Once I found (from the Victoria electoral rolls) that Carl and Dorothy Jean Webb‘s address in 1942 was 63 Bromby street, the blindingly obvious next step was to look for any small ads at that address. So, in the spirit of keeping up with the Abbotts, here’s what I found (it’s not a massive haul, but it is what it is)…
The Small Ads
16 Feb 1942 – The Argus (same in The Age)
MORRIS 8 40 Roadster 1937 only two private owners mechanically splendid. Inspection after 6. £110 Cash only. C Webb 63 Bromby-st, South Yarra (behind Kellow’s)
ELECTRIC Shave Master. £4/10/; Golf Clubs. £4. Saturday afternoon, Webb, 2/63 Bromby st.. South Yarra.
BILLIARD Cue and Case. Joe Davis: also almost new flat-top Tennis Racket. Flat 2. 63 Bromby st.. S. Yarra. Sat, afternoon.
TOOLS. Hand, Engineer’s, Carpenter’s chance. Before 11. Flat 2, 63 Bromby st..South Yarra.
D George
According to Derek Abbott, Carl Webb and Dorothy Jean Webb separated around April 1947. However, someone at the same address (apparently “D George”) then carried on selling cars through the Melbourne small ads for the next few years:
Jaguar, 2.5-litre 1937 Saloon; 2205: PP £450; exch. D George, Flat 2 Bromby-st. S Yarra.
Rover, 1938, identical with current mod, faultless in all detail; PP £444, exch, D George 63 Bromby-st, S Yarra
Lancia, 16 or 17 hp Farina, convertable coupe, 1931, brand new tyres, immaculate car. George, 63 Bromby-st, S Yarra. Sat afternoon.
- 28 Apr 1951: Austin A/90, convertible, fully automatic…
- 02 Jun 1951: Chevrolet 48 Stylemaster, completely overhauled, capped tyres…
- 16 Jun 1951: Panel Van, Austin A/40, brand new; £825…
- 15 Sep 1951: Panel Van, Ford 10/10 appearance and tyres good, low mileage…
- 1 Mar 1952: Consul, new, beige and blue, £50 over list…
Might there be some kind of car dealer connection? Or is all that just a normal Somerton Man coincidence?
According to this guy https://germanaustralianalianstomilitarism.blogspot.com/2011/05/anti-war-german-australian-story.html? his father was German, from Hamburg.
An interesting track! Makes me think of your posts on the second-hand black market and the nurse’s husband Prosper (“George”) Thomson from Glenelg who had been tangled up with some Melbourne gangster second-hand car dealers and wanted to purchase a car in Melbourne:
http://ciphermysteries.com/2019/10/15/the-somerton-man-the-search-for-john-joseph-keane-continues
http://ciphermysteries.com/2017/06/09/daphne-page-vs-prosper-thomson
Certainly interesting. Maybe the old stencilling equipment was to modify some number plates when you pinch a car?
Maybe he even was the nitkeeper working in the Lonsdale St. baccarat school in Melbourne whom two men recognized in the Somerton man’s photo in Jan. 1949.
The Argus, 27 Jan. 1949:
Many claim to identify man in Somerton Beach mystery
RUSSELL st homicide detectives were inundated yesterday with telephone calls from people who said they could identify the man in the “Body on Somerton Beach Mystery.”A number of women claimed the man was their husband, and that he had deserted them.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22698114
The suitcase deposited in the Adelaide railway station contained a screwdriver and a stencil brush. Useful for removing and faking number plates …
Certainly looks that C.Webb closely followed(?) Prosper’s direction in selling anything that was useful, I wonder if they both knew each other, now that would be interesting!
Top stuff! Here are the Sands and McDougall directories listings from 1945:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1O_U6peYk_B4dUsYxQg4wDqHrBOC2kMm2?usp=sharing
Prosper Thomson not only offered a bunch of second-hand cars in numerous newspaper ads, but also this item on 18 December 1948:
“CITY or suburbs. Tudor gold watch. Nearly new; good reward. Thomson 90A Moseley. Glenelg X3239”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43796213?searchTerm=%22×3239%22%20glenelg
Thomas, an electrician’s screw driver – ie. electrically insulated.
The suitcase contained an electrician’s screw driver. These were expensive in the 1940s (see newspaper ads) so this firms up the odds that the suitcase did belong to SM and that SM is indeed Carl Webb.
According to the lawsuit in summer 1948, Prosper Thomson from Glenelg had planned a car deal in Melbourne. Also on 9 January 1949 he went to Melbourne:
A HIRE car leaving for Melbourne, Sunday. 3 seats available. Phone Thomson. X 3239.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43798967
Nick Pelling: I guess it must be considered that implications of your Webb Sth. Yarra ads and similar examples taken from Adelaide small ads are rather stark. No need to be reminded that Jessica appears to have left Melbourne for Adelaide with Prosper in 1947 (see phone directory) where Robin was born in June (not July) of that year and we don’t know for sure whether they ever lived 90a Moseley St. whence most of the ads derived. The subsequent run of post 1950 (note the three year hiatus) in the name of George and D. George reminds me of Prosper’s strange George alias, the ‘D’ standing for Dromana which was then wife Queenie Wilder’s home town. God help us if we have to go through all that again, I’m not at all prepared for yet another round of Thomson hypos.
His dad Richard August Webb was not exactly clean. If this is him (Baker, Germany) he was busted for break and entering 22 Mar 1894
https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/380262:60885?tid=&pid=&queryId=70bde8a9f612badc1ad9c772d8ed6ef9&_phsrc=hkA10&_phstart=successSource
If you follow Charles Webb in the census he lives with his parents until his dad dies in 1939.
