Pretty much everyone and their dog now knows about the mysterious white tie (marked “J Keane” or “T Keane”, depending how you interpret the markings on it) found in the Somerton Man’s suitcase in Adelaide’s railway station. And everyone seems to have a theory about that same wretched tie (heaven knows I’ve posted more than enough times on this sorry subject myself).
But just to prove that, like Homer Simpson, I’ve learnt nothing from that whole experience, here’s yet another white tie theory to throw on the same miserable bonfire.
Does the white tie mean that Carl Webb (the Somerton Man) was… a fake Mason?
The Craft Baker
Even though his father, baker Richard August Webb, was a member of Malvern Lodge No. 121, nobody has yet found any evidence suggesting that Carl Webb himself was a Mason.
To be fair, Freemasonry was always (and indeed still is) an older man’s game: a quick glance at the adverts in modern glossy Freemason magazines will likely yield not lifestyle tips but “deathstyle” retirement home chic. So it should be no huge surprise if, as a younger man, Carl Webb had failed to follow his father’s floury footsteps into The Craft.
Of course, I’d like to look at the member list of Malvern Lodge No. 121 just as much as anyone else with half an interest in this whole cold case: but I have a hunch he wasn’t himself a properly paid up Mason.
The Keane Mason?
Were there other Masons in his family? Researchers commenting here have been getting a little excited of late by the connection between Carl Webb’s late brother Roy (d. 1943) and the Gavey family via Roy’s wife.
The Gaveys had some bad ‘uns, for sure: and they also had enduring links to the Masons. (I’ll leave disentangling the two as an exercise for the reader.)
But I wonder… might Carl Webb’s closest practical link to the Masons have actually been via the Keane family? He was certainly close to the Keanes: he was, as Jo pointed out, living with the Keanes prior to getting married. And it was Carl Webb’s family link to Gerald Thomas Keane that famously made the hair on Derek Abbott’s arms verticalise.
It’s therefore entirely possible that Carl Webb’s nephew John Russell Keane was the original owner of the mysterious white tie, even if it wasn’t in the list of possessions returned to his family after his untimely death during the War.
So… was this also a Masonic tie? This isn’t itself a new suggestion, but that’s actually only the first half of what I’m wondering here.
Out Of Sight, Out Of Pocket?
Anyway, if you recall Carl Webb’s timeline, he seems to have disappeared in late 1947, very possibly to become invisible to the wife he was separated from (and who had got a support order served on him at his job at Red Point Tool Co. in April 1947, of which he angrily wanted to avoid paying a penny).
Looking at the suitcase found after his death in December 1948, there’s no affluence to the rag-tag mix of clothes there. Whatever he was doing (and if that turns out to have involved interstate car smuggling, I suspect few would now raise so much as a jaded eyebrow), it doesn’t seem to have been paying well.
Hence, I suspect that during 1948, Carl Webb was both out of sight and out of pocket. And despite having lived in Melbourne all his life, he ended up dead on an Adelaide beach. (Though clothed, not the raw Prahranian.)
So I wonder: while travelling round Australia, doing whatever it was he was doing, might Carl Webb have been passing himself off as a Keane family Mason, visiting from a Melbourne lodge, to scam some Masonic hospitality?
Might he have been passing himself off as his late nephew Jack Russell?
Nick: some more thoughtful comments later but first, I have to give you a quick Strine briefing on Prahran and it’s pronunciations:
“Pran” – to most locals
“Purrann” – rolled “r”, strong “n” – to the many Greek boys who grew up in the area
“Pur-ra-ran” – the original Boonwurrung reference to the area, as land surrounded by water
Nothing resembling a punned prawn! Though some of the best in town can be procured at Pran Market!
Although Charlie lived in nearby Bromby Street, South Yarra, it is in Prahran that you can really feel the spirit of the 1930s and 40s, the gangsters, desperadoes, the Masons… It’s a wonderful place! The Domain area of South Yarra, it’s more establishment, genteel, a bit bohemian, a bit try hard – it’s more of a signals intelligence kind of neighbourhood… I truly love them both, interesting histories & stories to be told wherever you turn!
It looks like the first letter is Hebrew. When you look at the Tetragrammaton of God’s name. So the sign is there.
The name on the tie could be related to Cain and Abel.
