Contract bridge was a fashionable game in the 1930s and 1940s; columns presenting bridge news and puzzles were popular recent additions to newspapers. What was appealing was that bridge problems had a human, social side that, say, chess problems lacked.
Bridge columnists ran puzzle competitions for readers not only to solve, but to compete against each other. These puzzles ranged from moderate to utterly fiendish, making use of crazy-sounding techniques like “suicide squeezes” and “triple coups” (I never once saw a single coup, never mind a triple one).
It is in this febrile atmosphere of competing Master Solvers and bridge columns that we find a series of mentions of (very probably) Carl Webb.
1937
We can see Carl Webb – without much doubt, I think – writing into Norman McCance’s bridge column on 24 April 1937 (and 17 April 1937, 10 April 1937, and 03 April 1937):
He also submitted a solution into a different bridge column in The Age on 24 April 1937: and indeed, by the time the results to the thirteenth bridge problem of that year came round (10 July 1937), he had sent in correct answers to a very respectable five of them.
1946
After a gap of nine years, we again see “C. Webb” submitting bridge puzzle solutions to Norman McCance’s bridge column in The Age.
He starts to submit correct answers at the start of a North (of the Yarra) vs South (of the Yarra) for the South team. His name appears three times, on 28 Mar 1946, 04 Apr 1946, and 11 Apr 1946, before disappearing again.
There are no more mentions of Webb in the bridge columns. 🙁
But then again…
So, for a long time I thought that was the end of the story. But today, I took a second look at all of Norman McCance’s bridge columns up until the end of 1948, just in case there was a Webb mention there that Trove’s OCR had mangled very slightly.
As it turned out, there wasn’t: but looked at in context, the fact that the three Webb mentions in 1946 were right at the start of a North-South competition struck me as quite interesting. Might Webb have previously been submitting entries under a pen-name?
There were certainly a few pen-names, such as “Euclid” and “Dummy”, most of which I was able to eliminate. But one particular pen-name jumped out – “Interested” of South Yarra. This person was one of the five winners (out of 169 entrants) of the competition that had only just finished: they then immediately disappeared, just as C. Webb appeared.
What I found intriguing was that, at the end of that competition, Norman McCance mentioned that “Interested” hadn’t included an address when submitting their puzzle solutions. Which does sound like a Somerton Man kind of thing.
So, perhaps Carl Webb was “Interested” of South Yarra? It’s not a bad hypothesis.
I’d also add that there’s no mention in McCance’s column (which often mentioned Victoria Bridge Union events) of Webb in any pair or team there. So it seems likely to me that he was more of a bridge puzzle solver than an active bridge player.
One last thing: considering the good bridge ‘strokes’ / validation Webb must have been getting from solving McCance’s conundrums, I don’t honestly believe he was anywhere near Melbourne after 11 March 1946.
Nick – Norman McCance’s bridge problem columns moved across publications from the Argus and Age in the 1930s to the Herald in the 1940s.
McCance was a freelance journalist with interests in nature, the arts and children’s writing. He was also a pheasant breeder! He began his career as a wrestling commentator in the 1920s.
Can we link McCance to Charlie before 1937? His Avonsleigh home was near Monbulk, where Charlie went camping in 1933…
Some links for McCance:
https://sidharta.com/title/From_Wireless_to_Wallabies:_a_life_of_Norman_McCance
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1804533
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword.phrase=Norman%20mccance&startPos=180
https://douglasstewart.com.au/product/wrestling-scenes-in-the-ring-what-the-microphone-tells/
Charlie was the informant for his mother’s death at the Keane’s home in Brunswick in November 1946 so was in Melbourne at that time. I think her death notice is the last mention.
NP: guess it doesn’t faze you in the least that your 1937 on-line contract bridge cardsharp C. Webb (Springvale) was more likely to be someone other than Carl Webb @ Charles who from memory wss then living with his parents at Brunswick (Moonee Ponds). As for similar newspaper entries in ’46 with no locality, apart from ‘south’, in essence they could indicate Bromby St. South Yarra where our man was known to be living, or anywhere else in the country for that matter and to identify with scores of C. Webbs in Melbourne alone. What such sideshow misadventures has to do with the Tamam Shud case might give cause for a full reappraisal of our earlier honest initiatives. Carl Webb the man seems to be rapidly losing ground as a viable candidate with originator Derrick Abbott after his initial enthusiasm and even the clowning pretenders Peter Bowes and Gordon Cramer have gone cold on their earlier penchant for plagiarising Cipher Mysteries leads and are now chasing their tales as before. I don’t need to remind about your falling for Bruce Bennett’s D’Arcy hoax hand with it’s ensuing month long search for Dorothy D’Arcy which I joined with gusto. In a way this new thread brings to mind not only that fiasco, but also the scene from the 70s ‘The Odd Couple’ sitcom where the fuss budget Felix Unger takes down Oscar Madison with his unforgettable lines “When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me”…here endeth the rant!
….tales (tails) of course having a deliberate dual meaning
This is fabulously interesting Nick … h’mm, he certainly could be that “interested” competitor!
Hey, is there any chance the code in the Rubaiyat has anything to do with solving a difficult bridge puzzle? If the sentences all start with W, as David Morgan wonderfully suggested, from the Swinburne writing style, might they be representing West?
