In a previous post, I wondered whether the young blonde guy that the family identified (as part of a recent ABC documentary) was indeed Carl Webb, or whether he might instead have been Carl Webb’s nephew Charles Richard Webb. It all comes down to a cluster of family photos that appears to have been taken on the same day – but what day was that?
“Webbs”
The first photo gives us four names to work with:
Here, Grandpa and Grandma are without any doubt Richard August Webb (b. 1866 Hamburg, d. 2 April 1939) and his wife Eliza Amelia Webb (nee Grace) (1870-1946), while Roy is their son Roy Webb (b. 1904). (Which Charlie the young guy tagged as “Charlie” is is the question here.) We can therefore at least be sure that this photo was taken before 2 April 1939.
Putting Carl and Roy to one side, the list of people we might therefore reasonably expect to find in a Webb family photo in the period (say) 1925 to 1939 would include:
- Russell Richard Webb (registered 1893, d. 1949)
- Partner: Linda Webb (b. 1888, d. 1966)
- Son: Douglas Russell McCluskey (b. 1911, d. 1991)
- Married Amy Sarah Harriet Tomkinson in 1917 (b. 1895, d. 2 Jun 1929 “after a long illness”)
- Son Charles Richard Webb (b. 1918)
- Daughter Doris Amy Webb (b. 1919) who married Norman John Tomkinson (1917-2002) in 1941
- Son Norman Fred[e]rick Webb (b. 1921, d. 2008)
- Daughter Ethel Elizabeth Webb (b. 1926, d. 2008) – Married Holland
- Partner: Linda Webb (b. 1888, d. 1966)
- Freda Grace Webb (born 1896, died 1964).
- Married Gerald Thomas Keane (b. 1889, d. 1960) in 1915.
- Leo Vivian Keane (b. 1915, d. 2005)
- Son John Russell (‘Jack’) Keane (b. 1917, d. 1943)
- Daughter Gwen[doline] M. Keane (b. ~1919, d. ~1994) (married Dickinson)
- Married Gerald Thomas Keane (b. 1889, d. 1960) in 1915.
- Gladys May Webb (registered 1897), died 1955.
- Married Leslie William Scott (b. 1895, d. 1961) in 1933 or earlier.
- Doris Maude (‘Dot’) Webb, born 22 May 1901, died 1956.
- Married Daniel William Martin (b. 1894, d. 1956)
- Daughter: Norma Mary Martin (later Cass), b. 1925
- Married Daniel William Martin (b. 1894, d. 1956)
External Photos
As a starting point, I wondered whether WWII enlistment photographs for some of the men might be a possible help. For example, here’s Jack Keane:
Norman Fredrick Webb’s service record (157584) has not yet been digitised, alas (so no photo here).
Norman John Tomkinson’s 3-page service record (V55745) is online here (but no photo) – he was a “Cannister Maker”, and was still “single” (aged 22) in 1940, with his father as next of kin. I think there’s a later and larger (but as yet undigitised) file here.
Douglas Russell McCluskey’s service record (V500465) is online here – he was a “munitions worker”, with his mother Linda as next of kin.
Here’s Daniel William Martin and Doris Maude (Webb) with (presumably) their young daughter Norma Mary, as per a photo uploaded to the Cass Martin family tree area of MyHeritage, which (given that Norma Mary was born in 1925), would seem to date to around 1927 or 1928:
The Cass family tree also has a nice clear (but undated) photo of Doris Maude on her own:
Similarly, here’s Norma Mary Martin (aged about 17) and her mother Doris Martin (on the right) in 1942:
There are almost certainly other photos to be had out there, but these were all I was able to find.
The Big Photo
So, we have nineteen people in the big photo, fifteen of whom we are unsure of.
Given that we have some nice clear photos of Doris Maude Martin and her husband and daughter, can we identify them as a family group here? The obvious three candidates are just to the left (as we look at it) of “Charlie” at the back:
The man at the back here looks a lot to me like (a slightly older) Daniel William Martin, with his wife Doris Maude Martin right in front of her. The little girl sitting beside Doris would then very probably be Norma Mary Martin. If this is correct, I think we might then reasonably guess Norma Mary’s age as about five, which would date this photo to around 1930. However, I’d caution that this is still not 100% certain. 🙁
So, Which Charlie is Charlie?
If the photo is from around 1930, then “Charlie” simply couldn’t be Carl Webb’s nephew Charles Richard Webb (b. 1918) – he might conceivably pass for a large sixteen-year-old, but probably not a large twelve-year-old. So I think it does seem fairly likely that the Webb family has identified a picture of Carl Webb, as they thought.
…Unless you know better?
Update (29/12/2022)
Commenter Bob Nowak points out that he suggested (in a 27/12/2022 comment here) that these three were indeed the Martins (which I somehow managed to miss):
I think (as Poppins stated earlier) the tot in the front row with her hands on her head is the daughter of Daniel and Doris Martin, Norma Mary, born 1925, sitting next to her mum Doris Maude (with her husband Daniel behind)
He referred to Poppins’ previous comment (18/12/2022):
Wasn’t it confirmed by the family that Norma was in the family photo …. I thought that was posted here a while back. Born November 1925, she looks about 3 in the photo, taken in the Summer of ’28/’29 one would think. Maybe the question is not how high are Roy and Charlie, but how high is the little tot Norma, to date the photograph.
Nick
Nice to know you are listening for once.
Leo Keane’s WW2 record can also be seen at NAA – No A9301:440741, p 7 of 46 for photos. As Stuart Webb says that his great grandma, Amy Webb, is in the photo, that would date it at 1929 at the latest.
P.S. Charlie, as a male, is blond not blonde!
Nick: and narry a word from you in attempting to explain away the out of place presence of the bloke in the pic with the missing forearm who appears to be in his forties and is without much doubt Leslie Scott. Now I can appreciate a tendency to skip much of what may seem to be general online banter if your censor agrees but, for heavens sakes man don’t overlook the on effect consequences of omission or you’ll set yourself up for another kick in le cul (pardon the French) as in the most unfortunate Bruce Bennett D’Arcy fiasco.
Thanks Nick for hopefully putting and end to this distraction.
The reason Charlie looks so blond is largely due to the fact that the photo is taken in the sun and the blond effect is largely due to the way the sun has reflected of Charlies head and the photo being over exposed. Full stop.
This whole discussion has turned very, very awkward. Is it really necessary to dissect this whole family? Charlie looks like SM/Carl Webb. Thats one. David Morgan confirmed this with his software comparisons. Thats two. Charlie is not Charlie Richard just because he does not look like it. Thats three. CR’s family and a whole team of genealogists that have access to many more pictures also have NOT identified him. Thats four. Also, CR has very thick, black, straight eyebrows and has his ears positioned below his eyebrows, anyone can see that. Thats five and thats six.
Sondra, we can dissect the family all we like. They don’t have protected status and they’re all dead. I’m particularly worried about the harpy with the funny hair – she looks like the sort of person who might be a member of the communists. Not nice at all. Norma Mary Martin.
Jack Keane on the other hand is a raffish, gorgeous stud muffin of a man. That slight leer of his makes me wet. Such a tragedy he died early over Ireland and had his clothes all given to the syphilitic spy.
Interestingly the Hebrew family Cass is mentioned. Jestyn’s lover was a certain Doctor Cass from Unley. Moss Cass from the same family would go on to be a corrupt Minister of the Crown under Whitlam.
John Sanders: I’m not at the point of proof yet (disproof is easy, but proof is saintly), and I’m trying hard to rely only on verifiable solid stuff, of which there’s precious little in this brief life we each cling to.
Leslie Scott is next, along with Amy Webb (d.1929) etc.
Bob Nowak: blond/blonde, that old chestnut! No wait…
Sandra: to be fair, I’m trying to date the photo, not dissect the family – it’s just that genuine proof of anything like this is extremely hard to attain without really getting every tiny detail right.
Bob Nowak: good job he wasn’t a brunet, or you’d annoyed by that instead. 😋
thedude747: I don’t think I’ve proved it yet, but the (possibly) three Martins present a good visual argument which I hadn’t seen put forward anywhere.
@sandra, i for one am glad the family got dissecting , it offers clarity to those who can’t and won’t see. @bobnovak, i am glad you are well versed in you nouns and pronouns
just for a rule of thumb (copy and pasted) “Blond” is a noun meaning a fair-haired male.
The blond has a unique dancing style. (for a boy)
“Blond” is also an adjective used to describe anybody (regardless of their gender) with fair hair.
The blond girl and the blond boy make a nice blond couple.
(When it’s an adjective, “blond” can be used for all genders.)
“Blonde” is a noun meaning a fair-haired female.
The blonde has a unique dancing style. correct tick (for a girl)
“Blonde” is also an adjective used to describe a female (or females) with fair hair.
The blonde girl and the blond boy make a nice blond couple.
(As an adjective, “blonde” or “blond” can be used to describe females.)
but who gives a f!
em: blond/blonde depends on (a) where in the world you’re writing, and (b) how much of an f you give. 😋
Auyverdica
Sorry, you are neither funny nor clever; perhaps you are sad, mad or depressed or perhaps you get kicks from being vile? Sad, sad, sad. Norma Mary Martin is the small child in the Martin photos. Moss Cass’ daughter was a friend of mine, a talented person who sadly died too young. Most of these people have living descendants. Maybe think before you spray? Fresh air, sunlight, impulse control… I recommend them. Please don’t reply, you’ve done enough damage for one day.
@ Robert Nowak(count)
If you think for a NY minute that I wouldn’t have been hard at it sussing out the infuriating Webb/Keane kith & Kin in NAA records for both world wars, then you underestimate by resolve. This particular initiaive occurred long before you got wind of it, indeed prior to my exposure of your on line shenanigans in another guise and inviting you to post under your real name which I had reason to recall. For examle take Jack Keane, Leo’s (Viv) brother who killed himself and his crew in an act of bravado in ’43, that brought to mind Prosper (George) Thomson’s own brother Rollo who pulled a similar stunt also in ’43 and so to in an adventurous training maneuvre, fortunately killing only himself. I’d checked out Dot Webb’s old man Danny Martin too, even before I picked up the bigger break with Les Scott’s missing arm and why not, after all Daniel wasn’t wearing shorts in the photo so his battle scars were not visible…..If I don’t report results on this forum the reason is elementary, it’s because there be no point in cluttering up the CM site with any more useless trivia than is asolutely necessary. Got it?
em: blond beer has no ‘e’, wouldn’t touch the stuff if it did…just broke my own rule on clutter but couldn’t resist the temptation. Sorry!
Nick: I do think you’re right about the identification of Doris and Dan Martin.
Also, based on facial features, I think the lad lying at the front may bear a passing resemblance to the AIF pic of C. R. Webb? Although, of course, that makes it as likely that its the as-yet-unseen Norman Webb (or another of Carl’s nephews).
Comparing the broadest possible age ranges for the known, uncontroversial subjects in a photo is a fairly effective way of dating it (bearing in mind that people did age more rapidly, the further back one goes). e.g.:
Richard A. Webb: about 60–75 i.e. a date between 1926 and 1941.
Eliza: 55–75 i.e. 1925–1945
Roy: 20–35 i.e. 1924–1939
Doris: 25–40 i.e. 1926–1941
Daniel Martin: 30–45, i.e. 1924–1939.
Those four alone would suggest that the pic was taken within the uncontroversial range of 1926–1939.
The “blond” feller at the back would appear to be aged about 22–35. If it is Carl, that would also date the pic around 1926–1939.
More speculatively … the lad lying down at the front appears to be about 11–18? If it’s C.R. Webb, that would put the date between 1929 and 1936. If it’s Norman, between 1932 and 1939. But as I say, it could be another nephew or someone else entirely.
Bob Nowak: If Amy Webb (née Tomkinson) really is present (as Stuart believes) that does mean a date before June 1929. However … as I have discovered with such statements from my own family … there’s always room for doubt, especially without a positive identification of Amy in the actual pic.
Sandra: you are oh so easy to please where facebook ISM data is concerned. Easy to fool too if you accept without reservation the specified six points you allude to.
Nick Pelling: No! No! for crying out loud! You’ve misidentified Dot and Dan Martin simply due to their positioning close to the child who you believe is their daughter Norma. I’m saying your suffering from an accute case of confirmation bias and I’ll tell you why; It’s because the Martins are most definately the couple way down the other end of the picture, Dot sitting between her mum and mum-in-law Mrs. Lottie Martin and Daniel behind them on the end. As for the child you’d better wait until we can sort her out, one thing is clear though, had she been little Norma she’d more than likely with her parents….See you in the court of public opinion Nick P. where you’re certain to hold a distinct edge over the nasty colonel ( now private).
Nick Pelling: tell you what sport, I’m prepared to knock two years off the family photo dating to, let’s say around 14th March 1936 it being a Saturday half day off for butchers, bakers and candle stick makers and kids. Reasons for making such a magnanamous concession being based on factors including the warm prevailing conditions noted, typical of late summer in southern Australia from memory. I’ve also decided to reduce Roy Webb’s age (appearance) to 30 which I can bare, and likewise Lottie Martin’s to 75 which she could pass for at a pinch. The other reason of course would have to be Grandad’s 70th birthday, the old fellow looking every minute of it, which was two days earlier, a Thursday and for whom the big family outing was presumably in honour.
Furphy: forget about the Martins they’ll keep. Looks like you’re prepared to give some leeway on the photo date and the way you’ve done it with a simple chart is top class. Gives everyone a more variable choice re their options. Well done.
@JS,
My leg on the six-legged stool is very solid. Facial ID matches multiple images of Carl and Charles Webb but none match CR.
But as you say you don’t have a computer and therefore you can never check.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yeec9-idmYE1mO6QJOLwXREn-EdSCQa3/view?usp=sharing
I asked the expert who ID’d the GRU agents in the Skripal case to confirm ginger Carl = blond Charles with his own facial ID software and he says it has never made a mistake. Also, I think that there are a few super recognizers around who would say the same.
Believe me, I was heavily invested in Carl not being Charles but you have to follow the science.
@Jan – Maybe DA cunningly switching left from right in his latest facebook picture post has been a bit too confusing to you. Take that as seven.
Aw c’mon!
Credit where credit’s due, as someone once said. On the ‘My name is Charles’ thread on December 26, 2022 at 10:16 pm I posted:
“I think (as Poppins stated earlier) the tot in the front row with her hands on her head is the daughter of Daniel and Doris Martin, Norma Mary, born 1925, sitting next to her mum Doris Maude (with her husband Daniel behind)…”
I also provided a link to the above photo of the Martins on Geni, albeit a fair bit fuzzier than Nick’s version (I don’t have his billions to spend on all these ancestry sites).
Now all I get is a heap of abuse about my pedantry over the use of the words blond and blonde.
@Nick
What is the difference between a nymphet and a nymphette?
@Jo
I totally agree about the jerk who keeps posting anti-Semitic comments. Not only unfunny, but also hate speech, and Nick’s legal position in publishing this garbage is extremely dubious. Or perhaps he is a Corbynite – do you follow British politics? – and approves of this sad sack’s feculent drivel.
@John Sanders
You appear to have been completely discombobulated by my brilliant polemical poem yesterday which surely belongs in Nick’s favoured Palgrave’s Golden Treasury. No answer to my skewering of your Werribee nonsense? No acknowledgment of MY discovery that Leslie Scott had lost his hand at the wrist? You thought he had lost his arm. Dumbo! You rely on magical thinking, rumour, innuendo, obscurantism and conspiracy theory. Some of us use logic, empirical research, scientific methodology and spirit boxes. You are now completely isolated in your crazed belief that the group photo was taken in the mid to late 1930s. Your contrarianism has now withered on the vine and your ailing “creative” juices have dried up like a puddle of piss in the Simpson Desert.
Nick
Since you don’t read my posts I also stated on December 27, 2022 at 3:27 pm:
“f you zoom in on the photo of the Martins with little Norma you can see it’s the same kid. If I was Cramer I would say conclusive, absolute, total foolproof proof.
The photo is from:
https://www.geni.com/people/Daniel-Martin/6000000077197850229
According to your [Sanders] beloved Family Search site:
“When Norma Mary Martin was born on 11 November 1925, in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, her father, Daniel William Martin, was 31 and her mother, Doris Maud Webb, was 24. She married Eric Rowles Hornsby on 20 December 1947, in East Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. She died on 24 February 2019, in Sunbury, Victoria, Australia, at the age of 93.”
She later married John Graham Cass on 28 Jan 1957. Note the Geni photo comes from the Cass family MyHeritage site.”
A small acknowledgment might have been nice. Instead you fibbed to thedude747: “I don’t think I’ve proved it yet, but the (possibly) three Martins present a good visual argument which I hadn’t seen put forward anywhere”.
Em, you expect me to believe that you are best friends with the late Miss Cass? It’s about as credible as the woman who says she was on the beach when the Beaumonts were taken by Adelaide masons to the large temple on North Terrace.
If you are a fellow traveler of these Semitic identities that is fine. But please don’t insinuate that you know a thing about Moss and his interest in little kids.
Nowak, pipe down my Polish parrot: I have never said a nasty thing about Jews. Only Jestyn, a Jewess of convenience.
Bob Nowak: I’m sorry about that, I had completely missed your 27 Dec 2022 comment about the Martins, I’ll update the page accordingly. (I found the Cass family MyHeritage page simply by Googling for names.)
Now updated.
There was an old pest known as Bob
His forehead fair looked like a knob
He gobbled a pasty
And felt pretty nasty
Til a hooker [Do we really have to do this?]
Fuck I love your style.
Easily you’re the best moderator on the www.
Xxx
Bob No account: No retaliatory comments necessary on your ill chosen Martin family follow my leader ID, nor Leslie Scott’s missing arm/wrist/forearm that you, along with everyone else failed to spot in the gathering of the clan photo. There is something else in the happy snap proving beyond any doubt the Werribee local that you would love to perloin. However, as explained to Abbott family Lurch, I’ll keep you’se all on tenter hooks for the time being, there being no chance of you getting credit for it by interception this go around.
Ayurvedica: if both parties leave the court equally pissed off, divorce judges know they’ve done a good job. Same principle for moderation, I guess.
@Ayuverdica leave me out of your craziness, I never said i knew Miss Cass , i am neither in that part of the world or am I that old
Bob Nowak: is that like a “bloket”? Or a “suffraget”? Better go now or my macho croquet potatoes will burn.
Got bad news M’am the lawyer said
About your Charles we think he’s dead
Sez poor sweet Doff, Sir if you please
He had it coming fucking sleeze
I estimate the picture to have been taken around June 1925. 4 months before Mrs Norma M. Cass-Martin was born.
233 Springvale Road as can be seen on the far left of this aerial photo from the late 40s (2x horizontal buildings immediate above the dirt road – now Virginia Street leading to Sandown) is certainly not the scene for the family photo shoot…
https://m.facebook.com/Past2Present1/photos/a.623103054385601/623384724357434/?type=3&mibextid=qC1gEa
[Note that “you will have to trawl for that aerial photo. It’s a fair way down (back in 2013).”]
There are certainly some areas of interest around Mile Creek and Sandown Park where similar plant life exists. It doesn’t seem immediately apparent why you’d be going there. If you’d be celebrating the move to Springvale in 1928 you would be at the premises right?
What I’m not seeing is any likeness to Daniel Martin in the family photo, and we are missing a stack of Webb/Keane kids from the photo. Where are they? 6 of them in all ranging from age 2 to 13 in 1928. Is it a case of trying to round up everyone for the photo, but they are all off at a playground? To me it seems that Leo and Norma received the memo (if we are talking 1928).
Who is the oldest lady in front and centre of the family photo? Is it her milestone birthday in 1928 or 1929?
It doesn’t make sense that we would be celebrating Richard A Webb’s 60th (1926) as the ages of the 2 kids in shot would not be right (for 1926 it would have to be Douglas 14-15 and either Doris Amy or Gwendoline 7…which the girl is clearly much younger). Richard A is certainly not turning 70 (1936), apart from not looking a day over 62, the youngest kid of the listed names would be Ethel aged 10.
Far out!
Man, I just gotta intervene to back up my new hero Bob Nowak’s insistence on using the correct terminology to distinguish blonds from blondes Aren’t I the dude who entitled one of my albums Blonde on Blonde? And I was referring to that cool chick Edie Sedgwick. Nowt to do (I picked up that argot from Corrie) with Bertolt Brecht or any of that sad crap! B-O-B – geddit?
I’ve just been on the old blower to Sir Lord Robert Nowak and he tells me that he used to have a crush on Edie. He witnessed Nico performing in a pub once but was too abashed to tell her that he wanted to kiss the hand that had been in the same room as his sainted E. He tells me that he was shouting for Nico to play ‘I’ll Be Your Mirror” but the old bag took no notice. She did do ‘Femme Fatale’ however and there’s a sooper-dooper little video on YouTube that Bob watches every night featuring Nico’s warbling and some lovely pics of Edie:
https://youtu.be/r_4wKYrky4k
Just don’t tell ‘im she dyed her hair. Drag City Arizona!
“”Everyone knew she was the real heroine of Blonde on Blonde. oh it is not fair / oh it is not fair / how her ermine hair / turned men around / she was white on white / so blonde on blonde”
Patti Smith wrote that rubbish in 1972. Not a patch on Bob N’s rollocking rodomontade which would have made Tristan Tzara and Hugo Ball M-A-D with jealousy. That Sanders must’ve been QUAKING in his boots! B tells me that he has another one in the pipeline. Wow, I can’t wait! The next Nobel Prize in Lit is nailed on. That line with all the “bums and titties” blew my MIND!
Peace and love everyone. Must be time for the next Father Brown repeat. I’m outta here!
I’m sorry em, I meant nasty old Jo.
Inserting herself where she belongs not!
Sorry to be a downer here but is this stuff anything more than as the kids say “react” content to the ABC show? I didn’t watch the show. Did they have anybody actually claim to be in the photo, or related to anyone in the photo? Do we have any more testimonials other than Dorothy’s about the SM? I am guessing no. Please inform me if there is some.
I’m A stickler for these things. When Rene came out with the Kircher letters regarding the Voynich manuscript, I was dubious at first, and we still can’t be positive the person who described seeing it, actually saw “it”, or something like it.
We knew about the Marci “Bacon” letter as it was in manuscript. I have accepted.it is describing the Ms, though it took me a while to get to this point and even so…
This is apropos of nothing if you know nothing about the VMs. We have a good group.here that seem interested in both things, so I thought I would mention it.
Is there a relative yet advocating for the SM?
The pole in the background is pretty interesting, with two features on it – the upper metal bracket appears to have a few round globes on it, quite unique looking. I don’t think there’s a rail, I think that’s the road, path. The hedge on this property has worn away and the one on the other side appears to be conifer?
The pole can be seen at 23.45 and 23.51 in the ABC My Name is Charles Australian Story episode. Need magnifying goggles to see …. who’s got one of those 400 magnifying thingos like they have on The Curse of Oak Island – need one of those.
Auyverdica
GARN…
(That’s Australian English)
Do you need me to use it in a sentence, meiskeit? Gey strashe di gens. (That’s Yiddish).
Lurch: you can put down your glasses son, nothing doing out Sandown Park and no special race day train services like at Werribee, also no pleasure grounds for families like Chirnside Park which by 1936 had all sorts of facilities laid on, even a bowling green for the Webb boys to test their skill, swimming and the gee gees across the river. Tell you what, now that you’re serious, if you can get your act together and date the family pic, I will do my part and give you a time so long as the trains are running to schedule. Not being able to spot Charlotte Martin, sitting there with Dot as the oldest person in the group is an indictment on your limited powers of observation, so to not being able to ID her son Danny sitting behind Dot as a dead set ringer for the cove holding the bub in the ‘Cass family’ pic. We’ve still got some ways to go to tidy up this phase of the invstigation but we’ll get there yet. “Lor’ willin’ an’ the crik don’ rise.”
@ Lurch
Great find with the FB aerial photo of Springvale in the 1940s. There was so little development around the bakery! Most of the land across Springvale road was bought and then subdivided and sold by Kelly and Lewis in the early 1920s, when they were building their factory complex (just out of view of the left). It seems as though many people just “land banked” their plots…
Sandown Park ceased being a racecourse for a few decades from 1931 – so the photo could be Sandown, it would presumably be more scrubby and bush-like by the 40s. I’m more convinced than ever that Charlie learnt to be an electrical fitter with Kelly and Lewis… I had assumed that many of the more recent buildings on Springvale Road were replacements for older buildings, but it looks as though they were infill… There is a small row of older shops, also shown on the photo, that are still in place.
The other place I am wondering about is Springvale Botanical Cemetery. Amy Webb is buried there, but she is also apparently in this photo, so I’m wondering if there could be another relative buried there in the 1920s. In the doco there is a flagpole to the left of frame in the photo.
Bump.
I estimate the picture to have been taken around June 1925. 4 months before Mrs Norma M. Cass-Martin was born.
Poppins: you may be right, I can now see Clive’s white line which I had taken to be a safety rail as is depicted in my own photo of the scene. In fact if not Werribee River below, it’s likey to be a roadway culvert and a new laid concrete section of Princes Hwy (Bulban Rd) heading South out of town. You don’t need GC’s loupe glass to see the railway siding water towers in the far distance, nor the steam loco with several passenger carriages enroute to Geelong (well spotted colonel). The train has just left Werribee Station with a telltale whisp of steam rising from it’s smoke stack high into the clear sky as proof. Lor’ it brings back fond memories of childhood and one can almost ‘mell the ‘moke.
Jo (saw you on Derek’s FB)
Your slightly off line flagpole could be a telegraph post or more likely a tall gum tree. What ever it be, if your eyes adjust you’ll see it appears to bisect (an optical illusion) the distant steam train dead centre, just as the white carriage is about to pass by. And yes of course it is Amy Webb there at Springvale BC seemingly all alone in the C of E section, although I recall reading that Russell might be found lurking somewhere nearby.
Gee John,
How about your sublime powers of observation?
You had only just given Nick a pasting (“for crying out loud”) about Dot and Danny not being in centre of shot, but rather to the left of the frame with mum, and within a day you’re telling me to put my glasses on because they are in plain sight in the centre of frame with Charlotte.
But anyhow send us the links to everything you’re referencing regarding Chirnside Park and this special brush foliage and the tree that hasn’t changed a bit since your dating of 1939. Would be interesting to know is Charlotte was still alive in 1939…if it’s her in the shot, then it could’ve been her 70th (1930).
In response to your elite level of observation and on point speculation I’m not sure we are celebrating her 79th or Richard A’s retirement/selling of the business due to I’ll health in 1939. And who’s bloody kids are they? Some randos photobombing? You might need to brush up on those details, your street cred depends on it.
Bob tea leaf:
Just in case you have your envious peepers on ‘Train Spotter’ claims for the 1.10 pm Mebun to Geelong via Werribee service….(like your taking full credit for ‘105’ Mosley St. and with Les Scott’s amputated left arm to which you claimed title by correcting it to “missing hand at the wrist”. That impressed Jo sufficiently to give you her fine sleuthing award for ’22 which I’m thinking would be akin to giving Leif Errikson credit for discovering America and inventing the hand held Telephone.) forget it…how do you think I was able to twig to Dick Webb’s 70th birthday party being at Werribee and not Sandown f’rinstance.
….It was of course Norseman Leif Erikson what done the Vinland Map in 999 A.D. which some die hard Voynich skeptics insist was faked, not unlike the imposter manuscript of that name from about 1910 , our Nick Pelling not being included in that disgruntled mob, thankfully.
Lurch: you were great in the Adams family and funny too. Sadly your run with the CM family, although quite productive has not come without credibility issues. You have a tendancy to lie through your bloody teeth without any fear of being caught out ala GC at his best and that my boy is a bridge to far. I didn’t tell you to “put your glasses on” on the contrary I told you to ‘put them down’ and on the same post @ 4.13am 29th inst. I informed you that the Martins were “way down at the other end of the picture” also that lottie, (who lived into the 40s) was with them. I said nothing whatsoever about the Martins being “…in the centre of the frame with Charlotte”…You are hereby on notice to retract those deliberate lies or I will feel compelled to make representation to our Moderator that you should be placed on notice for bringing his site into disrepute and/or soundly thrashed with a lyre bird feather.
John Sanders: I’m fresh out of lyre bird feathers, will a vole nose on a cocktail stick do?
The train in the frame to which I have alluded appears to be in the form of your standard Vic. Rail K series or A2 loco both of which were fast passenger movers that plied between Spencer St. Melbourne and Geeling one or twice daily except Sundays, some express and others with stops that included Werribee. Whilst at first I opined that ours was likely an outward service, I’ve since reversed it upon closer study under higher resolution. Those still having faith in my long distance vision, quite fair for an old duffer, in the distance (26 km. DLS) I can make out what appears to be the Melbourne skyline with some rather tall buildings for the 1920s imo. I leave it to the team for their closer scrutiny and evaluation, just so long as cranks like Lurch and Bob don’t get too involved.
Dear John,
Why would I lie? It’s just that you write in riddles and don’t reference anything. It’s pretty difficult to obtain a university degree if you don’t reference where you got your information from.
But yes on review of your riddle speak from multiple posts, I see where you are coming from in relation to what could pass as my favourite Martins.
My question was actually simple…who is the older lady in the centre of the photograph?
Nick ‘smelling’ Pelling: just so’s you don’t include toad warts and bat’s eyebrows. Y’man would likely take umbrage to that sort of unseemly and grossly offensive caper.
Lurch: but you didn’t suggest that at all in your put down did you? I’ve lately wondered who the lovely lady in centre frame could be, frankly I don’t have any idea.
As I tried to explain 2 times above, Doris M. Martin-Webb appears to be 4-5 months pregnant in the family photo, dating the photo at May-June 1925 when Carl Webb was 19 years of age. Doris also seems to be radiating, her hand on her tummy, being more of the center of (party?) attention than the others, wearing her pretty pearly necklace when the other ladies don’t. This would identify the children as probably those of Freda G. Keane-Webb, Leo and Gwen.
My all knowing old cheese is quite convinced that the dud’s scarecrow, alongside Jo’s flagpole is just a common old camelia sasanqua known for their tolerance to outdoor settings and I sort of agree (don’t I dearest?). As for the smaller objects, they could be trimmings of same awaiting collection by lax park attendants.
Funny detail, the man seated before Carl (mr. Keane?) appears to hold a little dog sitting on his right knee. You can spot the ears behind Freda’s (?) hat.
I note with some mild trepidation that nobody has, as yet seen fit to comment on my confident assertion that yon puffing billy in the frame is likely Stephenson’s Rocket hauling arse towards an as yet unknown destination. Come on guys don’t keep me in suspense!
John Sanders
I larfed so hard I damn near broke a rib when I saw that THE Bob Dylan was having a go at you. He spoke to me on the phone yesterday (where did he get my number?) although he somewhat misrepresented our little confab. I ain’t never had a crush on no one!
I completely disproved your idea about Werribee Park – to a deafening silence from you. If the Webbs were there they must have been time travellers or have all been training to become priests at the Catholic seminary – even the women and children! I also identified and shared (you wouldn’t know what that felt like) the exact spot you had settled on down to the scraggly tree. Was it on a grassy knoll?
You started off with Chirnside Park which is a footie ground, then moved to Werribee Park, and now you have plumped for some random spot on a highway or railway line. You’ll be out in the middle of Port Philip Bay soon me old cobber. You’ll be claiming the pole is a ship’s mast and the hedge is a big wave, with the Webbs adrift on a raft and helplessly heading towards the beach at Willie in a brisk sou’westerly. Well, at least we know Charlie was an Able Seaman so they should make it safely.
You have finally cottoned on to that white pole weeks after most of us spotted it on the ABC Australian Story Abbott and Coll-stello show. That must have put your nose well out of joint.
Previously you thought that the “structures” you identified were WG – sorry, HG – Wells’ Martians. Perhaps you have now identified the Invisible Man in the pic. Seated behind Amy Webb, showing just his lasciviously groping hand no doubt.
You are simply jealous that Mr Pelling has had to kiss my arse over the Martin family identification (thanks Nick). He’ll soon discover that I’m right about Amy Webb and Jack Keane too. Your 1930s date has been blown out of the water like a turd out of a just flushed dodgy toilet, which has flown out and poked you in the eye and impaired your vision to the point where you start seeing things like an early Melbourne CBD skyscraper in the far distance of a vintage photo. Or was it a young Mrs Everage’s barnet in Moonee Ponds? You are taking the mick now, even more than Bowes and Cramer. You call me a crank, but you haven’t even got a handle!
You seem to have seen off Pat for good, and largely silenced Poppins, although you are still sucking up to Jo. She don’t speak to me now even though I came to her support in order to deflect some of the vitriol from our resident anti-Semite onto my broad shoulders. Seems to have worked too given that salacious poem about me – much better than your efforts at doggerel by the way, even if I had to guess the last bit which I presume referred to fellatio. Prolly Jo’s dislike of me is ‘cos I use even naughtier words than you! Or maybe she’s just pissed ‘cos she bought PB’s line about Charles Richard in the mid ’30s when we all knew full well that it was Carl in the late ’20s.
Since you “outed” me as “Bob Nowak” I am now accused of being Polish. I’m grateful old son. Such deflective nonsense suits my strategy down to a tee.
P.S. Has anyone ever heard of flaws, scratches and spots in old photographs? Some dimwit even thinks that there’s a scarecrow peeping over the hedge. Must be me old mate Worzel Gummidge. Oo arr, now where did that saucepot Aunt Sally get to?
Sandra
That ain’t no dog babe. It’s Mr Pelling’s wig which he lost back in the 1920s on a trip Down Unda and he wants it back. Pronto!
My bet for the location is Maggie’s Farm. If you look closely you can see a pig pen through a hole in the hedge. Either that or I’m a-goin’ HOG CRAYZEE!
Love to everyone.
@JS I do not have contact with DA. In fact, he has been totally ignoring my interpretation of the cryptic note when I shoved it u… brought it to his attention. It may be a strategy in his race to try and solve the SM case all by himself. He even cunningly attempted to sow confusion by switching left from right in his latest SM FB picture post. Unfortunately his own poetry-based deciphering, love-baby and balletdancing leads were fruitless.
Who-ah folks! Hold the front page. Man, I just blew up that there photo one real treat and you can quite clearly see a demon pig poking its tongue out just between the laydeez to the south of young Charlie and a bald head below it which I take to be Mr Pelling a-lookin for his wigpiece. That sly Mr Keane dude had it all along Nicholas! Atta-boy!
That hog musta ‘scaped from the devil’s pen in hell. Just like that old dirtbag Sanders ‘scaped from the funny farm.
Hi-ho ev’ry cloud has a silver linin’ and special greetin’s to my new chum Bob Nowak. And a big raspberry to Sanders. He can shove his Stephenson’s Rocket where the sun don’t shine!
Hey Sandra, it does look like a little dog, how interesting, yes, just under Charlie’s right hand. H’mm, if it is a dog that makes it more likely to be a private property. Can also see a cigarette in Mr Keane’s hand.
John Sanders, do you have access to the Hubble Telescope?
when i was little i always woud love to go through the family album and look for the time stamp. if no time stamp some relative would write the date on the back of the photo, they were good like that. did time stamps exist in the 30’s?
Sandra: yep you are undoubtedly correct with your uncanny dog spotting initiative. That would have to be ‘Spot the dog’. All the Keane pooches being black were so named so as not to create any bad feelings with the local Murries by naming them more appropriately. As you (now all of us thx to you) will have noted al the Keane Spots were known for thrir of diminutive lap top proportions. Sandy If you could reciprocate by puting a good word in for my ‘Chatanooga choo choo’ cum ‘puffing billy lead’ before your untimely departure I’d be eternally greatful..Thanks cobber and bonne chance!
Poppins,
Pardon me girl is that the Hoppers Crossing choo choo?
It was post twenty nine, don’t try to spin me a line.
It would leave from central station at a quarter of three,
Read the local form guide and you’re in Werribee,
Take a durn sight longer trav’ling to Wodonga
Woo woo Hoppers Crossing right on time.
Poppins: No Hubble for me lady. Not while my peepers can clearly make out a fast moving steam locomotive hauling arse across a photographic panorama. So little need for a star wars telescope for this old bushy. You might like to try this initiative yourself sometime it’s a breeze, could prove a real eye opener and help with self esteem issues whatsmore.
Hubble is old hat. Webb…amazingly enough is the new telescope. Apparently Webb can’t see anything in our solar system, therefore can’t see me chugging on my 3 Brazilianth beer enjoying 2023. Happy New Year people.
John Sanders, I think I see the train you speak of, it’s part of the hedge and lower light or sign on the pole creating the choo choo train illusion. I do believe it’s a case of pareidolia. Yesterday travelling home from Mount Macedon in the cloud formation I saw a rabbit wearing a hat riding a tricycle.
@Poppins & Lurch
Melbourne’s Australia Building all of twelve stories was touted as tallest building in world when built in Flinders Lane in 1889. That is until the taller Manchester Unity building (still standing) with it’s additional 80 ft flagpole went up next to it in 1932. Needless to say, both would have been clearly visible from Werribee a distance of just 28kms in the thirties especially with it’s 500mtr. to 10mtr. elevation advantage, there being no rising ground between to block the view. As I mentioned last year, no need to for no telescopes (Hubble/Webb) to spot what can be seen with a pair of good old peepers so get to it kids…then raise your glasses with me to Auld Lang Syne for a Happy New Year to all (some exceptions notwithstanding).
Poppins: You’d be familiar with orchid flowers taking on illusionary shapes. Little to do with the camelia sasanqua japonica bush growing alongside your pareidolia flag pole of course, and absolutely nought to do with yon ‘Orange Blossom Special’ ie., “Hey look a-yonder comin’ it’s rollin’ down that railroad track. It’s the OBS bringin’ my baby back”.
GC : hope you don’t object to me puting up a couple of TS/BS posts to avoid need for future confusion this end…We all have a host of interesting leads to follow so good hunting and best for ’23..js
TS/BS Apr 22, 2017….The Somerton Man when measured on the slab in the mortuary was 5′ 11″ in height…
TS/BS May 20, 2021….In fact when measured in the mortuary, he was 5′ 11″ in height.
astraeiform20.rssing.com. We know that SM, when measured on the slab, was
5′ 11″ in height.
TS/BS Jan 1, 2023..Some time ago I included a note in one of the posts in which I raised the issue of the absence of any evidence regarding the height of ‘Carl Webb’
Sandra & Poppins: looks like ‘spot the dog’ might have up and off while we were concentrating on Scotty’s missing limb to assess his level of disability entitlement. Can’t spot the little rascal elswhere on the frame, unless he’s ducked under one of the ladies shifts, or else has spotted a march hair on a skate board and is by now half way to Mt. Macedon.
Abba:
I’m a big fan of yours.
Werribee is to the west of Melbourne right?
Assuming that I’m meant to be seeing somewhere there in the family photo the Manchester Unity building in Melbourne, how is it that the late morning or early afternoon sun is coming from the south west?
It does raise the question, what time of day and time of year is this, and can the direction the photo is being captured be attained from Melbourne’s sun path diagram (found here):
https://www.gaisma.com/en/location/melbourne.html
At the summer solstice, sunrise is 30° south of due east, while sunset is 30° south of due west, while the 13:30 sun is 75° off the north horizon.
At the winter solstice, sunrise in 30° north of due east, while sunset is 30° north of due west, while the 12:00 sun is only 30° off the north horizon.
During the equinoxes, the sun rises and sets at due east and west respectively, while the 13:00 sun is 53° off the north horizon.
Looking at the shadows cast by the pointed toed shoes of the lady with the dark hat, it seems to be at about a 40° angle from the ground to tip of shoe.
This means it could be 10:00 in February or October if the photographer is facing NW-NNW. It also means it could be 12:00 in April or August if the photographer is facing W-WNW or 15:00 in April or August if the photographer is facing WSW-SW. Of course there are permutations of everything in between, but it eliminates Werribee where the photographer is facing Melbourne (I’m not saying it eliminates Werribee), and it also gives us the months February-April and also August-October in whatever year. Whether that helps with the occasion, dunno.
Addendum
Of course, it could be 17:00 on December 22 if the photographer is facing due south, or 09:30 if facing north.
My reasoning for suggesting the months of February-April or August-October is that some seem to be dressing for cooler weather and it’s impossible for the sun to be at that angle from mid-May to July. But then again it is Melbourne and I was freezing my balls off only a couple of weeks ago here in Adelaide.
Lurch: South West or 45 degrees further south puts all your westerly shadow and soltice calulations etc., leaving us up Werribee River without a clue as to which way is up. If you could factor the ammended direction bearing into the equasion I’m thinking it may indeed give us a clear view of Melbourne and the Manchester Unity Building’s flag staff from Werribee (28 clicks SW). I recommend that you go back to the compass and protractor, that being the only safe way forward..and let us all be reminded of Robert Goulet’s words of encouragement “On a clear day you can see forever”.
…..while you’re at your task don’t forget that there is also some minor variation in elevation between Melbourne and Werribee to be considered. Certainly not the 1500 feet I suggested earlier, more like 100 feet give or take an inch
The young boy lying on the grass appears to have a uniform on. Near his left elbow it appears to be a cross over a white line, so some type of uniform, per chance?
John:
I don’t believe there is a definitive way of knowing the field of view of the shot without having the original print & knowledge of the exact equipment used. Either that or you would need to know the location and start measuring, none of which we have. But with some general assumptions you could say that the field of view is approximately 50°, which gives you 25° either side of centre (der, no kidding).
Now from Werribee it would appear that the Melbourne CBD is in a ENE direction (67.5° from N give or take a couple of degrees). Therefore the photographer with approximate 50° field of view, has to be facing in a NE direction if Melbourne was to be on the right of frame, ENE if Melbourne was to be centred, and E if Melbourne was to be on the left of frame.
Now if you refer to Melbourne’s sun path diagram that has been pretty much a constant in the last 100 years, you will realise that there is no time of the year that the sun could be coming in at that angle i.e. the sun would have to be positioned 40° off the horizon to the south.
Right at this point we can debunk the possibility of Melbourne being in the background of this Chirnside Park location in Werribee.
The next thing to understand is depth of view. It seems clear to me that the photographer’s intent was to capture those people in the frame, and not the Melbourne CBD. For this type of capture, the persons in frame would be in focus and centralised in the depth of view. Outside of this depth of view window everything becomes more blurry (both objects in front and behind). This is simple physics at work, it works the same for our own eyesight and is the reason we might wear glasses with lenses to correct our own depth of view deficiencies. I would extremely doubt (direction of sunlight problem ignored) that you could see anything in Melbourne CBD with any clarity while you are focusing on a crowd of people 5m in front you.
Can we please put it to bed that Melbourne CBD is not in the background of this photo if it was taken from Werribee?
If you are adamant that you can see an extremely blurred building in Melbourne, behind the family, then you need to begin looking at a location to the east of Melbourne.
The Webb family should be asked to create a colorized version of the family picture. I’m certain a TV network would pay.
This just gives an idea in a 30-second attempt using free demos to colour and then improve,
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rbXgNsFklV2oq0kYVln4t1sEyVlK1Qrz/view?usp=sharing
Lurch: I didn’t say I was adamant about the Melbourne skyline being visible as you well know and can confirm by my related post of 9.51am 30th instant. In essence, whilst rather confident, I cautioned by suggesting that the team might make closer scrutiny and evaluate on my guarded claims. The recommendation was for simple scanning of the image by ‘the team’ without need for sophistcated visual aids ie., your cute Webb telescope. So now your suggesting we might just as well put the matter to bed, well how convenient and fuck you very much but, I’m still hopeful that my apparent view of Melbourne in the frame might be vindicated.
John, I haven’t said that it can’t be Werribee, it’s just that in Werribee the photographer would have to be facing a direction with Melbourne behind him/her for the sun to be where it is. The Werribee dream is alive John, I just need to understand why they would need to go there and how they would each get there from their various places of abode, but that’s no different than any location.
Lurch: understand your point but still feel its somewhat academic in that if
folks outnumber me then that’s that, so what I took to be possibly distant tall buildings in the top left hand corner of a grainy old photo on a poorly aligned computer screen, were obviously nothing but a fanciful illusion. As an aside, in answer to your question on why would they travel to and from a rural setting like Werribee. It just happened to be a very popular weekend getaway for suburban dwelling sightseers, race goers, garden lovers and picnicers. I suspect that train services, steam and motor rail from the city were regular on weekends, there and away. It would be handy for most of those attending, though given, Maffra Station Master Lindsay Scott had a long trip in from way out east and would probably have arranged to stay a day or two with his brother Leslie in Moonie Ponds.
GC: thank Goodness we still have your BS/TS fact based web page to rely upon.
In cross checking your latest ground breaking George Geordie Webb feature, you state categorically that he died at Adelaide oval and arrived at the city Morgue on Monday 13th June, 1949, just in time to meet slab mate Jerry Somerton before his internment…Those bastards at Wiki and their bullshiting on line cohorts are telling all who will believe them that your Geordie passed away on 3rd June 1950, a full year after your own unrefutable date line confirms. Oh and by the way, they also maintain that, whilst he had connections with Richmond club, he never played a game with them. How about that; I’d sue the lot of them if I were you. Good on you Gordon, way to go!
,,,,punters will surely pick up on the fact that Wiki and Co. have conveniently deleted datelines off the two newspaper items advising of Geordie’s demise and have a dambed hide to post the very same photos as you’ve kindly provided your own loyal band of followers ie., PeteDavo, Anon & Die Bach. The lengths that some people will go to in distorting the truth, eh mate!
John Sanders … redlegsmuseum.com.au Hall of Fame .. Webb, George. Died 13 June 1949.
‘The lengths that some people (you?) will go to in distorting the truth, eh mate?
Peteb…..you wouldn’t believe it but, now even AustFootball.com are giving fans their take on renowned ‘Red Legs’ footballer George@Geordie@Dibby Webb ie., bn.1868, died 3rd May, 1952 aged 83….I’ve done me own bit of grave digging around Adelaide and can report that amongst thousands of dead Webbs, I’ve found only two worth a mention. Sure enough there is a George that was planted at West Terrace on 15/6/49, a day after our main man Jerry Somerton, and another next door at Hindmarsh from 7/6/50 (see above 3/7/50). Only trouble with both of them is that neither seem to been well remembered as one might expect of a footy legend and Norwood Hall of Famer. No real deal although it could mess with GC’s own ‘fact based’ Geordie Webb thread of even date. He contends that his old mate Paul must have had some premonition of SM’s demise on 1st December 1948 and so, “In June 1948, (inset pic of West Terrace morgue) this was where Paul Lawson, the taxidermist from Adelaide Museum had set up the workplace needed to create the plaster bust of the Somerton Man” (GC@TS/BS)….Getting back to George from West Terrace whose requiem in pace only metres from DA’s ‘my name is Charlie’ must now be himself, a candidate for exhumation if so desired, ie,m had he been prepared for interrment while Paul was piling on the wet plaster whatever it’s quite possible that loose hairs from George Webb ended up stuck to the bust. Agreed, it would be a rare coincidence indeed ala Dorothy & Dr. John Bennett, if the DNA was misread and it was actually from George’s hair and not SM’s. The deceased arrived at West Terrace without any history at all apart from the name George Webb and a date of burial. That being the case than we have a problem ‘Heuston’ worse still, we’ll have gone to Gowings..So what’s your take?
Gorgon Framer esq. (Dec.)
Many thanks. Turns out that I was able to get what I wanted from a most reliable source @NAA re Mortuary No. 5332 Wolff Wilhelm Cohen, died 1/12/48 Adelaide, intered Jewish section West Terrace Cemetery on 9/12/48?. If it’s of any interest to you, be my guest and no need for any heads up. Yeah I know mugger, I’m being plagued by by invitations from a persistant troll claiming to be from the dormant fandom ‘anemptyglass’ website.
Cordially as always,
John ‘Colonel’ Sanders
More dust, Dusty, a regular blizzard of the stuff … your skill is to be admired, if not copied, though few are capable of spreading it so wide.
Peter Bowes:
AuxtralianFootball.cohttps://www.australianbootball.com>…
Geordie Webb – Player Bio
George Webb. Known as. Geordie Webb. Nickname Geordie, Dibby. Born 9 August
1868. Died 3 May 1952 (aged 83). Place of death. Adelaide, SA (5000) ????????
it’s ashes to ashes and dust to dust, if a blizzard be blowin’ then PB your stuff’t.
Was the smell of ether on Carl really a form of paraffin used to massage bruises?
The guy who was buried just after Carl – George Webb swore by eucalyptus and olive oil to massage bruises.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/46856972?searchTerm=%22george%20webb%22%2C%20norwood
Was Carl involved in some form of vigorous exercise – e.g. weightlifting/wrestling and used oil or wax to massage his muscles?
“Paraffin wax can also minimize muscle spasms and inflammation as well as treat sprains.”
Petebowes: not expecting an apology for your slur on my integrity but, admitting that you may have misjudged death dates and years i.e., 13/6/49 & 3/5/52 for S.A. hall of fame footballer George Webb, appropos conflicting data from two online authoritive sources might be in order.
R.K. Pretender, George Webb of Norwood Football Club died on Monday 13 Jun 1949. Died & Buried on 15 Jun 1949, per West Terrace Cemetery, which suggests gravediggers were working 24/7?
Clive, you got me there pal. OK, so you say George died on the Monday 13 June, 1949. I can see where your coming from there but, suggesting he “Died & Buried”
on 15th inst. is somwhat akin to double jeapardy by my take. Not helped at all by the “gravediggers were working 24/7?” after comment. You been getting off on makings of that new stuff from over KI or summit?
David Morgan, that photo looks absolutely amazing, good on ya, just love it, great idea to get it colourised. It doesn’t show Eliza, I’d been imaging her dress as a maroon colour 🙂
John Sanders .. what can I say, a moment’s inebriation courtesy of an old friend’s surprise visit from the depths of Nimbin’s forests, an hour or five by the fire, a bottle or three of Bundy’s finest, a selection of Tchaikovsky’s violin concertos and there I was casting illicit slurs on your good self …
I’m much diminished.. though I must admit, there are more dickheads around here than I have rabbits on the farm.
If we take it as a given that following the separation in mid ’47, the former couple were no longer in touch with their respective families. That is through until Carl’s death eighteen months later in December ’48 and Doff’s subsequent hooking up with Geoffrey Lockyer in ’51, then how in hell did each support themselves in the interim. Anyone ever give that any thought?. Before answering the question, take it as fact that we have no confirmation of him having followed his trade in W.A. or she doing likewise in S.A. In both cases, I’d contend that it can only be answered by speculation and that don’t count for nothing.
Peterbowes: that’s more than I deserve and hardly worth the trouble. You didn’t happen to mention my name to your mate from Nimbin per chance?
@JohnSanders that is why he had his tools in a bag in a locker. i suspect he went around travelling from place to place doing odd jobs under an assumed name
@JS Does having a ship’s third officer’s stencilling brush in his suitcase ring any bells to you?
David Morgan – Nice picture version! But why is that octopus attached to the back of Carl’s now bald head?
In connection with all this Redlegs (George Webb) crap I found an old post on the July 26 ‘SOMERTON MAN IDENTIFIED AS CARL “CHARLES” WEBB (BUT MYSTERY STILL INTACT)…’ thread:
“Lady Armanda Fortescue-Humperwell
on July 30, 2022 at 9:43 am said:
Here’s what I know.
Carl Webb did not die.
George died. How do you like those apples, you retards??
From a family member.”
Didn’t know GC was a Lady. Didn’t know he was a Webb family member. His super stoopid stooges and patsies Bowes and Sanders have swallowed this garbage hook, line and sinker. One is a sex-starved old surfie who can’t get a ride on a woodie no more – Wipe Out! – and the other is a brain-dead ex-cop who couldn’t arrest his own haemorrhoids with a rubber band. Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow!
https://youtu.be/AnW2WNHiTPw
O-Ann: super cool, well spotted and all but, 3.43 am (EST) is a tad early for Gordon to be out of the fart sack (Alan Hamill might though). As you so inellequently point out Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow, POMM for short means Absolutely mucking Nothing. GC’s “Red legs” (note PM reference to sunburn?) @George Webb did not die on 1st Dec. 1948, SM did…retard!
@Calypso: the little stencil brush seems to be far too small to have been used by a ship’s third officer. I’m thinking that an air cargo load master be a far better choice. Typically one doubling as a Foreign Affairs courier working out of a consular office eg., Japan, Philippines, Siam, or Singapore, charged with consigning diplomatic mail and personal belongings to and from Australia in the immediate post war era.
em: Had Carl been going from place to place doing odd jobs under an assumed name then, I dare say that thhere would be an even greater chance of him being recognised from the press photo by those who hired him casually, than them what knew him personally, all things considered; would you not concur?
JS: Not KI or summit, Newspapers confirm that George Webb died on 13 Jun 1949, why WTC advise he died & was buried on same day is beyond me, looks like a ‘grave’ mistake.
