From the time of writing “The Curse of the Voynich” to now, I’ve felt annoyed with myself for not being able to figure out precisely what is going on with the Voynichese “daiin daiin” pattern. Back in 2006, I wondered whether all the scribal variations of EVA ain in Herbal A might actually be somehow enciphering Arabic numerals. Sit back with a drink and I’ll tell you the story about how I got to that point…
My 2006 Voynich hajj
While preparing to write Curse, I went to New Haven on a Voynich research hajj. The Beinecke curators had been kind enough to allow me to spend a few days looking at every page in depth, though I must confess that I left the nine-rosette page until last because I was frankly terrified it would fall apart in my hands. The hunch I had that I should look at the marginalia with a black (UV) lamp had paid off, because it revealed the (faded away) Voynichese at the top of f17r.
So, after a couple of days of doing this, I had already gone through just about every folio: but I kept having a nagging feeling that there was so much of it to look at that I had missed something really big (and simple), hidden in plain sight. I therefore decided to pick a single early page and just stare at that for an hour, to try to ‘go deep and narrow’ (rather than wide and shallow).
I picked f38v (because the vellum was clean and the writing was clear), whose text looks like this (interrupted by a vertical plant stem):
After more than half an hour of staring from different sides and angles, what suddenly struck me was that a surprising number of the aiin-group words appeared to have had their terminating scribal loop added on as a second pass. If you extract out the aiin-family groups from this page, you get this:
In Curse, I subsequently speculated that the original form of these shapes might have looked like a more conventionally-written “aiiv”, but with a dot placed above (or possibly in-between) one of the three ‘peaks’ of the ‘m’-shape (i.e. if you read it as “am”); and that a second writing pass might have turned this dot into the starting point for a downward scribal loop (i.e. to conceal the location of the dot).
Of course, nobody then or now agreed/agrees with this speculation (which is OK). All the same, I know what I saw back then, and I have to say that the scans don’t properly capture what I saw. As always, be careful that a map isn’t the territory (not even for Borges), and a scan of an artifact isn’t the artifact.
EVA and aiin scribal loops
Even if you don’t agree with my 2006 speculation, from this page alone there would seem to be a wide range of scribal forms used when writing the terminating loop of the EVA “n”, ranging from really short to really quite long. Simply assuming that these ‘can only be’ scribal loops would therefore seem to be quite a foolish first step. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the EVA designers did.
I can see exactly why they did it (essentially, they were trying to design a transcription alphabet to enable a kind of interpretation-free scholarly discourse): but I think it would be wise to bear in mind that they might just have oversimplified things as far as daiin goes.
Glen Claston’s Voynich 101 transcription arguably went too far in the other direction, and was perhaps wrapped too tightly around the specific way (based on Leonell Strong’s reading) he parsed Voynichese, which I think was not a good choice for quite different reasons. But… it is what it is, as always. Caveat lector, for sure (and not just if you are Clarice Starling).
All the same, I personally can’t help but be suspicious of the argument that Lisa Fagin Davis tried to project onto the aiin groups, that their terminating loops are a scribal ‘tell’ universal across the pages of the Voynich Manuscript. For Currier B pages, this is perhaps true: but I don’t appear to see the same consistency in Herbal A pages. Sure, use EVA k and EVA t as palaeographic tells all you like: but please be careful trying to draw the same category of conclusion about scribal flourishes in Herbal A pages, you might just be throwing the cryptographic baby out with the palaeographic bathwater.
daiin-family repetitions
Lastly, there’s something acutely uncomfortable about some of the daiin-family repetitions. f38v has a fine example of this, in that it has five of them in a row. Here are the first four (with the stem in the middle):
…and here’s the next one along…
In fact, the next few words are all very daiin-heavy:
This is a big cluster of daiins, which I can’t help but wonder might be days in a date, such as “1440”. Though in the 15th century, I should add that it was also common to omit the initial “1” in dates, i.e. “440”.
Could it be that “daiin-daiin” as a pair might somehow encode a single Arabic numeral, i.e. even more verbosely than you might imagine? I don’t know, but I thought I’d raise this as a possibility.
As you probably know, daiin also appears three times in a row ( e.g. f89r2 ). In my opinion, this should be included in all considerations.
https://voynichese.com/#/f89r2/all:daiin/456
Nick,
This doesn’t even rate description as speculation but for what it’s worth…
The examples you show seem to have a great many corrections both fore and aft in that heavier ink. I mean both the ‘8’ shape and that you call ‘n’.
It was perfectly normal for scribes’ work to be overseen and corrected by another individual. I’ve noticed evidence for affect from two distinct fifteenth century ‘overseers’ – not counting marginalia or the dark-ink additions to the calendar – so here’s the thought. What if he ‘8’ and the ‘n’ relate to grammar.. cases.. that sort of thing.. and the overseer is checking that they are correct and clear?
Another very-likely-irrelevant note about mixed language/alphabet possibilities – I have seen scripts that contain both a two-point and a three- point letter.
Speaking of Hajj and pilgrimage and so forth. I never published the evidence and argument which led me to it, but I’m about… say 82% sure that the central ‘island’ in the Voynich map (what you call the Rosettes page) represents Arin, and not any of the medieval and increasingly notional ones, but the original before the great lake broke. Keeping it a bit cryptic because after all, this is Cipher mysteries. 🙂
Diane cryptic indeed. What is Arin? I would accept a medieval and notional one. haha. There are a couple of Arins on the world map.
On my own studies, I wrote a old school VMs participant and didn’t hear back regarding the id of the 500 thaler/ducat seller Carl Widemann and where he might have gotten it, if he was in fact the seller. I hope my friend is well. This concerns the same page, our freaky yet lovely rosettes. My idea might explain about the baths as well.
Matt – Arin was the equivalent of Greenwich.
From the 7th C Ad or more exactly after c. 9thC AD, the term becomes better known through Arabic charts and texts and we know its position soon became vague – hence notional rather than physical. Tracing through the pre-Islamic era is harder work but thanks to finds in India and in Ay-Khanum (Ai Khanoum) we now know a little more. In my opinion, as I’ve said, the foundation of the Voynich map is Hellenistic and eastern Greek, though there’s evidence for at leas two phases of updating and revision, both relatively late and the second of which brought major changes, loss of one ‘Rose’ of the original four, replacement of the original north roundel with what I’ve called the ‘itinerary’ roundel – that’s the one containing the token for Constantinople-Pera often mis-read as ‘a castle’. Fortunately the original ‘North roundel’ was preserved and is now used as the map’s north-west roundel. Details within that roundel were why I first had reason to connect the Voynich map with early cartes marine produced by the cartographers of Majorca and Genoa. It’s a pity that the Tucker pair made such a hash of it when trying take a single item that I’d cited in evidence and trying to reduce the map to nothing else than Abraham Cresques’ map (known as the Catalan Atlas).
It is a pity that while the original analytical study was largely ignored – nothing like it had been done before – people started attempting to take “the idea” and re-do it to better suit Wilfrid’s Eurocentric story. Cheshire might have been the first – the Tuckers fairly recent. I’d love to do a survey and ask each to share details of where/from whom they got “the idea”. I think it’s a pity; it would have been different if it had been a matter of an original study debated, refined, improved and so on, as normally happens. But as it is, the whole thing’s a mess now and a babble of competing voices, most of what’s produced being rather shallow. But to be serious about the manuscript, one has to like it, and I’m not sure that many people do. Still, there are so many thousands of manuscripts that it hardly matters in the longer term.
