This page describes what can be inferred about the Voynich manuscript from its physical makeup. It summarizes information from several sources (perhaps most notably/notoriously my 2006 book The Curse of the Voynich), and to illustrate the various arguments includes reasonable colour images [derived from the Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library’s colour scans].
(1) The Folio Numbers Are Not Necessarily Correct
Water flows from the bath on f78v [below left] right under a separate bifolio before reappearing on f81r [below right]. These two pages must therefore have faced each other in the original page layout, and can only sensibly have appeared at the centre of a quire with consecutive folio numbers: and so the present (non-consecutive) folio numbers are plainly wrong.
Also highlighted with red squares in the above pair of images is some red paint contact transfer (going from right to left) that apparently happened while the manuscript was in its alpha [original] state. (They are not aligned perfectly because the manuscript was fully bound when scanned, leading to perspective distortion.)
(2) The Bifolios Are Not Necessarily The Right Way Up
If f78v and f81r originally sat at the centre of the quire (as shown above), what page originally preceded f78r (i.e. which page sat facing f78r, nearer the front of the quire)? If you try every permutation in the water section, I contend that you will find only that one fits perfectly: f84v. Moreover, the two-page layout across f84v [below left] and f78r [below right] uncannily echoes the two-page layout exhibited on f78v and f81r [above]. But really, what clinches the case that these pages did originally face each other is the unusual “pineapple”-like fruit at the top, which appears on both of these pages (even symmetrically mirroring each other in the top middle!), but nowhere else in the manuscript.
However, because f84v as currently bound appears right at the back of the quire, this means that the bifolio containing it was bound in back to front relative to its initial orientation (i.e. the spine of the bifolio was flipped over before it was bound in, so what was initially at the front of the bifolio ended up at the back), and hence that whole bifolio is now upside down.
What is particularly interesting about this visual symmetry between page layouts is that it implies that the drawings in the manuscript had originally been laid out not arbitrarily or randomly (as they now appear), but instead according to some kind of consistent design aesthetic. I take this as a strong sign that we should be looking in the Voynich Manuscript to reconstruct a sense of order and purpose that has been scrambled by historical happenstance.
(3) The Quire Numbers Are Not Necessarily Correct
If f84v (which has Q12’s quire number on its bottom right corner) originally preceded f78r, this implies that the quire numbers were added after the page order in Q12 had been scrambled (nobody would have placed a quire number in the middle of a quire). Furthermore, quire numbers (particularly higher ones such as Q19 and Q20) appear to have been added by later hands, so may well be unreliable for quite different reasons.
(4) The Bindings Are Not Necessarily Correct
Many years ago, John Grove pointed out that while the first wide sexfolio of Q9 had originally been bound between f67r1 [below centre] and f67r2 [below right] (you can clearly see the binding marks laid out flat on the page), it had subsequently been rebound between f68v [below left] and f67r1 [below centre] after the quire numbers had been added (and before the folio numbers had been added). The centre page [f67r1] was originally at the back of the quire (which is where the quire number would have been added), but after the subsequent binding the same page ended up at the front of the quire (which is where the folio number was added) – all of which is why it ended up with both foliation and a quire number on the same page.
Moreover, the circular drawing on f68v (“sun-face calendar”) very closely echoes the circular drawing on f67r1 (“moon-face calendar”): this gives powerful support to the idea that these two pages originally sat next to each other. Back in July 2002, John Grove wrote: “I’m beginning to thank that oaf for fouling up the numbering” – it is indeed true that these kind of mistakes help us to understand what happened to the VMs pre-1600 in a way that the archival evidence has so far been unable to do.
Furthermore, my suspicion is that there was a simple practical reason for what happened with these pages. In its original arrangement, this sexfolio had one page on one side of the binding and five pages on the other, which would have been somewhat impractical for handling. By rebinding it along a different boundary between pages, that oaf may well have helped to keep the manuscript intact – no bad thing, really.
(5) The Quires Are Not Necessarily In The Correct Order
I have argued that the two pharma quires (Q15 and Q19) appear to have had their order reversed, because the jar sequence seems to flow far more naturally from the end of Q19 to the pharma bifolio in Q15 than the order in which they now appear.
(6) The Quire Contents Are Not Necessarily Correct
If you compare f41v and f42r in Q6, you’ll notice markedly different handwriting – the first is tight, compact, slightly right-leaning while the second is gentle, open, and slightly left-leaning (though whether this implies different authors, or different quills and/or different inks and/or times is a separate matter). This would be consistent with the basic codicological inference that the manuscript’s bifolios have been shuffled largely at random.
