Hi, I’m Nick Pelling – and this is my “Cipher Mysteries” blog (formerly the “Voynich News” blog). It grew out of my long-term research into the Voynich Manuscript and other unbroken historical ciphers. If you don’t find some romance and mental adventure in uncracked ciphers, you must surely have a heart of lead, right?
The codes and ciphers discussed here have remained unbroken for a very good reason – they’re all really, really tricky, each in their own way. For example, some people say that trying to crack the Voynich Manuscript is not unlike attempting to solve a million-piece jigsaw with your eyes shut: but some days, it does seem to me that the person with the jigsaw has it fairly easy. But wherever on this scale you place it, the Voynich Manuscript remains a truly immense challenge – the Everest of code-breaking.
Fig.1: A passing Voynich nymph greets Nick in the traditional manner
My ambition is, by contributing to the cracking of all these unbroken ciphers, to raze this whole field of study to the ground, so that I can start climbing the next mountain along. Perhaps an even higher one! 🙂
Nick I was looking through some old boxes of books last night and ran across a collection of Horizon Magazine; These were a hard cover magazine published in the 60s and 70s on various artistic, architectural, historical and anthropological subjects. Anyway the January 1963 issue has a piece on the VM. Good pictures and a discussion of Newbold’s. No new info, just interesting.
Hi Nick,
I picked up an old postcard in Paris 2 months ago at the antique market outside Père Lachaise cemetary, the photo on the front is also incidentally of Père Lachaise, but on the back is a curious ciphered message, which is of course why I bought it! The postcard was printed around the 1920’s but I’m not sure exactly which year. It was sent to a woman, whose address is now occupied by the French Federation of Psychologists. Naturally I’m very interested to know what it says, and at first glance it doesn’t look like a simple cipher, ie. there may be several characters for each letter. Would you be interested in taking a look?
Josh
Are there any working groups for folks to come together in a legal, non-compete environment and discuss their decoding theories?
Niki: in the UK, I occasionally host a Voynich pub meet, usually at an historic London venue (yes, an old pub), so if you happen to find yourself near London please free to say, it’s always nice to have a visitor to plan & fuss semi-impromptu meetings around. 🙂
As far as online theory discussion groups go, there’s an active (though terrifically noisy) Voynich mailing list at voynich.net , though I personally wouldn’t particularly recommend it for anything apart from teeth-gritted lurking. Each to their own, I guess. 🙂
Hi ho, Nick!
I hope your Vol 2 of Voy is proceeding at a pace that is satisfactory to you. Will you be giving all your fans a “heads-up” whey you are nearing publication?
My feelings aren’t going to be injured if I get only a Yea or Nay from you. My offer to proofread still stands!
beedee
Hi Nick, read your article on the WWII pigeon cipher. Ive been trying to solve it, something in your list of 13 squadron places matches something ive found. Are you working on this cipher?
Narissa: I did some experiments in Excel to test the suggestion that it might be a poem code, but nothing seemed to really fit. Others have suggested some form of double-transposition cipher, but I was going to re-read Between Silk & Cyanide before going too far down that route. May I ask what kind of a cipher you think it might be? Oh, and good luck, whatever you’re trying! 🙂
I havent decided what type of cipher it is yet but deep down i dont think its a OTP. The bit in your article that attracted my attention is the June 1940 anti submarine part. I wont say anymore yet, but ive followed you on twitter however you havent used your account for ages 🙂
23|24|25|26|27|28|29|30} {grammar|spelling|writing|grammatical}
Hi Nick, if you are bored and need a break, Im posting ciphers to crack on my blog. Simple 5×5 substitution box.
XMEMU TZKYB RZTDV TLDTO NDKKY
TOFFZ LZVXX YGREF NEPDR RXUXW
First person to crack it and give me a copy of the 5×5 grid that I used Ill publish name on my blog.
Narissa: not unless you found it attached to the leg of a dead WW2 pigeon… 😉
Nick,
Sometimes the most important codes were hidden in plain texts. This is true for unit fraction finite math used for 3,500 years. Egyptian, Greek and medieval square root is a case in point.
At the end of the background section of the linked Planetmath page (one of several that decode unit fraction and Mayan math codes) is an emerging mathematical proof.
Anyone want to finish the proof of the ancient square root math works in today’s math?
I’ll be appreciative …
Thanks,
Milo Gardner
Sacramento, California
i was wondering how to contact someone i think i may have found a possible writer of the VM i did some research and i think i may have come up with an idea but i would like some help with it can some one please reach out and give me a hand please.
Ralph: sure, drop me a line – nickpelling at (the same as the first part) dot com – , always happy to have Voynich-related stuff bounced off me in confidence. As I guess you’ve already found out, most well-known early Renaissance names have already been proposed during the last century, but there’s plenty of room for one more. 🙂
Hey Guys I have a cipher I have not been able to use and its used allot in my household and I have not been able to crack it or figure it out. Is there anyone here who might be able to??
here is a link to my posting with an explanation
http://jefferyjohnson.net/2013/02/24/
or just go right to the jpg of the code i scanned from paper
http://jefferyjohnson.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/decrypt.jpg
Many Thanks
sactech,
If your cipher is a simple substitution cipher, here is a solution that fits:
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/images/sactech/
“Lepto” may refer to “Leptospirosis”, an animal disease that can be transmitted to humans. Maybe “lepto levels” refers to some kind diagnostic test. Or maybe some other solution fits on that line.
The overall solution is a good fit but I’m not 100% certain it is absolutely correct, due to the shortness of the cipher text.
What Dave said. 😉
hi nick check this new site of me…and please all lovers of cryptography too!!!!!……………………….nick if you dont mind i will post your blog link into mine site!!!………..everything here nick they are perfect,keep going your good work!!!!…..thanks
Well if you can’t not see I decoded the voynich manuscript; I would say it’s impossible then, because my transcription follows logic!
Thomas: if only we all used the same logic, life would be so much easier. 😉
Nick? What do you think about the voynich? Can you at least agree its an anagram based cipher and since it came from Northern Italy does logic dictate it would be Italian?
Hi Nick,
When talking about the Voynich script most people refer (without mentioning it) on the EVA transcription although this transfer may have nothing to do with the contents of the text.
EVA is important due to the consistent presentation of the glyphs in a corresponding Roman alphabet’s equivalent with which a computer aided analysis becomes possible.
I am now able to present a new analysis (complete N-gram followed by similarity sort), where slight differences are reported, and thus spelling errors of various origins may be discovered:
http://goo.gl/wo1ZO
Joachim.
It might be helpful for you to learn that the Voynich Manuscript has been written in Northern-Italy, in Bologna in 1560-1568 by Dr. Gerolamo Cardano (1501-1576), prof. in medicine at the University of Bologna (1560-1570). The coded language is Italian (or Latin). I have not yet decoded the book. If ever !!!
This is not merely a theory. The above information has been deducted from the Voynich Manuscript itself, but has widely been neglected by researchers.
Menno Knul
(The Netherlands)
1.If Gerolamo Cardano commissioned the manuscript , what language was it originally in?
It does not appear to be based on the works of Dioscorides or Galen.
Dear Menno,
Where’s your working-out?
Dear Tricia and Xplor,
–
I am still working on a text for my website, but I can give here the information needed for discussion.
–
1. If you look at the green banner of this excellent blog of Nick Pelling you see the design of a castle from the Voynich Manuscript. This castle shows walls with so called swallow-tailed merlons (battlements). The only region, where you can find this type of merlons, called Ghibelline merlons, is Northern Italy as a result of a controversy between towns, which had chosen the side of the German emperors in a controversy with the pope. This has been neglected or overseen by the researchers of the Voynich manuscript, but it shows clearly the Northern Italian origin of the Voynich Manuscript. The uncoded language of the Voynich MS should be Italian or Latin. This is confirmed by subscripts with the Zodiac signs.
–
2. The combination of subjects treated in the Voynich Manuscript (varying from botany, jars with mixtures of medical plants to astrology/astronomy) and the coded presentation of the manuscript indicates a scientific (alchemistic) community as can be found at universities, which rules out towns without a university. I decided for the oldest university of Europe in Bologna for further investigation.
–
3. If one looks for an alchemistic scientist in medicine with knowledge of botany (medical plants), astrology, astronomy, mathematics (encoding) and in my view urban architecture and water supply (through tubes), one cannot miss Med. Dr. Gerolamo Cardano (1501-1576) , who wrote more than 200 books over many subjects (some of them published in Leyden and in Amsterdam) and developed a code, which is still known as the Cardano grille (which has been used recently by prof. Gordon Rugg to decipher the Voynich MS, without result).
–
4. It cannot be just by accident, that in the same years of the professorate of Cardano (1560-1570) the University of Bologna realized a botanical garden (1568). I regard the design of the six spheres as a philosophical plan for the development of a ‘healthy city’.
–
5. I realize, that carbon dating shows a much older date for the Voynich manuscript (beginning of the 15th century. I doubt this. In my opinion the Voynich Manuscript is much younger. I would like to see a carbon dating of the Vermont MS 2 to compare the results.
–
6. The remains of the castle in the green banner on top of this blog still exists in Bologna. It is the Palazzo Re Enzo, built 1244. The castle itself collapsed in an earthquake, but the lower part with the entrance still exists.
http://www.lucianomorpurgo.com/foto/Bologna/slides/47.Palazzo.Re.Enzo-orig.html
–
7. In my comment on Mona Lisa I wrote, that young Gerolamo Cardano was a son of lawyer and mathematician Lazio Cardano, professor at the University of Pavia. He was a friend of Leonardo da Vinci, painter, inventor, etc. Young Cardano met Da Vinci, when he was 14 years old.
–
I hope you enjoyed my cultural approach to the Voynich Manuscript.
Menno Knul
(The Netherlands)
1. Crenellations of that kind occur not only in northern Italy. There is no certainty that their inclusion on f.86v is meant literally. On ths same point I differ from Nick Pelling who discussed them in his book (2006) and here on his blog.
– subscripts with the Zodiac signs. If you mean the inscriptions which are taken as month-names: not my area but most people believe they are in tan Iberian language or dialect. Some suggest Occitan; others Catalan Jewish.
– What scale we should read for containers in the ‘pharma’ section is problematic; that the plants there are primarily medicinal is not established. I assume that whatever their primary use some (and perhaps even all) had some application for medicine. To be sure, we’d need to know surely what each is.
Neither books nor academic training are needed to practice the implied skills, nor to create a means of encoding.
3. “If one looks for…” quite.
–
I do not know what your ‘6 spheres’ might be.
–
5. “I realize, that carbon dating shows a much older date for the Voynich manuscript….” yes, and so will many of your readers.
But don’t worry. No-one has written about the manuscript since 1967 without being considered by all others to lie somewhere in the range between ignoramus and lunatic and while my opinions differ from yours, in that respect there is no difference between us, I should think.
Menno,You are doing very good. The place you are thinking about is Friuli. Italian as we know it did not become the official language until 1861. In the 15th century they would have spoken native dialects.
A place of note would be Aquileia a major roman city. In 1420 Venice annexed the territory of Udine.
Dear Diane,
1. Thanks for joining the discussion. I can promise you there is much more to come, but discussions should start somewhere.
2.I would be interested to learn from you, where Ghibelline crenellations of the same type and from the same period of time occur outside of Northern Italy, the province of Udine excluded.
3. I am not interested in hit-and-run type of opinions as long as they are not embedded in a comprehensive geographical and cultural environment. The Voynich Manuscript may be a unique document, but it did not fall out of heavens.
4. It should be 9 spheres (86v).
5. I have not yet seen a document, that relates the contents of the jars with the individual plants. This would be useful, because the ingredients have a coded name, which should be retrieved in the texts accompanying the individual plants.
6. Of course one can be sure as soon as the code has been revealed. We all know that. In the meantime we can collect as much information as possible to improve the chance to decode.
Dear Xplore,
The Italian province Udine (Venice, Friuli, Aquileia) is out of range for the Voynich Mansucript. I’d rather concentrate on central North-Italy.
Menno Knul
(the Netherlands)
The general idea is, that the Voynich code is an alphabetical code. If so, the code would pay for the whole text and its features would be seen in the whole text. This is not the case. Folios 1r/v to 25r/v are excluded. All highly frequent words on -edy can be found from f26 r/v onward only, but lack in the first 25 folios. Apparently they form a separate category. The conclusion can only be, that the Voynich code is not an alfabethical code. For a numerical code would pay the same.
chedy (502x), shedy (426x), qokeedy (305x), qokedy (272x), okedy (155x), lchedy (119x), okedy (118x), okeedy (105x), oteedy (100x), qotedy (91x).
Dear Meno
You say
The Italian province Udine (Venice, Friuli, Aquileia) is out of range for the Voynich Mansucript.
… but you give no reason for your opinion.
Dear Diane,
Venice kept aside of the Guelph and Ghibbeline conflict with the pope to protect its free trade. Thus the city has not been listed as one of the Ghibelline cities. The drawing of a Ghibelline castle in the Voynich Manuscript shows, that it is a Ghibelline castle. If one takes into account, that the Voynich Manuscript has scientific contents, one has to look for scientific communities in the Ghibelline area: Milano, Pavia, Padua, Bologna. Bologna had the oldest university of Europe (1088) and expanded its scope to medicine (botany) and mathematics. I have shown that the depicted castle still exists: Palazzo Re Enzo in Bologna (1245). Si non e vero e ben trovato, isn’t it ?
Menno,
Forgive me, but I think you have not troubled to question the evidence before deciding certain things.
“..The drawing of a Ghibelline castle in the Voynich Manuscript shows, that it is a Ghibelline castle”.
You are merely presuming that the work was made by a Latin Christian, and that the drawing is meant literally, without proving or even testing those assumptions.
Further, if you cannot explain why that folio contains the imagery it does, and show by comparative examples that Europeans had the beliefs expressed by other motifs in that map, questions must remain:
such as – was the image drawn with an intention to be literal or, on the other hand, is it like the sketches in the Zibaldone a Canal – purely ornamental? Are there maps where the same type of crenellation appears without meaning ‘a Ghbbeline structure’ – (answer is Yes there are – it can mean more generally, ‘imperial’).
Do such crenellations occur outside Italy – yes they do. In Crusader-era defences from Caffa to the eastern Mediterranean, where ‘Guelf’ vs Ghibbeline had no importance. That was a problem only for some cities of the Italian peninsula.
“f one takes into account, that the Voynich Manuscript has scientific contents”
You may call them ‘scientific’ but people have been doing ‘scientific’ things since the fourth millennium BC. I’d say that the contents were pragmatic.
” one has to look for scientific communities in the Ghibelline area” – that doesn’t follow. Any person could draw those crenellations who had seen them, and the whole idea that the Voynich, in the early fifteenth century represents ‘science’ in the sense you imply verges on the anachronistic.
Milano, Pavia, Padua, Bologna. Bologna had the oldest university of Europe (1088) and expanded its scope to medicine (botany) and mathematics.
There is absolutely no evidence that the content of the manuscript was first created for a European university. Who used it, how and when, is another question entirely. I agree that the disorder it now has may reflect use within the pecia system – but students didn’t study contemporary authors and the most wanted texts were those already centuries old. A chapter from Archemides’ work turned up in southern China! Clearly the copyist is unlikely to have been to university anywhere, let alone in Bologna – but I daresay university students copied the text eagerly after it had arrived in Europe.
I have shown that the depicted castle still exists: Palazzo Re Enzo in Bologna (1245). Si non e vero e ben trovato, isn’t it ?
Nick Pelling first discussed the possible implications of these crenellations, and offered possible identifications. I have read a number of others.
I myself could have argued, that it represented an imperial castle in Hierapolis or Smyrna or Greece… but it is impossible to achieve such certainty, given the number of castles and fortifications destroyed since 1415.
Dear Diane,
Thanks for your reply, which reflects the same points as your earlier reply. That does not matter, because it sharpens the mind.
1. There is one drawing of the Sagittarius in the astrology section. The drawing of the hand crossbow in his hands is amazingly accurate. If this is the case with the crossbow, one may assume that other pictures like the castle, churches, walls, containers, jars etc. , may be accurate as well.
2. The Voynich Manuscript has been found in Italy near Rome. It was in the hand van the Jesuits. De Tepenecz and Kircher, whose names are associated with the Voynich Manuscripts were jesuits as well. And Cardano, who may have been in the possession of the manuscript was seized by the jesuits of the Italian inquisition and accused of heresy in 1570. He lost his position at the Bologna University and committed suicide in 1576. I don’t believe the John Dee / Roger Bacon connection with the Voynich Manuscript. I am not the only one.
3. The Voynich Manuscript contains special signs, which are derived from the alchemists. We call them alchemists, but they were in fact the scientists of the 14-15c. Moreover the combination of a botanical book with astrology/astronomy shows that there was a philosophical, scientific liaison, not just a practical book.
4. Mediaeval universities attracted people from everywhere, especially those interested in philosophy, mathematics and astronomy. In the 16th century also medicine (especially surgery). Botany, however, seems to be a rather local inland science (Apuleius, e.g.), not so much an international science.
5. I think there is enough evidence, that the Voynich Manucript belongs to the central north Italian area, not to some Arab crusade town or China.
6. The function of the book obviously was an apothecary.
Menno
Usually, it is necessary to demonstrate the truth of one idea before using it as proof of another.
So often in Voynich studies, the chain of ideas presented runs
“IF.(X.). THEN…THEN…THEN…”
where one might expect “IF.(X).. THEN… ELSE”
So – if you believe that the crossbowman is drawn literally and to scale, do you believe that the female figures in the manuscript are drawn literally and to scale?
I do not say that the maker was incapable of precision – there is no evidence for the opposite view – but I do say that the imagery in the Voynich manuscript was not first created in fifteenth century mainland Europe. An accurate copyist copies accurately, whether or not the original material [exemplar] was intended to be a literal, metaphorical or even a deliberately distorted figure. The precision of his hand does not imply ‘realism’ in every image.
Or do you think that the female figures really had heads so large, features distorted, feet split into only two toes and so forth? An alchemical circus, perhaps?
Seriously, though, I do expect that pharmaceutical medicine is one subject of the written text. I rather think that the odds are on a particular text.
No point in giving details.
Diane: “but I do say that the imagery in the Voynich manuscript was not first created in fifteenth century mainland Europe”.
It may indeed be true that the ideas for parts of the Voynich’s imagery predate the fifteenth century – as a specific example, I believe that art historians once asserted that the drawings in the zodiac roundels were typical of German 14th century almanacks, though doubtless you would disagree.
But surely trying to claim that the ideas for *all* its images significantly predate the fifteenth century would require a frankly staggering amount of proof?
Nick – Indeed.
I shouldn’t call it a process of proving, since I had not anticipated reaching the conclusion I did.
I think it was two years or more before I felt in a position even to offer a date range (4thC BC – 3rdC AD) and that isn’t exactly tight dating for the (original) source-works.
When you say,
art historians once asserted that the drawings in the zodiac roundels were typical of German 14th century almanacks
Did they? 😀
Did they include in that assessment any indication of where and how Germany gained (a) its idea of the almanac (b) its forms for almanac imagery?
– I know they wouldn’t. That sort of thing isn’t the business of the art historian. That in-depth crossing-borders sort of stuff is the task of art-analysis.
I don’t think I was very clear there, Nick.
