Thanks to Cipher Mysteries commenter Poppins, we now know that Carl Webb’s close relative Gerald Keane was known as Jerry Keane. This was from the souvenir programme for a J. C. Williamson production of “Victoria Regina” that ran from 1937 to 1938 (the file is dated October 1937, but the front cover has the hand-written note “Auckland NZ 1938”). Page 10 has a list of the “Heads of Stage Departments”, one of whom is:
So let’s have a look at Jerry Keane.
Gerald Thomas “Jerry” Keane
Gerald Thomas Keane was born in Ballarat East, Victoria in 1889: in 1915, he married Freda Grace Webb (1896-1964, sister of Carl Webb) in Victoria. There’s a 23 Jan 1915 news report of Gerald and “the Webb sisters” performing in a local concert. This was also the year he lost his job as caretaker of the Camperdown Mechanics Institute, as per this letter of 14 Aug 1915.
It seems that it wasn’t too long before he found employment with J. C. Williamson for, as commenter Francis pointed out, there’s an article from 20 Jul 1940 in the Camperdown Chronicle that says:
Mr. Gerald Keane, son of Mrs. Keane, of [130] Manifold street, who has been on the staff of J. C. Williamson for over twenty years was in Camperdown on Thursday, on a visit to his people. Mr. Keane has had an extended trip with the Russian ballet, visiting Adelaide, and then Brisbane.
Gerald and Freda had three children: Leo Vivian (born in Camperdown in 1915), John Russell (‘Jack’) (born in 1917), and Gwendoline Mary (born 1919). In 1943 (when his son Jack died), the family address was 194 Stewart st, East Brunswick, Victoria: before that, they lived at 226 Glenlyon Road (this was their address on Boxing Day 1940 when they were witnesses for Roy Webb’s Will). As commenter Jo pointed out, Carl Webb appears to have been living with the Keane family at that time (i.e. not long before Carl’s marriage to Dorothy).
In 1944, Gerald (“Jerry”) Keane was reported as winning £10 in a lotto in Launceston:
WHEN certain lottery prizes were announced in Launceston on Tuesday, two very excited people were prima ballerina, Dorothy Stevenson, of the visiting [Borovansky] ballet company, and Jerry Keane, chief mechanist accompanying the ballet. Hear that these two visitors collected £10 each.
The Borovansky ballet company was based in Melbourne, founded in 1939 by Edouard Borovansky and his tall wife Xenia as the “Academy of Russian Ballet above a shop in Elizabeth Street”, whose studios then (from 1940) provided the home for the Melbourne Ballet Club. According to this page:
The year 1944 brought two landmarks for Borovansky: he became a naturalised Australian, and J.C. Williamson’s backed an Australian tour that took his company from Melbourne to Adelaide, Hobart, Launceston, Sydney and Brisbane, and then to New Zealand. From then until 1961 – except for occasional unfortunate breaks – the Borovansky Ballet was a permanent and popular feature of J.C. Williamson’s programming […]
Over the years, highlights of the repertoire included Laurel Martyn’s Sigrid (first presented by Borovansky in 1940), Petrouchka (1951), the complete Sleeping Princess (1952), Massine’s Symphonie Fantastique (1954), Cranko’s Pineapple Poll (1954) and, from Lichine, a full-length Nutcracker (1955) and the specially-commissioned Corrida (1956). Borovansky himself explored Australian themes for three original ballets, Terra Australis (1946), The Black Swan (1949) and The Outlaw, a 1951 retelling of the Ned Kelly saga – proving that Borovansky had become, in his own words, ‘a dinkum bloody Aussie’.
[…] Borovansky’s papers and a striking self-portrait are held in the National Library of Australia.
(PS: ballerina Dorothy Stevenson was the daughter of the Bishop of Grafton. So don’t say I don’t spoil you for interesting historical facts.)
Gerald died in 1960 in Fitzroy, Victoria.
Chief Mechanist
In a touring company (usually ballet or opera, but sometimes musicals and larger productions), the Chief Mechanist (or Head Mechanist) typically reports to the Production Manager, and handles planning, logistics and staff rostering, to ensure that each night’s performance does exactly what it is says in the souvenir programme. Hence Jerry Keane “accompanying the ballet” company on tour as its Chief Mechanist makes perfect sense.
Compared to theatre productions, where Stage Assistants (and sometimes “Mechanical Staff”) typically report to a Stage Director, the role of a Mechanist would involve wrangling not just the stage but also (in modern productions) flying harnesses, animatronics, and all manner of special staging effects. You can therefore think of the Chief Mechanist was kind of a techno-magician behind the scenes, turning a performance into a memorable production.
Nick Pelling: thanks for your deliberate no mention of me being the first to state that Gerald Keane was known casually as Jerry. It was some time back actually, if you care to check, then again more recently as you’d certainly be aware. At least Poppins had the honesty and decency to confirm that fact…
John Sanders: you did indeed suggest it first, but as I recall you didn’t think to include anything backing it up. What distinguished Poppins’ comment was the inclusion of a link to substantiate it. Please tell me if I got that wrong, and I’ll update the page accordingly.
Awesome, that was a good read!
You failed to mention Gerald involvement with the masons though and it would seem he somewhat was still involved with the leura masonic lodge in Camperdown
Something quite interesting about the Masons is the third degree ritual. What would that involve or any of the other three rituals for matters sake?
Could the suitcase being to Gerald after all
Also there is something called theatre blocking shorthand. Could the code have some sort of improve
Anyways pieces are coming together slowly (very) but surely
Em: I wanted to bring together all the solid stuff about Gerald in a single post, because everything about him was really scattered around the Web.
I completely agree that the Masonic side of his life would be very interesting to cover, but that is still something I don’t know enough about. One post at a time!
Nick Pelling: I didn’t “suggest” Jerry for Gerald, I stated it for a fact and expanded on how it came to be ie., the Tom & Jerry connection. You known darn well be now that I don’t do links but am inclined to give my sources when possible. If others are able to do further research and gain additional Trove back up than more power to them. By the way Nick, once again you seem to have, in your new thread lead, for reasons best known to your good self, completely by-passed the main event, it being of course ILLUSIONS, the Joanna Preist – J.C. Williamson ballet world premier at the Tivoli on a Tuesday evening in Adelaide ILLUSIONS. Does the date 30th November, 1948 ring any bells for you?
NP…I think, based on your criteria of providing back up to earn solid accolades, you might consider my world first disclosure of Gerald’s stated employment as Stage Mechanic in New Zealand ‘Shipping News’ records. Thanks in advance mate.
@ Em – tell us what you know about Gerald and the Camperdown Leura Masonic Lodge! !
It is looking very likely that the ROK came from Gerald! How it ended up in a car on Jetty Road is another part of the mystery! Your ideas of either theatre blocking or a Masonic related aide mémoire are where I’m heading too!
The letter to the Camperdown Herald (run by Mr Scott senior) turned out to be from a fictitious Mike O’Leary I think? There was an Australian war hero called Mike O’Leary. He was probably made much of as many Irish were against the war and the Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne, Mannix, opposed both the war and conscription.
Nick Pelling: if you’re in need of some historical “backing it up” links to Gerald’s being known to all as “Jerry” ala Tom & Jerry”, including his employment as a mechanist [sic] or stage mechanic with J. C. Williamson’s Theatrical Productions Ltd., then I can cite several. They would come with a caution however, one or two in particular are no so flattering if you know what I mean…I’ll take a rain check on the update, an acknowledgement of the original critical input would suffice.
And just to add, after a quick google search it looks like a poster named Franscoise was first to name Gerald’s occupation as “chief mechanist” on August 7, 2022 at 5:34 am in the Carl Webb Truth and Beauty page. Things become interesting at different points in time, hey, as more of the story unfolds …. worked for JC Williamson, h’mm interesting – industrial accident, a bit more interesting …. travelled interstate a lot, slightly more interesting …. could possibly have been in Adelaide at the time Carl disappeared, working on the Under the Counter show …. now that’s darn tootin’ interesting!
Poppins: right on re Francis @ Franscoise on the nature of Gerald’s job status and likely presence in Adelaide for ‘The Listeners’ (@Illusions) ballet on opening night of which our ‘steamed’ moderator took uncommon exception to. He had behaved in much the same manner when I dared to suggest that my then SM nominee could have been in town for the show years earlier…and I wasn’t the first to bring up the possibility mind.
hi Poppins is there a link to the under the counter show in Adelaide?
Poppins: my mistake; it was NP taking exception to another part of the Francis post where he signs on to the Derek Abbott opinion that the code was most likely to be an accrostic solution. So nothing whatsoever to do with his same post reference to Gerald’s possible presence in Adelaide on 30th November, so sorry Nick…While you’re checking through the related ‘Truth and Beauty’ thread, my follow up post of 11th October at 12.04 am gives yet another glimpse of Gerald’s having also been known as Jerry Keane.
John Sanders: I believe I’ve read all the same articles about the S.A. Ballet Club annual presentation that you have, but I don’t see any connection with J. C. Williamson, let alone with Gerald Keane. What do you think I’ve missed?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129889362
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129897175
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43793641
Nick Pelling: easiest way to answer, is that J. C. Williamson’s were a huge concern with many tags, and affilliated with a host of independent theatre companies in their time. Being largest by far they owned most of the choice venues too, having overall control of things like costumes, stage sets, ticketing and what have you. Take the Borovansky 40 ballet group for instance, whom Gerard toured with, they came under control of Williamson’s management expertise in order to ensure all aspects of their programs were arranged in advance and went according to plan. During Gerald Keane’s long tenure with the company, whilst his salary was paid by Williamson’s, he must also have been hired out to like subsidiaries under contract arrangement. Just like Kenneth Rowell who put together the costumes and stage sets for S.A. Ballet Club’s Tivoli theatre venue; so one might reasonably assume an assistant like Jerry might also be on call. Dunno what you missed Nick but you can be sure Gerald Thomas Keane never missed his chance for a berth to Auckland and home aboard the good ship Mariposa.
Well done, Poppins!
Unfortunately I don’t have time to keep investigating, but I am thrilled to read your posts, guys.
John Sanders: According to the Wikipedia page, J. C. Williamson’s bought the Tivoli Theatre in Adelaide in 1954. Though what you’re suggesting might ultimately turn out to have been a sound guess, I don’t believe you have any actual evidence for it yet. And it’s basically evidence that genuinely moves things along, in my boringly grey opinion.
Just a quick thought… could the white tie be owned by “J. Keane” aka Jerry? Sorry if it has already been posted.
John Sanders:
https://www.adelaidefestivalcentre.com.au/about-us/our-history/the-majs-history
The new lessees, Adelaide Repertory Theatre, spruced up the theatre for the opening of Dodie Smith’s Dear Octopus in March 1940. Between its season, the Repertory Theatre continued to make the Tivoli available to an assortment of casual hirers. Among them were Joanne Priest’s newly formed South Australian Ballet Club.
Pat: that is indeed the point, but it alas remains speculation – I wanted to focus the post on the solid stuff we know.
Em, this is one of the Under the Counter programs with E. Morgan as Head Mechanist for the Adelaide show.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3079757795/view
The Melbourne Under the Counter program with C White as Head Mechanic and assistants.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3079751991/view
I found an article with two photos of Charlie White, he would have worked with Gerald for sure.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/55466729?searchTerm=mechanist%20williamson%20white
If anyone’s interested, this is a 1989 article about a retiring mechanist after 35 years in the business – he spent a year in Melbourne in 1955 for JC Williamson – good article about the life of a mechanist.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/120916002?searchTerm=mechanist%20williamson%20white
Off-topic:
Could there be a connection between Lady Hore-Ruthven Junior Red Cross Home (1946 – 1959) at Henley Beach, Kapara Red Cross Convalescent Home at Moseley St Glenelg, Crippled Children’s Home at Somerton and Carl Webb? I have seen some ads on Trove regarding a handyman position for these places. Will post them when possible, but maybe you guys have already looked into it?
I did post (I thought) the J spelling of Jerald but perhaps that was a dream.
JS, I had a look at the post you speak of …. good on ya, but you picked the wrong show, “close, but” …….. otherwise it’s a quite brilliant deduction, Nick’s tip-off of Under the Counter is spot on.
And, err, you seem to be calling John Keane “Jerry” in earlier posts on that thread so that could account for confusion, per chance.
Nick Pelling: you’ll find that there’s a lot of mixed messages about ownership of various theatre venues including Adelaide along with name changes. Turns out many such changes were merely undertaken for business related convenience, in fact names like Queenie Paul, Frank Neil, the Wirth, Hoyt, Allen and Ellis families were all linked to the J,C Williamson group of companies through their combined Tivoli, Theatre Royal, Princess theatre management for most of the twentieth century. The mind boggles trying to suss out who ownded what and when; but that’s show business for you. If you’re wanting to focus on solid stuff, then I’m thinking you might try the Bowes, Cramer and Abbott group, their full of it!!
