If you look Carl Webb up in the Victoria electoral rolls (and indeed on his marriage certificate), you find him describing his job as “electrical fitter” (up to 1939), and then “instrument maker”. What do these mean? I certainly didn’t know; and from the looks of things, nobody else had much idea either.
Luckily, there seems to be a single right answer…
Industrial Pay Grades
Enthusiastic online commenter Pat in Brazil found a helpful presentation on the RAAF (warning: Prezi motion sickness alert on PCs!), where the most interesting part was grabbed from a 1940 article in Trove (of course it was).
I don’t believe that the RAAF invented any of these terms, they seems almost certain to have been the standard industrial pay grades for technical factory work used in Australia circa 1940.
Carl Webb’s Workplaces…?
Up until about 1939, we know (also from the Victoria electoral rolls) that Carl Webb was living in the Webb family home in Dandenong, before then moving to South Yarra. So if we’re looking for his places of work, these should be the two starting points.
After 1939, I think it probable that Webb (who seems not to have done any military service, despite being fit as a butcher’s dog) was working in one of the rapidly expanding Melbourne munitions factories.
His father-in-law Jack Comber Robertson was Inspector of Munitions, so perhaps Webb met his wife-to-be at a munitions factory social event, such as a 1940 dance? Perhaps this will appear in Trove, who knows?
As for before 1939, I briefly speculated whether Webb might have worked in a munitions factory in Dandenong itself. However, commenter Catherine (“Dandenong gal born and bred”) never heard of a munitions factory in her area, so that seems like it was a tad over-hopeful on my part.
All the same, Dandenong did have a good number of other factories, so I think it would be far from mad to bet that Webb worked in one of those.
Maribyrnong?
From about 1939 on, it could easily be that Webb worked at Defence Explosive Factory Maribyrnong. But that is a huge topic, which I’ll leave for another day (and to make sure this post doesn’t blow up too much). 😁
Maybe this one https://wbtools.com.au/blog/did-you-know-warren-brown-manufactured-tools-for-military-purposes-during-the-wwii
‘William H. Warren lived nearby at 58 Stirling St. which he had thoroughly renovated in the new (1920s) Bungalow style. While the company dates from before 1928 it was not until c.1939-40 that the site was substantially improved when the present stylish office facade was probably added. Warren & Brown were jobbing engineers but had a reputation for sophistication in their work. The works has in recent years been part of the Footscray Institute of Technology (now VUT) campus and at least one building has been leased for a commercial retail use.’
Maribyrnong Heritage Review
Volume 3
Historic Places
Industrial places in the City of Maribyrnong
Jill Barnard Graeme Butler Francine Gilfedder & Gary Vines, 2000: Volume 3:1
‘Instrument making’ and ‘electrical fitting’ in the Index to Examination papers of the School of Mines and Industries Ballarat
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5c942b9e21ea751110fb07ee
Pat: sadly, Warren and Brown Pty Ltd’s factory was in Footscray (I believe), which I believe was too far from Dandenong to sensibly commute in the 1930s.
On WIKITREE:
Karen Dartnell
Good Evening – I’m still communicating with my Aunt after she received a request for some family albums. I have most of them in my possession and I’m having a good look through them. I’m hoping to provide Carl & Jean Webbs wedding photo. I am based in the United Kingdom.
Karen
posted an hour ago by Karen Dartnell
Nick, thanks. I thought it was interesting from a historical point of view…
Can someone read German gothic fonts? I think the ‘Johannes Friedrich Weber’ mentioned in the Hamburgischer Staats-Kalender from 1854 and 1856 available on Google Books can be Carl’s grandfather.
https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/Vta2/bsb10003373/bsb:6298979?queries=Weber&language=de&c=default
Nick: I don’t have access to electoral rolls. Does it mention a number on Springvale rd.?
Glen: Let’s hope it’s real! Jean? Hmmm…
She has deleted her comment on Alice Stratford’s photo… hmmm…
Pat: the electoral rolls just say “Springvale Rd., Springvale”
Thanks, Nick!
SPRINGVALE
During football playing on Show
Day, Mr. C. Webb, of the bakery,
fell and again injured his leg, thus
placing him on the resting list.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201081257?searchTerm=bakery%20springvale
Dandenong to Footscray (about 45km) might be an unlikely commute in the 1940s but it is plausible. One thing Melbourne has always done better than the rest of the country is transport (especially trains). I don’t know Melbourne’s transport system very well (especially back then – A vic might like to correct me) but I could imagine a train into Flinders St (these days it looks like it often needs a transfer at Richmond, but…..) and then a tram out to Footscray (I know even less of their trams other than it’s a comprehensive network and I *think* there used to be a depot out Footscray way – although 3 min of google suggests the Footscray network wasn’t part of Melbourne Metro until 1954 (when it was linked in at ….Maribyrnong) – so perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick….).
In any case, unlikely, granted – but neither impossible nor even implausible,.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201298961?searchTerm=webb%20bakery%20springvale
Mr. Charles Webb is away, camping
at Moubulk, and his bakery position
is being carried on by Mr. Jack
Norris
15 March 1939
Through health reasons Mr. R.
Webb has sold his bakery business to
Mr. Patterson, of East Malvern, who
Fix this texttakes over this week. Mr. and Mrs.
Webb have been factors in our pro
gress, and have been great sup
porters in all local functions, and they
will be missed.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201305795?searchTerm=webb%20bakery%20springvale
@Pat (I’m no expert on gothic fonts, but) I read the one you posted to me reads:
Herr Carl Freidrich Heinrich Weber…..
TOTALLY UNRELATED
Why does that make me recall the story of John Friedrich (A Victorian fraudster whose real identity has never been proven with any certainty, who seems to have tried to make the National Security Council of Victoria into some sort of paramilitary operation in the 1980s)? Most people say he was Johann Friedrich Hohenberger, but I’ve never been that comfortable with Immigration records showing he cleared customs, but a subsequent speculation he never boarded the plane (Henley Beach train ticket anyone?) and became John Friedrich.
Fabulously interesting here, great finds, hope you don’t mind me dropping in.
Just re the previous bakery posts, found a few things that may be of interest re the bakery. If the it sold in 1939 and the father passed, could that be when Carl started to learn his trade. The bakery in one of these links says R.H. Webb Bakery,
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215709515?searchTerm=Webb%20bakery%20springvale%20dandenong
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201305795?searchTerm=r%20h%20webb%20bakery%20springvale
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201028250?searchTerm=r%20h%20webb%20bakery%20springvale
PS: How the least interesting man in the world became the most interesting man in the world …. possible book title?
It’s a long way away and it doesn’t entirely fit what we know (maybe) there’s a note that an RA Webb leaves a Shepparton bakery in 1914 after “5 years good work”.
This appears to be the Richard A Webb who was caught selling light loaves….
There seems to be (non specific) reference to the large “flock” of kids Webb has – which seems possibly consistent with our Webb – unless we’ve mixed up some details.
But that makes a difficult timeline….
Russel Richard born 1893 in St Arnaud (near Bendigo/Horsham ~250km North West of Melbourne)
Freda Grace b1896 Dandenong (borderline Metro (maybe not then) 45KM South East)
Galdys May b1897 (Prahran – Melbourne Metro)
Doris Maude b1901 (Footscray – Melbourne Metro)
Roy b1904
Carl b1905 Footscray
Then roughly ~1909-1915 there’s a Richard A Webb, Baker in Shepparton (about 200km North of Melbourne) – also doing good work as chair of the Free Library Committee
Around 1928 a Mr Webb takes charge of a bakery in Springvale
In 1930 C Webb is injured playing sport (I think Aussie Rules) in or around Springvale
Then there’s Pat’s camp and the ultimate sale of the bakery in the later 1930s…..
It’s possible these are all the one family under Richard August – but might there be crossed data from 2 different Richard A Webb (Baker)?
@milongal: Thanks! A friend has translated it: Collectors of taxes on Market and Petty Trade: Mr. Johannes Friedrich Weber.
According to the blog of German immigrants in Australia, Herr Weber was a passenger in the ship “Friedrich der Grosse” arrived in Port Melbourne, February 1901. I haven’t found a passenger’s list for this particular date yet.
ADDENDUM/Source
23/4/1912
At the Shepparton court on Tuesday Lyle Carter was fined 21/ and 23/ costs for
having in her shop six 41b. loaves under weight. A charge against Richard A. Webb was adjourned for 14 days, as the evidence was that the inspector took from defendant’s cart five 41b. loaves and weighed them, and one from a customer’s house. It was contended that the inspector must take at least six roaves (sic) out of the cart. The Bench was divided upon the question, and the case was adjourned to secure the attendance of another magistrate
There’s more information 12 May (I think saying the judges still don’t agree, but it’s very poor quality).
I *think* something like
SHEPARTON: Tuesday: A Case in which Richard August Webb baker was charged with selling ??? loaves which were under weight was ?? ??????????
I might try to revisit it later, struggling to read it:
trove newspaper/article/11672076
And then article 45233175 (10/8/12)
INSPECTING BREAD.
VICTORIAN-FULL COURT
An inspector seeking evidence for prosecution against a baker, on a charge of
selling light-weight bread, cannot take part of the bread from the baker’s
cart and part from a customer of the baker. The matter came before the
Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Hodges, and Mr. Justice Hood in Melbourne on
August 5 on an appeal from a decision in the Shepparton Court of Petty Sessions. The case was one in which Reginald Brown (inspector of the shire of
Shepparton) proceeded against Richard August Webb on April 3, at the Shepparton Court, and Webb was fined £5 5/, with £4 17/ costs. An order nisi to
review was obtained, and on the application that it be made absolute coming
before the Chief Justice in the Practice Court last month, he referred the matter for the consideration of the Full Court. The grounds of the appeal
were:-(1) That neither the information nor the evidence disclosed an offence; (2) that the evidence showed that the informant weighed only five loaves found in the defendant’s cart ; (3) that there was no evidence on which the justices properly acted as to deficiency in the weight of the bread weighed by the
informant.
Mr. Schutt and Mr. Dethridge appeared for Webb to support the order; and Mr. M’Arthur and Mr. Cussen for Brown, to show cause.
It was stated that on March 20 the inspector stopped the defendant’s cart, and took five loaves, which he weighed, and afterwards obtained a sixth from a
customer next door, and also weighed it.
The Chief Justice, in giving the judgment of the Court, said that when the matter was partially argued before him, he inclined to the opinion the Court now held ; but as the statute was one that had to be administered in relation to many people, he thought it wiser that the definite opinion of the Full Court should be obtained. Section 6 of the Bakers and Millers Act contemplated the baker and all his shop, and also the customer to whom the bread was sold and delivered. The inspector, might, without warrant, at any reasonable times, examine all parts of the baker’s premises, or his carts or other means of transit, and might weigh and try the bread wherever found. But the words “wherever found,” used in the
section, had, the Court thought a limited meaning to some extent,” Nobody
supposed that it could be exercised to the fullest extent, so that an inspector
might anywhere at all seize and weigh bread, whether with or without the consent of the private person who owned it.
If the Legislature intended that, it would have said no more clearly. A person was not at liberty, therefore, to take five loaves from a cart, and then go to a private person and get a loaf that had been sold and delivered to him. If at the bakehouse or cart there were six-loaves or more, he must, for the sale of average and fairness weigh six. He might weigh as many more as he found convenient. Of bread was delivered to a customer the customer might weigh it and had his remedy. But the intention of the Act was to keep the two positions asunder. The inspector might pursue the baker and his bread, but not on private premises, and the purchase must take care of himself. The order nisi to review would be made absolute, and the conviction set aside with costs.
There’s a lot more about the light-loaves if interested.
There is also a Miss P (Pearl?) Webb and (presumably her sister) Miss A Webb who are farewelled having played organ and sung in Benalla in 1916 to move to Shepparton.
Only reason I mention this I thought there was some confusion before about a RA Webb baker in Benalla…..so we seem to potentially have a lot of RA Webb’s who are bakers (and more broadly there’s a lot of other Webb Bakers all over Victoria).
I’m also starting to think that at least one of these RA Webb’s might have been a councillor in the regions around Shepparton….
It’s exactly the sort of tangles we’ve learnt to expect in SM matters.
I wonder could Derek’s nominee Carl having been a lecturer at Cranbourn Tech. Close by Dandenong the facility had been taken over by the RAAF early in the war for it’s training of aircraft fitters. Plenty of related wartime info on line for those still interested in Webb as a contender for SM and seems to be quite a few class pics and the like….some might have connected my mention recently of a Carl Tomsen having been a baker?. There’s a short item in the Dandenong rag from 1933 about y’man having worked in father Dick Webb’s bakery at Springvale.
Peteb: thanks to Gordon’s amazing powers of observation, we can at last dispell claimed likeness of brothers Ron & Carl that has found general acceptance. Only thing close for me apart from their semi closed eyes and similar hairline of which SM’s was post autopsy, is a height variation of a mere 9cm which is diddly squat right?. Back to your point on there being no happy snaps of Carl, you can rectify that by going through a thousand AWM & RSL class pics of the RAAF Brunswick & Footscray Fitter’s courses of WW2. Many of the staff seen posing with the students had been RAAF seconded, qualified tradies and except for one gentleman of colour they all be the absolute spitting image of our long lost Carl.
This “instrument maker” classification is very curious to me. Perhaps he was adept at fixing special parts on “balloons” Nick? I am not familiar however. Did Australia ever have any sort of eary aerospace industry or secret facilities ala Area51, where this guy could have worked? It seems unlikely to me, however not impossible. Thats a lot of space down there albeit, quite dry, where you could hide such things.
Matt
Matt: “instrument maker” is just slightly quaint industrial terminology from the time, nothing clever or mysterious. The RAAF article from Trove quoted in the post describes it quite well.
It’s no easier trying to fit the details of his ‘suspicious’ death into an acceptable narrative even when we know who he was and what he was, the pieces still do not fit together. His lividity, the TS slip, the Rubaiyat, Jo Thomson, Prosper Thomson, lack of ID, his pockets rifled, the proximity of his body to 90A Moseley St, the phone number (s) written on the back of the book, the code, his medical condition.
It’s all still a jigsaw no little thanks to the pathetic police response.
To avoid confusion please substitute Cranbourn in my penultimate post for Brunswick in my last which is the real deal.
Pb: it’s still early days and the good professor is already camping on the Webb family doorstep, no doubt trying to get them to confirm his latest bullshit speculation, sorry, eerily inaccurate hypothesis.
He’ll find a few morsels, sure, but he doesn’t seem to have twigged that all the answers lie elsewhere.
PB: have you ever heard of a big city born precision instrument maker (bomb sights) with tanned legs, no false teeth, up country vac. marks a foreskin along with Sydney made clobber and cut throat razor/strop, plus a self employed missus? Not at all likely in my non expert opinion…unless he was a horses hoof of course in which case Dude 4711 might be consulted.
milongal: I’m pretty sure the Springvale R Webb you found (who takes over in 1928 arriving from Oakleigh) is our Webb. There’s a lot of later entries that reveal he’s a “Richard A” and, I guess most importantly, a short obit from Apr 39 that gives his age as 73. “…a fine, man, righteous in all his undertakings, and philanthropic in his ways.” – a line that seems to be backed up by newspaper entries over the previous 10 years [nearly all in the Dendenong Journal with a few in the Argus].
One of his charities was to “place training quarters at the disposal of the [cycling] club” (doesn’t say how) and the 25mile cycling challenge reportedly started and stopped at the bakery at least one year. May reflect nothing other than a realisation that hungry cyclists are good for a bakery business, but there’s been a lot of cycling chat over the years because of calf sizes and its popularity at the time.
Looks like Derek’s stay in the limelight with Webby has been eclypsed by another beach body reported by the news hungry ABC ; behold ‘The Gentleman’ from Heliogoland an isle in the North sea. Seems in 1994 the traumatised and weighted body of a well dressed chap was hauled in by German police, but subsequent investigations drew a blank with ID &c. Now Perth’s Murdoch Uni. Lab sleuths have been able to determin from all the usual RNA and DNA pointers
that their bloke was no Gentleman at all, but rather a fair dinkum, true blue, ridgey didge, dyed in the wool,
Joker from down under. Mock up photos of our home boy looks a lot like SM in his nice clobber, but nothing like Roy Webb. Thank Heavens the heat’s off, now we can resume our fair dinkum Jerry Somerton enquiries.
Nick Pelling: “….lie elsewhere.” well put and oh so apt.
Milongal, Richard August Webb, died 2 Apr 1939 at Bethesda Private Hospital and was a Freemason. “The Age” 3 Apr 1939 Page 11
What are you ciphersleuths trying to say about Derek Grabbit’s theory? That Carl isn’t the Somerton man?
Interesting, when you look at the Webb family, their DOB & Deaths-none of them lived to a good, old age? I’m wondering if there was some medical condition that ran in this family.
Jamie: a breeze through the Argus has an R. Webb (Roy?) riding in a senior pro 36 mile club event at Essendon in ’38. Also an E. J. Webb was a ‘wheelman’ back in 1898 (SAO E. J. Webb’s dad?)…Anyone interested in researching pro/am cycling in the thirties might have some joy with our boy Carl.
Clive J. Turner: being a bit picky mate; the old man had a fair run at 73, Russell 56 and Roy died through lack of care in a POW camp. As for Carl we have no idea unless you go along with Derek’s SM ID which is loosing support rapidly. The girls didn’t do too badly for that era either, especially mum who hung around to well beyond the average use by date for a woman born in the 1870s.
Miss Fanny Balding: [*sigh*] it’s more that Derek Abbott does get a lot of curious/funny/wrongheaded ideas along the way, which he then bigs up to the media, and then (eventually) reluctantly drops as the over-speculative hogwash they plainly were from the start. If you ask him about these (as I have), he’ll say (along the lines of) “oh no no no, I clearly flag these as hypotheses when I talk to the press”, but when I’ve talked to those same journalists, they say that this simply wasn’t so.
At the same time, I’ve met plenty of other academics who drop all their hedges and nuances like hot bricks when talking to the press, so this is far from unusual, however annoying it may be.
Well, I found this tidbit to be downright weird—The original burial service in 1949 for Somerton man (NOW know to be Carl Webb) was conducted by ‘Capt. E. J. WEBB of the Salvation Army’!
Mary Spencer: it’s a lovely coincidence, though my current belief is that the two were entirely unconnected (family-wise).
Thanks Jamie & Clive – I guess the point I was sort of getting to is that there seems to have been at least 2 Bakers called Richard August Webb in Victoria and possibly at least another RA Webb – and that some of our details seem to have mixed them up (I can’t remember if I even looked at Benalla)…..
I don’t think the light loaves (and Shepparton) Webb is our papa Webb, and (not knowing the source) I’m not even convinced all the kidlets listed in the post are siblings.
Even further off topic, I think the 2 Webb sisters (who played/sang at church) were Pearl and Annie….
I am sure that the Capt. Webb who conducted the funeral service in 1949 for Carl Webb was NO relation. That was not the point of my post. I merely thought it was kind of a creepy coincidence that he had the same name.
milongal: with reference to our Papa Webb it might be noted that in his 1914 Application For Citizenship, he Swore that since arrival in Australia aged 22 in 1888, he’d resided at Richmond, Gippsland, Camperdown, Seymour, Dandenong, Yarraville Shepparton and now at 163 Davies St. Brunswick. He is married with three sons and three daughters so ID is not in doubt, which takes us back to Nick’s under weight loaves in 1912. Also note that August 1914 marked the outbreak of WW 1 and Australia joined with it’s allies to take down belligerents Germany, Austria-Hungary and Turkey etc., So Reg didn’t have much choice but to become a dinky di Aussie did he?
Could this be our 17-year-old ‘Charlie Webb’?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76198944?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FM%2Ftitle%2F253%2F1922%2F01%2F21%2Fpage%2F7433602%2Farticle%2F76198944
The Richard August Webbs seemed to be a bit of a mixed bag religion wise, the pater himself presumably protestant (Lutheran/Freemason) with Roy C of E on inlistment and Carl likewise according to his marriage certificate; Yet first born Russell and at least two of his sisters were Papists when they passed. Guess there’s nothing we might connect their faiths with, though something might bring em into play along the path to discovery.
Milongal, On NAA there is a Richard August Webb, born 18 Jan 1888 in Nurnberg, Germany. Occupation a baker. He lived at 163 Davies St, Brunswick, Vic. On 12 Aug 1914 he applied for a cert. of naturalization. And, he had 6 children, 3 male & 3 female-this seems to be “the’ Richard A. Webb?
Should we be able to fit Carl into having been involved with trade school teaching secondment to RAAF Brunswick Tech. to run fitters courses during the war, that of itself would naturally rule him out of contention. This, bearing in mind scores of former gratuate attendees being likely to compare his phys. with SM’s mortuary shots from newspapers headlining “do you know this man”. If these same people needed more convincing, all they’d have to do would be to check their old class photos in which the lecturers often posed in their civy attire centre front row.
