Cipher Mysteries readers may recall that I recently suggested that, to find out more on the suggested connection between Carl Webb and the “C Webb” at Swinburne Technical College in the early 1920s, it would be good to ask the archivists at Swinburne (now Winburne University). Well, I did: but sadly the only things they were aware of were the same football team photographs we had all been debating here. They too tried cross-referencing between different photographs, but (like us) only managed to work out a couple of names.
I also suggested that more information might be found in the Examination Results books for Swinburne Technical College, though these were held not by Swinburne but by the Public Records Office of Victoria. So you can probably imagine my delight when Melbourne-based CM commenter Jo took time out from the demands of doing a PhD to look at these very same results books!
Charles Webb’s Examination Results
What Jo found were not only the two “beautifully bound” Examination Results books for the 1909-1929 Engineering Department I had hoped for, but also the 1916-1922 Departmental and Annual Supps book, “a rather more used looking book, comprising type written pages glued onto the pages of more officious looking ledger”, and where results were often signed off “Yours obediently”.
Hence we can merge these two sources together to get a timeline for what Webb was studying there:
1920:
- Practical Plane Geometry [Pass]:
- Arithmetic (Practical Mathematics) (73)
- Algebra (Practical Mathematics) (90) joint 2nd with Lisle Clegg behind Douglas Dumsday:
- Geometry (60)
1921:
- Algebra Grade I [73]:
- Practical Solid Geometry – Fail! (Footballer A. Dubberlin failed the same class)
- Junior Technical Certificate – Pass with Credit [“C Webb”]
- Education Department Technical Schools Annual Examinations in Practical Mathematics [Pass]:
- Elementary Modelling. (No photo)
1922:
- Engineering Drawing Grade I [75] Credit:
- Electricity and Magnetism I [62]:
Absent from the archives
Even though historical archives are – almost necessarily – incomplete, there are some obvious gaps. For a start, the list of Scholarships awarded to Evening Students in 1921 by the College Council included only Leonard Bennett and Stanley Preece (i.e. no sign of Webb), which is perhaps a little odd.
But more importantly, there seems to be no sign of Webb there after 1922, even though (for example) fellow footballer Austin Marshall continued taking his Engineering and Building subjects through to 1924.
Why? In my opinion, the most likely explanation is that Carl Webb (born 1905) was only at Swinburne Technical College for two years. From the electoral rolls, his family had lived at Camperdown (120 miles west of Melbourne) until around 1918, before next appearing in Malvern (64 Glenferrie Rd) in 1922, and then Oakleigh (50 Kangaroo Rd) in 1924. Glenferrie Rd itself runs directly north straight to Swinburne Tech, and is five miles by bike or tram: whereas Oakleigh is just a little bit further (more like seven miles).
So my guess is that the Webb family moved from Malvern to Oakleigh during 1922, at which point Charles stopped going to Swinburne. Yet we know that, according to Russell Webb (reported in the Camperdown Herald) Carl Webb was still “going to school” in November 1926. (And, as noted below, Webb received a scholarship to study further, and was an “electrical fitter” later in the same decade.) So… which college could Carl Webb have moved to after Swinburne?
Jo points out that “Technical schools were still quite new, their establishment was provided for by the Education Act of 1910 (though some like Swinburne and the Melbourne Working Men’s College [later RMIT] were already up and running by then). The first Chief Inspector of Technical Schools was appointed in 1911.“
In practice, technical colleges in Victoria all seem to be clustered either close to Melbourne or miles & miles away (e.g. Geelong, Bendigo, Echuca, Daylesford, Sale, Wangaratta, Yallourn, Ballarat School of Mines, etc). However, I did manage to find one (non-Swinburne) Technical College in the south-eastern suburbs – Caulfield Technical School (which opened in 1922). (Note that Moorabbin Technical School seems to have opened only in 1939, which is too late for Webb: and there may possibly have been something in Frankston, but I’m not sure.)
Looking in Trove, Caulfield Technical School ran courses in Coach Building, Farriery, Blacksmithing, Memory Drawing, Geometrical Drawing, Engineering Drawing, Model Drawing, Drawing From a Flat Example, Drawing Plant Forms From Nature, Mechanics and Heat, Millinery, Dress Making, Applied Mechanics, Algebra, Geometry, Carpentry (a very popular course), Turning and Fitting, Machine Shop Practice, Typing, Shorthand, Plumbing, English (Student teachers), Commercial English, Economic Geology, Signwriting, Milling and Gear Cutting, and Bookkeeping. And probably others too.
However, the single thing that unites all the numerous examination results listings from Caulfield Technical School that appear in Trove (I’ve checked up to 1927) is the complete absence of anything close to “C Webb”. So, despite the College’s excellent physical proximity to Malvern, it’s currently looking to me very much as though Carl Webb didn’t go there after Swinburne. Which is a shame, but eet ees what eet ees.
So… where next?
Hence we’re back to the eternal question – carve it on thy gravestone, O researchers!
Was there a different technical school in the south-east Melbourne suburbs that I’ve completely missed? Or did Carl Webb instead take up some kind of part-time / evening apprenticeship with a local firm? If the latter, we’re probably close to the end of the line here… but never say never, etc etc.
And yet… having now read up on how Senior Technical Scholarships work (they were awarded at a State level), I’m looking again at the 1921 scholarships awarded locally by Swinburne (on p.8 of The Swinburnian), which is where the Swinburne ball first (or do I mean “furst”?) started rolling:
SCHOLARSHIP WINNERS FOR 1921.
Engineering.—Day Course: H. R. Corr, L. A. Clegg, A. E. Dubberlin, A. O. Griffiths, A. G. Marshall, H. T. Popple. Evening Course: W. H. Sydserff, W . G. Gosbell, J. G. Endersbee, C. Webb.
My best guess now is that these were scholarships awarded by Swinburne to their best students to enable them to continue their education at any (i.e. not just Swinburne) Technical College or University in Melbourne / Victoria. So perhaps the route forward here is to (somehow) look at all Melbourne further education institutions offering evening courses in electrical engineering (or similar) in 1922. My starting point list of these looks like this (though I don’t yet know which specifically offered evening classes):
- Melbourne University
- Footscray Technical School
- West Melbourne Technical School
- Collingwood Technical School
- Castlemaine Technical School
It’s also possible that Webb used his scholarship money to stay in Maribyrnong with Freda Keane and Gerald Thomas Keane during this period (in which case Footscray Technical School would seem the most likely), but that’s no more than a hopeful guess at this point.
What do you think?
An apprenticeship would be one possibility. There was less emphasis on paper qualifications to get work in those days, and it looks as if the family was under financial pressure. Even an apprentice-wage would be better than the expenses of full time study if he hadn’t managed to a gain a scholarship.
Maybe he had a wife and a young daughter to care for. Just because something isn’t in a newspaper doesn’t mean it’s not true. I think far too much emphasis is being placed on trivial newspapers cuttings. From the research and information I’m gathering Carl Webb was an incredibly selfish bully that only cared about himself. He treated others around him absolutely appallingly. There is initial information to suggest that he was attracted to very young woman. One person only being 15 years old. I recall that Keith Mangnoson’s wife Roma was only 15 when he started a relationship with her. Didn’t Keith identify the Carl Webb as Carl Thomsen?.
Is there anyway to check the records at the crippled children’s home?. What if Carl had a child or relative with Polio?. Carl could have been boarding with the Thomsons as they live close to the children’s home.
Very good, Nick!
If this is the SM, now we know that his ‘official’ name at school was Charles. How would that work in relation to the laws of the time? Could this be allowed to avoid anti-German issues? Not that all ‘Carl’ are of German origin, but I couldn’t find many Carls living in the Melbourne area around that time in the records available on MyHeritage, FamilySearch, etc.
“The Education department annually awards 55 senior technical ‘scholarships to candidates who have been in regular attendance for at least two years at junior technical schools, … and registered secondary schools … Of these scholarships … 25 [go] to boys and girls in employment who wish to take evening courses… Students granted scholarships in evening courses receive free tuition and an allowance of £10 a year. ”
…
[The Argus 30 Jan 1920 p8 SENIOR TECHNICAL SCHOLARSHIPS.]
