Since ABC’s recent “My Name Is Charles” documentary (in its “Australian Stories” strand), I’ve been sitting back trying to make sense of it all. On the one hand, the film makers did a good job of bringing a human side to the whole “Carl/Charles/Charlie Webb is the Somerton Man” story, while grabbing the best bits from all their previous Tamam Shud docos. On the other hand, I’m far from convinced the family have got the, ummm, right Charlie yet.
The Family Image
Here’s the family image from the documentary, with Charlie highlighted near the top right:
I suspect the reason that commenters here have tied themselves in knots trying to date this image is because the person identified as “Charlie” looks a bit too young, and a bit too blond:
Charles Richard Webb
Yet Carl Webb (born 1905 in Footscray) wasn’t the only Charlie in the immediate Webb family. His oldest brother Russell (born 1893) had a son Charles Richard Webb (born 1917, m.1943, etc etc):
As a reminder, the Somerton Man looked like this (admittedly on a worse day):
So, which of these two Charlies is in the family photos? Personally, I think it’s Charles Richard Webb, but over to you all, convince me either way.
I note that Charles Richard Webb lived at 97 Punt Road, Windsor, at the time he enlisted for war service in WWII but moved to Ringwood & Eltham. Can anyone tell who else lived there and between which years?
(I’m interested in proximity to Joe Gavey @ 29 Greville St, a Punt Road baccarat school & a historic event in this area…).
I think we’d need more context- eg year, who else is in the picture, where was it taken, etc before really deciding. Stuart Webb may have more details…
One possibility is that Charlie is actually the photographer? I would expect the back row to be the three Webb brothers, but then if the boy lying in the front of the frame is Norman Webb, I’d expect brother Charles to be in the photo too… I don’t think either of Jack or Leo Keane is there… I’m open to arguments either way!
I liked the doco, the contemporary family presented really well, how strange for them all to suddenly be related to all of this mystery history!
Doubtful and suspicious. They look like too happy a lot for folk that wouldn’t call in an ID to the newspaper or the police. (was there an explanation of this?) He doesn’t really look like the SM honestly.
Not quite content.
The lad on the family photo is Carl ‘Charlie’ Webb, no doubt about it. And he is the Somerton Man. It’s interesting trying to find out who are the others, but I don’t see any problem regarding who is the ‘right’ Charles.
I agree with Pat on this.
You can test how well you are in (super)recognising people from pictures in this online test:
https://facetest.psy.unsw.edu.au/
Also, when in doubt, look at the ears. Ears, like fingerprints, are very specific.
I am confident that the one identified as Charles Richard Webb is not TSM. Nor would I say that “Charlie” looks at all too young to fit the bill. Referring again particularly to the body’s distinctive ears (of which there are many pictures), I think they’ve gotten the ID correct.
Jo:
I think you’re right that the boy in front could be Norman (Charles Richard’s brother) as the resemblance is there. And I’m still of the opinion that the fellow farthest to the left might be a young Jack Keane. Charles Richard and Leo, being the oldest of the children, were perhaps independent enough to be off doing something else at the time. Or perhaps one or both of them were behind the camera… Leo particularly, with his apparent future career in the media industry…
But then, on that note, can anyone say for certain whether the Leo Keane pictured in the newspaper clipping is actually our Jack’s brother, or might he be an entirely different fellow with the same name? I don’t think I’ve seen anything definitive regarding any Keane child aside from Jack… one site lists Leo and Gwen (born in 1919) as his siblings, and elsewhere it’s only Gwendoline and there is no Leo at all!
the guy circled is Carl Webb mainly because of his closeness to his brother and to Thomas Keane
@ em
Not to mention that he is ’embracing’ his mom and dad along with Roy.
@ Pat
Convinced 🙂
Nick Pelling: reckon I’ll leave it to the accredited facial recognition experts like PeteDavo and Gordon Cramer to make the all important call but, if it were left to me I’d probably say the ears have it.
@ Nick, @ Misca – is Charles Richard on the electoral roll for 97 Punt Road, Windsor? (1942). If so for how long? Who else lived there?
@ Pat – I think you found Charles playing in army billiards competitions some time ago… also training as a Sunday school teacher with his sister Doris.
Jo –
I haven’t found him on Electoral rolls until 1943 and by then, he’s living with Paparina on Kendall Street. (Which is the Divola family home.)
I’ve checked the 1945 Sands & Mac Directory & 97 Punt Road was flats at that time, so it may be difficult to get information on other tenants, nevertheless interested to know who else may have been living with Charles Richard Webb at that address.
That’s our man nick.
The “blond ” is due to the sunlight falling across the side of his head on what looks like a cloudless day. Carl had light hair any way but the sun has burnt it out. You see the same effect in photos taken of people outside in direct sunlight. All the distinctive features are there , the wide bridge of his nose, the chin and hairline match but the ears are a perfect match.
Jo: Per “Australian Jewish Herald” 7 Jan 1943 Page 8, a Mr & Mrs Leo Brenner lived at this address.
As a ‘strawberry blond’ myself, my hair has gone from very blond when young to a light brownish-red as I’ve gotten older, and I can still get quite blond highlights in the sun, so I can easily believe its the same person hair colour wise.
I also think the ears are more like the Somerton man, but admittedly its hard to tell when the two Charlies were related and the pictures aren’t exactly hi-def.
Whilst everyone is busy jumping onboard the photo ID bus, like the Dude, I’m more interested in following Charlie’s potential Trans- Australian Railway journey.
I’ve always wondered why Charlie’s family hadn’t reported him missing or didn’t know his whereabouts, they seem to have previously been quite close.
This may be controversial but here goes:
The Somerton Man was recognised by two prominent baccarat players – as the Dude has mentioned, these men came forward at some risk to themselves as baccarat was illegal in 1948 and sometimes associated with other forms of organised crime.
When Doff called the police due to feeling unsafe in the face of Charlie’s violent behaviour, the first police officer, Constable Coleman, was someone he knew. Charlie got out of bed and made the officer a cup of tea. The second constable, Carter, knew Charlie and agreed with Doff that he could be a dangerous character. This is all detailed in Doff’s divorce deposition. Was Constable Carter the same Constable Carter who was in the gaming squad, accused by his sergeant, Biddington, of not applying himself to the role, but rather being in the pocket of the baccarat bosses instead?
Doff’s deposition also discusses card games, knives being produced and frequent gambling.
Charlie seems to have disappeared from Melbourne in mid 1947, likely moving to Cottesloe, WA.
This is basically before or around the time of the shooting down of con man James Coates, near the corner of Punt Road and Union Street, Windsor, likely on his way to a Punt Road baccarat school. Coates had been harassed and intimidated in the weeks prior to his death and is believed to have been chased by car by several men prior to the shooting. He had tried to open rival baccarat schools and was also suspected of being a police informant. His prewar history as an international conman is, as Pete Bowes remarks, “something else” – he managed to swindle the Prince of Wales amongst others…
The crime scene – a vacant lot, was practically next door to where Charles Richard Webb had been living (97 Punt Road) and a ten minute walk from Joe Gavey’s 29 Greville Street home (Gavey being Roy Webb’s father in law and a man with known underworld activities and connections in the period between the wars).
Coates had been living at an apartment at 50 Walsh Street, South Yarra (I once lived in the apartments next door to this address!); this is a ten minute walk from Bromby Street.
Unknowns:
– exactly when Charlie left Melbourne
– any connections to Coates, Gavey or Fred (Freddy the Frog) Harrison, with Harrison believed to have been Coates’ murderer.
– the address of the baccarat school – 14-16 Punt Road? The old Tai Pai cafe?
– any ongoing connections between the Webbs and 97 Punt Road
-any details of the police investigation into Coates’ murder, including those suspected of being involved.
Maybe Charlie got caught up in the baccarat action of ’46-7 and was in hiding prior to his death? This may explain why no one know where he was an no one missed him. I note that Ruby Webb and Doff lived very close to each other in 1949, possibly earlier…
Thanks to the Dude for sharpening my thinking on this one… I could be completely wrong and out of order in terms any connection between Charles Webb and any of the above… See also Pete Bowes’ Toms by Two Somerton Man blog https://tomsbytwo.com/, which has been running along these themes and Nick’s earlier baccarat related pages… (or are you two like old baccarat bosses who like to your own schools exclusive and close?). @ Nick, I’d be happy to map this out if you thought it was worth further exploration On the other hand, everyone is now dead and unable to tell us what exactly went down and we have a contemporary family to think about….
If anyone has access to the Herald Sun there was a story about Coates’ murder earlier this year (I don’t and don’t want to subscribe to the Murdoch press). There is also plenty on Trove and also quite a bit on Constables Buggy and Carter, who as Clive tells us (on Pete Bowes’ site) were once reassigned to toilet cleaning duty! Maybe I need to get back to my own weekend cleaning, rather than going down a murky SM wormhole!
Jo: Dorothy, being the innocent beaten and badly used housewife that she was, presumably had no knowledge whatsoever of her mean and dangerous partner’s connections with Melbourne’s seedy side after dark…Hey wait up a tick according to her own Sworn deposition, Carl was inclined to hit the fart sack at 7pm sharp so in that context we’ll need to come up with an explanation that accommodates with his duties at the all night Windsor club. Perhaps if our not so loving couple weren’t sharing the same room (apart from one night in Jan ’46), I guess a bloke could get out onto the balcony around nine or ten, shimmy down and be gone without the cheese and kisses twigging. After all it was only for ten weeks and the fact that he had a daytime job at Sherr could be a perfect alibi should constable Carter get inquisitive…right?
Publish me your fuxking cocksucker Cunt
Slut: Your contribution is timely. There are people here that might be able to solve the code you wrote.
@ Jo
Ofcourse those lines you describe need to be followed up.
However concerning Dorothy’s affidavit, it is only one side of the story and may be totally incorrect. It may be totally inappropriate to judge Carl’s character based on her testimony alone and be the exact opposite. For starters, her own temperament is unknown. We don’t know for instance if she provoked and challenged him a lot, pulling at him, slapping him, throwing things at him. He may have pushed her off him which she may have labelled as hitting her. We simply don’t know. According to her own testimony, he wanted to separate and for her to leave him alone but she did not accept that. The incident with the knife, for all we know it could just have been a toast knife that was on the table to smear pate with which he had in his hands gesturing when he lost the card game and she made a big deal out of it. Concerning the constable, maybe he just agreed with her when she claimed to have been hit, that that is dangerous. Her story of the barbiturates and ether is also somewhat questionable. Ether is usually used to tame/anesthesize another, not oneself. We simply don’t know, it is between the two of them.
Personally I don’t see Carl’s character as a member of a loving bakers family, educated as electrical engineer, sportive, love for and writing poetry, keeping a poetry book with him at all time, fit with that of a Melbourne underworld figure involved in shooting parties.
I think the boy at the front is Leo.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1b31_3SNT2NHzuk0EhThGG9oSVe9V0Q-A/view?usp=sharing
Unknowns:
– exactly when Charlie left Melbourne
– any connections to Coates, Gavey or Fred (Freddy the Frog) Harrison, with Harrison believed to have been Coates’ murderer.
we know that Roy was associated with the Gaveys through his wife. Given the closeness between Carl and Roy , i can only come to the conclusion that he was inducted into the criminal arrangements. if he was known to the police he might have been an informant??
I relation to Doff’s claims although i am sure that there were marital problems, i think that it was in her benefit to over emphasize the abuse claims since she really wanted out of the marriage in light of her imminent chid birth.
what i would like to know what connection there was between Prosper and the Melbourne gang.
@ David
Wrong ears. This isn’t Leo.
You could argue about the accuracy of Doffs claims and come to your own conclusions.
For mine Doffs testimony has the ring of truth to it. The details are there including the names of two police officers that attended Bromby st due to a domestic which would be verifiable.
In regards to the nitkeeper job contradicting Doffs testimony that Carl was in bed early most nights the two baccarat players reported that he was only there for about 10 weeks only then disappeared so Doffs statement doesn’t contradict that as it would have been her general reflection over the 7 odd years they were married.
More to the point the fact that Doff describes Carl as an angry loner rings true because no-one came forward. I reckon even if the Colonel went missing someone would go out looking for him , maybe even file a missing persons. Im struggling to think of who in his case but no-one went looking for Carl. No sweetheart , best mate , room mate ,boss ,colleague, no-one .
I know its hard to imagine Carl in the criminal world cos maybe over time some people have grown fond of him and yeah he played a few games of footy and his dad owned a bakery, so what!! Squizzy Taylor came from a hard working family , worked with horses and was a jockey. He was also a violent thug and hardened career crook.
@Sandra P re: “Personally I don’t see Carl’s character as a member of a loving bakers family,….fit with that of a Melbourne underworld figure involved in shooting parties”
It doesn’t take much for people to change. Not all thugs come from a dark past. People fall off the rails all the time – some people even seem to be born a little off the rails. A few knocks to the head while playing footy, a little bit of drug use at school – there’s a load of factors that could contribute to someone in a seemingly supported background spiraling into dark places. As for writing and poetry – that can be a dark place itself – not all poetry is roses and rainbows. I think if anything poetry (and perhaps more broadly writing) can be a place where people dwell on their darkest places and bottle up a lot of the issues just below the surface.
Perhaps it’s not that dissimilar to celebrities who appear happy and ‘normal’ (for some definition of normal) but are one day found dead at their own hand. Similarly, just because someone seems to have it all in a less celebrity sense (as you point out family, schooling, sporting ability) doesn’t mean there’s not something bubbling beneath the surface.
Would we consider Dorothy’s claims about Charlie consistent with someone from a loving family with seemingly no issue?
Would we consider the apparent falling out between the Webb families (Charlie and Doff seem to disappear altogether while other family members don’t)?
And if we wanted to speculate a bit….
Perhaps he never wanted to study engineering, but was pushed by his family. Perhaps he wasn’t a massive fan of footy, but his older brothers (or his dad) pushed him into it so he’d “be a man”. Perhaps poetry and writing was his thing, but it was stifled by the ‘supportive family’ who saw it as a useless waste of time.
Or perhaps it’s a lot less melodramatic. Perhaps he simply got mixed into the wrong crowds through his footy mates (I played football (at a very, very amateur level) and I can say for a fact that some of the people I played with mixed in very different circles to what I did). Or perhaps he made friends with someone at college who introduced him into a world of cards that led to bigger things.
All of it is speculation, but I’d be reluctant to dismiss any criminal or underworld connections or involvement purely on the basis of an apparently happy life.
For those outside Australia who think the son of a baker who played football couldn’t possible be involved with criminals search “Ben Cousins” An amazingliy talented footballer , won a Brownlow medal which is awarded to the fairest and most brilliant player in the country.
He comes from an amazing loving family. In his 20s he was handsome articulate young man / sports hero photographed walking the red carpet with beautiful women on his arm.
Ben has spent the last decade in and out of jail for criminal activities including domestic violence ,resisting arrest and a long list of other crimes . He has a long and chequered association with underworld figures.
So I can’t see how Carl’s dad owning a bakery and really all we know about his sporting career is that he played for his school and at an open day in Springvale.
The pile of letters and envelopes in his suitcase show that he apparently kept in contact with several people, while travelling for a longer period of time. The ones he wrote must have known why he was travelling or away, which may be the reason why they did not report him missing.
Has anybody ever seen or heard tell mention of Carl’s morose death wish poetry or has anyone else including latter day family historians been known to speak ill of him eg., his being known for mood swings with accompanying display of rudeness towards aquaintances and a resultant low social standing; his having a predilection towards gambling and thus known for his being a sore loser; also the well covered attempt by poor Carl at self destruction by overdosing on barbiturates etc., plus frequent outbursts of domestic violence and accompanying deprivations towards his spouse….In September 1947 Dorothy left Carl of her own accord and according to most accounts never saw or heard from him again, though she did not swear to that in her divorce petition. I’ll let others be the judge (and jury) as to the reliability of a spurned woman’s allegations, especially those levelled against a defenceless respondent spouse…apart of course from the denial claim outlined in para. 20 of Dorothy’s Sworn affidavit dated 5th June, 1951. This does not sit at all well with my intuitive nature and which is supported by certain close familial links to the death declaration that go well beyond chance or logic based assessment of the known facts imo.
em: Prosper, for what it’s worth, was a known associate from at least 1936, of the Melbourne based U.S. (Kansas) Burch family crime syndicate with Australasia wide influence having offices in both Sydney and Melbourne and dating back to their arrival from the states around 1919.
I don’t believe that could be Charles Richard in the large family photo as the attire of the younger women dates that photo to the 1920s, when he would have still been a child.
If it was Charles Richard the photo would be in the late 1930s. Young women would not be wearing cloche hats, bobs, and dropped waist dresses in the late 1930s, as these would gave been out of date by then.
Charlie is Charles Richard … I’ve just upset the applecart….
Petebowes: so, contrary to evidence given at the 1949 inquest by Police and two experienced pathologists who saw the body prior to it’s eventual degradation, it seems you’re happy to follow the PeteDavo TS/BS lead and plug for a man twenty years younger and considerably shorter. I can accept that in light of there being nothing known of Charles Richard having died anywhere else or at a later date; Still I’m by no means comfortable on certain other aspects that depart from Abbott’s ‘My name is Charlie’ stance. I’ve also factored in the lack of fingerprint matching to Charles Richard who, according to painstaking research undertaken at your own direction reveals his undoubted connection to the very worst of Melbourne’s 40s gangland element…and yet we have no prints on file which doesn’t make a lick of sense at all, would you not agree Peteb?.
John Sanders … blah blah blah … winners grin, losers blather.
@ John Sanders
According to Family Search Charles Richard died in 1995 & his wife died ten years ago. There is no evidence that I’m aware of that he was involved in any criminal activity in the 1940s or any other time, although his WWII service file is a bit odd – ie his discharge record seems to be for someone else.
In July 1947, James Coates who was involved in the bacarrat brawls of the mid 1940s, was murdered in the vacant lot next to the flats where Charles lived at the time of his enlistment. Charles had moved on from there four or five years earlier. (Thank you Clive Turner & Misca for info on 97 Punt Road & Charles’ électoral roll records).
Charles uncle, Charlie, aka the Somerton Man, may have been involved in the baccarat scene and seems to have disappeared from Melbourne some time after June 1947, possibly before (ie June 1947 is the last time he paid his wife’s maintenance).
James Coates’ inquest file is available at the PROV and oleo has been written about him over time.
@ John Sanders
According to Family Search Charles Richard died in 1995 & his wife died ten years ago. There is no evidence that I’m aware of that he was involved in any criminal activity in the 1940s or any other time, although his WWII service file is a bit odd – ie his discharge record seems to be for someone else.
In July 1947, James Coates who was involved in the bacarrat brawls of the mid 1940s, was murdered in the vacant lot next to the flats where Charles lived at the time of his enlistment. Charles had moved on from there four or five years earlier. (Thank you Clive Turner & Misca for info on 97 Punt Road & Charles’ électoral roll records).
Charles uncle, Charlie, aka the Somerton Man, may have been involved in the baccarat scene and seems to have disappeared from Melbourne some time after June 1947, possibly before (ie June 1947 is the last time he paid his wife’s maintenance).
James Coates’ inquest file is available at the PROV and plenty has been written about him over time.
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/coates-james-5694
James Coates for beginners…
If we went for a date of around 1935 then Russell’s children are:
Charles (back row, next to Russell): 17
Doris (next to grandma): 16
Norman: foreground, in shorts: 14
Ethel, hands over head: 9
Roy may have been the driver for his parents.
PB & Nick may be right on this one! It would make sense for all of Russell’s children to be in the photo as the album came to Stuart Webb via his grandfather Norman.
Peteb: sorry to break the sad news regarding your not having factored in poor Charles Richard Webb having been known to police, his fingerprints were and are still on file with CFB. For your impertinence and childish retort I’m puting off on giving more detail just to let you stew in your own bitter brew. As for there being no record of his passing, I have an inkling of what sad end may have befallen your perloined SM though I’m not by any means convinced just yet. As for the blah blah blah snipe and it’s implied sentiment, all I can say is that born losers can please themselves.
Nick Pelling: from my limited vantage seems as if Jerry Somerton has an overbite whereas Peteb’s Charles Richard Webb a fairly pronounced underbite. Not to worry though, seeing as the pair can be easily separated by scaring of the right leg and thigh in the latter and nothing in the first aforementioned SM. Three rather distinguished medical examiners and an attendant cop or two did not mention this stand out feature in their respective inquest testimonies. And that’s a fact not a fancy.
