A very intriguing Somerton Man-related email arrived here today from CM commenter & researcher Angela. In her quest to find out a bit more of what happened to Dorothy Jean Webb, she decided to pay the nice people at South Australian Genealogy & Heraldry Society to do some additional research for her, and wants to share her findings with everyone!
This is because Genealogy SA’s research coordinator Beryl Schahinger has just reported back to Angela to let her know that “she had found an entry in the marriage index for the District of Daly (which includes Kadina and Bute) for a Dorothy Jean Webb to Geoffrey A. Lockyer in 1952. This fits nicely with Dorothy’s divorce. Unfortunately, there is a 75-year embargo on marriage records for the State of South Australia.“
Angela has also managed to dig up the following information about Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer:
- Born 12 Jan 1918 in Perth, Western Australia (WA: 224/1921).
- Served in WWII.
- Married for the first time in 1941 in Western Australia (WA: 334/1941; spouse: Ada Teresa Jones; Divorced in WA 1945).
- He moved to “the only available house” in Port Wakefield in late 1951
- He was working as a designing engineer for the Hydraulic Equipment Co. Ltd. in Bute, South Australia, in 1952 (as per Trove advert in the ‘Tiser)
- He was fined for betting at the Henley Hotel, Henley Beach in 1953 (though I’d note that he is described there as a “grazier”?)
- His “light blue Holden sedan” was stolen in 1954
- He is in the WA Electoral Rolls in 1963 and 1968, at 280 Welshpool Road, Queens Park.
- He died in Western Australia in Feb 1976 (WA: 738/1976), and was buried in Karrakatta Cemetery.
Also living at the 280 Welshpool Road address was a Mary Lockyer. Angela suspects either that Geoffrey and Dorothy were divorced sometime between 1952 and 1963 (i.e. he subsequently remarried), or that ~conceivably~ Dorothy Jean changed her name to “Mary”. (Findagrave.com has a likely grave for Mary Lockyer, who died 2011 in Wembley Downs aged 90, and was also buried in Karrakatta Cemetery.)
Interesting! So… what do you all think?
Bravo Angela!
Wow! Kudos to Angela! Thank you very much as well! I would say it’s quite likely that that is ‘Doff’…I wonder if they had any children. A shame we can’t access all the records. It would be nice to find out if they stayed married or divorced. Perhaps the Mary could have been Geoffrey’s older sister, never married or something. I wonder if there are any other ways we could verify and find out more info and proof that it IS our Dorothy.
“Brick Broke-Up The Barmaid’s Romance”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75946357?searchTerm=%22Geoffrey%20Lockyer%22
Iris Rebecca Lawrence was married to Edward Alfred Maggs at the time. She does not appear to have gone on to marry Geoffrey…She married John William Whiteman in 1950.
Oops…in reading the links it would appear that Geoffrey was having a fling with a barmaid while married to Ada! Lol, quite a scene that must have been with a brick flying in revenge and Adam and cohorts fleeing ‘into the night’!
Congrats Angela!
Intriguing indeed! Thank you, Angela!
First of all, his divorce from Ada Theresa was on the ground of adultery with Iris Maggs, published on the Daily News, Perth, 14 Nov 1945. In 28 Sept 1945, Ada Theresa, along with her brother and brother-in-law crashed the window of a house at Lake-street at 1 am, with a brick, to catch Geoffrey and Iris in the act! (Mirror, Perth, 15 Dec 1945).
Before that, in 1938, at the age of 17, he was charged along with Peter Moffit Wyard (21) labourer, of Kalgoorlie, Edward Noel Rintel (32), labourer, of no fixed address, with having, in company, on January 20, broken and entered the warehouse of Lovell Brown in Egan-street, Kalgoorlie, and stolen articles of clothing, a suitcase and a tin cash box, containing 10/, valued in all at £16. (West Australian, Perth, 17 March 1938).
In Adelaide, 29 year old police officer Geoffrey Lockyer, was injured when he lost control of his motorcycle near Urrimbira Fauna Park. This was published in the Victor Harbour Times (SA), in 7 Feb 1979. Now is he Geoffrey’s son with Iris or Dorothy?
If Dorothy married this guy I think she has missed Carl at some point!
Lol, oh my gosh, this is rather silly—Geoffrey Lockyer “designing engineer of Bute” fined 5 pounds (and court costs) for throwing lighted fireworks from the balcony of a city hotel into the street!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130821383?searchTerm=Geoffrey%20Arthur%20Lockyer
Lol, Geoffrey sounds like as dumb a choice as Carl evidently was. IF Dorothy married this guy, what was she thinking!
There were a couple of indiscretions during Geoffrey’s brief military career (295 days, 23 active – in Australia, lots of “bush” postings): assuming control of army cycle and returning drunk, followed by AWL and stealing military property.
He was nowhere near Adelaide in November 1948 as he was applying for his missing army discharge certificate. He signed a statutory declaration on 27 November in Perenjori (350km north of Perth), his accompanying letter was dated 9 December 1948. (All from Geoffrey Lockyer’s NAA War Service file W12384).
If Dorothy married him in 1952 it would have to be after the absolute decree, right? Otherwise, she would have become a bigamist. That would be after July 21st. I don’t think she changed her name to Mary, because Mary died in WA in 2011 and Phyllis’ son’s narrative would be completely incorrect. I’ll bet she’s had ‘multiple marriages’ as Abbott said… If she married this crazy Geoffrey, I’ll bet she remarried or maybe just lived with a partner, if the hippie/LGBTQ colony is to be taken into account. The questions remain: under which name has she been buried or cremated? Abbott says Phyllis paid for her ‘funeral’… is this supposed to be a burial or a cremation ceremony?
Nice find!
Geoffrey Lockyer’s grandfather Alfred Brooks Lockyer and his descendants can be seen here:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lockyer-277
His father was Alfred Malcolm Brooks Lockyer (d 30 June 1925) who had 11 siblings. His mother was Olive Knapton.
For A M B Lockyer see: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31866488?searchTerm=%22olive%20lockyer%22 – note mention of “little Geoff”.
Also: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84054266?searchTerm=%22olive%20lockyer%22
Lockyer’s paternal great-grandfather and great-great grandfather were from Paulton and Clutton, Somerset, respectively, both just down the road from Bristol.
Advert citing G Lockyer of Bute from 1952:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47410093?searchTerm=%22lockyer%22%20bute
“BOILERMAKER – WELDER. A
position Is open tor a capable
and experienced man of sober
habits in the manufacture ot our
faim equipment at Bute. A per
manent position is available to
the right man. Accommodation
is available for single man. Apply
: in person or ring G. Lockyer.
Henley Hotel. L8228. Saturday
morning”
Advert citing G A Lockyer of Bute from 1953:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48290691?searchTerm=%22bute%20south%20australia%22%20lockyer
HYDRAULIC EQUIPMENT CO.
JUL LTD.,
BUTE. SOUTH AUSTRALIA.
require
IRONWORKER
for steel fabrication. Experience
in operating drilling machine
and oxy-acetylene plant.
Must be man of sober habits.
Accommodation for single man.
Apply in person. Saturday.
3-11 a.m.
G. A. LOCKYER,
C/o L. SMITHS LTD.,
112 Flinders st., Adel.”
From The Kadina and Wallaroo Times, 4 Oct 1951 :
“Geoff Lockyer’s new house and surroundings are taking shape in south Bute.”
Sorry, Statutory Declaration signed by Geoffrey Lockyer at Perenjori, indicating that his army discharge papers had been lost (accidentally burnt with other papers) on 22 November 1948 (not 27th). His accompanying letter was sent on 9 December 1948 again from Perenjori WA, which is around 350km north of Perth (there may have been one in the interim as he is complaining that he hasn’t received a reply).
All the makings of yet another double bunger, in that there appear to be at least two Geoffrey Athur Collyer contenders. For starters we have differing birth years and confusing martital links, same for job credentials not to mention both being from separate states. If there be need of more, it can be found in the hallowed grounds of West Terrace cemetery circa. 1951 but, I’ll leave that self serving face saver in obeyance for now. PS: unless I’m mistaken, our helpful informant from S.A. Geni., may (by name recognition) also have familial ties to Jerry Somerton’s West Terrace mortuary mate Bill [Sic] Cohen, both having expired unexpectedly (??) In the morning of very first day of summer1948.
It might pay Angela to give Beryl Schahinger a hoy and see what else she has in her books on Dorothy Jean Lockyer. Namely the members only ‘Hospital, Asylum & Lying-in Home admission’ record for 1955 then aged 35. It is one of only two online references for Dorothy Jean or Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer as such.
A few more spottings of Geoff Lockyer:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110401700?searchTerm=geoff%20lockyer
June 1953: Geoff Lockyer’s house and surroundings are taking shape in South Bute
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/258631895?searchTerm=geoff%20lockyer
February 1949: Geoff travels to Perth from Perenjori
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/259121996?searchTerm=geoff%20lockyer
September 1948: raging out at Julie’s birthday barbeque in Perenjori
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/148599812?searchTerm=geoff%20lockyer
1946: Work as a WA radio presenter?
Geoff Lockyear of McDowell’s Garage – it’s probably our Geoff as he was a driver for the AIF
Mary Spencer: what say we try a full circle return trip down the dusty D’Arcy trail and see if we might get back on course with my SA geni linked newlyweds Michael Peter & Dorothy Jean D’Arcy class of ’64. Now that we’ve got Beryl in our corner.
It looks as though Geoff Lockyer was the sometime proprietor of McDowell’s Garage in Perth:
(I haven’t included all of the car ads here and there are some later, when he is living in Perenjori and Bute).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/78266816?searchTerm=mcdowell%27s%20garage
1946 Tyres stolen from McDowell’s Garage – Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer, proprietor
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141337538?searchTerm=mcdowell%27s%20garage
1948 ad for 1927 Buick sedan – McDowell’s garage
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141337538?searchTerm=mcdowell%27s%20garage
November 1948 – McDowell’s Garage
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46322777?searchTerm=mcdowell%27s%20garage
Wanted tractor tyres – July 1947
Camera for sale – December 1944
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44990648?searchTerm=mcdowell%27s%20garage
One not so huge task of the utmost importance nonetheless, is we’ll need to confirm and soonest as to whether or not Angela’s Mr. Lockyer of W.A. is still managing McDowell’s garage post the ’52 wedding bells in S.A. This essential ingredient can prove his active role in the new turn of events as suggested or, alternately circumvent the need for setting off on yet another fruitless search for answers along a path that has no turning.
I think this is a very promising lead, as it would explain why Dorothy was living in Bute when she petitioned for divorce.
John Sanders: The info. from the Hospital Admissions Database on GenealogySA is as follows:
Dorothy Jean Lockyer.
Age: 35.
Status: Married.
Residence: Bute.
Occupation: Home Duties.
Religion: Church of England.
Admission: 17 Apr 1955 to 22 Apr 1955.
Hospital: Wallaroo.
Disease: Adhesions, Appendectomy.
Result: Recovered. Paying (non public admission).
Doctor: A. J. deBruin.
Also from the GenealogySA database: A stillborn male child of Geoffrey A. Lockyer (died 13 Dec 1951) was buried in West Terrace Cemetery on 17 December 1951. The grave location is: Road B Extension, Row 8W, grave 16 (looks like a public grave with many burials).
Search for Stillborn Lockyer:
https://aca.sa.gov.au/records/
Jo: your being able to prove that Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer had resided in the towns Perenjori W.A. and Bute S.A. in the relevant time periods should suffice to convince doubters that your man is one and the same. So let’s see it without delay and let’s get on with the job, shall we?
@ John Sanders
The two references I have found for Geoff Lockyer at McDowall’s Garage (Brisbane Street East Perth) are both from 1946. In 1948 it looks as though he is in Perenjori (barbequeing steaks, losing his army discharge papers and travelling to Perth…).
@ Steve H – nice work! What a whole lotta Lockyers! I wonder whether Kerry, who manages the wikitree info, knows anything about Dorothy Jean?
@Jo
Great minds think alike. I wonder if Nick or somebody else could contact Mr Kerry Lockyer. I’m not signed up on WikiTree. He’s a Melburnite I note.
There are some great WA locations involved with the Lockyers. Toodyay was (is?) another hippie hangout, but a bit posher. Roebourne is up in the Pilbara, the hottest place I have ever been to. Subiaco was one of the trendy parts of Perth. I have always felt an allegiance to WA, despite spending more than half my time in Oz elsewhere.
At least we have something new to get our teeth into. Maybe the wranglings can stop for a while (some hope). I note that the wowsers and the puritans are already involved in the hunt for Geoff, presumably the same people who have maligned Jessica, Prosper, Doff and even Carl himself, whose wife beating was certainly beyond the pale, but for whom I have a good deal of sympathy in other respects.
Not our Dorothy Lockyer but an amusing story involving a trapeze artist, bigamy, the Tivoli Theatre and Henley Beach!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245657517?searchTerm=%22ronald%20lockyer%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130244289?searchTerm=%22lockyer%22%20trapeze%20artist
Of course it was once speculated that Somerton Man was a trapeze artist (in a circus with a two headed calf!):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131241449?searchTerm=%22webb%22%20trapeze%20artist
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48923706?searchTerm=%22somerton%22%20trapeze%20artist
Steve H: whilst I can understand how you feel neglected and unwanted by some, hence your sound reasons for trying your best to cope with their harsh critiques. In as much as I’m more or less (mostly less) regarded in the same catagory), I still can nonetheless take critisism and give it back in kind to those inclined to show their ignorance and displeasure of my at times resentful attitude.
I’ve just come upon something that might just earn me a coveted ‘well spotted’ badge of achievment award that goes a step further than my recently ignored post on Dorothy having been institutionalised in 1955. Seems that she also gave birth to Geoffrey A. (sans Arthur) Lockyer’s still born child on 17th Dec. 1951 (S.A. Geni), her unamed bairn being subsequently interred at West Terrace cemetery.
Now for the clincher that, if my intuitive hunch has legs, may bring it all together in support of the fact based knowledge of Dorothy Webb’s hasty departure from her unhappy Melbourne abode in mid 1947 destined for the sunny clime of South Australia. According to the mostly reliable residential Sands & Mc. records, a Mrs. Lockyer (no iniitialls) was in residence at 50 Frederick St. New Parkside (Unley) from 1947 through 1949 inc. where the trail ends abruptly. That sounds pretty dambed good by my personal estimation which rarely lets me down..like heck!
Jo: you mentioned the all important Bute in addition to Perenjorie if I’m not mistaken!
John Sanders,
I think you probably meant this to be directed at someone else as it has nothing to do with anything I have posted.
Why would Dorothy use her ex-husband’s name to marry a second time after the divorce? It makes no sense.
@ Jo
If you read the whole thing in the link you have posted, you can find a Mr.Webb mentioned 4 times. Maybe she married a different Dorothy Jean Webb, after all…
February 1949: Geoff travels to Perth from Perenjori
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/258631895?searchTerm=geoff%20lockyer
Sorry, he, Geoffrey Arthur…
1 June 1951, G. A. Lockyer won the Australia birthday cake during Empire Day at Red Range, Glen Innes
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/182509938?searchTerm=%22mrs%20g%20a%20lockyer%22#
With ref to my earlier post concerning trapeze artist Ron Lockyer here’s an advert from 1939:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/97805353?searchTerm=%22Carlreno%22
Note one “Carlreno”, sensational jail breaker. Just don’t mention The Flying Gordons! Unfortunately Carlreno was a pom called Raymond who died in 1941, not Carl Webb:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/96294452?searchTerm=%22raymond%20Carlreno%22
@John Sanders
Unfortunately I’m a shrinking violet so just can’t manage to match your constant vituperations.
Would Dorothy be masquerading as Mrs Lockyer in 1947? Alright, Jo Harkness masqueraded as Sister Thomson for a while before the happy nuptials but still. I can see a “Baby Lockyer” for your 1951 date at West Terrace Cemetery without any more details.
Another Moseley Street link – this time to another Lockyer (from Chronicle (Adelaide) 24 Oct 1946):
“LOCKYER.—At Neutral Bay, Sydney,
Marion Joan Lockyer, youngest daughter
of the late Major Edmund Lockyer and
loved aunt of Marion Joan Troake, of 15
Moseley street, Glenelg. Aged 87 years.”
@ John S – Gould League Bird Lover’s badge for all your spotting I say!
Who are Michael Peter & Dorothy Jean D’Arcy class of ’64? It can be hard to follow the narrative without more details or links because we barbarians don’t have access to SA Geni…
Little baby Lockyer is another sad discovery.
And Dorothy at Unley – I’ll never say never…
@ Steve – I’d be up for a chat with Kerry if anyone can provide an intro. Your circus meanderings are kind of apt, St Johns Street Prahran, Charlie’s old workplace, is now the route to the Australia’s National Institute of Circus Arts, a stone’s throw away on Green Street! It’s a place I know quite well! Sadly only one quick trip to WA in all my years here! I need to spend less time on ciphermysteries and more earning some money so that I can see a bit more of the world! I contacted Mandala and they kindly replied – no Dorothys….
@ Pat – I noticed the Mr Webb too, but Dorothy Jean in Bute strengthens this being our Dorothy… She was still technically Dorothy Jean Webb even though divorced…
Whither to now punters all?
This is an exciting and interesting find, thanks Angela and Nick for sharing. He sounds like a bit of a, err, ratbag, lol, but perhaps just a lovable larrikin from back in the day …… he does sound interesting!
(way off point IMO, but….)
The Moseley address for Troake is “Majestic Mansions” – Proprieters F & A.
Not certain, but I think their parents are “Troke” (sic) 9 Brigalow Ave, Kensington Gardens.
This was just after Dorothy got her divorce. Geoff was still single, apparently…
Geoff & Doff, what a pair!
The Kadina and Wallaroo Times (SA : 1888 – 1954) Thusday 4 Oct 1951
Page 2
BUTE NEWS.
Mr Geoff Lockyer, of Hydraulic Equipment, is about to take up residence in Port Wakefield, in the only available house.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110175910?searchTerm=lockyer%20%22bute%22
This was the Gould League Bird Lovers badge I found and it wasn’t round.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/252005304?keyword=%22Gould%20League%22,%20badge
@ David Morgan
There were hundreds of them!
Members had to pledge to protect native birds:
“The Bird Lovers Pledge
1. I hereby promise that I will protect native birds and will not collect
their eggs.
2. I also promise that I will endeavour to prevent others from injuring
native birds and destroying their eggs”
Because guess what school children used to collect? I could imagine this being a thing in Camperdown, or semi rural Springvale for instance…. The badges and pledges were a smart way of doing citizenship and environmental education….
http://the-ans.com/library/Conf2012TH1.html
This badge is from NSW, but from the 1920s:
https://victorybadges.com/shop/gould-league-nsw/1927-gould-league-of-bird-lovers-nsw-member-badge-pin
The badges were originally for adults in the 1910s but were coveted by children, resulting in school children’s badges and certificates being introduced and taking off in a big way in the 1930s. JS may be correct and Charlie simply ahead of the curve…
Steve H….and how about Dorothy’s 1955 stretch in the funny farm or whatever institution she was being cared for. Of course my mention of her having taken digs in suburban Adelaide from 1947 had no bearing on events that went down during the period of her posdible tenure. I’ll just have to do better with my guess work.
David Morgan: try Gould League Badges on Australian Numismatic Society site for your round ones, probably solve at least one of your ongoing shortcomings.
Jo: still waiting patiently for confirmation details of the two Lockyer men from W.A. and S.A. having been identical, with proof according to your evenndated post of 7.24am. Don’t want to put undue pressure on you mind but it’s important.
Mary Spencer: sorry about that, here’s silly me confusing you with Poppins. I had initially addressed the S.A. link between a Dorothy Jean an M.P. D’Arcy to three ladies on the panel but deleted the others realising it was not part of their agenda.
Kerry Lockyer is 82, so if you want to contact him then you’d better be quick if it’s not already too late. Wikitree says I’m related through his wife’s line via my mum’s line.
As for Geoffrey, he died in Perth in 1972
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213529605/geoffrey-arthur-lockyer
https://portal.mcb.wa.gov.au/name-search/ns-detail/?id=0cccd1b9-ef1c-ec11-b6e7-00224814cbf0
Summary Of Record Information
First Name GEOFFREY ARTHUR Application Number
Last Name LOCKYER
Names are only recorded in capitals
MCB-228416-S5D7G7
KC00050532 (historic)
KARRAKATTA CEMETERY Cremation
Aged Years 57 Date of Death 19/02/1976
Suburb GREENWOOD
Ashes Request
MEMORIALISED AT KARRAKATTA CEMETERY
(please enquire for a specific location)
Memorial Type GARDEN OF REMEMBRANCE
Memorial Location
KARRAKATTA CEMETERY EC SECTION GARDEN 10 0026
Cemetery
Area
Garden, Wall or Path
Position
Hmm, while GAL doesn’t _seem_ to be in both WA and SA at the same time, his business/professional activities, some colourful, seem to chop and change a _lot_, for one individual. I wonder if the “SA Geoff” might have been from elsewhere (i.e. overseas or a third state), while “WA Geoff” was doing a stretch in Fremantle Prison.
As perhaps the only Perth resident present, I’ll consider any requests to pursue any “boots on ground” leads that arise, in the local archives etc.
The disused servo that used to be McDowell’s Garage, at 17– 19 Brisbane St, Perth ( -31.943881,115.869360 ) is still there, albeit disused for at least 25 years (iirc). It would never have been a prime location, although – every second Saturday afternoon in winter – there would have been a rush from the WAFL games across the road at Perth Oval (nowadays home ground of Perth Glory soccer team).
280 Welshpool Rd, Queen’s Park is now commercial building in an industrial area. However, it would probably have been semi-rural in the 1960s; possibly a likely address for the pied-á-terre of a moderately well-heeled Perenjori resident.
Furphy: certain character traits are common to the pair and until we hear futher from Jo, I’ll remain undecided. When Geoffrey Lockyer was fizzed for throwing crackers off the pub balcony on new years eve (day) 1952 at Port Augusta, he was with another reveller named Allan Howard Clarke. He hailed from Eastwood Tce. Eastwood near Parkside assylum and just a kilometer from the 1947/49 home of Mrs. Lockyer. Nothing sure on Allan Clarke; although one (no Howard) of 1917 vintage is buried at Millicent with wife Dorothy, memorial plate having letters W.A. in one corner and a big Snapper in t’other. You’ll recall my mention of a deceased child to G.A. L. and so worth mention that it occurred only a month before the fun and frivolity at Port Augusta.
Nick – I posted something on this thread yesterday and it didn’t appear on the comments. Did you get it?
Misca: all I can see from you is “Congratulations Angela” from Nov 8, nothing since.
misca: brand loyalty must be accompanied by certain degree of discretion, lump it or leave it!
Nick – I have now tried to repost information from Angela three times. Did you get it?
misca: nothing here, email me & I’ll see if I can sort it out – nickpelling at nickpelling dot com
How’s the post on Derek’s FB page showing lawyers looking for Carl’s whereabouts in 1958 to receive an inheritance. “Carl Webb – formerly of Cottesloe Wester Australia – Electrician”. Sounds like the fam bam knew where he went. I figured that this is the best spot for it seeing there’s a WA connection
From Angela:
GenealogySA Hospital Admissions database:
Dorothy Jean Lockyer.
Age: 35.
Status: Married.
Residence: Bute.
Occupation: Home Duties.
Religion: Church of England.
Admission: 17 Apr 1955 to 22 Apr 1955.
Disease: Adhesions, Appendectomy.
Doctor: A. J. deBruin.
Result: Recovered; Paying (non-Public admission).
So, Dorothy Jean Lockyer was born circa 1920, just like Dorothy Jean Robertson.
Over on Derek’s Facebook page someone (Lachlan Kelly) has just posted a VERY interesting link from The Age Newspaper 22 Oct 1958: from a solicitor named H H Hoare:
“CARL WEBB, formerly of Cottesloe, Western Australia, Electrician,.- Would he or anyone knowing of his whereabouts or death write to the undersigned, who has information of benefit to Carl Webb in connection with the estate of his sister, Gladys May Scott.”
GO WA! I once lived in Mosman Park, adjacent to Cottesloe and knew the area well. Derek has already responded.
Misca: thought I broke the news on Dorothy Lockyer’s age and hospitalisation already, sorry you missed the opportunity. Don’t worry nobody took up their cudgels to demand proof. End of the day nothing gained or lost by not getting through to CM. Hope you’re not having similar frustrations where your at.
GenealogySA South Australian Cemeteries database:
Stillborn male child of Geoffrey A. Lockyer.
Date of death: 13 Dec 1951.
Cemetery: West Terrace.
Additional info from aca.sa.gov.au: Buried on 17 Dec 1951.
Location: Road B Extension, Row 8W, grave 16 (a public grave with many burials).
Was this Dorothy’s child? Did she have any more children with Geoffrey?
The above information is from Angela. She has been trying to post but her comments are not going through.
……said that too misca. My you are behind the times. Where’ve you been. Did you try the 70 Frederick St. New Parkside address for Mrs. Lockyer yet. Might be some leftovers if you’re not picky in the origins.
@John Sanders
If you stopped wrapping your (sometimes excellent) findings in obfuscation and mystery and gave us line, page and chapter, more of us might twig to what you are actually saying. As it is, it is as though you hide secret messages in a small fob pocket, Tamam Shud like – and I haven’t got a pair of tweezers.
@milongal
Lighten up mate, for Gawd’s sake! Colonel Sanders and I have a little competition to see who can find the most links to Moseley Street. Not to be taken seriously by the those who take comments oh so literally or the merely curious. You and others are making delicate flowers like John and myself frightened to post anything.
Nick –
I’m happy we sorted out that both Angela’s and my comments were all in your spam folder. Disappearing posts is not something I had seen here before and it was a bit disconcerting.
Clarifying for others – If you make repeated attempts to post within a short time frame, they get triggered as spam.
Thanks for un-spamming Angela’s original comment on November 9th.
G Lockyer, mchnc, listed in Sands & McD, SA Country Section – Bute:
Up to1963 (see p 679/1811). Not listed in ’64 or ’65.
A 1963 funeral at Karrakatta:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202724187?searchTerm=bute%20g%20lockyer
Pall-bearers at the funeral were W. Slater, K. Slater, R. Pitman, A. Brennan, G. Lockyer, J. Silenger, J. Ryan and C. Eaton.
A 1954 fire on Mr G. Lockyer’s property:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253459137?searchTerm=goomalling%20g%20lockyer
Just south of the town a fire broke out on the property of Mr. G. Lockyer. This fire was mainly confined to timber country and was soon brought under control, when the volunteers left to combat the other fires which had also sprung up. Mr. Lockyer continued to patrol the area and it was just as well he did, too, for the fire broke out again in the early hours of the morning, necessitating tired volunteers, who had only been in bed an hour or so, being called out again. Fortunately the fire was again quickly brought under control.
17 May 1951 congratulations to the Lockyers on the birth of their daughter (alas):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/258535931?searchTerm=goomalling%20g%20lockyer
Congratulations are extended to the following Goomalling couples on the recent arrival of small daughters: Mr. and Mrs. N. M. Clancy, Mr. and Mrs. R. N. Eaton and Mr. and Mrs. G. Lockyer. Mothers and babies are doing well in all cases, so we understand.