Where you see a curse, I see the Titanic.
I think with the statement where it is 5x daiin, that’s how it looks at first glance.
But on closer inspection it is “da3…da4…da2…da2”.
So there are 3 different “daiin”. But that doesn’t make it any better.
3x “daiin” in a row, here I see the iceberg.
So I let the grey cells work for a change, even if there is sand in the gears.
If I were to see the amount of “iiii” as a possible ending, then in the arrangement, xxtis, xxsis, xxris, xxvis would be possible. Thus each “i” would indicate the individual position in the conjugated and type of ending. In this way, words also take on a completely different meaning. If I now think of the ABC, the order is r,s,t,v. The “u” is dropped because there is no “uis”. Seen in this way, they would actually be numbers.
Interestingly, there are also symbols for that in ancient Latin.
With 3x in a row it becomes more difficult. The simplest explanation, he simply made a mistake in the dashes and didn’t correct it. So it would simply be 2 + 1 mistakes, which would be normal. Because 2x the same thing still happens quite often.
Everything is simple, isn’t it?
It was time long long ago I have tried to present my hypothesis about VMS… Now some things changed in my life and these changes raised new (for me, exactly:) proposition about VMS. I am not working now in informatique sphere, my new work is in sawmill… What may be common between sawmill and VMS ? I am often writing results of metering of wood planks on Excel sheet. The result is not full wide of plank, but only wooden part, without crust. In fact I have about 100 pretty random numbers in one sheet. Now I can say – my sheets are similar to Voynich manuscript pages, numbers repeating patterns are similar too. Two equal numbers in queue arises pretty often, three – rare, about one time in 3 sheets, four – very rare , about one time in 10 sheets.
Resume: as I know exists hypothesis of Robert S. Brumbough, in which VMS glyphs are numbers (in unknown calculation system). IMHO, this may be true…
He was ‘Din! Din! Din!
‘You limpin’ lump o’ brick-dust, Gunga Din!
Diane. Very interesting indeed. I have heard of the (I guess concept) though perhaps under another name. Any books you could recommend on the subject? Good find, and yes I had not thought about it.
Matt
Xplor: haha
Diane, is Arin the name you give to the reputed “Atlantis of the Sands”, Ubar? I can find no “Arin” looking on Google which matches your idea. It would be interesting if you have been, like me, unimpressed with the location of “Ubar”. It speaks of no “lofty pillars” in the few pictures I have seen that would merit such a famous mention.
I think the castle in the Rosettes, *might* be the city of Ani. I don’t know why it would have Ghibelline crenellations, though more likely to be Ani, world mapwise than Ubar. Honestly throwing it out there to see what the peanut gallery thinks.
Ubar was identified with a city quite late in literature. Most probably at a later time than the alleged date of composition of the VM.
Matt
It is usual to render ‘Arin’ as Ujjain in discussions of early Islamic cartography. Ujjain is in Madhya Pradesh. India.
If you’re really interested, Raymond P. Mercia, has written in various journals and in volumes of the History of Cartography, which is online.
One valuable essay by him is entitled ‘Meridians of reference in precopernican tables’, Vistas in Astronomy (journal), Volume 28, Part 1, 1985, Pages 23-27,
Have to admit it’s fairly out-of-the-way stuff.
Matt – to save you time.
This is a footnote from Mercia’s artlcle in HOC Vol.2 Bk1, p.175 n.6 It probably says all – and more – you’d like to know. 🙂
6. The prime meridian of Indian astronomy passed through Ujjain (longitude 75;46) in Madhya Pradesh. It came to be referred to as Arln in Arabic texts. The zij, or astronomical handbook, of al-KhwarazmI was based on this meridian, in line with its close dependence on the Brahmasphutasiddhanta; see Raymond P. Mercier, “Astronomical Tables in the Twelfth Century,” in Adelard of Bath: An English Scientist and Arabist of the Early Twelfth Century, ed. Charles Burnett (London: Warburg Institute, 1987), 87-118. On the demonstration that the Indian observations were actually referred to this meridian, see
Raymond P. Mercier, “The Meridians of Reference of Indian Astronomical Canons,” in History of Oriental Astronomy, Proceedings of an International Astronomical Union, Colloquium, no. 91, New Delhi, India, 13-16 November 1985, ed. G. Swarup, A. K. Bag, and K. S. Shukla (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1987), 97-107.
Daiin ask yourself why are words repeated in songs and speeches.
Stefano, there are some as (allegedly) HP Lovecraft who think it dates into antiquity perhaps mentioned in his “The Nameless City”.
Diane, thanks very much. I will seek them out. So perhaps Ubar(or whatever it’s name is) can be mine…or perhaps ours)? 🙂 Good Job everyone. Carry on.
Matt
H P Lovecraft! A previous contributor called Aga Tentakulus! Surely not the mighty Cthulhu.
“Ubar” is also known as “Iram”, “Irum”, “Irem”, “Erum”, or the “City of the Pillars”,
From Dan Clore’s A Necronomicon Glossary:
“In Lovecraft’s “History of the Necronomicon” we read: “Of his [Alhazred’s] madness many things are told. He claimed to have seen the fabulous Irem, or City or Pillars, and to have….”
Elsewhere in the fiction Irem is mentioned only in these brief allusions:
….and one terrible final scene shewed a primitive-looking man, perhaps a pioneer of ancient Irem, the City of Pillars, torn to pieces by members of the elder race. (“The Nameless City”)
Of the cult, he [Castro] said that he thought the centre lay amid the pathless deserts of Arabia, where Irem, the City of Pillars, dreams hidden and untouched. (“The Call of Cthulhu”)”
From lovecraft.fandom.com › wiki:
“Irem is inspired by and based on the real life legend of Iram, “the Atlantis of the Sands”. The Islamic holy book the Koran mentions Iram by name, a city of towers or “lofty buildings”. Its inhabitants were a people known as the Ad, and they were given over to evil, having turned away from holy teachings. A prophet named Hud was sent to try and turn the people back to goodness but he was ignored. As a result, Iram was drowned in a sandstorm that raged for seven nights and eight days. Iram vanished beneath the sands as though it had never existed.
As a result of the Orientalist fad, Iram was much better known as a folk tale at the time of Lovecraft’s career than it is in the twenty-first century, and it can be seen that Irem is not the only tale in the Mythos that has taken inspiration from it.
One possible real life location for Iram / Irem is Shisr in Oman, at a site that both amateur archaeologists and satellite imaging have discovered a lost city.”
Iram is also mentioned in the Arabian Nights, and funnily enough, for Somerton Man followers, the Rubaiyat – stanza V begins “Iram indeed is gone with all its Rose”.
Don’t tell me the VM is a version of the Necronomicon. Cacodaemoniacal indeed!
Steve, nice to see another Lovecraft diabolical, here. I sometimes hold back
and let someone else step in it, which I am thankful to you for doing so. Good
explanation except as far as I know, Ubar and Shishr are the same, but I am
not certain that either are lofty Irem, it should be noted. in my very humble opinion.