Jo: I would expect Carl Webb is somewhere (else) in the family photo album, just not on the photos helpfully labelled “Charlie”. :-/
Jo,
Doesn’t this family group make it 1930 +/- 2.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m1ERcDXma96U9aja9tF22sM4adriPOcy/view?usp=sharing
Carl is around 25?
The Somerton Man was 5’11” …. Roy Webb was 5’9”
Both men in the photo with gran and pops are the same height.
RC Webb was 5’9”
A man doesn’t have to be Einstein
Petebowes: yup, I just saw your post – https://tomsbytwo.com/2022/12/05/if-you-think-these-two-men-are-about-the-same-height-then-weve-got-the-wrong-charlie/
Job done.
I’ll get out of your way now.
Springvale Football Club had a photo taken of their 1930 Premiership team, there is a tall unnamed player in the back row. He could pass as a good looking version of SM on a good day, in better times. The photo is indistinct and I haven’t been able to find another copy or the original (via the club, which merged with another some time ago). We haven’t found any references to Webb. The only reference I found to the photo was one in the local paper of the time, saying that the team had gone to Oakleigh to have their photographs taken. If anyone is around Springvale on a Thursday afternoon there may be more photos or another copy of this one at the historical society…
@ Pete Bowes
That would be true IF Carl and Roy were standing side by side, in an upright position, which is NOT the case.
Pat, if Roy was to straighten up he would be even taller than the 5’11” Carl …. Yet he was only 5’9” ..
Pete Bowes: Should’ve gone to Specsavers.
Apart from Charlie being in the back row behind Ma, Pa and bro, Charlie looks absolutely nothing like Charles Richard Webb. And what is strikingly obvious is that Charlie in the Swinburne team photo looks like Charlie in the family photo and looks like the Somerton Man. Charles Richard Webb also looks nothing like the Somerton Man.
Lurch: I don’t think the answer is quite as obvious as you think it is – but at the same time, I put up this post to see if there was some definitive aspect of the argument for or against I was missing, so I’m not yet 100% either way. Pete Bowes’ height argument is pretty good, but as always proof is hard.
Lurch,
I agree. The blogs that spread mixed messages are simply trying to keep an audience engaged.
But then we do have the problem that we can’t know who is being referred to when C. Webb appears in newspapers on Trove – we can infer some from the date or position next to Roy in obituaries.
But also we have other images that facial ID says are Carl – i.e. the 18-year-old version likely from his sister’s wedding. The young blond boy with the button/badge.
@PB: That’s ok, other sites have previously flagged that Fedosimov SM chnaged height post mortem. Height is just an inconvenience….
A little more seriously (and I’ve not checked your site yet at the link NP posted (heading their shortly)) judging height from Photos like this is difficult because you don’t know the lie of the land behind, and there’s subtle perspective stuff at play (Roy appears further forward etc….). It’s an extreme example, but flick through house listings and check out the fisheye lens….
I think CRW does look like the Somerton Man and I think he looks like the individual referred to as Charlie in the family photos does resemble the images of CRW so I can see why there’s an issue. Is this just due to a general family resemblance ?
On the matter of height , yep there’s an issue to however there are a few things to consider.
Firstly if you look at the group photo its taken on a slope. the photographer is not square on to the group and the three lads at the back are seated. You can tell by the posture , particularly the oldest brother in the middle. The group is looking down at the photographer who has wisely put them on the slope to count for head heights. (so you can see everyones face) the photographer is down slope looking up through the lens.
Moving on to the group of 4 shot including Roy you’ve got the possibility that this group was taken on the same sloped area. I think it is because all four subjects are looking down slightly which to me means that the photographer is looking up at the group.
So you’ve to consider weather the subjects standing apart on a slopped area is effecting the head heights.( Charlie is on slightly higher ground that Roy or visa versa)
Also due to the shirts some commenters have suggested that there was usually games like tennis being played at these type of gatherings in the day so you’ve got the possibility that one subject is wearing footwear and the other subject has taken his shoes off to change in to his dunlop volleys for a tennis match etc.
So in an ideal world if heights are going to be the definitive test you would like to see Roy and “Charlie” side by side on flat ground in bare feet.
So the Jurys out for mine.
@PB: Actually you have me reasonably convinced that the Charlie in the photo is junior (do we know roughly when the photo was taken?). I think the most telling bit is the hairstyle, and it’s interesting that the phot o is labelled with ‘Grandma’ and ‘Grandpa’ (although of course we don’t know who labelled the picture).
Pretty sure it’s not our young Charles, but there’s a Charles Richard WEBB listed in the SMH family notices 11/07/1950:
WEBB, Charles Richard.—July 9,1950, late Chief Warden, Rockdale. Privately cremated at Woronora, July 10, 1950.
I only mention it because the dates seem phenomenal….died 9th, cremated 10th, listed 11th……that’s efficiency.
Peteb: I’ll repeat this for your own deliberations. Charles Richard Webb 1917/55 was the proud owner of extensive? scarring to his right leg and thigh, likely result of his brush with a rogue crocodile in Port Phillip Bay as a youth; shades of Byron’s Charles Mikkelsen SM who sadly for BD, sported a great slash across his stomach consequence of a ruptured appendix. Shit happens old cock..and in the much copied Paul Hogan @ crocodile Dundee sign off…I’ll get out of your way now!
How to keep Bert and Ernie apart. Do kids also watch Sesame street in Australia?
dude, so maybe they had been playing tennis and maybe they were standing on a slope and maybe Roy was wearing sandshoes with a two inch sole and maybe Charlie is barefoot. Right?
Why should we be so concerned whether Charlie is in the frame or nay, that’s for Derek Abbott and his well funded dream team alone to determine. CM’s sole objective should be to to dispel any remaining doubts that their Carl Webb be identical with the body at Somerton Beach and to remains exhumed from West Terrace. Only then will we be able to put this sad episode behind us and get on with what’s left of our own hopefully more financially rewarding careers. Should that outcome prove not to be the case and that police forensics eventually come up with an altogether different take on DNA of their own but no name match, then of course CM is still in the game and a chance of better results on our own terms. With ever presence of the usual hostile scavenging drones to keep us on our toes.
@ nickpelling Thank you for shifting the focus back on Charlie and his family of origin. I feel there is much to be gained from learning more about his family and their lives and relationships.
A couple thoughts:
1) On the 4-person photo, the name “Charlie” is written in red ink. I am not sure if this is a post-production effect to highlight Charlie’s name for TV audiences. If not, then these inscriptions were likely made on two separate occasions. Possibly whoever was writing names could identify grandma, grandpa, and Roy, but had hard time identifying Charlie. I wonder what story the person was given about Uncle Charlie who had disappeared from their lives sometime in 1947 or 1948. Was he forgotten by the surviving family members, or was the topic of Uncle Charlie intentionally avoided?
2) On the 4-person photo, “Charlie” and “Roy” appear to be of the same age, I believe in their late teens or early twenties. CRW would have been much been much younger than that. I also agree with @Sonya about the clothing styles, although the new fashion trends would have been stalled in Australia during the Great Depression era. I do believe “Charlie” is Carl. It also makes sense that Richard and Eliza would have a family portrait with their two youngest children, rather than with a son and a grandson from another son. In the photo Charlie is sort of behind his parents, hugging both of them, which suggests his closeness and connection.
3) On the extended family photo, Charlie seems playful and in good spirits. He appears similarly on the 4-person photo. It is sad to see him as a young man, full of promise in those moments of joy, knowing that only a few years later his father will die and then his brother and his mother as well, and how tragically his own life would end.
4) @Jo: I very much enjoyed reading your synopsis. There are some interesting coincidences that you pointed out, which merit further exploration. I agree that Charlie could have gotten involved with some illegal stuff and could have had contacts with underground figures. I do believe he is not likely to be a murderer though, and this for two reasons:
– Charlie’s acts of violence consist mostly of threats and verbal abuse. His acts of violence are not on the scale that is consistent with taking someone’s life. For example, with regards to intimate partner abuse, acts of severely beating the partner, leaving bruises and scars on their body, or choking them, would be consistent with a potential for murdering. This does not seem to be the case here.
– Per Dorothy’s affidavit, Carl’s violence was mostly verbal and reactive, triggered by situational factors (e.g., losing a game or money) and mood swings. His acts of violence don’t seem instrumental, aimed at financial or sexual gains, which is a common motivator for killing in the criminal world.
P.S. I do realize the red ink inscription “Charlie” is just a postproduction highlight effect; still wondering about the story of “Uncle Charlie” that subsequent generations were provided with.
#PB , Yeah all those maybes and more but perhaps I should have paraphrased that to simply say that there’s a lot of variables that could be at play in that image.
@ Sophie – Jame Coates’ murderer is believed to be Frederick Harrison, who was in turn shot in 1958. Harrison was reportedly very volatile & responsible for at least two baccarat school related shootings. I’m not suggesting that Charlie was the gunman for any of these crimes, more that he may have been caught up in the events of that time and wanted or needed to go underground. I wondered at first about Coates’ murder happening so close to a relative’s home but the address was a block of at least 12 flats, occupied in the 40s & 50s mainly by new migrants, many of them Jewish families (there are lots of naturalisation ads in Trove). The Jewish Boy Scouts’ hut was also near to the vacant lot/playground where Coates’ body was found, by a teenage boy. The flats probably weren’t somewhere that underworld types could use or just blend into…
I note that the ad found by Lachlan Kelly (image on Derek Abbott’s Identifying the Somerton Man Facebook page) seeking knowledge of Charlie’s “whereabouts or death”!was published in1958, after Harrison’s death.. This may all be coincidence.
Facial ID is 75% certain Carl is Charles and is the Somerton Man and is the clay death bust.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/155AFdiYVVll3IOsvFsBpA–NbjaX47ey/view?usp=sharing
I have tried to get Mxface to give a score for the mismatch confidence. They are adding the match confidence score.
For example, you might have a score of 0.49 when 0.5 is a match. So a mismatch score would be 0.01 i.e. you could be fairly certain it was the same person or someone who looks a lot like him with a low mismatch score.
Here is a 2nd opinion with facial ID
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yeec9-idmYE1mO6QJOLwXREn-EdSCQa3/view?usp=sharing
But it is impossible (for me!!!) to get a high score match between any image of Carl on the beach and the clay bust/scan of it. That’s why I need a mismatch score. It might just be falling short of a match. For example, if I improve images that sometimes is enough to create a mismatch and in some cases it drops the match score by about 0.03.
Jo: I have to agree with your year estimate of 1935 for the family photo which fits perfectly with your accompaning age estimates for those you have identified as part of the group. What I have some doubts about is that Charles could have lived til 78 going by a death year of 1995 as given in the Family Search details. The fellow was a virtual cripple when he was medically discharged with a ‘D’ classification in 1943 and not much better when he signed up a year earlier. How he could have passed the physical on his second attempt (first was 1940) in 1942 at inlistment is difficult to fathom. His NAA army record reveals that he suffered from muscular dystrophy to his left foot arising from a pre service fracture, had extensive scaring to his right leg and thigh presumably from injuries, plus another distinctive scar on his back from corrective procedures during service and also varicose veins which of itself would render a prospective recruit inelligible for military service. The mind boggles!
I don’t think it’s 1935, otherwise Ruby would have been present.. I’d say 1929-30. Carl and Roy would be in their mid 20s. And Charles Richard would be 12-13 years old. He could be the boy at the front.
Doris married Daniel Martin in 1923. In the group photo the lady in the white hat appears to be holding something in her hand, wish I could figure out what it is, it’s angular, maybe that’s a clue? I think Charlie looks very boyish in the photo, but somehow looks a lot older in the other pic – maybe it’s because the photo was taken by someone on the ground looking up, they all appear to be looking down. Could the unidentified couples be the parents of Leslie, Gerald and Daniel – Leslie definitely looks similar to the man in the hat next to him, and Gladys next to her mother-in-law.
thedude747: the height thing isn’t the only argument in town, but it must be a pretty good one if you’re having to explain it away. 😋
That said, I’d be just as happy with arguments that say “It can’t have been taken before 1933 because xyz has a wedding ring” (or whatever). 🙂
@Pat, exactly, the photo is taken before Roy was married, 1930 sounds about right ….i have never seen a 13-year-old boy looking like that much less one as stocky as CRW. 5 cm height different is not that much especially in light of the photographer’s angle and the clear positioning of the people involved. I am really surprised that apparently intelligent people have fallen for this height argument
True that NP and in this case it falls into the VERY limited area of my expertise having made my humble living as a photographer for 25 years .
I can say the old adage “the camera never lies” is entirely untrue. Many factors come into play as described. Simple example look at a photo taken at a cricket match from the long on boundary behind the batsman facing up. It looks like the batsman and the bowler are side by side when in fact they are 70 plus meters apart. I could go on and really put you to sleep talking about depth of field , the parallax angle and so on but let’s just say I wouldn’t be going to the bank on that evidence alone.
@David M: I’m not familiar with Mxface specifically (so I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I’m wrong), but generally that sort of stuff would have ‘x% probability of match’ (rather than ‘x% certain’). Couple that with the idea that it can be problematic with conclusively identifying faces within families where there can be some genetic similarity.
Given the results so far (that Carl is Charles….) it would be interesting to see what the same software thinks of comparisons of:
– Little Charles and Carl
– Little Charles and SM
– Little Charles and Big Charles
Because I wouldn’t be surprised if one or more of them get 75%+ too – not that I’m suggesting that little Charles is SM, just saying gotta be careful how much we trust the software (and there’s an obvious confirmation bias if we only test for the results we want – because what if other tests actually return a better result?).
BTW This is one of the issues that plagued (and may still plague) GC. He would double down on a ‘proof’ of something, but when offered counter-examples of something totally unrelated started making excuses why the ‘proof’ still stands (if you’re interested there was an argument we had about ‘Danetta’ – where he was excited when we showed you could get it from a verse in Rubaiyat (ironically was trying to show the silliness, but he took it the wrong way), and then turned when we did the same thing with a bible passage….fun times.
Short Version: 75% sounds vaguely impressive – but it’d perhaps be more meaningful if we saw how that compares to matching photos that we don’t expect to match too.
And another thing, see in the top corner left of screen on the large group photo , behind the hedge , if you squint there’s the back of a guys head wearing a hat.
I reckon thats Gordon Cramers grandfather!
Also, I’ll say it again, ’cause I scratched it some more….
the photo is labelled ‘Grandma’, ‘Grandpa’ (‘Roy’, ‘Charlie’).
Who labelled it? Someone at the time the pic was taken, or someone after the fact? Roy (and Carl’s) grandparents would be 95 assuming this was 1935 (and assuming they were still alive), so presumably that’s Richard and Eliza.
So are they the grandparents of the person adding names on the photo (who didn’t refer to either of the other people there as ‘Dad’ or ‘Uncle’) or of someone in the photo (unlikely to be Roy as per my earlier).
BUT….’Charlie’ bothers me a little bit. Is there anything to suggest Charles jr went by ‘Charlie’?
–or– are all of the names on the photo just TV effects?
Pat: Ruby may have been on duty at CWH or attending Sunday Mass with her Gavey kinfolk. Maybe it was her time of month. Whatever the reason for her absence, if that be the case, Melbournites were not inclined to be out wooping it up in 1930 with the depression and all. Things were improving some by ’34 and folks more inclined to be gathering as their fortunes improved. Best that we not speculate at this stage and just let those in touch with the family sort things out compreender?
We also know Charles/Carl was a joker. He stuck his hand above his uncle to make a hat or suggest a wig. Potentially in the photos, he may have been aware he was taller than his dad and wanted to shrink down a bit bending his knees.
There is also the possibility that he attended the bodybuilding club where they claimed to add 3 inches to a person’s height. Online it says if a young person hangs their body from say a pull-up bar for just 10 to 30 seconds per day they can increase their height.
Jo: if you care to scan through the four hundred plus Charles Webb ‘all records’ header on the NAA site, you’ll find reference to an unexamined Victorian file reference in the name Charles R. Webb. It relates to a claim by a dependant and infers by date range that the nominee died between 1950 and 1959. This would be quite at odds with your ‘Family Search’ year of 1995 but falls into my own estimate of 1955.
Thedude4711: that said, I myself personally, would be happy with arguments that say “it can’t have been taken before 1935 because Carl has a Hitler youth ring and xyz you can shove up your jumper”.
milongal: if you can find a pre doco promo pic you’ll find that the added ‘GGCR’ ID’s were quite different in their positioning and blurred. In essence both this labelling and the later version of which we are by now more familiar, be recent additions to the original unmarked album display shot. I’m quite sure that this was not done to deceive the public…like hell it wasn’t.
It might be worth pointing out to any progressive thinking punters left out there, that the two metal frame water towers in the horizon behind the group photo, be so typical of a type erected during the depression years 1929/36 as government projects to help unemployed men find temporary work.
@ John Sanders – you could well be right & 1995 should be 1955. The poor man did have a lot of medical issues going on, probably lots of manual work as a young man – orchards and fruitery seem to be in the mix. Did you see the service file mix up issues too? Family Search also had an ad where Poppy was looking for a lost locket given to her by Charles in 1938. Young love! Her date of death according to Family Search was in 2013, so not so long ago…
@ Sandra
Of course we love Bert & Ernie! You’ve also detected a weird Australian quirk of quibbles over duos! Ie. do you prefer:
B1 to B2
Kylie to Danni
Kath to Kim
Chris to Liam
And for the more cosmopolitan:
Who was the better Beatle – John or Paul?
Stone: Keith or Mick?
Coolest Indian god: Shiva or Krishna?
The answers are usually John, Keith, Shiva and Kylie – it’s often a pre-test before a BBQ invite. At the BBQ the debate will usually continue over B1 and B2 and the Hemsworths…
Jo. I’d go John, Keith ,Kath and B1 who carried B2’s ass for years.
The kid lying across the front in the short pants looks like a 12 -14 year old Jack Keane for mine. The face shape is right and he’s got the wing nut ,oval shaped ears as did Jack in his Air Force shots. The rural setting , looks like an orchard still all fits with the late 20’s timeline for mine as Carl and the family was still in Springvale.
@ John Sanders – water towers?? You must have a better computer screen than me, or are you competing in Peter Bowes’ “Who is the highest?” comp/survey…over on Question Everything…
Please stop all of this nonsense. The photo of the man is NOT the same
Man as the ugly rotting corpse with no skull and a sloppy face taken by Paul Lawson. Lawson himself was full of shit and knew what was going on.
Jo: actually I don’t possess a computer screen never have, thought you would have noticed. I’m thinking that I might tempt the interlopers to drop the twin Charlie farce and adopt my cunning lead on water tower design comparisons. In this case early 20th century ornate architectural designs as opposed to uninspiring 1930s depression era structurally engineered steel framers resembling W. G. Wells’ War of the Worlds monsters, ala those depicted in the Webb photo.
@Milongal,
I have tested Charles R against all images and he doesn’t have a match.
Yeah OK; H.G. Wells not W.G. Wells Boy Scout leader and Bronze Wolf recipient.
I think the guy in the first photo looks much more like the Somerton Man than the guy in the colour photo. The reason I think for the apparent difference in hair colour is simply down to the light, you can see the same effect on the hair of the guy to his right in the family photo. His nose and general shape of his face seem the same. As far as other details like the age, the resolution of the photos makes this comparison difficult. Determining the youthfulness at low resolution makes distinguishing lines and other features hard.
We have more ..
em: don’t take it too hard getting the búms rush from likes of Peteb and all. You lasted at least a dozen posts longer than moi back in ’16. Not sure where you’re headed now but Kyle over at Somerandomstuff @ ‘Ultimate Somerton Man’ could use another smart arse on his site now that Bowes and I are no longer needed to to upset the dreary residents ..If you do chance to cross the line don’t forget to look up Prosper’s association with Empire Art and Burch Bros. Inc. from around 7/4/2020. Best of British mate.
Johnno, I love you like a brother, you know that … but you are a bloody havachat.
Jo: I’d suggest you take care on how you break the news to Pete about Charlie’s short military career commencing in September 1942 and not August 1940 as he would have punters believe. Or else you could become elligible like @em for the usual politely worded “Thanks for your service” order.
There you go again Dusty, spreading Trumpian disinformation in order to gain a counterfeit respect .. shame on you son, an old digger too.
I’m guessing that sometime real soon our past master of no surprises is going to make a closing statement on the Charlie v. Charlie score ie. “Twas all in fun – twas just a little harmless joke, a trifle over done. Didn’t think educated people could be so thick”. Actually I’ve got a feeling he’s just as likely to cut and run. Wonder if I’m being over optimistic and on my pat malone in the suggestion.