29 Mar 1951: Back from Geraldton
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253450142?searchTerm=goomalling%20g%20lockyer
Back in Goomalling again after a period at Geraldton, during which they combined business and pleasure, are Mr. and Mrs. G. Lockyer and Mr. R. Williams.
22 Feb 1951: leaving for Geraldton with their small son
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253449705?searchTerm=goomalling%20g%20lockyer
There has been a general exodus from Goomalling over the last 10 days or so of people on holiday bent. Among those who have left during that period are Mr. and Mrs. G. Lockyer and small son, …
18 Aug 1949: son and heir
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253450773?searchTerm=goomalling%20g%20lockyer
Son and Heir — Congratulations are extended to Mr and Mrs G. Lockyer of Goomalling, on the recent arrival of a son and heir.
So, like Furphy, I’m beginning to see more than one Lockyer at large…the Goonmalling G Lockyer doesn’t fit the picture…
Perenjori Geoff is definitely AIF Geoff
Garage Geoff? Could be another man named Geoffrey Arthur?
Bute Geoff – definitely with Doff… we need to connect him back to Perenjori…I do wonder how he seems to have become an engineer… his brief army career wouldn’t really put him at the front of the line for the Commonwealth Reconstruction Training Scheme, which trained thousands of men in the post war period.
The AIF file says that Geoff had black hair and a from memory a small facial scar… I think we could be looking for a bloke who looks a bit like Ross Poldark…(sorry for the BBC cultural reference here…, though both versions of Ross were rather dashing!).
Nick –
“Pall-bearers at the funeral were W. Slater, K. Slater, R. Pitman, A. Brennan, G. Lockyer, J. Silenger, J. Ryan and C. Eaton.”
Alexander Joseph Fraser (1893-1963)
His father was Hugh Fraser
His mother was a Lockyer. Elizabeth May Lockyer.
Nick
How can G Lockyer have been living in Goomalling AND Bute in 1954?
Steve H: that’s the question I was trying to telepathically project, glad to see the experiment worked. 😁
If Geoff is a mechanic, trained mechanical engineer, he could be Bute Geoff & Garage Geoff & mechanic Geoff… if that makes sense… even grazier Geoff…
And bravo Lachlan Kelly – he found Carl in Cottesloe!
So, unfortunately, we have two G A Lockyer’s possibly floating around in the same areas…
There is a Gerard Arnold Lockyer (1919-1996) who married a Nancy Wood (1927- 2012).
They married in 1948 and had many children. Possibly four girls and two boys.
His sister married a Slater.
He died at Chatham Farm, Goomalling.
LOCKYER -On November 11, 1946, at Northam, Elizabeth Catherine (Edith),
widow of the late Arnold Brooks Lockyer, of Chatham Farm, Goomalling; loving
mother of Eva (Mrs. T. J. Bowen), Pat (Mrs. W. Slater) and Gerard; aged 70
years. RI.P.
Steve H –
You’re correct! There are two G A Lockyer’s!
Gerard:
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/560070:60528?ssrc=pt&tid=8372417&pid=1146297709
Misca: this kind of things bedevils just about every online family tree, so it shouldn’t be a big surprise, e.g. the Karrakatta stuff would seem to be Gerard rather than Geoffrey etc.
Nick –
Of course. Agreed. Not particularly surprising.
Jo was right. Gerard was quite dashing when he was young.
Alfred Brooks Lockyer (1850-1908), Geoffrey’s grandfather also died Chatham Farm, Goomalling:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/187913629/alfred-brooks-lockyer?_gl=1*1pvdkr6*_ga*NjM2OTk3NzM0LjE2NjE3MTM4OTI.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2ODExMDMyOS4yODMuMS4xNjY4MTE0NzE0LjUzLjAuMA..
misca: sure I mentioned the twp Lockyers quite a while back, like 4.51am day before yesterday which was as I recall day one of this weird thread where both the informant Angela and our moderator didn’t spot the obvious ID name trap.
A courtly reminder that to-day is Armistice day ( Vets. Day US of A) for those in need of the reminder to observe the 11/11 minute’s silence for our Glorious dead.
@Lurch and @Steve, what a magnificent find by Lachlan Kelly, just went and had a look, thanks for sharing it here …. now that’s a lead, hey! Speculation – Carl travelled down from Cottlesloe to Adelaide by train, decides to see some sights, gets a number to buy a car as he decides to motor the rest of the way to Melbourne for the summer holidays and Christmas with his family – goes to check out one of Prosper’s cars …. was he selling cars then from Mosley Street then, wait, I better check, lol, got bit excited with my creative writing. story here. Carl in WA, how completely interesting. Cheers
A ref to Gerard Lockyer aka Gerald (he is spelt as that in some articles) – great-great grandson of Thomas who came from Somerset (see my earlier posting above for the Lockyer family tree) at Goomalling:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253562900?searchTerm=%22george%20lockyer%22
Young Gerald Lockyer of Goomalling on the razzle:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/260202625?searchTerm=%22gerald%20lockyer%22
One of poor old Gerald’s nuts flew off and hit him in the eye (from The Weekly Gazette (Goomalling, WA) 12 Sep 1941
“Early last Monday morning Mr. Gerald Lockyer, truck driver for the
works gang of the Goomaliing Road Board, met with a painful accident
while changing the body of his truck to a tip body. He was using a heavy
spanner on a nut when the bolt broke and either the nut or the spanner
hit him in the eye. The injury was not as serious as was at first thought.”
Gerald/Gerard was a bit accident prone- ‘Leg Broken’ (and his parents had both just died):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253461463?searchTerm=%22gerard%20lockyer%22
He married in 1948:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253549588?searchTerm=%22gerard%20lockyer%22
I note from misca’s post that Gerard was buried at Goomalling Cemetery, not Karrakatta!
Geoffrey was the son of Alfred Malcolm Brooks Lockyer (19 Jun 1889 – 30 Jun 1925), so is from the same family. Gerard was the son of Alfred’s brother Arnold Brooks Lockyer (28 Dec 1875 – 03 Oct 1946). Their pa was Alfred Brooks Lockyer (8 Jun 1850 – 03 Aug 1908).
From WikiTree:
” The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 – 1954) Monday 7 October 1946
Arnold Brooks Lockyer, of Chatham Farm, Goomalling, beloved husband of Edith and fond father of Eva (Mrs. J. Bowen), Pat (Mrs. W. G. Slater) and Gerard: aged 72 years.
In loving memory of Arnold Brooks Lockyer, loved husband of Edith, fond father of Eva, Patricia & Gerard. Born 28th Dec 1875, died 3rd Oct 1946.”
So Geoff and Gerard were first cousins.
If Carl did live in Cottesloe I wonder if he was in the habit of lying on the beach in the evening to smoke a ciggie?
Someone must have ancestry to stop all this playing about:
https://www.ancestry.com/search/?name=Geoffrey+Arthur_Lockyer&birth=1918_Perth-Western+Australia-Australia&death=1976_Greenwood-Western+Australia-Australia&father=Alfred+Malcolm+Brooks_Lockyer&gender=m&marriage=1941_Western+Australia-Australia&mother=Olive+Lilly_Knapton&spouse=Ada+Teresa_Jones&types=r&fbclid=IwAR3iZwhuBQiCoK5DibrbtsiEZaeawy_WpLnA8_nyXVudAawYfXnHBUcoY-k
Also links on Familysearch:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LVZS-5QC?fbclid=IwAR3CB_2JImu4FH8W6HfN5XsAvyD4FxwvYbH9JpPKd45mLKqP50AZpjOKNF0
Thanks to Sandra P. van Tongeren!
Geraldton Guardian and Express (WA : 1929 – 1947) Tue 4 nov 1947
Page 3
RECENT AIR TRAVELLERS
RECENT AIR TRAVELLERS
The following passengers travelled
to and from Geraldton by the air ser
vice of the MacRobertson-Miller Avia
tion Company Limited during the past
few days: —
Perth to Geraldton (Sunday) — Messrs
A. Horan, M. Vickerman and Mrs. M.
Vickerman.
Geraldton to Fitzroy (Sunday) — Mr.
F. Robinson.
Geraldton to Perth (Sunday) — Messrs
C. Burnett and D. Beaton, Mesdames
McLean and M. Glasson.
Perth to Geraldton (Monday) — Mr.
J. Woods and Miss N. Cain.
Geraldton to Perth (Monday)— Messrs
P. Briers, C. WEBB, C. Box and Mrs. H.
Soranson.
Perth to Geraldton (Tuesday) —
Messrs. E. Newman, L. Taplin and D.
Beaton.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/67838113
Geraldton Guardian (WA : 1948 – 1950) Sat 11 set 1948
Page 1
People on the Move
People on the Move
Midland Omnibus Service
PASSENGERS BY ROAD
The following are the passengers
who travelled by the bus of the Mid
land Railway Company between Perth
and Geraldton during the past three
days : —
From Perth (Thursday) — Messrs. K.
R. Cockman, C. Keyser, R. Kidson, N.
Pearce, W. .Sutherland, J. Scott and E.
Taylor, Mesdames K. R. Cockman, C.
Keyser, F. Downs, R. Short, J. Scott,
A. Dawson, M. Niven and W. Sutherland
and Miss. H. Kinnane.
From Geraldton (Friday) — Messrs.
H. Cornish, A. E. Anderson, T. Morris,
K. Minchin, A. J. Nelson, R.
Strano, H. McNeill, K. Lodge, B. J.
Caston, B. Sander, J. R. Clark, H.
Dempster, J. Bagley and Captain
Airey, Mesdames W. Stroud, J. Bagley,
A. E. Anderson, D. W. Lavater, P.
Hopkins, K. Minchin, R. Strano and C.
Smith, Misses G. Lavater, A. Lavater,
N. Lavater, J. Smith and E. Walker
and Master A. Hopkins.
From Perth (Friday) — Messrs. C.
Prater, W. Hackfath, C. Willett, G.
Gibson, G. Sharpe, J. McKncrow, J.
Fernley, J. Cartwright, R. Robinson,
W. Brockway, L. Paparella, D. Brand,
C. Trainer, F. Barnes, W. Boys, F.
McKay, H. McDonald and Capt. J.
Airy, Mesdames A. Evans, A. Willett,
J. Newman, G. Gibson, G- Sharpe, A.
Burtill, L. Reany, C. Eccles, C. WEBB,
J. Airy, E. Tulip, G. Barnes and R.
Pearce, Misses R. Evans and M. Smith,
Masters A. Tyfer, W. Wilson and R.
Cardell.
From Geraldton (Saturday) — Messrs.
A. J. Gilchrist, K. Ward, W. Lake, I.
Skipworth, R. W. Raymond, P. H.
Croft, D. O’Neill, J. Werndley, J.
Clarke, W. Neale, P. Glaskin, A. Scott,
J. Clark and E. Chetwynd, Mesdames
.r. Clark, E. Chetwynd, F. Clarke, W
Neale, T. Plester, A. J. Gilchrist, R.
Ward, J. Wilson, J. Werndley, A. Watson
and G. C. Cole, Misses J. Ward,
M. Hancock, I. Davidson, B. Thompson,
L. Thompson, A. Broad and W. O’Grady.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/67842416
Kalgoorlie Miner (WA : 1895 – 1954) Mon 17 Feb 1947
Page 3
Train Passengers
Train Passengers
ARRIVALS FROM EASTERN
STATES
The following passengers arrived
In Kalgoorlie by the transAustra
lian train from the Eastern States
yesterday:—
For Kalgoorlie: Misses J. Mar
tin, D. Clarz, Morgan and M. God
ridge; Mesdames L. Glasson, J.
? Simmons, K. Simmons, W. Sim
i-ions, E. Hunter, R. Box. M. Ful
litt, A Rodda A. Rowe and R.
Heanzon: Messrs. L. Tonkin, W.
Glasson, L. Rimons, E. Hunter, P.
Hyer, F. Box. E. Leslie, A. Hawkes,
F. I . Henyvern i.nd Master G. Gil
lett.
For Perth: Misses R. Millar,
M. Conway, L Butler, M. Lee, A.
DEmmons,’ O Hamilton, K. 0*Lough
., lin, M. O’Loughlin, M. Bouwer, J.
/Gale G. Morris, G. Earp, N. Hyde,
U. Payne, A. Craig, B. Mclntyre
F. Nichols, G. Hunter and C. and
A. Cohen; Mesdames M. Dornwell,
\ M.’ Armstrong, S Cornish, M. Jor
fcensen, N. Jorgensen, S. Bowman,
?. _ m- Bowman, E. Armstrong, B.
v. Armstrong, R. Carter, A. Haslem,
M. MacGowen, B. McKiggen, D.
McKiggen, I. McKiggen, L. Cutler,
(A. MacKenzie, H. Howell, A.
Payne, C. Bostock, E. A. McNea,
N. Bostock L. Spittka, V. Hogan,
K. Dunstan, J. Allen and child, C.
Polling, O. M. Lee, C. Carter, W..
tLeray, M. Walkerden, I. Easton, M.
Ebel, S. Fergert, E. Ellis, R.
?Browne, C. WEBB. H. L. White
land child. J. Taylor, D. McKenzie,
!A. H. Williams, J. M. Gurett, E.
\ Guthrie, L. Jacka, L. Black, M. E.
Earl, W. R. Bird, L. Hadow, Abor
bam, V. Darcy, C. Trigg, L. A.
Howes, A. Hunter, F. Thomas, T.
P. Hanrahan and boy and H.
Cohen; Messrs. S. Cornish, G.
Carter, C. Smith, R. Dodd, J’. Arm
fctrong, J. Tanner, E. Oxley, A. Ox
Jey, C. Lee, W. Leray, K. McGig
gon. Manjoids, J. P. Browne, P.
Jorgenson, R. Bowman, S. Garrett,
R. Carter, G. Shirley, C. McNea,
T. Polling, J. Polling, H. Low, Laig
Pao, C. Carter, M. Bowyer, R.
Mitchell, H. L. White, G. J. Evatt,
H. H. Williams, J. R. Fixter, H.
Harvey, D. G. Garey, J. Tankard,
F. Langford, K. Jacka, B. Peddy,
S. Downer, W. D Robertson, H.
Cohen, Flight-Sergeant Glittos,
Sergeant Carey and Master Payne.
Kalgoorlie Miner (WA : 1895 – 1954) Fri 31 Oct 1947
Page 1
Trans Passengers
Traqs Passengers
ARRIVING TO-DAY
The following passengers will
arrive in Kalgoorlie to-day by the
trans-Australian train from the
Eastern States: —
For Kalgoorlie :. Miss E. Queen;
Mesdames C. H. Hurt and M.
Boseley; Messrs. A. D. Maclean,
H. H. Allen and the Rev. C. H.
Hunt.
For Perth: Misses J. Goss, E. F.
Williams, M. Anderson, V. North
over, N. Brown, A. Suffort, M. J.
Bates,W. Johnson, B. Wishart, J.
Richards, E. Williams, W. Carr,
N. Douglas, R. Oniong. R. Stuart,
D. Stuart, D. Shaw and R. Arm
strong; Mesdames. N. Goss. W. D.
Sullivan, J. M. Reigen, J. Reigen,
B. J. Roxby, J. A. Marshall, J. P.
Walters, J. P. Carter. A. Dyke, E.
Wood E. Davidson, M. Huxtable,
C. Merryfield, J. N. McAilp, E. L.
Alexander, E. Hicks, W. Meyes,
W. Lees, M. Shaw, T. King, F.
Willett, D. Gadsden. W. Wishart,
L. Richards, J. McKay, W. Arm
strong. M; Ferguson, M. Williams,
E. Shorn, E. Okely, F. Layter and
D. Evans; Messrs. P. Goss, W. D.
Sullivan, J. M. Hextall, J. T.
Allen, A. B. Bale, J. Purvis. E.
Huck, B. J. Roxby, J. P. Walters,
J. P. Carter, A. Dyke, J. S: Col
quhorn, K. W. Clifford, W. ? E.
Woodward. H. R. Golding, N. H.
Perry, V. F. Box, J. N. McAilp,
E. Hicks, A. H: Odlimm, E. L.
Palmer. ‘ W. Myfs, S. Myfs, A.
Shaw, A. Meadowcraft, J. Leaven
worth, R. Tolloway, F. Willett, H.
Deer, W. Armstrong, T. Arm
strong, R. Cheeser, C. Ferguson,
W. Shaw, M. Davis. T. King, W.
Lees, J. Barney, E. Okelt, C. WEBB,
A. Hill and R. Trump.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95627502?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FK%2Ftitle%2F342%2F1947%2F10%2F31%2Fpage%2F9065216%2Farticle%2F95627502
So, Lachlan Kelly has discovered, via the Age 1958, that Charlie probably went to live and work in Cottesloe, near Freemantle, WA.
(JS – Gould League Bird Lovers’ Badge warranted here for sure?)
There was a lively street betting scene down on Webb Street, Cottesloe, in 1948:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46893943?searchTerm=webb%20cottesloe
March 1948: Street bettors, fifteen men fined
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46268812?searchTerm=webb%20cottesloe
And a month later, sixteen men fined
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46896964?searchTerm=webb%20cottesloe
Two men imprisoned for street betting, others fined
Did poor Charlie get caught up in a Wake in Fright scenario, gambling his earnings away? (Sorry, Australian cultural reference here – to the 1971 film, loosely based on and filmed in Broken Hill)
Two other things that come to mind are:
One:
Maybe those claims that the Somerton Man was a “nit picker” (ie security and look out man), back in the Baccarat dens of Melbourne weren’t so far off the money…. (not being much of a gambling girl myself, more of an occasional “punter”). The “nitpicker” apparently worked for around 10 weeks a few years prior to 1948, then abruptly disappeared…Nick has posted on this in the past.
Two:
Past talk of the merchant navy and stencilling equipment may not have been too far off the mark either. Nearby Freemantle was/is a very busy port. It was notorious in the British merchant navy in the post war period as a place to jump ship and begin a new life! (I’ve posted before about my cousins’ father doing so back in the early 1960s…. they found him many decades later, in Coff’s Harbour…).
Remembrances today for those lost through war and its aftermath, including Roy Webb.
Sorry, forgot to add to previous post (not last post!):
– Kerry Lockyer doesn’t have any info on Geoffrey or Doff. I will send him selected links for his family history.
Stanley Charles Webb at Albion st, Cottesloe, Carpenter
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/80792868?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FD%2Ftitle%2F275%2F1948%2F03%2F24%2Fpage%2F7777520%2Farticle%2F80792868
Stanley Charles Webb at Albion st, Cottesloe, Carpenter
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/80792868?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FD%2Ftitle%2F275%2F1948%2F03%2F24%2Fpage%2F7777520%2Farticle%2F80792868
I’m sure someone on here has already mentioned this but, just in case, I thought I would note that:
Geoffrey had a sister Jocelyne Alma Lockyer who was born in 1923 just shortly before her father’s death in 1925. She married Percy Ernest Fogarty in 1944. In 1954, they lived with Percy’s father in Swan. Percy was a “cartage contractor”. There’s lots on trove if you search him out. (Cricket successes when he was younger, Trips to Perth, taking up residence in Perenjori, arrest for stealing petrol, fined for overloading a truck etc…)
Jocelyne died very young. She was 43. She is buried here:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213698561/joycelyn-alma-fogarty?_gl=1*ao5lph*_ga*NjM2OTk3NzM0LjE2NjE3MTM4OTI.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2ODExMDMyOS4yODMuMS4xNjY4MTMzNTY3LjQ2LjAuMA..
Percy Ernest died in 1976 and is buried in the same cemetery:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213530332/percy-ernest-fogarty?_gl=1*1qqx06j*_ga*NjM2OTk3NzM0LjE2NjE3MTM4OTI.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2ODExMDMyOS4yODMuMS4xNjY4MTMzNjE2LjU3LjAuMA..
Geoffrey’s mother Olive Lily had at least two more children with a certain Edward Clement Francis. (Geoffrey and Jocelyne’s half siblings). Patricia Francis (1927-1997) and a son (haven’t managed to find much information on him yet).
Edward had previously married Violet Barnett in England and had two children with her there. She does everything she can to find him (see trove)…He has an NAA file that also references this UK marriage.
See https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46909618?SearchTerm=Webb%2C Cottesloe
Webb, 3 Wentworth St, Cottesloe.
Only problem is that on 23 Oct 1948 & 22 Dec 1948 adverts from same property (no name).
Joe Webb was at 3 Wentworth St!
@ Pat
I’m not sure about February Kalgoorlie Miner (WA : 1895 – 1954) MON 17 FEB 1947
Page 3
Train Passengers
ARRIVALS FROM EASTERN
STATES
The following passengers arrived
In Kalgoorlie by the transAustra
lian train from the Eastern States
yesterday:—
For Perth: Misses R. Millar,
M. Conway, L Butler, M. Lee, A.
DEmmons,’ O Hamilton, K. 0*Lough
., lin, M. O’Loughlin, M. Bouwer, J.
/Gale G. Morris, G. Earp, N. Hyde,
U. Payne, A. Craig, B. Mclntyre
F. Nichols, G. Hunter and C. and
A. Cohen; Mesdames M. Dornwell,
\ M.’ Armstrong, S Cornish, M. Jor
fcensen, N. Jorgensen, S. Bowman,
?. _ m- Bowman, E. Armstrong, B.
v. Armstrong, R. Carter, A. Haslem,
M. MacGowen, B. McKiggen, D.
McKiggen, I. McKiggen, L. Cutler,
(A. MacKenzie, H. Howell, A.
Payne, C. Bostock, E. A. McNea,
N. Bostock L. Spittka, V. Hogan,
K. Dunstan, J. Allen and child, C.
Polling, O. M. Lee, C. Carter, W..
tLeray, M. Walkerden, I. Easton, M.
Ebel, S. Fergert, E. Ellis, R.
?Browne, C. WEBB. H. L. White
According to the lawyer’s Divorce Affidavit Dorothy’s summons for maintenance was served on Charlie at the Red Point Tool Company in Prahran in April 1947 and awarded on 1 May (but unfulfilled by June). I’m assuming that he was there to receive it? Perhaps not….
Well spotted Sandra and Pat!
David Morgan –
What do you mean “all this playing about”? What are you looking for specifically?
Steve H – Gerard is from the same tree and it’s a big one. Alfred Brooks Lockyer alone had at least 11 children. There were a lot of first cousins. The tree is huge and difficult to really get your head around. Suffice it to say, they worked hard and played hard.
Jo – Kerry Lockyer – Does he/she have a wiki? Can you post a link for them?
So, in 1951, when Dorothy was looking for her husband (for divorce proceedings), the only sibling that responds is Doris May. She states that she hasn’t seen him for 3-4 years. (Which would be correct if SM is Charles.)
She dies in 1955 and three years after that, the solicitor tending to her estate posts “formerly of Cotteloe” etc… That’s in 1958. 10 years after he went missing and presumably died? The lawyer is still trying to settle her last wishes.
Is that where he told his sister he had gone in the “missing” years? Why would he go/tell her that he is there?
Her will would be an excellent document to find.
@ Misca – Kerry Lockyer manages the Lockyer wikitree entries: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lockyer-277
@ Misca
I am on a wait list to view the Glady’s Scott’s will! It has already been ordered by “other users” at the PROV!!
@misca
I posted this above, but here it is again. Click on Descendants of Thomas Lockyer to see the family tree. Thomas came from Paulton in Somerset which is about fifteen miles down the road from H Towers here in Bristol.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lockyer-278
@Jo
I lived in Mosman Park, next to Cottesloe for about three months in early ’82. The Fremantle bus, which I used from town, went past Karrakatta Cemetery (it was a huge bendy-bus, but I believe they have reopened the train line to Fremantle again now). From UWA you caught a different bus along the Stirling Highway. Often I would spend the journey chatting to one of the late, great anthropologist couple the Berndts, who lived in Peppermint Grove. Ronald was of SA German stock, wore lederhosen, and constantly smoked a huge German style pipe – he had baccy/sweat stains all over his clothes. Catherine was even more eccentric!
I note on your mate Peter Bowes’ site that Clive has found a Mrs D J Robertson living in Peppermint Grove in 1947 – she is listed as living at 45 Keane St, Peppermint Grove, Cottesloe, WA. The area, one of Perth’s very poshest, is, like Cottesloe, just north of Mosman Park. The infamous Claremont Murders also occurred in the same general area.
I have been spending too much time on this affair again! I have to try and read more of my current book, ‘Painting Culture’ by Fred Myers, which is a history and analysis of the commercialisation of the “dot” Papunya paintings (Fred worked there from the ’70s on) which I got at a good price second hand from the US of A a while back. Blast my eyes, I got the offer of a trip to Papunya with the then community art adviser Daphne Williams who I interviewed in her office in Alice Springs in 1983 (on the same day as the Inland Motel massacre at Uluru which I avoided by a few hours having spent the previous night there), but the community refused me a permit to visit (a common story in those days). That b*****d Bruce Chatwin got permission to go there (or perhaps he just waltzed in) around the same time, and then “painted” Daphne as an exploitative ogre in ‘Songlines’, which was far from the truth.
Thanks Jo!
A “wait list”? Oh my. Good luck!
Just in case it hasn’t been mentioned before and its really just another SM coincidence but an American steamer named the “Carl Zachary Webb” was in docked in Fremantle (just a 4 minute drive from Cottesloe) in 1948. What are the chances!!
John Sanders: to be fair, I did flag the “grazier” bit for exactly that reason, but I was trying not to get in the way of what I thought would be an interesting thread. 🙂
Nick Pelling: a note of extreme caution. Please observe that the name Gordon Cramer has been tauted on another site as being behind this latest Cottesloe side show. Not to mention other known associates who seem to be more exuberant in their efforts to perpetuate this current weird,wayward and most unconvincing threadline.
John Sanders: the Cottesloe connection seems broadly sensible to me, but it’s extremely early (and evidence-light) days there. The Lockyer/Bute thread is solidifying nicely, though. 🙂
@ misca
You are confusing the sisters…
“So, in 1951, when Dorothy was looking for her husband (for divorce proceedings), the only sibling that responds is Doris May. She states that she hasn’t seen him for 3-4 years. (Which would be correct if SM is Charles.)
She dies in 1955 and three years after that, the solicitor tending to her estate posts “formerly of Cotteloe” etc… That’s in 1958. 10 years after he went missing and presumably died? The lawyer is still trying to settle her last wishes.”
It’s Gladys May’s solicitor, not Doris Maud’s, looking for C.Webb… Doris was the one who phoned Doff’s solicitor and didn’t know Carl’s whereabouts. No response from Gladys/Leslie Scott. By the way, do you know what happened to Leslie, after Gladys died? Angela has posted the info of his second wife, but nothing on children.
The surge of interest in a W.A. connection as consequence of input by front man Lachlan Kelly, although conceived by Gordon C. Cramer on the Derek Abbott face saver page is well rooted (like gullible punters). Aside from that it be noted that the original Age newspaper source dated October 1958 has it’s basis a request for Carl Webb of Cottesloe to get in for his share of sister Glady’s money. If 1958 was also when the second inquest was to re-convene one might conceive that the ad may just have easily been placed to indicate that Carl was by then already known by some to be the unidentified man from Somerton 1948.
Pat –
You’re absolutely right, I mixed them up. Sorry to cause unnecessary confusion.
I suppose in some ways though, it’s essentially the same message. Even ten years on, the family did not seem to know where he was.
