems to be the authorized Delprat and Teppema agent for those seeking genealogical data. Strange that Milo & Lica are not part of the haul so there is still hope of securing some decent dirt on their issue if there is any to dig up. I’d go out on a limb to say the Sprog family’s SM involvement would be about on par with Gordon’s clandestine secret agent Major Wlliam Jestyn Moulds OBE, ZERO!

  246. Peteb on July 8, 2020 at 6:58 am said:

    NAA’s got them. .. all of them, boxes of undigitised material. Dear Robert, why did we have to leave Australia so soon? And why didn’t auntie Lica come down to say goodbye?
    And who were those two heavyset gentleman who seemed to have an interest in your welfare?

  247. john sanders on July 8, 2020 at 8:13 am said:

    Madeleine: Dear Cousin, a big hello to the Sprods from Bobby and me, trust all is well etc., and happy 69th birthday wishes to Aunt Lica from niece Tania and Bobby in Shepeards Hotel Cairo. Hope that the new battery wheel chair enables Aunt to enjoy some outdoor time after being stuck in that stuffy old town city townhouse since Uncle’s passing all those years ago. Thank God she didn’t have to give up a medical practice or anything so drastic and never having owned a car in her life, she wouldn’t miss driving at all….etc..Love to all, Tania Virginia & Bob Teppema H-S

  248. peteb on July 8, 2020 at 11:47 pm said:

    Rubbish, she was playing golf and participating in road car races for most of her life. Or so I heard. You might just spot her in one of the Jessica / Prosper car rally newspaper shots.

  249. john sanders on July 10, 2020 at 4:55 am said:

    One doesn’t have to look far to find trove stories on the adventures of German born Nazi Paul Johns who, consequence of a stint in Australia from 1926 through ’37, became both hero and villain in turn; Initially as the tough gun toting dingo scalper and cameleer who guided gold seeker Lewis ‘Harold’ Lasseter on his futile trek into the empty interior, only to be then accused by some of murdering his hirer and being a thief and con artist to boot. This of course amply attested to by subsequent convictions for fraud and car stealing culminating in deportation to Nazi Germany.

    For much of his decade long sojourn in the Australian wilds, Paul Johns was in the company of another young German who traveled with him between farm labour work in South Australia, then into the dry interior regions around Alice Springs. From archival files, we know that the companion Carl Von Czarnecki spent the early years working with Johns in the Clare district before the pair headed north to try their hand at prospecting. The pair returned to work closer to the coat where Carl married a Clare nurse and sometime in 1935 the newlyweds ventured to the west looking for better job prospects leaving Johns to go it alone. Some time in 1936 the lads seem to have hooked up again for nefarious pursuits, the pair tgen moving between Port Pirie, Adelaide and the Murray districts at which point they separted when Carl fell ill.

    In all the time of being bum buddies, Carl seems to have spurned attention, leaving Johns to get all the media attention, but whether this was a deliberate ploy to remain incognito for some past indiscretion or not we’ll never know. It bares metioning that between the time of his arrival in ’27 and his voluntary departure back to Germany in ’39, our Carl seems to have gone almost unoticed by any one apart from the west around Margaret River, to the extent of becoming more ir less incognito an as such unlkely to be identified should his picture appear in the press, either dead or alive. Fortunately there is light at the end of the tunnel and some answers will no doubt be enlightening one way or another.

  250. john sanders on July 10, 2020 at 10:22 am said:

    For what it’s worth, Carl Von Czarnecki was a keen photographer and when Special Branch Police went through his left belongings in the mid forties, some years after his return to Germany, they found many images taken during his prospecting time with Paul Johns in the Centralia region circa. ’29 to ’33. In those early times small travelling cameras like the Kodak pocket and similar German Voigtlander were most susceptable to dust and moisture; the best place to store them when not in use, along with exposed film being inside thick socks. No doubt most will recall that there was a notable absence of spare socks in the so-called Keane travelling suitcase and one might be inclined to the view, as has been suggested, that any valuables secreted in socks would have been vulnerable. Too tempting a target for staff or police to overlook when going through the contents therein at the old Adelaide Station cloakroom…From my research into Von Czarnecki’s descendants, all including son Peter, grandson Terry and two great grandsons Ryan & Daniel chose careers related to graphic arts of which they are quite well known. In fact Carl’s father-in-law Arthur Davis was a commercial photographer in the old dart before he became a Baptist Pastor in Broken Hill pre WW1.

  251. john sanders on July 11, 2020 at 9:14 am said:

    Congratulations to Gordon Cramer on chalking up a half million visitors to his BS site and includes my own modest contribution of an estimated 30 hits per diem for four years or more. Then of course there’s those many anonymous posters from the Sunshine Coast who’d be good for a whack, with largest contributor by far being being Gordon’s own aliases making up most of the rest; Apart from those few plucky old ‘red’ baiters like BD and new kid on the block PeteDavo, both doing their level best to bump the number to 500,000 mostly misguided dupes.

  252. john sanders on July 12, 2020 at 5:13 am said:

    Peteb: All ado about nothing is my take on Paul Lawson’s work diary and not worth contemplating in the context of any evidentiary value. As for validity on the alleged claims of a post war ‘shipping news’ conspiracy involving Boxall and nurse Jestyn, we must wonder where they met to exchange notes; surely not Paul’s suggested venue of RNSH nurses garden, a non existant figment of the Cramer imagination, as was the whole ‘Lawson/Turner interview concept from the outset. You of all people must surely be aware it was all likely to have been fabricated and a front for Gordon’s self serving ‘reds in the bed’ rhetoric. Fallback if things went wrong resting square on the shoulders of ever dependable and prime BS/TS patsy Clive Turner/Walker? whoever he might be.

  253. You’re right of course, dusty, I’m way out of my depth here. Maybe I should just grab the Woodie and a couple of wahines, hit the wild surf and score a couple of wicked barrels.
    Then, when I’m sucking back white rum with the local bruddas, maybe I’ll put some outasight stories up on a surfing blog.
    Hangin’ ten, bro.
    Out there.

  254. john sanders on July 14, 2020 at 5:55 am said:

    In 1934 mining licences were taken out in the Tennant Creek district by Paul Johns and his rabble-rousing partners Beecher Noel Webb of Adelaide and claimed WW1 Lieutenant George F. Lee (doutbtful). Webb who was a solicitor was a known to be a persistent writer to newspapers regarding alleged ill treatment of inland blacks subject to goverment native protection laws. One of their known associates was a mysterious ‘journalist from Sweden’ a T. Anderson (never identified) who wrote damning reports in syndicated Swedish/German newspapers re attrocious living conditions and exploitatiin of natives that he witnessed during his seven years in the Australian outback. Just the type of stuff that one might expect from a planted nazi insurrectionist promoting insurrection in the lead up to WW2. Paul Johns hun mate Carl Von Czarnecki had left the territory by then, having travelled down to the coast probably via old Tennant’s original overland route from Port Lincoln which is described in detail by Anderson. There can’t really be much doubt that my Carl and the mysteryreporter Anderson were one and the same (ala Gordon and Mat B. Hall to name just one aka). Moving forward 15 long years there wouldn’t be too many that might recall a mate from the thirties in a 1948 newspaper pic of a dead face, besides, in this case potential identifiers Beecher Webb died in ’41 and Paul Johns was by then up to his neck in fake 15th century manuscripts at his antiquerian book shop in England.

  255. john sanders on July 14, 2020 at 11:58 pm said:

    From about mid May, 1935 the Australian government became most concerned about the level of critisism being leveled on it and Catholic missions re alleged native abuse, complainants being Messrs. Webb & Anderson. Fearing interational ramifications based on the falicy, authorities endeavoured to trace the so-called Swedish Journalist by all means but, not even a description could be had and infact no one in the places described in his news stories had ever encountered him. Noel Webb’s whole family were known to be Aboriginal rights activists in Adelaide and environs including his dad who was a lawyer and highly ranked member of the Sth. Australian judiciary. Carl Von Czarnecki had supplied an Adelaide address of 29 Seafield Ave. Kingsford when he departed Alice Springs, though he moved about constantly as if he might be evading those interested in his whereabouts, his last known S.A. abode being a farm at Penong, west of Ceduna. By this time Webb had put up his law office shingle in Alice Springs and his German mate Paul Johns who stayed on after Harry Lasseter died, was thought to be guiding Gold expeditions into the Petermann ranges in search of Lasseters fabled lost reef; that is until he was gaoled for fraud and eventually getting into the stolen car business .

  256. john sanders on July 15, 2020 at 3:37 am said:

    Detective Sgt. Leane’s billion to one odds on offer to the Adelaide press regarding the sought after ‘Collins’ ROK was lapped up by them and their SM case followers knowing full well that it’s location was a mere formality. Of course had Adelaide’s grandstand bookies been consulted they would likely have called ‘London to a brick on’ that the book would be in police hands by Friday evening, in time to make the morning papers (22/7/49) which was never in doubt. After pulling off the Ron Francis stunt without hint of suspicion and being able to cover all bets the wiley Detective dropped a loaded full house with the nurses telephone number, and the accompanying adhoc letter code for the readers to nut out. No wonder that his prized informant’s details were not revealed during his lifetime for In all probabilty there were none to disclose.

  257. пожалуйста on July 15, 2020 at 8:47 am said:

    The hostelries of Yekaterinburg continue to resound with mirth at developments over on the leading factually based blog.

    One thing exercising me is the likelihood of Spymaster Boxall adding the number 70 below Jess’s now famous dedication some 30 odd years after the fact and then taking the trouble to adorn those two digits with ‘micro-writing’.

    In the words of Smiley: “Now why would he do a thing like that”?

    And, perhaps more significantly, if he added the 70 and its micro-written adornment, who’s to say he didn’t add all the micro-writing that keeps popping up in letters, grapes and fezes?

    Perhaps Alf and Gordon just share a hobby?

    Or is Gordon going to suggest that the spider at the heart of the web is Prof. Karla Abbott, the most cunning fox in Moscow Centre? Maybe HE put the micro-writing in the Boxall Rubaiyat?

    We await the next installment.

  258. john sanders on July 15, 2020 at 11:59 pm said:

    19th century American bard James Russell Lowell coined the phrase ‘Onward and Upward’ in his epic poem ‘Fabled Critics’. It seems that this was then adopted by resident rhymer and fabler Clive Turner-Walker in his congratulatory offering to master yarn spinning Somerton Man critic, Cristopher Gordon Cramer for his own epic BS/TS 500,000 (5 year) milestone…Onwards and Upwards as well to Clive for the game changing Major William Jestyn Moulds fable without which input, verse 70 would be just another number, right Clive?

  259. john sanders on July 16, 2020 at 3:40 am said:

    Pete: You seem to be confusing “trolls” with we genuine ‘without fear or favour’ guardians of truth who have no qualms when it comes to their sacred duty of exposing crooks and deceivers like the Cramers of this world who prey on dupes and fawning crawlers. Such doings should merit your appreciation rather than condemnation Pete Bowes; unless of course you’d prefer the dog that didn’t bark or perhaps ‘Your Sprod that didn’t cark’…. Nick Pelling, no pal of mine, is also no body’s fool and can obviously pick up the vibes where others simply make excuses for downright dishonesty.

  260. Yeah, Dome’s right onto it, isn’t he, but we haven’t seen a contribution from him for how long, six months? And when you look up at his site header and see the Somerton Man Taman Shud by-line you’d think he’d have something to offer. But, in reality and for all his self professed researching capabilities he’s just another goose who didn’t read Strapp’s deposition.
    And neither did you.

  261. john sanders on July 16, 2020 at 8:23 am said:

    Peteb: In so much as this Great Pretender has always tried to ignor and remain resiliant to slurs on my character and intellect, I’ll beg forgiveness in knowing my tit for tat baiting (trollery?) has at times been somewhat excessive. My own profound predjudice towards Cramer is however, a little more personal, based on his recent accusations of my being a notorious supply chanel for untraceable international IT receptors saught after by purveyors of child porn and such on the so called dark web. If that therefore offends your newfound spirtit of forgiveness towards the man who made false and lurid accusations against your own sense of moral decency, then you’re a better man than I am Gunga Din and I salute you in your selfless act of turning the other cheek.

  262. Peteb: thanks for the vote of no confidence. Though I have indeed been quiet of late, I continue to research the Somerton Man etc, though my preference for silence when I have nothing to say is clearly a bit of a culture shock for some.

    Rest assured that when I do have something to say, it will be worth reading.

  263. Yeah, good man .. can’t wait.

  264. john sanders on July 16, 2020 at 11:36 am said:

    So, what was the quid pro quo re the non aggression pact between our two most vehement opponents of yesterday; we are surely able to offer possible grounds in consequence of Pb’s subsequent trollish abuse of poor Boris N., who can’t say he wasn’t so warned. Im thinking along the lines of GC’s “I swear not to divulge the northern rivers location of the Keane suitcase” for PB’s “I swear not to divulge details on your most comprehensive record of dishonesty”. Any better guesses?

  265. john sanders on July 16, 2020 at 12:13 pm said:

    Nick: Indeed, you have my concurrence on remaining tight lipped on your recent thoughts but, might I be so bold as to suggest your proposed, long awaited follow up thread on Keith Waldemar Mangnoson’s identification of ‘Carl Thompsen’, as being appropriate in the current circumstances.

  266. john sanders on July 16, 2020 at 1:02 pm said:

    Borris N: As far as suicides go, if indeed that’s what we might be contemplating. The Peter Borgmann case fits the bill for Somerton Man almost perfectly; as if the man had some prior knowledge of how he might succeed in affecting complete anonymity and thereby thwarting police investigations which were sure to follow. From the manner in which he arrived in the holiday town unknown to the locals, his inconspicuous hotel booking with an assumed identity, checking of bus routes to the beach then taking a taxi out the following day under pretext of a twighlight swim etc., etc. then by keeping to himself whilst preparing his destiny with desired dignity. Poor fellow was dieing of course but still managed to take sustinance in an effort to cover his own plight, as indeed did our own candidate before finis. Of course the 1948 Australian story would have been common knowledge by then and Peter, as a man of the world must have been familiar with the case from his travels and occupation.

  267. пожалуйста on July 16, 2020 at 3:49 pm said:

    Sanders, Pete: yes, Bergman feels like he’s a copycat almost. But I’m guessing SM’s autopsy would have revealed an underlying condition. We know he had the enlarged spleen, which suggests he was very ill some time before his death. But the coroner’s report makes no mention of tumours or the like. And I assume that those would have been evident to a coroner in 1948.

    What’s striking about Bergman is the enduring nature of the mystery. In 2009 he manages to arrive in Ireland, move through the country, stay in hotels, dispose of his belongings and kill himself… all without identifying himself through a trail of data. You’d hardly think it possible. But he did. It would have been easier in 1948.

    But let’s face it: Bergman’s true identity IS known. Someone out there knows exactly who he is. But that someone hasn’t claimed him. Maybe part of a deal, granting someone’s last wish. Maybe because of some past offence. This suggests that it’s thoroughly possible that SM was Australian, was known to people, etc.

    The Neil Dovestone case is also worth looking at. “Neil” was eventually identified. He’d arrived by air from Pakistan a few days before he was found. He was eventually traced via images taken at border control. But it took a year or so. He had (somewhat estranged) family in the UK. They never made the connection between the sketches (no photographs of the body were made public) and their sibling. Neil (real name: David) died by self-administered poison (strychnine… very unpleasant) in a seemingly random location. But of course that location (from which he got the temporary name “Dovestone”) sent investigators (cops as well as part-time nutters like us lot) down a whole lot of dead ends: the 1960s Moors Murders (Brady/Hindley); a 1949 air crash (G-AHCY) with a few child-age survivors. It will probably never be known why he chose the location (he had no apparent connection to it). He arrived at a local pub and asked for directions “to the Mountain”. He got only half way up it before lying down in the twilight, very well dressed, in a position very similar to that of SM and passing away right there, on the track.

    Chances are that it was the nearest “mountain” he could think of when he set out from London. So perhaps SM did the same thing, as did Peter Bergman: they all went to the end of the line, as far as they could before running out of road?

    There’s my “theory”. FWIW.

  268. milongal on July 17, 2020 at 12:21 am said:

    Surely the problem with any idea of suicide is all the other stuff we keep talking about….
    If this was a plain and simple suicide, then all the police coverups, multiple ROKs, planting the TS – and almost anything else are superfluous.

    Surely it’s one of the greatest difficulties in the entire case – for any story we can come up with, no matter how well it fits some of the evidence, we invariably come up against some other item of evidence that is difficult to explain away. Many of the storylines people come up with need us to simultaneously believe that the participants were on the one hand pulling strings and manipulating the facts, but on the other hand genuinely confounded by related detail.
    One of the big problems with the overarching conspiracy theories is that they’re not needed. If there were no TS slip, then the whole episode would likely have been dismissed as a mundane death. So what is the purpose of the slip if it’s planted post-mortem? It brings attention and mystery to the case – which is surely undesireable? Surely blind Freddie would see that planting something so obscure and “well-concealed” is going to beg more questions than it resolves? Surely if you want to hide such a thing as a mundane suicide you would plant something a little more obvious?
    Also Leane does not strike me as wily…..

    My main conflict is I don’t entirely trust the contents of the pockets – yet I can’t see the purpose of planting anything there (surely empty pockets are easily dismissed as “the poor sod’s been robbed….possibly by an opportunist after death”.

    The other thing we should remember is that there’s a chronology to how our narrative goes that tends to over-emphasise non-existant coincidences. E.g. It initially seems odd that Jack Lyons first appears as witnessing the night before, and later finds the body…..but if you think about it, the facts appeared perfectly explicably (but their appearance was in the opposite order). Lyons discovers the body and rings it in, and later at interview mentions “….I saw some dude lying in the same location last night” – and merely shifting the angle we view the facts, something that seems so coincidental is dismissed as fairly logical – Lyons was one of few witnesses the police found because they were already engaging with him because he found the body (yet so much weight is given (admittedly in the past possibly by me, among others) to the “coincidence” that Lyons both witnessed the man on the beach AND discovered the body. And all of that leads to pointing out that just because police only ever found the 2 (3 if you count the lovers as 2) witnesses doesn’t mean that hundreds of other people didn’t walk past the man on the beach that night – and simply didn’t recall or didn’t come forward. Especially if police weren’t actively looking for witnesses early on. How many people do you pass if you ever walk along a beach in nice weather? How likely would you be to remember a specific person being in a specific location (unless the situation was somehow unusual – which is why he was memorable to the young couple; and for Lyons it was only because he found a body in the same spot less than 12 hours later).

    I still think there’s a lot in the Pruzinski story that could prove to be linked – even if it doesn’t ultimately lead to car theft rackets.

    I’m not sure what this rant was even about…..but it’s been a while since I had one.

  269. john sanders on July 17, 2020 at 2:54 am said:

    Nick: Possible access to the A1066 unread Carl Von Czarnecki file has now been affirmed for 8th August following my earlier request, noting that the relevant online classification has been changed to ‘open with exception’. Archives are going to advise further and have asked if there is anything specific I’d be looking for, which is rather sweet of them. Obviously a passport photo or two accompanied by thumb prints for identity varification would come in handy and I’ll convey that to the designated research officer.

  270. пожалуйста on July 17, 2020 at 11:04 am said:

    Milongal, all… yes, the TS slip is the only link between a dead man on the beach and anything resembling a conspiracy. No slip means no ROK. No ROK means no code and no micro-writing. The connection on which the complex theories around this case are built is literally paper-thin.

    Without it we have what? An unclaimed John Doe who blew into town from god knows where, carrying a suitcase full of unremarkable stuff. He hung around for a while, had dinner then went to the beach and died.

    Just like Peter Bergmann.

    But the slip appears to be real. And as Pete has demonstrated, there are some uncomfortable feeling gaps and lags in the timeline. He suggests filling these with a conspiracy in which the SM is lured to the location as a patsy and pawn-sacrifice in a bigger, darker subterfuge at the sharp end of the Cold War.

    That’s possible, but very involved and very risky. There’s also no known precedent (which admittedly doesn’t have to mean much).

    May I propose, then, at least the outline and beginnings of an alternative scenario that brings these two radically different theories together in a way that has form: in this hypothesis, SM was the unknown man, the drifter who ended up on the beach. His body is duly removed to cold storage. Time passes – no, is allowed to pass – no one claims him.

    He is now a blank page. And the conspirators move in, in much the same way Pete sets out.

    The precedent here is Operation Mincemeat, billed as the greatest deception Operation since the Trojan horse. There, the John Doe cast adrift to wash up on continental shores with fake D-Day Landing plans was a Welsh homeless drifter whom no one would miss. Kept on ice for just such an occasion.

  271. john sanders on July 17, 2020 at 11:24 am said:

    Once in a while I go back to see if anything gives with Fred Pruzinski that we may have missed initially but nothing ever jumps out. I think that the best chance was with there having been two lads from the Hill with similar details (not exactl) who had different family backrounds. I recall that Fred who took Coffee’s bike from BH and rode it to Somerton Beach on 28th November? was charged as a 17 year old juvenile, yet my check of Richard Frederick’s death certificate would have him as an adult of 19 at the time of the offending. I also noted that his family origins were German and not Polish as one might have invisaged and that the drowning victim’s nephew Don is still big with SA Vintage car club as was Prosper Thomson and as is Peter Von Czarnecki, Carl’s lad.

  272. Anyone suggesting a mincemeat patsy would surely run the risk of being accused of dyslexia. 😉

  273. john sanders on July 17, 2020 at 12:58 pm said:

    Redacted might like to get with the program and refrain from making his false accusory remarks about a very well respected Adelaide family that for all intents and purposes have not had as much trouble with the law as he libalously suggests. Old man John who volunteered his service in the trenches of France with the oft lauded 50th Btn. was fined 2/6 pence for not voting upon his uncelebrated return from that hell hole, then a bob or two later for purchasing beer at an unlicensed premises which hardly makes him a criminal. Likewise his son Cyril John had been sought for deserting his missus as is attested in a number of Aussie trove articles between 1926 and 1940 in a divorce action, but still volunteered for the navy and later the army in WW2. As for his aspertions to effect that a certain Mangnoson worked for Commonwealth Investigation Service I’d like to see the evidence; truth being that an operative named MAGNUSSEN was named in ASIO files as a paid surveilance operative under Big Bob Wake’s direction in 1950 or thereabouts. This clown, obviously under orders from another who has an agenda totally at odds with establishing Somerton Man’s identity or reasons for his demise should be publicly admonished by all who seek the truth.

  274. john sanders on July 17, 2020 at 2:01 pm said:

    My heart goes out to all the Welsh homeless drifters who no one misses. I must say that I’d prefer dining on one of their toasted cheese, mustard and HP sauce rare whatsits than some NKVD tricked up Glenelg (sic) Patsy any old time.

  275. Tammy Shud on July 17, 2020 at 8:44 pm said:

    ‘A Pasty for a Patsy – The True Story of the Unknown Man’

  276. пожалуйста on July 17, 2020 at 9:15 pm said:

    Sanders, all… picking up your point on Bergmann’s potential knowledge of the SM case (a few posts up upthread now). I’ve had a read through all 37 pages of the Bergmann discussion over at German sleuthing/conspiracy site allmystery.de (yes, I can. And that’s as much as I intend to offer Pete by way of identification).

    What’s really interesting to note is that SM is not well known in German-speaking territories, except – clearly, from that discussion – among some hardcore nuts. Contributors over there seem to think the chances of Bergmann deliberately “referencing” SM in his MO are minimal. Also interestingly, they seem somewhat reluctant to buy into spy theories. Perhaps understandable after the End of History in 1991 (or whenever it was) and in the fly blown ends of Sligo. But why they then theorise Mr. B’s purple carrier bags might have been full of narcotics is a mystery to me.

  277. john sanders on July 18, 2020 at 6:11 am said:

    Big Tooty Team Captain Redacted’s latest shadow play of trying pin things SM related on Det. Canney’s ID witness Keith Mangoson, is really beyond the pale. For the record it was most likely something conjured up this dull witted captain’s command centre at another place, thus able to easily disassociate itself from any issues arising from possible false flag blowouts. For a start the badly faked 1948 Lapstone surveillance report compiled by the acting AG for it’s youthful MI5 designate Robert Victor Hemblys-Scales, does not include the name of any agent participatant named Mangnoson. Although page 5/3 of the farce does mention a CIS operative named Magnussen, this actually refers to one of Australia’s most celebrated behind the lines WW2 FELO field operatives Jack Magnussen. This chap’s real life mission immpossible involved by-passing Korean/Jap guards and allerting POWs in several Thai work camps, of Allied plans for their imminent salvation. He is so famously well thought if in the anals of audacious wartime exploits and to Clandestine field operatives internationally that to confuse Jack with our poor sick Keith Mangnoson shows either a knowing canivance, or else operational inepitude, both being likely norms for agent provocateur ‘SM-A305YN Crapatalk’ and his devious facilitators. PS: Jack (nmn) Magnussen 1918-2008 Adelaide, wrote modestly about his wartime exploits in Burma and Thailand Railway 1996. js

  278. john sanders on July 18, 2020 at 3:07 pm said:

    I for one am a tad perplexed that our loyal BS/TS SM correspondent from ‘down your way’ (Adelaide) Clive Turner, didn’t seem to take the initiative and record his three all revealing in depth interviews with key figure Paul Lawson; nor by logical extension for similat attemots with other known local informed sources such as Detective Len Brown, eye winesses Gordon and Olive Strapps, or death scene first attender Neil Day who seemed quite keen to oblige recent film opening night attendees with his recollections of events in 1948. Heaven forbid that a person of our Clive’s SM standing could somehow be left off the invitation list at such an all important gala event. More than likely his absence on the night came from a higher authority wherein social gatherings of such nature are deemed to be in contravention of AfIO Standing Orders on confidential liasons by agents.

  279. john sanders on July 19, 2020 at 1:08 am said:

    Whilst trolling (sic) through an old Keith Mangnoson thread it was noted from a Byron Deveson post of the same period that it was in fact C. G. Cramer, head honcho of BS/TS site who had first repirted Paul Lawson’s claims about the Russian Ballet dancer from KI, apropos an island based family having been brought by CIB to Adelaide, thereaby making a positive SM identification (twice); all this fine detail predating Clive Turner’s much more recent interviews. Sounds right, right?

    More bad news for Big Footy team captain Redacted who is by now re-emerging with a well thought out logical excuse for his Magnussen faux pas. His suggestion that our Keith could be considered a prime candidate for the 1st December, 1948 NKVD, MI5, CIA, Mossad, CIS sanctioned Fedisimov? assassination, seems to be countered by a fairly solid alibi. Namely in that a man named Keith Mangnoson had been secure sceduled patient of Fairfield mental facility at the time.

    Folks will recall that Keith Mangnoson had come forward to volunteer information to police upon his release from hospital in early 1949 and he was subsequently able to identify the SM body as that of a man known to him as a farm worker Carl Thompsen, who hailed from a cold climate (foreign?) and whom he’d met whilst a rouseabout in the Renmark district pre war. Some months later whilst in custody, related information was given to Det. Lance Bond prior to KM’s re addmission to Fairfield assylum in connection with another matter.

  280. john sanders on July 19, 2020 at 5:12 am said:

    In yet another of Clive’s claimed interviews with Paul Lawson, the latter tells of Jestyn’s reaction upon seeing the bust of the beach body and going into a near faint as if recognition had taken her by surprise. Of course some years before the old fellow had outlined precisely the same case scenario on 60 minutes so we are treated to near identical verbal and video accounts. Strangly it had also been Paul that told the inquest in ’49 that the bust was not such a great likeness of the original body due to it’s general deterioration in cold storage over time and that the press photos would be considered more reliable for identification purposes. If so, who might Jess have thought she knew, or could it have been that she was merely suffering a bout of morning sickness, precursor to the 1950 birth of her daughter Katherine…NB: Cramer or his clone had Paul add an inch to the dead man’s given height in order to get a better case for his lanky Soviet spy Fedisomov.

  281. milongal on July 20, 2020 at 12:38 am said:

    @JS: Maybe I’m playing Devil’s advocate (or maybe not), but what if J’s reaction was because she DIDN’T recognise him? What if she expected it to be someone, but was shocked that it was someone else? Especially if she knew WHY the man was dead, perhaps she was freaked out that somebody got the wrong guy…..

  282. john sanders on July 20, 2020 at 3:26 am said:

    It has been observed that one of those recently signed up to a strictly speaking non binding troll naming alliance, backed by a quid pro quo clause, showed his total disregard for compliance almost at the outset; a move nothing out of the ordinary for such types, a trait akin to honour amongst thieves. So when the senior partner had the afront to send one of his expendables into the former enemy camp under guise of friendship, sole purpose being to make ofv with a pair of SM’s most readily identifiable striped trousers, it came as no surpise ….’Two crooks both intent on spoiling the troth’ is a sure harbringer of renewed hostilities one might speculate.

  283. john sanders on July 20, 2020 at 5:08 am said:

    Part of the ‘Lasseter Golden Reef legend’ involves the namesake’s habit of keeping his favourite books close at hand when abroad; including his Holy Bible, Book of Psalms and other tomes of a more scientific nature. Some of these were found and kept in police storage for years after his strange death in the Australian interior, then passed on to his wife who had bye & bye taken up with CAGE member Green. A particular book that was not recovered, one that expedition leader Blakeley may have saught but couldn’t locate when he went through Harry’s belongings at the Billbila staging camp in mid ’30, was his pocket travel copy of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam from which he recited when not singing Mormon hymns on his treks. How does this fit with our Somerton Man truth quest; well it is a certainty that the last white man to see Harry Lasseter alive and well, camel jockey Paul Johns, was subsequently convicted of multile car theft and deported. Some may recall this gent from recent posts; So happens he and his German rouseabout buddy Carl Von Csarnecki travelled frequently together over a long (interrupted) time span, which included turf known well to the Mangnoson men. In fact in 1937 Paul Johns bought a motorbike from Keith Mangnoson’s brother-in-law Lawrence Symens who later divorced Keith’s sister Violet Isobel and became an army bandsman in WW2. My laboured point being the very real possibility that our crooked Kraut lifted Harry’s ROK when the latter was either dead or not looking, passed it on to his pal Carl who kept it as a talking piece and years later tossed the blighter into the back of a utility truck (Cleland notes) at Glenelg. Makes as much sense as anything else we’ve heard of late, like missing matches or Strapps Stripes surely?

  284. john sanders on July 20, 2020 at 7:46 am said:

    @ milongal aka Devils A: Some folks look tgemes & variations out of habit which is OK. What the hell; Let’s find someone who can give us Kate Thomson’ s birth details which might point to whose guess better fits the known facts, ie., A trained nurse’s likely reaction to seeing the plaster bust of an as yet unidentified deceased personmor, “Crikies looks just like Quentin Thomson, think I’m gonna Faint”.

  285. milongal on July 20, 2020 at 10:13 pm said:

    I meant more along the lines of she had assumed it was a certain someone because of the photo – and was totally taken by surprise it was the wrong person (especially if she knew how he came to be there).

    I don’t want to assume too much about who and how, but suppose she was involved with some shady stuff with someone we’ll call A (could be someone we already know, likeher husband, Prosper, or could be someone we haven’t come across yet – no assumptions). She knows A has had a falling out with some person B (or at least has some reason to literally want them dead). Now suppose A has never met B in person (but J has, or at least is familiar with what they look like), and has gone off to knock them off armed only with a vague description and/or photo. When she hears about a body on the beach, and sees a post-mortem photo that in her mind looks enough like Person B. She is called by the police, and readies herself to look nonchalant when the bust of person B is shown her…..instead there is this total stranger – Person A has obviously got some unrelated person in a case of mistaken identity – and she is spooked.

    You could apply various plot twists: Perhaps she did know SM, but it still wasn’t whose bust she was expecting to see….etc

    I guess my point is that we assume she was freaked out by the bust because while it was easy enough to not care over the photo it brought home some reality to her that someone she knew was dead. Granted, everyone reacts differently to death, and perhaps she went there thinking she could hide her emotions….but I sort of find it a bit odd that her reaction was apparently quite extreme – when she had presumably seen the photo before hand and knew who she was meant to identify (or deny knowledge of). Why did the bust take her by such surprise? Was it just that the bust looked so much more real than the touched-up photo? Or was it because for whatever reason the person the bust resembled was not the person she thought she was going to identify?
    [ Naturally we also need to remember that everything about her reaction is based on it being recounted a long time later – and possibly exaggerated, embellished etc (if you’ve been watching the Ch7 mini-series on Peter Falconio you’ve likely questioned how many of the “witnesses” who are “certain” they saw Lees or Falconio at some time around the 14th July have either convinced themselves something they saw was important (and genuinely believe it); how many are just making stuff up for attention; and how many REALLY saw EXACTLY what they claim?) Similarly, the specifics of her reaction to the bust seem to come from the 1970s – some time after the fact (I think there was mention she had reacted badly to it early on, but the specifics about looking down and not wanting to look back etc I think came from Lawson in a MUCH later interview (possibly for the Littlemore Doco) – That allows a lot of time to have retold friends the story where it gradually evolves to something you categorically believe, even though it’s not really how it happened….

  286. milongal on July 20, 2020 at 10:17 pm said:

    Double checked the timeline….
    So in particular at the time she may well have thought it was Boxall….and she may have been totally freaked out that it definitely wasn’t (or another tangent – that he looked so different to what she remembered).

  287. john sanders on July 21, 2020 at 4:00 am said:

    Big Footy’s team Capt. Redacted has just posted a generally nebulous piece on government inter-departmental personell transfers necessitating different NAA file references or something. For our benefit he has put up a header page entitled MR. MAGNUSSON which reveals that it contains nothing but a file cover. Such a self explanitory notation should be all fine and dandy, but something seems amiss with the posted example as it clearly shows page 22 of 23. Simple math and logic would argue that it should be displaying 1 of 1, which surprise surprise is exactly what appears when cross checked directly back through NAA’s otherwise identical page….I’m sure there’s a simple explanation for this apparent anomally.

  288. john sanders on July 21, 2020 at 10:36 am said:

    Milongal: I’ll stick to my ‘keep things simple stupid’ scenario if you don’t mind. Ie. That a trained nurse, whether a hospital sister or bed pan aid becomes so familiar with seeing death close up that a glimpse of old Nick himself would not raise concern enough to have a fainting spell. If what Paul claims is true, then I’ll stick by my contention that something along the lines of morning sickness is more likely to have been the cause. I’ll stand corrected if we find that Kate arrived after say mid February 1950.

  289. john sanders on July 22, 2020 at 3:16 am said:

    It may yet come to pass, and I for one would not be at all surprised, that the Verse 70 ROK business with it’s cast of thousands, has absolutely nothing to do with the Somerton Man case, it being at best a sideshow brought about by crime scene locality issues such as our ROK star Sister? Thomson’s presumed residency nearby. As a possible ID witness she had come forward anonymously with her ROK/Boxall story to police on 26th July 1949 (my take), which was discounted upon her failure to reconcile any features of the SM beach body with her nominee Alf Boxall, found to be alive and well next day. The case had by then ran out of steam with no new leads to go on and was thereaby shelved. NB: Police said that they found her phone number (not so imho) in a book surrendered also anonymously which ‘when shown to her’ seemed to be similar (which it wasn’t) to one she’d had given to an aquaintance (Boxall) prior to his posting overseas years before.

    The case was inevitably shelved though re surfaced briefly adecade later when a NZ con man with knowledge gained from old papers, used it in attempt to obtain money and some custodial advantage. This, along with a mere proceedural inquest resumption in 1958 which had nothing new to offer, certainly not Jessie’s input which had come too late for inclusion (if deemed warranted) in the 1949 inquest, which both coroner and police knew would not suffice to warrant any mention at all this time around. We can blame well intentioned people like Mike Munro of Inside Story ’77, Gerry Feltus of ‘Unknown Man’ authorship and Professor Derrek Abbott of Adelaide University for bringing us to this point in time which it is fair to say, may not be all that far further advanced than when Detective Sgt. Strangway handed the case over a much junior officer A/Det Sgt Leane on 8th December, 1948….Struth was it that long ago? must seem like yesterday Paul eh mate?

  290. john sanders on July 22, 2020 at 5:11 am said:

    ‘I simply think, it is making something of nothing’, insists SM Smithsonian Barry Traish in his not altogether glowing review of the Peter Bowes histericly set ‘Bookmaker of Rabaul’ novel, dated 12 July and posted by the author who recently left in a childish huff, presumably intent on a course of self destruction or worse.

    I’m interested as to what line of investigation the novice writer’s first novel might pursue for it’s theme; I’m now seeking recommendation or otherwise from any SM deviates that might have read it, or perhaps know who has. Boris Pozhaluysta may have been lucky recipient of a signed free copy back in late 2016 from memory.

  291. Better to have a temporary huff than permanent shit on the liver, veteran, and you’re way off course with BH’s judgement .. as usual. One day you might make a contribution that’s worth the reading.
    In the meantime, I commiserate with the Voynich mob, who must be sick of the sight of all your bullshit.

  292. john sanders on July 22, 2020 at 2:04 pm said:

    Peteb: Others would have seen my play on Barry’s judgment as being the joke that it was intended to be, slightly overdone perhaps knowing your incapacity to take humour not of your own making. As for my humble contributions on discussion points re subjects other than SM related, folks usually take my offerings as they please, for I make no claims for expertise thereof or otherwise. Whats more, being an old so called veteran who took all his shots front on, I’m not one to take my bat and go home, which always seems to have been your trade and calling; but then again being a chip off the old block, one couldn’t expect anything more. You’ve always been a loser in my estimation old man, people can see you coming a mile off and take you to the cleaners as they often do…Any new thrillers in the pipeline.

  293. пожалуйста on July 22, 2020 at 2:51 pm said:

    Gentlemen, please.

    For the record, I am not and never have been in the possession of aforementioned tome, fabulous as I’m sure it is. Were I to be (and the postal service here in Yekaterinburg is perhaps to blame for the fact that I’m not?), then I’d be sure to praise the work of a fellow scribe. For we toil for little other reward.

    A bit like the very endeavour we are engaged upon here. In our different ways.

    Anyway, our brief hiatus gave me occasion to review Prof Abbott’s AMA. One does rather wonder about the MacMahon thing. Was that ever (un)satisfactorily resolved?

    Apart from that enticing little tidbit, I’m rather taken with the MINCEMEAT idea. What if there was a conspiracy, but the only thing that wasn’t in it was the SM.

    Quite a satisfying inversion? Thought it might shake a few things loose. As the Dude once said “my thinking about this case has become very uptight”.

    And apparently I owed Pete a theory of my own. I now await my golden shower.

  294. Wait, you’re talking about a Somerton Man conspiracy so incredibly deep that it doesn’t even include the Somerton Man?

    That does sound like 90% of the Web coverage, it has to be said. So perhaps my thinking too has become a bit too uptight. :-/

  295. john sanders on July 22, 2020 at 11:03 pm said:

    Brien McMahon 1903-1952, Gd Democrat from Connecticut, promulgated the US Nuclear Arms act. for limiting use (good luck) in1946 and The Peace Corps. May have given immpressionable Jessie Thomson the incentive to name her first born after him in 1947, the year of introduction.

  296. milongal on July 23, 2020 at 2:33 am said:

    @JS (feels like this is old ground): Was J ever shown the Rubaiyat?
    If she was, I agree the Boxall stuff is a most peculiar thing (being a totally different version in a totally different format – Bit like someone getting confused between a 3.5″ floppy and a USB stick….).
    But I’m not sure that she was. I’m thinking someit more like:
    Plods: “We found your phone number in the back of a book, know anything about it?”
    J: “Huh, what book?”
    Plods: “Oh, it was errr…the Rubaiyat…err….of erm….”
    J: “Oh, the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam – yes I know the book well, in fact….blah blah….gave a copy to Boxall”

    Not sure there would have been any mention of format, translator, publisher or edition at that time (and the police worked fast enough to get onto Boxall the following day, so even if she found out it was a different edition (eg based on subsequent description/picture in the papers) the fuzz had already followed through that line of enquiry.

    Re conspiracies missing the main character…..While I chuckle at NP’s response, I think there’s obvious examples of that. A lot of what is discussed actually happened; some of the speculation may even have happened; but none of the connections to SM exist – so while the story is reasonably (or somewhat) factual, it all happened totally separate/unrelated to the body found on Somerton Beach – that is, it’s not the conspiracy itself that is necessarily wrong, it’s the leap to link SM into it.

  297. john sanders on July 23, 2020 at 8:42 am said:

    The manner in which a no nonsense, competent detective like Canney would have approached a witness of unknown quantity like Jess would have involved coming to the point straight off, gaining the initiative thereby and with a view to being in control of the interview, especially she having advantage of being on her own turf. That must have included producing the book or a close a copy and testing her reaction both visibly and verbally. He would have only needed to ask clarifying questions to obtain what he needed to know and let it rest there for the time being at least. We know it went down like this because the Newspapers confirmed as much that same day, along with the bust viewing. That seems hunky dory, but it does not explain how she made no attempt to distinguish between the W & T pocket version and the ‘Jestyn 70’ hardcover unless Alf Boxall also had a Courage & Friendship as some suggest. NB: My belief that Jess made the initial contact with police and not the long held alternative view, ie. phone trace etc., is not important in this synopsis.

  298. john sanders on July 23, 2020 at 12:23 pm said:

    Not to wonder that Paul Lawson showed a degree of consternation when on camera and a confronting interview with self assured old hand Stuart Littlemore’s somewhat unanticipated interrogatory style. Leading questions such as whether anyone who viewed his work had recognised it as being a likeness to some one known to them might well have placed him in a professional bind hence his defiant stance. It was Lawson’s initial foray into forensic reproduction of that kind and he had suggested at the time in 1949, that the the working conditions confronting him, particularly that of his subject were far from ideal. The deceased sitter SM was not in such great shape for projecting a good likeness of it’s former self as should have been expected and this has been mentioned frequently over the years. Paul points out the obvious truth that by viewing his work, people were less inclined to make comparisions, than if they viewed the original body or indeed photographs taken on the slab. I thought, in light of such difficulties, his presentation before the Insider cameras in 1977 was all that may have been expected. I feel that some latter day scrutineers are seeing something in the man’s first national television appearance that is perfectly reasonable all up, and jaundiced square eyes are quite out of order therefore.

  299. milongal on July 23, 2020 at 11:40 pm said:

    There’ s parts of the interview (including in transcripts that didn’t make it to production – I think that particular question is asked at least twice or thrice) where Lawson does seem to get evasive “you’re on tender ground”.
    Naturally he may not have known what he was allowed to talk about and what he wasn’t – and (as many people tend to) made assumptions about the sensitivity of stuff he knew (stuff that could easily be quite innocuous). TBH, my reading of that particular interaction with Littlemore was more that Lawson didn’t want to be the source of that information – remember most of the major players were still alive then, you don’t really want to be publicly naming someone you thought may have known more – even if that is just confirming what people already thought. (As I think you’re saying) His caginess isn’t some cover-up – it’s an attempt not to get involved in the story (beyond his involvement with creating the bust). It’s not for him to speculate who might or might not have known the deceased – and he finds it hard to dismiss Littlemore’s attempts to get him to imply something.

  300. пожалуйста on July 24, 2020 at 9:18 am said:

    Evasive, yes. Cagey, yes. Anyone ‘taking the fifth’ looks like that at first sight. But it’s a legitimate response. It’s a live investigation at that point, so it might just point to Lawson’s uncertainty about what he can say without prejudging an enquiry. After all, he’s not a cop. But he’s smart enough to spot a leading question from his interrogator.

    That could be tender enough ground for him.

  301. john sanders on July 24, 2020 at 11:50 am said:

    It was a live investigation (still is) on the occasions when Paul implored folks to consider that his bust was not well suited to making an identification being based on the 3D replication. Especially so when compared with the admittedly much better likeness portrayed in the flat image original Duham photograph provided to the press for circulation. I have no problems with milongal’s alternate explanation for Paul’s retiscence before the cameras during the Littlmore interview. So perhaps if we might agree in principle to combine the two theories we’ll likely be a good deal close to the mark; should that satisfy the punters not withstanding.

  302. john sanders on July 24, 2020 at 1:00 pm said:

    Not desirous of being in any way critial of a man’s pride in his work, the SM bust to my layman’s critical analysis, more resembles those marble busts reminiscent of cherished Roman emporers which we’re all familiar with; baring of course the one with a saddle nose (Heaven forbid) who was also carelessly dropped on his head as a babe, than the dead man found on Somerton Beach. Why the powers that be didn’t get an artist to splash a bit of colour on Paul’s creation to give it a human face with a bit of character and charm one can only wonder, the effect might just then have resembled something more akin to real life, thus being not so inclined to give it’s non admirers fainting spells as was experienced by Sister Thomson.

  303. john sanders on July 25, 2020 at 12:13 am said:

    Whilst @milongal and I do not always agree on many aspects of this case, his recent comment on Richard Frederick Arthur Pruszinski’s short life is fortunately not one of those, my belief being as milongal does that there must surely have been more information on the Pruszinski angle that we had somehow overlooked. First and foremost, as I have recently proposed, the young man from Broken Hill that drowned in ’53, was in my opinion, most likely not to have been identical with his near namesake the young bike thief who rode to Adelaide with an older man’s extra kit two or three days before both it and it’s apparent intended recipient were found on Somerton beach SA.

    For starters, and sorry for the repetition, the thief who later dumped his stolen bike and was caught by police in an also stolen car at Nooralunga? some distance along the coast on 29th November ’48, was a 17 year old lout named Frederick William Pruszinski born in 1931, as opposed to well regarded BH denizen, Richard Frederick Arthur Pruszinski, born 1929 was a fine young man on the threshold of a successful life holding down permanant skilled employment with Broken Hill’s biggest company BHP. Surely based on just those couple of inconsistancies, we must agree that the only commonality evident is in their surname which seems to have been almost akin to Smith & Jones in BH circa. 1948.

    There can’t really be much doubt that the teenagager stuffed up the drop off instructions and/or failed to make connection with the intended recipient, possibly by mistaking something as simple as not knowing one day from another. In the bag was a selection of clothing including a gent’s three piece suit, overcoat and a rifle (stock) and woollen socks, the one item of apparel missing from the case left an the Adelaide station ah ah ah refreshm..er (Brown) cloak room according to informed police sources. Common sense tells us that the two events culminating in SM’s demise at the same location is too much of a coincidence to consider any other alternatives and whilst it appears most unlikely that we are ever going to help clear poor Richard Pruszinski from involvement, we should at the very least give the man a pass based on what we perceive to be the true facts.

    It might be noted that a man of a similar age and physical description, who was also a known fugitive and former accomplice to a convicted auto thief, had been a multi linual itinerant farm worker all throughout Sth. Australia before WW2. His criminal cohort was known to carry motor vehicle alteration tools in his belonging, was holder of a motor cycle licence from Port Pirie and was described as being a dangerous gun nut. Although the authorities had him out of the country in late 1948, they had no firm evidence of it and his immediate family were at that time living in Adelaide. It might also be worth considering that his wife was known to have spent time as a child in Broken Hill, after returning with her preacher father and family from Canada and Great Britain; it being likely that her widowed mother maintained ties there long after. Her name was of course Cristabel Davis and her missing German born legal husband Henry Wilhelm E. Carl Von Czarnecki.

  304. john sanders on July 25, 2020 at 3:11 am said:

    Two feckless mocking birds await their master’s call;
    One called Peter, the other named Paul.
    Gordon their master, with his lies and pomp and gall;
    So its pay to play Peter, you’re good to stay Paul.

  305. john sanders on July 27, 2020 at 3:44 am said:

    What really should make more sense to Peteb is, that his Lica Delprat was the nonpracising widow of Dr. Milo Sprod who for some years until 1934, shared a consulting surgery at 25 Jetty Rd. Glenelg. It was not located next door or even close to the Freeman pharmacy at 24a which was actually next door to a market on one side and a rough pub on t’other, not at all suitable for secure street parking. MI5 office boy Hamblys-Scales was certainly not Lica’s nephew, despite Bowes ceaseless contrary claims, and so long as he keeps telling fibs, I’ll do my utmost to make sure he gets to eat them. Peteb’s latest crack at screenwriting, ‘end of the tether’ for many a failed short story scribe, has a romantisised Tamam Shud fantasy as it’s morbid theme as …., critiqued by no nonsense Clive Walker? as being “…a rather melodramitic thesis….”.

  306. Dunno what your problem is, dusty, everything looks kosher to me.

  307. john sanders on July 27, 2020 at 11:56 am said:

    A little teaser for the Adelaide ‘Brill’ small gauge rail enthusists like Gerry’s mate Tiny for instance. From my understanding, be it far from any degree of certainty, part time ticket officer Townsend worked the double star booth, commencing his shift at 6.00am and sold tickets for both the Henley Beach terminal line and the north line to very similar sounding Hamley Bridge which was also a terminal and major change station for wider gauge destinations further afield such as Clare. Whilst the frequent shorter Henley beach services commenced outward runs from around 6.30 am., the latter left Adelaide on it’s first run of two daily excursions around 6.15a.m. I’m wondering whether perhaps our man may have inadvertently been sold the wrong ticket and did not realise the young student’s blunder until he attempted to board the train for Hamley Bridge, his intended destination. By then it may have been too late to change tickets, resulting in SM having to check his baggage and delay until the afternoon service. This could have led to his decision to bide his time with a relaxing Beach layover rather than wait hours at the station with nothing to do. It could explain the unused ticket found in his brown herring bone Staminas, but not his shortage of money when found. I guess it’s still not too late for a competent Adelaide based sleuth like Clive, to ask young Neil Day the strapper about having seen anybody loitering around X marks the spot early next morning.

  308. Peter Bowes on July 27, 2020 at 1:27 pm said:

    John Sanders: No sweat bro, black lives matter, say what my man, we gotta stick to the creed right?

  309. milongal on July 28, 2020 at 12:44 am said:

    @JS: Google it (and limit results to this site)…..I vaguely remember discussing Henley Beach/Hamley Bridge stuff on here some time ago…..
    I think at the time there was some interest in a Mangnoson or Thomson connection to Alma (and we might have een looked into connections beyond Gawler/Hamley Bridge and back toward the Riverland (in particular Morgan).

    The question there, then, is whether the ticketing was split into metro and regional, or whether that sort of a confusion is likely to happen….

  310. john sanders on July 28, 2020 at 3:26 am said:

    John Ruffles, in his investigation notes for ‘Inside Story’, mentioned that Jack Lyons spoke of a witness at the inquest suggesting that the man on the beach was likely a native of a middle European country like Hungary Czechoslovakia or Poland? To extrapolate that, if we go through the list of people who saw SM’s features, we really have only two likely contenders apart from police, they being John Cleland who is automatically excluded by his ‘Britisher’ comment; leaving us with our pathologist Dwyer. An obvious choice in any case due to him being the expert conducting the autopsy and who was likely familiar with with Euro/Slav features from WW2 field experience. In his testimony he said something about SM’s looks being consistent with that of an ‘educated’ man….Ruffles notes also suggest thatt that it was the pathologist who found the Tamam Shud slip in April ’49 though he doesn’t elaborate…Perhaps Peteb might ask his pal from Bondi if that be the case.

  311. john sanders on July 28, 2020 at 5:27 am said:

    Peteb: Don’t get so excited by the frequency of my visits, it’s not as if I’m there in person, merely my auto site activity alert system telling my pick up that someone is making extended contact eg. Getting a line on your latest pseudo histerical fiction.

  312. milongal on July 28, 2020 at 10:23 pm said:

    Czarnecki is certainly interesting (I’ll have to revisit much of what you’ve dug there – because I skimmed over a lot of it)….his wife appears on electoral rolls in both WA and SA through the 1930s, however with him and his swag of names it’s difficult to work out exactly which details are his. As far as I can tell his “real” name is Henry, but he prefers Carl (it seems quite common that people from Europe from earlier times favour one of their secondary names over their given names). Every ad he places lists him as Carl (or Christabel as Mrs Carl), yet the granting and revocation of his naturalisation certificate have him “Henry William Emil Carl”….(his marriage announcement lists him as “H Carl von Czarnecki”)

    But I find it hard to think it could be him because he wasn’t claimed (despite the fact there’s articles about his son Peter being invited to a dance in Brighton in 1953 (suggesting they were local).
    At the same time he himself seems to drop off the radar – although Mrs C von Czarnecki is listed in several updates as collecting for Crippled Children in Glenelg around 1954….

    There seems to be a lot of information on him on Ancestry (but I’m not a member) – but I assume that’s where you’ve picked up a lot of your info…

    The Lasseter book seems not to have an online copy (as best I can tell), but trove lists it as available in at least 4 libraries (Alice Springs NT, National Library ACT, State Library Vic, State Library SA)….might be worth checking local libraries too

  313. john sanders on July 29, 2020 at 4:03 am said:

    Peteb: Not Flt. Lt. Bowes’ fault, that as a desk pilot he only got to fly his borrowed Mustang over the nip free skies of Papua a few times in late 44 to keep his flight rating, therby missing out on action and resultant ‘scab scar & bar’ awards. So in using that ‘chip off the old block’ phrasiology to describe Curley’s offspring Leigh when I should have been demonising his pansy ineffectual whelp perse , I deserve a big smack…When it comes to Marjorie and uncle ‘Gooney Bird’ Colin Bowes, I challenge you to produce evidence of alleged slurs on either or stand corrected in purpetuity as a compulsive fibber.

  314. john sanders on July 29, 2020 at 7:46 am said:

    milongal: I’ve never been a member of any of those swanky pay to play ancestral search deals either, making do with ‘trap’ alternaves which is as good as it gets for this old timer. If you go back through my earier related posts, you’ll understand why the beach body was unlikely to be claimed, at least not publicly. But don’t go letting the cat out of the bag just yet; you me and the Ruskie of C. Berg being likely the only people ever heard of a feller named Henry Wilhelm (sic) Emil Carl Von Czarnecki.

  315. john sanders on July 29, 2020 at 8:05 am said:

    Looks like probably no deal on Carl Von Czarnecki, having just seen his pic in the P. A. Scherer book courtessy of good folk at Lasseteria blog..An old man smoking a cigar with all the scars and discolouration from his old skin disease

  316. john sanders: surely you understand by now that a mere photograph of a person is no real hindrance to a proper conspiracy theory? Why, in many ways the photo’s very existence proves the existence of an international cabal covering up the real conspiracy by fabricating and disseminating such fake photos…

    Or so I read somewhere.

  317. john sanders on July 29, 2020 at 1:42 pm said:

    Nick: Don’t dispare, I jumped the gun and we’re still there, as you must be aware. This new photograph of Carl taken in 1939 for the folks back home and looking like death warmed up, surely without intent, is something to behold when you put all those dambed nuances together but I’m still stunned nonetheless.

  318. john sanders on July 29, 2020 at 2:23 pm said:

    Why oh why would NAA put an ‘exception’ caviat on a 1945 file, already done to death by Bill Simpson’s national security mob and a reluctant Immigration Dept. to declare our main man a renegade in two related open files. Doesn’t make a lick of sense. Let’s wait and see what my 660,000 hard earned Vn. Dong comes up with, though US military detention photos and fingerprints are unlikely to be part of the deal.

  319. john sanders on July 29, 2020 at 11:21 pm said:

    The chap that did the photo makeover was a true professional, a good man with graphics with a punk flare, someone like Peter Von Czarnecki no doubt. A grainy though clear mono chrome full figure portrait of an older looking man in casual attire with a number of writing instrument protruding from his breast pocket, an adhoc fob chain and a distinctive fairground photo badge hanging below the neck depicting a toddler on all fours posing for the camera. Subject is standing in front of a large dark metal ‘dungeon’ door, his head almost to the level of it’s topmost hinge and a standard unadorbed brick wall wing is set to the right. The man’s face has been treated to a pair of glasses of seventies styling as is his quasi GI belt buckle, and a large unlit Havana in his right hand, all accessories including the pens being after factory inclusions in my opinion. Carl Czarnacki presents as being almost bald with a silver fuzz which gives the viewer a good ckear view of his right inner ear, which is a pleasure to behold. NB: Later in ’44 he was said to have brown hair greying.

    The photo must have been one provided to Lutheran pastor Philipp Scherer of Tanunda, the Lasseter……author, by young Peter V Cz or his mum Christabel, a Lutheran herself in the mid nineties and it would most assuredly have served to reinforce the family’s long held secret that their father and husband had lived well beyond the age of 34 which was supposed to have been when he was last heard of in pre war Australia. Of course it would also reinforce that same position to any governmental types sniffing around, as is their wont, long after Carl had been declared a renegade on 6th November, 1948. It might be safe to assume that the photo came with one of the early intercepted letters to the family from Germany at about the time war was declared, those that told of his love for young Peter-boy, current state of health, there being residual dermatitus evident on the inner right forearm and of him being able to enjoying luxuries like cigars under th 3rd Reisch.

    At first bluff, when confronted with said photo and before I started to exprapolate the various peculiar nuances, I gave some thought to the NAA file information attesting to Australian government interest in the subject from very early days, following his departure from Perth in early 1939. Most of the indepth inquiries were handled by W.A. at behest of Canberra but also, and more particularly S.A. Special Branch which was headed up by none other than old Harry Strangway, first detective at the death scene in 1948. His office at Finsbury was used to interview an employee Mrs. Christabel Von Czarnecki regarding her foreign links and her loyalties to King and country in 1943. That telling interview is included in the NAA file and there was a follow-up which is missing. One might reasonably put forward the notion that the photo alterations may have been the work of investigators in possession of their own copy. After all the chief of Sth. Australian censorship office was also a man with connection to the SM case himself. That person being our old Coronor (B/Colonel) Thomas Cleland. I’d persobally go with the family connection in Peter V Cz., a former graphic artist with Adelaide Advertiser, and having access to old files as the more logical choice, motive being purely deception, family pride and defence of his father’s nazi past.

  320. john sanders on July 30, 2020 at 7:20 am said:

    milongal: My inadequacies are showing; having only picked up stuff on Carl’s missus from SA and WA rural ads. I know she had been at Clare/Adelaide Hospitals pre war and so considered it likely that she, as a single mother, returned to nursing after1945. I was not able to gain access to SCCH records for possible employment there, but did pick up on your note that she had charitable links to it. When her son Peter was a babe, he was in bad physical shape and it caused some concern amongst the German community in Perth; but what ever the ailment, he appears to have grown out of it, though Interesting possibilties nonetheless.

  321. john sanders on July 31, 2020 at 5:58 am said:

    Having been in touch with a S.A. church library, I was advised that they have a copy of a L&TGRs which includes detail on the life & times of Carl Von Czarnecki and photos including the one I have. They are only able to provide six scans due to copyright restrictions and while awaiting arrival, I’ll try my best to obtain the full publication elswhere. Perhaps Peteb and other respected researchers might help.

  322. john sanders on July 31, 2020 at 11:51 pm said:

    The scans now in my possession include a number of photographs of subject Carl Von Czarnecki from 1910 to 1940 plus others perportedly from rural Canada in cowboy regalia and one from S.A. in later years. Included is a part auto bio which amongst other things outlines details of his childhood as an orphan living outside Frankfurt. Later his life as a merchant seaman, his deserting at Port Pirie in 1927 and his early years working on farms in the Care district. Nothing read thus far appears to be a departure of what I already know, but I’m still short on continuity beyond the time following Carl’s hook up with Paul Johns at Clare hospital. Some inset notes refer to his sister’s death around the time he returhed to live in Clare in 1973 and my calculations seem to date the rather professional writing style to the early ’80s. While admittedly things don’t look so good for a tie in with our SM beach body, I’ll first need to study the remaining pages of the transcript before I can make judgement on it’s authenticity. There are things about the childhood photos that really do compare well with SM on the mortuary slab, and it can be seen that they are most likely the same person represented in the adult pics from the ear shapes. My major concern is how Carl could have gotten back to Australia, having been declared a renegade in perpetuity at ministerial level in 1948, there being nothing in his extensive files to suggest the p.n.g status having bern revoked; Also why arn’t there any records in his family’s papers or in S.A. newspapers or the like reporting his passing?.

  323. milongal on August 3, 2020 at 12:39 am said:

    behind the ancestry paywall there are records on the electoral role from the 1970/1980 with Henry Carl von Czarnecki (William and Emil seem to have disappeared from the name)….
    That would suggest that (if it’s him) he is once again a citizen (pretty sure he wouldn’t be on the electoral roll otherwise)….

    I was just looking through the NAA files on him…..it seems his family left to visit him in Germany in ’51 – and presumably bring him back (he seems not to have returned after the war) and the government cancelled landing permits for all of them.
    Either way, it sounds like he was alive and well in the 1950s.

    I wonder what’s in the 3rd file….

  324. john sanders on August 3, 2020 at 7:13 am said:

    milongal: Yes, I did cover the W.A. electrol roll entries a month back, giving some explanation on the name omissions; I also covered the family’s non visit to fetch Carl post 1948 and bring him home under cover of his pre war friend Otto Meier’s sponsorship. I Have reported extensively on various contents of the two open NAA files and have another on order, though I’m not hopeful that it will justify my outlay to date.

  325. john sanders on August 3, 2020 at 12:10 pm said:

    ” THAT CIGARETTE HAD NOT BEEN LIT ! “, said Jack Bain Lyons in a most emphatic, decisive and clearly spoken final analysis to his testimony before the inquest. That was his own accurate assessment based on what he saw before him when he examined the beach body, a considerable time before Constable Moss arrived at tge beach and who later provided a contrary view of events at the same hearing. So why was the policman’s late at the scene opinion given more weight in Coroner Thomas Cleland’s own evidentiary considerations?. Had the old digger’s expertise in the study of death scenes, gained from his experience as a corpsman in the trenches of France been accepted, the whole case scenario of cigarettes and matches would not have created the ongoing conundrum as it has ever since… I point of course to disussions taking place now on BS/TS between friends, which is actually quite a relief in it’s departure from usual duscussions of spys and hidden messages within the ROK cipher etc.

  326. Tamara Bunke on August 3, 2020 at 2:18 pm said:

    Gordon, Pete & co. may have stumbled upon something interesting and dismissed it out of hand. The awkward grammar (at least in Feltus) around the jockey shorts and singlet does rather suggest our man may have packed (his pockets) for an overnight stay.

    As far as I recall, there’s no such confusion in the inquest inventory, so I can see why Gordon dismisses it out of hand. If nothing else, it does make one wonder what other inaccuracies have crept in due to shoddy transcription, copy-editing, etc. over the years.

  327. Tamara Bunke: my opinion has long been that the suitcase had been packed for a short (2-3 day) stay in a shabby Adelaide hotel, by someone who had a specific job to do in town that could not be done in a single day.

    The item that bothers the hell out of me is the white tie. If we knew why he had a white tie, probably half the cold case would open up to us.

  328. Tamara Bunke on August 3, 2020 at 9:01 pm said:

    Is it clear what kind of tie it was? A necktie or a bow tie?

  329. milongal on August 3, 2020 at 10:26 pm said:

    surely less than half NP?

  330. milongal on August 3, 2020 at 10:47 pm said:

    @JS: I’m catching up with some of what you’ve speculated earlier – but I think there’s too much to explain away. While the authorities argued over de-naturalizing bim (through the mid 40s) he was not in the country, and even back then I think crossing the border when you’re being assessed like that would trigger a lot of alarm bells. I don’t think he was in the country when his naturalization was cancelled (although the cancellation along with the change of name etc does make the electoral roll record marginally more interesting – but it is also 20-30 years laster and things change….).

    I can’t find a second naturalisation attempt from him (there is a W Czarnecki that appears in a trove search around 1967, but I don’t think it’s naturalisation, I think it’s a Public Service appointment….and I think that might be the totally unrelated Witold Czarnecki) – so it would be interesting to know how someone came to be on the electoral role with that name (or could this be another relative – eg Peter’s kid ).

    I am interested to see if you dig anything further up, but I’m increasingly convinced it wasn’t him.

  331. john sanders on August 3, 2020 at 11:06 pm said:

    Who was the more credidable with the cigarette evidebce?, Moss (mostly smoked) or Lyons (unlit); Well in my opinion the latter for all reasons given over many similar posts (never commented upon), and he was an honest respected pillar of the community, president of the diamond traders assoc. and a local warden. As for the constable, he was for reasons not given, re posted following the inquest to Hindley Beach and put on general duties, a stark departure to his having been OIC of Brighton previously. He comes up in newspapers post ’48 eg., puting out grass fires, guiding stray ducks and saving a floating refrigerator in the ’53 storm during which he had to be rescued, age retiring in 1955 and passing in the sixties from memory..

  332. john sanders on August 4, 2020 at 3:21 am said:

    Tamara Bunke: Gordon, Pete & Co. likely used Feltus’ gaff to get a giggle at his expense, taking the seemed inclusion of underwear seemingly found in the dead man’s pockets, then one of the jokers adding ‘slightly soiled’ to get the last laugh. Of course none of this was likely true and in fact the phrasiology came from John Cleland’s ‘some slightly soiled’ description of unspecified garments in the Keane suitcase. There you go then comrade take your pick; and by the way, Cuba Libre & Che Geuvera ola.

  333. Tamara Bunke: definitely a normal tie, not a bow tie. I discussed one theory in 2014:
    https://ciphermysteries.com/2014/10/30/white-tie-get-killed

  334. Milongal: the lack of socks is a problem, but that’s actually such a big problem that it ceases to be a suitcase packing problem and becomes a where did the socks go problem. 🙂

  335. john sanders on August 4, 2020 at 7:58 am said:

    In ’46 our Carl the ex nazi, as Karl Czarnecki (sans Von) the Balt was registered as a persecuted person (ancestry free) and may well have taken up the offer of a single man quick resettlement in Canada is my best bet. From that he would have gotten hold of Dominion papers with possible asistance of his Canadian wife’s family; and shrewd man that he was, eventually made his way legally into Australia. I could imagine that the WA electoral rolls were set up by associates to ensure a smooth transfer back his old pre war identity on arrival. That’s my guess but there is absolutely no record of his death in Australia under Von Czarnecki, so the ruse, if so, was likely not put into effect. We’ll see what the NAA gives us to determine if there’s any point in follow up.

  336. Tamara Bunke on August 4, 2020 at 11:51 am said:

    Nick, I agree with Gordon that the tie isn’t necessarily white. The monochrome photo showing the T (?) Keane script is rendered with very high contrast that isn’t helpful in determining a shade. The Littlemore interview film (episode 1/3 on Youtube) renders it more like an off-white or very light fawn. The film does have a yellowish cast though.

    Still, I’d say it’s definitely not the pearly white of the monochrome photo.

  337. Tamara Bunke: it’s tricky, the colour is somewhere between white and off-white, which might just have been from being washed a lot (e.g. a work tie?), and the Littlemore documentary was decades later.

    But who, apart from American gangsters and French Nazi sympathisers, wore a white tie for work? :-p

  338. john sanders on August 4, 2020 at 1:07 pm said:

    Nick: Plenty of disgruntled German Nazi sympathers in those rural enclaves north of Adelaide for instance. I’m wondering if you ever got a fix on a contributor back in 2013 @ T Anderson who had some interesting things to say, or is that sort of information deemed not for general disclosure; perhaps a hint such as the city of cathederals or murder capital of Australia would suffice.

  339. milongal on August 4, 2020 at 10:46 pm said:

    @JS: Rereading an old post of yours (actually, not that old 2/06/20 in the thread above) you mention the possibility that the 1970’s von Czarnecki was a relative (e.g. possibly a child to Peter from teenage years)….did you get anywhere with that?

    I find it hard to resolve it to the original Carl not only because the names aren’t 100% the same, but because I can’t find trace of a re-naturalisation….

    I do know someone who might have Ancestry access, so next time I’m speaking to them I might see if we can find out any more about the von Czarnecki’s on there

  340. john sanders on August 5, 2020 at 3:04 pm said:

    mikongal: My understanding is that the ‘Von’ is unique to one family that settled on a large rural estate near Frankfurt, the patriarch Emil, being Carl’s grandfather who was Polish and took the title as part of his game keeping duties. So the only blood relatives these days are derived from the issue of Peter and his wife Naomi, all of whom were born in Sth Australia, unless Carl fathered children during his absence in the immediate post war years. His own father died in 1915 in WW1 and his only sibling was a younger sister, they being raised by their maternal granma so no chance for any offshoot Von Czarnecki relatives. Can’t see any help being derived from more genialogy research, suggest waiting for the other NAA file to open and to see if we can’t obtain the rest of his auto-bio.

  341. john sanders on August 5, 2020 at 11:44 pm said:

    In mid 1933 the Australian government through it’s Dept. for the Interior was very concerned about the activities of a shadowy Norwegian journalist using the byline T. Anderson who had been making derogitory comments in newspapers, local and throughout Europe on what he had observed on the treatment of N.T. Aborigines during his seven years in Australia. Investigations to track him down were very extensive but unsuccessful and nothing more was heard from him; although an accomplice, a young Adelaide lawyer cum gold miner named Barr, working out of Alice Springs/Tenant Creek unashamedly identified himself thriugh his own similar criticism in the press…Of course none of the above may mean a hill of beans with regard to Somerton Man and connections to my Carl Czarnecki as things seem to be headed, suffice to say that on his arrival in Australia in 1927, he posed as being Norwegian and his subsequent movements throughout the country mirrored those outlined by T. Anderson in his writings. Needless to say, when Carl returned to the fatherland in 1939 he secured work with its Ministry of Informatio as a reporter and translator….. PS. The lawyer Beecham Noel Barr, as a brave Infantry warrant officer was killed in action during service with 1/2nd Infantry Battalion in Greece in 1941 WW2 Lest We Forget.

  342. john sanders on August 6, 2020 at 4:12 am said:

    ….Beecher Noel Webb, (not Barr) for those interested. In the mid 30s he was listed as being co lease holder in a gold mining venture with Carl’s nazi mate Paul Johns and a George Lee at Tennant Creek N.T. Later when Johns was gaoled for cheque offences in Alice Springs, the lawyer representing the defrauded party was none other than PJ’s partner B.N. Webb. PS. Another twist for those into blasts from the past, is that Beecher and his dad Mr. Justice Noel Webb of S.A. were apparently well connected to ‘black lives matter’ anthropologist Donald Thompson the WW2 Intelligence operative, N.T. Special Recon Unit chief and suspected spy of course.

  343. john sanders on August 7, 2020 at 6:25 am said:

    Carl was confirmed to have sailed from Femantle (Perth) aboard SS Neckar bound for Antwerp enroute to Germany on 22/2/39 according to a Special Branch report on his NAA file. In Carl’s 1500 word epistle date lined Frankfurt 3/5/39 to one of his former employers Mr. Cheetham of Kumminin WA, he claims that the sea journey via Durban, Las Palmas and Dunkirk took a mere 38 days, arriving at destination on 1st April with onward rail and river transport to his village of a few more days perhaps. My enquiries for to-day’s sail times suggest closer to 50 days for the 11,500 sea mile trip alone, so 80 years back that old tub Neckar must have been shovelling on the coal. The question I’m asking, travel time inconsistencies aside; why does a retiring bumkin like Carl, five minutes after reaching his sister Dora’s house, suddenly go to press, going on about all the great things he’s experienced since his arrival in Germany eg. productive farms, autobahns and industrial superiority as well as some lower key nazi propaganda etc. This all to a fellow who according to police, had minimal contact with his former field hand, who’s work showed lack of experience and general inefficiency. Carl’s wife claims that she sent him home for treatment after he was given a year to live by a Perth skin specialist,
    now we have him at home six weeks thereafter describing in a letter to his ex boss, what a fine old time he’s been having of late with beer & skittles, cigars and jaunty fraufluffers to occupy all his free time. Something’s seems not quite right out there in which case we should not be overly hasty in closing the book on Carl just yet.

  344. john sanders on August 7, 2020 at 1:46 pm said:

    Erna Teske who saw what was coming and returned to Germany not long after Carl Von Czarnecki’s mercy dash in 1939, had been the honoury consul in Perth and was a dedicated Nazi from the mid thirties, always signing off her correspondence with ‘Heil Hitler’. When Carl’s young son Peter was sick in 1938 she took his wife Christabel and the child in and provided for them until they were able to get a birth on MV Duntroon and get back to better care in Adelaide with Mrs. Davis Snr. There can’t be any doubting that Chris had been indoctrinated by that time and when she was later interrogated as to her loyalties to both husband and country by Harry Strangway’s Special Branch 2IC Det. Trezona, she passed with flying colours. At the time (1943) she was working at Finsbury munitions plant and prior to that the kindred Salisbury facility under her maiden name Davis, most likely at the factory first aid station. Later she returned to nursing at her pre war employment with Royal Adelaide Hospital where she was at the end of hostilities in 1945. It has been reported that she went to Germany with her son in 1951 to fetch Carl home after he was declared a renegade in 1948, but that may have been supposition from what one reads into the confused back and forth diplomatic dialogue. Erna Teske and husband Paul, who had spent most of the war interned at Tatura Vic. seemed to have had no problems getting back to Perth in 1950. One might well ask the question, what measures were put in place to prevent Carl from doing likewise, and why, or did he have plans in place to thwart them. If so how did he achieve the desired outcome, when and what then became of him?….

  345. john sanders on August 8, 2020 at 6:48 am said:

    Way back in 2017, I put forward Keith Mangnoson’s brother Cyril John as a person of interest in the case and some discussion followed which did reveal some tid bits e.g. his bigamous marriage with a name change and a link back to one of the Mang. twins as well as deceptive dates and countries of birth over three service inlistment periods. Misca’s pay to play search engine, finally let it be known that a man with the necessary credentials was cremated at Springvale Vic. cemetery on 6/2/85, seemingly letting him off the hook. Only thing that worried me then was Cyril’s unlikely death place Sqam, Vic. and whilst I queried this with MM, giving her a likely Latin translation, I got no reply and haven’t had a civil word with her since then. But I never forgot; So just now whilst re hashing his good wife Grace’s family on MH, to my surpise Cyril John came up as being born in sone rotten burrough of Kent UK, an improvement on his last effort Capetown SA , but still a long hike from his birth town of Broken Hill, NSW…This should not be considered ‘well spotted’ or anything of the kind, just another bit of information which we may add to the pot.. ps: Cyril was born a C of E died as soul property of Uniting Church whilst Grace Olga nee McAlpine (1908) was similarly cremated in ’76 with Presbyterian rites.

  346. john sanders on August 9, 2020 at 5:36 am said:

    Happy 102nd birthday wishes to SM bust maker Paul Lawson, with the usual thanks to Ashley, Andrea and staff of S.A. (Adelaide) museum who are always pleased to pass on the many congratulatory sentiments; in lieu of direct contact which is prefered due to Pauls faltering senses eg. deafness and lucidity such as one might reasonably expect for a not so sprightly man of 102….Anyone wanting to get a good honest appraisal of his 1949 bust making process, as commissioned by Adelaide police, along with some not so well known side issues, I’d suggest going to the University of Adelaide related posting of 18/5/18 in which a realistic account of the mold casting process and other issues are clearly laid out. This as opposed to the travesty posted on TS/BS, that in keeping with all expectations borders on the ridiculous, including selected snipets of deaf Paul’s most recent alleged phone call to old chum Gordon, giving his own version of what transpired seventy two years ago. This of course included a centenarian’s in depth views of sideshow issues to which he had somehow become privy whilst busily engaged in his assigned work. No surprises when Paul declared full concurrence with the Gordon Cramer self serving and long held spy conspiracy drill with it’s usual bevy of prime suspects, Alf Boxall, nurse Harkness and accomplice W. Jestyn Moulds OBE.

  347. peteb on August 9, 2020 at 7:19 am said:

    ‘When you meet someone who oozes intelligence, inspiration, enthusiasm and has a gleam in their eyes as they speak with passion about their working life, it’s pretty amazing. When that person is 101 years old with no sign of waning, it is worth writing about.’

    Written last year by Che Wortley for cityofadelaide.com

    One day, maybe, people reading your posts will understand what a sorry specimen you are, Sanders.

  348. john sanders on August 9, 2020 at 8:44 am said:

    Norman Tindale was an internationally recognised Anthropologist who worked alongside Paul Lawson and their mehtor J. B. Cleland at Adelaide Museum for decades. My interest in him derives from his having spent his childhood in Japan and his grounding in the language which was exploited during his WW2 service, despite his admitted respect for Hitler and nazism (apparently).

    Why then would an expert in the field of Australian native tribal culture be invited to inspect the Somerton Man bust and probably the West Terrace mortury for the real deal in June ’49. Adelaide University offers us the rather lame suggestion that it was for him to make some form of pre DNA Anthropologic ancestry typing which might have helped police with a likely country of origin; Thus enabling them a better chance of identifing their body from amongst the many possible names provided by the public.

    I strongly doubt that he had that sort of expertise in specific race typing and for one thing the great man left no notes at all to record his findings, most out of character indeed for a man known for his manic note taking. I noted with some unusual interest that Tindale had spent the years 1929/32 engaged in field work based out of the Lutheran Hermansberg mission in N.T. That just happened to be in the same period that would be nazis Paul Johns and Carl Czarnecki worked there. So who knows? perhaps old ‘Tinny’ was there to try a more personal ID.

  349. milongal on August 9, 2020 at 11:27 pm said:

    @JS: How many Danetta’s can you find in the letter to Christabel?
    “….old England and the latter” – I’m sure I can see the letters for it in those 5 words alone….

  350. john sanders on August 10, 2020 at 6:08 am said:

    Milongal: 248 Danetta’s by my count…and while I have your attention, are you up for a new Pavel I. Fedosimov, even more positive SM comparison based on the Kangaroo Island witness description as elicited from Paul Lawson’s very latest paraphrased personal in depth outpouring to BS/TS’ Chief of Station. PS: unless this spoils the surprise value.

  351. john sanders on August 10, 2020 at 11:11 am said:

    In a rare moment of temporary distraction Gordon has apparently misidentified Constable Moss with jeweller Lyons of “that cigarette was not lit” more credible assertion (in the opinion of no body but me), It seems that our all knowing BS/TS head honcho may also have gotten his wires crossed with a bold claim that Det. R.L. Leane went across to A.S.I.O., perhaps confusing him with younger brother G.M. Leane, a Snr. Det. Inspector, who was sent off to Blighty in the early fifties on behalf of all states & the Commonwealth sans ASIO, to establish international cooperation in the newly created Interpol fiasco.

  352. john sanders on August 10, 2020 at 11:32 am said:

    Another well ducumented furphy is that Ray Whitrod joined ASIO which he most certainly did not in any shape or form; on the contrary he left Sapol to become director of Commonwealth Investigation Service, later to be installed as first Commissioner of the newly created Commonwealth Police Force which you can take as gospel…as for John Moss, he never got further than Henley Beach.

  353. john sanders on August 10, 2020 at 12:40 pm said:

    Chief Superintendent and former SA Detective Sgt. Errol Canney OBE, went over to the Commonwealth Police Force, not ASIO and in the early 1960s was appointed to the exulted post of Commanding Officer of the International Peace Keeping Force in Cyprus. So once again, for Gordon, Peteb and the die hard espionage theory collective, no joy I’m afraid.

  354. john sanders on August 10, 2020 at 11:53 pm said:

    I’ve been giving consideration to having a closer look at the first attenders and local hoops Horrie Patching & sidekick Neal Day who had no apparent need to stop and check on a man who was sleeping out on the beach; also to the likely ulterior motives of the widow Elizabeth Thompson and her career criminal accomplice Stanley Solotti who falsely claimed the body to be missing Morgan man Robert Walsh. This all having to do with an unamed stable hand and likely former Tatura internee, who may have been reported missing from Somerton racehorse stables. This homeless man would have known that he was not long for the world, as did his occasional attender, a nurse from Royal Adelaide who may have offered to put the dieing man’s mind at rest about his imminent demise and resultant concern for authorities charged with disposal of his remains.

  355. john sanders on August 11, 2020 at 3:48 am said:

    An otherwise important revelation on TBT of a newspaper interview with good Constable Moss apropos absence of matches is unfortunately deficit in legible affirmation of his verbatim wording. This is all due to the item being out of focus and publishing details likewise edited out…As for unsubstantiated claims of Det. Leane’s purjured evidence being punishable by ten years hard, perhaps our accuser might do well to consider their own dishonest childish stunt in terms of penalty. May I suggest a reasonable further period of self emoliation as being sufficient deterant from further offending.

  356. john sanders on August 11, 2020 at 5:35 am said:

    A word of caution to friend Gordon at TS/BS; not concerning untrue claims of my using various well spread IPs to deceive and commit preditory immoral acts upon minors which is to be expected when dealing with crooks. No not that, but your dreary persistence in making the most ridiculous mistakes then calling me out for suggesting that you be more careful, and having the temerity not to correct the error in question e.g. ‘Barry Traish 10/8 which is still up in it’s original text. As for your smug contrary assertion that Det. Ray Whitrod went to ASIO, you might be forgiven in having that view as there certainly are some inaccurate references to suggest same on line. Fact being Ray was still with Sapol radio patrols until the early fifties at which time he went to Sydney to take up an exective position with the NSW office of Commonwealth Investigation Service, before being promoted to Director in 1953. Thats a year before operation Cabin and the Petrov affair under charge of ASIO honcho Ron Richards (ex Wapol). My advice GC if I may be so bold is to take a leaf from your own AFIO standby, VERIFY..VERIFY..VERIFY, before falling into your own fool’s trap and being made a laughing stock amongst your clones.

  357. john sanders on August 11, 2020 at 6:17 am said:

    One thing Gordon and I can certainly agree on is his denial regarding mention of Errol Canney in his recent Q & A conversation with himself. Please be informed GC that, as much as you would like, my comments of 10/8 were not directed at you but for the education of your partner Peter Bowes who called for Errol’s ASIO status.

  358. john sanders on August 11, 2020 at 7:28 am said:

    A twenty word overview of Sapol’s Det. Ray Whitrod having ‘helped to set up ASIO’ in the late 40’s is just the sort of mixed metaphoric information that TS/BS and it’s Chief of gaffs is known and rebuked for. Other ex military Sapol officers with intercept and code cracking talents would also have assisted director Justice Read (based in Adelaide) with implementing unfamiliar intelligence gathering methods based on their own extensive WW2 experience. One such confidant would have been (Colonel) Det. Inspector G.M. Leane who never joined ASIO either, but ended up Sapol Acting Commissioner which is not too bad for an ex mounted constable like big brother R.L. of Somerton Man fame.

  359. john sanders on August 12, 2020 at 5:25 am said:

    Thought the cat had got your tongue Gordon. But that’s fine with me; I wasn’t really expecting a ‘whoops sorry’ from one who uses Wiki and Aust. Bio. hearsay to supplement fanciful ‘facts’ of their own making….With regard to your initial blooper that Whitrod took Canney over to ASIO; turns out they did both happen to be in Sydney in mid ’52, with Ray getting up to speed on Security Service ops. prio to appointment as C.I.S. Director and Errol doing a stint at NSW homicide prior to his promotion to Det. Sen. Sgt. or Insp. on return to Sapol.

  360. john sanders on August 12, 2020 at 8:24 am said:

    Hey GC what gives; first you’re saying “Hope you have a wondetful day”, then five minutes later your kicking the living shit out of my good name. What’s more your newly posted standards of decency rules for your contributor (sick) seems to have that ‘do as I say, not as I do’ double standard about it. Any how you try to have a wonderful day yourself Gorgon and maintain the rage as is your wont.

  361. Tamara Bunke on August 12, 2020 at 10:41 am said:

    Is anyone else bored by the spectacle of septuagenarian Aussies trying to land punches on each other? It’s like watching zombies copulate.

  362. john sanders on August 12, 2020 at 10:52 am said:

    It really is a shame that the early mortuary ID attemps, the names of those so nominated, along with police assessment on credibility were not apparently retained. I’m sort of intertested in a particular loner who was one of two stable hands reported missing, though not identified from what I can gather. I’m thinking along the lines of this bum being of the right age, deportment with a decidedly disheveled appearance and incompatable with the shaven, coiffeured, manicured, pedicured and decently attired beach body with polished shoes that was our SM. My man could well have been mentally deficient with a speech/hearing imediment and even an occasional patient of Parkside hospital like Keith Mangnoson was from November through January ’48. Anyhow, if anyone out there who is still serious about the Somerton Man case and has any, non spy or car theft ideas worth pursuing, give us a holler and we’ll see what transpires.

  363. john sanders on August 12, 2020 at 11:00 pm said:

    Bunkum Tamara: It’s really all ado about a clash of personalities and the cut and thrust of mortal combat ie., when one non compromising old street suit, single handedly exposes a pretender to similar background who is set on ‘fooling all of the people (fools) by devious means and no matter tge consequences. So you see it has nothing to do with copulation in any way shape or form, such suggestion being quite beyond the capabilities of your average septuagenrian, with one notable exclusion not withstanding.

  364. milongal on August 13, 2020 at 1:59 am said:

    How seriously have people looked into RAN man Thornhill – disappeared from QLD October 1948, his wife was messaged suggesting he was in Townsville (which proved wrong) and later from Sydney asking for money for a fare home (also proved untraceable).
    Potentially a lot of overlap with him and other theories – and he was a Coder in the Navy, so perhaps the Rubaiyat writings are a scratch pad for something he was working on…

    War memorial has an article about him (and there’s some articles on trove as well).

    Description varies but 5’7″ (or 5’8″ or 5’11”), light brown curly hair, grey eyes medium build, slight limp (missing joint in Right Thumb – might rule him out)
    You’d also have to wonder how QPol, Thornhill’s wife, and all of his 6 children didn’t recognise him if it was him…..

    (there is also a photo from the papers but I didn’t really get too excited over that)

    https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/804492

  365. john sanders on August 13, 2020 at 7:30 am said:

    milongal: Thornhill’s missing joint would have taken some time growing back same as E. C. Johnston’s middle finger. Anyhow while you’re here, and sorry if I seem to be recapitulating on my old favourite of some time back, that concerning Tothill’s Somerton Stables where Horrie patching and young Neil Day hung out. New lines of inquiry disclose that the old family business transfered into the hands of top trainer Nick Plews during the war years, still on the same site and just five hundred metres due east of the beach, on some road (name escapes me), which runs south to Wyatt Street. I found a young stable hand who may still be with us but a long bow to be drawn for any personal memories as opposed to ledger records…I note that Nick Plews reported to police that a pair of field binoculars were stolen from his parked car in the area which brings to mind one of Prosper’s sale ads.

  366. john sanders on August 13, 2020 at 9:15 am said:

    While it’s still fresh; Harry Tothill set up the Somerton Stables in the ’80’s on an acre and a quarter along Walker’s Rd. which was mostly grazing land and a couple of mansions (Cudmore) towards Broadway. He died young and his only son? Harry James was killed on the Somme in 1918 aged 28, and as a consequence the big house was taken over by Mat Dwyer, a friend of the distraught widow/mother Elizabeth, who seems to have let out the horse stables. It get’s a little bit interesting from here on, if only because Mat was the dad of a likely young lad also, named Mat (barb) who caught up with the Quigley gang when they stole chooks from an enclosure at back. We’re talking of course about Pathologist John Matthew Dwyer who was still camped in closeby in ’46 nit long before he sent PC Sutherland off to Bob Cowan tge analyst with a bucket of SM’s leftovers for examination. From best memory Dr. Dwyer lived at 42 Moseley St. and Bob the chemist opposite and up some towards the Thomson’s and also quite near Doug Hendrickson’s place on the Pier St. corner. Good grouping what?. So if we put that all together we might well come up with all sorts of intriguing theories, even one that may include my almost unloved derelict ex internee? derelict from the N. J. Plews’ stables.

  367. milongal on August 13, 2020 at 10:03 pm said:

    Sorry if I missed it and am rehashing old ground – if he was an itinerant hanging around the stables, why did Patching and Day keep mum about him….I assume the implication was he wasn’t really meant to be at the stables, so they didn’t want to admit he’d been there – and possibly figured some relative would claim him in any event?

    (Among other things) I have a nagging thing about the “dugouts” – the closest reference I can get is an amusement arcade that existed before that time, and I recall some speculation you had some time ago about carnies and the Glenelg Fair. I don’t really know what I think, but it bothers me that nobody seems to know what the ‘dugouts’ refer to (IIRC there were some beach huts near Brighton jetty – but in that case why use the term ‘dugouts’ when you can say “headed toward Brighton”. So we have this conundrum that the dugouts are a significant enough location in their own right to be used as a reference point, but are sufficiently obscure that Adelaideans (even from that neck of the woods) of more recent eras don’t seem to know what they refer to….
    I’ll have to see whether I can find GF’s book again – I can’t remember whether he used the term or whether he was quoting someone else (but given he boarded at Sacred Heart I’d imagine he would be familiar with the local geography – even if that was a bit later).

  368. john sanders on August 14, 2020 at 6:58 am said:

    Mt. Gambier brewer Mattew Dwyer and his family moved from Mt. Gambier to the old Toothil stables at Somerton about 1928, by which time his son John was MD qualified and training in Pathology at Royal Adrlaide Hospital. By 1945 former Col. Dwyer was out of the service and working back at Royal Adelaide along with Dr. Hendrickson and the latter’s brother-in-law and ex Dr. Graeme Robson. It is fairly likely that Chris von Czarnecki, former aid station Sister at the Finsbury & Salisbury munitions works was by now back at the Royal where she had worked pre war, along with another wartime F&S associate, the analytical chemist Bob Cowan. Let’s see; In Moberley St. there’s John Dwyer at 74 or 24, Robert Cowan at 47, Doug Hendrickson at 51, E. Freeman at 49, Sister J.E. Thomson at 91A…and working at Finisbury we had Special Branch Det. H. Strangway, chemist Robert Cowan, Sister Christabel von Czarnecki and at Royal Adelaide, all the aforementioned plus Dr. Robson (ROK b-in-law Mk 1) but excluding Harry the disappearing first attender at X beach.

    I guess if we were to be looking at Somerton Man’s demise in terms of something similar to the WW2 ‘mincemeat’ operation, difference being that in this case the bait on offer was to be alive at the onset and whatsmore most excited to be ‘ the man who never was ‘ for as long as required. This destitute homeless and totally unknown bum was thus given his only real chance of Salvation and of puting an end to his long suffering terminal illness. With guarantees of professional post mortem care eg. mould free embalming, high fashion US feather stitch furenary togs and the promise of a well attended burial plus inscribed name plaque; what else could an unknown man ask for?. Only catch to all of this outpouring of Christian kindness being that in due course the beneficiary was to be deliberately misidentified as an undesireable recently disowned by the Austrslia he loved and most desired to be reunited with. Suffice to say that the pledges made were intended to be kept and not a living soul would be worse off for what went down if the plot came to fruition.

    .

  369. john sanders on August 14, 2020 at 7:24 am said:

    milongal: Two things you might wish to consider: Patching and Day were not likely to have recognised him, cleaned up and dressed to the nines; or they were on the payroll for the sting, both grounds having equi-value in my opinion.

  370. john sanders on August 14, 2020 at 11:37 am said:

    when Neil Day’s mate Horrie Patching was prosecuted for drunken driving in ’51 he was domiciled at Broadway Glenelg, possibly 2A right down by the beach access off South Esplinade where old maps show yet another racing stable. I think I may well have mentioned this once previously as a likely entry point for the boys on the morning of their apparent run in with Somerton Man. On the other hand my other stables on Walker’s Rd. seem to have been closer to Wyatt street which would give good access via John Miller reserve, so place bets on whatever you fancy; both being equidistant from X marks the spot. PS., Leon Macdonald now has the place on Broadway and still trains nags there.

  371. john sanders on August 15, 2020 at 4:19 am said:

    milongal: John Miller Reserve, between College & Whyte Sts. was once set on an expanse of unuseable higher ground above the beach only a short distance from Alvington steps. There is little doubt that had there been any caves or dugouts around, this would have been a more likely site for them than along the South Esplinade road embankment. There isn’t really much about location in the Feltus ‘novel’ and besides Gerry was only at Sacred Heart for a single term in the winter of ’56 so forget about any recollections. It came to mind that the two old 1st AIF diggers, Jack Lyons and Arthur Lear would likely have used the two equine entry points mentioned, Whyte St. and Broadway for their dip, approaching each from opposite ends of Somerton foreshore with the body twixed them. I once tried to pin down old Arthur but all I could dig up was an ex ww1 blacksmith and camel jockey with a bad ticker, born in Bendigo Vic. and who in 1933 got himself stitched for running an illegal interstate horse betting operation at Bulli NSW.

  372. milongal on August 16, 2020 at 11:22 pm said:

    Not convinced there was a 2A Broadway back then (suspect it’s been subdivided since). And although Leon MacDonalds lists as being a “Horse Boarding Stable” there, I think it’s a home-office, rather than a stable (check googlemaps – I don’t think there’d be horsies there these days). Interestingly, though, there are a couple of buildings behind 2/2A (googlemaps shows them being part of 38 The Esplanade (with laneway access next to 2 The Broadway) and 24 Farrel St which might be consistent with old stables (and the garages on the houses at 6-7 Broadway look a little stable-like too

    If it’s any interest, S&M has a JW and HR Jackman @ 2 The Broadway through that period (and as a random coincidence, Egan on the other side of the road).

  373. john sanders on August 17, 2020 at 6:24 am said:

    After discovery of the beach body in 1948 and it’s attendant difficulties re I.D. and C.O.D etc., the S.A. Coroner was to have been informed without delay to accord with time honored common law practise. In this case PCC Sutherland was on hand to be the informant and we know by his then assignation as Coroner’s assisting officer, his orders hence could come only from that higher personage, not acting Det. Sgt. Leane who was free to run his own parallel investigation according to standard police practice. Having regard to specific prevailing circumstances in finding of the Tamam Shud fragment, it being primary evidence directly connected with the deceased, it would have been the Coroner’s prerogitive to withold such evidence if he felt that it not be in the public interest, right up until the inquest should it have been desirable. Actually police held the same discretionary powers to release certain information to the newspapers for publication if it was deemed likely to assist their own case for discovery. Necessary authority would have been by request of case officer R.L.L. Leane to his delegating supervisor Det Inspector W. O. Sheridan and only then released for publication.

  374. john sanders on August 17, 2020 at 11:56 am said:

    milongal: J.W. and H.R. Jackman who, from a real quick look at the old Adelaide nag scene, may have been an owner who went be the name of Jim Jackman in racing circles. So that would seem to fit with your Broadway address I guess. If we could only establish who the missing stable hand was and whence.

  375. john sanders on August 17, 2020 at 1:37 pm said:

    James Wheaton Jackman, big time real estate developer of Broadway Glenelg. Man Played for Norwood in his early years. Fatally ran down a kid on a bike in 1936 then had another prang in ’37, both of which recirded no liabilty and he died in ’59 from old age no doubt.

  376. milongal on August 17, 2020 at 11:41 pm said:

    is Real Estate firm “Jackman and Treloar” related if he were a big developer (I think J&R started around 1901, but could’ve been a relative?)?

    –unrelated–
    Found an interesting (and pretty sure unrelated) R (Ray?) W Jackman – a jockey originally from WA, later riding based at stables in Gawler and later Cheltenham and got in trouble early ’50s for a concealed battery in his sadle (presumably to shock the horse) and disqualified for life….There were claims the name on the saddle suggested it was another (SA) jockey’s…

    There’s also a H M Jackman that seems to be prominent on the horse park….

    but we digress.
    —–

    Forgot if I asked before, does anyone know when the South Esplanade was closed to vehicles North of The Broadway?

  377. john sanders on August 18, 2020 at 7:24 am said:

    Pathologist ‘barb’ Dwyer had lived with his folks and two sibs at 8 Baker’s Road Somerton on the corner of Phillipp St. which runs most conveniently down to the beach. When he retired from the military in 1946 he seems to have been living at Hindmarsh, his dad having gone back to Mt. Gambier to die, while his younger brother Desmond went to live over near Port Pirie. Nickolas St John Plews Jnr. had established his training operations at No 8 well before ’48 and remained through the fifties, though he ended up at Gwaler, passing in ’61.

  378. john sanders on August 18, 2020 at 11:34 am said:

    Peteb: Speculative glue is all fine and dandy, just so long as one follows directions on the tube. Like contact adhesive, the goo must be spread evenly to both dry and grit free receptive surfaces, allowed to become tacky before then aligning them exactly and joining firmly to create the bond. There is no room for error and in your particular case, that whimsical habit of shuffling non alligning bit clues of no real evidentiary value, like pieces of a jig saw puzzle, willing them to meld on call, is going to leave you unstuck mofo.

  379. john sanders on August 18, 2020 at 12:05 pm said:

    milongal: My understanding is, that from Broadway north to Glenelg proper, the original mansions along that part of the coastline were serviced from the rear by a narrow service path from the very early days. I seem to recall that it was called simply The Sea Wall, as opposed to South Esplinade, but I’ll stand corrected as to the truth of such an assumption on my part.

  380. milongal on August 19, 2020 at 12:04 am said:

    There’s a street directory from 1936 (might even be the first ever Adelaide Street Directory) that appears to show South Esplanade
    https://www.samemory.sa.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/Gregorys1936Adelaidedirectory.pdf
    (page 98)

    Lots of unfamiliar suburb names, and sometimes no clear delineation (eg between St Leonards, Glenelg, Dunleath, Helmsdale, Grovene, Da Costa Park) – almost as though they’re intended as housing estates within Glenelg, rather than Suburbs in their own right (or maybe they all had the same post code or maybe they were so knew the mapmakers weren’t sure where the boundaries were or something?)
    You can see the tramline, which appears to follow the current route up jetty Rd and alongside Anzac Highway before merging into another service at King William Road.

    You can also see (maps 23/25 (pages 104/106))the Henley Beach train (with I think Mileposts on the station?) – the Kircalky station is on the opposite side of the road to where I thought (I thought you could still see where the old railway station was there into the 1990s (although hard to tell, because some of what I used to think was the old railway station might have just been retaining the sand dunes) – that’s near the corner of what today is Grange Rd)

    (Incidentally I also stumbled across a blog that fairly thoroughly covers a lot of the stuff from here (eg the small add analysis) and summarises with their own theory of an assisted suicide) – and some alternate explanations)

  381. milongal on August 19, 2020 at 12:14 am said:

    Ah yeap, Fuller’s 1948 map lists it as “Sea Wall” (Although it still appears as a street)
    Also appears to show the St LEonard’s bus terminating in Osmond St (which I think might be “Old Tapleys Hill Rd” rather than weaving through the backstreets off Adelphi St).

    I find it mildly interesting that “Terminus St” in Grange is already called that – given that the train line goes beyond there….

  382. john sanders on August 21, 2020 at 3:52 am said:

    milongal: I’d forget about St. Leonards, simply because it does not fit with SM’s final destination and what’s more Arthur Holderness (or one of them) did give an option of an alternate Somerton route, which is also clearly evident on the Fuller’s 1948 map of Glenelg . Not to say that Somerton Man necessarily caught that bus either, just that it would’ve been one more convenient to someone familiar with Adelaide suburbs.

    I’ve noted Gerry’s brief mention of a reported missing stable hand, as opposed to boring pages of other nominees who could not have any realistic baring on the case whatsover. SM may well have received a shave and good going over (see above), so as to present a very different likeness to usual appearance, hence no recognition. NB: Longish unkempt hair might be overlooked due to the attendant make over artist’s lack of abilty.

  383. john sanders on August 25, 2020 at 12:41 pm said:

    Boris: That fine detailed all encompassing answer was taken from Clive’s block buster alleged interview with Paul, as reported by Gordon Cramer some time in July 2017. I guess that takes care of all the doubting; right? BUT, if not you’ll be looking for a new job over this way where doubting Thomas’s are most welcome.

  384. milongal on August 25, 2020 at 10:10 pm said:

    As you would know, the bus stuff has been a bugbear of mine for ages. I know there was an alternate route through Somerton – I’ve spoken about it before (from memory it began in about ’36), and even proposed that it might still have been referred to as a variant on the “St Leonard’s line” rather than as a route in its own right. But I seem to remember someone establishing (based on the time that the bus issuing the ticket ran) that it was definitely the StL flavour not the Somerton flavour that was used). That said, agree that there’s not much interest in StL itself (just interested that the route shown in the street directories doesn’t seem to be the same route we’ve found through other means).

    One of the problems (stablehand or otherwise) I have with the whole thing is the lack of identification. Sure there’s a chance that people were afraid to come forward (as Nick has suggested), but I think more likely that the (edited) photo is not the best likeness (the bust and the photo aren’t obviously the same person).
    If he were an itinerant stablehand, wouldn’t his hands have been rougher?

    NB: One of the problems we seem to see with almost every idea that gets floated, is that we need to simply explain away some of the evidence (while treating other bits as absolutely critical). I’ll happily agree that most of the evidence is unreliable, however we can’t (as some do) choose that certain bits of it are absolutely certain while other bits can be easily dismissed as having been planted, manipulated or misreported.

    (As I think I’ve ranted about before) Most of the modern narrative is speculation. We don’t know anything about what he did that morning (we know there was a suitcase deposited at the Railway Station, we don’t *know* it was by him; we know he had a ticket for the Henley Train, we don’t *know* that he purchased it; etc, etc, etc). Basically all we know is that there was a body found on the beach….starting from there, we start choosing whose evidence we believe – and if we don’t believe the evidence from the authorities, then all bets are off about everything, because we don’t even know how accurately the beach scene and possessions were reported. There’s a bit of a conundrum that many people seem to happily accept that some part of the authorities were corrupt or deliberately confounding (for whatever motive), or incompetent – but if we accept that, we have to question the veracity of every piece of evidence – and suddenly can’t assume ANYTHING is reported correctly to us some 70 years later. Pick the coppers/analysts/scientists who we think are bodgey, and then consider which bits of the narrative they can and can’t affect.

    NB2: One of my favourites is that the TS slip was planted. It just seems such a pointless thing to do. The case is becoming a John Doe and people are losing interest, so we plant the TS slip (which only serves to reignite focus), and then somehow the rest of the Rubaiyat appears – either also manipulated by the original planter, or just some pranksters trying to get their name in the paper get taken too seriously or something….The more conspiracy that is involved in the whole thing, the stranger it is that we have any evidence. It’s sort of the biggest argument I’ve ever had with the BS site – we’re asked to simultaneously believe that this is orchestrated by the world’s greatest spies who are invisible and expert in their craft, yet they’ve left us a whole bunch of clues to work that out….

    I must have taken my grumpy pills this morning

  385. пожалуйста on August 25, 2020 at 10:51 pm said:

    I prefer ‘skeptic’ to doubter, John. I hope that’s a more constructive and honourable position.

    And I’m equally at home here, there and everywhere. Although I draw the line at Bigfooty. Two bear pits are plenty for this gentle soul.

  386. john sanders on August 26, 2020 at 8:21 am said:

    Pozalujata: I’ll keep your prefered ‘skeptic’ in mind; my view being that doubting Thomas sounds less accusory…Funny thing about Bigtooty is, despite it having been subjected to yet another GC hostile takeover, some of it’s weird content is occasionally found to contain elements of truth. Something rarely encountered on either the BS or cloned Tbt site; that stamp being confirmed by said content having nothing to do whatsoever with ourTamam Shud investigation or any other known topic of human interest.

  387. john sanders on August 26, 2020 at 8:51 am said:

    One additional piece for we ‘skeptics’ Boris is, that on 10 July, 2017 TS/BS posted that the clandestine meetings between Alf Boxall and Jessica Harkness were known to Clive’s informant Paul Lawson in 1949. Your recent Tbt nicely worded ‘let off the hook’ evaluation that it could have come about from the 1977/78 Stuart Littlemore interviews does not therefore pass muster…Never give these crooks an inch Boris, they don’t deserve it.

  388. john sanders on August 26, 2020 at 10:59 am said:

    milongal: The shave and the good going over that I spoke of seemed to be sound enough reasons, in my opinion to suggest people might not be able to recognise a man known to them. Lieing dead there on a slab well groomed and dressed nicely, as opposed to the same fellow always spotted loitering around the stables with a long flowing beard, unwashed and thread bare appearance, would be a test for mine.

  389. john sanders on August 26, 2020 at 1:38 pm said:

    If you don’t mind me saying so Boris, your problems with the Clive Turner/Walker interview rest squarely on the shoulders of Peter Bowes’ insistance that Len Brown put pressure on Paul Lawson (8/6/49) to keep mum on what conversation passed between the detectives during the final stages of his bust. Presumably it was all to do with two unknown entities sharing shipping news intelligence with Russians at clandestine meeting venues in Sydney back in the day. Turns out that one was an officer of engineers based at Georges Head t’other a petit French army nurse, both of who’s names were as yet unknown to police or ASIO. Does that fit your current line if reasoning? If so you’ve been had by the self confessed master of deception.

  390. пожалуйста on August 26, 2020 at 1:46 pm said:

    @Sanders, all

    well I confess I made a mistake… confusing the Clifton Gardens and the “grounds on the RNSH”. Sometimes it’s just too obvious that I come from the regional backwater of Yekaterinburg, rather than the wild lights of Sydney with it’s sawtooth littoral topography.

    I think my train of thought was going in the direction that Mr. Lawson may have inadvertently muddled some memories up and had found out about the Boxall/Harkness liasion from the Littlemore doc (and not some time earlier). But now that you have pointed me finally to the actual reference on TS/BS, I’m inclined to think that Clive’s reference to “they” isn’t to Boxall/Harkness at all, but to SM/Harkness.

    I’m awaiting Clive’s confirmation of that… so we’ll see.

    If it is indeed so, then it feels like Mr. Lawson either knows a hell of a lot more than he’s giving away; or he’s playing games with what he considers might be credulous parties. To be fair to the conspiracy-minded: Lawson clearly WAS cagey even in ’78 (or whenever the Littlemore film is from). But (and?) that caginess doesn’t necessarily scream conspiracy to me. There’s tender ground everywhere you tread. Even in Australia.

    Anyway, let’s cut it, boys.

    Just one more thing: if it is indeed so, then it firms up the Harkness/SM connection via her work as a nurse. So he’s very possibly a patient… as so many have suggested for so long. And if he was, then you’re not telling me no-one has been here before, with a badge and a warrant to have a peek at the records in the cellar?

  391. john sanders on August 27, 2020 at 7:15 am said:

    TAMAN is, co-incidentally, according to well informed GC, a so named peninsular in the former soviet territory. SHUD on the other hand, though not so co-incidentally, as defined in the urban dictionary, is a substance resembling both shit and mud but is in fact neither…By my own mean reckoning the latter could also well refer to the sort of murky crap churned out by several dedicated TAMAM SHUD blog sites that are hardly worth naming.

  392. john sanders on August 27, 2020 at 8:29 am said:

    Not surprisingly, there is quite a bit in the Adelaide press regarding theft offences from suburban horse stables, particularly around race courses and local training yards in the early post war years. For instance Keith Victor Lugg 19, stablehand of Broadway Glenelg was jailed for six months in 1947 for stealing clothing from his mates; then four local track workers reported kit stolen from their digs in 1951. There must have been some pretty rough types hanging around the traps in SM’s day and I’d think that there’s a fair chance that he could have been one of them.

  393. milongal on August 27, 2020 at 10:21 pm said:

    @JS: I’ve long chuckled at references to the BS site. Originally intended as BlogSpot, no doubt…

  394. john sanders on August 28, 2020 at 6:56 am said:

    Give it to Pete, white-anting GC’s ownership of all things Boxall/Jestyn, in securing his very own phone interview with Paul Lawson, is a coupe indeed, allbeit with some manipulation involved. Be assured that the taped interview with visuals wil be posted to apease the skeptics if I’m any judge of Peter Bowes the man

    Gordon Cramer’s four previous paraphrased, second hand Paul Lawson sessions with Clive being face to face format were likely not recorded as far as we know, so we are in for a treat with Pete….Of course his related post was not without it’s usual glaring errors whether by accident or other, an example of course being his assertion that Gerry Feltus was able to seek an interview with the long dead spy Alf Boxall at his Maroubra home. That was where we are told the original endorsed copy of deceased’s Sha’ir Omar Khayyam was produced, this version of course being at odds with what is stated on page 202 of Gerry’s Unknown Man ebook.

  395. john sanders on August 28, 2020 at 9:03 am said:

    Yes Gordon, plagiarism in every sense of the word for mine, but subject to content varification with a Tomsbytwo visual link. A thing in your favour, apart of course from your many failures to communicate truthfully, you usually do manage to get important historical dates correct; Pete’s two real bloopers being the years 1948 and 1978, both hi-lighted and both factually incorrect. For the record in June ’48 Len Brown was not yet a detective and SM not yet deceased; as for the Littlemore interview, it was taped in 1977, a year before it went to air in mid 1978 I recall.

  396. john sanders on August 28, 2020 at 11:17 am said:

    Good news for Pêt tge Plagiarist and I must hereby in all fairness to him stand corrected for fear of being labeled a big fibber. Although the production of Inside Story commenced in 1977, Paul Lawson’s interview with Littlmore was actually taped in March 1978. So there you go, Pete got it right and I was mistaken which is not unknown.

  397. john sanders on August 29, 2020 at 8:35 am said:

    My addled old noggin at fault once more I’m afraid, but full points to both Pete and Gordon for their well constructed means of effecting interviews with Paul Lawson sans any proofs of related conversations. For those who didn’t pick up on the dodge, our villains claim to have taken calls from Paul and not vice versa, thereby preventing taped visuals or recording of any SM topics such as the AB & JH ship counting exchanges etc. Looks like Borris also missed the boat yet again, Bowes for a change only able to put two questions to the talkative old gentleman in a full fifteen minutes, a sound enough excuse Peteb by any reckoning.

  398. milongal on August 30, 2020 at 10:18 pm said:

    Problem is that as we age our memory tricks us by remembering things incorrectly – and is especially susceptible to suggestion.
    How many interviews have “major players” had in their life, each one potentially twisting memories of how things actually happened to suit the narrative of the interviewer. And each subsequent interviewer honing in on some little detail (often misinterpreted) and cultivating that memory in a fresh new direction.

    There have been countless studies done on the susceptibility of witnesses bias through suggestion. There’s a documentary somewhere on Netflix (It might be in a kid’s series “Brain Games” – or it might not….) that simulates a bag-snatching, then interviews witnesses about. Ultimately it ends up in a “Court Room” where they have one of the witnesses plant seeds about what actually happened, and before long the bulk of the other witnesses are swearing that a camera was stolen, not a wallet…..
    It has an interesting segue to a detective who explains what sort of witness statements he finds credible, and which can be almost immediately dismissed (including excitable people who are certain that they never miss a detail), and techniques that can be used to maximise the likelihood of distinguishing between a genuine witness and a story-teller.
    Couple this with our human tendency to exaggerate a story (and over time re-enforce our exaggerated story to ourselves) and an interview so far after the fact starts to become quite unreliable.

    In short, I wouldn’t put too much weight on an interview with someone who was a small part of the show 70+ years ago – that’s being related through a third-party filter. But then I’m always skeptical that any interview on TV is twisted to some agenda too….

  399. john sanders on August 31, 2020 at 8:53 am said:

    I’m still pondering over Neil Day’s extremely short winded version of his visit to Somerton with his old hoop partner Horrie Patching to excercise their nags on the day. According to him they arrived around 5.30am and entered the beach via Farrel St. (my take) shortly after the big 9 foot spring tide reached it’s high water mark along the sea wall. He states that they saw our man SM, thought he was sleeping, rode a mile or so to Brighton along the foreshore, retraced their route back and then decided to check him out. That could not be achieved in my opinion due solely to the high water preventing southward progress beyond the sailing club outjuttings or even nearby Wilkinson Ave. sand spit. I’m sure Neil Day must have been grilled some on this business since coming in from the cold and it would be nice if results of any such proceedings could be posted. If SM had had some connection with Somerton or Glenelg stables as has been mused, then my guess is that the lads were likely aware of what was going down prior to their dawn arrival on the day..

  400. john sanders on August 31, 2020 at 10:47 am said:

    Both Gerry Feltus and his lodge mate from 2011 Gordon Cramer must share equal blame for misleading honest folks as correct details of the dual language ROK. The former in his novel says that it was printed by Australian Publishing Co. while the latter, has time and time again refered to Alf’s gift book as having been published by Collins as recently as today. One last time if I may; that particular copy of the Sha’ir Omar Khayyam was printed by the Australasian Publishing Company limited Sydney in 1944.

  401. john sanders on September 1, 2020 at 2:16 am said:

    The latest Von Czarnecki NAA freedom from information file has just been put on line for our reading displeasure eg. 40 bucks worth of repetitious bullshit by any estimation. Not recommended reading apart from the missing first pages which are still deemed too sensitive after 75 years for spies like us to feast our eyes on.

  402. john sanders on September 3, 2020 at 3:17 am said:

    The dud jumbo’s apparent early parole is welcome, it being a long held belief that even bottom feeders deserve a second chance if they repent. In saying this I would urge Boeing 747 to moderate his future personal character assassination slurrs, undertaken to gain the favour of his handler, a compulsive fibber and accused plagiarist no less.

  403. john sanders on September 4, 2020 at 12:37 pm said:

    Cramer’s BS/TS, claimed to be most authoritive of the dedicated Tamam Shud case investigation sites would have his fawning supplicants believe that a body found on an Adelaide beach in 1948, undoubtedly poisoned by soviets, was close to an allied nuclear testing ground. We the all knowing would beg to inform the dupes and BS supplicant blind followers, that there was likely no atomic testing ground even proposed in 1948, in fact it wasn’t until eight years later in 1956 that the British commenced ground testing their you beaut atomic ordinance at Maralinga far from Adelaide and a thousand miles from care. Another site even further away in another state (territory) called Woomera rocket testing range was almost up and running in the late 40s but that was even more distant, so BS couldn’t have the two locations and their respective activities confused, could they?..

  404. john sanders on September 4, 2020 at 1:12 pm said:

    OK, so Woomera is actually in S.A. but still a long hop through the desert. from the murder capital of Australia and rocket testing didn’t get going until 1949 anyway. A portion of their ordinance probably had been delivered from Salisbury munitions factory in distant Adelaide, but not the nuclear variety from my layman’s grasp on atom spys with their plottings and brewings.

  405. john sanders on September 9, 2020 at 7:51 am said:

    Peteb: Dr. Davide Ferorelli, of the RSLM in his forensic anthropology notes of 2017 with which I’m most familiar, should put to rest Cramer’s piffle on the convenient excuse for his SM nominee Pavel Fedosimov GRU losing the odd inch or two after discovery on Somerton Beach. According to Dr. Dave who made disclosures based on an even hundred spare cadivers, his findings revealed an increase in height of a centimetre or less during the first two hours following expiration, then a slight contraction of 0.06cm average, to bring his volunteers right back to their living length dimensions. Speaking respectfully of the dead I always do, are you still with us old cock? you’ve been quiet of late!

  406. Point me and I’ll shoot .. problem is there’s not many targets left. Cramer’s down, mine host is carefully ignoring the advances that have been made, the Professor is blind in one eye, BarryT has abandoned the case after such an excellent start, Clive’s gone quiet, Byron is lost in the mulga, misca to the eskimos .. which leaves you, me and dude47 with nowhere to go and nothing to do.

  407. Not to mention English Boris … mind like a rapier that bloke, admirable.

  408. milongal on September 10, 2020 at 12:14 am said:

    FFS, I don’t care about “this is the only picture we have” etc.

    Pavel Ivanovich Fedosimov and his wife Vera Sergeyevna were in New York until the late 30s. They then (traceably) worked in postings in Libya and the UK. They later (50s and 60s) attended IAEA conferences.

    PIF is not SM. And no matter how it’s twisted, it’s still piffle. If it’s a commonly reused alias (including, presumably the wife’s name) then how come we only have 2 instances of it? This is one of those arguments (all too common in SM land) where we’re asked to simultaneously believe 2 opposites (namely that the PIF name is uncommon enough to appear only twice, but also to have been so commonly reused that we have 2 instances of him in near identical roles etc….

    I don’t even see a resemblence with the photo and don’t buy the “actually, it might be SM, but wrongly classified as PIF). I quit reading the BS site because I couldn’t put up with the amount of counter-intuition and logical fallacies (or phallusies?) required to follow the theory (don’t get me started on Danetta). I hate to cite Occam’s Razor (not least because I think it’s often mis-cited), but the explanations to be able to turn PIF (or the photo that may not be PIF) into SM are so convoluted that I don’t even know how to finish that sentence…..

  409. john sanders on September 10, 2020 at 3:43 am said:

    Speaking of cadavers I still don’t see how, if SM was 5’11” tall as stated by press on day one, Laurie Elliott could have made do with a standard sized plain coffin. It is difficult to proportionalise the funeral photo of course with limited foreground comparison subjects but it certainly looks on the short side. I was able to come up with pall bearer Bob Whitington’s height at almost 5’11” of whose widow’s peak can just be made out in the graveside shot behind. He was the Advertiser police roundsman and photographer who was most knowledgeable on all the SM case details, hence his presence at the funeral. What a bummer that he didn’t leave some notes behind.

  410. john sanders on September 10, 2020 at 5:12 am said:

    Of all those who are known to have actually seen the Somerton man’s body apart from mortuary ID ghouls, ie. investigating police along with their forensic technical officers, medical examiners, chemical analysists, anthropologists and others of varying fields of expertise; Not a single one, apart from the autopsy pathologist Dr. John Matthew Dwyer made any comment concerning height that I’m aware of, in which event ‘tallish’ wasn’t giving much away. So where did 5’11” come from, the height that Det. Leane gave in his evidence and that which came through as the initial press release at midday on 1st December, 1948. The only person missing from the list would seem to be SOC man Harry Strangway who strangely went missing after his initial involvement. NB. John Cleland said ‘height to be advised’.

  411. john sanders on September 10, 2020 at 8:15 am said:

    On the question of whether Somerton man’s sponsored funeral actually made any difference to the type service he might otherwise have received if paid for out of state coffers, the answer would appear to be not in the slightest. His burial place was considered most appropriate due to it’s ease of accessability should later exhumation prove necessary, especially in that it was an expired lease and as the funeral pics denoted, the coffin being similar to one used in pauper burials and accompanied by the usual Salvation Army free service. There was some talk about the Grandstand Bookmaker’s paying for pauper burials in the past, though I don’t see how SM’s funeral could be put in such category or even deemed legitimate considering that the case was unresolved and investigation ongoing under state jurisdiction. I’m smelling a rat the size of a missing racehorse stable hand perhaps.

  412. john sanders on September 11, 2020 at 8:37 am said:

    Not being one to seek help with my research efforts, but I’m in a quandary as in whether to give up on Carl Von Czarnecki or struggle on in hope of enlightenment which I surely could do with. The Von title inclusion from it’s Polish roots is now extremely rare,unlike the original version which is as common as Nguyen in Hanoi.
    Of my knowledge, based mostly on Ancestry records and the like, only a single related? family in Australia (SA) and possibly Canada (BC) share the German landed gentry dirivitive and yet there seems to be an element of disassociation between my candidates which I can’t fathom due to their otherwise suggestive blood links.

    Working from top down, both being males we have Peter Wolfe Czar..aged 83 who lives with partner of long standing Naomi in suburban Adelaide and is a retired Advertiser journalist cum sketch artist. He and mum are members of the so called ‘Adalaide Club’ involved in any number of artistic fields such as Steam Punk art and vintage car restoration. All we know to date from his past is that he was born in WA to Christabel & Carl, schooled in Adelaide until at least ’54, travelled the world including Nth America til ’62, then for some shorter period with Naomi in the early seventies and nothing more including no record of them having a family.

    The difficulties arise with Terry, aged about 65, who seems on the cusp of being too old to be Peter’s lad but who doesn’t fit anywhere else. He was apparently from Clare SA where ‘Peter-boy’s’ doting dad and later renegade nazi H.W.E. C. Von Czarnecki worked variously during the depression years and met future spouse, nurse C. M. Davis. Interesting thing about young Terry is that he attended the Hastings St. Elementary school in Vancouver from ’68 to ’72 before finishing up at Clare High in ’73. He married into a German S.A. family in 1981 and wife Susan gave him two fine well accomplished boys in their respective like professions whose names I’ll withold for now. Sue died at Clare in 2009.

    If we go back to old Carl Czar.., when he took on his assumed short version name to avoid being arrested for colluding with the losers at war’s end and in so doing signed up for resettlement abroad as a persecuted nazi victim, only three allied countries that I know of were excepting refugees of such persuasion, they being NZ, Australia & Canada to which I was then able to trace him through letters purporting to be part of a detailed auto bio. Cross checking with three of four Aust. Govt Security Service investigation files dating from 1942 nothing correlates for me and I’m mostly at a loss as how the man might eventually have settled in Clare in 1973 as is claimed. There are no death records that I can find for him period.

  413. john sanders on September 12, 2020 at 7:57 am said:

    Peteb: If you say that the off white Keane tie is likely a symbol of the Masonic Lodge and it makes sense to you, the odds of making an ID would be shortened considerably. That is to say SM would most certainly not have been Irish Catholic, Communist, Musselman or even Orthodox Jew according to the draconian Lodge by-laws of the day. NB: Aboriginal & Torres Straights Islanders might also have had difficulties signing up which probably leaves me out too.

  414. Pete B + John S: it’s something I looked at a while ago, but didn’t find anything half as good as your (Pete’s) picture. The best I found on Trove was a 1978 article which states that “grand officers wear white tie and tails (a requirement which, these days, leads to some problems of supply)“, which – tie apart – the Somerton Man’s suitcase contents seemed a little short of:
    https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1589769911/view?sectionId=nla.obj-1757560244&partId=nla.obj-1589846176#page/n50/mode/1up

    Oh, and you can add divorcees to the list of Masonic persona non grata back in 1948. Just so you know.

  415. Incidentally, while idly schmoozing through Trove looking for white ties just now, I found this nice white-tie wise guy smoking a cigar and carrying a violin case, from the Samuel Hood theatrical photographic collection (“File number: FL1008313, File title: 308. Smoker with violin case”):
    https://digital.sl.nsw.gov.au/delivery/StreamGate?dps_dvs=1599903419628~663&dps_pid=FL1008313&dps_func=download&dps_pid=FL1008313

    OK, it’s probably an unnamed actor pretending to be a wise guy, but he looks more like the Somerton Man than anything I’ve seen on… other sites I could name. So perhaps SM wasn’t a gangster, just an out of work actor who was reasonably good at looking like a gangster. 😉

  416. john sanders on September 16, 2020 at 5:27 am said:

    Seems we forgot to mention that when police asked the anticipated question of Mrs. Thomson (Jessica Harkness), she was able to respond with ” We were on our way back from Melbourne where my husband had been an invitee to the new Holden car launching, and why may I ask do you need to know Inspector? “…Some time if not too busy, those not up to speed might find that there were actually two watering holes within three hundred yards of Alvington steps in 1948; so the Pier Hotel on Jetty Rd. would not likely have relevance to distance walked by SM.

