My best wishes to all Cipher Mysteries subscribers, commenters and visitors for a wonderful and genuinely revealing 2015. 🙂
I had intended to use this post as an opportunity to go through some of the funky historical cipher-related things I’ve been planning for the year ahead, but I’ve had a last minute change of heart. Instead, all I’m going to say for now is that my plan is for this year to be full of splendid surprises, and I hope that you enjoy them all! Cheers!
Just so you know I will be waiting with bated breath. Dinner and “Irish” coffee for us — dancing until nearly 2 am.this morning. I’m now looking at a beautiful sunny morning while typing this greeting.
N’as Drovnya!
Happy New Year 2015!
Happy New Year….
Righto! Why wait? Let’s get moving.
I’d still like to see a category for ‘Heraldry” under the topic of ‘Historical Research.’ Surely there is enough material in the VMs Zodiac for this to be considered as a valid subject of discussion – in comparison with the current listings. The elements of evidence are plain enough, the discussion considers their potential interpretations. Isn’t that the goal?
Cheerio!
Remain in good heart, if you can. Best wishes.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot…..
Will Nick come to my rescue by finishing this refrain (which I’ve forgotten)? Note that I actually closed my parentheses!
Nasdrovnya!
All the best for 2015 Nick and may you continue to deliver great quality information and thanks for your help.
Na Zdorovie!
OK Sir Cramer, are we still on the same page as far as my being able to say n’as drov nya, herein? Or do we have to wait until Nick sneezes?
😉 smiley with a wink
This afternoon, I translated folios 199 through folio 253 of Friar Sahagun’s (and his assistant’s) “Florentine Manuscript”. It helped that each page of illustrations had commentary, side-by-side, in Espanol and Nahua-tl.
Nick: May I suggest Fr. Sahagun’s Libro Undecimo- General History of Things of New Spain. The very first pages of Book Eleven begin discussion/comparison of the wild cats: the jaguar (larger, blond with large dark blotches) and the ocelot (about half the size of the jaguar — and smaller blotches on an almost-white fur. I recognized both animals immediately. When my parents first arrived in California, they visited Tijuana (just across the border in Mexico). They returned home with my mother wearing an ocelot fur hat (pillbox style, similar to the style of hat which Jacqueline Kennedy favored.
BTW: Fr. Sahagun names each of these cats in that manuscript — you shouldn’t have any more trouble finding that publication than I did. Fray Sahagun and his scribes/illustrators did the best they could with the Native American narratives and descriptions.
Fun! Sometimes comic.
bdid1dr 😉
Considering the VMs Zodiac sequence in its current arrangement, there are some rather unusual characteristics. Aries and Taurus are apparently split into corresponding halves and the sequence starts with Pisces.
As far as I can tell, the standard, Medieval sequence of the Zodiac generally started with Aries and ended with Pisces, In astrology, Aries is the first house and Pisces is the twelfth. In the various illustrations of the Zodiac Man, Aries is the head and the two fish of Pisces are the feet.
Are there valid Medieval examples where the zodiac sequence starts with something other than Aries?
If the Pisces first sequence is applied to the Zodiac Man, there is a definite problem. Zodiac Man now has a pair of feet above his head. Not only that, in the example of the VMs representation, Zodiac Man has had his Aries and his Taurus split in two. That’s gotta hurt!
Now, like Janus with his faces looking to the past and to the future, the new and improved, VMs version of the Zodiac Man also has a pair of hovering feet waiting for a mouth to open.
From a standard Medieval, European perspective, the Pisces first sequence in the VMs is seriously problematic – but there it is. Does this indicate that the text originated from an alternative source or a non-standard culture? Is it the random result of astrological ignorance? What other explanations can be offered?
If it is wrong, how wrong is it? Is it intentionally wrong? And why?
Well, the vernal equinox was already in Pisces when the VMS was put down. Is that a bad explanation?
It’s certainly a relevant fact and it’s true that the equinox has been in Pisces since the middle of the first century BCE. So if it is necessary to include the vernal equinox in the first month of the Zodiac sequence, from an astronomical perspective, then Pisces should be first, and the VMs start would be nothing unusual.