No Clive, see from my post yesterday where I reported1888 as being Richard August Webb’s arrival year in Australia. Dick was born in 1866 from memory.
Milongal, you know Adelaide better than most … was Hindley St on the line to Henley Beach back in ‘48?
I’ll have to dig again – to me the kids’ birthplaces didn’t seem to be quite consistent with a temporary move up to Shepparton for a lustrum or two (and there was a few other inconsistencies from memory).
In any case the story of the 5 loaves (oops 6 loaves) and no fish (although there was a Fishmonger Webb floating around somewhere too) is kinda interetsing (not from an SM point of view, but the story itself)
I think I ended up getting caught up on some different Webbs….
Like a Chas E Webb at Springvale in the same time papa was there, disappears and another reappears around 1940 (disappearing 1950). Somewhere in that time there is a funeral for a Charles E(dwin?) Webb in Springvale (who from memory is almost certainly not this Webb, but lots of interesting thoughts on that). Or a few grave-transcription type people who seem to have some Charles (sometimes E) Webbs that don’t seem to appear on more public cemetery records…..(in particular was trying to track one down for Enfield (SA) d1978 (from memory Charles Edwin).
Crumbs!-I made a mistake with that one, sorry.
PB: Yep, T. Cleland the procrastinator, J. Cleland the facilitator, Stanton Hicks the colaborator and Stuart Littlemore the extrapolator. Can’t get any more banal or boring than that my man.
‘Mr. Webb, motor salesman, with Caudwell’s Motors, of Dandenong, had sold a car No. 162754 to Mr. Pike. He remembered learning of the accident on July 10.’
Sorry, this is from Trove but I didn’t get the link.
Pat,
“Could this be our 17-year-old ‘Charlie Webb’?”
Unlikely, as that letter is from the Perth Mirror, and refers to places and things in Perth, around 3000 km from the Webbs’ known habitat.
This is a long shot, and it’s probably not the right part of Melbourne, but … there is a “C. Webb” who is the right age, in this interesting hi-res pic of the 1921 Swinburne College under-16 football team (link below).
I don’t believe I see anyone bearing a resemblance to SM or Roy Webb, at any rate. And I’m pretty sure that the one and only campus of Swinburne at the time was located in leafy Hawthorn, an eastern suburb that is not close to the known Webb family haunts in the western suburbs of Melbourne.
(fwiw) I couldn’t not link this after noticing that another member of the team appears to have borne the unfortunate name of “C. Oriander” 😀 What were his parents thinking? I bet
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/3f4925a7-6336-4263-b5ad-f26622f75f48/1/pho020i0011.jpg
@Furphy: Great find! I would bet far left front row. The ears and the big hands!
From Springvale:
Mr. Charles Webb is away, camping
at Moubulk, and his bakery position
is being carried on by Mr. Jack
Norris.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201298961?searchTerm=%22charles%20webb%22%20moubulk
@furphy there’s a few in there that with a few years could resemble different SM pics we have – but it’s a bit speculative. Age would be about right – And I think Swinburne being a technical college the location is less of a problem than if it were a school…..
Wonder what sort of courses they offered 😉
Thomas: Pat already found that, as well as this – https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/08/07/carl-webb-electrical-fitter-and-instrument-maker#comment-467241
@milongal
The prospectus of 1924
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/8ff31b14-522a-4b8e-a37b-aa24d6a0012e/1/pub006i0074a.pdf
The Electrical Engineering lab…
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/7ef82d28-9d6b-4c52-a0f7-8f49026faf32/1/
Furphy, back row extreme right. Works if you start counting at the top LHS corner and go to the 8th person there.
Thomas, Pat, Nick: Jack Stowe Norris fruiterer born Mildura1893 died Bendigo 1981 was possibly filled in for Carl Webb at the bakery when that worthy went camping at Moubulk [sic] in 1933. My choice due to his have been a Free Mason like bakery boss Richard Webb….what does all this represent?, about twice as much as all the other diddly squat on this page, that’s what!
Thomas, Pat, Nick: Jack Stowe Norris fruiterer born Mildura1893 died Bendigo 1981 was possibly filled in for Carl Webb at the bakery when that worthy went camping at Moubulk [sic] in 1933. My choice due to his have been a Free Mason like bakery boss Richard Webb….what does all this represent?, about twice as much as all the other diddly squat on this page, that’s what!
Ruby: still trying to fit Carl @ Charles Webb up with Somerton Man (Ruby &c.) is somewhat speculative imo but does go with the flow so you’re in good company.
Swinburne College was established in 1908 as a technical college satifying the early needs of the time for qualified tradesmen ie., carpenters, plumbers and gas fitters etc. After WW2 to modernise it introduced mechanical & electrical engineering and in 1992 it achieved full university status. Can’t really see much for Carl unless he was interested in water & gas meters.
See https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/98461ad-1-9bfa-47a3-9b3e-0240d8c58db7/1/ Top-8th from LHS?
Milongal: “Swinburne being a technical college the location is less of a problem…Wonder what sort of courses they offered.”
* Good points and as Pat has shown, there was an electrical engineering course.
Pat: “I would bet far left front row. The ears and the big hands!”
* Agreed, that fellow is certainly the closest in appearance to “SM” and Roy Webb.
Whoever the Swinburne C. Webb was, he may have been studying the right subject, i.e. he appears in a list of Engineering scholarship winners for 1921. (Note that at least one of the other winners was also a member of the u/16 football team.)
“Engineering.—Day Course: H. R. Corr, L. A.
Clegg, A. E. Dubberlin, A. O. Griffiths,
A. G. Marshall, H. T. Popple. Evening
Course: W. H. Sydserff, W . G. Gosbell,
J. G. Endersbee, C. Webb. ”
(The Swinburnian, vol. 1, no. 1, December 1922, p. 8.)
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/fbceaa57-1596-4f82-af74-3518cdc46a4f/1/swinburnian_1922_v1_n1-p008i0001.pdf
The boy furthest right in the back row seems to have the right hairline as well (matches Roy’s and his own post-mortem forehead). Furthermore, since the names of these boys are not in alphabetical order, the only other order that would make sense to me is counting from the back row L to R, the way English is written.
Two likely lads that look ok at face value but wrong vintage and locality.
Carl August Thomas Webb, fitter and turner…born brisbane 1912.
Carl Webb…circa 1912, US rolls 1940 with brother Roy and son Le Roy.
Wondering if it’d be worthwhile resubmitting SM’s prints on the off chance his 1948 set failed due to lack of sufficient matching data. Now that a name is at hand, it could provide hope for cross referencing to be successful. Perhaps Carl Webb is also on record by name and DOB. Nah, if so surely this must have been taken up by the Sapol Cold Case squad since coming to their attention, right?
Rena,
“The boy furthest right in the back row…” was my first my thought too.
However, for a number of reasons I’m doubtful that they were sitting in the same order as the caption. (1) The neatly written sign in the pic would have been completed and “proofread” well in advance, and it had the names in the same order as the caption. It’s unlikely that it matched the order in which the boys were actually arranged, though, because the arranging was almost certainly done, on the day, by the photographer (e.g. the sports master and the tallest players were evidently placed in the middle). (2) In my experience, in photos from the era, captions/signs often did not match the image. This was apparently very common in unpublished/private images, and often subjects were listed according to other criteria (e.g., in cases such as sports teams, often according to their positions on the football field, i.e. typically forwards-midfielders-backline etc).
Fresh off the Abbott/Webb historical sour grapevine courtesy of Advertiser pay to play site. Sneak preview has pics of Carl’s sister..plus why he may have been wearing an American feather stitched jacket on such day Jose!
You know what Australia does best? Soap operas, and this is one of them … details to follow as soon as I can sort out fact from fiction. Stay tuned on tomsbytwo, your neighbourhood fantasy source.
John Sanders: no paywall access here, so if anyone else can tell me what Abbott is speculating today that would be great, ta.
Here is the link. Teaser promising photos of Carl’s family. ‘MEMBERS ONLY’ can view! Well, that’s crummy….
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=AAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.adelaidenow.com.au%2Fnews%2Fsouth-australia%2Fnew-details-emerge-about-the-somerton-man-carl-charles-webb-family-photos-new-details%2Fnews-story%2F4f4248cf91c01af760d88105ee8900ad&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-high-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append
Can’t say I disagree on that front Peteb. A good overhaul, steam clean and re-evaluation of priorities might be the best way to proceed henceforth, if we’re to gain some traction. I’m not so sure that tomsbytwo couldn’t do with some house cleaning of it’s own, but less of a task due to it’s smaller amount of traffic.
I was able to pull a large copy of the tiny photo of woman in the link from Google images. (Supposedly Webb’s sister????) Unfortunately no access to accompanying article. I would attach photo here if I could but not an option I guess. Gee, you would think the prof would share all of this with the world on his Facebook page instead of debuting it in an Aussie newspaper that you have to be a “member” (presumably they mean ‘subscriber’?) to see.
PS. I left a comment on Abbott’s Facebook page under Elizabeth Smith. I attached the photo I found. You can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/tamamshud/ (unless he takes it down). Supposedly this is a picture of one of Webb’s sisters, but I am not in Australia and not a ‘member’ of the newspaper, so can’t view the article to verify.
@Mary Spencer: it has been uploaded on MyHeritage (I have a free subscription)
The sunlight in Australia was/is probably massive (like here in Brazil), or the whole family seems to have a problem with bright lights (Roy’s enlistment photo: his eyes look closed). Astigmatism?
https://www.myheritage.com.br/photo-1000023_230018511_230018511/doris-maude-webb-aged-20-2?itemSource=individual&itemId=1000021&fbclid=IwAR0l4AFZagbtxcyY2QqvqTGbYWvhV10I4ry6cjJSKJYCZdDnmwvnjPfbFoU
She seems very happy, with her husband and sister-in-law… apparently Carl’s disappearance wasn’t a problem, I wonder why…
@Rena @Furphy ‘The boy furthest right in the back row`… tiny ears.
@Furphy: Great find (again!! I wonder how Swinburne has managed to upload such good resolution photos from the 1920s!
Pat: the brief reference you found to C. Webb “of the bakery” at Springvale injuring himself playing football (Dandenong Journal, 2 October 1930, p. 4). becomes even more interesting.
All: if Carl was still working as baker in 1930 … at what point did he graduate to instrument making/electrical engineering? Or do we now believe that he never had either of those occupations?
There should be a way to find out the first name, at least, of the C. Webb who won an Engineering scholarship at Swinburne in 1921; possibly even his exact date of birth and/or address.
I can’t see anything on the MyHeritage site as I do not have subscription. I wish I could see all the photos! The one of the supposed sister that I found that the professor has was nice. Not clear like pictures today, but she looks happy. I have no idea what date it was taken. Seems like 40s, but who knows exactly when. Because of the picture quality I personally can’t see any resemblance to anyone. It’s just a generic looking lady. I don’t know which of Carl’s sisters this is supposed to be. I wish someone researching this out there would put ALL PHOTOS AND DOCUMENTS on sites that are available for everyone to see.
On the photo from Swinburne I’m drawn to the guy in the middle row second from right – it’s the ears. Compare the cymba to the cavum. For non-anatomists like myself that’s the upper ear hollow and the lower ear hollow. If you blow the photo up he’s not a bad looking fellow, although I’m hardly the best judge. And look at those muscly arms and thighs!
Having had a little look into this case in the last couple of days here are some random thoughts and observations.
Derek Abbott has confirmed that his wife’s grandfather is Prosper Thomson. Therefore all misogynists might like to consider stopping making comments that Jessica Thomson was a “slut”, prostitute etc. I think some commenters are still living in 1948. Shock horror! Baby born out of wedlock! Woman doesn’t marry father of child until his divorce papers come through! I need a brandy to calm myself down
Prosper Thomson wasn’t Moriarty. He was a small-time car dealer/hire car operator who did a few dodgy deals. So what. He was swindled as many times as he swindled. And no evidence that Webb was a crook, however petty. I don’t believe that Oz in the late ’40s was the crime-ridden dystopia that some internet sleuths seem to think it was (having never even visited the country).
C Webb of Springvale was a bridge enthusiast. Not the Sydney Harbour variety but the card game. Type C Webb and Springvale into Trove to see what I mean.
Carl’s nephew John Russell Keane was killed in a flying accident in Northern Ireland in 1943. He had undergone training in Canada. Were those clothes his?- perhaps he went on a shopping trip to the good ol’ US.
We do not know:
a) That Webb travelled to SA the morning of 30 Nov. A reasonable conjecture but unproven. A railway station is a good place to leave a case or bag if you’re an itinerant. When I was in Oz I used bus stations for the same purpose.
b) Why Webb purchased a ticket to Henley Beach. Did he just want to do a Peter Bergmann – on a random beach – but got cold feet and decided not to jump in the briny of St Vincent Gulf after all and took poison instead, or was there someone or something out at Henley Beach he was aiming for and he just gave up after missing his train and decided on a jolly in Glenelg? And met with foul play. Also, it’s a strange coincidence that a body that mysteriously washed up at Somerton beach in 1941 was one Frederick Alexander WEBB (42), shopkeeper, of MOSELEY Street, Glenelg. But then Adelaide seems to be full of dead bodies and missing persons. Strange place, and not a patch on Perth (let alone Sydney) in my opinion. I stayed in the supposedly “racy” Hindley Street for a week or two in 1985 and nearly died of boredom.
c) That it was Webb who wrote the letters/phone numbers imprinted on the copy of the Rubaiyat or not. It might have been a second hand copy he found in a Glenelg bookshop. And if he did why all the focus on J Thomson when P Thomson is a much better bet and was known to be living at the same address in Moseley Street (or claimed to be).
d) What the letters represent. In the divorce papers apparently Doff said that Webb liked “death poetry”. In other words he was a proto-Goth. Presumably a fan of Poe (‘The Gold-Bug is all about a cryptogram*, and he (probably) wrote a couple of ciphers under the pseudonym W B Tyler), Baudelaire, Rimbaud etc.
* decoded as:
“A good glass in the bishop’s hostel in the devil’s seat
forty-one degrees and thirteen minutes northeast and by north
main branch seventh limb east side
shoot from the left eye of the death’s-head
a bee line from the tree through the shot fifty feet out.” This led to the treasure.
To finish, let me quote some lyrics from that psychedelic masterpiece Ogden’s Nut Gone Flake, in memory of the Webb family:
“There’s wheat in the field
And water in the stream
And salt in the mine
And an aching in me
I can longer stand and wonder
Cos I’m driven by this hunger
So I’ll jug some water, bake some flour
Store some salt and wait the hour
When thinking of love
Love is thinking for me
And the baker will come
And the baker I’ll be
I’m depending on my labour
The texture and the flavour”
‘Song of a Baker’ by the Small Faces.
O.K. I was able to get to the page on My Heritage. That is the same photo that I have—Doris. I have a much bigger copy that I did upload on Abbott’s Facebook. That is the only photo that came up on the Heritage site for me.
@Furphy: I guess he was in the evening classes, so he could work in the bakery, but maybe he only worked there after his father’s health began to deteriorate?
@Mary Spencer: You have to click on the user’s name who has uploaded the photo and the others photos will show up. Doris with her husband and Doris with her sister-in-law.
@Steve H: that boy has big limpid eyes, I think Carl’s eyes were smaller and grey. I know grey eyes can come in various shades (not 50). My mother’s eyes were grey and they were not limpid, sort of cloudy.
@Steve H: forgot to say… (poor Nick, sorry), I LOVE that song! Very appropriate!
@Steve H: (so sorry, Nick) SM’s hair was a ‘mousy ginger colour’. Your guy’s hair colour seems darker. My guy (far left front row), has the right hair colour in black & white.
@PB: Sorry I missed that. Hindley St isn’t on train lines. Runs parallel to North Tce (and one street over). I doubt there’d be buses up it either.
Far as I know, Henley line ran pretty much along currnet Grange line, and then turned left and followed Military Rd.
@Mary Spencer: try these links
https://www.myheritage.com.br/photo-1500044_230018511_230018511/doris-daniel-martin-2
https://www.myheritage.com.br/photo-1500046_230018511_230018511/doris-martin-norma-martin-1942-2
@PAT doubt Charlie in WA is the same – it’s possible, but that makes him a helluva traveller
@Steve H – mostly good points (and mostly mentioned here in the past)
Re the footy team – chances are the team is written up positionally (I assume it’s Aussie Rules) – but all bets are off on which order they listed the positions. Back then I think it was rarer to play multiple positions (and even today teams are often listed in starting positions). It’s mildly strange in that case that it’s 2 rows of names, and TBH could be anything (order of age, order of registration).
I find it interesting that there’s nothing to mark one of them as captain (and I can’t help but think C.Oriander is someone’s idea of a joke – although I do note there is a H.Oriander (Harry?) playing cricket for Canterbury in a similar era).
20 Players is barely enough for a footy team – surely even back then they played 18 + 3 reserves. A squad would need even more and this should be a squad photo (minor premiers is top of ladder before finals – so that should be players that played in any game that year at the least).
There’s some names in there that could relate to (fairly) recent AFL players (but they’re the more common names in that list so that could easily be coinky dink)
@milongal I take great pride at always turning up late for the party! With regards to C Oriander there seem to be quite a few refs to him in Trove for the Melbourne area. Tennis, football, cricket etc – quite a sporty herb apparently. Look out for C Araway, O Regano, T Arragon, M Arjoram and Basil and Rosemary Lovage – I don’t have thyme for any more.
@Pat You are probably right although I think my boy has “piggy” eyes and maybe on a second look a squint. Sorry if he’s not C Webb and is reading this. Maybe his hair turned ginger in the Adelaide sunshine. Great song isn’t it. I loved the Small Faces when I was a kid in the ’60s.
I’m still reeling from the fact that I am listed in Trove in the People and Organisations section as a “person”, as well as with 37 results in Images, Maps and Artefacts. All I did was take a few photos in a Sydney art gallery back in ’85. I haven’t been back to Oz since. Mercifully there is no photo of me, either dead or alive.
The class/team photos at Swinburne in the early 20s put me in mind of Derek’s ‘Jessica’s School Days snap a few years back. He had hoped to also identify the school which was unknown. I was able to tell that said pic was from the 70’s not 1930’s and that the senior class photo was taken at Mordialloc College where she was not a enrolled. Needless to say nominated student in that shot was not Jessica, though a lad in the group looked awfully like her son Robin.
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/3f4925a7-6336-4263-b5ad-f26622f75f48/1/pho020i0011.jpg
To those who said front row LHS, your observation is credible. He was my second choice, but now my first.
Steve H:
“Carl’s nephew John Russell Keane was killed in a flying accident in Northern Ireland in 1943. He had undergone training in Canada. Were those clothes his?- perhaps he went on a shopping trip to the good ol’ US.”
Good point; in fact, in the personnel file of 409839 F/O J. R. Keane RAAF, viewable at the NAA website, there is a series of letters from Mrs Freda Keane, protesting the paltry and (she says) incorrect personal effects returned by 5 OTU RAF. Anyway my point is, RAAF personnel (even when they didn’t train in North America (which many did), frequently transited the US on route to the UK. Sometimes they had a bit of time in places like San Francisco, Chicago and Boston (indeed enough time for the cricketer Keith Miller to meet and marry a socialite, before continuing to England to fly Mosquito bombers). Possibly J. R. Keane stocked up on civvies that were scarce/rationed in Australia and maybe even parceled them back to Melbourne. And then, in or around mid 1948, Freda, or her husband Jerry (or Tom) Keane, offloaded some onto Carl, who had probably lost a lot of his own stuff (e.g. Dorothy changed the locks and/or moved house suddenly without telling him).
@milongal: I know, that was a long shot, I just think ‘Charlie’ is such a nice nickname for our young Carl… I’ll keep looking in the Melbourne area, it’s much better than watching boring films.
@PB: Read your site now, and I think I know where you’re going with Hindley.
Note: I *think* most of the businesses that might be interesting would have been toward the Western end of Hindley (but that’s largely speculation).
Something like:
SM arrives at Railway Station, buys a ticket to Henley (ticket isn’t for specific train), checks his suitcase (if he needs it he’ll get it later when he goes to or returns from the train) and heads off to Hindley (literally a couple minutes walk) to sort out his business at Clinic Distributors. Not finding Prosper there (or for whatever reason being unable to complete his business there) he heads to the railway station, stopping to call Prosper – who says “Get on the St Leonard’s bus and head down Glenelg way”. Instead of having his day at the beach (or that beach) he hops on the St Leonards bus to meet up with Prosper.