John Sanders: according to…
https://www.adelaidefestivalcentre.com.au/about-us/our-history/the-majs-history
…”In October 1946 the Tivoli was sold to the Waterman brothers for £26,000. Adelaide Repertory Theatre were invited to buy the theatre but could not marshal the funds in time.” The brothers bought it from the Daws estate. It then went up for auction in 1950 (but nobody bought it).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48481317
So it would seem that the ownership in 1948 is pretty clear – it was owned by the Waterman brothers (AKA “Adelaide Theatres Ltd”), with J. C. Williamson’s nowhere to be seen.
Nick Pelling: you’re not listening. Perhaps if it had been someone other than me telling you a few home truths about the vagaries in the entertainment arena, you might. End of the day, know what it don’t mean diddly squat why? cause Jerry was there whether you like it or not.
Poppins (JS 11/10/22 @ 12.04 am.)
A few days or weeks ago, difficult keeping up with all the interesting peripheral side-show name games currently being offered up for consideration, that of Carl’s brother-in-law Gerald Thomas Keane was mentioned (like a breath of fresh air) in connection to his employment with the J. C. Williamson stage production Company. Doing so reminds me of a related post on his (Jerry as in Tom & Jerry) likely links to his sister-in-law Dorothy and her cousin Dr. J. Bennetf in connection with Carl’s staged offing at Somerton Beach on 31st [sic] November 1948. Therefore it’s worth repeating that Gerald’s employment as a stage set and costume machinist of thirty years standing with Williamson’s was likely to have been in Adelaide for the world premier of it’s AustrAlian ballet ‘The Listeners’ on 1st December [sic] 1948. The gala event was staged at the company’s Tivoli Theatre in downtown Grote St. just a short stroll from Adelaide station with its convenient baggage check in facility in North Terrace…in ‘case’ of contingencies, if you get the inference…ps: said related originating Jerry (not John) Keane post is in need of locating should you have time for such trivial pursuits.
Nick Pelling: (one for the money two for the show) 11/10/22 @ 2.55 pm.
Jo: Joanna Priest was connected by means of the staging of her world premier ‘The Listeners’ ballet (not her first) at an apparently exclusive J. C. Williamson leased performing arts venue, Adelaide’s Tivoli Theatre; and yes most of us here have commented in the past on her association with a talented young dancer Roma Egan. Thanks for reminding those who may not have been cognisant of that fact.
.
any one know much about Julia? i found Gerald buried with his mom but not Juia
Poppins: guess you’re referring to the show dates ie. 31 Nov. & 1 Dec. Which “got a lot of laughs from lots of folks”, and not the show’s title ‘The Listeners’ itself right?
You’re also gonna have to point out the errant so called John Keane “Jerry” gaffs which I’m not able to locate on the thread you mention ie., Truth and Beauty.
Not handling the pressure that well, Johnno, are you?
@Pat – that’s the first time I’ve heard of the caretaker position!
Re your earlier post on the missing grave for Dorothy Davis, French’s Forrest, there was a murder victim of the same name, from Parramatta, Sydney. She was born in 1920 or 21 and died in 1995, killed by Bruce Burrell. Her body was never found but there may have been a funeral.
John Sanders: you suppose / guess / expect / imagine / hope Jerry Keane was there, but I’m still waiting to see anything from you that actually supports that supposition / guess / expectation / etc.
I have no reason to doubt you that Joanna Priest was subsequently connected to Roma Egan via ballet (even though there’s no mention of her in Roma Egan’s Wikipedia page), but given that Egan was (again, according to her Wikipedia page) born in 1948, it would seem that that was yet to happen in any meaningful way at the time of “The Listeners”.
I’m not at all disagreeing that it would be terrific if Jerry Keane could be connected to the SA Ballet Club’s production at the Tivoli, but just wanting it to be so doesn’t make it so. From all I can see, it wasn’t a J. C. Williamson production, or at a J. C. Williamson-owned theatre, and the previous J. C. Williamson production “Under The Counter” had finished some days before.
Pete: phew, what a relief, for a while there, we thought you might have been diseased. Couple of us over here are trying to get your man Clive to answer his mail apropos John Keane’s inlistment papers. If you care to give him a hoy we’d be much obliged. Pressure ain’t in my vocab. old salt, I’m a constant 110/90, how about you?
Nick Pelling: it really doesn’t count for a hill of Keane’s whether the Tait/Williamson management were involved in the ‘Listeners’ Tivoli production on not, nor for that matter do any of your “suppose / guess / expect / imagine / hope” intimidatory barbs. Seems you get such a big kick out of aping Peteb’s childish impersonation of me truth be known. End of the day you’ll stick to your personal opinions and I’ll stay with my contrary views. It’s that simple really and you’ll agree surely that as such, nothing either of us might do or say is going to resolve that impass; que sera sera!
John Sanders: well, I’m dead easy to persuade, all it takes is a bit of actual evidence. Feel free to persuade me, I’m not stopping you at all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_Priest
Joanna Priest May not be in Roma Egan’s Wikipedia entry, but Roma Egan is in Joanna Priest’s…
As Nick discusses, the association is some time after The Listeners & 1948…
Wow man! Chuckle City Colorado!
Just thought I’d drop in, as my ol’ mate Kenny Rogers put it, to see what condition my condition was in.
“I pushed my soul in a deep dark hole and then I followed it in
I watched myself crawlin’ out as I was a-crawlin’ in
I got up so tight I couldn’t unwind
I saw so much I broke my mind”
Phew! Go, Kenny, go! Okay dude, you’re dead, but so what man? Don’t let that little problem drag ya down.
My pigpen suggestion concerning the Webb family group photo went absolutely Nowheresville. Wow, I’m a Nobel Laur-e-ate suckas. And you ain’t!
Now I dig what the man Pelling has said. Layin’ down the law and all. Ad homunculus arguments just ain’t on brother. And then you’ve got some losers pretendin’ to be persons they ain’t. Boy, that Bob Nowak had me fooled with a capital F, capital O and so on man. Turns out it was this sad English guy called Steve H from Plymouth or some such godforsaken hole. Professin’ to be multiple contributors. Ew!
Hey I don’t blame ya for blowin’ a fuse Nick P. Ban the bastards! Ban the bomb! Don’t ban ya fellow Brit Gary Lineker! Just sayin’.
But hold on there just a cotton-pickin’ second.
That Steve H brother did make a few valid points a while back in connection with the hombre of the moment, Jerry Keane. I gotta quote what the buddy commented five months ago to the day on the ‘Webb v Webb Divorce Files’ thread (where else?).
“Steve H
on October 13, 2022 at 7:45 pm said:
I have been doing a little research into Colonel Sanders’ bold claim that Gerald Keane would definitely have been in Adelaide on Nov 30 (or was it Nov 31?) to attend the premiere of ‘The Listeners’, a ballet based on a Walter de la Mare poem (I prefer his ghost stories to his poems myself). Totally unproven of course, but interesting nevertheless, I’ll give the old bugger that…
One fact I noticed, which may well have been mentioned here before, was that the ballet had “decor and costumes” by Kenneth Rowell,” See:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43791893?searchTerm=%22tivoli%20theatre%22%20%22kenneth%20rowell%22%20the%20listeners
Rowell was a Melbourne artist who also trained as a dancer. According to nickwatersart.co.uk he “was a painter in watercolour and gouache, a printmaker, theatrical designer and photographer. He was born in Melbourne, Australia, he began taking dance lessons in the late 1930s and was a student at the Borovansky Ballet Academy in Melbourne from 1940. Rowell danced minor roles in some early Borovansky performances in the early 1940s and designed backcloths and costumes for other productions during that period.”
Following this lead one can read in the Australian Dictionary of Biography about [Czech-born] Edouard Borovansky and his wife Xenia who “established their Melbourne Academy of Russian Ballet where ‘Classical and Character Dancing, Mime and Make Up’ were to be taught. Instruction was basically Xenia’s field, Boro himself acting rather as producer and entrepreneur.”
Further: “In July 1942 he presented a five-night season at the shabbily grandiose Princess Theatre [Melbourne]. The programme, mixing classics with lightweight, new creations, filled the house, and proved to the management of J. C. Williamson Theatres Ltd that ballet was potentially big business. On this basis, ‘the Firm’ allied itself to Borovansky, so that he gained access to its theatres throughout Australia…”
Of course we know Gerald Keane worked for J. C. Williamson. In 1940 he had “been on the staff of J. C. Williamson for over twenty years [and] was in Camperdown on Thursday, on a visit to his people. Mr. Keane has had an extended trip with the Russian ballet, visiting Adelaide, and then Brisbane.” (From the Camperdown Chronicle 20 July 1940.
The “Russian ballet” would have been the Ballets Russes, “a generic name given to a succession of ballet companies which emerged in Europe after the demise of Serge Diaghilev’s Ballets Russes in 1929…During the 1930s and 1940s there were several Ballets Russes companies which toured throughout Europe, the Americas and to Australasia. Three Ballets Russes companies were formed for touring to Australia between 1936 and 1940.”
From December 1939 to August 1940 ” Colonel W. de Basil’s Covent Garden Ballet (also known as Colonel W. de Basil’s Ballet Company and The Original Ballet Russe) toured to Sydney-Melbourne-Adelaide-Brisbane-Sydney.” They were in Melbourne at His Majesty’s Theatre from 14 March to 4 June 1940. in Adelaide at the Theatre Royal from 5 to 22 June 1940, and in Brisbane at His Majesty’s Theatre from 26 June to 11 July 1940. This would fit with the Camperdown Chronicle report of 23 July 1940 on Gerald’s visit to “his people”.
For more details of the tour see: https://www.nla.gov.au/sites/default/files/ballets-russes-finding-aid-2013_0.pdf#:~:text=In%201913%2C%20Adeline%20Genee%20toured%20to%20Australia%20with,headed%20by%20the%20famous%20Russian%20ballerina%20Olga%20Spessivtzeva.
So one might wonder whether Gerald knew Kenneth Rowell and so did indeed go to the Tivoli in Adelaide on that fateful day in November 1948. Perhaps he even knew Borovansky.”
Nick dude, there’s even a few “facts” amongst all that crayzee speculation. Gotta say that daddio. Even mean ol’ J Sanders replied (a day later) “Steve H: well researched… ” Unfortunately Mr H went and screwed it all up in a later post (25 October, same thread) tryin’ to link Jerry K to Jolly Joker Cyril Sparrow, dad-in-law to Dr Bennett and habitue of the Tivoli back in the day. Non-sens-ical conspiracy stuff like that don’t blow my wig.
‘Under The Counter’. Is that something to do with rude pix of naked laydeez?
Cicely Courtneidge! Far OUT! The original “Mum” in one of my top Brit TV shows ‘On the Buses’. “I’ll get you Butler!” Classic.
Who’s this guy or doll stylin’ themselves Francis, Francois, Francoise, Francoisse et al? Must be a seer, a true genius, a prescient prince(ss) DE LUXE! They were on to it last AUGUST. What were you lot doin’ then may I venture to ask? You really had it in for that cheese Nickio! You two must go waay back.
Peace and luv everyone! You don’t need a weatherman etc etc!
John Sanders, ah, if you’re saying when Jerry finished the Under the Counter run instead of heading home he made time for some R&R and caught up with the Joanna Priest ballet because he knew her or some blokes working on the show, h’mm, that would be possible for sure. Good on ya.
Sanders, you asked for it, so here ya go **shuffling papers** :
August 6, 2022 at 5:24 am
August 6, 2022 at 12:36 pm
August 8, 2022 at 11:06 pm
@Pat:
Looked at some of the convalescent homes a while back (with the idea that that might have been the Henley connection):
Some discussions (haven’t looked through exact angles) (warning – a lot of it might be somewhat cryptic back and forth between JS and I)
Page dr-malcolm-glen-sarre-found-rubaiyat Dec 28 2016
Page the-unknown-man-who-might-be-the-unknown-man-remains-unknown From about Jan 27 2017
Page tamam-shud-somerton-man (October 11th 2017 – search the page for (misspelling (no relation to np 😛 ) Kalparra), and then further down the page through 2020 Kapara.
Page new-somerton-man-page January 26 2021 and after
There might be other references I’ve missed (stole these from google looking specifically for Kapara). The long and the short (from memory) revolves around Solomonson; whether this is the Glenelg/Henely connection; which homes were open/closed when….
Short answer: Red Cross homes come up from time to time, but not sure we ever got anywhere particularly interesting – maybe you’ll have more luck.
just found out about Gerald’s brothers death sometime in 1947. does it coincided with any other dates in the Carl Webb time line? maybe the situation in the Keanes household became too much as Gerard mother died around April 1948
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65242510?searchTerm=w%20t%20keane
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/30151287?searchTerm=mrs%20keane
Poppins,
There were two jerry’s as I’ve tried to made clear from the start of the Carl Webb threads, the last being just a day or two ago. One was the pet name for SM as he was affectionally known to those connected with West Terrace mortuary during his extended stay. The other of course was Gerald Keane who was himself known as Jerry those of his close aquaintance later in life. Now in the three instances you’ve kindly provided, I see nothing to suggest my having confused the two Keanes ie., john and “Jerry” so perhaps a little more “shuffling” might be in order; or failing that perhaps a retraction to prevent detractors from puting the boot in. You beaut, & Good on Ya!