I’ve seen a few competition prizes of two, five cigarettes, etc, in the paper too, for winning at cards, maybe this could explain the cigarettes he had in the wrong packet. Random thoughts of someone who doesn’t know how to play bridge and probably never will, alas and woe.
John Sanders, they were still in Springvale till a few weeks before Mr Webb passed away in 1939, so Carl’s address was probably Springvale till early 1939, in my humble opinion only of course.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201305795?searchTerm=bakery%20leaving%20Mr%20R%20Webb
There seem to be two Carl Webbs. The dark and brooding poetry-loving introvert contract bridge player who goes to bed at 7pm and the young blond extrovert, who likes practical jokes, plays football and picks up young girls in his roadster.
Carl Webb was on the Dandenong electoral roll at the family’s Springfield Road address up until 1937, which is where all the “electrical fitter” stuff came from.
Poppins: alas, the infamous indentations on the page don’t resemble bridge notes at all. 🙁
Poppins: can’t fault with the bakery hand over to Mr. Patterson artical posting of which is getting to be a little repetitive and says nothing about where the Webbs were living in ’39. When old Richard died on 2nd April, it was reported him having lived at Moonee Ponds which accords with Brunswick (district) as is recorded on his funeral details. As an aside you may be interested to know that not long after the takeover, Mr. Patterson sold the business to Jim Rankin who still listed it as Webb’s Bakery or The Bakery from memory. Pays to keep in touch I’m sure you’ll agree Poops!
@ Poppins – I think the indentations could relate to trying to remember a Freemason’s song or charge, there are some examples here:
https://www.lodgedevotion.net/devotion-newsletter-content/masonic-music-related-articles/masonic-lodge-songs#h.fpbaharc6mmy
There are quite a few Melbourne lodges that are no longer around. We need someone with a knowledge of masonry to come up with some possibilities for the south east suburbs and Brunswick!
If this is true then we have definitely someone who wanted to be off the radar and it just consolidates in my mind that Carl Webb was on the run most likely from the mob and did not want to be found. I am under the suspicion that he was about to get his life together, contacted the closest To hIm- the Keanes – shaved his beard, was offered some clothings – hand me downs from the deceased son and went on a business enterprise in Adelaide….where supposedly the mob caught up with him….
Actually, in terms of the timeline as presented by Dorothy Jean Webb, which I summarised here – https://ciphermysteries.com/2022/10/12/somerton-man-the-webb-v-webb-divorce-files – the date that Carl Webb stopped submitting entries to McNance’s bridge column would seem to coincide with the date that he tried to commit suicide:
“In March 1946, [Carl Webb] – and I think there is no real doubt of this – tried to commit suicide by taking 40 phenobarbitol tablets. Once Dorothy had nursed him back to health, he then continued to verbally abuse her (etc) as before. (DWA. pp.5-6)”
Thanks Nick, so no need to pursue a bridge code possibility, goodo …. however I am now tempted to at least learn the rules of this game, just out of interest … maybe there’s a Bridge for Dummies book available 🙂
Jo, the Freemason lead sounds like a good one, there’s old books for sale online, I’ll have a look. The Malvern Mark Lodge 39 is mentioned in Mr R.A. Webb’s funeral notice.
JohnSanders, in ’39 I’d say they were living above the bakery. And it seems they moved into the daughter/son-in-law’s home in Moonee Ponds , then Mr Webb goes into Bethesda Private Hospital, so I think it was Carl doing the puzzles in Springvale.
However, I really don’t think he had anything to do with the baccarat, just my opinion at this point.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201305906?searchTerm=springvale%20Richard%20August%20Webb
P21 of Webb vs Webb states that an order for Dorothy’s maintenance was served on Charlie at the Red Point Tool Co in April 1947.
There are newspaper ads for the sale of furniture from Bromby Street in November 1946 – in the weeks either side of Eliza Webb’s death (she died in Brunswick at the Keane’s home and Charlie was the informant).
One thing I notice re Jo’s suggestion is that the last 2 lines have ‘M’ and ‘I’ that make it possible to create phrases with first person singular, while the top 2 lines begin with ‘W’ like a question (or alternatively a pledge beginning ‘We’).
In any event there seems to be a separation between the top lines and the bottom lines – so a change from third person to first person, or a 2 somewhat unrelated texts might be possible.
++++
We respect God over any brother and brethren departed
We the brethren in Melbourne pledge allegiance, never ever to part.
My Lodge includes all but outsiders, all inside appreciate quality craft,
I toast the master tonight & all masons & to God and brotherhood
NB: I’ve decided the weird shape of the ‘S’s in the last line are because they’re ampersands and because I can.
Jo: I surely can’t be the only person who wondered whether Charlie moved in with the Keanes in late 1946.
@ Nick – I think that’s very likely. We know that he’d lived with them previously, in 1940, at 226 Glenlyon Road, Brunswick. Dorothy left Bromby Street on 13 September 1946 (p17 divorce statement). I think it’s interesting that Dorothy didn’t provide a detailed address for the Keanes to her solicitor – almost as though she’s hoping there is no reply! Perhaps Charlie wasn’t the best lodger and the Keanes encouraged the move to Cottesloe!