Stuff happens. And then getting even more speculative – SM dies while in Prosper’s company (irrespective of whether suddenly or intentionally) and Prosper panics and needs to get rid of the body. He remembers SM mentioned he had planned to spend the rest of the day at the beach and thinks “he might have mentioned that to someone else – let’s take him to the beach”. Perhaps he takes the wallet (deliberately extract the Henley Ticket with the idea there might be a story “he wanted to go to the beach but didn’t particularly care which one”)…..
etc…..
Probably workable – no worse than any other idea floating around (although to me there’s still a few issues with it – not least around the TS slip, the Rubaiyat booklet, getting him to the beach etc…..all the issues every story has trouble explaining)
milongal,
I did notice, in passing, that a H. Oriander of Victoria also served in the Army in WW2.
“20 Players is barely enough for a footy team – surely even back then they played 18 + 3 reserves. A squad would need even more and this should be a squad photo…”
Not really. After all, the senior team at Swinburne, like other educational institutions at the time, would likely have followed the naming style of the era and emphasised the “First XVIII”. Different leagues had and still have different rules, but when I last played Aus rules, slightly more recently than the 1920s, a traveling team of 20 (two reserves) was the norm. (The explosion in numbers of reserves was relatively recent and the interchange bench did not come in until around 1990, if I recall correctly.)
(fwiw) There is also a pic of the Swinburne U/14 team from 1921, which also features 20 players. (No Webbs, Orianders or any other comic touches, unfortunately.)
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg
Does bowling build strong calves?
20 Sept 1941
Carpet
More than two hundred players of
the Ballarat Carpet Bowls’ Asso-
ciation took part in the annual pairs
championship won by the consistent
Mount Club representatives, H.
Davis and C. Webb, who defeated J.
Quick and E. Fox. of Hand of Friend-
ship Club by 11-2 in a skilful display.
Third place went to C. Gray and T.
Laverick (North Ballarat) and fourth
to K Davey and J. Delima (Golden
Mount)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224826686?searchTerm=%22c.%20webb%22
I have a copy of the Sands and McDougall directory for 1934. Springvale, which is in the Shire of Dandenong does not have roads listed as it was probably still quite rural in the 1930s (farms and market gardens). It is still in the City of Dandenong. There are three Webb families listed: Chas E Webb; George Webb, farmer and RA Webb, baker. I think Chas E Webb is getting tangled up in searches for Carl… It is very likely that Carl Webb studied at Swinburne at night – it was originally a “working men’s college” mainly providing technical training (it now provides Australia’s only Bachelor of Circus Arts!). It would be fairly easy to Swinburne’s original Hawthorn campus by train from Springvale. Soccer and/or cycling would align with all of the comments about well developed calf muscles, even pointed toed shoes (soccer boots? Adidas etc from Germany?). In terms of access to American clothing – the Americans were all over Carl Webb’s corner of South Yarra (Bromby Street) during WWII. I live around the corner from Bromby Street, there have been quite a few curious viewers over the past week or two! Carl Webb’s old apartment is a beautiful old art deco place with a balcony. It is two doors down from the original Kellow Falkiner car showroom (now the Royce Hotel). I’ve posted comments previously about codebreaking activity and the presence of Americal troops in the local area during WWII.
I have a copy of the Sands and McDougall directory for 1934. Springvale, which is in the Shire of Dandenong does not have roads listed as it was probably still quite rural in the 1930s (farms and market gardens). It is still in the City of Dandenong. There are three Webb families listed: Chas E Webb; George Webb, farmer and RA Webb, baker. I think Chas E Webb is getting tangled up in searches for Carl… It is very likely that Carl Webb studied at Swinburne at night – it was originally a “working men’s college” mainly providing technical training (it now provides Australia’s only Bachelor of Circus Arts!). It would be fairly easy to access Swinburne’s original Hawthorn campus by train from Springvale. Soccer and/or cycling would align with all of the comments about well developed calf muscles, even pointed toed shoes (soccer boots? Adidas etc from Germany?). In terms of access to American clothing – the Americans were all over Carl Webb’s corner of South Yarra (Bromby Street) during WWII. I live around the corner from Bromby Street, there have been quite a few curious viewers over the past week or two! Carl Webb’s old apartment is a beautiful old art deco place with a balcony. It is two doors down from the original Kellow Falkiner car showroom (now the Royce Hotel). I’ve posted comments previously about codebreaking activity and the presence of Americal troops in the local area during WWII.
‘He was sullen, rude, wrote his own poetry and may have had mental issues.’
There is no evidence as yet he qualified as an engineer. One person in his 1921 scholarship group passed an exam in 1922 (newspaper lists of exam passes). But not Carl. So when/where did Carl qualify as an electrical fitter?
It should also be considered that 95% of German heritage Australians had been deported by 1919 after internment. He was the last of a small group of German heritage children. Teachers would not have been kind to such children when their family members had been killed in Belgium in WW1. Before 1918 there were a lot of negative newspaper articles about German internees having it easy. Was his father Richard August an internee but for some reason was allowed to stay. Other naturalised Germans were deported.
Jo,
It is also curious that no-one wants to mention his 1941 274 Domain road residence which was a 13-bedroom mansion. That hasn’t been explained. He lived there alongside Bertram Whiting (adc to Mountbatten) and Mervyn Morgan (possibly a pilot) in 1941. It was speculated the dry-cleaning codes meant MM Morgan. It was also said in this group the tie he was wearing was RAAF dress code.
It is also curious that 274 Domain road was sold quickly at auction after his death and became a home for nurses for disabled children. Any former residents who could have recognised Carl were dispersed over Australia.
Pat,
“Does bowling build strong calves?”
Not carpet bowls, which is an indoor variant if lawn bowls – both have been extremely popular with senior citizens in Australia, for almost a century.
For that reason, the Ballarat “C. Webb” is probably a different person from our guy. (I seem to remember seeing the name in articles regarding a fishing/angling club at Ballarat, which is probably the same person, i.e. river fishing being a sedate pastime for people with time on their hands.)
David,
274 Domain Rd appears to have been an upmarket boarding house. (South Yarra still has a few of these, often now catering to backpackers.)
There is at least one ad, in The Argus 21 June 1939 (p. 21), for “nice double rooms” therein, “board and residence vacant” at £3/3s wk; pricey, but probably not extremely so for a skilled worker. I believe that rents were controlled by the govt for the duration of the war, so maybe it was relatively cheap in 1941.
Pat: forgive my indulgence, I always assumed that fishing being an innate passtime was for anglers with a line in there hands.
Pb: glad you raised the point apropos “….mental issues.” I’m looking into that possibility and it’s possible relevance to Carl’s having been placed in a lunatic asylum ie., ramifications it might cause to his family’s good name if disclosed.
Most residents at 274 Domain road around that time had a military background:
– Judge Drake Brockman
– Bertram Whiting
_ Mervyn Morgan (possible pilot)
Brockman went off to run a militia camp
Whiting adc to Mountbatten in Burma
Mervyn Morgan – not sure. He got married 1941.
Pb,
Isn’t your quote from the divorce papers filed by Carl’s wife Dorothy? I read somewhere a week or so ago more tidbits that were also from those documents. I have also seen articles online with what I think are ridiculous titles like ‘Somerton Man’s Toxic Marriage’, etc. It all got me thinking and I’m just throwing out some other POSSIBLES here. First of all, in a divorce, both sides have their own stories. Maybe all of what Mrs. Webb said is true, maybe not, but one thing that hit me right away was that he was much older than she was. He had told her before leaving that they were “not suited” to each other. I saw no claims of domestic violence, drinking, etc., just that she claimed he was moody, wouldn’t ‘talk’ to her, and was a poor loser at cards. She said he liked poetry and was distant. It’s just possible that being so much younger, she in her early 20’s was more of a gregarious, let’s go out, party, have fun person, and he was possibly more educated, intelligent, and cerebral. Maybe he felt she was frivolous, vacant, or that she couldn’t carry on an intellectual conversation, and that was why he lost interest. She on the other hand at her age could have seen his reserve, intellectualism, or distance as being a wet blanket, rude, a party-pooper, etc. Far from toxic, it COULD have been a marriage that fizzled out because of large differences in ages and personalities, and what they each wanted in life. Of course this is speculation just like everything else, but I honestly don’t think Carl was a crook, a spy, a wife-abuser, or any other number of lurid things. As for a poor loser, perhaps he was on a rare occasion, or maybe he consistently pouted when losing at cards or the like. IF that was true I should think everyone would soon back off from playing with bratty Carl, and that doesn’t seem to be the case. I would take things that were said in the divorce papers with a grain of salt, and I am simply positing other scenarios here.
This:
https://ibb.co/yVqdnpZ
@Furphy: Thanks for the explanation, things are quite different around here, fishing is a sport for the young as well. That said, maybe we shouldn’t just jump into conclusions and consider every possibility until proven wrong. That same bowling team is said to have previous footballers from Hawthorne (Wednesday, 6 March 1946, page 13 ‘Many Changes, sorry didn’t get the paper). Carl had been playing football for at least 10 years (probably more). He could be too old or injured to keep playing it by 1946, bowling and golfing being the obvious sports for older men, even fishing!
@John Sanders: I forgive you, but I’m afraid being an Asperger’s makes me unable to understand human jokes, nice try though.
Another reason Carl may have appeared to be sullen or rude or appear (at least to his wife) to ‘have mental problems’ could be depression due to having lost several significant family members in the years of his marriage and those leading up to his own death. I highly doubt Carl had serious mental problems or there would have been more detail in the divorce papers. I agree that he and his wife simply did not seem to be ‘suited’ to one another and just maybe his moodiness or distance, etc., were symptoms of his attempts to deal with the grief of his losses. Maybe he felt alone in this with little support. Again, just things to consider.
@Pb: I think it was also mentioned ‘manic-depressive’. I suppose this is the story of many marriages, especially when the wife is 15 years younger than the husband. I can understand Dorothy’s side of things, being left alone and having married friends with children, and so on. I can sympathize with Carl too, midlife crisis, losing his closest brother (in age) to the war, being the youngest in the family, everyone else married with children and so on. A fairly common story that ended up in a global mystery drama, but maybe there’s more to it than that.
Hi Pat, I agree with a lot of your ideas.
I was in the past married to someone who had hereditary bi-polar illness (aka manic depressive) and I highly doubt Carl suffered from that.
@Glen: Thanks for posting. Karen keeps adding bits and pieces and then deleting them. Hard to know why, does she want to help or not?
Hi Pat – I messaged Karen and she is under guidance from the relevant authorities. I didn’t think she realised the extreme interest in Carl Webb. I think she is just protecting her and her families welfare. Lots of nutters out there isn’t there.
Like if I were in her situation I would only deal with the police. I applaud Derek Abbott for his efforts over the years but he and his wife Rachel are not relatives of Carl Webb and Rachel’s grandparents could have played a roll in his death. It would be a tough predicament to be in. Also for some reason the Webbs / future generations just don’t care.
.
@Glen: I understand and if she thinks that it is better to deal with the police, that’s up to her. On the other hand, providing information for Abbot or newspapers under paywall, while we’re trying to find who he was and what were the circumstances of his death is kinda rude. Most people are genuinely trying to help solving a possible murder case, but I know that there are many weirdos out there. Maybe she should stay out of the internet until the official investigators decide what to disclose. Meanwhile, we can do without ‘hints’ or ‘half-truths’.
Glen, it might be the case of (i) family dispersal, and (ii) some kind of guilt (that surviving family can feel). Eldest brother’s wife died of dropsy (heart condition?) and his six kids were sent to an orphanage, as per Prof. Abbott’s latest radio interview. Rob, a POW, died. And we know that Carl had no children. His ex-wife’s family might feel a bit terrible about what happened to him and what was said about him (sullen and whatnot) after his separation from DJR. Freda, his sister, lost her son, T. Keane (were there any other kids?). Then there are the remaining two sisters. Don’t know what they felt or conveyed to their kids. Poor Carl had a difficult life – the Depression, the war years, the tragic losses, and his personal gremlins.
I agree people get divorced for a plethora of reasons – so it’s barely worth speculating none, any or all of the reasons mentioned might have had an impact.
That said, with Dorothy possibly being somewhat estranged from her family and some of Webb’s family dying out (and the remainder apparently not recognising him post-mortem (I notice Abbot claims this is because the photo wasn’t widely circulated outside SA – but trove would suggest otherwise)) it was just 2 of them against the world. For many couples, the less they talk to other people the more stir-crazy they become…..maybe that was another factor in them ultimately going their separate ways – but as I started with – literally loads of other reasons possible to influence (dinner wasn’t on the table when I got home from XYZ, or she always washed my socks inside out).
There seems to be an assumption (I suppose based on the divorce notice) that Dorothy initiated the separation – but if Carl went a wandering, isn’t it more likely he walked out on her?
Well said, Rena.
I don’t know who ‘Karen’ is being late to the party so to speak, but I am surmising she is a relative of Carl’s. I am hoping there might be much younger members of his family, far removed from the whole tragedy who never met Carl but heard enough or have access to photos/records, and have no problem sharing said info. That said, as much as I admire the professor for all that he has done regarding this mystery, IF he is lucky enough to be privy to much more family information and especially about Carl, including pictures, I wish he would share them with everyone. As I said before literally millions of sincere people around the world are so invested in this case and are sincerely interested in any news or resolution. The nutballs are in the minority. I wouldn’t be shocked if some day one of his latter day relatives does an exclusive with 60 Minutes Australia or other prestigious outlet for a documentary on this whole thing, complete with all kinds of photos and information. Just hope if it ever happens that it’s shown worldwide. I am in New Hampshire, USA and I like everyone else is interested in any morsel that comes along since this has fascinated me for years.
Hi all. Greetings, and sorry for this just one entry in your interesting conversation(s). Please read carefully the message Glen linked. Unless I am reading her incorrectly, Karen Dartnell is kindly revealing a very important new information. If she is correct, Carl Webb was married to another person (her grandmother) during 1930s, NOT to Dorothy Jean Robertson. She is saying her grandmother and Carl Webbs’ marriage broke down due to his relation with DJR. There seems to be no record of that earlier marriage, as you know; perhaps it had not yet been formalized, but that is not what Dartnell is saying.
Hopefully someone will determine Carl Webbs cause of death. Then people can find some sort of closure. Will this saga ever end or will it just go on and on?.
Something contradictory regarding what “Karen Darnell” says and another report! KD says that her grandmother (DJR) was married to CW in the 1930s (wrong decade) and moved to the UK and started a new family there (hence KD her grandchild). But didn’t she move to Bute. And other accounts have her moving later to NSW : “Descendants of her sister have told Professor Abbott she remarried and died in the late 1990s in New South Wales.” from Opie, Rebecca. “The Somerton Man Has Been Named. What Do We Know About Carl ‘Charles’ Webb?” ABC News, 1 Aug. 2022, https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101288890” (from Peter Davidson’s WikiTree page about her). Go figure! Perhaps some grandmothers have got mixed up?
@Mary Spencer: all I know about Karen is what she said herself: her grandmother had been married to Carl Webb BEFORE he got entangled with Dorothy Jean Robertson (in the 1930s) so she is not related to Carl.
@Rena: I think Karen is saying that her grandmother is another woman that was married to Carl, BEFORE Dorothy came into play.
@Pat and @Behrooz, what you say is fair enough. I’m wondering how there’s no record of a marriage. Given how reticent people were about calling even what we consider “common law” (and consider perfectly acceptable!) a marriage, I was a bit taken aback.
Furphy
Good info.
From https://wartimeni.com/person/john-russell-keane/
“Flying Officer John Russell Keane (409839) served in the Royal Australian Air Force during World War Two. He was attached to RAF No. 5 Operational Training Unit at the time of his death in November 1943. John was the son of Gerald Thomas Keane and Freda Grace Keane of East Brunswick, Victoria, Australia. He died on 29th November 1943 aged 26 years old.
Keane was the pilot on board Lockheed Hudson AM694. The crew took off from RAF Long Kesh, near Lisburn, Co. Down at 1520hrs on 29th November 1943. The non-operational flight was a bombing exercise over Lough Neagh. At 1609hrs, the Australian crew completed their task but proceded towards Templepatrick, carrying out a series of steep turns over Loughermore Estate near Dunadry, Co. Antrim. They were due to return to base and this section of the flight was unauthorised.
During one of these turns, the pilot throttled back both engines and the plane lost height rapidly. The engines stalled and the port wing struck the ground. The Hudson burst into flames and all those on board died in the impact.”
There’s a photo of him too.
And from The Argus 1 Dec 1943 (per Trove):
“Advice has been received that Fly-
ing Officer John Russell Keane, aged
26, son of Mr and Mrs G. Keane, of
194-Stewart st, East Brunswick, was
Killed in an opera-
tional flight in
County Antrim,
Northern Ireland,
on November 29.
He was born at
Camperdown, and
educated at St
Monica’s school,
Footscray. He
joined the RAAF
in October, 1941,
and gained his
wings and commis-
sion in Canada
under the Empire Air Scheme,
graduating at the top of his section.
Before enlisting he was employed by
Lane’s Motors*. He was well known
in ice hockey and skating circles.”
*Lane’s Motors Pty Ltd 89-109 Exhibition Street Melbourne. Used Car Division 101 Little Collins Street.
There’s another photo. His brother Sergt. L Keane was with the AIF “up north” according to the Camperdown Chronicle of 24 Dec 1943. His brother was Leo married to Rene. His sister was Gwen
From the Argus 29 Nov 1944:
” KEANE. –In proud and loving memory of
our dear son. F.-O. John Russell Keane,
who lost his life in aircraft accident, North-
ern Ireland, November 29, 1943, loved brother
of Leo (R.A.A.F.) and Gwen. –Loved by all
who knew him. (Inserted by mother and
father.)
KEANE. – Proud and loving memories of
John (F.-O.), who lost his life in Northern
Ireland, November 29, 1943, loved brother-
in-law of Rene, and brother of Leo.”
All very sad.
David
274 Domain Road, South Yarra was a private hospital ,”Osmington” during the 1920s and 30s (via NLA Trove and Sands and McDougall directory). It was purchased by a Tristan Beusst in 1933 (who planned to use it as a private home, via Trove) but was put up for sale again in 1936 (via Trove). My copy of the 1934 Sands and McDougall has it as still being a hospital at that time. Interestingly, if Carl Webb was still there in 1942 (when it was a boarding house) it places him in Proximity to Melbourne High School which was used by the Royal Australian Navy from 1942-1944. This may explain the number of military people staying at Osmington in the early 1940s. I find it interesting that his next address, at Bromby Street, is also close to Australian and American WWII military planning and operations, this time at Melbourne Grammar School and Fawkner Park South Yarra. I feel as though there is a Warlight (cf Michael Ondaatje) element to his story… or maybe that is the stuff of novels! It appears that Osmington was demolished in 1965.
Please help: Where does Karen D. say what? Esp. about her granny? Above is quoted something on Wikitree, but I wasn’t able to find that.
If Carl Webb had been married and divorced before his marriage to DJR, it wasn’t in Victoria. There is only one Carl Webb in the Vic. index which the one we already know about. There are 4 for Charles/Chas Webbs that fit the time frame.
1 – Hazel RICKARDS 7340 / 1922. I’ve had trouble finding what happened to her after her marriage but I’m working on a Tamanian angle and a different Mr Webb. (WW2 nominal roll & death notice for her father). Carl would have been 17/18 and she doesn’t appear with him at his address on any electoral roll in 1928 ’31 or ’36.
2. Betty Margaret RACHER 1342 / 1927. She and her husband Charles, a labourer, appear in many electoral rolls in Geelong. Her death: 7297 / 1971, Victoria. Both buried Geelong Western Public Cemetery.
3. Grace Marcella Maud CALDWELL 6425 / 1934, b NSW 2625/1907 (birth name Bertha), electoral roll Carlton 1940s with labourer husband Charles, Her death: 25902 / 1965, Victoria. Both buried Fawkner.
4. Irene Winifred WHYTE 7730 / 1935, b. Vic 7941 / 1918. Living in the CBD with husband Charles (another) labourer on the 1943 electoral roll. He either died or they were divorced before 1953 when she married Sydney George Whittaker 4826 / 1953. The are on the Victorian electoral rolls 1950s, ’60s’, 70s. She died 2001 (Herald Sun, 27 Dec 2001)
I can’t find any him in the PROV divorce index. Don’t ask me about any annulment rules, someone smarter than me will have to check.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?start_date=1930&end_date=1947&sort=sort_dt%20asc&rows=100&modifier=ALL_WORDS&form_origin=DIVORCEMELBNAMESEARCH&q=category:Item%20AND%20series_id:283%20AND%20text:(Webb)
David
https://www.ozatwar.com/ozatwar/comelbourne.htm
Here is a list of residences and buildings commandeered for military use during WWII. There are quite a few I didn’t know about, many around Carl Webb’s addresses at Domain Road and Bromby Street – including:
– 39 Acland Street, South Yarra
– 225 Domain Road, South Yarra
– Airlie – cnr Punt and Domain Road
– Grosvenor, (Cipher Productions Unit) Queens Road
– Goodrest, 104 Toorak Road South Yarra
– Kellow House, St Kilda Road (RAAF Signals Unit – next door but one to 63 Bromby Street)
– Leura
– Melbourne Boys High School (RAN)
– Meriden, 437 St Kilda Road
– Monterey Appartments, Queens Road (Analytical Section of FRUMEL)
– Macrobertson Girls’ High School (US Forces)
also not listed, Melbourne Grammar School (US Marines) (opposite 63 Bromby Street)
Another site has C Webb as being awarded an evening scholarship at Swinburne in 1921 to study engineering.