Bob Dylan,
Just to remind you, if you were not aware of it, that a young Kenneth Rowell also attended art classes given by Borovanky prior to taking up full time employment as costume and set designer with J. C. Williamson’s & Co. Not sure who Rowell’s music tutor was, dare say Jerry Keane could have had a hand in it, Foo knows.
Ah, two Jerry’s, fair enough …. I have erred, forgiveness is requested. H’mm, I see, so you were saying Jerry/Carl Webb came down in the plane, not Jack Keane, ah ha – you’ll have to admit it was a wee bit confusing to the reader, but hey, I’ll leave it at that. I get it now ……. conspiracy theory. Good on ya.
Em,
Gotta keep looking to see if we can get a lead on what’s with William being invalided from childhood, then getting caught at the wheel of a home made sportster in 1925 at age 32. I also mentioned that he used Peter as a substitute middle name for Thomas, most notably in the Age death notification of 30/8/47.
I am beyond the Jerry Keane and ballet connect researched and posted on Derek Abbott’s Facebook SM page year before SM was identified as Carl Webb. I am awaiting the WA Lockyer connection to return photos and documents requested by myself two weeks, ago.
I’m just wondering if the Robertsons & Webbs knew each other from their Beeac & Camperdown days. Colac is the nearest town to Beeac & the next town along the Melbourne road from Camperdown…
I’m not overly concerned as to whether or not our SM was a regular gum chewer though I doubt it in light of his nicotine stained fingers. However I’m inclined to having a contrary view regarding his brother-in-law Jerry Keane whom I would put down as being a Juicy fruit chewing reformed smoker. One who gave it up due to the nature of his work in fire hazard areas ie., stage curtains and other flamable materials. Care to comment?
I would rather think that in light of the fact that his younger brother needing support and the fact that his father died when he was a young man he has always been the supporter of the family taking the role of carer almost of his younger sibling and his mom. So I am not surprised that he looked out for Carl aswell. But bearing in mind 1947 is significant for both him and Carl…so what happened for him to let Carl go as to say ….could it have something related to the death of his brother?
Is the purpose of the Jerry research to find Carl working with Jerry in 1948 as a stage electrician/stage hand or some other reason like Carl is Jerry Keane because they called Carl Jerry in the mortuary?
David Morgan,
none of the above actually, and it appears you are sadly in err on both counts. Whether this be due to a low level of appreciation of the facts or else deliberate depends on your intentions. By the way nobody including “they” ever called Carl Jerry, in the mortuary.
David Morgan, it’s possible Carl was helping Gerald out, good idea. It’s also interesting because it could provide a reason for Carl being in Adelaide at the time, (maybe he had been staying with Gerald before heading to the station) which would solve that big mystery, hey. And add to that maybe the comb came from the Over the Counter set/Gerald or overseas star, that’s why he had extra one in his pocket …. and heck, let’s add to that that the code in the book could be theatrical references of Gerald, lol …. so, all in all it’s pretty interesting I reckon, gotta prove it though, h’mm, that’s the hard part.
John Sanders, I agree about the Juicy Fruit chewing gum – it was also used to supply energy, I saw something in the paper about a couple of blokes saying chewing the stuff got them to the top of a mountain in New Zealand.
Good on ya Curio, sounds fabulously interesting, look forward to hearing back about that.
Cicely Courtneidge with some stagehands at the end of the Sydney Over the Counter run – is one of them our Jerry? Maybe not, but there’s a lot of ’em!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248184652?searchTerm=stagehands%20cicely
Poppins,
I’ll stand corrected but, I seem to recall that ‘Under the Counter’ was a one show wonder affair in Adelaide, whereas ‘The Kiwis’ had an extended run from memory.
Of course other big events were taking place around town during November which included Foundation Day, The Parafield Air Show, Holden’s (local) unvailing, racing identity and Somerton big wig Reg Bickford’s well attended funeral at Brighton; Not to forget our Nick’s down played ‘The Listeners’ ballet at the Tivoli Theatre.
Great find Poppins! The man in the left top corner could be Gerald? (Cf family photo, and he’s a tall chap). I love the reference to “bottled beer party”! It’s both bogan and genteel at the same time!
I didn’t realise that Cicely Courtneidge was Australian! Like our friend Mr Dylan I have vague childhood memories of her playing “Mum” in the British comedy show “On the Buses”. Cicely was a favourite of my dad’s mum, “Nanna”, born in 1901, who was a big music hall fan – she was the one who watched the show. I was more of a BBC child, Cicely was certainly a hard working actor!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicely_Courtneidge
https://www.amazon.com.au/Crossing-Lines-Homosexual-Zealand-Soldiers/dp/1988592380
I noted earlier that the ROK may have come via the Kiwi revue show which had a long run at the JC Williamson venue The Comedy Theatre in Melbourne. There is an interesting book by New Zealander Brent Coutts on three of the original Kiwis and how they navigated queer sexualities in fairly homophobic times.
Could Charlie have been a gay man? I wondered about the possible “Interested” pseudonym used for the Norman McCance bridge puzzles and Charlie’s fairly late and unsuccessful marriage… Could Charlie’s queer sensibilities have been the source of a rift between him and the Catholic Keane’s? It’s all speculative…
@ Curio – I was in touch with one of the Lockyer family some time ago, a very nice man; apparently Lynette Lockyer of Northam has written a family history (for sale at a considerable price). I tried to contact her via a social media platform but it was some time before her reply “I can’t read your message, do I know you?” I felt a bit intrusive and left it at that… Look forward to hearing what you find out…
Jo,
You’ll probably find that inspiration for Les Girls all male reviews of the post war era may well have had their genesis in allied POW camps of Europe and Singapore. They were both inovative and realistic, also entertaining plus a great boost for the Moral of troops. Most notably one might venture to say amongst nostalgic English and Kiwi lads most likely pre conditioned to such risque behaviour from boyhood.
Gerald doesn’t seem like the type that would go as far to disown his brother in law on religion , I don’t think. What I suspect is that he had known that Carl was going somewhere he wasnt expected to come back from. If suicide, then Gerald would want that to come back on the family.
John Sanders
You crafty ol’ rascal. When I last checked in back in January you were the most reviled commenter here, barring that schizo (you might wanna censor that Nicky boy) Steve H/Bob Nowak character. Now you got all the laydeez swoonin’ at your feet (at least the ones you didn’t frighten off). Treat ’em mean eh bud? Never tried it myself as I worship at the shrine of Venus, but clearly dealin’ with everyone equally regardless of gender and standin’ up to sexism and misogyny ain’t flavor of the month round here. Heck, even serial killers get fan letters from their female admirers so maybe I should play it NASTEE.
Wowie Zowie! You got ’em in the palm of your hand Pops. I bin a-catchin’ up with some recent comments and apparently you’re “an absolute riot”. You’ve even got one laydee (I THINK she’s a woman of the opposite sex), Jo by name, writin’ love poems about you:
“Yes Sanders is a clever fella
Good one bro eh!
Yes Sanders is a clever fella
He won on the day!”
Ew!
This cat Francis/Francoise etc is my man, even if he proved to be a complete dud when it came to gettin’ a reaction. Unless (s)he’s another woman! Even beat you to the punch brother with his/her Gerald Keane prattle. What HAS Mr P got against him/her? Poor ol’ F gushed “Well said, Nick” about the esteemed mods’s ‘Carl Webb Truth and Beauty’ piece and proposed some of his own hypotheses about the SM case only for P to snap back: “Francis: you asked the questions, and I gave you the answers. If you prefer the feel of Derek Abbott’s horse-code horse-shit, then fine: but you’re backing a dead horse there, and good luck clutching that ticket.” Clearly the dude can’t handle his intellectual equals. A crestfallen F wheedled out (on 7 August last year) “For anybody who cares, Keane was the “chief mechanist” accompanying the Borovansky Ballet.” In his comment of 14 August he went on to say “This naturally leads us to the question of whether Webb himself had any involvement with the world of the theatre”. But he did blot his copybook by statin’ that Gladys Scott was a commie. I bin accused of that myself. Ugh!
Obviously no-one did care, at least until more than six months later when one of Mr P’s pets came up with some stellar “new” find which F had been onto since forever. Even you, Mr S, snarkily observed at the time “Never came across a Thomas or Gerald Keane either as a dancer or with management [F had clearly stated he was a “chief mechanist”] which I find strange in light of my being aware of such implications” after you’d boasted about your “deep J C Williamson research”. Still, at least that deadbeat F had one fan in the person of a “Mary Spencer”, who later called you “snipey” in one of her comments. Ow!
Jeez. Is that Calypso character still hangin’ round here? She’ll be havin’ a go at me for quotin’ from previous posts. I don’t wanna end up being spun into THAT siren’s web!
On a much lower level you then had the obviously mentally unstable Steve H chippin’ in last October as I quoted in my last post. Can’t blame anyone for ignorin’ THAT bum! Strictly between you, me and Mr P’s castle gate, John, I’ve had suicidal thoughts myself (yeah, even though I’m THE Bob Dylan) and I can tell ya they eat you up from inside until you are a mere shell of the person you might have been. But when it comes to a nobody and a dead loss like Steve H the only thing you can do is kick ’em down the road like the miserable cur they most certainly are. You did great work there Mr S when you joined in the pile on concernin’ Mr H’s mental health. What a shipwreck! Pardon the ad homs Nickio, but sometimes a man’s gotta let his feelin’s out! Anyways that varmint ain’t hunged round here here for AGES so he ain’t gonna worry!
Well John, you say I might not have been aware that “a young Kenneth Rowell also attended art classes given by Borovanky prior to taking up full time employment as costume and set designer with J. C. Williamson’s & Co.” You are correct there Daddio! But I’m just a sucka who’s never even HEARD of the guy so what do I know? I leave research to the idiots with nuthin’ better to do like ol’ F and Mr H. And they always get ignored so I guess the likes of you and me are the REAL wise guys brother.
As a man of taste (Henry Lawson indeedy) you’ll recall one of my own classic songs, pard, which would perfectly fit those two ne’er-do-wells.
“How does it feel?
Aw, how does it feel?
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?”
Of Micks and Masons and Ballarat banks…
As JS pointed out, Australian country towns of the earlier twentieth century were divided along the lines of “Micks” (Irish Catholics) and “Masons”. Camperdown was no exception as poor Gerald found out when his position as caretaker of the Mechanics Institute was caught in the cross-fire!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152333469?searchTerm=Mike%20O%27Leary
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152331569?searchTerm=Mike%20O%27Leary
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152334322?searchTerm=Mike%20O%27Leary
Spare a thought for the poor country copper who was neither a Mick nor a Mason. On 4 September 1935 “Henry Stokes, aged 53 years, investor of Beaconsfield Parade, Middle Park, with John Mulligan, aged 41, clerk of Mackay Street Prahran” were charged in General Session with having conspired, between February 10 and May 5 1935, to break and enter the Ballarat branch of the Commonwealth Bank.
Henry Stokes claimed that Constable Tye of the Licensing Branch had hatched the whole scheme and reeled him in. Tye, a friend of Stokes, had been “Shanghaied” to Brown Hill police station, Ballarat, after being caught drinking whiskey behind a shed. Apparently, he was thoroughly miserable there. In Tye’s words: “You have to be either a Mason or a Mick to get a quid here!” He had contacted Stokes, the licensee of the Castlemaine Hotel, South Melbourne, with an idea of making more than a few quid… Stokes, the Two Up prince, had declared that it wasn’t his usual line of work but was somehow enticed.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203858141?searchTerm=stokes%20ballarat%20bank
The police, on the other hand, claimed that it was all Stokes’ idea and that he had attempted to bribe two policemen to become involved.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204354990?searchTerm=police%20conspiracy%20to%20rob%20ballarat%20bank
Who to believe? The police commissioner Blamey, was certainly keen to have Stokes, who was up to his neck in two up schools, out of the way… Stokes had also managed to secure an early release for a previous crime back in the 1920s.
So, what does this have to do with the Somerton Man? Well, Stokes’ accomplice, John Mulligan, was supported in his role (perhaps he was even supplied by?) the Gaveys of 1a Mackay Street, Prahran.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224399792?searchTerm=stokes%20ballarat%20bank
This is an interesting address. Squizzy Taylor lived there at the time of a nasty hit and run accident near the Alfred Hospital:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222811521?searchTerm=Taylor%201a%20Mackay%20Street%20Prahran
and also when his daughter was born:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1923157?searchTerm=Taylor%201a%20Mackay%20Street%20Prahran%20daughter
1a Mackay Street Prahran had been purchased some time before 1925 by Joe Gavey
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155558351?searchTerm=Joseph%20Gavey
It was also the address at which Ruby was living when she married Roy Webb, in 1933, two years before the conspiracy to rob the Ballarat Bank. Edward Allsop, the witness to the wedding had also lived there at various times.