The heart of the matter is the Voynich’s “Rosette” pages, a foldout, numbered f85r and f86v, in Quire 14. Nine curious three dimensional elevated spheres with some sort of support system, the central one the most 3d which looks like some sort of giant polyp with an unclear support. (this is my best description, please inform if it can be improved) In my opinion it meets the criteria “lofty”.
Lovecraft’s “The Nameless City” takes place mostly underground, though it starts in some unknown place “remote in the deserts of Araby” and “it is told of in whispers around campfires and muttered about by grandams in the tents of sheiks, so that all the tribes shun it without wholly knowing why”.
Yes, the general idea first mentioned by Daniel Harms, and later discarded as hoax by him was it could be the Necronomicon. Just one of quite a few notions I personally have about it.
Actually “spore” is probably a better word for the giant central sphere.
Steve Hurwood,
Absolutely fascinating. I had no idea that Matt’s Ubar is sometimes identified with Shisr in Oman, now a UNESCO world heritage site.
A travel site reports finding no pillars but “shards from China, Rome and Egypt” suggest the site was being used, even if only as a stop on the caravan road to as late as the 9th-10thC AD, which is when we find Chinese trade ceramics in Cairo and Thai ceramics ito as far as Timbuku, though here is some debate over whether the latter were imported direct, or whether the easier course was taken and Thai craftsmen brought to work in Cairo.
A site in Oman is certainly not impossible – not for the early 15thc, but for whenever most of the matter now in our ms was first given its form. There’s also a couple of references to a script used there that was unknown elsewhere, and as I read it, there’s a reference to a not-far-distant site in the Persian Gulf embedded in folio 5v, and where remains of a Hellenistic structure have been found. So not impossible. But as I said – all things considered I’m 80%+ sure it meant for Arin, so if it turns out o be Shisr it’s Matt’s find.
Matt
I’m always stepping in it.
On the VM/ Necronomicon link Colin Wilson got there first.
Nick wrote back on 16 Jan 2008 (‘VOYNICH MANUSCRIPT IN EXISTING NOVELS…?’):
“Many people have also wondered about the relationship between H.P.Lovecraft’s Necronomicon and the Voynich Manuscript: Colin Wilson based a short story called “The Return of the Lloigor”* around this, and returned to the theme at the end of his novel “The Philosopher’s Stone”.”
*The story sounds more Machen than Lovecraft to me. See for example his ‘The Novel of the Black Seal’ in which a Professor Gregg believes that a hidden civilization exists in the wilds of Wales and travels there with terrible results. From the Prof’s last statement:
“But there is one incident I cannot pass over unnoticed. In the waste hollow of the night I awoke at the sound of those hissing syllables I knew so well; and on going to the wretched boy’s [Cradock] room, I found him convulsed and foaming at the mouth, struggling on the bed as if he strove to escape the grasp of writhing demons. I took him down to my room and lit the lamp, while he lay twisting on the floor, calling on the power within his flesh to leave him. I saw his body swell and become distended as a bladder, while the face blackened before my eyes; and then at the crisis I did what was necessary according to the directions on the Seal, and putting all scruple on one side, I became a man of science, observant of what was passing. Yet the sight I had to witness was horrible, almost beyond the power of human conception and the most fearful fantasy. Something pushed out from the body there on the floor, and stretched forth a slimy, wavering tentacle, across the room, grasped the bust upon the cupboard, and laid it down on my desk.”
On 11 Jun 2008 Pilchard wrote (‘DEE, LOVECRAFT, VOYNICH – AN ETERNAL TRIANGLE?’):
“The problem with Lovecraft fans is that they often enjoy emulating what their gloomy hero liked to do: mix fantasy with history until they both blur together into one great big glob of either historicised fiction or fictionalised history (whichever you prefer, it doesn’t matter much).” Ear! Ear! as Edward Kelley might have said.
in our moderator’s ‘REVIEW OF “THE PHILOSOPHER’S STONE”‘ of 23 Jun 2008 he wrote: “Including the Voynich Manuscript is a nice piece of intellectual decoupage on Wilson’s part…” It sounds to me, not having read it, and with my social anthropologist’s hat on, pace Levi-Strauss, more like a piece of pseudo-intellectual bricolage.
There does seem to be some confusion about the “Atlantis of the Sands”. The Wikipedia article states that it: “refers to a legendary lost city in the southern deserts of the Arabian Peninsula, thought to have been destroyed by a natural disaster or as a punishment by God. The search for it was popularised by the 1992 book Atlantis of the Sands – The Search for the Lost City of Ubar by Ranulph Fiennes. Apart from the English name, coined by T. E. Lawrence, the city is commonly also called Ubar, Wabar or Iram.”
But in this article, although the main emphasis is on Ubar, under the heading ‘The Real Location of Ubar and Iram’ it is stated:
“Today, archeologists seem to have collectively agreed that Wadi Rum in Jordan is the ancient home of the city of Iram. It is in southern Jordan, in the valley known as Wadi Rum.”
https://nabataea.net/explore/travel_and_trade/shisr-in-south-arabia/
Nick
You haven’t declared the winner for comment of the month for May!
I’m expecting an appropriate – given your VM interests and the fact that we are now enjoying our summer weather – case of Frascati Superiore. I’m sure given your location a quick trip to Berry Brothers and Rudd on Pall Mall would do the trick and you can e-mail me for my address.
Booby prize of a tin of Glenryck pilchards could be sent to a certain contributor in Viet Nam.
@ Steve – “Hear, hear!” On both counts! I think a case is pushing the envelope, but a bottle for sure!
Me mate Albo, in Hanoi for a quick sqizz at the downed B52 and to sample local cuisine, almost knocked his bowl of pho bo tai over when he read your scotch pilchard comment. Seems that’s what he thought he had ordered and asked me to see if we might get a serving with nassi lemak. Had to tell the duffer that he should have got dropped off in Penang if that’s what he craved.
Dee to Lovecraft, and the journey around the world, all fits into this topological object without edge.
Diane, meanwhile, I will draft a plan regarding my theory. In the past days I have published a new pdf. It’s about entire text of 57v. This page is distinct, one can see it even without any decoding attempts. It’s a compilation of rules and explanations, reveals the meaning of some glyphs, guidelines for handling of the material, among others. Make up your own opinion (click on my name).
Would be glad to hear your opinion
Matt –
still nothing to do with ‘daiin.. daiin’
There used to be a Voynich article on a site called nabataea.net.
Last year, wanting refresh my memory of it, I found the Voynich article gone and an email to the site owner met no reply.
I see today, though, I find it has a couple of articles about Shisr and the ‘Ubar/Iram’ question. You an skip the first few paras which are lightweight but it gets better as it goes. Some nice graphics and photos, cites its sources and seems pretty respectable overall.
A couple of paragraphs –
“Rather than finding a lost city in the sand, Clapp’s expedition discovered a well known watering spot, as the photo on the right illustrates (1959). Bertram Thomas (1931) writes of visiting Shisr, as does Thesiger (1950) . The site was visited in 1953 by Wendell Phillips, The photo on the right was taken in 1959 from the air. When the team of explorers showed up the local people housed them in three new buildings. So much for lost cities under the sands.”