Calypso: My response to a query from David Morgan was, had I been sibling of a POW whose fate was still unclear and resting place uncertain after the war, like many families of still missing POW’s, I wouldn’t rest until I learnt the truth. It be my own understanding that the Webbs were only provided with rudimentary details concerning Roy, and thus were not at all satisfied, particularly Carl who may well, acting on impulse, have set off to where such answers might be had. He may have travelled to places where 2/29th Btn. POW’s were sent such as Malaya, Siam and Burma. If that failed, then to Japan where the War Crimes Commission of inquiry was sitting in Tokyo and he might well have stayed on until completed in April ’48 or until judgement was handed down by Sir William F. Webb on 12th November 1948. Such a case scenario will be difficult for some to accept and so be it, but it would account for Carl’s abscence during the period outlined and whatsmore is totally in sync. with the time frame. Chief Justice Webb flew in to Essendon on an RAAF flight on 29th November 1948, according to historian Peter Provis (Flinders Uni. 2015)
Clive: best to let George RIP in his unmarked plot, folks around here are not into graven humour; nor any other kind it seems. Up there and at em Geordie Webb.
@ JS not an unlikely scenario at all.
To everyone who may have missed it, as I posted in another thread, there is some highly interesting new information on the cryptic note:
https://ciphermysteries.com/tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-481125
This is becoming very sinister, and with yet another reference to Norway as well!
John Sanders
Not for one split second did I think it was GC, but you are so easy to wind up that I had to try it on for size. Has your old mate Bowes found somewhere to park his woodie yet? Perhaps if you clear those haemorrhoids up?
I have temporarily given up the search for Carl and Doff and am on the track of this anti-Semitic troll who has dogged this site for too long and who Pilchard encourages with his cosy slaps on the wrist.
Just come across this little snippet:
“Lady Janet of Adelaide
on June 18, 2021 at 1:32 am said:
Sanders […] uncircumcised tool […] slick of dry precum […] bla bla bla”
Personally I couldn’t give a damn whether you’ve had the clip or not. In fact the thought of your shrivelled old todger makes me gag, and not in a good way!
Another charmer here:
“Jessica Torrance Keane
on April 28, 2021 at 8:14 am said:
Good evening super sleuthers!
[bla bla bla] Jessica Harkness [bla bla bla] lesbian lover [bla bla bla] nappy [bla bla bla] shit [bla bla bla] Torah [bla bla bla] flaccid mummified cock [bla bla bla] ate it with full Jewish funeral rights. [bla bla bla]”
I do wonder if it’s Nick himself not being able to keep his Tourette’s under control.
Ann O: thanks verily for your lack of concern for my appendage and what may or may not be hanging from it. Truth be known, at my advanced age and present state of manly well being, it really doesn’t matter one iota, but for the fact I can still use it to pass water with occasionally..God willing and if the crick don’t rise too fast.
Ann O: moderating is no fun, particularly when commenters insist on using their-own-in-joke pseudonyms all the time.
….What’s more Ann is that my nubile young (ish) missus doesn’t seem to mind.
” Hey Ruby me love, are you contemplating going out somewhere? “.
John Sanders
I don’t like Ann O’s nasty insinuations about you and Bowes. I don’t like them at all!
Last night I attended a seance at the Old Sodbury Village Hall and the medium said that her spirit guide Pocadot Bikini had a message for…you! I decided to stand in as proxy and took the liberty of impersonating you. Hope you don’t mind old soldier.
The message was from none other than Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester, another vicious anti-Semite whose party massacred many Jews in 13th century England. He said you had been claiming to be a descendant of the noble de Montfort line. In fact cobber you needn’t worry about being tainted with any such “sins of the father” and all that, because in reality you are descended from his great-grandfather Simon the Bold’s Groom of the Stool, who was ignominiously beheaded for his adultery with the Count’s beloved wife Matilda.
No surprises then that you are from an ignoble line and it possibly explains why you are so keen to wipe Cramer’s bum clean every time he comes up with another ridiculous hypothesis.
It is interesting to compare the way the police handled the Pyjama Girl case with SM. The resolution of the identity of the PG was made by teeth – ignoring the earlier dentists who did not arrive at the same conclusion. Carl looked like he had good teeth as a younger man. It is surprising that they didn’t confer with dentists to find a patient with a matching dental chart. But then they were convinced he was an outsider – because of the American clothing. In the PG case they had the two dentists of the two suspected victims in court,
Who would have been Carl’s dentist in the 1940s?
Nick Pelling: if you didn’t have so much on your plate, you might be better able to keep your more spirited ‘commenters’ under some form of control. If a greater window of opportunity could be made available for genuine commenters to share their thoughts, that could put a dampener on Ann O and like disturbing elements.
Nick
Perhaps if commenters didn’t have to put up with being trolled (Jo, Pat etc) and impersonated (Deni, Sandra etc) – note they are all women – they wouldn’t have to resort to such devious tactics. My colleague Steve H was accused by John Sanders of being several earlier commenters, including the obnoxious Bob Nowak, so he had to pretend (with my collusion) that he was dead to get some peace of mind. He admits that he did impersonate GC for some Yuletide fun and frolics. He says: “Like, OMG, totally apol to Mr Cramer for any offence dude. Whatever (yawn).”
It shouldn’t be too difficult to moderate out the type of garbage I quoted above.
Allow me to comment on the trolling here…
TBH it’s not even that good. The commenters that have left the building have likely done so in boredom and lack of reciprocal contribution. But by all means keep going, someone might one day come up with an absolute belter that I might be able to use in real life.
@david morgan, Carl would have had a dentist for sure unless he pulled out his teeth on his own .
Returning to the poison – foxglove or digitalis would it be growing in the wild anywhere in Adelaide? just going back to that piece of grass found on CW.
Also anyone find out if Jo Thomson grew or owned foxglove plants.
Were they playing cricket?
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148696448/view
Em,
yes, foxglove did grow wild in places in Adelaide and it was fairly common in gardens in the 1940s. These points were covered several years ago. Jo Thomson had a lifelong interest in pharmacology (information from a relative of Jo’s by marriage). The grass found in SM’s trouser cuff was barley grass.
Lurch,
I don’t think any of the trolls (there’s the Norwegians again!) could go two rounds with a revolving door.
so it must have been the offending pasty
@david morgan, well i did notice they had similar looking white shirts
Re the white shirts, I thought I touched on it here (with the first link):
https://ciphermysteries.com/2023/01/01/gladys-may-webb-and-leslie-william-scott#comment-481127
It seemed the norm whilst frolicking at a picnic.
Byron: Not certain what you’re getting at with “there’s the Norweians again”. Though I do recall your original SM suspect Charles Mikkelsen (died at sea) and by turn the M/V Tirranna (sunk by HMS Tuna) were both of Norwegian origin; So too the cans of King Oscar sardines (laced with strontium) that as yet to be identified SM was said to have over indulged on two weeks before his suspicious demise. And last but by no means least, part time nationalist & full time traiter Vidkun Quisling, executed (martred?) in 1945 was himself of Viking/Nordic stock.
Worth mulling over for any Carl Webb similarities perhaps.
@lurch white shirts were the norm everywhere in the 1930’s however the collars seem to differ ie more stiff collar in contrast to the more relaxed ones with large lapels that the younger lads seem to be sporting.they could have been wearing cricket shirts or just sport shirts in general
Hi Nick,
Whoops, that last post was meant to go into this section, no worries, am curious if it is him. Cheers, no worries, good on ya.
LV Keane comparison attempt, circled possible Christian Brothers uniform
https://imgur.com/MYimV4A
OK, you’ve all seen the NAA photo. everybody happy that it’s Norm Webb, born 17/12/21. Looks like the same strapping lad at 14 or 15. And yep, right on the mark to be the young fellow depicted in the Webb family gathering celebrating his grandad’s 70th birthday in 1936.
John Sanders – We have also all seen how abusive, utterly respectless and immature you are about women, last night having called one “Winklepussy” and now trying to blend in to conversation with women in here again as if nothing happened.
David Morgan, Poppins and badly mistaken roaring twenties pro Leo Vivian Keane die hards; prepare for a rude shock or, maybe not. Facebook ID club loyalties and Confirmation bias ain’t gonna be no help when time comes time for reflection on what went arse up.
John Sanders, it would be good if it was confirmed as Leo though in a Christian Bros uniform, then we could lock it in as 1928/29 as the date of the photo. And if he is in his uniform that’s interesting too, either a school event or popped in somewhere after school from South Melbourne, so local maybe …. conditions apply.
Poppins: it would be excellent if we could confirm either one; Norman must have the edge over Leo by my reckonning, in that his pudgy full face in the family photo holds true with the inlistment pic as do general facial appearance and hair.
Having now seen the military photos of all four cousins in question, I’m still confident that the boy in front is Russell’s, just as I’m still of the opinion that if a Keane lad is present, he’s rather the fellow sat farthest to the left, behind Eliza. The way that this latter chap’s smile seems to extend farther out on the left side than the right strikes me as quite similar to adult Jack’s grin, though I suppose it could instead be Leo.
I don’t think we should rule out that the frontmost boy could be Norman’s elder brother, Charles Richard. What do you all think about the lounging lad’s resemblance to one brother’s military photo versus to the other’s? My understanding from loosely following the conversation here is that the presence of their mother Amy would mean that the picture must have been taken by 1929, as she died that year. If she actually is part of the group (as Stuart Webb has reportedly stated), that would mean that if the boy in front is Charles Richard, he could have been as old as 12. If it’s Norman, he couldn’t have been past eight years old.
@Poppins not sure if CBC (if that’s what you mean by Christian Brothers) had a cross on their suit coats, and I could imagine almost any Christian school having a crucifix badge that some people *might* wear.
I’ll see if I can find out for certain, but I’m not sure how much CBC had a uniform beyond the tie and the jumper (most photos I’ve seen appear to have plain socks – although later they would have been grey with purple and white bands near the top). Even in the last 20 or 30 years the senior school uniform dictated the shirt colour, tie, jumper and socks – but the suit itself was simply ‘grey suit’ (much like students can wear whatever shoes they want as long as they’re black). I have a suspicion that even earlier the colour of the suit might not have been specified – or at least not enforced as pedantically as it was later.
Some egs of St Joseph’s – Christian Brothers South Melbourne Tech, on their Facebook page, here: https://m.facebook.com/100057341324747/
None specifically from the 1920s-30s.
milongal: you might like to break with yout pledge and check Gordon’s latest post that comes with a letter from Dr. John Berkeley [sic] Bennett sent to the coroner in May 1948? (not allowed to critique GC’s blooper) and discussing in general well known disipation characteristics of Sodium Pentathol from the blood stream & viscera. This was not mentioned at the inquest, instead the doctor was limited to his own brief involvement on day one when he gave the death declaration and made some afternotes (not tendered). Highly suspicious, not only that the letter is not signed and in the attribution Dr. Bennett’s middle name Barkly presents as Berkeley which is either a deliberate mistake or a stupid error. If the letter be genuine then one might ask why the young doctor, still an intern (9/47 cert.) would wish to give critical analysis on a subject not within his sphere of medical expertise. He must hsve known that a proper pathology report would form part of evidence presented at any upcoming inquest by a qualified examiner. Highly unlikely and has all the earmarks of one wanting to conceal something by offering something to deflect any fault finding with his initial intervention. Worthy of your input I’m sure.
Jamie S. – the picture probably dates from May-June 1925:
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/12/28/dating-the-webbs-family-photo#comment-480692
@Poppins – apologies it seems to have filtered out. I tried to retract the CBC post – I was thinking CBC Adelaide, not CBC St Kilda (or any of the other Christian Brothers Schools in Vic). I sort of naturally assumed Adelaide – but of course our characters grew up in Melbourne – so my bad.
@JS – Having a look. First thing I’ve noticed is he mentions a document date of 21 May 1948 – 6 months before SM even died. I assume he means 1949, but in that case it’s only a month before the inquest (and things could change). Oops, that’s the blooper you’re talking about.
As for “Published 1947” vs 1940 – maybe Bennet had a newer edition.
But suppose you’re a young grad and you’re not jaded by the system yet. You overhear (or perhaps are told) something, and it triggers something you remember from recent readings of text books. You tell your boss, and their response “Send me a memo about it”. If anyone agrees to your analysis, they’ll pinch it (so you won’t get called to inquest) and if they don’t it disappears into the ether. But off course in either of those scenarios I’m assuming they even read it. The Berkely/Barkly might be interesting (I assume that’s in the youtube? I didn’t watch that), but perhaps he dictated it to someone else (probably unlikely for an intern) or perhaps he was being pretentious and thought it might make people assume some connection “Berkely Medical School”.
Although Barkley seems to have been a family name (all the brothers share the middle name, as does their Grandfather)
My take: The letter exists because he thought so, but didn’t get mentioned at inquest because others didn’t agree (or dismissed it as “what this guy know?”).
Or did I get a different end of the stick to what you intended?
I agree the four candidates all look similar, h’mm, maybe it can be solved by the ear shape. The Keane’s and the Webb’s have distinctly different ear shapes.
https://imgur.com/U2QH2Fi
Milongal, not your bad at all, it was my bad, I left out the T for technical college, my should have been CBTC 🙂 Christian Brothers Technical College.
Thanks Jo, it’s hard to find a Christian Brothers class photo from the late ’20s, early 30s. I’ll keep looking too, could be any school uniform, of course, but definitely looks Catholic, if that be a cross or similar.
Milongal: my best guess is, had it been Dr. Bennett who wrote the letter, then it might well have been to throw off any suspicions relating to his hastily drawn conclusions from an all too brief examination of the deceased in the back of a police ambulance. Had he suspected sodium pentathol as a likely cause of death, then why didn’t he express such an opinion when the negative lab results were first tendered and published for public knowledge only a day or so following the autopsy rather than wait six months to do so. It might also be borne in mind that Dr. Dwyer and Jim Cowan both worked out of the same hospital as both he and his future wife Sister Sparrow at that time. In a nut shell it’s all too cosy for my liking which is as far as I’m permitted to go without incurring the wrath of censorship.
Poppins:
I have been summoned!
It may come as no surprise that I’ve also been eyeing the ears. The shape and position of the concha (the ear’s “hollow”) is part of why I’ve been Team Webb in terms of the young lad’s identity. As per the four men’s photos, I reckon that if the boy were a Keane then the hollow wouldn’t extend so upwardly, and thus a larger part of his ear would instead be antihelix (just as we see with the far-left fellow behind Eliza). Since the reverse is true (proportionally more concha and less antihelix), I would say that’s an indicator toward one of Russell’s sons.
You’re right, Poppins, about each set of brothers sharing a general ear shape that’s very different from the other pair’s. I think that the overall form of the frontmost boy’s ear is another point for the Webbs as well, since the top half seems to taper up to a point in the same sort of way, and would likely do so even more if we were to turn his head a bit to match the men’s forward-facing positions (while again and in contrast, the other chap in the family photo has ears in fine Keane form).
I particularly favor Charles as the maxing-relaxing kid. That’s partly because, at least in my opinion, Adult Norman’s ears appear too “pinned back” for him to have had earlobes as protrusive as our boy’s seem to be (judging by his right ear, the one on the left as we see it). But I wouldn’t necessarily rule Norman out for that reason alone, given the difference in age, viewing angle, and the picture quality. Other features up for brotherly comparison might include the end of the nose and lower lip thickness, but that’s not why we’re here. We’re here for those glorious pinnae!
Ear Fact: That hole is deep! I stuck Play-Doh in mine once and my mum had to take me to the hospital to get that bugger out. Not my finest hour but I’ve since learned to resist the temptation and you can, too. Take proper care of your ears; don’t put just anything in there!
In summary, the ears of the lounging lad seem to be more consistent with those of the Webb brothers, with the slight edge given to Charles on account of their apparent lower protrusion. For your consideration and listening pleasure, this has been yet another oration all about auricles. Thanks for tuning in!
But Jamie – Charles Richard Webb was blond? However, I would never dispute that you are the oracle on auricles! 😉
@JS I was always taught “never put anything smaller than your elbow in your ear”….certainly distracted me enough to wonder how you get your elbow anywhere near your ear 😉
I’m becoming quite concerned about the South Australian Police DNA tests. It’s been alleged that Somerton was buried in a wet section of the cemetery with two others. However it was originally stated that he was buried in a dry and sandy section should the remains need to be disinterred. I understand the three-deep pauper’s grave but it’s hard to think he wouldn’t have been buried on top. And you’d think appropriately tagged. West Terrace Cemetery is dry as a bone. Whenever I stay in Adelaide I take a room in the hotel over the corner. So why the sudden ‘remains may not be viable’ vibe?
@Poppins
Thanks for the phots! Tbh I think the boy is none of them 😱
I should very much like to wish my fellow Australians – and any Commonwealth Realm subjects – a happy Australia Day for tomorrow. Australia may be a little more than two centuries old but the golden threads between it and the United Kingdom give it a glorious thousand year inheritance. Three cheers for the King of Australia.
@milongal: just one of those typical tongue-in-cheek parental words of wisdom; Similar to putting one’s foot in one’s mouth or maybe not. Acceptable on-line just so long as it doesn’t imply suggesting self harm to a person dumb enough to try such a daunting stunt.
@ Kara van Parque – I would respectfully like to point out that Australia is not a little over 200 years old. The penal colony of Port Jackson was established in 1788, Australia became a federated nation in January 1901 and Australia Day was first used as a term in the 1930s as was Day of Mourning, used by Australian Indigenous people. Indigenous people have of course known what is now Australia as country for over 50,000 years. Invasion Day and Survival Day are more recent terms, used by some Indigenous and non Indigenous people. Australia Day first became a national public holiday, versus observed by individual states, in 1994. I am Australian, born in the United Kingdom and choose not to celebrate Australia Day. 26 January is also Indian Republic Day, I have spent this day in India, where it is universally observed without the dissension attached to Australia Day. Anyway, enjoy your day tomorrow, however you choose to spend it.
I do not believe the Webb family photograph was an Australia Day picnic as Victoria only adopted 26 January as Australia Day or Foundation Day in 1931.
Would it be beyond the realms of possibility for a CM group member simply to ask Stuart Webb who each person is in the photo in his opinion?
If he points to one and says – ‘he was my dad’ we may be able to eliminate at least one of them.
Or is finding out the easy way cheating?
@ David – Stuart Webb was in contact with Pete Bowes but has now stopped responding. I note that both you & Stuart are members of Derek Abbott’s Identifying the Somerton Man Facebook Group, as are Pat, Steve and Poppins. I’d be prepared to contact Stuart if my 1930 Springvale FC photo turns up a positive result or if there is a positive find via either the Freemasons search of member index cards or the Springvale Historical Society’s Kelly and Lewis records.
thank you @jo
Yes Jo… Australia didn’t exist before 1788 because the locals – in addition to not having invented the wheel or Bronze Age tools – had no concept of dates or what the rest of the world regarded as nationhood. Celebrate a primitive Stone Age civilisation all you like, or venerate the Mughals in India – no longer doing so well since the British Governors left eh! – but I’ll celebrate the King and my British inheritance if you don’t mind. My people. Like eighty percent of my fellow Aussies sans the self haters.
Notice that I don’t thank the Crown on ‘Sorry Day’ in order to upset Aborigines.
Speaking as someone who met Charlie Perkins and Lois O’Donoghue and was utterly unconvinced by them – even as a left leaning teen in 1997 – may I just reiterate that the best thing ever to happen to this country was the arrival of James Cook RN.
Jo… any idea what Centennial Park represents? Asking for a friend. [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] [abuse] [abuse] [racist abuse] .
Moderate that, Nick. Publish at will.
It’s your website but the truth is too spicy for you.
Jo:
Do we know what color CR’s hair was? I think you’ve said that it was reportedly fair at one point, but described as dark on another occasion…
In any case, the color of one’s hair is probably a lot easier and more subject to change than their ears are. For example, if one spends a lot of time out in the sun without a hat, their hair might lighten up quite a bit, and most of all toward the ends (which have been exposed to light the longest). With a short or poofy enough hairstyle, these ends could obscure the darker roots underneath, and so the overall color might appear fairer. If the person then cuts off that older, bleached portion of hair, then they’ll be back to a darker shade again (of course, only where the hair is cut). And the more length that’s removed, the darker it will look (up to the point where the scalp begins showing through, anyway).
It seems that the longer section of CR’s hair might have been a fair bit lighter than the rest in that military photo, so perhaps his hair had been sunbleached upon that first assessment. If he’d kept it shorter or more covered up during his service, then it might have appeared darker later on (perhaps even moreso if he’d done both). Just a thought!
David Morgan:
I do think that it would of course be ideal, and I’d very much like for the family to lend their opinion on who’s who. They likely have more pictures of many in (and those absent from) the group, and at least some of those photos are bound to have names attached, whether by ink or memory. However, I also imagine that the poor folks have likely been inundated with all sorts of questions, requests, and more ever since that episode of Australian Story aired. It must be tiresome!
Thanks Jamie, I’ve just been going on the shape of the ear, it looked more rounded at the top as in the Keane’s ear shape compared to the pointed shape of Webb’s. But hey, your argument and presentation is compelling enough for me to switch and go with the Webb’s. Do we know where Norman and Charles went to school, or where they lived? I haven’t really looked into them, to be honest, but might start looking in Trove for a bit of info on them, could lead to identifying the fellow in the front 🙂 Good on ya. Cheers
Jo,
I think if one person makes contact – perhaps a letter they may respond.
In one case I tracked down a French Magistrate and contacted him via his new high-powered job. First of all he was shocked he had been traced and I was able to get through the system via a back door. It exposed a vulnerability. But in the end, he couldn’t help me (or chose not to). But at least he replied.
@Kara van Farque…Yep why not? Three cheers for King Charles…RAY…Ray…Ray
poppins:
Yes, if he were a Keane then I would expect the top half of that left ear (the one to our right) to protrude more outward, rather than narrowing inward as much as it does. Going by ear alone, I think there’s definitely too much taper for it to be Jack, and while Leo’s left looks a bit more pointed up top overall, if it were him then I’d still expect the boy’s ear to appear more rounded out up there than it does, especially when matching for rotation…
Imagine turning Adult Leo’s head a bit more to his right, as the lad’s is, and how his left ear would compare then. Now, try doing the same with the Webbs and see what you think. Turning the head that way would round out the outline of each fellow’s ear, since we’d be viewing more of its plane. Without matching for angle of view, the boy’s left ear might possibly appear rounder up top than the Webbs’, sure, but it’s not quite as round (and again, nor as protrusive) as the Keanes’. And as just covered, if the lad were a Keane then that upper outline should be just as round or even rounder than we see in their grown-up pictures, given the way he’s turned.
I hope my attempt at an explanation makes sense! Praise be to the pinnae. The Webbs’ military records seem to put their father down as living on Main Rd in Eltham, though I’m not sure if that’s where they grew up. Both of the boys were born in or near Camperdown.
@Jamie,
Leo’s left ear (on our right) looks rounded as an older guy. Though Remini improved it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HqsXkkYD4PVG2qYtjyq6eS0ZiuBn4FdL/view?usp=sharing
It would not surpise me in the least if it proves that there be no Keane family reprentation in the group photo, with possible exception of Freda. Reasons being primarily due to the deep ecological division between Papists on the Keane side and Lutheran protestant ancestral roots of the German Webb/Weber camp. Not to mention ‘Grandad’ Richard’s Masonic Lodge instilled distrust of all Catholics like Freda’s husband Gerald Keane and his brand of faith. I note that sometime after his first wife’s passing even Russell Webb crossed the line to Join with Freda’s mob which may not have impressed younger brothers Roy & Carl Webb or indeed the staid old couple.
How are we all going with digesting Stuart Webb’s naming of individuals in the phamily photo?
Not overly excited by Stuart’s incomplete nominations or year of the shooting which can’t be right but, does anbody really give a mouses bottom any longer. Best of luck any how sailor man.
@ Poppins found Hickey (Herbert Henry) Taylor – born February 1900, in Perth, stage manager and actor with JC Williamson. Gould League Lover of Birds badge due for sure!
Jo: pretty unimpressive service life, two months in Blackboy Camp from inlistment to discharge a month before the war ended in 1918, part of it in hospital and an AWOL charge too…is he your badge winning JCW man; if so how did Stuey come by the Paradise cum Perth based farmer boy Hickey Taylor if it’s not impolite to ask.
not at all impressed by the new photo identification not entirely sure why but Jerry Keane was ided as the sneering protestant look man does not sit well with the Gerard Keane that toured with the Borovansky ballet company. Do we have at least one other photo of Russel Richard Webb?
@ JS – Hickey Taylor’s name is apparently written on the back of the photo, along with a few others. Anyway, your pick for Leslie Scott’ (along with Poppins & Steve) seems to be on the money & one that Stuart didn’t already have, it looks like you’ve been of service cobber! I’m not going to comment on an 18 year old’s 1918 WWI service record, he probably knew people who never returned…
Jo: whether it means much or not, Hickey was actually born in Paradise S.A. and not Perth. His father was possibly Herb H. Taylor of Burra and his wife Edith. As for his having known people [sic] who never returned from the war, he would not have been alone on that score, so it becomes rather a moot point. Fact is he never went to war and as for Paradise we can only hope for his sake that he eventually made it back there. The S.A factor needs looking into further you’ll agree and particularly his birth place which has come up in the Webb threads before.
Great research Jo, I agree he’d have to be the fella behind Eliza, super interesting. Hickey’s service record is a bit different, hey, he ran away from hospital quite a few times, hee hee.
Thanks to Stuart W we now know that Gerald Keane isn’t in the family photo …. we need a pic of him, oh boy. And the little tot is Gwen not Norma, the school boy is Leo, and Amy is next to Eliza, Emma Keane next to her. The fella we thought was Gerald is Norman M. The street sign looks a lot clearer in Stuart’s photo, but just can’t quite make it out.
Jo: my NAA ref. for Pte. Henry Herbert Taylor born Feb. 1900 isn’t likely to pan out re Stuart’s Hickey Taylor who had a part in J.C. Williamsons Merry Widow at His Majesties in Melbourne 1943. Hope yours works out better!
@ Poppins
Henry Herbert (Hickey) Taylor was only 59 when he died in 1962 (retired actor, South Yarra). He was unmarried. It looks as though there was a coroner’s inquest (see PROV notes for probate and body card).
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=1930860&isAv=N
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?keywords=henry%20herbert%20taylor&iud=true
According to a note on the back of the photograph (via Stuart Webb) the young man behind Eliza may be:
Henry Herbert (Hickey) Taylor, born 1903, Hobart, Tasmania to James and Isabella Taylor
Stage Manager for JC Williamson
https://collections.artscentremelbourne.com.au/#view=lightbox&id=a37f&all-fields=Hickey%20taylor
Also actor:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230336646?searchTerm=hickey%20taylor&fbclid=IwAR3SGi5GZ2D4tFgLGXH7R-OIQzttIxq24VcJsB1y5a0WW89POZTW0WmfBjQ
He lived at 56 Surrey Road South Yarra (multiple electoral roll listings through the 1930s and 40s) and died aged 59, unmarried, at South Yarra, his occupation at the time of his death is listed as retired actor.
There is a PROV listing for his probate and also a coroner’s body card:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?keywords=henry%20herbert%20taylor&iud=true
NB: JS – the NAA WWI listing is for another Henry Herbert Taylor, not Hickey.
Hickey Taylor had been with JC Williamson since at least 1925:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229728449?searchTerm=Hickey%20taylor
Hickey Taylor was also a 1930s Melbourne drag performer. See p66
http://queerarchives.org.au/app/uploads/2021/02/Catalog-Oral-Histories-by-Subject.pdf
Jo
No fair there Jo but, a clever dodge and that gets you the Tassie Tiger ‘cunning as a she wolf’ badge for your stealth in getting one over on the punters. Funny thing I’d never heard of Hickey Taylor til yesterday and don’t know how Henry Herbert sans Herbert Henry managed to get in the pic…I’ll tempt fate and go for a roughy in originally named Lurch.
Wonder if Hickey was good mates with Carl along with Gerald, and was he in Adelaide in November ’48? The plot thickens.
In the show “Yes Madam” 1936 he’s the third star listed, a character named Scoffin, but haven’t found a program for that. Would be good to get a clear photo of him.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-558059323/view?sectionId=nla.obj-578942323&searchTerm=hickey+taylor&partId=nla.obj-
PS: Jo, that’s interesting, another one from the family photo gone too soon – I’ll go to Prov Vic at some point soon and find out the reason for Hickey’s untimely demise.
Lurch: sorry not you, nor Lurch from the Adams family, I meant ‘Thing’ with the pork pie hat and two sleeve buttons sitting alongside Danny Martin I think.
Possible clue in dating the Webb family ? Maybe this has already been looked at but if not see in the latest version of the Webb family image published on the excellent TBT site by the old hippy himself the format is wider than seen in previous versions of this image I have seen.
In this latest image on the left of screen there looks to be (possibly ) a street sign diagonally behind the group. It is however difficult to determine the name on said sign.
So if this is a street sign and the name can be determined then just maybe there could be a way to cross reference dates , ie when subdivisions were made and find a potential time frame and date this photo or at least eliminate a decade.
@ Dude – Stuart Webb says it’s too indistinct & enlarging it makes it worse! What a pity!
https://www.ausstage.edu.au/pages/contributor/414634
@ Poppins- Hickey Taylor does seem to be involved in a run of Adelaide shows between 1947 & 1950! We need more information on show runs though…
I am so happy that Stuart was able to sort out the names – almost blew my top when the Cochrane lady said that Russel was Carl….i mean with that hair line no way in hell. Daniel M and Normie M are spot on as i can see the family resemblance, i was about to say that the Webbs sure have a type- their husbands look like brothers…
.in this case .We can also only assume that is was Gerald taking the photo.
the lady sitting next to Richard August Webb might be his sister?
I also have suspicion that if the Keanes were there then i can imagine Gerald Keane’s brother could be among them , either the bloke in the bowler hat or the one behind Emma Keane
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3079757795/view
Hickey Taylor was the stage manager for the Adelaide season of Under the Counter.
https://www.ausstage.edu.au/pages/event/88954
Phil Jay of the Kiwi Revue was in the cast, with Hickey Taylor, of the 1947 Adelaide production of The Girlfriend – perhaps a source for the ROK?
just out out curiousity who is Henry Herbert (Hickey) Taylor to the Webbs being a family photo and all. Being of similar age to Carl that would most likely be him near Eliza……could they have hung out? the guy above Gladys to me is most certainly Leslie.
H’mm, could the photo have been taken at a JC Williamson Theatrical Employees Picnic at Fairfield in January1927 …. take your family along to those events?
“JC Williamson Ltd employees will hold a picnic at Fairfield on Sunday. Principals and many members of the Cobra, White Cargo, Gilbert and Sullivan and Iolanthe companies will be present.” Could be worth looking at some old Fairfield scenery hey.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-562502928/view?sectionId=nla.obj-576831949&searchTerm=jc+williamson+picnic&partId=nla.obj-562530219#page/n19/mode/1up/search/jc+williamson+picnic
Peterb
Seems you’re Keane to recommend a method for photographic enhancement developed in Gordon Cramer’s own lab using a simple solution of Tahitian limes and Bon Ami amonia bleach. Properties maybe identical with a scalp tonic from China that is on the market making similar claims, derived from Finasteride and marketed as Rabbit brand hare [sic] restorer, which our moderator may be familiar with. Somewhat surprising is that thedud’s twenty five year experience in the photographic field has achieved no success in raising Werribee dump on a white signpost. Shades of Bob Cowan what?
Dude747, it does look like a street sign, but now seeing it in this photo it doesn’t appear to be on your standard corner for a street sign …. h’mm, so maybe it’s a sign giving directions, “toilets this way” or “cafe that way”, some such thing, per chance? Also note the upper bracket on the pole holding rounded light globes, three globes maybe ….
Colonel f……n Sanders if I had an original print or better still a negative then maybe I could help but I don’t you cantankerous cretin but given all I’ve got in front of me is what looks to be a 10th generation copy (like the video you got of Elle Mchersons sister back in the day) there’s not a lot I can do to enhance the image.
Poppins I know what you are saying and I have considered similar or maybe the group is to the right of a T junction with the sign pointing in the opposite direction of the group. Not much help but something.
There is a lot you can do to clarify old photos these day. I would suggest leaving it to the professionals and Derek Abbot team as they have more resources available and probably access to the original photo.
I’m not entirely sure why, but to me the sign and hedge have the vibe of the Colac Botanical Gardens, the lake would be over the hedge & the sign could be giving directions to to tea rooms, the band room by the lake or the lake. This could make sense in terms of who’s present & where they are living in about 1925:
Emma Keane – Camperdown (my 1935 Sands & Mac Directory has her as a fishmonger)
The Martins – Geelong family
Russell & Amy Webb – Geelong
The Keanes – Footscray
The Webbs – Oakleigh
The Scotts – Camperdown family living in Essendon area
Hickey Taylor – South Yarra
What’s interesting too is that the roads to Beeac, where Dorothy lived, run between Colac (nearest town) & Ballarat.
Thedud
Tut tut dud watch the language there are ladies present. Just a few days ago you were singing my praises albeit on a false premise due your failure to get my drift. Now that you’re back into slagging I feel a lot more relaxed. Your Greek bearing gifts style of arse licking might work with PB and now Gordon Cramer but, most CM punters can see through your CON and are not impressed.
Jo…I’m still fairly certain that the sign is pointing west. The crew are facing north, and the photographer is facing south. I can’t think of any way that the sun would be pelting in at that angle…i.e. late afternoon. They could be looking east, but that would mean middle of the day and surely they would be cold in polo shirts.
To me the sign’s first word is Wilson, Hampton or Victory. But the seconds word looks like shed or dev. Street designations were very much vanilla flavoured back then…street, road, avenue, parade and grove. None of this mews stuff.
The sign also seems to be reaffirming a direction to something more so than a street, and how is it looking like a 2023 street sign?
@Lurch – what if it’s Dve (Drive) or Bvd (Boulevard) (perhaps although both of them seem a bit recent) – maybe Ave?
Whilst I’m still going with Weribee dump or Tip which suits the rural location, it could be anything ie., a mid thirties Griffith Bros Teas direction pointer and mileage sign which once proliferated highways, byways and railways all over. I’ve got a half frame pic of one in the Libyan desert from 1942 mit sign ‘9000 miles to Griffith Bros Teas’. This is a really interesting diversion I’m sure punters must be stoked on this totally irrellevant new direction we’ve taken.
Colonel…..n Sanders any delusion you’ve had the yours truly ever sung your praises is clearly a magic mushroom flash back old boy but if it makes you feel good Colonel then far be it from me to mess with your delirium.
I tell you what is sad to see colonel … the fact that you interpret any polite exchange between contributors as “ass licking”. Very sad colonel.
See matey sometimes in the adult world (obviously not yours) normal folk actually interact, exchange pleasantries, even manners and stuff. Clearly this type of interaction is all “greek” to you but I just thought Id give you an idea of what goes on amongst the grown ups.
Anyhoo keep doing you colonel……… now cmon give us a little bit of that nasty trolly stuff that makes you feels good. There’s a good lad.
ive looked but cant find anything on Norman M……also comparing the cheeks of Leo and the man with the hat , i see similarities. I still think it is Gerald’s bro who suffered an accident in childhood aswell. He is a ig man compared to the others at least 1.90m which makes me think how big was Jerry…….thinking back how he survived fr while under the collapsed stage door…..
I reckon Hickey Taylor might be our adelaide link
Colonel f……n Sanders , just in case you weren’t aware this thread is called “dating the Webb family photo ”
The actual location of the image has been a subject of some conjecture since it was published and I would have thought and a street sign could be a decent indicator of the location wouldn’t you say?
If the location can be determined then other possibilities open up in term of cross referencing information which could narrow down the actual date. Given Ive heard people date it as early as 1920 and as late as 1938 .
Sorry if the attention was not on you and your many many hundreds of posts totalling some 72,000 words just in the last few weeks NONE OF WHICH has any value whatsoever other than to make you feel like a big man.
Thedud: if you can see fit to enlist a new interpreter and translate your message I’ll get back to you with my usual considerate retort. Not to-day though dud, got to do a quick adjustment to my bike after this morning’s hard run, then get get back out on the river track and back to the camp boozer for the regular Friday happy hour drinky poos.
Pb: at long last you’ve been fortunate to land a fish with a bit of nouse for a change in @ shabby4463ec170f70f, though with a monicker like that I’m sort of glad he’s your’n. Looking forward to seeing more of ‘Shabbas’, just the answer for a brighter, long overdue Tbt come back and the real deal SM. PS: you be on a talent drive prio easing out Tbt’s dead wood duds, most sadly long past their prime in terms of input initiatives and loyalty, had any of these qualities been present to start with.
My considered view as a world renowned translator of multi- worded though relatively innocuous contributions to a website of less than strictly observed moderation with regard to malevolent comment is that said contributor be advised to gather to himself the necessary qualifications for truth and brevity which we hope might convince him to travel further afield, inasmuch as we advise he wanders elsewhere from this comfy burrow and engage with a more mature audience …
Dud…just a short word or two in response to yours of 12.58 on this thread even date where in your opening address to Colonel…..n Sanders you inferred that “any delusion you’ve had that yours truly ever sung your praises is clearly a magic mushroom flashback……etc. So here you go dud, anothery of your gems dated April 4 just gone on the Jim Beaumont thread, and is detailed as follows “Holy Shit ! When the Colonel is the voice of reason you start to wonder whether you’ve just awoken from a very long Coma.” The appropriate retort within reason has to be “Arise ye dud your goose appears to be is cooked”!!!
ok it has been noticed that in the photo doris doesnt apear to be pregnant but most expectant mothers noticeably have that arm position where they cradle their belly. Notice Doris’s arm position.
That hedge looks like it’s been the victim of topiary, h’mm, I’m starting to wonder if this photo was taken at a racecourse ….. Flemington, Moonee Valley or a country one, worth checking it out I reckon.
Now we know it’s Leo in the school uniform, confirmed by Stuart, that’s a pretty good clue, hey, for dating photograph. He was at St Monica’s School, Wingfield Street, Footscray 1927 to 1928. Christian Bros 1928 to ’30. Maybe St Brigid’s North Fitzroy pre 1927 ?? as his brother Jack mentions that one in his NAA documents. Why is Leo in a school/Catholic uniform …. school carnival, Catholic event …….
PB: and I always assumed “note caps” to be the prerogative of disreputable accountants, only applicable to duplicate ledgers and such. So thanks for your acquiescence of greater versatility in application to humdrum idioms for GP dialogue, I’ll now be more comfortable following your lead ie., diverting from the verbal dihorea most associated with my past on line ramblings and adopt your most insincere and much less refined style of communication henceforth.
Must say that I can’t go along with Gordon Cramer’s choice of a concrete sign post though his plug for excellent reproduction on Peteb’s site is not in doubt. From a casual observation of the pole itself I see what appears to be straight edge machine shaping marks most indicative of log processing tooling that was introduced in the late twenties. No arguments with Cramer’s 30’s photo dating inititive then, which was my own early prediction of which I remain confident. In consequence of Stuart Webb’s latest offering, some astute punters, Keane to alter their date forward to accommodate better reasoning strategies have now gone back and rejoined the 1925 status quo, more fool them in my opinion for it’s all become a moot point imo. How so? well for starters, Jim Durham’s snap of the original SM and Paul Lawson’s bust subject can be distinguished by a number of quite stark disimilarities noted by some astute observers e.g., GC. Then there’s the ultra clean skin description given by Paul and Dr. Dwyer which does not equate to a man of Carl Webb’s known upbringing including youthful contact sport and other injury prone activities such as wilderness camping and stable work for his dad’s bakery etc., Not to mention the hard grind of working life as a fitter turner in the electrical trades where injuries entailing burns and scaring would be common place on the workshop floor. In that there were no discernable signs as such evidenced upon close scrutiny associated with post mortem examinations, apart from small vaccination scars (rural upbringing) a raised mole? and recent scratches between the knuckles, so how could the slab client be confused with the bloke from Sth Yarra. Truth is he wasn’t, if we care to go back to historical accounts in which nobody came forward to identify him as my missing son, brother, uncle, in-law, bosom buddy or workmate Carl Webb.
End of story.
A businessman advertises for an accountant, when this fellow turns up for his interview he’s only asked one question: what does $2 plus $2 make?
A moment’s pause.
Then the measured response.
‘Whatever you want it to be.”
Worked for me.
Poppins
“Now we know it’s Leo in the school uniform, confirmed by Stuart” so I guess that be good enough proof and now we must all bow to his better knowledge right? For your information, Stuart is an integral part of Derek Abbott’s Carl Webb’s true identity cream team, and even if not on salary must nevertheless be considered a belligerent entity opposed to the best interests of our loyal? band of brothers and sisters at CM. As such the man, to those of us who don’t know him, cannot to be trusted in his claimed knowedge and on line assertions thereof pertaining long gone familial identities.
JS (nose caps)
Masterful Sanders and Just what the Doctor ordered. Knew I could depend on your rebel streak and just cause attitude. Keep firing in Abbott’s direction and If ever I’ve uttered a harsh word about you, I’m eternally sorry for it now…
@ Johnno – I spoke to Stuart today. At the end of the day this is his family and there is more to them and their stories than we piece together on these forums. Stuart has only recently been attached to this case and in our brief telephone conversation I found him to be an intelligent and articulate man. I wish I could say that about all of the men who have something to say on this case! I’ve tried to be civil with you but I think your band may be an out of tune solo act colonel!
Colonel F……n Sanders ! when a person exclaims complete shock that a particular individual is the voice of reason in a discussion its an ironical comment not a singing of said individuals praises.
For example if someone where to say ” wow when Charles Manson is the voice of reason “,,,,,,,,,,,,, etc etc. You see thats not a compliment for Charles Manson. You get what Im saying Colonel????
Do you want me to get the chalk board and crayons out? draw you a picture?
Goose !!!
Jo, with the greatest respect, perhaps if you might be fortunate enough to chat with Stuart again you could ask him to plunder his archives for just a couple of pics of Charles Richard and pop them up online … I’ve asked the same question on DA’s FB site a few days ago but as of yet, nothing.
Jo: dealing with the enemy has always been abhorrent to me personally and so to those who prefer to deal in known facts and uphold moral standards essential to truth seeking accordingly. This as opposed to some others who, by their own more liberal standards of integrity may seek to delve in secret associations for obtaining greater advantages. I make no apologies for using blunt negative opinions at times but, reserve the right to state my case for better or for worse. I certainly don’t deny any person their own God given right to express contrary views on any subject as they see fit, whether or not they be prepared to allow me the same entitlement.
@ PB – I’m not in the business of harassing the Webbs, I imagine this is all very strange for them, perhaps often sad. There are new photos of Amy Webb & Leo Keane up on the Facebook page, so perhaps others will be shared.
dud: in your suggesting that monster Charles Manson be the voice of reason is an insult to norms of human morality and you are to be condemed for taking such liberties with respect to decency. Only a low life would dare make such a claim.
hi Jo i missed the 1940s Moonee Ponds soldiers’ parade clip put up by Poppins . I s there a link somewhere?
I have to say I’m a bit nonplussed about Stuart Webb’s recent identifications of the people on the group photo on Facebook. Who is Normie M? – I didn’t know Daniel Martin had a brother Norman. In the ABC doc however Stuart says that this person was probably Gerald Keane. From the transcript David Morgan provided:
“There’s also a larger family gathering with all of the Webb family as it was back then. A fantastic family day, they’re all smiling, Charles in particular is playing some kind of prank on who we think is Gerald Keane.”
Also Amy Tomkinson looks very young, even if the photo is from 1925.
I note that my ol’ mate John Sanders doesn’t seem to realise that @shabby4463ec170f70f is actually Peter Bowes’ new pal Sharon “Cocksure” Cochran, who has a new Facebook site called ‘The Real Charles Webb’, to which Bowes appears to be the only contributor.
Keep up soldier! By the way I did once compare CM contributors to a family – the Manson Family. I called it a “virtual Spahn Ranch”. Boom Boom!
Amy would have been 28/29 in the photo which looks about right – maybe she had a childlike nature.
i cant find anything about Norman /Norm/Normie M was Normie a nickname for one of Daniels brothers?- a bit f a head scratcher that one
Still looking for a photo of Leslie Scott – Essendon Historical society might have one as he was most official events including the Mayoral balls
so this family gathering was when Carl met Hickey
Enjoying the commentary – thanks all.
@steveHurwood – yep, I got that one wrong initially. But when the facts change I generally change my mind. I uncovered another album which my Auntie had with a bunch of my grandfathers pictures. It had an original of the group photo with names on the back. Those names included Normie Martin and Hickey Taylor. It also had photos of Gerald Keane in Tasmania – he is really tall, very distinctive and not in the photo.
I’ve got about 6 photos of Amy Tomkinson. I lived with my grandparents for a year and we had her photo framed on the wall so she is very familiar to me. So unless my grandpa misidentified his mum I’m pretty confident on that one.
And while I’m here – Peter Bowes – your theory that the Charlie in the photo is my grandpas brother charlie (and not my grandpas uncle) is pretty out there. Have a look at the latest photos on facebook that confirm the date. My uncle Charlie (I know, he’s not my uncle but I knew him growing up and everyone is your uncle then) would have been 6 years old and he looks way different. I’ll entertain valid theories but that is a bit out there to be honest and I’m not sure a photo would go any way to convince you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oKybqbrKKU8
Em – here’s the footage that Poppins found, featuring Leslie Scott at a soldier’s parade (swatting a fly with his good arm!).
Stuart Webb has posted another photo of Amy on Facebook (Identifying the Somerton Man)
Jo: what hath God wrought, now with Sharon deciding to enter the already over heated SM market with ‘The Real Charles Webb’ on face book you say. Sort of leaves me out on a limb, not having direct access to most of that style of non communication, still I don’t mind admitting that I didn’t twig to the Shabby4463? connection. She sounds like a pleasant enough lass but struth she’s pretty sure of herself and she’s not going to be too happy with her multiple family gathering photo score. if that’s at all likely to come to fruition.
@john sanders, I think I’m the cocksure you refere to. Trust me I neither have a cock nor am I sure hence the reason I jumped on two sites to have my doubts layed to rest. As stated I’m only three weeks into this story as my time is full raising children, grandchildren and foster children. When my grandson got me to listen to a spotify story on the Somerton Man and we searched the story we were both shocked at the fresh faced happy young man surrounded by family, ending up taking his own life on the beach. A few more searches took us to questions in relation to the image. As an ABC story from December last year stated that the group photo was ” the Webb family photo” and that only 4 people could be identified by cross checking the smaller photo taken the same day we, my grandkids and I thought we could use know birthdates to find ages relevant to each year from 1925 to 1935 as the fashions seemed to indicate the group photo had been taken around then. Once we did that we found other known images and made a guess at 1933 and the corresponding family verified images. If the news article had not suggested ” Webb family” we wouldn’t have thought it showed the Webb family, ie mum, dad, adult children, their husbands, wives and/ or children. Yes it’s my FB page as when Peter asked me to share I couldn’t post photos so created a page to share my concerns. I had contacted Stuart privately first and he explained that due to Amy’s passing and the Charlie named photo the correct Charlie was indeed named. But I still keep finding inconsistencies. Looking at it logically with all respect to the Webb family it would not be the first time a family member had been mistaken for a close relative. Am I sure, no not in a heart beat, have all my doubts been answered? No. Do I think it matters that someone who died alone, went unclaimed by his family for 70 years not have his correct image? Yes. So maybe instead of name calling ” cocksure”, post me some facts on ears, dates, images etc and convince me. 🤔
So what you reckon happened on 8th July Peteb any ‘idears’. I’ll check my source and get back to you soon as I hear sumit…Nice little write up on Len Brown’s being taken off the case. Reminds me of your queery to CM last week to which I was able to provide the very same answers you’ve you’ve just posted. No need for a heads up mate I know how you are about trivial stuff like that.
Stewart, thanks for getting back .. though I’d rather you did it closer to home than this place as the hundreds of comments here are easily lost.
One question: the pic of Charlie, Roy and the old folks … why does Charlie @ 5’11” look to be the same height as Roy @ 5’08”?
To my eyes Charlie appears to be less than 6” further back than Roy in the shot as he has his arms around the old lad’ shoulders and Roy is almost touching the little lady’s shoulder.
Not only that but if Roy was standing upright he would appear even taller than Charlie.
To date nobody has provided a believable explanation for this … hoping you can.
Stuart: I’ts a pleasure to finally have you on board our derelict old cipermysteries tub shipmate, if that be appropriate. Also and many thanks for your insight into familial connections which are most enlightening. I can’t agree with you on one very important aspect in your identification of Amy for I’m almost certain that the lady you refer to is in fact Dorris Martin with her mother sitting to her left. I also suggest that husband Dan is the fellow sitting behind Eliza Webb and Henry Hickey Taylor beside him but, I’ll bow to yout better knowledge if proven wrong. By the way I’ve been told that you are an ex pusser and if that be the case, a big thanks for your service and trust that you’ll be rembering old mates and others on the honour roll this coming Anzac Day which goes goes without saying..Lest We Forget.
Sharon: I’m pretty sure we’re going to get along fine so long as we both stick to the rules of engagement and you don’t play the misogynistic game with me as others do which be, so far from the truth it might frighten off a feller of lesser endurence. If you knew my own long held views on respect for all who deserve it especially in regards to gender equality you’d you’d have nothin to fear from an occasional lack of patience with fellow contributors. Like your good self I’m a devoted ‘partner’ to a pretty decent old sheila, a father of six, two of whom are still under my care, not to mention a niece and nephew at home with us. All but my niece still attending high school (son) and college (2), the rest nearing middle age and scattered far and wide though still in regular contact. All in all my mob seem to put up with this old man’s many failings including being cocksure of myself which has been known to put folks off some. One thing in which I have advantage over you is that I retain a good overall knowledge of all that has gone down during my sentence at CM and my long quest for answers hasn’t diminished measurably in all my time on board.
A big welcome to you Sharon and don’t forget I’m not only here to help, I’m also prepared to listen to reason. Good luck mate, you’re gonna need it with this mob you can be assured.
@Stuart Webb
Thanks for your clarifications. I wasn’t questioning your identification of Normie M, but given Charlie’s “prank” with the hand gesture I was intrigued that the person who was the “victim” was someone of whom none of us had been aware. Given Charlie’s close relationship with Gerald Keane it seemed to fit so well, especially with Freda in front of him.
According to Ancestry.com Daniel Martin’s parents, Laurence Joseph (Jesse) and Charlotte Emma had five children:
Daniel William Martin
1894 – 1956
John Peter Martin
1900 – 1974
Lawrence Joseph Martin
1896 – 1967
Bernard Patrick Martin
1898 – 1965
Margaret Philomena Martin
1893 – 1983
Do you have any more info on Normie? Obviously Charlie is on very good terms with him.
Good luck with your search for more info about your ancestors. Don’t let the conspiracy theorists get you down!
Hello Stuart. Great to have you on this discussion.
Im interested in your thoughts on the fact that in the group of four shot of Charlie and Roy with their parents there appears to be no difference in head height which contradicts the data which has Roy purportedly several inches shorter than Charlie based on Charlies measurements post mortem and Roys enlistment data.
Can anyone spot Leo in any of these photos; he would have been around 8? Was he at St Monica’s Footscray in 1923? I can see some boys wearing similar socks to Leo’s in the family photo. Whoops, I think the St Brigid’s reference in Jack’s NAA file was just where a scholarship examination was conducted.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171246134?searchTerm=footscray%20st%20monica%27s
Steve Hardwood
Cripes hadn’t been for you, the erronous part of my sly renewed attempt to revitalise my early Daniel Martin wouln’t have come to me. He is sitting there alongside his equally diminutive pal Thing @ Hickey Taylor whom I picked in spite of my caution. My blunder which nobody was likely to pick up, was in identifying the old lady alongside Dan’s wife Doris (Dot) as her mother (Eliza) whereas in fact it be Mrs. Martin Snr. (Charlotte) a widow who was then around 70 which agrees with my calculations. Lotte died eight years after the group photo was taken by my best reckoning which only Sharon comes close to, it’s far removed from Stuart Webb’s firm 1925 stance, due ostensibly to Gt. Gt. Grand mother Amy’s assumed presence and that’s quite understandable.
Way off thread I know but, just to put things into some perspective on doubts re Carl Webb the man being identical with the Beach body of 1948. It be known from a Victorian Police gazette of 1911 that as an eighteen year old child maintanance avoider, his brother Ronald Richard Webb was a diminutive runt no taller than 5′ 3″ or so. From photos supplied by Stuart and other sources, the three Webb sisters were also short, Dot Webb in particular who, when standing alongside her 5′ 6″ husband Daniel Martin, appears to be well shy of five foot. Admittedly brother Roy was a more respectable 5′ 8″ going by his inlistment photo but, that still doesn’t bode well for a 5′ 11″ mortuary cavader having any claims to membership of family of so many shorties including mum & dad without more justification than what we have. So says colonel blimp the reluctant skeptic.
Poppins:
Interesting find. The one that most jumps out to me as a possible match to the Webb gathering’s front-and-center boy (referring also to later photos of Leo to perhaps help connect the dots) is in the photo second from the top on the left-hand side. Within that picture, he’s the very first one in the back row.