So, back to Henry Stokes. In 1921 he had been lucky in having a sentence for discharging a firearm with intention to kill reduced, after Ministerial intervention. This time he was sentenced to four year years in jail:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203855087?searchTerm=Henry%20stokes%20sentenced
John Mulligan, of 1a Mackay Street, Prahran was acquitted.
It was after Stokes’ release that he turned to Baccarat…
The Gaveys moved later in the 1930s from Mackay Street to Greville Street, Prahran.
I wonder how Roy of Springvale met Ruby of Prahran? Was it through Stokes and the two up schools? (There was one near his Springvale home). Or was Roy simply one of many young men who caught the train to South Yarra and then Prahran to go dancing at Leggett’s Ballroom on Greville Street?
And while we’re at it punters, a happy St Pat’s day to ye all!
Jo, I’ll look into The Kiwis a bit more, haven’t really delved into that yet, sounds like a good idea re ROK. Happy St Paddy’s Day too!
Comparison photo of stagehands with Cicely. Hey, the bloke that is supposed to be Doris’s husband looks like the fella in this photo, oh boy …. and the fellow up in the corner on right-hand side looks like the boy in shorts grown ….
https://imgur.com/KCsUdhu
Nice to see you back Bob Dylan; I don’t know who Mr P and Mr H are, I’ll work on decoding that later. I think Francis and Francoise might be different posters, not sure.
Sanders, the Over the Counter cast arrived by train from Perth (oooh, Perth) on Monday 15 November … last show was on 27 November.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43790893?searchTerm=adelaide%20cicely%20under%20the%20counter
Agree Em, I reckon Gerald would have been a nice brother-in-law to Carl, theatre people are usually pretty cool.
Jo
…and youse too begorra. It’s a great day for the Amish apparently.
Bob the dill from over the hill,
All good recapitulation material, amazing recall Indeed, indeed. But where would our ladies golf team be without mention of the Mariposa and a certain Keane stage Mechanic on its short sprint across the Tasman to Sydney from Auckland in April ’41 (all from memory?).
Does anyone know what Daniel Martin’s trade was? Dot Martin was of course the witness to Charlie & Doff’s marriage…
Mr Dylan – Don’t criticise what you can’t understand! I owed Mr Sanders some accolades to a tune of his choosing – Pokarekare Ana… I’d questioned a claim that came good – ie that Gerald Keane had travelled to and from Auckland on the Mariposa in 1941…
We’ve all been courteous Cipherians on here since Mr P read the riot act! No blood on the tracks around here my friend!
Mr Dylan – if you choose to trawl over old threads and posts you’ll surely get tangled up in white ties and blue! But who are we to stop you fossicking around like Napoleon in rags? Should we follow suit? Not sure I will, it ain’t me babe…
@Jo The initial contact was made from the Lockyer family side plus one follow up, so far.
Poppins: ah yes, to Perth to Adelaide (Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta) aboard the one and only Trans-Australia Railway no doubt. I think from memory that was for a single performance of ‘Under the Counter’ was it not? I seem also to recall that train passenger manifests were posted, so I’ll leave it to you to see if good old Jerry gets a mention.
Poppins: ah yes, Perth to Adelaide (Kalgoorlie – Port Augusta) aboard the one and only Trans-Australia Railway no doubt. I think from memory that was for a single performance of ‘Under the Counter’ was it not? I seem also to recall that train passenger manifests were posted, so I’ll leave it to you to see if good old Jerry gets a mention.
Just took a gander at the Lockyer brief and noted that on Rememberance Day ’22, both Pat and Jo posted train passenger arrivals to Kalgoorlie from Eastern States in The Kalgoorlie Miner. If we had the date of arrival for the ‘Under the Counter’ mob than we’re home and hosed. Alternatately, the Port Augusta Transcontinental rag or the Port Pirie Recorder should have our cast reurning East towards Adelaide for their gig at the Tivoli.
Cicely Cortneige arrived in Kalgoorlie on Thursday November 11 1948.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95701793?searchTerm=Under%20the%20counter%20Cicely%20courtneige
No mention of Jerry Keane but we do have a ballet troupe, including a dancer from Colonel de Basil’s company!
JS – I think it was plane manifests that Pat, Sandra and I found…
https://www.ausstage.edu.au/pages/event/97877
Can only find details of the Melbourne & Sydney productions of Under the Counter on the Ausstage data base, stage crews sadly not detailed.
A copy of the 1946 Kiwi’s program, from their Comedy Theatre run has been kept by the Australian Gay and Lesbian Archives, so significant for gay theatre history. If the ROK didn’t come from Gerald’s 1941 trip to Auckland the the Kiwis could be a possible alternative source. The “rare edition” could perhaps have been a specific print run by Whitcombe and Tombs for NZ troops?
https://www.ausstage.edu.au/pages/resource/61611
Jo: unless I’m mistaken Daniel Martin was a labourer from Brunswick before the war. He got shot pretty badly (in the buttocks) at Gallipoli and came home early. No idea what became of him. Of course there was also a Daniel William Martin, same age, same pack drill who was a grocer hailing from Geelong. He got it in both legs pretty badly in 1918 on the Western Front and seems he became a clerk later in life. Who knows how any of the poor blighters ended up, shades of “My Brother Jack” lifelong casualties of war for most part is my take from some experience.
@Jo
Did he become a criminal after not remembering booking 7 cases of iron in the Victorian Producers Dept – or was he found not guilty?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3814990?searchTerm=%22daniel%20william%20martin%22
Fabulous research Jo, really enjoyed reading that – that would be good for an episode of The Somerton Man series …. there’s a wealth of material, hey, I hope someone’s started writing it!
The Martin’s have kind of slipped through the radar, don’t know much about them at all really.
The Kalgoorlie show was cancelled because of a coal strike … Cicely had been keen to go down one of the mines and find a nugget. H’mm, some articles say she’ll travel by train, this one says by plane.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/80804124?searchTerm=kalgoorlie%20cicely%20courtneidge
off topic , we right now know that Jo Thomson was a wannabe, she wanted to be a thespian, wanted to be cultured woman, wanted to be this , that all in the realms of art and culture. We know because of her bohemian parties she threw, she wanted to be known as the pakies of Adelaide
What are the odds that Gerard knew Mrs Thomson?
By the way there was well know lady Gertrude Stein, who is it to say J . E Steyn was not a misspelling of Stein
@ jo also not to be missed is that Joe Gavey woud buy property and renovate them
also Clara was a known bonds woman for joe’s criminals bailing them out including Allsop
the ex wife being so freaked out that she had to disappear to get away from the mobs radar,,,,and if his son was a mason , you can imagine the influence they had over the city
…no Jo…it’s all there (11/11/22 Lockyer) under the by-lines averred to and includes bus travel as well. The manifests which refers generally to a passenger C. Webb all have the appearance of being the genuine article. You be the judge.
Em: Whoa up there neddy…what’s with these “bohemian parties” that our Jo Thomson has suddenly been accused of throwing in Adelaide to emulate “Pakies” Pray tell where did you by this piece of ground breaking news along with all the other stuff and nonsense that no one seems to be even aware of…except for your mention of J. E. Steyn which some of us old hands are still snickering over???
David Morgan: far as I can tell from your press article is, Daniel William Martin was a witness to the proceedings against William Vincent Stewart, he being as such an innocent party. How do you make him out to be the one on trial, or am I missing something?
bohemian parties – from someone who used to know her. her seemingly bohemian streak, an interest in culture eg knowing about the Rubaiyat when nobody else was aware of it. Her childhood friend which so happened to be principal of one of the round breaking alternative education institutes in Australia a par to Summerhill
She did want to be a part of the intellectual and cultural scene so it is little wonder that JE Styne (Stein ) would have been her artistic name also in light of her jewish conversion
“Berg” and “Stein” are both Germanized equivalents of two (Germanic-derived) Yiddish words, barg (mountain) and shteyn (stone).”
….something that might need amending is Nick’s thread pic of Doris & Danny Martin with babe in arms. According to the couple’s death details of 1956, they only had the one child Martin who died at birth in 1924…So who is the infant girl in Daddy’s arms?..
Daniel William Martin died 4th May 1956 at 62; Doris Maud a week or so later at 55. No idea what from but, in Dot’s case suicide would not be out of contention.
….have a feeling that Dan Martin may have lost his right leg below the knee and had a compound foot fitted during a long recouperation. Initially in Blighty then Aust. prior to discharge from the AIF in Melbourne early January 1920. At de-mob Dan was collecting 6/- per diem as a L/Cpl., of which his recently widowed mum Charlotte @ Lottie (see family photo circa. ’36) was allotted three bob a day…NB: in comparison your average British Tommy Atkins was on a “shillin’ a day, bloomin’ good pay – lucky to touch it, a shillin’ a day”. Whilst US doughboys were on roughly the same graft as the Aussie Diggers.
Em: well I’ll be stoned, I was led to believe that ‘shteyn’ in low German meant something else enirely..Scheisse on the other hand is Bavarian for stool right?
@js,
I saw clerk on trial and he was a clerk. I didn’t read it.
Tully was drinking, speeding, reckless driving, escaping and committing fraud?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244848659?searchTerm=%22john%20thomas%20tully%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251766077?searchTerm=%22john%20thomas%20tully%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2143585?searchTerm=%22john%20thomas%20tully%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193752340?searchTerm=%22john%20thomas%20tully%22
Jo
Well babe, if you can forget and forgive someone referring to you as a “b*tch on heat” then good on ya. Some of us have, erm, higher standards. And your attempts to utilize lyrics from my songs fell a little flat for my tastes I’m afeard.
If you had actually read my post concernin’ Steve H’s comment of last October, instead of doin’ your best to make a fella feel as welcome as an e-LEC-tric geetar at a certain gig in Manchester circa 1966 (Judas indeedy!), you might have clicked on the link that Mr H provided to ‘The Ballets Russes in Australasia, 1936-1940′ and found some interestin’ leads to pursue. Or maybe not.
For others who may be more enlightened and MIGHT care (to echo Francis/oise’s plaintive cry) you could, for example, check out a link there to:
J C Williamson Salary book, 1933-1943 [manuscript] (Available for reference):
“Salary book for J.C. Williamson’s Australian and New Zealand productions. Contains mounted typed salary sheets, memoranda, and an index to performers and shows. This volume shows the salaries of all performers in the cited productions together with royalties, commissions, and travelling allowances.”
The National Library catalogue has a whole heap of material relating to J. C. Williamson and the Ballets Russes.
Seems like since Bob last popped in here in January you have appointed yourself as Mr P’s enforcer. Well, I fer one don’t take kindly to anyone tryin’ to dictate who can and can not join in the confab surroundin’ this pe-CU-liar case and, God and Mr P willin’, I’ll continue to say what I damn well please! Personally speakin’ I can’t stomach FAKE bonhomie.
@ Bob Dylan
I’ll leave you to it…
Don’t think twice, it’s alright!
…..Good on yer Bob, you beaut, lucky bloody country and all that. Think we just mentioned all that good oil about the on-line J. C. Williamson salary records and the thousand or more show details, by date and alphabetical order but, more power to you if your gentle reminder manages to get our clever pro golfing ladies up off their otherwise self serving fat arses and do it justice.
Bob Dylan,
Trivial pursuit quiz time, ready…Two world renowed dancers and original stars of the ’36 Ballet Russes tour were laid to rest with full J. C. Williamson fanfare during their service to the “Firm”. One at a prime West Terrace cemetery plot in Adelaide t’other at a plt in Anderson’s Bay Dunedn New Zlnd. Reckon it’l take you a 42nd St. New York minute, no more!
Peteb: just between you and me and the lamp post..not forgetting a respectful mention to George Joseph Marshall of Taylor’s Bay, i think your time’s up.. if you hadn’t already noticed old timer!
Bob dylan,
Apologies be in order. Seems that a note to Poppins & or Jo on where to locate the gen. on J. C. Williamson records @ Australian Variety Theatre Archives NLA, didn’t pass muster with y’man; So your belated advice re salary records etc., were first past the post for originality and not plagiarised..unless I posted on another thread.
The Lutheran protestant Masonic Webbs suffered yet another blow when Doris hooked up with a Papist in the form of Danny Martin. To make matters worse he happened to be member of an opposing lodge fraternity to the Freemasons of which Richard August belonged. The family must have suffered immeasurably in consequence of all this familial treachery by the Webb wenches who would have been tutored from childhood to keeping the family together through good times and bad. It’s no wonder everything collapsed like a house of cards after the staid old gentleman’s sad demise in April ’39. Seems like the family paid a heavy price.
This is interesting, father and son working together for JC Williamson.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204905623?searchTerm=amusements%20leo%20keane
Answer me one question, Johnno, did Webb die where he was found?
Peteb: depends which Webb you talkin’ about, Roy or Russell. If so dunno. As for Carl, the Jury’s still out unless you’re a Derek Abbott fan. If you be meaning Jerry Somerton, then I’m 70/30 affirmative but, nothing to do with lividity, unmatching striped duds or lusterous toecaps etc…What’s with the dud, sorta miss the prick!