So!! No interest in Kellow Falkiner. How much did the security services pay you to shut me up?
Both car dealers.
You and Bowes are losers. Go felch each other you pommy asshole.
The Kellow’s mentioned in the ads refers to Kellows Falkiner (now owned by Patterson Cheney) a large luxury car dealership at 379 St Kilda Rd Sth Yarra. Kellows House was used by the RAAF during the war and it was later sold to the State Electricity Commission and renamed Rubicon House. I think it’s a hotel now. The flat where Carl Webb lived is still standing. It’s possible that the firm’s workers were housed in these flats. The Kellow family owned the entire block. I’m hoping in their archives we will find mention of Carl Webb and hopefully a photo.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22789608?searchTerm=%22kellow%20bromby%22~22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/261919790?searchTerm=%22kellows%20yarra%22~10
https://www.packardclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2000
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/63+Bromby+St,+South+Yarra+VIC+3141/@-37.8348878,144.9762309,3a,64.1y,201.89h,89.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sO1axiq_GZE2gFV0ApmkkfQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DO1axiq_GZE2gFV0ApmkkfQ%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D202.8963%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x6ad642a76880e901:0x2488ab7ed18be4e2!8m2!3d-37.8350442!4d144.976159?hl=en&authuser=0https://www.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&authuser=0
NP: you’ll surely recall that your original Ronald Francis nominee Dr. Malcolm Sarre had his electric ‘Shave master’ stolen in 1947. Wonder where he acquired it and when. Did they have something like ebay in those days? no way Jose!
This may be of interest to someone:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/27/somerton-man-mystery-identity-solved-identified-australia
Let me tell you something.
Carl Webb has been mentioned somewhere in one of the Somerton blogs before: this is a certainty to me. I’m scouring the internet trying to find exactly where.
I think it was either in your comments involving the South African angle or on the Smithsonian page comments. ASIO seems to have had the comments taken down since I last read them. How can we find them? How is Ruth Collins related and the murder of the Beaumonts?
In response to ‘Your Oldest Troll’
I absolutely agree with you.
Carl Webb has definitely been mentioned before.
I’m doing the same at the moment scouring the internet.
Wasn’t there some sort of conversation on the internet about a daughter (or her kids?) selling assets or land or something?. Must have been about 8 years ago. Was it on the Smithsonian?. So Carl Webb’s family could have known all along and have been playing everyone as fools. Obviously if the man was dead and assets are located and they have been transferred. Questions need to be asked!.
Glen: my memory was likewise jogged, though not as far back as Smithsonian. Up until a couple of weeks ago, scouring might have paid off, then we got hit with the Webb telescope diversion, and now this Carl Webb distraction be all over the shop. Only a dedicated pacient researcher stands any real chance in the current climate.
….Have you thought of looking up the now defunct D.A. ‘ask the professor’ Q & A page from a few years back. I Seem to recall some stuff about James and his S.A. based Marshall Files hoax that might connect you with subject Carl and or Webb.
…..Could C. Webb have come from Pakies guest book 1929 to 1966 which is still there on the Abbott inquest site but doesn’t want to come up for some reason. The club used to entertain all the bohemiens and poet buffs and they had their Henry Lawson nights run by Dame Mary Gilmour and the great man’s daughter Bertha, tailored to the likes of Carl Webb & Co.
Bozo: what about Feltus, doesn’t he get a birth on the good ship TORRO TORRO TORRO?
Adelaide was an Eldorado for car thieves:
The Advertiser 26 Sept 1950 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45664186):
Increase In Sale Of Stolen Cars
Police are concerned at the increase in the number of stolen cars being sold in
Adelaide. A police official said yesterday that an amendment to the law dealing with the registration of motor vehicles was required if the racket were to be stamped out. Unsuspecting buyers were losing large sums by thieves selling stolen cars, and could not obtain compensation. Interstate criminals had boasted to Adelaide detectives how easy it was to dispose of stolen cars here, the official added. During the past week a young woman had sold two Austin cars for about £1,200, both of which were found later
to have been stolen locally. In August police had reports of at least five stolen interstate cars being sold in Adelaide. The official explained that it
was possible for any person to register a car in Adelaide with out producing the vehicle. The result was that thieves :ould register a particular type
of car before stealing a vehicle of similar make. After receiving number plates
and registration discs, thieves bad been known to steal cars, remove the engine number and attach the new number plates and registration discs.
This method made it difficult for police to trace stolen cars, particularly interstate vehicles, many of which were brought here and sold because
of the better prices obtained. Detectives believe that, al though it would mean more work for the Motor VehiclesDepartment, the Victorian system of registration should be adopted here: In Melbourne vehicle cannot be registered without the production of a certificate of ownership, issued by
the police. The police also keep a history sheet for each car, showing
through whose hands the cars have passed. The engine number of the vehicle is checked each year with the number on the registration disc.
Can anyone check to see if Carl Webb was on the electoral roll after his death?. Also the pension service carries out a review on an individual when they reach 100 years old. Just putting that out there too!.
Check Cramer’s blog …
Since car thieves also used to scrape off the windscreen labels, see https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169368899, this might have been a possible usage of the knife with the taped blade. And broken scissors may be useful for picking the car’s lock (weren’t there also some sort of pins inside the suitcase?) and starting the engine without hot-wiring. A scissor with taped blades may help bridging the ignition wires without burning one’s fingertips.
Peteb: one certainty about the CM clutter in peak times like these, when it goes off the boil or runs off the current popular thread set, it’s done and dusted in no time flat, in other words resigned to archives where it’s soon forgotten.
