Ever since a Cipher Mysteries commenter noticed that a C Webb seemed to be linked to Swinburne Technical College, there’s been a lot of active discussion here about whether or not we have a photograph of our man. Though I’ll try to summarise the discussion below, note that I haven’t yet had a reply from the librarians / archivists at Swinburne (I asked whether they had student records from the 1920s, and if so if there was a Carl Webb listed), so this identification still falls short of 100%.
Football Crazy
The starting point is essentially this: that given that Carl Webb (b. 1905) is listed in the Victoria electoral rolls up to 1939 as an electrical fitter, he must have learnt his trade somewhere. So where?
Commenter Furphy kicked off the whole process with a comment noting that there was a “C Webb” of basically the right age in a picture of the Swinburne Technical College U-16 football team, Minor Premiers 1921. Though this helpfully lists the players’ names (“D Whitfield, K Millar, A Alderson, J Wilson, R James, R Hulse, J Scott, C Webb, A Mahsall, A Dubberlin, H Ainsworth, C Oriander, T Anderson, F Ward, A West, W Hunt, B Stockfield, W Taylor, G Wilson, H Derrick, Sportsmaster D C Chat”), it doesn’t actually say who is who.
Interestingly, we know from Trove (found by commenter Pat from Brazil) that Carl Webb was still playing football in October 1930:
During football playing on Show Day, Mr. C. Webb, of the bakery, fell and again injured his leg, thus placing him on the resting list.
However, Swinburne Technical College is in Central Melbourne and the Webb family home was in Camperdown (1916/1918), then Malvern (64 Glenferrie Rd in 1922) then Oakleigh (50 Kangaroo Rd in 1924/1925/1926/1927) then Springvale (Springvale Rd from 1928 onwards), so it’s not an obviously perfect fit. Yet Charles Webb doesn’t appear on the electoral rolls at Oakleigh, not even for 1927 (you had to be over 21 years to vote): his first entry is in Springvale (as an “electrical fitter”) in 1928. So while it seems a reasonable guess that he was living in the family home during that period, it’s not 100% certain.
Furphy was also far from sure that any of the footballers’ faces strongly resembled the Somerton Man (though admittedly 27 years older and deceased). All the same, it’s a great starting point, one that begged to be advanced further…
Electrical Fitter
According to the Camperdown Herald, 01 Nov 1926 (again found by Pat), Carl Webb (Russell Webb’s youngest brother) was still “going to school” then, which I think fits the pattern of Carl Webb training as an electrical fitter in 1926 rather well:
Russell R .Webb, baker, Camperdown, said his father was suffering from an injury to the knee. He had two brothers, both going to school. There were three sisters, one was married. Exemption till November 30.
And so it wasn’t a huge surprise (to me, at least) when Furphy quickly found a different reference to C Webb at Swinburne, in The Swinburnian, vol. 1, no. 1, December 1922, p. 8:
“Engineering.—Day Course: H. R. Corr, L. A. Clegg, A. E. Dubberlin, A. O. Griffiths, A. G. Marshall, H. T. Popple. Evening Course: W. H. Sydserff, W . G. Gosbell, J. G. Endersbee, C. Webb. ”
Matching Other Players
This was the point where commenter Behrooz had the smart idea of cross-referencing the faces in the photo against other Swinburne photos. Other photos are accompanied by lists of names in order, which makes it very easy to see who is who. For example, this 1922 photo has “A Marshall” on the right end of the middle row:
Similarly, this 1923 image has A Marshall and G Wilson at the left-hand end of the middle row:
So here’s A Marshall in 1922:
And here’s A Marshall and G Wilson in 1923:
With this, I think we can identify G Wilson in the original photo as sitting in the front row (albeit with a slightly shorter hair cut):
And also A Marshall (front row, right end):
At Last, The Photo of Carl Webb (maybe)
However, even though the comparisons are really interesting, I disagree with Behrooz when he then tries to force a zigzag numbering onto the original list of names. Rather, I suspect that commenter Rena was correct to visually identify the footballer on the left end of the middle row as ‘our’ C Webb. For me, it’s the ears & nose that really do it, but perhaps you’ll disagree:
Any other opinions? Or any other Swinburne Technical College photos that prove this wrong?
Interesting! There is the Singapore Marshall name and the Marshall Files. I pulled up most of the Marshall Files on the wayback machine and there was mention of a ‘Carl Webb’ on there. Whilst it’s really positive that there is an identification for the Somerton Man there is something that has been going on behind the scenes for years. Again for some reason people didn’t want to identify him whatsoever. It’s really really SAD!. I don’t even think that Jessica Thomson was involved and she was set up as a smokescreen or diversion. I just can’t put my finger on it!
Was there mention of a Bank phone number being on the book?. Hopefully the Police will follow that up as they have a name. Dormant accounts are well documented and records are stored for them.
Swinburne is/was/has been a technical college – an alternative to university for people less inclined to academic than to practical studies. Sounds as if that’s the sort of thing he was studying, so it is quite reasonable that students might travel a fair distance to attend. Not like primary or secondary public school (public school = government-funded school in Australia; private schools are what are called public schools in England)
Nick: that lad can’t be Carl. Carl had attached ear lobes.
Thanks for the hat-tip, Nick.
I would not be surprised to find that the relevant record/s from Swinburne are now held by TAFE Victoria. (TAFE being the Australasian acronym for “technical and further education”.) That is … I seem to recall reading somewhere a few days ago that student records from Swinburne’s days as a technical college are not part of the records of the current Swinburne University. Which would he understandable, considering that the original institution was more like what Australians would now call a high school: it had students as young as 13 and did not offer degree level courses.
Looking once again at Rena’s nominee, I can see similarities not only in the ears, but also the eyebrows, nose and that Mona Lisa half smile. However, Pat did, independently, nominate the lad in the front row, far right, whom I also thought a strong candidate.
(fwiw) I would be both chuffed and amused if SM’s muscular calves and well-developed chest turn out to be a legacy of him playing as a rover or midfielder in Australian rules matches during the 1920s and ’30s.
Can someone try one of those age progression apps to see how these lads would look like? I’m not techy savvy.
Your right Pat about the ears.
Pat:
https://ibb.co/1LsVBSN
The ‘under 14 football team of 1921’ shows 20 players and only 18 names on the caption… https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg
Furphy: thanks for the TAFE tip. I wouldn’t be surprised if the muscular calves were from cycling to Swinburne and back every day. 😉
@Glen: that’s great, thanks! Can you try it with the lad in the front row far left?
Glen! Please show me the Marshall Files.
Pat
https://ibb.co/yYcQgqP
PROV also has examination results for the Swinburne Technical College Engineering Department for the 1920s, which I think would very probably give enough of the details we would like to have to know one way or the other:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/BC4AF0C3-F7E5-11E9-AE98-53D8EEBB4713
@Glen: is that from the football pic?
Peter Love wrote a book on the history of Swinburne: “Practical measures: 100 years at Swinburne”, Swinburne University of Technology, Hawthorn, Vic., 2007, 135 pp, ISBN/ISSN 9780864588401
Nick: the book https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/c9071699-0c64-4133-a259-745b426b273a/1/swinc9071699.pdf
I’m afraid there’s not much about that particular time.
Pat: thanks for that… though my expectations were fairly low. :-/
In terms of the commute, Swinburne’s main campus (which from what I can gather is the original site of the Eastern Suburbs Technical College which became Swinburne) is in Hawthorn, which is a neighbouring suburb to Malvern. It looks like there’s only about 5km between the Malvern address and Swinburne, which would be an easy commute either on a bike, or on the tram down Glenferrie Rd.
The timing of the Webb’s being in Malvern would then be consistent with Carl choosing Swinburne as a convenient place to study (or even the Webb’s moving to Malvern to make the commute more feasible).
I wonder if he could be in this photo?
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/6cae8dcd-5826-43f8-b046-7f8303139dc3/1/pho014i0002.jpg
I can see G. Wilson, A. Marshall and a couple of other lads from the football team. What about the one at the top? He looks like the one I think is C.Webb…
SCHOLARSHIP WINNERS FOR 1921.
Engineering.—Day Course: H. R. Corr, L. A. Clegg, A. E. Dubberlin, A. O. Griffiths, A. G. Marshall, H. T. Popple.
Evening Course: W. H. Sydserff, W. G. Gosbell, J.G.Endersbee,C.Webb.
W. H. Sydserff: William Harold Sydserff, 1907-1970, cremated at Springdale Botanical Cemetery. How could he not ‘know’ who was he SM from the newspapers?
W. G. Gosbell, William Gordon Gosbell, 1906-1994, born and died in Victoria.
J. G. Endersbee, John George Endersbee, 1906 (Malvern)-1992. Lived in Lower Mitcham.
Nickpelling:
Thanks for the post and opening this new inquiry. I understand your hesitation about which one is A. Marshall. I had also thought of the same as you have. But, hairstyle in one of the photos for A. Marshall is absolutely similar to the one on left bottom row.
My point was if there is any order in the listing matching the seating arrangement, the zig-zag-down reading is the only one that places G. Wilson (about whom we have no doubt) in exactly correct place in the order. I think those who published the photo on Swinburne site, basically read the names as a columnar order, as the listing in the photo itself is set up. A. Marshall being on bottom right means the listing in relation to seat positions is random, basically. I doubt it is random, and the only logical ordering is the zig-zag-down from top left, which means C. Webb is the second from the right, middle row.
Your choice of the one on left middle row is random (I assume), and if we wish to be random, I would go with Pat’s initial choice actually, about the one on left bottom row, given the ears; this is the one I was suggesting was A. Marshall.
But in all this, we are assuming this C. Webb is the young TSM (so wondering about ear or face matches), which is still a big assumption. In fact, one use of identifying this young C. Webb correctly CAN BE, potentially, ruling out that Carl Webb is TSM, if the ears clearly don’t match. That can be also a huge finding.
I have aged my choice, and also Pat’s choice, comparing it to the good TSM photo. I have also made Pat’s choice, which I think can still be A. Marshall, happier using photoshop. The ears I think can go either way, given aging and head on bed state of TSM, but closer to Pat’s choice. Here is the link of the aging I did: https://www.okcir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/TSM-CW-Comparison.png
What I find most interesting are the lips matching with TSM, in both options, but specially in relation to my original choice (second from right, middle choice. But as far as nose goes, my choice seems to fail, unless aging changed things as far as nose goes.
Hopefully your inquiry from Swinburne will put this to rest. If you find any in the picture to be 100% “our” C. Webb and features don’t clearly match with TSM, such as the ears, that can potentially put an end to the speculation to C. Webb being TSM. If they answer and we find a clear match, that also can be an important finding. It is good that you are encouraging all to be open to various choices.
Hello Nick et al
A friend of mine is a lecturer at Swinburne. I think I’m having dinner with him on Saturday. Are there things he might be able to help move along with their archivists or librarians?
I agree with Charlotte Webb – access to the Hawthorn campus would be very easy from Malvern (tram or bicycle).
The Camperdown reference is from 1916, when Carl’s brother sought an exemption from service in WWI, at the height of conscription debates.
Confirmation bias or ‘scenes we’d like to see’ seems to have become all the rage with enthusiastic punters, egged on by management to boot. If’n my eyesight were Keaner I’d be right in there with the rest vieing to be first to spot my very own C. Webb that compares most favourably with a hopefully original deceased body on slab.
@Behrooz – I don’t think the ordering of the names relates to the position they sit in – I think it’s more likely to be ordered by position they play, or length of time at the club or perhaps the number they wore – or even age. Every footy photo I’ve ever had taken the photographer fiddles around with where everyone is sitting to create some sort of balance (I always thought it was roughly Tallest in the centre back and then alternating left, right as we get shorter – although I’ll admit there’s a few in that team that don’t fit that pattern and when you have people seated maybe things are a bit different). The team list on the other hand looks like it’s pre-prepared – and I think even if they tried to map the player order to the list, I think there’s a high probability of getting it wrong. I’ve seen loads go wrong even when the list of people is added after the photo – so I wouldn’t put too much weight on mapping the list to the players.
NB: I also think finding 1 player in correct corresponding position when you compare the list is tenuous at best. If Math serves me right on a Monday morning, you could have something like 19 factorial (minus 1) combinations where 1 player is in the right position and not all of the others are
NB2: If Swinburne is like a TAFE what sort of age groups would you expect there? Someone who leaves in year 10 might fit an u16 footy team – but I was surprised to see the photo of an u14 team. A quick google suggests most states require students stay at school until at least 17yo – although generally if you have finished y10 and not turned 17 TAFE and similar (varies state to state what is similar) is ok. (so either things have changed a lot since then (which is certainly possible) or…..)
Nickpelling and Pat:
Judging from the sitting position of “S. Tucker” here https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/9d54a27c-0ef4-4a9a-8dfc-d93de92054b2/1/pho020i0014.jpg and comparing it with the one linked by Pat for under 14 players https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg , since it is clear the last one sitting on bottom right in Pat’s link is S. Tucker, it results in the zig-zag ordering not being necessarily a consistent way for sitting positions (beside the one linked by Pat missing two names).
So, this means, they may be sitting randomly even in the under 16 players photo. So, C. Webb can be any of them, except for G. Wilson being clearly identified. So, we are back to square one, sorry. Pat’s link for under 14 gave us a second chance to wonder about the order of sitting in the photos.
Sunraysia Daily (Mildura, Vic), Saturday 2 March 1935, page 10, Omar Kayyan
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265846069?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FS%2Ftitle%2F1585%2F1935%2F03%2F02%2Fpage%2F29759556%2Farticle%2F265846069
Scholarship Results Swinburne Technical College
Algebra Grade I Pass C?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4707512?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1922%2F02%2F02%2Fpage%2F417178%2Farticle%2F4707512
Jo: thanks for the offer! I’ve already asked the Swinburne librarians, and – from what I’ve read over the weekend – the Swinburne Library seems to have a ton of stuff relating to its Swinburne Technical College years. (And if that fails, there are still exam results in PROV for that period to be had.) So I’m optimistic they will be able to answer the question of whether their “C Webb” was indeed Carl Webb, though we’ll have to wait and see how much information about him they have. But if we get gatekeepered too much (you can never tell in advance), I’ll be sure to ask you to ask your friend for help. 😉
milongal: we may yet find different photographs from the period and be able to eliminate half (or more) of the faces, improving the odds sharply. Eliminating two of them is a start, regardless. 🙂
Austin Geoffrey Marshall, draftsman of Malvern was a Captain in the AIF and post war served with the BCOF in Japan. I’m following the thread best I can but not sure if Marshall helps the cause.
John S.,
I think your eyes are just fine. We havent been, I dont believe, given anything with which to match the SM with Webb visually. It seems if anything management has been doing everything to play this down. Does this have any connection with the current political “situations” in the world? Its hard to say. Label removal seems beyond necessity if this has anything to do with your mere average trollop. And all Ive got is precious time,
Until last month, Antero Bonifacio had no idea he was the missing link in solving one of South Australia’s most enduring mysteries.
So why has Antero Bonifacio been or Derek Abbott and his associates social media pages for the last 8 years?
Milongal,
“If Swinburne is like a TAFE what sort of age groups would you expect there?”
My understanding is that before WW2, a lot of tech colleges (if not all of them) included a kind of high school stream, focused on younger teens with an eye on trades. You’re right about the present situation: TAFE colleges now seldom have students under 18, and the average age is probably closer to 21/22. So yes, “things have changed a lot since then …”
I meant to say ‘On’ not ‘Or’
Milongal:
Thanks for your thoughts on the ordering issue. I agree with you, as I had already sent a note about zig-zag down not being necessarily consistently practiced with name-list-in-photo cases, and that one match with G. Wilson, as you also noted, must be a coincidence. Hopefully more matches and visits to Swinburne library will help eliminate other cases. The sitting is most likely just random. If from other sources we can match faces of non-Carl Webbs this will help, as Nickpelling said. But the effort is well worth it.
I would refrain from looking only at those with the right ears. It may turn out that, provided that this C. Webb is proven to be our Carl Webb, the photo ends up proving that Carl Webb is not TSM, if the photo is clear enough as far as ears go.
I am still skeptical about the DNA solution offered by the unofficial team. If the hair was enough to identify TSM’s DNA map, why did they push for exhuming the man all these years (and not be patient waiting for official results) and if they had a new technology to use the hair as a determinant, why did they not share it with the official team, or why did the official team, presumably consulting top exerts, are not finding even TSM’s body, let alone any hairs they already had, yet sufficient for comparison samples. New details about the unofficial team’s strategy basically revealed that they first followed the T. Keane clothing name lead, then found relatives on both sides, and then found a C. Webb without death time in the network; then they said T. Keane was a significant coincidence!? This does not make sense, as it’s like proving an assumption. Of course if you find folks on father and mother side, they will match at some point; the key question is if the hair samples were sufficient to do the triangulation, and for that we need to wait for the more sober official team findings for confirmation.
I am not ruling out Carl Webb being TSM, but the search strategy is problematic and sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me, so far. I think John Sanders had pointed this out as well and it is good to be skeptical about things in science. This is why the Swinburne photo can be a very interesting find.
Facial ID says the one sitting at the bottom left is Carl and none of the others. Find a super-recogniser and they will confirm it.
With regard to the matter of 13 to 15 year olds at Swinburne:
“Swinburne Junior Technical School opened within the Technical College in 1913. A Girls School was added in 1916, and both were accommodated in various buildings in the Burwood Road/William Street precinct in the years that followed. In 1969, there was a formal separation of the secondary school from the tertiary College of Technology, and the 12-17 year old boys and girls were located solely at 505 Burwood Road. ”
http://learningfromthepast.com.au/swinburne-technical-school/
K. Millar is “Keith Millar” who became a Cricketer later on. There is a rough photo that can be used to rule out others for him, perhaps. The zig-zag down iffy order would not work (3rd from top left), since it does not look like him in the newspaper.
Perhaps you can find a better picture for him. He was born in 1906 (by the way, C. Webb too was officially a 1906 born).
Here are the links:
https://www.tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Keith+Millar
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185060442?searchTerm=football%20swinburne
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185070999?searchTerm=football%20swinburne
Hi
maybe you are correct
I used https://facecomparison.toolpie.com/ for comparison of faces and its 99% match
I will check it with other face recognition too.
The one on the left bottom row looks like him a lot, in my opinion.
My initial choice for the guy on the left front row wasn’t based on his ears, although the attached lobe is relevant because it doesn’t change with aging. The feature that I think is the most important is his forehead, his frontal bone has the same shape as the SM’s, a bone that attain full proportions around late puberty.
Eyeballing it now, yes I agree. I dont know about the ears. So much younger and the one we have to compare it to has passed on. Very sad indeed. I want him to be accurately determined like everyone, to do him justice. I have no clue exactly what business he was up to at Somerton. No bias that I am aware. Dont they have body doubles for heads of states and such however?
This is a well established case to any noobs out there. I am fairly sure I read about it before Nick started talking about it here, though its definitely *his* thing. Someone made an off hand comment about it being mundane just like he thought the Voynich Manuscript would turn out, which I do consider (partially) my thing. These mysteries are not something that just turned up yesterday. There are reasons they have been troublesome friends. I am looking into the politics of the time, so I’m actually starting to think it through, like I hadn’t before.
The lower left one to clarify.
i used other software and they predict one on the left bottom is him with more than 85% similarity
i think https://facecomparison.toolpie.com/ is not correct because repeating gave me very low similarity.maybe i did something wrong.
@NP agree – my point was more that regarding a link between name order and position in photos….
Anywho, there’s an FB group “Wisden cricket” that has a reasonable picture of Millar – albeit from a much later time.
I’ve been comparing the photos and I think there’s something that doesn’t fit. The position of the ears in relation to the eyes. SM’s ears are set lower, but this could be an optical illusion as he is lying on an autopsy bed.
Dubberlin = Allen Edwin Dubberlin, carpentry student at Swinburne, b. 1907, died 1981 Box Hill. Married Jean Hilda Clapton 1943. Won the 440 yards and 880 yards in the 1922 Swinburne Technical College Sports Day. Which was nice.
But as for a separate photo? Not a hope, as far as I can see.
Carl Webb’s nephew John Russell Keane (1917-1943, son of his sister Freda married to Gerald T. Keane), who died as a WWII pilot in Ireland in 1943 (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Keane-1437), went to the St. Monica’s School (https://www.macs.vic.edu.au/SchoolInformation.aspx?School_ENumber=E1047), in Footscray.
It is possible that Carl Webb, having been born in Footscray too, had also gone to the same school for his primary schooling, unless it has been proven otherwise that he went elsewhere (if so, please correct me). If he went to that school, some records may be found there also for him. It is an old school and must keep archival records.