…
Today, archeologists seem to have collectively agreed that Wadi Rum in Jordan is the ancient home of the city of Iram. It is in southern Jordan, in the valley known as Wadi Rum. This was identified long ago by Yaqut, in his book Buldan. Today this has been confirmed with several inscriptions.” [includes photos of inscriptions]
from ‘Shisr in South Arabia’, nabataea.net n/d
Diane, here is the Wikipedia page on the subject at hand:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iram_of_the_Pillars
It seems to.me to be less certain than those scholars that seem to have come to some kind of agreement, whoever they are.
Here is the page for the place in question.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_Rum
You might look at the computer games that have been developed recent for spiritual guidance, that are mentioned in the article. I have played Sunless Sea, where Irem…well lets just say you would have to play it. It is a somewhat completely spiritual entity, rather than scholarly one. Caravan , is another game that has you start in the city (with a Caravan), though you don’t go back as it is consumed by sandstorms ala Irem. It is located from memory in the Rubakhali, not Jordan. Some Bedoin consult might be interesting. I will check my network perhaps.
You need not question why I am being hardheaded. I am somewhat for a romantic as people might know. It is quite interesting the overlap this has with the Rubaiyat I agree!
Darius,
Thanks for referring me to your paper. You know that it’s a fairly firm rule with me that I stick to my own field and don’t offer opinions about Voynichese, other than occasional mentions in historical or other background for the drawings.
On that point, I have to say that folio 57v presents so many anomalies that I do not think it beyond all possibility that the diagram could have been added as late as Kircher’s time. That wouldn’t, in itself, count against your reading of the page as a key to grammar and so on. After all, Kircher counts Aramaic among his many languages. Among the other peculiarities is evidence of instruments’ being used – Rich Santacoloma pointed out that the diagram on folio 57v has three centres and shows the mark of dividers or ‘compass’ (the instrument, not the Rose). In a manuscript which doesn’t show signs even of ruling-out so far as we can determine, that’s certainly anomalous.
What I mean is that while as many have long suspected (if I recall, Nick among them) that f.57v is a key to Voynichese, I would be reserved about supposing its composition all of a piece with the rest of the Voynichese text. Just a thought.
What John Sanders didn’t tell you is:
1) He made me pay for every morsel we ate during my stay in Ha Noi. He didn’t even share the tin of pilchards he received from some bloke in London.
2) He spent most of his time staring at his mobile and muttering something like “Stuey phooey I’ll get you-ee”
3) He got so sozzled that when I went to the dunny I came back and found his dentures stuck in my pork bánh bao and the idiot was gurning and blushing like Popeye when he encounters April North:
https://youtu.be/nN4l1kInmRs
@D. N. O’Donovan
I had earlier yesterday morning (9:36 am) posted a link to the nabataea.net article you mentioned and quoted the same bit about Wadi Rum. It seems to me that there is some sleight of hand in the article as Iram is only introduced late on, in the piece we both quoted. The rest of it is about Ubar. As I said to Matt in my comment: “There does seem to be some confusion about the “Atlantis of the Sands”.”
@Matthew Lewis
First of all let me say how much I enjoyed your The Monk. One of my favourite gothic novels for sure. Naughty old Matilda!
I am as confused as you (and Matt – who may or may not be your cyber doppelganger) are about Ubar, Iram etc etc. However I am even less interested in computer games than I am in the Voynich manuscript (Whoops! Sorry Pilchard).
The full stanza (V) from the Rubaiyat goes:
“Iram indeed is gone with all its Rose,
And Jamshyd’s Sev’n-ring’d Cup where no one knows;
But still the Vine her ancient Ruby yields,
And still a Garden by the Water blows.”
According to The Victorian Web: “Iram is a legendary garden. Jamshyd is also legendary — a pre-Islamic king who is said to have brought the arts of civilisation into being. By looking in his seven-ringed cup, he could see what was going on in any part of the world. His court was at Persepolis.”
Now, if some dead guy had turned up in Australia way back when with a copy of the Voynich manuscript on his chest that WOULD have been interesting!
What’s the point if one can’t have a little fun without the Grinch stomping all over it!
I know for a fact that other people get away with pseudonyms without being outed. It’s the second time – I previously posted as Steve H – amongst other names admittedly – until The Moderator doxxed me.
For JS and NP:
To misquote Mae West from ‘Klondike Annie’: “You’re no oil painting, and you ain’t no fascinating monster either.”
Steve,
Nice co-incidence. Or maybe not. Not that much comes up in a search ‘Shisr’ or ‘Ubar’. If your comment had already been cleared, I didn’t notice the link. If not, I guess our messages crossed. *shrug*.
Steve,
Quite. Though if he showed up with a copy of the the VM *in* his chest ala Brad Meltzer “The House of Secrets” it would he much more interesting. I didnt finish the book, but wondered if this is what Brad may think about the VM. The little drawing of the figure with little bubbles leading to a pot has intrigued some theorists (f.66r) famous amongst those (I conjecture) the CBS TV show “Elementary” that had an episode devoted to the VM. I imagine it is streamable, but what that drawing even is… who knows? Was the manuscript discovered in the innards of some dead soul? That would truly crazy.
Yes, The Monk is quite familiar to me, and Matthew Lewis is my actual name, I think all the “Matt” comments so far on here are mine. Though maybe I will go by Matt L in the future to avoid confusion.
Do you think Iram was in Persepolis? For those less geographically inclined(I can be that way sometimes even), Persepolis was neither in Jordan nor Saudi Arabia, but in SW Iran, near Shiraz from my charts.
Nick.
I have a first draft of a strokes-based transcription derived algorithmically from the distinctions made in GC’s transcription. He implicitly distinguishes five variants of the final stroke of n, but none of them relate to the feature you are talking about, the possible dot and the length of the horizontal extension leftwards. Have you got a list of your observations which I could use?
Diane, thanks for your answer; and no need to sell yourself short regarding decoding competence. So Kircher had semitic languages on his radar? I think without the key you can’t specify exactly the language; you can only estimate rough the family and a lot of people did this correctly.
I’ll try to facilitate the decoding process to engage more people – with a software that partially automates the translation and with some prompts for GPT use. However, it will still be an intellectual challenge. Implementing this will take some time, a few months.
But for now, I will take a break not only from the VMS but also from most of my other more profane projects.
And Diane, how much of historical background the text disclosed already! All the names of towns and places, how they called themselves: the Poor, etc, etc. Isn’t it something for historical examination?
Philip: I made notes on these quite some years ago, I’ll see if I can dig them up…
Diane, if I type Arin into Google translate, it transliterates it as Aryn before rendering it in the cursive/calligraphic sense which I am not sure how to reproduce here. Is this what would be on a map and if so are there any maps extant where it is rendered? A picture as they say, says a thousand words.
If you made a book with your idea I would buy it just out of curiosity, I would buy it. Diane Diane Diane. Haha.
I did find the Vistas of Astronomy article online and it is as you say.
Philip Neal, nice to see you are still here. I happen to be a Neal myself, several generations back.