As an alternative explanation, Glen Claston argues that the bifolios might plausibly have been deliberately shuffled by the author (perhaps later in life) to match some change in organizational plan (say, from alphabetical order to thematic order). However, because the two halves of each bifolio are stuck together, I would point out that you can’t really restructure codices to any significant degree unless you physically divide each bifolio, and there’s (as yet) no evidence that this happened here.
(7) The Paints And Colours Used Are Not Necessarily Original
There’s been a long and spirited debate about this one. The short version is simply this: a significant number of Voynich researchers have come to believe that paint was added in several waves, with a small set of washy (possibly organic?) paints added early, and a larger set of heavy (possibly inorganic?) paints added later. Critically, the heavy blue paint appears (in a good few places) to have transferred across to facing pages within the current binding order, and with a very distinctive (and unusual) drying pattern. To me, this clearly indicates that the paint was added after the pages had been bound and then contact transferred while still drying (though Glen Claston argues that some unknown bacterial mechanism may have caused them to transfer many years later in conjunction with localized water damage).
As further evidence to support the argument, I would point to the markedly different paints on the f84v and f78r pair [section (2) above] and on the f102v and f88r pair [section (5) above]. Really, it comes down a binary choice: you either have to accept that the codicological evidence points to several misbinding (non-original) owners, or you have to reject the whole lot of it, period.
All in all, Glen spent a long time utterly convinced (as was Prescott Currier, for the most part) that the current page order, quire numbering and page appearance we now see all strongly reflect the author’s intentions: of course, this position is entirely possible – but I have yet to see a single piece of codicological evidence that supports it.
(8) One Day, We’ll Reconstruct The Page Order (But Not This Week)
From (2)-(8) above, it should be reasonably clear that what we are looking at in the VMs is not the original page order, or even the original page state: and that even the (apparently 15th century hand) quire numbering is an unreliable guide to the ‘alpha’ state of the manuscript. Still, there are plenty of ways in which we might (in time) be able to reconstruct the original page order (multispectral scans, Raman spectroscopy, thickness mapping the vellum edges, DNA testing the vellum (!), etc). But as none of that is likely to happen anytime soon, all we can do is try not to base our arguments on the present colouring, order, orientation, grouping, foliation or quire numbering of any given pages, unless we have very specific reasons to believe they happen to be correct.
Currently, the only examples I know of likely original page adjacencies are:
- Faint ink / paint contact transfers from f2v to f3r appear to be original (see “The Curse of the Voynich”, pp. 65-67)
- Vellum flaws (see “The Curse of the Voynich”, pp. 53-56) suggest that f9-f10, f10-f15, f35-f36, and f37-f38 were originally neighbouring pages, and may well have all been a single quire in the order f35-f36-f9-f10-(centre)-f15-f16-f37-f38, possibly with the f28-f29 bifolio wrapped around them.
- The reconstructed order of Q9 and Q10 (see “The Curse of the Voynich”, pp. 57-61)
- The order of the zodiac pages, can only (from the way they have been bound) start from Pisces
- I argue (see “The Curse of the Voynich”, pp. 62-65) that the original page order for Q13 (the “water” section) was very probably f76-f77-f79-f84-f78-(centre)-f81-f75-f80-f82-f83.
- From the doodles and unreadable letters on the final page, I think there is good reason to believe that f116v was also the final page of the manuscript as it was originally laid out.
As far as quire grouping in general goes, I suspect that the Herbal pages Prescott Currier described as “Hand 2” originally were arranged in two separate quires (see “The Curse of the Voynich”, pp. 69-70), which I named “Quire F” (containing the current Q8), and “Quire E” (holding the other six “Hand 1” bifolios). But unfortunately this currently isn’t really a lot of help – sorry, I did try my best.
(9) How Can We Untie This Knot?
Basically, we would like to break down the writing into groups so that we can work out in what order the pages were originally intended to appear. Yet while the colour of the ink does vary through the manuscript (implying both multiple sessions and multiple sources of ink), the RGB scans we currently have are not really sufficient to separate them out.