  417. Name them, boogie man.

  418. john sanders on September 16, 2020 at 10:20 am said:

    Peteb: Broadway Hotel with access to the beach; I’ll leave t’other as a challenge that any half witted SM researcher should be able to answer in a trice. But for any dunce that doesn’t know where the Thomson’s were wed or where Jessica was really born and schooled will struggle.

  419. john sanders on September 16, 2020 at 1:38 pm said:

    Jessica’s ‘delight in being back in the auld dart’ indeed Peteb, maybe you got that from Bookmaker of Rabaul which no one ever read. I seem to recall a similar letter from Cornwall or perhaps on the way home where she spoke about two brats in need of nurturing and summit to do with bed pans or the like.

  420. The Broadway Hotel was so badly damaged by the 1948 cyclone it was closed until re-opening for the Christmas holidays later that year .. and as far as Jessica’s background is concerned, don’t believe everything you read .. there’s a lot of undocumented bullshit floating around on the web, and most of it is yours. Mountains of the stuff, sometimes you take up the entire 15 comments slot in this place … it must drive the Voynich mob nuts. If Dome ever decides he’s had enough of you, which I doubt because he’s a charitable old Pom, you’ll have nowhere else to go.
    The horror!
    Fair dinkum mate, you might consider trying to get something to combat this attention seeking disorder of yours .. like a life.
    I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

  421. milongal on September 16, 2020 at 10:56 pm said:

    @NP: Just FYI, NSW governemnt link earlier is borked (I suspect they don’t understand how the internet works and never thought they’d have to reprocess the same search request or somethink)

  422. Tamara Bunke on September 16, 2020 at 10:58 pm said:

    Christ. I see someone’s turned the gaslights back on down under.

  423. john sanders on September 16, 2020 at 10:59 pm said:

    Not to worry Peteb, we had discussed tge professor’s withered virgin letter to sister joan from Blighty in ’61. jo got the mumps on the way across, some days in London, a nice stay in Scotland thence Cornwall; back to Oz on the Flavia in late ’61 with family taking up residency in Meningie SA.

  424. milongal on September 16, 2020 at 11:18 pm said:

    Hey Pete (ok, you sucked me into reading your latest:) ), re drunken stumblings, perhaps he stumbled along the beach rather than along the street – then he doesn’t need to navigate the steps. Further perhaps he left Glenelg mildly tipsy with a bottle of whiskey (or some other plonk) that he’s consumed as he went, throwing the bottle away somewhere en route.
    But even away from that, surely if he were drunk (or drunk to that degree) rather than drugged/dying/both:
    1) He would still reek of booze in the morning (enough that you’d think there’d be a mention of it in police reports)
    2) The autopsy would’ve reported it (Admittedly this is just me assuming they’ve always checked whether a stiff was under the affluence of incohol)

    Also re “Who was Jessica the legend?” type questions.
    Frustratingly, I struggle with a lot of this as well, with any “concrete fact” generally lifted from Abbot. You’ll recall some time ago here we all got very excited about all sorts of things about her (living in Pirie or somewhere from memory, and leaving for overseas in the mid ’30s and stuff) – only to discover that this was a different Jessica Ellen Harkness (who coinicdentally was also a nurse, and appears never to have returned to Aus and was within a couple of years of the same age). I seem to recall someone (possibly your mate JS) suggesting an identity switch – that a recently departed (never to return) nurse was a suitable identity to steal for whatever reason you felt the need you needed a new identity (although I also have some older recollection that somebody had found her (more likely her) at least enrolled in training in Sydney at some stage)…..But like most of us I’ve forgotten far more than I remember about some of the rabbit holes we’ve been on this one….

  425. milongal on September 17, 2020 at 12:16 am said:

    Oh, also I was reading somewhere (not GC@BS) a claim that you can see other (not necessarily micro) writing on the page . I couldn’t see it myself, but in particular there was a claim that there was a phone number either O,Q or G 2953.
    G, O and Q didn’t exist as prefixes back then, however Adelaide city seemed to somehow use ‘C’ (It’s not clear to me how, because as I understand it ‘C’ wasn’t one of the 9 prefixes either – so I’m not sure how you dial C, but nonetheless trove is full of C numbers for Adelaide City Centre).
    The closest match I could find then (I figured C is similar enough to O and G for it to be mistaken) is C2983.
    This number appears a lot in trove as:
    1) An electrician in the 1930s (as best I can tell in the Southern Suburbs – but possibly well South (there’s a mention of “Christies” which I assume is “Christies Beach”)
    2) Selling a block of land in Brighton in 1949
    3)in the 1950s Linked to 222a Hanson St (today Pulteny St*) – this is listed as “lic dlr” and appears among other things to deal in Cars (from memory although Duffield was also on Hanson St, he was at the other end closer to Wakefield) trading as Sallis and Co. While this obviously post-dates SM, car connections always seem to be of a little interest – and Sallis was there before that, even if they weren’t using with that phone number
    4) From memory between the electrical and Salis there was also some ads for clean fill or earthworks or something (but I think Sallis might have been part dealer part some sort of heavy vehicle operator – although the ‘a’ makes it sounds like a small lot for such a business).

    *Digression: Adelaide City is designed according to Light’s vision in a NS/EW grid. Although most people recognise Rundle Mall as the modern-day centre (and for shoppers it is), the geographic centre is at Victoria Square, with a Square Mile around it being surrounded by North, West, South and East Terraces (East Terrace is designed as a step ladder shape rather than a straight line as a defence against natives that were feared to be wanting to attack from the hills in the East. This sort of shape meant that you could defend on 2 fronts if you had to). So the centre streets in Adelaide are King William running North/South, and Wakefield/Grote running East/West (and there’s actually some nice pubs South of Vic Sq). You’ll notice that like Wakefield and Grote, every East/West St in Adelaide changes its name at King William. Adelaide folklore suggests that this is because the King insisted that “noone will ever cross me”, so we have Rundle/Hindley, Pirie/Currie, Grenfell/Waymouth, Flinders/Franklin, Wakefield/Grote, Gouger/Angas, Carrington/Wright, Halifax/Sturt, Gilles/Gilbert.
    Interestingly, what I’m noticing in the old street directory is that a similar rule seems to have been applied as we cross Wakefield St – so Hanson St was the Southern end of Pultney St (not it’s entirety) and number 40 (Duffield motors) would have been somewhere near the Coopers Alehouse (then the Earl of Aberdeen) while 220 would have been in the last or second to last block around Giles St…..

  426. john sanders on September 17, 2020 at 2:44 am said:

    Cripes Peteb: Attention seeking and rumour mungering jibes; that coming from the foremost non substance ‘picture and paste’ exponent with matching ego in the business. Ever known Sanders to use such fancy trappings to support his modest offerings for evaluation, or allow those who offer false witness to go unchallenged, without fear or favour..So Mr. Sincerity, while I check your most helpful info on Broadway pub closure, the second Somerton watering hole from my challenge awaits. It undoubtedly would have tried to keep it’s bar & grill open during the storm and tempest of April ’48 for pride. Best beer battered whiting on the coast in the mid sixties if you’ll trust my word..

  427. But Milongal, mate, the stiff they performed the autopsy on wasn’t the drunk seen waving his arm around on the previous evening.
    Check trousers wearing for the use of: they were different. Fact. Strapps the man for that. The drunk was in stripes, the corpse in plain brown-faun.
    And while we’re at it … what could have made Harkness so valuable as to warrant all the protection?
    This business about her and Alf exchanging shipping news is a little lame, seeing half of Sydney had a harbour view

    and Tamara, you sound like the kind of sheila I could get on with. But you’d have to be over 70 and know how to surf. You in?

  428. john sanders on September 17, 2020 at 5:51 am said:

    Tamara Bunkum: Actually you are getting a little tedious yourself, having not a lot to offer in the way of opinion, but for opinionated sledging directed towards our most esteamed (sic) elderly all knowing SM case advisers Messrs. Bowes & Cramer. Being a much junior, though very close observer of these great though very near depleted pretenders, I’d be inclined, if I were thee, to maybe cut a little more slack towards their constant incoherent ramblings and let the old phonies simply fade away. In the meantime I’ll do my utmost to keep them from straying off subject as is their wont and promise to promote SM, if you pledge to do likewise Comrade.

  429. john sanders on September 17, 2020 at 9:11 am said:

    Thomas Lawson Harkness Snr. 1888/1970 formed partnership with a Maitland based electrician named Charlie Allen in about 1920 at which time he moved the family, Ellen and the two boys (Ted & Tom) from Mentone Vic. to Newcastle NSW, taking out mortgages on a suburban dwelling in Hunter St. (details on hand). During the next few years or so two daughters were born, the first named Jessie in 1921 at Maryville (Ridge) nursing mother’s hospital and Jean in 1923 at a similar centre run by the Salvation Army. It seems that the contract business was not as profitable as hoped for, the partnership dissolving in late 1925 and old Tom going into voluntary singular bankruptcy (details of liquidation on hand) in 1926. From that point on things get hazy though it seems that the Harkness family minus Jessie went back to Mentone for baby Ellen’s birth in 1928. My source suggests our girl was likely raised by the Salvos and may have been fostered as well, going to local schools then starting her nursing career at about fifteen in an ‘Army’ run charity hospital. She may later have sought higher status at a training hospital such as Royal Newcastle where she may have qualified by 1942 though this is a logical assumption on my part. That was the year of her alleged start of training at RNSH Sydney at the mature age of 22. No wonder her name is not recorded as a tranee or in house fully qualified nurse through numerous searches over the years. Naysayers can believe what they like about most likely irrelevant Jo Thonmson’s upbringing but they’re not going to make much headway out Marrickville way, rest assured.

  430. Back it up mate …

  431. john sanders on September 17, 2020 at 12:50 pm said:

    Peteb: If you’re addressing me, perhaps a rumour of feigned civility might be in order. If not than accept my apologies for any perceived doubts concerning your provocative tone in questioning of my subject knowledge and integrity. Good manners maketh the man after all is said and done mofo.

  432. Tamara Bunke on September 17, 2020 at 2:33 pm said:

    @Peteb – the surfing’s not great at Vado del Yeso, I’m afraid. But there’s an airstrip at Vallegrande nearby. You dig?

  433. milongal on September 17, 2020 at 9:38 pm said:

    @Pete: If the drunk wasn’t the stiff then the wandering from Glenelg didn’t necessarily happen – so the wander from the hotel becomes a moot point, because in that case it’s not SM and was not necessarily someone tying one on at the broadway – or have I totally missed where you were going with that?

    While I agree there’s a good possibility the “drunk on the beach” wasn’t SM (I find it extraordinary that even Lyons who saw both wasn’t prepared to say he thought they were same), I think the stripes vs plain trousers is potentially just confused witnesses. I think I mentioned here before a doco on Netflix that shows the differing witness statements from people who were present at the same incident (to the point where people swear the offender was wearing a red jacket when they were in fact in a blue one – and that’s being interviewed almost immediately after the fact; with time the discrepancy only grows). How soon after the body was found were Strapps and Neil interviewed, and are they reliable witnesses? Both they and Lyons claim they couldn’t really see the face because it was dark (which I find odd given the time and the distance away they were), yet we accept with certainty that they talk about striped pants? And the reality is that despite our focus on them looking into history, at the time they would have been recollecting an incident that at the time wasn’t necessarily particularly memorable for them.

    One of the things we seem to forget in a lot of this, is that when the body was first found the coppers assumed it was a mundane death and that the body would be claimed shortly and everything would continue on as normal. By the time they realised they needed to be thorough the horse had likely already bolted – and had involved several different teams of investigators who potentially had different ways of recording and sharing (or not) what they found.

    So it’s easy for us to be critical of how the case was handled at the time, but the police couldn’t have known that this was going to become such a mystery. In fact I found an ex-copper’s assertion that every death is thoroughly investigated quite odd. Given the number of bodies the police must collect, and given the number of them that are probably quite mundane, I don’t believe that even today (when we should know better) there is sufficient rigour in a lot of bodies that are picked up – simply because it’s a routine task that you’re not expecting to turn into a major mystery. Couple that with a couple of inexperienced actors in there somewhere and you have a perfect storm.
    As I think I’ve ranted previously this is one of the reasons I struggle with too many ideas of conspiracy or cover up. We need to simultaneously believe that there were puppet masters very good at covering up after themselves, but stupid enough to keep facts leaking out that only bring attention to the case. And while I’ll accept if it’s not the authorties pulling the string but some ‘bad guys’, you still have to question their competence if they’ve left us the bread crumbs subscribers to some of those theories follow….

  434. milongal on September 17, 2020 at 10:20 pm said:

    @JS: Charlie Allen presumably no relation to the proprietor at the Broadway – William Allen?

  435. Fair enough. How about we move onto the box of matches. Not only didn’t Moss find any, he gave a newspaper interview to that effect.

  436. John Sanders … I repeat, back it up, mate.

  437. john sanders on September 17, 2020 at 10:47 pm said:

    milongal: Seems somewhat ambiguous I know, but whilst witness Lyons was not able to identify identify the man by his face or clothing, he was nevertheless quite certain in his belief that the evening man and the morning man were one and the same….Speaking of clothes, I note that friend Cramer has posted photos of Bob Wake whom I understand will now take a prominant role his big final drive to the who done it line. Pic on the right taken from a surveillance file is certainly Big Bob, the guy with him a young Doug McLellan (sic). Shot on the left also identified as Wake seems suspiciously dated as for the attire which to me looks 1920s, worn by a man of an age too old to be him at that time, besides Robert Frederick Bird Wake was a rather dapper dresser.

  438. john sanders on September 17, 2020 at 11:23 pm said:

    Tamara: I seem to recall sometime before the our comrade uncle’s uplifting from his temporary resting place off Vallegrande airstrip (circunvalacion 2do Ant.), grave robbers made a dig and found his pipe tobacco & pouch intact. An imperialist CIA puppet pilot had apparently souvineered the great patriot’s beloved briar pipe and Zippo at the time of his martyredom.

  439. пожалуйста on September 18, 2020 at 7:44 am said:

    Milongal expresses eloquently what others have also tried to say here and elsewhere too. I have always been suspicious of the ‘telling detail’ and ‘gotcha’, such as the striped trousers. There likely won’t be a Sherlock Holmes/Columbo solution to this one, however hard certain serious investigators on evidence based blogs want that to be true.

    Pete makes good observations around the long timelines in the initial investigation, but it’s hard to judge if these are even unusual for the time, let alone indicative of letting a cover up happen. And much of it seems to depend on the scant available record. The huge gap here are the police files, supposedly destroyed decades ago. It seems impossible to accurately reconstruct the investigation so as to be able to judge it. We don’t know what we don’t know. The constable, for example, told the inquest that he “made it his business” to search the body. But then he would say that, wouldn’t he. If there’s a cover up at work, isn’t it most likely to be covering up plod’s own shortcomings?

    And it’s easy to cry “spies!” whenever there’s something unsolved or in some way mysterious. The Isdal Woman? Spies! Because missiles. Or maybe art theft. Or IRA weapons deals. Or because Germany. Peter Bergmann? Spies! Because not on CCTV. But really it’s spies because otherwise: ordinary.

    Remember just how crap “spies” and “assassins” actually are in the field. Litvinenko, Skripal and Nawalny as recent examples. Wetwork is a messy business, never elegant, never in the shadows.

  440. john sanders on September 18, 2020 at 12:20 pm said:

    milongal: In re yours of 16 inst…BS/TS @ Old Codes New Codes & Concealment of 17/9/17 introduces accidental newcomer Russian Kate with news of Sister Jessie Read Harkness bn.1900, died 1985 Balaklava SA aboard SS Moldovia on her way to Spain in 1936 for service with the nationalists (commies). When I exposed the attempt to connect her with SM through an accessory Miss MM said informant pannicked and left town, though our usual suspects carried on their “Where’s Kate gone GC?”. “Dunno PB maybe the KGB got her!”. Truth being the co conspirator had departed for the Dominion in total embarrassment about being caught out. The other local lass was Jessica Moir Thomson nee McFarlane bn. 1918, dec. ’85? from Port Lincoln who settled with her infant son in Glenelg when husband George died at Gladstone SA in ’41. The name connections and location proximity to the other George & Jessie could have been used as a decoy I guess but????. You will not be surprisec that a much younger Pavel Fedosimov some how gets himself caught up in the Spanish civil war with the old nursing Sister from memory. Hope that clears me of any devious doings.

  441. john sanders on September 18, 2020 at 1:21 pm said:

    Heaven help me I’m getting to be as bad on names as some others I bitch about. Jessie Muir Thomson 1918/94; I think her daughter’s name was Janice or Pamela and she lived just a few streets back from 91A Moseley.

  442. Boris: you’re the rational one …. how do you explain the appearance of a box of matches, and what inferences can you draw from same?

    … still waiting, Sanders, treat the back up challenge as a small test of your credibility, ok?

  443. john sanders on September 18, 2020 at 10:23 pm said:

    Milongal: Two Allen’s don’t seem to be keyed alike; Broadway Allen being from the English immigrant monied William Allen of the counties clan and poor Charley probably convict stock like other Allens up Maitland way whom I notice managed to later serve in France. Tom’s partner wasn’t on of them so without more detail I didnt trace him.

  444. john sanders on September 18, 2020 at 10:45 pm said:

    Peteb: It’s your funeral MATE…and for anyone else hanging out for answers, go on over to ‘the Ultimate SM’ site and dial back to dusty’s post of 25/2/20 which refers to the contents of a response from the kind Salvo people which was a surprise considering the long delay. It seems to set straight their knowledge of a child who was almost certainly on their books named Jessie Ellen Harkness which they could not confirm because of a living relative (Kate) disclosure policy….Also note a reply from ‘PETEB’ one hour and twenty minutes later which made some brief mention of Prosper having been a fence which seemed out of place but totally consistant.

  445. john sanders on September 18, 2020 at 11:00 pm said:

    Peteb: Fair enough; guess It’s not worth considering that the matchbox floated off along with SM’s felt hat around high tide at 4.45am. Do you recall reading a trove article about a hat and box of matches having washed up on the beach at Kingston, Kangaroo Island? ….Neither do I Mate!.

  446. john sanders on September 19, 2020 at 8:17 am said:

    Peteb: A small test of my credibility, which might be too much of a test for thee unassisted, would be to check out the likes of Newcastle Herald, Maitland Murcury Singleton Argus or SMH for Thomas Lawson Harkness in banktuptcy to petitioner General Electric Co. I found three entries, but there must be others and also notice of an auction with a list of electrical equipment, all in said name. Of course your research team may find a thousand other electricians with that handle in greater Newcastle circa 1926 MATE but I think you’ll luck out as usual…Now SM’s second watering hole and pastie to die for if you please. PS. Tom was a linesman by trade.

  447. john sanders on September 19, 2020 at 9:06 am said:

    Peteb: In re your new quest for answers; unfortunately both the first question and the very last, are the least likely to draw any positive responses. Reason being that ex swab Gordon Strapp’s mistaken stripes and very junior acting detective Sgt. R L Lean’s short box of Bymay matches have well and truly run their race. Why not take my advice from four years back and go for broke on Big Bob Wake; Afterall you’ve got the text book and Gordon only has his ‘cheshire cat’ which is jack squat.

  448. Milongal .. according to Lyon’s deposition, the fellow lying on the beach was a only yard away from the bottom of the steps, and given that Strapps first observed him from that distance, and in good light, do you still think he was mistaken?

  449. Tamara Bunke on September 19, 2020 at 2:00 pm said:

    @Sanders… did those grave robbers happen to find a box of matches?

  450. john sanders on September 19, 2020 at 11:01 pm said:

    Tamara: There was some mention of ‘Federales’ but I naturally thought they were back up for the final sweep. If they had meant Federal matches (ave. contents 60) that would make sense also, but you would have had some idea, surely?.

  451. john sanders on September 19, 2020 at 11:26 pm said:

    Peteb: Milongal isn’t likely to fall for your arm twisting. Strapps and Olive were never closer to the body than 10 yards and if we think he be misunderstood, he repeats it, just for slow witted types that always need reminding…Of course the statement taking plod might have got the distance wrong, similarly the striped duds which of ciurse were a diagonal fleck, I shd say.

  452. john sanders on September 20, 2020 at 11:33 am said:

    So our deceptive friend Peteb in his misleading latest speel describes young Strapps as being CURIOUS does he?. Could have fooled us who have digested the details a little more closely, especially in light of the witness telling his future wife Olive not to be such a sticky beak in her own desire to check the man out for signs of his apparent afflicion or if inderd he might even be dead as she alluded to.

  453. john sanders on September 20, 2020 at 1:23 pm said:

    Still you’ve got to give it to the man. Only two advances made over the last 70 years according to our man Peteb; always prepared to give credit where such is due to Cramer’s ‘I’m a believer’ letter Q disclosure on micro writing then also from 20015 and equally enlightning, Byron Deveson’s modest observation of a certain witness’ spurious claim of seeing the evening live beach body in Striped trousers contrary to police findings. If only our poor bonzo had have found these clues first he’d be even more insufferable in pointing out the limitations of Feltus, Abbott and Pelling’s Voynich team.
    “.

  454. milongal on September 20, 2020 at 11:38 pm said:

    @Pete: As with many things, I really don’t know what to think. I guess while I agree it’s important to explore inconsistencies in any accounts, I wouldn’t necessarily assume any particular detail (especially coming from plebs who aren’t necessarily the world’s greatest witnesses). Consider why the two young couple went to watch the sunset. I’d imagine that the pants of the sleepy dude on the beach weren’t exactly at the forefront of their mind.

    That said, I’ve never necessarily been entirely comfortable with the man that evening being SM – or at least, if it was him, then time of death seems puzzling (especially given the partially digested food in the belly). I also tend to agree with JS that the tide that night likely came up to the rocks – as I think tides in that area often do, and we know there was a king tide that night…..so no mention of dampness on the body and/or salt staining on the clothes suggests the body hadn’t been there overnight…..but that’s as speculative as anything else.

    I’m hoping to get back to Adelaide soon, and specifically have a wander down Somerton way and maybe take some happy snaps.

  455. Name: Cyril John Wilson
    Death Registration Year: 1985
    Death Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
    Father: John Mangnosan
    Mother Maiden Name: Wilson
    Reference Number: 5246

  456. Name: Cyril John Wilson
    Birth Year: abt 1906
    Age: 79
    Death Place: Sqam, Victoria
    Father’s Name: John Mangnosan
    Mother’s Name: Caroline Ida
    Registration Year: 1985
    Registration Place: Victoria
    Registration Number: 05246

  457. john sanders on September 21, 2020 at 4:09 am said:

    Three posts to go for Gordon by his own reckoning and he’s making every post a winner, leaving we also rans floundering in his ‘Bob Wake’ just as our kindly S.A. Grandstand Bookies had predicted. Unless of course a certain allerted stalker of our sad aquaintance can sneak from the pack and flog his seemingly long dead ‘horse in striped pajamas’ over the line to win the Somerton handicap…which alas would be bitter cup and last post for friend Cramer. Got a match anyone?.

  458. john sanders on September 21, 2020 at 6:40 am said:

    Peteb: We’re told that the ‘shd’ word, as attributed to Strapps’ paraphrased ‘I shd say…..’ description of the brown fake Stamina duds, may instead have been an Arabic derogatory acronystic term for ‘shu hada’ or ‘go to the devil’, as opposed to recent quick on line era jargon for ‘should’ which I have always had doubts about.

    Anyhow check it out MATE and you might have to reconsider our young ex naval rating’s intended meaning. A word of caution, If invited into a Dar el Harb one shd avoid using the word in full for it is also used by uncouth Bedouin folk to invite an alternate use for the oral cavity exterior protrusions other than for sucking sorbet.

  459. Let me be the first to congratulate you, Johnno mate, as being Nick Pelling’s official spokesman for matters that pertain to the Somerton Man Mystery. A tough job but one you are well equipped for … I ‘m certain there are many others like me who just cannot get enough of your witticisms and depth of knowledge.
    And well done, Dome, you certainly can pick them, and my sincere congratulations again on a sterling set of visitor numbers.

  460. john sanders on September 21, 2020 at 8:21 am said:

    Misca: Sqam is not a Victorian place name. The letters SQAM happen to be a Latin legalistic acronym meaning ‘assumption of death’ which has been a sticking point for me since your last advice on this man’s life and family details similar to that kindly repeated above. In this case there happened to be two people of the same name and suburb in Melbourne from memory and I worry that their reported physical passing in 1985 and cemetery records of scattered ashes etc. may have been an honest online stuffup as is so common. In essence, for me to follow up and close the man out as a person of interest, could you advise on your source’s Sqam derivation. PS. I note no mention of Grace Olga Wilson nee McAlpine, born 1908 died 1977, the subject’s recorded legal spouse in your search details.

  461. john sanders on September 21, 2020 at 8:41 am said:

    Peteb: Pretty captions, logos and such to illustrate possible flawed assertions on your part, whether deliberate or not, are not going to make the grade with folks who know the details of this case at least as well as you. Take for instance your claim that Leane collected some items from the Keane suitcase to set up for press photos back at the office are somewhat spurious . Likewise I can’t seem to recall mention of his ever having visited with your ‘give us a call Paul’ friend Lawson or his customer at the mortuary. I’ll see if I can confirm either if the above and get back to you MATE.

  462. john sanders on September 21, 2020 at 12:07 pm said:

    Lucky seven for some, but not for Peteb which equates to his latest Tomsbytwo travesty, comprised of Detective Leane’s busy agenda of completed tasks, six of which were undertaken by others prior to his involvement almost six weeks into the investigation. The other relates to his days attending the West Terrace morgue to supervise Paul Lawson’s work and dress the body, there being no record of his ever going near the place. Of course there is mention of him in Paul’s work diary, to wit, he and others inspecting the bust/cast but that would have taken place either at the museum or upon delivery at CIB headquarters on the day after SM’s funeral. As for the famous Barbour threads and T. Keane white? tie shot with the perported brotherhood backing, I haven’t quite got to the bottom of its source yet, but rest assured I will.

  463. You know, mate, it’s only just occurred to the committee that you are the Somerton Man’s equivalent of Donald Trump. Like the President of the United States you don’t have problem in making up fake news, and of course here at Cipher Mysteries you have a host and an audience only too willing to accept it. Otherwise they would raise an argument or two against your various notions.

    However one problem that might arise for your ever obliging host is that what you write here might one day be attributed to him in an indirect way. As an example, it is almost impossible to disassociate Fox News from President Trump. They are one and the same.

    Cipher Mysteries and John Sanders. Nick Pelling and John Sanders!! A formidable team, don’t you think?
    Awesome.

    Still, there’s got to be a home for blokes such as yourself and I’m only too happy to boost a further series of your comments here at Cipher M … so let’s see how many this post spawns, there’s only room for about a dozen on the side-bar, but that shouldn’t be a problem for you old sport.

    Nobody there seems to mind.

  464. john sanders on September 22, 2020 at 3:19 am said:

    Thank’s Gordon for kind advice on Paul Lawson’s hospitalision for what will hopefully be a short stay and of course our best wished for a speedy recovery.

    Paul in his interview with Stuart Littlemore relating to the various people who came to see his completed bust. In a part not shown on the ‘Inside Story’ TV show, remembering he was a much younger (57) man at the time, Paul had been rather emphatic that the Identity attempts were were all by people of the subject’s own age group, not younger. Thirty years on and then in his 90’s a more mature Paul Lawson wasn’t so discerning re ages when he did his demonstration tape of an out of place young woman’s reaction to seeing the bust back in July ’49.

    The 1978 interview did not include anything to do with a 27 year old female whom the interviewee had presumably forgotten was shown the bust. Such a mistake on Paul’s part might well have been ripe for plunder by a shrewd lawyer the likes of Littlemore, but in the end he choose not to call his man out, probably due to a perceived edginess and for favour of recording more important aspects which had not yet been raised. Stuart was still of the mistaken belief at the time that nurse Jestyn had positively identified Alf Boxall from the bust (inside story) and prefered to work on that perhaps.

  465. john sanders on September 22, 2020 at 5:06 am said:

    milongal: Sorry to find it necessary to negatively intercede on your late most compromising position as to the possibility of a body exchange during the night. I’m quite certain that Constable Moss, giving evidence at the inquest, was most emphatic in his assessment that the beach body’s state apart from the obvious, being that “It was cold, stiff and damp” or words to that effect from memory.

  466. john sanders on September 22, 2020 at 7:19 am said:

    Peteb: Then you’d be a Biden man no doubt and in so saying, a most devout Don Lemon CNN arse lickin rigger-in-the woodpile to boot. But politics aside, I’m not a fan of either man though most anxious nonetheless for word on any fake news at my humble undertaking in order to acknowledge and own it if applicable. That being so, I don’t hear any firm rebuttals to my latest list of your own outragous and foolish blunders. Here’s another sample to make eight on the same thread, which although nowhere near your worst will suffice to make my day…The dark brown flecked Wilson strides with the fake Stamina label, likely worn by the man in the evening and morning when found, were already subject of inquiries by Russell St. CIB a whole month before Det. Acting Sgt. Leane was even on the scene MATE.

  467. Love it, mate, you should be in the mushroom business.

  468. john sanders on September 22, 2020 at 10:13 am said:

    I can only do fungi and toadstools if that works for you MATE.

  469. There is a marriage record:

    Name: Grace Olga McAlpine
    Gender: Female
    Marriage Registration Year: 1930
    Marriage Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
    Spouse: Cyril Jno Wilson
    Reference Number: 8293

    There is also an electoral roll (1977) for her showing her living in Oakleigh, Henty, Victoria, Australia (as a house domestic at 20 Best St.). Cyrl listed as a “driver” is on the same electoral roll at the same address.

    There is also a Wills and Probate Record for him as follows:

    Name: Cyril John Wilson
    Death Date: 6 Feb 1985
    Death Place: Oakleigh
    Occupation: Rtd Truck Driver
    Grant Date: 13 Mar 1985
    Grant: P

    I realize that Squam is not a Victorian place name. I simply did a cut and paste of what appears on ancestry. Sometimes, transcribers have difficulty reading original documents and simply go with what they think it looks like. I have seen similar errors before and often correct them through ancestry when I can.

  470. There is another Cyril John Wilson (born 6 Oct 1911 – Kurrajong , NSW). He married Audrey Irwin in Sidney on 16 January 1940. She petitioned for divorce in 1946. He died in 1980 Katoomba, NSW. He can be found on Trove as he was regularly finding himself in trouble for speeding, theft and assault in and around the Richmond area. His parents were Timothy Wilson (1853-1922) and Mary Jane Mahoney (1879-1956).

    Just to add to all the excitement, in 1939, a Lorna Clarissa Wilson (formerly Shepherd) petitioned for divorce from a Cyril John Wilson. Their marriage (probably bigamous) was in April 1934 in Penrith. Given that Cyril John Wilson (1911) was living in Penrith from 1934 – 1939, I would take a guess that he is the fellow who originally married Lorna.

  471. Just realized I messed up the dates and unnecessarily accused our second Cyril John Wilson (1911) of bigamy. The dates imply that he was first married to Lorna Clarissa, divorced and then married Audrey. Apologies all around.

  472. john sanders on September 22, 2020 at 10:46 pm said:

    Misca: Many thanks for your efforts, much appreciated as usual.

  473. john sanders on September 23, 2020 at 4:53 am said:

    The Cyril John Wilson of Gembrook Vic. who was ticketed for speeding on his motor bike in Dandenong on 1/3/25 is not likely to have been my Cyril or any of those others mentioned, which gives rise to the possibilty of mistaken identities with regards death and probate records. I guess Grace’s place of abode Prahran on her demise while worth noting, is likely not all that significant in light of the death year spread of seven + years.

  474. john sanders on September 24, 2020 at 7:03 am said:

    Boris: For once I’m in agreement with Peteb, in that long retired Sen. Sgt. R.L.L. Leane was merely taking the piss out of the vulnerable young upstart ambulance chaser Stuart Wagstaff . His retort when asked about recollection of finding a Tamam Shud slip on yon body ie., “yeah it was in his coat pocket”, followed up by the snigger tipped curare spears, hypodermic syringe and outrageous claim to effect that, “They’re all still down in the place” (evidence locker) would have been cause for bringing down the house in any TV comedy clip….Of course you’ll have heard that the great man died at Victor Harbor golf course on 29/6/79, barely a year after the interview, shooting for an eagle on the 440 yd. par four 13th hole. His life long pal and former partner in crime Len Brown conceded the point and marked the boss’s card accordingly in very very tiny writing as was his old habit in the job.

  475. Tamara Bunke on September 24, 2020 at 12:03 pm said:

    What chance did any of us ever have? Or even SAPOL? When over on TS/BS it turns out everyone’s favourite wrestler-cum-gala-SM-impersonator transpires to be the hero of the piece, having sneakily kept back some head hair from those halcyon ’49 pre-DNA days. Amazing prescience… he should ask Crick & Co. to return their Nobel gong to its rightful owner.

    And there’s more! Our one-man CSI Adelaide had the stuff independently tested, it seems, by someone with a whole lotta lab, but perhaps very little curiosity (“Now, Paul: exactly WHERE – and WHO – did you get these poisoned and irradiated locks from, old chap”?).

    You couldn’t make it up.

  476. Tamara Bunke on September 24, 2020 at 12:03 pm said:

    What chance did any of us ever have? Or even SAPOL? When over on TS/BS it turns out everyone’s favourite wrestler-cum-gala-SM-impersonator transpires to be the hero of the piece, having sneakily kept back some head hair from those halcyon ’49 pre-DNA days. Amazing prescience… he should ask Crick & Co. to return their Nobel gong to its rightful owner.

    And there’s more! Our one-man CSI Adelaide had the stuff independently tested, it seems, by someone with a whole lotta lab, but perhaps very little curiosity (“Now, Paul: exactly WHERE – and WHO – did you get these poisoned and irradiated locks from, old chap”?).

    You couldn’t make it up.

  477. john sanders on September 24, 2020 at 1:06 pm said:

    Tamara: How could you dare to doubt the word of two original members of the Inner Sactimonious club, one presently ailing, of concocting such co-conspitatorial evidence to put self and pelf before truth and justice to promote Pavel Fedosimov the saddle nosed spy over all other non viable contenders for the role of Somerton Man. What evidence do you have to refute such a plausable story that has been at the forefront of discovery since one of Gordon Cramer’s most ardent and undenypiably honourable ferrets first interviewed the ever canney Paul Lawson in 2017. What hath God rort (sic) prey (sic) tell.

  478. john sanders on September 25, 2020 at 11:41 am said:

    Tamara: A long time between drinks for Big Tootie to come back on line with some news, but good news in the form of Rejected tapatalk’s convenient link in to the Kangaroo Island ferry service timetable that just happens to co-incide with Mr. Cramer’s latest blurb, hot off the dingla from a much improved Paul Lawson. This of course concerning Pavel Fedosimov’s prospective trip over to the mainland for his appointment with big Bob Wake and his CIS hoons on Somerton Beach. Can’t wait for the finale, can you comrade?.

  479. Tamara Bunke on September 25, 2020 at 7:35 pm said:

    Sanders, all: I’m also very interested to learn what technique was used to boil the inside of the Somerton Man’s skull in situ. The mind frankly boggles.

    Never has the phrase “go boil your head” seemed more apt.

  480. John / Tamara: all I feel when reading Paul Lawson’s recent comments is a deep sadness. What else is there to say?

  481. Tamara Bunke on September 25, 2020 at 8:05 pm said:

    Nick, it’s not Paul’s comments that worry me, personally. In fact, we don’t even know if they are his comments. We certainly don’t know how they were obtained. That notwithstanding, it’s the use to which others are putting these comments that concerns me.

    Some people out there might need to take a long, hard look at themselves.

  482. Tamara Bunke: there are websites where everything is carefully checked (but are perhaps a bit dry for some readers). There are websites that aim to provoke thought and discussion (but perhaps get caught up in the provoking bit). And there are websites that just make stuff up, week in and week out, and where you’d need to hire an army of forensic detectives to find even a single sentence that’s true.

    Doubtless you have your own opinions on this too.

  483. Provoke?

  484. john sanders on September 25, 2020 at 10:53 pm said:

    It seems of late, the former conduit between Paul and Cramer, has been cast aside for favour of more direct and reliable coms with his top informant. Apart from some minor doubts as to the quality of evidence being touted on his blog, I’m worried that these long telephone conversations, all instigated by Paul, must be a drain on his miserly pension payments. This only compounded by the news that Peteb is also now on the list for the old codger’s apparent need to impart long kept secret case facts through expensive trunk calls; unless of course the latter’s post reports of these are simply part of his well known plagiaristic forays into his former best pal’s exclusuve espionage domain .

  485. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 1:52 am said:

    Peteb: Don’t know about Barry Traish, but the only Big ‘T’ I’m aware of is still firmly ensconced in his White House, to remain so unless the other crooked prospective tenant doesn’t dice his black power mask, cease making stuttered platitudes to any as yet uncommitted voters and give them some hope for the future.

  486. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 3:09 am said:

    The BS/TS helpful map, second of his pretty travel brochures, this one allowing us imbiciles to track the exact route taken by tour leader comrade Pavel Fedosimov on his land/sea adventure to Kangaroo Island safe house. Strontium 90 is a by product of nuclear fission ie. via atomic explosion after which contamination is usually a consequence of resultant fallout. Somerton Man’s hair contained residue of 90 according to latest news reported directly by Paul Lawson, which if reliable means that exposure could only have come about through his near proximity to a nuclear bomb blast. Biggest problem with Gordon Cramer’s latest bungle (+map) is that it doesn’t include the US Bikini Island zone which from 1946 until ’49 was the only above ground atomic test site in existance, excluding possibly White Sands NM which would still be top secret. Most of us will be aware that the USSR’s very first reported AG test was not until their ‘Big Bolshie Boy’ bang on 29/8/49 at their experimental site in modern day Kazakhstan. Perhaps Gordon Framer might care to rectify his Bikini oversight by inserting a tiny dot for in the remot area of sea off micronesia so as not to spoil his well meaning, allbeit totally useless chart.

  487. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 5:56 am said:

    I Don’t quite understand Peteb’s latest syrupy story line. At first bluff it appears to do with Ron Searl’s wartime sketches and his choice of pencils, then deviates to wards Gerry Feltus and his P76 Leyland which I know came out in ’73 when he made detective, same time as another new suit in Sydney @JS. Alf Boxall also gets a mention along with some convalescing Changi prisoner, taking advantage of a certain young RNSH bedpan nurse at Clifton Gardens hotel with rooms by the hour after 6pm. I wonder if an 86 Sqn. Flt. Lieut. name of uncle Colin was at the wheel of that converted Hudson bomber seen dropping Sci-ops messages to the ex POWs, ie. ‘Come home lads war’s over & don’t forget the duty free in Singas’… Nice Peteb.

  488. Tamara Bunke on September 26, 2020 at 11:13 am said:

    Pete, it seems to me that you have a twinkle in your eye much like Che’s. And he liked to provoke things too.

  489. Six pencils, Tamara, SIX !! WTF is going on there?

  490. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 1:39 pm said:

    Tamara: And the CIA filth up an off with uncle Che’s Tanganyika Meerschaum pipe, as like swine probably did with a very similar one that our poor dead poet Joseph Saul Haim Marshall, was himself prepared to die for…’Just between you and I’.

  491. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 1:56 pm said:

    Big thanks to Gordon for his post date inclusion of the Marshalls on his outward bound travel map; and I wouldn’t be surprised if Guinea Airways had a limited VIP evacuatiin flight for concerned Bikini island chiefs about the time of the the big bang.

  492. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 3:08 pm said:

    Alf Boxall was never admitted to RNSH during his service career.
    RNSH was civilian and never used for convalescing ex POWs period.
    Alf Boxall thought that his ROK French army nurse was twenty, no older.
    Tom Musgrave backed up Boxall’s story to the letter thirty years later.
    Tom’s Mrs. Lived close to Suzie Boxall so Alf’s address was well known.
    In ’46 Alf was mostly at sea in the islands. What chance of a letter to Jess?.
    Jessica Harkness’ name was never found at RNSH despite contrary claims.
    Jess wanting discretion, lied about wartime military service under an alias.
    Sapol enabled their informant’s secrecy by supporting the bogus RNSH line.

  493. John Sanders: you keep claiming that there’s nothing connecting Jessie Harkness to RNSH, but p.158 (in Appendix D) of Margaret Rice’s (1988) “The Close of an Era: A History of Nursing at the Royal North Shore Hospital, 1887-1987” lists “Harkness, Jessie E.” as having graduated from the RNSH’s School of Nursing in 1946:

    http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/tamanshud/appendix_D_graduates.pdf

    So… this may not be your finest moment. :-/

  494. john sanders on September 26, 2020 at 10:59 pm said:

    Nick: First time I’ve ever seen the graduation paper and would like to know when and how it came to light. So many SM stalwarts over the years denied there being any such confirmation including Abbott and co. from which I took my lead. You’ll check back through many mentions of negative connotation in CM eg. your own venture into the world of Jestyn as Mrs. Willem Styn, which you’ll be first to agree
    Was not one of your better moments, what?.

  495. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 12:02 am said:

    Nick: I suspect that you may have got the wrong Harkness in your confirmation bias quest. Your mistake is perhaps excusable in that Jessie E. and Jessica E. May sound similar to some but not to the naming parents. I recall a Harkness living at Clifton gardens of all places which I thought likely to be Alf Boxall’s young army nurse. Turns out she was army but not a nurse and was a daughter of the NSW Premier’s private secretary. Anyone can make simple mistakes Nick but you’ll mind that it is certainly a caution against jumping to false conclusions. Our Jo is Jessica not Jessie as per the ’46 graduation notice and this is clearly evident in her Prov. Estate notice and on her grave, both of 2007.

  496. John Sanders: you claim that the Royal North Shore Hospital was never used for convalescing ex POWs period. Have you taken into consideration the thousands of liberated and demobbed POWs who suffered ongoing illnesses – some of whom lived in Sydney?
    Are you saying they were denied treatment at the RNS?

  497. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 3:49 am said:

    Anyone not afflicted with uncurable information bias syndrome might now like to ponder the ramifications of the almost certain pre conceived contingency planning behind the RNSH Jessie E. Harkness fake trail ruse. A nice one played on the cops and news hounds and latter day sloths alike all having been made easy targets for jessica’s fake RNSH nursing credentials claim, backed by a similarly named 1946 graduate which would pass muster if checked and which still makes some of us look rather foolish.

  498. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 4:09 am said:

    ….Confirmation of information bias to be precise.

  499. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 6:49 am said:

    It seems that Len Brown made the best of his police career of forty years and rising to the dizzy heights of Detective Superintendent would be considered metioric when you compared with the likes of his former partner R.L. Leane and historical fiction writer G. Feltus, neither òf whom got above Snr. Sergeant after their forty years of grafting in the Adelaide dens of morbidity, murder and mayhem. Browny was also the man that almost gave the game away in 1978 just prior to retirement, when he dropped the clanger about a suitcase “…..that we found in the ‘railway refreshment’ uh uh cloakroom”, then words to the effect that witnesses Gordon & Olive were parked in a car at Somerton, not to mention police calling X3239 and Sister Thomson answering. Numerous other interesting snippets that obviously have been diced for favour of a better story line can be found in the top detective’s record of interview. I’m sure that the fifty that he took for the appearance would have ensured a propensity to be generally truthful with Littlemore. So I’m happy with the alternate and more realistic refreshment room deal, with suitcase later lodged securely in the cloakroom and documented without issue of collection stub of course.

  500. John Sanders: it was published in 1988, back when we all had hair and knew basically nothing about the Somerton Man.

  501. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 9:31 am said:

    Yes Peteb, I can make the claim because it is true and varifiable. At war’s end 113 repatriation hospital was the biggest in the southern hemisphere followed closely by 116 in Melbourne and whatsmore these centres swallowed up all the returning POWs or put them into special trauma care facilities without need to swamp the general civilian hospitals with wounded diggers, nut cases and mallingerers which would have overburdoned the system and created medical mayhem. Additional convalescent units were also available throughout Australia and as you’d be aware from regular recent contact, Paul Lawson worked at one in the top end until ’46. Alf Boxall would certainly not have gotten any treatment at RNSH in 1945 before his departure for the islands nor upon his return or later, being an eligible returned man entitled free treatment at Concord Repat. Hospital. Hope I’ve been helpful.

  502. Tamara Bunke on September 27, 2020 at 10:19 am said:

    It’s a secondary source, Nick 😉

    Cramer will assimilate it into his “litter” theory imminently.

    “[…] Muddying pools, poisoning wells maybe. […] Pulling the rug out.”, as Percy Alleline put it.

  503. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 11:04 am said:

    Perhaps you knew nothing in 88 Nick; I knew flamming all, having based my SM knowledge on a couple of lectures at the Manly Police College and Manly Vale Hotel given by ex Sapol Det. Errol Canney in 73/74, by then a Compol Super. and full of great stories from his past including his partnership with ‘Verbal’ Kelly, Byron’s alltime favorite copper. I’ve also still got my hair thanks to Grecian.

  504. John Sanders: I’m pleased to hear that your hair is as intact as your hopes for solving this cold case. Though possibly both are more coloured than is entirely necessary. :-p

    Back in 1988, what was publicly known about the case would (in my opinion) have been able to fit on the back of envelope (or perhaps a particularly small Rubaiyat).

  505. If I had a dog that yapped as much as you do, John Sanders, I’d sell him to one of the Casino second-hand car yards … chuck them a bone and they’ll bark all night.

    And to put this into context .. it’s a little known fact that Jessica Harkness had a small poodle named Jake that she kept until 1946 before giving it away to a colleague named Judith Iscamabob, a fellow nurse who left Australia in 1953 to follow the zionist path where unfortunately she died within sight of the pyramids after falling off the lead camel of a string led by Abudazziz Abudaazij of Ethopia, whose father led the southern Tripoli Brigade in a battle against the infidel led secessionists wherein he earned the medal of Supreme Accomplishment for attempting to castrate one of the camels that were proving useful in Libya’s defence of it’s northern African borders.
    Man, this is so easy I might just make a habit of it.

    Hey Tamara … how you doin?

  506. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 12:13 pm said:

    Absolutely nothing was going down connecting the nurse or the lieutenant to any part of the police investigation beyond Mrs. Thomson’s two days of glory, but which fizzled with Alf Boxall turning up alive and well, to the best of my memory. Perhaps truth of the matter may be gauged from nothing coming of the 1958 inquest in which police had nothing new to offer. That only changed about the time of the ’78 doco which I never saw, but in which the postie got going about ’72 with his press exclusive in the Mirror, then it carried over from there to Munro’s Inside story deal. Even my ‘Mystery of the Sands’ book chapter title of 2006 lays out the investigation pretty well with nothing but the known facts, followed by the Sapol Hue & Cry article which claimed no knowledge of our two main characters.

  507. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 1:20 pm said:

    Nick: The only colours I’m interested in are primary colours if you get my drift. By the way, as Mr. Lawson so elequently interjected to put Stuart on notice “you’re on tender ground” to suggest otherwise. My quest is primarily to identify SM, how he died whither and whence. I’ll leave the accomanying not factual extras to those more concerned with hearsay, inuendo and self serving hyperbole if you please.

  508. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 2:12 pm said:

    Some kind soul might like to throw old Bonzo a bone. Poor dog doesn’t seem to know which way is home.

  509. Have you ever searched for a Jessie E Harkness? I did. I only found two mentions of her. I searched for her with the objective of proving that she wasn’t our Jessica. I could not.

    The first place she appears is in the Appendix – Graduates of the school of Nursing. There, she appears in the 1946 graduation year as “Harkness, Jessie E”.

    The second place I found her was in a 1943 electoral roll. There she appears as:

    Name: Jessie Ellen Harkness
    Gender: Female
    Electoral Date: 1943
    Electoral Place: Artarmon, North Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

    So we now have a Jessie ELLEN. If one views the listing for her, it says:

    “Harkness, Jessie Ellen, R.N.S. Hospital, St. Leonard’s, nurse F”

  510. milongal on September 27, 2020 at 10:54 pm said:

    @JS re Brown and the refreshing cloakroom….

    Pretty sure that’s more to do with his knowledge of the railway station than any sort of slip up. AFAIK (happy to be corrected), the Cloak Room used to be on the right hand side as you come down the ramp from North Tce (behind what was Donut King in the 90s, but not sure what it is now). Later I think that area was converted to a refreshments area (and the area on the opposite side of the ramp was toilets). At different times that has shifted around, and later again I think TransAdelaide had offices (or at least Lost Property) in there (before I think most of there stuff moved to Roma Mitchell House, and their operations eventually onto the station concourse itself.

    So to me that sort of slip up could be more indicative of the mind mixing up 1970’s railway station vs 1940s railway station.

  511. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 11:09 pm said:

    Just say my name was Nicholas, but generally known by its short form Nick. But of course when it comes down to officizl documents, passport, driving licence or voting registrar &c., of my birth registration long form of Nicholas would take preceidence as a legal identity. I’d say that when Jessie Ellen Harkness went to vote and when her RNSH registration was recorded, she went by the name on her birth certificate which is unlikely to have been Jessica for mine. I’ll cheerfully stand corrected.

  512. john sanders on September 27, 2020 at 11:48 pm said:

    Back to those darned sox Nick ho hum. Well perhaps the first list of suitcase contents failed to record any simply due to oversight and the mistake was not picked up. I have seen a list on a rather impressive pre Feltus SM site (Crypto????) where three pairs were recorded so where did that come from. We can also see amongst the scattered belongings a more recent pic of a neatly folded pair that the majority of punters might insist were taken off our SM post mortem. Who would be so fussy with sox coming off dead man’s feet I’d submit as a counter, and by the way in the days before plastic ziplocks, sox came in handy to keep small items such as jewellry, cuff links and collar studs and coins &c., from going astray.

  513. milongal on September 28, 2020 at 2:58 am said:

    All this talk of Harkness raises a thought…..
    Surely he who has married himself into the case should have access to her Graduate Certificate (or whatever the qualification would be). Of course, not everyone proudly keeps their qualifications, many do proudly display their quals either in an office or at home – so wouldn’t it be worth digging through her belongings? Absence of such a certificate doesn’t prove anything, but presence of one would immediately either resolve or disprove whether Jessie is Jessica.

    NB: I tend to go by a shortened version of my name (let’s say “Mil” for now if “Milongal” were my real monicker) in almost everything I do, yet every qualification certificate I have (and even relatively minor ones) tend to my name based on my enrolment, originally based on my formal id (usually drivers licence and/or birth certificate, sometimes passport). As I recall, all my employers have always had my “correct” name on record, and while they would refer to me by nickname in conversations, any paperwork from them would always show my correct full name (granted I’m a generation or 2 later than those times, but in my experience it’s difficult to use a pseudonym in studies etc – so to me “Jessie” suggests “Jessie” not “Jessica” when it’s in a graduation list that (presumably) was taken from an official listing….

  514. john sanders on September 28, 2020 at 3:34 am said:

    Potentially gamechanging news courtesy of ace researcher Peteb, now on target for discovery of an intelligence office secreted somewhere within that huge military sprawl on Sydney’s northern shore called Georges Head. Well spotted Bonzo and as you say just around the corner from Chowder Bay and Alf Boxall’s domain. Other nearby places of most interest to SM sportsfans, Ashton Park fake suicide drop, RNSH & nurses rendezvous garden, then Neutral Bay, Castle Crag and Mosman for the estates of Messrs.Thomson, Hendon and Wake to name just three of our numerous co-conspirators, all so cosily and conveniently ensconsed for clandestine work as Cramer has been telling true believers like Peteb for ages.
    NB: Note the distinction between Georges Head and another huge WW2 military encampment at Georges Hall with it’s big American hospital, Royal Air Force depot and SME up the creek where Boxall and his Water Transport unit trained until early 1945, also where agent provocateur Major William Jestyn Moulds OBE attended an island invasion course prior to his seaborn landing on Morotai in May ’45.

  515. john sanders on September 28, 2020 at 6:16 am said:

    Some pretty standout questions arise in the alleged Boxall/Harkness story:-
    Sister Thomson was out in her timing for the ROK gift to Boxall of 6 to 12mths.
    Boxall was at sea & likely not contactable by his gift giver between 8/45 – 10/46.
    Sister Thomson’s ‘the same’ & ‘similar’ ROK descriptions in 7/49 not too accurate.
    Boxall spoke of ‘Jestyn’ as very young, shy, French and possibly an Army nurse.
    Sister Thomson was 24/5 in July, 1945, not Army nor un petit jeune fille Francaise.
    Boxall was at Georges Head only 2 months. Too short to mess with local fluff?
    Sister Thomson got potted in 10/46 at RNSH. All trainee urses have contingencies.
    Boxall RTA’d in late ’46 to be with Suzie, his daughter and baby Leslie not Jestyn.
    Sister Thomson’s (Jestyn?) pal Joy left WT Inst. Hubby & returned to SA in late ’46.
    Boxall in ’78 seemed not to recall much ado about his mid ’45 liason with ‘Jestyn’.
    Sister Thomson told cops that Boxall aka SM may have came a calling in late 11/48.
    Boxall told cops emphatically he’d never been to SA before his WW2 service.
    Sister Thomson was at 90A Moseley address latest early 1947. See ’47 directory.
    Boxall’s accurate service history makes no mention of hospitalisation at RNSH.
    SisterThomson was sure that her fake? story line would pass muster. How so?

    That’ll do for starters; Anyone including Bonzo like to continue the inquisition; go ahead, make my day!

  516. Pavlovpete on September 28, 2020 at 7:14 am said:

    You know, Sanders, if I was to sit on my duff all day like you do and not put anything up for discussion your life would change. You see, reactionaries have to REACT … like a dog does when it hears a noise. That’s when we get the yap yap f.cking yap.
    Sincerely.

  517. john sanders on September 28, 2020 at 7:32 am said:

    milongal: How should one respond to another’s better knowledge of a place I’ve only seen from the outside. Agreed Superintendent Brown was surely confused when stretching his memory bank on alternating layouts of Adelaide Station over the years. I suppose he was similarly confused as to what form of transort eye witnesses Strapps & Olive used on the evening of 3/11 to attend the death scene. And not overlooking Len’s apparent forgetting what he told Stuart earlier about being transferred to other duties before the book came to light on 19/7/49. Being quite certain that a Glenelg woman was Identified simply by calling the number he had found written thereupon in tiny writing; Not through tracing which was illegal and quite unecessary for any half smart cop. Give the man his due, he didn’t slip up too badly when asked by Stuart if he made the call, “ah, ah, No not me mate” or some suitable cop out.

  518. Did I miss something? I have been on and off this board for a while. Did we/someone find some officizl documents for Jessie/Jessica? Her passport, driving licence, voting registrar or birth registration?

  519. john sanders on September 28, 2020 at 10:58 am said:

    Far to neat and contrived for mine. Bonzo Bowes Ikea book shelf loaded with his great conasseurs edition favourite tomes you’d reckon eh?..Yeah well look again; the books are all generally of the same dimensions fore and aft, evidence of fake book facades once available Angus & Robertson with your choice of titles and authors. Compare his nibs’ with Alf Boxall’s humble living room honest man’s collection; hardwood shelves with a good mix of interesting titles ie., Long River (Darling) and Lawson’s essential ‘While the Billy Boils’, along with the usual hard cover Reader’s Digest condensed volumes. All well kept but and obviously well read, something our literary imposter wouldn’t appreciate. Most of my Maughams, Greene’s and Betty Sydney’s etc., are safely in storage in a big trunk under canvas up the back of my hovel, pages still dry enough to show many a former owner’s study notes. There’s also the odd hastily written interruption phone number on the back end face page, penciled in tiny writing that may later have been copied on to a police running sheet and left for others to ponder over.

  520. Misca: there’s basically zero on her afaik. I’ve often wondered not only why that should be, but also why Derek Abbott has said basically nothing on the subject.

    …unless someone knows better?

  521. Isn’t Derek Abbott’s wife, Rachel Egan, the paternal granddaughter of JEstyn?

  522. john sanders on September 28, 2020 at 10:08 pm said:

    All to easy Nick. A week back I mentioned the group conspiracy calling themselves Inner Sanctum, started by up by Feltus, our other Unknown Man about 2011 which included a selection of nominated worthies such as some that I had tentatively nominated, the likes of Abbott, Cramer & Co. In the years since their bust up, due to differences between Gerry, Derek and egotistical bridges, we latter day SM minnows have accordingly not been privy to their discussed topics of any known consequence. Reason being that at the time of their formation a secrecy pact with legal default clause inset was likely drawn up and Sworn to with a term validation which all the boyos signed up to. So in the interim, nothing from Elliott, Lawson, Ruffles or any of those above named, all but Derek who broke silence on Jestyn and Gordon who broke wind. If you don’t mind me saying so, we are not a band of brothers and are mostly not up to speed with such institutions and their enduring connotations for those selected few. Try if you will, to think of similar enduring ratbag institution with their white tie nights, black folders, trick handshakes and you’ll twig to what I’m so inellequently on about.

  523. john sanders on September 28, 2020 at 10:29 pm said:

    Misca: What we did find, though it was never lost, was the 1936 wedding certificate of Prosper and Queenie which included a witness Harley Burch who turned out to be an American family crime boss, into loan sharking, stand over door to door merchandising thouhgout Australasia (NZ) since 1923. He or one of his brothers was surely the overseer mentioned in Prosper’s WA forgery charges of 1938. A few years back such a disclosure would have been considered monumentous, but times have changed and obviously Prosper Thomson has ceased to be an SM name of consequence, for it didn’t get a mention here.

  524. misca: do we happen to know Jessica Harkness’ birthday?

    We’re told (e.g. on her gravestone) that she was born in 1921 in the Sydney suburb of Marrickville (and this may well be true). But has anyone gone looking in the BDM for everyone called Jessica (or Jessica Ellen) born in Marrickville in 1921 (particularly if we happen to know her birthday)?

    I don’t think Marrickville in 1921 would have had that many births, so that can’t be a hugely long list, right?

  525. milongal on September 29, 2020 at 12:14 am said:

    @NP: NSW BDM has a 100 year lag for births. We can’t look for her until next year through that channel

  526. milongal on September 29, 2020 at 12:31 am said:

    I sort of agree that DA’s silence on Jessica/Jessie is interesting (as per above, JS and I seem to agree that a nursing record would be unlikely to show a nickname – so “Jessie” was presumably on some formal paperwork somewhere…..), and it’s worth noting the Centennial Park record for her burial has “Jessica”.
    I do seem to recall there having been some generational falling out, so it’s possible that they have never seen any of Jessica’s docs.

    All of that being said, some online material (not overly reliable, necessarily) seems to imply she was born Jessie and may have become Jessica later (specifically referring to her as Jessie with her maiden name, but Jessica with her married name).
    e.g. Timenote notes: “Jestyn’s real identity, Jessica “Jo” Thomson (née Jessie Ellen Harkness, b. 1921 – d. 2007), finally became public. She was generally known as Jess Harkness, and then after 1947 as Jo Thomson.”

    So perhaps marriage was a point she decided Jessica was a more grown up name for her (and perhaps it’s an easy time to update name details since her surname is changing anyway).

    Trying to dig up a discussion from way back when where we went an chased a Jess(ica|ie) E(llen) Harkness – also a nurse (in regional SA) who turned out to be a couple of years older and demonstrably not Jestyn…..

  527. According to “Makara” on websleuths: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/australia-tamam-shud-case-male-dec-1948.67163/page-7#post-10122510

    Most birth records in Australia have a privacy limitation, which vary from state to state. In NSW we are able to access birth records up to 1913, so there is basically a 100 year embargo on birth records. However there are other ways to calculate a date of birth. There is only a 50 year privacy limitation on marriages in NSW. A marriage record will (in most cases) state the ages of both parties. There is only a 30 year privacy limitation on death records in NSW and once again the age of the deceased is almost always listed. This information is obviously reliant on the informant on the death certificate and how well they knew the deceased. And then there is Trove and the National Archives. Both wonderful resources to help fill in the blanks of genealogical research.

    Jessica Harkness’ parents were Thomas Lawson Harkness and Ellen Lee. They married in Western Australia in 1916. They had at least five children.

    * Thomas Jnr. b. 1917 Victoria Australia.
    * Edmund. b. 1919. Victoria Australia.
    * Jessica. b. 1921. Marrickville, Sydney NSW Australia.
    * Jean. b. 1923 NSW Australia.
    * Ellen. b. 1928 NSW Australia.

    There is a five year gap between Jean and Ellen so there may have been another child born within this time frame that I’m yet to discover.

    Makara also offers up more on Prosper’s family here: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/australia-tamam-shud-case-male-dec-1948.67163/page-9#post-10246851

    Sadly, that 2014 thread got somewhat hijacked by XLamb, but that’s how things were back then.

  528. milongal: wasn’t that a Jessie May Harkness?

  529. Nick – We don’t know her actual birth day. I (and assume many others) have been looking for her birth certificate for many years. I have done all manner of search for it and have not found it. Either her family does not know it either or they prefer to keep it confidential or they would have included it on her gravestone. Her sister’s bc are not available online either. Which I have to say, is quite unusual given the time that has passed. By now, bc’s in the 1920’s are generally “findable”.

    Harley Raymond Burch had a missing tip of his index finger of his left hand. Something that was noted on his WWII Draft Registration Card. So, I think we can eliminate him as a candidate.

  530. john sanders on September 29, 2020 at 1:39 am said:

    Nick: No she was Jessie Read Harkness 1900-85 Balaclava..As for Jessica’s DOB; if you care to check back to earlier this month, maybe on another thread header, I’m sure you’ll come up with the one I posted. Whether It’s correct or not, I have no idea but I agree that Misca could work with it better than we all.

  531. john sanders on September 29, 2020 at 5:30 am said:

    This is merely an ambitious ploy to stimulate renewed interest in the SM inqiry based solely on a confirmed Link between our man Prosper and the notorious Burch family of American style co conspiratorial shysters and employers of thugs to run their debt default service. There as been a noticeable waining of interest in this case of late, in which case the following recent research data might serve to rekindle the flames of desire and hope eternal existing in the few stalwarts who might just be pursuaded to give it one last chance for fame or at the very least, a face saving outcome to wit the Somerton Beach man’s identity etc.

    New Zealand arrival records reveal that the Burch clan from Scott City Kansas were well known flim flam merchants, including the USA ,were every bit as connected to Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch as they were to all the Australian state capitals and regional centres. There are many recorded (once important) Tasman crossings from 1925 involving all the family members ie. Harley, his Australian born wife Ivy (Crichton) and child Beverley Anne, brothers Elva and Leland along with their NZ & Aust. born spouses Margaret and Mary. Being tied in to a high turnover domestic door to door art scam empire and knowing that Whitcome & Tombs were wholesale suppliers in that field, it is likely that the family also dealt in book sales and greeting cards. Some of the Burch ‘Empire Art’ sales were probably generated by mail order so pocket books such as the various Courage & Friendship titles that came with post envelopes would have been easy to bring into Australia by family members then sent to their local D/D drummers…Any body interested?.

  532. john sanders on September 29, 2020 at 6:59 am said:

    Misca: We eliminated Harley Raymond Burch several months back as a candidate, subsequent to his having been found along with his wife and two brothers safely tucked away in Las Animas Co. General Cemetery. Though because of his known connection to an SM murder suspect called zprosper Thomson, he and his dead kinfolk can’t claim indemnity because of that otherwise possibly mitigating factor.

  533. john sanders on September 29, 2020 at 8:22 am said:

    Nick: I did find the posts from 17th &18th inst. refering to Tom Harkness Snr’s liquidity problem and birth of Jessica & Joan in Newcastle (Maryville) etc. but it seems I did not include an actual day date in ’21 for Jo. I’ll have to check my original source which isn’t possible just now, though it should present no problems directly.

  534. I’d like to add my two-bobs worth here but find the thread title a little too demeaning for my prognostications.

  535. john sanders on September 29, 2020 at 12:59 pm said:

    Peteb: By the way your slip is showing Kerrie Leigh and what’s more there appear to be traces of more than slight soiling a foot or two above the hem; to use J. B. Clelands polite jargonistic Keane suitcase contents phrasiology.

    Away from that, and were you aware that Det. Leane and I shared something in common, we being fair to muddling ‘lock-em-up’ street suits where paper work was not looked upon as essential to getting the job done and dusted.

    That all could explain to some degree, our SM biograper’s inability to track down the murder book which might give better portrayal of relevant police enquiry details, instead relying upon hearsay press releases from Scan the man.

  536. john sanders on September 29, 2020 at 1:24 pm said:

    Nick & Misca: I had found 18/2/21 some time back, though at the time I smelled a rat due mainly to the proliferation of other dubious personal details on the net. Based on Alf Boxall’s assertions that his ‘Jestyn’ character was very young in response to Livermore’s suggested 25 in mid ’45, I’d advance the DOB by a year to say 19/3/22 perhaps. I’d also go with Newcastle suburbia for the POB ie. Maryville as opposed to Sydney’s Marrickville, simply due to a perceived false lead scenario and because that’s where her family lived through most of the twenties.

  537. john sanders on September 30, 2020 at 1:40 am said:

    Peteb: It wasn’t too demeaning for you back on 11/12/18 when you determined that by introducing such topics as the D-OUOSVAVV-M code on Misc. Stuff, was the proper place for an angry Intellectual to postulate and vent his spleen. My own reasons for using the site initially was to make ‘snide’ responses to friend Gordon Cramer’s non Tamam Shud discussions on ships passing in the night and military aircraft design features etc. I certainly don’t feel demeaned using this site unless it relates to certain disturbing elements I’m having to share it with.

  538. john sanders on September 30, 2020 at 6:45 am said:

    Adelaide Advertiser 27/9/39 in it’s Undesirable form of bluff article relates to a company known as Empire Art, trading as Universal Dept Collection, 100 William St. Sydney attempting to obtain benefit by fraud. This is just one of many known cases of an international scam and extortion racket run by such as the brothers Burch ie., Harley (Dr.), Elva and Leland out of Kansas who, by employing rural travelers, some unwitting, some nit so, as agents to perpetuate their scam on gullible country folk all over. Perhaps our man Somerton was one of their portrait reproduction sales people who got wind of the rort and either threatened exposure or got in on the scam to make a better commission. Of course he may well have been representative of a like enterprise and whose take down was used to send a plain message for them to find other business. I can think of supporting evidence like the collection of ties, the newish coat shirts for use as portrait decor and of course template or frame adjusting tools (including mini coping saw) found in the Keane suitcase.

  539. john sanders on September 30, 2020 at 8:52 am said:

    In 1946 the Melbourne distribution house for Whitcom & Tombes Co. books was located at 332 Collins St. Just a short distance down from 258 a premises formerly leased by the notorious Burch brothers and managed by Clarinda Mary Burch wife of Leland Glen Burch. Leland the youngest brother and WW1 veteran was known to Adelaide police from a riotous court appearance in 1928 involving an evidence bag full of primed explosives. Anyway I’ve already touted the possibility that the family’s frequent travels to NZ may have been for liason with W & T courage and friendship (ROK) re distribution rights in rural Australia.

  540. Just this once .. I have to hand it to you, Johnno, you might be a pain in the arse, but in reality there’s not many who have your staying power in this case. Visit Prof A’s FB site and they’re discussing whether the bloke was poisoned by a someone soaking his jocks in cyanide, or something … Cramer is writing the history of Commie influence in Aus and our generous host here has given up the ghost .. Now don’t think this means I want to be your best mate, that’s never going to happen, but as I say .. you are one dogged old bastard

  541. john sanders on September 30, 2020 at 2:04 pm said:

    Peteb: I can honestly say that I have no problem with your latest piece of wisdom, even your reference to the dogeared old bastard bit. My mum was a Dee Why girl, adored the yanks, despised the nips and all who knew her said what a great sport good old Shirley was in the 40s…Back to the business though; those other bastard members of the former old boys fraternal order, most certainly still have in their possession vital evidence, obtained illegally from Sapol during the so called ‘spring cleaning’ of ’82 and should be either held to account for it, or given indemnity for passing it over post haste to those who best know how to test it’s mettle.

  542. JS – Where did you “find” 18/2/21? And how based on “Alf Boxall’s assertions” do you jump to “19/3/22 perhaps”? And how do you float around different “POB” based “simply due to a perceived false lead scenario”? WTF does your post even mean? Are you expecting everyone to be on here 24/7 following everything you write? You seem quite articulate and knowledgeable. It would be very helpful if you could also take the time to be concise and clear.

  543. john sanders on October 1, 2020 at 4:39 am said:

    OK! All in all we’re not doing so badly here of late; the Solomonson (sic) ID by the Kabara? patient at a Glenelg pub, The missing German ship deserter’s full handle and a resolution to Nick’s white tie affair which was an enterting side show. What we dearly need for an encore is a name for the missing stable hand and the horse he rode in on, in order to get a short half head (shd) clear of the field.

  544. john sanders on October 1, 2020 at 8:15 am said:

    Misca: In re your capacity as a fee paying conduit to a host of genialogical search engines, I for one am most grateful for your most helpful efforts in the past. No doubt you are good at your work as most would concede, only wishing I had your expertise and capacity, but each to their own. The techniques that I use to do skip trace checks comes not from any tool that I’m aware of, though they often produce results, as in the case of Jessica Ellen Harkness. My given background advice of late fits well enough, if not better in my opinion than presumptions based on hearsay reported over the years, none of which ever came up with anything concrete. My latest posts on her birthday comes from Gerry Feltus I believe and most of my knowledge of a Thomas Lawson Harkness’ work as a self employed electrical line contractor in Newcastle through the twenties is from trove newspapers of the period that provides his two addresses. I hasten to say that my previous report with reference to Alf Boxall’s thoughts on his nurses young age, hence a possible alternate date of birth, would not present difficulties to those who are familiar with my oft tangled words of wisdom.

  545. I found a manifest of the whole family travelling – returning from a trip to Italy. In one listing she is listed as shown here:

    Name: Jessi Thomson
    Departure Place: Genoa, Italy
    Arrival Date: 29 Oct 1962
    Arrival Place: Fremantle, Western Australia, Australia
    Vessel: Flavia

    Interesting that her name is spelt without an e. I would imagine that the information is transcribed from passports.

    On another manifest for the same trip, the entire family is listed with first initials only. Prosper’s age is listed as 50. Jessie’s as 41, Robin as 15 and Kate as 12.

  546. john sanders on October 1, 2020 at 10:40 pm said:

    Misca: Yes. You, milongal and I had somethings to say about this Genoa trip two or or three years back. I had picked it up on NAA passengrr arrivals and I’m sure I wasn’t the first because it was on the family’s return from there long stay in UK which in fact I spoke about on this very thread a week or two back. Thanks anyway It’s nice to have back up.

  547. I thought we had talked about it! So much info, so long ago. Well, helpful to have it again when trying to confirm name and age.

    I find it very difficult to search the Cipher site. I asked Nick if we could organize information differently a long time ago. Grateful that at least we have this as a spot to discuss but a shame that we can’t easily access information that has already been covered.

  548. john sanders on October 2, 2020 at 3:30 am said:

    Peteb: I detected a note of irony in Clive Turner/Walker’s latest suggestion that our man may have been caught trespassing on Prosper’s territory in whatever crooked venture he was engaged. There can be little doubt that the latter had been known to Harley Burch, so likely working for ‘Empire Art’ and ‘Universal Debt Recovery’ as a drummer & collecter with a set piece of assigned turf for himself. Just such a locality would be Clive’s ‘Waterloo’; Slap bang in the guts of the so called Kapunda triangle, only two hours from Adelaide, with it’s Prosper-ous rural landholdings being prime targets of the of flim flammers and always ripe for plucking by a man with wheels.

  549. john sanders on October 2, 2020 at 11:45 am said:

    It does seem quite clear that Jessi is the diminitive form of Jessica as opposed to Jessie which is a complete name of itself. It’s also most interesting that Jean and Jessica in Scotland are of a common derivation, but in our case moreso because our Jessica had a sister Jean born 1923, who you’ll surely recall as J. Harkness the under 12 sack race winner in the Cheltenham team for 1935. Ellen Mary was the younger sister born 1928 which thus presents a name conundrum of sorts for me at least. Could it suggest that mum and dad picked the names Jean and Ellen to remind them of Jessica Ellen, the daughter they had to give up at birth through poverty which is not unlikely.

  550. I think it’s more likely that she was born “Jessie” given that she had both an Aunt and Grandmother with the same name. She may have preferred Jessica and could have formally changed her name later or not. (If she converted to Judaism, she could have taken Jessica as her name and formalized it.).

    For example, Jessie’s mother was born “Nellie” and died “Ellen” on her formal documents. It happens.

    I have no skin in the game either way but try to keep all of this mind when searching.

    The “Jo” bit makes no sense to me at all as it’s usually a diminutive for either Joanne or Jean…Neither of which were her name.

    Her sister Jean was Jean Moir Harkness (GF John Moir) so not a big stretch…She apparently went by “Jenny”.

    Ellen/May/Mary – There are Ellen’s on both sides. Not so surprising.

  551. john sanders on October 3, 2020 at 3:45 am said:

    Any punters prepared to take a stab as to whither whence presence of the Sony Trinitron computer monitor in the background of the Keane suitcase colour picture htp://d6jf304m27oxw.cloudfront.net/mystery-of-somerton-man-the-tamam-shud-case/somerton-man-suitcase.jpo . While at it you might care to make comment on the other probably post ’82 spring cleaning objects also present ie. a bundle of 100cm slim line neon tubes, a red outboard marine fuel container and what looks to b a small spring steel saw frame with used blade inset, plus a blue auto oil filter canister amongst the tools and ties. This is your final chance of making the finals.

  552. john sanders on October 3, 2020 at 8:44 am said:

    Misca: I liked your fair and logical preference for the RNSH Jessie name, allbeit accompanied perhaps by a degree of confirmation bias derived from reliable ‘Tamam Shud Historically Known Facts’ for which to test the well stirred pot. I’d say no better or worse than my modest contrary views, although I feel that mine may tip the odds with some most convincing evidence from my own research which I doubt that the TSHKF team knew existed in the Jean/Jessica/Jessie link. I wonder did you ever give consideration to the alternative that Jo’s sister Ellen Mary may have been named for Newcastle’s Maryville maternity hospital and not past family members as you suspect?..

  553. Tamara Bunke on October 3, 2020 at 1:19 pm said:

    John, you’re going to have to type that link out again – and carefully this time. I’ve tried it with “http” and “.jpg” and still no dice.

  554. john sanders on October 3, 2020 at 2:07 pm said:

    Worth bringing up again I guess. On Victorian provisional wills and probates, we have both a Jessica Ellen Thomson and Ellen Jessie Thomson from 2007/8, neither showing up in Melbourne cemetery records. Jessica has Hamilton listed alongside her entry and Camberwell for Ellen, Hamilton being a city in Victoria, but is also second city of Newcastle NSW. Camberwell is a suburb of Melbourne and the only othet detail tells us that Jessie was retired. So it’s likely that first mentioned Jessica is our girl who died at Hamilton (probably Vic) and recorded as being interred in Centenial Park, Adelaide.

  555. john sanders on October 3, 2020 at 11:23 pm said:

    Tamara: I don’t usually do that http.jpg stuff. I copied it from Nick’s post of 17th June 2016 12.55 @ The Tamam Shud Was A Proof Of Identity thread which works.

  556. Yeah. Not the only other detail. There’s one more important detail…The “reverse” Ellen Jessie died on the 14th of July.

  557. “I wonder did you ever give consideration to the alternative that Jo’s sister Ellen Mary may have been named for Newcastle’s Maryville maternity hospital and not past family members as you suspect?..”

    Um. No.

    Honestly, I don’t think that the Harkness’ choice to name Jessie’s sister Ellen Mary after the institution she may have been born in will, in any way, lead us to determining who SM was.

    If you think proving that they may have been living in Newcastle could lead us there…Please show us the way! No one is disputing that they may have lived there. One can search trove and see that they did.

  558. You obviously have a subscription or access to someone who does. Why even post such a deliberately stupid red herring? Like people are on here biting their nails wondering if Jessica Ellen and Ellen Jessica could be confused for one another? Really? No one is wondering or knowing about these things. Just you, your paid-for genealogist and me fact-checking your bullshit. Why do you spend so much time adding to the confusion?

  559. Why is this “worth bringing up again”? It’s ridiculous and stupid and easily put down. Why are you doing this?

  560. john sanders on October 4, 2020 at 4:28 am said:

    Royal North Shore Hospital wasn’t such a big joint, about 300 beds in ’47 when it was given some serious credential by becoming a nurses teaching hospital. Better still, from the mid thirties it had adopted Sister Mary Kenny’s revolutionary Polio treating method by opening it’s dedicated child paralysis unit. RNSH being at the forefront in the field was thence accorded international acclaim which of course could not harm the career opportunities to any nurse that could boast of having been ‘imbedded’ there during those heady days…’She remembered giving a similar copy of the Rubaiyat to an army lieutenant about three and a half years ago whilst a nurse at Royal North Shore Hospital’ so said the press..Why need bring up RNSH? and don’t say because it is reasonably close to Clifton Gardens Hotel, so are plenty of other hospitals. I’d suggest our nurse was just as likely to have been putting on aires in much the same manner that she elevated herself to Sister J E Thomson for her X3239 number, just one more bald face lie by my reckoning and it’s likey they didn’t rest there.

  561. john sanders on October 4, 2020 at 5:18 am said:

    Peteb: You’re assuming that the folded pair in SC contents pic were from the body. I won’t concede that for obvious reasons ie. who folds dead man’s socks. Besides maybe ours wasn’t in the habit of wearing them apart from funerals and the like. You’d have to be familiar with Jack Reacher; shoulders like Somerton man and tall as Pavel Fedisimov who never wore socks after he left Iraq and nobody thought it was suspicious in the slightest. Your latest thread sucks mofo.

  562. john sanders on October 4, 2020 at 8:51 am said:

    Tamara: Guess you found the full frame suitcase shot by now, Meantime I’ve been checking other sites with the same photo and found five or six all obviously done off one original which I think was taken at least twenty years after the suitcase was last seen by Sapol. Interestingly, the only three places I can’t find it are in the SM Ebook by Gerry Feltus, Derek Abbott’s old web sight and the one belonging to Gordon Cramer, all inaugural members of Inner Sanctum as it turns out. A couple of points that I witheld due to their being of lesser importance, are background items such as a piece of interesting white styrofoam board and a black rectangular object with wheels resembling a modern suitcase. I also notice that the two light tubes are attached to a wall mount. I’m relying on your evaluation comrade, to verify the time element discrepency and such, all my previous attempts to bring out this factor having gone unoticed, by less vigilant & inquiring minds perhaps.

  563. john sanders on October 4, 2020 at 10:54 am said:

    Misca: I’m a tad disapointed in your wrongful assertion that there could be someone researching genealogy on my behalf for money. In the past I have put my trust only in the thee to guide me through the mire of family relativity; you were always my reliable pipline through the mire and mystique of those old family links. No problem though I have the time and energy to dig up a few old graves on my pat malone, if there be the mere chance of some new and relevant discovery coming to light. So thanks for all your help in the past and who knows?, a little more persistance with Jessie Harkness’ Marrickville birth details and graduation at RNSH might be rewarded, thereby giving your success rate of late, a much needed boost!….

  564. mofo – generic US slang for motherfucker. Nice moderating Dome.

  565. peteb: there’s plenty I do moderate out, which is a process almost as tiresome as receiving comments complaining about what I let through.

  566. Tamara Bunke on October 4, 2020 at 2:10 pm said:

    John, I found the image from the 2018 thread. I can’t see some of the objects you mention. Very difficult to date the picture on the basis of what is visible. I suspect the link shows a crop. I was a little struck by how digital the image looks, but I’m no expert.

    Perhaps you could mark up the image with what you consider to be the suspect items?

  567. john sanders on October 4, 2020 at 2:57 pm said:

    Tamara: Right on the money and I was confident you’d find an open door without promting if anyone could. What we need to do is get Nick to use his invasive tools to look through the top repro pixels and see what’s lurking beneath. If the photo was taken after 2000 or so chances are that a digital camera was used and if there be pixels present we’ve evidence to give Sapol about likely unlawful possession of police evidence. There is another similar colour photo that I suspect to be of the same late vintage and which might tell a similar story and the combination of both might just serve to flush a co conspirator or two out of hiding. Of course even if a film camera was used, we still have other good means to make the case worth pursuing.

  568. Tamara Bunke on October 4, 2020 at 3:24 pm said:

    Nick, do you have a view on the image? The color is quite saturated and despite being harshly lit (by flash?) from above, highlight detail is intact, save for the white tube, which is blown out. I can’t see any film grain… can anyone else?

    Do we know where the image has come from? Is it scanned from a print?

    This is the kind of question that Gordon could usefully provide an opinion on, too. In case he’s around.

  569. Tamara Bunke: I don’t know the source of that image, but I’ll have a look at my archives later, see what I can turn up.

  570. john sanders on October 4, 2020 at 10:30 pm said:

    Tamara: I’d be quite confident that Gordon could provide some of his expertise in this matter if he was of a mind. Whilst he never displayed the actual reproduction in his site’s suitcase pictorial, he did highlight numerous individual objects taken from amongst the scatter. It would not surprise if he was qualified enough to even identify what sort of camera was used, make, model, serial number and even film speed if appropriate providing his memory is still clear.

  571. john sanders on October 5, 2020 at 2:04 am said:

    Welcome to the parlour MD Bevan, but be warned that things happen a little differently on this side of the lake. For instance your on topic discussion points, whether they accord with our moderator’s views or nay, will be viewed with the this site’s renowned spirit of fairness and posted without fear of favour for opinion or query. Your having come out on the Tomsbytwo blog with all guns blazing was somewhat nieve and you can be assured that you may not be given a second chance to improve your game. That is unless you subscribe by instrument in writing to obey the site rule stipulating that personal opinions are not tolerated and that immoderstor Bonzo Bowes always gets the last word period.

  572. john sanders on October 5, 2020 at 5:38 am said:

    “…but I knew I was way out of my depth”. That’s Bonzo talking about his retreat from hopes that the lost tribe of Voynich would be universally accepted and be a boost to his nonentity status with recognised VM experts. Of course folks were polite enough in their rejection of his wacky views, most having seen quite enough of his overplayed obvious false sense of scolastic superiority. Some even making spot check visits to his single thread Grand Theft Auto platform to check that he wasn’t a zombie.

  573. milongal on October 5, 2020 at 9:57 pm said:

    @Misca: regarding awkward searching …..

    I assumed this was common knowledge, but just in case you didn’t know (apologies if you did)….

    I’ve found for searching it’s often easier not to use the site’s internal search, but use google and add “site:(partial)siteURL” (If you didn’t know this, I’m sure there’s plenty of references that explain all sorts of nuances to search domains and subdomains etc).

    The reason the approach does better for me on blogs (eg this one) is that the google search indexes the comments, not just the content. If you search for Keane in the searchbox on this site, you’ll get articles about Keane. If you do it through google you’ll get mentions in comments as well.

    The reason this seems to work on other collections like trove (and probably all the nla/naa sites) is that the rules on their searches seem broader than google (eg if you put a name or phrase in quotes, google assume you want a close match to that exact phrase….trove’s engine interprets it as you want a close match to any/all of the words in the phrase (so “Jessica Thomson” on google will match stuff similar to “Jessica Thomson”, but “Jessica Thomson” on trove will find all pages that have a Jessica and a Thomson – even if the names don’t appear together

  574. If you had another brain, Sanders, it’d be lonely.

  575. john sanders on October 6, 2020 at 11:45 pm said:

    General Colin Simpson was ‘Association’ head honco between ’47 and ’50 when it was disbanded through lack of support by it’s ex AIF base and to some extent the failing health of it’s titula head Tom Blamey. Simspson had served as Signal Intel. chief throughout the war and was used by the latter to tidy up things that might otherwise badly reflect on Australia’s reputation with it’s allies. After managing to
    resolve the catastrophies of the AIF retreats from Greece and Crete, he was sent to Java to put a better face on the apparent desertion of an RAAF squadron who were had holed up their, safely escorting the unit back to Adelaide in March ’42 thereby prevent threatened harm to the offenders. He was big in defence of the RSL’s far right agenda post WW2 and a firm believer in a military higherarchy run by civilian militIa officrs as opposed to regulars who lacked sufficient patriotism by his own reckonning and that of his boss Sir Thomas (to be Field Marshal) general Blamey.

    A very capable loyal and highly decorated officer who had been a pal of Blamey and other pro facist rabble rousers like R. L. Leane, Police Commisioner of South Australia from WW1and beyond, the man who may as well have coined the phrase that ‘the only good red was a dead red’, unless of course they happened to have done their bit for the war effort. Colin was a chemist in his civillian profession and a very capable one at that. In 1937 he started up the cooperative pharmaceutical retailing supply chain which still operates Australia wide named AMCAL. In 1945 an Adelaide family run business took advantage of AMCAL’s buying power and signed up after divesting it’s self of previous supply contracts and seemed to have done well. Charles, Colin and JOHN FREEMAN had a number of shops including those at Norwood, Unley, Glenside and of course the one at 24A JETTY Road, Glenelg.

  576. john sanders on October 7, 2020 at 4:14 am said:

    What would mission command for the 1946 Bikini atomic tests, be doing sending an irradiated Mk. 2 Somerton Man to Sydney for treatment. Great if he had a touch syphilis as Byron suspects, or even cerebral palsy perhaps, with it’s world class polio therapy clinic. Radiation poisoning cases would be better dealt with at a facility set up specifically for treating such cases ie.,Yokahama or the huge military hospital in Honolulu, much closer as well. Gordon might like to get his new man PeteDavo to revise his incorrect dates, as Jessica was in all probabilty still not too familiar with exposure cases in 1945, the year stipulated for her tryst with SM at RNSH.

  577. john sanders on October 7, 2020 at 8:36 am said:

    Tamara: If you haven’t found it yet, CM Somerton Man’s Suitcase thread gives a much brighter clearer photo of the background which throws some doubt on the computer monitor screen, whilst the scatter gives some clarity on other objects such as the folding coat hanger, readily distinguisable from the small saw thingo.

  578. john sanders on October 7, 2020 at 1:45 pm said:

    ….and a couple more identification errors, my excuse being failure to take in the aspect and film colour tones. M red outboard fuel container turns out to be a barrel type vucuum cleaner of typical Electrolux or Volta type. The other being the misidentified blue oil filter gizmo which turns out to be the little Green’s pipe and cigarette lighter, sans polished surface as displayed in Detective Len Brown’s 1978 presentation for Inside Story. My stuff up as usual.

  579. john sanders on October 8, 2020 at 7:11 am said:

    Let’s see if we just can’t help Bonzo Bowes out with a few factual errors in his latest comic capers text concerning a nest of Italian fruiterers that had once occupied barracks right next door to the army Water Transport Wing at Chowder Bay. This is the same location where spy master Lt. Alf Boxall 36 had just set up shop with his comrades, Maj. Bill J. Moulds 36 of Manly and a 29 year old red Jessie Harkness, a nurse at nearby Royal North Shore Hospital. The purpose of their collective being to oversee military shipping cargos destined for the Salisbury Weapons Research Establishment at Adelaide SA and report relevant details for favour of clandestine transmition via a ship’s third officer cargo marker and soviet conduit to his soviet consular handlers in Sydney.

    Problems arise, as most informed CM followers would know. They would include realisation that we’re talking mid 1945 and the Italians had ceased being the enemy a year earlier. Most of the internees had of course by then returned to their homes in suburbia and resumed pre war vocations, either in their market gardens fruit shops or fish cafe’s. Of course no ships were headed for WRE, reason being that it actually didn’t even exist unti 1947. The wartime munitions filling factory at Salisbury which it took over from had ceased it’s own operations down due to a marked diminisment for need since VE day in May ’45…Alf Boxall was 39 not 36 and Jessica was likely to have been 24 not 29…Alf Boxall’s daughter bn. 14/6/44 was Robyn Isobel according to his NAA file and Bonzo’s Leslie seems only ever to have come to light with Gerry’s book?

  580. Tamara Bunke on October 8, 2020 at 8:23 am said:

    Well, well, well, compadres. What do we make of Mr. Voshart’s rendering from the bust, photos and written descriptions, as broadcast by ABC and highlighted over on TS/BS? Artistic license aside, it’s the most compelling image yet. Gives the old bugger a bit more life.

    Is Master Robin a “chip off the old block”, as we say here in Bolivia?

  581. john sanders on October 8, 2020 at 1:36 pm said:

    Tamara: Voshart completely missed that standout groove on the top of SM’s nose in the finished product, having included it in his mortuary photo assimaly which was even included in the Lawson bust. So what’s his game here; seems like he’s been given a suspect without it to comply with a client’s whims. I recall when I first intruded into this case on CM, I made mention that old Glenelg money bags and racing man Reg Bickford who died at his Somerton home on 20/11/48 had that same characteristic which I though might well have come down from the original Alvington, Devon family. A good example can be found on the American born actor Charles Bickford who has kindly supplied us with a hundred clips displaying the very same feature. Check him out on wiki if your more adventurous than the rest.

  582. Tamara Bunke on October 8, 2020 at 8:23 pm said:

    Charlie Bickford sure is one mean-lookin’ mo’fo. Died only two months after I did, too. Anyway, if I was casting for a Somerton Man, old Charlie would get the part, for sure.

    But I’m not one for noses. I know from bitter experience that it’s the teeth that identify the man in the end.

  583. john sanders on October 8, 2020 at 10:54 pm said:

    Tamara: In that case, you’d be on the money with Dan having taken young Robin’s pearly whites as his model (conveniently). He certainly had not much to go on with SM’s abscence of a toothy smile on the slab and to me the man was not much of a grinner in life either.

  584. john sanders on October 9, 2020 at 3:23 am said:

    I’m pretty sure it was Lawson who brought us news of a falling out between our former pals, ( Bill & Jim fall). Two ‘joined at the hip’ (fore & aft) inseperable bum buddies and devout believers in spy theories, the art secret writing within a code format and soviet inspired beach slayings. When mates fall out it is of course a sad affair indeed and brings with it a sense of unimaginable loss for mutual friends caught between allegance to both. How could such a thing happen we might wonder; perhaps something as petty as mere mention of two little dicky birds and subsequent assumed connection to a strenuously denied stalking charge, thereby creating offence…So it’s fly away Peter, fly away Paul, have your way GC but get ready for a fall…

  585. john sanders on October 9, 2020 at 6:10 am said:

    *** would be awarded to C G Cramer according to Peter Bowes own simple rating system. Although it would seem to fall in a specified category by his very own reckoning, Gordon the Great Pretender is guilty of his rejecting his own ‘take it on the chin’ ruling. He would of course deny that his very actions led to the shutting down of a very finely set up Fandom sponsored ‘anemptyglass’ site, now a virtual SM wasteland due to the man’s manic jealousy, insecurity and spite.

  586. john sanders on October 9, 2020 at 8:44 am said:

    As far as the name Bickford goes, it is of course intrisically connected to our SM case for a variety of sound reasons, not least of which involves the inheritors of an original softdrink and chemical company set up in Adelaide by Devonish migrants William and Elizabeth Bickford in the 1850s. Although Bill died soon after, the old matriarch was startlingly successful in her management and in the raising of kids with similar business accumen…Harold, William and Reginald were all second generation inheritors of a new era and born Somertonians who spent much of their early lives at Alvington mansion across the from the beach.

    I spent a lot of time researching the family, heirs and successors to the Bickford empire which continues in much the same manner as it has for 150 years. I’ve gotten to know most of the twentieth century members quite better than most I would expect. Those that served their country in all wars and mixed services, those involved in civic affairs, sporting clubs, company directorships, those who were cut down in youth and even others who went through highly publicized divorces from rather sporty ladies with a penchant for men in uniform. I have all the details and histories of scores of this interesting ahd closeknit family

    All but one are more or less accounted for and I’m going nuts trying to extend the little I know about this particular mystery man, likely born before WW1. It seems that I overlooked him previously mainly in that his name didn’t raise flags. William Reginald fitted in well with the older governing patriarchs in a way that he could be taken for granted as a son or nephew and not likely an unknown. This chap now,
    does not appear to be part of the original S A family at all. The the only mention of him in the state is his marriage to the daughter of a well to do family of second generation woolbuyers in 1939 and when he and wife Elizabeth arrived in Adelaide from Singapore in 1947. Stated address on arrival proved to be a little windfall which I’ll elaborate on later when and if there are revelations worth revelation.

  587. john sanders on October 9, 2020 at 11:37 am said:

    Found William Reginald Bickford, but still doesn’t go beyond ’47. Likely an Anglo Indian public servant who was cited for bravery and exemplary service during Burmese relief efforts in a civil capacity. So doesn’t appear to be related directly to the Adelaide Bickford mob. Will now have to find out where he was evacuted to when the Japanese took Lashio. I’m thinking that he may have gone to Columbo, Ceylon, then possibly shipped to Adelaide on the Orcades with Colin Simpson’s exfiltration draft in March to be with his wife. That is unless he was captured and spent the war in Changi or like internment camp. Getting interesting and hope to expand.

  588. john sanders on October 9, 2020 at 2:51 pm said:

    After analysing raw evidence, I’m quite sure William Bickford was not captured in Burma, but instead was responsible for assisting all sorts of civilians to make the perilous one thousand kilometer journey to temporary camps in Assam province, India. The conditions encountered would have taken a huge toll on all including himself, due to infectious diseases, lack of medicine food and rest deprevation. There can be little doubt that he would have, like his charges have been prone to the effects of debilitating maladies such as dysentry, malaria, dengue fever and scrub mite typhus with it’s death rate alone higher than almost any other arachnid infection known. One might well imagine that without penicilin and other modern day care in 1942, reinfection might well have stayed with a so afflicted person for many years, indeed most probably never regained their pre war health. I wonder if a pathologist unfamiliar with tropical scrub typhus, such as John Dwyer would have been competent in detecting such organic breakdown during a routine autopsy.

  589. john sanders on October 9, 2020 at 11:00 pm said:

    I think we might well be on to something well worth pursuing in a broader manner than my reaearch limitations allow to expand much further. Could well be bigger than past initiatives the likes of Willem Styn, Arnold Deutsch, Jimmy Keane and a dozen more Keanes; even might I dare to say Pavel Fedosimov. We really need to get down to the nuts and bolts of my William Raymond Bickford who might have been of a type to give himself a beach funeral to accord with similar rites given to those witnessed by him during service in the East. I seem to recall E. Arthur Blair (Orwell) describing such a ritual in ‘Burma Days’. Speaking of which he and the great man almost certainly would have been aquainted in the twenties and I’d guess that they were of a comparable age. The only thing else I can offer at present is that in 1947, Reg gave the Adelaide address of his wife’s elder brother John Edwards who during the war was a naval Lieutenant and had served in both Sydney and Melbourne One Sydhey address happened to be a very short hop to that of Joseph Marshall’s Singapore teacher, noting that Reg and Elizabeth Bickford had arrived from there. As to what they had been doing there is anybody’s guess.

  590. john sanders on October 10, 2020 at 4:08 am said:

    Some clarity is now forthcoming courtessy of various London Gazettes, Civil Lists and the like, but still nothing beyond a change of appointment from Burma to a Commonwealth Relations posting to recognised part of the Dominion gazetted 11 June 1948. During the war he had been given an Army reserve commission in the medical service which must have coincided with his arrival at Margherita with the motley collection of emaciated mixed nanionality of refugees for which he got his MBE. One thing we know from Bill’s citation is that he was a powerful swimmer who crossed the mighty Irrawaddi or tributary thereof; and by extension a man blessed with large hands and big shoulders perhaps.

    Of course for those who are not Keane on going over the SM cut off year of 1908, then some possible bad news comes up with mention of his age as being only thirty six in 1948 which is a tad under our bar set at of 40/45, if of course the list detail was correct. I’d personally reserve judgement on the number until we come up with confirmation, considering that means our hero would then have earned his gong at age 30 in 1942 and that his seniority date for promotion to department undersecretary way back in 1935 would be just 23 if that can be believed. I wonder where he married Liz in ’39; if in Australia there should be access to the B D & M record as oppossed to the S A Geni. entry in Adelaide press which is pay walled.

    I realise that it might be rathet difficult for such a well known officer of the King to end up dead on some beach in the Antipodes without there having been a hew & cry raised that he was even missing, exacerbated by nobody coming forward to recognise him or to claim his remains. Perhaps not so strange if our friend had for instance recently stood down from a recent posting to say FSM or Singapore after the war, which sounds right and then came to Australia (Gov. Gazettes are always a year off) perhaps for his medical condition where he would have been another face in the uncaring Adelaide crowd. If only we could come up with what became of his wife or her family, there’d be possibilty for connection which ain’t happening for most part although I think I just saw sister Claire getting hitched to an AIF lad.

  591. Anybody know if the Freeman Rubaiyat, whatever publication it was, had a fly leaf separating the back cover from the last page?

  592. john sanders on October 10, 2020 at 1:41 pm said:

    Peteb: Best common sense based calculated guess; no fly leaf and most likely no dust cover. That sit OK with you? or are you looking for better ammo.?

  593. Got all the ammo I need, just need to get the sights adjusted, looking for a clean headshot. Thanks.

  594. john sanders on October 10, 2020 at 10:37 pm said:

    Proponderance of opinion from past submissions suggest Minx edition was somewhat tattered which means no cover, and inclusion of penciled phone number(s) on TS page points to no fly leaf. Perhaps Cramer could share more reliable wisdom.

  595. john sanders on October 10, 2020 at 10:57 pm said:

    The Queen has been graciously pleased to appoint the undermentioned to be officers of Her Majesty’s Diplomatic Service…William Reginald Bickford Esq. MBE.
    From London Gazette 5th July 1966.

  596. They travelled to Australia in early 1950 as well…so, not him.

    In fact, they travelled quite a lot.

    He was born 14 Sept 1911 and died in Feb 1990 in Haywards Heath, West Sussex.

    Elizabeth Mary (Edwards) Bickford was born 3 Aug 1914 and died in Oct 1999.

    Her brother (John Warren Edwards) was born and lived in Australia.

    Their parents were Stephanie Whetham and Warren Edwards.

  597. JS – You could have provided the information you had and the information you were looking for in maybe 3-4 sentences. That would have been much better than rambling through all that stuff just to figure out what you were on about.

  598. Tamara Bunke on October 11, 2020 at 6:33 am said:

    The only true stopper.

    Alas.

  599. john sanders on October 11, 2020 at 8:56 am said:

    Misca: Always nice to get the good oil from such a reliable and obliging source and many thanks. If you’re not to busy, how about William George Bickford 5/3/05 (?). yachtsman, rejected for RAN and last seen 2/42 Perth. Missing Bickfords abound.

    I must admit with that I tend to be long winded and a real space waster at times, but by the same token, I love to inform others about brave deeds involving ligitimate SM candidates like y’man with the MBE. Helps me with my filing too.

  600. The man with the MBE:

    Medal listing of Bickford, William George
    Discharge number: R10223

    He was born 6 August 1905 in Tilbury, Essex and died 6 January 1973 in Thurrock, Essex. His parents were William George Bickford (1873-1945) and Florence Maud.

  601. john sanders on October 11, 2020 at 10:53 pm said:

    Misca: Another one down and well done as usual. Take a break you deserve it.

  602. john sanders on October 13, 2020 at 11:58 am said:

    It seems that when ‘bright spark’ Byron Deveson spotted young Strapps mention of the striped trousers way back when, he gave C G Cramer the ammunition he needed to create his by now well tabulated theme. That being to have SM carted off by Bob Wake’s team to have a late night snack and get his striped duds exchanged for a pair of plain brown hastily mended Staminas before being taken back down to the beach in order to take care of any later queries. Just a couple of amomolies arise with that case scenario from where I stand and it boils down to Strapps own words, supported by his companion to some degree. They both say they saw the man’s hand, in Gordon’s case fully extended, but with the added observation of seeing him only from the waist down, but assuming he wore a suit, the jacket was not visible. My point being if the left arm was outstretched and they had a clear view from the waist down, then they must surely have seen both the striped jacket sleave and at least several inches of the tail frock hanging below the belt line. Looks to me like the kids were mistaken in what they saw and that Cramer took advantage of the confusion to support his not so clever diversion. By the same token Bowes is not off the hook by playing his own misleading game for God knows how long, Byron of course seeing from the start that mention of stripes was not supported.

  603. sparky on October 13, 2020 at 9:17 pm said:

    Stirrer

  604. john sanders on October 14, 2020 at 3:50 am said:

    For anyone bored with my manic persistance re possible missing Bickfords, let me fill you in on a few blanks that may not have been given too much blog spots over the years…Reginald ‘Joe’ Bickford, along with three of four siblings, was born at Alvington 17 Sth Esplinade Somerton in 1880 and died at 17 Tarleton St. Somerton on 20th November 1948 aged 68, leaving his year older widow Rosa nee Cudmore plus two married sons and a married daughte. At time of his passing. Sir Reginald was managing director of Bickford’s cordials and aerated waters division of the parent chemicals Company which was amalgimated with Drug Houses of Australia.

    Reg was no small fry in terms of wealth and influence within the upper eschelon of Adelaide society, he had been a racing man, was also on the board of several top sporting clubs and charitable organisations, not to mention board chair of the Somerton Crippled Children’s Home that was taken over by his doctor son Major Reginald Nevil Cudmore Bickford MID. When he passed it was the Saturday, start of the Parafield Air Pageant so happens, the message would have soon gone out, for widely scattered friends relatives etc., to roll up at Somerton and pay respects, which they did by the score, from near & far. Apart from Perth where his brother Sidney had settled years before, there were Rosa Cudmore pasturalist kin from Queensland NSW Victoria, and grazing districts along Murray in SA’s Riverland.

    In order to allow for far flung mourners desirous of attending the funeral there was a need to delay it for quite awhile which was a good idea for another reason, that being to allow local officials to make necessary provisioning for one of the largest turnouts in years, which most likely included arranging accommodation any other facilities to ensure a good press coverage. As for the main event, it finally went ahead without a hitch, the courtage leaving the family home at 2.00pm on Monday, November 29th 1948 and making for St. Judes Cemetery at nearby Brighton and puting the great man to rest in a celebration of life befitting a Royal.

    So, bearing in mind the mixed make up of the mourners from all walks of life who had arrived at Somerton from every far flung district of the Commonwealth, during the preceeding week, over the weekend and even on Monday 29th, the burial day. Anyone think it might have been likely that one of joe Bickford’s old racing mates, left his bush humpy, caught the old curtain flapper motor rail from up country to town, then attended on his ‘pat malone’ to pay his private homage. He may have drowned his sorrows alone at the wake or elswhere, spent his last night but one at the familiar Somerton stables, then next day, still in his funeral attire, wandered down to see the old Bickford family home. Then while descending the one off ‘disabled stairs’ to the beach, fell through the railing and landing on X marks the spot where he opted for Tamam Shud a la sine die.

  605. Tamara Bunke on October 14, 2020 at 9:48 am said:

    If that’s a solid coincidence of events, then it has some merit, John. Surprising that the two events were not connected (as far as we know) by press and police?

  606. john sanders on October 14, 2020 at 10:53 am said:

    ……Reg ‘Joe’ Bickford was not a Sir afterall and by extension his Rosa was no lady. On a brighter note however, her learned brother Arthur and cousin Collier of the Wentworth-on-Murray Cudmore clan, were both Knights of the Realm and would likely have attended the Requiem Mass for old Joe in ’48 in that capacity.

  607. john sanders on October 14, 2020 at 11:28 am said:

    No not even a whisper Tamara. Brings to mind what Sister Thomson was alleged to have said about the case being somewhat above Sapol’s status in certain matters pertaining to a superior class in Adelaide social structure.

  608. Tamara Bunke on October 14, 2020 at 1:02 pm said:

    John, I guess one of the questions is: what kind of people get washed into town for the event. There’ll be some good, some bad and some downright ugly.

    Lords and Ladies? Made Men? Bookies and spivs? Spies?

  609. milongal on October 14, 2020 at 9:19 pm said:

    Certainly an interesting coincidence, and as you say it makes Jestyn’s comments more interesting. I never liked the interpretation that she was implying there were secret agencies involved (which I guess is where a lot of people’s espionage angle comes from), but I can accept she was implying that money and influence can make all sorts of things go away.

    Incidentally, does that maybe also talk to the lack of a hat? Suspect you wouldn’t wear a hat to a funeral, and if SM was in his Sunday Duds (as opposed to someone who was always well dressed), is it possible he didn’t bother with a hat because he was dressed up for a funeral, not a normal day?
    Not sure the (contents of the) suitcase fits in well with that theory though….

  610. john sanders on October 14, 2020 at 10:55 pm said:

    Too true, and don’t forget the bent coppers. Speaking of which, I wonder what they might have missed at the all important crime scene. Plenty in my books and I’ve tried to allert others to some over time with little interest shown. If you’d care to test your powers of observation, please get over there and report back so we can discuss it. Best place to look is ‘Tamam Shud unredacted’ who did a better job of the CS pic than most. After that we might have a look at Grey’s Anatomy if you’re up for the gory outcome that comes with a heavy fall.

  611. john sanders on October 15, 2020 at 9:01 am said:

    Milongal: By degrees of coincidental probability, a mourner at Reg ‘Joe’ Bickford’s funeral, or one who came on Tuesday to pay private graveside homage to a mate from his racing days, must at the very least be on par with other contenders for Somerton Man status. I’m certain that the well attended local St Jude’s service was never put up there with other big draw cards ie., Parafield Air Pageant, Ballet World Premier, or side show carnival at Glenelg, as being of equal value. Baring in mind the number of out-of-towners, interstate family and even the odd lone cocky in attendance, we’ll never know why not. I brouoght this very subject up for mention in several earlier posts, but don’t recall that my raising it then was ever dealt with as a topic for extended discussion, certainly not that I can recall.

  612. john sanders on October 15, 2020 at 10:38 pm said:

    Peteb: I can’t see that the the Coroner, Sapol or the A.G. have any real say in the matter. According to Adelaide Cemetery Authority who are responsible for site leases at the dead centre, when your time’s up, your up, and that would apply to all three who have shared SM’s West Terrace plot way beyond their paid up date.

  613. john sanders on October 16, 2020 at 5:59 am said:

    Milongal: I’ts only little more than two and a half kms. from Joe Bickfords resting place to Somerton via Brighton Rd Wattle Ave. King George Rd. and Repton St. and Sth Esplinade to reach Alvington mansion. After leaving his hat on a rack in the St. Jude’s Church vestibule, it should have taken SM but thirty minutes on foot, though who knows what shape he was in. There was a rest stop if required at John Miller Reserve benches or, better still the Sailing Club where he might have forced down a plate of chips and a cold West End ale or two before continuing. ps: I wonder if the old church has a sign in register for mourners and a lost property book listing hats left in the vestibule closet on 30/11/48.

  614. Johnno … there has to be a reason for two governments of different political persuasions to have the one thing in common, that is, denying a privately funded exhumation, and scooping up the DNA work already done.

  615. john sanders on October 16, 2020 at 1:26 pm said:

    Peteb: The baskets didn’t seem to mind the offer of a privately funded SM burial service, but things were great in ’48 when socialist conservative (Playford) still held sway in sweet S. A.

  616. john sanders on October 17, 2020 at 5:02 am said:

    Peteb: I might have had a moment of distraction; but I think my point was that a big city mortuary has more than enough laying in customers at any one time for mix ups to occur. Who knows what the deal was with Const. Durham’s ‘original body’ gaff? or what y’man made of it, although it didn’t seem to perturb him at all. One thing of several that I have difficulties with in Henry’s case is that he went well beyond the pale in describing SM’s distinctive feet, calves and hands but not one word about missing incisors and weird lugs that might otherwise be worthy of comment. On the other hand you’ll recall that on D day plus one, re. the autopsy, Colonel Dwyer saw nothing note worthy about the limb extremities, which had so facinated Lawson; he did see fit to provide an excellent tooth chart nonetheless. Horses for courses perhaps, although for all that, one can’t help but to wonder if our resident professionals were describing the same cove, notwithstanding the six month hiatus of course.

  617. Fair enough. PL though was a known mat grappler and being so probably had an eye for good physique .. unlike your stoop shouldered pipe-smoking bespectacled quack.

  618. And by the way, the Adelaide morgue was about as big as a double garage .. I have found both exterior and interior pics.

  619. john sanders on October 18, 2020 at 6:11 am said:

    Peteb: Lawson gets an unwanted call from Const. Dinham not Durham, as Gordon Cramer continues to misinform a doubtful poster. Paul who at that juncture was having some bother with SM’s ears, they presenting more like pair of dried apricots than pinkies, is not amused, particularly when pressed as to when ‘the body’ might be made ready for disposal. “And what blessed body would that be mate?” asks a cagey old Lawson as known later from ‘Inside Story’. “Why, the the original blessed beach body of course. I was told you only got to do one body at a sitting”! was the sarcastic retort…..When you make exactly the same name error as pal Gordon, one can’t help but agree to his pliagerism claims.

  620. john sanders on October 18, 2020 at 12:23 pm said:

    “I also have some copies of some writing found on the deaceased” is what police photogropher Durham told the Inquest He had done the fingerprinting and slab pics on day three at the mortuary, some of which were returned to him after giving evidence. And yet his referral to copies of a paper with some wtiting found on the deceased did not prompt any desire for clarification by the Coroner or anyone in the years since ror all that. If it was the Tamam Shud slip, like most might assume, it certainly wasn’t described in those terms, indeed it certainly seems pretty vague; perhaps just as unclear as the later mention of C9 (piece of paper) in the index list.

    On day one a memo was received at police HQ from Glenelg PD advising a Det.
    Leane and Payneham OIC of a firm identity named E. C. Johnson of George Street that had come to their attention, though there was no ellaboration. During that evening the information was checked and discounted; affirmed next morn when Edgar Cyril Johnson presented himself and advised he was staying at People’s Palace (Salvos). Problem for me is that his description didn’t fit in a number of areas including his height of 5’9″ and that his middle right finger wasn’t., not forgetting that he was 55 and sported an arm in plaster. He was ex Aif and a cook.

    So whence had the information been received at such an early stage., surely not from friends or family and certainly not from any missing person file. I wonder is it possible that it came from that ‘piece of paper with writing’ that Durham had referenced. Perhaps something found on the body after a more thorough going over by Det. Sgt. Harry Strangway, of Glenelg who was regarded as the best SC man in Sapol in those days. We’re not to know of course because the old fellow was re assigned to local crime then Det. R. L. Leane took over the case six long weeks later. The piece of paper might well have said ‘E.C. Johnson Salvos’, a good place to camp for a sober bloke from the bush. Sounds reasonable to me…

  621. john sanders on October 19, 2020 at 8:13 am said:

    Gordon Cramer at BS seems to be of the opinion like many, that Durham’s paper with WRITING represented the TS slip which might have made sense had it been clearer ie. ‘a torn slip with Tamam Shud in print’. So I repeat, it does not tally up with the C9 ‘piece of paper’ exhibit tendered and besides, the man’s testimony, in essence seems to have dealt solely with his recollections of a single mortuary attendance to photograph the body some five months prior to the TS slip being found elsewhere by J B Cleland. Of course it may be that the deposition clerk mixed up the order or something, though it’s fair to say that if so, it would be one of more than one to many such mistakes evidenced for my liking. Having been in an occupation where the collecting and collating of evidence was paramount to obtaining a conviction. I’m still wary of being made to look inefficient due a silly oversight by a ciurt clerk. Of course CGC not having served in a like capacity is obviously not going to be fussed with sticking to known facts, if a fanciful storyline allows for better copy.

  622. john sanders on October 19, 2020 at 11:22 am said:

    Peteb: So nice of you to enquire on CGC’s behalf about our mental health issues on this side of the channel. Can’t speak for Nick who doesn’t come by much these days with little need it seems. I’m doing just fine thanks, but for that inferiority thing which probably has to do with a bad gene or two. I’ve noted that in reading between the lines, you still have fond memories of the old drunk, a bit loopy from need of a drink perhaps. I had been concerned myself of late, though after your little tet a tet with the old phony, he seems to have picked up somewhat and is showing signs of his old self, case in point being that he has resumed talking to his alter ego on line once more. A touch of that old repartee was evidenced when his Anon. made fun of SM’s dodgy ‘chompers’ and even dared to test his master’s vastly superior knowledge; all for effect of ciurse which would certainly fool some fools.

  623. john sanders on October 20, 2020 at 6:22 am said:

    Peteb: Well profiled facial impressions are OK for frontal comparison but as any old suit worth his well deserved stipen can tell you, to get the full guts on a dial, you better have a profile ala ‘portrait parle’ as they used to say in the job. There are several of SM out there, some of them good enough for a shot at the top score contest, if you’re up to it….ps. to include Cramer’s side views with all those red arrows he’s so fond of could be deemed an unfare advantage.

  624. john sanders on October 20, 2020 at 10:56 am said:

    No punters in need of stimulation I take it, okey dokey but I’ll just go right ahead anyway. The other day I was making enquiries with the helpful folk at Brighton Council re the old St. Judes cemetery and just so happened to obtain some rather useful information on street lighting at Somerton end of Sth Esplinade through to the dunes near John Miller park. In essence it appears that there were a few single bulb & shade pole lights up to Broadway from Glenelg, then nothing through to Wyatt St. where one was present in the 30s. “When we left (Somerton ) at 8pm the street lights were on”. is what young Gordon Strapps confidently told the ’49 inquest, along with a bunch of defencive fibs. It is quite clear in the panorama shot of the beach (Truth 10/7/49) that their are no staunchions visible between Ferris St. and further south of Bickford Tce. Digest that and I’ll treat you to another on John Moss at the risk of becoming another pliagerist..

  625. Tamara Bunke on October 20, 2020 at 6:29 pm said:

    Sanders – nice one. Strapps’ testimony is suspect from start to finish. Especially his curiously late and hasty blurting out of the bit about the stripey kecks.

    Whiff of the esprit d’escalier about that one. Almost like he forgot to mention something he was told to?

  626. john sanders on October 21, 2020 at 7:44 am said:

    Clive is wanting to know why go to the trouble of doing a bust of SM which was unlikely to achieve any better results than the original Durham, doctored slab photos of the body which was about to be interred. Two reasons that come to mind relate to CIB chief Bill Sheridan’s infatuation with latest policing trends from Scotland Yard for such fancies; then we have the connection between J B Cleland and a young museum pheasant plucker Paul Lawson who sought experience in that very field. Cleland and young ‘Henry’ were more or less dependant upon each other’s specialties one as an ornithologist, the other a taxidetmist, so when the old chap was called in by Bill to assist in other elements of the case, he naturally recommended his young mate for the bust. Similarly where there was an easy quid to be made for little input old john brought along his university colleague Cedric Stanton Hicks for his share of the SM spoils. Sir Ced had just been cleaned up in a messy divorce, then found himself saddled with a new bimbo to support and a mansion in the hills to maintain. Unlike nowdays, mates knew how to look after their pals in those days Clive and no one left their mates behind.

  627. john sanders on October 21, 2020 at 1:03 pm said:

    Aplologies all, but my promised semi plagiarised John Moss factual accounts of 8/1 and 20/6/49 didn’t pass muster, either that or I didn’t press the go button which is just as likely.

  628. john sanders on October 21, 2020 at 11:17 pm said:

    Boris: in re your Kramer v Anon. (Cramer) notes on Paul Lawson’s SM hair samples being contaminated by nuclear fallout from the US 1946 Bikini atomic tests; a couple of questions we might have the old gentleman answer while his memory of past events are still lucid. We’ll need to know firstly whether the samples were obtained at the time of the body casting, if they were plucked or cut from the scalp and for what original purpose. Then most importantly details of relevant testing methods, where they were done and when; perhaps they were undertaken on his trip to the Continent in ’56 where advaced extraction techniques were available.

  629. The case is all sown up … and you, Dome, were almost there. Thank you all and good evening, it’s been a rare pleasure.

  630. john sanders on October 22, 2020 at 8:20 am said:

    Peteb: You’ve got two impeccable sources in Clive Turner-Walker and Tweed Daily (Newscorp) rag telling you that the Thomsons were in Melbourne on 29/11/48 for the Holden launch; they rarely get it wrong. You’ll also need to know that the make do FX designation didn’t come until later, but even dud 4711 wouldn’t know that.

  631. Back it up, squire, show me the money (link) ..

  632. john sanders on October 22, 2020 at 11:10 pm said:

    Peteb: You know I’m not into links and pretty pictures. From memory though, the FX Holden came about as late as 1960 when auto dealers used it as a means of distinguishing between the original ’48 and its look alike ’52 model that came with new front suspension. In late ’53 the first factory model designator came into being with the FJ special and its flash new grill. As for the newspaper coverage of the 29/11/48 Holden launch in Melbourne, all newspapers covered it, though the Tweed Daily (your local) would have been the only one (if true) to mention that the Thomsons were amongst the invited guests.

  633. This is no mention of the Thomson’s at the new car unveiling at all … none, zero, nada .. sweet f.ck all in fact. It’s just another example of the standard Sanders bullshit … and speaking of duds, mate, you’re the template. Nothing you say ever has any merit. But you’re keeping Dome’s numbers ticking so there’s that.
    Meanwhile, the party’s over here. Check link.
    Read it and weep.

  634. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 3:19 am said:

    I sure hope for his sake, Peteb’s new recruit ‘theslydog’ doesn’t dare to mention that Lyons was 15 to 20 yards from SM as opposed to ‘stripes Strapps’ 10 yards, which would refute Bonzo’s claim of being closer. Tbt’s other welcome novice ‘Dork’ brought up some old history for most of us, though his news on the ticketing and ROK drop off would have come across more like a breath of fresh air to y’man; so he’s on safe ground for the moment.

  635. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 5:00 am said:

    Speaking of Sir Cecil Stanton Hicks, we have GC as ‘redacted’ now insisting that our knight should have known about Warfarin circa.1948 in terms of it’s potential as an assassisin’s tool. (uses debatable as disclaimer). On line history talks only about it’s use as an effective organic rat killer in ’48, but no advances with regards to human use until well after SM’s demise. In fact Ced Hicks would likely have known nought about ‘warfarin’ period seeing’s his part in WW2 was strictly a non combative role.
    You’ll pardon the pun, but infact the man does give an account of having served in the trenches as a private soldier in WW1, allbeit no confirmation of this claim has been found to date.

  636. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 8:38 am said:

    Peteb: Don’t forget that I keep your numbers ticking over too MATE. Pulling your ‘running dog’s’ post on The Tweed Daily’s coverage of the Thomson’s 29/11/48 invite to Fisherman’s Bend, then substituting it for favour of informative scoops by your clones Snoopdog? and his not so self assured cobber Snark? whatever, ala GC’s supporting pals.. Speaking of Clive and Cramer, would you believe that your good friend Derek had discussions back in 2013 with a nuclear fall out expert in Taiwan, name of Gordon Turner-Walker, Gawdstruth. (Want the link and a pic)

  637. I don’t know what it is about you, Johnno, but you’re like the mongrel dog my neighbour keeps to bark off the brown snakes .. lovely smelly old bitch she is, do anything for a scratch and tickle. Loves the attention, always at the back door looking for a scrap of food.
    She’ll eat anything, trouble is there’s always a mess she leaves behind. Piles of it. Day after day.

  638. peteb: errrm… are you saying you’re the snake? You lost me there.

  639. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 11:07 am said:

    So much for Snoopdog’s romp in the park with Peteb, an invitation to the ball and other glad tidings. It might be known that Bonzo Bowes offered me such a deal after I’d been on the job less time than he. Be warned, he is not one to tolerate opinions of those he can’t manipulate and control completely. In the dog’s thirst for humour and a good tempered master, I’d say he not only missed out on the bone, neither was there any friendly pat on the head in their parting.

  640. Yeah, Dome, I’m the deadliest in the business .. ask anyone. By the way, I see you are still headlining your interest in the Somerton Man case on your blog here, so how’s that going? Still working on it?

  641. Peteb: I’m always looking out for interesting research leads on the Somerton Man. And I’m almost always disappointed by how few I find.

    As far as the whole car scenario goes, I continue to think there’s likely to be a core of truth running through there – e.g. that it was George’s garage in Henley Beach the guy came to visit, but then diverted to meet in Glenelg instead, etc. But how that all fits in with the chemist’s car, the guy’s death, the Tamam Shud slip etc remains really hazy.

    I know there’s no shortage of people who read it all as evidence of conspiracy, but to my eyes it looks like a cover-up.

  642. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 11:54 am said:

    Nick: Or could it be Sapol, through R L leane doing an ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ deal. Case in point; between ’41 and ’49 the Freeman family had four known serious interactions with the filth including one involving intervention of aforesaid Det. Leane in ’43. The most serious of these involving a death, had an outcome that may have had a different outcome, truth be know. Enter the unamed businesman’s timely attendance at Angas St. HQ on 22/7/49 with a million to one chance ROK offering that Sgt. Leane was so desparate for in order to close the SM case. Stranger things happened in my own policing experience, but not with any regularity mind.

  643. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 12:15 pm said:

    ….and as an afterthought, Freeman’s chemists were known (varifiably) to be also connected with at least one, possibly two suppliers of patent (quack) medicines, most likely in contravention of pharmacy board guidlines. One in particular that contrived to fake another beach fatality (varifiable) and got away with it. We are not to know whether cops were complicit, though it would surely have been suspected. If you want the guts on that one, I have it.