John Russell’s parents were clearly involved in Catholic church and related musical performances and events (even performing during the events leading to their marriage) (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152616041?searchTerm=%22Gerald%20keane%22). Carl Webb may have become interested in the arts and creative thinking, songs/poetry, and singing/dancing, in their association, visiting some Ballet Russe perfermonces, and even traveling with T. Keane to some (https://www.normantranscript.com/news/local_news/ballets-russes-archive-provides-glimpse-into-world-famous-dance-company/article_309ed107-cdb6-551e-b6fd-17261732196e.html).
Even if Carl Webb did not go to the Catholic primary school, however, it seems he was close enough to Freda and Gerald Keene family to be influenced by them, or at least take them into his life and death decision considerations, especially if they had experienced the loss of their Catholic son.
If he had had Catholic upbringing to some extent, he may have thought twice about committing suicide, given that in Catholicism it is seen as a great sin. However, if he chose to do so anyways for inevitable reasons (such as a terminal illness amid a series of sudden personal losses and tragedies, perhaps even loss of the chance to see for the last time a son he may have thought to be his with Jestyn, and in this DNA reductivism must logically give way for sound sociological reasoning), you may decide to do it as anonymously as possible.
I don’t think the theory of his being in Adelaide looking for his separated wife is logical at all, and the theory only serves to easily dismiss other plausible theories that do not fit an explanation. If that was the case, why would he not wear his wedding ring, nor have it with him, not his hand showing any sign of having worn it recently (if he was looking for Dorothy)? Yes, they were separated, and he did not wear the ring for a long while; but if he is actively seeking her to make up, why not have it with him? Why even look for her if he initiated the separation any ways, and Dorothy’s divorce notice did not go out until 1951. Why take a “T. Keane” name on a tie (for someone who has yet to be found to have used any other name but Gerald Keane in public) as a “coincidence” and throw away the baby of a millions-in-one rare tooth-ear matching coincidence with the bath water, overnight?
On one hand, this can be a factor giving Carl Webb ideas about carefully and creatively engineering a poetic suicide event in a public “dance of death” (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206895124?searchTerm=%22death%20poetry%22) theater, mysteriously fitted around the generationally energizing/electrifying instrument of a seemingly unsolvable poetic suicide code. (Electrical or electronic engineers these days seem to be also apt media and public opinion engineers). On the other hand, if your family is Catholic and not accepting of suicide, it may explain why some of them at least may have refrained from accepting the TSM as one of their own.
Just something to consider. It is still hard to accept that all of them would conspiratorially agree not to disclose TSM’s identity, especially his separated wife. But who knows, may be this can explain the silence of some of them, if Carl Webb ends up being TSM (which is still an unconfirmed hypothesis in my view).
In Nov. 18, 1948, someone committed suicide in a highly public manner in St. Peter’s Church: “SUICIDE IN CHURCH VATICAN CITY, Wednesday—An unidentified man committed suicide today in St. Peter’s Church by plunging from the inside of the cupola, 164 feet above the ground. The suicide desecrated the church which -was closed until the consecration in accordance with Catholic rites.” https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116546998?searchTerm=catholic%20suicide
Behrooz,
Would he as a Catholic marry in an Anglican Church? I’m not a religious person, so I have no idea if this is a stupid question.
I have been right through the MARSHALLFILES website and for the life of me I cannot find a reference to any ‘Carl Webb’ as was stated by a fellow earlier. Can anyone else find it and if so, what is it? What does it say?
The link between George Marshall’s death and Somerton’s is blindingly obvious. The Judaism is no coincidence. Both were murders – covered up – and the security services were clearly involved. Of the thousands who came forward to view the bust and proffer a suggestion as to identity of course the Webbs identified the bloke. They would have been told to pipe down or suffer a similar fate.
Don’t forget that a certain person in Adelaide put flowers & stones on
Somerton’s grave for many years after the infamous Jestyn was sent on a flaming chariot down into the fires of Hell, Heche-style. So we have another person in Adelaide who is also Jewish and knows the SM.
@ Pat
Great find re the Algebra result! Algebra would also be a good fit for a coding work environment if CW did answer the 1942 National Service call for Instrument Makers and those with experience of radio work (if he wasn’t already employed in this area). The timing of the National Service ad fits with the surge of signals and intelligence related work in the Domain area of South Yarra as the war in the Pacific intensified. I doubt there would be employment records as this was classified work (as per the Australian Special Wireless Group history – those involved had a to swear a sixty year oath of confidentiality). It may have been difficult to adjust to post war life and difficult to explain a missing employment history. CW may have lacked social capital and connections, many of his family had died, he may have needed to keep a low profile during the war years, he may have simply been cut loose once there was no further use for his skills. There is a resonance between this type of story and some of the themes within the Rubiayat of Omar Khyyam. He would have been very aware of the power of the old school tie, living opposite Melbourne Grammar School and and aware of the contrast with his earlier life of evening study, working and supporting his father’s bakery business. I’ve ventured into speculation here in an attempt to furnish Carl Webb with an empathetic biography! I respect your skills of finding good hard biographical evidence! I believe that the historical and sociological imagination are at their richest when history and sociology can remain clearly in the frame!
Can someone tech savvy try to enhance the quality of the photograph? I don’t have any software to do this, and I’m not willing to try an online tool. I think both the SM and my candidate (left front row) have a sort of crease/scar on their forehead, above their right eye (left in the photo). I have just used a magnifying tool and I’m inclined to think it’s there.
Nick Pelling:
Just in case, this here https://www.ancientfaces.com/person/allen-edwin-dubberlin-birth-1907-death-1981-austra/146668493 proves helpful regarding Dubberlin (you may have already seen it). There is more information about his parents and siblings. I could not still find any photos, but some login-required sites may have something.
Whence whither Derek’s DNA derivation detected in a marketing manager from Geelong? Antero Bonifacio. For want of better knowledge I’m assuming it goes back to the early US colonization of the Filipinnas and the Siatong Bag-Ongs of Anonang Baranga Province. Antero’s unidentified (Australian) gene descenant is most likely to be one Antero Ong Bonifacio 34/08 a sole trader from Caulfield. Backtracking as to when the unlikely DNA cultural/racial crossing occurred gets
nowhere though not long seeing that Ms. Fitzgerald took no time locating her host conveniently through Derek Abbott’s own Facebook page, so we’re reliably informed.
PS: name derivation researchers will no doubt point to Antero as being of Norse origins and based on the mythologcal giant Antero Vipunen, a prominent figure in Finlandish national legend ‘the Kalevala’ of which I agree with unreservedly.
I noticed in a few Trove articles from 1925 there was reference to Swinburne Juniors playing a game at Corio as an opener for the “league” game. And if you look at the main league back then, they did indeed play at Corio Oval.
So to find records of these games, it might help to know that these College games were curtain raisers for the main event in the VFL (Victorian Football League), or so it seems.
There was another competition called the VFA (Victorian Football Association), so I was curious to see which Swinburne was associated with.
These days it’s the AFL (Australian Football League), just for the curious!
ps. someone mentioned a photo with 20 players and 18 names. The 2 extras would be the interchange players. In the modern game they are actively swapped on and off the field, but back then I think it might be common to spend the whole game on the “bench”, and hence not get a name of the list.
Just to clarify: I actually picked the guy who is far left in the *front row*. So if “he” turns out to be the fellow who is far left in the middle row, I should get no credit for this. 🙂
A minor discovery in the form of a 1940 army record pic of “A. Stockfeld” – as it is spelt in the sign in the pic (no “i”). I’ve uploaded it to the link below – this time I put the original page alongside my slightly cleaned up version.
In fact, VX10626 Sgt Alan Hector Stockfeld, born 16 June 1905, East Camberwell (Vic.) appears to be the only Stockfeld to be found in the NAA records. (fwiw) Sgt Stockfeld was a POW, captured in 1941 at Kalamata, Greece, while attached to Blamey’s Aus I Corps HQ. Held at Stalag XVIIIA, XVIIIB & Stalag 383.
I can’t really see a close similarity between Stockfeld (1940) and our lads from the 1921 U/16 team. Perhaps I’m overthinking it; have a look for yourself.
https://ibb.co/gDx1H7x
Earth to Glen?? Earth to Glen??
You said you found the name Carl Webb on the MARSHALLFILES site. May we have details or are you keeping it so you can write a terrible fictionalised account of the story for an audience of brain dead morons?
I am very anxious as I have long had a vested interest in this matter.
Furphy: you’re right of course the similar names Stockfeld and Stockfield are not overly common especially with initials A. for Alan (Hector) and B. for who knows. Interesting about Alan your AIF POW is that he also signed up in 1918 giving his birth year as 1899 and got away with it by forging his parents signature. Lucky that hostilities ended before he was sent overseas and so was discharged accordingly.
John: Antero is the Italian name of the 19th pope and bishop of Rome: Saint Anterus.
Hi all,
I’ve been looking into the Swinburne archives and there is a ‘trove’ of images not yet mentioned on this blog; I think the website has a categorisation issue, as these images can be seen not through individual years of the 1920s, but rather through the decade ‘1920s’ option: https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/hierarchy.do?topic=a3eabe33-3ec1-4a82-8677-4ef0d8a4bd85&page=1
The four photographs below are where I cross-referenced some from the notorious football photo. While there are annoyingly no names, we can obviously use this additional visual material to compare to the football photo, and to similarities with SM.
Including the already identified G Wilson and A Marshall, I think I recognise 9 of the 20 from the football photo, in these others. Their links are:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/60987189-c967-49f2-a9a3-4f78f90823c4/1/pho019i0011.jpg – (Junior Boys (01) – 1920)
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/a8789c73-8dce-4816-b010-383eb99d49a4/1/pho019i0014.jpg – (Junior Boys (04) -1920)
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/28d2ecff-42af-4d38-ac08-e47f2c00a192/1/pho020i0009.jpg – (Competitors in combined technical sports, Geelong – 1920)
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/c1e14b9d-074a-4ad8-aa78-6f5b65980d73/1/pho019i0017.jpg – (Junior Boys’ School – 1920)
For the sake of expediency, I have cross-referenced them numerically, into what I think are visual matches from the football photo.
(Football photo) – https://ibb.co/vB6Nt1S
(Junior Boys 1, 1920) – https://ibb.co/1nXBdqH
(Junior Boys 4, 1920) – https://ibb.co/CtRyFKB
(Combined tech sports, 1920) – https://ibb.co/dQTHPmH
(Junior Boys’ School crowd – LHS) – https://ibb.co/ZLWjHvr
(Junior Boys’ School crowd – RHS) – https://ibb.co/y8HCwvS
So we may have 1 or 2 more photos of C. Webb, who is probably Carl Webb, the Somerton Man; and I’m only more drawn to No. 6, front-row bottom-left (I’m not sure about the smaller class photo, as he appears perhaps too young), as I think Nick’s pick of No. 1 bears less of SM’s resemblance in his other picture. No. 2 and No. 4 I find look similar to each other, so I’m not sure there (Of course, this is all speculation).
Also, while I can see no familiar faces, this early-1920s crowd of Swinburne engineers visually reminded me of another mysterious, similarly-dated photo, albeit fictional:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/bb125687-2336-4c28-a34d-952b1a5e22b9/1/pho016i0001.jpg
https://ibb.co/tx0J2TT
In all seriousness, we are on the right track in allowing the man on the beach to finally rest with a full identity.
https://ibb.co/j6gZhwg
Hi Louise,
I’m now a member of the Marshall File site. It was made private many years ago but has been continuing for years. Most of the information after it was made private wouldn’t be available on the public domain. Carl Webb was mentioned by a poster about 3 years ago. Hope this helps.
But if I might ask, what is the thrust of this site? Does it favour one theory over another? Does it mention the Government House murders? I’m such a verklempt slut lol. Ditzier than Marilyn at the Summer Bay Diner.
Louise Argyle: if by “this site” you mean Cipher Mysteries, it aims to progressively dig up all manner of actual historical evidence about mysterious unsolved historical ciphers, so that the opinions people hold about them can become increasingly well informed. To do this, the primary question it seeks to answer is “What happened?” – everything else is just speculation or psychology. Commenters often have their own agendas / theories, so make what you will of the comments here.
@Dan: Well done! I think the ‘ginger’ hair is even more evident in these photos.
@Furphy: Brian Arnold Stockfeld b. 1906, Hawthorn, d. 1971, Lancefield
@John Sanders and @Stefano Guidoni: Antero is a very common name in Brazil and Portugal. Bonifácio is also a very common surname. I have worked for the Bonifácio family that had a historical role in Brazilian politics since colonial times.
‘José Bonifácio de Andrada e Silva (June 13, 1763 – April 6, 1838) was a Brazilian naturalist, statesman and poet, known by the epithet of Patriarch of Independence for his decisive role in the Independence of Brazil. On January 11, 2018, he was officially declared Patron of the Independence of Brazil.’ Wikipedia
No this crappy Marshall site nobody can get into but where they knew who Carl Webb was a full three years ago!
This site is great. Derek Abbott’s is boring and information is censored.
So Glen is now a member of marshallfiles – but it doesn’t exist anymore.
It’s not private, it’s extinct.
@Behrooz, I couldn’t find a better picture of Keith Millar, but that would be very interesting since he was the vice-captain of the 1921 football team (according to the link you posted) and maybe this can shed some light on the boys’ position on the photo.
This is unrelated but I’m not sure where to post it, so Nick, feel free to do whatever you want. I have just come across something interesting, but I suspect it has already been discussed on another post. ‘J. Estyn’, Henley Beach, North Glenelg
Jones, ESTYN Dick
Service Number: SX6688
Enlisted: 24 June 1940
Last Rank: Corporal
Last Unit: 2nd/27th Infantry Battalion
Born: Mold, England, 11 July 1907
Home Town: Henley Beach , City of Charles Sturt / Henley and Grange, South Australia
Schooling: Not yet discovered
Occupation: Not yet discovered
Died: 28 February 1970, aged 62 years, cause of death not yet discovered, place of death not yet discovered
Cemetery: Not yet discovered
Memorials: Adelaide Pulteney Grammar School WW1 & WW2 Honour Board, Henley Beach Council WW2 Honour Roll and Addendum
Estyn was a founding member of the North Glenelg Sub Branch of the RSL and served as Senior Vice President 1956.
https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/602522
Jo,
I’ve just seen your post, sorry. I think your ’empathetic biography’ is quite plausible!
https://ibb.co/HF2yxWz
From a Nazi photo collection on another site. Had a striking resemblance to Carl Webb.
Hi Louise – Incorrect spelling! There is another one with a slightly different name. Hope the anxiety is settling! X
All I can say is there is going to be a court case in the near future. Certain people have been using the whole Somerton Man case to make money through the media and get funding from various Government based departments.
Pat:
Regarding your question, I don’t know either, for a similar reason! My point was basically there is clearly an element of religious catholicism in his life, whether through school, or association with Keane/Freda, that could become a factor if suicide was involved. He did not have to be religious himself for the factor to play a role, if he was close enough to take Gerald/Freda and their recently deceased son (in 1943) into account when contemplating suicide. He could have been influenced, directly or not, by catholic school or upbringing.
Regarding the photo forehead markings, I tried changing it, but I think the resolution is so poor that other markings appear elsewhere. There is no record from autopsy of TSM having forehead markings, so I would not be inclined to spend too much time on that possibility.
By the way, I tried the face matching tools, I did not get 99% on the bottom left candidate, but a 75%, which was still more than other faces.
Dan:
good effort in finding other photos, and especially other images of the bottom left candidate for C. Webb. Overall, however, we should keep in mind that if C. Webb is not TSM, or if this C. Webb is not “our” Carl Webb, then we cannot rely on similarities with TSM (hands, ear, etc.) to guess which is C. Webb in the school photo.
Nick Pelling:
I think “C. Oriander” is Charles William Oriander here https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1030/?name=_Oriander married to Gwenda Dallas Brown. They gave birth to a daughter named Janet https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8156050?searchTerm=%22charles%20w%20oriander%22 whose photo is here https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205332783?searchTerm=%22janet%20oriander%22 . Unfortunately no photo of Charles William Oriander himself, yet.
Also, this living Bradley Ainsworth in Swinburne may be related to that Ainsworth in that school photo, so can identify him. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bradley-Ainsworth-2
John Sanders,
“Alan … also signed up in 1918 giving his birth year as 1899 and got away with it by forging his parents signature” You’re right. Two other Stockfelds (Harry Frederick and Gerhard Robert), also First AIF, were KIA a week apart in September 1917, possibly uncles.
To return to “Stockfeld” of the Swinburne U/16 pic, the Box Hill Historical Society lists the following as appearing in images (not online) in its holdings. (Box Hill being not too far from Swinburne.)
Stockfeld, – [sic] 17yrs, listed player Digital image 1918 Box Hill Wattles F’ball Club
Stockfeld, A. 16yrs, listed player Digital image 1916 Blackburn Jnr Football Club
Stockfeld, A. 16yrs, listed player Digital image 1916 St Johns Cricket Club B’burn
Stockfeld, A. 18yrs, listed player Digital image 1917 Blackburn Jnr Football Club
Stockfeld, K [sic]. 15yrs, listed player Digital image 1916 Blackburn Jnr Football Club
While that list doesn’t answer the question, the sequential nature of the ages and dates leave open the possibility that A. Stockfeld was the “B. Stockfeld” of the Swinburne U/16s?
Could Estyn Dick Jones be the real owner of the book? Maybe he knew Roy Webb from the Infantry Battalion?
Pat,
“Brian Arnold Stockfeld b. 1906, Hawthorn, d. 1971, Lancefield”
Ah, that one eluded me. A more likely candidate for the Swinburne player.
Jo:
I agree with Pat regarding your empathetic biographical effort in a sociological imagination. That is really the best way to understand what happened, and to do so, private and public, social and historical, everything relevant discovered so far about TSM should come together into the narrative. Ultimately, the best explanation for TSM is one that synthesizes all the relevant and reasonable, evidential, findings about his life, and to do so successfully, we need to put ourselves in his well-polished shoes as much as we can. For the same reason, we should not worry about going back to older discussed ideas. Learning is not linear but goes in dialectical zig-zags of old and new findings.
Nick Pelling:
I would have taken Jo’s offer regarding the lecturer connection. As Khayyam would say, the cash of now is much better than a promised tomorrow’s reward!
Pat: I don’t have a problem with that all that. Antero and Bonifacio are scattered far and wide on their pat malone but, together not so from my rudimentary geni checking. I got a lot out of Philippines and especially with the ‘Ong’ in the middle as in Antero Ong Bonifacio the ‘soul’ trader from Caulfield Vic.
@Nick,
Your original post says ‘Sporstmaster D. C. Chat’ and it’s D. C. Gray, probably David Coutts Gray, b. 1893, Serpentine; d. 1969, Dandenong.
Aged
https://ibb.co/z7x4NLh
John Sanders:
“whither Derek’s DNA derivation … in … Antero Bonifacio…”
According to the story in the Murdoch paywalled-and-not-worth-it fish wrappers, Antero’s “great-great-grandmother’s nephew was … Carl Webb” or, in other words, his “first cousin three times removed”.
Genetic genealogy is very “democratic” in the sense that all ancestors of the same generation will contribute roughly equal amounts to one’s genome. Having had a bit of experience with the matter over the last few years, one of my go-to refs is DNApainter.com, which estimates the nature of a relationship based on the measured size of shared segments of DNA. The unit of measurement is centiMorgans (cM), and the total for a single genome is 6770 cM
If Antero is correct, he and Carl should share a segment = 25–238 cM Dividing that range by 6770 cM, tells us that 1st-cousins-3x-removed normally share between 0.36% and 3.5% of their respective genomes. (Or about the same as a 3x great-grandparent and 3x great-grandchild.)
Any verified match of those dimensions is meaningful. Personally, i would look seriously at any genuine match of 18cM or greater, which is the average for 6th cousins (or someone who shares ancestors born around 1750–1800). Undrr some circumstances, meaningful matches can even be made with 7 cM or even less (although the number of ‘false positives” starts to mount up below 7 cM).
John Sanders,
I didn’t know about the ‘Ong’ bit, thanks!
Court Martial documents are available for ESTYN DICK JONES in the National Archives of Australia. Very interesting reading!