The straightforward solution would be to carry out a calibrated multispectral scan of the manuscript, which should yield plenty of information to track and match inks and paints (and possibly even individual pieces of vellum). As long as we ensure that the range of wavelengths chosen produces useful information, this approach should open up an entirely new angle on the main page-ordering issue, as well as on corrections, emendations and other subtle codicological layering issues.
However: back in early 2006, when I asked the Beinecke’s curators for permission to do even a limited multispectral scan, they turned down my proposals. Perhaps they will change their minds some time soon (after all, “no” only ever means “no today”), but anybody wishing to propose this kind of thing should bear this in mind. Don’t get me wrong, the Beinecke’s RGB scans have been a tremendous asset – it is just that the next stage of physical inquiry now beckons.
A Raman spectroscopic investigation would enable a very different type of art historical analysis: finding out what type of physical materials were used for the very many distinctive individual paints would be a fascinating study in itself (albeit one probably revolving more around 16th century paint composition). However, it is worth noting the difficulties in interpretation thrown up by the Raman analysis of the Vinland Map (another famous Beinecke holding), as this will doubtless colour the curators’ decision here.
A microscopic analysis of the vellum (if it could be done in situ) might, as Glen Claston has suggested, reveal pollen particles trapped inside the vellum. This is another type of analysis to consider: and there may also be enough information present at the microscopic scale to help identify individual hides.
One other analytical approach would be to use a non-contact micrometer to draw up a precise thickness map along the edges of the herbal pages, and from that write some clever software to predict how the original sheets of vellum were folded and cut into quires (these values can be matched with the length of the pages and the shape of each bifolio). OK, it’s not very glamorous: but it’s a simple non-invasive approach which (I think) the Beinecke would be comfortable with (if they think you are sufficiently credible).
(Really, I think any of the above would be the basis of a good student project – please email me if you would like advice about structuring or presenting any proposal to the Beinecke along these general lines.)
Nick, I’m just now getting around to this discussion (after noticing/noting the haphazard-seeming sequence of the bathing folios).
Would it not be possible for you and/or your buddies to scan each and every folio/page (in large-print/and color) and rearrange the pages/foldouts/folios to what would appear to be the original layout/binding sequences? I’ve gone through several ink cartidges (color & black) trying to reassemble the sequences of the water plants, bathing beauties, mushroom fantasy/fairy tales and the correlations possibly being made with the Venetian/Genoese trader conflicts…..? I hope you’ve been following Tom Spandes and my contributions to your fascinating webblog.
My offer to proofread your book sequel still stands. (I can snailmail to you my full email address, if you are in need of proofreading assistance.) I’ll check back on this page in a week or so.
bd
Nick, I keep miskeying and disconnecting, so wiki a couple of these refs (if you haven’t already done ref/research ad nauseum):
wikipedia: Hortus conclusus
2nd ref: medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Palladius.html
If second ref is incomplete, try ref: Medieval Sourcebook:
Palladius:
On Husbandry, c. 350
I’m referring these because of an oddity which appears as base of Beinecke’s print ID#1006223: That which appears to me to be a wall of bramble…..
bd
The voynich was written in ancient script by leanardo devinci. His knowledge is because of his DNA, he was an orchestrated human being. When he was young he had flow of his ancient knowledge he accessed as some of us do. Genetic engineering has been at the foothills of every single part of our origins. He was an updated version and I hope I am related! Soon humans will understand. Your part of a triptych. First, god animal mix. Then god- animal with neanderthal/Bigfoot. Makes human. Don’t take my word for it. Research yourself.
God can also be researched under the title ‘alien’ which is really funny because we were the last on the scene which would make us alien! Oh and by the way, people migrated from the pyramids. The DNA machines which doubled on the opposite energy to assist in travel through stars. Have fun figuring that one out and for goodness sake back up your computer before you research, can have damaging effects. As for the codex, homecoming time!
I wonder, if anyone came across f58r/v. In fact we can see here some sort of order 6-point star, 7-point star, 8-point star, which would be a peculiar way to indicate some order, but who knows. In the VIB information browser the number of points of the last star is miscalculated. On top of the page space has been left for some ornament, maybe a design of a naked woman like elsewhere in the MS ? I don’t think about an ornamental capital like the VIB information browser does. On the next page a 6-point star is repeated but without space for a design. The other paragraphs miss a star like on the preceding page. A matter of question is, if this folio belongs to the star pages at the end of the book (quire 20), which misses some pages.