Theres a bunch of schools in the list that follows and the scholarship winners for 1920. Haven’t found an equivalent for 1921 yet, but it looks like he’d done the two years needed to qualify for the education dept scholarship then got a job and a place on an evening course.
13 July1923
COLLINGWOOD had Howe, Brown, Cock, and
Webb under observation for minor injuries last Saturday…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2002224?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1923%2F07%2F13%2Fpage%2F424423%2Farticle%2F2002224
Pat: excellent find – might the answer be Collingwood, then?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2137251 Webb with a long kick for Collingwood.
Ah, that might well be Reynolds Webb.
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/reynolds-webb/
Nick and Jo, congratulations on sleuthing done expertly!
Here’s the published results for Swinburne’s 1922 exams that @Jo found, Electricity and Magnetism 62, lists his full name as Charles Webb. Results printed in Jan ’23.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1868398?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1923%2F01%2F12%2Fpage%2F422336%2Farticle%2F1868398
Yes, probably.Lots of news about him…
Hi Nick –
The 1926 reference is a typo – it should be 1916. Eldest brother, Richard Russell Webb, was seeking an exemption to service in World War I on the basis that his father had a leg injury and he, Russell, needed to keep the family business running as his brothers were at school. This was during the family’s Camperdown years. Russell also married in 1917 and had his first child soon afterwards, so I think he was probably keen to stay in town, near Amy!
I believe Charlie, as a young working class boy, finished his schooling in 1922, at the age of 17. This was at a time when the minimum school leaving age was 14. Employment and further training on the tools is my hunch. We know he also continued to work in the family business. I wonder where Richard Augustus Webb worked during the Oakleigh (Kangaroo Road Murrumbeena) days? Incidentally the Glenferrie Road Malvern bakery is still around, but as a medical practice. It is a beautiful old shop and dwelling.
My hunch in terms of Charlie’s employment is Kelly and Lewis, engineers and pump makers. The company was established in 1899 and in the 1920s moved to a large factory in Springvale, with the move completed in 1927. There may be records of Charlie at Kelly and Lewis – there are some archive boxes, including pay sheets, at the University of Melbourne. (Reference details posted on a previous thread). I can provide details for any Melbourne based people able to look and know a few of the archivists. There are also some great Wolfgang Sievers photos of Kelly and Lewis, but from 1949 and later, so no Charlie in Wolfgang’s famous 1949 sea of faces “Shift change at Kelly and Lewis”…
I also have a hunch that Charlie played for Springvale Football Club. Any footy historians and enthusiasts out there? The photo of the 1930 Premiership team (Berwick District) provided by an old player was unclear and inconclusive but there might be more copies out there, players list etc… I’ll try the Casey Demons again…
It appears that Doff had family near South Yarra (Albert Park/Middle Park). The other thing about the area of course is those erstwhile mansions of espionage! (Now mainly dreary flats). I drove past Charlie’s place yesterday on the way to the market and within five minutes had passed a number of the key sites.. The Domain area of South Yarra and nearby Queens Road were where key WWII signals and intelligence work was located. I’ll draw what I know onto a Melways Map & email it! If Charlie and possibly Doff were involved in this type of work – even for Charlie, just setting up and servicing equipment, the trail might run dry! Going to bed at 7pm might be based on getting up at 3am! (A habit learned in the bakery years…).
This for me would explain family silences, there may have been talk in the family of Charlie’s disappearance for years. I know from my own family history that working class families often just want to lie low in the face of trouble, rather than engage with authorities. I share my name with an uncle who died as a young man, in custody, after a naval desertion in Malaysia in the early 1950s and a physical fight with naval authorities. It’s a more complicated story where offical paper work & family stories intersect rather than correspond! He has an unmarked grave near Birmingham jail in the UK but was the son my grandmother and aunts spoke of the most. My dad wanted to cause a stir at the time but his parents said, “let it go” because people could simply make life harder for them…
Granted it’s 25 years later, but if Webb had played for Collingwood (or another VFL side), wouldn’t there at least have been people speculating such to the police after seeing his pic?
I also wonder that if tech colleges were recently new, then perhaps there’s a big workforce demand (because all those who used to go into an apprenticeship are now spending a few years studying). As such, I would imagine a partially-qualified student might find lucrative work before completing their qualification, and then develop further on the job….
Charles being a minor attracted person (MAP) as you allege, Glen, I would suggest that provides another reason for being near the Cripples’ Home since that institution was rife with sexual abuse. I’ve seen it alleged that Jestyn worked at the Home also.
In addition the fact that Somerton was a homosexual meeting place gives added credence to the notion of his deviance from the law. It wasn’t even a nice part of the beach.
Is it not possible that the man was murdered because he was a paedophile with money? That would explain the involvement of a bunch of locals and their unwillingness to identify him.
Shades of Edward Gibbon Wakefield. Terrible place, Adelaide.
06 Aug 1925
ENGINEERING STUDENTS
ENTERTAIN.
Ingenious Decorations at Wilson Hall.
Members- of ‘the’ Engineering Students’
Club entertained anumber of guests at
their nnriual ball in the Wilson Hall on’
Friday,’ July 24
(…)
Among the men were: .Messrs. T. W.
Morley, F1. Green, K. Shields, H. Brain,
G. Connor, A. Simpson, F. Suplet, X.
Goldsplnlt, B. S. Miller, W.’ Ash, J.
Meagher Eldridge. C. Webb
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146183042?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FT%2Ftitle%2F713%2F1925%2F08%2F06%2Fpage%2F17439313%2Farticle%2F146183042
Glen, A few years ago I tried to obtain information on the Crippled Childrens Home, Somerton Beach. From the reply I received it was a complete no-no to my request. Whatever information the authorities have on the CCH, they are not willing to divulge. I understand that the organisation called ‘Novita’ keeps these records. I wonder if these records/information will ever be released?
The Doff years – abundant local opportunities for war time signals and intelligence related work…
We know that shortly after moving to Bromby Street, South Yarra, Charlie sold his car (16 February 1942).
There was also an advertisement placed in newspapers in 1942 by National Service recruitment for people with electrical fitting, instrument making and radio related skills to step up and contact them.
I have mapped out locations where signals and intelligence services were based within walking distance of Bromby Street (I’ve emailed Nick with a map) and have come up with a list of 12 (with assistance from Peter Dunn’s excellent Oz at War site and my own local knowledge):
1. Kellow House – RAAF Signals Unit Receiving Station (2 doors down from Charlie’s place)
2 Melbourne Grammar School (across the road) – Australian and American forces.
3. MacRobertson’s Girls High School – Headquarters, US Army Forces.
4. “Monterrey” Appartments, Queens Road, Special Intelligence Bureau, FRUMEL
5. “Grosvenor” 55 Queens Road, Australian Army Cipher Production Unit
6. Fawkner Park – 33 AWAS Barracks, women’s signal training camp
7. “Cranleigh”, 225 Domain Road, Central Bureau and Netherlands Forces Intelligence Services
8. “Airlie” 260 Domain Road – Special Operations Australia
9. “Harbury” – 39 Acland Street – Services Reconnaissance Department
10. Fawkner Park – 33 AWAS Barracks – Women’s signal training camp
11. Melbourne High School, Royal Australian Navy 1942-44
12. Victoria Barracks
There may never be definitive proof that Charlie was employed in this area, nor of what happened next…
I also wonder whether it is worth throwing some “ands” in with the “eithers” – eg Baccarat dens, dodgy car trade with Prosper T.
There are some weird and wild theories that crop up in the CM comments… Here’s another:
Charlie was reeled in through his dodgy car work with Prosper T and persuaded to offer up some names for a payment (the letters in the Rubiayat?). Perhaps the Rubaiyat was a signal to people he needed to meet that he had something to offer? Having offered up some names Charlie sensed that something was wrong (a quick Tamam Shud in the pocket and throw the book in a random car…). As a humble electrical fitter and instrument maker who had served his use, Charlie was murdered and his body was left to be found in a very public manner… dead men can’t speak but can still broadcast messages. That’s the best I think I can offer! All of it hypothetical…
I do think, behind all the mystery, it is worthwhile work providing a bright boy and hard working man, who died a very sad death, with a tangible biography, even if it can never be complete.