Pb: I did, but then immediately wished that I hadn’t.
Haven’t read a lot of the thread (a lot has happened since I last read it), but has anyone pointed out only 1 of the listed ads has “Webb” (oops 2)…..but the ones after ’43 aren’t necessarily him (not sure how the electoral roll works elsewhere, but in Aus it’s up to you to change it – these days they’re pretty good at “you have a drivers license inconsistent with the electoral roll” – but I don’t think that was always the case)…..
Oh, and @PB I haven’t looked at Cramer’s blog, but I assume Webb is a common alias for Fedosimov (or vice versa). It was there in the fineprint all along….
re “mentioned before” – PB seemed to think Dude747 had been talking Webb before (or maybe I misunderstood something)
Wasn’t Minstrel Janet talking Carl Webb?
I’ve possibly found a 1920s marriage to Carl Webb in South Australia. I note that Carl was 35 and Dorothy was 21 from an earlier post. Given his age there might be a previous marriage when he was younger.
According to https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-30/somerton-man-researcher-rules-out-link-to-wife/101281666 :
Their marriage certificate shows that Carl Webb and Dorothy Jean Robertson were married on October 4, 1941 at St Matthews in Prahran.
At the time, Mr Webb was 35 years old and his wife 21.
According to the certificate, the couple lived on Domain Road in South Yarra.
NP: did you happen to pick up on who the winesses were and in particular the blushing brides parentage. That would presumably be on the Marriage cert. along with the happy couple’s pre marriage status ie., batchelor & spinster, as would be required to legalise a lawful union in Victoria?
John Sanders: I don’t have a copy of the marriage certificate, but I’m looking at this whole issue right now…
The Charles Webb living with Dorothy Jean on Bromby Street is down as an ‘instrument maker’ in the 1946 electoral roll. This seems to fit with the tools being offloaded in the May ’46 small ads. Jessie’s mum & dad (recorded as an electrician) are just down the road on Como Parade and her sister Jenny is even closer on Glen Iris Street at this time. At a stretch and bordering on pure conjecture: there was an automotive instrument makers (Johns & McHale) 4km down the road from Bromby St on Elizabeth St. What tools did you need to clock a motor in 1946?
Glen: 24th January 2014 one hit wonder poster named WEBB commented on the Thomas Torrance Keane thread if that’s the one you recalled.
Nice one Jamie! 🙂
Hi John – I’ve just located that thread and read it. 😱
No that isn’t the Webb I read about. I however have located a poster from many years ago and we are currently communicating via email. We will probably catch up in the near future as we live close by.
Jamie: you’re thinking in a sensible direction, but the question is how to find a way to decide which one of all the possible histories is the one that actually happened.
Nick: without being facetious, I guess we collate as much data as we can, apply them to a bunch of hypotheses and point to the most likely unbroken one. Johns & McHale specialised in odometer manufacture and ex-employees talk of how they learned how to disconnect them in rental cars to reduce their costs. There’s also a nice video on youtube showing how you clock a vintage mechanical odometer. All you need is a small screwdriver and a strong, thin, flat edge to prise apart the numbers on the barrel if you want to move them individually. Its all circumstantial, but if we keep looking…
Always wondered what happened to Norm and Jean (Jenny) Carr, someone over at TS/BS mentioned they were residents of Kangaroo Island post WW2. Norm had been a third mate aboard the Mundalla during the Borneo landings in May ’45. Handy man with a pabco brush and stencil cut-outs no doubt.
Jamie: my point was more that now we have a name, we need to find actual evidence rather than accumulate yet more hypotheses (I’ve had more than a gutsful of those).
Nick: I do understand. Especially given some of the hypotheses presented. I’m pretty sure all the 1946 electoral roll data is relevant given the timing, but appreciate that without evidence the Johns & McHale link is pure conjecture (thats why I heavily qualified it). The main reason for posting was that there was a lot of chat about possible links between Thomson and Webb, but it seemed to me that a Harkness link was just as possible given their occupations and proximity.
Jamie – I’ve lifted your comment on how odometer manipulation might be effected using the cut down knife knowing that the less miles a second-hand car has on its clock the more it would be worth.
Engineers hand tool ads for 31 May 1947 along with a before 11 time stipulation both point to Carl Webb….Saturday was race day at Moonee Valley as I recall and leaving home around 11am would get him out to the track and set for the first at 12.30pm thereabouts…With regard to the marriage in October ’41 when Carl was 35 and Dorothy 21, could well have been one of convenience to avoid compulsive military service and possibly for both unless I’m mistaken.
John S .. do you think the state of Webb’s feet, ie: wedge-shaped, might have had him unsuitable for war service?
Pb: dunno, probably not; by late 1941 with Rommel’s progress unchecked army recruiters weren’t likely to knock a cove back for having webbed feet. just so long as he had a decent set of chompers to pull grenade pins with…but our man Keane? Webb? Fedosimov? whomesoever, wasn’t likely to chance his luck, gambler that he was.
Could the mystery codes in the Rubiayat relate to car registration details?
’42 & ’43 ads have Webb. ’46 onwards don’t. Maybe ’46 is already D George….
I’ll cautiously note that the ’46 & ’47 ads specify “Flat 2” (much like George’s first ’48)
I’d imagine electoral rolls are slow to update (possibly slower than S&M) – how many people move house and immediately think “Better let the AEC know”.