Additionally. According to the VIB Information browser the stars on 68r1 and f68r2 have placed at random within a circular outline. However the central star on f68r1 is clearly visible and appears to have been rounded by three circles of stars. Similarly on f68r2. F68r3 shows some order. Counting clockwise from 10.00 one find 1 star with a cloud of 7 stars (Pleiades), 2 stars (Gemini ?), 3 stars and 4 stars, each with its name. The Pleiades are in the Zodiac sign of Taurus. Is it by accident that the EVA transcription reads here ‘doaro’ ?
Voynich Manuscript regards how to grow tiny people. A God given gift, to allow us To create and watch grow, children that are not of blood lineage yet that of a plants’. The plant (after being pollinated and sexed) and cross bred can and will grow mini beings.
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Nick,
Just checking to see whether I should have credited anything here in writing my series on the manuscript’s codicology and palaeography.
It looks as if our treatments are complementary rather than coincident – which is nice.
Just btw, since I don’t presume you or your readers will necessarily see the posts, the physical specs do agree with Nick’s theory that the work we now have was probably manufactured in Northern Italy. I do not find that I can agree with the idea that the ‘hand’ is Italian, or humanist, or indeed even a Latin hand of the early fifteenth century. On that score, and on the work’s general presentation (e.g. image and text apparently included by the same person – not a particularly Latin habit; and on the lack of evidence for ruling-out etc., the weight of evidence is more in favour of Panofsky’s first assessement i.e. southern Jewish.
Logical conclusion appears to me that like a number of other works brought to Nth Italy by Jewish owners in the early fifteenth century, the content of our ms was too.
Anyway, just thought you and readers might like to know that your work on the finer details of the manuscript’s disordered state still stands as far as I’m concerned.
Cheers
PLEASE READ THIS:
The Voynich, if studied closely, contains a LOT of words with this in the beginning:
“qo” and seeing as the most use letters of the English alphabet are E, T, C, etc. (pardon the pun right there) it stands to reason that the “qo” are two ‘letters’ fused into one. Also notable are the constant o’P’ symbols, maybe another form of the qo letter.
Also, about the fruits:
Strawberries slightly resemble raspberries by the seeds, and the sepals are perfect. However, something concerns me about the color of the “water” and the pictured texture: what if everyone is wrong and really the water is a type of lily which can hold the above amount of naked women? It could also be a type of condensed algae floating in a small pool, explaining why the lower limbs of the women seem to be cut in half, however they are “floating” or held above the water, and the “fruits” are harvesting areas held underwater to collect algae, which is then emptied through tubes/funnels into a bath which can hold people at the top, as a type of sensory-deprivation mix, which allows the user to float, keeping their head above the water, but resisting the force of gravity.
It seems as though the points of each star indicate something. It was previously mentioned that each star consists of 6/7/8 points. All the people in the images are pointing to the stars as well. I feel like the key is in the images.
Iam going to show René Zandbergen how the voynich manuscript was constructed :the structure of the VMS language .I think from 2004 or before that he still struggling to find the key . i donot want him to leave this world without knowing about it . I will only explain in a video few issue concerning language to give a chance for new start . for the date place and author it will come later .
we already sent to Rene zandbergan and cyphermisteries a video to see .
… hoping this is the right thread.
Are the chances of the manuscript being written by its author, or dictated to a scribe, or copied by a scribe all about the same?
Petebowes: from my point of view, the chances are strongly shifted toward its having been copied by a scribe, probably from wax tablets.
What are the chances (again) of the marginalia belonging to him?
Petebowes: that’s a really difficult question. :-/
There is a history of such actions, medieval scribes adding personal notes to the manuscripts they were copying. There are also accounts of scribes substituting better-known words for ones they could not understand.
Google has its rewards.
Petebowes: Voynich research also has a very long history of people substituting words for ones they could not understand.
To be fair, the Voynich nutters are even worse. Though… not by much, it has to be said.
No, I’m not talking about researchers, rather the person responsible for the original script.
petebowes: good luck finding willing ears.
Indeed.
But look!
A couple of taps and Google presented me with this little jewel.
In the Book of the Dun Cow*, the Irish scribe twice scribbled, Probatio pennae Maelmuiri.
These two brief notes probably reflect his attempts to test a newly cut pen to make sure it worked and the ink flowed properly.
*Lebhor na Huidre, a medieval century Irish manuscript.
Now there’s a really difficult question very easily answered.
Thank you, it’s been a pleasure.
