As mentioned in a fair bit of Australia’s press, the exhumation of the Somerton Man has begun in West Terrace in the last 24 hours, with all the normal shots of PPE, tents, and mini-diggers accompanying the reports.
Once the FSSA have processed the body (in whatever parlous state it’s in) and extracted the man’s full DNA profile, the forensic investigation will doubtless continue spinning along for several weeks (e.g. carrying out physical analyses to determine the cause of his death), while the genealogists kick into the kind of high-octane action you’d expect. (I confidently predict “Tamam Shud: The Movie” will cast Vin Diesel as one of the genealogy team, you heard it here first.)
Then, with his identity established (hopefully), the properly fun part will begin: working out what was going on in November 1948, and fitting this with the pieces of the puzzle we know already into a full historical reconstruction.
Of course, the ultimate Cipher Mysteries prize in this whole endeavour would be a decryption of the mysterious note found imprinted on the back of the W&T Rubaiyat that was (believed to be) linked to the dead man. My suspicion, however, is that even knowing everything there is to know about the Somerton Man may still not make this possible.
Still, it’s clear that interesting times are now upon us, particularly for those people who have been promoting nutty Somerton Man theories for so many years. Perhaps we will even see some of them ‘upgrade’ their theories into denialist body-swap theories, i.e. “it’s the right DNA but the wrong body”. Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition…
Once more into the rabbit hole dear friends once more.
Speaking of promoting nutty theories … I’m sincerely hoping your hot car / Prosper Thomson / Taman Shud \ Rubaiyat / Chemist Freeman / Hillman Minx / baccarat gangs recognition method etc etc stands the test NickP. Quite a masterful exercise putting all that together
Peteb: I think it will be interesting to see how close to (or indeed how wildly distant from) the truth all our ideas were.
What will be the single key thing we missed the importance of? The three H pencils? The Wrigleys Juicy Fruit? The Pruszinskis of Broken Hill? The off-white tie? The shiv? The women’s hair grip (which is actually pretty handy for lock-picking, now you ask)? The black powder? The baccarat school story? The Rubaiyat itself? Or perhaps all of the above, or perhaps none?
Let’s hope SM’s accessible history turns out to have at least some of the answers.
Perhaps it’s not so much what we missed that was of importance, but what did we see that wasn’t relevant. I’ve always felt part of the difficulty with SM is that there’s too many “clues” rather than too few. For each story anyone has come up with, there always seems to be something we have to ignore – and yet anything we choose to ignore seems to be too significant to ignore.
I’m sort of excited that there might be some answers (although I’m sure there’s people out there who will cry conspiracy if it wraps up neater than they want) – but I have a feeling that while there might be some answers as to who he was (or at least who he was related to) they might not help answer how he ended up on Somerton Beach.
NB: As I’m sure all you following in the press are aware, complete remains have been recovered in “as good a condition as you would expect” and experts are “hopeful of getting good DNA sample” – but a few concerns that embalming process often aids deterioration of DNA. (in case you can’t tell, that sort of science ain’t my thing)
The likelihood of there being three sets of remains to sort through is surely going to take some doing to sort which bone belongs to which ‘skelington’ before any determined effort at profiling and pathology can proceed. With regard to the latter, some knowledge on details regarding the earlier burials ie., ages and dates of interrment would be helpful including cause of death etc. I note that senior plod Des Bray made a most interesting point in the post dig briefing gig to the effect that SM might have been an American sailor and that there were Adelaidans who thought they could be related to Mr. Somerton. Might we now have pro bono lawyers claiming to represent the pair of disturbed cryptmates in damages against the Attorny General of S.A. through lawful plaint. This arrising from infringements incumbent upon their deceased client’s rights to eternal rest as guaranteed by the Great Charter Rm. 1215?… You betcha we can.
Just between you and me, NickP, I’d be having a look at the hundred or so German rocket scientists who were spirited out of Europe at the end of WW2 by the British and were kindly accommodated in South Australia in about 1947 in order to assist in building missiles similar to the feared V2.
You know it makes sense.
Peteb: Might you per chance have been referring to the same talking head Det. Spt. Bray who, not so long ago took his plod squad and a million bucks worth of earthmoving gear over to long gone Satin Man’s old Castaloy factory. Acting on unreliable information provided by known mischief makers including your old pal Xlamb, with a view to causing unecessary consternation to many aging citizen still puzzling over the whereabiuts of three kiddies abducted? all those years ago. Hope he has better luck with Somerton Man, poor bastard could do with a break prior to his imminent retirement after forty years of somewhat mixed bag policing….Len Brown achieved the same rank after his career of mostly desk work whilst poor Lionel Leane and Gerry Feltus, a humble but cunning pair of bad ass street suits, could only manage Det. Sgt. Between them after the same length of service. So what could possibly have gone wrong with their apparently unblemished police careers, so as to end up so many rungs from top of the ladder.
Seems awfully like the embalming process touted to be similar to methods used on the Ramses Kings of Ancient Egypt, wasn’t quite up to par in our uplifted mate’s case. From what we are led to believe only a mixed bag of nuts and bolts were in the excavated grave plus a preserved mortuary toe tag sans toe, which is great for proof of connection with the bare bones and continuity of association from 1949. Obviously hair comparisons with those doubtful few from the bust will prove to be yet another bust but no loss imo. Likewise the hoped for mumified skin samples that proved essential to tracing Nefertiti’s family line, will need to be obtained from whatever few teeth samples still hold DNA. I wonder which we might expect to get soonest the high fives for we’re getting good results or the thumbs down representing a right off. Dare I mention which one my cool six hundred’s riding on.
I reckon the odds are about 133 to one. An outsider’s chance but we’ve won an earlier race on the same galloper.
The most fitting end to this mystery would be to find the body wasn’t there anymore.
Simon: Loose lips sink ships. Very convenient find indeed was the still legible toe tag which might normally be retained for records upon the body’s release to the undertaker for burial preparation. Perhaps at Cleland’s suggestion it was placed in the coffin to validate a form of ID should there be need for exhumation, as indeed it was the case 73 years on. Who knows?
Which isotope radioactivity may provide a radiated death theory !! LOL …. 🙂 Enjoy even the plausible outside the box extrapolations !! Thanks nickpelling for keeping the site going !!
Nick,
Doesn’t DNA identification require some close family member’s DNA to have been taken and on record for any match to be made?
The generic sort of profiling might, perhaps, indicate that his ancestry is likely central European or something, but otherwise isn’t it a bit hit-and-miss as to whether they’ll get any useful result?