Catherine S: before you dive too deeply down the Carl-Webb-previously-married rabbit hole, electoral rolls say he was living at home with his father until 1939; and he’s marked as a ‘bachelor’ on his 1941 marriage certificate.
Thomas: this seems like a lot of noise at the minute, alas. 🙁
Thank you Jo. With Major Buesst (military intelligence) also living in Domain road it seems to be an area with a lot of military personnel. My thought was he was working as a building caretaker with so many Australian men away.
So far there is no evidence of him passing his engineering course – ‘in Australia’.
I wondered whether after the rejection of so many German families in 1918 (about 95% being kicked out of Australia) he may have wanted to seek out his own German identity in Hamburg. It can’t have been much fun in school and college being taunted about his German ancestry. Teachers could also be cruel. I did notice he was the only child in the Swinburne football team with dirty boots. All the others were highly polished. Was he being singled out for bad treatment and bullied by children and teachers?
Down the rabbit hole I went though. I thought I’d share my findings to save anyone else the bother of looking. I just don’t believe there was a marriage before DJR. I don’t know what Karen’s grandmother’s story is. Time will tell I guess.
Perhaps she was a non national and wasn’t eligible to vote. She could have been born overseas. I emailed the electoral commission in Australia and they have advised pretty much the same.
The marriage could have been annulled due to violence or another pressing reason. That would make Carl a bachelor as it wasn’t a divorce. They could have been married overseas. Maybe Carls German father wanted his son to marry a German. There are many different reasons.
I think I have a trip to the National Archives in London coming up. This is taking Sleuthing to a whole new level for me. 😆
If I might be so bold I’m now prepared, based on deduced credible information, supplimented by previously overlooked evidence, that Carl Webb is with little doubt, the body found on Somerton beach. Correctly identified on a false premise to wit, a rudimently contrived reverse engineered DNA back tracking process. Fact is, the identification was likely to have been obtained from information derived from a knowing source, thus rendering claims of familial gene matching a hoax. Guess I’ll leave it at that for now but, rest assured I’m in a position to follow up with convincing back up without fear or favour. PS Somerton Man succumbed to effects of assisted suicide and not natural causes as hopefully suggested by colluding Dr. John Barkly Bennett.
Reading a comment Nick made about perhaps somewhere there is a 100 year old person who may come forward saying he knew Somerton man…Yes, that sure would be great, if a long-shot.
—But it made me remember an article I read in an Australian paper online some months ago about a man in his 80’s claiming he saw the dead Somerton man on the beach when he was 11. His family knew, but he never told anyone else—not the police or reporters, or anyone. I thought it was just a very interesting article. Here it is if anyone want to read it.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/bombshell-claim-on-somerton-man-mystery-i-saw-his-dead-body/news-story/a78b959a0f922adc0d993d351a516c8d
If Carl Webb really did attend Swinburne Technical College and if he was an aficionado of “death poetry” then maybe he was a fan of England’s slightly anodyne answer to the great poetes maudites of 19th century France, such as Baudelaire, Verlaine, Rimbaud and Leautreamont – Algernon Charles Swinburne.
He, like so many bohemians on both sides of the English Channel at the time, was fascinated by death, sadomasochism and, er, lesbians.
Perhaps Carl might have identified with the sentiments of Swinburne’s poem ‘A Leave-Taking’, especially if he really was lovestruck:
“Let us go hence and rest; she will not love.
She shall not hear us if we sing hereof,
Nor see love’s ways, how sore they are and steep.
Come hence, let be, lie still; it is enough.
Love is a barren sea, bitter and deep;
And though she saw all heaven in flower above,
She would not love.
Let us give up, go down; she will not care.
Though all the stars made gold of all the air,
And the sea moving saw before it move
One moon-flower making all the foam-flowers fair;
Though all those waves went over us, and drove
Deep down the stifling lips and drowning hair,
She would not care.”
Interestingly Swinburne (presumably no relation to Geordie George who was literally born in Paradise and who founded Swinburne Technical College) was an early champion of the Rubaiyat, As Senan Molony writes in a fascinating article about the Rubaiyat’s links with the Titanic –
see http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/rubaiyat.html – “[The] first edition of the Rubáiyát, unadorned by illustration, was published as a favour by Bernard Quaritch, of Castle Street, Leicester Square, London, in 1859. It had a cover price of one shilling. Only 200 were printed. And it did not sell. It was being remaindered for a penny a copy in the bargain rack of Quaritch when it came to the attention of the poets Swinburne and Rossetti. They so championed the ruby they had found among the dross that it entered into ever more successful printings and editions.”
Weirdly there does seem to be some bizarre link between the book and mysterious deaths. Molony writes “And not only was the Rubáiyát destroyed at sea in 1912 [in the Titanic disaster], but it is remarkable that so too was its very maker [the tooling of the cover of the Titanic Rubáiyát was carried out by the firm of Sangorski and Sutcliffe], Francis Sangorski. Sangorski went for a swim on July 1, 1912, at Selsey, Sussex. He soon got into difficulties and was quickly drowned. It had taken him two years to produce the Titanic Rubáiyát, but the ocean took him in minutes…Anyone seeking a drowning thread to…[the]…tale can find further evidence in the death of one Dr John Potter in 1923. Potter, aged 75, was a Persian scholar like FitzGerald. Like FitzGerald, he produced a translation of the Rubáiyát. On Monday evening, June 18, 1923, Potter was seen walking in the street in Castletown, Isle of Man, and thereafter vanished. “No trace was found until his body was washed up at Auchencairn, a little village in Kirkcudbright on the Solway Firth” one month later, the Times reported. A wallet on the body identified Potter, “but there was nothing to show how Dr Potter came to be in the water.”
Also of note is that on page 19 of the second edition of the Swinburne College magazine The Open Door from November 1928 , under the heading of WHAT THE OPEN DOOR SUGGESTS, the first example is a verse from the Rubaiyat:
“Myself, when young, did eagerly frequent,
Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
About it and about; but evermore
Came out by the same door as in I went.”
By the way, does anyone know why the magazine was covered in swastikas – even in 1933 after Hitler had become chancellor of Germany? I know there were fascist groups in Australia like the Old Guard and the New Guard, but really!
I also remember that Augustus Charles Swinburne, as an article in Time Out by John O’Connell puts it, “liked to be flogged; also to advertise his deviance – he spread a rumour that he had had sex with, then eaten, a monkey.” This put me in mind of a curious case from the 1940s which occurred just down the road from where I grew up. Indeed I passed the house where it happened this very morning on my way to post a couple of birthday cards. Although very few have heard of it (my aunt who is now 94 brought it to my attention) it had everything. A dead body, a femme fatale, a menage a trois, a mysterious pregnancy, cross-dressing, trips to the local woods for flogging and spanking sessions (whilst being tied to a tree), spying from a cupboard, an unfortunately timed cup of tea, a jilted lover and an acquittal by the jury despite the fact that the poor husband who died in the bath had had his head bashed in and his hands tied up with rope. True crime lovers who would like to know more can read up here:
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/sex-games-body-bath–244594 – although it doesn’t seem that any monkeys were involved!
@Thomas ‘Please help: Where does Karen D. say what? Esp. about her granny? Above is quoted something on Wikitree, but I wasn’t able to find that.’
That’s the problem, Thomas… She posts these provocative bits of information and then deletes them. As mentioned before, Carl was living with his parents and then moved to 274, Domain Rd. and Dorothy was living there as well, so how could he had been married to her grandmother? Maybe they had an affair.
In a previous post I quoted the lyrics from an old Small Faces number ‘Song of a Baker’. I had another song in my mind which I knew I had buried somewhere in my extensive collection of psychedelic albums and compilations, and I finally managed to locate it. In fact it has some connections with the Small Faces.
This is ‘Bakerman’ by an obscure combo called Moon’s Train, recorded in the late ’60s. The track wasn’t actually released until much later. The band featured a fifteen year old Peter Frampton (later to star in Humble Pie with the Small Faces’ Steve Marriott) and the song was written and produced by The Rolling Stones’ bassist Bill Wyman. It is very similar in theme to the Small Faces’ classic ‘Here Comes The Nice’ as both feature a drug dealer. It is available to listen to on YouTube.
“My man Bakerman’s a beautiful guy
Bakerman’s runnin’ from the FBI
Cos everywhere they’re goin’ around
They’re puttin’ everybody down
Bakerman’s a terrible drag
He keeps his money in a plastic bag.”
Whilst we’re on the subject of psychedelia I also dug out my CD copy of those classic Aussie acid rockers Tamam Shud’s conceptual, um, masterpiece Goolutionites and the Real People from 1970. The Goolutionites are the bad guys – a mixture of goo and pollution.
From ‘I Love You All’:
“I wonder why you’re ill
I probably do it’s all that goo
that you breathe ’round town.”
Genius!
Like me you probably though that, being Aussies, the band took their name from the Somerton Man case. Not according to founder member Lindsay Bjerre. From the liner notes of the CD (complete with bonus tracks – go and buy it!):
“When interviewed for Freedom Train magazine in 1994, Bjerre recalled how he found the band’s name. “I was sitting around in a room with all these guys who were like bohemians and we were looking for a new name. I picked up the Rubaiyat and started writing down all these names. It’s a book of very flowery language verse. I was writing down all these flower power things. I put the book down because nothing had grabbed me. Then this guy…who was this Dutch national from Borneo, a real weird sort of cat and he was sitting in the corner and he looked at me and said “Tamam Shud” and I went what! It sounded terrific. Then he showed it to me at the end of the book and when I saw it I thought “that is fantastic”. I just liked the look of it As it turned out the name suited the music and the music suited the name.”
Apparently the band had the “perennial problem” of being billed as Taman Shud “in particular in Melbourne” – they were based in Sydney but started as a surf band in Newcastle before changing their name to Tamam Shud in the late ’60s.
Hi Pat,
I don’t think KD posts provocative bits of information at all. It was one comment if not two and she said she would take them down. She is in touch with authority’s in Australia which is a really good thing. I’ve exchanged a few messages with her and she really didn’t know the extent of everything. She states that she isn’t even a blood relation of Carl Webb. I believe she said her Aunt was, but her Aunt passed away a few years ago. Can they really get strong enough DNA from her Aunts children?. I thought it got weaker as the generations went on. I think they are more concerned about funeral bill and things like that. 😬
@Glen: I’ll rest my case, I’m not interested in information without evidence or sources.
By the way, I don’t know if this is the right place to post this, but I suppose no one is reading the previous posts any more… the real name of the ‘minister’ who married Carl and Dorothy was John Bruce Montgomerie. I have no idea who was the person who published his name was John Burrell Montgomery…
And here is the evidence
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-525837737/view?sectionId=nla.obj-546723814&searchTerm=%22rev.+j.+bruce+montgomery%22&partId=nla.obj-526024968#page/n19/mode/1up/search/%22rev.+j.+bruce+montgomery%22
Wonderful pictures of Monbulk and even a murder case https://sites.google.com/site/rangesscraps/monbulk
Does anyone know exactly what copy of the Rubaiyat was found and turned into the police with the signature and torn page? Was it a 1941 copy? Was it hardcover or paperback? (They came out with a paperback at that time). Just curious…
Never mind…I found this re: the Somerton man’s issue of the Rubaiyat.
https://omarkhayyamrubaiyat.wordpress.com/2020/09/11/the-whitcombe-tombs-rubaiyats/
They published version 1 in 1941 and a version 2 in most likely 1945. Interesting info…
@ Steve H, thanks for the poetry (and your prose).
@ Pat, here is this KD: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dartnell-90 (a temporary account).
This “previous marriage” business doesn’t seem to be flying. Somehow KD is also fluttering around a page related to the Robertson family. This might be the stuff of a rabbit hole minus a rabbit at the end. Doubt that that poor youngest son, helping in the bakery, living with his parents, writing his verses, studying to be a tool-maker of some kind, etc., had some secret marriage in the 1930s. Best abandoned unless some ocular proof arrives.
Hi Pat – I think it’s best left for the professionals to sort out which are the Police. It’s clear that’s the route she is following. It’s actually none of my business (and you). Does anyone know what Carl’s exact name was?. Was it Charles or Carl? The chap seems to be fluctuating between the two.
I became interested in this case because the man deserves a name. I was adopted at birth and spent most of my life in a cult. To this day I don’t know who my biological parents are. I always try to see the best in everyone too. I would like to apologise for posting the link to the comment on Carl’s family tree. It was in poor taste and I really didn’t mean to offend anyone or cause them distress. 😞
Hi Rena – Why would it be a secret marriage?. I feel that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion. There is a case of Chinese whispers going on here. I remember years ago that people on this very forum were saying that Derek Abbott and Rachel Egan had married etc. At the time the whole thing was dismissed as a hoax or something that had been misinterpreted. Was it true or not? 😊
@Mary Spencer: I think it was an edition from the same year of this one, but different publisher Whitcomb and Tombs
https://www.abebooks.com/RUBAIYAT-OMAR-KHAYYAM-Johnck-Kibbee-Company/30871168602/bd
I’m going to research the information I have put together myself. Rena and others should disregard and research more pressing leads. I’ve already put together a family tree for the first marriage. I’ve been through the electoral rolls in the United Kingdom and I’ve logged where everyone is living. I’ve also checked their facebooks and one of the family members joined in 2008 and others shortly after. I may be on a false lead completely but I have the information is it’s ever brought up again. My goal is the find a photo of Carl so the man can have his name and rest in peace.
@Glen: The thing about researching is that when no evidence is provided, it becomes difficult to use that information. We can put together as many family trees as we want, but they need evidence. A photo would be great!
He signed ‘Carl’ on his marriage certificate, so I think that was his ‘official’ name, and Charles or Charlie were nicknames. But who knows how things used to be back then, with a world war going on? Maybe he had a middle name, like his older brother and sisters, it’s interesting that only he and Roy didn’t have middle names.
11 year old from interstate on holidays (during term time?) with their dog and running around on a beach at 6AM?
If his mum really did call the fuzz, you’d think they would have tried to get back in touch at some point….
Tradesman electrical fitter…
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/images/1940/V/general/306.pdf
Famous Australian photographer Frank Hurley was an apprentice electrical fitter and instrument maker at NSW Telegraphic department between 1900-1904
https://www.frankhurleyphotoawards.com/frank-hurley-timeline/
Could Carl have been employed in something related to radio operations/wireless unit for the RAAF without being enlisted?
Catherine S: the Irene Winnifred Webb marriage is one I think was mentioned before (by Nick?). I’d discounted it because this Charles’ mother is referenced as alive (with the initial H) 3 years after the death of Eliza Amelia. This Argus entry (28 Sep ’49 p10 Advertising) is weirdly coincidental, though:
TO CHARLES WEBB, Formerly of 11 Palmerston Place, North Carlton, in the State of Victoria, But Now of Parts Unknown. — Take notice that your wife, IRENE WINNIFRED WEBB, has instituted proceedings for divorce on the ground of desertion. … take notice that the sealed copy petition, … have been forwarded to your mother, Mrs. H. Webb, at 30 Baillie street, North Melbourne, …
274 Domain Road South Yarra, where Carl and Doff lived at the time of their marriage was owned by Major Tristan Buesst of the Australian Army Intelligence Service. He bought the house in 1933 but may have sold it in 1936 (it did not sell at the publicised auction). Buesst’s family had links to Germany – his brother studied music there and Tristan spent time in Berlin after WWI. I wonder whether Buesst and Webb both spoke German? Although most Australian WWII intelligence work focused on Japan and later Russia, a German speaking electrical fitter and instrument maker could be considered a handy chap! It’s all speculative of course! Jo Thompson said that Carl Webb was known to people of a different ilk to the South Australian Police….
Better you than me with this swarm, [cheap generic bald insult], happy days eh?
Pete: my choice for an appropriate collective of such grouping would be coven although ours does certainly seem to be swarming.
Pat
I believe there were abundant local opportunities for radio operations/wireless work in Carl Webb’s area during the 1940s and lots for opportunities for him to become aware of these or to be recruited (eg via 274 Domain Road & Bromby Street South Yarra, Fawkner Park, South Yarra). I don’t know about requirements to be enlisted and in many cases employment details would be suppressed – even after the war. eg
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/tony-wright-column-the-modest-spy-and-monterey-australias-bletchley-park-20170706-gx5mxu.html
The WWII RAAF Signals Unit Radio Receiving Station at Kellow House was next door but one to Carl Webb’s Bromby Street address (Kellow House is still standing and is now the Royce Hotel, Carl Webb’s apartment, opposite Melbourne Grammar School is also still there, “Osmington” at 274 Domain Road was demolished in the 1960s and is now a block of flats).
See: https://www.ozatwar.com/ozatwar/comelbourne.htm
https://www.ozatwar.com/locations/fawknerparkawas.htm
I don’t know how it would be possible to ascertain Carl Webb’s employment details after the bakery, to ascertain employment with protected war service work or even post war employment…!!
I am basing my speculations on knowledge of the local area, a fit with Carl Webb’s skill set, plus comments made by Kate Thompson (Jessica Thompson’s daughter) during a 2021 Sixty Minutes segment!
It was a very sad death during an interesting historic period (warlight). There is so much that we will probably never know!
Pat
I believe there were abundant local opportunities for radio operations/wireless work in Carl Webb’s area during the 1940s and lots for opportunities for him to become aware of these or to be recruited (eg via 274 Domain Road & Bromby Street South Yarra, Fawkner Park, South Yarra). I don’t know about requirements to be enlisted and in many cases employment details would be suppressed – even after the war. eg
https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/tony-wright-column-the-modest-spy-and-monterey-australias-bletchley-park-20170706-gx5mxu.html
The WWII RAAF Signals Unit Radio Receiving Station at Kellow House was next door but one to Carl Webb’s Bromby Street address (Kellow House is still standing and is now the Royce Hotel, Carl Webb’s apartment, opposite Melbourne Grammar School is also still there, “Osmington” at 274 Domain Road was demolished in the 1960s and is now a block of flats).
See: https://www.ozatwar.com/ozatwar/comelbourne.htm
https://www.ozatwar.com/locations/fawknerparkawas.htm
I don’t know how it would be possible to ascertain Carl Webb’s employment details after the bakery, to ascertain employment with protected war service work or even post war employment…!!
I am basing my speculations on knowledge of the local area, a fit with Carl Webb’s skill set, plus comments made by Kate Thompson (Jessica Thompson’s daughter) during a 2021 Sixty Minutes segment!
It was a very sad death during an interesting historic period (warlight). There is so much that we will probably never know!
Jo,
274 Domain Rd was a boarding house from 1939, when Tristan Buesst sold it. An ad appears in The Argus in (from memory) June 1939: double rooms @ A£3/3s wk, or about A$295 (per CPI) in present day terms. Pricey, but not outrageous for the area, or a skilled worker with no dependents.
That aside … Australian military intelligence in the interwar years may well have had a blind spot about Germany. After all, no one else in the Anglosphere took the Nazis and Empire of Japan seriously until it was too late. The tiny Aus Army intell staff seems to have instead spent a lot of time in collusion with various shady militias made up of right-wing loonies, who were to put the dastardly communists down, should they become revolting. When the military intelligence (always an oxymoron, as the saying goes) chaps weren’t obsessing over “Bolshevism”, they were often overseas, attending meaningless training courses in Blighty, or attached as observers (official, not covert) in various countries, including the Japanese, in China (where at least one was impressed by the ruthless efficiency of what he saw 😐)
Jo,
Carl moved from Domain road as American military intelligence moved into the Girls’ High school. He was literally encircled at 63 Bromby by different military intelligence groups. Even the garage where he likely bought his roadster was a military intelligence location. It seems absurd that they didn’t check him out just in case he was spying on them. Perhaps he was the local ‘gofer’ for them to buy things for them, like petrol. But they would have seen him and known who he was. They may have needed an engineer for telephones.
Buesst took a lot of trips to Russia and wrote articles which suggested he half-supported their 5 year plan. It would also be absurd if they didn’t employ the language skills of Tibor Kaldor the guy who committed suicide a few days after Carl and not that far from the Somerton beach. He could translate Hungarian and German to English but likely many other languages and highly technical texts.