@ Pat – one school entry lists him as Charlie. There was one Carl in the school and quite a few obviously German names. I had a discussion last night with a friend whose ex wife has a German Australian background, the family came to Australia at a similar time to Richard Augustus Webb. First of all he believes Webb is an Anglicisation of Webber or something similar. He said that German communities were often accepted but it was harder to be a German amongst Anglos. People with longer standing, good social capital or in smaller communities were often more accepted – eg the Webb family in their Springvale bakery years. Springvale was a smaller, industrialising urban fringe community.
@ David Morgan
You seem to know your military history… Do the letters on the Rubiayat correspond at all with names of people at any of the military establishments in South Yarra? Eg I’d begin with a less common name such as JJ Querre NEI Section at Airlie… There probably wouldn’t be a perfect match as we will probably never know exactly who was where… I don’t know what level of match would be admissible… ? Just another wild idea!
Pat: now that is a very good lead, well done! I’m now off to the University archives (online) to see what’s there to be found…
Jo: of course it’s a typo for 1916, my (cut and paste) mistake.
All the same, the courses Webb took at Swinburne Junior Technical College would not have given him training to be an electrical fitter, so I think there’s a pretty strong likelihood he used his scholarship to get that training in-state (and very probably close to Melbourne).
Along those same lines, Pat has just turned up a (single) reference to a “C Webb” in the University Engineering Club, so perhaps Derek Abbott had more information than us on Carl Webb when he referred to him early on as an “electrical engineer”.
I suspect the University may well be our next collective port of call, archive-wise. Bear in mind that the Internet has access to no more than 5% of the stuff that’s actually in archives!
Mary: good find, thanks!
Jo: typo in post now fixed!
Jo: I’ve just submitted a student card request to Aeon (for Carl Webb’s student details), so let’s see what comes back before we get too excited…
@ Nick – excellent! You’re very onto it! I would be reasonably surprised if Charlie had made it into the UoM in the 1920s. Even in the 1980s most students came from a small clutch of private schools. I was very surprised, having studied at an industrious but rowdy UK comprehensive school, that I was sitting next to a an ex prime minister’s daughter in one of my first tutes!
@ David Morgan
If the letters do correspond with names of people at the military mansions, the lines between the letters in the Rubiayat could be a geographic aide mémoire – eg before & after St Kilda Road, or before & after Park Street. They remind me of tram tracks… There are tram tracks on both of these streets & they sort of separate the different HQs and areas into sub neighbourhoods…
Oh gosh, a trip to the grocery will never be the same again! Actually, the old grocery, at 133 Domain Road (most recently Entrecôte restaurant) was run in the 30s & 40s by a Miss M Robertson, just another Somerton Man happenchance!?!
MLIABOAIAQC = Airlie?
Mott
Lomax
Israel
?
Buesst
Oldham
?
?
Querre
Chipper
Anyone game to improve or tackle one of the others?
Jo: well, I can’t find our (young) man in any of the University of Melbourne Calendars from the late 1920s (which are online), which might imply that Webb didn’t finish his degree course.
@Jo
Thanks for your great input. As a matter of fact, Richard August Webb’s father was a Weber, Johannes Friedrich Weber. I have posted on here his name being mentioned in the Hamburg public archives as ‘Collectors of taxes on Market and Petty Trade: Mr. Johannes Friedrich Weber’.
@All
Some C. Webb’s on Trove (sorry, I don’t have time to check all of them now, and I know some of them are highly unlikely to be him, but as I have never been to Australia, unfortunately, I can’t know which ones without further research)
Granya FC (1928)
Ormond: wording for Henry Berry & Co (1924)
John Spring’s School Old Boys: from Collingwood (1926)
Ballarat League: from Ararat FC, half-back, (1926)
Sports at Gembrook (1927)
Dance at Kew (1924)
Gong from Carlton FC to Northcote, Yarra (1924)
COLLEEN SPILLS THE BEANS
SHOCK NEW REVELATIONS BLOW CASE WIDE OPEN
SEARCH NOW ON FOR DOROTHY
A few days ago I contacted Derek Abbott to ask him what he knew about Dorothy. My colleague Ann reported to this site on my findings on 18 August but no-one was interested. perhaps they should have been. Probably this was because of the dislike for Abbott many here seem to have.
To quote what Derek told me:
““The only evidence we have of her in Bute is she signed a divorce document in 1951 and gave her residence as Bute, South Australia. But the Bute town history group have nothing on her in their records. This leads me to suspect she just was transient and maybe stayed on a farm there for less than a year. I wonder if between 1947 and 1951 she was in Adelaide itself? Adelaide would certainly need to be a step before Bute, as it would be unlikely that she would know anyone from Bute coming ‘cold’ from Victoria. So a good bet would be to search for her on Adelaide Rate Books.
As for what happened to her later in life, all I have are oral statements from relatives that she is known to have died in NSW in the late 1990s and that her sister sent money to pay for her funeral. So I suspect she didn’t stay too long in SA and wound up in NSW for the rest of her life. The difficulty with tracking her maybe due to name changes through serial marriages or otherwise.”
I then pointed out that there is a record of her registering on the electoral roll for 1949 living in 69 Murphy Street Elsternwick, Melbourne. Derek replied “69 Murphy St is correct I believe.”
Now everything has been turned upside down. On Gray Hughes Investigates (August 20) Colleen recounted the following tidbits from the divorce papers per Dorothy.
Carl Webb was moody, had rages smashed dishes in the sink.
He was often depressed, gambled, asked his wife for money.
Carl’s mother got ill and Dorothy looked after her.
He wasn’t working.
He wrote poems about death and frequently said that he wished he was dead.
Dorothy came back to their residence one day and smelt ether. She found Carl in bed soaking wet and he had taken 50 tablets of phenobarbital.
She saved him but he told her that if he got better he will kill her.
She left him, not the other way round. He then left the address and possibly went to live with the Keanes.
He had started to sell off lots of his stuff. Gambling debts?
Derek and Colleen have been trying to find out what happened to Dorothy but have had no success. As Derek told me her sister (Phyllis Crick) sent some money to pay for her funeral in NSW in the 1990s. Colleen revealed that they spoke to the son of Phyllis, ie Dorothy’s nephew, who was quite elderly at the time, and he gave them the details.
Colleen also said that they found out that Dorothy had been a pharmacist. She speculated that Dorothy may have left the pills around in the hope that Carl would take them, or perhaps something even more sinister went down.
Apologies if all this has already been posted. @milongal will tell me that he has known all of this all along.
Over to you now. Who can be the first to find out what happened to Dorothy?
Over to yo now. .
Link to the video I mentioned:
https://youtu.be/EcsNwj_S1js
Sorry about all the typos. That’s what comes about doing things in a rush.
Hi Steve – That sounds about right about Carl.
The descendants of the people that knew Carl are saying the same sorts of thing to me in our online group. Apparently he was quite the bully and was addicted to a painkilling drug. He had something wrong with his legs and at times was in constant pain. For Dorothy to leave drugs around hoping he would take them indicated a woman at their wits end. I’m not surprised that she left him because her predecessor did the same and moved the other side of the world to get away from him. More will come out in due course once SAPOL have concluded their discussions with various people. Perhaps Dorothy was just really scared of him so she covered her tracks.
The suggested drug for his suicide Kombetin would be for arthritis. But it would have been a prescription drug in Germany not Australia.
@Steve H, I have read all your posts and have taking them seriously and I have absolutely nothing against Derek Abbot or anyone related to the SM’s investigation, just for the record.
The ether bit is interesting because chloroform and the anesthetic halothane can cause hepatic centrilobular necrosis, which I think it was one of the post-mortem findings. I’m currently investigating his massive splenomegaly in relation to possible conditions or drugs involved.
Sorry for the typos… my notebook keyboard is playing up!
@Steve H: I have no reason to claim I knew any of that – the Webb alley is one we’ve only been down since Abbott’s announcement. But apologies if I’ve gotten under your skin at some stage – seems to happen a lot in these discussions….
The posts about his severe leg pain (assumed after playing football for 10 years) would mean he needed painkillers on the beach but none were found on his body, in his body or in his suitcase. He was a drug addict without any drugs or alcohol on or in his body.