Nick Pelling: Almost out of the question imo. I thought you might have taken note of my recent post on this latest Bowes inspired nonsense lodge theory, wherein I tried to get the message to supportive commenters ie., that Gerald Thomas Keane, as a pracising papist, could have no lawful place in any Feemason Lodge according to strict Masonic rites. Same goes for Catholics too, vis-a-vis “The Catholic Church’s current norm on Masonic associztions is the 1983 CDF Declaration (based on historical Masonic law)”. The CDF declaration states that any true Catholics “who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion”. Taken from “The Papal Ban of Freemasonry” – Wikpedia.
….and to those who, for want of better knowledge don’t place any reliance upon Wikipedia facts, I can site numerous similar historical, on line references to long standing distrust and ongoing mutual ill will between Catholics and Freemasons.
John Sanders … understand one word: schism.
Yeah mate. Catholics and Masons hate each other.
EXCEPT FOR CATHOLIC MASONS.
I know you’ve probably gone troppo in French Indochina but please try to do a little more hardcore research before you post.
How much agent orange did you eat? Do you love Gough for getting you out?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/152332860?searchTerm=%22GERALD%20KEANE%22
same gerald keane?
Em: very interesting find! I’m sure there’s more to be found on this story…
See also https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22981075
For people working in the theatre etc, Victoria had Thespian Lodge No 232 and Orpheus Lodge No 393.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204402393?searchTerm=Travelling%20Certificate%20226%20glenlyon
It looks as though someone at the Keane’s 226 Glenlyon Road home was a Mason in 1940. The lost travelling certificate is likely to be a Freemasons certificate that could be presented to other lodges and masons. This was found and discussed by Pat some time ago and is partly what put the Masons on my radar…
The description “working man” could be Charlie, Jack or Gerald. (Jack enlisted in 1941).
@ Nick – when you point out that the Masons is for old blokes it needs to be pointed out that many of the old blokes joined when they were young – eg one bloke in Victoria, born in 1919, received his 80 year jewell this week. John Ivor Gavey, past Grand Master of the Lodge of Euclid in Prahran was a Mason for 77 years…
It’s a bit like visiting Leicester and concluding that punk is old ladies’ music on the basis that we’ve been singing “Bondage up yours!” since our school days!
https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/feb/07/loud-dirty-and-simple-leicesters-punk-collective-for-older-women
A funeral tie?
https://johnhenric.com/gb/white-tie-plain/
When Farage first appeared on the scene in the UK I checked his business address (companies house). By chance, his home was directly opposite a lodge. What are the chances he wasn’t a freemason?
I wondered whether they owned property – like rooms to rent. Those lodges are like churches empty most of the time.
Or a US WW2 era white tie Summer uniform?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125578469405
Guess @Mike O’leary in his letter to Camperdown Herald 14 August, 1915 and, in particular his reference to VC winners Messrs Burke, Kelly and O’Shea, must have
been mistruthing or else speaking metaphorically. There were no VC recipients having such names prior to the pubication date or since (?), so what was that all about. If in fact the Garald Keane in question was Carl Webb’s brother-in-law, the dismissal must have predated commencement his thirty year stint as machinist with J.C. Williamson entertainment.
The Freemasons seem fond of the bow ties …. it probably is Jack Keane’s though, maybe something to do with his skating, you could wear anything on the rink, much like the golf course, anything goes …. random guess to add to the mix.
US Army Air Corps 1942 Uniform
https://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/stories-of-honor-late-wwii-gunner-eugene-moran-survives-fall-from-the-air-pow-camps/article_30670b0a-1c9d-11ed-bcb2-cf978b1f9449.html
PeterBowes: so you think I might have been better off inserting “Schism” and in so doing dispensed with unecessary verbage!
Has anyone been able to find a funeral notice for Gerald Keane? If he was a Mason at the time of his death there would likely be a notice from the Freemasons… I’m assuming it would be unlikely based on JS’ comments re Masons & Catholics.
I guess its worth noting that the Freemasons SA main lodge and headquarters at 254 North terrace was at the time and still is a 3 minute walk from the Adelaide railway station where Carl stored his belongings
…..also couldn’t help but note that Mike O’Leary mentions Gerald Keane being sole carer for an aged mother. In fact his mum Emma Ann was only fifty four in 1915 and still had another thirty three years of her life to run. As for the young wife, not only was she young at nineteen, Freda Webb was also a new addition to the Keane household, the couple having been married in 1915 as well. Is it possible that there be another Gerald Keane who was caretaker at the Mechanics Institute?