I’m wondering if there might be need for an anthropologist to give opinion if DNA forensics are found inconclusive or worse still, unobtainable. It’s well known that one of the Flores Hobbit Professors Maciej Henneberg of S.A. University has had vast experience in the identification and likely origins of decayed and decomposed skeletal matter of Homo genus. Mike’s involvement here could be redemption of sorts for his unfortunate coerced ID with Peteb’s Xlamb and the celebrated H.C. Reynolds seaman’s card.
It seems that the forensics will take quite a long time:
“But Professor Abbott said that the process of identification from DNA typically took months, if not years — presuming it was possible at all.
“Assuming DNA gets extracted from his remains, the most likely way of identifying him when you don’t have a specific person to match him up against … is to do what’s successfully done in America, and is also what adopted children do to find their birth parents,” he told ABC Radio National. “That is to compare the DNA with DNA on genealogical websites like 23andMe and ancestry.com.
If you can find his distant cousins — wherever they are in the world — and from their family trees, triangulate them and find a part on the tree that has somebody missing in 1948, then that becomes a key person of interest for them to follow up.”
Now that a most unanticipated chance discovery of a bio degradable cardboard identification mortuary toe tag has been made, I guess it should be also subjected to spectro analysis for dating. Thats only fair and chances are they can tell for sure if it correlates to time of burial and if there be any indication that it was a post 1949 plant. Very easy accomplished indeed, the plant that is, not so the scientific process of analysis which is understood to be on tge pricey side.
Thomas: DNA matching can take from a day all the way up to pretty much never, it just depends on what there is in the database.
If the Somerton Man has some kind of connection with America, the likelihood of a swifter outcome is increased, because so many Americans have uploaded their DNA etc relative to other nations.
All the same, the outcome is essentially unknowable in advance, though I would expect there to be an announcement if/when they have identified various distant cousins etc.
John Sanders: if the tag said “Unknown Man”, I think the level of doubt would be basically zero.
Take a five foot length of 1″ water pipe and using a four pound hammer bang it through the upper grave crust to depth of say 4′ 6″. Remove it and knock out the residual sod build up. Insert a half inch 5′ wooden dowell around which your fake toe tag has been wrapped six inches from the bottom end. Next take a short piece of lamb shank bone or similar neat fitting innocuous material to end stop to the pipe which is then reinserted into the hole along with the almost neat fitting dowel. Penultimate step is to gently bang the protruding shaft home level with the pipe top end to seat the tag. Then with a firm pull remove the two tell tale pieces minus the tag which miraculously remains undergound at body depth. At the appropriate time it’ll be found resting innocently amongst the skeletal remains of long dead Somerton Man. Any questions?
John Sanders: is this some kind of shaggy dog story involving the phrase “toe rag”?
Nick Pelling: If the toe tag says Kean then game’s on and CM is on the right course. Or if the writing be consistant with T. Keane on the white tie, better still the code page overwriting, we’re back in the game and the joint Cramer/Peteb espionage contention is the lost cause it has always been.
John Sanders: you might just be flogging a dead horse here.
Nick Pelling: Dead horse indeed, indeed. Something the likes of 1917 Kentucky Derby winner Omar Khayyam, English bred of course and who’s grand sire was Marco same as the tag on SM’s spare pair of duds.
Doubting Thomas punters, those who follow the tit for tat game rules in play and hoping for a sanders gotcha moment, will by now have had their hopes dashed. Of course there was a horse of that name, one of several actually and this one did win the biggest race of all according to the Yanks. Punters with an inquiring mind still hoping for leads should also have by now checked the Omar Khayyam connections namely Charlie the Jockey boy to see if he fits any of the bigger game initiatives. I can save you the trouble; he was a 35 year old US immigrant of Swiss origins who settled in California, married, had six children and sadly passed away in 1960 from natural causes. Two of his sons Charles Jr. and Martin have been put through the hoops and so far are found wanting in respect of known SM traits but, not being selflish like many, I’ve left a little meat on the fetlocks for others to pick over.
A trending thread on a site known for it’s not factual notions on issues totally unconnected to the Somerton brief, relates to claims of former nazi scientists having been secretly recruited by Brits post war to assist with their Australian based rocketry experiments. The assertion may well have some basis though if that is true I’d suspect it be at a minimal level of overall participation and that those involved were thoroughly vetted….All an aside, I guess more than a few Aussie regional news hound types would be aware of a recent spate of wanton and cowardly vendetta attacks made against targeted elderly Sunshine Coast residents of German background. Police at operational level are onto a suspect group who apparently use sophisticed software to enable regular output of their anti German propaganda material for unauthored discreet distribution. Detectives on the case who say they have not formerly identified the ringleaders are now renewing efforts to get public spirited informants to come forward, an urgency based on unusual disappearance of two elderly German tourists from their isolated hinterlands hut. One might wonder if those posters gullible enough to play the ‘follow my leader’ game with a nutter well known for his manic detestation of all things Germanic, might like to re think on the possible implications and or ramifications of their folly.
Noted with some degree of bafflement and incumbent diubt that, Superintendent Des Bray, OIC Somerton Beach death case, was able at a graveside interview to confirm conclusively thus, (my words) “Upon arrival at Adelaide Station and after depositing his suitcase at the left baggage room, he (SM) then took a train down to the bay …..”. Looks like we can put aside all the nonsense about unpunched tickets, take your pick bus routes and the like for they’re now in the evidentiary hearsay basket. Not so the Cornish pasty of course because our dapper senior Detective spoke of it’s consumption (not digestion) with a lick of the lips and a wry smile. As much to show the TV audience that whilst he was ever respectful of those long gone, he could nonetheless still make light of a man’s last supper.
Just between you and me, Dusty, and not a word to anyone else mind .. I do believe old Dome’s bucket of loathsome frogs has just undergone a metamorphosis and now looks like a bucket of highly attractive worms.
According to the Melbourne Argus 15/6/49…’The body which has been embalmed in a manner similar to that employed by the Egyptians 2000 years ago, is expected to stay preserved for many years should it be necessary to exhume it’….All fine and dandy for those ancient Egyptians fortunate enough to be awaiting rebirth in Luxor or Valley of the Kings which are in all likelihood to remain as dry as a bone until the end of time. Not so West Terrace cemetery Adelaide S.A. which being located in the lowest part of town and since time imemorial subject to frequent flash flooding and inundation from River Torrens which flows through the city close by. I don’t care what 11 herbs an fancy spices the morticians may have rubbed into our man or if myrrh impregnated muslin was used to shroud him in, nor means used to effect surface run off from the burial sight over the years; nothing was going to make him look like Nefertiti upon his unsolicited resurrection. Only thing that hadn’t decomposed from what we are led to believe was a handy cardboard mortuary tag and penned legible detail to prove all correct proceedures were followed to the letter from the date of interrment to the present. Well done Safcol.