@ Nick
There is no trace of Charlie at the University of Melbourne, but what about Dorothy? In the link provided by @ Steve (an interview with Dr Colleen Fitzpatrick), Dorothy is a pharmacist by the time of the divorce. She may have been a Commonwealth Reconstruction Training Scheme recipient (following some kind of war service), this would have enabled her to transition from foot specialist to pharmacist. There is a locally well known 97 year old former Deputy Lord Mayor who trained as a pharmacist through this scheme, through the Victorian College of Pharmacy – Wellington Lee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington_Lee
https://melbourne-cshe.unimelb.edu.au/research/research-projects/policy-and-management-in-higher-education/universities-and-postwar-recovery-1943-57 – this project is looking at the CRTS scheme – I emailed one of the researchers, James Waghorne, some time ago, about Wellington Lee (because I knew Wellington Lee, though not well, from when I worked at the City of Melbourne, some time ago). I didn’t receive a reply…
W/M RGOABABD
or
WTB IMPANETP
= Grosvenor and/or Monterrey? Eg:
Monterrey
R
Graves
O’Connor
Archer
Barnes
A
Burnett
Davies
(but no mention of Nave)
@Pat – I’m demonstrating yet again that I’m a bit of a newbie! I should have realised that you would be onto Webb/Weber! 🙂
Forgive me if someone else has mentioned this; haven’t time to read all the other comments at present.
The most important tech. college in Melbourne for almost a century, before it became ‘university-ised’ by a government make-money agenda, was Melbourne Tech, in easy reach of Melbourne’s chief railway station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Royal_Melbourne_Institute_of_Technology
Back in the 20’s, Oakleigh was pretty much rural – what transport to the city there might have been back then, I don’t know, but it was always possible to arrange a regular lift with some local carter, like the newspaper delivery run, or the postie. (In those days mail was still delivered twice a day, according to an aunt of mine, and there was also a delivery on Saturday morning – hard to imagine the same combination of the casual and the efficient now).
Wow Glen !! That’s a pretty unflattering picture you are getting of Carl.
I’m still stuck on the Rubaiyat letters being a list of names that an unhinged Charlie was persuaded to shop for a sum (perhaps in a sting?). Two features stand out for me:
– the double TTs in the last line – they could be Professors Trendall and Treweek, Classics professors and master cryptographers from the University of Sydney, who stayed in Melbourne and joined Signit. They often seem to be mentioned as a pair.
see:https://www.ozatwar.com/sigint/hut9.htm
– the inclusion of a Q – there aren’t a huge number of words or names beginning with Q – such as Lt JJ Quere – Netherlands East Indies intelligence, at Acland Street and Airlie.
https://www.ozatwar.com/sigint/nefis.htm
I think of Charlie as perhaps being like “the IT guy” who sets up, services and fixes machines, rather than as someone doing coding and deciphering work (though I’m sure he would have like to…) – ie he might know who is on the ground, but not necessarily what they are doing.
I don’t think I’ll get to the bottom of this but at the moment its worth putting it out there as one of the many wild hypotheticals!
Thedude747, Glen??? First he claimed he was a member of MARSHALLFILES. Then he said he searched on way back machine. THEN he said he had been banned. Well, the website has not existed for years. So only the wayback claim can be true. He claims to know all about poor Charlie Webb. The people talking to him and to Steve H are full of s! Glen, Steve and their best friend Colonel Sanders don’t know diddly squat. The Somerton Man was a tormented gay genius. As a lesbian woman of color I have a great deal of sympathy for him. Fact is his wife was a Jewish criminal murderess and part of a Sapphic cult of pharmacists and lesbian chiropodists. They conspired with his gay lover Thomson to murder him.
Jo,
The names on the ‘tram ride’ that match the code – are they in the specific military intelligence offices or in houses on the route?
I quite liked the idea he remembered the 1941 residents in streets who just happened to work for military intelligence.
There is a second Marshall Files website.
There is also a closed down Marshall Files Website. (which is searchable via wayback).
I was banned from the second Marshall Files Website.
The information on Carl Webb is from a private Facebook group I’m a member of. The members of which are verified and one of them is quite well known.
Everyone in the Facebook group are actually working really hard. We set ourself tasks and we collate information too. As I’ve said before some members are potential family members of Carl and are working with authorities. They are not interest in contributing to news articles or programmes like 60 minutes either.
Curious here. Is Carl(or Charles) and Dorothy on the Australian censuses, and if not why not? Also, if he was had such renown as a bully…why wouldn’t all these people that knew him, report it after he died? Whatever they thought of him seems like there is some obligation there.
Whatever, man. Lucky you stumbled on the secret.
In 2001 Byron Deveson noted that there were three files dealing with the SM case in the Australian Archives. Unfortunately, he did not look at them at the time and when he checked recently the three files were no longer listed. Why would these files have been removed?
When the case is said to be known ‘at a higher level’ this makes sense.
Helen Foxton / Ayuverdica
Why the link to porn sites when your names are clicked?
Quite Vile! 🤮
I don’t think the case was ever known at a higher level. People will say anything to get the Police off their backs.
Why don’t you email the Australian Archives (for which I’ve just done) and ask them.
Here is the link:
https://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/contact-us
Sounds like Carl, to me, might have been a person of delicate sensibilities and should have moved to the US or the UK perhaps where his gifts could have been more understood. Edgar Poe had a very mysterious death too, and framed up against something like this…well you get it. Poe however has incredible, deserved worldly renown. His father John Allan, no doubt rich to his dieing breath, not so much, eh dude?
I’m jumping ahead thinking this might the final outcome, but it seems mind have been made up,
Helen Foxton,
and what is very interesting is that those three files were SAPOL files. How did SAPOL files get into the hands of the Commonwealth and how and why were they archived and not returned to SAPOL? There are just too many anomalies in the SM matter. Something stinks.
Glen, moi? Think I’ll leave that to you and others, to get a copy of the census.
I am still taking it all in, atm. Its not as easy as it seems to read blocks of text and then to digest everything. People ar no doubt thinking, “hey thats already been answered!” with folks like me. I know, trust me.
Here is a thing, clean link as far as I know.
https://www.geni.com/people/Carl-Webb-AKA-Somerton-Man/6000000129853684907
He appears to have had German and Scots ancestry. My father use to say half jokingly “when I’m in Scotland, I want to see Glass go!!” or some such
Ayuverdica, I am not sure how seriously to take your suggestions. Maybe a tad trollish. Also, just because you are a sensitive type, it does not make you gay.
So, Dorothy was a pharmacist by the time SM died. And Jessica had a lifelong interest in pharmacology, and an uncle who was a pharmacologist at a time when there would not have been a dozen pharmacologists in Australia. And at the very core of the SM case is probable poisoning.
In defence of Carl Webb.
I feel that with the publication of some matters disclosed in Carl’s divorce documents the general conversation is seguing towards “Carl the monster”. As I have previously documented I think that Carl suffered from a connective tissue disorder. This could account for all the negative personality traits and, if this is the case, then Carl is best viewed as an unfortunate victim of a neuro-psychiatric hereditary disease.
At this point many are probably muttering, so what and does it matter. Yes, it does matter in a broader sense as I will explain.
I should explain that the hypothesis that Carl suffered from a connective tissue disease is testable. It should be of great interest (and value) to Carl’s blood relatives because CTD is very much under diagnosed and can have catastrophic consequences. CTD needs to be more widely recognised, particularly in the medical community.
Recently it has been found that 70% of people with connective tissue disease suffer from personality disorder which is a big ticket psychiatric problem that can degrade every aspect of a person’s life and wreak havoc with those around them. So, in the bigger picture (= society; all of us) the problem of CTD needs to be more widely known and if Carl can act as a poster boy for this condition, then that is a step forward IMHO.
I have previously mentioned the 100,000 genomes projects in various countries where blood samples from 100,000 of “weirdo” patients have been tested for DNA defects. A decade or so ago Governments (UK, Australia, and now others) recognised that 30% of patients were soaking up a disproportionate amount of the health budget because they probably had rare, or rareish, health disorders and their health providers were boxing the compass with multiple tests to try to discover something treatable. So, in Australia in the last 15-16 years if you are a weirdo patient your blood has quietly been DNA sequenced. The results so far have been very successful and you might have noticed that health authorities are now talking positively about general and widespread DNA testing. Twenty years ago in Australia the powers that be wanted to send people to jail for having their DNA tested.