If you choose a person whose specialty is the history of western Christian art, and hand them an object saying that it was ‘made in middle Europe late in the fifteenth or early in the sixteenth century’, then the answer you get will be within the parameters you have set so precisely by your choice of expert and the information provided them.
It’s no criticism of art historians – each has an area of specialisation and unless there are glaring anomalies (which there are, actually, even in the month-roundels) then they don’t expect to do more than locate it within the given limits.
In this case, it had first to be determined whether the imagery suggested first enunciation in the 15thC, or whether our manuscript copies one or more other sources.
That question, believe it or not, seems never to have been seriously addressed before 2008, when I was introduced to this manuscript.
Diane: the counter-position would be that, by that logic, one could theoretically trace a line of art-analytic continuity from Angry Birds all the way back to cave paintings (“Angry Aurochs”?), but that doesn’t imply that computer games themselves are 17000 years old.
To me, it would seem rather more pertinent to look for specific examples of technological detail that suggest an earliest date for the manuscript in and of themselves. That is, to look for dating evidence arising from the history of technology.
For example, Jens Sensfelder’s 2003 article argued for a dating not before the 14th century based on specific technology details depicted in the Sagittarius zodiac roundel.
http://ciphermysteries.com/the-voynich-manuscript/crossbow-article
Trying to explain away this kind of very specific conclusion (say, by saying the crossbow detailing must have been accidentally introduced by a later copyist) is not properly tenable in my view. But, as always, that’s just my view, make of it what you will. 🙂
Nick,
Before we had the C-14 date, the technology angle was a way to know where and when the thing was manufactured.
The C-14 has given us a date; the parchment(s) can tell us where.
The issue now is whether or not the content – especially the text – is contemporary with manufacture, and of similar origin.
That takes analysis a little more subtle, and less localised than one archer. Even if you only take the month-roundels, the explanation has to include all of them, including the form given the scales, and a reasonable explanation for putting rings of naked souls in towers.
I’m inclined to see them as “watchers” or as the Greek ‘hours’ myself. The archer essay – well, call it a good reading from faulty premises.
Diane: the radiocarbon dating gives an earliest date for the physical manufacture, whereas the crossbow dating gives an earliest date for the content.
Of course, it is plainly incompatible with the date range that you have assigned for the MS’s content: that’s your choice, and you have your reasons.
But given that the Voynich offers so few firm examples of things that can be technologically dated in this way, you have to understand that others may not wish to discard this very readily.
Diane: the Voynich has not so much a body of evidence as a collection of small bones – radiocarbon dating is one bone, the crossbow technological dating another, the parallel hatching another, and so forth.
Perhaps the real story will emerge if we can piece these bones together reliably: but discarding them is not to my taste.
Nick,
In my opinion, the archer is an up-graded figure of the stock type for the standing (Persian) archer. It is attested from the Parthian period. Its appearance in this instance (only one of many between the 5thC AD and the 15th) is most likely to take its form by reference to the Genoese, who re-introduced the crossbow to the medieval world, and probably obtained it from Persia – with whom the Genoese had close contact in the eleventh and twelfth centuries.
It’s 2am here.
Nick
I’m tired, but so must you be.
“The radiocarbon dating gives an earliest date for the physical manufacture, whereas the crossbow dating gives an earliest date for the content.” is a very silly argument, as I’m sure you know at heart.
If I point to an image of a crossbowman in a medieval Psalter, would you say that King David could have lived no earlier than the fourteenth century?
Thanks for ending my day with a smile..
Dear all, The zodiac/calendar rondel for Scorpio is one that no one seems comfortable dealing with! I really doubt that this monster, that seems intent on chomping down on an infant, and has four legs and a croc-like snout and tail is in any European zodiac tradition. It surely is no six-legged scorpion. Instead of belaboring that crossbowman who could have come, for example from any of Genoa’s many Meditterranean or Black sea outposts and cannot really be put into any exact, strictly European context per se, what about some royal, smart opinions on that alleged “scorpio”. It seems a more unusual zodiac figure than the others which are pretty typical of medieval zodiacs. I have some indications that it might have been imported from Mesopotamia, from the Euphrates R. area. I have no evidence, however, that it was ever in the sky as a constellation. Would not such a weird thing be more productive of ideas of origin, than getting into fine points on the construction of the scales?
Joachim,
One of the problems I have with the EVA-transcription is, that it treats special signs (F, K, P, T) as normal letters instead of ‘markers’. It suggests, that first words of paragraphs start with a letter p or t . I expressed earlier that this cannot be the case, because I cannot believe that in so many cases by accident p or t-words would be used to start a paragraph with unless such markers would mean something like Herba or Erba as is the case in similar medieval herbals. In my opinion such markers indicate a category rather than a letter from an alphabet.
Secondly I doubt if the F and K signs are really different from the P and T signs or just a writing variant.
I tried to use the TTF to reconstruct the original texts of the paragraphs. It looks very much Voynichese, but I did not retrieve the same text.
Menno,
We may not assume a one-to-one relation between glyphs and meaning.
If things were such simple VMs would have been solved already long ago, I think.
Especially EVA(k) is a multi-purpose letter with the meaning th,d,z (romanized from Arabic) in that order.
That behaviour is very similar to that of Aljamiado Arabic, please see here:
http://voynich2arabic.wordpress.com/origin-and-genesis/
The conversion map according to our research:
http://goo.gl/MQzTa
Joachim Dathe, I have studied your website before, which was an interesting exercise. However, there are two reasons for me, why Arabic would not have been involved. One is that the drawing of a castle with ghibbelines indicates a central-northern Italian origine and secondly the similarities between the Voynich MS and the non-coded Vermont MS 2 are convincing. The Vermont MS is Italian (ca. 1500, Tuscany ?), younger and more elaborated, but uses the same layout, presentation of plants and texts. As for the code the special signs in the Voynich MS, which I call markers rather than letters or numerals, could function in the so called nomenclatura, which was a 15th c. popular Italian coding system, both diplomatic and scientific, especially in (alchemistic) chemistry, botany and astronomy as it was a way to hide real names listed on separate sheets. One can compare the nomenclatura with the drawers of an apothecary.
Menno,
You still say,
the drawing of a castle with ghibbelines indicates a central-northern Italian origin,
No, it doesn’t. This error has been floating about for years and is fair set to be supposed fact for that reason alone. It is simply NOT true. An accident of history has simply left most our existing examples in that region, where the type had a particularly ”pro-Emperor’ significance, and even then not always.
… similarities between the Voynich MS and the non-coded Vermont MS 2 of 1500…
When you have an earlier manuscript (MS Beinecke 408), and a later manuscript (the Vermont), it is usual to suppose that *if* the relationship between them is direct – and sometimes it is secondary – then the later may modify the content of the earlier. You cannot assume identical text.
And as you say, it is not only nearly a century later, but *different* in content and appearance: what you gloss as ‘more elaborate’.
It may use closely similar layout, for imagery and text, but that is not sufficient reason to suppose the Vermont a carbon copy of the Voynich, even of its botanical section.
About your speculations concerning script and language, as always, I do not comment.
Menno, Diane: in my opinion, the swallow-tail merlons are entirely typical of a general period (14th / 15th century) and a general place (Northern Italy) but they do not by themselves constitute a complete proof.
Similarly, the idea of drawing herbals from nature or from dried specimens (rather than copying them from stylized drawings) was a very 15th century kind of thing. Again, this does not constitute a complete proof.
Add in things like parallel hatching (absent before 1410) and the radiocarbon dating, and you start to build up a reasonably consistent dating portfolio. Even Panofsky was sure the nymphs could not have been drawn before the 15th century, and who am I to argue with his opinion?
There are a few things which seem more typical of a fractionally earlier dating (the crossbow technology, the zodiac roundels generally, possibly the wolkenbanden, etc), which I believe would be consistent with parts having been copied or adapted from drawings from a slightly earlier date. Make of all this what you will!
Nick,
the unspoken predicate to all these statements including that by the deeply respected Erwin Panofsky is
“… in Europe”.
if that basic assumption is made, and never questioned, all that follows forms a very logical argument.
If the assumption is false, the argument remains logical. Just not true.
Diane
Diane: for me, a European origin for the Voynich Manuscript isn’t a presumption but a logical consequence of all the evidence I judge to be both reliable and relevant.
Feel free to hold whatever opinion and draw whatever conclusion you like based on the evidence that you judge to be both reliable and relevant.
Nick, Diane,
As always I am careful not to use the word ”proof’, but ‘indicate’, In this stadium no one can proof anything; nor did I say, that the Voynich MS has a 1:1 textual content with the Vermont MS.
The whole problem with the Voynich MS is the general agreement to disagree. If you only take the languages like Armenian, Basque, Arab, Chinese, Hebrew and whatever Aztecs or aliens may have spoken.
Besides, no one seems to bother, how the Voynich MS came in the hands of the Jesuits of the Villa Mondragone. Why has the Prague University the manuscript returned to the Jesuits ? What else can be the reason than that it was owned by them ? And how did they get it ? In my view they conficated it in 1570, when someone was seized for heresy by the Italian inquisition. I can’t proof it.
Menno: the Kircher correspondence archives contains a whole string of letters clearly referring to the Voynich Manuscript, and clearly linked to Marci’s cover letter.
Personally, I believe that Baresch’s, Marci’s, and Kinner’s letters were all written in good faith, and I don’t see a shred of evidence that suggests otherwise.
I am embarrassingly out of my depth here and hope I’m not wasting everyone else’s time. But there seems to be some terminological confusion here.
Diane: Please can I check that I understand your position more or less correctly? You seem to be arguing that the plaintext of the Voynich was copied/translated/enciphered from an ancient manuscript, which was physically created circa 300BC – 300AD but which contains material with far earlier origins. This, you argue, accounts for the lack of overt Christian symbolism in the imagery, and also explains the appearance of a number of non-Western motifs including the sun-and lotus. So although the Voynich itself was physically manufactured in Europe in the fifteenth century AD, using Western materials and techniques, the actual text is far earlier – much like a fifteenth century edition of Aristotle. Or, indeed, a mediaeval Psalter showing King David (quite possibly with the facial features of whomever commissioned the manuscript).
Nick, I refer to an earlier period before de Tepenecz (see your own contribution). It is well possible, that the Tepenecz received the manuscript directly through Jesuit channels from Italy instead of through the Roger Bacon – John Dee -Rudoplh II connection. De Tepenecz was a Jezuit himself. The connection between Roger Bacon and the Voynich MS is questioned.
The letters to Athanasius Kircher from Baresch and Marci date 1634-1665. There is no reason not to trust these letters.
I understand, that the Prague University returned the manuscript to the Jesuits. I have not seen an accompanying letter or so.
Sir Hubert,
As to form and materials – codicology and so on, I wholeheartedly agree that manufacture in early fifteenth century Europe is highly probable. I’ll go with that.
Content is an entirely other thing.
Because the whole constitutes a collection of extracts – as miscellany or zibaldone or florilegium or commonplace book (whatever term you prefer), so each of the extracts has to be considered not only in terms of where it was made part of the Voynich manuscript, but where it came from and (mainly for likely content of the text) where and when it originated.
The botanical and pharma sections contain nothing for which a date need be posited later than the 3rdC AD.
How the plant-pictures are structured, as well as the way they are formed, suggests origins in the 3rdC BC or thereabouts. I’d say probably an origin in the works of Theophrastus rather than Dioscorides (I may be mistaken).
Stylistic details which affect the *way* these and other pictures appear – especially the containers in the ‘pharma’ section – strongly suggest that the Hellenistic works had been retained not in the Mediterranean, but in regions adacent to the Great Sea (Indian Ocean – China Sea).
The plants are also (imo) eastern plants, but not just one used in medicine.
The month-roundels are from a different source; what I’ve called the ‘bathy-‘ section appears to be based in a genre of Egypto-Hellenistic imagery also seen in Roman times and known as the ‘river’ type. But the whole series bar one folio seems meant to be allegorical, or rather simultaneously literal and allegorical. Part of the imagery with ‘nymphs’ speaks pretty clearly to some basic-level chem-alchemy. Nothing stupendous, and mostly about gold.
In the somewhat-unlikely event that we have still copies of plaintext versions of the various texts used to make this miscellany, I’ve gone into a fair bit of detail about where and when each section appears to have (a) been first enunciated and (b) last affected by revision.
Trouble is, that there’s no necessity that the text written in by the fifteenth-century writers be exactly the same as what was in the texts they copied. Translation, synopsis, wholly new text is not impossible.
One does what one can.
🙂
Sir Hubert
in short: Yes.
Diane – thank you. I really do think this is important.
If you are right, this changes the significance of details like the construction of the crossbow, or identifying a palace, or even technical aspects like parallel hatching. These can tell us lots about where and when the manuscript was physically produced, and clearly that’s very important. But it doesn’t tell us anything at all about the language or date of composition of the text which accompanies the illustrations, even assuming that the illuminator had any idea of what that said and wasn’t simply following generic instructions like ‘Draw a crossbow.’
If you are right, and if this is some kind of anthology of scientific (in the loosest sense) texts whose origins are non-European, might this not also explain several other puzzling features of the text? Because the writings themselves would be rare (at least in Europe) and hence potentially valuable, it would be worth keeping them enciphered very carefully. If someone wanted a translation, they could pay the owner, or course. And if the original texts were written in different languages but enciphered in the same script, would this account for the ‘languages’ identified by Currier?
I’m very sorry if I’m reinventing the wheel.
Sir Hubert –
About implications for decryption I’m not able to comment. I am curious about why all the comparative statistics rely on orthography, never on phonetic value.
Month-roundels. If the makers aimed produce original imagery meticulously accurate, scientific and to scale, I can only regret the loss to modern science of the grey-green ‘lizard’. 🙂
I completely accept that certain drawings in the Voynich may have their ultimate conceptual roots in Roman, Hellenistic, Egyptian (or wherever) drawings.
However, I think that to a very large degree this is true of all drawings, even 21st century ones. So I’m unsure to what degree this is informative.
For example, even though the Voynich’s balneo section may possibly hark back to Roman baths (if you squint a bit), I don’t see any good reason to place it outside the late medieval tradition of illustrated balneological texts.
OK
At the moment, for role as compiler of some, or even most of the Vms, I like
SIMON JANUENSIS: Clavis sanationis sive Synonyma medi- cinae..
Diane: grey-green lizards may not be extinct – try an online search for David Icke…
Nick: I love the idea of Angry Aurochs. If there wasn’t one of these in Frak! then there certainly should have been – and I certainly had a shock when I just Googled that to check the spelling 🙂
But I digress. The issue here, I think, is distinguishing two things: the underlying subject matter on the one hand and the way the artist has chosen to depict it on the other. So…is it possible to demonstrate convincingly that the illustrations in entire sections of the Voynich consistently parallel entire sections of Classical manuscripts in terms of their content? Never mind if the figures, jars or whatever look fifteenth century rather than third century BC – can the subject matter be shown to be the same for both?
Sir Hubert,
re
“…is it possible to demonstrate convincingly that the illustrations in entire sections of the Voynich consistently parallel entire sections of Classical manuscripts in terms of their content?”
For literally dozens of reasons, including fallacies inherent in assumptions inherent in your question, the answer is almost certainly ‘no’.
Can anyone determine from a third-century Egyptian image of Mary more its time and region of composition?
Yes, sometimes. However, it would be quite impossible to use it as a way to reconstruct the whole corpus of Marian legends, even if (as we don’t) you had the basic canonical texts in legible form.
Just so, the imagery in the Vms speaks of its time and culture(s) of origin, while specific stylistic details – and the form of the ‘pharma’ containers – show the imagery affected by subsequent residence in the eastern world. The ornate containers by the way are not 3rC BC – closer to 2nd C AD.
From related historical matter, I’d say there’s a fair chance that some of the text might come from Theophrastus (often mis-identified as Aristotle), from Aëtius of Amida and.or Paul of Aegina. But it’s just a possibility. We have no idea whether the whole text was newly created for the fifteenth-century recension. If so it’s relationship to the (much older) imagery will be fairly tangential.
Diane:
Thank you for your patience. I am sure that some of my questions are painfully stupid, and my analogies probably aren’t great either. Of course it’s impossible to reconstruct an entire corpus of otherwise unknown Marian legends from a single third-century illustration, and I’m not suggesting you can.
You say:
“From related historical matter, I’d say there’s a fair chance that some of the text might come from Theophrastus (often mis-identified as Aristotle), from Aëtius of Amida and.or Paul of Aegina. ”
Can I ask what is it that you are comparing here? It sounds to me as thought you are matching the Voynich’s illustrations with the writings of these authors? Fine – but surely that has to be the subject matter of the illustrations rather than a stylistic element like the treatment of the pharma jars? Or have I misunderstood – are you instead arguing that the jars look like extant 2nd century AD examples and therefore the Voynich must have been copied from a 2nd century original? Surely not?
The point here is that your studies give tantalizing clues about ways to approach the text, and by exploring this I’m hoping that the formidable army of codebreakers on this site might see a way in. For example, you mention Simon of Genoa, of whom I am happy to admit I previously knew nothing at all. However, looking at the appropriately named http://www.simonofgenoa.org, I read that his lexicon uses a pretty consistent formula for its entries: “The disease/plant v is called w in Arabic and x in Greek. According to source y it is defined by z”. That kind of stereotyping, as you must know, is gold dust for a cryptanalyst. So yes, point absolutely taken about the text (possibly) being modified in all sorts of ways during the transfer from source (whether primary or secondary) to Voynich, but if you with your expertise in art analysis are able to suggest specific prototypes that could be a real step forward.
Sir Hubert
Sorry if I sounded terse.
The Voynich is a compilation, not a miscellany as such (imo) and compilations have a purpose, usually to serve a profession.
Most of it is plants and plant-bits, and as I read them, the great majority of the plants are eastern plants, with mnemonics added to relate them to the Theophrastan corpus. So Theophrastus’ works are a fair place to start.
but a profession has something to sell, too, so there’s a chance the text has been added to, or changed to bring any receipts into line with changing circumstances and/or customers’ preferences. Most receipts in older Europe tend to refer to Paul of Aegina and the other chap, so their texts are possible. By Bacon’s time, Simon’s glossary was really the standard, and I incline to the idea that the fifteenth century text might be a glossary using the various languages used by the relevant trade and commerce.
For the whole manuscript.. hmmn.
If it were me, I wouldn’t start with the plants, but with the month-roundels, and with the much smaller (only a handful) of texts about stones.
I’m pretty sure that the various observer’s towers (with their observant stars) each relate to some particular type of ‘earth’ or stone. So I’d begin with Theophrastus’ work on stones and see if labels made sense in that vocabulary.
There’s also Albertus Magnus on stones etc – but altogether not many, and a vocabulary of workable length.
Diane
Diane,
I don’t understand you any more. In one of your comments you wrote that everyone could make the Voynich manuscript, but now you emphasize the professional contents. I agree with that. That’s exactly what I wrote about the scientific community like universities of Miland, Pavia, Bologna and Padua.
I don’t understand either, that you object to a christian background of the VM. f86v shows clearly towers of churches and a monastery or sanctuary outside the town walls.
As for the subscript abrillis on f71r (Aries), this note has been written in Spanish/Portugese different from the Latin word aprilis and has been added later on by someone with a different hand and in darker ink.
Menno: you said…
“In one of your comments you wrote that everyone could make the Voynich manuscript, but now you emphasize the professional contents”.
