In some ways, it feels as though we already (nearly) met Carl Webb several times over the last decade – in Melbourne’s Gilded Age of Baccarat schools, in the interstate car black market, in peering into the working class evidential void in Trove.
Maybe we can now each spin our own tidy yarn tying together personally preferred loose threads: down on his uppers… in Adelaide to see a man about a car… having a pasty in the All Night Cafe… having what look like heart pains… getting misdiagnosed & being given the wrong meds… accidentally overdosing… being dumped on Somerton Beach by those who would rather not be linked to him (dead or alive).
That’s broadly the kind of thing I’ve punted here before, though arguably more to provoke asking better questions than as ‘The One True Narrative’. And I’m sure everyone has their own tweaked version of it that works for them.
But… by doing this, I think we’d be dancing around some sinkhole-sized gaps, not in our preferred story (which will always sound nice to our own ears), but in Carl Webb’s actual story.
What was the American connection? Had Webb travelled to America? Did Doff give Webb the Rubaiyat? Did Webb have a replacement partner lined up? Might he actually have been gay, and married Doff to hide his sexuality? What instruments did he make – odometer, violin, or what? What caused the high level of lead in his hair? Did he have a police record?
And that’s just the easy stuff, alas. (Like Tolkien’s road, the list goes ever on.)
If we’re lucky – i.e. lucky beyond words – there’s a 100-year-old person somewhere out there who still remembers Charlie Webb, and can tell us how he lived (though perhaps not how he died).
Though maybe sending a nice letter to lots of Melbourne nursing homes can wait until we have a photo of him (you don’t want to fire that gun twice).
In the end, though, I don’t honestly believe we’ll ever be able to satisfactorily answer every big question about Webb. History is good, but it’s not that good.
And so I suspect we’ll still – in almost all scenarios – most likely be forever presented with a rolling ‘beauty contest’ of overlapping Charlie Webbs, each variant carefully curated and lovingly tweaked to match each new micro-revelation as it emerges. Look at me, no meeee.
Yet the rarely acknowledged reality is that, as in the film “Cabaret”, life isn’t beautiful: at best, everyone’s life is a work in progress. Carl Webb doubtless thought he had plenty of hands yet to play, but The Great Dealer closed his Baccarat shoe earlier than expected.
And so I think everyone should beware narrative beauty: historical beauty is often a sign of contrived neatness, superficiality, selection bias, over-finessing, voids, deletions, airbrushing.
A good history of the actual Somerton Man would instead present his difficulties and his struggle in a deeply humane and accepting way – true, in other words. But right now that’s not ready to be written, not by a long way.
And I can’t help but wonder if it will ever get written.
An exquisitely written and poignant foreshadowing of what might come to pass.
One interesting item – ‘the day before he officially arrived’ in Somerton, someone left a large radio-controlled plane near a paddock in Somerton Park.
That joins together three aspects of Carl Webb – electrical engineering, instrument making and horses.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22705734?searchTerm=%22mr%20read%20fl1408%22
David Morgan: arguably the best news in years. Wonder how come it wasn’t picked up before…something to work with apropose locality and dateline relevance.
Peteb: still wondering about the fresh abrasions on SM’s knucles? You need look no further than his having come by them from prop starting his model aeroplane that somehow got away from him near the beach on the day of his visit. No need to question that wisdom.
David Morgan: that looked like fun, so I had a quick look…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/140350848
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248351027
Rena Helms-Park: I guess we’ll have to see how it all plays out from here…
Peteb: I’m sure there’s no need to remind that the distinctive black and red trim of the found model aircraft would seem to replicate those of Manfred Richtofen’s (later Goring’s) Fying Circus.
@NP: Tend to agree with your original post. TBH even if someone could quite conclusively make a narrative with the smallest holes possible there’ll be those that aren’t satisfied who will insist it’s all a cover up for whatever stories they prefer
The Somerton Park that played host to the model plane is presumably the park in Somerton, Victoria (just north of Melbourne), the piece being from the Melbourne Argus. There are multiple Somertons in Australia. When I first heard about this case it peaked my interest because I thought it pertained to Somerton in Somerset, England, which is not too far from me. I did however spend some time in Oz in the early to mid ’80s and on a brief visit to Adelaide in 1985 took the obligatory tram ride to Glenelg from where I walked down the Esplanade to Somerton Park, so I have retained a curiosity about this baffling mystery. And yes, one should be sceptical about narrative beauty, wholeness and purity, and indeed the unreliable narrators who would have us believe that everything can be tied up into neat parcels.
..the owner (model plane) is asked to ring Mr. Reed on FL 1408. A quick scan of a single page of the ’47 Adelaide directory shows only an LF prefix which could be a Keswick Military HQ number where Asio was soon to set up shop with Mr. Read as it’s named first Diector.
….a sad omission on Jerry Somerton’s part was ultimately to blame for his OQ-3 target airplane coming to grief after flying beyond normal base control range. Reason for the accidental downing was due to a non attached vital piece kit in the form of an ingenious long range directional device or clip on comb antenna, later recovered from a pocket of the dead man’s Stamina trousers.
‘ … He’s crazy Lou, he builds toy airplanes …’
NP: can’t for the life of me find your Cabaret quote ‘life isn’t beautiful’ but it brings to mind Monty Python’s ‘Life’s a piece of shit, if you look at it’ from Life of Brian, or another from a long forgotten PM Malcolm ‘pants down’ Frazer who said “Life wasn’t meant to be easy” after a four day bout of constipation at The Lodge….Did you know that your? Kev D’Arcy had strong links, not only to Melbourne but also Ballarat and Boorte, half way between there and Mildura.
If indeed Webb’s family agreed to dissociate themselves from him, as did his wife, and that being the reason for the lack of any response from their descendants to the current uproar about his past, perhaps there is something there that needs to be hidden.
Peteb: OK then, try this on for size. Jerry had a potentially lucrative life policy that would be voided in the event of death by suicide. So in order to collect on it, the beneficiaries, nominally family members, kept their sure knowledge of his self destruction to themselves, waited the mandatory period to enable sesquestration then and cashed in. That sounds feasible to my non legal mind.
Going by the latest on Derek’s FB page the whole team including those from all English speaking countries (rings a bell) are still in a celebratory mood. Truth be known the man himself and Colleen his enabler, are probably shitting bricks, praying fervently that their ace in the hole multiple leads ruse holds. So far they appear to be on solid ground but that can only be maintained for as long as it takes for one of our more astute and intuitive skeptics to find a chink in their armour. Then the house of cards will come a’tumblin’ down.
Well said, Nick. It seems to me there are three main “mysteries” remaining to be solved:
1. The code, obviously, since we are all interested in ciphers here. The news article notes “Abbott had joked several years ago they were the first letters of horse names, and the divorce papers reveal Webb was fond of horse racing and betting”. The connection with horse racing seems plausible, but simply noting the first letters of horses’ names would hardly be a useful system. I believe there was some discussion on this blog a while ago (I can’t find it now) of more complicated horse-betting codes published in newspapers of the time. If it wer possible to fit Webb’s jottings to a specific horse-racing code that was in use at the time, we could put this code to bed once and for all. If not, we may have to explore other possibilities.
– Why was the Thompsons’ phone number in the book? For a long time, the whole world seemed certain that Jessica Thompson was the key to this mystery. Her phone number was in the book, the body was found just a few blocks from her house, and she seemed so mysterious and evasive, hinting at Russian connections, etc. Now that Carl Webb has been unmasked, there’s little reason to think Jessica has anything to do with it. But still, that phone number remains… Did Webb purchase the book second-hand while in Adelaide? Is it all just a coincidence? Or did Carl Webb have some connection to Jessica Thompson (perhaps through Mr Keane – see below)?
– Information about the life of Carl Webb. What was his occupation? What did he do before marrying Doff in 1941? It seems we know nothing about his movements in the 1930s. Did he always live in Melbourne? Why was he never identified? Weren’t his family and friends looking for him for all this time?
In my view, those are the most fascinating questions still remaining. By the way, some preliminary poking around has led me to some interesting coincidences that I’m sure people have already noted.
(1) Gerald T. Keane and the Russian ballet. A Trove article from 20 July 1940 notes: “Mr. Gerald Keane, son of Mrs. Keane, of Manifold street, who has been on the staff of J. C. Williamson for over twenty years was in Camperdown on Thursday, on a visit to his people. Mr. Keane has had an extended trip with the Russian ballet, visiting Adelaide, and then Brisbane.” This is indeed Carl Webb’s brother-in-law Gerald T. Keane, born 1889 died 1960, son of Emma Keane of Manifold street. It may be interesting to dig a little deeper into Gerald’s time with the Russian ballet in Adelaide in 1940.
(2) Webb was also the name of the Salvation Army captain who presided over the Somerton man’s first funeral. It’s rather fitting that Carl Webb was eulogised by someone who may have been a distant relative.
My theory is that Carl Webb does have a family. But for some reason they just didn’t want to know. For all we know they could have been destroying records and falsifying things to go in multiple directions. They certainly have had enough time to do it prior to him being identified. I think the best bet at the moment is South Australia Police. But are they really going to dig deep or formally name him, re-bury him and move on. I had been working away in the background by compiling a spreadsheet of commenters names and locations. I’m also quite a nerd and I’ve developed a computer program that data matches and is able to do searches on multiple websites to produce fast results. I’ve already found a link between a commenter and a BDM record linked in through family tree matching too.
Francis: I can already answer some of your questions:
1. The code isn’t a horse-racing code or indeed any other kind of code, it’s an acrostic, and was (almost without doubt) a poem being composed by the writer to remind themselves of it to write down later.
2. The Thomsons’ phone number was on the back of the Rubaiyat because they knew the Somerton Man – this was revealed in a documentary a few years ago.
3. According to electoral rolls, Webb lived at the family home pretty much up until his father died in 1939, and then got married in 1941. So while there is a gap, it’s a pretty small one. And Webb was an “electrical fitter” in the rolls up to 1939, and then an “instrument maker”.
But never an Electrical Engineer! 😂
My theory is that Carl had a sort of nervous breakdown after his brother’s death as a POW in Malai and survivor’s guilt made him slowly distance himself from the ‘provincial’ life (selling car, tennis racket, golf clubs… and finally finishing his marriage) and he might have tried to go to Singapore to see his brother’s final resting place or even try to get his remains back to Australia.
There as a C. Webb working for Singapore Casket Co. in November, 1947, according to https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/maltribune19471101-1.2.55
‘Singapore Casket Co (Pte) Ltd, a subsidiary of InvoCare Limited, Australia, which is the largest Multinational Funeral Corporation in Asia Pacific Region. We serving the public since 1920, is today the largest funeral company providing professional and personalized funeral services for all religions in Singapore.’
Glen:
But ‘instrument maker’ could be related to the RAAF and some of them were indeed ‘electrical engineers’
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/halliwell-keith-12584
https://www.warmemorialsregister.nsw.gov.au/nsw-stories/jack-van-emden
Isn’t the code Arabic?
In an 8-syllables meter version, which matches that found in TSM’s Arabic original, we can have the following (MPAN and ETP should be read as 2- and 3-syllable words respectively, as in M-PAN and E-T-P):
“And foam, father, eternally, At illness “MPAN ETP”! Fill dad, O Saqi Aiaqçi! Poisoning done, evade lady! “
In an expanded 10-syllables meter` version:
“And be foaming, father, eternally, At your illness case “MPAN ETP”! Fill for daddy, O Saqi Aiaqçi! Poisoning done, keep a distance lady!”
Very good presentation, explaining what an ‘instrument maker’ and ‘electrical fitter’ would do in the context of the RAAF https://prezi.com/p/ptfm0wvphlyd/the-role-of-the-raaf-in-wwii/
Pat: this is a really interesting presentation, well found! It suggests a very plausible career path from electrical fitter (wireless operator) to instrument maker, within the RAAF (and I would guess elsewhere too). However, there is no sight or sound of Carl Webb in the RAAF records in the NAA, so the big question this begs is very much all about who he actually worked for instead. My best guess is that this was a Melbourne civilian company within the munitions world, which is where I’m looking next…
Follow-on: given that Carl Webb lived at the family home in Dandenong until around 1939, it seems highly likely to me that he also worked in Dandenong. (Though of course we don’t know for sure.)
Hence I think a very interesting hypothesis to test would be whether he worked in a munitions factory in or close to Dandenong (which certainly had a strong industrial presence in the 1930s). Does anyone want to take on the challenge of working out if there were any munitions factories in Dandenong in the 1930s? Might this be one for you, Pat?
The D’Arcy name hit a nerve, I now recall a D. D’Arcy character created by John Coutts a Sandhurst graduate? who spent twenty years or so in Australia from the mid twenties including a stint at Adelaide’s Keswick barracks in the early forties. He and wife Holly Faram were regulars at Derek’s much vaunted Pakies club and he was into quoting Rubaiyat quatrains. Yup, Sir Dystic D’Arcy character based on the author @ John Willy who published Bizarre magazine’s Adventures of Sweet Gwenoline series in 1949…See John Alexander Scott Coutts bn. Singapore 1902 died Arizona or Guernsey 1962.
Nick: I can try, but wouldn’t he be more likely to have the same contacts as his future in-laws, who happened to be working in the ‘munition’ business? Jack and Alice Robertson?
QUESTION
MARIBYRNONG MUNITION FACTORY
Mr FENTON:
MARIBYRNONG, VICTORIA
– Will the Prime Minister explain why the Government has decided to approach the Arbitration Court respecting the working of certain machines in the munitions factory at Maribyrnong? If such action is taken, will the union concerned in the case be called upon to defray its own expenses?
Mr BRUCE:
NAT
http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1928/19280424_reps_10_118/#debate-12
`– Twelve or eighteen months ago, a difficulty arose in the Maribyrnong factory. That factory is designed for the mass production of munitions, and the difficulty arose because it was claimed that for the work of the repeating machines only engineers should be employed. To have adopted that course would have made the cost of running the factory prohibitive, and accordingly, after some discussion, it was arranged that the matter should be determined by the Commonwealth Arbitration Court. I am not in touch with any action that may have been taken since, but I shall have inquiries made to ascertain the present position.’
Maybe people like Carl had been trained to fill in this gap… https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17401375
ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS.
Australian Supply Held Up.
RANGE-FINDING EQUIPMENT.
MELBOURNE, Wednesday.
Anti-aircraft guns are not expected to be
available for Australian coastal garrisons until
1039.
The guns are now being produced by the
munition factory at Maribyrnong, but they lack
delicate electricall equipment for the control of
the Airing range. This equipment will be manu-
factured In England, but there is little possi-
bility of the orders being executed for about
two years.
The electrical equipment Is known,
technically, as a “predictor.” It is the “Robot”
control range-finder of the modern machine
gun. Human observers first calculate the
speed and height and the wind affecting
approaching aircraft. These observations are
Conveyed to the officer at the predictor. He
operates a dial as each observation is given
to him. The predictor, after the manner of
an advanced calculating machine, then gives
the answer as the angle at which the anti-
aircraft gun must be elevated to obtain a
direct hit.
‘JD O’Shea of the Ammunition Factory at Footscray in Victoria was appointed manager of the Rocklea Works on 1 January 1941. Other staff, notably engineers, came from Victorian munitions establishments and private industry.’
https://heritage.brisbane.qld.gov.au/heritage-places/1406
They were not just an ammunition factory, they were also a training centre for the new ammunition factories.
‘Following interviews in February 1941 fourteen toolmakers, twenty-two trade workers, twenty-eight process workers and fifty-six ‘female operators’ were chosen for six months training in Melbourne.’
‘On referring to the list attached to the letter I discovered, however, that although there were twelve munitions factories in Victoria, six in New South Wales, and four in South Australia, the foundation work had been commenced for one in Queensland and a site selected for one in Western Australia, the cartridge case factory in Tasmania was only “projected”. I. ‘.found that there were thirteen annexes in New South Wales, fifteen in Victoria, four in South Australia, and one in Queensland. Tasmania and Western Australia were not even mentioned in the list. Turning to the list of establishments engaged in aircraft production, I found that under the Aircraft Production Commission, there were four in Victoria, two in New South Wales, and two in South Australia, and that, of the other establishments engaged in aircraft production, two were situated in New South Wales, three in Victoria, and one in South Australia. Again Tasmania and Western Australia were not mentioned. How can we get the best out of the people if three important States with great potentialities are completely ignored? ‘
http://historichansard.net/hofreps/1941/19410619_reps_16_167/#debate-45
My belief is that there are clues around Carl Webb’s address at 2/63 Bromby Street South Yarra. American Marines used the school directly across the road during WWII. There was also a WWII women’s signal training camp 10 minutes walk away in Fawkner Park and a major code breaking headquarters at the Monterey Apartments on nearby Queens Road. Carl and or Dott may have been employed in these operations, possibly Jo Thompson.
https://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/857-doreen-rowe?destination=aXRlbXNfcGVyX3BhZ2U9MjUmZiUyNTI1MjUyNTI1NUIwJTI1MjUyNTI1MjU1RD1pbV9maWVsZF9jb25mbGljdCUzQTEyMCZwYWdlPTU2
https://www.ozatwar.com/sigint/monterey.htm
https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/tony-wright-column-the-modest-spy-and-monterey-australias-bletchley-park-20170706-gx5mxu.html
It would be good to know the date of manufacture of Carl’s American overcoat.
Dandenong gal born and bred here. I never heard of a munitions factory in the area, the big one was at Maribyrnong.
I don’t believe he joined any service, his age, toes and spleen were against him, but he could have been exempt because he worked in a reserved occupation. Engineering was the industry with the highest number of exemptions, and Kellow’s House (see a previous post I made) was occupied by the RAAF during WW2.
