Trying to work out what happened to Dorothy Jean “Doff” Webb (nee Robertson), I was told a few weeks back that after getting divorced (in absentia) from Carl Webb, Doff’s subsequent partner was Kevin D’Arcy. However, even though I can see that a Kevin Alexander D’Arcy is included in various private family trees online, nobody has so far written down much about him.
So here’s my attempt to put that (at least partially) right.
Kevin Alexander D’Arcy Family Tree
I started with some of the information suggested by commenter Belinda here. It didn’t take too long to find William “Billy” D’Arcy (b. 1893 Ballarat, died 1987 Bacchus Marsh) and his wife Florence (“Flora”) Jane D’Arcy (nee McKay) (b. 1899 Warrion, died 1986 Bacchus Marsh) and their son Kevin Alexander D’Arcy (b. 4 May 1923 Melbourne, d. 21 May 1991, “Rtd Taxation Officer” in the probate record).
In the electoral rolls, we can see Kevin’s parents living in Bacchus Marsh (1949, 1954, 1958, 1963, 1967, 1972, 1977, 1980), with Kevin appearing on the rolls only in 1977 and 1980. There’s also a James Allen D’Arcy (“valuer”) who appears there in the 1960s. One family tree asserts that they had five children (but no names, no evidence).
Kevin Alexander D’Arcy Military Records
What I found interesting was that Private Kevin Alexander D’Arcy (clerk, single, enlisted 1943, VX142120, 37/52 Australian Infantry Battalion, discharged 27 Aug 1946, 5ft 5in, blue eyes, medium complexion, light brown hair, no marks or scars) was marked up as living in Boort, Victoria in 1943 with his father W. D’Arcy.
Note that the correspondence in the file lists various other addresses:
- 1946, 3 Kembla St, Hawthorn
- 1953: 62 Coppin St, Richmond
- 1971: 49 Keith St, Alphington 3078
Could it be that the mention of “Bute” was merely ‘Chinese Whispers’, and the place we should have been looking at was actually Boort, waaaay inland in Victoria, near Lake Boort, in the vaguely Tolkienesque shire of Loddon? What on earth has ever happened in Boort? I mean, I’m every bit as big a fan of “gourmet green tomatoes” (apparently Boort’s most famous product) as the next man (…if the next man doesn’t happen to like them very much).
And indeed, if you look at the electoral rolls for Boort in 1942, you see William “Darey” (public servant) and Flora Jane “Darey” (i.e. both misspelled!), S.R.W.S. Res., Holloway St, Boort. (But they’re in neither the 1937 nor 1949 electoral rolls for Boort.) So this whole sequence does seem to be basically correct.
But what about prior to 1943? If you search Trove for “Billy D’Arcy”, you’ll find (ignoring the lightweight boxer of the same name!) a 03 Sep 1932 Bacchus Marsh Express column called “Melton As Coursing Centre”, which mentions Billy D’Arcy.
If you further search the two Bacchus Marsh papers in Trove for “D’Arcy”, you’ll see a 28 Feb 1953 engagement of Doreen Elizabeth, eldest daughter of Mr & Mrs W. D’Arcy of Maddingley, to Andrew Connell. There’s also the 1952 marriage of Joan D’Arcy (younger daughter of Mr & Mrs W. D’Arcy) to Mr Raymond Marett.
And who is the source of Kevin Alexander’s name? Or if you can’t tell who, what is their source? Is there any document or just a vague memory? If Abbott and Colleen had access to the divorce document, I doubt they would have confused Bute and Boort, but if this has been communicated via a video or phone call, they could have confused them amidst different English accents. Even the more bizarre version of Bute in Scotland could be a possibility, after all that’s where Duncan Robertson was born (Dorothy’s great grandfather)
I agree with you on the Boort location and posted about it a couple of weeks ago:
“So many questions…
Is it possible that someone has access to this divorce file and has shared it with Abbott and Fitz verbally? If so, could Boort and Bute have been misconstrued?”
misca: missed that, sorry! Cipher Mysteries is getting so many comments every day it’s all become a bit of a blur, alas. 🙁
Pat: I did mention my source at the time, and he has been mentioned 10+ times here since (for various reasons).
If it is Boort vs Bute, this suggests that Colleen Fitzpatrick is relaying information from the divorce deposition second hand, ie she doesn’t have a copy & may not have personally read it… It would make sense from a legal perspective that it was Dorothy’s nephew who had gained access as the closest living relative to one of the parties. In this case any ideas that Carl is trying to find Dorothy or she was trying to find him become quite thin… Perhaps someone could clarify with Derek Abbot?
Jo: the pair of them only ever get it right when they’re cutting and pasting from Cipher Mysteries. 😁 The rest of the time it’s the fast train back to Supposition Central. 🙁
I heard on one of the podcasts, h’mm, can’t remember which now, but Colleen said something like the Divorce document had around 7 to 10 pages (don’t quote me) in it so I’m pretty sure she’s seen it …. will try and find the reference …. but I’m thinking the Bute address was probably on the document with a postcode, I mean, wouldn’t Dorothy have had to provide an address for correspondence? Just a thought. Oh boy, I’d like to see that document!!
Couple of points if I may. After initially being a bit wary of NP’s mysterious Kevin (no name) D’Arcy and then coming across a fair candidate for compatability with NAA’s record on ‘Alexander’, I’ve more or less left it for JCL punters to stuff it up with their well meaning irrelevance. Some things I did manage to glean following up on the D’Arcy NAA file were, a death date, tax officer employment, continued apparent single status post service, his dad Bill’s Boorta/Sydney connection pre WW1 and Kev’s own unexplained extension of service as a ‘baggy ass’ in New Britain a year beyond cessation of hostilities in WW2. Think I’ll let Pat and others play with this long delayed thread, see what transpires if anything. js
Nick Pelling: All you mentioned at the time, from memory, was the name Kevin Alexander D’Arcy and your source as being some elderly unamed fellow which I gathered was most likely to be Dr. John Bennett’s cagey son and family historian Bruce (72) who is undoubtedly also Derek Abbotts leg pulling informant.
….sans Alexander of course, that was my own humble contribution; later jumped upon by Peter Davidson with his pretty NAA cum Geni extended dossier then taken up by punters at large.
Ah, found the reference mentioned in my previous post … it’s at the 32.44 mark on the Gray Hughes Investigates episode of 20 August ’22: “…. and she proceeds with the divorce. And she has to write 7 or 8 pages, just like explaining why she’s divorcing him”. Lot of pages, hey!
@Nick,
That’s the only time you said who was your source, that I can remember…
`nickpelling
on August 5, 2022 at 1:17 am said:
milongal: a little bird just told me that Dorothy Jean Robertson’s second husband was Kevin D’Arcy`
Nick – Doreen Elizabeth did marry Thomas Arnold Connell and they spent most of what can be found of their recorded life farming in a place referred to on electoral rolls as Gincni. (I’m not sure where that is. Could it be the name of the farm?). Does anyone have an idea what this could mean???
Maybe Kevin used his parent’s address for practical purposes but perhaps they were living on a farm/larger homestead elsewhere?
And…Joan Floris D’Arcy married Raymond Francis Marett. He was a mechanic and later an electrician and died in 1973.
Kevin Alexander’s dad William D’Arcy, born to Joseph & Mary of Ballarat, was a puny light weight clerk from Ballarat, who lived in Sydney prior to enlistment in 1918 so may well have boxed at Sydney stadium in his twenties. He RTA’d in late 1919 and records give his location in the 60’s as being Brighton Vic., no mention of Boort, Bute or even Bum fodder and in the context of hooking up with Dorothy Jean Webb, the boy from Boort might yet prove to be a bum rap.
Bit off topic, sorry… Can someone explain or point me in the right direction to the meaning of the Australian phone number system back in 1948? The two letters and four digits? And what is the other number found in the Rubaiyat along with Jessica’s phone number? Thanks in advance!
@Mary, thanks! It seems Colleen has/had access to the papers.
I should add that Kevin Alexander D’Arcy is in the Victoria electoral rolls for 1949 and 1954 at 62 Coppin St, Richmond, Yarra. (Occupation: “nil”)
@Pat: go to wikipedia and then wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Australia#1960s (I know, 60s are a bit late, but still….).
There’s also a mention of Adelaide in the talk part of that page “talk” part of that page
I’m guessing that Mrs Amatruda was Kevin D’Arcy’s landlady:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205321102?searchTerm=UL2634 – 19 Mar 1947
WALLET Lost, Caulfield E., Saturday
morning, containing 2 bank books,
ration cards. Good reward. Return Mrs.
Amutruda. 62 Coppin-street. East Malvern.
(Also: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205318744?searchTerm=UL2634 )
…and I’m guessing that this was Kevin’s bike:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/235344948?searchTerm=UL2634 – 13 Nov 1947
Sale, Bicycle, tap. frame, 2 chrome
side-pull brakes, chrome gen. set.
Hendrick rims, pump, etc., excellent
condition, as new; £15/15/-. ‘Phone
UL2634.
Here Mrs H Amatruda is, being charitable in 1949:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243689958?searchTerm=Amatruda
And here she is again, hosting a 1949 cocktail party:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243680271?searchTerm=Amatruda
@ milongal, thanks a lot! I’m trying to figure out that other number on the Rubaiyat, was it W9048? Or is it another dead end?
@Nick, ‘occupation nil’ sounds like Dorothy’s kind of man, hasn’t she learnt her lesson?
Kevin D’Arcy
28 Aug1953
Sunshine, Victoria, Australia
Título da publicação Sunshine Advocate (VIC)
ACCOMMODATION WANTED TWO or three rooms and kitchen required by young couple. Reply to KevinD’Arcy, MM1480.
@ Nick – I think you’re on the wrong Coppin Street – there is one in both of Richmond & East Malvern, isn’t Kevin in Richmond?
Nick – I have six electoral listings for Kevin from 1949 – 1980 and his occupation for every one is nil.
@NP: Any reason that would be D’arcy’s bike is it just that it uses the same number that Amatruda uses?
There seems to be a number of “Lady’s clothes” (Fur coat Aug 1949, Floral suit Feb 1947, Lady’s tailored suit Mar 1948) being sold from the same address – so perhaps the land lady is doing a lot of this selling….
Nick
No joy here..
Mrs Amatruda lived at 62 Coppin St, East Malvern
Kevin lived at 62 Coppin St, Richmond.
Richmond is the gritty inner city. Malvern is a leafy suburb 10km SE of Richmond
http://randomfh.blogspot.com/2018/10/finding-jestyns-phone-number-rubaiyat.html?m=1
@ Pat – apparently the numbers are covered up in later photos of the page with the codes, but can be seen in a July 1949 Adelaide Advertiser article “This Beat the Navy”. I think the person who wrote the big entry could be right but I can’t make out the numbers! I’ve never seen the second number published anywhere…
I wonder whether it is still in a police file, given this is a cold case… or it’s simply something that has gone awry…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/36683694?searchTerm=This%20beat%20the%20navy
@ Pat – here’s the 1949 “This beat the Navy” article
Kevin was at 62 Coppin Street, Richmond.
Mrs. Amatruda is at 62 Coppin Street, East Malvern.
She does seem very sweet though.
(Been there, done that.)
Sorry, by “been there, done that” I mean it’s a very easy mistake to make particularly if one isn’t Australian. I have made similar mistakes that have taken me down needlessly extended paths many, many times.
I’m curious as to where all the D’Arcy’s buried themselves? Did they have their own cemetery? Seriously, none of their burial records show up! Flora’s is the only one I have found so far.
They’re most likely here:
https://map.chronicle.rip/maddingley-cemetery
Where you have to make an account to find your relative. All sponsored by some search engine that makes money off people looking for their heritage. Bleh.
Greenhill is about an hour’s drive north of Bacchus Marsh on the way toward Boort.
KEANE. — A tribute to the memory of F/O. John (Jack) Keane, who lost his life in aircraft accident over Northern Ire land November 29, 1943. Fond memories. —
Dot. Greenhlll.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206014339?searchTerm=%22John%20Russell%20Keane%22
milongal: What if I told you that your Dorothy Jean Sly nee Evans of Bega NSW just popped up while doing my level best to suss out a certain Thomas Kevin D’Arcy 1918/90 also from cheesy Bega. A whole lot of info is involved which I’m happy for other sleuths to tackle as it’s rather beyond my attention span to fathom or even attempt to. Suffice to say, from this new Webb of intrigue, I’ve been able to narrow things down somewhat to a pair of Dorothy Jean Evans identities for considerstion. One old gal is of the correct Doff 1920 vintage and t’other from 1926 according to her RAAF file in which she nominates Mary Robertson (Jack’s missus) as being her very own next of kin. How’s about that for a rare well spotted comment or two from punters still poking around aimlessly out there in Boort and Bute.
Putting this one on this thread vs “electrical fitter and instrument maker” where it might better fit as there seems to be discussion flying everywhere at the moment…
I’ve been trying to reconcile “electrical fitter” with study at Swinburne and the local newspaper mentions of work at the bakery. A couple of things might work here. Firstly, according to the Electrical Trade Union, electrical trades weren’t included in the Victorian Apprenticeship Act until 1927 – entry to electrical trades prior to this sounds a little ad hoc, so the route from school to electrical fitter was probably on the job:
https://www.etuvic.com.au/ETUV/About/Our_History/ETUV/About/Our_History
Pat gave a good RAAF description of electrical fitters – here’s another:
“Electrical Fitter means a fitter mainly engaged in making fitting, or repairing electrical machines, instruments or appliances and who in the course of his/her work applies electrical knowledge, including the welding, fabrication, and erection of brackets and equipment associated with electrical installation work.” It also includes armature winders (ie coils for electrical machinery etc).
I’ve mentioned that Kelly and Lewis would be a good fit for employment. During the 1920s and 30s it seems that this could be a bit precarious, there are frequent mentions of layoffs and lack of capital:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/200677717?searchTerm=Kelly%20and%20Lewis
Employees put off
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213963944?searchTerm=Kelly%20and%20Lewis
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/200680870?searchTerm=Kelly%20and%20Lewis
– lack of capital
So, supplementing uncertain periods of factory work with bakery work during the early 1930s sounds like a go.
Between 1939 and 1941 Charlie’s occupational description changes to “Instrument Maker” – which isn’t a far leap from “Electrical Fitter”. I’m wondering if he followed the same route as Derry George (who had the same Swinburne Tech education, ten years later than Charlie, followed by three years as a motor mechanic – see his service file, provided earlier by @Mary). George returns to Swinburne Electrical Lab prior to or early in his enlistment to do “cadet training” .
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=4396257&isAv=N
We know that three of Charlie’s nephews join the airforce: Jack and Leo Keane and Norman Frederick Webb. Could Charlie have been seeking something similar and been tapped on the shoulder for work at Fisherman’s Bend (aircraft manufacture) or … signals instrument making/servicing? We don’t have any addresses between Springvale and 274 Domain Road…
Signals related instrument work still in for me, due to Charlie’s Bromby Street address and the ability for Dorothy to disappear from the electoral roll, implying some level of protection or evasion.
@ Byron, @ Jamie – could the lead also be tetraethyl from petrol? Charlie seems to be in frequent proximity to cars, with opportunities to learn about modifying and tinkering with them … In Australia car enthusiasts are often referred to as “petrol heads”!
Could Charlie have replied to Prosper’s ad for a business partner and the business has gone sour, resulting in nasty squabbles and threats? One of them at least has sought a gun… (albeit after the death, but as noted before, this could be to cover some tracks)…
The Ruyiat and the car? Who knows… Someone who probably knows what Tamam Shud means…Charlie and/or someone else?
…..as an aside, RAAF Aircraft woman Dorothy Jean Evan married Sgt. Darval Sly, a Bega boy who served in intelligence with 2/1 Independant Coy and it’s deep cover clandestine radio specialist ‘M’ Force affiliate behind enemy lines in islands off PNG during WW2, having the distinction of being awarded the U.S. Army Silver Star for gallantry in so doing.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201085145?searchTerm=Kelly%20and%20Lewis%20return%20to%20employment
Was trying to find this one again earlier – discusses men being put off at Kelly and Lewis around the time that Charlie is described as working in the bakery. It also gives a good description of what was happening at the factory. (NB – I don’t have a spotting for Charlie, its just a good fit).
Dorothy Jean was just 19 upon her inlistment for RAAF service in ’45. Folks may not yet have put into proper perspective, my take on her NAA service papers that this single woman named Evans had put forward Mary Robertson (Doff Webb’s mum?) as her NOK. How the heck does that make sence pray tell? got me buggered!!!
@ Jo
Thanks a lot, I will give it a good read, but wait a minute, so this other Rubaiyat number has never been disclosed by the police?
Regarding your other posts, I think you’re an excellent researcher and storyteller. Let me know if I can help you with anything. I don’t have your skills but if my obsession with finding things could help in any way…
@misca
Great find! Do you think this Dot could be a girlfriend or THE Dorothy? This is 1944… was she supposed to be living with Carl at Greenhill? Or could this be her parents’ house or someone else’s?
@Everyone
IF Dorothy died somewhere in NSW late 90’s (or maybe not, depending on her nephew’s vague memory), let’s assume she and Phyllis were not in close contact but someone who was in contact with Dorothy had Phyllis’ phone number or address… When Dorothy died this person contacted Phyllis and said ‘Look, your sister’s dead and we don’t have the dough to bury her properly, so can you help us sis?’ (I’m again assuming that the hippie commune thing still applies, even though Dorothy would be in her 70’s. By the way, I have some friends living in a sort of commune and they’re all above 65. Anyway, Dorothy could have been buried/cremated by someone who had no idea of her ‘real’ name and birth record details. How exactly would that work, regarding the Australian law?
I have found some ‘candidates’ based on these assumptions and I would need some help to find more info on them…
Dorothy Roberts, b. 1920, d. 19 Jan 1989, Waverly Cemetery, Bronte, Waverly Council, NSW
Dorothy Angel (yeah, dude), b. 1920, d. Dec 1994, Field of Mars Cemetery, East Ryde, Ryde City, NSW
Dorothy Davies, b. 1920, d.10 July 1998, Frenchs Forestry Cemetery, Davidson, Northern Beaches Council, NSW
Bear in mind that somewhere, someone has mentioned that someone else has mentioned Phyllis said she went by the name of Jean… (sigh)
`Difficulty has been experienced in securing the right type of instrument maker, most of the applicants being watchmakers in private life, but they have not the necessary additional qualifications.`
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230804384?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FS%2Ftitle%2F1180%2F1938%2F09%2F18%2Fpage%2F24659251%2Farticle%2F230804384
Maybe Carl was a `watchmaker in private life`? What exactly was the ‘right type of instrument maker’ for the RAAF?
INSTRUMENT MAKERS
SYDNEY. Wednesday. “It is safe to predict that instrument makers will be at a premium in an international crisis,” said Mr. Frederick H. Paton, managing director of Paton Electrical Pty. Ltd., in evidence before the Tariff Board to-day.
“I can vouch for the fact,” he added, “that in the last war they were discouraged from enlIsting, and were sought for even in the front-line trenches.”
Mr. Paton was supporting a request for increased duties on moving coil-type meters, as used in the manufacture of radio and electrical testing and measur-
ing instruments when imported separately or as part of such Instruments
The inquiry was adjourned to Melbourne.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12073147?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1938%2F12%2F08%2Fpage%2F594005%2Farticle%2F12073147
Pat: whoever “that (infirmed) someone else……” was, they seem to have been on the money. If one cares to check out the tombstone of Dorothy Jean’s late hubby they will note his missus is listed as Jean. On her own separate plaque from 1990 her full monicker Dorothy Jean Sly is inset…you don’t seem to be wavering on your quest for a connection to poor dead Doff nor paying any heed to advice re same…(sigh)
Right after Carl’s marriage… great job opportunity!
MELBOURNE, Monday: — An urgent appeal for instrument makers to assemble optical munitions was made to-day by the Minister for Munitions (Mr. Makin).
He said the production of high precision components, such as lenses and
prisms, was now in full flow. The only obstacle to the quantity of output of
complete instruments was the acute shortage of persons qualified to assemble components. There was no age limit and even qualified applicants who were in retirement were asked to communicate with the secretary of the
Board of Area Management, Department of Munitions, in their own State.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/192626960?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FT%2Ftitle%2F1007%2F1941%2F12%2F30%2Fpage%2F21622428%2Farticle%2F192626960
Pat –
“Do you think this Dot could be a girlfriend or THE Dorothy? This is 1944… was she supposed to be living with Carl at Greenhill? Or could this be her parents’ house or someone else’s?”
When I first read a while back, I assumed it was a sister as I hadn’t figured out the family tree yet. Now, I think it’s likely that it’s Dorothy.
Here’s one type of instrument maker job I had no idea about.
Strike May Close Sydney Works
SYDNEY, Friday-Seven instrument makers at the Imperial Chemical Industries works at Botany who have disregarded an A.C.T.U. direction to return to work, may cause the plant to close. They have been on strike for eight weeks on a demand for increased margins. As a result of a ban on sections of the plant there was no work for 140 fitters and their assistants, a company spokesman said to-day.
A conference called by the A.C.T.U. a week ago decided to demand increased margins for all I.C.I. employees throughout Australia, but the Botany instrument makers were directed to return to work.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/134660379?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FN%2Ftitle%2F356%2F1954%2F07%2F17%2Fpage%2F10137578%2Farticle%2F134660379
Maybe Carl was too old for the RAAF? Or maybe he was a conchie…
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954) Wed 20 mar 1940
Page 12
No title
Trainee wireless operators, electricians, fitters and instrument makers of the
R.A.A.F. enjoying a meal at their barracks at the Melbourne Technical College,
West Melbourne, yesterday.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204428487?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F809%2F1940%2F03%2F20%2Fpage%2F19414230%2Farticle%2F204428487
Dorothy Jean Robertson nee Webb was born on 18th July, 1920 according to a family research entry cited by Angela way back in early August, it being the only definate semi reliable reference to her DOB from memory. In the case of Jean Sly nee Dorothy J. Evans, her headstone gives a DOB of 28th June, 1920 which does not seem too far out and may even suggest that the first date relates to a birth registration or perhaps a Christening.