I said anyone with the relevant knowledge – meaning that I do not see it as a static, library-kept tome shared only by academics and their students, or wealthy patrons and prodigee artists.
Everyone had a profession – including people whose profession was trade, or navigation or whathaveyou.
‘Profession’ does not imply any university environment in the early fifteenth century. Pharmacists, perfumers, makers of stonework, even artists never set foot in an academic library. Science existed a long time before anyone decided to call themselves a ‘scientist’ or think that nobody knew anything without an academic degree. I’ve no idea when the first degree in engineering was issued, but I’m pretty sure that none of the Roman aqueduct builders or builders of Gothic cathedrals had one.
I don’t understand either, that you object to a christian background of the VM.
There is nothing in the manuscript’s imagery characteristic of Latin monotheism.
f86v shows clearly towers of churches and a monastery or sanctuary outside the town walls.
Does it? Are you speaking about the roundel in the upper right? I don’t see any crosses on steeple or roof, but perhaps I’ve missed it, Still wouldn’t make the manuscript Latin or Byzantine of course.
As for the subscript abrillis on f71r (Aries), this note has been written in Spanish/Portugese different from the Latin word aprilis and has been added later on by someone with a different hand and in darker ink.
Yes, that’s so. Not sure I see any problem with that being the inscription. Thing is the original pictures were not meant for sheep. They’re goats – goats browse; sheep graze. The pictures have been put to a different purpose from what they first had. But that’s ok; it’s very common in Latin manuscripts.
Little attention has been paid so far to the paleography of the Voynich MS. Here are some thoughts.
1. The VMS is written in the so called gothic rotunda (12th -15th centuries), which developed from the Carolingian minuskel and precedes the humanistic uncial script. Peculiarity of the rotunda or round gothic is the rounded form of letters, which can be seen clearly in the VMS.
2. The current script of the gothic rotunda has been developed in the 13th century in Bologna and is called littera bononiensis, which has been primarily developed for juridical texts. Peculiarity of this script are the numerous abbreviations and ligatures, which makes the littera bononiensis difficult to understand, almost like a coded script. This would support the Montemurro option, that the VMS reflects a natural language written in an unknown script.
3. The numerals used in the quire notes of the VMS developed from the Arabic script, which originate from Spain/Portugal and which spread to the North of Europe. One can see the medieval Arabic numbers next to the Latin numbers on the famous Oroloj of Prague. The numbers originate from the Devanagari (Hindi). The script is known as the Roger Bacon script and was used by Johannis de Sacrobosco as well and dates back to the 13th century.
4. The present VMS has been carbon dated 1404-1438. The quire numbers show that someone has planned a publication (first binding), which presupposes that there has existed an earlier manuscript consisting of loose plates and texts, dating back to the 14th-13th century, which complies with the rather primitive designs of people and animals in the VMS as compared to similar manuscripts like the Vermont and Sloane herbals.
5. The quire numbers of the VMS seem to have been applied to the herbal section only. The combination with the other sections is likely to have been arranged on the occasion of the second binding (with modern folio numbers). The herbal section shows 17 quires (272 pages), which would comply with the supposed number of ingredients on the pharmaceutical pages and the register. This means, that a large number of folios from the original herbal section is missing.
Minutiae. Round and round, in dizzy circles, cross-currents of rivers of unnecessary, convoluted, arguments, which many times leads Nick to a dead end. Is there not one other person who contributes to Nick’s various puzzling presentations in re the Boenicke 408 manuscript’s WRITING (aka: CIPHER). Take a number, any folio number which is NOT accompanied by an illustration. Work on deciphering it. Get around the roadblocks of argumentation and focus on finding other manuscripts which HANDWRITING is similar. There are at least six folios of nothing but handwriting. Each star/flower/asterisk/bullet which begins each paragraph of handwritten dialogue is referring to a particular illustration elsewhere in the manuscript.
Yes, those elaborate “P” shapes are usually the beginning of a particular discussion. If botanical, one mentally adds “Es”-Pecies” and continues to translate the rest of the discussion. Dioscorides will not appear as Dio-scorides, but as “Scorides”. This is because one will not find a combined character for the syllable “dio” or “tio”. Kinda interesting from the point of view of worshiping “Dio”. No?
Heads up Nick:
I refer you to a comment, dated September 16, 2013, made by Diane, on your “A Visual Map….” . I’m not going to repeat it on this page, but to say that I found it very insulting, not just to all of your correspondents and contributors, but also to you.
Furthermore, friends: Herein I am addressing a cipher which appears infrequently in Boenicke 408. Folio 55v is the water lotus. The mystery cipher to which I am referring is the very last word of the second set of six lines: that little-seen cipher is the syllable which can be spoken as either tius, tious, or deus, or dios. My translation of the last word of the second paragraph gave me positive proof of identifying the member of the aquatic plant “oll-a-teus”. Also known as the water lotus (lotus nelumbo). Only in the last few centuries of botanical nomenclatural development, did the the water LOTUS become a classification of its own: “Nelumbo”. No, that cipher is not Tironian.
Further explanation of how I arrived at this translation: The difference between the aquatic lilies and other aquatic plants, was the mention of “The sacred BEAN of Egypt”. The water lotus is a member of the bean family, as opposed to the look-alike oll-il-ium. Other water plants, besides the lily and the lotus, were often included in discussions of “sagitae”.
One more not-so-aside comment: Busbecq returned to the court of Ferdinand I with some 240 manuscripts which were deposited into the imperial library in Vienna. (Forster-Roider, forward p. xiii). Not long after Busbecq finished his service with Ferdinand I, he spent some time in Rudolph II’s court before he attempted to return home.
Nick, I can only reiterate that you can gain a *whole lot” of understanding of “Boenicke 408’s” contents from this small paperback edition of The Turkish Letters of Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq. (Originally published by OXFORD:Clarendon Press, 1927)
bdid1dr: while I’m happy for you that you obviously get so much enjoyment from reading about all things historical, please understand that telling me what to read or think about the Voynich Manuscript, Busbecq, Rudolph II, Kircher, etc isn’t a good use of your time. 😐
Oh, of course not. I certainly have much more time in which to indulge in solving mysteries. I’ve just returned from the pages of medieval scripts and abbreviations presented by the University in Nottingham. See you later. I promise no more referrals/references to toppling piles of files, books,manuscripts, and/or other discussions. x my ‘eart!
Sincerely yours,
bidi (a tiny cigarette) though I don’t smoke.
SirHubert,
I think the simplest is to say that, close to the end and much to my surprise, it struck me that Baresh’s letter is perfectly compatible with the internal evidence.
and with the opinion, given by Panofsky in 1931, that the imagery is not part of the western Christian tradition in art.
P’s specialty was exactly that – mainstream western Christian imagery.. His opinion is therefore so much more important than what Mnishovsky is said to have said etc. etc.. I am unable to suggest why his assessment has overlooked.
What I’m still looking for is the evolution of the various forms of archery. Apparently the Ottoman emperors had whole segments of their armies, archers who could use their modified short-bows, while on galloping horseback and shoot six arrows a minute, or less. Apparently the boys started learning when about six years old. The discussion doesn’t mention how accurate this kind of archery would have been. So, does Panovsky discuss this phenomenon?
From my North American aspect, I compare depictions of scorpions, lizards, alligators, and crocodiles. Which would be most likely to end up in a medieval European/Asian/Indiaman/Ottoman manuscript as either an astronomical or astrological symbol? Most often I find scorpions in my kitchen or bath sinks, but the very first one I spied, out of the corner of my eye, was at my eye level on the wall. I got a very good look at it b4 I smashed it with a book. This is a true story, X my heart. By the way, when I was a small child, I had a pet horned toad.
🙂
James W. Allan, ‘Metalwork of the Turcoman Dynasties of Eastern Anatolia and Iran’, Iran, Vol. 29 (1991), pp. 153-159.
Nick, SacTech, & Dave:
Dave’s solution needs to have only “K” added to the Lepto-levels to arrive at the message that thieves or kleptomaniac levels were high.
My references to numeral 8 representing the written syllable “aes” apparently requires a little more explanation: An example I will use is the name of a well-known story teller: Aesop
What has puzzled me is that I’ve never found a pronunciation for that gentleman’s name: Is it “ee-sop”? Is it Aee-sop”? Is “sop” pronounced as in sob, or as in soap? Amazing how many people can’t comprehend the difficulty with pronunciation of even some of the simplest syllables — if the speaker happens to be hearing impaired, or even fully deaf.
All my life I’ve read books with a stack of dictionaries at my elbow. Not necessarily to gain definitions, but to learn to pronounce the words.
Some other time, maybe (if I get any encouragement at all), I’ll tell you of my experience at Club Med, Moorea, Papeete, Tahiti.
A tout a l’heure!
In modern English, he’s pronounced ‘EE-sop’, with ‘sop’ rhyming with ‘sob’. In Classical Greek he’d be Aisopos, pronounced ‘eye-SOAP-oss’.
Sir Hubert: Thank you. Gracias. Merci Beucoup. Epharisto. T’Chu’Kran. Funny, my spell checker red-lined all of the above expressions but the English!
beedee eyed wonder-er
😉
A short ref to Nick’s ‘nymph small’: Several months ago,I found several white human nymphs having a bath in a courtyard black-tiled pool. The ‘Met’ was presenting a “slide series” of the works of Nizami and other manuscripts from Ottoman controlled territories. You may still be able to view the Met’s offerings.
Dear anyone still interested in “swallowtail merlons”: Fr. Kircher identified that structure as being “Vellitrae”. Vellitrae was historically known to be the “home town” of many conscripts of war for the Roman armies. Vellitraen speech and writing was similar to Oscan. I don’t know how literate Vellitraean citizens were. Today, they have a museum, but not much of its contents appear on the W W W.
ps: Most likely the name “Vellitrae” would have been spelled “Oelltrae”
Dear anyone, I am puzzled as to how Villa Mondragon was ever associated with the medieval “Roman School”. Villa Mondragon was only a favorite “garden-spot hangout” for the Pope. The Roman School was in Frascati proper. The Roman School was eventually remodeled and added onto, by the Pope Gregory who also reset the calendar. Fr. Kircher talks about having to dodge Swiss soldiers while on his journey to his new post in Frascati. Another tidbit I discovered several months ago: Athanasius Kircher’s father was a teacher/lecturer at a Benedictine monastery near the Kircher’s home village.
Nick, I’ve promised not to recommend/suggest any more reading for you. I am suggesting, however, that Voynicheros-at-Large can benefit hugely from a paperback written by Joscelyn Godwin: “Athanasius Kircher – A Renaissance Man and the Quest for Lost Knowledge.”
Godwin’s bibliography is fairly comprehensive in itself, insofar as it refers to sources still available in either hard copy or on the WWW.
Philip Neal’s archive is also packed with “goodies”.
From Mr. Neal’s archive, I extracted and translated a recipe for making colloidal silver. When Kircher read the letter, he wrote with a very shaky hand, the word “alchemy”, one alpha character at a time on the several sentences of said document. I was unable to identify the name of the person who wrote the letter. Perhaps Mr. Neal might know?
Several weeks ago I referred to an artist who was at Istanbul at the same time as diplomat Busbecq. The artist, Melchior Lorck, had access to Suleiman’s wife, “Hurrem Sultana”. Lorck’s engraving of her aspect was, apparent to me anyway, “true to life” inasmuch as showing her beauty as well as her “thoughtful” appearance.
So, there was at least one other European “on the scene” at Istanbul before various diplomats had to scurry home. Suleiman laid siege to Vienna just a month or so after the various diplomats/artists, and traders, returned to their homes. History in a “nutshell”? Or maybe history in a “silkworm cocoon”? Boenicke 408, folio 11v, is all about the care and feeding of chopped mulberry leaves (pabulomox) to “sericinae” (silk caterpillars). Morus alba is briefly referred. One last very obscure latin word is “blattae”: “moth-eaten”.
If spinners and weavers wanted to get at least a mile or more length of unwound cocoon thread, they killed the insect inside the cocoon before it could eat its way to freedom and flight.
Both France and Italy eventually developed their own silk factories. I’ve done more research on the European silk factories.
I “wonder” no more about this particular item of the “Voynich” manuscript.
beady-eyed wonder
BTW Nick: If only you and your nymphet friend could reach to each other’s shoulder pad, you would be dancing the “Hasapiko”! If you have a long line of dancers linked by their shoulders, you could all be dancing a “Hasaposerviko”! The shoulder hold is most often seen in the Tsamiko, when the men take turns doing some strenuous and often dangereous gymnastic variations. OPA!
bdid1dr
Nick, I probably have the memory of an elephant. Do you recall Jim Reed’s comment in re: “Whoever solves the Voynich will probably not be remembered any more than the name of Elizabeth Taylor’s last husband”. My quotation here, may not be word perfect, but I remember your response — and I sympathized with you: Partial excerpt of your response: “like climbing Mt. Everest without oxygen…”
I couldn’t agree more with you, Mr. Pelling!
beady-eyed wonder (who is recovering from a pneumothorax)
Nick, I’m not sure where to post an item I came across while doing my usual cruising through google’s offerings. Did/do you already know that the “Pirate” Barbarossa was in the employ of Suleiman I? Should I be referring this item to your other (LeBuse) discussions? Note I am not referencing other’s reading material, etc.
Just learned about this incredible document. Now, just ‘cuz I’m the curious type, has anyone determined if it represents 12, or 13, months? Gregory changed the calendar all right. He also dropped a month, recall. Consequently, there were 13 zodiacal signs until the Gregorian Calendar came into being. I’m sure, (as it isn’t mentioned) you have all taken that into account. I may have missed it, but if Gregory pre-dates VMs, or they are contemporaries, my apologies.
LOVE your site, Nick!
Adios, all.
bdid1dr: errrrrm…. (1) yes, (2) no. 🙂
Phoenix: from the Voynich Manuscript’s page layout, it seems almost certain that the original had only 12 signs, and that the leaf we’re missing contained roundels for Capricorn and Aquarius.
The history of the zodiac signs and the history of the calendar are very largely independent, so there isn’t really anything much to work on here, sorry!
Nick, I may be a tad confused with my latest pondering: Did not some of our earliest philosophers/poets/mythologists have a name for nearly all of the constellations in the night sky? My favorite (Pleiades) seems to have not figured in their “astrology” musings. Did the various star patterns have different names depending upon which part of the world they were being viewed?
It interested me greatly when I was translating some of the B-408 folios which led to the various bath-houses/temples/sacred groves folios (73-83 ‘r’ and ‘v’). Some of the various territories from which captives/slaves were obtained were described as being from where the “evening star” arose (or set). A good example is B-408, folio 56r. I’m circling back to a comment I made on your “That which brings your website to its knees” blog-page on 30 April 2013.
I’ll be re-visiting a W-site which gave a synopsis of the mythology associated with the Pleiades constellation. I’ll see if there is any discussion in re Capricorn and Aquarius. By the way, I hope your “oxygen-level” is improving. 🙂
Nick & Diane (& any “nymphs” who might be hanging around):Today I found another presentation, written in Nas-ta-liq) of Nizami’s Kamsah (Quartet): The story line is the tale of the lovers Layla and Magnun. This time around, the lovers meet in a palm grove. The Wiki writers’ commentary is particularly interesting because it mentions the text being written on the back of the “folio”.
I’ve placed this comment here because earlier I referred you to New York’s Metropolitan Museum and its holding of another of Nizami’s same folios which displays the “nymphs” playing/fighting in a black-tiled pool of water. Now I’m going to attempt to translate Nizami’s beautifully illustrated story and compare it with the Boenicke 408 captioning/discussions.
Remember, Nick, when we were all trying to interpret the architectural drawings/math required to tile the walls of Col. North’s turkish bath? I mentioned that the logo appeared to be an adaptation of “Nastaliq”. I’ve come full circle once again. So, probably if you were able to find a reader/writer fluent in N’as ta liq, and is fluent in Latin, we may be making progress in “leaps and bounds” throughout B-408. Maybe then you would be able to take in a huge amount of oxygen and release a long sigh of carbon dioxide. (humor: I’m not talking “hot air” here.) Ever respectfully yours!
beady-eyed wonder
Nick & Diane, do you recall several people who have attempted to identify one of B-408’s drawings as being a banana tree? Well, Nizami’s Kamsa offering of the lovers Layla and Magnun portrays them under tents near a grove of palm trees. Note the shape of the “tents” also. Interesting.
Apparently a large museum in London has a huge archive of “Muslim” manuscripts, many of which predate the Kamsa by a century or so.
My vision is still deteriorating, and I am no longer a candidate for cataract surgery. So I apologize in advance if what I see doesn’t appear to be relevant to the “Voynich” puzzle discussions.
Sincerely, bd (who can no longer climb hills and mountains above 3,000 feet)
Bdid1dr
Edith Sherwood identified folio 13r as a banana.
Without knowing that i identified it as a portrait of several species of ‘banana’ including ones which modern taxonomy places among the plantains, notably the red-leafed blood-bananas used in parts of the African continent to brew beer.
I really can’t see how more this drawing could be more precise and in this case wouldn’t consider the identification ‘attempted’ – independently made by a trained pharmacist-herbalist and an iconographic analyst. I think any rejection is more likely because it stands as such a powerful argument against any entirely European provenance – an idea many are reluctant to abandon. Formal texts of European botany wouldn’t depict the plant with anything like the same fidelty for some centuries after the vms’ radiocarbon dating.
But rejecting evidence which doesn’t fit a preferred theory is not unusual, and offhand I can think of none immune from the habit, including me.
Before I became aware of Nick’s blog, I had contacted Edith when her blog was still open to discussion. Besides the gold mine (El Mina) and the bronzes, we discussed the palm trees, which, to my eyes, appeared to be “oil” palms.
I think it was right around that time that I found your discussion of tarot/playing cards. At that time I didn’t have a printer.
Anyway, my last eight years or so of employment were in the field of records management and research. So, I now have about three linear feet of folders in my file cabinet dedicated to the translations of the B-408 manuscript. Not just Nick’s pages but also downloads from UC Berkeley and Stanford for my research on the Spanish missions in California. I even have some material on Sir Francis Drake, General Vallejo, and the displacement/enslavement of our native Californians. Jim Reed in San Jose has probably donated to Nick’s various discussions ‘now and then’ .
Oh, one last mention of European invasion of California: Fort Ross and the Russian otter skin traders who enslaved the native population. Recently, the Russians made a deal with the California governor to operate the concessions at Fort Ross (a several million-dollar deal).
Just a little more about the significance of the palm trees: The palm trees near Benin were “oil” palms. Spain and Portugal, in particular, were in competition for that oil. It was used for lamps, but was also sought after for the making of soap. Further into the semi-desert regions and full desert regions, a primary source of sugar was the date palm.
When I was living in sub-tropical Key West, my neighbors were oblivious to the date palm, the plantain palm, the papaya tree, and the sapodilla trees which roots heaved our sidewalks. My younger son, however, was permitted to browse the grounds of the elderly woman whose mansion included a “captain’s Walk” on its roof. She was so impressed by his good manners that he was the first person (under the age of fifteen) she had ever permitted to enter her property. Key Lime pie. The tree is called Key Lime because for many years that species of lime grew nowhere else. Key limes are so sour that they are most often used only as the ingredient in Key Lime pie (lots of corn syrup needed to balance the flavors).