We now know nickpelling is a raging great poofter. He refuses to publish facts and instead displays Sandra’s sticky squirtings all over the site. MI6 anyone?
@JohnSanders, I never take things to heart. Challenging points of views is what I am good at. Don’t worry Derek Abbott didn’t seem to like my views either but I will keep on giving them.
@John Sanders, a bit of hissy fit has never stopped me and certainly not a thank you for your service order- Opinions on Carl Webb are not private domain. controlling narrative would hinder rather than help investigations and then truth will be distorted even more. …. take Derek Abbott and his unwillingness to look into Prosper Thomson
@ JS – peteb has survived the news that Richard Augustus died in 1939. Northern Rivers bloggers are fairly hardy. I don’t know how he’ll go though if he persists with his “Who is the highest?” survey…there could be some random contenders introduced into the mix!
One thing about the picture is that I will grant that “charlie” is the happiest looking one in it I think it. Am I right? Sometimes you can be annoying if you are lets say not unhappy and everyone else is truly miserable.Maybe he did death poetry to cheer people up. I think of my bros downunder a lot, having traveled there, and man it is a long way away. What is like, the status of supersonic jets going there some day? Maybe the gravity train that was in Total Recall too? I’m very much a Frankenstein believer, in that scientists must try to make their inventions not make life *worse* for people. The latter Total Recall is not a happy world at all. Don’t want that.
@Matt , happiest he is indeed but that was before the involvement with crime and his wife and barbiturate addiction and his parents and brother dying, his probable fugitive status…his life turning to shit basically….
Qn another note , was this his sister?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/99120828?searchTerm=%22gladys%20may%20scott%22
God I love seeing what you will or won’t let through. You have an impeccable sense of humour.
Love, Ayu.
Excuse me, that wasn’t for the regular swine who inhabit this site! I hope to meet you one day in Britain – if it exists in a year. Can you explain why the Chicago World Fair was built of plaster and burned to the ground? Surely a millennial Royal city before the blue bloods took over. Gross people.
Ayuverdica: if the UK sank into the sea next week leaving only non-doms and swindlers sailing off in their super-yachts stuffed with suitcases of cash and looted treasures, is there a person left on the planet who would be surprised? Frankly, plaster seems like the better option right now.
Em: you can be pretty sure that Gladys Webb-Scott was misidentified as a same name miscreant communist party member. As for Derek’s not showing sufficient interest in Prosper Thomson, that undoubtedly stems from his long time feud with ex defective Feltus, who based part of his now (thankfully) discredited Unknown Man farce on nurse Jessica Thomson’s likely part in the beach death, it’s prelude and aftermath cover-up.
Your website has, frankly, made me fearful and conspiratorial. May I suggest to you Mark Steyn. He is partially of Jewish extraction but is quite concerned about Herr Schwab and those who would rob us of our freedoms hiding in plain sight. I think our King has been… well trained, shall we say? I’m only a troll – indeed your OLDEST troll – because the horror of what confronts me drives me to hysteria. I am not a woman but I have a vagina.
If England was what England seems
An not the country of our dreams,
But only Putty, brass an’ paint,
Ow quick we’d chuck ‘er! But she ain’t!
She’s England yet! The nations never knew her;
Or, if they knew, were ready to forget.
She made new worlds that paid no homage to her,
Because she called for none as for a debt.
For so it was in days long long and when Great Britain Ruled the Waves,
She gained her wealth and rightful name through shackled thieves and slaves,
Though that was then, she still does well with ancient hulks and rusty tools.
For when times are tough and credit tight, Britannia (simply) Waves the Rules.
Pete Bowes: I’m reliably informed that no slick city prawn can compete with the bright red dam yabbies from out at the old Condobolin gold and copper diggings. Shade depends on the amount of Cynide used in the ore extraction process and I understand some well ‘salted’ holes north of the lake produce the biggest, known for peculiar deformities. Fortunately this syndrome doesn’t appear to effect their otherwise supurb eating qualities.
em: it’s always easy being Fun Charlie, but between the Fun Charlies it’s Back to Work Charlie. Those moments can seem like no one loves the Fun Charlie. And when it’s the Young Missus Don’t Find Charlie So Hot anymore, Fun Charlie definitely ain’t so fun. Poor guy.
Yes Johnno, I ‘ve heard that but have been advised that a solid consumption of such shellfish can result in the consumptee believing he has a knowledge far surpassing most of the English speaking people who inhabit this poor diseased sphere … personally, I prefer a plateful of West Aussie scampie drizzled in olive oil and grilled under the supervision of a family of Sicilians.
Depends on which of the five families be supervising Pete and ffs don’t mention Corlione.
I want to call bullshit on this story of the Webbs. My grandfather had seven sisters and a brother, but we always knew of a secondary ‘brother’ (adopted) who lived with the family for a few years and then disappeared. It was ‘the story’ of the family, much as the disappearance of Carl would have been for the Webbs…. Except it wasn’t, was it?
Uncle Carl just disappeared one day and nobody thought to ask why?
Well I asked my ancient great Aunty about our misper recently and she had all the details to hand.
So bullshit that none of the 1940s Webbs knew what happened – if anything – and bullshit that they never told anyone else. And bullshit that him over at the other site was even given the correct pubes from the correct cadaver.
Oh, and bullshit that if that were indeed Charles then nobody in the extended family ever heard about the Somerton Man – because it’s as famous as the Beaumont story with which it is connected.
MAY I MAKE ANOTHER EMERGENCY INTERVENTION.
Man who kills himself and sits up against beach wall does not, repeat, NOT, have lividity at the base of his scalp and back. This is physiologically IMPOSSIBLE. The man was murdered by Prosper, dressed and [Sorry, the words were a bit unclear here – Moderator] off by Jestyn, and then positioned on the beach by a couple of scum bag Adelaide heavies.
This Somerton Man news cycle seems to have peaked!
Jo : when last the cycle peaked 31/8/22 no one was listening or, if they were payed not the slightest notice. Case in point Jo who managed four posts by play lunch.
‘They would not listen, they did not know how, perhaps they’ll listen now.’ Or else ‘They would not listen, they’re not listening still, Perhaps they never will.’ (SS Night)
I think I wrote ‘sucked off’.
How old do you reckon the grandparents are in that shot with Roy and Charlie?
Petebowes: 66 for her and 68 for him although they look older. Fits for the pic to have been taken from ’35 to ’39 for mine.
Age of dad in the photo with blond Charlie 64+/- 1 – age of mother 60 +/-1. Assuming 1930 +/- 1.
John S, Dave Morgan .. that being the case, does it mean Charles Richard was way too young to be the blonde in the pic?
Em, would it change his looks that much? I am doubtful, as others seem to be. I guess I honestly don’t think my opinion means that much, the jury of public opinion will decide, though I thought I would express it nonetheless.
As to the Trove thing, interesting. I will need to think on it more. Could the Scott person in it be related to our friend Bon? I guess I don’t see him as a Commie. I have loved AC/DC ever since I was told I allowed, and would not actually go to hell, from some upright church going friends, back in the day. No joke. The bands great song “Jailbreak” I have thought of over and over about when considering the SM. I was never really sure if the deviant in the song actually made it out, albeit with a bullet in his *back*. Obviously the SM obviously didn’t.
Ayuverdica, (that’s A mouthful), which one is it? The story as initially told was he was witnessed as being alive on the beach. I doubt he was proposed up, perhaps dropped off though. Evidence?
@tom….seen .alive, as in lifting one arm up then dropping it. I have wondered about that but then i stumbled upon the Lazarus sign and then there is this ……
“The electroencephalogram (EEG) of a person with phenobarbital overdose may show a marked decrease in electrical activity, to the point of mimicking brain death. This is due to profound depression of the central nervous system”
….so not sure what to make of it.
sorry @Matt , not sure why i put Tom there, … hahaha….
Ayurvedica: I couldn’t possibly have let that through moderation, so one of us must be mistaken.
@Peteb,
You know yourself the blond guy is Carl because he is with his mother, father and brother. This alternative view is exciting for blogs to consider but reality has to take over at some time.
The group of 4 without Russell might be because he is taking the photo. But logically Russell is the big guy between his brothers in the large family group. His family have the photo album so someone in his family may have taken the photo or he owned the camera.
I am not keen on the big child lying down at the front being Charlie Richard but in terms of who owned the camera etc. it may be possible it is Charlie or Norman. His family would have wanted their own child to be prominent. Someone is also taking the picture with Russell’s camera (most probably) so either his wife or child. Chances are the camera was a 35mm Leica.
In 1942 they were asking citizens to hand their 35mm cameras in to be used by the RAAF.
Its ok, @em, hard to tell friends from the enemies here. A bit of a slugfest, people calling each other nutters and such. I would say anyone out there “knows” the truth, stick with it. The original narrative doesn’t allow for him being more or less placed there. In it, he strolled down to the beach, chilled out, and died. I guess careful mobsters could have placed a lit cigarette in his hands, came up with phony witnesses, etc. I guess I favor the truth serum scenario most, although truth serums aren’t suppose to exist. There’s been how many Bourne films…with tech that is more exotic. Not really a doctor though.
David Morgan: more leica Kodak Eastman 3A (B3) 122 folding bed model. Very popular with the amateur camera buffs than the more sophisticated German 135s in pre war Australia.
Matt: I believe the standard reply to truth serum conspiracy theories is that “there’s one Bourne every minute”. :-p
how a persons hair can change colour so drastically as in how does a mousy brown hair turn blond and vice versa …well there is the sun and sea water….which brings me to the question , since CWs hair darkened was it from the lack of sun….as in he could have been in a colder country where the sun don’t shine, ie England or Ireland?? …..
David M … the strength of the argument that says Charlie is taller than Roy is that he is standing further away from the camera while Roy is by the Grandma’s side … I’d like to challenge that belief in that Roy loses height by not standing upright. My feeling is that one cancels the other and both men are the same height, 5’9”.
In addition, if we were to believe the grandparents were about 70 when photographed then Charlie would have been in his early thirties. Meaning he had gone from being a blonde haired, fully toothed young man to a middle-aged man with most of his teeth missing and crowned with mousey coloured hair with an orange tint and a little grey about the temples in about a dozen years.
I’ve checked with a hairdresser on that, she says blonde to mouse-coloured doesn’t happen without a sachet or three, and it’s usually the other way around.
David Morgan: I can’t see where either your Carl or Pete’s Charles bare any real likeness to Somerton Man. Such being the case the pictures become a moot point along with the whole ‘My Name is Charlie’ contention. In saying that, I still see Carl as being best candidate for camerman, a skill learnt from a boyhood passion for bird watching. In that case you have to feel some empathy with Dorothy….Leica or not.
I’d say the family photo is circa 1928 – speculation and conjecture, of course.
[cheap generic bald insult]? Arise from your fragrant bed and favour your devout following with an indication of your opinion.
Too much to ask?
em: Jack Lyons was an army medic in the trenches during world war one, so he saw death in all it’s all many and varied forms. When interviewed in the 70’s about his initial twilight sighting of Somerton Man on the beach from a distance of twenty yards he considered that the arm lifting and falling may not have been voluntary ie., a death spasm or early onset of rigor mortis. He had not mentioned this scenario in his inquest statement, nor during an earlier or later interview with John Ruffles.
Peteb: when I put up this post, all I wanted to do was flag that it wasn’t at all obvious to me that the young blonde guy in the picture tagged as “Charlie” was the one who the documentary makers thought it was, and that I needed a bit more proof to be sure it wasn’t a mistake – a well-intentioned one, probably, but a mistake nonetheless.
Your 5’9″ / 5’11” thing is definitely a move in the right direction, but the pendulum still hasn’t swung fully towards Charles Richard Webb (in my opinion).
Or are you talking about something else?
Before criticising and going public with your opinions on whether a person in a familypicture is really the one his family says he is, you should really be very sure of yourself because it is rather respectless IMO. Also bear in mind that CR has relatives as well that can identify him.
If you truly are in doubt, you first need to be sure of your own capacities to recognise others in a picture, which you can test for instance here:
https://facetest.psy.unsw.edu.au/
If all else fails, look at some of the basic techniques profs in facial recognition or portret artists use. Look at the thickness, colour and shape of the eyebrows. Look at where the ears are positioned compared to the eyebrows. Then compare it to the person you want to compare it with.
Concerning the blonde haircolour, it is far too variable to draw any conclusions with. First hand experience, not from a hairdresser. It can darken with ageing, vary from year to year, vary from sunlight exposure, vary from swimming, vary by lightfall, vary from being wet or dry, and so on and so forth.
Petebowes: for a change we might shift the onus onto non contender Roy and try a shot at estimating the age difference between his induction photo in mid ’40 and that of his image in the undated family shot. Not so appreciable by my reckoning, certainly no more than five years. This might point to one Charlie as opposed to the other and give us a winner.
@John Sanders yes as i was trying to say spinal reflexes if the person is brain dead, they sometimes move, sometimes lifting their arm or moving their body….my question was what causes brain death if no poison was found in the body- an aneurism caused by high blood pressure.?
in terms of hair colour my granddaughter likes to tell me that in the summer her hair is golden and in the winter it turns brown……besides he could have dyed his hair , especially if he was on the run trying to conceal his identity or to hide the greys. Another way to tell them apart would be the ears CRW’s profile photo , his ears are rounded where as CW’s ears are more pointy. I f only we had a profile photo of the young man featured in the family photo
Charlie’s sister Gladys and her involvement with the communists may have had a more complex welfare story. There was an Emergency Housing Act and that ex-service people could get permission to occupy empty premises – is how I read it.
The one couple were having a baby and were sleeping in the basement of the mansion on a mattress. They intended to go to court to get the occupation of the mostly empty building. Though the rent was over £5/w so I imagine it was far too expensive for their income. HJ Crisp (the renter) seems to have had wealth in the 1920s with a chauffeur. But she spent very little time in the big empty house as a widow. I think Gladys may have observed the house as empty.
Donald Brooke Clay was trying to use this Act all over the city to try to get possession of a large empty property.
@js
I liked the Leika idea as the Webb (Weber) family had a German connection. My father-in-law who had been a slave worker in Nazi Germany came to the UK and said German cameras were the best. I believe he said the camera lenses were ground in a better way. Though he hadn’t been a slave lens grinder – he worked on a farm.
I don’t claim to be able to identify faces myself, that is why I used facial ID software.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yeec9-idmYE1mO6QJOLwXREn-EdSCQa3/view?usp=sharing
The communist Glady May Scott gave her address as carlisle street, st kilda and age as 40 so likely a coincidence, or she lied.
Louis Brodsky was divorced by his wife because of his gambling and keeping late hours. Not going to bed at 7 like Carl.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246814205?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
He was also in court about receiving money from Moscow to fund his communist club using the name Marlen.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131001756?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
Was his wealth from having 23 aliases?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/79247813?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
or gambling?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229406115?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221879702?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
or dodgy business deals
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15946484?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
Could Carl Webb have got caught up in his dodgy goldmine in May 1948?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/42583302?searchTerm=%22louis%20brodsky%22
NickP … do we know who tagged the blonde as Charlie? I’m thinking it was done in the last little while and hopefully not with DA looking over his or her shoulder.
Like most folks I know, their family albums don’t bother with writing names over the heads of the subjects.
OK Kids here’s something to try at home . Get 2 identical sized coffee cups and place one on the front of a table put the second up 30 cm’ behind it and 10 cm’s to the left. Now take out you phone and take a photograph from the front cup , at the edge of the table with both cups in the frame and drop the camera down a few degrees Now if you’ve followed these instructions correctly you will see that the cup in front looks taller and larger than the one behind. Thats angle and depth of field. Roy is forward of Charles and the photographer is shooting upwards.
That photo aint proof of nuthin but that doesn’t mean he is or he isn’t the right Charlie
David Morgan: ffs mate, I just told you for the second time with proof that Gladys and the same name communist were not identical, yet you just carry on as if not bothered with disclosures that get in the way of your theme. About time you started taking notice of what’s trending and what you you’ve missed. Got it?
@Peterbowes…..and I just informed you too about the Charlie tag having been of recent application, no doubt done for max effect before the show went to air. How do I know, pretty sure I found the altered earlier version on your site and so took a shot for proof of the deception ploy.
thedude727: in case you haven’t twigged yet, it’s only you and Peteb what’s arguing the toss of which Charlie’s taller or have you been chastised already. By the way I should know my Charlies better than most, having spent two score and ten years in their midst.
We could all watch the original photos in situ in the docu, and hear who wrote the tags, nothing secretive about that.
NickP .. Charles Richard Webb aside, I’m more intent on proving whoever Charlie is, he isn’t the Somerton Man.
Dude47 has inelegantly suggested we use coffee cups to prove his point about height differences whereas a more objective view of the photograph together with an examination of the positions of Roy and ‘Charlie’ in relation to the older folks is more enlightening.
I’d suggest Dude that you re-examine the photo of Roy standing against the Army height gauge and take careful note of the difference between the top of his diminutive head and what the 5’11” mark would be. Either that or come by my way where I can save you the trouble.
Peterbowes: you reckon it might be about time we headed back to West Terrace morgue for a look see on how the body swap might have occurred. I have a gut feeling that things started going wrong from day two or three about when the duty mounted plod ID’d the wrong body for Durham so that when the balls up came to light a cover-up was the only way to save face. Paul Lawson’s bust came later but he may have twigged when he put ‘original body’ in his job diary and made up some yarn about Mrs.Thomson [sic] to cover his own tracks. As for the bust hair and the DNA match, I’m not impressed and never was, especially in the way it all came together so neatly, even moreso with his inclusion of the Keane tie to seal the deal for world release.
Mentalist Derren Brown trains people to distract with the question “How high is the wall?”. So when you are caught shoplifting when asked a question you respond “How high is the wall?” [he was training people to shoplift to test their use of the distraction technique].
The PB has found a new distraction technique with “how high is the Charlie?”.
Again. Lividity at base of skull. Cut hands. Nothing on the bastard.
But we assume he died there because what? Sand in his trouser leg? Get real you idiots.
Who cares whether the blond dude is Carl “Charlie” Webb, Charles Richard Webb, Harry Rodger Webb, HG Wells, WG Wells or WG Grace? What I want to know is who the hell’s hand that is on the woman to the left of the woman in the white bonnet’s shoulder. If you blow the pic up it certainly ain’t the woman in the white bonnet’s hand as her arm passes under it. It don’t belong to the bloke in the dark suit behind her either, or the chap to his right with the bald bonce.
It puts me in mind of the bonny linen mill lasses of Belfast in the famous ghost hand photo: https://youtu.be/bOfbkDKyRtg – the so-called “creepy claw”.
And now we’re told that Doff was guilty of “habitual cruelty” in her second marriage and Geoff asked for a divorce. Oh dear! I dunno about Oz in the ’50s but Dr Google turned up several articles about the term in good ol’ Mississippi:
“Habitual cruel and inhuman treatment, including spousal domestic abuse.
Spousal domestic abuse may be established through the reliable testimony of a single credible witness, who may be the injured party, and includes, but is not limited to:
That the injured party’s spouse attempted to cause, or purposely, knowingly or recklessly caused bodily injury to the injured party, or that the injured party’s spouse attempted by physical menace to put the injured party in fear of imminent serious bodily harm; or
That the injured party’s spouse engaged in a pattern of behavior against the injured party of threats or intimidation, emotional or verbal abuse, forced isolation, sexual extortion or sexual abuse, or stalking or aggravated stalking,,,if the pattern of behavior rises above the level of unkindness or rudeness or incompatibility or want of affection.” (From hodumlawoffice website)
@JS not a fan of (deliberate) body swap theories. Also don’t really like things going wrong from day 2 or 3 (unless you’re saying they knew who he was then). Apply Hanlon’s razor – favour incompetence over malice (as others have reiterated many times, the early days of the investigation were mundane – and that’s why a lot of the investigation appears half-arsed – they expected the body to be claimed pretty quickly and they could just write it off as ‘just another stiff’ – people die).
I also don’t read much into ‘original body’ – I think ‘original’ is just a distinction between bust/mold and body (it’s redundant, but I don’t feel it’s unusual).
As for DNA from the hair in the bust, I’ll wait for the authorities. Aside from many possibilities of contamination (some less likely than others), there seems a whole load of confirmation bias reaching Webb. I’ll grant the pictures seem to bare a striking resemblance – but I used to think Mikkelsen (and others, if I’m honest) was a good resemblance too.