With all due respect, Nick, answer #1 seems like you are merely replacing Professor Abbott’s unsubstantiated conjecture with your own. I think most rational observers agree with me that the acrostic theory is highly speculative and far from certain.
For one thing, I am yet to see a convincing example of a poem that these letters may correspond to. All the attempts I have seen so far (“Wm regrets going off alone”, etc.) struggle to fulfil the basic requirements of English syntax, let alone a phrase worthy of being called poetry.
Also, the notion that somebody would use a nonsensical, unpronounceable acrostic as a mnemonic device for a 44-word poem seems completely illogical to me. Poems are quite easy to memorize — songs are even easier — precisely because of their semantic content. Scrambled strings of letters are generally harder to remember. It is for this reason that phrases are often used to remember strings of letters (for example, “Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge” for the lines of the treble clef, or “Never Eat Salty Watermelon” for compass directions), rather than the other way around. If you apply a little common sense, I think you would agree that something like “shall I compare thee to a summer’s day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate” is far easier to remember than “SICTTASDTAMLAMT”. What, then, is to be gained by writing out his poem as an acrostic?
I don’t mean to say that the acrostic theory must be rejected out of hand. I just want to counterbalance your uncharacteristically dogmatic insistence that “it’s an acrostic”. That’s only a theory. One of many. In my personal opinion, Professor’s Abbott’s horse-racing theory is stronger than the acrostic theory—though neither can boast yet of a convincing solution.
As for answer #2, if you are satisfied with that as a solution to the mystery, good for you. For my part, I am very curious as to HOW the Thompsons knew Mr Webb, and I’d like to know why he was carrying their phone number with him shortly before his death. I suggested in my previous comment that perhaps there could be a connection between Jessica Thompson and Gerald Keane through his work with the Russian ballet in Adelaide. Just where Webb would hypothetically fit into all this remains unclear to me. I would find it interesting to probe these questions further. The statement “they knew the Somerton Man” is rather uninformative. Surely, most followers of this case are interested in HOW they knew him, rather than the simple yes/no question of whether they knew him.
Regarding #3, again I suppose if that’s enough for you, then all I can say is, good for you. The fact that people are still speculating about these matters (even after your reply to me) is a fair indication that people are indeed interested in digging deeper into these questions.
Re: Instrument Maker
We know about it’s use in Mathematics, Surveying and Music.
And as Pat has added with flying….
Instrument maker could also pertain to medical/surgical instruments.
Doff being a chiropodist and all…
Maybe that is how they met ?
Re Kevin…an alternate spelling could be Kevan
For anybody who cares, Keane was the “chief mechanist” accompanying the Borovansky Ballet. The Borovansky was the first ballet company formed in Australia and they toured the country throughout the 40s in association with the J. C. Williamson theatrical management company.
Further to the Instrument maker theme:
The ‘medical/surgical’ instrument maker option: might also fit with how Carl Webb and/or Dorothy Jean met Jessica Thompson ?
Jessica’s occupation as a Nurse and Dorothy’s a Chiropodist…
It is possible they could have met through their occupations in the ‘medical/science’ world.
Bit of a long shot but so’s most of what’s gone down of late, so why not. Anyone recall Robert William Fox, a chirpodist, working out of Nunn’s chemists at 14 Jetty Rd. Glenelg circa ’48. Just musing as to whether he might have been aquainted with Dorothy Webb if they’d been in the same qualifying class, being of a similar age. It had once been suggested that SM might have been a patient in view of his weird toe configuration but in light of new developements, it may prove just as likely that he was checking to see whether his missus had called in on Bob about a job. As I said punters, just musing so carry on with your other research initiatives. js
Francis: not only was the Unknown Man eulogised by SAO Capt. Em Webb has proven equally difficult to track down as namesake Carl, In 1948 the eulogist himself shared tennancy at 47/47A Smith St. Southwark with a metal machinist name of Francis Keane; I shit you not!
So searching for a University record for Carl Webb would be a good idea then.
Francis: Got fairly deep into J. C. Williamson research a while ago and so became familiar with both performers and management of the nominal Ballets Russes antpodes tour companies they promoted. Never came across a Thomas or Gerald Keane either as a dancer or with management which I find strange in light of my being aware of such implications. I don’t doubt at all the 1940 newspaper article’s veracity in reporting and so saying, I’ll now need to dig though my old handwritten lists of the players ie., 1936, 37 and 39 of whom many stayed on through the war years to create the Australian National Ballet Company…Could be yet another sign of scullduggery on the part of our DNA gene based Carl Webb ID team.
Francis: you asked the questions, and I gave you the answers. If you prefer the feel of Derek Abbott’s horse-code horse-shit, then fine: but you’re backing a dead horse there, and good luck clutching that ticket.
The 1949 codebreakers called it as an acrostic, and nothing has changed since. If anything, Pete Bowes’ A’s have strengthened the case for a specifically acrostic poem by 10x.
Catherine S: well, I did flag it as a speculation, and related specifically to the period 1930-1939. Carl Webb worked as an “electrical fitter” (NOT an engineer), which I now understand more to be a junior-level industrial pay grade for workers building electrical devices, along with “instrument maker” (his job title in 1941).
I strongly doubt that Webb was unfit for military service, he was a fit-looking bloke with no obvious physical exemption, so it seems far more likely to me that he was working in a protected industry. Given that his father-in-law was the Inspector of Munitions, a munitions factory seems far from unlikely.
That’s certainly true for 1939, when the Melbourne munitions industry was suddenly expanding – the same year Carl’s father died. I was just wondering whether there might have been a small factory near Dandenong just before the war.
Francoise: I care, thanks very much for that! 🌟
…..when Bob Fox chiropodist died at Loxton in 2003 he was predeceased by wife Audry however at some stage his better half was listed as Lillian Dorothy.
Wait, so he wasn’t an electrical engineer? Where did the idea that he was come from, I wonder.
A teeny thing – he wasn’t from Dandenong. The family lived on Springvale Road in Springvale which was in the Shire of Dandenong. His pop ran a business known in the local newspaper as Springvale Bakery, Webb’s Bakery or just the bakery. I can’t find an exact address, just Springvale Rd ‘south of the line’. Pop was very civic minded, quite a few mentions of his good works. He ran it from 1928 until a few months before his death.
Catherine S: thanks for that, I’ll try to make the Dandenong distinction clearer.
I’ll try to make it to the local historical society and see if I can come up with anything of interest. I live just a couple of minutes drive from where I believe the Webb family lived. Springy was a small place, mostly market gardens back then. Any shops, like the bakery would have been near the train station.
Anyone here prepared to go with the flow in that Carl Webb and Jerry Somerton are one and the same. I can’t help noticing that long time Keane devotees are no longer so Keen on Keane about and joined with general acceptance of Webb as a safer bet. One such turn coat has posed the question inter alia ” What is Feltus worried about. ” ie., his reasons for not naming names in ‘Unknown Man’ of 2010. In my view it cannonly have been due to his fear of being exposed for obtaining evidence from Sapol without their blessings. Should make sense to our ‘Q’ poser and newly converted Webb = SM advocate, Dude 747…
1935 Vic S&M has baker R.A. Wabb (sic) Springvale – but unfortunately no address.
In the regional listings Springvale isn’t big enough to warrant addresses, but lists:
Webb, Chas. E. (lookie that – did we have that extra initial?)
Webb, Geo. (farmer)
Webb, R.A. baker
There are a large number of Webb’s more broadly.
I had a glance over Robertson too – Can’t find them in Ballarat (there’s a JF Robertson whose a fishmonger).
There’s a Mrs Alice and a John at 9 Merton St S. M. (South Melbourne?) – Merton rings a bell so I think someone else might have found that before (or I thought Merton came up in something before (other than SoMerton)
There’s also a JA Roberston (pretty sure it’s J A, not J & A) in Springvale which is perhaps of passing interest.
Mrs A Robertson is listed as Grocer in th 1935 S&M at 9 Merton.
In 1940 it lists J Robertson Grc
Not related to Webb, but mildly interesting 1935 has a Nelson, Alex at 3 Merton and #7 Vacant. In 1940 someone else is at 3, and 7 is Nelson, Mrs E, Grcr and Nelson, Alexr
1940 only has 1 Webb in Springvale G – Pltry frmr (“I hide with chicken….frken….”).
Has a Webb, Chas E Falcon Hotel, Koyuga (which is kind of Shepparton area (50km, but in terms of country Aus, that’s not real far) – the land of the bodgey baker).
Has a Robertson D.J in Lygon St Carlton (but not sure whether our DJ should have been listed “Miss D.J.” Rather than D.J
1945 Vic S&M has:
Webb Chas E Springvale
Webb Chas E Cambridge St Collingwood.
Both of these Webbs also appear in 1950, but only the Collingwood one in ’55.
The Chicken Farmer of Springvale has gone in 1945. The only Webb in Springvale in 1955 is the (relatively new) Webb Ave,
milongal: Collingwood nominee almost sure to be Charles Edgar 14/6/91 MITIAMO, cook not chook by profession with a wife named Jean and too old for soldiering by 1944. The Springvale fella doesn’t look good for me with added ‘E’ not my cup of tea; my contention is that on official docs. we must concentrate on the birth name Carl only, bypassing Charles along with it’s short form Chas. and any middle initial.
@JS: I was never all that keane on Webb (although I was gradually coming around), and the explanation I read of why they decided on Webb today had my head spinning a bit (not sure if it was poor reporting, poor logic, me not understanding – or some combination of all of them).
In particular I’m wary of the “we found a connection, then made some more connections and found someone vaguely related who seems to go missing, and then concluded they were the only person it could be” – insert “confirmation bias” type comments….
For mine the biggest thing with Webb was the visual similarity with his – but when we’ve got a few different pictures and a bust to choose from I could tie in to Mikkelsen or Boxall or some other people….
I alluded to this before…on a cemetery index that (as I understand) is populated by volunteers transcribing gravestones (so there’s probably some scope for error) there’s some Webb’s who I can’t necessarily find through searches at the cemeteries themselves….
The ones in particular I was digging at (mostly because there was no age to dismiss them). Location is cemetery that they’ve been recorded at
WEBB Charles 9/07/1950 Woronora Memorial Park NSW
WEBB Charles 10/06/1969 Macquarie Park NSW
WEBB Charles 17 Aug 1973 Woronora Memorial Park NSW
WEBB Charles Arthur 1949 Box Hill
WEBB Charles Daniel John 7/09/1955 West Tce (Adel) (I included this because it’s at West Tce – but it appears to be in an area reserved for ex- service people)
WEBB Charles Edwin 6/09/1978 Enfield SA
WEBB Charles V 16/03/1978 (age 72) Kyogle NSW (descendants**)
WEBB Charles William in 2014 (Woronora) wife Shirley June MANNING (not impossible, I suppose)
Most (all?) of them were transcribed by the same person (quite possibly the person who runs the site)
I think I mentioned somewhere else there was an Obit for Jim CRICK that remembered him as “much loved and respected uncle to Sandy, Kevin and families” and offering sympathy to Jim’s kids and their families.
It doesn’t mention Phyllis (or Dorothy) and sort of feels like cousins paying respects despite a possible falling out between the sisters…..(Of course they could be related on Jim’s side which might also explain some of that) – I think I might go digging again.
Milongal – Tce is short for Terence.
REPLY TO ‘FRANCOIS’ RE: YOUR COMMENT/REPLY TO NICK HERE. (The lengthy one 8/7/2022, 4:13 AM~
I just want to say I agree with you, and that your reply was excellent. Very well said, and a voice of reason. Perhaps understandably many people all over are going completely off the rails regarding Somerton man with no shortage of wild speculation. I am making no assumptions regarding Carl Webb and the why and how. I prefer to wait for photos, documents, etc., to surface and give everyone incontrovertible proof and perhaps some answers to all the many questions. I do feel that in time some of these things will surface. I too would really like to know that the connection was between C. Webb and Jessica Thompson. Professor A. deserves a lot of credit for all his work and identifying Mr. Webb and giving him his name, but just as an example, he made statements speculating that it was “likely” Webb had come south to search/connect with his estranged wife. Really? I don’t see that as “likely”. It’s a leap I would never make. Carl had Jo Thompson’s phone number on his person and was near her home. His wife was living around 100 miles away from Glenelg. Very UN likely in my opinion that Carl was in the process of hunting down his wife. Anyway, there are so many wild suppositions out there and I truly hope that in time we will all have more of the real story with the photos, documents, etc., to back it up. Again, thank you for your well written, common sense comment.
@Diane – not sure what you mean – Tce in my earlier relates to West Terrace Cemetery….
On overviewing the 1922 Swinburne college mag, it would appear that no dedicated courses devoted purely to electrical implications were available. This conforms with an earlier post in which a college historical overview notes that a mechanical & engineering sylabus was not introduced until after WW2. From the little we know for sure, there is no mention of Carl’s having shown expertise in subjects on offer at Swinburne pre war ie., science, pottery, sheetmetal working, woodwork along with turning and fitting….as an aside, one student mentioned Percy Pavey from Oakleigh Vic. who went on to become unsurpassed as Australia’s greatest target rifle shooter of all time.
milongal: we few remaining dedicated Voynicherios are well used to that sort of nonsensicle input from our Diane. She’s a real lady in spite her gaffs but means well as her V/Ninja peers will attest.
Mary Spence: Sorry, but your own contentions (assumptions) are based on blind acceptance of hearsay evidence and not proven fact ie., your “Carl had Jo’s phone number on his person and was near her home” (you invented it surely). In essence they be no better (worse?) than so called “wild speculations” or “many wild suppositions” that seem to be so worrisome to you. Welcome to the club; try to get used to such fantasies, we did.
John Sanders, No need to be ‘snipey’. Carl had the phone number when he came to Somerton. I did not speculate or make that up. That is fact. What he had it for who knows? I don’t and I did not attempt to say I did. It only proves that he knew either Prosper or Jo or both. I also never said he was going to see them that day, and I don’t think anyone knows if he was planning to or did.
milongal: bit of a dark horse re your cemetery index Webbs. this one only comes up for me on Ryerson vis. Charles Webb (1897) 1965, gets a PROV mention for a Coroners Inquest (suicide or asylum?) into 1965 death of Charles aka Eric Charles Webb of Nth. Brighton. Not to be confused with the motor dealer of that name who is not a horse in this race…Probably worth a punt if only to escape the tedium.
@Mary – we don’t know Carl had the phone number. The phone number was on a page of a book that was linked to a slip of paper that was found in the trousers of the body on the beach. Unless you have other information?
To simplify:
1) We don’t know the pants are his (there’s been plenty speculation in the past that he may have been dressed post-mortem)
2) We don’t know that he knew the slip of paper was in the pants – even if they were his, what if he’d recently (or even not so recently) bought them from a 2nd hand store – the slip was tightly rolled up and secreted in a difficult to find pocket. (actually have to think about whether dry cleaning would have affected a tightly rolled up slip of paper)
3) the link between the slip and the book is probable but not definitive – it boils down to an “analyst” saying “paper sure looks similar”
4) Even if the slip came from the book, it does not immediately follow that he ever had the book
5) Even if the book was his (or even if he had the book) he wasn’t necessarily the aware of the scribblings in the back.
6) We actually don’t even know if he was ever alive in Somerton (in fact there was a total of zero witnesses who saw him in Adelaide at all – and no, I’m not trying to suggest the body was brought in from interstate, I’m merely pointing out that a lot of stuff cited as “fact” is in fact speculation or (in some rare cases) an educated guess)
So certainly from where I’m looking Carl having the phone number while he was in Somerton is not a fact.
Out of interest I add here some of the newspaper articles that appeared in Victorian newspapers after 1 Dec 1948, using the words Somerton, beach and man appearing within 100 words of each other. The Sun News Pictorial, which had the biggest readership is not available online. It wasn’t a big story in the Victorian papers, although it was suggested early on that the mystery man was a local.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/advanced/category/newspapers?keyword=%22somerton%20beach%20man%22~100&date.from=1948-12-01&date.to=1999-01-12&sortBy=dateAsc&l-state=Victoria
I have read on many different sites how uncaring his friends and family were, not reporting him missing and failing to recognise his photo in the papers. None of us knows if they did or not – Russell St (the Melbourne police HQ) was inundated with people saying they recognised him, maybe some of them were right and were brushed off by police, I doubt if we will ever know.
Catherine S.
Great work! In reading each article I noticed none of them mentioned the clothing that DID have the name T. Keane. One wonders if they had only bothered to include that information maybe Carl would have been identified at the time. Seems like a huge oversight not to have included that fact in the articles.
Milongal~
Everything you said is true. That being said, everything has a degree of likely to unlikely. Sure there are many strange coincidences in life and almost anything is possible. (Operative word, possible).
Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions only. I prefer to take each circumstance and I believe what is MOST LIKELY as opposed to LESS likely, until such time as facts may come out that clearly prove something.
1. I personally do NOT believe that Carl was murdered. Forensics back then was certainly not what it is now. I think it LIKELY that Carl was not someone living a ‘high risk’ lifestyle. I think it MORE likely that he had a sudden malfunction in his body that resulted in a debilitating quick death, OR that he took his own life. Are other scenarios possible? Of course, but in my opinion NOT LIKELY.
I don’t think that it’s LIKELY that the pants being his or not his has any relevance.
2. I personally think it is more likely that Carl DID know the paper was in his pants and in fact put it there. The man who found the book in his car said he was parked at Somerton beach THAT DAY that Carl was there. Could someone else have thrown the book into the car? Of course, but is it LIKELY? In my opinion no. Again, anything is possible, but that doesn’t mean it’s likely. I think it’s stretching credulity to think that a book is found in a car that was at Somerton Beach on the same day, that a piece of a page of that book containing a couple words was torn out, and that a secreted, almost identical torn piece of paper containing the same words then turned up hidden on Carl’s person when found was someone else’s book and no relation to Carl and his slip of paper. Sorry, just NOT likely or believable. Again, in my opinion, it’s much MORE LIKELY that Carl indeed did tear the piece from the book, toss the book, and secrete the torn piece in his pants. He also loved poetry—Just another little reason to nudge all this to the ‘more likely’ side.