Petebowes: if only the text on f116v were as clear cut as that. *sigh*
Better you than me Gunga Din, but then again, if the overwriter was substituting a word for a similar word, might there be two words meaning the same thing visible?
How long has it been since you stripped a dodgy code?
Petebowes: the only place in the Voynich Manuscript where there is arguably any “overwriting” is f116v, and that’s a corner I’ve been fighting for over a decade now. :-/
A couple of weeks, how about yourself?
About twenty years ago when I walked into a dark room inhabited by an acid muncher collecting badly protected source codes … I wanted to question his overtime.
…..And….’It was din! din! din!, &c! &c! &c!, argumentum ad infinitum ad nauseam’. Where are these marginal diversions leading us FCS.
John: …on the bright side, the view from your glass house is truly phenomenal. 🙂
Letters seem like written by an Arabian writer. Like some sort of translation that did not end up too well maybe…Who knows…
Hi! I just came to this article, and I’m not sure if my question belongs here, but has anyone noticed that the first letter on every page is one of three types? I downloaded the file from Beinecke, and found that aside from the “P with ears” being the most varied/illuminated, next comes the parallel lines with one curl, and next comes a lowercase “o” in frequency. It appears to be systematic. Is it possible that this could assist in identifying which pages were originally next to one another?
Bi-folios 49-56, 57-66, and 58-65 have, in all likelihood, been bent backwards (through the middle) during the rebinding of the original manuscript, the initial order being 56-49, 66-57, and 65-58. Notice how the numbered text on 49-verso matches the one on 66-recto, and the circular diagram on 57-verso is now adjacent to the astronomical section. The batch formed by bi-folios 87-90, 93-96, and 94-95 precedes the next-to-last herbal quire.
the original page order for Q13 (the “water” section) was very probably f76-f77-f79-f84-f78-(centre)-f81-f75-f80-f82-f83.
Close, but not quite; rather, the quire is to be split into two (sub)quires, the first consisting of bi-folios 76-83, 77-82, and 79-80; and the other of bi-folios 84-75, and 78-81. Notice that, both in this scenario, as well as in the current page arrangement, folios 83 and 84 are consecutive, which is what probably prompted the whole debacle in the first place.
MS408 pages are numbered sequentially. Page numbers are placed at the beginning or at the end of the first line of text. If there are figures on the page, page numbers can be placed in the margins next to the figure. Low resolution of the manuscript photos and distortion around the edges of the photo make it impossible to read the page numbers.
Does the library plan to provide scans or photographs of manuscript pages at a resolution greater than 1200 dpi?
Mark: I’d be interested to know why you think there’s a numbering system there, particularly as there is strong – I would say overwhelmingly strong – evidence indicating that many (if not indeed most) pages have ended up bound out of order.
My best understanding is the Beinecke has no plans to do higher resolution scans any time soon. Having said that, if there is a specific feature you genuinely need a very close-up scan of (and can argue the case well), the curators have been known to be supportive.
nickpelling!
Folios are indeed folded and bound in random order. Some research regarding the original binding is given by me in the Decoding The Voynich Manuscript group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/628027000717428/
Beyneke curators are not willing to provide support for high resolution of the manuscript pages, even for money. They motivated earlier by technical difficulty. They are currently hampered in this by the covid epidemic and a workload on other topics.
Therefore, there is a strong feeling that the translation of the manuscript is not of much interest to the library.
But somehow, in principle, we have to solve this problem. What other ways are there to get high-resolution photo folios?
Mark: I’ve been trying to reconstruct the original bifolio ordering since about 2004 myself, so I hear you loud and clear. 🙂
But I still don’t know why you think there’s some kind of page numbering thing going on.
nickpelling!
The translation of the gathering marks is a little easier. The marks are written in large print. The difficulty is that the marks were redrawn by an intruder on other sheets.
The numbering is on the pages themselves, but in coded form.
For example, on Folio 1r the page number is in the upper right corner. The number is written in bold red ink. The lettering is similar to the Arabic numeral 2.
But the smeared text of the ligature makes it impossible to accurately reconstruct the page number.
Mark: you could well appreciate that a top institutional library like Beinecke might be less inclined to communicate with some uncaring type choosing to identifying them in such insultingly common vernacular, namely BEYNEKE.
john sanders
I do not understand your phrase “some uncaring type choosing to identifying them in such insultingly common vernacular, namely BEYNEKE”.