A well written article mit West Terrace exhumation pics in yesterday’s New York Times by Alan Uhas. Rather surprising and uplifting of course..apart from Derek Abbott’s input re the SM theory of relativety.
You refering to those little tweety things that the boss likes so much. I’ve had them directed at me before but never sure whether they’re barbs or attempts at wry humour. They don’t effect me one way or the other, I just go with whatever’s trending you Peteb know me well enough. Speaking of which, If I had a natural aversion to coming under official police notice, I might think it wise to approach Adelaide News who put out the search for ROK story on Friday 21/7/49. This to test the water and ensure discretion more likely after handing over the book to police. Needless to say I’m more inclined to accept that the Freeman gig, if it happened (which I doubt) would be part of a ‘you scratch my back’ pact berween Lional and the family forged years earlier.
The investigation is on the bones of its arse, Johnno …… and once again the Bollinger is on you.
My budget never went beyond Porphry Pearl or Cold Duck at a pinch. More than good enough for us lads from Grabby so long’s it was out of an esky and you could get a bit of fluff to share it with. Bollinger is frog right?
@JS consult google maps. River Torrens not really close to the cemetery – While the path of the river may have changed slightly (by human interaction) that would have been a LONG time before 1948 (and not significantly). Fun fact, when you sit on the hill at Adelaide oval, you’re sitting on the bottom of the Torrens.
While the cemetery *might* be lower than parts of the city, if it is, it would be with the land lowering toward South Tce (that is, the river would have to come uphill toward North Tce, past Grote St and then downhill toward South Tce to inundate the cemetery).
I say *might* because there’s no noticeable change in height throughout the city – once you’re outside of the city – North of North Tce, where there’s a pretty big descent to the banks of the Torrens before the rise on the other side to Montefiore Hill (and Light’s Vision). Get on Google Maps, and have a look at King William Rd North of North Tce, or check out the Morphett St bridge and how high that is over the Torrens compared to the rail yards (oops, the railyards have moved, but you can see the switching coming out of the city on the West side of the bridge). Perhaps the view from the Morphett St bridge over the torrens is the best view, you can see how much the banks descend from the Convention Centre (or even the Riverside; Adelaide; Norwood/Morialta & Unley; Pembroke rowing sheds) – or perhaps looking West toward the Weir you can see the height even more obviously. When the river floods, it’s downstream from the weir (which is even lower than the river is near the city). I remember decorations at the West End brewery floating away (and some clever marketing by Coopers at the time) – but that’s at an elevation significantly below and a good distance from the city.
I would be INCREDIBLY surprised if the River Torrens has ever swelled to a size where it would reach North Tce, let alone inundate the cemetry.
I’m not willing to say that the cemetery has never flooded, but it ain’t from the River Torrens.
One of the recent news articles has a picture of Cleland’s notes (which I’m sure have been dug through before). They’re a bit blurry (and I’m not the best at interpreting handwriting), but it has a note in it (that appears to be dated 5/5/70, but I’m assuming that’s not right):
mutilated Copy of Omar K found thrown into the back of a utility truck in Glenelg? – Not all copies of Omar K contain the ending(?) “Tammam Shude” (sic)
I assume “utility truck” is what we call a “ute” – normally a 2 seat (not sure the concept of “dual cab” would’ve existed back then) car with a tray/cargo bay at the back.
milongal: Don’t take my word for the Torrens run off and flooding of West Terrace. Plenty on line to verify it which is fine because I never went there in wet weather myself. As for Cleland’s notes, I never had trouble reading them even wuth my old eyes and I’ve mentioned the utility truck ROK piece on more than one occasion, even a week or three ago from memory.
Yeap, just noticed at least 2 mentions you’ve made on the ute in recent times (28 Jan this year and 20 July last year).
Prosper was looking for a ute at one stage too – but given that was March 1947 that’s probably a bit of a stretch to link in.
Peteb: Profs. Sorren Blau and Anne Coxon, the appointed forensic examiners, do not sound as upbeat about there beng testable DNA matter as is Derek’s similarly credentialed Colleen Fitzpatrick. Surely some post uplift examination of the graven remains could be expected fairly soonest, considering that News Corp now has it’s backing bid in place for a preview briefing.
The milk has already been spilt, Rachel has the purple genome.
Heard tell of purple rain, deep purple and purple patch but, afraid your purple genometry’s got the best of me Peteb. If you could mop the spilt milk equasion that’d set me straight mate.
One chance for a country of origin would be from the filling in the left side first pre molar maxillary biscuspid which from Dwyer’s tooth card is the only non single left in SM’s jaw.
john sanders: thanks, that’s just about the only sensible non-DNA suggestion I’ve heard so far re the Somerton Man’s body.
SAPOL has exhumed SM and apparently intend to recover his DNA and presumably do other forensic testing. There are various tests and examinations of SM’s remains that I think are warranted.
1) We know that the previous hair GC-MS analysis showed anomalously high levels of lead and other elements. This work should be repeated, particularly with respect to barium, which was not previously tested for. There were deaths due to accidental barium poisoning in South Australia soon after SM’s death. It is probably just bizarre coincidence but the company associated with these accidental deaths, Bickfords, were the original owners of the Crippled Children’s Hospital just across the road from where SM was found. The Bickford family were still associated with the hospital at the time of SM’s death from memory. Many of SM’s internal organs would have been removed during the autopsy and it is unlikely that any of these were replaced in his corpse before SM was embalmed and it seems that no body tissues have survived. But the soil on SM’s skeletal remains should be tested for inorganic poisons such as barium and lead.
2) Simple plain X-rays of SM’s bones could detect lead lines due to lead exposure.
3) Autosomal DNA analysis could pick up any SNP variants (mutations) in SM’s DNA that could suggest or prove that SM had a connective tissue disease, as I suspect. It is possible that relatively well preserved samples of collagen could still be recovered from SM’s remains and these could be tested by X-ray synchrotron analysis for structural defects caused by DNA mutations. This is relevant because heart block and sudden death can occur in some variants of connective tissue disease.
4) X-ray synchrotron analysis (there is such a facility in Melbourne) could establish if SM’s hair carries defects such as are associated with Woolly Hair syndrome. This syndrome was suggested by previous DNA analysis of SM’s hair by DA’s team.
5) It was stated by a former SAPOL detective about 2002 (in the Weekend Australian story and the related discussion) that SM’s teeth showed characteristic signs of Eastern European dentistry.
I’m thinking that Capt. E. J. Webb the Salvation Army officer, who officiated at the ’49 funeral, said in similar, though more sinctinctly, what Jo Thomson may have been on about. Namely that the deceased was not so much an unknown man at all, for he was known to God. We the rightous few can hardly take umbridge with such profundity now can we, so God bless the Salvos for mine and I mean that in all sincerity misca.