If height is the only concern, there might be explanations there too – sloppy measuring (again, at the time this is just a boring body – just like the one last week, and the week before) – that might be inexperienced lab assistant measuring to the toes (rather than the heel), or careless use of a tape measure. Not to sound like a borked record, but the cops dealt with a body about once a week (I think there was about 50 reported each year – will have to double check), and for most of them relatives came forward so there wasn’t a real call for precision in recording height (the person claiming the body would be a positive ID).
FWIW I agree with the Dude’s assessment that perspective in photos can be deceptive and we should be wary of judging the relative height of people from a photo.
I think Gladys’s outfit would be very much up-to-date with the fashion for the year, she attended a lot of Council functions and events, have been looking in Trove for summer frocks but haven’t found it yet. Heading to State Library later in the week to see what I can find …. probably won’t find anything, but hey, I’ll give it a go.
And I agree with JohnSanders, Gladys was definitely not that communist lady … our Gladys appears to have been of impeccable character, charming and quite lovely really.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224677751?searchTerm=frock%20paris%20spots
She is recognisable from the family photo in this 1946 article in my opinion.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204949714?searchTerm=fraser%20essendon%20L.W.%20scott
PB has found an elephant in your room David Morgan ..
PB: fifth column DA secondment and always been a security risk for mine. Certainly took your time puting it together but, better late than never what?
Some observations:
____________
How the ‘Webbs’ and the Reunion photos (Family-image.png) might be dated:
• Photo printing paper. If the print was made in the 1920s, this would be definitive.
If the 1930s, it could be made from an earlier negative.
• Comparison of identified individuals with dated photos of same.
• Estimated age of identified individuals in the photo.
• Fashion. If Sonya (see her comment above) knows Australian fashion during the 1920s and 1930s, her observation is significant.
• External documents, such as a family reunion mentioned in a dated letter.
• If negatives exist, other photos on the same film roll could date the photos.
• Position in the photo album, if the photos were arranged chronologically.
• Identification by someone who knew ‘Charles’ at the time.
(Unlikely at this date, but still possible.)
____________
From the ‘My Name is Charles | Somerton Man mystery’ video:
23:48
The photo album is very similar (perhaps identical) to a photo album my grandfather had, and would date to the mid 1960s to early 1970s.
23:59
The ‘Webbs’ photo appears a few pages into the album. It is not yellowed. The print edges are die-cut, consistent with a print from an amateur photo service. The name ‘Charlie’ appears in blue and the name ‘Webbs’ does not appear– these were changes made in the digital image Nick Pelling links to above.
24.35 page 1 of Album
A group photo appears on the left of the page. It looks like the Reunion photo is cropped from this print. The print is yellowed. It is die-cut and consistent with one from a amateur photo service. The clothing in the ‘Webbs’ and Family reunion photos appears identical and Roy’s collar is askew is both, indicating they were photographed on the same date but printed at different times. This means someone preserved the negatives, and one of Stuart Webb’s relatives may still have them.
The car is in the print on the lower right is the late 1930s, but not yellowed meaning it was possibly printed at a later date. If the sequence is chronological, there are few photos from earlier than 1935.
____________
Enlargement of the Family reunion photo (Family-image.png) shows indistinct focus with some indication of photographic grain, indicating an amateur camera.
The handwriting on the ‘Webbs’ photo is ball point pen– fountain pens strokes vary in width but don’t skip. Ball point pens didn’t come in until the 1950s, indicating the labels were added years after the photo was taken.
____________
If John Keane’s parents sent his clothing to Charles Webb after their son died in 1943, this does not indicate a close relationship between them. In those days, people believed strongly that things should not be wasted. As long as Keane and Webb wore the same size, the parents could have mailed them to a man they had not seen for some years.
____________
Previous commenters have wondered why the Webb family did not try to find out what happened to Charles Webb.
Consider Dorothy Jean Webb’s 5 June 1951 affidavit. While she understandably casts Charles Webb in a negative light, there is good reason to believe her affidavit is substantially correct. Her statement is sworn, parts were verifiable, and she had ample time to cool off after the separation five years earlier. She reports: ‘He would be perfectly reasonable, then without any apparent cause he would completely ignore people and quite often be rude.’ He did not have friends, behaved inappropriately, was suicidal, and suffered violent spells. His behavior became worse over time. Her description of her husband is consistent with a progressive mental illness.
Webb’s relatives may well have known him to be crazy and violent– and there was really nothing they could do to help him. If our speculation is correct, the reason Webb’s family did not search for him is simple– they might have found him.
PS> Thanks to Mr. Pelling for his work on these pages.
#Bob Nowak. My thoughts exactly !!! where does that hand come from ????? and who’s the creepy looking dude behind her in the black suit and hat? Very dodgy looking guy.
Also in addition to the issues previously covered those photos are over exposed , taken in direct sunlight and on uneven ground and that is why you’ve got hair looking lighter and differing heights. etc.
PB,
The guy that ID’d the GRU agents in the Skripal case has identified Carl as Charlie – the proof was also sent to Prof Abbott. I also used different facial ID software which also confirms the same.
milongal: don’t recall making mention of (deliberate) body swap theories, nor that tbey might have known who he was by then, in fact I don’t know how you might even have considered that possibility . As for whatever else you are going on about, a quick browse through your offering points to crap that has already been debated to the enth and then some. That being said, how’s about Dorothy, can’t recall now whether you were a fan like the majority of punters or a detractor like Behrooz who saw through her lies and who sadly paid the price for daring to say so.
Milongal old pal, much as I appreciate your comment where you agree with dude’s coffee cup theory, in order for your (and his) opinion to carry weight perhaps the pair of you could indicate how and where my assumptions with regard to the height of the two men, their closeness to the old folk and their distance from the camera fail your test of reasonableness… after all, we are at the objective end of the discussion here and there is little doubt abroad – yourself excepted Milongal – that the measurement of Webb’s body was indeed accurate and not a sloppy job by an un-named lab rat.
As a matter of interest, more precise measurements now show Roy to be more in the vicinity of 5’8”, making the difference between him and the blonde 3 inches.
Peterbowes: and it seems you’re back in league with the devil according to the man himself. GC has also just announced impending doom for all his detractors now hopelessly enmeshed in a Webb of fiction and conspiracy. Not to be outdone, ever alert and quicker than Flash Gordon the man, his alter ego Taffy Dai Bach (toilet) forsees foolish Derek Abbott being eshaton (from a great hight) which nobody can complain about.
Why are you all such gay lords?
Gordon Cracker Cramer is a sperg.
I personally milked my mother in law’s teats to get a sample this proving my children are the descendants of murderess Jess.
@ Bob & the Dude – the hand is Charlie’s! The question is, which Charlie?
@Bob Well spotted! There is another hand on the lady’s other side, I guess she is sitting on a man’s lap. Seems there was another joker in the family besides the puppet player.
@Jo There are hands behind the lady with the white hat 🙂
BobNowak the lady in the white bonnet is wearing a dark cardigan that’s just draping off her shoulder on her arm creating the illusion of a mysterious hand – she’s resting her arms on back of a chair too, but what’s in her other hand – it’s another illusion that it’s part of the older lady’s collar, but her dress has no collar – it looks like a fold out card or something. And on the grass between the older lady and Norma? there appears to be something on the ground, perhaps another illusion, but it looks like a heart, or a 3, and a picture of a face ….
@Poppins you’re right, its an optical illusion. The lady with the white hat is leaning on the shoulders of both women next to her, they are her hands.
@Jo yes you may be right.
I worked out the odd hand that you refer to Sandra, its the hand on the shoulder of the woman third from the left of screen which has me curious.
PB it aint a theory and more than 2 plus 2 equals 4 is a theory. Its just the way it works.
You can google how to photograph short people . Bob hawks PR staff were experts.
Get them side by side barefoot on even ground in a mug shot , then you may have something.
thedude747: tricky photography (and the occasional box to stand on) can even make Humphrey Bogart look the same height as Ingrid Bergman (i.e. in Casablanca). :-p
I’d stick my scrawny old neck out and say the women’s fashions in the group photo point to it being taken in the mid to late ’20s, very early ’30s at the latest. As Sonya points out cloche hats were all the rage then.
See for example:
https://www.vintag.es/2014/09/vintage-australian-fashions-of-1920s.html
Stuart Webb clearly states in Australian Story that it was his “nana” who wrote the names on the “gang of four” photo. Are we now calling him a liar and part of a conspiracy as well? He also states that the album belonged to Pa – ie Grandpa, Norman Frederick Webb.
Obit for Norman Frederick Webb on legacy.com via Geni (most names redacted):
“WEBB. – Norman Frederick (Norm). Peacefully at Jean Turner Nursing Home on July 21, 2008 aged 86 years. Dearly loved husband of Val (dec.). Much loved father [6 children, all married] and adored Pa [23 grandchildren] of…Stuart, Cristy and *** [grandchildren] …[Aunt] Julie [daughter] and ***[son-in-law]…Great Pa of 14 great grandchildren.”
@Poppins
If you zoom up to 500% you can see it deffo isn’t Mrs White Bonnet’s hand, although the one on her other side (clutching something) is. After due consideration I now believe it to be Thing from the Addams Family.
Bob Nowak: Sure I said it already but, if you want to see for yourself, that includes other doubters; the gang of four dog tags as depicted in the doco preview are not in the same place as shown in the full show. It’s clear as mud but you’ve got to be sharpish to get it on camera. If that makes Stuart a fibber then so be it, not for a lying prick like me to say eh?
Dude, that isn’t answering the specific questions … and it sounds to me like you don’t want to, or cannot.
…..you’ll note that ‘Webbs’ sign off is also missing from the botyo of the preview caption.
Pb Its more a case of already have.
Ive even given the players at home a simple activity that I’ve personally used to train photographers that helps them understand the rules.
AND on top of the facts (not theories) already outlined you’ve got photographer below eye level which changes everything depending on the precise anngle
AND the subjects are on uneven ground (the ground they’re standing on is not flat) so who knows if Roy is on a slight rise or Charlie is in a small ditch remembering we’re haggling over 3 inches.
And another thing for what its worth in my experience, short asses have a habit of elevating themselves in group photos ( go up on the balls of their feet) to compensate cos they don’t want to look like midgets in the photo as well as wearing the biggest heels they can get their hands on to give them an extra inch or two. It’s all part of the short man syndrome but thats another story.
Why does Bowes say that the piglets knew SM’s identity? If they had, why didn’t they do anything?
Dude, come to think of it, I remember not long after [cheap generic bald insult] came up with his extraordinary theory about hot cars and black marketeers when you decided that on the strength of a cut down knife, a slip of zinc, a small screwdriver and pair of scissors that Charlie Webb was in cohorts with that villain Prosper Thomson in boosting cars. Remember? You flogged that theory so often on my lowlife site I decided to give you a leg up and help you along, for instance; figuring the six pencils were used for their graphite to enable your car thief to gain easier entrance to door locks etc. I might have called that a favour.
What a partnership we were, your theory and my support. Remember?
Well, son, I have to tell you, and it might hurt a little, but I always thought it was a load of old unsupported rubbish … just as was [cheap generic bald insult]’s theory, now best forgotten
Nevertheless I’ll leave you now to the mad bats who currently inhabit the Cipher Mysteries attic .. splendid people in real life I have little doubt they are.
PB You need a massage , followed by a surf and big fat spliff cos you sounding all Christmas grinchy.
You asked for my opinion.
What did Jack Nicholson say to Tom Cruse ?
“you want answers?” “I want the truth” “you can’t handle the truth”
@peterbowes i would like to contest your claim as the link to Prosper as being bollocks. in all the scenarios that i have looked at i have no doubt in my mind that Prosper was indeed involved and consequently his wife. Additionally i am pretty convinced that he and his possy had a hand in the hit on Magnusson.
@thedude PB’s truth comes with a grain of salt
The bats have mainly migrated or gone into hibernation… And a few of us on here think that the Dudes contributions are quite splendid!
True that em, here’s hoping he rubs some of that salt into a margarita and takes a chill pill chaser.
@Em What I find remarkable is that there are several Norwegian names that pop up in relation to the SM case. Sailor C. Mikkelsen, Mr. Liabo (might be the sailor Henrik O. Liabo) and possibly K. Magnussen. It’s almost undoable to check crew lists though.
Thomson may have been involved by renting out his car.
em: are you by any chance referring to the disappearance of Keith Mangnoson or his poor child Clive. There was no “hit” as such although his wife Roma and one of the Largs local administrators mentioned unsubstantiated threats having been made and a masked man being seen cruising around town prior to the event end of May? 1949. As for your ‘Magnusson’, the only person of that name mentioned far as a I recall, was an ASIO agent on the trail of reds but he wasn’t subject of a hit either.
Em, you are right. Magnosson was terrified. His wife was terrified. He didn’t kill the boy either. Prosper and Jessica Ellen Harkness were responsible. This chameleon whorenychka was happy to change her identity to suit the day of the week or whatever fragrant knickers she’d climbed into that afternoon. There’s a wonderful motor place in South Australia that I visited twice looking for Jaguar – Daimler parts. Funny thing is, per my colleagues, one could never actually effectively purchase a part. They were either ‘unavailable’ or so eye wateringly expensive it was cheaper to order from the UK. The rooms were smoke filled and contained the worst people you’ve ever laid eyes upon.
There is another tool in Melbourne who caused the entire Australian importation scheme for older luxury cars to implode when he was found to be importing front and rear cuts of British vehicles and then having them welded back together.
Where you find car dealers you find the purest scum. Prosper Thomson was scum. Robin Thomson was chain smoking slimebag scum. Jessica Thomson was scum, and a whore. Adelaide is scumsville and full of six fingered murdering trash.
An update if that’s OK Admin?
Gordon Cramer is at it again, this time with his latest u/o panel pic comparisons. where he still insists on displaying his Charlie charicature created from the blurred original ABC promo clip. In other words it’s nothing more than a flaming zombie and bares no semblance to Charlie in the alleged Keane/Webb family album snap.
The Public Records Office of Victoria sent me a copy of Gladys Scott’s probate document as there had been an administrative error with my request (I was on a waiting list).
In short, Gladys died intestate in July 1955.
As she didn’t have a will, the money in Gladys’ bank account and the money from the sale of a Commonwealth Bond was divided up between husband and Webb relatives:
50% to her husband Leslie William Scott
50% divided between Freda Keane, Doris Martin, Carl Webb and the children of Russell Webb: Doris Tomlinson, Ethel Holland, Charles Webb and Norman Webb.
Beside Doris Martin and Carl Webb’s names is a note: “In hand”.
Interestingly, Brenda Webb is not included – so the Webbs and Gladys’ solicitors didn’t acknowledge her as legally being a Webb child.
The probate document indicates that on August 23 1956 (the date of the document) the Webbs believed that Charlie was alive (in Cottesloe?). The lawyers, H. H. Hoare, put out a newspaper advertisement in the Age on 22 October 1958, which Lachlan Kelly found and posted on Derek Abbott’s Identifying the Somerton Man Facebook page. It reads:
“Carl Webb, formerly of Cottesloe, Western Australia, Electrican – Would he or anyone knowing his whereabouts or death write to the undersigned who has information of benefit to Carl Webb in connection with the estate of his sister, Gladys May Scott.”
The amount of money bequeathed to Carl was 110 pounds, six shillings and ninepence – a reasonable sum in 1956.
So, it looks as though at least one of the Webb family had an address for Carl (“in hand”) but of course he didn’t respond. Did his lack of response trigger a missing person’s report? Or did the family simply think he had moved on or gone to ground? The distance between Melbourne and Cottesloe is similar to that between London and Moscow…Whatever the case, a number of family members knew that Charlie wasn’t able to be contacted. His share of Gladys’ money should have been subsequently divided between the other family members according to legal inheritance principles. Whatever the case, no dots were joined to the body on the beach, ten year prior, in 1948.
PS John Sanders – Charles Richard Webb seems to have been alive and well in 1956, though not a competitor in the Melbourne Olympic Games.
Peterbowes: another reason you gotta be wary dealing with the Advertiser on this divisive height discrepency issue, of which I had thankfully recused myself from becoming embroiled….As far as I can tell boyo, it was the Advertiser who first provided the world at large with a spot (est.?) height of 5’11 for SM on day one, this as opposed to The News (?) offering of only 5′ 10″. In any case police don’t seem to have been consulted nor several the responsible medical witnesses at the inquest. That includes J. B. Cleland (“height to be advised”), a total pass on the subject by Dr. Barb Dwyer (post mortem), as with others including Dr. (Death) Bennett (who’d been away) and Sir C. Stanton Hicks. Sure Gerry Feltus and Gordon Cramer, both experienced mortuary officers will tell us that the body was measured on the slab, though neither can recall who was tasked to mark the tape or advise the press on the score that very same day.
….Looks like your sweet (Pete) with the Advertiser. It was The News who gave the 5’11’ height tag on day one (Dec. 1) probably based on beach sand impressions. The Advertiser didn’t come on the scene until the day after with their false E.C. Johnston lead and as such no description, followed by the Geraldton Guardian with another 5′ 11″ perloined from The News no doubt. So take it easy and do your best to tidy up after thedude’s disloyalty.
We need to lovingly interrogate Jestyn’s family to find out what she truly knew. I suggest the ballroom of the Glenelg Stamford and a number of cipher mysteries sleuths, led by Nick Pelling. Obviously SAPOL would invite the family to attend. The presence of the bust, the bones and teeth and even the original body would be excellent tools to use in our questioning.
I believe that Cosmo was gifted the original body by Len Leane and the sexy Nonogenarian Paul Lawson at the same time Mr Mistry was fawning over his incredibly well developed geriatric body. I also heard from a Jewish friend that Mr Lawson kept the original brain in aspic and nibbled small portions of it on the anniversary of Carl’s murder.
I don’t mean to be obtuse, but if Roma and Prosper made love then isn’t it possible that Jenny has Thomson DNA through that assignation?
Accordingly, does it not remain possible that Robin was the baby of Webb?
Unless the Canberra people do DNA tests nobody will know. We need those coke cans.
Jo: then going by your own correct analysis and reasoning methodology, Carl Webb was also alive in August 23 1956, and to all intents, still in time to gain selection for the Melbourne Olympic sac race heats.
I’m bereft, Johnno, totes heartbroken, just when I thought I had acceptance into this elite brotherhood of like minds I was ruthlessly abandoned..
The hurt is immense. The future looks black. My pen almost stilled.
Almost.
…..knife weilding Dr. Dwyer sez his customer of Dec. 2nd was “Tallish”. So there you go, how long’s a piece of string?
Disloyalty Colonel Sanders !!!
I just call it as I see it and the evidence on the height stuff and the hair stuff’s flawed. It’s a grainy , over exposed 90 year old black white taken on the side of a hill. Pointing that out’s not disloyalty its just the facts Jack.
Ive got a good mind to recommend you for a court marshal Sanders !!!!
Petebowes: admit it, your pen is… always in your hand.
thedude747: imo, the photo evidence isn’t “flawed” so much as “only moderate quality”. Don’t be so hard on the Colonel, he’s got 400 pieces of chicken to fry every minute.
@Jo
The wording “formerly from Cottesloe” implies that the Webbs apparently knew that Carl had last moved to (and away from?) Cottesloe in the one and a half year after he left Melbourne. He also had a stack of envelopes in his suitcase so apparently he kept into contact. So they knew his whereabouts, but it seems for some reason Dorothy was not informed by the family where Carl was.
It may be worth looking for additional archival documents/notes of the solicitors’ office of H. H. Hoare in the City or State archives, like some are kept in my country. They may provide the full Cottesloe adress or other useful information such as the company he worked for.
I shoudn’t complain, getting promoted from expendable baggy arse forward scout to finger lickin’ bird Colonel cook in one ‘fowl’ swoop. All credit to Ayuverduca and his present day follow my leader adherents. Many thanks pheasant pluckers.
I came on here looking for an attic full of glib people with well paid jobs and mortgage free homes! Pete, are you pulling me leg?
John Sanders
Well well well, John-Boy – and the spats we used to have all those years ago make the current piss-dribbling from the likes of Pete Bowes et al look like Mother’s Day on Walton’s Mountain – it ain’t difficult to understand. The photo you see in Australian Story is the original (or a copy of the original) and the photo Nick provides (the one used in the doc preview) has been digitally altered for “effect” – a case of gilding the lily or giving the boys and girls in the design dept at ABC something to do to justify their astronomical salaries. The “Webbs” inscription can clearly be seen on the top right of the photo in the film and you don’t need to have the eyes of a hawk to see it – you just need to know how to use the pause button.