Not confirmed but I have two potential children for Gladys and Leslie. One is a James Pearce Scott and the other is Patrick Scott.
James Pearce can be found through electoral roles and a 1942 marriage record to… (you won’t believe this Pat)…Gladys Mae Nancarrow.
Pat –
Leslie’s second wife was Marjorie Constance Bee. She was married before she married Leslie:
Name Marj Constance Bee
Gender Female
Marriage Registration Year 1939
Marriage Registration Place Victoria, Australia
Spouse Chas Matthew Chatterton
Reference Number 5925)
She is listed as a chiropodist in both a 1949 and a 1954 electoral roll.
Well I guess it’s now confirmed. There were no children for Gladys and Leslie according to his death certificate.
Apart from GC having used the Armistice day commemoration to pursue his self serving promotion for tiny writing by purposely craming all 101 Australian VC winners into an image of the medal itself… It is also observed that whilst being heavily committed to involvement in Abbott Face Book trending news, his own BS site is content to put up tired old posts on the Lawson generated prestine skull cavity farce and the hardly newsworthy Teschler Hay bank notes etc…..Anybody out there spot the plot yet?
@ misca
I knew you would be looking into the Scotts, well done! Gladys Mae, wow!
The Lockyer ancestors were involved in some pretty salacious doings, but the only point is to what happened to Dorothy Webb. There’s no indication that she ever had a Kidd with Carl, and even if we find living descendants of Dorothy and Geoffrey, it would still be highly unlikely that they ever heard Dorothy make an confession about Carl’s demise IMO. So you can only hope I’m wrong on that.
But geeze, that ancestor of Geoffrey’s was surely some mad woman.
https://dodgyperth.com/tag/keziah-lockyer/
https://www.geni.com/people/Keziah-Lockyer-Free-Settler-Hooghly-1830/6000000188804108850
There’s a few sad stories amongst his tree too.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lockyer-919
John Sanders
You do like your conspiracy theories old chap. I doubt if this Lachlan fellow is part of the Cramer Gang. Is Cramer WA based? He HAS been commenting on DA’s Facebook page about “The Cottesloe Connection” (a possible film title there?) but is still peddling his inane, onanistic theory that Carl Webb was on the crew of the SS Golden Sun, despite him being the wrong nationality, the wrong height, and would have been at sea at the same time that he was working at his old man’ bakery etc etc.
If anyone is a serious researcher, and I’ve said this before, you go where the empirical evidence takes you. If you have to abandon your previous hypotheses so be it. You don’t start with a conclusion and then find all the available evidence which supports it, however flimsy or ludicrous, and ignore the evidence that disproves it. So many SM researchers seem to be stuck in grooves of their own making and can’t get out of them.
I see your best cobber Peter Bowes is still droning on about leucotomies. Did you take up his offer of a contact in Adelaide? I might get in touch with Bowes myself some time! He and lonerangeraus aka HandsOff AussieDay aka Alan Hamill are obsessing over a bloodstain on SM’s shirt and trying to interpret Burtie Cleland’s handwriting – although Hamill on his site previously stated that the notes were Det Brown’s.
Bowes also keeps harping on about the person who saw someone carrying a body along the Esplanade at Glenelg/Somerton Park. I don’t know about you but if I saw someone walking with a corpse over their shoulder I wouldn’t wait ten years to report it to the cops.
And now you are reviving all this Solomonson nonsense which was debunked donkey’s years ago. We don’t have any proof that Carl WAS in Cottesloe at any stage but are you suggesting the ad in The Age is a fake?
Steve H..nah. You’ll pass for our resident fake until something better comes along.
I’ve a good Clifford Possum if you’re still into dots, it’s title is ‘wild potato dreaming’ and I paid little more than a pittance for it at auction in Sydney; about the time you were trying without success to get a permit into Papunya country.
John Sanders
Come back to me sport when you have learned to debate and not to merely insult…my intelligence. You better hang on to your Clifford Possum. I could have picked Possums up by the truckload in ’83 but I don’t have a collector’s mentality, or a “bargain hunter’s” one either, being an old non-materialist type myself. Enjoy your silly Solomonson debate with Jamie W – it will get you absolutely nowhere old fruit!
Can’t resist stirring the pot again even though it will upset all the Pollyannas round here. Why are some people so frightened of a frank, honest debate?
Over on Abbott’s Facebook page Cramer has been having a right old barney with our own David Morgan, telling him to “please read through the responses carefully” and to “consider using less inflammatory language in your comments.”
No wonder Derek keeps closing down comments on his posts. It’s almost as bad as Cipher Mysteries at times!
If Bute was/is a one horse town, I suppose this is Geoffrey? And no Mrs. Lockyer… Is it possible that they had married in 1952 and had already separated around Feb 1954? Unlikely…
The Kadina and Wallaroo Times (SA : 1888 – 1954) Thu 11 Feb 1954
Page 2
Family Notices
I, Wm. H. AXFORD, would like to
convey to my friends and relations my
very sincere thanks for their expres
sions and good wishes during my ill
ness whilst an inmate of the Bute
Hospital. ” Especially thanking Drs.
Torr and Seith, also Sister Morgan
and hospital staff, Mr G. Lockyer and
Mr and Mrs Stan Heinrich.
@ Pat – Dorothy was in hospital herself in April 1955, with her appendix, so I’m reading that she was still around at this stage.
The Lockyers sound like a big & interesting bunch, with some Indigenous heritage too.
@ Steve – your WA time sounds great! A good friend worked at Papunya as a teacher, he’s also an ex AFL player which served him well out there! He said that the Indigenous footy carnivals are legendary- it’s where a lot of community business gets done. I love work that uses found objects and material at hand, – like Rover Thomas’s or The Bark Ladies. There’s some great work in the National Gallery of Victoria that uses old road signs. I’m happy that Charlie seems to have moved to WA & the narrative to interesting new territory. It had been a bit weird knowing that I walk the same/similar territory as Charlie & Doff most places I go! I’m assuming that Pete Bowes has had no reason to become acquainted with Senior PC Rosie in Nimbin as he didn’t reply. We loved her, baby on one hip, gun on the other! I don’t know that I can picture Doff in an alternative community right now! I’m seeing her as more of a Country Women’s Association (CWA) girl…best scones in the universe…
Mary Lockyer’s grave photo is available on BillonGraves
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Mary-Lockyer/8736060
She was born in 15 Aug 1921
‘Devoted friend of Murray Lindquist’
Pat,
I think these are his parents:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213569451/elis-erhard-lindquist
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213556850/ruby-eveline_may-lindquist
There is a tree which shows a picture of the grave and the inscription reads:
“Lindquist, Evelene Ruby May
5-5-1913 – 5-10-1993
Loved wife of Elis (Jack)
Mother of Murray and Ian
Forever in our hearts”
You can also find them on trove.
Steve H
“frank, honest debate”? Sorry I must of missed that, all I read was you dismissing a topic offhand and without argument ostensibly just to wind someone up.
Maybe you and @JS aren’t as different as you appear to think.
Steve H., Jamie W., Ann O., BOB….in order for me to ‘mereley’ insult…your (ass-umed) intelligence, it wouldn ‘t take any debating skills at all. However by showing meaningful concern for your extreme limitations, as opposed to constinual abuse, we might yet salvage something from your torment, if only as a caution to other similarly disturbed contributors to the CM panel…in re your constant critique on Abbotts page that may amuse you. The absent minded Professor once rejected an SM candidate named Solomonson, based on his Jewishnes, deceased having been uncircumcised so no doubts. John Salomonson who turned out not to be a Jew nor Jerry Somerton to give Derek some credit, was interred with Catholic rites in 1964 at Melbourne general cemetery.
.
Jamie W. & Steve H… my only argument with your alter ego concerns his rather ‘wild west and crooked’ Tom Cole adventures in the land of Oz. Amazing tales of derring started in1985 when high adventure was all the rage. Of late he seems to be more on about his search for intellectual knowledge that refers to an earlier period in 1982/83. It includes an extended stay at Perth’s pleasant beach suburbs like Cottesloe which is conveniently on topic now. Then he’s up and off on his next sojourn into the dead heart of lightness for some cultural intercourse with likes of Ivan Panka, Ernie Dingo, Xavier Herbert and other selected local inhabitants. So In order to avoid any unpleasantness perhaps you might enquire as to whether there were one or two entries to Terra Australis in that decade of enlightement. He’s gonna have to take care in his answer though, for both you and I know someone who sees all and knows FA…
Re Glady’s May Scott’s solicitors, HH Hoare, who were looking for Charlie in 1958. If you were in Melbourne in 1987 and their address seems familiar, very sadly it is. No need to say anything more on this one or add further notoriety to something that is in the more recent past….
Jo: H.H. Hoare could possibly have got their solicitorial wires crossed with Colin Anthony Webb (b. 01 Feb 1919 in Cottesloe, d. 12 Mar 1980 in Cottesloe, having first m. Ethel Robins in 1948 in Perth). Not a lot of anything else turning up right now, it seems to me…
@ Nick,
Was Colin Anthony Webb an Electrician? C. Webb’s name, location and occupation were probably found in the electoral rolls. If Colin was also an Electrician that would corroborate your theory.
Pat: in 1949, Colin Webb was described in the electoral rolls as a student, but from 1954 onwards as an engineer.
Thanks Nick! Maybe you’re right, judging by Dorothy’s solicitors, they didn’t seem to do their work properly, did they? And judging by my own experience with them, nothing has changed…
Jamie W
I really can’t take anybody who writes “must of” instead of “must have” seriously. Best stick to your semi-literate, half-baked ramblings about Solomonson, mate, or should I say matey.
John Sanders
You have now left reality behind completely. Get a life man! I repeat for the last time I have only ever posted here or anywhere else on issues surrounding SM under my real surname, of which H is the first letter, or for a while Ann O when I became sick of trolls like you attacking my tentative, diffident, self-deprecating first steps on this site. Now I’ve grown a thicker skin than insecure and chippy persons like your not so good self will ever have.
@Jo
You seem to have had some adventures yourself up Nimbin way. Does Mr Bowes ever reply to anyone unless he is trying to get one over on them? Sorry to say I’m not a fan of footy – maybe that’s where I have been going wrong all these years!
Actually my time in WA did end in abject failure (as do most of my ventures) as I was unable to carry out my original plans of doing an in depth study of Aboriginal art from the West Kimberley region. Although I have refrained from commenting here on the matter of indigenous affairs, needless to say that Aboriginal people had a terrible time on the frontier in WA (actually all over Australia) at the hands of settlers like the Lockyers, having been dispossessed of their land and had their culture brutally suppressed on the pastoral leases and elsewhere.
Funny you should mention Rover Thomas, as Mary Macha, who I worked for briefly in Perth, had a big role in his success. From her obituary on the online Aboriginal Art Directory:
” She [Macha] grew from a West Australian job in the State’s Native Welfare Department to handling many of the most significant early paintings to emerge from the distressed Warmun/Turkey Creek community in the East Kimberley. Rover Thomas was her particular protege, so much so that, controversially, Macha’s provenance for his work became the auction house benchmark rather than that of his community art centre. And many price records were set.”
Further: “It was Mary’s recognition of the strength of the works by Paddy Jaminji associated with the Goorirr Goorirr ceremony at Warmun that led to the emergence of Rover Thomas, one of Australia’s most significant contemporary artists, and the development of the most radical Australian art movement of the late 20th century, the Warmun or Turkey Creek school of art. These artists presented a totally new perspective on how to present the Australian landscape and the traditional values embedded in it.”
I missed a trick with Thomas as I was looking to work elsewhere, but I did see a slightly tacky tourist “corroboree” in Kununurra in 1982 involving the Turkey Creek mob and featuring the painted boards which I assume were the ones associated with the Cyclone Tracy Dreaming produced by Thomas and his colleagues in the community. Unfortunately I didn’t have the foresight to see that Warmun artists would be at forefront of that Australian art scene in the 1990s despite Macha showing me some of Thomas’ work. C’est la vie!
If you do get to see more of WA I strongly recommend the Kimberley area.
No mention of a wife? That’s odd!
The Kadina and Wallaroo Times (SA : 1888 – 1954) Thu 8 Jan 1953
Page 6
BUTE NEWS.
Mr Geoff Lockyer, of Hydraulic
Equipment Coy. has returned home
after the Christmas holidays.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110399923?searchTerm=%22bute%22%20%22lockyer%22
Was Doff playing tennis as “Miss Lockyer” ?
The Kadina and Wallaroo Times (SA : 1888 – 1954) Fri 3 Nov 1950
Page 1
Wallaroo v. Moonta.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110172635?searchTerm=%22lockyer%22
Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer’s first wife also re-married using her married name, Ada Teresa Lockyer
https://2nd4thmgb.com.au/soldier/wx17604/
Apologies for derailing off the thread topic of George Lockyer, but just re Cottesloe. There are a few ads in the Melbourne papers for positions available in Cottesloe back in the day, which is interesting. I’ve also noticed some jobs say “apply by airmail” – h’mm, maybe that’s what Carl was doing at the time just before he expired. Below is just a random example:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22225603?searchTerm=cottesloe%20apply%20electrical
Did civilians work on that cable from Cottesloe to the Cocos Island? Is that something Carl could have worked on? If that’s inane, fair enough, lol.
@ Nick- I assumed Cottesloe had come from a family source (eg a long ago letter) as it’s definitely our Carl. Given he would only be there for a brief time there may not be much to corroborate this- unless he was fined for street betting or something!
@Pat, I think this could be the Miss Lockyer playing tennis for Moonta. Nice photo of her too 🙂
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/93774083?searchTerm=Lockyer%20Moonta
@ Poppins
Thanks! Where’s Mrs. G. A. Lockyer?!
There’s a Geoffrey Michael Lockyer from Perth that can be the G M Lockyer, clerical assistant of the Treasury and Valuation branches from 1968 to at least 1982 in Perth. Right age for being Geoffrey Arthur’s son?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241048161/26040201
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242097615/26364502
Steve H
Really? Your rudeness and hypocrisy gets called out and your response is to correct my grammar and make more personal insults?
Just remember, you pulled me into your virtual pissing competition – I had no interest in engaging with you at all. If you’re not interested in what I’m doing don’t read my comments. I’ve only made one in months, FFS, and that was a response to a specific post (by someone who wasn’t you).
Your contribution wasn’t a “frank, honest debate”. It was just you being obnoxious, ignorant, and entitled…mate.
Isn’t a little strange that Carl Webb moved to Cottesloe and Dorothy’s next husband Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer lived in Subiaco with his 1st wife. Just 11 minutes away by bus.
That is an amazing coincidence.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Cottesloe+WA,+Australia/385+Rokeby+Rd,+Subiaco+WA+6008,+Australia/@-31.9727426,115.7568002,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a32a420588fffb5:0x504f0b535df4260!2m2!1d115.7597955!2d-31.989667!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a32a51976ce11c5:0x54d871bf9d3ecbc2!2m2!1d115.8236627!2d-31.9557764!3e0
Bob N: good try, maybe good enough to fool a fool like Jamie W. or to fuel your futile alter ego but alas…anyhow my best advice to a muggins such as your sorry self would be for them to get on with their miserable non existance or else…but I would never dare say that even to a born loser like your good self ‘Charlie Brown’.
Let’s remember, as Angela posted on 9 November, after her comment had been retrieved from Nick’s spam folder, that Dorothy Lockyer was admitted to hospital in Wallaroo in April 1955:
“Dorothy Jean Lockyer.
Age: 35.
Status: Married.
Residence: Bute.
Occupation: Home Duties.”
So according to this she was a married “housewife” in Bute in 1955. I traced Geoff in Bute in the Sands and McDougalls for SA up to 1963, and Nick stated that he was on an electoral roll in Perth in 1963, so we can safely say he was in Bute up until 1962 or ’63 before returning to WA.
The first record of Geoff in SA is, I believe an October newspaper piece about him moving into a property in Port Wakefield in 1951. His house in South Bute was taking shape in June 1953. We know he was in Perenjori, WA, in December 1948 (ie after the SM body was found) through a letter in his NAA file.
So where did he meet Doff, if indeed it was really her? Was Carl really ever in Cottesloe, or is that just what the family believed? I don’t imagine a solicitor would randomly pick out a Colin Webb in Perth and assume it was him unless he was told to look in Cottesloe in the first place. Was Doff ever in WA herself, or did she meet Geoff in SA? Was the stillborn baby in December 1951, before the marriage, hers? She was in Bute in 1951 where her affidavit was filed in June.
Pat is right to point out that Geoff Lockyer’s wife is invisible in Bute. Apart from her divorce papers, the marriage record and the hospital admission there doesn’t seem any trace of her. Angela thinks they were divorced by 1963, which would fit with the fact that Geoff left Bute around that time. Keep searching!
I have made a decision to NEVER deal with John Sanders again in any way. I have been sucked into too many stupid rows through his Machiavellian machinations. Now I’ve got Jamie W on my back, when all I did was state in a reply to Sanders: “Enjoy your silly Solomonson debate with Jamie W”.
Jamie W then attacked me thus: “frank, honest debate”? Sorry I must of (sic) missed that, all I read was you dismissing a topic offhand and without argument ostensibly just to wind someone up. Maybe you and @JS aren’t as different as you appear to think.”
He spat his dummy out when I responded in kind. I’m sick of this sort of petty puerile bickering.
The familysearch.org version of Keziah’s tree has some of her children moving onto South Australia. And throughout her descendants moving between the states and various localities within each appears to be a fairly common occurrence, hence Geoffrey being born in Roebourne is not unexpected as two of his dad’s uncle has settled in Roebourne and founded a cattle station up there. His dad was probably working there at the time that Geoffrey came along.
Glad to know that Doff might’ve had a child or more.
It would be fortuitous if they’re still alive and Doff had disclosed any information about what her knowledge and involvement in Carl’s demise was.
But I doubt if we’d get that lucky tbh.
The wife “Mary” is Mary Humphrey. She was the daughter of Lionel Humphrey and Kathleen Davidson and was born in Adelaide. Kathleen Davidson was a first cousin to my great grandmother. In my Davidson Family Tree booklet, Mary Humphrey is shown as “marrying” Geoffrey Lockyer and they went to Western Australia. Kathleen Davidson lived in Miller St, Unley (possibly 44 Miller St if my memory is correct) with her family in the early 1900’s. I note mention of Unley higher up in the conversation. Kathleen also had a child with one of the Aunger brothers – either Murray, Lionel or Cyril – just to add to the mystery.
…..not cricket in my opinion that, in order to get her name in lights our long dead Gladys had to be falsely accused and villified as being a communist no less. I’d like to see something similar happen to the treacherous conservative running dog who claimed that insinuation as well spotted. The excuse that they simply weren’t aware doesn’t wash especially when a dozen 1946 newspapers gave her age as 40 when everyone of our crowd knew the Webb sisters were born in the late 1890s.
I had been worried over the three year delay in initiating Glady’s estate settlement ie., July ’55 to Oct. ’58 for, when it came his turn husband Leslie’s will was signed sealed and apportioned out in a little more than three months. After all chances are that the loving couple had combined their assetts years earlier to share their burden. It was also done to enable probate to be clearcut enough for some honest lawyer to work his fees out way before the client was laid to rest.
….knew I forgot something. That being young Scott’s family having had a long association (for all we know) as printers to the better Melbourne tabloids and journals. Les had been with the firm prior to losing a hand in the war and I’d say dad found just the spot for him after his son’s RTA. Simple straight up down and columns for the lucrative Age newspaper unproofed advertising inserts. Some of the things people get up with ad placements for any number of reasons is quite mind blowing. Got the plot yet you lot?
@ Suzy H
Thanks so much! That is really helpful. Do you have a possible date for her marriage to Geoffrey Lockyer? Do you know who was her friend, Murray Lindquist? Such a beautiful inscription!
Robert Nowak: we go back awhile don’t we ?. Last time was when you were sent up the main mast of the good ship MV Tirrania to keep the mating albatross couple from frigging in the rigging. T’was five years ago from memory and when we were looking into the life and times of Nordic seaman Charles Mickellsen. You called it a day then and there without so much as a by your leave Master of the deck, til your apparent recall to duty under the Ann O. banner. Fare thee well wherever your next mission may take you Bob and don’t drown any more cats than you need to!
Geoffrey’s grave photo is now available on findagrave, no new info.
https://findagrave.com/memorial/213529605/geoffrey-arthur-lockyer
Pat: I suspect that Mary and Geoffrey were probably not married but in order to calm the extended Davidson family, it was easier to say that they were. When the family tree booklet was created in the late 1970’s, I suspect that it was assumed that there was a marriage by the author. Having now read more about Geoffrey, I imagine that he was too tied up in other marriages and that he and Mary just lived together. Once Mary moved away from her family, I understand that there wasn’t a lot of communication. She would have been about 40 at the time. There is a photo of Mary and Kathleen together and Mary looks to be this age. I wonder if this was the goodbye visit to her mother?
I’m not aware of who Murray Lindquist may be, but perhaps he is the Murray Lindquist that comes up in a Trove search, living at Northam?
The Kadina and Wallaroo Times in Trove stops at 1954, so perhaps a trip to the library to check out newspapers and microfilm could reveal more about the Lockyers, Geoff and Dorothy. In 1968 the paper merged and became the Yorke Peninsula Country Times. I’ll toddle off to the library when I get some free time.
Whoopsie, strike that, I won’t be toddling off to the library, the archives are 727 k’s away from me in South Australia, woeful shame … someone in SA might be able to check it out? I can only toddle off finding Victorian stuff, lol.
@ Suzy H
@ Peter D
A friend from an SA farming family is married to one of the contemporary Aungers! They are in Melbourne….
Apparently Lynette Lockyer, wife of Arnold Gerard (who is the son of Gerard Arnold), in Northam, has done lots of research on the Lockyers. Do either of you know/know of her? (She has written a book). I can provide a Facebook link/contact… I haven’t contacted her. It could be good for someone closer to the family to do so. I’m happy to make contact if neither of you want to.
I was sure someone had posted on this before…
Is there anyone with access to electoral rolls able to provide details on:
Mrs DJ Robertson
45 Keane Street (!)
Peppermint Grove
1947 Wise’s directory of WA p132. There is a Mrs Esme Robertson in the same block, so probably all coincidental…
Seems most of us gave up on Geoffrey Lockyer in 1964 when he went off the S & McD. Bute residential index and presumably headed west. For some reason I can’t come to terms with why folks were so anxious to send him off to Pert and shark infested Cottesloe beach merely on an unreliable news tip. Truth be known the real Geoff, the engineer from Bute, had merely packed up when his contract ended and moved over to the coast where he remained. That is until at least ’73 when the index ceased, chances being that Geoff spent the rest of his days fishing with his mate from Millicent. And yes there is good evidence to show that Dorothy Jean herself didn’t move far from where she’d taken on her rental at Parkside in1947; Apart from a few necessary breaks in tenure between 1951/52 and a subsequent move to nearby Unley upon return which can be accounted for.
@John Sanders, interesting theory about Dorothy and 50 Frederick Street, New Parkside from 1947 – the audience is listening …. h’mm, we’ve gotta find out her initials though before we can progress to the next round. Maybe someone can access the electoral rolls and check it out. Good find, good on ya. I’ll see what I can find about the place.
I have been watching with interest to see if someone could make a breakthrough with Dorothy. Finally Angela was able to unearth her marriage to Geoff Lockyer.
Building on her efforts I decided to check land records to see if I could find out anything more about Geoff, Dorothy and Mary.
Geoff purchased 2 adjacent blocks of land (CT 2245/77 & 2245/76) from his employer, Hydraulic Equipment Co Ltd at the corner of Everard St and Kulpara Rd in 1953 (no mention of Dorothy). Just further north is an old disused factory which I suspect would have been the Hydraulic Equipment premises. In 1959 Mary makes an appearance by purchasing a property (CT 1664/100) in her name only, just south along Kulpara Rd from Geoff’s. These CT’s can be viewed on the SAILIS website.
One of Geoff’s properties is sold in 1961 and the other and Mary’s property were sold in 1962 which ties in with Electoral Rolls showing them both in WA from 1963 onwards.
So it would appear that Dorothy met Geoff somewhere, formed a relationship which explains why she ended up in Bute of all places. So, Geoff marries Dorothy in 1952, they are apparently still together in April 1955 when she has her appendix removed in Wallaroo hospital, but divorced with Geoff remarrying Mary by 1959. And was she the mother of the stillborn “Lockyer, Male Child of Geoffrey A” from 13/12/1951? Considering they married the following year, it seems likely.
Like Susie H, I have also found that Mary was Mary Humphrey born 15/8/1921 in Adelaide. Through Ancestry I managed to find a lovely lady who confirmed the same. She contacted a nephew of Mary’s who passed on some interesting information about Geoff: “Geoff made state roads in WA. He had a new Rolls Royce and was a heavy smoker. He had an oxygen tank in the boot of his Rolls piped to his oxygen mask. He had his own plane that flew him and explosives to various construction sites. When he crashed his Rolls he had it sent to England to be repaired. While he was waiting he bought a new one for cash and he was on the news handing over the cash”.
I suspect that some older people from Bute will remember Geoff seeing he was there for over 10 years and was married twice during that time! And they might remember his wives as well!
None of this tells us where Dorothy ended up but it does show how and why she went to Bute.
I hope to do some more research in the coming weeks which I hope may provide some more information.
….Will we ever get learn anything more on our original Geoff Lockyer? not likely it seems, ever since attention was diverted to some interloping t’othersider known for his ability to be in two states at once, wide ranging at that and having a natural tendency to cause mayhem wherever he is. Catching up with the other chap, the quiet easy going and popular tradesman from Bute is nevertheless a little more demanding than one might have hoped for. For starters we know not whence he came, what he did or whomsoever he did it with upon arrival, how and where he ended his days and with whom. There be also the missing pieces from his known connection to Dorothy Webb post 1948 and about their eventual assumed parting. I have a feeling that he may have been from over by Port Augusta or even further afield, recalling that he had a minor problem with the law at PA in the early 50s and had his Holden car nicked there or at Port Pirie in ’54. For some reason I’m thinking he is probably younger by some years than might fit comfortably with the ladies most assuredly, who’d like to see him as being of Dorothy’s age or a tad older for respectabilty’s sake.
Just a quick warning to fellow CM contributors.
“John Sanders” has been trying to blacken my (Steve H/Ann O) reputation by making nonsensical claims that I have been posting here and elsewhere under different aliases, most recently Robert Nowak (BOB/Bob N?.) Who he?
I now have reason to believe that “John Sanders” is not an individual but an organised group of trolls operating out of Vietnam (Gary Glitter country, I need hardly add).
To quote from the writer on Anemptyglass Wikia:
“..having been given the role of Admin I will do all I can to maintain a wiki free of trolls. In that regard, I have removed and banned the ‘John Sandrrs (sic)’ troll and am in the process of deleting all of the comments associated with that person either directly under that name or one of the numerous Vietnam based IP addresses that were being used by that person.”
I believe that “John Sanders” is actually a group of people, one of whom is certainly Australian, whilst others seem barely conversant with the English language. This group refuse to post links etc because they are outcasts from society and they do not wish to be traced,
Of course it is up to individuals posting here whether they interact or engage with “John Sanders”, but my advice would be to be very wary.