If Farage were a Mason do you think he would be attempting to unwind the greatest international Masonic joke of them all?
Josef Zlatodej Prof,
There was a time when the first letter on the Keane tie was said by some on the panel to be a Hebrew L. or perhaps the number seven but this was overuled with discovery that the signature matched that of a certain pair of likely lads name of Thomas Keane. To their chagrin the suspects were eventually ruled out is being persons of interest when one was found to have redeceased Somerton Man and the other outlived him. Things have changed since those heady days and now the smart money suggests the initial be J. for Jack Keane, a young pilot of Irish Catholic roots who died during WW2 in Ireland. Seems Jack’s undyed herringbone pattern Freemasons necktie somehow turned up in a suitcase left at Adelaide S.A. railway station on 30 November 1948 by a certain Carl Webb what just happened to be dead Jack’s flocken uncle no less. Now the case rests with being able to determine whether the initial on the tie be a Hebrew L. or an Irish T. I guess it may depend to some extent on whether Hebrews and Irish have periods and or who had first pick.
……then again Joseph, if at the end of deliberations, the surname turns out to be Keanic (Bulgarian) as the Egyptian butcher suggested, my own Keanie (Gailic) pick, or indeed something else entirely, then all bets are off and we can all go back to where the mystery began.
Tuesday 20 August 1918 at a special meeting of the Junior FC there was a large attendance at Traralgon Mechanics Hall…..The President stated the reason for the meeting, and Mr. C. Webb said the first reason for the requisition was that a man had played over 22 years of age…..A pretty long drawn out story with C. Webb the unyielding chief antagonist that anyone, so interested can find at page four of the Traralgon Record 24 Aug. 1918. Not at all likely this is our Carl, just one more of a host of junior football playing C. Webbs scattered throughout Victorian regional newspapers; Needless to say none being identical with our own C. Webb who was mostly on the injured list.
It occurred to me that a long white tie might have quite different implications. That is, as early as the 1920s/30s, some edgy young dandies clearly took to the combination of light coloured tie and dark coloured shirt – a reversal, obviously of the normal state of affairs. (Not to be confused with high formal wear called “white tie”, i.e. white _bowties_ with white _shirts_ and dark suits.) While there was a perhaps stronger association, at the time, with jazz music, the combination of white tie and black shirt has since, perhaps, become more associated with – even a cliché of – stereotypical gangster wear While I have struggled to find pics of (e.g.) Louis Armstrong, Clark Gable or Al Capone wearing long white ties – pics of anonymous young men of the twenties and thirties wearing such items are certainly out there. (Young men unlikely to have been Freemasons, that is.)
the Dude747: I paid a visit to the Freemasons on North Terrace a few years ago.
Interesting place, the individual I met, made sure that the other two in the same office were aware I was not one of them!, make that what you will.
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/295971006770666115/
Lots of white ties to be seen on Pinterest using “1930s Summer suit” or similar as search terms – Pat & Furphy are on the ball!
Jo: alas, modern ideas of what people wore in the 1930s are often quite fanciful, so Pinterest may be more of a problem than a solution. :-/
Furphy: but alas there was no black shirt in the suitcase…
Jo: your ball seems to have just been deflated by the moderator thankfully!
@Nick
That suitcase belonged to Carl, not all of Jack’s clothes would be there. Maybe Carl didn’t wear the tie, it could have been a memento of his nephew and pal.
A white necktie can also be worn with a white shirt on weddings…
could it be they gave him what ever they had and popped it in the suitcase? A white tie can be for anything formal….the black shirt could have been in another suitcase. We still don’t know where he was staying and if he had more luggage why only deposit the one at the station
As a Catholic, maybe Jack (or Gerald) was one of the bodyguard men wearing white tie and white gloves, at the Eucharistic Procession on May 1934.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171809069?searchTerm=%22white%20tie%22%20eucharistic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/81991336?searchTerm=%22travelling%20certificate%22
Adelaide had Thespian Lodge No 195
Pat: I went through the two suitcases’ lists of contents, and there didn’t seem to be any significant overlap.
@ Nick
Can you post a link to the original description of the suitcases contents? Or maybe tell us what they said about this particular tie?