Poppins
Hardly surprising, just another example of “The Firm’s” commitment to all areas of sponsorship; some of it ‘under the counter’ stuff not mentioned in company press releases and for sound reasons ie., not wishing to seek self promotion in support for worthwile causes ie., assisting promising start-up ventures like Joanna Priest’s S.A. Ballet Club….What do say Nick Pelling?
@poppins, interesting , what that tells me is that Gerald was also skilled in stage management in addition to being a mechanist and caretaker. which leads me to believe that he would have to had created his version of stage blocking at some point seeing the the official blocking notes only surfaced in 1961
So how and what format would Gerald Keane has used for stage blocking?
If the Rubaiyat was Gerald’s, was the code even written by Carl?
if there can be established what prduction was being shown right around the time the Rubaiyat was purchased in NZ and comparing stage blocking notes, we might be able to rule out (or in) the stage blocking theory. Is there a stage manager in the house?!
Also any passenger manifest that Carl might have travelled or lived in NZ at some point. I do recall a prisoner E.B. Collins
Don’t know why I bother with you mate, you’re as slippery as a eel’s dick
@ Em & Poppins – I’d found the same article earlier and thought that J Keane stage manager was Jack Keane… I think you’re right, in Iight of the timing & Jerry Keane revelations that it makes more sense for it to be Gerald.
The code does seem likely to be someone trying to remember their lines (or a song) or stage blocking… So it probably wasn’t Carl and is more likely to be Gerald, Leo or one of the Kiwis…
Poppins: well found, “Polly With A Past”, lol! 😁
Join the dots
lividity = movement
barbituates = over dose
nurse = supply
phenobarbital = historical
Carl Webb no known fixed abode, an historical user of phenobarbital – supplied by x accidently overdosed at x property. for fear of incrimination transported to secondary location. the rest is history.
I’ve got access to an electronic version of the script for “Polly with a Past” (George Middleton, USA, 1917). Unfortunately the Comedy Players performance was too early for it to be a contender for the ROK code.
Which character do you think Leo played?
Harry Richardson
Rex Van Zile
Prentice Van Zile, Rex’s uncle
Stiles
Clay Collum, an interior decorator
A Stranger
Commodore “Bob” Barker
Polly Shannon
Mrs˙ Martha Van Zile, Rex’s mother
Myrtle Davis
Mrs˙ Clementine Davis, her mother
Parker, a maid
There’s a “[Mr] G. Keane” in the chorus here in Dubbo in 1933:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132948869
Is this the Keanes at the Trotting Ball in 1950?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39104183
Great photo from the first production of Polly with a Past!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polly-With-A-Past-1917.png
Its Sanders, trying to pass more misinformation on to Poppins, Em’s in the background, looking a bit apprehensive. PB, centre stage, is seeing if there’s anything in it for his latest Toms by Two entry and Steve H, stage right, is getting a bit hot under the bow tie and is about to start throwing a few verbal spars. Nice photo Dude!
To me the bloke at the back looks like Leo … comparison photo.
https://imgur.com/kRiBrGP
I’d say a possible yes to the Chorus of “A Country Girl” in Dubbo in 1933 – it’s a JCW production and we know that Gerald sang and performed blackface in Camperdown back in 1916. The Trotting Ball – too far away (Perth) and the couple are too young…
Jo
Hardly misinfornation pal. Fact being varified that in ’48 Rowell was on the payroll of the “Firm” Tait/ Williamson entertainment Ltd. He was seconded on loan, along with Jerry Keane and others in town for ‘under the Counter’, to lend a hand with costumes and stage sets for S.A. Ballet Club’s premier of ‘The Listeners’ at the old Adelaide Tivoli theatre. You must know that, Pelling must be cognisant of it and Poppins is certainly astute enough to appreciate it’s relevance. No contrary views can change that logic, end of story!
John Sanders: I’m still getting a high story-to-evidence ratio vibe off this, sorry.
Nick Pelling: that’s your prerogative and you ain’t likely to change, I’m neither worried nor overly surprised by your obstinant stance. If only I had been more convincing who knows, there may have been a positive outcome but, that being now beyond any show of happening, we’ll have to agree to disgree and stick with our contrary views.
“John Sanders
on March 17, 2023 at 11:25 pm said:
….something that might need amending is Nick’s thread pic of Doris & Danny Martin with babe in arms. According to the couple’s death details of 1956, they only had the one child Martin who died at birth in 1924…So who is the infant girl in Daddy’s arms?”
Norma Mary Martin, born 11 Nov. 1925.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2167278?searchTerm=%22daniel%20w.%20martin%22%20%20toolangi%20road
@milongal
Thanks for your reply!
“Short answer: Red Cross homes come up from time to time, but not sure we ever got anywhere particularly interesting – maybe you’ll have more luck.”
Lady Lawley Home for crippled children at Cottesloe Beach.
They used to hire extra people for the Red Cross Christmas parties.
Maybe that’s what Carl was doing there and also at Somerton Beach late November carrying his tools.
Can someone check this info?
Marriage Records NSW
3923/1964
STANFORD, JOHN CHARLES and LOCKYER, DOROTHY JOAN (could it be a typo?)
SYDNEY
JS – Not only was Norma Mary Martin born in 1925, she lived until 2019. One of her children – Roy Hornsby, a Vietnam veteran and former professor of IT lives in Vietnam, where he and his Vietnamese born wife are involved in philanthropic and community work.
I don’t think it would have worried the Webbs that two of their daughters married Catholics. Like the Gaveys, it’s probably also the case that descendants also married into Jewish families. It’s similar in my own family – Jewish, Catholic, Methodist, Seventh Day Adventist, Hindu all in the mix. It’s Melbourne life.
Daniel Martin was stationed in France where he suffered gunshot wounds to his legs, it looks as though he kept both of them, and his feet.
Love the photos from the Trotting Ball, Nick, yeah, I think he’s a bit young looking for Gerald, but if I may say, those male ballet dancers look particularly fetching 🙂
Polly with a Past sounds intriguing, I’ve gotta look into what that’s all about, hey.
Pat, interesting find if it is a Joan/Jean typo, another hubby for Dot, oh boy, look forward to hearing more about that.
@Poppins, probably not her, as she had divorced Geoffrey Arthur and wouldn’t have kept his surname.
Another possibility, but I suspect it has already been mentioned on here, is Dorothy JANE Robertson who married Edward Thomas Salmon in 1954 in Rockdale.
Jo: thanks for the alternate version of the Martin family tree. Seems Ancestry led me astray saying that baby Martin, still born April 1924, was the only issue of Doris and Daniel; none of my doing. As for Daniel’s serious wounds to both legs in 1918 including a compound fracture to his right tibia, I noted an unusually long period for recovery, along with reference to artificial limbs in an accompanying filing with NAA so who knows. As for grandson Roy Hornsby, your right of course, we served in the same corps, but at different times and so we didn’t cross paths in Vietnam during the period of hostilities. Can’t say that I’ve bumped into Royby.com during my thirty five years in country..I’m sort of recluseful and he’s not, so there you go, my fault as usual.
…Roy and Lan are long time residents of Hoi An where they run a free school for poor kids. He had been a University lecturer in Saigon pre retirement and there’s a review of the couple’s philanthropic doings in the Tuoi Tre News 28/2/20 with pics.
It looks like Charlie White (Melbourne mechanist) was only two years
youngerolder than Gerald, they probably worked together a lot. Can anyone find out when he passed, it’d be interesting to see if he got a write-up at the time, or notices in the paper from JCW, etc, just curious. Popular bloke, Charlie, good on him, hey.https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/8418854
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/1717931
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/3621074
@Pat No good born 1 August 1942 occupation a nurse daughter of Claude Charles Lockyer and Marjorie Lawler (cost me $35 from the NSW historical records or marriages – next time pay for your own rabbit down a hole).
@ Pat – I have ordered the certificate! In for a penny, in for a dollar or two ;). You just never know…
Jo: Doris Martin nee Webb seems to have had Norma Mary within a farely short interval following the death of baby Martin. Norma in turn had eight of her own with a number of partners apparently. That explains the Helen Cass familial link which musta come into play when I was away. Allan Hamill gets a guernsey as well which is hardly surprising though your introduction of Roy Hornsby is out of left field and interesting from a Keane gene perspective…As for GC’s timely new ROK with Kiwi credentials and P. Williamson inscription; may as well be R.M. Williams, a name reminiscent with Len Brown’s stockman’s shoes.
@Curio
Sorry matey but I was asking for info on the person, not the marriage certificate. I know it is costly so I don’t even consider that. As I said before, I don’t have much time to keep investigating due to work. Next time I will ask on Abbot’s FB group. Cheers!
Poppins:
Just now came across your post of Cicely Courtneidge with the stagehands. Comparing to the Webb family photo, one fellow does stick out to me as maybe being Jerry, and that’s the one most to the right in the front (he’s turned pretty far toward our left). It also doesn’t hurt that this particular stagehand has the same sort of “low-set” ear hollow as both of Jerry’s sons…
Jo-Poppins & NP
No need to correct my Keane gene gaff gals, I’m well familiar with what Webb sisters ended as Martins, Scotts and Keanes; just that the latter rhymes with gene.
An example of nickname confirmation bias that will not to go down well with some can be scrutinesd for what it’s worth on the ‘John aka Jack Keane’ thread – 2.32am 9/8/22:
“…when the Keane (tie) initial had to be either a ‘J’ or a ‘T’ that would seem to leave Gerald out of contention. Not so to those up on quirks in the entertainment world of the forties. The usual short form for Gerald ended up Jerry as in Tom & Jerry, not Gerry as in Gerald Feltus.” and why not? “… There you go, no need for absolute proofs when a reader’s attuned logic and informant’s fine intuitive skills be in sync.
JamieS, it could be him, good pick up re the ears. I think three of us here have each picked someone different, lol.
Here’s a picture of Leo from 1955 – what do you think of him maybe being the bloke in the top right corner partly obscured?
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1623287690/view?sectionId=nla.obj-1699397591&searchTerm=Leo+Keane&partId=nla.obj-1623617839#page/n10/mode/1up/search/Leo+Keane
@ Poppins – your latest ABC photo of Leo looks very much like the young lad in the family photo!
Sorry ladies can’t locate the Jamie S. ABC photo of Leo on my little screen. Perhaps one of you could blow it up for me if you’re not too busy. Thanks
Poppins:
It’s possible that the guy in the back could be Leo, though unfortunately there’s not much to work with. I will say that the eye and brows are a good match to Leo’s military photo; the brows do seem to come a bit too close together but that could be a trick of the light (or perhaps makeup if he was an actor in that production?). I’m not as persuaded by the ear, mostly as I would expect to see it sticking more outward overall (as in your pic from ’55). Although, I have seen another picture of Leo from ’57 (he’s on the far left):
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1499737271/view?sectionId=nla.obj-1554800227&partId=nla.obj-1499791165#page/n0/mode/1up
Positioning aside, that one’s ear seems to match that of the fellow in back pretty well. Granted, it’s left side compared to right, but I imagine that both would age in the same sort of way on the same person. The problem is that the stagehand photo (’48) was taken (I presume) just a few years after the military one, and seems a big change to happen in that small an amount of time. And once again I will raise that the ’48 ear seems too close to the head compared to the pictures of Leo taken both before and afterward (check out the earlobes, particularly). If they were all the same person, I’d expect that any such changes would remain or progress as the years went on, rather than undoing themselves.
Does anyone know where Leo’s solo newspaper photo is? I can’t find it now, but it might also be useful for comparison.
JamieS, thanks for your response, much appreciated, yeah, it’s probably not him … he just looks familiar, the ears are always the give-away it seems, hey. Here’s some of the other pictures of Leo:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206215176?searchTerm=Leo%20Keane
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/249250731?searchTerm=Leo%20Keane
Re Leo, he probably started out with JC Williamson’s with his dad, then moved on to 3AW, 3KZ, etc. He was the principal at Keane, Santos, Vawser Advertising later on. Seems like a top bloke.
And Sanders, this one’s for you:
https://imgur.com/loXoqzF
Thanks to you as well, Poppins! You always do deliver (and in a most delightful way, might I add).
Eurgh, I can feel my medicine coming up…
Poppins: Thanks for Leo, sorry to put you to the trouble. I’m now even more happy with a young Webb in the 36? family snap, the one taken by Thomas Gerald Keane
[sic] according to Derek Abbott’s outdated reckoning.
@Eurgh, Mirth be the best medicine sayeth the jester but, don’t expect it to come up here any time soon. It’s merely a diversion for dullards and has no place within our team of patronising ‘good on ya’ fawnicaters.
Prior to his travelling to Adelaide, Carl was living in the NSW wheatbelt town of Murrumburah in the local flour mill. He later accepted an offer to work in the Adamson’s Mill of Adelaide. It was during this period that he reconnected with Harkness and her brother and converted to Judaism – although as a G he did not have the chance to visit a mohel for the snip. Whilst working for Adamson’s (local prominent Jewish family) he was introduced to many Marranos and used their extensive social networks to form a criminal enterprise with Prosper, by whom he was murdered.