This may be the “J. Wilson” in the team photo. Is it him? The link includes a photo https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243787181?searchTerm=%22J.%20Wilson%22%20football If it is him, there may be several matches from the team line up (hard to know which). It seems he was captain of some team, if this is the same J. Wilson https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244032314?searchTerm=%22J.%20Wilson%22%20football
“R. James”? Seems unlikely, given he’d be too young for the team (front seat, middle), but as a possible promising young junior?: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213379805?searchTerm=%22R.%20James%22%20football
@Pat & Jo:
School ties can be very powerful – I knew someone who once upset an interviewer by wearing a tie the interviewer thought was an attempt to look like a graduate of Pultney (as in the Pultney Grammar School mentioned in terms of Estyn). But was any of the ties a school one? Surely if the tie he was wearing were a Melbourne Grammar one, someone would have picked that up (their current tie is different, and from the photographs I can find from that era they don’t look the same either)
The Estyn in Glenelg is interesting but (I think) problematic – mainly because if it relates to “JEstyn” then we need a connection to Sydney rather than Adelaide.
Maybe something along the lines of he’d (Estyn, not Carl) been stalking Jo for a while and even moved to stay close to her. At some stage he’s given her the book, and being quite the larrikin she’s re-gifted it to Boxall. He might also have been the chap seen looking for her shortly before SM’s demise. Perhaps saw SM go to the house and thought he might’ve been a romantic interest so he knocked him off. Seems a bit of a stretch though- especially with Estyn appearing to be an Adelaide boy, so unless a posting took him do Dysney at some stage…..
The camp where Roy Webb died, poor chaps.
https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/wars-and-missions/burma-thailand-railway-and-hellfire-pass-1942-1943/locations/camps-f-force/kami-songkurai-camp
It is strange what can be done with online animation software these days, with a few clicks, in seconds!
Cutout.pro at https://www.cutout.pro/photo-animer-gif-emoji seems to be a powerful tool that not only animates, but does it by enhancing the photo image quality manyfold.
I used its free online tool to do some selective animations. See the link to the folder download below.
One of them is the main TSM photo animated. Of the team member photos, I chose only selected ones and animated only those with more or less passing ear feature, not doing it for others which are obviously not ones with the right ears. Basically, none of the candidates pass (beside one other remote case, see PS1 below), except for the bottom left that most have thought could be him. The enhanced photo of him also reveals a very clear matching left (for us) eyebrow. Other features do pass, as far as I can judge (except the scar issue, for which see PS2 below).
To save more of the trouble of identifying others (which may still need to be done to narrow down names matching with faces), basically this boils down to identifying who the bottom left candidate is, with following choices:
1- If he is C. Webb, and it is found that he is actually “our” Carl Webb, then matching with TSM is almost accomplished (as far as ears go).
2- If he is found to be not the C. Webb in the photo, it means one of the others is C. Webb, and if he is found to be our Carl Webb, frankly he and none of the others really match TSM features (again, see PS1 below for one other possibility). This would mean the hypothesis (so far) that TSM is Carl Webb would go out the window.
PS1-the only other match that plausibly has the right ears is the third from the left, middle-row, whom I have animated also. Generally he does not look like TSM in terms of his eye brows, but who knows what happens during decades growing up.
PS2-One spoiler could be related to Pat’s eagle vision of the scar on boy’s forehead. It is somewhat more visible now. I say spoiler, since, if the boy had the scar, and TSM did not, then it can be a spoiler for his candidacy. TSM was not reported to have the scar, as far as I know. Then, either we have to hope for the other remote possibility case, or decide this team does not match with TSM features.
For the animations, you have to go the google drive folder I set up and then click on each item to download it, then you can watch the animation: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ucRZQwZKwhRhqzRt1dV1lX-zxzJIrL8u?usp=sharing
I’ve decided to go with the dough in singling out the bottom left lad in the photo; Not on facial features alone which do stand out, but also on his oversized hands “huge” according to Gordon Cramers informant Paul Lawson. My only worry would be on his being no taller than his team mates which may be put down to his being younger or slower to mature, SM being 5′ 11″ well above average for the twenties. Another thought perhaps of some merit would be to get GC to work on extracting DNA from the photo image with his recently suggested DNA ‘blood out of a stone” technique to compare with Mr. Bonifacio’s ‘six degree of separation’ maternal Martin ancestor.
Charlie Learns to Labour
What if Furphy’s cleverly spotted C Webb of Swinburne Tech had turned out to be Clarence or Cuthbert or Claude!
Companeros Poetas, breathe easy! I took a trip up to the Public Records Office of Victoria and viewed two beautifully bound Examination Results books for Swinburne Technical School.
The 1909-1929 Engineering results yielded only C Webb, written in a beautiful cursive hand. C Webb appears in 1922, amongst a group of eight evening students studying Electricity and Magnetism 1. Webb was third placed of the eight, with a pass result of 62. He appears again in Engineering Drawing 1, amongst 27 students with a score of 75. The top was WL Ellis with 92. The students were arranged in alphabetical order, so C Webb was fairly easy to find. It was a little frustrating, as in previous years the students had been arranged according to their results, with full names provided!
Interestingly, there are details of the Scholarships awarded to Evening Students in 1921 by the College Council, but no mention of C Webb (more on this later…). The two students named were Bennett, Leonard and Preece, Stanley.
But then, the 1916-1922 Departmental and Annual Supps book, a rather more used looking book, comprising type written pages glued onto the pages of more officious looking ledger yielded Charles Webb, even in one class as Charlie! The results were often signed off “Yours obediently”! AG Marshall and C Oriander and the whole damned bunch of them were there! There was even one girl, a Lisle Clegg, who was the only one to beat Charlie Web in the 1920 Mensuration class! 80 to Lisle against Charlie’s 75… (Lisle also studied Chemistry, Theoretical as a day student in 1922, along with AG Marshall… but not Charlie).
So this is what Charlie studied and when:
1920:
Practical Plane Geometry (52) as Charles Webb
Arithmetic (Practical Mathematics) (73)
Algebra (Practical Mathematics) (90) joint second place with Lisle Clegg behind Douglas Dumsday.
Geometry (60) Geoffrey Uebergang was first placed with 80%.
I’m beginning to wish Charlie had just asked Lisle out, instead of getting mixed up with Doff… But then, as a capable and well resourced girl who continued on to senior secondary school and beyond as a day student, perhaps she was out of reach! And Geoffrey Uebergang! There were German names all over Swinburne! Another Carl, Alexander Hillebrandt…
1921:
Algebra Grade I Charles Webb 73
Practical Solid Geometry – Fail!
C Webb received a Pass with Credit for his Junior Technical Certificate
He also sat and passed Education Department Technical Schools Annual Examinations in Practical Mathematics and Elementary Modelling.
1922
Engineering Drawing Grade I 75 Credit
And there the trail runs dry…
Austin Marshall, a far less academically able student continues to stumble on through a variety of Engineering and Building subjects through to 1924…
So, what to make of this? The Victorian School Leaving Age was only raised to fifteen in 1943, so Charlie Webb continued his schooling longer than many. Perhaps the 1921 scholarship was a means of retaining an academically able boy, who was also good on the footy field, but of modest means? His senior secondary schooling may have enabled Charlie to enter an apprenticeship or to continue learning on the tools? Technical schools were still quite new, their establishment was provided for by the Education Act of 1910 (though some like Swinburne and the Melbourne Working Men’s College [later RMIT] were already up and running by then). The first Chief Inspector of Technical Schools was appointed in 1911. There were very few state secondary schools, the first being Melbourne Continuation School (a forerunner of Melbourne High School) in 1905. University High School was established in 1910 and the first secondary courses were only published in 1913, the Manual Arts Certificate was established in 1910.
An interesting post script is the conversation I had when I handed the volumes back to the desk. I told the bloke at the desk, who was just starting his shift that those navy blue volumes contained details of the Somerton Man. He told me that a woman had been in recently and had accessed something relating to the Somerton Man and the Supreme Court. I asked if it related to a divorce, he believed it might have! If there is something there that I can access I’ll return and take a few photos!
Nick – if you’d like photos of the school results I can email them to you. Did you receive the 1930 footy photo and what do you make of it? (It’s a very unclear photo, with names, but no C Webb. There are a few unnamed people, including a couple of players…)
Comrades – if you’d like a quick description of Charlie’s local neighbourhood, then and now, with some scatterings of Rubiayat tossed in, I’m happy to be of service! I do need to step back a little as I’ve a thesis to write!!
Lisle Clegg was male. He went on to become a TV compere using the name Vernon Lisle.
Jo: well thats that no less and so be it. Having now cornered young Charlie and fitted him to his later trade and calling, what can you offer us for to date our thirst for more. We can only wonder what became of Lisle Clegg, thể bright lass who bested Charlie boy in the Masturbation class of 1920. I noticed in your post, mention of the surname Bennett without initials and am wondering if you recorded them per chance. You might recall mention of Dorothy Robertson and her having been related to Bennett….A fine effort on our behalf and I’ve put your user name up for honourable mention.
Jo,
Great work, and very interesting details there. I’m glad that those results could be found where they logically should have been; I was just thinking that I might have sent Nick on a wild goose chase with my suggestion about TAFE Victoria.
I guess there was no Electricity and Magnetism for Charlie and Miss Lisle Clegg. I’d also like to think that, in a parallel universe, a business partnership was formed out of those classmates, becoming the engineering firm of Dumsday & Uebergang.
(They don’t make surnames like they used to.)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zpxpxrcnu6xl8xb/SFC-1930-Premiership-Team.pdf?dl=0
What d’ya reckon? Its very unclear and the unnamed man on the back row could be too tall (though 5’11” was tall back then…). He appears to have the right colouring… Looks a little like Jason Ball for those who know their footy! CW could be one of the other unnamed young men as we know he was injured a few times that year. On the other hand I could be barracking for the wrong team! Charlie seems like a veritable Aussie bloke, football, meat pies… (kangaroos and Holden cars?)
There was a man called Estyn Dick Jones living in Henley Beach at the time. There are plenty of reports about him on newspapers (Trove) and the National Archives of Australia. He was bankrupt by 1939, in the courts, see case Yerkey V Jones, it’s a classical case of the ‘wives special equity’, he enlisted in 1941 (2/27th Infantry Battalion) and ended up in a Court Martial by 1946, after being dispatched on the SS Stirling Castle ship to an Australian Mission in Berlin, Germany.
My theory is that the SM was looking for Estyn (hence the Henley Beach ticket) and that the signature on the Rubaiyat is J Estyn for Jones, Estyn. Maybe the book was a gift from other person (even Jessica Thompson or Boxall), but the SM (aka Carl Webb) was going to see Estyn, maybe because he had business with him (and Jessica or her husband) or was something related to his dead brother Roy Webb (2/29th Infantry Battalion), maybe Estyn knew Roy, or many other possibilities.
I mean so even though most people would have written the name as JONES, E, this bloke wrote his as J. ESTYN. What do you think about that, PNick? Hbu BPeter?
@Behrroz, Excellent job! Thanks! A strange experience, seeing the SM return from the dead. Regarding the ‘scar’ on the forehead, I think it’s just a pronounced crease, so maybe it wouldn’t necessarily be noteworthy in an autopsy report?
@Jo,Excellent job! Thanks! Feck the thesis, this is much more interesting, haha. Carl’s nickname is interesting, perhaps Abbott knows more than he has revealed. Perhaps Charlie was more ‘acceptable’ for an Australian boy after WW1. And perhaps he had another alias after WW2. Regarding Lisle, maybe Lisle Alexander (Vernon) Clegg?
@milongal: Sorry, I’m far from being an ‘expert’ on the SM… why do we need a connection to Sidney, regarding Estyn Jones?
Jo:
These are wonderful and very important finds, in my reading. Thanks for taking the time to investigate it. If only you could help find the treasure house the divorce filing text of Dorothy is, in terms of the actual detailed test. I have a feeling there is more there, obvious or hidden between the lines, that has not been publicized; actually I am surprised those who have the files have not been fully forthcoming with its texts (for example, how did they conclude he wrote his own poetry, and if there is a clear text there, why did they not quote it?). I will be willing to chip in any filing fees if needed. From what I saw online, it should not be more than 50 (aus) dollars.
So, you have basically confirmed that the Webb being around at that age in school, hanging out with the same crowd in football team (like A. Marshall, who now we know was A. G. Marshall or better even Austin Marshall) was a Charlie Webb. Besides, now we have a good sense of the courses he took. Magnetism! Also, interesting to my eyes as far as its poetics go.
That is good enough for me for almost confirming that the boy on front left is Carl/Charlie Webb. Now, whether he is the actual Carl Webb presumed to be TSM is still open, but physical features do match incredibly. Big hands, ears, (somberness, in all three photos found of him), etc.
I wonder about that Pat-mentioned scar, but it is not established fully yet if it is there and not a photo processing issue. It could have been also a surface scar that went away with age, as it is not overly pronounced. It may have gotten mixed up, hidden, under forehead wrinkles in autopsy examination, who knows?
Any ways, I think with Jo’s finding we are one step closer to having a young photo of Carl Webb and possibly TSM.
Happy thesis-writing, Jo. Next project, divorce files please!
@Jo
Would the ‘engineering’ course last 2 or 3 years?
Estyn D. Jones was married to Florence May (they are widely mentioned in newspapers, their court case has been mentioned in law studies ever since). I can’t find any marriage records in Australia, so maybe they were already married when they left Wales (he was born in Mold, Flintshire) or elsewhere.
David Morgan appears to be right about Lisle’s gender, and pronounced “Lyle”, rather than “Liesl”.
“Associated with the Frank Neil Follies, now visiting Perth, is Mr. Lisle Clegg, known on the stage as Vernon Lisle.” (The West Australian, 23 Oct 1934, p. 12.)
“Vernon Lisle studied violin and piano from an early age, but studied engineering at Melbourne’s Swinburne College.” ( https://www.australianmusiccentre.com.au/artist/lisle-vernon )
@Katie-Dee, you have copied/pasted ‘your’ (mine) message from another website… ; D
Jo,
Thanks for the pic! If he’s the ‘?’ in the back row, I understand why Dorothy married him, despite all the somberness and depression ; D
Jo, does Tall&Handsome fourth from the right have the right ears?
Can someone tech savvy enhance the quality of Jo’s 1930 football team photo? My instincts tell me he is Charlie Webb…
Pat / Rena / Jo:
The image is very poor in quality https://www.okcir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/5thtoprowfromleft.png. This is perhaps the best one can do. I did not bother animating it, as it would be the same, just eyes close and open. I think the left ear is completely shown rather than cut off due to poor image quality and it is not like the boy in Swinburne photo, both in terms of the lobe and also the top left edge. I don’t think it is him (also hair style is different, combed back). By the way, he is 5th from right, not fourth, in back row.
@Pat: TS linked to a Rubaiyat with Jess’ number. Jess mentioned she’d given a Rubaiyat (totally different edition in totally different hardcover book format) to Alf Boxall in Sydney some years earlier. Police in Sydney located Boxall, and the back of *that* Rubaiyat had v70 “Indeed, Indeed, Repentence….” and was signed JEstyn (or JEStyn) – there’s been a lot of speculation about that, with Jess apparently explaining it as it being a nickname for her (Tiny Jess….).
In any case, Boxall doesn’t appear to have links to Adelaide and so the Rubaiyat with JEstyn in it is linked to Sydney rather than Adelaide.
There’s a lot more speculation in the comments for different posts on this page – including (one or two posts dedicated to speculation of surname Styn etc)…..the TSBS site also speculated about Mjr Jestyn Moulds – but you can make up your own mind on how well that stacks up….
Behrooz,
Very good, thanks! Yes, the ear looks different, but the hair style 9 years later is admissible in court, haha, he wouldn’t keep the boyish look. I always count from left, weirdo brain…
Pat: You are welcome. Regarding counting, I was actually referring to Rena who said “fourth from the right”—sorry for not clarifying. Regarding the animations I sent, I agree with you. TSM coming alive was rather strange. The same for the young boy (and others). Hope others have had a chance to take a look.
In relation to other conversations, we should keep the two Rubaiyats separate. There is no reason to believe the one Jestyn gave to Boxall had anything to do with TSM, other than the fact that she may have a shared interest with both about Rubaiyat. Boxall also did not deny her having written her quatrain #70 note on its front page and signed it for him (as evident even from his TV interview available on YouTube). Whether her shock at seeing the mask was in relation to Boxall or TSM, is hard to tell, but her comments years later to her daughter clearly left no doubt that she was aware that the mask was about someone other than Boxall, and that she knew who he was, as someone already deceased, not one, i.e., Boxall, who died much later in 1995.
The gendered nature of (technical) education in the 1920s and the unfinished puzzle of the dance of death…
Thank you to those of you who clarified that Charlie Webb’s classmate Lisle Clegg was not a girl! I think it was my femo biases that wanted to find a pioneer girl in there somewhere! My dad studied mechanical engineering in Lancashire, UK, in the 1950s and there were two girls in his class, very beautiful Sikh twins. They always topped the class and were completely unapproachable as they had a very fierce and smartly turbaned Sikh engineer father! Yes, there were plenty of girls in the Swinburne Tech needlework and drawing classes!
One of the only ways to continue in education for girls of modest means in the interwar was as teachers, like Charlie’s brutally and mysteriously murdered contemporary, Molly (Mary Winifred) Dean (1905-1930). Her story was the basis for the “Jessica” murder in George Johnston’s “My Brother Jack” – a great read for entering the spirit of Charlie’s times. Gideon Haigh’s “A Scandal in Bohemia”, on Molly, is a great example of writing and research that gives a sense of Melbourne local history of the time and of biography and life for people of the past whose intriguing stories we may never truely be able to piece together…
Aussie Rules Footy, as explained to American Servicemen in 1942
https://www.army.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-11/instructions_for_american_servicemen_in_australia_1942_0.pdf
The late Greg Denning, Professor of History at Melbourne University once said that, “It’s a mistake to think of the past as us in funny (or American!) clothes”. I have to admit to getting a little prickly when pathologies of the present overshadow the task putting the historical imagination to work… (a criticism of some of the Facebook sites on this case, rather than the great archival work on this blog…).
I used “Instructions for American Servicemen in Australia 1942” in a history class a few years ago and was quite relieved that the boys picked up on its racism and ignorance towards Australian Indigenous people, history and culture…
There is a great sense of footy however:
“The Australians have another national game called Australian Rules Football, which is rough, tough, and exciting. There are a lot of rules – the referee carries a rule book the size of an ordinary Webster’s Dictionary. Unlike cricket, which is a polite game, Australian Rules Football creates a desire on the part of the crowd to tear someone apart, usually the referee – some parks have runways covered over, so the referee can escape more or less intact, after the game is over the crowd is apt to yell “Wake up melon head” or some such pleasantry at the umpire, but they don’t think it good sportsmanship to heckle the teams. Australian soldiers play it at every chance. In one camp the boys used Bren gun carriers to clear a field to play on and that afternoon 500 of an outfit of 700 got into a game.” (p30)
I’m a bit baffled by the insistence that the American clothing came to Charlie by way of a family war time death in Ireland when the Domain area of South Yarra was simply full of Americans in the 1940s! One of the women (Marjorie Tipping) who started the Fawkner Park kindergarten in 1946 told me that there was a need to care for a number of babies the Americans often unknowingly left behind! Wouldn’t there be a few coats in the mix?
We’ll just got blocked off the Facebook page for suggesting Prosper Thomson was a con man and pretty sure had something to do with this . He was in my opinion a man of little moral character. Just look at the article and subsequent court appearances shortly before the Carl Webb appears on the scene. Everything to do with cars from Roy Being a driver, the Rubaiyat found in a taxi to to prospers later profession as a car dealer black market and shady characters indeed is I am sure behind all this.
JohnS … I know it seems unlikely, but was there an instance of the 2/27th and 2/29th crossing paths in WW2?
Pat: seems Katie-Dee’s man Estyn Dick Jones was married to Florence May Blanche nee Spehr, nee Grant bn. 1903 at Adelaide in 1932, first marriage to a Beachport farmer Herb Spehr. It ended with his death in 1929, the pair having had a daughter Florence (flo), so what else is there to know?
Peteb: Estyn Jones was exhonorated on all five counts the CTPOGOMD ’46 Courts Marshall charges and in later years only civil blemish was a ticket for illegal parking. The man lived without sin, So I think you might give him a pass on the dud SM conspiracy rap which had no legs from the outset. Estyn/Jestyn be dambed.