Leo has been tricky for me as of all the photos out there that are supposedly of him, in a couple of them he looks very different from how he appears in some of the others. Almost like they are two separate people! What a difference age, angles, lighting, and a change of expression can make.
My money is still on Jack as the fellow behind Eliza, which seems to have been Stuart Webb’s initial guess as well so that’s reassuring! Having seen the additional pics of Hickey Taylor (a proposed other possible ID) that Jo was kind enough to share, I am confident that that particular chap in the family picture at least probably isn’t Taylor. It could be someone else we’ve not yet considered but I mean, just compare that boy’s smile to John Russell Keane’s in uniform!
Not John Russel Keane….different build, hair and face. Still puzzled about the guy behind Gladys and still pretty sure Gerald’s brother is among them
Peteb: doesn’t look like my Russell Richard correction past muster. Don’t know why but, bearing in mind he’s most frequently being identified with the big bleached blondie next to ‘Carl’ in the group shot frame. If that be true then how come when the fuzz were on Russell’s case about not paying maintainance for the McWhatsit lad, before getting hitched to Amy, they described him as being “five three or four and inclined to be small”. Really, coulda fooled me, puting that alongside your own Charles/Roy doubts and we seem to be in need of more clarification than either Stuart, Derek or indeed Nick are apt to share with us if such knowledge be known to any of them…for reasons that might be better left unsaid at this point in time.
Em:
It has been my observation that puberty can affect those three things quite drastically, particularly in males. Sometimes a boy with quite a slim face will grow to have a rather broad one. My partner, for example, has one of the squarest heads I’ve ever seen and his face was similarly slight up until his mid-teens. One can recognize boyhood photos as still being of him by his eyes, nose (which did change a bit upon adolescence but not by much), mouth, and their placement relative to each other; his face just grew outward around those features. That is what I believe I see here, and in this instance (that is, if it is JRK) there isn’t nearly as big a change in bulk from lad to man as in the actual case I’ve just referenced, so it’s definitely possible. If it’s not Jack, then I would guess him to be a close or very resemblant relative of his.
Thank you for the opportunity to brag about my old man’s magnificent jawline.
@ Dude, Pete and co, ad nauseum – PARALLAX EFFECT!! Roy is standing almost beside his parents and Charlie is behind them, the photo is taken with a 1920s concertina or box camera, it would be difficult to convey true depth of field… Please go and discuss the fixated upon three inches with a physics teacher…!
Im with you on that #Jo and well on record as such. Im in no doubt whatsoever that multiple factors account for this height anomaly however I was keen to hear Stewarts response on the matter.
@Jo “Desert Song trio Scott, Hicky (sic), Roy”
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148733808
This was actually the first one I stumbled across…
Jo, you seem to be the expert, how far behind Roy would you have Charlie, an inch, a couple of inches, a foot? And given that Roy is slightly stooping, do you think it would make any difference in his height if he stood as upright as Charlie?
And just one more thing, could you please define what you understand parallax error to mean, I don’t have a problem with it, after all I did rather well at Physics.
I’m betting, Dude old boy, that you have no idea what it is you are agreeing with here.
Thanks @John sanders, I’m trying to read as many posts as possible but sounds like you have questions as who is who too? The man next to circled Charlie on the group photo, do you know how he was identified as Russell? Wish you did FB cause I’ve been posting up photos and newspaper things I’m finding cause a lot of things aren’t matching with the group photo being 1925, vintage clothing is a bit of a hobby for me and the women’s dresses, hat with the turned back brim, ruffled front on the ladies bodice, wide collar shirts on the men are all suggesting mid 1930? I also found it strange that Russell and Amy have been identified in the photo but not their 3 children who would have been 7, 6 and 3 ?
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100091650982616&mibextid=ZbWKwL
I’ve been keeping track of my thoughts and finds on a Facebook page, it seems that identifying Charlie correctly is dependent on when the group photo was taken, who is in the group photo and how all the other factors such as age gaps, fashions etc tie together.
Be interested to see what others think as many here have lots of other facts like heights and physical descriptions.
Jamie S, great find, he does look very similar to Leo. I think the guy behind Eliza does look very similar to the Hickey photo though. Here they are side by side …. still not very clear though.
https://imgur.com/C0DTSHP
Peteb: here’s my solution to the prevailing ‘angle of the dangle’ conundrum and inherent doubts on Jo’s 20s baby brownie folding box plus her not being able to pick the difference t’wixt parallax error and paranoid schizophrenic dilusions. To paraphrase words of Coroner Cleland, ” the problem of …. would simply go away if &c……”. Indeed, IF Dr. Barb Dwyer’s “tallish” beach body and your blond in Dick’s 70th birthday picture of ’36, believed by most punters to be Carl or Charles/Charlie Webb, were found not to be one with each other in the final analysis.
@ Milongal
Thanks for the photo! I’d say Hickey is the first man on the left.
Poppins: I’m quite confident that your fair haired bloke is more likely to be Dan Martin (how many times does it take) than Hickey Taylor who’s jet black locks do not fit in any way you like to swap the pictures around. Sorry not trying to be cute.
Lol !! Crazy kids all riled up about my response to #Jo which has riled one or two punters. Specially your typically tasteless effort Colonel cantankerous.
My response was and is consistent with all my posts on this particular matter being issues to do with location and equipment.
My response to #Jo above says ” I am in no doubt that MULTIPLE FACTORS account for this height anomaly ”
The point of my agreement being MULTIPLE FACTORS !! could well account for the perceived height issue.
If anyone wishes to go off and do a masters on PARALLAX EFFECT be my guest but my position is clear. Unless they’re side by side barefoot on flat ground Parallax or anything else is just a potentially contributing factor.
What I was and am far more interested in is the opinion of Mr Webb not the petty bickering and selective reading/misreading of my post quite frankly.
Sharon: we stand alone it seems on the presence of mid thirties fashions which looks just like the immediate pre war family pics I recall. From the outset most punters here, especially the ladies, were to a person of a contrary opinion in that the evidence was more consistent with a style of dress depicting a mid twenties gathering. Could have fooled me, and whatsmore the general demeanor of those present is far too happy go lucky than the generally faked poses one is used to seeing in group photos of the not so roaring twenties.
…..I’ll stand corrected but, the typical Kodak black & wtite shiny chrome effect doesn’t sit well with me either, truth be known Sharon. What do you reckon?
poppins:
The image you’ve put beside Taylor is different from the one I’ve been referring to (from the family photo on this page)… has it been altered somehow? He appears more like Sean Penn (and less like either of our ID choices) than I’m used to.
Jo:
Looking particularly at the Whoopee photo of his that you’ve shared, I would say that Taylor is rather the middle fellow of milongal’s trio if that’s the gathering your pick refers to (it’s the 406th image in the collection for anyone else who has trouble finding it). He has quite a distinctive smile.
Sanders, have ye not heard of actors dying their hair and eyebrows for roles back in the day, more so those on the stage in theatrical productions? And I’m pretty sure Stuart can recognise his own relatives, come on, hey. We do need a clear portrait shot of Hickey though without make-up.
Jamie, haha, is a bit Sean Penn like 🙂 Need a clearer portrait shot.
Dude … Perhaps they are barefoot. After all, a bit of impromptu cricket during a picnic isn’t played wearing shoes, is it?
John I’m sticking with the 30’s . Just like today the average person on the street doesn’t dress like a runway model or look like they have just stepped out of the latest Target catalogue, it takes a while for the general public to adopt the latest fashions, Australia was always a few years behind what was being worn on the streets in America or England and country towns being behind cities. The hat is very interesting, in the 20’s most had no brim and were worn very tight, the women would have their hair cut very short and thinned out to create the helmet type look, no brim and worn deep over the eyes. Post 1930 the hairstyles changed from the sleek flat bob to a softer finger wave so hats became looser so as to not flatten the hair, they were worn with the brim turned back to show more of the face. Add the ruffled bodice and I’m sticking with 1933 for my estimate.
I thinking dating the photo and confirming who is in it is the only way to confirm that Charlie is the correct Charlie. The only reason the circled Charlie was thought to be Charlie Webb was because the original group photo was thought to show the Webb family therefore the unidentified Charlie was presumed to be one of the men in the family group photo, a week later when the named image was cross checked Charlie in the group photo was found. BUT if it’s not a family photo/ family gathering then Charlie could be any Charlie not necessarily Charlie Webb.
Maybe he was only a friend of Daniel’s brother or Mr Hickey? Maybe the Charlie we are all trying to find was standing off camera with Russell and Amy’s 3 young children who aren’t in the photo with their parents. More questions than answers at the moment.
Milongal or Jo, the image link on “Desert song trio, Scott, Hickey and Roy” that can’t be brother Roy born 1904, went to war in 1940 and died POW in 1943? The image reads Anna Pavlova arrives Sydney 1926. Is there another Roy? Sorry new to this 🙂
Milongal or Jo, the image link on “Desert song trio, Scott, Hickey and Roy” is that brother Roy ,born 1904, went to war in 1940 and died POW in 1943? The image reads Anna Pavlova arrives Sydney 1926. Is there another Roy? Sorry new to this 🙂
@ Steve Hurwood, re your comment about Daniel’s brother Normie M, was he missing from Ancestry.com ? The only other Normie could be Russell and Amy’s son Norman Frederick but that puts all the dates out of line again so is it Daniel’s brother and he’s just not listed on Ancestry?
Poppins: pretty sure my take on Hickey’s Taylor’s black locks was posted prior to mention of his part in the ‘Desert Song’, heavily made up and thus unidentifiable. Didn’t stop those who wanted to be part of the disclosure from contributing their own well spotted links. So there you go, whether it suits your purpose or not, the raven hair and port wine stain likely formed part of young Henry Herbert Taylor’s birth day attire. I do agree with you in that we certainly could do with a clearer au naturale portrait of Hickey, one that our patient moderator might consider worthy of puting up for ‘general exhibition’.
Here’s another possible family disappearance that hasn’t had much airplay apart from my one online discussion with one our our ladies, on where and when he died. Far as I know Charles Richard Webb vanished without a trace around 1955 (NAA ) and was never heard from again. Whether the following true story actually relates to him is unclear due to neither Police, family or newspapers having given any further details, far as I’m aware though it does suit Charlie’s as we knew him, thus he being a candidate worthy of consideration. Story goes that a man attended his usual place of work with a suburban trucking company in the early morn of 25 November 1955, loaded his lorry with 40 bags of flour for onward delivery to Port Melbourne. He left the yard at 9am accordingly and was never seen alive again. Despite an early missing truck & driver report being lodged by the man’s employer,
investigating police were never able to solve the case. Most frustrating to modern day sleuths desirous of obtaining fuller discovery details, nothing at all ever came to light after the disappearance….no name, age, description or place of residence.
@ JS – Angela at Family Search has a date of death for Charles Richard – 8 August 1995. I doubt she’d make this up. Maybe there were wee evils in the other poor man’s flour?
Barefoot after a family friendly cricket match I totally agree PB.
Its all just guesswork here with the photo but Im seeing all the Webb lads dressed in the those matching blousy white shirts suggesting a social game of cricket ? Tennis?
I see Roy has slipped his cardigan over his blousy white shirt suggesting to me that he has already played and either got bowled out or lost his singles match.
Charlie and Russ are cardigenless so probably still warm from playing/in a mid match break. So maybe Roy has put his shoes back on along with his cardigan giving him the extra 3 inches in the photo!!!
There you go !!!! Yes lots of ifs and maybes but WTF its better than anything the f…..n Colonel has dished out since the 11 pieces, of original recipe plus a large mountain dew for $9.90 deal.
I am not even sure why Russell is being considered as Charlie. the body of the SM has no resemblance what so ever to Russell in the family photo. it is quite annoying especially when family member who have many other photos and family account can prove to what they ided is correct!
Are there any photos available of Jack and Leo’s sister Gwen? I’m of the opinion that if one or both of her brothers are present in the photo, then she might be as well. It might also make sense for all the grandkids to be gathered together around Grandma. And though Stuart has said that the lady beside Eliza is Amy, she rather strikes me as a child given her small and very straight figure… no trace of a bosom at all as far as I can see despite what appears to be quite a fitted dress, and quite high and full cheeks for how slender she is. Also, compare the size of her hand to the woman’s next to her. Perhaps she’s just an adult with very small hands, or the other has very large ones, but I still can’t help but feel that I’m looking at a girl rather than a woman.
Though I think it would make good sense that it might be Gwen if it’s true that all of Gerald’s family is present (as Stuart has said), she isn’t the only other option: she and her cousin, Doris (Amy’s daughter), were born around the same time.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fzq94YVbHHM/SrFN1HH0znI/AAAAAAAAiSo/RQy2AOGLvT4/s1600-h/perspective_04.jpg
Not joking in the slightest when I say that within the family photo, I think Hickey Taylor is sat just behind the woman in the light hat. Posted my rationale to the Taylor page and tried to put it here too, but I think it was rejected as spam.
To keep it short, compare him to the trio photo (linked to from this page by milongal, where Hickey’s the one in the middle) and to his headshot in the Desert Song program (posted to the Taylor page by Thomas), and I think you might agree:
https://ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/12/Family-image.png
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148778522/view
https://digital.theatreheritage.org.au/pages/view.php?search=&k=&modal=&display=thumbs&order_by=resourceid&offset=480&per_page=240&archive=&sort=ASC&restypes=&recentdaylimit=&foredit=&noreload=true&access=&ref=515
@Sharon Cochrane
The Ancestry info seems to be backed up by the obits for Charlotte Martin (Daniel’s mother) – eg from The Age 27 Apr 1944:
“MARTIN. —On April 23, at her home, 4
Foulkes street, Alphington, Charlotte Amy,
widow of the late Laurence Joseph Martin,
and loving mother of Margaret P., Daniel
W., Laurence J., Bernard P., and John P.,
aged 84 years. —Requiescat in pace. (In-
terred privately, Eastern Cemetery, Geelong.)”
A while back I convinced myself that the photo was taken in 1928/29, the little girl being Daniel Martin’s daughter Norma, with the kid in front being Jack or Leo Keane. I was very surprised that Stuart said that Gerald Keane wasn’t in the photo. As I stated in my reply to him, given the close relationship between Charlie and the Keanes it made sense that the hand “prank” was on Gerald.
To be honest I can’t see any resemblance between the blond Charlie – who looks about 20 to me – in the family photos and the bloke in the Somerton Man photos, but some people seem to look different in every picture taken of them, especially those taken when they are dead, and to be honest my recognition skills ain’t the best.
I also originated the idea that the hand on “Emma K”‘s shoulder was Thing from the Addams Family, but the general consensus seems to be that the arm attached to that hand is in fact a knee belonging to the old codger behind. Spoilsports!
I’ve no idea who Normie M is. Perhaps Stuart will find some more info.
@ Jamie – a pretty compelling argument! I’m still with Hickey as the young Sean Penn character though, mainly because of age. I could imagine him being behind Amy in the shot – she had been a singer and performer in the Camperdown Entertainers. The older man behind Gladys does look like Hickey though! He is wearing an older style collarless shirt, which leads me to think he is older rather than younger. I wonder if he could be Mr Taylor senior? This would concur with Poppins idea of a JCWilliamson employees & family picnic. Maybe at a racecourse or race meeting?
I might be able to access old show books via the Victorian Arts Centre JCWilliamson Collection! It will be a while though before I have time to do this :/ https://collections.artscentremelbourne.com.au/#browse=enarratives.1998. Will work up a very specific access request…
PB & Jo: can’t be denied folks; the dud’s taste for arse licking is sure to beat the f…..n old Colonel’s finger lick’n good ‘leven secret herbs & spices KFC hands down. If only they still served up pope’s noses instead of crumby nuggets, he’d be in his element.
Jo: that’s right it was Angela posted the 1995 date which she later agreed had no firm foundation, as opposed to my 1955 alternate. Pity you didn’t take the time to check my NAA reference as Angela herself was likely to have done. That being a better choice than opting for a stale old ‘best of two weevils’ in the flour pun, for pleasure of getting a haha from the rest of the team at my expence. More fool you sweatheart!
@John Sanders, Jo,
nephew Charlie’s war records have him going in with fair hair and blue eyes but coming out with brown eyes and dark hair but I figured in was just a record keeping error?
@ Jamie – sorry, I was looking at the wrong Desert song photo – agree, our Hickey is definitely the man in the middle of the Desert Song trio picture (your middle link, above). I still think he’s the younger Sean Penn look alike in the Webb family photo – reasons over on the Hickey thread…
Novia Scottia, Brazil, Bristol… Cypherians are a great international cast!
@Em, Russell identified does look like the physical description on Derek’s university page. I’m thinking the information there was taken from police reports or autopsy report as it’s in relation to finding the Somerton Man. It says 5foot 11 inches or 180cm, mousy ginger hair worn brushed straight back with no parting. 75 to 80 kg , broad square shoulders, normal size 8 feet but unusually large hands. Attached rather than hanging ear lobes. Stuart has said it’s his great grandad but it’s fair to say he must have looked similar.
@John Sanders do you have a link to Russell’s not paying maintenance story that you mentioned above with his physical description? I thought Russell was Carl/ Charlie/ somerton man as his description fitted Derek’s university physical description of Somerton Man, height 180cm, mousy ginger hair worn straight back, broad shoulders, weight about 75kg etc.
Jo: so it was you, not Angela (tut tut) who I expressed doubts as to Charles Richard Webb’s ‘Family Search’ year of death, yours (?) being 1995 and mine, according to Repat. Dept. files, somewhere between 1950 and 1959. A few days later you came back and without need for the usual ‘I said – you said’ banter, you sided with my more reliable research, thus ending the subject…Not on your life my man, now that I’ve come up with a possible lead on Charlie’s demise for the record, our not so fair lady jumps in pokes fun about the missing “other poor man’s flour”. If you’d like Jo, I’m only too happy to share our earlier conversations with other punters so they can decide for themselves just who the evidence sipport. PS. As for the Tbt side show about your uncle Joe and his going AWOL during the “Malaysian Civil War”, sorry there wasn’t one mate. Unless you’re on about the communist terrorist uprising against British rule that history calls ‘The Malayan Emergency of 1948-60’. That it?
Hi all, I come here infrequently (sorry about that, I’m kinda busy) but just a few things. There are things that I’m confident of, and things I’m not confident of. The ones I’m confident of are the people that were directly in my family or my grandparents knew well. I lived with them for a while and we had photos of Russell Richard Webb (my grandpas Dad) and Amy Tomkinson on the wall. I’ve got a fair few photos of them. My grandpa knew who his parents were.
The photo of Richard, Eliza, Charlie and Roy – my grandma wrote the names on top of the people in consultation with my grandpa. My grandpa knew who his uncles and grandpa were.
Charlie height – yes parallax, shoes, a number of factors.
I’m not going to share all the photos because that just leads down so many rabbitholes and alternative theories. Plus I don’t want to disrespect any of our broader families wishes on what is in the public domain and what isn’t. Otherwise great work all. I do appreciate all the input, thoughts etc.
Stuart has confirmed that the girl shielding her eyes from the sun is Norma Mary Martin, he has shared the back of a photo showing what he thought read Norman M to actually be Norma which makes sense that she should be in the photo with her parents. There is no Norman in the Martin family according to Stuart on the Somerton Man site. Norma was born November 1925 and there are a few confirmed images on the net showing her with her parents estimated to be taken in ’27 or ’28. Just wanted to put it out there that’s its bloody hard trying to place who is who from family photos and trying to read names or dates written in old fashioned writing, I think it’s great that he’s shared more images and confirmed today about Norma 🙂
Due to new information from Stuart Webb, over on Derek Abbott’s Identifying the Somerton Man Facebook page, i now think Hickey is Stuart’s initial Normie Webb & the man being pranked by Charlie. Charlie may be making fun of Hickey’s beautifully slicked back hair… He’s also dressed quite dapper!
I was looking at Russell’s wife, Amy and her family. I think her mother and grandmother went to jail for 2 months for pawning stolen pictures getting 6s 6d for them.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5710523?searchTerm=%22sarah%20robinson%22
I was looking at Russell’s wife, Amy and her family. I think her mother and grandmother went to jail for 2 months for pawning stolen pictures getting 6s 6d for them.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5710523?searchTerm=%22sarah%20robinson%22
Just last week I put forward the possibility of Somerton man having been poisoned by the blood thinner cum rat poison called Warfarin but, to no great acclaim that I can recall. On ABC Aust. news today we have the tragic story of a young student from Queensland, studying in Taiwan who accidently ingested Warfarin over a short period with his food intake. Now he’s fighting for his life, due to internal organ haemoraging which was not detected until too late, his illness having earlier been attributed to a non lethal stomach bug or some such malady. Just thought the particular poison may bare some consistancy with Bob Cowan’s own failure to find any trace of known poison in poor Jerry’s system.
How we doing with naming the family members in the photo?
Em: round and round the garden like a teddy bear is “how we’s doing”. Ain’t gonna stop til someone shuts the garden gate mate; at any rate by then it’ll be too darn late…fate!
Sharon: no need to worry about links luv but, if you wack the details I’ve given up on trove, you’re sure to get the full monte which ain’t no more than I and others have posted.
@ John – my uncle – 1953 so call it what you like. Apparently he jumped ship and went to help some people whose village had been burned- so probably suspected communists or sympathisers. It may have also been from the merchant vs Royal Navy as he served in both. My dad was in the merchant navy – I have a copy of The Cruel Sea given to him as a Christmas present by his bother! Anyway, that’s a completely different track, point being we all have family mysteries! Don’t get me started on my Yiddish speaking great grandfather who went missing early in WWI, then reappeared when my great grandmother was living with someone else, with new children in tow… his record looks as though doing coastal surveillance work & was captured by the Germans. I don’t have experience in doing UK based searches so all of this will need to wait until I retire, if ever!
I don’t remember an earlier conversation about when Russell died? I’m sorry, I haven’t been taking notes. Angela & Family Search have the date as being 1995.
Now Stuart has altered his mind about “Normie M”, following my reply to Sharon Cochrane yesterday perhaps I might indulge myself by copying my post from 26 December 2022 (on the “My Name Is Charles” thread), under the pseudonym “Bob Nowak”.
“Bob Nowak
on December 26, 2022 at 10:16 pm said:
I think (as Poppins stated earlier) the tot in the front row with her hands on her head is the daughter of Daniel and Doris Martin, Norma Mary, born 1925, sitting next to her mum Doris Maude (with her husband Daniel behind):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2167278?searchTerm=%22daniel%20w%20martin%22
https://sites-cf.mhcache.com/t/018/511/230018511/000/000019_0999192k20q795af64a8r7_W_96x128/ftq-0CiDz4tQ9_VOAowCFCDrZLk=/.jpg
I think the woman in the white bonnet might be Amy Webb (nee Tomkinson), wife of Russell Richard, who died in 1929.
The kid in front of her is possibly Jack Keane. The mystery hand on her neighbour’s shoulder is deffo Thing Addams. Could it be Gladys Scott next to her mother Eliza on the far left, with her husband Leslie behind?
Is the guy between Roy and Carl verified as Russell Webb? Is he sporting a toupee?
The photo was taken in 1928 or 1929.”
Further to a reply from Sanders of the River I conceded that I was probably wrong about Leslie:
“Bob Nowak
on December 27, 2022 at 3:27 pm said:
John Sanders
If you were a little more forthcoming with your discoveries it might help us all.
Leslie William Scott (born 1895) did have an amputation of the hand at the wrist due to being wounded at Gallipoli so he is probably the bloke on the right of the photo (as we look at it). Daniel William Martin was also severely wounded in the Great War, in Belgium, in his legs.”
To clarify, all posts under the names “Steve H”, “Ann O” and “Bob Nowak” were made by me, as well as a few other jokey monikers. I only adopted the “Bob Nowak” nom de guerre because Mr Sanders kept accusing me of being the said personage with whom I had no prior acquaintance. Of course our esteemed moderator, “Old Nick” himself, clamped down on multiple identities/”stupid” pseudonyms and subsequently “outed” me as Steve Hurwood, but although I can’t claim to have a full-blown dissociative identity disorder, in my defence I have certainly had more than one “personality crisis”:
“Bout that personality crisis, you got it while it was hot
It’s always hot, you know it’s frustration and heartache is what you got
(Ow! I’ve gotta talk about personality, yeah, yeah, yeah, hah)
And you’re a prima ballerina on a spring afternoon
Change on into the wolfman, howlin’ at the moon, hooowww”
@Sharon Cochrane
A bit off-topic on this thread but given your interest in horse race fixing and doping, back in January I posted some findings about one Claude (ie Sydney Claude Ellis) Clendinnen, who lived at 49 Moseley Street, Glenelg, all to a deafening silence from fellow CM punters. As I said : “What is fascinating about the Clendinnens is that Claude was involved in one of SA’s biggest ever horse racing scandals. He was described in the News (Adelaide, SA) Tue 16 Jul 1946 as “a former racehorse owner, an ex hotelkeeper…reputed to be one of Adelaide’s wealthiest men.”
See for example these articles on Trove.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130857457?searchTerm=%22clendinnen%22%20moseley%20street
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128370169?searchTerm=%22clendinnen%22%20moseley%20street
Several of the key – or potentially key – players in the Somerton Man case lived on Moseley Street at one time or another, not just Jo and Prosper Thomson. I found out in August last year that the fiancee of Dr John Barkly Bennett (the doctor who pronounced the Somerton Man dead and second cousin to Charlie Webb’s wife Dorothy) Nan Sparrow lived on Moseley Street in 1948 and John Sanders pointed out that the Sparrows lived at number 105, dead opposite the Thomsons at 90a. The Sparrows were friends with the powerful Howard Dunstan family (Don was a nephew) who lived at number 47.
Robert James Cowan (the deputy government chemical analyst who’s findings agreed with Dr John Matthew Dwyer’s that the cause of death was unnatural) was living at number 47 in 1934. Sanders thinks Dwyer himself – the government pathologist who performed the post-mortem – lived on Moseley Street at some point but I can’t find any evidence of this.
A Mrs E E Freeman, who I don’t think was related to John Freeman the chemist who supposedly handed in the Rubaiyat, also lived at no 47 as the landlady for a long period. Dr Douglas Buxton Hendrickson, who some say was actually the person who handed in the Rubaiyat, had a practice at 51 Moseley Street. 47-49-51 Moseley Street. Hmm! 105 opposite 90a!
See:
https://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/almanacsanddirectories/1949sandsandmc/223/#zoom=z
https://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/almanacsanddirectories/1949sandsandmc/228/#zoom=z
@ John Sanders – Stuart Webb says that he knew his Uncle Charlie when growing up. I don’t think Stuart looks as though he was born in the 1940s or has first hand memories of the 1950s. If he is as old as your theory would have him to be I’d love to know his secret!
Norma in the group photo now must be correct, her name on the back of the photo and her image matches other know images but she was born November 1925 and Amy passed June 1929 , although there are 4 years from 25 till 29, she could only be 2 years and 8 months at the family picnic due to the months.
I wondered if it is not Amy, Stuart’s great grandmother but her daughter Doris Amy Webb? That would bring the image into the early 1930’s depending on the two girls ages as the image of Amy that Stuart posted is very similar to the picnic image.
Good on ya Stuart, completely fabulous, thanks for sharing info with us.
Err, would love a photo of Gerald but that’s just me being greedy, totally understand about family privacy.
H’mm, 1928 into early 1929 for the photo then …. a possible Melbourne show Hickey and Gerald were working on, will look through some programs while I have breaky. I’m still thinking the two unidentified blokes are JCW employees.
Sanders, okay, I’ve taken the bait again, lol, where do we find this NAA file for the missing flour truck man? I’ve had a look, can’t find it. Thank you, cheers.
Thanks @steve hurwood, yes the racing link in really interesting, I found that a person the stewards wanted to interview disappeared around the same time so the inquiry into doping didn’t go as planned and other articles from 1949 talking about a 3 year operation that had connection to banks , it was millions of dollars so if he was going to spill the beans with those sorts of dollars involved that’s a pretty good incentive for murder. Even the Melbourne Cup in 1948 was odd, 15 year old jockey comes in at 80 to 1 , just having a good day or a little bit of chemical help?
@jo – here’s what I actually said
“….my grandpas brother charlie (and not my grandpas uncle) is pretty out there. Have a look at the latest photos on facebook that confirm the date. My uncle Charlie (I know, he’s not my uncle but I knew him growing up and everyone is your uncle then) ”
Confusingly my grandpa had a brother Charlie (the one I knew) and an uncle Charlie (the one I didn’t, Somerton Man). I’m 53.
Steve Hardwood
You’ll please to find confirmation of Barb Dwyers address in Moseley St. from his NAA file.
Jo: now there’s a fine idea that could allow us to gain a better insight on a lot of the conjecture re photo dating and identity of the sitters etc., namely in that Stuart feels free to oblige us with his own age details. My best guess suggests around 1980 thereabouts, that being the case his memories of uncle Charlie are in jeapardy from a 1955 year of death perspective. There are at least couple more Charles Richard Webb’s on record, one passing in 1950 from Sydney another 1990 at Melbourne which might be factored in, depending on Stuart’s full background.
Jo, some types of connective tissue disorder can make people look twenty or more years younger than their biological age.
Steve: John M. Dwyer lived at Cross Road, Kingswood per ‘News’ Adelaide 16 Aug 1946 Page 1, Same paper 11 May 1949 Page 3 now at Port Rd, Hindmarsh, same address per “The Advertiser” 10 Feb 1951 Page 10-although the latter two maybe surgeries?
Poppins: YWIMC – Missing Truck Driver Melbourne 1955 – 2 entries for 26 August 1955 Argus and NLA @ trove. Sure hope you find it interesting, Jo thought it most amusing.
Steve Hardwood: Col. Barb Dwyer’s NAA service record has 27 Moseley Street listed as one of three addresses for NOK during the 40s. By 1969 as Dr. J. M. Dwyer OBE he’d moved into fancy digs at 157 East Terrace Victoria Park. Guess this has some relevance right?
@ Stuart – just a squabble with Mr Sanders who has Charles Richard Webb in his grave in 1955, well before your birth!! The Colonel just loves to try and prove me wrong. He thought I was an ASIO interloper at one point 😂.
Sorry Colonel! Wee evils in the flour is a historian joke. Janet McCalman wrote a well known oral history book on Richmond during the Great Depression – Weevils in the Flour. At least I laughed at my own joke.
Byron Devious: Carolyn A Sarbacher In her report on connective tissue & age – related diseases in 2019 on behalf of the National Institute of Health stated as follows:- These (gene mutation) disorders are characterised by accelerated signs and symptoms of ageing….So what gives with your opposite contrary conclusion and what effects may it have had, in Jerry Somerton’s downfall, if any?
JS vs Jo – like a low scoring soccer game played by amateur teams on a cold, wet weekend… Australian Rules anyone?
One of the older women in the family photo must be Emma A Keane. She died 1948.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/30151287?searchTerm=%22Emma%20keane%22
@Stuart – my beef with Jo has been that she, with a leg up from the tooth fairy is being allowed to get her way far too often and that includes outright untruths eg. just now to you Stu “Mr Sanders has Charles Richard Webb in his grave in 1955”. Back in early December last I suggested that possibility of 1955 based partially on a hunch though primrarily on NAA records which had a Charles R. Webb deceased sometime between 1950 & 1959. As a consequence Jo came back to me shortly thereafter per verbatum as quoted “You could be right and 1995 should be 1955″. Upon being reminded of our early discussion on the subjects she says conveniently ” I don’t remember an earlier conversation about when Russell [sic] died ?….” etc.
Well how about that for an honest mistake, Russell the father mistaken for his son Charles Richard. Yeah mate I believe her, others wouldn’t but won’t speak up.
Stuart: as for my suggesting Jo’s having been an “ASIO interloper, I think she may have had her wires crossed somehow; the word used being AfIO with a lower case F. A reference to her hopes of getting a leg in with Gordon Cramer who was once associated with an organisation of former intelligence operatives using that similar title.
John Sanders
I think the nickname “Hardwood” would apply better to your good self than to me! Six kids old son? Seems that you ate as profligate with your sperm as you are with your endless comments here on good ol’ CM. My own motto on the other hand is similar to that of one of Samuel Beckett’s characters in the Malone Dies/Molloy/The Unnamable trilogy: “At least my semen never did anyone any harm” (quoted from memory). But my antinatalism only extends to myself so you won’t get any moral judgments from me.
Perhaps I should have taken Beckett’s advice from the following quote:
“To know nothing is nothing, not to want to know anything likewise, but to be beyond knowing anything, to know you are beyond knowing anything, that is when peace enters in, to the soul of the incurious seeker.”
(From Molloy)
If you had checked back on Barb Dwyer’s WW2 record on NAA you would have seen that 24 (don’t think it’s 27) Moseley Street is a temporary address in 1940 for his next of kin (his wife Vera) and his permanent address is given as (105) Port Road, Hindmarsh. Full details on Dwyer’s war record and more can be found here:
https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/606081
“Ah if only this voice could stop, this meaningless voice which prevents you from being nothing, just barely prevents you from being nothing and nowhere, just enough to keep alight this little yellow flame feebly darting from side to side, panting, as if straining to tear itself from its wick, it should never have been lit, or it should never have been fed, or it should have been put out, put out, it should have been let go out.”
(Samuel Beckett, The Unnamable)
JS, that report related to the “age related” sub set of connective tissue disorders. There are many different forms of connective tissue disorder and these can result in opposite symptoms, even in the same family with more or less the same mutations. How do I know all this? Well. I have it and I have been researching it for some time and I had my autosomal and mtDNA sequenced several years ago. I have reported at length in the past of why I think TSM had a connective tissue disorder and why this could have impacted on his health, his nature and the possibility of accidental poisoning. Connective tissue disorders can alter the workings of the kidney and reduce the elimination of some medicines. This could have made TSM very susceptible to systole (heart paralysis) from a very ordinary dose of digitalis drug. It could have also predsposed TSM to sleep apnea and sudden death. It could also have affected the architecture of his entire neuronal system. Seventy percent of people with CTD have personality disorder and there is more. Mild lead poisoning would have exacerbated all this.
John, CTD often causes joint and other musculo-skeletal problems that are generally associated with ageing. But we were discussing how a person with CTD might look (not feel) twenty years younger. The answer is in the skin. Some, not all, CTD give a very youthful skin.
The joint and muscle pains associated with CTD could have been the reason for TSM’s alleged addiction to pain killer tablets. I know of one very bad case of addiction to codeine brought on by musculo-skeletal pain from CTD.
Byron: looks like you’ve covered all the bases for your long held views on what may have afflicted Somerton Man and lead to his untimely death but, if you don’t mind my saying, the man’s eventual downfall could well have been due to a host of other physical disorders, some with similar symptomology as your predelection for CTD.
Your mention of codein as a pain killer is somewhat misleading, for unless taken in combination with a triggering agent eg., paracetamol, benefits are in many cases not obtained or are quite minimal…speaking from my long and bitter experience with the overated vile substance as an excuse for pain relief from long healed war wounds of many years before.
There you go Stevo grasping at straws as usual and still thick as two ‘Hardwood’ planks no less. Was it also old Samual a’Beckett what came up with two of my all time favourites in “We are all born mad. Some remain so” and “You might fool some people all of the time, all of the people some of the time time, but not all of the people all of the time”. I’ll bow to your better knowledge of such drivel, don’t like to get caught with me daks down, know what I mean?
Stuart has a Great Uncle Charlie and a Great -great Uncle Charlie/Carl.
Great-great Uncle Charles is the somerton man DNA link.
Great Uncle Charlie was 52 years old when Stuart was born.
Most people can’t remember back before 5 so Stuart’s memory would be of his 57 plus year old ” Uncle Charlie”.
Why I think we still don’t have the real Charles.
Let’s take it slow.
Norman had a brother named Charles.
Therefore Norman’s son would have an Uncle Charles.
Norman’s grandson would have a Great Uncle Charles.
Now’s where it gets confusing.
Russell had a brother Charles.
Russell’s son had an Uncle Charles.
Russell’s grandson had a Great Uncle Charles.
Russell’s Great grandson had a Great , Great Uncle Charles.
Stuart had both a great Uncle and a great great Uncle both named Charles.
Now if Stuart is 53 in 2023 then he was born 1970.
The great Uncle that he knew was born 1918 so he was 52 years older than Stuart.
Most people don’t remember before the age of 5 therefore Stuart’s memory would be of a man 57 or older.
Stuart has said he grew up knowing Charles and there were photos around his home of ancestors.
Stuart has also said he didn’t know which person in the group photo was Charles until a week later he found the smaller photo with “Charlie” written on it.
There was the confusion with Norman M because the writing actually says Norma M.
The writing also names Norma’s parents Doris and Daniel M.
I think if Norma had been identified first, then her parents, easily cross checked with other verified photos then estimating the child’s age the photo would have been taken after 1930. Norma may appear 12 months younger when only working with dates as she was born in November 1925. If a photo was taken in April 1926 Norma would not look one as her birth year indicates as she would only be 5 months old. As Norma looks about 7 let’s estimate the image to be 1933.
If the photo was then investigated using 1933 , the known age of Somerton Man in 1933 is 28 , plus his physical description from the police report, 180cm tall, broad square shoulders, 75-80kg, mousy ginger hair worn brushed back with no parting, large hands, then the man sitting in the back row is a good fit.
Then checking Roy in 1933 would be 29.
The young man named Charlie would be 15.
Both good matches.
Stuart says he grew up with Uncle Charlie but would he recognise the 57 plus year old man with a photo of him as a 15 year old teenager?
News reports from late 2022 and information posted to family heritage sites both say only the 4 people from the smaller image had been named so from that I’m thinking that no one had looked at the photo and said, ” that’s X, his photo was on the piano growing up, I’d recognise it anywhere”
I think Charlie was found when cross checked from the smaller photo, the group photo then thought to be taken much earlier to account for Charlie’s youthful image has lead to pieces not fitting easily together.
@ David – yes, Emma Keane has been identified as being in the photo. She is sitting between Gladys and Amy. I imagine she was a tough and hardworking woman. She ran a fish shop on Manifold Street, the main road through Camperdown (1935 Sands & Mac directory). It’s now a roast chicken takeaway shop (not the original building) and is next door to the Camperdown Chronicle newspaper, which is still running. I was in Camperdown recently – it’s a lovely town though economically challenged, many of the buildings are very little changed from the early twentieth century.
John,
people carrying a common (10% of the population) mutation of the CYP2D6 gene, or a mutation of the CYP1B1 gene do not get effective pain relief from codeine. Like you, codeine doesn’t work with me due to the CYP1B1 mutation.
John Edweird Sanders
I’ll pass over your obvious trap of pretending to confuse the deliverer of the Gettysburg Address with one of my fallen heroes (aren’t they all), the unpleasantly misogynistic – I know you love that term – Sam Beckett.
One more quote from the Irishman would seem appropriate to you soldier, from an interview in Vogue magazine of all places: “Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness.” How true in your case.
It’s the same old repetitious tripe from the Three Witches Bowes, Cramer and Sanders. You can’t stomach the fact that no-one with any sanity takes any of you seriously. I see old “Hodad” Bowes has “ended” his blog again – for the millionth time – so I expect he’ll be back on Monday. Ha,ha,ha.ha,ha Wipeout!
“By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes”
Oh dear, I’ve only been back for five minutes and you’ve got me spewing bile again. You have that effect on a lot of people.
Now down to business. I had completely missed the recent comments on the ‘Tamam Shud/Somerton Man’ thread by your bad self and Mr Bus Timetable. Dear chaps, I had proved that Mrs E E Freeman wasn’t related to Freeman the chemist back in January by some simple, er you know, research. On 13 April Mr Bus Timetable announced “Never mind EE unrelated, I think”. Well pal, as you used to state repeatedly to me when I made my first tentative comments here back last August “It’s all been said before”.
But far, far worse was your blatant rip off, John, of my findings and speculations without even a hint of acknowledgment that you were cribbing from my hard work.
“Milongal: Crikies mate you’re a tad late in the day for coincidental discovery of the Cowan nee Reece bonny bouncer. I had covered the birth some years ago to no aclaim [sic] as expected, then Bob Dylon [sic], or one such imposter exitedly [sic] broke the news again very recently”.
I can’t comment on Bob Dylon’s involvement in this affair, but it was actually me who “exitedly” broke the news in January.
But then you go on to say: “I recall some really strange goings on at 47 Moseley in the not so roaring forties and you’ll surely recall our long discussion whether the occupier of ’48, a Mrs. E. E. Freeman who happened to be living next to the Hendricksons at 13 Pier St. could be the chemists wife. That aint all by a long shot, for Drs. Sprod and wife Lica nee Delprat, remember Peteb’s Mi5 connection, had been in residen til his passing in ’34, followed by the notoriously influential Dunstans (The Don’s kin).” You can put the sics in yourself this time. I don’t have time.
Now I’ve been bangin’ on about the Dunstans for eight solid months, and you have rubbished my rodomontades on such topic every damn time. Now you have suddenly picked up the hint that the Dunstans were “notoriously influential”. Gawd luv us, it only took two-thirds of a year for the penny to drop. You must be speedin’ up in your old age. And of course the Dunstans were HUGE mates with the Sparrows – was that Nancy or Nadine by the way?
Not that I care two hoots if you are hanging on the tailcoats of my research. At least it proves that one person has been listening! I’m flattered, not flattened.
If anyone else who happens to be reading this is at all interested in this rubbish, see my numerous posts (as Steve H) from 16 January (12:56 pm) to 19 January (12:58 am) on the ‘Gladys May Webb and Leslie Wiliam Scott’ thread about Moseley Street’s residents. If you are of a sensitive nature Just shield your eyes when you see saucy limerick which I posted as “Australian Christian Lobby” involving our esteemed moderator and Amber Heard..
All I need now is for Calypso to come back and try to entice me to her island in order to make me her immortal husband. But perhaps now we are straying into James Joyce territory rather than Samuel Beckett.
Given some recent conjectures concerning the gee-gees I can’t resist one last quote, this time from ’60s punk band The Sonics:
“Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But I like the taste
Of straight strychnine (Hey, hey)
You may think it’s funny
That I like this stuff
But once you’ve tried it
You can’t get enough, wow”
@ Steve
These threads seem to be full of surfers of various kinds, mainly Australian.As an English man, do you know how to dive? Even if no, are welcome to come and read serious literature on my island and make cups of tea, I will have coffee.
Calipso
Not sad to say Steve’s locked away and won’t be back for many a day,
He’s in safe hands with nought to pay and have no fear he’s there to stay.
So its Hip Hip Hip, Hoo Muckingray, the mongrel’s gone and all’s OK.
Fee-fo-fi-fum. You can have coffee and I’ll have rum. Bundy OP with a few lammos. All these gremmies pretending to be surfies! Too much.as Bob Dylan might say.
To get back on topic on this thread.
For those still thinking the group photo is from the mid thirties, how do you explain the photo of Richard and Eliza shown on the ABC Australian Story doc at 25 mins and 6 seconds:
https://youtu.be/9wL1t3A-uHo?t=1506
– where they look considerably older than at the happy gathering?
Bear in mind that Richard died in 1939, and it’s fairly obvious that the family photo is around ten years before that. I agree with Pat and Poppins that the photo is most likely 1928-29.
However, it could be a bit later if Amy is not in the photo after all. I proved to Stuart Webb that Daniel Martin didn’t have a brother Normie (although I got no acknowledgment) and indeed I said in a pm to another contributor to CM before Stuart changed his mind; “Unless “Normie” is Norma Mary Martin. If the photo is from 1928-9 it could be her and not Gwen Keane …” I believe Poppins first correctly identified the girl. who can’t be older than 5.
I’m still not convinced that the bloke with Charlie’s hand poised above his bonce isn’t Gerald Keane. If Hickey is in the photo I reckon it’s the bloke at the far left. I did think the kid at the front was Jack Keane but it could be Leo, although in short trousers I wouldn’t have thought he was older than 12.
The bloke behind the woman in the white bonnet (whom we are told is Gladys) intrigues me. Is that some sort of uniform he is wearing – a jockey, a pastor, a freemason or some such? I always think of Sanders as looking like the bloke behind “Emma K” – I encountered a cop who looked just like that on my first visit to Sydney Town back in 1983.
As for the location, I convinced myself that the sign read “THE LONG VIEW”, but I don’t think that’s correct. I think hedges are and were plentiful in Melbourne so there’s no point in guessing.
My goodness! Why do I keep hearing that old Wire song from 1978 ‘Being Sucked In Again’ in my head all the time?
https://youtu.be/uF7cx8VpXEo
“Feeling numbed from anaesthetised flesh
Avoid disgrace, ideas still fresh
The gaping mouth, a fish-wife’s dream”
Steve Harwood
That’s twice in a row my innocuous retorts to you’re long winded and garbled self aggrandising nothingness have been summarily stymied for no reason which your now verboten old pals Peteb and GC might themselves find rather gutless. Guess this one will also incur the wrath of our steamed moderator but, that’s life and so Nick Pelling’s ‘under the counter’ sideshow must go on. Anyone care two hoots re our Somerton man mystery prior to Derek’s slam dunk Carl Webb intervention.
@ Steve – I think you’re onto something. Perhaps the man behind Emma Keane is Sanders and that is why he knows so much whilst the rest of us know so little! Sanders, the original photo bomber! Perhaps that’s what he did before the Internet was invented!
John Sanders: you’ve let yourself get too hot under the collar a couple of times, ranting at Steve H (for basically nothing). Comments that attack more than they inform basically get the chop.
On familysearch, Gwen Keane married William Dickinson but Trove have a catholic woman Gwen Keane marrying Frank Moriarty and having a child. Potentially there is a [are] living Moriarty who could add details about the Keane family and might have photographs.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11906933?searchTerm=%22gwen%20keane%22
with Frank as an architect
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11852484?searchTerm=%22frank%20moriarty%22
Originally 368 collins street
Dead with 6 children 1955 in Mt Evelyn.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/267428890?searchTerm=%22frank%20moriarty%22%2C%20architect
He seems to have built a catholic church with E. Keane.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/172189049?searchTerm=%22frank%20moriarty%22%2C%20architect
@ David – I think it’s a case of the same names. There seems to have been a Gwen Keane involved in Catholic school events in the 1930s (Star of the Sea & Loretto association of schools) and also Gwen Keane of Footscray involved in dancing competitions. I think they are two different people & Gwen Keane of Footscray is Freda & Gerald’s daughter…
@Steve Hurwood, I did a screen shot from the video link you shared, the clothes are the same from the picnic day, the ladies dress , I thought it was a different day to start cause her necklace tooked different but it’s the same, just the way the sun is catching it? The man’s outfit is the same, shirt collar, tie, where the line runs across the tie? He’s removed his cardigan. When the camera rolls up the photo in the video you can see the length and shape of the skirt part of the dress and it also matches with the group shot where she has her legs curved to her side and flared skirt spread over her legs.
David Morgan
Well spotted David. With such stuff, we could at long last be back on course with Derek Abbott’s Carl Webb @ Unknown Man identity confirmation despite attempt to have y’man relegated to ‘also ran’ status in favour of the upstart Hickey Taylor. Your own timely input was helped no end by the literal avalanche of supporting links to 1936 birth of Gwen Moriarty nee Keane’s baby daughter (both doing well). Special mention be in order for Nick Pelling’s usual unbiased moderation enabling your post to be published verbatum. With Derek Abbott’s own initial input and the constant flow of updates by his loyal face book contributors such as our Jo and of course your good self, to name but a few, the long enduring Gerry Feltus inspired Somerton Man case might now be nearing conclusion.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/zF1BNfAuNgCn
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/o3bK87ANEwwS
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/vZ7AERqsXsqV
@steve hurwood, here’s the screen shots and photos, re same day suggestion.
Which brings us back to this problem , Charles and his mum who is 35 years older than Charles?
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/lNjQXCtKqOLv
Random speculation …. Carl is pointing his right hand at the mystery man and has left hand over his head as in a “ta da” motion, maybe because he’s a star – h’mm, how about this bloke, Douglas Herald – he was here in Melbourne December 1928 appearing in The Desert Song and looks rather similar.
Steve I’m also intrigued by the fellow behind Gladys.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3030313391/view
This one just for the picture, the writing’s too hard to read:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/267533847?searchTerm=douglas%20herald
Sanders, is this the flour guy story you were talking about?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/6566295
And case solved … turns out he wasn’t keen to do some baking.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/6566721
Jo/Poppins: sure sounds like you’re right on the money there, case closed thanks to trove and a little extra personal input for a most satisfactory outcome. Another missing truck and driver with a consignment of wool was recorded in rural Victoria pre war which might be worth a bo peep. It may also end up being another easy case with the perp going on the lamb after getting in for his chop and fleecing the Wool Board.
Calipso [sic]
Harry Belafonte, Mr. Calypso himself passed a few days ago aged 96 and his legacy is that during his long career in show business and (not so) private life, he never had cause to complain of racial taunts against him, being revered by everyone who crossed his path which including President J. F. K. and his immortal friend Martin Luther King. When I bought my first 45 record around 1958 it had Harry singing his first hit ‘Day-O’ on one side with ‘Star-O’ on the flipside and it’s possibly still about. “Strike me deadly black Tarantula” comes to mind Calipso and the never dated
‘Jamaica Farewell’. A fond fare-thee-well to Harry B @ Harold George Bellanfanti.
Poppins: brilliant photo of your latest suspect Douglas Harold under his name plus J. C. Williamson (circa 1950 Oklahoma). Gotta be quick though Jo or one of them’ll beat you to it and claim all the glory.
@ JS
Yes, Harry Belafonte, a great performer and activist. I hope your original 45 is still around!
Have you considered starting your own blog, tracking lost cargoes of the twentieth century? I’m sure you could attract quite a following! You could set a weekly challenge and have a global community of people sleuthing through Trove and local folklore trying to find various missing consignments! You could apply for a State Library of Victoria Creative Fellowship to get you started!
https://www.slv.vic.gov.au/get-involved/creative-fellowships.
Nick – write the fella a reference please! I’ll try to think of a snappy blog title…
I’m still playing street signs 😆 and shadows 😂
I do like Steve Hurwood’s THE LONG VIEW, but I’m sort of getting HAMPTON PIER out of that lot. Maybe it’s not lush hedge. Maybe it’s a windswept landscape with Eliza parked on seaside daisies. Roadway running east-west behind them, looking north, 4pm afternoon sun casting a shadow at just the right angle.
Something like here on Google Maps (-37.9467204, 144.9980808)
Wild speculation of course.
Poppins:
Interesting idea about Douglas Herald. He does look to me like a better fit to our prank victim than Taylor, particularly with his jaw and brow. According to your second link, he was playing the role of Ali Ben Ali, so his on-stage persona would have had a head covering, a harem, the whole shebang… if it is Herald there in the photo, I wonder if Charlie’s joke was to provide his liege with a “palm” fan? What ridiculous fun.
@Sharon Cochrane
I see what you mean about the clothes Richard and Eliza are wearing. To me they do look considerably older in the photo of the pair on their own than the one with Roy and Charlie, but who knows? The former is a bit fuzzy and the lighting might be playing tricks. Richard was born in 1866 and Eliza in 1870-1872 (accounts differ), so if the foursome and group photos were taken in 1928-29 Richard would have been in his early 60s and Eliza in her late 50s. “Charlie” is certainly no older than his mid 20s and looks younger than that.
Stuart Webb stated in the recent Criminal podcast that he had three missing “uncles”! Was Charles Richard Webb one of them? Personally I think he has a smaller mouth than the “Charlie” in the two photos. Does anyone actually know when he died and what happened to him?
You may have gained the impression from some of my posts that I neither like nor respect the unholy trinity of Sanders, Bowes and Cramer. That would be correct – I neither like nor respect any of them. I’m sure the feeling is mutual on all three counts.
SM investigators who get too involved with the case may or may not begin to sympathise with Paul Watkins when he stated: “I lived with Charlie for one year straight…I know Charlie. I know him inside and out. I became Charlie. Everything I once was, was Charlie. There was nothing left of me anymore.”
Paul Watkins was Charles Manson’s second in command. and chief procurer of girls.
Furthering my thoughts on Hampton Pier as being a possibility for the blurred street sign, I’m pretty sure the trees in the background, especially the one above Leslie Scott’s head appears to be a typical seaside windswept bush…very similar to the tree depicted here at Picnic Point in Hampton/Sandringham.
https://ehive.com/collections/9138/objects/1060652/picnic-point-drill-hall-sandringham
It makes a great deal of sense to me that what is now a section of Jetty Street (coordinates provided up here ⬆️ somewhere) backs onto Picnic Point, and where our extended family are on the opposite side of the road, seems to always have been a recreational reserve (now sectioned off with 1970s permapine and is overgrown). It’s also very easy to imagine a path from Sandringham Beach leading up to this road and requiring a sign to tell people where to find the pier.
Every time I look at the street sign and enhance, sharpen it, or try out some of this AI stuff I get a very strong ‘..MPTON ..E..’ out of it.
Good on ya Lurch, that’s amazing what you’re seeing on the sign. I’ll start lookin’ for Hampton stuff.
