When in October 1951 Carl Webb’s wife filed a divorce petition (apparently not knowing of his 1948 demise on/near Somerton Beach), it listed Webb’s address as “formerly of Bromby-street, South Yarra, but now of parts unknown”. The 1942 electoral rolls then helped us narrow this to 63 Bromby Street, with small ads in The Argus narrowing it further to Flat 2, 63 Bromby Street.
So now let’s take a trip baaaack in tiiiime (cue wavy transition)…
Maps of Bromby Street
Here’s the relevant section of an 1895 Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works detail map (courtesy of the State Library of Victoria), showing the tramway engine house on the left that became Kellow House, with #63 three doors down to the East (there is no #65, or #69), with a R[ight] of W[ay] down the laneway:
In this section of Map 39 from Morgan’s 1951 Street Directory, courtesy of the State Library of Victoria, the road layout hasn’t changed at all (I couldn’t find the 897 detail map of the 1948 MMBW set, bah):
Here’s the same area in Google Maps today (the Royce Hotel on the left is the former Kellow House, the Kellow Falkiner car showroom built in 1928):
Photos of Bromby Street
A few days ago, Cipher Mysteries commenter (and Melburnian) Jo headed over to Bromby Street to have a snoop around. Jo’s first photograph was taken looking down Bromby Street, where #63 is the white building on the left hand side further down the street:
The next photo shows Melbourne Grammar School (which was taken over by American forces during WWII) as viewed from the laneway beside #63:
This photo shows #63 (and the laneway going to the back) as viewed from the Melbourne Grammar side of the road:
Finally, here’s a picture of the front of Kellow House (the former car showroom that was taken over by RAAF signals during the war):
So, where’s y’a bin Carl, Dorothy?
@ Nick
I love Map 39! Nice find! I will mark up all of the signals intelligence locations on this one – there are around 14 of them!! Although I’m moving away from thinking this might be the main game…
I want you to keep moving down that laneway and around the corner!
Great job, Jo! Thank you.
Thank you for the photos (Jo) and the posting (Nick). It’s nice to see what still remains of this location.
Thanks a lot, Jo and Nick! So their previous address at 274, Domain Rd is just around the corner?
A bit off topic for this post… What are the chances that Dorothy kept the name Webb after the divorce? And which is the exact date for the divorce? I have found a Dorothy Jean Webb marrying a Warren Charles Thorne in 1961 in Kurri Kurri, NSW but nothing else about them.
Thanks Jo and Nick for the photos!
Pat – Unfortunately, I don’t think that it’s her…
Name: Dorothy Jean Thorne
Maiden Name: Webb
Gender: Female
Death Date: 2013
Burial Date: 19 Nov 2013
Burial Place: Suvla Street, East Ballina
Obituary Date: 16 Nov 2013
Spouse: Warren
Child:
Warren
Arthur
Eric
Siblings:
Herbert
David
Robert
Ronnie
Roy
Shirley Walton
Aileen Billinghurst
@ Pat – the previous address is about 15 mins walk away & is now flats. It was a large old house, “Osmington” that was used as a private hospital and then boarding house. Tristan Buesst, who became an army major and army intelligence chief, owned it between 1933-6, but I don’t think he ever lived there as I have a directory from 1934 that lists it as a hospital.
It’s what’s around the corner from this address that might be interesting! I hope Nick will post a picture!/s
@ Nick – a retired Grammar School teacher told me that he remembers the yard in the 80s & 90s, an eccentric old bloke whose name he was trying to remember, did servicing & repairs there. A few teachers were regular clients & it was referred to as “the Bromby Street yard”. It’s subject to a planning application, so will soon be gone! I noticed a grab rail (mobility aid) at the Bromby Street back gate, so wonder if he was a previous tenant or owner of 63?
@ Pat- I realised there might be confusion between Domain Street, which runs up to the Grammar School & Domain Road, a longer main road. If you look at the pink map, Domain Road is the one adjacent to the Botanical Gardens, with dots running along it, indicating the old #8 tram route. If you click on the link provided with the map, 274 Domain Road is between Avoca & Murphy Streets.
Thanks misca! We keep searching for the lady!
I got a chance to go back and double check on Dorothy Jean Thorne.
…Because you never know!
There is a find-a-grave listing for her that gives her date of birth as 15 July 1941 which checks out as her husband Warren was born in 1942.
Someone who has lost a brooch between Bromby Street and Domain Road or in Toorak tram in April 1945
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1094503?searchTerm=windsor%207621
The same number is used in 1941 by someone seeking work as a nurse – “semi casual or invalid several years experience”.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8182876?searchTerm=windsor%207621
Is this too early to be looking for or trying to link to Jessica Harkness? She would be 21, I don’t know whether she was living in Melbourne at these times or had begun her formal nurses training? It could be possible that she had done nursing assistant type work, not requiring formal training, leading on to formal training…
Tallulah: seems possible that Carl, having fulfilled his familial duty to locate brother Roy’s grave on the Thai-Burma border in late 1945, chose to stay on with other volunteers at request of the Internationally constituted (Webb) Military Tribunal inquiring into Nippon attrocities committed during the recent war. In so doing he may well have contracted some form of untreatable jungle malaise and returned home to die. As for Dot, I heard somewhere that she took off to parts unknown while hubby was on his overseas sojourn and according to unvarified rumours stayed at a rural community called Bute up in Nth. West Sth Africa for a bit.
If you look at the aerial photograph you will see that there is a large yard with a covered area, to the rear of 63 Bromby Street and to the left of of the frame – you can see a corrugated iron roof and a white vehicle, parked. There is also an old brick garage there. Until a few years ago, this was a back yard car modification and repair yard, run by “an eccentric old bloke” who lived around the corner on Arnold Street (the yard belongs to two houses on Arnold Street and is about to be built over…). The “Bromby Street yard” is entered via the laneway next to 63 Bromby Street, you turn a corner at the two old garages belonging to 63 Bromby Street (spotted by Misca on Google maps). Around the corner from Bromby Street, at 39-41 Arnold Street is “Motor Works” an art deco motor workshop, the Motor Works laneway also leads to the Bromby Street Yard. For most of its life Motor Works was, as the name suggests, a car workshop; it briefly became a Porche dealership, in the early 1990s. The building was purchased by Melbourne Grammar School in 1994, to become the current “Motor Works Visual Arts Precinct”. That’s all from Snoopy for now, peanuts?