Jo: thank you so much for taking the time to go to the PROV to have a look at the Swinburne Technical College examination results! Please do send photos through to me (I’m nickpelling at nickpelling dot com, unsurprisingly), these seem fully worthy of a post on their own (all credited to you and the PROV). 😉
As to the 1930s footie picture: I’m so swamped with Somerton Man comments here that you had already posted a Dropbox link by the time I got to it. 🙁
Pete: absolutely no chance 2/27th Btn. having been raised in Adelaide and sent to the middle east with the 7th Div before 2/29th existed. Latter being mainly Victorian, raised in ’40 and sent to Malaya in August ’41 as part of 27th Brigade 8th div. that surrendered in March ’42 and you’ll know the rest e.g. Roy Webb’s sad ending from over work, neglect etc. on the T/B (Jap) railway in ’43 from memory.
John: I was briefly in Kuwait. Honoured by our Australian Queen! I now understand the war I fought was for xxx and his particular type of World Bank ‘ilk’. So nice to see that we were duped from go to whoa.
I mentioned Estyn Jones simply because I saw it here – I don’t agree with the theory one iota. It’s a ludicrous theory as is the notion of suicide.
The Somerton Man was – in my view – murdered by Jessie Thomson who was (of her own account) a Communist, Russian-speaking Jewess. He was of German extraction snd loyal to neither King nor British Commonwealth. Not saying he was a truly loyal Bolshie, but like Boxall (anglicised from Boschel/Buschel if you know his antecedents) he was dodgy.. Few of them were loyal to the Empire despite their protestations. Contemporaneous records from the Berrima internment camp (NSW) support this notion.
Here’s a possible wartime job for C. Webb which lacks the melodrama of other suggestions, but has the advantage of being (just) unremarkable enough to keep Charlie off the radar (if you’ll excuse the pun) of the usual sources.
External civilian instructors, often based at technical schools, were a mainstay of five RAAF Schools of Technical Training. These were set up from 1939 to train raw RAAF recruits, or upskill them, in trades including instrument maker, instrument repairer, fitter, radio (“W/T”) operator, electrician, X-ray technician, radar (“high frequency direction finding”), and wireless mechanic. Melbourne was home to the first such establishment, No. 1 STT RAAF (with the others being located in Sydney, Brisbane, Perth and … Adelaide). According to BirtwhistleWiki (a local history site), 1 STT trainees attended “several institutions including the Brunswick Technical College, the Amalgamated Wireless (Australia) School, the Footscray Technical College and the Emily McPherson School of Domestic Economy.” (In March 1941, the HQ of 1 STT moved from its original home at the Melbourne Junior Technical School, West Melbourne, to the Royal Exhibition Building, Carlton.) 1STT was disbanded on 22 December 1945.
https://birtwistlewiki.com.au/wiki/No._1_School_of_Technical_Training_RAAF
.
Furphy: all well and good, man with his credentials would have been in high demand as an RAAF instructor in any one of several technical skills but where did he aquire them. There is no record of passenger arrivals from the Continent or America where he might have learnt them and developed his tradefcraft between graduating from Swinburne up until hostilities commenced in ’39. However there are records of a 20 year old C. Webb arriving in Wellington NZ on 28/10/24, his est. YOB being 1904; Then another C. Webb arrival at Auckland 1/3/27 aged 23, est. YOB being 1904 both journeys aboard SS Marama and presumably the same man. It seems that cross Tasman arrivals to Sydney went unrecorded whilst Melbourne was a hit or miss affair hence no return listings for any C. Webb. Thing that points to it having been our Carl of course is the abscence of a middle initial which one might expect id he had one. Where do we go from here?
@milongal @Behrooz, thanks for the clarification, but I find it strange that the same people who think Jessica and/or Alf could have been involved with SM (not necessarily her death) also believe their accounts of the Rubaiyat books. If at least one of them knew the SM and his whereabouts, one would certainly have tipped off the other, especially after the police contacted her by phone (but not necessarily, if she was involved or knew of his passing). I will review the timeline of events, but I know there is controversy over this as well (at least on websites). Is there a good source of information about the timeline of events besides CM? I’ll read all Nick’s posts on the case as soon as work allows.
@Peteb: I had already checked on the two Infantry Battalions (2/27th and 2/29th) and saw no connections, as John Sanders have said, but that doesn’t mean Carl didn’t know of Estyn Jones’ existence. The fact that Estyn was exonerated from the Court Martial also doesn’t say anything about the SM case. I have never said he was a conman or that he had anything to do with the SM’s death. I just said his name was Estyn Dick Jones and that he lived in Henley Beach during the exact time that the events took place. As far as I know, Jessica’s nicknames Jo and Jestyn have been explained by some odd theories as well as the Henley beach ticket.
@Katie-Dee: You mentioned Estyn Jones, because you saw it on tombsbytwo, not here, otherwise why would you need to copy/paste my post from that website? If my theory is ludicrous, why mention it without quotes and without any comment of your own? And what has suicide to do with it? As for your theory, why do you believe Jessica’s accounts of the book and her funny nicknames and at the same time think she and Alf are guilty of `being communist, not loyal to the King nor the British Commonwealth’. As I said before, I am only beginning to know the facts about this case, I don’t have any real ‘theories’, just trying to make connections between the facts that have been disclosed by the police and even that is quite hard to find because there are different accounts and much of the material has been lost. I don’t have any personal or nationalistic interest in this case
Typo… ‘his’ not her death…
@Furphy
I like the pun ‘Charlie off the radar’, can I borrow it for my future essay on the SM? 😇
@John Sanders,
Would you be able to post links to these C. Webbs in NZ?
John Sanders:
A “man with his credentials would have been in high demand as an RAAF instructor in any one of several technical skills but where did he acquire them…”?
Probably in Melbourne during the 1920s – attending night school, while helping out at the bakery. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of CW travelling to NZ to ply teach his trade/s, but it’s unlikely that he qualified as an instrument maker or electrical fitter in Auckland or Wellington.
“It seems that cross Tasman arrivals to Sydney went unrecorded whilst Melbourne was a hit or miss affair…” Yep. As a result of my own genealogical searches 7n such records, I know they can be worse than useless.
I mean, any record is better than nothing, but I think it more likely that there’s interesting stuff regarding CW to be found in the records of technical colleges in Victoria, with regard to students, and maybe staff as well. Also any extant records from relevant private schools hosted by major firms (e.g. the AWA School mentioned in connection with 1 STT RAAF). I’d also be looking at tech colleges in NSW before venturing across the Tasman.
(btw) I raised those air force establishments as an e.g., because of the higher demand that military aviation has for “instrument makers” and “electrical fitters”. Whether or not civilian instructors taught at similar units set up by the navy and army (RAEME) for their own specialists, I cannot say. (The AWM in Canberra likely has any records open to the public from those wartime schools, possibly also the NAA.)
Pat:
“can I borrow it for my future essay on the SM?”
Seja meu convidado; não exijo nenhuma atribuição para figuras de linguagem 😉
@Behrooz I agree re keeping Rubaiyat’s separate (and there is plenty of discussion about them elsewhere – some more coherent than other). That said, I don’t put much weight on the comments by her daughter (unless you’re talking about something else – I assume you mean the ‘higher than the police’ stuff). I can think of so many reasons why to be cautious of that sort of information – it’s 3rd party so it assumes the teller is repeating what was actually said (and not their interpretation of what was said); it assumes that it wasn’t said as a joke; it assumes the story-teller clearly recalls the occasion; it assumes the person telling the story isn’t making things up (and in an interview situation you say one little thing wrong and then it escalates when rather than clarify what you meant you feel a need to double down on a claim you make)…..etc.
More broadly I sort of get the impression that most of us have a tendency to focus on a minor detail as being supremely important (and we’ve seen the rabbitholes some people end up down when they go all-in on their detail).
@Jo – thanks for the link to the instructions to US servicemen. Wow at how the world has changed (first paragraph p15)!
Pat: not into links sorry, but easy to find on line if you have some rudimentary parlez-vous Francais? @ NZ passenger arrivals from 1642 to 1973 inc.
milongal:
Thanks for your note. Just to clarify, my reference to her daughter was only to the part where she acknowledged (in her view) her mother telling her she knew who TSM was, but did not wish to elaborate (“let it out of the bag”), and that the person being referred to was TSM (dead in 1948) not Boxall, who died later naturally (see here). That’s all I had in mind.
I am not inclined to believe in the spy stories, or who she thought was responsible for his death or, “higher ups knew” comments, including those she mentioned in the interview. I see your point, though, that even her saying Jestyn knew TSM could have been her own impression, rather than directly being told so by her mother. This is the difficulty generally with her having acted in a way that suggested she preferred to be secretive. Feltus, having interviews here directly, had the impression that she knew him, even though she said she did not. The same can be heard in Lawson’s comments on his meeting Jestyn and her behavior.
For me the coincidence of very rare ear-teeth matchup in two people in the story is much more significant than a “T. Keane” name-on-clothing coincidence with someone who actually used Gerald Keane as his name in public consistently. I don’t rule out Carl Webb being TSM, but I think TSM knew Jestyn, and had a reason to die walks away from her house, having had her phone number with him, and shared an interest in the Rubaiyat, which is ultimately also a poetry about the meaning of life and death.
Hopefully new findings will rule the above conjectures in or out.
@ Furphy
I’m wondering about the trips to NZ. An earlier post, I think from @Pat detailed a local newspaper notice about Charlie being absent from the bakery because he was camping at Monbulk, It seems that Charlie was pretty indispensable to the family business during his Springvale years (He many have done deliveries? Someone also found possible evidence of a driving offence – driving without headlights in the early morning…). I would be more interested in anything relating to travel after Richard Augustus Webb’s death… That is unless Russell Richard Webb initially helped at the bakery and Charlie became involved later… There doesn’t seem to be much information out there on Russell Richard Webb?
@ milongal
You’re welcome!
I had a quick check – the Malvern bakery where Charlie lived is still there (though as a medical practice, rather than a bakery).. I can’t nail down a possible building for the Springvale bakery, though have two potential buildings in mind, there are very few buildings from the 1920s on Springvale Road, Springvale vs Glenferrie Road, Malvern. What is interesting is that all of the contemporary Springvale bakeries are (very ably) run by Vietnamese or Indochinese families – a reminder of how long the Cold War ran (it looks to be still sprinting!) and the terrain it encompassed…
The first book ever published by Melbourne University Press was Myra Willard’s 1923 History of the White Australia Policy! My perception is that Australia was slightly more multicultural prior to Federation (Germans, Italians, Americans, Chinese etc and certainly a mixed bag on the first fleets) due to deportation, the gold rushes and news of its agricultural potential. The 1901 White Australia Policy wasn’t simply xenophobia but rather a national project to build a new nation from British stock, without the perceived ethnic and racial problems of the US and Canada… And of course Australia was one of the most enthusiastic adopters of eugenics! The German position is complicated – John Monash, one of the Australia’s best engineers and WWI Commanders was from a German speaking Jewish family…on the other hand, there were lots of German Jews on the Dunera… The need for labour for post war nation building was of course the undoing of the White Australia policy – beginning with first Minister for Immigration Arthur Caldwell’s “Beautiful Balts”. Nowadays they let all sort of randos in – hence how I ended up in Melbourne!
Jo, your theories are all wrong.
Infusing the past with your modern femmo-multi-culty views is going to take you far away from the truth. This was a cabal of eccentric German and Jewish commies and sundry criminal ratbags who had no place in the Australia of their day. There is a strong theory that SM was hunted down by angry British Australians strongly
Loyal to their King (even in ’48 still the rightful KING OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN.
Additionally, when Magnossen identified Somerton as CARL THOMSEN, would that have rung any bells for you in ’48?
His name was Carl and he was rooting ‘Mrs’ Thomson. Guessing he took her ‘last name’ as an alias. Probably helped him hide from the rest of the Germano-Semitic CPA and it’s nasty little minions. Poor Mrs Mags was threatened by communists not to tell.
What has God wrought one might be entitled to ask, and for that matter why is everybody picking on me. I’m a decrepit old suit still trying my best to do the duty I was Sworn to do by virtue of Gordon Cramer’s non existent Official Secrets Act (as amended) without beer and skittles. Leave me be so I can get on with my task…pretty please.
In the frenzy to work out which boy in the photo is C Webb we should all remember something. The most familiar photo of SM that we all know was taken ten days after the body was found, after initial embalming had occurred. There’s a fascinating account of this by the nephew of the bloke who actually embalmed the corpse (L Elliott) on YouTube ‘Somerton Man: Panel Discussion’: See: https://youtu.be/1SnC9t8qGkI – at roughly 11mins 45 secs. This also clears up the mystery of Gordon’s photos – the “new” ones he has were taken six months after the finding of the body when embalming fluids would have bloated out the tissue of the face. I contacted Gordon as he mentioned Pat’s, Denny’s and my names on his blogspot and he has taken a look at the video. There are also photos of the corpse taken a day or two after the discovery before embalming as the video makes clear. Bear in mind that, as Prof Abbott says in the same video, that corpses don’t resemble living people. He illustrates this by showing the corpse of a famous film star – I immediately shouted “Marilyn Monroe” at my laptop – on the slab she looks more like the Creature from the Black Lagoon.
Interestingly I found a piece from the Adelaide News of 2 May 1949 which explains “The Liquid Fuel Control Board granted Mr. Elliott enough petrol for 50 visits to the morgue in connection with the embalming. For the first three months Mr. Elliott averaged four visits a week.” 50 VISITS! Geez.
Looking at some of the choices for Webb I believe that some commenters have been swayed by the animations and paintings commissioned of SM, which make him look like a Hollywood film star. Also some may have chosen the boy they fancy (or would fancy if he was a bit older). I don’t have that problem and am hanging out for my unpopular choice of the boy second from right in the middle row. One commenter said that I picked him intuitively. Godammit! I went for this lad after serious and rigorous scientific analysis (and after consultation with my personal medium Mrs Engine – great-niece of Aleister Crowley – who uses the late Larry Grayson as her spirit guide).
Talking of Hollywood film stars no amount of embalming would make me look like local boy made good Cary Grant who was born five minutes walk from where I live. There’s a blue plaque on the house and when I were but a lad we used to see his Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud around the place. The old codger who lived two doors up from us was at school with Grant (then Archie Leach) and used to go and watch Bristol City matches with him. Traitors! This is prime Bristol Rovers territory. Type Cary Grant Horfield into Google Images or see; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-29522987 – and you will find a pic of him swinging from a local bus stop. I will be heading to that stop in an hour or so to catch a bus to visit my 94 year old aunt who lives up in Filton, where they built Concorde (and yes I witnessed both the first and last flights of the British version of that old bird).
@Sputumia
Ad hominem attacks won’t get you very far. And you don’t have to be a “femmo-multi-culty” to despise misogyny and racism.
Jo,
Here’s a reasonable – perhaps even intriguing – possibility, for what CW may have been doing during the 1920s. In a movie magazine (ambitiously titled “Everyone’s”) with evidently national circulation, mention is made in 1929 of a “Charles Webb” departing Sydney to instal audio equipment for the first wave of talkies – in this instance, a cinema in Port Pirie. It’s just possible that he was also doing cinema fitout in Auckland and Wellington too.
“Censors Praise Raycophone
Installations
FROM now on the Common-
wealth Censors will hear
talkies on their own premises.
Raycophone wired the theatrette
this week, and W. Cresswell
O’Reilly is forwarding to Can-
berra a eulogistic report on the
machine’s reproduction quality.
In Perth, W. Bellion’s New Ox-
ford Theatre, Leederville, and C.
Norton’s Premier Theatre, East
Perth, opened with Raycophone to
the satisfaction of exchange heads,
who have agreed to service both
installations.
Next to wire with Raycophone is
Forrester’s Port Pirie Theatre,
South Australia. Kevin Borthwick
and Charles Webb have left Sydney
to install the equipment.”
(Everyone’s [magazine] vol.10, no.504 (16 October 1929), p.7.)
(fwiw) The (New) Oxford cinema, here in Perth, is still going strong, 97 years later, although the Premier was demolished about 30 years ago, after spending a few decades as an ice rink and music venue, among other things.
Jo:
Excellent point you have, saying “I’m a bit baffled by the insistence that the American clothing came to Charlie by way of a family war time death in Ireland when the Domain area of South Yarra was simply full of Americans in the 1940s! ”
If only the professor can also (presumably dispassionately) let go of other hunches he has had, like how the Somerton Man has now been demoted from a ballet dancing, American president descending, man to a small-time horse-racing gambler living a mundane life, whose portrait may be still worth keeping on the wall after.
@Furphy, very good, that would be so more mundane than the other explanations, not that I prefer the mundane ones, but Occam’s razor and all that…
@Steve H: I think the photos of the SM that have been around are actually the ones taken BEFORE embalming, they are almost perfect, although I have to admit I don’t know what you mean by ‘initial embalming’. I am reading the files on Abbot’s wiki page and I think the photographer took the photos of his face (front and lateral) as soon as the body arrived in the morgue, or have I misunderstood it?
@Steve H….two days for the first and most popular pic of SM to appear in papers Australia wide, not ten mate, just to put things into their proper perspective for those unaware. Evrrything else in your related post are otherwise commendable.
Was anything more ever found regarding Solomonson? Looking through Cipher Mysteries I dont see anything. It was mentioned on Wikipedia. Its interesting talking about Wikipedia with occassional medical professionals. They arent very high on it. As you might guess this case is still suss to me and likely will always be. No amount of folks, who I have no clue who they are, saying its boring are likely to change that.
Pat
The video I provided a link to explains the process:
https://youtu.be/1SnC9t8qGkI
Tony Elliott, the first speaker, was the nephew of Laurie Elliott who did the embalming. It took a very long time. The famous full face photo of SM where he is lying back was, according to Elliott, taken ten days after death, and after partial embalming. Of course he may be wrong.
@ Furphy
Great find! (Again!!). I’m lining up behind Kelly and Lewis of Springvale at the moment… but I think your idea has serious legs! And Kelly and Lewis might be a dead end.
Here is a well known photo from Kelly and Lewis, just for a bit of fun! (also posted on Carl Webb instrument maker thread)
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-160427131/view
@PAt Missed yours a couple days ago…..Jess and Alf claimed to have only met a couple times for a few ‘froffs’ (coldies….whatever) – I can’t remember the term Alf used (which makes the book a little odd). If that’s true they wouldn’t necessarily tip each other off. But the whole Boxall thing is a very odd segue that is difficult to explain without some larger conspiracy (which I’m not a massive fan of). Then again, everything from the TS/Rubaiyat is inconvenient to explain (see as ever many of the comments in previous posts).
I have been looking carefully at the photos of young C. Webb (kindly provided by Swinburne University and found out by Furphy), and I’m quite certain he is the SM.
What has convinced me is the distinguishing feature of his mouth, the right side of the upper lip line being curved outwards while the left side being curved downwards. Excuse my poor English.
I have compared them with all the available photos, including that of the plaster cast (although the digital forensic reconstruction of the plaster cast is a bit different).
My first impression of the SM’s mouth was that it might have been already showing signs of swelling when the photo was taken, but even considering it, that feature is still consistent. One problem is the poor resolution of the photos, but as I said from the very beginning, I bet he is our man.
@ Simon
You seem to be on the know with Aussie Rules football. I have a hunch that Charlie Webb played for Springvale FC from around 1927 to the early 1930s (they folded into the Casey Demons in 2005). They had an affiliated billiards club (Charlie sold a billiards cue in the 1940s) and they had pie nights (with help from the bakery?).
They won quite a few premierships and there was a photograph taken of the 1930 premiership team, I have a poor copy with some names which is inconclusive. Any ideas for leads on player lists, photos, archives etc?
https://www.melbournefc.com.au/teams/casey-demons/history
I have found Charlie’s nephew’s war service records. I’m wondering if there are photos?
Charles Richard Webb, son of Richard Russell and Amy, born in Camperdown in 1917 V185698
https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/search?conflict=WW2&searchType=NAME&serviceNumber=&surname=webb&firstName=charles&secondName=
Norman Fred Webb, son of Richard Russell and Amy (n.o.k Hilda), born 1921 Camperdown, Leading Aircraft Man 157584
https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=994412&c=WW2#R
I have cross checked these with Births, Deaths and Marriages…
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=6605503&S=2&N=6&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6605503&T=P&S=2
Photo and details of Charles Richard (nephew), who lived near Charlie, at 97 Punt Road Prahran
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=5355632&isAv=N
Details of Norman Frederick born Camperdown 1921 – 2000 records to check!
Matt: John Salomonson and wife Audrey nee Robinson arrived Adelaide aboard SS Mooltan out of Tilbury on 24/9/48 giving an intended address as 33 King St. North Brighton. He was a con artist of the worst kind, an army deserter to boot and his reputation beat him to the colonies see Singleton NSW Argus circa. 1944. He may have met the little lady in gaol, she being mentioned in newspapers for her prize winning handicrafts in the 50s. John La Farge/Farque Salomonson was born in 1910 to a Dutch vader and English mum, joining the Hamshire Regiment in 1940 and his death is unofficially listed as Vic.1964. The ‘witness’ story about meeting him in a pub reeks of some complicity on his own part, possibly as an alibi to keep him on side with the filth.