  644. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 1:12 pm said:

    Nick: Not so hazy at all. For a start Feltus’ little Minx (not little) was a convenient piece of make believe based on newspaper stories, as was the fake brother-in-law who didn’t exist, what’s more it was Colin, not Jack (Ron Francis), Leane’s informant who was most likely in residence at 24A Jetty Rd. in ’48. Gerry gave us a clue in his fantasy yarn as to what it was based on; big capital letters from memory ‘Toro Toro Toro’ = Bull Bull Bull. For those who don’t know and don’t want to know, Feltus was the kingpin of a mob calling themselves ‘Inner Sanctum (Sanctimonious) which comprised notables like Cramer, Lawson, Ruffles, Elliott and others who alledgedly signed an ‘Official Secrets Act’ (suggested by CGC) type non disclosure pledge no less….. You going to post this Nick, no bothet to me!

  645. John Sanders: the post where the “Inner Sanctum” was mentioned is here: https://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2014/09/somerton-man-suitcase-contents.html

    His list of initials and pseudonyms: “Grace, TJ, JP, BT, BB, JR”, so no obvious PL there.

  646. NickP, cover up you say. Got a who and a why for that?

  647. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 10:39 pm said:

    Nick: ….and no Gerry Feltus, Laurie Elliott or Gordon Cramer for that matter, so perhaps Lawson aka ‘Henry’ also used a pseudonom as well, or was left off the list in keeping with the official secrets act rules and by-laws. Would that make sense?.

  648. john sanders on October 23, 2020 at 10:58 pm said:

    theslydog: You’ll have noted that your wise rejection of Bonzo’s invitation to hide your bone (bury) in a secret place (IP SFC) and the diatribe resoonse, has now gone like the dodo. So you now start on a clean page and you’ll do fine, just so long as you suck arse like you’re told!…

  649. john sanders on October 24, 2020 at 6:45 am said:

    I recall some long gone sleuth’s logical explanation for the Henley Beach rail mix up, could easily have involved SM’s unfamiliarity with Adelaide beach scene, there being at least three Jetty Roads to contend with and each having individual access means from Adelaide Station. Had he been a denizen of Melbourne, Broken Hill, Sydney or the bush, SM could be excused for his ‘getting off at Redfern’ blunder as none of the above cities or towns have listings for any Jetty Road in their respective high density settled areas…PS. The tiny port of Dromana Vic. is one town that does have a Jetty Road so we can assume that it might once have led down to a Jetty. Queenie Thomson hailed from around there so it’s likely that in their courting days, she and ‘the big fella’ knew of it’s romantic attractions.

  650. john sanders on October 24, 2020 at 7:44 am said:

    Nick: I’m certain there were other members and perhaps some, the less super-silly-assed were part of one group and deemed qualified for t’other. I recall that a highly respected CM past poster Sue D’Nimh being once connected with DA’s mob searching for a certain C&F ROK. She set up her own neat ‘anemptyglass’ web site about 2016, but it was subsequently sold for debt to Gordon Cramer, then trashed in a fit of spiteful rage apparently. As for ‘Four Fat Ladies’ who were also active in the early days, they seem to have lost their appetite for SM oversaturation and left the mess to the less faint hearted…And so we that are left have gone cold.

  651. john sanders on October 25, 2020 at 12:44 am said:

    Largs Bay, Semaphor, Grange, Henley Beach, Glenelg, Brighton; all spaced evenly along a 7 mile stretch of Adelaide foreshore in 1948 according to the old Fuller’s street directory. All were drawcards for intending local or out of town beach goers with their busy jetties, similar means of transport from town eg., rail, tram, bus or taxi. We might do well to consider Somerton Man’s dilemma in a new light and to appreciate what he was confronted with on that Tuesday upon leaving the train. Armed only with rough directions to his desired destination via ‘Jetty Road’ hastily copied from a fellow traveller’s Adelaide beach map onto the cover of his pocket ROK in an improvised short hand…

  652. john sanders on October 25, 2020 at 4:27 am said:

    BROWN FAUN TROUSERS in big bold letters could well be a clue to our fiction writer’s intriguing Tamam Shud finale to his latest ‘Riddle of the Sands’ novel which has been summarised at Tbt for review. FAUN is known to the ancient Greeks and Romans and takes the form of a lustful horned billy goat man (bit like your modern internet TROLL). The number 35 is a similatly named ogre in other ancient cultures, and if true could also represent horny old Prestige Johnson’s age in 1948.

  653. john sanders on October 25, 2020 at 10:54 am said:

    I T T M S A M S T G A B, If the last code line equates to: Interchange, Transit, Terminal, Moseley, The Broadway, Sth. Esplinade, Alvington, Mansion, Somerton?, Sailing Club?, Sand dunes (cross S no thoroughfare)?, Turnabout, Glenelg, Along, Beach…then it fits with a gent from the bush, come in to attend a dead mate’s wake at The Broadway pub on Tuesday 30/11/48. Next morn he misses the train home to Hamley Bridge due to ticket mix up with Henley Beach (same booth and platform). Takes a bus back out to Glenelg intent on doing a pre-plotted scenic walk of two miles to the Hove dunes and back…Some will see this as merely the variation on a theme I put forward earlier (more than once). It might be worth some thought and comment, perhaps not.

  654. milongal on October 25, 2020 at 10:02 pm said:

    There’s a jetty in each of the places you mention, but not a jetty road at each of them (Semaphore doesn’t have one, “Semaphore Road” leads to the jetty), and I don’t think Henley (Main St) has one either. In fact, just checking SandsMac and there’s only the 3 jetty roads (Brighton, Glenelg, Largs) – Grange is “Jetty St”. All of them (as you point out) on different rail lines – I think Brighton was on “Marino (Rocks)” (later Noarlunga, today Seaford line), Glenelg was it’s own (tram) line (originally it was heavy rail), Grange was on the Henley Line, and Largs was on the Outer Harbor (sic) line.

    Not that it’s important, but I would describe them as evenly spaced “in pairs” – Largs/S4, Grange/Henley, Glenelg/Brighton.

    Not sure if I ever mentioned it here (I don’t think I did because I came up with nothing), but I did pore over railway maps at one stage hoping to hind stations that matched bits of the “code”. Q is obviously problematic (Queenstown doesn’t have a train line and as best I know never has had (Port Adelaide and Alberton do – but they’re on the Outer Harbor line (which shares the line with Henley to Woodville)

    I also considered if ITT was something like “I’ll take train maybe, ….” – but didn’t go anywhere…..and I really think the last letter (or possibly as many of the last 3 letters) look like a signature…..possibly even a flourished R rather than a B

    Ranty as ever….

  655. john sanders on October 25, 2020 at 11:42 pm said:

    Milongal: You may need to get hold of older rail link maps to get the guts on the Jetty Road scenario etc. in the days of horse and cart, any sort of rail feeder leading down to a sea wharf extension was ‘Jetty Road’. From memory the on/off loading platform before Henley Beach terminus (later abandoned) was signnposted as such. As for Cramer’s ubiquitus flourished R which you seem to now favour, then why stop there; We could exchange V for the I before T T and D to replace O with it’s new X3258 phone number in micro on the vertical post too. I wonder if we might now re consider saddle nose Fedupimov who might give the new SM images a run for their money and the brilliantly conceived Danetta code, which I believe is coming hack into vogue.

  656. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 3:09 am said:

    It’s a fact, says Cramer, a man known to fib through his teeth, that it is extremely unusual for a man of the SM’s estimated age (40/45) to have been missing so many of his teeth ‘in 1948’. I’d like to know on which planet this worthy might have spent his 73 years of pearly white existence. Most men of SM’s age would have been well short of naturals and many would have had full denture sets in Australia in the post war era. I suspect that their wives were likewise so indentured, which if true, might dispell belief that missing molars in adult males could be attributed to bad dental hygene during both wars. Go and get fitted with falsies Gordon; they’ll suit your phony persona.

  657. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 4:46 am said:

    For those interested in a little trivia re ‘Jetty Road’ Henley Beach, known as Main St. for yonks, was the childhood domicile of SA Attorney General John Rau, the bloke who was adamant that SM would be exhumed over his dead body. John’s father Arthur and his grandma Margaret KEANE, had lived there from the twenties, dad serving with 352 Sqn. RAAF in WW2. On his RTA in ’45 he caught his wife Mabel in frangrant delicto with some stud from Pt. Perie (she didn’t learn) and Art married John’s mum in the mid fifties?..Not saying that ex AG Rau had any notion about the possibility of being caught up in an embarrassing family affair not of his making, but one could be well justified in asking whether his uncle Somerton might not be a little pissed with efforts to keep him down.

  658. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 8:49 am said:

    Not that it means much to me, but to some it could well be the Holy Grail. It is on NAA file that John Rau’s German born elderly namesake relative was suspected by some of supporting a post WW1 German retaliation. A supportive police report was enough to have his old age pension restored although in 1986 some parts of the long dead man’s file were blocked for security reasons. Just goes to show to what lengths a barrister at law and budding politition will go to in protecting the good family name from exposure, no matter if it related to kin born in the 1850s.

    Prosper’s numerous ads are well known by now and they keep coming back to drive us nuts, especially ones like Peteb’s frequently trotted out gem about his wanting to spend fifteen hundred ill gained nicker on a bungalow in a better location. Most would be aware that Prosper was fishing and the flash of colour was likely part of some fiddle allbeit just before SM’s DDay. Who knew that John Rau’s dad Arthur and Prosper were the same age, both being ex servicemen and most interesting it seems that both were living in Main St. Henley Beach in 1947 at least.

  659. john sanders: in 1947, Prosper’s Henley Beach address was indeed 7 Main St (which, then as now, isn’t a very long street). Do you know what number Arthur Rau’s house was?

  660. 04 Jan 1947: WANTED car, tourer, sedan. or rdst., reasonable order. £50 to £200, by ex serviceman for business: consider buck-board Full particulars as condition and price. Will inspect 50 mile radius Adelaide. Thomson, 7 Main st.. Henley Beach, after 1 pm, or Sunday.

    22 Jan 1947: CAMERA Hertie F.4.5 lens, 5 speed shutter, takes 16 pictures on 127 film, small, compact job, carrying case, films, exchange for crystal water set and fruit set. Thomson, 7 Main st., Henley Beach

    22 Jan 1947: UTILITY Bedford coupe front. 10 h p.. 1935. NSPR £210. appearance as new. exchange for 8 to 14 h.p. car. 1938 or later. Thomson. 7 Main st.. Henley Beach.

    27 Jan 1947: WANTED 10 to 14 h.p. car or utility, urgent, pay your price, cash or take over terms. Home week-end or inspect anywhere. Thomson, 7 Main St., Henley Beach

    01 Feb 1947: MORRIS 10-h.p. 1940 saloon, series M, similar, as now being sold as 1947 models, for £635, previously owned by Melbourne doctor, exceptionally well kept. Just driven overland by me, averaged 38
    m.p.gal., performed perfectly, NSPR £288 Exchange for larger sedan and cash diff. Thomson, 7 Main st., Henley Beach

    15 Feb 1947: WANTED, 1928 to 1932 American sedan, tourer or roadster, pay good price. Thomson, 7 Main st., Henley Beach, week-end.

    15 Feb 1947: MANTEL 5-valve Mickey Mouse, good interstate performance, perfect order, modern plastic cabinet, cost £19/19/-. accept £14 cash. Thomson. 7 Main st, Henley.

    22 Feb 1947: CAMERA, Kodak, folding. No. 2A, double lens, as new; sell or exchange for auto. .22 rifle. Thomson. 7 Main st, Henley Beach

    25 Aug 1948: ELECT. eng., 50, many years’ exp., foreman, manager, contracts, maintenance, diploma “A” grade, Vic. licence, ex. refs. 7 Main st.. Henley

  661. 23 Jun 1933: The following applications for renewal of billiard licenses were also dealt with by the Adelaide Licensing Court on Thursday : —
    Ceduna. — Cyril T. Morgan.
    Cummins. — Arthur B. Rau.
    Kimba. — James L. Ware.

    29 Jun 1934: A new billiards licence has been issued to Arthur B. Rau, of Cummins.

    12 Jul 1935: Renewals — Billiards.— Cleve, Robert J. Bowshire ; Cummins, Arthur B. Rau.

    20 Oct 1944: Leading Aircraftman Arthur Rau has been spending leave with his wife and family at Pirie West.

    12 Sep 1946: Except where otherwise stated, decrees nisi for divorce were granted in the following undefended actions: —
    Arthur Bruce Rau, of Main street, Henley Beach, against Mabel Edith Rau, of Mansom street, Port Pirie, on the ground of adultery with Wallace Henry Yates, of Victor Harbor.

  662. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/118358594/arthur-bruce-rau
    Arthur Bruce Rau of 452 Spitfire Squadron RAAF.
    Birth 17 Sep 1911 Evanston, Gawler, South Australia, Australia
    Death 7 Apr 1983 (aged 71) Adelaide, Adelaide City, South Australia, Australia

    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/194525777/mabel-edith-warner
    Mabel Edith Siviour Warner
    Birth 4 Aug 1915 Cummins, District Council of Lower Eyre Peninsula, South Australia, Australia
    Death 14 Apr 1982 (aged 66) Port Pirie Regional Council, South Australia, Australia

  663. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 10:38 am said:

    Nick: Excellent, could’ve come from my old notes destroyed when Gordon Cramer started a fire under Sue d’ Nimh’s ‘anemptyglass’, but for the Rau’s holiday and the billiards bit which I can’t recall seeing.

    I’m not sure I checked with S & M for Main St. back then which of course terminated at Jetty Road station, last on the old Henley Beach line. I’ll try to get Derek’s 1946/47 search up and have a gander unless you’ve done so..?

  664. https://www.facebook.com/422543974561696/posts/memories-of-my-parents-john-joseph-doudle-and-alice-cora-wilsonwritten-by-kathle/1423416161141134/

    When wireless needed replacing with cabinet model, Mother wanted a Stromberg Carlson, Dad brought home on trial a Healing. Oh Boy! The silence was deafening! Mother must have “won” because a Stromberg Carlson, From Arthur Rau, Cummins, was duly installed.

  665. john sanders: everything I have (which isn’t genuinely a great deal) is here, so please feel free to look Arthur Rau up in S & M etc.

  666. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 11:24 am said:

    OK, we have a Mrs. G.W. Rowe at 15 Main Street which is probably Gertrude Rau who should come up being related to Authur Bruce’s father John and Grandfather Johan Gustav of NAA security file fame. Four doors east of Prosper’s address and a little more digging this end will come up with some additional detail I suspect.

  667. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 11:44 am said:

    Nah, Bruce William James bn.1890 was Arthur’s pop. It was Bruce’s missus Margaret Alice bn.1890 who’s dad was John Keane from Barossa and they married in 1910. Back a little and we’ll get to the Germans who were Port Adelaide and Gawler folk.

  668. NAA says: (date range 1939-1948, no digital copy available)
    RAU ARTHUR BRUCE : Service Number – 48442 : Date of birth – 17 Sep 1911 : Place of birth – GAWLER SA : Place of enlistment – ADELAIDE : Next of Kin – RAU MABEL

  669. 03 Aug 1933: CUMMINS
    About 40 friends gathered at the home of Mr and Mrs. Alec Greenshields to celebrate the coming of age of their eldest son, Cyril. A competition was won by Miss Melva Siviour. Mr. Ernie Laube and Mr. Arthur Rau supplied the dance music. Mr. R. T. Torr was M.C.

  670. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 1:16 pm said:

    One might consider that when Derek first sought the exhumation order through the appropriate avenue (AG’s Office) in 2011, John Rau would have sought all available records from police indices and followed it up for favour of approval or rejection along normal lines as might be expected. As a barrister by calling he would naturally have been very thorough which would have extended to Cipher Mysteries online threads without any doubt. As soon as he saw things to do with Prosper’s Main street adds and names like Keane staring at him, one might well imagine the basket almost choking on his lunch break pasty, especially as he grew up in the very street. His highschool at Henley being less than five hundred metres from the old home place would have given the mugger no choice but to put a big red line through the application, with notation “Not On Your Sweet Nellie Mate”.

  671. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 1:29 pm said:

    Cummins (Tumby Bay) is Feltus country, wonder Gerry didn’t pick up on the name Rau from his folks.

  672. John Sanders: I’m just interested to know what Arthur Bruce Rau was doing to get by in Henley Beach post WWII. Not a lot of Spitfires to be flown there.

  673. john sanders on October 26, 2020 at 3:05 pm said:

    Yeah 452 Squadron don’t tell me..I’ve found some scraps of paper with names to follow up including relatives of Rau’s in Broken Hill. If it’s of interest Bob Bungey DFC of Somerton was Squadron Leader of 452 until Bluey Truscott DFC took over and after him I think Edgar C. Johnson DFC and two bars from memory. Bluey died in ’43 in NT, Edgar Johnson went onto be an Air Marshall. Poor Bob who had lived at 3 Tarlton St., a hundred yards from 90A Moseley St., and had just lost his wife to leukemia, blew his brains out just down the beach from Alvington in early June ’43 leaving Const. Moss to clean up the mess and get his critically wounded year old lad to the Crippled Children’s home across the street… Spitfire Leader by Richard Bungey 77 would be a good read and a CD comes with it I’m told.

  674. milongal on October 26, 2020 at 10:06 pm said:

    The thing with confusing Jetty Road for Main St, is that we have one of those conundrums we invariably find in this case where you have to simultaneously believe 2 opposing ideas – namely that SM was unfamiliar with Adelaide and assumed Jetty Rd referred to Henley even though Main St being formally Jetty Rd (if it was) would only really be known by people who had been to Henley and seen the sign. So if there is an old map that refers to it as Jetty Rd that he would be likely to have seen, or if some local is incorrectly advising him then *maybe*, but otherwise how does he even know the wrong Jetty Rd exists?

    With the obvious caveat/disclaimer that wen know S&M is not always up to date and/or accurate (and that they might list owner rather than tenant in some circumstances)…
    Rau went to Henley High (off Henley Beach Rd) which supports the idea they were local…..but can’t find them in Henley itself in SMd (I’ve had a look at random volumes from 1930 to 1970). I have:
    1950 & 1960 & 1964 & 1970 RAU A. B. Ferryden Park (Western Suburbs, inland from Henley)
    in 1946 there’s a Mrs E M RAU in Mile End (First suburb from City of Adelaide toward Henley) (possibly Mabel Edith?)
    It caught my eye that there’s a W Rau (Driver) at 64 Shierlaw St Richmond – I’m sure this is coincidence, but I think this is 2 doors up from a JJ Keane who we’ve mentioned in passing before….

    That said, I think there were appartments on Main St that might have been short-term staying (if Rau is holidaying away from Pirie or is in the process of moving to Adelaide and living there while he finds more permanent residence).
    Incidnetally, 7 Main St comes back as “Miss Ward” – who we may have mentioned before (name rings a bell) – but might be in looking up specifically that address before

    And re the Billiard License at Cummins – that’s on the Eyre Peninsula – about a day’s drive from Adelaide (other side of the Spencer Gulf from Pirie, and considerably South)

  675. milongal on October 26, 2020 at 10:33 pm said:

    Forget EM being Mabel Edith (there’s a lot of EM Rau)

    @JS: I hve AB Rau’s father as Bruce William James RAU d1960 Gawler (not John).
    Which as a side means he has an older brother Douglas Keath (sic)
    and younger siblings Daphne Alice and Leslie Leonard

  676. milongal on October 26, 2020 at 10:37 pm said:

    @JS: Your Edgar Johnson wouldn’t be that same EC Johnson? I assume that was sort of why you’ve included him (sorry if I’m a bit slow)

  677. john sanders on October 27, 2020 at 3:52 am said:

    The difficulties with tracing Arthur Bruce’s post war activities are examplified by a seemingly determined attempt to bury him good and deep to kerp away the flies. I’d be surprised if he didn’t stay with his pre war occupation of involvement in SP operations, as evidenced by the billiard hall licence at Cummins alongwith dealing in receiver radios and expertise in electronics. It would seem more likely that the ’47 S & M people made a double blunder at the 15 Main St address and B. W. Rau was recoded as G. W. Rowe, easy enough for me and milongal is hunting around town trying to expand on some crooked ex polititians attempts to put us off.

    As for Bruce William James Rau’s wife Margaret and the all important Keane side, it might have proven rather difficult in light of her sixteen sibling family (1884-1906) background; but made easier by the simple fact that we already know most of family and the Dicker rels. from our old disasterous ‘two new Keane’ thread. Could bw we have additional connections to illegal gaming, unlicensed radios, if memory serves me correctly. We might also be mindful that the Barossa Keanes were Kains until 1886, then by 1908 John Richard had moved his tribe to Adelaide where He died in 1935.

  678. john sanders on October 27, 2020 at 8:21 am said:

    milongal: Most of the Rau/Kean mob are covered at Willaston cemetery, not Arthur who’s down Enfield way with no sign of a lady who would be ex AG John’s mum. Notice he’s cleverly arranged for no family background to polute his fine online bio…..As for ‘Johno’ Johnson RAF, no not related to ‘four fingers’ Edgar Johnson.

  679. john sanders on October 27, 2020 at 12:10 pm said:

    A gut feeling let me down with the Rau/Rowe deal for 15 Main street which turns out to be a blessing in disguise as it confirms that those two related families tie in with the Kean/Kain clan to form a close knit blood relationship. Better still the revelation that old County Cork born Patriarch John Richard Kean lies at rest in the tiny Willaston, Gawler cemetery with the second and third string Rau mob is quite encouraging. In the words of old Zulu hero Colour Sergeant Bourne, “There’s thousands of them” so all we have to do is to consentrate on the third generation and come up with a viable contender for a T. Keane or two amongst them (unlikely bonus) to sort the wheat from the chaff. It’s on with the motley then and no truer words spoken, if you get my drift.

  680. john sanders: even though we know the date when Arthur Bruce Rau got divorced, we don’t know when they actually separated (it would surely surprise nobody if his wife’s affair had started during the war). So it’s entirely possible that ABR was staying with some friends or relatives in Main street, Henley Beach, right? I guess the place we would (eventually) be able to find this would be in the 1947 Australian census.

  681. john sanders on October 27, 2020 at 1:35 pm said:

    Nick: You certainly have a point, but to contend that he might only have been at the address temporarily is in doubt when one considers his 1943 RAAF sign up locality of nearby Grange, as opposed to Gawler where many of his family had moved to and that he ran a billiard hall in far off Cummins way back in the thirties Truth is we just don’t know but I still feel comforted in the knowledge that son john went to school just half a click from Main Street. It also turns out that two of his aunts married into Rowe families, which of itself connects with number 15. I guess the best way to find out is to pull his WW2 file which may help, or as you say local electoral rolls and see where it takes us….

  682. john sanders on October 27, 2020 at 2:36 pm said:

    Up date of sorts concerning John Rau QC is that he still resides in Henley Beach but his home address although restricted could be Seaview Road; though must take care as another John Rau (electrician) is in nearby Military Rd., likely a relly. I have his PO box and home/office emails and phone contacts which are all in the public domain. Oh and John is said to be Keane on gardening, cooking and reading non fiction (sorry Peteb and Gordon).

  683. milongal on October 27, 2020 at 10:52 pm said:

    @JS – not sure how well you know Adelaide, but Gawler (these days part of metropolitan Adelaide) was a district in its own right encompassing Willaston (and to my mind Two Wells, Mallala, Virginia and Hamley Bridge (which you may recall as being touted as possible mix-ups with Henley Beach – in fact from memory there was a train station at Hamley Bridge, though I don’t remember whether I worked out if you could easily reach it from Adelaide railway station (it would be recorded somewhere on this site, so I’ll have a search)). (not far) beyond Gawler to the NNE you hit Tanunda and Nuriootpa – the Barossa Valley. I don’t know the exact history, but I associate Willaston and Lyndoch more with Gawler than the Barossa (even though Angaston is clearly closer to the Barossa – so perhaps I’m confusing it with Willaston).
    Slightly straighter North (through Kapunda) you get to the “other” Northern Wine district – the Clare Valley (which I think also gets a mention in some of the stuff we’ve been digging through). Point I’m getting to in a roundabout way is that if the Rau’s are all ex-Gawler and the Keane’s are all ex-Barossa then they’re not all that far apart (and if they have farming backgrounds likely mixed at rural markets and shows from time to time).
    Interesting that Arthur is down Enfield way, but if he was the only metro-Adelaide of the clan it’s probably one of the most likely places to end up (Enfield is other side of town to Henley, but there isn’t really a cemetry I can think of in that area (although Cheltenham, West Tce, Brighton and probably Centennial Park would be just as close if not closer – not that any of them are any more or less logical).

    Regarding the Henley connection….I think AB Rau (that’s not bad for the flourished AB/AR at the end of the code?) recently moved to the area, and might be staying in temporary appartment (or even a holiday house), and later moved somewhere more permanent (I have him in Ferryden Park by 1950 (haven’t worked exactly when he apperars there, but from memory after ’48).
    I also have him on the electoral roll in Gawler in ’41 (can’t see the record, but can see the existence of the record)).
    FindMyPast lists his birth as Evanston (which these days is a suburb within the Gawler council, but back then would be vast open space). I can’t find a record of a hospital in Evanston (not helped that google finds one in Evanston, Illinois – and called North Shore 🙂 ). I’m not certain whether “Place of birth” refers to “where parents were living at the time” or “actual locationl (normally hospital) where birth occured”.

    According to the ever misleading ’49 S&M, we have Rau’s at:
    Balaklava (AC Rau)
    Gawler (DK Rau 21st st) (HGW Rau 20th St)
    Longwood (AC Rau …gardener)
    McLaren Flat (Wm….junior labourer (I think))
    Whyalla (Lawrence A Rau)

    And in the metro area:
    Mitcham (AL Rau 4 Tutt st)
    Everard Park (AL Rau 12 Grove Ave)
    Flinders Park (EA Rau)
    Wayville (J Rau, Taxidermist, 7 Goodwood Rd)
    Colonel Light Gardens (J Rau 12 Tidworth cres)
    Torrensville (Mrs EA Rau 40 East St)
    And the Shierlaw St Richmond one mentioned before

    Noticing that occasionally names in general are listed in the index in one order and in the street listing in another (eg EA Rau is also AE Rau – so don’t put too much weight on initial ordering).

  684. john sanders on October 28, 2020 at 6:50 am said:

    I’m certain that I’ve eliminated all john Rau’s great uncle Keane(s) from contention, if that had been what tge AG’s exhumation denial was based on. In fact his grand mother Margaret’s Keane brothers were all too old apart from young Horace (04) who’s cleared. That doesn’t necessarily exempt John A. who was older brother James Edward’s first born (1907) and who has managed to defeat my searches thus far. It seems that another John (Jack) was born in 1916, so maybe Beatrice Marie Keane nee Rowe’s first issue didn’t live long enough to have a death record. The old dear was a widow of sixty years when she passed on at 105 in ’95.

  685. john sanders on October 28, 2020 at 3:10 pm said:

    For those genealogy lovers into family trees and work connecting charts, it’d be a fairly straight forward task to connect S. A. Attorney General John Rau, from his grandfather Bruce William and father Authur Bruce’s immediate family through to the SM finish line. It involves participation by South Australian Museum boss Herbert Hale and his most able co-opted field team J. B. Cleland, C. S. Hicks, Norm Tindale with assistants Alan Rau, Charles Rau and last but not least John James Rau, who mentored a ‘Keane’ young Paul Francis Lawson to take over his role as chief taxidermist in the late thirties. It was Hale and Cleland, through CIB Chief W. O. Sheridan (see press) and Snr. Det. Sgt. Geoffrey Leane (not Lionel) who must have set up the SM dud bust ID sting in my opinion, but to what end, I have no definitive notion…as yet.

  686. milongal on October 29, 2020 at 4:13 am said:

    NB: the Hamley Bridge / Henley Beach thought seems to have come up in relation to Mangnoson and Alma:

    http://ciphermysteries.com/2013/11/01/keith-mangnosons-first-near-death-experience#comment-346379

  687. milongal on October 29, 2020 at 4:17 am said:

    also re the other J Harkness (and Fedosimov??):
    http://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-358530

    and also on a long 2018 post:
    “Incidentally, while looking up SAR stuff on Wiki I found a suggestion that Hamley Bridge was listed as a post-WWII route from Adelaide Railway Station….”

  688. john sanders on October 29, 2020 at 5:08 am said:

    The mistakes made by John B. Cleland in attempts to cover-up his involvement in the Somerton Man death are now more obvious and provable than when raised initially some time back. It is unfortunate that no one then, nor since has raised doubts on the great man’s related claims which stand out as fibs even moreso now that his motives are more clearly defined. NB the following examples in support:-

    1. J C claimed to have found the TS slip in an easily missed fob during his search of SM’s trousers and had difficulty in finding it again, to absolve cops of any tardiness.
    2. J C claimed not to know what Tamam Shud meant; yet he was multi lingual and must surely have known the Persian word for ‘The End’ which later when informed, said it supported his view, that in all probability SM had suicided hence his farwell.
    3. J C did not let cops in on his find for 5 weeks, an ommission based on not having yet decided whether there would be need to go ahead with the ROK back-up ruse.
    4. J C could not name a likely COD with any confidence. Cleland was a pathologist and an authority on exotic potions known to him from his anthopological studies. He was also a world authority on antipodean toadstools plus divers organic/plant based poisons like curare.
    5. J C Having a need to access the body before it’s disposal and becoming manic when prevented. He was not interested in a brain that he knew to be missing; in fact he was likely intent on planting a seed in the cavity, not harvesting tissue.
    6. J C erred with regard to his misidentificatiin of the ROK dump car, timing, place and proposed method of placement therein, plus later handover story.
    7. J C Making bold claim to the effect that SM was obviously a Britisher. Had he had not seen the body until at least March ’49, by which time such accurate profiling would not be impossible. SM was probably not of British ancestry based on this.

  689. john sanders on October 29, 2020 at 7:03 am said:

    Looks look like John James Rau’s son Alan and not Paul Lawson, took over as top taxidermist at the SA museum in ’39, a post he held til the fifties or later. By then Paul seems to have gravitated to entertaining fossil search archeologists in field studies. He had been assigned to do the bust as a one off for his boss Herb Hale who had himself originally signed on for the SM job at Cleland’s urging. Paul would certainly remember working with the Rau’s and must be well familiar with modern day AG John Rau rejecting Derek Abbott’s exhumation petition. I wonder if he has anything on his mind worth airing for peace of mind.

  690. john sanders on October 29, 2020 at 8:49 am said:

    Milongal: Hamley bridge was positioned conveniently to be used as a switch depot for several interconnecting inter/intra state wide and narrow gauge lines, as well as being the inland railway marshalling yard closest to Adelaide. It’s usefulness was reduced with introduction before the WW2 of a common gauge but it’s lease of life renewed during the war years for troop movement re supply and munitions. Even though I was based closeby in the mid sixties, I can’t recall ever passing through there and I had not heard of the place until you introduced it, as per your kindly reminder. Like to visit one day; just picture it ‘Country town with willows & squares and farmers bouncing on barrel mares…..and 1860 over the doors &c’. (Slessor).

  691. john sanders on October 29, 2020 at 11:44 am said:

    milogal: As an adendum to the Henley Beach/Hamley Bridge conundrum, I do believe that my previous related post has an air of some credibility in view that both services likely sharing the same XX ticket box purchase and platform 9 departure point. I know that over many years people hold the wrongly held view that the found Henley Beach ticket was not punched, as offered by Feltus in his flawed assessment. If one cares to analyse the newspaper reporting of the case, it becomes clear that most held the view that the departure platform access was in fact punched. This confirms that the ticket holder had gone through the gate to board, but never did for some reason. a reasonable assumption would seem to be as I suggested, that he only realised the mix up then by a check of his ticket and/or turned back upon finding that the morning service to Hamley Bridge had already departed…

  692. milongal on October 29, 2020 at 11:01 pm said:

    With the obvious dislcaimer that the 40s/50s are (well) before my time…..
    And that railways in SA have changed significantly since then (the abolishment of routes, and various gauge changes, the casino etc etc)…..

    I *think* the ticket offices were at the Northern End, Western Side of the concourse (where there used to be access to the Festival Centre – back then II don’t know if there was an entry there there back then (but from memory I think that’s where the city baths would have been). Roughly in the spot where these days the old clock (and I think a historical display) is. I assume that the gates to the platform were still roughly in the same location they are now (Halfway between North Tce and the ticket boxes, although I don’t think the entrance from the tram stop (down the stairs) existed, but rather the main entry was the ramp down from the corner of North Tce, and what today is Station Rd (I suspect this roadway didn’t exist then, but not sure) bringing you down just South of the middle, coming down in an Easterly direcion. Back then, the platforms would have been open air (the were enclosed in the 80s or 90s when the Casino (and possibly hotel?) took up residence). Most of the Southern end (eg the walkway under North Tce) is much newer, however near there I suspect the toilets (SOuthern End, Eastern Side) were likely the station Baths, and the newsagent next to them may have been a refreshment room. On the other side of the ramp was the Cloak Room (at some stage I think this might have been a refreshment room too), and I think more recently that has become a driver meal room (or at least a place for drivers to retreat from the public). Because Adelaide is not through-running, trains are usually left unattended at the station between runs (I have no idea whether this would have been the same in the age of steam, but I’d assume there were all sort of tasks associated with running engines around).

    Through the gates, I assume the platform numbering was much the same as the current set up (although not sure whether the current count of platforms (9) reflects that age). I remember reasonably major work around platform 9 in the 90s – but I can’t remember whether that was a platform extension (or similar) or (I think more likely) a re-alignment of the track coming out of the station. I have only the vaguest recollection of interstate trains (more specifically the Overland) using Adelaide Railway Station, as interstate movements were moved to Keswick Railway Terminal when it opened in the early 1980s (I have a vague idea that AdMet remained on a different gauge for some time (but pretty sure eventually the gauge was eventually converted from Broad to Standard – even on the metro lines, but not sure). I don’t remember whether the interstate station was part of the metro concourse, or whether it was a separate platform or two deeper into the Adelaide Yard (I have mixed recollections about this…..to the point where I can even imagine access to the interstate platforms almost directly off North Tce near Morphett St Bridge)
    In any event, I assume railways try to minimise the amount of switching required (even though I think by then it would have been centralised to the swtiching booth (might still be there, albeit obviously unused) between the branches where the Southern (Noarlunga/Brighton/Bridgewater/Mt Barker – these routes all leave to the South even if they end up travelling East) and Northern (Outer Harbor/Gawler/Henley Beach) split (just in front of the Torrens, near the Old Adelaide Gaol). So this meant as a general rule, service would leave from a particular platform.

    In my lifetime, I remember 9 platforms, with Gawler Central line typically using platforms 7,8,9. Outer Harbor 5-9, Grange 4-7 (not sure why they rarely used 8 and 9 – it shares track with OH), and the other routes 1-5 (they’re not services I often caught, so I couldn’t elaborate which ones where). There were also some other minor services (Dry Creek) and at different times some unusual ones that bypassed the yard and station (I remember a service that used to cut from Dry Creek onto the Outer Harbor line (I think entering somewhere near Alberton); and I’m almost certain that for a few years there were special Glanville to Goodwood services during the Royal Adelaide Show (September) – though I don’t ever remember catching one (I think it used to come to the edge of the Adelaide Yard, and then sweep around the swtiching booth from earlier onto the Southern lines)
    That said, the Adelaide yard (as any yard) has very many switches, and I think in extreme circumstances (breakdowns, maintenance and situations where for whatever reason a different train was allocated than expected) I think I have caught an OH service from almost any platform (probably not #1, and possibly not #2).
    I also vaguely remember there might have also been some non-metro special services still using the Railway station (definitely the Barossa Bluebird (platform 9), and there was a steam train that used to run the OH line on some weekends). I also remember the Bridgewater (possibly even Mt Barker) line being shortened to Belair – but I don’t recall whether this was more driven by patronage, gauge compatibility or something else (I do know that as Mt Barker has boomed more recently, there has been an increased voice to reopen the line to there (my mail is morning peak service buses are leaving Mt Barker Railway Station (their 1st stop) absolutely overloaded and not able to pick up through the town before even reaching the freeway).

    But we digress…..

    So the short version of that, is that the Northern lines (like Hamley Bridge) likely would have left from platform 9 or equivalent (however as I sort of implied above, I wouldn’t be surprised if interstate services (in particualr Vic) had a separate set of platforms sort of detached from the Railway Station concourse. Which actually makes sense, because visitors transferring from an interstate line would likely need to get a fresh ticket (and potentially use the baths) so there’s no real advantage having them on the same platforms….

    Incidentally, if Wiki is to be believed, Hamley Bridge ceased to be the Gauge Break in 1927 when Broad Gauge was extended to Gladstone.

    Finally, re the ticket. I’ve often tried to find out at what point the ticket should have been punched. At the gate or on the train? (until relatively recently (2000s) tickets on AdMet were required to pass through the gates at the station __but were not actually cancelled/activated/validated until onboard a train__. I have a vague recollection that in the most recent age of punched tickets (80s maybe 90s) you could get through the gates without a ticket and buy one from the conductor on board. Clearly SM’s ticket was purchased at the booth, but whether it was punched on the station or on the train (or somewhere else) is anyone’s guess. There’s a trove article that I think best describes the confusion, where it explains something like “…the ticket had been cancelled, but as he had a tramways ticket to Glenelg, presumably not used….”
    So my interpretation is that given the presence of 2 tickets that both appeared used, they assumed the one to the closer location was actually used (with as far as I can tell, very little to base that assumption on, other than the bus ticket must have been purchased on the actual bus, therefore whoever bought it had definitely been on the bus (and since the bus left after the train…..). But IMO we don’t actually know HE used any/either of them, and I’m not sure the St Leonard’s assumption is all that much better than a Henley assumption (and someone, possibly you JS suggested at one stage he may have caught the Henley train 1 stop – or jumped off in the yard – or something similar (in fact….I don’t know that the yard was necessarily fenced back then, and (especially if there was another interstate platform like I suggested above) it would be easy enough to leave the train while it’s slowly navigating the yard and make your way to a bus stop – possibly nearer Morphett St (or where UNISA CityWest is now), or even on West Tce). Remember the bus conductor could only agree the ticket had been sold in the first section, not the specific stop…..

    apologies for the long, and largely off topic rant

  693. john sanders on October 30, 2020 at 9:17 am said:

    I recall bringing up another case scenario of SM having being more familiar with the Henley Beach line set up than we might suspect, that is to say he may have bought his ticket for use on the Henley Beach to city trip later in the day. He would have known that Jetty Road platform (Main St.) was unattended and valid pre purchased tickets would avoid possibility being had up for fare evasion. I don’t necessarilly hold the view that this was the case, but I can’t see a problem with the concept. It should have occurred to Feltus to discuss such foibles with his Adelaide rail expert ‘Tiny’.

  694. john sanders on October 30, 2020 at 2:02 pm said:

    They don’t give a bloke too much help in the Rau camp, though it appears more likely as not that ex AG John Rau’s mum is Audrey Robinson bn. 1923 Gawler, which would have made her 36 at his birth. Sad part is that she passed in 2013 and unlike her old man Arthur Bruce Rau, has nothing to tell grave searchers at Enfield anthing about her past life. At the time of her passing her son was the member for Enfield, but did not reside there as we’re well aware.

  695. john sanders on October 31, 2020 at 6:24 am said:

    Ever heard of ‘The Unknown Woman’ who went missing from NSW in 2005, later gaoled in Qld without charge and later transfered from an Immigration detention centre at Port Augusta to Parkside in Adelaide suffering from a Bi Polar condition. She was suspected to be a German overstay having no valid papers but she had identified herself as Anna Schultze. Turns out our alien had spent most of her 39 years in Australia, worked a decade or more as a Qantas flight attendant and spoke with a clear Australian accent. After authorities in three states and the Feds realised their error and notified a releived family, they did a whip around and gave the not so frauline $2.2 mil. to deep six her false imprisonment claims including solitary confinement. Don’t know whether MP John RAU SC had known of Miss Cornelia RAU’s ordeal, I suspect so. Nothing like his own deep six solution for the Somerton Man’s exhumation which he would likely have invoked as a means to defray any assertions of RAU/Keane family connections to the 70 year old case.

  696. john sanders on November 1, 2020 at 1:04 am said:

    Familiarity of Latin alphabet capital letter forms, a propos the sign off flourish of our ROK code last line terminal letter points to it being a fairly normal B according to most mainstream analysis. Suggesting that it could be a letter R is incongruous with any variations revealed on line, though I’ll admit that Gordon Cramer’s long held contrary view in this case does seem to have found favour amongst his alter anonymous believers and some others. Perhaps we might consider toning down any assertions that such nonsence could only have come from by a devious and seriously demented mind.

  697. I’m the one who is supposed to be devious and seriously demented, and I object most strenuously to having my status undermined by such an ill-informed opinion. You haven’t heard the last of this.

  698. Peteb: happy to provide a character reference if it will help.

  699. Thank you … but we hardly know each other. Does that matter?

  700. Peteb: that’s never stopped other people for even a heartbeat, don’t see why the same rules shouldn’t apply to me.

  701. john sanders on November 1, 2020 at 1:24 pm said:

    Peteb: I know nothing. Still trying go get my head around the Russian translation for your ‘caravanserai’ deal which is apparently some KGB code word that you picked up from your old mate.

  702. john sanders on November 2, 2020 at 12:17 am said:

    Cleland reportedly found the Rubaiyat Tamam Shud slip sometime in March or April 1949, after having gained private access to clothing worn by the dead man, from West Terrace mortuary and it would seem that he was alone when this most fortunate event occurred so there was no eureka moment. This occasion must not to be confused with the well covered event in June at police heaquarters when, in company with chemical analyst Robert Cowan, John Cleland described trying on clothing, including some from the Keane suitcase, as well as the Stamina trousers worn by Somerton Man when found.

    A fair assessment of the above would include strong possibility that Cleland’s delayed report was in order to do so at an appropriate point in time so as to coincide with a stage of the police investigation most suited to his discovery. This would prevent accusations of his having planted the slip to support a case for suicide and put any like suspicions on the police along similar lines. His description of the concealment factor and chance find would also serve to take heat off the cops in any suggestions of negligence during their initial body search.

  703. milongal on November 2, 2020 at 1:19 am said:

    خان

  704. john sanders on November 2, 2020 at 7:12 am said:

    I guess the passage of time and a decent interval will allow mention of a possible skeleton in John Rau’s closet, with due respect for his long departed half sister Mabel. It seems that his father Arthur and first wife Mabel Edith nee Siviour lost their only child at birth in Tumby Bay hospital in 1935. There are no burial records for the poor infant so it may well be that a still birth was recorded and her passing is unlikely to be known at all within the Rau family.

  705. john sanders on November 2, 2020 at 7:40 am said:

    milongal: With respect, your comment is acknowledged. Some elaboration would have been desirable just for the record, and in consideration for those who aren’t so familiar with Farci as she is spoke!

  706. john sanders on November 3, 2020 at 12:47 pm said:

    Looks like four more turbulent years of the Don. Only thing worse would be four dreary months of dismal Joe. God help America.

  707. Tamara Bunke on November 3, 2020 at 9:41 pm said:

    We can only hope your judgement is premature, Sanders, and that the yanqui tyrant is on his way out.

    Hasta la victoria siempre!

  708. Tamara Bunke: I think if you were to take all your betting advice from online commenters, you would soon be sleeping under newspapers in a shop doorway.

  709. john sanders on November 3, 2020 at 10:08 pm said:

    Tamara: But not any newspaper and not a shop doorway. The rag would have to be the Washington Post and Dade/Miami’s Domino Park would be fine for a short siesta before the Yanqui filth moved you on.

    Viva Cuba Libre!

  710. john sanders on November 5, 2020 at 8:21 am said:

    We’re all aware of the dozen or so Keane derivitives in common use with early settlers, mainly immigrants to South Australia in the mid 1800s and convicts to other states from earlier times. My research suggests that variations are likely to occur even within the same family clans over several generations even. If thinking that those known to us namely Keane, Kean or Keen should be able to identify an owner of items so marked in the left suitcase, think again and keep looking.

  711. john sanders on November 20, 2020 at 5:31 am said:

    Re-Pete: In re your quest for a detailed title description of ‘Gentleman’ Alf Boxall’s tastefully stocked bookshelf, plus evidence of a Sister J.E. Thomson being resident and phone subscriber at 90A Mosely St. Glenelg by early 1947, I invite you to re visit my authoritive related dual posts, 10.58am & 6.16am of September 28th. Don’t understand how you could have missed them, you being on the Misc. thread yourself shortly before and shortly thereafter with stuff about plain brown duds in the evening and boxes of matches found on a dampish body from memory.

  712. Trouble is, Sanders old fellow, I don’t believe a word you write … and I mean that most sincerely.

  713. john sanders on November 20, 2020 at 11:57 am said:

    Re-Pete…..And of course I wouldn’t expect you to believe otherwise, but don’t let it concern you for I’ll concede that you’re not Robinson Crusoe by a long stretch. Nontheless I’ll just keep on hammering away, trying my level best to convince poor weak minded souls like your good self, to maybe better understand the difference between fact and fancy. If you persist in depending upon others, similarly deficient in natural intuitive skills to slake your thirst for knowledge, then you’ll be in good company for a long dry spell in an SM limbo land my man!…Sincerely Yours.

  714. It wasn’t that long ago, was it Johnno, when you wrote about the Thomson’s being present at the unveiling of a new car at the time of the unfortunate death of T Keane.
    Well, we took the trouble to try to confirm this sighting by visiting Trove and generally asking around .. but found nothing.
    Which reminded us of those earlier claims of yours that sent a Canadian colleague off chasing wild gooses.
    You see, old sport, I’m onto you … but by all means have your fun, like me you’re nought but a harmless old duffer with too much time on his hands.

  715. Peteb: ‘harmless’ is perhaps a bit of a stretch.

  716. john sanders on November 20, 2020 at 10:54 pm said:

    Re-Pete: You referring to snow geese surely, not gooses unless plurals are no longer cool, and they fly south in winter in a big ‘V’ formation from memory. Anyhow you will need to apologise to both Byron and Bob for providing similar false information on the Thomson ’47 phone connection and gentleman Alf’s book shelf selection, for their information aped mine, allbeit with less detail and a lot later. As for the Thomson’s being definately in Melbourne for the Holden deal on 29/11/48, sounds like a reasonable synopsis and I’ll give it some more thought. I also checked with Trove and for starters found that a bloke named Ben Chiffley attended along with some hundreds of potential car thieves..

  717. Which reminds me, NickP, do the yanks have the equivalent of the Aus National Archive? Been looking and getting nowhere.

  718. Peteb: as far as I know, the Americans don’t have anything even 10% as useful as the NAA (there are paywalled newspaper archives, but Trove is miles better). At least with a needle in a haystack you can kid yourself that one day you’ll come back with a bloody great magnet.

  719. A pity no pic exists of the bobby pin found in suitcase, If Dude is right and the tools were used to get into and steal cars it would have been bent out of shape.

  720. john sanders on November 21, 2020 at 2:49 am said:

    Peteb: Here you go, two quotes from Clive and one from each us on the hilarious Black Market Scenario thread, all dated 22/10. Can’t imagine anyone with a spirit of fairness puting a fibber spin on that, unless you have some previous attribrution . I certainly remember a ‘scenario’ with the Thomsons and SM meeting on the train after a trip to Melbourne. Perhaps the Holden opening day came up or maybe not; who cares?.

    Clive Turner :- ” I read somewhere that Prosper & Jessie were in Melbourne on Monday 29th November for a new Holden unveilling. (Tweed Daily 29th November, 1948) “.
    ” Nothing more on P & J, but, ‘Tweed Daily’ NSW via TROVE gives infomation on a Holden event.

    Peter Bowes :- ” Sanders mentioned that event, also that PT etc. were there, the old stirrer. ”

    Response from john sanders on CM Misc. 22/10 8.20am. :-
    ” Peteb: You’ve got two impeccable sourses in Clive Turner-Walker and Tweed Daily (News Corp) rag telling you that the Thomsons were in Melbourne on 29/11/48 for the Holden launch; they rarely get it wrong. You’ll also need to know that the make do FX designation didn’t come until later, but even Dud 4711 wouln’t know that.”

  721. john sanders on November 21, 2020 at 6:10 am said:

    Nick: I must confess that whilst I find the tenuous Inside Story doco’s claims for the Boxall-Jestyn-Thomson-TS/ROK Somerton Man death involvement having the same level of credability as your Beale treasure cache, I’m still hooked on the unwavering facination which it provokes. Any trained investigator worth his detective’s title might be appalled at how so many false leads created by hearsay and inuendo could still hold sway in theories vis. likely identity, death attribution, causation and so on. A properly constituted investigation of these crucial elements was deemed to have been carried out satisfactorily by Det. A/Sgt. R.l. Leane and his team of uncorruptables and also through the Coroner’s inquest derived therefrom. As a consequence of the post inquest events in late July 1949 there was only a few proceedural formalities involving the nurse’s uncertain nomination of a Lt. Alf Boxall for SM. This being quickly and effectively dismissed upon Alf being found and subjected to questioning by Sydney’s finest under caution no doubt. Thomas Cleland, had he so chosen, would most certainly have re-convened the inquest had he considered the Freeman? ROK handover and the nurse’s well intended though unreliable information to be of any assistance whatsoever…That be the end game as far as expectations for any forseable outcome is concerned by my estimations. Notwithstanding I still have a number questions that need answers on plottings and brewings of Sir John B. Cleland in some perhaps personally motivated issues not necessarily to do with the beach death perse. One or two people still living could help resolve this dilemma including Paul Lawson and Neil Day for starters.

  722. The gentleman doth protesteth to much, methinks.

  723. john sanders on November 21, 2020 at 1:54 pm said:

    There can’t be any doubt about Clive’s gentlemanly credentials. In my mind any perceived protestethstation was as a consequence of his promter’s inability to come to terms with the possibilty that the Thomsons could be in Melbourne and Glenelg/Somerton at the same time. There’s a sucker born every day…Barnum

  724. john sanders on November 22, 2020 at 9:03 am said:

    Peteb: So now you know where the wild goose goes, perhaps you might try this one on your esteemed Canadian Colleague? MM as a favour…..On the once free and most informative SA Genialogy site we have a Rita Kathleen Chapman of Park Holme, near to Somerton, who is cross indexed with the name ThompsEn (K.M’s mate?). She is also listed in Centenial Park records for her presumed burial or cremation on 13/4/88 at age 85….But hang on; what about the Rita Kathleen ThompsOn happily ensconsed alonside hubby Oscar Edward Thompson down at Noaralinga, whose death is recorded also for 13/4/88….If we can sort this one out by pressing a few Jail break buttons on a smart board, then perhaps we can try something similar with Ellen May or Mary McLeish nee Harkness bn. 1924 or 28 just to get our currupted SM related files in order.

  725. john sanders on November 22, 2020 at 1:42 pm said:

    Repeateb: Re two million to one odds of finding garments from a second hand clothing store post war marked Kean, Keane (or Keanic) being in the order of two million to one odds. Obviously you and your toffee nosed crowd have never been in an op. shop. And anyhow what about the odds of Leane’s request for an ROK sans Tamam Shud slip on a Thursday and having one miraculously anonymously being delivered to his door step by Friday evening. London to a brick against in my estimation and of course the press wouldn’t have a bar of it either. Proof of the pudding being Les Wytkin’s copy that was conveniently dismissed as being a little over the top for safety.

  726. milongal on November 22, 2020 at 10:50 pm said:

    As ever a couple steps behind play….
    So, if J&P in Melb on 29th
    Catch the evening train back, arrives Adelaide early AM.
    Run into SM in the station (whether they know him or planned to meet him or other….)
    Convince him to abandon his plans to Henley (if he already has them), and go with them to Glenelg
    They explain the Somerton Bus goes from across from the station
    He makes his excuses, but jots down their number
    He makes his way to the Henley train, mulling it over, and decides “What the hey”
    He rushes to the bus stop and asks the driver whether the bus goes to Glenelg, and the bus driver agrees
    etc…..
    and then he ends up dead on the beach

    Couple of things to note before we argue about St Leonards bus vs Somerton bus. I drove buses for a couple of years and can recall several occasions where I might have accidentally misled passengers – or even when routes are so close explained that “you can wait half an hour, or you can come with me part way and walk the rest” (and as per my example above if he asks about “Glenelg” rather than “Somerton Park” it’s even more plausible.

    NB: originally I would have said travels with them (which is part of the reason he goes unnoticed (which I think I’ve floated similar before) – because he was not alone). The problem I have with that is that I can’t seem them catching the St Leonards bus to get to Moseley St when the alternate bus goes right past where they need to get to…..

  727. john sanders on November 22, 2020 at 11:00 pm said:

    Peteb: While we’re talking up proliferation of the Keane name in Commonwealth and Dominion countries as per your latest Tbt thread, we must never forget the Fatherland Keanes where it is said to rival Schmidt & Slitze in popularity. Brave and bold being it’s translation, almost like a dare if we go back to Detective Len Brown’s refreshment room suitcase….Oh and were you aware that Jessie Thomson’s remains are apparently held at two cemeteries, with both Centenial Park and Port Lincoln to have her. Perhaps your Dominion Colleage could get to tge bottom of that as well, if he’s not too busy.

  728. john sanders on November 23, 2020 at 11:21 am said:

    Had there been shenanigans afoot in respect of the ROK delivery to police HQ by a motorist on July 22nd with Les Wytkin’s unrequired fail safe copy almost exposing the ruse without quick thinking by the cops to bury it. This might well have been enough of its own to satisfy a case for suicide which the Coroner could sign off on. The nurse’s unplanned for appearance on 25/7/49 with her story on SM’s possible identity, might have been seen as a blessing in disguise to convince any suspicious press hounds that everything was above board afterall.

  729. john sanders on November 23, 2020 at 12:09 pm said:

    Peteb: Senator Brien McMahon was an up and comer American liberal democrat of staunch leftist principles and darling of the imaginary bleading heart Huxleyite social order, whose Atomic Energy Act was promulgated to ensure that civilians and not military warhawks might be better placed to halt prolifaraction of nuclear weaponry. The act was ratified and passed by both houses uncontested in late ’46, coming into effect on January 1st 1947 just a few short months before baby Robin McMahon Thomson made his way into a not so perfect ‘brave new World’. Mother must have seen this as assurance for his future well being which of course by 1984 was found to be a hoax.

  730. milongal on November 23, 2020 at 9:57 pm said:

    @JS: Some time ago I suggested that the ROK from Jetty road could have been a prank gone long – that some randoms came forward with a book with a ripped page, and instead of being dismissed it took a life of its own. The page was ripped but the TS slip was trimmed up neatly. That means if we have the right ROK, the purpose of removing the TS slip wasn’t for identification purposes as has been suggested (because surely the identity idea requires that the shape of the slip is a match to the shape in the book). It might be possible that the book subsequently ripped more, but not sure I’d really buy that. Remember at inquest the best the government analyst could say was that the paper certainly seemed to have the same composition. But if we took 2 books published around the same time by the same publisher, I suspect we would be quite likely to find this similarity. The result is a bit like the earlier conclusions “I can’t dismiss…” rather than “I can categorically say”.
    For mine, I think there’s also some pressure on the analyst to get certain results – so there’s an inherent confirmation bias to begin with. He is asked to demonstrate the 2 samples come from the same place – so anything that might prove otherwise is simply ignored, and anything that is consistent is flagged (perhaps with more weight than it needs to be).

    Re Port Lincoln, their site’s database (which seems to be semi-statewide (it’s like there’s multiple SA Cemetry Authorities…..)) has:
    – an 84 year old Jessie Thompson buried 14/11/11 (but the 11 is 1911)
    – a Jessie Christine Thomson buried (actually, cremated) in Mt Gambier in 1993 aged 60 .
    – a Jessie McTaggart 5 months old in Port Augusta (can’t find date) – obviously this isn’t her, but it caught my eye all the same

    I will note that their search seems to get strange results (“THOMPSON” finds the 84 year old Jessie, but “THOMPSON, J” doesn’t (yet “THOMSON, J” does bring up the other one, which doesn’t seem to appear if you just search “Jessie” – although I’m not certain the order is alphabetical, even though it looks like it at times). So maybe I’ve missed her at Lincoln….

  731. john sanders on November 23, 2020 at 10:57 pm said:

    In South Australia from 1980 to 2000 which probably covers a goodly number of people in Robin Thomson’s age grouping who were born and died, without there being actual DOB details (I could assertain this), 33 McMahon middle names are recorded and all but one were males. It would seem to me that Jessica was not alone in her desire that Robin might grow up in a nulear free world, although the phenmina could easily have been a soviet orchestrated conspiracy.

  732. john sanders on November 24, 2020 at 6:27 am said:

    My blunder. There are more like forty pages in the C&F ROK with two numbered quatrains on each face page only with some sketches. A strange press set up with wide unadorned borders, looking as if the print layouts could be glued though that possibility has never been discussed far as I’m aware.

  733. john sanders on November 24, 2020 at 8:06 am said:

    Right the first time I think. Struth what tiny thin little books they were, and at the risk of being compared with Repeat Peteb, just made for sending to a pal in one of those white Keane suitcase envelopes instead of an Xmas card.

  734. Tamara Bunke on November 24, 2020 at 8:22 pm said:

    Regulars may be interested in this new, short BBC Radio podcast on SM that canters through the basics with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Somewhat bizarrely, this is a thrown together bonus episode in a series that has something to do with HP Lovecraft. Indeed, it makes an explicit connection between the bust of SM and something Lovecraftian. I haven’t listened to any other episodes yet, so can’t comment further.

    Anyway, here it is (look for “Bonus episode 1”):

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/GTKk6n0fQPcWzHXmTDXGHH/can-you-solve-this-true-crime-mystery?xtor=CS8-1000-%5BDiscovery_Cards%5D-%5BMulti_Site%5D-%5BSL02%5D-%5BPS_PROGRAMMES~N~~LovecraftInvestigations%5D

  735. milongal on November 24, 2020 at 9:54 pm said:

    Thanks Tamara – Good find!

    Their cleaned up version of the code is interesting….and seems to follow some observations we’ve previously had (naturally that would have influenced the copy, rather than proving our point).
    – The Beginning of the first 2 lines could be W or M or N
    – There are several distinct styles to the ‘A’s (equally some of the D/P/B have much sharper loops than others). (the last A and B are totally different to the others (maybe the first B in the code is slgihtly similar – although less emphasised)
    – the letter T seems inconsistent too, and bith G’s look different (these a less obvious differences to the A and loops on P/D/B, and may be a result of the tracing rathemore than anyuthing else
    – the C after Q does not look like a C – top of an S perhaps, or maybe an ampersand? Similarly the ‘S’ in the last line looks like it’s intended to be something else. In fact the other S in the bottom line doesn’t really look like an S either (maybe an S – or perhaps some letter from a foreign alphabet (e.g Greek Koppa)

    Probably a result of being cleaned up, but there’s a flatness to the stem of the last letter that I can imagine a straight line under the letters touching the right-most stem of the M and the bottom of the S like symbol (but the ITTMT don’t align with it).

    Incidentally, JS, I’ve speculated before that Fedosimov was anti-nuclear (from a weapons, not an energy perspective). Can’t remember the exact angle, but basically I think I theorised it was what ultimately saw him shifted from diplomatic missions to his role as advisor on the Russian delegation to the IAEA conferences. I think it might have been a counter argument to the idea he had deeply offended the Kremlin (which I think was the justification for him disappearing from the US and “appearing on Somerton Beach”). Rather, I proposed that he may have had unpopular views regarding Nukes as weapons, but because of this was a tactful (or at least non-controversial) voice to have representing Russia’s view of Atomic Energy. Noting, of course, that it was (and remains) pure speculation.

  736. john sanders on November 25, 2020 at 12:05 am said:

    milongal: Couple of interesting snippets re Jessie Muir Thomson bn. 1918 for anyone interested in long bows. She came from a prosperous Port Lincoln family, her Dad being Walter McFarlane a local auctioneer who must have been active when Prosper Thomson was doing auto business up there in the late forties. Jessie’s mum Christain name was Douglas then there were two sisters and two brothers all with Muir as their middle names, little sister Glen hooking up with young Harry Cleland who’s immediate connections were wealthy Adelaide spirit merchants, along with uncle John and cousin Tom both achieving great success in their respective professions. Jessie’s own husband George Archibald Thonson son of George Thomson a wealthy grazier of ‘Burnside’, who she married in 1940 and to whom she had a child Janet in 1942, up and died at age 29 in 1942 (for no good reason) and all that remains is his granite headstone with George sans Thomson still in place at George town cemetery near Clare. His sudden demise prompted a young and very presentable new widow into making a move to Somerton Park in Adelaide where she remained, apparently unclaimed and unheard of for another fifty two years until her life was celebrated with twin services at Port Lincoln and Centenial Park. Co-incidently her near namesake Jessica Thomson rests nearby as does the latter’s husband Prosper (George) though without the glamour of his loving wife. no need to comment as to how a dodgie auto dealer may have come to be known as George Thomson from the time of his AIF discharge in ’43, through til the day his ashes were shoved under a rock at Passadena.

  737. john sanders on November 25, 2020 at 3:40 am said:

    @My Name, a newly inducted dupe over at ‘heart of darkness’, has offered his thoughts on the probabilities of a chap name of Thomas McMahon using his wife Hilda’s maiden monicker Keane, as intimated by Gordon’s man Clive. Let me assure you my man, the Hilda Mary Keane who died on October 30th 1940 and that was subsequently laid to rest at Babina (sic), could hardly have been married to Tom Keane or any other bloke one cares to nominate. You see the poor wee bambino interred at Babinda cemetery happened to have died on that very day, her actual birthday. PS Nice work Clive, GC will no doubt be pleased with your continued loyalties.

  738. john sanders on November 25, 2020 at 4:53 am said:

    I’ve just noted for the umteenth time both here and on our colleague Peteb’s most compelling site, frequent referal to a certain black powder residue having been shaken from a small stencilling brush that was part of the so-called Keane suitcase. It seems from past similar references y’man would have it that said black powder residue is likely to be something akin to graphite dust of a kind used to lubricate keyways for auto theft. A most convenient nomination in light of Tomsbytwo’s absolute certainty that this case revolves around grand theft auto.

    Going back through the SM inquest deponent affidavits, only one reference to the brush and it’s residue is contained; it being in Detective Leane’s testimony where he talks only of black substance found on stencil brush?, which chemical testing by anylist Cowan could not identify. I’d be interested to know if anything else has come to light in regard to what form said substance took, as it certainly doesn’t seem consistent with the powder that Pete harps on about as if it’s form were a given. I’m more inclined to the view that it was more like dried crumbly ‘gunk’ but I’ll allow to having been wrong occasionally in the dim and distant past.

  739. Milongal: given Leane said the original code was in faint pencilling, do you think that whoever overlaid the photo taken of same may have been faced with some gaps here and there, and was required to improvise?

  740. john sanders on November 25, 2020 at 7:40 am said:

    Tamara: Comrade; Here in our southern Liberated zones, our respected party elders have chosen in their estermed wisdom, to not expose our patriotic youth to devisive capitalist propaganda aimed at their vulnerability; this been ratified at party level, thanks to the firm guidance of democratically elected comrades of our beloved Politbureau. We of course are well aware of capitalist BBC’s Tamam Shud re hash with it’s “This beat the Navy” cipher text. Solution proved not to be difficult for our year 7 young pioneer youth collective students using simple letter word association taken from passages of comrade Wilfred Burchett’s ‘grass hoppers and elephants’ using a ‘Danetta’ substitution key…Hope you enjoyed it though!

  741. Tamara Bunke on November 25, 2020 at 11:09 am said:

    John, here in the high Sierras, our heroic freedom fighters have laboured in comradely union with the oppressed campesinos to erect an antenna that acts as a beacon of la revolucion to friend and foe alike.

    Thus we are able to spread the message of hope against the imperialist aggressor norte-americano far and wide. An attendant benefit is that we can reverse polarity at sundown and listen to the class enemy’s transmission.

    We marvel at capital’s ingenuity, while remaining steadfast in the cause of liberation.

  742. milongal on November 25, 2020 at 9:30 pm said:

    @Pete: Yes. Depending on whether it was faint penciling or indentations as though it had been rested on (or something else in between), I think there’s potentially interpretation. If there is some cyrillic/greek/other script with unfamiliar characters, then there may have been a tendency to interpret them as similar Latin characters. At the risk of repeating my previous, most obviously to me there’s multiple types of ‘A’ in the code (look at the slant/symmetry of the letter, sharpness of the angle/straightness of the sides, angle of the crossbar, how well the crossbar connects or crosses the stems etc. There also appears to be 2 or 3 different styles for “bowled” letters – some ‘B’ quite definitely meet and turn at the stem, others roughly approach it, and the loop of the bowl is far deeper and sharper for the D, P and B/R on the RHS of the page than the B’s or D/P in the middle of the text.

    But in terms of interpretation and light penciling perhaps the C is the most obvious. It’s much shorter then the Q, very shallow and really feels like it’s the top half of an S (or some non-Latin character) rather than a C (note also the similarity of the top of it to the first S in the bottom line – which you’ll note is totally different to the 2nd ‘S’ – although the straightness of the bottom of the S is very unusual in both of them – especially when you could argue that a lot of other letters (the ‘G’ in the top line) are unnecessarily curved).

    I also can’t help but wonder why sometimes we seem to have included other detail (the X and the 2 lines…..the crossbar on that last S, the double stroke on the ‘I’. Sometimes it seems like we’re misinterpreting stuff into letters, other times it feels we’re conscious of the fact that these might not just be letters that we’re familiar with.

    There’s an interesting gap between MLIABO and AIAQC (compared to how squished the WTBIMPANETP line is) – is this a pause, or has a letter been missed here? Not sure why, but the ‘E’ looks out of place with the rest of the font too (I think it might be that bars on it aren’t angled – but every T, L and many A are (I would have throught someone with a tendency to cross the T upward would have ‘E’, A’ (H etc) similar. In fact the whole code seems to be written generally upward – which I think would be consistent with someone who strikes crossbars upward.
    The more I look at it, the more I think it was written by multiple people and/or hasn’t been reproduced very accurately

  743. Tamara Bunke on November 25, 2020 at 10:35 pm said:

    We find it easy to accept that GCHQ’s micro-writing is pareidolia. Could the entire code be?

  744. Tamara Bunke: I think there’s precisely zero chance that the code itself is pareidolia, though my best guess remains that what we are looking at in the well-known image is a marked up photograph (with some mistakes), and that there is a print (perhaps in a Durham family loft) of a photo of the unmarked up code that nobody has seen in 50-odd years.

  745. Bumpkin on November 26, 2020 at 2:36 am said:

    What do you mean by “Durham family loft”? This case doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. Spinning completely out of control. Total nonsense. Dig him up. Get his DNA. Check it against genealogy databases. That’s the best we can hope for. IMHO.

  746. john sanders on November 26, 2020 at 7:11 am said:

    Much has been said for the S & Mc. listed occupants of 90 (a/b) Moseley Street at the time of Sister J E Thomson’s telephone line into the same address, which may well have been a common convenience for all in the divided dwelling. The names Farrer, Ross, Lyndan, Shipham, Allen and Proudman (92) are well documented. The 1947 occupier of the front main entrance 90a seems to have been a 23 year old seminarian rom Flinders Ranges, Raymond Ignasius Pope come down to try out for the Catholic Priesthood. Some doubts surround this identity of course, for instance his dad was a methodist and it is well known that niether of these most unlikely God fearing contenders for salvation were ever closer than spitting range. NB: I took note of a Raymond Pope, passenger aboard SS Fairsky ’61 Tilsbury who gave c/o St. Marks Cathederal, Port Pirie as his address, so the boy may have been on his way to becoming Pope Pope of Oz afterall.

  747. Bumpkin: Jimmy Durham was the police photographer and fingerprints expert, I’ve blogged about him a number of times. His son (who has sadly since died) gave after-dinner talks on his father’s work.

  748. Tamara Bunke on November 26, 2020 at 9:16 am said:

    Bumpkin, I think Old Nick is referring to Durham the photographer (?), albeit it in an occulted manner.

    It’s a sideline, yes, but questions around the veracity, accuracy and even existence of the “code” haunt this case.

  749. milongal on November 26, 2020 at 10:02 pm said:

    @JS: As I think you’ve pointed out before, S&Mc is quite inconsistent (even with themselves – their alphabetical listings are often different to their street listings, so I assume they were maintaining 2 lists (pre-computers this probably makes sense) and sometimes they weren’t updated consistently. I’m interested to know where they get their data from, because sometimes I suspect they list owner rather than tenant (which could be down to people not recording aspects of tenancy – perhaps because they let/sub-let directly without an agent or something – even today I’m sure there’s a lot of people that don’t follow the processes that might be required or expected).
    the Thomsons are interesting, because from memory newspaper ads suggest they owned (or at least tried to sell) Moseley St (or another house in Glenelg??). Also from memory (when I get a chance I’ll double check) I don’t think I’ve ever found them in any S&M before or after SM – which might be something simple as them being fairly transient (and/or possibly living in share houses) or something stranger that they were trying to mask their identity.

    But you have reminded me that I wanted to cross check 90A Moseley with Main St Henley.

    Re the code, if it was written in pencil (as opposed to recovered indentations), then I’d expect a reasonably accurate copy with the texta – the only exception being that some characters might inadvertently (or deliberately) be “cleaned up”. This is particularly if the person tracing has a presumption that all they are seeing are characters of the English alphabet. Even within the languages that use the Latin characters, there are a large number that add diacritics – which an English speaker wouldn’t even be looking for.

    For example, there has been some speculation about Baltic origins. The Latvian alphabet use a caron, cedilla and macron to modify letters….
    So vowels can be lengthened (Ā would be more like ‘ar’ like in “park”, whereas without the macron it’s a shorter sharper sound (like in “puck”) – the lazy English ‘a’ sound comes from the Latvian ‘e’ or sometiumes ‘ej’ combination (the ‘j’ is like the English ‘y’ which Latvian doesn’t have, and the most common English ‘j’ sound would come from mixing a d and a ž (think of it as being the sound ‘zh’ would make if we followed the English in their treatment of ‘s’ with an ‘h’ (ie ‘sh’) and ‘c’ (ie ‘ch’))). As well as the caron on ‘z’ (and s, c) and the macron on all the vowels (except o – since the 40s), a cedilla is used on g,k,l,n (and formerly r) to make softer constonants (it’s hard to describe them to English speakers, perhaps the easiest is Ļ which is sort of the sound Italians get from ‘gl’ (as in the definite artivle ‘gli’ or in a word like ‘tagliatelle’ (the ‘g’ disappears and the l is sort of softened, maybe blurred).
    Now couple that with the fact that Latvians (and possibly many other languaghes) are painfully phonetic and bastardise words (and names) into their phonetics (masculine names (usually) get an arbitrary ‘s’ on the end, feminine ones an ‘a’ – actually their not arbitrary, it has to do with the language having a large number of cases (I think 7 different cases) – so just a result of the nominitive case, I think (and in the genetive it would sort of be the opposite…..but digression).
    So Džons Sēnders is a regular poster on this site run by Niks Pellings, and occasionally Pīts Boz (I don’t know how they’d get the right ‘o’ sound, actually because the Latvian ‘o’ is a longer softer sound (almost more like ‘uo’ ).
    Curiously (maybe this is onlky the ones I know), when anglicising they seem more likely to translate to an equivalent – eg Jānis would become John, Miķelis becomes Michael (although maybe that should be Mitchell), Andrievs becomes Andrew etc, etc. (plenty of info probably better explained on Wiki search for ‘Latvian Names’, ‘Latvian Phonology’, ‘Latvian Orthography’, ‘Latvian Names’, ‘Latvian Declension’

    Equally, Germanic languages use umlauts – and of course the Eszett (which might mean that the less point “B” are actually ß (of course, that’s unlikely/impossible IF we’re talking about the start of words)).
    And I’m sure many other languages use similar but nonetheless different symbols that might be forced into an English-looking text.

    In short, even ignoring other character sets, the implicit assumption that any text MUST be English might mean that useful diacritics or other unfamiliar marks might have been ignored

  750. john sanders on November 27, 2020 at 6:11 am said:

    Don’t know too much more about the 104 Partridge St. address, excepting it was owned by a somewhat flighty character named jim Murnane bn. 1907 who had hailed from tiny Cummins (Feltus country) like ex AG John Rau’s dad James Bruce, a mechanic & billiard hall prop., who settled in Main St. HB during WW2. So the J.G. Murnane family were living in Glenelg by ’39 at least, being well known to the local archdiocy and with a phone listing of X3639 according to my impeccable source. Jim, served with the local ‘choccos’ through the war and was a wetwork subbie by vocation. He moved back to Cummins to die a good Catholic in 2004 at 97, likely managing to avoid the odd close shave along life’s journey if it must be known. NB: The James George Murnane, buried at Brighton in ’55 is most likely an uncle or grandfather who also near made the magic ton himself.

  751. john sanders on November 27, 2020 at 8:59 am said:

    There are only eight modern built dwellings in Alta Mira Crescent at Belair, the only permanent structure at that time seeming to be the Methodist Church (uniting) which is numbered 18 Sheoak Street. In ’47 I’d say their were a few chicken yards in the two wide vacant blocks (still vacant) between the Church and the house on No. 15 with a massive town water tank (one of three) fronting onto Sheoak Street. The Thomson (no initial) advising pitch on 23/3/47 was in wanting a prewar model Bedford truck and that he could be found two doors from the church or c/o a local post office box and that’s all. Got me buggered but maybe some genius will come up with what was supposed to happen; not as if a bloke with an old truck to sell was likely to spot the vacant lots upon arrival and so check with the post office for further directions.

  752. john sanders on November 27, 2020 at 11:27 am said:

    Apart from the 2A Jetty Rd. Glenelg address for Freeman Chemists in ’48 having been non existant according to the generally reliable S & M directory, it seems likely that John Christian Freeman, our unlikely nominee for Ronald Francis, may actually have been living at 2A Palmer Ave., Myrtle Bank near Adelaide University. Similarly, according to the same directory, John Bain Lyons is not listed at any address close to the Somerton Beach, though a J. B. Lyons is recorded at a Glandore residence closesby Adelaide Cricket Club.

  753. john sanders on November 28, 2020 at 6:16 am said:

    Peteb: Depends who you believe; a respected business man and WW1 first aid man in Jack Lyons, or a career copper of the same age in Constable Moss, with a lot of court appearances under his belt. Lyons made his point with ‘When we saw the man raising his arm in the evening, he was not holding a cigarette; When we saw him in the morning, there was a cigarette behind his ear but that cigarette had not been lit’. Moss was in no doubt that his cigarette, positioned in the jowl had been smoked fairly well down, and backed this with a copper’s standard clincher ” I made it my husiness to know”. Moss didn’t have a clue what brand the bumper was which, along with having no idea about the matches either, led to a thanks for your service posting to picturesque Henley Beach.

  754. john sanders on November 28, 2020 at 7:38 am said:

    Direct pencil application or indentations through the missing ROK cover, this age old conundrum shall remain unknown it seems, unlike the direct printed X3239 phone number which an afterhours detective added in tiny letters alongside the end of line ‘P’ of the code. In Gordon C’s very latest cracked offering, we see a heap of years old micro crud rejuvinated with red highlighting to conceal evidence of nothingness. The long acclaimed letter Q, once a standout advertisment for the micro technique and reason for Peteb’s ‘GC scoooored’ eureka exclamation is now unembellished lieing forlorn to one side with only C for company. There appears to be a neat burn hole beneath the badly overwritten first line M? that wasn’t there before but which could be a failed test of BS/TS’ long threatened secret lifting fluid based on glass penetrating Goanna oil from Bullimba.

  755. pits boz on November 28, 2020 at 8:50 am said:

    JohnS … the way some folks see it, is that Strapps was wrong about the striped duds and the man who saw a man carrying a man was wrong about the date and PC Moss was wrong about the lit smoke and B&M matches.

  756. john sanders on November 28, 2020 at 3:04 pm said:

    Pitz Boz: Way I see it, both Johns had corroboration with their sworn testimonies. John the jeweller had back-up for the discovery in the form of RSL King pin of the time and future Knight of the Realm, Colonel James Lee MC and bar, whilst John the plod had Det. Sgt. Harry Strangway, longest serving and inarguably the most capable major crime investigator that Sapol owned as his SOC supervisor. So what became of these worthies; who were never mentioned beyond Strangway getting named on day one as OIC then nothing after. In the words of Jo Thomson’s alleged admission to fibber Feltus, “The case was at much higher level than the Adelaide CIB ” and so say most of us!

  757. milongal on November 29, 2020 at 10:15 pm said:

    The man carrying the body story appeared a decade later. Not saying it didn’t happen, but the further we get from an event, the less reliable the memory is – and while I accept that it’s something you mull over, you sort of need to consider why not come forward earlier if you’re certain it was that night? I suspect the person had some recollection of seeing someone carrying a person (or more likely helping an intoxicated or incapacitated person) along the beach, and over time they convinced themselves it must have been on that night.

    Clearly I fall into the category of the “…don’t believe a whole bunch of the recorded evidence…” type. But there’s a reason for that – many seem to be reading old accounts of often unreliable witnesses and then using same as absolute certain proof that today’s pet theory is infallible. The reality is, that while perhaps I seem a “negative Nancy” too often, every theory that I’ve seen proposed needs us on some level to dismiss some evidence as “unreliable” or even “wrong”. Even among the official records we have conflicting accounts – meaning there is at least some unreliable evidence from the get-go. So to some degree, before speculating on specifics (and then showing our confirmation bias as we choose the evidence that suits our story) it’s sort of necessary to consider how reliable different evidence is likely to be. In particular, consider:
    – In the earliest stages of the investigation this was a mundane death. Because the body was in a public place, the police had to make some investigation, but from early on they likely expected a finding of “natural causes” (or suicide), and for someone to come forward to claim the body. It was only as time past and this didn’t happen that they started to look into things more thoroughly
    – A young chap going to watch a sunset with his girl is probably not paying too much attention to the pants a random sleeper on the beach is wearing
    – Government analysts are (accidentally) told what to find. They’re not given something with no background and told “tell us everything you know about this”, they are given a piece of evidence with a story and asked whether they can make a specific conclusion about it. Aside from the obvious confirmation bias this causes, it also means that they word things in that frame of reference. The Rubaiyat page literally came back as a “…can not confirm or deny this slip came from this book” yet is presented as “The paper was certainly similar enough that it *could* have come from the book”. Incidentally, I have been in a situation (actually more than 1) in a Government department when I’m asked to show someone accessed something that shouldn’t – and a response of “I can’t prove they accessed the data, but I can see they used the system that day” is reduced to they “accessed the system that day” (maybe with an addendum of “…possibly to view those records”
    – The railway station staff are in the same boat. They are asked to show things about 30 Nov. We don’t know how good their processes and records actually are, but they are potentially told to “cover your asses and make a good story of it that doesn’t expose holes in our record-keeping”. The ticket seller explaining that he can definitively say it was that day because of how they rule lines through the top ticket at the end of the day certainly sounds awesome in a court room (especially if the process existed and people were actually good at doing it) – but what checks did he make when looking up the record to be sure that he was looking at Nov 30? What if he accidentally looked up Mondays ticket numbers, or Sundays? Was the ticket booth the only place where people could buy tickets, and is it normal on a warmish (I’m not going to the unseasonal – I’ve argued against often enough) day only 3 tickets to Henley are sold before midday?
    – Likewise the bus conductor. Sure 7d tickets are sold in Section 1, and 6D tickets are sold in other sections – but what record does he have of which run they were sold on and how accurate are they? In a shift, how many times did that bus pass through the city? At what point does the driver update his records? At various times during my time on the buses, I was required to count passengers (usually when for some reason we weren’t using ticketing – including something related to strike action (that I wasn’t part of and don’t recall the specifics), and several instances of free travel (New Year is the most obvious, but I vaguely remember something weird possibly related to an event like the Clipsal 500, and Football Runs which had tickets that didn’t use the Crouzet system). Differnet drivers had different methods of taking these tallies, from anally updating their count each time a passenger boarded, to counting in their head and updating at time points or termini – to just making up numbers (some probably more accurately than others). Just because processes are there, doesn’t mean they’re followed to design in the actual case – but I’ll bet you if any of those drivers had been called to explain the numbers, every single one of them would have claimed they meticulously counted and got it right.
    – Witnesses in general are unreliable. It’s not on purpose, it’s just that they’re usually not paying attention, and when something is exciting enough to catch their attention, the story they interpret is often more fanticised and/or involves their assumption/conclusion about what was going on. A man and a woman yelling at each other might be described as “a lovers argument” (even though the witness has no idea if there’s even any connection between them)….kids yelling at each other might be “an altercation about the game they were playing” etc, etc, etc.
    – By the time anyone started to think this case might be something more than a (typical) body found in public much evidence had likely been missed or inadvertently destroyed – but very few people are prepared to admit “We missed stuff because I F’ed up” – so instead an increasingly false narrative grows (possibly with multiple players even from the get-go twisting the facts to suit their personal theory on suicide or murder).

    So yeah, some people are quick to say a lot of the information we have is unreliable. I’d consider that an accurate appreciation of what we (don’t) know…

  758. milongal on November 29, 2020 at 10:26 pm said:

    Changing topic.
    Had a thought at the weekend around the well developed calves (calfs?). Perhaps he lived or work somewhere where he was often up and down the stairs (it occurred to me this might fit with him being a nitkeeper keeping watch downstairs and bolting upstairs at the slightest hint of trouble, but I’m not necessarily going that way yet). I’d imagine 2 story houses were uncommon in Adelaide in the 1940s and hotels would have elevators (beachside apartments or institutions might be more likely to have stairs – but you’d be unlikely to be up and down them all dat), so very few people would get that sort of exercise in situation normal.
    That said, I think the calves impression came from Lawson – who while possibly experienced in anatomy, wasn’t necessarily used to seeing and assessing dead bodies.

  759. john sanders on November 30, 2020 at 3:08 am said:

    Peteb: D’you hear there, that Gordon’s fellow swabbies aboard Barcoo gave him a well suited shipboard nickname, as young naval ratings are apt to do. In ordinary seaman Strapps case ‘Tatts’ might have worked for his known artistic display, or even Goggles due to his requiring ultra thick lens for extreme short sightedness; However, the lads came up with a real gem in Radar; not because of any related shipboard assignation, but simply because the poor fellow was blind as a cave bat. PS: Note the on site wedding snap, telltale dark rings around his peepers and how Olivetti appears to be guiding her man like a seeing eye dog.

  760. Milongal: one piece of a jigsaw puzzle doesn’t make any sense until the others are fitted around it.

  761. john sanders on November 30, 2020 at 10:43 am said:

    Just so long as the jigsaw piece in question is part of the actual puzzle Peteb. Two questions without notice for yourself and Boris the flipper to chew over if I may. Regarding the Greenwood ‘Riddle of the Sands’ Good Weekend article, of which includes the standard Keane suicase contents list; same but for the four pair of sox and an extra pair of Jockeys; question of course being, how are we off for sox and underwear these days?. Next one is a Cramer type quiz to which I do know the answer. Whats wrong with the knife pose in the supposed Mason’s folder picture?

  762. milongal on November 30, 2020 at 9:13 pm said:

    @PB: Some days it feels like somebody put the wrong pieces in the jigsaw box, and we’re building the wrong picture.

  763. JohnS .. nothing wrong with the knife pic at all … just a bit of double protection for a sharp blade: tinned-zinc is handy for that, being bendable.

  764. john sanders on December 1, 2020 at 10:51 am said:

    Peteb: Thought you’d fall for the durex protection, but actually the tinned zinc could well be a great clue to the correct answer..A little more close scrutiny and you’ll get it.

  765. john sanders on December 2, 2020 at 5:03 am said:

    I’m indeed honoured to be given the same ‘Brinksmanship’ award ala the great John Foster Dulles, a past master and unequalled in the field of international duplicity sans diplomacy for his ‘two step shuffle’. In fairness to the great man, Peteb no doubt meant his so named thrust in a less complementary light, for I notice I wasn’t included in his short list of SM good guys vis. Abbott, Cramer, Pelling, Boris and milongal…Whilst Peteb’s labouring over how to resolve the Brymay matches impass &c., with a little help from his named confidants to his liking, along with having another go at SM’s (?) utility knife riddle, I’ll just rest on my laurels and await opportunity for another no risk feint and fade ambuscade.

  766. Here’s one for you … and anyone else who might like to participate.

    How did the Somerton Man light his cigarette ?

  767. john sanders on December 2, 2020 at 11:00 am said:

    Peteb: At the risk of being repetitious to the nth degree I’ve put all my faith in the old digger Jack Lyons, who’s powers of observation in the trenches of France must have saved a few lives including his own. “That cigarette was not lit” from big Jack should win over Moss the plod in the minds of most punters by a Somerton mile my reckoning, so there you go, a mute question by all accounts.

  768. So what was the unlit cigarette doing lodged under his chin, seeing he had no matches to light it?

  769. john sanders on December 2, 2020 at 1:49 pm said:

    Peteb: Your lit smoke assumption is based on the law’s arrival at 6.45am or later, whereas Jack Lyons, Arthur Lee and the hoops were there from about 5.30am to 6.15am, so trying to take a doubtful later spotting by constable plod has gaps and reeks of convenience to me. As for your unfamiliarity with Prosper Thomson’s Sapol connections, you might like to see what your Bondi mate John Ruffles had to say re Det. Ron Thomas who claimed to have known him socially; but spare your known research limitations and Let one of the lads do it for you as usual..

  770. Tamara Bunke on December 2, 2020 at 2:01 pm said:

    The very first page of the 1949 inquest concludes that matches were found among the few possessions on the body. It’s there, black and white, on the record and undisputed.

    What we are seeing here is the normal to and fro of witness testimony. Smoked, unsmoked; matches, no matches. Witnesses differ, their testimony is subjective and self-serving.

    The inquest is clear: matches were found. It’s the only source we have. Others have said it before: the case is not going to hinge on a Columbo-style “gotcha” worked into the plot by a skilled, omnipotent and omniscient author.

    Matches and trousers are not where the answers lie.

  771. john sanders on December 2, 2020 at 2:12 pm said:

    Peteb: How did you arrive at your assessment that the smoke, unlit or otherwise was lodged under the dead man’s chin. Can’t find it in Moss’ sworn testimony anywhere and of course first attender Lyons attests to it being above his ear so maybe your unamed informant was a late arrival known but to you and Foo.

  772. Tamara: PC Moss was interviewed by The Truth (Adelaide) where he stated that the body ‘didn’t have a match on him.’
    I have a pic of the article …
    It’s in black and white, and like any jigsaw puzzle, finding a piece that fits can only help.

  773. milongal on December 2, 2020 at 9:32 pm said:

    Somewhere (possibly inquest?) there’s a mention that the cigarette was on his collar (as though it had dropped from his mouth).

    But I’m with Tamara on this one – picking little anomalies in people’s recollection statements isn’t really helpful. A good witness is the exception, not the rule – and little differences or omission of detail isn’t a massive red flag about anything,

  774. john sanders on December 2, 2020 at 10:37 pm said:

    Tamara: Take a bow comrade, now that smoko’s over, perhaps we can resume our struggle towards a world without risk of further Bryant & May discovery queries.

  775. Tamara Bunke on December 2, 2020 at 10:47 pm said:

    While Pits, Sanders and Angliski Boris (one wonders if he really IS the Prime Minister of that poor benighted isle?) indulge in epistemological dick-waving over what is knowable about matches and/or sundry other sources of ignition for blunts and bifters, I have taken time out to watch that 2019 ‘Stuart Littlemore’s Greatest Hits’ video that TBT linked to recently. It’s the usual retread for the most part – but there are one or two new morsels for our delectation – chief among which is Prof Abbott’s revelation that he’s found lots of American 4th cousins in his wife’s bloodline (his working hypothesis being that she’s Somerton Man’s grandchild) and that he expressly ponders, therefore, SM’s likely yanqui heritage.

    Assuming that ol’ twinkle eyes isn’t kidding us, this does seem potentially significant, although perhaps the more genealogically aware (Nick, Sanders, Milongal?) could comment?

    Superficially, of course, it’s a great fit. It matches some of the physical evidence (clothing, personal effects) as well as the mitochondrial DNA (which suggests he’s likely Irish, which in turn matches the name Keane, and helps position in East Coast USA). And it provides a certain fig leaf for the failure to identify him to date: US records are held to be less comprehensive and accessible of those elsewhere, I understand.

    Again, thoughts from anyone here?

  776. john sanders on December 2, 2020 at 10:58 pm said:

    Peteb: Where did you come by your information that Det. acting Sgt. R.L Lean was an administrative type, hence a sticker for paperwork. Once again the evidence shows the exact opposite. My advice is for you to read through Len Brown’s full interview with Stuart Littlemore ’78 and all will be revealed which of will satisfy all but thee on how dilligent your dishonest senior case officer reall was.

  777. john sanders on December 3, 2020 at 5:26 am said:

    Full credit to Tamara and Boris (+ Rob) for sticking it up Peteb and his startled black cat; I had at one point thought the pair had capitulation like his other lackies & running dogs in the past. A couple of additional shots across his bow if I may be so unusually critical. Constable Moss made no specific mention of NOT finding matches on the body as y’man has steadfastly, strenuously and so tediously proclaimed to be vertum his inquest deposition. As for Peteb’s ace in the hole vis. Gordon Strapps generally non committal ‘I shd say’ striped duds description with an additional waver in their being part of an unseen suit is the clincher a total lack of credability. Olive Neill hinted more than once of concerns they might well be disturbing the dead, and was rightly suspicious that the blue suited gentleman on the railing above could be connected as a strings puller, either metophorically or literally (partly my take). She show support for her man on some key elements pertaining to events on the evening at the inquest, that being her prerogative.

    Constable John Moss, OIC of Brighton Police in an early January phone hook-up with the once most eagerly digested Adelaide Truth daily scandal sheet dated 8/1/49, offered details about his having found cigarettes on the beach body and noting nicotine stains suggesting SM had been a heavy smoker, also remarking that strangely ‘he never had a match on him’. All this along with his policeman’s tell tale suspicions arising therefrom, but he said not one word about the all important though highly speculative half smoked fag. Of course none of what he told Truth newspaper came out in his deposition anyhow, which does say more for the dirty blue Hamilton fiver earned from story than his honest copper’s Sworn duty to pass on any relevant facts that might have been beneficial to Coroner Cleland with his deliberations on likely death cause, whither whence etc…

  778. Tamara Bunke on December 3, 2020 at 10:32 am said:

    Bit of a tangent this. But given the Prof’s renewed focus on ballet, I wonder if anyone picked up on a point made by Sanders about 4 years ago now: the premiere of Joanna Priest’s ballet ‘The Listeners’, in Adelaide on 30 November 1948.

    That point doesn’t seem to have been developed at the time. But it might be worth another look.

    Without wanting to introduce too much melodrama, the ballet’s subject matter is rather close to some of the assumptions about SM’s relationship with Sister Jo. While the poem that the piece is based on is less explicit, the ballet builds upon a Gothic premise and adds in the dimension of fatherhood.

    That poem, BTW, is Walter de la Mare’s “The Listeners”. And it’s curiously close to home:

    For he suddenly smote on the door, even
    Louder, and lifted his head:—
    ‘Tell them I came, and no one answered,
    That I kept my word,’ he said.

    I can’t immediately see an acrostic connection to the code. But I’m sure I won’t be the only one taking another look.

    But back to the ballet. Has anyone had a chance to review the following, which includes notes on the Adelaide production:

    https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/907282/Details?

  779. milongal on December 3, 2020 at 9:39 pm said:

    LFMAO – where is this Angliski Boris (that’s “English Boris”in Latvian**).

    The “ballet connection” has bothered me some of late – in particular that people sort of seem to mix in the fact that Robin was a ballet dancer (and DA even seems to think his kids liking dance is somehow related).

    So if SM was Robin’s biological father (and if SM was a dancer), why would Robin become a ballet dancer? Even if his parents knew SM was the father, wouldn’t they (especially Prosper) try to push him away from trying to connect too much with his real father? A love of dancing (or anything, for that matter) is not (as far as I know) genetic – so Robin becoming a dancer in the footsteps of his father only really makes sense if his family were open about the fact Prosper wasn’t his father and it wasn’t a cause of angst in the household (note that this is all speculation – I’m not suggesting that Robin was or wasn’t SM’s son).

    **Today’s Latvian Lesson
    Anglija = England
    Angļu = English – possessive (e.g. Angļu Valoda = English Language)
    Angliski = “in English” (e.g. runāsim angliski = let’s speak (in) english
    Angļi/Angļieši = English – people (PoMS) (e.g. Angļi spēlē Austrāliju – the Poms are playing Australia)
    So “Angliski Boris” would appear to mean something like “The English equivalent of Boris”

  780. john sanders on December 3, 2020 at 10:45 pm said:

    Tamara: Another comrade had mentioned the listeners further back but Sanders had not known this, picking up on it through coincidence derived from the opening night at Her Majestys in Adelaide and interest in a particular dancer who had once had very close romantic ties to Joanna Priest. It turns out that he seems to have died and though his widow was then living near Glenelg and he had a brother and an associate, both Worth Circus trapeze artists through the war years, holed up in Ferris St. fifty yards from the death scene. No one showed any interest in the case scenario and more particularly since the chief suspect was presumably tgen deceased although there were reasons a plenty to check through lists of European dancers that were known to have stayed in Australia including Joanna herself. Another coincidence that went unoticed is that she was Roma Thomson’s ballet mentor years later. Ho hum, right Nick?

  781. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 5:00 am said:

    Yes of course Robin Thomson’s first missus was Joanna Priest’s student Roma Egan whom we assume to be our absent minded Professors mum in law. Jo herself was Adelaide born but became part of the famed Rambert ballet in England. Priest had hooked up with my TS who had first come to Oz as partner to the great Pavlova. He encouraged Joanna in her desire to produce her own work and ‘The Listeners’ was a theme that he developed and had performed in Sydney about 1942 or so. It was all ado about a confused door knocking traveller seeking direction in his life. There was a woman who loved him and bore his child to whom he gave the flick, and another tart that he was pegging, hence his dilemma. The scenario actually mirrored TS’s own life, he being married to Maria with whom he had three kids and left in favour of a Tivoli performer named Marie that he married bigamously before the war. Up until at least 2012 his US based daughter Elizabeth was asking about her once famous dad whom she did not know had died in NZ on 22 January ’45. Cut a long story short Maria TS gave up her children to English relatives and lived well into her nineties in Gibralta, while Marie D. who missed hubby’s funeral due to ‘the show must go on’ type stage work, married a WW2 fighter pilot cum chemist (an orphan from Port Pirie) in ’47, the couple settling at West Beach and running a pharmacy til in death they did part &c. One part of an interesting family saga indeed involving talented performing Polish brothers, but not so worthy of inclusion according to SM grand theft auto deviants (sic) and soviet assassins on the beach that was all ago in 2016 or so. Seems things never change!….

  782. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 9:00 am said:

    Got to give it to the man; Peteb is the master of facetious (sic) and that’s saying a lot for such an abject failure in all his other attempts at humor or in humanising the SM case. Of course the Tamam Shud slip as a means of demonstrating total legitimacy between two covert operators is bunkum, be they spys, stolen car raqueteers or Melbourne market mafioso standover men. Whoever it was that made the TS slip mean something that it wasn’t needs a right royal roasting for unloading such baloney and allowing it to take over fifty percent of all on line discussions. Had it it been me wanting to invent proof of intent I probably would have used the Henley Beach rail ticket. Buy it date stamped at the double star box in the open concourse to insure discreet coverage and then have it gate punched as full and undeniable proof of good intent. Goofproof but if it went down that way, it would in Somerton man’s case lead him to his Tamam Shud.

  783. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 11:38 am said:

    Boris: Bonzo Peteb seems to have taken care of that little faux pas ‘tamam’ as you must have known he would; intollerable discention in the ranks and all. Perhaps Nick might consent to you repeating them over here for approval or otherwise, so long as it doesn’t upset the apple cart with our like minded critic and comrade Tamara Bunke!…

  784. Tamara Bunke on December 4, 2020 at 1:21 pm said:

    Sanders: I’m sure Angliski Boris can answer for himself. But as we say – with good reason – here in Vallegrande:

    “History is written by the victors. But it’s edited by the losers”.

    ¡Venceremos!

  785. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 1:48 pm said:

    Tamara: Here in Can Tho, queen city of the liberated south, we have a saying which in effect translates almost verbatum, with a minor ammendment to effect that the beaten capitalist editorial running dogs may please themselves!…

  786. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 2:18 pm said:

    Some breaking news for those familiar with the Kean suitcase contents vis. the cut down Johnston & Sons scissors, the converted bone handled Sheffield butter knife the Barbour linen threads and accomanying craft needle, all possibly circa. turn of century (20th) or thereabouts.; Seems that from a number of recent closely linked earnest discussions over the way at Voynich Ninja our Somerton Man’s vocation might well have been finally established. SM seems to have had more than a few attributes common to bookbinders of that era which include those discribed plus the tiny Cramer loupe, useful in closely replicating work of 15th century Venetian artisans.

  787. Tamara Bunke on December 4, 2020 at 4:44 pm said:

    Sanders: the loupe is not a loupe. It is one half of a pair of scissors, listed as “broken” in the description of suitcase contents. In my view, “broken” is an unfortunate term, as it suggests “no longer serviceable”. But this tool is anything but broken in that sense. It’s customised.

    Anyway: there is no loupe.

    Back to ballet (indulge me, won’t you, for a moment): my interest is piqued by the Abbots’ now very public interest in the subject. Viz. the lengthy shots of ballet classes for their kids, etc.

    Call me cynical, but I’ve always thought that ol’ Professor Twinkle Eyes knows more than he’s letting on, especially now he’s got help with from stateside. So I’m wondering if what we’re really watching here is a trailer for the big reveal.

    I’ll let you pirouette on that for a moment.

  788. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 10:46 pm said:

    Tamara: Note my reference to ‘Cramer’s loupe’…If you you go to google and look up equine harness gear you’ll find that a our loupe looks very much like a the short lead strap and ring that connects the nose chin piece to the neck halter along the cheek. Within the connecting ring a three tiny lock notches which are intended to prevent slippage. There are numerous referehce to my description in past posts and also to the likelyhood of Somerton man’s having been likely connected to the gee geez.

  789. john sanders on December 4, 2020 at 10:58 pm said:

    Tamara: Our absent minded professor even has a daughter named after a ballet; I recall that it was one of Stravinsky’s better known ones, something to do with a fleet footed antelope of African origins which escapes my feeble attempts to spell it. Of course there is the long awaited exhumation to come and the paltry amount of twenty thousand couldn’t possibly be any barrier to somone on an achedemic’s salary. So something’s not kosher here, especially since the SA AG’s starring roll in Dancing with the Dead a year ago.

  790. john sanders on December 5, 2020 at 2:51 am said:

    Tamara: Jules Perrot (not Hercule) and Adolphe Adam were creators of Giselle the ballet in 1841 so forget Stravinski who was impressario Diahilev’s tempremental composer for his own Ballets Russes extravaganzas. Sure Derek’s having hooked up with the S.A. AG for Dancing with the Dead gives rise to there being something up his sleeve despite having nada under his hat. Perhaps he’s thinking what failure of his highly speculative DNA deal might bring, especially after having ‘sucked’ the future Mrs. Abbott into pre marital indepth and pervasive oral cum aural cavity intrusion under a false pretence.

  791. Tamara Bunke on December 5, 2020 at 11:08 am said:

    @sanders … interesting that you’re connecting the leathery-thing-with-the-ring to the nags. I always had that down as the razor strop that was listed in the description of suitcase contents.

    A model of such a strop – pertinently known as a ‘Russian Leather strop’ – is shown here:

    https://www.mensbiz.com.au/dovo-extra-wide-russian-leather-strop

  792. john sanders on December 5, 2020 at 1:38 pm said:

    Tamara: You’re looking at the wrong piece of kit for crying out loud. Go to the ring with the three small internal nodules and the partly concealed blue lead which is what equestrians like to call a nose ring and lead. How could it possibly be broken scissors with bumps in the finger hole, worse still a loupe with no way to insert a lens as Cramer suggests. Leane should have known that seeing he spent ten years as a mounted constable before he aquired his suit.

  793. milongal on December 6, 2020 at 9:49 pm said:

    I went to anemptyglass, but I noticed someit other than what I went there for.
    GC has posted a picture there from the police files that includes the “code”. despite seeming to have enough room, each line is split in 2 – bit not really consistently. I would have thought (space permitting) you would try to reproduce as similar as possible (they’ve left a line’s space where the line is drawn), so it seems odd that they’d split the lines like this – if anything, it seems to waste space (I get they’re using typewriters and can’t plan out the page as we would on a modern Word Processor…..but still).
    There’s also a couple of transcription errors (as well as starting the first 2 lines with ‘M’, they have the first ‘B’ as ‘D’ and the ‘N’ in the 3rd row as ‘W’. They seem very careless errors – those letters aren’t particularly close on the keyboard, so perhaps someone is rushing through the transcription (and losing their place), or maybe someone migth have some idea on what they think might be represented – which is perhaps influencing what they type. Of course it might also be that they’re working off the actual pencil marks (rather than the cleaned up version we’re seeing) – which might have some letters looking less definitive.

  794. john sanders on December 6, 2020 at 11:14 pm said:

    Milongal: If you’d be kind enough to point out where on the site you’re refering to I’ll take a gander. You must appreciate that Cramer has played around with nearly everthing listed under Sue d’s original key categories to express his personal bias. Please don’t take anything you see on the site as being connected with reality even copies of seemingly official papers; they likely have been doctored to facilitate the author’s own warped mind.

  795. milongal on December 7, 2020 at 10:13 pm said:

    on the page “Somerton Man’s Rubaiyat” – in the comments GC has posted some excerpt from a Police Report….

    For the sake of it….
    IMP at the end of a line could be “It Might Pass” or (maybe a touch of Tolkein) “In My Pocket”. Just a bored doodler on a train.

    My railway grinds onward
    And downtown and boroughs disappear.
    My ticket’s buried in my pocket
    And we expect travel disruptions.

    My love, I’m almost burned out.
    Although it’s a quick connection,
    I’ll try to make the station
    After my service to Glenelg.
    AB

  796. Tamara Bunke on December 23, 2020 at 3:03 pm said:

    Someone on Big Footy has posted a video summary of the case, hosted by an English gentleman speaking at 1.5 speed.

    Curiously, the presenter is insistent throughout that the Rubaiyat found by “Ronald Francis” was an 1859 first edition. He emphasises this several times, commenting on its rarity and value and making the assumption that this is the reason “the code” can’t be “cracked”.

    I assume this is simply a mistake (not least because, of all editions, I’d assume a first could be found… FitzGerald’s estate or archive?), but wondered if there is any good reason it might have been made?

  797. Tamara Bunke: the 1859 first edition thing is a mistake much repeated by not-very-good websites. It says more about the sources of the summary than about the Somerton Man himself. :-/

  798. john sanders on December 23, 2020 at 10:25 pm said:

    Tamara: I can’t see anything at all wrong with a case summary which denontes Fitzgerald first edition of 1859 which is axactly what it is, although the inquest Coroner’s summary mistakenly refers to a second edition. I should point out that the 1859 does not refer to a year of publication or printing which always seems to confuse some whi shiuld know better.

  799. john sanders: it’s not the facts that are the problem here, it’s all the (politically correct modern equivalent of) Chinese Whispers that those websites bla and amplify.

    Not that you would ever do such a thing, mind.

  800. Tamara Bunke on December 23, 2020 at 10:57 pm said:

    But we’re talking about a 1940s Whitcomb & Tombs edition right?

    BTW: have colleagues seen this learned essay on the thorny subject of W&T Rubaiyats?

    http://www.bobforrestweb.co.uk/The_Rubaiyat/N_and_Q/Whitcombe_and_Tombs/Whitcombe_and_Tombs.htm

    More immediately accessible version here, including some nice images of covers and inside pages, aspect ratios, etc.

    https://omarkhayyamrubaiyat.wordpress.com/2020/09/11/the-whitcombe-tombs-rubaiyats/

    Gordon is all over the case, of course.

  801. milongal on December 24, 2020 at 12:14 am said:

    I’m going to chip in hear as well and point out that “first edition” can mean many things. Fitzgerald did (at least) 5 translations (I think) each of which might be considered an edition by some people.
    Whitcombe and Tombs did several runs of the FG translation in their Courage and Friendship (or whatever) series – each of which might be considered an edition by some parties.
    1859 implies the former, but with the confusion people get into it’s not hard to cross some wires and reach a solution that isn’t quite right.

    In some ways it’s not so different to the Henley Ticket being “unused”.

    2c

  802. Bob Forrest gave me the ok to pass this on …

    There are two things which do strike me as odd about the involvement of The Rubaiyat in the Tamam Shud Case. Firstly, that two editions are involved – Somerton Man’s W&T edition and Alfred Boxall’s Sha’ir Omar Khayyam. Secondly, that the latter should be given by ‘Jestyn’ (the nickname of the woman whose phone number was found on the back of Somerton Man’s copy) as a gift to Mr Boxall, it being a translation of FitzGerald’s first edition into Malay by Arthur W. Hamilton. Why not give a more regular & less esoteric edition – like a W&T Rubaiyat, for example ? Perhaps the answer is as simple as that it was a newly published (1944) and unusual edition – a novelty. Presumably, too, it was given because Mr Boxall was interested in poetry / the Rubaiyat, and perhaps in Malay / Malaya ?

    Bob Forrest

  803. john sanders on December 24, 2020 at 9:01 am said:

    Peteb: And well might we ask who was this man was who called himself Jestyn. Methinks your recall may be somewhat awry, for wasn’t it thee and thy brothers in arms ie. Clive the initiator, Misca the geni tech, and Gordon the facilitator, who declared with much fanfare not so far back that a Major William Jestyn Moulds OBE was indeed said perpetrator. I seem to recall that the discovery was picked up by Bill’s consistant overlapping record with and serving in the very same unit as one Lietenant Alfred Boxall. Misca found connections to a certain Miss Flossy Harkness and her Flt. Lt. Intended, a Moulds namesake co-conspirator which seemed to put everything in harness for a victory parade on the morrow. That seems to be just around the time that the nasty people at Big Footy decided your contract was untenable old chap and therein lies a lesson for all….Ya gotta have a good memory and not tell so many fibs if you dare to compete with the big boys from Big Footy.

  804. No, I’m more inclined to think the gent who signed himself as such might be worth looking for in what records exist of Corn Cobs Small ships crew lists at about the time Alf came and went down under

  805. john sanders on December 25, 2020 at 1:02 am said:

    Peteb: MacArthur’s rag-tag fleet was disbanded on cessation of hostilities in August ’45 according to the books. Alf didn’t go to sea until September of that year and most certainly coudn’t have met up with any CCSS crews, none of which were based in Georges Head, thereby leaving no window of opportunity to liase with some yank off a boat in the harbour. So if all of Cramer’s figmental imaginative clandestine meetings between Alf Boxall nurse Harkness and your lily white Yankee seaman led to the Jestyn signing, we’d better have some more specifics cause your tub sunk. You should have stuck with Major Moulds, after all wasn’t it his handwriting comparison that sealed it for your own motley crew.

  806. john sanders on December 25, 2020 at 12:26 pm said:

    A merry Christmas to all who still hold onto the sanctity of Noel from we the silent minority of presumed non believers flocking by the untold thousands to celebrate in unity the coming of Christ during our festive season. Can Tho City is arguably the most ecclesiastically tolerant city of all multi dominational Christian diocies in the People’s Republic of Vietnam. Not so many corpulant Santas but plenty of fervent helpers.

  807. A charming gesture from one such as yourself, John Sanders, and a Season’s Greetings back your way.
    On another note: we are well aware of disbandment of the Small Ships in ‘45, as we are of the allies rapid deployment of ships and boats and planes in getting their war materials back home out of the rain before Lend Lease could activate the penalties in their various contracts.

  808. I’d start at Ambon. The Crusader berthed there for a while, probably in the close company of a couple of vessels on war material repatriation duties. So many inactive airfields on the north coast of NG, not everything was left to rust.

  809. john sanders on December 27, 2020 at 9:17 am said:

    Peteb: Looks like Major William Jeystyn Moulds is likely to get another shot at redemption with your knowall mate and mentor Cramer according to his new related thread whose characters Harkness and Boxall appear to be competing against parallel themes of your own which is both repetitious and droll. I’m thinking if you could make up and continue the Clive/Lawson ship counting farce as a team, you’d become a force to be reckoned with indeed. Goes without saying that you’d have to caution Flash on his typical silly errors of fact to which we are long accustomed vis., Neil Monro was producer of the 1978 inside story show and not Stuart Littlemore, whatsmore Gordon’s central characters Boxall and the nurse met first at Clifton Gardens about June, then again for the ROK handover in July or August 1945 according to legend. Definately not, as he asserts, fifteen months before in September of ’44, a year before his departure north to NG and islands.

  810. An old-style Bookmaker with time on his hands might trawl through the NAA’s Keane collection to see if one of them was in Ambon at the time Alf Boxall was ashore. Then go for the double. Put him in Brisbane in Oct 46.

    Nobody else has tried.

  811. john sanders on December 28, 2020 at 6:34 am said:

    In discussions re the Alf/Jessica Sydney/Rabaul/Ambon consoiracy of late ’45 appropos connection to the Crusader and T. Keane, a knock about Yankee crew member of MacArthur’s small ship flotilla, one must be careful to get the timing right, it being part and parcel for viabilty of clandestine missions. Take Peteb’s Crusader as case in point on how things can go awry if input dates don’t gel and assigned crew members be elsewhere. We can’t argue that the vessel worked northern waters from war’s through ’46, bone of contention being that Alf Boxall did not board her until a year later in 1947 when she undertook civil assignment cargo voyages between Melbourne and Tasmania with seconded military crew. If that fits the bill for Lawson’s Sydney Harbour allied ship countings, Cramer’s verse 70 book signings and Peteb’s Jestyn impregnations, then we must stand corrected; if not, someone is due for a right royal careening.

  812. john sanders on December 28, 2020 at 7:21 am said:

    Wonderful little sign of total capitulation over at the BS/TS covid free zone with revamping and complete makeover of the inital, detail flawed Jessica Harkness thread vis. Inside story’s incorrectly named research directorship thereof and change to the now corrected September ’44 ROK gifting to Alf Boxall date of mid 45. No body need be surprised that ever the egotist Gordon Cramer would fess up to his blooper; just as well we have the original to humour us in dark times.

  813. JohnS. I suggest you check Boxall’s NAA file … surprised you haven’t already, you’ve been around long enough. Ambon. Clear as a bell it is.

  814. john sanders on December 28, 2020 at 2:11 pm said:

    Peteb: Looks like you missed the boat again cause AV 2316 at Ambon’s got naught to do with Crusader AV 2767 and even so, that was all going down in mid ’47 like I pointed out. Not only the wrong tub, but way too late to get a bit of nursie nookie in Sydney 10/46 you’d have to agree. If there be anything else on your confused mind I’ll help set you straight again Bonzo.

  815. I’m not talking about boats.

  816. john sanders on December 28, 2020 at 10:26 pm said:

    PB: Well you certainly ain’t talking right time frames either and I can’t blame you. Alf flew to Ambon in June ’47 about the time Robin arrived and flew back to Darwin four months later in October. His task had been to prepare an unamed AV 2316 for handover to her new owners. The war had been over more than two years and you should get over it as well…Take a leaf from Alf, change ships and get your ass back over to Adelaide to deal with Dud 47’s grand theft auto king T. Keane. And don’t worry about fessing up to yet another blunder, your mate Cramer never has.

  817. Well, there you are. Boxall spent time in Ambon. Not too hard, was it? And AV2316 wasn’t being prepared for a handover, Boxall was commandeered to fix a lifting hydraulic system.

  818. john sanders on December 29, 2020 at 10:41 am said:

    “I’d start at Ambon. The Crusader berthed there for awhile…..” says Bozo to start this tedious irrelevant conversation, then followed almost straight after with “I’m not talking boats”. So if we’re not talking about the Crusader which is boats, then pray tell what the hell is the idiot on about. Of course he’d never heard of AV2316 before I mentioned it. As I recall it was handed to the indians in early ’47. Thank Nick for having the forsight to create this Misc Stuff site where decrepit fools like us get free reign to strut our stuff.

  819. John Sanders: I think you’ll find that’s “free rein”. :-p

  820. No, reign is about right .. This is the John Sanders Show after all.

  821. john sanders on December 29, 2020 at 11:06 pm said:

    Being caught out by spoilers intollerant of my poor spelling is acceotable; Just so long as they don’t tro to reign on my parade. “This is the John Sandrrs show after all”.

  822. john sanders on December 30, 2020 at 9:17 am said:

    A parting gift for our naval historian in his quest for news of Jessica Moulds who was likely to have been the pivital connect between William Jestyn Moulds of ROK verse 70 notoriety and T. Keane ‘the man from uncle’. He had served in the same unit as Alf Boxall according to G. Cramer of AfIO and was landed on Morotai Nth. Maluku in May ’45 to act as engineering facilitator for the coming battle. Plenty of time to cast a stern line from his supply vessel to one of the McCahails’ Navy craft, pull her alongside, make exchanges with the Ruskie helmsman and then attempt transmition of orders to Jessica Moulds at the safe house. She’s still there it seems, probably awaiting orders for disposal of evidence no longer needed in the ’48 SM case vis. matches and striped mens trousers not needed in the operation…I’ve managed to track her down in Adelaide of all places and she must be one really pissed lady to have been left stranded in such a dangerous, unfriendly and isolated hole all these years without contact.

  823. milongal on December 31, 2020 at 3:31 am said:

    toodling along, of 4 ‘s’ starting words in Jestyn’s verse, there seem to be 3 different variations…..and none of them too similar to the ‘s’ in jestyn (which definitely doesn’t look like the ‘s’ in other places in the middle of words). Couple that with the ‘E’ (that firstly is uppercase and secondly appears not to match the colour/weight of the rest of it) and we’re back on old ground looking for a J. Stijn (not sure “stijn” itself is a name, however it would be a fairly common name ending in some places (Netherlands?).

    Modern looking (unrushed/complete) ‘s’ at first swore
    e-looking s in sober
    rounded almost n-shaped s in second swore and spring

    Digressing, the Jack London “indeed, indeed” bugs me. Not saying there’s a direct connection (there’s obviously some 40+ years between the two), but what motivates people to write that particular verse to people? Is it pure coincidence, or if we work out the motivation behind one we might be able to speculate the motivation for the other? maybe there’s a left-leaning political link to using the verse (much like “Solidarity Forever” later became the song of the unionist movement, perhaps there’s some socialist idea that links to that Rubaiyat verse – or at least was embraced by socialists).

    Some of the writing looks similar enough to appear copied, but I’m guessing that’s a cross between old writing styles and me not being used to seeing things in them (equally two hands writing a character set I’m not familir with (e.g. Chinese) I’d probably not recognise obvious differences.

  824. Jezuz. It’s shocking how many bunny holes you’re willing to jump into JS! Go go go! Be great if just one of them actually led somewhere of relevance! Every frickin’ day a new one! Honestly, with the hours you’ve put in, I would be relieved for you if just ONE F’Ing thing panned out!

  825. john sanders on December 31, 2020 at 10:55 am said:

    misca: Just doing my job in catching you pair of like minded phonies with that crazy hunt for Jessica Harkness and Ernie Moulds in England some time back (may 19) is obviously telling. Like the similar stunt you pulled with GB as Russian Kate earlier that went down like a cacky footed Canadian two step. Then on the matter of my approach to research and unorthadox methods thereof, I’m never likely to find favour with you or your shifty mates on the dark side, but I can offset any remorse by recalling one of Benito Mussolini’s failed attempts to move things along in ’44 ie., complaining about his modern day Rome not being completed in a day as was directed, keeps me on the straight and narrow, irrespective of any competing fiction from you bad guys.

  826. john sanders on January 1, 2021 at 4:30 am said:

    Peteb: You must be talking about the non existant Australian official secrets act that Gerry Feltus signed on a stack of Dick Trace mags. The UK had one as your friend Cramer asserts, gave full dominion coverage as we more liberal colonials never had need for one it seems.

  827. john sanders on January 1, 2021 at 11:55 pm said:

    Unlike our WT engineers Alf Boxall and Tom Musgrave, A/Capt. George French was in Signals and an instructer at Water Transport on sophisticated communications quipment, Q & Z codes, prosigns and the like according to one Gordon Cramer of AfIO…Of course that officer’s NAA file offers us a contrary opinion of this man’s credentials, namely in that his trade and calling was that of a seaman, spending a great deal of his service career at sea as First Mate aboard Small Ships in New Guinea waters and later in Borneo. Nothing shows for his having anything to do with signals or instructing at Chowder Bay, though he did attend an uncompleted course in another category at SME Liverpool NSW. Cramer contends that Captain French was the ‘Third Man’ in the sophisticated ‘Jestyn’ spy ring during ’44/45 and he points to a similarly fabricated espionage syndicate in a 1949 film of the same name for affirmation. It seems that Gordon needs to spend more time in the library and less at the movies.

  828. milongal on January 3, 2021 at 11:26 pm said:

    Incidentally (since we mentioned the non-existent Secrets Act) ,if you love a good coincidence, Australian Secrecy legalities used to (until recently) be enforced by the Australian Crimes Act (1914).
    The specific section that deals with secrets? Section 70.

    70. (1) A person who, being a Commonwealth officer, publishes or
    communicates, except to some person to whom he is authorized to publish or
    communicate it, any fact or document which comes to his knowledge, or into his
    possession, by virtue of his office, and which it is his duty not to disclose,
    shall be guilty of an offence.

    (2) A person who, having been a Commonwealth officer, publishes or
    communicates, without lawful authority or excuse (proof whereof shall lie upon
    him), any fact or document which came to his knowledge, or into his
    possession, by virtue of his office, and which, at the time when he ceased to
    be a Commonwealth officer, it was his duty not to disclose, shall be guilty of
    an offence.

    (NB: Section 79 is also relevant, but I couldn’t help mention 70…..”Indeed, indeed…..but was I sober when I swore?” – standing by for the conspiracy theories…..)

  829. milongal: that would indeed be pretty much the best Somerton Man conspiracy theory I’ve heard so far. 🙂

    Just don’t say it too loud! 🙁

  830. john sanders on January 4, 2021 at 5:54 am said:

    Section 70 re disclosure of state secrets might be a capital crime in countries that take such petty breaches far too seriously. Not so in the land of Oz where one’s right to talk openly on any subect with their pals at the local after a hard day’s yakka in building ’59’ shall not be infringed upon. Then there’s the maximum penalty of two years imprisonment to disuade persistant offenders; whereas in the case of a first time transgressor, a nod to the bench at a local court will have them heading back to work with a severe reprimend and their job securety intact.

  831. I can do something with that ..

  832. john sanders on January 4, 2021 at 8:12 am said:

    Peteb: One last chance for a correct answer on what’s amiss with the knife pose on the mixed bag photo with the big ‘A’ for Adelaide Station ledger backing…If you can’t answer, say so and save some face. If you don’t answer or say domething stupid eg., ‘durex’ tape and zinc plate like last time, you’ll not look so sharp.

  833. Steven Siew on January 4, 2021 at 9:36 am said:

    Monoalphabet substitution with homophones
    Language is in English
    Want to have some fun in a SF short story where the hero breaks the following code. Just wondering if it can be broken by complete strangers.

    julia> ciphertext

    “MngAHdclVvoWcNZfyvYmuXCTFEixhdJasNzVMSIylrgFzwLvYheUAndivvoCRPmnNHfybvDseXWgFZKYdhpzsrTcgSuNLAyJaYFxXEQhvHdDMINEsgmylFcibxUOYdIXvvhbxNzwovsgRyjPZKFIYSeTAndqfCuaNJDhycUmRvLSHroVFesOPvgdZKYNbXEQXnMuTfAyLqFJahdzsozWgNfqyHDYFhlwZKdjUVWNEsnPmyxaLCuVkFJDgIYdbKhszNjTWVyxofSFEgdXARYrNLXwyHoZiWFvfmuCLV”

    julia> length(ciphertext)
    294

    julia> get_freq(ciphertext)[1:5]
    5-element Array{Tuple{Char,Int64},1}:
    (‘v’, 13)
    (‘d’, 12)
    (‘y’, 12)
    (‘N’, 12)
    (‘F’, 12)

  834. milongal on January 4, 2021 at 8:21 pm said:

    “…back to work with a severe reprimand and their job security intact.”
    Depends on the classification of the breach. If you’re in a PV job an share some stuff about what you do, they might not throw you in the clink, but I suspect you’d struggle to maintain your clearance (in fact I suspect you’d struggle to get higher than NV1). That makes job security hard (especially since the clearance usually seems to be more important than any skill or qualification you can bring to the table).
    Pretty sure under anti-discrimination laws advertisements that require you to already hold a clearance (as opposed to ones that require you to be able to get and maintain one) aren’t really legal – not that it stops them being advertised as such (and when you look into what they cost and how long they take to be assessed you sort of realise that it’s not really worth trying to vet a candidate with no (or a lesser) clearance…..especially for a contract on an “…initial 6 month project”.

    Side rant for another time and place: I actually think it’s one of the biggest things Australia (and possibly other countries) need to look at – ways to ensure they get the right talent in highly-trusted positions. Currently they get highly trusted people who don’t necessarily have the skills required because they’re scared of getting highly skilled people who they can’t trust. Somewhere in between there should be a happy medium (or change your trust model – e.g. a developer or tester (or their management stream) doesn’t necessarily need access to a production systems or the data in it, so while there are capabilities that are probably classified themselves, there are many situations where a role requires a classification because of data that might be encountered during day to day activities (Interestingly for a long time local offices of global companies have been engaged for certain roles, and when they need their international talent are able to sanitise any data to allow troubleshooting without a data spill….so you wouldn’t think it would be that hard to separate other non-operational staff from the really interesting stuff that has nothing to do with their job. Perhaps it makes more sense to lock-down access to classified material to the smallest practical audience, rather than waste money arbitrarily vetting people for positions where they might accidentally come across something sensitive….
    Maybe that wasn’t another time or place.

  835. john sanders on January 4, 2021 at 10:59 pm said:

    For anyone at all interested, the origins of this tedious OSA discussion arose a year or so back when AfIO man Gordon Cramer had the temerity to insist that Gerry Feltus would have been obliged to sign one in order to become a Sapol officer. I politely informed he and the house that the old Commonwealth Crimes Act was the best OZ could manage in 1914 and no body was ever compelled to sign a copy (breach of Sec. 30) nor to Swear an oath upon it.