I believe from looking at myheritage.com it ‘suggests’ but does not link – that Russell Richard Webb was interned during WW1. He would have been about 20 in 1914. An ideal age for enlisting. But again like Carl they both don’t have a military record, unlike Roy.
There is also a strange anomaly. Roy and Carl have short names without middle names. All other relatives have a first name and a middle name. Why is that?
I would have expected something like Fitzroy August and Carl Richard.
David Morgan: Dick Webb was never interned. He was 48 (not about 20) in 1914 and an Australian citizen when war was declared. By the way some of you good people are straying if you don’t mind me saying.
Jo and David:
Excellent information, thanks! It will be difficult to find any evidence of intelligence/espionage work or just ordinary work for the troops, given the secret or secondary nature of these ‘jobs’, unless someone comes forward with private papers, photos, or speak to the press like Joan Duff did.
This document is quite impressive though https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/MSS2343/document/7309313.PDF
‘John Butler:
Although as a public servant (I worked in the Taxation Office in Melbourne) I was in what was known as a reserved occupation and therefore need not enlist.’
Carl didn’t need to enlist as his ‘instrument maker’ occupation was considered a reserved occupation.
The timing of these operations fits with Carl’s ‘erratic behaviour’ as well, marriage issues, selling stuff, no mention in electoral rolls, etc.
(Sorry if this post is repeated, it seems the processing of comment data is having a blip)
The Age (Melbourne), Thursday, May 25, 1933
BETTING IN HOTEL YARD Man Charged at St; Arnaud. A SUCCESSFUL DEFENCE. ST. ARNAUD, Wednesday .-Before Mr. D. T. Wilkins, P;M., at St Arnaud police court, Russell Webb was charged with using the yard of the Town Hall Hotel for betting. Constable Ward said he saw defendant In the yard. He was approached by several men; and made entries in a small book. He saw a man hand defendant 2/, saying “2/ on Gratify”. Witness asked defendant if he was “running a book”. He said “I am taking bets for friends and sending the money to a bookmaker in Melbourne for them”. He also said he was taking no risks and not betting on commission.
And it goes on… He was given the benefit of the doubt. Case was dismissed.
The Camperdown Herald (VIC), Wednesday, 1 Nov 1926
Russell R .Webb, baker, Camperdown, said his father was suffering from an injury to the knee He had two brothers, both going to school. There were three sisters, one was married. Exemption till November 30.
John Sanders,
David is referring to Russel Richard, and I think Richard August Webb’s ‘1914’ naturalisation application was actually granted only around 1983, at least that’s what I understood from what’s is written in the document.
Hi, if I may,
Pat: I think that date for R. R. Webb is 1 Nov. 1916, not 1926. Freda had just gotten married in 1915. Besides, Nov. 1, 1926 is not Wed. It is so in 1916. The link clearly places the piece in 1916 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/153114608/17831490
Rena: since you addressed me, which I appreciate, I am also baffled regarding that note from KD about CW being pre-married. There must be something helpful in what she is trying to do, one way or another, so I will also wait for more inputs, if made available publicly.
All: Re. the Swinburne photo: I think it can be verifiably determined that the second person from the right in the middle row is C. Webb (whether also TSM is another question), as Steve H had also intuitively pointed out. If this is determined to be the case, then my congratulations go to your Cipher Mystery site (and especially ro Furphy) for having found the first photo of C. Webb (if that C. Webb is TSM, of course). If the match is verified, perhaps you can also claim having verified the C. Webb is TSM, visually speaking. Unfortunately, the teeth are not visible!
Here is how the list follows the positions.
It is to be read left to right, from top to bottom row, as it is expected.
In Swinburne site, two photos of A. Marshall are also provided here https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/9d54a27c-0ef4-4a9a-8dfc-d93de92054b2/1/?search=%2Fsearching.do&index=1&available=128 and here https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/7588defd-2347-47ce-a816-c429151062ab/1/pho020i0013.jpg .
There is also another photo for G. Wilson here https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/9d54a27c-0ef4-4a9a-8dfc-d93de92054b2/1/pho020i0014.jpg .
Although in the main photo, A. Marshall (bottom row, far left) is somber looking, the hair style and face/ears clearly and consistently match the two happier photos of A. Marshall in above links. Regarding G. Wilson also there is absolutely no question that the one sitting on the right of G. Marshall (left bottom row) is G. Wilson, matching the second photo from him linked above.
The way to read the list included in the picture itself (which is two-columned) is that of starting from left top, then to NEXT column on its right on top, then second row left and its right, etc. So, the list not to be read as columns, but as a zig zag across columns going down. If you read the list that way, A. Marshall and G. Wilson will be found exactly on the correct positions. It is natural to think that, given they had a name list with them in the photo, they sit following its order, which happens to be a zig-zag pattern on the two-columned name list, left right, top-bottom order.
So, this means that if you count 15 from the first person on top, left, C. Webb will be sitting where the second person sits from the right in middle row.
Actually the look resembles a young TSM, in my opinion, comparing it to his main death photo (not the fabricated ones necessarily). I am not sure about the ears, though, following TSM’s profile. Steve H sees a match. I am not sure it is as clear as expected, but can pass, given the photo is not clear as far as ear lobes go. He has light eyes, could be grey, not sure, but too light; so it must be a very light gray. If it is the case that this is the Swinburne C. Webb, perhaps matching C. Webb with TSM may become debatable; but it could go either way, as far as this photo is concerned.
I hope you don’t mind me joining your conversation when I can, and if there is an interest. I find all of you to be genuinely trying to solve this matter, thanks to your website organized by Nickpelling.
I am also researching TSM on my own. I started the search last year and how it began has its own story which I won’t take your time now to share. My first report deciphering the code was published last year, being freely readable online here https://www.okcir.com/product/tamam-shud-how-the-somerton-mans-last-dance-for-a-lasting-life-was-decoded-omar-khayyam-center-research-report/ (by which I still strongly stand, by the way, though its interpretation as a suicide poem can be refined in light of new information being discovered about TSM’s identity; actually the new findings are increasingly supporting my finding; after all, only someone interested in death poetry would be inclined to write also his suicide note poetically; but there are many many more things supporting my finding that I will share at some point, as I am still working on it).
I also posted ten days ago some doubts (pro or not, re. C. Webb finding) about recently announcement information about TSM. It will take long to share the details, so, if interested you can visit it and read it online https://www.okcir.com/doubting-the-new-somerton-man-findings-do-0-01-error-chances-actually-matter-in-science/
I appreciate Jacquie for having shared a passage of my report in your threads previously (I told myself when I saw it, “finally someone at least listened!”), but unfortunately there seems to be no interest on the topic on your site, for one or another reason, which I am actually curious to understand. I sincerely believe you will never be able to solve the TSM case and decipher its code without taking the findings I have offered seriously. If in your network there are some knowledgeable about Arabic/Persian, and Turkish, I am sure the code’s nature as an Arabic transliteration can be clearly explained and further verified. But even for those not knowing the language, the report is explanatory, if it is read carefully. In any case, in my report I have provided solid transliteration links in google translate and elsewhere to verify the findings as well. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have about the findings.
john sanders
You’re not the guy who keeps contacting me on Facebook about a certain gig we both attended in Canterbury, Kent, in 1979 when Joy Division supported The Cure in front of a tiny audience? Or is that a different John Sanders? He was a schoolkid and I was a student at the time.
I have tracked down the granddaughter of Gerald Thomas Keane and asked Prof Abbott on the aforementioned Facebook if he has contacted her. She seems to be still alive and has several relatives listed. Perhaps she, or her family, might have some photos/memories. She is the niece of John Russell Keane and the great-niece of Carl Webb after all, and if still alive would be two months short of her 80th birthday. And as John Russell got his wings in Canada I’m sure he would have hopped over the border to the US at some point. As he worked as a truck driver for Lane’s Motors Pty Ltd in Melbourne there could possibly be a connection there with Prosper Thomson, or maybe Carl Webb himself? And if Doff appeared on the electoral roll as living in Balaclava, Vic, in 1949, it’s not likely that Carl was trying to track her down in SA.
Pat: yes of course it was indeed Russell that David meant but, in that he was also Australian born, such status rendering him not an alien he had no reason to fear internment. Moving on to the Camperdown Herald article of 1926, I think I’m now correct in saying that Russell R. (Dick) Webb’s brothers, Roy and Carl being 22 and 20 respectively, were well beyond school age. What did exemption mean I wonder?
…One last querie Pat, off course you’ll concur in that your grant NA grant of 1983 would be a tad late for old Richard, he being dead and all. According to his NAA file docs, a Certificate of Citizenship No. 19470 and dated 4 September 1914 gave him full naturalisation rights, or is that not so?
Thank you Pat
There are several mentions of the need for Instrument Mechanics, Fitters and Electricians in the ASWG history – eg p160, 204, 205, 365. There are some mentions of FRUMEL and Central Bureau (both near Webb’s addresses) but mainly Mornington and other camps. The Commonwealth Rehabilitation Service, Commonwealth Reconstruction Training Scheme or Commonwealth Employment Service may have had records for Carl Webb if he needed to transfer from war related work to regular civilian employment. I know the CRTS university scholarship information is still available but doubt this is the case for other services… I think my idea of war related signals work will always remain speculative based On Webb having the right skills and being in the right place (Eg. South Yarra vs Springvale). I think a few people who read these threads have parked me in the coven corner!
Behrooz: thank you very much for your helpful comments on the Swinburne photo! We’re not quite at 100% yet (I haven’t yet had a reply from Swinburne), but we’re probably pretty close. 🙂
May I just make a suggestion. With no offence intended to her mother, is there any possibility that Robin may not have been the father of Miss Egan? Because that seems a little more likely as a statistical proposition than SM and Robin coincidentally sharing two unusual genetic traits. How would we know, since he has been cremated? Unless her DNA can be compared with Kate Thomson’s then we are shooting fish in a barrel or just spinning the wheel of fortune.
Steve H. Not guilty squire, for starters I don’t do Facebook and moreover in ’79 I was still locking bad people up in Sydney Australia. Though I’ve visited Kent briefly in recent times I didn’t catch Joy Division? and am not aware of any cure for it. Regarding Doff and Balaclava in ’49, are you sure about Victoria as distinct from S.A. it being no great distance from Bute as the crow flys and to where she moved to in ’47 ?
Nick Pelling: unless we’re to believe Swinbourne’s own home page that claims they didn’t commence courses in electrical engineering until after WW2. What then?
I had a quiet non denominational wager, against my better judgement that, some amongst us might have taken onboard my recent disclosure concerning our Dorothy’s rather amazing coincidental familial ties to inquest witness Dr. John Barkly Bennett. I lost the bet of course putting it down to a diminished interest in the particular thread line, in favour of her husband’s debatable occupational qualifications.
Clive: can you please check your link? It’s not working for me. 🙁
John Sanders
The exemption is for military service, from service in WWI. See:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/provenance-journal/provenance-2015/military-exemption-courts-1916
Hi John – It has been brought up that Rachel Egan might not be Robin Thomson’s daughter. It was said that Roma didn’t even tell Robin about the pregnancy and he only found out when Rachel was an adult. Rachel was known as “Jenny O’Neill” and was working as a teacher in Christchurch, NZ when Roma rang her at work. She didn’t even know she was adopted. Roma and Robin were briefly married but Roma went overseas to Switzerland to perform and conducted an affair which ended everything. Robin also has another daughter from his second marriage who is quite knowledgeable on the whole saga (and wants nothing to do with the Somerton Man Stuff). They was also mention of an affair between Roma and Prosper Thomson many years ago. I have plenty of more information on file that I’ve sourced over the years (mainly from blogs etc) which I’ve then confirmed via first or second hand sources. Derek Abbott also has a back story too and it’s a very interesting one.
Glen, I would love to discuss this with you.
Does Nick know about it?
What sort of person was Prosper? What a sickening pair of creeps.
Does anyone know what has happened to the Smithsonian blog comments??
Thanks Behrooz, yes, that was 1916, my mistake (typo).
John Sanders: I was referring to ‘Item Details for A1, 1914/13776
Title: Richard August Webb
Contents date range: 1914-1914
Series number: A1
Control symbol: 1914/13776
Citation: NAA: A1 1914/13776
Item ID: 29996
Location: Camberra
Access status: Open
*Date of decision: 04 May 1983*
Physical format: PAPERS FILES AND DOCUMENTS (allocated at series level}
Date registered: 12 Oct 1998
I don’t know what `Date of decision’ means…
I’m trying to get hold of the Smithsonian comments too. I’ve sent an email to Smithsonian requesting them. They can either say yes or no but it’s worth a shot. They don’t have any reason not to release them in my opinion.
There is also the issue of Public money and University money which has been used to fund Derek Abbotts investigation into Carl Webb (The Somerton Man). Given his association and eventual marriage to Rachel Egan formerly Jenny O’Neill a conflict of interest is there. An audit needs to be carried out.
Pat: Thanks for acknowledging the error. I think you are an excellent creative researcher, findings important things that at least open our horizons of considerations.
I think there is still some merit to your finding a C. Webb in Singapore with Singapore Casket Co., or a C. Webb trying to visit his brother’s (Roy) grave. Instrument maker can also include casket making industry, I guess. But it can also mean other instruments, and I think we should not rule it out in broadest terms, including intelligence work. Not sure if someone depressed like him could be employed by S. Casket co, at that stage, but his interest in matters of death and dying my be worth considering as a link to that trade. The woman, whose funeral that C. Webb was attending, had committed suicide following her pilot husband dying in war a few years earlier. Any ways, Thanks.
@Pat: I think “Date of Decision” is when the file was opened – these days it’s generally when someone requests access they go and process that file…but in theory if they have no backlog I’m guessing they just work through gradually assessing (and releasing) everything that is ok for public consumption (in theory).
From memory a while back there was a Keane record that had some sort of restriction on it that prevented it being released….
Highly doubt Roma had an affair with Prosper Thompson who would have been a LOT older and married to her ex-husband’s (Robin) mother. Sounds lite a silly rumor. Again, anything is possible, but it seems there are a lot of off the rails thinking and going down fruitless rabbit holes when it comes the the Somerton man…
@milongal: Thanks!
@Behrooz: Thanks, sometimes I get carried out though. Regarding the Singapore Casket Co, I have found the C. Webb. It’s not him but he had a peculiar name ‘Carlo’. I will retrieve the link as soon as I can. Pat
Pat: Thanks. Glad to to know and clarify that possibility, though.
john sanders
From WikiTree
In 1949 Dorothy Jean Webb, chiropodist, was enrolled at 69 Murphy Street, Elsternwick. There were no other people surnamed Webb enrolled at the same address.[5]
[5] Australia, Electoral Rolls, Victoria, 1949, Balaclava, sub-division of Elsternwick retrieved through ancestry.com (subscription $) Ancestry Record 1207 #32139389
Strictly speaking Elsternwick, but I thought Balaclava sounded funkier! Her sister Phyllis Crick died in 2012 in unknown parts but from the messages of condolence she was survived by children, grandchildren, nieces/nephews although her husband died the following year.
Since you don’t go near Facebook Prof Abbott dropped this article there in pdf form from yesterday’s (14 Aug) Adelaide Advertiser by one Dixie Sulda:
“Until last month, Antero Bonifacio had no idea he was the missing link in solving one of South Australia’s most enduring mysteries. The Gippsland man was flicking through his local Victorian newspaper when his curiosity was piqued by the breakthrough identification of the Somerton Man. Just three months earlier, the 47-year-old father had been contacted by Adelaide University Professor Derek Abbott, who was seeking his DNA to help identify someone.
“He contacted me back in April this year and said he was a professor from Adelaide University dealing with Dr Colleen Fitzpatrick from the states about a potential lost ancestor of mine,” Mr Bonifacio told The Advertiser. “They didn’t let on whether it was a male or a female, what the circumstances were, but they did let me know it was my great-grandmother who this person might be related to.” A few internet searches to validate who Prof Abbott was reassured Mr Bonifacio, who went on to order a DNA kit from ancestry.com.au. Mr Bonifacio used the kit to send off a saliva sample to help genealogists create a family tree. About six weeks later, his great-great-grandmother’s nephew was confirmed to be Carl Webb, making him the Somerton Man’s first cousin three times removed Mr Bonifacio was not aware of his connection to the mystery man at that point, though, or the high-profile case he had helped to solve. “Lo and behold, I think it was the next week I saw it in the paper, the Somerton Man. I thought ‘hang on a minute, that can’t be a coincidence’,” he said. “I read it and I saw the surname Webb and I thought ‘hang on a minute, that’s the same surname as what we’ve been looking for’. “I was reading all the different articles that came out that week and thought that must be the link … but I wasn’t sure if there was another Webb. “But he (Prof Abbott) called me later in that week and confirmed everything, it was great.” Mr Bonifacio had not heard of the Somerton Man case prior to his interactions with Prof Abbott, which for 74 years has been one of South Australia’s most enduring mysteries. On December 1, 1948, the unknown man’s body was found propped up on a seawall on Somerton Beach. His cause of death remains unknown. Until last month, police and amateur sleuths had only guessed as to who the man was, some saying he was a dancer or a Russian spy. Prof Abbott and Dr Fitzpatrick made the breakthrough DNA identification in July 22, using hairs from a cast made to preserve the dead man’s face shape.
Carl Webb was an electrical engineer and instrument maker from Melbourne.
Mr Bonifacio said he felt privileged to be part of solving the mystery. “My mum was big on family history, but she passed away last year. She would’ve been rapt if she was around to participate in this,” he said. “Getting to know a bit more about your family history and being able to be … a part of solving the mystery, I’m just grateful to be able to help out where I could.” Prof Abbott said Mr Bonifacio was key in the “triangulation” breakthrough that led relatives to be linked to Webb on both his mother’s and father’s side. “We initially built the family tree from a paternal line that connected to Carl Webb,” Prof Abbott said. “It was then Antero’s DNA that gave us the final evidence we needed to triangulate a maternal line back to Carl Webb. “So Antero was a critical piece of the puzzle we needed.” Another relative of the Somerton Man is Helen Dangerfield of Mackay Queensland whose grandmother was Doris Maud Webb, Carl Webb’s sister. Ms Dangerfield, 64, said her sister-in-law on her husband’s side made her aware of their connection to the mystery man, which joined some dots from her family history. “I haven’t always followed case, but I am very excited about the connection,” Ms Dangerfield said, “I have done a fair bit of family history and wondered why I could never find Carl’s death certificate.” She said her mother only briefly mentioned Webb. “About 10 years before she passed away, I did sit down with her to get as much family history as possible and while she did give his name, there was no mention of him disappearing,” she said. Prof Abbott said there were potentially dozens of missing relatives of Mr Webb still living who would mainly be based in Victoria and Queensland.
“Finding his name is just the beginning of the story, we need to now fill out the story, so finding out more about him and his wife as well would be the way to go, but the only way to do that is to engage the public,” he said. Prof Abbott urged anyone who thought they may be related to the Somerton man to email him at
[email protected]
There you go old man, I’ve saved you the cost of a newspaper! But the granddaughter up there in Mackay isn’t the one I tracked down, whose married name and dob I know but nothing else and who is the granddaughter of Freda Grace. Obviously I’m not going to provide details of a potentially living person on the internet, but this person is listed as a profile manager of several family members including Freda Grace Webb (her Granny), Richard August Webb & wife, and more on a certain genealogy site and was certainly alive in 2015. She has children & grandchildren but her husband, sister and son are dead. I had previously come across her first name in an In Memoriam piece for John Russell Keane who of course worked as a truck driver for Lane’s Motors, got his wings in Canada and had a map of Chicago in his belongings. The profile manager for Carl Webb is the delightfully named Anne (Champion de Crespigny) Young.
*carried away… (predictive text).
Here it is https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19800611-1.2.102.4
‘Charles Burton (Carlo) Webb – former managing director Singapore Casket Co (PTE) LTD. passed away gracefully 10.6.1980 in South Grafton, Australia.’
I’m thinking that there might be a photograph of Carl Webb from 1930 as the Springvale Football Club won the Berwick District Football Association Premiership in 1930. We know that Carl Webb was sidelined due to an injury that year – something that was noted by the local newspaper. He may have made it back for the final and may have been included in a premiership photograph regardless.
https://www.melbournefc.com.au/teams/casey-demons/history
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201081257?searchTerm=bakery%20springvale&fbclid=IwAR09I39lB_YpSIQbHI80reQHjUhqQZsIio6BSWbausMBNy0GXCn0hkq_gq4
I have messaged the Casey Demons. Are there people with local footy knowledge out there? There may be an old photograph in a local pub or club or even at Melbourne Football Club (The Demons – linked to the Casey Demons).
This is Melbourne. Footy and meat pies are the answer to many things! Carl Webb has strong links to both! Is there a Holden car in there somewhere?