One more comment about California’s historic places. Not too far from Fort Ross is a bay called “Drake’s Bay”. The legend has it that Sir Francis Drake made landfall there.
On other of Nick’s pages I’ve mentioned Acadians in New Brunswick (?) Nova Scotia (?) migrating far south of the Canadian border into what eventually became “The Louisiana Purchase”. Some Cajuns in the bayou country still speak the lingo, and can trace their family history all the way back. Cubans in Key West also have their brand of “Spanglish”.
I won’t bore y’all with my family history and the earliest mention of Ybele or Ibele names in central Europe.
🙂
A bit more about the “oil palm”. The soap was called “castile soap” … at least in Spain. So, I shall venture back to b-408,
f-13v, to see what I can read, and maybe fully translate. The brand-name for castile soap, here in the US, is “IVORY”. I’m sure the manufacturer’s of ” Ivory” soap had no idea that they were referring to a location on the African coast, not too far from Benin and El Mina.
Addendum to “oil” tree discussion: I’ve tried to confirm my observation of more recent history for that part of the African coast but apparently it is a very sensitive issue — A Shell Oil facility now occupies that stretch of coast. I’m pretty sure it is not “soap oil” they are exporting.
One more comment in re sugar refineries in Hawaii: recently, here in the US, I’m finding ‘raw sugar’ obtained from the sap of the palm trees. “C and H” Sugar has had a monopoly on cane sugar refining and shipping for over a hundred years now. By the way, the palm sap sugar is pretty “blah” compared to the brown sugar or white sugar produced from sugar cane. So, today I shall wander “afield” with google to see what kind of history is developing in ‘our’ state of Hawaii.
‘-)
Note that I have not gone into a detailed discussion of the Dole plantations in Hawaii (pineapples). Nor much discussion of Liliuokalani.
beedeeeyedwonder
Impossible de commenter sur votre site ?
Ruby: not impossible, just a little difficult. I’ve had so many attempted troll invasions here recently that I had no choice if I wanted to let people leave comments at all. Just one of those things, sorry. 🙁
Nick & Ruby: I apologize if I’m monopolizing the conversation on the newly re-organized pages of Nick’s blog. It interests me that you chose to pose a query rather than donate to the (so far one-way) current discussion herein. Breathe, Nick, breathe!
I’m amazed that even some doctors describe a repair of a pneumothorax as being the process of punching another hole in the affected lung with a tube meant to suck the air out of the lung. That is NOT the case. The tubing is inserted into the pleural tissue-lining of the pleural cavity itself and removes that excess air which would otherwise cause the lung to collapse/compress entirely. The relevance of my commentary, here on this page, is the similarity of this technique to some of the earlier centuries’ battlefield surgeries being done using the smoke of burning mandrake root. Probably the opium poppy would have been in the medieval surgeon’s bag also.
B4 I forget, already, my latest discovery which I’ve extracted from a google search I’ll give my primary reference to the Treaty of Nymphaeum of the thirteenth century (1261) and the family of Guglielmo Boccanegra of Genoa. (Key reference is that Boccanegra was a “supporter of the GHIBELLINE factor.
A very interesting and revealing discussion of his exile in France, also.
Encyclopedia Britannica has some discussion of the Bocaneggra family also. Diane, have you already “been here, done that”?
🙂
The word “mnemonics” written in Vms characters:
2-barb hook, 1-barb hook, 2-barb hook, 1-barb hook, smaller numeral 9 (if indicating the plural ending ks or x). No need to insert vowels.
🙂
While skimming the conversations on this page, I briefly glimpsed discussion of stones. There may not be much I can add to the conversation except to pose a question I made several days/weeks ago (before ThomS got contacted by S. Bax): Is there any connection between “lemnium earth” and “ani clay”? Both of these soils have been referred to as having “curialim” qualities.
Some of the discussion I’ve recently seen here seems to be on the edge of a “lava” field; of which we have plenty. 😉
Bd1dr
You asked: Diane, have you already “been here, done that”?
I mentioned the treaty in passing, some time ago, but not the Boccanegra. Interesting possibility.
Boccanegra apparently gained fame as a fortifications builder (Casteletto), and in France (Aigues-Mortes), the construction of its port of call. This note comes from a brief wikipedia translation.
There is a lot of material on the Guelph and Ghibelline factions (mostly on Wikipedia), translated from the Italian.
I’ll be trying to find online pictorial elements of the above-mentioned fortifications. Fun! There is also mention of the Swabian dynasty which began with Frederick Barbarossa.
thus becometh ‘central Europe’ ‘somewhere southern’ eh?
Yup! 😉
Wink
I’m now 1-dering if the Frederick Barbarossa I mentioned earlier on this page was in any way related to the pirate Barbarossa who was the commander of Suleiman’s naval operations.
bdid1dr: nope, not related at all. Rather, they both had red beards. Errrm… though to be precise, I think it was the Turkish Barbarossa’s brother who had a red beard, not Barbarossa himself. History is like that. 🙂
Dear Nick, I just watched the video of Castel del Monte. Though I was not able to listen, even with my amplifier on high, much of their presentation seems to be following up on various discussions on this blog page. Their overlay of B-408’s folio 55v (Lotus) showed the dried seedpod which is the “key” to deciphering/translating that folio. I 1-dr if they’ve been following the discussions here on your various pages. The very last word on folio 55v translates to “ollotius” lotus.
I mentioned this translation several weeks ago.
They also briefly showed the sun symbols which appear diagonally opposite each other on the “Nine Rosettes Page”, which I mentioned several months ago were probably indicating the East/West orientation of that drawing. At the time I posted to the discussions, I also mentioned the ships which appear on the water at the base of the cliff and castle.
So, you now know why my frequent refrain has been “sailing-sailing…..” Maybe you remember some discussion in re “sabir”?
Thank you ever so much for keeping us informed of recent developments!
Consider yourself X’d and O’d (kissed and hugged)! xxooxxoo…..!
hodOr hOdoR, HOdoR, hoDoR, hoDOr, Hodor, HOdOr, hoDor, HOdor hoDoR, HODOr, hODOr, HoDOr HOdoR, HODor, hodOr, hOdoR hODoR, hoDor, Hodor, hOdoR, hodOr, HOdoR, hoDor Hodor, hodOR hodor, hOdor, hOdor, hodOr, HOdor, hoDor, HoDOr, HOdoR hodor, HoDOr, HOdor hodor, hoDOr HoDoR, hoDor, HodoR, hodOR hODor, HOdOr, hodor, HOdor hodOr HOdor, hodOr, HOdor. HOdoR, HODor, hoDor, HodoR, hoDor hOdor, hoDor, HodoR, HOdoR, hodor, hodOr, HoDOr, HOdOr, hodOR hodOr, hOdoR hOdoR, hODOr, hoDOr, hoDor HoDoR, hoDor, HodoR, hodOR hodOr, HoDOr, HOdoR, hoDor, HodoR, hoDor, hOdoR, HOdoR, hodOr, HoDOr, hODor hOdoR, HOdoR, hoDoR, HoDor, HoDor HODor, hoDor, HodoR, hoDor. HOdoR, HODor, hodor, HoDOr, hOdOr, hOdoR!
— Hodor
Craig: e.g. “I STUMBLED UPON THIS WEBSITE BY ACCIDENT AND AM VERY GLAD I DID THERE CERTAINLY IS SOME VERY INTERESTING STUFF HERE THANKS”. 🙂
Yes, well, I never implied that it would be challenging 🙂
Seriously though, I’m impressed that you didn’t immediately delete the message as spam (although given the context of the website I hoped you wouldn’t but couldn’t be sure.) I think that you not jumping to the conclusion that it was spam says something about your attitude (and prompted me to bookmark your blog, by the way, as it suggests very strongly to me that you have an open mind)
I’m also impressed that you solved it in at most 20 minutes based on the message timestamps. Assuming that you didn’t see my message straight away I’ll divide the 20 minute maximum by 2, giving a reasonable time of 10 minutes. I’m guessing that it’s quite possible you took even less time than that! Even given it’s simplicity that’s pretty fast.
Craig: it took me about 2 seconds to recognise it as a biliteral cipher, a minute to realise that it wasn’t actually Bacon’s (because each set was back to front, and because he only used the first 25 of the 32 permutations), about 5 minutes doing replaces in a word processor to turn it into a nicely-formatted set of letters, about 10 seconds to solve that using WinDecrypto, and a couple of minutes to post a comment. 😉
In fact, I was thinking about biliteral ciphers a few days ago, because there was a TV programme that claimed that a particular prison gang communicates using bilateral ciphers (which seemed particularly unlikely to me).
Nick: Thanks for the detailed breakdown of your approach and thought processes. It’s always great to “see into the mind” of another person’s approach towards solving a problem (and how they recognise it as a problem in the first place.)
As you know, the way *I* might solve a problem is very likely to be substantially different to your way, or any other random person’s way. I try to look and recognise problems in weird and whacky ways but this is obviously easier to state than put into practice.
I actually find that reviewing other people’s approach to problem solving is often more intriguing and informative than the problem itself!
Hi Nick.
Quite recently I came across on the web on your blog. The subject of your research is very similar to mine, because I am also interested in the mysterious ciphers. Last mainly deals with an attempt to decode the prophecy of Nostradamus. I am the author of the website, which posted excerpts prophecies of Nostradamus ( Almanacs, Predictions ) with my interpretation. (link ) – http://gloriaolivae.pl/
There is one drawback. I only write in Polish, so the google translation translet is certainly imperfect. When it comes to Manyskrypt Voynich, it also have some interesting ideas. More than that, I think that I managed to find the right way to decipher the manuscript. If you meet it with your interest, it soon on your blog I am ready to decode, describe each of the parties manuscript.
My entry is in the fact that I would attempt to share with my interpretation of the Voynich Manuscript of the widest circle of stakeholders. Therefore, Nick, if you have an opportunity, I would ask you, would you my interpretation presented for example in the media.
Gregory.
I’ll be brief, Nick: Have I offended you or any of your other guests? I’m getting error 500 message from my server (whichever of your latest blog entries). I surely hope not! But, if so what behavior or language may I be able to correct or amend?
Sincerely ‘at a loss’, beady-eyed wonder. Will you be ‘cluing me in’ via my email?
Hi Nick!
Can you please change the color of the links on top of your page. It looks terrible over that background picture and is hard to read. Or is it meant to be like that, as a cipher?
Benny: I meant to do it a while back, but couldn’t see where in the (many) menus the colour was. I’ve brightened it up now, though: better?
Thanks Nick, it looks much better. I still have some links going over the counter thingy but I must give you credit for a quick change. 🙂
Nick, I’ll try to be brief: He (you know who) may be doing a lousy job of translating/decoding via EVA, but he actually is right on the mark as far as identifying the specimen on B-408 as the castor bean plant. When I lived in Key West I had a huge castor bean plant (Ricinus communis) right at my back kitchen door. I made sure that my boys would not even touch it, much less the very shiny black bean pods.
I have found references in the B-408 folio (3v? 6v?)which make the identifying discussion in Latin terminology.
Hope you had a fun St. Pat’s Day!
bd
Hello Nick, I am a Dutch artist. I would like to add a link to the page of ‘Carta marina’ and the description on the beasts on the map on my new website(it is in the make). I wonder if that is O.K with you? I am working on an art project i call Carta Marina based on the discoveries of Olaus Magnus. I couldnt fina a mail adress but send my question this way.
Have a nice day Greetings,
Mia
Mia: that would be absolutely fine (though the original Carta Marina page was nothing to do with me, I just thought it was cool and worth sharing). Drop me a line when your site goes live! 🙂
Hi Nick
What do you think John Dee had to do with the VMS?
cheers
Lordtrumpalot: for what it’s worth, I think John Dee had a lot to do with cryptography, but basically zero to do with the Voynich Manuscript. I currently believe that the VMs most likely arrived at Rudolf II’s Imperial Court during 1609 or so (which was a long time after Dee had gone ‘ome), travelling via Switzerland.
This is the most plausible explanation I’ve found so far…
http://cms.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/issue100/HG100-voynich-online.pdf
What do you think?
Darklolrd: I think I covered it reasonably comprehensively here – http://ciphermysteries.com/2014/01/21/brand-new-new-world-nahuatl-voynich-manuscript-theory – but let me know if there’s anything I missed. 🙂
Thanks Nick for pointing me to it, my fault it’s me who missed it
Nick, my old computer crashed. So this comment is a test drive with new computer. So, I’ll now try to access the Folger discussion. Cya soon (I hope!)
bdid1dr
Hi, Nick!
A pleasure reading your adventures trying to find a document in Barcelona that can confirm or deny the Joan Roget story.
As I understand it, now you don’t know if Simón de Guilleuma changed the dates of the testaments on purpose or was a strange multiple mistake. I don’t know if you have news about it or you still are in the dark, as me 🙂 What do you think of Girolamo Sirtori’s claims that he found the real inventor? Do you believe it? By now, do you believe anything about Roget’s story?
Sorry for asking but I am searching information for an article that I will write about Roget, I found your blog and I couldn’t resist contacting you! 🙂
Congratulations on your good work and best!
Oscar Garcia, from Barcelona
Nick, I am so perturbed (aka ‘rattled) by the latest news concerning the Winter Gardens at Greenwich University:
They are selling that part of the University’s property to real estate developers (housing).
One of your friends (Brian) was first to respond to the news. I sure hope you give a d…n , and might even be able to follow the action, and keep us posted! There is little chance for me to attend (not even a ‘slow-boat’ would get me near enough to speak my piece)!
Oh dear! To me this is as bad as what ‘they’ did to Sir Thomas More’s remains and separated head! Explanation marks galore still don’t express my indignation! But who am I to complain from my North American aspect?
Sincerely sad……
bdid1dr
Just wanted to post to say that I enjoy reading your blog and also receive the Voynich News. There’s always something of interest. Gives me tons of inspiration when designing the crypto puzzles for my challenges. cipherprize.com.
I think the link in my previous comment was incorrect. Please try this one (second tower image):
http://www.thegoodlifefrance.com/the-battle-of-crecy-and-the-hundred-years-war/
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
Oscar: sorry for not replying sooner, your comment slipped into a crack from which I have only just extricated it. 🙁
I am indeed still completely in the dark about Simón de Guilleuma’s claimed finds. As I recall, I was able to find other documents signed by pretty much all the specific notaries he named: but given that I searched diligently through the correct folders indicated for those notaries in the archival indexes and yet found nothing matching what he described, I’m reluctantly forced towards one of four conclusions:
(1) that he made the whole story up
(2) that he was completely genuine, but asked for all the papers to be filed together somewhere (but nobody knows where)
(3) that he was completely genuine, but then stole all the papers (and they’re still somewhere in his family’s possessions).
(4) that he was completely genuine, but then stole all the papers (and they have since been sold, dispersed, or lost).
If you find anything that helps you personally choose between these, please let me know (because I am at a loss as to which is true). 🙁
Nick, I’m appearing on this page because I see that a lot of people (including Rene and Diane, in particular) missed my full translation of the contents of B-408, folio 11v: illustration of a single mulberry fruit (six lines of discussion on your ‘Stephen Bax Voynich….” discussion page on March 14, 2014. Things seem to be getting ‘more and more’ confused when trying to identify that very strange fruit on folio 11v.
Have I already mentioned (on other of your “Voynich” pages) another use for the mulberry tree (which Sahagun’s scribes and illustrators portray themselves manufacturing mulberry and/or fig tree – bark paper …. on the last folios of Fray Sahagun’s “Florentine Codex” ….?
If I could, I would post this on either Diane’s or Rene’s pages.
Thank you for your consideration!
bdid1dr
If anybody is having trouble cracking a cipher, let me take a look at the ciphertext! I can help out and I recently developed an interest an interest in cryptography and unsolved ciphers.
http://www.thebealekey.com
🙂
PTSNS,STSTOTTLTSAI,DSTSTOTLTA,TSHSSH,*STS
TOTA*AHD*SPSH,HSIO*TAHHHLTSHHLTYTSHTS,HP,O*N,L
T,SSAPTASTSTPTTLSAASI,TTS,HASI,TASI,TTS,HAHDTS,H
ASI,TTDSA,ISHOSALHSTS,STS,SHLTYHAATTLSATSHTSHA
HDTSHLSHHTDSA,A*OA*AS,HATA*NHO
Cryptodude: If you wish to write me….
[email protected]
Hello. Good day to you.
I am knew to cryptography, finding it fascinating. I’ve decided to try encoding as a hobby, and I wondering about something. Perhaps you could answer it for me.
Would there be any practical value for a cipher capable of encoding any length of text into a single symbol (while also being able to decode this one symbol into the original plaintext)? For all I know, this system of encoding already exists, or it’s impractical.
Hope you can help me find an answer. Thank you!
Rich: technically, that’s a code – a cipher system applies a given process to one letter at a time, while a code system applies a transformation to a block of letters (e.g. a word or phrase). This isn’t absolute (there’s a fair amount of leeway for systems that combine aspects both of codes and ciphers), but it’s a fairly good starting point.
In short: ciphers are weak if you can reengineer the underlying transformation, while codes are weak if you can reengineer the code book. 🙂
Nick: thank you for the prompt response! Seeing your answer, that leads me to another question, if I may? If what I had described originally could technically be considered a code, would it still be a code if it’s based on an underlying system that controls the transformation? I ask just so I may get the concepts of code and cipher understood.
Also, if such a system like this could be implemented, would it be practical? I ask this because I’ve read the concept behind the “one-time pad,” and it would seem that a one-symbol (or perhaps better said ‘one-letter’) system would have just the same benefits since it would be practically immune to all forms of frequency analysis. That’s if I understood the notion of “one-time pad” correctly.
Thank you, again!
Rich: it’s not about an underlying system, it’s about how you block letters together on the way into that system. If you do them one at a time, it’s a cipher; and if you block large groups of them together, it’s a code. All codes and ciphers are (or, at least, should be) systematic transformations in one way or another.
One-time pads (OTPs) promise perfect security… if you can keep the pads secure, and/or not reuse large chunks of them in your one-time pad factory (e.g. VENONA). 😐
You refer in one video that some or the voynich letters (4o, for example) also exists in an italian book about ciphers.
Can you identify such book?
Is it available online?
Luis: I discuss this in my book “The Curse of the Voynich”, pp.175-179. When I wrote it in 2006, I identified the 4/4o cipher trick in four different ciphers from 1440 to 1456.
* 1440 – Leonello d’Este
* 1450 – Tristano Sforza
* 1455 – Orfeo da Ricavo
* 1456 – Nicolao Maoleone Ferrarien
The 1440 cipher is to be found in the Urbino cipher ledger (Codice Urbinate 998), one of only a small number of pre-1500 cipher ledgers still extant. I posted scans of images from Luigi Sacco (1947) here: http://www.nickpelling.com/voynich/codiceurbinate998.html The other three ciphers are to be found in the “Tranchedino” cipher ledger from Milan: I’m not sure if there’s an online version of this, sorry.
Also: Aloysius Meister’s 1902 “Die Anfaege Der Modernen Diplomatischen Geheimschrift” lists a Modenese cipher dated 23rd June 1435 “In Milano” where “4” enciphers ‘Q’ and “4o” enciphers “Qua”. [“Canc. duc. Arch. Proprio Mappe II. Nr 1.”] [p.35]: while for Florence, Meister includes the Cifra di Galiotto Fibindacci da Ricasoli 1424, where “4o” enciphers “Q” [p.50].
