…brings you to your knees too? Or ultimately makes you stronger?
In my case, I think the answer is neither: though I’m in some ways delighted that Bangladesh has found a new export market (i.e. hacking WordPress blogs), I do rather wish it hadn’t been at my expense. Anyway, wishing ill on such people is a lot like a beach cursing the sea: and though Cipher Mysteries is now back, it seems sadly inevitable that they and their successors will be back too.
Apart from that, I’ve had a basically lovely summer, with a few book reviews and some new cipher mysteries to write up for here, and lots more plans for Curse 2. Watch this space! 🙂
Nick
Did you intend that every link in this post should go to an offer of an iPhone if people ‘answer this question’? Doesn’t sound like you, somehow.
..and now I see that my reference to said object has also developed a link-mark, which I did not include.
Good to see you back up Nick and I like the new look too.
Hi Nick,
Those hackers just waste their time. I’m mean really what do they get out of it. I hope they turn their efforts into something positive.
Anyway Nick can you email me. I would like to join you on your next book, Curse 2. Maybe you can add a section with my cipher theory. I know that after four attempts I’m on to something. I know your book sales will go up and of course I would like some royalties.
Or maybe you could give me you publisher contact so they could help me publish my own book, please. I’m broke, very broke and all my effort to decode the Voynich Manuscript has done that!
Anyway I’m glad your back up an running! Have a great voynich day 🙂
Diane: I saw this happen on a co-worker’s machine last week, it was from a toolbar / add-on that had become activated on his PC. I’m pretty sure that the site isn’t doing that by itself.
Hi Nick
I think you’re right. I was on a different computer from the one I normally use. No links appearing when I use this one. Sorry about the false alarm.
Hola Nick!
Estuve triste por no poder ver tu web.
Animo con tu trabajo!
Welcome back! I missed the CM . I also reminded my IT specialist (my hubby) to upgrade the security on my web-sites. I hope the hackers leave you alone and never stop my way!
Glad to see you back, Nick. And I look forward to your new work, when you get to it. All the best…
.. and i’m very glad ciphermysteries is back, too.
Thank goodness you’ve returned from “limbo”! I shall try to be as discreet (under the radar) as possible (for a nearly 69-year old woman can be). I’ve missed you terribly!
Will you be posting any new discoveries you made while “on vacation”?
Mr. Neal,
I’m pleased to see your note and referral to your pages. Over the past several months I have made references to your huge “Kircher” archive. I have bookmarked your site. I still have a lot of mining to do. Fascinating!
Nick, are you yet ready/interested in my translation of folio 86r?
Raring to go!
Nick, As if the Bangladeshis didn’t have enough in their own reality to deal with, they mess around with ours.
It seems to me in reading around on the various hypotheses on the VM’s creation, the why, the how and the who, that reasearchers can be divided into two camps: The “Eureka, I have found it” group and a smaller number who take their cue from the fictional Japanese movie sleuth, Mr. Moto. “softly, softly, catchee monkey”. I am in the latter and am now working on what might be traces of original ink in the herbs. It is this indeed original ink, it could provide another dating clue. I now think it was put down at the same times the herbs were drawn. A non-destructive reflectance spectroscopy method perhaps might be used, instead of focusing on the vellum date. Compare the ink composition to inks that were being used in the medieval period. Just a careful analysis of the iron gall ink used in the text and in all the many line drawings (herbs, nymphs, structures) could provide clues such as whether gum arabic was used. I also think that the herb delineator was following an underdrawing as here and there in the herbals are missing lines.
The key question arises: why codify the herbs in the first place? One answer might assume the obvious, that not to do so would be dangerous. The VM might have included herbal medicine of the Arabs (like Ali Sina) and for non Arabs, like my postulated Armenian, possessing this information could be curtain time. Still to be useful at all for herbal medicine, which I am certain was the purpose, one would have to have an accurate description of the real thing and its name. I think the VM herbal text is usually in two paras, one that describes the herb, the second that describes the uses. Occasionally there is only one para or none at all, and I assume these herbs are more common, maybe those representations are truer to life? I have nearly completed what I think was the medicinal use of each herb from embedded clues, many of which are pretty obvious like herb branches joining (bone mending), penetrating another part of the plant (penetrating wound) or fused leaves (wound mending). Yin and Yang symbology is used throughout (for female and male uses). Green leaves and plant stems are used but dried leaves (brown) can also be used. Berries that have all the pips facing the viewer are for eye disorders; blossoms where they face away, parts of the plant are used for cataracts where the eyes avoid bright light. In Armenian herbals, the vast majority of entries deal with eye problems and the medic Amasiasti was officially a gardener and “occulist” to Ahmed II. More anon. Cheers, Tom
Ububchasym Baldacchi (de Baldach)
aka: Abul (Abdul?) Hasan al Muchtar Ibn Botlan
aka: Ellucasim Elimittar.
Christian doctor of Baghdad
Aboca Museum (Italy)
Mr. Spande, would you have an explanation of uses for the water lily (nymphaea odorata) which writing identifies as nymphaeacea, but also as nelumbo (lotus)?
Yale’s library image number D0001/1006079.jpg
to bdid1dr,
I assume you refer to f2v. That was not easy in having clues only in the root rhizome where root pruning reveals little spots, litte faces. I think the leaves and rootlets are used for freckles.
My full account at the moment reads: “2v (water lily?)
Faintly tinted root pruned rhizome with many little faces, emphasizing eyes or spots on skin? One large pancake of a leaf with some crude retinting. Faint leaf veins. Untinted flower with 4 petals. Stem indicates one leaf harvested.
Leaf for freckles or skin eruptions.
Oddly one portion of the main leaf has been retinted, maybe to obscure original skin spots indicated there?” I think in looking at the herbs, one has to look for embedded clues and it may be that the rootlet spots are the clue but roots are not used and the cut stem indicates the lily leaf is used. It might have originally had clues embedded in the edge that were tinted over. Best to you. Cheers, Tom
Lily leaf re-tinted — maybe so the drawing on the back of the “Lily” page won’t show through? I’m still doing a very rough translation of the commentary above the leaf (appears to be discussing the flower which may have at least 6 petals). Discussion I’ve seen in other antique botanical books mentions that many of the animals and fowl that frequent the waters feed on the insects and larvae that settle/and live on the sediment. (Seeds apparently eaten by ducks.)
To clarify my reference to Baldash, and the Aboca Museum:
(and to NOT monopolize Nick’s new pages:
“Herbarium” ‘natural remedies from a medieval manuscript’
Texts by Adalberto Pazzini and Emma Pirani
Original captions by Ububchasym de Baldach
Rizzoli International Publications, Inc
The museum I referred has a much larger archive of Baldach’s works (and a full translation of Baldach’s commentary).
Senor/Signor Baldach was also helpful to me in translating
folio 15v which helped me partially translate 80v and 80r of same manuscript.
Folio 15v is about squashes/cucurbits — and a vegetable sponge known as a “lufa/loofa”. Besides its use as a scrubbing/sponge,Baldash expands the discussion to include female troubles.
Folio 80v and 80r portrays women in the bath. One figure that stands out portrays a woman in a soaking tub. She is waving a handful of objects that sent me on an immediate search for sponges. The other figure that is almost obscured in the upper right corner of the other side of Folio 80 is the figure of a male “attendant”. Draw your own conclusions. I have been able to add to my “latin dictionary”;
every little clue helps.
bdid1dr
three comments:
(i) the work you mention (Ibn Botlan) is well known and European copies are often referred to as the Tacuinum Sanitatis (Tables of Health), which is the Latin title of the abbreviated versions used in Europe. You will be happy to know it is a standard reference for many Voynicheros.
(ii) thanks for the reference to the loofah. I had identified the plant in the Vms ‘pharma’ section and commented on its use as a food, and its dried matter as a substance used in woodwork (in the east) as a kind of sandpaper. I had not thought to check the Tacuinum. I wonder now when the loofah first came to Europe.
(iii) I think perhaps we should talk among each other in the forum, and not clog Nick’s posts with things not directly relevant to the post itself. How about it?
I believe Nick is quite capable of speaking for himself when moderating the discussion on his renewed pages.
Am I the only person who has noticed the presence of a male attendant in the baths?
There is another forum here on Nick’s new pages?
Have I ever critiqued anyone else’s posts? If so, I apologize.
Bdid1r
re my last
(i) was factual information
(iii) was a thank-you
(iii) was a question.
umbrage is criticism, in a sense.
Nick
The forum has reached its limit of 15 visible topics.
Just saying
I thought the purpose of this blog is to decipher the writing that appears on every page. There may have been two or more writers, but the language being written is “Latinization” of whatever the “native” language may have been for each of the labelled contents of each and every page/folio. Yes, I am aware that Tacuinus’ works have been imitated and expanded upon over many centuries.
Since I am a relative newcomer to Nick’s pages, I have been exploring the many other topics he has introduced (Blitz cipher, for one). Rather than ponder/speculate upon each folio’s content, I try to find Latin phonetic spelling in the written material that accompanies each portrayed item.
The the mushroom page, is full of finely detailed illustrations, and just as detailed Latin writing of identification, edibility, and precautions to use when collecting and preparing the “shroom” for a meal. The “inkies”, in particular, can be deadly: US native nomenclature for one “Alcohol” Inky describes the mushroom that probably was served to many Popes who died suddenly. I recall that more than a few powerful Europeans were mushroom “suicides”.
Baldach identifies/labels only one mushroom: the truffle.
I’m glad to see Ciphermysteries up and running again, Nick. I was astonished and infuriated when I read the hacker’s message, bullying and bragging about he being so clever.
I stick to the saying “What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger”.
Mr. Spande,
Would you perhaps know of a lab which would be able to gain access to the Beinecke holdings for a spectroscopy sampling? Oak gall vs iron gall? Gum arabic: Were there other sources of binding ingredients? Do I remember correctly that dating analysis was done (not too long ago) on the coloring ingredients (blue, in particular). Was dating the goal or was it to determine the raw materials used to create the various pigments?
My apologies if I am bringing up the “same ol-same ol” stuff.
to bdid1dr et al., I think there is only a good reason to try and date the original inks which remain in traces in nearly every herbal illustration. We know that retinting was done over and over and probably as late as the 18thC when crayons first came into existence. In looking for original inks, I think the time line was they were used contemporaneously with the herb drawing. In some instances one can see some reoutlining of the herb OVER the inking. A very limited palet is used. Seems only to be one shade of green, one of blue but several browns and maybe a tan and a yellow. Some later tinting is done to cover hidden writing such as the horrible yellowish green band on the blossom base in f40r.
What can we infer from traces of the original inks that remain? The VM was allowed to gather dust for a long time (in a monastic library for instance?) while the inks gradually faded, some into oblivion. They likely were not applied heavily to start with. Some blue might be gone for good. At any rate, it implies the herbal is not being pressed into medical service (and may never have been) but is being neglected. It also implies that perhaps enough original ink remains when the first retinting is done so the retinter knows what colors to use and where to apply them. Or if some ink is gone for good, then the retinter can read the VM text? I think the original colors were inks and the first retinting was done usiing water color. Then maybe some goache and crayonning done even later. There appears to be a spot of gesso on f52r with a Greek lower case delta? Another question arises: why cover with dense water color or crayon, what might be hidden writing? I think some might be arabic and maybe this was dangerous? Some might have given away the source (like Armenian???). Some early retinting (like f1v) is beautifully done but some so careless that the drawings are marred by them. Early inks did use organic binders and these might be detected with reflectance infrared spectroscopy. The metal ion composition of inks would be better approached with neutron activation analysis. Both would be non destructive. The Metropolitan museum of art in NYC probably could do this and NYU has an art conservation program in coordination with the Met.
I think the herbal needs Nick’s background subtration software to get at hidden writing which is frequent in this section. A lot seem, at first squint, to be arabic numerals. Some are just Latin letters, probably indicating the initials of the tinter, like “CH” on f1v. More on this anon. But to reiterate: it is only an original ink that would be worth dating. Cheers, Tom
Dear sponge researchers, I think you have it but on f80r second mymph from left holds, what I think is a pomegranate, much used for bathing in Armenia. On f80v, the top nymph holds an apothecary’s jar meant to carry oils (narrow top in hand) and right below her is the depiction of a long eared hedgehog, rare but found in Armenia. Cheers, Tom
The “mushroom page” to which I’ve referred is folio 86r of the Vms.
My immediate impression of the folio was that it was one page of lecture notes that could be rotated so that the lecturer could more easily keep track of “just where he is” at any section of his dialogue. The illustrations are meticulous.
Eloy: actually, I say that Nietzsche got it wrong – that which doesn’t kill you will try harder next time. But he did have a rockin’ moustache!
Well dang it all ! Earlier today I went back to Boenicke’s file to attempt to get larger photos of today’s subjects’ discussion. Manuscript 408 apparently is no longer accessible except through an appointment with a curator/librarian consultation.
Nick, when you have a moment to spare, take a look at one of your other topic pages where I suggest another mystery that one or two of your regular correspondents might enjoy investigating. You do have an “incoming” signal for your various blogs?
There is an expression that I think could apply to you:
“When the going gets tough, the tough get going!”
As us “old hippies” also say: “Hang in there, man!”
Admiringly, bdid1dr — with a squint: %^
the version I like – almost tempted to have it as T-shirt is
“What doesn’t kill you makes you stranger”
Nick, You might have spotted some of these and commented earlier. I have spotted what might be hidden glyphs in many of the herbal drawings.
Some are: f1v, lower green leaf on left; f2r, lower right leaf, center “finger”; f3r, lower green leaf on right; f13r, lower left leaf; f21r hidden arabic numbers amid berries; f23v, leaf cluster, left brown leaf; f25v, at 8 o’clock; f27r in leaf on right in main herb; f28v, center top leaf; f29r at rt edge of top leaf, also pod(?); f47r, lower left leaves; f53r, on one or more of the root protrusions; f53v, lower rt leaf; f65r, upper rt leaf; f93r, at rt of seed pod; f93v, on tubers.
Maybe your background color subtration software can reveal more about these? Some appear on squinting to be Latin letters; some maybe arabic? The why is puzzling. why cover these with coloration? Maybe they stood out clearly when just the original ink was used and were later roughly colored to conceal them? Another weirdness of the VM that others have likely commented on is the occasional appearance of the ampersand (&), which oddly enough is the mirror image of the Armenian “f” glyph, that is also common. The present form of the “et al” calligraphic form was renaissance but earlier forms go back to Cicero.
I think I might rightly be charged with hogging space on this site, not being mindful of the cryptography mission and will restrict myself in the future. Cheers, Tom
If it looks like an ampersand, rather than a figure 8, you probably ARE onto something. I’m wondering now if there may be a cipher for “et sequens”….? Really folks, I am somewhat Latin-impaired because of my hearing-impairment. I depend on my eyes to “see” what is being spoken and any body language that might enhance the dialogue.
Diane, could you help me with the latin for “let the evidence speak for itself”. Another term I’ve just now remember is “duces tecum” for “bring it with you”.
The reason for my bringing up some of the terminology is that the Vms seems to be dealing with several areas of controversy as well as everyday life-styles: a male “attendant” in the upper right corner of folio 80r. (?)
Nick, if you have the means to contact Rene Zandbergen, would you be able to alert him to my identification of the mushrooms which appear in folio 86v3? Surely, he would appreciate updates?
Besides identifying the mushroom (latin: Coprinus comatus, Coprinacae, Agaricales) I have begun a partial translation. I’m not able to read some of the other text, but I’ll bet there is some discussion about a “look-alike” mushroom that can kill if eaten within three days of alcohol consumption.
I’m pretty sure Rene would “fly around ” the bordering text in no time at all! Since I have not been able to enlarge the photos enough for me to read the “fine print”, I’m hoping to turn this topic over to him, so he can update his pages.
To bdid1dr, Examine the right side of the text on 87v. I think you will see the Armenian “f” glyph that resembles the “8” but has a “rocker” at the bottom and is not closed at the base and the ampersand (&). I too am wondering if the scribes used it for “and” as it occasionally appears alone and is usually at the end of a “word”, sometimes followed by a “9”, that might be a null character? Both scribes use it. What complicates a clear assignment of the ampersand is its resemblance to the “8” and also often having a scribal flourish, that is sometimes apparent also with the “f”. Ampersand stood for “and per se and” and oddly enough was in the American alphabet following “z”, during the 19thC, I find that very odd. It is often preceeded by an “a” as is the “f” glyph. Cheers, Tom
Dear folks, If indeed there are ampersands embedded in the VM text, they might be used for “and”. I have found a few instances where & is isolated (23r, 23v and 26v) but usually, not always, it occurs at the end of a word. Where it occurs at the very last character in a para is troubling. Could this be an implied use of &c, i.e. et cetera? What makes ampersand hunting tricky is scribal variations; sometimes hard to distinguish the & from a squashed “8”. Still if we nearly always find the & at the end of a word or maybe followed by a “9” (“9” could be a null?), it implies that the code is fixed and not changing as the VM scribes lay down their glyphs. Cheers, Tom
ps. “8a(Armenian “f”) is also very common. If the ampersand is doing service as “and” this must be another common 3 letter word, like “but”.
A couple of days ago I tried to access the Boenicke manuscript. Boenicke now requires a consultation with a curator before accessing Ms 408. So, I no longer have a means of enlarging the print of any particular item of interest. Nick, do you have a “stash” of Vms pages that we could download/print a copy of whatever folio is up for discussion?
I’ve been plodding away with a magnifying glass and a pencil. I write the script in large letters with pencil. I then ink over the letters, pull out my reference books (no Latin dictionary, alas) and proceed to “fill in the blanks”.
What I have seen is very little use of vowels, long strings of consonants, and no signs of sentence endings. My various Audubon field guides have been very helpful.
Nick, I truly do not want to downgrade the efforts of you and some of your long-term friends: I feel so angry and disappointed with Mary D’Imperio’s publication. I honor Mr. Currier and his efforts.
Because Mr. Zandbergen appears to be under siege, I regret not being able to give him feedback directly. Could you somehow, tell Rene about the content matter of folio 86v3 which is discussing the “choice”mushroom Coprinus comatus, and perhaps the sometimes poisonous Coprinus atramentarius. Coprinus atramentarius may have been the mushroom by which many Roman and Papal “suicides” were accomplished.
Mr. Neal,
Not too long ago, I translated a letter that had been sent to Athanasius Kircher. The subject matter was a prescription for preparing a solution of colloidal silver. What first caught my eye was the large ‘Rx’. Also appearing throughout the missive were very shaky, scratchy hand-printed letters that appeared on the back of the letter. They spelled out “A L C H I M E……
I’ve visited your archive a few more times — just to catch up with Tycho Brahe, for one.
Use of ampersand: maybe “thus” ? I know, this is a four-letters. Perhaps more relevant would be a sequence of “and but for the lack of a horseshoe nail the battle was lost.
hmm?
Thomas
Some while ago, when I thought the script very like a kind of Greek-family one, i wondered if the ‘ampersand’ weren’t a way of indicating the grammatical ending (tense, gender etc.) without bothering to write it, so the end of the word for the [etcetera] was right.
Just a passing thought.
Diane, Your point is certainly worth considering. The “&” is usually at the end of a word as you indicate and may well mark the end of a sentence. I think the Armenian “period” which is a colon, would mark the text as obviously Armenian so it was avoided. I think the VM might have been written in an area of the Ottoman empire where the writer was surrounded by unfriendly Arabs. Ahmed II was accepting of Armenians but his successor were not and Amasiasti was forced into 10 yrs of exile in the Black Sea area.
There are however, as I mentioned yesterday, some isolated occurrences of “&” but also some where “&” seems in the center of a “word”. I think you are correct in deducing that the VM is written in a code that uses glyphs that resemble some Greek letters. Armenian, which I still like, was heavily influenced by Greek (using glyphs resembling phi, delta, and some others). In the marginalia at the front of the VM there is the use of a double Armenian cursive character for “f” and I think it is used as a proofreaders mark for “ff”.i.e. “as follows” .The VM uses the Armenian character for f (looks like a mirror image of &) but I read it was added only after the 13thC. However another source indicates 11C. It seems always to be at the end of a “word”. Cheers, Tom
ps. The Armenians had no zero and used the “o” letter which was added at the same time as the “f”. Note that in the quire numbers where a zero would have been used, the VM has a tiny zero, which looks out of place as it is really the cursive “o”.
for bdid1dr,
try: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_ciencia_manuscrito07e.htm. You can use [CTRL + ] to enlarge or [CTRL -] to reduce. Unless there was really some upscale photo repro that you had access to? This serves me adequately. Cheers, Tom
Mr. Spande & Diane,
What keeps “cropping up” in my mushroom ID/translation is the use of the “&” figure (which looks more like a figure-8) to form the latinized ending syllables of “cae” , as in coprinaceae. Once in a while I encounter the figure-8 as the last character in a word that still indicates the sound ae-es. Am I making any sense?
By the way, those elaborate “curliqued” capital “P”s appear to me as diphthongs/phonemes, whatever, that make the sounds “ph”, pl…or “pr”. Am I wandering far afield?
G’night y’all!
In particular, I am comparing two mushrooms which I’ve already mentioned in other posts.
Thanx for the ref to biblioteca pleides. I’ve visited the site several times over the last few years. The manuscript pages must be a fairly new presentation?
Did you notice the use of the PL in combo with “ei” or “ey” and the ending “es”? How’s that for latinized puzzle solving?
Am I appearing to be more and more obssessive?
You don’t have to answer that last Q!
bdid!dr
Pl ei edes, correct spelling of the word, dang it!
I finished my transcription/translation of the Nymphaeacae page. First two words:
tlaom=oatlaom=waterliliam
eceospeceos=species
Two words in the next-to-last sentence:
ecolileak=aqualily
akwollceaceac=aqua lily specie
bdid1dr (who is even more beady-eyed with every passing day)
🙂
Nick,
A few moments ago, I left a comment for you in “Kingsley”.
The artist/writer of the water lily page was very careful not to mention “nelumbo” (lotus). Over the centuries, there has developed much confusion in terminology between the blue lotus of the Nile and the water lily. Current-day uses of both plants seems to be booming. 🙂
Dear all,
I am certain that there are THREE “crazy eights” in the VM and used by both scribes. One is the straight forward “8” a glyph that never has a scribal flourish. It is written stright up or leaning to the right. The pen stroke starts at 12 o’clock and finishes there without removing the pen from the paper. In some instances it is incomplete allowing one to see the pen work. (2) This is an ampersand like glyph but has a thinkened base, sort of slanting up to the left and often thickened, then cutting back like the start of a “2” and ending with a loop back to the start of the glyph. So I think it starts with the pen on an upward left stroke. It is always at the end of a word and often has a flourish but not invariably. I happen to think this is a cursive form of the Armenian letter “f”. Both scribes use it. (3) the third crazy eight is the & and is either isolated (e.g. 53v), at the start of a “word” or the end of a “word” and sometimes at the end but followed by the “9” character. It may or may not have a flourish. I think it can be used as “and” but may as Diane and bdid1r speculate, have other uses. Also the differences among the “crazy eights” is more evident with the scribe with the larger more casual glyphs and not the crabbed tight cursive of the other scribe. Cheers,Tom
Dear all, Reading around on the ampersand’s history, it appears that the “et” (Latin for “and”) that it stood for was used by scribes to replace “et” at the start and end of a word, not to replace the Roman “and” but the Latin “et”. It was evidently out of favor for cursive in Germany until printing came in. If the VM scribes are using it in this manner as the many cases where & is at the start, end or even middle of a word might indicate, maybe this is a clue that it replaces the letters “et” in these cases or another language’s equivalent? With this punctillio, I think I have exhausted the membership’s desire to learn more or care much more about the the ampersand! Cheers, Tom
Hi, Dear all, Nick.
http://zlatodej.blog.cz/1209/rozety-voynich-manuscript-rukopis-voynich
Well Nick,
Besides my p’s and q’s, I shall also mind my a’s to z’s when posting.
‘Tis interesting that when I cruised my local library’s botanical shelves I found only one book that discussed nelumbo.
The book is a TIME/LIFE production written by Frits W. Went, published in 1963, “The Plants”. The significance of this particular writing was that the lotus, which was photographed in full color (pink) had been grown from a seed that had been dormant for 2,000 years in a Japanese peat bog.
Hi Nick. Here is another part of rosettes. 86v.
http://zlatodej.blog.cz/rozeta-klic-voynich-manuscript-voynichuv-rukopis
Sorry correction :
http://zlatodej.blog.cz/1209/rozeta-klic-voynich-manuscript-voynichuv-rukopis
Dear all, As a demo of what sort of interpretation I am making on VM herbal uses, I offer the following: Maybe it indicates I have indeed gone over the edge but here goes: The plant on 6r indicates a female use, for which entwined roots are often a clue. Shown are the depiction of little wombs with a red outline indicating the bloody discharge that precedes birth. The little suns represent a baby is on the way. The leaves have 16 lobes perhaps alluding to the number of fertile days in a woman’s cycle? The lobes are yin shaped indicating a use for females. Perhaps the leaves are used for stimulating contractions? To be frank, a lot of the herbal is like this and I think gets heavily into male/female uses and complaints which was typical of Armenian medicine as indicated by a brief reading of excepts of Amasiasti. I think a lot of weirdnesses in the leaves represent what was known from anatomical studies (not forbidden to Armenians) of organs such as bladder, kidneys, and lungs. I think the whole of the herbal gets into pretty serious medical use, not cuisine or repelling fleas etc typical of western approaches. Cheers, Tom
Nick,
I’m sorry if I’ve drawn the attention of a couple of fanatics. I shall now bow out. Prof.Z and T. O’D: Shame on you both for interfering with the intellectual activities of an elderly but scholarly woman!
Dear all, I hope no one would take umbrage, or decamp over any real or imagined slights. I hope bdid1dr was not in earnest and really would not let “fanatical” remarks disturb her! The effort to crack the VM code and various oddnesses requires every worker in the vineyard, even if some seem more interested in quaffing rather than digging and pruning.
As an aside, I have a major problem with one clue depicted in the herbal and that is the occasional use of what appear to be swollen lymph nodes (shown in the roots) that I think might represent “the king’s evil”, a dreadful systemic TB that was thought to be curable only by the laying on of kingly hands. Problem is that the expression and cure wasn’t commonly known until the 16th C. I think even that king’s crown on 102r might refer to it? Cheers, Tom
Dear all, The hard working Stella Verdanyan has written a brief but detailed history of Armenian medicine, which was based heavily on phytotherapy. She features Amasiasti prominently. I include the link: http://www.matenadaran.am/en/heritage/medicine/
On page 16 (Figure 2) of that 28 page review, a page of an herbal written in cursive Armenian is reproduced. While undated, it has some relevance to the VM. Stylized ampersands abound, often at the start of sentence, occasionally at the end. No punctuation is evident. There are a few occurrences I think, of that curious glyph that I have been calling the Armenian “f” which is not as useful as I first thought in dating things, only indicating the herbal page this photo repro shows comes after 11C. The litte “4s” are closed up which might help date this thing. Sometimes they were open in earlier Armenian. There are apparently a few diascritical marks.and some lines which were unfortunately a feature of Armenian shorthand (uggh!!). The page numbering is in “arabic” with some marginalia from yet another planet! Cheers, Tom
Sorry, all, for losing my cool. I’m very quickly going to give you, here, my rough translation of each word that appears on the water lily page of the vms. (Mr. Spande, a brief comment about a single letter standing above the first line of script that appears on the stem of the lily: take a look and see if you have an idea of what it meant.)
So, without tediously detailing my three-step translation process, I am going to do a straight-run through beginning with the first sentence:
oatlaom eceosPceos ollamosan ceos san cielo
waterliliy species oliliamosancaecae san blue
oatlceaco tlcea okwaceo ecox akwollceo xocecS kwollg(y) ceos sam
water liliacae okwaceo ecox aqua lily especies aqualiliaceom
liliacek ceos xceacea ceox cdosg ecosam cecelloceus
liliaceaceaceos ceruleusam
That is enough for tonight. Perhaps it will be enough for you to pick up where I’ve left off. Tomorrow, I’ll discuss two or three of the long-ligatured words that straddle the tall “LL” or “TL” characters: ceruleus, being one word that comes to mind.
It’s quite late, gotta get some sleep. More in the morning, if there isn’t any “interference”.
G’night all!
bdid1dr
To bdid1dr, Glad you have resumed your labors.
Is the Prof writing in Czech? Appears so but I have a Slovak friend who can read it and will see what he concludes. The VM did reside in Bohemia with crazy Rudolph for a bit and maybe the rosette he seems to refer to has something to do with some structure in the Czech republic? Or is this just a red herring?
With regards to that curious little glyph you refer to. I could make no inferences from it at all. It does look like a Latin “fc” which might be an abbreviation for “facit”, (=made) but I do not understand the reinking of the riser part of the “f”, if indeed it is that? And normally if would be followed by a name or at least initials of the maker. I remain baffled.
BTW I think concentrating on the gallows figures as you seem to have done, is going to be important in cracking the code. My guess is that they are not conventional ligatures as they occur too many times and too deep within “words”. I wonder if they are not part of a substitution cipher which was popular with the Armenians. They would replace one letter with two and the normal ligature would natually imply two letters are being indicated. I have a pdf of an early Armenian petroglyph where this technique is used. My candidates for double letters that replaces a single one also includes “cc”. A problem remains though with the gallows glyphs and that is when the parts are widely separated by some calligraphy. What is the pisition of the coded letter, at the start or at the end?
I have ordered the only book on Armenian cryptography I could find (by Abrahamyan, 2006) even though I cannot understand the language at all. I am hoping when that book arrives from e-bay that I can at least spot (maybe) those gallows figures being used somehow. I think they give the VM the appearance of something written in Arabic which has a lot of verticality in its cursive.
Sorry I cannot be more help on that curious addition to the lily on 2v. Maybe for the deepest water, we need Nick?
Best to all, Tom
OK, I’ll try to give Prof Z and T’On the benefit of my doubts re their motives for posting multiple hyperlinks rather than brief discussions on these pages.
Several months ago, on several different pages of Vms discussion, I mentioned that some historian had written that Rudolph (as a young child) spent his summers at his grandparents (Hapsburgs) various holdings. I’ve also mentioned that he inherited some of his father’s physicians. I vaguely recall “Dodoens” as being one of those doctors. (?)