In this Lancia Farina Drop Head Coupe Ad, the name is Derry George, thinking that’s probably the D.George in the other ads? Found a mention of a Derry George in this big 1958 ad.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205355515?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F809%2F1949%2F01%2F08%2Fpage%2F19599006%2Farticle%2F205355515
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/262424350
See above 15/5/43 an unidentified Webb of 2/63 Bromby St. Sth Yarra had an electric shavemaster and golf clubs for sale stipulating Saturday afternoon. We are not to know whether the seller was Carl or Dorothy, more likely Doff due to hubby’s passion for the gee gees and it being a race day at Moonee Valley and all. What might have been grounds for selling such items, had the owner given golfing away and started growing a beard, rendering the for sale goods of no further practical use, we’re not to know. In amongst items in the found suitcase was a razor of the cut-throat type, not so popular for shaving by 1948, but still much preferred by barbers and beard/moustachio wearers for neat shaping etc. In light of certain evidence having come to light, my belief how is that Carl Webb had until the morning of his ‘timely’ death been in the habit of wearing beard & moustaches hence no positive identification being made by those who knew him in life. During autopsy of the body Dr. Dwyer remarked that there were indications of recent shaving along with neat manicuring with attention to hands & feet. Punters will be aware of Dorothy’s profession by now and so implications are obvious ie, she was likely to have assisted in her husband’s demise….along with a little help from co-opted local relatives and facilitators no doubt. Whether the crime be one of murder most foul or an assisted suicide, punters can speculate, meanwhile until we can collectively put all the pieces together, I’ll keep my counsel. Unless of course certain key players in the DNA business decide to come clean about their own plottings & brewings which would be in their own interests and all for the better good.
John Sanders,
For once, I agree with your theory. Dorothy must have had something to hide.
@Thomas
“Prosper Thomson not only offered a bunch of second-hand cars in numerous newspaper ads, but also this item on 18 December 1948:
“CITY or suburbs. Tudor gold watch. Nearly new; good reward. Thomson 90A Moseley. Glenelg X3239” ”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43796213?searchTerm=%22×3239%22%20glenelg
Good spot but not offered for sale, that is a Lost (and Found) ad
Which makes me want to speculate outrageously. It’s really hard to lose a wristwatch and not know more specifically than that where you lost it (assuming this is the entry level Rolex brand, and therefore not a pocket watch). You lose them because you took them off for a swim, generally. So, how about Prosper knew SM had such a watch, knew it was not on the body when found, and thought it was worth the price of a small ad to go fishing for it, in the hope the thief would try to sell it to him for the reward?
It looks like he had been buying instead of selling, before the marriage. If this is him…
WANTED, 1938 Packard or Buick Sedan,
must be in good order. Ring C. Webb,
Cent. 4496.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11796169?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1943%2F08%2F27%2Fpage%2F624620%2Farticle%2F11796169
Sorry, that was 43, after marriage.The car was 1938 haha.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12000319
LOST, Thursday morning, vicinity of. Glenferrie
and Toorak ros., Classes In case.
Good reward. Ring Mr. Webb. Cent. 4496.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11997674
LOST Gabardine Raincoat left at seat
Intersection Toorak and Glenferrie rds
10 am Monday Good reward Ring Mr
Webb. Cent. 4496.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11349563
PIANO, for private home, must be in good
order; no agents. Ring Cent. 4496
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11816984
BUSINESS Man requires Board, south of
Yarra; garage if possible. Will pay £2/10/.
Ring Cent. 4496.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206780616
HAWTHORN or Armadale Dis.— Gent, re-
quires well furn. R.. In. priv. home,
meals by arrangement, use of kitchen when
required; will pay well. Ring Cent. 4496.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11358393
WANTED, superior Furn. Home, 5 or 6 rms.,
east sub., excell. refs. Cent. 4496 bet. 10
and 6._
Thomas: re the Tudor wristwatch, possibly a feeler ad as you say though, more likely in my experience, that Prosper placed the ad as a good alibi if grilled over his possession of it…”course it’s mine cuntstable, left it at the pool and lucky to get it back after puting an ad in the paper”.
@ Nick
Re the piano, he could be scouting for the person listed above Cent 4496 ie, Miss Nichols of 93 Millswyn Street, she lived around the corner and had asked for written responses.
Oh wow, @nickpelling & @pat, if that’s Carl that’s probably his work phone number, business hours 10 to 6. Brilliant find. Glenferrie and Toorak Roads tram intersection – his work must have been in that vicinity, a lot of clues there!
Here’s that phone number in 1950.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-299502213/view?sectionId=nla.obj-311786908&searchTerm=4496+phone&partId=nla.obj-299538489#page/n88/mode/1up/search/4496+phone
@ blackdown yes, was speculating the same. now how do we find out if c webb ever owned such watch…
@ Nick – has x4496 been checked against eg the Sands & McDougall directory?
Nick Pelling: things had been trending uncommonly fast in the first heady days of putting Webb/Robertson family players in context in so I overlooked an important lead regarding your contact with the Crick family historian Bruce Bennett. which I guess it has not dawned on anyone, your good self included, that your informant be none other than son to mysterious Doctor John Barkly Bennett first ‘offender’ when a police ambulance arrived at Adelaide Hospital about 9.45am on 1 /12/48. You’ll surely now recall Dr. John as being 2nd cousin to Dorothy Jean Robertson whose recently dear departed hubby Carl Webb was on a stretcher in back waiting attention. Now’s just about time we took the said coincidental family affair for what it most certainly was not, mere coincidence and one too many by my reckoning.
One more thing if may re Central 4496. The phone number seems to be linked to The Beehive building, 92-94 Elizabeth Street. Here’s a list of who was occupying the floors in the 1944-1945 Sands and McDougall Directory, p.189.