Also, it would be worth checking SMs teeth and jaw for signs of peridontal disease, and particularly gingival hyperplasia that often occurs with connective tissue disease.
JS,
I briefly mentioned somewhere, quite a while ago now, that in 2001 I contacted somebody in SAPOL who had asked for information regarding the SM case. This request from SAPOL was made in the letters to the editor following Janet Fife-Yeomans article “The Man With No Name”, The Weekend Australian Magazine, 15–16 September 2001, p 30. I can’t remember the SAPOL chap’s name now but it could be found by checking the follow up to this article. I checked in the catalogue of the Australian National Library and found four (I am pretty sure it was four) files dealing with the SM case. Two were SAPOL files and I informed SAPOL of this. These files then disappeared from the NLA catalogue.
The presence of SAPOL files in the NLA collection is one of the reasons why I have always suspected the involvement of the intelligence services in the SM case. There are other reasons as well that reinforce my view. And the presence of the Norwegian passport in the Australian Archive collection is one of the reasons why I think Charles Mikkelsen is still in the frame.
BD: Have a feeling your man may have been been Ian MacDougall (sic), a high ranking Fed from the Adelaide office who was into cold case stuff at a personal level. I think he actually made a couple of surrepticious comments here to let me know that he was still on the job; one about pasties with sauce which can be found on the Glenelg 1948 thread from memory. Ian and I were incorrigable ex Vietnam grunts and we paired up rather well (too well), working behind the lines of proper communication out of a SIB/Compol hidey hole during the mid seventies. Oh what we didn’t get up to.
Talk on other sites relates mainly of the delay in reporting DNA test results, or something of the broader forensic examination being undertaken by Blau/Coxon for Sapol’s cold case master of no surprises Des Bray. People don’t like being kept waiting, your average punter not appreciating what such a job entails if carried out fastidiously enough to satisfy the fussy Murdoch Press. For instance I could see both the British Museum and possibly the Antiquities experts in Egypt being called upon to assist due to their combined expertise in ancient mumified remains. A long tale doing the rounds is, that an observant and well briefed young officer assigned to search the sod as it was extracted, actually thought he’d found SM’s mumified foreskin amongst the sludge which, of itself would prove that he was not Mahomedan or Jewish. Turns out that the weathered object was nothing more than a mortuary leatherite toe tag of about the same specs which, being of no use to the investigation, he deftly tossed back into the grave.
There doesn’t seem to be much doubt that London credentialled undertaker Laurie Elliott’s high hopes for his long recognised mummy embalming technique for body preservation turns out to have been just a tad opptimistic. Folks who watched Nine’s coverage of the remains being exhumed in bits and pieces from the top level grave pit at West Terrace Cemetery two of long months ago might be in agreement. I feel for some like our dear Bumpkin who had hopes that the long anticipated uplift might bring with it real chance of successful closure. Alas no resolution has been forthcoming to date and quite frankly we might now feel somewhat less confident that such will occur in the immediate future if ever. Perhaps the recovered mortuary toe tag which I’ve alluded to will at least show a degree of trust in old Det. Scan Sutherland’s last duty to confirm ligitimacy of the Unknown Man’s interrment according to due process.
Things aren’t looking great for any pathology or DNA results going public any time soon, if at all. I’d guess that it’s quite conceivable even likely, that all recently developed forensic material of significance would be directed to the S.A. Coroner
for consideration. This being mindful that both previous inquests (1948/58) resulted in sin die inconclusive outcomes which by true legal definition would be deemed adjournments and subject to re-convening if appropriate.
If I’m not mistaken tomorrow is Paul Lawson’s 103rd birthday and little doubt Gordon Cramer will have a special biographical number to mark the event, so I’ll just spoil the fun by being first with celebratory congrats. Gordon’s usual Sunday treat is interesting in that, whilst it doesn’t give us any eagerly awaited SM new misdirections, it does have a couple of quick read yarns vis., successful deception ploys through the ages, from the Toron [sic] horse of Troy (nice period pic. Inc.) through to MI5 stunts pulled on the Krauts and post war Ruskies…Off course we all know from Peter Wright’s Spy Catcher that Guy Liddell was Roger Hollis’ boss in SM’s day, not the other way around GC., Guy being Dep. Director under Stillitoe and Roger holding down the Soviet Desk, but in effect no higher ranking than Elli, the office tea lady…I wasn’t aware that Liddell came to Oz for his ’48 Xmas hols. either GC. Well spotted that man!
Well, been away for a little while on urgent government business in the Pampas, but I see that all is same-but-worse down Somerton way.
GC’s TS-but-mainly-BS site is apparently closed to uninvited guests, while everyone’s favourite surfin’ bird Pete(r) B. is rehashing old tunes that barely troubled the Top 40 even back in the day.
And of course Sanders continues to spam this channel with an endless stream of barely-consciousness.
I gather, then, that not much is happening? No reds under the bed? The walls not got new ears?
They’ve dug the old vaquero up, I hear. What will we all do when our little cottage industry disappears?
Tamara Bunke: I’m basically treading water while FSSA attempts to science up the bag of formaldehyded bones into the outlines of something useful (though I do have one other interesting Somerton Man post yet to land). I don’t really know what triggered Pete just now, but some kind of fight-or-flight thing seems to have taken control of his blogging muscles. And… Gordon who?
As to what will happen once we know who the poor bugger is, I think that it’s a relatively safe bet that GC will say (a) the identification is obviously wrong, and (b) even if it is right, the person obviously had a secret life as a spy (and here’s the microwriting message to prove it). I also suspect that Pete will delete all his posts and start again from scratch, like he has a few times already, but you probably already guessed that.
@bunkum: Sad to hear that you’re no longer invited to fly your red banner on @goodonyougordon’s most authoritive site, same same at Tbt if I’m not mistaken. I still have ways and means to peak under the curtains so to speak, as are all us barely-conciouness [sick] sneaky spamsters; so I’ll endeavour to report on any SM news is it happens …about as rare as a hail storm on the pampas. Vive la Rev.
Someone over at PB’s site asks whether it could be KANE not KEAN that was on the items of clothing that we didn’t see. Presumably the thought is that someone mildly dyslexic recorded the wrong name. TBH I’ve thought similar before, but the KEANE on the tie has cut that thought short for me in the past.
Of course, I have previously speculated that the writing on the tie (and other items) is NOT from the tie’s owner. So perhaps either through accent or some far fetched idea of “What’s your name?” “KANE with an E” getting confused into KEANE, so maybe we’ll let the game play for a second….