  836. This business with the matches.

    By my reckoning, Cleland had all the clothes from Late Jan to April 19 when he told Leane he’d found the slip. During that time Cowan and he tried on some of the clothing. A jacket and pair of slippers.

    Plenty of time for a smoker to mislay his matches, have them gathered up with the evidence and listed as ‘later established’ because they didn’t match Leane’s first count

    .. verdict: Moss is a dill.

    That’ll do me.

  837. john sanders on January 5, 2021 at 7:29 am said:

    Brother-in-law Peteb. Now what brother-in-law might that have been, got a name in mind have we?

  838. I’ve got one name in mind and it isn’t himself.

  839. milongal on January 5, 2021 at 8:00 pm said:

    As ever, I think many forget that when the body was found it was a simple unexplained death in a public place where the coppers expected someone to come forward and claim the body. Despite what others might say about the thoroughness of the fuzz each time they attend, the reality is that if this sort of thing was happening often enough (and a dig on trove suggests it may have been (haven’t got trove open, but from memory there was a couple of bodies (I think later ruled suicides) at Henley shortly before (one in Marlborough St, and one or more on the Jetty/Beach), North Adelaide and others) through 1948 – so I’ll put an “at least once a week” out there) for even the most rigorous plod to become copmlacent (that was a mistake, but it made me laugh so I’m not correcting it). So a lot of the inaccurate reporting, confusion etc is likely caused by the police farce simply following procedures and correcting them later (as the case became more critical). So at the time you dump all the belongings in a bag and when you later assess them you find there’s matches missing (which perhaps you recall seeing at the scene) so you report they were there, but someone else who either wasn’t on scene or didn’t see them attests the opposite.

    In reading through the police statements, consider who was on scene on the morning of the 1st, and when each copper first checked out Somerton. I wouldn’t be surprised if the inconsistency we’re seeing in the SM debacle is actually all that unusual in an investigation – where different investigators see different “clues” at different times – and interpret them their own way. But I’m sure there will be some dissenting ideas on that view.

    Easy Reader Version: Complacency does not equal conspiracy.

  840. Tamara Bunke on January 5, 2021 at 8:47 pm said:

    Nothing I’ve seen makes me doubt Milongal’s conclusions. Poor old DS Leane has travelled the whole spectrum to make the story fit the preconceptions and biases of us latter day spooks and dicks: a commie one minute, a mason the next.

  841. Milongal: was Leane being complacent when he delayed 51 days in getting an image of the TS slip out to the press?

  842. john sanders on January 6, 2021 at 2:32 am said:

    Peteb: Is (was) Moss a dill and was Leane being complacent?…Goddamn right they were!

  843. milongal on January 6, 2021 at 8:33 pm said:

    @pete: Maybe I haven’t followed something (I thought there was under a month between finding and releasing detail, which I think is perfectly explainable). Would you normally expect a picture of such a discovery to be released? It might be complacency, it might be incompetence – or it might simply be that the police thought that was a lead they’d be best following up themselves to begin with.

    Consider:
    Slip is found on the body, and causes interest with police. Police now work to identify what it means and where it comes from (no need to release publicly).
    TS is identified as being from a rubaiyat, and police decide maybe it’s worth publicising – but this causes some internal argument. If they release a picture they risk people (for whatever motivation – most likely publicity) trying to fake one (which will just waste time and resource to analyse), so decide to publicise they’re looking for a book, but not a picture of the slip. Don’t forget, most people think at that time they thought the ‘Tamam Shud’ was a suicide indicator – surely in that light the book it came from is mildly interesting, but not something they critically need.

    Why was there any need to publicise the slip or release photos? In hindsight, we migth think it would have been useful, but looking through historical lenses is a lot easier than peering toward the future.
    Maybe we should start with: At what point did the police really realise that they were dealing with an extraordinary case? It starts as a mundane death, and as the body remains uncollected becomes mildly intriguing. Various clues might make it more or less interesting, especially as results come back from analysts. The slip is found, which adds even more intrigue, but “the end” might simply endorse their view of suicide (and while it might bug them that they haven’t ID’d the body, ultimately they’re not too concerned). Eventually they get around to telling of the slip, and the book is handed in. At this point, how interested are the police in the mystery? The identity is a mystery, and there are maybe some interesting anomalies, but ultimately many of them think it’s an unidentified suicide. Once they start to realise it might be something bigger, they have to retrospectively make sure their records are accurate enough, and by this time they’re basing a lot on memory not fact.

    I think someone previously posted when different officials first started on the case (but I can’t find it). Perhaps when different people became involved gives us some indication of the view the police had of the case at different points.

  844. Milongal, thanks for that. What strikes me as extraordinary is that Leane delivered all the evidence to Cleland then waited for over two months for him to find the slip.
    Why give a pathologist a job the police could do in a day?

  845. Tamara Bunke on January 7, 2021 at 9:02 am said:

    @Pete – Leane didn’t give the pathologist the job of finding the slip. No one knew there was anything to be found beyond the effects identified in the in situ search and later searches by police.

    Didn’t Leane simply give the pathologist the evidence so that the latter could perform whatever analyses he considered necessary in the task of identifying the circumstance and cause of death?

  846. Exactly, I talked myself out of it today. The delay was perfectly explainable. That just leaves Leane’s 51 days.

  847. Which can also be explained ….

  848. milongal on January 13, 2021 at 3:01 am said:

    Wow, just remembered why I;m careful where I go areading.

    BIG (TODO: use thesaurus to better articulate the magnitude of the bigness) statement from across the hallway:
    “Make no mistake, the Somerton Man case is quite definitely an espionage case, and any serious research and/or study done on the case without reference to this find and the presence of microcode, is just not credible.”

    someone’s just gone “all in” (if they hadn’t already)

  849. Tamara Bunke on January 13, 2021 at 6:22 pm said:

    @Milongal … it’s depressing. Thing is, he’s being doing this for years and not one person appears to have visibly come out in support (except the mysterious Clive?). He runs the premier blog (his words) on the subject and (as he says) blocks very little comment… and yet there are almost no comments on his work. Heart-breaking, really.

  850. milongal on January 15, 2021 at 12:08 am said:

    Agree it’s depressing, although I am certain he blocks a LOT of comment (or used to when he used to get it**). I used to read the site back when Pavel was a certainty (except that was before we knew Pavel as Pavel, but instead thought Novikov was Pavel, who might have looked like Tibor).

    I used to regularly challenge him (under different identities, most often simply the default “Anonymous”) and they’d get culled – sometimes with a passive-agressive follow-up about “anonymous commentators”…..fun times.

    **I think over time a lot of people have stopped reading for all those reasons – which is a shame because in between the craziness there’s sometimes some interesting ideas coming out (The Pavel stuff was interesting, but it got held on for AGES even after it was demonstrably wrong – at which point it becomes hard to follow). But there was a time when I think most of the readers here were also readers there. Part of the other thing that’s turned people off I suspect is the abrasive manner that’s sometimes seen when dealing with detractors – in fact I think there’s entire posts dedicated to attacking (almost personal attacks, not just criticising a particular viewpoint) our host here (and possibly at different times PeteB too).

    NB: I think somebody (possibly JS) used to suggest that ‘Clive’ is likely his own alter-ego. I think there were a couple of times where a reply to a post appeared to be made by Clive but came out as GC (afterwards clarified as ‘Clive told me’ or something).

  851. milongal: if there is any information there that genuinely throws any kind of light onto the Somerton Man, I’ve yet to find it. And the personal attacks don’t help, no.

  852. Guilty in that respect. Reformed for the better. Now love ❤️ is in the air.

  853. john sanders on January 22, 2021 at 7:40 am said:

    To all you Tbt ‘follow my leader’ believers. “Fools! your reward is neither here nor there!”…Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam’s letter Q count found randomly through all editions be seven at the very least, including one in the second quatrain of some editions…But if you really want some high letter Q yeilds, try the Vietnamese spy version!

  854. john sanders on January 22, 2021 at 10:43 pm said:

    Correct Byron..and of course we also have the original Omar K’s ROK text with some hundreds of verses, now thankfully translated into Latinised Turkish and known as the ‘Persian Version’ or ‘Perversion’ for short. I’d think that it would include as many letter Qs as we could expect in an Urdo dialect and we might be lucky and find the odd one with micro writing inset for effect.

  855. john sanders on January 23, 2021 at 4:18 am said:

    Above mention of ‘Urdu dialect’ was a little off. Persian script, as with it’s modern Turkish form plus ‘Q’ laiden Romanised lettering being Farsi of course. Not to be confused with the English hoax word ‘farcicle’ which alligns to the Tbt inspired quest for multilingual coded ROK translations.

  856. john sanders on January 23, 2021 at 11:28 am said:

    Farcical also works just fine for those fastious spell freaks.

  857. Tamara Bunke on January 30, 2021 at 4:56 pm said:

    Anyone know what the “big changes ahead” are that GC is trailing? The suspense is killing me.

  858. Tamara Bunke: let’s just hope it doesn’t involve microwriting or spies… but best not hold your breath waiting.

  859. john sanders on January 30, 2021 at 11:35 pm said:

    I fully concur with Anon’s bca breaking news, change being merely any artful dodger worth his or her salt’s contingency escape hatch. It’s the shake-up that has my attention, specifially GC’s feeling of euphoria (sad in away) that denotes some form of harmful plot against a perceived hostile force, vis. “The fake John Sanders character’s detected 20? IP listings that denotes connection to the dark web and affiliations to organized paedophile links” circa June ’20.

  860. john sanders on January 31, 2021 at 7:14 am said:

    Blowie on me dunny wall claims that Anon’s “big changes” relates to unauthorised pliageristic regurgitation of fake microwriting by Peter Bowes for which he was censured. “Surprise to some”, probably involves commencement of formal legal proceedings for misappropriation of an indentured gopher, to wit Clive Turner through coersion, hence the “sad in a way” (poor Clive) after word. Forget what the other threat involved but it shouldn’t ‘t deter us from exposing those who try to push their on line flim flam ploys on unwary dupes.

  861. A book has just been published about a 1950 espionage case involving ASIO, the NSW police, a young mother and MI5 where they set up a spook sting on a Russian Tass rep working out of Kings Cross, name of Fedor Nosov.
    And as much as I don’t like to blow this trumpet lying idle by my side, it does sound a little like something someone we all know wrote about some years ago.

  862. Whether or not news here: “Minoan Language Linear A Linked to Linear B in Groundbreaking New Research,” Greek Reporter, Jan. 28
    https://greece.greekreporter.com/2021/01/28/minoan-language-linear-a-linked-to-linear-b-in-groundbreaking-new-research/

  863. john sanders on January 31, 2021 at 11:18 pm said:

    That’s right Peteb, Nostov was exposed by our esteamed resident trumpet blowers Cramer, Deveson, Abbott and co. way way back around 2013/4 before my time. Something to do with ASIO’s amazingly efficient plant/operative Makarov, parties in Wollongong with Wally Klod’s boys, chess comps. at Pakies in Elizabeth St. and the like. I think you may even have regurgitaed some of that heady mood as late as a few months back, like a bugle blast from the past which to your credit you have modestly glossed over as is your infernal wont.

  864. Two things, Johnno: the pasty he ate shortly before he died and the graze between the knuckles on his right hand.

  865. Tamara Bunke on February 1, 2021 at 1:16 pm said:

    Out of interest… can anyone see the micro-writing in the Hays Banknote? I think I can maybe see some (very unclear, can’t be certain), but only in the stacked horizontal “lines”. Perhaps unsurprisingly, that’s nowhere near as much as the Kenilworth Copper is seeing.

    Just wondered if there was a consensus on whether he’s fantasizing about that too?

  866. john sanders on February 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm said:

    No witness attested to any pasty having been consumed before expiry, that being a proposition based on some undigested spud found in the bread basket during Doc Dwyer’s probe from memory. As for the knuckles, we should certainly not discount Nick’s confident claims re boxing/wrestling, perhaps in a local Glenelg Sharman tent or the like. My pet view of those strange, recently inflicted webbing lacerations has always been that they were the consequence of SM’s assisted arm raising/dropping motions, seen by Lyons and capably performed by some string pulling puppet master at the railing above.

  867. john sanders on February 1, 2021 at 2:08 pm said:

    Tamara Bunke: I’m sure theres micro writing, though I’ve never bothored to conduct any close scrutiny, to what end anyhow. The uncirculated novelty non legal tender monopoly notes certainly have nought to do with a 1948 beach body, though perhaps we should not underestimate CGC’s ability to spring a big surprise when pressed.

  868. milongal on February 1, 2021 at 8:38 pm said:

    I reckon I could see it on the Banknote. A long time ago I said something along the lines of “Nobody doubts microwriting exists, but there’s a significant problem with it being on the SM stuff” (I think it was in relation to the banknote). GC seemed to take it as an endorsement of his ideas, and even that I’d somehow suggested the rest of the lunacy had some merit…..

    I’m comfortable there’s teeny tiny writing on the banknotes (although from memory I agreed it was in the barbed-wire design (or whatever it is ) on either side of the note, and not necessarily other places it was claimed. I have a feeling, though, that I concluded it would be bigger than the writing claimed to be on much of the SM stuff.
    I also (as ever) reiterate that the purpose of such a code would be that it can be read and understood. Aside from needing to believe that the microcode has transferred through multiple mediums (the pictures we have aren’t tracings on the original paper, they are photos of tracings on a separate paper – I think someone (maybe NP?) suggested possibly via glass)….We are talking about something that needed to be visible in 1948 using 1948 techniques – and yet here we are finding ‘something’ but not being able to discern it. Of course, the obvious argument is all those changes of media I mentioned before made it harder to recover….but I call BS on them simply because I can’t understand how the microcode was transferred.
    In fact, maybe that’s the bit people need to demonstrate for me to be less skeptical. Write some tiny writing (doesn’t have to be as small as the microcode – I get it’s difficult) in light pencil on a piece of paper. Put another piece of paper (or tracing paper, or glass) over the top, and trace the shape (not the teeny writing) with a texta. Then show me you can recover your original writing.

    Short Version: There’s a difference between “Microcode is real and was used” and “Microcode is on everything linked to the SM case”. I have no issue with the idea the Hay Banknotes have microwriting.

    Aside: As many would know, since Aus has had polymer banknotes there’s been micro-printing on them. The “old” $10 (the blue one before the current one) had “The man from snowy river” in the background to Banjo Patterson’s picture. And of course everyone was frantically collecting the “new” $50 note after the first batch(es) came out with ‘responsibilty’ instead of ‘responsibility’ in the microwriting of Edith Cowan’s speech in the background behind her picture….

  869. john sanders on February 1, 2021 at 11:02 pm said:

    Most observant pub punters could find the name of the Aussie sailing ship on the five dollar bluey? from memory. It was on tiny flag up in the main mast staff and I remember it was Waverley. Likewise the old prewar Kraut Reischmark notes were covered in micro from memory.

  870. Champagne, anyone?

  871. john sanders on February 3, 2021 at 4:23 am said:

    Peteb: All credit where credit’s due. “An interesting find….” indeed, indeed (GC).
    Byron D. hit a nerve for me with mention of press ‘word skill’ competitions….An internationally renowned chess guru and word games inventor who got himself seconded to the S.A. Dept. of Education for his letter/word/numerical tuition skills, was a George Abraham Wilson/Brown GAB?. He was best known for his columns in all the big city publications and editors couldn’t get enough of his unique styled brain teasers. No doubt some of the talent carried through to his closest relatives, eg., daughter Alma and grandson Keith Waldemar Mangnoson, which I seem to recall mentioning…Sure hope your like efforts draw crowds rather than crabs.

  872. john sanders on February 4, 2021 at 2:55 am said:

    ….Still, that struck second code line does not bode so well for the one way type of IQ test set up we’re reviewing so favourably. There can’t be much doubt as to it’s acrostic behaviour as such, though perhaps the deal may have been set up as a double teaser for the more competent gamer of yore.

  873. john sanders on February 4, 2021 at 7:14 am said:

    Seems like the promised big shake up was simply to do with Moya, S.A. born ex wife of U.S. Diplomat and alleged spy Bayard LeRoy King from the BS/TS files, seen to be consorting with SM founding father Mike Dash of Smithsonian Inst. Redacted, who’s real identity is not a well kept secret, has resumed activities over at Big Footy with his Samsung crapatalk device back in service. There is a file photo of the once glamorous twin and promise of more revelations pointing to a hot deception plot though dates might not align. Sad in a way, I was hoping for some down and dirty in house cleansing.

  874. john sanders on February 5, 2021 at 6:59 am said:

    Peteb’s four letters A at position 7 on lines 1 3 4 5 with eight starters would indeed take some beating Clive, though the four letters M on lines 1 2 3 4 at position 1, plus two more at position 4 gap 4 on the last line might take running down in a two letter field.

  875. john sanders on February 5, 2021 at 8:40 am said:

    ….take 4 more brisk paces from M along line five and the next 4 letter gap will land us back on an anither letter A which missed out on Peteb’s final solution….Anyone up for a glass of S.A. Barossa Sparkling Porphyry Pearl.

  876. Way to go, Johnno, the narrative has changed.

  877. milongal on February 7, 2021 at 9:01 pm said:

    @JS – no offence, but I’m starting to hear Danetta as you manoeuvre your ‘A’s

  878. john sanders on February 10, 2021 at 9:04 am said:

    Tamam Shud Blog Spot: One Prediction for 2021……No Comments…No Wonder!

  879. milongal on February 10, 2021 at 8:31 pm said:

    I’m partiuclarly interested in #9 – the resurrection of PIF. Can’t imagine too much new information pertinent to SM about him (although there was no assertion it would be pertinent, I suppose).
    Mind you many of them are potentially self-fulfilling – write a post about Tibor, and *bang* #7 is covered…..

    The extrapolation from ‘Online Abuse’ to ‘trolls’ is an interesting one. I suspect a lot of what is claimed to be abusive by different online commentors might not be considered “Seriously harmful” by ACSC (and partner/parent agencies) – not to mention the ever-present challenge of applying Australian Law in an international jurisdiction….and it’s currently draft legislation – on Monday we might have a better idea where Labor and the crossbench sit on it – much as they would broadly support the intent, the devil is often in the detail, and you would expect many stakeholders will have concerns around stifling free speech (I’ve not read the Bill itself, merely what’s presented in the media – but that doesn’t always paint a complete picture).

    Oh &@PB re caressing with one hand and slapping with the other (which I assume didn’t intend any innuendo) – I’ve learnt from the best in persuing the sites of SM tragics :).

  880. john sanders on February 11, 2021 at 9:20 am said:

    I had been wondering on retrospectivity until just now, when Gordon Cramer kindly made mention of an overly generous five years for back issues. Less than a year back our concerned champion of troll impeachment made a “fraudien slip” for which I contemplated doing something drastic until sense redirected my ire more towards judicial payback. Whatever notion direct the spited to stoop so low I’ll never know, but now legal options are at hand for we innocents who have suffered too long at the hands of such fiends. Legal recourse for the falacious on line charges back in June 2020 pertaining to me using up to 20 IPs for my dark web affiliations ie., international criminal cartels and child porno outlets will be sweet indeed. Knowing that justice for evil acts by evil carniving micro handed frauds will no longer be tolerated must be the big shake up that ‘Anonymous’ was on about. I guess some commenters might best be wary of what they hope for in this coming year of the buffalo…Cong Hee Fat Choy to all Asians and Ang Pow. there.

  881. john sanders on February 27, 2021 at 8:47 am said:

    Salacious..Salacious..Salacious with it’s regular misrepresented meanings could once only be confronted with on old but now newly designated leading dedicated Somerton Man espionage site with ever so clever and manipulative CGC as master of mystery just waiting to pounce on any opportunity to strutt his lies and inuendous spy fi clap trap. Gone, it seems are the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander and AFIO affiliated intro headers we were all once so impressed with.

    Well guess what folks; that word Salacious is now cropping up under CGC’s well known ‘Redacted’ by line, not on the BS/TS blog but over at Big Footy where most of us can’t get a gurnsey these days. The most imaginative con job yet attempted under cover of the Samsung Tapatalk sign off is, that our imposter has reverted to using Aussie slang to disguise his quaint Cockney accent vis. ‘Blokes & Sheilas’ indeed, indeed. If that’s the best GC (sick) can manage we’re still in with a chance.

  882. milongal on March 3, 2021 at 2:59 am said:

    A little offtopic……if you can find a pic of SM that’s bigger than 300×300 pixels you can “bring him to life” at https://www.myheritage.com/deep-nostalgia

    Not creepy at all

  883. milongal on March 10, 2021 at 8:20 pm said:

    I just read this somewhere, and I’m laughing so hard I’m not even sure how to articulate what’s wrong with it:
    “… where it is clearly related to espionage, you cannot use the code lessons or maths learned at Uni….”

    I’m guessing we train our intelligence officers with code and Maths that’s not taught at Uni.
    There’s part of me that almost sees the point being made, but even so I disagree with it most vehemently. I take the point that researching Pure (or even Applied) Maths is not necessarily required to become an intelligence agent – and that people could be taught how to encrypt or decrypt information without necessarily understanding the Maths behind it – but the thought that agents have “clever” techniques that they make up on the fly that would resist any statistical or mathematical analysis is ridiculous. Perhaps more ridiculous is the idea that they can make a code on the fly that some intended target will understand how to decrypt. This is a new level of fantasy land.

  884. john sanders on March 11, 2021 at 2:19 am said:

    milongal: I honestly don’t share your grounds for mirth but then again I have no real concept of what form of math one might expect from a university education. Now if you really want some ideas on how we train our intelligence officers apropose of their lectern taught cryptic skills and techniques, the one to ask might very well be the bloke before you in the queue. David Oranchak could go toe to toe with the very best of the spooks in coded lines and other espionage tradecraft generally, without need for math skills, pure, applied or even polymath at a pinch.

  885. Peteb on March 11, 2021 at 8:47 am said:

    Mick Herron … reading him helps, plus he’s a very funny fellow.

  886. john sanders on March 11, 2021 at 12:17 pm said:

    Peteb: Despite the ‘up to Oxford’ Balliol College credentials no less, which goes against the grain of what milongal suggests for espionage spycraft intuitive drill, young Mick sounds like the sort of spy yarn teller a bloke should make some effort to zone in on. I’ll definately make the effort… Thanks for the tip.

  887. peteb on March 12, 2021 at 2:59 am said:

    “Perhaps more ridiculous is the idea that they can make a code on the fly that some intended target will understand how to decrypt. This is a new level of fantasy land.” Milongal.

    What’s not to say the two Farsi words, Tamam Shud wasn’t a code made up on the fly intending someone to understand how to decrypt?

  888. Peteb on March 12, 2021 at 9:44 am said:

    Let’s draw Nick the Honourable Pelling in here by asking him if he considers the characters in the Voynich manuscript comprise a language.

  889. john sanders on March 13, 2021 at 9:15 am said:

    Peteb: I’m inclined to agree with you again; unfortunately it’s becoming a habit since taking on Gordon’s suggestion that we should try to be nice. Anyhow, it’s obvious to all that the unamed nurse recognised her former deep cover associate from their war years together ship counting. Not withstanding that she must also have been taken in by the starkness of the white plaster bust, unadorned but for a few non pubic hairs protruding from it’s broad shoulders which would make many a strong constitution feel woozey. Of course the assumption that she may’ve also been suffering yet another bout of dreaded morning sickness with Kate in her womb is no excuse for the rudeness shown towards her grey suited interrogators. As for how SM could have gotten her phone number upin arrival in Adelaide, might I suggest that he did as Detective Feltus did and look it up in the 1947 phone directory.

  890. But how did he know she’d renamed herself?

  891. john sanders on March 14, 2021 at 4:17 am said:

    You’ve lost me there Peteb. I’ve been operating under the assumption that Alf’s 20 year old companion Jessie Thomson, printers assistant from Melbourne was in the habit of using an actual given monicker during her time in the service and beyond. So your SM’s obtaining of the number(s) would thus have been an elementry ‘let your fingers do the walking’ through the Adelaide white pages directory for Sister Thomson of Glenelg or perhaps a new pink pages listing under ‘Clinic Distributors’ of Hindley St. City for the second number that Feltus knew nothing about.

  892. john sanders on March 14, 2021 at 6:34 am said:

    ….and as a matter of interest to those so inclined; the phone subscriber beneath Sister J. E. Thomson in the ’47 directory is undoubtedly the young widow Jessie Muir Thomson nee MacFarlane formerly of Port Lincoln. Following her hubby George’s sudden death at Gladstone just a year or so after their gala wedding reception at the local Pier Hotel in 1940, she removed to Toorak Gdns. Thence to East Glenelg. There she lived out her days and passed in 2009, soon after that of her imposter near namesake.

  893. heh heh … someone’s back in the chaff business, eh Dusty?

  894. milongal on March 14, 2021 at 8:19 pm said:

    Not sure if you missed my point PB, but I’m not sure I get yours.

    From memory I was referring to an assertion loosely along the lines of spies and foreign actors literally making up how to encrypt things as necessity dictates. This *might* almost make sense if you’re trying to hide something that you want to recover yourself later – but it makes no sense at all if you’re expecting to pass it to someone else expecting them to decrypt.
    It would be sort of like encrypting something with a one time pad, but not sharing that pad with the people you want to share the message with.

    @JS I thought I posted something along these lines the other day – you don’t necessarily need a formal education in math to encrypt/decrypt (or even analyse or break ciphers), but the notion that a method of encryption someone uses in the field is resistant to statistical analysis because it was created without a knowledge of Math is nonsensical. Hiding from (or strengthening against) mathematical analysis is incredibly difficult – and many ciphers can be identified by analysing the ciphertext (even without necessarily being able to break it despite knowing the method). Even measuring the entropy can often flag whether a (long) series of characters is likely to be an encryption (I’d imagine this is discussed in Beale articles on this blog….it certainly is elsewhere). So I accept (as I always have) the point that agents are not necessarily formally qualified in Mathematics – but that actually makes them LESS likely to be able to produce encryption mechanisms that resist Mathematical analysis on them by nerds with mortarboards. If only ignorance were such a valuable tool in strengthening a cipher.

  895. My point being, Milongal, is that language itself can be used as a cipher.

  896. john sanders on March 15, 2021 at 6:21 am said:

    We’re now being asked by self confessed non research fellow Peteb a simple question vis. “When did Harkness flip to Thomson?”… Simple answer is, nobody knows and nobody ever will, in so much as the original identity of the woman connected with the Somerton Man inquiry, one Jessica Ellen Harkness is a rather fanciful conclusion based on little. Offered up by a non blood related academic with feined cover interest in a particular pressing of Fitzgerald’s Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam back around 2009…There’s no doubting that the sought woman existed, but exactly who she was, where she came from and what she may or may not have had to do with the dead man of 1948 is just as much a mystery as the unknown man perse. Of course we do know what became of the professor’s lady following the events of ’48 and ’49 and should DNA samples be of value at some stage, we know where to go for them. If some 100 watt brain can come forward with a definative answer to the ‘nurse’ enigma, than perhaps we’ll either have a means to progress, alternative being we’re destined to continue forever down a proverbial long lane.

    NB: The Sapol Historical Assoc., through their archival journal Hew & Cry, do not recognise any significance to a particular unamed nurse, listed in their indices merely as being number (314?), an unsuccessful ID witness’s. I’m fully agree with their take on things.

  897. Peteb on March 15, 2021 at 9:11 am said:

    Well, we know when it wasn’t. The first mention of Harkness’ phone number in the classifieds was July 47.

  898. john sanders on March 15, 2021 at 10:23 pm said:

    Peteb: There was never any mention of a Harkness’ phone number in the classifieds that I’m aware of; perhaps you’re referring to the Nth. Glenelg Harkness. Or is it Thomson of 90A Moseley St. you’re on about.

  899. peteb on March 16, 2021 at 1:12 am said:

    JohnS: Jessica Harkness, as she was once known in Sydney, changed her name to Thomson either while she was in Melbourne or soon after arriving Adelaide about July 1947, being the first month I could find that the Moseley St phone number appeared in the classifieds. Prior to that there was evidence that George was house-hunting using another phone number. That puts him in Adelaide waiting for her.
    Whoever wrote her (Harkness / Thomson’s) Glenelg phone number on the back of the Rubaiyat could only have learned of it after July 1947.
    Either he knew where to look in the phone book or was given the number.

  900. john sanders on March 16, 2021 at 11:16 am said:

    A couple or three thoughts that Gordon might like to consider while revisiting the SM crime scene, apropos tidal fluctuations etc. Firstly we must understand that the beach filming was undertaken from a better suited stairway further north of the original site close to the kiosk on the Broadway. Next relates to a suggestion that the the later beach panorama shot may have been comensurate with the ABC documentary date in the mid to late seventies. I see a 1960 PA Vauxall Cresta, a 1963 EJ Holden SW and two undentifiable vehicles of older vintage which could date the particular still up to a decade or so earlier hence need for re evaluation . Lastly and most important in my view concerns the original Alvington stairway which clearly shows an angled set of risers but no stair treads and I’ve always wondered why this should be. While Gordon is dealing with his all important ‘Time & Tide WFNM’ overview, perhaps he might like to consider my humble appraisals.

  901. milongal on March 16, 2021 at 8:35 pm said:

    Thanks for directing me there JS. Seems GC is just figuring out what we’ve asserted for a long time – that the tide must have reached the rocks that night.

    I think, though, that we have to dismiss some of the step calculations. It looks to me in those pictures that although the later photo appears to have steeper steps on the upper flight, the actual step size looks smaller than the original – and obviously the calculation using average step height assume not only that all of these sets of steps have the same height step, but that they all are the average height.
    I also think the state of the beach today is less relevant, because for the last few decades (since at least the 80’s) there’s been concern of sand eroding from one beach and washing or blowing to another. As a result, Sand Carting became a regular thing between beaches. I particularly remember activity around West Beach, Henley/Grange, Semaphore and Largs – but I wouldn’t be surprised if it also happened on the more Southern beaches.

    Anyways, piqued my interest enough to watch the developments on that one….

  902. john sanders on March 18, 2021 at 4:45 am said:

    Peteb: Confirmation bias is always great for dramatic effect, especially when such drama arises mainly from long accepted and improved hearsay. Examples might include one single ROK being found near the body, a single secreted Tamam Shud slip, a rigid last meal and expiry time frame based on a most uncertain pathology. All these and more convenient known facts in your humble estimation, ‘Truths’ that a bright minded person will take issue with by offering alternatives in fair rebuttal. I’ve tripped you up on this sort of caper in the past and enjoyed it mostly when my taunts were inevitably ignored. As they say it’s just a game of wits played out mostly by decrepit fifty percenters and we may as well act the goat while the boat’s afloat. Right?…

  903. john sanders on March 19, 2021 at 4:59 am said:

    For Gordon’s help in his current project appropos tidal effects on the Somerton seawall near Alvington beach stairs, particularly to ascertaining X marks the spot inundation heights, he’ll still need to fully comprehend the strange stair setup of which I have alluded to frequently. In order for the steeply angled stair risers to correctly abbut and securely connect with the horizontal foot treads for safe normal useage, there would need to be some rigid overlapping or full interjoin with both ends. There is no evidence of any such provision noted in the very clear 1948 photo and whatsmore the foot treads are only noticeable by their complet,e absence…Further to my comment about dating, I’m quite sure, apart from the vehicle year models, that other objects such as the comparison size of the Norfolk pine, telegraph pole condition and general street level landscape scene does lend weight to the second photograph being mid sixties as opposed to mid or late seventies vintage.

  904. Peteb on March 21, 2021 at 2:51 am said:

    He had a couple, three scars on the inside of his left (?) arm .. what were they, an erasure?

  905. john sanders on March 21, 2021 at 4:30 am said:

    Heresay be the weapon of choice whenever punters of the ‘scenes we’d like to see’ fraternity gather to compare their SM yarns in a competition for the title Fantasy King of Somerton shores. My money’s on the local fancy.

  906. john sanders on March 21, 2021 at 12:50 pm said:

    The three parallel scars relate in all probability to the original direct person to person transfer method of smallpox vaccination, common before more modern means of innoculation which was later universally adopted and derived from animal syrum applied by scratch needles to the upper left arm region. Numerous examples can be found in the individual service records of WW1 diggers, particularly, those hailing from country Victoria.

  907. Smallpox vaccination was usually done on the upper arm .. I can vouch for this as that’s where my scar is, vintage 1963.

  908. milongal on March 22, 2021 at 4:30 am said:

    Been having a look at the Mangnoson inquest and what seems to leap out is that (other than the war-related issues he had) the fire at 10 Magarey shook him up. Although he seems to have a sketchy employment record, they didn’t seem short a few bob, specificially:
    11/11/1948 He disappeared with 20 pound and house plans for some land they planned to build on in Richmond, and reappeared some time later in a state unable (or unwilling) to discuss what he’d done with the money and papers. Later it discusses he was granted a pension of just over 10 pound a fortnight (later reduced closer to 5 pound) so 20 pound seems a reasonable whack to blow.
    Further, he had bought his Mother-in-Law out of the house in Magarey St (although they didn’t insure it – or at least they lost a lot of uninsured stuff in the fire) – and had bought the land in Richmond (although I get the impression that might have been some sort of returned-service helping hand, so it might have been cheap).

    A lot of Mangnoson’s behaviour is dismissed as mental instability (post-ware neurosis) but it’s easy to imagine something shady going on behind it all. While reading about his land at Richmond, I’m reminded of a J Keane that appears in S&M in Shierlaw St Richmond around the time (from memory the record persists into the 1950s so we’ve dismissed it before). I’m also sort of interested that if they already had house plans, they had presumably engaged an architect and/or builder (which in itself would cost a few shekels you’d imagine) so it would seem they had (or had had) some money around somewhere. They also seem to have some sort of arrangement with Harmstorf the wood merchant on Military Rd – where it sounds like they’d pay him a fair chunk, and then grab wood as they needed it one wheelbarrow at a time (I considered whether perhaps that’s where the 20 pound went, but can’t resolve in my head how much wood that sort of money resolves to – and why all the mystery about where the money went then).
    And if we look more broadly at his parents as well (not just his situation) we have the house at 12 Magarey plus seemingly links to some land on the Alma Plains. It also talks about a train return from the Nadda district (can’t remember if it was immediately after he got lost) to visit the Royal Adelaide Hospital – but from memory with his mum. So it seems the whole family travelled there for he and his father to work there. In any event, although they definitely seem working class, they don’t sound like they’re struggling.

    But in terms of the incident with Clive, assuming they didn’t go for a long-winded wander (which is not impossible), he took Clive up Magarey to Military Rd, presumably turned left toward the Wood Merchant, and then disappeared toward Fort Largs (It seems Strathfield Tce didn’t exist then, and I’m getting the impression even if some of the roads were there, the housing would have run out before Seafield St. That being said, because he wasn’t found for a couple of days there’s nothing to say he went straight to the bushes on the beachfront.

    There’s a lot of strange to the story (some of which I’m still scratching at) – and down to probable mistakes (like the inquest quoting Roma’s mother calling her Mona – I don’t know whether this is likely a stenotypers mistake?). It also seems at the time he was working as a “trimmer” for ETSA (Electricity Trust of South Australia – no longer exist, the infrastructure is now run by PowerNetworks SA (or similar)). I assume a “trimmer” trims grass, trees and bushes that might be in the way for electrical infrastructure. It seems odd, then, that at the time of him absconding his wife talks about him having been working night shifts…..Maybe I’ve totally misunderstood what a “trimmer” does (maybe they cut cable as its rolled out?) but it seems hard to imagine what sort of work (other than emergency service restoration) ETSA technicians would be doing at night.
    But we’ll see whether it goes anywhere it hasn’t gone before – I know others have had fairly thorough looks into his story in the past.

  909. john sanders on March 22, 2021 at 9:21 am said:

    I would implore you to check for veracity of the multiple skin scratch deal on google under headings like smallpox/variolation/inoculation/Jenner 1792.

  910. john sanders on March 22, 2021 at 10:00 am said:

    ….Peteb, a smallpox scar is actually wide spread and overlapping like acne. An upper arm smallpox vaccination on the other hand is indeed singular and mostly crater like follow a succesful take.

  911. john sanders on March 22, 2021 at 11:14 am said:

    Keith Mangno. had been under doctor’s orders, presumably inhouse at red cross veteran’s centre Glenelg with possible day visits to Glenside psych. clinic between 14th November ’48 to 7th January ’49. On that day he contacted Errol Caney and Hec Gollan with his Carl Thompsen story, having seen the newspaper photo whilst undergoing convalescence during the three preceeding weeks, the identified his old work mate at the morgue. Following that he returned home, got work with ETSA as a line trimmer and the rest is history…Keith was inclined to go off the rails but no fool, being from a family of wiz kids on mum’s Wilson-Wistrand side. When located with his dead son in the briar patch, he had his pencil, eraser and Saturday’s Advertiser crossword to work on. NB: Another id witness name of Salomonson was also staying at the Kapara red cross home in Nov/Dec, 1948.

  912. john sanders on March 22, 2021 at 11:29 am said:

    ….be interesting to know if Keith had been tackling the cryptic puzzle and if he got it out!

  913. milongal on March 22, 2021 at 7:49 pm said:

    Weren’t they different Red Cross homes? I had an idea that at different times Keith was in ones in the inner North East (Klemzig, Hampstead, Enfield etc). Couldn’t really work out why he’d go there – it’s possible that they were considered closest (or best equipped), but I would have expected there to be one at Sempahore – and Henley would have to be a similar distance as Hampstead, you’d think…..
    In between he also visited the RAH and Glenside.

  914. john sanders on March 22, 2021 at 11:01 pm said:

    Kapara in Moseley St. had been operating to receive convalescing WW1 boys after they came home wounded. It was re-vamped in 1940 but much bigger to prepare for the WW2 war neurosis cases that were expected. Keith was certainly there at some point presumably at my stated time and that is evidenced by his making contact with Glenelg police about Carl Thompsen.

  915. milongal on March 23, 2021 at 8:20 pm said:

    From inquest into Clive’s death:
    – Roma introduced as “wife of Keith Waldemar Mangnoson, now a patient in the Mental Hospital Parkside”
    – On his return from his wanderings 11/11 (ie around the 15th Nov 1948) the visiting doctor ordered him to Enfield Receiving Home (presumably at Enfield – Inner NE suburbs)
    – After his discovery with Clive’s body he was referred to RAH for treatment
    – Oct 25 1948 he had been referred to RAH for possible Gall Bladder issue
    – Late ’39/early ’40 he went to Nadda for some wood chopping (‘for about 3 months’)
    – After his Nadda wandering he was taken to Loxton Public Hospital
    – Drs advised he should transfer to RAH (he and his mum journeyed by train – which I misinterpreted in an earlier post). During this time he was nervous and Excitable at any noise.
    – He was then transferred to the Magill Convalescent Home (inner Eastern Suburbs) for a few weeks
    – A Dr there recommended that he be transferred to Enfield as he wasn’t responding to treatment for 3 months
    – From there he was taken ‘home’ to some ‘friends’ on the Alma Plains for a few weeks
    – His AIF service was AFTER this incident and in the Middle East, then Pacific (in between he stayed at Magarey St)
    – His return from the pacific saw him taken to Northfield Military Hospital (Inner North East – I think that’ might be what became Hampstead Rehab (I know that side of Hampstead Rd is Northfield/Northgate (Northgate is a new (<20 years) housing estate and I think that entire area was Northfield before that). That said, the Hampstead Barracks (on Mullers Rd, Greenacres) may have had an on-base hospital.
    – After discharge from the army he returned home to Magarey St and lived there until he got married and moved next door
    – 8 June 1949 he was removed to Parkside Mental

    The above is taken from Wife, Mum and a policeman at the city watch-house. Ida's recollection seems to be quite thorough in terms of which hopsitals/homes he went to – but doesn't mention Kaparra (or anything in the Glenelg area). If I get a chance, I might try to build some of that into a timeline to see if there is any period of time that he might have been able to be in Kaparra – but all of the hospitals and military service are from mid-late 1940…..which doesn't on the face of it seem to leave much time for a stint down Glenelg way.

    (Maybe) Interestingly, Clive's death certificate is for 6th of June – the day Keith was found, even though the attending doctor seemed to suggest Clive had been dead for 24-48 hrs.

    NB: his original wanderings with the lost 20 pound and house plans was on remembrance day 1948 (and for 4 days after) – something I only realised as I was typing the date out myself…

  916. john sanders on March 23, 2021 at 11:39 pm said:

    milongal: Whether Keith was in Kapara red cross or nay is not the point, I merely suggested this in light of his having been in the immediate area when SM died, as indeed was witness Salomonson, substantiated by contemporaneous respective reports to Glenelg Police. All his pre/post war meanderings, military service and later institutionalisations, along with lead up to the sad events of May 1949, plus Mona’s related testimony have been essentially covered on three separate CM threads. Imo recapituation of these events without introducing any new issues for consideration is not going to advance our knowledge one iota. Sorry but I mean it!

  917. john sanders on March 24, 2021 at 5:20 am said:

    Peteb: So what about your old Bondi buddy John Ruffles, who in effect started the whole espionage ball rolling though missing it’s eventual race to the bottom of the harbour. Unrelenting hoards of soviet assassins dressed in hand-me-downs, make believe bedpan nurses, gentleman officers, a treasonous knight of the realm or two and a plodding gaggle of SA’s not so finest just to name a few; what a furtile immagination. Did he ever get to write his promised answer to ‘Atom Spies’ or just continue with his patriotic OHMS deliveries until retirement ..You’ll recall that veteran Journo Ray Burgess worked on an SM special report with him around 1974, well before the in depth interview with Littlemore in ’78 and claimed that honest John worked at Vic. Barracks (?) in some undisclosed military capacity. Yet hear we have him in 1975 dressed to the nines in his PMG kit & Kaboodle for an NAA ten pic filing as if he’d been at the job for years…Perhaps you could get im on the blower to see what gives; tell him you know a cove who was anhialated by his his big brother Ray at White City.

  918. john sanders on March 24, 2021 at 7:44 am said:

    Peteb: Nice little synopsis on Olive’s disclosure to Feltus about her man upstairs. Only one minor point needs attention but not to worry, I’m not about to squeal just yet and I’m sure Gerry will keep his counsel as always. Meantime you’ve got five minutes to change the wording and none of the punters will need know you took advantage of their SM case ignorance.

  919. Peteb on March 24, 2021 at 9:16 am said:

    What have I got to be worried about now, punctuation?

  920. milongal on March 24, 2021 at 7:43 pm said:

    @JS: Sorry, I must have misinterpreted some of the comments, including
    “Salomanson was ALSO there” and
    “Keith was certainly there at some point”

    I read them to imply Keith had actually been admitted to Kapara, not might have wandered nearby at some time. TBH, I don’t even know where “…having been in the immediate area when SM died…” comes from. While I’d be surprised if any Adelaidean hadn’t been near Glenelg at some stage, I can’t find anything to suggest he ever was – at least not in or around 1948.

    And FWIW: I think going back over stuff often triggers new avenues to investigate – it’s sort of what everyone does here, no? Keep revisiting different aspects of the case in the hope that some side-diversion will lead to something new. In any event, I’m happy to dig back into that stuff – even if to find that whatever Mangnoson’s troubles were they had nothing to do with SM.

  921. john sanders on March 24, 2021 at 10:17 pm said:

    Peteb: Never got high grades for punctuation nor spelling for that matter, but in later years name recognition and association were better than average. I don’t ever recall the name Feltus ever beng connected to a latter day interview with Olive Neill about her man upstairs on 31/11/48.

  922. john sanders on March 24, 2021 at 10:33 pm said:

    milongal: Fair enough on possible new leads from recapitulation. I seem to recall that as a fugitive from Parkside/Glenside, Keith was known to have been hanging around Glenelg beach before being subsequently recaptured in the Adelaide foothills near his brother’s house or some such but that was circa. 1950…Brother? Andrew from memory an inventor, eventually went missing from his home at Payneham, never to return and leaving £10,000 in his bank account unclaimed to this day.

  923. john sanders on March 25, 2021 at 5:09 am said:

    Every thing old being new again, a few little rinky dink facts re the Mangnoson clan for digesting at leisure. In the years 1900 through 1973 only a single Mangnoson is mentioned in S&Mc. alphabetical listing, that being I for Ian Andrew George who lived at Campbelltown in 1960 and Eden Hills when he hit the road. But not to worry, ample sufficiency of Magnussons in later twentieth century listings including mention of an unidentified S.C. at 12 Magarey Largs in 1948 and Keith & J. at 26/28 Warwick St. Largs North in 1960 and other newcomers also from Port/Largs district in 1970 with unfamiliar initials. Interesting is the mix and match Mag/Mang name variations plus a double ‘S’ with Magnusson which we’ve discussed in past threads, also that poppa John and mama Ada never cropped up in residency the Sands. Mac. stats.

  924. john sanders on March 25, 2021 at 5:30 am said:

    Peteb: That’s better my man, sometimes it pays to do a little research. Actually I might have to do a little back pedalling myself on a possibly inaccurate critique of Redacted or PeteDavo, the twin GC deep cover agents who cover the alien blog sites.

  925. john sanders on March 25, 2021 at 6:02 am said:

    milongal & Peteb: Actually I really stuffed up with John Salomonson too. Of course it was the as yet un-named witness staying at Kapara rest home who claims to have met fellow veteran JS over a wet one at a Glenelg pub on the Tuesday before informing local cops that he looked like SM. I’m of the opinion that this episode may indeed have been a ruse orchestrated by John Salomonson himself, who came forward voluntarilly to deflect suspicion down the track of his being possibly involved in SM’s suspicious demise. Convicted criminal Salomonson and his wife Audrey had arrived in Adelaide from Blighty the month before and were living a mile or two away in Nth. Brighton…to remind anyone else so interested.

  926. milongal on March 25, 2021 at 8:39 pm said:

    Incidentally, in the inquest (I think the first one – although a lot of statements seem to be reused verbatim for the second) they talk about the bus going to Somerton, not St Leonards (and explicitly talk about SM getting off the bus at 11:44 or 11:48 (I’ll have to double checkk – but it was a fairly specific time). I sort of took this to mean the terminus time (I don’t know how the rest of the world works, but in (most of) Australia buses aren’t timed to every stop. Rather there is a series of “time points” along a route that the bus is “guaranteed”** not to pass before the scheduled time (** theoretically that’s up to the driver but the attitude of the bus companies is “There’s a million reasons for running late, but there is NO EXCUSE for running early” – when I was with TT this came with a threat of dismissal for passing a time point more than a minute early (the pedantic trainers used to drum into us that this meant even stopping a millimetre past the post at a time point – although I’m pretty certain even if someone was monitoring buses they wouldn’t be so pedantic – the most common types of monitoring was “secret shoppers” (which I think I could identify with high accuracy) and visible bean counters at interchanges)). Anyways, so my point is that the specific time probably comes from a time point (or maybe someone’s extrapolation from a time point).

    POinting out the obvious that routing and timetabling have changed since then, let’s have a look at timings on the 263 (the most similar route – noting it starts in King William heading South rather than North Tce heading West).
    A3 (closest corner KW/North Tce): 11:16 NB: Time Point is actually stop 2 King William Road (across from Adelaide oval) where an inbound 252/253/254 changes number
    Stop 11 Anzac Highway (near the Highway Hotel just past Marion Rd): 11:41
    Stop 18 (listed as a guide not a time point for this service): 11:47
    Colley Tce Zone C: 11:52 (Note the 1948 bus would have turned off before this….I forget the exact route, but from memory it wenteither Brighton Road or Gordon/Partridge)
    Stop 28 Whyte St: 11:58

    Assuming consistent timings (a bit of a stretch – I’m sure they’ve been refined over time and adjusted for traffic – although traffic lights would have more impact than traffic in those days – and it’s possible there were fewer stops and/or less allowance for loading) that suggests he alighted before Glenelg. The commonly held story (if we’re considering St Leonards rather than Somerton Bus) is that he would have got off roughly where stop 21B Anzac Highway is these days (I think the stop used to be a block further along – but again I think the Somerton Bus would have turned off before this). This is the stop immediately before the Colley TCE “Interchange” (I’m sure they call it an interchange, even though I suspect it’s just 2 or 3 roadside stops). In any case, the estimated time there is 11:50.

    So if we consider there’s probably more traffic lights than there used to be, and accept that traffic lights have the biggest impact on running times then it’s reasonable to think that the 11:15 bus would be due at Adelphi Tce by 11:44 – and I could believe a time point being wherever the St Leonards and Somerton routes split (which would be near there).
    Equally, you would think there is not enough time to get to Somerton or St Leonards by 11:44.

    It does, however, sort of raise a question on why/how we’ve come up with this time and this location. Is it simply that it’s the closest stop on the St Leonard’s route to Moseley St? Or did the driver/conductor assert at some stage that they definitely had no passengers after that point (I don’t recall reading that anywhere). If you think about it, if the former reason is the cause of this fact, that’s actually a pretty big leap – one of the biggest assumptions in the case to persist this long. This is massive confirmation bias based on:
    1) We know he ended at Somerton Park
    2) We know JH lived in Moseley St
    3) We know he had a ticket from a St Leonard’s bus

    But in even the shortest scenario (i.e. the man on the beach that night was the body the next morning) he’s not at the beach until somewhere around 7PM. So there’s about 7 hours between the bus arriving at Adelphi St and the body being found. To me, that means all bets are off. He would have had time to go almost anywhere (even return to Adelaide and come back if he really wanted to) – so any assumption about him not going to St Leonards or not getting off the bus somewhere well before Glenelg are tenuous.

    Some time ago JS was looking into the idea of him being related to the stables at Morphetville Racecourse – Stop 15 Anzac Highway. We might even be able to clutch at a few straws and put the Henley Train into the frame. I previously speculated that it’s possible (actually this is on my TODO list to follow up) that the Henley, Semaphore and Outer Harbor lines were all ticketed as Henley – they share the same track to Woodville. Beyond Woodville, there’s St Clair. St Clair is a new suburb (maybe last decade or a little longer), and before that suburb was built that station didn’t exist, but there was one just the otherside of Cheltenham parade. This stop was “Cheltenham Racecourse” – and was eventually serviced race days only – the St Clair suburb is the land that used to be the racecourse. It’s also worth considering whether he might have intended to walk from Woodville (about 1.2km), or whether his plan was to transfer at Woodville (possibly buying another ticket – his not short of cash given he ends up buying a bus ticket elsewhere).

    So just sort of wondering whether his travel that day is based around the 2 racecourses (Morphetville and Cheltenham) rather than Glenelg and Henley. For completeness it’s also worth noting that Adelaide’s other reacecourse (Victoria Park) is just East of the city boundary – probably less than 1.5km from Adelaide Railway Station.

    All very speculative and not really evidence based – but we assume that the Henley Ticket relates to Henley and the St Leonards ticket relates to St Leonards – but in reality either of them could relate to any place anywhere along those routes.

    I also remember some link to Grenfell St (maybe related to a hostel – possibly impossibly related (e.g. the EC Johnson link – which turned out to be nothing)?). Just East off King William St along Grenfell is “Harry’s on Grenfell”. This is a 3-tier establishment (I think partially owned by Corey Bernardi’s brother as a fun factoid) with the Wurst and Stein in the Basement (who sell the “Wurst Lager” – don’t try it, it’s just a cleanskin from Lion Nathan), Harry’s Bar on the ground floor, and The Historic Tattersalls on the first floor. This last one celebrates the building’s heritage – it was, after all, the South Australian Tattersall Club – a club devoted to horse racing, and still today there is a variety of racing trophies and memorabilia in cabinets scattered around the dining room (Either there’s some clever photography or it’s recently been renovated because I remember it a lot darker and dingier than the photos I find today).

    I’m reluctant to read too much into the Bookmaker’s Association paying for the funeral – my understanding is it wasn’t uncommon to try to improve image by paying for pauper’s funerals – but it does potentially add an interesting slant. And what better reason to knock someone off and steal their money than for a gambling debt?

    In any event, if JS hasn’t exhausted that avenue, maybe it’s time to revisit what was happening in the Adelaide Horse Racing scene in late 1948.

  927. milongal on March 25, 2021 at 10:45 pm said:

    EDIT: A Lot of this I notice I’ve been over in the past. SO I’ve deleted a lot fo what I was going to include, but apologies if it still seems old hat
    I’m increasingly agreeing with JS’s advice from 2017: ” Don’t give up on this family is what I’m suggesting, they’re hot.”

    Not sure if we’ve crossed this entirely before.
    S McIntyre appears 10 Magarey S&M in 1941
    S.C. Mangnusson appears at 12 in 1944/1945

    But rewind to 1931 (first time Magarey appeats, I think):
    G Mangnonson (Carpenter) (yes it has ‘n’ everywhere)
    same for 32, 33, 34,35
    then 1936-1938: Mangoonson G
    1939: Justice T
    1940-1942L Germeine HCS
    1942 Jeffries CH
    Then our mystery Mangnusson

    So is our garbled Mangnonson/Mangnoonson related or just a bit of a coinky dink?

    There’s aunt/uncle surname SLATER somewhere in the Woods Flat (near Blanchtown North of Radelaide, and West toward Wikerie and the Maggea parts) in the 1930’s when may of them seem to be up there.

    In the 2017 thread I mentioned earlier, you dismiss Ian as not being related. Not sure if this is the Ian you refer to, there’s a DEARMAN-MANGNOSON engagement in 1950 of Pamela of ‘Orontes’ Highbury East to Ian youngest of J Mangnoson Largs Bay – who are married in ’51 and have a daughter Raelene Pamela in 1953

    It did occur to me (And again, apologies if this is old ground), that the ‘C’ in SC might be Clive (not young Clive, obviously, but perhaps he was named for someone).
    I did also consider whether ‘John’ might be some obscure translation of ‘Sven’ (or similar) – but while the two are considered similar in terms of being common and generic (John Doe ~= Sven Svensson apparently), an anglicised version of Sven is more likely Steven or similar – so I think I was barking a long bow on that one.
    NB: When Keith played cricket as a young adult he seemed to get out Caught and Bowled a lot.

  928. john sanders on March 25, 2021 at 10:59 pm said:

    Well tabled and a good model for punters wanting to put the possible SM travel routes and diverse ticketing arrangements to lose any tail perhaps…ITTMT… Interchange Train-Tram Moseley Terminal….Y’never know ?.

  929. milongal on March 26, 2021 at 2:14 am said:

    I’m starting to think J Mangnoson whose house at Swansea is inundated with sand in 1927 might not be old man Mangnoson (unless that was the trigger for the family to move bush to Wood’s Flat?). It’s almost certainly not Magarey St – which didn’t exist that early (although I suppose it could be in a similar location).

  930. john sanders on March 26, 2021 at 4:46 am said:

    Folks desirous of taking TBT’s 5 minute man upstairs test or preceeding Rubaiyat challenge then you’re too late, seems the man down stairs has bolder moves in store.

  931. john sanders on March 26, 2021 at 6:55 am said:

    Might be of some interest to ascertain Keith Mangnoson’s address in Glenelg at the time of his death 28/9/91. Perhaps something to do with the dog that returns to it’s own vomit (no disrespect intended). Kapara comes readily to mind as being suited for a returned man with long record of PTSD.

  932. john sanders on March 26, 2021 at 8:04 am said:

    milongal: Ian Andrew George bn. 1926 is indeed a mystery but a Mangnoson, by birth nonetheless. The alleged seventh and last of Ida’s kids who at 45 she seems a little long in the tooth to have been nursing, especially in that her first, a rather retiring daughter, was born in the previous century..ifn you get my drift. Young Ian never gets a mention in the family album to my knowledge, unlike the other ankle biters apart from a minor hit or two in Trove late 40s. First we really hear of him is his marriage to the shortlived Dearborn lass about 1950 and of course he later becames nominee as account holder for the unclaimed small fortune mentioned. Can’t find him dead anywhere so, as I said an enigma as the saying goes.

  933. john sanders on March 27, 2021 at 8:12 am said:

    Seems to be quite a few third and fourth generation unabased Mangnosons about, mainly in the Adelaide hinterlands and likely to be descendants of Ian & Pamela or Ian’s second marriage, many being quite socially active and well represented in local government, charity circles etc. Some of the family must be familiar with the 1949 trajedy re Keith’s lad Clive with possible connections to our man; so we might need to be on the look out for recent references in some of their on line writings.

  934. john sanders on March 28, 2021 at 12:25 am said:

    An Omnibus: Apropos Gordon’s latest post on the revealing graphics of TS slip’s saturations of micro magic overlays, there are also a number of apparent land feature charts for consideration. I’ve only been able to identify one thus far, it being a map of the far eastern tip of Rio Grande do Norte above Natal. CGC has thoughtfully labeled this one ‘an interesting image above’ but neglected to give actual details. The other four have insufficient cartographic features to identify wit
    apart from one with ‘Tamam Shud’ interposed, but I’m thinking these could be of the well documented Atomic test sites very close to Somerton. If you could you get your AE to give a little more detail as an aid to precise locations, no need for the distracting micro code drivel, that would likely suffice.

  935. Tammy Shud on April 2, 2021 at 12:05 pm said:

    I want to love GC. I really do. He can do some good work at times. But he has this habit of drawing the entirely wrong conclusions from it.

    Witness his latest high tide exploration. I’m willing to buy in and say: yes, this is sufficient evidence that Keane’s body had been lapped by the tide that evening.

    But instead of now shooting at the open goal his dribbling skills have presented,good old GC manages to trip over his own feet while taking an unnecessary leftward jink toward conspiracy territory involving the assumed third man and some Byzantine body-swap plot.

    Oh yes: the open goal? Nixing Pete Bowes’ missing matches ‘gotcha’. They bobbed away on the tide, old son.

  936. Tammy Shud on April 2, 2021 at 6:43 pm said:

    … and the other thing that floated away was probably the biggest spoiler of them all. A little bottle or wrapper that had contained the drug he used to end his pain.

    Who knows? – it might even have had his name on it, like prescriptions do. But of course, we know his name already. And we know the type of drug he used.

  937. john sanders on April 2, 2021 at 10:26 pm said:

    Don’t be disappointed Tammy. Jesus loves us all, even the shonks of this world. Tomorrow, Sunday He’ll be back to prove it…King James said so and he’d be one Pom you could count on to tell the truth if push comes to shove…Somerton Man was known but to God according to his funeral eulogy and I doubt that a chemist would put F KeanJr on a prescription label.

  938. john sanders on April 3, 2021 at 7:25 am said:

    SMUG, through it’s TS truth in reporting task force holds that it can no longer support certain claims relating to the so called ROK code page, namely regarding the first letter of line five vis. I T T M &c., which since 1949 has been continuously misidentified. We hold that as it shows no resemblance at all to an (I) or for that matter a (V) as held by a lesser authority. Of course this decree will not go down well with supporters of the so-called seven count four ‘A’ proposition which, by being reduced to three, may yet retain some of it’s long odd status nonetheless.

  939. Peteb on April 3, 2021 at 10:20 am said:

    Dang! I knew I missed something, thanks podnah.

  940. john sanders on April 4, 2021 at 3:57 am said:

    Peteb: This to renew your faith in lady luck and get a happy ending afterall. By simply counting back the four lines from right to left, you’ll reach the straight A letters with five moves as opposed to seven. Note the overhanging AB on line five being a pro-sign for ABort or nullify, is not therefore part of any count; as with the fourth line crossed 0 (zero not O) insert which would have conversely put a big dampener on the champers party…..So all’s well that ends well and we can leave Dang! to the Vietmanese.

  941. milongal on April 5, 2021 at 8:59 pm said:

    GC’s tides have come up before here, and invariably start an argument between several for us over whether “damp and cold” implies it had been washed by the sea, or whether a body swap (or equivalent) occured (some time between 4:30AM and 6AM – if we believe when the tide peaked).

    Of course, then we deviate into the question of whether the clothes had any salt marks (which are never mentioned if they were there). Dark coloured clothes that see salt water followed by sunshine (“It was unseasonably warm…” the next morning) tend to get white staining (for lack of a better word). Certainly the notion of a partial submerge let’s us speculate that missing evidence (be it bottles or vomit or footprints) washed away with the receding tide.

  942. john sanders on April 5, 2021 at 10:12 pm said:

    milongal: “….and it had been very warm” said Stuart on camera fron the substitute beach stairway in ’78, but lawyers can be careless abiut weather ” unseasonably warm…” (warmer than yesterday) is better though I’d be inclined to use the term ‘seasonbably average’ for the first say of summer…Point taken about likely salt residue bleaching, which is refreshibgly new but matters relating to time and tide must await expert opinion, likes of which can surely be gleaned through auspices of GC’s new accredited man John,

  943. john sanders on April 6, 2021 at 4:58 am said:

    Guess I’ve mentioned never having been impressed by GC’s Wittners 204B shoes having been hand made by a Bulgarian refo from Melbourne, nor am I a big fan of the lustre shine they bore as mentioned by the Coroner (?) some months after having been exposed to GC’s lately conceded big tidal serge and/or other dulling influence on the day. It’s seems quite within reason that the Somerton Man’s clothes, including his only pair of shoes had by that stage been seen to by the undertaker in readiness for his upcoming burial. Of course it’s not out of the question that the Coroner’s man Scan had borrowed the brown brogues for an outing, then dutifully shined them. Perhaps the later remark about the toe lustre was made tongue in cheek for fun…NB: Gordon made note that both the shoes and Stamina Crusaders were made in Melbourne. Perhaps the footware, though there’s no doubt that Stamina/Marco brand of NSW never farmed out their pants with the unique fob pockets. Both Feltus and the Victorian detectives of the day identified with Wilson Co. of Footscray for the up market Crusader herring bone weave Stamina duds. Leane mentioned the spare Marco pants being strangely of a different design as Marco elastostraps and Stamina exactofits are identical but for weft variation and the label.

  944. milongal on April 6, 2021 at 9:03 pm said:

    Sort of talked about salt staining and weather previously**, I think……it might be a small point, but I would expect to hear about it if it was there. Somewhere there is a site (I think it’s worldtimeanddate dot com) where I’ve previously found tide data – it peaked at 4:35 from memory – but from memory that would have been measure at Glenelg or Noarlunga. So we’ll see what the tide guy comes up with.

    As you might know, I’ve always had a problem with “it had been unseasonably warm”. 1/12 was a warm morning and day (as you point out, being the first of Summer you would argue it wasn’t “unseasonable”), but 30/11 was quite a mild day.
    There’s 2 things problematic about that
    1) People put a lot of weight on SM being overdressed for such a warm day – but he was dressed for the cooler 30th Nov, not 1st Dec.
    2) Gordon and Olive went to the beach “….because it had been warm”. That simply doesn’t ring true. I think in the whole month of November there had been 2 days around 30C (I’ll have to double check). I forget whether this was something introduced by Littlemore, or if their original statements said as much.

    **Previous rants re seasons and salt
    2019/10/05/jack-gordon-keane-of-broken-hill#comment-396225
    2020/11/17/the-glut-of-somerton-men#comment-414260
    2014/03/13/somerton-man-australian-radio-documentary-ruth-balint#comment-412743

    NB: In revisiting those, I seem to have asserted that Gordon’s comments about the temperature were from the 1959 inquest (I’ll double check that, because I thought his testimony in ’59 was copied from ’49 not re-testified)

  945. peteb on April 7, 2021 at 9:03 am said:

    The envelopes, the great big bloody envelopes! For what?
    Sir Hubert, arise once more, be our Moby Dick.

  946. Tamara Bunke on April 7, 2021 at 10:03 am said:

    Peter Bergmann, one of the closest modern analogues to Keane, likely sent a series of letters on the day prior to his death. In his case, he paid for worldwide postage stamps and was given airmail stickers with them. The letters were never traced.

    Did Keane simply buy the envelopes in order to send his final farewells, perhaps including items that would require a larger envelope? Things like documents, photographs, etc.

    Had Keane simply sent everything he was going to send? He just had a few envelopes left over?

  947. john sanders on April 7, 2021 at 10:41 am said:

    Peteb: Let me be your slick dick; just to remind you that the big bloody envelopes were likely used for posting the not so ruddy big 7d copies of 1941 issue W&C – C&F Rubaiyats to pals or rels on the west coast of the US for Xmas (says J.B.C.). Proof being that they came free for the very purpose, as advertsed and you know what?…the dimensions were spot on.

  948. Peteb on April 7, 2021 at 11:54 am said:

    So who addresses a letter in pencil? The bloke had SIX of them and no pen … This is all seriously out of order.

  949. Peteb: six H pencils, surely you know that?

  950. milongal on April 7, 2021 at 10:00 pm said:

    If you send your final farewells, how come noone came forward having received them? Further, why why are the rest of the envelopes in the suitcase – if you’re know you won’t need them, why not leave them where you wrote the letters or dump them?
    If we entertain the suicide theory for a second (which I think I’ve been clear in the past doesn’t make sense to me for a whole host of reasons) why bring a suitcase to Adelaide at all? Is it because he wants to be in his Sunday best but doesn’t want to wear it on the train (all the normal disclaimers about assuming he caught the train)? But why the other suitcase contents? Was it 5 ties? Had he not decided which tie he was going to wear? Why 6 handkerchiefs? Dressing gown? Why any of the stuff that isn’t clothes? You could argue this was all his worldly belongings (or something) – but then you have to look at what’s missing (e.g. the socks that always come up).
    (inserting normal caveats again – especially assuming the suitcase was his, and was left at the station by him) At the time he packed the suitcase he doesn’t seem to have been planning his final journey. And I think there’s even a question as to why he would check the luggage if he was hoping to disappear. Why not leave it on the train? On the platform? On the bus? ANYWHERE. It seems a wasted effort to check the suitcase (especially given his limited timeline) if he wasn’t planning to come back. Doesn’t it?

  951. john sanders on April 7, 2021 at 10:39 pm said:

    Could’ve done the addresses with stencil “Xmas Greetings from Somerton Beach from Unknown Man” he certainly had the kit for it and just the right size for it.

  952. Peteb on April 8, 2021 at 6:43 am said:

    One thing you can be reasonably sure of, Milongal, is that he had no home address, everything he owned was in his bag.

  953. Tamara Bunke on April 8, 2021 at 6:53 am said:

    @milongal take a look at the Bergmann M.O. You could ask very similar questions about his actions. And yet he was a suicide. He has never been identified (Bergmann is the false name he used). Letter recipients never came forward. His behaviour leading up to his death appears suspicious. His remaining belongings “made no sense”.

    With respect, the questions “why…?” that you ask with regard to details (ties, socks) are evidence of a kind of narrative thinking where everything has to have a reason and every reason would (if ascertainable) be significant. This is also the downfall of the likes of Pete Bowes and Gordon Cramer, who consider the “solution” to lie in the “gotcha” of a single fact (matches, trousers, little writing, etc.).

    Episode 3 of the recent BBC Radio 4 series on conspiracy theories (I think called ‘Conspiracies: Secret Knowledge’) explains this really well. I think it is accessible world wide.

    It is here in Vallegrande, anyway.

  954. Peteb: apart from the socks? :-p

    I’m not convinced that the suitcase had all his earthlies, but that’s perhaps a debate for another day.

  955. Peteb on April 8, 2021 at 7:41 am said:

    Today will do me. I’ve got less birthdays.

    A bloke who packs six ties doesn’t leave much behind.

  956. john sanders on April 8, 2021 at 8:44 am said:

    Nickpelling: With respect, another day to some of us weary sleuths might lie in the lap of the gods, similar to the chances of an end of journey lucky breakthrough. ….Considering that neither Peter Bergmann or the Isdal lass were known to be into ciphercoding as Somerton Man appears to have been, I think we should put them on hold to your suggested ‘another day’ subject for debate category. That might give our seniors a little time to get their papers in order, time perhaps for the old wacky theorists to have a final shot at the more elusive SM goal and Glory.

  957. Tamara Bunke on April 8, 2021 at 12:29 pm said:

    @Sanders The Isdal Woman left a cipher behind. It’s never been conclusively unbuttoned, although it looks like a simple list of location “codes”. And as others – recently including Pete – have correctly pointed out elsewhere, Keane’s association with a ciphertext is not established at all. The Rubaiyat may never have been in his possession.

  958. milongal on April 8, 2021 at 9:29 pm said:

    So Pete, everything he had was in a suitcase, yet he wasn’t hard up for it – he trivially changed travel plans from train to bus (or something) without seeking a refund on the train ticket (even if SAR weren’t prepared to refund the ticket, surely the clerk would remember someone arguing the point?). I guess maybe at this point he’s decided he ain’t gonna need the coin where he’s going – but if it’s all planned so meticulously, why does he have the spare coin to do it – and why bother changing transport? Is Somerton a better beach to die on than Henley?
    If we assume suicide, then we assume noone tampered with evidence (other than possibly someone flogging his wallet and hat or something). This means the Henley and the St Leonards tickets were bought by him. But why the change in travel plans if he’s just going to die? Because he wanted to meet someone first and he had their address wrong? Maybe, but doesn’t that seem a bit odd (which I’ll happily elaborate into a rant if you want and/or disagree that’s odd).

    As per my original (and Nick’s reiteration of same) – if that’s all he owns, how come he has multiple ties and zero socks…..surely you’d expect the opposite – someone to have multiple socks and few ties.

    Maybe his socks are still in the laundry….

    @Tamara – I take your point to some degree (and though I’ve heard it mentioned occasionally, I’m not overly familiar with Bergmann). Nonetheless, there’s a whole load of reasons I find the suicide a difficult pill to swallow – from carefully hiding the slip the was either meant to remind you or alert investigators that this is the end, to the peculiar nature of the poison disappearing (from memory the analysts concluded that if he had been poisoned it COULDN’T have been by mouth – which would surely be the most likely way to self-administer) – and where is whatever receptacle the poison came in?
    Granted, it’s difficult to imagine what a suicidal person is thinking and/or why they do the things they do – and granted after the fact we are prone to make assumptions based on ‘complete’ pictures we can see that may not have been obvious. And we suffer from confirmation bias with ‘most every theory we came up with etc….but there’s not much point looking into and speculating on stuff if we’re happy with “it is what it is”. The whole reason people get fascinated with SM and similar mysteries is because we want to make some sense of the why’s and how’s (and to that end, even if someone comes up with seemingly conclusive proof of who he was and how he died there will be people who will continue to deny and find holes in it).
    So (perhaps paradoxically) we either accept that “it is what is” and leave it there, or we speculate that “this is solvable” and start analysing from any and every direction – which basically presumes not just that the mystery on the whole is explicable, but that there is also an explanation for every minutia (and we tend to miss the idea that all of us have our quirks and probably do stuff which to an outsider analysing our activities might be baffling).
    So for the time being (to quote (or possibly paraphrase) Adam Savage’s shirt) “I reject your reality, and substitute my own”.

  959. john sanders on April 8, 2021 at 10:56 pm said:

    Peteb: Yep. Five ties, six snot rags, five pair of underdaks (one slightly soiled ?), gown & skippers. Make shift tool kit with knife, scissors, brush and dual purpose screwdriver. Shaving kit including cut-throat razor with strop, brush and dish for lathering….All a travelling man might need one might think; but not quite right, because apart from no extra sox which we might put down to other forces being involved, he didn’t have a can or crown seal bottle opener, a mirror for shaving or a magnifing glass for firing up on the track, nor a waterproof pouch or a poncho for inclement weather. Some of these items would be as indispensable as writing material one might expect but not so our feller.

  960. john sanders on April 8, 2021 at 10:59 pm said:

    @Bunke: Your putting us off our game, also playing divide and conquor which is only barely noticeable y’hear?

  961. peteb on April 9, 2021 at 2:33 am said:

    Tamara … Keane’s association with a ciphertext has been long established.

  962. john sanders on April 9, 2021 at 3:31 am said:

    For those caught off guard, self included; It does seem certain that we now have consensus/quorum on a confirmed surname in Keane and a fair assortment of initials/number ie. F T L I J & 7 for the invalidated Unknown Man. A digitalised two l two dimension face compupic made to order by a renowned ‘make up artist’, plus two almost true to life assimillies generated by photo touch up and a death mask plaster cast ommissioned by police in the day. Of course Mr. Keane’s trade and calling, being most likely involved in the second hand motor trade seems to be agreed on by the big names of the case, bar one whose abject rejection might be result of a manic obsessive disorder developed from overexposure to spy films.

  963. john sanders on April 9, 2021 at 1:37 pm said:

    @Tamara Bunke: Sincere apologies and congratulations are in order. By electing the clever ploy of comparing Peter Bergmann and the Isdal woman with our very own Somerton Man, you may just have made the case for plausable suicide, if you know what I mean? It never really dawned on me that the three were typecast personaties with visions of grandure that must end with such grim finality, if their ultimate aims were to be fulfilled. I once had a like experience with a perp who tried to have us believe he was part of an espionage sting operation in which he was key to it’s success. The guy spent 12 years complaining to authorities of his ligitimacy, about our interfering in clandestine operations and committing offences against GC’s non existant Australian Official Secrets Act. Give him credit, he never gave us a clue as to who he was or where he came from. Reason most likely being that he was living the same lie as Messrs. Keane, Bergmann, the Isdal wonan and a host of others with similar traits…There but for the Grace might well go we right?…

  964. Tamara Bunke on April 9, 2021 at 8:35 pm said:

    @Sanders … not sure what you’re trying to say, old chap. Try again for us foreigners, would you?

  965. john sanders on April 9, 2021 at 10:52 pm said:

    @ Bunk … Solving crimes like the Somerton Beach mystery depend to a great degree on trying to understand and overcone evidentiary quirks that don’t fit any of the usual patterns ie., where human nature such as predictability, motivation and passion form part of a solution. I’m thinking that SM and others of his typeset concentrated on pol8ce frailties and planned their departures well ahead thereaby confounding investigators through laying false trails just as a Go player might. SM may just have been the best in the business, but technological advances may yet prove his downfall.

  966. john sanders on April 10, 2021 at 6:42 am said:

    Following results of testing of three bust hairs, Nick Pelling came to the conclusion that the original owner had become used to a diet of canned fish in the weeks before death. Whilst conceeding that the hairs could be from a mortuary occupant including our unknown man, other more likely sources came to mind eg., the ferral West Terrace cats, no doubt well used to canned sardine scraps, as an alternative to suspicious tidbits lying about the mortuary. So let’s suppose it had been a lone traveller like SM afterall, an itinerant who survived, even thrived for extended periods on Safcol canned Australian salmon at a few pence a tin, much cheaper than bon ton chop shop fare in 1948 Adelaide. Only problem being is that steel cans of that era were not self opening and I can’t recall there being either a ration pack P38 opener, a handy little army folding KFS utensil set, nor a two in one S&P shaker, the odd tea bag or even a billy for water, all standard travel kit for on the wallaby loners of the immediate post war era. One thing our man did have which was of absolutely no use to him was a fancy little Greens pocket lighter that he had in his Keane suitcase, minus fluid or flints.

  967. John Sanders: I have not the faintest idea what fishy conspiracy theory you’re on about here, so I’m pretty sure it’s not one of mine. :-/

  968. john sanders on April 10, 2021 at 8:34 am said:

    Nick Pelling: How soon we forget the things that we’d like to. Do you not recall some time back, putting a question to our resident scientific expert of that time, words to the effect of, “in South Australia circa 1948 what kinds of non fresh seafood might have been available, presumably cans?”. The question arose as a consequence of results on tests of hair taken from a plaster cast by Derek Abbott’s students. It was considered most likely that SM had eaten fish containing high levels of certain metals (stronium?) in the period prior to is death, hence your ‘Lead in the Somerton Man’s Hair’ thread….which I just happened to be talking about in my last post, interfused with a bit of missing kit to spark up a dull subject.

  969. John Sanders: good catch, I’d completely forgotten the whole strontium thing.

  970. john sanders on April 10, 2021 at 1:09 pm said:

    Nick: Not a problem. We all have our moments and it is a fact that you have more to dwell on than moi. You’re still doing a Stirling job of work in my estimation..

  971. john sanders on April 11, 2021 at 10:58 am said:

    Peteb: Good to see you’ve given old Alfred a pass though not before time. You’ll recall it was poor Alfred who copped the blame for burning the scones and he’s been the prime suspect for every wrongdoing ever since. That was around a thousand years before the Voynich Manuscript and an hundred or so before Canterbury Tales.

  972. milongal on April 11, 2021 at 8:28 pm said:

    Where are the cats getting sardines from on West Terrace?
    From the Elephant and Castle?
    Perhaps they wandered up Grote St to the Central Markets where The Cappo and Angelakis brothers fight for control of SA’s seafood (I’m sure there was at least one more fisher family there too).

    NB: A quick google suggests Angelakis wasn’t around ’til the 1960’s – and while Cappo seafood existed, not sure whether it would have been at the Central market

  973. milongal on April 11, 2021 at 9:26 pm said:

    Cappos 1948 were in Port Pirie (I’d associate fishing with Port Lincoln rather than Pirie – but could be that mussels or some other seafood attracted them to Pirie….) and in Grote St with premises related to “Cappo” at 16, 28 & 128. I remember them having a shop opposite the markets near #28 in the 80/90s (I thought it was a couple of shops further West), before they moved to their current premises within the Adelaide Central Market.

    (Although I think I’ve digressed to stuff that’s totally unrelated) Interestingly Pirie at the moment has a seafood contamination problem (google: Port Pirie Fishing and look for the SAHealth advice) which begins:
    “Sediments in the Port Pirie River estuary and parts of Germein Bay near Port Pirie are contaminated with lead and other metals after more than 100 years of smelter operation. There is no safe level of lead exposure. Lead can be harmful to your health, particularly for young children and pregnant women. Eating seafood caught in the Port Pirie River estuary and nearby waters may be a source of lead exposure, which together with other sources of lead exposure around Port Pirie, will contribute to elevated blood lead levels. There are precautions you can take to prevent this source of lead exposure.”

    NB: Sadly through overfishing and prawn-trawling and other things I think a lot of SA seafood stocks have dried up – I know in recent history (last lustrum to decade) the Torrens Island Markets went from having several regular fishing boats on a Sunday dropped to 2 and possibly then none at all – But that’s in the Gulf of St Vincent rather than Spencer Gulf.

  974. milongal on April 11, 2021 at 9:37 pm said:

    NB (aka SPAM3): I notice with some amusement they refer to Trumpeter’s nickname “shitties” (this is what we used to call them, and I assume it’s because they are considered by many to be “shit” – they have a lot of bone to pick through).

    Thay also refer to Australian Herring (formerly Tommy Ruff – as they point out) and Australian Salmon – which I think is actually the white-flesh “Salmon Trout” (I know it’s strange that that’s a combination of the names of 2 orange flesh fish) rather than actual Salmon (it’s very similar looking to Tommy Ruff but has yellow spots on the outside and the fins are more yellow).

    All of that said, most of the above comes from being an “expert” fisherman in my teens – not actual fisheries knowledge, and it’s possible my older siblings (who were even more “expert” than me didn’t know what they were talking about). In any event from the metro jetties (usually Semaphore, occasionally Henley or Grange) we would usually bring back Tommy Ruff and Salmon Trout (and occasionally squid and sand crabs) – but there were some occasions when a large number of shitties seemed to be around as well. So they’re 3 fish I’m pretty familiar with (very occasionally we would also catch a Flathead, Whiting or (when we used floats) Garfish).

  975. john sanders on April 11, 2021 at 10:42 pm said:

    milongal: Perhaps I overstepped the mark when half jokingly suggesting feline hairs in SM’s bust. The idea came to being as an alternative to general acceptance that the three or four protruding hairs came from the deceased and not from some alternative source such as dogs, cats or horses or other clients of the West Terrace mortuary. Actually my bringing on the subject derived from an old thread suggesting that our man’s diet in the weeks before 1/12/48 might well have been made up of canned fish in above average proportions which I found intriguing at the time.

  976. john sanders on April 12, 2021 at 8:55 am said:

    ….Operative word being ‘canned’ as in fish and linked to raised levels of lead or strontium in a couple of the back hairs plucked from the plaster cast of a man described by pathologist Dwyer as being not so hairy. Anyhow back in 1948 your average Aussie navvy, such as urban shovel men or in our case grave diggers typically lunched on easy to carry, easy to eat and easy to serve King Oscar style sardines from Norway. As a matter of interest I remember from my youth, a great time honoured method of feline erradication without to much fuss or danger to endangered species, but agonisingly painful to the erradicatee, involved cheap cans of fish, a piece or two of split lead shot a little patience and ear plugs. I can recall that council park rangers used it to get rid of magpies, snakes biting pests and other beasties such as ferrral cats, swaggies and camping gypsies from about late spring. And wasn’t it suggested that Somerton man could have purchased his 7d bus ticket as far west from town as Anzac Highway turn off, along West Terrace near the old cemetery…. Just a thought, nothing to get excited about Peteb et al.

  977. milongal on April 12, 2021 at 8:39 pm said:

    Re the 7d ticket you’re right.
    Adelaide’s current system (which by the sound is not *quite* the same) is sectioned**. I think they claim each section is on average 1.3km but in any event it’s a small handful of stops on most routes. For most commuters the sections mean nothing – because they travel on a 2hr “3-zone” (they no longer have zones, but for historical reasons the tickets used to have a Z3 on them – and last time I was down Port Adelaide way there was still at least 1 sign I saw indicating a zone change. These days they probably refer to it as a “singletrip” or “transfer” ticket). Anywho, the whole of the CBD (bus stops labelled letter-number rather than just number or number-letter) is “Section 1”. My (admittedly limited) understanding of SM’s time is that travelling from Section 1 was a more expensive fare, and that the price changed once you left the city. The current section change is stop J1 – near the corner of West Tce and Gilbert St – out the front of the Elephant and Castle (whose publican was a pallbearer, from memory).

    Deviating WAY off course as per normal, some cross town routes are a bit confusing with Sections – the Port Adelaide to Tea Tree Plaza services (360 & 361) used to go from Section 10 to Section 16 but overlapped several other routes in different directions (237 would have been Westbound on parts of Grand Junction Rd (from Valley View) but eventually heading up Churchill Rd to the city, while 25x buses (originally 253,255 later 252, 254 as well) would have been Eastbound from Port Adelaide toward Hanson Road and on to the city – so some of the signs were misleading about what section the bus was in – because it usually showed the section for the city services (the numbering of the stops on Grand Junction Rd was weird too – from memory at least one stop number was repeated 3 times) – although at one stage multiple sections might have been shown on a sign.

    In any event, my understanding is that boarding a bus in the city cost 7d, boarding a bus in the suburbs cost 6d. And by the sound of it at least at the change of price the conductor would make a note on what ticket sequence they were up to (although I suppose there’s no reason this couldn’t wait until they reached the terminus).

    **Since writing this, I looked up some timetables and it looks like sections no longer exist on AdelaideMetro…..I’m guessing that’s happened in the last lustrum.

    I was going to point you to a timetable for the 263 (current Anzac highway route), but as I said I’ve now noticed sections no longer exist – however if you’ve nothing better to do, get on google maps and look up Gilbert St, then using streetview wander back along West Tce past the bus stop and turn around. The post for the bus stop has a yellow sign, with a blue bit on top. In the blue bit there are two triangles with “section” in between them. The top one points upward and has a ‘2’ in it – indicating you’re entering Section 2, and the bottom one is ‘1’ and indicates downward (leaving Section 1).

  978. john sanders on April 12, 2021 at 10:58 pm said:

    milongal: Picked up the bus stop near Glibert St. next to E & C pub opposite the West Terrace cemetery entrance. The next stop north between Alfred & Gouger is quite obviously a city section fare (7d). It brings to mind this is where Maisie, Tom Handel Nelson and the billy lids would have caught the bus to and from their unit which was right about there. Amazing!

  979. milongal on April 14, 2021 at 8:56 pm said:

    From memory there was a Kean that lived further up West Tce (maybe near Currie St). have to double check, but have Margaret in my mind….

  980. john sanders on April 15, 2021 at 9:25 am said:

    On Saint Nick’s day 6/12/18 the seventy year SM post, I dropped my bombshell on the mysterious disappearance in ’47 or ’48 of a pair of German friends who had landed by ship from London in ’39 from to entertain Tivoli goers with their gay trapeze act. Due to outbreak of war soon after, they spent six years travelling about from state to state with Wirth Circus and were last officially located at Albert Park, Melbourne where their citizenship applications were approved. I went to the expence of pulling their respective files from NAA (Arno Kohler & Felix Slawinski) and it is quite evident, even from the limited contents that they were scammed, likely murdered by Melbourne market mafia and their identities converted to obtaining Australian Passports and the like for big bickies.

    I’d almost forgotten that at some stage during my interest in this intriguing case (it leaves SM in the shade imo), I had obtained the given address of Adelaide port arrivals from Germany in 1954 of two passengers of the identical names above mentioned, the former being accompanied by a wife and child. 39 (A) Devon St. Goodwood, next to the Glenelg tram line dep. terminus to be precise. Because any links to our SM case were, by then considered tenuous at best, I put the file away for at best a rainy day. Today along with the first downpour of the wet season, using my newfound skills with the SA S&Mc. search facility, I inexpertly sought to checked out said address ranging from 1946 through 1957. I thus received the news I expected, no trace of our shipboard buddies, the connected names of tennants being long term and decidedly Australian in flavour.

    Some years back, I put all the details on both Arno and Felix through all indices I could think of and so did manage to track the impersonators through voting enrollment records around Sydney for Arno and Melbourne for Felix. One was buried in Rookwood as a Lutheran (not Jewish) in 1986? and t’other at Altona in 1979, having died of a cerebral haemorage in an assylum at 63 years (Felix was born in 1903 so should have been 76). Neither seem to have had families at the time of their passing so who knows what happened to Arno’s wife ‘E’ and child aged two in ’54. As I said, a very intriguing set of affairs which undoubtedly points to all sorts of duplicity going on in the post war years and who knows how many were murdered to enable others to re settle with stolen identities and where are the bones. Perhaps Somerton Man himself was a victim of the black hand villains.

  981. john sanders on April 15, 2021 at 11:27 am said:

    …All the handwriting experts out there, Misca/nada being one that comes to mind from her Thomas Leonard Keane signature comparisons, then feast your eyes on the contrast between Arno Kohler’s (sic) copperplate job of 1939 and the Italian style imposter of 1947. Similar but d8fferent deal with Felix though, his own fancy 1939 signature apparently not even attempted in 1945, his citizenship certificate having being signed by some bimbo named Teresa Caldera bn. 1909 Italy. I was able to trace her from arrival by ship in the mid thirties, nominating an Innisfail black hand relative’s farm for place of intended residence, though in 1946 she was in Sydney then Melbourne and gone. I might have picked her up years later at rest though not at all sure.

  982. john sanders on April 15, 2021 at 10:19 pm said:

    Teresa Cordera gets three mentions in Australian Security/Intelligence records along with her relatives from Nth Qld. who were interned at Loveday POW during the war and it may have been a twin sister Michele who died in custody from illness in 1943. Some records have her buried in Murchison Victoria and some at Centenial Park. This same family, or parts of it settled in Adelaide post war and at least two are listed amongst the Centenial interments, so it might be of intetest to ascertain where abouts they were domociled and their occupations.

  983. milongal on April 15, 2021 at 10:20 pm said:

    Very minor/pedantic (if nothing else to prove I was listening) re ” next to the Glenelg tram line dep. terminus ” – I don’t think that’s right – I assume you mean “next to the Goodwood flyover”. Goodwood is halfway up the line, and isn’t a terminus (it was until the late 19th/early 20th century, and *might* have had a terminating line there a little later, but not sure it would’ve still been there in ’54.

    Also what does the “dep” mean? I was originally going to say the depot isn’t (and AFAIK never has been) at Goodwood (It was a Tram Barn in Angas St until the mid ’80s at which point it was moved to a new location behind Morphetville Racecourse on Morphett Rd).

  984. john sanders on April 16, 2021 at 6:57 am said:

    Teresa Cordera was single when she was granted citizenship in ’47, whilst some other Corderas from the same region of Italy in 1954 got theirs in ’57 and ’59, the family settling in Adelaide around Prospect and Enfield Hts. I think Teresa of the blackhander extortion mob must have returned home to get in on the increasing demand for Australian entry docs. amongst her fellows.

  985. john sanders on April 16, 2021 at 7:46 am said:

    milongal: Since the 1800s there has been some form of important direct tramline connection between Goodwood and Glenelg but exactly what transpired after the tram/rail gauge change and separation in ’27 who knows. What can be said is that the Goodwood terminus, interchange, call it as you will, has always been a key line crossing and link up for any number of suburban services including Glenelg; still is if one cares to check the available on line grid layouts. PS dep stands for depot in my jargon and a bit lax on my part I’ll own.

  986. john sanders on April 16, 2021 at 12:47 pm said:

    Peteb: Nice to see you picked up on my ode to HRH Sir Phil the Duke, no body else did. You’re plagiarisation is not word perfect of course but neither is the original RLS gravestone epitaph in Samoa. Well spotted, though of course Alf Boxal was not a man into hunting so far as we’re aware so more power to you. Could have ended it with “Home is the soldier, home from active service” but that don’t fit the bill right?

  987. Peteb on April 17, 2021 at 7:15 am said:

    Some days everything falls into place.

  988. john sanders on April 17, 2021 at 9:08 am said:

    A worthwhile mission for anybody keen on digging up a bit of old dirt under the cover of historical research might like a trip in the old KIA to Brisbane where former ASIO vice chair, Robert Wake’s diaries, operational and personal papers including those connected with his secret ‘O Group’ at the Parafield air show in November ’48, lie in wait. They can be accessed at University of Queensland library Fryer collection reading room, by appointment and I’m betting there are many more golden nuggets to be found amongst the big fella’s ‘The Case’ papers of ’49 than there ever was to be found in a dead man’s suitcase found abandoned in Adelaide Station restroom? about that time. I’ve always intended to do the research myself but unfortunately intervening events will not make it possible any time in the foreseable future, I therefore reluctantly cede all rightful claims on the said Wake/Augenson treasure trove forthwith..

  989. john sanders on April 17, 2021 at 11:01 am said:

    Peteb: And so it should, though the same can’t be said for our SM Leader. Feller has more brave, clean living Kean suspects et al, sadly dieing on his watch then is fair to be sure. Must’ve trod on a leprechaun’s big toe at some time in his crooked past.

  990. john sanders on April 17, 2021 at 2:37 pm said:

    Lets try to fathom this little doosey. Harold North, senior porter, attested that the unknown suitcase owner deposited same with cloakroom attendant R. (no first name) Craig between 11am and midday, after presumably bathing at a nearby hotel or the city baths. Mr. West could not attend at the inquest due to annual leave taking priority over the Coroners subpoena to witness. Unfortunately Harry, who was 65 and had been employed by SA Rail since who knows when had no idea of times for two key arrivals in the Broken Hill express or the Overlander from Melbourne. He could not have been unaware of ablution facilities including hot showers and shaving basins being the norm on board such blue riband trains in that era, negating any need to alternate facilities on arrival. To those who are not in the picture now will never accept that the whole cloakroom deal was a sham I’m deeply sorry. I hope to convince others that the ruse was to overcome problems with arrival times and to satisfy the bogus suitcase drop off along with ability to catch the 11.15 bus to St. Leonards on time and cover a few other bits in need of substantiating fir effect. Proof of old Harry’s contrivance, possibly under duress with who ever mastered the scheme will never be known. Our head porter Harry North conveniently died in ’49 soon after he testified, though I’m not able to say specifically what date for that detail is strangely not available through my sources. Could it be that one of the regularly nominated hit squads took him out; GRU, MI6, OSS, ASIO or even MMM (Mebourne Market Mafia); Go ahead and make my day.

  991. john sanders on April 18, 2021 at 3:53 am said:

    Forget my Mr. West, he had naught to do with Adelaide cloakroom and Harold North’s related deposition at the inquest in June ’49. In fact if the named attendant R. Craig turns out to be Ralph (Feltus), there are no military or S.A. geni records for him. I do recall a chap with that name attending some SAR course at Port Augusta around 1929 but Trove is not what it used to be. By the way, it seems that Harry North’s pergured testimony may have caught up with him earlier than expected for he succumbed on 14th July ’49.

  992. john sanders on April 18, 2021 at 7:27 am said:

    A bit of previous research brought to light a true story of the body of an infant being found in a suitcase left at the railway station cloakroom one month prior to it’s gruesome discovery. The Adelaide Advertiser story of November ’47 follows that, in line with Victoria State railway cloakroom regulations, a deposited item, not having been collected within one month of it’s ticketed stowage date, must then be delivered to the nearest railway lost property office for contents checking and subsequent disposal accordingly. I might point out that the incident in question was not at Adelaide station but in Melbourne the next main one over the border but you can be almost sure that cloakroom storage time policy would be similar.

    In the matter of our so called Somerton Man suitcase, it apparently remained untouched for six weeks, a bit of a delay according to the rules, though with due credit when Harry North realised a similar situation may be at hand as with the dead baby, he summoned a duly appointed railway doctor to conduct the initial inspection and overseen apparently by a constable. Then we can get back on track with events from handover of the suitcase to Det. Leane on 14th January and the rest is simply ancient and mostly contentious history. PS I don’t believe for a minute witness North’s explanation of the ticket time punch clock not being set to record the exact time.

  993. milongal on April 18, 2021 at 8:39 pm said:

    @JS: Craig – any ancestor to Neil Craig who played for Norwood, Sturt and North Adelaide through the 70s and 80s (and captained SA’s state of origin side at one stage, I think) and later coached Adelaide Crows (and very briefly Melbourne)?

    Regarding the suitcase (playing Devil’s Advocate as ever), that’s always been a nagging thing in my mind – at what point do items in a cloakroom become lost property? Gotta say, though, even when policy is “every month” that lazy implementation could easily see that slip to longer – especially if they check on a particular day of the month for “all items that have been there longer than a month”. Suppose they check on the 15th of the month then on 15th December that suitcase has been there less than a month, and it won’t be until 15th January that it will be identified as lost property. In fact, what if it was the Railway peeps and not Leane that flagged the suitcase?
    Also, we don’t actually know that the suitcase wasn’t already considered lost property by that point – do we?

    BTW: I chose the 15th because it was halfway through the month – not because the discovery was on the 14th (which I didn’t realise at the time). Transport – especially rail – is highly time managed (even regimented) and they would likely plan to spread different activities throughout the month – so the the first and/or last are not much busier days than the others (people in IT might recognise similar efforts to not schedule regular tasks all at the same time – so in a busy cron you’ll see scripts scheduled for seemingly random intervals). So while I’m not going to assert “This is how it was…” in terms of identifying lost property, a policy of “monthly” could quite easily be implemented in a way where it was possible for as many as 58-61 days (almost 9 weeks) to pass before property is deemed lost.

  994. john sanders on April 18, 2021 at 10:23 pm said:

    @milongal: Reg Craig the cricketer who captained Sth Australia before and after he stepped up to the crease for war service, was a handy right handed batsman and a right leg break googly bowler of some note. T’was born Adelaide in 1916 and after puting his bat and ball away settled at Walkers Flat. Don’t know if he was related to Neil Craig of Norwood et al but he does not appear to have had any close links to Ralph Craig of no fixed abode, the ace SAR Cloakroom man who was conveniently absent for court attendance in June ’49 ‘and we don’t know where he are’.

  995. milongal on April 23, 2021 at 11:13 pm said:

    Apparently Saturday Advertiser reports SM to be exhumed (I’ve not read the article, just heard from elsewhere)….checking if it’s behind a paywall (normally that sort of thing would be, I think)

  996. milongal on April 23, 2021 at 11:15 pm said:

    Google returns a headline, but it’s subscriber only (might see if I can find a paper here here)

  997. john sanders on May 10, 2021 at 11:43 am said:

    Seems a few of the Tibor Kaldor punters are having another crack of the whip, trying to building his case to accommodate perceived links to SM, tha it will cause friction in various camps as to ownership is understandable. Far as I can see he was Clive’s baby at the start and even now that he has changed allegences, that should not deprive him from the intellectual rights attached to original discovery. I was just musing on the co-incidental aspect of T.K.’s suitcase(s) going missing with the discovery of his body (Errol Canney and Hec Gollan(?) on 14/1/49 and the long delayed discovery of the Keane suitcase on that very same day date.

  998. john sanders on May 10, 2021 at 11:49 am said:

    No, my blunder with the dates for Tibor’s day of passing was a full month before on 14/12/48…but still that doesn’t change the scenario too much.

  999. peteb on May 11, 2021 at 6:00 am said:

    Clive put up the theory that the evening body wasn’t the same as the morning body waaaayyy before the striped duds came off. The man holds legendary status.

  1000. john sanders on May 11, 2021 at 7:23 am said:

    Be assured Clive, I think no ill of a man prepared to accept his own limitations. As for legendary status; well that be a long row to how. I’ll think it over and get back.

  1001. Peteb on May 11, 2021 at 9:19 am said:

    Speaking of limitations, given the massive and not quite secret escarpment of secret Anglo Aust industries in Salisbury SA concerned with the manufacture in the simplest sense of guided missiles and happily employing men and and women of all nations to assist, all of them free of vetting of any kind (what was the real reason for so many MI5 visits in 1948 I wonder) and be able to remain free of the notion that contrary parties might be interested in aforesaid proceedings to the detriment of those whose future they hoped to insure, cue our esteemed Anglo host, I remain in a sort of transcendental wonder. It must be the drugs.

  1002. john sanders on May 11, 2021 at 10:43 am said:

    Couple of our best people who came up empty handed spent their war years at Salisbury when it was merely making ordinance, they being Harry Strangway in SB and Bob Cowan in the explosives inspectorate. I know nothing at all about visits to WRE Salisbury by Pommie Secret Service types in ’48 specifically, but I guess they had as much need to see the goods on offer as did our wartime allies, the Ruskies, Jews and curious Kiwis.

  1003. misca on May 14, 2021 at 3:11 am said:

    “There are at least two people related to this case who had clear connections to Christchurch New Zealand. Bartlett Adamson and Walter Seddon Clayton. Adamson actually worked for Whitcombe and Tombs Ltd. there for a time and was very well versed in the printing industry. He frequented Pakie’s. He knew Clayton. He also knew Ada Frances Scott. They travelled in the same circles and sometimes wrote for the same publications. Bartlett quoted the Rubaiyat in one of his published articles.”

    “Adamson and Scott might well be players of consequence. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Jessica was part of the EYL and both of these characters were also a part of that movement at the right time and place as she. My hunch is that she most likely knew both and their connection to Whitcombe and Tombs and Clayton are not insignificant.”

  1004. john sanders on May 19, 2021 at 4:34 am said:

    Peteb: Your not so well researched very latest post war Operation Matchbox respons on the Rocketry thread could prove to be une distraction for some serious sleuthes who rely on your vast well of knowledge for all their reliable case history information. Next time you might like to try something new, even out of left field like Operation Paper Clip or similar.

  1005. john sanders on May 19, 2021 at 5:57 am said:

    It really does vex one to have to continually expose deliberate falsehoods that emminate from C. Gordon Cramer’s website, supported perhaps by a few fawning anonymous supporters. The latest short misadventure relates to Hellmut Hendon, a German Jew who landed Adelaide in 1937 on the SS Otranto, behaved himself from what we know, served in the AIF from ’43 to war’s ending, and from then on ran a jewellery business plus dabbling in ABC’s migrant radio. We can forget about the Marshall/Graham business, that’s known to be a fair account covered at length by more forthright and reputable bloggers. TS/BS’ new accounts suggesting that subject Hendon may have been a WW2 internee is flatout nonsense, and further that he was in hospital (somehow suspicious) when Augusta MacDougall was run down in Sydney 6/5/45, is not supported by any known documentation. On the contrary as records clearly show, Hellmut was in fact AWL from late evening roll call on 6/5/45 until morning muster on 7/5/45 if that means anything….Don’t tell fibs and don’t read other folks mail is my best advice Gordon. It don’t pay at the end of the day, yhear?…

  1006. john sanders on May 19, 2021 at 1:37 pm said:

    Tasmanian poet Bartlett Adamson, was a simple soul who still saw some good in mankind following upheavals brought upon it by the great war and the sorry aftermath. Adamson was a truly great Australian who’s misguided phillosophy of seeing some residual decency in the human race, was probably his own Waterloo, briught on by purceived untruthes to satisfy the whims of a new wave of soviet inspired socialistic aimed at total universal dominance. He was a decent man who died as he would have wished, standing on a pedestal in Sydney’s domain, puting forward his wholly reaonable ideas for a better world. Not as acclaimed nor as talented as his mentor Henry Lawon, antipodean equal of Canada’s renowned bard Robert William Service, yet of a similar class and full of confidence for a better world nonetheless. I can’t imagine that he would have had any respect for the likes of a crank like Wally Clayton or even Ada Scott of whom he is said to have been on good terms. A column published in Sydney’s Herald Saturday Magazine on March 3rd 1951 is well recommended. It might give folks some understanding of Bartlett’s romanticised views of everday life in a once great city of beauty, sadly now devoid of such charms. The lengthy item mainly concerns his familiarity with Sydney ferry journeys from the early days of settlement, and should any SM orientated reader continue through it’s dialogue there’s a nice little surprise in store towards the end. Indeed, indeed.

  1007. misca on May 19, 2021 at 2:26 pm said:

    I have already posted about the reference to the Rubaiyat. Many years ago.

  1008. john sanders on May 19, 2021 at 10:19 pm said:

    misca: Must have missed it, before my time no doubt. Well spotted anyhow and bully for you.

  1009. milongal on May 19, 2021 at 11:37 pm said:

    @JS: protip: Stop reading sites full of nonsense rather than worrying about the deliberate falsehoods they may promote.

    In other news, Drivers Licence for one Paul Ivanson Fedorson found in pockets of exhumed body at West Tce 8) /tic

  1010. milongal on May 20, 2021 at 12:00 am said:

    I should take my own advice.
    I chuckle with the disclaimer about “Sure there’s references to Fedosimov after 1948, but that’s just the same name”.
    I’ll point out:
    1) He is mentioned not just in IAEA attendances, but also working in Embassies (from memory in the UK, Libya and somewhere else) after 1948
    2) The Fedosimov at the IAEA (not to be confused with the Fedosimov who also worked in a diplomatic role in the US in Venona times) had a wife with the same name of the Fedosimov he’s not to be confused with
    3) Rewind to the earliest days of Fedosimov – when we were selling the same story, except we thought the other guy in the photo (Novikov) was Fedosimov and “when you remove the glasses a good match”.
    4) There is no evidence of Fedosimov ever coming to Australia – so we dismiss diplomatic postings after 1948 as “not him” and we dismiss IAEA attendance as “definitely not him”, but despite an absence of any evidence he’d ever even heard of Adelaide decide “IT’S HIM!!”.
    The idea that “PIF” is common enough that there’s 2 of them in equivalent roles, but rare enough that there’s only 2 of them – especially when we take into account their wives had the same name (admittedly the marginally more common Vera Sergeyevna) is absolute nonsense. No matter how much we might want to clutch at straws the idea that SM is PIF (not to be confused with Piff the Magic Dragon (Steve’s brother)) requires drawing such a long bow that I can’t think of a good way to finish that analogy…..

    Maybe that will be the best thing to come of this exhumation. That we can finally categorically dismiss the notion that Pavel Ivanovic Fedosimov was SM (although I’m sure the claim he was somehow related to the case will continue to be propagated).

  1011. misca on May 20, 2021 at 3:02 am said:

    No. Not before your time. My original post was in August 2017 and you responded. You did the exact same thing you did this time. You diverted away from it.

  1012. john sanders on May 20, 2021 at 7:11 am said:

    misca: Sorry, all I can find on Adamson from your posts are a couple I found while back checking on matters more relevant to the Somerton Man case which I rather enjoy taking an active role. Yours were a couple of days apart in 2014 relating to Ada Bernies letter to Catholic Weekly on 26/4/45 in which she briefly referred to Adamson being a poet CPA member and a some time guest speaker at Pakies Club. I guess by then I already knew of Bartlett’s talks on Bertha Lawson’s special events night in memory of her Dad Henry of who’s own works, he was a most loyal devotee (as I am) and I doubt that he would have been into Bohemian lifestyle like most regulars. As for your mention of his association with the Rubaiyat, I found not a trace apart from your interesting mention just a day or two ago, which is why I was inclined to follow up on and cheerfully report results thereof. I certainly wasn’t trying to plagiarise anyone’s work and if that was the insuation than I’m sorry for your apparent sense of insecurity. Strange as it may seem I enjoy being a team player just so long as my efforts are appreciated, and now that you’re back I’ll need to check my style which you seem to find so objectionable.

  1013. john sanders on May 20, 2021 at 7:32 am said:

    milongal: Yeah you’re absolutely right. Can’t help going into offensive mode when I spot pretenders lurking around and up to no good, then high tailing it back to base for mustering another raid. Sadly I’m inclined to give them a serve or two before they depart and that’s when I’m not always at my very best…. Aw shucks!

  1014. milongal on May 20, 2021 at 10:24 pm said:

    I’ve recently been questioning a lot more than just the SM related claims (down to the author’s own background). If I cared more I’d actually check a few things out…,.

  1015. john sanders on May 21, 2021 at 3:19 am said:

    milongal: I’m going to throw up….”All credit where credit’s due Petey….”Good on you Gordon”….Feud’s over, hail fellows well met once more. Hopefully the brothers grim will get their motley crew together, board the good ship Hazbeanus and set sail on the same fateful course Laparuse took after being evicted from Port Jackson by the Poms in 1788….As for our our ‘Unknown’ author all I can come up with is “Lovely cuppa Leslie? Funny you were never mentioned in Alf Boxall’s NAA folio. Tora…Tora…Tora…

  1016. Peteb on May 21, 2021 at 8:03 am said:

    The bloke who reckons you’re a mug Dusty is no fool.

  1017. john sanders on May 21, 2021 at 10:35 am said:

    You been far too moderate with the sledging lately Petey; nobody was fooled by the fake barney with your boss. It’ll be refreshing to have our old antagonist back, that is after you and misca get done with the job you started re Harkness/Moulds nuptuals in GB circa. ’43.

  1018. john sanders on May 21, 2021 at 1:50 pm said:

    Any mug who reckons you’re a fool Peteb is certainly not alone.

  1019. john sanders on May 22, 2021 at 5:45 am said:

    milongal: I had similar thoughts a while back and did some digging, then gave the game away upon finding the Streaky Bay mob has a cast of thousands dating back to the 1860s and with no on line tree branch to pursue. Those that I researched on NAA were C of E denomination when I was expecting majority Catholic. I recall that our man mentioned having attended Sacred Heart Glenelg for one term as a kid but of course Church schools were mostly multi denominational by the 50s as I do recall. Speaking of NAA and on a semi personal level, Do you have access to their Canberra reading room by any chance. There’s a job of work to be done on an open but unread file of a major SM player and whatsmore, it’s right down your curious alley.

  1020. john sanders on May 22, 2021 at 9:19 am said:

    All too easy for a trained and gazetted investigator Peteb. What we’re really looking at is not so much Alf’s dual language ROK with a pudgy open hand afoot, but in fact a Sydney finger web spider with a fez head between his spread legs ..NB Only dumb aged antipodes are likely to get the guist of this little gem.

  1021. Thequizmaster on May 22, 2021 at 9:33 am said:

    Two words, or maybe just one. There are prizes.

  1022. milongal on May 23, 2021 at 9:04 pm said:

    @JS – Will find out. Last I heard (early days of COVID) the NAA reading room was actually at Old Parliament House (or MoAD) and you had to book exactly what you wanted to read so they could ship it up there. Pretty sure other than that it’s public access.

  1023. milongal on May 23, 2021 at 9:23 pm said:

    NB: When I said “author” earlier I meant blogger, not author…..I’ve long thought the amount of confirmation bias was curious for an ex-copper, and I started to wonder whether “ex Detective” is not the same as “ex Police (Detective)”, and noting also that there’s no actual claim to having been a Defective in the Police Farce – so I wonder how much we are being misled not through a deliberate lie, but through not correcting a mistake that gets propagated on news sites.

    In terms of Sacred Heart, it is (or was) a boarding school – and that often means denomination goes out the window – because people who need a boarding school are limited in choice. I suspect SH, Rostrevor and Immanuel (also down Glenelg way) would have been the more affordable boarding schools for boys back then (for some definition of affordable) while St Peters and Prince Alfred would have catered for the higher end of town. Not sure whether Scotch, Westminister and Pembroke were taking boarders back then….(I’d imagine Scotch would have been upmarket, not so much Westminister and Pembroke).

    Of all of them, only Pembroke would be non-denominational (as I think its predecessor King’s College was). 2 of the 3 (SH and Ros) I mentioned that were definitely open (and reasonably affordable) would be Roman Catholic – so someone requiring a boarding school could easily end up in the Catholic system without necessarily being a Mick.
    Not sure of the history, but in the last 30+ years Rostrevor and Sacred Heart have been very strong footy (Aussie Rules) schools – so its also conceivable that someone would be sent to them if they’re expected to be a talent.

  1024. john sanders on May 24, 2021 at 3:13 am said:

    Peteb: What finger in what shot you be on about min. The original ‘News’ photo depiction that you’ve been on about lately and to be found on your own most authoritive TBT web site which I mentioned yesterday, is not the one displaying “Good on you” Gordon’s telltale fingeprint.

  1025. Peteb on May 24, 2021 at 7:36 am said:

    No mate, the original before Eric the editor chopped it out. Google it then get back into the classroom with all of us else.
    And NickP, you need to change 90a Glenelg St to Moseley on your cipher foundation site. DA’s followers have found you and their attention demands accuracy.

  1026. john sanders on May 24, 2021 at 8:35 am said:

    Our author went to Marist Brothers at Paringa Hall for the winter term in ’56 from memory and in the book spoke of walking down to beach and X along Whyte Street. He joined the cops around ’64 and became a detective in ’74 same as someone else comes to mind (not Christoper Gordon Cramer ’47). I’m vaguelly aware of a case involving the body of a Japanese girl who was found in a wool press in which Gerry ran as a successful murder investigation, so I’d say he knew his job well enough to have achieved the rank he did.

  1027. Peteb on May 24, 2021 at 9:27 am said:

    He collared a few in his time, some of them very nasty.

  1028. john sanders on May 24, 2021 at 10:44 am said:

    I think I mentioned Eric somewhere just now. Anyway when you look closely at your own two pics of the page young Kerrie you’ll spot the big difference. If not please take up the dunces cap and stand in the corner til playtime…..Now for a little song clue to the big gaff….What a difference a day makes…”Twenty four little hours that fooled Cramer and Bow es”.

  1029. Peteb on May 24, 2021 at 11:35 am said:

    Yeah well, sometimes you have to let one ball go in to get a better shot at the next.

  1030. john sanders on May 24, 2021 at 12:39 pm said:

    Whilst I can’t find anything to the contrary, I can”t see how ‘The News’, being an afternoon rag, by then under Murdoch control would bother going to press on Saturdays, thereby missing out on the day’s sports forcasts and results including half the footy scores or worse still the nation wide racing roundup. That would surely have to take precedence over mundane stuff such as news on some bloke who offed himself at Somerton the year before by any astute reckonning. In anycase a dyed in the wool sportsfan like Leane would likely have been at the track or out watching his beloved Norwood wallop Port Adelaide, rightly expected of a copper on the ascendency. Of course by then he already had the evidence on ROK that he desired and with which he hoped to put the dreary Tamam Shud case to bed. At that stage he would never have countenanced the idea that a fake nursing sister named Jessica Harkness would come out of the blue and pull a stunt like she done.

  1031. john sanders on May 24, 2021 at 1:21 pm said:

    And rightly so my man. Even greats like Bobby Charlton were known to take a dive in the goal mouth occasionally, draw a free on some upstart no name to get set for a sitter. Sometimes it pays to play the man and not the ball.

  1032. milongal on May 24, 2021 at 9:14 pm said:

    Although I’ll grant that’s an interesting point – with footy traditionally being 2PM on a Saturday in Winter and in cricket running most of the day in Summer, scores wouldn’t start to roll in until about 5PM (not sure how quick Vic results would filter through too) – so an afternoon rag on a Saturday would certainly miss it.

    I guess there’s a reason “The Advertiser” survived while “The News” went bust in Adelaide.
    Neither news nor sport is what them papers are about….

  1033. milongal on May 24, 2021 at 9:24 pm said:

    @JS let me know what you want from the NAA….if you don’t want to discuss here, I have an email (I don’t use it normally but if you send stuff there and tell me it’s sent I’ll find it) at:
    fredbobmagee at gmail.

  1034. john sanders on May 25, 2021 at 4:34 am said:

    milongal: No need to be sneaky about doing something that’s above board and on the record as a file open to public access. I’ts an immigration case from 76/77 vintage in the applicant’s full name of Christopher Gordon Cramer bn. 1947 and lists four dependants, one of whom is still close. Don’t know why it hasn’t been pulled before as there may be a couple of useful tid bits like his police career, trade skills etc., which may serve to put him in a better light than his post immigration reputation suggests. NAA search details are easily accessed on line and if you can hook up with the goods at the old PH reading room for nix, as they say, nothing ventured etc.

  1035. john sanders on May 25, 2021 at 7:01 am said:

    How is it that such a reportedly well schooled fellow and self claimed angry intellectual to boot, goes to such extraordinary lengths to portray himself in an opposite and contrary light….Peteb: Guess you’re still pushing the ROK Leane handover on Saturday and not Friday arvo despite majority opposing views, and are you firm on both torn page pics being derived from a single, albeit photo fitted exposure…No need to admit your embarrassing stuff up with Leane and Brown re the Littlemore interview, I would have but then I have nothing to lose..

  1036. Peteb on May 25, 2021 at 10:21 am said:

    This is no place for intellectualz, Dusty, we are the miscellaneous people.

  1037. john sanders on May 27, 2021 at 6:15 am said:

    I’d go along with the theoretical ‘Who saw the Freeman ROK and who didn’t”, but only to the tune of three our of four and nine out of ten respectively. Those for the motion being all those listed, bar the alleged brother-in-law who only ever existed in the minds of Gerry Feltus his proposer, Peteb the poseur and his colleague misca nada. Those unsighted being represented by all but Len Brown, of the small writing and fondness for weekend duty, who claimed to Reg Livermore off air in ’78 that he had seen the ROK though well after the handover.

  1038. Peteb on May 27, 2021 at 7:22 am said:

    How about we add Canney, Horsnell, Sutherland and whoever else was on the bandwagon in July 1949 to the have nots. It only gets better.

  1039. john sanders on May 29, 2021 at 1:16 pm said:

    Peteb: Adrian Ernest Thomson 2/11 Searchlight Battery was Prosper’s older brother bn. 1911 but seemingly of no significance according to our old pal Xlamb from many years ago. There was also a daughter same name as your sister from memory and doesn’t seem to be of much concern though I never followed up.

  1040. john sanders on May 29, 2021 at 1:35 pm said:

    …Belay my last, I’m thinking Isobell [sic] for the Thomson lass, same as Alf’s missus Susie though my memory ain’t that great these days.

  1041. john sanders on May 29, 2021 at 11:24 pm said:

    Noted on Big Footy yesterday a Cramer @ redacted link to an interesting Adelaide Advertiser article of 23rd May sans the usual NL paywall. What GC has done was to cunningly inserted his own pics amongst those supplied by the rag, including his own marked up code page, the Jestyn 70 endorsement of Alf’s ROK and Cleland’s notes which I had located for him, but which he claimed to have found his redacted AO. All cleverly made to appear part if the story, so I’m wondering if old Rupert Murdoch’s News Limied, owner of the rag, takes exception to people who doctor his copyrighted stuff. I’d be inclined to sue ifvI were he.

  1042. john sanders on May 30, 2021 at 7:18 am said:

    And they keep right on coming Peteb. Just recalled Ernest and flossy had an older daughter in between Prosper and Rollo from memory, also born in Townsville or Charters Towers and was a nursing sister during the war. Can’t think of her name off the top of my head but It’ll come and I recall from my own humble efforts that she died old and Rich in Qld. If you go over to Web Sleuths you’ll get the Thomson lineage courtessy your old flame Ruth Collins who was hooked up with James, out of Africa at one point.

  1043. Peteb on May 30, 2021 at 7:59 am said:

    I’ll get onto it as soon as the quack sets plaster on me broke fetlock, stepped into a rabbit hole and something snapped.

  1044. Peteb: at least you escaped, there are some I’ve seen who have been stuck down a rabbit hole for years.

  1045. misca on May 30, 2021 at 11:48 am said:

    Correct JS.

    Ysabel Alice Fortune Thomson (b. 1915 d. 5 Feb1993). She never married. Not sure if she was rich.

    This all does seem a bit deja’ vu. I thought we had gone over all of the siblings years ago?

  1046. john sanders on May 30, 2021 at 10:47 pm said:

    misca: I’m sure that my girl was married and ws still with us when I last checked in 2016. She was definately Rich and was living in Brisbane at the time so Ysabel [sic] and this slightly younger were more likeky to be sisters. That makes five boys and two girls for Alice and Ernest.

  1047. john sanders on May 31, 2021 at 5:50 am said:

    The simple explanation is that Sister Y.Thomson actually started life as a Murphy and she married galloping young Sargeant Eric Thomson four years her junior about 1943 after the pair received some news of an unplanned upcoming event. Same as was inflicted upon our Sister Jo Harkness in ’46, with no fellow decent enough to take the blame until gallant Prosper Thomson stepped up to the plate. Yolande Mary Thomson, Rich at last, passed on in 2016 aged 99/100 thus having been exhonorated by default, deserves all the rest she can get.

  1048. misca on June 1, 2021 at 1:12 am said:

    Sure. Simple explanation is that “Sister Y.Thomson” just wasn’t a sibling.

  1049. john sanders on June 1, 2021 at 3:29 am said:

    Peteb: “Have we got a Thomson family tree”? you ask hopefully…Have we ever, thanks to GC’s field operatives, noted students of genealogy in their own right, Peter Davidson for the Thomson Aussie line dating from 1867? with birth of family patriarch Ernest Chalmers, and retired scientist Byron Deviant who follows the Hawkes/Fortune dam lineage way back to the first Earl of Leicester from memory. Sadly for us hard pressed geriatric researches with a will, but sans ‘Pay to Play’ funding, So it’s a matter of what scraps are thrown our way and when, unless your ever comliant colleague Misca can come to the rescue. NB (must check Ern’s DOB).

    I’m sure this little observation must have dawned on the lads above, but who were not in a position to conceal it and it only came to my attention through somthing or other in your thread that caught my attention. Old Ernie must have been a good stayer, a but like Grecian Vale an honest old plodder from the sixties; For starters he was a score older than wife Akice and whilst his boys seemed to pass muster for age limitations, unless our man Davo hasn’t stuffed up, then dad had to have been in his mid to late fifties when he sired them ie., 1921 (Jess) 1923 (Jean) and 1926/8 (Ellen).

  1050. john sanders on June 1, 2021 at 4:13 am said:

    Anyone picked my gaff re Harkness sisters being begat through genes of Ernest Thomson, quite deliberate of course, picking up on new disclosure of likely gene interplay between the families by Derek’s Colleen Fitzpatrick. Some won’t agree naturally but, Ellen Harkness had two of her daughters at Maryville on the NSW Central Coast, where widower Ern Thomson retired to and died in 1956. Anyhow Alice’s last child Quentin in 1922 still leaves Ernie a bit long in the tooth for siring at 55 and she at 36 a tad old herself having regard to those times, so who can tell?…

  1051. Peteb on June 1, 2021 at 7:13 am said:

    Saffron and Gaston .. bullshit or what? Johnno?

  1052. john sanders on June 1, 2021 at 7:43 am said:

    Misca: Exactly spot and jolly perceptive of you. With the highly circumstantial lead background and amazing coincidentals, I now plead my case, ie. E. Thomson fits both Ernest and Eric for Yolande with initial ‘Y’ (my only availalable search target) and also Ysabel both Thomson girls being of the same age and birth region. Not bad considering all I started out with back in the day was a brief detailing of Yolande’s credentials as a nursing sister, presumably unmarried with Thomson as her maiden name. Keeping in mind I was only interested in compiling Prosper’s family detailsm nought else. Some will always find fault in my small outlay research methodology which I’ll learn to live with.

  1053. john sanders on June 1, 2021 at 12:31 pm said:

    Peteb: Keeping in mind, Colleen Fitzgerald’s impeccable credentials with her assertion that Robin’s daughter Egan shares the Thomson bloodlines, there can only be one viable explanation. That is that Ernest Chalmers Thomson fathered Jessica in 1921 by Ellen Harkness. It falls readily into place based on my certain knoweledge that she was born at Maryville (not Marrickville) Salvation Army lying in hospital for children born without known fathers or alternatively out of wedlock. Whatsmore it answers all the mystery surrounding Sister Thomson’s own obvious early life disconnection with the rest of the Harkness clan. Very simple if one has an open mind and can put together how it all transpired. I posted quite a bit on this when trying my best to placate your rather impetuous colleague a while back to no avail but that’s where intuitive research outside the defensive mainstream circle wins out in the final analysis. No need to go out on any limbs in telling it like it can only be. Jessica and Prosper are half sibling related, which is of course why there no birth certificare or marriage papers have been produced and as to why Katherine Thomson is so apprehensive. She must be in on the game too as is her newfound prick relation and protector Dereck Abbott, along with the whole kit and kaboodle of the weird Marshall mob if needs be known.

  1054. Bumpkin on June 1, 2021 at 3:08 pm said:

    JS; There is also the possibility that Prosper Thomson was the biological father of Robin Thomson and, therefore, was the paternal biological grandfather of Rachel Egan Abbott.
    It will be very interesting if any SM DNA matches Kate Thomson or any known Thomson kin.
    Only time will tell.

  1055. Bumpkin: yup, bullshit talks but DNA walks.

  1056. john sanders on June 1, 2021 at 10:47 pm said:

    Bumkin: If Robin was fathered by Prosper, would that not negate the chances of Rachel Egan, she being theoretically twice removed off the Thomson male lineage, testing positive to that gene pool. Thought that only a female relative like Jessica Harkness could make that scenario work, though I’m probably confusing this set up with crossbreeding merino/ border Leicester come backs.