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE13973686&file=FL21609494&mode=browse
Nick,
Very interesting that C. Webb may have been passing through Kooyong, specifically the intersection of Glenferrie/Toorak Rds, during 1942–44.
Very close nearby was a possible site of employment for civilian instructors, at the 4th (later 3rd?) Senior Administration School, Australian Women’s Army Service (AWAS, as opposed to the UK WRACs and the US WACs), in a converted mansion memorably named “Grong Grong”. (Demolished in 1960, though a couple of pics and other details can be found here – scroll down, internal links seem to be broken – https://federationhome.com/2018/06/11/architect-walter-butler-2/ )
Amongst other duties, AWAS personnel undertook repairs to electrical equipment and instruments, often working alongside male soldiers in army workshops. (See, e.g. this article from October 1942 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47341155 )
Still sniffing around to see what else was in that area in 1942–45…
Mary: don’t get too excited; my jaundiced eye I’m seeing race 5 ‘orse 6 bet 10/6 (half a guinea). Other wanted ads sus. in some respects but not so obvious
as to raise flags by police (Dealer Sqd) rag scanners.
Mary: I’m almost certainly going to have to do a “Carl Webb small ads Part 2” post to unpick all the stuff on offer here…
John Sanders: I can certainly ask Bruce if that’s the case, it’s a good question…
Nick Pelling: Dr. Bennett’s son Bruce is early seventies bn. 1950. There can’t be any doubts on his relationship bearing in mind the precedents I’ve been trying to bring attention to regarding uncanny relationship of three key families Robertson, Webb and Bennett. I’d be confident that if such were presented to a Coroner as linked circumstancial evidence, supported with certain elements of 1949 testimony, a determination of cause and culpability could be a the only outcome. Give it some thought Nick and perhaps seek guidance on how to get the 1958 sin die inquest resumed. That would earn a nice colonial oath and a hearty ‘good onyer’ for Cipher Mysteries’ having overcoming the odds to win first prize in the histerical (at times) Somerton Man case.
@ Furphy
The AWAS were also on Fawkner Park, near Bromby Street and on the same former number 8 tramline – Domain Road- Park Street – Toorak Road to Glenferrie Road. 33 AWAS Women’s Army Signal Training Camp.
https://www.ozatwar.com/locations/fawknerparkawas.htm
The Beehive Building is still around – I think Family Planning Victoria might have recently been in the army spot!
Jo,
That is relevant, 33 AWAS Women’s Army Signal Training Camp, at Fawkner Park, especially since it was “near Bromby Street and on the same former number 8 tramline – Domain Road- Park Street – Toorak Road to Glenferrie Road.”
In a cursory look at the NAA index, I did see some records relating to AWAS schools/training, which may tell us something. (There may be relevant stuff in the AWM archives in Canberra too, although I’m not sure if AWM would hold records relating directly to civilian staff … my gut instinct says “not usually”.)
…of course the Keane’s were there too, Gerry being instrumental in creating the suitcase diversion and rough overkill stitching of Carl’s jacket and duds, in keeping his trade & calling. Little doubt in my mind that he was in Adelaide working with Ms. Priest for her ‘Listeners Ballet’ opening night and stayed on after Carl’s sad ending to cover loose ends. Both Dorothy and her facilitator Dr. Bennett were likely long gone by the time he left the murder capital on his way with the company to Melbourne and safety of home.
Nick
Don’t get yourself in a lather about the C Webb you are chasing.
Charles Webb was well known as a piano player around Melb’n.
See for example: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11365906?searchTerm=piano%20charles%20webb
The phone no Cent 4496 belonged to the Shefte College of Music: “Modern Piano Playing” – see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245937716?searchTerm=shefte%20college%20cent%204496
The man was still alive in 1949: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189455417?searchTerm=piano%20charles%20webb
So unless he was like Mary the organist in the wonderful 1962 film ‘Carnival of Souls’ who returns to life after dying when the car she was in falls off a bridge into a river until she is hunted down by her fellow dead souls (free to watch on YouTube) the C Webb you are looking at ain’t Carl.
Ann O: I indeed suspected that this might have been pianist Charles Webb, but I wanted to check a bit more carefully this evening before making a solid judgment either way. Regardless, it was worth following the Cent. 4496 trail from Pat’s original small ad, you never know where these things will lead to. 🙂
Might not be helpful or relevant, but here’s another Cent. 4496 phone listing for 94 Elizabeth St in 1954:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/210669706?searchTerm=cent4496#
Good on ya @Ann O – so it’s turned out to be an absent-minded pianist losing all their stuff on the commute to work, haha, and selling his worn out piano! Ah well, I enjoyed the ride – found myself in the ANA reading correspondence between Emm Yannoulatos and Prime Minister Ben Chifley and learnt some things about the Beehive in the ’40’s as we rattled along on the No.58 to its logical conclusion. Hey, I bet there’s an ad somewhere for him losing his umbrella too …
@Mary
Well, a Charles Webb did leave £50 in a phone box on his way home:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244975567?searchTerm=charles%20webb%20%C2%A3
£50 was a lot of money in those days!
Ann O: Fifty quid converted to Vn. Dong would keep this old battler in beer and Bastos for a month at least. So yeah, a lot of bickies in those days as you say; hope some kind codger handed it back, but a big ask if the filth got hold of it first.