The history kinda “fell apart” when Rudolph’s brother had him incarcerated. Of course I can understand Prof Z’s insistence (Bohemia/Czech) but I also can’t understand why he posts hyperlinks to his pages rather than contributing to the discussion on these pages.
Breakfast! More later (re the curlicued “P”s and various other “shorthand” notations).
In my recent water lily post, I mentioned the curliqued “P” characters:
The P that has two loops and then a “tail” that backs around and behind the “stem”, and again briefly changes direction toward the stem: represents “SP” — at least in my reading/translation.
So, that second word in the first line is spelled out eceoSPecos. Say the word real fast ten times, just for fun(sibilant on all those “c”s)
Here and there on various pages of script, you’ll notice a small semi-circle above a set of letters. Here, in the US that symbol appeared quite often in various ancestor’s correspondence. One name that appears in our family’s correspondence, for example: “Fred (semi-circle)”
Poor Fred. Ever after, down four generations of the family was passed the assumption that “Fred” was his full first name.
So, it was only recently that I was able to set the record straight when archiving my husband’s huge genealogical records and correspondence (which “goes back” to the first Dutch settlers in New York and New Jersey.
Several months ago I referred to Kastle Hradczany AND Kastle Karlstejn: Much of Rudolph’s inherited possessions ended up in Kastle Karlstejn. Perhaps Karlstejn’s curators might give access to genuine historical researchers?
I still disbelieve that either Bacon or Dee had anything at all to do with the manuscript. Probably, if some historian could do a more thorough research of the Beinecke holdings, they would probably find considerably more materials/manuscripts/works of art that were stolen from Hradczany and Karlstejn during the Thirty Years and Hundred Years wars. Our monk/historian Kircher did the best he could to explain how so many artifacts ended up being his responsibility.
Hi, dear. The top image here on the blog Nick.
Meaning : the castle, the name Rosenberg ! Assets noble Rosenbergs. On the walls is charakter letter ,,V,,.
Character ( V) importance = Wok. ( Vok ).
Founder of the Rosenbergs was named Woko Rosenbergs.
Czech language Woko.( Woko = Oko ).
Professor,
About 400 years ago Father Athanasius Kircher identified the castle that is shown at the top of this blog as being:
“Valscorum regni pars — Vellitrae”
Even today, Vellitrae (Vellitri) is a living community, with a museum, in Italy.
Kastle Karlstejn, in Czechoslovakia, was where much of the treasures of Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph II (the Second) were stored shortly before the outbreak of the “Thirty-Years” war. Eventually, most of the “treasure” was sent to Rome into the care of Father Kircher.
Karlstejn has a nice photo tour of the castle and its hilltop grounds. It is a beautiful castle.
Several universities in the United States have the complete collection of books that Father Kircher published. In those books are many engraved pictures of inventions that originally belonged to Rudolph II and Rudolph’s parents and grandparents.
Stanford University (California) and Oklahoma University both have extensive archives of Kircher’s works on-line. Fascinating! Because I can see that you are very serious-minded, I won’t tell my favorite joke because you might mis-understand.
Oh, another thing you mention:
The “V” formation you see across the castle wall: They are merlons (battlements). This style of battlements or merlons were called “swallow-tail” merlons because they looked like the tail-end of the bird called “swallow”.
I am not an expert on battlements, so please forgive me if I’ve confused y’all and the Prof.
Please explain:
“which writing identifies as nymphaeacea, but also as nelumbo (lotus)?”
– where is this ‘writing’ – on fol.86v, or in a beinecke commentary, or somewhere else?
re 2v (if this is meant)
my 2cents worth is at:
http://voynichimagery.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/perspective/
Nick, Mr. Spande (and any others who might still be following these posts):
My husband just brought home TWO latin/english dictionaries! I shall now fly away for awhile, “swallow-tail” and all.
Water lilies vs lotus: A lot of confusion there, even with the confusion of Egyptian blue lily/white lily/blue lotus/pink lotus…American water lily misnomered and American lotus species which are really an entirely different plant similar to Scotch broom!
Dear all, If anyone checked out that link to Armenian medicine that I posted on 9-13 and has an interest in more info on it, I have done a bit more to date those three plates from the Armenian herbal that appear. The tinting is exquisitely done and it is done with quite a different format than the herbal section of the VM. Not surprising as S, A. Verdanyan indicates this herbal (Mashtots Maternadaran MS 6594) was a product of the late 17thC. The work from which the three illustrations were taken (“Illustrated Pharmaceutical Dictionary” ) included 315 colored pictures of herbs used in medicine, Verdanyan states that the dictionary is based on work of Amasiasti (Useless for Ignorants) even though that would have been from 200 yrs earlier. The text and pics were done by an unknown scribe or scribes. Even though the ampersand is common here, the late date sheds little light on exactly when it first came into use by Armenian scribes so that timing remains an unanswered question. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
Diane,
See my first comment of September 14 on this comment page re my three-step transcription/translation of the “water lily” folio portrayed in the Boenicke library’s archive as:
D0001/1006079
Since I made that very brief introductory “translation”, I have completed the full discussion that surrounds the lily leaf. I try to keep my references to the manuscript as “Boenicke” in an attempt to not attract the attention of spammers/hackers/et al.
Since I made that earlier commentary, my husband gave me two latin dictionaries — neither of which go into any detail when discussing anything botanical! Also, I found practically nothing on merlons (swallowtail or other designs).
So, if I can’t back up my contributions with dictionary citations, I guess I’ll just continue down MY “decipherment” of each of the ciphers.
I’ve finished the entire translation of the “oa tl aom” page. I have since returned to the mushroom page, which discussion notes are written on all four edges, between the illustrations in each corner (Boenicke D0024/1006230).
In other posts, very recently, I asked Nick if he could give Rene Zandberg the “heads-up” re his identification of that “mushroom/fungi” folio.
Of course, if Nick doesn’t consider my contributions to be valid, all bets are off. I thank Nick for his very gracious “hosting” — and I hope Rene will understand the great respect I also have for him.
And yes, Diane, I also have expressed my admiration of your contributions to Nick’s pages.
Dear all, Another consideration for placing and dating the VM are the nymph’s hairstyles. I know I am not the first to propose researching these but here goes, at the risk of redundancy: 1) In the bathing section, which is the easiest for me to see with the output of my printer, I note braids mainly, sometimes apparently one left casually over a shoulder but usually apparently crossed at the front. Many of these and many in the zodiac section have been reinked. Wonder why? Maybe it is to emphasize the “latest” hair style. 2) Some simple caps are worn, sometimes colored blue or red, sometimes left uncolored. The caps are like tams. In the zodiac, some figures wear hats and hard to say for sure, but I think some may be males. On the braid theme; this is so common for women in the medieval period that it is not easy to place the braidwearers but I think France is very unlikely, England unlikely and Italy a possibility. Although Portrait of Battista Szorfa and Portrait of a Young Woman (Pollaiuolo) have bun like creations in the back (ramshorns),not seen in the VM. Could be Armenian? All are blond so far as I can determine. Some have plain shoulder length hair with no treatment at all; some sort of like a page boy cut. The zodiac nymphs likely represent an ideal, stylized “mother earth” and each one a day as the little suns on leashes indicate. But even there, some attention is given to hair styling. The bathing section likely has the best representatives of women known to the VM scribes. Probably of an elevated social status. I am likely the last to comment on these but this topic is new to me. Cheers, Tom
p.s. There was in the middle ages, particularly in Armenia, a little cap called a roundlet that was worn with a “capkerchief” and a few nymphs appear to be wearing some kind of head covering like that. These were known in Armenia. As a weird aside, the heavy duty hair styles (e.g. cornets) worn by some women in the middle ages is judged also to have been useful for head protection in the event of a blow to the noggin.
Dear all, In the bathing scenes, there are shown many examples of headware (or hats) such as shown by the foremost nymph in the center pool on f84r. I think it is a rondlet (sorry I misspelled it in yesterday’s post). See “History of Fashion Headware” by Hilda Amphlett, 2003, fig. 694. A google book but here and there you can get a peek such as the headware worn by women in Medieval Armenia. That same pool has a real oddity in that it has not been colored at all at two spots (under the arms of two of the nymphs). No ink was evidently used, at least on the righthand nymph; the left is more difficult to tell and appears maybe to have faint traces of tan? and the crayon applied but more carefully than in many cases. The rondlet appears also on the bottom right of f75r with maybe the cap kerchief. This headgear however is not unique to Armenia but appeared also in Germany and the Netherlands (Amphlett). Cheers, Tom
Ahah, Mr. Spande!
You might just be the person who can answer a perplexity of mine; to which neither Nick nor anyone on these pages have responded.
On the same pages we were discussing (your ref to pomegranates) there appears in the upper right corner of that page a MALE figure. He appears to be assisting the various nymphs in their last preparations for departing the baths. I can’t remember if the male figure (wearing only a wrap around his loins) appears on the verso or reverso.
I’m posting this Q now, and will follow with a reply regarding Amasiasti.
In a bit….
Ah! Amasiasti:
Beautiful name. Almost impossible for unaccredited “scholars” to approach in cyberspace. I ended up, basically, somewhere in the deepest part of the Sahara desert (but nowhere near Timbuctu either). A few months later (and just a few days/weeks ago) I did have better luck with my search for Ububchasym’s fabulous “botanical”. If you haven’t already visited the Aboca Museum, check it out!
A book in my kitchen (herbal) library led me to herbal Master Baldach. As Diane pointed out recently, Baldach is “old stuff”, long known by Nick and others already. Anyway Doctor Baldach was my reference for “deciphering” the squash/cucurbits page. So, you have just now read a travelogue of my search for the origins of that “sponge” that is being waved by one of ladies in the bath house.
Lufas and pomegranates, and their uses in bath houses. Do you think, maybe that male attendant was “beautician/hairdresser” for the ladies before they were to exit the bath house and don their garments…party party!?
Diane,
I went to your link. Yes, that is the Boenicke photo which I have finished translating. Because of the repetitive phrasing, the folio creator/artist was emphasizing that it was a water LILY (and by NOT specifically alluding to the “Lotus/Nelumbo” member of the same “Nymphae” botanical class) he was still trying differentiate the uses of each of those plants.
In today’s world, herbal practitioners are still trying to clarify the origins and uses of both the nymphaea “oa-tl-lium” and the nymphaea “ne-lumbo”. (I have found no discussion re “nelumbo” on that same Boenicke folio you display.)
I reiterate, Diane: I have much respect for you and your endeavors. Because of various hearing and vison difficulties, and because of various professors impressions of my so-called handicaps, I was never able to complete my pre-med studies.
When I was twelve years old, I took PSAT exams: my scores for the entire section that dealt with reading and writing put me at the college post-graduate level.
In today’s world, here in the US at least, our naturopath medics brew teas from various parts of both water lily and the water lotus. Check them out via the WWW!
Enjoy YOUR “cuppa”! My favorite is “Earl Grey”.
Dear all, I went to the authority on Armenian cursive, Michael E. Stone and just caught him as he was planning to leave Israel on a trip. Here is his response to my query on when the ampersand appeared in Armenian cursive and what was it used for. I paste his response here: “That sign is simply a way of writing the final ք k‘.
You can try the dating via the ALBUM OF ARMENIAN PALEOGRAPHY, ed. Stone, Lehmann and Kouymjian. It is connected with notrgir script, which we find from the late Middle Ages on.
MStone”
I have the book and will search it more thoroughly than before when I thought the & and the “f” were identical. The professor has an Armenian keyboard, which is no doubt handy.
for bdid1dr: The full name is Amirdovlat Amasiasti. The Amasiasti just refers to his origin in Amasia in north central Turkey. It is also where Julius Cesaer uttered his terse little victory message: “veni, vedi, vici.” after defeating some local persian prince who was making mischief for the Romans. I think the young lad you refer to is no bath attendant but paying court to the damsel who has let her hair down which was considered, in old Armenia at least, as a “come on”.
Back to AA. His biggest herbal was “Useless for Ignorants” but was not illustrated by him. It was a treatise on the medical use of herbs in 1482 in Armenia and parts of Syria and Iran. Stella Verdanyan has writtern a review and published in a really obscure press in NY state and the book commands a big price. I was lucky to be at the Nat. Insts. of Health in Bethesda, MD where is also located the National Library of Medicine that had a copy I could peruse for one month. It was loaded with useful stuff and gave me the clue as to why the herbal section of the VM is so very odd. The herbs are usually embedded with clues as to their use. You picked f2v (water lily) which is pretty straightforward but most are not. I think, for example, that the black plaintain, which is disguised to look like an elephant in the pharma section, was for elephantiasis which plagued the Armenians for some reason; maybe overindulgence in some of the Armenian cures based on minerals? All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
So, Mr. Spande,
Is Mr. Stone translating Amasiasti (and other writers) as saying:
“and so forth” or “so on”– all with one character?
Much of the latin I’ve been transcribing/translating seems to be using the “9” to indicate the ending of a series of repetitive “cae” nomenclature on the water lilies page.
Another item that might interest you: on page 85 of Time/Life book “The Plants”, Fritz W. Went presents a beautiful drawing of a water lily, its stems, and root system. That root system looks so much like the root system of the Vms water lily you described as appearing like little faces. Fun!
Dear all, Bathing observations. bdid1r and others will probably notice another male in the water (lower left f79r) who might be adding something to the water. I think blue waters are fresh water; green irepresents a mineral bath. Those odd structures at the top of 78r.79r, 79v and particularly f84r and f84v are I think stylized representations of rain-producing clouds. Sometimes nymphs seem in control as maybe rain goddesses? As for example lower left on f76v where one is floating about. And top and lower left of f77v. On f76v and f80v, I think nymphs are adding salts or oils from apothecary jars. Top nymph on f76v seems to be holding some herb (maybe lavendar?). Note that nearly all floating nymphs have their hair undone. Also note that one apparently is holding a hair clamp (middle left of f80r and that top nymph second from left is holding what I think is a pomegranate. I think the seven red cylinders on f78r are holding pomegranate juice, much prized in Armenia for bathing. A bucket of it appers in f84r. I think in the lowest pool on f78r is a nymph grabbing for a sponge from a convenient supply. Sponges I think are indicated in f77r, f77r and on the right of f80v, the existence of which bdid1dr has deduced from elsewhere in the VM. The plumbing has me totally baffled and I may never make much of a dent on this topic. Just to observe the dots are probably shower spray. Cheers, Tom
for bdid1dr et al, Michael E. Stone was probably the very first to note that many of the petroglyphs in the Sinai were not in Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic as most thought but were in Armenian. The Armenians were among the first pilgrims to the Holy Land, partly on their own, partly in one crusade or another and have a church of their own on the the Holy Mount in Jerusalem, their own cemetary and have left a large number of ms in a monastery of St, Catherine’s on Mt Sinai. Some written Armenian predate the 4th C when their blessed saint Mashtots is supposed to have created the language. Now many note his debt to Greek. Most of the ms on the Armenian monastery at St Catherine’s are on vellum which have fused to solid blocks of leather and only a few have been pried apart by conservationists. The Odessa ms that Diane has seen was thought to have been stolen from that monastery. Anyway Stone spends his translating time working on the so called “pseudoepigraphica” of Armenia, which are non canonical biblical works, like the book of Enoch and studies on Adam and Eve. His bibiography on just this general topic is impressively massive.
Stella Verdanyan, a Russian Armenian, has done most of the translating of Amasiasti and unfortunately (for me anyway) publishes mainly in Russian or Armenian but her less commonly used English is very good. She is an MD on a university faculty of medicine at Yerevan, Armenia with a specialty in herbal medicine.
Stone’s interest is mainly Armenian language studies and biblical subjects. He does refer to “bizarre” forms of Armenian and that is what I think the VM is (until proven otherwise, which is likely just around the corner). Cheers, Tom
ps. The ampersand which Stone indicates stands for “k” at the end of an Armenian word, may cause yet more problems as I find it here and there within a word, both in the Verdanyan review and the VM. It would actually be great if it just meant “and” or &c for etcetera. I don’t think we are that lucky.
Mr. Spande and friends, Yassou!
I’m taking off shortly for an afternoon/evening of Greek festival dancing, but just want to post an item I found in a history of vegetables and meal preparation:
Pomegranates: Besides referring to Persephone, he discusses traditional bridal behavior (stepping on pomegranate at the doorste of her new home) etc, he adds this very interesting item:
“The hard rind–yellow or red depending on the variety–contains a lot of tannin and is used for CURING LEATHER
and MAKING INDELIBLE INK.”
My ref: Joe Carcione’s book, “The Greengrocer ”
Publisher: Chronicle Books, San Francisco, 1972
I’m off for a day of Greek festival dancing in San Francisco. I’ll be back tomorrow.
Opa!
Tsifteteli (ladies boudoir dance).
Tsamiko: (Greek/Armenian/Turk) dance — done in lines or semi-circles, men with shoulder-holds, and the women with handholds in a separate line behind the male dancers.
Karsilimas: A couples dance: women with a hankie in one hand and the men with their hands at their backs.
Thank you: Epharisto/Evharisto — Greek
T’chukran — Arab/Muslim/Turk
I mention these translations, because there is a third presentation of the words for “thank you” that appear on an
ancient stone monument/tablet (Oscian) in today’s town/commune of Vellitrae, Italy.
I guess I’ll always be an “armchair traveler” except when going to Northern California dance festivals.
Later! (A tout a l’heure!)
Nick & Friends,
I’m risking ridicule by once more mentioning a book, NOT a novel, that covers Templar activities in Jerusalem and France. Their history basically went up in flames when Phillip “The Fair” confiscated their treasury and had their leaders burned at the stake.
Nick, as far as I know, Robert Lomas still lives and lectures (at Bradford University/website?) His book, written in collaboration with Christopher Knight, also has a great appendix that explains several aspects of how certain images can be imprinted on various “media”.
Dear All, Even though I own that massive tome of Stone, et al., on Armenian cursive, I found only one instance of ampersand being used and that was in the 1800s. But there are several ampersand like things that occur in the 1400s.
One thing that seems true of Armenian cursive is the huge liberties various scribes take with the language. I wondered about the “a” that appears here and there in the VM. It is not part of the original alphabet at all, but in 1430, two different scribes use it instead of “o”. Also “c” is not part of original Armenian either but it appears all over the place, sometimes with an accent mark, like a tiny “o” in the 1400s. BUT I fail to find either the “8” or the ampersand as written in the VM. My argument for an Armenian origin for the VM is still a work in progress, alas.
I think some arguments can be deduced from the zodiac. The Armenians had 12 months of 30 days each which is true of the VM. They did not accept the Gregorian calendar, like a lot of Protestants, regarding it as a RC trick and for church dating, still adhere to the Julian. The extra 4 or 5 days seem missing from the VM which is unfortunately missing key parts in the zodiac section. Note also that the symbol for November, normally a scorpion, is replaced by a four legged croc-like animal evidently intent on eating a child. Armenians had such a creature called the “Nhang” and very early Armenian zodiacs used wild animals and maybe something like the Nhang wallowed into the picture?
Anyway, one other bathing observation is that a faint blue wash appears in many bathing scenes like the two on f81r. I think fresh water is coming in at the top of both despite the downward angle of the water tributaries on the left. On f81v, the layout of the bathing tank shows the water course with fresh water at the top and the outflow on the bottom. A hint of blue is seen here and there, I think many of the bathing scenes show traces of the original green ink and blue also, where it is used exclusively, like the bottom of f84r and both pools of f84v.
Bdid1dr has added some useful background on dancing and the use of the pomegranate. One possible use of pomegranate juice might be indicated on left of f76v where a nymph is holding what appears to be a red colored apothecary’s jar, topside down, presumably for the benefit of bathers. Back to the search for ampersands!
Cheers, Tom
So, Thomas S., is it feasible that the “ampersand” characters MAY represent the sound represented by the Latin letters “ts” whether at the beginning of a word or at its end? (Or even in the middle of a word?)
Examples: It’s alright. tsamiko, human rights, at night’s end …
Or am I just “at wits end”?
Another thought on the use of pomegranate juice as indelible ink:
I ‘1dr’ if some of those moldering manuscripts could still be read if the ink genuinely is indelibly written with pomegranate juice. Perhaps the manuscripts themselves were tanned with pomegranate juice? (vellum, I believe, is untanned kid/lamb skin that has been stretched and shaved to “paper-thinness”). Are there other methods of producing manuscript leaves that have been discussed here or on other pages?
Nick,
I sure hope you are keeping a kindly eye on my meaningful meandering manuscript mentions. ?
For bdid1r et al., I strongly suspect that the sole example of & that I find in Stone’s huge book on Armenian cursive is just a scribe showing off and reversing the usual glyph for “f” by using the ampersand which is an almost exact mirror image. That scribe in 1800+ does not use “f” anywhere. “f” was added to Armenian in 11-13thC, as it was considered a foreign letter and was used originally for words of non-Armenian origin, as was the “o”. A lot of Armenian glyphs are pronunciations added to the standard alphabet giving Armenian 39 glyphs in all. A pronunciation as k’ was given by Stone but I cannot find in his book a single example where k’ (the Armenian glyph is that weird p with a line just under the loop) appears at the end of a word as he indicates it should. What complicates the language a lot is 1) an eastern and western version exist; 2) it is mixed often with Arabic and plain old Greek; 3) it does really vary all over the map. Stone’s mighty work covers cursive with examples roughly every 10 yrs and sometimes they differ so much that they appear unrelated. I find in the 1400-1450 period not many ligatures but I do find calligraphy. The VM abounds in calligraphy, one page in the herbal even shows little eyes at the start of a “word”, in discussing an herb that I think was used for eye complaints. I think the VM uses a substitution code but it remains unchanged throughout the VM. My guess is that the gallows figures are not ligatures involving two letters but that each represents one letter and that the same gallows figure always stands for the same letter. My book on Armenian cryptography is mighty slow in the mails but I hope to at least see a substitution code like that, among the 400 allegedly discussed. There is no punctuation at all in the VM text and I suspect one of the glyphs might be serving as a stop. I doubt that it is the “8” as that occurs too often and one would have to deal with a lot of very short sentences. The usual stop in Armenian cursive or print is a colon but this does not appear in all Armenian writing, or even much of it. Our period is used as a comma, their comma as an exclamation point. Totally a weird language and wearisome to try and make sense out of it. Still so many glyphs in the VM resemble Armenian that I think at least some characters are being used: Those loopy “2”s (there are two in lower case Armenian cursive; three in upper case), the “4”s, the “9”s , the inverted gamma, the ampersand and that “f” glyph, the “a”, the “o” , “c” and the tipped “s”, all are in Armenian of the 1400s. The “4” earlier and even latter can be open at the top but is closed in the early 1400s. I have yet to find any “8” glyph and that is disturbing. Anyway, all bets are off at the moment on the “&” and bdid 1dr’s guess is as good as any. Cheers, Tom
Nick and friends,
I’ve finished transcribing the mushroom, squash, and water lily pages. With the help of an updated and revised paperback Latin and English dictionary, by John C. Traupman, P.H.D., I’ve even picked up a little Latin grammar.
I’ll be stepping back into history, for a while, with my husband’s enormous family archive of earliest German/Dutch settlers of New York state in the 1600’s.
Nick, I do understand your wanting to keep the Vmystery a mystery for a while longer. So, without further ado, adieu!
🙂
Oh, I meant to give one last clue b4 signing out 4 a while:
Look up the figurative use of the word “nymph” as a term of affection. I’m seeing preparations for a wedding.
Dear all, And now for something completely different, While reading around in Stone et al.’s truly monumental book on Armenian cursive, I noted that in the 1430 period several examples originated from Kaffa, Crimea. On reading a bit about this city on the black sea, a Genoese port, I find that 2/3rds of the population of 70K (in mid 15thC) are Armenians and that gardening is important to them. I note also they are bitter rivals of Tana (now Azov, Russia) on the Don which was under Venetian control. Poor Kaffa now seems most remembered as the source for Europe of the Black Plague as the luckless Armenian holdouts in a seige by Mongols who were suffering the black plague themselves decided to share by lofting over the walls,bodies of their dead compatriots. Supposedly the first example of biological warfare. The plague may then have gone to Italy but some doubt it went directly but rather came in via Sicily. Well, these Armenians were good fighters and had been in the army of the Byzantine empire. They fled there after Ahmet II took Istambul and fought the Mongols to a standoff. Kaffa was earlier known then as Theodosia (now Fedosija, Ukraine) but an earlier name was “Ardabda”), a name that bears a certain resemblance to the “a” word on f116v which in Armenian would be “Oradaba8” Here the Greek delta is used and the Latin b and the “8” serves some unknown purpose. This might be straining a bit, but one possibility is that the VM is composed in or near Kaffa (Caffa), Crimea where monasteries abounded. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, More on Genoese and Armenians in the Crimea. There are mineral baths galore. There are three castles. Alas none have merlons although the best of the three, Sudak, has been heavily restored by the Russkies. Balaklava (Cembalo was the Italian name) appears to be only total ruins. Kaffa looks heavily restored but still not much there. Sunflower oil is now a big export. Also essential oils like rose oil, lavendar and the herbs sage and nutmeg. Any castle merlons from the 15C could have been removed for safety of tourists or knocked off in the sacking in 1475 by the Ottomans. Back to analysis of the oddball gallows; I think some additional ones exist. Cheers, Tom
Dear All, An decryption idea. Those “8”s are actually the Arabic number 8. How does this tie in with Armenian I hear you ask skeptically? As follows: Armenian did not use Arabic numbers but rather used letters of their alphabet in alphabetical order starting with “1” using their “a” which looks like a “w”. The “8” was their letter “c” and was a certain pronunciation of “e”. Well “c” abounds in medieval Armenian, particularly in texts from ca. 1430 AD. If this is true, then all the “c”s in the VM stand for something else and I think we are dealing with a substitution code with smaller gallows-like glyphs that will include: 2 c’s linked, 2 c’s linked with a comma above, 2 c’s and even 3 c’s. Incidentally, the Armenians really made life difficult with their number system. It does not include “zero” and I have no idea how they did their astronomical calculations unless they used Arabic (actually what we call arabic is actually Indian; although both Arabic and Indian used the “9” numeral that we are used to. I think it likely that “9” in the VM also represents an Armenian letter, this time, a “p” like character (p*) with a flourish atthe bottom of the loop. Armenian has cp* but not as often as does the VM and I have more work to do on Armenian cursive before concluding that “89” is derived from Armenian. In Roman, it would be “et” but each with inflections indicating pronunciation. This may all go nowhere but nothing happens without hypotheses, good or just goofy. Cheers, Tom
Dear Mr. Spande,
I can’t resist responding (really, no pun intended) to your latest discussion re the linked “c” or “c-e” characters, and especially the linked combination which looks like it has a “comma” or “curlicue” above the link: Even as recently as the nineteenth century here in the US, that curlicue above a group of letters indicating a syllable within the linked characters. Several weeks ago, I used as an example our Great-Great Uncle “Fred”:
Poor Fred: Because ensuing generations of the family did not understand the use of the “curlicue” for Uncle Frederick’s full name, he was, until very recently, missing from the family history.
Here’s my view, also on the linked “c”s and or linked “c-e”s:
The link-bar is not always attached to the slightly larger “c”, but is attached to the backside of the smaller “e” and does not quite touch the larger “c”. So, for example, I have found a very long word on the “mushroom” page which has been abbreviated with the use of the linked c-e characters and a “curlicue” above the link: coprinacae .
For those laboring in the botanical vineyard and others: Consider f45r of the VM. Those leaves look like mice, don’t they? Four little feet and a long nose! Well my guess is that they provide a clue that the roots, stems, flowers were used to either prevent or treat plague. The fleas that carry plague can be carried by many rodents, but rats and mice are the chief vectors. So the leaves which unfortunately are really badly tinted, indicate either dried or fresh leaves and stems and those weird flowers are used for plague. The severed roots and what I think is evidence of layering, indicate the parts of the plant used and in this case, the root, stem, leaves and flowers were used. This is all perhaps relevant to Kaffa, Crimea which suffered plague badly in the 14C and could be the source of the VM. Just a thought. Cheers, Tom
To bdid1dr: I thought initially that the & was a clear link with Europe, maybe Italian Renaissance but am now more dubious. It may have a use as you suggest. It takes a bit of squinting to clearly distinguish it from the Armenian “f” glyph and the “8” and only looking at some much later Armenian (17C) do I find it a lot but at the start of a word, within a word and at the end. Stone’s mighty opus is not much help for reasons I do not understand as he plows ahead into the 19C, yet I find it used only once and not where he indicates I should look for it. The two scribes are not uniform in their formation of the “&” glyph, not even with “8” and I think depending on the preceding letter, the scribe will start at the top or bottom of the “8” so these differ a lot. Some are squashed. The “8” never has a flourish whereas the other two glyphs (the “f” and the “&”) often do, but not invariably. These scribes are only human and on close examination of the VM text, one finds a lot of eccentricities and oddities. Diane observed awhile back that “many of the gallows glyphs are messed up” or words to that effect and I totally agree. I thought I had two new ones but now think it is just scribal fatigue. Anyway bdid1dr, your idea on this certainly might be what & is being used for. I doubt it is just a garden variety “and”. Diane’s idea of it being used to eliminate some word endings that convey grammatical use is also possible since as you both observe, “&” is often at the end of a word or paragrah. Cheers, Tom
ps. On a recent post (Sept 8), I put forward the idea that both 8 and 9 are used for Armenian “c” and a “p with a curl” and the Roman use is then “et” but I am not sure where this takes us. “89” often ends a word. The Armenians used letters for numbers and did not adopt Arabic numbers. This weird system, also not using “0”, is still official.