Hickey was out of Melbourne from March 28 1929 aboard Nairana
docking in Tassie with the usual gang, Griffiths, Tovey, Gordonov etc – in July they’re in Cairns for The Student Prince. A picture of him from that show would be a good recent one to find. He played First Lackey which appears to be one of the lead roles.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/51536320?searchTerm=Taylor%20Tovey%20arrivals
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/40684102?searchTerm=Taylor%20Tovey%20student%20prince
Haha Sanders, that’s bo-peepin’ funny!
I have to say sometimes when I’m lookin’ for stuff I get captivated by news stories surrounding what I’m looking for and think “what the heck is that about” and then get caught up following that whole saga to its conclusion. There was a man who thought he was a motor car … stuff like that, strangely fascinating.
Same type of pole here, do you think?
https://ehive.com/collections/9138/objects/1059133/fewster-road-hampton
“Case of Charles Weber, Line Inspector, Electrical Engineering Branch – Leakage of Information”. Could that be our Carl Webb by any chance, signed on under his original family name to get electrical trade employment under a Commonwealth Govt. sponsored scheme. Working with new state of the art (1920’s) cross country power transformers, transmission lines and like projects could account for his abscence from the social scene for extended periods, not to mention detention at HM’s pleasure if convicted. Guess we could dig deeper if anyone be prepared to fork out the search fee, not me!
Sharon,
Regarding Steve Hardarse’s unholy trinity comment, I note that I’m identified with Beelzebup, lesser of the three weevils. According to whatever authority one might prefer, my deadly sin relates to “pride, gluttony or Idolatry” take your pick. They hardly compare with rebukes handed to “Bowes (lucifer) and Cramer (astaroth)” notwithstanding. In Coming from the clown prince of shame, indulgence and idol gossip none of the long winded self serving hateful diatribes are worth a tinker’s cuss. Question is will our moderator see fit to post? not if consistancy be the case!
I am still convinced CW was institutionalised in a mental facility when he was released Gerald sorted him out by putting him in touch with someone in Adelaide
https://youtu.be/dCjRk9fzPLc
@ steve hurwood, yes it’s certainly got the ability to suck you into the rabbit hole like Alice in Wonderland, add in a few mad hatters, bad tempered queens lol. My moneys on the racing connection. It’s also interesting reading first hand information from newspapers from the day as most internet sites say ” no poison” but most 1948/ 1949 articles say, ” one of the new untracable poisons” . Few first hand reports on strychnine not causing vomiting too and due to how it enters the body that changes where it’s found during an autopsy. The horse racing fraud was huge at the time, millions of dollars , big incentive to shut some one up and may explain why the South Australian Bookmakers kindly paid for his funeral? Maybe didn’t want the story in the headlines for too long?
Please don’t use terms like His or Her Majesty’s pleasure when you seek the destruction of the constitution.
And take your penny pinching to the newly (again) defunct Bowes blog. Take the Transcontinental over there.
Poppins: that’s the type of standard street sign I remember where I lived as a kid and I’m sure that the same ones or similar are still in place. As for the old style 25 watt light fitting above your fine post depression example, it bears of course of no relevance to the unlit ol’ pole in the photo. Also as you and other astute observers will surely have noted, the one in our mid thirties family pic. is sawn to a point, a most thoughtful addition in my opinion.
Poppins: how about the street light? Exactly the same model as the one in the family photo.
Ayuturdica,
I couldn’t give a transcontinentall what you’re freaking on about this time around. just lucky you followed Nick’s advice on not addressing anyone by name in order to have your crap posted. I still have some sense of pride of purpose which isn’t always helpful… Not at all sure what you don’t like about the constitution, actually I’ve never given it much thought, though hicups may have been overcome by the adoption of a Madison Bill of Rights amendment provision from day one 1st Jan, 1901. Oh well not to worry it’ll likely be sorted out in HM Charlie’s III’s Good time, Rule Britania what?
….whoops everyone except for Lurch it seems. He’s gonna be a little harder to convince as to the pair of poles and add on(s) being in any way different.
Lurch, darn tootin’ it’s the same light feature. Sanders, h’mm, I’m not sure if the sign comes to a point or if it’s an optical illusion …. investigations must now ensue from this juncture, let’s get crackin’!
Seems like there is no mystery about the death of Charles Richard Webb in 1995, as Jo correctly identified. In the 2013 obit for his wife Poppy (reproduced on Geni) it is stated that they are “Reunited…Dancing in the Stars”.
I doubt that this would be similar to dancing at the Hacienda. CM commenters who might be bemused by my frequent references to that notorious club should watch the film ’24 Hour Party People’:
https://youtu.be/dmyOIbeDTbk
I have to indulge myself here and say that I was present and correct at the very first 808 State gig in a small Manchester club in March 1988 when A Guy Called Gerald was in the group and they did a proto-version of the Hacienda’s “unofficial theme” ‘Voodoo Ray’ (as heard at the end of the clip) . Sorry, can’t resist bragging that I was one of the handful of folks there to witness the birth of “Madchester”. ACIIIID!
The confusion about Charles Richard was solely caused by a malign commenter here on CM who once again was deliberately spreading lies and misinformation. That individual fully deserves their place in my “unholy trinity”, although maybe more Mephistopheles than Beelzebub, and I ain’t about to sign no Faustian pact with the bastard. I will maintain the right to be as self-indulgent, gossipy, irrelevant and long-winded as I flamin’ please (or as The Moderator is prepared to put up with).
Some CM commenters, especially Jamie S, have been worried about the woman who Stuart Webb identified as “Amy”, and particularly her lack of embonpoint in the chest department. They have concluded that this individual is a girl. To me she looks like a fully grown woman, but not one in her 30s, especially one who died in 1929 after suffering from a long illness according to the Camperdown Chronicle of 6 June 1929:
“Mrs. Webb, wife of Mr. Russell Webb.
Deceased, who had been ill for some
considerable time, was a well-known
resident of Camperdown, where she
had many friends who will grieve to
hear of her death.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/33431281?searchTerm=%22webb%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/33431246?searchTerm=%22webb%22
I wish to make it absolutely clear that the only “innovative filth” I have posted on this site has been purely for the pleasure and entertainment of fellow contributors. I have never doxxed anyone and I have NO knowledge of the addresses of ANY commenters or bloggers on the Somerton Man mystery. My first post on CM was on 5 August 2022 and I have no idea who the original Bob Nowak is or was. I may or may not have something tattooed on my forehead, but I do have LOVE and HATE tattooed on my knuckles like Bob Mitchum in the magnificent ‘Night of the Hunter’. (Actually that’s a goddam lie!)
https://youtu.be/jcTv-BEwabk
Lol, check out this eBay item! The exact same vintage lamp bracket as shown in the family photo and in Poppins’ research of the Hampton area.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/325431769206?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=yYPuFFMkSD2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=m_TLEnCEThC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Check out the seller’s location…none other than Hampton, Victoria.
Sorry JS, hope you’re not salty as the Sandringham sea air over this one. It’s not Werribee 🤣
Steve Hurwood: so how’s about the 1995 obit. for Poppy’s Charlie, was that posted on Geni too. Didn’t think so, give us one of your trade mark “hey nonny nonny” proclamations when that proof comes about. “Reunited..Dancing in the Stars” don’t prove jack shit to anyone. [Snip]
@ Lurch & Poppins – some interesting ideas here! I’m wondering though, why Hampton? The area would be a little different & more bushy than now. The sea walk was built in the 1930s, as a Susso project during the Great Depression (it features some convict quarried bluestone from other sites). I lived in this area shortly after coming to Australia & did my final year of high school not far away from Hampton (at Summer Heights High!) – we studied the impact of the Depression on the local area & interviewed people who had lived there through the 30s. I interviewed Bert Ward who founded the Dendy cinemas & whose dad was a Hampton or Sandringham green grocer…
@ Lurch & Poppins
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/11793906
More on the history of the sea wall near Hampton pier. It contains some old convict grave markers from the original Melbourne Gaol!
(Lurch – you seem to know the area well? Con the Fruiterer was my English teacher when I began at Summer Heights High!).
Nick Pelling……not at all sur Prized. And a big Snip crickle pip to you too [deleted]
Are the objects on the left and between the group and the lamp pole vegetation of some sort? If they are bushes they are very unusual in being very dense (leaves densely packed) and the leaves very shiny. If it is some unusual bush then this might just suggest possible localities such as a botanic garden (as has been suggested) or a reserve with exotic plantings. These bushes might just be still extant, particularly if they are some exotic.
I have just searched photos of the Camperdown botanic garden and I noticed weeping elms that could fit the bill. See: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/75/f3/a2/75f3a238a5c1e9c3a95b7ad82db247c2.jpg
Well! And there seems to be a possible old timber light pole immediately behind this bush and some buildings along a path to the right.
Whoever took the photograph owned a relatively expensive camera with a relatively good lens for the day, and knew how to take good photographs. This might allow us to narrow down the possibilities for identifying the photographer, particularly if we can find other photos he/she may have taken. IMHO the format of the photo (oblong) suggest that the camera may have been a Kodak 122 format. IMHO a 120 format would not have produced the required definition seen in the photo. The frame size of 122 film was 3 and a quarter inches by 5 and one half inches (1: 1.69) and one of the uses of this format was to produce DIY post cards. Maybe Stuart could check to see if this is the format of the original photo?
Jo: No, I don’t know the area. My first thought on the street sign was that it was saying something…mpton. And with some wind blown ti tree and other seaside looking flora, it’s the only reason I honed in on Hampton.
With the street light brackets being consistent with the Hampton area, it would be great to find out the manufacturer and the date range they were rolled out, and more importantly, how wide spread they were (other suburban areas).
The fashions continue to suggest the group photo was taken after 1930.
Although glasses were wore through the ages sunglasses are a later invention.
In 1910 they were the small circle, wireframes, John Lennon style.
Darker glasses were mainly worn to help with eye conditions and syphilis so weren’t popular everyday wear.
Late 1920 movie stars wore glasses but they were more thick rimed goggle style.
The first mass produced sunglasses were in 1929.
Styles changed into the 1930’s going from the heavy rimmed goggle style to the wire rimmed eyewear with a choice of lens shapes.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/5oIfov3QQhdt
Jo: Con the fruiterer be the dud’s uncle, a cuni lingual Kastellorizan, out to Oz by way of Alex. on a BOAC 707 non stop Sunday run into Essendon, in the nick for an intro to VFL with a Bombers homer against the invincible Roos then out to Mebun Markets for a quick shufti and ofta new digs in little Greece (Oakleigh) finis. ‘Coupla days’ for Con, pizzapiss.
Sharon: undoubtedly the most profound (clear as glass) spotting since the start of this thread, no ifs and no buts about it. Sadly you’re not likely to get any heads up for your perception re 1930s sun glasses (two pair) from our in crowd, expect only ridicule and counter argument. You won’t get support from Admin. either, he’s cleaverly given up on dating the Webb family and moved on to his second love ‘Sky Ships’. Go get em Shaz!
@John (Lord of the Flies) Sanders
I wish you had had the snip ages ago – you might not have made your small contribution to the overpopulation of the planet if that had been the case.
As you identify yourself with Beelzebub, it’s worth recounting Satan’s words to him when they first encounter each other in hell:
” If thou beest he—but O how fallen! how changed
From him who, in the happy realms of light
Clothed with transcendent brightness, didst outshine
Myriads, though bright!”
From John Milton, Paradise Lost
Well, I’m sure Bowes (who you identified as your boss Lucifer/Satan) and yourself – let’s forget Gordon “The Stoic” Cramer – do regard the last few months as “Paradise Lost”. When you old codgers – along with the likes of The Moderator (Mammon?) and milongal (Death?) were forced out of the Garden of Eden by Derek Abbott and Collen Fitzpatrick, with just one of milongal’s bus timetables each as a fig leaf to cover your modesty, it must have come as a very nasty shock. “Good on you Gordon” indeed. Crawler! Snake! Don’t think I’ll be joining you on the semi-defunct tbt anytime soon. And you’re more like a bottle of meths than a good French wine, Beaujolais Nouveau or otherwise. Premier crude rather than premier cru.
Imagine having some fresh blood and fresh ideas to disturb the old boys’ club.
Even – shock, horror – some women. And A Guy From Bristol. Too bad. But you, John, like Cain, have been living East of Eden (cf the old Bristol prog band famous for ‘Jig-a -Jig’) in the land of Nod for some time now. Your response has been a wall of harassment, misogyny and bullying in the dying of your light.
You’ll have to take up Charles Richard Webb’s date of death with Peter Davidson who manages his profile on Geni and gives the date as 8 August 1995.
You’re just jealous cos I was witness to (and participant in) the birth of rave culture at a time when you and most Australians were still dancing round your handbags to John Farnham and Little River Band.
@Jo
Have to keep my intelligence and reconnaissance of enemy forces up to date. And just who is old Maude L? When it comes to ‘Sirens’ I had you down as a dead ringer for Elle Macpherson. Sadly I could never pass as Hugh Grant, although in my youth I was frequently compared to Michael Caine when I wore my specs and a fellow in Alice Springs once INSISTED that I was John ‘Please Sir’ Alderton.
Byron: I was thinking of Goodenia ovata prostrate for the creeping shrub. Seems to fit with the flora of Sandringham
https://www.bcs.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1911-05-04_victorian_naturalist_vol_8_pp5-18_sutton_c_s.pdf
@ Byron – the Camperdown Botanical Gardens could make sense as Emma Keane is in the shot. They are up on a hill, just outside the town & look out over two lakes. In the 1920s-30s there was a lookout & rotunda there. I was there a few weeks ago & also at the Colac Botanical Gardens, which are flatter & beside Lake Colac.
@ Steve – good to see you reading your fan mail “on another site”. I was having a bit of a laugh. I can’t believe you were at the birth of rave culture but don’t know Maude! Oh brother wherefore art thou! No, never been mistaken for Elle.
The street sign doesn’t come to a point, investigation re pointy sign has been completed, it’s just tilted a bit on an angle. Do you think maybe it’s a big A with a little v in the upper corner at the end of the sign for Avenue?
Jo, I’ve been looking through Trove and it seems lots of people were heading to Hampton for picnics, just jumping on the train. Oh boy, everyone was going on picnics then, so lovely, will try and find Richard Webb in a Bakers Picnic photo – found stagehands picnic photos, teddy bears picnic, the list goes on – great group photos though.
Nick Pelling
You were right, and……They’re coming to take ME away, haha, they’re coming to take ME away….Ho ho, hee hee, ha haaaaasaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa……[sick]
Poppins: I agree that the sign be square and not pointed. That being the case the board must be tilted from the top away from the lens and attached at the back. As for the protrusion on the side of the post and beneath the sign itself, I’m stumped for once?
What’s that Colonel ? Con the fruitier is my uncle ? Yeah and Kylie Mole is my little sister…!
Fair dinkum Colonel If all the village idiots in all the world got together and started their own private village you would be the village idiot in that village.
Here’s an example of the same vine leaf cast iron street lamp used on Dandenong Road, Windsor as early as 1914.
https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/nl41j4/a_look_at_suburban_main_streets_in_the_early/
By the looks of it from other research (gumtree, marketplace) they served dual purpose as gasoliers as well as electric street lighting. But certainly it doesn’t offer any clue for dating the photograph, as their use certainly predates any date range we are looking at.
Still I think the sign says Hampton 😁
Would it be clever to suggest that the white sign was installed at a popular site to assist kean photographers in obtaining the best exposures from a background of lighter and darker shades. Note that it’s correct positioning for such a purpose can be evidenced from the sign’s elevation and alignment which perfectly separates the blue skyline and thick dark growth line below. So all that our pro cameraman needed to worry about on that fine day down Werribee way was to set his tripod up, adjust his fancy lens to ensure proper tonal ballance; Then all that remained was to get the Webb, Keane, Martin, Scott and Taylor families say Coon Cheese & BINGO picture to remember all your ancestors by. what do you reckon Stuart.
@Jo
Nope, none the wiser about Maude. When I Googled “Maude L rave” I got a nasty shock though (something to do with a “Maude Vibe”). Madge I do know – she did her first UK TV performance (miming) at the Hacienda (no I wasn’t there). Did I tell you about the time Bernard Sumner from New Order served me a pint in the Hac? He’d dyed his hair since I saw him perform with Joy Division back in ’79.
At least you have given me a new moniker, “A Guy From Bristol”. If I ever do a DJ set…
Whilst I have your attention perhaps you could tell your mate over at tbt John Sanders that “Sharon’s new” photo of Roy’s parents was linked by me (from the ABC doc) on this thread on 1 May at 9.43 am as Sharon acknowledged when she replied to me the same day and said that she had done a screen shot for her Facebook page. You don’t have to be signed up to Facebook to view it either, just Google “The Real Charles Webb Facebook” and dismiss the sign in prompt. Poor old Bowes can’t even get Sharon’s surname correct!
Actually I am wavering a little in my 1928-29 date for the photo partly cos of Stuart’s cock-up with Norma/Normie, and also my own queries about “Amy”. But I still think “Charlie” is probably Carl and he does look early to mid twenties max.
JS: you’re going to have to convince everyone with a link to some images showing Werribee with the same cast iron vine leaf lamp brackets and maybe a wind swept ti tree or two to support your theory.
…oh that’s right, I forgot 😂
Lurch: I’ll do my best to acquiess to your request for the Werribee pics though, it may not be possible from my present location due to certain regulations in place prohibiting the posting of maps or photographs of rural locations for security reasons. Fortunately I plan to be elswhere come June where such is not the case, so if you be patient and if ‘the crik don’t rise’ in the meantime, your wish will be granted. The photos are of more a more recent time frame, so apart from the tree branch over ‘Charlies’ blond scone, you won’t spot any other period add ons such as the pole nor any of our cast of yet to be identified characters especially not Amy.
What about Warrnambool?
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/521606b819403a17c4ba1018
…a short addendum to my recent “Charles Weber” case notes that I posted for my benefit only it seems. The Aust. Commonweath Gazette of 29 Dec. 1922 under it’s lengthy Post and Telegraph section, mentions amongst other things, an employee C. Weber (one of hundreds) under the heading ‘prohibitions’ whatever that means.
Hi @Steve Hurwood, yes thank you, I only went looking for the video after your suggestion of the grandparents looking older then noticed the clothes. Carl would have been 28 in 1933 and the younger Charlie 15 , I’m leaning heavily to the circled Charlie being 15 ish , he’s very young looking in the group photo but looks a touch older in the seperate photo with the grandparents and Roy, I think explained if he was frowning into the sun but I don’t know of a way to appear younger , fresh faced in a photo 😉
What was your thoughts on Amy? That she appears too young?
@Sharon
Yes, I thought “Amy” might be in her 20s, but I’m not sure about any of it now. I still think “Charlie” is probably Carl. If you look at the Swinburne football photo he does look younger than the rest of the team – that’s to say if the boy people have identified is Charles. In the Webb family photo he could be anything from 15-24 in my opinion. Some blokes do look younger than they are.
My advice to you is to stay out of all the bitching on CM and elsewhere. I myself just get fed up with other contributors not acknowledging other people’s findings unless they are their mates. I don’t expect anyone to be on “my side”. Just keep on with your own thing and ignore the trolls,.
I wouldn’t actually like the “Charlie” photos to be from the mid ’30s as that would mean Sanders was right all along. Now that really would put my nose out of joint.
On the Hickey Taylor post I asked about Summer Hill (or Summerhill) residence of Charles Frederick Tomkinson sounding posh given it’s often mentioned by name on Trove and Jo replied confirming it was a dairy farm and Fred Tomkinson was probably a tenant, but then she confirmed that the original Summerhill homestead was quite posh and thought that maybe the Tomkinson family worked as farmers or labourers on the larger estate.
I have found that Charles Frederick Tomkinson of Allansford was appointed magistrate “to keep the peace in the Western Bailiwick of the State of Victoria” on May 13, 1931.
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/images/1931/V/general/100.pdf
Also, his daughter, Margaret Tomkinson, a tongue twister (1937), later (1947) married Albert George, second son of Mrs. and Mr. Payne Weerite.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11126384?searchTerm=margaret%20tomkinson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65243604?searchTerm=Allansford%20payne
“Rod Payne’s grandparents bought the property in 1918 and it had stayed in the family since then with his mother, Margaret, living there from the age of seven until she passed away last year.”
https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/property/property-of-the-week/summer-hill-at-warrnambool-offers-period-home-on-19ha-farmlet/news-story/26284611dc8720ddf0d7ac15097b2ff9
I thought that maybe the family photo was taken at Warrnambool given the fact that Stuart said Amy is in the photo and if she died after a ‘long illness’, and the family estate Summer Hill in Allansford might have been midway between Melbourne and Warrnambool?
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/521606b819403a17c4ba1018
Sanders, my findings are in now about the protrusion on the light pole that had you stumped for the first time in your marvelous life …. I believe it’s just a mark on the photo, or light, that protrusion isn’t attached to the pole, this I believe to be true. Adjourn the court.
I suppose it goes back to who organised the photo ‘event’ and therefore whose home was it near. Since the photographer was suggested as Gerald Keane and Leo is lying at the front it suggests some photo ownership. But yet it ended up with the Webbs as if it was organised by Russell.
How did the photo end up with Stuart Webb?
Something seems to have got Steve’s goat again. Oh well, shouldn’t be surprised, if I wanted to hear from an a$$hole I would have farted.
thedude (lower case) 747 (obsolete)
You seem to be mistaken Nick @ thedude in that dud be Con the fruiterer’s nephew not you, different stress on the ‘u’ and no ‘e’ . As for little sister Kylie Mole ‘so excellent’, never gave her a thought but yes I can see it in the same cleaver use of Mebun street speak. Thanks for pointing it out dud.. whoops there I go again, F….n Colonel blimp and true to flocken form I’ll own.
Poppins: not so fast Pops. In your correct assessment of said direction sign not being pointed though looking so to the naked eye, then “Houston we have a problem”. To take that case scenario to the next step, agreeing that the end be square; if it be attached on the blind side as appears, then it seems out of kilter going by the rules of paralax. Salient point being that, as with your mark on the photo, what’s to say that the sign itself might not be an illusion or more likely an old photo ID label come adrift from its original place. Best thing is that whatever the case for or agin, end of the day it’s all a moot point if you get my drift. PS: yes indeed I’ve had a marvellous life and thanks to folks just like you whom I’ve been fortunate enough to bump elbows with along the merry way.
Looks like the same beachside type tree:
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE885255&mode=browse
I’m struggling to find the right looking setting on the Sandringham and District Historical Society when searching Hampton (1740 odd images). Doesn’t mean I concede defeat, just means I haven’t found that hedge/brush/whatever it is…I’ll search Sandringham next. But there are plenty of images containing the same light, none of which come from the 20s, again doesn’t mean that’s not the case. This image showing one on the pier itself…
https://ehive.com/collections/9138/objects/1070071/on-the-pier-sandringham
Has anyone found the same lights used from any other collections in or outside of Melbourne?
Lurch: if you could point out any lights at all on the pole I’d be much obliged!
“milongal
on May 8, 2023 at 1:14 am said:
Something seems to have got Steve’s goat again. Oh well, shouldn’t be surprised, if I wanted to hear from an a$$hole I would have farted.”
I thought the new policy was to only let through (semi-)constructive comments. I am clearly wasting my time here. My fault for being sucked in again. You can have your old boys’ club back and stick it right up your a$$hole milongal. Good luck to the Melbourne “sirens” too.
I’ll leave you with one last thought. Sharon has suggested Aspendale for a possible location for the photos.
Could it be the old Aspendale Park Racecourse/Speedway?
https://localhistory.kingston.vic.gov.au/articles/93
https://localhistory.kingston.vic.gov.au/articles/488
http://www.speedwayandroadracehistory.com/melbourne-aspendale-racecourse-speedway.html
They clearly had lots of events like picnics etc there:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244473252?searchTerm=%22aspendale%20racecourse%22%20picnic
Some of the trees at Aspendale do look pretty windblown as well. And there were some doping scandals at the racecourse.
John Sanders: the pole closest to the photographer, it’s the next pole back. They extend 900mm from the pole minus the light fitting itself. So almost reaches halfway over the jetty.
Everyone: old Sandringham House (later Hotel, later demolished) across from the rotunda built in 1926 had an interesting hedge/tree combo. The opposite side of the road (from other photos of the era) has a roadway and fence (post and railing) against the hedge. The light pole doesn’t fit, maybe too early in history or Sandringham didn’t use the same model of lights. But would be good to know what the grounds of the hotel looked like. If there was a sign on the pole, then it would more than likely point in the right direction for Hampton.
https://ehive.com/collections/9138/objects/1069513/sandringham-house
And the rotunda being built…hedge making way for it in 1926…
https://ehive.com/collections/9138/objects/1059732/construction-of-the-sandringham-foreshore-rotunda
* John Sanders: not the pole closest…
Lurch: ‘Danger-Unstable Cliffs- Keep Clear’ says the sign attached at the front of a short pole which overlooks Werribee River Gorge from the botanic gardens. Not the oft touted original of course but in the same position and it’s attached at the front with Steve Hurwood’s unsighted “windblown” aforested waistland stretching out forever t’other side of the gorge. The large white modern square sign faces an identical setting to the one where Richard Webb’s birthday party group had gathered for fun, games and frivolity plus photos back in ’36…
milongal: well that was too easy; and amazing all it took to get rid of the spineless, thieving, ticket punching, self admitted (A$$hole), was a bit of how’s your father’ in the form of a good healthy fart. Jolly good show old chap and, bon chance to you for now Bob Nowak-count [sick].
How about Aspendale sea shore 25th February 1935 for the picnic photo?
1932 Messrs Webb donated bread to Springvale State school No. 3507
4 newspaper reports from 1935 to plan the school picnic. Messrs Webb’ s quote for bread is agreed upon.
Picnic is held on Monday 25th Febuary 1935 on the Aspendale Sea shore, ” swimming and basking in the sun were features, and many suffered badly burnt backs. More shade seemed to be needed for the blazing sun was terrific.”
Photo of the school and a class photo from 1932 or 1933 , school uniforms look similar to the boy laying in the front.
In 1935 Leo would have been 20 but Norman Frederick Webb would have been 13.
1935 fits in with clothes, sunglasses, Stuart’s Amy would have to be her look alike daughter Doris and should look about 15. Norma should look about 8 as the picnic was held early in the year and she was born November. Grandpa and Grandma would be turning 69 and 65 that year . Leo would be turning 20 but if it’s Norman in the front he would be turning 13 that year and still in the state school system according to the Springvale school site. Circled Charlie should look 16 and the moody looking fella next to him which is still my pick for Carl should look 29.
The 1934 picnic was held at Mordialloc but I can’t find any mention of Webbs in relation to that picnic.
The picnic/ sport day seems to be a huge community event. 1934 the shopping centre part of Springvale was to have a close day and the 1935 picnic had 600 attend.
May explain being in school uniform for a picnic, fashions, sunglasses etc. The newspapers mention Messrs so I’m think Richard and a son attended the meetings? Do we know where Russell liked after Amy passed away? Makes sense that he may live and or work at the bakery or that the kids may live with their grandparents for a period of time.
Both years a hall was hired and parents donated goods, offered transport and helped serve food and drink.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/nZgxWcgj1mlU
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/9wS0iURSFF5n
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/to8m42zYEOO2
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/soJyk6oljKWF
Sharon
Keep it up and the phonies will have little alternative but to take their stuff’n nonsence and high tail it to somewhere safe like Hampton with its ornate 1925 street lamps to drool over; And wonder how they came unstuck at the hands of one who under different circumstance might well have been saught out for a place in their cream team.
I think Norma is blond Norma in the picture and so it is likely 1929 (January to May 1929).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xra7C4asjY6ho9gw4rdBkVzXU1evRLd-/view?usp=sharing
John Sanders: I can’t seem to find what you’re describing at the moment, maybe you missed attaching the link you wanted to share.
By the way, I reckon my Sandringham House grounds is actually Melrose Street, so I won’t find my Goodenia ovata prostrate there.
Nick
Just checking you posted my last comment, only to find that you published yet another “ad hominem” attack on me – remember the “demented d*wnie” remark you gleefully let through without comment a while back.
You are a spineless jerk who gets your goons to do your dirty work. Particularly the serial stalker “John Sanders” who has to be THE most unpleasant, bigoted, psychopathic individual I have ever encountered. Typical pig. He’d do well in the Met Police today given all the recent revelations. The type of thug who spends their entire life bombarding anyone or everyone with their spiteful bile and hatred.
No wonder you can’t make up your mind about the most important questions in life. You have no moral compass and no sense of decency or responsibility.
Someone recently compared Sanders to Charlie Manson. You’re the Manson, just a gutless loser who rolls out the likes of poor old milongal – the most boring person on the planet – to carry out your (character) assassinations, inane grins fixed to their faces in the complete certainty that you/they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Enjoy your infantile conspiracy theories with all your mates. Of course Derek Abbott, Colleen Fitzpatrick and Stuart Webb are sending up their black helicopters to silence the opposition right now. And I’m a man in black so keep your eyes out in case a dark figure comes through your cat flap and wipes out your memory banks!
Steve Hurwood: I’m happy to confirm that I do indeed have total Manchurian mind-control over all the ragamuffin commenters here. For example, it’s me who forces John Sanders to go to the toilet twice each night – he has no choice.
I can see how the alternative scenarios – where people independently respond to you as if you were some kind of prick – would sound like 7chan conspiracy theories. But rest assured that that’s simply not the case.
Nick Pelling: quite correct, I have no choice re my evening toilet habits but, let me assure you and any other prick who may be concerned, fine people like lamentable Steve (A$$hole) Hurwood @ Bob Nowak et al; you’re well off the money with your “twice each night” claim by more years than I recall. Oh how I wish it were true.
John Sanders: clearly I will have to upgrade my mind-control powers yet further, in case anyone thinks I’m not taking the piss sufficiently.
Lurch and Sanders, here’s a closer look at the light fixture. This photo from Stuart is heaps clearer – before I thought it was three round globes but that was just an illusion, hey, it’s like a wide flying saucer shape. Magnifying goggles helps. H’mm, I think I’ve seen that somewhere before ….
https://imgur.com/lA5Qw8g
So – the photo should be dated somewhere between 1929-1934?
Banter aside .. I’m assuming the names written on the photo of Charlie, Roy etc were done by the TV production team and are not original .. perhaps they were written on the back of the pic … anybody know more?
Here ya go PeteB, the original pic in album off the telly.
https://imgur.com/ipAYFNq
And David Morgan has wonderfully put up the transcript from the Australian Story episode, here’s the quote re photos.
[22:50] And there’s so much more we don’t know. Here’s a family photo album from pa with all the mystery inside. Check it out… I started to look back through the family history and that particular wing I’ve been able to find the first photo of Charles when he was alive, to my knowledge. Nana’s actually written on this photo and named all the people.
I think this bigger photo was enhanced years later from a smaller photo, just how it seems to me.
Thanks Popps, can’t argue with that … but … we’re all the pics in that album similarly notated?
PeteB
I explained some months back to the usual acclaim, that the first Webb name inscriptions were way too high, hence the next set included a bold red Charlie and were a deal lower as to be closer to each subject. Handwriting was the same.
I visited this site on the recommendation of an historian who told me that there was some interesting use of Australian online archive platforms by people from diverse parts of the world world – engaging in particular with Trove and the National Archives of Australia. I seem to have stumbled, however, on a aggrieved, retired bus driver farting (metaphorically speaking) at a British veteran of the rave culture scene and another, subsequent, side conversation regarding an elderly (?) man’s evening bowel habits!
As two of those identified in the photo – Annie Grace and Amy Webb, both died in 1929 I would have assumed that the photograph could not have been taken after this date. If it was, that presents some rather bizarre scenarios!
Poppins: they were certainly mass produced, and from a point reproduced. One seller I came across had two of them, one cast iron and the other a much lighter reproduction. As for their use, they seemed to be the light of choice for Hampton, but I’ve seen them used in Oakleigh (which is interesting in itself being the town/suburb Richard & Eliza called home before heading to Springvale). I haven’t had too many other hits town/suburb wise. I reckon when all this is done and dusted, I might buy one of them lights.
Poppins,
Sure is a strange place to put a light, so high above the ground, blind side of the pole and no sign of any reflector spread shade groundwards. Got me beat, what does Stuart have to say?
Poppins: to me, I’m seeing the pole being on the opposite side of the road from the fam. Going near to far in order of appearance: grass, people, shrub, road, light pole, footpath, fence railing, hedge, windswept sticky trees.
Australian Association of Archivisits: well, yes. Sometimes it indeed feels as though the posts and comments here are responsible for 50% of the links into Trove. As for dating the family photo, we don’t have that much to work with beyond circular arguments. But we do what we can.
Nick
At least give me some credit. If you think I actually believe in all that Mancunian candidate stuff you must be barmy. I still don’t know the difference between MKUltra and MK Dons. I’m just a trickster who loves to wind people up and see if they can spot the tongue placed firmly in my cheek. Almost invariably they can’t.
You have made it perfectly plain pretty much since I made my first comment here that you regard me as a prick. You are probably right. I always did have a problem with authority figures even if they be put-upon moderators on a blogging site. And I admit I can be very abrasive when the mood takes me.
In my defence I can state a few things though. I don’t have any truck with racists and antisemites. I despise bullying and harassment, misogyny and homophobia. I don’t do sycophancy. I don’t attack people who can’t or won’t answer back (like Jestyn or Abbott). I don’t sit on the fence about issues that matter. I am always up for a robust, open and honest debate, even a bit of bad-tempered sledging when the occasion requires it. I’m not John Sanders.
I’ll take another break for now. But who knows where I might pop up in the future?
“In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.”
Good pick up Lurch and Sanders, ah ha, does that hedge have a plaque or statue in front of it, is that why the light’s directed that way? Look at the hedge, it’s been shaped like a mantel clock. H’mm, maybe something like this from England?
https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/w/images/Victoria_Gardens_and_Queens_Statue,_Brighton,_postcard_(CarterBros).jpg
Peteb, I don’t know how the other photos were notated, we have heard that some are marked on the back though.
I was looking at Keane, lawn tennis and 1929 in Grace Park. This is the view from Charles Street,
https://www.google.com/maps/@-37.8188953,145.0279813,3a,88.5y,188.15h,94.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFgjlMP_RydGxBugHT8thzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Steve Hurwood: to be fair, I myself don’t find you any more prickful than countless other commenters here, but you do seem to have something a talent for convincing others that your prickitudinosity levels are world-beating. Maybe that’s something you could monetise.
John S … point me at them amigo.
Those that come behind,
There’s a class of men (and women) who are always on their guard
Cunning, treacherous, suspicious feeling softly grasping hard
Brainy, yet without the courage to foresake the beaten track
cautiously they work behind the bolder spirits back.
If you save a bit of money and you start a little store,
Say an oyster-shop, for instance, where there wasn’t one before.
When the shop begins to pay you, and the rent is off your mind,
You will see another started by someone that comes behind.
——————————–
There are many, far too many, in the world of prose and rhyme,
Always looking for another’s ‘footsteps in the sands of time.’
Journalistic imitators are the meanest of mankind;
Pricks with nom de plumes like Hurwood, and his pen that comes behind.
If one strikes a novel subject, and then posts it in the mail,
They will rhyme and prose about it till our very own be stale,
One may write of inland regions when the wattle-boughs purfume
Til both author and his readers curse the stink of wattle-bloom.
They will follow in your footsteps while your groping for the light;
But they’ll race to get before you when they see you’re going right;
Then they’ll trip you up and baulk you in their blind and greedy zeal,
Like a stupid pup that hasn’t learned to trail behind your heel.
Take our loads of sin and sorrow…………&c.
@ Steve – it seems that I’m taking down the patriarchy, one small Trove link, one staunch punter at a time… It’s a strategy I didn’t even work on – perhaps one from the David Bradbury Handbook for Sandwich Makers of the Revolution! I know there are those who pine for wild and older days of conjecture and conspiracy who perhaps feel a bit rattled by all those green links and the emergence of a real historical and contemporary family…
Personally I miss the contributions of Pat, Misca, Angela and Furphy et al but as time goes on there is perhaps less we can usefully say! I think we’ve covered some interesting territory through the Webbs and their wider family networks – theatre, Freemasonry, the post war black market for cars, baccarat, gangsters of Prahran, schooling… I certainly feel as though I know parts of Melbourne, especially my South Yarra/Prahran neighbourhood, in different ways than I once did! If anyone ever makes it down here I’ll shout them a martini at the refurbished Royce Hotel (especially @ Dude 😉 ). Better get back to work, it’s not a cheap joint!
Yeah, I’ve got it … Stuart peeled back two pages in the family album and there was the photo of the foursome tagged by his grandmother in blue. Later on the media tarted everything up so there you go.
Game over.
@ Johnno
One of your most inspired contributions – take it to the end!
Take your loads of sin and sorrow on more energetic backs!
Go and strike across the country where there are not any tracks!
And we fancy that the subject could be further treated here,
But we’ll leave it to be hackneyed by the fellows in the rear.
Peter Bowes,
Why should I bother cobber, I’m a voice in the wilderness, lucky to get copy these days. When I get one past the keeper, it’s like being in a flaming war zone with no back up .. I’m lov’n it.
@We (Of The Never Never)
“The College Wreck who sank beneath,
Then rose above his shame,
Tramps west in mateship with the man
Who cannot write his name.
‘Tis there where on the barren track
No last half-crust’s begrudged
Where saint and sinner, side by side,
Judge not, and are not judged.
Oh rebels to society!
The Outcasts of the West
Oh hopeless eyes that smile for me,
And broken hearts that jest!
The pluck to face a thousand miles
The grit to see it through!
The communion perfected!
And I am proud of you!
The fool doth turn to Dusty Sanders,
The sly dog nuzzles up to Bowes,
The moron to Flash Gordon panders,
While the poor Pommie comes and goes;
And this old fact comes home to me
And will not let me rest
However barren it may be,
Your own land is the best!
And, lest at ease I should forget
True mateship after all,
My water-bag and billy yet
Are hanging on the wall;
And if my fate should show the sign
I’d tramp to sunsets grand
With gaunt and stern-eyed mates of mine
In the Never-Never Land.”
@Thee (of the never ever)
Steve Hurwood, imitater, agitater, master-baiter…..Cop you later second rater.
Excellent news for Nick and fellow CM contributors. I have decided not to let the likes of Beavis and Butt-Head – aka John Sanders and milongal – hound me out of here just yet. Can’t let the old boys’ clique win.
To address the constant barrage of lies and misinformation about my identity from a certain quarter, for proof of my real name I can turn to the unlikely source of Trove (I don’t have my own Wikipedia page like The Moderator):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/217492115?keyword=stephen%20hurwood
Some CM readers may have wearily skipped over my several irrelevant – and irreverent – posts mentioning my slight involvement in the Aboriginal art scene of the early to mid ’80s (actually that was more substantial than my involvement in the British rave scene, which ended before it really began in 1988 when I left Manchester).
I took those photos while I was in Sydney on my second (much shorter) trip to Oz in 1985 after the manager of the gallery, Gabriella Roy, agreed that I could hang around and approach any purchasers of the art or artefacts and request an interview with them to ask why they were interested in doing so. Unfortunately during the two days I spent there hardly anyone came in to the shop, and NO-ONE – not one sod – bought anything!
At least I did get to hang out there with the redoubtable Fay Nelson AM, mate of Charlie Perkins, Gary Foley and probably John Sanders who at the time had allegedly gone undercover posing as an Indigenous (TSI?) activist.
When I Googled Robert Nowak the first person I came up with was one Robert David Sanders Novak aka “The Prince of Darkness”, who like The Moderator has his own Wikipedia page. His mother was Jane Sanders! So it would seem that this Bob Nowak/Novak (or an impersonator) has close links with Dusty boy whereas I had never heard the name until the aforementioned accused me of being such (he also accused me of being Sue d’Nimh amongst others).
Jeannie Gunn OBE, a one hit wonder with ‘We of the Never Never’ spent all her 91 years living close by Carlton (Melb.) excepting for a year at a cattle station on the Roper River NT. Memories of this brief sojourn formed basis for her two books “Little Black Princess” in 1905 and her best seller “We” in 1907, the only two she ever had published. Jeannie Gunn never re-married after her first husband died in 1903 though she was a tireless supporter of troops in the WW1 and later for the welfare of Anzac veterans through Monbulk RSL Folks will recall Monbulk as the place where Charlie Webb liked to go camping. I just love this trivial pursuit stuff.
….but it does have its place and it surely ain’t here folks..imnsho.
@Jo
Right on sister! Despite your name I would never join some of the others in putting you down as a “Little Woman”.
Ah yes, I remember trendy Chapel Street in Prahran with The Jam Factory which like many places seems to have been somewhat gentrified these days. Think there was a shop there which sold Aboriginal art and crafts. I’ll almost certainly never make it back to Melbourne but if I do I’ll be requesting a few slugs of Wild Turkey at the very least and no martinis for this unreconstructed urban cowboy.
I note on Facebook that Stuart Webb has just responded to David Morgan that the tot is deffo Norma. If only he had listened to me a couple of weeks ago. Seems like Sharon Cochrane (with an e!) was the only punter who was interested in my comments.
Like you I think he seems like a good bloke and you won’t find me joining in the conspiracy theories from the usual suspects about him ganging up with Team Abbott etc etc yawn yawn. I only met one of my grandparents (and she was an miserable old cow from my mother’s – the Welsh – side of the family) and I doubt if I saw a photo of any of the others that I hadn’t seen before I would recognise them. In fact I haven’t a clue what my father’s mother looked like as she died in 1914, and that was before even “We(e) Sanders was out of short trousers!.
Has anyone found a link between William Thomas Keane and the children’s home at Somerton? He had an accident as a child and died in August 1947 in 130 Manifold Street – his mother’s home.
In May 1948 Gerald and Julia posted a notice.
@ Steve
Good to see you with your own Trove entry! Much more impressive than Wikipedia!
Yes, I replied to David Morgan & Stuart Webb on FB. If the young child is Norma Martin & the older woman is Eliza’s sister, Annie Grace, who lived with the Webbs, then the photo is most likely to have been taken in late 1928/early 1929. Annie died in April 1929 & is buried at Springvale near Amy (five graves apart). Thanks Misca for original information on Annie Grâce. Angela included burial details on Family Search.
Sharon had pointed out that Springvale State School had a very popular annual picnic often held at Aspendale. There are lots of reports in the Dandenong Chronicle of these picnics. There was also an International Order of Rechabites Picnic at Mordialloc in January 1929, with a large contingent from Springvale.
No takers for martinis at the Royce!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201026218?searchTerm=Springvale%20picnic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword=Springvale%20picnic
@steve hurwood, now Norma is confirmed it’s making the photo even more after 1930. She should appear between 6 and 8 as the school picnic was early 1935 and she was born late 1925. I forwarded the image to two websites, one that specialise in vintage fashions and one that dates vintage photos, both have suggested early to mid 1930’s and definitely after 1929 due to fashions of both men, women and the glasses.
Not sure if you saw my Spingvale picnic link, town shops closed and everyone went to Aspendale for a school picnic/ sport day. Check out these links on Aspendale, lots of hedges lining the streets, reproduction lights in Aspendale one street back from the beach,very similar to the one from the picnic photo. Not many Aspendale streets from the Collins Street directory from the 30’s also in the links. Are you any good at street signs?
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/lK5iIUBYMF6n
Jo,
Not so fast with your? Annie Elizabeth Grace ID “sister” [sick Steve]. Is that you agreeing with Steve & Stuart’s suggestion that she’s in the pic, hence the year having been confirmed late ’28 or early ’29 or; do you still hold with your own amended 1933 guesstimate. If Annie is present then where is she likely to be in the frame positionally, bearing in mind that she was only fifty one when she was laid to rest at Springvale.
David Morgan, that’s interesting about the tennis courts …. h’mm, it’s got me thinking – tennis courts often had hedges around them – bowling greens had hedges around them too, didn’t they – the Moonee Ponds one definitely did. What about croquet, they played that back in the day too ….. and why has Roy got a glove on, what’s that for?
Norma would have been about 4 in this photo. If you ever seen the mannerisms of a 4 /5 year old you will confirm this. There is no way she is either 6, 7 or above.
Hickey Taylor as suggested bears no resemblance to the theatre photos.
The way the matriarch or both families rally over Amy shows they are being supportive. Amy died of dropsy suggesting either kidney/liver or heart failure and according to the subsequent photos provided by the Webbs I am happy that
Amy is in the photo and the year being 1929
@ JS, I believe the photo is probably from early 1929 or late 1928, due to the presence of Amy Webb & probably Annie Grace. I’m basing Annie Grace’s presence on her resemblance with her sister Eliza & probability that she would be in the photo as she lived with the Webbs. If the older woman was Lottie Martin I’d expect her to be sitting with the Martins.
Jo,
OK you’re settled at last and I respect your flawed opinion. Insisting that 51 year old Annie is a better pick than 63 year old Lotte Martin even by the 1929 dating, is what David Morgan would call “a stretch”. So if you expect Lottie to be sitting with the Martins, then your wish be granted ie., she’s alongside Doris, who’s next to her mum Eliza who is in front of Danny Martin who inturn is next to Hickey Taylor @ Lurch. My own confident hunch being that the 1936 gathering of the clans was to celebrate 70th birthdays of both Charlotte Martha Martin and Richard August Webb, both born in 1866. I guess that might not suit the status quo Melbourne clique but I can’t help that.
No worries Johnno –
If photographs of either of the dear women emerge to prove you right & prove me wrong, I’ve no doubt you’ll let me know. They don’t seem like Table Talk gals to me so happy searching! I’ll not lose sleep over the matter my dear chappie & I’m pretty set on 1928/9
The sign behind seem to have XX YYY ZZZZ e.g. To the Park, East, West, North….
I think Sharon may be right about the picnic in Aspendale, but not in 1935. This one in 1928 seems more likely.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3914014/462449
Considering the fact that Amy (and probably Annie Grace, if it’s her) died in early 1929, they look healthy so I suppose it’s not 1929.
And that could explain why Leslie is wearing a hat, given that the Melbourne mayor and councillors were present.. And maybe Leo was wearing his school uniform to perform sports or musical activities.
The Dibb and Leslie comparison pictures.
https://imgur.com/DJgi3si
The problem I have with 1928 is Norma’s date of birth 11 November 1925
She doesn’t look like 27 months old. She also seems to be embarrassed about being spoken to by the photographer. Quite a complex understanding for a 2+year old. Even if March 2029 she seems mature for a 3-year-old.
Correction
The problem I have with 1928 is Norma’s date of birth 11 November 1925
She doesn’t look like 27 months old. She also seems to be embarrassed about being spoken to by the photographer. Quite a complex understanding for a 2+year old. Even if March 1929 she seems mature for a 3-year-old.
Pat:
I’m all for it, but I can’t see where Aspendale ever had that particular style of street light and/or street sign mountings. The street light mountings more so as it is an expensive piece of kit. Aspendale used more of a straight tube type of mount rather than the vine leaf cast and wrought iron work.
The problem we have here is that you could probably plonk any suburb into a trove search engine and find a school picnic in the 20s & 30s.
An example of such for the Hampton camp (me and Poppins – feel free to join us 😆)…subdivided and developed by wealthy businessmen to spend coin on street light mounts:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/267510960?
Jo,
Sorry to keep harping but, near proof is there for the asking. Daniel Martin was a dead cert to start with due, both to his his inlistment description and thread pic. compliments of Myheritage. Now can you see the likeness t’wixt my Danny and birthday girl Charlotte; sure enough they could only be a mother and her own son. An additional 1936 time frame clincher for mine be in the form of Norm Webb at fourteen in his school uniform, which in those days included shorts year round.
Look away for a tick any sensitive ladies on line. Looking to see if Charlotte Martha Martin nee Ragg and Richard August Webb’s birthdays were near enough for a joint 70 bash but no luck to date. Had me a bit of a naughty chuckle when I noticed that amongst Lotte’s many siblings, a sister Fanny Ragg [sic] was included; suspect that the likely lads of that era may have called her Chelsea …
@ Pat
I agree with you, Sharon and others that Aspendale, Hampton and Mordialloc – ie South Eastern bayside suburbs could be the go. The South Melbourne municipal picnic is less likely as the South Melbourne council area (inner south) isn’t one where any of the Webbs seemed to work or go to school (it covered South Melbourne and areas of contemporary Albert Park and Port Melbourne and is now part of the Port Phillip municipal council area).
I think Sharon’s choice of the Springvale State School picnic could be a good one but I would say 1929 or 1928.
For:
– The school picnic was an annual community event, usually in Aspendale or Mordialloc. (see Trove – lots of listings, especially in the Dandenong Chronicle)
– The Webbs took over the bakery in 1928, picnics are good for bakers, it would be good for the Webbs to have a sizeable family turn out to the annual picnic – a savvy PR move, also potentially an opportunity to show off the bakery and the community to the family (Springvale was still a new-ish community).
– Sharon mentions a hall – the photo of Richard and Eliza taken on the same day (visible in the video) could be outside a community hall.
Against: Leo in a Catholic school uniform from St Monica’s, Footscray.
Another option: The 1928 Centenary of Emancipation Roman Catholic picnic, at which the role of Catholic schools and school children was emphasised
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3977618?searchTerm=catholic%20school%20picnic%20moonee%20valley
This requires a bit of background: when the Victorian Education Act was passed in 1872 most churches and municipalities, which had formerly relied on “state maintained” grants relinquished their primary schools to the state. Victorian state education was designed to be free and secular. The churches maintained their secondary schools – especially what are today elite schools – Melbourne Grammar, Scotch College, Wesley College etc. There were only a hand full of state secondary schools until the twentieth century and very few until WWII. The Catholic church did not join the state system and maintained its schools with virtually no government funding until the 1970s. This was because the Catholic church wanted Catholic children to receive a Catholic education. It also assisted to keep Catholic churches full (themes that are reflected in the Trove article).
For:
– Leo in a St Monica’s uniform – did he have a speaking role? He has a prominent place in the family photo.
– Les Scott and may Frances Dibb – associations with Moonee Valley, where the picnic was held
– Emma Keane – travelling all the way from Camperdown
Against:
– the Catholic event was huge – you’d expect to see crowds, eg in the background
– many of those in the photograph were not Catholic (eg the Webbs, Russell and Amy)
– the vegetation and street sign suggest south eastern bayside suburbs (Hampton Pier/Jetty?) – eg Hampton, Aspendale, Mordialloc vs Moonee Valley racecourse
@ Lurch
I think we should “Go Fund” you to get one of those light brackets!
@ Jo
I’m a sparky. An ex ETSA one at that. I look up at street lights with a great deal of fondness.
Jo,
Always assumed that it was mostly marshes and lakes in back Aspendale beach, great for canoeing and family picnics but it sure don’t look nothing at all like the vaste expance of scrub country where the Webb and Martin families gathered to celebrate with Richard August and Charlotte Martha….,which reminds me that there ended up being not one but two Fanny’s in the Ragg family, one being Lotte’s sister and the other Fanny Martha nee Herbert who married her brother George. ….and your mention of the Springvale bakery that the Webbs only took over in late 1928; then I guess they couldn’t have supplied the holiday Chelsea buns for the Aspendale outing anytime before then, Right or not?
A few examples of St Monica’s school and parish holding an annual picnic at Hampton – for past and present students, but prior to our date range…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword=hampton%20picnic%20st%20monicas
@ Lurch – one of the most beautiful lamp posts in Melbourne is in Bromby Street – it was one of Melbourne’s last gas lamps, maintained by one of the gas companies until a few years ago (it’s partly why I know Bromby Street – I used to walk past the “magic” lamp post with my children when they were young. My son once dropped his beanie outside the Royce Hotel, the “skateboarder” beanie had a phone number in it, so they called us to come and collect it. My son quite liked the joint and started dropping the beanie on a regular basis – even throwing it through the front door on one occasion! I told him not to push his luck!). If I was handy with the imgur thing like Poppins I’d post a photo of the lamp post!
I realise you good folk are busy with light poles, homosexuals and various questions regarding the identification of those pictured in the family Webb photo … however I feel you may be missing the point.
Ok, back to science. Melbourne’s sun path diagram. Does anyone else know how to read these? I do, I have a customer who cracks it when the blinds don’t automatically close at the right time of day, each day of the year, and the sunlight hits the occupants in the eyes (I automate commercial buildings).
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/557250153886845697/
From the family image, it looks like the sun is casting a shadow 50° off the horizon and from 30° in front of them. You might draw some other conclusion.
Are we saying that this photo might have been taken in the morning, just as everyone has arrived at the location? Maybe someone in the group had their tripod and camera in back of the Studebaker, and they wanted to take group shots before headed into the picnic.
If so, it limits the orientation the hedge must be in order for the sunlight to appear how it does.
If it was the summer solstice, for the light to come in that way, it had to be taken at 10:30am with the hedge (L to R) running SW to NE.
If it was the equinox, for the light to come in that way, it had to be taken at midday with the hedge (L to R) running SSE to NNW.
The winter side of equinox, the sun is too low in the sky at all time for the photo to be taken during that time.