Ah, found Derry George, it’s this fella.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23050106?searchTerm=Derham%20George
Just adding Derry George’s NAA file – some correspondence to him in November 1948 shows his address as 2/63 Bromby Street.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4396257
@ Mary
Gosh! I bet old Derry was spitting that he was cut out of the car dealing partnership with the Stillwells, as per your Trove article. They went on to become a very wealthy car dealing family, with racing car driver Bib Stillwell also moving on to selling Lear Jets!
http://www.bibstillwell.com.au/bibstillwell/
@ Mary
I think you might have found something interesting here! The flat was advertised before the Webbs lived there but I couldn’t find an ad for 1948, so Derry George may have got it via word of mouth or quickly, before any need to advertise.
Derry George was ten years younger than Carl Webb, however from the service record it appears that he did exactly the same course at Swinburne: “Swinburne Tech College 3 years. Electrical training night school”. He then becomes a motor mechanic for 3 years and then returns to Swinburne as a cadet, to the Electrical Lab, for 18 months. He enlisted with the RAAF on 4 December 1939 (Air craft hand, technical). He does an electrical fitters course with the RAAF in 1940 and is discharged in November 1948, so after he moves to Bromby Street (by July 1948).
I wonder whether Carl Webb did do war time training and then work that is not part of the regular archive – eg signals intelligence.
@Mary noticed his occupation and education
Yeah Jo and EM, the occupation and Swinburne training is pretty interesting.
H’mm, was he a friend of Carl’s, did they work together, play sport together …. or was Rita (nee Dixon) George a friend of Dorothy’s? Did Rita work, was she a chiropodist …. haha, wait, I do get a tad carried away with finding connections. Aren’t those files in NAA fabulously interesting, with the photos and storyline to follow. The Swinburne doc was really good to see, I imagine Carl had a similar one to apply for jobs. Derry was running an Ampol station in ’57/58 at least, but yeah, Stillwell pretty big business still going now, run by his children.
So, did they know each other, or as Nick says above: ” Or is all that just a normal Somerton Man coincidence?”
The main point of interest for mine re Derry George is his connection to the car trade .
Sounds like he was into motor racing and was a bit of a mentor to Bib Stillwell.
Question is did he take over the Bromby st flat entirely? or did he share it with Chuck ? OR did he move in with Doff ?
Here a photo of Derry George fueling a car ( 5th down): http://www.speedwayandroadracehistory.com/christmas-hills-rob-roy-hillclimb.html
@ The Dude
I did notice that the 1941 ad mentioned 6 rooms, whereas the flats are two rooms a kitchen and bathroom. There are also two garages with a generous forecourt that are accessed separately, via a back lane – so good for car trading. So who knows?! Derry started posting ads in July 1948 and Charlie is reported as having moved on in April that year.
Derry seems very connected to the car trade, but that’s like just my opinion man!
Thomas: that’s a great photo of Derry from 1949, totally love it! He seems like a top bloke, hey – was looking for Carl in the background, lol.
thedude747: Looks like Derry was married 8 Sept 1942, so probably wasn’t living with Carl or Dorothy – speculation of course. I’d never heard of the Rob Roy Hillclimb before – those cars, wowee, gonna look into that a bit more.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206831833?searchTerm=Derry%20George
There’s no doubt about that Jo. He was part owner of a servo which would have also done auto repairs as well his involvement in car racing and clearly traded in cars from Bromby st regularly.
Maybe Derry George’s nephew Ian George who collects racing cars can provide information on his uncle, his email address (in 2020) is given on this website where he was looking for his TC9733: https://ttypes.org/lost-and-found-issue-60/.
JS,
Dr John Barkly Bennett was only 24, having only just been registered as a Doctor on 1/9/1947. I couldn’t find any evidence that he was familiar with Dorothy and Carl. It would appear that he wouldn’t of recognised Carl as his 2nd cousins husband. i doubt whether he had ever met Dorothy either.
https://www.geni.com/people/Dr-John-Bennett/6000000066986262101
He would seem a bit of young to be able to pull off some sort of conspiracy to murder Carl and be back on duty in the Emergency Department to receive his body, then certify death as occurring at 2am.
Unless I’ve missed finding something to which your privy to.
Do you have any “smoking gun” stuff?
Regards
Peter
Peter Davidson
John Sanders seems to have gone silent at the moment but as someone who has engaged with the Colonel on this matter I can make a few remarks.
John does let himself get carried away with his own findings – see for example his contribution to the Beaumont Children affair on this site.
He is right however to say that Dr Bennett’s father and Doff’s father met at Gallipoli. From Wikitree:
“He [Jack, Doff’s father] served at Gallipoli in WWI. In Shrapnel Gully in 1915 Jack was going down to get a bite when he saw a man walking towards him along the protective beach trench, who had a Red Cross on his arm. Jack said ‘I know you?’ and he replied ‘I have been looking for you.’ It was his cousin Norman Robertson Bennett [John Barkly Bennett’s father]. ”
Bruce Bennett, John Barkly’s son, is profile manager for both of the above gents’ profiles.
So it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Dr Bennett did know Doff.
In my own research I came up with an even more outrageous coincidence. John Barkly Bennett married Nan Sparrow, who was a nurse at the Royal Adelaide Hospital. Unbelievably she lived with her family before her marriage in Feb 1950 at 105 Moseley Street. Glenelg, which is DEAD OPPOSITE 90a Moseley Street where of course Prosper and Jo Thomson lived in the late ’40s. I don’t really make too much of it, but 1) Jo trained as a nurse, 2) Nan was a nurse (and a childhood friend of future SA premier Don Dunstan who briefly lived just up the road with his uncle Howard and aunt Ada while at school with Nan’s brother in the early ’40s) and 3) Doff was a chiropodist/pharmacist, who was second cousin to Dr Bennett, and who seems to have moved to SA after her marriage broke up. Also 4) John Freeman who supposedly found the Rubaiyat in his car in Jetty Road, Glenelg (although Derek Abbott still thinks it might have been Dr Douglas Buxton Hendrickson) was a chemist. Go figure!