Dear all, For those whose eyes can handle some more squinting, look at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Codex_Cumanicus_58.jpg
This is a guide to Cuman, the language of the inhabitants of Kaffa, Crimea, prepared by scribes working for Genoese merchants. The original collection of Kaffa papers, caled the “Codex Cumanicus” resides in the library of San Marco, Venice. Note many occurrences of Armenian glyphs and some of those from the VM, including the “c”. “8” and “9”. Cumania was a huge tent and incorporated at one time those from China all the way into northern Europe where it mixes with Kupchak. More anon, but Cuman may be the flavor of the day. Cheers, Tom
Dear All, Today’s crazy idea: The VM is in Latin with Armenian glyphs. Note how many “words” of the VM end with “89”? These stood in Latin/Roman as used by Armenians for phonemes pronouncing “et” so these “words” are something ending with the Latin “and”. Here and there are “89” separately. I think bdid1dr was coming to think that the VM had a lot of Latin, having laid out cash for a Latin English dictionary, and my guess is that maybe the whole damned thing is Latin concealed with Armenian glyphs. It is coded for sure in that those gallows glyphs and the various permutations of “c” are ciphers. But today’ idea that I think might have been batted around earlier by Nick, Diane and bdid1dr among others is Latin. So one approach is going to Armenian for the Latin/Roman equivalent and then trying that out on the VM. I plan to start with some shorter words and see whether anything sensible results. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, One little punctillio. The VM “word” that looks like a florid question mark followed by “au” could be Latin “cos” short for “because”. This “word” appears at the start of lines 14 and 15 and uses the upper case Armenian character for Roman/Latin “c”. I am thinking that there are too many cases of “89” ending a word so some might be Latin “et” endings for words. More anon. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, a punctillio to a punctillio, I meant to include f72v as the sources for “cos”. Tom
Dear Mr. Spande,
Nothing at all crazy with your latest discussion!
Cuman — in this case scribed in what looks like (to me) Southern Italian miniscule, with a dash of Armenian. A couple of months ago, I got into “rant” mode while trying to clarify the “Beneventan miniscule”. So, continue, if you please! No yawns forthcoming from me.
bdid1dr (with a squint) %^
That beautiful bird. Note the phrase “algthma allahin hassidm” — on the second line above the bird’s head.
I was just getting ready to have some lunch, now, when the second word at top of the bird page caught my eye:
lorr “9” with a “^” above: to my eyes, spells “lorrikeet”.
So, who is beady-eyed: the bird or me?
bd
Dear all, Now for something really different. Years ago I read a book (I think it was “Memories of my Russian Summer”) and I recall a very odd custom they had in dealing with extreme heat on the steppes of Russia and that was to sit in tubs of water while they played cards. I note that inland of the coastal region of the Crimea, north-west of Kaffa, are steppes where the weather can exceed 100F. No mention yet of sitting in tubs, but I continue the search hoping to find why some zodiac nymphs are sitting in what appear to be barrels.
The Armenians must have a gift for always being in the wrong place (Incidentally, many are now stuck in Aleppo, Syria). They did survive the black plague during the attack on Kaffa by Mongols in 1349 but finally succumbed to the Ottoman attack by sea bombardment in 1475 and survivors fled north to Moldavia and the Polish border but did spend time in steppes of Crimea. They had come to the Crimea from Ani which was destroyed by the Seljuks in middle 11C. Ani was one of the most wonderful of ancient cities with 101 churches and 40 elaborate gates. It was in Eastern Turkey near Kars. Anyway, they seemed to have a gift from going from kettle into fire, over and over again. They were good fighters but often as mercenaries, like the Mamluks of Egypt, working for the Arabs. Many entries of the herbal section of the VM deal with “penetrating wounds” and I think the little arrow like leaves did represent where those wounds came from. Enough irrelevancies for the moment. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Two more from f72v of the VM that I think yielded to putting a phrase in Armenian and then going to Latin/Roman: They are: center bottom line “8au” = eas (feminine plural second person pronoun in Latin, ACC case); 5 and 7 lines up from bottom “8a”tipped question mark””= each (the Armenian c for the upper case has a diacritical that is like the slavic ch in Kovac). The old Word Perfect program had that character but it is missing in Word, Rats. It will be slow work but I think the 3 and 4 letter words that do not have gallows or “c”s can be forced out. That leaves a lot unfortunately and I will need an Armenian cryptography code and damn it may even have to learn to read that weird language. Hope not. Cheers, Tom
Mr. Spande & all:
Just for fun, I trawled the Codex Cumanicus “bird” ms. Here’s my identification of the bird and some of the descriptive terminology which accompanies the illustration:
psittacus-i
rose-ringed parakeet (earlier terminology would have been lorikeet)
virauatx, viridantis, green
strethcoi, strepitus, noisy
Amongst some of the other words on the list, I THINK I’ve translated another phrase on the “list”:
For several years I lived in San Francisco. On the corner of Ninth Avenue and Judah Street there was an “Arab” grocery store and diagonally opposite was an Italian bakery.
T’chukran (thank you) fully written out would have been (roughly) translated in reference to the Koran: Thanks be to Allah and the Koran.
Greek for Thank You: Evharisto
So, are you able to find the Armenian form for giving thanks on the “psiticula Krameri” manuscript?
One more focus on “minutiae”: Did you notice the letters at bottom left corner by the “Rose-ringed Parakeet’s feet?
signature or date line?
Dear All, I may have forced out the meaning of another glyph, in this case, the inverted “gamma”. It is not an Armenian glyph but I think replaces the Armenian “n” which is a “u” with a curl on the top left side. I think that the VM uses some of the Armenian glyphs, like the tipped question mark (= ch), the loopy reverse “S” which is an “s” in Roman/Latin, the Armenian “f” which is the treble clef and, central to the whole argument that the VM is in Latin with Armenian glyphs, is “8” and “9” for e and t. Both are phonetic so “89” has the right pronunciation for Latin “et”. These guys were perfectionists as though this was going to be published?I have no clue yet about the ampersand. It may be used for and, but not always. It does not appear in my Stone source for Armenian cursive in the period when the VM is supposed to have been transcribed. The Armenians in Kaffa keep on writing biblical stuff with the original Armenian cursive or some variations of it. The glyph “a” also appears in the VM along with “o” and the Armenians used both for “o” BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME.
Another observation: I think the original VM was strictly secular and the cross the nymph at top left holds (f79v) and the cross over the water(f75v) were added later.
Then the question naturally arises: Who made the VM? Were they “monks” (at least 2, maybe more) who were operating on their own, maybe outside of Kaffa? Why the code? If it were seen by Kaffa monks, they would surely recognize both Latin and Armenian? Were these monks (or scribes at least) part of some Armenian heresy? If it is Italian, then it surely is not any code that they couldn’t break in an instant. I think it is just a simple substitution code and the code stays constant. For example, the word for “each” (=8a”tipped question mark”) stays the same, page after page. English has sometimes a repeated pronoun as in “…such that that is essential for understanding…” I think repeated “that” is common in the VM. I have a long way to go in deciphering the VM but some stuff is starting to fall out. Unfortunately, I keep coming up with English as well! Such as a good equivalence (7 lines from top at start of sentence) for “one leaf: on f31v but, alas, neither word is Latin!
Why did I pick the inverted gamma as an “n”? Because there is in a few places in the VM, “inverted gamma-o-“inverted gamma” and I think this has to be “non”. Hard to think of any other letter there. “o-inverted gamma” abounds in the VM and I think is simply “on”.
Soon, I hope to come up with some “decrypts” that the membership can peruse. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
ps. Another possibility for the desguisng of the VM with a code is that the time is after 1475 when Kaffa had been sacked by the Ottomans and these survivors were operating somewhere in fear of Ottoman detection? This raises the question about how we really know that the VM was written at the time the vellum was prepared? What evidence is this conclusion based on?
Dear all, I keep nattering on about Armenian and maybe some consider this a catch all that can explain any old thing. Here is a good link so all can be on the same page:
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/script/armen.gif
recall that the goofy number system of the Armenians is to number across the top row, 1,2,3… for the glyphs in order from left to right.
Dear All, Things have gotten a whole lot more complicated and I am pulling back from thinking that the whole of the VM is Latin with Armenian glyps and some others added to disguise obvious Armenian, like the inverted gamma. I keep uncovering more and more English (one, on, each) and even German (och, noch, echt). Maybe Mary d’I is right and that failure awaits little old student “me”. I think I have figured out many of the pronouns being used for that and they are Latin But with a wrinkle that it uses the English “m”, More anon. Cheers, Tom
Mr. Spande & all,
The question regarding WHEN the inks and paints were applied to the vellum has still not been “definitively” answered. Several weeks ago, when we were discussing squash and pomegranates, I referred to an article in a book published by the San Francisco Chronicle “Chronicle Books” editors. The book was written in 1972, by Joe Carcione — the “Chronicle”s televised “vegetable guy”. (current day, we have Tony Tantillo giving daily veggie/fruit presentations).
Anyway, one item in Joe Carcione’s “The Greengrocer” caught my eye because you had been discussing pomegranates. According to Joe, besides the pomegranate’s symbolic uses, the juice was used for tanning leather — and pomegranate ink was indelible.
Over the past several months, I have mentioned the scraping and re-use of vellum/parchment by thrifty monks/scribes. I’ve also queried (and received little response) how inks/dyes/paints are “historically dated”.
As far as the uses of various plants for women’s health and welfare, we still keep returning to Ububchasym Baldach’s manuscripts. His was the first manuscript which has been “copied” and referred to — right down to present day.
Apparently, one or two other persons on these pages, are finding my “findings” to be repetitive to the point of “ho-hum”.
So, I’ll be returning to the forum I introduced not too long B4 the last h a c k ng . round and round. Also, the ladies have been conversing on coconuts …kings forum. Fun!
I will still be following your discussions. I still think the bird manuscript and its possible Genoese origins to be particularly relevant to these “cipher” pages.
Nick, I hope you’ve been following our discussions (besides and before your sequel goes to press). Note the lack of a Q-mark. I’m still hoping you’ve been able to contact Rene to let him know about the mushroom pages NOT being astrological (they are very hard to read/translate — but I’m getting there).
beady-eyed wonder
Mr. Spande,
Mary d’imp’s publication was 99% junk. To this day, Rene Z, one of the most meticulous researcher’s I’ve ever read, is stuck in “quandry-ville”. I am hoping that Nick will be able to pull Rene out of isolation: it breaks my heart to see him so tired and out of reach (he has many fans).
Mr. Spande (may I refer to you as TomS ?) please don’t quit yet! We need you: Check out Ellie V’s Big Bureaucracy page and the discussions also going on “coconuts n kings” forum pages.
bd1d1: I think you’ll find few agreeing with you about Mary D’Imperio. Here “Elegant Enigma” came out more than 35 years ago, and I wish even 10% of current writing on the Voynich came up to that standard.
Dear all, A link to ancient Latin pronouns:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/pronouns/a/013011-Latin-Pronouns.htm
In the bathing section one finds “eas”, “eos” for plural fem pronouns and “eam” for singular feminine pronoun. These are found in the VM as “8au (Arm for s)”=eas, 8am= eam. Oddly here the m (not Armenian) is used directly and is a borrowed letter from English/ German or whereever. I think it was Nick who pointed out the devilish complexity of these words and came up with a reasonable interpretation involved with counting the strokes. I think it is simpler and just pesky Latin pronouns. Looking now for 8a8 or just 8a. Blessedly “8” always seems to be an “e”. Note that a pronoun often repeats and I think this is a “that that” situation. The root VM text seems to have many words, that after decryption are not Latin. This is troubling at the moment. The VM seems just with the simple words that are approachable for decryption to be some weird polyglot. One “nesam” was even Romanian. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Well Mary d’I was dismissive of attempts to crack the VM text putting the hopeful code crackers in the category of “students” and destined to fail at that. Some encouragement that is!! Her book is available on CD at little more than the costs of shipping. I have it and it was to me, less useful, than Nick’s book. Not much in the way of any useful hypotheses.
The dating of the VM ink application might be approachable with a technique I just learned of from a chemist friend. A new infrared microscope exists and might yield some clues as to what kind of ink salts and binders were used. I think only the original ink is worth looking at. I think that that microscope (just using a repeated pronoun for practise) can be set up in the reflectance mode so would be non- destructive. I will try and get more info on this and convey it to the membership.
I think the only other way of getting at the date when the ink was applied would be textual clues. The Armenian cursive does fit the early 15thC but it would be more convincing if we could find words that came into use at a certain time.
Well, even if the Armenian-> Latin approach hits a wall, I am in this thing until I can figure out the gallows glyphs and those annoying “c” combinations. For that I think I need that Armenian code book by Abrahamyan. I think though that the gallows glyphs are not ligatures, but each represents a single letter, maybe selected among the Armenian letters that do not appear. Cheers, Tom
Tom: I don’t believe that “student” was in any way a dismissive term for her. Please let me know about the infrared microscope, sounds like something that could be extraordinarily useful! 🙂
I’d like to again refer to the script that appears on the “water lily” page (nymphae) and on the “lymphae” pages (baths): lots of latin-based script/word forms for all the activities being portrayed in the various water-themed Voynich folios. Using my latin/english dictionaries, I’ve been able to convert many of the Vms ciphers/into complete word forms. I’ve also been using the same converted ciphers on the “Mushroom” folio (which is a one-page document that a teacher/lecturer would have placed on his lectern). He would have rotated his “notes” forty-five degrees to address each pictorial element. He would “wind-up” his lecture with the paragraph that is written in the center of the four-sided border notes. That page is “all about” agaricales and coprinicae. I would not be able to identify the “common” name for those mushrooms unless I knew the countries of origin of the writers/illustrators. Unfortunately, for Rene Z. at least, that mushroom page is not an astrological diagram.
I mention this particular method of preparing/using lecture notes because this is what I did for my qualifying speech with “Toastmasters USA”. My subject matter was the footbinding imposed on Chinese girls/women from the time they were 3-4 years old. It was only after I finished my 4-sided lecture notes, did I place the note-page on the easel where the gentlemen could take a look at a photograph of a bare foot that had been bound for 55 years. The “er-um-ah” counter was speechless.
Infra-red microscope — whoo! Great! As long as it isn’t a binocular ‘scope”. (That’s another whole “ball of wax” which I won’t go into on these pages.)
Wouldn’t it be great if the infrared scope could also generate “power-point” images?
still bdid 🙂
Dear all, I have been working on the short “words” in the VM and got a few, like “on”, “each”, but began getting things like ean, ion, ont: the idea occurred to me, that the cryptographers are splitting off word endings for some reason.
Another VM glyph has fallen I think and that is the cc linked (c-c); no curlicue. I think it is “i” as it occurs in “it” (= c-c 9) and “in” (= c-c inverted gamma) and “is” (=c-c Armenian loopy backward S). Well where is the slow progress (if it is that) taking us? Maybe the word length is a misleading indicator for whether any text is in a legitimate language? If my idea is right, a lot of words are just endings for nouns or verbs that come before them. I keep popping up with English or what appears German with a lot of ch (c with circumflex) endings. Got me thinking about Bohemia and modern Czech. Turns out John Huss when not riling up the papacy, was also reforming the Latin used by the Czechs in the eastern part; the west used Cyrillic. He introduced diacritical marks but only one survives to this date and that is the c, which stands for “ch”. Huss was called to a conference in Constance in 1414 from which he did not return thanks to his being burned at the stake there in 1415. Here’s one for the membership to ponder. Why did a number of early theology reformers (Wycliff, Huss, Luther) also reform their languages? Huss stayed with Latin but the other two wrote in their vernacular languages.
Anyway, the VM abounds with “ch” s and the Latin of Bohemia is in the mix although the common occurrence of English is still not explained. Romansche doesn’t work either or the special language of the Venetians. Back to those pesky little VM “words” that may not be words as we understand them but rather word endings! Cheers, Tom
I also THink THat THat THeory THematically fits into our ongoing VMs discussions. Again, I pray that that infra-red m’scope will be usable for people with impaired depth perception . (Binocular microscopes are used for doing RBC, red blood cell counts, with a grid imprint on one ocular, and a blood smear sample on the platform of the other ocular.) The reason I mention binocular at all is because how is the infrared function going to be used in the analysis procedures? Fascinating! Can you give us a little more info or a reference to your source?
Merci!
Strange — I keep circling in a figure-eight pattern with the research I’m doing with the earliest “Palatinate” settlers of New York and Pennsylvania and the religio-political events of central Europe in the 15th through 17th centuries. Turns out that our Pennsylvania “Dutch” language is actually middle-European German (Lippstadt). Our Manhattan and Brooklyn Dutch were Dutch. Many gravitated to a huge land grant called Rensaellerswyck, and thenceforth throughout the Mohawk River Valley.
Even earlier arrivals to the North American continent were the French to Canada, with a whole strip of the continent extending southward to the coast of Louisiana (Acadians in Canada, and Cajuns in Louisiana).
So, Nick, TomS, and all, have I been donating anything “new” to our discussion of recent months in regard to the mystery language of the Vms?
Dear all, I reversed the areas of Czechoslovakia where Latin was used. It was in the west; the east used cyrillic as they came out of the byzantine empire. Whether Bohemia then used some German seems to me likely but where did the English come from?
Another decrypt from yesterday was the most common gallows glyph that looks like two “p’s” back to back. Once I had c-c as “i” then looking at “9_c-c 9” (second line of f11r) fell quickly to “trit” a good Latin verb for mix or combine. Chemists still “triturate” crystals by crushing and “mixing” them with a solvent in which they are insoluble. This removes impurities. Well, what does this “decrypt” show. (I hesitate to even call it decryption; it is more like crossword puzzle solving). It shows that at least this gallows glyph is not a ligature but stands for only one character and that is “r”. The Armenian “r” is like an “n” with a long left riser. I think the other gallows will turn out to be other Armenian letters that were too obviously Armenian to be used. The ones that exist in the VM, like the loopy backward “S”, the tipped question mark, the “o” 8 and 9 sort of look like Arabic. The oldest Armenian coding idea was to use two characters to represent one and the gallows would fit that idea. Oddly enough, early Armenian cursive was so complicated by ligatures and calligraphy that scribes began to avoid this as what resulted was in many cases unreadable.
On that IR microscope, this would be used by some expert and not for general use. It uses some very narrow laser beam of IR but can look at something the size of a period. I still am looking for a source and discussion. Back to gallows decrypts. Cheers, Tom
ps. I was wrong also about when paper hit Europe. It came in from the Moors of Spain but in the 13C not the 15C. It was around also in the East for hundreds of yrs before the vellum of the VM was made. A lot of important Armenian work was written on paper. So why do these scribes use vellum for a non religious use?
bdid1dr: if Voynichese is a language, then perhaps you have. 🙂
Dear all, “Is Voynichese what would be called a language?” I don’t think that can be answered until more of the code is cracked. A problem as I see it is that a lot of the VM “words” are suffixes that have been splt off from the preceeding noun or verb. Here is where a careful study of how scribe #1 (crabbed writing) and #2 (more relaxed) handle verb and noun endings would be interesting. It seems unlikely that they would break up words exactly the same way and that they have idiosyncratic styles. One possibility is that they are both working from a plain text and codifying it as they go along. I know this proposal has been out there for a long time. Julian was busy at the moment but using his coding for gallows and comparing the scribes with use of certain gallows could be interesting. Just eyeballing things, I don’t see much difference. Actually one could take the raw data of Julian and match it with the scribes and maybe this is something I might try when I get fatigued looking at those gallows.
If the VM has some use of nouns, pronouns, verbs, then I think it is a language. It seems however not completely Latin (“I could have been a judge, if only I had had “The Latin””). I am just winging it on Latin and going with what residue I have from a chemical training, some English lit and the liberal use of Internet Latin dictionaries. There is stuff that apparently has never been Latin and is German, Slavic or English, At the moment, I am guessing Voynichese is a language but sort of like “lecture notes” with abbreviations galore by some polyglot scribes. I note for instance a lot of “loopy backward S-9” “words” that I think mean “st” for saturated. Not standard as even in the early days of chemistry, “sat” was used.
Well, suppose if it is not a language by anyone’s definition but just a crazy string of words that don’t modify one another or do anything that a language does? Is it a hoax? Is it just some static accompanying herbs that never existed, water works that exist only in the overworked imagination of some water engineers? To find two (maybe more) who could carry out this work independently would strain likelihood, I think. Unless there is some uber scribe in charge, giving orders. Just too much careful work, particularly the herbal drawings, for it to be any kind of conventional hoax. I think it hangs together too well. I just don’t quite share that scribal vision as yet. Armenian is critical but it is not enough. Cheers, Tom
bdid1dr. I do keep running into old German, in the VM which shares words with Dutch. ach!, och! echt! stuff like that. Maybe there is some link to those early New Yorker kin of yours?
Nick, TomS,
The term you are translating would be titrate. Several weeks ago I went cruising through Philip Neal’s huge archive of Kircheriana.
One letter (written in Latin) I found that apparently ended up in Kircher’s archive was an Rx (capital “P” which actually looks more like an “R” with a hashmark on the extended leg. That “emblem” represents a very ancient abbreviation for the word “Prescription”. The letter’s entire content was a pharmacist’s instructions for preparing colloidal silver.
So, take the capital P and place a lower-case x adjacent to and under the loop of the P………
My interpretation of the two “gallows” are that the two-loop figure is for the syllable/sound of ell. elephant elegant elegy… put just about any consonants in front or behind that combined vowel (phoneme?) for a word such as “relevant”. Then again if you look at the other “gallows” figure (two uprights with a loop on only one of the uprights you can get the phoneme “TL” for words like “oatlilleum”: “water lily”.
I proceeded to translate the entire water lily (nymphae) page. There was no discussion on that page regarding the water lotus: nelumbo. nllmbo
? 🙂
Oh, I earlier commented on the “Nymphae” page (as an “aside”) that the Latin nymphae definition also indicated the word as to being a term of endearment. So, I still think that the oa ter lilium page and all of the bath-house pages indicated the preparations for a very grand wedding; with illustrations of the ladies waving certain veggies/fruit to confer “best wishes” for a fertile union. (Fertility was a BIG issue when it came to keeping powerful family lines/alliances in power.)
? 🙂
I’d like to bring up another reference I made regarding “visual clues” such as those that appear in several of Han Holbein’s portraits of various famous people — especially the “clues” that appear in his painting of Sir Thomas More’s extensive family portrait. Another one of Holbein’s paintings “The Ambassadors”, had numerous visual puzzles, as well as the “three-dimensional” skull that appears only when someone passes by the painting; “out of the corner of one’s eye”.
Just my contribution to “a slow day in cyberspace”. Have fun!
🙂
bdid1dr: one of my favourite paintings! Oh, and it’s only slow in cyberspace if that’s the speed you’re travelling at. Seems pretty fast here. 😉
Heh!
Furthermore: I see some difference in the Vcharacters that appear to be “9”. To me, the smaller “9” — which loop extends behind the neck– represents the sound of “ks” as in breaks, aches, mechanics, panics, expression….expound far too long do I? Am I taxing your patience?
🙂
bdid1dr: ain’t no tax on that. 🙂
To bdid1dr et al., The word was not “titrate” (another good chemical expression) but “trit” which is the Latin verb for “to mix or combine” and is still used in chemistry where the operation is referred to as “trituration”. I hold to my view that the p-backward p is “r”. I totally agree with you on the single loop however; that gallows that Julian refers to as “f” is “l” as you have deduced. At least we are on the same page with that one and maybe agree that each gallows glyph is a single letter. I am working on the idea at the moment that c-c with a glyph in between is “ixi” where the “i” is repeated and the “x” is the usual “r” or “l” or whatever.
Now the big question is: why separate those Latin suffixes or sometimes just part of a suffix into a separate word. Is it to make the word length resemble another language, like maybe English? There are just too many “ean”, “ion” and others to be just a scribal inconsistency. It is done deliberately thoughout. It adds to the coding difficulty as does another practise and that is deleting a letter. Notice the “L” glyph does not precede “8a(Armenian f)” which would have clearly spelled “leaf”. This would have made cracking that glyph pretty easy since leaves abound. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Also “leaf” is not Latin, it is English. Latin would have been folium or folia, from which we get folio.
Just to reiterate some of the arguments used in decrypting the VM. The depend upon the Armenian language and their very odd practise of representing numbers with letters. The “8”and “9” glyphs jump right out and often appear together. Once I realized that they were Romanized Armenian for e* (pronounced like the e in et) and t'(stop) respectively, then I could start working on decrypts. Some variation in the 9s is seen but I would not attach much importance to them. Another decrypt that is tricky is the “4” which is not used as an Armenian would use it (like h) but is used as a “c”. So the Armenians who presumably made this thing, use just a few of their own glyphs, the loopy backward “S” which is “s”. Note it appears in “c-c loopy S” and means “is” , another word that is not Latin. Est would have been used there. Then there is the “left tipped question mark” which was Armenian for “ch” and this is all over the place, often as och. The remaining Armenian glyph is that queer mirror image “&” which was introduced into Armenian in the 11-13C and stands for “f” Oddly enough that still has the use of f in the VM. The VM uses o and a at the same time (the glyph a is not in Armenian directly; that is supplied by the weird “w”. Why not decrypt the whole thing but leave some letters unchanged? That is a puzzlement, as well as splitting many of the longer VM “words” often in some arbitrary way. I think many or maybe most of the short words are either English (is, one, in, on) or suffixes. A few might be prefixes. One thing I am wondering about is whether the VM was designed to separate Rudolph from some ducats by incorporating some English words that might be argued came from the writings of Roger Bacon. The ampersand is troubling in that in the collection I have of Armenian script, there is not an example to found until the 19thC. It is all over the place in the VM and stands for the letters “et” within a word as “89” is used for “and”. A few more glyphs will fall I think and then my guess is that we will have to start rebuilding words to make sense of it. Anagrams are not impossible but do not seem, at the moment, to be present.
I will persue trying to date the VM from textual clues like when “&” pops up in European writing. If the scribes are Armenian, they are not like the ones from Kaffa that I have examples of, who never use it. Cheers, Tom
To bdid1dr. I realize in reading your posts on two of the gallows,that I have misinterpreted you. You meant both gallows, I think, to represent ligatures. The so called “f” gallows (nomenclature of JB) to represent “tl” and the other, to repesent some more complex ligature or phoneme involving also “L’s”. Examine f9r, fourth line where “o p*-p a “tipped question mark”” exists. My idea is that the “double p glyph” is a single “r” and that the Voynich word is “orach” which is Latin for “from the garden”. You may be correct in your work with the lily but I am not sure it holds for all occurrences of that particular gallows glyph. I may be wrong about “eaf” (VM translation by me) missing the “L” to complicate the life of the decryptor. Maybe it is something else altogether. Cheers, Tom
ps. I have a nagging suspicion that my simple minded approach is one that will end badly. It has to be more complicated or all those royal smart people would have broken the code decades ago. Nothing in my approach that even requires a computer. Maybe I am just following Newbold’s path to ignomony. At least I will refrain from calling a press conference. Still I do wonder about letter and word counts when they appear totally unreliable to me since how can they be done until the VM is decrypted? An old Armenian code from the 9th C, carved on a stone, uses double letters to represent a single one. I think the same idea might hold for the VM, where it occurs most noticeably with those strings of “c’s”. I think the gallows glyphs are not ligatures and the coders hand us a gift. I think the gallows are consonants and the c’s might all be vowels.
pps. The ampersand was pretty uncommon in medieval cursive. It really took off with printing (1477).
Dear all, Yet another hurdle for the VM decryptor. I think letters are missing in the VM text making the hard life of the decryptor more difficult. I note the “9-“g”gallows” appears often as the first letters in a word. I have a translation of this part of a VM word as tp (“g” gallows is JB’s nomenclature) and “p” seems to fit for the g gallows and results in some ordinary Latin words like “poneam” (f13v first word in second para) which can mean “suppose” or also “set”. If a vowel is missing in combinations of “t and p”, the likely letter missing is y. (Armenians used their glyph that looks like “J: to represent “y” in Roman; maybe that will be the only missing vowel?). Then the question arises: How many more cases are there of missing letters? I think “l” is missing from the commonly occurring “eaf” of the VM. So my guess for the VM text at the moment is: word length is totally arbitrary, the text is chopped up, some letters are missing and I am thinking some letters are repeated with different glyphs. Hope not,. But overall, I think the code stays the same and “8a”tipped question mark”” is always “each” BTW “trit” means more commonly in Latin, “to rub” and not “to combine” as I indicated in an earlier post. Titration also occurs as bdid note but in Latin, this meant “title” (from titulous) and had nothing at all to do with the chemical word titration. How this word got hijacked by chemists, I have no idea. It does seem to appear though here and there in the VM. Since titration as used in chemistry is the adding of molecule A to molecule B until equivalence (usually 1:1) is reached as in oxidation-reduction or acid-base reactions, it would seem out of place in an herbal where no chemistry is presumbably going on. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
ps. Another Latin word grabbed by chemists is “tincture” and I am guessing it will show up. That is just a solution, usually dilute, of some dye or substance.
a loop on each upright post = el-ephant, el-egant , put a “P” in front of that double loop character, and then an “n” and “9” and you have P-ell-ing.
🙂
bdid1dr: so, at heart Pelling is an elegant elephant? 😉
Oops, pun was totally UN-intended! I was just trying to clarify the use of the characters that look like “loopy telephone poles”. TomS seemed to be using the term “gallows” in reference to the figure nines.
So, the smaller “9” is the “ecks” syllable/phoneme. The larger figure “9” is the “guh or kuh” sound which can be made at either the beginning of a word or at the end.
The character which is most often confusedly used is what looks like the 9, but has a straight leg extending below the line of script: (and which loop sometimes resembles the numeral 4) is read by me as the “kw” or “qu” syllable/sound.
My husband’s latest donation to my Latin reference books is a “New Latin Grammar” (Allen and Greenough, Dover Books). Egads!
More bdid every day!