On the astrological side, astrology began when the equinox really was in Aries. That’s the thing about tradition: remember not to change. But what I ran into with some frequency, were a number of Medieval representations of the Zodiac Man, which would appear to present illustrations of significant information, and still using the Aries first sequence. And apparently not too bothered that the equinox had moved into the sign that precedes Aries.
Beginning with Pisces could be a scientific, astronomical innovation as opposed to astrological tradition. If so, then perhaps there are other examples of Zodiac sequences that have the same Pisces first sequence. That is why I was asking for any relevant examples from Medieval Europe that did not begin with Aries and were laid out in a sequence like the VMs. So many Zodiac representations are circular and I’ve not found another example that is linear and not astrologically predetermined.
Out*of*the*Blue: the whole what-kind-of-medieval-zodiac-tradition-starts-with-Pisces issue has been with us for years, even though D’Imperio merely threw up her hands in virtual despair – “The student’s first hope of getting anywhere through the known association with months or zodiac signs is soon disappointed, since thre is apparently little else in the diagrams that can be remotely associated with conventional astrological diagrams and horoscopes.” (“Elegant Enigma”, 3.3.3, p.16)
For what it’s worth, I’m still working on my next “block” match post, which attacks these zodiac pages from a notably different angle. It’s just that it needs a huge amount of work to get through…
Out*of*the*Blue:
What if this is some sort of a “folk calendar”, and so far that the calendar year in a certain land (e.g. Venice) began under Pisces, they go in the first place?
Just to complicate things further – here’s one where the ‘works and days’ or: ‘labours of the months’ series begins from January.
B.L. MS Additional 21114. northern France, (Liège) between 1255 and 1265.
Same system is used in England at that time e.g. B.L. MS Arundel 157, England, Central (Oxford) c. 1220 – c. 1240. (prob. Matthew Paris).
You can find many more calendars of the same sort in mss.
which is why the standing archer (fairly rare in Europe) turns up late in a German calendar, as marker of the month.
My guess would be that whatever activity was engaged by the person or people for whom the ms was first intended, it wasn’t engaged during the most bitter months of winter.
* standing archer as symbol for the constellation of Sagittarius and its month.
Another explanation is that the liturgical and ritual calendar used by those (unidentified) people began in February.
the main point is that the constellations were used quite routinely as symbols for the months. Because we don’t have any moralised astronomy as part of our curriculum, or include basic astronomy in our definition of mathematics that we assume reference to the constellations of the months must refer to astrology. In the medieval period, the situation was different.
Nick, Diane & Anton,
Thanks for your comments.
Obviously various cultures can and have started their annual calendars at various times of the year. Also clearly there are a number of aspects in the VMs Zodiac that are unusual. In this case, I just want to consider the starting point of the sequence. Diane has cited two examples that start in January.
My question is this. Suppose the VMs with its Pisces first sequence were presented to an educated person of the European Middle Ages. How would they react? Would they see (in general) as an unusual curiosity or an outrageous affront to the traditional standard. Astrology, of course, uses the traditional Aries first sequence. Where does the Pisces first sequence come from? Could there have been some sort of nascent, scientific version to correct for the movement of the vernal equinox?
The VMs can hardly be considered as setting a cultural standard, so, in part, the original concern is to determine what the Medieval European cultural standard was. Astrology certainly seems a major factor in that determination, though apparently not exclusive. On the other hand, are there European cultural examples where Pisces is first?
So, in other words, if Pisces first is a valid, alternative possibility, where are the cultural examples? Or if Pisces first, would have been unique and outlandish to readers of the Middle Ages, shouldn’t it be the same to us today? Which is it?
As Nick’s quote from D’Imperio shows, the search for astrologically significant connections in the VMs, while necessary, turns out to be mostly fruitless and frustrating. On the other hand there is something going on that is somewhat more superficial perhaps, generally unrecognized, but potentially significant – and that is pairing.
Look at the examples of pairing that are found in the initial VMs Zodiac pages: Pisces is a pair of fish, Aries has been split in two, with Taurus likewise, Gemini is twins, and Cancer is a pair of crayfish.
Look again! Aries is a split pair and Taurus is a split pair. Two pairs make a pair of pairs.
The fish of Pisces are paired. The crustaceans of Cancer are paired. Two pairs of aquatic animals. A second pair of pairs – and – gazinga! – a pair of paired pairs.