If you are addressing me and want to insult me, I have not sent inquiries to the library, including “BEYNEKE”.
I am aware of the library’s responses from other members of groups and forums.
Mark: no insult was intended to you, nor anyone else, just a little leg pulling on the basis of your misspelling of Beinecke to get a laugh that’s all. I did assume from your post of 23rd inst. that you had contacted them and received a put down but, alas I was mistaken. So sorry that you were not at all impressed with my jest at your expence. I will not offend again, God’s Honour.
john sanders!
1. If the word “BEYNEKE” has caused you physical or mental injury or damage to your business reputation, please contact the authors of the automatic translator program so that appropriate corrections can be made to the linguistic dictionaries when translating into English.
2. If you are really affiliated with the library, then instead of being snide, please help the group where I am an administrator by posting the manuscript files in their original form (without distortion by the Photoshop graphic editor).
Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Why was my post about the automatic translator misrepresenting the name of the library deleted?
If you take responsibility for deleting posts, delete all my posts, including the far-fetched accusations against me.
If you want intrigue, I have scans of all the posts, including my deleted post.
Mark: I didn’t “delete” your post – all comments here have to be checked before they go up, in case they accidentally disclose the secret Tibetan location of the Illuminati, i.e. Seduo Gangqian Island.
nickpelling!
Thank you for your prompt reply.
I have always thought and continue to think of you as a true gentleman.
Ant and queen. I’m a gentleman too.
Joseph Zlatodej Prof: I was once a gentleman and scholar too. These days I tend to sign off with a down toned ‘Gentleman Scholar’, this showing respect for ants and queens of lower credentials and esteem…(just joking Mark).
@ John. You’re a gentleman all the time. Everyone must know that. And you also have a great overview of everything that is important. You know a lot. And that’s good.
google translator ….. free.
Otherwise, as Mark wrote the word: BEYNEKE. So it can be seen that he learns substitution. (number 1 = a, i, j, q, y). Letter C deleted. to show the substitution of the number 3. (I’ve already written about that). So the result is: Beinecke.
My new post is about numbering pages and notebooks.
https://vladimirdulov blogspot com/2022/06/page-numbering-was-done-by-at-least-4.html
Nick. You promised to comment on the previous post in my blog about Q13 with a separate blog.
Vladimir –
it might be a good idea to put the complete link to your post here.
My search engine needed several tries to find you, even when the full address was typed in.
On one point, I must say that your dates are out by a century.
You say:
” The old style of Arabic numerals was gradually replaced by the new style over time, as a result of the death of the old scribes”.. from the middle of the fifteenth century”
That’s simply wrong.
The ‘4’ shape for the numeral was being used by people in the Latin west by the mid *fourteenth* century, but first by Italians in Italy and in Avignon and also by at least one Jewish cartographer in Majorca. I think a study of astronomical instruments would be enlightening too.
Last year I wrote a series of posts on the subject of the ‘4’-shape, revisiting and updating the old ideas in d’Imperio,
I traced the introduction of that ‘4’ shape, following its dissemination and saw it in use in Majorca in 1375 and in other regions where Italians were engaged in commerce by sea.
I noted how a ‘4’-shaped glyph in Voynichese is consistent with information we have about the vellum’s date range (1405-1438), with the date for other images in Italian manuscripts from that time, and of course with the opinion of informed bookmen (per Kraus’ assistant) and more.
What the evidence points to, very strongly, is the manuscript’s having been written (inscribed, not composed) in Italy before 1440.
Germany didn’t use such a form until (as you say) very much later.
I wrote several posts for series, including one which was four-posts-in-one. Following the history of the Hindu-Arabic numerals’ use in the west, and showing how the commercial-maths schools in north Africa and in Italy, link directly to figures – including Alberti- who are known to have had an interest in ciphering.
I concluded that series by saying,
“The early occurrence for that ‘4’ shape as numeral; the pattern of its subsequent dissemination, and the lines of diaspora from the south-western Mediterranean during the last decades of the fourteenth century, allow us to see how those those separate evaluations need not be supposed incompatible with the manuscript’s internal evidence, given the historical events, lines of regular travel and population movement over the period from c.1350-c.1430 AD. I have supposed … that whoever wrote the Voynich glyph had a hand accustomed to writing the numeral so”…. The same events promise to shed light on the manuscript’s codicology, but I won’t elaborate on that point”.