Oi vey! Kind of killed the conversation there…!
@dinah
Wow, is there any proof of that?
@Em Well there is “Cass” family member on an ancestry Website with a family tree descended from a sister of Carl Webb.
Stones on his grave from some unknown person and that piece of barley grass might corroborate that
we have to look into the Harkness brother and the Adamson family i guess
Interesting little article re the JC Williamson Switzerland Ice Show in WA – 12 mechanists, h’mm, only the chief one makes it into the program, the rest must be bundled into the “assistants” bracket. Charlie White is leading the bunch into the goldfields …
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/9050376
Passengers on the train, no sign of Jerry Keane.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/9050321
Just a nice story…
I spent Sunday night in Camperdown, I had some young people to collect from a nearby circus festival on Monday morning…
There is a picture of what would have been the Webb’s bakery here (as Robertson’s bakery) on here:
https://camperdownhistory.org.au/everypicture/
It’s at the edge of town. Today there is a private house on the site, next door to the Red Robin Cafe and a small strip of wildly eclectic bric a brac and antique shops. https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.2290088,143.1423463,17z
The biggest recent news in that stretch of town was a fire earlier in the year, at a nearby grow house! https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-08/house-fire-reveals-cannabis-growing-operation-police-say/101944544
I think Gerald Keane’s house (130 Manifold Street?) was next door to the Camperdown Chronicle – which is still operating in the same building.
Camperdown is a beautiful town, situated in old volcanic country – lakes and ancient craters all around. There are lots of unspoilt early twentieth century buildings in the town. It’s probably doing it tough as the dairy factory is now down to making infant formula only, no more milk, yogurt and cheese. I stayed in an old hotel that is just a few years older than Carl Webb (built in 1902 and very intact, with a great view of the clock tower).
There are lots of posters up in town advertising a season of 75th anniversary performances by the Camperdown Theatre Company https://www.camperdowntheatrecompany.com.au/
On Monday morning I bought a small, art deco, uranium-glass vase from one of my favourite Camperdown shops – Laff’s. Its a clothes shop that sells lots of other things… They have a raffle going for a Theatre Company 75th anniversary quilt – featuring fabrics from old costumes and props, it’s gorgeous. They are also selling tickets for the show, which includes performances from quite a few members of the Lafferty family.
The first mention of the Webb family in Camperdown has of course appeared on here several times before – it was the 1915 inaugural performance of the Camperdown Entertainers featuring Gerald Keane, Roy, Gladys and Freda Webb and Russell’s future wife, Amy Tompkinson:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152333502?searchTerm=camperdown%20entertainers
One of the aims of the concert was to fundraise to assist the talented soprano Miss Nellie Lafferty to pursue music studies in Melbourne! Nellie Lafferty appeared in concerts around Australia throughout the 1920s and 30s. I assume that she is from the same Lafferty family as the Laff’s clothes shop family, who are still treading the boards!
Has anybody investigated this 1940 Sands & McDougall’s entry?
“Webb, C., amusements, 384 High-st, Nthc., N.16”
Pat: Check trove for Webb entertainment eg. roller skating and variety shows of long standing Australia wide. Professor Webb was prop. way back in the 1880’s
though may have survived like most travelling circus troupes.
Nope, nothing on Trove (although it seems to be having technical issues).
What was his first name?
He’s not listed on S&Mac in 1935 and in 1944-45.
384 High Street, Northcote, is very close (2.7 Km) to where Carl was living in 1940 (226 Glenlyon Road).
I thought he could have opened a business with Hickey Taylor (who was a dance promoter back in Hobart – fined for for ‘failing to issue a sufficients number of stamped tickets, as required under the Amusement. Tax Act’).
All the other ‘C. Webb’ on S&Mac are ‘Chas’ or have a middle name.
@ Pat – I’m intrigued. The building is still there, it’s now a tow of shops and restaurants but could easily have been a dance hall or similar…
@ Pat – in 1934, 384 High Street was a billiard saloon, run by J McRae. This wouldn’t be unfamiliar territory for Carl, as we know Richard August Webb applied for his citizenship whilst managing a billiards club on Sydney Road Brunswick (now the Brunswick Club). From memory he was working as a cook?
@ Pat – perhaps billiards room run as an illegal gaming house!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/267797059?searchTerm=Billiards%20high%20street%20northcote
@ Jo,
This is really interesting, thanks!
And the billiards connection puts his nephew Charles Richard in the game, n’est-ce pas?
Do you know when the Taylors left Hobart for Melbourne?
Henry Taylor (without the middle name, unfortunately) was fined for drinking at the Freemansons’ Hotel at a time when the sale of liquor was prohibited (25 Jan 1924).
The other men fined were Thomas Allwright, George Norman, and Peter Flanagan.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23716686?searchTerm=%22henry%20taylor%22%20%22freemasons%27%20hotel%22#
I’ll try to find more info to see if this Henry could be Hickey, but the dance promoter evading taxes was definitely him.
His father’s name is listed on Sands&Mac 1935 edition, and her mother’s name on the 1940 edition at 56 Surrey Road, South Yarra, but not in the 1930 edition.
I know Hickey had been working for J C Williamson’s company for 25 years in 1951, so I’m guessing they have moved to Melbourne between 1925-1926?
Based on yours and Poppins’ brilliant research on the J. C. Williamson’s company, where was Hickey supposed to be in 1940?
It could be useful to know which month Sands&Mac 1940 edition came out. I reckon the data is from the same year and not the previous one? It’s a shame we don’t have editions for the intervening years!
I haven’t been able to find ‘amusements’ at the Professions and Trades section of Sands&Mac, but while browsing it I have noticed that in 1940 both Patterson, H. and Wabb (sic), R. A. are listed as bakers at Springvale.
Wasn’t there the story on an inventor C. Webb with a card playing machine? and the policeman who was undercover losing money on the machine
@ David,
I can’t find it on CM, but the google search tool is a bit flawed.
@ All,
Would Gerald Thomas Keane, Leo Vivian Keane and Henry Herbert “Hickey” Taylor be members of the Australian Theatrical and Amusement Employees’ Association? And maybe this C. Webb as well?
Pat, Jo,
What is the evidence we have that Carl was living at 226 Glenlyon Rd. in 1940?
AT: sorry for poking my bib in but, I think you’ll find that Carl’s having lived with the Keanes in 1940 was based on a collective ‘scenes we’d like to see’ supposition by certain punters. 226 was where the Keane’s lived in 1940 according to Jack’s RAAF inlistment records from memory; will stand corrected.
@AT,
The Keanes lived at 226 Glenlyon Road as per John Russell’s military records and this is from the 1941 electoral rolls. (I had a My Heritage subscription when I found it).
Division: Carlton
Subdivision: Edward
5909 Webb, Charles 226, Glenlyon rd. N. 11, fitter, M
Pat, JS,
I see 226 Glenlyon as being the 1940 address for the Keanes in Roy Webb’s “Grant of Probate” file on Family Search, but haven’t been able to find Charlie at that address on either My Heritage or Ancestry.
226 Glenlyon appears to be an apartment complex of about 12 units, each consisting of 1 bedrm. Were 4 (or more) people living in a 1-bedroom apt. at the time, or was the building subdivided later? Or were Charlie and the Keanes living in separate units in the same building?
@ AT,
I think I have found that electorall roll entry on My Heritage, as I don’t have subscriptions to Ancestry or FindMyPast, but maybe I found it when I had a free trial account.
I haven’t made it up 😁
Jo said:
‘The apartments currently at 226 Glenlyon Rd are post war, but it is a very large block, which is why I’m thinking boarding house, similar to Domain Road…’
The electoral roll entry says ‘N. 11’, that’s why I have assumed they were apartments, but maybe they were bigger than the current ones?
I don’t know why we all have assumed that the Keanes and Carl lived there at the same time, given that this electoral roll entry is for 1941.
Maybe it was after Nick has posted an ad from that address about a lost travelling certificate in 1940 and Jo thought it could be from a Freemason. One thing led to another, I reckon.
It’s good that you have asked about this, otherwise I wouldn’t have checked my post and noticed it was the 1941 electoral roll.
I wish I had saved or taken a snapshot of the picture. Anyway, it’s out there, we only have to look again.
But I have checked all the Webbs in the page and couldn’t find any other related to Carl.
At the time I posted I didn’t even made the connection with the Keanes address, Jo did.
It’s certain that the Keanes were there at least from August 1940 (as per Jonh Russell’s attestation form) to 26 Dec 1940 (Roy’s will).
Maybe they moved to Stewart Street and let Carl live in their apartment in 1941, just prior to his marriage.
I don’t know when the electoral roll for that year was published; that would be an important information to narrow down Carl’s whereabouts.
Sorry, I hit ‘Post Comment’ before pasting the mobilisation attestation form link, although I don’t know if it actually works.
The date is 16 Aug 1940.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6623569
And here is the link to my original post, just in case you haven’t been able to search [“site:ciphermysteries.com” glenlyon].
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/09/21/kevin-alexander-darcy-bute-or-boort#comment-472157
“Pat on October 5, 2022 at 12:39 am said:
@misca,
Thanks, now that makes sense.
Do we have a place for Carl aka Charles Webb in the 1941 electoral rolls? Is this him? Could this be his address before moving to 274 Domain rd with Doff? There’s no other Webb (that I could see) living at the same address.
Division: Carlton
Subdivision: Edward
5909 Webb, Charles 226, Glenlyon rd. N. 11, fitter, M”
According to this website http://victoriangenealogy.com.au/places/electoralrolls.html this information should be on My Heritage.
MYHERITAGE – AUSTRALIA ELECTORAL ROLLS 1893-1949
This includes Victorian electoral rolls for 1922, 1927, 1939, 1941 and 1946.
https://www.myheritage.com/research/collection-10744/?utm_source=partner_victoriangenealogy&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=victoriangenealogy_July21_textlink&tr_ad_group=textlinks&tr_funnel=supersearch
At: All I’m able to add to what’s been tabled is that when Jack Keane inlisted into the army 10th August 1940 he give his father’s address as being 226 Glenlyon Rd. East Brunswick, then upon transfer to RAAF on 10th October 1941 he gave dad’s address as 194 Stewart Street, Brunswick. Don’t know if that helps at all but it looks as if the Keane’s had moved and thàt Carl perhaps have took over the tenancy and that would coincide with Gerald’s long tour of NZ with the Borovanski Ballet from memory.
…Before I get caught out by some smart A…., the Borovanski 40 NZ tour was 44-45 sorry.
I can’t check it on Trove today (maintenance) but I have checked Sands&Mac.
Arthur G. Marr, who owned 226 Glenlyon Road East Brunswick in 1940, also owned 35 John Street Hawthorn in 1940, (East Side w/ Burwood Rd), just opposite (?) Swinburne Technical College (West side w/ Burwood Rd), which today is occupied by Swinburne University of Technology. What a coincidence? Or not?
Arthur Graham Marr, late of 35 John-street, Hawthorn, died in Oct 1944 in Sydney, and had served in the Merchant Navy. He was born in Edinburgh, Scotland, in 1879.
I have also checked Sands&Mac for guest houses at Glenlyon Rd and there were none in 1935, 1940, and 1944-45, so it’s probable that these were flats at 226 Glenlyon Rd.
Jo said:
‘Re Travelling Certificate – there was a federal election in September 1940, So this could be a match. I haven’t found if the certificates were still used then… in any case it would be interesting if it is Charlie’s as it indicates travel & movement, probably work related…’
https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/09/21/kevin-alexander-darcy-bute-or-boort#comment-472423
I don’t think the travelling certificate was Carl’s. I think it could be Gerald’s, because he would probably need one to travel to New Zealand with the J. C. Williamson’s troupe (or it could be someone else’s, of course), but Jo’s comment is interesting regarding the federal election in September 1940. Was the 1941 electoral roll based on this election? I have no idea how it works/worked.
Pat, JS,
We have proof that the Keanes were at 226 Glenlyon Rd., both in the link to Jack Keane’s “Mobile Attestation Form” Pat so kindly posted (It does work, BTW — Thanks!), and in Roy’s Probate Doc Jo alluded to on Family Search, but so far, no proof I’ve been able to find that C was living there w/ them. We also know from his marriage certificate that C was living at 274 Domain in 1941.
When I tried to look up C on My Heritage, I found the post below, which shocked me in its obvious inaccuracies. It has the correct birth and death dates for C, but says he was married to a woman he definitely was not. It also lists his name as “Charles,” which was not the name he was given at birth. This makes me question the accuracy of My Heritage in general. It looks like people are allowed to post information there that hasn’t been properly vetted. Is it possible that a person like the one Pat believes was posting inaccurate info on various sites was also posting on My Heritage?
https://imgur.com/a/IAYYfuD
Pat’s notes that Charlie was listed as living in “N.11” at the Glenlyon apartments lead me to believe she did see this post somewhere, and that the the apartments in 1940 were probably much the same in 1940 as they are today. (There are 12 of them today.) It’s possible C moved into those apartments when the Gerald (and maybe Freda also) was touring w/ the JC Williamson Co. We know that Gerald was away for part of 1940, IIRC, when he was “on a visit to his people” in Camperdown. He may have stayed in Adelaide w/ the theatre co. for part of that year also, which leads me to believe that C and Jack could have had the Glenlyon apt. to themselves for much of 1940, and maybe for part of ’39 and early ’41 also. But this is speculation until we can find the document Pat remembers seeing. Hopefully once we do, we can also verify its accuracy.