Meister’s book is available online here: http://sammlungen.ulb.uni-muenster.de/id/3075984
Thanks a lot
it is possible that the autor of this book is Rambam ??
nathanael: Rabbi Moses ben Maimon may well have hid a secondary (and far more esoteric) layer beneath the topmost layer of his works. But personally I don’t see any obvious detail, link or connection that could even tangentially bridge between Rambam and the Voynich Manuscript, sorry – please feel free to say so if you disagree. 😐
To Nick and all,
I recently came across an article on the internet about ” The Copper Scroll of Treasures ” (3Q15) Dead Sea Scrolls , found on 14 March, 1952 . It was found in Khirbet Qumran Cave 3 . The scroll was made of copper and ten percent tin. It lists the location of items of gold and silver and where they are supposed to be hidden or buried . The scroll is written on in the Hebrew Mishnah Language. What does everyone out there know about this ?
Forgive me if you’ve seen this, but as someone who enjoys your debunking of various theories, I thought you’d enjoy this, well, creation: https://www.safaribooksonline.com/blog/2014/11/08/nanogenmo2014-procedurally-generated-mysterious-codex/
Dianna: nice, though I wasn’t sure about “iirotllos” as a page title. 😉
Good morning, Nick,
I have been a fan of your excellent website for several years but this is my first question. Is the Ancient Cryptography Forum link correct? My browser takes me to a blank page at http://www.aerobushentertainment.com/crypto/index.php?
Solving the word puzzle at http://www.puzz.com/ancientcryptographysociety.html
directs me to the same blank webpage.
Many thanks,
Gale Garrett
Gale Garrett: the last snapshot of the Ancient Cryptography forum in the Wayback Machine was September 2015, so it would seem to have died since then. But even so, nobody had posted anything there since April 2015, so the forum as a whole would seem to have withered on the vine for some time before then. 🙁
Nick,
There appears to be no wordpress ‘follow’ option, and no ‘subscribe’ button – none visible on my version of windows.
Is this intentional?
Diane: the follow / subscribe buttons got lost in recent WordPress theme changes, and I’ve been trying (without success, obviously) to find time to reinstate them. The problem is that interesting books keep landing on my doorstep, and what’s a guy supposed to do when that happens, eh? 🙂
– send for more, of course. got to do our bit for the posties.
Diane: ah, yes… though when the 5000-page 1935 collection of Revue des Deux Mondes arrives in the next few days, I suspect the Communication Workers Union may lodge a formal complaint against my book-buying practices. 🙁
You need to include the Cipriot cipher.
Franklin Stöver: sorry, but I don’t know of any such thing – I do know about the Cypriot syllabary, but that’s not a mystery as such.
I think I figured out the Somerton man code then came an ID.
I sent an email to the media about it. The “Code” is an engineering algorithm for figuring cut points or stress points, nobody is going to understand the math unless they are a scientist/engineer, but the x on the “plane” gave it away. Research led me back to the B-36 design & secretary of defense Mr James Forrestal and people associated with him. So what happened to him? He was let go, then admitted to mental hospital & while there committed suicide. (Right, he probably had someone get him the heck out of the us. Anyway reading his diary now. Interesting stuff. I really believed this was going to be govt related. Wow.
I may be wrong…
Joachim Dathe have the answer for You.
Can I mention the Voynich Manuscript/facsimile review piece on page 82 of the February 2017 edition of Prospect.
Nick, I just learned today of Timothy Rayhel’s passing, and was very sad to hear of it. I I was looking to contact him about a shared interest in the Northumberland Manuscript. Would you please email me directly about this?
Nick: How would you recommend I best browse your posts so that I can easily find those that are of interest or relevant to my research? I tend to use the Search facility, but I could have easily missed some posts that are helpful.
There appears to be no way to filter so that only Voynich posts appear, which makes it somewhat more laborious looking back over old posts.
Alternatively, are there posts you might recommend that I may not have spotted that given what you know about my research you might think are relevant? Or our there old email chains you might recommend?
Sorry for the nuisance.
Many Thanks
Mark: I would strongly suggest using the Google search hack site:ciphermysteries.com to only search pages on ciphermysteries.com. You can use this same trick for just about any site (add the site name or part of it after site: e.g. site:.au will only search Australian sites etc).
Hi Nick !
If you’re ever in Houston I have some information for you
that I think would interest you. Also I’m trying to find someone that would
take this information to the next level.
Sincerely,
S. D.
S.D.: I’ve been to Dallas a few times through work, but never yet to Houston, sorry – perhaps in the future I’ll engineer a nice reason to do so. 🙂
If you want to email me in confidence, I’m nickpelling at nickpelling dot com, which is not exactly the most cryptic email address in the world. 😉
Thanks for getting back to me ! Will email you !
SD
Nick:
Isn’t there any new thread after Jan. 5th (Rubin cipher)? Don’t want to miss anything in your blog.
Thomas: I have a follow-up post planned on the Paul Rubin cipher, you’ll (probably) be pleased to hear. But regardless, please feel free to subscribe by email to Cipher Mysteries via the button on the right, it costs nothing. 🙂
Very interesting book “Mystery of Senzar” about decoding of Manuscript MS408 on Amazon
Nick: You can put this down as a request.
Your website obviously has lots of useful content. However it is not always easy to find what could be of interest to me and I am sure others. You have links from a specific post at the bottom to other posts which is helpful. Clearly the Search facility on the site is vital and clearly one can search the site by using Google. The problem with searching is that you have to start by knowing precisely what you are looking whilst I have tended to stumble upon something interesting on your site not specifically looking for it or knowing it is there. I think the ideal resolution of this issue would be by implementing some kind of category/menu structure. Or the opportunity to filter posts by cipher type i.e. “Voynich”, “Zodiac” etc. Being able to filter all posts related to methodological questions would be helpful or herbal manuscripts or astrology or “other” etc. (Although I have never used Voynich Ninja that site, whilst serving a different purpose, clearly subdivides contents more neatly.)
At some stage I may end up scrolling through all your posts to make sure I have not missed something of interest. However this would be pretty hard going.
On a somewhat related note, did you (Nick) not have a post here about the archive of Newbold material at Penn University? Or was this a discussion at some other place?
The reason for asking is that I am putting together a list of archives with Voynich-MS related material. It may be found here:
http://www.voynich.nu/archive.html
I welcome additional information known to anyone (but specifically related with the MS).
@ Nick, Rene, Mark & ennee other interested persons: Not a mystery, so to speak, but a complaint about Fire Chiefs who ignore persons who can validate VITAL information in regard to the location/s of the first flames of dreadful fire storms. One particular Fire Chief continued to name one of the hottest “hot-spots’ as Pawnee Road. HIs firemen could NOT find Pawnee Road — because that particular hot-spot was “Pawnee TRAIL” subdivision.
We vacated our home on Long Valley Road, immediately, after I realized that the Chief had no idea — and was not taking any information being offered by various home owners. Fortunately we were able to go to our vacation home (where I had recently perched a motor-home).
Our ranch has lost most of our two-hundred year old oak trees. We will eventually be able to return — and fervently hope that our springcreek has not been completely drained.
bd
Hi, this is a coded message under the stamp of a postcard sent by an Italian soldier during WWI and it’s currently on display in Rome, at the museum of the Vittoriano.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2uejzly.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/122gppu.jpg
Can you crack it? No one still succeeded
Milite Ignoto: thanks very much for this – I’ve just posted about your interesting “Palermo Cipher” here: http://ciphermysteries.com/2019/02/02/the-palermo-cipher , perhaps someone will now crack it for you. 🙂
Milite Ignoto: once I managed to transcribe it the right way round (*sigh*, thanks to Peter Moesli), it was actually quite straightforward to crack. I’d be interested in your comments and corrections! 🙂
I am deciphering the manuscript of Voynich and got positive results.
There is a key to cipher the Voynich manuscript.
The key to the cipher manuscript placed in the manuscript. It is placed throughout the text. Part of the key hints is placed on the sheet 14. With her help was able to translate a few dozen words that are completely relevant to the theme sections.
The Voynich manuscript is not written with letters. It is written in signs. Characters replace the letters of the alphabet one of the ancient language. Moreover, in the text there are 2 levels of encryption. I figured out the key by which the first section could read the following words: hemp, wearing hemp; food, food (sheet 20 at the numbering on the Internet); to clean (gut), knowledge, perhaps the desire, to drink, sweet beverage (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to believe (sheet 107); to drink; six; flourishing; increasing; intense; peas; sweet drink, nectar, etc. Is just the short words, 2-3 sign. To translate words with more than 2-3 characters requires knowledge of this ancient language. The fact that some symbols represent two letters. In the end, the word consisting of three characters can fit up to six letters. Three letters are superfluous. In the end, you need six characters to define the semantic word of three letters. Of course, without knowledge of this language make it very difficult even with a dictionary.
And most important. In the manuscript there is information about “the Holy Grail”.
I’m willing to share information.
Nikolai.
The Dorabella Cipher has been solved. Unlike the fakes, it is a real solution that uses basic cryptanalysis to a point. The rest was solved by a shotgun hill climber program which is also available from the same github account.
https://github.com/ShadowWolf387/DorabellaCipher
PBS AFT DALYRENCE MEET B BECO YOUR IDEDTD ALWASE
problems after dalliance meet be because your identity always
E STUNDER E THINC OLL OR IS IT HIS CH GUISE THNIC
eh stutter eh think all or is it his charming guise think
ABU IT ACOA
about it ????
and then cleaned up a bit more:
Problems after dalliance meet is because your identity always a stutter I think all or is it his (charming) guise? Think about it (acoa).
Check out my deciphering on 22FEB14 of THE DORABELLA CIPHER. It fits very well and makes a lot of sense.
On the ‘armadillo’ drawing:
Did you consider Tardigrades (aka Water Bears)?
It would fit with the water.
Speaking of ‘million piece jigsaw’, it is interesting that the edges around the creature have a puzzle shape, like several other images in the Voynich.
Regards,
Monica
Hello Nick I have enjoyed your analytical posts. I came across an alleged treasure with cipher you can see the link below. I have no idea in regards of validity of the claims. However it may be of interest to you.
https://www.iacr.org/misc/china/china.html
Gerry
Gerry: it’s an interesting story indeed, one that I’ve covered a few times:
* http://ciphermysteries.com/2015/03/15/that-chinese-gold-bar-cipher-thing
* https://ciphermysteries.com/2015/03/19/those-chinese-gold-bar-ciphers-once-again
Hi Nick
I need your help could you please email me [email protected]
may be you can help
Heya Nick. Just read your review of The Agony Column Codes & Ciphers by “Jean Palmer” from back in 2008. I have been trying like mad to track down this book – but to no avail. Was wondering if perhaps you might be able to point me in any helpful direction. ? Any chance you’d be willing to part with your copy? I’d offer a fair price! 🙂 Seriously, though… I am looking for a decent book with an abundance of the Agony Column ciphers included. If you can recommend an alternative, that would be great too. Any help is sincerely appreciated. Thanks for the great blog!
Hey Nick. I just watched a YouTube series on Cicada 3301… someone in the video mentioned the Dorabella cipher and a Google search landed me here. This site is amazing! Thanks a lot for the work you do. As for the Dorabella cipher… gosh, why are three lines of symbols keeping me up at night!? I love it… but I also hate it. Someone smarter than me solve this dang thing already!
Helmlinger: there’s something wonderfully frustrating about the Dorabella cipher that makes it what I call a proper cipher mystery. Is it music? (Elgar seems to have used the same shapes to denote musical notes elsehere in his papers.) Is it a cipher? (Again, Elgar also used them as cipher shapes in his notes.) Or worse, is it a misremembered cipher or a misexecuted cipher? I suspect the truth will turn out to be much simpler than codebreakers think, just a small step away from what they are expecting. Hopefully we shall see! 🙂
Check out my 22FEB14 deciphering of the Dorabella Cipher. I believe that it is the best work done on Elgar’s Cipher yet.
See my article
“The Voynich manuscript: the decipherment of ms. 408”
at
http://www.lingoblog.dk/en/the-voynich-manuscript-the-decipherment-of-ms-408/
hi
can anyone help me finding out the meaning of this symbol: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/urWLozPNSQz4KZBhte6AGms4fimdHhIQIfW9gRCGZS4mA_xyTO_l5o-m0dUkds_mkf2tXg=s85
thank you
let me know
Hello Nick, I’ve been leading a team of amateur researchers attempting to figure out the origins of the cipher manuscript “The Subtelty of Witches” (1657) which I first learned about through your blog. From what we’ve decoded and translated so far, it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with witches – it appears to just be the notes of a native Dutch speaker who was practicing Latin by copying phrases from other texts and adding their own translation notes. So nothing as juicy as the “title” implies, but that adds another layer of mystery – who added the title/author, when, and why?
Just thought you might like to know about these research efforts.
Hi Kat, yes – I noticed the viewer-count spike a little on the page where I mentioned The Subtlety of Witches a few days ago, and had a look then. Yes, from what you have found it is definitely a Latin-Dutch glossary of sorts. Perhaps the most interesting page to look at would be the very last one, that’s normally where extra information gets squeezed in. Cheers, Nick
PS: sorry that I haven’t got anything else much to add. 🙁
Found this cipher on Pinterest that was linked to your website, but the link is dead. Can you tell me about the origins of this cipher?
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/101823641549730334/
Bart Torbert: that’s my transcription alphabet for the Blitz Ciphers.
http://ciphermysteries.com/2011/12/22/announcing-the-blitz-ciphers
http://cipherfoundation.org/older-ciphers/blitz-ciphers/
Nick with your wide ranging inquiries you may already be aware of this but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZEHBkBlalc&t=31s
(unless, this is you?) Anyway a very in depth discussion that blows away Neubold and other such but draws no conclusions on its own.
Bart: right at the end, the video says “Created by Charles Snart”, which is an anagram not of “Nick Pelling” but of the far more poetic “Antlers Crash”. 😉
It’s very well presented, but the conclusions it draws towards the end are almost all too simplistic and over-hopeful for me (e.g. I wouldn’t for a New York second endorse Johannes Albus’ reading of f116v).
Bart – for my taste this is too little a video about the manuscript itself and far too much a tale about events that occurred as much as two centuries later and obsessively focused on the life of a man who wasn’t born when the manuscript was made, and whose connection with the manuscript is merely an offhand report of some allegations made, and none of which have received any solid support from documentary or material evidence. The ‘rudolf rumour’ is a positive hindrance to the manuscript’s study: too late, too inferential, and utterly unsupported by any material or documentary evidence to this day. The manuscript’s date is 1404-1438, as best we know at present. My advice is stick to the primary evidence and avoid back-projecting seventeenth-century culture onto the fifteenth century.
It is interesting, I think, that the documentary doesn’t include the fact that Baresch made copies for Kircher *because Kircher claimed to know every ancient script and language* and Baresch did not ask for a translation, but only that the *script* be identified. The implication is obvious – the language, as Baresch believed, was one he already knew, himself. He didn’t send the original because it had never been the custom to do so, and it was arrogant to the point of offensiveness (as was Kircher’s not replying directly to Baresch) to expect otherwise. What Neal interprets as ‘bumptiousness’ I interpret as an effort to control a sense of offence and maintain the conventions of civilised communication. After all, Baresch had gone to some trouble and expense and done so because Kircher appealed to the public for help.
Diane: given that the ‘Rudolf Rumour’ has both a letter written in good faith and an erased signature from a well-rewarded courtier of Rudolf, I think it sits streets ahead of everything else we have to say about the manuscript post-manufacture. Its quality may not be good enough for your personal evidential taste, but to deny it would seem to be somewhat churlish, sorry. 🙁
If you mean that Marci’s letter was written in good faith, I agree. If you assume Marci’s believed or endorsed the rumour – there we disagree. Marci had been Baresch’s friend for .. what, thirty or forty years before the latter’s death and the conversation with Mnishovsky must have occurred years before. So there’s one signal that the information wasn’t given much weight. It is added as an afterthought, a ‘completist’ note in the final letter of gift. Had Marci believed it, or heard the same from Baresch, or from the Jesuit community in which Siniapus lived for most of his life, then why so offhand a tone, and why had not Kircher heard anything of the sort from any of his other friends in Prague? Is Siniapus supposed to have stolen it? Where’s the evidence? Not even Newbold supported the idea. It’s not about “personal taste” but the opposite – an effort to get rid of the personality cult and focus on what relative weight should be given that single, tenuous, unsupported assertion.
I do tire of the way in which any effort to treat the ‘rudolf rumour’ as any other piece of historical assertion is immediately met with responses which assert more-or-less that if one were a ‘better and more pleasant person’ then one wouldn’t do other than adopt the conservative party line.
The evidence doesn’t stand up. If, tomorrow, the Prague lot find a genuine catalogue entry, or another letter to or from KIrcher which adds corroboration, then it has been proven something that was at least believed by more than one person. The same is true for the other two items attributed to Mnishovsky.
Is it ‘churlish’ to doubt the ‘Roger Bacon’ rumour? Is it ‘churlish’ to doubt the ‘six hundred ducats’ part of the same rumour? So why object to the third item, which has no more evidence in support than do the other two?
Or is Voynich studies devolving into a ‘god-made-kings-untouchable’ style of history?
PS – where’s the evidence that Sinapius was a ‘courtier’?
His lab was in the Jesuit enclave; his mentor was a physician chemist attending the locals as well as nobles. By this reasoning you could say every book in John Dee’s library must have been a gift from Elizabeth I. What is this ‘royal’ madness?
Dear Brother Pelling,
I have now taken instruction on this point of Voynich theology and write to say that I have been made aware of the correct position and of the related penalties for transgression.
As follows:
Of the three unsupported assertions attributed to Mnishovsky by Marci (to be correct I must refer to Mnishovsky as ‘Dr. Raphael’), there is one item which one may not believe without minor penalties, one to which is is better not to refer, and one which is regarded as an item of dogma, to doubt which is to incur severe penalties.
These three items are all attributed to Mnishovsky, within the same sentences in Marci’s letter, and none has found any corroboration.
They are:
(1) Roger Bacon wrote the manuscript. It is not permitted to accept this item wholeheartedly. Minor penalties apply to those not doubting it, chiefly ridicule and assertions that the speaker is ignorant.
(2) that a price of 600 ducats was paid. The acceptable position on this fine theological issue is to find some elegant way to avoid it. Among acceptable responses are *not* that ‘Dr Raphael’ was lying, or exaggerating, or even wrong but e.g that the price was “probably” for more than one book.
Since there is no evidence supporting that invention either, the ideal response is to pass the point in silence. Penalty for suggesting that Dr. Raphel was a liar includes castigation for ‘doubting the word of a central European nobleman’ (and see the ‘no true princess law’ below)
(3) that Rudolf had owned the manuscript. This is an item of doctrine. It is no excuse to claim that one has intellectual objections to it; all objections to items of doctrine will be deemed self-evident proof of the speaker’s inferior moral and social rank. For disputing this item of doctrine, the penalty is a public whipping, expulsion from the the elect and the anathema quietly circulated among any who wish to remain in the church (sorry, club).
I do understand that while all three assertions are attributed to a single person, and none has ever found evidence in support, that in such a delicate theological matter, it is no defence to claim intellectual objections. All objections will be deemed a matter of ‘personality’ and judged accordingly.