Dear All, Dept. of clarification. I am using the term “gallows” glyph as first put forward, I think, by Nick in his book. It includes the one bdid dduce as a “tl” from the lily page but I am thinking now is generally just “l” (JB calls it the F glyph, likely after Currier); The telephone pole thing (actually maybe a good name as it has none at the moment) is the Latin/Roman letter “r”; the gallows that JB calls a “G” gallows (classical Palmer penmanship survivor there I think! but used by Mary d’I) is “p” and the gallows that looks like the G but lacks the left sided loop is “h” (I think; still a work in progress). JB has mapped them all, the “F-gallows” and the “G gallows” in color and all the rest over the whole of the VM, page by page. That is data waiting to be mined further. Interesting in “the Enigma” book, none of the gallows glyphs match these decrypts except the p (from the first study group). Other decrypts: the “4” has nothing to do with the number, nor even with Armenian cursive where it is common for the Armenian “h” and the Roman “h”. In the VM it is “c” and occurs often at the start of words like “colam” for strain (as in a collander). bdoes maybe have a point about “9s” but I think virtually all are “t”. I am finding though, that the Armenian rascals are using some of the c glyph combos for previously used vowels: c-c can also mean e (instead of the 8 that is more common) and c-c with a curlicue above it, with apologies to uncle Fred, does not indicate an omitted letter but is the garden variety “u” and occurs often for “ut” (=”as” in Latin). bd may be complicating things by focusing on sounds for a text that, so far as we know, was made to be read. But who is to say at this point. This is why,I think, that a lot of the Armenian characters are missing that pertain to phonetics. That little diacritical mark that appears over the c-c pair is I think a deliberate means of making the VM look more Arabic. There are some shorthand lines also.
Well, the Voynichers of the present time, seem to be on the same page: The VM is in Latin! But it is encrypted Latin for sure. What complicates life, is something JB and Reed have observed and that is that the VM text is all chopped up and word lengths are meaningless, usually but not always. Also I think letters are missing,particularly “y”. I don’t think though that we need to get into anagrams just yet but I would not rule them out. Cheers, Tom
ps. Latin has changed a lot over the years and maybe this thing can be dated when and if we can ever get all the Latin squared away. I think it is conceivable that one can line up the glyphs without spaces and then go for “best guesses” as to what was meant by reintroducing a final spacing. Then the real problem exists in figuring out 1) the origin; 2) the purpose and 3) exactly when.
Telephone poles. Huh-whuh? With the onset of the latest and greatest in communications technology, I guess you can guess from what era I emerged, hmmmh? Ennyway, I haven’t watched television in over thirty years, but did utilize a television set as a screen for my Apple IIC. First piece of software I purchased was a disc that simulated how to take off and land an airplane. From that initial “take-off”, both of my sons motivated themselves through high school and college. We were living in “Silicon Valley” at the time.
I enjoy corresponding on cipher mysteries. Please don’t hesitate to “tamp-down” on my posts if I’m getting out of line!
bdid “Granny” 🙂
Thomas: people have called them “gallows” characters since at least 1992 if not earlier (though I don’t believe D’Imperio calls them gallows), which is even before my time. 😉 And don’t forget that Elizebeth Friedman – probably a better codebreaker than all of us put together – said that all attempts to read Voynichese as a simple substitution cipher were doomed to failure.
Dear all, The “Elegant Enigma” is on line as a pdf. I looked briefly at it yesterday to see what evidence there was for Latin being the language of the VM, which seemed then by consensus to be the most likely. It was considered European based on clock hand designs and “a northern European hand” but some Latin scholars opined that it was in some very odd, substandard version. I am wondering, how Latin got past the starting line at all in that only about 4 glyphs of the VM appear also in Latin: a, o, c and m. All the others are so weird: the gallows (thanks Nick for the history of that), the mirror image of & (used by Armenians as “f”), the “4”.”8″ “9”, (why not Roman numerals?) the inverted gamma, the tipped question mark and the loopy inverted “s” and the ampersand itself, which I find was very rare in European cursive before printing (ca. 1470). The dating was impressively close to being on the mark, particularly with those clock hands, having a short hand for the hour, which evidently did not come into use until ca. 1500 in Italy. The choice of Latin, not unanimous, was sort of a hand waving job with that language being the language “of the learned”. It strikes me as a totally “eurocentric” prejudice. The arabs even used it, here and there, as they did Armenian.
I happen, as a total amateur, to think IT IS a substitution code and that Latin is the root language, just by chance. It it had been coded by the Armenians and was in Armenian, then all bets would be off as to whether the thing could be decrypted. Why Latin was chosen is still a mystery to me and why some Armenian glyphs remain (4, tipped question mark, loopy reversed S and the “f”). The Armenians used “o” but that was common in many languages, including Latin. Why do many English words appear in decrypts? And a lot of use of the “ch” suggesting that some German might be also employed, although Latin also used it.
The Armenian diaspora was widespread and the VM might have come from Asia minor or southern or middle Europe. Armenians were all over the place, many in Moldavia, Romania and Poland. I still like the connection between Armenia and Genoa as it was significant in the Crimea. Is the readership aware that Genoa also controlled at least three islands in the Agean: chios, samos and lesbos. Are the bathers on the isle of Lesbos? I plan on looking next at clock designs east of Venice. The Arabs were into accurate time keeping way earlier than the Europeans as they had to fix their five times for prayer exactly. A short hand for the hour would not surprise me at all. I still nurse the hope that the VM can be totally decrypted but that will not be the end of the mystery at all. Cheers, Tom
Tom: Brumbaugh’s clock face notion was without much doubt a red herring – the vellum dating sits 50+ years earlier than the earliest modern two-handed clock face (e.g. the Venetian clock in “Curse” was a single-handed 24-hour clock, and that was completely typical).
As for Latin: one good reason that Latin was suggested was because the Voynichese letter ‘9’ not only resembled the abbreviation ‘9’ found in Tironian notae, but also mimicked the positioning within words that that Tironian ‘9’ presents (i.e. word-initial ‘9-‘ standing in for ‘com- / con-” etc, and word-final ‘-9’ standing in for ‘-us’ / ‘-um’ etc). However, this observation begs at least twice as many questions as it attempts to answer!
Nick, Thanks for the headsup on that clock and also the suspected use of “9”. I can see a problem there in the “89” occurs a lot.
On a totally different subject: Was any attempt made to carbon date the “organic” binders of the Voynich text ink. It was described as I recall as iron with some organic substance as a binder and I am guessing (or maybe dimly remembering) gallic acid or gum arabic or oak gall. Any of these might have been worth C-14 dating the organic component. I am guessing that inks would be made up pretty much at the time of use. If the C-14 date were way earlier, that is no problem as the gallic acid or whatever just sat around awhile. BUT if the gallic acid was carbon dated to well after the vellum was prepared, then there is a big problem.
Just heard a lecture on mass spectrometric imaging of biological tissue where a laser beam of 1 micron diameter can be used. It is destructive but I think could be used on tiny areas of the VM where original inks or the text ink was used. It could identify quickly by molecular weight, the ink ions and organic binders. Will read up more on this. It would be more definitive than IR which is just going to give absorbance spectra. It might take just a tiny bit of ink as in making a tiny palimsest but settle once and for all how old the ink is. Cheers, Tom
OK, gentlemen, here’s some Q’s from me and, maybe a couple of useful donations to the discussion:
#1 The “tilting question mark: Several months ago, on these pages, I referred y’all to some “Oscan” writing/scripts. To me, anyway, Oscan capital “C” was written backwards, and the “tail” (I thought was called a cedilla) appeared as a straightened bar at the base of the large, backward-facing, “Cyrillic” C. Further discussion also revealed that this “capital C” appeared before a “leading vowel”.
If I can recall correctly, a website called Omniglot is somewhat helpful with further explaining/explicating.
As far as the “clock-face” — ? Are you referring to a sketch which appears on the bottom-most, left-most “rosette” of the Nine-rosette folio? If so, Friar/Brother Kircher indicated on his engraving of the “Alban Lakes” that, that was the rounded conical roof of a “ferentium”.
Another item I’ve mentioned b4, which Fr. Kircher pointed out on his engraving of the Nine Rosettes folio (Alban Lakes): “Valscorum Regni pars Velitrae” in (uppermost, rightmost Rosette). So, would it be possible for one of you (Nick, TomS) to read/transcribe the Vscript that encircles the Palace and its grounds?
I’ll be perusing my new “Grammar” for more clues to what the Vmanscript is saying.
So, while perusing my new Latin Grammar, I may have come across a rule of Latin Grammar (Structure of the Period, section 601a):
Volsci exiguam spem in armis, alia undique abscissi, cum…….
This is just a tiny segment of (Liv.iv.10). The writers of this Grammar further explain that clauses are usually arranged in the order of prominence in the mind of the speaker: so, usually, cause before result; purpose, manner, and the like, before the act.
No more lectures from me; just an interjection here and there, I promise! Errrr, maybe a short rant once in a great while? But do check out the rules for Oscan/Volsci/Velitrean ciphering/grammar.
Cya! 🙂
Oh, I was going to begin my notes with the observation:
&9 = aes eum Example: nymph-aes-eum (bath-house)
🙂
Good TZT (substitute whichever time zone hour applies to you):
Wll, I hv cmpltd smch v folio 86v3 as I feel necessary to prove my interpretation of the various mystery folios (any of them).
The mystery writer was illustrating his presentation on how to identify/classify particular “edible” mushrooms which might still produce extraordinary effects after ingestion. Particularly interesting was that some of the script identified the birds on the water as being “Halcyon”: Bird that makes its nest on water. Halcyon mythology in turn refers to hallucinogenic effects, if not even deathly effects.
So, you have a choice of several “inky” mushrooms which deliquesce and melt into the soil. One of the coprinacae in particular can be deadly: Here in the US it is identified as the “Alcohol Inky” If alcoholic beverages are drunk within three days before or after ingesting that mushroom,delirium and even death can result.
I have mentioned my efforts with folio 86v3 several times in recent posts. I hope you will have as much fun with it as I have.
I’ll be lurking for a while. Fall is falling, and we have lots of cleanup on two lots to do (six-acre ranch on the other side of the lake, and our mountain cabin/gardens home here at 3000ft elevation).
Happy Halloween Y’all! 🙂
Tom: my understanding is that deposited ink is generally so lightweight that you’d have to (destructively) scrape most of the ink off a page to stand any chance of getting enough organic mass to carry out radiocarbon dating. Which is a shame, but there you go, it is what it is – and the Beinecke curators are unlikely to do anything that destructive to the VMs in the near future. The McCrone report (which presumably you’ve seen?) says a lot about the inks, well worth a read: http://ciphermysteries.com/2011/06/01/voynich-the-mccrone-report-now-online (plenty of comments on that page too). Enjoy! 🙂
Cinnabar? Red ore from mercury mines. Another term for the mineral was quicksilver. For many years, here in the US, our Western Union telegraph service used the legendary messenger “wing-footed” god Mercury as their logo. So, does anyone see the possibility of ground cinnabar being used as red ink? If so, could McCrone have found some non-invasive, non-destructive way to test/assay for it?
Q: If paper was in common use in Europe by the 15th century, why would the mystery manuscript still be written on parchment/vellum? For whose eyes, and for what purpose?
Q: IF one purpose might be for a “rough draft” for future editing and send-off to the “publishers”, who would be the “publishers”?
Folio 41v : Roots are radishes
Folio 42r: Two plants, on same page, between which identifying colors were (inadvertently?) switched:
The larger leaf was raddichio (because it was red, with white veining, and tasted like mild radish). The smaller, tri-leaved plant was cilantro (green), which has a flavor all of its own, and is a primary ingredient of “pico de gallo” (mild salsa). Do you think someone may be able to decode/translate the Vriting?
55v : My tentative ID, which I will (or not) confirm by transcribing, is the water LOTUS (nelumbo).
Let me know (a simple yea or nay) if you want me to transcribe. Either way, I am very grateful to you, Nick and friends, for the opportunity to keep my aging eyes and brain occupied, rather than dwelling on “old stuff”!
😉
bdid1dr: vellum was far more expensive than paper, for sure. Yet its hardiness meant that it was generally preferred for contracts and official documents: while its ability to withstand water splashes made it preferred for seafarers’ maps. You’d have to be a pretty rich 15th century person to write a draft of anything on vellum – back then, even paper wasn’t particularly cheap.
Dear all, I think that tipped question mark is the Armenian glyph, equivalent in Roman/Latin to “ch” or the c as used by the Czechs thanks to Jan Huss in the 14C, who reformed their Latin.
Now the Armenian connection which I like for other reasons, (like the VM calendar, the zodiac signs, the absence of a real “zero”, but particularly the glyphs that remain in the text of the VM) poses some questions. I am thinking that Rudolph II might have recognized some of the remaining Armenian glyphs (why leave some in?) and might even have spotted the frequent occurrence of “8” and “9” and maybe deduced that these were being used in the very odd Armenian counting system to represent the Roman letters “e” and “t”, so might have hoped the VM was in Latin. He recognized some Latin letters like “a” and “o” and “m” but then he got into a thicket of cryptographic tricks like arbitrary word lengths and missing letters and was not able to crack the code. I think the number 4, which was used by Armenians as the Roman “h” had nothing to do with the numbering system, like the 8 and 9 do. The Armenian glyph for “4” would have been their n with a long riser on the right, corresponding to the Roman “d”. I am pretty certain that the 4 in the VM which seems invariably followed by “o” is “co” and that a lot of Latin words with “col” or “cor” or “con” result.
Back to Rudolph II. The VM might be a hoax to part him from some ducats as he might have known of Armenian talents in astronomy and alchemy and just enough clues were embedded to convince him of both an Armenian origin and the likelihood the VM was in Latin?
I am currently at work on trying decrypts on all the “4o” words in the herbal section of the VM. Many good Latin verbs show up like colit, colam, coles, colet, colit, colas, etc. meaning “to filter, strain or purify”. I am planning to organize this data by scribe and by paragraph on each herbal page. The occurrences of “4o” words range from 4 to 17 but so far it does not appear that there is any scribal preference for these words. Incidentally “4o” words are very rare in Armenian cursive.
I have also wondered how the scribes of the VM came by vellum when most Armenian writing of famous biblical texts was using paper from the 12C onward. I think the VM is totally secular with any religious iconography being added much later.
For b: cinnabar is the sulfide of mercury, i.e. the ore. It was commonly used as a red pigment in paints but not sure about inks. Quicksilver results after the sulfur is removed. It is elemental mercury.
Nick, thanks for the link to the ink analysis. Cheers, Tom
ps. Offline for a few days thanks to Sandy.
Dear all, FYI, Armenians, never shy about claiming firsts, take credit for having invented “red ink”. The did not use cinnabar as the Chinese did for lacquer ware, but rather they got the dye from a worm ,”Vortan Gameer”, found in Armenia, sort of like conchineal I guess, from a Mexican beetle. The red pigment, if made by that worm, could be carbon dated as would be true of anything produced by a living organism. There is a lot of red in the VM but so far as I can tell, McCrone and company do not give data on that ink. Cheers, Tom
ps. a lead chromate is also called Austrian cinnabar.
This is taking us into the weeds.
Do I understand, now, the difference between parchment and vellum (fine skins for vellum; tougher, thicker skins for parchment)? Interesting that the Boenicke indicates Ms 408 as being parchment.
So, considering how much was paid out for Ms 408 over the centuries, did any of the purchasers “get their money’s worth”?
Cochineal! Madder Root! Both used extensively for yarn/fabric dyepots. Colors to “dye” for — maybe inks also?
bdid1dr is also a “so-so” handspinner/dyer/knitter/weaver.
bdid1dr: trying to define “parchment” and “vellum” can trigger near-jihadi flames from people who believe that what they were taught should stand for all eternity. Me, I tend to use vellum to denote “normal-quality double-sided animal-skin writing support material” and parchment to denote “single-sided presentation-quality animal-skin writing support material”, but don’t expect anyone to actually agree with it. 🙂
Are you getting your money’s worth out of the Voynich Manuscript? I think you are! 😉
You bet I am! An-n-n-d I don’t have to pay the cost of “Royal Purple” pigment (Tyrolean?) (From a now nearly-extinct marine shell).
Heh! :^
Dear all, The ink compositions being based on colored salts and “binders” is compatible with medieval inks. Any aniline dyes for reds would have raised the issue of fakery unless those were definitely shown to have been applied much later.
Today’s tentative decrypt: On f29r, second word, we have the linked c (i.e. c-c) with a tilted question mark between the c’s and a c following this glyph and then the “word” “am”. I read this as “ichi(c)am”. I think it shows that the c-c when surrounding another glyph, like that tipped question mark for “ch” means that the i preceeds and follows the embedded glyph. I think it also shows that the (c) in this case is a null character and maybe in fact a null throughout the VM. I could not get a lot of “colc..” decrypts to work until I dumped the c. I think the “4” is the only glyph used for c in the VM. Well, what did that word I “decrypted” mean, I hear you ask. It is simply Latin for “iciam” which in English is “to hit or strike”. The problem I see with Latin is that a lot of words sort of look OK, particularly di- or tri- syllablic words starting with a vowel. Maybe I am already in the weeds? Latin has no “J,K,X,Y,Z” but I think “y” has to be added back to some “tp” words of the VM to make sense in English.
Now for somethiing to ponder, a few words, like “utrit” (5th word, f29v) make sense only in Czech Latin. Maybe I am way out in the weeds. Still waiting on the Abrahamyan book on Armenian codes. I think the scribes are still working on a “print on demand” copy!
On the question of Armenians in medieval Bohemia. Damned few. Now the Czech republic has several thousand but only after the breakup of the USSR. The main European countries of the Armenian diaspora (largely driven by fleeing the Ottomans) did occur after the late 14C and were chiefly to Cyprus, the Balkans and Italy with some to Ukraine and Greece. Another oddball factoid: Armenians tended to intermix with the Romani (“gypsies”) and some of the Romani language contains Armenian words used in common, like handful and forehead. Later, in the 16-17C, some Armenians were in western Czechoslovakia(still used Latin), having migrated through the eastern part, now Slovakia (Cyrillic users). Now everyone has a headache and needs a handful of some herb for relief. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Thanks b for correcting the spelling of cochineal. Years ago the New Yorker had a piece on a serious salmonella outbreak in a pediatric ward. The ward employed a common practise of using a “red dye” to measure the rate at which food was digested by the infants as the dye would appear in the faeces marking the end of the active digestion phase. All assumed they were using a commercial aniline dye that was pure as the driven snow but one nurse looked it up and found it to be cochineal from a Mexican beetle, many of which were infested with a salmonella bacterium. The pathology nurse who looked it up had gotten a little sample of “Santa’s ouput” as a Christmas prank and was trying to prank right back but needed the supply of dye and was the first to discover its source. Once the natural source of the dye was made clear, the use was banned and most of the babies recovered. Today’s department of useless knowledge. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, That little decrypt of today might reveal something worth pondering and that is why the tipped question mark is used at all, when “4” is a pretty decent “c”. Well, maybe it could be argued that the VM coders needed the “ch” sound because it is the main residue of Jan Hus on Czech Latin (late 13th C) and hangs on today in the Czech language. So the Armenian glyph for the tipped question mark fit the bill and maybe this does mean that those many “och” “ach” words are in medieval Czech Latin? If the VM were medieval Czech Latin, then there will be other “Hussite” letters that used diacriticals from that period. They disappeared in later Czech Latin. Will pursue this some more by focusing on VM “words” that incorporate that glyph. Cheers, Tom
TomS & all,
Herbs for headache and fever: willow bark (aspirin). I haven’t been able to trace when quinine first became available (for malaria/filaria. I bet you’ve already been investigating?
An excellent source for info re Rom: A History of the Gypsies – by David M. Crowe (Crowe, apparently is a common name among the Rom.)
Apparently several generations of Wenceslas rulers/Rudolf and Maximilian’s parents/grandparents were relatively benign with itinerants — and also apparently had a whole neighborhood for Jews.
Check out Ellie Velinska’s blog Big Bureaucracy (She has several: one of which discusses the Duc de Berry and his fantastic horde (much of which ended up in the Boenicke archive also). Ellie was a “Green Card” lottery winner and emigrated from Czechoslovakia to the US several years ago. I appreciate her “tongue-in-cheek- sense of humor.
Have fun — and stay out of those water weeds! Or, at least keep your head above the waterline!
As b d i d asever!
Duke de Berry’s fantastic “horde” –. Did I really write that? Can you just see all of his men “hangin’ out” at the Beinicke Library?
Ennyway, “hoard” was the word intended,
🙂
bdid1dr: happens to us all. Only the other day I accidentally referred to chain-mail pants as “security breeches”, don’t know what I was thinking of. 🙂
Well, gang, guess what I just found while transcribing Folio 55v (water Lotus folio)? Several days ago, I referred to that tiny little character which looks something like the “9” except that it has the loop extended past the down-stroke. I have once again encountered it (somewhat rare-appearing):
I’ve just now validated my “theory” that that (see, TomS, the that-that again?) tiny character IS an “x” ! What is very interesting about this character is that it can also be used as the single alphabet letter “t” — similar to the “crucifixion” cross., or “X-your heart”, or…Am I making you X with my mxd metaphors?
Very interesting to me. From my unique experience (hearing impaired) of being forced into the “Business-Secretarial” curriculum and having to learn Gregg Shorthand. Of necessity, I developed my own shorthand (on the sly) while reading my teacher’s lips. Danged if I was going to write three scribbles for the word “cross”!
To b, I think that the “9” glyph you describe is nearly always a “t” and “8” is always an “e”. The printing of “9” varies between scribes and even with the same scribe, so some variation is seen. Together “8” and “9” make “et” and both numbers are the key or “crib” to decrypting the VM as the two numbers are used by the Armenians where letters are used for counting. The Romanization of Armenian makes these e and t. Now whether the 9 can represent some other character like “x” is a new wrinkle. Would you share any you find? I do have a major problem with my decrypts and that is the Latin “q” and “d” and “g” are not evident, yet. “G” in Latin is rare but not the other two. Incidentally Armenian has no “q” but does have a “d”. Now complicating things a lot is that I think Arabic pops up here and there in the VM. I think it is on the very first page of the VM where that squirrly backward “3” occurs near the top of the right margin in red. That is likely the Arabic for “th”. It occurs next to what looks like a red “2” in parts. There is a “9” at the bottom right and that differs from Voynichese in having a very long tail. It could be “s” and follows a very sylized “s” that is arabic for “d” , BUT the old Arabic number for 9 is also 9, like the new “so-called” Arabic numbering system that is actually Indian derived. The 9 happens to be the only number shared between the early Arabic and Indian and the numbers that we use. Now is everyone confused?
Note another odd thing about f1v. There are four gaps put into paragraphs or sentences to make the right margins line up? Why fuss about that here and no where else in the VM? Are the red glyphs in the left margins, just perchance, logos for the double headed eagle of the Hapsburgs? Was this thing created with Rudy II in mind? The frequent inclusion of
“&” in the VM is hard to square with an early 15C date but maybe early 17C fits? Rudolph apparently just has the VM and 600 ducats less on or about 1602; the source never made clear that I can recall. The ampersand was not in common use for cursive until after the advent of printing in Italy ca.1470. The Armenians did not use it until late 17C..
Incidentally, my partial decrypts in the herbals so far appear to deal with agricultural practices and not medicine as I had first hoped. Lots of “orach”s (from the garden); “olim” at that time; “ut” with the result; “opto” select, “colam” to purfiy, “ano” year. No cures yet. Could it be that the herb pics are where ALL the medical use is embedded and the text is just gardening info? Will continue plugging along. Cheers, Tom
Thomas: the end-page writing, zodiac hand, and quire numbers are without any real doubt mid-15th century, which you’d have to tie yourself into some considerable knottage to reconcile with any kind of 17th century dating for the text. 🙁
So, gentlemen, I’d like to pose the Q I raised several weeks ago: Is there anyone “out there” who would have access to more information about Athanasius Kircher’s parent (Johann) who was an academic, and taught at a Benedictine monastery near Fulda/Geisa , Heilegenstadt. (?)
Keep in mind that A. Kircher could have carried his father’s manuscripts) with him on his journey to Rome; which journey apparently was very dangerous and protracted. Also, Athanasius was being sponsored by the Archbishop of Mainz (at Auschaffenburg). So, who knows how much of Athanasius’ polymathism was genetic, or how much may have been from reading his father’s manuscripts (the VMs, for one)?
Dear all, I also wonder why the VM ends up in the hands of Rudolph’s Royal botonist Jacobus de Terpenec (probably originally had a diacritical over c?) and then the name is erased? Probably scraped off? UV as used by Voynich would pick up such a mini palimsest operation as compressed parchment scatters light differently from uncompressed. I am guessing that Rudy with the aid of various court alchemists knew the VM was a dud in that respect. Maybe he or some in the court knew some Armenian and could guess at its origin? Maybe they could figure out some of the Latin and knew it did not deal even much with medicine? Was perhaps Terpenec the source of the VM who got a “finder’s fee” from Rudy? Then his name was scraped off?
The dating as Nick indicates may well be 15C but then some odd things have to be explained. The unusual number of amperesands is one. Nick’s dating of the VM by the anagram on f28v is certainly ingenious. It could also be the Armenian initials for DAM using numbers for the first two glyphs (“4″ and”1”) and their upper case “U-like” glyph for the last. I would like it also to be a disguised date for the writing of the VM. The Armenians, as in all things, went their own way. Their year 1AD is calculated by them as year 552 in the Julian calendar. So 1475 as deduced by Nick would be 923 Armenian years. Nothing jumps out from these three floral glyphs as interpretable with the Armenian numbering system which would look like a large upper case loopy 2 (for 900), an h with a long left riser for 20 and “q” like glyph for 3. These would be Romanized as “jig”, If anyone spots this anywhere in the VM, the ‘jig” is up! Another strange thing on the last page of the VM is there is no evident “colophon” where the scribes would add some message about the effort it took them to make the vellum, to transcribe whatever it was they did and to curse anyone who fiddled with it. Instead we get the “michiton oladabas” stuff. BTW I think the “d” glyph that looks like a Greek delta is an unfinished “8” but that isn’t much help in understanding what is meant. Cheers,Tom
Thomas: it seems far more likely that a later owner (quite possibly Georg Baresch) erased Tepenec’s signature on f1r – this kind of stuff happens all the time, ain’t no big thang. 🙂 Note that even though I suggest 1457 and 1475 (Curse p.173) as possible readings for the shape on f28v, only 1457 (i.e. both digit pairs swapped) fits with the Averlino hypothesis. Hence 1457 is the correct date. 😉 I’m convinced that the final page has multiple owner contributions layered up – while the ink on the “ahia maria” section looks original, much of the rest looks emended to me. One day I’ll get to check that out properly… fingers crossed! 🙂
Nick, Thanks for correcting me on your interpretation of those glyphs on f28v and also supplying a likely explanation for the erasure of the name “Tepenec”. If Rudy had gotten the VM from Terpenec, it does seem unlikely he would return it to him. Maybe too embarrassed to ask for his ducats back?
Your comments on the writing on the last page are well taken. I wonder if a UV light has been used on that page? Would seem likely that Voynich would have done that in addition to the first page. Maybe a colophon was scraped off? Cheers,Tom
Dear all, Re those strange glyphs on f1r. I think that backward red 3 is the Arabic number for 1000 in their calendar system. The Arabs, like the Armenians, had their own numbering system using their alphabet and that backward 3 (usually now with a diacritical dot on top but evidently not in earlier times) stood for 1000.They also had their own calendar where their year 1 was equal to 622AD(Gregorian)..But things get a bit complicated because they used a lunar calendar which is 11 days shorter than the solar calendar used by the Julian and Gregorian calendars. That little glyph that looks like a “j” with the upper part tipped left could be their number 4. So another dating hypothesis is that the scribes began in the Arab year 1000 but finished 4 years later where the arab glyph for 4 is written below in their usual text ink. This would in the Gregorian calendar put the date as 1497 = hirji calendar 1004). This is a rough calculation. The Gregorian did not exist until 1585 when 10 days were subtracted from the Julian to make the vernal equinox line up again with various constellationsto reflix the date for Easter.
The Arabs also did not have a zero in their lettering system but started with 1, like the Armenians. It is certain that most learned Armenians knew Arabic well and used it a lot. Cheers, Tom
I’ve been cruising “the Med” for some material on early “seafarer/merchants” lingo: SABIR Fascinating! One particular mention really got my attention:
A novel written by Louis-Marie-Julien Viaud (pen-name Pierre Loti) in 1879, is a love-story/tragedy which could have included illustrations taken from the VMs: “Aziyade”
I’ll say no more, except to mention that the young man frolics with his lady friend and her attendants in the harem’s bath house…
🙂
Oops, the link:
https:pantherfile.uwm.edu/corre/www/franca/edition3/texts.html
Hope it works for you; first time I’ve seen the triple w in the middle of a link. Lemmeno one way or another…..thanx.
Dear all, My back of the envelope calculation for the year 1004 in the Arabic haji calendar was way off. I was using one known ratio of the year 2010 to an Arabic year but I knew it was likely way off as the Arab year is shorter by 11 days, Those 11 days add up. The link follows for islamic->, <-christian years:
http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html
This indicates 1004 is equal to 1595 AD (Gregorian). I think that the whole approach in trying to date the VM by this alleged arabic is faulty. It is very unlikely that vellum prepared in early or mid 15C is going to sit unused for 100 yrs or more. Rub out my post of Nov 8. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Another crack at dating the VM is based on the two glyphs at the lower right margin that appear as a stylized “s” with a diacritical at top and a “9” with a long tail. Using the Arabic dating with their alphabet that “s” glyph is our d and that is the arabic 800, the “9” is “s with a diacritical” which corresponds to 60. If that date is 860 in the Islamic calendar, this would be 1455 in the “Christian” calendar that would presumably still be the Julian. This is a more reasonable date but this could just be a fortuitous conincidence with what we are expecting. Cheers, Tom
Nick, ThomS, & enny1else still interested:
During my today’s armchair tour of the Sabir-speaking world, I came across a very interesting website which catalogued some very antique travelers’ reports/diaries of the 15th century.
“Venetian Renaissance Travellers to Persia, Muscovy,Africa and India”:
42. Manuzio, Antonio (1511-1559). [Barbaro, Giosafat (1413-1494); Contarini, Ambrogio (?-1499); Roncinotto, Luigi (no dates given); Ramberti, Beneditto (no dates given)
The catalogue discusses Barbaro’s voyages to Genoese colony Tana on the Sea of Azof (1436) and Persia (1471). Barbaro was diplomat, merchant, explorer, & travel writer.
Contarini, a Venetian diplomat/traveler (1473-77) to Persia, to visit Uzun Hasan. There is more to be read, but this is as far as I can go without some indication from y’all that y’all are even interested in these findings. Here’s the link (I hope it comes up blue):
http://www.wayfarer‘sbookshop.com/catalogues/2011OctoberRussianCatalogue.pdf Hmm, you may have to go with basic URL and plug in the particular catalogue info, starting with the first slash after the dotcom.