….upon recapitulation, Mary Robertson was infact Dot Webb’s grandmother, not her mum? as suggested in my post of 9.15am. 23rd inst. Makes little difference to my mention of coincidental relativity for Ms. D. J. Evans RAAF and aforesaid Dot Webb.
@ Pat & Misca – Dot could also be Jack’s aunt, Doris Martin, I think she was known as Dot? I’m not sure why she would be in Greenhill though…she lived in Moonee Ponds.
I found this on the internet:
(https://somerandomstuff1.wordpress.com/2018/10/06/cracking-the-tamam-shud-code/)
It works for me! Am I missing something? I’ve rearranged the original message to make it easier to decode
Ann
September 12, 2020 at 3:53 pm
The unsolved message is the last line in Tamam Shud (should be Rubyiat – Jo) backwards. Don’t know if it has an alternate message:
Tamam Shud (MRGOABABD-DUHSMAMAT)
2nd line has a line though it.
(MTBIMPANETP-OEDAMIEREHW)
Where I made o
(MLIABOAIAQC-NWODNRUT-EN)
ne turn down
(ITTMTSAMSTGAB-!SSALGYTPMENA)
An empty glass!
It is not too sophisticated…who knows! (That’s from Ann)
This is from Jo:
Is this simply Charlie devising and playing with his own code? Here is Verse 75 of the Rubaiyat:
Verse 75:
And when Thyself with shining Foot shall pass
Among the Guests Star-scatter’d on the Grass
And in they joyous Errand reach the Spot
Where I made one – turn down an empty Glass
TAMAM SHUD
Perhaps the Tamam Shud was meant for Prosper, in return for his empty (car business) glass?
I wonder who Ann is?
…crikies, now I’m getting my facts out of sync. too. Of course it was Dorothy Evans last mentioned what married Darval Lyall Sly and became Jean, not her younger namesake, who served at 5 RAAF hospital Tucumwal west of Bega until 1946. Be nice figure out what became of the young nurse, if only to get to the bottom of her familial connection to her NOK Mary Robertson.
@ Pat – thank you! I really enjoy the international spirit of investigation and collaboration on Cipher Mysteries!
Pat,
“Maybe Carl was too old for the RAAF? Or maybe he was a conchie…”
Maybe, but there is another, more likely explanation, which I’ve mentioned before: “reserved occupations”, i.e. scarce skills deemed too vital to the war effort and barred from military service. I’m 99% certain that ROs included the _civilian_ instructors who trained RAAF, RAN and army personnel in instrument making/fitting.
If Kevin Alexander D’Arcy was Dorothy’s ‘partner’, could Kevin and Sandy (from ‘auntie’ Phyllis’ obituary) be Dorothy’s son and daughter or grandchildren? Kevin D’Arcy and Alexandra D’Arcy? Or do you think they are related to Phyllis via Jim Crick? The names sound strikingly coincidental. If they are still around (I hope so), maybe they know something else about Dorothy, but don’t want to share it. If that’s the case I suppose Dorothy (or Jean) is a dead end, no pun intended.
@Furphy,
And would these RO civilians have any sort of registration in the RAAF?
Pat –
Which obituary are you referring to? Could you post it? The two I have found do not have a Kevin and Sandy.
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/heraldsun-au/obituary.aspx?n=phyllis-crick-robertson&pid=157828214
This is the obituary for James Crick:
https://www.mytributes.com.au/notice/death-notices/crick-james-claude-jim/4677406/
I don’t know if this link will work directly to the picture I am trying to show. If it doesn’t, the photograph in question is 65 of 86 and is entitled “Robertson’s Farm, Pentland Hills circa 1921”.
https://whatknots.com.au/products/prints/bacchus-marsh/#widget-7dafa468-5a04-65f6-231c-2b1522cca693=page2
Some other interesting photos too.
Thumbs Up!
The potential decedents of Carl Webb are setting up a Q&A Website so people can ask them direct questions.
@ Misca
It was Milongal who posted the tribute, on 4 August:
milongal
on August 4, 2022 at 11:09 pm said:
Extrapolating the death tributes….
Although Dorothy J is never mentioned (almost like there’s been a falling out in the family) there is a notice for Jim Crick:
CRICK. _ Jim. Dearly loved and respected uncle to Sandy, Kevin and families. Deepest sympathy to Fay, Peter, Phillip, Joye and families. All our love, truly one of nature’s gentlemen.
I noticed an overlap in names between these names and three of Douglas and Hilda McCluskey’s children (Kevin, Sandra, Peter – from Allan, Beverley, Kevin, Sandra and Peter) it could be entirely coincidental…Douglas McCluskey being Russell Webb’s first son (born out of wedlock), who served with Z force in WWII.
I love the photo of Robertson’s farm! Although it looks bucolic it was probably back breaking work. The majority of soldier settlement blocks had failed as working farms by the mid 1930s – due to size, drought and inability to produce a family income. They were a great strain on family relationships too – one of my undergrad history lecturers, Marilyn Lake, wrote her PhD theses “The Limits of Hope” on the family dynamics of these small farms. I can’t remember if the farm near Beeac was JCRs settlement block or a subsequent farm…
I also noted the photo showing the planting of the Avenue of Honour in Bacchus Marsh – which is now full of beautiful mature trees and a heritage protected tourist attraction, as it still has some of the original Canadian elms. Almost every small town has a prominent war memorial and many in Victoria have Avenues of Honour (rows of trees as you enter the town, many with soldiers names attached). The number of WWI war dead was astounding for many small farming communities and it was too far away to ever repatriate bodies. The ANZAC legend was cultivated by a number of well placed people: Charles Bean (official war correspondent), Keith Murdoch (Rupert’s father) and Frank Tate (director of education in Victoria) amongst others. I think for many small communities memory was a very visceral and everyday experience, remembering real people.
@John Sanders, you little rascal, did you start the whole Kevin ‘Alexander’ D’Arcy search, lol. H’mm, should we in fact be looking at a bigger pool of Kevin no middle name D’Arcy’s floating around the various States, possibly NSW/SA?
@ misca
Regarding the obituary, it’s the same one, just scroll down to read the ‘entries’
Nice photos! Do you think these Robertson’s are John Comber & Co?
Warning: Random Somerton Man observation –
I was slightly stunned when I found out that Charles/Carl Webb was missing so many teeth; toothlessness can be quite unattractive to others and disabling for the person missing those teeth… I thought surely you’d remember a man missing so many teeth…
Derek Abbot had always pinned a lot on anodontia – which is congenitally missing teeth, in contemplating the possible Robin Thompson paternity connection. When I saw the dental diagram, undertaken as part of the autopsy, it seems that there were almost as many gaps (18) as actual teeth, so not all anodontia, possibly too much white bread and too many cakes…
I’ve been doing a bit of leafing through my 1934 copy of the Sands and McDougall directory of Victoria recently, since getting a bit too caught up in all of this Tamam Shud stuff… One thing that really struck me there was that there are more than three times as many boot repairers listed as there are dentists. This in the “Professional” section, where you’d expect to find the dentist but perhaps be surprised to find a boot repairer afforded professional status. Boot repairing was obviously higher in Maslow’s hierarchy of household needs than dentistry was back in Melbourne (or Springvale) in 1934….
Pat,
Re. reserved occupations: the short answer is that there other government departments dealt with matters of civilian war work (not the defence department, army, navy or air force).
ROs could include men of military age in a surprisingly wide number of civilian trades, from the more obvious science/technology skills useful in warfare/weapons making (e.g. electronics, mechanical engineering, metallurgy, industrial chemistry, meteorology etc), through to food production (agricultural scientists), public health (doctors) and even management/administration. (e.g. I know of one, probably rare, case where a man who enlisted in the AIF in 1940, underwent basic infantry training, before being advised that the army was required to “manpower out” anyone with experience in a skill that was becoming scarce amongst civilians – including, in his case, chartered accountants!)
My understanding is that there was no “civil conscription” as such, or any actual compulsion for such people to work in particular places; instead the lucrative wages and perks (such as extra petrol rations) on offer were too good to ignore.
A relevant example I posted about here several weeks ago, was the civilian instructors employed, indirectly, by the technical schools established in all of the largest cities to train new military recruits in the trades required. As the most “high tech” of the services, the RAAF required considerable numbers of engine mechanics, airframe fitters, armourers (as the air force refered to gunsmiths), wireless (radio) and, later, radar technicians – not to mention instrument makers/electrical fitters. And in fact the actual instructors used by the RAAF schools were usually civilian teachers, teaching in classrooms at pre-war technical schools (such as Swinburne), which underwent a massive expansion as a result. The army and navy had similar arrangements, although I know much less about that; my perception is that they handled training “in-house” more often and used far fewer civilian instructors.
@Mary Mary, quite contrary to what others might believe, I never had any real enthusiasm for Nick’s original Kevin D’Arcy lead with it’s bare minimum of detail, being mindful that it probably came from a source that I did not trust for a New York minute. Of course I wasn’t surprised when GC’s gopher PeteDavo took up my ‘Alexander’ clue and after his submitting a full spread on Kev’s NAA file two days thereafter everyone was anxious to get in for their share of the D’arcy prize. I’ll let you be the judge of how it’s all panning out courtesy of other dedicated CM geni researchers.
Jo, Yes Carl was missing a lot of teeth, but IMHO that was normal for his time. Particularly for someone who grew up in a bakery (pastry is a tooth killer). Drinking water in Australia has low fluoride content by international standards unless artificially fortified and the grains, meat and other foods are similarly deficient in fluoride by international standards. Also, the relatively high wages of the time lead to greater consumption of sugary foods and pastry, both of which are tooth killers. Australia ranked equal highest in the world in 1900 regarding standard of living with a standard of living twice that of the United States. For decades after the gold rushes Melbourne was known as “Marvellous Melbourne” and Melbourne, along with gold towns such as Bendigo and Ballarat were among the wealthiest towns in the world. Unfortunately such wealth attracts the wrong sorts. How things have changed. The losses (economic and social) incurred in both world wars, the depression, coupled with a weak manufacturing base at the time (and since), and an increase in the percentage of wrong uns’ has seen Australia slip down the rankings.
I have previously explained why I think Carl suffered from connective tissue disease, and why this is important for our evaluation and understanding of him. A common feature of connective tissue disease is gingival hyperplasia which often leads to serious tooth decay. This is a testable hypothesis. DNA mutations associated with this disorder should show up in Carl’s DNA and Carl’s remaining teeth should show severe undercutting of the dentine caused by the gingival hyperplasia
Jo, anodontia looks different from simple tooth loss because there is no gap with anodontia whereas tooth loss, except in the case of very early tooth loss, does leave a gap. I understand that Carl’s skull was recovered so maybe we will find out.
Jo –
Claude Crick had a brother Joseph. His daughter Sandra (Sandy) married a Kevin.
You never know, but I think it’s a coincidence.
@Byron Deveson,
Maybe the cumulative effect of lead poisoning has affected his teeth? Or was it determined in the post-mortem that he was born without them?
Jo, where can I view the autopsy diagram of Carl’s teeth?? I never heard anything about that being out there for all to see…Is it?
Thanks!
@genealogists out there,
John Comber Robertson was born in Omeo or Bairnsdale? Same place, close to each other?
Pat: John Comber Robertson, for whatever it’s worth in your scheme of things, was born at Ensay Gippsland according to his inlistment application. Geographically speaking it lies about 80 kilometres north of Bairnsdale by road and 45 kilometres south of Omeo. Not all that “close to each other” (? ? noted) in my books although in the same general heading away from both Melbourne town and Ballarat.
@Glen, thanks for the thumbs up, look forward to hearing more about that one, keep us posted, Q&A, how wonderful!
Jo ,
The code interpretation from the Rubiayat.
Just looking at the last line:
ITTMTSAMSTGAB = !SSALGYTPMENA
Supposedly it is saying T =S as in Glass,
There are 4 Ts on the left, but only 2 Ss on the right.
What am I missing?
@ Mary –
https://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/wiki/index.php/Primary_source_material_on_the_Taman_Shud_Case
Inquest files and other primary source material can be found here on Derek Abbot’s University Wiki page.
@John Saunders
Was JC Robertson’s dad the master criminal?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66912315?searchTerm=robertson%2C%20gippsland
He had rubber stamps made for signatures so he could become entitled to land or cash.
He also got away with it by repaying the stolen cash with 8% interest and served 2 years hard labour with periods in solitary confinement. I don’t think they knew the full extent so perhaps he kept some land in Gippsland.
They said in court the case was complex.
@ David – Tamam Shud spelled backwards and mapped against MRGOABD is the only one that works 100% – the others are hit and miss. Glass! spelled backwards is mapped against ITTMTS – so not a quick and easy match. The point is the Charlie may simply have been using the Rubiayat to design and play with codes.
Sins of the father tend to carry over through familial blood lines to their kids ie., ‘birds of a feather’ Lets nay forget misca’s obiturising Sharpies mob were from Lakes Entrance over the way from Bill Robert’s criminal stamping ground in the general vicinitity of Bairnsdale and Kilimna, the latter not to be confused with Kadina on the Yorke Peninsula.
RE the empty glass I don’t get how your cipher works, but it isn’t making sense for me, Every line except the first seems to have inconsistencies in letter mappings – or have I totally misunderstood what you mean?
NB: There’s a site called briandreams (or something similar) where some ‘psychic’ posts random bumblings from his dreams. One of them includes the SM cipher with some interesting similarities in how he spaces/lays it out. It also includes an extra line, and a suburb in Queensland. Much as I suspect it’s someone having a joke (and writing stuff he’s seen elsewhere), it’s a mildly interesting distraction – especially if the additional characters his got fit in somehow (from memory the QLD suburb is separated from the rest of the code, but there is an extra line that presents as though it’s part of the code).
I’ve struggled to get a link, because the site seems to have a policy that you can only view things so many times without signing up to it….but I think I originally found it searching MLIABO on google and selecting images….but can’t seem to find it again now
….also must cast some doubt on authenticity of John and Dorothy Robertson’s alleged signatures on the Webb marriage certificate, a generous minute sampling of which our site meister gave us to work with.
@ John Sanders,
Thanks! I just like to have the map in my mind so I can navigate people’s stories geographically. He has 3 different birth places so far, cool! I suppose we can say he was born somewhere in Gippsland.
Victoria Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages. Birth: John Comber Robertson. Registration number: 31958/1894, District: OMEO. Father: Robert Robertson. Mother: Mary Kate Comber.
Victoria Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages. Death: John Comber Robertson. Registration number: 1074/1989, Place of death: West Heidelberg. Place of birth: BAIRNSDALE. Age at Death: 94. Father: Robert Robertson. Mother: Catherine Comber. Spouse at death: Alice Stratford.
National Archives of Australia: B2455, First Australian Imperial Force Personnel Dossiers, 1914-1920; ROBERTSON John Comber : Service Number – 480 : Place of Birth – ENSAY VIC : Place of Enlistment – Broadmeadows VIC : Next of Kin – (Sister) ROBERTSON Maude.
John Comber Robertson’s sister Maude had just 2 children, one in 1921 and the other in 1925, just like Alice Robertson.
‘Maude was born on 26 April 1889 and married Ernest Arnold Burnett, son of James, in 1918. His family was from Ballarat. He was a carpenter by trade but was an insurance agent in Camperdown, then East Geelong and then a coal carter in the depression and from 1933 the postmaster at Drysdale. They had two children: Maxwell James, 1921, And Alma May, 1925.’
Same thing happened with the other sister Robina.
‘Robina “Ruby” was born on 26 May 1893 and married James Leslie Charles 1885-1963, son of John Charles 1849-1917 and Sarah Wells, in 1917, and had three children. The younger two children John Robert 1918 and James William 1920 , drowned on 22 January 1933. The third child was Graham Robertson Charles 1926.’
I think this is quite peculiar, women used to have one children every 2 years or so in those times. What happened between 1922 and 1925? How would they avoid getting pregnant? All I can think of is that their husbands weren’t around… or am I missing something?
David Morgan: whatever you’re missing can most likely to be found shuffling through relevant dedicated SM Ciphermystery posts pre August 2022 eg., last line of the code page ITTAMTSMSGAB translates as follows; Intercity Tram Terminus & Motor Train Station Moseley Street Glenelg Adjacent Beach…Nothing whatever to do with Saturday in Deutchland whilst t’other three lines consist of relevant street turns, em/de busments from Adelaide Station &c., if you follow my drift.
I know this subject has been mentioned before, but I am a bit lost!
Lindsay Robert Kennedy, b. 27 Feb 1908 in Taggerty, d. 27 Feb 1981 in Malvern (VIC# 10775 / 1981)
Married Eileen May Robb (1913- 27 July 1998) in 1947 (VIC# 21884 / 1947)
Enlisted 19 June 1940 in Caulfield – 27 Sep 1946
Lindsay Robert Kennedy, b. 1908 in Alexandra (VIC# 8058 / 1908), d. 1981 in Malvern
Parents: David Kennedy, Margaret Jane Kennedy (nee Robinson)
1939 – Alexandra. Goulburn
1941 – Alexandra Goulburn
1946 – Alexandra, Goulburn with David Kennedy and Henry Ross Kennedy
1948 (22 Oct) – Alexandra and Yea Standard Yarck, Gobur, Thornton and Acheron Express, Alexandra, Victoria
Married Dorothy Jean Webb in 1952 (VIC# 19472 / 1952)
Dorothy Jean Webb, b. 1920 in Yea (VIC# 17509 /1920), mother Jean Keir Bett, father Richard Harold Bowtree
Question 1) Lindsay Kennedy and Lindsay Robert Kennedy are the same person?
Question 2) Dorothy Jean Webb is not ‘our Dorothy’, but the fact that she was a Webb, despited her mother being a Bett and father a Bowtree, means she had been married before to a Webb? Or am I missing something (again)?
Interestingly, Lindsay Robert Kennedy’s brother Henry Ross Kennedy married Florence Jean McKenzie in 1947 in Corowa, NSW and died in 15 Aug 1995 in Thornton, NSW (Lindsay Robert lived in Thornton, Vic, by the time he has enlisted).
In the William Lovat Robertson criminal case he deliberately created a false trail by making his disappearance appear as a suicide then buying a train ticket he didn’t use. In 1948, we have Carl Webb buying a train ticket to Henley Beach he didn’t use and supposedly committing suicide.
Why was the false trail option not considered? That he thought he was being followed or knew he was being followed?
Perhaps the suitcase thrown on the beach in Glenelg on the 28th November 1948 was Carl’s attempt at a false trail suicide then switching his clothes and appearance.
David Morgan: I very much doubt that Dorothy Robertson would let on to her new husband or anyone outside her own family about the sins of her grand father Bill, would you? Of course she would have been aware of his background, as would cousin Dr. John Bennett, but not her brother-in-law Gerald Thomas Keane who she met up with in Adelaide where he was engaged making costumes for Joanna Priest in late November ’48. As for the unused train ticket and fake suicide concept, they have been aired previously, so too the dumped suutcase ruse from memory. Well thought out on your part though and I’m very impressed with your figuring on a similar ploy based on fact; Well spotted indeed that man!
I guess most people who stage a false suicide don’t actually suicide and don’t normally wind up dead around the same time and place.
Given Carl winds up dead his motivation for staging a false suicide would be what?
He either suicides anyway so why set ups false suicide ? or he’s killed so his false trail provides an alibi for his eventual killer.
I like your thinking David but that’s struggle for mine
….Hey hang up a bit Dave, here we are talking about a William Lovat Robertson having been Jack Comber’s errant dad, but going back over the Robertson family tree we have Robert Robertson in the role of the late 19th century clan patriarch. What’s the deal, surely Dorothy’s plan for her hubby’s suicide would need to have as it’s catylist a grandad correctly identified. So what’s it to be old cob Bill or Bob?
@john sanders,
ITTMTSAMSTGAB
Re: Intercity Tram Terminus & Motor Train Station [A] Moseley Street Glenelg Adjacent Beach
My original interpretation was more Forrest Gump:
I Travel To Moseley Tram Stop at Moseley STreet Go Around Back
The reason I switched to translating morse code was his problem with M and W. If you were chatting to Prospect Thomson on the phone for directions to buy a car/rent his house he’s not going to have a speech impediment where he starts a word with W when he means M –
‘Oh not Wolseley you mean Moseley’
Father: Richard Harrow Bowtree Webb…
Is it possible to have access to Kevin Alexander Darcy’s Will (Sep 1991)?
Giving the fact that Boort was/is a small place, I thought it would be interesting to look for Robertsons in Carlton which is the biggest place nearby. Just one (Angus), but lots of Bennetts! Maybe one of them is related to the Robertsons? Can someone (John Sanders, I think has made the connection for the first time) provide the family tree connecting the Robertsons and the Bennetts, s’il vous plait?
Pat: the Bennett haberdashers/emporeum owners Walter and William Bennett were SA immigrants from the early days of Settlement and I can’t find any familial connections to Drs. Norman, John, son Bruce or the Robertson clan but, soit mon invite’.
Pat
I posted this comment on 25 August showing the tree connecting the Robertsons and Bennetts.
“For those of you who haven’t twigged to Colonel Sanders’ link between Doff and Dr John Barkly Bennett here it is in black and white:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Robertson-11194
Click on Duncan Robertson’s descendants.”
John Co(o)mber Robertson’s father Robert’s sister Mary (“Belle of the Ball” in Ballarat) married Arthur Barkly Bennett, John Barkly Bennett’s grandfather.
As usual here my comment was completely ignored by all (except the Colonel himself).
Just like my link between Doff, her second cousin John Barkly Bennett, the woman he married in 1950 Nan (Nadine) Sparrow, and Jessica Harkness/Thomson. Nan lived with her family before her wedding at 105 Moseley Street, Glenelg which a quick look on Google Street Maps will show you is dead opposite 90a Moseley Street where Jessica lived. Nan trained as a nurse at the Royal Adelaide Hospital from 1947 and as we know Jessica had also trained as a nurse so is it unlikely that they knew each other?