Jo,
Great pic of Kelly & Lewis, and who knows, maybe CW is there somewhere.
Also interesting to see Charles the second in that Militia record. Not at all unlike his uncle Roy, aunt Freda or “C. Webb” of the Swinburne U/16s.
Given my bias for Occam and the more prosaic, geographically likely options … I concede to the utmost that Kelly & Lewis, Springvale, is a better bet than Raycophone Ltd of Sydney. (NB. Should anyone nevertheless be interested in pursuing the talking pictures bloke, Raycophone’s personnel records, if they still exist, are probably with Kodak Australia, which in 1933 took over the company that had taken over Raycophone a few years earlier.)
@John Sanders
I did say in a subsequent comment that Tony Elliott may have been wrong about the ten days. He seemed pretty sure and it was his uncle who did the embalming. He did say that there were pics taken one or two days after the death but the one that Nick uses in his original post here (which I would think was the most famous one) he says was taken after ten days. See my reply to Pat and the link to the video. On a quick search I cant find any photos of the SM from 1948. Do you have the exact date when the photos were first published in the papers?
If nothing else I certainly rattled Gordon’s cage over at tamam.blogspot. He has written a whole page about me. I am even accused of being you (Sanders). Is there a worse insult? Only joking John. He replied to the contributor who made that accusation “Couldn’t tell you, lost count of the number of alter egos he uses. Troll, stalker and the odd genuine person, you’d never know who you were talking with on that blog.” I replied to him this morning but said that he wouldn’t have the cojones to publish my comment. He can’t even get the name Elliott right. He can’t tell August from December. He also completely misquoted me saying that I said “as we all know” instead of “that we all know” which completely changes the meaning of what I said. He also accused me of being a troll when I have nothing but contempt for trolls. I only made my comment over there because he had mentioned Pat’s and my names. He then pretended to be civil saying “Thanks for that Steve, appreciate your comment…Thanks again Steve, a good discussion to be had” before waiting to pounce on me like a weasel. Who cares?
Steve H… I cannot for a second that they took the photo post embalming. The bastard’s eyes are open. The morticians didn’t nip them shut?
Additionally, WHO took the brain?
That’s the insane bit.
In the Marshall Files ( Which I’ve now been banned from ) there is also a whole post about Gordon Cramer. It includes screenshots and IP addressee’s of loads of Troll comments which are all traced back to Gordon Cramer himself. I must go over to Gordon’s blog and have a look at this post.
Steve H: The News Adelaide 3/12/48 should give you what you’re after, and by the way, apart from his usual fake matey platitudes, Gordon didn’t happen to tell you to “Seek Help” did he? If not then you should be on your guard.
@Gordon (I hope you’re still reading my posts)
I had no idea who you were until someone mentioned here that you had mentioned my name in one of your posts in your blog. I was referring to the SM man photos posted on the internet, not necessarily ‘your’ photos. I’m fairly new in the SM’s affairs and in the amateur sleuth thing. All I have ever done is open a FB account (I hate FB) and post on the Death in Ice Valley (NRK/BBC) group. I have never posted anything about the SM before Nick’s blog, and I have posted here because this was the second link that showed up after Prof Abbot’s FB group (and I hate FB), so I have decided to post on CM. By the way, I couldn’t even find the post where you mentioned my name, but I’ll try again!
I hope you understand that once anything has been published on the internet a lot of copy/paste is done and also photo enhancing, colouring, etc., so they’re not ‘your’ photos any more… My sincere apologies if you thought I was referring to you. As I have stated before on here, I have no personal or nationalistic interest in this case and my English is not good enough to keep up with the jokes, puns and subtleties of the English native speakers, not to mention my Aspie brain.
That said… I still have a basic (and probably stupid) question to ask to you and all others on here: IF that plaster cast was made after embalming, more than a week after death and resembling more like the said photos than the actual SM, why everyone keeps repeating the story of Jessica’s astonishment and almost fainting experience when she saw the plaster cast, if it doesn’t resemble the SM at all?
@Steve H,
Thanks for the link! I am listening to it but I have to confess I have a bit of trouble understanding the Australian accent. So the ‘pathologist’ was actually a GP? And he had already performed 10,000 autopsies?? Impressive!
@milongal,
Thanks for the explanation. I still think it’s odd that people take Alf’s and Jessica’s words as gospel at the same time that they think they knew more than they had disclosed to the police. I haven’t read all that’s available yet, but I’ve watched Alf’s interview and he was very nervous for someone who had only met Jessica ‘a couple of times’.
How about this? 🙂
https://ibb.co/PzXX22J
Glen: That’s creepy. It does look like the guy who murdered the Somerton man, I think you are on to something.
It was provided by someone connected to the Webb family through a family tree site. Who were you thinking Mark? Who murdered The Somerton Man?
Glen: So who is it a photo of?
Pat,
Regarding Alf Boxall: a long, long time ago, here at Cipher Mysteries, I posted about how (based on Boxall’s army service record), the encounters, innocent or otherwise, between him and Jessie Harkness (later Thomson) occurred at a pub, while his then (first) wife was at home, several km away, with their child (or children), and possibly believing that Alf was on duty with the army at the time. Little wonder, perhaps, that Boxall was evasive when interviewed by police in 1949, with wife no.2 in close proximity? (He also, clearly, attracted attention because of his wartime involvement with special operations units, although he seems to have “talked up” these activities, far beyond their real significance, and I have yet to see or hear any evidence that he laid eyes on enemy soldiers, or that he fired a shot in anger.)
Similar reasons may also explain at least some of Jessie’s behaviour in 1949, i.e. perhaps she did jump to the conclusion that someone she knew had died at Somerton Beach. This defensiveness, or over-reaction, on the part of Jessie might be even more the case if the Rubaiyat had been her favourite book at the time and she had been in the habit of gifting it to friends, including boyfriends (and prospective boyfriends)?
To be clear, I am not “exonerating” Jessie; I have an open mind about her involvement, or lack thereof. What I am suggesting, though, is that the connection between Harkness and Boxall is a “red herring” in this context, and only appears suspicious because in 1949 both were in new relationships, in a very straight-laced era, and embarrassed by the unexpected resurfacing of a wartime flirtation, four years earlier?
Furphy,
Thank you very much, It makes sense. I will keep an open mind though, simply because humans are usually nonsensical creatures!
I typed a whole big response Mark but it’s just not loading up. I’ve lost it now and I’m going to have to type it again. I’m using my iPhone and I don’t have a laptop at the moment.
John Sanders
Do you think I give a flying you know what about whether Gordon told me to seek help or not? In my time in Australia I faced down crocodiles. biker gangs, racists, psychopaths, murderers, giant goannas, supernatural beings, corrupt cops, bureaucratic little Hitlers, drunken brawlers, British skinheads, academic snobs, wowsers, yahoos, sea snakes, stonefish, pom haters, donkey shooters, druggies, manic priests, bigots, unruly youths, sharpies, hippies, commies, fascists & etc. I’m six foot tall and walk around with a demeanor that shows everybody that I want the world to burn in flames. I came a cropper in Fitzroy. Melbourne, because I was plied with drink, drugs, and driven around the city on a phantasmagoric joyride that ended in a piffling little stay in hospital. I have spent a season or two in hell and don’t give a shit what anyone thinks of me.
“When I was still a little child, I admired the hardened convict on whom the prison door will always close; I used to visit the bars and the rented rooms his presence had consecrated; I saw with his eyes the blue sky and the flower-filled work of the fields; I followed his fatal scent through city streets. He had more strength than the saints, more sense than any explorer – and he, he alone! was witness to his glory and his rightness.
Along the open road on winter nights, homeless, cold, and hungry, one voice gripped my frozen heart: “Weakness or strength: you exist, that is strength. You don’t know where you are going or why you are going, go in everywhere, answer everyone. No one will kill you, any more than if you were a corpse.” In the morning my eyes were so vacant and my face so dead, that the people I met may not even have seen me.
In cities, mud went suddenly red and black, like a mirror when a lamp in the next room moves, like treasure in the forest! Good luck, I cried, and I saw a sea of flames and smoke rise to heaven; and left and right, all wealth exploded like a billion thunderbolts.
But orgies and the companionship of women were impossible for me. Not even a friend. I saw myself before an angry mob, facing a firing squad, weeping out sorrows they could not understand, and pardoning! – like Joan of Arc! – “Priests, professors and doctors, you are mistaken in delivering me into the hands of the law. I have never been one of you; I have never been a Christian; I belong to the race that sang on the scaffold; I do not understand your laws; I have no moral sense; I am a brute; you are making a mistake…”
Can you provide a link to that paper please John?
John, ok, very interesting about Solomonson. I was unaware…you were a police officer is Austrailia? Very cool.
On the C.Webb thing…I am still confused, no surprises. Is C. Webb thought to be our Carl Webb, even though he is listed as Charles Webb at the College. An alias? Or what did I miss?
With me…even though an sound.perturbed sometimes, I am really not. This is honest!y great, awesome stuff. I almost expect the Maltese Falcon to show up. Even if it turns out to be mundane.
has anyone researched hospitals/mental hospital admittances for a carl Webb after 46?
Peteb: do you recall a similar stuff you (& a colleague) made with W. Jestyn Moulds and Jessica Harkness re supposed voyages from blighty to Sydney in 1943, following leads from ‘good on you Gordon and ferret? …we do, and seems you are not Jestyned to learn from past mistakes. If you are still not convinced and need more evidence on your hot new candidate for whatever reasons that some crazy convinced you to swallow, why not get hold of his service records ala Alf Boxall and see what history it might show to help your case. Don’t bother following your own intuition with Stirling Castle it’s has no legs; I’ve done the research and of course came up empty handed vis., two pax named Jones arrived in June and four in late September 1946, none named Estyn, Jestyn. Best of British and Welsh with Taffy.
Sometimes Johnno, you sound like my mother-in-law.
On the 1921 photo, the boy on the bottom left is positively the young Somerton man. The match with the post mortem is undeniable.
My last word on Gordon Cramer.
Those of a certain vintage may well remember this:
https://youtu.be/wNyhZiWiYYM
Glen: You say regarding the photo you posted “It was provided by someone connected to the Webb family through a family tree site.” So which family tree site did you find the photo on and do you have a link? Was his right ear sliced clean off by someone else or by himself? And what do you make of the lazy eye? That chilling smirk of his further made me think his must be your candidate for murder. But if he is not then who us he and what is his connection to the Somerton man? Was he seen around town at the time? What made you interested in him other than his appearance?
Mark: The picture has been blown up from a really small one and put through a website which restores images. I believe the original has been requested which is currently on a photo film.
Out of interest. There is a Court case in 1960.
Jessie Harkness v FM Gould & A Stott
Under Section 11 of the Public Records Act 1973, this record needs to be assessed for safety before it is issued, as a possible conservation problem has been identified.
1960/267
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/B20E3876-F84C-11E9-AE98-4F12AAB99359
I wonder what this is about? 🧐
@Glen – is that definitely the same Jessie (I remember quite a number of them including one in regional SA that seemed to very nearly fit some timelines around all this)? Why would she revert to Harkness? Did she return to Vic?
There was another Jessie Harkness. However the lady never lawfully changed her name to Thomson so who knows. An inveterate liar. Her son could have been Carl’s as she would let anyone from a Soviet spy to the local dust man have a go on her whilst providing fake ‘medical care’ from her hovel. [Come on, you can do better than this – Moderator]
I am a strong woman. I’ve fought everyone from every country, been everywhere, smashed everything and burnt the lot. I’m 5’11 in stiletto heels and I mooch around with a countenance that says ‘I’m the boss’. My 36E cup breasts quiver like
a freshly set jelly. Did I mention that I am a legend in my own lunchtime and prefer to go on websites and witter on about shit than provide any information?
Edward Said is a crashing great bore and a Turd.
No harm in requesting the above file then.
Glen: But who is the man in the photo?
Katie Dee
You are a humourless little toe rag and a “crashing great bore and a turd”. At the very least Edward Said had a brain. I’m done with this site. There are far too many trolls and the moderation is zero. For the one and only time I agree with Gordon Cramer: “As for the other blog, some thought…They have abandoned their search for the truth in favour of a cacophony of gaslit fantasies replete with a cast drawn from their spectacularly disastrous season of Punch & Judy at the end of Wigan Pier.”
The absolute necrotic nadir came with a comment by Ballfondler69 (laugh, I nearly pissed myself!) on 27 July at 5.16 am on the Somerton Man Identified thread that would have disgraced an extreme far-right incel website on the dark web. Go and drown in a pool of feculence.
The “Charles Webb” who was installing sound equipment in cinemas in 1929 (see above) was probably not the Carl Webb we’re seeking. Other issues of the same magazine (Everybody’s) from the mid-1930s mention a travelling picture show operator from Collinsville, Queensland, named “C. Webb”. That seems geographically unlikely for Carl.
Steve H: that’s super-hilarious, thanks very much for sharing Gordon’s wit and wisdom! I was sure I’d catch some if I waited long enough. 😁
Goodbye Steve H AKA Gordon 👏 👏 👏
Nick, I’ve found your site to be very engaging, and some of the writing (and lingo) is extremely entertaining, but I’m afraid that the trolling is detracting from the sleuthing and sense of community harmony, so I’ll take a break for a bit (not that I said very much!).
Gordon talking about gaslit fantasies seems ironic….Is he still convinced that SM was Novikov….I mean Fedosimov? (I’m sure we can twist it somewhere along the “well of course he was Webb in Australia, but he used the name Fedosimov when he worked for the Russians”)
😂
My attempt at artificially ageing, by about 25–30 years, the C. Webb in the 1922 Swinburne pic, using three different apps. I also played with the aspect ratio a bit and painted out some artefacts of the ageing process.
While these experiments are often a bit “uncanny valley”, I’ve done similar things with known quantities (pics of relatives) and they can also be uncannily accurate. I’ll leave it to others to judge which this is.
(If anyone wants to use this, erm … artwork, elsewhere, I’ll make it public domain, subject to the usual attribution.)
https://ibb.co/68cR2ft
Furhy: Robert Ryan for mine, Gen. Grey ‘Nuts’ Battle of the bulge. Now all we need is a movie pic of him with a beard and we’ve got our Carl circa. 43/48. Well done that man.
John,
😀 Robert Ryan I can see … or some of his contemporaries, e.g. Vic Morrow?
Furphy..’Men of War’ in 1957 had Ryan at 48 playing a front line non com with a bit of a beard , should be able to use that along with some other moustachiod macho Tex/Mex stuff to give the same make over on your Carl which is rather clever in it’s own right.
Furphy: That photo ageing looks really well done.
Furphy, Look on the IMDb website, pics of Robert Ryan “Men In War” (1957)
This image from @Dan’s post of 16 August post – the fella that’s smiling, third from the left, back row, can anyone see if he’s got missing lateral incisors? There appears to be gaps, but need to get a clearer image. (He’s also 3rd from left/middle row in the C.Webb footy photo). No name for him yet, I take it.
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/28d2ecff-42af-4d38-ac08-e47f2c00a192/1/pho020i0009.jpg
Great work @Furphy with the aging image – I’m still tossing up between him and this guy, but yep, it probably is that fella in the front.
No fair Clive I saw him first. Might have gone for Micky Rooney in ‘Bridges of Toko Ri’ but, little Micky didn’t have a beard as luxurant as Carl Webbs before Dorothy got rid of it before his day out at Somerton.
Mary: being shortest player in the team doesn’t work for me, Carl being 5′ 11″ if we subscribe to the original script measurement. Sorry.
John/Clive, I notice that Vic Morrow (10 years younger than Ryan) was in Men of War too. Obviously men who embodied the war-weary zeitgeist. Anyway (tcalss), I hit the “Extra 1940s” and “More stubble” buttons, and voila! The results were more like Robert Ryan, but somehow, ever so slightly, less like SM.
By the way, it struck me, in the process how world-weary even those teenagers in 1922 looked – referred angst from WW1, the Spanish Flu etc … and the poor buggers hadn’t even experienced the Great Depression or WW2 at that point. They all look hard bitten, compared to 15 year olds nowadays, and that adds years to the way they look, by itself.
@John Sanders, fair enough, however he’s definitely had a growth spurt between the 1920 Geelong pic and the 1921, it looks pretty obvious to me, possibly going from 14 to 15, and as a rule will continue to grow till 16. We know Carl was born on Nov 16 1905, so assuming this pic was taken in Oct ’21 our Carl’s about to turn 16. Ah well, I really just want to know if that kid has missing lateral incisors, lol. Is there a dentist in the house?
There’s a b grade movie filmed in 1947 called the Glenrowan Affair that used football players and their various mates to act the parts. It wasn’t released until 1951 and was widely panned by critics. However in some databases, it says that a Ch a rules Webb played Superintendent Hare. Other databases say it was a Grorge Webb instead.
It’s available to watch on Kanopy for free if your interested.
And this Webb bloke, whoever he is does have a passing resemblance but I’ll leave it you you to decide if it’s Carl Webb.
@Behrooz, you were on the lookout for a better picture of Keith Millar – here’s a club photo that names him. Front row, third from left. H’mm, which one is he in the C Webb footy pic ..
https://collection.australiansportsmuseum.org.au/objects/58382/victorian-team-in-new-zealand-season-1924-25-with-team-member-signatures#&gid=1&pid=1
@ Peter Davidson
It’s a pity we can’t just ask the other Charles involved in the Glenrowan Affair – Bud Tingwell that is! So, Charlie has now potentially joined the Kelly gang! Here was I, thinking he was a simply a guy who fixed equipment for WWII signals and espionage work who got mixed up in something nefarious!
Its all getting wildly post modern out there! Can’t he just forget about all these competing adventures and just go back to sliced bread and footy in Springvale!?
I want to compliment Nick Pelling on his attention to and interest in this matter over the past decade. Until his website took up the challenge of SM research all we had were tedious old cranks who were fixated on protecting the reputations of long-dead nobodies (a generous description). This site may not have access to hairs, or boots on the ground and a University professor’s budget and student researchers, but it has punched well above its weight and been responsible for all of the important historical info being unearthed. From one Commonwealth cousin to another, many thanks, God Save the Queen and don’t feed the Trolls.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XOBpWaUB9-8&t=3s
John,
As an aside, I recall reading somewhere years ago, that the real life Gen. Anthony McAuliffe (on whom the fictional “Grey” was based), actually said “balls”, in response to the enemy ultimatum.
Anyway why are we talking about SM having a “beard”? I believe that idea about hair growth after death is a myth(?), so I have tended to assume SM had no more than one day’s growth by dawn on 1 December 1948. In rhat era, a full beard would have made him look very naval or like a bushie.
Furphy: growing a beard makes sense for a number of good reasons, most of all being for his desire to move about town freely without being identified with his former self, either by family or in connection with police matters ie., shonky trading unpaid gambling debts or even anti social political leanings. Amongst other things, the autopsy indicated that Someton Man had likely close shaved on the day of his demise, unusual for a man intent on suicide, so more likely tasked to one better qualified for the job inclupuding a ‘professional’ manicure. My contention as outlined previously is that Carl may have taken to growing a beard and moustache around the time he put his electric razor on the market. Rather than return to his old Gem or Gillette blades as could be expected, seems he opted for a barbers cut throat razor, more appropriate for trimming of beard & moustaches (ask Byron). Your closing comment being “in that era, a full beard would have made him look very naval or like a bushie”, fits precisely with the view police always held ie., ship’s Third Officer according to Det. Leane and ‘bushie’ Det. Len Brown’s opinion from his ’78 TV interview….time for us and all the budding arty farty’s over at DA’s play station to take out their black & grey crayons, shade rubbers whatever and set to work giving our old bushie mate a more in keeing facial appearance for possible post ’43 recognition.
Nick – There are many of us who think the boy in the first row at the very left looks like SM. Could you put his pic beside the SM pics?
Personally, I think it’s the third one in from the right, middle-row. The ears are just as similar, but for me, the shape of the eyes make more sense as people’s eyes look smaller with age. When I see the perceived reconstruction of the Somertan Man looked, I see more similarities with the boy I mentioned.
The biggest feature for me, however, is the eyebrows. If you compare the eyebrows of the decedent with the two suspects, I think you’ll find they match up more with the third one in from right, middle-row. The one who suggested, Nick, has eyebrows that are to long/full.