I see that on another thread you are are trying to revive that worn-out collaborative venture you enjoyed a while back with Steve H to dredge up poor Miss Sparrow as being a part of some nefarious plot. I have it on good authority that Steve H was a piteous imbecile who finally succumbed to his paranoid delusions and ended up jumping from the cliffs at Lulworth Cove in Dorset, England. His colleague/sometime lover Ann O – the Cotswold Carmilla – is set to inherit his ill-gotten millions. (Did she push him?)
Even I have to admit that some of the recent contributors here make you look positively charming and intelligent. Pete Bowes has now obviously become Gordon Cramer’s stooge (although even you yourself seem to have fallen for Cramer’s and Behrooz’s anti-Dorothy line – wait for Geoff’s affidavit!). In fact anyone outside the Cramer/Bowes/Pelling/Sanders cabal barely gets a look in these days except for their “useful idiots”. I would be quite happy to be included as one of chippy old Bowes’ bats in [cheap generic bald insult]’s belfry – honoured indeed, but only if he considers me as the “obvious intellectual” here! Personally I think Bowes himself has mice and rats in the loft (see JDdG – “They’re the things you can always explain as the wind in the telegraph wires”). Why is he obsessing about Charlie’s puny three inches? Mae West was similarly interested in some bloke’s seven inches. Each to their own.
Then you have some idiot who obviously thinks they are funny appearing under different pseudonyms such as “Eileen Wuornos”, “Batty Hatty”, “Planetta Janetta”, “Aydontsteponmyverruca” etc etc. You have to feel sorry for the poor miserable wretch. Actually I think they’re all Bowes during one of his “episodes”. If you think you’re hard enough!
I know you love a bit of Don McLean John-Boy, but it’s a bit rich to compare yourself to VVG! How could you have suffered for your sanity when you never had it in the first place? However I can say with all insincerity:
“But I could have told you, Colonel
This world was never meant for one
As beautiful as you.”
Nick: How come you let Fanny Spankie through but censored any mention of F***y Burney? What HAVE you got against early English novelists? Or were you getting her mixed up with Fanny Hill which I am told is rather rude – but then so were Defoe, Fielding, Smollett and Swift. Maybe you thought “epistolary” novels were all about penises. Well they aren’t, although I believe there is a Dick in ‘Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure’.
@Bob Nowak: Yes she did push me!
@Jo: No, I never did read ‘The Stepford Wives’ when I was alive, but there’s plenty of time to kill down here in between the roastings and the sessions on the rack so maybe one day, if the boss allows it. The only Ira Levin book I did read was ‘Rosemary’s Baby’ – in fact I’ve already met Roman Castevet in this godforsaken place. P.S. I find it hard from my memory of Cottesloe to think of it as a gambling mecca – Fremantle maybe, but Cottesloe was more than a bit sleepy despite its popular beach. Not convinced of Charlie’s baccarat connections!
“What, has this thing appeared again tonight?”
Ghostboy: as I’m sure your life experience tells you, not all Fannies are literarily equal. Contrariwise, some may well be more equal than others.
Bob Nowak
Just between you, me and the ghost of John Boy Walton, I’m thinking that we have suffered enough for our sanity and it’s high time the educated clowns set us free from our shackles and bondage. Only then might we finally be in a position to correct past mistakes and get this investigation back on track. This might at least enable long suffering voiceless SM devotees to see the constraints we were forced to endure and know that we were not to blame….In saying all that, I note that in your unflattering reference to the sadly recently departed H. (last name initial), you seemed reluctant to make any assessment on a very well spotted link between the Webb/Keane/Robertson/Bennet/Starling/Lockyer collective and re emergence of His Honour Justice Kenneth Hainsworth Kirkman an old friend of the Robertson? and Sparrow families. In 1955 he sat in judgement on a matrimonial causes matter between Geoffrey Athur and Dorothy Jean Lockyer which, appears to have been somewhat outside of his usual jurisdiction as S.A. Chief Magistrate and of course
former recent head of S.A. National Security (CIS). Guess we’ll have to let all that sink in with our sleep deprived but generally Keane team and await any stirrings away from their collective tedium.
You are indeed correct NP. Allow me to retract.
I retract any statements made in regards to the Colonel on this forum. He is not as I have previously suggested a flawed individual . He is merely of moderate quality.
My apologies for any offence causes to the. colonel and the KFC brand.
Kind regards
the dude
@ the ghost of Steve past
I had Charlie tagged as a Street Betting Man over in Cottesloe, regardless of how high he may or may not have been. I mean, what can a poor boy do, cause its always summer there and the time is always right for betting in the street, boy? I think references to Baccarat in those sleeping parts were probably an overzealous auto correct/auto type of references to the 70s Spanish boogie duo, Baccara… Baccarat is more of an edgy Melbourne thing.
Seriously, I do think there is a chance that Charlie was the nit picker of old and that the volatility of the 1947 baccarat scene, along with a reticence to honour Dorothy’s maintenance payments may have led to a long journey West on whatever the train was called (JS, Dude?). I can see the long reach of Joe Gavey et al at work as Charlie was very much in the Prahran neighbourhood. The need to lie low would also explain why the family were not alarmed by Charlie appearing to go to ground…
It’s funny, I went to a show last weekend, near St John Street, where Charlie once worked and around the corner from Joe Gavey’s place. There was an act where the kids were dressed as pre war gangster types, playing cards! Spinning across the table, doing slapstick… This story has been one where DNA has featured a lot. I feel that the stories of the characters we have encountered this year are very much in the DNA of this neighbourhood – for me its been largely about local histories with a bit of sleuthing and banter. Its also been a story of the global – with great researchers like you and others working from from a distance through cyber tools and space. Great resources such as Trove, National Archives Australia and the Public Records Office Victoria have made this kind of history from below accessible and possible wherever you are. I think that’s a great Australian story in itself.
It’s been a great journey, I don’t know that there’s much more to be discovered for now, only endless speculation which personally feels less engaging than what everyone has found in the various archives… Somehow I feel that Charlie would have enjoyed the chase (I think you were right about him tossing the Rubaiyat in the car, was it a la Dorian Gray, or the Story of a Handsome Cab? So many comments, its all a bit of blur…). Dorothy meanwhile, remains an enigma…
Peterbowes: admire your tenacity and never say die attitude. I do hope that you might give some additional thought, to other more proniunced physical barriers standing in the way of young Charles being a serious contender for jerry Somerton. For starters his age of just 31 years in 1948 does not conform to several 40 to 50 estimates given by contempory expert medical examiners. Then you seem to be saddled with a deformed foot plus varicus veins and additional scarring mentioned in service records pre dating 1948; none of which was noted during or after the autopsy. Wish I could help mate but, you’ll agree it’s a mountain to climb.
Jo/Sandra,
One could read “formerly of Cottesloe” in a different way. (i.e.) It mean that the extended Webb family in Melbourne hadn’t heard from Carl since, say, mid-1948. That is, some mail has been returned from his old address. Given his fragile health, possibly including personality disorder/s Carl may not have been a great correspondent. (Obviously, in that era, trans-Nullarbor phone calls were staggeringly expensive, for a crackly line, because they required the involvement of at least two or three manual operators. By the time that inheritance comes up, 10 years later, they have simply not seen those grainy, pixellated photos of his body in the newspapers (and I really can’t imagine a lid being kept on it, if one of Webbs did recognise him).
Ghost of Steve,
As a Perth resident of 40 years, with an interest in social history … the thing is, that Cottesloe in the late ’40s/early ’50s was demographically very different to the same area half a century later. Tim Winton somewhat captures that era of Perth in Cloud Street (although set in the West Leederville/Subiaco area). At that point the affluent suburbs were those along the north banks of the Swan River, and immediately west of the University: Dalkeith, Nedlands, Peppermint Grove and Claremont.
The drawcard in Cottesloe for Charlie would probably have been the plentiful boarding houses/short-term accommodation (of the sort that dominated beachside suburbs in Perth until the 1970s). It was then literally an outer suburb and during our winter months of May through to August, it was cold, windy and very rainy. (A somewhat counterintuitive fact that Perth’s classic Mediterranean climate = more winter rain than any part of Australia except Tasmania and Victoria.) So accommodation was far from expensive, especially for a skilled, self-employed tradie with no apparent dependents. The area was just north of the port (Fremantle) and associated industrial areas a few miles away in Mosman Park (which hosted Ford and Holden factories) and North Fremantle (later home to Bon Scott’s family after they emigrated from Scotland). Hence, Cottesloe was regarded as a lower middle class, if not working class area. In fact, it was such a solidly Labor-voting area that John Curtin was a long-term resident. (I think even before representing it as the federal Member of Fremantle). So … I would guess that quiet, regular baccarat, poker etc “schools” took place in private houses. (And definitely available after a 30 minute train ride, just north of Perth city centre, in the red light district adjoining Roe St.)
Literally … some pens work better than others, depending on the hand that holds them.
Nicholas, I do happen to think ‘Fanny Balding’ was my greatest creation after ‘Colonel Sanders’. It even got an eye roll from you. Apologies to Art Snyder with his pizza slice tie and obese wife with his n hers Kodaks round their necks. Spankie is a real English surname. So bite me, or spank me, as you will.
The divorces of Dorothy never seem to make the newspapers I wondered what the newspaper rule is on divorce announcements. Did it depend on a court reporter being there?
All I want for Christmas, is …….. a picture of Dorothy …. I really want to see a photo of Dorothy. Is there one out there, please, can someone share, would love to see it. Thanking you in anticipation.
What’s with Derek’s sudden interest in Highland dancing post 1950 and it’s connection to long dead Alice Robertson (photo 20s) and a Mrs. G. Lockyer of York? Guess it could be yet another clever diversion ploy.
John Sanders,
Do you have anything further in relation to whether Dr John Barkly Bennett had ever met his Victorian relatives and how familiar he was with them?
It would seem incredulous that he all of people would not recognise the body of Somerton Man as his relative Carl Webb, if indeed the body being brought in from Somerton Beach was indeed Carl Webb. It would make one ask, if the body of the Somerton Man was someone else?
Regards
Peter-Davidson
@jo before you go – your contribuition has been remarkable if i might say- why would anyone toss a rubaiyait in the car- who first came up with that theory?
@Jo
I always felt that we, as amateur sleuths and burrowers in the archives, were like a family – the Manson Family! Cipher Mysteries is like a cyber version of the Spahn Ranch. But I mustn’t get my Charlies mixed up.
Following your lead – and considering the title of this thread – perhaps one could imagine Charlie (Webb) singing the following couplet:
“Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name
But what’s puzzling you is the nature of my game.”
Maybe the game was baccarat after all. But if you were in my position you wouldn’t have much sympathy. And you have to love a bit of Baccara. Did you
know that ‘Yes Sir, I Can Boogie’ became Scotland’s unofficial anthem during the 2020 Euros? Even the boss here hated people burning disco records, preferring himself to burn disco dancers.
Don’t know I ever opined much about the Rubaiyat – it all seems a bit far-fetched to me. Now you have me speculating about the Dorian Gray link. I have bumped into the Canterville Ghost though – seems like a nice fellow, although perhaps a bit of a “stuffed shirt”. I can’t speak for the handsome hansom cab mystery but it does sound right up my street – “Victorian” Gothic indeed.
The wild (and circular) speculation always comes back when there is no new evidence to chew on, as do the trolls The problem is that this site is set up so that if you don’t check in for a couple of days you might well miss that important piece of info – which must be part of Pilchard’s cunning plan to keep the punters coming back, although I think he’s more like Blackadder than Baldrick.
@Furphy
You are probably right about Cottesloe. I lived in Mosman Park for a while, as well as Nedlands. I did read about the former’s industrial past although in the early ’80s most of that had gone. Scarborough was more like how you describe Cottesloe – full of surfies/druggies and so on, although looking on Google Street Maps they seem to have “improved” the area since then. I managed to escape Perth’s grey damp winter by heading up to the Kimberley and joining the “mungbeans” at Broome (as I posted about earlier) amongst other adventures.
Happy memories of passing the Dingo Flour sign on the bus down to the flesh pots of Freo!
#Jo I tend to agree with your thoughts. I was finding the various information coming to light in 30s/40s inner Melbourne far more engaging and considerably more feasible.
The nitpicker lead and Carls familial connection to Gavey, Carl being known to a cop who also happened to be around the baccarat scene , Carls known gambling habits and suggested history of violence.
You’ve even got none other than H C Reynolds (one time SM candidate at least in name) having his car nicked in the same neighbourhood that Carl frequented. A photo ID for the same name turns up 65 years later in Adelaide with the claim that it came of SMs body.
It seems very likely to me that Carl went of the rails in the second half of the decade (40s) and his brothers father in law could have thrown him some easy cash work in the evenings nitpicking.
We know Doff was chasing him for money and who knows who else. Its pretty easy to get of side in the illegal gambling scene. Maybe he got in over his head with the bookies so purposely shoots through covering his tracks. Would explain a lot.
“Shooting through” was very common practice for men of this era. Before computers and digital media a guy down on his luck , over his head in debt and who’s local bridges were burned would pull up stumps and head interstate to start up fresh. In pre computer days its wasn’t too tough to move on in such a way. Half the population of the Gold Coast was made up of these types in the 70s and 80s.
I see it likely Carl hopped on the TRANSCONTINENTAL to WA to escape his life in Melbourne and start fresh. Maybe even under a new name.
BUT things seem to have drifted off the reservation and into the grey zone where the likes of GC thrive and were back to conspiracies and body swaps.
Perhaps they’re right but frankly it all sounds like bs to me.
Peterbowes: if you compare Tbt’s two posted pics of Roy Webb I think you’ll find that there appears little between them in age. That being the case we might dare to presume that the pre inlistment group shots were taken not long before 1940 when Roy was 36. My take being that it was fairly soon after the bakery was sold (otherwise who was tending the shop) and shortly before Richard Webb passed in April 1939. A pfennig for your thoughts.
Has anyone found Norman Webb on NAA or was he another engineer who avoided enlistment?
Has anyone contacted the family for details on Norman and Charles Richard?
John Sanders .. I’d be more interested in knowing when the family photo was taken with the blonde Charlie patting Keane’s head .. I know the ABC’s show said it was in the twenties but that is a pretty broad brush.
And who do you reckon the young fellow in the shorts is ? Norman, maybe?
@ David Morgan – Norman Frederick Webb has an NAA file as he was in the RAAF, his file hasn’t been digitised – Service number 157584. You could apply to get it digitised for a fee.
I don’t really want to bother the Webbs as I’m sure this has all felt quite strange for them. Stuart, who seems like a good bloke, is on Derek Abbott’s Facebook page.
Nick
Your customarily gnomic, Orwellian musings about Fannies caused me to remember that whilst living in Darwin in 1983 there were three nightclubs – Fannies, Boobies and Dix. Gospel! Fannie Bay is a suburb of Darwin. Dix was inevitably the gay club; the priapic “i” in the logo would have done the Cerne Abbas Giant “proud”, the tittle above it a positive burst of orgasmic pleasure.
I also think that you could improve the tone of Cipher Mysteries by including a pornographic print in all your pieces, of the type seen on the Wikipedia page for Fanny Hill produced by Edouard-Henri Avril, such as ‘Les charmes de Fanny exposes’.
My own working theory about the Voynich Manuscript is that it is an early Quattrocento Milanese piece of erotica-cum-cookbook produced for the private library of Filippo Maria Visconti. Sort of Fanny Cradock (sorry) meets ‘The 120 Days of Sodom’, but so depraved and diabolic that those who have successfully translated it have died of shock. A combination of aphrodisiac recipes, sex magic and beauty tips for virgins and catamites.
Is Fanny Balding Clare’s sister?
John Sanders
You really mustn’t keep confusing me with the late Steve H! We did work together (although we were never lovers) and as executor of his will I am busy sorting things out so that it can go to probate. I won’t lower myself to reply to any allegations made by the person or persons pretending to be Steve’s apparition, or by the odious Bob Nowak.
‘Twas we who had the original discussion about the Sparrows, Dunstans, Bennetts et al.
Concerning K H Kirkman I’m sure you are correct that the Sparrows and the Kirkmans were well acquainted.
For a ref to his position as Deputy Master of the Supreme Court see:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232779986?searchTerm=%22kenneth%20hainsworth%20kirkman%22
Hence his sig on the Order Absolute provided to DA by Richard Dutschke. DA states that he’s trying to obtain the whole file.
According to Ancestry, Kirkman was :
“Born in Rose Park, Adelaide South Australia on 05 Apr 1896 to David Kirkman and Amy Betsy Ekers. Kenneth Hainsworth Kirkman, had 2 children. He passed away on 23 Jul 1982 in South Australia, Australia.”
What does all this prove Colonel?
Ann O…Proves that Ancestry if fulla shit for one. Toothless Kenneth spent his last days in a posh ville at Claremont W.A., presumably laid on by the Lockyers for services rendered. He was cremated at Fremantle cemetery, Palmyra according to FAG.
Peterbowes: same day old son you can tell by identicle togs being worn by all four Webbs in both pics for starters. See my misplaced accompanying post on TS.
@Ann O…If only your late lamented/demented alter Steve H (real name initial) hadn’t hounded Behrooz to the point of distraction with his Gordon Crameresque diatribes. If only his once fawning CM devotees hadn’t deserted him enmass, we would by now most assuredly have full details on the ’55 divorce to ourselves for deceminating. Instead we find ourselves totally at the whims of Derek Abbott’s wont to share morsels of Richard Dutschke’s first offerings along with the rest.
Peterbowes: just as well you don’t have to banter to arseabout whims of our American cousins these days. If so some might not see what all the fuss is about with Derek’s having used the word cardigan for SM’s brown knitted pullover. Why so you may ask. Well, I wasn’t myself aware until just now but, it seems our cousins are quite at ease referring to pullovers, jumpers, sweaters and similar enclosed coverings as….CARDIGANS and that’s no joke boss. No need to mention this to Feltus, it might be too much for the old suit to handle, on top of your breaking news that Somerton Man was afterall a 31 year old Melbourne nit picker cum partime car thief covered in scars, bulging variscose veins and also crippled with muscular distrophy and stuff BD never heard of. Who’s this Nick dud that dares to call you a dummy?. I’ll have his guts for gaiters!
@Ann O…It also seems to show that A.G. H.G. Evatt could be in two places at once. I can’t see how he had the time nor inclination to elevate Nadina Bennett’s future Godfather? into the Supreme Court in 1945 when the ‘red ragger’ was running for top office at the newly formed United Nations in NY. Besides Ken Kirkman was still serving as National Security Chief for S.A., remaining in said post til the early ’50s and proceeded recall back to his pre war job as Chief Stipediary Magistrate in and for the said state. That indeed might also have disqualified him from overseeing divorce petitions such as Lockyer v Lockyer in ’55, these being of Commonwealth jurisdiction and not state. Should you care to inquire further you’ll find that the Honourable gentleman in the 70s described himself as being a humble retired SM.
JS, how old do you reckon g’dad is?
@ PB – if you request & pay for digitisation of Norman Webb’s NAA service file there may be a photo. You could see if he’s the young lad at the front & use him to try and date the photo… Grandma & Grandpa are difficult to date as older people looked more like older people then and we haven’t seen any other clear photos of them… Norman Webb’s Service number is 157584
PB, 73 in the photo, the gathering was likely in celebration of g’dads birthday. A month later on 2/4/39 he was no more. That sound about right by your reckoning?
A psychiatrist would have a field day in this thread right now. She could start a support group for men who want to win a pissing contest with Dr Abbott. There’d be a wait list.
PB: omitted to mention that G’dad is intentionally posed dead centre of the family gathering. Happy 73rd birthday GroBvater are the words on everyones lips.
@thedude Dr Abbott is a narrative controller and trigger happy with the cancel button once questions get too close to the main and obvious suspects. …..and how many years have they hung there side by side in the bosom of the family of the crook that robbed him. i’d be rolling in my grave
Wasn’t it confirmed by the family that Norma was in the family photo …. I thought that was posted here a while back. Born November 1925, she looks about 3 in the photo, taken in the Summer of ’28/’29 one would think. Maybe the question is not how high are Roy and Charlie, but how high is the little tot Norma, to date the photograph.
@ Poppins – the young child could also be Russell’s daughter, Ethel Webb, born in 1926…
@ Poppins- if the young woman next to Eliza is Doris Webb, she was born in 1919. I would say that she is in her teens, vs ten years of age here. Russell’s wife Amy – ie the children’s mother, died in 1929. I imagine the Webbs would want to see and visit their grandchildren. Things must have often been very hard for the Russell and the children. We are all working from two images and limited information!