This also addresses #3 and 4.
5. Again, I am going with what is MOST likely. I think from what we know of Carl, it’s MORE likely it WAS his book and that he read it, perhaps multiple times, and knew about the writing in it. If so, who know who gave him the book? Maybe he got if from Jo Thompson, or maybe some friend or acquaintance gave it to him. Maybe he bought it himself.
6. I personally do not subscribe to the ‘murder’ theory, and I again think it’s not very believable to think that Carl was NOT alive in Somerton. (I think I even read somewhere that there was a witness who told police that they thought he might be drunk because although mostly unresponsive he ‘moved’ his foot). This is neither here not there. I again think it is MOST likely Carl certainly was alive in Somerton.
So, anything’s-possible-coincidences-aside, I think that Carl somehow knew Jo and/or Prosper Thompson, and it is more likely than not that he was close to their home that day for a reason. I am also not one of those people who believe Carl was up to nefarious no-good, with used cars or anything else. I know he ran ads to sell cars quite often and I don’t think it’s LIKELY that he was doing that blatantly while cheating, stealing, etc., I have heard nothing and seen NO records whatsoever of Carl being in trouble with the law in his life, and I prefer at this stage to give him the benefit of the doubt. Again, anything is possible and none of us know what may yet turn up and what kind of resolution (if any) that we may learn of in time. Carl’s story is an enigma and it’s tantalizing in it’s seeming mystery. It may turn out to be just a sad story of a ‘regular guy’.
@Mary Spencer
Some excellent points but everybody’s explanations are pure conjecture. I will summarize some of my thoughts here.
The inquest into his death concluded that:
His death was not natural.
That it was probably caused by poison.
That it almost certainly was not accidental.
I have noticed that some of the old hands here can get very sniffy if any newcomers intrude – but do you know what? I don’t GIVE a toss! However some of your interlocutors do have a point. As the inquest makes plain:
“..the original assumption that it was the deceased who left the suitcase at the luggage room, bought the rail and bus tickets, removed the clothing tags, and put the words “Tamam Shud” in a pocket would require revision [if the dead body had been taken to the place where it was found].”
The coroner goes on to say “Neither the luggage room attendant, nor the officer who issued the Henley Beach ticket, nor the bus conductor can remember seeing him. No one has come forward to say that he was seen at Somerton between the arrival of the bus and 7pm.” Over 40 bus tickets were sold on the bus between central Adelaide and Glenelg. Nobody came forward from that journey to say that they had seen him. Nobody came forward to say that they saw a well-dressed, clean cut man in Glenelg or Somerton Park. Of course that does NOT mean that he didn’t make that journey.
The place where the body was found was right at the bottom of some steps from the Esplanade to the beach. A very odd place for a suicide. PC John Moss who was the first copper on the scene (and who later went on to play drums in the band Culture Club – just kidding) stated “The spot was quite open, not secluded. Anybody lying there might have expected that they would be seen easily by anyone going up the steps ..those steps are used a lot, particularly in summer (ie late Nov/early Dec in Oz).”
Two witnesses came forward to say that they saw the man between 7pm and 7.30pm on the evening of 30 Nov. John Bain Lyons and his wife were walking on the beach at 7pm when they saw the man. John said he raised his arm and thought the man was drunk. He joked to his wife that they ought to call the police. John returned to the beach the next morning and saw some horsemen by the body. Although he hadn’t seen the man’s face the evening before, being too far away, he said that “it was definitely the same person…the body was in the same position the next morning with the legs crossed.”
The other witnesses were a young couple on a tryst, Gordon Strapps and Olive Neill. They didn’t go down to the beach, staying on the landing, but saw the lower half of a man lying there at 7.30 pm. Interestingly they said his legs weren’t crossed. Olive wanted to check on the man but Kenneth told her to “mind your own business.” The man made no sound but he “might have” shifted position. Apparently there were other people on the beach but nobody else came forward.
The coroner was sceptical about these reports. The problem investigators had was that if he had been there overnight it was difficult to account for his death if indeed he had died by poisoning. There was no potential container found. No vomit, although some signs of convulsion. The medical examiner estimated that he died at around 2pm. Of course that could be mistaken. A quick acting poison would have meant an earlier death. A slow acting poison would have caused an unholy mess and more signs of a death struggle. That is why they began to think his body was dumped on the beach by persons unknown after his decease. Of course you would then have to disregard the sightings the previous evening. They probably surmised that anyone dumping the body would have quickly taken it to the bottom of the steps and ran, and done so under cover of darkness.
So maybe Carl never made it to the beach suburbs alive. Maybe the Rubaiyat wasn’t his at all. Maybe it belonged to Jessica Thomson. It is pure conjecture to conclude that Carl arrived in Adelaide that morning. That he knew or was planning to visit Prosper or Jessica Thomson. He almost certainly wasn’t looking for his wife, who enrolled at Elsternwick, Melbourne in 1949. We need evidence, not speculation. It is very possible he was into something “secretive” or “dark” but who knows? I do think there might be a connection with Prosper Thomson who had lived in Melbourne, but Prosper wasn’t Al Capone and as you said there is no evidence that Carl was into any sort of criminal activity. Perhaps archival research will come up with a link at some point. Maybe Carl was in Beechworth (God help him) or some such place. So his family was ashamed of him. But he was described as “very clean” and well groomed. Certainly not a bum. Or he might have been doing a “Peter Bergmann” and trying to cover his tracks. Or he might have gone for a stroll along the Esplanade and suddenly felt ill and struggled down to the strand and died.
See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-records-sa/sets/72157709889736002/
This case interests me because I visited many of the relevant locations in 1985. Glenelg, Somerton Park, Footscray, South Yarra. I have my own souvenir of Melbourne, a place I liked very much but of which I have mixed memories. One evening I arranged to meet a bloke in a pub in Essendon. He didn’t turn up for two hours and everyone who came into the joint insisted I had a beer with them. Unfortunately at some point I admitted that I had no interest in Aussie rules – schoolboy error – and got into a few heated altercations. When my buddy finally turned up he had all his mates with him and we went on a nightmare, high speed, drink fuelled, sharpie style joyride through the northern suburbs of the city until arriving at a wild party in the back streets of Fitzroy. Unfortunately I got involved in another altercation and some bastard punched me hard in the eye, splitting my eyelid in two. Blood was spurting all over the place, a two or three night spell in the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear ensued and I still have a scar to this day – my souvenir of Melbourne. Still preferred it to sleepy old Adelaide! But on a previous trip to Australia I had survived hitching in the outback, crocs in the wilds of Arnhem Land, psychotic axe-wielding Viet vets in dusty old towns in the Kimberley, wild hippies (‘mungbeans’) in Broome, trips into the bush with mates of the “real” Crocodile Dundee”^, a maniac who drove his truck into a motel bar at Uluru killing five (I avoided the incident by a few hours), a six foot long goanna who tried to snuggle next to my tent in Wyndham to keep warm and the legendary Garkain* who followed me to a remote island in the Arafura Sea and howled demonically right outside my window for two or three hours in the early morn – THE most frightening experience of my life.
^”[Rod] Ansell, a blond-haired, blue-eyed man who resembled [Paul] Hogan, was pleasant but intense, a crack shot and a tough bushman who hunted buffalo in a remote region in northern Australia in the 1980s, said an old acquaintance, Chips Mackinolty.” Chips took me on a couple of drives into the bush. Ansell was later killed in a shootout with the cops near Darwin.
*”Garkain is a legendary creature in Australian Aboriginal mythology said to haunt the dense jungle along the Liverpool River in the Northern Territory, Australia. Should an unwary traveler enter his domain, Garkain swoops down from the trees on his leathery wings and envelops them…After suffocating his victim with his foul stench, Garkain eats their flesh, leaving the intruder’s spirit to forever wander the vast jungle in search of their final resting place.” The Liverpool River is where some gung-ho, buffalo hunting, art collecting adventurer took me in a tiny motor boat and proceeded to antagonize every croc on the riverbank – and there were hundreds of them. Garkain didn’t kill me in situ but I still believe to this day that he followed me the relatively short distance to Milingimbi. Luckily I didn’t look out the window.
RE: Mary Spencer
Thank you for the support and I agree that the circumstantial evidence suggests that Webb was more likely in Somerton to see Jessica and/or Prosper, rather than his ex-wife who was 100 miles away. At this point I think the most promising approach would be to compile everything we know about Webb and the Thomsons and find possible points of contact.
We can note a few obvious connections already:
(1) Webb was from Melbourne (he lived in the inner-city suburb of South Yarra). Jessica and Prosper Thomson had “recently moved” to Adelaide from Melbourne.
(2) Webb and Jessica were both lovers of poetry.
(3) Both Webb and Jessica had relationship troubles. Webb abandoned his wife and went a-roving. Jessica apparently confessed to a friend that her child was not Prosper’s.
Can you think of any others?
I am still interested in Gerald T. Keane, Carl Webb’s brother-in-law. When he arrived in Adelaide, Webb was carrying a suitcase containing clothing that belonged to either Gerald Keane or Keane’s deceased son. How did Webb come into possession of these items? Did Webb turn to his sister and her husband for help getting back on his feet after his marriage fell apart? This suggests some closeness between Keane and Webb.
Keane worked as a stage machinist for a prominent Australian theatre company, and had toured the country with the Boronavsky Ballet. It’s strange how ballet keeps popping up in this case. We know Jessica’s son Robin Thomson became a professional ballet dancer (an unusual profession for a man, especially in the 1960s). Did Jessica herself have some involvement in ballet or the performing arts?
This naturally leads us to the question of whether Webb himself had any involvement with the world of the theatre. There are records in Trove of Webb’s sister Freda and her future husband (Keane) playing piano and singing at various concerts in Camperdown. Another of Carl’s siblings, Roy Webb, is mentioned as playing the violin. There was some suggestion early in the case, based on Webb’s unusually pronounced calf muscles and feet, that he himself could have been a dancer. However, his professional qualifications (electrical fitter, instrument maker) would be more suited to the job of a stage technician/machinist like Gerald Keane.
Finally, another interesting angle of inquiry would be Carl Webb’s sister Gladys. Gladys May Scott (nee Webb) was arrested in 1946 along with two other people (one of whom, William Tregear, was an organizer of the Communist Party) for trespassing. It seems that some people were “squatting” (i.e., living illegally) at a residence in Melbourne “with the assistance of the Communist party”. It’s not clear what exactly Gladys was doing there. So far I’ve found nothing to connect Carl with any of Gladys’s communist associates, but I think it would be worth looking into.
Francoisse,
Once again I agree with all your points.
I am still not buying into some comments by some on the Carl/Fitter thread regarding the supposed cause of death was, among others. I do not personally think there was a big cloak and dagger something going on and that Carl was murdered and dumped on the beach. Police/coroners/pathologists make some whopper mistakes with autopsies/cause of death in this day, and what they said then could be a totally erroneous conclusion.
I also think it’s rubbish that just because no one seemed to remember him at the train station, bus, cafe, etc., he didn’t get to Glenelg by himself alive and well. I could be on a bus, get off at my destination and have people ask me specifics or show me photos of others on the same bus and I might not remember anything. People don’t memorize others when they have no reason to do so, or are occupied with their own business. As we all also know, eyewitness testimony is notoriously lacking.
I also think it’s silly to think that Carl is not the one who brought the suitcase. It just makes no sense. As I said before anything is possible, but some things are just ridiculously unlikely or near impossible to believe. I am waiting for facts, as you are. I think Carl definitely had some kind of cordial relationship with his sister and her husband T. Keane, and probably their deceased son as well. His brother in law most LIKELY gave him some of the clothing in the case. Carl didn’t steal it, and who else would bring that case to town and check it. Someone bringing a dead Carl? Um…I don’t think so.
I definitely believe he knew Jo and Prosper Thompson and planned to see one or both of them. I do think one key to solving the mystery would be to try to find out HOW he know them, Did he know BOTH of them, and in WHAT capacity.
Someone on the ‘fitter’ thread also said maybe the Rubaiyat book was not Carl’s and neither was the paper w/ Tamam Shud on it, but I find this Conspiracy Theory stuff also pretty far-fetched and not likely. There HAS to be some connection between Carl, Jo, Prosper, the book and ‘it’s finished’ in my opinion.
Unlike some, I don’t think Carl committed suicide. I said it was a possibility, but I think it’s MORE likely that he was ill. I think he had some catastrophic physical event on that beach that evening after probably not feeling very well. Probably no proof for any of that, but I don’t think the case is there for positive murder/poisoning either.
I’ve read all about this case for years and years as have so many others. I do recall once reading that someone in a local diner did remember and ID Carl as being there that day, Nov. 30. I don’t know what the source was as it was several years ago. Of course it could have been a false ID, but I still think Carl was alive and got to Somerton by himself and was on some specific mission.
If only we could get more info and figure out what it was…
Very good posts, I am enjoying reading your adventures, Steve H, and very good points, Mary Spencer and Francoisse.
The Rubaiyat and the Tamám Shud fatalistic point to some sort of poetical death, suicide, terminal illness or a revengeful female (Agatha Christie’s Poirot said that poison is the ladies first choice for murder, n’est-ce pas?)
PS: I suppose mother Russia is a female of sorts, so anything is possible.
Nick, or should I call you Mr Pilchard.
I’ll be off now to get back to the “day job” but as a farewell gesture I would like to leave you with a nice quote. I have been doing a bit of digging in a different direction and was inspired to pull out one of my books from the “History and Society” section of my, er, library (chortle). In fact it’s a book I haven’t opened since, at the latest, 1979, when I was a mere undergraduate in Canterbury, Kent.
“A science, either official or particular which has neither a specific theoretical object nor a specific real object does not exist as a science. This does not mean that it may not have an institutional existence, in so far as it is socially recognised as capable of producing knowledge. However if its only distinctiveness is institutional, this is because it produces not knowledge but misknowledge or displaced knowledge, ie which concerns theoretical objects other than those it claims to be analyzing, Such an activity is not theoretical but ideological.”
Manuel Castells, ‘Theory and Ideology in Urban Sociology’, from Sociologie and Societes 1, (1969), reproduced in C G (Chris) Pickvance (ed) Urban Sociology Critical Essays (1976).
Castells was talking here specifically about urban sociology, which he considered an ideology rather than a science and which he wanted to replace with a study of “consumption processes”. But he was a Marxist then, an Althusserian one to boot, and he probably wouldn’t express himself in quite the same terms as that today, as the former Most Excellent Manuel Castells. He might have been talking then though about the sociology of anything that wasn’t based on a strictly structural Marxist approach, maybe the sociology of knowledge for example.
On the whole I’m more of a Foucault man than a Bourdieu man myself.
As Boris Johnson nearly said when he announced his resignation, “Them’s the epistemological breaks”.
Steve: me, I got fouc-all from Foucault. :-p And in the end, Bourdieu was just a one-trick pony, alas. But I’ll be forever happy to be referenced as a Pilchard man. 😉
@Mary I agree (and have often said) that him not being noticed is totally different to him not being there (although I’m more cautious about the suitcase). I drove buses for a couple of years and couldn’t really tell you if someone was or wasn’t on a bus (unless they were regular or did something that caused me to notice them).
That said, I don’t think the presence of a train ticket and bus ticket on his person necessarily says he was at the railway station or caught the bus.
But I think it’s just as fraught to dismiss the idea he was on the bus as it is to dismiss the idea he might not have been – in fact I think a lot of people have ended up down strange rabbitholes because they follow “probable logic” contaminated with confirmation bias toward their own story. And there’s a whole lot of in-between that are based on assumption too (that have been visited to varying degree in the past).
e.g. There were buses that went to St Leonards and there were buses that went to Somerton Park – he caught one to St Leonards but apparently with the intention of ending up at Somerton. Granted they are walking distance (and a common assumption is that he got off near the corner of Anzac Hwy and Adelphi Tce – but if noone actually remembers seeing him where did this assumption come from?). It’s all stuff we can explain, but each little assumption we make reduces the probability we have the entire story right.
Perhaps the more important points to consider is not whether he was or wasn’t somewhere, but whether knowing that is useful in any way (and if it does considering the implications of him *not* being there as much as we muse over him being there).
@Steve H I think most objections to the sudden flurry of attention here isn’t that new people are sharing their thoughts, it’s that we see old ideas that have been discussed at some depth in the past (often on this site and often still there for all to see) brought up again); or questions asked that have been considered long time ago; etc…
@Mary – sorry missed your response to my last. Your earlier post said “Carl had the book at Somerton….I did not speculate or make up. That is a fact” – my point was it is actually speculation and not a fact (which I notice you’ve now clarified as being “more likely” (ie speculation)). Some of your “More likely” I agree with, some not so much – but in any case, more likely is not certainty.
Re the person in the Diner (or perhaps pub) google “Solomonson Somerton Man” (if you add site: you’ll probably find some discussions around that on this very site). In fact if you’re relatively new to this site you might find an interesting read of some of the comments related to posts about the Somerton Man (there have been quite a few) – just skip the ones that descend into arguments….
Don’t forget that the Somerton Man and Prosper Thomson were involved in the murder of Seckold in the grounds of Government House in 1943. Governor Barclay-Harvey then took two days off work. Speculation was rife that Lady Barclay-Harvey was involved and that it was either race fixing or a substitution affair.