Nan’s family was very well connected, being friends with Howard and Ada Dunstan who also lived in Moseley Street – Ada was the daughter of a Lord Mayor of Adelaide (1933-37), Sir Jonathon Cain (who lived for a while at the Dunstans’ Moseley Street address) and served as Lady Mayoress due to her mother’s illness. See:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/36589808?searchTerm=%22mrs%20howard%20dunstan%22%20lord%20mayor
Mrs Dunstan was also later president of the Royal Adelaide Hospital Auxiliary – see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48886982?searchTerm=%22mrs%20howard%20dunstan%22%20royal%20adelaide%20hospital
Later the Dunstans held a pre-wedding party for Dr Bennett and Nan -see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130798836?searchTerm=%22nadine%20sparrow%22
Incidentally a later Lord Mayor of Adelaide, Ernest Short, was chairman of the board of management of Somerton Crippled Children’s Home He died of peritonitis 17 days after becoming Lord Mayor on 2 July 1949 aged 59.
From the Adelaide Mail, 21 May 1949: “Mr. Short loves children. Through Rotary he first realised South Australia provided no special place for looking after those in need. When a friend got £5,000 from Lord Nuffleld, who stipulated it must go into bricks and mortar, Mr Short and others got to work to raise more funds for the crippled children’s home. His team ran him into the presidency of the ‘Liars’ Club’ by raising £6,000. He became chairman of the Crippled Children’s Home at Somerton, which opened in February, 1939. Then it could accommodate 20. Now it can take 50, has treated since it opened 400 children to fit them for a useful place in the community. The home, and a children’s club, of 70.000 members which provides generous funds for amenities for sick children, take up much of his time today.”
@Ann O. I know you’ll give credit where credit’s due, especially when the evidence is clear and in it’s proper sequence a day two before you mentioned it; Namely in that Nan Bennett nee Sparrow’s family lived at 105 Moseley St, directly opposite 90A where a Sister J.E. Thomson had apparently been living in 1947/48. It’ a pity that not a single punter here or anywhere else thought that it was relevant, for all that I’m not at all sure that it was more than pure co incidence, not being a great believer in Jessica Thomson’s place in this investigation myself.
I don’t know if this is of interest or relevance to anyone:
Derry George has two service files. This is the link to the longer one. It includes brief stints at Fisherman’s Bend and North Adelaide.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=4396257&isAv=N
There is some confusion in November 1948 as to whether his address is Glen Iris or 2/63 Bromby Street. He would be quite familiar with Bromby Street as he was a Melbourne Grammar Student (to Intermediate level – maths, physics, algebra, French) before heading to Swinburne for a similar education to Charlie (his Swinburne certificate is in the file). I think this affirms that Charlie was a bright fish – he could outperform people who had benefitted from some of the best private school education of his time.
DD George sounds like a good guy – here is the assessment at the end of his airforce application:
“Big fellow (6’1″), confident air, respectful, good average type 75%. Very suitable.”
The answers to “can rough it” “can swim” “can sleep in dormitory” are all affirmative. They cut to the chase in Australia…
As a motor mechanic I’m sure Derry George might have availed himself of the Bromby Street yard and/or Arnold Street Motor Works. The question I have was whether Charlie tinkered at the same…
@ Ann O,
My sincere apologies! I’m sure I read your post but at that time I wasn’t very knowledgeable on the intricacies of the SM case.
Thanks for your thorough response. Much appreciated and I agree there’s something going on between the neighbours at Moseley St.
I have to catch up with previous posts in order to stop the stupid questions!
My weakest skill is admittedly cryptogrpahy with these mysteries, go figure. Just a heads up. So, cryppies…What is the deal M or W’s at the top of the Rubaiyat code? My impression is they might not be an either/or symbol, but possibly *intentional* weirdos. Looking at the code one thinks well perhaps he might have changed his mind midway through and was saying the underlined MLAIOI was the correct sequence somehow, even that…how? If the MW’s were no good, why didnt he just totally black them out? It also doesnt make sense to me to be doing a cryptogram from the paper in the back of a fancy book. He could write on the newspaper itself, or lined paper.
Any other thoughts?
Nick, you indicated I thought you possessed some insight here. Why is it you think this will be essentially be uninteresting.
Pat
No apologies needed. Once a contribution here goes off the Recent Comments list it can be very difficult to locate. But if you don’t keep reading my comments, in the words of ’70s Aussie TV legend Aunty Jack (like me a man masquerading as a woman), “I’ll rip yer bloody arms off!”
Talking of Aussie TV legends, and apropos of nothing, I came across another interesting Melbourne mystery yesterday which has a link to my home city of Bristol, England. St Kilda native, Sheila Florance, best known as Lizzie Birdsworth in long running Aussie soap Prisoner (aka Prisoner: Cell Block H), apparently lost a baby daughter in Bristol during WW2. According to the Australian Dictionary of Biography however, Florance “claimed to have had a baby daughter, Bridget, blown out of her arms during a bombing raid at Temple Meads Station, Bristol, and to needing psychiatric care. No record of Bridget’s birth or death has been found, but Temple Meads Station was bombed in January 1941 and Bridget is listed on Sheila’s death certificate.” But “her eldest son Peter was never able to confirm the story.”
Her husband was definitely killed in the war and her older daughter also died in mysterious circumstances. From Wikipedia: “In March 1954, Florance’s 18-year-old daughter Susan Oyston fell from the roof of the nine-storey National Bank building in Collins Street, Melbourne, where she worked. Florance said at the time she believed the fall was accidental, saying, “She had her bags all packed to go to Cairns for a holiday, and was looking forward to it eagerly … She often went [onto the roof] in the early morning, and in her lunch-hour to enjoy the sunshine and the breeze”. She later told interviewer Sam Newman she thought it was probably suicide and that she had failed her daughter. Some time after Florance’s own death, evidence emerged that Susan Oyston may have been murdered.”
Florance seems to have had some misfortune in her life! Incidentally I, for some strange reason, saw the play ‘Prisoner: Cell Block H’ at the Bristol Hippodrome in 1989. Sheila wasn’t in it but three or four of the original cast members were, and as the Brits went mad for the TV show in the late ’80s tickets were like gold dust! A second tour in the UK in 1990 featured Fiona Spence, the original “Vinegar T*ts”
I did visit St Kilda once in 1985. Can any Melburnian tell me if those wonderful cake shops on Acland Street still exist?
John Sanders
I always give credit where it’s due. You certainly came up with the link between Doff and Dr Bennett, as I’m sure most reading this would know. However I did come up (on Aug 28 on the ‘On Carl Webb, Truth and Beauty…’ thread) with the name of Dr Bennett’s wife, the fact that she trained as a nurse, and the fact that her family lived in Moseley Street. I provided the cake and you provided the icing when you listed their address (on 29 Aug) as 105 Moseley Street. I was subsequently able to confirm this from a late ’40s copy of Sands and McDougall for Adelaide.
It probably is just a coincidence that this address was opposite the Thomsons’ house. Just as it may well be a coincidence that Doff was Dr B’s cousin. But they sure as hell are interesting coincidences. Actually I think a plot to murder Carl is extremely unlikely. More possible may be “assisted suicide”. But what really bugs me is why nobody in all these years identified Carl if there wasn’t something to hide. I have rather mischievously hinted that Adelaide “high society” might have been involved in some way in a “cover-up”. I note that Peter Bowes on his website has recently gone for the “paedophile ring” theory. For myself I think it is completely unethical to speculate that somebody is a paedophile without firm evidence. They’ll be going for poor old Ernest Short next.
Firm empirical evidence is what we need to establish a social link between Doff and Dr B, or Doff and Jessica T, or any other related links. To do that we have to find out what happened to Doff, but I’m sceptical that I can add much to that enquiry by just searching free sites on the internet from here in the UK.
I think that it’s almost inconceivable that some people didn’t know SM was Carl (if he actually was, which I don’t doubt). Police, public figures, journalists, relatives, friends, work colleagues etc etc? They had 70+ years to come up with the man’s real identity, which would only really make sense if he was a foreigner or a complete social outcast.
The most pertinent revelation in the initial Gray Hughes Colleen Fitzpatrick video that I posted a link to here a day after its release (as Steve H) was for me the statement that Carl had tried to commit suicide. I can’t for the life of me see why Doff would need to make that up in her divorce papers. After all the man had “deserted” her in 1947. But if he did kill himself why the cover-up if there was one? And if there was a cover-up why make the plaster cast and cause a lot of fuss about the ROK etc? It’s still all a big riddle.
I know Colleen isn’t everyone’s darling here, and she does get some facts wrong about the case, but this is only one amongst many for her, unlike Derek Abbott. Anyone criticising her should check how many John and Jane Does she and her colleagues have identified, and think how much relief these findings would have given to grieving relatives – see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_Doe_Project – it’s an impressive list and only covers identities established during this project, which is one amongst many she has been involved with I realise some here can become monomaniacal concerning the SM case, but there are thousands of unsolved crimes and mysteries out there.
According to Kevin Alexander D’Arcy’s death record the informant of his death was J. D’Arcy… now who is she/he? I have found a Joan D’Arcy living in Bacchus Marsh around that time along with a Doreen Elizabeth D’Arcy, both lawn tennis players (lots of news about them), daughters of Mrs. and Mr. W. D’Arcy. If they’re not related (I don’t have access to KA D’Arcy’s extended family tree), she could be Jean D’Arcy aka Dorothy…
Pat: see last paragraph – https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/09/21/kevin-alexander-darcy-bute-or-boort
@Nick,
Yep, but were they from the same family? On Kevin’s death record it doesn’t say he had siblings and I haven’t found any siblings on his family trees on FamilySearch, Geni and Wikitree. Do you have their birth records with Flora Jane McKay as mother?
“COLONIAL EXPERIENCE— WANTED ANDOBTAINED.
Melbourne, Tuesday. — Chas. W Shaw. was committed for trial to-day on a charge of obtaining £250 from Richard Webb, a recent, arrival, by false pretences. Webb advertised for colonial experience. Shaw replied and got him to go on a farm at Melton for 12 months, borrowed £250 from him, and then
turned insolvent.”
Melton is quite close to Bacchus Marsh.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236020764?searchTerm=%22Richard%20Webb%22
Pat: I’m pretty sure these are all correct, whereas many of the family trees online are both incomplete and incorrect.
All the same, I would tend to agree with the observation that these D’Arcys are a bit sparsey, archive-wise. 😁
Ann O: my own gut feeling is that our Carl Webb at behest of his family, having little else on his plate in late 1945, went in search of brother Roy who had died at the hands of the dastardly Nips along the Burmese border during the war, as did other relatives of fallen POW’s, only to be expected. At around that same time an international Court of inquiry into war crimes against POWs was being conducted by justice Sir William Webb which culminated in the obtaining of evidence used to support prosecutions of Jap overseers and camp guards. I think it quite likely that Sir Bill Webb’s namesake Carl likely stayed on in Siam, possibly up until 1948 to assist in collecting evidence that might explain his absence from the scene, also his apparent dire state of his health upon return…give it some thaught and think also about Dr. Dwyers ‘tanned legs’ observation from his evidence at the ’49 inquest.
@Misca,
Chas R.W. Shaw seems to have been a troublemaker – setting fire to a greengrocers. Was he searching for Webb?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227617181?searchTerm=%22Chas%20W.%20Shaw%22
Ann O….might not hurt to relate something personal just came to mind that may lend added weight to my suggestion that Carl went off to find the grave of his older brother Roy. My dad and his island born brother signed up for the war at it’s onset in 1939, he joining up with the AIF in Darwin and big brother as a signaller with the NZ Army in Auckland. John Edward Manoah died early during the Libya campaign on 14/10/40 and was buried in place with a marker. On arrival at Tebruk from GB two weeks later the old man did all he could to get to the grave as a family duty but to no avail due to the tactical situation. As a consequence poor old bloke blamed himself for letting the family down and never returned to see his family or land of birth. So in essence something similar might very well have gone down with our Carl, baring in mind that blood comes before self and pelf in some old fashioned families that are sadly missing today.
@john saunders,
If Carl was doing this do-gooding in 1945 why didn’t any of his family come forward to identify him? If they all missed his picture in the newspaper they surely could have seen it on TV in 1978? Perhaps there wasn’t a competition in the newspaper that day for Dorothy to buy it.
[I don’t buy the argument that a neighbour/customer/footballer didn’t say ‘I saw that man that looks ike Carl in the newspaper’ – unless they had never seen him since 1933]
There were members of the Keane, Robertson and Cass family alive. The Cass family seem to know who he was in 2022. The Robertson relatives know of him and retained documents about him. The Keane’s who gave him clothes didn’t want to get involved at the time but the children retained photos of the Webb family.
Perhaps there is a mystery Carl Webb child yet to be discovered.
@John Sanders, I suggested the same, might have contracted malaria which relapsed….but to find out for sure we probably need passenger records of ships heading to Malaya round that time
What is intriguing though is if Roy was only about a 1 older why was he recruited and not Carl ? Is there any correspondence between Roy and the rest of the family. It might shed some light on the family dynamics. So many questions ….
Someone broke into Richard Webb’s home – stole his clothes, keys and cash and a few days later returned the clothes and keys but kept the £16 cash.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/214739856?searchTerm=webb%2C%20springvale
em: Adelaide Steam Ship Co. were the biggest government shipping contractors post WW2 and their sphere of operations included FSM (Singapore), Dutch East Indies (Bataam), Thailand, Burma, Philippines, Borneo, French Indochine, Korea from 1950 but predominantly Japan where BCOF forces were based. Reason Carl baby was probably not recognised is that he opted for a beard in order to remain incognito, possibly at instance of Doff his tart who liked a bit of fuzz & fluff around 7pm. of an evening in Mebun.
@Nick,
We’re talking about Kevin’s family tree set up by Angela… so, do you have a source for Joan and Doreen being Kevin’s sisters?
@misca,
I can be wrong, but I think the D’Arcy family wasn’t originally from Bacchus Marsh…
The death railway visit doesn’t seem like a fit for me but then we don’t have much proof for anything at this stage!
This did remind me of another missing person – Phoebe Mercer of the Women’s Voluntary Service who is buried at Kanchanuburi, one of the Death Railway cemeteries. I visited the graveyard – a train ride from Bangkok, in 1989 and noticed her grave – the only one amongst so many men, and her date of death. I assumed Phoebe was an Australian nurse as she was buried amongst Australians. I wrote about the visit in my diary and remembered her name. I’d looked for her in the NAA war service records from time to time – mainly when doing other work around ten years ago, but had never found anything. Roy Webb’s story prompted me to “Google” her again after many years.
Lo and behold there was a whole story about her, from her local church in Lancashire, not far from where I was born. It gave details of her voluntary service, helping with repatriation (she sounded like a capable northern lass) and told of how she had drowned in an accident in November 1945, but there were few details, her parish couldn’t find her death certificate and didn’t know what had happened to her body! The vicar wrote on the church web page:
“While we don’t know her resting place, her name is on the WVS Roll of Honour in Westminster Abbey, on the Roll of Honour at St Anne’s School and of course on our own War Memorial, so between these three places we will remember her.”
On December 16 2012 the Vicar received a letter from an American tourist from Philadelphia, who like me, had spotted Phoebe’s grave and wanted to know more! I hope they are reassured by knowing that her grave is well tended and visited.
https://www.immanuelchurchfeniscowles.org/phoebe-mercer
I hold hope for more stories like this in this wild web(b) sleuthing world…
I note on another site, that there are reports of a few Webbs at the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation factory in Fisherman’s Bend (including an “according to records” photograph. The photograph is from the collection of Essington Lewis’ – of BHP, donated to the Library of SA). The site authors wouldn’t answer my query – via a post, about sources and I could be the person to whom a trolling rant and warning were directed! I think the location and work are a good fit but think we should be transparent about evidence versus speculation and mindful that there are contemporary family members amongst all of this.
I can’t find Kevin Alexander’s birth record on Victoria BDM… what’s the source of his date of birth? Just his death record? It’s stated ‘Melbourne’, but most birth records state the exact place instead of Melbourne.
Same for his alleged sisters Doreen Elizabeth and Joan Floris.
Maybe they lived in another state when they had the children, between 1923 and 1935 (assuming that the sisters were born after Kevin – married in 1952 and 1953)
I have found other addresses for his parents in the electoral rolls.
William D’Arcy and Flora Jane:
1939 – Alexander Av, Kooweerup, Gippsland West, Vic
1941 – Wakefield St, Hawthorn, Hawthorn, Vic
1946 – 15 Wellington St, Kerang, Swan Hill, Vic
Here’s a photo of Miss Doreen D’Arcy, a “Popular Girl” candidate at the Week-end Effort for Hospital
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/262657833?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FE%2Ftitle%2F1703%2F1952%2F03%2F08%2Fpage%2F29435474%2Farticle%2F262657833
Prompted by @ Nick’s discussion of Oak Ridge, I’m wondering if there has been any previous SM digging around what might have been happening in Woomera in 1947-8 (I’m a bit suss on that “sunburn from the previous season”).
I know the British nuclear tests began at at later date, but the prohibited area was declared in 1946.
It is difficult to gain information about the early period of Woomera with perhaps opposition to the program from anthropologist Donald Thompson and Independent Labour MP Doris Blackburn perhaps being some of the easiest open sources.
Being involved in a “prohibited area” project would be an easy way of slipping under the radar as it were…
@ Nick – you are probably on to the progeria research at Oak Ridge in the early 1970s https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006291X74800586
Re Roswell and Oak Ridge: I think belief in UFOs is the easy way out of pondering a whole city full of people who speedily and willingly located to an undemocratic, gated community in the middle of nowhere to apparently work on something they willingly knew nothing about… That is the real stuff of science fiction as fact…
Jo
Join the club. Gordon calls everyone a troll who questions the merest detail of his wild speculations. He devoted a whole page to me (without naming me) because I had the temerity to query his assertion that some of the photos of the dead SM were of a substitute corpse – he didn’t seem to take into account that six months of being pumped with embalming fluids might not have the best effect on one’s good looks. The potential Fisherman’s Bend link was one mooted well before Gordon the Moron’s (pace Manchester’s own Jilted John) post and one I had considered myself weeks ago. However if he can come up with a positive link good on him.
So you are a Lancashire lass? I’m a West Country lad myself but I did live in Manchester for several years in the ’80s around my two long trips to Australia. I did post here recently a link to a video about a parallel case to the SM mystery from the Manchester area from December 2015 which is interesting to consider – the so-called “Man on the Moor” which turned out to be one David Lytton (born Lautenberg). A cyclist found the body which was lying peacefully near a mountain path, and it was determined that he died from strychnine poisoning. Suicide was suspected but the man couldn’t be identified. It was established that he had been living in Pakistan and from CCTV footage determined that he had travelled by train from London to Manchester. Local people had spoken to him the day before his body was found.
The body was identified more than a year after its discovery but several mysteries still remain. Lytton had flown to London from Pakistan a day before travelling to Manchester, meeting a friend and booking five nights in a hotel in Ealing. Apparently he had been in a panic to leave Pakistan as his visa was due to expire. From BBC News 14 March 2017: “He was met at the airport by a friend, who he had known for some 35 years. They ate a meal before the friend dropped David off at the Travelodge in Ealing. “His friend indicated that since David had not been in the UK for some time, he wanted to spend some time – weeks or months travelling around and seeing the sights,” says DS [John] Coleman. Although he booked into the hotel for five nights, David only stayed one. And in keeping with the mysterious nature of this story, police have been unable to locate the 18kg suitcase that he brought with him from Pakistan.”
He had no known links to Saddleworth Moor (site incidentally of the Moors Murders). Lytton was described as a “loner” but he did have friends and even a girlfriend, Maureen Toogood. Also from the BBC News article: ” Maureen and David had a pregnancy which ended in miscarriage. She says he changed greatly after that, he became withdrawn and quiet. Unbeknown to Maureen, David put his house up for sale in 2005. It sold on 4 October 2006, and he left for Pakistan on 6 October – not California as Maureen had mysteriously been told.” He had also been in a feud with his family.
The case had garnered quite a bit of publicity in the UK but no-one could identify the body from the CCTV footage or police drawing. His brother who lived in London described himself as a “newsaholic” but hadn’t seen the coverage. “Speaking after the inquest Mr Lytton’s brother Jeremy Lawton, 64, said he had been ‘staggered’ when police contacted him to say they had been trying to identify him for a year. Despite the case making international headlines, self-confessed ‘newsaholic’ Mr Lawton said he had not seen any coverage.”* His friend and girlfriend didn’t identify him either!
The brother also said that he didn’t believe Lytton committed suicide but may have been taking strychnine recreationally – apparently athletes used to take it in small doses because of its “convulsant” effects, which could also produce epileptic fits! “Mr Lawton said his brother left the family home after a ‘big argument’ and never came back, keeping everyone ‘at arms’ length’. But he insisted that Mr Lytton was not suicidal, adding: “He would not have come back all the way from Pakistan, got on a plane, paid for it, got off at Heathrow, paid for a hotel for five nights, bought a return ticket to Manchester to come and take his own life.””*
See: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38757699 and https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/09/saddleworth-moor-mystery-man-changed-name-david-lytton-lautenberg and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-39255114
*Both quotes from Jeremy Lawton from Manchester Evening News, 15 March 2017.
John Sanders
The link to Siam sounds interesting but I’m not sure “gut feelings” will lead us anywhere. Still, keep up up the search for evidence! No need to be coy about relating something personal – in my view it makes comments all the more interesting although I don’t think everybody here would agree given the deafening silences that have met my own efforts in that direction.
My old man was in the RAF out in India (Kohima amongst other places) although he never really told me anything about it. That was after narrowly surviving a bombing raid on the aircraft works at Filton, near Bristol, when the door of the air raid shelter blew out and one person was killed. The old woman was in the WAAF too under Bomber Harris (not literally). Talking about the war reminds me that when I briefly met (the now) King Charles III circa 1973 he said that the quadrangle of our school made him think of “bloody Colditz”. This from a guy who went to the notorious Gordonstoun!
To finish maybe I can take the liberty of quoting the great Pilchard himself:
“While [John-Christopher] Spender sees ‘uncertainty’ as a ‘knowledge deficiency’, I think the Romantic poet John Keats came closest to expressing its full potential when he praised Shakespeare’s ability to remain in “uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason”. As modern writers, our language is so deeply immersed within a positivistic tradition that it can initially be hard to see Keats’ “negative capability” for “being in uncertainty” as useful. However, I argue that it is ‘Keatsian uncertainties’ in which our lives are primarily immersed, and which we ‘irritably reach after’ new certainties to resolve – that uncertainties herald new certainties, and in turn the combination of certainties lead to yet further uncertainties.” So maybe with SM we will have to be content with remaining in uncertainty and mystery.