Click on all of the squares featuring cars:
Childhood – born in Footscray/Yarraville in 1905, quite a mobile childhood: Yarraville, Shepparton (?), Camperdown 1916-20 – a large, busy, musically inclined family, Charlie is an academically able student.
Adolescence – Glenferrie Rd, Malvern 1920-22, studying maths/engineering subjects at Swinburne Techncial School, playing footy.
Young adult – Kangaroo Road Oakleigh (1924-27?), apprenticeship? employment? Kelly and Lewis by train? (Both home and the factory are close to the same train line). Electrical fitter.
Springvale: 1927-39 when the bakery is sold and RA Webb dies… Still playing a bit of footy, doing puzzles, a camping trip…
Bakery and other employment? (Jack Norris and Wally Scott are also working at the bakery, perhaps Roy too?). Kelly and Lewis? 10 mins walk from home… Car engine parts and modifications, eg Light Car Club member HS McLaren’s rotary valve, iron and steel fabrication for engineering contracts. (K&L director owns a Jaguar).
1939-41? Does Charlie move with his parents to 15 Coates St Essendon? Dot and Daniel Martin (bookmaker?) are nearby… Opportunities for work in nearby Footscray and Maribyrnong munitions factories… ?
1941 – Marriage to Doff with Dot Martin and JCR as witnesses. Occupation, instrument maker. Address given as 274 Domain Road South Yarra, where apparently (via David Morgan?), Bertram Whiting, another Light Car Club member is also living. BW becomes Mountbatten’s ADC, before settling into a post war life of rural bee keeping and poetry (his brother in law becomes a Prime Minister…).
1941-47 Bromby Street, living in a small apartment building adjoining a car workshop and possibly a less formal car work yard. After the Webbs leave, the apartment is taken on by another Light Car Club member, Derry George, who sells a number of cars from this property into the early 1950s.
23 Feb 1946 – someone called Webb, attached to Windsor Crescent, Mont Albert is seeking a cheap old utility truck (via @Nick).
March 1947 – Prosper T is seeking a partner for a used car business
April 1947 – Charlie apparently leaves Dorothy and Bromby Street (Colleen Fitzpatrick has said he would go missing for periods before this).
September 1947 – Webb of Windsor Crescent Mont Albert is seeking engineering work (probably mechanical engineering as he advertises his “steam ticket”) – manufacturing etc. A number of cars are sold from this property from the late 1940s into the early 1950s… (suggesting a similar set up to Bromby Street?)
1947-November 1948? – Melbourne? Port Pirie? Broken Hill?
Can anyone find info on Dorothy Jeanne Gartly, born around 1919, died in 1999, cremated/buried at Northern Suburbs Memorial Gardens and Crematorium, North Ryde, NSW?
Not completely SM related but do you think this dude is related to the more famous motoring Kiwi, Mr Bruce McLaren?
https://patents.google.com/?assignee=hugh+stanley+mclaren&oq=hugh+stanley+mclaren
He was keenly supported and followed by Kelly and Lewis of Springvale, the large engineering factory, close to what was probably the Webb’s bakery (K & L manufactured McLaren’s engines/engine parts and their press clippings scrap book had quite a few clips on McLaren and his inventions)…
Pat –
Her father Henry Ommanney Kelty appears on an electoral roll (Westmead, Parramatta) with his wife (as listed inDorothy Jeanne’s marriage certificate) and he is a carriage maker.
Name Dorothy Jeane Kelty
Gender Female
Age 28
Birth Year 1919
Marriage Date 8 Mar 1947
Marriage Place Parramatta, Cumberland, New South Wales, Australia
Father Henry Ommanney Kelty
Mother Olive Christina Elizabeth Walker
Spouse Norman Keith Gartly
Spouse Age 29
Spouse Father Norman Rae Gartly
Spouse Mother Maude Olive Gartly
@misca, thanks!
@jo,
Bertram Whiting – after taking his bees around Australia in a caravan – his business fails. He said he couldn’t attract Queen bees. Luckily his wife is a successful sculptor. They move to England then Italy where he dies. His family release his poetry after his death. His job with Mountbatten was short-lived (but much more impressive on his CV). He moved on to Mr R.G. Casey 1942/43. I doubt Bertram was home much during WW2.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38567097?searchTerm=r.g.%20casey%2C%20bengal
My point about Carl living there was really about the calibre of person who lived there. I think one judge also lived there but took over a military training camp – like Seymour. He was paid just over £2/week.
Car tinkerer (Carl), tailor to Mountbatten (Whiting), old soldier (the judge), spy (Dorothy?)
Jean Dorothy Carolane (nee Robertson), b. 30 April 1920, Ivanhoe, Vic# 13550/1920, daughter of John Duncan Robertson and Rubina Isobel Robertson (nee Tarrant), married John Francis Carolane and had two or three children. She died in 2019 and her husband died in 2018.
Could she and Dorothy Jean be one and the same? Rubina Robertson died in 1920, maybe just after giving birth to her daughter, and Jean Dorothy was registered again as Dorothy Jean by John Comber and Alice?
John Duncan Robertson died in Heidelberg in 1975, same place as John Comber Robertson.
Surely they were related?
There’s another date for Rubina’s death in 1969… so I guess Jean Dorothy is not Dorothy Jean, but are they related?
It might be timely to mention that in Christendom circa. 1920, the name Dorothy (Dorothea) was ranked a close second behind tyke rival Mary (Maria) for popularity and was still at number three in 1930, before briefly taking over top spot around 1940/42. On the other hand the ever popular Jean (Jeanie) was never further back than fifteenth place historically and so I’d reckon that Pat’s enthusiasm for the Dorothy Jean combinations with an unrelenting barrage of connected surnames from that era be quite predictable and therefore unlikely to bare fruit.
Never mind… somewhat famous footballer…
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Jack_Robertson_(footballer,_born_1889)
@ David Morgan- so, did Bertram Whiting ever live at 274 Domain Rd?