@Jo
On 11 November I posted in a reply to you:
“I note on your mate Peter Bowes’ site that Clive has found a Mrs D J Robertson living in Peppermint Grove in 1947 – she is listed as living at 45 Keane St, Peppermint Grove, Cottesloe, WA. The area, one of Perth’s very poshest, is, like Cottesloe, just north of Mosman Park.”
As I am clearly persona non grata here now, having been the only contributor prepared to stand up to the trolls, bullies and egotists, it is best if I refrain from commenting further and retire gracefully.
Ever since my mate Nigel and I (unsuccessfully) tried to get the Sex Pistols down to the University of Kent at Canterbury in our first week as students in October 1976, I have maintained a “punk” attitude of sticking two fingers up at authority and to those po-faced and pious individuals who think they have a right to determine who has and who hasn’t got the right to contribute in any given sphere of society. It appears that this is unpalatable to many here who would prefer us all to adopt a Stepford Wives style approach.
Goodbye and good luck in your search for Carl and Doff and attempt to discover what happened on Somerton beach that fateful day.
Poppins: you’ll have noted that, according to a recent post from RichardD that his garnered information does not fit at all with my own related posts which were sourced through Sands & McDougall’s Sth. Australian records. It can be seen that a G. Lockyer, presumably the one from Bute took up residency at 7 Scholefield Rd. Merino S.A. (later Kingston Park) from ’65 or ’66 and was still there in 1973. As for Dorothy (presumably), she was listed as Mrs. G. Lockyer initially but only as Mrs. Lockyer from 1947 through 1949 at 70 (not 50 my bad) Frederick St. New Parkside. In 1959. However a Mrs. G. Lockyer shows up at nearby Fairford St. Unley and was still listed there in ’60 & ’61. Unfortunately the sequential pages through to and including 1964 were missing and afterwards she has gone.
As you’ll have noted my ongoing searches are totally at odds with the facinating story provided by our new researcher without provuding any real proof of fact other than that supplie to him by “a lovely lady” from Ancestry, details of which I’m not really in position to make comment upon for lack of better knowledge at this juncture. PS. I’ll need to check my own dates to varify as they were copied down in scrawl and rather hurriedly.
@ RichardD
Excellent information, thank you! Geoff being such a character, I suspect Dorothy would have changed her name, or gone by a nickname (perhaps to avoid being tracked by Carl) and kept a low profile. Or if she was pregnant before the absolute decree, she would have to live elsewhere until things could be ‘arranged’, Bute being such a small community.
….some body is feediing us a line Poppins, starting with Angela’s take from Derek’s facebook page which skips from Bute to W.A. with no hesitation nor any proper explanation as to how the shift occurred; it merely concludes that her Geoffrey Lockyer from Bute with the same monicker must be the man for all seasons. This most unlikely yarn has been somehow adopted by our own gullible crowd without the slightest hesitation or doubting, so the story now takes on a life of it’s own and runs. You know the rest as well as I do and it doesn’t have the makings for a happy ending to my way of thinking.
Last post from me.
I’ve been having a quick look at Mary Lockyer thanks to the input of Suzy H (no relation) and RichardD.
From Mary Lockyer (Humphrey) on Geni:
“Birthdate: circa August 15, 1921
Birthplace: Adelaide
Death: August 18, 2011 (86-94)
Wembley Downs, Western Australia, Australia
Place of Burial: Nedlands, Western Australia, Australia
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Lionel John Humphrey and Kathleen Humphrey (Davidson)
Wife of Jeffrey Lockyer
Sister of John Ian Humphrey
Half sister of Jack Maxwell Whiting, Pilot Officer RAF VR”
John Ian Humphrey was born in Burnham, Bucks, UK in 1918. Jack was born in Eastbourne in 1912 and was the son of Murray Aunger. He died in WW2. Her father Lionel was born at The Cold Hill, Wentnor, Clun, Shropshire in 1892. Her mother was from Adelaide.
The Humphreys lived at 54, not 44, Miller Street in 1952 and ran a kennels:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/93868234?searchTerm=%2254%20miller%20street%22
Murray Lindquist seems to have been a boy from Northam, WA, under 3 in 1942:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/260325445?searchTerm=%22murray%20lindquist%22
Good luck to one and all!
@ Steve H.
I’ve left once (for similar reasons) and I’ve come back, I won’t let the trolls let me down. See you soon!
@richard d
can you find who owned 274 Domain road in 1941, 63 Bromby st – 1942, 90a/b Moseley st – 1948.
or teach us how to search on sailis for these and other properties.
John Sanders: from the evidence, it now seems pretty clear that there were two G. A. Lockyer cousins, both born in WA, with the grazier GAL staying back in WA while the engineer GAL moved over to work in SA etc, before moving back some years later.
The stuff reported by RichardD here also seems very persuasive and direct, not sure what you’re hoping for at this point.
RichardD: fantastic stuff, well done, and thanks very much for sharing! Good luck finding out more! 🙂
@SteveH, keep posting and sharing all the great stuff you find, Mary Poppins is fascinated by it all and likes you very much.
@JohnSanders, oh, ’twas a typo, “could it be” – lol …….. so it’s 70 Frederick Street …. just found this ad, 15 April 1948: “Wanted quiet home for elderly lady, 70 Frederick St, Unley” – what’s that all about? My search continues after I do some stuff.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43763410?searchTerm=unley%2070%20frederick%20st
@RichardID good on ya, thanks for sharing that info, most interesting.
Steve H: I thought the trolls here were misunderstood individuals that frequently cook on the glass barbecue. It makes sense of the staying up all night, getting caught up in rabbit holes and the frequent rambling. I could be wrong. But I do enjoy the read.
Lurch: a few of them, probably – but that doesn’t seem to explain the rest.
@Steve H. I was happy to take my Tamam Shud views to ‘anemptyglass’ due to it’s user friendly uncensored non partisan allure to thinking people and as such had remained dormant for some time. This came at a time when Nick Pelling made it clear in no uncertain terms that his site did not condone my strongly held contrary views nor my disagreements with his preferred status quo element, at times too forcefully perhaps. Gordon Cramer also had me de barred from Sue de nhim’s old site in late 2019 with a cowardly scathing diatribe directed my way in much the same manner as you have seen fit to include in your own less than flattering opinion of my limitations. GC, God help him, took the site over promising a new new direction aimed at gullible flies to his web of lies which has to date failed to attract anyone but his own alter egos. In chosing to tell all about my surplus of IPs which are linked to connections on the dark web thence on to fellow veteran rock spiders exiled in Vietnam, he’s not had many takers, as if I cared. What really gets me hopping mad is, not so much the proliferation of the term troll baiter as a means smother honest opinion of those whose views differ from their own; What find most distressing is just how gullible and easily duped many well educated and intelligent people, your good self can be.
Dear Steve
I am so sorry that amidst the pile of socks and hankies I was ironing, with the odd quick side post to Ciphermysteries, I missed that it was your good self and Clive who alerted me to Mrs DJ Robertson of Keane Street, Peppermint Grove. I still don’t know who the hell she is as I don’t have access to WA electoral rolls.
I hope anarchy in the UK is all going along fine.
Please let our good friend Nick know that Colin Webb, the Cottesloe engineering student, joined the RAAF during WWII, but unfortunately suffered from terrible air sickness. He then became a crack radar mechanic and received an offer, after the war, to become a trainee crypt analyst! His file sadly doesn’t include the sequel to this tale…
The 1958 ad from HH Hoare, Solicitors, of Melbourne, seeking Charlie, connotes that there were already rumours that Charlie may have died…
Anyway, never mind the bollocks, or the consortium of colonels, there’s flower arranging and Troving to be done…
Yours sincerely
Joanna
PS David Morgan – 63 Bromby Street is probably Thomas Zimmerman (no relation of Bob) and I think Tristam Buesst sold 274 Domain Road (Osmington) in 1936. It was passed in at auction, but later sold.
Nick Pelling: fair enough. You stick with RichardR and his seemingly pursuasive and direct evidence as is your prerogative. Meanwhile I’ll diddle around a bit and see if I Can’t first locate Adelaide born Mary Humphry [sic], then try to make some truth out of the remainder. Wish me luck…
Dear Lurch
I asked the good folk at Bunnings if they could show me the latest in glass barbecues but they simply gave me an icy stare!
Ciphermysteries simply won’t be the same without Anne O & Steve!
I just enjoy the side tracks of history on the run…
Regards
Joanna
Dear Lurch
I asked the good folk at Bunnings if they could show me the latest in glass barbecues but they simply gave me an icy stare!
Ciphermysteries simply won’t be the same without Anne O & Steve!
I just enjoy the side tracks of twentieth century Australian history on the run…
Regards
Joanna
Suzy H…. Seems to me that the only part of Mary’s extended clan that might be installed at your Miller St. Unley address would be mother Kate’s Humphries Davidson or Auger mob. And yet the Lockyer family have been there since well before the war, so whose relatives are they surely not her husbands. Probably not relevant is, that whilst puting pieces in place for Poppins re my Mrs. G. Lockyer a nearby occasional tennant from ’43 through to the fifties, I happened to hit on a Miss D. J. Lockyer at Gilberton, she being a single S & McDougall entry in 1943…should that be of use in your ongoing Cottesloe venture.
If Carl was a serious ornithologist could he have bought/rented the home at Keane st in Cottesloe in the 1930s? That in 1946 this was where Dorothy moved to and she left Carl after meeting wealthy Lokyer. She moved to Bute with Lokyer but as she was not having his children in the 1950s he dumped her for Mary?
It is interesting that Lockyer was living on oxygen bottles and Carl was seriously ill with some internal issue. Dorothy seemed to like marrying sick men.
Tangled web woven…
In reply to several comments I can say there was another Geoffrey (Edward Burwood) Lockyer in SA. There is not much info on him apart from his headstone in the Salisbury Park cemetery. It says he was born in the UK in 1926 and died 18/6/2008 and is most likely the one mentioned in Sands and McDougall as living in the Adelaide suburbs mentioned. TROVE records and land records seem to confirm our Geoffrey was based in the Bute area for the 10-12 years he was in SA. SAILIS only has SA land records and I am not familiar with accessing Vic land records.
Some family trees on Ancestry have Geoffrey as being born in 1918 in WA, but I can see his record of birth on the BDM states he was born in 1921. However I have not seen the original document although it could be ordered. There does not seem to be any other Geoffrey Lockyers born in WA. Maybe he changed his date of birth when applying to the Army as many did. 1921 ties in with a Geoffrey Lockyer (17) charged at Kalgoorlie in 1938 with breaking and entering.
In regard to Geoff and Mary, her nephew also made the following comments which I did not include in my post last night but I thought, what the heck, it provides a bit more of a picture of Geoff and perhaps why he was married 3 times and why he might well be remembered in Bute!
“Mary told me that he had a thing for prostitutes even up to his dying days. I was told they never had kids and when Mary passed her estate went to a gay couple involved in the theatre she was involved in. My family was very strange indeed on both sides. She owned and lived in her own unit with her cat.”
I can make no further comment on the accuracy of these statements but I assume the source had no reason to invent the information.
Anyway, the main aim is track down Dorothy, which might happen if we get some more breakthroughs like Angela’s
G.E.B Lockyer arrived in Australia in 1966 from UK where he had been a process before settling in Adelaide with his family. He is not identical to the G. Lockyer who moved to Merino near Brighton in same time frame as G. Lockyer from Bute who went off the S & McD. register there in ’64 or ’64 from memory.
@RichardD, that SAILIS site is just fab, hey – thanks so much for informing about that research tool, I’ve been poking around in it, it’s just sensational. Thanks for that extra info on Geoff and Mary too, more pieces to an interesting puzzle, h’mm, they did have their eccentricities, and who doesn’t just love an eccentric 🙂 He died quite young, didn’t he, in his 50’s?
@JohnSanders, in SAILIS I can see we have a Gladys Gertrude Lockyer, New Parkside, I think we can rule her out of our list of Dorothy suspects – I’m putting a pencil line through Lockyer at Parkside. Good to reach a logical conclusion, let’s press on.
SAILIS easy steps:
Go to: https://www.landservices.com.au/
Click the blue SAILIS symbol next to magnifying glass:
Click the blue box saying Historical Search
Click Image Search, scroll down to Historical Name Index Search
Type the letter L in First Character box
Choose Year – 1949-1950
Go to p.55 and click Select (numbers at far left of each item which is handy)
***
For the address searches click on Land Search instead of Image Search and
scroll down to Historical Search, then you can click on Address.
@Jo, I know you’re in Victoria … do you think it’s ever gonna stop raining – lol
There are lots of Trove references to Murray Lindquist as a young person in Northam WA (one was previously posted by Steve H) – he was very involved in music, fancy dress, school and church activities when he was young. He is quite a bit younger than Mary Lockyer. I wonder whether he was one half of the theatre couple referred to in Richard’s post? There are also Lockyers farming in Northam (Geoffs cousin, Gerard A Lockyer and his descendants).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword.phrase=Murray%20Lindquist
George Edward Lockyer, Marine surveyor bn. UK 1900 late of Merino/Kingston Park. NFA….
I’m always interested in little dopplegangerish in life, while not involving physical lookalikes, perhaps sometimes just the same name. I did not know this before today, but it was a Charles Webb that wrote “The Graduate” to which the film of the same name was drawn. Those Webb’s and Webers do get around. I found this out while looking up Joe Dimaggio the baseball player, who was allegedly involved with a bit of nastiness with this “Blonde” actress you might have heard of, and who happens to be a quite distant relative of mine. It is alleged, and is not looking good for old Joe, just as it hasn’t been looking so hot for Carl. I have accepted might be true on the face of them, I have heard more on this score though will not bother you good folks with it.
So the way you have it is that Dorothy “somehow” missed her dead husbands picture in the newspapers, got divorced and proceeded to move on and change her name to Mary. Doesn’t sound impossible. Think I will wait until the end of the story and summation including Rubaiyat, before commenting, whenever that may be if you don’t mind. I think 99% of you folks are doing good with your research angles so go go go! I didn’t known any sad stories like Carl/Dorothy’s potential one, and now I do. (sigh) Who knows where it will be for all of us when its over? I tremble to think, but I will tremble from the sidelines, where its semisafe.
Poppins: keep your rubber handy luv. Not that I was ever so Keane on my Adelaide Lockyers though Miss D. J. looked ok at first. For the sake of my reputation, if ever I deserved one, go back and check Sands & McD. 1948 Alphabetical for the Lockyer gals and get back to me with what you make of it. I don’t handle smugness unless it’s coming from a wiser authority or me missus. Found a brand new Dorothy Jean D’arcy right by New Parkside if you want in on an old old favourite. You won’t find it on SAILIS or SandsandMcD though.
Matt: if Charles Webb wrote ‘The Graduate’, you’d of (hello Bob) thought the Simon & Garfunkel hit tune written for it would have been Mrs. Robertson not Robinson. Obviously that Charlie wasn’t in the know.
@ Matt – these are the real deal doppelgangers of Roy Webb. Facial ID matches them – at least the originals on which they are based. Once you improve them with AI they drift away from being a match.
The guy in the middle seems to have had some nasal injury – surgery? He also has the same wink/squint in the right eye as Roy. The guy on the end with the tombstone teeth had extensive dental surgery.
We know Roy was ‘technically’ dead in 1943 but that didn’t stop him having a child in 1946 named Brenda.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nadBfJl_4Bg7aFoFQzxLHCbqgRAf7lZp/view?usp=sharing
I wondered whether Lockyer’s need for oxygen in his Rolls Royce was as a result of a nasal injury and whether he too had extensive dental surgery on some trip to the USA?
He is listed on genealogy as having had a trip to Hawaii.
If you freeze the frame in the promo at 00:24 you can see Carl – very fair haired. How wonderful. Looking forward to the Australian Story episode on Monday.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-17/my-name-is-charles-somerton-man-mystery/101668074
@ Jo
I guess Mary Lockyer and Murray Lindquist were both musicians.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/36212129?searchTerm=%22Mary%20Humphrey%22
John Sanders, I don’t know what kind of alternate parallel universe you’re spinning around in, lol, but I can categorically say there was no smugness in my post, none whatsoever. Perhaps if you read it again in the voice of Mary Poppins or Winnie the Pooh you’ll see. Not smug. Cheers
@ David Morgan are we sure that is Roy he seems different from the army picture on file and older too. I suspect it might be Russell
I’ve updated the project description in https://www.geni.com/projects/Somerton-Man/714584 for those interested in genealogical type of things. You should be able to view the trees of profiles linked into the project fairly easily.
When I first read Dorothy’s newspaper posting looking for Charles, I found it odd that she did not list her lawyer as a contact. Looking around the page, the listing directly above hers listed a lawyer but not the name of the person who was searching for her missing husband. So, I went looking for who she might be. I wondered if perhaps Dorothy’s and her search might be related. Or if maybe, Dorothy and the woman in the other listing knew one another…Here is that listing:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205334969?searchTerm=%22Thomas%20Charles%20Gould%22
It turns out that the woman above Dorothy’s notice searching for Thomas Charles Gould was Moira Alice Dunstan. She married him in 1946 when she was 17. He was possibly 51. There are a few Thomas Charles Goulds but i now suspect that she probably married one who, unfortunately, died the year she married him. His family members were searching for him well past his death and they also didn’t seem to know what happened to him.
Moira was still searching for him in 1952 when she posted this:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205347806?searchTerm=%22Thomas%20Charles%20Gould%22
Marriage record here:
Name: Moira Alice Dunstan
[Moria Alice Dunstan]
Gender: Female
Marriage Registration Year: 1946
Marriage Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
Spouse: Thomas Charles Gould
Reference Number: 10023
I should have stopped there but I didn’t and I went to look at what happened to Moira. There is no marriage record but by 1963, she shows up on an electoral roll as Moira Alice Webb!
She is listed at 191 Queensberry Street, North Melbourne and there is a listing on the same roll for a Charles Webb at 177 Queensberry Street.
In 1967, she and Charles Webb are living together at 597 Queensberry Street. They are still living together at the same address in 1972 and 1974. He is listed as a “driver”. Sadly, Moira died in 1974. She was only 45. After a bit of a search, I found a listing in Victoria records for an inquest into her death dated 6 March 1974. Cause of death: overdose. See here:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?keywords=Moira%20Alice%20Webb&iud=true
So…Yet another sad and crazy/impossible co-incidence? It’s nuts!
(This particular Charles Webb is very difficult to track. I have been unable to find either a birth or death record for him that I can conffirm. He shows up in an electoral listing in 1980 still living at 597 Queensberry with a Lawrence Kenneth Webb. Charles is listed as a driver and Kenneth is a labourer. I haven’t been able to determine if Kenneth is a possible son or other relative.)
Poppins: sorry for perhaps drawing a hasty conclusion regarding your botched efforts to try it on with a ‘gotcha’ entrapment ploy…”the audience is listening”, ‘Oh, t’was a typo, “could it be” – lol’. All of this of course having to do with my posted information on a Mrs. Lockyer of 70 Frederick St. New Parkside in 1948. Fess up to your poor judgement of my correct assertions and I’ll cheerfully withdraw my ill considered use of ‘snide’ against you….Deal?
……and to you or those not yet familiar with my being identified with brainless Winnie the Pooh in Flash Gordon Framer’s clever animation sketch on Taman Shud Blog Spot, check it out some time; its a riot for folks with a really warped sence of on line frivolity. All seeing, all knowing new wave CM skeptic Milongal plays the part of of the dumb ass EeYore.
Peter Bowes: sorry cobber but the boss is away in W.A. at stringray Bay with the rest of them so they say; while I’m here holding the fort in S.A. doing F A. OK….in re the Barbies; From memory, I think in Bob Cowan’s testimony at the ’49 inquest, he swears that he did tests on all common poisons etc., etc,…..including Barbiturates. So unless he’s careless with the truth, why would he be?, we must give him the benefit of any doubts…I hear tell the Cowans lived in Moseley Street not far from John Dwyer and the Thomsons though I’m not sure if it was at the same time.
JS,
Ill gladly keep up.my end of the conversation, if its welcome. Mrs Robinson/Mrs Robertson, haha, hadn’t thought that.Hmmm. Maybe. Perhaps. Naaaaah. I am a fan of the song though, like everyone. Joe Dimaggio, aside from whatever may have occurred with his x-wife, was also famous for being a New York Yankee. So if you root for any other team, and there are a lot of them…sacrilege! It is a monster of a song and much beloved. I find S&G songs are very good for helping me sleep. Which is often very needed.
@em
Definitely the same person – Roy. I found the blond haired image of Carl more troublesome – but I will wait to see a better-quality image after Monday.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ktNno9NWL4Rf7j1o2gy33EM3B7IvqUFV/view?usp=sharing
I have just had some more information come through today in relation to the entry on the SA Genealogy & Heraldry database “Male Stillborn child of Geoffrey A Lockyer” dated 13/12/1951. There was no birth or death certificate because the child was stillborn. I am happy to share the image if someone can tell me how it can be linked to this post or sent to an email etc. But here are the details anyway from the Funeral Director’s Records:
When Died: 13th Dec 51 Calvary Hospital
Name: Stillborn Male Lockyer
Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer
Dorothy Jean “Robertson” 31 years
Burra Street Port Wakefield
Cemetery: West Terrace General
Denomination: Ch of England
Grave: Ordinary
Casket: W.C. S.B. (not sure what that means)
Convey: To Cemetery from Hospital
Time of Funeral: Monday 17/12/51 11 AM
Leaving from: The Parlors
Person ordering: Mr GA Lockyer Burra Street Port Wakefield
The total cost was 1 18 6, which someone reading this might be able to translate!
It shows the address of Burra Street, Port Wakefield which ties in with the Trove mention of Geoff moving into the only available house in Port Wakefield. It was in 1953 that Geoff purchased land in Bute and built his house.
So I think we can say that Geoff and Dorothy were in a relationship from at least early 1951.
I have been informed by a friend who grew up in Bute that a local history group is currently researching Geoff and wives so here’s hoping they come up with some interesting stuff.
@ RichardD
Brilliant, thanks! Maybe W.C. S.B. means White Casket, Still Born?
RichardD –
Thanks for sharing those details. It’s very sad.
JohnSanders, I’ve got nothing to fess up …. I present my case; “the audience is listening” was a reference to the cinema, THX, the “twas a mistake” was a reference to “oh, you made a mistake”, in that I’d just spent half an hour or so looking for info on No.50 Frederick Street when you actually meant 70, fair enough, and not mean spirited at all. And then we have “could it be” – a reference to the voiceover guy on The Curse of Oak Island. I rest my case.
PS: I thought the smug accusation was for the SAILIS post. Cheers
Very sad RichardD and ironically the same cemetery as Carl lays anonymously lays in. The West Terrace cemetery.
Poppins: lame excuse, the 50/70 had been corrected before you decided to make your play. Weak as piss but, no less than expected however.
Is Calvary Hospital in Adelaide?
JohnSanders, I’m not going to engage with you on the topic anymore, a bit too cantankerous for Poppins – I certainly was looking for info on 50 Frederick Street …. and you’ll need to read this post in the voice of Peppa Pig.
Poppins: gotta let me reply to your denials and let your audience decide shall we. JS to misca at 1.33pm 10th November …..’Did you try the 70 Frederick St. New Parkside address for Mrs. Lockyer yet….’ ….You at 9.11am 15th November… ‘waiting to progress on 50 Frederick St. Good find good on ya….’…. Me at 12.10am 15th November….’70 not 50 my bad’ in brackets me thinking I had given wrong number but, t’was you what got it wrong P.P….Oink!
@richardD,
More excellent research on Dorothy. You are making the rest of us seem like amateurs …which I assume we are…
The price 1 18 6 – is it 1 casket for 18 shillings and sixpence?
It is interesting that it was 1951 she thought she needed a divorce when at the time the baby was on the way.
—–
To upload a link to an image I use google drive as a storage space – but there are many ways to share a picture – search google.
dude47: your pick for the Unknown Man of West Terrace @ Jerry Somerton was T. Keane the grand theft auto guy, a lay down misere dead certainty as we recall. So who’s this Carl Webb guy you are now so all fired Keane on. GC thinks he was part of a ships crew but seems to have trouble with height discrepency again, same as with pavel Fedosimov.
John Sanders … the word around the traps is that young Chuck chewed down a load of Luminol tabs again, this time with the desired result, Cowan meanwhile seems to have been asleep at his wheel according to Dr. Barbed Wire.
This is major.
RichardD: thanks for your expanded details of Dorothy Robertson’s child and so might I reciprocate with translation of your mystery numbers. 1 18 6 = one pound eighteen shillings and sixpence or £1/18/06 which by my reckonning converts to a little less than $4.00 US by 1951 calculations.
Before breaking the Lockyer baby story a while back, I had tried to obtain details through contact with West Terrace Cemetery Trust and S.A. Gene. Soc. but, to little avail ie., no name gendre or type of delivery etc., likewise for a baby Webb that I had also located closeby Somerton Man’s grave some few months earlier.
All so sad and all but, who was aware that barely two weeks later Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer was himself seeing in the new year in rather fine style with his buddy Allan Clarke at the Centralian Hotel, Henley Beach. One might wonder how poor Dorothy herself was faring. Very doubtful that she had anything to celebrate in my opinion.
Calvary Hospital is in North Adelaide.
I have just posted the record I shared last night to the Facebook page, Identifying the Somerton Man.
Yes, Calvary Hospital is in Adelaide
@RichardD: This is a great contribution. Thank you for sharing.
Your finding sheds light on the circumstances of Carl’s and Dorothy’s divorce. This was much needed, since we can now triangulate the divorce papers with your findings.
I think the timeline here is very important.
So Dorothy petitioned the Court for divorce from Carl on June 5, 1951. Geoff’s and Dorothy’s baby died on December 13, 1951. Stillbirth means that their baby was at least of 28 weeks of gestational age, so by June 5, when Dorothy sought divorce from Carl, she was most certainly already pregnant with Geoff and it seems she was hoping to get divorce before the baby is born. Her pregnancy would have certainly been a strong motive for her to seek divorce at that particular point of time.
There is one sentence in Dorothy’s divorce affidavit that says that she and Carl didn’t have intercourse since January 1946. This statement seemed strange to me, sort of implanted there and without a context, but now it makes a perfect sense. I now believe that the sentence was intentionally included in her affidavit to rule out Carl as a potential father of the baby she was carrying.
It must have been devastating to lose baby that late into the pregnancy; likely Doff experienced a huge amount of grief and loss and possibly ensuing depression. Geoff and Doff married after all that; so maybe Geoff turned out to be a supportive partner for her after all. Or so I hope.
….how silly of me. Centralia hotel, where Geoffrey Lochyer pal Allan Clarke were done for cracker offences on New Years day ’52 and, who told fibs, was in the city and not Henley Beach nor Pt Augusta as per previous posts. I can give more info if needed on the life and times of baker Clarke who is not identical to one previously reported on from Millicent.
RichardD, magnificent find, and thank you for sharing …. devastatingly sad it is though for Dorothy and Geoff, I can’t begin to imagine ….. and yet, moving forward, the greatest lead to date in finding what became of Dorothy after Carl. Superb work, good on ya.
PS: Maybe on Australian Story on Monday we’ll finally get to see a photo of Dorothy ……… hope so.