Webb flees to Melbourne but comes back in order to confront George about it. George suggests they sit down and discuss the matter and administers a series of poisons.
@milongal
Thanks for your reply. I don’t think many people get my persistent tongue-in-cheek, combative sense of humour. No offence meant. I agree with you that a lot of people start from a conclusion and try to find any evidence that supports that conclusion and dismiss any that doesn’t. One must speculate in order to look in new and different directions, but one really shouldn’t make wild conjectures and then present those as established facts. There is, for example, no evidence that Carl Webb knew or encountered Prosper and/or Jo Thomson. He may well have done but hunches, feelings, “psychical contacts” and whatever are less than worthless. Similarly saying things like “I saw something on the internet years ago which stated x, y or z” and then conveniently not being able to find that source is prime time bullshit. If you don’t know by now that people make stuff up – even 60 Minutes Australia stated that SM was seen on the day before he was found dead knocking on the Thomson’s door – there ain’t much hope for you. Even if someone did claim to see SM alive in Glenelg/Somerton Park that day, they may have been mistaken or even trying to insert themselves into the case for the sake of publicity. Remember how many women claimed to be his wife.
On the balance of probability I think he did at least make the bus ride to Glenelg but there really isn’t any proof of that. One could speculate that he was gay, mentally unwell, a criminal, or simply estranged from his family and fancied a move to Adelaide, but who knows? Not to cast any aspersions whatsoever but I did find a piece on Trove from the Adelaide News for 26 Feb 1949 that stated “Police, who have been concerned for some months at the activities of prowlers this week made four arrests on successive nights of men…Most of the prowlers are sex perverts. On warmer nights they are attracted to Adelaide beaches. In the Glenelg district police have had frequent complaints.” Perhaps some idiot might try to make something out of that!
Milongal, I respect everyone right to their own opinion. I also understand probably every single thing about SM has been discussed here in the past, as well as on a million other sites. I have read tons over the years and seen many documentaries as I am sure most here have as well. I won’t argue over points because everyone has their own opinions, theories, hunches, etc.
One thing—Yes, I think it can be presumed to be a fact that Carl had the book in his possession. I think it’s not believable or logical that someone else had the book, tore out the Tamam Shud piece at the back, rolled it up and put it in Carl’s hidden pocket. To think that, you would have to believe and accept a lot of other things that there is no indication of or proof for at all. Conversely, It’s equally unlikely that the book was someone else’s and they tore out the exact same piece, tossing it into a car nearby on the same day the Somerton man was there, and they have their scrap. The police said the piece did come from the book discarded in the car, that the car owner later turned into the police, confirming the day his car was indeed at Somerton park. (I did know the guys name but can’t think of it right now). I always listen to other’s ideas and though I may not agree, I am not going to argue or berate them for having their own honest opinion. Yes, I have seen a bit of sniping here and once at me for evidently being “new” here—-Seriously???? That did seem a bit ‘grade school behavior’…As for Carl actually being there and alive that day, I (and the police) have seen adequate circumstances to make that assumption. NONE of this speculation by any of us can be proven or disproven as of yet, but yes, I think there is evidence pointing to the likelihood that Carl willfully came to Adelaide and checked his suitcase, and got on a bus. That also doesn’t make me close-minded to whatever facts may come to light that may point the investigation in other directions.
Excellent points, Mary Spencer. The “murdered and carried to the beach” theory is not only contradicted by eyewitness testimony, it is based on a whole bunch of plainly illogical leaps of the imagination. As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence whatsoever that this man was murdered.
However, I think there is one thing we disagree on. I tend to lean towards suicide as the cause of death, rather than an illness. Tearing out a piece of paper with the words “TAMAM SHUD” (which mean “it is finished”) seems consistent with somebody of a poetic disposition who has decided to end things. The lack of identification and the fact that he was alone in a city far from home are also consistent with a person trying to disappear. The fact that his family apparently never identified him also suggests to me that he must have already cut himself off from his relatives and loved ones. This kind of self-isolation is common in cases of suicide. It seems quite plausible to me that the man committed suicide with an overdose of medication, and it wasn’t detected post-mortem due to human error or the technological limitations of the time.
Of course, I am open to the illness theory as well, but then we would need to come up with some other explanation for “tamam shud” and the apparent indifference of Carl’s friends and family to his disappearance.
Franncoisse, I am definitely open to the suicide theory. I kind of hope it wasn’t that and it seems like he had a mission coming there, aside from taking his life. I think it was either a sudden freaky natural death or a suicide. Wish we could all learn the missing pieces. How well did he know Jo/Prosper? Was he there to see either of them? Did he have any connection with one or the other? Did he really plan this trip to take his own life, or did something on that specific trip tip him over the edge? Tamam Shud….SOMETHING was finished or ended, but none of know WHAT! If we only knew more about his life and background we might be able to make an educated guess as to the what and why. Now, his living relatives probably know about as much as we all do about him, but MAYBE someone has some photos at least, or some information about Carl passed down by one of his relatives who did know him. Kind of wondering if some enterprising investigative journalist/private investigator isn’t out there beavering away trying to discover Carl’s secrets. Hope so!
Sorry, Fracoisse, THE BODY HAD LIVIDITY ALL DOWN THE BACK AND AT THE BASE OF THE HEAD. But it was sitting up, waving and chain smoking fags all night. Oh, and swatting at mozzies. I’d much prefer the eyewitness testimony of a few snoggers and rooters to the pure science of how lividity develops. Somerton Beach, like many in Adelaide, becomes after dark the habitat of miscreants who should be given the shortest of shrifts. Tschhhh!
Steve H: I must be that idiot because I was about to write that Adelaide beaches are gay beats in summer… but I thought it would trigger Big Nick’s filter. The fact is that Henley and Somerton are used by gentlemen who wish to find friendship and conversation on summer evenings. Fort Largs is too. If Prosper was in a marriage of convenience with Jessica and his lover happened to turn up then who knows what could have happened. Nonetheless basic physiology says lividity cannot occur in that pattern when the subject dies sitting erect.
Frank Gilroy, just adding a few qualifiers to your captivating account!
On the beach, he was:
– not waving per se, but was seen to raise an arm once.
– not chain smoking fags (no sign of several ciggy butts), but had an unlit cigarette and another lying around on or around his person (apart from the pack).
– not swatting at mozzies but in fact NOT swatting at them.
You might very well be right about everything else. I’m agnostic!
Mary Spencer, like you, I don’t want the poor fellow to have died of suicide. I think that I’m partial to TSM because of the pathos factor.
Just a few thoughts…Here is a quote from a narrative of the Somerton man investigation. This is in regards to Jo Thompson:
“…By most accounts, she was a nurse though it seems that she may not have been in employment in 1948/49. At the time of the Somerton Man’s death, however, she certainly lived in Glenelg. Despite living in the location the Somerton Man had visited the day of his death and near where the book had been left in a residents car the nurse denied knowing who the mystery deceased man was or having anything to do with his death…The woman at the heart of this new part of the mystery successfully applied for her name to be kept hidden, claiming it would lead to problems in her personal life and cause something of a scandal. The wish was granted, a decision which many believe was a mistake and massively hindered what was an important lead in identifying Tamam Shud/Somerton Man. It would be years until her true identity would be revealed as Jessica Thomson nee Harkness.”
I am leaning toward the possibility that Carl’s connection was with Jessica, and not Prosper. If a suicide, it seems as if it would be motivated by love, loss, hopelessness than by other usual reasons such as financial, in trouble with the law, or illness. Where was Carl in the over a year since leaving his wife? Where was he living? Where was he working? What was he doing? According to another source Jessica gave a “few” copies of the Rubaiyat to “several men”, there was an inference that she had a few involvements with several men. This is in no way an attack on her character or a judgement of any kind. It was inferred that she was merely somewhat impulsive and later could have regretted some of her choices. I believe it is possible that somehow she and Carl met in that interim after he left his marriage and before Prosper was a ‘sure thing’ for Jessica. I suspect there was an involvement. Their mutual love of poetry could have been a factor in a quick attachment…
Back to the quote above. I find it unusual for her to have stated that if word got out about her involvement in the Somerton mystery it would cause ‘problems in her personal life’ and a ‘scandal’. Now, supposedly this is how she put it. IF the police were not paraphrasing, I think that is very telling. Most people innocently involved in a police query might say “No, I have no idea who this guy is. Never saw him”. They have nothing to worry about so they don’t give it much more of a second thought. To say that if her name got out it would cause her problems in her personal life or a scandal to me infers that she was terrified of something she’d done coming out and getting back to Proper and possibly others.
I think it is likely that she and Carl had some kind of short term romance and she ultimately thought better of it, fled to Adelaide, and hooked up with Prosper who agreed to marry her, raise her child as his own, and had enough money to provide some security. Perhaps the last thing she expected or wanted was for Carl to show up on her doorstep. That certainly could cause a scandal or at least problems with Prosper, and things that would be difficult to explain. She seemed to be desperate to keep her name from being associated in any way with the body on the beach.
Carl, for his part possibly wanted or thought the relationship, if any, was much more serious. They could have seen each other briefly that day in Glenelg. She could have made it clear she never wanted to hear from him again. He could have been despondent enough to take his life. It happens every day.
Of course, no proof of any of this, just like all the other theories, but I do think that given the location where she lived, that Carl was in the vicinity that day, the book they both loved, the torn out page with ‘the end’ secreted on his person, and then within hours, he is lying dead on a local beach, there is at least a good possibility that this is the scenario that happened.
Another point is that IF (I said IF) this is what transpired, I don’t think much of Jessica Thompson, not because of her past or romances. but because she was so afraid of a scandal inconveniencing her life that she let a man go un-named and with relatives left wondering rather than doing the right thing. At the very least she had a lot of secrets and she was obviously a person who was more concerned with keeping them than ever telling the truth. She wouldn’t even tell her daughter things later in life, and I have read that her son Robin did not know who his father was. Tragedy all around just because of one person’s selfishness.
I agree with you – she was a wicked person.
But doubly so because she murdered him.
My lady, he did not die at the beach. His pattern of lividity means he died somewhere else. Suicides aren’t prone to wandering around unless they are undead.
Thank you, C
Casey, We will agree to disagree. I think most know he did die on the beach. Other things can either be subjective or errors—lividity pattern, etc. There is absolutely no evidence for murder.
@Mary (from a few days back) maybe now I’m arguing semantics, but your comment that elicited my original reply was “Carl had the phone number when he came to Somerton. I did not speculate or make that up. That is fact.”
Then later” think it can be presumed to be a fact that Carl had the book in his possession.” and other similar…
presumed to be a fact is NOT fact.
Perhaps you think there are things that clearly should be presumed. But all of them rely on some level of assumption (hence “presume” not “know”) – and I think a lot of that presumption comes from other assumptions we’ve made before. Personally, I think as soon as you make any assumption (even if it seems incredibly likely) you are starting to bias conclusions (because the next assumption is based on other previous assumptions). I know very plausible connections between TS slip and Rubaiyat that don’t involve SM having the booklet that day (or ever). Given he seems to have been at least transient if not near-destitute I think it’s perfectly plausible that he’s bought (or been given) the clothes 2nd-hand and has no idea what is in a small pocket (rolled up tightly an unobviously). Given he may not have died at the scene, I think it’s plausible the clothes weren’t his. I’m not even comfortable (as you’ll see if you search back through much earlier comments on this site) that the TS sliip comes from the Rubaiyat with Jess’ number. I’m not even going to go into issues I have with the tickets (which are well documented elsewhere on this site)….
I’m not telling you what you should or shouldn’t think. I’m not even asking you to agree with anything I say. But when you assert something is an undisputable “fact” then you’re going to get responses that challenge the validity of such an assertion….
milongal, I can’t help but see all the assumptions you make in your above post, as well as misquoting what I have said about fact and assumption. Your remark of “plausible connections” is quite far-fetched in my opinion—much more so than what I and most other’s believe. You don’t know me, and you again presume when you think that because I (we, many others) believe certain things about SM case are LIKELY automatically means that we are then pre-disposed to hang onto certain ideas blindly no matter what may come to light. That is just plain ridiculous! Even the police/investigators had feelings of what was most likely to be the case, but had open minds should anything else turn up to refute such ideas. I do reiterate that I believe some of your so called ‘plausible’ ideas re the TS slip, SM booklet, and his being ‘transient’ or ‘destitute’ are REALLY UNLIKELY and are ‘reaching ‘ to a degree that is not very believable at all. As I have said before, anything is possible, but some things are just NOT likely and I think you have some ideas for which at present there is NO evidence at all nor likelihood for.
@Mary – you seem to miss my point – I’m not proposing ideas that I think necessarily are what happened, I’m merely pointing out there are a squillion explanations that are possible. Whether you think something is far-fetched or not is up to you – I didn’t necessarily say I subscribed to those ideas, merely that such explanations are possible and even plausible. IMO there is zero evidence to suggest he had the Rubaiyat that day in Somerton, and there’s very little evidence that he had ever had it.
You’re right I don’t know you – but you’ll recall this whole conversation began because I didn’t like the claim that Carl having a book with Jessie’s number in it at Somerton was a FACT. Since then you may have tried to walk that back to some degree, but any assumptions I’ve made about a predisposition to blindly hang on to ideas comes exactly from that assertion of fact in something that is far from it.
As for misquoting you, both bits in quotes in my post are copy and pasted from your comments – verbatim – so if you think I misquoted you, more likely I misunderstood what you’re trying to say (and still do).
Would anyone with access to the electoral rolls be able to see where Derry
George was listed as living in around ’48-’51?
Just curious re @SteveH’s comment about Dorothy living at 69 Murphy Street, Elsternwick in 1949.
Mary: George Derry or Derry George and what’s in it for us? This could take time and time is money honey!
@JohnSanders, it was just re the George and the D. George in the small ads for Flat 2/63 Bromby St, South Yarra. Found an ad from Jan 1949 with full name of Derry George, which I assume was the George and D. George in the other ads. Was wondering if Dorothy moved in with him or he had some connection with Dorothy or Carl that could lead somewhere, a link. Was just curious. (See the Lancia ad)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205355515?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F809%2F1949%2F01%2F08%2Fpage%2F19599006%2Farticle%2F205355515
And this is an ad in 1958 with Derry George mentioned and it’s not too far from that address – granted years later, but hey, a bit interesting.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/262424350
I’ll look into how to find the electoral rolls, no worries, got no idea at this point how you find them.
I just listened to Colleen Fitzpatrick on Youtube (Gray Hughes’ channel—He is an insufferable jerk, but I was rewarded with quite a few bombshells about Carl). She went into great detail about Dorothy’s very specific claims on her divorce complaint. I had only heard the few things that seem to be floating about everywhere online but this was quite a shock and an eye-opener, and certainly paints Carl in a far more sinister and even more mentally unstable light. Evidently some of Dorothy’s claims on the petition for divorce papers were: C. was moody, went into ‘rages’ at times and insulted her, he ‘smashes dishes in the kitchen’. She goes on to write that sometimes he is very depressed and goes to bed at 7 PM, that he is a gambler and asks her to give him all her money. She says that C’s mother is very sick and she (Dorothy) takes care of her as well as works, and that Carl refuses to help out in any way. She says he is always writing poetry about death and that he tells her he wants to die. Dorothy also states that one day she came home and the house smelled of ether. She finds Carl in bed soaking wet and she gets him up and he tells her he took “50 phenobarbital” tablets. Carl then supposedly tells Dorothy that if she saves him and he gets better he “will kill” her. Dorothy says there is domestic abuse., and that the police had been called in the past. Supposedly SHE left HIM in April, and must have come back and that HE left HER the following Sept. (About a year before his fatal end on Somerton beach.
Dr. Fitzpatrick then drops another bomb. According to her, in the divorce request papers, when Dorothy is asked her name, address, etc., and her occupation, she SAYS SHE IS A PHARMACIST, (NOT A ‘FOOT SPECIALIST’). This was something I had never heard and supposedly it’s all there in black and white. It opens up more questions regarding the phenobarbital…
So, it paints Carl as quite the mentally unstable abuser, and makes suicide look more likely. Of course is it ALL true, or did Dorothy embellish/exaggerate? Dr. Fitzpatrick also equivocally states that according to “DNA” Jo’s son Robin WAS PROSPER’S CHILD. I didn’t know they had actually proven who Robin’s father was, so it looks like Jo got pregnant when seeing Prosper while he was married, and then after his divorce they wed. I couldn’t believe it, so I listened again, but yes, she said it was Prosper who fathered Jo’s baby. Colleen Fitzpatrick also stated that she and Prof. Abbot are trying very hard to find out all of Dorothy’s background and so far have had no luck. NO records of her in Bute, ever. They have no idea where she went or if she married or anything else about her, but that is what they are working on. She did say that they spoke to Dorothy’s living nephew—Phylis’s (sp??) son—(Dorothy’s younger sister’s son). He said she died in the “90’s” and he remembers his mother sending money for her to be buried, but that they never saw her. Evidently he never met his aunt. It will be most interesting if Prof. Abbot can dig up history on Dorothy after 1947. Here is the interview with Dr. Fitzpatrick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcsNwj_S1js
Rachael Abbott would have done well to read the Oedipus Tyrannos – investigating your preconceptions as to your own parentage can turn out badly. There does seem to be a strong DNA link between her, and Prosper’s parents.
@mary spencer if the domestic violence is true there must be a report with the police somewhere….also are we looking for unclaimed bank funds or letters?