Heretics are deemed incapable of intellectual objections or processes, since (in true medieval style) the tenet is that the capacity for reason requires a superior character, and a character without faith is ‘as the beasts of the field’.
I understand, further, that any divergence from these items of dogma and doctrine will be treated as evidence of inferior moral character, the ‘no true princess’ rule therefore permitting my intellectual possessions to be re-distributed at random, my name erased from the official history of the Voynich church (sorry, – club) and my status publicly announced that of the servant (Eng. ‘churl’)
I hope I’ve recited this lesson accurately.
Sister Diane: if only history were as black and white as your habit. 🙂
Nick a recent video that might provide soem insight on 2 mysteries one on Tamid Shud, the other on that Norway case. What I found interesting is the video Tim Pool had done on this was pulled by Youtube. Why?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDnM8p4vnpI
Nick: I have been a little concerned that you have too few ciphers for you to work on, so I think I may have found one that you haven’t discussed:
Isdal Woman – Norway – Encrypted Notes
Mark: https://ciphermysteries.com/2015/09/20/the-cipher-in-room-214
Nick, a non-cipher topic here, but I’ve been meaning to ask you this for a while, perhaps there’s a link…
Did you ever watch Black Mirror’s 2018 interactive, ‘Bandersnatch’? Its 1984 setting must have been right around the time that a (very) young Nick Pelling was designing games for the ZX Spectrum. I went searching your name on the Web to see if you had any write-up with your thoughts about the film. …
So, I wish to know: Did they get the fictional Tuckersoft (Imagine Software) office look & feel right? While watching, I made a note to check the credits to see, if by chance, you had been a consultant.
Despite the horror subject matter, the programming topic must have brought back some fun memories of that era for you. I’m sure this is old news, but there was a nohzdyve.tap Easter egg d/l at the ‘Tuckersoft’ site, which—I just checked—I think the site link is gone. You know, all this makes me want to get my SX-64 out of storage and fire it up for some classic 80’s games! Cheers -Rob.
P.S. for personal nostalgia, and to further age myself: The film’s Wimpy and WHSmith signage were just like I remembered the last I time I was in England! 😀
Nick: Ah, you were there before me.
Nick,
I have managed to acquire a copy of “Experimenting with Paper Instruments in Fifteenth-and Sixteenth-Century Astronomy: Computing Syzygies with Isotemporal Lines and Salt Dish” if you haven’t been offered one already. Just email me.
Alistair: thanks very much for the offer, though I now have a copy. 🙂
Good to hear Nick. Looking forward to reading your observations.
Hello Nick,
Do you personally know Charles Snart, who recently produced a couple of Voynich Manuscript documentaries through Youtube. If you do, could you pass my email on to him. I have information that he might be interested in that adds to his documenatries regarding the Voynich manuscript. I have fournd a connection between Francesco I Gonzaga cipher communications with Simone De Crema and the Voynich manuscript.
Thanks,
Domingo
Nick, I came across your site attempting to research a ww2 “station log” document I have dated 6/6/1944 (d-day). This “form” is filled out with messages from d-day apparently but it is encoded so generally not readable though some entries do have readable text next to them.
An example entry is:
-OT-BT 6ABDC RRAOD SMGRC XBGT
Another entry as an example of one that has readable text:
-LC- Sent Msg No16 to 1st Bn
And later entry similiar to the above:
-AO- Sent Msg No17 to 2nd Bn
I really don’t expect to be able to decode this, but I would like to know if the encryption method used could be determined. For example, could this be an example of slidex? I would be willing to send you an actual image of one of the pages, if you would be interrested in taking a look.
Hi Richard, I’m always happy to have a look. My email is the (far from surprising) nickpelling /at/ nickpelling /dot/ com . Cheers, Nick
Hello
I would like contact Francois Parmentier who writen a very big study on “le rocher du Caro” ,on this blog.
I think i have trduce the texts..
Could you give me a way to contact him..
Yours faithfully
Julian
Nick, have you come across the DB Cooper ciphers? I hadn’t realised until recently that there was a cryptographical aspect to this mystery. Apparently some letters were mailed to various parties, zodiac style, and some people have claimed they got the name of a suspect from them.
Tamara Bunke: I was never able to get a clean original copy of the ciphers to work with, so haven’t blogged about them yet. There’s already way too much noise around D.B. Cooper, so I didn’t like to add any of my own. 🙂
Eradicate thieving plagiarists or enforce on line ‘cease to exist’ demands quick. No need for delaying in house enforcement complexities….Have Gun Will Travel, call X3639.
Cipher upon cipher to twirl and spin. I cracked the Beale papers in 1982. Articles in the LA Times . Boy o boy did the following headlines send a shockwave… to me, atleast. Yours truly, Maitreya
Stephen Young: Are you subtly trying to encourage people to email you or did you just put your email address in the wrong box?
There is a key to cipher the Voynich manuscript.
The key to the cipher manuscript placed in the manuscript. It is placed throughout the text. Part of the key hints is placed on the sheet 14. With her help was able to translate a few dozen words that are completely relevant to the theme sections.
The Voynich manuscript is not written with letters. It is written in signs. Characters replace the letters of the alphabet one of the ancient language. Moreover, in the text there are 2 levels of encryption. I figured out the key by which the first section could read the following words: hemp, wearing hemp; food, food (sheet 20 at the numbering on the Internet); to clean (gut), knowledge, perhaps the desire, to drink, sweet beverage (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to believe (sheet 107); to drink; six; flourishing; increasing; intense; peas; sweet drink, nectar, etc. Is just the short words, 2-3 sign. To translate words with more than 2-3 characters requires knowledge of this ancient language. The fact that some symbols represent two letters. In the end, the word consisting of three characters can fit up to six letters. Three letters are superfluous. In the end, you need six characters to define the semantic word of three letters. Of course, without knowledge of this language make it very difficult even with a dictionary.
Much attention in the manuscript is paid to the health of women for the purpose of giving birth to healthy offspring.
And most important. In the manuscript there is information about “the Holy Grail”.
I am ready to share information, but only with those who are seriously interested in deciphering the Voynich manuscript.
Nikolai.
I have been posting this information for 6 years, but no one is interested in it. I can’t figure out why. I am already many years old and I may not have time to complete this work. I need to find employees willing to complete the translation of Voynich’s manuscript.
Nick: As you have seen I brought up the subject of the DECODE cipher database on the Ninja forum. I daresay that I should have mentioned it here as your site is all about ciphers.
I have no idea what historical range their database covers and which and how many ciphers they have in their database. Beata who runs the database seems quite well informed, though not as well informed as I am regarding the primo quattrocento cifrari.
If you wish to have a login to their database then I can request one for you or I would think it would be fine for you to request one yourself.
As I said on Ninja, my interest in them and their database is really that I think they will most likely be able to assist me in my hunt and I can assist them in theirs. They also have contacts who may be useful in assisting me in my hunt.
Nick FYI just today: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-12/zodiac-killer-code-cracked-by-australian-mathematician/12977342
NICK & all,
I have always been interested in UFOs. A television Program about the Rendlesham Binary Code has rekindled my interest. Binary Code decoding by Joe Luciano is very intriguing. What is the meaning of it ? What does the ” ORIGIN YEAR 8100 “, mean ? Why are the Longitude & Latitude Coordinates of certain specific locations given ? I think that this is definitely a code worth posting and looking into on your site Nick.
Hello Cryptographers,
Here is a puzzle that has not been solved for years. It is from Vladimir Nabokov’s 1963 novel, PALE FIRE:
Pada ata lane pad not ogo old wart alan ther tale feur far rant land tal told
Readers and critics believe they have solved it through sounding it out:
“Papa do not go across the lane to old Goldsworth’s, as an atalanta butterfly dances by, after finishing PALE FIRE.”
In the story, this is a message from a spirit to a poet’s daughter that her father will be murdered in the lane of his neighbor, Goldsworth. This does indeed happen just as the poet finishes his poem, PALE FIRE, as a Vanessa atalanta butterfly flits by.
I am a great fan of the brilliant paronomast Nabokov, and can’t believe he would be so awkward. PALE FIRE is written on several levels, and I believe this solution is meant for the less astute readers. My suspicion is that it is a couplet in heroic iambic pentameter; the break is at “old” and rhymes with “told”. (this is because the poem, PALE FIRE is written in iambic pentameter) The novel is full of allusions to the occult and life after death, so I think the solution will speak to that. There are also many allusions to Shakespeare and Pope and Swift (also in iambic pentameter).
A would love to see if anyone can solve this. Thanks!
Mary
Hello, here’s an Italian cipher, still undeciphered: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https://www.angolohermes.com/luoghi/puglia/Bari/crittogramma.html
A little fun with a hidden Martian message:
There Was a Hidden Message in Mars Perseverance’s Parachute
https://thesilicongraybeard.blogspot.com/2021/03/there-was-hidden-message-in-mars.html
There is a key to cipher the Voynich manuscript.
The key to the cipher manuscript placed in the manuscript. It is placed throughout the text. Part of the key hints is placed on the sheet 14. With her help was able to translate a few dozen words that are completely relevant to the theme sections.
The Voynich manuscript is not written with letters. It is written in signs. Characters replace the letters of the alphabet one of the ancient language. Moreover, in the text there are 2 levels of encryption. I figured out the key by which the first section could read the following words: hemp, wearing hemp; food, food (sheet 20 at the numbering on the Internet); to clean (gut), knowledge, perhaps the desire, to drink, sweet beverage (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to believe (sheet 107); to drink; six; flourishing; increasing; intense; peas; sweet drink, nectar, etc. Is just the short words, 2-3 sign. To translate words with more than 2-3 characters requires knowledge of this ancient language. The fact that some symbols represent two letters. In the end, the word consisting of three characters can fit up to six letters. Three letters are superfluous. In the end, you need six characters to define the semantic word of three letters. Of course, without knowledge of this language make it very difficult even with a dictionary.
Much attention in the manuscript is paid to the health of women for the purpose of giving birth to healthy offspring.
And most important. In the manuscript there is information about “the Holy Grail”.
I am ready to share information, but only with those who are seriously interested in deciphering the Voynich manuscript.
Nikolai.
I HAVE CRACKED THE CODE< I KNOW WHAT IT SAYS I KNOW THE LOCATION I KNOPW HIS NAME SOME CONTACT ME ASAPPPPPPP
[email protected]
Hi,
Regarding the decodification of the Voynich Manuscript, I’ve published my paper on Academia. Edu.
These are the links:
https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/59536864
https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/60165715
Best regards
Maria Rita Lunazzi
How do I submit a cipher’s solution without someone taking credit? I also can’t find my previous comment in this page of this website.
Ha B: anyone who wants to run a possible solution past me in confidence can just email me (nickpelling at nickpelling dot com, which is not exactly the hardest email to guess). Always happy to discuss crypto stuff!
PS: you left your original comment on a different page here – https://ciphermysteries.com/the-voynich-manuscript
Hi, friend. John Pelling
I can also send you a solution for the text MS – 408. I would write it here. What is written on the last page of the manuscript (116). Where Eliška wrote very nicely what scientists and ants must have been interested in for about 100 years. I will write it in the Czech language. Then in numbers. And then in English. Surely John, you know how big the difference is between our languages. Huge. Czech has a different word composition. And so I will write the English translation word for word. You will be the second John in the world to finally read it. Of course, I’m the first.
Otherwise, the woman writes something about ed. :-))) so it’s miserable. I looked at it. Misery and suffering.
Hello . Friend John Pelling.
I understand that you have a lot of work and so you are not interested in VM solutions at all. You are currently dealing with balloons. When you finally have time to find out what is written on the last page of the manuscript, feel free to write it here. I have enough time. And patience too. I know you’ve been working on a manuscript solution for a long time. Many years. You also published a very nice book. Which, of course, I don’t read. Because it’s English. (Cursed Voynich). In that book, you’re sure to explain to the ants what you found out about the manuscript. What are those pipes in Rome? There is a lot and a lot of pipes in the manuscript. Of course, these are not sewer pipes. Wastewater was discharged into the river. But that’s a very good idea. But as I found out, everything is different. They are not pipes! It’s a drawn word (lived). Česky = žila. (žíla). English = lived. (vein). Punctuation depends on this word. Comma or dot.
When you look at the picture. So there it is drawn: 6 + 1 lived. Czech = lived. 6 daughters + 1 mother. It’s very easy to understand. Or not ?
(live). (vein). very simple. ( žila, žíla ). Czech language . Žilo 6 dcer + 1 matka.
Eliška byla po matce Polka. A tak používá polské slovo = cora , nebo corka. ( cora = daughters ). ( czech = dcera. polsky = cora, anglicky = daughters ).
Hi Nick : I would like to tell you something, you are aware of Sonja who put CC then 4 numbers after them. What that is – is words related to solar and installation. You type the word, then the secret word is “solar”. Almost every one of the misspelled words in ciphers, regular letters, cards, text – they are clues as to what he does, where he gets his licenses (he still does the same thing) Some examples _ Paradice, DOB, YOB, Ct, Cn, Averly (he wants you to see this spelling, woeman, competitors, products, theres too many to list. He tells you how he does his job, where he gets his licenses (two) hes kind of proud of it. If this was discovered 50 years ago, you would have his name and a ton of clues for every misspelled word everywhere in the communications. Its your clue to do something else to find the real meaning. Perfect job for stalker – from a rooftop. If you get nothing, then truly you have a misspelled word. Thanks!
Hello Nick,
I have found the place, Where John Cruise Wilkins IS looking for.
The TREASURE of la Buse,
Can you controll it?
It is CORMORAN, Not the seychells..
Please answer me
[email protected]
Thank you so much
Surching Sandra from germany
Dear Mr. Pelling,
Thank you for all your work here. I was just bitten by the VM bug a week or so ago, and was happy to find your authoritative critical voice in the sea of speculative, aspirational, ego-driven drivel.
Is your book still in print, that I might order it?
I’m dying to ask some questions here, but I am certain they are hopelessly insipid, remedial and stupid. I have no particular qualifications to speak here, so I’m apprehensive about asking questions beneath the baseline of discussion and wasting your time.
On the other hand… Good grief if this isn’t the most mesmerizing, fascinating, all-consuming puzzle one could ever come across. I’m a week in and can’t stop thinking of it.
Anyhow, May I try formulating a coherent question for you? Would it be better here in the forum, or privately via email? I’d be awfully grateful for your insight.
-a
Aaron David: my book is now out of print (alas), but it’s probably not what you need right now. I’d instead recommend looking at Rene Zandbergen’s site – http://voynich.nu – whic covers all manner of Voynichiana, though note that his main focus is on the manuscript’s post-Kircher history. The Wikipedia Voynich page is only for completists and those with too much time on their hands.
I’d also add that Voynich research is going through a bit of a mid-life crisis right now: the tree of research possibilities is largely bare, except for highly specialised angles. Maybe something good will pop up and break this impasse in an instant… but best not hold your breath waiting for this to happen.
I’m always happy to answer Voynich questions ( I’m nickpelling at nickpelling dot com ), but Rene’s site should comfortably answer most of them. 😉
Nick: Great time to have an abridged version of your book back on the shelves, with Voynicheros now hard pressed to save their inflated egos whilst promoting ridiculous new directions. All who read the original would agree that the good parts were very good, being likely to hold their own against the usual carbon friendly mainstream crap…All you’d need to do would be to tone down misdirected assertions on Filarette having been prime suspect for authorship; no real need to delete some histerically entertaining stuff vis a vis Tony Averlino the apiarist, his Kremlin swallow tail merlons and advanced Byzantinian flushing toilets circa. 1455 etc.
Hi Nick, With regard to the Somerton Man – Carl “Charles” Webb or more particularly the “code”.
Is it possible that Webb was a Freemason? I am a member of the Craft and I don’t think that I am disclosing anything confidential when I say that a lot of the proceedings inside the Lodge meeting room involve the delivery of “charges”. These charges are passages from the Lodge Ritual that have to be memorised. Some charges are quite lengthy and as a memory prompt some brethren will make up a small sheet with just the first letter of crucial words. These words are often not necessarily the first in a passage but more likely to be where the person delivering the charge pauses to draw breath or where a word won’t stick in the memory.
If you found out that Webb was a Freemason it would also pay to ascertain if he was a member of any other Orders as each order has it’s own Ritual with the result that there are more charges that the code may relate to.
This might just led you to another dead end but if Webb was a mason the craft maintain very good records of their members – it might just put some more colour on the Somerton Man. Kind regards.
Hi Nick,
You might be interested in a 50c coin released in Australia to celebrate Australian Signals Directorate 75th anniversary with four levels of coded messages.
It may give a few hours of fun.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-01/act-spy-agency-releases-coin-with-secret-code/101391964
Very much like your site.
Regards,
Mark
Hello Nick
Is it possible to use images from Cipher foundation for a publication ?
Since July I’m not receiving mail notices when new posts are published on your web site. I’ve never been good at regularly accessing interesting sites without being prompted. I’m sure I’m not blocking Cypher Mysteries as a sender, so what can I do? Thanks!
Hi Nick- in the wow signal are two more words, they are warnings to us. One says Watch Gliese 581 D. Scientists have said if anyone could live in space, its that plant, Its also close to Sagittarius. I researched more, and supposedly that plant has some people here. I sent to DOD. I forgot the second word, but it is another warning. I dont know about this. Thanks, Sharon
Hi Nick – discovered something today. Carmel is nothing but a stage prop, it is NOT a computer of any kind. LOL .” Yes, Carmel the computer was a stage prop for the Hearst”
Hi Nick. On Cipherbrain, I found a group of cryptograms known as “Noita Eye Cryptograms”, and there are nine of them. You can know more about them here: https://scienceblogs.de/klausis-krypto-kolumne/2022/12/21/neues-zu-den-noita-kryptogrammen/#comment-1794306
Good day!
Your site has information about the Voynich manuscript.
I am deciphering the Voynich manuscript and received a positive result.
There is a key to cipher the Voynich manuscript.
The key to the cipher manuscript placed in the manuscript. It is placed throughout the text. Part of the key hints is placed on the sheet 14. With her help was able to translate a few dozen words that are completely relevant to the theme sections.
The Voynich manuscript is not written with letters. It is written in signs. Characters replace the letters of the alphabet one of the ancient language. Moreover, in the text there are 2 levels of encryption. I figured out the key by which the first section could read the following words: hemp, wearing hemp; food, food (sheet 20 at the numbering on the Internet); to clean (gut), knowledge, perhaps the desire, to drink, sweet beverage (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to believe (sheet 107); to drink; six; flourishing; increasing; intense; peas; sweet drink, nectar, etc. Is just the short words, 2-3 sign. To translate words with more than 2-3 characters requires knowledge of this ancient language. The fact that some symbols represent two letters. In the end, the word consisting of three characters can fit up to six letters. Three letters are superfluous. In the end, you need six characters to define the semantic word of three letters. Of course, without knowledge of this language make it very difficult even with a We can say that the Voynich manuscript is an encyclopedia of knowledge that humanity needs today. I managed to partially solve the mystery of mount Kailas ( for example, its height is 6825 meters). The manuscript indicates the place where the Grail Is hidden, as well as the Font and Cradle of Jesus.
For more information, see my article https://scieuro.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/february-2020.pdf
Hi Nikolai. It is nice.