Jo: as you know, we’re more than a little short of evidence supporting the ‘Cottesloe connection’. And… maybe the Keanes were pro-Carl / anti-Doff partisans?
Jo: substitute service is generally acceptable and complies in most jurisdictions where the intended nominee, whilst not actually present, is known at the address and, if the person accepting in there stead can satisfy that service documents will reach the person named therein.
Nick Pelling: In that you and Jo seem to have modified ongoing discussion vis a vis C. Webb, the McNance [sic] column contributor, could it be that the same name comes up in earlier or later than expected columns eg,, post 1947 Heaven forbid?
@ Nick – Gladys’s solicitor indicated “in hand” next to Charlie’s name when contacting her family re their share in her estate, which indicates that there was an address – where, who knows, but the subsequent newspaper ad does say Cottesloe, WA.
Re West Australian C Webb Trove finds most have a second initial – eg CH Webb the union official who seemed to be everywhere! I’ve only found one for C Webb with no middle initial – for an unclaimed parcel left at Manjimup Railway Station in October 1947! We need Pat on the case!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/257283985?searchTerm=C%20Webb
No, you are not the only one. It does seem to point to Carl moved in with the Keanes following a breakdown of sorts. From the Keanes onwards – there is Cottesloe….or the other way round
People have often theorised that the code was a poem but why would you write a poem in code? The two first letters are symbols a hashtag of sorts and the code seems to be initialisations to jog the memory , directions , train schedules, carplates, counted cards or puzzles from the newspaper.
The tendency to overcomplicate things is enticing but mostly it is just simple mundane stuff that turns out to be the truth
The truth about addiction and grief or trauma they go hand in hand. Many heroin addicts don’t take care of themselves , lose their teeth,…..may be Carl Webb did a Amy Winehouse and relapsed but one thing i know you don’t go for a shave,manicure, dress up to then go commit suicide- depression wont let you care for yourself that way.
Poppins: before I get ripped to shreds; Patterson sold ‘The Bakery’ to Robert John Suter in 1939 or early 1940, not Jim Rankin a former Webb employee. Bob Suter bn. 1884 of Spring Vale, likely stuck with his specialty Vienna loaves, birthday cakes and the like until he passed 14 May 1952, the business presumably being taken on by his his sons and/or three married daughters.
https://wfhs.org.au/downloader/download/24/Threads_96_Nov_2013.pdf
@ JS – there is a description of the Suter Bakery here.
Re Freemasons links:
I have seen an order of proceedings for an Installation Ceremony for the former Lodge of Euclid, which met at the Masonic Temple St Edmonds Road, Prahran. The lodge handed in its warrant fairly recently, I think 2021.
The installation ceremony was held on Thursday 5 July 1945.
The officers include:
Treasurer – Bro E Parry (who became Brenda Webb’s guardian) and
Inner Guard – Bro JI Gavey (Ruby Stella Webb’s brother)
I’m wondering if this could be a good place to look for Charlie? The Prahran temple is very close to the Red Point Tool Company’s former premises at St John’s Street, Prahran and also St Matthew’s church, where Charlie and Doff were married. There may be old minute books or member index cards, possibly old songs and charges…
Jo: the bridge puzzle solver “Euclid” was from Yarraville, which might possibly be connected here. 🙂
Where did Euclid live – was that the Hypotenuse on the Square or was that Mr Pythagoras?
I think there was a pub in London with that name. I don’t know whether it was on the Square.
I saw a strange argument in an Australian court case where they argued that Euclid and Einstein did not agree on the fact that a line was a curve.
“In mathematics, the term ‘curve’ is used to refer to the graphical representation of the solutions to a function or relation, where the values of the solutions can be represented as a continuous line or line segment, straight, curved or wiggly, in two or more dimensions.” Duggan – Sydney Uni.
Or could Carl have joined the Freemasons in WA – got the Rubyiat for Christmas/parting gift from the Keanes before he left …. speculation.
Milongal, are they fair dinkum lines from the Freemasons? Sounds pretty good to me.
Nick Pelling: The black backboard for Dud Aebi’s suitcase contents display photo bore a partly concealed, though readily identifiable large ‘A’ for Adelaide logo. Had it been in any way related to Freemasonry as Peter Bowes maintains, it would not have been subjected to the sacreligious act of being pieced by several pins in a manner reminiscent of Christ’s Crusifixion. Might we now bury this undoubtedly contrived FM disinformation campaign implanted by our resident Tbt interloper.
you might find Carl in the freemason prior to the suicide attempt. post suicide Carl Webb became a vagrant with no fixed abode. code might be train stops ie
TILT TRAIN MELBOURNE TO SYDNEY ADELAIDE THE GHAN ADELAIDE BRISBANE. The at the beginning of the last code is not an i but a marker of importance – i do it too when taking down notes.
The key to his missing years might be with the Keanes. Would be interesting to find out if any living relative have documentation is left in terms or letters or photos.
Re Cottesloe ….. is this another Somerton man coincidence, or a bit interesting?