Matt
An academic press commissioned some essays from me, – more complete versions of the summaries put up through voynichimagery – but between the time that the essays were commissioned and when they were almost ready, so much of what I’d shared online been pilfered – not least by being circulated as anonymous ‘ideas’ and/or by incorporation into sites carrying copyright dates earlier than the research was done, that the publishers found themselves faced with legal spaghetti. Add to that, the determined ‘ad hominems’ from a handful of Voynicheros – the publishers found not even a basic review of my work anywhere in the Voynich sites, and my name mentioned only in ad.hominems – that they felt the market would be deterred.
Matt, you may find it difficult to understand, but I didn’t mind very much. I’m too old to be ambitious, don’t need the money and quite happy with my reputation outside Voynich studies. For established scholars to become publicly associated with the Vms isn’t such a good idea. I admire Jules Janick for having done so, and survived.
About Arin – as referenced above – just look for Ujjain in G/maps.
In the Voynich map, in my opinion, it’s an idealised location; the ‘world centre’ . It’s not the only possibility. As I say, 80+%. I’ve also considered Mar’ib.
Matt
I know Persepolis is in Iran, as I’m sure our friend Darius does. it was Jamshyd – or Jamshid – (see stanza V of the Rubaiyat) who supposedly had his court there. However according to Wikipedia “Jamshid’s capital was erroneously believed to be at the site of the ruins of Persepolis, which for centuries (down to 1620 CE) was called Takht-i Jamshēd, the “Throne of Jamshid”. However, Persepolis was actually the capital of the Achaemenid kings and was destroyed by Alexander.”
I studied social anthropology, not archaeology, and believe me there is no love lost between the two. Without living “informants” and an observable context it is usually pure speculation and/or specious analogy to assign meaning, purpose and function to any structure, object or manuscript.
I don’t know Brad Meltzer’s book. I don’t know where Iram was/is, if indeed it actually existed at all. I don’t know where Atlantis. Agharta, the Lost City of the Kalahari or Brigadoon were either. I do know that Agharta is a rather good live Miles Davis album and that Sun Ra had an interesting album called Atlantis, which besides the title track includes tracks titled ‘Mu’ and ‘Lemuria’.
Darius –
Can’t vouch for it but a list of languages Kircher claimed competence in is included in the frontispiece of one of his books. Possibly his Prodromus Coptus sive Aegyptiacus (?).
Thanks for your kind words, too, but it’s a plain fact that I can’t “sell myself short” on the subject of ciphers, Voynichese &ct., because it would be impossible to know less about them than I do.
I hate to tell you this but you are reading it wrong.
After much studying of other manuscripts, Voynich is slowly opening up to me and I have been able to decipher multiple things in multiple sections. So, my assumptions of a lot things are slowly becoming accurate but it is not daiin. I will tell you that much, you are missing some key factors.
The reason everyone is having issues with this particular manuscript is that everyone keeps attacking it the same way. I have started to attack it differently by using other manuscripts to be my Rosetta stone. It has opened up complete areas. From everything I have deciphered so far…It is in Latin, it is written in an unique style of Miniscule that started at least 100 years prior (as I found another manuscript with characters that are almost the same). It is limited region where this miniscule was used…but yeah, it is not daiin.
I would like to narrow down where it was exactly written, but as of this moment…that part is stumping me.
I am also not sold on the section that everyone says is female biology, There are a few reasons for that, it appears to be either a section about geography or about herbal usage. I know, a wide range there…but in some of the words I have deciphered I got soap, swimming, and bathing. Also, one section seems to be a specific section about wine making.
Diane, you have your own very strong feelings about things, which I pointed out very clearly somewhat recently. What you said about other scholars, which I guess is still on your website, was borderline ad hominem in an thing that has for the most part no clear answers yet. I am not trying to rehash it. Your idea is it has something to do with the Arin astronomical meridian. Noted. I thought there might be more.
I find it in general with everyone not just Diane, that the Voynich doesn’t seem to just have scientists studying it, but almost as much “advocates”. Take care, because the VM seems to have a built in ability to humble.
Steve, Meltzers book(which I need to finish) concerns someone who is found dead with Benedict Arnold’s bible stuffed in his innards. Very bizarre. The CBS VM epidsode *spoiler alert*
From memory concerns the idea that there is/was some sort of
drug ring smuggling highly potent cocaine used in some surgeries in peoples guts. The 66r image I am guessing inspired this idea.
Yes, I read about Persepolis just now. There is some uncertainty about what it was and was used for, and as you said that Alexander plundered it. Iran would be a natural place for the anthropology/archaeology antagonism to fester, because of its remoteness and current inaccessibility. You cant just buzz over to its highly desirable ruins to double check an item for your doctorate or whatever, I don’t think. I hope this will change.
The are what look to be “pillars” on the central “spore”. I think Nick believes this is in fact representative of St. Marks in Venice . I’m starting to wonder if the whole structure is some weird take on Irem, the idea is it exists on a dimensional rather than worldly level, but occasionally reveals itself the psychics and sensitives. FWIW, the “pillars” seem to represent what has been termed apothecary jars in the early part of the manuscript, so an alchemical meaning is not impossible. They are pretty lame looking pillars honestly. The Rosettes have a definite “loftiness” I think
Yes I know a bit about the Persian Darius I. The copy of Darius’ Behistun inscription is an important example for Imperial Aramaic, the administrative language of his empire. In my opinion, not quite our plaintext case but he would be able to understand the authors and the scribes.
…after decoding of 57v my key is still missing one last glyph meaning factor… but this glyph is used only once so it is not a big factor
Matt
Interesting idea about Iram/Irem.
Could be like Shambhala, the mythical Hindu/Buddhist Kingdom. The capital city was supposedly Kalapa. From an article on Ancient Origins website:
“The legend of Shambhala is said to date back thousands of years, and reference to the mythical land can be found in various ancient texts. The Bön scriptures speak of a closely related land called Olmolungring. Hindu texts such as Vishnu Purana mention Shambhala as the birth place of Kalki, the final incarnation of Vishnu who believers claim will usher in a new Golden Age. The Buddhist myth of Shambhala is an adaptation of the earlier Hindu myth .
However, the text in which Shambhala is first discussed extensively is the Kalachakra.* The Kalachakra refers to a complex and advanced esoteric teaching and practice in Tibetan Buddhism . Shakyamuni Buddha is said to have taught the Kalachakra on request of King Suchandra of Shambhala.
As with many concepts in the Kalachakra, the idea of Shambhala is said to have outer, inner, and alternative meanings. This makes it complicated for the uninitiated to truly understand what Shambhala really is. The outer meaning understands Shambhala to exist as a physical place, although only individuals with the appropriate karma can reach it and experience it as such.”
*Kalacakra (sic) were an obscure “krautrock” band who made one album, Crawling to Lhasa. Check it out! We’ll pass over Three Dog Night’s ‘Shambala’.
Theosophists (as well as the Nazis and the hippies) took the idea and ran with it.
“Later esoteric writers further emphasized and elaborated on the concept of a hidden land inhabited by a hidden mystic brotherhood whose members labor for the good of humanity. Alice A. Bailey claims Shamballa (her spelling) is an extra-dimensional or spiritual reality on the astral plane, a spiritual centre where the governing deity of Earth, Sanat Kumara, dwells as the highest Avatar of the Planetary Logos of Earth, and is said to be an expression of the Will of God.” (Wikipedia)
Also from Wikipedia, on Kalapa:
“Kalapa, according to Buddhist legend, is the capital city of the Kingdom of Shambhala where the Kulika King is said to reign on a lion throne. It is said to be an exceedingly beautiful city with a sandalwood pleasure grove containing a huge three-dimensional Kalachakra mandala made by King Suchandra.