You don’t say what sources you used, so I suppose you haven’t read that research – pity, because it showed that the information in d’Imperio, and in her source (Hill) are badly out of date.
What is true for the ‘4’ shape might be true for others, too.
May I ask what the yellow boxes are about on the plant-diagrams?
Diana!
I read your posts about 4. But the old style is in the set 4, 5, 7. Therefore, I write that the new style begins to replace the old one in the middle of the 15th century.
The yellow squares indicate that the drawing on page f95v1 could not have left such an imprint on f96r, nor would any other plant. Therefore, I believe that only a drawing from a cut sheet could leave an imprint. At the same time, it was necessary to re-write 96 (the only digit of this hand)
vladimirdulov.blogspot.com/2022/06/page-numbering-was-done-by-at-least-4.html
Perhaps I have misunderstood.
But it is not always an imprint from across the street.
F93r and f93v both show the back side shining through. Either the ink was so thin that it went through the vellum, or the book was exposed to moisture for a long time, so that it could migrate through.
In 96v and 96r it seems to be the same.
Agasul
Where did the prints on the f96r, highlighted by the yellow box, come from?
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgSDhz8jOx_ybkHzHMUO56RC9andsDOWy4vSzENKqtO_VCwg48_-qbSy34PmGsdjVbDzyiQ7OwHIVAD159Egh7g75yE3CpESjf6AH3TsRP0cOyXziWwJANzA1yCkA36C5tf3bjw2M2hMrBss40VPQ8pgUtVYxOfS0mnBkEa-Jdr5w1HvrGSQvhKYmAdhg/s825/%D0%9E%D1%82%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA%20%D1%81%20%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%20%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%2096.jpg
The way it looks to me is from the arrow blade on the back. But it could also be both. Back and opposite.
You can see it better without the yellow box. Both leaves (stems) possibly run in the same place.
Agsul & Vladmir D: you’ll note the very same image bleed through effect from f1v to f1r, most probably due to harsh chemicals used in a first attempt to remove the original Tepenecz sign-off. Alternative means was then made to conceal the still feintly discernable signature by covering up the resultant blurring with placement of an after market giant root ball beneath the original plant on the obverse f1v page. This method was deemed adequate and in as much proved sufficient to avoid close scrutiny by unwary Voynicheros and their like for the next century.
Vladimir,
I have enormous respect for your work as a codicologist and do not mean to imply that I have the training or experience to offer commentary of my own. My concern is rather with the image given of the historical situation, and uncertainty about the range over which your comparative examples were taken.
Your post seems to give an impression that there was ‘an old style’ and ‘a new style’ which was taught in all schools and that the new style then simply replaced the old style everywhere as older writers died out. A bit like what happened as 1950s copperplate was replaced by 1970s cursive in some western schools.
But that model of replacement implies some centralised school system which decrees that one style shall replace another, and that everywhere in Europe the ‘old’ numerals would give way to the ‘new’ within one generation. There was no such centralised body. The commercial-maths school I described, and which was established in Italy was a privately-run centre, taught by one person. If you or your parent were merchants, you might both go there and learn the new sort of maths, and script, together, from that teacher.
Even Hill’s badly biased data includes one Spanish manuscript from the 10th C in which the form for ‘7’ is what we’d call ‘modern’ but which took another five centuries before it was used in Italy, and longer still before used in, say, Germany.
It’s also from the south, as I’ve said, that the modern sort of ‘4’ is taken north; again first by the Italian commercial community and only later by more academic works. And once again, Germany follows much later. As much as three generations later.
I suppose what I’m asking is whether you’ve considered that the variation in hands might not be a result of different age, but of different backgrounds?
This is not a change in emphasis to old age, but different people.
I find Q9 to be foreign to vms bookblock. To do this, I have 4 arguments, two of which I have already given in my blog. This is the presence of worm holes on the outer contour, which is uncharacteristic for the middle of the book, and the absence of a hole for attaching to the “captal” only in this Quire (the rest is later in the blog). And what a coincidence! It is from this Quire that the hand changes.
Vladimir – thank you for the reply.
It is good to see that these days most people understand that the manuscript, as we now have it, is a compilation, not an autograph. Difficult to believe, these days, what an uproar it caused if one said so just a few years ago.