Too true @ Dude – this shouldn’t be a pissing contest! Those Professors did some remarkable DNA work that most of us who only scraped through form 3 science can’t even understand. I am happy that lovely wife can now get rid of those paintings.
Probs too much info here. There are ways that a girl can win a pissing contest against a bloke any day if its about height up a wall. You just need a full bladder with a bit of force and to redirect the flow – I guess that’s physics isn’t it, so maybe I did learn something science wise? I wouldn’t do it these days and the bladder isn’t what it was back in form 3, that’s what having kids does.
Sorry, Mr Pelling, I have actually seen worse on this page and a sheila needs to call it out once in a while! Psychiatrists are very busy and expensive – I don’t reckon that support group would be a rewarding use of all those years of study and I also don’t reckon it would qualify for Medicare nowadays. Apart from that Dude, I think you are one of the most sensible ones on here.
I see GC has published “conclusive proof” that Carl is not the Somerton Man. Apparently SM another Carl Webb and the head heights in a photo taken of the top half of 4 people clearly on uneven ground is “conclusive proof’
(They could be on an offing staircase fin that photo for all we know but lets not lets the facts get in the way of a good story)
If thats “conclusive proof ” I shudder to think about how many people old GC may have sent down when he was a copper.
Look at the family group photo and it all makes perfect sense to be late 20s as reported and the individual identified as Carl looks a fine fit to me.
The three Webb boys are all at the back (with Carls head hight higher than anyone else but well ignore that ) a late 20s date fits perfectly which has Carl and Roy aged mid 20s ( looks right) Big brother Russ in his mid to upper 30s, (looks right) and Freda the oldest being in her early 30s and G Keane pushing 40 looks right. Old mom and pop early 60s look right as well.
The other two Webb girls in their 20s look right as well.
The individual identified as Carl matches well enough for mine for age height and facial features taking into account the elements (sun on his head) over exposed and grainy image.
Do GC and Co just want to own the narrative or just ignore the facts and cherry pick the evidence in order to win the pissing contest with DA?
A bit of both I reckon
Thanks Jo, much appreciated, so the little tot remains unconfirmed. I would have bet the farm on the lady next to Eliza being Gladys with her husband and in-laws – couldn’t get to library last week due to unforeseen commitments but can probably pop in there this week – I’m almost certain there’ll be a picture of Gladys and Leslie in the Gazette that’s not online. The search continues ……… cheers
PB: you know when your time is about up when you’ve gotta be told how to suck eggs after a decade plus of devotion to duty (metaphorically speaking one hopes).
Dude, given CW was an experienced tradesman used to having a variety of tools to use in his profession as an instrument maker, how would you explain him having such a set of primitive items to boost cars?
You can’t buy a car boosting kit at Bunnings PT and you hardly wanna walk the streets at night with a tool belt. You’ve gotta improvise.
thedude747: X3292=SFA..X3632= Jo @ 90A..OK
….X3632 = NFA2..X3639=AOK.
Dude, that’s a true indication of the glib answers you are known for and think might satisfy the less experienced of the participants in this forum.
Not me though … would you like to try again?
Gordon Cranmer proudly identifies that Webb was a seaman and then produces…. DRUM ROLL…. Somebody else’s seaman’s ID card! Are we sure he wasn’t a traffic warden in the UK? Shades of George Roper.
Im not your dance monkey PB and it ain’t glib It’s the facts bro car thieves don’t walk the streets at night wearing tool belt and or carrying a tool kit do they?
Maybe they do up your way in Byron cos everyones to stoned to give a shit.
As for you Colonel RUOK? You seems to have lost the ability to speak.
Peteb: I see what you mean my man, insincerity speaks volumes. Glib = Dude & dud = 747…others can say as what they like, you’re still in the game no sweat!
Do I get to wildly speculate a date?
I’m going for Sunday 15/3/1931. Saturday by all accounts was going to be a dodgy Melbourne day, but Sunday was fining up. Richard August Webb was in celebration by reaching his pension age (65).
The Australian age pension was introduced in 1910, superseding the Victorian age pension introduced in 1900, for men reaching 65 and women 60 for those that had Australian residency for more than 25 years.
Lurch: far as we know old Dick was still running his business up until early ’39 and although of retirement age in 31 would not have been eligible for the pension in light of his income which would likely have exceeded the means tested threshold. As you say wild speculation, that ain’t worth contemplating sometimes.
Q Christmas cracker joke for fellow Brits – our colonial cousins can get stuffed, ha ha. What football team do us ghosts support?
@Ballfondler69, Fanny Spankie, Sally up my Alley. Katie Hopkins etc etc, the Gal with a Thousand Faces (all of them ugly):
You are a crashing, joyless, sexually frustrated, anti-Semitic, tedious bore. You make John Sanders and Peter Bowes look like Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ. Everyone else here might be too cowardly to call you out but as I’m dead I don’t damn well care. See you down here in hell!
@John Sanders:
What a ludicrous claim that I hounded Behrooz to distraction. You have trolled every single person who has ever contributed here, especially if they identify as a woman.
On October 17 you posted the following comment on the ‘Dorothy Jean Robertson/Dorothy Jean Webb…?’ thread, after Behrooz’s drop of the divorce papers.
“Behrooz: at 8.54 pm 19th August on this thread…you posted to Pat with the details of Dorothy Jean Webb nee Stratford’s Vic. birth registration for 1920 which listed her parents, namely Alice and Jnho…Do you deny the post; if so then you have been framed by a devious con artist and that will not bade well with Nick Palling (above post name referal [sic] or other fair dinkum researchers.
With all due respect it’s the likes of Pat, Misca and your good self seem to be creating all the confusion now, along with tassive support from Peter Davidson. who is not deserving.”
Note the appalling grammar and spelling – tassive? A Joycean portmanteau word perhaps? The old cliche comes to mind. You’re less Ulysses and more Useless.
Then we had the Bruce Bennett/Behrooz mix-up debacle which left you with an omelette on your face. My own polite, well argued and elegant (but unlike most commenters, not fawning) responses to Behrooz’s totally unwarranted attack on me didn’t begin until after your interventions sonny, so I’m demoting you from Colonel to Second Lieutenant.
I really enjoyed Sandra hauling you over the coals and you were uncharacteristically flustered by her intervention. YOU correcting someone’s spelling! It’s like Donald Trump telling someone not to provoke a riot. You will also end up down here, and the boss has some very special, er, plans for you. See you soon.
A Wraith Rovers.
Perhaps Carl believed the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam was about his life:
Football:
The Ball no Question makes of Ayes and Noes,
But Right or Left as strikes the Player goes;
And He that toss’d Thee down into the Field,
He knows about it all – HE knows – HE knows !
Did he seek revenge on the player that broke his leg playing football?
or Dorothy?
Here with a Loaf of Bread beneath the Bough,
A Flask of Wine, a Book of Verse – and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness –
And Wilderness is Paradise enow.
ss footbal was a part of his life in his 20’s and early thirties but don’t think that it was connected to Rubaiyat. I think he was in a circle of Rubaiyat fans , whether that included Jo Thomson or not is unknown. what would be helpful would be a ‘what we know up to now’ uncensored, warts and all, recap of CW life up to his demise. gatekeepers aside, all theories are welcome.
We don’t know what Carl did after studying at Swimburne. He may have worked for his dad until 1938 but I suspect not. He then probably worked for the red point drill company from perhaps 1941 to 1947.
@thedude747:
The late Steve H and I have been fighting a losing battle here trying to defend DA (and CF) for a while now. You don’t need any psychiatrists to tell you that these attacks are down to pure jealousy. I would include Pelling in that judgment.
Meanwhile I don’t understand your craven attitude to Pete Bowes – he is as bad as Cramer, if not worse. At least Cramer isn’t a troll (although he does threaten to doxx people). Tomsbytwo is a waste of cyberspace.
The pair are in cahoots anyway. A couple of quotes from Cramer’s own site:
“What is very new and important relates to the work being done by Pete Bowes on Tomsbytwo.com.
Pete had been focusing on the image of the family group which included Roy and Carl Webb. Pete first noticed that the two brothers, though standing slightly apart, were of very similar heights. He was right about that although we disagreed by an inch 🙂
We have been cooperating but I want to make it very clear that Pete’s insistence on the heights being the same for each of the brothers is what caused me to revisit this post and others dealing with the Merchant Seaman Carl Webb. Pete by doing his work has confirmed that the man Carl Webb shown on the crew lists was 5′ 8″ in height and could very well be Charlie Webb. We had the right name and the right age for the man but were missing any kind of confirmation of his height. Full credit to Pete for finding that missing piece of information.” (14 December 2022)
“In the enhanced image above [The Gang of Four] you will see Carl, Roy his brother, and their parents. It is known from Roy’s service record that his height was 5′ 8″ and in this image as first spotted by Pete Bowes of the tomsbytwo.com blog, both Roy and Carl appear to be the same height, that is 5′ 8″. Full credit to Pete for that smart piece of work.” (15 Dec 2022)
A plague on all their houses say I. As for Mildred Roper aka Ally from Alstonville etc we all know it’s Bowes in pseudonymous drag – Alstonville is next door to Ballina. There isn’t a psychiatrist on earth that could help that pathetic specimen during one of their psychotic breaks.
Didn’t one Steve H proudly come in here writing about how he used to be a big standover man, smashing heads in left right and centre? Did he not then melt down and leave? Or is that another of Cramer’s Cretins I’m imagining? If so I think he may be the case study for Pete Bowes and the missing three inches. We just found them. Go hang at BigFooty with the true intellectual genius types.
I miss Pat and Misca! Some of these blokes are Ulysses and it’s getting snarkier by the inch. Pete, if you really want to hot an FX you can borrow one of my stainless nail files – just ask for me at Toes R Us.
Its not so much Craven re PB Anne O in as much as I feel sorry for the old hippy.
The dope along with the magic mushy’s have messed up his head.
But yes I did see the GC reach around and it made my skin crawl.
Yes thats right SM is not the Carl Webb with the established DNA link along with the Keane link , the photos including the Swinbourne footy team which is clearly our man. NO NO NO
Its another guy altogether a merchant seaman who also happens to be called CARL WEBB !!!!
John Sanders:
Speculation not worth contemplating 🤔
Like your stinker about the photo being a month or two before meeting his makers. Geez. He’s having a 73rd birthday party? 60 maybe, 70 absolute tops if he’s still looking young, but doesn’t fit the others in the photo does it?
Sorry, I can’t make it fit where you are going with it, and I don’t suspect your contemplations are worth the 20.9% O2 we breath either. But it is a fun game.
Of retirement age would fit. I doubt we are dealing with an assessment of assets, superannuation or the my dot gov dot au website back then. He was probably hands off letting the boys run it with pops dropping in from time to time.
@T.E.E (S.H) … not up to your usual low standard of smear & smut though your spacing be neat and tidy as of old. I see you’re still reeling even, in your not so restful state from my 105 sparrow hawk direct hit on Moseley St. which you might have seen coming had you been on to my Bennett leads. As for poor badly used then shat on Behrooz; yes I did get a little terse with him but only in defence of his attack on my integrity. Being true to the nature of the man he apologised, as only a man would do. Now vis-a-vis those patently false claims of my disrespect towards the fairer sex, not always one sided in my considerable experience. This sorry saga, initially restricted to a coven of inhouse fanny munchers later included urgers and like dudes, perhaps seeing their chance to take over with few to man the fort. Give the crones their due their plotting & brewings came off like the proverbial brides panties and we, the few are left with our duds down and no gash in sight. Ah, such is life, we’ll take our troubles in hand to ease the pain as only real men know how and in muffled silence no less. You might smile being left to rot in hell and all but, rest assured this half baked and souless old scout may come a calling real soon so best ‘Be Prapared’.
@Deni the obsession with inches is so ingrained in the male psyche you would well leave it alone….anyways wasn’t it 2 inches the other day now 3 inches, it keeps on growing ……what is it 5 11 , 5;9 5;8 ….i aint got time for pb’s bs and ask he gets back to more interesting pursuits . His theory of who ever the man is is not the man everyone says he is because.,,, ?? Futility aside however, the detection of lead in CW’S hair can be put down to the fact that he dyed his hair which is not uncommon for 48 hence why no one recognised him.
~… and he who stares to long into the abys…..
I think our lady? Deni doth protest far too much in her ever so guarded rebuke of her mentor and confidant GC. Take Gordon’s semen for instance; Deni knows and GC knows she knows because he groomed her, that his own Carl Webb ID can be used within certain limits as a means of casting aspersions on claims of veracity. If ye be wanting to see un-Deni-able proof of the old crone’s links to Cramer as her long time confidant confessor, check her very latest diatribal rebuke of moi over at Big Footy….ps: no actually you can’t, the post in question has now been docked or modified to exclude said evidence of collusion…worth reading nonetheless just to get a feel for this Jezebel (and her fellow crone). NB @ bigfooty.com-Beaumont kids Nov 20 2022.
CFC: in the true spirit of fairness to thedude, which I do find somewhat irksome, can you show me proof, as Peteb insists, that Carl Webb was in possession of the nurses ROK copy or that he was known to be a reader of Omar Khayam and wrote poetry himself. I certainly never saw any of his writings nor heard of anyone apart from the cheese’n kissess who was familiar with his sombre toned polms. Old suit lesson sez, If you can’t manage to come up with proof or something that might pass for it, then the pudding didn’t exist…or summit js
Looked through one microfilm of the Gazette today, 1925 to mid 1927, no Gladys or Leslie in sight, but a lot of dress and fashion advice with diagrams of current fashion in each issue. Will look at another reel in the new year …. a lady who can only be described as, err, shall we say unhinged, was waiting to use the computer I was using and so I decided half an hour looking was more than enough. Gladys is there somewhere, I just know it …………
Caz … you I can relate to. I have a mate whose lifelong interest is old cars, he finds them, rebuilds them and drives them. He also likes to talk about them when we are all gathered in a coffee shop at Avalon after a boisterous session in the surf … and given there are eight of us and one of him he’s a bit outnumbered when it comes to banter … in other words, when it comes to his reaction when he’s had enough of us his response is invariably ‘Youse can all go and get rooted!’
Know want I mean?
@Poppins Your wish is my command: see the Facebook conversation regarding possible Dorothy Jean Robertson photos. The Facebook page is limiting posting and commenting till 4:10PM 17th January 2023 (at least I am limited).
When I lived at the flats in the same city as the Oval I witnessed the abduction of the girls. I was there at the time with my mother, who had three families in England and ten names, and then I realised the offender, whom I could not see, was someone I did not know. My mother called to me ‘Janet, did you see that?’ And I said ‘no’, and she said ‘me either’ and we went back to watching the Channel 10 news coverage of the event. Based on this evidence and Bigfooty I think I definitely know what happened.
Another possible date – this one linked to a past find by Pat
November 1933
Doris and Charles Webb were presented with certificates for becoming Sunday School teachers:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11715013?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1933%2F11%2F27%2Fpage%2F524271%2Farticle%2F11715013
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/83548490searchTerm=prosper%20mctaggart
i once knew a guy awful con man was renting a flat when he decides to sell the flat out right , pockets the money and leaves the nextday
Lets talk about Mr PROSPER MCTAGGART THOMSOM/THOMPSON he got away with it all his life
@poppins i am not sure why DA insists in pursuing poor doff , leave her alone she is not a master mind murderer…..another red herring …
I’ve always been an agnostic in regard to the “vehicle theft” hypothesis (or hypotheses) suggested in connection to SM/Carl Webb et al. I mean it’s possible; I just can’t see any conclusive evidence.
In any case, the article below may be of interest. A 1947 piece from The West Australian concerning an epidemic of m.v. theft in the Perth metro area. Note the suggestion from Insp. Lewis that it was impractical, at that time, for thieves to move cars across the Nullarbor. However, I think Lewis is a little disingenuous here: as the article makes clear, particular components were being targeted, as well as motorbikes; also the suggestion that the latter were being rebuilt/mixed to disguise them. i mean … clearly also easier to engineer thefts with just enough time for smaller items to be crated up and put on a freighter at Fremantle or a goods wagon at East Perth Station, just before it departed for Adelaide. (Trans-Nullarbor trucking not being much of a thing at the time and interstate air freight being so expensive it was more lucrative than organised crime.)
*VEHICLE THEFTS*.
MANY MOTOR CYCLES
NOT FOUND.
Stolen Car Stripped.
At least seven of the many motor
cycles stolen in the metropolitan
area during the past few weeks and
still untraced by the police. The
epidemic of vehicle thefts has be-
come so serious that the Chief of
the Criminal Investigation Branch
(Inspector C. H. Lewis) has been
compelled to assign a detective ex-
clusively to the task of locating
missing machines and preventing
the theft of others.
Inspector Lewis said yesterday
that he did not think that there
was any possibility of stolen ma-
chines being taken to the Easters
States and sold there on the black
market, as the distance overland was
too great. It has been reported that
there is a regular industry
in the theft of vehicles in the
Eastern States and the sale of them
over the border. He is not overlook
ing, however, the possibility that
stolen machines in Perth may be
either dismantled and used for spare
parts or rebuilt so that they become
unrecognisable.
Last week a long list of missing
motor cycles was published and
since then several more have been
removed, but only two have not
beep recovered. They are both
Triumph machines. One is maroon
coloured, No. 3038, the property of
Arthur Wilfred Mawby, of 1031
Wellington-street, West Perth, which
was taken from Pier-street, city, last
Thursday and the other is a black
and chrome machine, No. 6587,
belonging to Joseph Enos Watson,
of 55 Robinson-street, Claremont,
which was removed from Gugeri
street, Claremont, on Sunday even
ing.
A study of the thefts committed
since the beginning of the year re-
veals that most of the machines
have been taken from the main city
streets and that most suburban of
fences have been in Claremont and
Victoria Park.
The Oldsmobile truck which was
taken from a Mt. Lawley garage
on Monday night was recovered
yesterday in Bayswater, in an un
damaged condition, but the owner
of a car which was stolen in Cot-
tesloe, on Tuesday night was not
so fortunate. Mr. L. E. Hopkins,
of Marmion-street, Cottesloe, re
ported yesterday morning that his
car had been removed from outside
his residence. Later in the day he
located it in Marine-parade, Cot-
tesloe, stripped of three tyres and
tubes and one wheel.
(The West Australian, 13 March 1947, p. 9.)
Curio, thank you for the Dorothy photo “Christmas Wish”, had a look over on the Facebook page ….. I’d love for that to be our Dorothy ….. ah, so the Scottish dancing Mrs G. Lockyer turned out to be an Olive of 46 Golding Street, goodo. There are a surprising amount of dancing Dorothy Robertson’s around the country – worth looking into though, good on ya, I’ll see what I can find too. Love the photos of Dorothy’s parents too, they both look remarkably similar don’t they. Cheers
Ah, brings back memories from my childhood Irish dancing lessons, “kick, hop back, jump one, two, three, four”, lol, had forgotten about that.
Em – fair enough, but Dorothy is part of the Somerton man story and needs to be investigated to clear her name or end speculation at least, there are too many unknowns and variables to lay the Dorothy story to rest at this point, in my opinion. The full divorce document DA is trying to obtain could provide a lot more answers, so I think it’s important to see what that reveals, “habitual cruelty” is certainly an interesting allegation to be made against her.
I’m coming to a view that the photographs are of Charles Richard Webb and that they relate to the Webb children’s involvement in the Sunday School movement.
https://www.emelbourne.net.au/biogs/EM01447b.htm
The article found by Pat mentions the John Smyth prize – Smyth was the former principal of the Melbourne Teachers’ College, he died in 1927.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11715013?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F13%2F1933%2F11%2F27%2Fpage%2F5
Sunday schools weren’t simply a religious thing – they were popular as a means of moral and physical education, social activities and also as a supplement and support for formal education. I can imagine the Webb children being encouraged to become involved – Russell was a widower and Pat has said previously that the children were raised by his wife’s extended family. Photos and games such as “rounders” were popular at Sunday School picnics. The group shot looks like a semi professional photograph. This would also explain Charles’ “puffy shirt” as the Dude put it. Roy may be present as his parents’ driver.
Possible dates based on this idea would be November 1933 when Charles and Doris Webb received their Sunday School Teacher certificates or December 1934 when there was a huge centenary celebration in the city, with smaller local gatherings before and afterwards.