People with CTD can have essentially any symptom under the sun because almost all the bodily organs, including the brain and nervous system can be disordered. Eating disorders are common as are various neuropathies, musculoskeletal disorders and severe pain syndromes. The severe pain can lead to substance abuse.
At present the DNA defects behind CTD have not been completely sorted out but the genes that build connective tissue are relatively few and well known. SAPOL presumably have abundant material to test for defective connective tissue as well as (presumably) full DNA to check for mutations in the various genes. Prof. Abbott’s team has hair samples and at least partial DNA that can be checked for mutations (“variants”) in the various connective tissue genes.
@Matt – Pretty sure census is anonymous (although more recently I think you can volunteer to have your details recorded if you want them to be searchable in the future). They do take some personal information (to verify each household is accounted for), but they are protected under the privacy act. Even if they have kept records (which I don’t think they’re supposed to) they wouldn’t be publicly searchable.
There are people that REALLY want to tell Carl’s story. But how are they meant to do that, if for the rest of their lives their names, photos, personal lives, where their ancestors lived, what they did for a professions are splashed across the internet with endless theories and stories. Is there a solution which can work both ways?
Hi Byron – There are people on Carl’s tree that do in fact have CTD. It’s a horrible illness that really isn’t understood. From accounts I’ve read Carl was on Painkiller type drugs that sent him absolutely crazy. Pain is a funny thing.
Hi Byron – Do you have an email. I have someone that would like to make contact with you to talk further.
Kind Regards
@ David Morgan
These are names of people who worked in military intelligence in the various “mansions of espionage” – houses & apartment buildings in the Domain Road and Queens Road area in the 1940s, buildings that were requisitioned for war service. (Some may have moved to the new Albert Park Barracks in 1943-4). They are in their “house groups” and all within walking distance of 63 Bromby Street. I’m basing a lot of this on Peter Dunn’s Oz at War site…
I also think that the dodgy car trade with Prosper T is still in there…
Helen Foxton: the three NAA files are all complete and available for research.
Byron: a few days back I put a pertinant question to you re odds of Dorothy’s cousin Dr. Bennett having been on hand to give the death pronouncement on her husband Carl. If reqired I have additional details on the doctor Bennett’s untimely departure from his internship employment at Royal Adelaide Hospital in 1948.
Why is there this assumption that anyone associated with this case is a delicate creature who must be handled with kid gloves? You aren’t half as understanding when it comes to your allegations against Roma, ‘Mr Mistry’ and the daughter. Sure, you have some claims you’ve parroted from an Internet forum. What harm would befall Lizzie if she found out her nanna was a murderess? This is Australia, not Olde England. The sins of the mother, of the father, or maybe an uncle at Christmas time? These do not flow to the next generation. So thank you Cath.
@ Bryon Deveson
Just trying to clarify, the Commonwealth government held SAPOL files relating to the investigation? Do you know when?
Thank you for useful information on CTD. I’m going to ask a family member who had low muscle tone as an infant (resolved) & suspected Raynauds, later, as a young person (no current issues and they couldn’t draw enough blood to verify at the time this was an issue) to check this out! The CTD hypothesis would be a useful thing to be in the public domain again, even if nothing is conclusive in this case!
If Dorothy Robertson/Webb had studied in Victoria to become a pharmacist this is where her records might be. The Victorian College of Pharmacy was absorbed into Monash University:
https://www.monash.edu/pharm/about/who/proud-history?collection=&form=matrix&query=past+students
1. Seems more likely that he left Swinburne with enough education to get a job (in an era when technical quals weren’t absolutely essential) in the field he wanted.
2. Looking at his marks, they’re not outstanding and being a fulltime student in that era may’ve been a burden on family finances.
3. I don’t think there’s a direct correlation between his place of residence & any school he went to; eg. the family living at Camperdown could’ve sent him to board in the city during school terms.
4. This schooling is akin to secondary education, not tertiary (Swinburne is a uni these days). So you have students in their mid to late teens taking subjects designed to get them into the workforce straight away. There was no social welfare at this time so families (unless they were wealthy) needed the children to get jobs as soon as practicable. Running a bakery in Springvale doesn’t suggest a wealthy family.
5. So Carl/Charles at 17 years realised he wasn’t a great scholar, needed to get out & earn his keep or, alternately, he was offered/found a job too good to refuse.
The (SA) state library has records from various agencies, possibly including SAPol, but from memory you have to prove SA residency to get free access (and the interface is not real friendly) so I never had much luck finding anything when I used to have access (I’d imagine it’s long since lapsed, and suspect I don’t even have the library card I needed a number/username off anyway).
But I don’t think it would be terribly unusual for files to inadvertently go to the National Archive and even get listed there (especially if it was something like the communication between Adelaide and Canberra – which I think there was a record of on NAA for a while) – perhaps they were returned to SA when the mistake was realised (although if it involved comms with AFP then perhaps it’s not even a mistake)
There was a Charles Webb fined for truancy in a 1926 newspaper.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/214585569?searchTerm=Charles%20Webb
Jo,
a couple of weeks after the article on the SM case in the Weekend Australian (2001 or 2002) a SAPOL detective asked in the Australian or Weekend Australia if anyone had any information regarding the case to contact him. I had searched the Australian Archives and found 4 files dealing with the case. Three were SAPOL files and I conveyed this information to SAPOL. The detective (a Scottish name from memory) asked if I would be willing to access the file and give him a summary. Unfortunately, at that time I was down rabbit holes in Central Australia (looking for uranium) and I had to decline. A few months later when I checked there was no mention of the files in the index and I presumed that SAPOL had ordered them back.
Low muscle tone and Raynauds are common symptoms of CTD. And various types of vasculitis that can cause problems with phlebotomy.
A simple test that can pick up CTD problems with capillaries is to place you hand in warm water for several minutes, then look at the capillaries at the base of the nail fold (ring finger is best). On the internet you will find images of normal and deranged capillaries for comparison.
I mentioned the SAPOL files several times in the past, probably as early as about 2008.
You ever hear’ tell of a 20 year old truant Jim, not in my days, we were out of the compulsary education system at 14.
Hi John,
sorry about the delay but I have been lingering in bed with some Lurgi or other (RATS negative). I fully agree that the coincidence is too much to swallow. Buckley’s IMHO. And this suggests some sort of conspiracy, and this in turn could explain the multitude of things in the SM case that just don’t feel right, things that just don’t compute. Do we know what Dr Bennett’s social milieu was? Did he have any significant connections?
I have long held the belief that family connections and the web (there is that word) of connections between families is far more important in all aspects of life than is generally recognised by the plebs. Sir Anthony Richard Wagner (Garter Principal King of Arms. Ahh! The redolent reek of medieval stuff. His first job was Portcullis Pursuivant of Arms in Ordinary (Ahh again) wrote a book detailing how family connections shaped the world. “Pedigree and Progress: Essays in the Genealogical Interpretation of History.”
John, you might remember hearing in school about Dárcy Wentworth who arrived in the colony of NSW 1790 having narrowly avoided conviction on the capital charge of highway robbery. As a schoolboy I was puzzled by the fact that Dárcy Wentworth seemed to be held in high esteem by everyone and everyone seemed to defer to him in spite of the highway robbery charge (and the convict wives), It was only years later that I discovered that this was because everyone of note in the colony would have been aware that Dárcy’s lineage went back to all the medieval royal families of Europe. Dárcy was more royal than the Hanoverians sitting on the throne back in England,
When Oliver Cromwell strode into parliament and told everyone to piss off he was mainly addressing his relatives. Oliver was partly motivated by inter family jealousy and rivalries but that does not get mentioned.
Glen, Nick can give you my email address. I look forward to talking with you. PS I have CTD
Vagabond,
That all makes good, logical sense.
An independent, family-run bakery, while it offered a solid, reliable income in the 1920s/30s, did not offer the kind of social pull or turnover that would have allowed the Webb children to attend private schools.
He could well have boarded privately to attend a state high school when he was 12–15; in fact, this was relatively common for country kids in Australia before WW2, because high schools were in short supply (except in larger towns/cities). (Both of my parents and their siblings did this, a generation after Carl.)