The iconographic evidence also suggests that the source for matter in Q9 is distinct from that in other sections of the ms. Our difficulty, I think, is defining when the inscribed quires had become a book-block. As you know, stacks of unbound quires could remain in that state for decades, or even centuries, before being bound. A former Vatican librarian once wrote a paper on techniques used to deter worms – perhaps you know it.
nickpelling
what do you know about seduo gangquian island
Tom: that’s a name I don’t recognise, and I can’t see it on a map. Is it known by other (perhaps older) names?
You previously wrote.. “Seduo Gangqian Island, the secret Tibetan location of the illuminati”.. Do you remember writing this…
nickpelling
on January 26, 2022 at 5:37 pm said:
Mark: I didn’t “delete” your post – all comments here have to be checked before they go up, in case they accidentally disclose the secret Tibetan location of the Illuminati, i.e. Seduo Gangqian Island.
Here is the location..
https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@31.5961877,88.6742081,20494m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x30635ff06b92b791:0xd78c4fa1854213a6!8m2!3d20.593684!4d78.96288!16zL20vMDNyazA?entry=ttu
Hi Nick, I believe I have identified a sequence of images beginning on f79v and ending on f79r. The problem is, of course, the pages are backward assuming the Voynich is to read left to right. With your knowledge of the VMS binding and disorganization, would that be possible?
Barb: though it’s a bit of a stretch, it’s possible. The pages (page sides) could have been copied out of order (deliberately or accidentally), or they could have been copied from a source document where they appeared out of order.
Sorry, I’ve just been looking at it again, and I’m sure this wouldn’t be possible, but would there be any way to fold the quire so that 79v would be followed by 83r then either directly or with a page in between to 79r? Without disrupting the pattern you’ve already established? I have no spatial sense and can’t wrap my head around it. For reference, I believe I’ve identified from alchemy the Nigrido phase, the Albido phase and the Rubedo phase. There may or may not be a Citrinidas phase page – I don’t think so – but regardless with the pages right now they’re Rubedo, Nigrido and a number of pages later, Albido! Completely out of order.
Oh, just saw you had answered me for the first question. Thank you so much! Does the second question seem even more of a stretch?
Great work by the way!
Barb: f79r and f79v are the front (recto) and back (verso) of the same folio, so you wouldn’t normally expect to find a separate page in between them. But this is the Voynich, so never say never etc.
The three pages you highlight are certainly much debated (e.g. whether f79v might be something to do with the Order of the Golden Fleece, etc), albeit inconclusively. So there’s all to play for there, so to speak.
The interesting thing would be if you had a particular alchemical document in mind, i.e. that illustrated the various alchemical phases in a way that suggests a link with these pages.
I remember early on in my Voynich research I looked at a number of books and resources on alchemy (e.g. Adam McLean?), but failed to unearth (or indeed unair, unwater, or unfire) any kind of systematic link.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the page order, the big prize is something that links outwards from the Voynich to a different text. So keep looking!
Thanks Nick. Unfortunately not just one but many, because almost all alchemists were describing and illustrating the four stages in their work. I took Barbara Obrist’s Visualization in Medieval Alchemy to heart though. Before Aurora Consurgens and Book of the Holy Trinity, scribed or written in the same time period as the VMS, there were practically no illustrated alchemical books, just some with diagrams, equipment, etc. If alchemy were in the VMS,I reasoned it would have various themes and allegories to work with from text only sources, but the illustrations and symbols would not look the same as we were used to seeing. And so it has proved. As long as you can see the nymphs as substances, rather like the red king and white queen are Sulphur and Mercury in alchemy, ignoring nymph gender, and take form from their narratives, context or accoutrements, the narratives are sometimes symbolic but often startlingly clear.
The one page definitely linked to one text (but which version?) is f79r, which I believe is Ovid’s tale of Hermaphroditus, a ubiquitous tale with likely the most common alchemical figure of all, the Hermaphrodite. The tale happens also to follow the Rubedo last steps in alchemy, which is why it was so important to alchemists, I suspect.
But this is your codicology page so I digress! It would be helpful if the stages were in order, particularly if f83r followed on the heels of f79v, but it’s not essential. I thought perhaps f79r/79v might have been bound on the wrong side of the page, and f83r closer in sequence to the others, but I will work on without that kind of corroboration.
Thank you again for your assistance! It’s very generous of you.
I have some AI software that can increase resolution and clean up lines for those asking for higher resolution specimens. Not sure if it would suit anyone’s needs but happy to give it a try. I’ve used it with sign building, and have had success enlarging graphics the size of a business card to be placed on billboards and tractor trailers.