John Sanders. Well then, yes. The suicide suitcase is interesting. It would like to find out the color of the thread. Who made the monogram on the tie? There was red color thread in the trunk. Or she was a redhead. If the color matched the monogram on the tie. So to find out the corpse in question could sew on the beach? And why the color?
Some randoms:
– Henley Beach has a Mason Hall on South Tce possibly sharing a yard with St Michael’s & All Angels (Anglican) Church (a little way from where the HB Railway Station would have been)
– Glenelg has MacDonnell Masonic Hall is High St Glenelg – Right next door to Our Lady of Victories Church (Roman Catholic) (NB: This is the church School that has been discussed in the past re Beaumont children)
– There’s others near churches of varying denominations – not sure if that’s a result of similar zoning or something else….
– There seems to be a bit of freemasonry linked to Broken Hill (they even have a pub called the Freemason’s Hotel) – just in case we want to keep a Pruzinski link
Hypotheticals:
Suppose Webb has looked up the Henley hall for some reason, and then is told “I think the Mick’s would more likely go to Glenelg”. What if the ‘business number’ wasn’t a bank, but was a Hall or Hostel?
Is there a Prosper/Harkness link (or even a link to the number)? Even if they weren’t directly linked, what if they had (no pun intended) a lodger?
It’s worth remembering even if the Rubaiyat found is the one that matches the TS slip (I’m not particularly against the idea, but I’ve never felt that was conclusive), there’s nothing to say any writing in it is SM’s (e.g. if it was an ID exchange, then it could belong to the other party). In that case the phone numbers could be unrelated – instead sort of pointing to a mutually known third-party (e.g. Pruzinski).
Nick, your theory seems more than a trifle convoluted, and I don’t really accept the Masonic “link” out of hand. At the moment the idea seems quite tenuous. Perhaps if you flesh it out more I will eventually see the light. Also, I have no clue what scamming “hospitality” would even involve with the Freemasons.
It could honestly be in fact since so little is known, that it could be the other way around and were trying to scam “him”. If you check.out public knowledge of their “private” little world, you won’t find very much other than several notable conspiracies. The William Morgan affair, the recent P2 conspiracy and Jack (hmm
m) the Ripper. Not stuff I would personally want in my portfolio. The first being very actual and tangible, the second I am not so sure about, and the third clearly questionable.
I think if there were clearer ties to Masonry you would have heard more about them at the outset. No what SM was was far *more* mysterious than Masonry could ever hope to be, in my opinion.
From FamilySearch (thank you Angela!)
https://www.familysearch.org/photos/artifacts/156019578?
Funeral Notice:
KEANE.—Requiem Mass for the repose of the soul of the late
Mr. Gerald Thomas Keane will be celebrated at St. Ambrose’s
Church, Sydney Road, Brunswick, tomorrow, at 7:30 a.m. The
Funeral will leave the church after prayers at 3:15 p.m., for
the Fawkner Cemetery.
Obituary (repeated portions omitted):
Keane.—On April 3 (result of accident), at St Vincent’s
Hospital, Gerald Thomas, beloved husband of Freda, loving
father of Leo, John (deceased) and Gwen (Mrs. Dickinson),
and loved brother of Julie (Camperdown)
…
beloved father of Leo, and father-in-law of Rene, fond pa
pa of John.
…
father-in-law of Bill, fond pa pa of Julie and Patricia.
Requiscat in pace.
From:
The Age (Melbourne, Aus newspaper)
Mon, Apr 4, 1960
Page# 14
It is very unlikely that Gerald Keane was a Mason – there is no Masonic obituary for him and a requiem mass was held (cf John Sanders’ comments).
Re Em’s post on Gerald Keane’s caretaker position at the Mechanic’s Institute in Camperdown – I wonder if Gerald was caught in the cross fire of diaspora politics (Irish independence) and the Australian conscription debates of 1915-16 – Archbishop Mannix was opposed to conscription as was a large part of the Irish Catholic community:
https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/wars-and-missions/ww1/politics/conscription#:~:text=On%2028%20October%201916%2C%20Australians,49%25%20were%20in%20favour
Interestingly, the Camperdown Herald was run by Leslie Scott’s father (if you haven’t seen it, check out Poppins great moving image find of Leslie (comment from February 10, 2023 at 8:22 pm) swatting one of Australia’s ubiquitous flies at a Moonee Ponds soldiers parade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKybqbrKKU8
PS Nick and JS – many of the 1930s/40s “Summer suit” with white tie images on Pintrest are contemporaneous. I’d say that the ball is still in play…
Poppins could also be correct re the tie being linked to ice hockey – the Victorian Glacarium teams often wore white in competitions – possibly also in after events? This is most likely where Jack Keane played ice hockey as it was close to his Lanes Motors workplace: https://icelegendsaustralia.com/glaciariums.html
If that was fake Mason John Keane’s tie, then he must have got mum to put his name on it for him prior to his recruitment into the army or later airforce.