@ David Morgan – I took you literally and had quite a lot riding on Whiting being at 274 Domain Road! Spook recruiting, hob nobbing with elite military, Light Car Club connections…
I had even been thinking of us putting in a collective application to send @ Nick to the BR Whiting Studio, in Rome, courtesy of the Australia Council – for its writer in residence program, where Nick could have continued to produce many more SM Cipher Mysteries posts, whilst enjoying his cacio e pepe, washed down with a glass of red! I know he’s not Australian but I’m sure he’d pass muster and sure knows his Trove!
https://australiacouncil.gov.au/investment-and-development/international-engagement/residencies/br-whiting-studio-rome/
Maybe there is a connection, Whiting’s sculptor wife, Lorri had a younger brother who would have been at school across the road from the Webbs whilst they lived at Bromby Street (MGS 1944-48). (He became Australia’s 22nd Prime Minister…).
@ David Morgan- I sometimes wonder whether Bertram Whiting’s failed bee keeping tour was a ruse for other work…
Some biddy recently asked if Jo Harkness was likely to have associated with the Bromby street auto racing, car stealing mob or with their deep cover plottings and brewings. Donald Harkness was undoubtedly the most celebrated Australian auto speed merchant of the post WW1 era up until WW2 when he carried over to his real passion for full time mechanical development of race cars and aircraft. Don lived just a mile or so from where Jessica Harkness was said to have been born, so the story goes but, I’ve yet to find any familial connections between the pair. Sorry.
One thing that came up on myheritage that may or may not mean anything is, that yet another Dorothy Jean Evans also born in 1926, died at or soon after birth which gives rise to the possibility of a slick re birthing operation.
If anyone is still interested… looking and zooming in on Google maps you can see the mailboxes in the apartments at 63 Bromby st. Apartment 2 is on the opposite side of the laneway, on the ground floor. Apartment 1 would be next to the laneway, on the ground floor.
https://ibb.co/ssjk5BX
Hi Pat – I’ll double check next time I go past. The numbers get confusing as early ads have the Webbs at 2/63, the furniture is sold from 1/63 and the law clerk, investigating for the divorce case, interviewed people at 2/63 who were living at 63 when the Webbs were… A contemporary real estate ad for number one has distinctive curtains that can be seen from the laneway, so I think your pick is correct. 1/63 would be a better apartment as more natural light….
On the bakery, I picked the wrong building. I found the street number in a later edition of Sands and McDougal – it was 233 Springvale Road Springvale, which is now a hardware shop and taekwondo centre in a more contemporary building, still in the same section of Springvale Road and quite a generous size.
@Jo,
I assume the beekeeping tour was some form of PTSD therapy. He seemed to live off his wife afterward with her sculptures and they ended up in Italy. Bertram had witnessed war in Burma and people starving to death in India.
He did write a poetry book that was published after his death. It is a bit strange that both Carl and Bertram became fixated on poetry. It would be interesting to see whether Bertram wrote death poetry. He may have been sharing his work with Carl if they lived in Domain road at the same time. Penpals later? It could be Bertram had sent him the rare Rubaiyat copy.
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/poems-b-r-whiting/
Though he seems happy in Italy (I assume) from the book cover.
@Jo
I think there are some possible explanations for the confusion.
1) The numbers have changed for some practical reason
2) Carl and Dorothy could have resided at flat 2 and then moved to flat 1 when it became available
3) Carl could have been selling his stuff and giving the neighbour’s address (with his/her consent) to avoid ‘disturbing’ Dorothy, and when he sold the furniture he could have been already living with the Keanes and let the neighbour deal with potential buyers.
Thanks for the info on the bakery! I wish I had the skills to put all this info on an interactive map where we could see the movements of all the people involved!
As mentioned on another thread, I think that the only reference to Webb and Flat 2 may have been a typo or transcription error and that the Webbs lived at Flat 1 (from where furniture is sold in November 1947) and the Georges at Flat 2, with an overlapping period. There are several references to George and Flat 2 – always spelled out vs 2/63 – as per the only C Webb 2/63 Bromby St.
I wonder whether the Georges were the link between the Webbs and the Thomsons? Shared interests in cars, car rallies and hill climbs? Derry George lived in Bayside suburbs Hampton and Sandringham prior to enlisting in the RAAF.
I’m also wondering if Rita George, née Dixon, was involved in the AWAS? I can’t find a Veterans Affairs listing for her, but she may have been involved in signals work. Perhaps at Fawkner Park (5mins from Bromby St) or the former Kellows showroom (cnr Bromby St & St Kilda Road). See:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206818749?searchTerm=Rita%20Dixon
I‘ve also mentioned an informal car yard to the rear of Bromby Street (belonging to a house around the corner in Arnold Street). There are some good photos in this planning application- on pages 3 and 23.
https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/about-council/committees-meetings/meeting-archive/MeetingAgendaItemAttachments/959/17036/OCT21%20FMC2%20AGENDA%20ITEM%206.3.pdf
The red brick building with the green doors is the garage for 63 Bromby St.
Also:
https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/about-council/committees-meetings/meeting-archive/MeetingAgendaItemAttachments/959/17036/OCT21%20FMC2%20AGENDA%20ITEM%206.3.pdf
I used to walk down Bromby St frequently, especially when my children were young. There is an old lamp post near #63; cast iron, painted black with a climbing vine, painted gold. I can’t find any photos of it. Until a few years ago it was maintained by one of the gas companies as one of Melbourne’s last gas lit street lamps. We likened it to the lamppost in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and always referred to it as the Magic Lamppost. It was quite beautiful on cold, darkening evenings, with its warm, refracted light. It’s no longer lit…
https://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/about-council/committees-meetings/meeting-archive/MeetingAgendaItemAttachments/878/15658/NOV19%20FMC1%20AGENDA%20ITEM%206.3%20PLANNING%20PERMIT%20APPLICATION%20TP-2018-790%2045%20and%2047.pdf
More pics of the car yard…
Today the area of Bromby Street where the Webbs lived is very quiet, despite being opposite Melbourne Grammar School. The road is blocked to through traffic from nearby St Kilda Road.