Pete Bowes: dunno bout no uppers or downers ain’t done none and if I done any they didn’t kill me more’s the pity. Apart from all that I do recall some credible source way back reckons that Chemist Cowan wasn’t around when Scan Sutherland dropped off the test samples and that Bob’s lab people went ahead and done the job unsupervised which he fessed up to. Got a feeling that misca looked into Cowan’s life and times extensively so ask her. As for me I ain’t involved in no drugs so leave me be. ..got it?
RichardD: it’d be good if you could post the link on CM. There are some things on your detailed report that are in need of some clarification for peace of mind as you will understand. That is not to say that I’m doubting your own fine input in any way.
….no real need for the link this end except for the record. I got the burial advice varification off face book which was exactly as you had laid out for us here. Many thanks.
Dorothy Myrtle Woodley Robertson 18/7/20 – 16/22/2003 Buderin Sunshine Coast Is this for real? can’t read the plaque but, seems not to match up with our Doff.
@Peter Davidson your Billion graves link on Dorothy Robertson matches a The Ryerson Index search result for a funeral notice Dorothy Myrtle Robertson 16 Dec 2003 late of Mooloolaba.
Anyone get a gander at Gordon Cramers version of poor Richard Webb in the family snap circa. 1935. Of course he fell into ABC TV’s trap in mistaking him for younger brother Carl as was intended for the upcoming Australia Story preview. If that’s the best GC can do no wonder all his previous efforts of face makeovers ala lofty Fedosimov fell flat on their ugly dials.
…..Russell Richard OK. Struth even Derek is rooting for Carl so I must be on sure thing.
So… have we established a possible link between the Robertsons from Kadina and ‘our’ Robertsons? The doctor who treated Doff for her appendectomy, A. J. deBruin, replaced Dr. R. P. Robertson, at Wallaroo Hospital on 22 Oct 1951.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45791277/3185701
JohnSanders, it seems you’d much rather launch a rant missile at me rather approach it in a logical fashion, which is both preposterous and mean-spirited, in my humble opinion. Very well, here is how it played. On 15 November, thus to wit, I started at the very top of this thread and began scrolling down when I noticed a post which I hadn’t read before, yes, your post, addressed to Steve H, and what popped out as I scrolled down was this line, “I’ve just come upon something that might just earn me a coveted ‘well spotted badge of achievement award’ – that got my interest so I read down the next para and saw the “50 Frederick Street”, and that is when I headed off looking for info. That is the true story of how it began. I bid you good day.
Hi Colonel !!
Yes indeed I’m as Keane as ever on Carl being connected to PT rather than Jess and given we now his trade (unknown when I first floated the car theory boat) am just as Keane on his involvement in a car racket.
It’s the tool kit , it’s the gambling , it’s the dodgy/secretive behaviour, it’s his trade , it’s the small adds, it’s the financial pressure, it’s the divorce, it’s the black market at the time, it’s Mabo, its the vibe !
I have already asked this on the Dorothy Jean Robertson/Webb post, and only had a vague response by JS, so I’m asking again…
Can anyone post information about Dorothy Paterson, born in July 1920 and buried at Sandridge Cemetery, Mollymook, NSW?
Her grave’s photo is so sad I suspect it can be our Doff, given the fact that whoever arranged her funeral had to ask her estranged sister to send money.
https://billiongraves.com/images?t=med19155838&col=36417354229481491&cat=150136&rec=22282052
Poppins: that was 1.58pm on 9th inst. not the 15th as you wrongly insist though not under Oath and, yes the 50 Frederick St address was referred to though Lots of murky water under the bridge between those dates you’ll agree. Amazing neither you nor anyone else didn’t immediately pick up on game changing disclosures of Dorothy’s still born baby in 1951 or her having been institutionalised in ’55 which prompted a presumptous bid for the coveted ‘well spotted badge of achievment award’. Had you concentrated your efforts on that news as opposed to setting your mind to less pressing tasks you would not have drawn my ire. That is how the TRUE story began and on that note I bid you adieu too!
PS And another thing to add to your family feast Colonel.
When I put my hat in the ring here 99% of punters (you included) said he was either a / war hero looking for an ex lover / cold war spy in Adelaide to do spy business /merchant seaman / Robins illegitimate father looking for his son to name but a few .
AND the kit was either a stencil kit or just left unexplained as it didn’t fit the narrative.
How are all those theories looking now Colonel??
On the contrary from day one I had him down as more likely a dodgy type from Melbourne doing dodgy business under the radar and more likely connected to PT , not a spy ,not Robins dad , not a seaman. AND that unexplained suitcase items likely a bespoke tool kit designed for the purpose of breaking in and starting a motor vehicle.
Now we know he’s
Not a spy
Not Robins dad
Not a merchant seaman
Not a displaced eastern European nobody
however he is
A tool maker/sparky
A gambler
Short on cash
Known to police
Connected to the car trade
So have a crack all you like Colonel but what looks better now my hypothesis knowing what we now know or all of the other palaver that dominated this topic for 7 decades ?
JohnSanders, it’s like talkin’ to a duck!! If you can’t comprehend that I read your 9 November post for the first time on the 15th and responded to the post of the 9th on the 15th, then I just can’t help you. It’s inane. That’s it. No more. Enough nonsense. Cheers.
Another irony GA Lockyer was advertising in 1953 for someone with drilling machine experience.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48290691?searchTerm=%22g.a.%20lockyer%22
Dear John Sanders,
Your continuing BS ramblings are bringing this site down. Why don’t you give it a rest, and let the real researchers get on with it? How many times do you have to spout the same tired rubbish? Get a life!
A friend.
Could this be Dorothy, into Scottish Dancing, 46 Golding Street, York, June 1952?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47405989?searchTerm=Port%20wakefield%20Mrs%20Lockyer
Pat: can’t help with your Dorothy Paterson candidate. Reasons being that Billion dollar graves have her but won’t show her grave plaque or particulars. Findagrave Sandridge cemetery don’t have her listed at all and local interment records only name those in section B which doesn’t have her either. Sorry.
thedude747: I’ll admit you make a good point with the quick entry and ignition by-pass kit, disguised to look like a gutting knife and muelsing shears which only a precision tool maker like y’man could come up with. In so saying I can’t agree that Jessica couldn’t herself have been useful in shifty deals especially with her natural born Mabo bargaining skills and all.
Pat: I have not been able to exclude Dorothy Paterson at this stage so she remains a possibility. It’s a shame there is not a date of death recorded. I’ll look at emailing the council to see if they have any more details.
GC: If you happened to be looking for a nurse in Moseley street up towards the end, than you you couldn’t do better than Sister Nan Sparrow, soon to be Mrs. John Barkly Bennett, who lived at 105 directly opposite 90A if you happen to be familiar with the area. If not perhaps we can arrange for An O to swing by TS/BS and fill you in….Got your posed Adams Family snap doing the rounds and getting lots of cynical acclaim.
This was recommended to me on my computer as something I might like, the Belgian crime drama Salamander. It concerns a private bank in Brussels that gets dug into and all of 66 “secure” safety deposit boxes pilfered. The thieves seem be after the personal papers of its mucky muck owners, and therefore as it turns out to the crime is not related to the police. The nonreporting bank overolod conspirators, then proceed to take 3 lives, the most interesting and first one is the humble bank alarm and security expert, who iirc gets run over on his bicycle. Could this be our friend Carl? I haven’t seen past the first few episodes, and its fairly long altogether 2 seasons. The expert also has a radio controlled car he scrupulously works on for a young family member. We still don’t know what Carl was fitting, with his Engineering expertise yes?
A Friend: don’t know that we’ve met. You seem to be more like a fiend than a friend and a spineless fiend at that. Agreed I do have some liabilities compared with others on CM but, at least I’m not ashamed when it comes to posting under my God given name.
Poppins: you mean you weren’t keeping up with thread conversations between 9th to 15th November which is how you missed mine with Steve H at 1.58pm on 9th November right?. Seems that somebody has been posting as you because, Poppins posts come up on the 9th at 8.20pm and another at 9.36pm on the 10th which you’ll agree doesn’t hold weight with your explanation. Sorry.
It has been brought to my attention that John Slanders has been playing his old mind games again. We certainly do go back a long way eh Colonel? Shiver me timbers and hoist the mainsail. Now he has been making fatuous claims that I have been posting here as Steve H (Ann O?), who upon cursory examination appears to be a vaguely unpleasant, pedantic half-wit from Bristol, England, who hasn’t made any positive or original contributions here at all. Like yourself John! Better leave the sleuthing to the “professionals” like Angela, Lachlan Kelly and Richard Dutschke, possum.
I note Slanders’ lame attempts at playing the controversialist haven’t improved in tone or effectiveness – “fellow veteran rock-spiders” indeed (look “rock-spiders” up on the online Urban Dictionary for enlightenment). Not something to boast, or even make light-hearted comments, about. Then he picks on the amiable Poppins for no apparent reason. Puts me in mind of an old school rhyme:
“Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Slanders farted loudly and it smelt really atrocious.”
Worst of all he presents his “findings” about Dorothy’s hospital admission and stillborn child as something extraordinary, when in fact all he has done is look up the details on Genealogy SA. Just like his cryptic mentions of a Dorothy Jean who married a Michael Peter D’Arcy in 1964:
https://www.genealogysa.org.au/index.php?option=com_gsa&view=gsa&layout=essearch&collection_id=newspaper-marriage&page_no=1&sort_by=&sort_direction=asc&Surname=d%27arcy&GivenName=dorothy+jean&year_from=&accuracy=&ShipName=
Click on View Details. Can anyone spare $19.80?
David Morgan: Irony or nay; if you check Sands and McDougall listings you’ll see that the given address for the job applications emanate from L. Smith, a company dealing in motor cycles which you’ll agree seems somewhat unusual for the job skill advertised.
Momentary pang
So many comment here
Read a few –
the moment passes.
@JS,
Re: The motorcycle seller.
I suspect Lockyer realised when he advertised saying Bute people didn’t apply. It may have been cheaper for him to travel to meet interviewees at the motorcycle company offices than pay for their interviews in Bute. People expected expenses for interviews in those days – in the UK at least. Australia?
If Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer didn’t divorce again, either:
– he changed his name – we are not looking for the right person
– he had a bigamous marriage with Mary in 1959
or
Dorothy died/committed suicide before 1959. Perhaps even in a mysterious way like Carl.
JohnSanders, why can you not fathom the fact that Poppins didn’t read your post addressed to SteveH on the 9th, but did read other posts on the 9th and responded to those posts but read your post on the 15th whilst scrolling down from the top? It’s not hard to understand. I haven’t got time to put out a Dr Seuss style book for you, however I have concerns that that’s only way you’re going to be able to understand it.
And as an afterthought, if I were you, I wouldn’t be rushing off to join Mensa ………. and read this post in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn.
End of topic for good, no further correspondence will be entered into.
Poppins: “That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.”
Seriously, though, trying to follow comments here has become a bit of a joke – and that’s coming from the poor sap who tries to run the site. We’re trying to use WordPress comments to (and please don’t splutter out your cornflakes when I say the word) collaborate, and the mechanism is simply not up to the task.
To be fair, that’s true of WordPress in just about every sense – it’s a hacky blogging platform that got popular, but has become a bit of a zombie app, i.e. even though it’s dead, it still keeps stumbling forward.
And no, like just about everyone on Twitter, I don’t have a proper Plan B yet.
@ Mr Nowak
It’s a joy indeed to see your appearance here as one of the Three Voices of Steve! I look forward to reading your contributions! Sorry, nothing useful from me today, I am deeply engaged in the domestic arts, as usual.
ABC this morning:
‘What a find’: Unseen photos of Somerton Man found inside old family photo albums revealed
More photos & the Ciphermysteries favourite is indeed Charlie!
Anyone still remember John Barkly Bennett, some like Steve H. who had some interesting albeit second stuff to say about his wife and family. Well before his blurb that Dr. John had set up his shingle in the small town of Wagin W.A., I had reported on this hasty post SM departure from Adelaide without the fanfare. Cut to the chase, in 1952, John went into practice with Dr. Gerald Clayton, a Swiss born Brit. of similar age and credentials but, with background of service to H.M. George VI (nnww)….Now that Bob Nowak is back, I’ll hand over to him and Steve H. to see what they might come up with on Gerald’s post partnership work for QE2. Should they get bogged down, they might call on one of our resident experts in Peter Davidson if he can take time away from other important contributions.
@ Jo
I’ve told you… 😇
They are still peddling the suicide theory which frankly whichever way i look at does not fit in the sequence of events of that day or the scarce evidence they have. It is an easy conclusion but not the right one
Robert Nowak: regarding my post to you @ Steve H. on 9th inst., of which there have been other discussions with Poppins of late; In essence you are spot on in how I happened upon two unrelated items of a certain genealogical nature from S.A. archives. However you seem to have neglected to mention earlier posts in which I made it abundantly clear that Beryl Shahinger of SA Genealogical society was ‘in our corner’ so to speak. Some years ago I had, through the same helpful personage located the son of Chemist Freeman’s next door neighbour who had died on 1/12/48 like Jerry Somerton and was buried at West Terrace after a delay with cause of death determination. The man’s Son Robert Shahinger turns out to be boss of the SA Vietnam Veterans Association; my own unit having been S.A. based, old members and pals of mine are members under his directorship,…So where were we Bob.. oh yeah..Beryl Shahinger as I mentioned is most obliging as are all the good people under her own guidance. You might call them if you’re havng any problems but, a reminder that the special searches are no longer free unless you have a DVA Gold Card, which you don’t (checked) unfortunately.
….you might also contact Bob Shahinger if in need of varification however, Bob being a straight shooting take no prisoners veteran, does not suffer fools or Para. Schizos.
*contango* – “collaborate”. *giggles*
Really, Nick, you site is open to everyone (no need to have a wordpress site) and open-hearted, easily searched and even years later yr posts and comments are helpful on so many topics.
None of the constant-loss characteristic of forums, none of the ‘no way to respond’ of most websites. Of course, if you find a better-than-wordpress option, do tell.
Poppins: I was just scrolling down through to-days offerings so’s I wouldn’t miss anything know what I mean and happened to spot your mention of Dr Seuss [sic]. Thought at first it was a reference to Swiss born psycho analyst Dr. B. Clayton who had partnered John B. Bennett in Wagan WA and of whom I had just posted though not yet on the board ???. Things only got more confusing with Mensa…..Mensahib? (Sahib) then ending with Foghorn (ship) and Leghorn (chook)…..if you’re trying to drive me nuts?…..you’re too late mate!
Don’t know why some people are assuming that I’m this “obnoxious, ignorant and entitled” Steve H fellow. Sorry “Joanna”, I don’t know who you are, although I welcome your joy at my appearance here. Jamie W seems to have got it completely right in his Nov 13 diatribe against that deluded buffoon Mr H, who obviously still believes that SM committed suicide. What a dupe! I propose that Charlie was mistaken for Adolf Eichmann and taken out by a precursor of Mossad.
Unfortunately since my attention was drawn to the fact that my name was being taken in vain by that sly old fox Slanders I have wasted a day looking into this sad case. I’ve even just watched the Australian Story thing on YouTube. The only thing I learned from that is that Rachel Egan wants to get rid of the pictures of Charlie and Jessica. Can’t blame her! Who wants images of a wife beater or a woman who boringly married the father of her child on their walls? Not me.
Also I can’t see any resemblance between the Charlie in the family photos and the scrawny little kid in the footy photo, which was taken around the same time if I am correct. But that’s my problem.
Before I go I did pick up one point in my investigation of this wretch Steve H (who I can confirm seems to have been pretending to be a woman called Ann O) and his narcissistic, whiny periphrases. He is correct for once when he stated a while back that no-one has followed up a lead on a Dorothy Jean King who died in NSW in 1991 and whose parents were called John and Alice:
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/result?3
I myself am a total tightwad so won’t be forking out to follow this up or my earlier link to a Dorothy Jean D’Arcy! I’m reliably informed that Nick P is a billionaire after his career as a games developer and I know for a fact that Slanders himself made a fortune as a mercenary in three separate African civil wars. Open your wallets lads!
Whoever was responible for touching up the 1920’s? Webb family pics needs to consider the possible legal ramifications, likewise those who claimed them as the genuine article and put them on display knowing them to be fake. As for the fools that be nonetheless happy to accept them as the real McCoy and thus satified with the Australia Story presentation of same, need to have their flamin’ heads read.
John Sanders,
Bruce J Bennett, Dr John Barkley Bennett’s son is active upon geni.com
Why don’t you put your questions directly to him?
Regards
Peter Davidson
PS John Sanders,
I doubt very much if Dr Clayton was anywhere in the same league of habitually killing his patients as Lord Dawson of Penn if that’s what your intimating.
Anyone else, who’s unaware, Lord Dawson committed regicide of George V
https://youtu.be/fTWpOADZPGk
Regards
Peter-Davidson
Peter Davidson,
Many thanks for the tip on Dr. John Barkly Bennett’s son Bruce. I’m not sure on Dr. Clayton’s record but, yeah I doubt he was up there with the likes of Lord Dawson of Penn or the bloke from Transylvania. Cheers js
Steve H has asked me to point out that he has nothing to say about the recent comments from Bob Nowak. After his spat with Jamie W he had to repair to a convalescent home in Swanage on the south coast of England where he is not expected to make a full recovery for several months, if ever.
For myself I would like to point out that I made the discovery that Nan Sparrow was a neighbour of Jo Thomson on Moseley Street, not Steve! In his feeble and disordered mind he believes that I am a mere figment of his imagination or an “alter-ego”. Bob Nowak has swallowed this ignis fatuus hook. line and sinker.
Peter D =
Any connection between Margaret Langley and Norman Webb’s wife Lois Langley?
(Probably not but given your research, you would know.)
WordPress limitations and all…How about starting a new thread about the ABC program and the new pics now Nick? Might be a helpful way for us all to sort our way out of the 250 + string on comments on the two or three threads we have all been posting on?
Your house. Do as you please of course.
Hi Misca,
It seems it’s either unlikely or it’s a longer path.
As Lios’s family goes further back than Margaret’s and an intersection is yet to be made. I’ll have to build a copy of their tree on Geni.com to see if and how they’re related. I’ve made a start if anyone is willing to add to it to get an answer much faster.
https://www.geni.com/people/Lois-Webb/6000000189132529851
Here is how far apart Margaret is to Carl at the moment
https://www.geni.com/path/Margaret-Cohen+is+related+to+Carl-Webb-AKA-Somerton-Man?from=6000000176179746936&path_type=inlaw&to=6000000129853684907
The shortest party is via Dorothy Robertson.
Misca.
I just completed the short path.
Here it is.
https://www.geni.com/people/Carl-Webb-AKA-Somerton-Man/6000000129853684907?through=6000000186161792115
Regards
Peter-Davidson
@ Punters all
I had a quick look at nephew Charles Webb’s WWII service file again this morning as I remembered there was a photograph in it. (Norman Frederick Webb’s airforce file has not been digitised).
I wondered if the family photograph shown on Australian Story was taken around Camperdown, as it was handed down through Norman Webb’s family. I thought it could be a combined Webb/Tompkinson family photo and wondered if Charles and Norman were on it… I’m not sure, but Charles jnr definitely resembles the other Webb men.
A couple of things stood out at a second read:
– Russell Webb is listed as Charles’ NOK, living at 97 Punt Road in the early 1940s before moving to Eltham and Ringwood. This address is very close to Domain Road and Red Point Tool Company (97 Punt Road is now part of the Freemason’s aged care home complex).
– Charles Webb is described as having fair hair and blue eyes when he signs up, but has somehow become a bloke with dark hair and brown eyes when he is later discharged as medically unfit! (Broken foot and back problems). His noted scar has crept its way up from his leg to his back…
HIs occupation on signing up is fruitery – this could be nearby Prahran Market, or there was also a Greek owned fruit shop (Kallinikos – operating from the 1930s until the 1990s) next door to Jack Keane’s referee who was at 154 Toorak Road – Beard’s grocery and bottle shop. Charles’ wife has a Southern European name – Paparina Maria. The Punt Road address basically fits a picture where members of the extended Webb/Gavey family are active in and around Prahran in the late 1930s/early 1940s but then dispersed (or sadly deceased) during the war years.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=6605503&S=2&N=6&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6605503&T=P&S=6
@ The Three Voices of Steve – I’d also seen Dorothy Jean King on NSW BDM but wondered if the death date, 1991, was too early. There is also a Dorothy Paterson, who died in 1981 – I don’t know if this is the same Dorothy Paterson as the one spotted by Pat. We’re a bit hampered by the NSW BDM 1992 cut off date and the family reporting a late 1990s date of death … Maybe I’ll fork out and follow up the SA D’Arcy marriage lead… BTW – have you actually read the Stepford Wives? If so, you’d be familiar with the “protagonist”, Joanna, not to be confused with Joanne Woodward, who won her oscar for those three Eves (with out the St) and none of whom should be confused with me – there’s enough chaos and confusion here!
I have lots of faith In RichardD finding something interesting! He think he is working on the 1926 Bute murder case – Hannah “Ollie” Commons, accused of poisoning her employer/lover’s fiance, Rita Rapke! But the town supports Ollie. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/55022316
@ RichardD: Looking forward to seeing your work!
Misca,
Sorry, I meant to repost the original link. The shortest path is no longer via Dorothy Robertson, but through the person that you mentioned. However, even that is not what you probably are expecting either.
Regards
Peter
A Dorothy Jean King, parents’ names John and Alice Catherine , died in NSW in 1991. The NSW BDM registration number is 203787/1991.
A possibility for Dorothy Jean Robertson?
NSW death records are only available after 30 years so only up until November 1992 is online currently.
There is no death notice listed on the Ryerson Index which is a shame as these notices often include info that can be helpful for determining if it’s the right person.
I found Dorothy Jean King on FindaGrave. Buried at Orange Cemetery. Birth date 28 Feb 1920, death date 28 June 1991. This is different to Dorothy Jean Robertson’s birth date of 18 July 1920. So it’s not her.
Jo:
Great find regarding nephew Charles… I might actually be inclined to say that he is present in the family photo, as the boy in the very front!
Peter Davidson –
Thanks so much for taking the time to look into a possible Langley connection. I was hopeful but it doesn’t seem likely.
While we may know who SM is; we still haven’t found a tangible connection to either Jessica or Prosper. That’s why I was asking; in case the link provided a possible framework to connect Jessica’s close friend to the Webb/Keane clan.
The Ryerson Index, an index of death-related notices in Australia, includes 136 women named Dorothy Jean who died in NSW between 1995 and 1999. Some of these can be eliminated because they are too old or too young (where an age is given). Some can be eliminated due to duplication. The surnames Robertson, Webb, Darcy and Lockyer do not appear. They actual notices could be looked up but as we don’t have much detail to check in them (really only parents’ names) I am not sure whether that will achieve much.
Misca,
There’s always that sibling or partner that is yet to be put on the family tree, who might just well be the link that joins the dots, so to speak.
Thanks for making me work upon that Langley and Tomkinson sections.
There’s a couple of interesting closely related marriages that would indicate to me that if there’s any genetic abnormalities they would most likely show up in Charles, rather than Carl. So I’m thinking that if Carl Webb is indeed SM then whatever was wrong with him isn’t genetic.
@John Sanders RE: Webb family pics. Prof Abbott asked for links to the originals as proof (they were given for the unaltered posted pics only). The altered pics eventually were posted as linked to saved searches on PIMEYES Website.
Jo:
Most of younger Charles’ records are no longer viewable when I click on your link; I wonder what happened? Tried searching for them myself but to no avail. Hope they’ll be back up again soon!
@ Peter Davidson,
I don’t know if Carl had a genetic condition that could have contributed to his demise, but the lack of incisors is definitely a congenital and probably genetic trait that runs in the family.
@pat , rather than congenital , it was notd that cw had a lot of missing teeth….may be just tooth decay
@ em
If he only had missing teeth I would agree, but the lack of the upper lateral incisors is a very specific trait and they are the amongst the teeth that are most often congenitally missing, although present in only around 2% of the population. Moreover, at least 3 of Russell’s descendants have the trait and they are our contemporaries, so the tooth decay explanation doesn’t apply.
@curio,
if you search pimeyes with Charles from the family pic another young boy appears. MXFACE says he is a doppelganger – or the original. But he does not match with the young Carl.
It could be the young boy is the real Charlie and young Carl in the football team is the real Carl.
@John Sanders RE: 1964 Dorothy Jean marriage to Michael Peter D’arcy. News article “HOWSE – D’ARCY -The marriage of Dorothy Jean to Michael Peter will be solemnised at the Catholic Church Woodville Gardens on 7th November”. SA Genealogy did not show the name of the newspaper because I am not a member.
@Sonya RE: Dorothy Jean King the inscription on the grave is on Find a Grave “(Dorothy Jean KING, 28.2.1920 – 28.6.1991, Mum – Nan, Deep in our hearts you will always stay loved and remebered every day.)” The birth date does not match Dorothy Jean Robertson’s birth date.
Curio: thanks for your welcome input. Seems that another Dorothy Jean bites the dust..and the bride’s surname has now appeared on the S.A. Genealogy board. HOWES that for service?
@ Jamie
Try name NAA Name Search:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/NameSearch.aspx
WEBB CHARLES :
WWII Records
Service Number – V185698
I don’t think he is the boy in the foreground of the photo. I think the two young people could be Norman Frederick (b1921) and Doris Amy Webb (b1919) (who married VFL footballer Norm Tomkinson). The very young girl could be Ethel Elizabeth Webb (b 1926)
Jo:
They did seem to be well and truly missing but have since come back up again, so no worries! Thanks!
Not sure if you’ve seen my latest post to the Tamam Shud / Somerton Man thread (which lists the possibilities for each child’s ID as I understand them), but I do believe that your guesses are good ones! I agree from what I know that the boy in the front is likely one of Russell’s. The fellow behind Eliza could also be a kid, and I’m thinking it might be Jack. The features are a better match than with Leo’s or Charles’, in my opinion, and though his face is very slim compared to that of the Jack we know, testosterone is one helluva thing!
It’s very odd that his description changes so drastically; the hair colour might be possible but the eye colour makes no sense. It’s as though someone else went in for the medical exam?
misca & Jo:
The apparent change in eye color is strange, but not impossible. Since (like the sky or bodies of water) blue eyes aren’t actually pigmented blue, the color that they do appear can vary a lot depending on the lighting. I once had someone call my own blue eyes brown, straight to my face. We were in a dim room, which would have added the extra problem of pupil dilation: less of my irises would have been visible for them to judge the color of.
Perhaps whoever made the later assessment of Charles did so under similar conditions. Or maybe there was simply a recording error on one occasion or the other? I’ve also heard that eye color can sometimes genuinely change, even in adulthood (although I imagine that something as drastic as going from blue to brown would be very rare). So there could be a few not-so-fishy explanations for the discrepancy.
grey eyes can often appear blue one minute then brown the next.
Another fun fact long term phenobarbital use is linked to low fertility.
Thanks @curio. Yes that’s what my post said too – it’s not her.
Some ophthalmologist eye drops have been known to change blue eyes to brown over over a period of time and it’s irreversible. Ganfort a case in point.
@ Peter Davidson – what was the connection between Peter Sher & Major Sydney Hunn?
23 August 1940
Charles Webb enlisted for war service. Date of birth 25 January 1917, single and lists his father as R Webb living at 97 Punt Street, Prahan. Medical notes also dated in 1940 state “Disability in muscular movements, atrophy left testicle (?). (Interesting likely co-incidence, the medical officer who signs is A Robertson).