You’re also right about the status of C. Webb’s classes at Swinburne, which at the time included overlapped high school and technical college. (At a slightly later point, the high school ages/levels were hived off as a separate school, which I believe is now known Swinburne Secondary College.)
It was also the case in the 1920s that most people got trades and professional standing outside technical colleges, i.e. through apprenticeships (or “cadetships” in some kinds of engineering) and actual experience. (If Carl, for the sake of argument, was offered a “good job” with prospects of advancement/a career path towards the end of 1922, that option would likely have been considered a no-brainer at the time.)
To me, Carl residing in leafy South Yarra during the 1940s suggests nothing intrinsically more interesting than the fact that he and Doff were DINKs (very unusual for the time), in relatively well-paid trades. One result of wartime shortages, rationing, price controls etc, was that a lot of people (in theory) had more disposable income.
It’s probably impossible for us now to completely grasp the huge amounts of physical space (i.e. real estate), taken up by the war effort in Australian cities (especially in 1942–45), and the diversity and “population density” of military units – of at least four nationalities, including upmarket residential areas. (Older relatives joked that there couldn’t have been more personnel around if had actually been under foreign occupation.)
Although … since Carl may have had chronic, worsening health issues and, it seems quite possible, a gambling problem, the money may not have stretched too far. Throw into the mix a possibly unintended childlessness (regardless of the cause), and bereavements (among the Webbs) and the prospects for the marriage start to look a bit folorn.
Vagabond: I agree. According to the 1920 prospectus, Swinburne was set up for “lads” to, for example, pass the Government entrance examinations as junior engineers. In 1924, only one Swinburne (“diploma”) graduate went on to university. Tech Colleges were really positioned as an alternative to apprenticeships, although they did accommodated those students that wanted to do an apprenticeship.
The 1921 scholarship was for year 1922 – the names correlate well with those who passed the Algebra Grade I of Dec 1921 (published 2 Feb 1922). Swinburne offered evening courses for State Scholarships students with a job – so they may well of offered their own scholarships in parallel (these names weren’t on lists of state scholarship winners).
I think Charles did 3 years of a three year course. The first two years were full time foundation – his published results are in line with Yr 1-2 subjects from the 1920 prospectus. The third year, we know from his scholarship, was an evening class specialising in engineering (more than likely electrical given the exams) with him already in an appropriate job or apprenticeship.
Because term finished with the exams in December, and the new term started in Feb, my guess is he was employed somewhere as a junior electrical engineer/fitter in January 1922 ready for his final year of evenings at Swinburne.
[see also: The Argus, 15 Apr 1924 p8 TECHNICAL STUDENTS. Finding Employment]
Hi Glen,
I know of CTD patients who went totally nuts due to painkillers. Pain is a big ticket symptom with CTD. Medicines are a potential problem with some CTD patients because the mutations in the collagen genes can alter the metabolism and the elimination of some drugs via the kidneys. Mutated collagen in the kidneys can slow down what is called the elimination of some drugs and this can lead to the drugs accumulating in the body, with potentially toxic effects. I am not sure when codeine tablets became OTC medicines in Australia but codeine could destroy a person (I know one such case).
Before about 1970 mixtures of aspirin phenacetin and caffeine were sold in grocery stores in Australia and anyone who was around then would remember seeing large boxes of Bex powders or APC tablets in many weekly shopping baskets. Taking a Bex powder with a cup of tea was a common ritual. ”A Bex and a good lie down” was the advertising jingle.
About 1970 it became obvious that the epidemic of kidney disease sweeping Australia (and elsewhere?) was down to the phencetin and this drug was rapidly outlawed by the WHO. The aspirin and the phenacetin were in the tablets/powders to relieve pain and the caffeine was added to make it addictive. A nice little earner for some that undoubtedly destroyed countless lives.
It is possible that very large doses of caffeine in a person with reduced clearance of caffeine could cause psychological effects, and rarely seizures and heart dysrhythmias.
Milongal, interesting. In the US there is a 72 year rule. All census records become publically available after 72 years. Is any kind of seperate database kept down there for law enforcement or intelligence purposes for keeping track of people? I read an article from the Guardian talking about recent difficulties with the Queensland police not wanting to investgate murders in areas they find unpleasent. Not a very nice article, so Im sorry if anyone takes offense for me mentioning it. It might make ones ally curious if you folks have a handle on everyone who traverses your territory, though, especially given the SM situation.
You were considering Virginia, for heavens sake. It sounds like a family feud to me of some sort as it stands. I find that privacy rule I guess a little bizarre. FOIA requests, for instance, can be requested to other countries which is something not everyone in the US understands. Not that I would ever wish to make one.
@ Jamie
I agree with your analysis and think that Kelly and Lewis (engineering and pump makers) who established a large factory in Springvale between 1922 and 1927 are a good contender for Charlie’s employer (the business was established in 1899). This would certainly enable Charlie to continue to be “Charlie Webb of the bakery” whilst continuing on with electrical fitting and instrument making. There are four large boxes in the University of Melbourne archives, which include company records, including some pay sheets, up to 1949. If I get chance in the near future I’ll have a browse. This is the reference:
http://gallery.its.unimelb.edu.au/imu/imu.php?request=search
If any other Melbourne people have time to look through I can help to arrange access.
@ Jamie
Sorry – trying again for the Kelly and Lewis reference. This is the University of Melbourne archive reference:
1973.0074 KELLY AND LEWIS PTY. LTD. 1899-1969
http://gallery.its.unimelb.edu.au/imu/imu.php?request=search
Type Kelly and Lewis into “search”
The factory was on the corner of Newcomen and Parsons Roads in Springvale
Further to my last, I wanted to *speculation alert* add that even if becomes clear that Carl Webb was never involved in intelligence work/espionage, law enforcement or criminal activities, it does not necessarily mean that he committed suicide or died of natural causes.
He could still have been murdered as a crime of passion. For example, if Carl came to believe, rationally or not, that he was Robin Thomson’s father (and well, most of us did at some point), his presence may still have become problematic to Jessie and Prosper. Or … Carl could even have been murdered by someone known or unknown to us, for a less likely motive, such as mistaken identity – although obviously that would be difficult to establish, even if the culprit/s could be identified.
@ Jo: very possible as an employee. The other people that were advertising a lot at the time were the State Electricity Commission of Victoria. Maybe a bit speculative regarding location, but they certainly seemed to take on electrical fitters and apprentices.
Thanks for all your input, BTW. It’s very much appreciated.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic., Seg 27 Nov 1933, Page 4
SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS
Diplomas and Certificates
A meeting held in the Assembly Hall
to mark the completion of the teacher training
course of the Sunday school Council of Vic-
toria an address was delivered by the direct tor
of education per McRae and diplomas
and certificates were presented The follow –
ing, were the successful candidates -Last Year
Honour Course Misses Hazel Belcher Jessie
Blair Kathleen Emma Madge Martin Isabel
Mackie Edith Nelson Agnes Thom Diplomas
Misses Mary Williamson Jean Cornish Nell
Lawson Eva Huggins C Nichols and Enid
Ball and Mr F A Sherrin Certificates – Mr
Harold Arms Miss Thelma Smith Mr
John O’Neill Miss Is) Wales Miss Margaret
Baird Miss Kitty Matheson Miss Esi Schache
Miss D Mallinson Miss Doris Naismith Miss
Joyce Jackson Miss E D Hackett Miss Ruth
Helen ing Miss Emily Lock Miss Linda Tame
MR C WEBB MISS DORIS WEBB Miss Hazel
Outhred Mrs N Thompson Miss Mary Brooks
Miss Dorothy Clark Mrs A Dale Miss Agnes
Watson Miss Mars Wilson Miss Linda Tame
was presented with the John Smyth memorial
fund prize
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11715013?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1933%2F11%2F27%2Fpage%2F524271%2Farticle%2F11715013
SOUTH SUBURBAN
BILLIARDS
Results of matches in the South Suburban DU
Burns Association –
South Yarra d Army) and Navy 6 I 660 to
0 1 147 Long d McDonald 300 106 Norman (L
J Webb 300 119 Carter of O’Leary 300 144 Fox
d Lampe 250 lit Hawkins’s Hawkes 250 10s
Langley d C WEBB 250 311 Breaks Long 135
and Dr Norman 04 55 unfinished and 23
Elsternwick d Prahm 0 I 650 to of 1 359 Wood
d Boaden 300 201 Smith d Mcinnes 300 145
Dagley d H am too 97 Dyer d Scott 250 315
Warring d Fire 250 204 Johnson d Da) 250 104
Hawthorn d Elsternwick 0 I 650 to 0 1 173
Cleary d Wood 300 129 Peart d Smith 300 341
Preston d Bailey, 300 306 Heatherington d Djer
250 123 Evans d Johnson 250 245 suggard d
Warring 250-160 Break Crary lot 80 20
unfinished and 36 Peart and Preston each 66
Johnson 54
Matches for this week are -To morrow St
Kilda r Brighton Prahran » Hawthorn Thurs
day Army and Navy v St Kilda.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11163312?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1938%2F05%2F30%2Fpage%2F587609%2Farticle%2F11163312
As a caveat to my opinion about census records, I am in complete sympathy with the privacy protectors who are nervous about this kind of a thing. if it even is a thing. I have avoided the predominant social media for this very reason. A song that really burns in my soul though is Austrailias Midnight Oil’s awesome “Forgotten Years”. Its easy to want to forget the past, when the present often has such immediate and dire consequence. If you forget the past though you (in all deference to my ‘mindfulness’ friends), you are very lost.