Whilst on the subject of Romantic poetry did you see my brilliant riposte yesterday – with a sly reference to Norman Gunston – to your assertion that Poe was a “suicidal yankee nutter” on the ‘Carl Webb, “Electrical Fitter” and “Instrument Maker” …’ thread?
@ Ann O
Poor Mr Lytton! I didn’t know of this one as I’ve been in Australia for many years. now. I was morbidly fascinated by another sad case in the UK, that of Joyce Vincent, the subject of Carol Morley’s film: “Dreams of a Life”, she was dead in her flat for five years, with the TV on, before anyone realised that she had died.
I think I remember you mentioning Joy Division in a previous post? I saw them play once when I was a teenager, on a school night!
Back to St Kilda: I can report that many of those Acland Street cake shops are still trading! Though the Sherazade Cafe has gone! If you were around St Kilda in the 80s I’m wondering if you ever went to the Razor Club, on Queens Road. It was one of Melbourne’s best alternative clubs – run out of the old clubrooms of the Light Car Club of Australia, which has a Somerton Man connection. through Derry George, one of its most active early members! (It was also very close to the Monterrey Appartments, also on Queens Road – Australia’s Bletchley Park outpost).
Prisoner was rebooted as the TV series Wentworth – some of my family were involved in the production (we even had some of the bottles of vinegar, given out at a wrap party!). A friend’s mum, Betty, played Judy Bryant in the original, she died last year. ! I didn’t know the story of Lizzy, Sheila Florance’s missing baby!!
I got involved in all of this SM stuff because I knew some of the history of the Bromby Street area – Airlie, Monterrey, the Women’s Signal Training Camp etc, so my ears pricked up when Charlie turned up in the neighbourhood! I’ve consequently learned a lot more!… It can also be a bit of a worm hole!
Jo<
'Woomera Rocket Range' produces the earliest info on Woomera:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22woomera%20rocket%20range%22&l-decade=194
Ann O: nearly twenty years on from writing that, I’m still immersed in as many Keatsian uncertainties as ever (if not more). 😉
@ David Morgan
There are a stack of NAA files relating to Woomera, going back to 1946, very few of them digitised. I’m going to resist the wormhole! I’ll go for a speculative visit to the Woomera Village & museums if ever I’m in SA! They’re apparently quiet but fascinating. Keansian uncertainties, it’s the road we tread…
I realised that the 100 years rule on Vic BMD would not show the D’Arcy trio as soon as I posted about the lack on info on them.
Anyway, the informant of the death of Kevin was not his sister Joan, as she was a Marett in 1991. Nor any of her or Doreen’s offspring as they would not be named D’Arcy. So maybe J. D’Arcy was the ‘valuer’ James Allen, unless there are more D’Arcys not showing up on the records, or maybe it was Jean aka Dorothy.
She and Kevin could have been ‘married’ in the nonconformist hippie way. If they had been living in the middle of nowhere and were childless they wouldn’t need to be restricted by laws. That would also explain his ‘unclaimed moneys’ between 1978-1986.
GEELONG AND DISTRICT.
‘William D’Arcy, a Customs clerk, for whose arrest a warrant has been issued in August, gave himself up at the police station. Later, in the City Court, D’Arcy was charged with having on August 23 embezzled £208 12/7 from the Commonwealth of Australia. He was remanded to appear at the City Court, on December 7. Bail was allowed in a bond of £100, and a surety of £100.
The Argus / 30 Nov 1926 / Page 17 / Country News
Where has the mystery child Brenda Therese Lesley Webb appeared from in genealogy. The child of Roy Webb born after his death or the child of just his wife with another mystery man?
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/descendancy/GFFV-MK5
Two options – a mistake – or a child of another Webb/other.
It could be Carl was keeping Ruby company I suppose in 1945/46.
3, Kembla St, Hawthorn today is a $8.5 million property!
https://www.domain.com.au/property-profile/3-kembla-street-hawthorn-vic-3122
Pat –
There is a 1968 electoral roll that lists a James Alan D’Arcy on the same street (Grant Street) as Flora and William. He is a “valuer”. He shows up later in other rolls living with a Kaye Francis D’Arcy living in Doncaster West, Diamond Valley. I assumed he was a son/close relative and I agree with you that he was most probably the informant.
@misca,
Thanks! Does it state his age? Would he still be alive in 1991?
misca: Trove has a James Alan D’Arcy listed as a “Clerk, Third Division” working for Social Services in June 1955 (the James Alan D’Arcy in the electoral rolls is a “p[ublic] serv[ant]”), so I’m guessing they’re one and the same. So I expect he can’t have been born later than 1938 or so (but he seems pretty elusive otherwise, archivally).
Jo
Yes, I remember the sad case of Joyce Vincent. Carol Morley is, as you probably know, the brother of Paul Morley, who was the first music journalist to write about Joy Division. I did mention them a while back as one John Sanders (not him) contacted me on Facebook as he was at the gig I attended when they supported The Cure in Canterbury in June ’79. Where did you see Joy Division?
Manchester had some great clubs/venues when I was there in the ’80s including the Hacienda – used to see some famous faces in the place and Bernard from New Order served me a pint a couple of times! I mentioned somewhere here that I saw Victoria’s own Nick Cave with the Bad Seeds there supported by Sonic Youth, amongst others.
I didn’t spend long enough in Melbourne (maybe two weeks) to get into the music scene or the clubs, although I did hang out with a friend there who I initially met in Broome, WA three years earlier. Unfortunately he had a habit of leading me astray! Glad to know the cake shops are still there on Acland Street. I also made brief visits to South Yarra and Footscray so at least am slightly acquainted with some of the settings of this mystery. I even visited Glenelg and walked down the Esplanade to Somerton Beach but didn’t know about SM at the time (1985).
I remember Judy Bryant in Prisoner – she was a bit daft to deliberately get herself banged up to be with that awful Sharon Gilmour. There was a huge cult around the show in the UK in the late ’80s – we didn’t get it when it was originally shown in Oz. I really got hooked on it for a year or so back then and have recently watched a few episodes on YouTube which is how I got to read about Sheila Florance. Patsy King (Erica) and Elspeth Ballantyne (Meg) were in the stage version I saw. Betty Bobbit also came to the UK at the behest of the PCBH fan club, run by two young women from Derby. Did those bottles of vinegar come with teats attached?
You have a big advantage in the SM case being in situ and knowing the history of the Melbourne area. I got excited about the possible Airlie connection a while back with its link to Z Special Unit but I don’t think that will lead anywhere, although Russell Webb’s illegitimate son may have been with Z Spec. From Wikipedia: “At the suggestion of General Thomas Blamey special forces were trained in Australia to infiltrate enemy-controlled territory in the South Pacific using similar methods to those employed by the French Resistance. These forces were controlled by a small team called Z Special Unit headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Egerton Mott. Mott decided to set up his control team in Airlie. A recent book described their operations in the following terms. “It was from within Airlie’s cold stone walls that Mott’s team would plan and monitor missions sent into enemy territory north of Australia. Mott’s team of six officers and three administrative staff included some of the best and brightest.””
I still believe however that it is possible that Carl and/or Doff were involved in top secret work in the war and although I never like to impugn anyone without due cause maybe there was some sort of betrayal involved – it happens. They both seem to have “gone to ground” anyway and I still don’t understand why in all these years SM wasn’t identified until now unless he was persona non grata to all who knew him.
We are all involved in Keatsian uncertainties I am sure. Perhaps Carl – as a fellow “Goth” – would have appreciated the “negative capability” in these lines from Keats’ ‘Ode on Melancholy’ – I’ll bet that Pilchard does:
“Make not your rosary of yew-berries,
Nor let the beetle, nor the death-moth be
Your mournful Psyche, nor the downy owl
A partner in your sorrow’s mysteries;
For shade to shade will come too drowsily,
And drown the wakeful anguish of the soul.
But when the melancholy fit shall fall
Sudden from heaven like a weeping cloud,
That fosters the droop-headed flowers all,
And hides the green hill in an April shroud;
Then glut thy sorrow on a morning rose,
Or on the rainbow of the salt sand-wave,
Or on the wealth of globed peonies…”
Pat –
Unfortunately, the electoral rolls do not give an age. I think listings start for people when they are about 20 years old so sometimes, that allows you to guess (when they first appear).
This particular D’Arcy branch is very elusive as hardly any of them have digitized births or deaths and only rarely pop up on find a grave. I have wondered in early comments, if they might be buried in a private family plot or on what was their own land somewhere,.
Has anyone else encountered a William MacKay D’Arcy? He has an NAA file that has been digitized but my computer is giving me problems and I can’t seem to look through all the pages. He seems interesting because of the McKay middle name…
Ann O: the Thai/ Burma railway saga was unique when it comes to the anals of crimes against humanity at such scale. Those thousands who perished were not given dignified funerary rites in accordance with their beliefs, merely buried where they dropped to prevent spread of disease. Tragically Carls brother Roy and many 29th Btn. POW mates fitted into this category. Had you been in his shoes and given the opportunity at war’s end to do so, would you have had any hesitation making an effort to locate your sibling’s remains, that he might be given burial rites in accordance with his beliefs and to give the ‘O’ family a degree of solace. I’m sure you would as would our Carl had he the means, possibly even staying on with Bill Webb’s investigators to insure that those responsible paid for their crimes.
@misca,
Yes, that William MacKay D’Arcy caught my attention. I have found him living in 29 Liddiard St, Hawthorn in 1946 as a postman.
Regarding John Alan (so it’s not Allen), some of the electoral rolls I have access to via MyHeritage shows people’s age, but unfortunately I haven’t found him yet.
Kevin has been buried (or cremated) at Maddingley Cemetery, Bacchus Marsh.
@misca,
I can read his NAA file. What do you want to know? The interesting thing so far is that William D’Arcy is the name of his father, and his address, Boort, has been corrected to something I can’t read, but it looks like ‘State Rivers … Waters…Supply ? Kerang’ but then it says 15, Wellington St, Kerang.
He was a postal employee (postman, on the electoral rolls), born on 9 Nov 1924, one year older than Kevin Alexander…
Ooops, one year younger than Kevin
James Leonard D’Arcy V15002, next of kin: Dorothy Jean D’Arcy, still reading, but couldn’t resist!
DARCY James Royal : Service Number – VX91456 : Date of Birth – 07 August 1918 : Place of Birth – SOUTH MELBOURNE, VIC
Next of kin: W. D’Arcy
Access status: not yet examined
Nick Pelling: if it’s not to much trouble could you reveal your Kevin D’arcy source in order to get this game back on course sans the guessing game; while you’re at it perhaps you might also consider posting the Webb full monty marriage certificate so Keane punters might find something they can extrapolate from and avoid all the confusion thereby….Would you per chance happen to know what became of Roy Webb’s widow Ruby Ruby after his passing in ’43. Seems that she may have died in Perth W.A. in her late 40s, if that’s indeed Roy’s Ruby and not yet another imposter to contend with.
@John Sanders,
The marriage certificate, as well as Kevin’s death record have been uploaded on FamilySearch by Angela (if I’m not mistaken). Just search Carl Webb’s family tree.
@John Sanders
Emily Ruby Stella Gavey was born in 1906, m. Roy Webb in 1933 and died in 1958 as Ruby Stella Webb. Plenty of records.
The Express, Melton (Vic. 1943 – 1954) Sat 19 Jun 1948
Page 1
PERSONAL
After 40 years with the State
Rivers and Water Supply Commission,
Mr. W. Murcott, rate
collector at Bacchus Marsh, retires
this weekend. Mr. Murcott
has been in Bacchus Marsh
since 1913, with the exception of
the period he served in World
War I. His successor is Mr. W.
D’Arcy, from Kerang.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/254866671?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FE%2Ftitle%2F1502%2F1948%2F06%2F19%2Fpage%2F28272949%2Farticle%2F254866671
Pat: I just checked this, but didn’t see anything new re Kevin D’Arcy on familysearch?
John Sanders
I have no doubt about the horrors of the Death Railway, but unique I don’t think so. To be living in Eastern Europe from ’39-’45, or to be a member of any one of those groups the Nazis wanted rid of almost anywhere in Europe, or to be Chinese in China during the Japanese occupation – think Unit 731 or the Rape of Nanjing/Nanking – wouldn’t exactly be my idea of a carefree life.
It wouldn’t be sensible to extrapolate anyone’s motivations or fine feelings based on the actions or sentiments of the ‘O’ family. For me, from the moment you die you are a corpse, a lump of meat. Cynical maybe, but we Brits are probably the least religious nation on earth and although many of us retain some superstitious regard to the relics of our lost loved ones I am not one of them – not to say that I don’t have my fond memories. My parents weren’t quite as irreverent maybe but not once did the old woman perform any little ceremony of remembrance or pilgrimage to the crematorium after the old fellow popped his clogs. I don’t have siblings, children, or any romantic partners past or present and I’ve never been happier! Sorry.
I’m not going to let the Poe thing go without a struggle. On 27 September David Morgan wrote than Carl may have been using the pseudonyms “Baudelaire” and/or “Rimbaud” to enter newspaper competitions. I replied to him stating that on 10 August I commented: “In the divorce papers apparently Doff said that Webb liked “death poetry”. In other words he was a proto-Goth. Presumably a fan of Poe (‘The Gold-Bug’ is all about a cryptogram, and he (probably) wrote a couple of ciphers under the pseudonym W B Tyler), Baudelaire, Rimbaud etc.” Mr Morgan is one of those persons who never replies to my contributions, but you at least do, and you also replied to Mr Morgan, mentioning the Edgar Allan Poe appreciation clubs. Any idea where he got his info about the pseudonym business, or if not can you say anything more about those EA Poe clubs?
I’m sure we’ve all had “A Season in Hell” or two:
“I have just swallowed a terrific mouthful of poison. – Blessed, blessed, blessed the advice I was given! – My guts are on fire. The power of the poison twists my arms and legs, cripples me, drives me to the ground. I die of thirst, I suffocate, I cannot cry. This is Hell, eternal torment! See how the flames rise! I burn as I ought to. Go on, Devil!
I once came close to a conversion to the good and to felicity, salvation. How can I describe my vision, the air of Hell is too thick for hymns! There were millions of delightful creatures in smooth spiritual harmony, strength and peace, noble ambitions, I don’t know what all?
Noble ambitions!
But I am still alive! – Suppose damnation is eternal! A man who wants to mutilate himself is certainly damned, isn’t he? I believe I am in Hell, therefore I am.”
Arthur Rimbaud, 1873.
@Nick,
The only ‘new’ thing about him is the death record document. I was just telling JS where he can find Carl & Dorothy marriage certificate.
Pat: the familysearch page claims that Dorothy Robertson died in 2003 in Buderim, Queensland. Errrm… except that that particular Dorothy Robertson was interred with Bill, her husband of 60 years. So I’m perhaps not as impressed with that bit of sleuthing as I might be, sorry. 🙁
@Nick, there are many Carl Webb trees there. You’re looking at the wrong one. Search for Angela’s.
@Ann O,
Sorry. I may have associated your input about W.B. Tyler with JS. I did follow up researching Rimbaud and Baudelaire etc. I would like your link to WB. Tyler. I didn’t find that.
Dorothy seems to be the literary person from the relationship (from her newspaper competition entry). I can see Carl reading Scientific American. She may have introduced Carl to death poetry when his family were dying around him. I suspect he had guilt about Roy. But it may not be about the war. It could be that he had an education while Roy slogged away driving the bread delivery truck and that if he’d had an education he would have been like him in a reserved occupation and alive. Survivors guilt.
I also think that he was taking down morse code on the Somerton beach from a flashing light and that probably Dorothy had the same more code training as Carl. But post-war they would be surplus to requirements as they dismantled Kellow House.
Also, he could also have imagined the morse code if he was suffering in his final moments and taken down the message from the stars. He might have transcribed at 20 wpm in morse code so less than a minute for the Somerton Man code. Though I suspect he watched it repeat at least 3 times accounting for the corrections.
Perhaps the young person who stole Carl’s wallet and watch tossed the poetry book into the chemist’s car. It may have even been part of an attempt to break in and push the window down.
@Nick,
You will see that this particular information was put there by HeatherGallo, not AngelaH5018. As far as I know Angela’s contributions are very accurate and based on actual records.
Ann O: yes I could have chosen a better terminology than unique, uncouth may have been more appropriate upon reflection. Hope I haven’t set you off on a mission of redemption like Audie Murphy does in his ‘To Hell and Back’ auto bio, whereupon he comes to terms with his his self doubts by slaughtering a thousand Krauts single handedly and crediting it all to his love of Jesus H. Christ…I was never much into Edgar Alan Poe so steared clear of the infernal appreciation clubs that sprang up after the sot de perched after consuming Chesapeak Bay soft shell crabs in Baltimore on his own way to Hell West & Crooked in 1840 something. I’m certain such institutions were quite common in Mebun and other cities in the antipodes around Carl Webb’s time whenever that was, so the correct Trove input should help you in your quest for the desired information.
Clive: seems that in young nurse Nan (Nadine) Sparrow of 105 Moseley St. we now have an alternate to fake Sister Thomson for a candidate in the mysterious male who came caller looking for an unamed nurse aquaintance in the vicinity of 90A Moseley directly opposite. Could he have been Carl Webb, estranged husband of Dorothy whose cousin Dr. John Bennett was then an RAH colleague of said Nan and who got the sign off from Dr. John whilst lying dead in an ambulance outside the hospital on 1/12/48.
David Morgan
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough that it was Poe and not Carl who used the pseudonym WB Tyler. Although I am a “fan” of Poe and all things “Goth Lit” I don’t know too much about ciphers etc, so picked up my refs to WB Tyler from quick internet searches (eg Wikipedia – “Two ciphers he [Poe] published in 1841 under the name “W. B. Tyler” were not solved until 1992 and 2000 respectively. One was a quote from Joseph Addison’s play Cato; the other is probably based on a poem by Hester Thrale.” My old man, who was in the RAF in India, certainly learned morse code so perhaps as a dutiful son I should have shown more interest in codes.
For W B Tyler See: https://web.archive.org/web/20200817183521/https://www.tulsaworld.com/archive/poe-s-puzzle-decoded-but-meaning-is-mystery/article_26eed84f-4bac-5268-9186-8246d6053280.html and
https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/edgar-allan-poe-cipher-challenge#:~:text=After%20the%20content%20was%20finished%2C%20Poe%20published%20two,wrote%20them.%20For%20decades%2C%20the%20ciphers%20remained%20unsolved.
Of course Poe’s own death is a mystery in itself – even BuzzFeed Unsolved have a video about it on YouTube. As I said in my comment directed to Mr Sanders I had speculated about Baudelaire and Rimbaud, as well as Poe, around seven weeks ago so would be interested to know your source for Carl’s potential use of said pseudonyms in newspaper puzzles. I (as Steve H) also commented on his bridge puzzle solving abilities in the very same post of 10 August.
I have noticed that comments on this site can easily get lost if not responded to quickly so have decided to shout more loudly if I discover something interesting – nothing personal!
It is possible that Carl was in some sort of psychotic episode at the time of his decease but if so I doubt we’ll find out much to prove that assertion unless some records turn up from a stay in a psychiatric hospital or some such.
This article has Nadine Sparrow of Glenelg as the fiancee of Dr John Bennett:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130798836?searchTerm=%22nadine%20sparrow%22
Nick
Did anyone follow up on Sonya’s suggestion of 3 August of the possibility that Dorothy Jean King was our Doff? Her parents on the NSW BDM are listed as John and Alice Catherine – she died in 1991. Not sure about the Catherine though.
milongal noted on 1 August that a Dorothy June Robertson married an Edwin William King in 1952 according to Victoria BDM.
Was the little bird who whispered in your ear re Mr D’Arcy a (quite big) lyrebird? If not a lyre did Doff see Kev emerging from a lake in a soaking wet shirt? I can picture it now. “I did not expect to see you, sir!” It’s all a bit mysterious though. Maybe a little hard to swallow, perhaps you said it for a lark, or you had a funny tern. or you think we are all gulls and expect us to parrot your little fib.
I did post this ref to John Coomber (sic) Robertson in Darwin a few weeks back:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22432034?searchTerm=%22john%20robertson%22%20darwin
Evidence of John Comber at Balwyn with some more birds in 1938:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11172027?searchTerm=%22john%20comber%20robertson%22%20balwyn
I expect this is all old hat but I quail at the thought of going through a thousand or so comments to check so will have to duck that responsibility, although I did do a swift search. I know, I’m chicken, but please don’t rail or grouse or snipe or call me a twite or a booby.
Ann O: enough of yer huffin’ and puffin’. :-p
@pat @john sanders did Ruby Webb have children? listed as her father’s grandchildren are her brother Ivor’s children with first wife and a Beverley and Brenda. Whose children are they?
@ Misca
Are you able to tell from the electoral rolls whether Kaye Frances D’Arcy is likely to be James Alan D’Arcy’s wife or daughter? It looks as though she is still active as a massage therapist, but now in a different area of Melbourne… I’m thinking probably daughter…
@ em,
According to Ruby’s death certificate Brenda is her daughter. Angela has uploaded it on Carl’s family tree on FamilySearch.
Nick
You must be avian a larf. Since you won’t answer any questions one has to assume the whole D’Arcy thing is a canard (ho ho). I knew you’d try to skua me and treat me like a loon – huffin’ and puffin’ indeed – but it’s you who might have to eat crow.
ps I know from your tweets (ho ho) that you like “sadistic” puns.
“I look up to the little bird
That glides across the sky
He sings the clearest melody
It makes me want to cry
It makes me want to sit right down
and cry cry cry”
Annie Lennox, 1993
Ann O: duck a question? As if I’d do such a thing. 😁
@John Saunders
I wanted to explore your post which contains so many facts.