All of this ideological fluff pulled out of the first five VMs Zodiac pages. Maybe you get the hint? Pairing is a clue. Other examples exist on these same pages. You can see them for yourself, perhaps. I have a short list, but for another time.
Out*of*the*Blue:
About “beginning with Pisces”. I think we should be careful in resolute conclusions about what’s this sequence all about, until of course we find a satisfactory match somewhere in other literature. Specifically, no one has yet proved that this is a “Zodiac”. As an example that I suggested above, imagine that this is a calendar explaining what one should do (and what he should not) on certain days of a month. This kind of stuff has been known in “Germany” as “Volkskalender”, but I’m sure this is a phenomenon common for many times and lands. So if we e.g. decide that the “Pisces” month is February (or March), then the question is not “why the cycle begins with Pisces”, but “why the cycle begins with February (or March)”. The most suggestive answer would be: because the year began in February (or March). I don’t know about February, but as far as I understand (just for a couple of examples) the New Year’s day was e.g. 1 March in Venice, as well as 25th March e.g. in the Holy Roman Empire (but 25 March falls out of Pisces anyway) – that all was before the Gregorian calendar was adopted.
Next, note that all pictures (two are missing, hence we know nothing about them) have 30 human figures, with only “Pisces” having 29. When we see something close to 30, that at once suggests a month. So the additional question is why there is nothing with 31 “days”, e.g. has there been any calendar with no month of 31 days. Well yes, there have been, because the average synodic month is 29.5 days, so that could not but find the way into the calendars of somepeoples of the world.
So if I were developing this question, I would look not for obscure astrological matches, but for lunar calendars where the year begins under Pisces.
As for pairing, that’s obvious: sum up the two Arieses or the two Tauruses, and you’ll get 15+15 = 30 “days”. Why they are split in two? I don’t know.
Anton,
Even the most resolute conclusion can be reversed by solid evidence. And that was part of my original request. Where is there any solid evidence for a culture that used the sequence starting with Pisces?
Given that, in general, the central images of these VMs illustrations are not only recognizable as equivalent to Western Zodiac images, but also follows the same sequence, it’s rather difficult to deny the probability of common influence. So if the VMs is a calendar, it seems fairly clearly to be a sort of calendar- zodiac hybrid. However I would also question whether the VMs is a valid artifact from an unknown culture or a pseudo-artifact from an author-invented culture. I find myself tending more toward the second possibility.
In that scenario, Pisces has been placed first BECAUSE it is a pair. Aries and Taurus have been split in two to make them into pairs. No need to alter Gemini, but the pairing of Cancer is somewhat uncommon. The result of this is that the first five months of the VMs Zodiac in a somewhat subtle way present the reader with a pair of paired pairs and a pair – of twins. And the intended point is to promote the idea of pairing as a hint, a clue and a heuristic for further investigation.
Let’s try that out, starting with Pisces. At the top of the outer ring of figures are two nymphs together in tubs with vertically striped patterns, a pair. They are flanked on either side by nymphs in tubs with stippled patterns, a second pair. An inner pair and and outer pair make another pair of pairs. The patterns on the tubs of the outer ring of Pisces and in the two Aries illustrations are, in some cases, quite evocative of patterns found in heraldry.
So the VMs author is using the astrological signs of the zodiac to introduce the idea of pairing, then continues the idea of pairing by using examples of patterns from heraldry. Heraldry is a valid, standard method of communication in the European Middle Ages. Is there valid heraldry in the VMs? Does VMs heraldry include any valid historical connections? The investigation of heraldry depends on the researcher’s knowledge of heraldry. My investigations of additional heraldic pairings lead me to suggest that both questions should be answered affirmatively. The evidence is in the VMs.
Out*of*the*Blue,
Yes for sure you pose reasonable questions and the observations that you make are also valid, so I don’t dispute that there *might* be the level of complexity that you suggest. Unfortunately I am not able discuss all that stuff from the professional perspective, because I am not an art historian nor an armorist, rather I am a telecommunication industry guy. What I can provide as an input is only some solid reasoning and that great scientific tool known as Ockham’s razor.