X your fingers!
beedee
Dear all, Re b’s comments about Pierre Loti of the French navy, reminds me of my little adventure in tracking down the little cafe/bar where he would meet his mistress to watch the sun go down over Istanbul. My daughter and I stoppen enroute for bread and cheese in a little overgrown graveyard on the uphill trek. As I was enjoying a Turkish Efes beer, a dapper little gent in a black suit accosted us and seemed very curious as to where I got the beer. I first thought I was desecrating the cemetary and offered to pour the remains out and put the empty in my pack but he said then in pretty passable English, to finish it; he just needed to know where I bought it. I still had the receipt from a little shop in the Sultanahmet area indicating our purchases and he then explained he had his eye on the cafe as it was not licensed to sell alcohol and I had somewhat set his mind at rest on that score. This morality cop then hit the upward trail and we followed liesurely. When we got there and were enjoying the view, each with a coke, there was an Indonesian film crew with a pampered leading actor being powdered and getting reflected light meter readings from his face. Evidently an Indonesian film was being planned on Pierre Loti and his mysterious end. He disappeared without a trace, likely after the mistress’s husband got wind of the affair. The view over the Golden Horn and Istanbul surpassed our expectations and was worth the mile or so hike from the last ferry stop on the Golden Horn. BTW, I suppose the moral to this whole thing is to save your receipts! Cheers, Tom
Dear All, Sometime ago Diane raised the issue of possible involvement of N. Africa in the creation of the VM, largely through trade routes I guess. If I understood one post, she had actually seen some ms at Timbuctu in Mali? Good timing as that library faces destruction by fanatic salafis. The Arabs of North Africa, from Egypt to Morrocco had their own variant of Arabic called Maghreb. It was older but is now replaced by Masriqi where the same characters are used (except one) but in a different order. The order is important in the use of characters for numbers. The Maghreb form would have led to a different date from that I proposed in my recent post based on f1r glyphs in lower rt margin.
I think the phrase “michiton….” has an arabic letter (the “o” with two little feet in the word following “ola8aba8” and that would be a Romanized “r” when the glyph is used in an internal (or medial) position.
I think that the “TOA” letters (f4r) in the leaf stem as spotted by Nick might also be Arabic. They might be read from bottom to top and with glyph tops at the right. Arabic like Hebrew is read from right to left. So the first glyph (at bottom) might be a medial “L” with maybe a faint dot at the top (resolution is not sufficient on my monitor to spot it, but it should have one) , the center glyph is “s” represented by “o” with that little dot atop it indicating it is “isolated”, (not medial as expected) and the top glyph is a phoneme of “h” and (final) this time. The arabic glyphs are a pretty good match for “LSH” but what this means is not clear at all. It does not make sense as a number. Nick’s analysis is more intellectually satisfying but that “A” never looked like an “A” to me; renaissance or not. Nor was it convincing that some critical letters for the “Antonio” anagram would be absent.
Could the VM be salted with enough arabic to fool a casual peruser? Or were Arabs involved in parts of the VM, like maybe drawing or tinting the herbal drawings? Cheers, Tom
ps..Check “arabic alphabet” in Wiki for a good discussion of various ordering of arabic glyphs and also the forms of each glyph for initial, medial final and isolated forms. What a complicated language!
Dear all, The Greek island of Lesbos was under the control of the Genoese from 1355 until the end of the 15C when the Turks grabbed it. It still offers spas and springs galore, among the hottest in Europe (70-90C), some pretty warm (45C), some cold. Many are mineral with various concentrations of chloride and sodium (evidently not simply sodium chloride) There are at least 6 in operation at the present time. In addition, one is private, one is for females only, one male only. Families can use the female one. There seems more emphasis on springs and baths in Lesvos than in the Crimea where Yalta was the main show. Some Lesvoian springs are river fed and as much as 60m above the sea. Evidently the springs even from Greek BC times were famous for some kind of soap but this needs more checking. Soap is a relatively new discovery needing animal fat and wood ashes to make. I just throw this into the bathing discussion. Cheers, Tom
To b, I did attempt to copy that link into my adress line but got a “site not available” message. Will try your recommendation as I would like to check the Tana connection. It was Venetian and Genoese at various times. I think it also had an Armenian population and would like to get the impression of an outsider as to what they were doing and whether one or more of the travelers visited any monasteries. Circles closing every day! Cheers, Tom
Dear Gents and Ladies,
Several months ago, on these pages, I mentioned that Professor Gates had made a film of his (lifelong dream) journey to Timbuctu. I had tried to contact him through his university offices as well as his Black History pages. I was unsuccessful. I do remember C.J. Bearden getting excited. Perhaps you, TomS or NickP, may have the means of communicating with Professor Gates? At the time I made my attempt to contact ProfG, I also was hoping that Diane might have the means/credentials to approach him. I didn’t really hear/see much more about it here on Nick’s pages. (?)
Ennyway, some of my web-cruising this morning is beginning to touch upon dinner-table etiquette: religion and politics are verboten subjects of discussion. So, I’ll keep my discoveries to myself, unless Nick otherwise indicates interest and invites open discussion. Fascinating, nevertheless!
Soap: A discussion I’ve carried on with another website for a Torah/Biblical reference:
Ashes of the red heifer and their use for ritual cleanliness in handling the dead for burial. Sacrifice the animal over a wood-fire and collect the fat drippings. Run water over the wood-ashes and then mix that liquid with the animal fat, and you have lye-soap.
One other item I discovered on one of the “bathing beauty” pages:
The ladies are knee-deep in water — and dancing! Allemande left and right around the ring…do-si-do…..
Health and fitness spa?
🙂
To b et al., The wayfarer’s books site was a wonderful link with unusual ms and books listed, many very pricey. I found their explorers list particularly useful and went immediately for Giosafat Barbaro where I got into Wiki for a good rundown on this guy. His book has been translated into English by the Hakluyt society and reading around about Richard Hakluyt was another eye opener. He was of Welsh background, an advisor to Eliz. I, but most importantly, from an American viewpoint, one of the founders of the Virginia company of London for which he obtained the charter in 1606. Anyway an earlier book, published in Italy includes the adventures of Marco Polo and also some King of Armenia. These books are all rare but there is an abstract of a chapter available online at the following link:
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/kerr/vol01chap19.html which is heavy on travel and not so much on observations of inhabitants. He is in Tana in 1436 as b has informed us and gets off into treasure hunting but dead ends at some ancient trash dump. Then off to Georgia, Cyprus, and Persia. Generally having the Turk in the way or other unfriendlies. Shot and wounded at least twice. Well I looked for an Armenian connection and they are there but peripheral, like having an Armenian guide in Persia. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, I should have pointed out what might be obvious to some but not all, and that is the N, African Mahgreb language and people enter Spain as the “Moors” and kick off the renaissance with such advances as perspective in art, advances in medicine and astronomy as well as water works big time as in Granada and Cordoba. Not difficult to postulate Moorish influence on the VM.
On table etiquette: Consider that Americans still eat with one hand like the Romans did. Americans never bought into the French idea that the unseen hand was up to mischief. A German friend of mine learned as a kid, that the Americans held a gun in the hidden hand! It is a hugely inefficient way to eat but there you have it. We share one- hand eating with all the Asians as well as the Arabs and may be in the world’s majority. Out in the weeds again. Cheers, Tom
In relevantly recent years there have been several videos produced about the plight of Timbuctu’s manuscript holdings. In the past several years, apparently, there has been a revival of interest in making T’mbctu a tourist venue. Also efforts are apparently ongoing to preserve as many mss as possible which are in the public domain. Apparently a good many manuscripts are in the private holdings of the long-term residents whose antecedents were medieval. That is a l-o-o-ong time ago!
As far as the michitonoladabababble goes: I still think Esther Molen’s translation was spot-on. An even earlier paraphrasing of said babble was done by A. Kircher in his preface to Mundus Subterraneus.
Am I being somewhat crabby this afternoon? Put it down as my “flunking” an on-line quiz of medieval European history! All the right answers, though, when it comes to dealing with the bubonic plague. Our USAmerican desert rodents carry a similar plague called hanta virus. Just recently, even our famous Yosemite National Park (California) recently had an outbreak (among the tent campers).
Oh! TomS & others, the link for wayfarers:
http://www.wayfarer'sbookshop.com
Hope it works this time! 🙂
More soap: Here in the USA, as far back as the 1200’s, our indigenous Southwesterner’s have used pulverized yucca root for soap/shampoo. Also, they still use sweat lodges followed by jumping into cold springs/lakes.We have a plant which grows in the margins of the creek at the back of our ranch property which is used for scrubbing ‘anything’ clean: horsetail rush.
Our local hot springs are so mineral laden that it is hard NOT to float while soaking. So, do you know more about Tana’s hot springs chemistry? Perhaps the mineral content of the waters in which the ladies are floating would explain their relaxed aspect.
Several months ago, I found myself cyber-visiting the hot springs near Naples — fascinating for its underwater statuary and other relics. Recently I discovered that not all Romans bathed; but rather oiled their bodies and then scraped themselves clean.
Dear all, In the unintended consequences dept.: When Gaddafi was deposed, Tauregs from southern Libya moved down into Mali and displaced the locals as they intended to set up an Islamic state. The US state dept is actively opposing them as they include some al Queda elements and were bent on destroying tombs and that library at Timbuctu. I think at the moment that things are in a standoff. The locals are beginning to fight back.
On Tana, no mention of bathing. Barbaro gets involved (1437) in trying to uncover the alleged tomb of some ancient Alan king with a team that included a mix of six Venetians and some Jews and 120 workers. Weather turned sour but by this time it was clear that the tomb was actually a trash midden. Alania was interesting in that its residents had largely converted from Judaism to Christianity in the 10C. In Georgia, on the other side of the Black Sea, he encounters people referred to as “proto Ossetians” in Mingrelia. He finds that in Kaffa (Caffa), greatly important as a source of salt, evidently from salty pools, some of the locals speak a variant of German. In general, Barbaro is a pretty judgmental observer and seems to focus on manners,how many horses can be raised and whether any good wines are produced. He considers the fortresses of Kaffa as being inferior, evidently to those of Italy. Kaffa is then in the province of Gazzaria, country of Kumania and seems under Tartar control. Not much mention of even what the Genoese are doing and not a thing about any Armenians. The locals had their own measuring system, used also in Tana. He finds, on his travels, that most meals are “disgusting”, eating for example, millet instead of bread and under cooked pork. Cheers, Tom
Oy Veh! Barbaro voyages to Tana just 100 years after the first appearance of bubonic plague from that location? Incredible! Even with the severe interruption in historical routes of communications, certainly there must have been some record made of plague’s impact on international/European affairs!
So, perhaps Barbaro wasn’t making “just” a casual visit?
On another “foot”-note: #4: “The ‘Ch’ is used in Italian orthography before e and i to indicate the letter ‘k’……..
(my note, bdid1r: The footnote I’m referring is taken from the link that TomS just recently visited and to which he referred the link)
Garble garble? “Turkey Day” (aka: Thanksgiving”) will soon be celebrated here in the US.
Enuff, already, with the awful puns/jokes/etc…….mutter mutter…
🙂
Dear all, I forgot to mention that the pools in Lesbos were highly prized as they were not sulfurous. I have seen, sans internet, some of the pools in the sulfaterra region of Naples and, as the name indicates, all are pretty malodorous. Putuoli (Pozzuoli) near Naples is where Paul came ashore in his fatal visit to Rome. That area is subject to the slow rise and fall of land (bradyschisms(sp?)) and a fine temple to Isis is now submerged by a meter or so.
The current Mars rover, “Curiosity”, is fitted with a laser beam spectrograph that can determine metal ions in a spot the size of a period. It would burn a tiny hole in the VM but maybe a similar device could be turned lose on the VM? Suggested first target: those red symbols rear the left margin of f1r. If no metal ions there, as mercuric ion from cinnibar, this might be the famous Armenian “red” from that worm? Cheers, Tom
ps. Maybe soap has been around longer than I thought. I wondered if maybe some nymphs had bars of soap rather than sponges?
To b et al, It did seem strange to me that the Columbia Univ link to Vol. 1, chap 19 of Barbaro’s book is so very heavily footnoted (38 in all), that we even get into linguistic fine points. Girosafat was no small potato and was on the Venetian council of electors who picked the Doge and was ambassador to Persia representing Venice. Oddly enough he is Venetian ambassador to Tana which was in the hands of the Genoese, but I think it had been bought recently from the Venetians. In the preface to the chap 19 of his travels, the eds point out that it is an abstract of that journey. I wonder how much has been condensed? The Hakylut society has translated the whole thing into English but that is an expensive book. Was done at the behest of one of the English kings.
Another idea for dating the writing of the VM occurred to me. It involves f52v which appears to have a dab of gesso on the right of the roots. If this could be shown to have covered a glitch in the vellum, it might be used for carbon dating as medieval gesso had egg white (glair),hide glue and often honey, all of which would have come from living things. It appears to have some cryptic glyph that looks sort of like an Arabic d (the initial form looks like a stylized “s” ) but tipped. I am guessing the initial refers to the scribe who made the repair. Gesso was used as step one for gold leaf work as well as a ground for painting. Cheers, Tom
Dear interested et al:
I’ve interrupted my txcription of the mushroom folio so I could take another “gander” at 78r. My Traupman’s dictionary yields some interesting definitions for various pictorial elements:
fistulae aquarius – water pipes
aqua salsa – salt water (oatelecaeg, Vms)
aquapluvialis – rain water-fresh water (Which appears to me, anyway as being filtered through some type of heating device). ?
aquagravidusam – water-logged (perhaps,also, a pun on gravid females?)
ollaso ae ae aes m – soaking (?)
Some fifteen or twenty years ago, I read somewhere that some mothers-to-be were considering mid-wifery assistance in delivering their babies into a warm saline bath.
Does not history repeat itself repetitively? Perhaps I’m having a spell of deja vu?
bdid1dr (who is down to reading with one-eye. Cataract surgery has been postponed indefinitely, and most of my traveling is via “arm-chair” viewing on the WWW. 😉
Nick, TomS: Not long after signing off from this page, I went looking for the origins of the word “halcyon” (I had previously encountered that word on VMs folio 86v3, the 4-sided mushroom discussion). I ended up on Michael Quinion’s fascinating website “World Wide Words”. I left a brief note on his email, referring him to Nick’s pages here. In the meantime, you might want to explore his fascinating pages, if you haven’t already “been there, done that”. For the time being I’m forging ahead on the “bathing beauties” folios and expect to wash up on the shores of the Black Sea/Tana. I’ll most likely be waving all of the bathing folios and mushroom folio to dry them out from my swim. (I’m a former competition swimmer and springboard/platform diver).
A tout a l’heure! 🙂
Dear all, In medieval Lesbos, ways of mixing hot and cold waters had been devised; Both cold and hot came out of the ground as well as mineral waters. The various baths were famous for relieving all manner of ills. I don’t imagine these baths were unique to Lesbos but they did have a lot of them and for 150 yrs or so were under Genoese control.
Genoese crossbow men were the best in the business. However the Brits with their long bows had a huge advantage over them in that they could remove their bow strings in rain whereas the crossbowmen could not. After the rain dissipated, the cross bows with water soaked strings were next to useless but the restrung long bows were good to go again. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, A complication has arisen in my attempted decrypt of f50v where five Italian words make more sense than Latin,although they derive from Latin. They are (after cipher substitutions): Rio (italian for stream or brook), poi (Italian for besides or afterwards), “reo” (Italian for “offender”derived from Latin “plaintiff”), nit (Italian for louse) and talis (such). Now I have to work with a few words where a vowel has been omitted.
The footnote b points out may help with some Italian words where ch occurs before i or e in a word, but ch I find usually at the end of a word. One ed of that piece on Barbaro refers to “vicious orthography” to describe words from this region of the Caucasus and that may sum up what is going on in the VM!
There is a version of Arabic used in Persia and that may be relevant to some arabic in the VM. It differs here and there from classic Maghreb arabic as in the “s” like symbol for Latin “k” and “g”. It still doesn’t explain the little”gesso” glyph on f52v.
In summary, so far just working with decrypting f50v, I find mainly Latin but often with “ch” word endings, some Italian and some English. Also what might be German in “och”. I think some Latin abbreviations are used like “af” (= as follows, or to the end). I conclude at this preliminary stage that after cipher substitutions, what results is not always conventional Latin but some “loan words” are mixed in. Word length is totally misleading and some vowels appear to be missing as in “tl,,,” and “tr…” words. One for example is “t(a)lach” and could be an anagram of “talc” but I hate to think we have that additional level of difficulty to contend with. Another decrypt “T(a)ruo” could be an anagram of “tauro” for bull? I have a sinking feeling that Mary d’I might be right. Cheers, Tom
I took another look at all of the bathing folios; they all lead to the fairy tale of Alcyone and Cyex. Basically, each of the horoscope pages (and women in buckets) lead to the mixing of waters in the “bathing” folios. Eventually, the storyteller wrote a one-page folio with his notes written on all four sides of the document. He was doing the best he could to warn against eating mushrooms with even mildly alcoholic drinks. The word/name Alcyone eventually devolved into halcyon, with derivations of hallucin, hallucination.
So, by doing a rough translation of the Water lily, water lotus, and mushroom pages, I think we can all give Nick some material for his sequel. At least I hope I’m not derailing his plans?
I’ve noticed at least one of the nymphs is holding a lily. Another woman holds a pomegranate. My printer is going dry with the color cartridge, so recently I’ve been transcribing faint pink/red drawings. Just checking to see if the scribes (at least two?) are depending on phonetic shorthand based on their native writing of latin terminology (which apparently depends quite heavily on Greek mythology, here in the VMs).
A tout a l’heure (French). What would be Italian for “cya later”? Many years ago, in the US, we used the expression
“See ya later alligator” — reply: “After while crocodile.”
Crocodile smile 🙂
Dear all, Barbaro comments on the use of Gothic German in the Crimea and there a can of worms is opened. Huge back and forth among scholars as to how long Gothic peoples were there and from whence they came and what happened to them. Very little written “German” survives. Max about 100 words.Best guesses are these tall,blond folks intermarry with various locals and end up speaking mainly Greek. Some convert to Moslem, many go the way of Greek orthodox. They overlap the Armenians but not clear whether they use their language although it is considered likely that they used arabic. Their Gothic language is dead as a doornail now but for an interesting piece of VM style arcane cave carving, see Wiki for “Crimean Goths”. Intermixed triangles with what looks to me like a crude cross added over what might have been a snake logo. Very strange in having 14 points created by the triangles. They were in Genoa controlled Cembalo and other Genoese territory but no mention of Caffa.
The German Nazis embraced the idea of these pure Aryans (whoa, they seemed totally a mix with about a half dozen other peoples which is why they disappear from history) and were planning a superhighway from Germany to their own “Gibraltar”.
I may dig some more on Crimean Goths but this does not look like any promising vein to mine and more like a dead end. The Crimean Gothic is very much like garden variety German, the few words that are known.These have been translated into Latin,e.g.bruder=frater. Cheers, Tom
TomS:
At the risk of appearing even more “babbly” than my usual rant, I want to back you up re the activities in the Crimea:
http://www.estherlederberg.com
If my attempt to link doesn’t work, do a search for this full reference:
Esther M. Zimmer Lederberg Memorial Website – European Colonies on the Black Sea
If you are successful in linking, you’ll find a great ref/biblio section also.
It is ALL about the Bosporus and Black Sea trade in slaves. Venetians and Genoese fortresses. There is even a little bit about the Azores in later centuries.
About a year ago, I was researching Henry the Navigator. An interesting item for me was that he never did any onboard-ship navigating. The Hakluyt Society is fantastic, provided one has the means/credentials to spark their interest or to reply. I was not able to obtain a response to my queries.
Gonna get my second cuppa (coffee) and read a fairly decent large-print novel. Most of the large-print books are trash!
bdid1dr 😉
Nick,
If you’re following the conversation, may I ask that when you print your sequel – make it large print? I’ll put my money to good use then.
Luv ur blog! bdid –who may no longer have to wonder!
And then there was the Treaty of Nymphaeum (1261ad)
Ancient baths @ Thermi (Lesvos Island, Miyilini) A photo of an interior of the baths: stone arches very much like the Vms folio of the arches beneath which the ladies are bathing.
So, back to the vegetable gardens where I’ve found some (so far?) unidentified specimens of what may be tropical fruit and veggies (besides coconuts and water lotus). Ciao!
🙂
The particular bath to which I earlier referred: Skala Thermi. Besides a newer facility, the ancient baths are still in use.The proprietors and local community apparently have plans for renovating the nearby Hotel Starlitza.
Because they claim that it once was the “divine spring of Artemis”, I shall be perusing the Vms folios for references to Artemis (besides Halcyon/Alcyone on the “mushroom”folios).
Later!
Dear all, The main problem with the VM and the Crimea is what appears to be the inclusion of some later European languages like what looks like fairly modern Italian and not the lingo of the Genoese. The Venetians had their own language also and that now is pretty much dead. Not the Genoese (Zeneize) which still exists here and there in Liguria. It has 8 vowels, 3 semi vowels and 20 consonants. The Latin decrypts generally work but there is English here and there (e.g. each, it, each) and modern Italian (e.g. on f50v,we find at the start of line 7, “ream” my decrypt that meant in Latin, “the plaintiff or the accused” but makes more sense in Italian as “the offender” and might be used in the context of some pest like “nit” at the start of the last line (=louse).Note the Italians just cut to the chase and find the plaintiff already as the offender, not alleged offender.
I like the Crimea also as a venue for the creation of the VM and Diane some time ago came at Kaffa from another direction. I am troubled though as to why the decrypt is done into Latin using a lot of loan words and why it wasn’t done totally in Armenian. If I can get any traction with Voynichers into accepting the source as being Armenian I think maybe some more rapid progress can be made on they “why” and “who” and maybe even “when” of the VM and we can either rule the Crimean in or out. Georgian has some similarities with Armenian in sharing many glyphs and maybe their alphabet is 100 yrs older? Check “Boygali”, one of the Georgian symbols on “Wiki”. A water wheel-like structure is used but has only 7 wings joining at the center, analogous to some of VM depictions that have 8 or 12. All for now. Cheers, Tom
For “b” and other Kaffa.Crimea aficienados: “B” provided a fine link to Ester’s blog on Google but what a change from the main link to micro-organisms, plasmids, DNA and the like.
Note that “merlon” is in the dictionary of the Crimean Genoese that she provides although I had looked hard some time ago at the remaining fortresses and could find none. I think all were either smashed apart, allowed to ruinate or were overpreserved.
Thie following could provide a rough timeline. These hardworking scribes are an offshoot of a Druidic Celt like organization (the Crimean Goths are considered by some to have a Celtic origin; now some still exist in the Ukraine). Phytochemistry, astrology/astronomy and those baths are a consuming interest. I am thinking though that any transcript that emerges on the herbal pages is going to be heavily into growing them and not much re using them. The use is embedded in the herb depictions. Then Kaffa, or whereever they are working in the Crimea, falls in 1475 to the Ottomans and the Genoese evacuate, taking with them the VM.
If an early 15C date is confirmed for the writing as well as the vellum preparation of the VM, 150 yrs elapse before it shows up in Bohemia and one wonders about its travels. Maybe, however, it did not leave the Crimea in the hands of Genoese or Armenians but was a spoil of war and ended in the hands of the Turks,where it would have been prized.
Christians when grabbing stuff from Moslems tended to level them so mosques, tombs etc did not survive a Christian conquest. Not so for the Moslems. When Ahmet II took Constantipole he preserved Hagia Sophia and other famous churches, just rebranding them as mosques. Ataturk with a stroke of genius later turned those into museums so they were out of the reach of either religion although the Islamic nose is getting back into the tent as Hagia Sophia’s minarets are used now in the call to prayer (but recordings). The awful Islamic calligraphy has been taken down and the Christian mosaics are being restored.
So the VM would have been likely have been handled with care and not consigned to fire or tossed overboard.
Anyway, for the deepest water, we need everyone at the oars. BTW in my last post I meant to include “leaf” as an English word and did not mean to repeat “each”. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Today’s little concern is why the English also looks pretty modern and not 15C? I have seen old English and this is for students of Beowolf and the like. My late wife had a manuscript company and she bought some unknown “Fairfax” family papers that had been pretty well picked overby dealers. Among the finds though was a puritan inquisition of Anglican churchmen from the Yorkshire area under a panel that was headed by Thomas Fairfax, grandfather of Lord Fairfax of VA, Washington’s patron. Although a general in Cromwell’s army, he broke with him over the execution of the English king. Anyway, this was in the English of the mid 17C but still took someone with some association with Romance languages to understand it. My wife was fluent in French which helped her figure it all out. The Bodlian library had a copy but called her about it (at 4 AM) to make sure she would send the original on approval to the Yorkshire historical society where it was purchased with alacrity. The point here is that maybe the English is sort of strange also in being like the Italian, fairly modern.
A decrypt observation. Word length is pretty arbitrary with endings being split off and “89” (=et) at the END of most words. The tipped question mark (an Armenian glyph translated into Roman as “ch” is always at the end of a word unless it stands in the middle of c-c. I am just assuming that the “ch” is needed for making sense of the Latin but it would be most useful in Bohemia where Huss added “ch” to the Latin used there and it would have been in use in the 14C (he was burned at the stake in 1415). Standard Latin has it also as in “orach” (=from the garden). Then why the backward “S” glyph. That looks similar to several arabic glyphs (Persian or Maghreb) and might have been left in for that purpose, along with all those “c” combinations and “9” that also occur in Arabic. The ligature-like gallows glyphs might also look sort of Arabic-like. I remain convinced that the isolated c is a null and that ccc is an e with one c as a null. The real “c” which is very common in Latin is the “4” glyph. Here the postulated Armenian scribes are deceptive in using 8 and 9 to represent e and t, respectively but not the 4, that represents nothing from their counting system, although the “early arabic number system” used a “backward 3” to equal number 4. In arabic as a letter, it would have been “th” but only normally used in isolation, not as part of a word. Cheers, Tom
I woke up this morning with a tune traveling through my mind: “In Hamelin town, long long ago, the people were happy no, no, no. The pretty little town was full of rats………….
I had earlier been pondering on why the plague traveled so rapidly from “one side of Europe to the other” — and re-cycled. Besides the unabated traders’ travels, I understand that many villagers were terrified of cats, and blamed them for the plague. Kill off the cats, and rats run amok, call in the Pied Piper….
Boy, you should see the research/footnotes/discussion that appeared in re the children’s disappearance and the similarity of town names across middle Europe. Fascinating. I plan to go back to take a look at Hamelin’s commemorative church window.
I’m also trying to find a coat of arms that might have a stylized pomegranate or palm leaf motif. One of the ladies I’ve already pointed out has a lily in her hand. Just about all of the folios numbering in the “70’s and into the “80”s are referencing various slave-trading powers (France/Italy/Spain).
I’ll catch up with y’all later. TomS, don’t lose heart!
bd 🙂
Dear all, Chios near the coast of Turkey at Izmir had a population of Armenians at one time and many were massacred by the Turks, evidently under Ataturk, during the horrible fighting of the early 1920s. Izmir (ancient Smyrna was a Greek city and they largely destroyed it before pulling out). Both Chios and Cesme (a suburb now of Izmir) had marvellous Genoese castles. The one in Cesme (14C) is immense with merlons but alas not swallow-tailed ones or none now anyway. The Venetians took it from the Genoese in the 17C destroying some of it but now it appears in pretty good shape. Cesme has baths galore. Note that both Lesbos and Chios are not far south of the Dardenelles, i.e. close to the Turkish mainland and not far at all from the Crimea. One guide book claims the Cesme castle was built in 1505 but that date might be wrong. I am inclined also to doubt that Ataturk massacred Armenians. He in fact gave back to the Greeks all but two islands that were retained to guard the Dardenelles. He allowed Greeks to remain in Istanbul in exchange for Turks remaining in Thrace (northern Greece). Ataturk was born in Salonika, Greece. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Some plague points. Two variants existed caused by bacteria carried by rat fleas, one causing haemorraging boils and the other a very rapid respiratory infection, which was more lethal.and more contagious. The hanta virus, not a bacterium) is carried by field mice, mainly in the western US.
I think the hypothesis as to the rapid decline in the bubonic plague in Europe that makes a lot of sense is that the Norway (grey) rat moved in as farm populations declined by 50% or so. The Norway rat was an outdoor rat and lived in burrows whereas the attic rat, considered to be the main plague vector, lived in close contact, chiefly attics, with people. When the Norway rat moved in, food became more difficult for the attic rat as foraging from human food scraps declined and outdoor food was now gotten only in competition with the Norway rat. Norway rat populations thrived as they were more skilled in living off the land. So it was good rat vs bad rat. Cheers, Tom
Nick,
Have I been monopolizing the “That Which…..” pages? Took me a while to figure the reconfigured layout. Ennyway, just so you know that I’ve finished a rough translation of folio 82v. It is a three-layered language cipher which writes about “Artemis/Diana and her shrine/hot water “spa” treatments for pregnant women and safer delivery. That strange looking barbed piece of wood was a “willow” that had been trimmed of its branches and was to become a part of the offering-flame/pyre. Your eyes and resources are considerably “in better shape” than mine. Although I was never able to complete my university medical studies (Nursing management), I’ve just recently been able to catch up with y’all. I think I’m going to give you a break for a while; but I am continuing to pursue and solve clues. The manuscript’s content is fascinating!