Broken hill did have a few baccarat schools aswell. Might the two be connected?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18295425
I would like to punt that Charlie was a sometime Mason. I have made a few enquiries to Freemasons Victoria with no reply. I contacted a very nice gentleman from another state who had previously made a comment here on Ciphermysteries, said he would do what he could and that everything moves very slowly!
From my recent phone call to Freemasons’ Victoria it seems that the library and museum have been mothballed – they have neither a historian nor a librarian. There is a small space somewhere with historic items and records (unsure if this is the previous, pre Covid, location in South Yarra). There is also a microfiche with member names but the person I spoke to doesn’t know how far back this goes and how complete it is. Derek Abbott said that he had made enquiries with no record found for Charlie but advised me to do an independent check.
I’d like to look through the minutes book for Euclid Lodge which formerly met at the Prahran Masonic Centre – or find someone with Masonic links who would be able and willing to do this.
I actually think that the Rubyiat indentations are an aide memoire for a Masonic text or charge. I just don’t think a poet would write in a mnemonic style….
HWGRTHPP
PPPP
HWGRTPP
AFOCITM
I really think it’s a seven too, “7. Keane” on the tie.
Jo, here’s three family notices and funeral notice for Gerald Keane, h’mm, it says
he died from an accident. p.14, The Age April 4 1960
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19600404&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
John Sanders. He certainly had a mother, that’s for sure. But what color was the thread? Embroidered monogram on the tie. (red monogram?) This is important here. There were threads in the trunk. (red) Otherwise the threads could be important. And a clue. Something like a symbol.
Why he had a screwdriver in his trunk is clear. A knife would be very noticeable. The screwdriver is perfect and a silent and fast weapon.
John Sanders.
Threads in the trunk of a dead man on the beach. The thread can be a symbol. And this as a symbol for orientation and solving complex and tangled situations or some problems. (which is our case of the man on the beach).
And or. A symbol of an unhappy marriage. (that would point to Jestyn. There she had an affair with a lover. He brought her to a different state. But then he didn’t want her anymore. So Jestyn was angry.
“JO” means YES.
“JES” means = “YES”.
“JE” Means = is.
(JESYN means = He is a son).
Further substitutions. The words JESTYN. Right to left = NYTSEJ.
= NYT SEJ = NIT SNA. (The name contains the word NYT, in English it means = thread. The word SNA means = knows.)
The name Jestyn can therefore be read as = JES NIT. (English = Yes thread).
And that Jesica knew Jewish encryption shows you on that paper, from Rubijat. Where is it written that she was 27 years old when she wrote it? Jesica was born in 1921 + 27 = 1948.
According to what else is written there, the corpse was 55 years old. Or 51 years.
That she knew the Jewish substitution. Jestyn also shows the piece of paper from Rubyjat. In the middle is the sign of the letter = X. Over that sign is written the sign of the letter = V.
I.e . X = 6.
I.e . V = 6.
Jewish Substitution. U,V,X,W have the value of number 6.
The letter X can also be taken as a male and female symbol. Combining these two symbols creates the Jewish star.
The union of man and woman. = child. (that means someone prepared JO for milk.) Who was it? Was he the one she gave Rubyjat to? ). Was the corpse the juice in love? Or was it the combination of JO and the corpse? Only JO knew that. Wasn’t Jestyn happy in the crotch? There are of course many unknowns. And so we have to continue working on the case.
For pupils. thread symbol. ( a thread in a suitcase luggage ) Ovid’s Metamorphoses.
An unhappy marriage. Theseus promised Ariadne marriage. And everything was different. Red thread. suitcase.
The body was found on December 1.
Character on paper in the middle. (V) + (X) = 12 month = December.
You turn the sign (V) and you have the number 1.
1/12/1948.
V=6. X = 6.