According to S&M there happens to be an “A KANE” in St Leonards. If A was Anthony = Tony then perhaps there’s a T Kane.
I wonder whether this is the sort of speculation that leads to the question about KANE.
Of course, the problem with all of this is that KANE is still at the St Leonard address well into the ’50s so we’d probably have too many straws to clutch to entertain that idea seriously.
NB: regarding BS on TS being subscriber only – might help get some idea of the identities reading the site (or even not reading the site). If the site is trying to verify permissions, it presumably tries to check for a currently logged in blogspot account – or blogspot being a google thing, perhaps a logged in google account. Log this information and you start to get a little hint of all the “anonymous” that have posted on your site.
Or perhaps people prefer echo chambers endorsing their ideas rather than any critical thought that might raise some question around “facts” that they’ve doubled down on – but perhaps facebook would be a more apt platform than blogspot if you’re looking for echo chambers.
milongal: might just be paranoid control freakery, can’t rule that out easily. :-/
We might be mindful that sock puppets and paranoid control freaks ie., CGC only feel secure in their own company, with some select brown nosing suckholes kept on to keep the ‘visitation’ stats on the up. In which case the odd non factual faux pas becomes mute; chances of mass discord from fawning allies the likes of sullen misca-rage, Clive Turner/Walker/Lawson, Bonzo Bowes or Devious Deveson being ‘buckleys’. Realities such as soviet inspired spiked potato pasties, ex Tatura nazi hit squads, Clifton Gardens/RNSH allied ship counter club meets, confirmed verse 70 Jestyn/Moulds signature or theFedosimov/SM spitting image likeness could be difficult times ahead for any dissenter.
There you go Bonzo, why not take a leaf from Cramer’s new ROK and go private. As a proven loyal lackie (HMV) to your mentor master, you’d be entitled to bang elbows with a host of masked-up and covid free spifi genre deviants from the old soviet bloc You could with some caniving make the top five (No 5) in the coveted SM rankings, especially with those covert cunning linguist skills, if you get my drift. A word to the wise would be not to trust ‘An Omnibus’, GC’s lately straying foil as to do so might put you under one.
Gawd help us, in that Peteb’s openly accused charlatan pal GC is back in from a self imposed exile after a day in the cold. Puts one in mind of his selfless and most creditable voluntary isolation stunt of similar duration back in the early days of our current woes when the Covid 19 pandemic was referred to less alarmingly as that weird new Corona bug tha’s do’n the rounds.
@Sanders … and he rehashes our compay Angliski Boris’ old argument about Operacion Mincemeat, too.
Pete will be pleased that he finally got a first over the curmudgeonly old copper. Unless of course he deleted those posts in one of his furias.
Hasta la victoria!
Tamara: Curmudgeonly old wannabe would be more apt, as we shall learn directly. In my experience ‘goodonyougordon’ has so much confidence in his deceptions that deleting posts that only his cronies are likey to read would be rather pointless. As opposed to his hand tutored lackie at Tbt who is the master of deletions, furias disposicion o no, comprender no?
It seems that the plight of poor Fred has ceased to be of major concern as it had been just a few short months ago followin his internationally celebrated uplifting and renewed enthusiasm for at last having the manner and means with which to determine who he was and what caused his unexplained sudden death. Well so much for all that, now that those manner and means possibllities are likely to be shelved through, not only lack of interest, but a drastic shortfall of funds with which to facilitate the process of realistic forensic determination. With many of those initially involved with the DNA and pathology tests now almost certainly laid off or on full lock down through state government Covid control initiatives, there’s little chance of resumption any time soon imo. My informant, a rather highly qualified uni if NSW invirologist with China experience and a solid background in all Corona type viruses going back to before 2000, is a prolific attempted adviser (pro bono) to a bevy of so called governMENTAL authorities on all facets of Covud infection, isolation methods, vaccinatiin and like contols whose experience is apparently not required in the current dire circumstances..so fuck you very much Dr. DS….If any SM punter happens to be in need of fine southern Indian nosh home delivered anywhere in East Sydney, I have his details..just happens to be a very close revelation.
Fiona Ellis-jones and her ‘Beyond the Grave’ part 2 might be a make or break event for her own credability. It will depend on whether she has the audacity to put forward the previewed lower jaw set as having been part of the exhumed remains under current forensic examination and which are claimed to be those from the Unknown Man’s grave. It’s quite apparent that lower molars on either side are not at all consistent with pathologist Dwyer’s detailed layout presented to the coroner at the inquest and which he had compiled insitu at West Terrace mortuary on a spare toe tag the day of his post mortem. Shall someone be kind enough to tell her before show time or should we let her do her stuff and face any consequences?.
JS, or maybe the exhumed remains do not belong to the body that Dwyer examined?
Wondering if GC (better late than never) stills on the promo were able to ID the long bone depicted in the quick pass preceeding the similarly brief jaw dropper. A visible fracture also suggests it came from a donor other than SM and one might wonder if it could have been one of the earlier graven occupants. Of course it might have been busted by Det. Bray’s careless police back hoe operater on the day, so if Gordon could assist with close examination of the fracture still to get a better assessment, his late arrival on the scene might thus be excused.
Good news for Fiona, she’s in the clear. Something had afterall jogged my memory with that set of familiar bodgie chompers. Lo & behold, turns out the pre view skit for ‘Beyond the Grave’ part two (same lower jaw) was taken from another pre exhumation SM doco, ‘Dancing with the Dead’. Glad that late on the scene Gordon didn’t jump to the usual presumptive conclusions, as is his wont.
I’m hoping they buried him in the duds he was wearing on the day … if you know what I mean.
BD: An interesting point that Doc Dwyer made at the inquest was that a close inspection of the deceased oral cavity revealed no evidence of denture wearing. (recent or past). Suggests to me that SM may well have been a bushie as Len Brown suggested, itinerant and likely short of a quid too; this as opposed to the shady middle aged interstate auto dealer or, as some insist, a spy come in from the cold and got wacked for his disloyalty. I can’t really see any man with those credentials wearing darned socks to town and having no spares in his travel kit.
Peteb: not unless he had another pair of undocumented Staminas. Most will recall the original pair that Len Brown pulled from the suitcase with some relish to show Stuart Littlemore in ’78. Comes to mind the listed striped pajames from the Keane suitcase were never shown, perhaps undertaker Elliott thought them to be more appropriate for the private funeral.