  1057. milongal on June 3, 2021 at 1:36 am said:

    I get confused why people dismiss Prosper as a possible father given Thomson DNA. There are different types of DNA that are traceable different ways, so I’m not sure you can categorically say “it didn’t come from Prosper” (But I know SFA about DNA so could be wrong).

    The one that interests me is PeteB in his comments suggesting at the Jessica level of the tree another Thomson male might have been involved (there’s also a bit about Roma not being Prosper’s sister which I found strange – wouldn’t you be looking at her as a missing daughter/niece?). While possible/interesting (maybe…. there’s the early adoption of the Thomson name) surely the most obvious meaning is that Prosper Thomson was Robin’s father?

    Next we’ll be hearing that Prosper was Jessica’s dad (and was also Somerton man). The other Prosper was an impostor who’s game was spoilt when the real Prosper turned up. Somewhere along the way JE decided to pretend to be a Harkness so that she could marry Prosper (the impostor, not papa). etc, etc, etc….
    Pros:
    – Harkness’ past is trange
    – reaction to the bust
    – Early adoption of Thomson name
    Cons:
    – What a load of bollocks.

    Why make things more complicated than they are?

    More seriously, am I missing something really obvious (that noone is actually saying but everyone knows) or are people trying to make this more complicated than it actually was?

  1058. john sanders on June 4, 2021 at 4:19 am said:

    Just watched ‘Missing Pieces’ for the first time courtesy of a BF link and must say it presents as being by far and away the best for it’s reasistic coverage and chain of events including Jessica’s old work mates and relatives even her younger sister Nell McLeish. Something that I was not made aware of before, was when strapper Neil Day revealed that when he and his mate Horrie Patching arrived upon the scene at dawn, they looked up and saw big wig racehorse owner (Comic Court) and new S.A. RSL El Supremo, Col. Arthur James Lee descending Alvington beach stairs. No doubting that he and top Jock Patching recognised each other but as Neil did not elaborate further we’re left to wonder. I think it likely that soon to be Sir Arthur Lee in his role of Federal Government key advisor on immigration, grew wings and made like the proverbial pigeons…T’other interesting piece relates to the surprise appearance of Gordon Strapps who, after repeating the crap about he and Olive visiting Somerton to cool off after work, admitted that the pair, did infact have a full unimpeded view of the body as they left the scene, this being at variance to their Sworn testimonies of the inquest which we had suspected all along.

  1059. john sanders on June 4, 2021 at 9:07 am said:

    Peteb: Sorry to jump in so quickly but, Qeenie and Prosper’s Elizabeth only lived for a very short period after her birth in 1938 if memory serves true, which may solve some issues re Prosper’s fathering capacity to which I just made reference.

  1060. Peteb on June 4, 2021 at 9:43 am said:

    Copy that

  1061. john sanders on June 5, 2021 at 2:25 am said:

    Peteb: We know for an absolute certainty (one of the few) that Queenie Thomson flew into Adelaide on 18th May alone to all intents. Prosper was still in the eastern states, as was the unknown, un knocked up nurse according to your proposed timeline brief. What then might the good lady have been up to in a town to which she had no personal connections so far as we know. It could not have been to do with divorce proceedings as the marriage to Prosper had been in Melbourne, unless of course it was to look into business opportunities pending the couple’s intended relocation. Perhaps it would have been once worthwhile to having had a closer look at her own background for character traits that she may have shared with her main man. She claims to have been a hair salon stylist, but of course she would on her marriage rego. wouldn’t she?…

  1062. Peteb on June 5, 2021 at 8:27 am said:

    I’m thinking that a go-getter like George wouldn’t leave his Vicco turf unmanned, and the old lad would have had enough readys to swing for a return airfare to there from Adelaide .. either that or a one-way, the drive home in the almost new deal of the century. New plates our speciality, and that’s the dude’s territory.

  1063. john sanders on June 6, 2021 at 2:40 am said:

    Seems that old 4711 is no longer on his pat malone, with Nick and Derek also wanting to present their claims to a bit of the GTA action, nervous apprehension to the recent uplift no doubt. Somewhat surprising in that two presumably well read fellows with fortunate university educations might wish to go down such a bunny trail. One that started out with no more on offer to prove SM’s asserted vocation than a few everday tools in an abandoned suitcase and a most unlikely means of confirmating ID. Not that I’m totally panning likelihood of a well dressed elderly car thief lurking on Somerton Beach on a summer evening it may well be true just as the Dude has so often pontificated. So too are many other possibilities for a variety of different trades and callings of no lesser appeal. Such as might tempt a betting man with a spare blue Franklin or two tucked carefully away in a barely accessable fob (non Stamina) pocket for which with to have a flutter.

  1064. john sanders on June 6, 2021 at 6:16 am said:

    Peteb: Guess we can let you get away with “The 60 minute interview….” for that’s about how long it lasted truth be known. Your assertion that Jessica and Prosper were not yet in the public domain in 1978, does not seem to hold up even by her own alleged admissions to Feltus about speaking to the press in the sixties? and further proof of her identity coming from Dets. Ron Thomas in ’73 when telling John the postie that he knew the Thomson’s socially. Another copper suggested something similar to Max Burgess, ace Mirror columnist back around ’63 from memory. Of course most is press gossip which we must try to avoid passing on to believing punters who call it fact; still you and I are not the only offenders by any stretch. I sometimes cringe in desperation with Nick incredulity for plain fact and showing preference for undisguised hearsay in many of his thread leads, even having the gall to critisize others who might deign to do likewise, much of it in a genuine belief that the offering to be God’s Truth, which is a reasonable out .

  1065. Peteb on June 6, 2021 at 10:12 am said:

    Pity none of those chatty coppers ever mentioned spotting the book in question … looks like old Leano hid it in his desk drawer then forgot about it. You reckon?

  1066. milongal on June 6, 2021 at 8:36 pm said:

    Given Thomson DNA maybe we have to reconsider why Harkness called herself Thomson before she was married. It’s easy enough to dismiss (as most of us have in the past) but perhaps there’s something more significant there.

    Alternatively, perhaps SM was an illegitimate step-brother of Prosper’s or something. Perhaps we’ll find that SM is a Thomson carrier too…..

    Or perhaps, as ever, we’re overthinking it….

  1067. john sanders on June 7, 2021 at 9:00 am said:

    Peteb: Re your thread on Mrs. Thompson [sic] upon her reaction to seeing the bust; It might pay to bare in mind that here was a woman 4′ 9″ led into a small room with four hefty 6 foot suits and expected to act like she was in her own boudoir. With Lawson doing his magician’s trick in exposing the black cloaked monstrosity bust with stark white countenance and ginger animal hairs sprouting from it’s huge shoulder not blinking an eyelid. Had she been about to faint or more likely fearing for her dignity we can only wonder, but one thing for sure it wasn’t because of any confronting likeness to anyone she knew, for as Lawson was to testify , the bust was not a good likeness of SM or another one might care to name.

  1068. john sanders on June 7, 2021 at 9:31 am said:

    …Then of course, here we have a scientific man meticulous in his diary entry notations but for incorrectly calling the museum visitor Thompson with a ‘P’. There was of course another Mrs. Thompson who was a regular pest in her attempts to convince cops that SM was woodcutter Walsh. So you can bet she would have loved to see a mask likeness of the mortuary stiff and what’s more she appears no taller than your average Jo from the pics..Food for thought what?

  1069. Peteb on June 7, 2021 at 11:06 pm said:

    JohnS: re your comment on Mrs Thompson (sic) … What a remarkable memory the woman had when confronted by Det Canney one morning out of the blue about a chap being found dead just down the road (what a surprise!!) with her phone number written on the back of a Rubaiyat somebody has yet to see. Remarkable too was her memory when picking out details of a long ago acquaintance …. his name, address, marital status, workplace, social habits, foreign postings, rank, friends, meals and drinks shared etc etc … wonderful stuff remembering all that after two moves interstate, a new boyfriend, a new baby, a new home in Adelaide, a new job .. just remarkable.

  1070. john sanders on June 8, 2021 at 3:05 am said:

    Peteb: Your latest on a Jessie (sus.) Harkness’ birth registration taken from NSW bdm and posted by @ No Name, initially seemed deficient in detail to what we’re used. I cross checked on findmypast’s excellent UK version with known back-ups and you can guess the result. No Name!

  1071. john sanders on June 8, 2021 at 8:40 am said:

    So having read and digested GC’s first installment of Paul ‘Old School’ Lawson’s 1948 remeniscences entitled ‘Boom or Bust’, whereupon at the insistence of S.A. Museum big wig Hale, under supervision of our Leane team of four blue suited mortician assistants, the start of a bust of the Somerton beach body was born. I must say the way Paul and his ghost writer expand on the the yarn beats crap out of the dreary true version of events. The one where S.A. CIB chief William Sheridan (old school detective) puts the idea for a plaster cast to John Cleland (old school fungus fan), who in turn talks it over with his best mate Herb Hale (old school prawn peeler) who has been at the museum since Queen Vicki’s reign. Tis followed in due course when ‘Henry’ Lawson (old school bird stuffer) is asked if he wants in on a ‘foreign order’ for the filth at best mates rates, which he’d be silly to pass on. The rest being too dreary for words…Good on you Gordon, can hardly wait for the next chuckle choked chapter.

  1072. john sanders on June 8, 2021 at 10:46 am said:

    Peteb: What’s no less remarkable is that early AM the day following her celebrated bust bust, reporters from three Sydney newspapers plus the Woman’s Monthly were outside the Boxall’s front door demanding information from Dulcy in her dressing gown. Alf had started work early, missing the confrontation and the cops who seemed in no hurry. Not so remarkable is that by close of business that same day Adelaide time, the body on Sumerton Beach investigation was past history.

  1073. milongal on June 8, 2021 at 8:35 pm said:

    @JS: Are you saying a private site is more reliable than the official record**? It’s worth noting that in some states (including NSW, I’m pretty sure) only release birth records 100 years after they’re created, so findmypast (or other private sites) wouldn’t necessarily have been able to confirm the detail before this year (that’s if they even confirm it – if it’s anything like ancestry it often requires plebs to do the hard work – so records only exist where someone has been digging).
    I *suspect* when they have records not yet released by official sources, they come from church records – which aside from often being unreliable/incomplete/unmaintained, need people to be baptising their kids.

    It is a little interesting that (admittedly after only 5 min of searching) I can’t seem to find any newspaper records of her birth – but I’m not sure that means anything. Although I know people who seem to live their lives on notifying newspapers, that certainly wasn’t the experience in my family.

    The problem (like so often in these things) is, if you can’t trust the official record from Births/Deaths/Marriages, then why can you trust other sources? These days I think *some* personal notices are semi-verified by the papers (if they can’t trace a funeral director dealing with a death you’re trying to post about it doesn’t get published, or something), but even today, I’m not sure marriages and births are verified (could be wrong). So it’s easier for a bodgey newspaper record to exist, than a bodgey Govt record. Even if we rely on parish records, I would imagine it’s far easier to manipulate a parish record than a government record (largely because churches tend to be very trusting of the volunteers so keen to maintain their records). So for me, the absence of “other” sources does not outweigh the presence of an official record.

    NB: I don’t know how pedantic they are about the 100year limit, but I think the presence of the record suggests the actual date is before June 1921 (I’ve seen “19221” often, I don’t recall seeing an exact birth date).
    NB2: I’ll grant that it’s a tad odd that even DA’s site (who you’d think was most likely to know her birthday) lists her birth as “1921” while Prosper’s is the slightly more accurate “October 1912”.

    **NB3: I do sit in a funny place with official vs private – and I’ll use wikipedia as an example. If you have topics that people are passionately geeky about, then often their knowledge is beyond official records. Find a wiki page about specifics of a particular model of bus or train, and change some details – in less than an hour some geek will be calling out “….You’re wrong because….”. But that’s for a specific type of niche topic that attracts a lot of “experts” (I remember reading a thread on busaustralia where someone got upset that someone referred to a “Denning” as an “Austral Denning” – apparently while there are buses branded Austral Denning, the brand didn’t exist at the time the bus was built – it caused a lot of angst and consternation amongst the geeks who were incredulous that someone could be wrong on so trivial a fact).

    Easy Reader version: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

  1074. john sanders on June 8, 2021 at 10:57 pm said:

    milongal : Not saying nothing, especially anything suggesting that pay to play BDM would be more reliable than the NSW govt. mob and all the good oil if only they’d release it. I don’t have an account with findmyarse or anyone else for that matter, but at least I can access details of any hits on a name and in the case above there were none. Of course had our Jessica (not jessie) been born/registered in 1921, we would expect in light of the 100 year access rule, that her record can be found. That is, providing input details are accurate and therein lies the problem mate!…

  1075. Peteb on June 8, 2021 at 11:28 pm said:

    It was the Woman’s Weekly, JS, run by my old neighbour Frank Packer in Eureka. The sign on the gate still reads ‘Gretel’ … and his macadamia plantation is home to some very hefty wild dogs.

  1076. milongal on June 9, 2021 at 12:31 am said:

    After all of that, I might walk back some of what I said…..
    Centennial Park Cemetry records:
    Jessica Ellen THOMSON b 30/12/1899 d 13/05/2007

    If the 30 was a 31, and the 1899 was 1900 I would’ve said it was generic. Hmm…..

  1077. milongal on June 9, 2021 at 3:26 am said:

    NM….that does seem to be their generic date (they have the correct age too)

  1078. john sanders on June 9, 2021 at 7:58 am said:

    Peteb: Sometimes it seems like weekly, yeah you’re right run by the goanna and Ida Buttroast from memory. Why has no one cross checked MyNames Jessie H. BDM search result, what sez misca.

  1079. john sanders on June 9, 2021 at 8:13 am said:

    milongal: What search was that, I just get D.O.D up on the Centenial site and FAG though no mention on BG. Nothing on her DOB or age on the headstone.

  1080. Peteb on June 9, 2021 at 10:49 am said:

    JohnS: not the goanna old mare, Frank was his father: Gretel a lovely woman and a very sleek America’s Cup racer. Wish I was there when it was built.

  1081. john sanders on June 9, 2021 at 1:13 pm said:

    Peteb: That’s right how could I forget Kerrie was the goanna, which reminds me what’ve you got going for the big 77 next week Kez old mate. I don’t need to be reminded of important dates.

  1082. john sanders on June 9, 2021 at 1:52 pm said:

    Boris: Ancient history on Prosper’s GB bond in WA ’38. Facilitators were Dr. Harley Burch of Universal Collections Sydney and his Perth agent Detective Ron Richards Prosper’s arresting officer. Ron later went over to Asio and ran the Vladimir Petrov defection in ’54 but Ron always kept in touch with his old low life informants from his shady past. Almost sure I mentioned this some time back though maybe a bit before your time.

  1083. misca on June 9, 2021 at 6:30 pm said:

    JS -“checked MyNames Jessie H. BDM search result, what sez misca” but I don’t know who MyNames is or what they have found. If you clarify, I will do my best to check.

  1084. milongal on June 9, 2021 at 8:58 pm said:

    @JS click on “Internment Details”, then select “View Map”, then on the page it directs you to click “show me more”.
    I haven’t found any graves with a headstone pic (although the broken picture icon on the pages suggests that might be a work in progress).

    There’s also a Jessie Muir THOMSON recorded at Centennial Park. She’s previously been confused with JE and I think has been (reasonably) thoroughly dismissed. The confusion seems to stem from her last abode being listed as Somerton Park. Byron and JS seem to have covered her extensively in the past, but it’s hard to go past some of the coincidences.

    Did Prosper call himself “George” sometimes (as has been said elsewhere), or is that confusion with this Jessie whose husband was George?

    More interestingly (IMO) is that some time back JS has Prosper’s dad as:
    Ernest Chalmers Muir-Thomson

    I don’t know where the Muir came from, but it seems another interesting coincidence…..

  1085. misca on June 9, 2021 at 10:05 pm said:

    There are three headstone pics available via FindAGrave and they come up on ancestry. There is a menorah with a line in Hebrew and then it states:

    In Loving Memory of
    Jessica Ellen Thomson
    Died 13 May 2007
    LOVED WIFE OF THE LATE PROSPER
    LOVING MOTHER OF ROB AND KATE

  1086. john sanders on June 9, 2021 at 10:25 pm said:

    Misca: June 7th @ Tbt ‘In 2002 I had a length conversation with Jessie thread, MyNames Jessie search result appears and it is directed to misca. The two posts above his are yours…All are still up.

  1087. john sanders on June 9, 2021 at 10:52 pm said:

    milongal: Yes Jessie Moir T. nee Mcfarlaine bn. 1918? moved to Adelaide from Gladstone with daughter Janet after the death (possibly suicide or….) of her husband George A. Thomson in 1941. She lived at Toorak Gardens for awhile then moved to Glenelg. Byron picked her up in Dunleath from about 1959 and she was still in place 1970 until her passing…The Muir name comes from Dumfries Scotland and is quite prolific as a double bunger with common surmames like Thonson and Harkness, usually present with no hyphen and family members either stick with it or drop it according to their whims. Jessie’s Port Headland sibs. all kept it alive from memory.

  1088. john sanders on June 10, 2021 at 1:26 am said:

    I don’t generally hold with the input and subsequent manipulation by half truths and facts of convenience courtesy of GC’s cronies James, Byron and Peter Davidson of the Geni site which is now totally under their control However, I was recently heartened to see one new listing that independently agrees with my own oft stated fact of Thomas Harkness and his family resided in the Central Coast region of NSW through the twenties. It relates in particular to the birth of Jean Moir Harkness at Newcastle in March of 1923 and younger sister Ellen Mary’s 1928? no place birth, plus marriage to a William Lippiatt McLeish. The team insists that big sister Jessica Ellen was a Marrickville, Sydney rather than Maryville, Newcastle birth sometime in 1921. I’ve always held that three Ellen’s in one family maybe one too many, thus supporting the proposition of there having been a split in the Harkness family around 1920. NB: my earlier posts lay out all the associated facts in much (some would say too much) detail.

  1089. john sanders on June 10, 2021 at 4:18 am said:

    Peteb: Only light at the end of the tunnel with all due respect, would have to be the big headlamp above the cow plough on the Overlander from Melbourne coming out of the Belair tunnel and about to swing by Prosper’s spread adjoining the new Methodist? church in Alta Mira Crecent. Hey now can you see the impressive big Tamam Shud sign above the entry gate that Farsi savy rail passengers might easily associate with some ‘The End is Nigh’ Old Testament psalm. NB: Prosper was said to have had some sort of parking affair next to the church extension from about mid 1947 according to a GC gopher’s claim that may even be true.

  1090. Peteb on June 10, 2021 at 9:11 am said:

    randomfh.blogspot.com needs help. Please assist.

  1091. misca on June 10, 2021 at 3:03 pm said:

    I cannot search this site. Not sure why. Nick, do you think that you could link the conversation that JS is referring to?

  1092. misca on June 10, 2021 at 6:50 pm said:

    Got it. Thanks for the help!

  1093. milongal on June 10, 2021 at 10:29 pm said:

    @peteb: Lol – dI thought you were taking the p!ss (let’s say I didn’t realise “fh” would be “family history”

    You talking about the “finding Jestyn’s Phone Number” post?

  1094. Peter Davidson on June 11, 2021 at 4:07 am said:

    JS. Being born in a hospital far from where the parents reside was not outside the realm of possibility. Remember there was no free, midwives, nor hospital treatment in government hospitals before the 1970s. If you wanted to minimize your time in debtors prison, you found the cheapest if your wife had complications. So I wouldn’t take the NSW BDM records for where that sister being born as indicative of where the parents were residing without further evidence like an announcement in a local paper or something.

  1095. Peter Davidson on June 11, 2021 at 5:20 am said:

    or until NSW BDM releases the original birth certificate which should contain the parents addresses

  1096. john sanders on June 11, 2021 at 7:51 am said:

    Peter Davidson: Being more advanced in years, I must correct you in your likely assumotions that good midwivery centres for needy woman and unmarried girls were not so readily available as in lying in birthing hospitals run by benevolent institutions. Case in point being the Salvation home in suburban Newcastle that had been operating twenty years before Ellen’s daughter Jessica was born there probably in late 1921 and I was able to get virtual confirmation from kept records. When answering my request re a certain Ellen Harkness’ delivery at the home and after being informed of no access due to privacy etc., they regretted inabiliy to confirm birth of baby Jessica Harkness (nudge nudge wink wink). It must stand to reason that if Jo’s sister Jean Moyr (Jenny) was born at Newcastle early in ’33, as your Geni mob put up for us punters, this during the family’s pennyless years there, then it’s a good bet that her big sister was too….Nice to have you swing by PeteDavo, see if you can’t make it more often should you need of company and so long as you get thumbs up from the Super.

  1097. Peter Davidson on June 12, 2021 at 5:37 am said:

    JS. Yes the Marrickville listing on the NSW BDM website is an enigma.
    I personally wondered if there’s a women’s prison in the area at the time.

  1098. john sanders on June 12, 2021 at 1:57 pm said:

    PeteDavo: Matraville (Boxall country) female penitentiary, a few miles from Marrickville was the main Sydney based lockup for the fair sex until Silverwater, though if you don’t mind my asking, what’s the connection to the Harkness tribe? Harkness was indeed a very common name in the times we’re talking about and Jessica’s mum was probably born in Marrickville (Illawarra Rd. Nee Princes) Many very well known Harknesses like Don, the internationally renowed engineering marvel of yesteryear had his workshops nextdoor in Leichardt. E.B. Harkness the NSW Secretary was from the same area, although he later settled over the harbour at Clifton Gardens with daughter Cynthia. In my earlier posted research notes we even had an Ellen Harkness working (no rel.) in Marrickville at the Australian Woollen Mills in the thirties. The mind can be boggling coming to grips with this confounding SM stuff what?

  1099. Peter Davidson on June 12, 2021 at 6:59 pm said:

    JS. What Tin Edhouse said in the film Missing Pieces about his grandmother, Vera Lucy Langley (nee Savge) possibly influencing the young Jessica Harkness into dabbling with communist ideology in Mentone lead me on a bit of a deep dive into the background of these connections. Vera gained a CIB dossier in 1918, at this time she’s in Fremantle a few years before John Samuel Langley who’s soapbox anti religious orations gains the attentions of the Rationalist Society which he subsequently joins and builds his commune at Mentone with Vera years later. Anyhow, I remembered the of the Battle of the Barricades occurred at Fremantle around this time so i looked it up and there it was, a ship that you mentioned SS Dimboola
    connected to HC Reynolds and someone else whom you mentioned had tried to set up a stevedoring company. So could this idea of communist ideology that Tim suggested actually been before Jessica? Her parents perhaps? So I discovered a history of Port uprisings along the East Coast too. Could Jessica’s mum of been locked up at the time of her birth due to one of these riots, hence the place of her birth not being in Newcastle?
    All these deep dives are to look for pictures of progenitor of family’s to find evidence of what looks like the Somerton Man’s ears. Most are to no avail. This recent deep dive to look for any evidence to sustain theories that Jessica Thomson was playing with communists.
    The later now seems to have some probable support, but the former, well it hadn’t until I found Vera’s daughter’s (Tim’s mom, Margaret Cohen) headstone on billion graves. There was one name on it that I couldn’t fathom as to why at first, Dr Elef Jorgensen. Anyhow I figured out the connection, but what intrigued me was the notion of whether Jessica Thomson the girl whom was Margaret’s best friend in childhood also was acquainted with the Jorgensens, because after a deep dive into their ancestors I find someone by the name of James Levick, who died in Ryde NSW on 12/11/1883 with the same damn ears right down to the connected lobes and upside down hollows. What are the chances of this being genetic, and what are the chances of the Levick family being an ancestor of SM?
    A cursory glance at this might indicate that we’re going to be looking at a he’ll of a lot of potential descendants, https://eehe.org.uk/?p=25611 however the confluence of time and proximity to knowing Jessica Thomson may narrow down the field. Although I think the DNA detectives will still get there first.
    So here’s a starting point. Madeleine Tudway Jörgensen (Levick) (1900 – 1960). Does she have a contender for Somerton Man amongst siblings or cousins? Or is this another dead end. A pure coincidence in ears? A spontaneous mutation, or is it a common condition amongst many families? We’ll keep looking

  1100. john sanders on June 13, 2021 at 1:09 am said:

    Peter Davidson: Sorry Pete, but I’m on the Tamam Shud case these days, which you may recall is appropos the missing stable hand took ill and sadly passed away at Somerton Beach a while back. Folks wanting discussion on the Rationalist/Red Langley’s, now ensconced at Stirling SA, you’ll get an (H.C. Reynolds) earful and more from Redacted the nice chap with specs and head like a robber’s dog at Big Tootie blog. Alternatively try the TS/BS training cell wing under tutelage of Chris G. Cramer Esq. BS. who’s also keane on the SS Dimboola Hay Banknote case with links to Simon Weizenthall’s post WW2 nazi purge…. Luck on your quest js.

  1101. Peter Davidson on June 13, 2021 at 4:08 am said:

    JS.
    Here’s a response to Jon Sanders that is awaiting moderation on Nick Pelling’s website. I’ve noticed a few changes made by predictive text so I’ll edit them here.

    What Tim Edhouse said in the film Missing Pieces about his grandmother, Vera Lucy Langley (nee Savge) possibly influencing the young Jessica Harkness into dabbling with communist ideology in Mentone lead me on a bit of a deep dive into the background of these connections. Vera gained a CIB dossier in 1918, at this time she’s in Fremantle a few years before John Samuel Langley who’s soapbox anti religious orations gained the attention of the Rationalist Society which he subsequently joins and builds his commune at Mentone with Vera years later.
    Anyhow, I remembered the of the Battle of the Barricades occurred at Fremantle around this time soI looked it up and there it was, a ship that you mentioned “SS Dimboola” connected to HC Reynolds and someone else whom you mentioned had tried to set up a stevedoring company.
    So could this idea of communist ideology that Tim suggested actually been before Jessica? Her parents perhaps? So I had searched for and discovered a history of Port uprisings along the East Coast too.
    Could Jessica’s mum of been locked up at the time of her birth due to one of these riots, hence the place of her birth not being in Newcastle?

    All these deep dives are to look for pictures of progenitor of family’s to find evidence of what looks like the Somerton Man’s ears. Most are to no avail. This recent deep dive was to look for any evidence to sustain theories that Jessica Thomson was playing with communists.

    The later now seems to have some probable support, but the former, well it hadn’t until I found Vera’s daughter’s (Tim’s mom, Margaret Cohen) headstone on billion graves.

    There was one name on it that I couldn’t fathom as to why at first, Dr Elef Jorgensen.

    Anyhow I figured out the connection, but what intrigued me was the notion of whether Jessica Thomson the girl whom was Margaret’s best friend in childhood also was acquainted with the Jorgensens, because after a deep dive into their ancestors I find someone by the name of James Levick, who died in Ryde NSW on 12/11/1883 with the same damn ears right down to the connected lobes and upside down hollows. What are the chances of this being genetic, and what are the chances of the Levick family being an ancestor of SM?

    A cursory glance at this might indicate that we’re going to be looking at a hell of a lot of potential descendants, https://eehe.org.uk/?p=25611 however the confluence of time and proximity to knowing Jessica Thomson may narrow down the field.
    Although I think the DNA detectives will still get there first.

    So here’s a starting point. Madeleine Tudway Jörgensen (Levick) (1900 – 1960).
    Does she have a contender for Somerton Man amongst siblings or cousins? Or is this another dead end. A pure coincidence in ears? A spontaneous mutation, or is it a common condition amongst many families?
    Is it a recessive condition that only shows up when both parents carry the gene and affect a quarter of their children? We’ll keep looking

  1102. misca on June 13, 2021 at 4:30 am said:

    Jeez Peter. That’s a shitload of info…And I hope you/we (sm collective) make it there before the DNA detectives! (Just for fun.)

    I jumped down the Justus Jorgensen’s rabbit hole when DA mentioned Monsalvat and what you post is most definitely interesting! Elef/Ellif was Justus’ brother. He married Madeline Tudway Levick…but in the spirit of commune, there was a lot of fornicating and sharing. Elef and Madeline had a son Michael.

    I have come to your same conclusion about Jessica’s “dabbling” through another suggested “friend” Ada Francis Bernie. They travelled in similar circles, influenced by the same people. Ada’s real name was suppressed by her “fellows” so I wouldn’t be surprised that Jessica’s “fellows” would help out in the same manner. It seems to have been the thing to do.

    I am in the most locked down part of the world. They opened up outdoor pubs tonight. I stubbled in to this most wonderful post but I cannot fathom going back to my notes/bookmarks this evening.

    Vera appears to have had 5 children. Three most definitely with John Samuel Langely, the other two; it’s unclear.

  1103. john sanders on June 13, 2021 at 5:00 am said:

    Peteb: Developments aplenty over at your nemisis’ site. We got our AfIO trainee Redacted driving forward with Margaret Langley’s childhood link to our Jo causing chins to wag, along with cameo appearance by the old lag himself (good onyer GC) in a tutorial role. And if that’s not enough action, we have some spill over right here with Tbt man PeteDavo crossing the floor and to whom I’ve exchanged some banter. Sadly none of this seems to have anything whatsoever to do with the SM dilemma which of course has always been the Cramer orchestrated diversionary agenda.

  1104. Peteb on June 13, 2021 at 9:15 am said:

    JS: agendas are like brothers .. they like to fight it out. You know that.

  1105. john sanders on June 13, 2021 at 10:53 am said:

    Peteb You’re right of course. Agendas might also be equated with birthdays, they come and go and hopefully come around again if we’re lucky. And speaking of birthdays and luck, 77 is beyond comparison considering human life span does not allow for the magic triple seven bonanza. Anyhow anyone fortunate to have been born on June 13th 1944 for example must be feeling pretty mellow to-night..M H R P B.

  1106. john sanders on June 13, 2021 at 10:56 pm said:

    Misca: Guess your Peter D is Peter Davidson @ PeteDavo and who put you on to ‘Missing Pieces’ from 2018 in re revelations on the Jessica Harkness link to sisters Jean and Maggie Langley et al. Guess I casually referred to the interesting show some days earlier after Redacted recommended it over at Big Footy…Of course redacted frequently uses ‘could of’ and Pete says “would of’, which would/could settle any doubts on links between the pair. Probably twin bros.

  1107. john sanders on June 14, 2021 at 5:22 am said:

    Hard to imagine that any of our top notch research team might not have been aware of the ‘Missing Pieces’ existence until…well just now. This of course was the very same film that premiered at Adelaide in the spring of 2018 to which we had been allerted and that the Dude 747 had attended on our as an uninvited in house SM combined blog rep. Besides giving contemporary updates including coverage of the gala celeb arrivals ie., Feltus, Lawson, Abbott etc., he also sent off shots of the stars attending the aftermath drinki poo session and gave a summary of the shows main points next day. We got some new stuff from Neil Day the hoop, a word or two from Len Brown, Elliott the undertaker’s nephew? and various points of view from from a collective of old Jess cohorts and her personal physician to show solidarity. Her alleged connections to former reactionaries the Langley’s and by extention Manning Clarke seemed more to accord with them all having lived in Mentone during the roaring twenties than direct evidence of kindred association..

  1108. john sanders on June 14, 2021 at 10:32 am said:

    Something hit a nerve when Jo’s sister Ellen came on to say her piece, well two nerves actually. Did anyone notice that her name was flagged as Nelle and not the birth name Ellen (reverse) which takes care of a problem I mentioned a day or two back on having one too many Ellens in the family. Problem two and not so frivilous is that ‘Nelle’ Mary McLeish (1928) in 2018 would have been 90 years of age, and while this lass appeared to be of advanced years, I would have put her at least 8 to 10 years younger in both physical appearance and her general manner.

  1109. john sanders on June 14, 2021 at 12:07 pm said:

    I also noted from the ‘Missing Pieces’ clip that Margaret Langley-Cohen’s son and daughter, who claimed to have good recall of their mum’s friendship with Jo, that they both appeared to be no more than say mid 50s. That would have meant Maggie begat them in the mid sixties when she was a fair age being born in 1920, though that could be explained away had the pair been character actors playing virtual roles and the producers merely forgot to tell us.

  1110. JS.
    I’ve been waiting awhile to finally see Missing Pieces show up somewhere where I could see it without a pay wall. It’s no mystery that everyones just seeing it now, that someone on BF found it on the daily motion website.
    And you know Redacted is me. You previously commented when my old phone went kaput and I lost the authenticator app to be able to log onto WS and BF under my old username of petedavo. Anyhow keep throwing ideas and I’ll keep looking, but I don’t expect any of us will find SM anytime before SAPol except by chance. So it those chance coincidences that I look up to see what chance discoveries are available. I’ll watch NP GC or anyone else to see if deciphering squibbles in the book will give us any names, or anything else to look at. I’ll go back over what others have researched to see if there’s anything that can be added.
    There’s no agenda other than that. If anyone uses whatever I find, it’s upto them, but they should do their own verification as whatever anyone writes is their own interpretation of what they see. We all can feel that we get lead up the garden path sometimes, but really it’s only our own fault if we have a emotional response to our own infallibility or to anyone elses. A dead end in a rabbit hole is not a bad thing. It just means that there is one less hole to go down, and that’s a good thing for everyone else looking at the rabbit warren.

  1111. misca on June 15, 2021 at 3:04 am said:

    Hard to imagine perhaps, but sometimes people need to do other things and I took a break from all of this for a few years. Following every day, year after year, is a hobby that few can/want to entertain.

    Nonetheless, I agree regarding “Nellie”, Jessica’s sister. She seemingly would be in her late 80’s/early 90’s and is holding up very well.

  1112. milongal on June 15, 2021 at 3:09 am said:

    Struggling through such a tedious video – everyone seems more interested in making some sort of nice story than necessarily offering any fact.
    Jockey’s claim of a bloke with an overcoat wandering the beach toward Glenelg is vaguely interesting – it had been 20C overnight, but it would beg the question where they came from (presumably they wouldn’t have brought the body from Glenelg – too much chance of being noticed).

    I’ve always assumed the jockeys weren’t interviewed because the police didn’t really think it was a crime early on….but if they’d disappeared already, maybe Lyons didn’t mention to the coppers they’d even been there?

  1113. misca on June 15, 2021 at 4:21 am said:

    “Guess I casually referred to the interesting show some days earlier after Redacted recommended it over at Big Footy”

    Sorry JS…That I’m not following your every post across all platforms.

    I keep asking and no one is providing a link to this Big Footy shit. I have searched for it and only find links from several years ago. As with the “Missing Pieces” bit – do you guys actually expect everyone interested to be following every day over the course of years? Why is every reference obscured? Can’t you just post a [expletive] link? I have followed and read for 10 years now and still missed it. People have shit to do other than this.

  1114. john sanders on June 15, 2021 at 4:52 am said:

    Coupla fluffs in young strapper Day’s movie debut in ‘Missing Pieces’. To start off, Neil speaks of he and mate Horrie finding the deceased leaning with his back against the sea wall with legs crossed, yet soon after he tells ABC that SM’s face was stairing straight up looking skywards and body flat out on the sand. Now with regard to Neil naming a man seen at the steps as Arthur Lee trainer of Melbourne Cup winner Comic Court which ain’t quite right. A. J. Lee was a part part owner of the stallion and well into his seventies, so not likely to be taking to the waters at 5.30am, especially on a race day. With due respect I’d say the passage of time has taken toll on Neil’s memory and so was merely trying to be helpful under pressure. In fact he was on the right track in that his old horse ‘trainer’ Arthur lee, had a returned soldier son who, whilst not knowing one end of a brood mare from the other was, along with two local RSL ex diggers Jack B. L. and Cleve M. S., a regular dawn beach reveller hence Neil’s confusion. PS: J.Cummings trained Comic Court.

  1115. Peter Davidson on June 15, 2021 at 2:39 pm said:

    Misca,

    There’s a couple of threads on the Somerton Man case on big footy

    https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/rubaiyat-suspicious-deaths-codes-spies.1231844/

    https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/taman-shud-case.983169/

    The post from Zedx which alerted me that the Daily Motion website had the Missing Pieces film for free to view including a link to the film, is this one.
    https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/index.php?posts/70401925

  1116. milongal on June 15, 2021 at 8:39 pm said:

    @JS: I think a lot in that video have been encouraged to tell a story, not recount facts (either that or they all have some romanticised ideas about what the facts are).
    A while back the ABC released something that included an interview with Day (I’ll hunt the link). At the time, his story interested me, because when asked about how they knew AM was dead, he talks about “Horrie lifted his leg and dropped it, and he didn’t respond” (or similar). To me, this immediately makes the “crossed leg” bit irrelevant.

    I also still muse of Gordon and Olive – “We went there to escape the heat” – on a 25C day. Is this simply because they didn’t think “We went there for a slap and tickle” was appropriate, or…..

  1117. milongal on June 15, 2021 at 8:44 pm said:

    Also, not necessarily particularly relevant but might interest soem people (and I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet)….
    Another mystery with suspicious death, tags cut out of clothes and unidentified bodies google: “Jennifer Fairgate Oslo” (I think it was also on the Netflix remake of Unsolved Mysteries”).

    Short version: Woman found shot dead in hotel room locked from the inside with all sorts of peculiarities

  1118. john sanders on June 15, 2021 at 10:38 pm said:

    Agreed, actors playing up to the histerical facts ie. ‘Went down to cool off’ was a set piece and identical to what he recalled from 1949. If you say it consistently enough and long enough its bound to stick just like the ‘all tags removed’ from the clothes when infact, from the evidence we are aware of several that were still in place ie., the Stamina tag on the worn duds, another on the spare pair, one on the Pelaco shirt, one on the underwear ‘Jockey’ et al. possibly….Nice to have Peter Davidson come in from the cold at last and relay got a chuckle out of his espionage denetta spy links with Gordon’s input about the wicked troll on the long inactive ‘anemptyglass’ blog.

  1119. john sanders on June 16, 2021 at 7:03 am said:

    Peter Davidson: My compliments to Bruce Hubbard, but to remind him that Adelaide’s Vic. Square at 6.00pm on Tuesday November 30th would likely have been a little more crowded than he’d have us believe. The morning Interstate train/plane passengers, many aboard the overbooked Overlander from Melbourne and other packed rail services including one from Broken Hill, would at that time have been along with local Ballet lovers thronging the city centr. Grote Street in vicinity of the Tivoli theatre would have been abuzz with expectation, prepretory to attending the gala world premier of Juliet Prouse’s ‘The Listeners’…So I doubt that SM the soviet spy might be seen mixing with the thousand plus ballet crowd in the not so deserted city centr prior to surruptitious uplifting then conveyance to Angas St. lock-up for interrogation.

  1120. john sanders on June 16, 2021 at 9:03 am said:

    My mistake, it was Joanna Priest not Juliet Prowse what composed ‘The Listeners’, she was an Adelaide girl who went to Europe and done good under direction of Marie Rambert and her mentor cum occasional dance partner T. Slavinsky. He had composed and correographed a similar Walter de la Mare based ballet ‘Illusions’ which never played due to his unexpected death in 1945….For anyone interested WdlM wrote hundreds of clever little rhymes for kids as well as his main stream stuff as well as spy novels and the like over a fifty year span. He used W’s most frequently for starting stanzas and many times repeated the use for second lines with questioning words like when, where, why and what. I won’t be surprised if some smartarse determined geek researcher jags one of the great man’s less known pieces and connects it with the code somehow or other.

  1121. misca on June 16, 2021 at 8:57 pm said:

    Peter Davidson – Thanks for the links! Lots of interesting information.

  1122. milongal on June 16, 2021 at 10:08 pm said:

    I must’ve missed the evil troll. At one stage I thought anemptyglass was going to develop into something vaguely useful (long before Mr Marketing got into it).
    Did I ever mention that GC’s linked in has a review by DA on it for some work they did together (I think at the time DA’s Electrical Engineering post-grads were being
    (mis?)used to investigate the Somerton man. I found it interesting because I thought (could be wrong) more recently they weren’t the best of mates.

    Why would morning arrivals be hanging around the city at 6PM? Granted, they might have been staying in the city, but I don’t think there would’ve been many rooms around Grote St (There’s a few hotels on Grote and KW – I’ll double check when I have a chance, but I think most of them are “pubs” rather than accommodation). I think there would have been some accommodation on Grenfell and Hindley, but I think the bulk of it (as it was until recently) would have been on North Tce – largely to support the people coming in by train). I guess North Tce would probably have been a pretty major Tram hub – so anyone heading into (or returning from) suburbia would be around the place….

    Other than the trams, I’d expect that part of town to be less busy than today. The markets would have already been there (but I think they tended to be open later in the week, and not at 6PM). Frankie X Cathedral might attract a few Catholics for an evening mass but not sure whether they would have had one (I think in more recent history they used to have a weekday evening mass at 5:45 – but I don’t know how long back that would have been normal – maybe I can dig out an old Southern Cross on trove if we’re interested). The Hilton wasn’t built until much later (70s or 80s I think), and a lot of the non-market day around the markets that exists these days (Little Chinatown and the Coles supermarket) are also more recent additions. The Franklin St Bus Station came later too.
    So much of the activity would have been directly related to the Theatre and (possibly) some Government workers heading home from offices in Vic Square.

  1123. john sanders on June 16, 2021 at 11:27 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: Bruce Hubbard’s reference to Adelaide’s six o’clock swill in ’48 was timely considering that Adelaide’s West End brewery which would likely have supplied it’s share of that swill, announced to-day it was closing down. Established in 1886, West End has long held title to being the world’s worst beer along with Southwark, another S.A. lethal brew. One of the evil pair could well have been the poison that took out Somerton Man.

  1124. milongal on June 17, 2021 at 12:07 am said:

    Random thoughts:
    – Jessica was not married to Prosper at the time SM was found (even if she was using his surname). Perhaps this is why the police focussed on her (as the phone subscriber). Did Prosper live there at that time, and would the police have realised it?
    – How much could the “genetic similarities” that DA and his uni mates have often looked at occur throughout a wider family? Is it possible that SM was a Thomson (obviously none that we know, but what about in a more extended family), and could that explain genetic anomalies, or do you expect those sort to be passed directly?
    – Is it possible Jessica took the Thomson name for someone other than Prosper, and Prosper later married her to cover it up?

    Probably other stuff.

  1125. john sanders on June 17, 2021 at 4:49 am said:

    Peter Davidison: In re your Retracted tapatalk hat at GC’s behest. You described how Paul Lawson, Bert Cleland and Bob Cowan conspired to interfere with dead remains, contrary to S.A. Crimes Act provisions, to wit removing skull and internal matter from deceased remains pending death cause and replacing it with a mock substitute with intent to deceive. Such a hienous act could only have been concocted with a view to undermine the outcome of an Inquest determination, which of itself is a serious crime and one in which offenders have no limitation of time protection against prosecution. In that Paul seems to have made admissions in this regard to GC then he is compelled to report any crime arising therefrom to police or risk prosecution of being knowingly concerned with the commission of an offence after the fact. In view of GC’s own recent confession to being familiar with morturial matters from work in homicide, a ‘mea nil culpa ignoramus’ defence would not likely hold weight….Struth it’d be such a shame if our great fiend and associate had to do time for something three crooks conjured up in 1949 to thwart a justicial outcome, the law can be an ass as well.

  1126. john sanders on June 17, 2021 at 5:51 am said:

    When next communicating with S.A.A.G. Vickie whatsit, I’ll see if there be any alternate means of punishing a centenarian returned man found guilty of serious crime. Perhaps there is provision in the Act’s penalty clauses that might deign a plea for leniency to be granted in Paul Lawson’s case. As for accomplice GC’s threat to publish or be damned in respect of his ‘prestine empty head cavity extravaganza; It will undoubtedly be labelled continuity and with his form we must fear the worst unfortunately. As most of our S.A. old lag contributors would be aware, Yalatla’s cell block ‘D’ can be fairly tough on any 74 convicted criminal with haemorrhoids

  1127. john sanders on June 17, 2021 at 7:31 am said:

    milongal: The interstate travellers who arrived 30/11 in the morning and those that arrived by air in the arvo had come for the ballet, thought I made that clear; and of course they’d have been milling around Vick Square around pub closing time (6pm) having noshed at one of the flash city pastie stands, in eager anticipation of the old Tivoli opening to the sellout first night crowd from all states and dominions. That’s how the upperclass got their kicks in them days according to Woman’s Day ’48 era social pages.

  1128. john sanders on June 17, 2021 at 8:17 am said:

    milongal: Random Thoughts sound pretty reasonable in light of all the Thomson DNA/RNA confusion we are now being subjected to in awaiting news of results on the box full of dirt taken ceremoniously away from West Terrace the other week. That the nurse had adopted the monicker in time to register Robin’s arrival in July ’47 does support your suggestion that the name was not necessarily adopted from her ties to Prosper. I recall once looking up commonality of Thomson in it’s various forms and was not at all surprised to see it appear consistently amongst the top order in English names since Adam was a boy….On the Evil Troll, his name be ‘We’ and he was having a fine old time all alone, going about all manner of useful commentary fir self gratification on the well set up (now presumably abandoned) ‘anemptyglass’ board. That is until late 2019 when a pair of suspicious visitors in Peteb and PeteDavo dropped by each with a question designed to be responded to with less than savoury vernicular. Coupla days later the blog mistress blocked poor ‘We’ out of the site for highjacking thus forcing relocation to a more upmarket ameniable site.

  1129. john sanders on June 17, 2021 at 12:22 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: Anyone with a midicum of sense and sensibility (Austen) must surely be able to figure out who the person with the golden invisible stitching technique was that Paul Lawson was refering to. It could be none other than undertaker Laurie Elliott, mortuary mate of pathologist ‘Barb’ Dwyer and by association, a certain pub owner close to West Terrace cemetery. Gawd the plot does thicken don’t it just and all about to be fully laid out as a well orchestrated non covert conspiracy of criminal deception. By my count it implicates no fewer than five maybe more. So ‘good on you Gordon’ for by your own admissions we seem now to have solid evidence for solving the question of who knew what, when and how. Sadly the where and why of SM’s demise still remains a mystery. If I were you Peter @ Redacted, I’d be getting out of Dodge and soonest, if you get my drift.

  1130. john sanders on June 17, 2021 at 1:56 pm said:

    Of course all of the above can be explained away, if the sole motive for the multi faceted part by part spin on Paul Lawson’s involvement with the SM bust job be based solely on the premise of promoting purfidious duplicity for self serving engrandishment. Most well informed bi partisan observers, including a collective of the author’s fawning confidants are surely ont the lurk by now…nes pas?

  1131. milongal on June 17, 2021 at 9:03 pm said:

    @JS: RE the clean skull.
    Perhaps it’s artistic licence, but it seems odd the way the clean skull stuff is described:
    “Paul had commenced skinning the head to a point where he had removed the skull cap when a Detective suddenly entered the morgue and told him to immediately stop what he was doing and that the man was going to be buried that day.”
    “Paul stated that what he found when he skinned and opened the skull surprised him. The inside of the skull was pristine, immaculately clean which could only have been achieved by pouring boiling water into the brain cavity. ”

    1) commenced skinning
    2) Detective came in and said “don’t do that”
    3) Surprised to find the skull totally cleaned
    4) Cleland was annoyed
    5) The stitching was professional

    Let’s think about that. #1 & #3 seem to imply that he didn’t notice the skull had already been opened once before (i.e. had been stiched up, per the later descriptions). If it’s all stiched, then it’s not really skinning, it’s reopening – and clearly he wasn’t surprised the head had been opened, but was surprised someone had “boiled” the skull. I can sort of believe that it’s not unusual in this situation that the head has been pre-opened, but that’s not what the story implies.

    Now consider point #2. “A detective”. Which detective? One already in the story, or a new one? If it’s the latter, how do we know it’s a defective?

    As for #4. Cleland was annoyed. Not ropeable; not incredulous; just annoyed. This would suggest that such an occurence was not unusual. ‘Annoyed’ doesn’t suggest “WHAT THE FARK?” but more like “Damn, I hate it when they do that!”

    And if it’s not obvious, the fact that Lawson doesn’t seem to have thought the pre-opened head was unusual (see #1, #3 above), and that Cleland being annoyed suggesting this isn’t overly unusual (see #4) then it seems reasonable that stitching bodies back up would be quite normal in the morgue (especially during/after autopsy). On that basis, wouldn’t it be stranger if the stitching looked hodge-podge?

    GC puts a lot of weight on Lawson’s opinions – and it’s sort of reasonable given he was directly involved in the case. However, Lawson’s experise was taxidermy of animals (I think), and it was unusual for him to be involved with this sort of activity (on the human level). It is possible (probable, even?) that he had never dealt with a post-autopsy body before – so the observations while useful don’t necessarily say anything for whether what he saw would be “normal” or not in a similar circumstance.

    NOTE: To be clear, I’m not challenging what Lawson saw or how he understood the situation. I’m merely pointing out that he wasn’t necessarily in a position to know whether things he thought were strange were actually all that unusual given the situation, given that he didn’t regularly have to deal with dead bodies, autopsies and morgues.

    Short Version: Reading between the lines the observations of Lawson are probably innocuous and might be normal in a post-autopsy body.

  1132. milongal on June 17, 2021 at 9:04 pm said:

    @JS: My bad – to me it sounded like you were talking travellers AND ballet-goers rather than suggesting one was a subset of the other.

  1133. john sanders on June 18, 2021 at 5:17 am said:

    A tough ask to be sure, but I’ve found away out for Paul Lawson through an entry in his work diary covering the bust making excercise June 7 through July 26 of ’49. The item of relevance particular was the signature of S.A. Museum Director H.B. Hale when he signed off on satisfactory completion of the bust mould , thus proving he had authoritive controlling influence over his worker. The other point in Paul Lawson’s favour, not to mention a smart decision to record in good faith, daily connected tasks in his official government issue diary. This despite it not coming under the critea of a museum taxidermist’s sanctioned duties, the one off job being to all intents an unofficial foreign order and unlawful by rules in place for unclaimed bodies under control of The Coroner. End of the day Paul gets a rising of the court wrist slap sentence for aiding and abetting a criminal act of body tampering; then we go one step further and plead insanity for his biographer in showing evidence of similar acts over a prescribed period to suggest a depraved mindset. Might not work but pro bono legal advice comes cheap, besides who cares so long as the punishment fits the crime.

  1134. Peter Davidson on June 19, 2021 at 3:26 am said:

    Why would Cleland contact Lawson to retrieve the head?
    Cleland either had a tip off or had a moment of spontaneous inspiration for further examination?
    Why would Cleland not ask Dwyer, instead of Lawson?
    Dwyer would of removed the brain to weigh it, examine for obvious things, like stroke, same as other vital organs.
    Presumably they were put back and the body stitched up.
    If Cleland had a tip off from someone attending the autopsy then presumably they would’ve been the brain put back, so when Lawson reported back to Cleland that the brain was missing, it’s understandable that Cleland would be annoyed as it would indicate that after the autopsy, someone else retrieved the brain and destroyed evidence.
    But nothing gets mentioned at the time?
    Nothing is reported to SA Police?
    Incredible or is Lawson misinterpreting what significance there was to Cleland’s request to retrieve the head?

  1135. john sanders on June 20, 2021 at 2:55 am said:

    Peter Davidson: Sorry my reasonably not so serious response didn’t seem to fit the strict critetia that our moderator be so insisant upon whe of a mind which should be a caution for anyone like me having a differing non mainstream point of view or, perhaps an occasional humourous take on other people’s well meaning thoughts..

    I note that Peteb, firmly back in the darul harb camp, put to GC a question along similar lines to your good self, as to why pathologist Cleland would seek to have the Paul Lawson bust sitter’s head in his possession. It goes without saying that the question might answer itself had elementary line of thought be applied. Note that Bertram Cleland in his multi faceted natural science role, wore a variety of hats including some that would be relatively unkniwn eg., Old Bert was the world authority on S.A. fungus varieties for starters, but also being an avid bird fancier, animal stuffer and mullosc shell gatherer. In the field of anthropology he had some odd fancinatoin with PNG cannibal tribes, so much so that he had expressed a desire to sample their fare on an upcoming visit which had to be cancelled due to hostillities (whether tribal or WW1/2 ?)…..One step further would have the great man surely desiring a fine collection of exotic skulls with which to conduct brain cavity space race comparisons and/or to impress his like minded egg head mates. He would certainly have seen in SM a unique prize, there for the taking with little chance of being caught due to his elite status and his having willing dupes to takes the heat if necessary. PS: Trophy value would of course be enhanced by the bust skull having, in the great man’s learned opinion belonged to a well educated type, a ‘Britisher’ no less and thereby unique, if he could only have pulled it off.

  1136. john sanders on June 20, 2021 at 3:31 am said:

    PD: Yes of course, I am familiar with Bert Cleland’s interest in the largely debunked theories and facination with phrenology, I thought that you might not of been.

  1137. Peteb on June 20, 2021 at 8:59 am said:

    John Sanders: two points of order – it was an illness that prevented Cleland from taking on the NG expedition, and he wasn’t planning to sample the human stews, his interest lay in the herbs and spices they added to the broth.

  1138. john sanders on June 20, 2021 at 10:19 am said:

    Peteb: The occasional snippet of licence helps to stir the stew pot whether the additives be boiled heads or coconuts. I’m sure you’d be reasonably familiar with such stress initiatves that may enhance an otherwise tedious yarn, just so long as the fundamental points hold true. Got it?…

  1139. Peteb on June 20, 2021 at 12:49 pm said:

    You want licence? How about 130 new and unusual suspects, any of whom might be our dead red-head?

  1140. john sanders on June 21, 2021 at 4:37 am said:

    Peteb: A few seasons back when German ex internment camp suspects were still in vogue, I had ‘Bluey Somerton’ done up and accoutrered in the guise of a high ranking Oberst commander H. R. Wagner. Hans ran all pseudo nazi resurgent activities in the antipodes, none of which ever achieved desired objectives before his premature demise in ’45. You want to regurgitate that tired old Kramer versus Kramer ticket, with accent now on Lithuanian Jews opposing V2 rocket techos, then that’s your prerogative. PS: The Bonnagilla yarn about the displaced hebe and his nazi helper recognizance recalls similar tales tracing to other camps and also to war crimes tribunal evidence, it seems.

  1141. john sanders on June 22, 2021 at 1:36 pm said:

    Peteb: Yes indeed Kate Thomson said on her 60 minutes show and tell debut that, according to mum…”his identity was known to a level (of authority) higher than the police force” then stuff all else to back up the outlandish claim. But she was not alone in her well rehearsed and rather generously subsidised generous morsel to we the undignified SM punting few. I’ll keep the other informant’s details to myself for the immediate time being in hope that some case savy cove twigs to who that might have been and save me the trouble of spilling the beans..

  1142. john sanders on June 24, 2021 at 11:59 am said:

    Peteb: At the inquest, Jack Lyons who was first cab off the rank went on to say , “The following morning when Constable Moss was there, we found a smoke behind the dead man’s ear which he may have been trying to get at. That cigarette had not been lit”. Moss who was next up on the liars podium humed and ahed as if trying to win best and farest wanted to talk about the same cigarette having been smoked more than half way down to the cork tip…So who you gonna believe, the guy who was in situ first and with Keane eyes used to picking real Rolex’s from Honk Kong fakes at his watch shop; or an S.A. plod who hadn’t risen above local Constable in twenty five years of faking evidence to stay where he was at his shitty Brighton post. Ball’s in your court and not for the first time.

  1143. milongal on June 24, 2021 at 9:57 pm said:

    re “higher authority than police”
    1) Jess could be lying
    2) Kate could be lying
    3) Kate could have misinterpreted something
    4) Could mean a lot of different things
    5) Could be taken out of context (on a whole bunch of levels)
    etc…..

    Total hearsay, with not the slightest to make it even worth considering.

    I come back to a point I’ve often made, the problem with the “higher than normal copper” conspiracy is that it’s a pretty poor effort to cover up. Too much information is allowed to leak out. If “higher authorities” were at play, a lot of the evidence would have been stifled – even if the coppers were unaware. I find it too paradoxical that we’re expected to simultaneously believe “untraceable super spooks could do stuff without anyone knowing” and “the police didn’t know they had to keep sh!t secret”. We’re asked to believe there’s an agency at work that can control any situation, but allows a whole bunch of evidence to point to something other than a mundane suicide (and lets it all leak out via sapol).
    If there was a higher authority, they would be trying to promote the mundane, not create intrigue. There’s too much stuff that attracts attention rather than diverts it – and if you want to play the “no, they were so clever they were creating double blinds” game, you’re an idiot – it literally makes things more interesting when you want something to go away.

    Perhaps the most significant thing is the missing wallet. Let’s assume it was taken by an opportunist (rather than someone involved in SM’s demise). WHy are the contents of the pockets in tact? If you have time to get to the wallet, don’t you want to see what else is in the pockets (what if there’s a loose pound note or something). If you have time to inspect it there, why shove it back into his pockets, and if you don’t, why not take it with you to go through later? If you’re planting stuff to make it look like the wallet was stolen, doesn’t the same thing apply?
    Where would a 1940s chap carry their wallet? Perhaps in a coat pocket? Of course, if he’d had a coat on that morning, how do the tickets get into his pants (surely they’d be easier to thrust into a coat pocket)? So definitely not a long coat (ie something like a sports/suit coat that doesn’t cover the pants). Contrary to the narrative, it wasn’t a horribly warm day and a suit coat may not have been as out of place as people would suggest. But I think any time I’ve warn a suit the tendancy is to store valuables in the inside breast pocket, and anything else in other pockets (suit pockets when they’re available, but sometimes they’re stitched shut because they’re just for show). So would this explain the wallet? It was never in his pants, it was in a suit coat – and an opportunistic robber took his coat and never thought to search his pants pocket?
    Alternatively, perhaps wherever he was that day he’d taken his coat off and it had been left there (and whoever took him to the beach either didn’t realise or didn’t care that the coat was left)?

    As a(ne even more) random thought, is it possible he wasn’t recognised because he wore glasses – so noone was used to seeing him without them? Would the pathologists have picked up marks on the nose, ears and possibly side of the face (I know of people who wore very tight glasses to the point they would cut into the side of their head) if someone was regularly in the habit of wearing glasses, or is it possible noone thought to look because there was no reason to?

  1144. milongal on June 24, 2021 at 10:15 pm said:

    PB: Hanlon’s Razor – Don’t blame malice for what incompetence can explain

    1) Matches could have been missed by Moss
    2) Someone (innocuously) asking about whether there were matches might make people change their statement to mention them…. “Cigarette? There must’ve been matches, right?” – “Oh, yeah, I guess so”

    I briefly worked with people involved in investigations (not police, admittedly) and court. Many investigators are aware of the sort of things that become problematic in court and invariably statements seemed to evolve to minimise the likelihood of them being awkward in court. From what I saw this might mean things like:
    1) Items found in a search are attributed to different people than the person who actually found them (in particular there was an attempt to minimise the number of people required in court – more statements = more opportunity for fuzz, so you’d have this situation where 10 people executed a search and ALL the items of interest were found by 1 or 2 people; the other X number of statements were something along the lines of “nothing of interest was found”.
    2) Investigators don’t always have a good understanding of what might make good evidence (and/or where to look for it). A deposit slip for $20K in $50 notes is dismissed as “yeah, but the guy owns a business so it might be the takings” (think about that – why would a business’ takings be in ONLY $50 notes and be a nice round number)
    3) A search or scene may be a confusing place, and contrary to what TV tells us, not everyone walks around with a notebook (some of them literally think they’ll remember the important bits). The one time I was involved on site, I didn’t notice any of the people there (including people in my agency and people from the local constabulary) taking notes about what was going on. Granted, this was a search not a dead body, but I think the point remains that the extent of note-taking is different based on the situation and the individual person. If coppers think they’re attending “another mundane death” I would guess they rely more on “I’ll remember stuff to write when I get back to the office” than they might if they’re attending a suspected gang shooting (or equivalent).

    etc.
    I for one am comfortable that a lot of inconsistency in evidence is based on incompetence/complacency/apathy rather than conspiracy.

    And extrapolate that 10-fold for evidence from plebeian witnesses….they’re not trained to pay attention, and their memory is easily manipulated (not necessarily deliberately). Refer to Netflix’s “BrainGames” that I’ve referred to in the past to see how unreliable witnesses can be (especially when you introduce people deliberately giving wrong information and seeing how many others agree).

  1145. peteb on June 24, 2021 at 10:38 pm said:

    Coroner calls: John Bain Lyons of 52 Whyte St., Somerton, Jewellery store proprietor. Sworn.
    Question by coroner Thomas Erskine Cleland: Please describe what you observed the night of the 30th November and the following morning.
    John Bain Lyons: I live at Somerton. It is my practice in summer to out on to the seafront every evening. My wife and I every evening took a walk along the seafront, and on the evening of the 30th November we did so. I remember that day. During my walk I saw a man lying on the shore, on our return. We had been to the Broadway, and on our return my wife pointed out the man saying “Look at the way the man is slumped”. He was lying adjacent to the steps in front of the crippled children’s home, within a yard of the steps. It was in quite an open position. I should say the closest I was to the man was 15 to 20 yards, on the beach. We had walked along the beach. I could not see his face from that distance. I did not see his face until the following day. There is a seawall up there, and he was leaning up against that, supporting his shoulders and head. While looking at him, he moved. I had a watch on my wrist, I said “I will report this to the police” in a jocular way, and as I said that his right arm moved, his right arm, moved upwards and fell down.
    Page 2

    John Bain Lyons: I assumed he was drunk and was sleeping it off, and took no further notice of it that night. My remark about informing the police was quite jocular. I had no intention of doing so then. I did not suspect anything unusual at the time. He was lying on his back, with his feet crossed, and towards me. I was on the sea side of the man. I do not think he was wearing a hat. As he moved his arm, I should say it extended fully upwards, and then dropped. I passed on without taking any further notice. We just stopped momentarily to make the observation and remarks. In the summer time I indulge in an early morning swim. On the 1st December I went down the sea early, at approx. 6.35 a.m. I had my swim first, and then went along to meet a friend, (3 of us swim together). He was further along towards Glenelg. I met him and we were speaking together, then I saw some men on horses looking at the body. I had not noticed it before that. I then became suspicious, and then went over and told them that I had seen the body the previous night. After that I went back and communicated with Constable Moss of Brighton Police. I just casually examined the body without touching it. I made sure he was dead as I did not see the face the previous evening, I could not identify the man, nor could I recognise the clothes, as I was not close enough the previous evening. I would however (say) that it was definitely the same person.
    Question by Prof John Burton Cleland: Was there anyone else on the beach at the time? Was there any disturbance in the sand around the decease? Did you see the deceased do anything such as smoking? Did the position of the body change from one day to the next?
    There was one man on a horse, and another leading a horse, 2 jockeys. When Constable Moss came down, he looked to see if there was any disturbance of the sand and the body, and he was sure there had not been. When the hand went up, there was no cigarette in it. I feel sure I could have seen a cigarette if there had been one, as it was fairly light.

    The following morning, when Constable Moss was there WE FOUND* found a cigarette just above his ear, which he may have been trying to get. That cigarette had not been lit.

    I should say his head and top portion of the shoulders were against the wall, using the wall as a support. The body was in the same position the next morning, with the legs crossed.

    My caps.

    Coroner calls: John Moss, Police Constable stationed at Brighton. Sworn.
    Question by coroner Thomas Erskine Cleland: Please describe what you observed the morning of the 1st December.
    John Moss: At about 6.45 a.m. on 1st December 1948 in consequence of a telephone message I received at the Brighton Police Station, I proceeded to the beach at Somerton, where I saw lying near a sea wall opposite the Somerton Crippled Children’s Home the body of the deceased which was fully clothed, lying on its back with feet towards the west, with the head resting against the sea wall, slightly inclined to the right. His right arm was doubled over, palm upwards, and fingers bent towards the palms. His left arm was lying on the sand alongside the body. There was a portion of a cigarette on the right collar of his coat, and held in position by his cheek. I inspected the body, but found no mark of violence. I conveyed the body in a police ambulance to the Royal Adelaide Hospital, where life was pronounced extinct by Dr Bennett. The body was later conveyed to the City Morgue. Dr Bennett made a statement. He said “In my opinion death had occurred 8 hours previously. I am unable to ascertain the cause of death.”

    The cigarette I FOUND* had been partly smoked. I made it my business to make an accurate record of what I found, and I am quite sure it had been partly smoked. More had been smoked than what remained. I was unable to form any opinion as to whether it had been kept behind his ear, or whether it had come out of his mouth. It is my opinion that it may have been in his mouth, he was smoking it, with his head sideways in the positioning which I found the head.

    If found nothing near the body which gave me any suspicion. There was no undue disturbance of the sand. There was no hat found at all. The face was quite visible from a distance, from the right. The spot was quite open, not secluded. Anybody lying there might expect that they would be seen easily by anyone going up the steps to the esplanade to the beach. Those steps are used a lot, particularly on a summer evening.
    Page 4

    John Moss: I was not on duty on that particular evening. I know the locality very well. At 7 o’clock on a summer evening, there would be many people about, and that night was a warm night. I do not remember what the weather during the preceding week was like, but I remember it was hot on this morning. I searched the clothing, found a railway ticket to Henley Beach, also a bus ticket, a tramway bus ticket. There were cigarettes on the body, which were in a packet. I did not compare them with the one that was partly smoked. The packet produced looks like the cigarettes I found. The comb produced was on the body, also the chewing gum and the metal comb. The bus ticket produced and the railway ticket produced are similar to the tickets I found on the body I did not find the slip of paper with the words “Taman Shad (sic)”.
    Packet containing these articles put in, marked Exhibit C.1.
    The body was taken to the City Mortuary. What I have told you is all I know of the incident.
    Question by Prof John Burton Cleland: Were there signs that the cigarette had scorched the man’s cheek? Are you able to say if the body was warm or not?
    John Moss: The cigarette was not smoked as far as it could have been smoked an ordinary person would have smoked it further. There was no sign of blistering or scorching on the cheek. I examined the cheek, and found no sign of blistering or scorching. The body was cold when I examined it, cold, damp and stiff.

    *caps mine

  1146. milongal: “higher authority than police” could easily have been “higher authority than state police”, interstate crime was where a lot of the money was back then.

  1147. Peteb on June 25, 2021 at 8:34 am said:

    NickP: it should be noted that the SA state police also handled what we would now call (state exclusive) security matters .. a special police division was created in SA but I don’t know who got a desk. John Sanders, here’s a chance to show your intelligence-gathering skills. Are you onto it?

  1148. john sanders on June 25, 2021 at 8:52 am said:

    Peteb: Good on you, on your longest post ever. Don’t know who you were responding to, but most observers will surely have noted that my own summation of the Lyon’s v Moss evidentiary difference of oppinion, stating precisely what you took 99 lines to say, I managed in 10. I didn’t see need to make clear the Moss gloss over vis. “There were cigarettes on the body…….”. more of an ‘oh yeah’ sort of add on; …”in a packet…..The pack produced looks like the one I found.” Not a great deal of accent in an important discovery, almost a non issue and of course this evidence might normally have been offered by the attending detective who was stangely a know show.

  1149. john sanders on June 25, 2021 at 9:13 am said:

    Nick, milongal, Peteb and good on you Gordon: Some will recall the setting in which Kate Thomson was being interviewed at the time she made her “Higher authority” claim., Just behind her on the bureau or mantle was a brass set of seven traditional Jewish candelabra. She was puting forward her mother’s belief in the one Supreme being (GOD) the Highest authority of all; So that’s probably all that was meant by the much overblown declaration if it were to be believed.

  1150. john sanders on June 25, 2021 at 11:41 am said:

    Peteb: The National Security Directorate during the war years was a Federal authority run from Canberra with each state supplying seconded officers to perform as ‘Specials’. Sgts. Trezona and Strangway headed up the Sth. Australian field office and were stationed at Salisbury from memory. They would have been called Special Branch in peace time but had more wide ranging powers so as to enable them to deal through both State and Commonwealth jurisdictions.

  1151. Peteb on June 25, 2021 at 10:49 pm said:

    Thanks JS, appreciated.

  1152. Peter Davidson on June 26, 2021 at 9:16 am said:

    Milongal.
    I take your point regarding the Missing wallet. If it was missing prior to him being at the beach, then it opens upon the possibility that if he knew he’d been poisoned then he might’ve sequested the wallet in a location to implicate his killers. This premise would lead to the same possibility with the book. Take a piece of the book and hide it in his trouser pocket, and leave the book where it could be traced back to his killers. The book might’ve not of even been his, but one that he lifted from his killers residence for the exact purpose of leaving a trail of evidence directly to his killers.
    Hence why Freeman s care should’ve been searched. To see if the wallet was hidden in the car.

  1153. Peteb on June 27, 2021 at 6:14 am said:

    John Sanders: I’ve got Leane stepping away from the Somerton Case and handing it over to Brown pre-inquest … that about right?

  1154. john sanders on June 27, 2021 at 6:55 am said:

    Peter Davidson: Hate to rain on your parade but there’s something you should be critically aware of in that the only men who carried wallets in 1948 were ones who had dosh to put in em, which would have been scarce as SM’s back teeth. I don’t recall my dad or uncles ever having flashed a wallet to hint that they were doing just fine thanks and I’ve certaintly had no need for one in the past three decades, apart from a spare my daughter gave me in London to keep my ‘oyster’ tube card from getting lost.

  1155. john sanders on June 27, 2021 at 8:18 am said:

    Peteb: Dunno what could have given you that idea. Leane was still on the game throughout June though the investigation had run out of gas somewhat. He made the news when Lawson was brought in to make the bust and he also came out to tell us that his Egyptian butcher had come up with J. Keanic as a new lead. Don’t forget Brown was an absolute novice having been made detective only the month before SM came to town, Len claiming in ’78 (Littlemore) that he took up other duties right after the inquest and before Freeman’s ROK hand surrender. Well he would wouldn’t he?.

  1156. peteb on June 27, 2021 at 8:27 am said:

    John Sanders … fair enough. Another item that’s perplexing is the fine-fingered expertise someone took to pin-mount the much photographed tools, tie and thread. Who do you reckon put that little exhibition together?

  1157. milongal on June 27, 2021 at 8:27 pm said:

    @JS: (If we believe the traditional story) The guy happily bought a train ticket he didn’t use. Also checked luggage (which I assume has an associated fee), and found some shekels for a pasty. Doesn’t that sound like a guy who has enough dosh so as not to be too fussed when he wastes some?

    I do like the thought “Higher Authority” could be the Almighty, though…..

    @PeteB: Moss talking about it being a warm night suggests he’s got his dates confused. The overnight minimum was about 11C. By Adelaide standards that’s cool (especially at that time of year).
    The following day was a stinker, and by all reports it was already hot in the morning. To me this suggests that the minimum was early in the night. In any case, after a day that hadn’t reached 25C (from memory the top on the 30th was 24.6C if my conversion from Farenheit is correct) I think the assertion “the beach would have been busy because it was a warm evening” doesn’t sound likely.

    Slightly random addendum to the wallet…..if you’re pinching a wallet from a dead body wouldn’t you grab their ciggies too? The previous speculation about brands has suggested that smokes were a luxury that many people struggled to afford.
    But I will dig into JS’s thoughts that not having a wallet was normal (I would have thought at the very least you have something like a coin purse to keep coins from falling out of your pockets when you sit down – although, I guess a lot of trousers have a coin pocket for that purpose too…)

  1158. milongal on June 27, 2021 at 8:56 pm said:

    @PeteB: 2 questions re your latest
    1) Why conceal the TS in an obscure pocket, why not just chuck it in with the train tickets
    2) If the Rubaiyat was Jestyn’s why would she have her own number in it?

    I do think it’s worth having a deeper scratch at Prosper’s relationship with J.
    J was the phone subscriber at that address but was Thomson despite seemingly not being married. This is why the coppers were interested in HER not Prosper (yet we know Prosper was actively using that same number in his advertising). From that we infer they were living in the same house, and most have assumed acting as though they were married – possibly because she was with child and Prosper was protecting her. But how many other ways could we lace the known facts together? On the face of it the actual facts are:
    1) J was the subscriber to the phone number as Thomson
    2) P was using that number (and address) in ads
    Is there other situations that might see them cohabiting and seeming to share surname without them being in a romantic relationship?
    It does sort of seem to be clutching at straws and ignoring a simple explanation in favour of a muddled one (which is generally a silly idea), and slipping down the slope to a ideaously far-fetched one. I think particularly if there’s a line of thinking that SHE had Thomson genes it might need some rethinking of how could that be and what does that mean (and does it explain how some people have described her marriage with Prosper as unusual – I’ll chase down the exact wording, but I seem to recall someone making the point that although the relationship may have been loving it didn’t seem intimate or something…..).

    According to Geni (I think maintained by the same PeteDavidson who visits here – so I’m sure he can fill in the bibs and bobs), we accept that Robin was not Prosper’s biological son. We also know that he had a half-sibling to another child of Prosper’s but there are no other children from Prosper and Jess. Is it possible that while their marriage was presumably to protect some honour it might also have been hiding a bigger family secret (e.g. that they were actually related in some way not publicly known – remember, we agreed above we could get to the ludicrous). To some degree, this might tie in with JS’s allusion to “Higher Authority” referring to their chosen Deity…..

    Of course, none of that helps explain who SM was and how he ended up on the beach and how he fits into the whole story.

  1159. Peteb on June 27, 2021 at 10:29 pm said:

    Milongal … I was thinking she may have jotted down the number as a reminder soon after it was allocated. And a fob pocket couldn’t really be called obscure when practically every pair of men’s duds had one.

  1160. john sanders on June 27, 2021 at 10:56 pm said:

    Peteb: I’d hazard a guess and say Scam Sutherland who was the designated press leak man. If it was him what done the fine-fingered expertise pin work for mounting the select items from the suitcase…he stuffed up! Which gets me back to the unanswered question I put to you about this very same subject a month or two back…So here’s your chance to set things straight on Q & A tit for tats.

  1161. john sanders on June 28, 2021 at 3:41 am said:

    milongal: Sure SM needed change for his ticket to Henley, his left baggage and a pasty or what ever, all up about a shilling, so nothing that would require a fellow to be reaching for his missing wallet. Of course the so called “Higher Authority” story told to Feltus or 60 minutes by Jo’s daughter Kate Thomson could only have meant her Jewish God Jehovah, that she put above the law. Sherlock Holmes elementary intuitional logic one might assume.

  1162. john sanders on June 28, 2021 at 5:59 am said:

    Peteb: Hope you haven’t gone and wasted good money on NAA files for your name and blame roll call on the Bill Simpson/Longfield Lloyd’s set up to identify pre fifth column insurrectionists and post war Nazi fifth fleet loop holers. I covered all this a year back in respect of a pair who came to notice for their scams, Hitler leanings, a suspicious death and involvement in sophisticated tri state auto theft. These so called ‘L…..r and two German rousabouts’, got on the bad side of the Australian security service, both at home in Adelaide/Perth then Abroad in London, Geneve and occupied post war Germany. I was so confident of their connection with SM (dealings with a Mangnoson) I pulled up their enthralling files which you are now able to access for free all the relevant names you’d be needing to close your case. H.W.E.C.vC @ ID 447747 & 778189 and A. P. J. @ ID 771241.

  1163. Peteb on June 28, 2021 at 7:46 am said:

    Damn! I’m exposed. And what was the question?

  1164. john sanders on June 28, 2021 at 9:11 am said:

    Peteb: My new awareness is that from ’49 L.A. Isaacs’ Unanderra made Stamina self supporting duds came with a very deep fob in the usual place right of the buttoned fly, but were invisible to all intents if the maker’s claims be true. I’m not so sure about the pre war or unelastised war models that our man sported which may not have been so fitted from the factory. I can get hold of a new pair from the 1940s in Adelaide for $280 if you’d like; not sure on sizes or colours but be quick for stocks won’t last.

  1165. john sanders on June 28, 2021 at 10:44 am said:

    Question 1/..What one bladed sharpish object is mispresented in the pin pic.
    Question 2/.. What did three nazi generals from Brest and a German born Lib. staffer from Canberra have in common.

  1166. milongal on June 28, 2021 at 8:36 pm said:

    Let’s try a different angle….if the fob pocket was so common, why did it take all parties so long to find it…..even second time around?

    For mine, the TS as a suicide slip (whether an actual one or a planted one) is problematic because as I see it there’s 2 purposes it might have:
    1) some sort of comfort for yourself in your final moments
    2) some sort of message to investigators of what happened (possibly planted by someone trying to suggest suicide)
    For #1 I would expect you’d have it in your hands for your final moments. For #2 wouldn’t it make most sense in an obvious pocket?Even if we accept fob pockets were common enough, why roll it up as tight as possible – doesn’t it suggest some effort to conceal it (by making it as small as possible)?
    In fact, I would argue it’s a bit obscure to be #2 – while the Rubaiyat was common enough at the time, the fact the authorities took some time to work out what it meant suggests a bit of obscurity. Easier to find something English, surely (bibles are a dime a dozen and depending on translation there’s an obvious “It is acomplished”/”It is finished” you could tear out from there – although I guess that assumes familiarity with Christianity). If you want to be clever, surely you can find more obvious “The End” or “Fine” or something that would be more broadly familiar? I suppose if you believe it was planted it *might* be someone overthinking it and trying to be too clever.
    And why get rid of the actual booklet so cumbersomely? Why not chuck it in the nearest bin? Even if it’s a third party trying to make it look like a suicide it seems stupid to put it in a car (with a high likelihood of being found and considered out of place) than in a bin (or as I’ve said in the past, chuck it in the sea). So as ever we’re in this conundrum where whoever the party is are smart enough to come up with a staged suicide, but dumb enough to stage it in a way it’s likely to ask more questions than it answers. Or should we speculate that someone discarded it on the kerb, and someone (possibly the BiL or possibly some random passerby) assumed it had fallen from the car and thought they were doing the right thing reuniting it…..

    It’s one of the reasons I prefer the TS as an identity confirmation. It’s concealed on his person to minimise the likelihood of it being found if things go awry. I’d almost speculate that it’s presence in the pocket suggests either he hadn’t made contact with the intended target, or had managed to re-conceal it unnoticed after contact (either with the target or, as I have speculated before, someone trying to intercept).

    One thing that did occur to me a while back was what if the Rubaiyat was thrown/blown out a window (or from a moving bus) and just happened to land in the car? Of course, that would require a large open window or convertible roof (or utility vehicle)…and probably quite a bit of coinkydink…..

  1167. Peteb on June 28, 2021 at 11:30 pm said:

    Milongal … Moss said he didn’t find the TS slip, he didn’t mention not finding the fob pocket it came in, and Cleland’s problem was trying to find the fob pocket the second time around and for the inquest, three months after he and Cowan took possession of the suitcase and clothes SM was wearing … this info courtesy of a GF email some years ago.

  1168. john sanders on June 28, 2021 at 11:50 pm said:

    Bit of trivia whilst awaiting Peteb’s long awaited game changer. A Brit named H. Taman, a tram man aged 33 arrived Oz in 1923 with the missus and 9 yo nipper.
    NZ born T. Tamam bn. 11/1948, butcher of Bondi flew home to Bondi (where else) in the late 70s. Problem being this Kiwi Maori man’s name was Toni Tamati though misrecorded in incoming arrivals records through no fault of NAA. The final TI appearing as an M, which is indeed a pointer towards other similar misspells in the SM case history.

  1169. john sanders on June 29, 2021 at 6:15 am said:

    Peteb: I have at hand the names (ranks) and cabin numbers of all the alleged displaced Balts delivered by ship to Australia from ’47 onwards, Just one of Arthur Calwell’s ideas to reinvigorate the country’s post war industry by capitalising on a plentiful supply of pre-unionised cheap labour to ensure a future prosperity for all…A tip to get you started would be to read about the good ship SS Derna out of Marseilles in 48 with a mixed bag of jetsam comprising both pro and anti nazis, harmless freedom loving communists, along with genuine Baltic refos and some disguised wealthy Jewish business folk with allegiance to none of the abov. All of them most anxious to populate but not perish in Australia’s sunny clime…The time of their life by Diane Armstrong 2001.

  1170. Peter Davidson on June 30, 2021 at 1:10 am said:

    If anyone is still looking for a Harkness family with the funny ears, wearing American clothes and having some North American DNA going back to the Revolutionary War Leaders, and a smigin of native American. Then there’s the Harkness family of the Standard Oil company
    Example https://www.geni.com/people/Bill-Harkness/6000000002525872704?through=6000000002526222631
    One of his wives was right into ballet too, and she was once married to a Keen.
    But of course, there’s no Somerton Man

  1171. Byron Deveson on June 30, 2021 at 8:07 am said:

    That is an interesting find Davo. A 1962 photo of three American male ballet dancers at the Robert Joffrey ballet company summer workshop at Rebekah Harkness’ Rhode Island mansion shows that all three appear to have the SM ear. I have surreptitiously checked the ears of over a thousand unwitting subjects (standing in queues mostly. I suggest that this can be a dangerous pastime and could get you a smack in the mouth if you are not careful) and I have not seen one SM ear. So, three is a row seems to be anomalous. Maybe it is a genetic feature of male ballet dancers? That isn’t so silly as it sounds because I previously noted that all of the sub ten second 100 metre record holders for whom I could find photographs that showed the structure of their ears, all had SM ears. However, only two were not of west African heritage; one was a white Belgian and the other was a part Australian aboriginal. But that is still two out of two. That is why I suggested a while ago that SM was probably a good sprint runner. This suggests that ear structure is genetically related to the genetic characteristics that make a sprint runner. Maybe somebody might like to check the ears of ballet dancers? I suggest that looking at photographs will save you from getting a smack in the mouth.
    https://www.veranda.com/luxury-lifestyle/a33418354/rebekah-harkness-taylor-swift-song-last-great-american-dynasty/

  1172. john sanders on June 30, 2021 at 8:14 am said:

    No fair Peter, you forgot to give us the spiel about how some new queen of song (Taylor Swift) recently took domocile in the huge Harkness mansion at Watch Hill RI. Furthermore, some time after the old Standard Oil monebags demise in ’54, a body had washed up on a nearby beach. Big difference to our SM being, in that it happened to have a wallet with ID. The offending officer made a rather snide comment to a young Harkness heir who, made a poignant hand guesture towards his house in reply.

  1173. Peter Davidson on June 30, 2021 at 12:44 pm said:

    BD. Yes Rebekah, is an interesting woman. 3 husbands. 1 was named Kean.

    Anyhow check out the ears on her husband Bill Harkness, his dad, his uncle, his cousin, and their grandfather. The ear deformities are definitely genetic and in the male line.
    I’ve gone b back to Scotland in 1500’s with this ancestry looking to confirm where our Jessica’s ancestry intercepts, which it will eventually. I just need to take her tree back much further that you’ve discovered so far Bryan to find it. I’m still looking for where the Jewish part plays in this too.

    In an unrelated, curiosity inspired dive into the ancestry of one of my grandfather’s old flames, whose surname was Crane, I discovered that they were all Jewish, simply because her mum’s maiden name was Cohen, which sort of explains how a surname that is usually associated with anglophiles could be entirely Jewish within a generation just by a marriage.

    All this, is sort of like seeing faces in Martian rocks, as far as finding SM. His ears seem to be everywhere when I look for them.

    An interesting sideline are the war service records of these Standard Oil company Harkness’s. You might find their service histories interesting.

  1174. Peter Davidson on June 30, 2021 at 2:16 pm said:

    Why look for the common ancestor you might ask.
    To look at other descendant trees to confirm something that I’m seeing in the photographs of the Harkness’s of the Standard Oil company fortune.
    My hypothesis is that all males have the ear deformity but not the females nor descendants of the females males. Which would mean that the mutation is in the Y chromosone, which ultimately means that Robyn’s ear deformities could not of been passed down from his mother.
    It doesn’t prove that SM is a Harkness, as SM’s ear deformity could be from another tree that has an ear deformity, but if the hypothesis is correct about the Harkness Y chromosome carrying an ear deformity, then it’d prove that this particular deformity could not of been passed down from Jessica.
    But l need to prove that it is on the Y chromosome first, so i need to find it’s progenitor and compare male and female descendants.
    It would also show that Derek’s wife and kids don’t have it nor carry it.

  1175. john sanders on July 1, 2021 at 9:21 am said:

    I see what Byron meant about the three ballet stars and their large right side cymbas. My understanding is that right lugs are more phisiologically prone to the affliction by an incidence of twenty percent. The awesome dancers show features resembling Thomas Jefferson’s right facing portrait on the two dollar bill; which of itself is about as rare as SM’s own right ear cymba according to antropologist Mike Henneberg of Flores fame.

  1176. john sanders on July 2, 2021 at 1:07 pm said:

    Nick Pelling: You’ll have picked up on the two simultaneous (offhanded) fawning compliments from both enemy camps, with two agents in place to capitalise on any judgmental errors as deemed applicable and, as usual nothing to add to the mix but promise of some proof of stuff all.

  1177. john sanders on July 2, 2021 at 11:45 pm said:

    Peteb: Time’s up old cock, so you miss out on the coveted maze master badge. The following answers have been verified by Foo and found to be generally correct.
    A1…The famous SM pin photo has the knife upside down in it’s sheath. Sellotape has been put on the sharp blade at the bolster to prevent cut wounds to handlers.
    A2… The four Germans were still well inside Brittany when caught attempting to pull out unseen (Australians audiences only).

  1178. john sanders on July 5, 2021 at 5:36 am said:

    In R.L. Leane’s somewhat deranged interview with Stuart the year before his passing, he mentioned a couple of things that stood out that I don’t think were touched on previously…..One related to a journo Dougie Burdon [sic] who was said to have placed flowers on SM’s grave indicating (according to Leane) a possible affair of the heart connection. Douglas Burdolph 1893/1951 had once ran a rag ‘Unley News’ who then became a vocal Labour/unionist most active in local issues, brother Ken being of similar ilk at Federal level. I can’t find much on line to go on but it might be worth a punt checking for an ulterior motive…R.L. Leane also told Littlemore that he had been an avid ROK reader (presumably pre ’48), but that neither he nor any of his intellectual associates had any clues on ‘Tamam Shud’ what/whence etc. That is not until Prosper McTaggart Thomson’s vintage car club mate Frank Kennedy came up with a timely translation..PS: Burdolph’s mum from Sydney’s North Shore may have been a McTaggart from memory.

  1179. john sanders on July 5, 2021 at 9:10 am said:

    Humble apols. Douglas Bardolph was the trouble making poli’s name and he’s got both an Oz and Wiki Bio along with younger rudder Ken. At the moment we have father Henry, mother Mary, Doug and (strangly) youngest bro Clem all tucked away in the tyke section of West Terrace under a big stone cross, with Ken over the way a tad. Back in Melbourne two older brothers, Don and Harry who died from the Flu in 1919 are tucked away under a very well wearing marble slab at Brighton, and to all intents that should take care of Det. A/Sgt. R.L. Leane’s SM flower man Dougie whose name he got wrong like moi….but there’s something weird going on here; not that Clem should have been sent to Vic. in ’26 to be interred according to the Chronical but, there also appears to be another brother James T. and at this stage we ‘don’t know where he are’ (Lawson).

  1180. john sanders on July 5, 2021 at 11:23 am said:

    Peteb: As i was saying a week or more ago and a year ago also from memory, I have all the names of the 100,000 odd folks who arrived on 170 plus ocean voyages from Europe between ’47 and ’51. If you’re up to a little researching go to Fifth Fleet. net, rather than misca’s paywall Ancestry and you get all the other good oil for nix.

  1181. john sanders on July 5, 2021 at 10:30 pm said:

    Sadly we’ve found James. He was the missing Bardolph boy, same dad but different mum and the bastard died in 1936. Six strapping brothers and not one stepped up to the plate in 1914.

  1182. john sanders on July 8, 2021 at 10:42 am said:

    Peteb: I’d say you’re almost certain to be barking up the wrong tree in having SM traded from the Ruskies to service salvaged V2 write-off rockets in Australia. Not a great window of opportunity either, vis your 14 August ’48 letter of interest to agents in occupied Germany and dead on the beach at Somerton by 1 December. The warning pen shall write in vain, the warning voice grow hoarse. I think I told you that old sport but you know best of course.

  1183. Peter Davidson on July 8, 2021 at 1:49 pm said:

    JS, jimmy’s mum Anne Pounder did a tremendous lot of work with the Red Cross during the war. So much so, that she died of exhaustion in 1918.
    And a step brother Reggie, that he probably never met, probably did enough to cover for all of them. https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Reginald-Narcissus-Macdonald-Buchanan-M-C/6000000034209636999
    Interesting bunch of in laws, but no SM contenders amongst them

  1184. john sanders on July 8, 2021 at 3:02 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: Thought the flowers might have been for one of Dougies old union buddies, with an aging Lionel Leane getting the wrong message. Brings to mind an old bush saying vis, ‘A union always takes care of it’s dead’. Anyhow we’ll see if anything else comes up along similar lines…Liked the story on Reg Mac. Buchanan; one fighting man in the family is better than none at all and a hero to boot.

  1185. john sanders on July 9, 2021 at 2:15 am said:

    Peter: There appears there may have been some sort of mix-up with Sir Reg Macdonald’s connection to the Bardolphs of Adelaide through his mother-in-law Annie Pounder’s earlier marriage to a Henry Bardolph. What we could have here are separate entities with the same monickers (before & after), one who married my Dougie Bardolph’s dad Henry, and yet another (your Anne) who, in 1891, by then widowed with two young children, re-married to a manored whisky distiller Sir James Buchanan 1st Baron of Woolavington. She and Sir James had a daughter Catherine who married Reginald MacDonald, she predeceasing him in 1918, then when the old Baron died in 1935, the estate valued at £7,000000 & change, along with Cottesbrooke Hall was handed down in part to a most humbly greatful son in law Sir Reggie ‘Mackers’ MC. Theres always the chance that I’m mistaken in which case I’ll stand corrected, though at the end of the day it’s true what you say re no SM contenders ok!.

  1186. john sanders on July 9, 2021 at 5:06 am said:

    Peteb: You say the ‘Red Bull’ was where the bloke slipped you the Top Secret Nazi Salisbury bound rocket contingent files, plus a one way ticket to Coventry. Only Red Bull hotel comes to mind is quite a ways from Woomera. Sure it wasn’t a pub closer into town like ‘Hero of Waterloo’ down Millers Point, an aptly named blood house for mugs on a mission of no return.

  1187. john sanders on July 9, 2021 at 1:55 pm said:

    Peteb: So all the best layed plans of mice and men are raining on your parade. See you’ve now got Regine S. the new blow in, set on making a mockery of your Nazi rocket man solution, the one with SM flown in from Canada with all the necessary credentials for getting the V2s up and running like in ’44. What a dambed hide trotting out that tired old death wish bogey man at a time like this and backed to the hilt by Clive Walker it seems. Better send the disturbing element over here out of harms way so we can try re-education to get the fool back with the program as required.

  1188. peteb on July 11, 2021 at 3:50 am said:

    The first file I’ve obtained contains a master list of German scientists, chemists, doctors, propulsion technicians, nerve-gas technicians (Sarin @ Tabun), rocketry designers and administrators to name just a few of the specialised fields that looked attractive to the UK in their efforts to recruit the best talent left available after the Russians had taken first choice. The file is dated from 3 Aug 1948 to 29 Aug 1949 and includes all the correspondence. The master list is of Germans yet to be recruited at that date.
    This file is 1 of 3.

  1189. john sanders on July 11, 2021 at 7:32 am said:

    Peteb: Hope I’m not raining on your parade. My understanding is that had any German nazis been brought to Australia, it could only have been via Canada. Seems that when Bob Wake flew to Ottowa at behest of Canberra in ’47 on a Govt. ANA charter to debrief soviet deep throat George Brown, he also had several undocumented meetings with new High Commissioner Frank Forde (ex Defense Minister) re the Dominion’s offer of pre vetted German engineering techs that were surplus to their needs. Regular DC4 Flights via Vancouver, San Francisco, Honolulu and Nadi to Melbourne would provide adequate security as opposed to a long crowded sea voyage in which the necessary discretion would be impossible to guarantee. On the upside, all such passengers would have been made to conform with tight US Immigration laws by completing departure cards in Honolulu before leaving US air space. Fortunately these records are retained and accessable to any Keane researcher of ample means.

  1190. Peter Davidson on July 11, 2021 at 4:34 pm said:

    JS, There’s 11,375 pages of airline Departure records for Honolulu
    https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2427245
    Only a few named Keane. None of which I think are contenders for SM.
    There’s a Gerald Keane in the right age bracket but he’s flying to Seattle, not Australia. Still, it’s a nice collection. I just need a name to search, and we don’t really know what SM’s name really is

  1191. Peter Davidson on July 11, 2021 at 4:48 pm said:

    https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-992F-B4WJ?i=380&cc=2427245&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQKF7-59XN

    This page of passengers on a flight from Auckland will interest Brian Deveson. Line 9, and the following lines. These appear to be Charles Mickelson/Mikkelsen/Lund’s relatives whom he stayed with in Wellington. There’s a bunch all sharing the same address with different surnames. I wonder if his former fiancee is one of them?

  1192. Peterb on July 11, 2021 at 9:12 pm said:

    Rubbish.

  1193. milongal on July 11, 2021 at 9:24 pm said:

    If we have the power to delay the “suicide slip” being released, why do we release it at all? If we are trying to cover things up, why does the book itself (complete with suspicious scribblings) get found?

    There’s 2 problems I have with a deliberate coverup. Firstly there’s a lot of “evidence” that really only serves to keep the case interesting – something you want to avoid if you’re trying to cover things up. Secondly Hanlon’s Razor (something along the lines of don’t blame malice when you can blame incompetence).

    On the latter point (as I think I’ve flagged before) the incompetence may be organisational rather than individual. On day one the coppers simply think they’re dealing with a mundane death that will resolve itself. It isn’t until later (when they still haven’t identified him) that they start investigating – but by this point they’ve lost their crime scene and have probably mishandled a whole heap of evidence (despite what other people have claimed, I do not for a moment believe that every dead body is treated as a crime scene). Haven’t got the dates in front of me, but from memory Leane isn’t engaged until about 6th Jan. So anything he says about the crime scene (“there was a syringe nearby” (not sure if it made the cut or whether it was in the interview notes for Littlemore)) is horse sh!t. If anything, Littlemore’s doco seems to me to highlight personalities who are trying to make a story for the camera – Leane is clearly thrilled to be called as an expert, and Brown’s deliberate attempts to be the “matter of fact” copper are overdone. Even Lawson’s (“We’re not going there”) and Boxall’s (“It’s a melodramatic thesis”) caginess reek more of trying to make a good story rather than retell the facts. The question, then, is whether this is a whole bunch of inadvertently exaggerating story-tellers (“I once caught a fish that was this big”), or whether Littlemore is being puppeteer and directing the narrative to suit Ruffles’ theories.

    I’m sure I’ve said it a million (may not actually be a million) times before – the cover up conspiracy requires us to simultaneously believe there were puppeteers with enough clout to steer the conversation a particular way but that those same agents didn’t have enough clout to suppress evidence that would only attract unwanted scrutiny and speculation.
    Surely if you’re covering stuff up then you want to propagate a particular narrative. This starts by planting evidence that will allow others to work toward your narrative, and then you introduce ideas and/or other evidence to steer them toward the story you’re telling.

    So why muddy the water with Henley and Glenelg tickets? Why introduce the TS slip (it just reinvigorates a mystery around an unidentified body)? If the TS slip was introduced to point to suicide, why introduce the Rubaiyat itself (how easy it would be to never find such a book – and simply assert it’s probably at Wingfield by now)? Having introduced the Rubaiyat, why not suppress the strange acrostic and the phone number (attracting so much attention not only about those who already had some interest in the case, but flagging a challenge to an even broader audience)? Having talked to Jess, why publicly bring Boxall into it (surely by this time at least we must be at a level within the puppet-master’s influence)?
    It seems when we start to ask these questions, one of the common responses relates to dictating the narrative exactly as we have seen it play out – that the authorities not only predicted/directed that SM remains unidentified, but that they managed to second guess every speculation around the case that has occurred – not only in 1948, but at every point up to the present.

  1194. john sanders on July 12, 2021 at 7:22 am said:

    PD. You didn’t get the guist of my advice to Peteb the nazi hunter. I’m certainly not interested in anyone named Keane flying out of Hawaii, such info is more likely to concern ‘the dude’ who still is of course. I’d be looking for uppity kraut names like Wernher Von Braun or Martin Borman for instance. Peteb’s hot list contained one name that I did take a fancy to which was Freidrich, surname of a mystery man from Mt. Davies, but if he was real that would change modern Australian criminal history somewhat. By the way your Ancestry link sucks, being pay as you go and not within my budget; whatsmore Peteb reckons it’s full of shit for some reason.

  1195. Peteb on July 12, 2021 at 7:34 am said:

    Milongal: pretend I’m Tom Cruise and ‘Show me the Book!’

  1196. john sanders on July 12, 2021 at 8:13 am said:

    milongal: For some weird reason people we know, one or two in particular, feel that Leane had deliberately set out to deprive the newspapers and it’s readership of minute by minute updates on results of his inquiries. This could possibly have given the game away to a dangerous assailant on the loose or others involved who be laying low, such unknowns being what any competent detective would need to be allert to. I could never understand Peteb’s goings on about Det. Leane’s witholding information on finding of the TS slip, as if somehow such knowledge was meant to have been realeased immediately for public consumption. I think
    the man did the responsible thing by releasing sufficient enough detail to keep the punters satisfied, even gain information by doing so, but not at the risk of loosing the iniative.

  1197. Peteb on July 13, 2021 at 3:16 am said:

    Sanders: the rubbish comment was meant for your contribution. Pete Davo on the other hand has my utmost respect

  1198. john sanders on July 13, 2021 at 6:14 am said:

    Quite to the contrary rain man, for I beg to disagree. Fair enough I’ll own to your ‘verbose’ claim, but bare in mind I’m only a contributor having my rightful say on a forum that, unkike yours is open to all with opinion to share with no fear of the dreaded shafting or shut out. So unlike that offered by a certain plagiarist host we all know and distrust, whose main agenda is to peddle reconstituted dedicated original efforts of others, thereby belaying need for personal input apart from self engrandising boasts. Sole purpose of this being to convince a most undiscerning readership that, the latest unlikely subject for discussion (one way) be the ‘big SM gamechanger’. How many times have we witnessed such a hardly captivating performance, one which invariably runs short on promise, then next day it’s back to the ubiquitous striped duds, no matches, Jestyn’s phone number, Sgt. Leane’s incompetence and continual delays on press releases to which we’re so used. It’ll be as if the great per war nazi invasion of Adelaide was another’s nutty idea..which it was, right GC?

  1199. john sanders on July 13, 2021 at 7:14 am said:

    Jack Reicher: I trust that you’ve checked out your nominated ROK authorities, vis. SSchwarzburg and Kaiser-lian to confirm their loyal credentials. The names remind me of certain alien faciast/nazi pre fifth columnists that I heard went to S.A. in the late twenties. Did you hear that your pre war gentile fritz ‘polm’ fancier much prefered Fitzgerald’s English translation to either the German or Persian version. Just so’s when they marched on Paris in ’40 quoting eg., verse 70’s indeed indeed the frogs thought it was the poms coming to their long promised relief indeed.

  1200. john sanders on July 13, 2021 at 7:58 am said:

    That’s the Kerrie Bowes we all love to loath and lambaste, been missing our old tit for tat stand offs of olde. F’rinstance John Sanders the Vietnam era cowardly battlefield deserter, then countering retorts re good old Curly Bowes’ unofficial DFC (duck for cover) award or uncle Colin Bowes’ post war Jap free milk runs over once contested islands in his converted Mitchell or C47 gooney bird. Fine old times for kith & kin plus all the silverware one could wish for from a greatful nation…

  1201. Peteb on July 13, 2021 at 7:59 am said:

    Sanders… Love to stop and chat old mate, but you carry on like a couple of sheilas in a shop.

  1202. john sanders on July 16, 2021 at 6:54 am said:

    Peteb: speaking of sheilas, I’m trying to chase down Const. Noblet, the dickless tracey who rang taxidedermist lawson second week of June, ’49 regarding disposal of the ‘original body’. It was the only mention ever of this woman officer? being connected to the case, though if she’d been part of the Leane Team, she could have attended to the female ID witnesses including the two ‘Thompson’ ladies. In Paul’s diary there’s also mention of Mr. NBT who, along with Dr. Cleland inspected the finished bust. Appears that this must have been ex Det. Spt. J.E. Noblet of Port Adelaide, an old gent of the Dr’s vintage, though reason for his presence draws a blank. We do know that he was once dressed down scathingly by a Coroner for neglect in not properly recording the movements of dead remains between place of discovery to point of delivery at the charnel house. There was another Noblet mentioned on the SM case though he was a ranker, possibly of the same original Mick family, many of whom joined the filth…That enough carrying on for you pal.

  1203. john sanders on July 16, 2021 at 7:37 am said:

    Bowes: Detective A/Sgt. R.L Leane “senior administrative background..” If you got that from Feltus, than it’s totally in keeping with expectations. You’d make a good combination for a follow up novel, based solely on fiction which is your forte of course. In the real world it is highly likely that upon SM inquiries being wound up, your man was relegated back to senior constable, staying at that rank until getting his third stripe in ’52 where he remained until age retirement in ’62….Yes I know that Gerry Feltus who joined the cops in ’64, mentioned working with Lional Leane and Ron Thomas on the job which I guess you will have no problems with, but that be your creative accounting edge right?

  1204. D.N.O'Donovan on July 16, 2021 at 12:44 pm said:

    Peteb,
    Good lord, I didn’t know anyone in Australia still used the Irish ‘sheila’. I’ve not heard it since the last Chips Rafferty film was re-run on late night t.v. Do people in your part of the country still say ‘fair dinkum’ and ‘cobber’ too? I don’t intend sarcasm – I’m genuinely fascinated to discover linguistic relics.

  1205. john sanders on July 16, 2021 at 12:53 pm said:

    Peteb: That was a pretty definate “yes” to your buddy Gordon who says Brown was adamant that the slip was a perfect fit for the Freeman ROK. No need to ask where that dubious claim first surfaced. Seems that it was from GC’s brief association with Derek Abbott’s old face book page club, so on that basis you feel that we can vouch for it’s validity right?. Far as I’m aware the book came to light a month after Brown had been reassigned, so if Leane’s old partner made such an assertion it must be mildly questionable on that basis surely.

  1206. Peteb on July 16, 2021 at 10:30 pm said:

    Diane O D .. We are a sophisticated race of people, rarely given over to the old ways and expressions you’re expressing an interest in, however when confronted by someone in dire need of a fat lip our instinct is to get into the face of the offender and remind him in terms common enough for him to understand that his immediate presence is unwanted. In this case a Mr John Sanders, who follows me around like a bitch in heat as you have no doubt observed. It’s part and parcel of this blogging game as you know to have such infatuated individuals dogging your footsteps, and I don’t dispute that this behaviour is caused by a general aimlessness, or lack of purpose. That said, if I was ever to run into the man in a more convivial place, say the public bar of an east Sydney hotel in 1964, I’d be standing with my back to the wall. Fair dinkum.

  1207. john sanders on July 17, 2021 at 2:31 am said:

    Diane: depends somewhat on what social standing modern Australians wish to see themselves portrayed or represented upon the world stage. Ausdie blokes and sheilas were once content to share their good fortune with the flocks of sheep and free range chooks that provided all their needs for survival. They perceived that less privilaged counterparts across the seas both awed and reveared them for their adaptiveness under great adversity, not for their free and easy manner of speech. Long gone is ‘the you beaut lucky bloody country’ where under educated Dad & Dave types yokels tamed the land, revered by sheilas who played their role as home keepers, nurses, lovers and mothers, both equally proficient in use of coloquial Australi-aise or strine for general lines of communication and terms of endearment. Nowdays a greater than thou, toffee nosed type set that embodies a bland impersonal manner defined by it’s stuffy outdated Kings English guide lines, competes for favour with good old revised Anzac cobber slang with the undecided punters. Points for against in my opinion, but then fortunately, I no longer have to choose between the two forms of expression thank Huey!

  1208. john sanders on July 17, 2021 at 3:22 am said:

    ….actually Dianne, I’m almost certain that I once came across your own use of an archaic nonsence word in a long forgotten SM thread comment. I was even more dumfounded to pick you up using the very same awful word again soon after, one presumably picked up in childhood oblivion and never rescinded for reasons best known to thee. I might add, respectfully of course, that I would never deign use of such an ineloquent, undignified non dictionary? word to describe God’s ‘creatures’ of the wild in collective terms.

  1209. john sanders on July 17, 2021 at 6:42 am said:

    Dianne: just as well I took the initiative to intervene on Peteb’s behalf in answer to your explicit, politely phrased question on out moded colonial linguistic relics. Most smart SM punters know from experience not to expect any sort of even half witted response from our clown prince, for Bozo (answers to that) seems to be intellectually incapable and/or too arrogantly pig headed to contemplate simple tasks like polite reciprical exchange, especially with those he has no respect for. From his reluctant recent hollow exchange with you, I get the feeling that our fiend may prefer to deal with those, once coloquially labelled ‘poofters and urgers’ as opposed to well spoken ladies of a certain age…’any port in a southerly buster’ as old time fishos would insist, right?

  1210. john sanders on July 17, 2021 at 9:58 am said:

    Nick: Guess you’ve checked already and decided to let it go. I’m not on about petty sock puppet barbs from Cramer and, of all people Clive/Turner/Walker/Lawson but, the one and only laughing clown puppet who put his unsocked goofy foot in it yet again. Of course most half allert sports fans could have told old Bozo that ‘the Poms did not play a series against Australia, either union or League in 2012, so the 10 quid bet is a mute point. They next played three Rugger tests in ’13 though with your lads winning the series 2/1 so there’s no gains to be made anyway he tries to shield the blatant fib, besides this old spoiler is always onto his lurks…Pull it down mate, you’re looking like a not so spruce goose.

  1211. john sanders on July 17, 2021 at 1:03 pm said:

    D.N. O’Donovan: Here’s one that many an old Sheila from the bush new by heart from the war years 1914-18. Immortalised in C. J. Denis’ Australaise from Songs of the Sentimental Bloke circa 1909/15. Seems your mob were back in blighty when it got special mention acclaim in the Anthem song quest. We had so much pride in our new Commonwealth, rough edges and all.

    Fellers of Australiar, blokes an’ coves an’ coots, Shift yer lazy carcases, move yer flam’n boots. Gird yer blasted loins up, get yer bloody gun, See the nameless enermy and watch the bastards run.

  1212. Peteb on July 17, 2021 at 10:27 pm said:

    Priceless … now we’ve got Sanders rooting around in a rabbit hole where no rabbits are to be found.

  1213. john sanders on July 18, 2021 at 6:08 am said:

    Diane: you can believe what y’man says for once. Since first becoming allert to the fellow’s churlish lack of manners and downright evil disposition I made up my mind to keep him under constant scrutiny and sticking close for any chance to catch the miscreant out at his own game. Just like his proverbial bitch on heat, right flank rear and ready to ream the nameless sob right up the the ring at first opportunity. Over time the the reamings have been more or less effective in reducing incidence of attempted fraud eg. yesterday’s attempt to defraud our moderator, though same can’t be said for the endless libal put out to discredit opponents. Almost goes without saying that those amongst us who have no use for pride and no consciense, also bare no responsibilty or remorse for their anti social behaviour. Only defence is for old diggers to be vigilant and never give bums like Bowes or Cramer an even break, in other words strike hard and strike deep.

  1214. john sanders on July 18, 2021 at 8:37 am said:

    [verbiage deleted] Case in point being a recent espionage thread which gives us a speel and a pretty picture of an all Australian rubaiyat publication of pre WW2 vintage, thoughtfully over marked in Cramer red as key to the relevant passage. I’ve just been going through the author’s credentials which I found rather impressive, only problem being I needed time to research correct Christian names (Edgar Allan) which of course did not tally with that provided by y’man. It’s only fair that Gordon be given a chance to correct two minor glitzs in his post prior to giving fuller details of book’s publication….if anyone be at all interested.

  1215. john sanders on July 19, 2021 at 12:05 am said:

    Sanders did in fact ferret out one rabbit, Peter; a particularly irksome rabit old buck with myxamotosis that he euthanised on the spot with extreme prejudice.

  1216. D.N. O'Donovan on July 19, 2021 at 8:03 am said:

    PeterB – I thought so. I lived in Australia for decades and never heard the words ‘shiela’ or ‘cobber’ spoken except in fake Aussie tourist advertisements or old, old films. First time in my life I was ever addressed as ‘mate’ was, I think, in some comment left here on Nick’s site.
    I have heard men call each other ‘mate’ but it only seems to happen when, if they didn’t, they might come to blows. Or am I misreading those situations?

  1217. milongal on July 19, 2021 at 8:15 pm said:

    Peter Rabbit had myxomatosis????

  1218. john sanders on July 19, 2021 at 10:23 pm said:

    Diane: Horses for courses mate. I lived in Australia many years too and just about everyone including the sheilas used the words of which you deny familiarity. I do recall once or twice hearing city dwellers copying Americanisms like ‘critters’ for God’s creatures and the like, but that’s the smoke folk for you. When it comes to Sydney or the bush, I’ll take back o’ Burke and Booligal any day cobber.

  1219. Peteb on July 19, 2021 at 10:53 pm said:

    D.N. O’D … Two instances
    A man walks into a crowded bar, spots a friend, walks over and sez ‘G’day mate, howyezgoin, orrite ?’
    Same man spots another drinker staring at him and sez ‘What the f… are you looking’ at, mate?’
    There you have it …

  1220. Bruce on July 20, 2021 at 2:41 am said:

    lol – reminds me of a Brit tabloid quote from ‘92 that described Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating’s hands-on (!) escort of Her Majesty to a guest reception as like “leading a sheila to the sheep dip.”

  1221. john sanders on July 20, 2021 at 6:52 am said:

    milongal: Too right me old china, myxo plus rabies. Peter Bunny went and got bit by an RTA bug or maybe one of Diane D. O’Donovan’s God awful critters.

  1222. Peteb on July 20, 2021 at 7:32 am said:

    and then …
    The starer says, ‘sorry mate,’
    And our man’s response is, Don’t f….en call me mate, mate, orrite?’

  1223. Peteb on July 20, 2021 at 9:21 am said:

    So, as you can see, D.O’D .. We know how to deal with pretenders, is’nt that right John Sanders, old mate?

  1224. D.N.O'Donovan on July 20, 2021 at 9:33 am said:

    PeterB- thank you. So funny.
    It is true that I spent most of my time, when not out on a dig, in places like universities and museums where, just as in England, the dialect is different. ‘critters’ is an archaic English form, preserved in America – or so I’m told. I liked it. Almost onomatapoetic and so adopted it.
    What I most loved about talking with locals in the rural towns of the east coast in Australia was that (a) the older and more distant from towns, the more civilized the ‘bushie blokes’ tended to be and (b) their detestation of people who expect to be deferred to not for personal character or accomplishments, but because some long dead forbear did something-or-other. And yes, everyone gasped and/or cringed at Keating’s behaviour – but what can you expect of a man who collects clocks?

  1225. john sanders on July 22, 2021 at 11:18 pm said:

    Diane: I Never was a Keating fan but, Peteb’s reference to y’man being a pretender is akin to the pot calling the kettle black or a skunk saying the stump stunk, not t’other way around. In that Paul Keating predicated on Malaysias PM Mahathir becoming a recalcitrant and Australia a potential banana republic. Any old corn stalker colonial politician who can walk with ‘Queens’ yet keep the common touch, or give you the time of day to boot, surely ain’t no pretender I kid you not. PS: I collect clocks too, but only French of the carriage variety and particularly very fine Jappy’s.

  1226. Peter Davidson on July 23, 2021 at 5:02 pm said:

    John, you remind me of my mum’s cousin, Jim Passfield, B Coy 6 RAR 1969. 1 legged Cranky bastard, stayed in the Army and retired as a WO2, with a body full of shrapnel, because “the Army owed it to him”, as “he couldn’t do anything else with 1 leg and body full of metal”. His heart gave out almost 3 years ago. Miss the old bugger.

  1227. john sanders on July 23, 2021 at 11:41 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: I seem to recall the name from my time at six, though possibly only by reputation. Seems to have been a chip off the old block with his UK born dad attempting escape from at least a half dozen stalags in ww2 and getting an MM for his efforts. Good on them and pity that their breed are extinct.

  1228. john sanders on July 25, 2021 at 1:58 pm said:

    Peteb: J.B. Cleland, when describing the position of the body, stated in part that
    ” ….it would depend on how much his head was supported, it may have been only slightly supported, perhaps no more than one’s head is supported on a pillow”. It appears from such concise wording under Oath that your set piece paraphrasing of said witness is conveniently at odds with what he intended his words to mean. No wonder folks get confused about SM’s lividity state and the like when they take heed of deliberately misrepresented Sworn evidence laid out before a Coronor’s inquest.

  1229. john sanders on July 26, 2021 at 5:51 am said:

    “Interesting word pillow” says Tbt’s Peteb, but note he doesn’t elaborate. Perhaps it’s due to the fact that he’s reminded of have bitten into the odd pillow himself and more often than he cares to let on. Then again SM was found staring skywards which of course could add lustful connotations to old Bozo’s interesting choice of words.

  1230. Peteb on July 26, 2021 at 8:06 am said:

    Thanks for letting this troll-bait through, Nick. All bets are now off.

  1231. john sanders on July 26, 2021 at 12:51 pm said:

    Crikies Nick, looks like the usual seasons greatings from his nibs are off this year. But at least you’ll have saved ten nicker; footy tests between Oz and the Poms being yet another non event just like 2012. Poor feller can’t win a trick it seems.

  1232. misca on July 27, 2021 at 3:48 am said:

    So nice to drop in and read…lovely sharing of ideas here!

    From what is now the second stupidest place on earth to what is (without question, the first) aloha (the third)!

  1233. john sanders on July 27, 2021 at 12:31 pm said:

    misca: Always happy to have you swing by, if only occasionally. Don’t know if you got any responce re your query on Hellmut Hendon lodged with Tbt., but we’re flat out with our SM updates as usual over here as you’ll surely appreciate. Seems he finally gave up the ghost on a visit in ’82 to Fiji of all places, this according to Peter Davidson our reliable roving Geni authority, which you can rest assured is Gospel.

  1234. milongal on July 27, 2021 at 10:08 pm said:

    I notice there’s a little interest about the dugouts again. In the past I’ve flagged that there’s very few references to dugouts, other than a games arcade at Glenelg and a Wesley/Methodist church at Brighton.
    Broadening the search terms it seems it was reasonably common for people to have dugouts on their property (almost like a Granny Flat). We’d sort of imagined them to be some feature on the beach – with a fairly literal interpretation of “dugout”, but I wonder whether it was also used to refer to more shed-like structures or fishing shacks that were minimally sunken (if at all) (e.g. the Wesley one seems to be referred to as a dugout more for the fact that it wasn’t really a proper building (and had a boat as a roof) than that it was necessarily dug into the ground at all).
    So then we might consider whether it’s a feature of the beach at all, or a feature of the houses on or near the Esplanade (either a row of houses with dugouts in the yard, or a row of little shack-like houses). Aside from everything else, it’s important to remember that beaches (or certainly SA beaches) have 2 types of sand texture – compressed damp sand (in places that regularly get wet by the tide) and soft dry sand (in places that are rarely submerged). Neither of these surfaces would lend themselves to make very effective dugouts (assuming the point of a dugout is to save on material). The wetter sand would hold shape reasonably well – but is presumably in a position where it’s not suitable to build (because you don’t want to be under water) and the dry sand has zero structural ability (so you’d need timber or something to hold the sand out). I also want to point to (another rant I’ve often had) about the narrowness of the beach South of Glenelg. There simply wouldn’t be many places where you could have such structures – even if the sand itself wasn’t problematic.
    I think when we’re looking for dugouts, we shouldn’t be focussing on sand that you might dig on the beach, but rather structures along the foreshore and its surrounds.

    That said….it does also occur to me that life savers or sailing clubs may have had some sort of beach structures that are partly submerged by sound and referred to as dugouts – but the lack of references to such structures seems to discount this idea.

    so 1937, 1941, 1944 has the a few ads like:
    “…unique card room (a dug-out den in the garden surmounted by a rockerry….”
    “At Glenelg……trim garden, dugout…..”
    (many of these ads use “surmounted by rockery” but not all have address – so it’s possible it’s the same property being sold every few years – or being on the market for a long time because it sounds like a top end of town type)

    As well as ads looking for housing in 1945:
    “Wanted by young couple with child 12 months, flat, rooms, dugout or anything….”

    There is, however, also this (from 1943):
    “Alfred Henry Bellman, of no fixed place of abode, was sentenced in the Brighton Court today to 14 days imprisonment for having had insufficient lawful means of support. It was stated that he had been living in a dugout on the beach”

    I can’t remember which device my Feltus book is on so I can’t look up whether the dugouts not being on the beach would make much sense. It does seem to me a touch odd that they’re mentioned as though someone from that area would immediately know what was being referred to – yet it’s hard to find a reference. IIRC it was the 1959 “witness” – so there’s also a possibility that it describes old things using current landmarks – that is, that the dugouts existed in the 1950s and are used a s a reference point by the witness, even though they weren’t actually there in 1948 (although I can’t find such a reference either).

  1235. john sanders on July 28, 2021 at 3:43 am said:

    milongal: could the beach ‘dugouts’ equate to no frills granny flats fitted out for shared temporary accommodation, also known as diggings or digs in latter day jargon…My own long held view on best guess location for the Somerton beach dugouts of circa. 1948, based on pure logics, must have been well south of Collen Terrace where the sea wall terminated and John Evans park towards the deserted Hove Dunes region. This would be near Mena Home orphanage where in later years, Det. Len Brown had Dr. Doug Hendrickson conducting extensive digs for the then missing Beaumont kiddies.

  1236. Tammy Shud on July 28, 2021 at 10:22 pm said:

    The reason the smarter-than-Andy-Baader avatar raised this originally, IIRC, is that the current lead copper on Norway’s ‘Isdal Woman’ case has supposedly done some research and finds that there are no known cases of body deposition involving more than 75 metres of manual carrying. This might therefore be an interesting benchmark to apply to the scenario.

  1237. john sanders on July 29, 2021 at 12:38 pm said:

    Tammy Shud: Not saying that I’m into the bloke seen carrying his drunken mate along the beachfront towards Alvington steps, but your 75 metre ‘Isdal woman’ concept does make sense re maximum distance. For example Ferris street beach access was used exclusively by strappers excercising their horses because it provided the only access point without having to negotiate their steeds down a difficult stairway from The Boadway, allbeit closer to all the stables located in that street. In my rough estimation the well known Ferris St. bridal pathway off Sth Esplinade would have to have been roughly fifty metres distance and thereby a more logical point of entry for someone with local knowledge intent on lugging a dead weight down from above and on a further short distance to the dump site.

  1238. Byron Deveson on July 29, 2021 at 8:40 pm said:

    JS, from memory there are aerial photos of the beach taken about 1937-38 somewhere in the archives. These should show the dugouts.

  1239. milongal on July 30, 2021 at 3:53 am said:

    @JS: I think that was exact;y the page I was on – i.e. that there was a cluster of houses with dugouts/diggings as opposed to some feature on the beach.

  1240. john sanders on July 30, 2021 at 7:01 am said:

    BD: Actually I’m not the least bit interested in Tbt’s very latest go around on GF’s fabled dugouts and it’s relevance to SM. Others with an interest may like to chase up your helpfull advise re availability of period Glenelg beach photos which are pretty easy to find on line.

  1241. milongal on July 31, 2021 at 3:15 am said:

    At the risk of being labelled a naysayer (oh never mind, too late) the bit that a lot of people seem to miss is the nuanced balance between a mundane death and a subsequent inquiry when it turns out it is not mundane.
    Statements like “I searched the clothing” are boiler plate in a testimony but have no bearing on actual fact.
    Imagine there’s a checklist of all the things that should be done, but (as in any profession) things go off script a bit when you’ve presumed the result. The coppers on 1th Dec expected the body would go to the morgue, be dismissed as a non-suspicious death and be claimed by relatives.
    At what point do they think “Shyte, this is not normal, we’d better go back and work through this properly” (I couldn’t give you an exact time, but in any case too late). Their later statements are then attempts to show due process _even if it didn’t happen_ and it doesn’t make too much sense to read too much into the intricacies and inconsistencies.
    I think I’ve mentioned before that in a previous capacity I attended a search warrant with various groups including SAPol. Aside from an amusing attempt to make other agencies resbonsible for a find (less paperwork) and a whole bunch of things I had a problem with (not in terms of ethics, but in terms of thoroughness and critical thinking) the one thing I did notice is that (if we read the statements) one person found a lot of things and lots of people had statements saying “At about (apparently “about” is important so people don’t try to disprove specifics) I attended the premises at *redacted*. I found nothing.”
    What a coinky dink – one person finds everything (I’ll leave you to speculate why). The statements are not descriptions of fact, they are simplified versions of what happened with an attempt to gloss over any mistakes and gaps in process.

  1242. john sanders on July 31, 2021 at 9:45 am said:

    Covering up for omitting to report some easily overlooked item connected to a possible crime or, incorrectly detailing what may later prove to be a key piece of corroborating evidence in a search context is a skill well known to CIB case officers. This can simply be achieved by placing blame for such on another’s incompetence, preferably the first uniformed officer in attendance at a potential crime scene who, not being trained specifically for it, might be excused afterall. Enter Constable John Moss of Brighton police, soon to be seconded to Henley Beach station where plain clothes officers are always on call and the chances of re-offending be slim.

  1243. john sanders on August 1, 2021 at 3:18 am said:

    Slow Sunday in lockdown land VN. For what it’s worth back in the day when our Jestyn was said to be domiciled at 90A Mosley St. Glenelg, younger sister Jean Carr and hubby Norm were camped in Brenda Tce. Largs Nth. no more that 100 yards from the Mangnosons across the way in Maggarey St. Norm Carr had worked as crew on a Kangaroo Is. cargo steamer and later third mate in the merchant navy serving in Borneo WW2. He claims to have been born in both GB and Morgan on the Murray where SM suspect Bob Walsh was shacked up with Liz Thompson (nee Salotti) before he went missing; then we have Keith Mang. and his Dad John also working out around Morgan pre war. It’s a small world if you want it to be eh?…

  1244. john sanders on August 2, 2021 at 12:40 am said:

    Correction is in order in that the Carrs may not have moved to Brenda Tce. til later in the fifties presumably while Norm was still a merchant marine with the Adelaide steamship Co. His pre war military papers indicate that he was at 568 Military Rd., Largs Nth., opposite 549 where Keith Mang had gone to buy firewood with Clive, before the pair were reported missing mid ’49. That area would have still been pretty sparsely settled in that early post war period and it’s on the cards the Carrs and Mangnosons were casually aquainted at least.