The summer side of equinox, realistically the photo could’ve been taken anywhere between 10:30 and 12:00, and the orientation of the hedge would run somewhere between SW to NE and SSE to NNW accordingly.
It’s also fair to eliminate anytime between 2nd last week of December and 1st week of February due to school holidays (I guess they still had school holidays back then).
Of course the photo could have been taken in the afternoon, but I’m sure it would be like herding cats to get a photo at that time (although might explain some missing people). What does everyone reckon? John will probably tell me to shove my sun path diagram up my backside.
SSE to NNW is the same orientation as the railway line toward Sandringham BTW.
I took the photo to my local historical society, they feel the image is 1930 due to fashions especially the shape of grandpa’s glasses, the lady there explained that the best way of dating old photos is cars, buildings and fashions as family resembles can’t be guaranteed due to generations looking so alike. The other thing she suggested was that Norma would be smaller than the average 8 year old today and she showed me donated clothes and photos of the children wearing those clothes that were named and dated : donated by family, Fred Smith 6 years old in his sailor suit type thing and the clothes were all smaller than sizes now. I’m in the primary school system daily in a grade one class , I have a seven year old grandaughter who helped pose for photos sitting like Norma in the photo so I could compare leg lengths, hands on her head etc. Other than Amy’s passing in June 1929 everything else seems to suggest early to mid 1930’s. Ive forwarded to photo to a UK vintage fashion site and a photo dating site and they also suggest early to mid 1930’s.
The big one is the sunglasses.
@David Morgan,
If the event happened at the end of 1928, Norma would have been 3 years old, which is consistent with her looks in the photo. As Lurch said, picnics happened all the time.
This is the input of Google Bard (or Bad?)
I asked it about Stuart’s photo I gave it the link. It said..
The women in the photo are wearing fashions that were popular in the 1920s. The most notable features of their clothing are the dropped waistlines, knee-length hemlines, and short hairstyles.
The dropped waistline was a new trend in the 1920s. It was a departure from the corseted, high-waisted styles of the previous decades. The dropped waistline created a more relaxed and youthful look.
The knee-length hemlines were also a new trend in the 1920s. They were a symbol of the flapper movement, which was a rebellion against traditional gender roles. Flapper dresses were often made of light, flowing fabrics and were decorated with fringe, beads, and sequins.
The short hairstyles were also a new trend in the 1920s. They were a symbol of the flapper movement and were seen as a way for women to express their independence. Flapper hairstyles were often bobbed or shingled and were often styled with curls or waves.
The fashions in the photo are a good example of the trends that were popular in the 1920s. They are a reminder of a time when women were breaking away from traditional gender roles and embracing a more modern and independent lifestyle.
Here are some additional details about the fashions in the photo:
The women are wearing dresses made of light, flowing fabrics such as chiffon, silk, and satin.
The dresses are decorated with fringe, beads, and sequins.
The women are wearing short hairstyles that are often bobbed or shingled.
The women are wearing makeup, including lipstick, eyeliner, and rouge.
The women are wearing jewelry, including necklaces, earrings, and bracelets.
The fashions in the photo are a reflection of the changing social and cultural landscape of the 1920s. They are a reminder of a time when women were breaking away from traditional gender roles and embracing a more modern and independent lifestyle.
The writing on the sign on the lamppost is “Glenelg”. Glenelg is a suburb of Adelaide, South Australia. It is a popular tourist destination, known for its beaches, cafes, and shops. The photo you linked was taken in Glenelg in 1926.
The sign is a cast iron post with a white enamelled plaque. The plaque has the words “Glenelg” written in black letters. The sign is located on the corner of Jetty Road and The Esplanade. It is a popular spot for tourists to take photos.
Glenelg, that’s funny. We can safely eliminate Glenelg, both as the location and what the sign says.
In the last week I’ve had replies from 3 independent sources, one a vintage fashion website, the next a website that help date vintage photos using historical knowledge, this morning I received a reply from a muesum of ocular history and all 3 say early to mid 1930’s. This mornings email reply from the ocular muesum has it being closer to 1935. I’m putting my trust in those with expert knowledge.
David Morgan,
Nice pictures of what could easily pass for Springvale Rd. bakery prior to Webb’s takeover in ’28 Nick Pelling’s latest thread. Seems like the large overhead Bakery sign is an add on for effect and brings to mind your ‘Bard ‘ sourced cast iron lamp post mit enamelled Glenelg plaque inset corner of Jetty Rd. & Esplinade (Seawall). Glenelg may appear reversed but that can be put diwn to paralax error or similar.
Sharon: I wonder whether your sources factored in for likelihood that wearing apparel of the depression era of 1930/1935 might not have been reflective of fashion trends at differing social levels.
Peteb,
Your..”however I feel you may be missing the point.”, not so much ‘may’ but a dead certainty be my take. In fact the “you” (you’s) to whom you’re referring were never even part of the program. Said bunch of FB infiltrators having come over to CM by invitation to start the hunt for of Charlie Webb. This in consequence of poor Jerry Somerton’s relegation to urban myth status courtesy of the all cashed up and well supported band of SM quislingites.
Lurch,
I happened to be a bit of a bright spark meself as a nipper. I was known as Vegie, short for Vegemite at state school eh. Not due to me tan or the spread I had on me bread every day, nor that some claimed I was a mental cripple; No, none of those, it was simply because I was such …a happy little vegemite (and) as bright as bright can be ☆☆☆…just like thee ☆☆☆ “Sparkie ETSA”.
@sharon C
I don’t think you told them that two people in the photo are dead in 1929. They might say 1928 or 1929.
For comparison, this is an image from Easter 1929 compared with Freda in the family photo.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vwFAj50OiruT2fAG_OGeyPg-FZ0SijI6/view?usp=sharing
@ Lurch – you’ve blinded me with science! What you say makes a lot of sense! I’m familiar with the sun path diagram in relation to building & planning applications & it’s use to predict shadow and overshadowing… In relation to train lines, Hampton is on the Sandringham line & Aspendale & Mordialloc are on the Frankston line. I agree with morning as there is a photo of RA later in the day without a tie (visible in the video).
@ Sharon – as Pat has said previously, we might expect to see Ruby Webb in the photograph if it was taken in or after 1933.
I’m wondering whether it was a St Monica’s picnic & whether Russell’s children are off somewhere with Jack Keane – eg down at the beach, taking part in an egg & spoon or sack race… I wonder whether St Monica’s could tell us if they had a picnic in late 1928/early 1929… Leo is wearing a St Monica’s uniform & Jack was also a student at St Monica’s school from 1929-1931. The picnics involved both the school & broader church community (Trove mentions for earlier years).
David Morgan,
Which one’s Freda if you don’t mind my asking mugger?
Jo,
Must say I Just love your attention seeking, true to form proofless assertions, eg., pushing Leo Keane with his drab nondescript uniform to the front of the highly improbable 1928 St. Monica’s school picnic queue at Aspindsle, no doubt about it at all.
I’m taking a bet each way on:
Melbourne Cup day, November 1928, Hampton
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3967659?searchTerm=Melbourne%20cup%20picnic%20hampton
Or
St Monica’s picnic, early 1929, Hampton
@ Johnno my money is on you contributing the 500th comment on this thread, with a trifecta if it includes a swift dig at someone, that being me.
@JS
Freda (dark hat in photo with a feather or perhaps an unused train ticket in the brim – a family tradition)
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LR91-RM8
https://www.testmybrain.org/
As a lot of what is discussed here is facial recognition, matching this person to that photo, this is a great self test to see where our own strength are 🙂
Byron Deveson,
Care to elaborate whence your mistaken claim re Stuart Webb’s having been a former Navy Captain evolved . Stuart never mentioned it on his own courtesy visit to CM shortly thereafter and in light of better knowledge now I’m somewhat perplexed. As ar as I know the man was never in the service and whatsmore his impressive credentials including an extensive CV are posted on Linkedin for all to admire.
Face matching Aps. Expert svp.,
Some obliging soul might like to compare the fair haired gent far left above Eliza Webb and the older lady two down from her, below be-suited ‘Thing’. I’m rather confident that a high range match confirming a mother & son relationship will be the likely outcome. Daniel and Lotte Martin’s facial features be unmistakable in my jaundiced view but, admittedly I’m a Robinson Crusoe in most of my offerings.
Jo , what suburb was St Monica’s school located please?
David Morgan
I meant the other photo, sorry.
https://imgur.com/ACAQzd0
https://imgur.com/2mXbFlt
@ Poppins and Lurch
Here is my entree to the world of imgur! The beautiful lamp post in Bromby Street, just metres from Charlie and Doff’s old place! Ok, its gas and no longer lit … but it’s beautiful!
@ Sharon – St Monica’s is in Footscray – the church and school are still there.
@ Johnno – I’m giving you a hand up to that 500th comment on this thread, otherwise you’d have to sprout a hell of a lot of Lawson to get there!
Wowee, fabulous photo of Freda, she’s wonderful. Thanks David Morgan, h’mm, I’d say very, very close in time to the family photo.
@Sharon C,
Myself, I have poor facial recognition – it was what got me interested in facial recognition. I use software such as Betaface, MxFace…etc..
Alone facial recognition can just say a person was exactly like that person (so the person, their twin or a doppelganger) or in some cases quite a lot like the person.
For example, Nazi pilot Rudolf Mons was so much like Carl’s corpse that he was more like him than most other images. Also in the case of the 1970 Isdal Woman a woman named Jane Wallentine was more like the corpse than all other images I had located. In Rudolf Mons’ case it was assumed he died off/on the coast of Algeria. In Jane Wallentine’s case it is ‘assumed’ she is still alive though no effort has ever been made by any media group to physically contact or locate her. It was accepted in 1970 by the police that a postcard was proof she was alive having just been identified as the body by staff in a hostel. Unlike the Norwegian police, I myself sought out other proof she was alive after 1970.
The point is – looking like or being a doppelganger is not proof you are the person. You need other evidence.
@Sharon
Seems like most punters missed my 8 May comment on this thread. I’ll get loads of stick from the likes of Fred Flintstone (JS) but I’ll quote myself briefly:
“I’ll leave you with one last thought. Sharon has suggested Aspendale for a possible location for the photos. Could it be the old Aspendale Park Racecourse/Speedway?…They clearly had lots of events like picnics etc there…” Unfortunately I blotted my copybook by saying that there were some doping scandals there. I hadn’t checked the articles properly – that’s not correct.
As for dating the photo, I take your points about the fashions etc, but for me roughly 1928-1931 seems most likely and I’m still (just about) plumping for 1929. Norma looks about 4 to me, definitely not 7. If “Charlie” is Carl he’s certainly not older than 24 or 25, and looks younger, which is why I initially thought Stuart might be right when he said the photo was from 1925. If Amy isn’t in the photo of course it could be 1930 or ’31. Ages ago I had the kid at the front as Jack Keane although I did say it could be Leo.
If we could establish who the other people in the photo are – and Poppins’ suggestion that the guy being pranked by Charlie is Leslie Scott’s Essendon mate Frank Dibb (not Dibbs as some seem to think) seems reasonable – that might help us firm up the likely date.
For loads of photos of fashion and Melbourne life in the ’20s and ’30s see Table Talk on Trove, eg:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146724999?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FT%2Ftitle%2F713%2F1929%2F01%2F03%2Fpage%2F17665083%2Farticle%2F146724999
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146725773?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FT%2Ftitle%2F713%2F1929%2F02%2F14%2Fpage%2F17665473%2Farticle%2F146725773
Just click on ” Table Talk (Melbourne, Vic. : 1885 – 1939)” at the top of the page (in blue) to browse all the available editions page by page up to 1939.
Gladys was a fabulous dresser with plenty of different outfits described in the newspapers – she appears to be wearing a uniform in the photo, and Leo is in school uniform – and has Hickey tagged along with Gerald because it’s near where they work …… random wonderings.
Can someone put up a an old map showing exactly where everyone was living/working in 1928/29, a map that shows parks, etc …. that would be superb – if not, I could try if I knew all their exact addresses?
Jo, that lamp post is truly lovely, well done with your Imgur debut, good on ya.
Sharon, we haven’t been able to identify the school blazer yet, need to find that one with a cross on it, if it’s Leo it’s either St Monica’s Footscray or Christian Brothers Tech South Melbourne, or per chance some other thing he belonged to …
@David Morgan , fully agree, I’m on another site where people send in family photos for dating or information and it’s amazing how a grandmother can look identical to a grandaugher or aunties and nieces. Important to use other things, fashions, cars, buildings, when things were invented etc and bring all those clues together. Even harder when you having families using same names so you have 2 Charlie’s with a 13 year age gap and two named Doris with a 17 difference, then Norman and Norma with 3 years. I’m hoping the picnic was a public event and if we can find another photo with some of the Webb family also in that photo it may help to confirm who is who.
@poppins,
One good way to build visual relationships between data is Flourish (it’s free). It allows you to designate data groups e.g. name, city, even date if you want and then it will show a network diagram and you can link say Carl to Glenelg and then Glenelg to Jo Thompson. then Glenelg to December 1970.
e.g.
Carl —- Glenelg —- Dec 1970
except they will be labeled ‘bubbles’ that move/float around as new data is added.
@Poppins,Jo:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/185554682?subject=J.C.%20Williamson%20%28Firm%29%20–%20Photographs.
Did someone say this image showed Mr Hickey and maybe Mr Scott?
Trove has it as John Tait, Lucien Wurmser, Anna Pavlova, Victoria Dandre, Mieczyslaw Pianowski and Charles Westmacott.
@ Poppins this is from memory, so sorry if there are any mistakes, for 1928/9 I have it as:
Webbs – Charlie, Roy, Eliza and Richard – Springvale from 1928, Oakleigh to 1928
Keanes – Footscray
Emma Keane – Camperdown
Scotts – Essendon area
Martins – Geelong family living near Essendon
Hickey Taylor – South Yarra
Russell and Amy Webb – Geelong
@ Sharon
No, no-one ever said that, there are a whole bunch of photos of Hickey on another Ciphermysteries thread: http://ciphermysteries.com/2023/04/29/hickey-taylor-a-photo-timeline
I suppose if you were thinking about who would be where on that day – it would be strange for Hickey Taylor to happen to be at the same event as the family unless it was on his doorstep in Fawkner Park.
Prahran Friendly Societies cricket, March 1929?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165005543?searchTerm=%22fawkner%20park%22
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/wWJ4yqbdw5w1
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/sv2h8zoeZBLH
Jo, these were the posts.
Maybe we can add these into the mix:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232327211?searchTerm=bakers%20picnic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3981342?searchTerm=bakers%20picnic
This one’s sweet:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203259467?searchTerm=bakers%20picnic
They didn’t mess around with their picnics, hey, classy, they hired paddle steamers for ’em; how wonderful, big family events with sports, etc ….
Thanks Jo and David (just joined Flourish)
These also have about three pages in each issue showing latest fashion sketches:
I have to say, some of the ads in these old magazines are seriously laugh out loud items now …. Curly Pet being one of them, lol, I nearly choked on my biscuit when I saw that one 🙂
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-389050376 just click on the Browse this collection
Sanders, they do look similar, h’mm ….
@ David – I know Fawkner Park very well & don’t believe it was there. On friendly societies, I did wonder about the 1929 Rechabite picnic in Hampton, but apparently there isn’t a known non-drinker emphasis amongst those in the photo.
@ David – I meant to add that Fawkner Park was historically a gay meet up place, probably less so now, you’re more likely to see well dressed male couples running or walking pedigree dogs. Hickey’s two houses on Fawkner Street (presumably rented out) are very close to the park.
I have emailed the priest at St Monica’s, enquiring if they held a picnic at Hampton in 1928/9 and will provide details of any reply received.
Ah ha! Is this our Gladys and Leslie holidaying at Queenscliff, December 1928?
Aberfeldie’s was basically Essendon. Maybe they all met up when the bakers picnicers arrived ….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146724950?searchTerm=queenscliff%20l%20w%20scott
Howdy partners. Let’s get Derek Abbott involved in the lamppost debate. According to an article by Graeme Wood in The Missal, 5 June 2015 (linked to CM by B Deveson in 2016):
“Obsessions tend to find Abbott. He has, by his own account, been happily consumed by them since he was a child in London. Many were scientific: At the age of 10, he says, he requested a copy of the British Pharmacopoeia, a technical manual of pharmacology. At 15, he began traveling all over London and researching the history of old lampposts and letter boxes.”
I often wondered why, of all the Australian cities I visited, Adelaide was the only one I didn’t like apart from the wretched Gold Coast – which ain’t a real city anyway. Derek puts it well:
““It’s a bit like Phoenix,” Abbott said, a little apologetically, as we drove through his city. When the beach isn’t in sight, the comparison feels about right: Adelaide and its environs are mostly flat and arid, with the suburbs giving way to desert. Even its urban grid recalls the American Sun Belt, with orderly streets characteristic of a place whose city fathers left nothing to chance.”
He also called Jestyn an airhead:
“She was “a free spirit”, he [Abbott] said, “a slightly airheaded, arty type.” She and her husband seemed mismatched in some ways, with Prosper obsessed with cars and his wife interested in art, and some people I spoke with, including Abbott, suspected that they were not physically intimate, though they remained married until Prosper’s death in 1995.”
Interestingly, according to Wood, Roma Egan “told Abbott, darkly, that her ex-mother-in-law had been a woman with secrets, and that Jo — like the young Abbott — had an obsession with pharmacology.” A swig of ether anyone?
Of course Gunsmoke’s Festus wasn’t a fan:
“Feltus [sic] regards Abbott as a grade-A pest and a bane of serious investigators. “If this were a different era, I could see him in a chuck wagon going through Indian territory, selling moonshine, and being left alone because he’d look half-crazy,” he told me.”
I can just picture Festus squaring up to Abbott and spitting out “Get out of Dodge, you no good limey ballyhooin’, honey-fugglin’ saddle bum. and take yer dirty mitts off Miss Kitty’s fine as cream gravy boggy tops or else I’m gonner put you straight in that there bone orchard up on Boot Hill”.
@Jo,
I was thinking of family gathering inertia and why Hickey might not be bothered to attend unless it was on his doorstep or perhaps he needed to keep in with Gerald to get acting parts and make money. I don’t see Hickey as a car driver and even Carl seems a late developer. Whereas you could see Roy racing about in a car and helping out the father-in-law with the escape from the bank.
It is interesting Dorothy didn’t mention Carl taking her in his car or not taking her in his car on holiday. Her father had a car. I can imagine Dorothy’s pals had cars.
I suspect they both lied about living in Domain road on their wedding certificate as she only said Bromby street on the divorce document. Perhaps they wanted their future children to think they were always upper middle class.
Ah, the Bakers Picnic in 1929 was in February, Gladys and Leslie wouldn’t
have stayed there that long. And whoops, I seem to have a habit of double clicking wrong links and putting them up. Poor form, and forgiveness is asked for, it’s just gross negligence. Will be more vigilant hence forth when I have a swag of links to choose from. Cheers
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/249960044?searchTerm=bakers%20picnic
This Richmond Schools Picnic in Hampton, it did have a Mrs Scott taking out 2nd with ‘partner’ in the Ladies’ Novelty Race:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268397718
Are we sure Leo didn’t go to one of the schools listed?
And while on topic of Hampton and Richmond Schools Picnic, it was the 23/3/1929…a day or two after the equinox. Looking at my post about ‘Melbourne’s sun path diagram’ back on the 15/5/2023, I mentioned this:
“If it was the equinox, for the light to come in that way, it had to be taken at midday with the hedge (L to R) running SSE to NNW”.
A logical precise location for this would be in front of Beach Road at Triangle Park. It runs in a SSE to NNW direction. It is is also necessary to walk past this from the train station to get to the likes of the oval at Sandringham Beach Park Reserve, and also offers some respite from the hustle and bustle of 5000 or so people at the main event, especially to have a picnic lunch at midday.
This is a photo from 1925 overlooking a relatively informal Triangle Gardens, noting Beach Road in the distance, from front to back in order: road, poles, fence, hedge, ti tree:
https://images.ehive.com/accounts/9138/objects/images/4f4ed782ea7d4be1aa6f74a0ebf72155_l.jpg
As for the sign, looking at some people’s handy work in enhancing the photo (on FB) it points to what could be Hampton Sheds. I came across the following regarding the state (in general) of the Bayside Resorts shelters and dressing sheds:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203108763/18958570
The only such shelter/sheds I’ve found of this era thus far is in B J Ferdinando Gardens a short 300m walk along Beach Road, and just happens to be the direction of the street sign. And I don’t mean to harp on, but with street light and street sign mounting brackets both consistent with the Hampton area.
Hmmm interesting.
@lurch,
Good research. But would workers also have to have a holiday like Easter?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244305268?searchTerm=%22equinox%22
They were trying to fix it at the 21st March?
Easter was the following weekend. The 23/3/1929 was a Saturday
Sorry my bad, the actual event would have been Wednesday 18/3/1929
How many in the photo would’ve been working day jobs for t BFF e photo to have to be a weekend or public holiday?
@ David Morgan:
I am going well aren’t I? No I haven’t had a fall 😆
Wednesday 20/3/1929 was the school picnic day in the article.
Looking at this another way. What public holiday or weekend day would warrant a school uniform?
The thinking is that there are some people in high places with council that seemingly go out on engagements, there are people in production companies, there are bakers that do their best work at 3am and wrapped up by mid morning. And the norm was for the ladies to manage the household.
@ Lurch
What’s your opinion of the possibility of Melbourne Cup Day, November 1928?
I’m also hoping for a reply from St Monica’s for January 1929. Both for Hampton.
Bakery workers and like traders don’t have too many days off which I think I may have mentioned once or thrice. That means weekends & other holidays would make attendance at picnics or like festive events and charades under present discussion, a bit of a struggle for some in the photo, particularly the Webbs.
Poppins- this one’s for you!
Who invented the foldable umbrella and when?
Of course it was 1929, by a Viennese art student who came to Australia as a WWII enemy alien, deported from Singapore and interned with her family at Tatura- Slawa Horowitz, later Duldig, mother of tennis ace Eva De Jong- Duldig and grandmother of soprano Tania De Jong.
There are a few Viennese in our SM story so far. Will Sher, neighbour Helmut Newton and even the Vienna Boys’ choir who were supported by St Thomas Aquinas church in Bromby Street.
I went to see the musical Driftwood on Saturday, about the Duldig family. It is fabulous! Their home in East Malvern is now a sculpture studio and house museum, featuring all of their Viennese furniture, I visited it a few years ago, one of my daughters won a primary school pottery award from one of the Duldig Studio’s school workshops.
The musical gives a good sense of life experienced by European Jewish families who found themselves in Melbourne in the post war era.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/archived/bydesign/who-invented-the-first-folding-umbrella/2918332
There are no folding umbrellas in the family photo!
Lurch: Your precise claim of “1925” for some photograph overlooking Triangle Gardens, Hampton seemed a little too willing for mine so I checked the source. Said pic was taken by Claud Frederick Awburn from his rose garden and the date given by Sandringham Historical Society is 193-? not 1925, and no surprise. Bearing in mind overall importance of dating the album picture, seems that you opted to favour the the FB 1925-29 (Amy) estimate. “My bad” ain’t gonna work this time pal, wanna come clean or stick with the porky pie? PS. Nice pergola what?
John: nice to see you back in this thread. I had 1925 in my head from some other photo. Apologies. The date is not what I’m articulating. More so the layout of the gardens with Beach Road and it’s expected SSE-NNW orientation in the background and it’s strikingly similar vegetation beachside of the road, as well as the gardens’ positioning between the train station and the Sandringham Beach Park Reserve (where the main event could be) and general proximity to the reserve making it an ideal photo spot without the foot traffic interrupting.
Jo: for Melbourne Cup day the road behind the group shot would have to be running in a trajectory between SSW-NNE and S-N (going L-R) at 11:00 or a trajectory between E-W (going L-R) at 15:00. The later is more likely if it were Melbourne Cup day, but gee, it’s close to race time.
As for the January date, are they even at school, or is it first day of high school? Trajectories of the roads would be very similar at the same times as Melbourne Cup, for the shadows presenting that way.
From mine, I see a SSE-NNW trajectory of the road in the background, making Beach Road the likely candidate. And that can only happen around midday on or around either equinox given the shadows. But that’s just my opinion on it. I think we are damn close to the mark though.
@ Lurch – so between 23 September 1928 – 21 March 1929 – ie the spring & autumn equinox dates for those years, but the closer to either of these dates the better? You’re correct the school picnic would be more likely to be February or March if school term dates were similar to today’s.
I could go with Melbourne Cup Day apart from Leo’s school uniform!
@Lurch/JS
I think the photo would have to be a Sunday and perhaps some Catholic school-related event. If not, they picked Leo up from school on the way to an event which would time limit it to around 5pm and he would have to be home for bed for a following school day. In bed perhaps for 9/10pm in 1928/29 and similarly for the bakery workers?
David Morgan
Minor problem with the two distant water towers in the happy snap; unless they were on Swan Island, although that might be a tad too far to the Sth East, maybe Point Nepean would be a better bet. Forget about the train and the city skyline for now as that would mean the opposite direction for Lurch’s estimated equinox and prevailing shadow trajectories . Oh and, I believe you’re mistaking Leo Keane for Norman Webb again, The fourteen year old had no problems with any “Catholic school related event” as he was not a Papist.
The screen grab shows the hall from the picnic day, there is some sort of vent at the front. Looks like a hanger or boat shed or foreshore hall?
Leo had flying experience at the club which is where Essendon airport was later built, the club house had the large grassed area and hedge/ shrubs from the clubs website photos. Haven’t had time to look further into it yet as I’ve 2 extra little people move in.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/ve8Yzs42Y0Z0
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/kQeqQh4xFx6B
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/weKO7i7GYCUX
The clubhouse was the small house looking structure in the left of the photo.
Interesting article on children’s height increases over the last 50 years.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1395040/Theyre-taller-better-fed-fewer-fillings–todays-children-LESS-healthy-50-years-ago.html
The average child’s height has increased by between 1cm to 3cm (0.3in to 1.1in) every decade over the past 50 years, says Professor Mitch Blair, officer for health promotion at the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. So children today are on average between 5cm and 15cm (2in to 6in) taller.
David: I would tend to agree with the Sunday as being a possibility with the Catholic schools. As a collective we could get our protractors out and measure the sun’s position off the horizon. With my best efforts I measured 50° off the horizon which makes it an impossibility for 5pm at any time of the year in Melbourne. 4:10pm would be the latest it can be in the day for the sun to be so high (summer solstice) unless we are talking 1971 or later as DST allowed that to be 5:10pm. At 4:10pm on the summer solstice, the camera person would have to be facing SSE direction for the angle of the sun from in front of them to cast that sort of shadow. That would mean you are trying to find a road with a street sign pointing in the WSW direction, and also a seaside landscape behind it.
As a general note I found it interesting the Hampton Hotel Gardens (albeit significantly earlier) has the same looking creeping bush like there was to the left hand side of the family shot. I mean I don’t think it’s it because the date palms are too imposing.
https://ehive.com/collections/9138/objects/1058904/elsa-and-anne-schmidt-with-members-of-iser-family-of-bendigo-in-gardens-adjoining-the-hampton-hotel
@Lurch
AI
Yes, you can measure the angle of the sun in a photograph by using the following steps:
Find a shadow in the photograph.
Measure the length of the shadow.
Measure the height of the object that cast the shadow.
Use the following formula to calculate the angle of the sun:
angle of sun = arctan(length of shadow / height of object)
only freda’s shoe can be an object with a size that could be measured e.g. if she was size 5 in shoes etc – but the shoe is not upright. So another trigonometry exercise to find the height of the shoe at that angle.
It’s the sort of thing a bright student of mathematics would solve.
Going back over some old posts I have to say I agree with that old devil Bob Nowak in relation to the dating of the photos. Some people don’t like this cutting and pasting business, but it saves the reader ploughing through hundreds of posts, and if you don’t like it DON’T READ IT!
From the ‘My name is Charles…Charles Richard Webb’ thread:
BN: “I’d stick my scrawny old neck out and say the women’s fashions in the group photo point to it being taken in the mid to late ’20s, very early ’30s at the latest. As Sonya points out cloche hats were all the rage then. See for example:
https://www.vintag.es/2014/09/vintage-australian-fashions-of-1920s.html ” (Dec 13 2022)
John Sanders had to join in the fun:
JS: “Bob Nowak: Sure I said it already but, if you want to see for yourself, that includes other doubters; the gang of four dog tags as depicted in the doco preview are not in the same place as shown in the full show. It’s clear as mud but you’ve got to be sharpish to get it on camera. If that makes Stuart a fibber then so be it, not for a lying prick like me to say eh?” (Dec13)
BN: “The photo you see in Australian Story is the original (or a copy of the original) and the photo Nick provides (the one used in the doc preview) has been digitally altered for “effect” – a case of gilding the lily or giving the boys and girls in the design dept at ABC something to do to justify their astronomical salaries. The “Webbs” inscription can clearly be seen on the top right of the photo in the film and you don’t need to have the eyes of a hawk to see it – you just need to know how to use the pause button.” (Dec 15)
BN: “I think (as Poppins stated earlier) the tot in the front row with her hands on her head is the daughter of Daniel and Doris Martin, Norma Mary, born 1925, sitting next to her mum Doris Maude (with her husband Daniel behind).” (Dec 26)
JS: “Bob Nowak: mere speculation of course, all apart from Leslie who at 34 by your reckoning appears to be nursing the stump of his amputated left arm…Of course the little girl could be Norma by your 1928/29 date reckonning, but not if the shot was taken any later.I’ll stick with a late thirties time frame that I”m sure all but you will find only fit for scorn, much to my delight.” (Dec 27)
BN: “If you were a little more forthcoming with your discoveries it might help us all. Leslie William Scott (born 1895) did have an amputation of the hand at the wrist due to being wounded at Gallipoli so he is probably the bloke on the right of the photo (as we look at it). Daniel William Martin was also severely wounded in the Great War, in Belgium, in his legs.” (Dec 27)
JS: “Bob Nowak: gotta take particular care of my ‘discoveries’, with tea leafs like dead Steve Whatsisface & Ors ready to stake their claim if given the chance. In re 44 year old Leslie Scott’s timely appearance in the pic, aided by your most reluctant but thankful confirmation of his ID, hopes are that the likes of Stewart Webb, Derek Abbott & Ors. will be forced into dumping their faulted 1920s era Webb family time frame and come clean. Both of the posted group photos’ late 30s dating is made abundantly clear in the nonchalant manner of several subjects (not Lurch), this as opposed to either artificial poses or dead pan stares one might associate with the ‘boring twenties. As for your three year old ankle biter, she doesn’t have to be Norma Martin and my guess is she is more likely to be a Keane kid if there is one to spare.” (Dec 28)
JS: “….as for Danny Martin, the other wounded digger, ‘Lurch’ looks to be a sho in at five feet six and a half with sallow comp. & brown extras (NAA) . Could be Doris sitting in front of him wearing the cardigan, she looks about 40 which would put puts your own selections to the test. The little ‘tyke’ has gotta be a Keane, though which one; we could take a punt on sisters Joan or Hillary Bailey but it could be neither. Pat spent a bit of time on the Keanes before the pics appeared so might have some potential dates of birth around 1934 give or take a year.” ( Dec 28)
BN: “Bellies, willies, bollocks and arse
Bloomers, knickers, panties and bras
Bogeys in bottles and turds in jars
Farting and belching
Frotting and felching
Squirming and squelching
Bum titty titty bum titty boo
Nowak can be a lot ruder than you!” [a tribute to Flanders and Swann] (Dec 28)
From this thread:
JS: “If you think for a NY minute that I wouldn’t have been hard at it sussing out the infuriating Webb/Keane kith & Kin in NAA records for both world wars, then you underestimate by resolve. This particular initiaive occurred long before you got wind of it, indeed prior to my exposure of your on line shenanigans in another guise and inviting you to post under your real name which I had reason to recall…I’d checked out Dot Webb’s old man Danny Martin too, even before I picked up the bigger break with Les Scott’s missing arm and why not, after all Daniel wasn’t wearing shorts in the photo so his battle scars were not visible…..If I don’t report results on this forum the reason is elementary, it’s because there be no point in cluttering up the CM site with any more useless trivia than is asolutely necessary. Got it?” (Dec29)
JS: “Nick Pelling: No! No! for crying out loud! You’ve misidentified Dot and Dan Martin simply due to their positioning close to the child who you believe is their daughter Norma. I’m saying your suffering from an accute case of confirmation bias and I’ll tell you why; It’s because the Martins are most definately the couple way down the other end of the picture, Dot sitting between her mum and mum-in-law Mrs. Lottie Martin and Daniel behind them on the end. As for the child you’d better wait until we can sort her out, one thing is clear though, had she been little Norma she’d more than likely with her parents….See you in the court of public opinion Nick P. where you’re certain to hold a distinct edge over the nasty colonel ( now private).” (Dec 29)
BN: “You appear to have been completely discombobulated by my brilliant polemical poem yesterday which surely belongs in Nick’s favoured Palgrave’s Golden Treasury. No answer to my skewering of your Werribee nonsense? No acknowledgment of MY discovery that Leslie Scott had lost his hand at the wrist? You thought he had lost his arm. Dumbo! You rely on magical thinking, rumour, innuendo, obscurantism and conspiracy theory. Some of us use logic, empirical research, scientific methodology and spirit boxes. You are now completely isolated in your crazed belief that the group photo was taken in the mid to late 1930s. Your contrarianism has now withered on the vine and your ailing “creative” juices have dried up like a puddle of piss in the Simpson Desert.” (Dec 29)
JS: “Jo…,Your slightly off line flagpole could be a telegraph post or more likely a tall gum tree. What ever it be, if your eyes adjust you’ll see it appears to bisect (an optical illusion) the distant steam train dead centre, just as the white carriage is about to pass by.” (Dec 30)
BN (as B-O-B) “You have finally cottoned on to that white pole weeks after most of us spotted it on the ABC Australian Story Abbott and Coll-stello show. That must have put your nose well out of joint.” (Dec30)
BN 7 JS 0. (All spelling errors are John Sanders’ own)
Steve Hurwood: rest assured that I for one read all your comments, mainly to see where you’ve slipped in some disparaging comment about that mythical Moderator you’re so cross with, I agree that he sounds like a right selfish wanker.
@Lurch – have you tried
https://www.findmyshadow.com/
Steve Driftwood
Nick P. is not the only polm fancier, I too have a little blue 1956 copy of Francis Turner Palgrave’s Golden Treasury of English Verse. Not only that, I also have Ted Leeson’s revised version of 1980 and a volume of sentimental favorites entitled ‘Other Man’s Flowers’ by Lord Archibald Wavell from ’44. I guess some of our CM sheilas and FB bi-guys might not fancy the good Lord’s selection due to omission of polms by Liz Browning or Dot Mackellar but, the ancient Field Marshall musta forgot in the heat of battle.
“Right selfish wanker” – that’s not our mythical moderator! Ours scans the skies for magnificent flying machines and cozies up with mysterious codex. He probably also breathes a sigh of relief that many of his crazed SM commenters are far away in the antipodes and only QANTAS and longhaul aircraft have that distance covered! (The modifier “right” is very British! – Australians usually cut straight to the ubiquitous f-n).
Steve, I also read your comments and others, though I don’t take notes. I believe you when you say that you usually anticipate what the rest of us have to say even before we’ve thought it. Please could you let us know what comes next?
And I’d forgotten all about Sanders’ little white train carriage about to pass by in he distance (just like the beginning of Dr Zhivago)! The man really does have a strong poetic instinct beneath all that swagger!
Sanders – do you have a favourite Lawson poem? I think his mother, Louisa, was a great character – her poems, suffragism, unionism and her magazine the Dawn, beat all that Table Talk twittering imho.
I know there are people who pine for the old spy SM, I think the Webbs, Keanes and Gaveys and their clan have ended up being far more relatable and interesting than a bunch of blokey, probably middle class, intelligence operatives, backstabbing and bumping each other off – plus ca change!
@David it’s going to take a bit of time to play around with that one. But I like it 👍
Jo
Henry Lawson’s ‘The Water Lily’, ‘Sliprails and the Spur’ plus the ‘Drover’s Wife’ would be amongst my favourites but, then I’m just an old softy for motherhood and yearning. I Must admit I’ve always been a big fan of his rousing patrioic stuff too eg., Star of Australasia and England Yet… if you really must know.
@Nick I’m not really cross with anybody, especially folks I have never and will never meet (unless I bump into you in Mayfair or Belgravia).
@Jo Slapped wrist for not taking notes on my posts. You must sit on your own in a room and copy out Emile Coue ‘s mantra “Every day, in every way, I’m getting better and better” one hundred times.
Glad you have noticed my pre-cog abilities. Think Minority Report (the novel, I don ‘t know the film). My prediction is that more people will in the near future start to concentrate on paterfamilias Richard Webb’s period in gaol.
To remind fellow punters:
“ST. ARNAUD. Friday. At the adjourned sittings of the General Sessions to-day, Joseph T, Doran was sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment, with hard labor,
for larceny of wheat from Donald grain shed. Richard Webb was given a similar sentence for breaking into and entering the shop of Geo. Sawyer, St. Arnaud, with intent to steal.”
Doubt if that hard labor was much fun. And poor old Eliza.
Angela commented on this on September 2, 2022 (The Somerton Man news cycle seems to have peaked):
“Hi Pat: Regarding Richard Webb’s movements – we can add 12 months in Maryborough Gaol in 1894/95 to the list (another commenter may already have mentioned this). He was caught breaking into a business in St Arnaud. This helps to explain the gap between the births of Russell and Freda, and also the move from St Arnaud to Dandenong. I was hoping to find a photograph attached to his record, but no luck.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/192192732
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/1C9D15A5-F3A9-11E9-AE98-1DAE2E178D55?image=187
Richard’s probate records have been uploaded to FamilySearch (LR91-PLH) if anyone is interested.”
The article I quoted from concerning Richard Webb in my previous post comes from The Age (Melbourne, Vic.) Sat 31 Mar 1894.
Pat’s earlier comment (September 2 2022) about Richard Webb’s peripatetic life that Angela replied to went as follows:
“Hi guys, I have posted a bunch of posts on Abbott’s FB group…basically they’re about Richard August Webb’s whereabouts… I have found references on Trove that he was in (possibly) New Gisborne (1889), Dandenong (1897), Yarraville (1904-1908), Shepparton (1909-1914), Camperdown (1915-1919), Hawthorn/Malvern (1919-1922), Oakleigh (just a reference), Springvale (1928-1939), Moonee Ponds (Gladys and Leslie’s house where he died).”
What sort of Hacienda aficionado hangs in Belgravia or Mayfair. Who are you ?! i was going to guess Stringfellows but he died yonks ago. Next you are going to say you hob nob the the likes of Fat boy slim down in good ole Brighton or Kate Moss in Primrose hill. I still love them very much-Blue Monday never gets old . tell me you used to go to Turnmills cos that guy from talk talk-Mark Holliss stayed on the facebook page long after it shut until his untimely death in 2019. What you didn’t know is Mark had a long battle with heroine and the music industry. Kicked the habit, went anonymous, changed his identity and moved to Cardiff and then became a chef , only to succumb recently to a heroine relapse when he lost his dad. Spirit was about addiction. https://www.facebook.com/marky.c.quinn RIP
Well anyways back to the SM man
That’s interesting Steve Hurwood, I found a strange one from 1936, someone broke into R Webbs home, stole clothes, keys and cash but returned clothes and keys a few days later, strange robbery, I was thinking more a warning, ” we can get in
your home whenever we like” type of message, only other thing I could think of was a family member with mental health issues or money problems but again to return the clothes and keys is taking a huge risk if it’s just a random robber, be better to just dump what you’ve stolen in you can’t use it.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/xS6DE0F2mYo3
Steve Deadwood,
Dick presented a glowing Police record when applying for his Citizenship in August 1914 which was granted despite war having just brokrn out. I’m thinking he and the St. Arnaud break & enter man were not the same person in spite of they having similar names and and I seem to recall something simiar in another case involving underweight bread up Seymore way in 1912. For all that the 1894 newspaper item did not mention the offenders middle name, age nor his abode which a bit odd, so afraid I’ll not permit Richard August Webb’s name to be besmerched without any better evidence…You’ll need to find out when he became Richard Webb, bearing in mind his migration to the Colonies in 1888, so maybe he was still known as Weber in 1894…ps: everytime you and your FB pals use the word ‘punters’ I put a tick on the board alongside me name.
@lurch
the findmyshadow lets you upload an image. I suppose it would be best to start with a ‘known known’ – find/create an image you know to be a location at a time with its shadows. Before tackling the Webb photo.
Just a small thought. It has been speculated that the sign on the post contains the word sheds. Could it be changing sheds? For the use of the term see for example:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4610757?searchTerm=%22changing%20sheds%22
Could the group be enjoying a day in Willie, as I did on my trip to Melbourne in 1985? The Botanical Gardens? Someone previously commented that the foliage looked a bit exotic and hypothesized about Botanical Gardens. There’s a cricket club nearby. Plenty of boat sheds in Willie too.
The other place I was thinking about was Queens Park, Moonee Ponds, just round the corner from the Martin residence.
https://www.mooneepondshistory.com/history
Also nearby, the Moonee Valley Racecourse is just at the end of Coats Street where the Martins lived when Richard A Webb died.
Changing sheds were situated in parks and other public spaces as well as beach areas. For an amusing article with a mention of changing sheds (from Punch) see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175610102?searchTerm=%22changing%20sheds%22
“Mixed bathing is a good term. There is no
better way of mixing people, and it is well for
the individuals of a community to mix and
come into touch with one another, to learn to
like each other better, and’ discover how much
of the mean, narrow, contemptible differences
between them are due to the meretricious
superiorities of clothes. What have councillors
and others to urge against all this but some
rather dull prejudices, a belief -that it is not
proper for men and women to go into the water
together, a few old-fashioned terrors that extremely
proper young persons may be shocked,
and an idea that the bay shark would reap a
large harvest? Not one of these is a reasonable
objection, since every unpleasant possibility
enumerated can easily be guarded against. It
is not difficult to insist upon a bathing garment
for both sexes that will satisfy any reasonably
fastidious onlooker. It is a simple
matter to erect changing sheds for men and
women, and the construction of shark-proof
fences is within their capacity of a very moderate
engineering talent.”
Im a bit of a poet myself. Just wrote this one,
The Transcontinental chugged and steamed through the night
Carl Webb in the bar car looking out to the bite.
Its a long way from Springvale and the memory of Doff
When a rambling old Colonel staggers in and goes off “there’s no such a thing as the Transcontinental ” “never was still isn’t”
@Steve H – I am certainly under the impression that depending on whatever was used to enhance the image of the sign, the two clearest enhancements looked like HAMPTON DEV in one instance, and ‘something not legible’ SHEDS in the other instance. Hampton definitely had dressing sheds/shelters.
What does me is the specific mounting for the street sign (the part attaching it it to the post) and the street lamp and mountings were widely used in Hampton. Even in 1960 they still had the same mountings but with the lamp replaced with fluoros. I have found exhibits of the mounting being sold on eBay, shipping from Hampton. The only other place I have found this lamps and mountings in Oakleigh so far, but not the street sign mounts. This is the compelling reason I’m angling toward Hampton.
The other reason is the vegetation. There was an early 1900s booklet I read on Sandringham’s unique vegetation (I might have posted the link somewhere). I found many species of plant from the photo in the booklet, and to look at the seascape now in Hampton, it really doesn’t look too different considering that every piece of coastline in Australia, they’re trying to protect the indigenous vegetation. So hardly surprising there.
The only thing I haven’t done is emailed the Sandringham & District Historical Society for comment on street lights, street signs and whether they could pinpoint the location. If we have a definitive location, then we might be able to narrow down on the occasion and the date.
I’m more than open to anyone finding the true location supported by evidence from the day, but I must say I’ve forgotten why we need to know the date, because that guy circled as Charlie is an absolute dead ringer for that dead guy everyone’s been talking about…IMO 😆
Correction in my recent post. ‘Twas the Scotts, not the Martins who lived in Moonee Ponds.
@Em
Nah, don’t hang around Nick’s part of London very much, but you never know where fate might lead you. Don’t hob nob with any stars these days either, but as I stated before, Bernard Sumner of New Order did serve me a couple of drinks in the old Hac. I even sat in front of Vini Reilly* on the bus once, and The Fall’s Mark E Smith gave me a death stare outside the University of Bristol Students’ Union building cos I smiled at his then wife Brix (the band were excellent that night).
I do like a bit of Talk Talk esp Eden and Laughing Stock (no jokes please). Poor Marks – both Hollis and Smith now deceased. All those guys are dropping dead. Another Mark – Stewart – of Bristol’s top post punk band The Pop Group snuffed it a few weeks back. I saw Stewart at Manchester Poly with the Sugarhill musicians who played on Grandmaster Flash records etc, performing as The Maffia. Great!
Never went to Turnmills as I’ve never lived in London town. Moving to Cardiff does seem a bit drastic. Think old Green from Scritti did something like that after a breakdown but he was Welsh! Other now dead singers/performers I’ve seen live include Ian Curtis (Joy Division), Billy Mackenzie (Associates), David McComb (Triffids), Rowland S Howard (Birthday Party), Nico (Velvet Underground), Lux Interior (Cramps), Grant Hart (Husker Du), Adam Yauch (Beastie Boys). All were of a similar age to me except Lux and Nico. Don’t kill yourself, drink too much or do drugs! Not judging anyone okay!
* Tune of the day with Vini and Martin Hannett:
https://youtu.be/Kc7Hny8uLr0
@John Sanders
Not much doubt about Richard August Webb as a jailbird- see Angela’s link to the prison record. Look closely. Born 1866. Place Germany. Occupation Baker and Cook. Middle initial A. Pretty big coincidence if not him eh Colonel? We’ve known about it for ages – well, those of us who’ve been paying attention – but it hardly ever gets mentioned so I thought I’d remind everybody that there was a crim right at the heart of the Webb family. Not judging anyone okay!
thedud
Show me where I said the words “never was still isn’t” again to jog my memory, no need for capitals to emphasise the claim this time. The Transcontinental Railway, as everyone with half a brain can attest to, connects California on the Pacific coast and the eastern states of the USA on the Atlantic shore ie., TRANSCONTINENTAL and was built between 1863 and 1869. Ain’t no doubt about it whatsoever dud, even a dip shit should know darn well. It’s all getting to be oh so booring dud.
Thanks Steve for putting up the Prov Vic record from Angela, I’d totally missed that. Fabulous document to see. Ah, so Mr Webb was 5ft-8 (whoops, another thing I’d missed) Roy was 5ft-8 too and he looks taller than him by a couple of inches in the photo, so that’s interesting.
Has anyone been able to find a shirt like the one Carl’s wearing, it’s driving me nuts that I can’t find one, it’s very unusual with the big bat wing sleeves and unusual seam placement, would love to see a picture.
One factor Dr Palmer Benbow suggested for the Pyjama Girl case was Acromegaly where extremities were overly large – big hands and feet. So it might be worth checking this with Carl Webb.
Features that may result from a high level of GH or expanding tumor include:
– Headaches – often severe and prolonged
– Soft tissue swelling visibly resulting in enlargement of the hands, feet, nose, lips, and ears, and a general thickening of the skin.
Carl’s ears seem to have thickened significantly. His voice would get deeper.
Palmer Benbow was a 1-man CSI – he examined bullets holes for fabric, he overlayed images to show alignment, eye pigments under the microscope, teeth…he went on and on through a catalogue of forensic techniques.
Steve Westwood
Ho..All I could make out from Agella’s PROVE prison record initially, was detail concerning a (Mr.) Hong Nah a decrepit Chinaman, imprisoned for vagrancy in Ballarat in 1894. That jogged memories of having noted Dick’s full particulars so claimed, in her original post for which I carelessly overlooked and and am so dreadfully sorry for any resultant inconvenience to unforgiving FB followers.
“Never was still isn’t ” were your exact words Colonel f…..n Sanders and what’s more you know it !! Its “boring to you because its re living old pain but Ill make a deal with you , lets throw it out to the listeners.. Folks by show of hands do I ,
Option 1 ease up on the Colonel and let him go about his business
Option 2 Continue to keep the b… honest and call him to account when he stuffs up (much like he loves to do each time any innocent punter makes even the most innocuous of errors)
Let the people decide.
@Lurch
You rang? Give my regards to Cousin Itt. It’s been a long time.
You have obviously considered the post from a more scientific angle than I have, and your eyesight is definitely better. I just see a bog standard post with a sign attached. I can’t see anything special about the mounting, but like I say I’m not an expert. As I commented previously Derek Abbott is your go to man on street furniture as he made a study of London lampposts and letter boxes when he was a mere adolescent.
See: https://story.californiasunday.com/somerton-man/
There’s a fellow over on Facebook who you may or may not know – and I don’t want to get on the wrong side of him cos in his profile pic he looks ready to give any challengers a knuckle sandwich – who provided a picture of a specific, rather ornate bracket. I can’t see that bracket anywhere on the post in the group photo, try as I might.
Following Sharon’s Aspendale suggestion I put forward the idea that it could have been somewhere near the old racecourse. They held loads of picnics there and had “shelter sheds”.
For example a piece on the District Schools picnic from the Healesville and Yarra Glen Guardian (Sat 11 Feb 1922):
“… it was decided to hold a picnic on Wednesday, March 8, at Aspendale
Park racecourse, which has been kindly placed at the disposal of the committee free of charge…The park is an ideal place for a picnic, being within 100 yards or so of the beach, and has splendid shelter sheds with every convenience.”
Our old mate John Sanders once told me it was most likely a gum tree, not a post or pole at all. I think we all know who is really up a gum tree on this one!
….can’t hardly blame Poor Richard for turning to dishonesty as an alternative to hunger and destitution due to onset of Melbourne’s worst economic depression ever. One that affected it’s poor unemployed and inner suburban denizens more than most. Dick’s young wife Eliza as a consequence of his gaoling likely went back to her family in Werribee with newborn Russell for the year of imprisonment, who as result of an inadequate diet whilst an infant made him into a runt in adulthood. Nah let’s not be too hard on Dick, he committed the crime, did the time paying his debt to society and succeeded what’s more. Who amongst yous wouldn’t stoop to crime in order to keep the family fed in similar curcumstances. PS The depression of the 1890’s was the worst in history, including one that we recall from the ’30’s, especially when accompanied by a long drought and extreme summer heat spells which killed off a good percentage of infants and the elderly. Good on yer Richard.
On his application for the Certificate of Naturalization in 1914 Richard August Webb lists Richmond, Gipsland (sic), Camperdown, Seymour, Dandenong, Yarraville and Shepparton as the places he has resided in since arriving on the Nurnberg in 1888. His current address was Brunswick.
No mention of St Arnaud where son Russell was born and where he dipped his fingers in George Sawyer’s till.
@Poppins
Perhaps Richard shrank or maybe Roy was 5′ 11″ after all! That would put Cramer’s and Bowes’ noses out of joint. Charlie is clearly a few inches taller than “Grandpa”.
I note that he was also described as having a “sallow complexion”. That explains it then! He received a month’s extension to his sentence for “Attempting to hold communication with female prisoner by writing” and was released 25 Feb 1895 (convicted 22 March 1894).
Wonder who the “other woman” was? Maybe someone could look up Webb’s probate records on FamilySearch (LR91-PLH).
@ Dude – the bastard needs to be kept as honest as possible in the circumstances. Don’t let go of that cheek halter strap so easily! The next thing we know he’ll be telling Pelling that he followed the non existent Transcontinental train line in his little flying machine, across the Nullarbor Desert, with old PB beside him, working the Ballina bellows, keeping the thing filled with hot air and afloat, up in the southern sky.
Steve Plywood
I guess you’re referring to a past comment on this thread, when responding to a comment of sweet Jo, that I thought her suggested “Flagpole” might be a either a power pole/telegraph post, or more likely a tall gum tree. You were quite right technically speaking, but for making no mention of said flagpole or the utilities post which is a little unfair. PS: If as you say, Richard got a month tacked on to his sentence of a year from 22 March ’94 but was released after only 11 months on 25 February then something is awray with your calculations I fear.
100 percent of responses vote for keeping the Colonel honest !!
Zero percent in favour of easing up on the Colonel.
Sorry Colonel the I’s have it.
All I ask of you dud booooring is, that you and your 100 percenters promise not to let up on the good natured terms of endearment directed my way and never give an inch. I’m just luv’n all the attentio, just like my First Nation brother in balms and proud Walbanga man Stan Grant.
John Sanders
My most humble, abject and profuse apologies! It was indeed Jo that you directed your gum tree gaffe to and not me.
My mathematical skills are not at issue here. I’m simply reading off the prison entry page. On 25 February 1895 Webb was grated his freedom “by permission” as “extra remission was granted by Inspector [illegible]”. He had been received at Maryborough Gaol on 31 March 1894. The other prisoner mentioned in the article I quoted from, Joseph T Doran (or Thomas J Doran as listed on his prison record), who was convicted the same day for larceny of wheat, and given the same sentence, was released on 4 February so Webb did do a few weeks extra.