Our shoreline however was in fact *invaded* and our country was in *flames* during the war of 1812, which some probably would see as a continuation of the Revolutionary War. I’m guessing its participants would see that differently. It might provide either solace or salt in the wounds depending, but the one bulding that survived the conflagration from memory was the Patent Office
Geni.com is an amazing site in the sense it can tell me that Carl Webb was my second cousin four times removed’s husband’s wife’s great uncle’s wife’s second cousin’s husband’s partner’s husband’s first cousin.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I imagine that most of the western world is related to him in a similar manner.
@ Pat
Very good find re the 1933 Sunday School teachers – this corresponds with the Springvale years, Charlie and sister Doris!
@ Byron Deveson
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=6605503&S=2&N=6&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6605503&T=P&S=3
According to his WWII service record, Charlie’s nephew Charles b 1917 in Camperdown (lived at 97 Punt Road, Prahran) suffered from varicose veins and Class D backache, all in his 20s…
That can’t be Doris as she was already Mrs. Martin… oh well, back to square one. But the billiards’s player is definitely him, lots of newspapers’ mentions of him.
https://midlandexpress.com.au/latest-news/2022/05/26/kyneton-resident-honoured-for-service-during-wwii/
We have just missed possibly one of the last people to know what was happening at Kellow House, two doors away from Charlie’s Bromby Street apartment!
Kellow House would link both signals work and tinkering with cars…
Sorry big mistake in the last post, 100 year old Margaret Emily Green of Kyneton is still alive and well!
Pat,
Again, interesting finds, especially “Mr C. Webb” and “Doris Webb” as sunday school teachers in 1933. The lack of a denomination/s and church parishes/congregations will make it difficult to find out more details. (I think someone has pointed out that one of the Webbs was identified as Catholic, although I would be almost certain that these teachers are protestant, and most likely Anglican, as the majority )
Matt,
I can only agree. Similarly, most (if not all) of the civil birth, death and marriage records for Ireland were destroyed when the GPO in Dublin caught fire, amid the gun battles of the Easter Rebellion (1916).
C. Hagedorn: welcome to our family reunion long lost cousin. Geni’s new Carl Webb site is managed by a great nephew, niece or grand something of ours and they be very well versed in applying the so called ‘six degrees of (convenient) separation’ as gold standard for foolproof reverse engineered DNA genealogy fits.
Pat: might the Charles and Doris at Sunday school be our Charlie’s nephew and niece ? I think Russel Richard had a son and daughter called Charles Richard and Doris Amy. They would be about 14/15 at this time so maybe a bit young but possible.
@Jamie, yes it could be, they were a bit young, but I have no idea how things work/worked in Australia. That’s why I keep posting nonsensical stuff, sorry guys! Yesterday the C. Webbs kept popping up on Trove and I thought at least some of them would be worthy of further investigation. Thank goodness I haven’t posted the one asking permission for an electric poker game in Mildura. John Sanders would have me excommunicated, hahaha. That said… one of the many C.Webb’s mentions regarding billiards shows that played under the Army and Navy team from the South Suburban Billiards Association. Would that make any sense to you guys? Could that matchbox be of this billiards army club?
@ Jo, very interesting about Charles, the nephew (not for him, poor chap). Varicose veins in young men point to an inherited predisposition to vascular (or autoimmune) issues. Maybe uncle Carl had one of them, or as suggested by a member of Abbott’s FB group, he had polio as a child and then post polio syndrome, which can account for pains and the hypertrophy of the calf muscles, although I have only seen photos showing unilateral hypertrophy, but she says there are reports of bilateral hypertrophy as well.
Excellent account of the Billiards Club, Yarraville CYMS Club, in those days…
https://www.eaba.co.uk/?p=5781
Sorry, forget about the army club matchbox, I was confused last night… but what would it mean to be in the Army and Navy team? Was if for army and navy people or just a name?
C. Hagedorn,
Awesome, yes there is a six degrees (or less) operating with me on this as well I did not expect. Not a relative that Im aware. Its hard to know how deeply felt by everyone, it will be until its over. It might be considerable.
Furphy, interesting! I didn’t know that. Crowdsourcing can do amazing things, as we can see from this, so never give up hope. From memory, many military records. were lost in a fire here in the States. We are substantial hoarders here, to the chagrin of many, though I think it basically a good trait. People might want to take a moment while they are thinking about it, if they are a mind to, and write down or esave, listing info on a few generations on both Dads and Moms side. Perhaps even write a short history of your families. One wonders, I guess if it will matter in 2 or 300 years, though it might more than you imagine.
@ Pat – C Webb the army billiards player could be Charlie’s nephew Charles Richard Webb, he was in the army with his home address listed as 97 Punt Road, Prahran, which is in the vicinity of these games, if the dates work out….
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=6605503&S=2&N=6&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6605503&T=P&S=3
97 Punt Road, Prahran isn’t too far from Uncle Charlie, at Bromby Street South Yarra…
I still think the Sunday school reference has legs, do you know the date of Doris’ wedding & could she have begun the course whilst still Doris Webb?
I haven’t been able to establish a Springvale Football Football Club to Charlie yet but there are lots of mentions in the local paper of the club having billiards and pie nights!
Pat,
An “Army & Navy” team, in the South Suburban Billiards League, almost certainly represented this club:
https://stkildamelbourne.com.au/st-kilda-rsl-army-navy-club/
I think membership of such team would have been restricted to ex-servicemen at the time (as an affiliate of the main veterans’ organisation, the Returned Services League). Perhaps they made exceptions for skilled players, I’m not sure.
In Australia, local competitions in games such as billiards and eight-ball pool were (and are) strongly associated with drinking houses, be they pubs (public bars) or (private) clubs.
@Jo and Furphy, thank you very much guys, you rock! I will keep my thoughts to myself from now on, as John Sanders said on another post, my posts are distracting you from serious investigation. If I find anything relevant I will post it on Abbot’s FB page. I have absolutely nothing agains CM or any of you guys, JS included, but I guess you are way ahead of me regarding the SM case. I will keep reading your posts though, as long as Nick doesn’t turn CM into a private boys’ club, hahaha. Stay safe folks!
Last one!
@Jo, Doris married Daniel William Martin in 1923.
Pat,
You will be missed; you have found useful information, and I think subjects like this actually need “outside views” such as yours. Sometimes, it’s only because the non-Australians here ask questions, that we start to think about things.
Hey @pat, you need to stick around, I’ve found your posts totally interesting and enlightening, hope you’ll keep contributing, may as well, hey 🙂
Good on ya. If not, you’ll be missed. Cheers
@ Pat
I think you have found some really useful information and hope you stick around! I’m as local as you can get re Charlie’s last known address and am completely discombobulated and in the dark about everything! In reality none of us really know much. The crumbs you’ve found via clever Trove and other searches are as solid as it gets!