Kalapa Court, the palace of the king, stands on a platform of pearl in the center. The building is nine stories high. The roof and floor of the king’s chamber consist of crystal plants that radiate heat for warmth. The city is shaped like a square and surrounded by walls made of ruby. There are four gates for entry made of precious stones. There are 31 pavilions each of which is surrounded by gardens and streams.”
For more (much more) on Shambhala, the underground realm of Agharta, occult Nazis and UFOs see:
https://www.foundationwebsite.org/OnBulwerLytton.htm
Brigadoon of course rises out of the mists once every hundred years for a single day, but is also a suburb of Perth, Australia!
A follow up from my earlier comment today.
I actually took the trouble to read some of the article I provided a link to and found an interesting passage about a group called the “Polaires”. Probably they’ve been covered elsewhere on this blog but they’re new to me. It all involves Agharta, the Cathars, the Rosicrucians and more.
From Joscelyn Godwin in ‘Arktos : The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism and Nazi Survival’ (1996):
“”In 1908 […] a young Franco-Italian, Mario Fille, met a hermit who lived in the hills near Rome. Going by the name of father Julian, this hermit confided to Fille a sheaf of old parchments, telling him that they contained an Oracle. Consultation of this Oracle took place through word and number manipulation, but the processes called for were painstaking and lengthy, and Fille did not bother with them until about twelve years later (that is, about 1920), at a time of personal crisis. Thereupon he followed the instructions, which were to phrase one’s question in Italian, adding one’s name and the maiden name of one’s mother, turn them into numbers, and make with them certain mathematical operations. At the end of several hours’ work, a final series of numbers emerged which, when retranslated into letters, gave a cogent and grammatically correct answer to one’s question. Fille was amazed. Apparently the Oracle never failed to behave with perfect reliability, though its answers were sometimes in English or German. Obedient to Père Julian’s command, Fille alone possessed the key to its manipulation.
“One of the first questions to ask such an oracle is “Who are you?” Working with his friend and fellow-musician Cesare Accomani, Fille learned that this was called the “Oracle of Astral Energy”: that it was not a method of divination like some Kabbalistic oracles or the I Ching, but an actual channel of communication with the “Rosicrucian Initiatic Center of ‘Mysterious’ Asia” situated in the Himalayas and directed by the “Three Supreme Sages” or the “Little Lights of the Orient,” who live in – Agartha. These at first included Father Julian, then, after his passing on 8 April 1930, purported to come from a “Chevalier Rose-Croix” who was guessed to be a favorite of the neo-Theosophists, the “Master Racoczy,” sometime incarnated as Roger Bacon, Francis Bacon, and the Comte de Saint-Germain.
“Fille and Accomani settled in Paris, where the Oracle was demonstrated to a group of journalists and writers in the hope that they would publicize it. Some were favorably enough impressed to contribute to Accomani’s book about it: Asia Mysteriosa, published in 1929 under the pseudonym of “Zam Bhotiva.””
See: https://evolaasheis.proboards.com/thread/15/polaires
Then there’s The wooden book of Montségur, “in truth not made out of wood, nor a book. It is a set of six – and in origin 18 – thin palm leaves, upon which is what is clearly a non-European or Arabic type of writing, as well as some depictions of animals and geometric shapes.”
“in the early 20th century, a series of palm leaves, containing anomalous writing, were apparently discovered within a hidden cache of the walls of the Cathar castle of Montségur. Though without any intrinsic value, the “wooden book” – as it became known – would become the centrepiece of the esoteric and metaphysical community; its discoverers even labelled it “the Oracle” and said it was able to contact the hidden masters of Agharta”
“Pages from the wooden book were depicted in a 1967 booklet “Un Oracle kabbalistique”. The authors were Mario Fille and René Odin…Interestingly, the 37-page thin booklet was recommended by the organisation as a manual to learn the method of divination – known as “the Oracle”…the history of this Order starts in Italy back in 1908 where a young Mario Fille meets a mysterious hermit during a holiday in Bagnaia [near Rome]. […] Fille apparently received some old and withered parchments from the old hermit who stated: ‘What you have here are some pages taken from the Book of Science of Life and Death: these pages contain a successful Method of Divination on an arithmetical basis.’” The hermit, “Father Julian” (Padre Guiliano) then explained the system, apparently telling Fille only to consult the oracle in times of need. This occurred in 1920, when Fille used the divinatory technique, and spoke about it to Cesaro Accomani, during a voyage to Egypt. The rest, as they say, is history….somewhere between 1939 and the late 1960s, Fille and Odin changed the story of how the parchments had been discovered, claiming they had found the parchments in Montségur.”
Above quotes are from: https://www.eyeofthepsychic.com/woodenbook/
Steve, yes I guess it could in fact be Shamabala. One interesting feature though that leads me to think it’s further west in its understanding is there is a cross on F.75v in the little row of ladies. On the right side a cross, on the left not a cross, or perhaps a poll, both objects seeming to me to eminate divine rays or energy. I would from this it would at minimum said to exhibit some knowledge of Christianity. If you are looking for something of a more Eastern nature, there might be a Nestorian connection, with our friends Thomas the Apostle, and Prestor John.
Reading about the Kalachakra, I like it’s style. It could in fact be even Brigadoon or the Fey, I suppose.
Matt L.
re your comment of June 7th
“Diane, you have your own very strong feelings about things…”
My feelings about Beinecke MS 408? I guess – Mild appreciation.
“What you said about other scholars, which I guess is still on your website, was borderline ad hominem”.
The record of deeds is history, not ad.hominem.
“the Voynich doesn’t seem to just have scientists studying it, but almost as much “advocates”.
Matt – please be specific. Which branches of science are you suggesting should be represented in the study of a medieval manuscript? What do you mean by ‘advocates’? If you mean that we have many theory-promoters and too little emphasis on the range, quality and balance of evidence adduced .. then I suppose I’d agree with you, but terms like ‘scientists’ and ‘advocates’ are so loose and ill-defined that there’s no way to be sure.
Diane, it is my believe most people who study the Voynich Manuscript have the very short sighted goal of stating a theory and then leaving if they don’t hear back comments or even gratitude on whatever idea they have. I would say history backs me up on this. Then again perhaps it has gotten to the point of such non discovery that some might just think pushing it into the direction they would like to see it go is enough these days. I was very chagrined that over time the established Roger Bacon theory was completely pushed out of the way to the point it seemed some were (still might be) trying to purposely blur history hoping perhaps for a quick win. I think its better now, but the Marci letter sort of got very much “de-emphasized” as being accurate or even talked about because people became so set on disproving it. How stupid could people get? Its hard to say. Seeing Philip Neal on here I will allow that I don’t know if the letter could be a hoax. Not impossible, but it must be proven and I think it very unlikely.
I guess I feel when one data point was introduced, folks thought a lot was up for grabs that wasn’t. In my opinion it was/is not out of the question Bacon could be inspirational somehow in the text.