Yes there is an obvious difference, I don’t dispute that it exists – in the “Pisces” picture the persons are naked, in several next ones they are partly naked, partly dressed, then they progressively become naked. The same with the tubs – they disappear in the later “months”, let alone their presumably heraldic decoration. Does that mean that there is no special meaning in the dresses and tubs? Certainly not. But does that mean that those dresses and decorations have special meaning from the perspective of the overall cycle? Not necessarily. It’s quite probable that the scribe just amused himself for the several pictures, incorporating some funny allusions to politics or heraldry, but then he got tired and the rest of the pictures are quite plain in appearance.
Taking your example with the pairs of tubs – yes you are right about the two pairs. But at this point the system is broken – the third pair does not match. So far that the hypothesis is not systematically supported by the facts, I’m dubious. A simpler explanation is that the scribe just vainly decorated the tubs for his amusement (probably using heraldic patterns that he was aware of, why not?)
The fact that some animals are “paired” as “dark and light” deserves attention, I don’t have any idea how to explain it, but to build the whole “theory of pairs” out of it – is, I think, too artificial.
I agree with your point about the “pseudo-artifact”, but I probably interpret it in a slightly different way. In modern jugglery (especially if it’s related to medicine or politics) it’s common to mix different traditions and cultures and make a complete mess of them. Since the things just stay the same in the process or their change, this, I presume, might have been the case in medieval alchemy as well. A guy familiar with different traditions could just make a mix of them, to make his work look more enigmatic and important. Take Eastern Calendar, add Western Zodiac, don’t forget a stylish archer and here you get your exclusive lore. The practical questions would of course be “were those pieces of the picture known at such and such time and place, are there any other supporting examples etc.” But the general paradigm should not be unnecessarily overcomplicated, I think.
As for calendar, again, your request for “evidence for a culture that used the sequence starting with Pisces” is perfectly reasonable. But, in fact, that’s the very question that I asked, or, rather, suggested to investigate 🙂 If there is no positive answer whatsoever to that question, then of course more complex possibilities should be investigated. But this is to go from simple to complex; while the way that you suggest is to begin all at once with something extremely complex, ignoring much simpler explanations.
Sorry for a bit messy comment, I tried to sum up my critique of your approach, not just to reply to your latest comment.
Anton,
In my view, the VMs is probably chronologically genuine. That is, created within a century or or two of the vellum dates. But ideologically it is somewhat disingenuous. It hides behind a veil. It is a sort of pseudo- artifact, created to look like it came from a culture as yet undiscovered, and certainly well able to do that in its time. But your Ockham’s razor has shaved the viable possibilities down to a virtual nothingness.
Is the VMs an artistic creation? Is it wholly visual and totally non-literary? I don’t have an answer for that. But if you are a VMs investigator, then meaning is where you find it. The definition of an illustration ‘is defined by the definer’, someone told me recently.
Even today when we see that VMs Aries and Taurus have been split, about all we can do is to ask, what does this mean? I am endeavoring of gather information and to ask of others as to whether the arrangement of the VMs Zodiac/calendar sequence staring with Pisces, in comparison with standard European sequences from the Medieval Era, is also a discrepancy of a similar magnitude. And to look at potential reasons why the VMs was created as it was.
These discrepancies certainly add to the desired ‘strangeness’ of the VMs, but, in my opinion, this is a complex construction intended to attract the investigator’s wandering attention and direct it in a particular direction. The examples of pairing in VMs Pisces through Cancer are numerous. Any examples of armorial heraldry are internally limited to Pisces and the two halves of Aries.
The initial examples of paired patterns of a general heraldic nature are clearly set forth, right from the beginning. But what then? More of the same? Apparently not. In a way it seems that the VMs, the author of the VMs, has arranged a series of tests that are progressively more difficult.
Right or wrong in its placement, Pisces sets forth an obvious pair. Aries and Taurus, seeming more like they have been rendered in two, nevertheless are split pairs. Take the same approach to heraldry. First level pairs are obvious. Second level pairs are split. Back on the outer circle of Pisces, considering the patterns of the tubs as potentially evocative of heraldic ordinaries, you will find another example of diagonal banding elsewhere. A pattern that is comparable to the heraldic design known as bendy. You won’t find another VMs example using chevrons. But if you continue to investigate almost all the way around, you will discover an interesting pattern that looks like the scales on a fish, and matches a second representation found on Dark Aries. This is a good one. It is a clear demonstration of how well the VMs author knows armorial heraldry. S/He knows heraldry quite well and can manipulate it as a sort of language – an unexpected language – steganographic heraldry.