I agree with you that one shouldn’t rush to judgment about Richard. “Breaking rocks in the hot sun” certainly ain’t no picnic either. Just surprised that the incident hasn’t been mentioned very often.
As Poppins pointed out Richard was 5′ 8″ tall. Charlie was obviously taller than that as can be seen in the group of four photo. Roy is probably standing on his tippy toes as he is leaning in towards the other three and may have wanted to make a better impression. Us six footers don’t need to do that sort of thing.
I don’t understand why people assume the people at the back are standing. everyone else is seated. Assuming the seated ones are all 5 feet tall then the standing ones would be about just over 3 feet tall – assuming the seated ones are about 2′ 6″ from their waist to their head. Roy is only head height about the big guy seated so Roy is just over 3 feet tall. To my mind, they are all crouching or kneeling at the back which would explain his 3+ feet height.
LDV said people are 3/4 of their height when kneeling – so that would make Roy 3/4 of 5 ‘8 ” which is 4’ 3″ when kneeling. Which may be too tall for the guy at the back. Crouching height is shorter, so they are likely crouching at the back.
Russell’s hand looks like it is resting on the arm of a chair which he is crouching behind.
NONE OF THEM ARE STANDING. Please use your eyes.
Based on the fact that Daniel Martin looks like he has some sort of chair (Rattan/plastic?) it might suggest he took one from his home. That makes it more likely the photo is very near the home of the Martins.
David Martin
Can’t make any suggestions as to identity of your Daniel Martin but, my alternative Dan at the far end, does not appair to be on a chair certainly not plastic, unless the pic be a modern fake.
David Morgan
Can’t make any suggestions as to identity of your Daniel Martin but, my alternative Dan at the far end, does not appair to be on a chair certainly not plastic, unless the pic be a modern fake.
It’s a bit interesting, hey, that Hickey Taylor’s brother Ernest William Taylor was living at 93 Willis Street, Hampton in 1962! Can anyone find where he was living back in to the day when the family pic was taken?
David Morgan, to me it looks like Eliza, Hickey, Leslie, Leo and Freda are the only ones that aren’t on seats/chairs. Maybe the back row are on a bench seat? Do we know the exact address of the Martins in Geelong? I haven’t become accomplished at using Sands and McDougall yet, it’s tricky.
@JS,
To sing from the same song sheet assume ‘labelled as X’ on the family photograph. It makes it easier for everyone else if we aren’t comparing apples with oranges.
@Poppin,
I think it is some grassy knoll, as I would assume bench seats/park bench would continue at the ends. Also if you look as Russells hand it looks like it is resting on an arm of a chair with the dog in front of Mr Martin (sorry the man labeled as Daniel Martin for JS). It could also be the top of an inverted tennis racket I suppose.
David Morgan: you’re right on the money with the seats/park benches etc. I forgot to mention in past posts that Carl Webb’s mum Eliza’s family had a general store at 97 Watton St. Werribee just 50 yards from the River trail and about 50 more to to Wyndam park foot bridge. On today’s map there be mention of river seating and from there I can well imagine one might have a panoramic view to Melbourne 25 miles to the east north east. I’ll leave the punters to fight over petty details of the Grace family of which I have no interest in, though I’m eagerly anticipating all the usual good hearted accompanying vindictiveness nonetheless, so be my guests and don’t hold back.
@Poppins
1925 -1930 the Martins were living at 12 Toolangi Road, Alphington.
1925: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2167278?searchTerm=%22toolangi%20road%22%20martin
1930: https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE14133704&file=FL20136477&mode=browse
In 1930 there were two Ernest W Taylors and several plain Ernests:
https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE14133704&file=FL20136956&mode=browse
David Morgan: there is no dog in front of Daniel Martin, only two fine ladies in the form of his good wife Doris and mum-in-law Mrs. Webb. I’m thinking, though by no means insisting, that the cove with the tennis raquet and the older bloke alongside him, may possibly be Eliza’s brother and her nephew ie., Robert Henry 1874-1943 and Robert William Grace 1905-1970 (from memory), the store keepers of Watton St.Werribee (formerly of St. Arnauds).
Steve Haywood
I can’t fault you on the Martin’s new Alphington address (post ’23) which of course was known to us from Danny boy’s service record but thanks anyhow. As for your being able to come up with only two Ernest W. (William) Taylors, from a quick trap search (for curiousity), I snagged several more all with William included and in the right general age grouping ie.,1880s to 1910.
This is an interesting happenstance link – contains a sound recording of/by Leo Keane Memories of WW2 for the Keane family.
One track sounds interesting of the Pyjama [Girl?] Murders song by Leo Keane.
https://find.slv.vic.gov.au/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9912564563607636&context=L&vid=61SLV_INST:SLV&lang=en&search_scope=slv_local&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=searchProfile&query=any,contains,gerald%20keane&offset=0
It suggests Leo Keane sat at the front was interested in the Pyjama Girl mystery.
The audio recording also includes a Red Cross message from Canada by John Keane. Since it was put together by Leo it would likely be his brother.
One example:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248137974?searchTerm=%22%20Who%27ll%20put%20the%20%22I%22%20in%20the%20AIF%22
David – this is a great find & yes, no doubt John Keane! I wonder whether Poppins or I could access and record it?
Perhaps Leo’s song was referring to the film “The spider woman” about a person faking their own death for insurance fraud and not the Pyjama Girl mystery.
We might get lucky and find the code and Leo’s/?Carl’s song lyrics match.
https://www.filmaffinity.com/en/film777898.html
We know that Russell Webb was a fair bit shorter than his brothers, perhaps because, as J Edweird Sanders suggests, of “an inadequate diet whilst an infant” after his father went to gaol.
From ‘The Somerton Man News Cycle Seems To Have Peaked’ thread:
“misca
on September 4, 2022 at 6:02 pm said:
Also –
There is a Victoria Police Gazette listing dated August. 17, 1911. It is under the heading “Deserters of Wives and Children” and it reads:
“RUSSELL WEBB is charged, on warrant, with deserting his illegitimate child at Shepparton, on the 8th inst. Description: – Baker’s driver, about 18 years of age, 5 feet 3 or 4 inches high, medium build, medium complexion, brown hair, round features, inclined to be small, no hair on face; wore a dark striped suit, light coloured soft-felt hat, and tan boots.””
misca also commented that “Russell’s children did an odd thing when he died in July 1949. Each of his children posted separate notices with references to their own families and none of them mentioned Josephine [his second wife].”
But the oddest thing is that none of his three sisters seem to have placed a notice on his death!
Notices from his children:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189466100?searchTerm=%22russell%20webb%22%20st%20arnaud
From his second wife
“WEBB.— On July 8. at 25 Westgarth-
street, East Malvern, Russell
Richard Webb, beloved husband of
Josephine. Late of Eltham and Warran-
dyte. Requiescat in pace.”
Also I’m still surprised that nobody really followed up the info on Papa Webb’s prison sentence. It was picked up as early as last July:
“Pernille Clarke
on July 28, 2022 at 10:22 am said:
His dad Richard August Webb was not exactly clean. If this is him (Baker, Germany) he was busted for break and entering 22 Mar 1894.” (a link was provided to Ancestry which I can’t access)
As with Angela’s later comment NOBODY picked up on it. A conspiracy of silence?
Sometimes I feel as though I’d be better off in the painful bardo of dying!
“Now when the bardo of dying dawns upon me,
I will abandon all grasping, yearning, and attachment,
Enter undistracted into clear awareness of the teaching,
And eject my consciousness into the space of unborn rigpa*;
As I leave this compound body of flesh and blood
I will know it to be a transitory illusion.” [Padmasambhava]
* knowledge
On a new thread there is mention of the decoding of some arcane cipher to come up with a section of A. E. Housman’s “Terence, This is Stupid Stuff”.
There is a connection between Housman and the Australian outback. Many will remember the end of the film ‘Walkabout’ when the following lines from Housman’s ‘A Shropshire Lad’ were read out…
“Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.”
..as Jenny Agutter stands there in the kitchen of her swish Sydney apartment looking back wistfully at her time frolicking naked with David Gulpilil and a young Luc Roeg round the waterhole. And John Barry’s excellent theme puts a tear in every eye.
Irrelevant but true!
Thanks Steve, ah, Alphington, that’s a bit interesting …. not far from Fairfield. We know the JC Williamson Theatrical Employees picnic was held at Fairfield in 1927 – I haven’t seen mention of where the next few years ones were but there seems to be a trend of returning to same place.
Sanders, you remind me of a squirrel hiding its nuts …. so that’s where your Werribee picnic theme came from, Eliza’s family shop at 97 Watton St. Werribee. Interesting.
David Morgan and Jo, that CD would be good to listen to. I don’t think I can get out to Caulfield though, can do Prov Vic and State Library easily though.
Poppins: nah, truth be known mate I’m more your wary old duffer scratching his brow and keeping his own counsel for fear of being disbelieved or discredited by those after his nuts.
@Poppins,
I was researching the Pyjama Girl mystery and by some happenstance, I came across Leo Keane’s WW2 family collection included the Pajama Murders song…like every family has one of those songs. I’m hoping it has a more humorous theme about the unsuitability of Pajamas, perhaps a children’s song he had made up.
I don’t think murder confessions come in songs. Though in one Norwegian case they asked a guy to create a film script. they suggested ideas – like a killer with a rock etc. When he had written his film script they used it as a confession.
Steve, here’s the link to Richards prison record, it names the ship he came to Australia on which matches with the information on his citizenship paperwork.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/1C9D15A5-F3A9-11E9-AE98-1DAE2E178D55?image=187
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/myV4leU282OT
I think Russell is the dark haired fella sitting in the second row to the left of circled Charlie as you look at the photo. Stuart says it’s Daniel Martin but using the photos from the Cass album the fella being tapped on the head is a better fit for Daniel. Stuart says Russell is the guy next to circled Charlie but he doesn’t match with his police report? Russell’s second wife had two children to her first husband, Thomas and Margret , they didn’t place death notices to their stepfather from what I can see? Did you see my other post too, looks like Charlie may have been born 6 months before Russell married Amy? His war enlistment paperwork has his birthdates plus it’s strange that Amy and Russell got married on a Wednesday with a very small wedding, grey dress, given away by her brother Fred. If Charlie’s war record birthdate is correct in WW2 he would have to produce either a birth certificate or statuary declaration so I’m thinking it is and being Russell’s second time of getting a girl pregnant he did the right thing and got married?
Another street light mount. This time Pt Ormond c.1915
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/603efb1a092fbbe37f3e96de
@ Poppins- the CD is at the State Library. I messaged Stuart Webb who has put a hold request in for a listen. It was produced in 2004, it would be interesting to know who produced it, how and why. The original recording is probably from Leo’s days as a WWII band master. The Nazi swing orchestra is an interesting inclusion – there was a lot of contemporaneous interest in them – including monitoring by the BBC. David Morgan knows more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Schwedler. The inclusion of a message from Jack Keane from Canada is also really interesting! Good find David!
@ Steve – I was one who didn’t comment on Richard Webb’s prison sentence. I think the Betoota Advocate puts it better than I could:
https://www.betootaadvocate.com/humans-of-betoota/bloke-at-self-checkout-committing-type-of-crime-that-got-ancestors-sent-to-australia/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ
Australia was in the midst of a biting recession (noted by JES) and the man wasn’t actually caught stealing anything- he was imprisoned on intent. Desperate actions in desperate times? There doesn’t seem to be any evidence of a life of hardened crime, he seems to have been a hard working baker. My kids witness far more theft working at Woolies on an average weekend – you’d be surprised how many people hide meat and even prawns deep in their bags of green beans and spinach… and never trust anyone buying Brussel sprouts!
Sharon Cockrane
Coupla months back I searched SS Nurnberg along with Richard’s stated arrival date in Melbourne. There was no record of Nurnberg having been in ‘Australian’
waters at the time; on the date in question Melbourne Port had only a single passenger vessel arrive from Newcastle NSW and y’man wasn’t included in the manifest. Don’t mind my saying so but, to date all ID’s are in dispute apart from Roy, Eliza and Richard, all the rest being up for grabs. So my advice is don’t just simply go with the self appointed ID experts ; they’re all over the shop including poor Stuart Webb (trapped) and it is unlikely to be resolved by guessing truth be known.
Lurch
….and two more of the buggers, one in the middle of Watton St. Werribee not far from Bob Grace’s fruit & vegi business and t’other over the way in Station Street, both being of a similar shaded single globe of a UFO flying saucer design. Power poles evenly spaced along main street frontage with motor vehicles suggest circa. twenties, so all you 25ers hop onto old Werribee Pictorials and get a big surprise. Oh, by the way if you punch in Barry Plant, realtor of 12 Watton St. Werribee you get the same street aspect but nowish, in full colour with Melbourne skyline quite clearly defined off to the ENE. what did I tell you sport.
@Jo,
To be fair it does say ‘breaking and entering with intent’. He may have forced open a window. Though I can remember walking home from a disco as a teenager it was 12 miles from my home and it was snowing hard. At the point of exhaustion, I sat in a pub doorway thinking this is where I will be found in the morning. As I sat back the door burst open and in the pitch black was a white rectangle. For some reason, I opened the white rectangle (chest freezer) and found a packet of Tuc biscuits which I ate in seconds and walked home. I could never understand why a chest freezer was immediately inside a pub doorway and was full up with Tuc biscuits. Perhaps it was all part of hypothermia and I imagined it. I don’t think I had Tuc biscuits after that.
So perhaps Richard found the window open and went in looking for iced Tuc biscuits in a state of hyperthermia not hypothermia.
More thoughts on the parallel universe of the Somerton Man and the Pyjama Girl
Pyjama Girl:
“and her hands were large for a woman of her stature.”
“The body had ears which were described as malformed: specifically they were
flattened at the top, at the part which is called the helix, and they had little or no lobe”.
Notice the giant hand of Carl.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qo81oEZ6OuMcSHFYlsQsRvHZSP2jFxl3/view?usp=sharing
Dr Benbow believed it was a pituitary gland issue in the PG and that it led to bones that were used to measure to age people were longer than usual.
…Sorry Barry, of course you’re up-town further at 126 Watton St. almost opposite where R. H. Grace greengrocers had been and near to the foot bridge to Wyndam Park where the Werribee River redirects west away from the town centre.
If you need a volunteer to listen to CD and report back, can do, on the weekend sometime though. I shall await further instructions. Over.
The amount of energy discussing the stripe direction of the Somerton Man tie and in 1929? Richard August was wearing US direction stripes. Had he, or Carl or Gerald Keane been to America before 1929?
David Morgan
Forget that ‘heart to sword’ (GB) and ‘ass about face’ (US) tie stripe nonsense, we covered if in depth years ago and turns out there is no strict ruling depending on one’s origins, only preference, eg., the aaf tie that SM was wearing was one having come from Tootal tie & scarf factory in Victoria….I have something better in mind concerning Roy Webb’s enormous watch worn at Richard’s 70th birthday picnic gathering. OK got it yet?, it’s on his right wrist as the hand crosses behind the top of dad’s high back chair. So now take a gander at the one he’s sporting in Sharon’s
Changi shot of him in late 1941. No doubt about it being the same ruddy monster
timepiece he was sporting five years earlier, not likely to have been with him way back in 1925, eh mate?
DM: you’ll have smartly noted by now that in the Changi pic, Roy is wearing his watch on the left wrist and not his right as depicted in the earlier 1936 civy shot. Reason being that Army RO’s stipulated that watches were to be worn on the left hand for a sound reasons, that being to do with all rifle drills being right handed irrespective of whether the soldier be cacky handed or not. Get the picture?
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/6cv3Rq58kcuJ
John, I found the Nurnberg in Australia in 1888.
Sharon: right you are, but for Richard’s stated date of arrival in Australia 18th Oct. 1888 on his citizenship application, as against SS Nurnberg’s first port of call 23rd Oct. for Adelaide then 26th inst. docking at Melbourne port; this according to your reliable shipping news records. Thanks for the update, my bad.
@JS,
I see no chunky watch I see a chair. It may even be some sort of wheelchair as little arms may be jutting out at the back.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TOds9UksU_OD1_39LjFH0_SxtRpWiFHq/view?usp=sharing
I think the photo idea was Richard and Eliza would be on chair thrones but Eliza wanted to join the gang on the left for their social inclusion. She may have known two were dying.
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/mdQt74NXPt0t
All good John, two heads are better than one 🙂
I’ve got him arriving 18th January 1888 on his application for citizenship, maybe he muddled dates?
David Morgan: where your red pointer terminates is Roy’s wrist and the dark smudge be his watch. Image is clear enough without over magnification and it should compare quite favourably with that being worn in the Changi picture courtesy of Sharon…while on comparisons you might care to re evaluate Leo’s presence in family pic with Norm Webb’s RAAF inlistment photo from 1943. No doubting it’s Norm and not Leo lolling on the grassy sans knoll as Stuart would have his FB colleagues believe.
Sharon: pity we haven’t got the Nurnberg passenger list. I’m thinking Richard Weber may have jumped ship as a 22 year old man apparently unaccompanied. In re his grandson Norman’s presence or nay in the family gathering pic, if you go to page 62 of his RAAF service record, there appears to be no doubt if you compare his inlistment photo with the lad in shorts. I mentioned it way back but the FB mob remain convinced about Leo Keane which stands to reason…PS: Norm’s second wife Lois nee Langley was in the RAAF but her file remains unopened. Cheers js
@JS,
The problem with the Norm Webb loller theory is seeing dead people in the picture. So then you have to reinvent all the other people. As it is Stuart’s family he has first ‘dibbs’ on the truth of the picture. He can turn it over and see names. His map of names makes more sense as the names were probably written down by his mother or aunt. For example, there is no way he would have written down Hickey Taylor. His problem was like the original football picture with Carl Webb – which was Carl.
John Sanders, I really can’t see any watch on Roy’s gloved hand, let alone a chunky one that you say matches the one in the photo years later ….. and believe me I’ve looked. On this occasion I do beg to differ.
PS: How’s the flag looking on the moon today, is it showing any signs of wear and tear? Just curious. Good on ya.
David Morgan: Sorry I can’t agree with many of your Stuart Webb inspired IDs of many of those present on the Webb family photo of 1925; or for that matter your non acceptance of allowing for possible errors which Stuart himself admits to.
The CD at the State Library of Victoria (from a listing serendipitously found by David Morgan) features two WWII recordings from the Keane family, plus a number of WWII era songs. It was put together by a friend of Leo Keane’s son in 2005. Stuart Webb went to have a listen and messaged me with copies of the sleeve notes – which he comments are in many ways more interesting than the songs. The two Keane recordings are an original song “The Pajama Murders song” by Leo Keane – recorded on a Kenatone record at Luna Park amusement fair (Kenatone was a popular diy/novelty recording service) and a Red Cross message from Jack Keane, from 1943, when he was training in Canada. Leo apparently composed lots of songs and parodies, especially when he served with the AIF entertainment unit during the war. The sleeve includes an image of Leo on his wedding day in 1942, with Jack Keane standing behind him and Gerald Keane in the background. IMO it clearly establishes Leo as the young boy in the foreground of the family photo. There is also a facsimile of the cover of the Red Cross message recording from John Keane.
How so Jo, based on what?. If your pre ’29 dating due to Stuart’s contentious Amy Webb’s attendance, be all you have to go on for identification, than you’d be wise to think again. If the year of the pic is mid thirties then Norman Webb not Leo Kean is the youth at centre stage…Don’t believe me then ask Sharon; she’s on the ball and what’s more does not play favourites. PS: If you’ve seen Norm’s army ID photo on page 62 of his file and you don’t see the match then, you my dear should stick to your ribald stage shows, a migrant’s guide to Melbourne inner suburbia and other such tactical diversions that you are renowned for.
Poppins: just to get things off to a better start, you should first check Roy’s leather covered watch in the Changi picture. The covered face makes it look a deal larger, such being not uncommon in the pre shock resistant pre war era. Then go back to the group scene and take another look which hopefully might provide a clearer perspective re the dark object on his wrist. If not than looks like your not up to the task and you’ll forego the ‘well spotted’ badge…Yep the moon’s a balloon today according to my lunar phase time piece and it als tells me I’ll have to cook my own tucker during the three day fasting observance in my village.
Sharon: while we’re all attentive, would it trouble you too much to post your all revealing ‘two Norman’ comparisons for those of us that may not have seen them already. I don’t feel that they’re likely to convince any of our Leo Keane contingent for one second but, if per chance Nick Pelling get’s to see how he missed a perfect
opportunity to name and date the Webb’ family photo’ back in December, he will see how a cock-up might have been avoided..e.g., The date was in fact March 1936, occasion 70th birthdays for Richard Webb and sister in law Lotte Martin, and last the clincher with Norm Webb aged 14/15 lying on the grass at front. Thanks Shaz.
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/lX5wCrYdkDX9
Norman and Norman?
Interesting read on his RAAF files, Russell is a cripple living in a boarding house in St Kilda so son Norman requests to leave to have him move in with him and his first wife.
Before enlisting he worked with Russell driving buses in Eltham, Victoria. Gotta go join John for a cuppa on the moon now 🙂
Well spotted Shabs, looks like we’re making progress at long last though some duffers are not going to be impressed one bit. Did you note the matching ears?.
Join you on the moon in June for tea and iced vovo’s; looks like a mean Mebun mozzarella free pizza from where I am.
@JS,
There is not a lot in it. I agree as a child he looked less like himself as a young adult. But it is very 50:50. The ears and nose look more like Leo. But as an older man he becomes Leo again but his ears are less like young Leo.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tecqRrlNWDRnrPAzyz1oqqoEr92_t7pG/view?usp=sharing
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206215176?searchTerm=%22leo%20keane%22
@Jo,
Mr Swadesir seems to have been very prescient with his auto-pilot for the blind and audio-recordings under the name of Kenatone. Assuming he didn’t copy the name from a US recording device.
But some Kenatone recordings might be useful for research on Melbourne:
e.g.
Russell Street Rag: Melbourne 1925-31
10-20-30-40-50 Years Ago: Melbourne 1925-31
Smileaway (A Nostalgic Excursion: Melbourne 1925-31)
https://www.discogs.com/label/1077928-Kenatone
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22779011?searchTerm=%22kenatone%22
Johnno
The lad is Leo:
https://imgur.com/kBZWGmp
I rest my case
Sharon: there’s one brave soul ready to back up Stuart Webb’s claimed presence of Leo at the family function, along with with two comparison photos marked Leo (including your image of Norm) for support. Note that he has colourised a 1943 NAA inlistment shot of Norman Webb, un marked of course, and being careful not to mention the name in his rejection post. David Morgan is one duffer that will go to any lengths to prop-up his fading 1925 era initiatives; so let’s sit back and see what the rest have to offer in support shall we.
Jo: rest it on what, not on Leo’s protruding lugs that’s for damned sure, no need to mention his or being 25 in 1936, that being yet another nail in Leo Vivian Keane’s coffin figuratively speaking. All according to realistic logic based opinion of one or two intuitive Stuart Webb FB doubters very much still in the game and initiatives intact.
Strange series of events in the Webb family. Coincidence or is there more to the cold war spy theory?
1943 both Roy and John Russell die during the war.
1944 Russell remarries , moves to Eltham and runs a bus company employing his 22 year old son Norman.
1944 Norman enlists in the RAAF becoming personal driver to Sir Frederick Shedden
” at the outbreak of WW2 Shedden was Australia’s most important public servant as the head of the Department of Defence. He was secretary of the War Cabinet and provided assistance to both prime ministers Curtin and Chifley.”
1946 March 5th Norman put in an urgent request to leave stating Russell is a cripple and living in a boarding house in St Kilda.
The same month Carl has a suicide attempt.
Late in the year Dorothy leaves and Eliza dies.
1947 Carl leaves Bromby Street.
1947 October Norman is granted leave.
1948 “Shedden spent time dealing with a leak of documents to the Soviet Union and the consequent reduction in the flow of classified information from the United States of America. ”
1948 Carl is found dead.
1949 Russell dies.
My money was on a horse racing connection but not so sure now.
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/tppSl8Q3SrBq
Norman and Norman or Leo and Leo?
I’m Norman and Norman, Leo’s ears stick out in all 3 photos but not at the picnic, his chin is different and mouth not so wide.
Norman’s mouth is wider, ears are the same as at the picnic and his eyebrow is more hooded.
@Sharon,
Doesn’t spying require you to be there, not going absent all the time? Norman putting in all those requests for leave to look after relatives means it was unlikely he was passing on secrets. It could just be that Carl and Dorothy were filling all the care gaps with Eliza and Russell until they split up and moved away and that left Norman carrying the can.
Carl was by his mother’s side when she was sick. I think he expected Dorothy to look after his mother when she wasn’t working and she didn’t want to do it. He may have been going to bed at 7 so he could get up at 5 to visit his mother before work at Red Point Tools. Dorothy may have missed out a part of the story.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you that the FB cartel including Stuart Webb, who seems a little annoyed by your latest courtious probe comment on faceboof. Of all places to be rude and facetious, one might have expected him to join Jo and David for a full on plugging for ‘big ears’ Leo Keane’s being in the pic. How dare anyone suggest former album owner Norman Webb be the spitting image of the lolling teenager at the gathering. I’m wondering if anyone ever queried the informant’s background regarding his Webb familial credentials and claimed first hand knowledge of the original family. No Jo, I’m not doubting them, just interested in getting some clarity on his grandfathers life and times post his marriage break up with Hilda that’s all.
Sharron: i wonder what prompted Russell and son Norman to convert from protestan to catholosism, apart from the former’s sisters who married papists. There’s another mystery in that Norm enlisted in late 1944 then remained in the RAAF till late ’47 when he had previously earned an exemption from service. With regard to possible horse racing connections to Somerton Man, you’ll find plenty to support such connotations in past CM threads eg., SA champion Royal Gem was sold off to stables in the US by Gleneg connections, accompanied by strapper Jim Kean who had served in WW2 with Dorothy’s dad Jack Robertson on government projects both as civies from ’41 through ’47 (?). Jim was from Melbourne too and from their respective NAA records both were given home leave in early 1943 just weeks apart. Plenty of good honest research to be had in days of yore mate.
@JS
He who owns the original photo gets to control the narrative especially if they can show the provenance. Stuart’s own provenance comes from Prof Abbott linking him via DNA to the Webb family.
IMO, it is likely someone else had the collection and he was chosen to front it for the media.
David I don’t think either were top end spies but I do wonder if in the climate of cold war, reds under the bed a young Norman may have wanted to get out of his job if a few innocent remakes to uncle Carl on where he drove or who his boss met were now part of ” a leak investigation”. I’m curious as to how Russell went from getting remarried in 1944 to living , crippled in a boarding house 18 months later? Norman writes that he has a business in Dromana and the plan being for Russell to live with him and his wife, from other information it seems Norman lived Dromana way where his work was but Russell passes away in East Malvern. Carl im not so sure on, is there some truth to the spy theory or would he be the type of person to talk for a bit of extra cash for the ponies? I personally think the horse ringing/ sp bookmaker/ doping inquiry is the best fit for Carl ending up dead on the beach.
Sharron: also interesting in Normans service record is that he requests discharge from the Airforce in March ’46, claiming that his dad is a cripple, living in a guest house and in needs of care. If this be true it suggests that Russell’s wife since ’44 Josie nee Rigg/McKeown was elswhere and Norm never talks of her; this despite the truism that the couple occupy the same RC plot in Fawkner cemetery. Norm added that dad needed him for a bus operation he wanted to invest his savings into, yet on his induction 29/9/44 Norm says that prior to this he drove dad’s buses for four years, which means from the age 18. Seems to me that ‘the importance of being earnest’ was never of much concern in Norm’s family, eh Stuart & Julie??
Bye! It’s been good & I’ve enjoyed the mystery & many of the (old) commenters but it’s all become a bit pointless, personalised, weird and slanderous. If I manage to get time & access to look through some old show books & anything turns up that maps against the code I’ll email or comment. Au revoir!
Like thoughts eleveh minutes of separation and glad that yours came first Sharron. You’ll have noticed that the worm appears to have turned and certainly looks as if some of our erstwhile FB tutored out of sorts naysayers will be calling it a day.. It’s been said, “winners be grinners and losers can please themselves”. I’m still hoping that their hard headed ‘captain and commander’ might swing by for a parting shot over the bow or, if he be at apologetic for his gaffs, a white flag of surrender.
If it’s 1929 then I wish someone would answer these questions :
Why does Russell not match his police description but it does match another man from the picnic photo?
Why does circled Charlie match nephew Charlie’s war image?
Why does the young lad in front match Norman?
Why does Amy appears younger than 33 years old and in good health yet she dies after being unwell for a long time soon after the photo was taken?
Why does Norma May appears older than 3 and a half, Stuart agreed with this cause when he thought it was Gwen he estimated her age to be 7.
Why does the fella up the back row match the Somerton man’s description from the Adelaide university website that Derek created and the death photo?
Freda and son Leo Keane are in the photo but where are the other kids Gwen and John Russell or husband Gerald?
Where are Russell and Amy’s 4 children?
Why are the style of clothes, dresses, men’s shirts, collars, eye/ sun glasses not consistent with 1929?
Or was a simple error made when finding Charlie written on a photo when searching for a Charlie before knowing that there were two Charlie’s separated by only 12 years in the one family album? Bit like a jigsaw puzzle, one bit may appear to be correct but if the other surrounding pieces don’t fit in easily then the only logical answer is the first piece is wrong.
Sharon
I for one have never completely ruled out the possibility that Charlie was involved in some funny business during WW2 or in the period immediately afterwards.
On 15 August last year (8:37 pm) on the ‘CARL WEBB, “ELECTRICAL FITTER” AND “INSTRUMENT MAKER”…’ thread I posted a comment about Airlie, which I mistakenly called Airedale (I was barking up the wrong tree you might say).
Airlie was the HQ of the ISD (the Inter-Allied Services Department). As I said at the time the ISD was a top secret organisation and its existence was known only to the Prime Minister and the High Command. One Lt. Col. Mott started the ISD on 17 April 1942 in the premises at ‘Airlie’ 260 Domain Road. Stores were also based there.
The point I found interesting was that at the time of their marriage Charlie and Doff were listed as living at 274 Domain Road!
In a post the following day I stated to J Edweird Sanders ” If I was a conspiracy theorist I might speculate that Carl/Charles was picked up for Special Operations work due to his instrument making skills and puzzle solving abilities (I posted a while back that a C Webb of Springvale was a regular entrant and winner in a bridge puzzle solving competition), but then passed some secrets to the Nazis/Japanese/Soviets, and had to lie low after the war…”
But in connection with your ideas about Norman Webb etc perhaps even more interesting is that Russell’s illegitimate son Douglas Russell McCluskey was posted to “Z SPEC” [Z Special Unit] according to his WW2 record at NAA (Service Number – V500465). I can’t get the records up at this moment unfortunately.
In June 1942, an ISD raiding/commando unit was organised—designated Z Special Unit. Its history is somewhat complicated but there is an article on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Special_Unit
Concerning Douglas Russell McCluskey. Angela on Peter Bowes’ site (tbt) commented on 14 August:
“I have located a son of Russell Richard Webb, named Douglas Russell McCluskey, who was born out of wedlock in Fitzroy VIC in 1911 (name at birth: Russell McCluskey). He served in WWII from 1941 to 1943. According to the Department of Veterans’ Affairs Nominal Roll, his posting at discharge was “Z SPEC.” Possibly Z Special Unit?… In 1943 he was working as a munition worker”.
Jo has also commented extensively about military installations and operations in Melbourne during WW2.
I had some idea that the pork pie hat man was Percy Tomkinson. During WW1, he was sent to England from France with shell shock and it seemed like a shell injury. But then in Nottingham he was investigated for Hydatid of Liver. The symptoms seem to be a high temperature, enlarged stomach and flatulence. But the report said he was operated on 13 years previously for it. It is unclear how he had repeat symptoms. He was discharged and assessed as only 1/2 fit to work. But the army seemed unwilling to pay for him to have medical treatment. They didn’t think it was a consequence of the war.
I was hoping to find a picture of pork pie hat man. But for a man who had problems with hydatid of liver he seems to get a contract later to carry out work with sewage or street cleaning – a sanitary contract. The range of social activities he was involved in suggests he was highly popular “Good old Percy” and there was a huge attendance at his funeral from old soldiers and his social circle.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=20570527&T=PDF
Further ‘potential’ evidence that pork pie hat man is Percy Tomkinson.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kZ39GU31f3nRxfi4ebvObf3u1swPcebk/view?usp=sharing
Facial ID (Betaface) gives these two men a very strong likeness score – like you get when it is the same person. The one on the left is at rifle training in Liverpool, Sydney in 1915. But Mxface facial ID is not able to confirm they are the same person.
Could be David, Percy was born 1879 so 56 if the photo was taken in 1935, I read the newspaper clipping containing the letter he wrote home to his parents and I think from memory he said he was buried from a shell going off which I guess could explain his face looking like really bad acne scars?
Byron Deveson
Recall your shortish post re Stuart Webb Capt. RAN of which, following my calling that into question you made a very abrupt retraction on Tbt though without any explanation. So now I’ve come up with anothery, one buried within the bowels of your informative DNA tracing post, in which you seem to have misidentified Leo Keane’s only known son as Gerald Thomas. Question now is, was that an honest mistake ie., Gerald Thomas being of course Leo’s dad?. If not you might then consider re evaluating your original source and to supply any details you may have on Leo and Hilda Keane’s only son John Robert Keane. Thanks js
@ Sharon – I did wonder about signals intelligence as there were at least fourteen signals intelligence locations near where Charlie lived. I marked these on a map and sent it to Nick last year. I thought maybe Charlie was involved in modifying or maintaining equipment. He still may have been. Will Sher of the Redpoint Tool Company was a good friend of my husband’s stepfather’s father who served in WWI with the First Australian Wireless Signal Squadron and afterwards with the British Indian Army in Basra and Kandahar (early signals intelligence). He was an electrical engineer. He didn’t serve in WWII but his wife was the secretary to an American colonel, she was posted to Townsville. After the war my in law’s father’s office was very close to the first ASIO office. We have no evidence but wonder if he provided technical advice.
Re Sher – also an electrical engineer, however being Austrian may have precluded involvement with signals equipment and work. Redpoint was, however, very close to signals intelligence locations (it was essentially behind a fruit shop on Chapel Street in Prahran – now Grill’d burgers). Most of Redpoint’s employment notices are from the post war period.
An interesting aside, one of Australia’s top cryptanalysts was Japanese speaking Norman Frederick Webb. He and his wife, née Linda Patton, worked for Central Bureau, on Domain Road, South Yarra. Webb, who was British, had worked for ICI in Japan before the war. He met Linda, an Australian, at Central Bureau. Some 1990s correspondence between their daughter and the Department of Defence, re medals, ended up on Norman Frederick Webb of Dromana’s file. Imagine if Norman & Val had ended up with Norman and Linda’s Bletchley Park medals!!
The ABC are screening something on signals intelligence work tonight https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102411022.
Many of the workers were women. There was a large signals training camp, 33 AWAS, on Fawkner Park, near where Charlie & Doff lived on Bromby Street.
Although this was my starting point for interest in this case, I don’t believe that signals or intelligence work had anything to do with Charlie’s death.
@ David – I think you’re right! Well spotted! There is lots on Trove re Amy’s older brother, Percy Tomkinson. The sanitary contract, however, is for someone with the same name in Perth. Percy lived at Stoneyford, which is between Camperdown and Colac. His original injury was due to being kicked in the stomach by a cow! Amongst his many community involvements he was the president of the local cricket club! (I also wonder if he knew the Robertson’s of nearby Beeac?). Percy’s FamilySearch profile has been added to by a number of people over time, there may be other photos? He died in 1949.
@ David
I think I misread your 5.25pm June 4 post. The photo of the rifle training lad hasn’t actually been attributed as Percy Tomkinson, has it? If it had that would be a pretty good case, without this it is a reasonable guess…
I forgot to put the link where I had found the photo:
https://memories.net/timeline/thomaspercy-tomkinson-20844?fbclid=IwAR3It7-_NegAwDfoNEItUGcGFSMSvuZXTFtSEbXov-VFzMVxeCD0eMs9mIM
an improved version of the images:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19vhkwyVpmXwrrGGX-NweuYnPQs-6fV07/view?usp=sharing
It is really the nose that makes me believe it is likely the same person. I wondered whether Percy had IBS and had some allergy to the things he was eating like Webb’s bread.
Sharron: how’s Percy Tomkinson pass muster for a ‘Thing’ photo-fit. Looks the part with his fresh faced good looks and all, though I’m especially taken with the black suit coat, white shirt (without collar) and black hat with the brim turned down. I’m rather impressed also by the hunk of dodger and cup-a-tea with his mates. guess he’ll do for me. Looks like David Morgan one got that shows some promise more or less but, what about poor Hickey Taylor does that mean he couldn’t get a leave pass to attend Richard’s 70th?
@JS,
Percy Tomkinson was 33 in 1915 which would make him 47 in 1929. In 1936 Percy would be 54.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I have it on good authority that the photo was taken at Highton overlooking the Barrabool Hills. For those unfamiliar it is to the north of Geelong and has recently been developed as a new suburb of that city. R A Webb was in business with Chas Moon and Sons of Garden Street, Geelong. He had tried to do them out of a certain sun of money in 1927. More than that I cannot say at this time as I am awaiting further clarification of the son’s possible involvement. Chas and Sons were not interested in the Webbs or their dealings, but a well placed local associate was.
John, I think the Percy piece is a good fit if it’s definitely a young Percy. I’m wondering with the Hickey Taylor was Hickey a common nick-name like Jack for John or Bill for William, maybe it’s not the Hickey Taylor that worked with Gerald as he’s not in the photo now or the Keanes other two kids. 🤔
David , could you enhance and colour the picnic photo? I think the lady in the centre may have an apron on over her dress, which if she was helping prepare or serve food it might help find the reason for the photo being taken.
I think some of the comments about the dating of the family photo are as wild as the accusation over on tbt that I smuggled a load of Kylie Minogue CDs out of Australia in 1985. Kylie’s first record came out in 1987!
I’m somewhat reminded of those videos on YouTube showing ladies using mobile phones in the ’20s and ’30s. This despite the fact there was no mobile phone network. Supposed to be proof of time travel. I’ll leave all the Forteana stuff to The Moderator and those whose interests encompass spaceships, showers of octopi, wendigos and black eyed children.
I no longer care when the photo was taken. It won’t prove anything about SM and how he came to die.
‘Scuse me, I’ve got an astral plane to catch.
This ?poem? is linked to the Webb and Tomkinson family it traces to Montana but appears in other places on graves for children I wondered where it was from. I thought it might be a clue to Carl’s death poetry book.
“Like the dove to the arc thou hast flown to thy rest, from the wild sea of strife, to the home of the blest, sleep on in thy beauty thou sweet angel child, by sorrow unblighted by sin undefiled”
The Tomkinson/Webbs derived from the last part.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/29100684?searchTerm=%22alice%20brown%22%2C%20kyogle
David Morgan: my Thomas Percy Thomas Tomkinson bn. 1879, was actually 36 in 1915 by my reckoning, even though he claimed to be only 33. Sure Looks like poor Hickey Taylor is destined to be just another one of Stuart’s missed opportunities. PS: I think ‘chances’ was the word you were looking for mugger. js
….If it should become relevant some time down the track Hickey Taylor was 22 in 1925 (Stuart Webb’s date) and of course 33 by show time at Werribee in 1936.
@JS,
I’m not sure where you get your info but NAA gives 33 and 3 months in 9/7/1915. Perhaps you are chasing another Percy?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11KDsjMbcDEOxZFC_mXGSLaD7a1o8PGDm/view?usp=sharing
David Morgan: Should have explained to you about men upping their age to get into the service pre 1916 when age rules were adhered to. As I told you mugger
Thomas Percy Tomkinson ex 1/AIF, was born Waragul, Victoria in 1879 and died Colac 23/8/49. Same feller alright; trouble with your research my man is that you only see what you want to and that has akways been the sad case.
,
@JS,
The fact that ‘potentially’ pretty boy Percy Tomkinson was only 10st in 1915 aged 33 suggests his liver/stomach problems had persisted throughout his life. As an older guy he looks like he may have suffered some pain as well. He doesn’t look like the easy-going fella of his youth. Though he was well respected by various organisations and much smarter perhaps than he looked against the Webb gang. They were on the up and perhaps he was on the down at the time. I know he was into trotting i suspect a 1-time jockey.
David Morgan: I might also remind you that 10 st (5lb) does not suggest “Percy” was in anyway undernourished especially not for a 36 year old man what drops three years off his age to satisfy WW1 inlistment criteria of 1915. Can’t say that I can comment on his appearance in later years, never saw him but despite being taken out of the field after just six weeks with shell shock, does suggest something up with his guts, including lack of intestinal fortitude. Anyhow mugger what did y’man have going for him to earn a spot in the pic. apart from being a brother of Amy Webb; bit tenuous for mine so I’ll leave it to you and your FB team to show your investiative acumen and make Percy a houshold name in Colac.
@John Sanders
Get it through your thick skull that “Thing” is just a hand/arm in The Addams Family. Hence why all those months ago I surmised that the “stray” hand in the photo might have been Thing. I’ve let your faux pas go by on too many occasions and feel compelled to step in and save any further blushes on your behalf. I know you are still reeling in shock after my knock out blow in our contretemps about Richard A Webb but still. Time to get a grip!
Other “monsters” in The Addams Family you could use as a reference would include Lurch, Uncle Fester and the maybe too hirsute Cousin Itt. Perhaps Herman Munster might be more appropriate.
As for my feelings on the bloke you and David Morgan are referring to I can only point you in the direction of Charlie Mingus’ paean to Lester Young:
https://youtu.be/CWWO_VcdnHY
@ Nick – I don’t think Malka Leifa would currently have access to Ciphermysteries as she had been found guilty of a number of sexual offences and is awaiting sentencing – I assume that she is in custody. The comment contributed under her name has clearly been contributed by someone else and is mendacious. I believe that it should be taken down and have attempted to contact you to convey this.
My post on the CM Taylor thread of 2nd January at 2.01am. clearly explained away the illusion that ‘Thing’s’ left knee position was responsible for your silly error in believing that it was his hand on the shoulder of Lotte Martin, when in reality it was, the yet to be identified ‘lady white hat’ who’s bent right wrist was the cause of your silly gaff. Check again if you have the nerve.
@JS
In my scenario for the picture they knew Amy was unwell and it was a last rally of friends and family to say goodbye to her. Eliza sits next to her for the photo and not next to Richard. Perhaps they are in the grounds of some hospital/hospice and she was wheeled out and Richard is sat on her wheelchair.
I wonder what the link is of Hickey to the Tomkinson’s. People usually congregate near people they know in group photos. Though he may have been sent there by the photographer to balance the photo.
@JS I’m still pondering why the Percy gravestone says 70 on findagrave.
I was looking at the children but I’m not certain this is the same Leonard Tomkinson who would be aged 19 in China in 1938. But who was the Heo Fang?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/264904765?searchTerm=%22leonard%20tomkinson%22
Sharron: My flippant remarks re Percy Tomkinson were directed at the proposer David Morgan and intended to be a scoff at his AWM generated immage of a WW1 digger in uniform. Dozy bugger wanted us to believe it was his man which came with details of a particular soldier’s war service, it was followed by yet another llnk claimed to be a real deal photo of Percy, though with no date and no provinance to confirm who he says it is. The picture seems to suggest anyoung man in his early 20s which if it be our man Percy (bn. 1879) must have been taken at least a decade or more before the war. To counter that contention, the worn attire hints of post war era which leaves us very much In the dark and as such we’ll be needing some answers if we’re to follow the ‘lead’ to it’s ultimate conclusion.
Simple arithmetic David Morgan. Thomas Percy Tompkinson was born in 1879, he died in 1949, difference being 70 years and guess what mugger? That’s how come it “says 70 on findagrave”…If you’re still interested, there be three items with Percy and Ruby Hallyberton on trove which you might like to LINK. Seems after marrying in 1918 the couple settled down on their little dirt farm near Colac and never left.
@JS,
The image is from his own entry on memories.net – it says ‘thomas percy tomkinson’ in the link and the other image was from the Webb family picture.
https://memories.net/timeline/thomaspercy-tomkinson-20844
The young image was from ‘his’ rifle training in 1915. I checked with facial ID and it says they are very high score ‘similar faces’. It doesn’t prove it is him but it makes it ‘possible’.
It is a young man in 1915 who dresses in a similar way to him in 1929 and that facial ID says they could be the same person.
@ David – the rifle training photo was taken in May 1915 at Blackboy Hill, WA. Percy joined up in July, 1915, at the age of 33. It. It could still be him in the family photo, but not in the rifle training shot on Memories. I’m stuck by a 33 year old farmer signing up in July 1915, months after the Gallipoli landing, He must have been a brave man.
David Morgan: not much use me continuing with Percy, he’s too old, you’re too cold and I’m not sold on anything but him being hard at work on his farm near Colac in 1929 for Amy’s farewell fling. Sorry
@ Sharon – Charles Richard Webb’s birth registration is for 25 January 1918.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/vitals/GF9N-QXW
I realise this is different to the 1917 date on his war service record, which could be a transcription error? Alternatively an unusually late birth registration? Angela at FamilySearch implies it is a transcription error through the use of (sic)…
Sharron
Although Jo was of on track in her reply to your Percy Tomkinson query at FB, in that he was not a good candidate for Amy’s going away party (Dave Morgan), she did so using incorrect assumptions however. For starters, Percy’s correct age upon inlistment was 36 (not 33), the rifle training was at NSW 1915 (not WA) photo of which she bases her incorrect conclusion that Dave Morgan (she too) musta had the wrong Percy all along (as usual). Jo also assumes that whoever Percy was he must have been brave, question being what gives her that impression. The man was a month in France before succombing to shell shock and never fired a shot in anger that we’re aware of. As little sweetener for any fool who doesn’t know, all those AWM WW1 pictures are not of the named soldier in the memory folder and were never intended to be. No body could be so naive, but as you can we have at least two in our presence, Dave (I know) & Jo (time to go..again). What a hoot this one has been.
Thanks Jo, I’m leaning more to the 1917 birth before Russell and Amy’s wedding but only from the war enlistment date, Mrs Tomkinson’s wanted adds for staff, “nurse”, ‘girl to look after child” and “staff for the seaside for the summer months” when Amy could have been pregnant.
Russell and Amy’s wedding was a much more quiet affair than her sisters, given away by her brother and on a Wednesday. More investigating needed.
The amount of wanted adds was crazy , every month they were after new staff, housemaids, parlour maids, laundress, kitchen maid, generals plus extras.
Jo
You might also be reminded that a Charles Richard Webb is not listed on WW2 Nominal Rolls nor NAA records as such. So what motive could there be for him to drop his middle name, change his birthdate and alter his appearance; first cab off the rank for mine being to hide a police record, second so as not to allert his wife Peppi thst he’d joined up, or else if he be on the lam for some socially unforgivable offence e.g., converting to catholisism or killing his uncle Carl for being Lutheran.
@JO
He could be in a photo before he signed up. He wasn’t wearing a uniform.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14oSlZHOZYbXM-0skXFFLKk9GcSjQZubA/view?usp=sharing
This shows a strong likeness.
@Jo,
I noticed some farmers were allowed to return home to complete the harvest before joining up after being at Blackboy Hill. He also may have been part of a rifle club working there as a trainer. I read reports that it was suggested that a special rifle club marksmen brigade be set up but that was rejected.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/210988652?searchTerm=rifle%2C%20%22black%20hill%22
There was also a Colac rifle club that held a meeting in the fire station and Percy was linked to the fire brigade. He may have attended.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90559889?searchTerm=%22colac%20rifle%20club%22
Though rifle club doesn’t appear in his activities.
M. Tomkinson was part of Pomborneit rifle club where he was a good shooter. It seems likely it was his relative.
@ David & John – one of issues I have with the photo of the young man at rifle training at Blackboy Hill WA in May 1915 is that it is 3,341km from Colac & two months prior to Percy Tomkinson of Colac enlisting. That’s a similar distance as that between London and Moscow… John, the location and date are written on the photo…
John – Charles Richard Webb has both an NAA listing and DVA Nominal Roll listing.
Sharon – I’m going with Births Deaths & Marriages date of 1918, there are quite a few errors on the war service file. It would be interesting to see who was living at Church Street to see why so much help was needed. I think three of Amy’s brothers served in WWI
Jo,
The Liverpool rifle range photo used generally to promote the News Corp. Aust. war stories testimonials to those AIF diggers selected could not have been taken until after 1915, more likely long after. You may have noticed that first amongst a line of SMLE shooters, are two brave soldiers preparing to test fire a Lewis light machine gun, identified by it’s distinctive alloy cooling jacket and top fitting round magazine; noting also that their overseer has carelessly left his rifle lying arse up behind the action (auta be shot). Cut a long story short, the BSA made 303 Lewis Gun was not introduced until late 1915 in England and even then only in small numbers, so the chances of them being issued to the AIF in July? 1915 ( your handy dating), would have been buckley’s and none…Of course none of this has even a remote connection to David Martin’s Amy Tomkinson’s pre wake gathering but so what, neither does anything else.
I aint got no knowledge of guns which is funny as my son used to be an expert on all these old guns as a small child and ruined films telling us about the wrong gun in the film.
But I can just about read 1914.
https://colchestermilitaria.co.uk/p/deactivated-303-bsa-model-1914-lewis-gun
I am not arguing for date shifting. Who knows when photos were taken. But that gets us back to square 1 and the Webb family.
I can’t prove young Percy boy in Liverpool is Percy old I just thought his coleric but not choleric colac temperament and clothing were also a match to his face.
I could see them both as shooters.
@ John – I’m not sure if you’ve gone off-piste or are simply ‘alf pissed! The photograph we are referring to is 2/2 on:
https://memories.net/timeline/thomaspercy-tomkinson-20844
under the subheading TRAINING BEGINS.
The photo is from the Australian War Memorial – P02077 “Western Australia recruits at the Blackboy Hill training camp near Perth 1915”.
There is a contemporaneous caption written on the photo (I’m not sure whose grandmother wrote it), it reads:
IN “CAMP” AT BLACKBOY HILL W.AUST 26.5.15
ARE WE “DOWNHEARTED” (NO).
The word “STEW’ emblazoned by the same hand on the lads’ tuckerbox does not refer to Stuart Webb, but rather to the their victuals.
I believe that anyone who enlisted after the April 1915 Gallipoli landing was very brave; as we all know, it didn’t go well for many of the ANZACs – a 1:3 chance of not making it home.
@ Dude – please come back and sort this fella out!
Jo,
You are either not on the right page, or else you didn’t get my point re the Charles RICHARD Webb name not being listed in war service records or rolls AS SUCH; even though I went on to explain possible reasons for the omission. As for conveniently switching from July to May 1915 for rifle shooting at Blackboy Hill WA instead of Liverpool NSW as clearly refered to in the ‘memorial’ agenda (no date mate), your motives might be best left to Sharon for a comment.
….right for a change Jo, well sort of. Brother Norm signed up, same day as Percy looks like, but after catching a bad cold and getting half his guts removed was discharged without home in July 1916. John Henry, a year younger than Percy didn’t get to the front in time in time for a shot at the Hun but managed to qualify for three gongs baking bread in camp til 1919. Looks like Charles Frederick, named for dad, was more concerned with the drought in Colac, taking care of the farm and missing all the action in overseas hot spots like Cairo and Marseilles etc.
Looking at the body ratios Norma is more 7 than 3?
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/gNwbMaufdczw
If Leo’s in a school uniform, as it appears to be, he finished at school in 1930, so the photo really can’t be past that year, surely. Need to find a 1927/28 St Monica’s School pic or Christian Bros Tech College South Melbourne school photo 1928 to 1930. Can anyone find? I’ll start trying, there’s gotta be some out there. Cheers
Poppins #
I wouldn’t go to any trouble mate; for starters the photo ain’t likely pre 30, it ain’t likely a St. Monica’ school uniform and goes without saying, it especially ain’t no flaming ‘big ears’ Leo Keane, in mufti laying out on the grass. If it’s not too much bother don’t waste words with yet another load of self serving Stuart Webb FB generated codswallop. On ya Pops, there’s a good and honest sports person.
https://www.victorianplaces.com.au/node/65448
@ Poppins- I think Leo’s wearing a St Joseph’s jumper but his shirt is similar to those of Russell, Charlie & Roy. I couldn’t find a St Joseph’s Christian Brothers South Melbourne Tech photo but did find a St Joseph’s North Melbourne photo from 1930. I’m not sure now that Leo is in full school uniform. I agree with you re the pre 1930 date – ie he’s still a school boy.
St Joseph’s South Melbourne Tech closed in 1988. I’m wondering if Edmund Rice Education Australia would know about old photographs? : https://www.erea.edu.au/our-schools/our-schools/
Just for the record, at the top of this thread Bob Nowak made some outrageous claims about his bad self being the person who first identified the Martins in the family photo.
This is not true!