I have a copy of the 1930 Springvale Football Club Premiership team courtesy of an old Springvale players facebook page (many thanks!). It is not very clear. There is no mention of Carl Webb, however there are a couple of unnamed people – one very tall and one who is seated and looks to be quite short. It looks as though names have been typed under the photograph at a later date. I’ll find a way to create an accessible link. Nothing conclusive here though imo.
Clie, yes I noted that the Webbs were generally short lived. Maybe SM had one of those heart conditions that can stop the heart at a comparatively early age.
Clive, yes the Webb’s do appear to be fairly short lived. I note that Dorothy claimed that Carl was a “cranky” husband and that he was in bed by 7 pm. In bed by 7 is a rare trait IMHO but it is a possible symptom of connective tissue disease and I have previously listed the features of SM that suggested connective tissue disease. It is now know that 70% of people with connective tissue disease (CTD) have personality disturbance (=cranky husband? A husband who would sometimes refuse to talk). I have previously posted about the connection that I found between the SM type ears (less than 1% prevalence) and and sprinting ability and I note that although CTD can cause various problems in professional athletes the associated flexibility in the joints it is generally accepted as being a positive feature. Of course hyperflexibility eventually brings with it joint injuries etc. I can quite believe that CTD would be a positive attribute for many Australian Rules footballers.
JS: Swinburne were certainly offering electrical training in 1921:
ELECTRICIANS desirous of qualifying for an Electric Wiring Licence should obtain their technical training at Swinburne Technical College, Glenferrle. Particulars on application. (The Herald, Fri 18 Feb 1921 Page 12 Advertising)
In the Swinburne football team photo (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-15/somerton-man-face-search-focuses-on-football-photo/101333228) the top right lad looks to have similar ears – one of the bits of our anatomy very useul for identification. And if the names on the board are L to R, that fits, too.
Jamie: I suspect obtaining an electrical wiring licence circa 1921 may have been fairly rudimentary and would not equate to the advanced electrical engineering courses introduced post war.
Byron: as I put to Clive the three senior Webb family members lived beyond seventy from memory, Roy doesn’t count, though he didn’t die in battle as a recent commenter asserts. As I explained to Peteb just now, Russell Richard 1899/1960 was 71 when he died in an industrial accident so seems to put your theory under some stress. While I have you BD, do you still support an old contention that SM had neuro syphilus or is CTD your main culprit these days. Also how much do you know about fibrilation (arrythmia) and his having more likely succumbed to say Asystolic heart failure than systemic poisoning. Good to have you back on the sounding board mate.
JS: I completely agree, but not sure how advance electrical engineering relates to C Webb. I thought he was down as an electrical fitter through the 1930’s. I’ve clearly turned over two pages at some point.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245124424?searchTerm=lanes%20motors%20instrument%20maker&fbclid=IwAR2kZz-kbDIFwx-54gQJbT2lVvvwV6R9pNd8MtCMURlAHQV9oI1VSHQ8Iqw
This link from Trove – via Derek Abbot’s site lends weight to instrument makers (including Carl?) being needed for wartime work. It asks for people with experience in electrical instruments or radio work to report to the National Service Office with details of their experience.
To my thinking ears are a bit iffy looking at a grainy photo straight on. What I’d suggest is to put the team together to get mean height comparisons but not including stretch or the dwarf. Knowing y’man from his given height of 5’11” whereas average height for men (AIF inlistments pre 1917) was 5’7″, you should be able to pick a standout above average height as a likely candidate. I wonder with the war just over and families still waiting to find out how their sons, brothers and sweethearts died, would boys of German parentage be welcome at such an all Australian college?
…and by the way, I think it might prove prudent to give a little extra thought to Dorothy’s whereabouts and to her cousin Dr. Bennett who was convently on hand to give cause and time of death death opinion. In past posts I’ve expressed doubts about his bonifides and admitted prolonged abscence (see testimony) from his RAH internship, having only gratuated med school in September 1947.
I’m battling to find a definate reference however J.C. Williamson sponsered ‘Ballets Russes’ through their Tivoli Theatre organ. On 31st November 1948 Joanna Priest staged ‘The Listeners’ ballet’ world premier at Tivoli Theatre Adelaide, very night Carl Webb died. Gerald Thomas Keane had worked for J. C. Williamson in an organisational or like capacity for many years, attending opening nights on behalf of the company would warrant attendence at such a gala event. Stands to reason he could therefore have been on hand for ‘The Listeners’ ballet and so likely to be witness to his brother-in-law Carl’s stage managed date with destiny. Does such a co-incidence resonate with Keane punters pray tell?…..
@Jo: Thanks, I think the timing fits perfectly, how could we verify this? Is there some sort of National Service Office archives?
Somerton man’s fingerprints were taken when he was found. IF he worked for war effort in some capacity during WWII, I wonder why his prints were not on file somewhere…Maybe they don’t do that in Australia, or maybe he just didn’t work in a government/war related capacity, although that seems hard to believe. Just something I thought of having seen the paper with his prints on it.
It really drives me wild that the police themselves didn’t bother to test certain things, and deliberately got rid of some evidence over the years such as the suitcase and contents. So many items were lost or willfully disposed of! It’s just nuts if you ask me. I know it happens now sometimes too, but there are also cold cases many decades old where the evidence has been carefully preserved and they’ve been solved because of it! Just boggles the mind that some authorities toss things out when a case is still unsolved. Also their failure to lean on witnesses such as Jo a bit more instead of just backing off when she said she didn’t know who SM was, but they felt she was lying. So many missed opportunities to do a better investigative job on this, even in 1948.
Is anybody else talking about ‘Airedale’?
According to ‘The Official History of the Operations and Administration of Special Operations – Australia (SOA)’:
“While the stores section of ISD was busy with special equipment and food packs, Captain Jansen of the NEI section was designing and building suitable portable radio sets. The first two sets supplied to the New Guinea and Islands Section were constructed for ISD by a US workshop from prototypes designed and built in the workshop at 260 Domain Road, South Yarra [‘Airedale’] by Captain Jansen.”
I’m sure I don’t need to remind anyone that the ISD was the Inter-Allied Services Department and that NEI stands for Netherlands East Indies. For those who have forgotten, the ISD was formed on 17 April 1942 by SOE British Army Officer Lt, Col. G Egerton Mott. Later on 6 July 1942 the AIB (Allied Intelligence Bureau) was formed to coordinate operations of the ISD and similar organisations. ISD then became known as Section A within AIB, but disbanded in February 1943. A new organisation SOA (Special Operations Australia) was formed in April 1943, but it was not under the control of the AIB. Then in May 1943 it was given a “cover” name, Service Reconnaissance Department (SRD). The famous Z Special Unit was at that point transferred from the AIB to the SRD and a Special M Unit was set up for the AIB. Rather than me going on forever I will link to a couple of short videos on YouTube which explain the heroic role of the Z Special Unit in WW2:
https://youtu.be/XBCdfKVJOKE
https://youtu.be/RKzo0_Y3-4o
260 Domain Road is just a pleasant stroll from 274 Domain Road, where Charlie and Doff enjoyed (or not) their early wedded life together.
“The proposed role of all the Special Operations organisations in Australia was to comprise the training and equipping personnel for left behind parties in occupied territories to harass enemy lines of communication, general sabotage, attacks on shipping and organising and directing local resistance. It was also considered advisable, in view of the experiences in Malaya, to establish secret communication channels in areas likely to be occupied, such as the northern areas of Australia, New Guinea and New Caledonia.”
The existence of the ISD was to be known only to the Prime Minister and the High Command. Lt. Col. Mott started the ISD in the premises at ‘Airedale’ 260 Domain Road and Captain Jansen was head of the NEI Section (Wireless Telegraphy and Communications NEI). Z Special Unit was set up in June 1942. “Its formation increased security and was of great assistance in stabilising ISD’s stores arrangement with the maximum of security.” When the SRD replaced the ISD it remained in Melbourne, where the technical and signal workshop, administration, stores, training and medical sections “were to be located”.
At 260 Domain Road a “nucleus” stores staff were based and an old stable and loft situated in the rear of the premises were converted into a storeroom. Special explosive stores were shipped to Somerton. When the workload of the SRD increased the number of staff rapidly increased although “volunteers were not plentiful”. Stores were to supplied from local manufacturers or if necessary from US sources. Staff came from all three forces but mainly from the Australian Military Forces (AMF), ie the Army At the end of 1944 there were 144 members of staff, 53 of them active..
Records were destroyed after the war. As one of the fellows says in the video, participants in Special Operations were not allowed to talk about their wartime role for 30 years or more. Many must have suffered from terrible PTSD if they were sent on missions overseas.
Anyone care to comment on chances that Dorothy, Gerald Keane and probably a none to well Carl Webb railed to Adelaide on a ruse, should anyone enquire, of attending opening of the J.C. Williams presentation of ‘the Listeners’ at Tivoli theatre. That on arrival and by prior arrangement they liased with Drs. N.R. & J.B. Bennett to discuss contingencies re a failing Carl who had no desire to delay his impending death and was in need of a fast track solution?
JS, Dr Clelland was the one that wanted to check some of SM’s brain tissue and, as I previously explained, the only possible testing that would be of any value in 1948 was a microscopic examination for neurosyphilis. Hence, the only explanation was that Clelland thought that SM had neurosyphilis. CTD can cause many symptoms in common with neurosyphilis but why Clelland thought SM had neurosyphilis is beyond me unless he had a possible candidate from medical records. But Paul later backtracked and said that Clelland just wanted SM’s skull rather than brain tissue.
Heart block (often with sudden death) does occur in some cases of CTD.
And, to add to the medical problems associated with CTD are impaired kidney function, impaired metabolism and excretion of drugs such as digoxin, and electrolyte imbalance. None of these would probably impair the football skills of a young man, but a single digoxin tablet could kill under certain circumstances.
So, I think there is as case of accidental digoxin poisoning caused by extreme sensitivity to digoxin caused by hereditary factors, and maybe exacerbated by lead poisoning. I noted that on of Carl’s relatives was head a munitions? Maybe Carl had a job in munitions. Lead is obviously a big ticket item in munitions, not just for bullets but also for detonators. And silver is sometimes also used. Remember the lead and silver in SM’s hair samples? I wonder if Forensics SA have tested SM’s hair for the chemical anomalies previously detected by DA’s team? Or tested any of the remaining soft tissue (and soil) for anomalous amounts of barium and others. Remember the contaminated barium meal poisonings associated with the Crippled Children’s home?
CTD are generally caused by genetic defects in the structural proteins that constitute 35% of our bodies. These proteins are collagen and elastin and the genes associated with these proteins are well known and it would be a straightforward matter to find the mutations (otherwise known as variants) of these genes in SM’s DNA. If mutations that could cause SM to be abnormally sensitive to the effects of digoxin were present then I think a good case could be made for accidental poisoning.
Steve H. My apologies for not getting back to say a big thanks for your Abbott FB presentation which as you say came free of charge and I’m indebted. No need to name names for the Keane relative who I managed to pick up on a Freda Keane search back in March. Many thanks and enjoy your well deserved break. js
John Sanders
Cheers! My head is in a bit of a spin so I thought I’d stop the research for a bit. I have been going down a rabbit hole about the top secret ISD/SRD HQ at ‘Airedale’ 260 Domain Road South Yarra (see my earlier post). If I was a conspiracy theorist I might speculate that Carl/Charles was picked up for Special Operations work due to his instrument making skills and puzzle solving abilities (I posted a while back that a C Webb of Springvale was a regular entrant and winner in a bridge puzzle solving competition), but then passed some secrets to the Nazis/Japanese/Soviets, and had to lie low after the war finally coming a cropper due to a poisoned Kensitas cigarette on the strand at Somerton. After the body was found by members of the public it was taken to the morgue and a photo was released of a different John Doe for the press and public (Gordon at tamamshud.blogspot.com seems to think that SM and Carl Webb are two different people – he has an additional photo of SM after death that looks NOTHING like the photos we all know – hmm), the family was contacted and told not to say a word and the whole thing was kept under wraps henceforth. It would explain some mysteries such as why no war record has been found for Carl and why nobody came forward – or was ever reported as coming forward – to successfully identify him. This is all stuff for a thriller – want to write it? – and in this scenario the highest authorities knew who he was all along and went to some lengths to maintain it as a mystery for public consumption. I made an anonymous comment about it on Gordon’s website just for fun.
I might make the odd comment or two in future if I see something interesting on the site here.
Regarding the photos:
I always thought the first photo was as he arrived at the mortuary. The eyes being open suggests he had not yet been autopsied and put back together, as surely they would have weighted the eyelids or put a stitch in?
I understood that the second photograph was post autopsy & embalming hence the vastly different appearance – obvious freezer burn etc.
…
Cramer seems to think the first photo is post autopsy but pre embalming – and the second is supposed to be 3 months later.
Anyone clear this up for me?
It’s really simple.
Don’t listen to anything Gordon Cramer says!.
Steve H,
Very impressive for a head in a spin! Those pics look photoshopped, but yes some of them could have been taken after considerable deterioration of the body, but I suppose the photos released to the press were the ‘fresh’ ones? (terrible choice of word, I know)
My theory is Carl arrived on the Dunera in 1940 with Tibor Kaldor and was released May 1941 before ‘getting married’ to Doff Robertson in October 1941. A cover story. As Abbott said – nobody can find her – not even Colleen his super DNA genealogist.
Possibly Carl or Tibor had arthritis and needed kombetin. If murder, Tibor killed Carl and if suicide he just injected himself with kombetin and threw away the needle in the sand. But then Tibor Kaldor had to repeat the suicide by the same method or was murdered by the same method.
You would just have to imagine why Jewish Tibor might kill German Carl.
Byron Deveson:
Given your expertise (and anyone else in this network with medical expertise background, please also comment), I was wondering if you can kindly comment on the possibility of the following for TSM.
The famous code’s second line, if read as including a P in the middle, than a D, would suggest the abbreviation MPAN. In my efforts in deciphering the code, I wondered about this being the abbreviation of a disease, since it follows TBI, which, like Tamám Shud, can be an unambigeous transliteration from Arabic (and Persian), for “medical.” There is another possibility of transliterating the code if the P is a D, which can also be very clearly a transliteration from Arabic, but for that I am not seeking your advice.
I am copying below what I conjectured about MPAN in my report readable at https://www.okcir.com/product/tamam-shud-how-the-somerton-mans-last-dance-for-a-lasting-life-was-decoded-omar-khayyam-center-research-report/. But I do not wish to take your time in reading that report, unless interested. I am just copying the relevant passages and wish to know if MPAN (in the second possibility mentioned above) can be a possibility given the autopsy (and death) records for TSM.
Even if you definitively rule out the MPAN possibility (in the second version below) for TSM, that can be tremendously helpful, since it will tell me that that the two P’s in the middle (uncrossed out) line of the code may have been actually Ds and were mis-traced by the police officer trying to read the code under ultraviolet light.
But, if you can confirm it as just a possibility, that will be helpful too.
So, here is what I stated there (I will include the links directly into the text below.
The abbreviation MPAN is presently associated with the rare neurological disease “Mitochondrial membrane protein-associated neurodegeneration (MPAN)” involving brain iron accumulation resulting in severe external and gait symptoms. But these symptoms were NOT found in TSM during autopsy; he was found to be actually quite fit physically and his brain was deemed normal, and given his poem, he must have also been sound in mind. More information about this disease can be found here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK185329/ and also elsewhere online. If TSM’s MPAN (as noted above) disease had reached such a point of severity that would have made suicide plausible, he would have had severe physical difficulties of even traveling to Adelaide by himself. So, it is very unlikely that what is known today as MPAN as noted above had anything to do with TSM’s prior illness. Besides, such an abbreviation for that illness seems to be more recent than TSM’s time. Medical experts of course are best qualified to comment on the above considerations based on TSM’s autopsy results.
What seems more probable is that the abbreviation refers to what used to be called Polyarteritis Nodosa as described here https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/polyarteritis-nodosa/. The following synopsis for the disease is offered online:
“In 1923, Friedrich Wohlwill described two patients with a “microscopic form of periarteritis nodosa”, which was distinct from classical polyarteritis nodosa. This disease, now known as microscopic polyangiitis (MPA), is a primary systemic vasculitis characterized by inflammation of the small-caliber blood vessels and the presence of circulating antineutrophil cytoplasmic antibodies (ANCA).” (Source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2917831/)
“Microscopic polyangiitis (MPA) is a condition that causes small blood vessels to be inflamed. It’s a rare type of vasculitis. The disease can damage the blood vessels and cause problems in organs around the body. MPA most often affects people in their 50s and 60s, but it can happen in people of any age.” (Source https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-conditions/m/microscopic-polyangiitis-mpa.html)
Regarding the Microscopic Polyangiitis the information below is also offered online:
“The first description of a patient with the illness now known as microscopic polyangiitis (MPA) appeared in the European literature in the 1920s. The concept of this disease as a condition that is separate from polyarteritis nodosa (PAN) and other forms of vasculitis did not begin to take root in medical thinking, however, until the late 1940s. Even today, some confusing terms for MPA (e.g., “microscopic poly arteritis nodosa ” rather than “microscopic poly angiitis ”) persist in the medical literature. Confusion regarding the proper nomenclature of this disease led to references to “microscopic polyarteritis nodosa” and “hypersensitivity vasculitis” for many years. In 1994, The Chapel Hill Consensus Conference recognized MPA as its own entity, distinguishing it in a classification scheme clearly from PAN, granulomatosis with polyangiitis (GPA, formerly Wegener’s), cutaneous leukocytoclastic angiitis (CLA), and other diseases with which MPA has been confused with through the years.” (Source https://www.hopkinsvasculitis.org/types-vasculitis/microscopic-polyangiitis/)
“MPA can affect individuals from all ethnic backgrounds and any age group. In the United States, the typical MPA patient is a middle-aged white male or female, but many exceptions to this exist. The disease may occur in people of all ages, both genders, and all ethnic backgrounds.” (Source https://www.hopkinsvasculitis.org/types-vasculitis/microscopic-polyangiitis/)
Therefore, it is possible that by the late 1940s the disease would have been referred to with an abbreviation such as MPAN, given the word “nodosa” at the end.
This (second) “MPAN” (or how it is today referred to more correctly as MPA) disease as described above involves small sized vessels becoming enflamed, a condition called vasculitis, resulting in severe damage to internal organs, which can vary from patient to patient. TSM’s own personal eating or drinking habits, such as drinking alcohol and smoking may have also contributed to worsening such a pre-existing condition. Because it is microscopic and defused through the body, the condition is not easily visible as a local vascular condition and would not be easily detectible in an autopsy perhaps, but its effects on internal organs will be readily apparent. Its symptoms and age occurrence seems to fit TSM’s profile, a rare disorder that can also result in or worsen liver disease and contribute to enlargement of the spleen (called today splenomegaly) in some patients. Given the vasculitis condition, it may even explain TSM’s dying from heart attack despite autopsy diagnosis of a healthy heart once also shocked by the intervention of poisoning. The shock may have ruptured or blocked the already enflamed veins leading to and from the heart.
The study here https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/01.CIR.3.4.481 reports splenomegaly (enlargement of the spleen) not common but still present in few cases of the groups studied who were afflicted with Polyarteritis Nodosa (search for “splenomegaly” in the document). This study https://pmj.bmj.com/content/postgradmedj/62/732/965.full.pdf can also be considered in this regard. For further considerations see also here https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12024-011-9290-1.
@Steve H: Unless things have changed at TSBS (I haven’t visited there for some time) comments there are heavily moderated – especially if you include stuff that questions (or disagrees with) the content there…..
Behrooz: a rather detailed synopsis though I’m sure Byron would agree that such symptoms may have been evident with Carl Webb’s demeanor and phys in the final phase of his debilitatibg affliction. I pointed this out less descriptively in my recent post on likely involvement of his wife Dorothy and her cousin the doctor in their deliberations on how to end Carl’s suffering so as not be linked back to them or deemed suspicious in any way.
John Sanders:
I appreciate your feedback and thoughts on the matter, and I see your point. Regarding the first MPAN possibility, I realize there would be observable symptoms, given it tends to start early in age, but regarding the second MPAN possibility, perhaps they would be less visible since it has to do with micro tissues. Also, I had thought that TSM taking action (i.e., suicide) did not have to be in response to an immediate health-crisis, but what would be in reaction to a difficult diagnosis of a terminal illness. There is an athlete/football player, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Webb, strangely of the same name, who was unfortunately diagnosed with early onset of Lou Gehrig’s disease. In his case, he has much support and hopefulness, and best of wishes to him. In case of “our” C.W., given the personal difficulties, losses, depression, it could have played a role in his decision to end his life.
I will have more to say on this in relation to the code, and some of what you have offered as interpretive possibilities (role of Dorothy or others) can actually be accommodated into new interpretations of the code as I have deciphered it in its basic structure as a transliteration from Arabic (but needs further interpretation in light of contextual factors and new findings). More on this I will share later.