And after that, the next level of difficulty is the discovery of disguised heraldry. In a pair, but, of course.
So, there’s a clever fellow who knows how to drop out right before things get dull and repetitive.
It seems to me that the unusual starting point and the artificial division of two months that is found in the VMs Zodiac is part of an intentional construction that provides various examples of pairing. Not one, not two, not three, not four, but five consecutive houses of of the Zodiac that are examples of pairing in the VMs illustrations.
Pairing is simple. It’s a child’s game. It’s rules are not complex, like chess. Astrological signs are a part of standard Medieval European culture and serve as a method of communication. And the search for pairs then shifts to heraldry which is another standard method of communication in Medieval European culture. The path of armorial heraldic pairing leads to the evocative recognition of the Genoese popes. And that potential recognition is given multiple confirmations: by ecclesiastical heraldry, by proper hierarchical placement, by most favored heraldic placement and by the papelonny pun. The complexity of this construction is a demonstration of the author’s capabilities. The investigation of pairing in the VMs Zodiac, when it is found and followed, presents a clear path to the specific historical identifications found on White Aries.
Out*of*the*Blue: right. But if, as you assert, this kind of pairing is such a meaningful game to the author, why does it constitute such a dwindlingly small proportion of a sizeable book? So small a proportion, in fact, that it’s almost indistinguishable from random chance?
There are perhaps a hundred systematic features that the Voynich Manuscript has which all seem to me to offer more obviously substantial ways into the author’s mind – the entirety of the zodiac pages (not just tiny details), the entirety of the (properly reordered and adjacent) planet pages, the drawings of buildings on the nine-rosette page, the whole set of folding pages, the balneological buildings, the astronomical pages, the oddly layered codicology of f57v, the unencrypted (yet unreadable) Savoyard-like handwriting on the back page, etc etc etc.
and let us not forget that Lynn Thorndike saw nothing in the manuscript which offers insight into medieval science or ‘pseudo-science’.
As it happens, I’ve never seen any reason to suppose anything in the Vms relates to the usual sort of astrological calculations – I say the ‘usual sort’ because there were many other types of calculation and prediction more accessible to the layman.
I’ve never thought the month-series anything other than a calendar of the ‘labours of the months’ type.
btw Anton: there’s nothing whatever distinctly German about those calendars. They are characteristic of western medieval Catholic (and later) ornament. Each of the constellations had its religious moralisation and so forth, but you see them everywhere, from the late classical period onwards. The earliest are often preserved in more enduring media such as mosaic or other architectural decoration. I find it interesting that those I cited began in January, associated with the constellation of Aquarius. The liturgical year (which was the ordinary calendar too) began from Easter, in March/April. Or so I had believed. I must look into this again.
readers may be interested in the calendar from the Codex Gigas since it relates to medieval Bohemia.
See ‘Necrology’ page from it, discussed on a website of the National Library of Sweden
http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/texter/calender/Necrology/
Hello Nick,
Well, it is precisely because it is meaningful that it is hidden away. It is like a rare spice that is saved for a special occasion. I am not suggesting that I know the author’s purpose in creating the whole of the VMs, or that I am as familiar as you are with the wide variety of topics you listed. I’m just a one trick pony, well, it’s two now that I’ve gone from heraldry to pairing, which is a bit off in the wrong direction. But that is how the current flows.
Pairing in the first five signs of the strange VMs may seem small to you, how did you measure it? Granted that things are made to seem of no particular significance, but they certainly are not random. There are clearly a number of elements that are involved in an intricate construction far too complex to be random. The placement of the papelonny patterns in the respective spheres and the same quadrant as the blue-striped patterns of White Aries is just a single example of how the elements of the construction function together. And at the same time papelonny is an indication of the way in which ignorance can blind any investigator, and yet how blatant the pun can be for those who possess the definition of what the these illustrations clearly contain.
Pairing is significant because it ties together two standard methods of communication from medieval European culture that can function without language. Astrology leads to heraldry. And heraldry produces a particular, valid historical identification in the VMs, previously (and presently to some extent) unrecognized.
As to the ‘hundred systematic features’ there seems to be a certain problematic quality in their lack of interconnection. Most everything seems to point in a separate direction. The investigation of pairing is like following a trail of clues in a scavenger hunt. Even the methodology has a pattern. The first example, Pisces, has obvious pairing. Both members of the set are in the same location. Other examples of the first level may exist.