February 1948: “Melb-Perth – Modern 2-bedroom Flat, HWS, refrigerator S Yarra, for House, Nedlands area, Win 8359”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206873842?searchTerm=win%208359
March 1948: “Exchange, Melbourne-Perth, mod 5-r Flat, S Yarra. House, Nedlands Cottesloe. Win 8359”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206877859?searchTerm=win%208359
Bro JI Gavey of Euclid Lodge (1945) could be either Ruby Gavey’s brother or her nephew. Her nephew, born in 1926, died in May last year – he would probably be the last person to know many of those associated with this mystery – Ruby, Roy and Brenda Webb, possibly Charlie and Dorothy, Joe Gavey – his grandfather, Harry Stokes “the Baccarat King” …
I don’t ‘maintain’ it John Sanders, I merely repeat what was told to me by Gerry Feltus. Once again we find you spreading misinformation …and all without any murmur of disapproval from the moderator.
Peterb: puting the blame on Gerry ain’t gonna take the heat off. We can go back and pull a few more histerical instances where you’ve spun the Det. Sgt. Leane Freemason ‘higher authority’ line for show, and without GF’s help. Best you think things over more carefully before you take piss out of the fraternal lodge order in future..if you have one has been!!!
@ Poppins- interesting!
…”A Malevolent Influence” your description of how the Freemasons will overide all other governing authorities for self survival, didn’t come from poor Gerry Feltus. He wouldn’t be so careless with his words and neither would anyone having regard for their own [deleted].
It’s a forum, Pete.
If it were as tightly locked down as your own site then nobody would read it.
Just as nobody reads yours.
a quick google search gives the result that it is the nephew https://www.mytributes.com.au/notice/death-notices/gavey-wbropgstdb-john-ivor/5930359/
@Poppins – nah, just made them up
Why thank you, Kara, and may I say I’m full of admiration for the revelations you have made that have helped this website achieve the lofty heights it currently enjoys. Indeed, your researching skills are only matched by the fellow who moderates this forum, perhaps you might inveigle him into spending more time on the Vm if only to thin the field of folks such as yourself.
thedud777max: looks like your Grand Poobah could find himself at odds with a certain fraternal order and could use some help over here if you’re game. Bring a few of your award winning humorless repetitive DOMEstic puns over to impress your ‘pet poodle’ fan base and keep rats from going back to the fast sinking Tbt flagship TSS Keane.
Poppins: wasn’t aware that Charles & Dorothy had owned their own pad..food for thought if your well spotted ad proved to be true; though probably the coincidence factor again.
John Sanders … with reference to your post commencing ‘ Peterb: puting the blame …’ I’m having some difficulty following your meaning here and would have thought that after posting what must amount to thousands of comments you might have at least learnt to communicate properly with your fellow English speakers, particularly those whom you have determined need a firm response to what you consider to have been an unwise comment.
Perhaps I’m the one at fault here as Cipher Mysteries appears to be your own personal domain and as such you have the unassailable right to post whatever you like, though at times there are instances where your language convolutions defy natural logic. Perhaps you could consider enrolling in one of the local English speaking schools, they can work wonders I’m told, particularly with the elderly.
Kara: “why are people so unkind”. Bowes’ penchant for use smoke & mirror facts is posited in the typical posh public school ‘learn-by-rote’ unimaginative style of a bygone era and an epitome of ‘The Nerd’. His past reliance on quoting from Feltus’ ‘The Unknown Man’ seems to have unravelled of late, to the extent that he’s now having to delete even more of his older fiction in order to regain what’s left of his assumed integrity.
OK, we need a Freemason!
According to the Mark Masters, the “Third Degree” of the Royal Arch “provides an opportunity for contemplation upon the closing hour of existence, however untimely this may be.”
Is the code a mnemonic for a “Third Degree” passage or exchange?
→Jo (5 Feb 9:41pm): ‘Gladys’s solicitor indicated “in hand” next to Charlie’s name when contacting her family re their share in her estate, which indicates that there was an address…’
While we’re not familiar with how the term ‘in hand’ was used in Australia 75 years ago, Collins dictionary (online) defines the term in the following way: ‘In British English: a. in possession. b. under control. c. receiving attention or being acted on. In American English: a. under control. b. in one’s possession. c. in the process of consideration or settlement.’
We thought that ‘in hand’ simply meant the probate attorney would follow legal procedure for dealing with an incommunicado heir. It sounds like the following was posted for this reason: (‘The Age’ Newspaper 22 Oct 1958: from a solicitor named H H Hoare) ‘CARL WEBB, formerly of Cottesloe, Western Australia, Electrician,.- Would he or anyone knowing of his whereabouts or death write to the undersigned, who has information of benefit to Carl Webb in connection with the estate of his sister, Gladys May Scott.’
As Carl Webb was not listed in Gladys May Scott’s death notice (The Argus Mon 4 Jul 1955 Page 12), one suspects an estrangement– at least between CW and Leslie William Scott, Gladys’ widower. In this case, CW’s Cottesloe residency might not be based on direct knowledge.
_______________
→ em (6 Feb 12:42 am): ‘But one thing i know you don’t go for a shave, manicure, dress up to then go commit suicide- depression wont let you care for yourself that way.’
If CW had a decided on suicide, but a last hope lay in a rekindled romantic interest with Jestyn– this might add up.