It’s unclear as to whether or not he was accepted for military duty at that time as the same original two page form appears to be used again when Charles signs the oath of enlistment dated 11 September 1942. Prahan is scratched out and Caulfield is now the place of enlistment.
Other adjustments made to these two pages of Mobilization Attestation Forms include an update for his father’s address – Maisa Road, Eltham, an update to his own address 9 Kendall Road Ringwood (which is where he lives with Paparina after they get married.). There is also an additional medical note dated 11/9/42 that states “Disability L foot following fracture Also” that is signed by John Mitchell.
On The Service and Casualty Form he is listed as a storeman (Fruitery). His Medical classification is A2 with Hair-Fair, Eyes-Blue. Scars Right Leg and Thigh. This same form notes his marriage to Paparina and the 9 Kendall address.
On 16 August 1943 he is evacuated to 115 General Hospital, Heidelberg for backache and his medical classification is changed from “A2” to “D”.
On 23 August 1943 he is discharged. The discharge is signed on 20 September of that year. With the note that he is Medically unfit, Age 25, Complexion-Dark, Eyes-Brown, Hair-Dark. Scar on back. 349 days service (including service abroad?) 9 Kendall Street address.
It’s all very odd. It looks like an incomplete file. The data provided supports that this is Russell’s son Charles Richard Webb who marries Paparina but could it be possible that someone else showed up for the medical exam that enabled his discharge? Did that sort of thing happen? Would this have provided him with some sort of a pension?
“Disability in muscular movements, atrophy left testicle (?) – At such a young age? What could have caused this?
More questions than answers unfortunately.
The 1943 electoral rolls for Paparina and Charles show them living together at 9 Kendall Street before they were married. “Poppy” was a florist.
Perhaps when Charles enlisted, he had never used/seen formal documents that included his middle name? He most definitely had one when he and Poppy got married as can be seen by their marriage certificate:
Name: Chas Richd Webb
[Chas Rich Webb]
Gender: Male
Marriage Registration Year: 1943
Marriage Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
Spouse: Paparina Maria Divola
Reference Number: 4620
The last electoral roll I can find for them, they are still living together in 1977. At that point they are living at Ballarto Road, Cranbourne South, Victoria. Charles is a farmer. (This assumes that they did not have a son also named Charles Richard Webb which is possible of course.)
Poppy died 12 September 2013. I have not found a death record for Cjharles.
Guys, please…
If he had missing lateral incisors then he was Robin’s dad or uncle.
If he had rotten teeth then he was misca’s man.
Personally I think he was the Colonel’s baby daddy and the true mother of the Beaumonts.
The Chipmunks may still be related. We won’t know until a DNA test is completed on all parties.
Many thanks to misca for the research.
Paparina… poppy.
Papaver somniferum. Opium poppy.
@ Misca – i agrée – it’s a very strange file! The first address (also Russell Webb’s home??) at 97 Punt Road is very close to where Joe Gavey lived (as per Ruby’s obituary for him in 1951), at 29 Greville Street Prahran. This is also not too far from Bromby Street (20 mins walk) & Red Point Tool Co.
Poppy’s dad, Domenico, was a migrant from Italy.
If the Webb family were playing this game of other people turning up for their enlistment/conscription – with medical conditions then who is the person in the picture?
We know Roy was Roy at least.
@ David Morgan- I’m sure the photo is who it’s supposed to be – Charles Richard Webb, but the person described in the discharge notes seems to be someone else. It could be an army error… or a decoy on the day… it is quite odd!
I remember that Pat found some probable references a while ago to what was likely to have been Charles Richard playing Army billiards in Melbourne’s Inner South… I think it was Army vs Airforce…
The medical notes mention varicose veins and then a back injury, there is also a foot fracture.
yes Roy was always Roy, poor sod and definitely his brother’s keeper
David –
I don’t think that the wrong person was showing up for enlistment but that maybe someone else might have shown up for the medical discharge. I also don’t mean to suggest that the whole family was doing it; it’s simply a question relating to this particular file. The physical differences between enlistment and discharge are remarkable.
Jo –
Lol. It’s “Dominico” most of the time on his records. Terrible. Also, there are two (yes 2) with the same mis-spellings, both working in similar businesses in Victoria. I haven’t sorted them out yet but I think they may be relatives. Paparina’s father marries Myrtle May Wilson/Clements and he is buried with her and their son Angelo (who died young) at:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/212596530/domenico-divola?_gl=1*j7vtkd*_ga*MTUwMjA1NzY0Ni4xNjYxMzY5Mzg4*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2OTU3NTM0Mi4yMTYuMS4xNjY5NTkxNTgxLjU5LjAuMA..
The other one married a Laura Lexa Curtis. He is buried here:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/211552522/dominico-divola?_gl=1*1hsnzk7*_ga*MTUwMjA1NzY0Ni4xNjYxMzY5Mzg4*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2OTU3NTM0Mi4yMTYuMS4xNjY5NTkxNzU5LjM0LjAuMA..
Ayuverdicus: whilst you’re busy fitting all the revolving Webb family pieces together, you’ll be pleased to know that our new Somerton Man suspect Charles Richard Webb, Poppy’s man, had his brother-in-law Joe Divola living at Oakands Park, half a click from Jim B’s pistol packin’ brother Max in 1966.
Does anyone know whether Carl’s DNA data is in the public domain?
It is just that his DNA age could be calculated to confirm he was about 43. It is fairly accurate +/-3.
https://www.oncology.ox.ac.uk/blog/calculating-age-with-dna
Also, his hair could be analyzed to determine his last location. I wonder why this test wasn’t done before.
https://www.npr.org/2008/02/26/19357324/hair-samples-used-to-trace-movement
This is a colorised image of Charles Richard Webb aged about 25.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mtnX1wBWs2dOk6c6EeyPfVhEjx9PZJvE/view?usp=sharing
Does he have brown or blue eyes, dark or fair hair? He didn’t know himself from his NAA record.
Jo,
I would not trust any army documents. I was helping a relative by marriage document their family tree and discovered that a member of the family had been “removed” from the Kokoda Track and the army by the payment of bribes to the officials handling the army records. I don’t know if the individual wanted that action, but the family wanted him back and they had influence through the criminal milieu involved in illegal gambling in Sydney. The milieu called themselves “the forty thieves”.
A few years later I discovered that “Mr Sin” Abe Saffron was convicted of a stealing offence during WW2 and managed to sweet talk the authorities into cutting a deal in lieu of jail time. So, Abe got to work in Army records. What a nice, not so little, earner that must have been. Incidentally Abe’s uncle was a justice in the NSW Supreme court. Why am I not surprised?
So, the bottom line is probably the Gangsters with connections to army record clerks could work magic, such as changing eye colour and anything else you wanted, for a fee.
Don’t get me wrong, Col. I’m quite intrigued by your Beaumont theory. I don’t believe for a second that three children were led away from that packed beach by ‘Jane’s boyfriend’ using Mr Wenzel’s succulent pasties with the pound note. The whole thing reeks of shit.
Why don’t you go watch David and get one of his empty coke cans from the bin & run an ancestry test on it? I’ll do the same with the ‘artist’ from Scamberra if you like. We can meet at the bar of the Rex with Nick and compare our findings.
I’ll show you the worlds ugliest birthmark on the side of my face.
I love you, Daddy.
Daddddddddddyyyyyy.
Why did that stupid, Bexed up trout send three babies to the beach on the bus? Too fagged to walk them down? Or part of the ruse?
Anyone ever ask her?
MK ultra.
There you go AV. You me, Pelling and Westy along with the best and the brightest for planning the next big push against the bad guys. Shades of ’68 with the five o’clock follies at Rex garden bar. Lowly bird Colonels weren’t invited to these select ‘making of a quagmire’ sessions, but a rather fitting title for our current plottings & brewings nonetheless.
I have recently been supplied with the record of divorce for Geoffrey and Dorothy. There are a number of interesting details contained in the document.
It states they were married on 22nd December 1952 at the Methodist Parsonage at Kadina. This is 12 months after Dorothy had given birth to a stillborn child. It states Geoffrey was from WA and chose to live in SA. There were no children living under 18 years of age.
The Order Absolute for Dissolution of Marriage was granted on 3rd November 1955. The series of events leading up to this is: Writ served on 14th April, 1955 with Dorothy to respond by 27th June – no defence by Dorothy lodged. An order NISI was granted on 2nd August and then confirmed on 3rd November. It is interesting to note that Dorothy was in the Wallaroo Hospital from 17th to 22nd April having her appendix removed, just after the writ was served!
What I didn’t expect to see was that it was Geoffrey who filed for divorce and not Dorothy and that he states that Dorothy “had been guilty of habitual cruelty to the plaintiff for one year and upwards”. It appears that Dorothy didn’t respond so the Court was satisfied that the allegations were correct and so approved the divorce application.
A copy of the Order Absolute can be seen on my post on the “Identifying the Somerton Man” Facebook page (assuming my post is approved of course) . The full file was read by Beryl from SA Genealogy and she advises there is no other information of interest, in particular there are no further details about the nature of the “cruelty” as there was in Dorothy’s divorce application from Carl Webb. And there was no mention of Dorothy’s possible new address mentioned either.
It is interesting to put some dates to the events in Dorothy’s life in South Australia. Unfortunately, there are no clues as to her next movements so for the moment her trail goes cold until some new breakthrough occurs.
@ RichardD
Thanks! Very interesting! ‘Habitual cruelty’… I wonder if there is a legal definition in Australia for this term, hence it didn’t need to be elaborated on the divorce documents?
probably sheds a bit more light on the dynamics between Dorothy and Carl….. Dorothy was habitually cruel and cw reacts and viceversa.
https://www.robertmenziesinstitute.org.au/on-this-day/no-fault-divorce
@ Richard – well done, again!
@ Pat – indeed, cruelty was one of the grounds for divorce at that time. No fault divorce was only introduced in 1975, under the Whitlam government, with some progress made in 1959 – see link.
There are a couple of other interesting things:
– a five year separation was grounds for divorce – this may have affected the timing of Dorothy’s divorce from Charlie & also some of the dates she details – eg living separately but under the same roof in 1946, date of last intercourse January 1946; filing for divorce in 1951
– you had to be married for three years to be able to apply for a divorce – so for Geoff, three years after 1952.
Poor Dorothy! I imagine she didn’t reply as she was keen to see the marriage ended too!
Great find RichardD, very interesting indeed! Wow, a divorce date and an allegation of Dorothy being the villain in the marriage, h’mm, and no contest! Would be interesting to know what the habitual cruelty was …. apparently constantly criticising and nagging, abusing, all come within the meaning of ‘habitual cruelty.’
PeterBowes: Makes you wonder whether your darling Doff came under notice of police during her short marriage to Geoffrey Lockyer. It would not surprise that some serious event occurred to enable the divorce to be dealt with so speadily and uncontested at that. Perhaps poor Carl’s character assassination at the hands of your good self and other dedicated Dorothy supporters might now be in need of some serious revision. I never doubted that the woman was capable of murder, fortunately for Geoff, he escaped with his life…It might be noted that Dorothy’s hospitalisation soon after service of the disolusion writ was in all likelihood a ruse to gain sympathy or some other deception. Reason being that humans are born with only one appendix and my take on Dorothy’s phys. Is that hers was already gone by then.
I’m not surprised by the divorce, what intrigues me is how Dorothy & Geoff might have met in the first place. I wonder whether they met in SA or WA, whether Dorothy was visiting someone – eg the Kadina Robertsons or trying to find Charlie… I wonder whether there are any details in the divorce record…
@peterbowes, it could be but usually in abuse relationships it is very easy to bring the so called baggage with you in terms of repeating the same patterns. It might be that Dorothy was suffering with bdp , maybe both were, maybe drugs had a part to play, either way we might never know. What we do know is that Carl and Doffs marriage was dysfunctional , usually bot parties are to blame.
I’m wondering if Doff and Geoff met in Perth, in 1950, when Doff was working as a swim wear model? It seems like his thing, possibly hers if she had been a physical culture girl…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47842191?searchTerm=dorothy%20robertson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47883612?searchTerm=dorothy%20robertson
I prefer the hat fashions of the 20s, with Freda’s chic cloche hat, rather than Mrs Charmaine Finkle’s get up, which features “a whole pheasant” resting on the front of it!!
Jo: can’t recall any Mrs. or Mesdame Robertson being connected with this case, If you mean Robertson, though you may find that a Robertson was employed at the Warrigal and/or Moonta hospitals about the same time ie., 1950.
If you think I’m on again about some ridiculous collusion between cousins Dorothy Webb nee Robertson and Dr. John Bennett in the suspicious death of Somerton Man, you’re Goddam’ right I am!. If anyone is at all interested they can find more compelling evidence in the signature at bottom of the ’55 decree nisi document; That is if they had been following discussions between Steve H. and myself re the Nadine Bennett nee Sparrow family connection.
@ JS – having a pheasant’s mount on one’s bonnet is surely evidence of cruelty?
@John Sanders The Mrs G. Lockyer from your post Trove link in 1952 advertising South Australian Scottish Association piping and teaching dancing is for Olive Grace Allen married to George Edward Lockyer 1935 (1941 Electoral Roll record and family trees). There is no information about any cousin relationship to Geoffrey A Lockyer.
Jo, I’d love for that to be a photo of Dorothy, it’s highly possible they met in WA and then moved to Bute, it would make sense. The Mrs could have been a printing error, of course, or she was faking being a Robertson widow, a lott of possibilities. However, found this from 1954 with Dorothy Robertson modelling, it’s probably the same one, so unfortunately not likely to be our Dotty who was in SA at the time and was Mrs Lockyer.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59694629?searchTerm=perth%20dorothy%20robertson
Who was husband No.3 …. wonder if it was third time lucky with Mr D’Arcy, or he’s still way in the distance in the line of husbands to come.
Curio: you’re right on the money and the facebook post may well have been a false lead that RichardD sorted out for us. The G.E. Lockyer’s actually lived at York from ’40 to ’53 and nearby Alberton before that. Another G. E. also bn. 1911/12 died in early infancy while yet another George Edward, that I mentioned previously lived further south around Merino and was cleared after a check of his arrival records.
John Sanders
I thought of you whilst I was reading a selection of Dylan Thomas’ short stories the other day – in particular ‘A Story’ (imaginative title eh?) about a charabanc trip to Porthcawl, a small Welsh seaside resort.
This is the passage that set me thinking:
“They stopped at the Hermit’s Nest for a rum to keep out the cold. ‘I played for Aberavon in 1898,’ said a stranger to Enoch Davies.
‘Liar,’ said Enoch Davies.
‘I can show you the photos,’ said the stranger.
Forged,’ said Enoch Davies.
‘And I’ll show you my cap at home.’
‘Stolen.’
‘I got friends to prove it,’ the stranger said in a fury.
‘Bribed’, said Enoch Davies.”
I might call you Enoch in future me old mate.
@Jo The Trove photograph of Mrs. Dorothy Robertson is really for Dorothy Stirling McDonald born about 1916 wife of Austin Patrick Robertson born 21 November 1908 Middle Park, Victoria, Australia, but residence Perth on his WWII record. On Ancestry dot com there is a wedding photograph on a public family tree matching the Dorothy from the Trove photograph, too.
Steve H. Doing a re-cap. and found a particularly vile posting under your by-line of 15/11 which may well have been on orders of Gordon Cramer. Most of the post quoted GC himself and worth re-appraisal as a caution to others against having dealings with John Sanderrs [sic]. Pity the good stuff about darky Webb and all the paedophilia affillations from the original ‘anemptyglass’ web site were left out. Before getting on with the main thread relevant part, I also just happened on the first mention of Leslie Scott’s missing hand filed under my name on 14/11. How about that for a pay back of sorts; bet you knew mugger.
On 9/11 (not that one mind) Angela, in response to my initial disclosure, posted on Dorothy’s week long period of hospitalisation for an appendix removal. My take on what she was admitted for was in reality to correct a prior operative bungle which had created problematic internal scaring adhesions and, that the afforesaid removal was mire or less a convenient ‘while I’m at it’ decision by the surgeon. I’m thinking therefore it is most probable that our Dorothy’s 1951 still birthing event was by way of cessarian section leaving her with an ongoing and painful recovery. In that Geoff Lockyer was in Adelaide celebrating New Year’s ’52 while she was likely stuck at home alone in Bute fuck and in pain, no wonder the poor woman gave the prick a rough time thereafter until he’d had enough of her and left.
yep and posthumously she is researched as being a possible suspect in the poisoning of her husband. Just let her RIP already. poor woman.
I have requested a photo of Dorothy Davis’ grave at Findagrave but her grave is not at the place indicated.
The details available are consistent with what we know about Dorothy Jean’s burial site and date of birth/death, so where is she?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/123408429/dorothy-davis
Re that Trans-Australia passenger C. Webb arriving in Kalgoorlie in 1947, there’s also a C. Webb arriving on 14 January 1949 when Carl has expired and is no more. H’mm, a couple of possibilities. Could Carl have pre-booked a return ticket and his name is merely showing up on the manifest? Or (b) it wasn’t Carl. If there’s no other C. Webb’s appearing after this date, it’s pretty interesting. Will look into it with breaky.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95713848?searchTerm=kalgoorlie%20passengers%20c%20webb
Strike that, may it be stricken from the record thus to wit, Mesdames preceded the C. Webb in the January passengers list, it’s a lady Webb …. h’mm, it pays to read the whole article, lol ….
poppins
..Well spotted milady, had it in mind to break les damsels news meself in hopes of getting our steamed manulator back on side. PS did you search the Port Augusta Trans-Aust. reverse leg yet. Perhaps we could also have @ the dud check with his cream team on Trans Continental Express manifests.
Has anyone looked into a 1962 (Victoria ref 20140) wedding between Dorothy Jean Robertson and Trevor John Edward Laidlaw? It looks as though Trevor Laidlaw was born in 1905 and in 1946 he worked in the Personnel Practice Branch of the Industrial Welfare Division of the Victorian Public Service.
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/63f01c975658a3216f82534f/results?q=efamily
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232790396?searchTerm=Trevor%20john%20edward%20laidlaw
Another dead end – this Dorothy Jean Robertson was born Dorothy Jean Lynn, both she and Trevor died in 1989…
Can someone with access to Ancestry check out these NSW electoral roll entries for “Dorothy Jean Robertson”?
Cowper – 1954, 1963
North Sydney – 1958, 1963, 1968, 1972
Macarthur – 1958
Kingsford Smith – 1963
Mackellar – 1968, 1972, 1977, 1980
Hughes – 1968, 1977
Eden-Monaro – 1972, 1977, 1980
Werriwa – 1980
Berowra – 1980
Pat – give me a little while (snowed under with work). If someone doesn’t beat me to it I’ll see what I can find…
@ Pat
The first one – Cowper (Kyogle), is an error – the electoral roll entry is for Dorothy Jean Robinson, home duties; living with Allan Edward Robinson, electrical fitter. There is also a Dorothy Robertson in Kyogle, but not our Dorothy, this one passed a Catholic Schools Merit exam in 1941
@ Pat
The second one – for North Sydney seems to be married to Kevin Robertson. Maiden name Taylor; born January 1920, St Leonards, North Sydney, died Hornsby 2001.
@Jo,
Thanks 😊
@ Pat
Macarthur 1958 is Dorothy Jean Robertson of Palm Beach married to Douglas Gordon Robertson
Kingsford Smith 1963 is married to Robert Harrison Robertson
Eden Monaro – 50 Main Street 1972 then 34 Lake Street 1977 and 1980 Merimbula is worth another look!
There is a Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer getting divorced due to adultery with Iris Maggs in Western Australia November 1945 and 21st August 1953 fined for betting at the Henley Hotel, Henley Beach, couple of minutes from Somerton Beach and 144K away from his farm in Bute.
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/6l6grIW8Cf53
@ Jo,
Thanks!
There’s a Hubert Emile Barber (1905-1957) in New Zealand (Upper Hutt) who married a Dorothy Jean.
I don’t have MyHeritage subscription any more, If someone could check it out, I would appreciate it.
Hubert Emile Barber was a senior engineer at the Works Department in Mongakino (?) .
I couldn’t find any other family members.
His probate is available on FamilySearch, but there’s only one mention of wife Dorothy.
Both are mentioned in the Heretaunga Electoral Rolls living at 55 Fraser Crescent in Upper Hutt in 1960 (I’m assuming the publication was posterior to his death).
I know New Zealand is a long shot but that could explain why we can’t find anything about Dorothy Jean on Australian records.
Pat,
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/KZQB-J55
Shows Dorothy Jean Arthur.
@Pat Nah, we have wised up to you: spend your own money going down your own rabbit hole.
@ David Morgan, thanks! He is mentioned on Trove, quite a high-flyer.
@Curio, you should change your alias, you’re not curiou(s) at all.
@Pat,
Yes, the lack of curiousity in people perplexes me. Students in university never ask a question in 3 years and get first-class honors degrees. But what curiosity does that show? It means they stuck within the course guidelines and never deviated.
I wrote to the VP of my uni who claimed to be a Nancy Drew aficionado and I sent her a link to my Pyjama Girl investigation and her response was no response necessary. I would have had a better response from AI Claude.
This world of action and reaction without investigation is very boring. They seem to think their KPI is more important than thinking or adding value or being human.
I went off-piste to track down details of Dr Palmer Benbow and downloaded his medal record from Kew. It is amazing Australians still’ perceive PB as a fraudulent doctor involved in the Pyjama Girl mystery without researching his background:
– he trained in the US Jefferson medical college and was “the most worthy graduate” meaning he was quite bright.
– he was a member of the Royal College of Surgeons – meaning you had to be one to be a member.
– he worked onboard ships (had war medals for this service)
– he was a surgeon potentially operating on different war-fronts (Serbia, France) putting his life at risk over many years.
he worked for the Red Cross and was also in the UK operating on soldiers after WW1.
In my mind, he also invented facial ID but was ridiculed by newspapers and scientists saying that you couldn’t measure points on a face and determine identity.
It is sad that his curiosity led to ridicule that a modern Australian writer “Emma” a playwright labeled him a crank – possibly she only read the Trove articles by journalists and didn’t read the inquest.
@Pat,
Actually, Emma was quoting criminologist R. Evans so not her fault. without PB he wouldn’t have had an MA because the police would have had an open and shut case of murder by Tony. There would have been nothing to write about.
Biting the hand that fed you – comes to mind.
@ All (minus Curio)
Can someone check Dorothy Jean Darby (not Darcy) – Death Notice 19 May 1999 – Daily Telegraph Sydney – Funeral 20 May 1999? (from The Ryerson Index).
I couldn’t find her on FamilySearch and Ancestry.
I’ve been looking at all Dorothy Jean entries between 1995 and 1999, but I thought it’s possible that no death/funeral notice would exist for her if she died alone and someone had to contact Phyllis for money?
There aren’t many who would fit her age and location (NSW) but again, who would put a notice for her and in what newspaper? The person who contacted Phyllis or Phyllis herself? A NSW newspaper or a Melbourne newspaper where Phyllis lived?
@Pat,
Not to be trusted!!! but it may give leads – but Claude AI says:
Okay, with the additional detail that Dorothy Jean Darby’s funeral was on 20 May 1999, here is what I was able to find:
– An obituary in The Sydney Morning Herald on 15 May 1999 indicates Dorothy Jean Darby passed away on 12 May 1999 at the age of 68. She was the beloved wife of Jack Darby.
– The funeral notice states a service was held at Hansen & Cole Funerals, 520 Princes Highway Rockdale, on 20 May 1999.
– Some genealogy records give her full name as Dorothy Jean Darby (nee Williams) and birth year as 1930. This aligns with the reported age at death of 68 in 1999.
– Her home suburb appears to have been Arncliffe, as she lived at 49 Wollongong Road according to electoral roll records.
– Dorothy was born in New Zealand but moved to Australia after marrying Jack Darby in the 1950s. She worked as a secretary before having children.
– She was survived by husband Jack, three children (Peter, Anne and David Darby), and several grandchildren.
Let me know if you need any other details about Dorothy Jean Darby. I’m limited by the public information available, but hopefully this gives you some of the key facts around her passing in Sydney in 1999. I can try to search for more if you have any other leads to follow up.
Thanks Claude! Awesome, thank you David!
Thanks Claude! Awesome, thank you David!
There’s a marriage record on NSW 3923/1964 between John Charles Stanford and Dorothy Joan Lockyer, District Sydney, PDF readily available for 30 bucks.
@Curio, don’t buy it!
@David Morgan, can Claude AI tells us anything about her?
Also, on Ancestry someone has a private tree (I’m not a subscriber) saying Dorothy Jean Robertson, born in Victoria, died in NSW, had a spouse Howse.
I remember this has been mentioned here as a Howse-D’Arcy marriage. Michael Peter D’Arcy? Howse or Howes? Is this just one more false lead?
Claude says: [but can LIE!!!]
”
Unfortunately, I do not have direct access to New South Wales historical marriage records to look up the specific registration number you provided. However, I did some searching and found the following information:
There are marriage indexes that show a John C Stanford married a Dorothy J Lockyer in Sydney in 1964. The registration number is listed as 3923/1964.”
But don’t risk any money on it.
@David,
Thanks, but now I remember that someone bought the certificate and was very angry.
Another dead end.
Sorry if this one has already been investigated, it’s hard to search for old posts here.
DOROTHY JEAN DAWSON
Pharmacist qualified in Victoria May 1953, living in Karrinyup, Perth, WA in 1972.
https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/prod/gazettestore.nsf/FileURL/gg1972_025.pdf/$FILE/Gg1972_025.pdf?OpenElement
Happy birthday, Dorothy Jean Robertson/Webb/Lockyer/?!
I have found some interesting info on the Stratford family, I know most of you are not interested, but here it goes.
(Where are you Misca? I miss your input!)
I need to know a bit more about Louisa May Stratford who gave birth do Walter Charles Stratford in 1896 in Donald, just 23.8 km from Avon Plains where widow Louisa Wilhelmina Stratford was supposed to be living.
I haven’t been able to find anything about Louisa May or her son. The father’s name is “unknown” on the birth certificate 27317 / 1896.
(@Curio, unfortunately it’s very expensive to buy these certificates being in Brazil… so don’t shoot me)
Dorothy Jean’s mother, Alice Stratford, was born in the same year as Walter Charles, 1896, but in Fitzroy, far away from Avon Plains and Donald.
In January1896, the Stratford Brothers’ hotel and store in Avon Plains was destroyed by fire and the family received a £500 insurance.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199698847?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FO%2Ftitle%2F326%2F1896%2F01%2F18%2Fpage%2F21836691%2Farticle%2F199698847
Before that, in 1891, Henry Stratford, storekeeper, (supposed to be Alice’s brother) left Avon Plains to live in Hawthorn (Victoria Road).
He conveyed and assigned all his estate, property and effects, whasoever and wheresoever to Henry Butler, of 948 Fllinders St, Melbourne, warehouseman, in trust for realisation and otherwise for the benefit of all the creditors of the said Henry Stratford.