The family tree part I took on trust as I did find a Robertson linked. Someone else can show how Sparrow/Bennett in 1950 ‘became’ related to deceased Carl via Dorothy. So Carl could have been visiting his future relatives.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B89fCn57a6yemlNpEQ9i7QXdLioP037i/view?usp=sharing
Wow. Tricky stuff to sort through with Ruby’s brother John Ivor Gavey. He was married to Jennie Lesueur from 1925 to 1949. She then married Edward John Williams in 1949.
Edward John Williams was married to Rachel Winifred Gledhill from 1932 to 1949. Rachel then married John Ivor Gavey!
They switched husbands.
Haven’t had a chance to sort it out yet.
David Morgan
As JS said to me in an above comment “give credit where credit’s due” it behoves me to quote from my post of 28 August on the ‘On Carl Webb, Truth and Beauty’ thread:
“You [JS] should have done some more digging on Dr John Barkly Bennett and then you would have found some VERY interesting details.
John married Nan (Nadine) Sparrow, well known in Adelaide social circles and daughter of solicitor and “jolly joker” Cyril Sparrow and his wife Irene, formerly Gross.
Two intriguing facts about Nan.
1) She trained as a nurse at Royal Adelaide Hospital.
2) Before marriage she lived with her folks in – drumroll please – Moseley Street, Glenelg. She was certainly living there when poor Carl met his end.”
JS thought that Bennett may have married a Nurse McIntyre until I put him right but a day after my post he then found out that the Sparrows lived at 105 Moseley Street, opposite Jo & Prosper. Of course he had also previously found the link between Dr Bennett and Doff. See our comments on this issue on the Truth and Beauty thread from JS’ comment on 25 August at 10.59 pm to his final contribution on 29 August as we discussed this issue at some length.
I had linked the article about Nan Sparrow that you also linked in a comment on this thread on 26 September as a reply to Pat, also stressing the connection between Nan and the Dunstans, a very influential family in Adelaide (think future SA premier Don Dunstan whose Aunt Ada, of Moseley Street, was a former Lady Mayoress) and also pointing out that a subsequent Mayor, who died 17 days after taking office in 1949, was very prominent in founding the Crippled Children’s Home. Conspiracy theorists out there take note!
Pat –
I can see the death certificate Angela loaded but it makes no mention of a Brenda.
@ Misca, lol, they were a colourful bunch. @Pat so Brenda born in 1946 was not Roys child. i am assuming Beverley wasn’t either….
@misca,
https://i.imgur.com/Vb3bjDI.png
Hopefully the link will work!
Nick
Toucan play at that game. Don’t be a silly goose or a lazy bustard.
Given your penchant for little birds why haven’t you picked up on my and Colonel Sanders’ hints about the Sparrows?
Maybe K. D’Arcy was a fellow Pharmacy student?
https://i.imgur.com/m182fCi.png
Ann O: You’ve got a bit to learn about methodology in what I chose to share with punters regarding a potential linking twixt Dorothy Webb and her cousin Dr. John Bennett of which few caught onto. It could be that our arbitrator may have thought likewise and therefore saw no need to post my follow-up on the Sparrow family’s fledgling Nan, the RAH nurse connection being deemed outside the SM sphere of relevance. I had researched the Sparrows before you found them somewhere in Moseley Street, as did Dr. Dwyer & James Cowan. I also knew that Cyril Sparrow missed out on the WW1 sharp end due to ongoing law school committments which also compromised an associate Ken Kirkman who missed out due to his low tooth count, that worthy going on to become chief of WW2 Commowealth Security and Special Branch in S.A. True I wasn’t aware of the Sparrow/Dunstan high society connections, there being no point going the extra yard simply because it wasn’t (still isn’t) on my brief which was limited to the plottings and brewings in assisting Carl with his Tamam Shud death wish.
Pat –
Thanks for sharing that. I’m not sure why I can’t access it. I have seen other posts Angela has made on the Carl Charles Webb tree. Is there more than one family tree that she posts on? Is there any way you can post the direct link to the overall tree?
So…Where does Beverly fit in if she’s not on this death certificate?
I have had to take a break from the Gavey”s. It’s nuts in there. They basically seem to have swapped out families!
@ misca,
Ruby:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/memories/GFMJ-565
Carl: (this is the link for the changelog; it’s not just Angela’s collaborating)
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/changelog/LR91-P4B
Some more info on Jessica Harkness/Thomson, and a tentative link to Doff.
Apologies if all this has been posted before.
Jessica Thomson’s best friend growing up in Mentone, according to the ‘Missing Pieces’ documentary, was Margaret Langley. Langley’s mother Vera Lucy Savige was, according to ‘Redacted’ on Bigfooty (27 August 2022) the “Rationalist Commune Matriarch in Mentone.” and a member of the Communist Party.
For more on the Langleys at the Rationalist Society commune see;
http://www.members.optushome.com.au/scai4/index
I found this intriguing given that Colleen F said on the Mind Over Murder podcast (part two) that Doff ended up on a “hippie” or “LGBTQ” colony. Hmmm. What if Jessica and Doff met at the Mentone commune?
Margaret Langley ended up in SA. According to ‘Redacted’: “Margaret Langley was later, the principal of Marbury school in Aldgate South Australia [a “co-educational, non-sectarian, independent, non-competitive, non-authoritarian school” according to Wikipedia] with her then husband Dr Henry Edhouse founding it. Jessica Harkness kept in contact with the Langley / Edhouse family according to the interviews with Margaret’s son, Tim Edhouse, Margaret’s daughters Sara Briggs and, Kirsty Dodd, in the documentary Missing Pieces. ” Her mother Vera also moved to Adelaide, dying there in 1978.
‘Redacted’ also sees a possible link between Jessica and prominent Communist Party member Bernie Taft – through rather convoluted family links to “Dr Elef Jorgensen (brother of Justus Jorgensen, founder of the artist colony Montsalvat near Eltham)” who “sired two daughters out of wedlock, with Margaret Langley. Sara and Kirsty.” For a mention of Taft, the Marx School in Melbourne, and the CPA in WW2 see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/134459969?searchTerm=melbourne%20%22bernard%20taft%22
In the ‘Missing Pieces’ doc, Jessica’s sister Nelle McLeish said Jessica moved to Adelaide with Prosper after a “family argument.” Other points of note from this film, which I rewatched today (it’s on dailymotion) are:
1) Paul Lawson said that the police suddenly told him to stop his work as they needed to bury the body in a rush.
2) Neil Day (one of the jockeys who found the body) said that there were other people on the beach who were never interviewed by police including someone “wearing an overcoat” (Carl’s?) walking up the beach towards Glenelg,
3) Jessica’s friends stressed that she always claimed that Robin wasn’t Prosper’s son. Odd given the latest DNA evidence, but perhaps she had “a bit on the side” and didn’t know who to blame. Apparently Prosper met her in Sydney when he stopped her committing suicide by jumping off some rocks.
4) Prosper and Jessica’s marriage wasn’t very physically passionate. Seeing the photos of them side by side it’s not surprising as Prosper was twice Jessica’s size. Prosper was always a dodgy “dealer” eventually hanging around car boot sales.
5) Jessica was tutored by famous historian and pom basher Manning Clark whose father was a vicar in Mentone for a while from 1934. She supposedly “had a crush” on him.
If Doff had moved to Adelaide temporarily perhaps it was her who put the flowers on SM’s grave. Unless that story is another canard! Prof Abbott thinks she was only in Bute for a short while before moving to NSW and maybe her colony. Perhaps she picked up some free-thinking, socialistic and rationalist ideas when she was growing up through social contact with Jessica Harkness’ circle of friends. it’s a long shot!
@misca,
Sorry, I forgot to answer your question. It seems there’s no overall tree, FamilySearch works with ‘ID’s, you have to click on the person’s links to be redirected to other info on them and their ancestors. I just click the little star to follow that person and I get notifications when something has been changed or new info has been added.
Can you post more info on these crazy Gavey family? I don’t know anything about Beverly yet…
@ em,
It seems that Brenda wasn’t Roy’s biological daughter, BUT… I have found one family tree (just the basics, because it’s on Ancestry and I don’t have access to the full tree) that says she was born in 1943, not 1946. Anyway, it’s unlikely that she was his daughter, maybe Ruby adopted her.
John Sanders
You little Aussie bleeder. Put your money where your mouth is man. I have yet to see any evidence that you ever mentioned the Sparrows before me and you definitely thought Bennett was married to Nurse McIntyre, despite slyly adding the question mark. Don’t put up smokescreens and pretend you suddenly saw fit to be discreet. Discretion never stopped you with your absurd speculations about the Beaumont children. I doubt if Pilchard would have redacted your mentions of the Sparrows given the totally scurrilous remarks you and many others here have made about all and sundry.
“Music Successes, 1954. At the recent Melbourne Conservatorium of Music examinations. the following pupils from the Convent of Mercy, Mansfield, and the results speak forthemselves.”
“Grade I, Piano.-Margaret lllen Stewart (credit), Kathleen Mary Costain (credit),
Brenda June Webb (credit), Shirley Wyllie (pass).”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65500980?searchTerm=%22Brenda%20Webb%22
@ Ann O
Isn’t it a truth universally acknowledged that one should take care with mixing Bennetts and D’Arcys within the same thread?
Joy Division – the Warehouse, Preston, it’s still running, though I haven’t been there for a few decades!
I don’t think we will ever find the “truth” in all of this, I have a few “theories” that won’t lead anywhere and have no leads, in the meantime I have become fascinated by some of the social history sidelines… fast cars, signals intelligence, the social history of Springvale, twentieth century engineering in Australia, the war and cold war periods as experienced down under! We had our own antipodean versions of Bletchley Park and Oak Ridge but smaller and quirkier…ie an art deco residential apartment block and a village in the middle of the desert (which involved moving a group of people who’d never had contact with Europeans from their land).
“SITUATION VACANT
TRAINEES wanted to learn manicuring and pedicuring for shop opening on
Glenhuntly Rd. Must be well presented and have outgoing personality. Please ring BRENDAWEBB at the NAIL AFFAIR 690 7352.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/261565233?searchTerm=%22Brenda%20Webb%22
Ann O,
I doubt local Glenelg politics played a part in Carl’s death. He may have decided to carry out one last good deed with a donation to the Children’s Home – who knows?
He was obviously ill with his multiple organ failures. He may have wanted to find a chemist, doctor or nurse for medication. Perhaps the chemist needed a prescription from a doctor to give him what he wanted.
Perhaps he had been banging doors to find Sparrow – but she wasn’t there then he tried Thomson after being told she was also a nurse – conjecture, again who knows.
Since the door banging would have been days before his death he may have found a willing nurse/chemist to give him drugs. Alternatively, he may have even found someone willing to help with assisted dying for cash.
For the conspiracy theorists – I notice people in the plot – Sparrow, Thomson could be signalling with lost property adverts. I was reading about one woman code breaker who worked at Bletchley Park and she was tasked with searching through classified adverts for coded spy messages – like lost property messages.
But I still think there is more to the Carl Webb plot.
I want to know why Keane needed to train in Canada. How many pilots trained in Canada? What planes did they have that they didn’t have in England/Ireland and what would be the point of learning on the wrong aircraft? His imprisonment for petrol theft seems to be extreme, why not a fine? He then needed to retrain again.
@ Pat
I think the pharmacy student was Michael Kelvin Darcy of 187 Ryrie Street, Geelong, who was first registered as a pharmacist in 1953.
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/view.cgi?year=1975&class=general&page_num=1085&state=V&classNum=G34&searchCode=6540584
@ David Morgan – many people trained in Canada, as part of the British Commonwealth Air Training Scheme- my grandfather went there from Bamber Bridge, in Lancashire.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Commonwealth_Air_Training_Plan
I’ve always had a hunch that Charlie and or Dorothy may have had low level signals intelligence roles, mainly on the basis of their address, low profile and ability to enter a sealed room and simply disappear, the marriage date & address, Charlie’s history with puzzles & algebra. He may have had people who could vouch for him eg Hugh Stanley McLaren.
I don’t think any of this this was related to Charlie’s death. I think he may have become involved in a dud car business with Prosper T, but again, not necessarily a cause of death…
It would be very difficult to establish any signals related work history without more information. There are some FRUMEL staff on the Bletchley Park Honour Roll & people who were alive in 2011 received a badge (eg Joan Duff). Basically for FRUMEL you write to GCHQ with whatever information you have – eg for a family member and if they agree with you they will include them on the roll. There is a Jean Robertson but she appears to be British. For other areas of signals work I’ve no idea how you would establish civilian employment history, similarly for the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation factory at Fisherman’s Bend, I don’t know if there are surviving employee records.
Just as the science of DNA identification had emerged, so links to living memory are fading away!
….with all the Gavey wife swapping, and adultery who is to say Ruby Webb found solace with another man…. but who is this man as it doesn’t seem as she married again? Who is Brenda’s father? She was a nurse and Brenda was born in 1946…dare I say….?
Ruby had a step brother Ernest Arthur Gorman whose 1st wife Jessie Gorman nee Watkins ran off with another guy could Beverley been her child, any records? his second with was known as aunt Pat
@ Jo,
Thanks! I supposed you have gone through all the Dorothys and Jeans in that list (Dorothy Joan England, Dorothy Jean Warner)?
If she wasn’t a registered Pharmacist in Victoria, what are the options? She either lied or was registered in another State? Could it be in South Australia where she was when she filed her divorce papers? Or NSW where she was heading to, according to Colleen? Is there a similar list available for SA and NSW and have anyone already checked them?
Colleen said (Mind over Murder podcast) that by January 1946, Carl has decided the marriage was over, so there’s a one year gap between this information and Dorothy (or Carl?) leaving the house in April 1947. Maybe Dorothy had been already training for Pharmacist in SA, hence Carl looking for her over there?
@ misca,
Does that ad in the Australian Jewish News imply that Brenda Webb was Jewish? Just curious…
Anyway, according to Angela she died in 1985 in Mount Druitt, NSW – New South Wales Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages. Death: Brenda Therese Lesley Mullin. Registration number: 18730/1985, District: Sydney. Father: Roy. Mother: not listed. (which is very strange!)
Ann O: all that ‘missing pieces’ crap and it’s aftermath has been well and truly done and dusted mate, but how were you to know? Only one Jean Langley, this one from Diagonal Rd. Gleneld and Somerton is on my agenda for resolution at present and no body dares to become involved.
@PAT definitely not Roy’s as he was truly dead….I am inclined to think that Brenda might have been Carl’s
“Brenda Therese Lesley Mullin” appears nowhere on Ancestry.
She appears in a 1972 electoral roll as “Brenda Lesley Mullin” living at 12/33 Caroline Street, Mitchell, Northmead. At the same address is a John Bernard Mullin. He’s a “carrier”.
There is also a find-a-grave for a Brenda Mullin as follows:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/164088986/brenda-mullin?_gl=1*1e6dm9m*_ga*NjM2OTk3NzM0LjE2NjE3MTM4OTI.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2NDgyNDQxMC4xODkuMS4xNjY0ODMzMzY0LjAuMC4w
It states her age at death as being 38.
Thee are a few trees that show her as being married to John Bernard Mullin (born 1942) but none of them show who her parents were. A couple of them show her as having had a daughter with no other information provided.
There is also one tree (with no supporting documents) that lists her as being born in 1943 in Melbourne with her death on 8 July 1985 in Sydney. On this tree, her name is listed as “Brenda Therese Webb” and it shows her being married to John Bernard Mullin (1942-2013) as follows:
Marriage – 16 JAN 1965 • Auburn Sydney N.S.W.
It’s an extensive tree focused on the Mullin side and is not a “pop up” tree from someone just following SM.
@em,
And how do you know that Roy was truly dead?
@em,
What would be the reason to spirit Brenda away from her grandparents – legally as well?
Normally grandparents take the grandchildren if the parents are dead. But why did both grandparents not want to be legally responsible for Brenda?
Even if she was Carl’s? Surely they would want to protect her more – not kick her out?
In doing so did they turn Brenda into another version of Carl – a lonely person who was disconnected from their family and partner?
@ Ann O
Thanks to the link to Missing Pieces. I knew of this doco but didn’t know that it was now available on YouTube. I really like Prof Abbott’s piece at the end – as to why we get caught up in this, as there are so many resolution evading ways to view everything.
Another interesting observation was that we have another view of the codes page. I assume that this came from the Police or Police Museum. It shows the page before it was traced over with ink – the letters seem to be very clear indentations. I note that the phone number/s aren’t on this page, they must have been somewhere else… (there was another theory that they had been covered up and were on the same page as the letters)
The Manning Clark story was interesting! I read both Charlie and Jess/Jo as working class battlers who yearned for a more intellectual and middle class milieu than the one they were born into. This story has a lot about class, as well as so many other threads. Robin Thompson wasn’t born into a typical ballet dancing family and yet rose to the top of his field, no doubt with Jo’s strong support.
Ann O: O deary me, here I am giving you due credit for the 105 Moseley St. lead with the Sparrow family insitu circa. 1948 plus their connection to Adelaide high society without remorse if that makes your day brighter. I’m not so happy with your Beaumont slur but will plead guilty as charged to making scurrilous remarks towards my well meaning fellow punter’s at their expence quite frequently. I can’t speak for the so called others (like offenders) you mention, so best I leave it to them to account for any unsavoury remarks they might have cast in your direction. Goodby and fare thee well you fucking goose!
I have been going back over some old posts on Derek Abbott’s’ Identifying the Somerton Man’ Facebook page and the following might shed light on a few recent queries. I know many here are happy to make mean-spirited remarks about the Prof (jealousy methinks) but he ain’t the only one to have come up with some ridiculous hypotheses or to wear blinkers when it comes to certain aspects of the SM case.
DOROTHY JEAN WEBB
A couple of Derek’s comments.
On 22 August: “It would be interesting to find out what the word “pharmacist” in 1940s Australian parlance actually meant. Did it just mean “pharmacist” or was it also used to mean “pharmacy assistant”?”
On 29 August “Even though she was in Bute the divorce was still administrated thru’ Victoria. She calls herself “pharmacist and chiropodist” in these papers.”
I will also post again here Derek’s 17 August reply to my question about Doff:
“The only evidence we have of her in Bute is she signed a divorce document in 1951 and gave her residence as Bute, South Australia. But the Bute town history group have nothing on her in their records. This leads me to suspect she just was transient and maybe stayed on a farm there for less than a year. I wonder if between 1947 and 1951 she was in Adelaide itself? Adelaide would certainly need to be a step before Bute, as it would be unlikely that she would know anyone from Bute coming ‘cold’ from Victoria. So a good bet would be to search for her on Adelaide Rate Books.
As for what happened to her later in life, all I have are oral statements from relatives that she is known to have died in NSW in the late 1990s and that her sister sent money to pay for her funeral. So I suspect she didn’t stay too long in SA and wound up in NSW for the rest of her life. The difficulty with tracking her maybe due to name changes through serial marriages or otherwise.”
He also replied to my follow up query on 18 August:
“The 69 Murphy St [Elsternwick, Victoria] is correct I believe. Also those bridge puzzles are definitely him. Given his interest in puzzles in papers, his “code” letters could simply be his scratchings.”
.KEVIN ALEXANDER D’ARCY
One Mitch Whalmi contacted me as early as 18 August to say “Kevin Alexander D’Arcy has an NAA record.” Derek then asked Mitch on 19 August “Is there any hard evidence he [D’Arcy] was married to Dorothy? I have not seen that as yet.”
Mitch replied to Derek the same day with this info:
“Victoria Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages. Death: Kevin Alexander D’Arcy. Registration number: 15653/1991, Place of death: not listed. Place of birth: not listed. Age at Death: 68. Father: William D’Arcy. Mother: Flora Jane Mackay.
Notes
From death record:
Place of Death: Bacchus Marsh.
Date and Place of Birth: 4 May 1923, Victoria.
Occupation: Public Servant.
Relationship(s): Never Married.
Burial: 25 May 1991, Maddingley Cemetery, Bacchus Marsh.
Informant: J. D’Arcy.
Maddingley Cemetery, Bacchus Marsh, Victoria Grave Cs 166”
Derek then replied “I still don’t see any solid link to a further husband for Dorothy.”
JOHN RUSSELL KEANE
On 13 August I had asked Derek: “Presumably you contacted Gerald Thomas Keane’s granddaughter through Bill and Gwen D[ickinson] (who I mentioned in my previous reply [about John Russell Keane in Canada]) – if she is still alive. She certainly was in 2015 and is listed as profile manager to several members of the family on a certain genealogy website [WikiTree]. She would be John Russell Keane’s niece and Carl Webb’s great-niece. Shame if she or surviving family members didn’t have some photos/info. Also Dorothy Jean Webb is listed on the electoral roll for 1949 as living in Elsternwick, Victoria, so maybe unlikely that Carl was trying to contact her in SA.” Well. I got a thumbs up anyway! One Ana Ringler had alerted Derek to the possibility that Carl’s clothes were John Russell’s as early as 6 August.
@David Morgan I believe at the time Ruby died, in 1968 from cancer both maternal grandparents had already deceased. At that time Brenda was 12, I am assuming she was taken in by Ruby’s brother Ivor.
@Jo
I will reply to your posts more fully later – as a former social anthropology student I’m very interested in the whole sociocultural aspect of this case – but a couple of quick points.
I can see no Austen-sible reason to link (Kev) D’Arcy to (Dr John Barkly) Bennett, but I’m, erm, open to Persuasion. Don’t give Colonel Sanders ideas. [ Off-colour joke here removed by moderator, who thinks you really ought to do better than that. ]
That Preston Warehouse JD gig has long been treasured amongst JD bootleg aficionados, partly ‘cos of the equipment failures. I like to think I was well ahead of the fashion curve by sporting an ‘Unknown Pleasures’ t-shirt around Darwin (NT, not Darwen, Lancs) in 1983 – the Canterbury gig was one day after the album was released. On YouTube there is some footage of a very strung-out Nico performing with Blue Orchids at Preston Warehouse in 1982. She lived in Manchester during much of the ’80s. I saw her in a small venue there performing solo and it was very strange to see the “icon” of New York “cool” sitting at the next table to us after the performance with a pint in one hand and a fag in the other! One feels that Carl might have appreciated her version of lover Jim M’s ‘The End’, which she played memorably that night, given the whole Tamam Shud thing. Well, Nico was the “Godmother of Goth”.