Just my two scents as an enthusiastic amateur sleuth.
PS: Submitting again to correct a typo or two.
This is amazing.
If this C. Webb is the one we’re looking for, and also TSM, I see only one possible candidate, and not only that but I find the resemblance most convincing. Front row, far left, as others have said.
The boy’s left eye (the one on the right as we see it) being noticeably higher than the other, and his narrow jaw so smoothly tapered from ear to chin, are two supporting features. These are well demonstrated particularly in head-on views of the cast taken of TSM, where the fleshy bits would have been more pushed aside and so the bone structure underneath (which would likely have been more apparent in his youth) is better shown. Interestingly, it’s the same sort of jaw shared by our Webb’s brother as per his known photo.
I also see a good match with the lower lip between this lad and TSM, where it’s a bit thinner in the middle. Paired with the likewise familiar frown-shaped indentation immediately below it, he looks like he’s got a bit of that signature pout, almost as though biting back tears (a rather dramatic impression, I know). And I’m most definitely reaching with this one, but with it having been said of TSM that his calves were “high and well developed”, looking at this boy I couldn’t help but giggle.
One more point! There are only two, maybe three people in this photo with attached earlobes (as our chap TSM had). Of them, only one has ears that, seen head on, appear both pointed at the tops and swept back along the sides of the head in the same characteristic sort of way as TSM’s (as opposed to being more round-topped or forward-facing). This same individual also seems to possess auricular conchae not unlike TSM’s in terms of their basic outline and quite open appearance (at least insofar as we can tell from a single photo of the former). Guess who?
If one were to further compare the ears of this fellow to those of TSM, one might even notice that both subjects share a distinctive difference or two between their left and right. Or perhaps it’s just me and I’ve been staring too long…
In any case, rather than the lifeless man found alone on a beach, I moreso now see TSM as a living, albeit lonesome-looking child, all grown up… and I wonder even more about everything that happened in between: what someone’s life might have been when the most immovable certainty about them is its ending, of all things. I find my sorrow for the boy’s future reflected in his somber gaze.
…But then, once again, perhaps I’ve just been staring too long.
@Jamie I noticed all those same details and I almost certain that’s him. The attached earlobes and shape of the upper ears seal the deal for me but all those other observations re face shape etc are compelling.
@ Jamie: Any doubts concerning the projected adult height of 5′ 11″ and somewhat diminutive build with narrow drooping shoulder line compared with that of the larger frame displayed on Lawson’s SM bust?
@dude47
Facial ID software even says they are the same person. Just like it says this is him probably aged 18 at his sister’s wedding.
https://www.facebook.com/Alexandrina.de.Moravia/videos/612933210441730/?idorvanity=560901994049464
John Sanders:
I wouldn’t be deterred by these particular discrepancies. First off, my impression upon a cursory glance is that this boy’s still got a lot of growing to do. And looking into the subject, skeletal growth in puberty tends to progress “outside-in”: hands and feet first, then limbs (forearms and shins before upper arms and thighs), then the spine, and last come the chest and shoulders. So if we were to compare parts of his body to those of his peers to get a sense of his adult size relative to theirs, it might be more accurate at this stage to do so with more distal parts like the hands, feet, forearms and shins. From what is visible, it seems like his such parts are comparable to the others’. Particularly, his shins being apparently no less than average in length to me supports the idea that he could wind up coming at least even with his peers in height, and one could imagine that these bones might grow even more before the rest of his body finishes playing catch-up to settle into adult proportions.
In reference to the relative drooping of the shoulders, and setting aside for now the foremost notion that, as one of the later skeletal changes to occur, the child’s have likely yet to develop, I would assume that the cast of TSM was taken while he was laying down. As such, it’s my guess that the shoulders probably look more squared than the man’s actually would have been when in an upright position. Your impression of the boy might also be down at least in part to his not having crossed his arms in the same way as most of the other fellows, which could have raised his shoulders more had he done so. I suppose that you hadn’t mentioned the droopiness in relation to his peers, just compared to the bust, nor do I think that my latter point is one of much consequence aside from perhaps to say that the boy’s shoulders aren’t really that significantly different from average (barring in size, maybe, but all that can have changed by the time of adulthood). The arm crossing observation was, however, a little something that I thought might perhaps help to further bridge the gap between the overly squared shoulders of the bust and those of the lad, which do appear comparatively much weaker in this particular pose and stage of life.
I think the bottom line is that this boy’s height and breadth were likely still a way off from their final dimensions at the time this photo was taken. Thanks for your question, John!
David Morgan:
I’m not quite as convinced that that picture is of TSM as I am with the team photo. From what little I can make out when looking at what I believe is the unretouched version, the ears and brows and maybe the nose seem a bit fishy to me… but then again the resolution is so woefully low. Unfortunately, the cleaned up version only makes those potential differences appear more pronounced, at least in my opinion.
But I’m certainly no facial ID software and it would be very nice if it were him! To see a smile on the guy’s face would be a real treat; I suspect it might have been a rare sight even back then.
Hi everyone:
Let me preface this by saying that I know pretty much nothing about football, nor Melbourne, so I could be way off here. But having heard that Webb was apparently still playing at least up until 1930, I decided to see if I could find another team photo. I have found someone whom I think bears a pretty good resemblance to both the (front row, far left) boy in the Swinburne team picture and TSM.
It says that this photo is from 1933, which I suppose would put him in his late 20s. The title also mentions South Melbourne and “Premiership Year”; I’m not sure whether this information helps support or discredit the photo in regard to it being of him, I’m going purely by looks. In my opinion, not only are his features a fair fit individually, but also by how they relate to each other in terms of their placement on the face. If I’ve missed the mark, please let me know! The fellow I’m referring to is seated in the row of chairs, second counting from the right (or eighth if counting from the left):
https://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/item/607438-south-melbourne-1933-team-photograph-premiership-year-overall-30/
And for reference:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQz38VXy1Q9cbDjSUqo3Ylpexbdf4fTbKb1RA&usqp=CAU
What do you all think?
…It looks like my pick might actually be Terry Brain. Sorry, guys!
Although, I do think that the way Brain appears in that particular photo is probably not too far off from how our man would have looked at around the same time, at least in terms of facial form.
Jamie: You’ve missed the MARK by a fair wack, just as Richmond did against Sth. Melbourne in the VFL Premiership of 1933 when they went down by a then record margin to the ‘immigrants’. Sorry but no Carl, Charles or Chas in the victory camp, but plenty of chuckles, had your boy been in the team don’t you think that some of the 75000 fans (for&agin) might not have recognised him from Argus or Herald pics of SM fifteen years on.
John Sanders:
Yup, that’s a good point about all those fans! I didn’t know when I found the picture that it was of a professional league as opposed to an amateur club. Please excuse my ignorance!
@jamie S,
The good thing about facial ID searching is it is repeatable. You can search with the free demo of Pimeyes and find facial ID matches. Some will simply be ancient/modern doppelgangers since they say we all have doppelgangers.
Then you can test the faces you find like I did with Mxface. Carl (18) matches Carl younger (16) but not Carl older (43). But Carl (16) also matches Carl (43).
By deduction a=b=c with facial ID. The only other possible answer is one is a doppelganger.
One feature Abbott told Voshart about was a mole by the lip (left side in an image) but the image quality is too poor to see it. I haven’t seen it in the SM pictures.
I did ask a journalist to confirm the 18-year-old Carl with the family members Abbott are in contact with but for some reason she didn’t after she said she would.
Unfortunately, I’m not wealthy enough to buy a Pimeyes subscription otherwise I might know already. Then again if the Pinterest account is called Family in Australia – it might not tell me who owns it. It would be an expensive non-find.
I think Abbott is happy with the uncertainty and wants to leave Carl in the box as a baker’s boy. I would like to prove Carl was working for Signals Intelligence in Kellow House. That the code is Carl’s jotting of morse code he saw flashing on a ship. I doubt he could know what it meant at that moment. He just wrote it down. The confusion over M and W is obvious as it might be with morse code.
The police seem to be waiting for someone to find the ‘wait a minute’ clue before being forced to give the absolute answer from the DNA. If they can get away with Abbott’s uncertainty they will leave it at that.
@ Jamie & John S
It’s Grand Final Day here in Melbourne! The Sydney Swans (who used to be South Melbourne) are playing the Geelong Cats! I spoke a few weeks ago to an old South Melbourne player who has access to old Springvale FC photos from the 20s and 30s, with player names. Unfortunately nothing definitive has turned up yet… (I have a 1930 press photo with a couple of unnamed players, but it is very unclear). Springvale were a strong local team and won their district premiership several times in the late 20s- early 1930s. I have a copy of a photo from September 1939, where apparently after playing in and winning their district Premiership match, most of the team went to enlist for war service together (this one is clear, with all players named but no Webb). My contact got a bit spooked when the Gordon Cramer’s skull swap story hit the Australian Broadcasting Corporation news feed…!
David Morgan:
Thanks for offering some insight into your process! It’s amazing what technology can do.
I find the Morse code theory most intriguing… who’s to say one can’t be both a baker’s boy AND a supersleuth, besides? None of us are only one thing. And the ones with the biggest secrets can so often seem the most ordinary.
@ Jamie S…could well be prophetic intuition on your part, it being 89 years almost to the day that Souths wacked Richmond in the 1933 VFL final at the MCG. Today on the same hallowed ground, favorites Geelong will face off against the Sydney Swans, forever South Melbourne to it’s unconverted Melbourne based supporters, for the coveted AFL premiership trophy.
@ David and Jamie
I believe that Charlie was an instrument maker/maintenance guy for signals intelligence – given there were so many signals intelligence locations near his home (14 within twenty minutes walk of Bromby Street); the SIGNIT version of “the IT guy”. For me this explains him keeping a low and anti social profile during the war years (no family of friends stepping forward to identify him, selling off the pool cue, tennis racquet and golf clubs), not having an accessible war record and not being recognised by any work mates who would readily step forwards. Eg – if he had worked in aircraft or munitions manufacturing these were large workplaces where there would be work mates who might confer and step forwards. With signals intelligence anyone recognising him might think – “OH S! What’s gone down here…” It doesn’t explain the death, I think that’s another story, but it might explain the silences…
Jo,
It was interesting reading that although messages were encoded by Sigint they were often sent by morse code.
Between 1940 to 1944 there was something like 1 morse code training session every week all over Australia for wannabe pilots or intelligence workers. Perhaps he was involved in setting up these training sessions so people only saw him briefly in many places and he was the back office guy who fixed the morse tappers so the training went ahead. They had some other test of suitability – perhaps an audio test to see whether they could identify dots from dashes. If they didn’t pass that they didn’t get the training.
If people saw him every day in Melbourne he would have had to buy cigarettes somewhere but yet again he could defeat that by ordering Kensitas by mail order. It was always the wife who bought the groceries in the 1940s.
But then I don’t think he could have been a drinker because people in the pub would recognise him. His whole physiology tells me he was not in the pub.
He seems to have lived a very solitary life after his marriage. In the 1920s to 30s you’d imagine he saw 100s of people delivering bread. They would know him well. Though again perhaps he was delivering to wholesalers so he was around the back of the building unseen.
If he was in the bookies placing bets people would know him. If he was a gambler people would know him from card games or the race track. But since no one knew him none of these things can be true.
Also as he had no hat that would be unusual in the 1940s. Most middle-aged men automatically put on a hat leaving home. The hat was an indication of status. But Carl had no hat in his suitcase or on his head. He would stand out. People might view him as dangerous because he was defying society’s conventions.
Jo:
That’s fascinating to know about Springvale! It would be wonderful to see those pictures.
I also think your explanation as to how he’s remained unidentified for so long makes a lot of sense in light of what we’re finding out about him (if he IS Webb, of course, though at this point I’ve little doubt).
Jo & John Sanders:
It appears that my timing was quite the coincidence. Go Swans/South Melbourne!
Jo & John Sanders:
Oof. Perhaps I rather shouldn’t have mentioned South Melbourne in the first place; it seems I may have jinxed them.
David Morgan:
Your use of the term “baker’s boy” has put me in a ponder. I wonder if the Swinburne ringer’s unique way of arm crossing, as if to gingerly cover himself despite having his sleeves hiked so far up, isn’t a by-product of being just that…
Maybe he had a fresh burn or two which the sleeves (or a tighter crossing) might have irritated, but perhaps neither did he necessarily want his marks to be on show for the photo (at least as far as he could help it). Speaking from personal experience, for a few years I had a scar from pulling too far back while taking a hot tray out of the oven. It was located on the lower half of my upper arm, right square in the front. I understand that burns pertaining to baking may also occur anywhere from there down to the fingertips, and perhaps particularly toward the inside of the arm in the case of working with hot trays or pans.
We know that TSM had several such scars. As others have theorized, if TSM is Webb then maybe he’d acquired them at the mercy of the ovens: whether in his youth, or perhaps old habits die hard. In either of these cases, I find the lad’s choice of posture an interesting thing… imagine having to cross your arms over some angry tiger stripes!
Certainly, this pose could however in fact have nothing at all to do with kitchen work or the mishaps thereof. He could have just been a scrawny kid whose sleeves needed to be bunched up that high so as not to be in his way, and perhaps he was feeling uncomfortable about the size of his bare arms at that moment, or simply a tad rebellious, or anything else for that matter. I just thought that this little exercise of imagination might be a bit of fun, and that this particular chap’s peculiar posture was a neat coincidence if nothing else!
David Morgan:
Have you tested the fellow in this (1925) picture of engineering students and alumni with your facial recognition software? The one seated third from the front at the left-hand side of the leftmost table:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/9f69de1b-e197-4e9d-ad72-9223fd83295e/1/pho016i0002.jpg
“Webb” does not appear among the list of names presented together with this photo, but given the resemblance to both the younger footballer and the death mask when viewed from almost exactly the same angle, I couldn’t dismiss the possibility. Just knock a couple decades off of the bust’s current appearance, imagining that the softer bits of the face aren’t so squished (as they would have been from the cast’s weight), and I think they’re a pretty great match… even down to that most interesting ear!
https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*udJqdo0tAIU28k6wlGXhkw.jpeg
David Morgan:
Or, if the boy’s jaw had stayed relatively padded out as he aged, he might have instead turned out something more akin to one of the gentlemen sitting across from him at the same table (eighth seat no matter whether counting from the right or left). I feel like the latter might look a bit more like the famed initial postmortem photo of TSM and that he also resembles certain other views of the bust… but at this point I’m not so sure about my judgment at all anymore; I reckon my eyes need a break!
Please let me know what you find, if you’re interested and it’s not too much trouble!
Jamie S, whoa yes, he’s a dead-ringer for the assumed Carl Webb! It’s interesting too that the guys opposite him look remarkably similar to H. Smith, Mitting and Bernadou, and maybe Marshall. Granted there’s no Webb name on the list, but it could have been an oversight. H’mm, or maybe it’s him but not
C. Webb at all. Look forward to hearing what David Morgan comes up with using the facial recognition software.
Hi all:
Apologies to David Morgan for the bother. I’ve tried out the free portion of the PimEyes site myself using the aforementioned 1925 chap. Perhaps I’ve done something wrong (it’s entirely possible!), but I only got one match and due to the ears it was very obviously not the same person. Tried it again with the proposed alternative just to say I had, but it couldn’t recognize it as a face at all (I assume due to the poor image quality). Likewise with the (much more crucial) testing via mxface, though the 1921 and 1948 pictures appear to be of the same person, neither of them could be compared to the cropped 1925 photo for lack of face detection. I’m not sure what other tricks David might have up his sleeve in terms of IDing faces, but I most certainly have none and at this point I’m loath to pester him further!
Perhaps someone else reading this might have access to other facial recognition or face comparison software, could recommend another free program, or might otherwise want to weigh in? I think being able to compare select images would be preferable, at least for a start: we should probably verify 1925’s identity before looking for potential matches to him elsewhere along the Webb/TSM timeline. Though perhaps a search with the right tools might turn up something compelling, who knows?
Comments, opinions, suggestions? Do you see a resemblance? I just keep coming back to that peculiar ear…
Poppins:
I can’t take the credit! Alexandrina Murray, on Facebook, picked him out almost two months ago:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=5487933017930986&set=p.5487933017930986&type=3
And now, something rather unrelated but very interesting…
Browsing through others’ submitted group photos on this page, I was taken aback by the very stylized W on the name board each time the sign appears: sometimes just within the word “Swinburne”, though in at least one case it’s every W on the whole sign. It always appears at least once: within the college’s name. I think that the letter bears a striking resemblance to those in-between looking ones on the Rubaiyat page. Seeing that there are no other, clear examples of the letter W among the page’s jumble, perhaps that’s the only thing those strange scratchings are meant to be. Maybe it was just Webb’s signature way of writing Ws… a style he picked up in school? A nod to his alma mater, perhaps?
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg
Perhaps I’m late to the party with this, but I don’t recall having heard talk of it before…
Jamie S,
If you simply search with the image reprocessed by Alexandrina you get matches to the original image I found ie. work backwards.
Mxface is a bit more tricky and does require good-quality images .
There is a new younger face that comes with Pimeyes. Mxface shows a 31.84% mismatch confidence score for it tested against the Alexandrina improved version. If you had the original ‘child under 10’ it might be Carl or just a lookalike from another era and place.
If you had a full version of Pimeyes you might detect they were on the same Pinterest site and it could be Carl or another Webb child.
Often brothers and sisters are doppelgangers at a young age. It is only finding facial measurements that match not sex or age.
@ Jamie – I don’t know about the photo, but the W is brilliantly spotted!
Jamie S,
The 1925 image(s) is/are a bit more tricky to get a reading on with facial ID. Really what you need is a high-quality version. You can try scaling the image up with software (e.g. even paint).
I used to use MS Azure demo and it was more reliable than MXFACE but they took the testing option away fairly recently. MXFace also may be using an inferior number of facial points to test. Companies often put out free demos that work faster.
What is needed is someone with software skills to build an MS Azure test page that works like MXFace. Can anyone think of a web developer with a blog interested in the Somerton man?
Ms Azure could also find the face match in a crowd or a video.
If you try Betaface you get an idea of group searching. Though Betaface is less fussy about matches and has an unusual algorithm that can match an object to a face. Though I have found a few matches with it.
Betaface is excellent at creating average images. Your 1925 Party guy makes an excellent average image with the 3D scan – you need to find a Webb face (look at videos of the clay mask) with the right matching angle – or cheat and flip it horizontally so left is right – so the angles match.
Could Webb have been associated with Swinburne as early as 1917? If so, we might have another sighting on our hands… this one is difficult to call with any great confidence as he’s distant, would be so much younger, and he’s even smiling! Because of that, I’d still like to share it.
I suppose Webb would have been only 11 or 12 at this time, but I feel like I might see one or two other faces from the ’21 football photo in the crowd as well which is encouraging. These are Junior boys and staff. It’s not one picture but two, actually. And it’s a BIG group. I’ll do my best to direct you to him.
First up, note that near about a quarter of the way into the group from the right, just a couple rows in from the back, there are a pair of boys tilting their heads toward each other. The one I might propose is just below their overlapped shoulders:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/8b5ec2d1-1bd9-4122-8bab-f46ed8853474/1/pho019i0009.jpg
For the second, count five rows in from the back and four from the right. He’s the right-hand one of a duo wearing lapel pins:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/deec94d9-cec4-42a5-b03b-82caaa46f617/1/pho019i0010.jpg
Eye on the right higher than the other, a broader nasal bridge compared to many of the other boys’, the baby fat of his cheeks appearing to be concentrated into strips that sweep quite markedly down and out from either side of the nose (I mention this as its remnants might still be visible by ’21, though only just), a gracile jaw, and the ears…
I know you must all think I have a major ear fetish by now but I really do believe that TSM’s are so very distinctive, not only in how they differ from average but how they differ from each other. Looking at them head-on:
-The one on the left is attached just a bit further down the head than the one on the right.
-The top of the left ear points more outward away from the face, while the one on the right projects more upward.
-The ear on the right also seems to be a bit more altogether forward facing than the other which makes for a rounder outline from the tip down to the lobe, mostly in the lower half (though, looking closer, this lower curve includes two very dulled points). The corresponding line of the ear on the left is straighter and more direct, but there is a slight point outward about halfway along as well as a little inward dip just below the tip (however, as an aside, I imagine that even a small turn of the head might render one or the other of these left-hand features invisible).
I think this boy’s ears share quite a bit in common (from what little we can see) with TSM’s, particularly in the first photo (the second appears to have been taken from a much higher altitude). They might appear more rounded than the wing-like appendages we’re looking for, but that could be due to either his age or the photo’s vantage point, or both.