🙂
Dear all, One observation of several Voynichers that deserves more scrutiny is that the lead word in nearly every page of the herbal is unique to that page, or very nearly, and so may well be the name of the herb on that page. This uniqueness of that lead word looks real but has a few problems: 1) 59 of the 125 or so pages start with that “G” glyph (Mary d’I’s characterization, accepted by some as a discriptor only, but evidently by Sherwood as the substitution cipher). If the “G” words really are herb names in whatever language, likely Latin, that is a bunch and hard to explain It would imply that nearly half of herbs of the VM are of the same genus or share some common property. 2) The unique “G” glyph does not appear elsewhere on the page which is strange in that discussions of the herb would not use it again, as in a second paragraph? 3) It is not totally unique but words having the “G” glyph as the first character appears in pairs, four times in the herbal and are as follows:, f19r and 21r; 34r and 46r; 23r and 31r; and 54r and 55r. The “F” gallows (used as a descriptor by JB and others), is likewise a pretty common lead glyph in the herbal section, occurring on 23 herbal pages. Duplicate words using the “F” glyph as a lead character are 3v and 29v. I have scanned only partially the second (and more where occurring) paragraphs of the VM for unique words and there is some overlap but not much there either and yet these all differ from the top key lead words. What is going on here?
I think the “G” glyph is a “P” and the “F” glyph is an “L”. The partial decrypts of some of these “P” words are common Latin or Italian words for “then” or “later”; “can, “might, be possible to”; “peach”, “tail or penis” (vulgar Latin there!); “to purify”. These are sort of garden variety all purpose words but why did the scribes search hard for synonyms? Part of the code I am guessing. If the same word were repeated over and over, it could be a thin wedge used to crack the VM. We are dealing with royal, smart folks here. Before I can say with certainty that the additional paragraphs also start with unique words, I have to complete that tedious chore. There are a few repeats but not many. Statistically there are more chances for repeats as some pages have several paras, but looks like just a few. “P”s and “L”s also predominate. However a fair number of what I think are “R’s also show up as they do also in the top key words leading glyphs. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
ps. Next step? I would like to get JB or Nick to unleash some character recognition software with just a few test words at the start like “8a” words that could be “8ach” (each); “8af” (eaf for leaf with “l” omitted), “8am” (eam= pronoun “that”) and a few more real three-letter VM words. “8on” is a Latin suffix and would not be in the mix.
Thomas: I think it’s safe to say that any argument that involves a cipher where certain frequent letters never appear (I’ve seen a lot of these over the years!) or where the first letter on a page is almost always (say) P or L is almost certainly missing a very major trick. And that’s a key problem with more or less every suggested explanation for how Voynichese might work, a problem that no amount of character recognition software will ever overcome, I’m sorry to say.
Dear all, My daughter, an art conservator living in Florence, was here over the Thanksgiving holidays with her husband and my new grandson, Raffaele Dante Amideo, now 8 months old and having a US and Italian passport like his mom. She got me into the VM in the first place and we chatted a good deal about it. She has looked at a number of old ms and read about them and said that what troubled her most about the VM was that there are no obvious internal clues to date and place it like distinctive clothing (nearly everyone is nude so there goes that possibility), like religious iconography (just a couple of crosses that were obviously added later to the VM), hair styles (the ubiquitous braided hair), or water marks (the VM is vellum so that is ruled out; paper would have been handier). She thinks it is likely a medieval hoax and not all the arguments about parallel hatching, swallow tailed merlons, clock faces are likely to change her mind. I think Nick has recognized the possibility of a very clever hoax and has come up with as many arguments as humanly possible to disprove this. Is it even possible to drive a stake through the hoax possibility? Even if it could be proved that the red, for example, is the medieval Armenian red from that worm and could carbon date it, it still does not rule out medieval Armenian hoaxers; likewise that spot of gesso. Only if it could be shown that something textual does not fit, something really bogus, like many occurrences in the text of words of a modern origin for example, could we convince ourselves of some parallel universe of hoaxsters. I still remain convinced that it is for real but I have gotten sensitized I guess to gainsaying. Modern hoaxes like the Vineland map (skeptics said from the get go that no one knew at the alleged date of the map that Greenland was an island!; still Paul Mellon bought it. The Hitler diaries were full of inconsistancies.
Only with some decrypts might it be possible to argue that the VM is authentic. Then the bigger problems are likely to be 1) provenance; 2) where did it come from before Rudolph II has it and how and why was it so carefully copied by two scribes at least; 3) how and why does it end up at a villa used by Pope Gregory?. No colophon, no tell tale margins and compositional lines. In fact the arguments are good that there never were any such helps and the two scribes were hugely accomplished, making very few errors. The gigantic tome by Stone et al, has not a single example of any Armenian scribe’s work of a page or two that can compete with the care of the scribal work of the VM, much less more than 200 small pages. I think the lack of any religious iconography argues that it was not the product of any monastery where most of the examples of Stone et al. arise although he has a few that deal wth “science”, whatever that was. That page of the Codex Cumanicus shows the barely adequate work of a scribe or scribes hired by some Genoese merchants from Kaffa, Crimea. If that one page with the parrot was the best example of their work, it is greatly inferior to what the VM scribes could do.
Where is the original (a query raised by my daughter)? A palimsest somewhere? Like the Archimedes essay on flotation? I think Voynich might have been hoping for something like that in using a UV light on the first page but no reports on the back page or some of the odd things like the page with writing on 4 sides that “b” mentions. That sidewise writing might have been put in to deliberately obscure something else? Well, I don’t want to be a skunk at a garden party but there you have it. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
Nick, Your point is well taken and I may have gotten suckered by some old cipher trick.
But then why use for the herbal P’s: 19 different words that make sense for “pu” combinations;14 for “pi” combinations; 8 for “pu” words; 5 for “pe” and 2 for “pa” in addition to several that are “pt” combinations where I think a vowel has been deleted. These seem to be verbs or adverbs mainly but I am winging it on Latin. They all look like Latin but some are clearly Italian. If the trick is to make words that work in some fashion as medieval Latin or Italian, why go with so many combinations of words that do appear to be authentic? Maybe they will not pan out and just have been copied from some Latin grammar, willy nilly? I would have expected more nouns in the mix which did make me a bit suspicious. Cheers, Tom
Nick, TomS,
I’d like to refer you to a couple of medieval garden advisories (and maybe why “P” seems to preface a lot of the herbal sentences/paragraphs)
Palladius, “On Husbandry”
“Hortus Conclusus” (wikipedia has a neat presentation of this subject matter. Xpeshlly interesting to me was reference to various enclosed gardens of the 15th and 16th centuries, many in cloisters.
Both of above-mentioned “guides” have been very helpful in my triple-layered decipherment of the “squash” page, the “radiccio and cilantro” folio, the water lily, the water lotus folios, and finally the “biggies”: Mushroom (Halcyon/Alcion) and its deliquescence into the the stream that runs past the shrine to Artemis/Diana.
BTW: One of the ref I noted ends up at a Benedictine monastery. 🙂
TomS: Oh my, you have a daughter who has named her child after the names of some of the creators of beautiful works of art and literature of the Renaissance! How fortunate we are to have your contributions to Nick’s great forum!
Ask your daughter if she has a background in manuscript illustrations, expecially manuscripts which may have been commissioned by various nobles/royalty (similar to “Books of Hours”. I still have a hunch that Tepenecz may have been more than just a gardener or distiller — and not necessarilly for Rudolf, but rather for Rudolf’s parents. Rudolph, himself, was not-so-distantly related to the family which commissioned the very strange painting of the “Infanta”.
Just a hunch. Here’s a couple of other “Classic” stories/myths/iconry I’ve been following up: Artemis/Diana (check out the sculpture in Rome), Hecate, Caryatis (Carya), Aeginaea, Kourotrophos,…there is more but, this is the Wiki’s offering (which I still need to go back and get one more page:
“Laphria, a festival for Artemis in Patrai. The procession started by setting the logs of wood around the altar, each of them sixteen cubits long. (bd’s note: there is more to this one citation but my printer was going dry. If it seems worth looking into, I’m sure you all have much more “Wiki’ing experience than I !
I am, however, Xreffing folio 86v3 with 84r, and 82v — and continuing my rough translations. I’m also comparing various elements with the “herbal/gardening” folios.
Oh TomS, I hope your daughter is returning to Florence with a whole “look-up list” of artistic features to compare with “our” 15th century document. I’m off to “Wiki-Land” now.
Cyall later. Still 😉
Nick, TomS:
I sense that we are getting buried deeper into the webpages. I understand the need for Nick to do this. It is, however, getting more difficult to maintain the continuity of the discussion and our multiple references/transcriptions. So, I am focusing on doing a folio-by-folio decipherment/translation. I’ll probably be approaching our local private press sometime after New Year’s. TomS, I’m hoping you and your daughter may be able to continue contributing to these pages — fascinating!
A tout a l’heure! 😉
Dear all, I have been pondering the point raised by Nick in that the frequent occurrence (50 or so) of the “G” glyph in leading words of the herbal, suggests a code trick or even trap. In fact nearly all the leading words feature a gallows glyph, the most common being the “G” glyph, next (23 occurrences each) are the “F” (Currier) and “H” glyphs (first study group). I happen to think these are the “P”, “L” and “R” glyphs but that is irrelevant to the main problem and that is why nearly all are gallows glyphs, which is, I would admit, troubling. This can be observed most quickly in the character recognition program developed by JB.
This could be an indication that I have entered a quagmire but I advance a rather unconventional and maybe weak argument, that the start of the herbals uses some kind of formulaic expression, for example as found in medieval Christian notary journals where every page would commence with “in the name of God, Amen” or as found in legal docs “Comes the defendent before us”.
In the case of the herbals the first words might be some verb, gerund form, like “purifying, collecting, harvesting, growing, preparing, choosing, etc” and the second word is some adverb like “carefully, reliably, quickly, etc.” Furthermore, digging the hole deeper, it suggests that the gallows were deliberately picked to match the commonest Latin words and “P” looks reasonable in that regard. Nearly all the gallows lead words in the herbal are unique as has been observed by many I checked my old Stone tome to see if Armenian scribes had a tendency toward using a common lead word glyph in their writing in Armenian and I find in a commentary on “Lives of the Desert Fathers” enscribed in Kaffa, Crimea in 1430 that their glyph for Latin “e” occurs 7 times in 11 lead words. Most of the others are also words beginning with a vowel. Here the colon ( = Armenian period) can be used to mark sentence endings and beginnings.
I have found incidentally in early 17C Armenian that the ampersand is used at the start of a paragraph so that what follows is preceded by & (and) but I am not yet convinced it serves that purpose in the VM. I have “decrypted” the second word in the herbals and find many more matches than among the first words, but still not enough to postulate a commonly occurring adverb, All for the moment. Tom
ps. to “b”, my daughter just picked unusual first names for her boy and found Galileo too common. Raphael (Sanzio) the artist, ditto but Raffaele was uncommon enough to pass the test. Dante is fairly common with Dan as a nickname. Middle names are not common in Italian so that is a backup.
pps. I am utterly astonished at the decrypt of Tom O’Neil of just the second paragraph of f 20r, where a Christian Nativity sounding narrative emerges. BTW, Armenians claim the three wise men were, you guessed it, Armenian astronomers / astrologers. Maybe even kings! First query is what the hey is this accound doing on an herbal page and how can so many words emerge from so few? If “Aug area” refers to the known world of Augustus C., then a huge timeline problem also emerges!
Dear all, I am convinced that “c” is a null in the VM. It usually occurs with a pair of c’s like cc, c-c and c-c (with a curlicue above it). Sometimes in odd spots where it is just hard to accomodate into any reasonable Latin word. That very same page that O’Neil has worked on (20r, 3rd para;4th line) has “ori[c]t” followed by “orit” so that character “c” is null in the first word, maybe making the whole word a “null”? The many occurrences of “ii” at the apparent start of “words” which is rare in Latin suggests “i” could also be null but one has to be careful in that a use of “ii” internally is possible and correct word lengths have to be settled by trial and error.Throwing out extraneous “c’s” is much easier.
Redundancies: I think a number are seen in the VM to add confusion to code cracking. I think 8 = cc=e is one and c-c=”i”=i is another. The “a” and “o” glyphs seem a break to code crackers and I think are for their real uses in Latin, English or Italian. Note that occasionally “is” shows up and not the Latin “est”. Cheers, Tom
TomS and Nick,
If you have the wherewithal to access the works of Carolus Clusius, you might like to compare his illustration of “Nymphaea” which is a woodblock (which may have been water-colored). Check out the similarity of the root system — I remember TomS pondering on the root system of the waterlily drawing in the Vms.
What really turns me on is several mentions of his book on what we nowadays call mushrooms: This discussion is referenced as being in his publication, in 1601 Rariorum plantarum historia”. There are quite a few references to this volume of work, but no illustrations. Apparently the University of Leiden/Leyden currently has that tome in their library/collections. Another of Clusius’ publications cited on the wiki page was: “1557:Rembert Dodoens, Histoire des plantes:French translation from Dutch.
In the past I read somewhere that Rembert Dodoens was a botanist who worked with Habsburg royalty, including the Bohemian Emperors. (?) Surely, one or both of you have the facilities for investigating. Oh, I would love to see Clusius’ works, especially the mushroom pages!
Back to “my” mycology folio 86v3 (and its story of Alcyone and Ceyx). Actually several folios show that deliquescing mushroom pouring into the baths (folio 78r and folio 84r, and into the shrine of Artemis, folio 82v.
Time to sign off for a while. I’ll be b-a-a-ck!
TomS & Nick,
Sometimes those paired c’s are not c’s. If you see a pair with the link bar extending from the back of the second c, and then if you see a third c, what you are most likely “c” ing is the phonetic symbols for “c””e” (the “c” is a tiny bit larger than the “e”). If you see those same letter combinations with a drawn-out dash, and a “curlique” or an elaborate structure of long-legged “tl” or “ll” AND maybe even one of those elaborate “curlicued” “P” or , you are looking at words like “curlicue” and “coprin-a-cae-a-ceasam”. Syllables like “cur” would be spoken as if spelled “kur”. I’m seeing some exceptions as I write this note: The word “exception” is a great “example” of the use of the “ampersand/8”:
aes-k-m-pl. of aes-k-P-c-e-N. The name “Ceyx” is another example of the use of the Cyrillic capital “C”, which is the backward facing “question mark” followed by the “aes” figure 8 and the tiny figure 9: ?-8-9 So, how is the gentleman/male kingfisher’s name pronounced?
😉
Dear all, “b” may have a point that not all the third “c”s are nulls but arguing against that is that nowhere in the VM is there any indication of pronunciation unless it comes in with the alleged Armenian (that 8 is a short e, the tipped question mark is a ch). No diacritical marks but maybe some Latin letters could be used as phonemes as “b” suggests? I think though when “‘c” appears between two consonants that it is a null. We also have to consider that the VM was designed to be read (maybe teaching is a remote possibility?) and would not have use for pronunciation except maybe the ch is useful in Czech Latin, which also used “och” and “ach” that appears in the VM. So cc and 8 would, in my view, be pronunced differently and are not exactly redundant.
today’s really mini decrypt, in fact a “micro decrypt”, is the reverse “S” “9” combination (see f22r, line 4) where I think it is a Latin contraction for “sunt” which just stands for the verb “are”. “st” is the common contraction but a conscientious scribe (those of the VM never promised any such thing!) would have a wavy line above it to indicate common missing letters. Latin abounded with this. So what does this tell us. There are probably loads of contractions in the VM that we will have to force out by context or guesswork! I just lucked out on the “st” as I thought for awhile it was an abbrev. for “sat.” i.e. “saturated” as in a concentrated solution of something. But nope, it is another level of difficulty. What I found most useful was an 8thC Anglo Saxon-Latin dictionary that is at Leland Stanford Univ. library, originally at Corpus Christi Coll. at Cambridge. Loads of scribal tricks, like a large number of contractions, including “sunt” are given in a huge intro. Cheers, Tom
ps. “io” could be a Latin suffix but also Italian for “I”
pps. Here is a possibility that differs a lot from my original suspicion that the VM was in an Armenian code that was designed to be read as Latin, maybe a gemisch of Latin, Italian, German and Czech, but Latinish. Now I am thinking the original plaintext was Latinish and is put into an Armenian code. It might imply that the herbal section at least was originally without text and the text was added shortly after the delineator was finished with his herbal drawings and the original tinting. Then comes the text. This explains what many have noted and that is a lot of the lines do not “line up”. I think they will make sense eventually and do not contain a lot of nonsense words and repeats but this is still an open question.
TomS, I’m not saying that those small “c” characters are nulls. I’ve been trying “for ages” to explain what I see/read. I’ll do the best I can to use as little words as possible, here:
? = Cyrillic capital “C” before a “leading vowel”
S backwards = “R”
& = sibilant as in “Aesop”
c = c
tinier c = e
9 = guh or kuh sound, and maybe gum
tiny 9 = ecks X or ks
Just my “point of view” 🙂
bd
Dear all, Well “b” is into a cipher using substitutions and I agree that the VM is done this way although I do not agree at the moment with her substitution selections. I think there are Armenian fingerprints on this thing and the key is the use of “89” as “et” and in all cases “8=e” and “9=t”. The tipped question mark, the “4” and the reverse “S” are pretty much unique to the Armenian alphabet and I think are “ch”, “c” and “s”, respectively. The “o” is Armenian but tends to be replaced by “a” in the middle ages. Both are used but not at the same time as in the VM where I think they are simply “o” and “a”, respectively. The little decrypt of yesterday where the reverse S and 9 are a Latin contraction for the verb “are” (sunt) tends to argue that the reverse S is an S and the 9 is a “t”. The huge number of “4o…” words in the VM I think is compatible with those glyphs standing for “co” and that is very common in Latin. The other glyphs outside of those involving gallows and pairs of c’s are the m and n and I think are a break from the scribes and are just “m” and “n” in Latin and English. Some respectible words pop up in English that use VM glyphs, among them “8a(tipped ?)” for “each”, “ea(reverse &” for “eaf” where the “l” is omitted for “leaf”. Here and there “l” is at the end of the word preceeding the “eaf”. The Armenian glyph for “f” is a mirror image of & and both appear in the VM on many, but not all pages of the herbal. It does appear here and there as though they are used interchangeably to mark the end of a sentence. I think this misled Stone into thinking there were more examples of the “&” in his massive tome but there are mainly “f”s and not that many of those. There are still a surprising number of occurrences of “&” in the VM for a 15C ms. I think I have the gallows figured out but am less confident on those three double “c” combinations. I tend not to think any are “c”s, either letters or phonemes.
It does seem an empirical rule that the combinations that I think are pronouns “8am”, “8an” usually stand alone and there are loads of them; occasionally those three glyphs are seen at the end of a word. I think isolating them might be done to avoid confusion with Latin word endings. Some common Latin words “ut” (= c-c (curlicue)9) for “as”, “an” (=a-inverted gamma)= an in Latin, “is” (=c-c-[c] reverse S) where the bracketed c is a null for “is”in English. Well as my daughter observed, these are all short words, wake me when you have something more substantial! Now I am getting into abbreviated medieval Latin and golly is that complicated. “sunt” was just one of many contractions. There are loads of truncations also, like Aug for Augustus. I think the VM has a lot of both kinds without any helpful clues like a macron. The many abbreviations that I think exist in the VM might mean this thing was designed with contemporary scribes as the intended reader or maybe the compositional scribes themselves, but “away from spying eyes”!. Some abbreviation symbols are really cryptic. I think one is on 25v line 7 where a little c superscript exists between “c-c o reverse S”. Another is top line of 22v where “4o8” has a small circle over the “o”. This might imply that the abbreviation is uncommon enough so that a hint has to be given; no such luck though I am guessing with many others. Many examples of “reverse S-9) exist in the VM, sometimes two on a page (f25r). Both scribes use it but I am not getting into a frequency check at the moment. If they are working from the same Latinate plaintext, we won’t see any difference. My cipher substitutions seem to be working BUT maybe a brick wall is looming. Am still trying to make sense of the & in this thing. With 89 (=et), already doing service, why complicate things unless that is precisely the gimmick being used. Draw attention away from the “89”s? Now into the abbreviation thicket. Cheers, Tom
Additional remarks:
backward facing straight-legged p which leg extends below line of script, equals the sound of qu or kw — example using the script style you are now viewing: qll = quell (as in to quell the riots in Rome for the wheat ration)
Sometimes, depending on which scribe, the character I just described looks more like a number 4 which leg extends below the line — it still represents the kw sound as in quarto.
Tom: you’re moving into territory that I know very well (and which I also think makes up a large part of the VMs’ cipher system) – Latin abbreviation.
The main thing to note is that 15th century (early modern) scribal contractions and truncations are completely different from classical Latin (Tironian) shorthand (or even that remnant of Tironian shorthand still used in the medieval world): and I think that what we’re looking at is text that has been compressed down (with 15th century scribal shorthand) and then expanded out (with a partly verbose cipher), thus keeping the overall word sizes very similar. That is, I’m pretty sure it’s a verbosely expanded shorthand, if that’s not too paradoxical for you.
The 4o on f22v is an interesting one, there’s another on f1v para 2 line 3 and another on f2r para 2 line 3. I suspect that some of these are where ‘4o’ would be followed by ‘o’ and so the second ‘o’ is abbreviated. A bit of a giveaway, so the encipherer stopped using it quickly! (f22 is hence probably bound out of sequence).
Nick, I realized that you had gotten into Latin abbreviations some time ago and you had picked up on some scribal tricks as your recognizing that “9”s could be used to abbreviate word endings and beginnings. On f50r ,line 6 one even finds a scribal indication (that closed parenthesis mark in the second word) that indicates missing letters. Even the choice of what marks are used has been well studied. We are really getting into a thicket here! Oddly enough I found “ST” in the intro of some Anglo Saxon dictionary but I do not find it in a Capelli’s book devoted to medieval Latin abbreviations. I plan on digging into this a bit more as I totally agree that the VM is using a lot of abbreviations and that all those “ST”s are likely accompanied by other two or three letter abbreviations. Maybe in fact the Latin used can be deduced from what abbreviations are used? Like “ST” not showing up in Italian Latin of the middle ages and yet appearing in some 8thC Anglo Saxon dictionary? It may be just an oversight in the Capielli book (The Elements of Abbreviation in Medieval Latin Paleography) (trans. Heimann and Kay, Univ of KS, 1982) but that also included a lot of abbreviations from Latin as used by Germans. Even the marks indicating insertions or deletions are evidently time and place specific. Some, for example, were only used by the Vatican. Well you know all this but maybe some reading these posts do not.
I am surprised at the work still going on with word lengths when folks like JB figured out long ago that word lengths are just arbitrary and even without abbreviations, words have been taken apart and separate words have been merged. I think, but have not completely convinced myself,that pronouns haven’t been tampered with.
Nick, your comments on the “4o” occurrences with the scribal line over them or an indication like that little circle on f22v are indeed well taken in that, as you point out, such scribal assists disappear almost immediately (assuming f22v was originally bound closer to the start). Interesting point and maybe this indicates that the starting plaintext either did not have abbreviations, or did and then these got suppressed as giving the uninitiated too much help. Still the basic code remains to be tackled. So when the starting word is in code and then truncated or contracted, this is really piling on difficulty. What is the point here? I have a suspicion that the whole VM is just some rambling botanical or plumbing discussion and not at the level of “state secrets”! Cheers, Tom
TomS, & all,
I ran out of time to type; here’s one more offering: &9 , the ending of many Latinized words such as Clusius-sum or nymph-ae-cae-sum’
It also appears to me that THAT concluding syllable also often appears at the end of a label,phrase/sentence/paragraph, as much as to say “end of statement” &9
🙂
Nick, the first line of f23r also has an indication of a letter or letters missing in the “9-9” word.I have also found ST in another work on scribal abbreviations (Wiki) that was used in Italy so Cappelli just missed that one or it is not in the common lists that appear in the English translation. I see among other problems a big one and that is a word like “it” that appears a lot in the VM (“c-c [c]9”) can be either English “it” or Latin “item”. No simple solutions evidently lie ahead. Cheers, Tom
TomS & Nick,
A couple of phrases/terminology I had to use while doing records research/management:
res ipsa loquitur “let the evidence speak for itself”.
subpoena duces tecum “bring the evidence with you”
I’ll skip the part of my medico-legal education which required learning a lot of mixed Latin-Greek terminology and abbreviations. Several months ago Nick and I rattled off the mnemonic for learning the nerves of the head. “On Old Olympus Tiny Tops a ………………..Who knows, I might even come across that same memorization clue in Dodoen’s or Clusius’ printed works:
Still squinting, though I am now scheduled for the preliminary exam for cataract surgery in the only eye with which I can read… 😉
To “b”, Best of luck in that cataract surgery. I have had friends undergo it and it is pretty much an outpatient thing with a 98% success rate. I have a friend who had to have a cloudy lens removed to get at his retina which had a wrinkle in it. The surgeon lifted the retina off and laid it back on flat and things now no longer had wavy lines with that eye. I think we will live to see retinal transplants as the eye is a pretty much closed system and anti rejection substances can be just shot into the eye periodically to prevent rejection. Works in animals.
Well, I think there may be a few more scribal clues as to deleted letters and I think one is on f39r, line 10 end word where a “nineish” symbol, like a closed parenthesis is seen. Another oddness is seen on f25v,line 6 where a “c” superscript occurs before the backward S in one word. On f38v, we find an isolated “2” just sitting on line 7. I seem to recall it is used in scribal notation but the use slips my mind at the moment. On f24r, there is either some scribal exuberance in a flourish on the end word of the second line from the bottom or the scribe is giving us a macron gift. I have found other examples of super flourishes but that one is the best. Maybe there is an additional VM gimmick in the use of “embedded macrons”? Frankly I hope so as code crackers need all the help possible. Cheers, Tom
TomS,
Prelude to my reading of the “9….9” :
A couple of mystery characters can be implied to insert between the “9”s:
a character which looks like a barbed fish-hook:
hook with one barb = n
hook with two barbs = m
Line those “fish-hooks up with various dipthongs and one can get words (depending on sentence context) such words as going, coming, communing, completing, conning….
.:)
Well, TomS, Nick,
This morning I found a pdf (issued by Leiden Univ.) which discusses Clusius, in some depth (one item referred to a dried plant specimen from Egypt which was sent to him by a mariner friend.
The same pdf discusses Clusius designing/planting the gardens of the castle Rudolph II inherited upon his father’s death. Rudolph didn’t like the garden, dismissed Clusius, and turned the gardens into his “zoo” and stables.
So, if you are interested in viewing the document, here’s as much of a reference as I can give (it may even come up as a link:
Dieses Buch ist Teil von http://www.biolib.de
der virtuellen biologischen Fachbibliothek…
Whether it comes up as a blue link we’ll see.
Nick, et al., I think you have spotted a key in the decrypting of the VM. It is loaded with scribal notation,particularly truncations. Note for example, line 6,f50r where, in “word 2” the swirly backward “s” is made in two parts, the “c” (could be a null, with the next c counted) and the close paren “)” a standard medieval scribal notation of trucation.These occur on nearly every page of the VM and can be distinguished from the swirly backward “S” (that is S I think in the VM), in that the real ones are done in one pen stroke.The tiny superscript “9” occurs many times also, f40v (one line up from last) and f52r, line 7. Dots above characters are common, e.g. f49r, over m in line 5; and in f52v. I think we might get some help here but then the key question arises! Why make such an effort to conceal the notations for deletions (either macrons or truncations) when the VM is already coded. I think, in addition to ST (=sunt=are), we have “eaf” (=leaf) and “rt” (=root). Many words that emerge from my decrypts are English! Like 9..inverted gamma on f34r top line which might be “ten”, line 2 might be using i.e. On f49r, we find 4..o where a 0 superscript is between the two glyphs. Some English words are f48v, line 4 (9-gallows-cc= tree) and a most ususual one is f51r line 4 from bottom, where 9occ-backward s occurs and spells “toes” that I think refers to the bite of the stag beetle depicted in the leaves of that plant. That is a known biter and the leaves even indicate the beetle’s spine. Back to why conceal the scribal notation? The scribes themselves presumably would not need it but they might be planned for “initiates”, who would get hints. I am guessing that the usual reader of Latin is going to miss most of the cryptic notations. The VM is larded however with standard notations, again I think to deceive even careful readers that a lot more are there but hidden. I think that backward swirly “s” that is used as scribal notation in medieval abbreviations, has additional applications in the VM, mainly truncations but not necessarily addition of “us”, “is” to words. The lower case i with a dot is used for “ut” and it does occur in the VM e.g. f44vm line 1; f50r line 8. However I think many simple “i” with no dot is a null and c-c stands for i. All for the moment. Just to reiterate: Nick is 100% correct I think in spotting the use of scribal notation. Much is authentic medieval notation but some seems idiosyncratic to the VM scribes. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, The case for Czech Latin is as follows: the letters “Q” and “W” are only used by Czechs for foreign words and not for the usual Latin of the Roman world. The CH glyph (represented in Armenian by the tipped question mark) usually occurs at the end of a word and is an abbreviation for “c” with that diacritical “v”above it,stil used in the Czech republic. I seem not to need Q and W in the decryption letter substitutions I have worked out. The absence of Q seemed a “non-starter” for classical Latin where “q” is common. But it would not be used much, if at all, in Czech Latin.
So a creation scenario for the VM is a plaintext in Czech Latin with conventional and non orthodox abbreviations being next used and then using some Armenian glyphs for particular uses like the backward “S” to disguise the truncation symbol and serve for “s”, the “tipped”?”” for “ch”, the “4” for “c” and the mirror image of & as “f”, and crucially, the “8” and “9” for “e” and “t”. After adding these Armenian glyphs, the cipher substitutions are done and the words are mostly taken apart and put together in odd ways. The “&” still has me baffled and I think it is in the VM mainly as scribal notation. The Armenians did not use it much until ca. 200 yrs after the vellum date. It evidently showed up in scribal notation before it was used in Latin cursive but I will have to find some 15C Latin and check this to be sure. I think all the “c”s . some odd diacritical marks that look like macrons but just indicate “u” , the gallows glyphs, the loopy “s” and tipped “?” are put in with an additional benefit in making the VM look arabic. There are 3 forms of “i”, the i without the dot,(like the ink saving practise of some duchess or whatever),cited by Nick and the c-c glyph. The undotted i is a null, I think as are c’s in odd numbered strings of c’s. Anyway Czech Latin also included German as Bohemia was under the German speaking Habsburgs at one time. See f45r line 4 for “inverted gamma, a-tipped”?”9″ (=nacht=night). So maybe the possibility exists that the VM is made “on the spot” with Rudy II in mind? Cheers, Tom
Folks: Here’s another fabulous offering from the medieval Dutch. It is handwritten, hand illustrated and colored, and written in a beautiful “hand” by “anonymous”.