See: https://youtu.be/WciOwj7L2zE
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/images/1952/V/general/1078.pdf
See SA Register of Midwives, 1951. Stella Joyce Webb of Elsternwick (5 Missouri Ave) training in Adelaide in 1948-9. Could this be Ruby Stella Webb?
@misca,
This tree says 1946
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/descendancy/GFFV-MK5
@ Pat
A Dorothy Jean Dawson, WA pharmacist, qualifying in Victoria in 1953. I can’t find much else about her.
https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/prod/gazettestore.nsf/FileURL/gg1972_025.pdf/$FILE/Gg1972_025.pdf?OpenElement
John Sanders
Is that Au Revoir or Adieu?
I’m glad you put up the white flag concerning Adelaide’s own version of Edith Piaf, our Nan. Non, je me regrette rien. Actually I just put out the bait and hope somebody bites. I don’t believe any of it. Any fool can see patterns in the chaos. If I may be excused a personal example my next-door neighbour’s brother used to live next door to a British serial killing couple called Fred and Rose West up the road in Gloucester. Fred even did some building work for him. When I asked my neighbour whether this included installing a torture chamber in the basement she just gave me a blank look. I hope no-one ever links me to that loathsome pair!
Do you think I’m masochistic enough to read all your old posts? I prefer to keep my tongue firmly in my cheek rather than up other peoples’ arses. I did find your little discussion about Mentone with Peter Davidson from August. Didn’t really go anywhere did it? Certainly not “done and dusted”. If you had actually watched that ‘Missing Pieces’ “crap” you would have known that Jess grew up in Mentone, although born in Marrickville, NSW. Don’t know where you’re going with Max and Jean Langley. Actually I think Harkness/Thomson IS probably relevant to the SM case although I would be gobsmacked if either she or Prosper was involved with Carl’s demise.
Your Langleys on the other hand are probably as irrelevant as Mrs Arnold Bean.
That thread got tasty didn’t it? It inspired Pilchard to moan (on April 3, 2016) “personally, I try to draw the line at abusive / racist / sexist / homophobic / anti-religious / inflammatory [posts].” Wonder why he lets all your comments through?
Meilleurs Voeux Colonel.
I suppose BRENDA THERESE LESLEY MULLIN (WEBB)”s DOB is solely based on her age when she died in 17 July 1985, ie 38 years-old (grave photo has been requested), her birth being around 1946-1947. Unless someone has bought her Death Certificate 18730/1985 and it states otherwise.
Any news on Beverley?
Re: Brenda Webb.
Ruby Webb’s will named Eric North Parry, engineer, and his wife, Nereda Parry (nee Sandy) as Brenda’s guardians. I can find no link between the Parrys and Ruby, although Eric and Nereda were married in Melbourne in 1929, so she may have known them socially. They appear to have moved to NSW soon after their marriage.
Brenda stated that she was the daughter of Roy Webb at the time of her marriage in 1965, so she may not have known the truth. According to Brenda’s death record, she had no surviving children, so we will never know the identity of her biological father.
I also wondered why Brenda was not raised by Ruby’s parents, however, a quick search on Trove led some very “interesting” facts. Ruby’s father, Joseph Gavey, was described by Detective J. O’Keefe in court in 1925 as a reputed shopbreaker, a gunman, and one of a gang which went about Prahran and other suburbs terrorising shopkeepers and other persons. He was a known associate of Leslie “Squizzy” Taylor and other criminals. Ruby’s mother, Annie, shot at her husband at his solicitor’s office during their divorce proceedings in 1914, so it would appear that poor Ruby had a very dysfunctional childhood. I wonder how Roy and Ruby met? Were the Webbs aware of Joseph Gavey’s activities?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155558351
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10809990
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155185504
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12253291
@ misca,
Regarding your previous post:
‘She appears in a 1972 electoral roll as “Brenda Lesley Mullin” living at 12/33 Caroline Street, Mitchell, Northmead. At the same address is a John Bernard Mullin. He’s a “carrier”.’
Where exactly is/was this address? I can find a Caroline Street in Weastmead, NSW and a Caroline Street in Mitchell, Queensland.
@ Angela, what does Brenda’s husband’s death certifictate say? He probably remarried as he died in 2013 but if they did have had children, she/he would have been in their early 50s . In 1958 Joseph Gavey would have been deceased (1951) , Ruby’s stepmother Clara died in 1955. I do not know Minnie dod but surprised Ivor didn’t offer to be Brenda’s guardian. Anything on Beverley named in Joseph Gaveys’ Orbituary? I will try to find out more about Edward Parry
This thread has moved quickly- from Manning Clark to Squizzy Taylor!
Whist Wake in Fright (the original film) is recommended viewing for getting a sense of Broken Hill, Squizzy Taylor has a whole six part recent TV series, as part of the Underbelly suite, about the Melbourne underworld over time…
Pat –
I think it’s the Westmead one. The listing reads as follows:
Name Brenda Lesley Muilin
Gender Female
Electoral Date 1972
Electoral Place Northmead, Mitchell, New South Wales, Australia
Residence Address 1233 Caroline St, Wstmd 2145
Ann O @ Sue d’nihm?: had you been attuned to my posts of yesteryear you would have been surprised like many Marrickville supporters to learn that our Jessica was in-fact born 100 miles north at sound alike Maryville an inner suburb of Newcastle-on-Hunter and subsequently raised by the Salvation Army. This situation may have come about due to her dad, an electrical linesman entering into a partnership that went bust. When the Harkness family moved to Mentone about 1927 they took the two boys Tom & James plus young Jean also a Geordie by birth, leaving Jessica to her life with the Booth family. NB Unlike her sister who remained out in Newcastle, ‘Jenny’ was schooled in Mordialoc college and to her credit was sac race champ two years running in 1933/4?
Eric North Parry Electrical Engineer, Nereda Parry active in the inner wheel circle organisation for wives and daughters of Rotary club members -, Son Eric Leornard Parry Urology surgeon accidently killed himself- said to be rubbing a clear liquid on himself (???) Sister Betty Parry. I gave up there. So is there any cause of death for Brenda?
Angela/em –
Joseph’s petition for divorce against Annie Elizabeth (Allen) Gavey is on ancestry and ooo-boy, it’s a doozy. He also includes three co-respondents as. people she has committed adultery with! (Ernest Simpson, John Yarnton and James Cherry.). He refers to himself as a “clerk”. He claims that she got pregnant and miscarried someone else’s child. (He suggests it might be Ballantyne Simpson’s child.). He claims that she was leaving the children at home alone and he took custody of them in 1909 until 1914 (the time of the petition). For a brief period of time Annie had the children; she removed them from school in August 1913 and was arranging to have them admitted to Miss Sutherland’s Home for Neglected Children.
So, without question, Ruby and her brother John had quite a tumultuous upbringing.
Ruby’s brother John’s Tombstone reads as follows:
In loving memory of John William Ivor Joseph Gavey
Died 5 May 1977 Aged 71
Beloved husband of Winifred
Loving father of John, Ted, Les, Joyce, Dawn, Rae, Ellen, Peter, Linda
Stepfather of Frank, Richard, Barry
Always Remembered
(I told you guys it’s an absolutely crazy tree!)
I think that the divorce went through and Joseph and Clara raised John and Ruby. When Clara died in 1955, Ruby posted the following:
GAVEY. — On October 7, at her residence, 29 Greville street, Prahran, Clara, beloved wife of the late Joseph Gavey, dearly loved mother of Ernest A. Gorman,
loved stepmother of Ivor and Ruby
(Mrs. Webb).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71700355?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Gavey%22
Oh…Did I mention that Clara’s first husband was an acrobat? She filed for divorce from him while pregnant! That divorce record is also available and it’s nuts too!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241266241?searchTerm=James%20Gorman%20acrobat
This article in 1914 about Annie Elizabeth’s shooting, refers to three children. Her husband’s petition for divorce only refers to two.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/156828444?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Gavey%22
The story of Brenda Webb’s ?legal step-brother is quite shocking. He tried to self-immolate twice. Dr Eric Leonard Parry – the neurosurgeon. Yet the pathologist determined it was an accidental death. If Carl Webb had been a neurosurgeon perhaps it too would have been deemed an accidental poisoning perhaps injecting himself with kombetin to ward off mosquitoes while sleeping on a beach. It shows the inquest rules are changed depending on your social status.
I’ll have to check his wife wasn’t named Dorothy and that he wasn’t rubbing ether all over his body when she returned home with a lit match as the lights were off…
Brenda also died young. But I haven’t found the story of her death in a newspaper.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107070822?searchTerm=%22Dr.%20Eric%20Leonard%20Parry%22
Who was the informant on Brenda’s death? This is usually listed. The death certificate that was posted names Hugh Thomas Herman as the Registrar but there is no one listed as the informant? At the top is says “Third Schedule”. Are there any other forms attached to it?
There is a record as follows:
533/156 Ruby S Webb: Will; Grant of probate
Given name : Ruby S ; Family name : Webb ; Residence : Elsternwick ; Occupation : Widow ; Nature of grant : P ; Notes : F
Date of grant: 28 Oct 1958 ; Date of death: 30 Jun 1958
Part of record series: Wills ( 7591 )
Most recent creating agency: Registrar of Probates, Supreme Court
Record
VPRS 7591/P0003, 533/156
1958 to 1958
Open, Physical
North Melbourne
It’s part of a record series as described above as “Wills”.
It’s on the Victorian Records Site but I am unfamiliar as to how to open it or to find a way to open it! Does anyone know how it works?
@misca,
Thanks, now that makes sense.
Do we have a place for Carl aka Charles Webb in the 1941 electoral rolls? Is this him? Could this be his address before moving to 274 Domain rd with Doff? There’s no other Webb (that I could see) living at the same address.
Division: Carlton
Subdivision: Edward
5909 Webb, Charles 226, Glenlyon rd. N. 11, fitter, M
The Parry’s had a daughter Elizabeth Nereda who married Robert William Cameron. They also had a son Eric Leonard Parry who became a doctor. He died very young (34) in 1968.
Eric North Parry’s wife was Nereda Annie Sandy. She was born in 1906. So perhaps she and Ruby were childhood friends?
The Sandy’s lived at 2 Carlyle St, Moonee Ponds which is about a five minute drive from 15 Coats Street where Richard August went to stay at his daughter’s (Gladys May Scott) home just before he died.
em:
According to trees on Ancestry, Brenda Webb’s husband died in 2013, but I have not been able to verify this, as there were no death or funeral notices. His death record will not be available until 2043, due to the 30-year rule. I reached out to a couple of people on Ancestry, as Brenda would most likely have inherited some family photos, but no-one seems to have any first-hand information about her.
You are right (my mistake!), Joseph and his second wife Clara were deceased by 1958, but Ruby’s mother, brother, and step-brother were still alive, so it is odd that Brenda did not remain in Victoria after her mother’s death.
@ Angela
The “Argument over a YES Button” article is absolute gold!
For those beyond Australia – this is at the height of the WWI conscription debate. The YES button is a pro-conscription badge that has been dropped on the floor, at a Chinese restaurant, beginning a wild argument involving hot soup being hurled and a gun being produced! Just your regular night out in 1916, downtown Melbourne…
There were two referenda – in 1916 and 1917. The Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne, Mannix, who is referred to in the article, was opposed to both the war and conscription (a lot to do with Irish politics here….) – although many Australian Catholics supported both conscription and the war.
I’ll hop into Trove and correct it and let teacher friends know – both Trove and the NAA War Service files are used a lot in secondary school history teaching here. This could be a great resource!
@ Pat
Good find! There haven’t been any confirmed addresses between 1939, at the bakery and Domain Road in 1941. This puts Carl very close to the Keanes in East Brunswick. Nowadays this is a large block, with thirteen single bedroom apartments. It may have been a boarding house in 1941.
John Sanders
I’m not sure I care whether Jess was born in Marrickville. Maryville or Patrick White’s mythical locations Sarsaparilla or Barranugli, but I commend your sleuthing.
I have seen the Sue d’nimh name elsewhere, but I plead ignorance. If you were so inclined it wouldn’t take you too long to find out my real name!
@Jo mentioned the fillum ‘Wake in Fright’ recently, as I had done a while back with ref to Broken Hill. I can picture you as a mix between the Chips Rafferty cop character and Donald Pleasance’s alcoholic doctor. Perhaps I was once like Gary Bond’s ingenue teacher especially when I was hanging around dusty outback towns like Derby, Wyndham and Katherine in the early ’80s. I never shot any roos though, but I did have a few (!) drinks with the Hell’s Angels Mad Max donkey shooter mob operating out of Broome – that’s when I wasn’t chilling out with the hippie “mung beans” who had colonised Cable Beach before the Sidney Nolan collecting Thatcherite Baron McAlpine turned the area into a boring club for the rich and not so famous. Despite my best efforts I never came anywhere close to cutting it as as a Malcolm Douglas or a Les Hiddins or even a brothers Leyland type. I did encounter more than a few crocs up rivers in Arnhem Land but my favourite croc story is about Fatso, From Time, 19 November 2010:
“Michael Newman [of Melbourne] was tossed out of a local watering hole for being overly intoxicated…but instead of having the sense to either go home or pass out or some combination of the two, he headed to the [Malcolm Douglas] Broome Crocodile Park. There he proceeded to climb a fence into the crocodile enclosure and attempt to ride an 1,800-lb. (820 kg) crocodile named Fatso. Unsurprisingly, the croc was not happy with this turn of events, and he tore into Newman’s leg. Fortunately, the massive croc eventually let the 36-year-old tourist go, and Newman was able to crawl back over the fence and head straight back to the bar. Pub manager Mark Phillips told the BBC that Newman reappeared with “bits of bark hanging off him and flesh gouged out of his limbs.””
Anyway, I’m not sure how much further I’m prepared to follow dear old Dorothy down the yellow brick road in the Land of Oz without more leads. How come she has so quickly turned into the Wicked Witch of the West, the black widow, or perhaps one might say the Australian funnel-webb? Boom Boom!
@ Misca
Re the will – you need to create an account to be able to log in to the PROV. The will is available as a digital document – so you can simply view and download. Eric North Parry and Nereda Parry of Merrylands NSW are the executors, main beneficiaries and named guardians of Brenda. Stella’s address is 3 Elm Avenue Elsternwick.
I don’t know whether this is at all relevant – I’ve just realised that Ruby’s address at 3 Elm Avenue Elsternwick is a ten minute walk to Doff’s last known address at Murphy Street.
Nick
I don’t know why you censored my little joke – it wasn’t that risque or controversial. Perhaps I should remind you of your comment of April 3, 2016 which I quoted in a reply to Colonel Sanders above; “personally, I try to draw the line at abusive / racist / sexist / homophobic / anti-religious / inflammatory [posts].” You’ve not done a very good job there mate! I for one am sickened by the xenophobic, homophobic and particularly misogynistic comments you let through here. Everyone from Jestyn to Doff to Colleen Fitzpatrick to some of your female contributors (and I stress I’m a man) has been subjected to this, being referred to as “b*tches”, “b*nts”, “t*rts” and even in the case of Jess Thomson “the f****** slut C*** jizzbag jestyn.” (Ballfondler69 on July 27, 2022 at 5:16 am ).
I think I’ll take a break from commenting here. You never bother with my contributions anyway. It would seem that you only want “minions” who are prepared to dig into the little details like how many bus stops there are on the route from Hindley Street to Glenelg or whether a particular photo depicts Carl Webb’s great aunt/uncle’s wife’s niece’s husband’s aunt’s husband’s first cousin once removed’s wife’s aunt’s husband’s niece’s husband’s first cousin once removed’s husband’s sister.
And here is 226 Glenlyon rd N11 apartment
https://m.realestate.com.au/sold/property-apartment-vic-brunswick+east-137385230
@ misca,
Dr. Eric Leonard Parry’s tragic demise (David Morgan’s find)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107070822?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FC%2Ftitle%2F11%2F1968%2F08%2F31%2Fpage%2F11664109%2Farticle%2F107070822
Pat: a couple for your collection:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204402393?searchTerm=glenlyon – 05 Aug 1940
LOST, bet. E. Bruns. and city, Wallet, con-
taining notes and travelling certificate, work-
ing man. £2 reward. 226 Glenlyon-rd., E.
Brunswick. FW5649.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244581504?searchTerm=glenlyon – 09 Nov 1940
CHRYSLER 070 Roadster, excellent order, well
shod, reg. Octo., 41. Bargain. £47/10′
226 Glenlyon Rd., East Brunswick, FW5649
Ann O: I normally quite like your comments, but that particular joke was just not really ok any more (and not funny either). There’s no need to try so hard, after all it’s only the Colonel you’re up against. :-p
@ Nick,
Thanks! It really sounds like Carl’s sort of ad. And losing his wallet … that’s our man.
@ Ann O,
I don’t mind being called minion, fyi 🤪 And the jokes aren’t really funny, but you’re input is highly appreciated.
@ Pat – I the travelling certificate is significant! I wonder what it was? And whether the notes refers to bank notes or work related notes….
The apartments currently at 226 Glenlyon Rd are post war, but it is a very large block, which is why I’m thinking boarding house, similar to Domain Road…
Good on ya Ruby 🙂
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245028856?searchTerm=elsternwick%20mrs%20r%20webb
https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/content/media/29/388929-small.jpg
I hesitate to put this one up here as we might get a flood of Dunera comments!
I’m wondering if the Travelling Certificate is actually from someone else at the same address… Certificates were given to “aliens” – eg European Jews, coming to Australia before or during the war (eg Dunera & Tatura detainees) to allow them to live & work in Australia, with restrictions on their movement. See attached eg from Museums Victoria. Alternatively it could be Charlie’s and relate to him being able to travel to and enter a restricted area… I can’t find any egs of this type of certificate, but there could be some out there…
At a stretch, might Charlie as the son of a German born baker have had restrictions put on his movements? Ie. Travelling Certificate was his.
See the story of Karl Muffler, baker, whose cake shop, The Embassy, at 224 Glenferrie Road Malvern, was very close to the Webb’s earlier 1922-4 bakery…
Karl Muffler was responsible for introducing the Dolly Varden cake to Melbourne! I’m not sure if that constitutes a crime!
https://museumsvictoria.com.au/immigrationmuseum/resources/immigrant-stories/karl-muffler/
John Bernard Mullin (1942-2013) was the son of George Francis Mullin and Ellen Olive Fox (m. 1939 in Newtown, NSW), still living there in 1939 with Bridget Rosina Mullin (George’s mom). By 1946 they were living in Petersham, Marrickville at 65 Addison rd and Bridget Louise was living at 15 East st.
George Francis Mullin was the son of Bernard Joseph Mullin (1874-1931) and Bridget Louisa (Rosanah) (Rosma) Gates (1871-1952) (m. in 1898 in Sidney). In1903, Bernard Joseph Mullin was in Phillip, 49 Caroline st. In 1913 he was in Derby-place, 47 Francis st with Bridget Rosma. In 1935, 1937 and 1939 there’s another Bernard Joseph Mullin (son?) at 46 Hall st, then 82 Campbell parade, then 17 Gipps st, Bondi, with Jessie Ellen Mullin, Leslie William Vincent and Myrtle Gwendoline.
Jessie Ellen Mullin appears in 1946 with Leslie Willam Vincent in Kembla at 3 Masons Flats, 76 Darcy rd, Leslie being a union org.
@Jo,
Yes, ‘travelling certificate, working man’… does it mean he used to travel as part of his work? Or working man is just to say he really needed his wallet back? haha
I think the Travelling Permit is for someone other than Charlie, he would not have needed to register under the 1939 Aliens Registration Act (Italians, Germans & Japanese etc, not the Roswell variety!)
@ Jo
Sands and McD have an Arthur G. Marr living at 226 Glenlyon Rd, Brunswick E in their 1940 edition. I trust he’s not the Arthur Marr who anticipated the Adelaide Children’s Zoo outrage by nearly 100 years …
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OevemUgtOfskIo2m9WVqulHud4o9VvtH/view?usp=sharing
Nick
Final comment from me on this matter.
No more jokes about Frances Burney, I promise. But I’m sure Chinese people have a lot more to worry about than an old fashioned dodgy joke about their accents given the oppression they face in their own country and the racism they suffer elsewhere. Considering the (for example) anti-Semitic, hate-filled, and very personal attacks you seem to approve of I’m still a bit bemused by your sudden high moral tone. If you had a complaint from another contributor, and I can guess who that might have been, then I apologise to you anyway.
If I find out something important in future such as how many loaves of bread Carl used to deliver or how often Doff manicured Kev D’Arcy’s toenails I’ll be sure to let you know.
Best Wishes
Steve H aka Ann O
Steve H: I know that comment well – when presented with a troll who had such a raging urge to have their hateful potty-mouth indulged, I took it as a sign of a deep obsession, and let it through.
You, however, are a sensible, rational person who has a choice whether or not to include old-fashioned ‘casual racism’ in your comments.
Jo, during WW2 a travell permit was required to be able to travel to certain parts of Australia. I understand that these areas were in the north which had military significance.
According to this website, the Masonic Lodges used to issue ‘Travelling Certificates”
https://www.fraternalsecrets.org/they-call-each-other-brother/
Maybe Carl needed a travelling certificate to go to New Zealand and pick up Dorothy…
Electoral Roll 1935
N. 14628
Dorothy Jean Robertson
Lyttelton
Canterbury
Sanatorium, spinster
Pat –
Leslie Willam Vincent Mullin was John Bernard’s uncle and he married Jessie Ellen Hannah (1901-1960).
Ann O: I honestly don’t know what gets into folks at times. You didn’t per chance happen to “kick the lid of [sic] pandora’s box or kill a chinaman” did you?, it could well have been under yet another pseudonom back in the dim & distant past; If so, perhaps our post censor took offence to it and now you’re paying the price for said indiscretion. I’d say we both have you correctly pegged for ‘ancient mariner’ Rob N. circa. 2016 or thereabouts.
The objective of trying to find Brenda Mullins nee Webb was to find similarities in terms of physical appearance, congenital illnesses that could link her to Carl ( my theory) When Roy disappeared Carl as being similar appearance and closer in age to Roy as well as (probably) a sense of duty in light of Roy’s demise. Roy could have known the Parrys since they both were in similar trades. Ruby was outspoken re community, etc so she might have been a member of the Inner Wheel Club. since we know Nereda was a member then we can assume that Eric was a member of the Rotary club…. which might explain the white tie….