The Royce Hotel on the corner of Bromby Street and St Kilda Road has recently reopened after a refurbishment. It is very upmarket, swish and Gatsbyesque! It began life as an upmarket car showroom and was then taken over by he RAAF for WWII signals work. There is a brief history here: https://roycehotel.com.au/our-story/
What surprised me is that the short stretch of St Kilda Road around the corner from the Webb’s apartment was once motor car central! This is from a recent heritage review commissioned by the City of Melbourne (the words in brackets are my additions):
“The introduction of motor cars in the early 1900s transformed the roads and saw new services introduced. As an area of relative affluence, there was a relatively high rate of car ownership in South Yarra. The Motor House Co. opened in 1908 at what is now 407 St Kilda Road. (corner of St Kilda Road and Arnold Street/Toorak Road – now Gentleman George burgers and beers and Subway). The buildings on the site today appear to date to the 1920s. An early motor garage opened in Arnold Street in 1912, which was one of the earliest in Melbourne (Now Melbourne Grammar School Motor Works Arts Studio). The Arnold Street workshops (37–41 Arnold Street) had its main office at 391 St Kilda Road (next to Kellows and backing onto the informal car yard detailed in my earlier comment post). Three motor-related businesses operated in this section of St Kilda Road in 1931 (S&Mc). This operated as Brodribb Bros Ltd from 1930 and then as Day & Son Motor Engineers from 1940 (Grow 2003: 6). By the 1930s–40s, a motor garages was operating in St Martins Lane (built 1921 – closed 2010, opposite what was the Little Theatre Company in the 1940s, now St Martin’s Youth Theatre). There was another motor garage on Toorak Road, near the corner of St Kilda Road, as well as Southern Cross Service Station on St Kilda Road, built in the c. late 1920s (demolished 1960s – picture in report below)”
(South Yarra Heritage Review―Volume 3: Thematic Environmental History p86).
https://hdp-au-prod-app-com-participate-files.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/1616/7815/5344/South_Yarra_Heritage_Review_Volume_3_Thematic_Environmental_History.pdf
Apart from the St Martins Lane workshop, the others are around the corner from Bromby Street. The description above can be a bit confusing as the same premises are given multiple mentions. Here is what I’ve pieced together via the Review, Sands and Mc, Trove and local knowledge:
– Kellow House – car showroom from 1920s until WWII then used by State Government until early 1990s, then Royce Hotel.
– 37-41 Arnold Street – early motor works from 1912-1992, adjacent yard, behind 63 Bromby Street and Arnold Street houses used until around 2010.
– 391 St Kilda Road (next to Kellows) – head office for Motor Works, Brodbribb Brothers from 1930s, Day and Son from late 1930s; early 1940s becomes Southern Cross Service Station, briefly used as store during WWII then reverted back to Southern Cross Service Station until 1960s when the building was demolished (now stores and garage for Royce Hotel, adjacent to legal and medical practice)
– 407 St Kilda Road – early garage 1908 – 1940s; became the Jolly Roger Café in the mid 1940s, now Gentleman George restaurant and Subway (Roscoes from 1980s-2020).
I’m with @ Dude – that wherever you look in this case there were cars:
– Prosper T – taxis, car trading; later – car rallies, hill climbs
– Derry George (Bromby Street neighbour), an early racing car driver and mechanic, who also traded cars and later owned a service station; early participant in hill climbs, later co-attended by the Thomsons, including Robin
– Geoff Lockyer – ran McDowell’s garage in Perth in the mid 1940s.
– Jack Keane – mechanic with Lanes Motors, South Melbourne; possible owner of the mechanically splendid 1937 Morris 8 Roadster sold by Charlie in 1942 (sold just after Jack’s January 1942 period of leave from the RAAF). Jack and Derry George were both in the RAAF.
If Charlie did know the Thomsons I believe it was through car trade or car work connections, beyond that I think everything gets a bit speculative. I think it all hinges on whether or not he was moved to where he found and when…
The early twentieth century Australian car world might seem a bit blokey. This is from the Wikipedia entry for Alice Anderson of Alice Anderson Motor Service; who also died in sad and mysterious circumstances:
“Inaugurated in 1919, Alice Anderson Motor Service was the first all-women garage workshop in Australia. The services offered included vehicle repair, chauffeuring with garage-owned cars, interstate touring trips, driving classes, and petrol stations. In addition, women could take educational programs on engine technology, and participate in a mechanics apprenticeship. Due to Anderson’s reputation for caring and passion, mothers from all across Australia would send their daughters to the garage to learn to drive. By 1925, the garage was so popular that 50 women applied for the apprenticeship program, the crew grew to 9 members, and the car fleet grew to 5 vehicles. She trained more than thirty young female chauffeurs.
The enterprise continued to operate after Anderson’s death until at least 1954, first with Ethel Bage, a close friend of Anderson, as manager, and then with May Rooney.
On 7 September 1926, Anderson was found dead in her workshop in Kew after a day of work. The coroner’s report suggested that she accidentally shot herself while cleaning two of her guns, and family and friends dismissed the possibility of suicide.
The news stated the following day: “Probably no woman in Melbourne was better known. She pioneered the way to motor garages for women, and made a greater success of it than most men could.” ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Elizabeth_Anderson
Whoa! Can you believe this!
Alice Anderson also has a ROK connection! And a Webb connection – not Carl however, but Jessie, an ancient history teacher from the University of Melbourne!
https://blogs.unimelb.edu.au/librarycollections/2021/06/23/with-the-eyes-of-a-stranger-alice-anderson/
So did Carl shoot the lesbian driver?
Was Carl then living as the woman Miss Webb? His transvestism has long been suggested.
Jan – I think you’re twisting the narrative a bit there! You have a wild and vivid imagination! That’s a compliment of sorts. Should I be happy that someone has (mis)read my comments though? I thought John Sanders was the only one left… perhaps you know the staunch old punter? Miss Anderson’s garage was down the road from Derry George and Bib Stillwell’s. By the way, I don’t think they shot her either…
As Alice Anderson was a member of the lyceum club and it was the era where the ROkwas at its most popular , I am not surprised that she might have come across the ROK. Still permeated through this whole CW narrative is the underworld,cars and the arts
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243701709?searchTerm=Alice%20Anderson
Wow ! What an interesting character Alice Anderson was. Doesn’t sound at all like the would be inclined to take her own life or be careless enough to shoot herself by accident given her mechanical capabilities. Tragic that her death was written off as an accident.