I don’t know if this document will come up in link form, but I feel strongly that it is related to Vms somehow. For example, a possibility that Rudolph II, himself, may have had to improve his writing/drawing skills by copying the illustrations and scribal content of this particular manuscript (and translate into latin/czech at the same time):
Flowers and Cruydeboek, Manuscript (1554)
caliban.mpg.de/anon/high/IMG8976.html
Hope it works; fascinating and tantalizing to this decipherer, at least!
🙂
For “b”, Recall that Rudy does not have the VM until 1606. So he would have been writing (practising!) on nearly 200 yr old vellum.
I am grateful for your digging on Clusius and indirectly his friend Josephus Scaliger next to whom he is buried in a Leiden church. Both were great botonists but were born in 1526 and 154o, respectively. Well, I remain open to the idea that we have not really pinned down when the ink was added to the VM but a gap of 100 yrs even from the vellum date seems unlikely. Still reading about these guys was informative. Cheers, Tom
The Boenicke library identifies the Vms as being “parchment”. We have recently been given a tentative manufacturing date of the parchment/vellum as being made in the last quarter of the 15th century. As far as I have been able to determine, the vellum could have been in scribal storage of several generations of Rudolph II (and Rudolph’s brother Matthias) parents and generations of Habsburg intermarriages of Spain and Portugal.
In particular, there is historical mention of Phillip II’s extensive holdings, and the Benedictine monks who were teachers/scribes at Phillip II’s court.
I can’t begin to lay out the intermarriages of the Hapsburg noble families, except to say that there are quite a few physical and mental “anomalies” throughout many generations and many countries/domains.
I still think current-day researchers need to put aside the “guesswork/rumors” of Roger Bacon and John Dee.
The major interruptions of European history (plague and warfare) “go way back” and are unfortunately ongoing. My favorite expressions still are “Necessity is the mother of invention.” and “History is the daughter of time”.
To b: On the history front. The Habsburgs ran out of royals as the last king, Carlos was unable to father any offspring and had to eat through a straw as his jaw was malformed. The Spanish tried to pass on the head of the Holy Roman Empire to a French cousin and all hell broke loose with the start of the War of the Spanish Succession which gave the Brits under Wellington valuable training in Spain to go against the French and eventually led to rolling up Napoleon.
Well, reading around on Rudy, he took on the Turks over and over and acquitted himself well. But he proved a nutter in the end and had to be put in an asylum.
The key question does remain and that is when was the ink added, both text and drawings. Most assume the drawings came first which is totally reasonable and then the coded text is added. I think the vellum dates determined twice by C-14 dating were more toward the front to middle of the 15C and not toward the end? I might have just mis-remembered this critical fact? Anyway, royalty could have sat on this vellum (or parchment?) for any length of time at their pleasure and maybe a 17C date for enscription is possible? But some things could still be done on the vellum that would not involve removing much and that is : DNA to indicate the animal(s) used: goat, lamb or veal? The Armenians prefered stillborn animals, particularly goats, I like the idea of microscopic analysis for pollen and maybe scribal hand oils or are these guys using gloves? Maybe fibres remain?
In the absence of any more hands-on work on the VM, we have to go with “the evidence before us”. I will continue looking for textual clues, like when the ampersand appears as a scribal abbreviation. The two strange leading glyphs f55r, 2nd para,line 2, that look like a tipped “7” under a macron are also unusual, not common from what I can tell as a scribal abbreviation. It could also be “7”and a “c” back to back with the c as a null? Cheers, Tom
Dear all, A German philologist Ludwig Traube (Univ of Munich in late 19C) claimed that Latin texts can be dated by the abbreviations used. His 3 volumes on Latin however are all oop and very expensive.
I think the VM has some but not a lot of Tironian notes (like the reverse 3 on f53v;3 lines from bottom, stood for “and”). Tironian notes did not use & but instead “et”. Tironian notes got totally out of hand by the 15thC and their use began to dwindle. The notes at their peak were 13-14,000 in number and so many were used in some Latin histories of the royals of Scotland that no one has yet deciphered them. Nick, here is your next project! Anyway, I think the inclusion of a few Tironian notes in the VM argues for a 15C date and not later when they would have been abandoned totally. Tiro was secretary to Cicero and the notes were his shorthand for keeping a record of his speeches. Now I will resume hunting for these; Nick has already commented on them being in the VM but I think there might be a few more, just in the herbal. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, A 15C Benedictine abbot of Sponheim in Germany uncovered a psalm in Tironian notation and figured it out; it was thought, interestingly (to me anyway), to have been in Armenian. Tironian notation was then rare, particularly as it had been banned by emperor Justinian in 534 and avoided by the church as akin to witchcraft. Well it was another churchman, Becket in the 12th C who brought it back and the Protestants took to it. The Tironian vowels resemble that “Dorabella” cipher or has everyone concluded that and moved on? I lost the link there. From the Table in Wiki, I have to conclude that there is not very much Tironian notation in the VM. But there is some. On f54v 3 lines from bottom at the end of a word is an “o-linked to a phi like symbol” that together meant “omnia”. “Ed” is a delta; it might be in that michiton thing at the end of the VM?
We might get some help from Tironian notation but not as much as I had hoped. I know that the Tironian symbol for the syllable “ut” appears in the astronomy section along with some others. I think Nick has been over the same ground so nothing new here. Tironian is pretty moribund by the 16C but not completely so and the VM scribes, ever alert to importing difficulties for VM transcribers, are into it. Maybe they are just old duffers still hanging on to the old ways? Cheers, Tom
I’m still trying to align persons, places, periods and perhaps, here and there, coinciding histories: I THINK Dodoens was earliest, and from whom Clusius received much instruction. Or was it Rondelet? Nick has an interesting link on his home page/title-page (the green castle logo) “Rondelet by Kingsley”. Fascinating and heart-breaking!
Yesterday I found a wiki about manuscript production. One item in particular caught my eye:
It was the very elaborate “flourished” initial “L”. The reason it caught my eye was that the form of the “flourish” very much resembled a “cipher” in the Vms: a large capital “V” (wing-shaped). Several months ago Rene Zandbergen (and I think Nick and Jim Reed) were not able make an EVA for it.
Because it looked to me as a symbol for how to bind a collection of folios, I commented on this on Rene’s email. I doubt he ever received my note. Yesterday, I found an elaborately “flourished” initial letter “L” on illuminated manuscript which had been, perhaps, produced collaboratively. So, to my eyes anyway, that strange V cipher was instructions to the scribes/illustrators where to create an elaborate flourish on the intitial letter of a word beginning an important discussion or a noble name…….
I sincerely wish there were some way we could connect with Rene. I have so much positive feedback to give to him. His research documentation is meticulous.
So, y’all might be able to bring up the same wiki if you plug in the search for medieval manuscript production and illumination. ?
Dear all, I think that trying to date the VM by Tironian notes or other scribal abbreviations might be difficult if not impossible. There are more in the VM than I first thought: A classic is on f65v on the first glyph of para 2. I think embedded macrons are very common like line 2 of f65v. I think all the gallows with an extension are embedded macrons, e.g. f90r, 1st line, 3rd word.. Well, I think this is just to be expected as macrons themselves are frequently absent as in “9-reverseS” (=ST =sunt=are) and maybe many occurrences of “telephone pole gallows-9” = rt=root in English. I think the scribes have taken some classic Tironian notes like the “7” and reversed “7” and combined them to make the inverted V with maybe a macron above it, (e.g. f55r 2nd para, line 2).
Well, Houston, I think we have a problem in that the Latin used in the VM is maybe 200 yrs earlier than the vellum date. Medieval Latin was pretty much moribund at the time of Dante (early 14C) as Latin underwent a revival and became Renaissance Latin which avoided nearly all scribal notation. Yet the VM has a lot of scribal abbreviations, Tironian and idiosyncratic. So are we to conclude 1) the VM is a copy of a much earlier work that used true medieval Latin? or 2) just adding another level of difficulty for the VM decryptor. I realize the first possibility opens up again the possibility that Bacon or a contemporary might have written the VM but I really doubt that. Bacon was a devout churchman and the lack of authentic Christian iconography seems to make his authorship unlikely, much less all the bathing beauties. I think the VM scribes are just adding another layer to the onion. Well some macrons and things like f93v line 7, (that left paren over what I think is a null c could indicate truncation ) may help a bit but at this stage I think we have to assume that many words have omitted letters either within or at the end and have no hints at all. If the embedded macrons like f94r, 3rd line, indicate missing m or n, as many did in Tiro’s notes, then we have some help. I think many examples of the “G” gallows have an extra long scribal flourish and indicate macrons. This is going to be a judgement call as we might just be observing some scribal exhuberance in some cases.
BTW. Thanks much to Nick’s countrymen like the Who, Stones, Clapton etc who helped mightily with the benefit for Hurricane Sandy. As Mick Jagger remarked, maybe the Yanks will help us the next time we have a heavy rain in London! Cheers, Tom
Tom: you’re approaching a key point I’ve been making for the last eight or so years – that even though Voynichese has its physical origin in the 15th century, the letters in its appropriated alphabet speak more of the mid-thirteenth century to the mid-fourteenth century, and assembled in an apparently haphazard manner, too. It was certainly designed to look old, particularly with things like the medieval page references (aiiv, aiir, etc), never mind the Tironian notae hangovers (9-, -9) and possibly fourteenth century legal shorthand (4o). Yet in none of these cases does the usage sensibly mimic the source shape’s original usage.
If you accept Voynichese is a cipher, then all of this can easily make sense: that it was a cipher system designed to resemble an unknown archaic language. But if you don’t accept that, I’m pretty sure you’ll tie yourself in terrible, sustained knots trying to explain any single one of the resemblances in terms of linguistic structure, never mind explain all of them at once. But it’s your choice, your angle, your take: as de man say, do what thou wilt. 🙂
Gentlemen,
F 86v3 excerpts: Latin retelling of a Greek legend/myth.
Halleus aescinicaesum Aescpleusaesum ram os ——
Another Latinized Greek word/name:
Aesaxos : Ceyx-ycis King of Trachis (Trachinus) Changed into a bird (kingfisher)
Kingfishers make their nests on water.
bd id 1 dr 😉
The excerpts I just offered were the results of many hours of consulting my Latin dictionary. Since then, I found a great source of the legend:
GCSE Latin: Ovid: Alcyone fears for her husband, Ceyx who has to go on a journey
The website URL is:
cyro.cs-territories.com/ovidalcyoneandceyx.
This particular website (maybe if you write the full URL) has full discourse and references to historic/antiquity names and places. All of which I was immediately able to apply to my transcription of the story in folio 86v3 (my “mushroom/coprinacae” page).
bd id 1dr
Nick, I guess I am in for some knot tying as I do think it is a cipher substitution code. I think the little “9” superscripts and the right paren sign (mixed in with null c’s) and other embedded macrons were mostly Tironian BUT I think ALL “8”s and “9”s are invariant letters, “e” and “t” respectively and are found in the Armenian counting system, which like Arabic, uses letters. Armenian glyphs are used but assigned new Latin (Roman) letters, not Armenian ones or even the Latin equivalents used by Armenians. 4=c; inverted gamma (not Arm) =n; tipped question mark=ch, the backward S=S; the mirrored &=f (that is original Armenian, but rare and only from the 13thC onward. The real “&” is common and here remains a problem. It does not fit medieval Latin at all, where “et” continued to be used. It does not fit Armenian either. I realize also that the scribes are not perfect at all and the loopy backward S’s are often made in two strokes (why I cannot figure out at the moment as I don’t think they are all concealed right parens abbreviation marks but a lot are. Many are made in one stroke and this is such an easy one(compared to the gallows, to the “f” glyph and others, that I am baffled by this inconsistency. The abundance of “ch” (that tipped “?”) suggests Czech Latin to me, although Latin, old or new also used it as in the word “orach” (=from the garden). Many English words pop out (each, is, leaf, ten, not, run, such) and this is really puzzling. Some German and maybe Italian but that would not have been uncommon in Bohemia. I imagine that the final acid test is going to be a complete decrypt of at least one herbal page but now recognizing the “omitted macron” or “embedded macron”, I have to redo my first attempts. Ever hopeful, Tom
ps. If I have ignored your speculation on maybe deliberately making the VM appear more archaic than it is, I apologize for not crediting your ideas. Early on I decided to approach things from an Armenian standpoint, mainly from the sophisticated astronomy. the unusal zodiac symbols, the evident naming of every day, etc.I did not spend much time on underlying arguments that were then going on.
Dear all, Oops. I meant “reverse loopy S-9” for ST (= Sunt). I also maybe misunderstood Nick in that I would not consider Armenian “an unknown archaic language” . Some glyphs are but some are characteristically Armenian but the VMscribes do sometimes use upper case mixed with lower case and he VM uses both a and o at the same time which Armenians never did. The weird symbol for “f” (looks like part of a treble clef signature), the 4, c, tipped?, loopy backward S are all telltale Armenian glyphs. Some also appear in Georgian or Albanian (Black sea country, not Balkan). So in this regard, I don’t think it is any unknown language. However with the gallows, the various c-c combinations and the inverted gamma, we have new glyphs, unknown to the Armenians or anyone else for that matter. I think the gallows were designed to look like ligatures and a huge number of expensive books have been written on Armenian ligatures but also books on Armenian codes (I never did get the Abrahhaman book) but a common trick of theirs was to use two letters to represent one and I think that is going on in the VM. So each gallows glyph is not two letters as would be expected with a ligature but one only. I think these are the consonants p,h,r,l in declining complexity and c-c with a curlicue is “u”.just joined is “i” and c c alone, just e (redundant with 8). Extra c’s are null. Well I think there is enough Armenian left in this thing to postulate Armenian fingerprints but I would admit the rest is made up. Cheers, Tom
Dang! For weeks, now, I’ve been referring to my “mushroom” folio as 86v3 –wrongly. PLEASE refer to folio 86recto3) for all relevant posts. Part of my confusion was caused by Boenicke’s numbering and my faulty reading of Boenicke’s fine-print folio numbering.
Ennyway: Many of the folios in the 70 numberings which alternate “astrological” features with “bathy” features lead up to tales of Greco-Roman mythical stories.
A fascinating website I’ve visited several times is the “Ambrosia Society” webpages. Especially interesting is his discussion of “Angels” (amanita phalloides aka: “Destroying Angel” in particular) which appear in many very valuable medieval paintings of historic battlefields.
Just yesterday, I went again to the Ambrosia Society pages to review once again his fascinating discussion of some other “dangerous” plants. He accompanies his discussion with modern photographs of solanacea, belladonna, henbane,and the fruit of the mandrake plant.
I don’t have a download of the Vms page which has a drawing which looks like a pair of “maracas” or “fallopian tubes”. All I can do, now, is ask you to compare that particular page/folio drawing with the modern-day photograph of the FRUIT of the mandrake plant.
So, I am now backtracking from my translation of folio 86r3 to the “maracas” folio, where I hope to translate as easily as I have the squash page, the mushroom page, water lily/nymphae page and the separate lotus/nelumbo page.
I think I’m going to be very busy with what eyesight I still have before my cataract surgery sometime in late January early February.
So, I hope I’ve given you and Diane O’D lots of fun to dwell on. I still hope one of you can bring Rene Z up to date.
Consider it an early Christmas present.
bd id 1 dr 🙂
To bd. That folio sheet did look a lot like a verso of 86 and not a fold out of f86r. It would have fooled me,had you not pointed it out..
BTW that Angel’s Head mushroom is more often called Death’s Head. It is deadly as it does not act for 24 hrs or so and tastes pretty good BUT it destroys the liver. By the time toxicity is noted, it is too late. The only antidote is also found in the same A. phalloides mushroom but has to be concentrated by a factor of 10 for it to have any effect. My late boss, Berhard Wikop, now under the sod, worked on it in WW2 Germany. His mother was Jewish and he was protected from the Nazis by his boss, Nobelist Heinrich Wielandat the Univ. of Munich. Heinrich’s son Theodore worked out all the chemistry on the bad boys in the mushroom. Witkop had crystallized phalloidine, the main toxic principle and an X-ray diffraction study revealed the structure, an unusual cyclic peptide. Dept of useless info. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Finding “&” in Latin is an ongoing search of mine. Today I found a variant of Latin used just in the south of Italy called “Beneventon” (see Wiki). It abounds in a version illustrated in Wiki that is tipped left and where the ms is written in Roman cursive style. It was used 8C-13C but some evidently survives into the 16C. It turns out to be used mainly in the monastery of Monte Cassino and in Bari. Little resemblance though to the VM although it has a few Tironian notes. Cheers, Tom
TomS (and Nick, if he’s following these latest posts):
A lot of my latest posts are a continuation of discussions pre-“That Which Brings…..”
What I’ve identified on folio 86r are mushrooms of the casual name “Shaggy-mane” and a look-alike “Alcohol Inky” They are both members of the Coprinaceae, Agaricales — most of which are edible, but Coprinus atramentarius can be seriously dangerous if alcohol is imbibed 3 or 4 days EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER eating the Alcohol Inky .
Much confusion of “folk medicine” terminology vs scientific nomenclature. Ennyway (I do know how to spell anyway) over many months now Nick and his fans including me, myself and I) have gone around and around the monasteries of mountainous Italy. My “yodeling” Benedettan, Benedictine, Southern Italian miniscule, Oscan/Volsci, just seems to echo until the echos fade away…..oodlyu-odelyay!
Were you able to follow my recent discussion re “Artemis” hot springs and shrine? Folio 82v. If I’ve gotten reverso/verso wrong, find the folio which appears to have a double rainbow near the riverside — and a very strange barbed structure near the base (that structure is a tree which has been trimmed of its branches and is to be used in a temple bonfire). There is a lot of wiki-info regarding the many celebrations which occur even today.
Actually, if you backtrack from the 80’s folios into the 70’s folios, you’ll be following the ladies progression through various preparations for some kind of celebration/ceremony; of which the manuscribes have chosen to use “classic Greek/Latin” legends by which the “illustrators” can refer for their drawings/sketches.
I’m pretty sure that the entire manuscript was a “rough draft” which was probably meant to be put into one of the manuscript manufacturing processes that were operating even up to when Gutenberg began his printing operations.
Time to eat! Mine is not the only growly stomach!
A tout a l’heure!
To b, I think you have a big hill to climb, maybe like a mountain in fact, if you argue that the VM is heading for the print shop. Printing began in Italy in 1477 but the VM will have to be put into Latin or the Italian of the day before that happens. Movable type would lack all those weird glyphs. Furthermore Nick has shown by analysis of margins, etc. that the VM is a very careful copy of an original that was likely copied from an uncoded plaintext. The plaintext might have been in Latin, then using a cipher substitution involving (I think) some Armenian and made up glyphs (e.g. the inverted gamma, that incidentally is used several times as a Tironian note in the Magna Carta. 1215). I suppose you might save your argument that the VM would be deciphered by some initiate before printing but then the argument is why make a copy and why not use the original unless this was some kind of a back up and the original has vanished or taken out of use, like being stuck away in some monastic library? There would have to be a lot of etching also of alll those nymphs, plants, etc. No way is this likely with the printing technology of the time. I think the fact that the VM is clearly a copy argues most strongly that it was meant to stay in that state. Just too much really careful scribal work, although I would admit employing two scribes might indicate some urgency. I think the carbon dating tends to rule a print-destined draft also. At least 50 years elapse after the vellum is made before letter press printing began. I think Diane also speculated on this some time ago and reported on some printer’s marks?
Speaking of some odd marks, there are very faint marks on that 86r fold out sheet you referred to. Looks to me like some VM glyphs; one being a huge ampersand. Others are a smaller loopy backward “S”, inverted gamma, what looks like a lower case roman “r” and maybe a Tironian note. Well with 14,000 possibilities, any odd scribble might be a Tironian note! Was this a partial palimsest from something else? Here is where a photo taken with UV might help. All for the moment. Cheers, Tom
To b, I hate to rain on any parade, but I think that weird barbed structure you refer to as a celebratory log or whatever is a mended tear in the VM (it matches one on 82r) where the thread has disappeared. This does not affect your arguments about festivals etc but I wouldn’t invoke that trimmed tree to support them. Cheers, Tom
What really “bugs me” (old hippy expression for “irritates”) about nomenclature, mycology especially, is the constant reclassification that goes on in the scholastic world. Talk about codiology/deciphering/terminology/prescriptions/shorthand–and to the point of headaches and insomnia!
TomS, I was born in 1943 (in the USA). My Junior year in high school, was “World History”. I graduated a year later (Problems of Democracy being the Senior year history studies). Patience, y’all, I’m getting to the point. The latest edition of a men’s magazine was all about the capture of that monster who used concentration camp prisoners as subjects for his experiments.
The point I am trying to make is that a whole lot of “history” basically gets buried by the “dogs of war”. When my father got home the evening of my reading the magazine article, I asked him “Why the atrocities were not being taught in American schools”. His response was “it should be forgotten”. What is even more strange is that my mother’s best friend was a German Jewish immigrant to the US.
So, one has to wonder how much history gets “re-classified” as time goes by.
bdid1dr
Dear b, It is up to the living to keep digging and thanks be to the internet, new information on the past can be circulated. I (born ’37 to a US army chaplain) did not major in History but have always had an interest in it and particularly WW1 and WW2. I got deeply into the survival tactics of my late boss in writing an obit/memoire for him that will soon appear in the Transcriptions of the American Philosophical Society, that organization begun by Benjamin Franklin. The Univ of Munich in Bavaria is right in the heart of the cradle of Naziism. I got into some odd things like three subcamps (there were at least 60) of the worst by far of the Nazi camps, this one in Austria, Mauthausen. Witkop teaches for a year in Friesing (suburb of Munich) after the labs he was working in under Heinrich Wieland were bombed by the allies. While at Friesing, the first war crimes trials were held and exactly where Wikop is teaching “chemistry”. Over 60 of the Mauthausen inmates were found guilty and hanged in the same nearby prison where Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. The trials were speedy (mainly because Mauthausen was in the Russian zone) and many of the executed were experimenting with germ warfare. Well in those three subcamps near Munich in a town called Passau (“the town that Hitler called home”) is one that had a Bayer Chemical facility. At this time Bayer had been folded into IG Farben and nearly every concentration camp had IG Farben on the premises, testing out stuff for the German army or just executing prisoners. Mauthausen was worse by far than Auschwitz or Dachau and had Polish boy scouts, captured allied fliers and many Republicans from Spain turned in by the Vichy French. The camp was liberated by the 9th Armoured div of Patton’s army (my father was in the 8th) and the commandants killed on the spot while “tryng to escape”. I keep digging on Passau, camp III but so far no clue why the Bayer name was still used. A lot of revisionism is going on relative to IG Farben and its director Carl Duisberg, and eventually the true story gets buried with claims and counter claims and the principals end up under the sod. Also very hard to get much on the Mauthausen trials. Transcripts are redacted. Witkop himself gets the use of a US army car and I think renders some services but he would never admit to it. In his own memoires however it is clear he knows some US intelligence officers. Give me your email and I will send you as an attachment, my memoire after it has been published. Cheers, Tom
TomS (and Nick):
In re “big hill to climb”: My apologies if my references get more unintelligible as the written discussion proceeds. There was a process in place for producing “special-ordered” hand-scripted and sometimes very elaborately flourished/illustrated vellum/parchment, “books”. For instance, several months ago I was cruising the Boenicke for scriptural archives (Books of Hours/Calendars, etc. I ended up at one very peculiar manuscript, which I have discussed on other pages of Nick’s cipher pages. The particular item was the workshop (which Boenicke indexed as “Hours of Paris) which was a manuscriptory writing/illustration school in Paris. Y’all may be able to back-track, and even get a time-frame for when these hand-written manuscript-ories were processing “special orders” and specialists were creating wood-block illustrations (Clusius apparently had a favorite wood-block carver).
Forgive my run-on sentences/references. For every reference I make on Nick’s pages, I sometimes have spent days of research and note-taking. It IS a work of love; nearly my whole life, I’ve been reading history (mostly novels which quite often tell “the other side” of the story).
Just for fun, TomS, I mentioned the “tree trunk”, as an aid for you and others to find “what on earth is she babbling about now?” You are so careful and polite — this means you, too, Nick! While we are discussing “trees”: Is there anybody “out there in the cyberworld” besides me, who has bothered to find out what in the world made “mastic” (obtained from the “mastic” tree) so very valuable to traders? I now know….
😉
B, Coded ms copies OK. I dont see a rational reason for this but the VM coders may not share that view! Wood block prints are a big problem though. Maybe for initial letters or one nymph that could be used over and over, but the plants would seem to me to be a non starter. Any wood block or etched plate (could be copper etched with acid), is still going to be a mirror image and have to be hand tinted. Not impossible but really one huge tedious project. Cheers, Tom
TomS and Nick,
If all you had on hand was a stack of paper (maybe a boxful) that had been bought by your grandfather, and some metal-quill-tipped pens, how would you proceed to write a draft manuscript which also included a sketch for each element of your discussion? How would you indicate commentary for each drawing and coloring? How would you indicate flourishes (and their coloring)? How would you indicate page/folio sequences?
These are all questions that I posed to wikipedia. So, one last poser: How many dictionaries, in how many languages, do you have at hand? (I have eight dictionaries in six languages and, at one time, I had a “Cruden’s Concordance”,)
I bring all this up because I began reading before I was four years old. I had much trouble with writing because I was left-handed. It got even worse when we switched from pencils to those “goldanged” metal quill-pens which we dipped into an inkwell every other word or so. I mention my left-handedness because all of those dreadful pens had been used by many more right-handed children — to the point that the slit-tip point wouldn’t release ink for me — only blotches!
bdid1dr 😉
TomS,
Catch up with Diane and me on Nick’s latest page in re “Curse of the Voynich”. I sent a relatively brief note there, but will also make the reference here:
A non-fiction book: “The Pope Who Quit” by Jon M. Sweeney
Great reading — right down to the last pages of his own notes/references/bibliography!
A tout a l’heure!
bd
Top b, Golly I am guessing that the school with fantastic metal nib dip pens was an uphill walk both ways and was run by the US post office to use up their old corrosive ink and dip pens. I can remember those but maybe they all ended up at your school after public squawks about the ink ruining their good fountain pens? Cheapskates got their comeuppance.
Today’s brief reiteration:The VM starts life as a Latin, plaintext maybe in Europe or in some entity under European control, like Genoese controlled Kaffa or those islands or Cesme near old Smyrna, or the Dalmatian coast (“Beneventon” was used there also). It is then encrypted by cipher substitution with some Latin glyphs (m,n,a,o), some Armenian (won’t bother going over those again) and some made up glyphs like the inverted gamma, the gallows and the c-c combos. Any c in an odd-numbered string is a null, including a single “c”. The “4” glyph, in my view, is the “c”. Scribal abbreviations including someTironian notes are added but in disguise Many are embedded as a right parens for example the symbol for truncation is often hidden in the reverese S glyph. Then carefully copied by two scribes from the same enoded text.
The mainly blonde bathers do not fit Armenians very well as most modern Armenians,anyway, are dark haired with brown eyes. Still there are some blondes here and there. The zodiac animals are not standard ones or laid out in the conventional manner for Europe, particularly Scorpio which is a croc and not a scorpion, A crossbowman could well be in the employ of the Genoese or Venetians outside of continental Europe. I personally like Bohemia as the “ch” glyph is common, and usually at the end of a word or start of word, which amounts to the same thing, if we accept the idea of words in the VM being pretty arbitrary and mutable things. “Q” and “W” were not used in Czech Latin, unless for foreign words.
Regarding the stretch gallows of Nick’s illustration. I think it amounts to an overbar on both words (i.e. an indication that a letter or letters are missing from each word). Furthermore I think it indicates the gallows glyph is repeated in each word. In this case I think r is repeated and a partial transcript is “irio[x]es i[x]ri” where x is an omitted letter. It might be nice if omitted letters were m or n as often the case with medieval Latin macrons, but that would make the VM too easy for the decryptors.
The stretch gallows are important and another form where a gallow glyph has a huge extension to the right also indicates a hidden overbar, likewise one with an overlong flourish to the left. These will likely prove critical in any decrypt.
Cheers, Tom
TomS,
And here I thought I was the only, lonely, observer/interpreter of the Vmystery script. Here is a beautiful work of writing (and quite relevant to hints of Benedictine-related Papal history):
“The Pope Who Quit”, author Jon M. Sweeney
Within Mr. Sweeney’s beautiful book are references to “Celestine” hermits and Franciscan “Spirituals”. Another very significant (to me anyway) reference is made to Pope Paul II (1464-71) who tortured twenty “humanists” on the rack at Castel Sant’Angelo in 1468.
There is much more, but with winter celebrations being celebrated in at least three major religions world-wide, I think I need to be somewhat more “discreet” in my posts.
During all the years I lived in San Francisco, California I celebrated various Jewish (American and Israeli), Roman and Orthodox Christian, Armenian,Turkish,Chinese-American, Japanese-American, holidays/observances. I even knew how to say thank you, hello, how are you,….at most of those get-togethers.
Dancing has always “opened doors” to me. I did dance at many “Kolo Festivals”; and I still teach at Greek Food and Dance Festivals all around the Bay Area, Sacramento, and Vallejo.
May your holidays be blessed with good health: “nasdrovnya”!
bdid1dr 🙂
I’m still trying to find my earlier references to hand-scripted manuscript production, but I’ll try to pick up where I left off earlier on these pages:
Benedictines, in particular, were beautiful scribes. If I recall correctly, much of their works were copies of earlier manuscripts and paintings. TomS, several months ago I followed up on some of Nick’s references to his adventures in “Averlino” territory Venice/Milan — and Monte Cassino.
I discovered that there were/are many monasteries in “them thar hills”. About the same time I was wandering in the mountains, Nick reviewed a book/novel about the “evacuation” of Monte Cassino’s huge archive of precious manuscripts and works of art. Supposedly the novel’s events were based on fact: That the German and French officers in charge of loading the valuables into trucks were taking them to “safety” at the Vatican in Rome, in advance of the Allied bombing of Italy.