For all of her paleographic prowess, Lisa Davises article in the Washington Post was I think this was very arrogant commentary. This the one that said “Why Do People Keep Convincing Themselves They’ve Solved The Voynich Manuscript?”
Maybe not out of step with belief at the time, but in general, blah.
This to me is Yale at its Elite worst, and it really makes me wonder why my Congregationalist ancestors worked so hard to back Yale. People should be aware that Yale disassociated itself from the United Church of Christ in 2005, so while I still haven’t given up totally on them, my opinion of Elihu Yale’s institution *and* academia in general has plummeted since then. Did I overemphasize the efforts of my fellow congrys? Perhaps. It would be really nice to have some clarity there. Tangible ownership is a lot in the VM debate. Its everything in my research, I don’t have much else, truly. Perhaps I will try to learn some cryptography, though at the moment I only have a smidge. I know what a cross looks like though. Strange that it has escaped discussion so well.
I tend to trust science which has strong evidential basis. Stuff that either I can either understand or I am fairly certain someone I know can. You can work out for yourself the areas that I probably look on as either unproven, or really with askance. It doesn’t mean I think they are untrue, just I am not certain, and have reason to think people could be fudging. I should repeat when in doubt I tend to side with the doctorates, masters and bachelors, associates in that order. They don’t automatically get a magic pass from me usually. Sometimes maybe.
I guess I would tell Lisa, if she were listening, that perhaps because the few that have gone before haven’t solved anything, the road is still kinda wide open with the VM. I don’t think Roger Bacon can be ruled out, even if he didn’t technically write it. It seems to me that Marci probably had time to think things over before even insinuating it. He was a big shot, who people think might have been a member of the Royal Society. I guess his obviously friendship with the Jesuits, (which he wasn’t a member of most likely either) has justifiably called this into question.
Matt L.,
On the matter of ‘scientists’:
[ quote]
Law and medicine, linguistics, history and geography are arts… So is philosophy. This doesn’t stop them being *scientific* in the sense of being systematic, effective and well-related to the findings in other disciplines….
[end quote]
– part of a longer quotation in
Emilie Savage-Smith, ‘The Universality and Neutrality of Science’.
Published as a book-chapter (2014); now uploaded at academia.edu.
Failure to argue a case that is well-informed by, and well-related to, solid studies from other relevant disciplines is serious flaw throughout Voynich studies. I might also say that if it is scientific to imagine that the opinions of male Voynich researchers spring from their brains, but of women from ‘feelings’ or ‘temperament’, then it’s science on par with phrenology.
Darius and others – re languages.
Two potentially useful works to test readings of Voynichese are a polyglot bible of 1657 and a collection of texts in a volume associated with Athanasius Kircher – Brit.Lib. Additional MS 5242
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Add_MS_5242
among the library’s comments on the second are:
The manuscript contains biblical and liturgical pieces, respectively written in the following languages: Latin, modern Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, Jewish Babylonian Aramaic, Ethiopic, Arabic, Persian, Coptic, Spanish, Italian, French and German..
. The Latin, Greek, Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic, and Persian of the biblical passages are taken from the Walton’s SS. Biblia Polyglotta (London, 1657). Under the Coptic version of the Lord’s Prayer in Add.Ms 5242 is written: “Ex Celeberrimi Viri Athanasii Kircheri Prodromo Copto.”
Don’t fool people. You are many light years away from the significance of the voynich manuscript. Atlatida, Shambala, etc. is very far from the correct meaning of the manuscript. Or Diana writes about A. Kircher. Why Kircher? Kircher may have been clever. But he knew little to understand the text of the manuscript.
Otherwise, as for the scientist L.F. So I read that Davis wrote. I was very naive when I hoped to decipher the voynich manuscript with my brother, who is an IT specialist in my youth.
As I already wrote to everyone here. This is written in the text of the manuscript:
I write in Czech.!!!!
So every scientist who would like to decipher the text of the manuscript should know what language???
Manuscript 408 is also encrypted : Jewish cipher !!!!
Does any scientist even know the Jewish cipher ????
As far as I can tell, no scientist knows the Jewish cipher !!!
Here in the Czech Republic, several universities are working on the text. But they work poorly. Their manager, who has 4 degrees, wrote to me: That they need my help. To give them the key.
I just have to laugh at that. :-))))))
Yeah, I’ll give them the key. And then it will be written everywhere that the university solved it with their boss. 🙂
No scientist in Australia, USA, Britain, Germany, Holland, Poland, Switzerland, Austria, Russia, etc. will ever be able to decipher the text of the manuscript. Why ???? Because it is written in the Czech language. And encrypted with a Jewish cipher. Which is quite difficult.
Matt
I wasn’t suggesting that Shambhala was depicted in the VM, but thought it provided a (probably specious) analogy with your idea about Irem as a location accessible only to mystics.
I would add that in my last post which provided links to a couple of sites to do with the “Polaires” I am in no way endorsing the views or theories advocated therein. The first link in particular to ‘Evola As He Is’ should have come with a health warning as Julius Evola was a particularly unpleasant Italian fascist theorist and magical idealist who also spent time in Nazi Germany, but even they thought he was a crank and “reactionary Roman”. He has also been referenced by Steve Bannon as an “influence” – say no more! The article on the “Polaires” itself however doesn’t seem to condone these views. Most of their ideas seem merely laughable.
I agree with you about evidence based research although my own approach isn’t entirely in line with a reductionist, materialist, “scientistic” point of view. Not that I advocate an esoteric or Hermeticist angle or anything of that sort as I believe there is an inherent tendency in those studies, particularly since the nineteenth century, towards elitism, right wing extremism and fascism, which is why mysticism is so appealing to racist and anti-Semitic nuts.
On another thread I provided some quotes from Nietzsche – another “problematic” thinker, but I can agree with his thesis that truth is the product of “a sum of human relations”, ie that “facts”, “evidence”, “truth” and so on are social constructs and not grounded in some transcendental “reality”. But then my training was as a social scientist so maybe I would say that.
I probably don’t have anything to add on this topic as the VM isn’t really in my field of interest. Fight fascism in all its manifestations!
Steve, yes, very interesting indeed. I will need to take an agnostic approach to the “polaires” for now, and it requires more attention than I have right now to read at the moment, though I will.
One similar thing I think if we are coming up with Rosette theories, is the “Dharma hatches” on “Lost” island. If you followed that show you would know, who is actually in charge of the mysterious island is kind of unclear, and it takes close attention to detail, rewinds etc, you can sort of work out who got their first, and who is in charge, though in the end what the “answers” are, are a bit elusive. “Just where is this “island”? is a major one. The makers borrowed from Thomas More, Francis Bacon, Robert Anton Wilson, and Umberto Eco. Was it inspired by the Voynich? Perhaps.
I am curious where More got his idea for Utopia, because if you look at the Wikipedia page (at last check), people still aren’t sure what his entire point was even in writing Utopia. The manuscript according to the radiocarbon analysis should have kicking around somewhere when he put pen to paper. Hmmm.
Matt,
I really don’t understand this obsession with inventing theories before getting to work .
I understand the theory of forming theories – Nick has explained it very clearly in earlier exchanges – but in practice once a person has used their imagination, sprinkled it with a little historical fairy dust in the form of well-known Personalities, it is such a temptation to behave as if the answer to all questions is known already, and all the researcher need do is hunt out more bits and pieces to encourage others to believe.