I hope to hear from Byron Deveson as well, of course. Thanks again for your input.
I wish to alert you all to the explanatory significance of “foot” in Carl Webb and TSM life accounts.
Unfortunately, the abrupt introduction of new findings has led us to forget very important and still relevant facts found before about TSM, so we need to balance old and new in favor of a more integrative understanding of what took place.
As TSM had unusually big hands, he had unusual foot features, including wedged toes (not necessarily a strength) and pronounced high calf muscles. We know that from the past, but in terms of new findings, please note:
In Trove we find a story of his injury “again” while playing football. This means two things. One is that he was prone to foot injury for some reason, and, second, the injuries themselves may have left its impact on his feet/legs in a long-lasting way. Calf muscles could have been result of activities such as dancing, cycling, etc., yes, but may have also been a way his legs compensated for weakness in his feet/toes.
Even when dying on the beach, attention were drawn to his feet and legs, their positions, and their stiffness (which may have been also partly the result of prior health and mobility issues). A diagnosis of increasing problems with mobility and expected quality of life issues may have played a part in any decision he made to end his life.
It is very likely that his exemption from military service at the outbreak of WWII was due to his foot issues. This also implied social consequences for him, mentally as well, in finding his relatives and cohorts go to war, and die, and he could not be involved the same way.
Foot issues can also explain the nature and the timing of his meeting Dorothy before 1941, a much younger chiropodist. War started around then, and the coincidence of his marriage’s timing and military recruitment drive may be significant. I contend that in fact that is why and how they met. He had been suffering from foot issues in his life, perhaps increasingly so as he aged, involving severe pain and mobility problems. However, their marriage soon fell apart, since it became evident that her speciality did not fully justify the marriage, since they were different, including in age. His family pressures on him to get married following his father’s death in 1939, could have played a part in a rushed marriage. But not marrying earlier may have had also something to do with physical mobility problems he faced.
I think it is plausible to consider that his going to bed early at 7 pm had to do, partly at least, with difficulties with standing for long time and enduring feet muscle pains. Being in bed and resting allowed for the alleviation of the muscle pains. In the meantime, she may have been instrumental in finding him medicine, on or off the counter, for pain relief. Among such medications, may have been, say, Curare. In Trove and TSM records, you may have seen speculations about the South American drug (used in hunting traditionally as a poison applied to arrow heads). In low doses, it can be a muscle relaxant, but in high enough doses, it can kill in a short few hours, making muscles stiff and immobile; from what I have read, it does not necessarily result in foaming symptoms, though it may have been expected for those not informed enough, in combination with other factors (others who know more can elaborate on this). A speculation about Curare in relation to TSM can be found here https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28668248?searchTerm=suicide%20khayyam , at the end of the passage.
In my deciphering the code in 2021, which, please note, was before all these new findings about Dorothy and her profession, I had noted the word Aiaqc or Aiaqci, which in transliteration can be, and has been, rendered also as Ayaqci, or Ayakci. This is a Turkish word used also in Persian and the region, literally meaning, “footworker,” or one who trades in/on foot. If Carl Webb was interested in poetry and attended poetry readings by people from different cultures, he could have learned these words from them, or even specifically ask for their equivalents, modeled after how he learned Tamám Shud as a transliteration from Persian (using Arabic letters). If any of you dismiss Arabic transliteration as a possible solution to the code, you are missing a big deal. Arabic transliteration, or rather Persian transliteration using Arabic letter, has been at the heart of this mystery from the beginning, by way of Tamám Shud. Tamám Shud in TSM’s fob pocket was meant as offering a key to deciphering the code on the back of his Rubaiyat. I am sorry that many, perhaps due to Eurocentric bias, are unwilling to take the Arabic transliteration solution to the code seriously. You will never understand the code without that key.
How could CW have learned about transliteration from Arabic? Just search Trove for Arabic transliteration and you will find tons of hits. The reason is that since the end of WWI, Turkish change of their Arabic alphabet to Latin alphabet was a hot topic of discussion. Also, Malay language (close to Australia’s home), was using Arabic (in Jawi) alphabet and was transitioning to Latin letters transliteration. English-Arabic dictionaries search in Trove also yields interesting hits, especially a few dealing with phonetic transliteration from Arabic words.
But CW could have learned the words he needed for his ultimate “death poem” by just asking for help in one of the poetry readings he could have attended. For example, a search in Trove https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword=%22poetry%20readings%22&date.from=1930-01-01&date.to=1950-01-01 for “poetry readings” brings up about 1343 results. An example in The Sydney Morning Herald on July 29, 1933 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16994294?searchTerm=persian%20poetry is “POETRY READINGS Mr Ian Vallentine will give recitals of poetry at the Chelsea Book Club, at 8 15 pm, on August 1, 17, and 31. Poets represented will include Richard Aldington Lionel Johnson, E E Cummings and Joseph Schwank, and readings will be given from ancient Hebrew, Persian, Sanskrit, and Arabian poetry.” I am not saying TSM/CW necessarily attended this particular reading. This is just to note such readings took place, people interested in poetry in different languages were present, also allowing for folks with similar interests to meet. CW could have actually met Jestyn in one of these meetings in Melbourne, in fact.
Aiaqci is a word similar to, say, chaichi, which means one who trades in or has a profession in trading tea. “Chi” in Turkish, also used in Persian, means someone trading in a field. Qahvachi, would be one who trades in coffee. If some’s profession/trade is related to feet, such as a chiropodist, one could definitely refer to him or her as Aiaqci. But the word can have many meanings, including the Saki or Saqi in poems, figuratively as the foot-server of Wine, which in a poetic context can also be healing medicine, or even poison. Again, note that I deciphered this meaning from the code before all the recent findings about TSM’s having been married to a chiropodist (as you can read it in the report https://www.okcir.com/product/tamam-shud-how-the-somerton-mans-last-dance-for-a-lasting-life-was-decoded-omar-khayyam-center-research-report/).
My deciphering of the code (for anyone who cares to read the report) at the time was based on contextual information then available to me/us. The code, as a poem, like any poem, can also have a variety of meaning. Even you can read a poem in your plain language and wonder about its many meanings. That is in the nature of poetry. Even the elements of the code, when transliterated, can yield different meanings depending on context. But, the words as transliterated in the code are definite, clear, and consistently constructed. It’s as if, say, CW, wrote his suicide “death poem” and asked advice form another person in a poetry reading knowledgeable about Arabic, about how he could transliterate it in the style of Tamám Shud.
Another part of the code, at its very end (following reference to “done poisoning”), implied asking a female to stay low, to evade, to keep distant, to hide. This can also now be found meaningful in terms of what Dorothy did supposedly by 1951 when she filed her divorce search notice in 1051 (actually, people are still looking for her life’s tale, about “what happened to her”). At the time, not knowing about Dorothy of course, I associated the reference to Jestyn. But, now, I think Carl Webb (if he is TSM) may have composed the code when still living with Dorothy as a way of imagining a poetic suicide, as one of those “death poetry” he read and wrote, having Dorothy in mind, not Jestyn, as an imagined role player, the Saqi of his poison. I am not ruling out at all Jestyn’s involvement in TSM’s life, however. But that is a different part of the story, explaining why he was in Adelaide, perhaps trying to see his presumed son once before he ended his life. There did not and could not have to be a DNA-confirmed reason for both TSM and Jestyn to wonder about the son being his, if she had affairs with others around the same time. More on these matters later.
I think rather than TSM going out looking for Dorothy, it was she who had gone to that area around and/or following his death, trying to stay in an isolated town for a while, as somehow imagined in the code’s suicide plot. I am not yet sure about this part of the tale ( just thinking aloud for now). Jo and Sanders have suggested interesting conjectures that can fit in this narrative, more or less. She may have known he was dead in 1948, kept a low profile, and submitted divorce notice and papers in 1951, just as a matter of formalities, knowing that he had died. His family may have also known this and just chose not to come forward, given he had died, and for Dorothy’s sake. Prior to that, she may have helped him alleviate his foot pains, and perhaps other diagnosis, maladies for a while, and made possible what poison/drug he took to end his life—poetically speaking, a foot specialist nurse serving him the ultimate healing solution, without necessarily any criminality being implied here. I am also inclined, like Jo, to allow for empathetic understanding of what happened with TSM and those he knew.
Whether his feet condition was also a result of an early life engagement with dancing, even as a recreative involvement, by way of Keene and his Ballet Russe involvement may not be still ruled out. I think Keane family had a lot to do with cultivating a creative, artistic, poetic, dancing soul in CW; but the tragedies came one after another, both public (he lived two world wars), and personal, and physical.
Overall, therefore, I wish to draw your attention to the important matter of “feet” in any explanatory account of CW/TSM’s life that will, I am sure, sooner or later emerge. This thread, organized by Nick Pelling is an inclusive, engaging, critically minded, network and includes thoughtful researchers who care about TSM as a person. I am sure it will also help author the end tale of the Somerton Man.
I will have more to say later about all the above and the code and its deciphering in the context of new findings.
In my reply to Prof Abbott after asking him about Dorothy Webb – see Ann Onymous’ comment of 18 Aug 9.55 am in the Dorothy Jean Robertson/Dorothy Jean Webb…? thread (she has made some scurrilous remarks about me but her account of my chat with the Prof is correct – we know her as the Chipping Sodbury vampire) – I said that “I found a few entries on Trove mentioning a C Webb of Springvale providing a correct answer to a newspaper bridge puzzle” Alert readers of Cipher Mysteries will remember that I first mentioned this in my post on this thread on 10 August at 5.55 pm. There are seven entries on Trove – for an example see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11049094 searchTerm=c%20webb%20springvale
Prof A then replied “Also those bridge puzzles are definitely him. Given his interest in puzzles in papers, his “code” letters could simply be his scratchings.”
Hang on! This is bad news indeed for all the cipher and cryptogram nuts, poetry lovers and horse racing enthusiasts out there if true. The point about his interest in the bridge puzzles is NOT just that he was a card enthusiast but that he enjoyed problem solving. I don’t see him as the infamous “Burt Baccarat” mentioned by a couple of gentlemen from Melbourne as a candidate for SM. Neither do I see him playing two-up in the back lanes of St Kilda. For a psychological profile of Webb we are told that he loved poetry and intellectually demanding puzzles. Maybe he also loved a bit of ballet. Of course a man can have many sides. A sleuther with more time than me might trawl through the November ’48 SA and Victoria newspapers for puzzles and crosswords to see if the letters can be matched to anything – you might even get your mugshot on the front page of the ‘Tiser if you solve the mystery.
Whilst we’re on the subject of the code I hadn’t realised that the copy of ROK found in the car was such a filthy little rag – a mere pamphlet that would fit in any chap’s trouser pocket. Something you would toss away without a thought unlike the impressive book that Jo gave to Alf Boxall. Why didn’t she save the SA cops a lot of time and trouble by telling them that the copy she gave to Alf was nothing like the grubby dog eared leaflet they were showing her as SM’s copy. They could have verified this easily with the Sydney cops. Heck, I believe that our own John Sanders was pounding his beat on the streets there at this very time. I know for a FACT that he was treading the boards of Sydney’s dance halls of the day to Count Basie’s version of ‘Open the Door, Richard!’ – own up John.
Behrooz: he didn’t die on the beach. He had lividity at the base of his skull – under the crown. This means he died flat on his back and was removed to the beach. Is this particularly difficult to comprehend? It does not indicate suicide.
The indentations in the book were just the results of a hastily scribbled aide memoir. He was murdered.
Steve H:
73 years of your kind of non-nut, non-poetry-loving, non-horse-racing-based, efforts passed, another 73, or more, to go. Good luck!
I guess you must have an excellent but still undisclosed theory about why there are no numbers in there, no J or K, nor Club or Diamond, etc., markings, thought there are lots of letters not found in card games.
And you think your what seems to be just an implausible hunch is more superior than others simply because of receiving an affirming “news” from a professor who claims to be dispassionate about his old theories but simply can’t let go of his loyalty to his old, horse-racing, implausible and yet-to-be-explained hunches in the past in favor of considering other possibilities, because they may show how he blundered in his classroom study, framed in a glaring and obvious eurocentric bias.
All your finding proves is that CW (if he is ‘our’ Carl Webb), was puzzle-solving (and likely puzzle-setting) oriented—and that is a good finding indeed—but you are not still willing to even consider that the code can be just an expanded Tamám-Shud-like transliteration effort, and even read (before dismissing) how others may have tried to explain such a solution.
I will be the first to cheer your decoding effort, if you can even offer a plausible explanation for it beyond just a so far implausible hunch a la your professor authority’s horse-racing guesses.
Minstrel Janet:
Please do not offer, and insist on, your opinions as facts, and then disparage others in a condescending way as not being able to comprehend them.
You are entitled to your opinion, and cheers for your comprehending them very well in your own estimation. But the result of his official autopsy was inconclusive, which means a variety of views may be held as to what happened: https://archives.sa.gov.au/finding-information/discover-our-collection/stories/“-what-poison”-mystery-somerton-man
The same applies to your opinion about your ‘theory’ (which seems to be just a hunch) about the ‘indentations.’
It must not be too difficult to comprehend the difference between one’s own opinion on matters (which begs for detailed explanation) and what may be indisputable facts, if there are any in this case.
Behrooz
I am completely mystified as to what you mean by my decoding efforts. I have absolutely no interest in ciphers and cryptograms. I do not believe that there is any possibility of working out what the letters mean if indeed they mean anything. It is not a subject that interests me. That Charles Webb might – and everybody else on this site is hypothesizing, so I might as well join in – have been involved in some secret capacity in WW2 does intrigue me. We would have to find evidence thereby, but that part of the equation doesn’t seem to bother you. You’ve been on the case for five minutes and you think you know better than Derek Abbott. So be it. I just reported what the man said to me I have only contacted him once in my life. He is not my professor. Another pathetic ad hominem argument. They seem very popular on this site. If you actually read other people’s comments instead of indulging in all this puerile jostling for top dog position in solving this case you might educate yourself. Good luck and goodbye.
Charlie’s Springvale years?
http://gallery.its.unimelb.edu.au/imu/imu.php?request=search
For me, the top contender for Charlie’s workplace in the Springvale years is Kelly and Lewis, which was on the corner of Parsons Avenue and Newcomen Road, in Springvale. The Springvale factory was established in the mid 1920s and was fully operational by 1927 (the business is quite a bit older). It is plausible that Charlie worked locally whilst still helping at the bakery, hence both “C Webb from the Bakery” and “electrical fitter and instrument maker” in the electoral rolls. I doubt he would have chance to travel far to and between workplaces.
https://www.pumpindustry.com.au/kelly-lewis-an-australian-pumping-legend/
There are records relating to Kelly and Lewis in the University of Melbourne Archives (see link at the top of this post). I’m wondering if there are any other Melbourne based people on here who would be able to team up in accessing these and having a ferret through, especially pay sheets, photographs and newspaper cuttings… ? I know some of the archivists and could help with access but am quite time poor at the moment.
In terms of photos, there are some quite famous photos of Kelly and Lewis, including Wolfgang Sievers’ “Shift Change at Kelly and Lewis Engineering Works, Springvale, Melbourne”. Alas the timing (1949) won’t work in our search for Charlie! And if the Swinburne Tech footy team photo is providing competing contenders for a face match, imagine how this one would make our heads explode!
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-160427131/view
@ Behrooz – foot problems leading to romance with a chiropodist is a nice joining of some dots! Charlie may have known Doff for a while but felt unable to marry whilst assisting his parents and their business.
@Steve H re the Rubaiyat’s been there done that (I think JS was one of the loudest voices exactly along the lines you do – that it seems a little odd that vastly different versions have been so confused).
@Behrooz: You’re very thorough, and I haven’t read let alone consumed much of what you wrote, but I wanted to mention a bit about the feet. I don’t know how much you know about Australian Football (youtube: ‘What is AFL’ – it’s evolved a bit since then (I think the official AFL video that comes up dates to about the 2013 season (which in turn is MUCH evolved from what it would have been like in the 1920s)) – there are more recent videos by a user called ninh ly (or similar) but they moght be more confusing), but you don’t typically injure feet, but rather knees, ankles, hamstrings, shoulders (and back then, probably the head). It’s also a sport where difficulty running could be a problem (although again, back then the game wasn’t as fast moving, and players typically held to their positions (these days a player might appear all over the field, even if their theoretically playing a role in a specific position). These days a mifdielder might run about 15km in a game, but back then even the running positions would have covered far less ground I suspect. That said, footy boots are often quite pointy and would be lacecd up tightly (we used to have long laces that you’d even wrap around the shoe itself before tying it off) – so I don’t know what damage a boot to small for you might do if worn over a prolonged period of time….
To clarify my earlier remarks of 19 August at 10.20 am which have been misunderstood and misrepresented.
I DO NOT CARE about the letters in the ROK. There is no chance of “solving” the case through their interpretation. My only interest lies in doing empirical research that may provide a few clues as to how and why SM (if indeed he is Webb as seems certain) died. I made a light hearted comment about looking through newspapers to find some puzzle or crossword that might explain the letters. If anyone is foolish enough to do that be my guest. Behrooz seems obsessed with card games and obviously isn’t aware that there were and are numerous types of puzzles and problems that appear in newspapers. As Derek Abbott pointed out in his reply to me “the “code” letters could simply be his scratchings”. In other words random.
@milongal Your constant references to ancient posts on this site are getting tiresome. You might have wasted the last decade of your life unsuccessfully trying to unravel this case but others have not. If the qualification for joining the debate here is that you have to read every single comment made from the beginning then I’m outta here!
I hadn’t been trolled on this site before but there’s always a first time. Step forward Behrooz who seems to appear on different sites using different pseudonyms. He enjoys patronising people as proved by his comment to Minstrel Janet “It must not be too difficult to comprehend the difference between one’s own opinion on matters (which begs for detailed explanation) and what may be indisputable facts, if there are any in this case.” Idiot! He also seems to have an agenda against Derek Abbott. Let me reiterate that I asked the man a couple of questions to which he replied and I have reported his comments here verbatim. About Prof Abbott’s “Eurocentric bias” I cannot comment, not knowing him, but don’t associate me with that accusation. I trained as a social anthropologist and worked with colleagues from every continent on the planet. Behrooz seems to have tied himself in knots and is obviously unaware that, as the late Edward Said pointed out in his classic 1978 tome Orientalism “the Oriental motif for… Fitzgerald’s Rubaiyat” was primarily a stylistic device”. In other words, it’s largely Fitzgerald’s work. There is no proven link to Omar Khayyam at all. In 1864 Fitzgerald’s friend, Edward B Cowell, “discovered a manuscript of Omar Khayyám’s quatrains in the Asiatic Society’s library and sent a copy to London for his friend and student, Edward Fitzgerald, who then produced the famous English translations.” (From Wikipedia). Also from Wikipedia “There are occasional quotes of verses attributed to Omar in texts attributed to authors of the 13th and 14th centuries, but these are of doubtful authenticity, so that skeptical scholars point out that the entire tradition may be pseudepigraphic.”
As Said says “The Orient was almost a European invention, and had been since antiquity a place of romance, exotic beings, haunting memories and landscapes, remarkable experiences.” He concludes that “Orientalism failed to identify with human experience, failed also to see it as human experience. The worldwide hegemony of Orientalism and all it stands for can now be challenged…” Behrooz seems to have fallen hook, line and sinker for all the Orientalist tropes that Said skewered in his book all those years ago. I recommend that he reads it despite its many flaws.
Steve H:
I am sorry for my lack of clarity about what I said about your “decoding efforts”. What I meant by your “decoding efforts” was simply your trying to explain how the the letters may be generally understood in terms of CW being interested and engaged in puzzle games, apparently of card games variety, as evident in the links you provided. Of course I had understood, as I noted then, that you were not interested in other interpretations in decoding the code as such.
I am sure each of us, one way or another, are intrigued by one or another aspect of this case. You stated yours, and I have tried stating mine; I have no problems with your line of inquiry, but you seem to have with mine. I am sure you are much more experienced and well-versed in this case than what you call “the five minutes” I have spent here (and on the report I shared last year). I am trying.
You wrote “You’ve been on the case for five minutes and you think you know better than Derek Abbott.” Actually, last year, before I had even thought of writing this report, and being even engaged in this case, I contacted Derek Abbott, thinking that perhaps due to my interest in Khayyam and his poetry, I could help him and his family solve this case, as their online interviews showed genuine interest in trying to solve the case for very personal reasons. I specifically noted I did no wish to make any contribution independently, but just offer him some ideas. He briefly replied by saying “You are welcome to send your interpretation.” So, I spent some good time and made an initial effort and shared it with him, but I did not hear from him at all, even to say I was wrong (who has not been wrong in this case at one point or another, including himself?). So, not having even heard from him, I realized on my own that the first try was not good enough. So, I reached out to him again after a few weeks, and he replied with the same apparently boiler plate sentence, welcoming my input, not mentioning anything about my initial effort. So, I made a second effort (this time in my own view more fruitful) and shared it with him. Again, I did not hear from him at all; nothing. So, I contacted again for the third time after a few weeks, asking for any reason for his lack of response. He never replied. He just did not seem to care to reply, though he welcomed to receive comments. Obviously, this experience differs from how he reached out to you immediately, twice, so I understand you may feel more welcome contacting him. In any case, following that experience, I worked on my explanation more (beyond what I had shared with him) and given that I had spent good time on it, just published it independently as a report in Oct. 2021, thinking that perhaps, still, it may help him and others.