Back to Dr. Dwyers dilligence in thinking to chart the dead man’s dentistry, no doubt being quite aware from experience that giving his subject a name might be difficult. Whether he examined the individual teeth for signs of past repair, we’re not to know though I’d say he was likely to have and found nothing to report. Forensic odontology had been successfully used as a tool for the purpose of identification, when other means had failed since at least George Washington’s time. It was reported in 1776 that part time dentist of Boston Paul Revere, was able to tell from the grape shot remains of a combatant that they most assuredly belonged to a former patient Joseph Warren whom he had fitted with a canine tooth crafted from walrus tusk years earlier. Might we consider then that SM had never have been subjected to dental treatment due to his not having much (recent) contact with large towns where citizenry would be mostly familiar with the dentist chair, or not having been in the services. I’m not offering this as a personal opinion, just food for thought, as they (team B) are wont to say.
It’s been questioned more than a couple of times as to what kind of diet a man with no chewing teeth would have followed to reach such a buff physical appearance in times of rationing …
Peteb: I just happen to know a fellow with almost identical in built eating utensils as that of our esteemed SM esq., who for as many years as he can recall has had no difficulty whatsoever in enjoying a decent diet of just about whatever’s on the menu. Might take a little longer with mastication to be sure but, who cares when time’s on your side; Might add that the bloke who’s sans dentures, is as fit as Joe Palooka ever was and the sheilas can’t get enough of the toothless old brute.
Not good enough, squire, unqualified accounts of personal experiences, true or not, do not explain this bloke’s extraordinary degree of fitness … as described by Paul Lawson, himself no stranger to the degree of fitness needed in the grappling game .. then again, your are known for having an answer for everything … even the amount of hair on the head of detective Canney, how we chuckled at that.
I’m calling you out, Johnno, the whiff of bullshit is too thick. But we can still be mates.
Peteb: Errol Sydney Canney was a dark haired ACT based Superintendent, acting in the role of Chief Instructor at Manly Police College when we crossed paths in late 1973 and again in ’74, whereupon he presented the graduates with Investigators course certificates prior to attaining Detective rank….When the whiff of bullshit is getting too thick to handle, then I’d suggest it’s time old Bozo pulled his head out of his arse and stuck it back up GF’s or GC’s…where it’d have a warm sense of belonging.
Peteb: The West Terrace uplift kitty’s long spent by now, with Sapol’s ‘Doc’ Hee Haw and his side kick Rip Van der Hum now likely assigned to Somerton Beach traffic control or similar after years of wasted effort on cold cases. As for the lab techs brought in to do the DNA matching or whatever they’re going for, I’d expect most are under Covid lockdown by now or else are delivering pizzas to those who are. Nobody gives a rats arse about our Unknown Man, how he met his end or by whose hand in these turbulent times and so we can only bide our time and see what direction things will take when S.A. learns to get by with less to spend on it’s indulgences.
Four months has passed and still no news. One might have cause to wonder whether the cold case plods were ever made aware that multiple sets of remains occupied the exhumation site. The uplift team would surely be cognisant of the fact by now, though baring in mind Somerton Man’s pre determined somewhat unique physical attributes, perhaps the unearthing of three separate skulls and extras did not surprise them unduly.
Something interesting regarding former S.A. Attorney General John Rau’s refusul to authorise SM’s exhumation on grounds of there being nothing to be gained apart from satisfying the whims of social interest groups. A year or more ago I did an expose on a possible alternate reason based on my research into his family tree that disclosed the man’s paternal grandmother to be a Keane from Hambley Bridge. My several related posts entered on the then accommodating Ultimate SM web site have sibce been expunged, so much for Adelaide blogger Kyle’s original boast of unbiased freedom of expression. Wonder what changed his mind?.
John Sanders: any idea why someone from Canada would try to leave a comment here alleging that you killed Superman in 1959?
Nick Pelling: Only way to kill Superman far as I know is with Kryptonite and I’d run out by ’57. So can’t put that rap on moi. Glad to have incumbant Justin Trudeau skin the la grenouille supporters in his recent re-election triumph.
MM: maybe it was drinking pal Va(o)n Ronkel gave Superman something to help him sleep. The red kryptonite tipped 9mm slug is ‘faster than a speeding bullet’ and Rip certainly knew how to use a Luger from his Waffen SS days.
Initial reports stated that SM was interred uppermost on a stack of three in order to be high, dry and conveniently placed in case of later need for exhumation. Just recently I chanced to come across an overlook evaluation of said exhumation that suggested police were surprised to find sought remains at a much lower depth than anticipated. Having seen the odd newly turned grave, read for occupancy in my time, I must say now, looking at June ’49 funeral shots, that the loose earth mound beside the open grave appears of a lesser volume than might be expected of your standard six footer. Sets me to thinking that SM’s remains were removed years before, were never there or else may have worked their way downward to join the two earlier occupants. If the latter be correct than forensics will be in for a tough time, if the former, then it’s case closed for lack of any ingredient proofs.
JS, SM’s skull is distinctive because of the anodontia which is rare. All that is needed for a DNA sample is one bone so identification by means of DNA would still be possible. In any case experts can un-mix skeletal remains, that is what they do in archeological settings, mass graves etc. Sorting out three skeletons should not be too difficult. If there is any doubt regarding the attribution of any bones then stable isotope analysis should sort them out.
Stable isotope analysis will also identify the area(s) where SM grew up.
BD: the discrimination process sounds a piece of piss by your reckoning, spos’n forensucks only identify two sets of remains, or Heaven forbid one of the prior burials was not whole to start with. Sorry I don’t have your faith. If it was so easy to get around the bits and pieces we would have had some answers by now to keep us happy. I’ve written twice to the AG and you can figure what I got back from her minder’s minder’s tea lady…One lump or two, and will you be supporting our run for re-election ?….
If the DNA team are still in the hunt and looking to match what little they have on a given target, I’d like to put forward the ‘Fighting Leanes’ as a likely accessable base to start. Mine identifies as a genuine claimant to the proud lineage, spoiled only in that happenedvto also be a thrice wed, auto thieving, house breaking and boozing member of the otherwise faultless clan. Fortunately for Kenneth Morton Leane, he may have lived beyond the 1948 SM demise-by date.
Predictable news coming through that SA Attorney General Vickie Chapman won’t be on the team by week’s end which leaves poor Jerry Somerton’s remains, what’s left of them if any, in the lap of the Gods, or to be precise Premier Steven Marshall. That’s right a name synomimous with the ubiquetous Marshall files which surviving SM originals will surely recall. So you can bet Steve in his dual rolls as head of state and care taker AG will do all in his power to bury any bones his disgraced former KI colleague had any part in digging up. Shades of John Rau whose grandma was an untouchable Keane which takes us back to square one.
Was the exhumation overseen by Chapman? I thought it was pushed by the police and allowed by Chapman (who was interested). Given the remains are now with the coppers, I’m not sure the politicians are overly involved.