Pat,
The link you posted to [“site:ciphermysteries.com” glenlyon] worked perfectly. Thank you so much for that! I think I finally, at long last, know how to search this site (tho’ much scrolling is still needed, apparently, to access posts).
Among the thoughts I had after viewing the posts your link above led me to are the following. (Admittedly, they’re mostly speculative, but I couldn’t resist):
The Nov. 9, 1940 ad which Nick posted on Oct. 5, ’22, of a Chrysler G 70 Roadster that was for sale at 226 Glenlyon appears to have been first manufactured in late 1925. It’s a convertible that looks remarkably like the car that Charlie advertised for sale in Feb. ’42, tho’ made by a different car co. Both appear to have been snazzy-looking convertibles. Could Charlie have purchased the Chrysler after leaving school and starting work in late ’25 or ’26? If he was living at home, maybe he had the disposable income to do so. The car in the Glenlyon ad isn’t dated, so no way of knowing what year the car was made, but if it was purchased sometime after he left school, maybe C felt that by Nov. of 1940, it was time to upgrade and purchase the slightly-used ’37 Morris he later sold from the flat. The Chrysler was advertised as a “bargain,” which leads me to believe the owner may have felt the car wouldn’t last much longer.
Interestingly, the “Mobilization Attestation” doc you posted for Jack Keane says he was a “truck driver” in Aug. of 1940, not a mechanic. (Haven’t looked again at the dates when he was a “mechanic”, tho’.) This made me wonder if C might not have gotten the Morris he later sold at the flat from Jack after all, and could have purchased it on his own as a replacement for the Chrysler he’d bought earlier.
Glenlyon ad Nick found:
https://imgur.com/a/LipAgpJ
Example of 1926 Chrysler G70:
https://imgur.com/a/87p958M
Example of same make, model, and year as car C was selling from Bromby St:
https://imgur.com/a/FUIp3bT
@ AT,
You said:
“When I tried to look up C on My Heritage, I found the post below, which shocked me in its obvious inaccuracies. It has the correct birth and death dates for C, but says he was married to a woman he definitely was not. It also lists his name as “Charles,” which was not the name he was given at birth. This makes me question the accuracy of My Heritage in general. It looks like people are allowed to post information there that hasn’t been properly vetted. Is it possible that a person like the one Pat believes was posting inaccurate info on various sites was also posting on My Heritage?”
“Pat’s notes that Charlie was listed as living in “N.11” at the Glenlyon apartments lead me to believe she did see this post somewhere, and that the the apartments in 1940 were probably much the same in 1940 as they are today.”
The record of Charles Webb at 226 Glenlyon Road N.11, fitter, M., is from a photo of the actual 1941 electorall roll record, not a family tree (private or public).
It also has the entries for other Webbs, none related to Carl.
All the electoral rolls’ entries found for him so far say ‘Charles’, not ‘Carl’ (according to Nick Pelling and previous commenter misca).
I don’t trust family trees on any website, unless they have provided the source of the information.
Regarding the 16 F eb 1942 ad for the 1937 Morris 8/40, 4 months after their marriage, it’s possible that this car also belonged to John Russell and later to Carl (‘2 private owners’), ‘inspection after 6’ (definitely working), ‘£110 cash only’. I wonder if he bought another car or spent the money on furniture for the new flat?
Oops, forgot to ask (probably a stupid question):
How can the
“CHRYSLER G70 Roadster, excellent order, well shod, reg. Octo 41. Bargain. £47/10 226 Glenlyon Rd., East Brunswick, FW564”
ad of 9 Nov 1940 have ‘reg. Octo 41’ ?
Pat,
Good to know that the entry you found was a photo. My Heritage, which I think is where you first said you might have seen it, doesn’t appear to have photo entries, so perhaps you didn’t see it there. I made a preliminary attempt to find it in the comprehensive list you posted of possible sources, but haven’t been able to so far. I believe that list will be a Godsend to me in the future, as my sources up to now have been painfully limited due to my own lack of knowledge regarding how and where to get good info. (I’ve also been reluctant to register on websites that require a lot of personal info in order to access them.)
Re “the entries for other Webbs, none related to Carl”: Were those other Webb entries also listed at 226 Glenlyon? Are you thinking that the “Charles” listed there could be a different one than our C? If the listing appeared in ’41 but not in ’40, perhaps that’s an indication as well that it could be a different C?
I agree that the car C sold from the flat could also have belonged to Jack, and that he C could have sold it to buy furniture (or even another car, as you suggest). Just wanted to put another possibility out there, fanciful tho’ it might be.
Am assuming the “reg. Octo ’41” for the Chrysler might mean that’s the date the registration expires. That date jumped out at me as possibly being significant, since that’s the month C got married, but it’s probably just an odd coincidence (one of so many in this story)!
@pat,
In the UK someone would say the car was taxed for 12 months and had a new MOT. I suspect ‘Oct 41 means the same,
@AT,
My Heritage has photos of the original electoral rolls. Here’s the one you need to access.
https://mimgur.com/a/J6nBukD
https://www.myheritage.com/research/collection-10744/australia-electoral-rolls-1893-1949?action=query&formId=collection_10744:searchFormDef&formMode=1&useTranslation=1&tr_id=m_s7snoamnb7_4xx985qhbo&qname=Name+fn.Charles+ln.Webb+fnmo.1&qevents-event1=Event+et.any+ep.Australia+epmo.similar&qevents=List&initialFormIds=master
@ David Morgan,
Thanks, I thought as much but I have checked other ads for cars and all they say is ‘reg.’. I’d say it’s a typo, it should have been Oct 1940, which would mean very recently registered, and the implication would be that the person was a sort of car dealer, like Prosper Thomson.
Where I’m from Dave, you by a car any car, new or used, transfer it to your name, then drive off and she’s your’n tax free forever and no need for MOTs. In saying all that I don’t own a car so I’m missing out on a great deal; what I didn’t mention is cars ain’t all that cheap as import taxes are about the same as Australia.
@ Pat
Certainly in the old Trading Post days, if I remember correctly, we always used to say when the vehicle was registered until. It’s quite possible that you could have purchased registration for 6 or 12 months (these days in SA it’s 3 or 12 months), so the start date for rego is meaningless.
@ Lurch,
Thanks! So Carl had enough money in 1940 to pay for a 6-12 month registration fee.
I’m trying to figure out what he was doing in 1940 to make money. I understand Red Point Tool wasn’t fully functional by then, n’est-ce pas?
@ All,
Some commenters have said more than once that Carl married Doff to avoid war conscription, but as I understand it his occupation (electrical fitter, instrument maker) was amongst the ‘fully reserved’ ones.
The Daily Telegraph (Sydney, NSW : 1931 – 1954)
Sat 14 Mar 1942
Page 6
NEW LIST OF RESERVED OCCUPATIONS: THOUSANDS TO BE CALLED UP BY ARMY
GROUP No. 1 — These industries Are Fully Reserved
ELECTRICAL ARTICLES MANUFACTURE.
—Manager, foreman, electrical fitter, electri
cal mechanic, armature winder (all ages);
ELECTRICITY GENERATION AND SUP
PLY. — Manager, foreman, battery fitter, elec
trical fitter, electrical mechanic, shift elec
trician (all ages);
ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION. — Manager,
foreman, armature winder, cable jointer,
draftsman, electrical erector, electrical fitter,
electrical mechanic, electrical wireman, trans
former winder (all ages);
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247917391?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FD%2Ftitle%2F1347%2F1942%2F03%2F14%2Fpage%2F27300893%2Farticle%2F247917391#
@ AT,
Sorry the imgur link was wrong, but it doesn’t matter. I hope you can access the link to MyHeritage and find the entry. There are many of them for Charles Webb in 1941 (16 pages).
The electoral rolls list people alphabetically, so in that same page there are other Webbs and I couldn’t find any of them that was related to Carl living at Glenlyon Road. Sorry if my wording is confusing (not a native English speaker).
I think the 1941 electoral roll is not specific to Victoria, it’s listed as Australia, possibly because there was a federal election scheduled for September 1941?
@ AT,
Just realised I have posted the link for My Heritage in Portuguese! Here’s the link in English.
(Sorry Nick!)
https://www.myheritage.com/research?s=1&formId=collection_10744:searchFormDef&formMode=1&useTranslation=1&exactSearch=&colId=10744&p=1&action=query&view_mode=card&qname=Name+fn.charles+fnmo.1+ln.webb+lnmo.3
@JS,
I may be the only person who had to pay import duty to take my European car back into Europe. I was surrounded in a petrol station in Veldhoven by armed border officers and told to pay the duty. I tried to trade it in but a local garage owner called at my door and told me not to buy the car I had seen and so then I had to pay them for not buying a car (dutch rules). When I got back to the UK I sold it with the original plates in the back because they wanted me to pay import duty again. The UK garage owner simply swapped the plates. The new owner was the receptionist at my dentist 100 yards down the road. I left a note on her/my car saying I had the other keys. She seemed to sell it quickly. I could have driven it off and swapped the plates back to NL plates as it was obviously illegal just to swap the plates back to UK plates.
@ Lurch,
He was advertising the car on 9 Nov 1940. If the registration was until Oct 1941 (12-month registration) it means he was selling the car just after paying for a 12-month registration, right?
That sounds like he wasn’t planning to sell it, but needed the money asap, hence the ‘bargain’.
Maybe it was John Russell just after his enllistement in August 1940.
@pat,
There was the issue of petrol coupons. It was a big issue in the Pyjama girl case that Dr Palmer-Benbow was sailing around in his big Packard investigating the case and getting fuel from the police during WW2. People couldn’t get the fuel for their car.
@pat,
I noticed “well shod” seems to go with Chrysler.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102496206?searchTerm=%22chrysler%22%2C%20%22well%20shod%22
Mr. A.P.Webb.
Pat,
Thanks so much for posting all the My Heritage links. I wasn’t able to access them w/out creating an account, but by logging into my library account, managed to get the info. Your links gave me a very necessary education in how to search “My Heritage” in the process, so much gratitude to you for that! In case anybody wants to see the listing, here it is:
https://imgur.com/a/2ylN5xH
Re Carl’s having money for car reg: Red Point was up and running by Sept. 1940, having opened probably in the months before, according to the link below. Carl could have started working there earlier that year, which means he would have had money to pay for the car’s reg (and possibly also the slightly-used Morris that could have replaced it — if indeed he had purchased the Morris and it wasn’t given to him by Jack or someone else). Also, we don’t know for sure who was selling the Chrysler; it’s possible it was for sale by another tenant at 226 Glenlyon. If only we had an apt. or room # for the other Keanes at that address, and/or for the seller of that car!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244454419
@ AT,
You can search for the Keanes at 226 Glenlyon Road on My Heritage as well, I reckon! As I said before, at the time I had a subscription I didn’t make the connection with the Keanes living at the same address, and no one seemed to be interested and digging deeper into this.
@ AT,
Carl was listed as fitter in the 1941 electoral roll. If he was already working at Red Point Tool, that means he made his career as an instrument maker thanks to William Peter Sher, who also gave a job to Dunera Boy, Ernst Winter. Did he know Carl (aka Charles) was half German?
It is worth exploring AI – but only MS Copilot e,g,
Yes, you’re correct. John Russell Keane was an Australian pilot who served in the Royal Australian Air Force during World War II. He was born on 3 September 1917 in Camperdown, Victoria, Australia, the son of Gerald Thomas Keane and Freda Grace (Webb) Keane.
On 29 November 1943, he was piloting a Lockheed Hudson AM694 during a non-operational bombing exercise over Lough Neagh. The plane lost height rapidly during a series of steep turns over Loughermore Estate near Dunadry, County Antrim, Northern Ireland. The port wing struck the ground, and the plane burst into flames, killing all on board.
John Keane is remembered for his service and is buried in Eglantine Church of Ireland Cemetery, County Down, Ireland. His death was a tragic loss, and he is commemorated for his bravery and service during the war.
John Russell Keane’s father was Gerald Thomas Keane, born in 1889 in Ballarat East, Victoria, Australia. He married Freda Grace Webb, the sister of Carl Webb, in 1915 in Victoria, Australia. Gerald and Freda had three children: Leo Vivian Keane (born in 1915), John Russell Keane (born in 1917), and Gwendoline Mary Keane (born in 1919).
Gerald Thomas Keane was known as Jerry Keane and worked with J. C. Williamson for over twenty years. He was involved in stage productions, including a J. C. Williamson production of “Victoria Regina” that ran from 1937 to 1938. Gerald passed away in 1960 in Fitzroy, Victoria, at the age of 70.