  1245. Peter Davidson on August 2, 2021 at 4:24 pm said:

    JS. I need help with confirming service history for my wife’s Deceased uncle. Platcher, Frederick – service number 552530 according to the Exmouth RSL Sub-Branch. He told me a lot of stories when he used to ring up here when he got my wife’s number mixed up with his sister’s. There was one story that was so outlandish, that it’s either dead set true or utter make believe which has had significant impact upon what scenarios I consider are possible or even probable in the Somerton Case. Anyway, he managed to obviously convince at least one person that was interviewed by the ABC whom alluded to these stories, however I’ve found nothing else to back up what he told me, which he only ever mentioned whilst intoxicated.
    Here’s the ABC radio program that includes the interview where somone mentions his insertions into Laos and Vietnam to arrest and extract turn coat miscreant gun runners, but doesn’t mention the assassination/execution of those that refused to surrender which Fred talked to me about. Since there is nothing that I’ve ever found in any of the Provost Case Files to back up one iota of Fred’s claims, let alone that he was ever deployed in Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia on behalf of the Provost Marshall for a fortnight at a time directly from Holdsworthy with nothing more than a gun, a fortnight’s rations a picture of the wanted man, a radio to call in a pick up and a camera to take a picture of the dead body in the absence of an arrest. It beggars belief, but if it’s at all true, then all his stories will make the TV character of Callan a sissy by comparison, and the nature & extent of covert action and the withholding of the true facts surrounding some deaths somewhat beyond the realm of what tinfoil hat nutmegs even imagine I suppose. And of course this has implications about what might be possible in the Somerton Case.
    Anyhow is there anyway to confirm anything, since he’s not even on a nominal roll?
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/people/fred-platcher-(exmouth)/8928138

  1246. john sanders on August 3, 2021 at 12:20 am said:

    Peter: Regarding uncle Fred 50/13 of Madras who apparently immigrated with his family whilst still a student in 1969. Only evidehce of army service I can see after a most cursory scan of usual trapchecks, arise from a car accident in ’82 at Canley Vale and subsequent million dollar (reduced on appeal) injury award. At the time he was apparently a non com at a Quarter Master’s store at Holdsworthy military depot, unmarried and obviously partial to boozing whilst off duty. His name does not come up on the Australian military imposter’s register which is pretty thorough in chasing down Vietnam era wannabes, but the same storyline of dangerous missions of derring do eg. incursions into Laos to hunt down deserters gone tropo ala ‘Apocolypse’ Now or ‘Heart of Darkness’ is rather par for the course. I’ll listen to the ABC interview when I get the chance and get back if anything worth pursuing stands out.

  1247. john sanders on August 3, 2021 at 2:51 am said:

    PD: From what I hear from Platcher’s mates, he was a man who lived a sin free life, a good Samaritan, a true friend and supporter of many a charitable cause eg., sick elderly & disabled, disadvantaged youth, plus the poor and downtrodden including the boozers, fisherfolk and other feckless sandgropers in his sozzled community. Old Fed was not such a bad Chinee cook either (online recipees) so I’m thinking he may have done a course during his six year military inlistment from 1976/7 thriugh ’82, possibly during a stint in Singapore before his drink fuelled accident. Feller had quite a weird sort of accent, almost central European to my ear and nothing close to his assumed birth tongue of Hindi. Best I can do mate, hope it helps.

  1248. milongal on August 3, 2021 at 6:03 am said:

    I’m sure you’ve seen it, but NAA has something on him from Dept of Immigration in Perth.
    Not sure date range (it’s not clear)
    Contents dates
    01 Jan 1928 –
    Accumulation dates
    01 Jan 1955 –
    Contents date range
    1978 – 1978

    I’m guessing it dates to ’28, was sent to the archive about ’55 and maybe it automatically declassified in ’78 (or something?)

    Anyways – there’s obviously something there – not that it relates to his military service

  1249. Peter Davidson on August 3, 2021 at 6:06 am said:

    Correction. Fred wasn’t given a radio, just a date, time and place to rendezvous with a helicopter. He missed one such rendezvous and had to escort his prisoner through the jungle to the nearest allied base which happened to be American, where they both came under fire because apparently the Americans used passwords. Took him a long while to convince them to stop shooting and let them in, or so the story went.

  1250. john sanders on August 3, 2021 at 9:04 am said:

    I think if uncle Fred was into those sort of sanctioned black ops. in Laos post ’75, his insertions could only have been by STOL or a Bell from Thailand, not a C130 from the MCE gaol at Holdsworthy NSW, a day of Cs plus read and burn orders with memorised map locstats etc. Sounds like one of the 80s Rambo First blood films where Sly Stallone must rescue POW’s from the dastardly Viet Cong from a camp on the Lao border. Closest I can get is where a couple of gung ho fellas known to me, named Barry who were often strangly recalled to HQ from the bush and rumoured to have been sent in to Laos doing who knows what with friendly minority tribesmen. Their experience as linguists in Malaya during the early sixties meant they could communicate well enough with related Lao tribal groups, hence their being chosen. To my knowledge they never let on what they did or didn’t do, but I’m thankful for lack of language skills, at a time and place when us cowards had to be mindful not to boast any sort of education that could be used against us.

  1251. Peter Davidson on August 3, 2021 at 5:05 pm said:

    Thanks JS.
    Enough to clear up the booze fuelled stories. Most likely derived from those movies if he never left the quartermaster store.
    Regards PD

  1252. john sanders on August 9, 2021 at 7:38 am said:

    Peteb: How about we compare your snide personally targeted ‘with my back to the wall in a Sydney pub in ’64 knowing Sanders was about’ post of 16th July last as apposed to my own non explicit and jestful ‘pillow talk’ response of 26th instant which got a lot of laughs from lots of folks….Best to leave Curly and uncle Colin Bowes rest in peace, their respective non combatant service records having no baring at all on your pitiful current gripes. Also If I were any sort if honest lawyer I wouldn’t take on something so spiteful, childish and petty for risk of being laughed out of court with costs, as neither Pelling nor I could possibly have case to answer worthy of their efforts. PS: I’m most greatful that our moderator has not seen any reason to delete the so called defamatory material, nor it’s homophobic off colour precursor with the Peter Bowes proud seal of approval.

  1253. Tammy Shud on August 9, 2021 at 12:57 pm said:

    Pete, Sanders.

    This is schoolboy stuff, you know. It’s no surprise the rest of the world laughs at the whole Australian machismo act as something so obviously insecure and seeking to conceal. The fact that grown men can get a rise out of each other (pun very much intended) with the word “poofter” is absurd in the 21st century. What are you thinking!?

  1254. john sanders on August 9, 2021 at 1:25 pm said:

    At the risk of being labelled a spoiling mofo (so be it), my take on the bard’s words ‘Lest We Forget’, should only apply to those brave men and women who fell with their faces to the foe or at the very least actually went forth to face the foe in times of conflict and luckily lived to grow old ljust as the old Aussie/Kiwi (Anzac) Ode of Remembrance suggests. It should not apply to those who, despite their just service credentials never actually fired a shot in anger. Truth be known those borrowed and oft misinterpretted strains from Rudyard Kipling’s (like him or loath him) immortal Recessional Hymn, were actually meant as plea to put an end to wars waged solely for the sake of power and glory at any cost.

  1255. Tammy Shud: it should be so far beneath all of us that you’d need the James Webb Space Telescope to see it (and then only if you squint really hard).

  1256. john sanders on August 9, 2021 at 6:00 pm said:

    Tammy: You used the word p—–r to accentuate the same word uttered by your fiend Peteb to accuse me of a like utterance which was a lie…Use of such words is rightly frowned upon in a deogitory manner these days and should not be at all condoned. I never did make such utterance if you’d care to check back on my in jest ‘pillow talk’ post. Next time you feel like chastising this simple old schoolboy make sure of your facts first b—h…OK !!!!!

  1257. John Sanders: I feel quite sad that someone can become so consumed with rage over a perceived slight (despite having themselves spent years dishing actual insults out left, right and centre) that they leave themselves looking so utterly foolish.

    But I suspect I may now be the only person who has an ounce of sympathy.

  1258. Tammy Shud on August 9, 2021 at 6:40 pm said:

    Sanders, I’m not your mum trying to get to the bottom of some fraternal playpen spat. I don’t care what you two Aussie snowflakes actually said verbatim. It’s beyond pathetic. Two geriatric dinosaurs trying to land punches from behind their walking aids is not my idea of a cause worth taking sides on.

    You know what the biggest problem with all this is? You both make Cramer’s cod-psychiatrist diagnosis actually look correct.

    Congratulations! That’s some achievement.

  1259. john sanders on August 9, 2021 at 10:49 pm said:

    Nick: Any bloke that chooses to drag his close relatives, living or dead to a shit slinging bout, is hardly a man in my books and not even close to being a bloke by Australian cobber rules as I recall. Sympathy to the missus and billy lids sure but let the swine stew in his own spiteful rage for mine.

  1260. john sanders on August 10, 2021 at 2:28 am said:

    NP: but of course, how naive can one be. Tbt’s last thread header ‘Lest We Forget’ is intended solely as a veiled threat and to whom is elementary, no doubt about it. Squire. Posted under cover of a fake RSL in memorium plaque complete with the names of two long dead relatives. Quite a few presumably entitled WW2 veterans missed out on the honourary for reasons best known to the legion concerned and or family of the reternee. Sadly no such plaques are to be found at the gravesites of either deceased nominated by our not so clever informant.

  1261. john sanders on August 10, 2021 at 4:47 am said:

    Nick: Before you bother yourself in overviewing the mostly non active flight logs of a certain disturbing element’s late father Fred, perhaps you might be advised to gain a more reliable insight into his Sqn.’s not so glamourous credentials from the nominated RAAF pilot’s commanding officer during a relevant period of WW2. Said events relare to a period between July 1941 at RAF Kangaw (Singapore pre war) and 18th March at disembarkation in Outer Harbor [sic] Adelaide S.A. aboard SS Fairsky?. As a lead-in, Sqn. Ldr. William John Harper bn. 1916 India, joined the RAF in 1939 as a trainee fighter pilot and in an interving period prior to his secondment to 452/21 Sqn. RAAF Malaya, had become a DSO and Spitfire/Hurricane Ace over Dunkirk and the 1940 Battle of Britain. After the war he settled into life as a farmer cum politician in the Rhodesian parliament at ministry level, then upon retirement writing up his own true accounts of service life, warts and all before his passing in 2006…..See ‘RAAF 21/453 Sqn. The Secret Report’ It is one of a number that should give valuable insights into less than exemplorary conduct and of initiatives (not) taken in thwarting preventable WW2 disasters such as the sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse off Kwantan Malaya in Dec. ’41 and in the subsequent fall of fortress Singapore three months later in March ’42…Bill Harper’s reference to his three new pilots from Aust. who professed not to have joined to become fighter pilots, one of the trio, presumably P.O. F. S. Bowes carelessly? put his Brewster Buffalo down on it’s flimsy bare belly, thus leaving his mates to patrol all of Jahore State until repairs could be effected on the plane….The full account is thankfully easy to access online and I have a feeling that the two later commissions of inqiry (one post war from memory) at Australian military command level might also still be found on NAA if anyone be interested in tired chronicals of a most shameful past that was not my desire to re gurgitate.

  1262. john sanders on August 10, 2021 at 5:56 am said:

    Crikies, some clown at records sure stuffed up with Bonzo’s dad who only gets credited with 17 operational sorties at 76 Sqn. In the clear blue Zero free skies over New Guinea in ’44. Some relative or RSL fixer should ensure that the number be corrected to 47 sorties (according to Peteb) over a home leave interrupted six month period comprising 90 odd hours of actual flying time. And while at it, the careless desk pilots at AHQ might also re instate the Airman’s time of effective service in the far eastern theatre between 15/8/41 and 15/3/42, details of which are ostensibly absent from the official RAAF WW2 record of service held by NAA.

  1263. john sanders on August 10, 2021 at 9:37 am said:

    Tammy Shud: Should you per chance, in your wide sphere of travels, happen to bang elbows with a Bumpkin or Misca of our aquaintance, please convey sincerest best wishes and hopes for an impass in the China/Dominion childish standoff. A pair of foul mouthed ultra feminist activists they most surely would own to and most adept in the art of male put downs too. Seldom of a cheerful disposition, but not to wonder with the constant barrage of piss canning directed their way, from a bunch of near death misogynists in the guise of honourable schoolboys no less.

  1264. john sanders: ah, I remember now. That was the 16Jul2021 comment – https://ciphermysteries.com/misc-stuff#comment-429266 – where Pete Bowes wrote:

    “Diane O D .. We are a sophisticated race of people, rarely given over to the old ways and expressions you’re expressing an interest in, however when confronted by someone in dire need of a fat lip our instinct is to get into the face of the offender and remind him in terms common enough for him to understand that his immediate presence is unwanted. In this case a Mr John Sanders, who follows me around like a bitch in heat as you have no doubt observed. It’s part and parcel of this blogging game as you know to have such infatuated individuals dogging your footsteps, and I don’t dispute that this behaviour is caused by a general aimlessness, or lack of purpose. That said, if I was ever to run into the man in a more convivial place, say the public bar of an east Sydney hotel in 1964, I’d be standing with my back to the wall. Fair dinkum.”

    How do you think this is supposed to work, then? Am I now supposed to trawl through the 35000+ comments on my blog, drawing up two lists (one of shabby comments made by him, and another of shabby comments made about him) and removing them in matching pairs? This whole moderation business is so trying when people are immoderate.

  1265. john sanders on August 10, 2021 at 11:55 pm said:

    NP: It’s got the best of me fair dinkum. Peteb’s ‘back to the wall’ comment was supposed to be in response to Diane O D’s ‘ocker’ jargon query, the homophobic inference to my own sexual preference being typical of the man’s poor judgement in dealing with humourless ladies like our Diane. The snide false reference to my own prefered mode of sexual gratification did not warrant immediate response, though when I got around to it, my reply was of a kind though with a slightly more poignant punchline, not meant to offend anyone living or dead. I wouldn’t worry too much about trawling old cock, I’m almost certain that others will take care of such frivolities and you can match the pairs as they come to light.

  1266. john sanders on August 11, 2021 at 7:11 am said:

    The rightious one who never served, dares to declare my visceral hatred of all WW2 veterans. Not at all my man, only the malingers and braggarts who never shut up about their brave exploits on land, sea and the wild blue yonder, or who urged their miscreant doubtful offspring to boast about daddy’s heroics. To make my point clearer at risk of becoming a like enthipusiast of archaic Aussie blood sports; Of seven uncles what served of His Majesty in WW2, only one half brother ‘Jacky Man O War’ didn’t come home and remains of that warrior bold lie beneath a genuine island style marker at a cemetery in Egypt. Uncle Bertie whom I also never met, lost a leg along with his mind apparently, in the Solomons and died years later in an asylum unsure of what befell him. Of the remainder we have were Sandy (my dad), Charlie, Percy and Stevie who signed up in Pine Creek N.T. well before hostilities commenced and sailed away together aboard the Queen Mary in early 1940 to a fate they knew not nor cared in the slightest. Two were captured in Greece, opting to give up their freedom for the sake of the other two who got out in the nick…on HMS Ajax, later seeing action in Tebruk, thence the Pacific theatre where Charlie (arty) helped thwart the Jap landings at Milne Bay, while Sandy a real Commando scout and skirmished in the Salamoa campaign of 42/43. These coves were not recognised heroes, just diggers doin their bit for the Empire and who mostly died too young but uncomplaining. My memories of these fair dinkum blokes relate mostly to their disdain for spit polished REMF pogos cringing in their fox holes, whilst unarmed medics, perhaps mum’s brothers uncle Vincent or Arthur were getting straffed by the japs attending to their own bleeding wounded in the jungle below. I also remember the typical grudging respect shown for my uncle’s Dago, Kraut and even Nip adversaries, front liners all without any distinction. Plenty of hilarious unlikely yarns as well…like one about the half starved jungle cow mistaken for japs carrying a stretcher under cover of darkness getting a boot up the bum and letting out a moan to wake the dead., or the huge jap who bumped into my stocky old man, both coming around different sides of a jungle monolith; Initial shock both mouths agape, spontanious cheshire cat type grins and a pair of cowards off like scalded cats to their respective digs, mum being the word. Of course none of these tall stories were told with strangers about the calf yards or within cooey of womenfolk….

    Peteb: Wherever did you, a once respectful (not respected) accursed accuser get such a weird mindset vis. Sanders, a 6 RAR deserte and now traiter to some duty bound allegance, hating and disrespectful of ALL WW2 veterans to the knot of his entralia etc…I can take all that in my stride as you well Pete old pal o mine, it’s no sweat, but I sure hope you’re only joshing about the viscera part. I suffer from peptic ulcers caused through wartime exposure to agent orange. Medbank refuses to subsidise my expensive Zantac ulcer medication because I contracted said malady overseas ie. Vietnam circax1967. What a bummer, hope I get an RSL plaque sent over for me funeral, as I did take a shine to that recently posted on Tbt, one with the Kiwi WW1 trooper on a short surf board.

  1267. Sanders. This whole thing started years ago when you called me an overprivileged draft dodger, my response was to call you a coward and deserter. You were wrong and so was I and now I reckon this shitfight has now gone on long enough.
    I’m for stepping back.
    But that doesn’t mean Pelling gets off, his research on the Somerton Man case is not up to standard and it will be my pleasure to prove it and without intending any innuendo, it’s his Pommie arse I’m after.

  1268. Tammy Shud on August 11, 2021 at 7:46 am said:

    None of you are going anywhere with your research at the moment. The only vaguely insightful thing we’ve seen in months is much-maligned “An Omnibus” take-down of GC’s images of the Tamam script, where he or she demonstrated that the old copper is using the wrong scale in his measurements.

    Should have been the final nail in the micro-writing etc coffin, but everyone was obviously too busy nurturing their butt-hurts.

  1269. Peteb: I have no problem at all with people disagreeing with (or even disliking) my research methodology, my research programme, or my research conclusions. In fact, I have so little problem that I happily publish comments here opposing everything I think, propose, suspect, believe, and conclude. Given that we’re all basically in the dark with historical mysteries, heavy moderation would come across as intolerant and just a tad insecure.

    So if there are things you want to comment on or correct, feel free, I’m not stopping you.

    But as for shitposting my face over the front of your blog, you can fuck right off.

  1270. Fighting words from a bloke with shoulders like an arrowroot biscuit …

  1271. D.N.O'Donovan on August 11, 2021 at 8:44 am said:

    second that. (August 11, 2021 at 7:57 am)

  1272. john sanders on August 11, 2021 at 9:24 am said:

    Peteb: Sure, I know darn well you were no draft dodger, age exempt unlike brother Anthony who would have had to register in 69 or 70 and my beef’s not with Tony right. As for the overprivilaged jibe, I really can’t recall saying it though as it’s my style I’ll fess up in the spirit of foulplay [sic] for which I’m renowned. Anyhow it all depends on perspectives somewhat and so long as folks came by their privilaged means through self motivation, who am I to begrudge them a tad more than they need. As for Nick Pelling and the rest of us Keanie online Stamina Man sleuths; the progress to date, being no better or worse that that shown by Det. Lionel Leane and his Keystone Cops of 1948/49, suggest that we must concentrate more fully on our own past best initiatives….if any such animal exists in our files.

  1273. john sanders on August 11, 2021 at 11:21 am said:

    Strewth Nick, I’d give half my monthly pittance to have my swarthy facial likeness on the front of any darned blog, I always relished the thought of seeing my dark handsome dial on the front cover of a true detective mag. blond bimbo real close and a look of enraptured lust in her beautiful green eyes. I wonder, with all their fancy digital gagetry and any number of clandestine informants, neither Bozo or Good-on-you-Gordon ever managed to give me a face, even though I think GC claimed to have seen one just recently.

  1274. john sanders on August 11, 2021 at 11:38 am said:

    ….Could have inserted ‘and dangerous’ in the space after ‘dark’ on the second line but modesty prevailed thank Goodness.

  1275. milongal on August 11, 2021 at 8:57 pm said:

    @Tammy – I did miss it – largely because I long gave up reading stuff there on a regular basis. Occasionally might have a looksie at where the world is at (and then roll my eyes and move on). But I guess for mine the microcode appearing everywhere (from memory at one stage there was apparently even some on the cover of Feltus’ book according to the believers) has long been a bunk. I do believe there could be some in the Hay Banknotes (of varying size) – but not necessarily in all the places being claimed (and any there doesn’t have any obvious bearing on SM).

  1276. john sanders on August 11, 2021 at 11:28 pm said:

    Diane: I recall light years ago, you suggested biscuits to our moderator. it was done in a jestful palsy guesture, but I don’t detect any signs of camaraderie or mirth in your latest blunt force quip. Must give Peteb satisfaction and vindication that his prefered mode of full on character assassination works. PS: your tongue in cheek offering to NP back in the day was for Scotch Fingers..from memory.

  1277. john sanders on August 12, 2021 at 2:12 am said:

    NP: I note that ‘Diane’s’ last post is not directed to anyone which would be a first for that most meticulous lady me thinks. Also the unusual bracketed post time of 7.57am differs with CM’s time of 8.44 am and I’m wondering if this requires status confirmation. Not so long ago there was a bogus post in my name praising the virtues of some rogue on another site, to which I responded in kind, so maybe an IP cross check would be the simple solution, or better still ask the good woman in question. PS San Francisco was once the top location for imposters and crooks, something to do with it’s convivial middle of the road time zone from memory.

  1278. john sanders on August 12, 2021 at 3:28 am said:

    milongal: problem with micro writing is that GC claims to have identified it from closer scrutiny of the copied code page in 2013, there being no denial by all and sundry, SM punters inc. in existence of the form elswhere. MW was a means of secure administrative correspondence in the renaisance circa. 1500 and likely known to illegal Hebron SP bookies at the time of JC’s stewardship of the Mighty Nazareth Disciples in their Galilee Shield defence against the Haifa first X13 1500 years before L.DV’s huminist hand revival. BS/TS Good on you Gordon’s bullshit claims for HIS very own clandestine Micro crap insertions would also include the Marco trouser pocket laundry marks, verse pages of the Boxall ROK, the original TS slip which he never sighted (????) and from memory the ubiquitous T. Keane(i) tie.

  1279. milongal on August 13, 2021 at 5:18 am said:

    yes, yes and yes. with regards to SM’s page, I don’t see how the micro writing is transferred to (and subsequently lifted from) the code page. Equally finding it in all sorts of other stuff (as I mentioned, at one stage I think there was a claim GF’s book’s cover had some on it) makes it all the less likely.
    My basic point was that I could believe it exists on the Hay banknotes in some way, shape or form. The rest of it is a crock.
    I didn’t know he’d claimed the laundry markings or the tie – I can’t even imagine how you could get that sort of size writing on cloth.

    In all honesty, even if I trusted the method and understood the transfer I have a massive problem with them being in a big suspicious code that attracts attention. Why hide it in some random retters that attract attention when you could neatly hide it in a verse of the Rubaiyat (or equivalent). As I’ve said before (which at the time I think GC took as me endorsing his stuff – obviously I was as unclear as ever), nobody is questioning whether Microwriting exists, we’re just dismissing the idea that microwriting exists in the SM case.

    I have a suspicion that following the method provided I could find microwriting on just about anything – but TBH can’t be arsed even trying because I know I’ll never convince him it’s a crock even if I had results (I remember him explaining that my choosing words in Psalm 23 to make “Danetta” was somehow less validly random than him choosing it in other texts). In any case, I don’t doubt he works hard researching his ideas and stories – but I think he is totally blinded by confirmation bias and always looks to explain how his “facts” fit the story, rather than considering or challenging that the ideas might be wrong.

    I quite like Boxall in Littlemore’s flic – “It’s a melodramatic thesis, isn’t it?”. Whether Boxall knew something about it or not, you can’t help but think he was quite amused at the attention it gave him.

  1280. john sanders on August 13, 2021 at 2:37 pm said:

    After a quick review of GC’s latest revelations in which the undisputed master of BS/TS seems to have put Jessica back in top billing as authoress of AB’s ROK verse 70 and accompaning JEstyn signature; as opposed to Clive Turner’s Maj. William J. Moulds nomination, I feel obliged to ape Peteb’s lead with a well deserved “Good on you Gordon”, his gutsy back down being duly recognised. Might we dare hope that he also sees fit to review the not really unexpected misinterpretation of army service records pertaining to Alf Boxall and Tom Musgrave vis., 1944 & 1945 M/O posting dates, or else save face and take a high dive into the deep briny off Clifton Gardens jetty.

  1281. john sanders on August 14, 2021 at 4:50 am said:

    Here one minute, gone the next. Takes some grit, owning one’s guilt in havin done their best to put one over on his followers. Only response worthy of such honesty would be to say, “Good on you Gordon, being truthful can have it’s rewards”. It seems like yesterday that I was discussing with comrade Bunke how unlikely the chances of y’man pulling a flawed BS/TS post, even in the face of having had three possibly fair dinkum comments on the farce..

  1282. Peter Davidson on August 15, 2021 at 8:15 am said:

    Without knowing the actual Provence of the ROK nor the Taman Shud slip, and how they actually came to be where they were allegedly found the value of them to any investigation of the Somerton Mystery is merely speculation. My thoughts are that he stole the book from his killer, tor the piece out and left the book in the car that took him to the beach, where doing this to show police a chain of custody back to whomever were complicit in his poisoning, as he assumed correctly that the slip would not be found by those complicit in his murder, when rifling his clothes before placing his body. But this is only what makes logical sense to me.
    IMO Somerton Man did not write anything in the ROK because it wasn’t his book. But he took it knowing that it would identify his killer, because he Knew that his killer did something with the book, which would identify her.

  1283. john sanders on August 15, 2021 at 11:31 am said:

    Peter Davidson: As you so rightly infer, mere speculation, just as your theory is but no more so than most others put forward, some well thought out and with merit, others less so though well meant. Then we have GC’s foreIgn intelligence style clandestine hit on Stamina man, special effects and all, a well organised sanctioned beach killing with or without exteme prejudice and none of the usual left behind promotion only scatter? Mere speculation as well.

  1284. john sanders on August 16, 2021 at 8:55 am said:

    Nice of his nibs to inform his Tbt blogsters that the Sanders-Bowes disputation has been resolved along mutual lines and under harmoginous no fault terms, without need for further correspondence or apologies to be entered into. That’s mostly fine by me, for the ebb and flow of battle is something an old soldier rellishes, so long as he’s ahead at the end, which is why we never die, but fade fade away.

    In saying that which was not difficult due simply to the fact that during that brief period of conflict, most of the bitter tirades whilst being obviously about me, didn’t actually mentions Sanders by rote, so theoretically the insults might well have been intended for some other scum bag eg., ‘Good on you Gordon’ or Professor. Derek Abbott for all we know. Same can’t be said however for Nick Pelling who took a real shellacking and if it were moi on the receiving end…..well?

    Put’s me in mind of something came up about the Presidential Bush family and there personal way of handling harmful and insulting accusations made against them during time in office, like George H. W. deciding to invade Iraq in ’91 quite contrary to world opinion, or son George W. when he fabricated Iraq’s nuke building intentions as an excuse to go in again in 2003, plus all the nastiness said critical of their respective lack of nouse.

    George H., most fervent in adherance of God’s ways and modern interpretation thereof, declared he was thus prepared to forgive and forget unreservedly. George jr. who was a little less fervent though no less a God fearing man to a degree, was himself quite happy to forgive but not to forget. Martha Bush, wife and mother to both great men, more aquainted with psalms of the old testement, declared that if so slighted, she would neither forgive or forget..Here endeth the appistle Peteb.

  1285. John Sanders: let’s just see where the science leads now. Being continually blog-bollocked for the supposed ‘sin’ of wanting to see even one piece of evidence supporting a loudly-held theory is getting a bit bloomin’ boring. 🙁

  1286. john sanders on August 16, 2021 at 2:46 pm said:

    It was Charles Darwin, who in a letter to a young Mary Boole, well read authoress in later years, responded to her need for some assurance that creativity fitted with the terms of his essay on ‘Origin of the Species’. He informed that it was inately so and added succinctly that God’s word was telegraphed with the help of Jesus and a dozen of his yarn telling disciples from Gallilee, who intern were allowed a degree discretionary licence to get the main point across, initially to the simple denizens of Nazarith and so on throughout humanity. I’m sure he also explained to this very astute young woman of many hidden talents that there was also one heck of a lot of science in play to back up his own fantastic though unchallenging conclusions, and that Creativity was not in danger of becoming old hat any time soon. How does that fit with CM Misc. Stuff Nick.

  1287. milongal on August 16, 2021 at 10:29 pm said:

    PB IMO (like so many other equally melodramatic theses out there) the problem is that there’s too much unnecessary fluff that brings attention rather than dismisses.
    The TS and Rubaiyat and scribblings are totally unnecessary. Like other ideas, your scenario seems to imply the code was a message to someone – but it sounds like the people who would be interested in the message are those creating it – so it’s redundant. To me, the scenario doesn’t explain why the code page was necessary (and why given it’s presence it’s necessary to have something that looks cryptographic on it). Nor why that same paper should publicly point toward Harkness. IMO, a series of 4 ‘A’ on a piece of paper would be far less suspicious than a “code” trying to hide 4 ‘A’. If we are to consider this scenario (which as I say, I dismiss quite easily), the rest of the code must serve some purpose.

    While I accept that local spooks were new at what they did back then, to me the evidence seems to clumsy – especially the 2 tickets. I would imagine the best way to create fake evidence is to come up with a backstory in your mind and then plant things based on that (and if we’re feeding TS slips and stuff to the police then we can also direct them (or indirectly suggest) they follow the evidence a particular way. The 2 tickets do look very much like a plant – but not by a competent state/intelligence actor.
    Similarly, the only purpose of planting the suitcase would serve for such a thesis is to establish that SM had been in the railway station that day. Surely the Henley ticket does the same thing….but why is it important that he was in the Railway station? Is this just to sell the idea he is an interstate arrival? Was the Henley ticket originally meant to do that and something got muddled in between?

    Every step of the way there seems to have been an effort to keep the public engaged and to create more mystery – something that you would surely be looking to avoid if there’s something clandestine going on? It would be far easier to suppress this as a mundane death – either by not releasing detail about it after a few days (it would disappear from the public interest quite naturally), or have a plant claim the body and bury it. The public were only interested because the body remained unclaimed, and then all this other stuff was discovered. It seems to me that the actions of the authorities are far more inline with wanting publicity around it, than trying to cover up an embarrassment or some other type of whoopsie.

  1288. john sanders on August 17, 2021 at 1:02 pm said:

    Milongal: Despite what Peteb would like everyone to think, namely that Leane was a senior detective with experience as a team leader and administrator, he was nothing of the sort though he certainly had ambition to be up there with the best, like his little brother Geoffrey who in 1948 was already at Inspector level and one of best Adelaide CIB had at the time. Likewise his sidekick Len Brown had only just made Detective and would have been eager to show his credential by being on a big case.

    From all appearances a mundane beach death investigation, passed over by ace Investigator and former Special Branch top dog Harry Strangway, on the surface was not likley to help either eager beaver to where they needed to be career wise. From both their interviews with Littlemore years later when the lads had run their respective races, with little more than average passes and no longer at their best memory wise, bot were nontheless quite resolved to the probability that the SM case was suicide. Most likely a bushy come to town, got bored and offed himself.

    And why not, if as appears reasonable that the death was not at all suspicious and at first bluff seemed quite munane at that. One could well pursue an angle along the lines of, our suits, not wishing to pass up an opportunity that might not come again, merely created their own little diversion, one full of mystery and intrigue to make the death look like something more mind bogling than a Sherlock Homes mystery sans elementry dear Watson. Starting by telling all and sundry that the body’s discovery with all clothing labels missing (not true) was not right along with journey tickets and other little quirks that looked shady which is just what the press hounds needed and who couldn’t get enough of.

    The rest of the story speaks for itself, the whole lines of investigation developing a life of it’s own and getting more and more difficult to control without adding to in the most convuluted ways, police adopting all manner and means of plants, false trails and other people like the nurse becoming embroiled for little reason but to enhance the case’s universal attention. One can’t deny Leane’s brillance, even his knowing when to call it quits with no loss of face, the exhaustive though inconclusive outcome satisfactorily put to bed by yet another member of the famous Leane clan

  1289. john sanders on August 17, 2021 at 2:18 pm said:

    To-day 18th August marks the 55 aniversary of 6 RAR’s battle of Long Tan in which 18 members of Delta Coy lost their lives on active service in Vietnam. A memorial in the form of a concrete cross had been errected by veteran’s of the action in 1969. This being at the battle site and which was removed by war’s end in 1975, a replica being thus rededicated in 1989 to mark the 30th anniversary. In 2018 a fake cross of 1988 vintage, tauted as the original was bought by the Australian War Memorial at great expense and now takes pride of place within the hallowed halls. Only trouble is that it rests in imposing grace with it’s front up against a wall in order that evidence of it being a cloned imposter are cunningly concealed from anyone who per chance, may have been present during it’s fabrication.

  1290. john sanders on August 18, 2021 at 2:19 pm said:

    Had Harry Strangeway, arguably Adelaide’s longest serving and most expienced detective been motivated to follow through with his mundane duty in investigating the beach death case, to which he had attended as duly assigned call out officer on December 1st, it may well have been resolved fairly smartly. Of course we’re not to know what he ascertained from the crime scene search in the way evidence, but it certainly was nothing out of the ordinary or it would most certainly have come out at the inquest. As things turned out he was called to give evidence in a committal hearing the following day involving a man accused of indecent assault of a four year old girl and as a consequence nothing more was heard from him regarding the SM case. Years before he had arrested a suspected house thief and discovered a missing hundred pound note rolled up tightly and secreted in the perpetrator’s bicycle handle bar. What therefore might be the odds of this fastidious suit missing a rolled up Tamam Shud slip in a dead man’s fob pocket. Not a hope in hades would be a fair guess and so it makes the subsequent chance finding of same by a retired professor in the course of unrelated matters seem slim by a any stretch. If this assumption has merit, than we can justifiably pass on the mysterious ROK, the code, the nurse and her husband, Alf Boxall and the Clifton Gardens affair, KGB assassins and nazi rocket men, Pakies place and Hellmuth Hendon. These just to name a few of a whole host of unlikely suspects in a murder that wasn’t, one that the hand of Gerry Feltus so deceitfully dealt us.

  1291. milongal on August 19, 2021 at 9:42 pm said:

    But the point everyone seems to miss is that it wasn’t a crime scene – it was just a dead body on the beach (I was going to say “happens all the time” – which is an exaggeration, but not a massive one). When you know a crime has been committed (e.g. apprehending a thief) you investigate thoroughly. When you’ve presumed that you’re dealing with a mundane stiff that’ll no doubt be collected by family you tend to be less thorough.
    Whether someone is a competent Defective in the Police Farce or not has little bearing – when you come across something that doesn’t seem to warrant a thorough investigation you don’t bother with it. Everyone seems to harp on about all sorts of evidence that appears to be missed, or to have been thrown together for inquest as though there’s some sort of conspiracy. I put it to you the answer is far simpler – they didn’t think much of the case until it was too late – and they then retrospectively had to fit their statements to how they understood the case.

    I think I’ve asked it before (and heard crickets in response):
    At what point did the police realise they were dealing with something more than a mundane death (e.g. give me a date they decided this was unusual)?

  1292. john sanders on August 20, 2021 at 12:31 am said:

    milongal: Not nit picking, you know I wouldn’t but, notwithstanding the likelyhood of a mundane death or more to the point suicide which must be a top contention, Stamina Man’s discovery site is considered a crime scene nonetheless. Cases of self destruction are always treated as crimes and prosecution is thus mandatory if unsuccessful. As far as a time factor for suspicious death goes, it may have been considered as early as when the autopsy findings hit the papers early on. When Leane was assigned to clean up a matter that the press continued to persist with it created an aura that the matter was more than routine. Subsequent release of the suitcase finding was to start the chain of events lending itself to all sorts of fanciful espionage crap and such that persist. Good on you Gordon and you too Peteb.

  1293. Walking down the aisles of a used book sale you pick up a
    an old worn book and leaf thru the pages. You find some words
    underlined, passages highlighted and writing in the margins.
    Now comes the question, how do you find the additions in a
    600 year old Manuscript ?

  1294. milongal on August 21, 2021 at 11:46 pm said:

    News dot come reports a witness has come forward claiming they saw SM on the beach when they were a kid….

    @JS: Whatever the procedure, what I’m suggesting is that coppers can’t help but be more ambivalent (or maybe I mean apathetic) about some investigations than others based on their presumptions.

  1295. Dog P!ssed on him….maybe that’s where “damp” comes from?

    A man has come forward for the first time, claiming to have seen the Somerton Man’s dead body on the beach more than 70 years ago when he was just a child.

    Rural Victorian resident Rodger Todd has been sharing the incredible tale with family and close friends for decades, but has never gone public.

    That was, until a friend of the 84-year-old dobbed him into the media.

    In his first ever interview, the Poolaijelo resident told NCA NewsWire he had been walking along Somerton beach before dawn about 7am on December 1, 1948 with his terrier called Dandy when he made the discovery.

    Mr Todd, who was only 11 at the time, said he spotted the man on the sand, slumped up against the fixed stone wall with his head perched on his chest and thought he was sleeping.

    He said he walked within about 50m of the man when he realised Dandy had run off towards the person he believed was sleeping and urinated on him.

    “I was a bit embarrassed about it at the time, but there was not a soul around,” Mr Todd said.

    “I thought it was a bit strange because it would have woken him up, so I went over to him, looking very closely to see if he was breathing.

    “The closer I got, the more I realised he wasn’t breathing.”

    The Somerton Man’s body was found on Somerton Beach, in Adelaide’s southwest, on December 1, 1948. Picture: Supplied
    The Somerton Man’s body was found on Somerton Beach, in Adelaide’s southwest, on December 1, 1948. Picture: SuppliedSource:The Advertiser

    According to the grandfather of one, he got within one metre of the unknown man, then ran back to his family’s holiday home along the Esplanade and told his mother he’d seen a dead body.

    She replied that she would call the police.

    Mr Todd said he asked his mother if he was allowed to go back and have another look at the man but was told he couldn’t leave the house.

    Peeking from the front window of the home, he said he saw two police cars and two ambulances arrive at the beach within the hour, as well as about 20 spectators.

    Mr Todd has always been curious to know if his mother was in fact the first person to contact police about the Somerton Man.

    “I remember talking to mum very briefly about it a couple of years later but she wasn’t very interested in it. She was a private person.

    “The reason I haven’t got back to the authorities since then is because I (only) saw him and that’s it.

    “I could only describe how he looked and where he was.

    “I can’t see that it would be of any interest to them for me to own up because I didn’t touch him.”

    Mr Todd said he couldn’t clearly remember what the Somerton Man was wearing at the time, but described the clothing as “dark” coloured.

    He said he thought he was wearing a jacket.

    “I could see a fair bit of his face and I remember having memories of his face … There was a bit of colour in it.”

    Mrs Todd said her husband first told her the story when they were courting almost 60 years ago. Picture: Supplied via NCA NewsWire
    Mrs Todd said her husband first told her the story when they were courting almost 60 years ago. Picture: Supplied via NCA NewsWireSource:Supplied

    His wife Marjorie, 76, said her husband of 56 years had “been sticking to the story” she had first heard when they were courting almost 60 years ago.

    “I’ve kept him in very good health so he’s able to tell the story,” Mrs Todd said.

    “This could not have been told because it happened such a long time ago and nobody else has come forward.”

    Their youngest of three children, Kristine Todd, said she thought the story was “hilarious” and was her dad‘s “cool” claim to fame.

    The Vale Park resident, 51, said she first heard it about 10 years ago when she brought the Somerton Man up in conversation after reading about it in the newspaper.

    “(At the time I thought): ‘dad’s been keeping this secret from me for so long. This is so exciting’,” Ms Todd said.

    “I tell people about it and I have one particular friend who was gobsmacked and wanted to ask dad about it straight away.

    “I think with that generation, their fathers had been fighting in wars, so I guess death wasn’t a major, weird, freaky thing to an 11-year-old compared to this day and age.”

    The identity of the Somerton Man remains a mystery, more than 70 years after his body was discovered on the beach.

    Questions around who he was and where he was from have captured the imaginations of generations of Australians, with many waiting with bated breath to find out if his exhumation unveils the truth about his life.

    His body was exhumed in May this year with forensic experts working to extract DNA to try identify the man.

    An SA Police spokesman said there was no further information to provide about the exhumation.

    When police found him in 1984, the man had an unsmoked cigarette resting on his chest, his hair was perfectly in place and his double-breasted jacket was pressed and in perfect condition.

    A number of clues were left but none have yet helped to crack the case.

    Officers found an aluminium comb – which was unavailable in Australia – that suggested he had recently been in America.

    There was an unused rail ticket from Adelaide to Henley Beach, and a bus ticket from the city. This led police to the train station where they located a suitcase they assumed belonged to him.

    Pathologist Professor John Burton Cleland found a small rolled up piece of paper in a hidden fob pocket in the man’s trousers that read: “Tamam Shud”, which was Persian for “it is ended” or “finished”.

    The paper from that note was later found to have been ripped from the final page of The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, specifically a 1941 edition.

    In the back of that book there was an encrypted message which was five lines long.

    Code-crackers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Scotland Yard were tasked with decoding the message, but were unable to.

    An unlisted phone number belonging to a nurse named Jessica Thomson was also discovered in the book, but the woman denied knowing the Somerton Man.

  1296. john sanders on August 23, 2021 at 5:20 am said:

    130 Todds Rd. Poolaijelo Vic. is where our latest SM informant Rodger Todd lives, the isolated district having been developed for soldier settlement dirt farming post WW2 and wife of 50 yeas Marjorie can help with additional local history. It would seem that all’s fine and dandy with Rodger’s memory of his dog’s name etc., there being no outward signs of of disillusionment or tendency for distraction, although the fellow is known to be a Keane fisherman and tall tale telling must be therefore considered..

    By the way Poolaijelo being to all intents a mere speck on the map malley town less than a kimometer from the border, is more South Australian than Victorian and a deal of it’s administration and local affairs are controlled from over the line including Mr. R. Todd’s S.A. fishing license. So when, young Rodger aged eleven, was holidaying at Somerton instead of doing his sixth class primary finals he was likely not too far from home, the family travelling overland by their own means.
    Todd family history is scanty and y’man is not on national service rolls for 1955.

    As for his recollection of that day at the beach in big day, first thing amiss is of course the timing of his discovery which of course goes against the grain of what we know or might assume from evidence deduced through three alternate witnesses in Neil Day, Jack Lyons and John Moss, strapper Day and his mate Horrie and their nags the earliest from 5.30am. Young Todd in his version states that the beach was deserted when Dandy cocked his leg on our SM at 7am. Who to believe.

    So after determining that the man was a gonner, he heads off home to tell mum about his lucky find, is ordered not to go back for a second squiz and she up and calls the cops, their subsequent arrival, two cars and an ambulance, thought by young Toddy to have been within the hour. We know that because our informant tells of having sighted the vehicles from a front window, which by my reckoning must have been the house adjacent. The Nunns who were tennants therof, may have been overseas at the time so holiday occupation by the Todds is possible.

  1297. john sanders on August 23, 2021 at 11:02 am said:

    If it turns out that our Rodger’s middle name is Norm with a DOB of 11/3/37 and a mum named Lillian, then things could get a little interesting, but all is lost without said links…. I’m not so confident.

  1298. milongal on August 23, 2021 at 8:51 pm said:

    @JS: the 7AM stuck out to me too…especially with “before dawn” thrown in. official Sunrise was 4:56AM that day – but I’m never certain quite what that means (is that the first bit of sun we see, or what). I remember reading about civil twilight vs nautical twilight vs astronomical twilight…..and while I assume sunrise refers to civil twilight (sun is less than 6% below horizon) I actually don’t know.

    In any event 7AM is not consistent with what we know, and is not consistent with “before dawn” (anyone who has been in Adelaide late in the year would know the morning is already quite bright by 7AM – and as the coppers reported that morning “quite warm”). Not quite prepared to dismiss it entirely (memories embellish themselves over time, and facts that seem quite vague concrete themselves wrongly as you retell the story)…..
    Sort of interests me the “20 spectators around”. Even if we assume that includes the fuzz and the ambos (which it sounds like he doesn’t) let’s say 2 coppers, 4 ambos (in 2 cars), 2 jockeys, Lyons….and 11 other people hitherto unmentioned…..

  1299. john sanders on August 24, 2021 at 4:13 am said:

    @mil Looks like ‘Good on you Gordon’ has given Roger [sic] a pass on mistaken timing of 90 minutes, so as to add more weight of evidence when substantiating his beach body delivery after the pre dawn high tide inundation. GC once argued that the nine foot Spring tide was not a factor, but of late is seen to be the leading contender for pushing it in his latest ASIO cover-up contention…As for the kid of 1948, I have a feeling that he may have lived at Gilbarton S.A. and moved to the malley after hitching up with Marjorie, plus his daughter lives in Adelaide so that connection is valid. I’m still needing a DOB if someone can help.

  1300. milongal on August 24, 2021 at 8:47 pm said:

    I would expect no different. It’s a lot easier to make up a nice story then choose the facts you want than the other way around. Probably not the only one guilty of it, but certainly one of the more obvious ones.
    Sometimes it’s a wonder we haven’t decided 1st Jan 1948 is an inconvenient date and chosen a new one to fit the story.

  1301. john sanders on August 29, 2021 at 9:30 am said:

    Peteb’s latest tongue in cheek Nhangreta/black hand mafia sanctioned hit on SM may have been intended to show up Mario Puzo’s limitations as a novelist apropos his rather tame Godfather yarn of ’69. His own thrilling parody is set in post war Glenelg S.A under the notorious “Freeman” (?) family’s mob rule as opposed to the fictional Correleoni ‘Family’ who once terrorised NY. It does serve to remind us of certain similarities with former mainland Italian immigrant ‘mafiosa’ style mobster standover tactics adopted during much the same historical period in countries like Australia…some time back this site covered Rosie Barbero’s mob set up in Hindley St. Adelaide and invirons which including Glenelg; search under Melbourne market gang/Nhangreta

  1302. milongal on August 30, 2021 at 9:42 pm said:

    He’s a story teller (and to be fair he’s good at it).
    La Trattoria wasn’t on King William St in the 40s. In fact, La Trattoria wasn’t established until 1975 (even Marcellina’s which has a linked history only dates to about the 60s). A minor point, of course, but an indicator nonetheless of the broader accuracy of the narrative.

  1303. john sanders on August 30, 2021 at 10:27 pm said:

    …and about as funny as a wet fart in a sleeping bag. He would have done better to star Lionel Leane’s genuine mafioso NY ‘tailor’ Antonio Ugo Pozza (call me Huey) and his gorgeous sister, the madam Josie Piazza along with mother Teresa and any number of newly arrived made men brother’s in law from Napoli via Coney Island.

  1304. john sanders on September 1, 2021 at 6:18 am said:

    Just so you’s know re Peteb’s latest ‘scenes that could have been’ fantasy sketch, …Mrs. Thompson’s [sic] “year old urchin son Robin” had actually turned two by the time Det. Canney showed up at 90A Moseley St. Glenelg for his cuppa tea and a bit of crumpet on 26th July ’49. Time folks got a proper picture of Jessica Harkness the interviewee; her nice smile, if indeed she flashed one, would have shown that her Ipana dental plan wasn’t worth a beaver’s berm. And as for the author’s other minor mistaken physical perception, the Errol Canney I met in the seventies had a glorious full head of hair, so I doubt he would have been scratching at a bald spot back in ’49.

  1305. For those interested in the ‘ballet dancer’ theory, watch “Hit & Run” on Netflix, series 1, episode 7, from around the 18 minute mark. Seems like dancers did use code for choreography (according to this action/drama series anyhow..).

  1306. john sanders on September 1, 2021 at 10:37 pm said:

    Matt: Shipboard life for Ballet Russes artists on route to the colonies from Europe in the thirties was notball bear and skittles during the dreary six week voyage. When not keeping up to mark on their stock in trade skills, they played their own bilingual word code games to relieve the tedium. Can’t see why this didn’t extend to dance steps and choreography. No need for the net flix fantacy deal, I’m a believer

  1307. john sanders on September 2, 2021 at 2:12 am said:

    ….bare with me Matt, trying to catch deadines can at times effect one’s usually tight spelling efforts and if you don’t know where I’m from beer is spelt bia which is how people from Adelaide pronounce it. Back to ballet and the onboard word puzzle code games, they were devised as a form of entertainment by two opposing Poles (so to speak), one was Leon Woizikowski a Krakow born choreographer with soviet links, the other a Warsaw native with like credentials in Tadeuz Slavinsky of who’s allegence favoured the third Reich (Aust. Nat. Arch.) Strangely they were the best of pals when it came to having a flutter on the nags at the track throughout the antipodes whilst touring and both were married to Brit born ballerinas with odd names. Such information was reported over some time in intercepted mail to a conservative MP Maggie Power by American dancer Thomas Armour, the US counter operative. His snippets of intel. were presumably for joint British/USA interests and his letters dated from mid 1937 are out there. Tom went on to become a Major in the US Army Signals Directive (Intelligence) during WW2 and afterwards opened several high end dance academies in eastern states (still there)….And by the way, none of what you just read, likely has anything whatever to do with Stamina Man who died of unknown causes on Somerton Beach in 1948.

  1308. Matt .. I considered this approach many years ago when attempting to use the code agains a ballet index, then I joined a ballet forum and put the proposition that, say, WRGOABABD was code for a ballet sequence .. A for arabesque, B for battlement and so on, they responded by saying it was an interesting thesis but the first line of code, once interpreted in such a manner made no sense as a series of ballet moves.

  1309. john sanders on September 2, 2021 at 8:55 am said:

    As I was about to make an Abbott & Costello joke on which of our Tbt. team is the straight man and which is the clown, along comes Bozo with his favourite foil name of Gordon ‘stripes’ Strapps in a renewed effort to convince us of some crazy point that serious SM punters will reject out of hand. On the other hand this young former naval rating whose first hand knowledge of mosquito swarming habits was not considered at the inquest is another matter. Witness Strapps, was surely trying his best to exstrappolate that whilst mosquitos would naturally have been drawn to a natural food sourse, they did not alight on the body, merely buzzing about it in confusion at meal time. To metelot Gordon it was a dead give away, the buggers knew they couldn’t get blood out of a stone or, more to the point unoxygenated skin poors that were thereby untappable…And well spotted once again to the original disclosure by Mr. Deveson our connective tissue authority, for his astute assessment of what young Strapps was getting at in his testimony, when other so called scientific minds seemed not in the least cognisant of it’s potential impact.

  1310. john sanders on September 2, 2021 at 1:44 pm said:

    One thing can be said in favour of Peteb’s new temp. Alan. H, is that he must be a clean living codger ie., abstaining when it comes to non tailored smokes or trick substitutes, and he obviously has no notion whatsover as to where Green’s patent lighters were manufactured, not Bradford PA if that’s what he imagined. His last post mention of USMC (United States Marine Corps?) has me baffled unless of course some thieving rascal’s been white anting my letter box again.

  1311. john sanders on September 2, 2021 at 11:07 pm said:

    No secret Gordon, Beyond the grave (Australia Story ABC 8pm 6/9/21) is merely part two of the 2019 SM saga which includes tired repeats of the stuff already aired, plus a not very informative post exhumation up date with bits of pieces of a lower jaw with a few teeth that may or may not prove relevant. Why all the intrigue all man, it was promo’d last Monday.

  1312. john sanders on September 2, 2021 at 11:26 pm said:

    …..no dice on the sneak preview of a nondescript lower jaw bone. I’m confident that it does not compare with Dr. Dwyers autopsy tooth chart, so could be an old archival set belonging to Piltdown man or Adolph Hitler for all we know.

  1313. john sanders on September 3, 2021 at 7:29 am said:

    Peteb…I’m sure Alan Hamell means well and we know he thinks a lot of ‘good on you Gordon’ GC. Sounds youngish and a little forward with his insinuitous Tamam Shud evaluations and without experience for this line of work it seems. I think he got that message from his one visit here, in fact I had to gently steer him off in a direction more suited to his yen for coming to conclusions (erronious to a fault). Hope you don’t mind?….I’m reminded of y’man’s belated birthday wishes to our mate Paul Lawson which reinforces my stated character analysis.

  1314. john sanders on September 6, 2021 at 5:00 am said:

    The Boxall/Littlemore (silkman) interview has not only ‘been done to death’ in the words of our master of “let’s do a re-Pete”. It’s impo been gone to hell and back with Just one comment deemed necessary to cover all the hearsay and second guessing of Tbt’s very latest. It would seem to be that the only lie Sister Thomson told that we’re aware of for sure, is one concerning her assumed name and marital status which she fibbed about to prevent loss of face.

  1315. Forget about the little Q and A at the museum did you, Ace … plus the tell-all by daughter Kate? You know, it’s occurred to me you’ve never owned let alone read a copy of GF’s book … a simple test would set that straight.

  1316. john sanders on September 6, 2021 at 7:16 am said:

    Occurred to me long long ago that you have no concept of what weight second hand testimony, like that of Kate Thomson, especially like that of a centinarian discussing recall from seventy years beforehand and particularly when that same person didn’t mention Mrs. Thompson’s diizzy spell at the interview with Steuy In 1978. Hearsay is not statement or fact, Peteb…..only to writers of fiction.

  1317. Exactly old sport, writers of fiction … and here you are, a lifetime member of that exclusive club. Because it takes one to know one,

  1318. john sanders on September 6, 2021 at 12:17 pm said:

    Standing by for an update from ‘Beyond the Grave’ if someone would be so kind; Someone with a reasonable grasp on reality would be preferred.

  1319. john sanders: I think it stayed in the grave. It was like a “Stars on 45” compilation of all the TV Somerton Man clips you’ve come to know and, errrm, “love” so much.

  1320. milongal on September 6, 2021 at 9:07 pm said:

    When any “new” program goes first to the same old sources of information they will get stuck in the same rabbit holes.
    There seems to be 2 twists on it:
    1) the “DA is a professor directly involved in the case and this is fascinating”.
    2) (more in print media) “The Ruffles/Cramer theories” – all a melodramatic thesis.

    Randomly aside (as ever) if Littlemore and Boxall rehearsed lines when did they do it (and why, and how, and which one demanded that)? It doesn’t really make sense Boxall dictating – Littlemore wouldn’t be so desperate to have him on there that he’s happy to manipulate the narrative, so if there’s any manipulation it must be directed by Littlemore. But that doesn’t really make sense either – he’s an investigative journalist, not a story teller – so what motive would he have to rehearse lines?
    Might be worth checking through the NAA’s collection on the Littlemore Doco. You’d probably be able to work out how much time was spent with each interviewee (I suspect only 1 or 2 days for most of them – but I stand to be corrected). Then you look through the transcripts (which include everything that was filmed even if it was cut and/or repeated – including from memory some cuts where Boxall isn’t happy with a question or at least isn’t forthcoming). Then (aside from wondering why such out-takes would exist if it were a carefully choreographed interview) you decide how much time there is for one party to convince the other to change the narrative and agree on the story line. Collusion from that angle simply doesn’t seem to make sense (and if you suggest they met up offline somewhere to align the narrative that’s heading to a new level of crazy).

  1321. john sanders on September 6, 2021 at 10:33 pm said:

    @milongal…..Boxall fits nice and snuggly with the others(?) according to Peteb’s recent take on the Boxall/Littlemore deal. But contrary to your own intuitive take, I’d say that’s stuck in a tired old level of crazy.

  1322. john sanders on September 6, 2021 at 10:51 pm said:

    Nick Pelling: or more like the 33.3 longplay version. I’ll get it Wednesday on Aust. TV if it goes ahead. But all in all, it suggests that the police spokesman’s ‘well preserved’ state of preservation graveside assessment of the remains could have been merely for the sake of an uplifting public presentation which he didn’t feel deep down.

  1323. Excellent question, Milongal, what indeed would have been Littltmore’s motive to provide a backstory when he could simply have asked Boxall ?

  1324. john sanders on September 7, 2021 at 8:37 am said:

    NP: got it thanks…Two or three minutes from finis, an overhead shot of the cast brought to mind earlier depictions of Robin which I’d not noticed before.

  1325. May I say, John Sanders, that it does me good to see that at last you have found a permanent home at Cipher Mysteries, as I’m certain most cryptologists would agree.

  1326. john sanders on September 7, 2021 at 12:02 pm said:

    …on the other hand, Peteb, most cryptographers probably wouldn’t.

  1327. milongal on September 7, 2021 at 9:13 pm said:

    That felt like exactly the same thing they had in 2019…..except with a brief intro about the exhumation.
    Same footage, same interviews, same speculative leaps. Maybe they missed a little bit of footage with Abbott in the car talking about how he met Rachel….but I guess they needed some time to add a minute about the exhumation at the start.

    It sort of bothers me how these sort of things promote opinion as expertise. They talk up people’s qualifications (despite not really being helpful to the case) to make them sound like they’re not just any pleb telling a story (e.g. it’s interesting that they have Professor Henneberg speculate about how the TS slip ends up in the pocket; or they have the Attorney General make the off the cuff “Of course I’m interested in the case, I studied it at Law School”).

    Repeat my earlier thoughts: If you keep asking the same people you’ll keep getting the same narrative. Perhaps that’s why the series is called Australian Story – they’re not looking for any sort of resolution or truth, they just want a nice story.

  1328. milongal: what was supposed to be interesting about talking heads explaining why they made bad choices?

    Once DNA has been extracted, we should be able to definitively discard almost all of the fantasy narratives. And boy oh boy, am I looking forward to that day.

  1329. milongal on September 8, 2021 at 2:16 am said:

    @PB: Thanks for the mention – wasn’t necessarily quite where I was going, but it’s certainly one possibility, and an interesting take.

    Maybe I’ll have to rewatch Littlemore’s film (or at least re-read the transcripts).

  1330. john sanders on September 8, 2021 at 3:14 am said:

    Nice little piece of plagiarised satyre courtesy of GC of TS/BS. Gordon warns us in his all knowing way, not to be taken in by demented rumor mungers that are apt to prance, dance and babble along merrily before rushing forth with torrents of lies and slander. Not unlike your average charlatan of course, who will bide time but stand ready to pounce on any unsuspecting foolish muppet that comes within range. Only difference being that they enjoy having an accomplice of a certain type ready to take the heat when needed………Q: What well documented physical characteristic did English poet Alexander Pope and our Jessica Thomson share?

  1331. john sanders on September 8, 2021 at 4:20 am said:

    milongal: It’s surprising that they decided to give Mike Henneberg another run, considering that his credibility has received a good hammering over the years whether justified or nay. Not only with regards to his involvement with the fake Reynolds Seaman’s Card and similar Robin/SM hereditary links which I’m thinking may not be quite within his area of expertise. I recall his involvement long ago with discovery of a skull in a cave on the Indonesian Island of Flories? and subsequent bitterly contested disputation that arose on what part of humanoid evolution it belonged to, if any. That may be as yet ongoing, though fortunately a possibly related claim of him defrauding $400.000 in funds from the University of S.A. was found to have been a mere oversight. As for his comment on the TS slip, I guess an anthropologist has as much right to opinionises as anyone…accept for charlatans and sock puppeteers of course.

  1332. How is it that in the Boxall Littlemore interview Alf wasn’t asked any questions about Harkness, leaving Littlemore to provide all the answers in a studio voice-over?
    And why do you think the Jestyn sign off was obscured by a piece of tape?
    It’s got me beat.

  1333. john sanders on September 8, 2021 at 10:46 am said:

    Peteb: Still awaiting your GF/UM ‘read it on not’ test. Make it as simple or as tough as you like whatever. I’d say my grasp on the sadly though necessary content of same would equal or most likely excell that of someone not so particular about factual content in an historical novel.

  1334. john sanders on September 8, 2021 at 12:54 pm said:

    Peteb: Pretty tough task for Littlemore to quiz poor Alf about a name that didn’t even exist until Derek Abbott revealed it thirty years later. Sure enough Jessica Ellen Harkness proved much more popular for eager punters circa. 2013 than the Theresa Johnson alias that Feltus trotted out, to honour a 1949 pledge by Det. Leane of forever anonymity…

  1335. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 3:27 am said:

    Peteb: from the NAA’s files on Inside Story 77/78 vis. Littlemore had 25 questions for Boxall on his recollections of a girl/nurse named Jestyn whom he met with at Clifton Gardens pub in 1945 and who can be identified as your ‘Harkness’….About the obscurred Jestyn sign off, I’d suggest that Mike Munro was concerned that it’s presence might create problems for a proposed part two segment (shelved) and possible legal hurdles should Jestyn be openly identified by their intended star witness who knew her personally.

  1336. milongal on September 9, 2021 at 5:10 am said:

    @JS the name might not have been known, but her existence was – that’s why he’s talking to Boxall in the first place (or have I missed your point).

    In any case, people have often talked about running the letters against a large corpus/corpora. Has anyone actually done that ever? And does anyone know of any readily available , extensive corpus that fulfills any of the following (preferably free or at least dirt cheap):
    – Can be downloaded (I suspect any meeting this criteria are not nearly big enough)
    – Has an API to search it
    – Has an interface supporting regex
    I’ve heard Project Gutenberg mentioned before, but couldn’t find an easy way to scrape it (and it pretty explicitly says “no bots or automated accesses except via wget”) – it seems more of a “free books” site than anything else these days.

    Slightly related if anyone knows of a large biblical (or better yet generically religious – spanning more than christianity) corpus (preferably of translations that existed in the 40s) please advise.

    I’ve recently had 2 thoughts re the “code” (which may have been mentioned in the past).
    Firstly, suppose the owner of the Runaiyat was converting to Judaism and had to memorise some prayer of conversion or equivalent (I would sort of expect a few ‘Y’ (Yahweh) in the code if that were the case, so unlikely), but I sort of like “GOA” for “God of Abraham”, and the W at the beginning of lines for “We”. Perhaps “AIAQC” is “And I am Questioning Commandments” (in which case this would more likely be a home-made response to something than a verse, and our chance of deciphering it usefully is Buckley’s).
    Kind of similar (but not Jewish) I’ve considered whether this might be a couple verses from the bible (more likely Old Testament, I think, but can’t quite articulate why, so I’ll call it “gut feel”). In this case, MLIA could be “My Lord is a”, or “My Lord, I am (borne of Adam/Abraham)….” (Perhaps we could even consider if AB together represent Abraham if someone is trying to remember a specific A among a sea of others).

    Anywho, if anyone knows any good and easy to search corpuses (both religious and broader) let me know. Most I have found search for words easy enough, but don’t work for anything but the most basic pattern matching.

  1337. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 6:21 am said:

    …and of the six, perhaps seven questions put to Alf, two or three connected to his knowledge of the girl Jestyn, most relevant being one to do with the man’s military intelligence background and if she (Jestyn) knew of it.. “Not unless someone told her” says Alf. So Peteb, it seems that you have been misled by your handler once more which has a familiar ring. I saw from the visuals that Stuart revealed his lack of face to face experience by not eyeballing the wiley 72 year old Boxall on camera at any time, such display perhaps one of subservience due to age disparity, hence a quaint old fashioned show of respect for his elders. In 1978 Stuart was relatively young at 34, only three months and ten days your senior, from memory…Wonder if Alf Boxall, Paul Lawson’s ship counting spy team leader, then being cognisant of Littlemore’s sissy middle monicker, held it over y’man to reduce the impetus of any questions. Unlikely but possible with our villain’s known soviet links, courtesy GC.

  1338. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 6:50 am said:

    milongal: my point being based on Peteb’s insistance, vide. 7.55am 8/9 post, that “Alf wasn’t asked any questions about Harkness”. His retort will likely be ” I told you so, milongal backs me on that, so sit on it”.

  1339. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 8:25 am said:

    Another solution could be that the line capitals represent key letters only and do not of themselves combine to make a completed verse perse. There’d be a non fixed amount of twixt letter filler text that would naturally come to mind with practice thus making up the completed verse format. We learnt many wacky worded Act definitions, legal jargon and the like in that simplified cipher parrot fashion manner and I can still recount many by rote, having not the slightest idea to what they relate., eg., When the Laws of the Commonwealth be inconsistent with those of a State; Laws of the Commonwealth shall Prevail and Laws of the State shall be disregarded to the extent of the Inconsistencies…W L C I S L C P L S I . Note that some filler text has a natural flow order and therefore may have reduced need for mem triggers depending on the individual’s recall ability….(2) Might code letters represent key words of a catchy 1948 top ten Bill Board hit…Slow Boat to China or similar? The mind boggles!

  1340. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 9:09 am said:

    “Off they go, muddying the waters etc.,…..predictable” so said Gordon Cramer at 18:33 to day. Who the heck is “they”, couldn’t be from anyone here as the last likely post addressed to milongal would still have been in the pipe line at the (adjusted) time. Nothing at Tbt worth bitching about to my eye, only his helpful complete run down of the Australian Story @ ‘Welcome to a Quagmire’ doco just aired. Whence comes Gordon’s trigger for annoyance I wonder, almost as if he’s got his head in someones windows to me.

  1341. Well, all I can can say, Johnno old veteran, is if I wasn’t putting up so many scenarios you’d be out of a job .. face it, old boy, you must have been a ranking officer to have such an Aristotelian view of the unrewarded foot slogger. Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy. I only hope one of them scores the big money.

  1342. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 11:10 am said:

    Muddy Waters: Great to get a copy of the Aust. Story transcript for reference and thanks for thinking of me. Didn’t realise that Horrie Patching, first to declare SM deceased, was a mere trainee jockey, always thought he was one of Adelaide’s top hoops. Nor that all the labels/tags had been removed from the body, this news from the world SM authoritiy DA. So we can only wonder where the Stamina labels came from. One never stops learning in (from) this case.

  1343. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 1:11 pm said:

    Remains to be seen young fella-me-lad, I’ve always championed the underdog and if, for instance GC Scooores, I’ll be first to say that I was always a firm believer in his Lofty Fedosimov ID, no doubt about it at all.

  1344. Byron Deveson on September 9, 2021 at 8:02 pm said:

    JS, you asked “What well documented physical characteristic did English poet Alexander Pope and our Jessica Thomson share?”
    Alexander Pope was four feet six in height, and Jessica only two inches taller. It is said that Pope contracted tuberculosis of the spine (Pott’s disease) in infancy and this would explain his slight stature. There is no suggestion, judging from photographs, that Jessica suffered from this disease but her diminutive stature is very anomalous for a woman supposedly born in Australia in 1921 to relatively prosperous parents. This, coupled with my suspicion that Jessie was adopted, probably from overseas, suggests that Jessie’s might have been conceived during the Russian famine of 1921-22 which claimed 5 million lives. Peter Wilson “Spy Catcher” claimed that Lionel Murphy was born in Easter Europe and that a false birth record had been inserted into the Registrar Generals records. When Murphy was standing for pre-selection for parliament (about 1960 from memory) one of the unions published a dirt file on Murphy in their union newspaper and this claimed that Murphy was born overseas and that his claimed background was false. In the 1990s I went looking for this union newspaper but was unable to find any copies for the relevant time.
    It is on record that the KGB/GRU was still “tomb-stoning” in Australia in the 1970s. See John Alexander Symonds, the “Romeo Spy”.
    http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,1034167,00.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/sep/14/features11.g22

  1345. milongal on September 9, 2021 at 8:50 pm said:

    @JS – definitely makes things even harder to resolve on the Code Page (and had sort of occurred to me). Even if we assume a total acronym it’s unlikely we can ever definitively make sense of it, but if we consider dropped prepositions, articles and other grammatical fluff it exponentially increases the complexity. I tend to think the prevalence of A, T and presence of some O and I suggest dropping ALL irrelevant words is unlikely – although the idea that some are dropped can’t be entirely dismissed.

    If we further consider that as well as that sometimes more than 1 letter might be used it complicates further again (especially if the writer is inconsistent) – although I think the spacing of most of the letters to me suggests total independence – that is 1 letter per word.

    So between the letter spacing and distribution I’m reasonably comfortable with the premise this is acrostic of ALL letters rather than some. Additionally, it does seem to be arranged in similar length lines, each with a break in the middle – which I think wouldn’t be quite so neat if dropped out the in-between grammar. I absolutely agree it’s not the only way it could be, but it’s certainly a good enough starting point for me.

    NB: I’m assuming despite a lot of talk about it, noone has actually played with this against a corpus of any sgnificance?

  1346. milongal: Barry Traish went looking in the Gutenberg corpus for matching acronymic sequences: https://ciphermysteries.com/2015/09/12/barry-traishs-backronymic-poem

    I think – as I thought in 2015 – that we would need a copy of the original picture in stupendously high resolution to enable us to see past the topmost layer to the writing beneath.

  1347. john sanders on September 9, 2021 at 10:50 pm said:

    BD: for want of better knowledge I’ll bow to yours. It had been reported in some circles that Jo was only 4′ 6″ as was Alexander Pope, the satirist of Scunthorp (?). My underderstanding is that Pope’s muppet like stature was maybe due to a spinal disconnective tissue disorder though perhaps, as you say, it was more likely to have been Pott’s disease. I was also of the belief that it had been James Thomson (Rule Britania) who was GC’s ‘dancing, prancing, cavorting, babbling’ poet of the same era; So once again I must stand corrected, which leaves me blabbering to myself as usual.

  1348. john sanders on September 10, 2021 at 9:26 am said:

    A FOND FAREWELL…in bold cursive like icing on a cake; It made me think all our prayers had finally been answered..Alas all we got was more of GC’s muddled waters in a never happened account of a by then long since disbanded fleet of rag tag auxilliary craft “small ships” steaming through Sydney heads in October 1946 to a phantom fanfare ticket tape parade and a none to fond welcome back from the war that had ended fourteen long months earlier. Truth be known Peteb’s unconnected AV Crudader [sic], a substantial state of the art recovery vessel of 13 Water Transport RAE likely arrived alone and unanounced, depositing Alf Boxall and his crewmate Pierre Cau at their home port for furlough (discharge for Peppy) before heading to Tasmania or alternatively back north on a gruesome mission of body retrieval and/or Arms & war surplus materiel recovery. Farewell to Arms was the only farewell intended in the latest Tbt loose thread…sadly.

  1349. Come in spinner ..

  1350. john sanders on September 11, 2021 at 9:41 am said:

    I was thinking much the same Peteb. With Crusader apparently sold off and in private hands by early ’47 with a name change and running back and forth between Devenport and Melbourne with logs, how come she’s still crewed by WT lads. Alf seems to have spent a month or two at SME Casula LHQ following his home leave at Maroubra from mid October ’46 before boarding her, though it gets messy with page 1 of his OSR missing. Certainly doesn’t appear that he ever relieved on her during the previous year in the Islands on other vessels. That matters not with regards to his unlikely hooking up with the long gone Aussie rag taggers a 3rd matey name of Keane. Perhaps you could check through the 13WT association newsletters for any pointers to port calls in Melbourne or Adelaide through 1947. Can’t see that means much from my perch though

  1351. milongal on September 12, 2021 at 12:27 am said:

    Thanks Nick – I seem to have missed that one in the past….

  1352. john sanders on September 13, 2021 at 6:13 am said:

    Peteb: You got me worried about the validity of your Thomson family tree in re your new indepth probe into young Robin’s father. I realise that your misca & another fine researcher with a similar name followed identical leads going back to early ’13. From detail given by your other colleague Ruth Collins @ Xlamb, Quentin and his fatherhood from two marriages cannot be discounted off hand. Whilst his post war life seems to be centered in country Victoria, trips to UK with a grandson (?) Carl @ James sound suspiciously contrived but who knows. Something new, arising from his conflicting years of birth (19 & 22) provide yet another going back to1916, taken from page 37 of his RAAF records which seems to be supported by info of his school year results at Blacktown Primary and Westmead Tech. If that aint enough there is detail of his having spent 18mths in 17 Infantry Btn. in the early forties, though the service number on his discharge in ’42 (sighted by RAAF recruiter) comes up blank now. Whether he fathered a Caroline Alison Thomson to Ellen Sarah in 1948 is not confirmed though likely in my estimation, stemming from notes I once made, namely that his second marriage ro a widow, included two stepkids and the one by deceased (1974) Ellen. I also had brother Adrian down as having a nipper with Blanche but could not varify same, so I wouldn’t be giving up on the possibility at least that one of le freres Thomson got the odd angry shot away around October ’46. Oh…and by the way, if as the world’s most credible SM authority proclaims, Jessica left RPAH in the same month as she was potted then went down to Mentone and Prestige Johnson [sick], what might have prompted her desire to move. She certainly couldn’t have known then that she had one in the oven, based on my understanding of women’s problems.

  1353. john sanders on September 18, 2021 at 3:45 am said:

    Hosea 8:7 …… “For they who dare to soweth the wind, so too shall they reapeth the whirlwind” – A fine old Psalm dedicated to Tbt’s new sleuth Xlamb, fresh from her stretch down Port Adelaide (Northfield) way it seems. Happy trials Peteb.

  1354. john sanders on September 19, 2021 at 6:15 am said:

    @Peter Bowes…..ex 3RAR (refer GC TS/BS) ex 1RAR ex 6RAR ex 7RAR ex 118 LAA Bty. ex 1RTB ex ARU ex RHU ex 28 Cwlth. BdeTerendak/Selarang/Changi/Kangaw ex JWS Jahore ex Woodside S.A. ex Compol/Austpol/Fedpol ex Pine Gap ex Woomera ex Dee Why ex Miranda ex Wagga Wagga ex Holdsworty ex Tamworth ex Collector ex Goulburn ex Yowie Bay ex Cheero Pt. ex Epping ex Concord West ex Cronulla ex Lake Cargellico (via Avalon) Ex mouth Gulf ex Campbelltown ex Picton and the list goes on for this wandering ex factored sorry son. Nice of you to show an interest, and so now’s your turn, if I might be likewise so arrogantly & abruptly intrusive; anywhere else besides Sydney subs. and lately Federal (Love Is.), I havn’t gotten round to checking, Job’s honour. Too busy with dedicated ciphermystery cases of late for that boring crap Squire.

  1355. milongal on September 19, 2021 at 6:54 am said:

    Honestly didn’t realise Yatala was part of Northfield (thought GJR was the suburb boundary)…..I assume that’s what you meant?

    Random story….
    The Greenacres Football club plays out of the oval next door(Grand North is their clubrooms – I think it’s actually owned/controlled by North Adelaide Football Club….but stand to be corrected). Many (,many) years ago I played an SAAFL game (Div 10 North) against Greenacres, and a whole bunch of low-risk prisoners got day release to fill their team. I can’t remember the result (we weren’t very good, but from memory neither were they, and they were one of the clubs we occasionally beat), but apparently a good number of them stayed in the club rooms for a few ales and ended up returning late (and feeling somewhat sophisticated). As far as I know, as a result they were never allowed to play footy on day release again.

    I also remember in my bus driving years picking up a pax on the 360 (or 361) route in Port Adelaide who didn’t have a ticket but “had to get back to Yatala by 5PM”.

  1356. Peter Davidson on September 20, 2021 at 12:27 pm said:

    “what might have prompted her desire to move?”
    Usual suspects, spring to mind.
    Being caught out by the fellow’s missus.
    Non consensual sexual assault.
    In trouble with the law.
    Failing nursing exams.
    Anything really

  1357. john sanders on September 20, 2021 at 1:06 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: If you’re meaning her move from Sydney, I’d root for the number five suggestion. It’s a no brainer!

  1358. Byron Deveson on September 20, 2021 at 7:26 pm said:

    JS, I note that Dr Milo Weeks Sprod 1870-1934 was a first cousin of Rosa F Cudmore 1879-1954, wife of Reginald Bickford 1870-20/11/1948. Milo’s wife was Dr Lica Delprat and both Lica and her husband Milo have had a gallop on these pages in relation to their connection to the MI5 gent.

  1359. @John Sanders … you asked
    petebowes.com
    About

  1360. john sanders on September 21, 2021 at 2:20 am said:

    BD: I was aware of a link between Milo Sprod and the Cudmore’s likely through Rosa’s dad James Francis (Paringa Hall Somerto) who got around a bit and had huge pastoral tracts throughout the land including one in Qld. called Milo before going broke. The gallop you refer to was instigated by PeteDavo and turned into a cluster phuc of fantasy involving the widow Lica and an as yet non existant chemist J. C. Freeman of 24A Jetty Rd. Gleneld. The MI5 gent married Tanya? a niece of the BHP boss and turned out to be a bad investment, both for British Intel. and the well healed Delptat family. PS. At the time (1948) Lica Sprog was long gone from Glenelg and Freeman Chemist FSMA, managed by G.A. Lean was at 62 Jetty Street between Milton & Chapel.

  1361. john sanders on September 21, 2021 at 7:27 am said:

    @peteb…you responded
    Petebowes.com
    About… IP locater ?

  1362. Google it Ace

  1363. john sanders on September 21, 2021 at 12:38 pm said:

    Google can be aced Ice, try again!

  1364. john sanders on September 21, 2021 at 1:18 pm said:

    No body could possibly be getting kicks from this Peteb/sanders idiotic off thread tit for tat baiting crap. I’m gonna just cease and descist at the risk of being dubbed a party pooper or worse. It’s all likely Clive Turner/Walker’s doings to uphold an alternate loyalty pact of some long standing if truth be known.

  1365. milongal on September 21, 2021 at 9:25 pm said:

    I think PB was going to look into bakeries. If we assume the pasty came from Glenelg (or nearby) these are all the Bakers listed in S&M. Pretty sure a lot of them seem to be home addresses, but a lot are on main roads and might be shops (the fact there’s 2 at 116 Jetty Rd with different surnames suggests that could be a shop).

    I’ve also included 2 in Henley Beach – As best I can tell, the numbering (and street layout) has changed and the Esplanade one would be where Henley Sq (GoogleMaps now has Henley Sq as the shopping centre between Seaview and Military – I always thought Henley Sq was the area between Seaview and the Jetty…..which is where the bakery) is now, and the Seaview Rd one would be opposite the Ramsgate. The Railways Station would have been on Military Rd, Just North of Main St (so same area).

    A thought occurred to me about the Railway ticket – were tickets for the route or for the service? Even if they’re for a specifci service rather than any service on the route, what if an out of towner didn’t know that? Maybe the ticket was purchased for future use? Does it change anything? Probably not, other than it might help dismiss an item whose presence has bothered me for some time…..

  1366. milongal on September 21, 2021 at 9:26 pm said:

    Helps when you paste the bit you promise

    Allen Bros. 282 Brighton Rd Brighton
    Badenoch w. R. 414 Seaview Road Henley Beach** Henley Sq
    Beard R 93 Brighton Rd, New Glenelg
    Brockhurst F. 16 Jervois St, St Leonards
    Conolly and Sons 93 Jetty Rd, Glenelg
    Dymond E.C. 101 Partridge St, New Glenelg
    Eclipse Cake Shop, 61A Jetty Rd, Glenelg
    Figg, E.T 101 Partridge St, New Glenelng
    Gehlert L 415 Esplanade, Henley Beach**
    Hepworth T.H 25 Brighton Rd, North Brighton
    Holmes T.P 120 Partridge StNew Glenelg
    Leopold S, 39 Jetty Rd, Gelenelg
    Oliver L.H 158 Jetty Rd, Glenelg
    Phillips A S 116 Jetty Rd, Glenelg
    Proudman D 3 Boundary Rd, New Glenelg
    Rose Mrs M 116 Jetty Rd, Glenelg (same as Phillips)
    Rudd A 75 Jetty Rd, Glenelg
    Terry Mrs E.R Jetty Rd, Glenelg

  1367. milongal: maybe everyone has forgotten about Glenelg’s All-Night Cafe that I mentioned a few times here, if you remember Thomas John Kean (in court 29 Jan 1937 in Trove) or the Misses Robinson who ran it. That would seem to be the #1 place for a late-night pastie. 🙂

  1368. john sanders on September 22, 2021 at 3:28 am said:

    Then there was Wenzels, best Cornish pastys in town, was also in Jetty Rd. had SM alighted closeby and thought to pick up one for ‘ron. Best thing about them, they came with their own travel case for portabilty and unlike your humble pie, they slid neatly into into a man’s coat pocket to be consumed later cold whenever hunger pangs called for abatement….Whence the mention of pies & pastys in the first instance pray tell; there doesn’t seem to have been a definitive, if anything it derived from suggestions of partly digested potato by the pathologist? and later sadly taken out of context by who knows, probably Wikipedia. I recall some time back, reminding punters at large abiut the you beaut ocean view dining facility above the Brighton & Somerton Sailing Clubhouse which offered up a menu wherecon could have ordered fare containing potato, ie, scallops or chips to go with fish meals, or the Tuesday night special, shepherd’s pie with topping of lightly browned mashed potato. The Somerton Yacht Club, premises had moved to the beach front from Farrell Street stables in 1947 so it was just a short stroll south along the shore line or Esplinade above from Somerton Man’s final resting place alongside Bickford’s unique stairway. As such it makes for a perfectly sound option to the much over blown pasty which is getting a little stale by now don’t you think? reckon.

  1369. john sanders on September 22, 2021 at 6:21 am said:

    A big ‘Good on you Gordon’ for having the decency to delete attachments to your current RIP Paul Lawson feature; claimed to be the results of agent Clive Turner’s strangely unrecorded face to face, espionage tainted interviews with the respected centenarian gentleman prior to his sad passing last week. A decent period of grace for the newly dead is always best no matter how tempting an opportunity for further advancing one’s dedicated SM themes.

  1370. john sanders on September 22, 2021 at 11:03 am said:

    I take that all back, fact being that Mr. Gordon Cramer (thanks @redacted) is doing his old soft shoe shuffle routine of ‘now you see em now you don’t’ under his dedication to Paul Lawson sketch which will surely spook his Aboriginal and Torres Straights Island followers..My intuition perceives that the old rogue, being up to his usual tricks, is merely preying on the easily led whilst feeding off the newly dead.

  1371. milongal on September 22, 2021 at 8:50 pm said:

    @NP &JS: TBH didn’t look at Cafe’s and the like, and this might be why a lot of those addresses look residential – this list is an extract from the “Professions” section of (the not always reliable) S&M under “Bakers, Cake Makers and Caterers”

    I do agree with JS that the “pasty” connection seems to have been a leap based on a casual comment (e.g. “It definitely has potato – maybe something like a pasty?”). It would be interesting to get a better idea of exactly what was said, but sadly it seems it wasn’t recorded. I think typically a pasty has carrot, pumpkin, swede/turnip and sometimes peas (and of course pastry). I’m no expert in digestion, but I would imagine some of those would still be recognisable by an expert some hours after a meal, so it is a little interesting if potato is the main hero here. To that end, I take JS’s fish and chip suggestion and raise it to what SA people call “potato fritters” (and the rest of the country brawls about whether they’re potato cakes or potato scallops) – that could leave some potato and something resembling pastry…..(oops, I just noticed he did mention the scallop – so it seems we might agree).

  1372. john sanders on September 23, 2021 at 3:33 am said:

    Second thoughts, or at least a viable alternative for Jerry Somerton’s last meal would of course have been chef Muriel’s house special of corn beef, cabbage and boiled spuds with mustard sauce. Jack James Silver Wings dining room was located next door to Freeman’s FSMA pharmacy at 60 Jetty Rd. Glenelg so as to give our man a place to eat seated and alone, to prepare his TS slip, torn from his pocket rubaiyyat, then to carefully secrete same in the convenient lavatory while taking a last dump and later tossing the book through a convenient open car window upon departure for the beach. The FSMA premises at 62 was actually managed by Lance Manning, qualified chemist (1929) for the Freeman chain but, seeing as the family lived nearby at 31 High St (Verco), it’s quite likely young Collin would be there to oversee the busy establishment (a few yards G. J. Coles emporeum).

  1373. john sanders on September 23, 2021 at 1:22 pm said:

    Next week we meet Kate @ jestyn, Peteb’s lascivious pre pubescent fantasy of earlier posts. It’s a caution, Indeed, indeed…couldn’t resist Bozo, forgive?

  1374. All good …

  1375. john sanders on September 24, 2021 at 7:00 am said:

    Milongal. Trying to figure the FSMA (chemist) meaning, probably accrostic code, noting that the SM is smothered by F A. In the forties the business title came with the managers name ie., Lean or Manning but, by the early fifties Freeman had taken their place but leaving the FSMA code….Had our man shown up a couple of years earlier he would have found Jacobs the pastry cook next door at 60 Jetty Rd. Maybe he’d tried their pastys years before; From memory their was also a Jacobs residing in Esplinade Somerton not far from X around 1948.

  1376. Byron Deveson on September 24, 2021 at 10:47 am said:

    JS, FSMA = Friendly Society Medical Association. See Trove 1940-50.

  1377. john sanders on September 24, 2021 at 12:18 pm said:

    BD: Thank Heavens to betsy, one more un crackable accrostic was gonna be one too many for our mottley crew to fathom. I put the damn thing up every which way and got FA. Good on yer mate. Remember when you gave us all the lease holders in Jetty Rd., and it was there, but at the time we had not much to go on so it did’nt raise any eyebrows.

  1378. john sanders on September 26, 2021 at 9:17 am said:

    Benji, a Vietnam war historian with whom GC has been known to offer research advice re nominal rolls, one name in particular of which he provided a photo in need of unit varification and the like. Thought I could be of assistance also and offered it but, alas Benji didn’t reply so I put the matter to rest as one might. Just to-day Benji popped back up once more on Gordon’s BS/SM Sunday special slot, a must for those Keane on reparty and mirth. Twas then I realised that the usual spy news was in fact comprised of a compilation of slightly recalibrated old shite. The eighteen comments including Benji’s original from June, proved no less fahciful than they did when originally posted….I’d still love to get a copy of Benji’s posted snapshot of said veteran. Might make a valuable gift to the Saigon Vietnam war attrocities memorial photo gallery.

  1379. Peter Davidson on September 26, 2021 at 4:35 pm said:

    JS. Either he changed his clothes after eating, or it wasn’t a pastie.
    No crumbs. Pasties leave crumbs.

  1380. milongal on September 26, 2021 at 11:16 pm said:

    @PeteDav: Maybe if you eat a pasty standing up it’s possible the flakes don’t end up on your clothes….but….
    We have a man who kept a used bus ticket, but didn’t have any hint of takeaway. No greasy paper pie bag, no napkin (no receipt either – although maybe that’s not so unusual). And of course, no change in the pockets – but that at least could be a target for an opportunistic thief even if a napkin or paper bag isn’t.
    I’ve always had a bit of an issue with the bus ticket – it’s an unusual memento to keep (and I’m pretty sure there were bins in the stairwell of buses for the exact purpose of disposing of used tickets). Assuming his food was takeaway, at some point he’s found a bin to dispose of the wrapper – but all the same the Rubaiyat has ended up in a car (rather than the bin he chucked his food waste in) and the bus ticket in his pocket. In any case it suggests when he ate he was still well enough not to be lying on the beach – which as flagged by (almost) everyone who’s ever looked into this, is REALLY problematic on 2 fronts:
    1) The person on the beach the previous evening
    2) The time of death

    Maybe he wasn’t the sort to put rubbish in the bin – maybe he was happy to dump it on the beach somewhere – but doesn’t that make his bus ticket even more peculiar? The horse has long bolted, but what if his fast food bag ended up in the car too? Someone who owns a car where their relative is not surprised to find a random book on the floor might have a messy car where you don’t notice other rubbish their either. But it sort of seems a bit odd to be getting rid of stuff in a random car unless you’re non compos mentis (drugs or booze) which I supposed isn’t entirely far fetched.

    And while on the book. Why does he need to get rid of it in the first place? It’s presence in the car is the one small thing that maybe supports a conspiracy (or at least that he thought he was being followed and had to dump it for some reason). Otherwise why chuck it in a car? Why not find a bin – or throw it in the sea?
    Can’t remember if I’ve ever brought it up, but what if the book was thrown (or less likely picked up by a gust of wind) from a window (bus or building) and happened to land in the car? Of course, that’s still one hell of a stretch to land through a car window….

  1381. john sanders on September 26, 2021 at 11:30 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: Soviet housekeepers took care of the pastie crumbs, thereby negates the need for any change of clothes. Well though out, a no brainer in fact and sure to please the punters.

  1382. john sanders on September 27, 2021 at 6:32 am said:

    In NAA files open to all from the 1978 Inside Story interviews, lionel Leane was assigned as case OIC with low rank of Det. Senior Constable in 1949 not Sergeant as noted by the press of that impressionable era. According to Len Brown, the pair never had any dealings with Jessica Thomson or the ROK in July ’49 both having been assigned to other squads by the time of her being interviewed by Canney. This was a lead up to the subsequent Alf Boxall Randwick bust which concluded the SM inquiries perse. Regarding the suitcase Len gaffed by saying it was left at the railway station (sans cloakrooom), then the refres….(room?) before cloakroom in a rush as if recalling his briefing lines. His chat with Littlemore is peppered with similar little gaffs if one cares to study the full non edited version. Likewise we have incredible inconsistencies in Paul Lawson’s carefully worded responses to Stuart’s failed attempts to ellicit perceived truths, infact the man denied emphatically showing the bust to a person under forty at any of his SM peek shows This being totally at odds with what the man revealed? to Gordon Cramer more recently and also at a graphic reconstruction of claimed events including a demonstration of Jessica’s reaction to the bust and her negative responses to quizzing on ID by the supposedly re-assigned Det. Leane. Sadly too late to ask either Browny or Paul for their reflective thoughts but when you have a confessed bullslinger in Feltus of Toro Toro Toro fame and ‘Inner Sanctum’ co-conspirator Cramer pushing every dubious utterance in order to maintain the initiative it is a caution; Indeed, indeed.

  1383. John Sanders: You say Brown and Leane were both hands off the case in July 49, but that was the month Freeman handed Leane the Rubaiyat ..

  1384. john sanders on September 27, 2021 at 8:42 am said:

    Then there’s the little brown collector ants that thrive in the cracks of Adelaide’s foreshore seawalls scavenging pie and pasty crumbs for breaky around dawn, They would surely not have overlooked such tempting morsels, there for the taking off the jacket and duds of the body laying alongside Alvington beach stairs at sun-up.

  1385. Clive J. Turner on September 27, 2021 at 10:31 am said:

    milongal, Didn’t Freeman state that he found the Rubaiyat, in the car, around the date of the Parafield Air Pageant, i.e. 20 Nov 1948? Question I find odd is why, did he keep the book for so long, according to others the Rubaiyat books were two a penny in the 1940s. Why not toss it away? After all, it was torn/damaged wasn’t it? Perhaps, the Rubaiyat wasn’t found in the car but, had been left in his chemist shop, Freeman had a quick look and decided to keep the Rubaiyat in his car/

  1386. john sanders on September 27, 2021 at 11:15 am said:

    Peteb: that was the month when you say that Freeman handed Leane the book. See Brown’s related claims which are well ducumented on the NAA SB file, that seem to contradict your version of what went down between 22 to 27 July ’49 when he and Lionel were not on deck for the end game including Paul’s show. Don’t get confused with what Feltus claims to be fact in The Unknown Man. There are numerous well ducumented errors of fact, both mistaken and otherwise to be found throughout the book to my reckonning..

  1387. john sanders on September 27, 2021 at 11:54 am said:

    …..try the last four questions to Brown on page 41 of Inside Story that might set things straight for you, but then again maybe not. There were strange things afoot that afternoon at CIB HQ, Friday 22 July ’49 to which you even alluded to (23rd incorrect), least of which involved Les Wytkin’s alternate ROK finding. Could be grounds for the lads having been posted to other duties. Leane’s delayed promotion til ’52 might be food for thought and by the way whence did his alleged ASIO secondment furphy derive.

  1388. milongal on September 27, 2021 at 8:10 pm said:

    @Clive: It does seem a tad odd to hang onto a useless booklet like that, but I sort of believe the idea of an in-law finding it and assuming it was something the kids were destroying and putting it in the glove box. I think the Parafield story raises 2 thoughts – firstly that a lot of the facts are (possibly inadvertently) manipulated to match the story:
    “When did you find the booklet?”
    “Uhm….I can’t remember……I know I’d been to the air pageant at Parafield….”
    “So it would have been after that?”
    “Uhm….I had a clean out of the car before we went there, and it definitely wasn’t there then”
    “So it happened after the pageant?”
    “Uhm….I guess so”
    “So it could have been on the 30th Novemeber”
    “….I guess so”
    Secondly (and sort of related), we don’t really know how good people’s memories are. As PB keeps highlighting there are numerous inconsistencies with a lot of detail – and while some of it might indicate conspiracy, I suspect some of it simply indicates that most people are not naturally good witnesses.

    @JS: Your talk on the suitcase does sort of flag something. How was lost property handled back then? Is there any possibility this was lost (rather than checked) property? Even if the station didn’t make a mistake, what if someone found it and in an attempt to bring the station’s attention to it managed to check it in? It might explain why there’s no stub AND it destroys any hint of a definite timeline insofar as that case could have been sitting wherever it was found for hours or longer (and what if the suitcase wasn’t even found in the station, but instead out on North Tce or something)?
    So picture someone has found some lost property and in an attempt to gand it in…..
    “Hi, I’ve found a suitcase do I leave this with you?”
    “You want to check a suitcase?”
    “Yeah, it was in the Cafe and I figured you guys can look after it”
    “No problemo….”

    As for the ants….it reminds me of “left-handed moths”.

  1389. john sanders on September 27, 2021 at 10:57 pm said:

    The oft asked questions surrounding the police version of the rubaiyat and when it went missing has been cause for some added concern at Tbt of late. Seems that Peteb doesn’t go with what Feltus spells out quite clearly in his own tattered copy Unknown Man. GF’s explanation being that it was known to have gone missing around the early fifties, which would coincide with when both Jimmy Durham and Det. Sen. Const. Leane’s younger (high ranking) brother Geoffrey headed off for Blighty on unspecified business.

  1390. John Sanders: the one thing Brown and Feltus have in common is that neither set eyes on the Freeman ROK .. Brown tellling Littlemore he last looked for it unsuccessfully six or seven years earlier. Feltus writing that ‘two reliable sources’ told him they had seen it.
    That’s it … apart from a newspaper picture of a Whitcombe and Toombs (sic) edition mocked up for an early edition soon after Freeman left the shop, one that wasn’t pocket sized.
    There is no proof that the Freeman ROK ever existed. All we have is a policeman’s word, and fortunately for him (Leane) he didn’t have to swear it on the Bible.

  1391. john sanders on September 28, 2021 at 7:59 am said:

    …….A comparison of the type used in the printed words “Tamam Shud” was found to be identical with those on the [BACK] of the paper found in the victim’s clothing”
    A strangely worded paragraph from a lead story in The News of 27th July, ’49. Is it merely a bypassed editorial gaff or could it mean precisely what it says that might cast doubt on validity of the multitude of press last page copies. If Taman Shud was printed on the end page verso, as suggested then we’d need to find a copy with that unique TS slip setting and the means of proof. Brings to mind some unusually similar wordings connected to inquest exhibits C7 and C9 from memory..

  1392. …. and who was Dave Bartlett in the scheme of things? That’s him anding stage left in the suitcase shot with Lionel and Len.

  1393. john sanders on September 28, 2021 at 2:13 pm said:

    Possibly David Evan Bartlett, former cabbie and mechanic from Unley but that’s his only claim to fame, shows likeness to Sapol’s Chief Superintendent Bartlett of more recent times so could be a relative but guessing don’t count for much in this business.

  1394. john sanders on September 29, 2021 at 4:45 am said:

    Peteb: Sure looks like David Evan Bartlett’s the D or PCC in the pic and perhaps father of future Chief of Detectives Graham John Bartlett to boot. Big coincidence is that when Dave moved from Unley in the 50s or 60s, he found a nice bungalow at 78 Partridge St. Glenelg. You’ll recall Les Wytkin of ROK wipe-out notoriety lived at 75 in the day, and wasn’t it said that Jessica Harkness also lived in Partridge back that time or am I fantasising again.

  1395. Same bell ringing here … and I’m thinking Bartlett must have been up to his armpits in the investigation to get into the prime publicity shot with the case’s big boys. So, how come he’s off the radar?

  1396. john sanders: 18 Jan 1949 in Trove – “Det-Sgt. R. L. Leane, who, with Detective L. Brown and Plainclothes Constable D. Bartlett […]”. Bartlett was apparently working out of the Glenelg police station in 1950, and seems to start getting flagged in Trove in 1943. But Trove has a Constable D. W. Bartlett, a Constable D. J. Bartlett… which is which?

  1397. clive J. Turner on September 29, 2021 at 8:05 am said:

    Nick, Take a look on TROVE at News (Adelaide) 31 Jan 1948, Page 8.

  1398. john sanders on September 29, 2021 at 8:30 am said:

    Choice is twixt David Wilfred 1922 and David Evan 1909 for mine.. Best I can offer up for D. E. is his CMF photo for comparison with Peteb’s SM ‘big boys’ pic which is not bad. As a cab owner he did have minor form for rego. non compliance pre war and is even Gazetted, though that could a be Sapol internal stuff. Hey maybe he knew those other Glenelg cabbies, names have slipped my mind.

  1399. john sanders on September 29, 2021 at 9:11 am said:

    Two pics, one holding the tartan scarf t’other with the spare duds. I’ll go for my man D. Evan simply in that his age of 38 fits nicely. I note also that he married Liz in ’37 and on inlistment ’42 states one child. Supt. Graham John Bartlett born ’39 is spot on for a family Sapol connection. A dampener would be his army ‘D’ med. discharge for ‘insipid brain herniation’, or that military jargon for plain stupid.

  1400. john sanders on September 29, 2021 at 12:56 pm said:

    Yet another negative ID on the Darwin typewriter mech. R.E. Davis. What’s that got to do with current threadlines. Perhaps Clive has something new and significant to reveal for the selected few which would be a treat Indeed.

  1401. Byron Deveson on September 29, 2021 at 10:59 pm said:

    JS, you noted that “Supt. Graham John Bartlett born ’39 is spot on for a family Sapol connection. A dampener would be his army ‘D’ med. discharge for ‘insipid brain herniation’, or that military jargon for plain stupid.”
    That is fascinating and, no, not military speak for stupid. Brain herniation has various causes, and, particularly in the 1940s the outcomes were all bad (=fatal), except for the hereditary condition Chiari malformation which can sometimes not be inevitably fatal. Brain herniation usually causes death by cardiac arrest.
    So why do I think this is fascinating? Well, firstly Bartlett must have had a Chiari malformation rather than the inevitably fatal other causes of brain herniation. Secondly, remember all the mucking around and obfuscation concerning SM’s brain? Damned strange. Thirdly, Chiari malformation is associated with connective tissue disease. Previously I have laid out why I think SM had a connective tissue disorder. Connective tissue disorders aren’t common so this apparent connection is intriguing.
    If I had the time I would look into Supt. Graham John Bartlett’s family tree to see if there are any contenders that fit SM.

  1402. john sanders on September 29, 2021 at 11:14 pm said:

    I recall when the gala premier of ‘Missing Pieces’ by Wayne Groome and Katherine Thomson opened in Adelaide with friends of Somerton Man including Derek, Gerry and Paul mingling with the crowd. Even the Dude of ‘Grand Theft Auto’ showed up cause he was a local and so saw the need to get contemporaneous coverage and report back his thoughts. What I don’t recall is hearing anything from another well respected Adelaidian SM fan in Clive J. Turner who should have been present and provide us with his own comentary but, alas no, not one word…Now that he’s over this way on a rare fact finder, perhaps CJ might care to account for his strange non attendance.

  1403. Clive J Turner on September 30, 2021 at 12:27 am said:

    JS: Simple answer is I was not invited

  1404. john sanders on September 30, 2021 at 3:36 am said:

    BD: Must be more Bartletts in S.A. than Nguyens Cabramatta, also a 1939 birth is no longer listed on their once free geni site. Back to David Evan Bartlett, I recall his NAA file noting non specific head scaring suggestive of some pre WW2 surgical intervention for his herhiated brain condition. While we’re with him, David moved to 78 Partridge in ’56/’57 and I note with interest that Edith (Sadie) Wytkin was still living at 75 then as Mrs. L.L. Hole. It was thee who reported former husband Les (ROK Mk 1) having taken off to Swan Reach with his new squeeze May in 1950.

  1405. john sanders on September 30, 2021 at 7:01 am said:

    CJT: neither was Tbt’s man on the scene, but he attended and did a fantastic review of the show and post viewing happy snaps of VIP attendees. No invite no excuse!

  1406. john sanders on October 1, 2021 at 9:24 am said:

    PCC Bartlett with no initial get’s around a bit from mid forties to early fifties in general street crime briefs. So does a PCC Hole, once in company with Det. G. M. Leane (R.L.’s bro). Only Sth Aust. born Hole could’ve been a cop amongst a trio of WW2 RAAF brothers was Lionel Leslie Hole, Les Wytkins replacement who didn’t serve (2 weeks in ’42). He took over at 75 Partridge St. Glenelg from memory.. Stranger things have happened.

  1407. john sanders on October 1, 2021 at 1:41 pm said:

    Mission accomplished sez Peteb , though what that mission entails is not clear. Anyhow, for what it’s worth (FA by any logical accounts) GC got in first with his evidence based Boxall/Jestyn closure details sans W.J. Moulds links.

  1408. I’ve set the puzzle, John Sanders, see how you go.

  1409. john sanders on October 2, 2021 at 10:30 am said:

    You mean a puzzle like Chuckler’s Weekly?, nah got a life to lead here. Ask Xlamb to give it a burl, she learnt all sorts of advanced puzzles from her dad Allan McIntyre.

  1410. One down. Who’s next?

  1411. john sanders on October 3, 2021 at 4:45 am said:

    Peteb: more riddles than leads to be found in your ‘puzzle’ page old man, not to mention Fitzy’s baited four liner. Getting to the heart of the matter, we appear to have as a given SM’s intent on self destruction contrary to Omar’s prophetic guide lines, in a rash move no doubt promted by Jessica’s latest rejection. How he was able to get her address from a phone number penciled atop the last blank page of his own W&T we can only wonder. Accepting death before dishonour as the only way out, Jerry penned a cheery devil may care letter coded farewell stanza for the heartless bitch to find beneath the phone number. No need to boor readers with all the gorey details of what then transpired; suffice to say our man then tore out the TS slip, placed it rolled tightly into his deep slick dick fob pocket, then having tossed the book into a parked car, hoofed it down to the beach. Thence a last sup of cynide dosed spud, a contemplating fag and Tamam Shud on his own humble terms….. Got all that digested Boss so hơw’s about the key to Rebecca, like how could Jerry be sure Jo would be able to pick up the left clues. recalling the trouble Cleland had finding the first a full of six months on, before happen-chancing to become aware of the code, both million to one chances that you seem to have omitted in your puzzler. PS: hows about the overlooked instrument in writing , pen, pencil or tooth pick in your opinion?

  1412. Her number was in the 47 phone book, plus address .. that’s very old news, available my way on the post list.
    Next.

  1413. john sanders on October 3, 2021 at 9:32 am said:

    Mr. Paul Francis Lawson MBE, to we lesser lights, the dude 747 included. A larger than life man to be sure, especially in that he had suffered with defective hearing since his teens. Didn’t stop him from voluntering his service through WW2 in an essential role caring for wounded diggers up north and attaining the rank of Sgt. Regarding his part in the SM case and of those who sought audience with him due to it, most if not all seemed somehow ignorant of Paul’s deafness and of the high honour bestowed on him way back in 1973; a modest fellow to go with the gongs it would seem……Peteb: Last Post might be a fitting salutation to an old soldier on Tbt site from one who knew him well.

  1414. john sanders on October 3, 2021 at 9:54 am said:

    Next: yeah Bonzo, but as you’ll recall, to find her address in the manner alluded to took Feltus an eternity, our Jerry didn’t have time on his side. All your news is either very old as you correctly point out, or otherwise lifted from sites like this.

  1415. john sanders on October 3, 2021 at 11:55 am said:

    Peteb said…”Thanks to John Sanders for the heads up on the ’47 S.A. phone directory” as posted first on ciphermysteries and re hashed on Tbt’s all inclusive colour spread thread on both ‘Dancing with the Dead’ and ‘Missing Pieces’ docos. Short memory what and still there as testament to original authorship what’s more.

  1416. john sanders on October 3, 2021 at 1:10 pm said:

    By downloading and reposting Paul Lawsons obituary taken from Adelaide’s Sunday News of even date on his TS/BS site, Gordon Cramer appears to have fragrantly abused copyright non authorised publication provisions clearly belonging to that organisation. Whatsmore by additionally posting other articles puting forward his ‘related’ labelling, he has shown discredit to a great man’s legacy of truth and service to his country. Shame, shame on you Gordon Cramer.

  1417. john sanders & Pete Bowes: I hate deleting comments, but I’ve deleted the last four from the pair of you.

    Get a grip, the pair of you.

  1418. john sanders on October 4, 2021 at 7:23 am said:

    104 Partridge St. Glenelg is an address given for where the Thomsons moved to after their presumed period of tenancy at 90A Moseley St. Glenelg from ’47 to ’49. As with the latter, S & M directory does not record them being at 104, listing in their stead a certain J.G. Murnane as owner occupier of many years standing and for long after our period of concern. So how did this very impressive still standing federation home come to be connected with such a flighty pair. Having researched the Thomson’s later known suburban occupancies, derived from the same reliable source, the aforesaid is the only disconnect and it is therefore a genuine puzzle in need of resolution.

  1419. john sanders on October 4, 2021 at 9:13 am said:

    Gordon: thanks for the heads up, though nothing of interest to me on the given page 8 which seems to be from a monthly news sheet that DVA sends to war buffs. Better they tacked on a dollar or two to the pensions of those adversely affected by their service. I’m not on the mailing list due to my non residential status and my bad attitude towards the bastards. Far as the photo op, it didn’t work for me but if you want to post it be my guest, but be sure to check copyright provisions before doing anything you might later regret. Not so sure on the 217178 reference, the 3RAR first tour book gives 21717 which can’t be right either 2192446 is what they gave me when I signed up in early ’66..Cheers js

  1420. Clive J Turner on October 4, 2021 at 11:19 am said:

    JS: Look on TROVE, “The Advertiser” 3 Mar 1951 Adverts on pages 18 & 19. Same newspaper on 16 Jun 1951 Pages 12 & 13.

  1421. john sanders on October 4, 2021 at 1:44 pm said:

    Thanks Clive prompt too. I was thinking of postal redirection orders like Miss J & E Thomson of Methodist Church res. Bath Street, but the change of phone number at 104 Partridge with long term occupiers doesn’t fit any scenario I can recall. It wouldn’t work with for sale ads either unless there be arrangements with house holders, fact is old Prosper seems to have been a loner, certainly later in life. Got me stumped.

  1422. john sanders on October 4, 2021 at 2:40 pm said:

    Old George Murnane, 1865/1955 wife Christina 1890/1960 and three girls were at 104 Partridge forever, pure as the driven and no chance of association with our Thomsons 50/51 in flim flam deals me thinks.. Interestingly J.Thomson lived at 40 Penzance, the next parallel St. after the war and left without any trace of a re-up in 1947 according to S&M. So it’s possible for it to have been yet an earlier abode for Jessica on arrival in S.A.

  1423. john sanders on October 5, 2021 at 7:51 am said:

    In re the Thomson 7 Main Street, Henley Beach sale and want ads., I can’t see any potential customer hoofing it out to the given addess to find it possibly unattended or else the deal not worth the effort. So I’m guessing that the rag’s small ads dept. Must have provided an intermediary customer service to make it feasable, ie. by them providing either or both parties with mutual contact links thus enabling the deals to proceed. That would be one solution, but as for the alternate form, I still can’t figure how it works when the phone number and addess are not always in sync as seems to have been the case, either that or the vendor was not a resident thereof. Someone help me out, I’ve yet to run a ad or answer one for that matter.

  1424. john sanders on October 5, 2021 at 11:06 pm said:

    We now have a good idea about the large Main and Partridge St. addresses both occupied by old preople in 1947 who may have needed home care, even a live in nursing attendant, eg. Mrs. Jessie Seary who had lost her husband of fifty years in ’39 was resident in 1947 before Miss R. Ward, was in her mid eighties, likewise Mr. Murnane was of a similar vintage. Our Sister J.E.Thomson could have been a carer to both and having gained some good level of trust, ran Prosper’s business from both address with the occupants oblivious or unphased by such doings…Looks like former S.A. AG john Rau’s mum and dad lived two doors up from the old ladies at 11 Main St. through the forties and up until two years before his birth in 1959. No wonder you can’t get anything on his family background, including of course his paternal gran Margaret Keane who may well have nursed the wiley barister before her passing in the sixties.

  1425. milongal on October 6, 2021 at 10:13 pm said:

    Some of Prosper’s ads are trying to sell fridges and the like…..

    Suppose Jess is caring for people (as you suggest) and as they downsize and/or move off to homes Prosper is pinching their white goods (or alternatively makes some sort of legit deal with them) and selling them for cars. No point lugging the fridge around to Moseley St, have the punter pick it up from the correct address.

  1426. john sanders on October 7, 2021 at 8:20 am said:

    milongal: I can imagine a devious nurse carer setting up a front purely around pinching white goods and other goodies from her helpless charges but, why must unkind people always put shit on Prosper too. Do you really think an ex AIF man with such solid credentials would stoop to such a low caper as being an accessory.

  1427. milongal on October 7, 2021 at 8:04 pm said:

    I think it’s a little naive to think someone is honest purely because they were in the military. I’ve worked with several current and ex-Defence people who I’d be more than a little nervous leaving alone with anything of even the slightest value – in fact at least one I would count my fingers after I shook hands with him (I’ve also worked with some solid ex-military as well – but from what I’ve seen, the military experience itself doesn’t seem to in and of itself solidify someone’s character).

    That said I did leave you an out that he could have been making legit deals to sell people’s stuff if it makes you more comfortable.

  1428. john sanders on October 7, 2021 at 10:50 pm said:

    milongal: ermm…I know it ain’t like me son but I was being mildy facetious, man was never AIF though claimed to be in his ads. I wouldn’t put it past the pair to be into old family heirlooms, jewellery, silverware, porcellan, glassware and top notch stuff for the collectors market plus any convertable deads or bonds whatever. That of course is what the pair were up to and how they became wealthy by the fifties. Prosper using all the cagey skills taught to him when working for the US Burch Bros. and their Empire Art scams back before the war that he never attended.

  1429. john sanders on October 10, 2021 at 2:37 pm said:

    With great fanfare way back in 2016 Gordon announced, thanks to Len Brown and supported by some very exacting lens work, that he had finally located Jestyn’s phone number. Concealed twixt two narrow juttings lower left of a dark area atop the code page and quite clear to anyone with Xray vision and good imagination. In 2018 again with assistance of Browny he told an ‘associate’ (alter ego) that the nurse’s number might actually be located beneath the code itself and not where he imagined it to be, though did not disclose exactly where for fear that it might be pounced on by other pretenders. Just to-day GC posted with his standard reversal that the number had apparently moved, this time to a position north by north east of it’s original position. Len Brown was only credited with ‘tiny writing’ (his own?) this time around, most acclaim belonging to the master’s fine lens manipulations. I’m sure others will recall their own favourite X3239 locations eg., left of the letter P centre right of the code, along the arms and curves of various other letters or even on Major Mould’s Boxall verse 70 inscription etc., etc. What the heck it’s all in fun; Indeed indeed it is!

  1430. milongal on October 10, 2021 at 11:48 pm said:

    At the risk of looking even more silly, I thought he was (second) AIF ?

  1431. john sanders on October 11, 2021 at 7:51 am said:

    milongal: In theory you’re quite correct, having a prefix ‘VX’ meant that you were AIF and a volunteer for Active Service in a war theatre, which P. Mc. Thomson obviously never signed up for. To be called ex AIF was to be considered a returned front line soldier who’d fought for King’n country and earned favouritism over those who didn’t ie. your everyday part time CMF or certain militia men who were either too old to fight or else were engaged in an essential home service. Prosper spent most of his eighteen months in hospital, on sick call or taking recouperative leave to go fruit picking according to his file. The fellow was not of much value all round but doesn’t seem to have had the wherewithall to cause physical harm to some bushie eating a pastie outside his Moseley St. digs, a furlong or two from where he was found carked next morn.

  1432. john sanders on October 13, 2021 at 4:15 am said:

    Any fast deteriorating Unknown Man punters in need of a ‘you-beaut’ therapeutic recliner, Kate’s mates Gerry & Lesley Feltus have just announced opening of their up-market custom Posture Care Chair showroom at 270 Angas St. Adelaide (near CIB ’48 office). GC’s old school detective bullshitter looks in great shape from the online promo pics, so why not swing by and say Hi. Clive, Kyal, Ruth, dude 747 and other crow eaters. Try Hard Talking Gerry for the very latest bone shaking news from TCN Channel 9/Newscorp Exhumations who are no doubt also helping out with his top downtown rent.

  1433. john sanders on October 13, 2021 at 5:32 am said:

    ….In the meantime South Australian Parliament (LH) is a total mess and Hollering for a Marshall (70s battery ad) ain’t likely to up the amperage. Premier Marshall says today that politicing be more important than worrying about mucking Covid 19 after all. As for SM’s best friend Queen Vickie Chapman AG., she’s now facing a serious government inquiry over some biased decision on a deep water port over KI somewhere which could see her back on the island without a job real quick and soon. What’s left of our man’s remains (?) will likely be stuffed into a wooden pencil box and tossed unceremoniously back down the hole whence he came, never to be heard from again. Hope Gerry gets to keep one of his fancy recliners when News Corp forecloses on his new shop premises.

  1434. john sanders on October 14, 2021 at 5:09 am said:

    Some of the originals, such as Prof. Abbott will recall Feltus’ use of substitute names of his own invention supposedly to honour a non disclosure agreement made by police and two of those concerned, John Freeman and Sister Thomson. The lie to this ruse, which Gerry maintains as an unbreakable pledge, is that the book treats others similarly, they not being subject to any so called binding oaths. For instance we have Prosper Thomson as Prestige Johnson and Robyn nee Boxall known to readers simply as Alf’s daughter Lesley, like Lesley Feltus of ‘Posture Care Chairs’ Adelaide. My own view is that when setting out to write his histerical novel the old school suit liased with Jessica’s daughter Katherine, hence the agreement not to name mum & dad directly. The Francis/Freeman fiasco might be put simply as an ill advised attempt to ‘fool all the people all the time’ truth be known.

  1435. Now here’s a thought: you don’t buy a poisoned pasty at the local, late night pie shop.

  1436. john sanders on October 14, 2021 at 9:23 am said:

    Indeed, indeed: yet another thought: why won’t the local, late night pie shop let you buy a poisoned pasty. I happen to have a meeting tomorrow which may clear the air so folks can munch on their maggot bag without fear of ingesting soylent green. Whatsmore the socially obedient fully vaxxed can feel free to fart without a mask….Watch this space

  1437. milongal on October 14, 2021 at 9:21 pm said:

    One of PB’s recent posts poses “Why didn’t he use the phone?”

    I think this has been mentioned before, but…..
    What if he did? What if he originally planned to go to Henley to find her, and after ringing her discovered she lived at Glenelg and changed plans to the bus?

  1438. Clive J Turner on October 15, 2021 at 10:10 am said:

    I don’t suppose that Detective Canney or, anyone else in SAPOL thought of checking the telephone calls to 90A with the PMG? Who knows what might have been discovered.

  1439. john sanders on October 15, 2021 at 10:51 pm said:

    HMV: In those days and still, police had/have no carte blanch on intrusions like checking incoming phone call without a very good cause such as imminent disaster or life threatening situations calamity. Likewise tracihg private phone numbers could not be undertaken willy nilly for purpose of low level general crime police inquiries.

  1440. john sanders on October 17, 2021 at 8:16 am said:

    If anyone has recently visited Somerton Man Ultimate Guide, the last few posts appear confounding, illogical and potentially libelous to me. Perhaps someone with a clearer perspective of the proposition being tauted might care to make an unbiased evaluation. Seems that the main thrust proposes Roma Egan getting herself potted by Somerton Man to begat Robin Thomson, then by the latter who inturn fathered Derek’s ace-in-the-hole (so to speak) Rachel. It’s little wonder that devious blogger Kyal be a self confessed insomniac.

  1441. John Sanders: it’s certainly not causing me to lose any sleep. I’d have thought most blogs would be a cure for insomnia rather than a cause. :-/

  1442. john sanders on October 27, 2021 at 6:23 am said:

    Ex Det. Sgt.Gerry Feltus, proprietor of ‘Posture Care Chairs’ a devoted Papist of the Carmelite barefoot order or similar, is also known for his Unknown Man historical publication. I seem to recall that the book’s back cover includes a number which the author claims as being for artistic reasons only. Said number W4890, along with another L*5888, appear as being period telephonic links to the old Brenan Theresian Carmelite Hall annex to St. Vincents Hospital Melbourne. Nice fit though coincidence of course; am now searching old Adelaide directories for a T. Keane, known to have been an occupant of Commonwealth Bank Building 96/100 King William St. In the 30s which may need some help.

  1443. john sanders on November 1, 2021 at 6:13 am said:

    Bell, yair Bozo dunno about Gordon, but I hear the bastard too. Not like your old fashioned Czech alarm clock jingle jangle, more like a solemn one tone death knell if you be wanting my honest bi partisan opinion.

  1444. john sanders on November 1, 2021 at 12:35 pm said:

    Looks like our chop and change merchant has taken his question to his mentor GC re ringing bells down, should have expected it. My blunder. Sorry folks.

  1445. john sanders on November 10, 2021 at 5:12 am said:

    Latest BS/TS blog outlining 16 points for successful tradecraft outcomes is just a diversional ploy for Cramer’s main purpose of boasting his blog’s time honoured success in facilitating all facets (fantasies and faux pas) in the Somerton Man case. One based on absolute truthfulness, dedication and professionalism;in addition to pressing home the amateurish incomptence of its rival also ran SM dedicated blog sites the likes of Tomsbytwo, Big Footy and Anemptyglass, who apparently provide ready cart blanche access to trolls for their evil pursuits……Good on you Gordon, with truthful outpouring such as yours, who needs false testimony.

  1446. milongal on November 10, 2021 at 7:47 pm said:

    @JS: Gave up on that site ages ago. Much as I found GC’s blind double-down on demonstrably flawed guesses, I think you need to apply Hanlon’s Razor here (loosely don’t assume malice where over stupidity).

  1447. milongal on November 16, 2021 at 2:32 am said:

    Have to say I like Pete’s latest. He seems to be of a view (that I’ve long had) that we don’t know half as much as people seem to think. Although I’d take it a fraction further.
    – We don’t know that he had caught the bus that day
    – We don’t know that he had been in the Adelaide Railway Station that day
    – We don’t know that the suitcase was his in fact….
    – We don’t know the clothes he was wearing was his (the suitcase tenuously links to the clothes)
    – We don’t even know that the TS slip was his (and not some previous owner of the pants)
    – We don’t know if he knew Prosper or Jess
    – We don’t really know that the book the coppers were given was really the one that TS came from

    I think I’ve got a more complete list elsewhere…..but I think if we start with a “what we know” it might be more helpful (it’s a smaller list). DA once compiled such a list…..but looking at it now a lot of the items are “we assume…”
    One of the big problems with many people’s storylines is that they report the conclusion, not the evidence (e.g. He caught the St Leonards bus – we don’t actually know this. We know he had a ticket for the St Leonards service, and we know that the *authorities say* that that ticket had been sold on the 11:15 service somewhere between Railway Station and West/South Tce – but we don’t know that HE used it (and we can’t even verify the authorities had properly traced it back) etc, etc, usw….

  1448. milongal: yeah, but it’s easy to point out that we know almost nothing for certain, that’s how things have been since the start. Far more difficult to come up with testable hypotheses and ideas for new historical sources to check. Ho hum etc.

  1449. Clive J. Turner on November 16, 2021 at 11:28 pm said:

    Too many assumptions, Too few concrete facts. i.e. You would have thought that someone in Adelaide would have recognised him, especially if he didn’t wear a hat?
    If he was a stranger in Adelaide, he would have asked for directions? We don’t even know for certain that the suitcase at the station belonged to him. How/when did he arrive at the steps down to the seawall? How come his shoes, he wore, were so clean? etc, etc

  1450. john sanders on November 17, 2021 at 6:58 am said:

    NP: That’s three against one by my count soTbt’s riveting status quo rules OK…along with the Pancho/Gordon/Zedex generated insult of the day which doesn’t get a guernsey in my ever handy Funkenwagnel.

  1451. john sanders on November 17, 2021 at 11:49 pm said:

    GC: Wow did not expect that !! But that’s only a small part of the story, cant wait to hear more..on latest revelation that Hay micro code bank note’s creator Georg(e) Adams maybe maternaly rooted with ‘The Adams Family’, (Sam-John-Quincy) and perhaps even our own Thomsons of Moseley St. thereaby. Makes a good case for espionage involvement in Jerry Somerton’s sad demise more unlikely than ever IMO..Good on Zedex (Club Legend) for his input in this most unlikely load of utter crap. PS one thing that the John Adams and Thomas Jefferson did in unison was to die on the very same day, 4th July no less (?)…from memory

  1452. milongal on November 18, 2021 at 1:01 am said:

    @NP: Agree – which is why I liked your original Pruzinski speculation – it wasn’t perfect, but it covered a lot of unknowns.
    In particular, it would seem to potentially cover the Rubaiyat (we might extrapolate that it wasn’t an ID per se’, but something more like a marker (“Steal the Minx on Jetty Road – I’ve chucked the Rubaiyat onto the back seat” – except then there’s no need for him to kep the S slip). My problem (I guess) has always been the lack of verifiable fact – and most speculation begins with the “traditional” story of “man arrives in Adelaide that morning” (I take Clive’s point that it’s likely he wasn’t a local because we wasn’t id’d, but that doesn’t mean he’d just arrived).