It’s not how people normally go about treating a problematic drawing. Questions come first. Then the slog of attempting to produce and balance relevant evidence and only last of all (if at all) research-conclusions as proffered ‘answers’ to those specific questions.
Of course any method is subject-appropriate and that method may not be appropriate for cracking a cipher or solving a problem in structural engineering, but if you read a few studies from art history and technical iconographic analyses, you will see I’m not romancing. The basic problem is that you cannot form any theory from more than you already happen to know – but to presume you already know enough to form a valid theory is awfully risky with drawings that eluded understanding in England and in America and more recently even more widely for over a hundred years. The place to begin with the Voynich map, if I might offer advice, is with its four cardinal markers. Then you know which way up it should be placed. Then, perhaps, try to identify the style of drawing used for each of the four, and the environment from which we have the forms given its ‘North’ and ‘South’ .. which should indicate an appropriate region, time and cultural environment because such symbols are habitual and habits are ‘tells’. Bon voyage 🙂
Diane, there are no theories being invented, just ideas being tossed around about the contents which should have frankly, been talked about a long time ago. I was able to get my photoflo copy generously from Yale far earlier than many actually in the cryptography business, because I felt I didn’t much to lose and I asked nicely. I paid the fee at the time about $35 dollars I think, but I didn’t have to sign anything that I think I heard others might have had to. I’m guessing some of this had to do with the fact that yes, many of my ancestors were going back to to the Pilgrims from New England, so the was a warmish vibe to relations (I think I might actually be related to then Curator Robert Babcock, distantly). But there are friends you know, and there is family. Anyone interested should really take a look at the relations between the Plymouth Company, and the Massachusetts Bay Company, and see they weren’t exactly bff’s. I asked my mom about Yale at the time and she said, “well, you know it was a lonnng time ago”. So I have never been “overthetop” pushy about things. It is Yale’s MS. I have always accepted this.
Anyway, having this connection got me a very early glimpse of it, and what a glimpse it was. The current facsimile, does quite capture the oddness of the manuscript with its very muted and very faded tones I think. See it in high contrast stark black and white, with fresh eyes, and you will go through it, and say “hmmmm” at the Herbal parts, “weird!” at the nymph part, and “holy crap!!” when you finally hit the Rosettes. The process of revelation to the world of MS, the “wonder” of it and the effort many made, is lost to those who didn’t have to fight to have it be so. You(and others, a certain loudmouth, bandwagon jumping Brit who thinks he’s still owed somehow,for instance) essentially had it handed to you, and I presume by your still(!} blaise contempt for it, and all those who tried to figure it out honorably, think somehow you are owed something. Whatever. I do not think things are going to be so rosy for the folks who oversee it now. Its going on four years since that little hissy article critical of amateurs came out, and they still have essentially have nothing. Yes, they have what sounds like a good idea of the multiple hands that made it, beyond that I would say nothing substantially has been learned of its origin, or purpose since it was first found. 80 percent certainty? Please.
It is amazing how stupid people can be in this country, though. We have a president that has been indicted on essentially unknown grounds. Yes, he misbehaved with some documents apparently. What exactly was in those documents? Its secret. So will they send him to jail without any kind of revelation? At this point I wouldn’t rule it out.
All kinds of secrets out there Diane. I tend to share mine with family, only. Hasta la vista, baby.
Matt L
We can agree on one thing, I think. The manuscript deserves to be treated no less seriously, and with no less respect than any other 600+ yr old manuscript. I’ve no idea where you got an idea that I feel contempt for it. If I did, I shouldn’t waste any time on it, let alone be reviewing the history of its study to understand how and why Voynich studies has followed its peculiar course.
Matt. 6:34
Diane, I never said I thought you had contempt for it. I said you seem blaise about it meaning: world weary about it. Like you had seen something else like it before maybe, I’m not sure I can make sense on any researchers mental understanding of the VM, which is part of its charm (or weirdness) actually.
What does Matt 6:34 mean that was at the end of your message? That and “Bon Voyage” on the other one. I made the mistake of reply in kind to that one. Some sort of cryptographic communication?
Diane, ok…I see I said you had “blaise contempt” my bad. I guess I mean you are very dismissive of how truly bizarre it is. This is not that unusual for relative newcomers. Most researchers fit this category to be honest. Many of them make a determination most obviously in error thinking they are above it. That if they cant figure it out, it is almost certainly some sort of you know, fake thing, or unimportant thing and then they move on. Perhaps its something like you know, Codex Seraphinianus, which the author has been revealed and has admitted it is meaningless. Now its not for sure it has meaning, it could in fact be meaningless.
Lisa Fagin Davis’s findings about multiple hands which I accept, but only gave a cursory glance at would indicate that its construction was with multiple scribes, and this would mean that lone nut theory about its construction was wrong. Its lack of meaning was intentional by a group of people. A block paradigm solution in this case would not suffice, to me anyway. Whether you like it or not, you have to get into the “why” of it.
Jesting, Pilate said “What is Truth?” and would not stay for a reply.
Matt L,
I’ve been interested in this manuscript since mid-2007 with a first public contribution to the study in 2008, with summaries of ongoing and original research to 2017 when, tired of the plagiarism by the same few individuals, closed it off from public access. Everyone is entitled to due credit for their work and it would be false modesty to say I make an exception about that in my own case.
Lisa Fagin Davis has said she recognises 5 distinct scribal hands, but we’ve known for decades that there was more than one.
On your other point – If there’s a pomegranate in a barrel of apples, and I’m told it’s just the weirdest apple – completely unique among apples – I might believe what all the chaps say from some idea of truth-by-vote, but then again, I might start thinking whether there are more like it beyond the apple barn..
Diane, well we obviously don’t *know* that there is. If something like that was to come to be light it would definitely be news. I sort of was wondering what you were getting at with your “any other 600+ yr old manuscript”. Not impossible. I still don’t quite know what the full reach of the Voynich I guess “meme” is, and I have often wondered if there are out of the way libraries in Europe that have manuscript collections that haven’t seen the light of day.
I have heard that one can collect incunabula, and since it is a pretty penny for an entire one; you can buy individual pages for far less. Any info would be appreciated. Definitely don’t throw that stuff away.
Anyway, a toast to you and anybody who has stuck through this. When you study the VM, to paraphrase Betty Davis, it might be a bit of a “bumpy ride”!
Diane, thanks for sharing the link. The script contains intriguing pictures and text, such as the depiction of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist, overseen by God and the saints (folio 17v), and the name of God is YHWH, written in Hebrew above. If we had only access to all the scripts Kircher studied. However, even without that, the key is now known, a potential deciphering of every page is possible. For now, I will take a break from VMS.
Unfortunately, there won’t be any progress in decoding for several months, as no one else is currently delving into Aramaic or developing useful software tools for decoding. I hope there will be advancements in other fields (drawings, palaeography…), but as for decoding there will be nothing besides the usual big boring helplessness. I will return to working on the VMS when I have implemented some useful software.
Here is an article about what I mentioned earlier re: the UCC and Yale. It was some time ago 2005, though I have never heard about any change.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/12/nyregion/yale-ending-its-affiliation-with-a-church.html