In any event, Marshall is too busy trying to convince Adelaide’s voters that a sports stadium is better use of the public purse than fixing an ambulance ramping crisis or arguing over compulsory acquisition for the latest stages of the South Road redevelopments (with really clever (no sarcasm here….) names for different stages like “T2T” (which is l33t speak for Torrens River to Torrens Road) and I think the latest is “T2D” (Torrens to Darlington).)
I shook hands with Steve Marshall, last year, in Stirling. But, I still counted my fingers.
……So next question a lityle out of context with the thread; Was retired Detective Leane being truthful when in his 1978 interview he stated categorically that he knew of no woman being directly linked to the case. Maybe, maybe not, but that statement to interviewer Littlemore for ‘Inside Story’ TV is more or less supported by both his fellow officer Supt. Len Brown and inexplicably by the taxidermist Paul Lawson, who by 2014? had most definately changed his mind. Gotta have a good memory to be a false witness what?
Clive: milongal came up with the same yoke day or so back. Marshall must’ve been early in the year, bastard’s been adhering to the Morrison no shake mandate since March ’20. Guess you went up to check the Marg Langley headstone; Didn’t chance chance to swing by Jo Thomson’s old place over by Mount Lofty did you?.
It was disclosed on SM reclamation day, that the exhumed remains were located at a deeper level than had been anticipated. This in light of interment specs that included a co-share arrangement with two earlier burials from the pioneering days. Original plan by design was for Jerry to occupy the topmost near surface bunk in order for easy exhumation if needed but, what transpired did not go with those 1949 contingencies at all, including less than perfect preservation of said remains.The standard 6 foot grave depth would include 20 inches of occupaion each by two earlier burials, meaning that y’man’s bum should not be more than say 30 inches from the plot surface which it obviously wasn’t. Should we not be surprised with what transpired, it being a given the police had not been made fully aware of the task at hand. No doubt similar to what the same dig team achieved with their two recent farcical ‘Beaumont Castaloy’ digs.
It has just been announced that the identity of an unidentified body found floating in a Carley raft near Christmas Island has now been identified through DNA as being a crew member of HMAS Sydney that was lost with all hands (645) after a battle with a German Q-ship Kormoran in WW2. Apparently the authorities have had the recovered DNA for 15 years which I find unbelievable.
Byron: smart money seems to be on Sydney shipmates Norm Foster or Bob Hill, one from the west and t’other from Adelaide, neither being consistant with earlier DNA test data suggesting QLD or NSW as more likely states of upbringing for the exhumed body.
Byron: second thoughts suggest it was not likely to have been either of the above, both of whom were engine room artificers, most likely trying to keep the Sydney’s boilers alive as she was steaming clear of of the Kormoron’s (?) last fusilade.when she blew up. As an aside Bob Hill lived at 12 The Broadway, just 200 metres from 90A Moseley St. Glenelg and 550 metres from X marks the spot, Somerton when he inlisted. His older brother Ron an RAAF crewman was lost when his Mitchell bomber went down during a training excercise off Darwin in early 1943.
Byron: Tom ‘Nobby’ Clark, a 20 year old, six foot, fair haired AB fom New Farm Qld., doesn’t really tally with earlier data from S.A. forensic labs eg., 22 to 30 red headed Jock or Paddy background who spent time in the bush as a lad. Dad Jim was in mid sixties and had two named wifes and three other sons to his credit by 1920. First offenders described a typical P.O. boiler suit on the body and attending physician did not mention an appendix scar. What’s this got to do with Somerton Man one might ask. HMAS Sydney Tom had an older brother Arthur, an army engineer who served as first mate (lieutenant) with Alf Boxall in 12th Water Tranport (SS) from ’43 to ’46 and could have duffed Alf’s ship counting Nurse on Clifton Gardens hotel verandah harbour overlook. Some further DNA doubts might well be in order but then I’d be accused of ultracrepidorial biases and that would hurt my image imeasurably..
Something seems to be awry with latest forensic identification, namely in that it was apparently aided by dental layout of teeth that were extensively gold filled; Whereas a named eye witess from Christmas Island along with others present at time of discovery, attested to close examination of the body revealing perfect teeth with no signs of any fillings whatsoever. So what gives?
john sanders: is this gold filling in a recent newspaper article I’m unaware of? You know how newspapers love a bit of filler.
It was in one of the newspapers yesterday early and on a review last night I could not relocate amongst the many thst had taken it up. I’ll look again now and doubt that it was filler due to the nominal quote as Irecall.
NP: Daily Mail On Line’s Pat Collins writes, The Navy’s Seapower Centre for Research and the Australian Federal Police team painstakingly whittled down possible matches. The fact that Mr. Clark was tall for the time and had a moutfull of gold fillings helped….if this were to be correct, even without historical contrary claims of perfect teeth etc., by contemporary on-site eye witnesses, then the chances of the identified remains being those of Able Seaman Clark are in jeopary. Japanese forces took control of Christmas Is. less than a month after discovery and remained in charge until August 1945, they would undoubtedly have plundered the graveyard in search of secreted valuables, especially newly turned plots and gold fillings in cadavers would not have escaped detection. In that case we’d have to be looking at a post WW 2 burial, one incorrectly targeted by the search team in recent times. I might also point out that Tom Clark’s relatives, the Welsbys on his mother Marion’s side, were well documented seafares, traders and south sea Island adventurers. We’re not to know whether or not any were involved in the island’s guano trade with Singapore post war, but it’s likely and quite conceivable that one of the clan was interred there post war.
NP: A factor that I hadn’t considered and was not aware of is, that the body was recovered in what may have been a deliberately hard to find location, the coffin being form fitted to the mummified remains and upended which would have scared the living hell out of any foraging nip treasure hunters circa. 1942/45.
Senate hearing 2000?
Reports that the body had perfect teeth appear to have originated with Jack Pettigrew, an island resident who had attended the funeral. Jack said that when examined, medical personnel found the body to have a perfect set of teeth, no extractions or fillings…..observations were confirmed by other Island residents.
Naval Historical Society 2009
The dental examination was of particular interest as the body had significant high quality and expensive dental work, with several gold fillings; and there was also a missing tooth but with the gap completely closed over by another tooth at a most noticeable angle.
That sound to you like contributors are discussing the same donor?….