John Sanders, I can remember many years ago whilst employed as a bloodfloor labourer at Byron Bay, standing thigh deep in stinking offal and shoveling it into a high- pressure cooker when one of the local Koori hardnuts took minor offence at my polished antecedents, however we were quickly reconciled the next evening over a hollowed out pumpkin full of home made 80 proof hooch .. these wholesome memories enable me to view your half-arsed comments as the puerile utterings of the lesser educated. You see, Johnno, it’s no problem for me to descend to your level but it’s impossible for you to ascend to mine, ascetically speaking.
Jo, there’s a lot of Freemason books/magazines here, mostly from overseas though, the old ones, might be useful.
https://issuu.com/search?q=freemason+third+degree+royal+arch+contemplation
JohnSanders, was thinking maybe Carl was renting another place in early 1948 and wanted to exchange the rental with someone in Cottesloe, wonder if they could do that – but hey, yeah, probably another coincidence.
LeiffraNorden: your hypothesis of Somerton Man wanting to rekindle a romance between himself and Jessica Harkness, going back to her time as a trainee nurse has been raked over more than all other theories and so cannot be discounted out of hand . My biggest hurdle with the scenario is that a cove the likes of Carl Webb who’d knocked around some might be expected to have sufficient maturity and strength of character to gird up his manly loins and take it in his stride when such advances were not requited. As for the woman in question, Jess Thomson was no Jane Russell in the looks department, being very short, dumpy, with crook teeth and not so hot on sex appeal. I’m probably way off the mark in my views, after all beauty is only skin deep and love is where you find it, so the saying goes right?.
has anyone looked up the address in Cottesloe- could have been a hostel or something else?
It is unlikely Jestyn would have known Carl prior to his visit to Adelaide as pretty sure his dealings were with Prosper.
Perth surroundings was the last clue from Jo so anyone has access to the electoral register of the area?
Peter Bowes,
If you fancy that your people came of better stock than mine,
If you hint at higher breeding by a word or by a sign,
If your proud because of fortune, or the clever things you do—
Then I’ll play no second fiddle: I’m a prouder man than you!
If you think that your profession has the more gentility,
And that you are condescending to be seen along with me;
If you notice that I’m shabby, while your clothes be spuce and new—
Then you’ve only got to hint it: I’m a prouder man than you!
If you have a swell companion when you see me in the street,
And you think that I’m too common for your tony friend to meet,
So that I, though passing closely, fail to come within your view—
Then be blind to me forever, I’m a prouder man than you!
If your character be blameless, if your outward past be clean,
While ’tis known my antecedants are not what they should have been,
Do not risk contamination; save your name whate’er you do—
Birds o’ feather flock together: I’m a prouder man than you!
Keep your patronage for others! Gold and station cannot hide
Friendship that can laugh at fortune, friendship that can conquer pride!
Offer this as to an equal—let me see that you are true,
And my wall of pride is shattered: I’m not so proud as you!
Awesome poem and so very apt . As a wise man once studied – there are different types of intelligence. One can be book smart but not very good at making connections that is why team work is so very important.
em: Henry Lawson nights were a regular feature at Pakies club, his daugter Bertha being a big drawcard along with Mary Gilmore of No Foe Shall Gather Our Harvest fame, both of whom did recitations of Lawson’s best loved poems. Not sure whether ‘Prouder Man Than You’ was included but somehow doubt it in view of the high-toned upper class arty farty types what frequented the place in those days.
Scuse me, are we now assuming that the SM didn’t have anodontia? Because I can see incisors in Carl Webb’s mouth. Mr Mistry? Some clarification, please – ‘the cast was just generic’.
“There was a Door to which I found no Key:
There was a Veil past which I could not see”
Well, I have hit a wall!
The Freemasons of Victoria Library and Museum have not been open since the first Victorian Covid lockdown, in March 2020. There is no librarian or historian. There is a small space somewhere (possibly not the old library and museum?) with some old stuff in it… There is a microfiche detailing old member records but it is not available to the public and the person I spoke to doesn’t know how far back it goes… I was advised to email the Grand Master which I did do, some time ago, without reply; I have no doubt that he is a very busy man.
I also messaged Derek Abbott, receiving the following response:
“Hi Jo, Yes I did check with Freemasons and seems Charlie was not one but his dad was.
Worth you trying independently and doing it again in case anything was overlooked.”
I might try to contact an old member of the Lodge of Euclid…
@ LeifFraNorden – the issue with “in hand” and the newspaper advertisement is that the ad was placed three years (1958) after the probate documents had been lodged (1955), indicating that initial attempts to locate Charlie had, for obvious reasons, been unsuccessful…
Would the previous attempts also be documented in the probate?.. or would there be other ads possibly?
@ Em – there are no more details in the probate documents (digitised copy available to view via the PROV). I don’t know about other newspaper ads, the one mentioning Cottesloe was a chance find by a man named Lachlan Kelly, who posted to Derek Abbott’s Identifying the Somerton Man Facebook page. No one has found a Cottesloe address…
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/4ACD9DCF-F22D-11E9-AE98-13C9635230E5
Who is this criminal Charles Webb
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/AC8042A0-F8FA-11E9-AE98-3D9D045255F0
Dud: the Norm McCance column Colonel’s heroic bridge maneuvre apropos your in-house Tbt straw poll, might be for him to go for broke on a slam no trumps bid to gain max points..well almost. By my estimation that would convert to a ‘my fur coat’ response to all six stupid questions; whereas a steady pro poker player would prefer to keep his cards a little closer to his chest at this still uncertain stage of the game.