Hi Jo
My name is also Jo – we are the current owners of 47 Arnold Street and are trying to work out some history of one of the old “sheds” on our property – there is one in particular which is brick and I think it would have been stables originally given some of its features.
I’m aware of the history of “old Jack” the mechanic you mentioned who used to service and fix cars in the Bromby Car Yard (he was two owners before us – there are two mechanics’ pits in the rear of our property and he added a lot of metal frames sheds / awnings).
I’m wondering if you have any earlier photos of the area? The brick shed is shown in the 1895 map you have above which is hugely helpful – although its footprint has changed a little.
Any help you could offer would be great!
Hello Jo – I don’t have any earlier photos. I have one of Derry George but don’t believe it is Arnold Street. I’m in the area so will pop a note with my phone number in your letter box. I didn’t meet Jack but know people who took their cars to him.
Thanks Jo! That would be great 🙂
Bert Whiting spent a total of 17 days in India (sans Burma) as part of his service in the AIF as a tank maintainance officer, taking a convenient discharge in May 1945 just after VE day and six months shy of his 23rd birthday. His service record does not indicate any such posting as ADC to either Lords Mountbatten or Casey. David Morgan and Jo will need to check their sources before offering up unsubstantiated facts for their FB base to consider.
Bombers, you bloody beaudy Essendon and you too Scotty!
Sanders, you’ll have to take it up with
https://snaccooperative.org/ark:/99166/w66t1zfr
Or was Bert the tank guy not Bertram the ADC?
I think I know the answer.
Substantiated sources: From the description of Papers of B.R. Whiting, 1939-1996. 1939-1996. (Libraries Australia). WorldCat record id: 221566289
Sanders,
The thing I couldn’t substantiate for Jo was whether Whiting lived in Domain road – his wife’s family did:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246151733?searchTerm=%22Bertram%20whiting%22%2C%20%22domain%20road%22
But another source for ADC, Whiting, Burma, Casey.
Morgan
Service records show that Bertram Whiting left for India from Melbourne on 28 May 1945 and was discharged a couple of weeks later, it having been his first and only OS military posting, . Casey was UK’s Governor of Bengal in 1944; so take your pick David Melbourne Herald or Aust. National Archives.
After Carl Webb’s death, 274 Domain Road was purchased by the children’s hospital (which included treatment for polio victims).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189467386?searchTerm=%22274%20domain%20road%22
AI:
Yes, during the 1940s, there were homes for polio victims in Melbourne. One of them was the Royal Children’s Hospital located at 50 Flemington Road, Parkville, Victoria 30521. The hospital provided care for children suffering from polio and other diseases (1). It was common to see patients being wheeled around in large prams throughout Melbourne suburbs (2). These prams were not only used for transportation but also served as beds for the patients (2).
In 1949, the hospital bought a 20-room mansion at 274 Domain Road, South Yarra, to be used as a home for nurses (1). This purchase indicates the scale of the hospital’s operations during that period (1).
Learn more:
1. pursuit.unimelb.edu.au
2. localhistory.kingston.vic.gov.au
3. collections.museumsvictoria.com.au
also:
https://www.rch.org.au/rch/contact/
Was Carl’s exemption from military service linked to the treatment of polio victims in some way?
DavId Morgan: I seem to recall that Carl Webb’s nephew, William Stanley Webb (?) was physically disabled throughout his life which, if correct may have been polio. That could well fit the agenda for Carl’s military service exemption case somehow.
DavId Morgan: I seem to recall that Carl Webb’s nephew, William Stanley Webb (?) was physically disabled throughout his life which, if correct may have been polio. That could well fit the agenda for Carl’s military service exemption case somehow. Especially when considering that Russell was said to be an invalid whlst his three other sons were inlisted.
@JS,
I wondered whether Carl had given the money for 274 Domain Road as a nurses home. He left with £0 in his bank account, apparently.
Perhaps he posted a bag of cash in Glenelg in the Somerton children’s home. Not even small change in his pocket from buying a pastie.
David Morgan: you’re forgetting the 7d bus fare from town to St. Leonards and the unused train ticket to Henley Beach which he may have bought from the two star booth in the railay concourse earlier. The pastie was merely a suggestion going on presence of partly digested potato in his tucker bag during the autopsy. As for your suggested Somerton children’s home donation, that be worthy of consideration for sure.
David Morgan: it’s worth pointing out again that, Dr. Doug Towsend who sold the two star train ticket (motor rail) could not recall any details of the purchaser when asked by police within hours after it’s discovery in the dead man’s sky rocket, even though it was the first ticket vended by him to Henley Beach the previous shift. I’ve always wondered about the timing of purchase which in all likelihood was early on the morning of Tuesday 30/11/48, before any interstate and country rail services had arrived at Adelaide terminus. As I’ve mooted in years past to the usual non commentaire, Jerry Somerton might just as well have found the lost or discarded ticket in the station concourse upon his arrival from Melbourne eg.
Can I ask for help again please? I listed an address of 128 Anzac Highway Helmsdale as the address for a registered bookmaker. His name was George Phillips. Also living there with his sister Ada Phillips who was a nurse in Adelaide about the same age as Jessi.
Stuart Littlemore (KC) did an ABC doco about SM which is now split into 3 x 10 minute YouTube vids. He later re-visited SM with another doco having Jessi’s nurses and locals sitting on the couch.
I have contacted SL (KC) but he is unable to help.
Would anyone here have a link or knowledge of how I can get hold of the second doco with all sitting on the couch?
The Phillips group had a solid relationship with the CYMS (Catholic Young Mens’ Society) of Adelaide although they were heavily Jewish.
The CYMS was very friendly within the German lecture and recruiting circle.
Thanks.