Leo Vivian Keane was born in 1915 in Camperdown, Victoria, Australia. He was the son of Gerald Thomas Keane and Freda Grace (Webb) Keane. He married Irene Emily Gray in 1942 in Victoria. Leo Vivian Keane passed away on 12 September 2005 at the age of 89. He is buried at the Springvale Botanical Cemetery in Springvale, Greater Dandenong City, Victoria, Australia.
Freda Grace Keane, born Freda Grace Webb in 1896 in Dandenong, Victoria, Australia, was the wife of Gerald Thomas Keane and the mother of Leo Vivian Keane, John Russell Keane, and Gwen (Keane) Dickinson. She passed away in 1964 at about the age of 68 in Murrumbeena, Victoria, Australia. Her death notice was published in The Age, a Melbourne newspaper.
It didn’t have details on Gwen other than born 1919 in Camperdown and married Dickinson.
Curious that wikitree says No known carriers of Freda’s DNA have taken a DNA test.
How did they do the mtDNA test with the Webb family?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205968879?searchTerm=226%20glenlyon%20road
11 year old Margaret Eddy living at 226 Glenlyon Road in 1939.
There are lots of ads for rooms vacant in 1934, serarching Trove under “226 Glenlyon Rd”. I assumed it was a large house in which rooms were let. The reference flats begins in the 1960s, probably when the current building was built.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword.phrase=226%20glenlyon%20rd
Pat,
I’ll try and see if I can find the Keanes on Glenlyon thru My Heritage if I have some extra time. Am a little pressed at the moment.
Good point about C being listed as a fitter, not an instrument maker, on the ’41 rolls. I was under the impression that when he started at Red Point, he’d graduated to instrument maker and that the drills Red Point made (and perhaps also the sirens) were what accounted for C’s upgraded career title. Perhaps he didn’t receive the upgraded title until after he was at Red Point for a while — maybe a year or so. I also wonder if he didn’t show up on the electoral rolls until after Jack left for the war and/or the Keanes moved to 194 Stewart St. Maybe it wasn’t until C was the sole occupant of the room on Glenlyon that his name finally appeared on the rolls as being there in ’41.
Re your question about whether Sher knew C was half-German: I hope Sher (and/or C’s co-workers) weren’t punishing C for being half-German. I’ve wondered if C could have been bullied as a boy due to his German roots, and if that’s why he changed his name early on. Perhaps early childhood (and even adult) bullying could have caused some of the depression and loneliness he might have been suffering from. Poor guy!
Jo,
I read some older posts you wrote in which you thought the Glenlyon address could have been a boarding house. I think you could be right. The references to “good table” and “washing,” etc., indicate as much. The absence of flat #s (w/ the exception of the “N.11” on C’s ’41 listing) also suggest this. Boarding houses in Australia, I’ve learned, differed from those in America and were, instead, considered safe, respectable, and even desirable places to live. Many women (and single men) apparently welcomed them as it freed them from household chores like cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry. I wonder what the difference in cost would have been between living in a place like this vs. sharing a flat with someone, as C later did w/ D. I also wonder what could have prompted C to move to 274 Domain and how long he was there.
Carl’s move to Domain Road – as Dorothy didn’t mention it perhaps it never happened. Perhaps they both lied on the marriage cert like saying they lived at Buckingham Palace.
Alternatively, Dorothy’s dad was the gardener/caretaker and he let them stay there in his room and they drove around in their borrowed Keane’s flashy roadster with tennis clothing on to look the part. When John Russell was dead perhaps the dream was over and the car got sold. The quarrels of Bromby st. awaited.
Job-wise perhaps Carl was an electrical fitter – fixing broken stuff like radios or even working on cars. Electrical instrument maker – making stuff with boxes – like sirens.
@ AT,
N.11 was not an apartment number, it’s the postal code!
https://imgur.com/a/ZOujf8U
So, although it wasn’t a registered guest house, it was probably a boarding house as Jo has been saying all this time, well done again, Jo!
David Morgan,
I believe both Carl and Dorothy are listed on the marriage certificate (?) or perhaps a wedding register as living on Domain.
My theory is that Carl and Jack worked together before Jack became a mechanic, and that C was mentoring him in the electrical field. I think C could have worked at AWA, the Australian (or Australasian) Wireless Association, doing radio work. IIRC, Jack is listed as having worked there as an “electrical fitter’s assistant.”
My hope is that C wasn’t forced to sell the Morris because he felt pressure to do so from D. If the car had belonged to Jack and was a gift to C from him, I imagine the guilt C might have felt at selling it shortly before Jack’s death could have been tremendous! Perhaps the car had been a much-loved memento to C from Jack of happy times they’d spent together.
————
Pat,
Re “N.11 was not an apartment number, it’s the postal code!”:
How clever you are for having figured that out! I never would have.
And yes, well done to both you and Jo!
@ AT,
When you have time to look for the Keanes in the 1941 electoral roll, would you please look at Dorothy Jean Robertson as well?
When I had a subscription I was just a newbie in the SM affair, maybe I didn’t check it because I must have assumed she was already married to Carl and living at Domain Road, but if Carl was at Glenlyon Road this must have been before October 1941.
I don’t know which was the minimum age for being listed. If it was 21 and if this was before July 1941, maybe Doff isn’t there, but it’s definitely worth checking out.
In the marriage certificate Carl’s occupation is ‘instrument maker’.
If he is the Charles Webb, fitter, at 226 Glenlyon Road in 1941 and an instrument maker in Oct 1941, does that mean he was both fitter and instrument maker, or he was a fitter in early 1941 and an instrument maker in later 1941, or was the electoral roll for 1941 actually compiled in 1940?
This is interesting, regarding fitters/instrument makers.
Border Watch (Mount Gambier, SA : 1861 – 1954)
Tue 6 Aug 1940
Page 4
FITTERS IN THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE
While it is generally realised that
fitters are urgently required for the
Royal Australian Air Force, the
meaning of the term as applied to
the service is not always understood,
even in engineering circles.
Employers are naturally reluctant to lose
good tradesmen whom they feel are
being employed on work of national
importance unless they are given
information to help them to appreciate
that some sacrifice on their part is
justified. While the importance of
maintaining production in all sections
of the metal trades, particularly on
munitions and allied work, is fully
realised, there can be no more urgent
work for fitters at the present time
than that of the Royal Australian
Air Force, where a certain necessary
percentage of highly skilled
tradesmen must be maintained.
Fitters in the Royal Australian Air
Force are employed in several different
categories, known as musterings
and a description of the work in each
mustering is of interest to employers
and potential applicants.
Instrument makers are probably
the highest grade fitters used in the
service and they are trained from
the ranks of those skilled in fine
fitting work, such as jig and tool
makers.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/78100539#
@ Pat – I’m pretty sure I looked through the electoral rolls when I had an Ancestry subscription. Voting was made compulsory in 1924 but the voting age was only lowered from 21 to 18 in 1973. I’m still puzzled why there don’t seem to be any records for Dorothy after 1949.
Sorry to rain on your supposition parade AT but, I can find no evidence of Jack Keane ever having been employed as an electrical assistant at AWA (Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Ltd.) only that he was known well to a Mr. Charles Williams, storeman who did. That about right?
@ Jo,
Thanks! The 1941 electoral roll is not available on Ancestry. That’s why I want AT to check it on MyHeritage. If it was compiled after 18 July, Dorothy would be 21 and maybe she’s there. Fingers crossed.
If the 1941 electoral roll refers to municipal elections, there’s a chance that Dorothy will be there, as it was held on 30 Aug 1941.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 – 1957)
Mon 1 Sep 1941
Page 3
APATHY IN COUNCIL ELECTIONS
APATHY IN COUNCIL
ELECTIONS
Elections were held in several
metropolitan municipalities on Saturday,
but ratepayers generally were
very apathetic. This was particularly
so at Heidelberg and Preston,
where only about 30% of those on
the rolls went to the polling booths. (…)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8201998?searchTerm=elections#
Pat,
Re: “When you have time to look for the Keanes in the 1941 electoral roll, would you please look at Dorothy Jean Robertson as well?” — Yes, I’ll try. Am pressed for time now tho’, and researching takes me forever!
I don’t believe C would have been both fitter and instrument maker at the same time. If he started at Red Point in ’40 as a fitter and was elevated to instrument maker in ’41 after the rolls were printed, it could account for why he was listed on the ’41 rolls as being still a fitter.
C could have been at Glenlyon for the first part of ’41 but moved to Domain later that year.
——-
Jo,
Derek Abbott opined once that the reason we haven’t found records for D post ’49 or so is because she could have remarried. We know she did so in the early ‘50s and it took us awhile to discover her w/ her newly-married name. I’m wondering if that and the fact that she seemed to move around and was living in different states could also play a role in why we haven’t been able to find her. If she was couch-surfing or staying w/ relatives and/or friends and wasn’t working, those things could account for her elusiveness as well.
——-
JS,
I’ll see if I can find the doc where I saw the reference to Jack at AWA. (Hope I didn’t connect dots when I shouldn’t have!) Am short on time at the moment, so it may take me awhile.
How come Mr. C. Webb had an ‘amusements’ business at 384 High Street Northcote in 1940 without publishing any ads between 1939 and 1941?
Unless he is the C. Webb who played for the ‘St. Kilda Army and Navy Club’ in the billiards championships in 1939, although in 1938 he (or another Webb) was mentioned as C. T. Webb.
Can someone search for a C. Webb at Northcote in the 1939-1941 electoral rolls?
Enid Wall was likely involved in the WAAAF recruiting centre which was situated in Prahran at Maples corner
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245128713?searchTerm=%22maples%20corner%22%2C%20%22prahran%22
With RedPoint tools saying they are near Maples.
https://imgur.com/gallery/4lRPqxM
It is likely Carl saw/knew of Enid Wall at the WAAAF recruiting centre. I could easily imagine the engineers ‘wolf-whistling’ at the windows as the WAAAFs strolled by. I saw similar behaviour at an engineering factory in my teens. Perhaps Carl engineered bumping into Enid and Dorothy as they walked by inviting them to some social event impressing his fellow factory workers and pulling up in his/Jack’s roadster to seal the deal.
Was C. Webb, amusements, of Northcote, advertising ‘situations vacant’ for the Spider Webb Cabaret?
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Fri 25 Aug 1939
Page 21
Advertising
GIRL. cloakroom; 11 a.m. Spider Webb
Cabaret. Fisherman’s Bend.
WAITRESS, after 11 a.m. Spider Webb
Cabaret. Fisherman’s Bend.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204929182?searchTerm=%22spider%20webb%20cabaret%22#
The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 – 1954)
Fri 25 Aug 1939
Page 22
Advertising
ORCHESTRA, 4 piece, Spider Webb Caba-
ret. After 11 a.m. Fisherman’s Bend.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204929176?searchTerm=%22amusements%22%20%22webb%22%20%22northcote%22#
Like Carl, I studied Engineering but I also attended an evening class in English literature and like Carl had to analyse poetry. I was in a confusing personal place at the time and my dad (like Carl) had a business that was a problem. In Carl’s case it was because his dad was sick and dying and he was torn between the family bakery business loyalty and his own engineering destination.
Possibly like Carl, as the educated older child stuck at home, the lot fell on me to process my dad’s business accounts. In my case for VAT purposes. At that time I had become obsessed with future machines and bought a programmable calculator and used it to perform VAT calculations so it gave me the VAT amounts. I didn’t have to think after I created my program. It was number in, write down answers given for the VAT book.
In Carl’s day he would have wanted a Remington Accounting machine. But there would have been few available in Australia, In this theft the people took the car and the machine but dumped the car.
https://imgur.com/gallery/cF3lzbP
But who was A,C. Turner the importer who had the vision to own one in 1932? I’m certain Carl the engineer would have been dreaming of such a machine to add up the numbers for his dad’s bakery business accounts so he could get back to his engineering study or RoK poetry.
@AT… It’s OK I’ve been through all 132 pages of John Keane’s service records and am able to confirm that he never worked for AWA. So sure looks very much like “you connected dots when you shouldn’t have” and Charles Webb was not his mentor as you might have hoped for.
If the white tie belonged to Gerald Keane, no wonder the person who wrote his name on it (assuming this person would be a laundry employee or owner) had difficulty deciphering his first name initial.
https://imgur.com/a/34430Od
@Pat,
The way Rich A writes his Webb has that little flag on the W. I thought that was supposed to be a French thing from the Isdal Woman plot?
It also reminds me of the W in the Somerton Man code.
https://imgur.com/gallery/asHBlBR
Did Carl sign for his dad? The Rich A thing is almost a teenage idea. Did he really sign Rich A?
https://imgur.com/gallery/asHBlBR
His b’s also look like Roy’s. Yet his education should have been Hamburg not Melbourne.
@ Pat
Is this Richard Webb’s will and/or probate document? It seems that two of the the son in-laws are the executors and/or witnesses? Gerald Keane & Leslie Scott…
@ Jo,
Yes. Gerald signed with a peculiar G, n’est-ce pas?