Poppins: if you care to go back aways, I mentioned Gerald Kean’s accidental death briefly. Go back further, there’s more detail ie, an industrial accident at Caulfield as I recall. I thought it strange in that he was over seventy and still labouring perhaps.
I thought the ‘T Keane’ was supposed to be a dry cleaning marking system – marking the shirt to return to the owner. It is likely in the 1940s these were owned by migrants to Australia. Perhaps the T and the K indicate someone for whom those letters were pictures to copy.
My bet would be on someone Chinese writing those characters.
Thanks Sanders, have been looking for your post in all the different categories, haven’t found it yet, so I must have read it and then it dissolved in my brain before I became fascinated with Gerald Keane …. now I’m fascinated with him, so will keep looking, good on ya. A quick look in Prov Vic says inquest held on 17 May 1960, industrial accident. Poor soul. Sad when you think about how many people from that delightful family photo met untimely ends, or departed this earth way before their time. Never met them, but hey, I just adore them all.
Gerald Keane seems like a quite likeable good hearted chap, in to the arts – went on a tour with the Russian Ballet which is impressable -and loved to sing. Industrial accident at such an age. What was his main profession though Anyone know what happened?
Sanders, found the posts, most excellent find, good on ya …. but ya got yourself in a bit of a tangle in the two posts I found – one has Russell Richard dying in an industrial accident at 71 and the other post has Gerald as Russell’s father …. must have had a Homer Simpson “doah” moment after you pressed send, hey, it happens. But yes, what the heck was he doing in an industrial accident at 71. Was it Fitzroy or Caulfield, you’ve mentioned both. Was it in the newspapers;, you’d reckon it’d have to be; haven’t found any yet. Cheers
Nick: “alas there was no black shirt in the suitcase…”
It’s true that long white ties are most commonly worn with black shirts. There were, however, always men who wore them with other coloured shirts. Including, in some cases, pastel or white shirts. (Have to say that the white on white look has never appealed to me, but to each their own.)
Another possibility: a white tie may have been part of a uniform identifying staff at a business such as hotel or restaurant – even, perhaps, a nit-keeper at an illegal gaming house?
For a prominent example of white tie as fashion accessory, see the main pic in the link below. The Duke of Windsor was around 10 years older than C. Webb, so I would think it was taken some time around the late 1950s? (While the Duke was apparently active in masonic circles, that clearly wasn’t the context of this pic.)
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a29322538/prince-charles-duke-of-windsor-edward-viii-relationship-the-crown-true-story/
Poppins: I’ve been getting them mixed up from day one and I’m still doing it, so thanks for picking it up, no one else did. As to where I found it, almost certainly a newspaper and Caulfield the accident site..I was just going through Jack Keane’s papers which seem to come and go in bits and pieces and, a couple of things I thought worth a mention. One being that before joining the army he was a truck driver (I think), second being that at age 23 plus when he started pilot training at Point Cook, he must have been much older than most in his classmates. I noted also that Jack Keane died during night bomber training of 29th November 1943 in Loughmore Ireland; that would probsbly make it 30th in Adelaide; five years to the day before Somerton Man. PS any idea what ever became of Gerald’s brother Bill ie., William Thomas @ William Peter, never been mentioned from memory.
@ Poppins – Gerald’s death sounds tragic, a collapsed firewall! I’m wondering if this was theatre related? Perhaps he remained active in amateur theatre? The records at the PROV are open access if Sheil Street, North Melbourne is in your ‘hood…
The Webb family home in Yarraville, where they lived when Charlie was born is also still around – 113 Simpson Street, a small wooden house.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?keywords=gerald%20keane&iud=true
Poppins: my mind wandering again sorry. Of course Gerald’s older brother William Thomas bn. 1893 was the bloke got booked for driving an unregistered hot rod in 1925 with a licence that had expired in 1623 [sic] according to the papers. He is reported in Wikitree as having deceased circa. 1947 at age 53.
….wrong again younger brother. While we’re still on the Keane’s anyone check out sister ‘Julia’ Kathleen; she may have died young as only her maiden name comes up on Geni.
….here we go again. Julia Kathleen Keane bn. 1897 died 1972. Seems she was never married and therefore probably had no involvement in the DNA matching.
@PB: Why are we waiting? Because Police Farces are:
1) Thorough
2) Slow
3) Underfunded
(All three of those might be inter-twined).