Thanks for coming to my talk all about ears. I don’t know what happened but I guess I live here now.
Anyway, IF this lad is the ’21 footballer and the ’25 engineer’s party attendee AND TSM, well he’d certainly had quite the glow-up in his youth!
David Morgan:
Derek Abbott has turned off commenting for the Facebook post we were active on, just as things were getting good! Not sure why he’d want to do that.
I wanted to mention to you there that the page which the party photo is from mentions “old engineering Swinburnians” in the picture’s title. If your recent question was about trying to suss out whether Webb could have been there if he weren’t a day student, it seems he could have been: he might have already left the school and thus could have attended as an alumnus.
Though admittedly I don’t know the meaning of your question; I suspect I must be missing some context. Sorry if I misunderstood!
Another point which MIGHT help to connect these TSM nominees: the power of friendship?
I certainly could be wrong here, but look at the guy (five rows in from the back and five in from the right) just to the left of the previously mentioned 1917 boy:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/deec94d9-cec4-42a5-b03b-82caaa46f617/1/pho019i0010.jpg
And now look at the one (second seat in from the front at the left side of the leftmost table) sitting just in front of (beside) the 1925 possibility:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/9f69de1b-e197-4e9d-ad72-9223fd83295e/1/pho016i0002.jpg
Perhaps the same person?
When I said that the ’17 candidate was part of a duo, I didn’t think that the relationship went any deeper than incidentally-coordinating accessories. But maybe it does… not too many of the group seem to be wearing lapel pins, and of the others that are, I don’t think any of them are grouped together. Perhaps they match because they’re buddies?
Even if these two new subjects are the same person, it doesn’t mean that either of the two potential Webbs beside him are actually the real deal; the close proximity across both photos could be purely coincidental and even if it’s not, his friend could be someone else entirely. But it just might be a good sign!
Jamie,
In the 1st group photos I don’t see anyone near the head-tilters who looks like Carl. But in the 2nd photo I picked out the lapel button pair. It could mean Carl had a close friend who conspired with him to be able to find themselves easily in the school photo or they had some sort of prefect status (a senior pupil who is authorized to enforce discipline) in the school. Possibly they wore badges to be identifiable as discipline enforcers – the school ‘Push’ – a word that was popular at the time for gang enforcers.
I think Abbott’s admin is a bit over-zealous to shut down the discussion. A bit like comments on newspapers shutting off. They definitely don’t like me to comment – allowed only 1 per day. I can’t upload a picture. I had an email reply when I asked him about the sketches and he responded “Twitter” – a great academic source. All he had to say was it was created by XXX. Not too long to type. I had to use Pimeyes to track the image to Vanity Fair to find the artist.
@Jamie S
I wondered whether the boy next to him (with the lapel button) was his friend and whether it was Vernon Lisle (Lisle Clegg). Perhaps there is a picture of Vernon Lisle when he was younger with long dark hair.
https://www.australianmusiccentre.com.au/artist/lisle-vernon
If so, then it would be strange he didn’t identify Carl working alongside his nephew Leo Keane in TV and radio in the 1950s.
Jo:
Looking at it through the “W” lens, it seems that same letter in his signature is even a stylized version of the Swinburne/Rubaiyat one!
https://ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/07/image-3.png
@ Jamie
Yes, for me the W linked Charlie as being the code writer…
I don’t think he’s in the 1917 Swinburne photos as he was in Camperdown until 1918, listening to the Camperdown Entertainers & studying for his Merit Certificate…
@ David – do you reckon the one post a day thing will catch on? It’s very easy to send those thought bubbles off into cyberia!
nickpelling:
Have you been following everyone’s attempts here to ID more Webb/TSM photos? How about the “Swinburne W” theory? I would appreciate your thoughts on either or both!
Jamie S: I’ve been following them, yes – and as my old friend Mr Grace used to say, “you’re all doing very well”. 🙂
I’m currently thinking about what SM thing to post about next, and these are two very strong candidates.
Jamie,
This is in no way proof that the boy next to the Carl ‘suspect’ (with the button on the lapel) was Vernon Lisle – but it makes it a possibility to try to find another image of Lisle to check against. If Vernon Lisle was Carl’s Swinburne college friend it might explain his nephew Leo Keane getting a job with him. It is always who you know in Radio and TV land (I guess).
This is an average image of the boy next to the Carl ‘suspect’ and Vernon Lisle. If nothing else it is proof the Betaface software is very good at doing this. The ear positions match etc.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ullgWtGxsYUIWzl9FfCJNwafovhwNW1s/view?usp=sharing
Just for a giggle, how about another potential Webb sighting in the “Electrical Engineering laboratory” sometime in the ’20s? This is more of a joke as I doubt there’s any hope of confirming it (being so dark and blurry), but I sure did laugh at his expression! Have a look at the fellow farthest to the left, in the background (of course he just HAD to be one of the farthest away, standing in the dark!):
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/c571094f-8815-4e2b-9c0c-4870e90b7a2c/1/pho009i0070.jpg
Caught mid-sneeze, perhaps?
David Morgan:
Ah, I see your rationale! The nepotism angle makes sense. However, I don’t really think our fellow in question much resembles Lisle (granted we only have one photo for reference). That’s certainly not to say that Lisle and Webb weren’t friends, though, and perhaps he IS in there somewhere nearby, or in a photo yet to be discovered…
I think if we could find out just who Mr. Cheekbones is, if he’d been friends with Webb for so long then maybe his family might have some more information about him and their social circle, which might just include Lisle. Perhaps they could show us more pictures, too!
@Jamie,
I know absolutely nothing about facial recognition software, I only have my own weird brain to count upon, and it tells me that our 1921 footballer boy aka Carl Webb is not in those photos. Regarding the Swinburne ‘W’, that’s an excellent theory!
@ David Morgan,
Maybe try to find the film version of the book ‘Robbery Under Arm’ in which Clegg was supposed to take a juvenile lead?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32804012/2821823
Carl is here, along with Marshall and Wilson, amongst others. I have spotted him in nanoseconds…
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/c1e14b9d-074a-4ad8-aa78-6f5b65980d73/1/pho019i0017.jpg
Pat: ah, I know about this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_G._Hall
“Hall intended to follow this movie with a version of Robbery Under Arms but decided not to proceed because of uncertainty arising from a ban the NSW government had on films about bushrangers.”
@Nick,
That’s a shame, thanks!
Wowee, well spotted Pat, yep, that’s him. H’mm, my previous carl suspect is lookin’ pretty tall there … perhaps he’s standing on a box or something.
Not sure if you’ seen this photo of Lisle from 1982 …. it’s the second picture and it names everyone in the shot.
https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20180313162118/http://apraamcos.com.au/awards/1980-1989/gallery-1982-1989/
@Poppins,
Yay, thanks! 😎
Pat:
Yes, I believe I know which one you mean as I’ve seen that picture before along with another from Dan’s previous contribution to this page. I do think that those look like our supposed Webb as well, though I must admit that if all five instances are actually him, then it’s like the top and bottom halves of his face took turns growing rather than doing so at the same time as one might expect. These two crops on either side of ’21 are apparently from some time during the prior year:
https://ibb.co/j6gZhwg
I’m no expert on juvenile development, but it does strike me as very unusual!
Hi Pat, good work as always, the same with you all folks.
Pat, not sure which one you mean among them in the photo (you mean in front row, fifth from left?). However, this new one (unless I missed reading about others finding it) is clearly another photo of C. Webb, fifth from right, back row. If yours is the one in front row, fifth from left (I am not sure about it, though) he is wearing the same coat as in below link, about which I have no doubt (unless the person we have been looking turns out to be not C. Webb).
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/a8789c73-8dce-4816-b010-383eb99d49a4/1/?search=%2Fsearching.do&index=10&available=44
Junior boys, 1920 — 04
Class photos, Junior boys, 1920.
Year
1920
Now that I am here (not to continue often), I might as well share the following.
Just for the sake of leaving out possibilities, a while ago I contacted Australia’s “name change” site at NSW Land Registry Services http://www.nswlrs.com.au (where they handle name change searches), to see whether Dorothy Jean Webb at any point in life formally submitted a name change (not to be confused with any resulting from re-marriage). The formal response was that she did not do so. Just for the sake of another possibility, I asked them to do the same for Carl Webb (just in case he had not died and did a name change for one or another reason). The result was also negative (this one was expected). I have the formal response letters, if needed. They were very kind and accommodating, and I must say Australia is very good with all this archiving and their being accessible. I am hoping this will prove to be true for the following as well.
Jo and Nick and others interested, especially those of you living in Australia: I sent a letter to the supreme court as follows a few days ago. I am not sure if they would ever respond. However, if there are sufficient queries by you along the same lines by researchers, it may work. You may even put a word in supporting my request, citing the letter, if it makes things easier.
Jo, I think if you apply using their online form, offering research as a reason, along with explanations such as I have included, they may at least give you a copy of the divorce files, since you are in Australia. If any fees are involved, I will be still glad to reimburse, if it is reasonable and known in advance.
It is really absolutely important that Dorothy’s divorce file be read directly and in its entirety. The text are the most important source for TSM case. Unfortunately, the unofficial team have offered details that are at times even in themselves inconsistent. Dr. Fitzpatrick who kindly at least is more forthcoming with the details (Dr. Abbott used to be meticulous in the past, not sure what happened in updating his archive for TSM), in one interview says Carl left before Dorothy, in another she says Dorothy left before Carl. More specifically, in one interview on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcsNwj_S1js, Dr. Fitzpatrick states that Dorothy left Carl in mid 1947 and he left her shortly after that (34:24 minutes into the interview). On her Mind Over Matter interview at https://www.spreaker.com/user/mindovermurder/mom-ep-194-final, however, she says he left her on April 1947, and she left him on Sept. 1947 (13:45 minutes into the interview). Pat was right that they can do better, and at least have some notes to reports from. These serious researchers tend not to take seriously informing others in a proactive and documented way, yet joke about others’ selfless research, which actually are helpful to them, by calling them minions. With the actual documents (as Nick had pointed out). We do not know what else is in that file that others for reasons or narrative biases of their own have not publicized.
In any case, I hope others help us read the file for ourselves. Frankly, I think it should now be publicly available in fairness to all, as I have explained to the supreme court.
Here is the letter I sent out (see here https://www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au/contact-us/judicial-support-contacts):
——
October 2, 2022
Supreme Court of Victoria
(By way of Viv Mahy, Executive Associate to
The Hon. Chief Justice Ferguson
[email protected])
The Honorable Chief Justice Ferguson,
My name is Mohammad H. Tamdgidi, Ph.D. I am a sociologist residing in the United States, having been previously an associate professor of sociology at the University of Massachusetts Boston, and being presently an independent scholar, author, and director of OKCIR: Omar Khayyam Center for Integrative Research (https://www.okcir.com).
I have recently been conducting research on the Somerton Man case in Australia, having authored “Tamám Shud: How the Somerton Man’s Last Dance for a Lasting Life Was Decoded — Omar Khayyam Center Research Report” (Okcir Press, 2021, see https://www.okcir.com/product/tamam-shud-how-the-somerton-mans-last-dance-for-a-lasting-life-was-decoded-omar-khayyam-center-…etc and an updated blog report recently, titled: “Doubting the New Somerton Man Findings: Do 0.01% Error Chances Actually Matter in Science?” (see https://www.okcir.com/doubting-the-new-somerton-man-findings-do-0-01-error-chances-actually-matter-in-science/).
I am writing this letter to request from you, by way of this letter and further explanations to follow, to kindly consider authorizing the release for research purposes—in the interest of fairness to all divorce parties, their descendants, researchers, and an international interested public at large—all the filing papers and documents related to the application filed in 1951 (granted in 1952) by Mrs. Dorothy Jean (Robertson) Webb to divorce her husband Carl (Charles or Charlie) Webb in Melbourne, Victoria, on the grounds, in her view at the time of filing, of his desertion.
As you are aware in light of recent findings about the Somerton Man case, the Somerton Man has been reported by an unofficial team of researchers to have been Carl Webb. South Australian officials are still in the process of investigating the case and the newly reported findings. Therefore, if the recent findings are confirmed to be true, at the time Mrs. Webb filed her application, apparently unbeknownst to her, her husband Carl Webb had passed away on Dec. 1, 1948.
The state of affairs that has arisen as a result of selective disclosure recently of Dorothy Webb’s divorce file in a limited fashion to some and not all has become increasingly unfair not only to the divorce parties and their descendants, but also to the majority of researchers and public at large who have no access to the actual documents and texts.
It appears from the public comments of the unofficial team members that they, or those in contact with them, including perhaps some in the media, have had access to the documents. It is not known what has prevented them from disclosing the entire documents and texts, and this may be a result of restrictions placed on making the file contents directly available to the public. But this has also apparently not prevented them to disclose some material selectively, resulting unfortunately in often second-hand and impromptu comments by pundits giving interviews on public air, disclosing some but perhaps not all aspects of Mrs. Dorothy Jean Webb’s divorce application texts. At times, the quotations from her text have been in fact inconsistent and contradictory with one another, and it is not clear what have been disclosed have been accurately reported or not. We do not even know if there are other pieces of information in the texts that have, for one reason or another, not been disclosed, resulting in biased evaluation and assessment of her reasons and motives for divorce, or of her portrayal of Carl Webb’s life and character during a difficult period of his life when he had lost many relatives to old age or war, suffering from illness, leading perhaps to his suicide in Nov. 1948. Wild speculations have circulated around as a result of partial and limited disclosure of her file contents, such that the judgments passed can no longer be reversed or clarified without full disclosure of all her application contents.
The limited disclosure of Mrs. Webb’s divorce file to some, but not to all the interested, has led to the situation where judgments are being made of her and her husband’s private lives without any way for independent researchers to verify for themselves in a reliable and accurate way what transpired. Mr. Carl Webb, if confirmed to be the Somerton Man, was not even alive to defend himself and to respond to her characterizations of his character and conduct. Conversely, also others not having full access to her texts have characterized her intentions as biased and unfair, or even criminally motivated, resulting in the further deepening of the puzzles surrounding this seventy-four-year mystery. Unfortunately, at a time when new findings about the identity of the Somerton Man are supposed to help resolve the case, a procedurally selective and limited disclosure about her divorce filing has resulted in unnecessary creation of new puzzles and misunderstandings about the case.
Although the divorce filing by Mrs. Webb falls in a period that requires specific application to your offices for disclosure, researchers and interested public not residing in Australia do not have the possibility of effectively filing the forms required. Besides, even its disclosure to other persons such as myself selectively—while restrictions remain in place on the disclosure of the file contents—will not help clarify and correct any misreporting already done, since it will place restrictions on even what I can disclose to others regarding one or another aspect of the case. In fact, unfortunately, such disclosure restrictions, if they have been placed on others previously, have not apparently prevented their selective leaking to the public, at the cost of distorting what Mrs. Webb had to say about her own or her husband’s lives and conduct during their troubled marriage commencing in 1941.
Therefore, I respectfully ask your honorable offices to consider this request for public disclosure of all the divorce filings of Mrs. Dorothy Jean Webb, so that all can independently access them on whichever archival site your offices choose or is customary for the purpose. If doing this, as a one-time action, requires someone to pay for fees, I would be glad to pay any reasonable fees to do so, as directed. Having seen the forms, I am afraid I do not reside in Australia to file the Affidavit required, and the questions asked for the purpose are not, in my view, directly relevant for this case, given the request I am making is for a public disclosure of the documents and file contents.
Specifically, I am requesting your consideration for public disclosure of all the divorce records filed by Mrs. Dorothy Jean Webb in 1951 and its conclusion in 1952 with the granting of divorce. The case file has reportedly included a text 7-8 pages long, about which recently some information has become public selectively and second-handedly without the possibility of independent verification. But there may be more text unknown to independent researchers. The individuals involved are Carl (Charles or Charlie) Webb (birth C. Registration number 3146 / 1906) born in Nov. 1905, and Dorothy Jean Robertson (birth C. Registration number 17944 / 1920). They were married in Oct. 1941 Registration number 16701. The divorce was officially granted in 1952 (Dorothy Jean Webb, nee Robertson, instituted divorce proceedings in 1951 on the grounds of her husband Carl Webb’s desertion). The newspaper ad accompanying her divorce filing was as follows:
From The Age 5 October 1951: “To CARL WEBB, formerly of Bromby-street, South Yarra, but now of parts unknown. —Take notice that your wife, DOROTHY JEAN WEBB has instituted DIVORCE proceedings against you on the ground of desertion, and that unless you enter an appearance in the Prothonotary’s Office of the Supreme Court at Melbourne on or before the 29th day of October, 1951, the case may proceed in your absence, and you may be ordered to pay costs.” (Advertising (1951, October 5). The Age (Melbourne, Vic.: 1854 – 1954), p. 15. Retrieved July 27, 2022, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205334969)
The Honorable Chief Justice Ferguson,
Given the limited information available, public access to the actual records is important for proper and truthful research and understanding of what transpired in this long unsolved case in Australia, and in the interest of fairness to both parties of the divorce Dorothy Jean Webb and Carl Webb, all their descendants (dead or living), and independent researchers.
I greatly appreciate your time in reading this letter and in your consideration of this request.
Sincerely,
Mohammad H. (Behrooz) Tamdgidi, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Sociology (ret.)
UMass Boston
Editor, Human Architecture
Research Director at OKCIR:
Omar Khayyam Center
for Integrative Research in Utopia,
Mysticism, and Science (Utopystics)
http://www.okcir.com • [email protected]
…
Thanks,
I have been able to find Vernon Lisle (aka Lisle Clegg) probably how he looked around WW2. I was hoping to find him in the school photos to see where he stood in relation to Carl.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DcWGCUcCQxLTwFtiGZAZumXsy8GqDKJF/view?usp=sharing
Surely this can’t be a teenage boy in with the Swinburne group of boys in the 1920 picture?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cfR8Vo9rvBvFnIQFFjQ_gOaZIzYmmwep/view?usp=sharing
He looks like he has the same build as the 43-year-old Webb. Was he a teacher at Swinburne?
Pat:
My mistake! The crop on the left, the one from your photo, is actually technically from the “1920s”, not necessarily ’20 itself. Trying to be as correct as possible with these things!
David Morgan:
The supposed Webb in this picture is wearing a pin as well. I do wonder whether they meant anything special?
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/a8789c73-8dce-4816-b010-383eb99d49a4/1/pho019i0014.jpg
@Poppins,
Re-reading some of the old posts here, I have to admit that Dan had already spotted him in that photo!
https://ibb.co/j6gZhwg
I’m spending some time reading old posts and it’s amazing how much good information is on here. Giving the fact that new leads and info are always popping up, some theories can be interpreted under a new perspective and reveal some interesting facts that didn’t make sense when they have been posted.
That said, I’d like to ask what has happened after you have posted, for example:
@Nick
Have you had any reply from the Swinburne Library?
‘Jo: thanks for the offer! I’ve already asked the Swinburne librarians, and – from what I’ve read over the weekend – the Swinburne Library seems to have a ton of stuff relating to its Swinburne Technical College years. (And if that fails, there are still exam results in PROV for that period to be had.) So I’m optimistic they will be able to answer the question of whether their “C Webb” was indeed Carl Webb, though we’ll have to wait and see how much information about him they have. But if we get gatekeepered too much (you can never tell in advance), I’ll be sure to ask you to ask your friend for help. 😉’
@ Jo
Could this be one source to follow regarding the divorce papers?
‘An interesting post script is the conversation I had when I handed the volumes back to the desk. I told the bloke at the desk, who was just starting his shift that those navy blue volumes contained details of the Somerton Man. He told me that a woman had been in recently and had accessed something relating to the Somerton Man and the Supreme Court. I asked if it related to a divorce, he believed it might have! If there is something there that I can access I’ll return and take a few photos!’
David Morgan:
Good call! With it being such an unfamiliar concept where I’m from, the idea of prefect status didn’t occur to me. It seems that the badges of Swinburne prefects, at least by 1938, looked like this:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/39769ac0-459f-429a-8aed-43c5c4597c45/1/pho019i0298.jpg
The pins on our suspects look roughly similar, though we can’t see any designs they might have had. However, given around two decades, I imagine that the design may have changed anyway.
@ Pat
I saw the PROV guy again & it was Richard Augustus’ will that the woman had been in to view. My friend who works at Swinburne has a historian contact, who wrote a history of Swinburne. If there are specific things we want to know I can follow this up.
Well done, all!