Examples of the second level are separated. They are not found together in the same location, but they still exist in the text. The reader must find the paired examples in their locations.
The third level is more difficult. Finding the meta-pairings in the Zodiac.The discovery of hidden history in the the hidden heraldry. Seeing that the radial orientation of the blue stripes of White Aries is not the only possible interpretation of the data presented is the biggest single step (assuming historical recognition plays a role). The initial combination of armorial heraldry, ecclesiastical heraldry and proper hierarchical positioning of the two figures pretty much seals the deal as to who is who, but a number of other factors found in the VMs zodiac illustrations support that conclusion. I sent you the list.
And as it is the historical interpretation of the data which has been hidden by an optical illusion, it is the author’s decision to employ a bit of disguise and obfuscation. There is a hidden purpose in the text. There is a specific bit of heraldry hidden in the VMs with its ultimate purpose yet to be determined.
Out*of*the*Blue: I find understanding the Voynich on tangible levels a hard enough challenge, without touching on “meta-pairings” etc. 😐
OOTB
I have to say that I noticed something akin to ‘pairing’ in the way the month-names were written, as well as the ‘wild-and-tame’ references throughout: not just the creatures pictured for the months, but something of the same in the botanical section.
What it might mean is open to opinion.
Diane:
As I noted above, I’m sure that the phenomenon of these “folk calendars” is common for many peoples of the world. (I’m not a specialist in the subject, but common logic suggests this.). I mentioned the “Volkskalender” just because at the time of that discussion above I happened to have a look at the old article by F.B. Brevart which specifically considers a German “Volkskalender”.
The link is rejected (if anyone is interested), but you’ll find it by googling for “Brevart” and “Volkskalender”.
Anton,
Oh yes, I see what you mean – the “common man’s” calendar, or Shepherd’s calendar as the type is known in English. They seem to have been an effort to make up for the loss of the old ‘Book of Hours’, but were part almanac too.
The English gained theirs via the French.
The following is a quote:
Compost et kalendrier des bergers … The Calendrier was translated into Scots English by Alexander Barclay (The Kalendayr of the shyppars, published by Antoine Vrard in 1503); an English version was produced in 1506.
It’s fascinating to see the sort of things that a ‘shepherd’ was likely to know, or want to know.
Nick and Diane,
‘Meta-pairing’ may be the wrong term, though it seemed good at the time. What I mean is that there are pairs, and then there are pairs of similar pairs. Aries is a month in two parts and so is Taurus, therefore a pair of similar pairs and so on. The only real challenge is when the VMs author makes use of references with which the reader is not familiar. A prime example of this is papelonny. How many times have investigators passed over these illustrations without knowing what they were and that they were even there. In some significant part, this is obviously due to the fact that papelonny and plumetty are often omitted from the various heraldry reference sources. But that assumes the investigator is even looking at heraldic references.
There may be further examples of pairing as Diane suggests. As far as meaning, my view is that the numerous examples of pairing are there to repeatedly demonstrate and pound home the concept of pairing until it finally dawns on the reader that these examples are intended to establish a heuristic based on pairing. [Webster’s definition of heuristic is a method of education in which the pupil is trained to find things out for himself/herself.] Following the search for pairings in the first five signs of the VMs Zodiac leads from astrological pairings to heraldic pairings. And again I will offer the caveat that the author may be using historical, heraldic references with which the modern reader may not initially be familiar. And again, these are not a hundred unrelated items scattered across the whole of the VMs. Rather there is a complex of interacting elements present in a limited and defined location, the focus of which is the discovery of the all too obvious (and therefore minimized and slightly obfuscated) representations of the paired armorial insignia of the Fieschi popes in combination with the various, associated confirmations. What is in the text is clear enough. The problem occurs when the author takes standard medieval symbols, with which we are not familiar, and uses them to make a pun, which we cannot comprehend until we attain the same level of heraldic and historical knowledge.
I might mention that the medieval sailing season started in March/April.
People interested in that sort of thing might enjoy
Rosamond Joscelyne Mitchell, The spring voyage: The Jerusalem pilgrimage in 1458.
It was published way back in 1964, but such a solid bit of research that you can still get it.