@ David Morgan – I checked that one out some time ago. The perpetrator was Charles Webb of Adderley Street, West Melbourne, a wharf worker, a few years younger than our Charles…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206363339?searchTerm=%22c%20webb%20%22%20unclaimed
wanted 1938 sedan. Was this our Carl?
WEBB—Malvern Lodge No 121 A F and A
Masons of Victoria Officers and Brethren
of the above Lodge and the Craft in General are
respectfully informed that the funeral of their
esteemed Brother RICHARD A WEBB will leave
the residence of his son-in-law Mr L W Scott
15 Coats street Moonee Ponds THIS DAY (Mon-
day) at 3 30 for the crematorium Fawkner
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12113898?searchTerm=bro%20webb%20masonic%20lodge#
Jo, thanks re criminal Webb. As a wharf worker he might have had a stencil kit to mark crates. Does the file give his date of birth? I wondered whether he had a war record and a photo of his face.
@ Em – the Cent 4496 number is for the pianist Charles Webb, he crops up a few times in Trove…
There are also a few commemorations for Malvern Mark lodge for RA Webb, I think this is a senior order, for people who’d been through various steps & degrees in the “Craft” – ie to become a mark mason.
I’d love to get some commentary from someone who knows about Masonry- I think there’s quite a bit of significance placed on death and acknowledgement of someone’s passing.
@ David Morgan
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206345161?searchTerm=Charles%20Webb%20Adderley%20street
This is Charles Webb of West Melbourne, aged 30 in 1943. There are other articles that can be found in Trove – eg he is involved in a truck accident at age 27. He was jailed for one year in 1946/7 for one year, for attempted rape. I think the only connection to Charlie and the Somerton Man case is his similar name.
@Jo
But is he another Charles Webb without a war record?
So, the lack of digital records is not proof they didn’t have war records?
@ David – the newspaper clip has Charles Webb as a wharf labourer in 1943, so there it’s unlikely that he has a war service file… I’d assume it would be an exempt occupation?
→Jo (5 Feb 9:41pm): ‘the issue with “in hand” and the newspaper advertisement is that the ad was placed three years (1958) after the probate documents had been lodged (1955), indicating that initial attempts to locate Charlie had, for obvious reasons, been unsuccessful…’
We may be wrong in assuming Australian probate law works like in the USA, though both are based on English common law. The 1958 legal notice explicitly mentions ‘information of benefit to Carl Webb in connection with the estate of his sister, Gladys May Scott’.
After Gladys died, Leslie as surviving spouse controlled their property but would not hold full rights until the probate case was completed. For example, he could live on in their house but not sell it. (Within the last month we had to sign a waiver in a probate case, so naturally our thoughts go in that direction.)
Alternately, Gladys could have left Carl a small amount of money, which the probate judge authorized the executor to disburse it. Because Leslie didn’t plan on dying, he could well have procrastinated any search for Carl for several years.
LFN: quite in accordance with normal legal process however, I’d be looking at it as an additional convenient legal manoeuvre for having Carl Webb declared legally dead and as such, to have his name deleted from any entitlement to monies, property, chattels or shared future benefits arrising from wills & probate orders involving other surviving family members.
Colonel chicken licker if the six questions I posed are stupid WTF is the purpose of your interest in this matter ?? Cos isn’t that what everyone is trying to figure out here or have I gone on the whiney old mens forum by mistake ???
In all your 946,000,271 posts you’re yet to post a single theory , hypothesis or original idea and throw rocks at anyone who does. Its not normal Colonel, you should know that. Also I find it a bit weird that you are obsessing about a post I made on a different forum and went to all the trouble to write that non sensible response. Lifeline is a free call Colonel.
Peace and love from the dude
@LeifFraNorden: Probate documents are usually public and can be requested (I think for free in most states) from the courts.
(I know in SA it’s as simple as emailing the courts with name and date of death – but not sure how it works elsewhere)
thedud: in that you didn’t name the “another furum” be rather telling don’t you think? I wonder could it be that both you and tomsbytwo.com are just about outa gas, or does It go right back to the onset of the problem and your own true feelings for Peter Bowes?
Helen Foxton: Pete. You seem to have nothing except advertising!
The Dude : Yeah. I agree Helen. Pete goes on like this all the time.
Pete (Bowes): I have a theory .. a thesis, an hypothosis, a proposition, a notion .. Spies to the right, and all else to the left. There we can talk.
Clowns to the left of me / Jokers to the right / Here I am
Stuck in the middle with John Sanders
Clive, Pete, dud & Jo blow
There you go, even pet poodles, clones, clowns, quislings and plain duds be made to feel welcome at Nick’s home so it’s no wonder we can’t stay away. As the saying goes: Be it ever so humble there’s no place like Dome’s.
Speaking of “true feelings” Colonel Im finding your obsession with your truly a little on the creepy side.
When did I make that post Colonel ? a while back I think and that with obsessing over my posts on “another forum” sometimes referred to as TBT should anyone find it remotely relevant.