Alan H…from memory a Stan Cowin lived at your Helmsdale address in SM’s time and now embed in Nth. Brighton cemetery, unsociable mob the Cowins and you never mentioned George Phillips being the Jewish bookmaker so we weren’t to know. As for the doco, could be Dancing With The Dead @Facebook Australia Story 2019 though, on second thoughts the one shown in Adelaide with Jessie’s sister Elen, her Asian doctor and old workmates along with Ken Strapps, Derek Abbott, Gerry Feltus and Paul Lawson in the audience is more
likely. You should still be able to find it linked on one of the Tamam Shud sites.
@ Alan H
This one? https://youtu.be/C4XdHo4j8OU?si=JyRTlZx47OmOsxsb
Alan H…for want of better knowledge all I can come up with is bookmaker George being a Wayville grandstand bookie George Phillips from mid thirties with a Jewish background who with a twin sister Elizabeth Ada, only problem being that the sibs were born in 1884 so that doesn’t really fit in with your “about the same age as Jessie” agenda. Then there’s an Ada Phillips from the Adelaide Children’s Hospital with better credentials who heads off to London to further her nursing career in 1949 with a Trove reported send off. Given the scanty details provided I’m at a dead end but, if you were able to expand on the whys and warefores I might be able to make some headway.
Thanks for the updates John S. All the interest of mine about 128 Anzac Highway revolves around the second phone number. X2827. (and the occupants at the address in the build up). Whether Cowin was involved at the later SM 1948/9 stage is not contested by me at the moment. I have not seen anything leading up to 1945 that brings Cowin in early.
All the Tamam Shud issues solely revolve around 1945. And includes the murder of George Marshall.
In early July 1945 the coast watchers were on the look out for a large conventional ordinance aboard the HMS Duke of York when it was off loaded in Sydney and transferred to an LST. It was UK’s plan B and you probably already know it as part of the Manhattan Project as “LB” and that definitely doesn’t apply to “little boy”. It was so large that it needed the dock gantry cranes in Liverpool and Sydney to move it. So the action didn’t catch attention it was covered at both ends with “minor refit”.
The 1948 activity was to “out” all the players when including Army Medics, Light Horse and Venona.
But to find the proof hey?
Pat, I think it is the correct show, but all that seems to exist is the trailer as per your link, the whole ep seems gone, even in archives. We’ll just keep plodding along.
Pat, I think it is the correct show, but all that seems to exist is the trailer as per your link, the whole ep seems gone, even in archives. We’ll just keep plodding along.
Thanks for the updates John S.
All the interest of mine about 128 Anzac Highway revolves around the second phone number. X2827. (and the occupants at the address in the build up).
Whether Cowin was involved at the later SM 1948/9 stage is not contested by me at the moment. I have not seen anything leading up to 1945 that brings Cowin in early.
All the Tamam Shud issues solely revolve around 1945. And includes the murder of George Marshall.
. In early July 1945 the coast watchers were on the look out for a large conventional ordinance aboard the HMS Duke of York when it was off-loaded in Sydney and transferred to an LST.
It was UK’s plan B (as a back up to the US plan A) and you probably already know it in part of the Manhattan Project as “LB” and that definitely doesn’t mean “little boy”.
It was so large that it needed the dock gantry cranes in Liverpool and Sydney to move it. Just so the action didn’t catch attention it was covered at both ends with “minor refit” talk.
The 1948 activity was to “out” all the players including Army Medics, Light Horse and Venona, and to settle some old scores along the way.
Pat, I think it is the correct show, but all that seems to exist is the trailer as per your link, the whole ep seems gone, even in archives. We’ll just keep plodding along.
Thanks for the updates John S.
All the interest of mine about 128 Anzac Highway revolves around the second phone number. X2827. (and the occupants at the address in the build up).
John S, the second ROK number (X2827) was installed at the 128 address.
@ Alan H
The full episode
https://dai.ly/x8c9v9y
Alan H, here it is in its entirety:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8c9v9y
Alan H….I took the initiative to chase down the RAH nurse Ada Phillips who seemed to fit with your bookmaker George Phillip’s sister. Alas my Ada bn. 1923 was from Kadina, her siblings being Margaret, Jo and Tom, her father Gordon, as opposed to George’s dad Abraham Jacob; moreover she was born protestant which seems to give her a pass for 128 Anzac Hwy, Glendale. As for George Marshall, whose Potts Point address I visited recently, I agree there be strange vagaries in that case which to my thinking are suggestive of foul play within his family or associates. I don’t see any direct evidence that points to the Somerton Man case so I’ve put poor ‘Joseph’ on hold for now. One at a time is good fishing as they say!
It’s my belief that the investigators of the later incidents were wanting to talk to the nurses and got Jessi’s and Ada’s numbers from records and spoke to Jessi. But Ada was no longer at 128 Anzac.
Alan H…two choices pal, full or entirety take your pick. As for the X2827 phone number, it’s new to me but, the Herald rag of 23/7/49 says that along with the penciled (code) letters, several phone numbers were found on the code page.
Ha ha, good on ya Sanders, I do believe they were despatched at the same time but Pat has beaten me to it …. mine is redundant and void and may it be stricken from the record in its entirety. Carolyn Bilsborow has such a lovely voice for the narration, hey, very soothing …… she’s also in the Australian Story episodes re Somerton man, most excellent. Five star review from me.
Hey Poopins, good to hear from you. I love her voice too 😊
Alan H…in re the GB’s plan B, I’m not certain by any means, perhaps Alf Boxall could tell us if he were still around alas poor Yorick. I’d hazard a guess and say the oversized cargo seen aboard HMS Duke of York prior to her docking in Sydney in July ’45 may have had nothing at all to do with any Brit backup nuclear contraption (the Yanks had a spare). I’m laying odds it had more to do with mundane pomp & circumstance to do with the new Governor General’s comfort. Seems Prince ‘Harry’, Duke of Gloucester had arranged with the Admiralty to ship his private aircraft, an Avro York four engine brute to Orstraya in support of his upcoming beastly two year tour of duty in the colonies. Turns out he took delivery on 4th July at Wooloomooloo dock as part of US Independence Day celebrations aboard and had the monster reassembled by De Haviland works Bankstown. Zat sound about right mate. Gotta take care, this being an open fact based discussion site and all.