To quote old Omar (or rather his ghost writer, Edward Fitzgerald)
…buried once, Men want(ed Charlie) dug up again.
but
There was a Door to which I found no Key:
There was a Veil past which I could not see:
So far there are so many plots and sub plots and players:
– there’s Prosper T and the dodgy car trade,
– evasive “nurse” Jessie “Jo” Thompson,
– poor Dorothy escaping an abusive husband (with perhaps some assistance via family connections),
– a young lad, with a Polish name, from a family with good union credentials, having a “hectic weekend” involving a stolen motorbike, a stolen car and a suitcase containing socks, a coat and a rifle. (How was your weekend mate: “Hectic!”),
– some serious mental health and medical issues for Charlie (he was also missing a lot of teeth!)
Its a bit of a choose your own (mis)adventure at the moment with everyone putting forward their own chosen script.
To quote the Rubaiyat again:
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire.
Would not we shatter it to bits – and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart’s Desire!
I was drawn in by the proximity of Charlie’s Bromby Street home to the erstwhile mansions and training camps of WWII espionage and signals work but I think that will simply be a dead end! The grand masters are all dead and gone!
…Sultan after Sultan with his Pomp
Abode his Hour or two and went his way.
The truth is probably a bit sadder and a lot more prosaic. There is so much irony that no-one wanted to discover Charlie at the time but now we are all scrambling away! Which in many cases is more about us, than him!
I hope you write and publish your essay, I think the current search for a coherent narrative makes for an interesting story in itself!
I am starting my own reinvestigation of this case (grand thing that I am) so I got myself a copy of Kerry Greenwood’s “Tamam Shud – The Somerton Man Mystery” as a 20$ ebook off Apple Ibooks. The Feltus book while looks like it might ge good is $250, too rich for my level of interest, atm. Its good, I read about Constable Moss and Detective Strangway, I wanted to know who the investigators are, for a nice solid grounding, in the matter.
Kerrys father, Al, was sure the the SM was an American because he had “Sharp” clothes, though strangely they were heavy as if he came from somewhere cold.
The next thing is pretty interesting in that the clothes in the suitcase had dry cleaning numbers that no one could identify. What? This sounds like specific work for a dry cleaning detective, and I imagine that might have been worked out now. Has anyone ever ventured down this road of inquiry? Having studied the Voynich Manuscript In I know it can be kind of irritating when you know a case almost inside out to have amateurs trotting stuff out. Why would he appear to many as an American if he wasnt though? Numbers provided on request. Ask me anything.
Australian sleuths – Jennifer Mills has a piece on the Somerton Man in the September edition of the the Monthly. I think she may be the person who had been tracking down information at the PROV. I’m not a subscriber so am waiting for the hard copy to hit the newsagents… (Monday?). The blurb is suggesting a dark side… (ie reference to the naming and shaming of…). It could be more of what has already broadcast about Charlie and Dorothy’s sad marriage. I’ll let you know! It could be too femo and/or multicultural for sad old Sputimus, if he’s still lurking…
I have to admit, I don’t know if I’m still in if it does turn out that he was an abusive sponge of a husband, but who knows what is real right now?
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2022/september/jennifer-mills/somerton-man-science-and-myths
Was the Melbourne connection dropped after Eric Nave had seen the letters in the Rubiayat?? Did he recognise a potential Melbourne connection??
Jo: I don’t think it was claimed categorically that Eric Naive was the navy expert referred to as being asked to take a look at the code. He had been in Adelaide at about the right time visiting his Father on pre discharge leave from memory but, so would others of like qualifications. I’d say no but what would I know?
Matt,
As is often the way, it’s difficult to shake ideas with a superficial plausibility, once they take hold. I mean, I always thought the “American theory” was slung on a slender hook. There were (as Jo and others have pointed out), tens of thousands of US servicemen in Australia in 1942–45, to leave behind “American” clothes, aluminium combs etc. The fact that SM chewed gum was also offered as evidence, ignoring the fact that I raised here several years ago: Wrigley’s had had factories in Australia for more than 35 years by 1948. (My grandfather, in the same age bracket as Roy and Carl Webb, perpetually had a hand rolled cigarette in his mouth, except when he was chewing Wrigleys, eating, drinking or talking, and he didn’t do much talking.) Then there was the notion that SM’s DNA was linked to the Randolph family of Virginia and, through them, to Thomas Jefferson and Pocahontas. I guess that fell through (possibly because the connection was much further back than it at first seemed). And also … even if it were correct, thousands of Australians share the same links, through families that back-migrated from Virginia to England, and later, from there to Australia. (One such, the Stow family of literary, judicial and clerical fame, has been extremely proud of its links to 17th and 18th century America colonial history, to the point of often using “Jefferson” as a second name and one of the better known Stows, being the novelist Randolph Stow, firmly believed himself to be a direct descendant of Pocahontas.)
Jo,
Oh dear. I sincerely hope that Mills isn’t going to try a quick hatchet job based on _literally_ one-sided divorce proceedings. We will see, I suppose.
Furphy,
Interesting, I didn’t know about reverse migration to England and then to Australia, so again you have enlightened me! As for Stow, maybe they are related to Madeleine Stowe, the lovely American actress, who I at least know from Gilliam’s 12 Monkeys. Omiinously evidence of a time travel element here, lul. Pocahantas is incredibly jand justifiably beloved still, though I’ve heard she had more than a million decendents. I ain’t going to mess with them!
My own love for the case I have to admit has less to do with truth and justice and more to do with its allure. I don’t really harbor the illusion he is an American, mine has more to do with the idea he was a man of some great importance. At least vin my little mind I truly think this. Where logical or not.
Matt,
quite a few Americans migrated to Australia during the Australian gold rushes (1851 to about 1900) including some runaway slaves. I remember that Australian genealogists forty years ago were searching for a full blood American Indian, a chief no less, who had migrated to Australia. And during the American gold rushes Australians went to America. The “Sydney Ducks” are but one example. None of my direct forbears went to North America, but a lot of my co-lateral lines did, so most of my 40,000 plus DNA matches live in the USA or Canada.
Australian politician Arthur “Cocky” Calwell was descended from one of the US Presidents and politician King O’Malley was born in the USA.
Matt,
“Pocahantas … I’ve heard … had more than a million descendants.”
My personal favourite is Charlemagne who, because he lived around 1,200 years ago, is statistically likely to be an ancestor of everyone of European descent now living, probably several times over. (Of course, non-famous peasants who lived at the same time had just as many descendants – it’s just that we seldom know the names of those 9th century peasants.) Pocahontas, having lived 400 years ago, has a chance of having a million living descendants, although a quick bit of integer-ing suggests that a figure in the hundreds of thousands is more likely. Even the relevant Pocahontas descendant, Elizabeth Randolph Eppes (1797–1867), who migrated to South Australia as Mrs Stow, probably has a few thousand living descendants.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Eppes-160
Great aunt Minnie, our well travelled family historian claimed we were related on her matriarchal side to some old frog fart with a double bunger monicker, Simon de Montfort of Leicester. On her dad’s side there were Virginia connections of well known 19th cent. American novelist Hariett Beecher Stowe that be immortalised in her classic Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Some interesting bloodlines but nothing to do with Carl Webb, strange as it may seem.
Aren’t you Swinburne tech. photo hacks on the wrong thread page, the one that was meant for just such tedious and trivial pursuits serving no agenda but, self fullfilment to them’s what picks sixteen year old Carl’s likeness from the also rans.
john sanders:
This hack does agree that a page like this, or the football photo one, would be a much more appropriate place for such discussion. Unfortunately, seeing a comment on one page and replying to it on another (however more appropriate a destination it is) might make carrying on the conversation just a bit trickier. I too wish that we could keep our posts to each page a bit more on topic!
Perhaps we will get our very own super snore-worthy page dedicated solely to all photos of Webb (or perhaps we might collectively claim a relevant preexisting one) so that you may be spared such boring chatter entirely. Provided we can manage to keep our trivial speculations contained there, of course. 😉
ChatGPT told me that Swinburne Technical College was the first to offer radio engineering in 1926. The Swinburnian student magazine had an article on building your own crystal radio set. Could this be a lead for Carl Webb and where he went after 1926? (if true!!!)
Another factor (lie?) was it said “Furnley Maurice” wrote the Swinburnian magazine in the 1920s.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50146597?searchTerm=%22Furnley%20Maurice%22
Possible leads or dead ends.