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/6080ef772c0379d4246f6960
Both of these dates would fit with the boy at the front being Norman Webb. I’ll request a digital copy of his NAA Service file so that we hopefully have another matched image to work with…
@ David Morgan
Re workplaces:
As you’d know, the only corroborated workplaces are the bakery and the Red Point Tool Company.
I’ve written a few times that I think Charlie worked at Kelly and Lewis, Engineers and Pumpmakers, due to their proximity to the bakery and observing that the company built a substantial factory there in the early 1920s. They employed electrical fitters and also took on lots of apprenticeships (from their newspaper scrapbook). I went through their archive boxes at Melbourne University. Unfortunately there weren’t any employee records from the 1920s-30s, only for earlier periods when the company was based on Bourke Street, in the city.
A few interesting things:
– the owners were also involved in a gold mining venture – Maude and Yellowgirl
– they made lots of equipment for the mining industry, including BHP
– there were frequent quiet periods and lay offs during the 30s (I’ve posted local newspaper articles on this previously) – these periods coincide with “Charles Webb of the Bakery”.
– they were involved cars parts manufacturing – one of their clients was Hugh Stanley McLaren who invented a rotor valve. Hugh Stanley McLaren raced against Derry George of Bromby Street (George was an early racing car driver, he fixed and sold cars from the rear of Bromby Street).
– In 1935 Hugh Stanley McLaren was involved in a land dispute with some people at Windsor Crescent, Surrey Hills/Mont Albert – he tried to buy some land, the seller reneged and kept the deposit (its all on Trove).
– In 1946 there is an engineer called Webb living at Windsor Crescent, Mont Albert at an address from which a ute is sought and cars are sold (found earlier on here by Mary).
I’ll leave it to others to craft a narrative from this, if there is one…
There is probably an employment gap between Springvale and the Red Point Tool Company, which was established in 1940. Charlie lived with the Webbs at Glenlyon Road Brunswick in 1940. Perhaps it was him who advertised a reward for a lot “travelling certificate” which we hypothesised was a Freemason’s certificate. I wrote to the Freemasons asking if they had a members’ index card for Carl Webb which might provide employment information. I didn’t receive an response – perhaps you could try?
One option for 1939/40 employment could be Australasian Wireless (AWA) where Jack Keane had worked as an assistant electrical fitter prior to becoming a mechanic? This would segue well with Charlie’s move to describing himself as an “instrument maker”.
I also wonder if Charlie met Doff in Brunswick as her family had lived there? There was a notice in the newspaper on 13 April 1940 asking her call at 23 Union Street Brunswick for some news (found by Pat). 23 Union Street was probably a boarding house, there are a few naturalisation notifications associated with this address.
Final words on this post:
In his probate deposition for the estate of Charlie’s sister, Gladys May Scott, Leslie William Scott wrote:
“The said deceased left her surviving myself, this deponent, her widower and her sisters, Freda Keane and Doris Martin; her brother Carl Webb; the children of her deceased brother, Russell Webb:-…..”
This infers that the Webbs really didn’t know that Charlie had died, probably committing suicide just after the fifth anniversary of Jack Keane’s death on 29 November.
Had he asked around and tried to phone and/or visit Sister Thomson for some ether to help him along?
Was Charlie’s anonymity an act of consideration for his family?
So much we’ll never really know!
Sorry, a few typos in the previous post!
Another last word:
On photos – there could be another option, if there is a clear copy of the 1931 Springvale Football Club Premiership team photo, with names, there is a tall, fair-ish unnamed player in the back row… I’ve tried the current iteration of the club with no luck!
@ Poppins, yes you are right habitual cruelty (and inhumane treatment) is grounds for divorce and that can be from constant screaming, profanity or other verbal abuse to the intentional refusal by a spouse to have sexual relations that physically effects the other spouse. There is no real no defence. From what i know on from previous observations having endured a toxic marriage and recently losing a baby her action might have been seen as someone who was suffering and took it out on the person closest to her. She wanted to move on from her terrible experience with CW but instead had a still born. Relationship breakdown after still birth is common with couples dealing with all that pain and no where to put it. I assume that is what happened between Dorothy and her husband. There will be nothing else apart from that. i am not sure what the angle will be after obtaining the divorce documents , Hopefully it will be put to rest, just another casualty of the CW story.
Interesting find @Jo! Carl does look well in that photo stark contrast to the picture painted by Doff of a sombre, depressed, introverted and aggressive person; and to find out he was a Sunday school teacher aswell – how do you reconcile that with being a nit keeper and baccarat player. Apart from the deaths of the closest persons to him and suspected drug use , something more traumatic must have happened to turn his world upside down.
Peteb: no body seems to have made mention of the stand out bump and scaring in the middle of potentially miscategorised Charlie’s forehead. Likewise there has been nothing said about his rather longish facial features compared with those more rounded jowls &c., of SM as portrayed in the first newspaper photograph. Whatsmore the Charlie depicted in Grandad’s theoretical 73rd birthday bash does not possess the massive shoulders described by Paul Lawson or indeed of those evidenced in his 1949 bust replica of the deceased; And furthermore, Charlie’s abnormally large hands, as commented upon by Paul do not present as being so massive in the same family pic. circa. 1938/39.
@ Em- it was Pat who found the article – C Webb the Sunday School teacher is most likely Charles Richard & his sister Doris, Russell Webb’s children. I don’t think our Charlie is amongst the gathering…
@ Em – I think your reading of the situation between poor Doff and Geoff is probably spot on!
Just saying… it seems to have been the kind of occasion where several people on the familyphoto have some sort of pamphlet in their hand:
Mrs E. Webb seems to have a large folded paper on her lap,
the third lady from the left seems to hold a pamphlet in her right hand and has something on her lap as well,
the fourth lady from the left is holding a pamphlet in her left hand and
the fifth lady from the left has a pamphlet lying beside her on the grass (like someone else remarked earlier). It must have been a gathering where they all received a pamphlet, such as a performance. Carl Webb’s posing may hint at that too, reinacting a puppet player.
Also, on the larger version of this photo (@ the docu with DA) there is a tall white (flag)pole on the left of the talud on which they sit, along with a path behind them which may be a clue to the location where this picture was taken, possibly some sort of park or establishment.
I think the facts of Dorothy and Lockyer are worth pursuing. He might say in his divorce affidavit she was pouring ether on his bed or putting drugs in his drink. Then we would have to re-think Dorothy. The style of it could also reflect that both Lockyer and Dorothy made up stuff about Carl for her affidavit.
@ Sandra – some good observations! See my comments above regarding Sunday School awards and commemorations. Do you think this fits? Charles Richard and Doris Webb (Russell Webb’s elder children) qualified as Sunday School teachers in November 1933 (two years part time study and training). There was a Sunday School centenary in December 1934.
Jo: this is interesting stuff! It certainly seems to be a photographic record of a specific occasion, but not obviously Christmas or a birthday.
@ Nick – it would help to know about other photographs in the album for context. I think in the doco there is a brief glimpse of Richard A and Eliza outside what could be a church, on the same day… Once we have a later image of Norman (fingers crossed) I might reach out to Stuart – I’d like to send him my photos of the Swinburne school results anyway. I’m just conscious of not wanting to over step with contemporary people for whom this has probably all been a bit strange!
Jo: There was also a Melbourne Sunday School centenary 1938/39 (Pres. Meth) which doesn’t sound right for the Webbs, they being of good Anglo-German stock . The non denominational (protestant) two year part time SS teacher training course you mentioned had it’s bi centenary in 1936, a year or two too early for the family outing by my estimation. If Russell had qualified in 1933, then it seems that his own belief in the pukka British Saviour’s supremacy soon wained, he having converted to devil worship by 1940 so in all probability he died a Goddamn Papist. Don’t know whether sister Doris who married one handed Danny William Martin changed Gods too, hopefully not.
The said deceased left her surviving myself, this deponent, her widower and her sisters, Freda Keane and Doris Martin; her brother Carl Webb; the children of her deceased brother, Russell Webb:-…..”
@Jo was Ruby or even Brenda included ?…makes you wonder what happened there
Re: family Webb photo-I’m wondering if this photo was taken at Sandown Park racecourse? or, at another racecourse. Looking at the photo, on the LHS there appears to be a horizontal White band.
PB: reckon Stew Webb is doing a DA closed shop number on you, if he reckons his GGM Amy who passed in ’29; not his GGGM Eliza, the 70s ish looking old dear in the big pic. taken at Chirnside Park ’38/9. Can’t trust them surfie types with the truth, you know that; whatsmore Pete, that Roper River monster in the photo looks like it’s stuffed. Ask the Stew the beach poseur if he ever heard of Tom Cole or ‘Hell West and Crooked’ and if not then he aint never been further north than Yarraville and wouldn’t know trebang from wobbegong shit.
Milongal, we need to talk, urgently.
PB: funny thing about Stew’s GGM Amy Webb nee Tomkinson bn. 1895/6 is, that she had her first child Douglas Russell McCluskey in 1911 when she was fourteen whatsmore, it seems she dropped two more little blighters before Doris & Charles were welped. Anyhow that’s what MH told expat Pat so that must be true right?
Only problem is that Doug McC. who served in the army claims his mum Linda as NOK, that being the case he and a sibling twin or two? not Webb DNA positive unless it was Russell who knocked her up and they farmed all the evidence out at birth. Pat may have given us these family secrets already but it would certainly be interesting to track down the two missing links and check their credentials. Doug McCluskey (pic.NAA) who lived a long life, had some SM features that didn’t go unoticed and was five nine and a half, a good inch better than his younger rudder Charles who never had a chance, with his young age and all that visible damage to his phys. and being a cleanskin to boot. NB: If SM was born in 1911 that might give him a pass at 37/38 in ’48 but I’m not Keane on the equasion though I’ll grant you, stranger things have happened and are bound to yet again before we’re done.
PB: Three of Chinese General Sun Tzu’s best known tutorials apropos ‘The Art of War’ be most fitting for modern on-line tactical & counter insurgency offencives ie., Divide & Conquer, Beware of Towel heads and other beach bums baring gifts, and My Enemy’s Enemy is to-morrow’s hog slops. What you reckon, hit the spot or what?
@em: “@Jo was Ruby or even Brenda included ?…makes you wonder what happened there”
As was said in a previous post, there was no will, so the estate was divided according to the laws in effect at that time. If the law said that somebody in Ruby’s position or Brenda’s position should receive a share, then they would, otherwise they would not. Family dynamics wouldn’t matter. Obviously, share recipients could further share if they chose to, but that wouldn’t be in the public record.
Looks awful like we now have five candidates with the SM mole in precisely the correct facial grid co-ordinates, they being young Carl Webb the Gould League badge bearer, H. C. Reynolds of the U.S. Seaman’s card, Jock Armstong the Glenelg variety artiste and ROK reciter from KI Chuck Mikkelsen who went down with the MV Tirranna in 1940. Remains to be seen if Derek and Stewart will try to sort that lot out in time for the ’23 Logies. On today’s ID/FB offering no mention was made of any beauty spots on their main SM suspect ‘Charlie’ Webb and as for dead end Charles who was still wearing shorts in ’39…no comment!!!
As detailed on Toms by Two, Stuart Webb has spoken with Pete Bowes. Stuart says that genealogists have been involved in identifying everyone in the photo and that his his great grandmother, who died in 1929 is in the group shot. I think he is referring to Russell Webb’s wife, Amy, née Tomkinson. If so, my Sunday School scholars idea is off the mark…
@Em – Brenda Webb obviously wasn’t legally regarded as a Webb descendant and Ruby wasn’t a direct/blood relative. The document is from 1956, so well after Roy Webb’s death.
Dear Mr Pelling and the Cypherians
Well, I just wanted to wish you all a very Merry Christmas, a Happy Hanukah or for those of other or no faiths, just a damn good rest. I really wanted to send you a copy of our latest Country Women’s Association Cookbook but we haven’t gone digitalis yet. I really don’t understand what some of your contributors are trying to say, but they say it anyway and if you don’t mind me saying, some of them can be overly crude and mysterious. They really wouldn’t get away with it in our beautiful Northern Rivers townships. The Nimbin branch have given us a few tips to put in certain people’s latkes or brandy sauce so that some folks can have a good unimpeded festive natter whilst others enjoy their 😉 afternoon nap.
Best wishes one and all
Fanny B
Secretary of the Federal CPA branch, oops, I mean CWA
Sandra: a perfectly logical explanation for the ‘pamphlets’ is that they be just the usual flyers that the Webb crowd received upon entry to Chirnside Park? public pleasure grounds that Saturday. These were intended to give easy directions to garden displays, picnic areas, ablution blocks and like facilities that one might still encounter in some small Zoos or free range sancturies. Women are more likely to hang on to them than menfolk although the heavy set beauty in centre frame seems to have already dispensed with hers, an indication of it’s not being any sort of treaured memento as has been suggested by one of Derek’s team.
So now we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the group photo was taken by 1929 at the latest, probably a few years earlier. Sonya pointed out on 5 December that the fashions were from the ’20s and I posted a link to an article on ’20s Australian fashions on 13 December to back up her claim.
Of course Carl is in the damn photo! Does anyone really think the ABC doesn’t have the resources to research this stuff properly? And he’s no older than about 20 or 21. Yet another instance of people wanting to get one over on the “experts” and blindly going down the ditches they have dug in pursuit of chimeras, regardless of the screamingly obvious evidence which patently debunks their fantastic claims. Remember Bute v Boort?
I still think Thing from the Addams Family is in the photo. Perhaps Lurch could help me out there!
@ Clive Turner – I think you’ve got it with Sandown Park Racecourse, Springvale.
As Peteb/Steve H/Ghostboy’s friend Fanny B writes above, best wishes one and all!
So Stuart Webb has gone buffalo hunting up in the Territory. Personally I think he should have gone hunting for surfers up here in the Northern Rivers area. I know a few varmints who should be put out of their misery.
Off later to a Deranged Daughters of Australia (DDA) shindig to meet up with a whole bunch of Fannies and a gaggle of other shameless sheilas. Looking forward to some beaut Chiko rolls, lammos and a few bottles of Bundy OP.
Happy Christmas to all fellow cockroaches. The rest of ya can go to hell!
Terania Creek & Coffee Camp Good Old Boys sub-branch and Woman’s auxilliary of Northern Rivers fraternal order; not having been consulted by the Krishna linked Nimbin faction’s Christmas message of JOY, so as to include hebronites and other Hanukah pancake munchers who, by their flagrant disregard for our Christian values nor sanctify the birth and the resurrection of our Lord Saviour Jesus H. Christ…..Do hereby disassociate our strict Gentile membership from supporting any such blatant overeach of the misdirected ‘Peace on Earth and Good Will to all….’ attitude of our disillusioned brothers & sisters.
Jo: Just seems the photo is a family day out and, a racecourse came to mind, and Sandown Park is not very far away from Springvale.
Bob Nowak: fair enough if you’re happy to accept Sonya’s knowledge of 1920s sheilas fashions. Do you think for a moment that Springvale back woods gals of the post depression era might not have been somewhat hesitant in doing the trendy Toorak toff for outdoor family picnic outings. Conversely, I couldn’t help but note the codger in the pork pie hat with his left knee abutting the all white clad flashy lady’s right elbow. I see that the switch from three buttons to two on his jacket sleeve conforms to late thirties era and pours piss on Stewart Webb’s efforts to justify the distorted picture painted by his cohorts.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to one and all. See you in the new year. Wishing you all the best for 2023 too. (We most certainly can all use it!)
A slight error of location on my part in puting the family gathering at Chirnside Park. In fact it was actually on state owned pleasure grounds at Werribee west of Melbourne CBD which had been pasturalist Thomas Chirnside’s homestead in colonial times. Where the family are gathered for their photo is on elevated ground overlooking a not so steep river gorge with forest visible on the opposite bank, and there’s an obscured safety rail behind the group. For clarification, Chirnside Park is in fact a once rural land holding on Mebun’s eastern outskirts and was probably not settled or even named when the picture was taken just prior to the war.
Jo: Sandown race course was non existant in the 1920s. It was opened in 1956 to coincide with the Mebourne Olympics. If that’s OK Admin.
It seems that all couples are seated together except for grandma Eliza sitting with a couple at the end. Also there is a strange possessing hand which could the lady with a hat’s or the guy above her. Of all the boys Roy is most similar physically to Grandpa Richard who is seated with another relative – could it be his sister? Also the guy in the bowler hat seems out of place in the photo- a acquaintance of the Keanes?
In regards to Ruby, you would think that as Roy’s widow the family would have been more sympathetic but i suspect that being a Gavey they would have wanted to distance themselves.
Finally, DA has put up a post linking the boy at Swinburne to the CW body by a mole near his mouth. Pretty sure we got the right boy and the energy seems to fit what we know now about him. Swinburne might have medical records of pupils when enrolling if those can be found somewhere
Merry Christmas all and a happy new year. My wish is that someone- like yourselves- put up a decent youtube video stating facts only unlike the ones DA has been peddling.the latest still going on about an unproven suicide theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-W9ZhARTBA
Wishing you all a lovely Christmas, I just adore each and every one of you, and thank you Nick for the Cipher Mysteries, the most magnificent genius of all, in my humble opinion. Enjoy the festive season you ratbags ….. and I’ll try and find some stuff in the New Year, something to amaze and astound. Cheers
Backatcha misca, and the rest of you argumentative bastards, particularly Johnno who is a misplaced genius and worthy of more medals than his manly chest could support.
By a bit of luck and intuition, some intricate grid maneuvering, and some logical extension of all three, pretty sure I’ve located the site where the photos were taken which has changed little. Even the original safety rail along the river overlook is in place and signposted. It seems to be a well visited part of the park reserve and is presumably still a popular spot for photos. luckily I was able to get my hands on one great shot to prove location and which may be an effective bargaining tool at some point…Merry Christmas my friends, best for ’23 and maintain the rage.
Iedereen
vrolijke kerstdagen
en een
gelukkig nieuwjaar
gewenst!
Oh Johnno:
“…not many people (including our dear old Colonel) would know that racing actually began on the site in 1888, when it was a privately owned track, known as Oakleigh Park Racecourse. In 1891, the racecourse was sold to the Victorian Trotting Club and was renamed Sandown Park Racecourse, after the famous track in England. Racing was held at the track until 1931, when the Victorian government decided to reduce the number of metropolitan racecourses, closing Sandown Park amongst others.”
https://mrc.racing.com/news/2015-11-12/sandown-racecourse-racing-into-history
Sorry Colonel, my money is on Clive.
Christmas beckons! Have a good one mate!
Merry Christmas 🎄 Cipherians! Insufficient facts always invite danger. Live long and prosper 🖖🏻
And FFS, do listen to what I say! 😁
Pat
on December 6, 2022 at 5:22 pm said:
I don’t think it’s 1935, otherwise Ruby would have been present.. I’d say 1929-30. Carl and Roy would be in their mid 20s. And Charles Richard would be 12-13 years old. He could be the boy at the front.
@Poppins the 1949 photo is worth chasing up the list of dancers because both many of the dancers were named in a Trove search found news article meaning a list exists and the blonde wears a women’s Robertson kilt. The back of the 1960 photo or the frame might have names while the blonde wears a Robertson kilt, again, in front of Mrs. Dorothy Robertson (a Robertson clan group photo).
Jo: not to worry. I’m sure the MRC is a better authority on Mebun racing history than Wikki or whoever I got my now discredited history via. So Sandown was still operating in it’s original guise til the g’ment closed it down in ’31 though the white rails fence could still have been in situ and easily seen against the seemingly endless rural backdrop of a local family gathering until it was re opened for the sport of Kings three decades later. I wonder how that really makes all that much difference ie., chalk and cheese, to my evidence based (aps. GC) belief that distant Werribee Park was a more likely venue for a special family outing, such as Grandad Webb’s birthday. Remains to be seen…and believed I guess!
Merry Christmas to you too Jo, notwithstanding your infuriating never give an inch persona.
@Jo How sure is it that the Sunday School Teacher certificate was not for Carl and Doris Webb?
@Em True, in the newspaper article in The Age witnesses were quoted as saying “he bore a striking resemblance to a man who used to be a “nit keeper””. They did not say he WAS the nitkeeper 😉 Maybe they hinted to it as being a case of a doppelganger.
Also, what you wish for can also be found at the Familysearch website where there is the option to collectively build on the CW file, timeline and genealogy.
To all, I found yet another cryptic note, which reads:
“IEDEREEN
VROLIJKE KERSTDAGEN
EN EEN
GELUKKIG NIEUWJAAR
GEWENST!”