Hello, John S,
I’ve learnt that if receiving a contract to sign, the recipient should always make one alteration (even if the contract is perfect) as it causes the issuer to re-address the contents. So it’s good to enter into discussion as it has been here.
I was recently poleaxed here about the typewriter mechanic but couldn’t be bothered trying to reset an attitude, as it generally leads to problems.
However, here we are! The Rev R E Davis was a resident of Darwin as mentioned, but he definitely wasn’t the typewriter mechanic. Roy Edward Davis was the typewriter mechanic as I mentioned and he was posted to Darwin as a US Army employee as I said, but his census address never changed from Townsville till much later than SM. So I stand by my claim of the details I provided about R E Davis (the typewriter mechanic).
Now, have you checked out Ada Weronga Phillips (24/6/15-27-7-66) the daughter of Henry Morris Phillips?
And my website is still mostly on the money with more to be posted in due course.
It is my belief that a significant part of this case will be resolved by Easter (next) except for WHY.
PB Patron of the Illegitimate: for my part Doug Townsend’s sans recall of the HB ticket is more than enough to counter your even dated Tbt sans post script cover vis my intuitive lead post vis., 10.37pm 3rd inst. PS Sharon is ‘lol’ Leane on logic.
Alan H.. got the basics together in that H.M.P. who died in an auto wreck in ’24 was indeed dad to Ada Weronga and George Edward with a brother George as well and that threw me for a bit. The other problem being that we’ve now got us a shit load of spare George Edward Phillips, all of a similar age with big conks to contend with. Just one minor potential windfall to report in that one of them may have moved from the Helmsdale address to Farrer Rd. then Bickford Tce. circa. early 1940s, both being close by the 1948 X marks the spot death site as we’re well aware.
Thanks John S, and as long as the recipient stayed within the Glenelg area, we had someone who could easily make x2827 follow them if needed.
If the authority that has copyright over the x2827 (and they would reply to one of my many emails – I know they read this site) I will forward a link.
Now a confession – I have never tried to understand DNA matching except for someone publishing results. That said, would there be anyone to look into a match between Robin Thomson and William MacMahon Ball who was part of the “Eltham Enclave”? (Mac Ball 29/8/01 – 26/12/1986) His middle name is interesting, and he’s very easy to find. His activities are voluminous and his father-in-law was besties with Gen Sir John Monash (which made then non-besties with Gen Doug McArthur).
After a deal of chasing rabbits, I’m now satisfied that your George Phillips wasn’t a bookmaker at all, that being the profession of uncle George who had been at 128 Anzac Rd. forever and a day. Perhaps George Jr. and sister Ada had lived with dad’s brother after his demise but it is difficult to say for certain without further reliable evidence. In order to follow up we’ll need to know amongst other details, the basis for your belief that X2827 was connected to the Helmsdale address, how it links to our ROK and how does any of this fit in with George Marshall’s suspicious death.
Hello John S, as you described previously:- Pal, you should put up or shut up (or something to the same effect) and that is a fair enough concept. I entered this info in the hope that the INCORRECT public perception of this case wouldn’t gain anymore strength than it already has, and to keep the search ongoing till we get the CORRECT and truthful result to that same public.
1) The X2827 number:-
https://onsomertonbeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/IMG_2751.jpeg
https://onsomertonbeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/IMG_2750.jpeg
The above pics are from an actual “screenshot” and the information in them were created by a multimedia company (the one I’m trying to email) working for The History Channel (America). The show was screened under The History Channel (America) banner.
It is obviously a mark up as the typeface is not correct and the book itself is wrong, however, the number had to come from some source.
2) The tie between X2827 and 128 Anzac Highway, Helmsdale:-
https://onsomertonbeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Adelaide-dog-reqd-1.jpg (self explanatory)
I have further ties but this is enough.
3) The George Marshall component is to come, sorry.
4) Why the CYMS (and their affiliations) is relevant:-
https://onsomertonbeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/CYMS-Adelaide-2.jpg
I hope you take this in the good faith it was lodged, and with that, I will get back to the search and stop hogging the message box.
You’ve probably done this dance already, but
There’s various death and memorial notices for the Philips. George 1 August 1941 (Sisters Ada and Esther). There’s also an Ethel Philips d 1 Mar 1942 (who in one notice seems to have a male pronoun):
Trove or a volunteer has replaced the “his” to “her” (where the asterisks are) – but the original definitely says “his”):
PHILLIPS.—In loving memory of Ethel
Phillips, late ‘or 128 Anzac Highway.
Helmsdale. who peacefully passed away
on March 1. 1942.—Inserted by *her* sisters
Ada and Esther
Thanks Julian, and yes it seems to be one of the first notices that keeps coming up but it’s just a blip in their thinking.
I am aware that there is a prominent name in this group listed as a kiln worker which is a better option as it aligns with the stitching and thread in this case and is relevant in associated cases.
Julian: Ethel was George Phillips Snr’s younger sister….full stop
Alan H: you misinterpreted my ‘put up or shut up’ “…two choices pal…” meaning. I was actually refering sinsinctly (word play) to earlier responses to you from Pat & Poppins vis. the Bits & pieces (rotten tomatoes award) on line film link.
Alan H…I’d say I’m more up on facts and falacies pertaining to the George Marshall murder (SM side show) than most others familiar with the case. Should you have questions feel free to ask. eg., were you aware that apart from his book of ‘polms’ George seems to have been author of two biographies both falsely attributed to another. Sam Marshall who was living in Sydney at the time of George’s death, had earlier been convicted of wartime ration law breaches in Perth at a time when his sibling was employed as an investigating officer the prosecuting authority. There’s more..quite a bit more.
What is the interest in the dead Jewish bookmaker George Phillips?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131525350?searchTerm=%22george%20phillips%22
I know that number is supposed to be on the RoK but is the suggestion this was Carl’s bookie in Adelaide in early 1940 before he was married?
Alan, maybe I misunderstood the thread, bnut this is inparticular in response to: “… I have not seen anything leading up to 1945 that brings Cowin in early.”