    @Clive – yeap, That hat might be an interesting one. He went unnoticed so perhaps he had a hat IF he travelled on the bus…..but at what point did it go AWOL? Although another thought about being unnoticed (which I may have raised before) is that IF he travelled on public transport (pedantic: I think technically they weren’t public back then but ho hum) perhaps he wasn’t travelling alone. The ticket clerk at the station was asked whether he remembered selling a man that ticket; the bus driver was asked similar…..so you might not immediately recall selling to a pair of people (or even a group) – even if there was something odd all the same. The polished shoes bug me too – we’ve speculated in the past that the king tide must have reached the body (if it was there around 4:30), but there’s no salt staining on the shoes. Further, any walking on the beach would scuff them up pretty quick (or at least make them sandy), so it seems reasonable that IF he got to the beach off his own steam, he likely came down the steps he was found near.
    But all that said, I do wonder whether the lack of people coming forward is simply because the photos in the paper look too different. I’ve always wondered about the pictures GC had (which to me more closely resemble the bust) that don’t really look like the pictures propagated in the media (I’m not suggesting anything malicious, just that post-autopsy the face looks sufficiently different to be dismissed) – of course, the problem here is that it still suggests “out of towner”, because we haven’ got an obvious missing person candidate….

    I also wonder (I’m forgetting the timeline) whether that was part of Jestyn’s reaction – from the pictures in the paper she thought it was (or wasn’t) a specific person, and was rather taken aback that the bust was someone else entirely….

    So maybe as well as a “What we know” list we also need a “what seems peculiar” list (some less than others)….e.g.
    – presence of multiple transport fares
    – lack of hat
    – lack of wallet
    – lack of socks in suitcase
    – TS slip (maybe more broadly the Rubaiyat, including timeline, “code” etc)
    – Jestyn and Alf
    – Shiny Shoes
    – Possibly conflicting narratives (I’ve often been dismissive of this, but maybe it bears some scratching)
    -ec, etc, blah, blah, blah

  1453. john sanders on November 18, 2021 at 4:47 am said:

    Refering to TS/BS latest litany of lies vis. SM’s Remains Hypothesis, Gordon Cramer was wont to score points on poor process namely re tracking of the body from beach to burial…The following excerpt taken from the 1949 death inquest of the body found on Somerton Beach 1st Dec.1948 is the Sworn testimony of expert police witness James Patrick Durham;

    On Dec. 3rd, 1948 in company with Mounted Constable Knight I went to the City Morgue Adelaide and I was pointed out a body by MC Knight who said “THIS IS THE BODY FOUND ON SOMERTON BEACH. I PHOTOGRAPHED THE BODY FULL FACE AND SIDE FACE”…..

    As opposed to the that of un Sworn false testimony assertions of a British born confidence man. Readers be the judge Durham v. Cramer on truther and fraud.

    On 17th November, 2021 Christopher .G. Cramer said. “Similarly when Jimmy Durham took the photographs and fingerprints of the body, there is NO RECORD OF ANYONE IDENTIFYING THAT BODY TO HIM AS BEING THE MAN FOUND ON S9MERTON BEACH”.

  1454. john sanders on November 18, 2021 at 12:33 pm said:

    As far as we can reasonably tell, in total contrast to what our resident fake police procedural ‘expert’ would have us believe is, that from go to woe, the Somerton Man’s remains were always under close scrutiny with a dilligence required by law. PC Scan Sutherland, who attended the crime scene along with Dets. Strangway and Gollan, reported to the Coroner ASAP as was his duty and remained close throughout the investigation. He oversaw the whole process from immediate post discovery to attendance at the autopsy and later identified SM prior to interment, attending the subsequent funeral as tasked. Can’t ask more than that Gordon!!

  1455. Clive J. Turner on November 19, 2021 at 6:33 am said:

    Milongal, It’s certainly intriguing whichever way you look at it. If the X3239 telephone number had not been found on the Code page, we would never have known about Jessie. What are the chances that Jessie’s viewing of the bust, was just a theatrical performance for the benefit of the police and PL? She didn’t receive an Oscar, nor was she further questioned by the police, which, in hindsight seems strange?

  1456. milongal on November 19, 2021 at 9:20 am said:

    @Clive: the whole Jessie connexion is strange. Retrospectively we see how GF finds Sister Thomson (and there might be good reason she’d want to be listed against that number), but that’s not the mechanism the police at the time would have used – so it seems she was actually the line subscriber (rather than Thomson), although we’d expect it to be Prosper’s house, not hers (especially since she’s adopted Prosper’s surname by then). The fact they didn’t probe further is most interesting….it suggests their opinion of her reaction wasn’t wuite the same as Lawsons (maybe it was acting and they picked it, or maybe they were used to reactions like that, or maybe something else). I find Jess one of those perplexing things that cause as much problem whether we want to consider them involved or not involved (but to be honest there’s probably about 100 things in the case that similarly make just as little sense included or excluded…..)

  1457. john sanders on November 19, 2021 at 2:02 pm said:

    Clive: no Oscar but, she did deserve an Occams Razor for a great one liner “This is above the S.A. Police”. I’m pretty sure in err on her not having been further questioned by the police; she seems to have made a contrary claim, also to Jerry Feltus as logged in his novel.

  1458. john sanders on November 21, 2021 at 1:16 pm said:

    Might be worth a well spotted mention dunno?. From an NAA 1949 report on the NAA carley float body incident, Australian Chief of Naval Intelligence at the time, Captain George Oldham, poured cold water on any suggestion of the Chrismas Island body being crew of HMAS Sydney. Man in question, a later to be most highly decorated rear Admiral, hailed from Glenelg and his covering memo of 1949 suggests that he may well have been Sapol’s navy cipher expert on the TS code as well. I’ll check back and report on whether he was on home leave in July of that year.

  1459. john sanders on November 21, 2021 at 2:24 pm said:

    Good chance George Oldham took home leave to visit his ailing widowed mum Cathy from Navy HQ Melbourne prior to taking operational command of Flagship Australia thence aircraft carrier Sydney from October ’49 for extended service in the Korean campaign. See his fine record of service in Aust. Biographies.

  1460. Peter Davidson on November 23, 2021 at 3:30 am said:

    One hopes that Oldham was a better expert at ciphers than he was on his expertise on rescue equipment provisioned to naval vessels.

    https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/andrew-gee/media-releases/unknown-hmas-sydney-ii-sailor-named-after-80-years

    Considering there’s a nice picture of the very same Carley float that Clark used sitting on the stern of HMAS Sydney taken on 4/9/1941 at awn.gov.au/collection/C1018129

  1461. john sanders on November 23, 2021 at 9:26 am said:

    Peter Davidson: might need a little more info for yiur Carley Float site. The one you gave doesn’t get me onto the stern of HMAS Sydney mate.

  1462. john sanders on November 23, 2021 at 12:51 pm said:

    I must say I’ve yet to see a Christian funeral, apart from one hastily convened due to circumstances beyond control, where a body was deliberately placed facing downwards to the netherworld as opposed to the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes we know that the Chrismas Island body assumedly that of a gentile, came ashore in a more or less scrunched fetal position which can be varified by numerous witness accounts. However one might reasonably presume that the attending physician and assisting locals would have taken the time and had the inclination to at least rearrange his mortal remains. This being to making them more presentable for a decent and fitting burial according to Christian rites…Something about the whole accepted history and subsequent exhumation many years later doesn’t add up.

  1463. john sanders on November 24, 2021 at 12:14 am said:

    Peter Davidson: by-passing your coded site co-ordinates I found the photo of 4/9/41 which depicts H.M.A.S Sydney heading out of Port Jackson with SS Queens Mary and Elizabeth in her wake. The small triangular land feature in the frame is likely to be Clark Island which is pure coincidence. I take it that you identify the smaller of three carley floats on her stern quarter deck as being “the very same float that Clark used..” however, the all important distinctive hull number 2 as mentioned in early reports by observers on Christmas Island at the tiime, is not depicted in your cited shot. Perhaps you might re appraise the factual basis for said assertions and report back for the record.

  1464. john sanders on November 25, 2021 at 8:38 am said:

    PeteDavo: while you’re figuring where No 2 carley float was likely to have been stowed on board the Sydney, I’ve dug up info that may assist you and GC with delving into George Adams familial links to dead Presidents. Good ol’ boy from Tucson Arizona name of Kirt Schall Adams might like to connect with descendants of the above, he being a nephew of Georg Adams dec. off the Dunerra 1940 and WW2 internee of hut 24, camp 7 Hay c/o Liverpool (?) Australia. I’m thinking if you could get your boss’s daughter Lorraine F. to swing by, say Howdy to Kirt and see what gives; Could be the big breakthrough you’se are looking for..

  1465. john sanders on November 25, 2021 at 11:17 pm said:

    …..and a correction for Gordon’s faux pas in claiming..”it was most unusuual for the United States to allow so called ‘enemy aliens’ passage through their Panama Canal zone”. He is as usual out of his depth historically, a caution to be sure poor chap, in that friend Teltscher was no more an enemy alien to the US than Panama’s fascist President Arias; though more to the point, they were not at war in mid 1941 so George was home free whatever his status with belligerents at that time.

  1466. john sanders on November 26, 2021 at 11:45 pm said:

    PeteDavo: should you wish to touch base with the Furness family of Arizona in hopes that contact with Kirt Adams can succeed, best advice is to seek help from your boss who is surely in close contact with them, they being family and all. Just make sure that Lorraine doesn’t confuse him with Kirk Adams, the former Arizona House Speaker out of Mesa, a GOP LDS, who likely knows as much about our particular Adams family as Gordon knows about wartime Sydney/GB shipping route contingencies or, much about the conflct at all, ie., it was between the Allies and Axis powers 1939/45.

  1467. milongal on November 28, 2021 at 8:38 pm said:

    @JS – Some people don’t bother with facts and when challenged just double down with “but what would you know”. Sometimes I’ve wondered whether my challenges to his Fedosimov ideas just drove those ideas even more so.
    Not sure whether it’s just normal conspiracy theorist stuff (once you start to believe there’s some sort of conspiracy, then any anomaly is easily dimissed as “covered up as part of the conspiracy”) or whether there’s some extra special attempt to create their own facts based on hearsay and interpreting language any which way you please….

  1468. john sanders on November 29, 2021 at 9:44 am said:

    milongal: was it just coincidence or your inbuilt ESP coming out. Anyhow you sure caught Peteb’s famously branded ‘CHARLATAN’ Chris G. Cramer out. Now back on the blood trail of ‘his’ still unaccounted for chompers a-plenty Pavel Fedosimov @ Jerry D. Somerton. Well (pre) spotted indeed, indeed.

  1469. milongal on November 29, 2021 at 10:20 pm said:
      @PB – devil’s advocate – How sure are we the bus/train tickets were purchased that morning.
      If you were asked “When were these tickets purchased” you would approach the task a particular way.
      If, on the other hand, you were asked “Can you verify these were purchased on 30/11”, then you might find some indication that they were purchased the day before (or some other time), but you dismiss it (and even manage to “find” a book-keeping error that corrects it to 30/11).

      Purely speculative – this is more an example of what COULD happen rather than any assertion about what DID happen.
      The railway process (as I understand it) involved recording sequences numbers and then ruling a line at the end of the shift (or at the conclusion of the day – not sure which). Suppose someone forgot to rule the line. When asked to show the ticket came from 30/11 you discover that one (or more) daily sign offs are missing. You recollect that you probably sold about X number of Henley tickets and back track it. Turns out that puts the ticket on the 29th – so maybe your recollection is flawed – better put that rule a bit further back. Even less clumsy, suppose you begin a shift and a short time later you realise yesterday’s clerk didn’t record yesterday’s ticket sequence. Now we need to think back how many Henley ticket’s we’ve sold this morning….
      Of course, if these numbers were for accounting purposes (as opposed to “mindless busy-work”) the missing rule can only be there so long until upstairs asks – but if they tried to resolve them weekly (rather than daily) then it’s easy to imagine certain inaccuracies.

      Side story: Many years ago when I was a bus driver I was doing a New Year’s Eve shift. Fares were not collected on NYE, so the crouzet system couldn’t count ticket validations. We were given a paper spreadsheet to record numbers on different shifts. Because the ticket machine wasn’t in use, I logged onto it and used a manual override to increment each passenger (so I didn’t have to remember the numbers), but speaking to other drivers about how they counted passengers a good number of them said “guesstimate”….Rinse and repeat

      Similar with Footy express (which was ticketed with paper tickets). I remember doing an Alberton to Footy Park run. From memory, there were 2 buses and 3 or 4 runs (I can’t remember if we both did 2 runs, or if one of us did 1). Unlike some services (which ran a single run with the driver selling tickets) we had a supervisor selling tickets at Alberton – but it meant they didn’t know how many passengers were on each run (something they cared about in terms of future planning, I think). Again, I was required to record the number of passengers on each journey (and again on the return runs). The accuracy of the actual records was bodgey at best – and any numbers that didn’t make sense (e.g. more travellers than tickets sold) was simply dismissed as “oops”.

      Even more recently I had a role where I thought a certain level of record keeping was important. After a particular issue, we flagged with another agency that the details of one particular person were inconsistent/wrong/other – and I was surprised at the apathetic “add it to the list of thousands” response we got.

      In any case, I have worked inside and alongside enough Government departments to know that record keeping often is nowhere near as accurate as it should be. Worse still, many insiders are scared to give answers that might upset their superiors – “I don’t know” or “we can’t tell” are never used, and there is often an obvious confirmation biased when asked to “confirm” something (I have literally had conversations with people when they come up with certain results where they say something along the lines of “The system was wrong and didn’t show what they were asking…I think it was for _reasons_….but I’ve fixed it up now”).

      While we’re on the buses, I’m interested how the bus shifts worked back then. In my time, we got a run sheet that would see us doing multiple different routes:
      – Take a Rigid bus, and depart Port Adelaide 8:14 showing 808 (Not in Service) to West Lakes Interchange.
      – Set STC code 1395 (155 City, via Port Road), and Depart West Lakes at 8:24 (then various time points from memory at Albert Park, Woodville Rd and somewhere near South Rd).
      – B2 North Tce, Set STC Code 858 (145 Glen Osmond, via Burnside)
      ….etc

      I *think* at that time it was a bit different, though. I think firstly it’s likely that buses were simply assigned to 1 route all day. Secondly (and I’m really not sure if this was the case), you may have a marshall (or equivalent) at the terminus who would set the buses off (roughly in the order they arrived). So if you had a full load and were overtaken by the service behind, they would potentially leave before you). Once again, however, we have the conductor keeping track of tickets (originally I thought this was Section based, but I think the reason he knew the Section 1 tickets was because they sold more expensive tickets in section 1 than along the rest of the route. Even so, though, we’re relying on the accuracy of his record keeping to conclude that that ticket was sold that day, at that time, and on that particular service.

      By all means, speculate about the tickets, but don’t get too caught up in them not making sense – there are literally* squillions** of explanations (some more cromulent*** than others) on why they might seem contradictory.

      *or maybe not
      ** legit quantity
      ***legit word

  1470. john sanders on November 30, 2021 at 9:42 am said:

    Dunera…Derna…Danetta.., likely part of a sequencing encryption code to chill all compliant dupes seeing connections to a spy-fi conspiratorial sanctioned KGB hit with it’s sad ending still a mystery whatsmore. Top performances by Tibor Kaldor, Georg Teltscher, a pair of US dead presidents John & Qunicy with a founding father, all named Adams, There was the successfully targeted KGB cipher expert Pavel Fedosimov, plus the supporting cast in Sister J. E. Thomson, Lt. Alfred Boxall and Major William Jestyn Moulds OBM all of the Loyal Australian Ship Spotter Corps, along with 100 ex Nazi rocket scientists of SAlisbury WRE. Those above named being connected with distribution of Japanese payment scrip and tons of Hay internment camp funny money to disrupt the Batavian separatist movement of ’47/48. The scheme was devised by T.T. a pretty Dutch agent hooked up with an MI5 dud fuck, but ably assisted by distant relatives from Glenelg named Sprogg. Her scheme was uncovered by Peteb and one of GCs other all nonsence AfIO affilliates who shall remain internally nameless, Details of the operation including no fault takedown is classified as ‘Top Secet’ & ‘no need to know’ so sorry about that folks.

  1471. john sanders on November 30, 2021 at 1:08 pm said:

    Peteb: Good on you Ruth, your new found blunt honesty is to be commended, and better late than never in my humble etc..

  1472. john sanders on December 1, 2021 at 7:15 am said:

    JEstyn: ‘Her tremendous Courage’ versus PETeb: ‘His Stupendous Cock-up’ in refering to Jessica’s own loving daughter Kate as “Harkness’ step sister”. No joking, just now over in Bozo land and whatsmore the clown repeated it, the topic being his tired old re take on JEstyn’s interviews with Feltus, Littlemore, Canney plus Daughter Kate’s follow-up on 60 minutes….Surely we’re being set up by our cagey old conman; or has ‘auldtimers’ finally caught up with the bum.

  1473. john sanders on December 1, 2021 at 11:36 am said:

    Our poor sorry son has taken care of the second cock-up in fine order but he’s yet to take care of the first. So we’re left with an even bigger conundrum. Folks unfamiliar with his style must now be wondering what gives with JEstyn’s true relationship with Kate, daughter or step sister, take your pick and take pics of Peteb’s last post before he picks it up, makes the correction and carries on as usual. SNAFU…..

  1474. john sanders on December 1, 2021 at 10:02 pm said:

    Now he’s attendend to the embarrasing ‘Kate JEStyn step sister’ stuff up, Pete might do me the courtesy of a hearty ‘good on you arsehole’ for bringing it to his attention, the heads up would be a pleasant surprise.

  1475. john sanders on December 2, 2021 at 12:34 pm said:

    Peteb: I’ll be mighty pleased to convey your recenthastily deleted message to my Bundjelung people of the northern rivers for adjucation of tribal elders accirdingly. They’re sure to take the Federal pfella’s lack of tact and respect with grace and foregiveness in keeping with their rites. YOU BETCHA BOZO.

  1476. john sanders on December 6, 2021 at 4:27 am said:

    Peteb: not intending to further sully a man’s reputation but, methinks you’ll find that the lady accompanying Musgrave to Clifton Gardens on both 1945 meetings with Alf Boxall, besides Jestyn, was her friend Joy ‘big but nice’ and not his wife as you contend…Gotta be careful in this game where correct Christian names are all important and facts are preferred over fiction or downright lies.
    Note: for you, stuff the uninitiated, Musgrave was Thomas Edmund not “Pete”.

  1477. john sanders on December 6, 2021 at 12:56 pm said:

    To put things into a clearer light, Tom Musgrave and Alf Boxall were both transfered to 13 water transport Georges Head from SME Casula LHQ on 20th June 1945 to start up their instruction course. Tom was married to Heather Jean Morris known as Jean and the couple eventually having three kids, poor lady dieing in 1961 aged forty, so when John Ruffles interviewed Tom in ’77 he lied about his single status in ’45. Not important that he was a cad, but more relevant that their flirtation with the nurses? at Clifton Gardens was indeed fleeting. Boxall being sent up north on 12th September and Tom to Brisbane the next month. As we’re aware Alf didn’t get home again until October 1946, so he and Jestyn could not have been cavorting when Robin was conceived in December. That’s right Bozo if you hadn’t twigged, Jessica didn’t deliver until 20th June, (not July) 1946 so Alf get’s a pass on that one which does allow for speculation on who the dad may have been. Not some Rusky off the Derna that’s for certain, which opens up a myriad of possible suspects for us to pick from such as Tibor who was running loose in Melbourne or one of the brothers Thomson including Prosper himself.

  1478. john sanders on December 6, 2021 at 1:03 pm said:

    20/6/47 was Robin’s birthday as given by his sister Kate who should know, not ’46 as wrongly stated above, blunder.

  1479. john sanders on December 6, 2021 at 10:32 pm said:

    Fluffed it twice for attention, Robin”s birthday was 10th June, 1947 and that would close any window of opportunity for Alf Boxall unless Jestyn came early.

  1480. john sanders on December 7, 2021 at 12:48 am said:

    For those who can smile through covid face masks yet still enjoy a good belly laugh, this post, spotted on Tbt blog will crack you up with it’s subtle humour and deliberate errors of fact, courtesy ‘Tom’ Bowes.

    Clive, it would seem Jessica was close to PETE Musgrave and his WIFE, seeing as she accompanied them to Clifton Gardens hotel on one occasion when Boxall was there, then, on her second visit, she came alone with MULGRAVE, that being the case it wouldn’t be surprising if the MUGRAVE’s knew a fair bit about her circumstances.
    Note: for the uninitiated, Musgrave was ‘the other instructor’ mentioned in the interview, and his WIFE JOY, was a nurse.

  1481. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 7, 2021 at 2:32 pm said:

    John Sanders
    In the text 4 verses. Is written :
    Báj. Sup. Ten. i. Pták. Tu. Tři. ( Czech language )

    Myth. Sup. This. and. Bird. Here. Three. ( English ).

    Meaning. Jessica writes that substitution 3 is used.
    That is, the same supstitution as MS – 408 is used.

    ( the word SUP, means Substitution ).

  1482. John and ants.
    If only a scientist and Diane didn´t understand . So let´s look at page 2r Manuscript Voynich . There he has a substitution of 3. The root is the base of the plant. Without a root, no plant can emerge. The root is made of the letters C,G,S,L. The flower means the number 3.
    No word can be formed without a letter. The letter is therefore the basic of the word. This is meaning of page 2r.
    Of course, it is also written inthe text of the manuscript. In the Czech language.

    Substitution number 3 = C,G,S,L.

  1483. milongal on December 7, 2021 at 9:10 pm said:

    And of course the reason the Fuzz/Government failed to do most of those things is because it took them so long to think this was anything other than an uncollected body that was going to resolve itself.

    Insert my normal rant about collective incompetence, confirmation bias and the machinations of Government departments…..

    Short Version: By the time they took things seriously they were retrospectively asking different parties to prove a particular conclusion. And at that point, any normal evidence-gathering goes out the window, as potential discrepancies are adjusted to fit the narrative.

  1484. milongal on December 7, 2021 at 9:39 pm said:

    True story (some details deliberately vague):
    I nearly had to testify for ACLEI once (it didn’t end up going to court). Essentially they wanted to know what someone had accessed on a system, and my response was “Here’s the logs that show they accessed the system on a day they weren’t working, but we can’t see what they accessed” (clearly long before modern systems which often have far more detailed logging). For them, this happened to be enough, because they were trying to prosecute for “unauthorized access” (so it only mattered that they’d touched the system when they shouldn’t, irrespective of the data they may or may not have looked up). But interestingly, a lot of my colleagues had managed a much more interesting narrative into the same log files – which literally only showed a log on and a log off (they’d inserted speculation about how things must have been accessed given the time frame that the system was logged into).
    And therein lies part of the problem. If the request was “all accesses on this date”, or even “all accesses for this user” (or even “all accesses for this user on this date”) then you simply get the data you ask for. OTOH, when you are asked “We want to know what this person was doing on this day”, then you’re inadvertently asking for “expert speculation”.

    We end up with a similar problem if you deliberately don’t invite speculation and instead gather information from multiple sources (or from one source in multiple bits) and then try to reconstruct it.
    Consider the St Leonards bus ticket.
    First we ask the conductor what sort of ticket it is: “It’s a 7d ticket”
    The we ask about other ticket types: “Well, within Section 1 you pay 7d because you’re travelling the whole route, but once we’re out of Section 1 the remainder of the route is 6d”
    So now we know this ticket should have been purchased in Section 1, but what is Section 1? “Basically, that’s the city square mile. In buses headed up the Anzac Highway, that means the Section change is on West Tce, near the corner of South Tce”
    And is there any way we can tell which journey it was purchased on “Sure, when we reach the terminus, we have some layover time, and I record what sequence number each of the ticket books is up to”
    Can we have a look at the register? “Sure, here tis”.

    What if this register isn’t clear? What if they just have time and sequence number. Is that the time the journey commenced? Or finished? Or the time you happened to make the entry?
    The conductor likely knows, but now that the register is being analysed by someone else, the conclusions they make might not match the facts. Even if they understand what the log means, the risk of someone unfamiliar mis-interpreting the detail is more likely than the conductor.

    In fact, since we’re already so speculative, what if the tickets aren’t recorded at the terminus, but rather when you return to the city? This would be an hour or longer after the original journey commenced – and if we’re recording the entry time, this could throw someone off based on their assumptions about trip times and the like.
    Now the conductor is questioned again – but this time we have a hypothetical narrative that we’re asking them to confirm, rather than asking for the facts. Now you’re opening a plethora of reasons why detail might go askew:
    – blind trust that you’ve checked the data
    – path of least resistance is to agree
    – “facts” sufficiently match memory, won’t bother verifying
    – etc
    Devil’s Advocate: Wouldn’t it make more sense that the ticket was purchased on a Somerton bus? Might have to see if I can dig out my old BusAustralia account and pester them some about the operation of Public Transport in the 1940s.

    Even if the conductor does his own analysis, there’s a chance he misinterprets his own records or makes a mistake – and how many people at that point might realise and say “whoops, I got it wrong, let me check again”, or how many might realise and then double down on the narrative they have created refusing to admit they messed up?

    The most obvious example of assumption becoming the narrative is when people tell you SM got off at the corner of Adelphi St and Anzac Highway – as far as I can tell the only reason this stop has been selected is because it is the closest to Somerton – but there is literally no evidence whatsoever that IF he was on the bus, he alighted here.

    Totally off the beaten track I seem to recall a discussion some time ago around “torn vs trimmed” on the slip. At the time I speculated that perhaps SM was impersonating someone else and didn’t realise the importance of the paper exactly matching the hole in the book. I have a recollection that our Bus Conductor reported having found a Rubaiyat and placed it in Lost Property. makes you wonder a little…..

  1485. john sanders on December 7, 2021 at 10:31 pm said:

    Josef: OK. I’ve picked up your root clue and am now Czeching on corresponding text for the solution, thanks. While we’re rooting around, you might have some ideas concerning the fake root ball on facing page 1v that is an amateurish attempt at concealing the Tepenec signature seap through from 1r.

  1486. john sanders on December 7, 2021 at 11:04 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: If you’d be kind enough to share this tidbit with the boss. I’ve noted that your ships Pobeda and Derna both burnt and subsequently sunk on their respective home journey’s in 1948. I’m wondering if these events were merely coincidence or whether they were deliberately contrived to cover-up passenger substitution and/or murder most foul.

  1487. john sanders on December 8, 2021 at 11:23 am said:

    Josef Z. Prof: C,G, S, L = Crinum Grandis Stemen, Latifolim (Lilium or Lily) seems to be what we’re confronted with in VM 2r. It’s supposed to have a bulbus root system similar to that seen in 1v but it may well have been one artist Maggie Boole’s frequent mismatches.

  1488. John Jakub Tepenec? And his name on 1r. James could have the manuscript in his hands. He could have tried to decipher it. And so he signed into it. His key on the right is deleted. Voynich knew that Tepenec would be of no interest to America. And so he deleted it. He needed to stuff Bacon into it. Bacon means more money. Otherwise, Voynich had been deciphering for 12 years. And of course he also found out that it is written in the Czech language. As it is written in a letter that is at Yale in the Beinecke Library. There are also Polish words in the manuscript. Eliška was polka after her mother. It is also drawn on the last page. Why should Tepenec write about the Rosenberg family? That makes no sense at all. Although, of course, he knew them. Rosenberg was the most powerful and richest family. He was the first after the king. He had many castles and chateaux..

  1489. John Sanders…. Jakub Tepenec? And his name on 1r. James could have the manuscript in his hands. He could have tried to decipher it. And so he signed into it. His key on the right is deleted. Voynich knew that Tepenec would be of no interest to America. And so he deleted it. He needed to stuff Bacon into it. Bacon means more money. Otherwise, Voynich had been deciphering for 12 years. And of course he also found out that it is written in the Czech language. As it is written in a letter that is at Yale in the Beinecke Library. There are also Polish words in the manuscript. Eliška was polka after her mother. It is also drawn on the last page. Why should Tepenec write about the Rosenberg family? That makes no sense at all. Although, of course, he knew them. Rosenberg was the most powerful and richest family. He was the first after the king. He had many castles and chateaux..

  1490. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 8, 2021 at 3:14 pm said:

    John Sanders.John Sanders. :-)Yes. You think very well, colleague. We are confronted with a Jewish cipher. I’ll look at the first page and write to you.

  1491. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 8, 2021 at 3:45 pm said:

    John Sanders.Page 1v. It is very simple.
    It is written in the text. There are 14 green leaves. And the golden leaves are 6 and 6. That’s my date of birth. This means the year 1466. This is the date of birth of Eliška of Rožmberk. (Eliška does not write: there are 12 gold letters ….. but she writes 6 and 6. If she wrote 12, she would not be able to show the date 1466). Root = Claws – Fox …. Thorns = Rose. Skin.

  1492. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 8, 2021 at 3:53 pm said:

    John Sanders.Page 1v. It is very simple.
    It is written in the text. There are 14 green leaves. And the golden leaves are 6 and 6. That’s my date of birth. This means the year 1466. This is the date of birth of Eliška of Rožmberk. (Eliška does not write: there are 12 gold leaves ….. but she writes 6 and 6. If she wrote 12, she would not be able to show the date 1466). Root = Claws – Fox …. Thorns = Rose. Skin.

    Green leaves – characters = J and T. ( no Jacobo Tepenec :-))) …). J = 1…T = 4. Meaning 14. + golden 6 and 6 = 1466. E liška.

  1493. john sanders on December 9, 2021 at 4:25 am said:

    Anyone who really cares what happened to SM’s brown knitted pullover, go to Abbott’s facebook page and Gordon Cramer’s most recent link to Derrek’s own Len Brown Bio sheet. There’s a nice picture of Det. Brown at work with a hard copy of S.A. Crimes act on his desk for effect and phone in hand; impeccably besuited as required including a perfect pass for SM’s ‘V’ necked brown knitted pullover. Seems Gordon and his old buddy from Feltus’ forum days John Ruffles, are pushing their spy shit on Derrek’s unwary dupes. PS. Now only Tom Keane’s yellow handled electrician’s screwdriver remains unaccounted for.

  1494. john sanders on December 11, 2021 at 8:54 am said:

    Barf 747: think I may have located a suspect for the screwdriver theft in Lance Johns an electrical fitter from Hindmarsh post war, but his sibling Frank is still missing. Perhaps they were only half brothers, the latter having been welped when dad was a mounted cop in Darwin pre WW1. Athough a Frank Johns does show up on a 1933 arrival card from GB it offers no leads and most unlikely that SM is the son of the 1948 police commissioner W. F. Johns anyhow, just a wild fancy on my part.

  1495. john sanders on December 12, 2021 at 8:35 am said:

    Can you guess how the falacy apropos Prosper’s need for digitalis as treatment for a old wartime bronchial haemhorage came about. Yep you guessed it; had Dr. Bowes bothered to check, he would have found that digitalis is for most part taken to increase flow of blood to the heart, not stop it in asystol. The man was not known to have symtoms of a cardiac arrythmic disorder for which digitalis might be deemed a useful inclusion in Jo Thomson’s home medicine cabinet. Better cross it off the list Bozo, the other dated stuff is more than enough.

  1496. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 12, 2021 at 6:15 pm said:

    john sanders.
    Moi. You understood the difference between 6+ 6. And number 12. 🙂

  1497. john sanders on December 13, 2021 at 7:28 am said:

    Josef Prof. My guess would be that sest sest (6 + 6) in Czech VM glyph speak would look & sound more poetic than dvanact (12), something similar to four and twenty black birds, or four score and ten. Otherwise no difference to the green/gold leaf counts on f1v. Eliska’s birthday 14/2/1466 reminds me of a like date in Australia’s denominational history ie., £1 = $2 five hundred years or a half millenium on to ‘fourteenth of February nineteen sixty six’ for decimal currency intro. & jingle. All things being equal your contention of 1466 +12 =1480 = B 408 might require some advanced math in order to square with my position.

  1498. john sanders on December 13, 2021 at 8:14 am said:

    …of course it’s 1478 for ‘rose red’ Eliskas’s VM date. Make a mistake to see whose awake.

  1499. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 13, 2021 at 10:40 am said:

    John sanders :-)))))

  1500. john sanders on December 13, 2021 at 12:43 pm said:

    Josef Prof: OK your Czech chart has 16/2/66 as opposed to my 14/2/66 for Eliska which might be explained by a Julian/Gregorian calendar mistake. My search field also comes up with her son Julius bn. 1500, she being suspiciously ancient at 34 years old, but then there’s another lad Ulrich plus one more unamed child in no particular order and no details but, all fathered by Heinrich on his second time around. Are we talking about the same Sheila or has somone stuffed up.

  1501. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 13, 2021 at 9:26 pm said:

    john sanders. :Eliška’s children. 3 children. 2 births.
    1st childbirth. Ulrich Graaf van Hardeeg 1485 – 1535.
    Johan Graaf von Hardeeg 1485 – 1539.
    Second childbirth. birth Julius I. Graf van hardeeg 1500 – 1557.

  1502. john sanders on December 13, 2021 at 10:29 pm said:

    Josef Prof: Twin boys at 19, then a layoff for Eliska of 15 years before big julie came along. Must have been a shock for poor Henry Hardass learning he was gonna be a dad again after such a gap and all the kids survived which is great news moreover.

  1503. john sanders on December 14, 2021 at 9:03 am said:

    On a different note, in re George Boole’s widow Mary and her five smart kids, none of whom would be known to Ninjas bar Ethel, wife of Polish author Wilfrid Wojnicz a novelist in her own right. Margaret on the other hand is virtually unknown when compared with her well documented sibling sisters. Maggie was born in Cork Ireland like the rest and trained as an ontology nurse under the eminent physician Dr. Henry MacNaughton-Jones MD, M.ch, M.A.O. & F.R.C.S.I. This doctor had set up practise initially as an Eye Ear & Throat surgeon in the 1870’s, then took up obstetrics, his main area of specialty in later years when practising in Harley St. London. In 1879 Maggie Boole had won a major art prize, although she modestly gave ‘art student’ as her occupation on her return to London (with Dr. Mac.) in the early eighties. By that time she was in fact a very deft hand with pencil and brush, having done all the intricate artwork and colour plates for the good Dr’s numerous treatment textbooks althoug she was not named in the credits. Margaret’s husband Edward Taylor, artist in his own right and renowned for delicate botanical notebook sketches and landscapes can be researched for varification. Not only his works can be found on line, there are also a number of her highly detailed anatomical drawings of the inner ear with related colour tints of infection areas obtained from a book on ear disease also up…Won’t boor people to tears but, be reminded we aint finished with Margaret Taylor just yet, she being the primary candidate for artistic supervision of a so called ancient manuscript that has come to my attention of late.

  1504. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 14, 2021 at 9:33 pm said:

    john sanders.
    See page 70v. there is also clearly drawn. Big circle. So there are all the children. There are a total of 10. There is also Elička and 9 siblings. There are also twins drawn. The twins have the stars drawn together. These are the children of Anna Hlohovská and Jan II. from Rožmberk. Then a small circle is drawn there. It is drawn in it. Two women (same). This is Eliška. Two women have 2 births. Then 3 men are drawn there. Children. The two have cartoon stars together. These are twin children. If you will be able to read the text, it is also written there.

    And why are you confusing Voynich’s wife here too ??? The one that has nothing to do with the manuscript. You’re already driving like Santa Richard. The only one in America who understood the manuscript was Voynich. He found out that the manuscript was written in the Czech language. Boule ne. she didn’t know it.

  1505. john sanders on December 14, 2021 at 11:46 pm said:

    Josef Z. Prof. : I found another stylised flying circle etched by aTaylor circa 1890s with 10 nymphs on the rim plus two in the middle on an open sleigh being drawn through the heavens by a crown plumed bird. Also there’s an undated ornate mono chrome siluette of a tree with spreading branches and fancy shaped roots, by Margery Taylor. I’m assuming both might be attributed to the Taylor/Boole clan though such assumations are made reservedly…. As for your assessment of Voynich being the only one in America &c….I have no argument with Czech language perse plus you should be aware that Santa Richard and I have differing views as to authorship of VM. You were possibly also unaware that, at the time of VM’s first documented appearance in 1915, Friddy’s inlaws from London, Ted & Maggie Taylor just happened to be in New York too. Makes one wonder what the pair might be doing in Manhatten far from home, with the war and all.

  1506. john sanders on December 15, 2021 at 8:24 am said:

    In re Tbt’s latest beat up “Who was the ‘real’ Jessica Harkness” our master of verbal creativity makes the point that “she lied to his (GF’s) face”, yet in a link to his claimed interviews with Jessica, Gerry merely states that she ‘diverted the topic’, was ‘evasive’ and ‘did not wish to to talk about it’ (iho). Lieing to his face? maybe to one so accused, like the fibber who’d have us believe Somerton Man was a nazi V2 rocket engineer who got nobbled with Prosper’s haemhorage tonic, carried four hundred yards along the beach to a (recently vacated) spot marked X and left to the effects of time and tide.

  1507. john sanders on December 15, 2021 at 10:54 am said:

    …and there’s a nice shot of Gerry leaving Yatala after a visit with Gerry Preston, from a piece in the Herald Sun datelined 7/12/14 re the earlier execution of his wife. Would have been a nice intro for a Feltus yarn.

  1508. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on December 15, 2021 at 11:26 am said:

    john sanders.
    Many scientists are trying to figure out what the stars, handwritten, mean. Maybe the scientist already understood. After all I wrote about childbirth. Even today, it is said that when someone is born, a star shines in the sky. So everyone who is born has their own star. And why do you call a nymph? When someone is born, they are without clothes. He’s naked. So it must be taken by anyone who can reasonably understand. Naked or naked means = born. It’s very simple. Or not ? The manuscript is not as complicated as it is generally written about. He just wants to think normally.

  1509. milongal on December 15, 2021 at 7:38 pm said:

    FWIW I think there’s a lot about Harkness that is at least curious, and probably deeply mysterious. There’s part of me that even wonders whether SM himself was quite mundane, and a lot of the weirdness around the whole thing is Thomson/Harkness weirdness rather than dead body on the beach weirdness.

    The strangest thing about SM really is the TS slip…..and perhaps ironically that’s what brings Harkness into the frame (despite my earlier insistences that the link from the TS to the Rubaiyat with the “code” isn’t as clear cut as some would have you believe).

    That said, I have to say, although I don’t often agree with PB’s conclusions, I often (or at least sometimes++) think he’s looking in interesting directions – even if only to categorically dismiss an idea.

    In terms of (easily) lying to a (veteran) copper I’ll make a couple of observations:
    – 60 years after the fact it’s probably easier than a week after the fact
    – I suspect as we get older we lose some of our “care factor” – same reason why some older people lose their filter and are prepared to say the most inappropriate things
    – When your whole life is a lie you’re used to it so it’s effortless (perhaps this was Pete’s point)
    – What if there’s a totally unrelated background lie? You’d imagine it’s easier to be evasive about something else (that you might not have been involved in – or at least not from the angle you’re being questioned).

    To return to my earlier point, what if there was some deep dark secret about Harkness (or Thomson) and they were barely involved with SM, but the secrecy/evasion comes from trying to protect a bigger secret from escaping. So people correctly recognise there’s “something going on”, but make the wrong assumption that it DIRECTLY relates to SM. In fact, PB sort of alludes to this when he talks about the policeman in the mirror. You’re pulled over for failing to indicate, but you need to hide the fact that you’re a drug courier – the cops might twig that you’re being evasive, and in that context it flags that there’s something more to it – but what if you’re being questioned about a murder and you’re trying to hide the fact you’re a drug courier? Perhaps then your evasiveness appears to be because you’re involved with the murder….
    (Not suggesting drug couriers in terms of SM – that was a random crime I came up with for the “cop in the mirror” bit)

  1510. milongal on December 15, 2021 at 7:43 pm said:

    @NP – I don’t know how or why, auto-fill (or equivalent) but GC’s website in the Website field on my last post…..I noticed right after I clicked “Post”. Not sure if that can be manually fixed up…..
    It looks like when I click that field it occurs several times in auto-complete (curiously alongside 2 long-defunct sites – so no idea where or when it’s cached that stuff from)

  1511. john sanders on December 15, 2021 at 11:45 pm said:

    First reliable record for Wilfrid Voynich’s arrival in New York is 27/11/14 by sea from Liverpool. It seems reasonable to surmise that he was accompanied by sister-in-law Margaret Taylor and artist husband Edward, both in their tail end fifties. Someone with the dope on travel records from GB to USA might like to check my intuitive skills on this for it may become important later. Germany, on 4/2/1915 declared open season on British ‘commercial’ shipping on the US/UK Atlantic run, a threat put into immediate effect and followed up with sinking of of SS Lutsitania in May of that year; So it’s unlikely that Wilfred or his visitors dared making the return voyage until later 1915 or even early 1916 (see travel chart for Wilfrid), by which time the threat of them being indiscriminately torpedoed had eased. We might assume that the trio set up quarters in DT Manhatten and there is definate evidence of Ted having painted in NJ during his forced stay. He probably also accompanied Wilfred on his ventures to Buffalo, Cleveland, Philadelphia then westward via Chicago to San Francisco for book shows and no doubt looking for show of interest in his recently acquired 13th century ‘Bacon’. It might be mentioned that Lily Boole’s sister Mary Hinton, the math guru with husband Charles, lecturer/inventorauthor/Polygamist had settled in the US with sons George & Sebastian by the 1890s. Their gifted boys (botany/engineering) known to be in continual close contact with their kin from The Dart after loss of dad & mum in 1907/8..

  1512. john sanders on December 16, 2021 at 4:51 am said:

    I’m somewhat in sync with the general suggestion that there be things about Jessica that are curious and shrouded in mystery; if even to the exclusion of involvement with SM, which I’ll hold firm on. I’m not going to be sucked into a web of deceit where burdens of proof don’t mean nuthing and facts be cast aside in favour of idle hearsay and/or inuendo. Such might be fine for those accepting that the TS slip, inexplicably missed by an experienced scenes of crime team in Dets. Strangway/Sutherland/Durham could be recovered purely by chance when an ancient professor was trying on the dead man’s duds months after the fact. Well go for it then if that be seen as an easier pathway to yon Holy SM Grail and best of British…!

  1513. john sanders on December 16, 2021 at 7:01 am said:

    …a couple or seven names from Wilfrid’s heady days of WW1 in ‘The Apple’ spying for the team at Whitehall through his most reliable cable connection to Blinker Hall of Rm. 40 at the Admiralty. By my own reckoning experienced agents like Voynich & Sid Reilly were recruited and sent off to the Americas to watch over the cousins, gain their confidence in order to report similar German initiatives. In the case of Wilfred, he also had a good intro to the US intelligence document office in NY run by a chemist friend, not forgetting his pre war pals from Chicago, John Manly and Edith Rickert, both seconded MI 8 Intel. section field agents. It was Manly and Rickert who along with Wilfred’s language skills translated the infamous Lothar Witzke double tranposition pin code letter to the boss, it having been found secreted on the spy who was attempting to enter the states at the Mexican border. During his extended stay in New York Wilfred was known to frequent habits of top enemy spies likes of Ritalen, Papen and Boy-Ed, as did his mate and Lil’s, Sid Reilly AOS when in town from Brazil. Another convenient bipass for communications back to London from south of the border was Mr. ‘H’ of Zimmerman Telegram fame who was never formally identified, thoughTiltman likely knew but kept it from Bill Freidman. It’s highly probable that he was none other than Wilfrid’s nephew George Boole Hinton, Mexican/British dual citizen of Mexico City who collected, catalogued & shipped unique MessoAmerican plant specimens to custoners world wide including Aunt Lily Voynich and nephew Sir Geoffrey Taylor DSO. Seems that Wilfrid Voynich, noted bibliophile, chemist, author, translator and smooth operator, had other talents far and away more exiting than his trying to fool folks with a poorly doctored Roger Bacon manuscript. PS another amigo of Wilfrid was General Manuel Mondragon, arms inventor, minister for navy, bibliophile and father of Nahui Olin (pin up girl). They likely hooked up during the latter’s stay over at the Manhatten Hotel on his way into exile in Spain mid 1915 from memory.

  1514. john sanders on December 16, 2021 at 7:51 am said:

    Could be wrong but this time around Peteb’s so called interesting directions, suggest that in 1948 hoards of soviet trained paediphilic spies were hanging about Alvington Crippled Childrens home at Somerton. Gazing through loupes with leary fantasy filled eyes hoping to catch a glimpse of kiddies with crutches, moving about in wheelchairs, sporting metal leg splints or perhaps enclosed in an iron lung. Well I guess he should know better than most having written on the subject at some length but, for the life of Pye what connection does he see with orphanages and errant boys homes, subject to a recent state run inquiry.

  1515. john sanders on December 16, 2021 at 9:59 am said:

    Before we leave the Boole/Taylor/ Hinton/Stott clan, for people who might not be up to date: Sebastian Hinton, prior to his untimely escape from the cruel world by his own hand in 1922 , left soon to be famous in her own right Carmelita & kids destitute. He had been a Chicago patent lawyer then during WW1 he was in intelligence, in his sparetime he improved his dad’s jungle gym appartus and other outdoor leisure equipment (can’t find his name on any above ground pools to date). Cousin Geoffrey Taylor was just your everyday wave theory physicist, meteorologist, botanist and ocean chartist who was one of ten selected to watch the first atomic bomb test in July ’45, he also mapped the arctic coast in a sail boat but never made it to Vinland. His young brother Julian was a WW1 surgeon who whilst a POW in WW2 performed revolutionary brain surgery using make do primitive tools and undertook developement of unique knee & ankle joints for artificial limbs. He spent his later years in sub Saharan Africa tending the needy and died amongst them from memory. There were a host of others, all tops in their field including a world renowned entomologist and a female Manhatten atomic scientist who converted to communism and died in China and doctor Leonard Stott that made Xrays into laser guns or something clever. So last but not least is youngster Geoffrey Everest Hinton the neural scientist from Canada who won the 2018 Turing prize for his work in artificial Intelligence so you can bet he knows a thing or to about his great uncle’s ugly duckling.

  1516. milongal on December 16, 2021 at 9:31 pm said:

    There’s a pretty big leap in his logic on this one….
    The report was brought in 2005 – there’s no mention WHEN all of those institutions had instances of abuse, and no suggestion that it was sustained perpetually throughout history.

    So “Going by the list of homes and the number of people responsible….” would seem to assume that all of these places had active abusers in 1948 (unless the actual report states it). IMO it would make more sense that the abuse in the report would refer to is later – not because I don’t think abuse happened earlier, but because this sort of inquiry would need witnesses (except if someone kept a record of it – but that doesn’t seem likely). So the further into hitory you go, the harder it is to establish an accusation, let alone try to verify its veracity. So while it’s perfectly plausible that a 2005 report includes evidence of abuse 57 years earlier (after all, the victims would only be inn their 60s), I think the bulk of the evidence likely refers to more recent abuse.Mansfield House
    It’s also perhaps worth mentioning that Alvington/Crippled Children’s Home is NOT in the list (many other long-defunct institutions are).

    Lastly, I went through each one to see when they were open :
    – Convent of the Good Shepherd “The Pines” (1942-1974) – Plympton (a couple suburbs from Glenelg)
    – Kumanka Boys Hostel (1946-1980) North Adelaide
    – Mansfield House (curiously is known to have existed, but nobody knows where or when – There is a suburb Mansfield Park North of Woodville (however not sure it predates 1950)
    – Oodnadatta Children’s Home (1924-1974) (this is halfway to Alice Springs….)
    – Sacred Heart Orphanage (1940-1979) Crystal Brook (Halfway to Oodnadatta…..not quite – but out near Port Pirie)
    – St Joseph’s Orphanage (1907-1960) Largs Bay (we all know where that is)
    – Seaforth Children Home (1946-1975 – Somerton Park) – Not certain on this one. There was an inistituion in Somerton Park called various things including “Seaforth Home”, but couldn’t find exact name)
    – St John’s Boys Town (1941-1954) Brooklyn Park (near Adelaide Airport)
    – Struan Farm School (1947-1969) Naracoorte (St Mary MacKillop country – 3.5 hours from Adelaide)
    – St Vincent De Paul Orphanage (1866-1975) – Various locations, from 1888 Millswood (couple of suburbs South of Adelaide)
    – United Aborigines Mission (1895-2019, Sa locations Oodnadatta from 1924, Quorn (out near Port Augusta) from 1927
    Vaughan House (1947-1979) Enfield (Inner North East suburbs)

    So while that big long list of places of abuse is obviously concerning, it doesn’t really suggest that in 1948 there were more paedophiles than spies in Adelaide (depending on how many spies you think there were, I suppose).

  1517. milongal on December 16, 2021 at 9:32 pm said:

    Addendum
    ** those not included in the list above did not open until after 1948.

  1518. milongal on December 16, 2021 at 9:35 pm said:

    Addednum 2…. I missed one or 2
    (not sure if I had Colebrook Home (1927-1981) Blackwood (Southern foothills))
    Morialta Proteston Children’t Home (1924-1972) Norton Summit (foothills)

  1519. milongal on December 16, 2021 at 9:44 pm said:

    I’ll stand ever-so-slightly corrected. The report does talk about abuse _from the 1940s_

    But I’ll maintain that still isn’t evidence of more paedo than spies

  1520. john sanders on December 17, 2021 at 4:07 am said:

    Xlamb: struggling a bit with your off beat yarn about Allan L. Carver. If his birth year of 1914 be correct, doesn’t fit that he’s in reform school in 1932 aged 18. What’s his gig anyhow, you saying he and Doc Carver were complicit in some child exploitation raccket or some such or are you simply laying out a new more intriguing angle on daddy dear? I have it from nonreliable sources that young Carver died at Glenside asylum in 1946 and that he had no felony convictions to his name. If you’ve got any dirt on him hooking up with the Yank doctor apropos messing with kiddies undergoing polio or cerebral palsy rehab at the Alvington HCC then that would surely support Peteb’s insinuations of an international paedophile collective on the loose in 1948. Brings to mind the Nunns next door who were US trained osteopaths, particularly Ella who according to our ever reliable informants Deveson and Cramer? was suspected of being a nazi. Could be groundbreaking Ruth and if you can get your Tbt crew to dig a little deeper down Allan’s old place, there’s sure to be a spiderman suit plus remains of six Wenzels pasties and a pie with sauce at X marks the spot.

  1521. john sanders on December 17, 2021 at 11:05 pm said:

    Byron Deveson: re your John Moir Harkness, of Proserpine Queensland, the Pharmacologist, erronously referred to as Jessica’s father back in 2013 (H. C. Reynolds) from memory. It gives a good account of his credentials as an expert witness in one particilar unauthorised poison distribution case before the courts. It’s relevence to Jessica and her possible knowledge of the subject be spurious however and I think you may find that most deliberate poisonings are not, as you suggest, undertaken by family members but, by persons intent on self destruction the likes of GC’s Tibor Kuldor, a particularly fine example.

  1522. john sanders on December 18, 2021 at 4:51 am said:

    Xlamb: couragious of you to admit your silly blunder re Allan Carver’s release from juvenile detention in 1932. Regarding father Henry’s outrage against he and his mum in September 46, sort of weird that they are recorded together in loving terms on the same brown granite tombstone at West Terrace cemetery. Also strange is that Allan as Allen includes Pvt. (Private) suggesting a ‘Returned Man’ truth being known Al spent just two weeks at an induction centre in 1941. Incidently brother Norman served in the same S.A. Field Ambulance unit during WW2 with Dr. R. N. Bickford, first duly appointed medical director and chief administrator of Alvington House crippled kiddies home. A bright fellow who would have been onto Peteb’s Dr. Carver, the suspected paedo in a heartbeat had the allegations been ligit…You’ll recall from days of yore that Bozo tends to get excited when topics akin to child molestation, grooming, stalking and such are broached, don’t mean nought, not unless I’m mistaken for which I’ll stand corrected..

  1523. john sanders on December 19, 2021 at 2:09 pm said:

    Xlamb: Would you be kind enough to inform your forgetful friend and colleague that the photo he’s so desperatly seeking can be found on his websight and that the thread is entitled ‘Jestyn’s school days’. The pic is one obviously from the sixties and not thirties as Clive and Derek insisted, the highlighted Jessica being another student from a different era. A cool looking teenager looking for all the world like Robin Thomson stands out in his flash Mordialloc College togs at which institution Jean Harkness also attended and excelled at sport (see trove bag racing champ 1935?).

  1524. milongal on December 19, 2021 at 7:46 pm said:

    @JS: Hasn’t Moir/Muir come up before (or is that the same one)

  1525. john sanders on December 19, 2021 at 10:31 pm said:

    milongal: both have come up many times, the names being derived from a Scottish clan, possibly Mcfarlane which was Jessie Muir Thomson’s maiden monicker. There was also Jean Moyr or Moir Carr as above plus of course uncle John and his father from memory.

  1526. john sanders on December 20, 2021 at 6:00 am said:

    Xlamb: yes I see your point, twasn’t you but misca that backed me on the school photo faux pas that Peter Bowes and Clive Turner promoted as being one of a teenaged Jestyn and classmates in the early thirties. ‘Twas I who identified Mordialloc College in a trice and who twigged to the scene as being of a more modern era for starters. So from initial post status of game changer according to the ‘master of disaster’ to a cringing shut down true to form, took no time at all.

  1527. john sanders on December 22, 2021 at 12:16 pm said:

    Xlamb: 2013 you say, since your last comment here. I guess you’ll stand be prepared to stand corrected if I remind you of a cherrished compliment you made to me, namely concerning a post that I made in late 2016 or 2017. It was in reference to a particular unamed words thief who was in the habit (and still is) of brazenly filching copy from this site and transfering same to his own dull, uninformative blog. Do you recall? perhaps not, though I remember. Unlike your newfound Tbt Bowes site that prefers to delete all of it’s embarrasing history, Ciphermysteriies on the other hand is complete going back to 2009 and I’m sure with a little digging I can put up the beautiful comment you made. And a merry merry Xmas to you too Ruth.

  1528. john sanders on December 23, 2021 at 6:23 am said:

    Dem bones, done numbered 21 (of 200) according to Xlamb/Ruth’s latest which offers usual complimentries to Ciphermisteries. Back to the bones of her post, temporarily up on Tomsbytwo, where/whence did the 21 count derive? We know from the dig team top cop that they considered the remains to be in fine fettle well preserved and intact. This being seemingly at odds with Ruth’s low number of testable specimens. Perhaps the good lady would be kind enough to further enlighten us on her information source, to resolve this bone of contention.

  1529. Sanders … you oaf, Happy Christmas.

  1530. john sanders on December 24, 2021 at 12:56 pm said:

    Peteb: foa you to, Don’t eat the Viet prawns, they’ve been dosed, cheers.

  1531. john sanders on December 27, 2021 at 11:03 am said:

    Dunno about the six year old Bozo but, I always prefered Robert Zimmerman’s ‘Don’t critisize what you can’t understand’ version to Einstein’s in which his ‘condemnation’ part is too harsh, even for a contemptable smiling charlatan. Irony is that both Bob & Albert, although born of the faith and men of peace ended up confirmed non believers as adults.

  1532. milongal on January 16, 2022 at 8:49 pm said:

    There’s something I sort of like about PB’s latest.

    But first let’s go off topic.

    When I was in year 10, I was still considered reasonably good at Maths. After finishing in the top 20 in the IBM Maths competition, I applied to attend “MathSearch” – a “camp” at Seymour College (Glen Osmond) where we did exciiting things like learning about fractals and cryptography (not all at the same time). Perhaps it shaped my interest in programming (although that might also have come from my best friend in primary school being the class’ Commodore64 expert).
    In any case, somewhere around this time, my Math teacher “proved” that 1 = 0 (or more accurately x = x -1)** and challenged me to explain the flaw in his logic.
    it’s not important (and I won’t talk about) how long it took me (and leave it to you to decide whether it’s because it took me longer than I’m comfortable admitting, or whether it’s because I don’t want to seem like I’m bragging), but the point is the approach.
    I started by evaluating each line on its own, and once I found the line was wrong, I knew there was something wrong with the step that got us there. And I sort of think this is where PB is going (perhaps not on purpose, not sure) with his latest….Instead of trying to fit a whole bunch of stuff into a narrative, why don’t we approach it the opposite way and look for the bit that spoils the story – If we can decide which part (or parts) makes the whole story break down, then we can think about WHY those bits are the way they are…..or something.
    The obvious elephant in the room (or perhaps cat in the box) is deciding which things we actually categorically know to begin with (so perhaps we’re still where we started)…..

    **
    let x = 1
    then
    x^2 = x
    => x^2 – 1 = x – 1 (minus 1 both sides)
    => (x-1)(x+1) = x – 1 (simplify)
    => (x-1)(x+1)/(x-1) = (x-1)/(x-1) (divide by (x-1))
    => x+1 = 1
    => x = 0 (minus 1 both sides)
    BUT we defined x = 1

  1533. john sanders on January 17, 2022 at 4:46 am said:

    E = mc^2 as being somehow connected to Peteb’s second crack at stepping on a scalded black cat in as many months is a most implauable. The equasion which of itself centres precisely on speed of light and expended energy has no bearing whatsoever on poor Robin Thomson’s relativety or nay to African American loving president Thos. Jefferson in my calculations.

  1534. milongal on January 19, 2022 at 8:08 pm said:

    BSTS (or TSBS) claims biggest finds of last year were:
    Tidal stuff that we have long argued here some obscure PIF itinerary that ignores his stints in the UK and Libya (and subsequent appearance at IAEA conferences which are clearly still figments of our imagination).

    I feel like the word ‘conclusively’ is thrown around without understanding the meaning (much like a lot of people use ‘literally’).

  1535. milongal on January 19, 2022 at 8:12 pm said:

    NB: previous post was missing words or punctuation (the tide and PIF were meant to be separated by at least a comma or an ‘and’….not sure if I inadvertently deleted a thought in between)
    NB2: There’s a reference to the tidal stuff in the thread above (by JS ~Aug 2020 – and if memory serves me correctly, I think that wasn’t the first time the king tide was mentioned), I can find a reference (by Yours Truly) dating back to 2017….and I suspect we were talking about it even longer ago (I know JS has maintained ‘body was damp’ for a LOOOOONG time).

  1536. john sanders on January 19, 2022 at 10:59 pm said:

    I can well recall, in answer to initial duscussions here back at least five years ago about how a nine foot King tide could well have been significant apropos the seawall and inundation of the body. Gordon responded directly that such an occurrnce be normal and thereby not a factor worth contemplation in any way re saturation. Guess he changed his mind after consultation with his alleged tidal expert, then chose to claim it as a coupe for the leading dedicated SM blog which is ot unexpected..

  1537. john sanders on January 20, 2022 at 1:57 am said:

    …..Deverson 20/11/13, Sanders & milongal 4/01/17 @ last twenty four hours re effects of 9ft tide at dawn on 1/12/48…good on you Gordon, who’s a horses ass?

  1538. john sanders on January 20, 2022 at 10:55 pm said:

    Could be a breakthrough from our Lameland bros. with confirmation that the Barbour thread(s), part of SM’s alleged belongings came on a spool and not the carded substitute, as depicted on A/Det. Sgt. Leane’s first suitcase contents press reclease. But that’s not the end of Sapol’s deception; those of us with long held beliefs that only the suitcase woven khaki? tie displayed the iconic inked T. keane monicker might note brother Mal’s assertion that a singlet and washing bag were affixed with that same unabreviated T. Keane markings also. Seems there is now reliable evidence that the names Keane and or Kean (Mal’s second take) can be met with amongst natives of Tennessee, an eastern US state which is significant for Robin Thomson’s DNA. match as we’re all well familiar by now.

  1539. john sanders on January 21, 2022 at 10:52 am said:

    …..could be mistaken boys but isn’t that a bloody big needle sticking out of yon Barbour card in your accompanying thread head post pic. If not don’t fret for a spare is listed amongst ‘possessions’ in Gordon’s long unattended ‘anemptyglass’ blog….Guess the man from Tennessee didn’t pass the Tbt conformity test eh?

  1540. john sanders on January 22, 2022 at 8:00 am said:

    Cripes, hope our subtle trollery had naught to do with Davy Crocket’s summary dismissal but, he knew the rules and anyhow three’s a crowd on that sort of well rehearsed Abbott and Costello format. We recall when the lads first paired up on Mike Dash’s in depth Smithsonian SM review, the show came to life only when they performed signature comic capers. Now it’s game on again for 2022 and we’re in for a treat with the very same zany Q & A agenda in play at Tbt., the corriographed dumb Leylandish questions from Clive and dumber quips from our host, promises a virtual repeat of Smithsonian review all those weary years ago. Upanatem!

  1541. john sanders on January 23, 2022 at 5:20 am said:

    Byron: Sorry but, your suggestions re post production signature on Tbt’s Barbour ‘spool’ are undoubtedly of factory origin, possibly ‘Bill Barbour Ltd’. As for my own suggestion of a needle protrusion therefrom, this has now been invalidated by an inspired part deletion & blow-up of the original thread header picture, a standard Bowes/Cramer ploy plus ammendments to the script, the trade and calling of all smooth operators…Anyone desiring a more detailed look into Barbour’s Thread Co. Ltd. and it’s nominal links to Australian Intelligence (ASIO), it was well covered right here not so long ago. (wait out).

  1542. Clive J. Turner on January 23, 2022 at 6:39 am said:

    “Who’s on First?” certainly not you, JS

  1543. milongal on January 26, 2022 at 7:08 pm said:

    Apparently I have mental health issues – says the kettle** who can’t rationalise that the “same name being commonly used for spies” is not really evidenced when ALL the references we can find to Pav (whether pre 1948 or post) would consistently line up with being a single entity. Oh, and all of them have the same wife.
    My question remains, if Fedosimov was an identity that was so oft reused, how come we can only trace it through one generation – almost like it’s just one person?

    **I’ll take the point that he accused me of being a troll, and I’m not sure that someone casting aspersions from a blog is the same thing as a troll. But I meant more on the mental health front. When I see some of the leaps to conclusions from a claimed ex-defective I worry about the state of the world’s investigative services – and how many people might be sitting in the clink because similar plods preferred their gut-feel over actual evidence.

  1544. milongal on January 26, 2022 at 7:20 pm said:

    NB: At the risk of exposing mental health issues (which for what it’s worth are no laughing matter) and appearing a touch OCD, I’ll point out that while I’ve rarely agreed with GC, I’m somewhat amused that his latest “concerns” for our health are based not on the fact that we disagree, but because we agreed with his tidal speculation long before he came up with it (I vaguely remember pointing out that if you check out google street view you can actually see the tide that high in that location).

    But I do find the negging (or perhaps unsults) quite amusing (insert some witticism about insults coming from salty people or something).
    *If* he genuinely believes that some of us have mental issues, then his comments are simply public microaggressions which speak volumes of his character.

  1545. john sanders on January 27, 2022 at 4:01 am said:

    milongal: for a want of a better alternative, I guess it wouldn’t hurt to put our faith in the old kettle kicker’s past experience with mental health issues of his own to deal with, hence his all knowingly well considered advice thereupon. For example, a while back one of our erstwhile colleagues accepted similar advice on a rather petty breach of trust disputation. It concerned our first aforesaid ‘KK’ accusing his once devotee of mental incompetence after being found stalking aimlessly about in t’others sacred hen house. The ensuing melee included use of inflamed words of profanity like charlatan, surfer, con man, stompy wompy, flim flammer, all of which we all gleefully witnessed on our Samsung note pads. The shameless antics only subsided after mutual threats of impending legal recourse being bantered by the agrieved parties, each having nominating three partner city law firms known for their expert handling of numerous successful bitterly contested past litigations.
    Well take a look at our lads now will you, bossom buddies yet again with recent exchanges being sensually seminal in terms of their flow and intercourse. So shall we bite the bullet and see ourselves a good shrink on the best advice of course?

  1546. john sanders on January 27, 2022 at 11:06 am said:

    Far as our friends the Hebe’s are concerned and that includes Kate Thomson and kids, the only relevant ‘Higher Authority’ that her mum could have been referring to was Gehwah, God of Moses, Abraham and all devout Jews. Most punters would agree with that profound analogy, so we can bypass MI5, CIA, KGB, Ampol and the rest, even Jimmy Durante as likely contenders. So up your up date mate, it don’t pass the Kosher test for mine.

  1547. john sanders on January 28, 2022 at 10:34 pm said:

    milongal: looks like you’ve given Pavel a new lease of life over yonder and his bum buddy @ Schnoz, has joined the fray. No longer taunting with his Fedosimov ‘old saddle nose’ jibes, bloody turncoat…ps message for you from CGC, GET HELP!!

  1548. john sanders on January 29, 2022 at 6:37 am said:

    Right you are Dome, no point in lifting fingerprints unless in connection with a crime, reported, detected or ongoing, in order for said suspect or victim to be identified by such means. In the case of SM he may have satisfied both critetia according to first officers on the scene who reported this tentatively to Adelaide CIB for consideration. Accidental death or suicide was deemed most probable to the absence of any contrary evidence up until the inconclusive June inquest and beyond. So nothing to gain by rummaging through a chap’s suitcase looking for clues or dusting/fuming for unnecessary confirmation of ownership. Anyway by that stage the unsuspicious contents had been handled by both cops seeking spoils of war plus well qualified scientific experts ie., Cleland & Co. checking items of clothing for fit and the chance of secreted Sir john Hamilton five pound notes. Not forgetting as some have, that the beach body was printed soon after discovery without there being a match reported, thus negating any need to sully personal belongings to achieve that same end. So as we say in paraphrased venacular, no sense digging up turned earth for the carrot that ain’t there no more; that’s for clowns like CG & Peteb his Bowsie Wowsie lapdog; more praise be to the top cop R.L. Leane and his dedicated Safcol forty niner invincibles.

    PS: It was Tbt’s eagle eyed Byron Deveson what reported to Peteb on a dubious Wm. Barbour&Sons Ltd signature hidden beneath the Barbour threads card; Now archived (forever) as being of no relevance at all. It could it have hidden clues of unimaginable plotting & brewings, alas that line has been permanently shelved the culmination of ineptness along with immense loss of face..Seems the goodfellas win & the bad uns go down the sewer drain yet again & again..refrain.

  1549. john sanders on January 29, 2022 at 1:00 pm said:

    If understanding the basic principals of criminal investigation, apropos police fingerprinting concepts doesn’t work for our erstwhile fiend, perhaps he might consider changing hands occasionally and putting a little more milk in his porridge. I’ve been reliably informed by a retarded former AfIO operative that it worked wonders for him.

  1550. john sanders on January 30, 2022 at 4:03 am said:

    Seems our shrinking violet has been lured from his? ordered fairies lair intending to wrest Queen of trolls title off the billy goat gruff’s bridge guardian beast. A warm reception now awaits our mighty wee mouse that finally decided to roar, a most welcome change indeed to a career of no aspirations prissy opinions and self demeaning questions based on the pathetically predictable ‘follow my leader’ or else formula. Go right ahead little big man, make my day !!!

  1551. john sanders on January 30, 2022 at 1:01 pm said:

    The worldly wise and cagey old street Troll came upon a two pub town out in the parched corner country after camping dry for a week under a bridge waiting with patience for the off chance of nabbing a stray billy goat gruff for to fill his empty tucker bags which sadly did not come his way. Before figuring his next onward move, he rode into the little two pub town and sought out the commercial hotel intending to slake his wicked thirst and the possibilty of some decent company. At one end of the bar sat a pleasant looking chap possibly English with an agreeable countenance knocking back a pint of Coopers pale and seemingly bored shitless. At the other end was a dead set imposter, this one much older with an unruly shock of grey locks a liars smile, sucking up something from a straw and peering furtively about for a potential victim. Lounging slovenly all over the centre counter, all of five foot six, badly in need of a bath and a trim, stood a weathered ancient looking piece of nothingness staring glumly at an empty half flask of rotgut rum while picking his nose like mad…Just as the wicked Troll seemed about to select which of the three undesireables he might consider giving the pleasure of his refined upbringing to, a plaintive cry from somewhere in back was heard to address the amigos ..”Nuver pinta black for you Clive me dear; Get you a fizzgig for the road Mr. Cramer Sir; You’ve had ya fill Bonzo, better sit before ya drop ya creep and give ya snoz a rest will ya, we got us a classy troll to entatain”..Tarrying not a moment for any response from the bar flies, the by now allerted Troll made a quick exit with a new resolve. He crossed to the shearers Arms opposite more confident of finding a class of drinking companion more in keeping with his dignified trollish ways..”hey there Gerry old man, got a few of your fans over the way if you’re into spinning SM furphies”.

  1552. john sanders on January 30, 2022 at 2:14 pm said:

    Tbt’s new tactic of selectively posting the musings of a more fertile mind can be of some benefit in the long term, especially to targets of their twice posted implied shorcomings. These dupes might as a consequence now be encouraged to garner a newfound sense of self worth and with it a desire to become their own keeper. Why stick around as mere whipping boys for grandstanders like Cramer and his fawning disciple Bozo, to be at beck and call and to be desposed of at whim.

  1553. milongal on January 30, 2022 at 9:12 pm said:

    *shrugs shoulders*
    “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

  1554. milongal on January 30, 2022 at 9:24 pm said:

    I like your point a few comments back (and I suspect we’ve often said the same thing in different words). The initial investigation assumed something mundane.

    At what point did the plods decide this was more serious? It would seem about the time Leane came onboard (from memory about Jan 7 – but happy to be corrected).

    I half agree the lack of fingerprinting seems a bit odd, but a flustered, disorganised investigation (which by all accounts seems to be Leane’s style) could easily forget – or even delibertely (but not maliciously) dismiss – fingerprints.
    In terms of the book, they think they have a connection already.
    In terms of the suitcase, perhaps someone suggested that it was a medium that wouldn’t easily show fingerprints (microcode, on the other hand….).
    etc…..

    Repeat the oft cited Hanlon’s Razor – don’t attribute to malice that which might be explained by incompetence (or similar).

    Totally off topic….
    Regarding that other place that claims expertise in everything including mental health, I would have thought obsessive behaviour is an indicator of underlying issues. Of course some would point the same finger in my direction, however I like to think when I’m throwing grenades it’s at specific ideas raised yonder or in response to other people’s comments about it here – I don’t recall poking the beehive for the hell of it (but as ever stand to be corrected)**. When he directly addresses comments at me I would say that suggests some sort of obsession….

    ** The closest may have been that I did once challenge his qualification/background (although presumably that’s not what’s got his goat, because I don’t recall noticing any response to that).

  1555. john sanders on January 31, 2022 at 3:57 am said:

    Gerry the old school suit and the intruding troll were now locked in an eyeball to wary eyeball in a ‘who blinks first pays’ gaze for a minute neither prepared to give way to their innermost feelings. Then an all knowing crooked grin formed on the parched dial of the wicked troll and he was heard to mutter “you spotted em first right?”. At this honest injun Gerry stared ahead dead pan, blinked with his dexter eyelid shut and dryly corrected with “Smelled the wannabe mongrels first..what’s your poison anyhow, mines Glycoside with a dash if that’s OK”. “I’m game, stuff is said to go well with a pint and something solid to keep it down” reasoned t’other now all matey for a chaange. “Hey Jessie coupla lion tamers, pair a Resches with ears and a bag a potata chips fer me fusdy mate if you aren’t to busy me lovely” …and thats how a chance meeting in a bush pub twixt an ancient detective and a missunderstood vigilante troll on a mission might well have gone down…if only it were true we’d be living harmoniously in a cleaner greener world sans wankers.

  1556. john sanders on January 31, 2022 at 4:47 am said:

    Peteb: might as well confess that, that due mainly to lack of opportunity and rather modest upbringing I’ve never been too fussed with big words nor grammer and as you most certainly couldn’t help but to have noted, I was never a candidate for the yearly far western districts interschool spelling bee. I’m guessing that when push comes to shove, athough well aware of my many scholastic limitations, I’d put my vast experience up against most when it comes down to investigative prowess and ecpertise; talants born of half a lifetime in successfully exposing crooks and cranks the likes of three dim witted bar flies I could mention.

  1557. john sanders on January 31, 2022 at 7:47 am said:

    Peteb: kinda knew you could be goaded into coming back to your original Barbour spool confusion and happy for that as it all justified my time in putting your team on notice that good research gets good results ie., my Wm Barbour&Sons Ltd. (Sic). Identification. Anyhow we can might pass on my humble revelation and now try to understand why the ‘card’ was used (so effectively) as part of a prop for public appeal. firstly let’s dicount all hearsay evidence which has hever been known to be usefull in solving crime. SM bloggers, who should know better are wont to rely on it and are wont to quote it out of pure habit; to get to the heart of a crime we must first take on board ‘things that you’re liable to read in Gerry’s Bible ain’t necessarily so’ …. We can at least be reasonably sure when and where police put the press display of suitcase paraphernalia together, in that it occurred some days prior to police taking actual possession around 19/1/49. Far is things go it was a pretty clever move by the Angas Street detectives, the objects being especially selected to give maximum effect on an impatient public demanding news of progress in the SM case, the names Barbour and Keane being used to highlight the fact that the cops were getting close to making an identification. All put down to leadership of ace Detective Sgt. R. L. Leane whose cunning & wile will fail to impress the likes of those non acheivers who will never appreciate police logic so long as their brains remain in reverse gear.

  1558. john sanders on January 31, 2022 at 11:22 am said:

    Clive: You’d be a made man in Peteb’s estimation if you were to subject the back of the Wm. Barbour & Sons Ltd threads card to Xrays, then got GC to use his lime juice and Marvolin solution to bring up a reverse image from the negative. You’d still need to have Byron Deveson swing by to identify it as being the writing he first thought of ie., FOO WAS HERE 1948? Bozo could then take credit which is only fair.

  1559. john sanders on January 31, 2022 at 12:53 pm said:

    Peteb: a bit of reciprocation might help the situation if you could take my silly crap in the manner intended my man. Sorry that GC seems to be no longer sympathetic to your mixed agenda, if that be part of the problem The bastard’s a hard nosed unapologetic charlatan, as you so eloquently stated some time back, should you dare to recall.

  1560. john sanders on February 1, 2022 at 6:45 am said:

    For want of nothing better I’ve been doing some new years (tiger) on-line spring cleaning. Nothing of any consequence around the other traps apart from a few apparent past patronage omissions at Gordon’s health & happiness site. The SM Ultimate blog which I once had mostly to myself @ Dusty, is now done and dusted. Speaking of which a punter with that same NdP shows up lately on Peteb’s once favoured alternate Big Footy blog; this imposter being represented by an off white pooch (dusty) whereas, my class dogs were all black and named for your average nonindentured cotton picker of pre emancipaption days, there being no disrespect to either man or dog. Another blow-in at BF, a mysterious personage ‘The Dude’, might well be a GC take-off like Zedex and occasionally redacted on our own Dud who once showed hot wire expert Peteb how to start his KIA with a lifesaver wrap. No go at the once impressive (pre 2020) dishonestly aquired anemptyglass site and same goes for Websleuths but for the tasteful advertising blurbs. Apart from DA’s Facesaver page full of news from yesteryear, all’s quiet on the Somerton Man front. .

  1561. milongal on February 1, 2022 at 7:54 pm said:

    @PB: Firstly the “strictly speaking hearsay” lines at the beginning of the response to you is incorrect. The exact definition of hearsay might vary between jurisdictions, but the Australian Law Reform Commision highlights it doesn’t have to be verbal:
    “The hearsay rule applies to evidence of representations made out of court—whether oral, written, or in the form of conduct—that are led as evidence of the truth of the fact the maker of the representation intended to assert by the representation.”
    So IMO, referring to much of the noise in this case as “hearsay” is A-OK.

    I think a LOT of the “facts” in this case come from how the media at the time reported things – and in a hurry to get to press first, some of it gets jumbled (e.g. was the report of 2 rubaiyats being handed in – did that actually happen, or is that just confusion in a busy newspaper office that has an impending deadline to get the paper out (and a desire to report information before someone else breaks it) – even more recently in the 90s Yahoo was caught out repeating urban legends in an attempt to report “breaking news” without properly fact checking).

    The surname stuff is mildly intriguing, but I played footy of years with people whose surname I probably still don’t know. In terms of espionage, I think if we jump down that rabbit hole it’s probably stranger that they knew each others names at all (and J knew Boxall’s surname, than the fact he didn’t know hers). But at best I think all bets are off on that one – I don’t think too much can be read into that at all.

    The Freeman rubaiyat is a more interesting angle (for mine). I’ve proposed before that perhaps it was a fake (but set up by the people handing it in) that took off in their face – but any number of other ideas might work too. Although Cleland didn’t give it a microscopic examination, a Government analyst did (I think they even say as much at inquest). That said, that has always sat uncomfortably with me. I don’t know exact printing processes (you presumably have a better idea having published stuff) but the conclusion “yeap, it’s the same type of paper” to me really only indicates it was from the same printers (possibly from the same printing run – as I say my understanding here is limited).
    I struggle with “torn vs trimmed” – because a difference here seems to dismiss any usefulness to the slip (if anything it makes the suicide theory more compelling – but I have a problem with secreting the slip to that extent in that case) – which then brings me as close as I could possibly get to agreeing it was planted (for the record, it doesn’t have me agreeing with it, it simply brings me closer to that).

    Your note B and D bear some thought, although someone (possibly Gordon) has previously proposed exactly how that page fits in as a back-leaf to a book – but as others have speculated in the past that the code may have been transferred onto a different piece of paper (traced possibly via glass in some speculations). This sort of seems likely (you wouldn’t want to destroy the existing page) – but of course if that were so then all the little smudges and anomalies elsewhere on the page mean SFA (which probably doesn’t sit well in some quarters).

    I will say I have a slight problem with “the book never existed” (as opposed to something like “the police got carried away about the wrong book”) – because if the book is created by the fuzz, the code page seems totally unnecessary unless you’re trying to plant a particular narrative….Or is that kinda your point?

  1562. john sanders on February 2, 2022 at 5:02 am said:

    milongal: Saw yourTSS/ROK gaff but too late to save your bacon, put it down to GMT time factoring at my end. Gotta give it to on-the-ball GC who allerted h8s man Tbt with news of the rare CM own goal guffaw. Speaking of ROK irregularities,
    supposing Sapol brains trust including Leane bros. G.M & R.L were vexed by the less than prestine condition of their stock copy including a missing cover and unwanted identifiable overwriting. Things obviously got out of sync on time factoring for press release shedualed for July 22 or23 & unsuitable miss matching of the slip with the preferred so called Wytkin copy. Fortunately none of that high level of intrigue concerns me now that I’m quite in agreement with the much less problematical (most unpopular) Harry Strangway contention that the Somerton beach death was most likely a case of suicide.

  1563. john sanders on February 2, 2022 at 7:22 am said:

    Peteb: Gordon..Dusty’s disease? pardon Moi, I take issue with that but, not here, not now, perhaps next time around but, for the record, I have grave doubts on whether Alf ever met Jessica Harkness, let alone recall her name etc., from many years earlier…Now let’s get down to tin tacks with your intriguing little piece on the Brown/Littlemore jamb session to wit page 13 where, then still serving top notch Det. Supt. Brown spins his yarn about having taken the ROK to some analyst down town for an opinion on paper or some such. It could only have been after Sapol took possession on Saturday? 23rd July of course, so it could only have been some time in the following week, say Monday 25th. So that would be the day before Errol Canney interviewed a Sister J.E. Thomson whose phone number had came with the ROK…Reason that officers Leane & Brown didn’t speak to the nurse themselves, according to Len Brown, as attested on page 14 of the interview was that both ace detectives had by then already been reasigned to other cases and that new cops including Canney, Gollan & Co. had taken over the case…Guess Browny had been second guessed by the wiley young lawer in affirming that he had taken it upon himself to have the ROK expertly anylised for paper or tear mates to the the TS slip whatever, not relevant imo.

  1564. milongal on February 6, 2022 at 8:29 pm said:

    Disclaimer: I’m not a fan of conspiracy stuff
    but…..

    Just noticed a letter from Brown to Neil Munro (producer of Littlemore’s documentary) – there’s also a response for those interested (page 28 and 29 in the bundle). I’ve tried to include punctuation much as it is in the letter (and any words which I’d spell differently):

    ++++++++++++++++++
    Dear Neil,

    Thank you for your letter of 17th. July and hearty congratulations of the quality of production of ‘Inside story’ Not only the ‘Somerton Body’ but the story the week before. I have heard nothing but very favourable comments about both.

    At present, the office is agog with the very commendable ‘journalistic’ twist of a spy link – very well done.

    I have now retired and set off on Monday for an extended holiday to Greece, Y(o)ugoslavia, Norway, Sweden and England.

    Again, thanks for you patience, tolerance and understanding in endeavouring to make me a T.V.personality.

    Note…. Sacked on my first appearance.

    Yours sincerely,

    Len D. Brown

    ++++++++++++++++++

    The journalistic twist of a spy link seems odd to mention – especially once you put journalistic in quotes. I’d probably disimiss it as friendly banter (especially as it moves to the last lines about being a TV personality) – but thought it at least interesting enough to flag.

  1565. milongal on February 6, 2022 at 9:21 pm said:

    Brown describes Julius Combes as a “paper expert”. To me “leather and grindery” (Julius Cohn) sounds more like a bootmaker. Alex Cowan and Sons next door appears to a wholesale stationer (If we can leap from Combes to Cohn, why not Cowan – and maybe Julius was son of Alex).

    Leigh St is not a long street (and seems a bit of distance from the Cop Shop – if they were on corner of Angas and Vic Sq). Presumably they thought whoever they went to there was more an expert than anyone closer (sidenote: a bit interesting Brown remembers Leigh St so clearly – it’s an insignificant st that connects Currie to Hindley (and I think these days is full of cafe’s largely shut to all but foot traffic) – there is a slightly more prominent (albeit mainly residential) Leah St in Forestville ( – and if you’re going to a specific location to find an expert, why is it assumed to be in the city?), but there’s no obvious paper expert or Combe there.

    If we ignore the name (because it could refer to a person working within any shop, it doesn’t necessarily mean proprietor) and assume Leigh St, City is correct there are a couple other shops that warrant at lest a passing mention if you’re looking at paper and/or book:
    1) Canterbury Book Shop at number 22
    2) SA Paper Bag Co at 18

  1566. john sanders on February 7, 2022 at 3:36 am said:

    Simple answer regarding Jestyn’s uncanny ability to avoid difficult SM questions throughout her later life was possibly due to protection offered by the little known Australian Official Secrets Act It’s existance was varified by Gordon Cramer and only came to light fom his favourabe blog comments on a former respected IS colleague Gerry Feltus. who had to sign off on it whilst a member of Her Majesty’s S. A. Police Service. If true, than investigators and professionals such as lawyer Littlemore should have been aware of severe penalties for non compliance should they dare intrude on privacy of the protected witness known as Theresa Johnson.

  1567. john sanders on February 7, 2022 at 3:56 am said:

    ….of course there never was an Australian Official Secrets Act, so my advice Peteb, would be to take Gordon Cramer’s word with a jaundiced eye if that be in accord with opinion on who your mates are and who’se the foe at any given time..

  1568. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on February 7, 2022 at 10:47 am said:

    @ John Sanders. The case of Somerton will be very complicated. As I look, it’s a pretty complicated mystery. Lots of people involved in the case are already dead. This seems to be a more complicated case than, for example, the case of Zodiac in America. He went to crack quite well. I even have a photo of him at home. In the case of an Australian dead unknown man on a beach in Somerton near an orphanage, what Robin said is very interesting. And that her mother was a spy. And that she had a lot of cover now. There is, of course, a great resemblance to that Zodiac, because as I found out, he also had great coverage. From this it can be concluded that the one who has a large cover will be very difficult and difficult to find out what we need to find out. That’s right. (Zodiac was also Siajej’s agent).

  1569. john sanders on February 7, 2022 at 11:57 pm said:

    Josef Zlatodrj Prof., wasn’t Zodiac the Green Bay packer or spray painter who offed a thousand whores down by the riverside and ended up opting for a shared pizza pie and a dawn firing squad; Yair Garry Bundy, guy with the Ted Gilmore eyes. It’s all coming back now, they even wrote a song about him, ‘Put on your red dress mama and your high heeled sneakers cause you’re going down tonight’. Seems to have been a basic sub. code followed by a score more in copycat form that the cops and local papers had lots of fun with over the years….. Jerry Somerton’s own downfall was different, he tripped while descending the disabled childrens stairs opposite Alvington House, fell through a loose side rail and landed on X marks the spot. He had just enough time before passing to tear a slip with his last thoughts f ‘Tamam Shud’ from a ’59 ROK and pocket same for the Coroner’s second cousin to find in Gods good time…Death by Misadventure..easy as pie (pasty) right?

  1570. john sanders on February 8, 2022 at 9:18 am said:

    Giving Gordon a break, cranks don’t crave the attention. Here’s one for @ Mike and Mal to ponder if interested . Altogether seven sites seem to have been nominated over the years for SM’s alleged shit canning of his no longer required ’59 Rubaiyat. ..front seat, front floor pan, rear seat, rear floor well, front parcel tray, locked glove box and one other…name it if you can, otherwise buzz off and annoy some other sucker.

  1571. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on February 8, 2022 at 2:00 pm said:

    @ John Sanders. (ZODIAC) like this elusive criminal of 70 years. So what I found out from his reports is this:
    1st was in the Vietnam War – 101, Alca.
    2nd rank – sergeant.
    3. was a training instructor.
    _______________________________________
    Further research:
    4. was a CIA agent.
    5 worked at the embassy in certain years. USA.
    6. He had the task of fighting communism.
    6. Traveled and commuted between Europe and the USA.
    7. He then retired. He focused on esotericism and surrounded himself with his students. He was something like a Guru. I lost his last clue in India.
    8. According to all the marks and according to how old he would be today. So it can be concluded that he is dead.
    9. I compared the drawing of his face. With the photo I got. And the result is 99 percent. It’s him.
    10. What is important here. The important thing is that when the journalist asked him his name. So he answered her. I won’t tell you that. But call me SAM.
    11. He had Polish roots.

  1572. john sanders on February 9, 2022 at 8:29 am said:

    @Josef Zlatodej prof… Does the name Samora do anything for you, his spook connections in Bangkok, Cambodia, Philippines and Vietnam called him Sam. Go to man for Asian business leads requiring special needs. WW2 service Aust. PNG. Philippines 44/45 aged 18/19 then long NCO career in infantry ie., 101 Airborne SE. After retirement Involved in Sen. Sgts club management Vietnam. Came in from Manilla 1991, had his ‘Samora Coy’ rep office in up-market down town HCM City 92/94 then suddenly left. Bn 1925/26. med/solid bld., fair clean comp, bald, oval features, friendly disp. with air of confidence though otherwise a loner and oh so mysterious….Could he be Zodiac?, you betcha but so could a million others right?

  1573. milongal on February 9, 2022 at 7:22 pm said:

    mainly @PB….
    Someone (might have been him) floated the idea that perhaps the inscription in the Rubaiyat pre-dated Jessicam and PB’s latest speculation would be consistent with such an idea. Apologies if I’m just regurgitating that idea….

    Why she should feel the need to present Boxall a book I don’t really know, but she has had a discussion with him before about the Rubaiyat. She’s a young nurse early in her career, and while she wants to give him some parting gift. Perhaps there was an ‘inside joke’ about the Rubaiyat; or perhaps she had some sort of admiration for him and she wants to show she’s educated too; or to be honest the exact reason doesn’t really matter. In any case, somewhere along the way she finds a Rubaiyat in a second-hand shop and buys it for Boxall. She doesn’t inscribe it – hell, she doesn’t even open it and passes it on “as is”. There happens to be an inscription in there – which also happens to be from someone whose name starts with ‘J’ (not that unlikely when we consider that could be male or female – so John, Joseph, Jennifer, Jessica etc…..).

    Boxall (who doesn’t know her surname – or claims not to) thinks nothing of the J. Styn (with or without E) inscription and quite naturally assumes it’s aimed at him. When he tells Littlemore he has no idea why that verse he’s telling the truth.

    The bit that bugs me the most is the bit JS pointed out a few years ago – Boxall’s Rubaiyat is an actual book. (Assuming there’s no deliberate deception) Clearly the police didn’t show Jessica the Rubaiyat (or even the page from it) – or she has opportunistically (and possibly unplanned) seen an opportunity to point the police to Boxall (perhaps in her mind she thought it was an obscure way to appear she’s not involved: “Why would I have sent you to Boxall if I knew what was going on here?”).
    I think it’s plausible (despite his shifty demeanour on the Littlemore doc) that Boxall wasn’t involved beyond a passing acquaintance.

  1574. john sanders on February 10, 2022 at 8:20 am said:

    milongal: For a start, if it was a second hand book, it must have been newly second hand because it was published in ’44 and retained the ‘Craftsman’ specialist book shop stamp. I don’t have too much of a problem with that case scenario infact, I’ve suggested more than once that it probably belonged to a former WT member who did the Malay course and passed it on to Alf. Something everyone forgets is that the Boxall household had two ROKs, the dual language Aust. Pub. Coy. hard cover and another cleanskin pocket job like one described in contemporary newspapers. Perhaps this was the one which the press hounds were shown by Susie Boxall in ’49, neither copy was seen by police. A thing that gets on my goat immensely is when well meaning people talk of Jessica Harkness as being little more than a kid when, as best we can tell according to Feltus, she was an adult woman in her twenty fifth year by mid 1945, further more not merely a bedpan nurse aid but, likely in her penultimate year of a Sisters qualification nurses certificate course, started in 1940/41….Remember Maj. William Jestyn Moulds MBE AIF engineer who was falsely accused by Clive and Gordon (peteb & misca later) of being the prime candidate for the verse 70 inscription plus JEstyn sign off and likely head of a clandestine operations cell which included foreign agents Harkness & Boxall. Well good news for the family is that both his WW2 files at NAA have been stripped of their service history so trolls like those aforementioned can no longer use their content to discredit a fine loyal soldier of King George and his own country of birth.

  1575. John Sanders … ‘trolls like those aforementioned can no longer use their (the NAA) content to discredit a fine loyal soldier of King George and his own country of birth’
    Well, old veteran, let me congratulate you on behalf of the sons and daughters of the 453 and 76 fighter squadrons for being a hypocrite beyond belief.
    And Nick, it’s been both good and bad here over the many years … but the bad has won. Goodbye Dome, and all the very best.
    Pete.

  1576. Pete: so long, and hope to see you at the Somerton Man name unveiling ceremony.

  1577. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on February 10, 2022 at 3:13 pm said:

    @John Sanders + Pete.
    I looked at what is written in those Bookal books. You read the word there. PENITENCE. Bottom left is 10. You have to take it this way. Jesica “JO”, she could encrypt. So where is the magic? I’ll show you. Everything is in the word PENITENCE. Replace the characters P + T in that word. You will read the word TENIFENCE. And now divide it (TEN and FENCE). In the word FENCE. That means in English – a fence. But in the Czech language, you will exchange the sent character T for D. And you will read the word – (PLOD. Jessica knew Jewish encryption. Number 4 = D, M, T. The word PLOD means child. English Fetus.

    The word TEN is also important. when you look at how Jessica spelled the word JO. So you could read it as the number 10. And the rain is English TEN.

    So what follows from that. Jessica writes that I have a baby from Baxall.

    No PENITENCE.

    But – TEn i fence = in Czech there is the word -ten, indicative pronoun. So he’s pointing at someone (Boxalla). And rika mu tim. You have a baby.

    Jessica seems to like having sex. Boxall prepared it for the milk. It was wild and the hair was behind the pictures in the hotel.

  1578. john sanders on February 10, 2022 at 10:58 pm said:

    @A Known Troll: Mighty magnanimous of you on behalf of sons and daughters of RAF 453 and RAAF 76 Sqns., fellows of true grit like Bluey Trudcott who paid with his life and others of the type. Regards to siblings Judy and Anthony for their own congratulations to you especially ‘Peter Bowes’, wish it could be a fond farewell but, I doubt your sincerity, afterall, people of your form and known preference arn’t likely to leave their mates behind to hold the fort, or am I mistaken.

  1579. john sanders on February 11, 2022 at 2:32 pm said:

    Got a newby on a surfboard over WS/TS asking stupid questions on the need for a Barbour thread card on the tools of trade first suitcase contents press release pic which of course deserved the answer expected. Here’s one at least as good for a mug, the card in question came from the Lisburn plant in Ulster NI, not Australia where factories were churning out the stuff by the shitload for war contracts by 1940. Could it be that SM was therefore a Kean/keane/Keen from Ulster, in fact the name was big on linen thread production in its own right, even now. There was a William Keene and a Bethia Kean aboard the SS Stratheden in 1938, along with a John D. Barbour heir and successor to the original Barbour yarn spinners. John & William gave Sydney addresses while the colleen was booked through to Auckland on another tub. Hope it’s of some use but, not to me it isn’t.

  1580. Byron Deveson on February 11, 2022 at 10:11 pm said:

    JS, Yes, not the unrelated other Barbour company. I note that the Lisburn Barbour company waxed linen thread was mainly used for fishing nets and leather work.

  1581. Byron Deveson on February 11, 2022 at 10:46 pm said:

    JS, there are two Barbour companies that deal in waxed linen thread and, name apart, they appear to be unrelated. The SM associated Barbour thread card carries a date 1784 on some sort of company advertising spiel and there is a company, Viyella, who make waterproof clothing that could have come with a Barbour (of Lisburn, Northern Ireland, not the Barbour company in Yorkshire that has previously been assumed as the source of the waxed thread card) waxed linen thread repair kit.
    A company, Hollins, “ … started business in 1784 in Pleasley, about 20 miles away on the Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire border. Later their offices were at Viyella House in Nottingham.” Hollins, later re-named Viyella. The Viyella Wikipedia article states “Officers in the British and other Commonwealth armies purchased their own uniforms during the Second World War, and Viyella shirts were a desirable option.” Viyella did, and still does, make waterproof clothing so might have included a Barbour repair kit with their products in the 1940s such as a sou’wester.
    Bottom line for me? This strengthens the possibility that SM was a British or Commonwealth serviceman, possibly a naval man.

  1582. john sanders on February 11, 2022 at 10:57 pm said:

    BD, Yes what. I’m not picking up your drift. Hey about the mystery writing on the card and also what’s your take on the company logo vis. left hand palm outward

  1583. john sanders on February 12, 2022 at 2:51 am said:

    Byron: We’re talking about a specific purpose repair card produced by ‘The Linen Thread Co.’ of Linburn northern Ireland (Hilden plant); A cost saving 19th century amalgamation of several local flax spinning mills, largest being William Barbour & Sons. They became by far the worlds largest linen thread manufacturers pre WW1, expanding operations to countries as diverse as Brazil, Germany and largest of all Paterson NJ USA. New Zealand (flax mills) and Australia (spinning) came into their sphere of foreign involvement much later. Back now to keeping things simple and logical, it can be shown that the suitcase threads card was an Irish import brought to Australia either as trade goods or else in a passenger’s kit which is not for us to know. You seem to be delving in an area that is of doubtful significance eg., mere mention of some high end weather resistant clothing repair kit, which SM didn’t possess, doesn’t accord with the old KISS axiom or Occam’s Razor by extension.

  1584. john sanders on February 13, 2022 at 4:53 am said:

    Latest from Toms on the Abbott v Feltus rivalry is centred on Derek’s rather tiresome and rambling saga which, for want of a better title, ‘Somerton Hour’ is quite appropriate. The video of 60 minutes duration is thankfully time frame and essential for bypassing the crap for any slim signs of substance worth a gander.
    Peteb has kindly come in from forced retirement to give his own afterword on certain subject matters. Ones that relate of course to his unshared views, all long discredited but, of which he is not allowing reason to get the upper hand.

    19min 7 secs.

    “They, (the box of Bryan & May matches) were found later, before the autopsy when the man was undressed and found in one of his pockets”…. Dereck Abbott.

    “A reasonable man would have expected that a find this important would have merited a word or two on the deposition of whoever it was that found the matches, yes? But, search as long as you like you won’t find one”…Peter Bowes.

    This might not be quite what our indignant blogger friend was unable to find in the inquest affidavits but, the following which forms part of that given by case officer Det. R.L. Leane get’s pretty close to mark one might think. but not Peter Bowes.

    “……The cigarette packet was Army Club but contents were Kensitas a different
    brand, there was also found a box of Bryant & May’s matches a quarter full….”

    .

  1585. @ milongal: that post about the Boxall Rubaiyat signature timing might have been mine. It was triggered by a paper by Brewster & Reid (1988) which was essentially a biog of A W Hamilton. In the absence of any available records from the Australasian Publications company, they contacted ex-staff who said the company tended to do commission-based printing for a specific client rather than taking on the risk of printing for distribution and sale. That fits with the conventional wisdom (restated by the ubiquitous JS) that this edition was an “uncirculated” text. They postulated that it was Hamilton that ordered the printing with the idea he could “unload” them later. A theory strengthened by his apparent offer of the half price sale of his books to the AIF when promoting the teaching of Malay to servicemen. All this fits with the changes made from the first edition which, like Hamilton’s earlier nursery rhyme texts, targeted Malay speakers. In the 1944 edition a Malay-English glossary and a pronunciation aid were added, suggesting its more targeted for learners of Malay. So it seems they were most likely printed to order to support the teaching of Malay by either AIF or Hamilton, himself.

    The fact they weren’t destined for retail distribution made it surprising to me that there was a bookshop label in the front of Boxall’s copy. I can’t find any evidence that the Craftsman Bookshop had a second hand department, but I know their contemporaries did and I’d be surprised if they didn’t with shortened print runs and a lack of raw materials during the war.

    So assuming it was second hand, I think the unusual capitalisation of the ‘E’ and the very different weight and script of the rest of the signature, make the most obviously supported scenario that these two parts of the sig have been written by different people. With Jessie and Alf both claiming no further contact (beyond a single contact Alf denies), I think it also makes more sense that a second hand book would be handed over to a new acquaintance as something to read during planned travels. So as a hypothesis, it sits nicely with the witness statements of those most closely involved. Including Jessie’s ex-work colleagues who suggested Jestyn was a mash-up of Jessie and Tina; so I’m still guessing the unusual signature is most likely due to the alteration of an existing inscription simply signed ‘E’. Probably originating from some casual chat: “so which is it, Jess or Tina?”; “Both!”; “so Jestyn, then?”… etc.

    In other words: the reality might actually be very close to how the key parties described it.

  1586. milongal on February 14, 2022 at 8:29 pm said:

    Thanks Jamie, although not so sure about adding J Styn around the E (I was thinking the opposite – adding an E into J Styn, or something – or the possibility none of that was touched by her at all).

    That said, with PB having re-surfaced Jessica’s letters there does seem to be some similarity in the writing – although I’ll admit some of the differences I dismiss somewhere between “different type of pen” and “evolution of handwriting over time” – but there’s things like “and then” that appear in both, and have some striking similarities (larger ‘a’ than other chars in ‘and’, similar shape ‘d’ and ‘then’ with the ‘h’ rather than the ‘t’ crossed) – which kinda makes my “what if she didn’t write it idea” a little more difficult to sell.

    The “Tiny Jess” = “Jess Tina” = “Jestyn” I have a bit of a problem with too. Aside from “was she really so small people called her tiny”, it just seems a peculiar explanation – although maybe there’s a bit of an inside joke if Boxall called her Tiny (or forgotten her name and called her Tina at their first meeting, or something). But I still find it a fairly strange name to end up with from that.

    There is a (slightly obscure) Jestyn mentioned in a 1944 newspaper – nothing particularly linked, but might be the source of some sort of joke. Col. John Jestyn Llewelyn was food minister in Britain at the time, and appears in the paper announcing that Scotch Whiskey production (which had halted for the war) was to resume – but only for export. From memory Boxall talks about having a few beers at the Clifton rather than whiskeys – but perhaps he’d commented at some stage that he’s on the beers because of a whiskey shortage…It’s one helluva stretch (especially given you’d imagine the Rubaiyat has much nicer “the world is getting it’s whiskey back” quotes) and it still leaves the capital ‘E’ difficult to explain away.

  1587. milongal on February 14, 2022 at 8:39 pm said:

    Not sure whether trove has hidden tags someone has been adding, or has a surprisingly good relevance algorithm. I searched for ‘Jestyn’ and selected articles from the ’40s – and the story of Boxall comes up – despite no mention of Jestyn in the article…

    It also comes up with the following from June 1941 (which reminds me of something JS may have mentioned in the past – except I thought he was talking about a Henley drowning):
    ——-
    An Inquest into the death of Frederick Alexander Webb, storekeeper, of Moseley
    street. Glenelg. was adjourned by the Acting City Coroner (Mr. G. Ziesing) yesterday until 10 a.m. tomorrow. Webb’s body was found on the beach at Somerton on June 4. Dr S. Krantz. of North Terrace said that he had formed
    the opinion that death was due to drowning. There were extensive wounds on the right arm which could have been caused by a shark. In the body were found 2.8 grains of a drug group which included veronal. The actual dose
    was five grains although the body could absorb quantities of the drug and leave no trace. This group of drugs could cause depression.
    ——

  1588. milongal on February 16, 2022 at 2:09 am said:

    Incidentally, I thought I’d mentioned but can’t find it…..
    Craftsman Books specialised in books related to the Arts. They seem to fairly regularly have written book reviews and recommendations. Through the mid-1940s I notice a lot of them seemed to be Ballet related.

    Doesn’t particularly mean much, but I know how much everyone likes speculating on such things.

    Also had a bit of a dig into how much a Rubaiyat would cost (adverts in the papers) – and naturally there’s a lot of variation (presumably depending on the format, cover etc). The ones I found range from 5s/6 from Whitcombe and Tombs (NOT the “Courage and Friendship” series)) to 35s/- from Dymocks. One that I think sounded comparable (but not the same) to Boxalls was around 20s/- brand new (most of these were also available to be posted – but since none of them came from Craftsmans that’s probably a moot point).

  1589. Yes, I found a site that talked about the Craftsman Bookstore being “well known for its salon-like atmosphere”. Not sure what that means but it sounds pretty laid back and arty.

    There’s a used bookshop in Melbourne advertising a Malay-English Rubaiyat for 7/6 by mail in the Sydney Herald of 16 June 1945. Doesn’t say what edition, but it must be a Hamilton. Thats the only example I can find.

    I managed to buy a copy a while back. It was sent to RE Foulger (Malayan Police) by AW Hamilton in Oct ’46. Can’t for the life of me see any microwriting in it.

  1590. John Sanders on February 20, 2022 at 6:30 am said:

    Byron Deveson: your remark on limited use of needles in 1948 is clearly untrue, as you point out by refering to exceptions like everyday use of anti biotics and commonality of vaccination jabs by then.. Anyway we can live with a tiny gaff like that but, as for your post and caption of Somerton Man’s face cast with tape clearly to be seen covering the left side bridge of the nose, there is nothing but white plaster. I note also that similar claims you’ve sighted over the years of like mortuary photos, durex is once again absent from the snoz.

  1591. John Sanders on February 21, 2022 at 8:17 am said:

    Most people familiar with SM’s missing autopsy and contested results given to the inquest must wonder, as does Peteb’s new fancy, Matt on how the heck the man managed to appear in fine fettle, yet be afflicted with just about every internal malady known to medical science. I’ve been wondering lately about how the three learned anatonomical experts all concurred in unison that poison taken orally was without doubt the culprit and, affirmed while complementing the skill of Bob Cowan and his team, who found no trace of poison. So I’ve been doing a little background sleuthing lately, interest being fuelled by Dr. John Dwyer’s missing autopsy report for one, and the fact that big names Prof. Cleland and Sir Stamford Hicks seemed to have a lot of poison based input despite, neither having made any physical evaluations of their own; basing their evidrnce on what Dwyer had already attested to…Results of my delving, whilst revealing nothing notably dishonest in Bob’s background at all (apart from having been a former resident of Moseley St., as was Dr. John, both before the 1948 dead line), not the same can be said for the threesome of Dwyer, Cleland and Hicks. In the case of our knight of the realm Cec Hicks who married his nurse and wrote dietry manuals, also dabling in being a most complient expert witness on just about anything, he told blatant lies about his non existant WW1 military service as a teenaged expeditionary NZ subaltern. Something similar applied to Doc Dwyer; not being satisfied with his WW2 MBE award, the crook tried to pull a swifty to get an extra gong on his medal rack by claiming to be at the front tending wounded, seems he was over in London well out of harm’s way. As for Prof. John Cleand, he was once caught out giving blatant false t3stimony at a death inquest where a young gaye medical student died in suspicious circumstances on the banks of the River Torrens before being tossed in. There you have it, three star witnesses in collusion to validate their particular stand on death by poison, a result befitting their game plan whatever it may have been.

  1592. John Sanders on February 24, 2022 at 4:18 am said:

    Matt: hopefully in time, you’ll get used to Peteb’s re phrasing of your otherwise well thought out comments, if meaning and intent be incongruent with the true facts: Particular case in point being (late) editing of your mistakes re., ROK editions and print run history (not fakes) etc., which can be confusing to many Americans not familiar with British publishing nuances. Also becoming familiar with Bozo’s strict ‘speak when spoken to’ axiom will likely keep one in the good books at TBT.

  1593. John Sanders on February 25, 2022 at 6:16 am said:

    Apotheosis eh, nice pitcher Bozo, love the murder of crows not sure about the nests though. Could of fooled me too, I’d of swore blind it was a half decent Russell Drysdale from part of his ‘Back O’ Bourke’ series. Never heard of your Visili joker, sounds like a Ruskie but doubt he’s our Jerry Somerton if that’s what you’re on about.

  1594. John Sanders on February 26, 2022 at 5:39 am said:

    No place on SM blogs for peace overtures imo; especially coming from one that never had to fight for it like you GC. Sometimes it’s best to give war a chance, if there be no better alternative. Mankind never had any lasting benefit from such a rotting deadly peace as one like ours that’s lasted too long. War is afterall in the very nature of man and no matter the cause or cost. Hopefully when he gets the call to arms he will dutifully gird up his loins and join the slaughter, with God’s blessing of course. PS: old RAR sub unit motto Gordon…Duty First & Who Cares Who Wins.

  1595. Clive J. Turner on February 26, 2022 at 10:57 am said:

    Where would the world be if war criminals like Putin had free reign to do what they wanted? You and I and, countless others would find themselves in prison or dead.

  1596. John Sanders on February 26, 2022 at 12:40 pm said:

    ….Or red, so long as we’re prepared to abide by the US Wink’n Blinken and Nod philosophy that, ‘the yanks aren’t coming til it’s over over there’, for we all that care to remember twentieth century history Clive.

  1597. John Sanders on February 27, 2022 at 3:18 am said:

    Pretty low of Peteb to run down Det. R.L. Leane for incompetence going back to day one 1st December, 1948 at the beach. Truth of the matter being, the officer was on unrelated duties and only assigned to the SM case on 8th January, six days before the Keane suitcase came to light. One can hardly blame poor Lional for any oversights made prior to his involvement, merely to satisfy the whims of a clown who deals in ‘facts’ made to suit a specified agenda..his own!!

  1598. John Sanders on February 27, 2022 at 11:16 am said:

    Well, thanks for the heads up Peteb but, you’re still well off the mark in respect to acting Det Sgt. Leane having been adminstrative case officer. That honour goes to Lionel’s high flying brother acting Det. Inspector G.M. Leane MC., understudy to CIB boss Supt. Bill Sheriden from memory. Geoff was a decorated Colonel during the war and was responsible for setting up Interpol in 1952. Oh yeah, he also eventually became acting Commissioner of Sapol, so you might as well blame him for all the mistakes made during your faulty TSM [sic] investigations.

  1599. milongal on February 27, 2022 at 8:49 pm said:

    Sure I’ve mentioned it before…..despite Leane not being in the pic until a month and a bit later, in Littlemore’s doco (or the out-takes thereof) he mentions a syringe being found nearby. Suggests to me (something I suspect I’ve oft flagged) the tendency of (most) people to create a story rather than admit they don’t know something (and the biases when you’re asked to confirm something rather than offer an opinion).

    Littlemore actually asks him what happened to the syringe, and Leane’s best response is “probably still in evidence”.

    +++ (p61)
    Littlempore: Suicide, did you think?
    Leane: Well I – I – yes I think that he – he suicided because back about 100 yards from where he was sitting on the seat I found a hypodermic syringe

    …. (p62)….
    Littlemore: What happened to the hypodermic syringe, do you remember?
    Leane: It’s down there in the place, still

    … (p63)….
    Leane: Injected himself. Dropped the syringe as he went.

    … (p64)….
    Littlemore: What about the hypodermic syringe? – You reckon they’ve got it?
    Leane: They’ve got it
    ++++++++

    Incidentally, while looking that up I came across some arrogance I’d missed originally…
    Leane: “Well it might have been solved today if I had [been on the case from the start”

  1600. John Sanders on February 28, 2022 at 8:23 am said:

    milongal: Gotta be fair on the old gent, that’s Lionel Leane not Peteb in this case. A man of a certain age long into retirement and notably senile when intervirwed by Littlemore in ’78. In fact he was dead less than a year later at 76, nearly as old as the aforesad Peteb, par for course in those days. He made several spontaneous gaffs, my favourite being when asked about the TS slip’s finding, his rosponse of , “Yeah it was in his coat pocket” was quick as a flash. I always respected him based on statements in the ’49 press; a dambed sight more than the joker who wrote the book I might add; whatsmore his taste in piss (Coopers) was a mark of the man.

  1601. milongal on February 28, 2022 at 7:47 pm said:

    I agree with the comment about Coopers, although in that age in Adelaide you basically had a choice of two Coopers or SA Brewing (West End/Soutwark). Given that choice, Coopers i s no-brainer (cue the West End fanbois telling me otherwise).

    The note of “Cooper’s Beer for Leane” has me picturing 3 longies of Sparkling….although given others got about $50 for their appearance on the show, perhaps it was closer a slab for Leane….

  1602. John Sanders on March 1, 2022 at 9:37 am said:

    Peteb: An old soldier mate of Alf Boxall’s named Xavier Herbert authored a book circa. 50s entitled ‘Soldier’s Women’. After a few pages you’ll come to the early realisation that loose shielas’s, married or nay, had a rather socially acceptable time whilst the lads were either fighting and dieing or else slaughtering eyeties, Krauts and nips in far away places. Not Alf or Xavier though, too long in the tooth.

  1603. John Sanders on March 4, 2022 at 7:35 am said:

    So despite being caught out on poor date framing just days ago, Peteb is still prepared to blame Det. A/Sgt. Leane for all that went wrong, by his estimation, even though Lionel wasn’t on the case until weeks later. No worries folks, the incompetent plod should’ve been prepping to take over from day four when SM’s prints were fast tracked to Sydney for Australia wide search and further afield as was the case. This was not done at R.L. Leane’s instigation as Bozo incorrectly claims but through SC Dudley Aebi, OIC Adelaide FP Bureau.

  1604. milongal on March 9, 2022 at 7:24 pm said:

    Going into the nay-saying mode that I have a reputation for….
    The problem with having too much conspiracy about the Rubaiyat itself, is that it simply doesn’t need to be there. The suggestion that the TS slip was deliberately introduced, but then the Rubaiyat itself needed to be covered up seems at odds with itself.

    – The easiest way to stop the Rubaiyat stuff is to never find the slip (which some suggest was planted)
    – If the powers that be didn’t get in in time to stop this, the next easiest way is to suppress the find of the Rubaiyat itself(“Someone brought one in, but believe it or not, it was the wrong one” (sidenote about press confusion over 2 rubaiyats))
    – Having admitted the rubaiyat exists it would still be possible to suppress the presence phone number (and the code)
    – etc.

    The typical response to this is that not every orifice in the police farce was a puppet – but this still makes no sense (see almost every rant I’ve ever had). This requires us to simultaneously need to accept that the string pullers could manipulate things almost at will from some angles, but were totally hamstrung from others (that seem simpler). This seems to be particularly problematic if Leane or Cleland is puppeteer or puppet.

    So if we accept that Boxall wrote v70** at the direction of others, we need to ask “to what end?”. The whole rubaiyat story could have been stifled well before we get to Boxall….so it seems unnecessary to add an obscure clue that just befuddles things – when that whole angle seems totally unnecessary.
    One of the problems I have with people who talk about ‘fake clues’ (or similar), is that there needs to be a reason for them. Plant a bus ticket to make it look like we have an origin – sure. Plant an unused train ticket – maybe explainable, but things are getting more difficult. Plant a verse in the Rubaiyat that seems meaningless to everyone (and isn’t even flagged by the people trying to steer the investigation a paricular direction) – what’s the point? If I plant (what I think is) an obvious clue and the simpletons don’t catch on, wouldn’t I try to steer them toward the narrative I’m trying to set up?

    This is one of my biggest problems with too much of a conspiracy. We have the power to plant these powerful clues, but we don’t have the ability to make sure those involved reach the right conclusion. Seems odd.

    **to my eye there are aspects of Jessica’s letters that make the writing look very similar to hers – although I’ll accept there’s some differences too (the use of different types of pen/pencil could account for some of it)

  1605. John Sanders on March 20, 2022 at 7:48 am said:

    Sadly Peteb needs to be reminded once again that our Somerton Man’s fingerprints were reportedly forwarded to Sydney CIB Central Fingerprint Bureau for a full Australasian comparison search following negative checks of S.A. indices on 3/12/48, the day of their taking. A number of newspapers listed on the Tomsbytwo site reported this event a day later so we can thereby assume validity of same.

  1606. Peteb on March 20, 2022 at 9:13 am said:

    Then why send same to all police stations in the country on January 3?

  1607. John Sanders on March 20, 2022 at 7:30 pm said:

    Peteb: Stories put out by rags like the Cairns post and Hobart Mercury on 3/12/49 do not give specific dates, just an overall take in their shared aspertions that every State police HQs had been sent full copies of your so called TSM’s prints. Whereas on the ball mainstream tabloids of a month earlier provided a much more detailed overview of contemoraneous events. Anyone not obsessed with connections to hoardes of infiltrating nazis rocket scientists and the threatening red menace of that late forties era might reasonably conclude, wouldn’t you think?

  1608. John Sanders on March 20, 2022 at 9:06 pm said:

    PS…….and you might care to adjust the year of the latest ground breaking news with highlighted date for priority international release of ‘TSM’ fingerprints to 1948 lest the implications of such an otherwise earth shattering event, be taken as fact by a bevy of the usual Tbt punters not allert enough to spot the mistake.

  1609. International release you say, John Sanders. If, say, I was a South Australian copper in 1949 and about to mail copies of fingerprints to the UK and Canada in the hope they would have them on file, where would I have sent them?

  1610. milongal on March 21, 2022 at 12:13 am said:

    Found something mildly interesting – Channel 7 has a FOI request to SAPol to do with the National DNA Program for Uniidentified and Missing Persons (I don’t think that the request is SM related).
    So far it seems pretty mundane email exchanges between AFP and SAPol, nut at page 61 it lists all their UHR (Unidentified Human Remains) cases. I suspect first on the list is SM (although the case number listed as 49/01 – which implies 1949 not 1948, but perhaps that’s the date the UHR case was opened rather than when the remains were found).
    It has “Skull Present: No” and “Teeth Present: No” which is mildly interesting (of course I’m not CERTAIN this is SM, and the “no” may refer to the fact that SAPol don’t (or didn’t when the report was made) have the skull – this report may have been generated before SM was exhumed). In any case, the bit that interests me a little more is that something is redacted under “Other testing completed”.

    NB: if someone wants to trawl through it (it’s not about SM so it might bore most people) google “SAPOL-FOI-Determination-21-0821”
    Some of the requested documentation was not released on the basis it had been released elsewhere – but appears to be behind a paywall

  1611. Hopefully this will find Nick Pelling, John Sanders and Milongal in a receptive, if not reflective mood, and anyone else who likes a challenge.

    I’d like to talk about taking fingerprints.

    The suitcase suspected to belong to the Somerton man held a cornucopia of identifiable items fingerprint-wise but DS Leane preferred to adopt a different approach in his efforts to positively identify who owned it and instead took a few bits and pieces back to the station to be photographed and distributed to the press, hoping their publication of same would do the job for him.
    Remembering that Leane’s suspicion that the case belonged to the Somerton Man was based upon the dated ticket found in his pocket and the similar date the unclaimed suitcase was lodged at the Railway Station luggage office.

    The last time I mentioned this, Milongal, always quick off the mark, opined that the glass dish, scissors and knife, comb, cigarette lighter etc would not have yielded clear prints despite the expertise of james Durham, a man renowned for his skill in print-taking, and despite it would have been more than likely that they were only handled by whoever packed them. The police of course would have known the drill and not messed them up themselves.

    So, given all that, why do you think the Detective Inspector failed to fingerprint these items? Surely they would have given him a result faster than waiting for someone to read a newspaper and recognise them as belonging to someone they knew.

    And this itself begs the question as to why the Barbour Thread was included in the pic in the first place as its particular usage by TSM was only made known some months later by Professor Cleland when he informed Leane of it in April 1949, yet Leane appeared to have known this the day he first opened the suitcase.

  1612. John Sanders on March 23, 2022 at 8:39 am said:

    Peteb: For starters how can you be so sure that your so called Detective inspector didn’t have the suitcase and it’s contents examined for prints by Dudley Aebi at CIB HQ upon discovery ? Just because Feltus nor the Adelaide press club weren’t so informed don’t mean it didn’t happen’. As I’ve said time and time again, to what end anyway?, seeing as your TSM’s post mortem prints lifted by Glenelg man Jim Durham on 3/12/48 and immediately circulated far and wide did not get any hits. That was surely the sole objective, police being satisfied by then of ownership status. As for the rest of your tiresome re-Pete crap, perhaps the likes of Nick and Milongal will respond more kindly as is their prerogative

  1613. milongal on March 23, 2022 at 7:41 pm said:

    Peteb: Have you got a reference somewhere to Durham’s expertise. I can find a lot of information about him being a fingerprint expert, but my reading is that he was an expert in comparing prints, not lifting them (more than happy to be pointed to a reference that says otherwise – because I accept I may have just been looking in the wrong places). This includes a cited case from 1932 (from memory) which Durham solved by matching fingerprints – but my understanding is it was a fingerprint in a blood smear on glass – that is, a patent (ie visible) not a latent print. It’s difficult to find when trying to reveal latent prints actually became common – there’s references to powders existing in the 19th Century, but most resources I can find talk about recording and comparing fingerprints rather than exposing them.

    From much of my reading (and as before, happy to be directed somewhere that suggests otherwise) Durham absolutely understood how to show 2 fingerprints were the same, but I’m not convinced finger-print lifting was his game. It’s also worth noting that early “dusts” used were highly toxic (largely because of the colourings they used) – and so I could easily believe that the use of them was limited to “formal crimescenes” (and a lost property suitcase linked to an unidentified person doesn’t immediately fit that bill).
    On that basis it wouldn’t surprise me that it either never occurred to them or that they dismissed any notion of checking for prints as “not worth it”.

    Short Version: I’m not particularly troubled by the fuzz not looking for prints. In any event, point me to some articles about Durham’s experience in revealing latent prints and I might reconsider.

  1614. John Sanders on March 23, 2022 at 8:36 pm said:

    No word yet from GC pertaining to his own vast experience with lifting prints and other items of more personal interest…It might also be noted that our good fiend has of late reverted to the international 24 hours time system and stated locstats in order to conforn with GCHQ SOI’s, so good on you once again Gordon and hope your emotional health holds up old man.

  1615. John Sanders on March 24, 2022 at 3:54 am said:

    At least both GC and his fellow micro brained buddy Peteb have chosen to stick by their non conformist stubborn ways in critising the plod for apparent dereliction of precedural duty to routinely fingerprint the Kean suitcase & contents; Though the former, to his credit did at least concede the remote possibility that Leane may have undertaken the task without informing dead-eyed Peteb or the press. I thought that both put their respective points across quite reasonably and with appropriate degree of indignance as expected of both. Whilst the latter’s opinion of milongal’s sole reliance on his own boastful lead taking role seems unfairly harsh and out of order, claimed impertinence on the part of one considered by most to be an unseemly troll is understandable. Regarding our host choosing not to join in offering contraversial, perhaps biased personal opinion, well surely that be the prerogative of all moderators…and to their credit I guess.

  1616. milongal on March 24, 2022 at 3:57 am said:

    Found a lot of stories about Durham on trove (consistently called fingerprint-expert) but few if any talk about lifting prints.
    There are a few stories about him identifying dead bodies by their prints – but that’s a bit different than matching possessions to people – and I might almost double down on the plausibility that his angle for fingerprints was to cross-reference with known records, not to link to evidence.

    So I’m thinking:
    1) He’s the guy that knows how to match fingerprints not necessarily how to get them
    2) His angle here isn’t about proving links to inanimate objects, it’s literally just a hope he can identify the body

    There is a quaint story where he’s called to a pub to investigate brandy thefts. Almost Holmes-esquely (maybe that exaggerates) hhile “noone is looking” he brushes some “special dust” on a batch of the bottles, and when he’s called in to investigate them going missing the next day he uses an ultra violet light to catch the culprit.

  1617. Sanders, really? So how do you explain all the SAPOL high-fives in April when Prof Cleland phoned in with news of the thread match? Get on the ball, mate, or the game might leave you behind.

  1618. John Sanders on March 24, 2022 at 9:26 am said:

    The phone call in April was your smart arse idea cobber, made with reluctant backing of GC and his man from Leeds, both now strangely absent from your mailing list. Most of the Feltus believers took the word of honest Len Brown when claiming in his interview with Stuart Littlemore that said event went down just prior to the inquest (17/6/49), claiming elsewhere that he was actually present for the alleged handover. Unlike your good self who picked on April possibly for some timeline convenience or else it matched with your birth month for easy later recall.

  1619. Ah yes, good old honest Len, bit of a stumblebum though when giving Littlemore a few straight answers, like where is the book? ……. er, says Len, ……..aaaah, says Len, ……. well, says Len.
    Do better, Sanders, come up with a winner, we know you’ve got it in you.