EM, I have no idea if the domestic violence or supposed calls to the police made by Carl’s wife, Dorothy is true. I don’t know if anything Dorothy said in her divorce petition is true, and I would think no one else does either. I only listened to the interview with Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick and repeated what she said here, along with providing a link to the interview. I would think that Dr. F. had access to all the papers that are not online in order to have the info she does. Whether all of Dorothy’s allegations are true, no one can know at this point. Some of it sounds pretty unbelievable or possibly exaggerated. I do think it’s very important for investigators/journalists, etc., to try to find out and document as much of Dorothy’s life as possible. We don’t even know if her claim of being a “pharmacist” is accurate. Surely somewhere there must exist a lot of documents about her—her education, employment, marriages, addresses, children, lawsuits, photos, etc. Finding them is the challenge. So far no one seems to know much about her or where she went after 1947—Except for filing for divorce from Carl in 1951. There must be some info somewhere when she lived with her parents or just before her marriage to C. about where she went to school or where she worked. I don’t know why it hasn’t surfaced. I live in the US and I have no idea how hard it is to find records in Australia. Hoping someone finds a lot more about her, and Carl as well!
As a newcomer to this site – recommended to me by a former contributor – I would like to ask the old lags a couple of questions. I have been reading an article by Rowan Holmes, “an ageing amateur recluse who hides, as far as possible, in the Blue Mountains outside of Sydney, Australia”. from Global Histories: A Student Journal, ‘Microhistory Interrogates a Mystery: On Some Possible New Relations in the ʽSomerton Manʼ or ʽTamám Shudʼ Case”, from 2017. Quite interesting stuff even if a lot of it is irrelevant now we know SM’s identity. But he makes two claims that I would like to confirm.
He mentions Jessica Harkness/Thomson who he says “had been born and trained in Sydney and now worked at the Home for Crippled Children in front of which the body had been found.” Did she work at that home?
Our friend the recluse also states in connection with the “code” found in the Rubaiyat: “The tracings were derived from inscription marks made on the back page of the book as the original code passage was written above it on a page which was then torn out of the book and has never been recovered.” Is this correct?
Holmes quotes from the French writer Louis-Ferdinand Celine so perhaps I might be allowed the same indulgence:
“You can lose your way groping among the shadows of the past. It’s frightening how many people and things there are in a man’s past that have stopped moving. The living people we’ve lost in the crypts of time sleep so soundly side by side with the dead that the same darkness envelops them all.”
From Journey to the End of the Night.
As for myself what I find most mystifying is why nobody correctly identified Carl as SM at the time – unless they did! His photo appeared in the Melbourne newspapers in January 1949. As the Argus of 9 Feb ’49 notes: “Following publication of the man’s photograph in Melbourne newspapers 28 people in Victoria claimed that they knew him.” The man had a wife, several living siblings, in-laws, other relatives, neighbours, presumably co-workers, ex-schoolmates, ex-college mates, fellow sports enthusiasts and card players etc etc, and nobody recognised the face in the photo? You kidding me? I’m not a conspiracy theorist but something smells extremely fishy here. The 1958 coronial inquest added nothing to the one held in 1949. Many of the relevant pieces of evidence were “lost”. Then his wife seemingly disappears off the face of the earth. What the hell is going on here?
Further to my earlier comment here are some quotes from newspapers from Jan/Feb 1949. All from Barry Traish’s Newspaper Files.
“The trousers label showed a well-known make sold in Ballarat and Melbourne.”
From The Mail (Adelaide, SA) Saturday 1 January 1949
“The maker’s label on the suit was that of a well-known tailor who has branches in Melbourne and Ballarat (Vic.)”
From Sunday Mail (Brisbane Qld.) – Sunday 2 January 1949
“Russell St detectives, who are working on a “hunch” that the man is a Victorian, have asked Melbourne newspapers to publish the photograph of the dead man, to see if anyone in Victoria can recognise him.”
“Melbourne detectives say a dry-cleaner’s mark on the man’s trousers is similar to the marks of a number of dry-cleaning firms in Victoria. They have also issued photographs of the mark to newspapers for scrutiny by dry-cleaning firms.”
Both from The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.) Tuesday 25 January 1949
“Melbourne.-The unknown man whose body was found on Somerton beach, Adelaide, on December 1, and the mystery of whose death has baffled Adelaide detectives and doctors, might be a Victorian, Russell Street detectives said yesterday.”
From News (Adelaide, SA) Tuesday 25 January 1949
“RUSSELL St homicide detectives were inundated yesterday with telephone calls from people who said they could identify the man in the “Body on Somerton Beach Mystery.”
A number of women claimed the man was their husband, and that he had deserted them.
Four mothers said he could be their son who left home years ago.
Three men said they recognised him as a man with whom they had worked.
All the informants gave their names and their stories will be checked during the week.
Detectives say it is possible the man was a Victorian, and all angles of the identification claims will be thoroughly checked.”
From The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.) Thursday 27 January 1949
“MELBOURNE, Jan. 26: At least 20 persons have visited or telephoned police headquarters believing that they can identify a man who was found dead on Somerton Beach, Adelaide. early last month.
Each caller has “identified” the man, whose photograph was published in Victorian news papers, as a different person. Melbourne detectives said today that certain unexplained circumstances of the man’s death probably gave rise to the suspicion that he met his death other than by natural causes or suicide.”
From The West Australian (Perth, WA) Thursday 27 January 1949
“Investigations into a number of claims by persons throughout Victoria that they knew the unknown man in the Adelaide “Body on the Beach” mystery had so far failed to prove that he was a Victorian, homicide detectives said yesterday.”
“Two weeks ago Adelaide detectives, who admit they are baffled by the man’s death, thought he might be a Victorian, because he had a rail ticket from Victoria in his pocket. Following publication of the man’s photograph in Melbourne newspapers, 28 people in Victoria claimed that they knew him.
Detectives said yesterday that the claims had been proved wrong, and that the man’s identity was a bigger mystery than ever. From other investigations they thought it unlikely that he was a Victorian.”
Both from The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.) Wednesday 9 February 1949
There were also several quotes about the “baccarat man”.
And that was that. No mention of Melbourne again, Hang on. His trousers/suit were sold in Melbourne/Ballarat. The laundry marks were probably from Victoria. The Argus even reported he had a rail ticket from Victoria in his pocket. What? Why did they drop the Melbourne connection like a hot coal because of “other investigations”?
The whole Dorothy thing seems like another red herring to me to be honest.
Ann O: welcome to the quagmire. Very interesting about the two pairs of trousers, both bearing brands owned by L. E. and M. M. Isaacs, one worn by the dead man still with it’s Stamina/Crusader label in place and the other suitcase pair with care tag intact bearing Marco Elesta-Strap credentials. Strange thing about the Staminas is that police said that they were made by Wilson of Melbourne, some also being farmed out to regional contractors however, Isaacs prided themselves in that all their trousers were not only designed by Marco Manly Isaacs (2AIF Sgt) but also made in their Sydney & Unanderra? factories. So what gives? Surely a company the size of Wilson wouldn’t make Stamina Exact-o-Fit knock-offs and risk breach of copyright laws. Of course Melbourne newspapers wanted their share of the SM spoils and if Feltus in his histerical ‘Unknown Man’ farce copied most of what rags of the day churned out with no attempt to question veracity, then so be it.
Sanders
My opinion on Feltus is based on the abysmal 60 Minutes Australia piece where they lied about SM’s movements on the day before his body was found, paid big bucks to Jo Thomson’s daughter to come up with some cock and bull story about her mother “speaking Russian” and having a “dark side” – only the most shallow amongst us doesn’t – and heavily edited Feltus who kept rabbiting on about spy v spy and so on and so on. Who is that awful bloke who keeps getting in everybody’s face? “We can assume that…[Jo Thomson]…gave him the Rubaiyat?” Feltus: “Well, that’s, uh, just about all you could deduce from the information available.”
Concerning my comments above perhaps the mystery of non-identification is over-egged. A case here in the UK in one of my old stomping grounds, Greater Manchester, is an interesting comparison – the case of David Lytton. Even his own brother, who described himself as a “newsaholic”, didn’t pick up on the mystery for a year, and there still seems to be a debate about how Lytton died – suicide or accident?. See:
https://youtu.be/iFuK4Dd6Asc
By the way Ann O is a nom de guerre. You don’t know whether I’m a Bruce or a Sheila. You don’t know whether I’ve been active on here before or not. Melbourne rags might have gone a bit overboard about SM’s Victorian connections, but the fact is that Carl Webb was a Victorian and the SA police dropped the ball.
John Sanders,
I don’t suppose there are any known links, before or after ’48, between J.B. Bennett and either Prosper or Jessie? Anything else a bit whiffy about “Woof” Bennett? I still have an open mind about him, I mean it’s more than possible to not even know the names of one’s second cousins from other states – I couldn’t even tell you how many I have (let alone be able to recognise the spouses of said 2nd cousins).
The “no one recognised the pics in Melbourne” line, addressed by Ann O, is actually harder to swallow for me. Unless it happened that one or two people did recognise and name C. Webb, but their suggestions were, um … refuted by Doff (“that man is nothing like my Carl, Constable”).
Or those “other investigations” mentioned in The Argus were actually ASIO, the military, or a federal minister saying to SAPol “thank you, its a national security matter; we’ll take it from here, would you mind removing all references to us from your files and playing a straight bat with the press?”
Furphy: by his own admission at his reluctant cameo inquest appearance Dr. John got out of Dodge shortly after giving the nod to constables re their stiff in the back of a converted black maria. Soon after he put out his shingle in a West Australian wheat town in parthership with a long established sawbones but it didn’t last. We’re told that he married a nurse (McIntyre???) and they had two or three billy lids including Nick’s hopefully reliable new informant on family histories ie., Webb, Robertson, Crick, Keane? &c. Don’t know too much more due to JBB’s low profile social habits although he sponsored a UK/Greco family into Melbourne about ’52 and had four O/S arrivals himself between ’59 & ’64 from New Caledonia, Fiji (2) and Singapore. Think he passed in Mebun mid eighties and that’s all I know Gods truth!
……and that was that. No mention of Melbourne again, Hang on. His trousers/suit were sold in Melbourne/Ballarat. The laundry marks were probably from Victoria. The Argus even reported he had a rail ticket from Victoria in his pocket. What? Why did they drop the Melbourne connection like a hot coal because of “other investigations”?
either the adelaide police were extremely incompetent or we are looking at a massive cover up involving an underground ring …but that is adelaide for you
John Sanders
You should have done some more digging on Dr John Barkly Bennett and then you would have found some VERY interesting details.
John married Nan (Nadine) Sparrow, well known in Adelaide social circles and daughter of solicitor and “jolly joker” Cyril Sparrow and his wife Irene, formerly Gross.
Two intriguing facts about Nan.
1) She trained as a nurse at Royal Adelaide Hospital.
2) Before marriage she lived with her folks in – drumroll please – Moseley Street, Glenelg. She was certainly living there when poor Carl met his end.
From WikiTree entry for Cyril Sparrow: “In 1932 Cyril had to sell the home in Port Pirie and come to Adelaide. He was also obliged to sell his nippy little red Chrysler car, and Rene to sell her Blue Italian Spode crockery and much of the furniture. They moved back to Adelaide and lived at Glenelg. At first they lived in part of a house near the beach, to the delight of the children. A year or so later they were able to purchase a house in Moseley Street and employ a housekeeper Marjorie. There was a horse paddock over the lane behind the house and a bakery at the back of the house opposite. After a year at the local State School Nan went to Woodlands in Partridge Street, just a short walk up Pier Street. She could also walk to the beach nearby and down to a little kiosk. Sometimes they rode bikes as far as Brighton to swim, but beyond that there were cliffs not beach. Johnny had to take a bus to town and then a tram to St.Peters School. Don Dunstan came or Nan visited him. He was always skating around. And lived quite nearby in Glenelg a block away. Nan played tennis with a friend who lived in street opposite the side gates to Woodlands. She could visit her grandmother who lived in the same street. Nan and John went to Marjorie’s house once and found her mother ironing in the dark kitchen. The iron was heated on the stove and the room was tiny and hot. In Adelaide, Cyril was in partnership with a solicitor and another barrister who did not do the court cases, which Cyril generally handled.”
Some details from Trove:
From the ‘Tiser 31 Dec 1948 (About People by Lady Kitty):
“Mr. and Mrs. Cyril Sparrow, who will entertain at an after dinner party this evening, have invited guests to their home in Moseley street. Glenelg.”
Must have been a nice house too: “At a cheery Christmas party on Saturday, Mrs. K. B. Gross was hostess to 90 young friends of her daughter Pat. at the home of Pat’s aunt, Mrs. Cyril Sparrow, at Glenelg. Mrs. Gross, with Mrs. Sparrow and Pat, received the guests in the entrance hall, where large bowls of lovely hydrangeas from the Hills were a delightful color note. Mrs. Gross chose black for her smart frock, with sequin trimmed bows at the neckline, and Mrs. Sparrow also wore a black frock, cut with a flared peplum and beaded on the small collar. Pat was attractive In a white frock boldly patterned with hand painted posies in shades of blue and green, and Nan Sparrow wore a crepe frock in a lovely shade of old rose. Shaded pink and blue lupins and Canterbury bells were arranged in the sitting-room, and bowls of scarlet gladioli and white Christmas lilies were an attractive contrast in the dining-room. Charming centre-pieces for the buffet table were silver candelabra filled with posies of pink and blue cornflowers instead of candles.” From the ‘Tiser 16 Dec 1946, Lady Kitty again.
The indefatigable Lady Kitty then reports (‘Tiser 11 Jan 1951): “From Western Australia comes news of the birth of a son to Dr. and Mrs. J. B. Bennett, of Wagin. Mrs. Bennett was Miss Nan Sparrow, of Glenelg, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. C. K. Sparrow, who are now visiting her. Her husband is a son of Dr. and Mrs. N. R. Bennett, of Fullarton.”
Nan (Nadine) trained at Royal Adelaide Hospital. From Adelaide News 9 Feb 1950: “Dr. John Bennett, of Fullarton, and his fiancee, Miss Nadine Sparrow, of Glenelg. will be guests at a pre-wedding party tonight given by Mrs. Howard Dunstan at her Glenelg home, They will be married in St. Peter’s College Chapel on Saturday week. Most of the guests will be university and medical friends of the bridegroom and old Woodlands and nursing friends of the bride-to-be. Miss Sparrow trained at Royal Adelaide Hospital.”
Photo of bride and groom to be here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50200605?searchTerm=nadine%20sparrow
Another photo of the bride: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130793872?searchTerm=nadine%20sparrow
Perhaps her childhood friend, old St Peter’s boy Don Dunstan (a day boy there, living with relatives in Glenelg) had a hand in it all. Now that would be a conspiracy!
Ann O: I did undertake some in research on Nancy Sparrow and her nee family which zi’m sure I alluded to somewhere but, not to the same extent as you. I was particularly mindful of Nan’s recent parting, also in knowledge that Nick Pelling’s has been communicating with Bruce Bennett who would be wary about giving up anything likely to reflect badly on his dad John or any connections who might yet have informstion on Carl Webb’s trip to Royal Adelaide on that first day of Summer so long ago.
Ann O: guess you may have glossed over the fact that Dr. J. B. Bennett’s future wife, Nurse Nancy Sparrow, in 1948 lived with her mum & dad (well connected lawyer), at 105 Moseley St. directly opposite 90A where a Sister J. E. Thomson is said to have been the occupant at the time. Coincedence or not, you be the judge.
John Sanders
Didn’t “gloss over” Moseley Street at all. Mentioned it a number of times. Also if you had made the Sparrow connection why did you mention McIntyre as the nurse’s name in your post of 25 August above. You devious old bastard! Please note I made no implications or allegations of foul play in my post, just pointed out some coincidences. If Nan (Nadine) lived dead opposite Jessica Thomson (as you say) then that is surely interesting. Surprised you didn’t pick up on my ref to DON DUNSTAN, future premier of South Australia, schoolmate of Nan’s bro John and friend of Nan, who at one point lived nearby. Dunstan had been active in Labor politics in SA since his time as a student at Adelaide Univ in the mid ’40s, graduating in 1948. He was even a communist for two weeks. Wasn’t it speculated that Jessica Thomson had communist sympathies?
Another little vignette from our old friend Lady Kitty (‘Tiser 5 Feb 1950):
“Former Woodlands schoolfriends of Miss Nadine Sparrow, and University contemporaries of her fiance Dr. John Bennett were invited by Mrs. Howard
Dunstan to a 6.30 pm buffet party at Glenelg yesterday. Zinnia heads in quaint little bowls dotted the buffet, and tall silver candelabra holding colorful posies made a charming design. Mrs. Dunstan received the young people. She was in black georgette inset on the corsage with a deep yoke of fine beige lace. Nadine’s frock of black taffeta, mid-length, had the new cuffed effect to the wide neckline, and large pockets set at the waistline gave a peg top look to the skirt. Smoky blue, chosen by Mrs. C. K. Sparrow, was cut with panels of pleating, floating on the slim skirt.”
Howard Dunstan was Don’s uncle: “In 1940, Don commenced three years at St Peter’s College in Adelaide, living for the first two years with his uncle and aunt, Howard and Ada Dunstan. In his final year at St Peter’s, Don boarded together with his sister, Beth, who had been evacuated from Fiji.” From the Don Dunstan Foundation website.
From the ‘Tiser of 28 May1948 (Lady bloody Kitty again!) another Moseley Street connection: “In the unitary room at the Adelaide Children’s Hospital on Wednesday, a bridge party will be held to aid the candidature of Miss Heather Green, in the popular Nurse Competition, in aid of the Nurses’ War Memorial and Florence Nightingale funds. Reservations may be made by ‘phoning the president (Mrs. Howard Dunstan), Moseley street, Glenelg.” Carl Webb, as we know. loved solving bridge puzzles.