The Christmas Island body scientific geeks may not have achieved much in their forensic quest but, they sure backed a winner with their choice of Thomas Welsby Clarke as only nominee the recovered body’s link to the ill fated HMAS Sydney. Whilst justification for conclusions did not gel with the other evidence released periodically since recovery, it seems that ancestrial links between a non candidate Thomas Clark to two influential pioneering Australia wins him natural elevation to top billing for hisorical convenience. The Welsby/Clark families were both rather well connected in governmental, business and sporting circles of old, colonial aristocracy being a word that fits their status. James Clark was a Newcastle (NSW) orphan of the mid ’50s who became a builders boy and yet, by the 1880s Jim was unrivalled ‘Pearl King of the world’ with 150 plus luggers working rich beds from Broome to Thursday Island. In later years between federation and the outbreak of WW1 he had sole rights to the fertile Indo-Dutch grounds and so amassed his first million. He then got into grazing, opal mining, horse breeding, yachting and other sports while taking care of accounts at the Brisbane office when not busy. Not sure what his worth was when he died in 1933 but son ‘Colin’ left a tidy sum for his wife of £200,000 in 1948, then in 1954 Able Seaman Clark’s own estate was given as being over £41,000.
No doubts that the name Thomas Welsby Clark was an ideal choice, forget about inconsistent physical and uniform matching etc. Can we expect something similar in Jerry Somerton’s case, youbetcha if it’s a means to a more fitting end.
…especially now that Vickie Chapman, who authorised the exhumation after her predecessor’s downfall, has now gone and with her the necessary treasury purse strings for future SM funding. As an aside anyone naive enough to think politics played no part in Jerry’s uplifting and resultant world headline top billing needs a lesson in S.A. pork barrel diplomacy.
NP: resident surgeon on Christmas Island in early 1942 was Dr. James S. Clark. He dutifully undertook the gruesome task of conducting an autopsy on the badly decomposed carley float body that had come ashore in February. That’s right Dr. Clark, same surname as the conveniently identiified Sydney disaster’s sole victim recovery. From fifteen years of painstaking forensic and anthropological testing it has been disclosed that the so called ‘Sydney Man’ Tom Clark was apparently accustomed to squatting in the manner of orientals and island natives etc., and that he had denenerative spinal issues, most unusual for one so young (my take). From other historical tabloid sources we know that the chosen one, a tycoons son had an extremely privilaged city upbringing and that prior to induction into the navy at age 20, he had served in the Infantry Militia, whilst working as a clerk in dad’s Brisbane city accounting firm. Both his brothers Arthur and James (Colin) served with distinction in the war and in a recent article, we learn that on his last leave AB Clark got to hold his new niece Leigh. Retired academic Dr. Leigh Lehane of Canberra aged 81 and husband Robert have just released their own book on the Sydney sinking aftermath, including much unpublished detail on their deceased relatives no doubt. I get the feeling that everything has fallen into place ever so swimmingly with the hard earned final solution thanks mainly to a most fortunate ‘mouthful of gold fillings’ for the all telling dental DNA matches….If we’re fortunate at SM Central we can anticipate a similar success story in a decade or so, of course long after most of us are with any luck dead and dusted, too late for the surprrises in store.
Recent talk of long delays on the HMAS Sydney carley float identity makes me shudder at both the possibilities of a similar lengthy interval in Jerry Somerton’s case, likely with a name that he was never known by and still no place to call home. This of course may depend on factors overiding any genuine Police forensics/DNA comparison work undertaken ie., involvement of a select committee with final say to ensure good outcome for the all important virtual history books.
From memory, not so long after exhumation of remains on Christmas Island in 2006, anxious media were given a physical description of the body and it’s state of preservation which was enough to satisfy the ghouls. Not quite so in the case of Somerton man where, after six months the only information that has come to light from initial police sources is that overall condition of the remains are suitable for successful DNA/isotopal extraction purposes. Nothing was said to confirm the man’s given height when alive, his dental make-up including fillings, or other preserved bits and pieces suitable for DNA or isotopal extraction etc…Bout time for a bi-annual press update briefing before interest in the SM case evaporates.
Matt Kleig: Here’s a nice’n easy little mission while you’re waiting for hopeful news on the Derek Abbott & Colleen Fitzgerald front; forget about Safcol’s toe tag mob their dead as West Terrace cemetery. This one’s close to home for you as well and, it connects Rob Thomson’s DNA to direct ancestors in Virginia USA. Start point is Elizabeth Cittie 1645 with the birth of James Ransom to colonist settler Peter Ransone or Randsom and a local lass of poor standing. You can track heirs and successors over two hundred years through different surname spelling variations and others like Pleasance in 18th century Maryland?, then over to Van Diemens land of 1830s as Boynes and Von Stieglists, to NSW and across to central Queensland; It gets a bit tricky with Robs perhaps great grand ma Florence Comrie-Smith nee Thomson with converginmale/female/cousin-cousin branch lines, come-back name changing circa. 1915 ie. Aubrey Von S. to Thomson etc. I worked it out in an hour or so, plus a week to get relationships in sync. all on the geni sites and, I’m as dumb as they come, just ask Peteb if you happen upon him in your short term visits to TBT. PS: You’ll find plenty on the family members in business, war and around and about from 1890s or so on Trove Aust.
Tamara: seeing as your still Keane on the Thomson connection, you might check out Tbt’s latest DNA thread analysis quoting his bevy of experts in that intriguing Somerton side- show. In that there appear to be traces of a non specific Thomson line running through the veins of current inheritors to Jo’s lineage, many see this as being key to solving the case, manifestly misguided or not. No need to go through all the intrigate possibilities of my own research which I’ve referred to it more often than should have been necessary though sadly without input. Suffice to say the names Thomson @ Von Stieglist, Boyne Smith and others from 1845 onwards (Aust/NZ) tracing back through the US Pleasance lineage &c to a James Ransom of colonial Virginia circa. 1645, must not be denied relativity.
Peteb: there most certainly is something gone awray with Sapol forensics and basically they’re having similar problems with the exhumed remains as indeed everyone else including your good self are having ie., a total lack of nouse on the effects seventy years of rising damp plus ravages of time be capapable of doing to a cadaver in its flimsy presswood enclosure. Not to mention the team neglecting to take into account that two alien bedfellows co shared with Jerry, one a lad from the previous century, t’other a John doe of an interim vintage. You saw the back hoe at work in West Terrace and can appreciate the lack of due care being taken with the uplift. You might also recall Des Bray telling the press that remains were located at a deeper level than they were expecting (dah). That being the case there must have been a pretty good pot pourrie in their fake pine box after they were done, dumb asses….So any questions squire?
Clive: what remains you be on about mate, not likely to have been any from my front row seat; unless your meaning the DNA laden leatherette toe tag which Des Bray or one of his motley crew nonchantly tossed back into the abyss whence it came.
On a question without notice if it pleases; Any signs that “Carl Webb” may have been re-interred at West Terrace while the rest of us have been arguing the toss over his by now confirmed mortal remains, as we are being asked to believe?