It’s sad the way some people treat their heroes.
This is a question unrelated to bridge, but I saw here yonks ago that a date was mentioned when Jessie converted to Judaism. I can’t find it again so I’m hoping the poster is still here and could pass it on again as it gets back to the Sydney stuff. Thanks.
Dud: some other senile hag accused me of something similar, think she called it a name and I recall your boss having some cause to answer a stalking charge not so long ago. Best thing for a spruce goose to do if he can’t hack the pace would be to simply flock off.
This is interesting! A 1969 documentary made by Tristan Buesst’s son Nigel, about Squizzy Taylor, featuring an interview with Norman McCance and also Harry Stoke’s lawyer Eugene Gorman (I’ll contribute later on the 1935 Ballarat bank consipracy) … Norman McCance knew Squizzy as a bookmaker at the West Melbourne stadium… Did he know anyone else in Charlie’s circle?
Was Daniel Martin a book maker at some stage? I seem to recall a comment…
Is it just that Melbourne can be a small place in terms of who knows who!!
https://www.ozmovies.com.au/movie/galleries/photos/rise-and-fall-of-squizzy-taylor
Harry Stokes is also featured in Nigel Buesst’s 1969 documentary. Norman McCance came into the orbit of Squizzy Taylor et al when he was a wrestling commentator in the 1920s, with Taylor and Stokes running books on the wrestlers. There seems to be quite a bit of “six degrees of separation” going on here!! I’m also wondering if crime reporter Hugh Buggy (whose name crops up a lot) was related to Constable Buggy of the gaming squad!
It looks as though most of the film is available on You Tube – the intro is great! I don’t think Leo Keane could have topped it!
“Melbourne in the 1920s, a lusty, vulgar, carefree city, trying to forget the long drawn agony of the first world war. It was an age of rag time and flappers, pianolas, the new valve wireless, bobbed hair, rolled stockings, and wailing saxophones … keeping the pleasures of peace time in check was a dedicated army of wowsers … bathing on Sundays was forbidden and neck to knees the rule …
… while in the city new trams were replacing the old cable cars, in the back streets, a pint sized punk was establishing his reputation as king of the underworld. For over ten years he was a household name, regarded by the public as court jester but by those who really knew him as a flash little runt and sneak killer. He flitted about the hotel bars and race tracks dressed in style. Diamond rings glittered on his stubby fingers, he smoked expensive cigars, these were the fringe benefits of a career in crime …”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui7n-2m9MV0
What’s interesting is that in 1924 the pint sized punk’s address is given as 1a Mackay Street Prahran – Joe Gavey’s house.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1923157?searchTerm=1a%20Mackay%20Street%20Prahran
A great review of Nigel Buesst’s 1969 documentary film on Squizzy Taylor, featuring commentary from Norman McCance.
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1558425715/view?sectionId=nla.obj-1742423852&partId=nla.obj-1558629706#page/n3/mode/1up
The film cost $2000 to make. No one under the age of 30 had heard of Taylor, no one over the age of 30 would admit to knowing him… The sensibilities of different times!
More on this in the comments above. Promise I’ll give this one a break Nick!
Although Tristan Buesst was the sometime owner of Gowan Brae, 274 Domain Road, where Charlie and Dorothy lived at the time of their marriage, he probably didn’t have much to do with the place. He is associated with several other properties in the area, especially 216 Domain Road, South Yarra – which is opposite where Central Bureau operated during WWII at Cranleigh, 225 Domain Road.
https://www.ozatwar.com/locations/225domainrd.htm
216 Domain Road was a complex of three maisonettes built in 1936. Its where the Buessts lived when Nigel Buesst was born. The building was recently renovated and converted into a five bedroom home and is currently for sale – very expensive and quite stunning!
https://www.picturevictoria.vic.gov.au/site/stonnington/miscellaneous/12044.html
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11160460
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11068311?searchTerm=216%20domain%20road%20south%20yarra
Another Buesst property in the area:
https://daviddavis.com.au/call-to-protect-local-heritage-104-caroline-st-south-yarra-have-your-say/
Dear Nick
Please put in your bid for $23,000,000 and we’ll all come over and party!
https://m.realestate.com.au/property-house-vic-south+yarra-140749767
(It was three maisonettes in the 30s and 40s, but you get the idea of the homes and neighbourhood).
I do believe that it was stated in one of the trove article re Clara Gavey bonds woman activity that Joseph Gavey’s side hustle was buying real estate and refurbishing them. Also note that Clara Gavey acted as a bonds woman for many of the criminal types associated wit Joe Gavey
https://www.realestate.com.au/property/255-domain-rd-south-yarra-vic-3141
If 216 Domain Road doesn’t tempt anyone another property in the signals intelligence locale has just gone up for sale again- Poolman House, 255 Domain Road, opposite Airlie (Poolman House was used by the Red Cross during WWII).
https://www.realestate.com.au/property/255-domain-rd-south-yarra-vic-3141
(old listing info)
@ Em is on the ball – the Gaveys also seem to have been in the building and real estate game, probably far more profitable than any of their associates criminal side lines…
Poppins: as y’can see, nothing much doing here on February 5th at 6.44 am. Only thing I picked up on of any interest was Nick Pelling’s careless spelling of his main thread lead character Norman MCrance and, Jo’s insistance on following his lead with McCance ever since, to-day included….As for your interest in magazines eg., women’s periodicals; A little known long lost Melbourne social gossip magazine, Table Talk that ran for half a century to 1939 was one of my Trove favorites for news on Ballets Russes and scandals like Princess Margaret’s pet corgi Queenie getting bonked in the Windsor Castle sunken rose garden. Betcha get some ‘you beaut’ insider’s gen on our cast of Keane thousands on from it.