Mrs Howard Dunstan was a very important figure in Adelaide society: “Although Mrs. Howard Dunstan decided to have a long rest when she relinquished the arduous duties of Lady Mayoress of Adelaide, which she performed while her father, the late Sir Jonathan Cain, was in office, she bad put herself whole-heartedly into helping others, that it was impossible to let go her interests in so
many charities. Her official duties may be no more, but her days are taken up
with these interests, which still continue to develop. As a member of the board of the Children’s Hospital, she has a paramount thought for the small sick inmates…Mrs. Dunstan is also a member of the Red Cross Society and a vice
president of the auxiliary of the Royal Adelaide Hospital.” From the Adelaide News 25 May 1940.
More about Mrs Howard Dunstan (and a photo) can be seen here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48280936?searchTerm=glenelg%20howard%20dunstan
My colleague/psychiatric patient/alter-ego/sworn enemy (you pick) Steve H, formerly contributor here, had contacted your favourite Adelaide Univ Prof Derek Abbott, and Abbott speculated that Doff had lived in Adelaide before moving to Bute. See Steve’s posts from a couple of weeks back. If any link could be found between Doff, Nan Sparrow and Jessica – even Don Dunstan – well, I’ll leave you to join the dots!
Ann O: I do my best to stick to the middle ground, trying to keep on track, though tempted occasionally to check Lady Kitty’s social gossip. Dunstan for instance in my opinion is a mere sideshow that doesn’t lead us anywhere we want to be at. OK I’ve checked him out ages ago on some other left of centre lurk when he was doing trips back and forth to his birth place Nadi, via Singapore and Honkong same as our Dr. Bennett but found no corresponding dates. As for the sneeky McIntyre name drop, there had been a John (nothing) Bennett hooked up with one and I dropped it to stir the pussum (note the ???s as a disclaimer). Smething you missed and I didn’t which I thought I’d posted a week ago but can’t find, is that Nan’s dad Cyril, who died at work in his swanky William St. Chambers aged 54 from memory, had a very cosy relationship with former barrister and justice Kenneth Kirkman. By 1948 KK had been top honcho of S.A. Commonwealth Security since 1941 and was short listed to get directorship of ASIO that went to his mate Geoffrey Reed. Once again an interesting but likely irrelevant fun fact.
A lady over on Somerton man Facebook page (Prof. Abbot) found a photo of a dinner for Swinburne students. She suspected one guy in the photo was Carl. I think it is very possible. I have isolated his photo, made a close up and had it animated. I have posted it on the Facebook page (Facebook ID Elizabeth Smith). If anyone is interested, you can view it there and let us know your opinions.
@Mary Spencer,
Unfortunately, I am on Prof Abbott’s blacklist so I can only post once per day.
But here is my more-like/less-like analysis of the images:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18pViA1SjdjZRK6XYIm4D7x7oxcWUY0Lj/view?usp=sharing
The Nazi is Rudolf Mons – who before I knew about Carl Webb I was trying to track as SM. It implies that Carl was a doppelganger of Mons. It also could imply that someone else thought he was Mons by facial recognition – someone like Tibor Kaldor who may have seen Mons in the 1930s in Vienna. It could be a motive for murder of a thought-to-be Nazi by a Jewish guy.
One interesting thing was Carl disappeared to Monbulk in 1933 and Mons appears in the Austrian alps in 1934. There is no record of Mons before 1934 – I have checked with all modern experts on Heinkels and Mons. He also has no genealogy. He is more impossible to find than Carl.
It is only the fact Carl reappears before 1943 when Mons was MIA that messes up the plot. I doubt the Australians would fly Carl (as Mons) out to Algeria to bomb the Rohna full of US troops – though technically Mons didn’t bomb it as he had aircraft problems and was never seen again.
I liked the idea Mons was one of the 2 Nazis working on guided bombs at Woomera (Guardian 1999) – as he was the expert and had practised test runs before the Rohna with guided glide bombs.
photos 4 ,5 ,6 ,8 and 9 are carl….also try using his brothers face in the mix
We will likely never know the full story, but we can try to get closer and closer. Recently I made what I think is an important post on the “First photo of Carl Webb” and Somerton Man pages, but I’ll put it here too (with a couple modifications to help with context)…
Browsing through others’ submitted school team photos on this page, I was taken aback by the very stylized W on the name board each time the sign appears: sometimes just within the word “Swinburne” (the Melbourne college of one properly-aged C. Webb, who did take Engineering there), though in at least one case it’s every W on the whole sign. It always appears at least once: within the college’s name. I think that the letter bears a striking resemblance to those in-between looking ones on the Rubaiyat page. Seeing that there are no other, clear examples of the letter W among the page’s jumble, perhaps that’s the only thing those strange scratchings are meant to be. Maybe it was just Webb’s signature way of writing Ws… a style he picked up in school? A nod to his alma mater, perhaps?
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/file/e961abba-0b35-4f19-b694-a6482eece17c/1/pho020i0010.jpg
Perhaps I’m late to the party with this, but I don’t recall having heard talk of it before…
Also, I’ve since noticed something else on this site’s page about Webb’s marriage certificate. Looking at it through the “W” lens, it seems that same letter in his signature might even be a stylized version of the Swinburne/Rubaiyat one:
https://ciphermysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/07/image-3.png
I think it might help to support the “Swinburne W” proposition, although it could simply have been quite commonplace to write cursive Ws with tails on either side back then… but were they normally that long?
What do you think of the theory?
I’m sure many cipher mysteries readers, like me, are admirers of the fiction of JG Ballard. Of course Carl Webb certainly found his own ‘terminal beach” in 1948.
Perusing my copy of the Complete Short Stories I came across the story ‘The Beach Murders’, originally called ‘Confetti Royale’ (1966). According to David Pringle: “This was Ballard’s first fully non-linear story, in effect the first “condensed novel.” …”Confetti Royale” is a narrative broken up into non-sequential paragraphs, each headed by a mysterious word or phrase in bold face, with those headlined paragraphs presented in alphabetical order as elements of an insoluble puzzle.”
To quote Ballard’s own introduction:
“Readers hoping to solve the mysteries of the Beach Murders – involving a Romanoff Princess, a CIA agent, two of his Russian counterparts and an American limbo dancer – may care to approach it in the form of the card game with which Quimby, the absconding State Department cipher chief, amused himself in his hideaway on the Costa Blanca. The principal clues have therefore been alphabetized. The correct key might well be a familiar phrase, eg PLAYMATE OF THE MONTH, or meaningless, eg qwertyuiop…etc. Obviously any number of solutions is possible, and a final answer to the mystery, like the motives and character of Quimby himself, lies forever hidden.”
Although many are still attempting to “solve” the riddle of the Somerton Man mystery in such convoluted ways I think the “heart of the matter” – remember Graham Greene’s Major Scobie who confiscates a letter because he thinks it might contain secret codes (and who eventually commits suicide)? – will probably turn out to be much simpler and more banal, although maybe indeed “forever hidden”.
Ann O: I knew bits and pieces about Ballard’s experimental stuff, but never that he hinted that that story’s alphabetized headings might be solvable to produce a key phrase – that’s a really interesting tidbit!!!!
If true – and Ballard was also a bit of a leg-puller, if I remember right, so this is far from certain – then this puts it broadly in the same puzzle genre as that novel where you have to rearrange all the pages into their correct order (whose name I have of course forgotten).
Very interesting, thanks! 🙂
A few days or weeks ago, difficult keeping up with all the interesting peripheral side-show name games currently being offered up for consideration, that of Carl’s brother in law Gerald Thomas Kean was mentioned (like a breath of fresh air) in connection to his employment with the J. C. Williamson stage production Co. Doing so reminds of a related post on his (Jerry as in Tom & Jerry) likely links to sister-in-law Dorothy and her cousin Dr. J. Bennett in connection with Carl’s staged offing at Somerton Beach on 31st November 1948. Therefore it’s worth repeating that Gerald’s employment as a stage set and costume machinest of thirty years standing with Williamson was likely to have been in Adelaide for the world premier of it’s Australian ballet ‘The Listeners’ on 1st December 1948. The gala event was staged at the company’s Tivoli Theatre in downtown Grote St., just a short stroll from central station with it’s convenient baggage check in facility in North Terrace…in ‘case’ of contingencies if you get the inference.
…that was Jo 7th inst. @ CM ‘do you know this man’ thread…comes with an “Oh wow” refrain from her/his Brazilian sidekick supporter Pat
@em
I have tried with Roy in the mix and he is in the red zone around 60-70% – depending on which image you start with of the clay mask/other as the point of comparison. You may be gaining 1-5% if the person looks left/right/straight matching the direction of the face. Also image quality is a big factor. I have been unable to get Roy’s face into the green zone in my comparisons. MxFace facial ID says Roy isn’t any of the others. As it also says Mons isn’t Carl.
Mons moves back and fore (green to red) depending on which image is used of the mask, Mons and Carl. In some comparisons, Mons is more like the mask than Carl’s corpse aged 43.
There were other factors that were interesting – both potentially with a scar on the left arm. Mons would have had a blood group tattoo removed if he survived MIA. The crease marks above the eyes were identified to me by a military investigator who IDs bodies as ‘potentially’ matching. Though he could not be certain. He would never confirm an ID without original photos or the body.
Carl’s suitcase was also something that may have been given to a former Hay internee in 1941.
What I am saying with Carl is he may have been mistaken for Mons by Tibor Kaldor who resided in Vienna in the 1930s. Why was Tibor hanging around a factory if he was a trained lawyer/linguist? He had his Australian nationality he could move on. I suspect he was also being offered Israeli ID.
If you know about the John Demjanjuk story he was sitting in a cell as they were building the gallows in Israel. Multiple witnesses swore on oath he was the Nazi who murdered people. He had been identified as a Nazi from a photograph. But at the last minute, a photo expert said it was a Russian fake. So Russia was creating fake Nazis to be tried and executed after WW2 while the real ones got away. Demjanjuk was unlucky again that they decided he was another Nazi, more witnesses swearing on oath and was sent for trial again in Germany where he died.
@ John Sanders
Oh, wow! As far as I know there isn’t a 31st November…
@ Nick, John Sanders, David Morgan
Now we have an extensive list of people, I think we should take up David’s suggestion of a “who was where” in November- December 1948 via a thread…
Oh wow! Well spotted Pat 😉 🙂 🙂 🙂
@ John Sanders – how do you know JC Williamson was linked to Joanna Priest’s ballet, “The Listeners”? Joanna Priest became Roma Eagan’s teacher & mentor…
em, the photo that I isolated and had animated is number 6 in Dave’s post. It sure looks like Carl in his younger days to me. It has a comparable rating to the other known photos…I have it but can’t upload it here. My email is on my website. I am happy to forward it to anyone who is interested. It was part of a group photo of a dinner held for Swinburne students.
Dave, Thanks for the link to the facial recognitions. I am really struck by number 4 and number 6—the one I uploaded. Look at the hairline also on those two together. I think if number 4 is definitely Carl, then number 6 has to be as well. They sure look like the same person to me… It would be interesting therefore if more information could be found on the Swinburne dinner. The original group photo was uploaded on Prof. Abbot’s Somerton Man Facebook page. Supposedly it was some dinner for only day students, but that may be debatable. I would like to know the circumstances of the dinner, and how/why Carl was there, IF he indeed was. The dinner was evidently held in 1925. I think it highly unlikely that someone else was there who so closely resembles Carl at that time. I think the number 6 photo is him.
Pat: Oh wow! and well spotted on being quicker off the mark than our Keane moderator who is usually ahead of the pack in picking my deliberate mistake for the day.
Mary Spencer:
The same photo posted on Swinburne’s site also mentions “old engineering Swinburnians” in its title. So if Webb wasn’t a day student at that time, but had instead already left the school by that point, it seems he could have attended the gathering as an alumnus (though his name is admittedly not on the included names list):
https://commons.swinburne.edu.au/items/9f69de1b-e197-4e9d-ad72-9223fd83295e/1/?search=%2Fhierarchy.do&index=1&available=3
Jo: Joanna Priest was connected by means of the staging of her world premier ‘The Listeners’ ballet (not her first) at an apparently exclusive J. C. Williamson leased performing arts venue, Adelaide’s Tivoli theatre; and yes most of us here have commented in the past on her association with a talented young dancer Roma Egan. Thanks for reminding those who may not have been cognisant of that fact.
@ Mary Spencer,
Maybe someone could contact Swinburne Library. Nick? Jo? Maybe they can help if you tell them about this specific dinner celebration? I think all these pics could be Carl, he was a young lad during the late puberty growth phase and his appearance would change quickly including the receding hairline, lots of testosterone!
Mary Spencer:
Here are some of those photos along with others that might be of him, put together by Pat. Most of them are also taken from Swinburne’s website!
https://i.imgur.com/c8mMkgu.png
Jamie, Great finds!
With a nod to the Colonel, am in favour of a map titled “Where were they? 31 November 1948” – it could be speculative, with a few holes, but not complete fabulation….
@Jo
Brenda Webb’s 2nd birthday 1st Dec 1948.
@ Francoisse – re August 14 2022 post:
That’s not Carl’s sister Gladys squatting with the Communist Party in St Kilda back in 1946, it’s a totally different Gladys.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141172550?searchTerm=gladys%20may%20scott
Carl’s sister Gladys sounds positively charming and lovely – there’d have to be some photos of her out there in the archives somewhere, gonna start looking, seems to have been very social and involved in lots of charitable events and societies …. h’mm, she even gets her outfit described in detail in the paper – of course it’s a georgette.
Poppins –
There are two of the Gladys’ indeed! To be honest, it was disappointing to find the second one. The age was a bit of a give-away. (It’s more likely to be her – the second one – but the tab remains open.)
Not lots of charitable events…Just a few of them. It’s odd. It made me wonder if there was deafness in the family. The earlier effort, with the mayoress, was such a specific cause.
She gave her phone number away and lost her dog twice. Rex!
I think this is Carl’s sister, Gladys in October 1946.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204949714?searchTerm=Mrs%20L%20w%20Scott
@ Poppins
Great find! I hope it’s her!
Great find Poppins!
Thanks @Pat and @Misca, and yes, gotta be sure we’ve got the right one, no worries.
Okay, so I think this is Glady’s husband, Essendon town clerk. He married again after Gladys’ passing it would seem, a Marjorie Constance. His job as town clerk could be the link to Gladys being at Mayoral events, etc. My opinion only, of course.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243424757?searchTerm=moonee%20ponds%2015%20coats
Here’s Gladys selling more tickets:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149320912?searchTerm=moonee%20ponds%2015%20coats
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149320977?searchTerm=moonee%20ponds%2015%20coats
She was very involved in the community, Red Cross, Essendon Ladies Benevolent Association, the list goes on, she sounds amazing really. So there’s gotta be some good photos out there in the archives, someone will find something! Maybe carl and Dorothy attended an event in the early days of their marriage, who knows.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205529097?searchTerm=essendon%20mr%20l%20w%20scott
Poppins: couldn’t have been anyone but you. Many thanks for being alert to the antics of a disturbing element in Francoisse who had the audacity to insinuate that a dear creature like ‘Our Glad’ could be before the court as a law breaker consorting with communists.
I am intrigued to know how Carl Webb/pr other tore the slip of paper with Tamum Shud from the poetry book. If it was me I would have torn from the bottom of the page – a larger piece, So how would it be done?
If he cut it with the scissors/knife it would be neater. If he burnt it with a cigarette it would have a burn mark. It should have been folded so he could tear from the centre. But there is no evidence of a central ridge on the remaining page.
Anyone tried to tear a rectangle from a page keeping all edges intact and no ridge?
His fingernails were too neat (usually) to use a fingernail.
Videos of how to do it would be useful.
My solution would be to rest the page on the drawer part of a box of matches with the top edge wet – and press down on the wet edges with the other part of the matchbox to create a letter box on the page. But where would he have learnt such a trick?
Watching a factory press coins/rectangles of metal?
But is the rectangle the same size as a box of matches?
In reply to
Pat
on August 6, 2022 at 8:22 pm said:
Regarding the C.Webb identified as working at the Singapore Casket Company in 1947. You can remove him from the list of possible. That man was my Grandfather Carlo “Charles” Webb. He passed away as a very old man in Australia. Pictures of him can be found in Media articles. Mostly attending high profile activities in Singapore well into the 1970’s. The Singapore casket company was the Webb family business since before WW2.
@DM exactly. Which leads us back to -was this staged as a suicide? i tink a lot of factrs point to yes
@carl webb, Thanks, glad to hear he had a long life! Cheers!
What are the chances?
Trousers
https://imgur.com/a/4gOtMl9
and
Sher
https://imgur.com/a/7HaNlMF
and
Sher
https://imgur.com/a/Dd1gLlO
and Carl at Sher’s Rd Point Tools.
I recall trying all available avenues for confirming identity of Carlo “Charles” Webb of Singapore Casket Co., (Pat’s find) with no success. Not to be deterred I then sought to track down the deceased Patricia Margaret Cuming and try to fathom why she chose to jump to her death from a hotel room window in November 1947. In a way I’m sorry that I did and for that reason I shan’t inflict others with the tragic details, but to say her husband Bob was lost in his Mitchell bomber January 1942 and I think she had travelled to Singapore from Toorak hoping to find his grave but without success…Someone might like try to track down Carlo Webb to test validity of his grandson @Carl Webb, April 30 ’23, 9.45am.
David Morgan: I’m pretty certain that I know the fellow who ditched the remote (wireless controlled) airplane at Somerton days before the main event. All I can reveal at this stage is that it weren’t likely to be Carl Webb or even the Mr. Read with the F…… phone number.