Pat: I truely can’t see Roy as being in his mid twenties the Webb pics knowing for sure that he was 10 or more years older yet looking much the same age in his inlistment photo of 1940. I’ll stand corrected if solid contrary evidence proves otherwise.
@Sandra from dutch of course.the same to you
This is a story of the problems of research. I had asked a Basel archive about the contents of a file on Hermann Jöhr. He had supposedly jumped off a ferry travelling to Newcastle. The Basel archive wrote to me a few days ago to say the entire archive is now digitized and available online – like Trove. So it was exciting to be able to track down Hermann’s folder. It had been kept secret for 50 years. I was imagining secret files explaining his mysterious death. But I was alarmed to find the folder that was kept secret for 50 years was empty.
I wrote back to the archive and they replied promptly saying the file contained a greeting card – a New Year’s card that was addressed to Hermann’s friend Wolfgang but had not been sent. Wolfgang’s family were linked with setting up the original Basel archive. I could only imagine Hermann had dropped the New Year card in the library before he had finished writing it and it had got archived and kept secret for 50 years.
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year.
Sandra: old jungle saying ‘be mindful of what you wish for in that it might come true’. As for Family Search I’m more interested in records that have been sourced and authenticated which is far from what FS subscribes to in my past experience.
In re your main subject of interest,the enigmatic ROK code page, I must confess to being totally at sea in what your on about such as specific ports of call, Norwegian and Bantu identities etc. If it keeps you interested than who am I to offer critique. Merry Xmas and best for ’23 Sandra. js
Pat: Gladys husband Leslie William Scott imo seated far right with missing left arm would only have been 25 if pic was 1929. Looks ten years older to my jaundiced eyes, what say you?…Feliz Natal & Ano Novo!
….whoops..wrong key Pat, Les was 35 in ’29 and looks 45 by my still jaundiced est.
Curio: Robertson being the fifth most common Scottish name after Smith, Brown, Wilson and Thomson doesn’t mean a hill of beans I guess but is worth a mention.
It’s nit at all like Gordon Cramer to defame someone he always had nothing but praise for, Professor Abbott being a former respected colleague and all but, when push comes to shove back stabbing your ex partner be a small price to pay when proof of discovery is disputed. GC now claims, after years of taking a modest back seat, that it was in fact he that pointed out the bust hairs to Abbott who sumarily dismissed them as being irellevant. Seems both now demand all credit for the big break, though GC wants two bites of the cherry by insisting that his ‘fact based’ evidence suggests amongst other things, that the hair DNA match to Carl Webb is somehow flawed. The mind boggles.
I want to wish Jestyn’s family a very spiritual Hanukah.
Beautiful Tiny Tyna, far from being born Jewish, adopted the faith by injection. She then became a leading lady at our gorgeous synagogue where she took the name Tampaxia. Like the present King of Australia she fantasised about being her Hebrew lover’s briny wet pads.
The older lady in the middle, could she be wearing an apron/housecoat … if so, maybe she’s been doing the cooking and they’re in fact at her property in the backyard. Random speculation of course.
Just a general question … what colour hair would you say the young Charlie had in the Swinburne pic … ?
Peterbowes: Brown, real brown, brown as button. Why do ask?
Merry Christmas all!
The photo of Doris in this article…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11099129/Somerton-Mans-family-revealed-wearing-American-clothes-time-death.html
She seems to have a hedge, albeit with an unkempt appearance, over her left shoulder. She also seems bounded by some weird post & railing.
Now moving on to the family photograph, aren’t we just seeing the same railing (given that it abruptly ends somewhere to the left of the image) and the same hedge in much better shape?
@John Sanders Like I posted before your post (read it again) I am accessing the proof from the records not available instantly on the internet. Your US cliché about hills of beans means nothing to most Australians.
@Curio….and most Australians know SFA about the Robertson clan, tartan kilts or the Highland fling for that matter min. Also many of our CM bean counters just happen to be proudly American and polite to boot. So what’s your beef mugger?
John Sanders .. so he goes from real brown to real blonde then back to real brown .. what was he using, Napro?
I think (as Poppins stated earlier) the tot in the front row with her hands on her head is the daughter of Daniel and Doris Martin, Norma Mary, born 1925, sitting next to her mum Doris Maude (with her husband Daniel behind):
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2167278?searchTerm=%22daniel%20w%20martin%22
https://sites-cf.mhcache.com/t/018/511/230018511/000/000019_0999192k20q795af64a8r7_W_96x128/ftq-0CiDz4tQ9_VOAowCFCDrZLk=/.jpg
I think the woman in the white bonnet might be Amy Webb (nee Tomkinson), wife of Russell Richard, who died in 1929.
The kid in front of her is possibly Jack Keane. The mystery hand on her neighbour’s shoulder is deffo Thing Addams. Could it be Gladys Scott next to her mother Eliza on the far left, with her husband Leslie behind?
Is the guy between Roy and Carl verified as Russell Webb? Is he sporting a toupee?
The photo was taken in 1928 or 1929.
I think you should publish my ditty
Your behaviour is nasty and shitty
[da Da da da] nuts
[da Da da da] guts
[da Da da da Da da da] titty
Bob Nowak: mere speculation of course, all apart from Leslie who at 34 by your reckoning appears to be nursing the stump of his amputated left arm. As for Amy in the white bonnet, if that’s her at 34/35 then she looks older but nonetheless full of life for someone with terminal leukaemia and only months to live. Of course the little girl could be Norma by your 1928/29 date reckonning, but not if the shot was taken any later. So what about the feller with the blond streak next to ‘Charlie’, got a handle on him yet, folks don’t seem to be overly concerned….I’ll stick with a late thirties time frame that I”m sure all but you will find only fit for scorn, much to my delight.
Lurch: sorry to disagree but the background growth aint no hedge imo, its actually some form of luxuriant folliage on the far bank of Werribee River and is still there
what’s more; along with the abruptly ending timber railing that may or may not be original.
….Oh, and by the way Lurch, the scraggly tree on the near bank as depicted above ‘Charlie’s’ left shoulder was still in situ when my photo of the venue was snapped believe it or not. Bit of luck you’ll get to see it sometime soon when the time’s right.
Petebowes: Dunno bout Napro but I recall that Byron, or was it GC, what put it all down to extremely high levels of isotopic strontium, traces of which were found in SM’s hair follicles. May have got it eating lots of canned Safcol tuna or else it was constituent of the ‘Toni’ permanent wave treatment he got with his fare-thee-well coiffure a fortnight before jumping the rattler at Broken Hill?
There, I brought your poems to a wider audience and fixed your scansion while I was at it. No charge.
John Sanders
Don’t, um, “hedge” your bets. Act like a man!
If you were a little more forthcoming with your discoveries it might help us all.
Leslie William Scott (born 1895) did have an amputation of the hand at the wrist due to being wounded at Gallipoli so he is probably the bloke on the right of the photo (as we look at it). Daniel William Martin was also severely wounded in the Great War, in Belgium, in his legs.
You don’t seem very bothered by the mystery hand. Your “white streak” in the feller next to Charlie is a centre parting, but is it a wig? is it Russell? Who’s the bloke behind Mrs White Bonnet (Amy). Could that be Russell?
I had blond hair as a kid but my hair turned brown before turning white (after my encounters with you). On holiday it used to go blond again, although I gave up holidays in 1986. Too much like hard work pretending you are enjoying yourself.
If you zoom in on the photo of the Martins with little Norma you can see it’s the same kid. If I was Cramer I would say conclusive, absolute, total foolproof proof.
The photo is from:
https://www.geni.com/people/Daniel-Martin/6000000077197850229
According to your beloved Family Search site:
“When Norma Mary Martin was born on 11 November 1925, in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, her father, Daniel William Martin, was 31 and her mother, Doris Maud Webb, was 24. She married Eric Rowles Hornsby on 20 December 1947, in East Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. She died on 24 February 2019, in Sunbury, Victoria, Australia, at the age of 93.”
She later married John Graham Cass on 28 Jan 1957. Note the Geni photo comes from the Cass family MyHeritage site.
Did you know that Mama Cass did NOT die from choking on a ham sandwich? She did die in one of Harry Nilsson’s bedrooms in his flat in London. Four years later Keith Moon died in the same room. They were both aged 32. I’m sure you will find some deeply sinister significance in that. Could be your next assignment.
I wish I could proclaim with all honesty:
“Say “nighty-night” and kiss me
Just hold me tight and tell me you’ll miss me
While I’m alone and blue as can be
Dream a little dream of me.”
Can’t see the photo being taken by the old picnic gazebo overlooking the Werribee River mate. You must have been gripped by the You Yangs! The view of them I mean. No! It’s a hedge.
Unlike Miss Jean Brodie I never think of you as in your “prime”. Nor one of the Brodie set – hardly the “creme de la creme” old son.
No mystery hand at all and surprised that you and thedud, he with 25 years of professional photogrphic experience and you with 5O plus as a baby brownie buff, would fall for the age old shadow causr & effect trick. Try throwing your powers of observation into gear and look for the area on said pic where if you get close you may see Lurch’s left knee where it rises up to align with ‘”white lady’s” bent right wrist giving the illusion of detachment which of course it ain’t. I can’t see where you get the gazebo from, there being no such conveniences in my photo of the family gathering for grandads birthday. You might recall that he was living at Moonie Ponds in the time immediately before his passing on April 2 1939 and you may recall regular weekend train/tram? services to Werribee were in place with a likely spur line to the old riverside pleasure grounds.
Reminds the inlisted man’s lullaby “Kiss me goodnight Sergeant Major”, know it?
Bob Nowak: gotta take particular care of my ‘discoveries’, with tea leafs like dead Steve Whatsisface & Ors ready to stake their claim if given the chance. In re 44 year old Leslie Scott’s timely appearance in the pic, aided by your most reluctant but thankful confirmation of his ID, hopes are that the likes of Stewart Webb, Derek Abbott & Ors. will be forced into dumping their faulted 1920s era Webb family time frame and come clean. Both of the posted group photos’ late 30s dating is made abundantly clear in the nonchalant manner of several subjects (not Lurch), this as opposed to either artificial poses or dead pan stares one might associate with the ‘boring twenties. As for your three year old ankle biter, she doesn’t have to be Norma Martin and my guess is she is more likely to be a Keane kid if there is one to spare
25 and counting recently demoted private, formerly known as colonel Sanders and thanks for keeping up with my CV but you have to get over this obsession. Im flattered old boy but you need to find a new hero.
….as for Danny Martin, the other wounded digger, ‘Lurch’ looks to be a sho in at five feet six and a half with sallow comp. & brown extras (NAA) . Could be Doris sitting in front of him wearing the cardigan, she looks about 40 which would put puts your own selections to the test. The little ‘tyke’ has gotta be a Keane, though which one; we could take a punt on sisters Joan or Hillary Bailey but it could be neither. Pat spent a bit of time on the Keanes before the pics appeared so might have some potential dates of birth around 1934 give or take a year.
Excellent sleuthing, had no idea about Leslie’s loss of a hand, my goodness, most interesting find Sanders & Nowak/Nowak & Sanders – looks like I had the wrong fella picked out as Leslie.
Peterbowes……and you go on to say that “his wife was warned by police that he could be dangerous”.. That statement is open to conjecture by my reckoning in that in her divorce petition she states that Constable Carter (St. Kilda Road), after advising her to see about having Carl bound over to keep the peace, “he agreed with me that he could be dangerous.”. Your latest post suggests that the officer had advance knowledge that Webb could be dangerous. Whereas others might be of a contrary view vis-a-vis that the word ‘dangerous’ was her own stated opinion and not Carters…See my point?…For what it’s worth Dorothy also seems to have ignored the plod’s advice, so she could not have been all that concerned!
Hey John,
Just send through the coordinates for this Werribee River location, I’ll go check it out for the railing, luxuriant foliaged natural hedge and this amazing scraggly tree that hasn’t grown in 90 years. I’m keen as for an excursion.
Personally I would like to cop a look at the grounds of the Springvale Road property. The Webb’s apparently moved there from Kangaroo Road somewhere between 1924 and 1931. Milestone birthdays and pending death day celebrations aside, with RAW being the centre of attention as well as RAW and his boys, we are likely celebrating the grand opening of the new shop.
Poppins: no big deal. It’s Leslie’s Scott’s age what counts. That then would give us the all important time frame of the family gathering at Werribee and by extension show quite clearly the false trail laid by Stuart Webb and Derek Abbott apropose their 1920s assertions. Turns out that Les be over 40 then 1938/39 gets the nod.
@ Lurch – the bakery was at 233 Springvale Road, Springvale (from Sands & McDougal). It’s no longer there and the site is now occupied by a later era building housing a hardware store & Taekwondo gym. There is a yard & laneway at the back. It’s hard to know what the area around the bakery may have looked like in the 1920s. Springvale was moving from being semi agricultural/ market gardening to semi industrial with new shops and a foundry & the Kelly and Lewis factory, built in 1922, across the road from the bakery. There is also a rec reserve near the old factory site.
Lurch: not much point in giving co-ordinants to feller with obvious limitations. Even if I gave you a six figure grid reference on an aerial survey map, you’d likely end up in Woop Woop. By the way there be no hedges in the Webb photo merely dead ground between the lens and the far river bank which Nick the Greek would see as being what camera nuts call an optical illusion. You’ll get to see the site when i’m good and ready young fella-me-lad OK?
….Crikies new shop opening you say..didn’t know there was one, sorry…Oh by the way who would be attending to the baking and serving counter customers on this fine Saturday. Here’s me thinking the Webbs would be doing all the hard yakka in their family run bakery, including bread cart deliveries etc. Apparently not by your reckoning!
thedude747: My past heroes mostly ended up deceased heroes, and prematurely too. So I wouldn’t feel so flattered I was you….if’n you get my drift.
@John Sanders The Coroner’s Court is in Australia not America, different methodologies are used for investigations. Speculation is allowed in the Coroner’s Court. Australian detectives do not use the out of date Occam’s Razor, but use the logic method called Abduction (moving the facts around till they make sense). I used your posts at CM in order to make a breakthrough in getting Dorothy’s photograph available on the internet (do not be so modest shout out your achievements from the rooftop). The information has been passed on, so pat yourself on the back (we now know with certainty who the people were on the 1949 photo from archives).
@Poppins
Sanders and Nowak? NO! NO! NO!
Sounds like Flanders and Swan – to which I say:
“Pee-Po-Belly-Bum-Drawers!
Let’s write rude words all down our street,
Stick out our tongues at the people we meet,
Let’s have an intellectual treat.”
https://youtu.be/eSrXqOI9988
Even a mention of our old friend Fanny Hill – with Christopher Robin and Pooh Bear! And obviously a seminal work in influencing certain contributors here. Speaking for myself I can take the personal insults, obscenities and downright stupidity, but the constant stream of anti-Semitic bile is getting EXTREMELY irritating. Moderator – please take note!
@John Sanders
I had to larf at your poor attempt at a limerick. Keep guessing you silly bugger. No brownie points there old cock. Glad you picked up on my NAA leads which you somehow failed to latch onto despite your 24/7 commitment to “solving” this case. The tot is more likely to be Pearl Bailey than either of your candidates. Which bloke is Uncle Fester – the one to the right of “Lurch”? Apparently Peter Bowes is Cousin Itt with his flowing blond locks. Lady in cardigan 40? With Thing on her shoulder? Gimme a break! 70 if she’s a day. And if that hedge is “foliage” beyond the river then those trees behind it must be the biggest in the world. Werribee Park didn’t even open to the public until 1977 – see:
https://vhd.heritagecouncil.vic.gov.au/places/1207
Presume this is your spot:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-37.9297602,144.6675756,2a,75y,306.1h,86.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO30GI4iLRpCg210QB5PeXg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
NO!
“Bellies, willies, bollocks and arse
Bloomers, knickers, panties and bras
Bogeys in bottles and turds in jars
Farting and belching
Frotting and felching
Squirming and squelching
Bum titty titty bum titty boo
Nowak can be a lot ruder than you!”
Swann, not Swan, above!
Should have gobbled a madeleine dipped in tea and that would have put me on the right “way”.
Hey John,
I’m simply calling you out for giving us no evidence whatsoever as per a la usual.
Not sure why the party would be travelling 83km each way to get to Werribee River in 1928. They probably could’ve climbed into their straight 8 Desoto to do multiple trips had it not been introduced in 1929.
Yeah of course, I get the bakery deal. It was all horse and cart back then. There wasn’t much progression through the years culminating in the HQ one tonner tooting it’s horn at the end of your street where you could get loaf in waxed paper and a finger bun with pink icing and none of that coconut rubbish on top.
My bet is semi-rural Spring Vale Road in 1928 when they took over operations. Everyone seems to concur about the 1929-29 date for the photo, except you John. I don’t think there is anything sinister going on, with Derek and the family or whatever dark forces there are trying to peddle a 1939 photo as 1928. Adults always looked older than what they were back in the day. You think 40, try 30. You think 73, try 62.
Lurch: My site photo is safe for the moment but I still have a way to go in being confident of it’s acceptance in a world full of doubting Thomases. In saying that I’m still at a loss, ala James Taylor’s ‘Fire & Rain’ on ‘who to send it to’ or more’s to the point who has the means and initiative to insure optimum benefit from it’s on line presentation. Now about your stab in the dark distance between Moonie Ponds and Werribee of 83 kms, actually it’s 28.8 kms via Princes Hwy., or 40 minutes now days by tram according to Google. As for your opting to standby Derek and Stuart’s 1920s dating for the photo, confidently pointing out that folks looked older in them olden times so be it, I admire your or unabashed brand loyalty to the Abbott camp as is your wont but, you might take more care lest you be caught out of your depth in this dar al harb (camp of the infidel).
Private Sanders whist your veiled death threat is disturbing I am on the other hand moved by you dressing me by my full monicker which means a lot. The “dud” stuff really hurt man.
So in light of this I am reinstating you to the rank of colonel on a probationary basis.
“My Name Is Webb”. It might after all come down to being that those were the words Carl tried unsuccessfully to convey to Jack Lyons and his wife Helen as they stopped momentarily and watched as he raised his right arm in a upwards motion before letying it fall. Had they reacted he may have gotten his message across by further hand signals but alas we’ll never know. On page 15 of the inquest papers, Dr. John Dwyer makes reference to two scratch marks between the knuckles of the subject’s right hand which he felt were sustained just prior to death. Sets me to wondering if it could be that two self inflicted scratches between the knuckle of his hand were an attempt to tell the Lyons’ his last name (Webb with two bees please) or, knowing he was about done, hoping to convey that same information to police or others coming into contact with his phys. prior to its disposal.
Or defensive wounds JS. Stabbed in the neck.
Old news? Anyway, it’s interesting.
https://powertoolstudy.blogspot.com/p/drills_03.html
‘In 1940, the Directorate of Machine Tools and Gauges, one of the original sections within the Department of Munitions was established to manage the production, reconditioning, acquisition or disposal of equipment and tools which included electric power tools. (National Archives of Australia 1987) With the onset of war, stocks of imported products were soon depleted and many components were urgently needed by the armed forces and essential industries, Sher’s power tools were deemed necessary for the war effort by the Directorate of Machine Tools and Gauges, this ready-made market allowed Sher to begin full-scale production.(Hardware Trader 1958; Sher Power Tools 1959 circa)’.
If Carl had been working for Sher since 1940, maybe this is how Carl met Dorothy. John Comber and Alice Robertson were working for the Department of Munitions, n’est-ce pas?
@Pat,
don’t forget the sirens.
https://www.awm.gov.au/visit/exhibitions/underattack/mobilise/siren
Mr AI Bard says:
“Yes, sirens were used in Melbourne during World War II to warn the population of impending air raids. The first sirens were installed in 1940, and by 1942 there were over 1,000 sirens located throughout the city. The sirens were tested regularly, and in the event of an air raid, they would be sounded for three minutes. This was the signal for people to take cover in their homes or air raid shelters.
https://preview.redd.it/bnkujm5g5uf91.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=d58acebd2fa9ac57c8f5cffaf8cdc4aac44d6bd2
The sirens were sounded 23 times during World War II, but Melbourne was never bombed. The last time the sirens were sounded was in 1945, on the day of Japan’s surrender.
The sirens were manufactured by a number of different companies, including Sher Electrical Instruments Pty Ltd. .[..it went off to fantasy land at this point..].
David Morgan: all I can see of any relevance be a referee’s tin whistle and a WW2 era whirling clacker device. Not a siren to be seen unless you’re meaning the addressee.