  1620. milongal on March 24, 2022 at 10:13 pm said:

    @PB I didn’t notice the research bit…..well maybe I’ll bite. This is my angle.
    Your assert that Durham was a master of lifting prints off any surface known to man. I haven’t found anything that suggests that. I’ll happily concede that you may well be right – but then why the reluctance to point me to where that opinion comes from?

    It’s easy to say “bugger off, do your own research”. But I question that you can assert something as gospel and then when anyone challenges it (because they’ve been unable to corroborate it) you get defensive and say “find it yourself” – when the very reason I’m asking is because in looking for it, I can’t find it. Perhaps ironically, it reminds me of my exchanges with your ex-mate GC when I challenged some of his Fedosimov claims and he dismissed my thoughts based on information that he claimed he knew, but expected me to go looking for. You pulled me into the conversation, and I obliged with my opinion. I’m guessing you expected roughly the response I gave (although I won’t go as far as you had prewritten the comment on your blog ready for it). Clearly you expected it and still don’t like it – the onus seems on you to show me I’m wrong – I haven’t asked you to do any research – I merely explained my view and told you (quite specifically) what might help alter that view….given it’s not forth coming, I’ll continue not wasting my time digging in that direction.

    It does sometimes fascinate me how protective and adversarial people in this space are. We’re all convinced we’re correct, but when challenged about any aspect of our opinion we insist that others shouldn’t be privy to the information that brought us to that opinion. (I say “we” because I’ll accept I might have been guilty of similar in the past (*might*)).

  1621. John Sanders on March 24, 2022 at 10:21 pm said:

    PB: now that you mention it, in re concealed messages concealed beneath every single word of ROK origin, worth reminding folks with memory loss that, ever since your over exuberant accolades for Gordon’s original letter ‘Q’ micro poop scoop, nothing more was ever forthcoming. Guess he realised you were taking the micky out of him eh?

  1622. milongal on March 24, 2022 at 10:36 pm said:

    @PB: the 2nd part of your comment (which I think I’ve ranted about more times than I’ve changed my jocks (so at least 3)). The problem with a puppeteer telling them what to find and not find is “to what end”?
    Why did we need to find the TS slip – let alone the Rubaiyat – let alone the phone number in it or the scribblings in the back.

    Why would someone be desperate to suppress the identity, but ensure that the case remains interesting in the public eye. It doesn’t seem to make sense (at least to me). It requires us to simultaneously believe that someone had the clout to be able to control what information went public, and that all sorts of things leaked out that shouldn’t have.

    Someone (I don’t think it was you, perhaps your phantom) argued that they needed to send a message to someone, so certain things had to be public. But surely blind Freddie could see that creating the TS/Rubaiyat/Code was going to cause furore in the public space – surely there are more subtle ways to get the same message across (even if there is some reason you can’t contact them directly)?

    FWIW I think you current number 1 fan (Sly One) makes an interesting point (I’m not sure it’s quite what they meant) about fingerprinting a suspected weapon vs fingerprinting other stuff. I think there’s a lot of weight you put on a fairly mundane observation. And the possibility exists (as I think JS suggests above somewhere) that the suitcase was fingerprinted and came up with nothing. We don’t actually have very accurate records of what was and wasn’t done – and the details people remember are the ones that they thought were signifcant to them.

    I hope you realise I’m not saying “You’re wrong” – I’m saying “I don’t agree”. It’s not personal, it’s that (as I’m sure you realise) my default position is to disagree until there’s evidence that convinces me otherwise (and most people see me as quite negative as a result). At this time, I haven’t seen evidence that convinces me that avenue is really even worth going down….mainly because I don’t think the apparent lack of “fingerprint everything” in this case is all that significant – and nothing has convinced me otherwise.

  1623. Geez, Milongal … there’s a post on tomsbytwo headed The part James Durham wasn’t asked to play blah blah …. Look down the list of posts on the right hand side to find it, click on it, read it and click on the link.
    Job done, ok?
    Your second question is a beauty, haven’t been asked that before and if you don’t mind I’ll make a post out of it as your question deserves a more permanent response, rather than being lost in Dome’s misc category. Speaking of whom, where is old temple-top? Just because the poms were THRASHED at the Ashes series doesn’t mean he should hide under the bed.

    Sanders, I’ll admit being an early believer of Cramer’s work on micro writing, especially the letter Q … don’t know how he did it but I’m pretty sure I can get the local photo genius to get the same result. He’s got a shop window full of happy family images on one side and another of the same family minus the missing the divorced husband or wife on the other. I’m thinking of getting him to pair me up with Kate Moss.

  1624. John Sanders on March 25, 2022 at 6:52 pm said:

    Simple about Durham PB and, you’ll excuse the repetition. When Jim did the inltial scenes of crime and fingerprinting at the morgue, he was with Strangway working out of Glenelg, not Angas St. where the Leane team were formed six weeks later. Your constant mention of his not being called in for the suitcase does not hold water therefore. Durham had worked the beach districts and as far east as Mt. Gambier since 1934, under jurisdiction of Glenelg where he raised his kids and resided through to his passing in 82 from memory. More experienced though much younger Dudley Aebi ran the show in town and if photos, dusting or testing of SM’s kit were needed, he was the go to man…Take it or leave it Bozo, I couldn’t give a rats bottom either way y’hear.

  1625. John Sanders on March 25, 2022 at 7:31 pm said:

    …..think you’d look better posited alongside Stirling Moss fully kitted out with the weird racer’s flap collar and all. As for Nick’s absence of overly bold comments in rebuttal of late, I’ve noticed that in his editorial tip toeing as well. What I said of mice and men in a late deleted post was not meant to be a categorisation of the man in question, merely a personal gripe apropos being denied copy of late.

  1626. No Sanders, I don’t think I’ll leave as you see, although as you say Durham was on another turf the Glenelg station didn’t hesitate to call him in to do the complete series of photographs as submitted as evidence at the inquest, all of which deposits you on back the shaky ground that is forever your own. Not that I give a sh.t.

  1627. John Sanders on March 26, 2022 at 12:37 am said:

    Yet another really rivetting case overview of Sapol blunders from re-Pete and we can vouch for every single fucking word of it through having it stuffed down our throats often enough. Only question I would contend to be disputable and in any case irrelevant, concerns pants man Boxall’s quite reasonable claim to not recalling Jessica’s name; so I’d ask our Mr. nice guy Pete Bowes, in all honesty, would you have cause to remember some loose piece of crumpet you met at a pub after only two bites at the cherry?

  1628. John Sanders on March 26, 2022 at 1:51 am said:

    Glenelg had Jim do the death pics but as you picked up on, perhaos even the TS slip, reason being it was their case initially and he was part of the discovery team I’ve lready explained it clearly enough that even a drop kick might be grasp it all. Seems I was mistaken and that said drop kick was grasping somit else entirely.

  1629. Well, what can I say to that, Squire, except to remind you of the vision of Alf clutching the Jestyn Rubaiyat together with a document with the Crusader’s MV number, all eager to unload his memories into Littlemore’s shell pink.
    Not that I give a toss.

  1630. John Sanders on March 26, 2022 at 7:05 pm said:

    History of the ‘MV Crusader’ and your claims of it showing up in destinations way beyond it’s fuel range, have not been kind to you in the past old cock so tred carefully; And as for Paul Lawson’s entirely uncorroborated and fifty year delayed claim re a young female witness to his SM bust (denied in his 1978 interview) which you quote ad infinitum, experienced a touch of delayed morning sickness which is not exactly unknown, all my tarts complained of it.

  1631. You don’t say, and here’s me thinking that there might have been fuel depots up there in the north, established maintained and topped up regularly ……. keep them coming old sport, you’re good for target practice.

  1632. John Sanders on March 26, 2022 at 10:02 pm said:

    Not in Ambon there wasn’t, the place was virtually deserted when Boxall aent there to work up to work and besides Crusader was elswhere. I’m right on target my man and, as for your good self, you missed it completely as usual. Sorry about that cob.

  1633. Good old Alf, swam ashore then did he?

  1634. John Sanders on March 27, 2022 at 4:06 am said:

    Not even close Bozo, Alf was actually flown in from Brisbane on 24/6/47 according to his record of service which I strongly recomment to beginners. Perhaps he swam back to SME after the refit but that detail is somewhat vague on his posting orders. Read the file, it’s on NAA, when you’re free and get back to me if you dare.

  1635. Eggzackely Johnno, I had the pleasure of corresponding with Keith Role (spell) who served with Alf, and he assured me that the old lad was not only a porpoise in the water, but he unravelled an errant hawser from the Crusader’s screws whilst in harbour in the Sou’west Pacific. This of course can be read in the book published discreetly and read widely by the author of this comment, who, unlike your good self, has researched the subject to within an inch of its bloody life. Nevertheless we appreciate your amateur attempts to change history, benign as they are, and wish you all the very best in your doomed endeavours.

  1636. Tamara Bunke on March 27, 2022 at 2:40 pm said:

    Anyone know why Bozo’s website is offline? Getting an SSL error message when trying to access.

    Worse than GC’s, which comes with a security warning (ironic, if you recall he used to berate old Nick for the very same thing. This here site is the actually the only one that’s properly maintained).

  1637. John Sanders on March 27, 2022 at 6:52 pm said:

    Rolie Polie Keith is old hat and merely a diversion ploy, also old hat for a dick (sleuth) like you Pete. My amateur attempts to knock some sence into your noggin are certainly doomed but, aside from that I’m still OK with history of war in the Pacific. Of course your post has nought to do with Alf’s hauser handling in the Sth West theatre, so if you’d care to get back onto your original issue with milongal, now deleted from your comments, I’ll stand head to toe wuth you. I somehow doubt you’ll chose that course, saying that from sound previous experience.

  1638. Subpoenas? Anyone?

  1639. milongal on March 29, 2022 at 7:43 pm said:

    @PB – re the Durham – already read that link before, and it talks alot about him being a “fingerprint expert”, but doesn’t talk to him lifting latent prints (other than from corpse). To me, it still sounds more like he was an expert in getting prints off a body and then matched to a known set. It doesn’t seem to mention him lifting latent print (it has a vague expression about “pioneering many methods” – but given the rest of the description I think those methods are more likely getting the prints off a body. I don’t really see anything about “. ..well known ability to lift prints from almost any surface…” – which from memory was my original point.
    In any case, I had already read that before my previous, and I’m not convinced to change my mind.

    Regarding Subpoenas – I thought I posted yesterday, but perhaps I didn’t hit the button.
    From the coroner’s perspective what does Harkness and Boxall add to the inquest? You’d only subpoena someone if you think it’ll get somewhere. As for Lawson, his testimony is included in the files.
    On that, I notice a lot of people talk about 2 inquests (not saying you did FWIW). I don’t think that was the case. The 1949 one was adjourned, and then 1958 was a continuation (or conclusion). If you read the files as they are on DA’s site you’ll notice the testimonies are identical and there’s just a few little housekeeping additions (and some evidence pictures). Most noticeably, is the cover page that describes the inquest as being held on “17th and 21st June, 1949 and 14th day of March 1958” – which to me suggests the 14th was just a wrap up of a file that was sitting in his inbox too long….

    Short Version: Predictably, I’m still not with you on Durham, and I don’t think the Subpoenas (or lack of them) is all that interesting either

  1640. Milongal …. Cleland adjourned to wait for new evidence.

    Harkness’ reaction to the cast was new evidence
    The finding of the Rubaiyat was new evidence
    The identity of the finder of the Rubaiyat was new evidence
    The finding of the code was new evidence
    The finding of Harkness’ phone number was new evidence
    Harkness’ relationship to Boxall was new evidence

    If this doesn’t satisfy you then I’m in the wrong company.

  1641. John Sanders on March 30, 2022 at 4:13 am said:

    PB: Tom Cleland, in weighing up the viability of original tainted information didn’t consider Liz Thomson’s input to be of any Judicial value, despite her insistance that SM had been her former house tennant? Bob Walsh. I’m sure he did something similar with her near namsake Jessica Thomson’s assertions re Alf Boxall and thus coming to much the same conclusion ie., not worthy of pursuance based on his time tested professional assessment of her story’s unlikey evidentiary input… A better understanding of legal precidents and applications thereof would not be amiss in your case counsellor Bozo.

  1642. Johnno, Milongal … good lads you are but I have the same fond regard for you two as I do for a mixo-dosed rabbit bailed up in the spotlight … either way, the poor little bastard is destined for crow meat.

  1643. milongal on March 30, 2022 at 7:41 pm said:

    Didn’t say it wasn’t new evidence, but what help is a statement when that evidence appears to have led nowhere?
    I’m guessing they get excited when Harkness introduces Boxall, and then disappointed when they find him alive and well. At that point, they think that evidence has run its course. In hindsight many people speculate that Harkness and Boxall are more closely linked to SM – but I’m comfortable that they thought that evidence had reached a dead end. Why would you subpoena someone that (in their opinion) has turned out to be a dead end? Almost all of the speculation about how Harkness and Boxall fit into any story comes from LONG after the inquest was concluded (maybe as late as Littlemore’s doco). While the phone number *potentially* involves Harkness, her assertion “That might be Boxall” is sufficient for the investigators to decide that she isn’t of any help to the investigation – because anything she’ll offer will relate to Boxall – who is alive and well.
    You could equally make a case that anyone else who came in to identify the body should have been called at inquest. Bottom line is you only call for testimony from people you think might have relevant input.

    If I’m investigating a bank hold up, I don’t need all the possible suspects to appear in court – only the ones that are relevant to the story I’m trying to prosecute. I’m comfortable that *at the time* Harkness and Boxall simply weren’t interesting enough for the coroner to involve in the inquest – it was an angle that had proved fruitless.

    On one of them big boards like they have on TV crime shows they had crossed out Boxall as potentially SM, and as a result Harkness’ involvement had run its course.

    As for ending up as crow meat – we all end up integrated back into nature one way or another, so I’m happy to keep burrowing….

  1644. milongal on March 30, 2022 at 7:42 pm said:

    Should have read JS first – he said much the same thing in far fewer words.

  1645. Milongal …Here’s me saying the whole thing was an elaborate ruse and the one question nobody has asked is why then was Harkness implicated.
    Answer that can you? Johnno? Anybody?

  1646. John Sanders on March 31, 2022 at 7:48 am said:

    PB: don’t be asking us know nothings. John Ruffles, Gerry Feltus, Derrek Abbott and Gordon Cramer could help you with all facets of Jessica Harkness & her co-conspirators, after all they invented her….didn’t they?

  1647. Clive J. Turner on March 31, 2022 at 10:16 am said:

    Jessie ‘helped’ the police on condition that her identify was not made public. They, apparently agreed, then she lied to the police by stating she was married. Very shortly, after her interview with Canney, she was shown the bust, and she reacted by a near fainting episode. I would have thought, and it’s my thought only, that the police would have checked her background, marital status, nursing history etc. Apparently, nothing like that happened, so that only left her reaction to the bust, it would seem that only Paul Lawson had his suspicions, the police officers in attendance must have been tying their shoe laces. As they say, Jessie must have had the luck of the Devil, or friends in high places

  1648. Johnno … unlike you to be struck dumb, although others might appreciate it. Clive, the question stands, why implicate her at all when without her phone number she wouldn’t have been connected at all?
    Milongal, still waiting. Tamara .. speak to me .. I know you have it in you. Bumpkin, you inveterate lurker, suck it up. And Nick Pelling, old sausage, ou est vous ?
    Such a shy lot, but not so pretty.

  1649. Pb: now that the Somerton Man cold case has gone from FSSA back to SA Police, I’m hoping it’s just a matter of time before we get something factual to work with. Which would be a nice change.

  1650. John Sanders on March 31, 2022 at 6:47 pm said:

    Nick Pelling: FSSA will likely get SFA, that is if they ever get around to testing what’s left of Somerton Man, no more than a planted West End mortuary toe tag iin my estimation but, Best of Britidh old chap.

  1651. John Sanders: that’s your opinion, sure, but such pessimism seems to be swimming against the broader forensic tide. All I know for sure is that FSSA has handed over to SA Police, so it would seem they have concluded their phase of the analysis.

  1652. milongal on March 31, 2022 at 8:21 pm said:

    @PB – not sure what you’re waiting on (Incidentally, always give me at least 24 hours – I only read the comments here once a day tops, so between you posting and me reading there will be a lag), so I’ll say what I’ve said before but differently. Harkness was of interest because her number was on the code page. They spoke to her, she sent them to Boxall. They found Boxall alive. At that point, she was of no interest to them.

    Or are you saying it doesn’t make sense to even have the Harkness angle if all of this is a conspiracy? In that case, I agree – it’s one of the main reasons I don’t think there is a big cover up/conspiracy – because we need to be able to believe the same people who could suppress or control information flow are the same people that let out a whole bunch of stuff that only serves to keep the case in the spotlight.

  1653. John Sanders on March 31, 2022 at 8:34 pm said:

    Nick Pelling: nothing pessimistic in my realastic assessment; realism based on honest opinion generated by research of kniwn facts and refined case annalysis not fanciful scenarios. Admitted, fortune might factor in for a poor outcome as well, in that ‘master of disaster’ Det. Supt. Des Bray has been involved in many poor remains recovery outcomes in his long career, eg., ‘Castaloy X 2 Beaumont’ and more recently the well reported optimistic but, failed attempt in locating a known gangland murder victim within a confined bushland setting. “a useful method evaluation excercise all in all” from dauntless Des Bray.

  1654. Tamara Bunke on March 31, 2022 at 8:53 pm said:

    @pete … As I said above, I can’t speak to you because tbt is inaccessible due to an SSL protocol error. It’s replicated on multiple devices from here in Vallegrande. Are you getting any traffic at all? It’s a blackout here. No other sites affected.

  1655. Tamara, no problem with traffic, asamatteroffact it’s gone a little nuts. NickP, DNA or not, this mystery is like a jigsaw puzzle that can be put together a hundred ways,. Right now the only piece that’s missing in the latest iteration is the answer to the question just put forward. My interest has always been in what he was, not who, though I’m sure one will follow the other.

  1656. John Sanders on March 31, 2022 at 10:06 pm said:

    Just my usual fanciful ‘out of the box thinking’, as usual in that, had it not been for the nurse’s phone number being errantly inserted on the last page of a coverless nondescript book left open on an a forgetful case officer’s desk, by an unassuming weekend duty constable, the whole concept of her alleged role could have taken on another meaning altogether. Alternate possibility being that she, having called police with her claim as opposed to them contacting her first. A very credible ‘cart before the horse’ scenario by my reckonning but, of ccourse that would go against the grain of more logical intuitive thought wouldn’t it.

  1657. Peteb on April 1, 2022 at 9:38 am said:

    Don’t disagree with that, though wonder whether the other phone number found written on the back of the Rubaiyat may have had something to do with the outcome.

  1658. John Sanders on April 2, 2022 at 2:51 am said:

    Peteb: in reviewing old running sheets; the second number was said to have been traced to ‘State Savings Bank of S.A. at 23 Currie St. though they pulled out in ’42 leaving private tenants and A.G.’s plods plus renovators behind, until CSB bank re established there in 1949. I recall that that the main switchboard remained so if had that been t’other number, without additional extension line ID Sapol would have been stumped. NB: CIS had an internal board for their Federal operations.

  1659. John Sanders on April 2, 2022 at 8:13 pm said:

    Ahh Gordon, late as usual though not in your snide accusations of plagiarism as consequence of my having highlighted your typical lies and bluster as usual. To any punter interested at all in the dreary facts pertaining to Tomsbytwo’s new take on the ubiquetous second ROK phone number, you might request GC to reprint my true accounts re ‘Savings Bank of S.A. buiding tenancy of the 1940s. but without added micro crap input of curse…Good on you Gordon.

  1660. Peteb on April 2, 2022 at 10:08 pm said:

    Running sheets? I suppose they were kept in the same secure spot at Canney’s interview notes, and Leane’s account of meeting Freeman, and Brown’s notes on comparing the slip to the book, the cabinet Leane kept the Rubaiyat until he lost it. Seriously Johnno, all you’re doing is parroting DA’s line, and he’s the fellow who reckons TSM was wearing a buttoned up cardigan when found.

  1661. John Sanders … seriously mate, I believe it’s about time you acknowledged being a bit of a lurker in that for all this time you’ve believed in old GC’s micro-writing routines, and well done you, though you may find yourself in thin company.

  1662. John Sanders on April 4, 2022 at 7:04 am said:

    Peteb: Bit of humour courtesy of Gordon at ‘Troll-ops Central’ in reply to three benign posts of bygone times his errors relating to your current worthy thread.

    ” Oh dear me little Johhny Tenpence, you have quite a problem there, psychotic really. Your relationship with the truth is strange indeed. When I read through your comments you are rather like a little boy who pooped in his bed and then spread the excrement all over the sheets in the mistaken belief that he could then tell his Mum that someone else had done it. Sadly little Johnny, the evidence is all over your face, your hands an through your hair. Goodness me, you can almost smell it. I suggest that your stench will take a long time to dissipate if ever, but just soldier on Johnny tenpence, miracles do happen”.

  1663. John Sanders: you have hair? Lucky bugger.

  1664. Psychotic indeed. Ever thought of asking for assistance Johnno? … that’s some weird stuff from an over 70 year old.
    Little boys and poop … bit of a giveaway sport.

  1665. John Sanders on April 4, 2022 at 8:22 am said:

    Yair Nick, enough hair to weave an Indian blanket, plus five pound of testicie and a 44″ chest span to boot. The prick has the out & out gall to call me Little Johnny, just like Deni and her bimbo sidekick no less

  1666. John Sanders on April 4, 2022 at 8:38 am said:

    Peteb: call me a lurker, a shirker a jerker even a shirt lifter, all of which I’ll answer to but, never ever accuse me of being a letter Q micro crap believer. That’s your cross to bare my man and, you’re saddled with it..who could forget those immoral words ‘Gordon has scored’ and ‘Good on you Gordon’. So well done yourself.

  1667. John Sanders on April 4, 2022 at 10:15 am said:

    Peteb: looks like your on the money, Adelaide C’wealth AG’s C.I.S letter heads between April 1948 and May 1949 with Director’s sign off do not match Cramer’s December ’48 job, phone detail states ‘Central’ 7407 and address was at 100 King William St. not Curry St. from my old NAA file notes.

  1668. John Sanders on April 4, 2022 at 8:08 pm said:

    Note where GC placed his patent orange curve cornered rectangular box aound the telephone number C 7407, that the print is not aligned with other detail, nor with the squared edge of the page but, all in all if it were to have been a photo shopping excercise on his part, it must have related to another subject matter when originally posted as nothing in the context seems to be amiss.
    PS. The Commonwealth Bank Bld. was (is) at 97 King William Street.

  1669. milongal on April 4, 2022 at 9:36 pm said:

    I feel like addresses on King William St vs Currie St we’ve visited before sometime….

  1670. John Sanders on April 5, 2022 at 12:58 am said:

    milongal: yes indeed and on a number of occasions, most recent being my mention of a certain engineer named T. Keane perportedly an engineer who according to reliable records (S & Mc.) was domeciled at Commonwealth Bank Building in 1934 but not thereafter. Perhaps he was Peteb’s long lost nazi/commie infiltrator or Heaven forbid a deep cover G’man who got his marching orders in 1948 at Somerton.

  1671. Peteb on April 5, 2022 at 7:00 am said:

    John Sanders, you have me seriously mistaken as I believe the whole mystery is nothing more than evidence of a car stealing racket and the crook who sold the car left the book inside minus the slip in case the buyer didn’t settle, then of course he would be able to produce both and demand payment.
    Well, I think that’s how it went, perhaps the fellow who thought it all up might put me right though I don’t think so … nobody likes being ridiculed.

  1672. John Sanders on April 5, 2022 at 6:50 pm said:

    ….You mean Nick Pelling’s version of GTA or, the original no frills method of exchange submitted to the panel by Dude C7407; Sans input of Cramer’s soviet assassins or your nazi rocket scientists doing foreign order contracts for pocket money?

  1673. No, in the absence of any contribution of your own because, dare I say it, you appear to be incapable of constructive thought, preferring destructive, I’d suggest the only individual exempt from your withering diatribes is the host of this site. Well, not these days so much as I do recollect you were a little more courageous years ago and prior to being closed down everywhere else, leaving you now a smorgasbord of just one course of ordinary fare.

  1674. John sanders on April 7, 2022 at 12:58 am said:

    How dare your impertinance, and just I was about to send off a numbered flaggon of Inner Circle for your 78th next week. I may yet do it in spite of your casting aspertions on my undeniable ground breaking SM initiatives of late….C.O.D freight should be fair penalty for your damned hide Sir!

  1675. Inner Circle eh, what strength are you thinking of, Squire? The 98 proof burnt my lips off in ‘94.

  1676. John Sanders on April 10, 2022 at 4:35 am said:

    I’ve noticed that Mr. Cramer deliberately alternates the print shades for his ’42 (actually ’44) dual language Rubaiyyat editions from pink to grey and shades in between. In his latest three copy open cover spread, he suggests an unsatisfactory excuse about paper shortage which doesn’t wash. The changes have shown up in the same indididual copies ever since being put on to the to micro scam idea by an hallucinating Inner Santum colleague of yore. PS: was it GC who introduced us to other copies in his library, namely one with an agents stamp (Walsh not Wells) and also a 1932? copy with minor differences, or was that Derrek & his team?

  1677. John Sanders on April 25, 2022 at 3:22 am said:

    I note that our usually punctual TS/BS sage seems a little remiss with his Anzac Day fake Flanders poppies and solemn sentiments this year. Fella’s never late for a fair old Peteb payback concerning Strapps striped duds problem though….and by the way wasn’t it he revealed years later that the beach body was attired in a brown jacket and non matching trousers with a brown/grey herring bone pattern. That might solve the conundrum if we could find any such reference to it ‘I shd [sic] say’….Greenwood, Ballinte or one of our more discerning lady historeans perhaps.

  1678. Fuck off Sanders, sincerely.

  1679. Thanks [cheap generic bald insult], needed to be said.

  1680. Pb: it was the “sincerely” that did it for me. May not work next time round, though.

  1681. Love you [cheap generic bald insult], the secret’s out.

  1682. Pb: all this sincerity is making me gag

  1683. Mark Knowles on April 25, 2022 at 2:32 pm said:

    Well it is good to know that “Cipher Mysteries” is a hotbed of scholarly debate.

  1684. Mark Knowles: it’s an Aussie thing, I try to stay out of the way where I can. Just mopping the blood off the floor afterwards can be a full-time job.

  1685. John Sanders on April 25, 2022 at 8:23 pm said:

    Mark: yes, it’s like awakening to a new new dawn of conviviality in the embattled Somerton Man camp at long last. Put it down to sincere scholarly discourse. Well done to the former antagonists for their compromise. All due in essence to the convenient late unearthing of a perfectly preserved 1949? mortuary toe tag…I shd [sic] think.

  1686. milongal on April 26, 2022 at 12:09 am said:

    What APS equivalent is “assistant Analyst”? The Government is sometimes a little bit funny with their titles (and state ones might be more complex again) but have begun to refer to EL2 (Executive Level 2) as “Assistant Secretary” and SES1 (Senior Executive Service 1) as “Secretary” (before that it probably varied among agencies, but I remember “Manager” being EL1, “Director” or “Regional Manager” being EL2 and “National Manager” being SES1 (with SES2 and above being for specific roles like CEO, COO, CTO, CFO etc….). For me it was complicated by the fact I was within what was then still called Customs (or ACS) which had it’s own internal levels (EL1 was CL4 (Customs Level), and EL2 was CL5 , and in general a CL4 would be an airport manager (although Sydney at least was run by a CL5 (can’t recall if Melbourne was too)). Then all of that is complicated by the fact that APS ties all it’s levels to pay scale – and while that works well in a regimented operational service (Uniformed, Disciplined Force to use their later mantra), some of the non-Operational support roles (Finance, Legal, IT etc) would try to match levels to industry salaries (so for example many of us were EL’s even though we were non-operational grunts).
    [Side note: I think BOM used to address this by having a technical scale and an operational scale – so you might be APS4 at technical level E – the former would define your responsibility, and the latter your pay grade].
    From memory, my title (shared with others in my team) was the really meaningful Senior Technical Officer (even though I was very much in a business unit and not even remotely an officer) – and was probably one of about 5 or 10 people who might have been called to court as an SME in specific systems (we would regularly prepare statements to outline particular processing that had been logged, although the only time I was nearly called to court was an ACLEI matter).

    Obviously SA Public Service is never exactly APS – but I’m sort of interested at Assistant Analyst, is this a 2IC role for Cowan, or is he just an “expert grunt”?

    I also wonder whether the long stream of “didn’t find anything” is as much related to the case simply not being interesting enough for it to be afforded much time….”Hey Cowan, can you just have a quick look at this one and write up a report for the coroner….usual stuff, don’t let it take too much time away from the other stuff you’re on, it’s just an unclaimed stiff that we need to wrap up”.

    Long, oft-regurgitated rant follows (Easy reader version: I have a lot of difficulty with puppeteers and deep conspiracies)

    I guess my problem remains that when you want to take someone out subtly, you do it….well…subtly. But we have all these flashing lights and associated bells and alarms begging us to speculate – especially the TS slip (and associated Rubaiyat). I think GC has previously asserted the whole idea is to send someone a particular message (presumably “we got one of your guys, don’t mess with us”) – but you can do that without a whole load of the hoo-haa. We’re literally expected to see that someone was sufficiently in control to choose how Government employees and coppers came to conclusions, but couldn’t stop inadvertent information (most notably the TS related stuff) leaking to a public and fueling interest.

    If we want to talk about super spies (or Government agencies who think they’re super spies) then wouldn’t it make sense in considering how they want the situation to play out? Surely they would want John Doe found (possibly with the TS), but then they want it just to go away – and this leads to the conundrum I often flag….we get to a position where we simultaneously have some conductor orchestrating the most elaborate coverup, and a series of significant mistakes that make it appear as anything other than the “mundane death” that we’re trying to pass off.

    Suppose the TS slip is a signature. We want to make it clear to someone “make no mistake, this is one of ours”. How can we be so careless as to leave the Rubaiyat somewhere where it will almost certainly be found? Throw it in the gutter, throw it in the bin, hell, throw it in the sea….Does that mean the Rubaiyat was intended to be found? Does that mean the code is a signal? Or JH phone number? Surely blind Freddie can see the code will cause intrigue and the phone number might identify someone.

    So what if we look at it from a different angle – suppose the TS slip is an insurance that SM placed himself. So that if the inevitable happens, he can flag “I was one of them and they got me”. Perhaps then he’s happy for the Rubaiyat to be found – but what if he hadn’t passed? Is the Rubaiyat innocent enough that you can guarantee it won’t flag interest? Can we rely on the fact that worst case scenario it finds a forever home in a lost and found somewhere? But even in that case, why/how do we know that we need to have such an insurance/id at that time? Wouldn’t it make more sense to permanently have something like that? Further, wouldn’t we want things to be as obvious as possible? How can we be certain a slip in a fairly well hidden-pocket will be found? Why do we think the Rubaiyat has enough information to expose what we want (especially given if this were the case, we all seem to have missed it)? How do we even know that the TS will be recognised as a Rubaiyat ending, and trigger the attention that will uncover the booklet?

    To me, the conflicting idea of partial control littered with giveaways suggests this isn’t a coordinated thing by espionage experts, but rather any suspicious or weird stuff (like TS) appear by design – bt by people who have no control over the authorities that will be dealing with it. I can buy into some aspects of conspiracy theories, but I haven’t seen one that satisfies me simply because for each concrete “fact” there’s a “counter-fact” that questions it.

    Incidentally @PB adding to your post(s?) dismissing Fedosimov, I’d like to point out (as I’ve often mentioned) that we can trace Fedosimov’s postings in Britain and Libya (and from memory somewhere else) after he leaves the US (and well before the IAEA), and that if there was more than 1 Fedo, they all had the same wife’s name too…..The notion that Ferdosimov dropped off the radar shortly before SM appeared is incorrect – and has often been pointed out to those who continue to promulgate that story. (But I’m pretty sure I’m preaching to the choir).

  1687. What Rubaiyat are you referring to, Milongal, the Freeman one? If so, can you prove it existed, please. Many thanks.

  1688. milongal on April 26, 2022 at 8:22 pm said:

    @PB: No I can’t prove the Freeman Rubaiyat actually existed, any more than I can prove that the bus ticket was used on the 11:15 St Leonards service (or almost anything else in the case – every single element we’re trusting the reports we can access today (some official, and some merely from the media)).

    But wouldn’t it not existing go even further to making my point? I can’t think of any reason to introduce the Rubaiyat – especially if you’re hoping the public will just ignore this body because it’s boring. Introducing a Rubaiyat simply invigorates the story and keeps the public speculating about it (which I’d imagine is a bit problematic if you’re part of a conspiracy keen to hide some crime).

    That said, if the Freeman Rubaiyat didn’t exist, where did the MLIABO come from, and to what end? (call me naive, perhaps, but) I can’t really see how making up the existence of a Rubaiyat is gonna help anyone with some conspiracy (although I think I have previously speculated that it’s possible the Freeman Rubaiyat was a prank that took off)….

  1689. Thanks for that, Milongal, I suppose it all depends on whether you like a puzzle or not and if you do this Somerton Man case can be put together a dozen different ways .. at least. That’s the appeal for some. As far as the Rubaiyat is concerned, if you seriously doubt it’s existence then it follows that you must also doubt the author of the code, the authenticity of the code itself, the phone number(s) reported to be written in the back, Freeman’s account of finding it etc … the whole given structure disintegrates … all based on the one doubt, the unproven existence of the Rubaiyat, the piece that doesn’t fit. The cornerstone if you like.

  1690. Clive on April 27, 2022 at 3:10 am said:

    If the Rubaiyat was found in a car, was it intended to be have just been picked up by the driver/occupier, given a quick ‘once over’ and forgotten about? And, if this same copy of the Rubaiyat was found to have a code page, indentations only, again was it a ploy, And, then it’s claimed that a certain local Glenelg occupier had their contact telephone number on the code page, but this telephone number is nowhere to be seen. Accept, of course, if you believe in micro-writing. As for our Soviet friend, P.I. Fedosimov, born in 1910, apart from making him ‘too young’ for being a candidate for the SM, he was, as Milongal states, working for the embassy in Libya etc and later at Atomic talks in Vienna etc.

  1691. John Sanders on April 27, 2022 at 9:43 am said:

    Freeman family chemists were victims of safe breakers at Prospect in ’43 and it be known that Detective R. L. Leane was the attending police investigator named in the subsequent inquiry…Flash-Bang-Alakazam. What does that tell those who seemingly never tire of debating pros and cons of the code Rubaiyat’s existance or non existance ad infinitum? Nothing obviously, as my frequent mention of same has never once drawn comment. Based on this proven prior connective link-up between police and victim plus all suspicious and confaluted associated chicanery, only one reasonable conclusion can be made imo…take a good guess Clive and explain to Bozo and like fact finders if you’d be so kind.

  1692. The only reason it’s ad Infinitum Sanders is that nobody, including you, can come up with a believable explanation as to why the most important piece of evidence was never photographed or displayed.

  1693. John Sanders on April 27, 2022 at 10:51 pm said:

    PB: Think not about what’s in your hand most of the time but about other cintingencies that may have precluded Sapol’s possible no go on the ROK photographs, if that’s what you’re referring to. One reason could be that publicly displayed pics relating to a false flag operation could come back on them, or else perhaps Dud Aebi’s film order from Illford had been delayed, leaving the our Leane team in the lurch. How’s about those for starters?

  1694. I give up ….. see you on the other side Johnno.

  1695. John Sanders on April 28, 2022 at 11:27 pm said:

    GEORGE HAYYAM MARSHALL really? and who might that be you ask? No fret it’s merely Gordon Cramer’s sustitute reference to Joseph Saul Haim Marshall @ George Marshall the latest DANETTA thread subject. He likely got the man’s middle name confused with Omar Khayyam, not a big deal though it is becoming more prolific of late according to those that know him best.

  1696. John Sanders on April 29, 2022 at 9:12 pm said:

    Over the course of time since 1949 one single SM statistic has reduced with some regularity that being the distance from Jessica’s then residence at 94a Moseley Street, Sth. Glenelg to the Esplinade seawall opposite Bickford Tce., Somerton where the body was located. Some high profile opportunistic bloggers have thus seen fit to reduce that distance in stages, for effect to improve their very latest fanciful delusions. The distance has decreased noticeably from the original 700 yards according to Feltus? to Gordon Cramer’s very latest bold claim of ‘barely 100 metres’. Truth can be found by simply Googling requested distance between the two points if reference which turns out to be 1.3 kilometers via the shortest Tarlton Street route or (my estimate) 1.4 kms for the alternate beach route and roughly 900 metres as the crow flies. Is it possible that we might now set this as a factual statistic for future discussions on the subject?…not on your sweet nelly me thinks!!!

  1697. John Sanders on April 30, 2022 at 1:38 am said:

    NP: From between the lines analysis of certain suspicious post deletions that you may have been doing some in depth private research into the Ransom &c., Von Stieglitz, Comrie-Smith and Thomson/Thomson family history of late. If so I’d be pleased to share my own updated research results with you, either on the forum or elsewhere, this, all of course being relative to a potentially revealing DNA match up somewhere in amongst the mix. Just so’s Misca and I get our share of any due credits, if and when a positive ID is put forward by Sapol.

  1698. John Sanders on April 30, 2022 at 3:24 am said:

    ….slight miscalculation on proximity of 94a address on Moseley St. would take 300 metres off my stated 1.3 kilometer route, making the journey an even 1000 Mts., but, still well shy of GC’s deceitful self serving 100 metre punt.

  1699. John Sanders on May 1, 2022 at 5:02 am said:

    PB: by using pieces of your colourful (lingua franka) link/ thread examplars for reference, I’ve just broken your weekest link and thinnest thread. Nothing to do with Moss’s assumed search of a ‘hidden’ fob which failed to locate the TS slip or any fair game pound notes above it. No, the main contributing factors in the breakdown of your case handling ctitique is simply due to you having carelessly guilded the lily on two clear counts. Remove the offending porky pies soonest and there’ll be no need to give detractors cause for their usual gleeful ‘chuckle or smile’ as is their wont.

  1700. John Sanders on May 1, 2022 at 4:00 pm said:

    Byron: have a speedy recovery young fella me lad…and, well spotted.

  1701. milongal on May 1, 2022 at 9:30 pm said:

    @JS – Googlemaps has a “measure distance” feature when you right click. Using that I have Mosely, along Tarlton and up Bickford as 767m (or Ferris which is were “SM site” is marked as 677m) – as the crow flies that’s 575m and 505m respectively….

  1702. John Sanders on May 2, 2022 at 7:46 am said:

    milongal: whatever strikes your fancy sport but, don’t forget to add 150 metres give or take for the wrongly placed SM site near Ferris St., courtesy of Googlemaps. Either way Peteb’s current 200 metre punt and 100 metres by GordonCramer’s latest reckonning are both a trifle misleading wouldn’t you agree…and stuff the Crows, they’ll be hard pressed to stay in touch imho.

  1703. milongal on May 2, 2022 at 10:01 pm said:

    Yeap I took the 90 metres into account 🙂 – I had both measures in the previous.

    But yeap. 100m and 200m doesn’t even get you 1 dimension of distance.

  1704. John Sanders on May 4, 2022 at 5:19 am said:

    The Sly Dog is trying to explain the pertinant facts of discovery and first official assigned job responsibilies of first attender Constable Moss in that connection.
    We have been onto this very matter almost since Peteb began his association with the case as a self styled lounge detective with all of the characteristic off target ramifications that hamper us to this very day. Constable Moss was assigned in his capacity as first uniformed officer called to the death scene was to check for signs of life, make rudimentary attempts at identification, then to preserve the scene pending arrival of Detective Sergeant Strangeway’s team of professions. They were then tasked with the more more detailed investigations including various elements of discovery a crime which would have included posdible cause of death and more extensive examination of clothing belongs and the surrounding area for evidence. From that moment the case became their ‘puppy’ and the only remaining task for John Moss was to remove the body for transfer to hospital thence deliver it to the mortuary which he proceded to do and job well done imho. Unfortunately top dog Harry Strangeway was soon called away to more serious matters pending, as he then believed, handing over to his most reliable PC offsider Scan Sutherland who continued the investigation under direction of the Coroner and to some extant Det. R.L. Leane from early January ’49. Of course Peteb and his associates wouldn’t have a bar of any such deal and he for one remains resolute concerning alleged dereliction of duty by the much maligned constable who did all that was asked of him to the best of his ability and then some.

  1705. Matches, Dusty, how do we talk our way out of that, know what I mean?

  1706. John Sanders on May 4, 2022 at 8:49 am said:

    Horse shit Peteb; Moss would have considered such a task as being beyond his sworn duty to look a messy blob of manure or more (two nags) and neither would in his place. So guess where the matches were just as likely to have been?

  1707. Slip and slide, Johnno, maybe you should clean your own boots. Bye for now.

  1708. milongal on May 4, 2022 at 9:41 pm said:

    I think I’ve pointed this out before, but the systems we use between investigation and court can be somewhat corrupt. I don’t mean that people are deliberately perverting the course of justice, but the machinations are exploited to simplify the job for the prosecution. The more witnesses we need to call, the more risk there is that one of them might be shown unreliable,
    Admittedly many moons after SM I know of a specific warrant execution (not for SAPol, although they were also attending) that might illustrate where I’m going. I don’t know (or don’t want to say) how many people were involved but afterward agents from the lead agency ‘coached’ on statements to prepare. Not just in terms of how they should be written, but the overwhelming majority simply said something along the lines of ‘on X/Y/Z I attended the premises at *address*. About 8AM I entered and assisted in executing a search. I found nothing of interest’.
    Finds were ‘allocated’ to particular people who would write a statement (and potentially be summonsed to court) – in general this was the people from the investigative team, rather than extra bodies who had been brought along to help. The idea behind this was to reduce inconsistency in statements, and reduce the likelihood that a particular piece of evidence is dismissed as unreliable. I don’t know how well it works – and it grated me then (and grates me now) that the officials don’t necessarily follow processes that are designed to maintain the integrity of an investigation. Personally, I think it risks a major scandal that not only destroys your case, but seriously questions every case those people have been involved in…

    In any case, I wasn’t coming here to be sanctimonious but rather to make the point that a lot of the unreliability or inconsistency in evidence might ironically come from an attempt to be consistent. Once people start to manipulate statements, details get left out. Then if they realise they got some details wrong, they start to manipulate what they can to get their intended storyline back on track.

    While I think it’s certainly worth digging around any inconsistency, it’s worth remembering that there are many fairly innocuous reasons why these inconsistencies might occur. To me, conflicting reports, or changing (or impossible) testimony doesn’t scream “conspiracy” as loudly as it seems to for others. No matter how many processes an orgnaisation might introduce to stop these sort of mistakes, human laziness, incompetence and perceived intelligence (most people corrupting the system like this believe they are doing it to simplify rather than pervert the process) will invariably circumvent processes and create such mistakes.

    As a side note, it seems the transport industry is most consistently (or successfully) pedantic about following arbitrary processes. Pilots will repeat control tower instructions to prove they heard them, and even discussions between pilot and co-pilot will be a series of repetitions to affirm they heard and understood. Checks on aircraft, trains and trucks (and probably ships) are pedantically repeated at every turnaround. And yet even in there we see incidents that occur because that process wasn’t followed properly…

    ** NOTE: I’m not for a second suggesting that any of the above story is appropriate – and I’ve tried to be vague on detail because I don’t particularly want it to be too identifiable. My point is mainly to illustrate that internal processes (especially unofficial ones) can absolutely corrupt how the facts appear to come out. **

  1709. John Sanders on May 5, 2022 at 3:18 am said:

    The Sly Dog, due to his late arrival on the scene, may not have been made aware that a second fob pocket located on the right side of the Stamina trousers within the internal belt gusset lining that, according to Prof. Cleland, was hard to find, it consisting of a narrow slit opening of about two centimeters. In the 1930’s original design concept, an elastised belt had existed opposite an overlapping waist flap and invisible as such. That space would have ben perfect for concealment of the tiny rolled Tamam Shud slip, so that even a most detailed search might well have overlooked it…that all depends on whether Prof. Cleland’s testimony holds any weight at all. PS: most punters would be aware that due to war shortages, the elastised gusset belt was missing on duds made between 1941? and the end of hostilities in ’45.

  1710. milongal on May 6, 2022 at 1:30 am said:

    I thought the fob pocket was concealed and closer to his ol’ fella too…..

  1711. John Sanders on May 6, 2022 at 4:28 am said:

    Peteb’s back onto the digitalis as an all purpose remedy for most human maladies including Prosper Thomson’s chronic lung bleeds which could have potentially fatal consequences according to Grey’s Anatomy. Besides The Sly Dog ain’t likely to fall for such horse shit which since the year dot old Bozo’s been serving up to his pliant punters with no complaints.

  1712. Google it, genius.

  1713. John Sanders on May 6, 2022 at 7:41 pm said:

    Wilco..wait out…In the meantime, question of relativity; seeing that Roma is by law Katherine’s sister-in-law by virtue of one time marriage to Robin, woudn’t that tend make Miss Egan a niece to kate as opposed to your step sister crap?..Get your new puppy onto it, he’s not so dumb.

  1714. John Sanders on May 6, 2022 at 8:04 pm said:

    Peteb: A review of available evidence suggests that patients with pumonary disease may be more susceptable to the toxic effects of of cardiac glycosides than patients with normal lung function..Digitalis cor pulmonal – Hargreave FE. Br Med J. of 1965….Hopefully, athough I strongly doubt it, this will hold you over until I go through my notes for a more detailed analysis on the dangers of using ‘fox glove’ preparations for chronic heart patients with lung haemoptysis. Anyhow lucky for George his heart function was not a factor as far as Feltus and GC are concerned.

  1715. No banana for the monkey. . try harder

  1716. John Sanders on May 8, 2022 at 1:54 am said:

    Try this’n Bozo, so obvious even a rhesus monkey could have guessed it. Prospers haemoptysis diagnosis was obtained through Dr. Harley Burch MD, his local quack and best man at his wedding, besides his discharge papers had cleared him of any lingering pulmonary disease. No, it was most likely that our SM himself had a ligit chronic form, one attributed to heavy smoking as indicated in the Dwyer autopsy including heavily stained fingers, blackened lungs and internal haemoraging throughout his system, cranial capillaries included. Poor bugger likely drowned in his own blood from natural causes or by taking a glucoside or like herbal anti coagulant to set his mind at rest. Done and dusted champ, anything else on your mind ie., Frederick Henry Phipps OAM the most fancied Beaumont kids abductor f’rinstance?…

  1717. John sanders on May 8, 2022 at 5:54 am said:

    Just a couple or three items of passing interest for those still pursuing Harry Phipps @ Satin Man as their villain. First is that a Frederick Henry Phipps of Glenelg was a Queen’s birthday honoree for the coveted Order of Australia award in 1983, even though his dad had been a thief. Secondly we understand father-in-law William O. Walters was a thirty year detective in Sapol 1919 through 1949 when he died, much of which was probably served in the Glenelg AOR. By the way anyone still checking the midirected Marden and Malvern suburbs for narrow lanes, Milton Street breezeway to the bus stop on Moseley St. is what you should be looking at with respect. js

  1718. Wrong again old parrot .. keep trying.

  1719. John Sanders on May 8, 2022 at 10:41 pm said:

    Can’t win a trick on CM of late and I’m thinking that it would need a man with a gun, as opposed to a monkey on a stick to sway the odds against ignorance.

  1720. I’ve got a neighbour who has a little white Poodle called Fluffy, and every time it sees me it goes yap yap yap bloody yap. Just like you do old sport. One day I’ll tread on it.

  1721. Pb: until that day, Fluffy will keep pissing on your lawn.

  1722. Yeah, but the little fella keeps jumping over your fence to do it, and you ain’t no Alsatian, are you?

  1723. Pb: to be fair, I think the pair of you both piss on my lawn just as you wish. Asking me to put a fence up just on the other guy’s side isn’t the strongest of arguments.

  1724. John Sanders on May 9, 2022 at 7:17 pm said:

    Me mate Glasses, is rough as guts and now lives in Cambodia but, originlally from Snoswellia SA. Had him a pomeranian called fluffy that he took on his bike travels all across SE Asia and the Sub Continent for years. Broke him up when the poor thing up and died about a year or so back of old age. Now he’s got one of those new fangled Kiwi dark tan mini Poodle jobs with all the proper frog trimmings which seems to have filled the void nicely; y’can have a fair shot at what he named it. No Peteb, it’s not Nick and, no Nick Pelling not Bozo either.

  1725. John Sanders on May 21, 2022 at 8:57 pm said:

    Peteb: ‘Scott Morrison done like a dinner…Anthony Albanese romps home’ is what you meant to say, right?….now that’s all done and dusted and all fair dinkum aussies no longer need to be embarrassment for having pansy names like Scotty and Josh to contend with, we can get back to more topical agendi likes of Ben Chiffley, the red leaning ex engine driver and ‘pig iron’ Robert G. Menzies (Ming), his Nip loving partner in crimes against national security.

  1726. I feel their pain, and poor old Tim Wilson, ex hard man reduced to tears after losing his Liberal seat, he had to be comforted by his husband.

    ………. It’s me, isn’t it?

  1727. John Sanders on May 22, 2022 at 10:08 am said:

    Poor Tim, in for a good old bunting tonight I suspect. They don’t call hubby Ryan ‘Billy’ for nothing.

    ……….Yes, it’s you but, never stop plugging or you’ll end up like Kyal over at TSM.

  1728. John Sanders on May 23, 2022 at 3:36 am said:

    PB: in re your latest Ina Harvey sketch you topped it off with a nice pun based on Ian Harvey (TV reporter)..I’ve gone one better which will at least impress your TSM punters. Every sports fan knows that Neil Harvey legendary cricketer commenced his test debut in1948, year of the rat but, that’s not the clanger folks. this Harvey was known to his loyal followers simply by his nickname ‘Ninna’…so top that young Harry!

  1729. milongal on June 15, 2022 at 10:33 pm said:

    PB @ TB2’s latest is somewhat interesting. I think I’ve ranted along similar lines before, but in particular his speculation (in the comments) that there’s a 3rd person involved.
    While it is a bit odd to dispose of a book in this manner (especially if you know the Harkness number is in it) I don’t necessarily entirely follow the entire logic. Some other options might be:
    – The book was discarded in a hurry by someone who thought they were being tailed (I think GC is (or was) big on this idea)
    – SM has passed on the book to someone (who is meant to pass it on again to the person he is to meet) but they don’t know of the code page (and number) in the back
    – The person dumping the book IS the intended target, but as it wasn’t their book (it was given them by a mutual connection) so they have know idea about any significance to scribblings in the back.
    – (Perhaps obviously but I’m guessing this will stir some hornets) Harkness has nothing directly to do with the case (e.g. the original book owner (possibly SM) was in contact with Harkness (or Prosper) and happened to jot their number in the book, but the number itself isn’t related to the actual purpose of the book, so they think little of the fact the number is in there).
    – What if the booklet (code and all) was intended to be dumped in someone’s car but was put in the wrong one? (let’s say SM has kept the slip and passed on the book to a trusted acquaintance to put into a car on Jetty Road so that the owner of said car can verify SM as an intended contact. The book ends up in the wrong car so the contact never gets the proof he needs, so the meet goes sour and SM ends up on the beach**

    It might also be worth noting that PB and others have often pointed out that although we have a picture of the code we don’t seem to have a picture of the phone number. So is it possible that the phone number was transfer scratchings (e.g. they’d noted the number on something else while leaning on the booklet) – in which case the owner doesn’t necessarily realise the number has been left there.

    ** The last of the options above might bear some thinking about. We have normally looked at the booklet as having been “dumped” in the car because the car owner came forward and couldn’t explain it – but what if it WAS meant to go in a car, it just ended up in the WRONG car? “You’ll find a blue car on jetty road with the back window open….chuck it in that…”

    But with all of that being said, I still think there’s a bit of a question mark about whether the slip originally came from that booklet anyway.

  1730. Hello Nick, I found something that i think you will find very cool. There is going to be an auction of old and new cryptology machines including various countries version of the Enigma. Kind of pricey, but there are many kinds. I just thought you would find this interesting. Its from Bonhams. sharon lindimore 8:52 PM

    https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27388/instruments-of-science-and-technology/

    👏

    👍 I did not do this on purpose.

    👎

    😊

    😞

    👏

    👍

    👎

    😊

    😞

    👏

    👍 I did not do this on purpose.

    👎

    😊

    😞

  1731. John Sanders on April 23, 2023 at 12:33 pm said:

    Shit’s hit the fan in Khartoum Sudan, and as for Uncle Sam, the Yanks are running, the Yanks are running, and they won’t be back til it’s over over there. True to form!

  1732. Levitating on May 25, 2023 at 11:34 pm said:

    Hey, awesome website.

    Sadly you’re subscription box returns a 400, so I can’t subscribe for notifications.

  1733. Levitating: alas, you are correct, Feedburner (that I use to handle site update notifications) has finally entered its terminal phase. I’m looking for replacements now…
    https://ciphermysteries.com/2023/05/26/r-i-p-feedburner-just-about

  1734. John Sanders on September 14, 2023 at 4:27 am said:

    Peteb: although not posted as such, I guess your latest offering be CH 9 and that the young lady being tagged to her clandestine liasons a certain Jewess since deceased. I can guess that your character ‘The man sitting in the corner of the bar, watching’ could only be big Bob Wake of CIS, and side kick Val, the stalker. As for the fella that she was meeting here & there and who followed her to Melbourne then Adelaide after she got potted, I’m somewhat at a loss. Can’t wait for CH 10.

  1735. It will be an untidy passage, JohnS, dangerous yet fulfilling. Or that’s the plan.

  1736. David Morgan on September 18, 2023 at 8:53 am said:

    I have been trying to locate a car a 1973 DATSUN 240K coupe reg RXX-820 linked to a Port Lincoln address with phone 82 2135. Any ideas how I can track the car and the address from the phone and reg?

    I suspect the address is somewhere near Flaxman Street, Port Lincoln.

    I saw another Datsun 240K coupe in Port Lincoln which was RXY…

  1737. John Sanders on September 18, 2023 at 10:00 pm said:

    David Morgan: have you tried @citymotorsnissan (Port Lincoln). If it’s still around town and being driven, a desireable 240K Datsun (Nissan) should be pretty well known, especially in an isolated SA port town like PL.

  1738. David Morgan on September 19, 2023 at 3:24 pm said:

    Prof Abbott has decided (again) to make me a criminal on his SM Facebook account by restricting me to 1 post per day and probably no pictures.

  1739. David Morgan on September 19, 2023 at 7:01 pm said:

    :JS,

    Thanks for the idea. In fact it was historic. I wanted a way to search a car registration database for the owners. It was interesting when I posed the same type of question in Norway 2018 they were able to locate every owner of a vehicle. The same with telephones I wanted to track it to an address – in Port Lincoln, I searched numbers either side and it pointed to Flaxman st. But it could go around the corner to another street.

    Curiously, coincidentally I found that the Adelaide family murderer Stuart Pearce had a 240k Datsun. As they lived near the Parafield airfield i wondered whether he was an aircraft buff. It might be a clue to where he presently hangs out for the $1m reward. It was an amazing story that the lodger killed himself and the brother of his wife murdered their parents. His living son became a criminal.

  1740. John Sanders on September 20, 2023 at 12:38 am said:

    DM: can’t help much with the Datsun 240K’s whereabouts or that of Stuart Pearce for that matter. In the first instance your phone number seems likely to be a 1300 job followed by six digits; and all I could dig up at short notice on your “murderer” is that he arrived in Australia with parents Dick & Liz as an infant aboard the SS Strathaird out of London July ’58 and that the family gave an address of 11 Shinkel St. Mount Gambier at Fremantle.

  1741. John Sanders on September 20, 2023 at 3:39 am said:

    Clive: need to know what happened to Derek’s knitted cardigan/pullover?. Dunno but, you might ask the Leyland brothers; sure to get an honest answer from them. On your initial query regarding an apparent blood soaked morgue trolly, I have frequently alluded to y’man Bill Cohen who was booked in to West End’s mortuary just prior to our SM so you might like to keep that in mind.

  1742. John S … ‘wooden’ mortuary trolleys? Real or unreal?

  1743. John sanders on September 20, 2023 at 8:21 am said:

    David Morgan: I checked out Stuart Pearce’s murdered in-laws who are interred alongside his poor wife (Wayne’s sister) and kids at Mt. Gambier lawn cemetery. Bit strange about the border what necked himself and also that Allen Maynard sports an AIF returned badge on his shared grave plate yet there’s no record of his war service at NAA. So you reckon there’s something suss about the two like numbered cars at Port Lincoln and maybe you’re onto something that the cops missed. Well I’ll leave it to you to check out but, give us a hoy if I can help out.

  1744. David Morgan on September 20, 2023 at 11:19 am said:

    @JS,

    The NAA records say ‘not yet examined’. Where are you getting your info?

    I had contact with a young bloke (sounds like a child) who can search across electoral registers in Australia. Likely LDS.

    Who gives out these superpowers?

  1745. David Morgan on September 20, 2023 at 11:26 am said:

    @Js by putting 1300 in front it becomes
    Airport Dr Melbourne Victoria 3045 Australia.

    Which doesn’t fit with an advert in Port Lincoln though bizarrely with the criminal if he likes planes.

  1746. Hi John, Seems the pullover was just another item that was never photographed and shown to the public. We’re the police being selective or what?

  1747. David Morgan on September 20, 2023 at 7:14 pm said:

    @JS

    It was the boy racer car, knitting machine and telescope with wooden tripod from the same number in Port Lincoln made me think of another 1990s home invasion kidnapper.

    When the police jumped on video recorder they may have missed out on telescope. None of the children mentioned him running to change tapes and they weren’t entirely silent when you opened the side to switch them out. Usually some cluncky tune.

    My other bigger line of research was an LDS train driver with his dad a former JP in Lower Plenty with a grandad in Yinnar who had previously raped a child but was found innocent in a higher court.

  1748. John Sanders on September 20, 2023 at 10:18 pm said:

    Peteb: dunno about trolleys but, it’s mentioned in SA morturies travel guide that the old West Terrace facility had three slate post mortem slabs with grooves along the edges and both ends to facilitate discharge of unsightly blood & offal. As for reception and short stay customers in Somerton Man’s time, I’m thinking sturdy timber frame gurneys were quite satisfactory and no complaints entertained.

  1749. Thanks John Sanders, appreciated

  1750. John Sanders on September 21, 2023 at 9:22 am said:

    ….re Prof. Clelands hand written notes from 1970? (my discovery), his mystery sign off comment “Jerdoze E. Fltriam” with “word for posts” beneath hasn’t raised much interest since GC & Co. claimed it and kindly put it up on his TS/BS for our viewing. Seems it could be of Latin origin though I can’t find a translation unless it refers to a form of gold thread embroidery or else it’s some sort of clandestine message.

  1751. David Morgan on September 21, 2023 at 1:12 pm said:

    @JS, – wooden tripod

    In 1993 the vicar Geoff Diment Port Lincoln was selling a telescope – a tasco911tr which had a wooden tripod. I saw some old 1993 Google group discussing it. I can’t imagine he would have a boy racer car as a vicar. But his wife Liz seemed to be running craft courses – so she may have had a knitting machine. Her name for her craft course Linc’n’Learn was quite clever for Lincoln. But she may have taught men to knit.

    It may be Rev. Diment was given the telescope by a resident in 1992 and then sold it 1993 using the church phone number.

    But although the newspapers seem to have stopped he is still there in PC. Perhaps I should ask him about the telescope and the car.

  1752. David Morgan on September 21, 2023 at 2:47 pm said:

    @JS,

    It sounds almost like an insult – Yer Dozy ? word for posts – Staves or Pillars.

    Sounds like he’s saying Yer dozy effin pillock.

  1753. Sounds almost like a Groucho alias, although not sure how to pronounce Fltririam.

    I can imagine a sarcastic “Yer dozy effin….” as Dave suggests

  1754. John Sanders:

    Hope all is going well for you and all.

    Sorry I can’t add more given past trials and not to waste more of your and others’ time (and mine), but just to respond to this among your often perceptive catchings of something that end up being important for you or others (I won’t cross my fingers), and to prevent letting more decades pass by wondering what Jerdoze, and perhaps even what I read as E. Eltucan (or, E. El tucan) means, here is my two cents.

    Prof. Clelands is referring to a label he has seen on the suitcase. He is asking, “Does the suitcase label?” (… “mean anything?”). And after giving a sense of what he has read on the suitcase, he is saying it may be “useful” (or “word” as you read) “for poster” (i.e. to publicize in newspaper ads, to see if anyone can tell what this means).

    Jerdoze, is a transliteration of جيردوز (or Jir Dooz). It is Persian, but given its rendering, I think it is expressed with a Turkish pronunciation, so the company making the suitcase must be Turkish, more likely Azeri, or even still perhaps Persian of Iranian Azeri or Azeri of the then Soviet Union source (at the time the now independent Azerbaijan was still a part of the Soviet Union); technically a Russian firm in the caucuses could use the term as a name, but the words are Persian.

    Both words are what Persians use even today most commonly. Jer or Jir or جير is a term used for suede leather specifically, but it can be used for any quality leather, as the word is actually borrowed from French (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuir), which simply means leather. Persian has internalized many terms from French as a sign of class and status (implying foreign made, so to speak) and “jir” is one of them. So, using the word jer (in Turkish pronunciation of it as a Persian word, not Turkish, since in Turkish Suede is Süet, though some Turks may be quite familiar with using the term Jir or Jer as well, since it is actually a French word used for leather implying high quality leather) or jir (in Persian pronunciation of it), gives a sense of high class leather work, and using it in a company name or on a suitcase as a brand makes it sound more classy.

    Doze or Dooz or دوز means sewing, or sewn in Persian, and can be used in Azeri and Turkish as well, but if so, used as a Persian bran word, since it is a Persian word. It has the same root as does the word دوزنده (doozandeh) meaning tailor, or one who sews.

    So, to make this short, Jerdoze means “leather sewn.” In Azeri Turkish (which is my mother tongue as well, may parents having been Azeris both), El Tucan, or El Tican, means “hand sewn.” El is hand in Turkish, and I grew up learning that ticmak, means to sew. So, Eltican can mean “hand sewn” (if that is the word Cleland read, but it is not entirely clear from his handwriting, I must add). Given the E. at the beginning, it may well be the trade name of the person owning the company or the tailor making the suitcase (i.e., one who hand sews). But, the expression goes to convey the quality nature of the hand sewen leather work on the suitcase (of course as exaggerated by its maker, as is done in trade). If El tucan is what I am reading it to be, then clearly this suitcase was made by an Azeri or Persian or Turkish sourced company using a Persian expression in Azeri or Turkish pronunciation as its brand name.

    Of course, now the most interesting question for those curious (or not) to answer is how a suitcase with that label (be it a suitcase manufacturing company name, or just a label to refer to the quality or brand of the suitcase) has ended up in Australia and in Adelaide used by the Somerton man. If it was a common label of suitcases at the time, imported to Australia in bulk, of course that would be some explanation of it. But Cleland and others seem to have not even known what it says or means, or seen a label as such in their market. So, given the post war situation, the shortages, etc., the high volume import of the suitcase from such an overseas source must not have been likely. Another possibility is that of its being used by someone, a migrant, entering Australia from a Middle Eastern, the Caucasus, or Russian region, broadly considered. But then, the suitcase seems to have been new and hardly used, like the shining shoes of TSM. And TSM having bought it used would not be too plausible, since it does not seem to have been used at the time.

    I think you have noticed something important that has slipped by for decades. It is one of those things that turns a lot of things and assumptions upside down.

    Sorry, that is all I can say, and apologies in advance for not responding further. I hope this is helpful, if not, just ignore it as usual. It was for me interesting, and even I was surprised by what you caught.

    Best wishes,

    Behrooz

  1755. John Sanders on September 22, 2023 at 2:31 am said:

    David Morgan: found your irreverend reverend living with Elizabeth and family in the lower Adelaide Hills. He’s back to preaching folloeing his indiscretions and far enough away to be remembered it would seem. I have all Geoff’s contact details including phone numbers and email etc., if’n you don’t have them already.

  1756. John sanders on September 22, 2023 at 9:12 am said:

    Behrooz:

    Really good to hear from you, I’d been watching for any update on your SM thoughts as late as yesterday. What you’ve been able to provide regarding the suitcase and likely origins is clearly what Cleland was on about with ‘Jerdoze’ etc., and the ‘missing’ manufacturers label in Persian which had been brought to our attention by Det Brown in his ’78 ‘Inside Story’ interview (Utube). In fact we had discussed the subject at some length in earlier threads eg., ‘Crossing the Tasman’ thath dealt with Polish refugees from ‘Persia’ being evacuated to NZ early in WW2. Mention was made of the new arrival’s suitcases which were obviously of a foreign make due to latch design and absence of the Australian ‘Cheney’ marking suggesting SM may well have been amongst their number. All very interesting and many thanks for swinging by with some relevant input at long last. “Indeed, indeed” (Q70).

  1757. David Morgan on September 22, 2023 at 10:45 am said:

    @JS,

    I didn’t know he did anything wrong other than sell a telescope with a wooden tripod. Probably a Haleys comet purchase. Though I noticed in 1996 he had some dispute with the church about homosexuality in the church (I think). Which side he was on in the dispute I don’t know. I was hoping he would know ‘the other guy’ with the car, knitting machine and telescope with a wooden tripod. Though it would make sense if his wife was teaching craft such as knitting and sewing and wanted to involve men. Perhaps he was the first male student.

    I noticed his wife visited Melbourne with some school type trip as the responsible adult no doubt. But I couldn’t find a record for him in 1990.

    I have emailed him asking about the car (c/f Stuart Pearce) is the line of argument…

  1758. @ Behrooz,

    Welcome back!

    Another use of Jerdoze;

    Bandhej Salwar kameez: Bandhej Salwar kameez are the most popular designs of Jodhpur in India which have now gained popularity in UK also. Bandhej Salwar kameez UK are made up of rich silk, cotton, or chiffon fabric having beautiful jerdoze embroidery over it.

    https://andaazfashionsuk.wordpress.com/tag/anarkali-dress/

  1759. Would you say this suitcase looks like an aged version (and different colour) of the one found at Adelaide Railway Station)?

    https://i.imgur.com/YqS183v.png

  1760. His suitcase reminds me of these ones recovered from asylums in New York and the evacuee suitcases of WW2’s children (minus the teddy bears).

    https://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2013/03/04/141934159/asylum-suitcases-found-and-photographed

    https://vintage.co.uk/2013/08/evacuee-suitcases-why-we-love-them/

  1761. John Sanders on September 22, 2023 at 9:31 pm said:

    David Morgan: thought you knew that in 2004 your good reverend then aged 50 pleaded guilty to six counts of indecency behaviour at Beaumont Uniting Church.

  1762. I realize I am breaking my promise so soon by sending this, but, to avoid misunderstandings of not responding, I am sending this. Nick’s site is addicting and hypnotic, not just as figures of speech, but really. It is where genuine and real research action is happening in TSM case anywhere. But, once one opens its “suitcase” it is hard to close it, and before you blink, decades have gone by, and all other projects and life gone on the back burner. Not sure how he does it, taking the burden of everyone at once. Moderating things is hard and not enviable, so kudos to him for keeping things going here more moderately.

    Hi Pat, thanks, nice to hear from you as always. As usual, you found (in your first suitcase link) exactly a match, even more a match, as far as its suede version goes. Latches are exactly the same. If you locate the site and manufacturer, you can perhaps discover where or which company it originated from and let all know. The others you sent were not the same, so perhaps focusing on the matching ones is better. Your link was to image and not to site, so you may want to let others know where you find it. It is a very good find. Pat, everyone appreciates all your energy and research. John Sanders, especially, does, I can tell, and he does it even in Portoguese, just that’s how he shows it because he likes you to do some research on his topics too, since he knows you are so good at it. But you have good reasons to follow what you think is important; they are. He has raised insightful questions also. Sorry to everyone if I have not been able to catch up with questions you have asked in the past, hopefully someday I will.

    John, nice to hear from you too. I found the background discussions, and your apt notes about suitcase latches on another thread (it was on “The Very Social Somerton Man’s Suitcase” but the polish refugees from Iran to NZ issue you referred me is an eye opener and very promising also as a possible lead; I had no idea that could be a path to pursue). I see so many different suitcases online, that it is odd more has not been done trying to find the exact style (perhaps it has been and I am not aware of it), as you have pointed out. It is worth looking into the types (if not done already) and I think Pat has already found a very good match, if only it could be further traced. Thanks for checking my site, a rarity from this site, so I will reward you one day with a very interesting update, but not yet. When I left last I got a chance to attend to fallen-behind projects and still I have to attend to more (finished a volume and many more to go). I have been following things related to TSM also, but still they are cooking so no need to take everyone’s time on them yet. Your finding yesterday changed things again in the stew recipe, so it is prudent to be patient with these things. It was one of those 0.01% things that can overturn or at least question entire 99.99% assumptions.

    While I am here, hi to Jo (you won’t realize how important that x is until you care to see my solution to the code, but nothing of the sort has been of interest, so that’s fine and I wish you well), David Morgan, Poppins, milongal, and others. David, the file you were looking for Comber’s will was already online in the link you had copied. Now that I am sending this, I may as well send a few other things I found where David had linked the Comber will. Most likely you all already have them (I know Poppins had found the one on T. Keane’s accident/passing file, being so resourceful as always). They can be accessed here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NbKOVA740_7zy-sryX68bd_Y6cKetIPE?usp=sharing

    Ok, time to close the suitcase, otherwise absolutely nothing gets done on my end. This time I am really, really promising!

    Best wishes

  1763. David Morgan on September 23, 2023 at 4:47 am said:

    The guy who sends in witty articles in 1927 to a newspaper with the name Tamum Shud with a mixture of pretentious algebra and poetry sounds like a young Carl Webb in 1927 who was rejected by some young girl he admired when he popped the question because she didn’t like his “tousled topknot”. Though possibly it was an American under the heading “Sandplain Nights”

    “The childish hope we set our hearts upon
    When courting one whom we might love anon”

    Sounds like someone who is reading the ROK a lot.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251662091?searchTerm=%22tamam%20shud%22

  1764. David Morgan on September 23, 2023 at 10:31 am said:

    @JS,

    If they ever pay me a reward I owe you.

  1765. David Morgan on September 23, 2023 at 10:34 am said:

    @JS,

    On to Stuart Pearce next…perhaps there is a link.

  1766. @Behrooz

    Thanks for your input, always appreciated.

    The photo of the suitcase is from an expired ad on Gumtree Australis. And it says brown leather suitcase, not suede, by the way.

    I have contacted Gumtree and they said they can’t disclose any information regarding the original ad unless it is for legal purposes.

    The only information I could gather from the original ad is that the seller was from Victor Harbor, South Australia.

    Thanks for the links!

  1767. @ Behrooz

    The link to the ad

    https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/victor-harbor/antiques/vintage-brown-suitcase-/1314327668

    There is other vintage suitcase advertised by the same person (judged by the same mat underneath the suitcase), but it’s unfortunately expired as well.

  1768. @ Behrooz (Sorry Nick!)

    Yep, you’re right! This one is probably suede, I have looked at so many suitcases, I thought I was referring to the other one advertised by the same seller, which was leather.

  1769. @ Behrooz,

    The second suitcase looks similar. I have contacted the seller.

    https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/stepney/antiques/4-x-vintage-suitcases-pickup-stepney/1316914349

  1770. Last one, Nick.

    If it weren’t for the metal rivets, this one looks very similar, and probably for left-handers!

    https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/tamaree/collectables/large-vintage-suitcase/1286751378

  1771. Oops, last one I promise, Made of Fiber but latches are the same and handle are the same.

    https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/thornleigh/antiques/classic-1950-s-australian-made-star-brand-travel-good-fibre-suitcase/1264754329

    Brand: Travel Goods Pty Ltd. – Victoria

  1772. The seller of of the leather suitcase has replied. No brand/manufacturer but this attached writing:

    ‘Presented to
    Mr. & Mrs. A. E. Smith
    from friends of Saltlake Church
    February 1947’

    It’s in Adelaide, right? Exciting!

    https://i.imgur.com/D2dpyBd.jpg

  1773. This one looks exactly the same.

    https://web.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1667667170378159/?ref=category_feed&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post

    I’m not of FB any more. Anyone interested in sending a message to the seller?

  1774. Correction, the manufacturer of the fibre one is ‘Star Brand Travel Goods’, NSW, Australia.

  1775. John Sanders on September 24, 2023 at 1:33 am said:

    This is for Pat or any keen punters wanting to aquire a Globite or, near enough look-alike Keane suitcase, back in the SM dark ages when such was all the rage, good pickings could to be had at ‘ye olde antique shoppe(s) in the Adelaide Hills hubs of Stirling, Hanhdorf or Mount Barker eg.,’Head over Heels’ pre loved barn at Mount Barker. Only problem was that none could be found with tell tale? luggage label intact, as indicated in Clelands notes (diagram) and alluded to by Det. Feltus in his book and Supt. Brown in his ’78 Inside Story interview. An important recent disclosure supports my own earlier stated opinion that when J. B. Cleland became involved in March 1949, the ‘JERDOZ’ label must stil have been in place; and yet it was never mentioned by police or the press during the initial investigations.

  1776. John Sanders on September 24, 2023 at 7:13 am said:

    No One: might I reminded that not all caterpillers turn into beautiful butterflies.
    There are them’s that metamorphise into death’s head moths. I’m sure AI is well aquainted with such quirks and has the ready capacity to arrange trade offs with mother nature or old Ned accordingly.

  1777. John Sanders on September 26, 2023 at 1:04 am said:

    PeteDavo: tried to have GC set you straight on a number of honest errors re your version of the Brown sisters Phyllis & Mair’s service history, e.g., “Signit” postings as code breakers and treatment at RNSH during Jessica Harkness’ tenure there. In your latest BS/TS post you incorrectly maintain that Mair had been admitted to 108 Gen Hosp and 115 HMH whilst in Sydney NSW. I’m informed that both nominated hospitals happened to have been in distant Victoria, namely Bonegilla (Wodonga) and Heidelberg. Gordon has been very busy of late but, you may see fit to have him make any necessary alterations to your related erroneous posts when time permits. Cheers JS

  1778. John Sanders on September 26, 2023 at 5:05 am said:

    A real treat in store for any Gordon Cramer followers real or imagined. In his very latest serving on lady spies of WW2 and the cold war era Gordon offers two 1950 linked newspaper articles from a alter ego correspondent outlining an extended adventure cruise aboard ‘Northern Star, a converted RAN Fairmile motor launch. The apparently Trove accessed newspaper articles give details supplied by author Helen Fry, of those onboard including some from government agencies plus VIPs the likes of Sir Thomas Blamey. The only problem with the otherwise riveting yarn is it’s involvement with espionage is not made clear and GC’s helpful online web source details are no help at all due to their non existence as expected. The story is further complicated in knowing that Sir Thomas Blamey at the particilar time, May through July 1950 was himself indisposed due to poor health, having himself been admitted to Mercy Hospital in mid June, then later Heildelberg where he remained until his death in 1951 following a prolonged period of palliative care…good old GC man should be knighted for his services to the blind and gullable.

  1779. John Sanders on September 26, 2023 at 5:22 am said:

    …Gullible or not, we gotta give credit to Christopher Gordon Cramer for audacity.

  1780. I lived on a converted RAN Fairmile in Gibraltar for a while in the 60’s .. vey handy those boats were for running cheap smokes over to Italy and bags of kief from Ceuta.

  1781. D.N. O'Donovan on September 26, 2023 at 9:12 am said:

    Nick
    I sent you an email about a week ago. My VPN sometimes triggers alarms, so it may have gone to the bin. Will re-send if necessary, but it was not-particularly urgent or important question.

  1782. @ Johnno – I’d give him far more credit if he’d acknowledged Phyllis Latour Doyle, a past member of the CWA!

    https://www.amightygirl.com/blog?p=25020

  1783. As soon as I managed to contact the seller of the suitcase on bloody Facebook, she (Rhonda in Satwell, NSW) blocked me and withdrew the ad. That’s why I hate FB. Rude!

    https://web.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1667667170378159/?ref=category_feed&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post

  1784. John Sanders on September 26, 2023 at 9:00 pm said:

    Pat(sy): Seems to me that Rhonda with her rotten box (Keane suitcase clone) from Sawtell ain’t no bunny honey. Goodonya Rhonda, FB rules OK?

  1785. John Sanders on September 26, 2023 at 10:07 pm said:

    Jo & Co… and then there was Helene @ Mdm. Fiocca @ Capt. Forward of Special Operations Executive & formerly the French Resistance WW2. Check out her other credentials, nothing to scoff and, guess what, Mrs. Forward and hubby John settled in Sawtell (see Pat’s ‘last post’) after her political life. She died in ‘Blighty’ aged 99 it is said with a gin’n tonic in her ever staunch right hand and the great lady’s ashes being scattered over her old Resistannce stamping grounds of Montiucon France. Seems these days no one gives a rats arse for the exploits of wartime heroines eg., Nancy Wake, better known to the remaining few of her pals as The White Mouse.

  1786. John Sanders on September 27, 2023 at 12:15 am said:

    Pat: actually, if not for pressence of the other blue port, signs of age allong with different backround clutter, your Satwell [sic] job be identical with the discarded? Sapol suitcase, or it’s double as seen on the CM’s SM’s ‘The Very Social Somerton Man’s Suitcase’ pic. Even the concrete floor looks somehow familiar. How about that, see what you missed by trying to do a deal in worthless Brazilian Real?

  1787. John Sanders on September 27, 2023 at 1:05 am said:

    PeteDavo: a number of recalibrated enigma machines were aquired by OTC for use in PNG around 1955 and were still in service until the eighties from memory. When I posted on this some years it didn’t raise any eyebrows although I’m sure Gordon himself must have have seen it and been quite impressed nonethless. Details were taken from an OTC operators newsletter story by Xavier Herbert’s young brother David and you see for yourself the ‘no bullshit’ post here on CM if so inclined.

  1788. John Sanders on September 27, 2023 at 9:01 am said:

    Jo: according to a Wiki bio, Nancy Wake upon retirement and her hubby ex RAF officer John Melvin Forward, settled in Port Maquarie and not Sawtell which is a bit further up the NSW coast. John died there in 1997 after which Nancy was disposed to selling up everthing of value (medals included) and returning to England where she stayed in her favourite wartime pub, gratis. Whilst there she wrote her AB with a few stiff drinks daily as an aide memoire, content to spend her remaining days in good company and modest comfort.

  1789. Something interesting in Behrooz’s cache of PROV files – at the time of Freda Keane’s death in the early 1960s, Leo Keane lived at Rutland Court flats, 409 St Kilda Road. These flats were opposite the Melbourne Synagogue on the corner of Toorak Road, literally around the corner from Carl and Doff’s Bromby Street apartment. I wonder whether there were memories of or discussions about Charlie and Doff.

  1790. John Sanders on September 27, 2023 at 10:02 pm said:

    Jo: a kilometer between the two Sth Yarra addresses nominated by my reckoning, over half a mile in old terms which is a fair distance in suburban sprawl terms as anyone familiar with that part of Melbourne must agree. I’m sorry but I honestly don’t see any commonality berween the two addresses you’re on about.

  1791. John Sanders on September 28, 2023 at 1:53 am said:

    Our absent minded professor seems to have goofed again, this time in his FB critique of yet another fairly average Somerton Man mystery doco. In it he takes task over their naming of the attending RAH medico being Dr. Barley Bennett as opposed to Dr. Barkley Bennett (sans John) his correct monicker. Yet another, one of the unfortunate gaffs Derek has made with some regularity over many years, though not the biggest by a long shot. Surely the name John Barkly Bennett is not too difficult for a proclaimed world authority on Tamam Shud to remember.

  1792. David Morgan on September 28, 2023 at 4:30 pm said:

    @JS,

    The point of all the discourse was me trying to track an offender who started in Lower Plenty. I quite liked the idea of a mormon offender with fantasy child brides which would have tied in the Yates line. But it fizzled into at best forgery of a will.

    So then I started on the other religious guy with his 6 offenses.

    Along the way I bumped into the Stuart Pearce plot.

  1793. John Sanders on September 28, 2023 at 9:47 pm said:

    For a bit of good old Australia nostalgia but, still on unsolved suspected family oriented killings suggest you try the Gatton Qld murders of the three Murphy siblings in new years eve 1898 and the brutal slaying of Bertha Schippen 14 in her bed in 1902 at Towitta S.A. while Herr and Frau Schippen were out. If you’re still Keane on the Webb family genre there’s always the 1931/32 unsolvolved brutal Melbourne south side murders of two young women near their homes in about ie., Mary Dean and Hazel Wilson when whore mongering Thomas Blamey was Police Commissioner. Should keep you busy for a day or two.

  1794. John Sanders on September 29, 2023 at 4:08 am said:

    I guess it’d do any harm at this point to mention the 1899 murder of ten year old Sydney Pearce of Winton Qld. Whilst details are scanty the shooting death of the child caused quite a stir when it broke and was compounded by Police delays plus their failure to make an early arrest. Far as I’m aware the case remains open and the five hundred pound reward offered by the police for information leading to a conviction is possibly still on their books.

  1795. John Sanders on September 29, 2023 at 5:58 am said:

    As it turns out young Sydney Pearce of Winton was himself probably alive and well in September 1899 but, his namesake Sid Pearce, a district carter aged 25 was most assuredly not. The latter having been bludgeoned to death whilst tending to his loaded horse & wagon on 5th inst. Rockhampton Morning Bulletin in its report of even date equated the killing being as being likened to that of the three Murphy siblings at distant Gatton the previous year which included death of an innocent animal. As for the Pearce lad, there is record of his starting school in 1897 aged 8 and the LDS mob lists a person of the name being born in UK in 1889 so likely not a child of the victim thank goodness.

  1796. John and all.

    I may be mistaken, and I don’t want to presume to speak for our host, but my feeling is that it’s time we’ll all took the Somerton Man party somewhere else.

    Just a thought.

    Count me gone for one.

  1797. John sanders on September 29, 2023 at 1:23 pm said:

    Diane: I for one don’t have too many problems with Somerton Man perse, it’s the FB Carl Webb SM imposter and supporting cast of many that gets in my craw but, I do see your point and respect your decision to bale out.

  1798. @ Johnno – it’s obviously not your ‘hood. One tram stop apart – the old Domain interchange & Toorak Road stops. In their times there would be Melbourne Grammar, the ex Kellow Faulkiner car show rooms (now Royce Hotel), Southern Cross Garage, a chemist, Coonara Private Hospital, the Jolly Roger Cafe (now Gentleman George) and the synagogue between them… no suburban sprawl. And for what it’s worth, Victoria is correct on the adoption.

  1799. John Sanders on September 30, 2023 at 1:51 am said:

    David Morgan: I’m wondering whether there was ever any committed online discussion on the 1991 Pearce tragedy as there seems not to be a great deal of information on the case for sleuthers to digest. My initial interest which fizzled out through lack of press follow up ala., the Beaumont & Adelaide Oval abductions, was gleaned from a case study in Andrew Rule’s ‘Australia’s Greatest Mysteries’. I have a feeling my treasured reference book disappeared along with my Keane suitcase clone that went missing a during ‘a fit of spring cleaning’ in my absence.

  1800. John Sanders on September 30, 2023 at 11:06 am said:

    Jo: that’s fine by moi. You stick to “literally around the corner” and I’ll hang my ‘hood’ on half a mile and half way to town…I’ve forgotten who was adopted by Victoria? and when, if you could kindly run that past me again.

  1801. @John Sanders why are you a Department Store chain in the UK?

  1802. John Sanders on October 1, 2023 at 8:03 am said:

    @Curio: I’d much prefer to be ‘a rare, unusual or intriguing object’ like your good self but, being a UK Department Store chain with links to Marks & Spencer and Toys-for-Boys, I’m not complaining.

  1803. David Morgan on October 5, 2023 at 9:48 am said:

    @JS,

    In my search to match the 2004 guy to Mr Cruel I have ended up at the home later owned by MP Liz Penfold (or her agent) in Port Lincoln. But as always I can’t get back to 1995. I have a car that doesn’t match its registration advertised as a coupe but listed as sedan in offical records. I had already emailed the suspect prior to knowing about 2004 – and he first replied he had recollection of the telescope but sold the car around 85 not 95. Then he sent a separate email later just saying ‘no recollection’. In fact, the evidence is solid that he or his co-minister in PL sold the telescope with a wooden tripod. His co-minister also has some obsession about introducing porn into church services – but doesn’t seem to have been convicted. He had a special group who paid $100 to discuss it. He also followed the dodgy vicar around like a lapdog. Always youth working.

    The premise of my argument about Mr Cruel was ‘he knew too much’. I originally followed the Dr Elkner ASIO plot on NAA and assumed one of his pals was bugging him – I assumed a Yates. I then ended up in Lower Plenty following the JP Arthur Penn Yates assuming the young guy (his son) was part of the Vietnam Peace Movement in Yinnar/Morwell. But the LDS genealogy plot shows his son to be a train driver. So that route came to the end of the tracks.

    I have written to the Port Lincoln Historic Society to see whether anyone in that group remembers the Datsun 240K in 1995. The two other possible addresses was a house for sale for 12 months in 1995 in 13 Morgan Street and the other I think may have been old people’s housing where the person may have taken the number with them, perhaps from Morgan street.

    Likely former MP Liz Penfold could solve the house mystery knowing who lived in her house (or her agents) a few years before her. I have msg her but no luck.

    I found a potential record to show the dodgy vicar had worked in the MOD in London in communications making him a candidate bugger – which goes back to my original premise of a criminal who knew too much – e.g. knowing where the sock drawer was. The police believed he was watching from outside but I think a man with binoculars wouldn’t see the sock drawer. He also knew the family nicknames. I think he was bugging the houses. So that he knew when they went out or had gone to bed and could hear the small details about clean socks.

    He seems to be have been treated over-nicely in 2004 suggesting he had powerful friends. I suppose by bugging you could know all the secrets of all the vicars and powerful people and they can become your best friends.

    It as fascinating that he was video recorded committing his sex offences. Was his own recordings used as court evidence? Was the bugger bugged?

    He also video recorded church services.

  1804. John Sanders on October 6, 2023 at 4:04 am said:

    David Morgan: in re your Mr. Cruel quest. One of poor murdered Templestowe schoolgirl Karmein Chan’s sisters said that the intruder spoke to somebody called Bozo or Bowser on the house phone and whilst no record of any call was found it makes little difference. I’ve now just by chance come across the pet name ‘bowser’ for a former associate of your present reverend suspect who was known by that rather untowards monicker. If you have anything I may have missed on Wikipedia that I could follow up with, you’ll let me know of course.

  1805. John sanders on October 6, 2023 at 8:34 am said:

    DM: you’ll be aware that the Bozo threatening phone call (?) lead relates to the 1987 Lower Plenty home invasion and came from the rape victim herself, not the Chan sisters of the later abduction & murder of Karmein, as I’d assumed.

  1806. John Sanders on October 13, 2023 at 7:31 am said:

    A tragic outcome in an attempt to make off with Paddy Hannan’s heavy bronze head from the Statue in down town Kalgoorlie last night. The chief ‘assailant’ in misjudging his cut angle was compelled to jump clear as poor Paddy’s severed noggin plumetted earthwards, thereby crushing the foot of a female accomplice The city plods were quick off the mark for a change in response to loud screams directing them to a scene of utter carnage and accusory filth laden expletives. The unofficial story is that some codger with an unusual middle name was arrested on suspicion of vandalism and reckless behaviour whilst his attendant lady is now in hospital demanding that the city pay injury compensation. Don’t bother looking for the true facts as such would be deemed socially unacceptable, or else are being witheld until such time as the injured ‘bystander’ gets her justifiable million dollar plus victims payout.

  1807. David Morgan on December 15, 2023 at 5:36 am said:

    Nick,

    I have written repeatedly to Colleen about the hair samples she said Abbott had from the police:
    e.g.

    15/12/2023

    Colleen,

    In his book the Unknown Man former policeman Gerry Feltus says that:

    “Considering the possibility that something may happen to the cast of the Unknown Man or some serious contamination could occur, I decided to obtain random hair samples for future reference. In 2006 I was fortunate to make contact with a past acquaintance who was an expert in hair samples and DNA in the forensic science field. This person agreed to examine the hair samples.”

    That might mean the policeman who gave you or prof Abbott hair samples was Gerry Feltus after he retired in 2006?

    But is Gerry telling the truth? If he didn’t know about DNA until the late 1980s. Were the hair samples stored by Lawson when he shaved hair from Carl?

    [pictures shown of rows of Australian clay death masks – mostly bald men, then dead Carl in profile then his clay bust showing raised hair but no hair in clay above his ears]

    The last time I raised this she said it was tautology. But the facts are important.

    I said I did not believe the police sought out Prof Abbott to give him police evidence 10 years ago. But it does make sense if it was Feltus but he also lied in his book as he wouldn’t have known about DNA until after the 1980s and I doubt he extracted hair from the bust with tweezers. It was more likely from Lawson’s ‘private collection’.

  1808. David Morgan on December 15, 2023 at 8:24 am said:

    Colleen’s latest reply 15/12/2023

    David,

    Don’t think too hard about this. The hairs we used were from bundles embedded in the plaster. Derek had a forensic anthropologist remove hairs from the center of the bundles using tweezers and a magnifying glass – that is, hair that had not been in contact with the plaster. We have a video of that.

    Colleen.

  1809. David Morgan on December 15, 2023 at 8:30 am said:

    My reply 15/12/2023

    Colleen

    Gerry Feltus – The Unknown Man

    On 2006 examination – possibly a written report?

    “No suitable DNA could be obtained, possibly due to formalin and other contamination. There was noticeable insect damage to the hair shaft. One hair looked like it had a putrid root, which is common to see when the hair is attached to a dead person. (There is not much literature on how long it takes for a root to get putrid following death) it is around 8 hours. Other than the above observation – not too much more – looked like caucasian hair.”

  1810. David Morgan on December 15, 2023 at 8:39 am said:

    This is a weird bit from Feltus:

    “Witnesses have made reference to the Unknown Man having a red tinge to his hair. From my own observation of the cast I agree”

    [image of clay bust]

    Does anyone know how his hair colour can be transferred to clay?

  1811. David Morgan on December 15, 2023 at 1:45 pm said:

    @JS,

    For Mr Cruel, I tried Behrooz’s High Court contact (who had lived in PL up to his teens) – but his admin sensibly told me to forward to the police. I am surprised others can break through the ‘sensible’ wall. But his local PL knowlege would be valuable. For example, were there rumours…

    I sort of slyly forward that to SAPOL thinking – it looks like it’s forward from Adelaide high court…but no-one took the bait.

    It may be up to you if I pop my clogs.

    I had hoped you knew someone in a SAPOL cold case team. I could be wrong but I suspect in 2004 he targeted girls who had learning difficulties thinking no-one would believe them.

    I will have to write up my simple evidence without a name. Let someone else figure it out.

  1812. John Sanders on December 15, 2023 at 10:32 pm said:

    David Morgan: to the very best of my knowledge, my last contact with Sapol was likely to have been late December 1974 or early January 1975 when I had reason to debrief Det. Sgt. Swain who was at that time seeking information on suspects of the Beaumont/Adelaide Oval abductions cases. Attempts to communicate with Angas Street CIB cold case OIC Det. Spt. Des Bray through S.A. Attorney General and Police Minister in 2019/20 have not been responded to, so sorry can’t help.

  1813. You debriefed whom and when and for what? You
    Aren’t a copper. You aren’t an officer. You’re a twat.

  1814. Byron Deveson on December 16, 2023 at 6:41 am said:

    David,
    Gerry was commenting on the colour of the hair protruding from the plaster bust. When a death mask or similar is made some hair is pulled out and remains in the plaster. When a plaster cast is made the reverse happens to some extent. I have personally seen this.

  1815. David Morgan on December 16, 2023 at 11:03 am said:

    After a lengthy back and fore during the early hours (for me) with Colleen it ended up with her saying.

    “absolutely not interesting to me”.

    I was trying to say to her people are not just DNA and biology and that what they do identifies them to us. It also makes us human to be interested in them as people and not just biological organisms. I wanted to know what happened to Carl as a human being. It was not enough for me to know his name.

  1816. John Sanders on December 16, 2023 at 9:46 pm said:

    LCMc…..None of us can be sure of anything in this life, and all to soon it’s done…most don’t see it coming but, I’ve a feeling you’re not one hon!
    As for your “whom and when” query, you have the answer..Stan ‘Killer’
    Swain, you’ll find him on trove,1952 from memory; His motto webt along
    the lines of, “I never killed a man that didn’t have it coming”. Nice one eh?

  1817. And you worked for Killer Swain? You must be ninety then! Even if you worked in the 70s as a private dick in Adelaide and not just as a freshly turned out turd for LBJ. Why don’t you write an autobiography? It could be called ‘the lies and lies of John Slanders!’. With a foreword by me, Lady Cynthia.

  1818. Lord CoB on December 17, 2023 at 7:45 pm said:

    @David Morgan

    My team have seen that video that Colleen was talking about and mentioned it here before. For example:

    Steve Hurwood
    on June 25, 2023 at 1:41 pm said:

    “@David Morgan There is another video on YouTube that shows Derek and the students “finding” the hair on the bust in the police museum in 2009:

    https://youtu.be/GIUP-wVw60k?t=465

    (THE SOMERTON MAN, WHERE NEXT? thread)

    Colleen told you: “The hairs we used were from bundles embedded in the plaster.” There was indeed a surprisingly large clump of hair in the bust which was in the SA police museum. Trouble is if you look for that video now it says “This video has been removed for violating YouTube’s Community Guidelines”. It was a Stateline Report – Part 2 is still available:

    https://youtu.be/GNgsA1aHNHA?si=rw2gjk-AWREl2UB8

    The same students were shown walking into the police museum and looking at the bust and were talking about collecting some of the hair for tests.

    DA is prolly busy now helping politicians out with the Israel/Palestine conflict:

    “The problem with violent approaches to conflict such as wars, is the destruction and loss of life. Also because the world is a complex social network we never can predict, in advance, whether any proposed war is going to result in a continuing cycle that breeds further endless wars or fizzles out in peace. Some conflicts end in a dramatic halt, but some just seem to drag on and on without an end in sight. The Israel-Palestine conflict is an example where warfare seems endless. We need constructive rather than destructive solutions to problems. It is vital that we have more top engineers closely advising politicians how to problem solve in a constructive peaceful way. How would an engineer go about solving the Israel-Palestine conflict?”

    https://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/wiki/index.php/Opinion:_How_to_solve_the_Israel-Palestine_conflict

  1819. David Morgan on December 18, 2023 at 1:07 am said:

    @lord Cob,

    You can clearly see the hair…design…

    https://imgur.com/a/wOttxwF

    The hair was shaved and like a good taxidermist he might put the sweepings in a bag since he was watched intensely by the police.

  1820. David Morgan on December 20, 2023 at 1:11 pm said:

    Clues for which logic always seemed to be suspended.

    When presented with the electrical screwdriver – people assumed Carl broke into cars
    when presented with H grade pencils people didn’t immediately say “technical drawing”
    When presented with the poetry book thrown in the window – he was using it to break into cars not an educated person.

    Just the first 2 clues we have electricity and technical drawing. The codes on the back of the Rubaiyat might suggest some sort of telephone wiring connections/junction box.

    Then he has the stenciling – items. Anyone who has worked in a drawing office (just me?) would have had duties like putting letraset onto the physical item being made – such as an electrical cabinet for a telephone company. They might label things like Power, On/off.

    Feltus suggests the image we use of the torn-out Tamam Shud is incorrect and that it should be smaller and more precisely extracted. If so, it is more likely Carl would draw a rectangle with his H pencils and by repeated over-drawing eventually push through to extract it more neatly – like a label on an electrical cabinet. He might use a cigarette box for a template.

    Again in a more modern drawing office you might have aluminium pieces with letraset on the top for labels that would be stuck above a switch or control with on/off. This was the sort of job I did every day for 18 months as well as using my pencils (and pens) for technical drawings. I suspect that was what Carl was doing for Sher. Perhaps designing drills.

    But it shows we tend to think badly of people when they lie dead on a beach. He couldn’t be a draughtsman in a telecoms company who lost his job. He had to be a criminal.

  1821. John Sanders on December 21, 2023 at 5:34 am said:

    David Morgan: All fits neat’n trim, now that we find our former Sherr siren maker equiped with non conductive screwdriver and technical drawing aids for labeling of electrical control switch boxes. All in accord with his trade and calling as a precision instrument maker electrical fitter. All that is, except for the clever cigarette packet template which is unlikely to have been part of any kit carried by a confirmed non tobacco smoking ether addict, going on evidence found in Doff’s divorce petition; but hang on, what about them tobacco strands and tailories found on the body? perhaps a rethink be in order.

  1822. David Morgan on December 21, 2023 at 9:20 am said:

    @JS

    He had a box of matches. He just has to draw around it to create a rectangle around “tamum shud”. Even pipe smokers used boxes of matches when their lighters failed.

    This is the best I could get with AI but you have to imagine the stencil is the box of matches.

    https://imgur.com/a/nTSyhnI

    The point really is to say he was likely a skilled engineer designing drills/sirens not fixing them. The fixer doesn’t have H grade pencils.

  1823. John Sanders on December 21, 2023 at 9:50 pm said:

    David Morgan: might you be reminded that there was no mention of matches until seven months after the fact, apart from first offender Constable John Moss’ most emphatic “…he never had a match on him”, statement made to top selling scandal sheet Truth Newspaper just days following the beach death. Anyhow what’s that got to do with Carl Webb’s assumed engineering attributes which have yet to be validated.

  1824. David Morgan on December 22, 2023 at 4:13 am said:

    @JS,

    It goes back to how someone does something. If you wanted to extract the words tamum shud from a poetry book. If you had worked (like Carl at Sher) with a drawing board and pencils and pens it would affect the way you solve problems. With his drawing board he would stick the page on the board – draw a rectangle around the words with his H pencil and then cut the rectangle out with a razor blade.

    If we believe Feltus then this is similar to the cut-out he observed not the media recreation we see.

    We know the SM had a small electrical screwdriver. It was speculated electronic not heavy electrical engineering. More like the small insulated screwdriver we would use to wire a plug. We know Carl’s sister said he was an electrician in Cottesloe.

    SM had soft hands – no callouses and neat fingernails. Even electricians who wire houses get cuts and bumps on their hands. It is quite a manual skill more than a design skill.

    The SM probably got muscular doing sport – weights. His leg muscles from riding a bike. A fitness nut. A wannabe Charles Atlas or pro Aussie football player.

  1825. John Sanders on December 22, 2023 at 11:04 pm said:

    David Morgan: If “we know that SM had a small electrical screwdriver”, then how come it didn’t appear alongside other tools in the posed police photo of suitcase contents or at any time thereafter?…End of the day mate, we don’t know F. Hall.

  1826. John Sanders on December 23, 2023 at 12:44 am said:

    …never saw, nor heard of anyone speak of the ‘light board’ described as such in a couple of ‘suitcase contents’ lists; Seems it might have been confused with the folded piece of sheet metal by some but, why not an electric board, not to forget the ‘piece of light chord’, if that was something separate?

  1827. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-24/red-letter-mystery-anagram-at-tweed-regional-museum-solved/103255592?utm_source=abc_news_app&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_app&utm_content=safari

    Just a good story! This is the man we need for MLIABO etc.!

    Best wishes for Christmas and the festive season, thanks Nick for another year of Ciphermysteries!

  1828. John Sanders on December 24, 2023 at 10:35 am said:

    Jo: Surprised to see Erica still on the job at the Mur’bah museum, wonder if folks want details about her tatoo also. I can ask if she’s happy let us know though reckon you might already eh?…Merry Xmas to all God’s children and give peace a chance for Christ’s sake.

  1829. Merry Christmas everyone 🎄✌🏻

  1830. David Morgan on December 26, 2023 at 12:59 am said:

    What are the chances of a little Charles and Webb street in Melbourne.

    https://imgur.com/a/5Pc3IYn

  1831. David Morgan on December 29, 2023 at 8:50 pm said:

    This could be a possible Carl around 1942 at K. Bowes & Co. The photo collection seems to be part of a Holden collection implying they were making stuff for vehicles. I can’t imagine in 1942 it was parts for standard cars but I guess people had to get around.

    https://imgur.com/a/0LQVvYq

  1832. David Morgan on December 30, 2023 at 10:24 pm said:

    K.Bowes & Co fits with a company with protected undertakings during WW2.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48745256?searchTerm=%22k.bowes%20%26%20co%22

    They were diecasters in 1948.

    Die casting is a process that involves forcing molten metal under high pressure into a mold cavity. The main diecasting alloys are zinc, aluminium, magnesium, copper, lead, and tin. Lead and tin: high density; extremely close dimensional accuracy; used for special forms of corrosion resistance.

    Company Location (1950s):
    https://imgur.com/a/yfpAONl

  1833. Sharon Lindimore on January 15, 2024 at 9:47 pm said:

    Hi Nick, my favorite intellectual of all time. You might find this interesting. I bought a box at an auction for 30.00 It had Marie Byrd on top and it was from a barn. It of course, from Admiral Byrd. There were encrypted telegrams from FDR to Mr Byrd. I decrypted them, I have had no experience with decryption. What they were is descibe to T how they wanted their quarters to look like down to the silverware in the Byrd compound. He sent this to flee from the WH to the Byrd compound after the kidnapping of the Lindberg baby. There were also letters from Lindberg inside. I mean this whole box is the lost box from the Admiral Byrd museum in Columbus, we willed it to them. I still wonder why. No one seemed to understand the significance. FDR always encrypted his telegrams. BTW, the solutions on the Zodiac killer ciphers were correct, they are arabic translations. I did talk to Don Wildman, he said we need a forensic pathologist to investigate the pictures found. One is very suspicious. Thanks, your fan, Sharon

  1834. David Morgan on February 7, 2024 at 7:40 am said:

    One Somerton suicide was Mr Max Grant Jacobs of Napier Terrace, Unley Park.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22max%20grant%20jacobs%22

    He told his family he was going to the beach for a blow. There was no inquest.

  1835. David Morgan on February 7, 2024 at 7:44 am said:
  1836. John Sanders on February 7, 2024 at 9:03 am said:

    David Morgan: Looks like Max Jacobs got himself in over the top with one of Clarrie Hatly’s get rich quick ponzi schemes which preceded the 1929 London and NY SM crashes. Good thinking being able to hide a decent stash for to take care of mum and the family.

  1837. David Morgan on February 7, 2024 at 3:56 pm said:

    1929 Max Grant Jacob – no S – is interesting it says here he was a hotel proprietor in Colombo with a wife Gretchen.

    https://imgur.com/a/b5xOy5m

    In 1918 his military record was Home duty-based because he had poor vision yet he was a mechanic.

    In 1927 he had a daughter Dorothea. Not Dorothy. But why didn’t she return from Colombo with them? Did she die?

    In 1929 he died a salesman on the Somerton beach after he shot himself with a revolver. Yet he had enough money.

  1838. David Morgan on February 7, 2024 at 4:26 pm said:

    Gretchen Kindermann (max grant jacob’s wife) was a promising writer. She wrote about an arranged marriage where the girl died at the altar. She liked acting and singing but then became a housewife with a young child that seems to disappear.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63889725?searchTerm=%22gretchen%20kindermann%22

  1839. David Morgan on February 7, 2024 at 8:13 pm said:

    I have a love of coincidences when researching crimes for example the coroner in Brighton (UK) in 1948 was named Charles Webb.
    In 1957 when they were discussing Woomera the Labour member was named Charles Webb. He asked whether it was used to test US missiles.
    When Max Grant Jacob committed suicide on the Somerton beach his wife’s name was Gretchen Dorothea and Carl’s wife was Dorothy. He was 12 years older than Dorothea, Carl was 15 years older than Dorothy. He was listed as a salesman when in fact he had been a hotel proprietor. Carl was thought to be a cabinet maker when he was an electrical engineer. Originally, it was speculated Carl might have made musical instruments not drills.

    The difference was there was no inquest for Max yet he left a sizeable amount of money giving his wife a motive to bump him off whereas Carl seemed to have no money not even in a bank account yet it has been speculated Dorothy was a black widow.

    In her prize-winning essay Gretchen highlighted the bridesmaid dying from a broken heart on her wedding day being made to marry someone she didn’t love. Perhaps her marriage to Max was arranged and she kept feelings for someone else. Her 2-year-old daughter Dorothea seems to have disappeared from the scene. Perhaps again a similar plot to Brenda Webb that the child wasn’t the father’s child and it was the reason Gretchen plotted to get rid of him and Dorothea back with the real father.

  1840. John Slanders on February 7, 2024 at 10:28 pm said:

    David Morgan,
    (Chad Morgan’s fatal wedding)

    The wife she died at the alter
    The groom up and died next day
    The parson dropped dead in the church yard
    As he was about to pray
    The hearse capsized at the crossroads
    It couldn’t make the turn
    And the congregation cheered like mad
    As they watched the old church burn
    And then the Heavens broke open
    And the rain it started to fall
    And the whole flamin’town got washed away
    And there was no one le-eft at all

  1841. David Morgan on February 8, 2024 at 8:21 am said:

    @JS,

    It was the coincidence of Gretchen’s curious essay of death of a broken heart and then Max gets shot through the heart at close range.

    I wonder how many men shoot themselves through the heart as a means of suicide?

  1842. john slanders on February 8, 2024 at 9:03 am said:

    @DB,

    Reckon I’d follow Max..Probably be inclined to flinch otherwise and either blow me one good ear or worse still me flamin’n nose orf. Couldn’t live with that.

  1843. Alan H on February 9, 2024 at 3:11 am said:

    This may be quite miscellaneous for a miscellaneous page but here goes:-
    Is there anyone that can tell me the registered owner of a vehicle or registered address in the UK by rego number?
    The UK was in the midst of changing rego plate style about 1960 when some were geographic and some weren’t but I am after details on a Blue Austin A40 Farina MkII from about 1961. White numbers/letters on black background. It searches as registered at London NW but I think it resided elsewhere. It was new at the time I mention.
    570 DGK
    Thnx, fingers crossed.

  1844. David Morgan on March 4, 2024 at 1:08 pm said:

    Is anyone in the group a forensic expert? Generally, if wounds were wide and deeper would that indicate overarm angular blows and if from the same weapon narrower would they be wounds from underarm stabbing with the victim stood up?

    Wounds about 7cm and 4cm in width from a 5cm blade. Could the 3 x 7cm blows also break ribs – from example upto 6 ribs at the back and upto 6 six at the front? The 4 narrow stabs could break up to 8 ribs at the back. In total up to 20 ribs.

  1845. Peter M. on March 5, 2024 at 2:55 am said:

    Are you thinking of the Middle Ages?
    With a battle axe. It cuts, but mainly smashes bones.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe

  1846. Peter M. on March 5, 2024 at 5:32 am said:

    In this day and age, length and width in relation to depth, and the broken bones, I would guess a splitting hammer without seeing it.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalthammer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_maul

  1847. David Morgan on March 6, 2024 at 2:19 am said:

    @PW
    The surviving victim described machete but it was recorded as a butcher;s knife by the FBI,

    I was trying to guess a way to arrive at a large number of broken bones – I assumed ribs but front and back, But with only about 8 wounds I am struggling to get to above 16, I suppose either side could be 16 and 16. Bone above and below x 2 = 32.

  1848. John Sanders on March 6, 2024 at 8:00 am said:

    David Morgan: how about a HD meat cleaver (bone chopper). I dare say that’d get the job done according to the discription given of the skeletal and bodily damage.

  1849. David Morgan on March 6, 2024 at 5:17 pm said:

    @JS,

    Yes it would be easy to think of some deadly weapon to match the injuries but the FBI gave a precise description of a serrated butcher’s knife. It is the 30 bones cut with just 8 obvious piercings described by the victim that troubles me.

    The victim says she was lying on her side. The guy stabbing had an injury from her penknife in his palm so he might have been just a bit cross with her. But only half seem to be full thrust as it were and the others seem like tentative stabbings as the width ‘seem’ narrower than the blade. You’d imagine not bone – breaking front and back.

    But my theory is she lied. I wondered how much injury a person could self-inflict with a machete. The clustering is all top left corner. I mean the guy was supposed to be angry – but he kept a tight grouping on the left. None to her right side on her back. But sawing with a serrated blade on your own back may be a step too far even for a psychopathic liar.

    But she made a huge mistake about the time forgetting sunset times. An easy mistake to make when you end up in court years later and it’s bright sunshine.
    She should have been struggling back to humanity in the near-dark.

    I have been trying to research whether the FBI agent who wrote the report herself was killed by a guy saying he was an FBI informant who went AWOL. Perhaps she started to question the original statements and perhaps sent disclosing emails that got her bumped off.

    Never question the official truth. I tried that once with a simple speeding fine and they sent 2 barristers and 3 policemen to court. The magistates got bullied by senior police officers sat at the back of the court ‘observing’.

  1850. David Morgan on March 6, 2024 at 6:03 pm said:

    I was reading the new book In the Blink of an Eye (99p on Kindle – I was pushing the boat out as they say) and she arrived at a fictional human-like AI working out the height of a person disarming CCTV with a laser pen with a formula. What she didn’t explain was the step of converting pixel length of an arm at any angle from a photo/CCTV image to physical length. I have been trying to achieve that for years. @NP take note!

    For example, we could then work out teenage Carl’s height.

    But real AI says:
    There are several formulas used to estimate height from ulna length, and they can vary based on factors such as age and gender refs:1,2,3,4,5,6. One commonly used formula is:

    $$\text{Height (cm)} = a \times \text{Ulna Length (cm)} + b$$

    Where a and b are constants that can vary. For example, one study found the constants to be 3.958 and 664.72 respectively (3). Another study suggested different constants for males and females(5).

    Assuming an ulna length of 26 cm [from book], and using the formula from the BAPEN chart12, the estimated height would be approximately 1.73 meters for men under 65 years, 1.75 meters for women under 65 years, 1.62 meters for men over 65 years, and 1.66 meters for women over 65 years.

    To convert these heights to feet and inches, we can use the conversion factors 1 meter = 3.281 feet or 1 meter = 39.37 inches. Therefore, the estimated heights in feet and inches would be approximately:

    Men under 65 years: 5 feet 8 inches

    Women under 65 years: 5 feet 9 inches

    Men over 65 years: 5 feet 4 inches

    Women over 65 years: 5 feet 5 inches

    Please note that these are rough estimates and actual height may vary. It’s also important to remember that this method is typically used when more direct methods of measuring height are not feasible or practical (1,2).

    Source(s)

    1. Alternative measurements: instructions and tables Alternative … – BAPEN

    2. Estimating Height from Ulna Length – hauoratairawhiti.org.nz

    3. Estimating body height from ulna length: need of a population-specific …

    4. Frontiers | Predicting Body Height in a Pediatric Intensive Care Unit …

    5. Height prediction from ulna length – Wiley Online Library

    6. Determining the predictive equation for height from ulnar length in the …

  1851. David Morgan on March 6, 2024 at 10:44 pm said:

    The new version of Claude.ai called Opus, I don’t know if available yet. But they did an intelligence test on it called ‘the needle in the haystack’. So this is my own analogy of the test – but imagine someone inserted into all the Works of Shakespeare a single sentence on one page “cheese is the best topping on pizza”.

    So they asked Opus a question like based on the complete works of Shakespeare what is the best pizza topping.

    So it came back with the answer cheese. But then it came back with more detail that it thought this was a test of its own ability to find a needle in a haystack as the sentence didn’t fit in the complete works of Shakespeare.

    So there are interesting times ahead with AI like finding the facts that don’t fit in a criminal investigation.

    For example, I heard that only 2% of people are ginger-haired in a population like Carl. But Australia?

    In australia, Victoria there were 986 mentions, 1940 to 1949. But it is likely most will be about the same person within a few months of each other.

    The last straw for Carl was to find Persians find red hair ugly. The End.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269484479?searchTerm=%22red%20hair%22
    Now imagine AI could race through every record on Trove and find what percentage of people were described as having red or ginger hair in a newspaper. My guess would be less than 1%.

  1852. David Morgan on March 7, 2024 at 9:35 am said:

    In the novel I was disappointed that having got AI to work out the height of a person from the length of the ulna it was not used at the end when the person was found nor was their age determined.

    Also why the AI wasn’t narrowing down who the suspect could be. The ulna solution ‘should’ have got AI to the possible answer almost straight away.

    In Carl Webb’s case if the ulna solution says he’s 5′ 11″ +/- ? and as a missing person that would eliminate anyone missing/body say 5′ 6″ for researchers who don’t trust the autopsy height.

    But pixel size to physical length is the issue. You need a known object in the picture to know it’s size.

  1853. David Morgan on March 8, 2024 at 7:35 pm said:

    For example, I was told that the width of a tie at the knot is 3.25″. That could be used to determine the pixel to inch ratio in the Somerton Man picture. Just as a test run.

    Then for the school picture there must be another indicator of a physical object that could be measured and then calculated in pixels to detertmine its pixel to inches caculator. I suspect you’d need a pixel to inch formula for each seated row as you move away from the camera position.

  1854. David Morgan on March 10, 2024 at 7:42 pm said:

    I was trying with https://www.rapidtables.com/web/tools/pixel-ruler.html

    But I couldn’t get consistent pixel measurements to use because he is at a strange angle and that SM tie could be 4″ wide.

    It needs probably 3 people to take measurements and then create an average for example the distance between the outer edge of eye sockets is supposed to be about 5″. Could be about 100 pixels on the view I was using with a photo width of about 316 pixels.

  1855. john slanders on March 11, 2024 at 9:25 am said:

    David Morgan: Like Gordon Cramer @BS/TS I feel you could be out with the pixies.

  1856. David Morgan on March 11, 2024 at 4:17 pm said:

    @JS (et al)

    Here is a practical demo. The tin is about 17cm in length. Actually 17.2.

    https://imgur.com/gallery/afahPXX

    If we measure the pixel length it is 2499.

    If we convert we get 1 cm = 147 pixels

    If we then measure the label it comes to 1414 pixels which we can convert to 9.6 cm and we can check it with a tape and it is correct.

    If we know the physical size of ‘an object’ in the image and we measure its pixel length ‘in that image’ then we have a pixel tape measure to measure any item ‘in that direction’ but only in that image.

    So Pixels are not for the pixies.

    In the book In the Blink of an Eye the AI detective uses video image distances (but he has lidar and can visit the scene to get physical distances) for his pixel to cm tape measure and then can work out the length of the ulna to work out the height of the person.

    We can do the same with other parts of the human body. The distance between the outer eye sockets (including SMs) is quite constant. But it can be used as a test to see what his height was.

    It needs people to ‘have a go’ and see what answer they arrive at.

    You can’t rely on sick old men to do the techie things!

  1857. john slanders on March 12, 2024 at 12:25 am said:

    @DM (& Alan H.)

    Forget the late Gordon Cramer’s ‘on the slab’ Safcol measurement which neither Pathologist Dwyer or Prof. J. Cleland seemed to be cognizant with. According to generally accredited shoe size to height ratio conversion method, the beach body with varified size eight brown brogues was no taller than 5′ 9″ though more likely 5’7 to 5′ 9″. NB. Not sure what to make of Barb Dwyer’s “Tallish” description for his slab subject, he being on the shortish side by comparison

  1858. John Sanders on March 12, 2024 at 7:38 am said:

    Peteb: you may recall not so long ago and far awray, my mention of recruit photo hight charts and why we should not rely absolutely on their accuracy. I just looked up Doc. John Matthew Dwyer’s WW2 record details and his accompanying photo. He was listed as being 5′ 7 1/2″ and whilst that figure is not disputed, the height inch markers seem somewhat askew in my view. Take a squiz and report back.

  1859. David Morgan on March 16, 2024 at 4:31 pm said:

    Sizing the ashtray with pixels to mm

    luckily the coin is likely a thrupenny bit which would be about 21mm

    so we end up with:

    https://imgur.com/gallery/DoPLvD5

    286 x 21 pixels /70 mm = 85.8

    Which makes it just over 3 inches – which is bigger than the tin of polish.

  1860. David Morgan on March 16, 2024 at 5:34 pm said:
  1861. John Sanders on March 16, 2024 at 10:21 pm said:

    DM: if you care to browse Burch brothers posts here or on the SM Ultimate blog, you’ll find mention of the glass prize dish with sunflower motif made in USA. No links but you’ll pick the match easily enough on related sites. Yep you’re right about the size, comparison with the Kiwi tan shoe polish can being well known from the SM suitcase scatter photo.

  1862. Byron Deveson on March 17, 2024 at 1:16 am said:

    David, the “Trey”/”Thruppence” was 16 mm in diameter. See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threepence_(Australian_coin)
    This is my recollection as well, about 16 mm sound right.

  1863. John Sanders on March 17, 2024 at 10:58 am said:

    David Morgan: Sorry pal but you and Byron Deveson are both off key. Study your thruppeny bit in the glass dish a bit more diligently and I’m sure you’ll find that it be a brown button instead; most likely it’s the one missing from his trouser fly.

  1864. David Morgan on March 17, 2024 at 1:25 pm said:

    @JS,

    It was the sizing that mattered. it gave a point of reference suit button or coin the size was probably the same. It was to develop the idea that if you know the size of an object you can work out another. You could guess it from the polish tin.

    The same is true with facial ID. If you can store the sizes of facial landmarks from one fae when you compare it with another ‘if enough’ match – say 80% then you can say with some confidence it is likely the same person.

    If you knew the size of say the wing mirrors in a car and the bonnet and side doors you could determine the model of the car. The same is true with facial iD.

    So the doppelganger Roy is most likely to be Roy Webb because I tested it with 4 different facial ID systems. Each system uses its own software using different measurements but each arrived at the same conclusion. Roy is Roy.

    You can accept facial ID when it says Roy in family photo is Roy in his army clothes but a neutral person might say they could be brothers. Remember many people saw Roy looking like the Somerton man’s face mask more than Carl. You are informed by your research not your eyes.

    Facial ID does no NAA research – it measures pixels accurately and then compares pixel lengths with pixel lengths and then with a pixel tolerance it judges whether it is the same person. It knows about yaw and pitch and so uses mathematics to adjust some distances. We ‘sort of do it’ when we recognise a person in profile and we don’t really see the whole face.

  1865. David Morgan on March 17, 2024 at 1:39 pm said:

    @JS,

    I don’t really care whether it was a button or coin but looking at the situation of the SM’s suicide he prepared well. Clean clothes, immaculately polished shoes, shaved. He took time to rip out the final message and stuff it in his fob pocket. He took time to get rid of evidence that tied him to himself and he seemed to want to point to Keane to mislead. But for some reason (in your estimation) that small detail of a button falling off his clothes he couldn’t be bothered?

    It doesn’t matter to me. But perhaps it insults SM’s detailed preparation.

  1866. John Sanders on March 17, 2024 at 10:49 pm said:

    @DM,

    You can promote theories incorporating pixies and Chatterbox distortions til the cows come home. Just so long as it substantistes your self serving ideas of what constitutes evidence and that it convinces disoriented “Charlie Webb” devotees, than it be justified. I commend your owning that the silver threepence in the glass dish be masquerading as a brown button. Of course it has F Hall to do with pixel counts, highly polished shoes, or having only one spare pair of sox in his suitcase.

  1867. David Morgan on March 18, 2024 at 3:50 am said:

    One bizarre clue

    “500 played by non-dancers”

    Does anyone know what it means?

    Is it a signal for some illicit activity?

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22500%20played%20by%20non-dancers%22

  1868. David Morgan on March 18, 2024 at 5:56 am said:

    Why is the spoon in his luggage called a teaspoon?

    I have been looking at standard dessert spoons and it should be 7.9 inches. But it looks a bit shorter and perhaps antique.

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Lj8AAOSwHylhGqsl/s-l960.jpg

    That’s a dish that’s just a glass dish and a spoon that’s just a spoon. No wonder the solution was never found if they ignored the clues. Both could have been stolen from a hotel or passed down through the family.

    The glass dish could be by lalique potentially some 1930s tour de france item. The shorter dessert spoon potentially from the 1800s taken from England by Richard Webb.

    It could be the Tour de France was Carl’s cycling ambition. Who was Keith Webb?

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/91817973?searchTerm=%22cyclist%22%2C%20%22keith%20webb%22

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/86562354?searchTerm=%22tour%20de%20france%22%2C%20%22webb%22

  1869. David Morgan on March 18, 2024 at 6:20 pm said:

    Keith Leonard Webb who took part in Tour de France looked like this:

    https://imgur.com/gallery/iK3DSOE

    So nothing like Carl.

  1870. David Morgan on March 18, 2024 at 9:50 pm said:

    Does Carl’s ashtray look like a French lalique design – with tobacco leaves or ferns?

    https://imgur.com/gallery/xCMsLNT

    The glass seems quite frosted not clear.

  1871. John Sanders on March 18, 2024 at 10:09 pm said:

    @DM: the dish doesn’t have the smoky mystiqe of trad. Lalique for mine but why not New England, or cheap replica Indiana fairground ware that I chanced upon and offered for consideration some years ago … As for your KLW TDF photo, he be a dead spitter for the SM body on the slab though sadly Imgur doesn’t give dates. “So nothing like Carl” also sits well with me in that case.

  1872. john sanders on March 18, 2024 at 10:17 pm said:

    DM … “500 played by non-dancers” means precisely what it says; can’t be any clearer than that mate. Sorry.

  1873. john sanders on March 18, 2024 at 10:58 pm said:

    CM Admin….Is it your take up or my output that sucks? Behrooz had similar problems just recently!

  1874. John Sanders on March 19, 2024 at 1:32 am said:

    @DM,

    Can’t find nowhere suggesting Richard Webb ever put a foot on England’s fair shores. So maybe it was an Edward Lear runsable spoon and the glass dish 18th century Stratford soda ware, both items lifted from Ina Harvey’s Strathmore Hotel dining room; Not by anyone named Webb of course but, most probably old Jerry Somerton the Man himself.

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