…In reality, it could have been one of three brothers George, John or James, all skilled in latest wireless guidance systems, but for youngest sibling Jim, a highly decorated (BEM) electrical engineer who was was killed in an auto wreck a year following his RTA from Libya in 1943. The family including sister Margaret were all raised in Glenelg pre WW1, father Douglas P., having his trading business in Partridge St., but by the late thirties after dad’s passing the kids had moved along to Farrer St. then Madge/Bickford Tce., Somerton Beach by Alvington CC home. For want of better knowledge that’s where my story ends; right about the time of your (Mr. Read’s) ad for the missing airplane in November 1948.
@John Sanders
Good grief, that model plane is a rave from the grave. My very first post on this site (this thread on Aug 5 2022) was about it, pointing out that it was the Somerton Park in Melbourne, not Adelaide. The article was in the Melbourne Argus of 30 Nov 1948 –
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22705734?searchTerm=%22mr%20read%20fl1408%22
– and the telephone number FL1408 is only found in Melbourne and Sydney on a Trove search. I’m sure I needn’t remind you about Australia’s old phone numbering system:
“Until the start of 1960 Australian telephone dials had a centre label (or in very early ones, the number ring) marked with letters representing individual numbers. The Australian letter-to-number mapping was A=1, B=2, F=3, J=4, L=5, M=6, U=7, W=8, X=9, Y=0, so the phone number WM1246 was in fact 861246. The letters were only memory aids for users and had no technical role.
As I understand it, the first portion was alpha followed by a maximum of four numbers. Apparently operators and subscribers were considered unable to remember a string of more than four numbers in a row!”
(From Old Australian Telephones website)
I bet you still rely on the old bush telegraph so you don’t need to remember ANY numbers!
By an ASTONISHING coincidence on 30 Nov 1948 an advert was placed in the Adelaide Advertiser with a Somerton link:
“MODEL Plane, green body, white wings, vicinity Colonel Light Gardens. Good reward. Finder please contact V. Tulett. 21 Walker st., Somerton.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43793462?searchTerm=%22model%20plane%22%20somerton
You will remember the model plane found in Somerton Park was “a black high-wing monoplane, fitted with one engine, and trimmed off with a red colouring.”
V Tulett was in the habit of losing model planes. On 2 Nov 1950 the ’tiser carried another ad:
“LOST. vicin. Military rd., West Beach. 7 ft. model plane, red. Finder contact V Tulett. 21 Walker st.. Somerton Park”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45667935?searchTerm=%22model%20plane%22%20somerton
Sorry, nowt to do with your George, John, James, Tom, Dick or Harry.
Happy New Year to one and all!
Thanks to Lord CoB for keeping my seat warm. Not sure I’d stake my house on Carl Webb being psychotic, an ether addict, or into magic and talismans. On this thread on 16 August 2022 I wrote ” One could speculate that he [CW] was gay, mentally unwell, a criminal, or simply estranged from his family and fancied a move to Adelaide, but who knows?” I should have added an alcoholic or drug addict as further possibilities.
Jeez! I’ve been reading about another sad case in Melbourne, just five minutes walk from Bromby Street, which I am sure all Australians know about.
“On the evening of the 2nd of December 2010, 24 year old Phoebe Handsjuk was found dead on the floor of the refuse compactor room at the bottom of ‘Balencea’, a luxury high rise apartment building, located on St Kilda Road Melbourne. It was discovered that she had fallen feet first from the 12th floor refuse room, down the waste disposal shaft to the compactor below. The Toxicology report revealed Phoebe to have a blood alcohol reading of 0.16% and high levels of prescription drugs.”
(From Phoebe Handsjuk website)
Police revealed that Ms Handsjuk, who had worked reception at the Linley Godfrey celebrity hair salon in South Yarra, had initially survived her fall and bled to death in the dark after trying to crawl out of the garbage bin. They believed it was suicide but the coroner found it was a case of misadventure because she was drunk or sleepwalking. The family believe she was possibly murdered.
Oddly her (much older) boyfriend, Anthony Hampel, who she lived with (and met at the hair salon) had a later relationship with a 25-year-old model, Baillee Schneider, who died with a gold cord wrapped around her neck at her home in Moonee Ponds mere hours after the two broke up. “Ms Schneider’s death was ruled a suicide caused by self-induced asphyxiation – which her parents find hard to believe.” (news.com.au) Hampel, an events promoter, is the rich son of a Supreme Court Judge so amateur sleuths and conspiracy nuts have had a field day with this case as well.
Lord Cobblers aka Loud Haw Haw,
Guess I’ll leave it up to you and original poster David Morgan to locate Melbourne’s Somerton Park, only one I can find in Vic is at Sale, 200 Km. away from memory. As for Col. Light Gdns. Adelaide where Mr. V. Tulet’s white winged (wireless?) job went down, same day, that be of more interest to SM punters. As you self servingly point concede, a real coincidence Indeed, indeed.
@ Johnno – it’s near the airport, I went there recently: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerton,_Victoria
@John Sanders
Somerton Park is in Campbellfield, near Somerton on the northern edge of Melbourne.
From The Argus, Melbourne, 16 May 1949 :
“BRUTAL ATTACK ON WAR VETERAN
A 66-YEAR-OLD military pensioner was brutally attacked at North Campbellfield on Saturday night.
The pensioner, Charles Parrington, of Somerton Park, Campbellfield, was admitted to Royal Melbourne Hospital with severe head and facial wounds.
After the attack, Parrlngton crawled 30 yards and then collapsed. He was unconscious for two hours and then staggered about a mile before he was found by a local resident near Sydney rd.
Police were told that as Parrington was leaving Campbellfield North railway station a man offered to show him a short cut home across Somerton Park. On the way Parrington was attacked and robbed of £4.
Detectives found a number of Parrington’s belongings strewn along the roadway for more than a mile. His walking stick, broken at the handle and blood-stained, was found in a paddock.”
David Morgan in his original comment thought there was a link between paddocks and horses. Of course WE know that in Strine a paddock refers to “a field of any size that is used for farming”.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22728770?searchTerm=%22somerton%20park%22
Only a few days before SM’s body was found in Adelaide another body was discovered at Somerton, Melbourne (20 Nov 1948):
“Man Killed in Safe Blowing
Gordon John Alderman, 23 years, of Evans-street, East Brunswick, was killed by pieces of flying metal when a stolen safe was blown open at Somerton in the
week end.
His body was found at the side of an unmade road; about half a mile from Sydney-road, Somerton, at 9 a.m. yesterday. He had been dead for some
hours.
A large Iron safe which had been blown open was found half a mile from the body. Pieces of the safe, door had been blown about 60 feet from the safe.
Police believe Alderman was taken by car from where the safe was blown to the spot where his body was dumped.
The safe was stolen from the home of Mr. Richard Beechey, Dawson-street, West Brunswick, on Saturday night. It contained about £5 in threepences.
A post-mortem examination at the City Morgue yesterday showed that Alderman had a large wound in the left side of his head.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205669972?searchTerm=%22gordon%20john%20alderman%22
Alderman was a keen Carlton supporter and he worked at the Coburg Iron foundry. His mother said “He didn’t like gangster films…and respected the police.” (Sydney Sun 28 Nov 1948) He was identified by his fingerprints. The Coroner found that “Exhaustive inquiries had been made and numerous companions of Alderman had been Interviewed, but none had thrown any light on Alderman’s movements that night. Unsuccessful efforts had been made to trace the car.”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205362526?searchTerm=%22gordon%20thomas%20alderman%22
“ALDERMAN.—The Funeral of the late
GORDON JOHN ALDERMAN will
leave his residence, 106 Evans street,
East Brunswick, THIS DAY, at 3.30
p.m., for the Coburg Cemetery.
R. B. PENN, Coburg. FL1475.”
(The Argus, Melbourne, Tue 23 Nov 1948)
Note the FL phone number!
Funnily enough there was an explosives depot at Somerton.
“In early 1941 it was decided that a new ammunition storage depot was required for the use by the Army [later shared with the Navy, and finally taken over entirely by the Navy in 1946]. Two potential sites were chosen…The Somerton site was preferred due to its concealment from roads, and its general isolation. In late 1941 expenditure for the Somerton site was approved and building began shortly thereafter.”
(From RANAD website)
Don’t know what was self serving (your go-to insult for me) about my comment. Perhaps you are still embarrassed at your response to Taffy’s comment about the model plane – “David Morgan: arguably the best news in years”. (John Sanders on August 5, 2022 at 9:48 pm). A little research would easily have disabused you of that notion boyo!
….by the way, looks like your neat fob job theory on Adelaide phone (letter) prefix numbering system be flawed as I explained eight minutes before your comment on DM’s initial model airplane post that you ignored, more fool you. Same for your brash brush off of my sibling family that moved between beachside dwellings at Ferris Ave., & Madge/Bickford Tce. late 30s to ’48 according to the reliable S & Mc. street index section. I might add that V.Tulett was not with the Holdfast Bay aero club, membership of which had unfettered access to ethanol, methanol and caster oil fuel no questions asked.
jo: you’re referring to Somerton on Somerton park Road out “near the airport”. We be looking to find a Somerton Park apropos 1948. Only two in Australia are the ones I mentioned, Sale Vic. and the one near the beach at Holdfast Bay..Sorry!
Robert Nowak,
Your (usual) totally irrelevant Somerton safe cracking death diversion ploy be duly noted. Of course I was well aware of the lost plane from comment in an earlier thread, not your later side show snatch & grab from David Morgan’s like incident. I was further allerted by an unrelated event apropos Walker St. (now Walker’s Rd.) Somerton Park and my first meeting with top legal eagle C. Sparrow (ptp) late of Moseley St., Toorak Rd. & Bermagui. Cyril was tight with G ‘Man’ Reed during WW2 and as such had defended several absconded German nationals at mates rates. How about that?
Uh oh, for a mo looked touch and go for George’s bro, with MO saying no go for inlistment due to ‘hyper toe’ or sumit. Fortunately his opinion was overidden by higher authority and Jim went on to win the BEM, dodgie pinkies and all. I wonder whether big brother George? was born with the same affliction and that is what kept him out of the service, if yous know what I’m getting at?
…Just in, ie., Army Doc says “hyper extended toes which OVERLAP”. Sure sounds familiar what?…
The fairly uncommon condition Clinodactyly or overlapping toes runs in the family generally speaking. So we might expect that to have been the case with Somerton Man’s siblings, that is if we’re to accept Paul Lawson’s inexpert description of his client subject. We might consider whether members of Carl’s family were known to be so afflicted? Certainly not Roy Webb who was afterall readily put into an infantry battalion upon inlistment. Deserves some though surely; You out there Byron D.
My last comment on Somerton Park and the model plane.
From the Argus, Melbourne Dec 9 1939:
“MATES WANT PEN FRIENDS
JIM HAMILTON Somerton Park,
Campbellfield, wants a pen friend interested
in leading, engines, and aeroplanes”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11286009?searchTerm=%22somerton%20park%22%20aeroplane
See also ‘They Fly Silently and High’, from the Argus Jan 29 1949:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22693765?searchTerm=%22somerton%22%20aeroplane
“With no room to fly at Fawkner,
however, the gliders are loaded on to
trailers every weekend and trans-
ported to Somerton, where they are
assembled and flying begins. ”
The modern park itself is situated between Somerton Road and Leader Street in Campbellfield.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@-37.6432207,144.9434526,3a,75y,354.74h,82.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMshPxhlIaASD2GaZEygmJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Bob: There’s also a Somerton in NSW with a park too; and from memory it’s called Riverside Park. That’s where I learned how to fall off a horse incorrectly, with the best chance of inflicting maximum hurt upon on my six year old phys. Some good
fishing along the Peel in them good old days but “Mind the plurry snikes [sic] son”. “Yes mother I shall”…like bloody hell I shan’t y’ol fuss budget being the muttered after comment. Who gives a frog’s arse about some park reserve at Camberfield for muck sake ‘marron’.
David Morgan has sometimes suggested that Carl may have been mistaken for Rudolph Mons or a Nazi migrant. Danny Ben Moshe’s documentary, “Revenge: Our Dad the Nazi Killer” is currently screening in Australia on the ABC (it’s also been shown at Jewish film festivals in the UK and elsewhere). It details how up to 600 former Nazis who migrated to Australia in the post war period died in shadowy circumstances. The jeweller and watchmaker father of the three brothers on whom the documentary focuses was likely a member of Jewish vigilante group operating in Australia…
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/the-family-secret-thats-shining-light-on-a-shadowy-moment-in-australian-history/nyvcadxni
In the case of the Somerton Man, the mistaken identity and Jewish partisan revenge killing is not my favourite theory but its certainly not completely implausible…
This looks like Roy Webb won some prize in 1935. Sun Shots – a magazine? But I am unable to view the article.
It sounds like a sports picture magazine with competitions – perhaps photos of teams, jockeys, horses, footballers etc. I can only guess. Like Pix?
https://imgur.com/a/uoJiPFZ
If it is a magazine it may be worth finding if it is in an archive. It may have covered local events.
How is it when Roy died Charlie and Dorothy who were “together” in 1943 didn’t place an advert announcing his death? They were an entity of Mr and Mrs Webb yet they didn’t act grown up. He relied on his family sticking only ‘his’ name insulting Dorothy. Yet for the rest of the children they remembered they were married. They put their partner’s names. I find that very curious.
At no time was Dorothy ever mentioned – like she never existed. Her family were probably the same they never mention Dorothy in death notices – like she never existed.
i was searching for Rubaiyat and I came across the plot of Rosetti finding the Rubaiyat in a bookshop and showing it to Swinburne and it became a success.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/271346414?searchTerm=%22rubaiyat%22
Carl with Swinburne technical college and Rubaiyat is also strange coincidence. If it wasn’t for Swinburne filling his head with poetry and electrics he might have been a happy baker.
Carl should have met Wendy and Shirley and gone on long bike rides with them. His ideal companions. He had the legs.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247306643?searchTerm=%22rubaiyat%22
Chatting with Claude AI about the RoK it says the poem is gender neutral in both original and Fitzgerald translation. So it can be viewed as heterosexual or homosexual or asexual. The gender of participants is imparted by the reader.
In both versions (Orig and FitzG):
The direct second-person address “Beloved”/”bosom friend” carries no specification of male/female roles or distinct courtship.
So Fitzgerald retained the same ambiguity of audience and human focus in rendering this verse into exalted Victorian lyricism.
So it doesn’t affix Carl to being a gay man who got married or a straight guy. He can be ambiguous.
Claude AI classifies the RoK as Sui generis. Effectively in a class of its own.
In other words the poem gives no clues about Carl’s sexuality.
Wendy and Shirley were joined by a 3rd female companion Miss Sharpe on one short trek to Adelaide. The dog seems to have been eliminated from their travels. They had to make shoes for it as its feet became sore.
Miss Sharpe lived in 99 Alexandra st, South Yarra. Another better-fit athletic young woman Carl missed when he met Dorothy. What was the physically fit young guy thinking when he met Dorothy who wasn’t as physically robust as him.
They both kept diaries (or a diary) of their extensive bike travels – someone must have that. It would make a great book/film.
They felt men were intimidated by their adventures so they attended things anonymously to have a normal time.
I was hoping to find Carl had been inspired by their travels and their RoK quoting to get on his bike to see Australia. Hence his tanned muscular lower legs.
David Morgan: AI seems to be on the ball regarding sexuality. What does he tell us about the all most important assessment of whether SM was left handed, right handed or ambidextrous. I figured out without his/her help that Somerton Man favoured his right but no body, far as I can recall, bothered to make a judgement on my claim. Surely someone out there would have an answer as to what hand, if any, Carl might have favoured n’est-ce pas?
@Js,
It believes either right-handed from the evidence or unresolved.
Hello, this is Copilot….[crap]
The Somerton Man was an unidentified man whose body was found on an Adelaide beach in 1948, in a case that has puzzled experts and amateur sleuths for decades¹. One of the questions that has not been conclusively answered is whether he was left or right handed. According to some sources, there are some clues that suggest he was **probably right handed**, such as:
– An unfinished cigarette was found on his right collar², which could indicate that he was smoking with his right hand before he died.
– A witness observed him raising his right arm and then dropping it limply², which could imply that he was trying to signal or gesture with his dominant hand.
– There was a faint mark on his left arm that was too faint to say for certain if it was a vaccination mark³, which could mean that he was vaccinated on his non-dominant arm, as was common practice at the time.
However, these clues are not definitive and there could be other explanations for them. Therefore, the question of the Somerton Man’s handedness remains **unresolved**..
Source: Conversation with Bing, 24/02/2024
(1) Somerton Man – Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerton_Man.
(2) Somerton Man Charles Webb’s true identity revealed in family …. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-21/somerton-manfamily-photographs-revealed-/101643524.
(3) List of facts we do know about the Somerton Man – Derek. https://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/wiki/index.php/List_of_facts_we_do_know_about_the_Somerton_Man.
(4) en.wikipedia.org. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerton_Man.
@Js
I guess the tape winding on the scissors scabbard might be a clue. Do lefties wind clockwise or anti-clockwise or sew differently or tie knots in ties or laces differently?
I push my hair with my left hand to the right and I’m a rightie. Perhaps we all break the rules somewhere.
i thought i just pasted this.. possibe repeat..
Hello, this is Copilot. ….
The Somerton Man was an unidentified man whose body was found on an Adelaide beach in 1948, in a case that has puzzled experts and amateur sleuths for decades¹. One of the questions that has not been conclusively answered is whether he was left or right handed. According to some sources, there are some clues that suggest he was **probably right handed**, such as:
– An unfinished cigarette was found on his right collar², which could indicate that he was smoking with his right hand before he died.
– A witness observed him raising his right arm and then dropping it limply², which could imply that he was trying to signal or gesture with his dominant hand.
– There was a faint mark on his left arm that was too faint to say for certain if it was a vaccination mark³, which could mean that he was vaccinated on his non-dominant arm, as was common practice at the time.