In particular with #1, it’s more important for them to be as certain they can that they are right than it is to get things done quickly. I wouldn’t read too much into “that means they [dis]agree it’s Webb” (although I’ll admit although I’m coming around I’m still in the not-100% convinced camp).
I’m also not sure they leverage DNA from crowd-sourcing (i.e. ancestry or whatever – I suspect there’s chain-of-evidence type issues with the reliability of the sample (so they could use it, but they’d be cautious making conclusions from it)) – so they have to go out and get DNA from possible relatives (and I can’t remember reading anything that suggests they have – that’s not to say they haven’t, but….). I would have thought there’s a few of them knocking on the door offering DNA but not sure….
Jo, I’ll try and get there at some point, to PROV, as long as you don’t have to book, if you can just wander in, I should be able to do that. Can’t find the inquest reported in The Age or the tragedy occurring. Perhaps it’s in the Herald Sun not on Trove, might check out library microfilms for it first.
Milongal, you’re a smart lad, read the update …
@ Poppins – you do have to order the records – you simply create an online account and request the files, you then have a window of time in which to go in and look at them.
poppins, Jo, & other such folks:
You people are absolute rock stars: visiting all these places, sifting through the physical records that haven’t yet been digitized for the rest of us, and most of all, sharing what you’ve found. Speaking as one whose closest connection with this case in terms of locality is being able to day-trip to a couple of the spots (long since decommissioned and still quite vacant) where Jack Keane did his flight training with the RCAF, we “sleuths” on the other side of the world (and everywhere else) owe a great deal to your efforts and generosity. Thank you!
I see that CFS Debert is now a museum, and one without much online presence… being so inspired by your work, perhaps I’ll get in contact with them sometime and see if I can’t find anything else pertaining to everyone’s favorite aeronaut. There could very well be no trace left of him there, but one never knows!
Now that we’re really just standing by for things to happen with SM forensics that are known to take time and are therefore beyond our control; In the meantime why don’t we conduct virtual on-line day trips to places where the Somerton man legend was born. In order to let our far flung non contributors get a piece of the action and also a feeling for the inner workings of each city back in the day. Note that Jamie S’ rock stars Poppins and Jo have given us a sneak preview of suburban Melbourne from the roaring twenties through to the wartime whoring forties. So we can try to emulate their fine input with the likes of the other state capitals that surely have their own Somerton Man stories waiting to be told. Eg., jestyn’s Sydney, Prosper’s Adelaide, Lockyer’s Perth, Major ‘Jestyn’ Mould’s Brisbane and perhaps others like Pruszinski’s Broken bloody Hill, Alf Boxall’s Darwin and Abel Tasman’s Hobart. We could make like we’re an historical version of Lonely Planet guide; Thus leaving Bozo Bowes, Flash Gordon Cramer and Dodo Derek Abbott to fight over the Somerton Man @ Charlie Webb spoils, or what’s left of them….guess we could fit NP’s white tie man Hector St Clair in to cover Auckland at a pinch.
@ JS – now you’re talking! I’ll work on 1a Mackay Street Prahran tomorrow! I also thought that your Jack Keane five year anniversary observation was very insightful!
Sanders, you’re an absolute riot 🙂
JS,
Hopefully those forensics will show up, though I would encourage those tasked with it to take their time. Accuracy first and foremost.
That said it really does look like Carl had a thuggish family (if he is in fact the Somerton Man), perhaps the Millicents should take a good look into their activities. Receivers, liars, gamblers, pickpocket entourage probably. Maybe he knew his time was up with them so he left a little code explaining their dubious activities, which he was probably above and beyond. This is stuff *you* guys have come up with, if you are thinking about pointing fingers. If you want to change that narrative, you better change it while you still can. It reflects *poorly* on a lot of folks, way out of SM’s likely areas of interest or activities.
@ Peter Davidson
You were asking some time ago on another thread about Lesmah Mary Rich Blashki, who married Joe Gavey’s grandson, John Ivor Gavey, a prominent Freemason, ex Lodge of Euclid in Prahran. She was a primary school teacher and also a member of the Blashki family, who made all of the Freemasons regalia: https://www.blashki.com.au/manufacturer-and-supplier-of-ceremonial-regalia/
I’ve never been able to establish if Charlie was a member of the Freemasons but other members of the Webb family were involved with the Prahran Freemasons (eg Norman’s wife). Ruby Webb’s daughter Brenda was adopted by Ernest Parry, an ex Lodge Master, when Ruby died.