The agreement was drawn up in March 1889 but had some issues until it was finalised in 1891.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197168253?searchTerm=%22Henry%20stratford%22%20%22henry%20butler%22
His mother, Louisa Wilhelmina Stratford, was a midwife attending ladies at their homes, atlhough she didn’t have a register and was fined in Mildura in 1927 (Steve Hurwood’s find).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/258448190?searchTerm=%22louisa%20wilhelmina%20stratford%22
After the fire she must have gone to her son’s house in Hawthorn and that could explain why Alice was born in Fitzroy but alas, it doesn’t tell us anything about her parents.
Louisa (and probably Henry) moved to Mildura around 1916.
There are many notices (“Professional Card”) offering her nursing services at Lemon Av, c/o Mrs. H. Stratford.
Others say “Mrs L.W. Stratford is prepared to take in or go out as Ladies’ Nurse. Eight-st. Phone 247.” (The Mildura Cultivator, Oct 7, 1916).
I have already posted about Miss A. Stratford singing and acting in a duo in Mildura in 1917. Probably Alice, there weren’t many Stratfords around at that time.
The Mildura Telegraph and Darling and Lower Murray Advocate (Vic. : 1913 – 1920)
Tue 18 dez 1917
Page 2
“THE COUNTRY GIRL.”
The lighter element were entrust
ed to Miss A. Stratford- (Madame
Sophie) and Barry (Mr. F. White)
and the choice was keenly appreciat
ed by the audience, which gave Sophie
and Barry unstinted applause, their
duet ‘Chick, Chick,’ being especially
well rendered. Both Barry and Sophie
give evidence of exceptional talent
for humorous acting, and became
warm favorites of the audience be
fore the fall of the final curtain.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154309789?searchTerm=%22miss%20a.%20stratford%22
I would like to know a bit more about Louisa May Stratford who had a son, in Donald, no husband, and seems to have disappeared from the face of the Earth along with her son.
Could Alice be related to this ‘other’ Louisa? Could Louisa Wilhelmina have been the attending midwife in Donald? Maybe Walter Charles had a twin sister?
I know this may be just an exercise of investigation with no importance to the Somerton Man mystery, but I am curious and I am unemployed atm. Poor me.
I think ‘Louisa May’ could be Louisa Wilhelmina’s daughter Mary Georgina Louisa Stratford, who married Walter James Ford.
Walter Charles is not listed as her son on her family history (FamilySearch, Ancestry), but the fact that her husband’s first name is Walter and her father’s name is Charles rings a bell.
Their marriage date is listed as 1897 (139/1897).
The husband’s name on Walter Charles Stratford’s birth certificate is ‘unknown’, so maybe they were avoiding a ‘scandal’?
Anyway, I can’t find Walter Charles anywhere.
Found him.
Charles Walter Ford, death record 2832 / 1974, son of Mary Georgina Stratford and Walter James Ford, born in Donald and died in Orbost, aged 77.
Thanks for reading!
Henry Mason Stratford was Louisa Wilhelmina’s brother-in-law.
He died in Hawthorn in 1911, (Vic BDM 9268 /1911) although the death notice says he died at his residence ‘Strathmore’ in Avon Plains.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11615517?searchTerm=%22henry%20stratford%22
He married Marian Taylor in 1882.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138644312?searchTerm=%22henry%20stratford%22
They had a stillborn girl in 1884, no other offspring, apparently.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198554656?searchTerm=%22henry%20stratford%22
@pat,
Have you followed the thread on Familysearch.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/L2HR-RYF
She seems to have a good pedigree of a Lord and a Sir. One line ends up in Northamptonshire.
I am in the unemployed graduate club before State Pension club. But I was discussing a role as an actor.. I will demand all the Smarties are red in my dressing room.
“But Pat, keep doing what you do best…”
Hi David,
Yes, I have been following the family tree on FamilySearch (mostly Angela’s amazing contributions), but none of these data are there. I will contribute as soon as I have all the information gathered in one place. I’m quite disorganised! Thanks for the support, very appreciated, and welcome to the club…
This was posted on a RootsWeb Mailing List that unfortunately closed on April this year.
Charles Alexander Stratford arrived in Melbourne in 1853. His brothers Henry Stratford and Edward Stratford arrived about the same time. After carrying goods to gold miners in the Castlemaine area they settled at Avon Plains, west of St Arnaud. Charles married Louisa Reither and they had 10 children Charles and Henry had a store and an hotel at Avon Plains, which were destroyed by fire on 15 January 1895. Charles died in 1892 and his wife moved to Mildura. Henry and his wife moved to Neerim South. Helen
https://mlarchives.rootsweb.com/listindexes/emails?listname=stratford
@David
The Stratford’s history is fascinating! This is just the first chapter…
https://www.dib.ie/biography/stratford-john-a8352
The Stratford’s (UK) website http://www.thestratfords.co.uk/
They had a reuninon in 2012 when the Australian members of the family attended (including Helen, who might be the one who posted the family history on RootsWeb)
http://www.thestratfords.co.uk/The%206th%20Stratford%20Reunion%20April%2011th.pdf
There’s a DOROTHY JEAN DRAL listed with a 61 10 dividend with DJL Ltd in 1989 in the 1997 and 1999 editions of Unclaimed Moneys for 1996 of the Government Gazette of NSW.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/231990904/14813545
Trying to find her to no avail.
@Pat,
Perhaps you should write to Colleen Fitzpatrick – offer her something and perhaps she’ll spill the beans a little on her contact with the Robertson clan. They obviously know a little more than they disclosed. They had the idea she was in a commune in Bute which could be partly true. Perhaps after Lockyer she went to live in a commune.
@David,
Do you have her contact details? There’s an email address on her website, but I doubt she reads them, probably someone from her team.
@All
I have narrowed down the search for Dorothy on the Ryerson Index to four names for which I can’t find any additional info.
If anyone is still interested I would appreciate any input.
All died in NSW and two of them had the death notice published in Melbourne.
– Dorothy Jean BYRNE Death 19 May 1997 The Age (Melbourne) 20 May 1997
– Dorothy Jean WARREN Death 04 Sep 1997 The Age (Melbourne) 05 Sep 1997
– Dorothy Jean OVERTON Death 26 Jun 1999 late of Guilford Daily Telegraph (Sydney) 29 Jun 1999
– Dorothy Jean STANNUS Death 24 Jun 1999 Sydney Morning Herald 30 Jun 1999
There are others but the notice is for a funeral which I don’t think has happened.
Thanks!
Pat,
Dorothy Jean STANNUS Death 24 Jun 1999. Her obituary Sydney Morning Herald 30 Jun 1999 states her maiden name as Vanstone so we can rule her out.
@Byron
Thanks 😊
Tracking down the plot of Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer and Iris Maggs it seems that her husband ‘may have been’ if there weren’t 2 EA. Maggs’ a bread carters union rep. But there are 2 parallel plots of a union rep and billiards player but another of a criminal fraudster possibly AE Maggs. His brother or a name coincidence?
When Carl went on his holiday he was replaced by Norris the potential Olympic cyclist who never got there because of WW2. It implies Carl and Roy were cycling bread carters. But the union rules for children of bakers who were bread carters was different. They weren’t entitled to the protection of the union rules. They could be paid below the union rates or perhaps not at all.
By employing his children Richard August Webb would have avoided contact with union reps like E.A. Maggs until perhaps he employed Norris or other bread carters.
Intention to Declare Dividends’ notice
Trove, Tuesday 23 Dec 1975 (Aus Gov Gazette)
“Re Douglas John and Dorothy Jean Shaw, 109 MacDonnel Street, Redcliffe, formely trading as ‘D. J. and D. J. Shaw, Rockhampton’ (first and final).”
Execution of deeds 28.11.75 (published 9 Dec 1975).
Deeds of arrangement (29 June 1976)
I kknow it’s Queensland, but the Webbs/Robertsons/Lockyers/Taylors were very mobile, so anything is possible.
I’m trying to find other references regarding the double D.J. couple but any input is appreciated, 37C here, my laptop and iPhone are refusing to charge.
There has to be an affidavit to go with the granting of divorce between Geoff Lockyer and Dorothy …. how can we access that? RichardD brilliantly provided divorce details on December 12 2022 in this thread, so that document was accessible even though a 75 year embargo – completely wonderful, hey, amazing sleuthing. Bravo. Derek Abbott, on Facebook, said he was gonna see if he could get the further details around 43 weeks ago, but then nothing reported back to the legion of followers … and alas and woe, the plug was pulled and further commenting was declared extinct and no longer possible to anyone. One can still do a thumbs up should one wish, but that’s it. Am very curious about the affidavit ….. has it been found, and if not, how can we get access to it? Dorothy clues must be there within.
Dunno if Vic has same (I’d imagine they do), but I know you can get SA court documents online and by requesting them if they’re not available. I remember sending an email for something vaguely related to this case and they responded in less than a week.
Separately, but possibly usefully I think SA residents with a library card can also access SA archives that are locked off to the rest of the world. Not certain if this is *any* library card or if it needs to be state library and whether you need other verification. I think they did try to standardise library cards against multiple libraries.
Could Bute have been disgruntled with Geoffrey Lockyer after he swanned into town with pockets bulging with cash, and on an approved contractors list, and made them offers they couldn’t refuse when he bought up all the town’s earthmoving equipment? It robbed them of long term funds from a government job nearby.
Then, when his sand castles were finished, would he head west into the sunset leaving the town plundered and rusting?
Disolution date was November 3rd 1955 according to Richard D’s discovery. And yet there is no record of divorce with S.A. Genealogy under Lockyer or Robertson which is surprising and somewhat remis of them. Perhaps our ‘Behrooz’ might consider digging deep on our ungreatful behalf once again, though going by the untoward treatment he received last go around, it would be a big ask “Indeed, indeed” (70)
So they were married in on 22 December 1952 … h’mm, then if you had to wait a few years before your divorce came through that would make it a pretty short marriage, hey. (South Australia in the Supreme Court Dissolution of Marriage 3 November 1955 No.474 of 1955 – found by RichardD) I’d be happy to dip into my little apron pocket and provide the funds for the yet unseen affidavit, should it be available, but I can’t provide any good words to get said document, alas and woe, I would be outstandingly rejected, no question, lol. Good idea Sanders ….. Behrooz???
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/finding-information/discover-our-collection/police,-courts-and-gaols/divorce
We have Carl the engineer and Geoff the engineer. Geoff in the hotel at Henley Beach 1953. The other Carl dead on the Somerton beach 1948. Was there some annual freemason event in the Henley hotel for engineers?
Did Carl know Geoff?
This is an amazing coincidence from an earlier era where the suicide Charles James Webb had Chlorodyne (morphine, chloroform and cannabis) and a gun:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/26760722?searchTerm=%22henley%20beach%20hotel%22
@ Poppins
You can ask Behrooz permition to copy and paste his letter, change the name Webb for Lockyer, Carl for Geoffrey Arthur and send it to to SRoSA yourself. Easy peasy lemon squeesy.
@David: I don’t think 2 engineers in a pub 5 years apart is the greatest coincidence. Beachside suburbs (especially Grange/Henley/West Beach/Glenelg and to a lesser degree those immediately North (Tennyson, Semaphore, Largs) and South (Somerton, Brighton)) in Adelaide tend to be fairly affluent (although not necessarily *the* most affluent), so it would seem reasonable that you’d more likely find educated patrons there (without intending any offence, as opposed to pubs in Elizabeth, SMithield or Salisbury or just outside of Port Adelaide like Rosewater, Ottoway or Alberton that would traditionally have attracted a more working class clientele).
Adelaide is a slightly curious place insofar as the East (from the city into the Adelaide Hills) and the extreme West (*most* Beachside suburbs) tend to be more affluent whereas the North and South tend to be more working class (with pockets of working class through the non-Beachside West – although over time a lot of these like Cheltenham, Woodville, Croydon seem to have become more affluent – probably because easy access to the city, and relatively large blocks).
The most obvious anomaly to that is the LeFevre Peninsula (ie North of Port Adelaide) where suburbs like Birkenhead, Peterhead, Taperoo and Osborne are (or traditionally *were*) probably more working class (although Largs Bay and North Haven not so much). Taperoo in particular seems to have a divide that the section from the Port River to Vic Road (largely ex Housing Trust) was public housing, the section between Victoria and Military roads surrounding the Railway was more working class, and the section from the Military Road to the beach was a little more affluent (perhaps Middle Class – it’s still not Semaphore or Largs). In fact Taperoo High (which sits across from the Beach on the corner of Lady Gowrie Dve and Gedville Rd) was renamed “Ocean View College” in the 90s (I think) as part of an attempt by home owners in the Beach area to rename that part of Taperoo to remove some of the stigma attached to the suburb (and increase their land value).
But that’s a long way around to say “coincidence, sure. *Amazing* – not necessarily”.
“Easy peasy lemon squeezy”. Hey that’s good Pat, does it have a Portugese trans. Sounds a lot like Gordon Cramer’s simple “citric acid” (Lemon/lime) solution for raising layers of jumbled numbers and letters from deep beneath the surface of your harmless everyday Tamam Shud slip photo images.
@Pat …. good on ya for the suggestion, but – err, I don’t think you’ve quite thought that through …. cutting and pasting won’t make the cut re Geoff Lockyer and Dorothy – h’mm, and there’s also the question of the impressive credentials/qualifications Behrooz has to offer. Ph.D, Associate Professor, etc, etc , then “My name is” ….
@ Pat, Poppins, John Sanders, and others interested (who would not be?)
(@RichardD)
I have been mindful of your kind interests in my trying it. The fact of the matter is that I tried beginning in July, waited many months with lots of back and forth, and recently got whatever file of it that exists, fees paid, etc.
The problem has been, despite my best and repeated efforts and emphases on need for publicizing whatever is found, they have been slow in moving on making their decisions, and oddly reluctant yet for letting me publicize it, so I have made an absolute promise not to even quote from it. With apologies, I have to abide by the promise until I hear back from them, so until then I can say absolutely nothing about its content at this time.
Already, some pages of the Lockyer vs. Lockyer file has been made public, as you know, before I even tried, thanks to others efforts, especially RichardD, as far as I know, who has reported it in this thread and has sincerely been trying to find more about DJR. You must have already seen the pages that he has posted or someone associated with him (I think) here https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/GFMQ-H4B/dorothy-jean-robertson-1920-1990
I have already made it clear to them that whatever had already been published (like those above) are fair game for public discussion, and you have seen and discussed them any way.
My question and requests are as follows:
1) From RichardD who has reported from his sources they have seen the complete file, please let me/us know if they had found any other pages other than those posted in the link above. This way, if it happens that they already have and made public what I have, then I will know. So, RichardD, please let me/us know if there were any more pages in the file your source read, but have not posted, other than those two pages. This will help me to know what is already public or acquired by your source. But, unfortunately, I will not be able to say anything more, even following RichardD’s feedback.
2) From those familiar with Australian laws, I wish to know if there was any chance Dorothy Jean Robertson’s parents, or anyone close, could have classified information about her for any reason. Again, this has nothing to do with the Lockyer vs. Lockyer file. Just something I wish to know, since as you know nothing about her Lockyers marriage record (directly, I mean, not in terms of its being noted in other documents), and death/grave record has been found publicly. Is it possible that lack of such public records (aside from all other reasons such as name variations, lack of listing, etc.) is due to classification policies on the part of someone, such as his parents, not to make publicly available more information about her such as those records? Her parents worked in munitions, from what I know, but could they classify anything related to their relatives? If so, for how long?
3) One thing I noticed in the Webb vs. Webb files I shared a while back (https://www.okcir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Webb-v-Webb-divorce-file_.pdf and https://www.okcir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Webb-v-Webb-divorce-file_.pdf), and this has again absolutely nothing to do with the Lockyer vs. Lockyer file, is that she initialized some pages as “dg Webb”. This seems odd. Would that be a customary thing to do, initial “g” for Jean? Was it initialized by someone other than her, not realizing it is Jean, not, say, Gene, etc. I don’t know. I have searched a bit with the alternative middle initial, and think it is not anything important, but who knows may be Pat or Poppins will find dig up something (!), and may be just someone initializing for her. Again, please do not see this question as a huge revelation or as having anything to do with the Lockyers file noted above. It is simply an observation about the Webb vs. Webb file, already public. Just something curious I don’t think others have noticed, or maybe they did and I am not aware of.
That is all I can say for now on this matter, unfortunately. So, Pat, no need for your appetizing “Easy peasy lemon squeesy”. So, John Sanders, yes, I have been mindful of your wishes to dig up more about the matter, “indeed, indeed”!
@Julian.
There is also the coincidence that the family believed Carl was in Cottlesloe and Lockyer lived in Subiaco and returned to Perth with the Karrakkata cemetery where he is buried in the middle. Baby Lockyer was buried within ?100m of Carl’s grave in Adelaide.
Enough coincidences to be quite amazing.
I just thought perhaps engineering birds of a feather flocked together in Glenelg for Christmas freemasonry parties without their wives. It could be where Dorothy met Webb and Lockyer if she liked dating engineers.
Following from my brief mention of there being no record of Dorothy’s divorce from Geoff Lockyer in 1955 held by S.A. Genealogy, I should also have mentioned that neither is their any record of their marriage in 1952. Only related information available concerns their still born child of ’51 and Dorothy’s hospitalisation in 1955.
@ Behrooz,
That is not a G, it’s just a stylised J, although it’s different from her signature on the marriage certificate. Judging by the same J of June ‘Dated the 29th day of June 1951’, I suspect someone has signed for her.
@ David Morgan,
According to Geoff’s letter to the WA Army dated Dec 1948 he was living in Perenjori, and according to news on Trove he had a garage in Perth in Sep 1946.
If Carl had been living in Cottesloe in 1947-48 they might have bumped into each other in Perth particularly if Carl had been dealing with the dodgy parallel car business.
@ JS
SA Genealogy time period for online marriage registration is 1842-1937, newspaper divorces is 1879-1954 and church records marriages are ‘work in progress’. Hope this helps.
Any chance Lorna Elaine Stratford, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. C. R. Stratford, of Glenelg, might be related do the family of Dorothy’s mother, Alice Stratford?
She had a quiet wedding on 12 June 1941 with Mr. Alfred Netter. Miss Dulcie Newman of Melbourne was bridesmaid, and Dr. Neil Reily was best man.
@ Pat, JS, others interested.
My suggestion is, if you are looking for DJR’s death record, not to limit yourself to the hearsay 90s and NSW info; who knows, it is possible those furnishing that information, knowingly or not, sent all on a goose chase, so to speak. I think the safest thing to do is to search starting from the exact last time she was publicly reported alive, which I think was when she was released from Wallaroo hospital in April 1955.
Pat: you’re correct on the divorces and ’54 cut off year did cross my mind. As for marriages I was aware of ’37 registration end date but that doesn’t apply to S.A. newspaper notices ie. Dorothy Jean and Michael Peter D’Arcy’s marriage in 1964. As for the Stratfords of Glenelg, I recall posting about one such family who lived in North Brighton and I traced them back to Melbourne but couldn’t interest anyone in the possibility of connectivity. As for my own research credentials you might be surprised how limited they are, certainly less expansive than yours, and further stifled by my online skills that be rather pedestrian at best.
Hey Behrooz, you’re doin’ a stellar job trying to access those documents, good on ya, happy to help in any way I can from this part of the world if needed, no worries.
Here’s the comparisons of the J – yep, definitely not a G, agree with Pat re stylised G. Dorothy’s handwriting, small sample though it is, might be worth looking into re handwriting analysis, hey, the “b’s” are interesting … what’s that all about, h’mm, let me have a look.
https://imgur.com/vzmDhp5
You’re probably talking about Nick Pellings dentist C. R. Stratford of 27 Jetty Rd. Gleneld. Clarence Roy & Dorothy were life long residents of Glenelg area and I’m battling to find familial links to your Dorothy’s mum Alice Stratford. What might work is if Clarry ‘dental mechanic’ had given SM an appointment on D day minus one. Just a coincidence that said dental surgery would be conveniently located directly opposite where Freeman chemist’s Hillman Minx was likely to have been parked…you can take it from there Pat I’ll stay with GC until he comes clean.
@Poppins,
It was Roy’s writing I thought worth comparing with analysis of Carl’s wedding cert.
I don’t know where I got this from. I have the idea the NAA file has been amended
https://imgur.com/a/ex7gzty.
@ Poppins
Excellent clip. Thanks much for putting it together. I think that further settles the possibility that they are just stylized j’s, although still some definitively look like g’s. Yes, b’s are curious, but nothing significant in my mind (yet), unless you/we find other things we can relate it to.
Her handwriting had certainly improved in 10 years if this is her signature.
I wonder who were ‘the several witnesses called on behalf of the Petitioner’ that has given evidence ‘taken upon their oral examination at the hearing’? (Webb v Webb divorce affidavid)
@ Pat, John Sanders, Poppins, others interested
Let me state this more specifically, so that you may consider focusing your searches and interpretations and not wasting more time unnecessarily.
It is more than likely—still not 100% unless the actual death record of her death is found, or conversely, somehow with reliable evidence it is found that she did in fact survive—that Dorothy Jean Robertson died in 1955, and did not see the end of that year.
I think it is best to consider the idea of her having died in the 1990s and buried in NSW as just a hearsay (she could have been buried anywhere, in NSW, or elsewhere, or cremated). But the very fact that the sources of that information were not in a position to offer, purposely or not, definitive whereabouts for her for various reasons must itself be regarded, in my view, as interpretively significant.
Why and how she died, also I do not know. Suicide or not, I do not know, so I do not want to incline in one or another direction. As you all know, she had several health complications (starting with the stillborn delivery, likely what caused her adhesions, and then appendectomy, and perhaps preconditions leading to the above, or post operative issues). Then we have possible other issues, publicly known, related to her not formally defending herself (while still alive) in the divorce claim by Lockyer about her “habitual cruelty”. And the extent and when she knew about TSM’s death and her relation to his demise, whatever that may be in a general sense, if he is Carl Webb, are all interpretively significant.
The fact that she was publicly reported as having recovered and been released from the Wallaroo hospital in April 1955 should not necessarily lead us to believe she did not die for the same or other reasons after release and before the end of that year. The fact that no record of her death has been found (unless it is found, if further more focused research for 1955 is done) can also be itself treated as interpretively significant for the Somerton man case.
Perhaps, if you focus on 1955, and if it exists and just missed in past searches due to focus on the 1990s timeframe and NSW location for her death, you may be able to find a death record for her. Not all deaths were registered/listed, I think, while cremation or unnamed or brief/initial name parish burials are possibilities. Or, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the possibility of her family having her death unlisted, if possible, can be a consideration and therefore interpretively significant.
Unfortunately I cannot provide further information regarding the basis of my suggestion, but I can say it is more than another hearsay. Can I be proven wrong? Possibly, but I think it is remote. I sincerely note that I would welcome being proven wrong, as the point of all this is finding the truth of what happened. For more than a year all have been searching for her records, and had they been available they should have surfaced by now. But I think what explains the failure is that all were looking for a different timeframe and location. I am sharing the above in the hopes that by considering the alternative possibility, we may actually find some new evidence that is publicly available. If such public recorded evidence is found of her death in 1955, then it would explain the puzzle of what happened to her.
I was checking out the claim that Mrs Dorothy Robertson of Perth was Miss Dorothy Robertson. But her husband Austin Robertson was a famous professional sprinter over 130 yards (I think). But another coincidence was he started in Melbourne and moved to Perth like Carl (possibly) where he played football like Carl (definitely). You wonder whether they met at least in the bread shop.
My theory is Carl liked his bikes more than football.
@Behrooz,
The thing is I have been looking for Dorothy Jean Robertson everywhere, not focusing on NSW or the time frame given by her nephew, which I haven’t even understood (is it late 90’s or late 1990?). Many public records after 1954 aren’t available so it’s just a matter of waiting until they are made public or someone related to her requests them.
Behrooz: Speaking of Dorothy’s adhesians, I would think it more likely that they were a conseqence of an earlier appendix operation or, perhaps even a caesarean.
It is also quite possible that there was something else about her hospitalisation so close to the time of Geoff’s ‘quickie’ divorce and grounds thereof that is in need of further consideration. Perhaps there was domestic violence on her part, maybe an attempt to cause harm or worse using drugs or poison. It’s not out of the question that she came under notice of police so high tailed it from Butte to avoid threat of imminent prosecution. Dorothy could then assume a fake identity and start a new life, somewhere equally remote eg., Wagan W.A. where cousin Dr. John Bennett had removed to rather smartly after his brief meeting with Somerton Man @ Carl Webb (?) at RAH.
@ Pat
I understand your point. Of all folks, I had especially you in mind in trying to get the point across, since I know how much time you have been spending on this matter (and will more, hopefully), and deserve some feedback. All I can say, there are possibilities such as the following, as an example I found https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TOVTEulnlD0hVnYHlYtPpLb1RKy0gjLD/view?usp=sharing
Not sure if this is it not, perhaps this is it (“widow” can be loosely defined, and technically, if her family knew Carl Webb had died or gone missing, they could put her as widow, or if they wanted to avoid bringing the Lockyer name in given divorce procedures; I realize it also says her gender is not known). But I am not sure if those limits you mentioned are universal. Find My Past seems to be a rich source, where i found the linked above.
But ultimately, Pat, we may not even find a death record (for a lot of reasons that are significant interpretively), or, perhaps we will, if, as you say, new records go online (and this also regarding her Lockyer marriage/divorce). It seems odd the lack of such records (if not due to archival limitations). Any ways, I am confident about what I said for other reasons.
@ John Sanders,
Thanks. I have read your thoughts on this, and you can try proving your points regarding such possibilities, of course, but I am not there yet in the specific ways you have mentioned post 1955. There is clearly a very important court admitted and admitted “habitual cruelty” elephant in the room now.
Regarding causes, I think I agreed that it could be a result of earlier appendectomy/adhesion, may be I misunderstood what you wrote. Regarding the stillborn delivery I had the caesarean in mind (unsuccessful one) as a part of that possibility. I think appendix and adhesion were both listed in hospital record, so prior adhesion issue (from stillborn delivery/caesarean) may have complicated her appendectomy from which she recovered, but not sure what happened immediately later (I read in Trove that adhesion issues could have become life threatening back then. Her death may not have had to do directly with those either. Any ways, that is all I can say. I am confident about the view I expressed. The wider interpretive issues you have pointed out are of course part of the wider discussion about how she fits in the TSM (if Carl Webb) story.
A while ago last year I actually inquired about name change possibilities and I received a definitely negative answer, and I let folks on this site know. No name change record for her. I am not myself inclined to think of such events/possibilities post 1955, given the view I expressed, unless you or others can offer evidence.
Again, I wish to say that if what I expressed leads people to offer evidence challenging it and disproving me, that will be wonderful. I will sincerely welcome it. For example, if her extended family members living today somehow want to prove me wrong by offering evidence of photos or anything post 1955, please do so by all means. Even that will be a good result coming out of this.
I am not sure if I had copied that name change inquiry report, so here it is in excerpts:
Date: 23 September 2022
Your Reference: Change of name of Dorothy Jean Robertson (Webb)
Subject Document: Deed Poll
I refer to your email dated 20 September 2022 requesting evidence of change of name for Dorothy Jean Robertson (Webb).
A search was conducted in the Vendors Index from say 1952 to April 1996. No entry was found as regards a change of name.
Yours faithfully,
…
@Behrooz SAPOL would already have a copy of the death record: police are not limited like the public. They will publicly release more details with the DNA results in time, soon.