However, these clues are not definitive and there could be other explanations for them. Therefore, the question of the Somerton Man’s handedness remains **unresolved**..
Source: Conversation with Bing, 24/02/2024
(1) Somerton Man – Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerton_Man.
(2) Somerton Man Charles Webb’s true identity revealed in family …. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-21/somerton-manfamily-photographs-revealed-/101643524.
(3) List of facts we do know about the Somerton Man – Derek. https://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/wiki/index.php/List_of_facts_we_do_know_about_the_Somerton_Man.
(4) en.wikipedia.org. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerton_Man..
@JS
His football picture indicates he was a leftie. Dominant hand on the top.
He had nicotine stains on one hand …
I am right-handed but was just spinning and catching a pen in my left hand and not looking. It would look like a dominant hand to a stranger. But I spent years training both hands to do it as a form of de-stressing. I often had inky palms at the end of a day at work. More ink = more stress.
DM/PB: Yes re the football pic, I’m sure that was brought up early and, as for the
nicotine, from memory both hands (fingers) were said to be heavily stained but I really don’t recall where that came from, Dr. Dwyer merely noted the fingers being cyanotic and none of the other Inquest witnesses made mention. Reckon it might have been a Feltus fairy tale.
Dave Morgan: What does AI have to say about the Carl Webb signature being a pointer either way, the slope could give a clue, but that depends a lot on how he was taught cursive as a child.
I just thought I post this to how arms folded with left on top and colorised by AI to show ginger hair.
https://imgur.com/gallery/GyEkbYr
I don’t know whether I care whether poor Carl was left handed or right. What interests me is how we try to solve mysteries and craft narratives from the bits and pieces of life that get left behind, in newspapers, archives and family photos and how good people are at tracking these down! I love that people from diverse places became invested in an Australian story- transnational digital sleuthing! (How good are Pat and Misca! And Steve H when not throwing a digital wobbly! And enduring kudos to Furphy for that first photo find!). I love that I keep encountering people from the past who once haunted my neighbourhoods! Charlie became a cipher for journeys across time and place! Thanks Nick for providing the digital bus we’ve all ridden on! A bit like “Further” for these times!!
His right hand, according to Pete Davo, himself no slouch at research.
https://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2019/12/a-spy-in-their-midst.html
Sorry, I wasn’t “picking favourites” with my last comment – simply making the point that people far from Australia have skilfully engaged with great resources like Trove and the National Australian Archives to try and piece together an Australian story of the past… I have a strange kind of comradely regard for many you Cipherians! I have family histories and mysteries that I’d like to follow up through British archives and sources – they just don’t seem to be as intuitive to use, nor as free and accessible!
Australia was also a much smaller country back in the 1930s and 40s, with a strong tradition of magazines and local newspapers and quite a well resourced and fastidious bureaucracy! (@ Johnno – even the Drover’s Wife was a magazine reader – they were essential reading for bush women and Henry’s mother Louisa Lawson penned a great magazine – the Dawn). The Camperdown Chronicle is still going strong and is still in the same block as where Emma Keane’s old fish shop once operated!
In 1942 Juicy Fruits were 1.5 pence. I have a vague memory of chewing gum machines in 1968 selling Wrigleys gum for 3 pence. The machine had a lucky draw where you paid nothing. It was probably every 12th use or something like that.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8230348?searchTerm=%22juicy%20fruit%22
My older brother had been shown the trick to take his shoe off and hit the machine to get a free packet. I never dared to do that as we always walked past the machine on Sunday after Sunday school. You had to look for the lightning strike.
If chewing gum machines existed at train stations he may have put in 2 pence. Though I never saw juicy fruit in a machine in the UK.
South Melbourne seems to have had an analyst determine juicy fruits did not comply with standards.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162549182?searchTerm=%22juicy%20fruit%20gum%22
It is interesting the only place you would see “Juicy fruit chewing gum” advertised was at the bottom of war bonds. That might be a clue to Carl’s interests from 1940 to 1945. Perhaps he was a war bond collector and his buried treasure chest may be discovered when the SM code is broken.
Unclaimed money
ROBERTSON, DOROTHY JEAN (Owner: ROBERTSON DOROTHY JEAN) $43.30 JALNA DARLINGTON COLONIAL MUTUAL LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY LIMITED
Did we check this one before – I forget.
Jo: thanks for that input; I’m sure you get a kick out of what you and ladies have achieved as a means of diverting all interest away from the conceot program to identify Somerton Man. Nonetheless I must intervene in order to stay on track with the subject under discussion, namely the need to ascertain left or right hand favoritism which FB Carl Webb supporters obviously have no interest in. As for we the few (me and one other) who be at odds with the alternate mob mentality, such knowledge could prove to be the Holy Grail for proving or disproving the case for an SM candidate identification.
Peteb: I’ll second that re Pete Davo, certainly no lurch when it came to research and a heart of oak to go with it. He’ll be sorely missed by all who relied on him for family tracing and Special operations input, especially Gerroff and Zorba 332.
@Jo I too have completed a Phd. Seven years, ago, I was expecting to be required to publish and present a public talk on a Masters thesis, but they changed that to a draft Phd. thesis and public talk. One semester was the time I had been allowed.
David Morgan: the only gum vending machines in Aust. to my knowledge in the fifties were the XY brand at tuppence a pack of four in tablet form with every fourth pack being a freeby. Strangely enough we still can’t be sure whether SM’s half pack of Wrigley juicy fruit was in stick or tablet form, only hint coming from an unaccredited, undated newspaper sketch displaying the four tablet candy coated variety.
….Wrong inits. Dave; it was YZ gum and had a wise owl motif atop the dispenser.
@JS,
I follow the theories and contribute to see where they lead. If you can show some evidence that a person can’t be ambidextrous. I remember a school friend who broke his arm and was forced to become a rightie for quite some time. I think he didn’t return to his left hand for writing though he was then obvioiusly ambidextrous. I think at the time we had a discussion about his kicking foot. I forget whether he remained left or switched to right as well. What is the word for ambi-foot-rous?
I follow bizarre family leads for my own investigations. It may be a hope to bump into your main candidate in that journey. Travelling in hope.
It is also surprising how research can push the buttons of other researchers. In one case a person’s dad was pals’ with the victim’s dad. I asked him why he was chasing the murder of a sort-of fictional woman and not the family friend. Total silence. In another case I mentioned the former mayor of Seattle which led to the strongest rant about that mayor of Seattle. If I had said Hitler was a great guy I wouldn’t have got such a strong reaction. In another case I was branded as an anti-Italian troublemaker when in fact I had spent my Summer trying to prove her husband didn’t commit a crime. She was nice to me afterwards. In another example the son of a former policeman had lied to me for about 2 years. When I finally proved that a female police officer was involved in the case he let rip. He showed a deep pathological hatred of a former policewoman. I was surprised he didn’t kill her as a teenager. I believe they have both been forced to work on the same plot together by a film director.
I’m wondering if our well meaning sleuths might eventually come to their senses on what evidence formed the basis for Ms. Fitzgerald’s determination of long lost Carl Webb as Somerton Man. It came about through her inadvertently connecting him with a tie from an abandoned suitcase, contents being generally at odds with the dead man’s professional trade & calling. Her subsequent ID then came about through a form of substantially unproven DNA testing of single ‘dead’ hair plucked from a plaster facsimile of SM that she was then able to trace back to Carl Webb. This being hrough a brother-in-law Gerald Keane, wrongly assumed owner of said T. Keane tie. Jerry’s K’s descentants twice removed conveniently just so happen to have been members of Derek Abbott’s University Facebook page…Yeah fellow CM sportsfans and pigs might fly too.
@ Curio – Onya! I hope you didn’t get distracted along the way by historical mysteries and forums, like a few eminent Cipherians, and myself.
@ David- I was left handed as a young child but switched to my right after breaking my elbow, not long after I began school. I’m pretty well right dominant now, but reasonably ambidextrous. My dad and grandmother were left handed…
@JS,
I’m not sure what can be inferred from FB group membership. If I was researching you in 50 years via genealogy I might locate your relatives and talk with them.
In the case of the 1970 Isdal Woman I located the daughter of an 80-year-old guy who had been on the hydrofoil next to her who was in the FB group. I thought I should be careful contacting 80-year-olds who might have illness or dementia. After an initial discussion with the daughter she said “he wants to speak with you”. So then we had a lengthy chat via FB. His written English was exceptional.
But it was shocking to think NRK and lawyer Dennis Zacher Aske in his book didn’t think to contact someone sat next to the mystery woman on the hydrofoil. They didn’t want to track down the guy who sold her the umbrella. They willingly accepted a police document that said a postcard proved an America woman (I call Valentine to protect her ID) was still alive. I have spent nearly 6 years trying to find her. I have located some of her addresses but yet she never appears at funerals etc with relatives. She is like Kaplan in North By Northwest. I had one of the World’s most exceptional DNA/genealogists Linda Ziemann helping me but then Lockdown came and her family died of Covid19 and she stopped researching. But she had completed almost a full genealogy of the family (without telling me!) and given hints to their pals from weddings including a former mayor of Seattle.
Valentine’s gran had crashed into a fuel truck and had her head chopped off by the truck running over her as she had flown out of the vehicle. I’d like to see the magic physics involved with that. Her later home in Seattle was involved in a serious fire in 2021. Before she arrived in Norway there was a serious fire in the Osark hotel in Seattle. Woman catching fire, gran hit by fuel truck, hotels catching fire and homes catching fire. Her family seems to be plagued by petrol and fires. Her uncle was a fireman. The last taxi from the train station before the Isdal Woman died was to the street where the fire station was located. On the 23/11/1970 just 1000 metres where the fire took hold of the Isdal Woman was a fire truck. They were looking the wrong way.
Jo: tried to get back to you over at Peteb’s but comments were closed. So who was it that burnt the damned scones, King Alfred or Arthur?
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101580130
@ Johnno – if you’d asked me who’d stolen the Scone I’d tell you it was Ian Hamilton, on Christmas morning in 1950.
As who who burned the scones the question should really be was it Alfred or Ragnar Hairybreeks… Both were before my time…
Do you think I should have another go on the Chase or something?
Thanks for a good run at it JS … takes one to know one
Jo: you mean the Jock what took the rock (door stop) from the Abbey? bio says Ian Hamilton be Clan Robertson; only hope our Dorothy destiny’s don’t get wind of it.
Chase? … Got me there … unless you mean Chase Young, def. end with the 49ers.
Jo: Trouble with our mate be, that he don’t seem to be able to differentiate t’wixt a horses mouth and its arse, eg., One day Gerry Feltus’ knowledge of SM can’t be flawed; the next the bloke’s all over the place, and that’s the same flamin’ thread.
Be nice mate .. don’t want everything to go pear shaped again do we?
Peteb: just doing my level best to convince you and other disillused punters that they’re backing the wrong horse that’s all.
@Js,
The maths is against you.
The confidence level is reported to be 99.9% that Carl Webb is the Somerton Man.
Additional Confirmation: Stuart’s sister, Cristy Webb, volunteered for a saliva test and was found to be “right in the middle of the range” of a DNA match with the Somerton Man. Cristy Webb’s position in the middle of the range indicates a strong likelihood of her being a relative of the Somerton Man.
Typically second cousins falls somewhere in the middle of the range.
The following chart provides estimates of what different numbers of shared centimorgans might mean in terms of relationships:
Parent/Child: Around 3500 cMs.
Full Sibling: 2500-2900 cMs.
Half Sibling: 1400-2000 cMs.
Aunt/Uncle: 1400-2000 cMs.
Niece/Nephew: 1400-2000 cMs.
Grandparent: 1400-2000 cMs.
First Cousin: 700-1000 cMs.
Second Cousin: 200-300 cMs.
Third Cousin: 50-100 cMs
CentiMorgans – no relative (I think?)…
@JS,
You would need to show your suspect was also a relative of Cristy Webb and therefore a closer relative of Carl.
It does take me back to Roy and Carl swapping. But all I have is a photo of a facial ID match to Roy surviving the war.
https://imgur.com/gallery/3qBsmv8
Take out a full page ad in an Aussie/US/Brit newspaper and show this image and see who comes forward to say “it’s grandad”.
David Morgan: A positive Carl Webb ID determination based on a single rootless hair plucked from a plaster of paris bust collecting dst for seventy three years is not likely to impress the current team of DNA experts or the S A Coroner in their deliberations for mine mate.
DM..forgot to mention the T. Keane tie precursor that Ms. Fitzgerald thought to be the icing on the cake for Keane connections; or more correctky her cart before the baker’s horse … of course.
DM: your Imgur pic be a dead spit for a youngish Dwight Eisenhower, apart from the protruding lugs which Roy missed out on too; Maybe it’s you should be doing the math.
@JS
it is technology and it’s maths I trust it more than family members who have 3rd hand memories of who is who in a photo. I was struggling with a photo of myself yesterday thinking it might be my older brother. So I don’t trust my own interpretation of faces. I use technology.
This clearly shows post-War Roy with either a great dentist or false teeth finds pre-War Roy Webb. It doesn’t find Eisenhower or Carl Webb. If you could ask the Pimeyes developers they would say it was either a similar or the same person then if they tested it with other Facial ID such as Mxface and OpenCV they would agree it was Roy or some perfectly constructed doppelganger. They would never find a similar matching example to prove a mathematical doppelganger theory apart from a twin!
These are facial ID mathematical proofs – not guesses or theories. it is what it is!
https://imgur.com/gallery/vqQvEah
@ David Morgan,
Regarding CW relative’s DNA mean matches with the supposed hair sample, you/they need to show that if the test had been done to any other of those 4000 (i.e., any of living relatives of any among the 4000) it would NOT have resulted in the same average matching. I am not aware of any comparison test done, nor have you claimed they were done. Were they done?
The Astrea DNA was an averaged DNA footprint that matched 4000 cases, so they say (just playing within their reasoning game). So, if you picked any of the 4000, found their living relatives, and tested, you could technically have results matching not only the one chosen from 4000, but even match, as a mean/average, the test results of CW relatives, as compared not to the exact TSM DNA, but to the problem hair DNA that had to be mapped in an average way. To rule that out, tests must be done, if one wishes to claim being scientific. Did they do comparison tests with others randomly selected from 4000 (other than CW relatives) and compare them with the results from CW relatives?
The point is, the DNA of the questionable hair sample is not what can be used to “prove” the CW connection, as claimed. Other markers, of course, can be used, and the above does not mean TSM could not be CW. We are talking here about problems with reasoning and method used for claims made.
Besides, we should keep in mind the presumptions also feeding the 4000 sample. The 4000 is only a set among those who have submitted their DNA to online DNA databases, in both the Australian and world contexts. There could be many other cases not even represented in the 4000 pool, among whose relatives could also be found those whose whereabouts were unknown, and have not been reported in online family trees. Millions perished in the two world wars. It would be too simplistic, let alone scientific, to assume that online family tree and online DNA databases represent all humanity in the past 100 years.
Take the example of Tibor Kaldor. He had no relatives in Australia, did not bear any children, and his parental and other relatives died abroad. Let us say he was TSM (he was not of course, but let us assume). Is there somehow a guaranteed representation of his relatives in the DNA databases today? The only way to test that would be to do comparison tests, asking for fresh new living relatives, if any, to take DNA tests, and not assume simply because one case matched in the 4000, that must be it.
Why is it assumed that the 4000 database is an adequate and exhaustive representation of the ACTUAL, and REAL, record of who died and whose relatives went missing? If you do a search in “places unknown” you can actually find folks with the right age range having one to places unknown. Was CW magically the only and only unique case with the right age being reported missing, and would all such right age cases be reported missing in Trove, as if it is an absolutely inclusive record of the times?
They have used the Astrea problem-hair results as a scientific window dressing for proving a finding they could have arrived at by other more mundane means (the Keane, relatives’ stories, as John Sanders reminded).
Jo: Dunno about Mary’s 1938 debutantes ball pics including a nondescript Dorothy Robertson amongst other budding roses on display. For one I doubt that Dorothy Jean would have had sufficient social graces for such promotion, and secondly wouldn’t she have been too old at just shy of eighteen for those times of course.
The F2 facial ID software is used in Canada and the US to identify corpses against photographs. I asked about the Pyjama Girl and Philomena Morgan. I’ll wait to see if they respond to either give me demo software or they test the images themselves.
If I can get the demo software I can use with images of Carl and the SM corpse.
http://faceforensics.com/Documentation.aspx
It seems I am not the only person who believes facial ID is a useful forensics tool. They say the UK’s ChildBase system uses it.
“Face Forensics’ f2 is a highly advanced face recognition system which provides both one-to-many and one-to-one matching, as a complete application, an SDK, or as a web service. It will:
• Search a database to identify an unknown face
• Check an entire database, or multiple databases, for multiple records of the same person using different names
• Detect and recognize faces in a video stream in a controlled environment
• Verify that an individual is who they claim to be
• Identify an individual from part of their face in a forensics or investigations environment”
Note; Not a https site so not secure. A little bizarre for an org that hopes to work with the police. They will not gain any orders omitting that step.
Steve H You didn’t finish your point when you wrote “You lost me”.
It seems of late we lost you.
One for @JS to read. Bent coppers and genetic genealogy.
https://www.chronline.com/stories/washington-state-man-released-as-cold-case-murder-suspect-sues-detective,335766
David Morgan: Bent pennies and genetic genealogy are better left to those more familiar with that line of investigation. Crime writer and dickless tracy Ann Rule
who witnessed Ted Bundy’s send off in Seattle would fit the bill, if only was still with us and all.
…yeah, Florida State pen not Seattle. Thst was where Ted’s pal Ann Rulr died in ’15.