You said “He is not my professor.” I am sorry if you interpreted my reference to him as professor as meaning that he was your professor. I just did not find a need to call him by name, but I see that it could be misunderstood. I did not mean to say he was your professor.
You said: “Another pathetic ad hominem argument. They seem very popular on this site. If you actually read other people’s comments instead of indulging in all this puerile jostling for top dog position in solving this case you might educate yourself. Good luck and goodbye.” I assume you are not including your own comments and replies in such a characterization, such as when you began your initial comment by saying, “Hang on! This is bad news indeed for all the cipher and cryptogram nuts, poetry lovers and horse racing enthusiasts out there if true. The point about his interest in the bridge puzzles is NOT just that he was a card enthusiast but that he enjoyed problem solving. ”
[More continued in another comment box]
Steve H
[continued from previous comment box]
Regarding your second reply:
You said: ” … I made a light hearted comment about looking through newspapers to find some puzzle or crossword that might explain the letters. If anyone is foolish enough to do that be my guest.” I thought that is what you were offering as an alternative explanation regarding the so-called code, and you were trying to convince us to choose that model of interpreting what the letters were about. You basically rejected all other explanations, and were offering yours, yet you say now it was just a light-hearted comment.
You added: “Behrooz seems obsessed with card games.” That is odd, since I have never engaged with that line of inquiry. I thought YOU were proposing that line of inquiry, even if it meant TSM making scratchings related to them. So, I was saying that the lack of numbers, or card game signage did not seem to fit in your explanation.
Then you stated: “I hadn’t been trolled on this site before but there’s always a first time. Step forward Behrooz who seems to appear on different sites using different pseudonyms.” This is odd and completely news to me! What different sites!? What different pseudonyms?! What are you referring to? I have never done such a thing! Can you provide an example of where you found such appearances where I used pseudonyms to engage in conversations? Actually I was quite hesitant in engaging in this CM site as my first try, and I am now already having second thoughts about continuing with it, to be frank (I am sure you will be happier if I disengage). So, if you care to share your facts about such pseudonymed trolling on my part, please let me/us know, since that will be great news to me. My reply to your comment was just an effort to engage in a conversation, with my post name clearly linked to my website. So, I have no idea why you are stating and accusing me of such a thing. The only reason I started to engage in CM (this site), was that I found it included people genuinely engaging in deeper research on TSM case, and Nick Pelling offered me a very refreshing, different space for actually conversing with folks who care to reply in a constructive way (in contrast to my last year’s experience with “the professor”).
You said: “He enjoys patronising people as proved by his comment to Minstrel Janet “It must not be too difficult to comprehend the difference between one’s own opinion on matters (which begs for detailed explanation) and what may be indisputable facts, if there are any in this case.” Did you read Minstrel Janet’s comment to which I was replying, where she INITIATED the patronizing (in my words, “condescending”) language of “comprehending”—where she said “This means he died flat on his back and was removed to the beach. Is this particularly difficult to comprehend?” I was offering her own language to make an ironic point. Are you saying that your own language in your two replies (especially the second one) is not patronizing?
You said, obviously referring to me: “Idiot! He also seems to have an agenda against Derek Abbott.” Beside what I recalled above, my substantive comments as part of the Somerton Man case has been detailed in both my 2021 report, and the recent post doubting some of the newly announced findings. In none of them I actually refer to him in person. However, all, including those on this site and elsewhere have a right to question various aspects of how the Somerton man case has been handled, and since Abbott has placed himself at the center of the case, obviously any comments or criticisms will touch upon his work as well. For a long time he said the hairs were insufficient, so pushed for exhumation of the man, and then he then announced he will keep quiet from “now on” until the official investigation concludes. Now, we have him offering solutions, preempting the official effort, with new conjectures while dismissing perfectly legitimate conjectures from the past, that now suggest the hairs were sufficient enough after all, leading his team not wait for the official assessments conclusion. I have expressed my doubts about this matter in detail in my recent post on my website, so obviously any commentary on TSM will one way or another touch upon his work.
You said: “About Prof Abbott’s “Eurocentric bias” I cannot comment, not knowing him, but don’t associate me with that accusation.” I was not accusing you of that bias, but since you do not care about deciphering the code, you would not care about whether any Eurocentric biases were involved in how he went about deciphering it in the past. And since he did not succeed in the effort and he is now falling back on more mundane explanations such as horse-racing notes, you seem to be agreeing with him about such explanations, and actually not caring about non-Eurocentric ways of going about decoding the letters.
Finally, you end your notes about the Rubaiyat, FitzGerald, Orientalism, Edward Said, etc., implying that I don’t know the basics you seem to have found on Wikipedia. If you cared to learn more about my engagements with these topics, you would find them on my website. In a conference I helped organize on Edward Said in 2005 in Boston (and whose proceedings I edited and published), I also presented a paper that is available for reading on my website, addressing the issues you raise, and in other books and articles still currently in progress in Khayyami studies, I have been even more engaging with the topics you have mentioned.
Studying the Somerton man case has little to do with whether or not there is a difference between the original Robaiyat (which I can read natively and have been studying in depth for decades), and the “free” translations by FitzGerald that have seriously distorted the originals. However, there is a basic thrust in Khayyam’s poems that has been captured also in FitzGerald’s translation in terms of dealing with life and death issues, and in that sense, the Somerton man’s case and understanding his life and motivations in relation to the Rubaiyat is relevant.
On a more positive note, your reply has encouraged me to reconsider whether my continuing to engage in this site’s conversations will be helpful. I have truly enjoyed learning from many on this site, and wish you all the best in bringing to a fair and well-rounded resolution this case. I salute Nick Pelling and am amazed at the extent of time and energy he has devoted to this site. I thank him and you all. Take care.
Behrooz
For goodness’ sake don’t let yourself be cancelled from using this site because I stand up for myself. I believe in a healthy, honest debate. I can argue with my own reflection in the mirror! I don’t appreciate being called a racist. It’s only the second time in my life that this has happened. I have not found the basics on Wikipedia, There goes your patronising attitude again. I first read Said over forty years ago. Stand up for what you believe in and engage with people on a less aggressive basis. I am glad that you have supported Edward Said, Lots of people have denigrated the man. This is a collaborative effort here. Best wishes, Steve.
Edward Said is part of the reason why we must endure this absurdist, culture destroying tornado that is ripping through Greco-Roman-Anglo civilisation. I have noticed that Behrouz has now accused two bloggers of racism and he seems to have a rather brittle CM persona. Some lady was also censoring Katie-Dee for using an anachronistic term. People, this is a forum of ideas and not a place to take umbrage. Anyone who doesn’t like it should head immediately to his/her/zee/zir local Snowflake Society and chow down on a Waaamburger with Cries. Or maybe call the Waaambulance. Or if in Blighty just call the piglets.
If I might be drawn back to the matter in question, however, the following is true:
* the deceased was poisoned and did not die at the beach,
* he was processed at the RAH or morgue by his own cousin-in-law,
* he was buried by a SAO with the same surname as his own,
* he was buried by the Bookmakers Association,
* there was a racing related murder at Government House some years prior to his death in which Prosper Thomson was rumoured to be involved,
* he was likely a homosexual or bisexual paedophile,
* he was known to Jestyn and her husband.
Why anyone would try to find a poetic angle in this morass of filth is beyond me. Seems to be the case that the tail is wagging the dog here.
L.
@ Behrooz – as a newbie to a long term commenter, please stay on! Otherwise the space could simply be colonised by the shrillest voices! Steve, hang in there! You Said men need to stick together!
Yes folks, come on, this is an open discussion and all opinions are valued, no matter who is the bearer of good or bad news, this is not a personal matter, no matter how obsessed we may get with it. Nothing matters, really. It’s just an investigative exercise and in doing so we can learn a lot about history, places and human behaviour, but please, not this kind of behaviour, it doesn’t help at all. Off to work, someone has to pay lots of bills!
@Laura McPherson
Whatever differences I have with Behrouz your remarks about Edward Said are absurd. You are a reactionary old fart. I have just posted a comment that makes all of this irrelevant anyway.
@Steve H it may be getting tiresome – but it’s also getting tiresome seeing topics brought up here that have (in some cases) been quite thoroughly discussed in the past. e.g. The differences in the Rubaiyats (I assume it’s my response about that that has made you sad on this occasion) have been extensively discussed here, on PB’s site and I think probably on Cramer’s (and possibly on Abbott’s, BigFooty and anywhere else there’s interest in the case). In fact I think it’s even come up in these most recent (ie since Webb) threads….
Feel free to skip over my tiresome posts – I try to do the same…..but not always successfully.
@laura , it seems to get more sordid the more we dig but how does one get to the conclusion that he was a bisexual pedo or what are those rumors re prosper and the racing related murder?
Could this have been a cover up?
All else having failed in to confirm any post 1923 qualifications for Charlie boy so, maybe he never did, maybe using his posh Swinburne tech college elementary pass papers to bluff his way into machine shops until the war caught up with him. We do have proof that he had worked in the family bakery during the thirties at least, so why not during the interim blank years as well, right up until dad sold out just before his passing in ’39. So what did he get up to from ’41 onwards when he married Dorothy until the end of hostilities apart from offloading his electric razer, snooker cue and carpentry tools. If still in reasonable health perhaps he felt the need to do his bit for the cause and after all he did have a skill to fall back on. Six Field Bakery (service corps) was a massive concern HQ’d at Camp Pell, Royal Park that included catering to the huge US reinforcement garrison, as well as numerous AIF units encamped throughout Melbourne and regional Victoria. Presumably it hired experienced civilian loafers by the hundreds to tend the ovens. It wouldn’t be drawing such a long bow imo to find Carl volunteering for such a cause, most probably working shifts so having time to pursue other interests. Problem is how do we find records of employment, bearing in mind that many old loafers may not have been inclined to give their birth names on inlistment. Back to square one?
Okay so a few years earlier we had a British Governor in SA whose lady wife was a horse owner. One evening a man was found dead in the grounds of Government House (that is the local residence of the Governor & of the Queen in right of South Australia). The Governor mysteriously took the following two days off work and resigned his commission some months later.
Prosper Thomson was a crooked man and a gambler with ties to the horse racing industry in SA and it is suggested that he and another bloke – possibly our Charlie – offed the dead guy. Later, Charlie got a dose of the conscience and came back to resurrect the matter when Prosper whacked him for his trouble.
I just listened to Colleen Fitzpatrick on Youtube (Gray Hughes’ channel—He is an insufferable jerk, but I was rewarded with quite a few bombshells about Carl). She went into great detail about Dorothy’s very specific claims on her divorce complaint. I had only heard the few things that seem to be floating about everywhere online but this was quite a shock and an eye-opener, and certainly paints Carl in a far more sinister and even more mentally unstable light. Evidently some of Dorothy’s claims on the petition for divorce papers were: C. was moody, went into ‘rages’ at times and insulted her, he ‘smashes dishes in the kitchen’. She goes on to write that sometimes he is very depressed and goes to bed at 7 PM, that he is a gambler and asks her to give him all her money. She says that C’s mother is very sick and she (Dorothy) takes care of her as well as works, and that Carl refuses to help out in any way. She says he is always writing poetry about death and that he tells her he wants to die. Dorothy also states that one day she came home and the house smelled of ether. She finds Carl in bed soaking wet and she gets him up and he tells her he took “50 phenobarbital” tablets. Carl then supposedly tells Dorothy that if she saves him and he gets better he “will kill” her. Dorothy says there is domestic abuse., and that the police had been called in the past. Supposedly SHE left HIM in April, and must have come back and that HE left HER the following Sept. (About a year before his fatal end on Somerton beach.
Dr. Fitzpatrick then drops another bomb. According to her, in the divorce request papers, when Dorothy is asked her name, address, etc., and her occupation, she SAYS SHE IS A PHARMACIST, (NOT A ‘FOOT SPECIALIST’). This was something I had never heard and supposedly it’s all there in black and white. It opens up more questions regarding the phenobarbital…
So, it paints Carl as quite the mentally unstable abuser, and makes suicide look more likely. Of course is it ALL true, or did Dorothy embellish/exaggerate? Dr. Fitzpatrick also equivocally states that according to “DNA” Jo’s son Robin WAS PROSPER’S CHILD. I didn’t know they had actually proven who Robin’s father was, so it looks like Jo got pregnant when seeing Prosper while he was married, and then after his divorce they wed. I couldn’t believe it, so I listened again, but yes, she said it was Prosper who fathered Jo’s baby. Colleen Fitzpatrick also stated that she and Prof. Abbot are trying very hard to find out all of Dorothy’s background and so far have had no luck. NO records of her in Bute, ever. They have no idea where she went or if she married or anything else about her, but that is what they are working on. She did say that they spoke to Dorothy’s living nephew—Phylis’s (sp??) son—(Dorothy’s younger sister’s son). He said she died in the “90’s” and he remembers his mother sending money for her to be buried, but that they never saw her. Evidently he never met his aunt. It will be most interesting if Prof. Abbot can dig up history on Dorothy after 1947. Here is the interview with Dr. Fitzpatrick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcsNwj_S1js
Furphy –
The more information that comes out, the more incredible your find was! Hats off to you! You don’t seem to have posted in a while…it would be great to hear from you!
Well, if Robin was Prosper’s son, that might explain why Robin ended up selling cars in Canberra? No doubt with a few tips from his dad.
I wonder if both Jessie & Prosper were already living in South Australia before 1947. (1946?) Very early 1947 we note Prosper is in Adelaide, per newspaper ads.
I’m just a mite curious as to why Queenie Thomson travelled to Adelaide in May 1946-did she have relatives in SA, or?
It was suggested Carl was using the pseudonym Baudelaire to enter newspaper competitions.
In the 1945 film The Picture of Dorian Gray the character Lord Wotton when he exits a coach he tosses the volume of poetry up to the coachman – the poem Flowers Of Evil by Baudelaire. It’s as if Carl was acting out this Dorian Gray drama in Glenelg tossing the Rubaiyat into the car.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142216739?searchTerm=%22lord%20wotton%22
One other name suggested was [Arthur] Rimbaud another French poet who lived in Charleville.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rimbaud
Where would this influence of French poetry have come from for Carl?
Assuming he was using these pseudonyms.
David Morgan: Try records for Poetry Society of Australia 1940-62, also the Edgar Allen Poe appreciation clubs througout Australia, Carl might have been impressed by the suicidal yankee nutter for his morbid Frog themes a’ la Murder in the Rue Morgue et cetera.
@John Sanders,
My thought was Dorothy may have introduced Carl to literature and death poetry when previously he was reading Scientific American.
We can see from her newspaper response during Christmas 1949 when she lived in Elsternwick a literary knowledge and a sense of humour (using a fake name) in the midst of her separation from Carl. She also seemed to have been preparing to move on from Melbourne because by 1951 she was in Bute, She precisely timed her visit to a solicitor for her divorce to be exactly 10 years after her marriage. That takes a very precise analytical mind or a 10-year diary.
It is very strange that she wrote to newspapers in 1949 for competitions but didn’t read them to see pictures of her husband Carl:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247726018?searchTerm=%22somerton%20man%22
Even in 1978 when the story was on TV she didn’t write in or phone in to point out it was her ex-husband.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22inside%20story%3A%20somerton%20beach%20mystery%22,%20stuart%20littlemore
I guess professor Abbott will say she just didn’t see the newspapers on those days and missed the TV programme living in isolation in her commune without a TV.
David Morgan
On this very thread on 10 August I wrote the following (as my alter-ego Steve H):
“In the divorce papers apparently Doff said that Webb liked “death poetry”. In other words he was a proto-Goth. Presumably a fan of Poe (‘The Gold-Bug is all about a cryptogram, and he (probably) wrote a couple of ciphers under the pseudonym W B Tyler), Baudelaire, Rimbaud etc.”
And on 12 August I wrote:
“If Carl Webb really did attend Swinburne Technical College and if he was an aficionado of “death poetry” then maybe he was a fan of England’s slightly anodyne answer to the great poetes maudites of 19th century France, such as Baudelaire, Verlaine, Rimbaud and Leautreamont – Algernon Charles Swinburne. He, like so many bohemians on both sides of the English Channel at the time, was fascinated by death, sadomasochism and, er, lesbians.”
These remarks were totally ignored (as usual) but now you tell us that Carl was using the names “Baudelaire” and “Rimbaud” as pseudonyms? I’d like to know your sources, but. If true, prescient on my part, even though I say so myself! Well, you have to blow your own trumpet as no-one else will (just ask JS).
Yes you John Sanders, you little Aussie bleeder!
The great Poe a “suicidal yankee nutter”! I’m shocked by your philistinism. The man was a genius. I like the sound of those clubs. Alright, I’m a big “goth” fan myself, at least in terms of literature, art and music, if not fashion (I don’t look good in Halloween make-up). If you think Poe is morbid try reading Thomas Ligotti.
Baudelaire is another favourite of mine – listen to this version of one of his poems from Flowers of Evil, translated and set to music by the great Ruth White back in 1969 – it’s relevant to Somerton Man when remember his specific enlarged internal organ:
https://youtu.be/b7vWLz9iGsk
And if you find a copy of the album let me know!
Hi All, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts on Carl Webb’s employer as an Electrical Fitter / Instrument Builder.
Just a little bit about myself to begin with, I trained as an Electrical Fitter 50 Years ago in a HM Naval Dockyard in the U.K.
The Apprenticeship was 4 Years, 2 Years in Training School and 2 Years in the Dockyard serving time in the various Electrical Sections namely Afloat Section, Electrical Workshops, Instruments and Radar Bay to name a few. During this time spending 1 Day and Evening at Technical College learning Electrical and Electronic theory.
This was a very large Dockyard and a Very secure one, Official Secrets Act and all that.
An electrical fitter is trained to a higher standard than other electrical trades such as general electricians, electrical mechanics or installers. Essentially, electrical fitters are trained and adept at pulling apart electrical fittings down to their bare components in order to rebuild it, and then re-fit them.
What I am suggesting is that maybe Carl Webb may have been employed at Williamstown Naval Dockyard in Melbourne.
The Trade as an Electrical Fitter is not peculiar to the Military but is a very predominant Trade especially in Naval Bases where Vessels ( under Refit or Repair) Electrical and Electronic Equipment is stripped out, Refurbished, Rebuilt and Recalibrated onsite in those days.
Just a Thought………
Also I think there was a Major Naval Dockyard in Port Adelaide, South Australia in those Days where he may have been Temporally Transferred too possibly……
Also If being in the Employ at a Naval Dockyard he would not be required to enlisted into the Military during WW2.
Interesting!
Dunera Boy, Ernst Winter…
“was permitted to leave Tatura on parole in August 1942 to take up a position as mechanical engineer with Red Point Tool Company in Melbourne, having been denied a position with the 8th Employment Company due to his physical disability. He left the following year to work as a senior draughtsman with John Buncle & Son prior to moving to the CSIR (Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, now the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation, CSIRO) at the University of Melbourne.”
https://www.duneraassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/No.102-Dunera-News-Feb-2018.pdf
Pity this doc is from 1956, lots of info on Red Point Tool Co Pty Ltd.
https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/publications/tabledpapers/HPP052016005556/upload_pdf/HPP052016005556.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf#search=%22publications/tabledpapers/HPP052016005556%22
I am unable to access Trove at the Mo (server downtime?) but DeWalt may be a name to explore as a possible working contact for Carl. If he had a US suit it could be he actually went to the US on a business trip. Potentially he could have been a design engineer at Red Point and not just a run-of-the-mill wiring technician.
The pencils tell me a story of a design draughtsman.
@ Pat – the name listed after Sher’s is my husband’s stepfather’s father (!). He was a WWI signals intelligence field operative, seconded to the British Indian Army, serving in Afghanistan & Iraq. His office was very close to the original ASIO headquarters. He was good friends with Will Sher! His wife (my father in law’s mother) served as the secretary to an American colonel in WWII.
I was looking at past papers to try to find characters in NZ e.g. https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers?items_per_page=10&page=8&query=%22charles+webb%22&snippet=true
I just thought one might turn up there e.g. Dorothy.
@ Jo,
What a coincidence! You must write that book, it’s bound to be a best-seller!