I thought I originally got this info here, but I can’t find it. Cowin is linked to the address as early as Jun 1942:
“The subject for the next round of
debates was chosen, viz.: “That the
taxation scheme introduced by present
Federal Government is desirable.” The
date will be advised to branches by
the debates secretary, John Cowin, to
whom results must be forwarded at
No. 128 Anzac Highway, Helmsdale.”
That’s 3 months after Ethel’s death. And it connects to the CYMS quite directly. It’s also not Stan Cowin (who seems to have been at that address later), although Stan Cowin did have a son John…..
There is also (related to the same CYMS stuff that John is a John T Cowin – sometimes referred to as “Brother” and sometimes as “Mr” (It doesn’t seem to be a religious title – which is odd because in the Catholic sense it would typically be used as a religious title – but perhaps in a Men’s society…). Or maybe there’s just a lot of Cowins floating around.
In any event, their time at 128 Anzac Highway seems to be immediately after one another, and both are linked to the CYMS.
Not sure it’s relevant (I haven’t followed this angle very closely), but it seems to put the Cowins in the picture (at least in the Philips picture) before ’45…
Oh also I haven’t seen it mentioned but assumed it was part of the reason the Anzac Highway was interesting in the first place, the bus route would have gone right by that address. It’s worth remembering noone actually knows where SM got off the bus.
Alan H…had you waited a couple more days, you’d have had your ‘Missing Pieces’ request courtesy of FB’s Derek Abbott, one of the cast from memory. Coincidence or what?
Julian: the most likely setting down point for Somerton Man, as I have alluded to one or thrice before, would have to be Whyte St. cnr. Brighton Rd., via St. Leonards or Tarlton St. via Moseley Square depending on the route from town, alternating between the two. He would then be within just a short stroll to St. Judes cemetery, Somerton Sailing Club, Alvington CCH or else X marks the spot…I kid you not.
@Pat,
I explained your coffin observations to an Aussie ABC journalist. She said they did use a new coffin for the DNA sampling. Didn’t conclude anything about coffin 1. But she did find your observations interesting.
@ David Morgan
Thanks, much appreciated.
David Morgan,
Had you, Pat or your ABC journo bothered to look back to our extensive uplift coverage ‘youse’ would have got a full debrief on both the casket and original pine coffin (a big difference in size and fit too).
Got a strange theory of relativity connecting a Glenelg couple moving (later) from 399 Toorak Rd. Sth. Yarra to Bermagui Sth. Coast NSW 70’s 80’s era with some possible attempt to conceal their death notices. Mean anything to anyone.
Sparrow
Albatros
To those above, sorry for the confusion and the delay, I didn’t see this thread. The point of my original nomination about the second phone number was that it WAS (likely to be the previously unknown) SECOND PHONE NUMBER, provided by the History Channel USA. My interest in it was more aligned to the kiln worker, but the old man being a bookie wasn’t wasted. The W9048 was discussed at another place. I have no interest in Cowin or the bus timetables as the tickets relate to one half of the “LendLease” reps being Richard Valentine Keane (the former bus and tram union state secretary) and the other half was Air Marshall Wrigley (chewy). I will try to annunciate my texts more succinctly.
@JS,
I hope the “youse” is not some sort of confession. I tried to give my evidence to journos on Mr Youse but no-one took an interest. I am staying away from Lower Plenty for a while.
I just had a lot of circumstantial evidence of telescope with wooden tripod, knitting machine, wife teaching craft skills to men, Datsun with dodgy plates, later sex offender, involved in Youth programmes and video recording. An expert on Aussie phone numbers could only just get back to 1997 and I needed 1995 in Port Lincoln. But if the car with dodgy plates was so well thought out then the phone for the address could be a vacant property like 13 Morgan St which did have that same phone number – “at some time” before/after 1995. You could stick an answering machine in a vacant property and sell anything from anywhere.
The coffin story is interesting because:
1. the original was carried by 4 bookies not exactly strong guys but they showed no strain. The second by strong guys who struggled.
2. In the 1970 Isdal Woman case you had frail coppers who died shortly after carrying the coffin up icy steep steps. Yet they made it look easy.
3. I attended a funeral last week and again 4 70-year-old professional coffin carriers once again made it look easy. Whereas with my own relatives the weight was excruciatingly painful for fit healthy young people.
So a lot of smoke and mirrors with coffin carriers.
@Alan – are you saying the pocket contents was sending specific messages to people? I’ve heard speculation before along similar lines, but not linking specific things to specific people – it’s an interesting thought
Julian, (briefly) a senior officer from light horse took up the position of military adjutant for SA on Dec 1st 1948. He then advised govt that he would take leave. I list on another place the details but everything in his pocket and suitcase was part of the message from up high to “cut it out”!
Tickets-Senator RV Keane (Rail Bus and Tram Union) d 26Apr1946
Chewing gum-Air Marshall Wrigley (rushed out of UK/US as he was next assasination)
Half cigarette-half job done with Reginald Bickford then Wrigley.
Metal comb-John Comber Robertson
Plastic comb-Mrs JCR
Army Club packet-one time pad
7 kensitas cigarettes inside packet-Army Club infiltrated by Freeman (see another place)
Laundry marks-one time pad key
Rough sewing and thread card-(John) Russell Barbour surgeon medical experimentation. Teaching other experimenting doctors. That’s where they found the untraceable substance! 1934 coroners report.
Tie-Thomas Lawrence Keane supplied chemicals to doctors.
Pencils-Malcolm Anstice Rafferty draughtsman.
Scissors and knife-US silhouette artist and Staff Sergeant.
More descriptions at another place.
@alan H
The flaw in the number portability argument for George Philips ‘could be’
AI says:
Before the introduction of Local Number Portability (LNP) in 1999, people in Australia who moved home often had to change their landline telephone number. This was because the number was associated with a specific location or telephone exchange. With the introduction of LNP, customers were able to keep their existing phone numbers when they moved, making the process much more convenient. He would have to live in Anzac Highway or had written his code early in the 1940s?
Perhaps an expert knows better.
I was discussing phone numbers in Port Lincoln with an expert and numbers seemed to move in PL before 1999.