@David Morgan Compare the “We” in her signature in your link to her “Wendy Virtue” signature under the newspaper cutting at link https://www.rcs.org.au/?page_id=3481 then go to “Archives” then go to “1951-2000 RCS pictures” click on Jock Cook’s Folkloric 1951 photo to see it. They are virtually identical. She is the same blond as in the 1960 Mount Gambier New Years Sports Day photograph. Dorothy Jean Webb and Wendy Virtue are the same person.
Behrooz,
I can recall a Jean Robertson, widow from Ballarat passing in June ’55. She was well into her eighties when she died and so I think we can safely take her off the list of contenders. I gather that your hypothetical link was intended expressly for Pat’s benefit as to other research possibilities available if she wasn’t aware already. Fine idea as well.
@ Behrooz – Dorothy is mentioned in relation to her father’s 1989 death certificate & obituary but was not a beneficiary of his will. See Angela’s comments from 3 August last year.
@ Jo
What if they didn’t know her whereabouts? Just like her solicitors couldn’t locate Carl Webb in 1951 because he was dead and hadn’t been reported as a missing person?
@ John Sanders
Yes, actually I appreciate your letting me know about that (im)possibility. I was not at all sure about it myself, which is why I did not flag it earlier. As you correctly said, I was just using that as an example. for Pat I am not seeing such a universal limitations online about info about deaths in 1955 as Pat has. She knows better, but I think if it is there, it can be found, if no attempt was made to delist or hide them somehow.
Overall, I wish to note that not finding a fact when we expect it is as important and interpretively significant as when it is found. In hermeneutics, which is a fancy word for analyzing texts to understand the intentions and thoughts of its author, especially when secretiveness is involved, absence of something expected to exist or be mentioned is as important as finding it. That is what writing or reading between the lines come into play in textual interpretation. So, I suggest to all not to see not finding an information when one expects it as being a loss of time. It is actually very important. In other words, when Pat says she has looked everywhere and all the times and did not find it, that itself is a very important piece of information.
@ Jo
Thanks for bringing Angela’s point to my attention. I saw her note know (again). All she is saying is that in the certificate of his Will Dorothy is not mentioned, and in his death record she is listed by first name. That does not seem to be any indication she was alive. Just being mentioned elsewhere, especially just first name, does not mean she is alive, I think. The most important indicator in my view is that Dorothy is not even mentioned in his Will as I posted it previously here https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive
Any ways, I am not seeing these as any evidence for having survived. Hopefully something more reliable can be found to refute or further support my view.
@ Curio
I agree that SAPOL likely has that, if even they can find it. Yes, hopefully they will release what they know.
Regarding your point addressed to DM, I had seen that photo of Dorothy on the Family Trees link. I am not at all convinced that it is her. In the collection it came from online, there are other photos of that person and she is really a young (I mean teenage) girl, and I actually did not find any texts where the names claimed were listed for those in that photo, typed or handwritten. You can perhaps make a comparison clip like Poppins helpfully did for all to see, but frankly similarity of handwriting per se will not convince me, given what I know.
@ Behrooz,
Thanks for the hints but I don’t have a FindMyPast subscription and I suppose it has been thorougly searched by Abbott’s students and the other posters on here?
@ Jo, sorry that link is accessible here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SYCGOycq4wL5WyH3HuFwqyAMtz1izavj/view?usp=sharing
@ Pat, a while ago I took advantage of a week’s free trial with FindMyPast (there are options that make things more accessible, so as a trial, it can be done, to see what’s there).
@Behrooz,
My free trial is long gone 😂
@Curio,
Mrs Robertson married Austin Robertson the sprinter. Wendy Virtue was 16 in 1954.
But I do think there is a story of Carl and Dorothy where ‘they’ have a secret. Superfit Carl couldn’t have avoided National Service – unless perhaps he joined the Nazis. Carl the spy or traitor?
Buesst was linked to spying and Carl lived in his old house in Domain road. Perhaps he and Dorothy were on some spy training course in 1941 and had to look married. It became a nurses’ house afterward. Dorothy never mentions living there in her divorce papers.
“The Second World War brought another hiatus, during which Buesst, as a Major now, was working for Australian Army Intelligence between 1940 and 1944.”
All my attempts to use Betaface to match the young Dorothy image from familysearch seemed to end up with German women. Perhaps the Webbs liked young Dorothy because she looked like a young German girl.
David Morgan: Carl avoided national service by virtue of his marriage to Dorothy in 1941, thereby givng him coveted over 35 age exemption status. So not Carl the nazi spy or traitor, more likely Carl the cunning conscription avoider.
Simple logic sez that the marriage was one of convenience only. At war’s end, there being no need for the sham to carry on, Carl made it known to Dorothy Jean that she was not the girl for him, much to her chagrin…but not surprise for mine
@David Morgan Wendy Virtue was not 12 and was fully an adult young woman in the 1950 newspaper photograph she signed. The people involved in the two Scottish dancers photographs are probably Helen Vercoe, Dorothy Stirling Robertson, and Phyllis Crick from Dorothy and Carl’s circle of friends and family, the signature matching means they all add to a substantial Bayesian probability it is Dorothy Jean Webb.
@Beehrooz I searched for many months for Wendy Virtue in records and the 1950 photograph she is fully adult: the record for Australia is a travel record from England. The Bayesian probability standard required by Australian judges in court has been satisfied.
@JS,
Roy got married and didn’t avoid NS. How so?
Hmmm Roy was already married and only one year older than Carl. The difference between them regarding the exemption was probably related to their occupation: driver v instrument maker.
Regarding the end of the marriage, Carl realised they were not suited to each other after 5 years which is a considerable amount of time to carry on with a marriage of convenience related to the war which had ended 16 months before the marriage break-up.
The marriage could be explained by the facts that all the other siblings were married and Roy had already enlisted in 1939, leaving to Carl the burden of looking after his widowed mother with health issues. A wife would be handy.
Eliza’s poor health and death in the end of 1946, the age gap between Carl and Doff (maybe not a problem when facing a word war, but more obviously so when facing the ordinary daily bickering of marriage) and the lack of offspring (the reasons being open to discussion, but given that Doff was pregnant before the divorce had been formally decreed, and that they had sex at least until the end of 1946, it seems that Carl had fertility issues), seem to me more plausible than spy theories.
The convenience of the marriage therefore could have been linked to more mundane reasons like ageing and parental care than spy activities.
The possibility raised on here that he could have been gay could also be a reason for a marriage of convenience, though I think Doff would have mentioned it in the divorce case.
@ JS
Why did you say that Dorothy worked at Wallaroo hospital in 1955?
https://ciphermysteries.com/2023/01/01/gladys-may-webb-and-leslie-william-scott#comment-483791
According to RichardD, ‘It was also in April 1955 there is a record of Dorothy being in the Wallaroo Hospital from the 17th to the 22nd for an appendectomy, age 35 of Bute, Church of England.’
https://ciphermysteries.com/2014/01/10/new-somerton-man-page#comment-495209
Her ‘official’ age was 34.
@DM: Roy plainly had more pluck then his shurker sib and/or was likely more patriotic when push comes to shove. Could be other reasons eg., getting out of the Gavey crime trip he’d been forced into by marrying into the family.
Pat: I didn’t say Dorothy worked at the hosputal trove did. I said Sister Robertson from memory and recall from my related post (not your link) that she happened to be a midwife…By the way I really don’t appreciate folks playing copy-cat with my reasoning behind Carl’s avoiding the draft and possible grounds for wanting out of the marriage. My advice is try coming up with your own ideas they might be better.
Pat: I didn’t say Dorothy worked at the hospital trove did. I said Sister Robertson from memory and recall from my related post (not your link) that she happened to be a midwife…By the way I really don’t appreciate folks playing copy-cat with my reasoning behind Carl’s avoiding the draft and possible grounds for wanting out of the marriage. My advice is try coming up with your own ideas they might be better.
@ Pat, regarding the fee trial ending for FindMyPast, I should have assumed you had tried! I did try various things when I could login there and could not find anything. Perhaps others not having tried the free trials can try.
@ Curio
I hope you will provide direct links or images of what you have referred to as the signatures and names, logically provable or not in terms of matching signatures (the latter info will be helpful to provide in detail also).
She is here again on the left https://www.pinterest.com/pin/368380444501320987/ This is a kid. There is really no way she could be a 41 year old woman (in 1960). Where are those names you have given listed? Do you have their images? I sincerely wish that you can try to prove your point, so any more details?
All the write-ups for those photos on FamilySearch sites are added notes by current others, not original names. I don’t even know where you are citing those names from; can you offer the links so we can all see them? Just because someone referred to DJR as blondie back when married to Lockyer (which is fine, if so), does not mean any dancing blonde in such costumes would be her, or even likely her, even if there is a name resemblance (which I have yet to see what the names are of those in the photo).
The original discussion was whether “Mrs” Dorothy Robertson – wife of sprinter Austin Robertson was Carl’s wife. I would say no.
I wasn’t checking whether a young Scottish dancer was Wendy Virtue.
“13 and over” 1951.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45728908?searchTerm=%22Wendy%20Virtue%22
1953? doesn’t say her age – but if she was 16 in 1954 then 15 in 1953 would be a good guess. Tennis player. But as a cricketer, she was 17.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131245264?searchTerm=%22Wendy%20Virtue%22
But also 17 in 1953 – cricket
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48917029?searchTerm=%22Wendy%20Virtue%22
1954 says aged 16 tennis player
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47584230?searchTerm=%22Wendy%20Virtue%22
Whichever, ‘tennis or cricket’ “this” Wendy Virtue was not 20 in 1941. She would have been under 10?
So a 2nd Wendy Virtue?
To the commentor who recently wrote about there being no change of name record. The nearly first matter discussed on The Somerton Man FB Webpage after we knew about Dorothy Robertson was nobody was willing to pay for the SA record of change of name that is the one index returned in the search result. It could be the biggest clue to finding her trail in SA.
Interesting theory that Doff may have died much earlier than we were led to believe, Behrooz …. h’mm, yes, definitely worth looking into.
The Dorothy Jean Robertson on Prov Vic who died in 1965 is not our Dorothy if anyone was at all curious – the docs are surprisingly available online – just looked up the newspaper archives and she was aged 72 in 1965 and the widow of Alexander Robertson.
https://imgur.com/yKDU8xM
@David Morgan, yes, that signature of Roy’s is from the NAA, it’s still there – his “b” is similar to Dorothy’s but Dorothy’s is more peculiar – will have a look at Carl’s again to compare with Roy.
@David Morgan Yes, a second Wendy Virtue on a travel record from England to Australia giving her age a year younger than Dorothy and sadly origin stated as “Yorkshire” (unless they mistook York South Australia).
@Behrooz Read and look at them again: you will find what you asked for. The travel record giving her age a year younger than Dorothy is on a paid site like Ancestry, so links are not available. The blond is wearing the same Robertson women’s pattern kilt in the 1950 and 1960 photographs, so she is just small in stature not a child. Read RichardD’s comment 17 September 2023 stating his research found Dorothy was known as a blond by Lockyer’s coworkers.
@ Poppins
Yes, that 1965 is not her. The reason you found her docs is because I ordered them (paying the fees) recently, I think. Anyways, not her as you noted.
@ Curio
I am not sure what you were trying to say in your last post, sorry. If you were implying that the search for name change has not been done yet, well, it has and I was reporting its result. Actually for that search they did not ask for fees, thankfully. The search I requested was done back in Sept. ’22, as you saw. If you care to clarify what you mean so I can address it, that will be helpful.
I copy their report below again. May be you misunderstood it as if the words were mine, in my request letter. That is not the case, I was copying their reply. They were reporting they could not find name change.
Date: 23 September 2022
Your Reference: Change of name of Dorothy Jean Robertson (Webb)
Subject Document: Deed Poll
I refer to your email dated 20 September 2022 requesting evidence of change of name for Dorothy Jean Robertson (Webb).
A search was conducted in the Vendors Index from say 1952 to April 1996. No entry was found as regards a change of name.
Yours faithfully,
@Behrooz I searched the SA records Website just after we found out about Dorothy Robertson and it returned one index where they have different membership levels, so I had to pay at my level whereas another level does not have to pay.
@ Curio
Regarding pay protected links, you can just go in (since you have/had access) and just do an image capture, and then upload to google drive (it’s free) and send us a link, if you can or wish to do so. You must have had the signature images to do your “Bayesian probability” testing, no? Just send us a link to those images you have obviously used to do the test.
Again, being called or known as blondie does not work for me (or, I daresay, anyone), nor just an image that still to me seems off age-wise (I looked again, she seems like a teenage kid and her placement in the two photos’ rows supports that also). Even if they have similar names will not do for me. As you note in Poppins’s comment, there was a 72 year old with that name in 1965, and there are many others probably. You are even saying the example you have in mind states her age as a year younger. That’s not a good sign. I had read RichardD and knew about the blond reference, but that really does not mean anything as far as actual finding goes. Obviously, she was not the only blonde around, nor the only Scottish doing the dancing or wearing the clothes.
I just checked Family Search again as you suggested, there is an image of DJW initials comparing with Roy Webb. I have no idea why that comparison is being made between her and Roy’s signature, besides there being obvious differences in the W and in the b (the second b) even in those initials/signatures. But, why make that comparison (those interested must login in Family Search to see it)? In the other older newspaper photo, there are illegible signatures below. None of the signatures are actually telling her name, if that is what you mean to imply. Are you saying just by a W or a We you are confident it is DJR? In its photo I cannot even distinguish which one is the person you are referring to as DJR, given the photo is so poor. I don’t see that person in that old photo line up. Even if there is, the photo is so poor you cannot tell who is who in there.
Please try to provide images of the signatures so we can see what you are trying to argue, if that is the most important part of your evidence. Unless you provide further evidence, this will be my last engagement on this topic, so that I won’t take more of your and others’ time. Thanks.
Very interesting reading ‘A History of Cruelty in Australian Divorce’
https://www8.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/ANZLawHisteJl/2006/7.pdf
This bit is particularly important:
‘The 1950s in Australia was a decade of relatively improved marriage rates
and levelling if not decreased divorce rates. Yet behind the façade of harmony, some significant Australian cases on men’s cruelty emerged. One was the 1954 Privy Council decision of Lang. In that case, a Victorian woman who had left her violent husband sought to divorce him on the grounds of his ‘wilful desertion’ over three years. Cruelty was not a ground for divorce in Victoria at that time.’
If Doff couldn’t plead cruelty, perhaps Carl did her a favor by abandoning her, because after all, she was the one who left the flat in September 1946.
@ Pat
That was helpful, thanks. This passage from it is also interesting:
“Formally, ‘collusion’ between the parties was an ‘absolute bar’ to divorce, but only if there was adequate evidence brought to court in proper form.84 Parties could conspire, with the guidance of solicitors and court staff, to arrange the ‘facts’ so that the grounds for divorce such as adultery, desertion or cruelty could be ‘proved’. The practice was so widespread that as late as 1981, some Australian researchers suggested that divorce reforms had little effect on divorce rates because of the tradition of constructing the ‘facts’ to satisfy the required grounds.”
@behrooz,
If anyone has a collection of enough signatures the best way to compare is with German HAT2 software. The way it works is you have to create a ‘known’ folder and an ‘unknown’ folder (around the C drive is best to make them easy to find). Then a subfolder for each signature image – under known/unknown. It is that easy when you know how.
My best analogy is like comparing art where you would look for patterns of swirls etc. I believe it looks at the points in a circle around every point in the signature. It eliminates opinions about the signature and is pattern-matching. Signature picture ID perhaps.
This photo can’t be of Dorothy – “Arts Festival by migrants of 12 nations.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/8708955
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/4649937
@ David Morgan. Thanks. Hopefully, if there are any relevant signatures are shared to be tested, you can help out as I am not familiar with the technique you mentioned (but the basic point of how they do it is clear, from what you describe). I am myself skeptical about the strength of such solely signature based evidence but they can be helpful beside other material.
@ Poppins. Thanks. Yes, I agree. I am not sure why that photo and other/new items are being posted on DJR page in FamilyTree.
@Behrooz It’s up to you: pay for the change of name record.
@Behrooz: thank you so much for your somewhat extraordinary comment on DJR (not published here)! For my part, I would rather reformat it as a guest post (by you) on Cipher Mysteries (though with the email addresses removed).
Would that OK with you?
@ Nick Pelling
Sure, of course, I understand, given the material is worthy of its own thread’s attention. Yes, good idea to remove the emails, actually. As long as you have seen them, they have served their purpose.
Nick Pelling: just so long as it doesn’t take any of the gloss off Curio’s facinating DJR highland fling participation, with her ‘Bondie’ proof of identity pic now posted for our viewing pleasure on the most reliable (for some) Family Search site.
How very intriguing ….
@JS,
Familysearch is reliable IF – family members create it. When created by researchers or LDS it is entirely wishful thinking. I was researching Arthur Penn Yates JP living in Lower Plenty thinking he was the dad of a serial offender but the LDS had created a family tree for him back to 1330 with no links to evidence. I checked his life in Yinnar and found he had a daughter that doesn’t exist at all on the chart. Then the LDS guy (who was a distant relative) decided to make Arthur’s kids dead after no research. He said he just made them dead.
We see the same with researchers who stick pictures on people and create false links without being part of the family.
I was in contact with a woman who had lived in the same village as me and she made my great aunt a different woman. I had a distinct memory of my great aunt as my father stopped suddenly to offer her a lift in his Ford Popular and my head hit the windscreen. The butcher came out of the shop with a piece of bloody steak for my head.
I get punished by the researchers because my theory was SM was Rudolf Mons. But I had researched Mons etc and asked a military expert who identifies bodies and had ‘reasonable grounds’ to think it was him. Carl did turn out to be of Hamburg heritage working for Sher from Vienna. Mons was from Vienna – ‘supposely’ though I could find no birth/marriage records for him.
In the same way that no death records existed for Carl no birth records existed for Mons. So it was a reasonable mistake. My other theory was Mons was a Monsberger currently metaphorically flying over Palestine.
It is the researchers who persist with microcode or Russian agents show they have no threshold for evidence.
@ Behrooz & Nick – further mystery, please do tell!
I meant ‘Blondie’, which according to Richard D. was the monicker Dorothy was known by in Bute circa 1950’s that in itself seems out of wack seeing as she’d been there since 1947. Even more curious is that it be known from NAA records that her dad’s hair was brown, as was her mum’s and sister Phyllis’ going by the FS photo of them. So whence the blonde locks or did local yokels give her the Blondie handle cause she was a painted lady and hitched up to a real life ‘Dagwood Bumstead’ cartoon character in Geoffrey Lockyer.
Behrooz: I recall that both yours and my comments were called to question when we dared to suggest that Dorothy’s grounds for divorce be taken with a grain of salt. I think now with there being similar evidence of her own case to answer for fault the second time around the tables are turned. Your recent post gives a clear picture of conivance deals between the parties at all levels in those days to ensure a quick result. In Dorothy’s own case I’d suggest the contrary to a degree, in that her petition complaints against Carl although mostlycontrived, were made in full knowledge that he was not in any position to contest such damning evidence.
Nick Pelling: I can guess that the upcoming Berooz inspired DJR thread is to be solely aimed at tracking Doff down dead or alive at 103. You will surely agree that it was your own BLIND haste to some extent that lost an early chance of success by confiding in an informant not realising that he be Dr John Barkly Bennett’s own son. Bruce Bennett as we are all now well aware has compiled an extensive Bennett, Sparrow, Crick & Robertson family tree; So if anyone knows where our Dorothy is, he does…wouldn’t you agree?.
@ Jo, yes, I wonder about that too. That is why I sent it as a regular post and wished it to go online immediately. I have not been in touch with him since, and I have nothing to do at all with this delay. To given him again the benefit of the doubt, Nick Pelling may be just needing more time, I guess, amid busy work.
What puzzles me is how long deleting some emails can take, and (now) what he meant by “reformatting” — I don’t know. But that should not take more than a few seconds, or at most minutes, to do, if he meant it to be a “guest post.” I did not give him permission to delete anything, or add anything, to my material under my name (and he would not do that, per his promise of what he said he was going to do). Nor would it be fair to all of you for him to comment on the material and take his position on matters without treating himself as an equal party in the conversation. I wished to give all (including him) equal chance to reflect on what I wanted to share, and in fact I posed a puzzle for all to solve.
So, yes, I had been wondering about the delay myself, but your question brings up a good point for Nick Pelling to consider, that the delay may cause unnecessary suspicions. He is probably trying to absorb the “somewhat extraordinary” material I send; but why not let all do the same equally? He can do another post of his own with his positions on things. This is/was supposed to be a guest post, right? I could have easily just posted it on my site and offered a link to it. He has not even come back explaining why there has been a delay for a guest post that is supposed to be a guest post (he let your post through, so he could have just said something, but did not, and that of course causes suspicion, for me too!). I have a feeling it is just a benign reason, for otherwise it would be unthinkable.
@ John Sanders. Yes, that article by Pat was a good one (more in there that could be quoted, actually), and sheds light on the possibilities you mention. Let’s just wait until my last post goes through (if it does), so conversations can be based on more information about DJR. Rest assured, I have made a list of things (to the extent I have been able to read) you have contributed that deserve to be taken into consideration, so hopefully they will see the light of day sometime. If I missed anything, I am sure you will remind me. This is all a back and forth, I may agree with something but not with something else, but I have taken all your contributions seriously and there are many that make good sense.
Behrooz: alas, it’s simply that I’m running out of time to do everything I want in a day, I haven’t been selfishly chasing leads or anything like that.
Ok, thanks Nick Pelling. Usually these matters and such suspicions can be avoided with just a quick note like what you sent. Please take your time. I am sorry for misjudging things, but please consider that doubts don’t arise without a reason.
@Behrooz,
We’d all like to know your secret of persuasion. Do you think your persistence is the key?
Usually, they reply “The law states…”.
Of course equally, we could equally be suspicious that as we have never seen the originals they could be forgeries. There are so many fake stories around we may never know.
The implication is she didn’t sign because she was dead? But I have never known solicitors act for poor dead people and then create a plot which they didn’t need if she was dead? He just needed a death certificate in that scenario.
Whereas they might sign on her behalf if she was in say an ‘asylum’ as I think they were still called in the 1950s. Perhaps sanitarium = commune.
@Behrooz,
One story I started to research was of American Joan Tunney-Wilkinson. She had been kidnapped/disappeared in Norway in 1969. she ended up in Marseille. To recover she went to the UK. In 1970, she woke up one morning and got a hatchet and chopped the head off her husband. Because her brother was a senator and her dad a famous boxer she was allowed to move to a sanitorium in the USA. She got out and remarried.
I could imagine a similar crisis with Dorothy Jean. Carl removing locks from doors suggests he may have been trying to prevent her harming herself in the bathroom. It could be she kept losing children – accidentally/deliberately. Is there is a baby Webb in a graveyard, or maybe it wasn’t a cat that she left in the house and went on holiday and that cat became Roy’s daughter Brenda ‘in the records’.
Perhaps Carl wasn’t looking for Dorothy he was looking for ‘the cat’ – Brenda Webb his own daughter.
Over the years I’ve often observed that’s it’s a good thing that that applicants and respondents in divorce are rarely prosecuted for perjury.
Strewth indeed!
Without the soothing balm of my ever emollient interventions everyone seems to have gone stark raving mad, perhaps due to a deficit of intelligent contributions from the more enlightened commentators – in my case a result of a severe bout of rigor mortis of the spirit and imagination caused by world events and the tragic loss of my beloved amplifier in an inexplicable and terrifying episode of a distinctly non-divine irruption of the prima materia of the macrocosmic manifestation we all supposedly inhabit and cherish.
That charmless cambion JS seems to be spending most of his time fussing and fluttering around Gordon Crampon’s latest lucubrations and circumlocutions, visiting the Tampon Shunt website a minimum of 150 times a day. GC himself has revived Anemptyglass Wikia with the astonishing revelation that Dr John Barkly Bennett was Carl Webb’s first cousin as well as Doff’s. These Australian types sure like to keep it in the family!
milongal seems to have become julian although the obsession with bus stops remains. David Morgan has obviously been spending his time in another galaxy plotting with the Mysterons to bamboozle Earth’s inhabitants with his Irrelevancy Ray. Pete Bowes appears to have suffered a complete nervous breakdown and to be subject to hallucinatory delusions involving G-men, black ops and chopping the heads off chimeric scrub pythons amongst other ignes fatui.
And now my favourite (ahem) hermeneutician, Beetroot, seems to believe that you need to get a decree absolute from a corpse in order to make yourself single, footloose and fancy free once again.
To quote from the Lockyer vs Lockyer Divorce File our dear friend B provided :
“I, Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer, the abovenamed plaintiff hereby request that an Order Absolute shall be issued in this action. To the best of my knowledge information and belief this action has not abated by reason of the death of the above-named defendant.”
This “action” would only have been “abated” if Doff had snuffed it, which she clearly hadn’t, at least to Geoff’s knowledge, info and belief. Unless they have some very funny laws in South Australia, and I admit it is a very funny place, and not in a good way, a visit from the Grim Reaper would be a sufficient cause to nullify even the most unhappy and wearisome of marriages. Ceasing to exist is not a common reason given for divorcing a spouse, even in Chipping Sodbury. If death precedes a final annulment it would seem unnecessarily cruel and contumelious to continue with the legal proceedings, not to say wasteful of time, resources and energy.
Nick, you really must stop everything you are doing instantaneously at Beetroot’s command if you want to avoid arousing his (admittedly multifarious) suspicions. Remember what he said about poor darling Derek. Fibbing about being too busy won’t wash Mr P.
Keep up with the textual goetia folks. We still need to find out what happened to Doff. Even if SAPOL does eventually confirm that Somerton Man was in fact Glenn Miller. I, for one, still wanna find out about that hippie colony. Might even go there meself if I get the chance. Peace and love to all!
Whilst I don’t have any problems with Geoff wanting full clearance in the form of a decree absolute, notwithstanding that the death (in his belief) of Dorothy being sufficient in itself, I really do question the wording of his “request” which doesn’t satisfy my own spartan knowledge of legalistic jargon.
@SHurwood
I was merely drawing a parallel between a crime where a wife had a complete breakdown and killed her husband. It is a parallel with Carl and Dorothy and the ether and the poison. They both could have ended up in asylums.
It is difficult to explain why Carl would break the lock on the bathroom if he was the one wanting to kill himself and not be stopped.
Dear Mr Hurlinvective
We are not amused!
@Poppins Yes it can. There is a change of name record in VICTORIAN records NOT SA. Behrooz states he is not familiar with states in Australia (separate topic).
Not only aren’t we amused Highness, but also bemused. Sure looks like Mr. Hurtlewood’s invictives of old have been somewhat defused and Beroozed!
@Curio, how so? The article referring to the Scottish lassies photo with the Wendy Virtue signature says “Nearly 1000 new Australians will take part in an exhibition in Adelaide Town Hall later this month” …. how can Dorothy be in a new Australian’s event?
Dorothy Davis’ (1920-1998) grave has been located.
She was a beautiful lady and a mother.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/123408429/dorothy-davis
Dorothy Paterson interred at Sandridge Memorial Gardens, Mollymook, NSW apparently was born on 4 July 1920, according to Australian Cemeteries Index.
https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=16111727
@Poppins I have every document and list you could ever source for this event: 1000 is showmanship talk (selling the sizzle rather than the sausage).