@ Byron
The date of the notice and hence certificate is 1940, so prior to 7 December 1941, the “day that will go down in infamy”! I always think of WWII in Australia has having two episodes or phases – the first focused on Britain, Europe and anti German hysteria (eg internment etc) and the second as being focused on Japan, the Pacific and partnerships with the USA. I think this actually had huge implications for Australian history and identity going forwards…After 1941 Cairns or anywhere in the north would be obvious contenders for travelling certificates. On the other hand you’d probably need a certificate for restricted areas anywhere in the earlier years too – eg Bonegilla, Tatura…
It was the 1940 date that made me think about people who may have needed to register as “aliens” and for whom I found a corresponding type of certificate. It’s all speculative and contingent on the next pieces of info to emerge!
It adds another layer of interest! I don’t feel as though I’ll ever really know the Charlie Webb story, on the other hand, I feel as though I know so much more about parts of the twentieth century I wasn’t around for! (I had a weird twighlight moment seeing a 1985 copy of the Jewish News pop up in a link! I probably sold that very same edition from the old Elwood newsagency!)
I’m wondering if this is a kind of gamification of history!
@ Pat
You’ve probably got it! A Freemason’s travelling certificate! We already know that Richard Augustus Webb was a Freemason…
According to this info, Freemasons’ records are in the process of being made available via familysearch.org
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Australia,_New_South_Wales_and_Capital_Territory_Masonic_Registers_and_Card_Indexes_-_FamilySearch_Historical_Records#Sample_Images
https://www.freemasonsvic.net.au/contact/
Freemasons Victoria also have a library and maybe records? Their web site says that they are still working from home…
John Sanders
I didn’t even have a computer in 2016. I had better things to do with my life. How the mighty have fallen!
If I post here in future I will stick to my own findings and not engage with other contributors. Nothing to do with you John, but it does seem that some people just don’t get the ironies and contradictions of life, and end up mistaking the map for the territory.
@misca,
Thanks! Regarding Beverley, where exactly has she been mentioned? I can’t find it. I remember that Douglas Russell McCluskey – Richard Russell Webb’s son with Linda McCluskey) – had a daughter called Beverley…
It seems that 226 Glenlyon Road, East Brunswick was a large house in which rooms were rented out. There are lots of ads from the 1930s:
M.C., single, good table, homely, washing… etc
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203839332?searchTerm=226%20Glenlyon
Some include availability of a garage.
There’s also a rather nice article, written by eleven year old Margaret Eddy of 226 Glenlyon Rd, in January 1939, informing us that ancient Greeks used lifts, for which she was awarded a certificate!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205968879?searchTerm=226%20Glenlyon
My grand mother and great grandmother ran similar arrangements back in the UK – boarders of all kinds, up until the late 1970s. (My mum’s grandmother had a better house – so quite a few trainee detectives; my dad’s parents a bit more feral, so mainly truck drivers and travelling performers). I have a great photo negative of a Chinese acrobat troupe practicing in the back yard of my grandparents’ terraced house in the north of England in the 1930s or 40s!
Re Ruby and Brenda
It seems that Brenda grew up believing that her father was Roy. There could be a chance she was Carl’s daughter – he is reported to have told Doff in 1946 that they “were not suited”. Perhaps there was a family rift, explaining why his family didn’t realise he was missing? It’s all speculation. There were also a lot of “left behind” children of American and.other servicemen. Ruby was a nurse.
What’s probably more significant is that there was a big effort to keep left behind children (whose fathers probably didn’t know about them, or who had died) with their mothers and in their communities; they enjoyed far more community support than single mothers from the 1950s-70s. I had some great conversations with a Melbourne historian, Majorie Tipping, whilst she was alive. In 1946 Marjorie helped to establish a childcare centre and kindergarten on Fawkner Park (near Bromby Street and the 33 AWAS women’s signal training camp) – its still there. Her friend Ivy Brooks, established a before and after school care program at nearby South Yarra Primary School. (All detailed in a 1985 book, Double Time). One of the big drivers of this work was concern for left behind children, including those of American servicemen and the children of war widows.
Is there anyone on here who has a Melbourne Freemasonry link? I think contact would work better with a direct link or recommendation. They may have member index cards which might give us details of addresses and employment if Charlie was a member, following in the footsteps of Richard Augustus… Pat had also suggested previously that the white tie may be linked to the Masons.
I don’t believe in any of Masonry conspiracy stuff & worked as a casual nursing assistant years ago at a Freemasons’ aged care home in Prahran, where there were lots of old Masons. As their website says, the Masons were very popular in Australia as this was a means of building social capital and connection, including for migrant men.
I would be happy to check archives with an intro…
@Pat, Beverley is named on Trove in Joseph Gavey’s obituary in the newspaper – family notices.
@em,
Thanks! Stupid question: does Beverley need to be a close relative im order to be mentioned in the obituary? I have noticed that his second wife Clara has published many notices after his death, only mentioning Ruby and the brothers.
I have requested Brenda’s grave photo and there’s a Mary Delaney buried in the same place, who died at the age of 84 in 31 Dec 1970.
@Jo
Excellent posts, as always! Regarding the Masonry link, Abbot said he has a connection with and he would ask for information on Richard August. He hasn’t reported back yet. Actually, his FB group doesn’t have much activity since he (or another admin) has restricted people to post only once per day. Maybe he’s busy investigating with the assistance of SAPOL or Carl’s and Dorothy’s descendants or maybe he lost interest or maybe he’s just busy with his engineering students.
I hope you find a way to get your hands on their archives. They must be an impressive body of knowledge, judging by what I know from my grandfather and his brothers, unfortunately all of them have died a long time ago and I don’t have any contact with their descendants who might have followed in their steps at the Masonry.
@em,
Sorry, I found the death notice. She was Joseph Gavey’s granddaughter. John, Leslie, Terry and Joyce are the offspring of Ernie and Ivor? I have noticed that they have written ‘Beverly’, not Beverley.
Odd. I have found only two electoral rolls for Brenda and John. They are both listed with their full names and they are both for 1972. The two addresses are about a 15 minute drive from one another. I had already listed the one I had found for Brenda. The second one, I found looking for John. I assume that they moved that year. They are as follows:
Name Brenda Lesley Muilin
Gender Female
Electoral Date 1972
Electoral Place Northmead, Mitchell, New South Wales, Australia
Residence Address 1233 Caroline St, Wstmd 2145
Name John Bernard Mullin
Electoral Date 1972
Electoral Place Smithfield, Prospect, New South Wales, Australia
Residence Address 24 Brentwood St, Frfld W
Pat – What a find! Mary Delaney! Her find a grave listing shows her death as the 7 January 1971 but the dates listed are often the date of internment. How did you find the 31 December 1970 death date?
@ misca,
I requested Brenda’s grave photo and it’s now available @ findagrave. Mary Delaney’s name is above Brenda Mullin’s.
https://pt.findagrave.com/memorial/164088986/brenda-mullin
Another reason for having a ‘travelling certificate’, not sure if it was still valid in 1940.
VOTERS AND THEIR QUALIFICATIONS
(…) Persons who may be travelling or temporarily away can obtain a travelling certificate, which entitles them to vote at any polling place within the same Electoral District for the Upper House – Northern, North-Eastern, Souther, or Central.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165888870?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FS%2Ftitle%2F826%2F1894%2F05%2F18%2Fpage%2F19429761%2Farticle%2F165888870
….So who is Mary Delaney? @Pat, pretty sure it is Beverley if my eyes aren’t tricking me
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244236155?searchTerm=JOSEPH%20GAVEY%20BEVERLEY
The lady who uploaded Brenda’s grave photo on findagrave told me that being buried in that Section 14SVdP (St Vincent de Paul) means that she had no means of a proper burial and the SVdP would have paid for that to happen so that she could have a proper burial. Poor Brenda…
@ Pat – who is Mary Delaney??
Re Travelling Certificate – there was a federal election in September 1940, So this could be a match. I haven’t found if the certificates were still used then… in any case it would be interesting if it is Charlie’s as it indicates travel & movement, probably work related…
I’m keen to follow up possible Freemasons records too as if there is a member index card it might give us more details of work history…
@ Ann/Steve
Re the territory and the map…
I actually did some interesting neighbourhood mapping but am beginning to doubt its relevance to the territory. I’ve found an organisation that might be able to help (Central Bureau Intelligence Association – digitised newsletters on Peter Dunn’s Oz at War site) but we’re probably about ten years too late! The Association was wound up in 2020… Old signals intelligence and FRUMEL staff used to get together once they were out of their secrecy provision period, they held reunions and had a newsletter.
@ Ann O
Here’s the link to the Signit newsletters- I haven’t been able to find any references to either sourdough or toe clippings or any such related miscellany in the couple I browsed through when I Shud have been doing other stuff…
https://www.ozatwar.com/sigint/cbicanewsletters.htm
Maybe the last secretary and/or president know of any lists or files with personnel records… maybe it’s just an interesting historical cul de sac…
I was in the vicinity of Ruby’s street today, Elm Avenue, Elsternwick, it is a small tree lined cul de sac, off a very busy highway (Nepean Highway). It is in the heart of the South Eastern suburbs car yard territory – currently major Mitsubishi and Toyota dealerships at the end of the street, with some historic dealerships along this stretch of the Nepean Highway.
Doff’s last known address, 69 Murphy Street, 500m from Ruby’s place, on the other side of the highway. A beautiful old weatherboard house, opposite Elsternwick Primary School. They probably used the same shops on Gardenvale Road and the same train station at Gardenvale.
@Jo,
Have you thought about a Nov 1948 map of who was where? Some might have to be assumed but could be explained.
How would the conversation go with Dorothy and Ruby in the greengrocers – “How’s Carl?” or “Any more news on Carl?” or “Where will you go now C has moved on?”
Ruby Webb protesting about trees being removed in her street:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245028856?searchTerm=webb%2C%20%22elm%20avenue%22
Nick
I note in your reply to my comment above that you said I was a “sensible, rational person”. That is a slur on my character! My own beloved mater always used to say that I was “a bit touched” and “not all there”. After an emergency admission to hospital a few years ago due to a bungled suicide attempt I was diagnosed with psychotic depression (delusions, paranoia, hallucinations etc) but no sob stories from me here. I do not, however, use my “deep obsessions” as an excuse to troll others online or make virulent personal attacks on people who are unable or unwilling to fight back. My mental state may on the other hand cause me sometimes to react badly to other people’s sense of their own importance, and to po-facedness and priggishness. It could even possibly explain my penchant for the “Carry On” style of humour. On another level I do find the focus on identity politics a convenient way of deflecting from the massive structural inequalities in the world and the increasing concentration of power in the hands of an an ever more contemptuous (and contemptible) elite.
Nothing I have read or watched in recent weeks on the SM case has really led me to conclude that this is anything other than a suicide – whether deliberate and unassisted, assisted, or by the personal neglect of the man’s health and wellbeing. If we are to accept Colleen Fitzpatrick’s account of Doff’s account of the unhappy marriage then we have evidence that Carl had made at least one previous suicide attempt. So the question that interests me most is whether Doff or Jessica or anyone else helped Carl to his end. In that case there may have been a cover up of sorts. Now I’ve said that it’ll probably turn out that he was a communist, a Nazi or a participant in some ghastly sex pervert ring involving Adelaide’s “high society” and was killed to silence him!
I will conclude for now with a quote from one of my favourite horror writers, Thomas Ligotti, from his pessimistic series of essays The Conspiracy Against the Human Race (2010):
“We did not make ourselves, nor did we fashion a world that could not work without pain, and great pain at that, with a little pleasure, very little, to string us along = a world where all organisms are inexorably pushed by pain throughout their lives to do that which will improve their chances to survive and create more of themselves. Left unchecked, this process will last as long as a single cell remains palpitating in this cesspool of the solar system, this toilet of the galaxy…We did not create an environment uncongenial to our species, nature did. One would think that nature was trying to kill us off, or get us to suicide ourselves once the blunder of consciousness came upon us. What was nature thinking?”
Steve H: sorry for calling you “sensible” and “rational”, I’ll find better descriptions in future! :-p
My own tentative conclusion from a fair few years ago was that the Somerton Man’s death was most likely to have ultimately been caused by a misdiagnosis / misdosage (the poor bloke can’t have been feeling too chipper, let’s face it), and that the people who, let’s say, “contributed” to the end result (through their actions or non-actions) preferred not to subsequently broadcast details of their culpability and/or shortcomings. Essentially, an after-the-event cover-up of a cock-up rather than a premeditated conspiracy / murder / suicide / etc.
Nick – I agree. I think an ill man went to visit people he knew and most likely took ill in a most inconvenient way under circumstances that would compromise them and they did a shit-show cover up. (I don’t think they killed him.)
Can’t imagine doing the same. Can you? Something a bit bigger was at stake.
@ em @ Jo
Re Mary Delaney, you have to ask misca, I have no idea!
@ em
It’s ‘Beverly’ here, so suppose anything is possible
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23074256?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1951%2F08%2F14%2Fpage%2F1747860%2Farticle%2F23074256
misca: if the soon-to-be-dead guy had come to your town to see you in connection with a specific illegal activity (and ‘fessing up about his demise would inevitably involve ‘fessing up to that illegal activity)… you know how the rest of the scenario could easily run. 😮
Pat –
I have no idea who Mary Delaney is! She’s potentially the right age to be a grandmother to Brenda but I have not encountered any Delaney’s yet in any of the family’s branches. It could be her married name which makes things even more difficult and the “Mary” well, there are a lot of Mary’s! I guess the first presumption is that she is perhaps the mother of Brenda’s father?
Regarding Beverly – I’m not sure that the Gorman side of the family had much of anything to do with Clara and John Ivor. Clara divorced her first husband while still pregnant. (I doubt she had a second child with him.). He had already gotten into trouble with the law and was a circus acrobat who may have later become a theatre comedian. He used many names and is difficult to track. For example:
“Subsequently that officer arrested James Gorman, an acrobat and contortionist, known professionally as” Mons. Loander, the human serpent.” Gorman. was before the City Court on Wednesday, charged with the offence. He swore that he knew nothing about the matter, but the bench committed him for trial at the
February General sessions.”
He used various names including (potentially) James Loander.
The way Joseph’s obituary reads, I still think Beverly is the child of one of the three children (Ernie, John Ivor, Ruby). he recognizes but, anything is possible.
Nick –
I agree with you. I just have to imaging that the activity would have to be highly illegal for that sort of a cover up.
@ misca,
Taking into account what the lady who took Brenda’s grave photo said, that ‘being buried in that Section 14SVdP (St Vincent de Paul) means that she had no means of a proper burial and the SVdP would have paid for that to happen so that she could have a proper burial’, maybe she was buried in the same spot as Mary Delaney just because they can’t afford individual graves?
Misca
Maybe all the Americans left behind a pool of cars after WW2 that Carl had access to at the back of Bromby street or some other location. He could have been involved in some number plate fraud with the stencil brush and zinc – making fake plates and then taking them to Adelaide to sell on finance. There could have been several car dealers involved in the fraud ring with police officers taking bribes.
I agree with Pat, a shared grave plot owned by St Vincent de Paul Society.
Poor Brenda, a hard, sad and short life.
misca: for me, there seems to have been a kind of “cumulative guilt factor” – that is, I suspect it was the sum-total both of the initial illegal activity AND of the culpable negligence or misjudgments that led to the man’s death. Basically, I think that nobody involved would have emerged without considerable reputational damage (if not actual prosecution).
misca: …so it kind of embodies the “Triple-C” holy trinity of history – a Conspiracy that got Cocked up (disastrously) and then Covered up. 🙂
Ernest Arthur and Patricia Agnes Gorman’s grave photo shows that he was a Freemason. So far, no children.
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Patricia-Agnes-Gorman/16001450?referrer=myheritage
Pat –
I though the same thing as you. Maybe they don’t have any relationship at all? I do think that it would be highly unusual though.
There is a 1967 listing of Ernest Arthur Gorman and his wife Agnes Patricia at 103 Wickham Road, Highett, Victoria. On the same listing there are Raymond Aloysius Gorman (born 1911) and his wife Moira Teresa Hines living just around the corner at 56 Worthing Road. Raymond’s father is John James Gorman.
So, I could be wrong about there not being a relationship with the Gorman family.
Maybe Raymond and Ernest were half-brothers?
I began this chase with a feeling that signals intelligence work was in the mix, now I’m feeling that it’s more about cars. If so, there’s a poetic rounding. The first Australian car, backed by General Motors of Détroit, rolled off the assembly line at Fisherman’s Bend on 28 November 1948.
https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/holden-launch
“Many saw this as evidence of national maturity…that Australia had embraced the modern Industrial Age.”
Whether this was the case or not, Holden, who began as carriage makers in Adelaide, certainly transformed that city…
@ misca
I have no idea, but I could ask the Catholic lady who took the photo, she seems to be very knowledgeable regarding this subject. If Brenda’s relatives wouldn’t or couldn’t pay for her burial – where was her husband when she died? – I suppose she wouldn’t necessarily be buried in a ‘family’ spot.
I will keep searching….
So, it looks like Ernest and Jessie had quite and acrimonious divorce in 1954.. She seems to have taken off to parts unknown with a certain Oliver Hope-Johnstone. If you search for “Ernest Arthur Gorman” on trove, it’s the first thing to come up.
If they had a child together, it was most likely between 1942 when they got married and 1954 when they divorced. My guess, if they did, the child was probably born before Brenda. So…Between 1942 and 1946.
Pat –
Agreed. Most likely Agnes Patricia/Patricia Agnes and Ernest did not have a child together.
(She switched up her listings for electoral rolls at some point; they were Agnes first and then Patricia first).
Still possible, I suppose, a daughter with first wife Jessie who took off with Oliver Hope-Johnstone.
Otherwise, she’s either Ruby’s child or ???
Nick – Yes. I suppose a tragedy of sorts.
I agree with Pete on one thing…That they moved him. Which makes it all worse.
Nick
In your conclusions what did you make of the Tamam Shud slip and the mysterious torn copy of the ROK? If SM put the slip there himself he surely knew he would die, either by his own hand or through his declining health. But why throw the ROK in a car? Prof Abbott, by the way, still isn’t sure who handed the copy in to the police. From the Q & A on the ABC (3 August):
” The problem here is that a number of people handed in Rubaiyats to the police, but only one was the correct one. The two names of people we know handed them in are: a pharmacist John Freeman and a GP called Dr Douglas Buxton Hendrickson. There is evidence they both handed in Rubaiyats, but which one handed in the one that was Charles Webb’s copy? Don’t know!”
There’s also the question of the suitcase. If it was suicide one would assume Carl brought it to Adelaide because it contained all his worldly possessions and he was “homeless”, and just dumped it at the station. If not then he obviously intended going back to pick it up. And what about the lack of a coat, wallet, or any substantial amount of cash? Did he, or someone else dump/steal these? And that pesky Henley Beach ticket? I’m still to be convinced of Prosper’s involvement but it’s certainly possible.
@misca when Joseph Gavey died in 1951 the children stated on the orbituary were either Ivor’s or Ruby’s except Beverley who i have no intel on. What i find interesting is that it seems that Jessie eloped with Oliver because they went awol for a while but it appears that Oliver did not marry Jessie.
does anyone know how Brenda died?
@ Steve, Prosper was advertising from the address with the number on the Rubaiyat book ….tbh i really do not know why the police concentrated their efforts on the wife and not on him especially since he was known as the town crook. Frankly it stinks of a cover up
@ misca
Maybe Beverley is Ernest and Jessie’s daughter? Did they get married in 1942, perhaps because she was pregnant and then left with Oliver? Maybe Ruby adopted Beverley and Brenda because that’s what widows who didn’t remarry used to do… and maybe that’s why Doff was the one who took care of Eliza Amelia in 1946 until her death… childless women… only useful to look after the elders. There are many possible candidates for Beverley, impossible to know which one if she married or is still alive!
It is interesting that the 1940s generation of life-cover with door-to-door salesmen it seems Carl didn’t have a life-policy to pay for his funeral but Roy did (I was told!). I was also told that Brenda was left a considerable amount of money but perhaps she blew it all on crazy ideas for businesses. But again, It is strange that at that point of her wealth she wasn’t hounded by life-insurance salesmen. But it seems Dorothy Jean Robertson may have started one.
Before anyone says – perhaps they did just no-one knew about them – they would have unclaimed money on:
https://moneysmart.gov.au/find-unclaimed-money
There was a Brenda June Webb with over $1.
and:
ROBERTSON, DOROTHY JEAN (Owner: ROBERTSON DOROTHY JEAN) $43.30 JALNA DARLINGTON COLONIAL MUTUAL LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY LIMITED
@ David Morgan
Wrong Brenda, she was Brenda Therese Lesley Webb then Mullin. As for Dorothy the date interest paid was/is usually the person’s birthday so probably not her.
Steve H: though originally announced with some fanfare, Hendrickson seemed to have been a false lead, alas. And I suspect Abbott had got himself confused in the Q&A with poor old Leslie Wytkin (the other ROK finder).
As to the reason for the slip, or the presence of the ROK in the car, or whether we have truthful accounts etc, I don’t know – I’ve certainly speculated in the past (e.g. that perhaps the ROK was on the car all along, etc), but it’s extremely murky.
Sorry, it seems all of them have the same date… there’s also a Charles Webb, last address 226, Brunswick st, Fitzroy.
So… do we start looking for Doff in WA or is Darlington, near Sydney?
@Nick…if Carl owned the car in the past it might have been
Pat –
“Maybe Beverley is Ernest and Jessie’s daughter?”
I have wondered the same thing and continue to look for her in electoral rolls for both of them. I’m starting to wonder if she married early or died early. I have also tried with various combinations of last names (including maiden names) and have had no luck yet.
@em
re- Brenda’s death
I was told but I’d rather the person who told me – told you. Let’s say she died relatively young and not of illness.