Poppins:
For example:
History of wireless telegraphy & Broadcasting in Australia/Topical biographies:
Mr. Charles Webb is a master of the art of bookbinding, and it is a small wonder that the members attend … Table Talk (Victoria Australia) (3032): p. 43…(archives).
Fair shake of the sauce bottle, as our ex MP once said, err, to the bemusement of all us Aussies…. Sanders, get on into the Taman Shud arena and deal with it, you know the date, lol, off ya go.
Poppins: yep, I know the date mate but, the time was thine not mine. Would you care to amend it or or are you content leave us guessing on how you came up with it and to what end.
Poppins – seems we can’t teach an old hound new tricks!
JS – it was a slander relating to dogs, female dogs.. Anyway, time to let it drop.
Jo: your own sexist take on things seems to have no justification. All we want to know is the the source of my derogatory slur, which if valid, will earn a sincere apologee. Should the alleged “slander” turn out to have been misdirected or is alternately baseless as I suspect, truth be known, then a retraction is not only appropriate but also essential. Simple as that, only then can we can “let it drop”..
Here it is John Sanders … now let’s all get out of this puzzle area and back to the task at hand, hey, we need to find some good stuff in those archives …
https://imgur.com/e36W5H8
Poppins & Jo….yes I do recall making that comment. It was as a rebuke for one directed against me on another site. I’ll concede that general apologies be in order however, you’ll both will need to concede also, that mine was neither slanderous nor sexist for all that…So it’s on with the Motley far as I’m concerned.
@ Jo,
Is there a way of watching the whole film The Rise And Fall Of Squizzy Taylor?
Thanks!
@ Pat
Here’s part I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui7n-2m9MV0
and part II: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yefkgnE8TOA of the Rise and Fall of Squizzy Taylor.
I thought it was fascinating that so many Somerton Man characters were there in the same film! There is:
– Nigel Buesst, the director, son of Major Tristan Buesst who was the some time owner of 274 Domain Road South Yarra, where Charlie and Doff lived at the time of their marriage;
– Squizzy Taylor who was an associate of Roy Webb’s father in law Joe Gavey – Taylor lived at the Gavey’s house in MacKay Street Prahran at the time his daughter was born in the 1920s;
– Norman McCance – who both knew Squizzy Taylor, from his days as a boxing commentator and who ran the bridge competitions that Carl entered whilst living in Springvale in the 1930s and then again in 1946 and
– Eugene Gorman who was the Gavey’s lawyer when they were caught up with baccarat king pin Henry Stoke’s botched Ballarat bank raid.
@Jo,
Thanks! Fascinating stuff, life is stranger than fiction!
I suppose the full film isn’t available?
I found it on this website but the links are broken.
https://www.ozmovies.com.au/movie/rise-and-fall-of-squizzy-taylor
@NP
I know for some reason you eliminated Euclid as not being Carl Webb the bridge player. Perhaps he popped up after 1948 playing bridge. But perhaps some names were inherited like tribute acts.
It was just the one description of Euclid as ‘had he played bridge’ fits my concept of Carl being the bedroom bridge “master solver” who never socialised so couldn’t play the game for real. It might explain why he might resort to anger when the master bridge solver meets up with the poor bridge player who can handle the stress of the moment with real money at stake.
In the 1990s (probably like yourself Nick) i was in a bedroom trying to develop things on a laptop. In my case at that time I was trying to develop a break-even analysis for gambling on horses as a Christmas hobby while staying with relatives. In 2023 I tried to use AI to repeat it with prisms.ai and got very close to a break-even solution when they shut down prisms. I was waiting for their GPT4 upgrade. I think they lost their funding. But I’m fairly certain a break-even solution is possible in an 8 horse race when no horse is an odds-on favorite. You don’t lose your money – but break-even means you have the winner but also all the losers. Financially you break even. I had a theory where you might actually gain 10+p each race – that was the ambition.
When Prof Abbott thought the code was names of horses again I thought of Carl trying to solve some other gambling problem trying to become a master solver.
In the one article about Euclid he said he could lose all the way until the last 2 rubbers and win. Perhaps with Dorothy his theory was being tested and he was a bad loser when they cheated.
I remember that Christmas with a relative we decided to test my theory to break even. I wrote out the precise bets like Jolly roger 20:1 bet £1.47 ‘to win’. So he went into the bookies with ‘my money’ and when he came out he said yes he had placed the bets (it was to be 4 bets each). But he came out with 4 betting slips for different amounts on different horses. I could have been Carl and got the kitchen knife. It was the reason I had stopped investigating it until 2023. But again I was cheated out of it – this time by the billionaire prisms.ai investors. ..get the kitchen knife…