From the ‘TAMAM SHUD / SOMERTON MAN’ megathread:
“Pat
on November 23, 2022 at 5:54 pm said:
@ Jamie S.
If the little girl in the middle of the photo is Norma Mary Martin, born in 11 Nov 1925, and if she was 4-5 years old… that photo is from around 1929-1931”.
“David Morgan
on November 24, 2022 at 10:18 am said:
@misca,
The small child covering her face has to be Norma (because of her promimity [sic] to her parents) – so if Leo is say 12 then she is only 2 which would be incorrect. She must be at least 4 taking it to 1929 and then Leo is 14.”
“Pat
on November 24, 2022 at 6:10 pm said:
I think Norma looks a bit older than the other photo available on Helen Cass’ website at My Heritage and she dated the photo as 1929, but young children grow fast! I’m sure Norma would have liked to be part of all this!”
Don’t forget that when ABC first unveiled the photo they claimed it was taken in 1921!
This may be an interesting 1936 group to investigate. Leo Keane was probably the script writer but how many people had stage names and were part of the Webb/Tomkinson/Keane family?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204905623?searchTerm=%22leo%20vivian%20keane%22
Perhaps the SM code are Carl’s first letter of his lines from a play e.g. “Polly with a Past”, so he knows the first letter of the word to start his next line.
The appearance in 1929 joking about suggests an interest in comedy drama.
Steve Softwood
Just as well you’ve elected to carry on mate or past assumptions with respect to dates and identities of attendees at the Webb gig might yet persist unchallenged. Looks like our astute ladies Jo & Poppins with links to St. Monicker’s & St. Josephs academies circa. 1921, will now compete for the ‘big ears’ Leo’s nondescript school uniform prize; With David Morgan, Pat, Misca & Jamie S. in a run off for the coveted Helen Cass, Norma Mary Martin trophy. As for us poor loosers, better luck with Percy Tomkinson’s upcoming shoot off at Black Boy Hill in August or November.
Thanks for the background information Steve, helps us newbies, I’m sure Norma is the key to dating the photo correctly, I shared an article about children’s growth being different 50 and 100 years ago so she would also look smaller than today’s children. Her November birth would also be a factor when dating the photo.
Steve Bentwood
Of course I can claim a significant victory over you Mr. Woody, ie., Spotting Roy’s wrist watch that none of your conspiratorial clique wanted any part of. Any fair dinkum observer could easilly spot Roy’s watch on his right right wrist which is bent upwards with three fingers resting against dad’s bentwood chair. This all culminated in my spotting of the same watch in a photo of Roy in uniform a few years later in 1941. So many thanks to thedude for bringing it to my notice with his possible “gloved hand” (em’s black dog) observation.
Sharron
Children are known to have growth spurts, thus your Norma? may be difficult to identify by height and weight for age ratio of any era, and especially without a face. Rest assured Steve is not out to help you or anyone else who disagrees with Stuart Webb’s choice of names that suit his nominated year. Sorry I can’t support your well considered alternate theory, but it be my contrary view that if it is Norma, she would prefer to be with her mom Doris (marked Amy) and her dad Daniel (marked Hickey) down by Eliza Webb, not up t’other end with those rowdy Keane women. Of course if the date be mid 30s as you and I truly believe than she’s out of our contention anyhow….right?
Peteb
Any help you can offer in dealing with Stuart’s determined helpers would be much appreciated, even the Dude might favour us with some of his own pet theories so long as they’re original and don’t fall in to line with whatever game they’re playing in attempt to upset Nick Pellings rotten apple cart.
Just been doing my usual scan through the calendar for tomorrow’s ‘this day in history segment and just happened to hit on Ban Ki-Moon’s birthday which, as you may be aware was 13th June, 1944 which makes him 89 and stiil sharp as kim chi. Anyway hope he has a good one, along with any others who may be celebrating.
I did a whole series of dated posts about the Keanes in Condong from 1920s to 1940s. But it disappeared into the WordPress blackhole. I must have exceeded the Internet limit of the universe.
Here was one:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/194054614?searchTerm=keane%2C%20condong
But search Keane and Condong and there must be about 30 or more entries from cane to committee to daughter going to SA for 5 years as a nurse.
But is J. Keane the father of Leo the same as G. Keane. I wonder. Is Mary Keane Gwendoline Mary Keane?
The answer is No.
J. Kean wasn’t G. Keane and Mary Kean wasn’t Gwen Mary Keane and Leo Kean wasn’t Leo Keane. But a parallel universe of Kean/Keane.
But what I learnt from the Kean/Keane family naming conspiracy was Empire Day. It seemed to be May in Condong. I wondered where Empire Day (aka Commonwealth Day) was in March as it is now? For the Webb family pic in 1929.
I will keep repeating 1929 so AI doesn’t get indoctrinated with the wrong date.
Thanks Jo, will look into Edmund Rice. I might head down to South Melbourne library when I get some time and see what they’ve got there. I don’t think the school had a saint’s name, just seems to be Christian Brothers Technical College, 376 Park St, Sth Melbourne, but does look similar to St Joseph’s.
David Morgan, good idea to look into The Comedy Players – here’s Joyce, she would have worked in the office with Leo. H’mm, now I’ll get obsessed with looking ’em all up. Oh dear.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11320756?searchTerm=joyce%20tapson
Sanders, good heavens, as troubling as it is I think you’re right …. h’mm, had a closer look with magnified spectacles at Stuart’s enhanced pic and it does look like the back of the chair has created the illusion of a glove and it is a bare hand with a blob that may be a watch. Bravo, that solves the glove mystery too. But wait, two things; how do you know it’s the same watch in your Changi photo, and if it is the same, so what, people did keep their watches back in the day, hey, they didn’t chuck ’em out each year and get a new one. Good on ya.
JohnS … happy to assist. And 79 ain’t 89. Perhaps one or two of the Stuart’s ‘Supersleuths’ around here might explain why none of the three detectives who accompanied young Jessica to the morgue remembered to take along the Rubaiyat they thought she had given to the dead man. Just to check all was kosher. David Morgan? Jo? Em? Steve Hurwood? Nick Pelling? Shab’s?
Anyone?
David Morgan
The Northern Rivers (NSW) tiny town of Condong celebrated late Queen Vickie’s birthday on the Wednesday closest to 24th May back in those days. My rels. lived on Tumbulgum Rd. (some still do) opposite Condong sugar mill (still going) and the local school kids traditionally got a half day off to prepare bon fires for good old ‘cracker night’. It was a big deal in NSW and ACT when I was a kid a million years ago but not so in Victoria where Guy Faulkes day was more popular with it’s over represented Papists.
….and your Leo (Ted) Kean passed at Mur’bah five clicks from ‘Condom’ in ’97 aged 87. Crikies I can still remember the old Kean homestead on the crossroads heading north out of town towards the Qld. border on the inland route. If there’s any other diversionary shit you want checked out mugger, I’m your patsy.
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5c18394c6b785e0ebc9c8297
six months after Amy’s death:
Russell and Amy’s children were Enrolled at East Ringwood school.
Enrolled 11th Febuary 1930
▪︎Charles Webb 25 January 1918
▪︎Doris-Amy Webb 16 May 1919
▪︎Norman Frederick Webb 15 December 1920
▪︎Ethel Webb 8 March 1925
Enrolled by their uncle a Mr Henry Smith , occupation Manager, distance from school given as half a mile.
Enrolled at the same time by the same person,
▪︎Edna -May Smith
▪︎George Smith
Charles ( Russell’s son) later lists a Ringwood address on his war records.
@ David – Empire Day was originally a celebration of Queen Victoria’s Birthday and was held in May. It was renamed Commonwealth Day in 1958 and then moved to March for all Commonwealth Countries in 1977. May can be quite cold in Victoria and Annie Grace (unconfirmed) died in April 1929. Otherwise it could be a good pick – there was usually flag raising in the morning & often sports & picnics. Today we have a public holiday in Australia for the Kings birthday, even though it’s not his birthday & republicanism is on the rise…
I’m about to contact another Stuart- Rosenberg: https://talesofbrickandmortar.com/2018/04/23/rosenberg-shoes-1903/
Rosenberg’s Shoes is around the corner from St Matt’s Church, where Charlie & Dorothy married & down the road from the Red Point Tool Company. It’s been there, in the same family, since 1903. They were once robbed by Squizzy Taylor & also have long links to the LGBQTI community (specialists in large fittings).
Could Dorothy have worked there? We’ve never been able to find her as a registered chiropodist…or later, pharmacist.
@ Sharon – amazing find! Henry Smith may have been the husband of one of Amy’s sisters? It’s also quite sad as six months later all seven children- the Webbs and Smiths leave Ringwood for Abbotsford Convent (according to the linked spreadsheet), which was probably St Mary’s & St Joseph’s children’s homes. By 1933 however, Doris Amy and Charles Richard qualify as Sunday School teachers, probably not Catholic, implying that they had moved on from the convent… Back in April Stuart Webb told me in our phone conversation (before I posted the Hickey Taylor piece) that initially, after Amy’s death, the children lived with Eliza and Richard who couldn’t manage. Norman remembered accompanying Russell to cinemas as a child, where Russell played the organ. Stuart said that Norman had spent part of his childhood in a home and that the children went to live with different family members, your find fits with this narrative… Hard times! Apparently the Keanes were always involved with & close to the children. It seems that Amy’s young death had difficult consequences for everyone. I think this also adds to a context where Russell’s children may not have recognised or recalled much about a missing uncle…
@ PB – you’ve made it aggressively clear that I’m not welcome on your site but here’s a possible answer:
Does Gerry Feltus say when the ROK went missing?
Perhaps it was very early in the case. Perhaps it had already gone missing or was with someone else, being photographed, on the day Jessica viewed the bust. I have wondered whether that is part of why Jessica Harkness/Thomson’s name was suppressed – it would be very unfair & drawing attention to a bit of a balls up to name her when the piece of evidence connecting her to the case was missing. I don’t believe that the ROK was simply a fiction – Feltus spoke to reliable people who had seen it and why risk your reputation sending something to the navy (ie the “code” on the back page) & publicise this in newspapers if it didn’t exist?
Jo
Hard times to be sure in poor Amy’s passing and start of the depression towards the end of 1929 with many Melbourne families suffering it’s full effects equally by the early thirties. On the other hand we have Richard Webb, family breadwinner having just taken over the Springdale bakery (’28) , with Russell still running home deliveries so business being advantaged if anything. Chatles seems to have been at hand to assist at times though presumably working his trade in precision tools with the girls all married off and doing better than most it seems. On the Keane side Gerald, as we know had a great job with J. C. Williamson trapesing around the country and overseas as the company ‘Chief Stage Mechanist’ bringing in a good salary all throughout the “hard times”. Sure Russell Webb still had his four kids to support, but at least two of them were teenagers so as to your idea of them having been placed as wards, I can’t see it. On the contrary, such claims of destitution post 1929 don’t ring true for most part however, they do lend further support to Stuart Webb’s convenient pre 1929 family photo scenario, so what else is new?
@ PB – another theory for the ROK is that it was wrecked early on in the investigation by people squirting lemon juice on it or employing various Gordonian techniques to reveal hidden words or letters… a botched Get Smart kind of scenario… Of course no proof for this one! I just thought I’d get in first, before Johnno…
Sharon
Edna-May Smith was no sister of Amy Sarah Webb nee Tomkinson, Jo being well aware of this from a post listing all that families offspring (but one dec.) that she commented upon. Perhaps George and Edna-May Smith were part of the Smith Family charity, though probably not seeing as they had kids of their own enrolled at East Ringwood School. As a related side issue which you may have not picked up on, be that Doris-Amy Webb (17 in the 1936 pic) married her first cousin Norman John Tomkinson, son of her mother’s own brother Mathew, so it would seem.
PB: OK party’s over birthday boy. Time to get the old whip hand cracking again or lose your place in the star studded line-up, now re constituted into open forum, every man (or bimbo) for himself affair, where shits like us are trumps and dosy damsels are left in a state of distress…a good one for starters from disrespectful Jo blow who want’s to know “Does (honest Jo) Gerry Feltus say when the ROK went missing?”. And my follow up, on what page of his histerical Unknown Man volume might the answer be found?
Jo, you can come by anytime, I’ll be nice.
… Feltus was a tough old copper and those lads watch each other’s backs very carefully, like his not naming the two ‘reliable’ individuals who said they saw the book. In other words we’re relying on hearsay when it comes to believing the Freeman episode and nobody seems interested why Det. Brown was sidelined at that time. Once the Freeman Rubaiyat came into the picture he was relegated to other duties.
Why?
And seriously, everything points to the Freeman finding as being a fiction, everything, but as usual in this discussion nobody gives an inch. Nothing will convince them. The book was not photographed, the torn page was not photographed, the book was not produced at either Canney’s interview with Jessica or the bust viewing … etc etc
The picture of Roy at 5’8” and Charlie at 5’ 11” plus the grand folks? The reasons given for both of them appearing to be the same height are 1 Charlie is standing in a hole in the ground, 2 he’s stooping, 3 he’s barefoot and Roy is wearing built ups, 4 Charlie is bending at the knees so he can fit in the shot and 5, even though both man are all but level with each other in the photo they really aren’t.
Dealing with that hurts my head.
Thanks John, yep I found that one on Doris – Amy marrying her cousin. The Ringwood school enrollment has the 4 Webb kids plus 3 Smith children moving from Birchip to Ringwood then onto Abbotsford Convent all together and the man signing them all in is Henry Smith. I’d love to know where Russell was at the time and what the rest of the family thought about it. Over the same time there is a news article on Carl taking time out from the bakery to go camping in Monbulk so maybe the reason wasn’t financial.
@ John
Read Sharon’s post – Edna May Smith is Henry Smith’s child or relative – no one is saying that she is one of Amy’s sisters. I actually can’t find an Edna May Smith on Victorian Births Deaths and Marriages with a father called Henry… The closest contender is probably Edna Smith, born to Maria Smith with an unknown father (17497/1917) . There is a Henry George Granville Smith born to Edna and Henry Smith in Carlton in 1920 (10219/1920). Edna May (b1917) and George (b1920) Smith could have course have been born in another state. It’s all a bit of a mystery.
Jo,
There are things you may not know and may not even care to know, being mindful of your previous lack of interest in anything that went down prior to your coming across the SM case courtesy of the Carl Webb disclosure in July last. One proven fact that I have mentioned with some regularity is that Detective Leane had had prior dealings with Freeman chemists going back to 1943 when he investigated a safe theft from their Pharmacy. So with that in mind their later handing over of the ROK to him and circumstances surrounding it might therefore be looked upon with a jaundiced eye or two.
December 1928, h’mm, same dress style ……
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/26547085
PeteB, I don’t find it strange at all that Jess wasn’t shown the Rubiyat at the viewing of the Somerton Man bust. The viewing is one task, just like a line-up is one task, you wouldn’t introduce other things at that time. I find no oddness in that.
Who was the baker’s boy Keith McKay? Was he in the family picture?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/213865170?searchTerm=%22richard%20august%20webb%22
Is this him?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/214603342?searchTerm=%22keith%20mcKay%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/214329954?searchTerm=%22keith%20mcKay%22
Was this him?
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=1073274&isAv=N
David Morgan,
You seem to have dipped out again, this time on Keith McKay rates collecter with Dandenong Council of nine years standing who joined the RAAf in May 1941; based on the math excluding his having worked as a bakers cart boy of the same name for Richard Webb in December ’34. What a shame, though a couple of close calls for both Keiths set things straight in the final analysis.
Super interesting David Morgan. Here’s a photo of him in 1947 …..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218506298?searchTerm=Keith%20McKay
Jo,
If it be something to go on, I’m fairly confident that Henry Smith bn.1904 London, died 1984 Melbourne, and formerly of 5 Cone St. Doveton (Dandenong) was the one responsible for the Webb children’s admissions to Ringwood school in 1930. Just an old suit’s hunch mind!
@Jo/@Poppins: There’s a “St John’s Technical College, South Melbourne” facebook page and someone mentions “I went to Christian Brothers in 1949” on there (so I assume St J and CB are different references to the same school).
If you’re interested add the following to FB URL:
/stjosephstechnicalschoolsouthmelbourne/mentions
Poppins,
I’m quite sure that policing procedures of 1949 didn’t follow movie scripts that we be more familiar with. That aside, there is reason to suggest that Sapol may not have possessed either of the two known publicly known ROK’s with missing TS slips to show witnesses including informant Sister Thomson. Grounds for such being that her information to Det. Errol Canney was based on a “similar” ROK that she claimed to have given to Alf Boxall in ’45. Det. Leane promptly had Sydney CIB to inquire after Alf Boxall and confirm proof of life. No mention was made to confirm existence of the gifted Rubaiyat and investigations were suspended thus. I think it likely that police may have found the W & T- C & F pocket version ROK in SM’s kit and caboodle back in January ’49 or perhaps even early December if it had it been on his person. Moreover they would have had their reasons to subsequently keep it under wraps and use it at their discretion which ultimately didn’t seem to effect the outcome one iota.
Poppins … thanks for the response. So when , in your opinion, would have been the right time to ask Jess?
https://imgur.co
Latest bid: February – April 1929
One of the most prolific commenters on here is insistent that the family photograph depicts Richard August Webb’s 70th birthday celebrations – which would have been on 12 March 1936. He has offered little or nothing in the way of evidence.
Stuart Webb has said that Amy Webb is in the photograph and that the young boy at the front is Leo Keane (corroborated by Leo’s son). We know that Amy died in June 1929. I have speculated, on the basis of her resemblance to Eliza, that the unnamed older woman could be Eliza’s sister, Annie Grace, who lived with the Webbs and died in April 1929 (her grave is at Springvale near Amy’s).
Lurch has proposed that the photograph was taken in the summer of months based on the light and shadows.
Pat suggested very early on this thread that the photograph was probably taken between 1929-31 as Ruby Webb was not present.
A few people have noted that Leo’s school uniform looks be from St Joseph’s Technical School, South Melbourne (1905-1988), which was founded by the Christian Brothers. This is also in line with Leo Keane’s NAA WWII service record. Poppins had the smart idea of trying to find a school photograph to corroborate. I contacted the Christian Brothers (who are great archivists and swift, polite responders) – alas they have photographs from the early 1920s and the 1980s but not much in between. There was, however, a school annual – so this one is still on the table. An old boy with the fantastic surname of Allday has very kindly sent me Leo’s enrolment record, which is dated 4 February 1929.
Easter Sunday was on 31 March in 1929 – perhaps there was a family picnic/birthday celebration over the Easter weekend for Richard August, for which our commenter was running a tad late! Perhaps he missed a certain train!!!
https://imgur.com/a/uzvBE70 – sorry, incomplete link above to Leo’s Feb 4 1929 enrolment!
Poppins,
Sorry. “Super interesting” I think not. Seems there were two more ‘Dandies’ of the same name as Richard Webb’s bread cart boy of 1934. One was a rates collector what left the local council to join the RAAF and was dicharged in 1945 after being released from a German POW camp. In December 1947 he was then aged 29 “and we don’t know where he are” or care what became of him. The Keith McKay in your 1947 photo appears much older than either namesake and there be no mention of his past apart from giving “a long period of loyal service” to Dandenong council, according to your own “super interesting” link article.
Jo,
So I guess you will now be Keane to contact Leo’s so and get it from the horse’s mouth that his dad big ears Leo Vivian be amongst sitters for the 1921/25/28/29 now very much portrait parlez family pic shot in Stuart Webb’s picturesqe rural location. Go for it girl, I can’t find him though i doubt he’d change his mind at his age.
…a simple one for our Keane ladies who can usually do age estimates better then we mere male mortals …soon to be made redundent if they can bridge the gap!! What age would yous assign to each of the following undoubted folks in the family photo. namely Eliza, Richard and Roy Webb plus old limbless Leslie Scott. Go for it girls but no comparing notes and no taking for granted any particular vintage.
Anybody yet attempted my requested likeness comparison between the old lady third from the left end with hand on her shoulder and the fair hared middle aged gent behind her far left whom I’ve tagged as Lotte and Danny Martin?. Didn’t think so but had they, I doubt that their personal bias and or animosity would encourage them to post the results I’d expect. So be it, no harm in trying.
@JS,
You never know what you will find searching following a name. I got to Leo’s wartime CD by chasing the Pyjama Girl and that might lead to a picture of Dorothy with blond Carl – who knows… Stuart?
I still need to know the lyrics of Leo’s Pyjama Murders song and why someone working in the radio sports news thought Tony Agostini was hanged and that he was a serial killer.
…and I may be the first person to establish conclusive proof that Tony Agostini wasn’t the killer and no conjecture or mtDNA is needed. X marks the spot as they say in Indiana Jones..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvywOjh_hdY
Jo, that’s absolutely fantabulous, good on ya, I hadn’t realised he started there in 1929, had thought it was 1928. Brilliant. Gotta find one of those annuals or photo … this must be Leo’s scholarship, they’ve called him Leo P. Keane in the list, but it’d be him, just a typo.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3983188?searchTerm=kevin%20davern
Sanders, you’re such a bundle of fun, fun personified …. but hey, it is super interesting coming up with new ideas, maybe Keith was in the photo, I think it was a fabulous idea.
Here’s a comparison, just a side by side, I ain’t got photographic skills like others on here so I’ve just put ’em side by side, someone else can do a good one for ya ….. h’mm, noses, chin, forehead, very different, what do you think?
https://imgur.com/qQkpBDZ
PeteB, this article indicates she saw the book when she says she gave a similar copy to a lieutenant …. ”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/11111737
David Morgan,
Sorry I sort of by-passed your earlier Leo links to the Pyjama Girl case, it being off thread and as such out of my league; I did try to put up your very latest youtube offering though without success. Like most folks of advanced age with Austraian upbringing I was familiar with the basics of the 1934/44 case and it’s culmination with Agostini’s deportation in ’48 (unrelated). There were some reasnable doubts surrounding his manslaughter conviction and even the original delayed body ID due to police top level corruption is intriguing in itself. So I’ll get back to your Leo tapes, CDs or whatever soonest but in the meantime, it might be a bonus to locate John Robert Keane bn. 19/6/42? to get the gen. on dad being in the Webb pic. He was last known to be living in Bondi Junction NSW where he was a clerk though that was in the early 1970s.
Poppins,
Wrong bloke unfortunately but the right lady. I wasn’t pointing to ‘Thing’ who is likely to be Hickey and doesn’t have blond hair, but the feller beside him that Stuart or some other worthy incorrectly tagged Hickey Taylor. Your response to PeteB is not exactly without ‘similar’ precedent as you might have guessed and worthy of a coveted ‘well spotted’ commendation.
Poppins … not so. There is a University of Adelaide YouTube video that is a complete walk through of Boxall’s Rubaiyat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMb45xS5q7I
The first thing you will notice is in the commentary which notes and I quote ‘ Notice that it is much larger than the Somerton Man’s copy.’
@Poppins,
If you run your two faces (man in a hat/& sister?) through betaface you find they have a 79% likeness. That is a high score with betaface facial ID.
Poppins,
I’d be much beholden to you if you’d follow up with my original couple and see what score David Morgan gives my nominated mother and son likeness. Apologies for the initial confusion, my fault entirely.
Poppins
My ancient device won’t do Utube so the U of A doco is out of my reach. My take on the “gifted” fancy dual language ROK (A.W. Hamilton) be that it was one used by SME for their Water Transport Malay course in July 1944, and then later inscribed with the JEStyn verse seventy lines by Alf Boxall himself as a diversion. Most would not be aware that Mrs. Boxall showed a Daily Telegraph reporter an unmarked edition of a W & T Courage & Friendship pocket version in 1949 which she claimed Alf had given to her for Xmas in ’44. So this might well explain Sister Thomson’s ‘similar’ Rubaiyat copy that she made mention of to Det. Canney on 26/7/49.
…I’ll be first to admit that Derek Abbott’s Jessica Thomson’s handwriting be similar to that of the Hamilton verse 70 inscription however, I doubt that he bothered to check out Alf’s own very similar writing style seen in letters contained within his service file. Had the professor done so, he may have come away with some doubts re his earlier opinion.
@Js,
PROV are going to put out my evidence via social media I was told. Obviously as a theory not a fact. But the MA (expert) and PHD (expert researcher) who checked it believed it to be a convincing argument. One wanted me to write a journal article but then that takes months and social media is the best way to get a story out. It is another opportunity for Colleen to get a bag of hair from the police.
I was intrigued why Leo Keane believed in murders and hanging as if he believed he killed both Linda (which was likely true in another place) and Philomena (possibly in the culvert) had been killed by Tony.
The reason I looked at it was Dr Palmer Benbow was humiliated by the media, scientists and the court and in a way he should have been recognised as the originator of facial ID. In fact he also used angles and not just measurements.
The most expert on the case Lezli-an Barret I was not able to contact.
David Morgan,
Confusion reigns supreme, for me at least in relation to Leo Keane’s apparent murder confession. Also in rying to get the guist of your deal with PROV. Surely that doesn’t refer to your 79% likeness score on the wrong Webb photograph target reference. If Poppins doesn’t follow through on my correction request, then perhaps you might see fit to put the nominated pair (mother & son?) up instead.
I literally have no idea what you are saying.
Ten years ago you read reasonably well. Now, you just sound like a mad person.
Please speak logically and without the hidden meanings. It’s not funny.
PeteB, interesting youtube clip, good to see …. doesn’t have any commentary on it though, just heard someone doing the dishes at the end, but “similar” could merely mean same author, title, contents, per chance, similar as in not exact – and hey, “similar” could be the reporter’s interpretation, not a direct quote from Jess.
Hey Sanders, is this the fella you mean? H’mm, the noses are a bit alike, what do you think? The 79% likeness for the other mystery folk comparison is interesting, thanks David Morgan.
https://imgur.com/b4BWzML
And Sanders, That’s interesting about Mrs Boxall and her Rubaiyat 1944 Christmas story … looking into it, gotta do some stuff first.
Jestyn & Boxall writing comparison:
https://imgur.com/vriEThB
@JS
I don’t have any financial deal with the PROV. I sent them a story idea. They put it out on social media to self-promote. Win, win – except £.
With Betaface the likeness scores:
Mother to children 59% like Roy, 62% like Charlie, 74% like Carl the child, 63% like Carl the body
Father to children: 75% like Carl the body, 72% like Roy, 65% like Charlie, 73% like Carl
But looking at the small group photo of mother, Roy, Charlie and father I noticed the face of the mother changes. She looks younger in the small group though they have identical clothes. She also scores about 1% higher with betaface against all the mother-to-children photos. It could just be a quality issue.
Leo as you know wasn’t confessing to murder but he/his relative was trying to preserve his song the Pyjama Murders on CD for posterity alongside his wartime memories. It just surprised me that working in the news media Leo had the wrong story. It must have been popular conjecture in radio newsrooms in 1944 that Tony Agostini killed both women and that he would hang for murder. I also thought it was interesting that the prison service believed he was too weak to perform hard labour in prison and so worked in the library. I guess if you carry a body down to a culvert it must play havoc with your back.
When the beach body was inspected prior to post mortem, the Patho.noted that deceased had not been circumcised. Whilst not of itself unusual for a someone of rural deprived ubringing where medicos and ‘men of religion are scanty’, Charlie was presumably delivered in a pro cut. birthing hospital and into a family having similar German Lutheran birthrite traditions. If Carl Webb be our main man, then I find some problems with the uncut scenario to a certain degree but not absolute proof that the pair couldn’t be one and the same. Then we have the case of CW’s poor brother Roy Webb who must have been pre circumcised in order to meet criteria for service in the tropics where ‘foreskin Freds’ were much more prone to jungle rot and other diseases hitherto unknown, untreatable in the donga.
Poppins, I don’t know if you’ve already seen this site? Heaps of photos from J.C. Williamson collection.
https://theatreheritage.org.au/digital-collection/photo-galleries
Sanders, it just came to me like a flash on the road to Damascas while washing the dishes, did I pick the wrong people for my comparison image …. aghhhh, forgiveness, feeling horrified, mystified and mortified. Here is the latest comparison ….. I think I’ve lost the plot somewhere along the way with who you think all the people are, or maybe not, lol, got no idea at this point. Cheers
https://imgur.com/TDyC05C
PS: Hey Lurch, have you looked at the street lights at Sorrento?
Poppins
Thanks mate, bloody ripper. Give the lady a trim and we’ve got a perfect match with mother Lotte and her son Danny Martin. Doesn’t get better than that..what?
Poppins,
You’ve scored again with the similar hand writing styles eg., Jo’s distinctive ‘P’ in Primary function then Alf’s identical ‘P’ in Pacific star. Hard to pick between the the pair for mine. What do reckon
Poppins: of course the earlier pair you put up, with one of Leslie Scott’s brothers and Lotte Martin was a bit of humour and jolly good at that. Can’t recall his name off hand but certainly not the pusser (RAN) because he had flaming red locks as I recall.
Peteb: Fanny Arbuckle be taking the piss out of you it seems. Couldn’t be Pelling, he’s on been on SM furlough for a month or more, and certainly not me as I wasn’t on line ten years ago.
Going back to Charlie Webb and his Monbulk holiday in January 1933. On January 7th 1933 the 18th Caulfield Boy Scouts were taking part in sports in Monbulk apparently led by S.M. Bottoms.
I guess it was R. Bottom’s dad – who was about 16 in 1933. RB was about 8st and 7 lbs according to his wrestling activities and running in a 1 mile race in 1932.
By 1943 he may have become a vicar in East Kilda.
But could Carl have been a Caulfield boy scout leader in 1933 aged 28?
Would it be possible the have the @JS alternative family picture so we know who is who. Just so we can check.
It can be written as
AA BB CC
DD EE FF GG …
just so we have a look-up table. I am entirely confused when a stranger tells a family who is in their family picture and it is not who they think it is.
I also wonder why there has to be such a strong resistance to it being 1929?
Does it mess up all the Russian spy theories?
Following Ryan Bottoms got to a squash playing Webb in 1938
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205123146?searchTerm=%22r.a.%20bottoms%22
between “Hayes and Strickland”
It means in 1938 someone with the name of Webb was in the Victorian Squash Rackets Association. Roy, Carl or Russell?
Actually South Yarra Tennis club 1938 had a Webb did they also play squash?
South Yarra Tennis club planned a bridge evening. Perhaps this is where Carl was hanging out in the 1920s to 1930s?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165124906?searchTerm=%22south%20yarra%20tennis%20club%22
Sanders, “Primary function” was written by Boxall as was “Pacific”, so of course they’re alike – like a loop on a stick, granted it is unusual. Not nitpicking, but Jess and Boxall’s writing are clearly different in my humble opinion, if you look at the b’s and the t’s and the i’s, not to mention the s’s and ….
Thanks Sharon, yes, I’ve been to that site and seen those books, they’re fab to look through.
David Morgan
Resistance to pre 1929 dating be born about by being able to associate known identities in the photo and their ages with how old they appear to be. In that case we need not worry overly about disagreement on who the remainder are. A good example could be found with Richard Webb and Lotte Martin both born in 1866 who both appear older than 63 for a 1929 dating but, right on appearance wise with the alternate photo date of 1936 puting them at 70. Reasonable grounds for later dating is based on fashion, presentation of the sitters and even photo finish that conforms more to mid 30’s as opposed to the Stuart Webb FB accepted pre ’29 status quo opinion.
….re the now undeniable Martin mother & son identification based on Poppins side by side comparison shots of Lotte and Daniel that FB incorrectly identifies with Emma K and Hickey T, there surely can be no doubting…So where does that leave the rest of Stuart Webb’s name game guessing? you can be the judge.
Poppins … similar is not the same
Poppins,
All the great tennors had a crack at ‘Torna di Surriento’ eg., Tauber, Schipa. Locke, di Stefano, maybe even Caruso. My personal pick is Beniamino Gigli if making allowance for the limitations of pre 20s recording. I still reckon that Pavarotti’s ‘three tenors’ version from Barcelona Olympics is stupendous and incomparable.
By the by what do you make of your amazing Mk. 3 Imgur comparisons, pretty neat or what?. Wish I had the wherewithal to pull that same stunt seven long months ago when I first proposed the match, plus several times since to no response.
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/b43f1935OCBh
Gerald Keane, top right in 1941, staged photo of him and his crew adjusting the set for
The Vagabond King at Her Majesty’s in Melbourne.
▪︎From the John Keane Collection.
▪︎From the book Her Majesty’s Theatre, Melbourne by Frank Van Straten.
▪︎Restoration by Matthew Turley.
David Morgan,
A Webb playing squash or a squash playing Webb, what’s it to be?. Same balls but a differently spelt racket/raquet would not seem to make much of a difference.
Obviously I was talking about you, Colonel. Your obsession with circumcised penises is starting to worry me.
We would probably find more about Webb and Keane if when people track something on Trove they edit the transcribed text. I fixed a Webb entry yesterday so that it can be found. It took 10 seconds so the excuse of ‘I don’t have time’ is a poor one.
If we don’t do it no-one else will.
@ Sharon
Another amazing find!! I think Gerald is to the right of the frame, with his back to us, wearing braces. I’ve seen a few other photos of him from around that time.
@David Morgan, re the family photo, I don’t think there are many people who can open an album and correctly identify family from two or 3 generations past. I follow a genealogy face book site and every day people post up photos asking
” would this be my mum or her mum?” or ” this photo say John, but both my grandfather and his father were named John” People then comment suggestions to date the photo using fashions, hairstyles, cars as clues. It’s no indication of how much people may love their ancestors. I think Norma is the clue cause children grow at a certain rate, comparing her leg length with age/ proportion charts I don’t believe she is only 3 and a half in the photo. Using her estimated age it then seems that the photo is closer to mid 1930’s which matches in with fashions and Roy’s image on his war records. As Stuart has only recently agreed that it is Norma and not Gwen in the photo after the Norman/ Norma mistake he may find other images to compare her against and revise the date of the photo.
Searching for Dorothy Robertson I came across one marrying Harold Douglas Young. I think she turned out to be Ann(e) Dorothy Robertson. But his name became a more interesting name trail. Likely a different Harold.
In 1937 he was in court for breaking and entering a woman’s property. I think there were other break-ins he was involved in. It always seemed to be women.
In 1938 Harold Douglas Young from Wingham was involved in a case of assault on a young woman. He was some bizarre silent witness sat on her bed. The jury found his partner in crime innocent after all it was the girl’s fault for letting them break into her room.
The same Harold Douglas Young as a POW until 1944. But looking at his NAA record it also shows he was imprisoned for insubordination.
In 1945 he was a witness to the Stackman suicide murder.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168394923?searchTerm=%22harold%20douglas%20young%22%2C%20wingham
Poppins,
Sorry about that, I assumed’ (shades of Felix Unger) that you took one off Alf’s file and another of Jessica’s letters to her sister from ’61, not two of Boxall’s; blame that on me dodgy old peepers. Obviously you have access to Jo’s handwriting and have decided in the negative, so why not put hers up in order that others can give opinions yea or nay…anyway how’s about the Martin mum & son lookalikes, surely you no longer have doubts on that perfect match, or do you?
Fanny Annie Arbucklewood,
Your pre conception with madness hints of some personal experience in that arena. I was once diagnosed as being a mental cripple and certifiable as such. After a prolonged treatment I was eventually declared sane and now have a certificate as proof thereof. I wonder if you are able to produce one too.
…Sorry Steve Touchwood, t’wasn’t you at all. Thanks for the tip off ‘mate’ but why would thedud use such a wacky ndp in the first place. Perhaps he was given the CM bum’s rush for referencing Dome along with his unabated “Colonel” insults.
@ Nick – are you sure there aren’t any more airship flap ciphers? I quite enjoyed the Ciphermysteries’ steampunk turn! All this banter between the Colonel and the Dude (?) referencing Dick(s) and Fanny and George is reminding me of Enid Blyton and the Famous Five! I hear Pete Bowes is actually planning to create his own oeuvre in this genre – Stuart’s Super Sleuths!
The Webb family photo has reached 700+ comments! I think that puts it up there with Max Dupain’s 1937 shot of the Sunbaker, in terms of analysis of an Australian pre war photo!! Another famous body on a beach! A baker, of sorts! Aren’t we lucky that Max included a date! It was taken on Culburra Beach, no need for corroboration with vintage street lamps or absent boom boxes. It doesn’t depict Pete Bowes or any of the other surfers and kite surfers who’ve featured on or contributed to his site. It is of British born builder and body surfer, Harold Salvage, who was born in 1905, the same year as our Charlie! Harry died in 1991.
There are quite a few shots of good looking Harry if anyone wants an age comparison. Just “google” Harold Salvage “images”. Harry dragging a shark out of the surf is pretty out there!
https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/sunbaker/8AEowItvtyD6mA?hl=en-GB&avm=2
@ Lurch
Are you familiar with the Australian artist Clarice Beckett? Sadly, she caught pneumonia and died in 1935. She painted modest often suburban scenes in the 1920s and 30s and lived in Beaumaris, where she cared for her aging parents. (Beaumaris is a south eastern bayside suburb of Melbourne, not far from Mentone, probably a bit more genteel). Anyway, she had a great eye for lamp posts!!
Paintings done in the south east bayside suburbs have our lamp post:
– Evening landscape, c. 1925
– Wet night, Brighton, 1930
Those featuring the inner suburbs & city have different lamp posts:
– Luna Park, 1919
-Evening St Kilda Road, 1930
– Taxi rank,1931
And who has snapped up one of her best works (though they’re all gorgeous in my view)? Russell Crowe has Saturday, n.d.
@ Diane – there is better street art just down the road from the Red Point Tool Co, in Artists Lane, just behind Chapel Street, running between the National Institute of Circus Arts & Tyranny of Distance – an old petrol station repurposed as a cafe/bar, popular with the dashing young crowd.
https://www.weekendnotes.com/artists-lane-windsor/
@js,
Thesquash/tennis choice was really which organisation to write to and ask about their ancient member records or photographs. I thought perhaps the tennis players may have had to be members of the squash club as well.
@sharon C,
I thought Jo’s evidence of Leo starting at the school Feb 1929 with the right school uniform was fairly conclusive. He would have started at his new school aged 13 with his new uniform and was showing it off.
I agree Norma appears mature for a 3 -year old but then Carl appeared immature for a 24-year-old in 1929. If I had seen Carl joking about in a family photo I would imagine he was in university and aged under 21.
In that era most men were married and working by age 21. But both Roy and Carl unusually are single young men aged 24/25 and appear to be living at home. They were more like young people in 2023 – especially Carl who never seemed to want to leave home.
If Roy was married in your version of reality where was his wife – shoplifting or robbing a bank?
Poppins,
Speaking of Alf Boxall’s “loop on a stick” upper case ‘P’s bearing no resemblance to anything from his Jestyn gifted? Hamilton ROK verse 70 endorsment, in your humble opinion; What do you feel about the near identical “loop on a stick” ‘P’ in the ‘Penchance’ word spotted in that same handwritten 70 Quatrain?…or do you put that down to an oversight omission.
@ David Morgan, not sure, having luck with Norman Martin maybe 🤔
Nope I’m not convinced on 1929 sorry, it’s one thing to act immature, pranks in photos and living at home with mum and dad but bone growth, youthful skin that’s a whole different ball game. Even Stuart’s named photo has Freda and Leo but no husband or other kids, Amy and Russell’s 4 kids aren’t there at all so having Roy’s wife missing isn’t going to swing me back to 1929.
Sharon,
I find it a little off puting that you have deined to make no comment to date regarding Poppins fine imgur comparison link with my Lotte and Danny Martin (Stuart’s Hickey T. and Emma K.) of 16th inst. 9.06 am. Easy to miss the way it was posted I’ll grant but, maybe not too late to pick up on the uncanny resemblance of the pair and let it be known.
@Sharon C
It is like an equation that only gives the right answer in February/March 1929. It matches with a holiday, Leo starting school, 2 people who are dead by the end of 1929 still alive. Roy single, Norma a child.
You have to give names to all the known people – you can’t have a single person argument to a group photo.
Also Stuart may have the wedding photos of Leo which potentially gives Leo’s face and his wife, perhaps even Carl and Dorothy. We don’t have all the details.
David Morgan,
When will you willfully ill-informed Stuart Webb FB devotees get it into your heads that the teenager on the grass, whether he be in school uniform or not, looks nothing like any photo depictions of Leo Vivian Keane presented to date. Of that there be no doubt, irrespective of any contrary advice Stuart claims to have had from his conveniently unnamed son (since identified as John Robert bn. 1942).
Honestly, a bloke takes a few days off from the SM case to establish once and for all who wrote the Voynich Ms – a follower of George Gemistos Plethon since you ask – and all sorts of vile rumours and slurs appear concerning yours truly. Sanders claimed that I am “Fanny Arbuckle”, as though The Moderator would allow me to go under a pseudonym without spoiling the fun. No chance! Jo even mentions a “Dick”. JS will be asking if he/it’s circumcised. What next? One hopes that we won’t have another mention here of the Australian comic character Stiffy (Stiffy and Mo). Keep it decent folks!
Don’t know why JS is so sure that the fellow he thinks is Danny Martin is, erm. Danny Martin, when a quick look at his photo on Geni which I provided a link to last December (and which Nick reproduced in his piece above) would show this to be quite a ludicrous proposition. But if he is convinced that said person bears a resemblance to Ma (Lottie) Martin, what about his three younger brothers who I gave details about in my reply to Stuart Webb of 23 April on this thread.
Lawrence Joseph Martin
1896 – 1967
Bernard Patrick Martin
1898 – 1965
John Peter Martin
1900 – 1974
Then PeteB berates me for not immediately answering his call concerning Jo Thomson and the Rubaiyat. I think a quick perusal of some of my earlier posts would show that I have long been open to the possibility that the whole thing was a hoax (or frame up) which got out of hand, which is why I haven’t wasted any time attempting to decipher the code or acronym, and have been somewhat sceptical of the Thomsons’ involvement in the mystery. On the other hand…
Also Sharon has provided a photo of Gerald Keane. although there is a little disagreement here. Sharon herself picks a guy who has the misfortune to be as bald as an egg, whilst Jo, who assures us that she has seen other photos of “Jerry”, thinks it’s the chap in braces. Presumably the photo wasn’t taken by Max Dupain. But what slightly baffles me is that Frank Van Straten’s book is about Her Majesty’s Theatre in Adelaide, not the then His Majesty’s in Melbourne, where indeed ‘The Vagabond King’ was performed in 1941 – see for example:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8166085?searchTerm=%22the%20vagabond%20king%22
I wonder if the old lady in the centre of the photo could be Daniel Martin’s mother, Charlotte Amy (Emma) (Cowley) Martin.
She seems too old to be Eliza’s sister Annie Elizabeth who would have been 51 years old in 1929 (1877-1929).
Charlotte was born in 1859 (Findagrave), (BDM syas she was registered in 1860).
She would be celebrating her 70th birthday in 1929 and would have been given the centre of the photo alongside her granddaughter.
She had been a widow since 1919 when her husband Laurence Joseph died.
I think if you compare Leo older (from his radio days) and focus on his ears and nose you will see a match to the child.
The average of Leo images shows their faces match.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bZ2R5kgkccE5BZvjl7VRYevgm1havc2_/view?usp=sharing
But I doubt some people who believe in Russian spies will ever believe Leo is Leo because it dismisses their whole theory. It’s like being told the Earth isn’t the centre of the Universe.
Charlotte’s photo from Helen Cass’s website on MyHeritage
https://i.imgur.com/YN2MBGZ.png
These are images of Leo’s ears and one is the boy in the photo. You decide which is which and whether they are different people.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bzUYlqJvu3ihkkQJ9pwdb313TvPr_BGc/view?usp=sharing
Sharon and Jo have previously mentioned Sprinvale’s picnics at Mordialloc.
This one was held by the M.U.I.O.O.F. which was Richard August Webb’s masonic lodge if I’m not mistaken, on 31 Jan 1929.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201026217?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FD%2Ftitle%2F901%2F1929%2F01%2F31%2Fpage%2F21575023%2Farticle%2F201026217
@David, we may never name everyone in the photo but when Stuart thought the child was Gwen he estimated her age to be 7, this was after he had found and matched the two images of Charlie and before he compared the image to Norma.
Now we are to believe the child is 3 so it fits in with Charlie and Amy’ death.
If Norma had been noticed and named first, then her parents matched from the Cass photo of all three Martin’s taken in 1927-1928 then I think Doris Amy would have been identified in place of Amy , Charlie as Charlie and then Norman in the front .
Add in the grandparents and Roy’s age between the group photo 1933 ish and his war enlistment and that looks correct too. My thought is the moody gent up the back is Carl and a good match with his death photo and description on the autopsy
report. The image I shared of Gerald was sent to me from a J.C.Williamson historian, his information came from the book as mentioned and the image is from
the Keane collection which I think is Leo’s son? Stuart says my pick for Carl is Carl’s brother Russell and Stuart’s great grandfather but looking at the Webb family there are strong facial features being passed down so having two brothers looking similar when comparing photos is nothing new.
And John, we will have to disagree here but I think Daniel and Doris are sitting over the far right hand side, Daniel being patted on the head and Doris in the hat, her lop sided smile and features match other photos shared by Stuart of them on a beach when they are older and the photo of all 3 Martin’s from the Cass album.
Pat’s link to a photo of Charlotte Martin has put John Sanders’ theory about Danny Martin and his Ma to bed once and for all. You almost have to feel sorry for the bloke. He staked his whole reputation on those IDs and now it’s completely in tatters. That 1936 dating has to go down the pan too, although as I’ve said before I could accept a dating up to 1931 or so (if Amy has been incorrectly identified) judging by Norma’s age. Not that I care very much whether it’s 1928/29 or later.
RIP the credibility of anything poor ol’ JS has to say about Charles Webb and/or Somerton Man!
Pat,
Right you are with Charlotte Martin’s birth year of 1859 and not her namesake of 1866 although both passed in 1944. It being ‘a tale of two Lotties’ and as for her image in the Helen Cass Imgur photo, that certainly looks more like your old lady cebtre pic than my assumed Lotte further towards the end.
@ Pat
I believe you’re right with your Lottie Martin pick, she’s wearing the same glasses & looks very similar! FamilySearch has her birthday as 7 January 1860.
I’m wondering if the bald mystery man is the other “missing uncle”? I don’t know much about him apart from Derek Abbott mentioning in the Mind over Murder podcast that there was a man (Keane?) who was a plumber who played in a brass band, who had a different hairline, who also had no death certificate. Stuart Webb mentions in another podcast (The Criminal), that there was a missing uncle who was bald & that the police conflated the two uncles & dismissed the Webb’s SM contact on this basis.
Steve Stateward,
If it’s possible that Charlotte Martin gave birth to four strapping sons when in her 40s as you infer, then we must assume also that your George Plethon was creator of some fake chronical of life and times in Prestor John’s medieval northern India.
@ Steve – Frank van Straten has written on both of the Majesties.
Her Majesty’s Pleasure (2013) on Adelaide &
The Shows, the Stars, the Stories (2018) on Melbourne.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_van_Straten
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/tyItEl7RzrKx
@David Morgan,
Roy at 35 and ten months when he enlists in June 1940 and him in 1929 with 11years between photos OR between 5 and 7 if taken later.
I have R.Webb getting married ” in the last week” from the newspaper dated Monday 23rd of November in 1933 , do you know the date of his wedding?
What all the anti-Carl Webb researchers seem to have missed is their strongest argument to refute the DNA evidence:
From the Mind over Murder podcast BONUS: Colleen Fitzpatrick on Solving Somerton Man Mystery (Part 1)
around 30:30
Bill Thomas: so you brought in Astrea [Forensics] to take a look at the hair that was left from the mask which had been sitting there for decades…
Colleen Fitzpatrick: We did it the other way around. Derek had some hair from the police. He had a collection of hair he was carefully coveting…protecting so we sent some hair to Astrea Forensics and we got a snip profile January February that we could use for genealogy.
Technically there is no link to the hair given to Derek and the mask or body on the beach. It could be any random sample of hair from any missing person.
Personally, I believe it was still Carl’s but the chain of custody does not exist. In theory, it could be Stuart Webb’s hair.
My problem is why would the police give hair to Prof Abbott 10 years ago and what was its source? I would tend to think he was given the hair by the taxidermist when he was dying. I could think of no reason why the police would contact Abbott 10 years ago to give him police evidence. I think they would deny that account.
But then why would Abbott lie to Colleen about the source of the hair?
It may show that the reluctance of the police to test the DNA has a reason, perhaps a paternal one. They only want mtDNA to be tested and the rest guessed.
Sanders, err, on this occasion I’m gonna go with Stuart’s opinion that that particular lady is Emma Keane. No offence. and more power to you for your opinion and thoughts, good on ya, but there must be evidence elsewhere, surely, in said family albums confirming such. Moving on.
H’mm, Jestyn’s P for Penitence, yes, it is a little, slightly similar, but not exact. Alf’s P is stunningly unique. The Hamilton version is much better, totally, with the Malay translation page. Moving on. What else have we got here …..
Steve, you’re a fabulous researcher 🙂 I’ve seen that photo online before somewhere but I just can’t find it, it’s driving me nuts. Sharon, can I ask where you found it? Totally indebted. Spanner in the works, I think one of the men looks like Charlie White …. lol. PS: Steve, I think I be one of the poor souls who can’t see Geni things …. any chance of another upload, would love to see that picture? No worries if not possible. Moving on.
Sharon and Sanders …. I think Norman has distinctly different hair, his has a definite kink to it, Leo’s has a silky wave …. the boy in the pic has a wave. Moving on.
Pat, fabulous photo of Charlotte, could very well be her, h’mm, very interesting re 1929 70th birthday. Moving on.
PeteB …. hee hee, when you said “commentary” I was thinking audio commentary”, of which I heard none but clattering dishes in the sink. But on a second view I saw the “commentary” you were inferring to, err, which I call a headnote …. and yet it is also defined as a commentary. Forgiveness. There ya go. To wrap it up, I put it to you, thus to wit, that Det Canny, on the said date at the said time showed Jess the pocket sized Rubaiyat, thus being on the first visit, at first instance …. this would be the appropriate time. And so be it. Good on ya.
Jo, haha, that’s funny, 700 plus posts trying to solve the year of this …. hee hee, come on, we can crack this, we’re so close 🙂
Steve Hurwood-
I’d like to read your evidence and argument for the whole content in the Vms being (a) first created in the fifteenth century and (b) the creation of a single author.
David Morgan,
I think you’ll find it was a few of your FB pals John Ruffles, Gordon Cramer & Byron Deveson who were pushing the Russian (Soviet) spy barrow, can’t recall them ever having brought your flappers Keane into the conversation.
This lady appears to be wearing the same dress as Doris …. second from right in front row, wind blowing collar up. Article dated 14 Feb 1929.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171655678?searchTerm=gathering
If it’s not Charlotte’s 70th birthday, maybe it’s something else close to the Martins’ house.
Has anyone noticed how swollen are Amy’s hand and legs? That would confirm she is who Stuart says, given the fact that her illness has been said to be dropsy (oedema).
This is interesting because it further cements the Bottoms to the Bees and therefore Bottoms to the Scotts, Webbs and Bees. It could mean Carl was dibbing his dobs with Ryan Bottoms.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205745408?searchTerm=%22marjorie%20bee%22
In the original photo of Daniel, Doris and Norma posted by Helen Cass, you can see Norma’s socks and shoes, which look like the ones she’s wearing in the family photo.
And Helen has named the photo ‘1929’.
https://i.imgur.com/N9x0Jmt.png
@John Sanders
How many more times can you goof off? If Lottie Martin was born in 1859 or ’60 – not ’66 as you were convinced (70th birthday in 1936 like Dickie Boy ha ha!) – then possibly her fourth son was born when she was 40 plus but the others weren’t. Nice to see you eating humble pie for once. Never mind, if you are so convinced that Emma Keane – your pick for Lottie until Pat’s intervention – is related to the feller top left then it might be Gerald’s kid bro William, born in 1893, although he was supposedly an “invalid” after a childhood accident – to remind you see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65242510?searchTerm=%22william%20thomas%20keane%22
On the other hand it might be a lady, not a feller, in which case it could be his little sis Miss Julia born in 1896.
Have you read John Buchan’s novel ‘Prester John’? It’s a cracker, if a little dated (and set mainly in South Africa). My Plethon is one of many Byzantine scholars, philosophers and occultists who kick started the Italian Renaissance but…
@Diane
It was my little joke! I have no evidence of anything to do with the VMs, but that hasn’t stopped countless others claiming all sorts of nonsense.
@Poppins
No, I’ve come to the sad conclusion that I’m just a self-important old windbag and my “research” has turned up nada. That Geni photo is the one Nick reproduces in his piece at the top of his thread. I (as Bob Nowak) commented on 26 December last year – on the ‘“MY NAME IS CHARLES”… CHARLES RICHARD WEBB?’ thread – that I agreed with your ID of Norma (Pat got there first!) and the next day in reply to JS I wrote:
“If you zoom in on the photo of the Martins with little Norma you can see it’s the same kid. If I was Cramer I would say conclusive, absolute, total foolproof proof.
The photo is from:
https://www.geni.com/people/Daniel-Martin/6000000077197850229
…Note the Geni photo comes from the Cass family MyHeritage site.