See below for a pic of John and Nan at a do at the Dunstan’s Glenelg home:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50200605?searchTerm=nadine%20sparrow
Any chance this is Carl … interesting that it’s September 1947.
Had a look around and I think there was a bungalow at the address.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206047678?searchTerm=Webb%20tool%20maker
Thomas, that’s an excellent idea, look forward to hearing back about that …. did he or didn’t he know Carl? I reckon his nephew would probably be pretty interested to see if there was any connection with the infamous Somerton Man. Do you wanna do it Thomas, email ….. a learned leader, per chance, with class and tact and the ability not to alienate – rules me out, lol.
Mary: there’s another small ad from the same Webb / address from 23 Feb 1946
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206797783
UTILITY wanted, ’20 to ’33; cheap.
Webb, 85 Windsor-cr., Mont Albert.—
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206866904 – 03 Mar 1945
BIKE, gent.’s, good order. 85 Windsor-
cr., Surrey Hills.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206108123 – 18 May 1946
LINEN Table Cloth, 50 x 50, hand work-
ed; 6 Serviettes; best offer. 85 Wind-
sor-cr., Mont Albert.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205356512/19600150 – 26 Mar 1949 (too late, I know, but it is what it is)
D K.W., 500 c.c., Twin, self-starting
model, in excellent condition, 10
months’ comp. ins. and reg; Saturday
morning or Sunday night. 85 Windsor-
cr.. Mont Albert.
You magnificent researcher, good on ya Nick, absolutely fabulous …. h’mm, I really thought it could be him and was starting to look into what the heck a 1st steam ticketer was, lol. Will keep looking ……… cheers 🙂
Mary: I’m not sure either way yet, there are a load more car ads from the address from 1950 onwards, so that could easily be someone else at that address. (“Webb” only appears in two ads)
Also: there are a few ads from 1943-1944 that look like house clearance (table & chairs, china, etc), so perhaps that was after the previous owner had died / left.
@ Nick and Mary
The string of car ads appearing from an address linked to Webb has a ring of Bromby Street to it!
I went to Bromby Street earlier today. What is interesting is the back of the property. There are two small garages with a forecourt. What is even more interesting is that the laneway by which these are accessed links to another laneway, running from Arnold Street and an art deco Motor Works workshop, 39-41, Arnold Street, South Yarra, now occupied by Melbourne Grammar School (Gear Box Arts) – ie the back of Charlie’s Bromby Street apartment practically links via a quiet laneway to the back of a car workshop in a fairly quiet street. I can’t find any info for the Motor Works (ads etc).
@ Mary – I think steam ticket relates to mechanical engineering- people used to hold steam and or motor tickets. My dad was in the merchant navy as a mechanical engineer in the 1950s & 60s (via apprenticeship with the British Atomic Energy Authority, he didn’t go to uni) I think he had both tickets & worked fixing & maintaining engines, in factories then ships, then back to factories…
I noticed something interesting on the 1949 electoral roll for Dorothy Jean. Her name (as well as some others) is crossed out due to change of address. So, for example, in the listing directly below hers is Dorothy Joyce Webb. Her listing is crossed out and then to the right, in hand-writing you can read “Mentone 23 8 49”. I looked up Dorothy Joyce Webb and there is a second listing for her the same year and she had moved to Mentone – I am assuming she moved on August 23 of 1949.
To the right of Dorothy Jean’s listing it reads “0 or O and the date is 23 3 50″…So she probably left that address on March 23, 1950 and maybe the “0” is an indication that she did not provide a new address or that they do not have a new one for her.
Thanks a lot Jo, so that rules out Carl, goodo. It’s interesting though, he would have finished his schooling in the early 20’s, and I can’t imagine he acquired all those skills to go and work in the bakery fulltime till he was was nearing 40, hey, and then suddenly become an electrical engineer/instrument maker when he moved to Bromley Street. He had to have been doing more than delivering loaves of bread all over the place, hey ….. I could be wrong though, frequently am 🙂
That’s interesting Misca.
People were living their lives out in the daily newspapers back in the day, there must be more clues among it all, will keep looking.
Jo – I went snooping with google maps today and was super-surprised that you could actually go down the laneway and look at the back of the property!..Don’t know when the photos were taken but there are two garages with green doors. Is that what you saw? At the very back there is a reddish fence with a door that seemingly opens onto another laneway. Don’t know why but google maps wouldn’t let me wander into the laneway from Arnold Street…Looking forward to your pics!
@ Misca
Yes, you’ve found the garages! I went and took photos today and will send to Nick. I will contact the archivist at Melbourne Grammar to ask when they acquired the Motor Works building and if possible from who – I can’t find any information on Sands and Mac other than “39-41 (Arnold Street) Workshops”.
I’ve also found lots of Trove entries for Derry George as D George or DD George in relation to the Light Car Club races in the 1930s and 40s (Hill climbs etc). Kelly and Lewis (engineers, near the Springvale Bakery) were involved in car modifications and engine building and supported another member – H McLaren of Brighton (who invented a new valve). According to a Melb contact who used to teach the History of Espionage (!) The Light Car Club was also linked to elite military and espionage circles – Bertam Whiting, Mountbatten’s ADC was apparently a member… It was located on Queens Road, near the Monterrey Appartments (Melbourne’s version of Bletchley Park). I used to go there in the 1990s when it housed a fantastic nightclub – the Razor Club!