Write here in the comment how the word – six is written in the manuscript.
I will look into it and then write you ad hominem or otherwise.
Lost letters written by Mary, Queen of Scots found in French library !!
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-09/codebreakers-decipher-mary-queen-of-scots-letters/101954460
Next project??
Hi the dreamers, the passionates and pirates,
I need your help in order to achieve the location of the Buzzard’s treasure. I opened an online money pot where i explain the different levels of the codings and the location of the treasure.
I rely on rely on you 🏴☠️🫶
Regards
https://www.leetchi.com/c/a-la-decouverte-du-tresor-dolivier-levasseur-aka-la-buse?utm_source=copylink&utm_medium=social_sharing
I have a conjecture, which is probably pretty obvious, and yet which there seems to be a tendency to deny especially in the case of the Voynich manuscript.
This is namely that: “it is often much much easier to invent a cipher than to break it.”
The basis from which Gordon Rudd and the like have often said that the Voynich cannot be written in cipher is that if it were then it would have be deciphered by modern cryptographic techniques. I think this overestimates the power of modern cryptographic techniques and underestimates the easy with which a difficult cipher can be created.
To use a phrase that you introduced me to there is “security through obscurity”. And I don’t think one needs to be a genius with some effort to produce a pretty obscure cipher. It would not even need to be academically a clever cipher just have a combination of bizarre obscure features. You would have to give it some thought and effort to come up with a cipher, but I doubt it is that difficult. It seems to me that the Zodiac cipher and the like prove this point. There is no reason to believe the Zodiac killer was an expert cryptographer.
I raise this as I get frustrated when I hear the argument that the Voynich cannot be written in cipher, because if it was it almost certainly would have been deciphered by now.
I think an important restriction on the complexity of a cipher tends to be practicality. One can pile cipher upon cipher upon cipher, combining lots of different cipher techniques, however it the cipher becomes too complicated then with the absense of a computer it can become impossible for a human apply correctly in a timely manner without making mistakes. So practicality or usability is really the force that holds back a cipher’s complexity.
Mark Knowles: in my opinion, asserting that the absence of a decryption somehow ‘proves’ that a thing is not encrypted is at best a fairly pathetic fallacy, and at worst a thoroughly tragic non-argument.
The most likely scenario for many unsolved cipher mysteries, in my opinion, is that people have miscategorised the underlying language etc, causing all their clever analysis to achieve basically nothing.
I also think that the language or writing is the main problem.
I am thinking of a linguistic study about 30 years ago of a dialect in northern Italy. The local population always assumed that they spoke an Italian or Romance dialect. However, studies have shown that it is a Slavic dialect with a tendency towards Romance.
As there is almost no written evidence, I have to rely on the surrounding evidence.
If I now consider the example of f116, where it is still not really clear what is actually meant, even though it is not encoded. Even language specialists have not really got to grips with it and come up with a solution.
I myself have also tried it. Although with a dictionary, and everything proven, and a comprehensible context, still no 100% confirmation.
Example:
“portas or portad” portas as door, gate, or even the Haven ( from o Porto ).
Or portad from importante ( important ).
And all this without encryption. Imagine that with encryption. How to judge and even solve it there.
Even if only nonsense was written, it needs a system. Because if 5 writers write nonsense and it looks the same, there is a system (key) that causes it.
If someone claims to know the author, who were the other 4?
How important is the indication that there are several writers? I put it today the same as the C-14 proof of age.
If 5 people have the same writing tolerance, then something is rotten in the state of Denmark. (idiom)
Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Aga Tentakulas
More like something not so rotten, but devious nonetheless in Dickie Garnett”s
British Museum library reading room circa. 1890 – 1899 for mine!
Mark Knowles. Comrades and friends. The handwriting is a cipher. As I already wrote to you dear Mark. It’s a Jewish cipher. A very nice but at the same time very difficult cipher. This cipher requires a lot of thought. This is not a job for some students or ants. This is where a quality scientist has to step in. And a scientist who has the necessary knowledge and quality education. You have it, dear Mark. And so I hope you will come up with the code soon. Fingers crossed for you. As I have already written to you several times.
Josef: Do you have any examples of Jewish ciphers from the time from which the Voynich has been carbon dated in books or archives or other documents? I don’t mean theories about what they might be like, but real examples. I have seen very advanced ciphers of the time, but not any advanced Jewish ciphers. If you have found any I would be happy to add them to my collection and compare them with others.
Josef: The Atbash cipher is a very simple Jewish cipher, so obviously I would be interested in something more sophisticated.
John Sanders,
Are you suggesting that the second Richard Garnett invented Voynichese? Or are you using a garbled version of what I’ve argued in connection with Newbold’s apparently arbitrary association of Neoplatonic ideas with certain of the ‘ladies’ drawings?
What I noted was a possibility that Newbold’s notion of at least one of those drawings as a depiction of the soul’s rebirth was something he received from Wilfrid as “an idea”, but one that Wilfrid could have gained thanks to long acquaintance with the British Museum’s library and familiarity with that same Richard Garnett who had written a monograph in the 1880s entitled “The Soul and the Stars.” There is no way to prove or argue that transmission of the basic idea from Garnett to Wilfrid to Newbold, so unless Newbold himself mentions it somewhere, all I’ve offered is a bare possibility.
Mark: all the specifically Jewish ciphers I can recall are many centuries older. Is there an early section on this in the fat edition of Kahn’s The Codebreakers?
Nick: Josef keeps repeating that I look at Jewish ciphers, so it seems a bit discourteous of me to repeatedly ignore him. I am not aware of any Jewish ciphers of the time, but if Josef has located any real Jewish ciphers, apart from within his theory, then I would be prepared to look at them. If his ciphers are hypothetical, very simple or much later then I can pay little attention to them without seeming rude.
Mark Knowles. As I have written many times. It is important to know – Cabalistic Numerology Cipher. When every letter has its numerical value. ( 1 = a,i,j,g,y ). ( 2 = b,r,,k ). ( 3 = c,g,s,l ). ( 4 = d,m,t ) etc.
Author of the manuscript. This shows at the beginning of the manuscript. Page 2 R.
The root is the base of the plant ( C,G,S,L ).
The letter is the basis.
The basis of each word is – a letter.
In the text of the manuscript it is written = I write in Czech. And my name is Eliška. I was born in 1466.
Otherwise, more manuscripts and books are written this way. I have examined about 10 of them so far. And found the same encryption.
It is also important to know the signs in the handwriting. Without the knowledge and determination of the correct characters, no one can decipher the manuscript.
The Torah is also written in this way of encryption.
Josef: I am interested in examples from the time of the Voynich 1404-1438 of Jewish ciphers.
1466? The manuscript dates from long before then.
Do any of these books that you mention date from the time of the Voynich? If so can you let me know the names of them.
Mark Knowles. Sure I can. Here is a very nice book. Heidelberg COD. PAL Germ. 76
Author: Johannes von Saaz (born 1350, died 1414).
Title of the manuscript: Der Ackermann aus Böhmen.
Diane
Sorry none of the above mate. Suggest you go back to some of my Mary Boole family posts where the answers you’re seeking are in plain sight. They have nothing at all to do with your own garbelled Newbold notions or that either Garnett invented (?) Voynich the manuscript perse., Think about it as a layperson might and not as a stuffed shirt, so called Voynich scholar and you’ll likely pick up on what I have been trying to get across to local punters for some considerable time, both here and on Rich Santacalomas self serving site.
Mark. You write. 1466?
Friend, when it is written at the beginning of the manuscript: I was born in 1466. So a smart scientist should also know that this date and year are very important for the creation of the manuscript.
1466 is written on side – 1v.
Greg H. of the University of Arizona. He was mistaken. His test is wrong.
Josef: The carbon dating of the manuscript dates the manuscript to between 1404 and 1438, so the author of the manuscript could not have been born in 1466. This dating has been corroborated with other data.
Maybe, with all due respect, the test performed at the University of Arizona was right and your theory is wrong; have you considered this possibility?
Mark. With all due respect. When it is written in the text of the manuscript. And that at the beginning. So logically, carbon 14 is bad. I already wrote here. That I am willing to bet with any scientist. By 10,000 euros. That I’m right.
There is one possibility. and The fact that the parchment was lying in a box somewhere for a certain period of time. Before Eliška started writing to him. This is also possible.
What I write. There is no theory. This is the final solution.
Scientist Mark. Why are you apologizing to Nick P. You are not allowed to discuss with me? 🙂 Every scientist and academic should know that discussion is important. And especially in this case MS 408. About which foreign scientists know nothing at all. Even if scientists try for a hundred years, they know nothing. Discourse is important. I will show you the way. Which every smart scientist should go after. Then it will be good.
Mark. Surely, as a scientist, you know how many test nuclear explosions have been carried out in the last hundred years. All of this will affect your C-14 test. Otherwise, an accurate test nowadays for a certain year is utopia.
Josef: I like the idea of a 10,000 euros bet. Do you have 10,000 euros? And what criteria do you propose you would accept to prove or disprove it? And would you honestly be prepared to part with them?
So have you looked at the University of Arizona analysis? Where precisely in their analysis do you allege they made a mistake?
Josef: When do you propose that the Voynich manuscript was written? Are you suggesting the author used parchment that was at least 40 years old to write the Voynich?
@Joseph
I don’t understand
Johannes von Tepl was a German poet, town clerk and notary.
The book is written in German and produced in Stuttgart around 1470 by order of Margarethe of Savoy. Daughter of Pope “Felix V
Where is your Jewish cipher?
Josef: I can’t see “1466” written on side 1v
Maybe you are mistaken. I can only assume that with your cryptographic interpretation you think it says “1466” somewhere. This is much less persuasive than the carbon dating.
Josef: This kind of mapping that you describe can lead to so much flexibility that all sorts of possible texts can fit->
( 1 = a,i,j,g,y ). ( 2 = b,r,,k ). ( 3 = c,g,s,l ). ( 4 = d,m,t ) etc.
If “a” and “i” and “g” and “y” can be represented by the digit “1” this can lead to so much flexibility in the interpretation of the text; this is another example of the classic problem, of so many degrees of freedom, that so many claimed decipherments face.
Imagine a cipher where every Voynich glyph could represent any letter of the latin alphabet that one wished, then any text one could think of would fit the Voynich text.
Mark. You spell that wrong. It’s not that you can write any letter. Any no. No.
There is a limitation. 1 = a,i,j,q,y. You cannot any other letter. You can only from the letters – A.I.J.Q.Y. No other.
Where the letter = a. You cannot read the letter B.C.D.E.F.G etc.
Where the letter = a. the letter A.I.J.Q.Y is read.
Very complex and very difficult substitution if you don’t know the language.
Peter. You must read the wiki well. Then you find out that he was not German.
John of Teplé (monastery near Marianske Lázně = Bohemia)
John of Šitboř (cloister near Domažlice = Bohemia)
Jan of Žatec (city in northern Bohemia).
Jan was born in Šitboř in 1350.
He died in 1414 Prague. ( his trail ends there ).
Manuscript Plowman from Bohemia. It is a very popular manuscript in the Middle Ages. There are many copies of it. I know the Heidelberg copy of it (where the coats of arms of Margaret of Savoy and Ulrich Württenberg are). And then the Karlsruhe copy (Basel print 1473).
German scientists and academics write about the manuscript of stupidity.
The text talks about the Plowman. And his name was correctly Přemysl Oráč. He was an important figure in Czech history. And the founder of the royal family of Přemyslovci. This is the correct meaning of the Plowman manuscript text.
Josef Zlatoděj Prof.
Please help me with the translation. I’m lost in:
http://ds.euweb.cz/voynich-manuscript/MS408-1v.html
Josef: If I understand what you are saying then in English:
“bay-“> “211”
“rig”->”211″
and “big” and “ray” and “bag” all map to “211”
That is quite a high degree of freedom in interpreting a short string like “211”
Josef: In the Cod. Pal. Germ. 76 on which page do you claim there is a cipher?
Mark Knowles: you seem to have aquired newfound interest in carbon dating as opposed to Milanese ciphers which you appear to have put on hold at least for the time being. Your unquestioning acceptance of Greg Hodges C14 1404/38 date range based on limited testing without input of essential C3/C4 isotopic carbon transfer data is noted. This is a reflection on a complete lack of subject familiarity and thereby precludes you from making unqualified comments. My advice being that you torna to Milano post haste and resume your sad aimless pursuit of diplomatic ciphers.
@Joseph
I’m sorry, but Johann Tepl or Johann von Saaz was a German prose poet and not Czech.
Your main problem is that you name everything in Czech where German actually belongs.
That is the reason:
After the end of WWI and the division of the Habsburg Empire, Bohemia and Moravia were left to the Slavic-speaking tribe.
Although according to the treaty of the victorious powers no Germans were to be expelled, the expulsion of 3 million Germans began only 10 days later. This was avenged 20 years later by Hitler.
Every town was given a Czech name, including streets and much more.
Point blank. The Czech Republic was founded in 1918, and this is where your history begins.
Johann von Saaz. Saaz, that was the name of the place before 1918.
And her name was Elisabeth von Rosenberg. That was her name before 1918.
The Rosenbers were Wittigoners, which is a German noble family.
The name Czech as a script came only through Jan Hus. He was probably the first to translate Old Slavonic (Cyril) with the Latin alphabet. There are no books in Czech before 1350.
To make it even clearer. Bohemia and Moravia had been in Habsburg hands since 1275. Political marriage of Anna von Habsburg with King Wenceslas. She was only 10 years old. After Wenceslas’ death, she officially married the King of Poland, which also placed Bohemia under Polish law.
Then came Luxenburg, Hungary with Vladislam and German kings. From 1516 finally until 1918 Habsburg again. There is no Czech nobility and until the Hussite wars (peasant uprising) it was the language of the peasants with a share of about 20%, and that only in the east.
100 years of the Czech Republic, that’s all.
To return to the book.
It is written in German and not in Czech. I can read it easily.
The question remains. Where is the Jewish cipher. Bring an example. You write that there are some and bring the book as an example.
Petr 🙂 Běž do prdele s těma tvejma kecma. Znáš hovno.
Mark. Money is not the problem. I have enough of them. And how is it with you? Do you have 10,000 euros?
Mark, are you asking where 1466 is written? As I already wrote. So the manuscript is written in the Czech language (old). This is written by the author on his pages. The author writes: I write in Czech. Or the author writes: Czech words.
To the year 1466. page 1V. All letters = are numbers. So when you are able to read the text. So you will read: There are 14 green leaves. And there are six and six golden leaves. And that is my date of birth.
That’s what the author writes. Eliška from Rožmberk.
Mark. There are 2 characters ( letters ) on one green sheet. Those letters are = J and T.
( Jewish substitution = number 1 = A,I,J,Q…..number 4 = T,M,D )
JT = 14.
All letters are numbers. A very complex substitution. Only good scientists know that. And maybe even a Rabbi.
When the author writes I was born in 1466. So a scientist who will think logically will surely find out that C-14 ( G.H ) must be wrong.
@Joseph
You can swear all you want, but it doesn’t change the fact.
Here you have examples of what you see as old Czech. The correct term is West Slavic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims_Gospel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius_of_S%C3%A1zava
Josef: You don’t get peoples’ respect by swearing at them and calling them ants. That is a very bad strategy if you want people to take your theory seriously.
John Sanders: I have not become much more interested in the carbon dating than I was before. I intend at some point to look at the research, however I doubt the dating is drastically off.
You are quite wrong about my putting the Milanese ciphers on hold. I am always trying to push forward in that area, though given the scarcity of them it is not an easy task.
You have no idea of the extent of my research into ciphers from that time as you haven’t seen my collection and I am not permitted to make the countless images of ciphers public due to the legal restrictions that the archives have.
So you are an expert on carbon dating?
Milan is surprisingly not necessarily the best place to look for Milanese ciphers from the period in question due to the 1447 fire.
I must say that you have changed. When I first started commenting here you seemed very jovial, although you had a somewhat eccentric and possibly literary style of writing. Now you seem embittered and negative. What’s happened?
Mark. Am I swearing at someone? And how? Mark, you must have missed one very important thing. And here it is: That Nick wrote an article in which he also writes that everyone is working diligently on the manuscript: Like ants.
So scientists are working diligently like ants. It is certainly a good thing that they work as diligently as ants. But so far they work as poorly as ants. They work poorly and that’s bad. That’s why I’m in the world to teach the ants something.
Mark. And what is respect? respect is nothing. It is important to know. It is well. Currently, I also teach at the Czech Academy of Sciences. There, they also have a wasteland in their heads. ( empty ). When the time comes, I will also start teaching at the German Academy of Sciences. They don’t have the necessary information there either. And that’s why they write very badly about Plowman from Bohemia.
You are a good scientist Mark. You can tell by how you write. Other good scientists are: Nick Pelling, John Sanders and others.
Only this comment: Žatec, before the Přemyslovci and the Germans came was an old Vrsines land – but not a nice, cosy place but a damn, killing spot.
Peter. Don’t teach me Czech history. The history of the Czech Republic is old and very old. So old that Switzerland didn’t exist yet. When life was already here. Then a Czech went to the Alps. He settled there and started raising cows. Milka. Then invent cheese. With holes. And he began to blow on a long pipe. When his wife heard that, she started yodeling with joy. Well, you’ve been yodeling ever since.
🙂
Mark Knowles: you’re right of course, my knowledge of Milanese Dip. ciphers are somewhat lacking, actually totally non existent, in much the same manner as is my understanding of carbon dating beyond the basics. I am however cognizant that certain additional input data such as allowing for isotopic dietry carbon tranfers be an essential ingredient for success of the process. If C3 or C4 feeding paterns for the donor animal cannot be factored in which must have been the case with Rene Zandenberg’s five collagen protein containing velum samples, then the dating could be out by an estimated 450 years. Bet you ten thousand euros you didn’t know that; nor did Greg Hodges or Rene Z. apparently. Sorry to be harsh but I’ve raised this subject often enough and in much more detail, for you to have picked up on had you been on the ball or interested in anything but diplomatic cipher and glyph text identification and it pisses me off mugger, I kid you not.
Josef Zlatoděj Prof.
Jednou jsi psat, že se podíváš na to, co píšu…
Tak jsem něco napsal.
K textu, kde se píše, kdy se Eliška narodila. Zkoušel jsem to podle tvého návodu. S tím, co jsi o tom napsal a pořád dokola píšeš na internetu jsem dospěl k tomu, že první řádek mi vychází
LTOCSQ OCO8AM OE OELTOCCQ OCAR OPCAR AIE
C-O.SSI.ZLOF.ITOE. ZEL-O(3).LIZ.CIRO.P.SIR.JAN
Mám problém poznat, co je S a co R, také si nejsem jistý co je M,H nebo LT, viz
http://ds.euweb.cz/voynich-manuscript/MS408-1v.html
Přepis do soudobé češtiny tedy je:
Co tu píše slova je zelená 3, Liz, dcera, osmá, sira Jana ?
Zelená 3 je odkaz na namalovanou rostlinu, která vypadá, že by mohla reprezentovat číslo 3, květ, stonek, znaky na kořenu a tedy že ten, kdo píše je ta rostlina?
Osmá dcera se nehodí, stejně tak se nehodí šestá dcera, takže P znamená jen osmá?
Je tam něco špatně?