Did you know that Mama Cass did NOT die from choking on a ham sandwich? She did die in one of Harry Nilsson’s bedrooms in his flat in London. Four years later Keith Moon died in the same room. They were both aged 32.”
Fun facts are always worth repeating!
@Jo
You are right about Van Straten but you wouldn’t know it from Wikipedia. According to Theatre Heritage Australia “The [Melbourne] book is an absolute steal at $65.00” – at that price I think I would have to steal a copy!
When I looked on Google Books at a sample of his book about the theatre in Adelaide I was amused to see the late Barry Humphries (who wrote the foreword) say about Adelaide in the ’50s that he thought it very sleepy compared to the “pulsating metropolis” of Melbourne, but a friend assured him “Don’t be fooled Barry, it seethes underneath.”
One of the shows the Melbourne theatre put on (April 2004) was a stage version of ‘Bananas in Pyjamas’. Perhaps the theme song from the TV show bore some relation to the Pyjama Girl case song that David Morgan keeps banging on about:
“Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs,
Bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs,
Bananas in pyjamas are chasing teddy bears,
‘cos on Tuesdays they all try to catch them unawares!”
https://youtu.be/5ysogK6v21I
David Morgan, thanks … Poppins, nice try but no thanks
Steve, whoopsie, I was getting the cast of characters confused, was thinking it was the mystery man in the waistcoat … no worries, I’ve seen that picture of Daniel Martin, yep, cheers.
@SHurwood,
Presumably, Leo Keane’s lynching song for Tony Agostini must be hard to rhyme: bikini zucchini, martini, linguine. Leo must have had the idea that Tony killed two women in pyjamas. I guess he only wrote the sports news not the crime news.
Perhaps…Tony went bananas in his pyjamas throwing Linda down the stairs
Just received an email from the J.C.Williamson historian, Gerald’s grandson has confirmed that the bald man is Gerald Keane.
Pat, Norma’s shoes are like runners on today’s kids, I’m a 60’s kid and it was all we wore, white, gloss black and if mum and dad could afford it a red pair for parties, some had the strap only around the ankle, some a t bar, up the centre of the foot and around the ankle. The photo of Norma on dads hip they look gloss black but I think the picnic ones were coloured.
[Removed ham-fisted pop at the moderator]
One strange thing I noticed looking at Charlotte Martin’s record on Ancestry is that it is stated that she died on 24 April 1944 in Beechworth, Victoria. This is not consistent with the death notice I quoted above from the Age (see my comment of April 28):
“MARTIN. —On April 23, at her home, 4
Foulkes street, Alphington, Charlotte Amy,
widow of the late Laurence Joseph Martin,
and loving mother of Margaret P., Daniel
W., Laurence J., Bernard P., and John P.,
aged 84 years. —Requiescat in pace. (In-
terred privately, Eastern Cemetery, Geelong.)”
Now, to someone with my morbid and ghoulish tastes Beechworth is most strongly associated with the ghost tours held at the notorious Beechworth “Lunatic” Asylum so beloved of paranormally inclined YouTubers, eg:
https://youtu.be/H3RicOq_hrA
Maybe we could get the lady from the following video to do an EVP session on Somerton beach and get the truth from the “horse’s mouth” so to speak!
https://youtu.be/XDY44oc4OS8
I have written about Adelaide’s Z Ward at some length in a post a while back.
Sadly Gerald Keane’s father William (1866-1911) did end up in an asylum for a while. According to his Wikitree entry (Research notes): “Found documents at the Ballarat Lunatic Asylum, which state his mother as Margaret Keane and wife Emma Ann Keane. He was hospitalised for an alcohol induced “attack’ (first incident) at age 39, and “native place’ listed as Ballarat.”
A ref below in an article to William Keane as a “fishmonger” – as was wife Emma in later years:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206498727?searchTerm=%22william%20keane%22%20ballarat
I’m sure David Morgan will volunteer to correct all the typos.
It seems it was all an error though. From The Ballarat Star (Vic) Wed 2 May 1894:
“Hiram Crispe, reporter for the defendant journal, stated that he had obtained the particulars for the paragraph complained of from the office of the superintendent of police, and he had heard afterwards that the name of Keane was included through a mistake.”
So even back then the coppers framed people willy-nilly.
Unfortunately though “the jury, after half an hour’s deliberation, returned a verdict for the defendants, adding, however, that the paper should have apologised as soon as the mistake was discovered.”
Pat could well be right about “Amy’s” legs which I had noticed but felt it ungentlemanly to mention. But I’m not sure where the info about her having dropsy (oedema) comes from. A while back a certain Sanders claimed she had leukaemia.
No medical expert meself but I did have a quick look around and wondered whether she had lymphoedema.
“Lymphoedema is a long-term (chronic) condition that causes swelling in the body’s tissues. It can affect any part of the body, but usually develops in the arms or legs…There are 2 main types of lymphoedema: * primary lymphoedema – caused by faulty genes that affect the development of the lymphatic system; it can develop at any age, but usually starts during infancy, adolescence, or early adulthood * secondary lymphoedema – caused by damage to the lymphatic system or problems with the movement and drainage of fluid in the lymphatic system…Primary lymphoedema is rare and secondary lymphoedema is much more common. Secondary lymphoedema often affects people with cancers that involve the lymph system…”
(From the UK NHS website)
Of course it would establish the certainty that the photo was taken 1929 or earlier if it was proven to be Amy, although I do think Norma looks older than three (but certainly not as old as seven) which is a bit weird.
PS Still think “Russell” might be wearing a wighat!
PPS Bugger Roy’s wrist watch/glove! Who cares?
@Jo, I can’t say I’ve heard of Clarice Beckett, but I admire her work. If I could paint, I’d paint lights and their reflections too…although I would paint green enamelled ones like you find around the perimeter of a drive-in theatre lighting up the exit signs, or the mushroom lamps leading up to the box office (I actually built one out of a wok and enamelled it green at my old house…it’s still there, but that’s a different story). I do like a bit of nostalgia. I can’t see myself painting a Metro Curve Series street light anytime soon.
@Poppins, I do like the Mordialloc picnic idea. Looks like they had a typical beachside carnival that seemed to run from Christmas Eve to Australia Day each year. But much like other Melbourne beachside suburbs, Mordialloc features our street lights…see 3rd image from bottom of the page:-
https://localhistory.kingston.vic.gov.au/articles/512
@Steve,
April 23, not April 28… Maybe she died on April 23 and was interred the next day?
Charlotte Emma or Charlotte Amy?
@Sharon
I said the shoes look like, not that they are the same. The resemblance of the socks are striking though.
I have seen photos of Gerald Keane in the 1940s at a wedding and in Tasmania, travelling with JC Williamson. He was tall and craggy looking with bushy eyebrows and springy hair. A good looking, tall bloke with very long shins. In fact, I think he is the bloke whose head Charlie’s hand is hovering over. I’m wondering whether he was reconsidered and wasn’t matched with the older Gerald as its an earlier photo and the family photo Gerald has his hair slicked back (hence Charlie’s gag)… I’m sorry I’m not able to access/share the photos of Gerald and I don’t want to bother Stuart Webb. (We caught up a few weeks ago, he showed me some photos on his laptop and I took him to some of Charlie’s haunts – Bromby Street, Hickey’s place, Red Point, St Matt’s, the Gavey’s place. I enjoyed our meeting, Stuart surfs with blokes who went to school with my brother and sister).
@ Steve – if Gerald is in the photo that leaves Max Dupain available to act as the photographer – hence the professional composition and the chairs, perhaps even a three inch block of wood for Roy to stand, just to frustrate Pete Bowes until eternity. I think good looking Harry the sunbather was either still building houses in Blighty or flirting with some sheilas on the beach, before hauling another shark in…https://www.flickr.com/photos/statelibraryofnsw/12825696494/in/photostream/ (Apologies for the poor conservation values in this photo, it was the 1930s, reprehensible stuff everywhere!).
The photographer definitely wasn’t Helmut Newton as he was still back in Vienna downing his schnitzel!
On a more serious note, I agree with everything Steve and Pat have written about poor Amy. Her grave is very near my dad’s, which I’ll be visiting this week for his anniversary/yahrzeit. I noticed Amy’s grave some years ago, before knowing anything about the Somerton Man as the grave marker was attached in the mid 2000s, when one of her daughters died.
@Steve,
Interestingly, Gerald Thomas Keane’s paternal grandma Margaret McSweeney had the same name as Daniel Martin’s maternal grandma. All Irish.
Do Australians have special celebrations for St. Pat’s Day?
I wondered if the man next to Leslie Scott could be one of Daniel Martin`s brothers, but all I could find on Trove was a reference to his elder brother Laurence Martin’s marriage in 1938.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11182221
Laurence and his brother Bernard Patrick were popular in St. Mary’s Boys School in Geelong in 1911.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/150780604
The tags on Trove show that Laurence was born in 1896 and Bernard in 1898.
But if Daniel was born in 1894, why the marriage note says Laurence was the ‘elder son`?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11182221
Daniel enlisted at the C.Y.M. S. (Geelong Branch) in 1916.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130689779
@S Hurwood,
Yes, I have fixed it for you. What did you achieve in the 2 mins you didn’t fix it yourself – erasing an insult against our supreme leader Nick?
The wig on Russell is probably true and we have Carl imitating a wig – so perhaps we know where it came from Mr Scott, perhaps?
The watch on Roy may be a pareidolia – a bit like the way GPT4 can make a picture from nothing. I see no watch. If only someone could zoom in on it and show us the 1930s chunky watch. But then better that we imagine it.
@Lurch,
Is this lamp post similar to the one in the family photo? I have to admit I can’t see the details you have mentioned (vine leaf bracket).
https://i.imgur.com/ciCpHrS.png
David Morgan
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that the Pyjama Murders song might relate to the Sherlock Holmes movie “The Spider Woman” (1943). However you got the premise of the film slightly wrong.
As the Wikipedia summary puts it:
“Consulting detective Sherlock Holmes fakes his own death in Scotland in order to investigate a number of bizarre apparent suicides that he is convinced are part of an elaborate plot by “a female Moriarty”. Returning to his assistant Dr. Watson in secret, Holmes notes that all the victims were wealthy gamblers, so disguised as “Rajni Singh”, a distinguished Indian officer, he stalks London’s gaming clubs.
It is not long before he encounters the archvillain, Adrea Spedding. Holmes discovers that she seeks out men short of money, persuades them to pawn their life insurance policies with her accomplices, then kills them. Holmes sets himself up as her next victim, discovering that she uses the deadly spider, Lycosa Carnivora, whose venom causes such excruciating pain that the victims kill themselves.”
Man, you might have hit on a connection to the SM case! Holmes refers to the “suicides” as the “pyjama murders” and surmises that some exotic poison has been the cause.
See: https://youtu.be/HZM2lDMna3k?t=2704
Perhaps Jo Thomson or Doff or some other “femme fatale” dosed Charlie with spider venom and he killed himself through sheer despair!
In another case of Jungian “synchronicity” a colleague of mine – another “femme fatale” – posted a (prescient?) comment mentioning me back last August on the ‘DOROTHY JEAN ROBERTSON / DOROTHY JEAN WEBB…?’ thread:
“Ann Onymous
on August 18, 2022 at 9:55 am said:
Nick
Steve H has travelled to London today in search of a decent pair of spider silk pyjamas and suitably matching paisley patterned robe to go with the turban and slippers he purchased a few years ago on a business trip to the city of Udaipur but has asked me to pass on some information he has obtained to you.”
She then provided the details I had obtained from Derek Abbott about Doff’s links to Bute. She added (correctly): ” As Mr H’s private psychiatric nurse I would like to add that in reality he is a deeply sensitive and troubled soul despite his stiff upper lip attitude and haughty and sometimes garrulous nature.”
However I should add that Ann is commonly known as the “Vampyre of Chipping Sodbury” to us simple West Country folk! Be very vigilant if you find yourself down in these ‘yer parts!
@Pat
It was my comment that was dated 28 April (this year!) – Ancestry says 24 April for Charlotte’s death – and I have noticed the Amy/Emma discrepancy before. According to BDM Victoria the birth details are:
“EVENT births
Registration number 4273 / 1860
Family name: COWLEY
Given name(s) Charlotte Emma”
But the obit says Amy as does the Wikitree entry for Daniel Martin: “Daniel was born in Geelong in 1894, son of Laurence Joseph Martin and Charlotte Amy (née Cowley) Martin. Father’s name is spelled “Laurence Jesse” on the birth register.”
But also see Wikitree entry for Charlotte Emma (Cowley) Martin :
Born 7 Jan 1860 in Amherst, Central Goldfields Shire, Victoria
Died 13 Jun 1934 [?] at age 74 in Alphington, Darebin City, Victoria (MORE CONFUSION!)
Find A Grave:
“Charlotte Amy Martin
Maiden Name: Cowley
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 1859 [???]
Birth Place: Amherst, Central Goldfields Shire, Victoria, Australia
Death Date: 24 Apr 1944
Death Place: Alphington, Darebin City, Victoria, Australia”
Unfortunately they are different Margaret McSweeneys:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/McSweeney-473
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/McSweeney-346
Click on descendants for more info.
@Jo
I did say on May 1, 2023 at 9:43 am on this thread: “I’m still not convinced that the bloke with Charlie’s hand poised above his bonce isn’t Gerald Keane” after Stuart’s intervention to state the contrary. But today Sharon posted re her recent photo: “Just received an email from the J.C.Williamson historian, Gerald’s grandson has confirmed that the b**d man is Gerald Keane.” (my asterisks – I don’t want The Moderator censoring another of my posts)
You however say that Gerald had springy h**r. The b**d bloke in Sharon’s photo looks like a spirit or phantom to me, staring into the face of eternity, almost ethereally blending into the scenery. By the way I did wonder whether the photo was an uncredited Alfred Stieglitz or even Man Ray.
Poor old Sanders seems to have gone off with his tail between his legs after a series of foolish gaffes. Fingers crossed!
:@steve H,
It has 3 directions – childish song about stairs, bananas and pyjamas, Agostini taunt about hanging him for killing 2 women (in his own theory) or the Spider Woman killing men. Perhaps Leo had them all mixed up in his head in 1944. I assume Leo’s CD was some post-war collection of songs he recorded on vinyl and in effect, he had become an archivist wanting to capture the moment and the memory of his brother.
But being interested in a news story and keeping cuttings thinking you are Sherlock Holmes is one thing but writing a song about it is another. He would know that he would have to get the song out in 1944 during the trial if he wanted to make money from it.
@ Poppins – great spotting of the spotted dress!
@ Pat – Laurence Martin’s wedding was quite posh! St Patrick’s Cathedral and the Menzies!
St Patrick’s day is a big deal in Australia, probably even more so in the past, when Irish Catholics were a significant community in a far less multicultural country (Victoria was very divided along Protestant/Catholic lines in politics & education). 17 March was a Sunday in 1929!
The well dressed man could be Laurence if he’s not Gerald or Bernard! Or Mr Dibb!
@ Steve – I’ll be very wary in Sodding Chippbury. Maybe you should be too, I’ve heard our moderator may be on friendly terms with the Vampyre! Those cheap shots could turn out to be costly!!
There was a man from Bristol
His mother called him Steve
He came to ciphermystries
But we just wish he’d leave
Of vital information
This pest has next to none
But read his crappy comments!
He’s churned out near a tonne
Pat – the history of Australia, before the end of WWII, had its newer population almost entirely from England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales, save a small Chinese population descended from people who had come for the 1880s gold rush. The Irish were almost all Catholic and schools were divided into Catholic, Anglican and the publicly-funded schools for everyone else and anyone unable to afford the denominational schools, though Catholic families would go hungry before letting their children go there. After WWII, masses of refugees arrived, chiefly from central Europe (Poland and thereabouts) or from what was called ‘white’ Russian families. Many of those were Catholic too. St. Pat’s day was, of course, celebrated with enthusiasm by the first generation Irish and all Catholics before WWII and, I understand, especially in the state of Victoria before the death of its noted archbishop, Daniel Mannix. Defining what one means by the ‘Australian people’ – other than just people who happen to live in that continent – is a nice problem. In some cities, today, almost 50% of the population is from Asia (proper), and in some there is a large proportion of first-to-third generation people from India, the near east and elsewhere. The so-called ‘whites’ – of European/Russian descent are… I think… now a minority. Whether there are still St.Pat’s Day parades I don’t know.
Pat – sorry, forgot to mention that Greeks and Italians who were the largest group of post WWII refugee-immigrants from Europe. The English, Scots and Irish kept coming, too. 🙂
@ Steve
The photo was certainly not taken by Man Ray! I’d be very careful as another beloved Steve was taken out by a Manta Ray! That’s just one small Trove insertion away from a very untimely death! Steve Irwin did manage to complete his collaboration with the Wiggles before his demise (Wiggle Safari) but sadly didn’t do any numbers with B1 and B2, who incidentally, were first mentioned on Ciphermysteries by the Dude & I some time ago! Perhaps you should check out Carole Jerrams as Roy seems to be wearing a sharpie style Connie cardi! There was also a bit of debate on Toms by Two about Derek not acknowledging Carl’s cardie or knitted vest, perhaps Derek just never mastered the sharpie shuffle!
PS I hope Sanders’ device has simply fallen into the river or down the squat dunny & that he’s ok. He surely can’t have run out of insults & speculations…!
@ Diane – I wasn’t born here but was amazed at the number of people in Melbourne’s inner south who share the same Irish Catholic/Eastern European Jewish cross- over ancestry as me! I think some of the Gavey & Martin descendants have a similar mix…My extended Australian family has Māori, Indian, South East Asian, North American, German, convict & British settler ancestry – all different colours, shapes, sizes & races & all ostensibly Australian! So much has changed in the post war period, with accelerated demographic change in the twenty first century! It’s certainly very different to 1948!
@ D.N.O’Donovan and Jo,
Thanks for the info on Australia’s history, fascinating!
@Steve,
I know the ‘Margarets’ are different persons, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence but thanks for the links.
@all,
Trying to track down info on the people in the photo around Feb-June 1929 (assuming Leo’s uniform and Amy’s death as limits), I have found 2 dates for the Scott couple:
4 April 1929
Geelong and Bendigo “En Fete” at Easter FESTIVITIES AT BENDIGO
They were staying at the Family City Hotel.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146450679?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FT%2Ftitle%2F713%2F1929%2F04%2F04%2Fpage%2F17413715%2Farticle%2F146450679#
25 April 1929
Mrs L.W. Scott, of Moonee Ponds, has been visiting her husband’s mother at Camperdown.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/17413979
L.W. Scott’s mother, Mary Elizabeth (West) Scott was also Irish… it would be interesting to find her photo.
That’s just fabulous Sharon, whoa, the photo has been confirmed as being Gerald, brilliant, you’ve found the first public image of him, well done. Your image has expired though but I saved a copy – have added charlie white comparison from 1948 pic for one of the other guys there.
https://imgur.com/daQeCd2
That’s very interesting Pat, re the swollen arm and dropsy, it does look to be that way. She looks so lovely, Amy. I was obsessed at one point with looking for her other arm, but it might be an optical illusion that it’s not showing.
Thanks Lurch
D N O’Historyrewriter – the vast majority of Australians are still of Anglo-Irish stock.
The present 600,000 pouring in from elsewhere annually are not Australian in any meaningful sense of the word and once the economy collapses will quite likely go away again.
Much like the thousand military aged Middle Eastern men pouring into England every night with the assistance of the Royal Navy and the RNLI.
Your modern interpretation of who is Australian is not required for this case, which occurred very shortly after the imposition of the canard of ‘Australian Citizenship’ when all nationals also remained British Subjects.
In fact, being born before April 87, I myself am a British Subject by birth, however meaningless that has become with modern British nationality betrayals.
Jo – I envy you. You’d have liked my mother, I think. She was utterly and genuinely blind to categories that are imposed on people. Once when she was expressing her dislike of someone from a different cultural background and I – being still school-age and frightfully PC expressed shock that she should say such a thing about a person of different cultural background. She replied, ‘ Dear – black, white or brindled, I still couldn’t stand him.’
@Jo
I preferred avoiding physical contact with crocs to wrestling with them Steve Irwin style. As for fish, when I went fishing in the Arafura Sea off the coast of Arnhem Land in 1983 with the later-to-be buffalo hunter Simon Kyle-Little (son of Syd) – who had also taken me in a tiny motorboat down a river full of crocs – all I caught was a tiny stonefish. Luckily I knew what it was so didn’t grab onto it or else I would have met the same fate as the other Steve. No stingray maybe but those bleeders pack a lethal punch. According to Wikipedia they “are the most venomous fish known.” Ugly bastards too.
The Wiggles are new to me. I’ll have to check ’em out! Do you know the work of Creepy John Thomas, Australia’s version of Lemmy, “well known in Melbourne” who did support gigs “for some of the biggest sixties bands including the Rolling Stones…”? Check out ‘Brother Bat Bone’. I don’t even want to think about Derek doing the sharpie dance. (There’s an interesting Sharpie page on Facebook with loads of old photos of Melbourne and Melburnians – were there any sharpies in 1929?)
I’ll be setting the Chipping Sodbury Vampyress on Mr Pelling if he dares to come anywhere near these parts. Her fangs are even more toxic than a stonefish spine.
If Sanders’ device had fallen down the dunny it wouldn’t be a surprise as he has his head down there most of the time. Unfortunately he did post a comment on another thread so you don’t need to worry about the old bugger’s mortal status.
Jungian synchronicity struck again with your comment on the most recent Airship thread. if you are interested in the Titanic Rubaiyat, in an incredibly long and prolix post – which nobody read! – concerning the poet Algernon Charles Swinburne (think Swinburne Technical College) of August 12, 2022 at 2:20 pm on the ‘CARL WEBB, “ELECTRICAL FITTER” AND “INSTRUMENT MAKER”…’ thread I wrote:
“As Senan Molony writes in a fascinating article about the Rubaiyat’s links with the Titanic –
see http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/rubaiyat.html – “[The] first edition of the Rubáiyát, unadorned by illustration, was published as a favour by Bernard Quaritch, of Castle Street, Leicester Square, London, in 1859. It had a cover price of one shilling. Only 200 were printed. And it did not sell. It was being remaindered for a penny a copy in the bargain rack of Quaritch when it came to the attention of the poets Swinburne and Rossetti. They so championed the ruby they had found among the dross that it entered into ever more successful printings and editions.”
Weirdly there does seem to be some bizarre link between the book and mysterious deaths. Molony writes “And not only was the Rubáiyát destroyed at sea in 1912 [in the Titanic disaster], but it is remarkable that so too was its very maker [the tooling of the cover of the Titanic Rubáiyát was carried out by the firm of Sangorski and Sutcliffe], Francis Sangorski. Sangorski went for a swim on July 1, 1912, at Selsey, Sussex. He soon got into difficulties and was quickly drowned. It had taken him two years to produce the Titanic Rubáiyát, but the ocean took him in minutes…Anyone seeking a drowning thread to…[the]…tale can find further evidence in the death of one Dr John Potter in 1923. Potter, aged 75, was a Persian scholar like FitzGerald. Like FitzGerald, he produced a translation of the Rubáiyát. On Monday evening, June 18, 1923, Potter was seen walking in the street in Castletown, Isle of Man, and thereafter vanished. “No trace was found until his body was washed up at Auchencairn, a little village in Kirkcudbright on the Solway Firth” one month later, the Times reported. A wallet on the body identified Potter, “but there was nothing to show how Dr Potter came to be in the water.”
Let’s hope there’s still time for those people on the Titanic sub.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-482458977/view?sectionId=nla.obj-494763281&searchTerm=Charlie+white+kruschen&partId=nla.obj-482490672#page/n17/mode/1up/search/Charlie+white+kruschen
@ Poppins- Here’s Charlie White in 1952.
@Jo
They certainly had sharpies in Melbourne (as well as bodgies and widgies) in the ’50s:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71783522?searchTerm=bodgies%20sharpies
Apparently they spoke a weird “lingo”!
Even earlier in 1951 referring to “Indignant Brisbane “sharpies””:
“‘Sharpies’ — a group of young people interested in jive (bodgies and widgies).”
For those not familiar with bodgies and widgies:
“‘BODGIE’ has come to mean a young man who dresses in the drape shape…ties his tie with a Windsor knot, has his hair cut a certain way, and jives.”
“Widgie’ is the female of bodgie.’ A ‘widgie’ is a girl who wears a peg-top skirt and blouse, flat heeled shoes, has shingled hair — and jives.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/98346882?searchTerm=bodgies%20sharpies
Adelaide readers were warned about those nasty Melbourne types in 1953:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130920974?searchTerm=bodgies%20sharpies
According to the Daily Telegraph in Sydney (‘Bodgie’ cult is dying – thank heavens):
“Australia’s bodgie cult was born in 1948 at Bondi. It began with a group of lads affecting “Cornel Wilde” haircuts, long sideboards and down-to-the-collar curls. The weird rig-outs appeared later. They were based on an American wartime phenomenon, the “zoot-suit,” worn mainly by Mexican, Negro, and Puerto Rican juveniles, and long out of date in the States— though few bodgies were aware of this. The name “bodgie” is also a wartime expression, originally coined for the disguised bottles of water sold to sucker down-and-outs as methylated spirit, when this item was unprocurable…A complete “sharp” outfit, knee-length coat, checked shirt, trousers, special belt and shoes, costs around £28..”
However the article’s author thought that in 1952: “Today curious visitors will
look in vain for the swarms of boy and girl “sharpies” who used to infest this city.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248849260?searchTerm=bodgies%20sharpies
Nowt to do with Somerton Man lass, but as a fellow social scientist I thought you would share my interest in Aussie “subcultures”. I expect Bowes and Sanders were two of the original Bondi bodgies! If nothing else it’ll give my admirer Cynthia a chance to write another scurrilous “poem”.
Poppins has provided this link on the Jerry Keane post:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248184652?searchTerm=stagehands%20cicely
Could the bald man be Gerald Keane? (Jo said he had bushy eyebrows)
https://i.imgur.com/GOgY0be.png
@Jo/David Morgan
I’ve just twigged who B1 and B2 are. They are the bananas in pyjamas. Apparently there is also a character in the show called Morgan the Teddy Bear. The bananas chase the teddy bears who include Amy and Lulu.
I must find something better to do with my life!
By the way I have watched a couple of Wiggles videos. Never again!
Doesn’t look good for the Titanic sub unfortunately.
The version of Carl’s Rubaiyat had capitalisation of certain words such as And, Thyself, Foot. Perhaps the Rubiayat is the clue to the Somerton Man code but only the capitalised (stressed) words.
https://omarkhayyamrubaiyat.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/fig.2.jpg
@Pat
I like those photos of Gerald Keane (?) but you’ll be giving Mr P the willies if you keep using foul language like that (b**d)!
@Jo
I think the bloke at the start of this video might be Sanders:
https://youtu.be/i5s7fuNv7ks
Not rock’n’roll though in 1951, more like the jitterbug.
Sir Les Patterson was a bodgie.
https://youtu.be/mDJ_mM8g6ao
My last word on the subject, honest!
@pat, no. Gerald Keane most likely to be the one with the chin.
@pat, no. Gerald Keane most likely to be the one with the pronounced chin amd glasses looking upwards….
@Pat…I would’ve thought Mrs L.W. Scott might have had a funeral to prepare for on the 25/4/29. The Scotts certainly keep up appearances.
Some more serendipity. Looking at an old colour film of the UK I noticed Cardiff in the 1920s. I was really looking at Queen Street to see whether it was the same as today. I was watching the vehicles but then I noticed the street light.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_stVXezCK55Xvume-RTcw6wkJ6eykEQ-/view?usp=sharing
Was there any childhood relationship between Carl/Charles Webb and Kevin Borthwick? I believe Kevin got married in Melbourne in 1939 and Charles and Kevin ‘may’ have been involved in installing Raycophone systems in cinemas in the late 1920s/30s. That may be Carl’s link to J.C. Williamson.
The company that produced Raycophone receivers did not initially make radios at all as it was originally established for the purpose of manufacturing cinema sound systems. Raycophone Ltd was founded in November 1929 by Raymond
Cottam Allsop, who was by then a well-known identity in Sydney radio circles, and one who was to become even better known in the years ahead. The
name Raycophone, used as both a company name and product tradename, was derived from Allsop’s first name.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-567671194/view?sectionId=nla.obj-577197871&searchTerm=%22charles+webb%22&partId=nla.obj-567700011#page/n6/mode/1up
David Morgan: any relation to Madge Allsop, the late Dame Edna Everage’s ever-silent bridesmaid, whose husband Douglas Allsop died tragically on their honeymoon in Rotorua?
@Nick,
I was considering death by decibel. Perhaps in Ray’s papers there’s a reference to Carl and Kevin.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-246290816/findingaid
In a demonstration of Raycophone stereo Allsop had made a cinema film with two unknown table tennis players. Potentially they could be Kevin Borthwick and Charles Webb the two Raycophone employees who installed the systems in cinemas. But which Charles Webb?
It would be logical that Charles Webb working with electrical fitter Kevin Borthwick was educated in Sydney. The only Charles Webb I have located in the right timeframe was Charles D Webb who qualified in 1924 as a mechanical fitter. But would a mechanical fitter install electrical sound systems? He seems a misfit.
These systems needed a client like JC Williamson to show the films in their cinemas/theatres and a film supplier like Fox. We know electrical fitter Charlie was linked to Gerald Keane who worked ‘behind the scenes’ and Gerald was linked to J.C. Williamson.
If Charlie had been the Raycophone system electrical fitter he would have been the best fit for installing WW2 air-raid/factory alarm sirens for William Sher and it would explain why Charlie didn’t carry out military service if he was travelling around Australia fitting air-raid type sirens in factories.
In our village in Wales they would test a siren that may have been a WW2 relic though people believed it was used for the start of coal mining shifts/disasters.
@DM , sounds plausible , it would explain why he was in Adelaide during the period and most likely confirm that Gerald Keane set him up with this job. Makes me also feel that Gerald Keane was trying to get the SM man back on his feet after a period of being either incarcerated ,in a mental institute or abroad.
His death might be as a result of a relapse after a period of sobriety? The was a party after the show in adelaide probably important people were there …most likey artsy type with knowledge of the rubaiyat…that is why the cover up…?
@EM,
very 50:50 at the moment. But then ‘a’ Kevin Borthwick got married in Melbourne. They may have had territories where they installed Raycophone systems for Talkies in cinemas. The Borthwick name was also linked to football.
There was also a demo of stereo which included 2 unknown table tennis players. It would be interesting to locate the stereo film demo and hope it was the two Raycophone installers.
DavidMorgan, you’ve gone and got me fascinated and interested in Raycophone. There’s some fabulous footage on the NFSA site and a little film lists “E.J. Tait as a director of Raycophone. Borthwick was working with a Mr Webb in 1929, so Carl would have been 24 …. h’mm, it’s certainly possible, will keep looking, might head off to the library in the next few days.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/53450943?searchTerm=mr%20k%20borthwick
Jo, yes Charlie White was flogging the Kruschen Salts for at least two years …. “Get that Famous Kruschen feeling”, haha ….
There’s a Mrs & Mrs Charles Webb attending weddings and funerals for theatrical folk where EJ Tait is in attendance and JC Williamson people. Haven’t figured out who they are yet …. fabulous the list of names you get at these events though.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16788359?searchTerm=tait%20mrs%20charles%20webb
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16788359?searchTerm=e%20j%20tait%20charles%20webb
@Poppins,
I was trying to think like a ‘new’ out-of-the-box Charles Webb who attended Swinburne Technical College and the exciting world around him was radio, cinema and theatre. Likely smart Swinburne students were building ham radio sets in their bedrooms and excited about talking with a student in Oxford and New York. But for Carl his dad would have wanted him to forget the dreams and make and deliver the bread. Bread production automation was also a big thing so again his dad would have said things like “when you can build a machine to make the bread I’ll be able to retire”.
I doubt Carl was going to build a bread machine in his bedroom but he could have developed hobbies.
In the mid 1920s the idea of talkies would have been one dominant theme and for engineers there were exciting possibilities with various companies like Markophone and Raycophone. They seemed to have the film sound encoded on a disk (I assume a record) which they synchronised to the film. He could have got lucky helping Gerald Keane with lighting and sound for stage shows in the afternoon. The cycle of early morning bread production would have given Carl time to do other things as the shop took over and probably Roy on the bike/van for deliveries.
Is John Sanders ok?
@Lurch,
I think he’s sold out to the Tom’s Bite Woo site.
@Lurch, I thought Sanders was moving location towards the end of June, so maybe he’s been busy with that and looking through his maps …. but I have to say, not having any John Sanders posts to read is like a Vegemite sandwich without the Vegemite, hey, there’s something missing ….
@DavidMorgan, thinking out-of-the-box is the best, that’s when ya find fabulous stuff. I’m getting more and more curious about Carl’s early years after Swinburne too ….
I’m sorry my absence has vexed you good Somerton sleuthers.
I’ve had to jet into Western Australia for a quick family thing. No, Dud, I didn’t take the transcontinental. Direct flights are cheaper.
@Poppins,
My theory is he was more successful in the late 1930s and 1940 but then everything went pear-shaped with his father’s death, the war and then Roy’s death. His mother’s death was the event that took him over the edge.
I think you’re right there David, and if he did do well then the school magazines could mention him or brag about his job placement, they seem to enjoy doing that …. need to find more Swinburnians, Open Door mags, etc, to peruse.
Do you think maybe this is Carl?
https://imgur.com/EXWhfDr
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/bb125687-2336-4c28-a34d-952b1a5e22b9/1/pho016i0001.jpg
Good on ya Sanders, you’ve been missed ….. safe travels, cheers
Poppins: thanks for your kind thoughts. Of course I’m not in Western Australia; last time being way back in 1982 when I flew into Perth from Singapore. Also I don’t generally use words such as vexed, sleuthers, or Dud with an upper case ‘d’ for that matter.
@ Johnno – you are becoming a cipher mystery in yourself! You don’t generally use words such as kind and generally! And the ‘d’ has me wondering! Anyway, hope you’re well!
@Poppins, not him.
Nick Pelling you know I am a fan of your but Im getting a bit fed up with your compatriots moaning about the aussies using the rules of cricket to win a test match. All I can gather from the non stop pity party happening here in the UK where Ive come to enjoy the ashes is that England feel that we should let them win and to not do so is not in the “spirit of the game”. Even your Pm has had a dig !!! Very odd behaviour NP but not really on topic.
I reckon the photo was taken in 1929 !!
thedude747: you’re absolutely right, the Aussies won fair and square. And if the British PM had a dig, it’s conclusive proof that the diametric opposite is true, for sure.
The Dude is always correct – 1929 and the Stines had this one!
I’ve only barracked for both England and Australia, ever since Imran left the field, married Jemima and became a PM. I think he was the chancellor of Bradford University somewhere in between all of that…
Albo vs Rishi – now there’s a match! Albo, just like Leo Keane, was a St Joseph’s scholar…
Do you think this thread will reach 1000 comments not out before SAPOL make some kind of announcement? Or do you think there is some crazed soul dragging things out to see where the bloggers might go next?
Things are very quiet over on Derek’s FB page. For fresh ideas & great documentary discoveries I recommend Sharon’s The Real Charles Webb FB page, I don’t agree with all of Sharon’s theories & wonder how far and for how long the extended Webb family should be scrutinised, but she has found quite a few new documents & lots of interesting things about horse racing in 1948… ! I think involvement in horse racing and fixing is possibly the strongest theory currently in play! Team Sharon is currently ahead in the sleuthing and one of her young researchers will probably out pace all of us before too long!
Ah, so Richard August Webb was a master baker – wonder if Russell was then too …. they had their picnic on Wednesday 6 February 1929. The weather was around 28c …. warm day. Need to find where the picnic grounds are they’re referring to ….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3981342?searchTerm=master%20bakers%20picnic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269957167?searchTerm=messrs%20webb%20master%20bakers
https://imgur.com/gqkQxnr
Thanks Em.
Thanks for the tip #Jo. I shall check Sharons FB page out.
@ Poppins
The Master Bakers picnic could be the go!
Its the right time of the year for Leo to be in his new uniform and the vegetation suggests somewhere bay side. We need Lurch on the case for lighting!
If this was an annual event it could make sense for other family members to come and join Richard and Russell – celebrating the new bakery and reminiscing about annual picnics past.
It could even explain the photo itself – perhaps taken by a professional photographer who had a spot set up with a few chairs etc. Some of the younger children could be off playing games. It could explain the men wearing sports clothes. Hey, PB, perhaps there was even a three inch block for Roy to stand on…
(Sanders: please note that is BAKERS and not baiters or baters! …).
Poppins: nice find, very good fit! There must surely be other stuff about the Sorrento picnic grounds out there?
@ Poppins – Sorrento also makes sense geographically in terms of who was there. The Webbs would have travelled by road & or rail (ie those in the Western suburbs & Springvale, now a south east suburb of Melbourne). Those from Western Victoria – Geelong & Camperdown – the Martins & Emma Keane, probably Russell & Amy if still at Packington Street, Geelong, would be more likely to travel by ferry from Queenscliff.
This idea is best explained by looking at the geography of Port Phillip Bay. By road Western Victoria is a long way from Springvale. By sea it is a much shorter journey to meet at Sorrento. I know there has been a regular ferry service since at least 1953. Trove has lots of adds for irregular trips from the 1880s…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Port+Phillip/@-38.1223711,144.7750157,9z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x6ad5d5bd6735d413:0x2a0456754b3a0ea0!8m2!3d-38.173206!4d144.8731219!16zL20vMDFucDls?hl=en-au
In looking at Port Phillip Bay you should also spare a thought for William Buckley who escaped from an early penal camp at Sorrento. He spent months walking the whole length of the bay, only to see the camp again, across the heads! The camp was abandoned due to a lack of food & drinking water. William Buckley spent the next 32 years living amongst the Indigenous people of the Bellarine Peninsula. Here’s his biography, written by Marjorie Tipping, who coincidentally lived not far away from Charlie & Doff back in the 1940s! (Queens Road). I knew her briefly before she died in 2009.
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/buckley-william-1844
You can also travel across Port Phillip Bay from the Mornington Peninsula to the Bellarine Peninsula by paddle board, even when you haven’t planned to…
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101790890
It’s all about reasonable doubt, Jo, and I think I’ve established that, now all I need to do is engage Stuart Littlemore to convince the Pelling doubters.
In Trove if you type in “Master Bakers Picnic” and click on “photo” there’s quite a few interesting group photos. Here’s a 1907 Sandown Park one. Wonder if there’s baker records held somewhere … did Richard become a Master Baker when he moved to Shepparton and opened his shop …..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175791203?searchTerm=master%20bakers%20picnic
Thanks Nick 🙂
@ Poppins – The Sandown pictures are great! Sandown is a stone’s throw away from the Springvale bakery! I wonder whether this is where Richard gathered his knowledge of Springvale? He bought at a time that the suburb was expanding – largely due to the establishment of Kelly and Lewis’ factory and a large subdivision of their surplus land into housing plots (which helped to finance the factory build)… I’ll dig out and post my photos of the sales brochure via imgur later this week….
It could be that Carl was a wartime Spiv who got things like petrol ration coupons for rich people who after the war might have deliberately avoided him.
The story of a Charles Webb break-in to a warehouse found not guilty could be it was his own warehouse of war-time treasure.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63262449?searchTerm=%22spiv%22
I’m not sure whether spiv was used in the UK and drone in Australia.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131406083?searchTerm=%22drone%22
No photo yet, but the picnic grounds at Sorrento could be Sorrento Park – this article describes its location at least in 1932.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/182138846?searchTerm=sorrento%20park
Why do Charlie and Roy appear to be the same height in that photograph when we know there is a 3” difference between them?
@peteb lol
I’m sorry I couldn’t resist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMiKyfd6hA0
@Peteb
Charlie leaned over a bit to hug his parents. His shoulders are on a higher postion than Roy’s, and Roy being closer to the photographer gives the impression to be taller.
Pat, you write that Roy appears to be taller than Charlie because he is closer to the camera, do you mean if he were to straighten up and step back a pace he would appear to be three inches shorter than his brother, like his grandmother is in relation her husband?
Pete,
I would have more empathy if you had argued that he had blond hair not ginger hair. He must have had ginger hair because Abbott had the bag of ginger hair ‘from the police?’ as Fitzgerald said. Abbott had the bag for over 10 years so he must have looked at the colour as he kept on about ginger SM being Irish.
So why would a ginger-haired person have ginger hair aged 14 but blond hair aged 24 then ginger hair again aged 43. The only answer would surely be he dyed his hair for perhaps 20 years. I believe he had blond hair even in 1941 when he got married and it would explain how when his family saw him in a newspaper with dark hair they didn’t recognise him. He was always blond Carl in their memory.
“In the 1940s, even as the beauty trend became more popular, salons offered back entrances for clients who didn’t want to make their dye habits known.” CNN.
The height thing is nonsense and if your whole theory relies on a perceived height difference in a photograph you have a weak theory. The weight of ‘scientific evidence’ says Carl was Charlie was the SM. Get over being proved wrong and move on.
@Peteb
Roy being closer to the photographer gives the impression he was taller than he actually was, not taller than Charlie. Charlie is leaning towards this parents, he is not straighten up. That gives the impression that he was about the same height as Roy, but he was clearly taller if you look at his shoulders.
@David Morgan
Ginger hair can become blond after some hours under the sun. Moreover, sex hormones change hair colour. My hair was blond when I was a kid and now it’s chestnut. I have never dyed it.
David. …. Do we know who tagged the photographs? And Xanthe Mallett doesn’t share your view about ‘the weight of scientific evidence’ –
@Peteb for the definitive answer you’ll need to do a re-enactment, hey – “Seeking 5/8 and 5/11 applicants for scientific experiment to solve mystery. Applicants will receive a biscuit and their choice of tea or coffee”, something enticing like that, on a noticeboard. I think that’s the way to go. And someone with big hands too. Charlie’s hands are visible in both photos; are they the same big hands?
@Poppins,
there is a guy that works out the height of people from photographs but he needs something like a can of coke in the picture for a known height object. The one object i can see that might be measurable is the gap between the stripes on his dad’s tie. Find the tie and measure the stripe gap or alternatively the lens size on his dad’s glasses. Then measure Carl’s head length to determine his height =12.9+8.45 x head length. But looking at the image I’d say Carl and Roy have very similar head length. Typically 18 to 21.3cm. It might not help.
using 18, then height = 12.9+8.45 x 18 = 165 (5’5″)
using 21.3, then height = 12.9 +8.45 x 21.3 = 193 (6′ 4″)
To be 5 11″ he needs to have a head length of (180-12.9)/8.45 = 19.77cm
Obviously, there is a margin of error in the formula which may be 3″
The answer for PeteB is that Roy is Carl. Carl died in the jungle. SM was Roy. Then Roy can be the father of Brenda for real.
But then facial ID says No. Carl is Charlie is SM.
Dave, give it a miss son, you’re embarrassing yourself unnecessarily..
It might be that while measuring the sm’s body they made an error or recorded the detail incorrectly. It has been known to happen, especially with those Adelaide lot
Easy to say, hard to prove.
@EM,
I looked at scientific papers on the errors made in measuring bodies. It was not that significant. Obviously, Adelaide could be an exception.
I believe the bodybuilding guy (the Australian Charles Atlas) was saying people could increase their height by inches following his training regime – which was hanging upside down.
When I was a kid my religious parents made us say our prayers at bedtime. I always use to tack on the end I want to be 6 feet tall. But I never quite made it. So perhaps Carl did the same praying at bedtime at 7pm. But strangely my brother (who was taller than me as a child) who resembled Carl’s brother Roy was 3″ shorter than me as an adult. Perhaps Carl had a growing spurt from all that 7pm praying.
I could also see Roy as the real sporting hero – perhaps a table tennis champion or driving getaway cars at high speed for Gavey.
I did see a bid by an R. Webb to be a sports coach in Essendon (I think) was unsuccessful. Perhaps Roy was the real football hero and Carl was the school swot who spent all his time on the football sidelines with injuries.
@PeteB,
If only you believed in science all your problems would go away.
I asked the guy that tracked down the GRU agents in the Skripal case and he came up with:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AdPGP7fsoYODhrf53WvNT_9gX6zK2K6J/view?usp=sharing
He said he has never made an error with his own software.
…follow the science, not the money.
@PeteB,
I gave you the formula so you could ask Abbott for the size of the death mask of SM and then use the formula to work out the height of the body. Remember Abbott scanned the death mask. He has the dimensions.
I am trying to help you resolve your problem.
@David thanks for that, very clever indeed, I’m all for science too …. h’mm, there are a lot of genius’s gettin’ around here ….. sadly I’m not one of them, lol.
Good on ya
Does Charlie have his eyes closed in the 4 shot, that would make a big difference
Dave … one of my problems is that nobody over here is confident enough to answer one question: how far behind Eliza would Richard have to stand to appear to be the same height? You know, in that photo of them, Roy and Charlie.
@peteb – you could do it with maths.
This is too simple.. but you get the idea.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OijKQuxpAcF2sXrPd90ZB6BlmH1iixaC/view?usp=sharing
Bing Chat wanted more info
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R-xwGYqVhQXoxr11qDO4T-7Yh0Ztd6mS/view?usp=sharing
Dave, I’d rather do it with words, yours, but as I’ve said before you don’t appear to have the confidence to commit yourself to answer a question a child could understand.
Things that are far away look smaller…
Look at this image and determine the height of the Queen.
https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/styles/1400×500/public/images/feature/pa-5883792.jpg?h=6b13e0cf&itok=fxOwprcS
Dodger Dave. You’ll do everything but answer the question, won’t you?
@PeteB,
I don’t know the circumstances of the picture. The camera and its focal length, the height of the photographer, the ground they are stood on.
It would be foolish to infer the height of anyone in the picture. Like I said measure the guys head (from Abbott’s scan) and use a formula. At least you would have some evidence.
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/tom_cruise_scully_box.png
Holsman is saying that the Strontium levels in Carl’s hair prove he wasn’t an Australian. But it ignores the fact that nuclear tests were carried out in April 1948. Perhaps Carl’s record was secret because he was involved in X-Ray – installing Sher warning sirens.
Perhaps personnel records exist. Though if it was known he was involved his record may have been destroyed.
I could imagine he simply installed the warning sirens at the site and then removed them but perhaps they had collected radiation in the siren blade(s). He may have thought he could just blow the radiation dust away and use it again.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Rb5jMGiaYUAqy6WJTjx4bO5EU_zHANaJ/view?usp=sharing
Dave, the picture suggests the grandmother is shorter than the grandfather … I would estimate he would have to move back at least a metre to appear to be the same height as she is, remembering in your own words ‘things that are far away look smaller.’
That is the concept … pure and simple. And it’s not surprising that nobody else wants to chip in with an estimate … it might upset their applecarts.
Re trying to place when/ where the photo was taken, the lady in the middle looks like she has a full apron on over her dress, when I use AI to colour the photo it colours the apron area different than her dress sleeves and hem. Most women wouldn’t leave the house with a ” pinny” on as my nan used to call them so I’m wondering if it’s either a private home where she’s been cooking/ serving food or again a school picnic, sport event idea where mums, grandmas are in the ” tuckshop” preparing food. May be why everyone is centred around her for the photo too.
@ Sharon
The old lady in the middle of the photo is likely Charlotte Martin, Daniel William Martin’s mother.
I thought it could be her birthday but she was born in 1860.
If she had been born in 1859 (BDM Victoria says so) that would have beeen her 70th birthday, although there’s nothing wrong in celebrating her 69th birthday!
https://i.imgur.com/YN2MBGZ.png
1948 Operation Sandstone personnel documents suggest a majority of US military staff but a lot of contractors as well.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA139151.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h931W1446uk
Hey, if anyone wants anything looked up at the good ‘ol fabulous and completely wonderful Prov Vic, speak now or forever hold your peace, and so be it, thy will be done, thus to wit, etc, etc … I’m heading there shortly re something, and would be happy to look up what interests any Somertonite that has no opportunity to do so. I bid you good day at this juncture, and so be it. Cheers
Reading about foldable Kodak box brownies they say the cameraman is about 10 feet away to get it to create a full picture – head and feet.
David this is a close up from the same day, grandpa’s glasses have a reflection that could be a camera on a table? I looked into timers and the did have them back then.
https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/kXnHWoOqSRwx
@sharon C,
It could just be a box for the camera. It would make sense the photographer put the box down. Otherwise, Carl had devised a timer for the 1929 ?Kodak/Coronet box brownie?.
https://onlineshop.oxfam.org.uk/brownie-box-camera-with-case/product/HD_301361117?pscid=ps_ggl_OOS+-+Performance+Max+-+ROAS+320_&crm_event_code=20REUWWS08&gclid=CjwKCAjwzo2mBhAUEiwAf7wjkkrdgNXuKIq5V8Yaz0mQTPluB9ToKPrvfVGHS6ova14yMoZLHtkPRhoCQngQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Richard and Eliza’s shoes from picnic day:
https://imgur.com/LdFAWHM
Building appears to be from the picnic day:
https://imgur.com/BgAs0wa
Background from same photo as shown on Australian Story:
https://imgur.com/HdMF210
Four photo from album Carl doesn’t seem to be showing
teeth in this photo …. and yet in other versions he has plenty of teeth showing
…. very mysterious.
https://imgur.com/ohJstPg
@Poppins,
Excellent observations. It shows we are being taken on a photoshop tour of the Webb family where the truth is being obscured. Perhaps they never appeared together in the same photo as a family. It might explain the height issues if the people were scaled to fit with the others.
I wasn’t sure what the shoe story was…explain.
@Poppins,
Notice the diagonal lines – indicating it may be picture fabrication by AI (Remini) – it added teeth and glasses. Shoes I’m not sure?
@DavidMorgan, just having a look at Remini now, never seen it before, super interesting, amazing really, goody, will give it a try – it wants me to feed it cookies.
Hey, I just put the shoes up to see the vintage, height of Eliza’s shoe, etc – her shoes look 1920s style to me, with a bit of a heel adding to her height. Richard’s shoes aren’t very clear, small heel.
@Poppins,
Remini either invented or augmented the teeth. Possibly some teeth were visible and it made up the rest. Sometimes using the free version if you zoom in etc you lose the diagonal lines. But then it becomes a bit misleading as no-one knows it was AI what done it.
I also use hotpot.ai to colorise because it’s free and does a good job. I think you have to pay for other hotpot stuff.
Myheritage has a new photodater – so if Stuart has a good copy of the original it might become more accurate with its estimate
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16xcL0VwzII986HJxSnNc6NYdcVB_VNqx/view?usp=sharing
Here it is saying 1931 (+/- 6) and also assumed that originally the image was colour. True?
@ Poppins
Poppins on May 27, 2023 at 11:02 pm said:
It’s a bit interesting, hey, that Hickey Taylor’s brother Ernest William Taylor was living at 93 Willis Street, Hampton in 1962! Can anyone find where he was living back in to the day when the family pic was taken?
He was living at Claremont street, South Yarra. He filed a divorce at the age of 26 on grounds of desertion. Looks familiar!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3972282
@ David Morgan
All photos shown in the family album during the TV programme were black and white. The average error of 6 years is not of much help.
@Pat,
Looking at the chart the next longer line was 1920 not 1940 you would imagine the probability it was more likely before 1930.
@ Pat & Poppins – the Claremont Street address is interesting. Until the 1990s the street was mainly industrial, apart from a hotel/boarding house – the Claremont Hotel, on the corner of Toorak Road. It’s still there. It’s also very close to 274 Domain Road, where Charlie & Doff lived prior to moving to Bromby Street & to Jack Keane’s airforce referee who lived at 154 Toorak Road (which is a shop). It’s not far from Surrey Road, where Hickey’s parents lived.
@ David,
That makes sense if Amy is in the photo.
I think I will refrain from posting unless I have good info, this thread is too long, and except for a few punters nobody seems to be interested any more.
Cheers!
Thanks Pat and Jo … I’m gonna have a look at that document, could be some clues in it re Hickey, will let you know.
It isn’t that punters aren’t interested any more Pat, it’s just that they aren’t much interested in the stuff you’re interested in, like the fruitless search for Dorothy Jean nobody. Entendue?
And do you seriously think someone is interested in what you think? I don’t give a toss, mate. Good luck, you’ll need it.
St Patrick’s Day celebrations in March 1929 took place throughout the week and mostly from Saturday the 16th to Monday the 18th.
All Catholic schools including Christian Brothers took part in processions in Melbourne and picnics, sports carnivals, races and dances everywhere.
Hickey Taylor’s birthday was on the 19th.
Perhaps they got together to celebrate his birthday, hence his name on the back of the photo, after Leo took part in a procession, hence his school uniform.
Monday the 18th was Baker’s Holidays, hence the Webb’s presence.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204212537?searchTerm=picnic
The Keane family had Irish ancestry, Margaret McSweeney, Gerald Keane’s paternal grandma, and Anne Muphy, his maternal grandma.
NicholasP … you have been quoted.
@ PB – the horse doesn’t look too lively!