@Pat – haven’t been following the thread, so apologies if this isn’t relevant (not sure where Darlington fits in), but there’s a suburb Darlington in Adelaide (down South). Not sure it’s exact history (and whether it existed so early – Wikipedia seems to confuse it with a Darlington elsewhere in the world – although it seems to have had a post office in 1953), but I’d imagine it might have started as services for people travelling South to Victor Harbor/Cape Jervis along (Main) South Road.
In terms of proximity to Somerton, it’s a few suburbs South East. Again not sure on exact history of the roads there, but it may have been the best route to Noarlunga (I think Pruzinski had a Noarlunga link) given I *think* Brighton Rd became Ocean Boulevard and ran as far as Marino (but I think Lonsdale Rd is a more recent extension).
Addendum (I read a little more)….”Jalna” (in Australian terms) might a yoghurt company that dates to about the 1960s (I think in Vic, but not sure whether they might connect to a ‘Darlington’ somewhere) – which is just within the lifetime of that unclaimed money (it dates to 1960), but it’s a bit odd that you’d use a factory as an address….
Addendum2: Darlington seems a common name – suburb in Sydney, outer suburb of Perth, and town in Victoria (nowhere near the Jalna factory). Wonder whether “JALNA” is something else mis-transcribed from horrible handwriting….
@Pat Suspect Brunswick St Charles Webb is different (they also have an unclaimed money record dating to 1965 (It might not be impossible that it’s from a much older fund, but I think it’s quite unlikely).
WEBB, CHARLES (Owner: WEBB CHARLES) $15.40 226 BRUNSWICK STREET FITZROY RESOLUTION LIFE AUSTRALASIA LIMITED (FORMERLY AMP LIFE LIMITED)
OTN: 1352871
Money from: RESOLUTION LIFE AUSTRALASIA LIMITED (FORMERLY AMP LIFE LIMITED)
Policy number: 245311
Type of money: Life insurance
Section: 216LIA (Unclaimed matured life insurance policy)
Year of return: 1965
@ misca
Her page on Wikitree https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Watkins-2970 says she had a daughter born in the 1930s and the owner has answered someone asking about Brenda and Beverly and he has confirmed that Beverly was her daughter.
Maybe Brenda’s husband married again, Bob Mullin, although on Ancestry it says he died in 2013, without source. This Bob Mullin died in 2003, his wife died in 2013.
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Bob-Mullin/29109638?referrer=myheritage
It’s not him, anyway, now we know that Brenda is the only ‘daughter’ of Ruby. If she was Carl’s daughter (which I don’t think she was) Angela said she didn’t have children although she was 38 when she died, plenty of time to have had children.
Commonwealth of Australia Gazette (National : 1901 – 1973) Qui 24 ago 1961 [Issue No.68]
Page 3144
LIFE INSURANCE ACT 1945-1961—UNCLAIMED
Robertson, Dorothy Jean, “Jalna”, Darlington.
Date when amount became due: 28.01.51
State in which policy registered: Western Australia
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/240890257/26006154
@ Pat, Angela, Misca et al
Congratulations on your research into Ruby and Brenda. I think you added an important and often very interesting next chapter in ways that demonstrated professionalism and sensitivity. I am struck by the work that volunteer genealogists and organisations such as Find a Grave do to help us make sense of the past and its people; also by groups such as St Vincent de Paul and the Bookmakers League who have ensured that people’s lives and deaths are given an empathetic sense of memory and respect.
Pat –
In searching for a Beverley on the Gledhill (Rachel Winifred, John Ivor’s second wife) side, I found one Beverly Agnes Gledhill born in 1945. She is listed as the daughter of Rachel’s uncle Leonard and his wife Francis Matilda Clifford.
It’s a bit odd because they had a daughter Dorothy in 1932, a son Ronald in 1936 and then Beverly in 1945.
Beverley Agnes Gledhill (born 1 Dec 1945) – on one tree is shown married to a John Douglas Jackson with two children; a boy and a girl. Without substantiating documents. Sadly, she died very young (at the age of 32) on 19 August 1978.
The tree I found this on has a picture of her tombstone that reads as follows:
“In loving memory of Beverley Jackson, died 19th Aug 1978 Aged 32 years.
Beloved wife of John, Loving mother of Ross and Jennifer – In God’s care.”
I searched for a Beverly with Rachel’s maiden name in the event that while divorcing her first husband and marrying her second, she might have had a child; with it perhaps being in limbo as to who the father might have been.
Does anyone know who Lesmah Mary Rich Gavey (nee Blashki) parents are?
https://www.geni.com/people/Lesmah-Gavey/6000000187797360828
Thanks in advance for any help
Peter –
I believe they are Hyman Albert Blashki (1887-1961) and Stella Maud Hearn Collins (1887 – 1950).
Lesmah married John Ivor’s son (namesake) with Jessie LeSuere…John Ivor in 1950.
Peter –
“Ted” was alive and mentioned in Joseph’s obituary in 1951. I have him Edward (Ted) Joseph Garvey born marrying a Kathleen Mary Mulcahy with at least two children (Anita and Julie). He becomes a bank manager and his daughter Julie also goes into banking.
Milongal: my almost negligable decemination of German as she is spoke tells me that your ‘Jalna’ that seems to connect somehow with long forgotten Carl Webb, converts well enough to ‘burn’ in English. Jalna, amongst other things was a well known stud race horse in Australia with long German blood lines. NB: See Jalna Vale Stud, Victoria.
@pat,
The Jalna reference I assume is a company product name. There are 3 Jalna street names around Perth but it may also relate to a popular series of books. Perhaps just a random name picked by their marketing department that was popular with women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalna_(novel_series)
@john Sanders
You suggested some time ago you thought the Dorothy & Carl marriage certificate ‘could be fake’ I wondered what provoked that line of thought – knowledge, research, training or suspicion?
I did wonder whether Carl being married entitled him to war-time accommodation and it was a cynical ploy to have somewhere to live and that he never lived with Dorothy. She was running rent-a-bride. Her divorce document was just imaginative writing like her newspaper competition entry. None of her later family seems to have seen Carl. A quick trip to the registry office and he had identity documentation again.
Jalna may have been a farm or property name – from Polish- “Yalna”. The Jalna yogurt was named after the founder – Simon Goldman’s family farm. There is also a Jalna farm in Brookton WA, about an hour from Darlington, which is an outer suburb of Perth.
Clive: Tibor Kaldor was only 5′ 6″ prone and not the 5′ 8″ by your reckoning; So didn’t take up too much of the slab at West Terrace. It’s the little things that count mate!
I agree with Jo, “Jalna” is probably the name of a farm, maybe the ‘colony’ that Doff was supposed to be living at some point? Jalna is also a Hindu name, so it could be a sort of yogi, sannyasi thing?
I have found a Jalna in WA (coordinates) in this website http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/how/newproducts/images/cr_sites_alpha.txt
If you copy and paste the coordinates on Google it will show a farm at York-Williams Rd, Jelcobine WA 6306.
Now I am going to try to find this Dorothy on MyHeritage before my Plus whatever subscription is over. I have checked the other names on the life insurance company and they all have died (or ‘disappeared`) before 1961, probably not ‘our’ Doff.
There is a Dorothy Jean Robertson living at Leithdale rd, Darlington, Swan, Moore, WA in the 1949 electoral rolls. She either moved to the Jalna farm near Brookton or worked there or at one of the yogurt’s company also called Jalna.
And in 1943 she lived with Doreen Tean Robertson, clerk, at the same address, so probably not our Doff.
Does anyone have access to newspapers.com? Brenda Webb is mentioned twice. I don’t know if it is our Brenda though.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/122415588/?fbclid=IwAR0xac8yWC8aZmOlpY1VwCJw8aPMG7yyFIhIHt74wumca0KB36nH9ce9-gY
Publication:The Age Location:Melbourne, Victoria, Victoria, AustraliaIssue Date:Tuesday, September 23, 1958 Page:Page 13
David Morgan –
The car theft ring has been floated around a lot here over the years; also with respect to Prosper. There are others on here that are able to speak to it much more knowledgeably than me but, without question, it’s a possibility. @em’s comment about how the ROK could have been left behind in a re-sale is also interesting.
@em – re: Brenda’s death.
Sadly, Brenda took her own life. There was no mention of any pre-existing medical conditions on the death record.
@Pat – re: The Age, 23 Sep 1958. This is the probate notice for Ruby Stella Webb.
“AFTER fourteen clear days application will be made to the Supreme Court of Victoria that Probate of the Will dated Thirteenth day of March 1958 of RUBY STELLA WEBB late of 3 Elm Avenue Elsternwick in the said State Widow deceased be granted to ERIC NORTH PARRY Engineer and NEREDA PARRY his wife both of 26 Chertsey Street Merrylands in the Sate of New South Wales the Executors named in the said Will.”
I purchased a copy of Roy Webb’s marriage record to see if Carl was one of the witnesses. Roy and Ruby were married on 20 Nov 1933 at the Presbyterian Church in Malvern. The witnesses were Eileen Gorman and Charles Edward Allsop (one of Joseph Gavey’s old associates). Roy was working as a bread carter, and Ruby was a nurse.
….oh Brenda 🙁 That made me so sad. What a cursed family line …..her adoptive brother Eric , his wife who also died leaving her boys orphans , one who died a year after Brenda at 25 ……so sad
@Angela
Thanks a lot. Poor Brenda…
Merrylands is near Westmead, where Brenda lived in 1972 with her husband, right? Do you have any new information about him? And I suppose nothing else has come to light about her biological father? I had this crazy idea that she could be Roy’s daughter with a woman from Singapore and that Carl went there to bring her to Australia and Ruby adopted her (her DOB could actually be the day she was registered). If only we had a photo…
I have found three electoral rolls where Andrew Arthur Ernest (Ernie) Gorman is living with a Julia Eileen Gorman. One in 1931, 1936 and 1937. He married Jessie in 1942 so, it’s hard to tell if this is his sister or a wife.
There is a 1943 listing for her and she is no longer living with Ernest. She is a waitress and living alone.
Angela –
Thanks for sharing this information. Does her death certificate provide any information as to whether or not she had children?
@Pat, if John Bernard Mullin is the right guy , which i think is, he had a sister Jean Violet Thornton dod 2014 with living relatives if that helps somehow….
@ Pat
I have put a call out on the Elwood High School ex students’ Facebook group for any photographs and memories of Brenda. If she went to the local government primary school (Elstenrwick Primary, opposite Dorothy’s house) most of the students there would also have gone on to Elwood High School (now College, my daughters are students there). She may have gone to Elwood as a twelve year old, at the beginning of 1958, the school opened to its first students in 1957. It’s a long shot…
Thanks guys! You rock!
Quoting myself…
Pat on October 5, 2022 at 12:39 am said:
@misca,
Thanks, now that makes sense.
Do we have a place for Carl aka Charles Webb in the 1941 electoral rolls? Is this him? Could this be his address before moving to 274 Domain rd with Doff? There’s no other Webb (that I could see) living at the same address.
Division: Carlton
Subdivision: Edward
5909 Webb, Charles 226, Glenlyon rd. N. 11, fitter, M
I’ve just noticed that 226 Glenlyon rd. East Brunswick is listed as the address of John Russell Keane’s Mobilization Attestation Form, dated 16 Aug 1940, which means that the Lost ad published on 5 Aug 1940 was probably posted by him, Gerald or Carl.
I know Nick has mentioned this was Gerald’s adress on 26 Dec 1940 (Boxing Day) when he was a witness for Roy Webb’s will, but now we know they were definetely living there in August when the ad was published.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204402393?searchTerm=FW5649
LOST, bet. E. Bruns. and city, Wallet, con-
taining notes and travelling certificate, work-
ing man. £2 reward. 226 Glenlyon-rd., E.
Brunswick. FW5649.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6623569
It is quite a coincidence that John Bernard Mullin of Victoria died falling from a train.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168453086?searchTerm=%22john%20bernard%20mullin%22
and a 1920 one a railway employee
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4594497?searchTerm=%22john%20bernard%20mullin%22
and a 1910 one run over by a train – Mullins
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76909653?searchTerm=%22john%20mullin%22%2C%20railway
and other people Mullin(s) porters etc witnesses to railway accidents.
@ Jo,
I think the ‘travelling certificate” could be Gerald’s. Maybe he needed one for his trips to New Zealand and who knows where with J.C. Williamson’s troupe?
misca on October 10, 2022 at 5:09 am said:
Pat –
In searching for a Beverley on the Gledhill (Rachel Winifred, John Ivor’s second wife) side, I found one Beverly Agnes Gledhill born in 1945. She is listed as the daughter of Rachel’s uncle Leonard and his wife Francis Matilda Clifford.
It’s a bit odd because they had a daughter Dorothy in 1932, a son Ronald in 1936 and then Beverly in 1945.
Beverley Agnes Gledhill (born 1 Dec 1945) – on one tree is shown married to a John Douglas Jackson with two children; a boy and a girl. Without substantiating documents. Sadly, she died very young (at the age of 32) on 19 August 1978.
The tree I found this on has a picture of her tombstone that reads as follows:
“In loving memory of Beverley Jackson, died 19th Aug 1978 Aged 32 years.
Beloved wife of John, Loving mother of Ross and Jennifer – In God’s care.”
I searched for a Beverly with Rachel’s maiden name in the event that while divorcing her first husband and marrying her second, she might have had a child; with it perhaps being in limbo as to who the father might have been.
_________________________________
I have been thinking about this, and I think Brenda could have been the daughter of Rachel Winifred Evelyn (Eveline) Gledhill with John William Ivor Joseph Gavey, because she wasn’t divorced from Edward John Williams in 1946, but given the 3 years necessary for divorce proceedings on habitual cruelty (both married again in 1949 with the respective ex-spouses!) they were probably already separated, but a child could have been a problem and sister Ruby was all alone…
What has strike me is the fact that Brenda had 2 middle names (Therese Lesley), same as Rachel (Winifred Evelyn). Ruby and Ivor had 3, Ruby was Emily Ruby Stella and John Ivor was John William Ivor Joseph.
Rachel and John Ivor had 8 children, no fertilily problems! Ruby, on the other hand, had been married for 7 years without having children.
Even if it was Roy who had fertility issues, in 1946 she was 40 years-old, so it’s highly unlikely that Brenda was her biological daughter.
Maybe the Webbs didn’t have a congenital or inherited fertiliy issue, because both Russell and Freda had children, but Doris only had one and a stillbirth and Gladys, Roy and Carl had none. Maybe it was something environmental that got worse with time.
Oops, John Ivor had 4 not 3 names! Sorry Nick.
@ Jo,
I have been trying to find Nurse Hannah Mitchel’s death register or grave.
According to excellent podcaster Michael Adams (Forgotten Australia, Forgotten Oz on FB) she died in Melbourne in 1940 without an obituary.
She was born in Cheshire in 1877, Hannah Elizabeth Margaret Lloyd Thomas.
She married Arthur Marsden in 1895 in Liverpool and had a daughter, Dorothy.
Arthur died and she remarried Irishman John Joseph Mitchell in 1903 at Walton, S. Mary Church, Liverpool.
They had 4 children: Margaret ‘Queenie’ (1904), Patricia (1906), John Joseph (1909) and David Alexander (1911).
John Josephs (father and son) and David Alexander’s files are available on NAA.
The interesting thing about them is thatl all of them married in 1939, just before Hannah Mitchel’s death in 1940.
Margareth x Ronald James Turnbull Young (Vic)
Patricia x William Edward Kirwan (Vic)
John Joseph x Alice Corban (Vic)
David Alexander x Alice Elizabeth Lewis (in NSW, with 2 different marriage certificates!)
John Joseph senior died in the war (1917) and Hannah married Nicolas Frank Bonfiglio in 1919. His obituary is available online here https//oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/bonfiglio-frank-16118
They had a tumultuous marriage (widely covered on Trove)
Another interesting thing is that Hannah’s address in Melbourne ws 4 Burnley St, North Richmond througout her trials notices, including many ads offering her services and boarding house/rest home, but her son John Joseph’s addresses on his military files are 3 Burnley St, 2 Burnley St and 1 Burnely St. (typos or maybe because the house occupied many plots, it had 14 bedrooms!).
On David Alexander’s military files (he became a captain!) his mother’s (‘E. Mitchell’) address at one point (not sure if it was 1934 or 1940, he enlisted twice) was 60r Nicholson Street, North Fitzroy, which is a 6 min walk to 226 Glenlyon Rd!
There are many ads with the Burnely St. Richmond address, ‘all cases successfully treated’ , ‘with, without Dr.’ by Nurse Mitchell… and a ‘Marmon Tourer 1924, good condition’ in 1931.
There’s an ad for furniture in 1937 at 4 Burnely St., Richmond, so I’m thinking Hannah moved to 60r Nicholson St. around that time.
Finally…
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
Sat 26 Aug 1939
Page 33
Advertising
AGENTS PLEASE NOTE.— Massive semi-modern
Brick Villa, 4 Burnley St.. Richmond, with
drawn from Sale. Sold by PODMORE BROS. (in
conjunction Mitchell & Co. 31 Bridge Rd..
Richmond. J2809, J1578. Private, XW2775.
So I suppose she moved to 60r Nicholson St, North Fitzoy/Brunswick East in 1939 and live there until she died in 1940, just around the corner of 226 Glenlyon Rd where Carl, Gerald, Freda and John Russell were living.
Now, off to investigate Mitchell & Co!
@Poppins,
It would be useful to have the names of immediate neighbours of the Webb family members at key times from electoral roles. so if they lived at 52 blackwood then 51 and 53 would be useful to know when Roy lived there. People in those days lived in each other’s houses quite a lot – borrowing sugar or sharing gossip over the fence. Sometimes they even worked in the same factory or office.
David Morgan: beg to differ but, in the forties Assie subutbanites didn’t mix too much with neighboors, mainly for fear that most bludging suger borrowers were likely be heathens or worse still goddam caffolics. Thats why they all uster stick glass shards atop their seven foot six paling separation fences in days of yore.
@David, the Sands directory lists the neighbours, see imgur, for 1940 and 1955. Their immediate neighbours are Nos.54 and 56 – their house is on a corner with Walnut Street – and across the road is 59 and 61 Blackburn. Let me know if you want me to look up occupation of anyone else. I couldn’t see anyone else living at 52 after Roy went to war.
https://imgur.com/a/JPeMSMs
Resurrecting an old discussion… Who is Mary Delaney?!
I have no idea, but Michael Thomas Mullin married Beverley Dawn Delaney in 1958 at Wollongong, NSW.
Is he related to John Bernard Mullin, Brenda Webb’s husband? Is she related to Mary Delaney who was buried at the same grave as Brenda?
MISCA, where are you? Help!
What happened to all those awesome commenters (in alphabetical order, sorry if I missed someone) Angela, Catherine, Em, Furphy, Jamie, misca, milongal, Peter Davidson, Steve H?
Were they suffering from long Covid or what I like to call post-Covid blues and now they have recovered from it?
I miss you people!
Too right Pat, irksome commenters aplenty gone MIA, eg. Katie Dee who took the J off JEstyn and made you her scapegoat, Menstrual Janet the bleeding realist, Glen with the handicap, Jamie who was no sufferer of fools such as we, plus a host of other Keane Mary Delaney hunters. If I was you, ain’t you glad I’m not? and I was wishing to get Misca back on board, think I’d try talking to a mirror to see if that helped..
@ Pat
You know I have tried to appreciate your contributions to this site as best as I can, deservedly, while also trying to suggest ways it can improve in terms of going more into the most immediately relevant and not too marginal matters, focusing on things you have yourself found, yet abandoned because their implications did not fit your preferred narrative (such as your insightful catching of that note in Balint’s article, or the article you shared about how divorce action claims were highly doctored during those times, missing one of its more important paragraphs which I tried to bring to your attention).
I generally support your call for some folks who have left the site on their own to come back. However, your inviting folks who you know full well will come back and through their verbal abuse at me in particular (and others), starting new cycles of what Nick Pelling may like to call Fraking! defies logic.
If you really wish to know why some good folks have left this site, you may ask its moderator, who lately has actually been acting more prudently, it seems (never guaranteed, though, from past experience, but I am keeping my fingers crossed, continuing my long tradition of giving him the benefit of doubts). I had prepared a response to his brief yet offending remark about my “hilarious trolling” comment about his gamification of this site (of which that brief characterization itself must be a Fraking! expression), but if necessary again, I will share it sometime, one way or another.
On occasions you have called that someone back, knowing fully well that that his relentless verbal abuse of me will happen again, under our dear moderator’s watch, who may continue as in the past sit and enjoy the game. Others like John Sanders have coped with the matter in their own ways (and I am sure he also has interpreted your calling back your favorite end of the list contributor as a start of another cyle to be unleashed), but I have tried the best I can to stay away from that person’s wrath, going the opposite way of appreciating anything I have found to be helpful in his findings. Yet, when the person unleashes his wrath on me simply because he can’t tolerate my different or critical remarks, considering himself the defender-in-chief of Derek Abbott on this site, you remain silent on the sidelines, and then complain about “men” on this site fighting each other, even raising the eyebrow of the one you list at the end of your list, alphabetized not to hurt his feelings being named at the end.
I realize you may be frustrated about not finding information that support your narrative. I do appreciate your trying to be scientific in sharing the never ending generational data details about folks in the Somerton man case, but I think you are not fully appreciating your own findings at times, some of which are actually very important. Ironically, since you leave no records unturned, and yet not having found more information about DJR post-1955 (who I am also inclined to believe lived on, though still not 100%), should itself be very significant narratively, but you do not see the other side of the implications of what you have found, unfortunately, ending up being frustrated about others, or yourself, not progressing in proving your narrative, and consequently being at times condescending about those who still hung around to contribute to this site, trying to do their best, despite the serious problems with its moderations in the past that in my view explain to a significant degree why we have seen good contributors to this site having left it for better things in life.
Behrooz: The antics of charlatans ie., Steve H. of Bristol & Pat o rato from Braxil don’t fase me in the least. I relish challenging my slow wit against their combined hair brained attempts to bring me to heel, and by so doing serve their Facebook master’s will. Guess I could be more non combative in some of my put downs of others they being a trifle overdone I’ll own, though I’m sure most can see them as being part of my bon homme persona and hit back in kind. Never to critisize the honest opinions of those one might disagree with; conversely if one sees a head one doesn’t trust or like then kick it; that be my creed.