Actually, knowing that the group photo shared by Pat and Dan is from the 1920’s and not necessarily ’20 itself (as I’d mistakenly thought) is quite helpful. Thinking that both of these crops were from the year prior to the one in the middle, I was having trouble reconciling the changes in the overall shape of his head across time (if one is to believe they’re all the same person):
https://ibb.co/j6gZhwg
But what if the one on the left came after the football picture? I’ve checked through Pat and Dan’s photo to see if the other ’21 boys present appeared older. From the ones I could pick out, it’s close but certainly feasible. If all five potential instances of Webb WERE him, I think that such a sequence would make for a much smoother and more believable progression of head shape from appearing relatively narrow as a child to broader as an adult. And now that I’ve realized that that chronological order is possible, I’m encouraged.
Assuming that our Webb is also TSM, I suggest the following timeline of his appearances:
1917. Near about a quarter of the way into the group from the right, just a couple rows in from the back, there are a pair of boys tilting their heads toward each other. The one I might propose is just below their overlapped shoulders:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/8b5ec2d1-1bd9-4122-8bab-f46ed8853474/1/pho019i0009.jpg
1920 through to the next year or two. His age progresses from right to left:
https://ibb.co/j6gZhwg
1925. The one seated third from the front at the left-hand side of the leftmost table:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/9f69de1b-e197-4e9d-ad72-9223fd83295e/1/pho016i0002.jpg
1948:
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/94a9765c488a386d41b15708de625ce4
Thanks to everyone who helped along! This is really cool.
@ Behrooz – good to see you back again!
Pat: yes, the nice people at the Swinburne Library got back to me, but they didn’t seem to be aware of anything beyond the images they’ve already uploaded, not even the Swinburne-related results books in PROV (that Jo so kindly took a trip to look at), so I suspect we’ve already mined more from the archives than they thought possible. :-/
Regarding Beverly –
I’m starting to think that the grandchildren that had been born by the time Joseph died in 1951 were listed in order of birth and that perhaps, Beverly is an offspring of Ernie’s marriage with Jessie.
John., Leslie, Teddy and Joyce were John Ivor’s children with Jennie born after 1925 when John and Jennie (known as Jean) were married. (Much older grandchildren.).
“Ernie” married Jessie in 1942. It’s possible they had a child Beverly before Ruby had Brenda in 1946.
Joseph Gavey’s Obituary:
“GAVEY. —On August 13, at 29 Greville street, Prahran, Joseph, dealy beloved husband of Clara, loving father of Ernie, Ivor, and Ruby, father-in-law of Jessie, Jean, and Roy (deceased), grandfather of John, Leslie, Teddy, Joyce, Beverly,
and Brenda, aged 80 years. –At rest.”
Ernie is “Andrew (Ernie) Arthur Ernest James Gorman”. He is Clara’s son born 1900-1968. He married a Jessie Winifred Watkins in 1942. (They divorced in 1954.)
Ivor is “John Ivor” who first married Jennie (Jean) Lesueur. (Before the big switch up!)
@ Jamie S.
Regarding head shape, don’t forget that young Carl is wearing a cap (?) in that photo (the one with the basketball hoop). Almost everyone is wearing it, apart from his pal Austin Geoffrey Marshall, good looking lad!
@ Jo @ Nick
Thanks!
@ misca
‘Mary Delaney!’ Who is she? hahaha
Re Beverly (Beverley), it makes sense that she was Ernie’s daughter, but I haven’t found any Beverly (ey) Gavey yet.
@ Behrooz
Good to hear from you and thanks for requesting the divorce papers! Another inconsistency in Fitzpatrick’s interviews is that she said Eliza Amelia Webb’s maiden name was Stephens (or Stevens) when we know it was Morris and then Grace. The worst thing imho is not knowing where Bute is actually located before giving an interview about Dorothy’s whereabouts when she filed the divorce papers (she later corrected it, but nevertheless quite sloppy).
Re Beverley… maybe she’s Beverley May Gorman who married John Douglas Smith in 1962 in Sydney.
@ Jo and @Pat, thanks.
@Pat, now I see which one in the photo you were pointing to. Sorry, I had missed also Dan’s finding in the past that photo and the other one I was pointing to. Re. CF interviews, I agree with you re. other examples of sloppiness. I am sure she means well and thanks to her actually we have something to consider, but one does not have to be a Rocket or DNA scientist to appreciate how important it is for the sake of science to share the evidence and the papers in a proper, independently readable and verifiable way to all folks. From the way she looks down on those she calls “minions”of others (as she jokes about in one of the interviews) it appears she does not feel they also deserve respect and at least an explanation of why she or others have not come forward with the actual divorce papers fully months after the July announcements. If I hear back regarding my letter, I will let all know.
Jamie,
You missed.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HxiYBHT2iYtFHJyQZA7IHzn8yyyWn0vv/view?usp=sharing
I am also intrigued by this guy who looks like Webb when older.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cfR8Vo9rvBvFnIQFFjQ_gOaZIzYmmwep/view?usp=sharing
He can’t be Webb as it’s the 1920s but is he the Swinburne sports teacher?
I’m still not sure about the two ‘new’ pics, but here we go…all the candidates together. Looks like he’s gained some confidence over the years… and the Mona Lisa’s smile…
https://i.imgur.com/c8mMkgu.png
Regarding Fitzpatrick’s mistake or slip saying Eliza Amelia was nee Stephens…
Both Peter Davidson and misca have already pointed out that her sister Mary Jane Morris married a Stephens, namely Anthony George Dyer Stephens. I have seen on Amelia Grace’s death record that he (A G Stephens, son-in-law) has been the informant of her death.
So, was it just a mistake or did she give away the name of the family that has provided some DNA on Carl’s mother side as per misca’s theory?
David Morgan:
I’m still not so sure about that picture as there are just a couple of features which don’t look quite right to me… though it’s otherwise a brilliant match! Is there some additional context that might make it much more likely to be him particularly? I would certainly accept this fellow as a relative of Webb’s but perhaps not the man himself, unless there’s some sort of image flaw making things appear as they weren’t.
Regarding your second photo, I personally don’t see enough resemblance to find it very striking. Is there a particular reason for your interest?
@jamie
The images are poor quality – but MXface can match the boy with the button.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CwQ7UsDB5EJLWGv6rtS-DkoRtwgZAeP3/view?usp=sharing
If someone has good software that improves the suspect images (but doesn’t modify with AI) that would be useful.
If you search Pimeyes with Roy’s face you find one link seems to be to SAPOL. Do the Australian police have Roy Webb in the frame not Carl?
Why are the Australian police discussing Roy Webb behind the scenes?
Pat:
Thanks for the collage! I think it’s really helpful to see all the faces together.
David Morgan:
My main “dealbreaker” issue with your Webb candidate is, to little surprise, the ear. The one on the left looks about how we’d expect, even seeming to point more laterally than the other: so far, so good. However, the one on the right appears to have a concha that’s too small, its boundary delineated by the lower black patch. Further, the upper black patch, which seems to separate the helix from the rest of the ear below it, would mean that the helix is far too thick. And indeed, that’s how the enhanced version has portrayed things. No bueno.
However, upon a closer look, I imagine it’s not impossible that these dark spots might in fact mark entirely different boundaries. If, say, the lower patch marked the cavum, and the upper patch marked the margin between the cymba and rest of the ear, then that whole area in between and even including the marks would actually be concha. Checking out TSM’s bust from the closest angle I can manage, I think that this hypothetical concha’s size and shape could match up nicely if this were the case. For it to be true, the border between the lad’s helix and the rest of his ear would have to instead be somewhere above, where there is no outline nearly as apparent as the other two. I find this very strange, but perhaps not impossible given the photo quality we’re working with… or maybe it was a trick of the light?
So, I’m now more receptive to the idea of him as Webb. All other things considered, he definitely bears a strong resemblance. What do you know about this picture? Any details that help link it to our particular chap as opposed to anyone, anywhere, or anytime else?
David Morgan:
I forgot to mention another big potential problem I had with the photo (it’s also ear-related… shocker!). The enhancement gave the ear on the left quite a big lobe as opposed to reading that lighter area as part of the background (which it does look like it could be, although admittedly it’s not super clear either way). If the ear actually is as it appears in the more modified picture, then I very much doubt that this could be the Webb we’re looking for.
Out of curiosity, what makes you say that the fellow is probably 18? Was there a year attached to the photo?
Jamie,
My interest in the assumed teacher is his familial likeness to Carl aged 43. His shoulders slope like an Aussie rules football player – like Carl. If you didn’t know the timeframe and I said it was Carl many people ‘should’ agree. I assume he was the Swinburne sports coach in 1920 or had been a player like Carl.
Note the younger Carl image is an average of several Carl images. The fact that Betaface says the average of Carl is a lot like the teacher is just interesting. Perhaps he was the role model he aspired to look like or an actual relative.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ovUIUbF1ydeUZmUrUj9YZVBDkdts8y6s/view?usp=sharing
David Morgan:
I think if your mystery man is stood along with the students rather than in the separate row behind him where all of the staff seem to be, then (unlikely though the photo makes it seem) he’s probably a peer to the boys. He might just look old for his age… but in any case it’s not to say that he couldn’t be a relative; that’s certainly possible.
@David Morgan, Carl and Roy looked very similar….
@Em @Jamie
There is no 16-year-old boy with a face or shoulders like that. I just thought it would be useful to find the name of the 1920 Swinburne sports coach and track him back to his playing days pre-1920 to see what he looked like.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18JH7x8MJEyWZYzp_UuCXwQ1S-UtmQwFe/view?usp=sharing
David Morgan:
I could be wrong, but I think that the fellow you’ve picked out might be the boy pictured, funnily enough, just below (fifth from the right) our potential Webb in the photo from 1920, and that he’s simply going through an awkward stage later on in the schoolyard photo:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/a8789c73-8dce-4816-b010-383eb99d49a4/1/pho019i0014.jpg
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18JH7x8MJEyWZYzp_UuCXwQ1S-UtmQwFe/view
I believe that this boy could also be I. McLaren, who actually did play football and did develop exceptional shoulders compared to many of his peers, as you’d pointed out. Those shoulders seem to have been particularly notable earlier on:
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/7588defd-2347-47ce-a816-c429151062ab/1/pho020i0013.jpg
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/9d54a27c-0ef4-4a9a-8dfc-d93de92054b2/1/pho020i0014.jpg
Again, I may be wrong!
For what’s worth, a D.D. Griffiths & a T.P.Hoey were Senior & Junior Sports Masters, respectively in 1925 (“The Age” 24 Sep 1925 Page 6)
Don’t think your pick for Carl Webb is correct. If you zoom in on the left ears in the photo you’ve posted with your man and the deceased, you can make out that your choice has a hanging ear lobe where it joins the side of his head, whereas the deceased has none. On the other hand the young fellow immediately in front of your choice in the first group photo (bottom left corner) has the same flat lobeless ear join at the side of his head as the deceased, he’s my pick for Carl Webb. 👌🏼
Dan – from August 16, your second jpg link (junior boys 04). Absolutely deadset front middle is our man
I get strong SM vibes from bottom left – none of the other faces really click for me.
Is there any way to find out from the Swinburne school records whether or not a C. Webb was a prefect in the year of the picture with the pin on the jacket lapel?
@sandra
It is likely the idea of ‘prefect’ was copied from English public schools. Also in the early days of Grammar Schools the prefect had the power to punish. Often it was a simple punishment – like write out 100 times ‘I am an idiot’. Though more sophisticated prefects would make the victim write out some biblical verse or quote from Shakespeare, In public schools it would be tasks like clean shoes.
There was also the concept of the head boy or head girl – which was the hierarchy of prefects. Prefects might have a round badge whereas head boys or girls might wear a shield.
These prefect roles were usually reserved for children in their final year which may be a contradiction if Carl was wearing a badge when younger. Perhaps a system of merit to tell other children they were the smartest or team captain.
David,
and there were “Class Captains” that served as sort of junior Prefects. And students were allocated into “Houses” modelled on the British system I think. That was the case with my high school 1959-63 in country NSW.
Sandra: your prefect pin on one of the Swinburnian C. Webb nominees is most likely be a ‘Gould League Bird Lovers’ society lapel pin, an organisation which was founded in Australia about 1909 by then Prime Minister Alfred Deacon, reaching the pinnacle of it’s of it’s popularity upon Alf’s passing in 1919 just after WW1. Your rather well spotted badge cum tie pin may give some clue as to SM perhaps being into ornithology. If it Turns out to be in fact could be why he showed up at Somerton beach, a bird paradise, late afternoon on 30/11/48…to spot migrating shore birds arriving from the arctic regions no less.
@ John Sanders
The Gould League lapel pin and Charlie dying whilst watching migratory birds is pure Australian poetry. I imagine Charlie would have an appreciation of birdlife after growing up in Camperdown. I imagine he visited the spectacular Camperdown Botanical Gardens, up on a ridge overlooking the volcanic “lakes and craters” country below.
I like this interpretation very much.
Byron: I also went to a NSW country High School (occasionally) 1960-63 but don’t recall there being “houses”. Certainly had them in primary school where various events like bag racing were hotly contested by houses for penants and honours at term end presentations. I still remember most our teachers from my formative years but not a one from Tamworth High with good cause; house names like Brisbane Fitzroy and Farrer are still recalled as mortal enemies and sore losers. Of course I was also in the Gould League of Bird Lovers Society and as such a Keane shooter of introduced pest species and those thought to be nest invaders like cuckoos and migrating crows from other states. So what fine instutution did you attend and what did you think when flavoured milk in third pint bottles became all the rage about ’57.
John, Cooma North Primary and then Monaro High. The milko would deliver the bottles that had been sitting in the sun for hours. But he got paid all the same. It was a vote buying exercise.
Another name to tick off in the C. Webb footy photo, the chap in the front row, second from right, I’d say that’s A. West – the resemblance to Palfrey West in the other football photo is seriously uncanny.
Per chance, can anyone put up that 1921 football photo with names over each who’s been identified so we can see who’s left, that’d be just fab.
Here is a list of full names for those in the photos (l’ll try to add to this via PROV school records….). There may be additional later or adult photographs of some of these people – NAA War Service files, Trove searches etc.
D Whitfield = Donald Whitfield
M Millar ?
A Alderson = Alan Alderson
J Wilson = John Wilson
R James = Ronald James
R Hulse (may be in 1921 Elementary Modelling)
J Scott
C Webb = Charles Webb
A Marshall = Austin Marshall
A Dubberlin = Alan Dubberlin
H Ainsworth?
C Orriander = Charles Orriander
T Anderson ?
F Ward ?
A West? Palfrey West?
W Hunt/ (check Elementary Modelling 1922)
B Stockfield
R Taylor?
G Wilson = Geoffrey Wilson
H Derrick = Edgar Derrick?
K. Millar (Keith Millar)
Dubberlin, Allen Edwin
B. Stockfeld, Brian Arnold Stockfeld.
@ Jo
I have added some bits to your list.
D Whitfield = Donald Whitfield (1906 -1979)
K Millar = Keith James Millar (15 Aug 1907 – 13 July 1971)
A Alderson = Allan Edgar Alderson (1907-1953)
J Wilson = John Wilson
R James = Ronald James
R Hulse (may be in 1921 Elementary Modelling) = Thomas Reginald Hulse (1906-1971)
J Scott
C Webb = Charles Webb (16 Nov 1905 – 30 Nov 1948)
A Marshall = Austin Geoffrey Marshall (1906 – 1984)
A Dubberlin = Allen Edwin Dubberlin (1907-1981)
H Ainsworth = Harry Alfred Ainsworth (1908 -1971)
C Oriander = Charles William Oriander (1906 -1979)
T Anderson ?
F Ward ?
A West? John Palfrey West (P West on another photo) (1906 – )
W Hunt/ (check Elementary Modelling 1922)
B Stockfeld = Brian Arnold Stockfeld (1906 – 13 June 1971)
R Taylor?
G Wilson = Geoffrey William Wilson (7 April 1907 – 1979)
H Derrick = Edgar Marsh Derrick (10 July 1905 – 25 Sep 1975)
@ Pat – nice work! I’ve checked for NAA files for the first few, no luck yet. Hoping to get to the PROV next week…
Thanks @Jo and @Pat, that’s wonderful, great to see their names listed there. I’ll see if I can get that imgur thingo and will try and put the names over their image in the footy pic so we can see who’s left to identify. It’s driving me nuts that I can’t pick out Keith Millar too, lol, there’s a few photos I’ve found of him but still can’t spot him. I seem to have become obsessed with the lives of the entire class!
@Pat, if you have a look at the 1922 Senior Football team with the names, the guy on the end, P West is Palfrey, and I think he’s the brother of Arthur or Albert West, they’re darn near identical. I found some notices about ’em in the newspaper, from a big family. Cheers
@ Poppins
Thanks! I thought they were the same! On MyHeritage I could only find John Palfrey West.
@ Poppins
Can you share the notices about this big family? Because John Palfrey West was the only son of Mrs and Mr A E West, of Caulfield, according to his wedding notice.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206453513?searchTerm=%22palfrey%20west%22
I have no idea if ‘our’ P West was Palfrey btw! I only followed Jo’s hints.
@ Poppins
Never mind! I have just found the notice of his dad’s death.
WEST.—On the 2nd October, at 20 The Crofts,
Richmond, William James, the dearly beloved
husband of the late Louise Marie Eda (died
August 30, 1928), and loving father of Arthur,
James, Albert, Cyril (killed in action, 1916),
George, Louise, Eva, Grace, and Palfrey West.
A patient sufferer at rest.
So, A West is Arthur or Albert?
@Jo
Erase John, it’s Palfrey West, haha
Palfrey West was actually Palfrey J. West
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1898331?searchTerm=swinburne%20technical%20palfrey
Our footballer from 1921 must be Albert.
@ Pat – Palfrey may have been shortened to “Alf” as he seems to be the right age Palfrey is an unusual name.
Carl is bottom left in the original football photo from 1921 with the hole in the glass window behind the team.
Having just seen the trailer for the ABC’s Australian Story “My Name is Charles” I think we have all been barracking for the wrong player.
I think he’s the one behind the sign… The family photograph (Charlie, Roy and parents) is fairly unclear on the ABC footage so I guess we’ll all have to wait until Monday 21 November for a better punt (the show will also be broadcast on YouTube, so you should be able to see it from anywhere).
I’m now also giving serious reconsideration to the 1930 Springvale Football Club Premiership photograph sent to me by an ex player back in August. There is a tall unnamed player in the back row. Again, it is a very unclear photograph and my football contact hasn’t been able to find an original photograph with names. We were going to try the Springvale Historical Society one Thursday…
I haven’t been able to get to the PROV this week due to work deadlines and I’m still on “availability pending” for Gladys’ probate documents…
On the bakery, I found a street number some time ago in an old Sands and Mac and it is 233, not my original pick. It is now a hardware shop and Taekwondo centre, in a later era building…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-17/my-name-is-charles-somerton-man-mystery/101668074
Trailer for ABC, Australian Story “My Name is Charles”.
Monday, November 21st 8pm AEST
Carl’s dad is sporting a tie with non conforming US style arse about stripes, having same tastes in fashion as Somerton Man speaks for itself I guess.
@ Jo
I stick with ‘our’ original Carl 😉
Russell Richard Webb for mine Gordon, dead spitter and I’d reckon on your Pavel Fedisomov being behind the camera.
Palfry John West or John Palfry West (1906 – 1999) became an engineer. His records show both versions of his name. He has a brother Albert Edward Stanley West (1891 – 1981) so, it doesn’t look like he’s the footballer. Other brother is Arthur Gibson William West (1887-1967); seems unlikely to be our A West either.
Yeah, I think I’d like to pick again from the board after seeing the Australian Story photo, lol.
Just going back to the Annual Social Gathering 1925 photo, the only names from the 1921 footy photo there are Marshall and Taylor – perhaps our Carl suspect is in fact W. Taylor.
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/9f69de1b-e197-4e9d-a
Thanks Jo for all the great research you’re doing. I’m gonna head out when I get some time off soon to check out the old Essendon Gazettes at the library, see what I can find about the Scott’s.d72-9223fd83295e/1/?search=%2Fhierarchy.do&index=1&available=3
Good on ya, thanks Misca, haha, that would explain why Palfrey looks remarkably similar to the A. West in the footy pic!
Ah, I think this news article is describing the people in the Swinburne Engineering students 1920s photo, h’mm, description seems to match up; 1927; good to see all the names. And the fella I thought was Carl next to the girl is probably R. Milledge.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146462749?searchTerm=swinburne%20old%20collegians
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/bb125687-2336-4c28-a34d-952b1a5e22b9/1/?search=%2Fhierarchy.do&index=16&available=64