I think, Matt, above, is dramatising stuff a little…I don’t think the family killed Charlie!
Does any one have a theory on the glass dish and only one eating utensil, a spoon? That and the lighter which he didn’t use for his cigarettes? My only solution is drug related. Also reading the police report he had sand in his hair and on the front part of his shoes. To me that seems he died laying down on the sand and was propped up while being robbed?
What is the thing with Freemasons and 82.5 as a magic number? Trove shows Freemason ‘no prize’ competitions where this was the answer. I know their knighting sword blade is 82.5 in length and they have a thing about 12.15 and the angle of clock hands being 82.5 degrees. It’s a bit weird.
The Plymouth Brethren which moved to Australia is being discussed today about how their corruption invaded the PPE scandal.
Is Carl’s code some freemason secret? Is there an 82.5 hidden in it?
They say the height of the Anzac Perth Bell Tower is 82.5 metres. True?
True enough Brother MD…to be precise 180.446194 cubits, significance of which in ancient lodge figurative terms be known only to Plod, GP Spoiled Motherhood of Euclid @michellemoney.bletherscot
@JS,
That’s those long short Aussie cubits. When the Egyptians built the pyramids they used short long cubits. Apparently the distance from the middle finger of the pharoah to his forearm. He was obviously a tall guy for that time though I guess some on CM think the aliens or Carl built the pyramids – so the length from the alien forearm to the tip of the long pointy finger of the alien leader.
Perhaps they should have measured Carl’s forearm. Carl ‘Cubit’ Webb. Remember Carl did have those strange big hands…They say that distance is 25% of your height so quite accurate for Cubit Webb at 5′ 11″.
…I always thought it was Somerton man what had the huge hands, well that’s what Paul Lawson told Stuart in ’78 but, not backed by those who SM on the slab. Seems the three pics we’ve seen perporting to be Carl don’t support the theory either…Speaking of your Egyptians, not the ancients responsible for the pyramid measured in “short long cubits”, the latter day mob, hope they open the border gate at Rafah soon.
I have been searching for C.J. Webbs as I wondered whether Carl had adopted another person’s name e.g. Clive James.
This is the interesting bit – looking at the image:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UtLLmDOyD1vhyFfOJ05OTOtOpKfU5MeA/view?usp=sharing
from:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37950041?searchTerm=%22c.j.%20webb%22
It seems C.J. Webb has the number WX12725.
But if you search NAA
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ListingReports/ItemsListing.aspx
What are the chances that the guy left of C.J. Webb in the newspaper is Goodchild?
Either the NAA or newspaper records are all screwed up or this is a miraculous coincidence.
P.S. I am not saying the other body is Carl I am saying he may be C.J.
The NAA Links never work (I think it’s deliberate but not sure why)….
Searching WX12725 brought up 2 Webb records (for Charles John from WA) – is that what the NAA search link was meant to be?
@Julian,
It was the coincidence the person to his left (in the newspaper) happened to have the surname of the person found when I searched with NAA.
Also that CJ Webb (?baker?) could be the other Webb from Adelaide who died in 1948. But January not November 1948?
The mortuary service called Carl ‘Jerry’ I believe. I don’t know whether they thought he was of German ancestry or it was just a made-up name as Jerry Keane from the tie label perhaps which ties him to John/Jack or even Gerald (Jerry) Keane.
David Morgan: I have suggested previously that the Jerry title likely came about as a Tom & Jerry comic take off from the so called ‘Tom’ Keane tie which was the only name authorities had to connect with their unknown man in the mortuary but thought not to be identity by them.
David & Julian,
Really hard to twigg to what you’se blokes are on about with Charles John Webb bn. 1920. His WW2 record shows that he was a POW in Germany from 1941until recovered at cessation of hostilities in May 1945, so how does that connect with Carl Webb ex Bribey St Sth. Yarra. Of course it doesn’t, however there always seems to be a coincidence or two attached to the Somerton Man perpetual motion case and your not so well spotted C. J. Webb from bum fuck (Wagan) W.A. be no exception. Believe it or not I was all over Wagan a while back in connection with Amazon Pat’s Dorothy/Jean ‘what’s your fancy’ for no gain…with one notable exception, her familial links to the mysterious Dr. John Barkly Bennett of Wagan circa 1950/52..Interested?