John Sanders: Well, I have a suggestion for you. Why don’t you write a very polite and respectful email to Greg Hodgins at the University of Arizona querying this concern of yours? You should have no difficulty finding his email address; if you can’t find it ask me. Maybe you can ask him politely if he can refer you to a text on the subject. Don’t start by being confrontational and insisting that he is wrong and doesn’t know his profession, approach it as a friendly dialogue where you are willing to learn. Have you read all the information on the C4 test that was conducted on the Voynich? As a layperson what are you sources to support your assertion?
Mark Knowles: don’t try to teach me how to suck eggs sport [remainder removed by moderator]
Darrell. You have to look carefully at the letters. Then it will be good. Show the beginning.
(C.d.o….č.č.í.z.l.o…8.i.t.o… h.o.n.t.o. č.č.i.z.l.a…2…z.p.i.s.a.r.a.j.e….8…i..b.o.l.o…f.í.. .14….c.č.í.z.l.a….r.o.ko…z.l.a.f.o…i…ž.e.s.t.o…Z.l.t.o….P.á.r….z.l.o.v.a…p .í.ž.e…Lí.z…E.l.í.z….E.l.í.ž.c.a…8…c.d.o.s….c.c.í.z.e.l…l.í.s.t.o. …etc.
So today everyone can read the correct meaning of the manuscript text.
I will translate into English.
Who is number 8. It is. I am. numbers 2. the scribe is. 8 i knows them. 14 number jr year. glory. even six. gold. two… Words…writes…Líz..Elíz…Elížka..8…is a …number..leaf.(leaf) etc.
Translating the manuscript into English will be a big challenge.
Darell work independently. I can’t write you everything here. I can only advise you. So try harder.
Josef Zlatoděj Prof.
Thank you very much. We’ll see how it goes
John Sanders: I am sorry if I seemed patronising, but I feel it is important if you are serious about your claim for you to check it out properly.
You assertion appears to be that the University of Arizona Accelerator Mass Spectrometry Lab don’t know what they are doing. They have been working to carbon date objects for over 40 years. Are you claiming that in that time they have failed to get any of their carbon datings rigbt? As a layman I would say you need a pretty strong argument and evidence to support your claim. I have not investigated this area, but it seems more likely that they know what they are talking about than that they have got it completely wrong. If you were arguing that they might have got the dating a decade or two out that’s one thing, but to suggest they might be 450 years out is something else.
John Sanders: Can you find any academics working in the field of carbon dating who will vouch for your claim about the University of Arizona getting their carbon dating wrong?
On the dating of C-3 and C-4. What is that?
Measurement of carbon deposition between small plants C-3 and large plants C-4. The difference is due to the length of the roots to absorb the carbon (nutrients) from the soil. If algae and lichens were not in contact with the soil.
Due to industrialisation, the carbon content has increased by 3 per mille since 1900. Since 1960 alone, 2 per mille.
This also increases the carbon content in the animal, as it is a food plant. Since this tolerance is constant before industrialisation and is already taken into account in the C-14 test, the tolerance of 1 per mille is negligible.
I have just read the 60-page dissertation.
https://d-nb.info/97010992x/34
On the radioactivity of the sample.
Since radioactive impurities are only superficial, but must be bound in the material, this radiation and the decay values are no longer present after cleaning the sample.
Friends scientists. Here you have to realize one very important thing and that is the error rate of the method. This means that the statistical dispersion of dating according to this method (C-14) is in the order of tens to fifty years.
Aga Tentakulus
Things have moved along quite dramatically since your dated 2003 dissertation, apropos revelations on some new findings ie., doubts on dead sea scrolls and the exposure of the other celebrated Beneike VM imposter even if carbon dating played only a small part in it’s downfall see Maps Myths & Men (Seaver) plus up dated McCrone ink tests done on our VM which went don’t support Hodges initial questionable pre accelerator Uni. Arizona laboritory evaluations and especially their own initial date supporting tests in Chicago. Suggest you dig further into how isotopic carbon transfers between C3 & C4 animal forage plants might drastically effect the ability to get reliable dating eg., those of so called deep water origins such as algea and welks that don’t rely on photosynthesis. Not forgeting mineral salts that form an essential dietry component of grazing animals. Crikies mate you and Nobby Knowles have got a measure of work ahead of you. If it helps, you both might look back into my past more extensive related contributions on the main VM thread at your leisure. In the meantime I can get on with other equally infuriating unresolved mysteries that put food on my table.
There are multiple dates in the manuscript. For example, Eliška writes when her father was born. 1431. He also writes when he died – 1472 Mor. He also writes about his mother, when Anna Hlohovská was born in 1432. And when she died in 1483.
There are multiple dates in the manuscript.
The C-3 and C-4 test only indicates the amount of carbon content. Additionally by uptake of CO2. This only says something about the climate of the time, but has nothing to do with the half-life of the decay of the radioactive isotopes. (Time) These indicate the time that has elapsed since the last supply of radioactive isotopes.
With a half-life of 100 years, 50,000 are only 25,000 after 100 years, 12,500 after 200 years, and so on. Nothing can be done about that. No matter how much is measured, it is always half. That is how the age is calculated.
The radioactive elements are absorbed by the soil. Depending on the region, a little more or less. But the decay remains the same over time.
But the older it is, the less accurate it is. But you only have to worry about 10,000 years.
The measurements are accurate, but the soil where the plant is grown is inaccurate. Normal value 1% of 1000.
Exact values of the decay.
14 C’s half-life than its mean-life. The currently accepted value for the half-life of 14
C is 5,700 ± 30 years.[21] This means that after 5,700 years, only half of the initial 14
C will remain; a quarter will remain after 11,400 years; an eighth after 17,100 years; and so on.
The half-life of carbon is of no use to us in this case. It is important to read the text. Then the scientist discovers to his amazement that the half-life in the case of researching the age of the manuscript is two things. For nothing and for nothing.
@Joseph
The carbon dating tells us from which time the parchment comes.
The half-life is the clock ticking. One minute takes 60 seconds. No matter from which direction you look at it.
The process has been done 1000x. Major errors would be immediately recognisable. The system has also been confirmed by materials where the age was known beforehand.
If there was a measurement error, it would be the same for all samples. That in itself is highly unlikely.
The parchment has the given age. These are the facts.
Whether it was inscribed later is another matter.
Peter. Facts??? the facts are what is written in the manuscript. And that’s different information and dates. When the author writes that he was born in 1466. That’s a fact. Which tells everyone the test is wrong. And that the test is wrong is a clear fact. What you write here about tests. Anyone can read it on the wiki.
It is important to translate the text. Find out who wrote the manuscript. And what is written in the manuscript. That is a fact.
Hey Joseph, yes you are right, just misspelled.
You write:
“Which tells everyone the test is wrong.” (test)
But it should read:
“Which tells everyone the text is wrong.” (text)
Mistranslations can happen.
Did you know that it was not the apple that fell on Newton, but Newton on the apple?
So he is the inventor of applesauce
@Peter. Of course I know Izak. When he was little, his mother told him to go get an apple, I’ll make you a strudel. And so an apple fell on his head. A light came on in his head and he saw. Many scientists who study handwriting should also go for apples to see. Do you have an apple tree at home? Isaac, as a Jew, would surely have understood the handwriting. He was one of the greatest alchemists. And so it was very lucky that his mother did not send him to get a brick.
Josef: Isaac Newton wasn’t Jewish.
Mark. Wasn’t he a Jew? Here one would have to search more in distant history. How did Isak Newton get from Judea to Britain? Apparently he got there earlier in the past. Isaac’s ancestor who served as a slave to the general of the Ninth Legion. Ninth Legion of the Eagle. She was good. But then she disappeared and today no one knows where she is. There is also a nice movie made about it.
Isaac’s ancestor was a Jew who remained in Britain when the legion was lost. The slave was then free and given several hectares of land where he grew wheat and chickens, goats and sheep for wool. Because he was Jewish, he knew how to do business well and, of course, save money. He wasn’t a miser like dad. And he’d get his knee drilled for a few quid. After some time, he also began to expand into the world and founded a bank in New York.
Josef: Well you certainly like to dream up stories about Jewish people. So I guess after all that Eliška was related to Isaac Newton. Maybe his family background in ciphers made him such a good mathematician.
@Mark
Didn’t you know that “Josephology” is a rare form of science? Originally it comes from Absurdistan.
The logic: the first Christian was a Jew. Are all Christians now Jews and vice versa?
Hello Peter. Write me. What kind of handwriting is this? How do you write on nynja. There is a picture of a “woman”. And the text is: Daszony Laub mich in SszFsy.
Thanks.
You mean the text from this picture?
That’s “baasler dytsch” Dialekt from Basel.
It starts with:
“Darum legt mich in Herzen diesen ein….”
“Therefore lay me in heart this one…..”
https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/phmb/V01895/106r
@Peter. Yeah that’s it. Thanks.
Peter. nice book. I looked at the beginning. It is written there about Rodolf II. That he died. He lived 60 years. etc.
And what is interesting. So it is written there that it was written by Jef (Jew).
I don’t understand much in this book.
There are so many different languages.
It seems to me that students have immortalised themselves here with different sayings in their language. And as you can see under the saying, who it is and where it comes from.
Hebrew and Greek are also included. And many more.
The book description says that the owner was still in training (pharmacist) at that time. Emanuel and Heinrich August Ryhner. Apothecaries of Basel.
@Peter. What is written in that manuscript. On page f 4r. A naked woman stands there. Thanks.
@Scientist Peter. Are you writing that you don’t understand it?? As you already wrote. That’s Upper German. And you read it right. So what’s the problem???? Isn’t it German???
So I’m not German, but I understand the book very well.
@Peter. write me what is written on page f4r. And I’ll show you what “Josephology” is.
Then you will know with your own eyes that you are writing nonsense. I’ll show you “Absurdistan. 🙂
So don’t be shy.
F4r Is written in French. It begins with :
il ny a fortune ni qui….: there is no fortune and no …….
And it ends with 1613.
I also had 3 years of French at school. It was a long time ago and it’s not exactly my strong point.
Where again did you read about Rudolf II? I can’t read anything there.
Peter. The picture shows the wife of Rudolph II. Habsburg. The name “Strada” is also written there. I will write what is written there. The text is read from left to right. Then it is written there that the text turns the sentence. This means that the text is also read from right to left.
Je taj. požt. uniu. ak . s castu .jawa. a sion. Poví 3 codu. Ak stol. Man šší. I jí věž. Strada. Vě Páv Dva. Slso. Věto. Točí. Lásky. synoc.
Co nás Blica. Co to Děvoc. Slov Můj fě. Ví Mák. Mlonu Jí. Jí 33. Nám . Som Cristo čas juž. Fě žíla i ví Jůd. Lásc Řín jinů Mož pij Dej.
Then I will translate it into English. Individual words.
Yippee. Secret. Post office union. Yippee. message here. Jew and Zion. He will say 3 and coda. How. Throne. Man lives. And I. Strada. He knows Peacock. Two. Tear sentences. It spins. Love. Son in law.
What. Me. Picture. What is a girl. Word. Me. He knows the Mage knows. My mill. Me 33. Me. I have Christ’s time already. You know, Joda lived and knows. Laska. Rut. Other. Man. (dick). He can.
Here it is written that Stradová (Anna Marie) Kateřina. She lived with (peacock) II. This is Rudolph II. Hapsburg. It says that cod = 3. (substitution 3). It is also written that the notation must be rotated. Read from right to left. This entry is also called a mill. The writing must be properly ground. That’s what the canvas in his hand is pointing to. On the arms of the mill is a canvas (sail). It is written further. That Strada was 33 years old. When Rudolph died. 1579 + 33 = 1612. He writes that he has the years of Christ. Then he writes there. That she is interested in love. Kateřina was in a brothel since she was little. Prostitute. Her father had a big brothel in Prague. A brothel. And there the jumper Rudolph found her. The word Rhine. It means she was constantly in heat. She would fuck all the time. That’s why it’s written there. That she will find another man for sex. Another man seals her hole.
Everything is in the picture and painted. She has a nice red pussy. etc.
This is the definitive proof.
You have had your brains removed by the aliens, and confirmation that Von Däniken is right.
PS. Stay away from drugs !
I can now understand the aliens not coming back.
They were obviously more than just disappointed by their investigations.
Peter. Proof??? The proof is that you know nothing at all. And with some Erich, you hold hands and jump into the wall. Moron.
Joseph, now the Habsburgs have provided you with development aid for 500 years, but only you are developing backwards.
Nick and all,
Has anyone heard from Rich SantaColoma lately? I’ve tried emails – which bounce – and a comment to his blog, trying to contact Barbara Curtis, but unlike Rich’s usually quick replies, there’s been no answer and the comments haven’t been moderated. No sign of him lately at Voynich ninja. Hope he’s just on hols but would be glad of reassurance.
Diane: not so long ago in a reply to me you claimed not to have had contact with Rich since about 2013. When I called you out in it, you suggested that someone had been using your ‘signature’ to post on his 1910 hoax comment site. So what gives, why so concerned now?
John – I’ve already tried to clarify for you that you seem to have confused Rich’s mailing list, his personal blog, and his own website.
Now back to the point – have you, perhaps, heard recently from Rich?
Today on BBC News, Wilfrid’s great nephew, ACM A.M. Alan Turing prize recipient and top ranked world A1 authority, Dr. Geoffrey Everest Hinton, shares his concerns on dangers of runaway technology apropos artificial neural networks. Strangely no mention of Nick Pelling’s own prizeworthy attempts at cracking the George Boole inspired, Voynich Manuscript’s in part, artificial language barriers.
Diane: not sure what you mean about Rich not moderating posts. Yours of 6th ultimo from your own revisionist blog seemed to pass muster though, unanswered possibly due to the content being of little interest with what’s trending namely non conformity with the Santacaloma 1910 fake Voynich manuscript concept. I have discerned some diminishment in Rich’s output since I gave up on the site a couple of years back, noting that since then only yourself and Prof. Joseph Zlatodej have contributed regularly. If you are desperate to contact him I do have his New York address and home number…I think.
John, the runaway technology: there is no earthly thing of great import that shall not also have its share in hell, but at first it will net and capture all the institutionalised ignorants
John,
Thanks for the offer but home addresses and phone numbers are information more private than I feel comfortable about receiving at second-hand. I’ll wait for news.
Diane: yeah I’m sorta like you, big on privacy, especially in the home if you get my drift . Had barny with ATO this morning, sticking it up em for wanting to know the ins and outs of a ducks arse (p m Turkic), including my old TFN which I told the mongrels was no longer their concern. Any way I hear Rich has been in contact with his people at NARA recently so he, like the few of us with good grasp on the many vagaries of human nature, is likely now sitting back, feeling comfortable and awaiting the breaking news from Benieke re its M408 imposter.
Hi,
I’m just wondering if you’ve heard of the Zodiac 38 & Zodiac 263 Ciphers, as I couldn’t find them on this site or Cipherbrain. Here’s the links:
The link below mentions Melvin Belli as well as Z340. https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/a-viable-solution-to-the-38-character-code
The cipher below was split in two (one with 169 characters, the other with 94 characters)
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-zodiac-263-character-ciphers
Nick Pelling: your instruction to some other drongo apropos archival thread back tracking ie., ‘ siteciphermysteries.com. ‘ followed by terms of reference gets a no can do from my site seeker. Where have I stuffed up svp?
Sorry it was. site:ciphermysteries.com..that doesn’t work.
John Sanders: try copying the following into the Google search bar exactly as is:
site:ciphermysteries.com “football crazy”
NP: works only “without quotes” and brings up the First Photo thread. Thanks.
Greetings,
With regards about the le butin ciphers do you defiantly think it’s in the cave because you have presented sufficient evidence for it to be although it does say climb the cliff and there will be a river making me think it would be near a waterfall as rivers don’t flow up a cliff
I don’t know if this is the place, but I want to share with someone two of my deciphered enigmas … “On the trail of the golden owl” and “The Golden Treasure of the Entente Cordiale”. iI’m looking for someone in England or the surrounding area to whom I can tell the solutions and they can take out the markers? In the area of Bristol.
Hassan Boyouk – all Zodiac ciphers are arabic languages, Google translator will break them for you.
Hi Nick,
I would like to touch base with you as I recently published a research paper entitled The Voynich Manuscript and Nostradamus Connection. I see there are many messages posted here though, I don’t want to take up too much space.
If interested, you can contact me by email (I included it in the required fields, but not sure if it’s visible to you), or the contact form through my website at http://www.boldfrontiers.com
Cheers,
Nicolas Raymond
Bonjour and Hello, I believe the cypher is formed from the Knights Templar codes.
I hope you find this correct. Yours Fraternally, Colin
Hi Nick – I wanted to tell you what happened with the Zodiac ciphers. !) Kevin Knight got into my twitter acct, ripped off identity in Z340 and said over and over I was a plagarist and threatnened me. He turned in the next day. Tell me, how could I plagarize the night of the last TV show – I dont know the guy, and I never ever would steal and lie about it. I believe he wrote a formal paper on plagarism. What a douche! Unsolicited, twitter mods told me to call the police. 2) David Oranchak was given the answers to the ciphers and he said, with hand over mouth on Expedition X”someone made a comment and they discovered how to solve the ciphers and Z340 was now solved in full”. so I have a name ! So they made pretty much said that it was them who solved the ciphers, but it was not. They also left 15 lines in the Z340, missed the first part of his name, and missed a word that would have said where he was and three other errors. Olsen approved anyway. However, he said the name of someone with dementia and makes up things. 3) Tom Voight broke into my email (there are his comments everywhere, said nasty things from my acct and sent to FBI and SFPD, got the solves, the date, and he backed to date 2019 and said he did them. Tom learned how to changed dates and timestamps. So he tried to made me look like an ass. That is the true ethics and morals of these so called experts. Thank you and I hope you are doing well. And I do realize not everyone is like them. Have I put this in the right place ?
Hi NIck, there is something all public should realize. I was banned permanently from Reddit becaue I had a stroke while typing and spelled words wrong and did not construct sentences right. They ask for your internal google id and they use as your user name. I hit the wrong button when I was there. and comments from my email popped up and it was only Zodiac comments. They must have some sort of routine to identify what they want. I also fjound Doc Deena hands everything she finds out to Tom Voight, but she will talk badly about him on line. This is Doc Deena. I talked with Edward Snowden about this, he said to never ever even get on reddit and he knew they were dishonest. Amazing information. You have to be careful who you trust. You can trust the worst possible people who are like criminals and not even know till they steal and lie about it. Thank you Nick.
Not sure how to get hold of you. If interested, I have the solution to the Dorabella Cipher. I have had it reviewed. I’m formally presenting it to the members of the WM Branch of Elgar Society on 12th October. I’ve been trying to discuss with cipher experts on the internet, but it is proving to be far harder to do that compared to breaking Elgar’s cipher technique. No worries if you don’t want to discuss either. I’m use to it. I’d be happy to send you a link to the publication after 12th October instead. Thanks and best wishes. Dan
Dan Bartlett: I’ve been thinking about coming along to your grand Dorabella unveiling on 12th October, but must confess I was slightly put off by the way the email address you left in your comments here bounced. I emailed to ask you which pirate treasure map mystery you think you resolved was.
I wanted to share information about Thomas Beale cipher letters. A possible code that may solve the Beale cipher letters. Can I get your email so l can send you the information needed for you to review the codes?