@ Mary – According to Nick, Charlie is listed as an Electrical Fitter on the 1937 electoral roll. My working theory is that he may have done an apprenticeship and worked at Kelly and Lewis, Engineers and Pump Makers, 10 mins walk away from the bakery. Its possible that he didn’t work full time at the bakery. I don’t think your find is out… There was also another man who did bakery deliveries (Wally Norris?) and Roy was probably also on the scene… The steam ticket probably is one that you’d advertise as it enabled you to work with boilers…
@ Mary – Kelly and Lewis – engineering factory near the bakery, made steam driven generators, pumps and fans, including for the navy (from one of their 1941 ads) … If only there was a match to link all of these things!
@ Mary – your Mont Albert find seems more & more like Charlie to me. Bayesian logic at work here! It’s the car links that work for me – Bayesian logic at work! It would be interesting to see who else is linked to this address…
I’m sure I found a house clearance & will relating to another of the flats at Bromby St, just prior to the Webb’s or early in their tenancy… could be an opportunity to take over lease of the adjoining yard? Similar to Mont Albert… I didn’t save it at the time so will do another dig in Trove ‘ron, to see if I can find it again…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22794962?searchTerm=63%20bromby%20street%20south%20yarra
Here is the notice on Trove regarding the death and will of the daughtsman who had lived at 63 Bromby Street (probably downstairs to the Webbs). I found an ad around the time of his death for the sale of some furniture and household goods but can’t seem to relocate it…
I’m not sure if this has been posted – 14 December. 1940:
“LOST, Spare Wheel, vicinity Chapel-st. Ford
274 Domain-rd., S. Yarra. Win. 8869. Rewd.”
[Corrected by NickP]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205221970?searchTerm=%22274%20Domain%20Rd%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206773848?searchTerm=“8869” – 25 May 1940
COOK, hotel or guest house, vicinity S. Yarra.
Win., 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204405117?searchTerm=“8869” – 06 Jul 1940
HOUSE Maid Waitress, nice refined girl. 274
Domain-rd., S. Yarra. Win. 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204392560?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 12 Sep 1940
HOUSE Maid, Waitress, urgently, nice refined
girl. 274 Domain-rd., S. Yarra. Win 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244457981?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 10 Oct 1940
SOUTH YARRA, 274 Domain Rd.— Lge. single
and dble, balc, rms., mod. tariff. Win. 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244576534?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 05 Dec 1940
“GOWAN BRAE,” 274 Domain Road, South
Yarra. Single and double vacancy, every
conv. and excellent cuisine. Phone Win. 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244982213?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 10 Mar 1941
“GOWAN BRAE,” 274 Domain Rd.— Double &
Single vacancies. Phone Win. 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244995176?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 03 Jun 1941
SOUTH Yarra, 274 Domain Rd. Dble. & Sgle
Vacs., all convs., cl. to city. Win. 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205169750?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 19 Jul 1941
HOUSE Maid-Waitress. 274 Domain-rd., S.
Yarra. Win., 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8232961?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 14 Feb 1942
D. and S. Vacancies, 274 Domain Road,
South Yarra, Win. 8869.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8237690?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 17 Mar 1942
SOUTH YARRA. – Beaut. D.R. with balc.
274 Domain rd. Win. 8869
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11990930?searchTerm=%228869%22 – 17 Aug 1942
ANYONE misdirected by Win 8869 please
phone Win. 7455 between 4 and 5.
I saw most of those. There were a lot of people living there and they seemed to possibly share a central line. The reason I posted this particular one is that there is a reference to a vehicle.
The 17 August 1942 one, made me chuckle!
I thought Nick was suggesting that Charlie had run away with a nice refined house maid! Or that he’d fallen for a honey pot scheme!
@Jo, thanks for that info. Have you seen that Kelly and Lewis had a pretty active social club and their own footy team back in the day? If Carl worked for them he’d probably be in a group photo. They played trade games back in the day, will see what I can find. Also, they seemed to publish when staff were leaving, or a piece of steel fell on someone’s foot, etc, yeah, lots of articles to look through!!
Peteb: your latest tantalising morsel on Carl Webb’s mushy brain matter, according to Gordon Cramer’s former man friday Clyde, based on in depth interviews with eye witness Paul Lawson, were present and accounted for one minute, then gone to Gowings the next leaving nought but an empty prestine scull cavity. So what are we mere mortals to believe squire the memory of a centenarian or the word of a disgruntled former Cramer collaborator…Don’t know much of younger brudder Anthony’s mean side but, I couldn’t imagine someone of your even temperiment having objectionable habits akin to those attributed by Ms. DNA Fitzgerald to the aforesaid Carl-Charles-Charlie-Chas-Chuckles or C. Webb for short.
Is it possible that Carl Webb deliberately chose to travel to the Somerton Children’s Home to give away the last of his money before his death? No money was found on his body.
Perhaps he had been made aware of the children’s home by residents in 274 Domain Road. The home was trying to raise funds to build an extension in 1948.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1STmUvZ6neM0e-PaA7l_bw05Q5IMNDG-t/view?usp=sharing
I have just spotted another of many coincidences in this case…
Jo has posted a Trove link to Mr. Davies’ probate notice, late of 63 Bromby St., dated 29 Nov 1949, and just below it is the grant of probate notice for Albert Quin, late of 30 Murphy street, Elsternwick, Engineer. Same street where Dorothy was living…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22794962?searchTerm=63%20bromby%20street%20south%20yarra
@Pat,
Like I said alter-ego – Ginger Quin – Albert Quin..Pyjama Girl?