I don’t recall anyone responding to my query “did those trucks actually ever arrive at the Vatican”?
bd
TomS: The “blonde” may have been Circassian? They were prized above all other women because their potential owners (not necessarily “Gentlemen”) preferred blondes and light-complexioned girls/women above all others.
As recently as the 1920’s the Ottoman ruler had a eunuch in charge of his enormous seraglio. There are online photo galleries of pre-world war I Balkan women in their beautiful garments and some even wearing “opanci” / “opanki”.
Some of my favorite “Balkan” dances: Kacerac. Ali Pasha, Pentozali, Karsilimas, Tsiftetelli, Hasapiko, Hasaposerviko……. All dances that I’ve led out on the dance floors at various “Kolo” Festivals.
One consoling thought for me, still pending my cataract surgery, is that I don’t necessarily have to have full vision to guide the way in any of these dances. I don’t shout or number the steps of any of the dances. I lead them by indicating with my right fist, thumb, and forefinger (as if I were trying to hitch a ride) the directions in which we are to dance. When we are done with the lesson, I hand them my “crib sheet”. Example:
Syrtos:
Twelve walking steps:
Begin on R foot:
Side – behind – step
Forward-step-step
Middle-step-step
Back-step-step
Repeat sequence
until music stops
I have even led autistic children, who quite often can’t tolerate loud music or crowds. The greatest reward is when those children run to their flabbergasted parents, while waving their arms in “victory”!
Correction to “Syrtos”
Replace “forward” with “over”
Many people insist that this pattern is the “grapevine” pattern.
Not so. It is more like tracing a genuflection with footsteps instead of with one’s hand. (This is only my “take” on what is an ancient dance, with origins lost in history.)
Dear all, Relevant to the ms taken from Monte Cassino for safe keeping and maybe failing to reach the intended destination of the Vatican library (seems an odd place to head as Roma was still in German hands as I recall) is the so called “Hungarian gold train” that fell into US army hands for safe keeping and was then allegedly looted by US army officers. This train was the last one out of Budapest and had much art, jewelry, gold etc taken by the German SS from Jewish residents. It was captured by the Americans as it headed north to Germany. The train was placed under armed guard but the contents in the next few days seem to have vanished into thin air. My daughter’s boss for awhile at Florence’s villa La Pietra (owned by NYU) was Ellen Tuscano who was legislative aide to a NY congressman investigating this for some of his Jewish constituents. They hit a brick wall in trying to interrogate US army principals and the looting of that train will probably forever remain a mysteryas folks die off.
Monte Cassino was used by German artillery spotters and was dealt heavy blows by allied air forces (despite Vesuvius being in full eruption at the time) but was eventually captured by Polish troops who came up from behind it. A totally phyrric capture. Nothing much was left. That is what I recall anyway. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, I have searched Beneventan and the Dalmatian coast a bit and like a lot of topics relevant to the VM, the story gets complicated fast with two main dialects of the Latin from southern Italy being used across the Adriactic. Still it was in such common use by Venetian traders that it became sort of a pidgen language, and used all over the place, including North Africa. It appears to me to be sort of a stripped down Latin and has its own pronunciation system. It is still used in Slovenia and Croatia. I liked it because it used the ampersand early on.
Venetan is also used in those same two areas and like Beneventan, is a stripped down version of Latin. Latin in the Balkans otherwise is a huge battleground of demographics and the Balkans (a Turkish name) includes a huge area bounded on the East by the Black Sea, the south by the Mediterranean, the West by the Adriatic and going North to some far off rivers. Rumanians were the most faithful of the Latin speakers but it was spoken here and there throughout a huge area with many local dialects. Dunno if I want to dig anymore on this topic. Cheers, Tom
Dear all,Re the last seraglio. When Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) took over, he gave the many occupants of the now defunct Ottoman harem, the passport of their choice and free airfare or ship passage to chosen destinations. But they had to move pronto, 48 hrs as I recall, as he did not want this vestige of the old Sultan’s excesses around. The Sultan was also persona non grata as he had colluded with the allied powers after WW1 into the partitioning of Turkey and possessions into Greek, French and British parts. The Americans took a pass on this, mainly because of Wilson’s stroke so we became fast friends of the Turks. Ataturk took every measure conceivable to make life difficult for Moslems, even to requiring them to wear hats with brims so they could not touch their foreheads to the ground. This secularism is now under subtle attack but I think the Turks are so faithful to the ideas of Ataturk that it will take a lot to get them out of this mindset. But who knows? Anyway, from Harem beauty to garden variety hausfrau in 48 hrs. Lesson in their somewhere! Cheers, Tom
TomS, EllieV,
This particular discussion’s pages seem to be getting buried in the depths of Nick’s archives. I guess it’s time to “bail”! Check my comment on his latest post: Nuns’ manuscript production in various Italian monasteries/convents. Fascinating! (To me, anyway.)
Cya around “here and there”.
bd id 1 dr
Dear all, I think it is instructive to look at the use of scribal abbreviations by the two scribes in the herbal section. They share many,such as the right paren over the c null that is designed to look like that backward “s” and may in some cases be an “s” as it does occur a lot more than one would expect. I have found that the looser larger script occurs on 45 folio pages and 15 of those are r/v pairs. The tighter smaller hand is on 78 folio pages of the herbalwith 28 r/v pairs. Note that apparently NO overlap occurs with both scribes contributing to the same folio page, at least so far as I can tell.There is some appearances of Tironian notes in the work of both, but they are rare. For example the “7” (Tironian for “et”) occurs on f4r (tight cursive),line 2. And superscript “9” occurs in f18r (again the tighter writer),whereas “loosey goosey” uses an “8” but horizontal on f20v,line 9, The scribes seem to experiment with hidden macrons such as the doubling of the final vertical stroke of two gallows glyphs on f6v and again on f17v (lines 1,4,6,8) but then drop this idea and go back to stretching out gallows. Scribe loosey goosey uses one classic Tironian note above the “o”on “4o8” on f22v that I am hoping means simply that an “m” is missing,making that word “come”. Often overbars or Tironian abbreviations refer to an “m” or “n” being understood. It would be a lot to hope for that the few obvious overbars (like also marginal writing,top f17r) mean that, but who knows.
Well, where is this little exercise taking us? Maybe it indicates that the two scribes are working from a ms that is embedded with scribal abbreviations and some slip through, but generally are replaced by their more idiosyncrativ cryptic indications of deletions or truncations? This might imply that the original is much older than the vellum and that there is no attempt to hoax anyone as if that were the aim, then the older out of fashion Tironian notes would have been left in. So my guess at the moment is that the VM text is older than the vellum by maybe 200 yrs or so and that the scribes are working independently ofeach other to make the VM harder than ever to crack? Some abbreviations are shared but there are enough differences emerging to indicate that the scribal abbreviations they have invented may be used mainly by one or the other. Some are I think, diabolically clever like one c-x-c combo on f11r and f15r where x is a “G” glyph but the flourish is missing and combined with the line between the “c”s. The tighter writer so far seems alone in using that disguise. Loosey goosey prefers the right paren mark as in f7v (after 8am), f11v (line 4) f18v,line 2 and super “9” over c-c rather than the usual comma. I will continue this exercise which is mainly one aimed at the time line of the VM but might have a benefit in helping to crack at least the typical use of some of the concealed scribal abbreviations. Happy 2013 to all followers out there of the Gregorian calendar. Cheers, Tom
To b: Your question on the mastic tree and its significance in trade may be very relevant to placing the origin of the VM. I sort of knew what the gum was and didn’t take it any further but today I got to looking at Genoese castles in the Agean (Chios, Lesbos, Samos, Cesme on the West coast of Turkey near Izmir, ancient Smyrna) and found that the island of Chios and Cesme were the two main sources for this valuable gum called also Arab gum but not to be confused with gum Arabic. It had many health benefits and is now being looked at for controling heliobacter pylori, cholesterol and even toothache. It was worth more by weight than gold to the Ottoman sultans and their harems, where it freshened the breath. Anyway, if you teased out the shrub or tree (Pistacia lentiiscus) from your researches in the herbals, maybe this is a major find! The Genoese castle remains on Chios aren’t much now but those on Lesbos are really impressive. No merlon battlements however, none at present anyway. Let’s hear what you did find out about mastic. Reminds me of frankincense that occurs only in a small region of southern Turkey. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, The Dec 17, 2012 issue of Chemical and Engineering News, page 36, has a one page interview with Robin Clark on the use of Raman spectroscopy to identify medieval inks. He is located at University College, London and has worked on the Vinland Map,Gutenberg Bibles,Vermeers etc. He has written a review in 1995 and two subsequent papers in 1997 and 2001. The method is non destructive provided the laser power is adjusted properly. I will try and transmit pdfs to Nick’s blogs if anyone is interested. You can pick up the CEN paper on their blog: http://WWW.CEN-ONLINE. ORG. Clark has worked with McCrone,who first indicated that the titatnium dioxide used in the Vinland map pigments was machine made with modern equipment as the particles were too regular. Despite the parchment being dated to ca.1434, Clark argues that the ink dates are more important. I suppose old unused parchment might be knocking around that can cause mischief? Anyway as candidates for Raman spectroscopy, the red on f1r might be suggested and places where original inks stll linger might be used. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, If you go to Google scholar and enter the search terms: Robin Clark Raman, up pops a bunch of articles on the use of Raman spectroscopy in dating inks, etc. These are nice papers in that the two Acta Chem. Spectroscopy part A have many actual spectra. All of his work can be downloaded as pdfs for free. Got to love Google when they do some things right. The equipment used is non destructive if the laser beam power is set low enough (about 1/10th the usual) and the beam is about 1um, less than the size of a period.
He points out that most medieval vellum was “smoothed” with either gypsum (CaSO4.2H2O) or chalk (CaCO3) and this background can be picked up. Some inks or dyes obtained from nature like cochineal work nicely but some don’t. All mineral based inks work fine. I plan to email him to see if he has ever looked at “Armenian red” from that local worm. It just might be used in that “fancy V” on f1r?
Clark can spot layering of pigments but I think there would be too many layers in the VM to give us much info unless some were later azo dyes which would mean these were added after 1850, not unlikely at all. He can spot gum arabic, beeswax and both eggwhite (as in gesso) and egg yolk (as in egg tempura). I will ask him also if he has done gesso as I think the VM has a tiny dab of it. Anything egg derived or from bees could be carbon dated but that probably too destructive at the moment. Cheers, Tom
Thanks, TomS, for your great follow-up on my search results for the “mastic tree”. (Honest to goodness, several googly results/explanations ALL said only that mastic was the gum obtained from the “mastic tree”!!! Really!) I did, finally go online to the islands, themselves, and got the full story as far as mastic gum being a great deterrent to dental caries and mouth sores.
Now, here’s another poser for you: Mandrake FRUIT prints, photos, old manuscripts — do they exist “anywhere”? If you do find anything that might resemble the strange globes which appear on folio 83v, could you let us know on these pages? What I’ve been able to glean from several herbal medicine websites is that the fruit was valued for its anesthetic properties, and used for major surgeries such as amputations. When I looked closely at the four female figures, they seem to be “CLUING me in” on the mysteries of gestational females and childbirth.
This is particularly fascinating because most of the 70’s and 80’s folios all seem to come together at “Goddess Artemis” Health Spa and Mid-Wifery clinic (f82v/82r and 83v/83r). I can’t find my download for the 70’s series, yet. I’ll be going back into those pages tomorrow.
So far, I am translating the Water Lily, Water Lotus, Mushroom, Salvia, and Squash pages. Just one or two sentences each whenever I discover the syllables appearing as I find their meaning in my dictionaries.
Gotta close down for the night. I spent part of the afternoon tracking down a couple of boys shooting with their new pellet guns at the wild birds who visit my feeders everyday. Ach!
bd
Dear all, I e-mailed Clark with an attaboy comment and a query as to whether he had ever looked at gessos or Armenian red. Will relay any response from him. Cheers, Tom
Nick, ThomS:
Earlier I referenced several folios as being discussions about Artemis and her many shrines. Folios 82 and 83 (particularly the “mandragore/mandrake” fruits portrayed on 83v) may bossibly be “all about” one shrine in particular: Brauron. I am running “full bore” and I need to eat some breakfast with my second cuppacoffee. So, I hope you can pull up Wiki phor a great photo of the Brauron Spa/Spring where Athenians sent their pubescent girls and young women for “finishing school” and to learn about the pains and perils of childbirth.
More later!
Nick, TomS, (and Diane,if you’ve been following the discussion on these pages lately):
I haven’t given up hope on the VMs, but I also don’t expect much response from Nick as I get closer to TRANSLATING the entire contents of that very intelligible manuscript. I will be seeking a publisher sometime later this year (if my cataract surgery is successful).
I’ve finished recapping the myths of Alcyone and Artemis (of which the most “mysterious” stories are being told on the VMS folios numbered in the 70’s and 80’s.
Diane: Not “everywoman” can make her own blog. Yes, bdid1dr is a woman, but not WonderWoman. I apologize if I’ve been interfering with your correspondence here on Nick’s pages. One final word or two: I haven’t referred to “Etruscans” anywhere on anyone’s blog.
TomS: I’m pretty sure that handwritten document was very important to some apprentice who was scrambling to keep up with some lecturer/teacher/philosopher/historian/naturopathologist and illustrator, to name a few possible concerned persons.
C’yall now and then! Nick, I believe you have my email address if you wish to respond to my query as to getting a copy of “Curse” and, I fervently hope, your up and coming sequel. (?)
bd (becoming more blind everday)
to b, I think the Aphrodite/Artemis vein is worth mining in the context of those baths but I do not think you have to go as far afield as ancient Greece (Attica). The shrine you refer to (Brauron) is near the modern departures airport of Athens no less!
The veneration of Greek deities and their Roman equivalents was practised all over the ancient world. For instance Aphrodite under the name Anahit was venerated in ancient Armenia and her image appears on a fairly recent Armenian postal stamp. I was looking for a braid but found none, however that hair style was very popular with Armenian women, shortish and swept back. Oddly modern looking. Minerva was also popular with the Armenians and somewhere I recall, a statue was found in Armenia that did have braided hair but I have mislaid my notes on that, Good luck on your cataract surgery. Cheers, Tom
To b or anyone else interested. Relative to the mastic tree or shrub. Evidently it is not as picky as I first thought BUT was evidently just discovered first on Chios where there alone, the gum weeps from the tree and can be picked off for chewing pleasure or to cope with the odd tooth ache. Just stuff it into a cavity and cancel the appointment with the dentist! The leaves are compound and apparently opposite with up to 6 prs of leaves. Leaf stems alternate. Is this useful plant in the VM. Maybe? If folks accept the illustration of f87v where there are some strange tooth like pods or blossoms or whatever. This is no shrub but it does have approximately opposite compound leaves, but way too many leaf pairs. This shrub has a male and female type and evidently the male kind in this case is more useful and some island named Sios is mainly males.. It is really found all over the Mediterranean, including North Africa and grows on harsh soils Outside of Chios, the tree or shrub (1-4m high) is scarred to let the sap collect, sort of like a rubber tree or sugar maple. Well, those who care about such things, will have counted the little tooth like buds or whatever on 87v and find one group = 13, the other =17, kind of close to the normal human complement of 30-32. Any herbal worth its salt in the medieval period is certainly going to have somewhere the plant, Pistaria lentisus. Dioscorides had it in his herbal. There are others also in the same genus and evidently some of those have gums also. . Whether it is in the VM or not, it certainly seems a handy plant to have around the place. Cheers, Tom
ps. The gum was used in early plays to affix fake beards and mustachios.
To b and maybe Diane, Re the Etruscans, I learned years ago that the Etruscan language has yet to be translated. This is despite the fact that 99% of what is written in Etruscan has been figured out! How so? Simply because that 99% are funerary inscriptions and formularic. The origin of the Etruscans is also unknown. Maybe from an off shoot of the basques, maybe originally Greeks?.
Well b, if you find the VM to be intelligible, you are in a very tiny group. I assume this is like your flagging that ritual log with snapped off branches that you speculated was being used in some festival or other. Just to check who has nodded off? You do seem, however, to have gotten some mileage out of an “ab initio” approach Cheers and good luck with your book launch. Tom
Yup, I did a “double-take” on that “repair job”. You’re right! BUT–take a look at the lady standing next to that repair: what might that be she is holding (that funny green “Y” shape)? Maybe a branch of a mastic tree? Just joking!
I’m still working with five different Latin-English dictionaries/grammars/Bible/concordance, Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary and an edition of Culpeper’s Complete Herbal (published in London by W. Foulsham-no copyright date).
I’ll be following the discussions on the various posts but will be spending more time, now, on putting my notes and down-loads in order and then will be doing a rough draft. We have quite a few small presses in our county and the counties north and south of us.
Patience has never been one of my best qualities. It does help, though, that I was able to “listen” with my eyes to conversations sometimes thirty feet away. It is really hard for me to be patient when I’ve already lost 70% of my hearing, and am now down to less than 40% of my vision!
Ennyway, I guess one is never too old to develop some semblance of patience. I’ll be re-setting the magnification on my monitor/screen now. I’ll catch up with y’all, hopefully, in March or April.
Later is still better than never, eh? ‘Bye!
to b. I think the best lab would be that of Robin Clark’s at University College London. I have emailed him but so far no response. He has worked with McCrone assoc. who did the ink analysis, maybe in fact using Raman spectroscopy. He has published over 100 spectra of substances like gum arabic, gypsum and chalk. He points out that gypsum and/or chalk was used often to smooth out vellum and make it easier to write on. Just knowing that might help us place the origin of the VM vellum. I am hoping that the little dot of white on f52r could be analyzed. If it is gesso as I think it might be, the composition could be very helpful as gesso was made with many components including beeswax, milk, titanium oxide, chalk etc. The little glyph on it is I think Armenian for dz but could also be a Greek delta.
Now for something completely different. I was digging around on mastic and noted, I thought, another island source, this time the island of Scios. Well more searching revealed that name was used by the Genoese for the island of Chios, which name was allegedly Italian. Same island and same rich source of mastic. In fact the locals got a pass from the Ottomans who agreed to a yearly tribute of mastic drops to the Sultan’s harem. Well more digging popped up a great 16C map of the main harbor which to me has a very strong resemblance to the map on top of the 9 rosette page showing a walled city partly surrounded by a moat that Nick thinks depicted Milan in the early 15C. To see the delightful map of Chilos’ main harbor with evidently water being pumped by a dozen windmills see Wiki :isola di chio-dipinto xvi secolo. I think the windmills are pumping water but might be grinding something. Cheers, Tom
To all, More on Chios (Sios). The medieval main city of Chios (Chios city) has a moat evidently of sea water surrounding a walled city that has a perimeter of 4600 feet. It has a snug harbor protected by two semi-circular breakwaters and a lay out of castles and churches that looks pretty darned close to that so painstakingly enlarged and commented upon in Nick’s book on p 47, 119, 120. I am basing this comparison on a map of Chios city that dates from the 16C and was prepared by Davide Papalini and found at the Wiki entry for Chios. I have made a rough translation of the VM text where the opening of the breakwater indicates (“to tie up” (apo) and “to go” (eant). While the main landmarks do seem to line up, it will be noted that the castle fortress near a causeway has a circular guard tower, not a square tower as in the enlarged and rotated top right rosette on f86v that Nick has reproduced in his book on p47. Incidentally, it is the painstakingly reproduced illustrations from the VM that Nick has accomplished that make his book at its modest price, well worth owning and essential to refer to in discussing various VM hypotheses.
I think the mitten like drawings represent waves or are an indication of moving water. I think the three domed structures might be seen at 2 o’clock on Papalini’s city map. It is sometimes hard to tell what is at sea level and what is not in that map particularly with regard to the 12 windmills (some still exist on Chios and each appear to have had twelve sails). Anyway near those mills looks like a mill race with water coming down through the center of the unwalled part of the city. So It might be those mills were designed for either wind or water power? Two types of ship are at anchor in the harbor, arab dhow-like craft and probably Genoese merchantmen. I cannot locate the three towers that Nick has flagged on his p47 but are virtually invisible (on my monitor anyway) in the VM rosette. I think the circular fortress right on the right breakwater could be one but the others evade me as do the structures in the upper far left rosette of f86v that Nick discusses on his page 120. The “hidden church” seems right where it should be in Papalini’s map at about 3:30 o’clock.
BTW Cesme with baths and springs galore is just a short trip by boat to the Turkish mainland and was also a Genoese possession at the same time. It is closer than Lesbos. All for the moment, but I am thinking that Chios should be tossed into the hopper for a likely origin of the VM. Sios was evidently a very important name to the Genoese as the present city of Genoa has a piazza with that name. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, A last few comments on the 9-ringed rosette show on f86v. The large rosette in the center shows, I think, four oversized apothecary’s jars and may indicate the windmills are involved in grinding operations. One could be alum which abounded on Chios, another salt which was fairly rare both in Crimea and the Agean and was also a main export of Chios. Others might have derived from pitch or mastic.
I have a hard time placing that three-layered circular tower with a circular turret seen in the upper left rosette, as it seems somehow partly subterranean. A curiosity of the Papalini map of Chios town is that near the ships at anchor and on the south side of the walls of Chios town, appears a walled depression, roughly a 90 degree quadrant that appears to have sea walls but not very high. The proximity to what might be a house and a guard tower and the wall would fit that drawing. However it is not in a rhomboid depression that is made clear in Nick’s book, page 120, but one wonders if perhaps in the 15C, there wasn’t a structure there, perhaps a light house? No cross on it, like the three layered structure at 8 o’clock that might be another candidate but appears on level ground, not a depression, So today’s little ideas 1) are that the windmills were for grinding and not pumping water as I first guessed, 2) I think the sails of two such windmills, one with 12, one with 7, are shown in top and bottom center rosettes of f86v and represent the mills that provided these grinding operations and 3) opposite the 3-storied structure, evidently a church as a cross tops it, is what might be a covered bridge? Really hard to figure out what that might be and I think some tinting error makes the cross atop that structure look like a flag.
Armenians were a major population of Smyrna, Izmir and are mentioned in a book on Chios. (Google book on Folk-lore of Chios). On Chios under Ottoman control later in the medieval period, they were employed as bureaucrats working for the Turks, often as tax collectors, so were universally disliked. Furthermore they were of the wrong flavor of Christianity. Not Orthodox like the Greeks or RC like the remaining Italians.
Incidentally for a fine film available on DVD I would recommend Pascali’s Island with Ben Kingsley playing a pretty incompetent Turkish secret agent with cover as a school teacher who brings down ruin on his Greek friends. It does indicate that when you call in the Turkish troops in the 1800s, all order collapses and everything in sight gets shot up. Cheers, Tom
ThomS,
If you get a chance anytime soon, check out Rich SantaColoma’s 3-Dimensional “flyover” of what I called the “Nine-Rosettes Folio 86v”. Fun and fascinating!
If you don’t already have a copy of Jocelyn Godwin’s “Athanasius Kircher – A Renaissance Man and the Quest for Lost Knowledge”, I think you would find it fun and jam-packed with Fr. Kircher’s “walking tour” of the Alban Lakes and their “sunken treasures”, as well as his references to the town of Velitrae.
Several months ago, Diane O’D, Ellie V., and I were going “Round and Round” in Nick’s forums (while he and his friends were visiting Frascati). You may be able to still find that particular forum “somewhere”. Lots of discussion in re similarity of the Alban Lakes castles and geographical features as they compare with the features found in f86v, which I was first to label “Nine Rosettes”.
Just a few days after Nick and Rene returned from Frascati, the “Bangladeshi” hack-attacked. Somewhere in Nick’s manifold pages/forums, “Round ‘n Round” still lurks.
You might like to visit Ellie Velinska’s Big Bureacracy pages for some of the discussions she offers. Time to get cooking some breakfast.
😉
Dear all, which might be down to just b at the moment! Kircher was an eminent alchemist and a new book has just come out along with one by Principe on alchemy in general. For those who care about the origin of words. Alchemy comes from arabic and al chimera was oddly enough the arts involved in creating women’s cosmetics, particularly eye shadow. Ever notice how Cleopatra as played by Liz Taylor sort of overdoes it? That was probably fairly typical of the times. Chimera being essentially, the changing of appearances. Well a modest start of the science of chemistry for sure. But in the words of the Swedish alchemist Johann Becker in the 17th C: “The chymists are a strange class of mortal, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasure among smoke and vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty, yet among all these evils, I seem to live so sweetly, that may I die if I would change places with the Persian king!” A good day in chemistry, like the deduction of the structure of a new natural product, makes months or years of investigation worth while.
I will see what more I can distill from those nine rosettes of f86v. I think one on the lowermost right has some clues.
I think it has something to do with the switching of the mills from wind to water power. There was in that Papelini map, of Chios town, an indication of a rocky outcrop to the north, which in Nick’s 90 degree rotated enlargment might be indicated at ca. 4 o’clock.
My current fixation is the island of Chios (Hios, Khios, Scios) as the source of at least the rosettes and likely the VM itself. It was under Ottoman control totally after 1566 but before then a tribute paying, loosely controlled principality of the Ottomans but the exact date of the expulsion of the Genoese remains to be determined (probably about 1475 when the Genoese lost Kaffa?). If some elements of that 9- rosette page overlap with Chios town, then some other questions arise. Can one find any Greek influence in the VM? Was it created at one of monasteries on Chios or even in Chios town itself? Was there an overt Armenian influence or were just a few Armenian glyphs used?
I think that the mention of b. of mastic has had consequences maybe none of us anticipated. I assumed that she had made an ID of the mastic shrub among the plants depicted in the herbal section so I got to work on where those trees are found and bingo up popped Chios as the prime source and it being under Genoese control could provide a link with Latin and Italy. Then the map of Papelini reveals some elements in common with the upper right rosette of f86v. Its nearness to springs at Cesme on the Turkish mainland may not be merely fortuitous but might have relevance to the many bathing scenes. So a strange circle might be near closing? In my opinion it is not nearly as strange as other proposals for the origin of the VM. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Some miscellany: In Genoa there is a pallazzo named Scios (same as Chios), there is also one named after Giuseppe Mazzini whose bronze statue is backed up by a fortress/castle with swallow tailed merlons.
I think the lower right hand rosette on f86v that has that blue colored X-like illustration is a pretty good fit for the angle (ca.60 degrees) between the water course heading down through Chios town and the proposed mill race going to the 12 windmills. I think a center wheel in the “X” structure can divert the stream out to the lagoon or for other uses when the wind is favorable or the stream water flow is inadequate. There are 13 (not the expected 12) stepped structures that likely adjust the windmills somehow to most favorably catch the wind. It may be possible that the mills can also operate with tidal flow and this is another use of that X-like device? Cheers, Tom
Thanks to b for her mention of Rich Santa-Coloma, of whose work on the VM, I confess to being ignorant. He does get a peek at the folded under part of the upper rosette of f86v and speculates that it might indicate volcanism, not with certainty but as a possibility. Well there is volcanism all over the Agean with the classic being Santorini but Chios also has volcanism (see http://greek voyager.com/pagesen/hellas-volcanos.html). Chios has a volcanic beach but this is considered to arise from the huge one that ripped Santorini to pieces and pretty well destroyed ancient Crete in the process. Rich is on shakier ground though with his ID of the “armadillo” which is New World only. I think it has a look-alike, the long-eared hedgehog, found most commonly in ancient Armenia. I cannot see how Rich can have the rosette page indicate both diatoms and also parts of a hypothetical Roger Bacon Atlantis utopia? The apothecary jars as microscopes is also a reach in my opinion.However it is unlikely they are glass as Nick leans to, as Venetian glass blowers while good had nowhere near the skills that these apothecary jars would have required, at least in the 15C era. I suspect they are earth/fire/water symbolism and are just fanciful. Maybe if they really existed, they are some kind of non-transparent ceramic as most of the contents are identified by labels. Rich is also stretching for a 16C laying down of the ink on the basis of Drebbel’s work with microscopes. Here is where a corroboration of a 15C origin would help. If pollen grains are trapped in the vellum, that would help only with placing it but give little help with dating it. No word yet from Clark. I suspect mention by me of the Voynich is off putting?
The winds on Chios were mainly from the North, the Melteme, and the layout of the windmills might indicate an optimum orientation to the wind, if the map is made with the conventional North of the compass at the top. Olives and grains could also have been milled at those wind/water mills. Cheers, Tom S.
Tom: I hate to have to point out the obvious, but having myself gone through everything in the Murano glass museum, you’re dead wrong about 15C Venetian glass blowers. They really were every bit as good as I make out!
Nick, I have not been to that museum and am willing to concede to your argument. What I found on-line was not impressive. I misread your page 77 where I see that you state clearly that the shapes of the apothecary’s jars are likely fantastical but the detailing fit that of Murano glass craftsmen. Anyway what I did not find “obvious” were the shapes and remembered incorrectly that you found the shapes likely to be Murano creations. I see that you have problems there also. If it is just the detailing that fits,and I will take your word for it (the illustration on p 77 of your book seems inconclusive on the matter of any dot-like motifs). It is still not clear to me how this conclusively proves those VM apothecary’s jars are Venetian? What to me is more obvious though is that they are unlikely to be microscopes.
An interesting map dating from 1590 by Braun and Hogenberg (Sanderus antique maps) of Chios town shows some details that differ from Papalini’s map. In particular there are south of Chios town, 13 mills not the 12 of Papalini. There is also a draw bridge where I had guessed at a covered bridge.There seems a raised pier or a floating dock where I thought that “depressed quadrant” was. This map even shows a fortress getting off a canonade at some intruding ship. What I thought was a millrace might in fact be a canal but that is not entirely clear. The B and H map also shows 8 windmills to the north of Chios town.
Chios was under the control of Genoa from 1346-1566. Even after 1566, when it fell under Ottoman control, it was not bothered much by the Turks so long as the locals kept up the yearly tribute payments of mastic. The Genoese control ends but some linger on. The island boasted then 30 monasteries and over 100 churches and 22 local saints. Cheers, Tom
Dear ThomS,
Phillip Neal has an extensive file of Kircher’s correspondence. One of the most interesting documents I found in Mr. Neal’s offerings was a piece of correspondence which had been scratchily overwritten by a very frail hand (Kircher’s): “alchemy”. According to Kircher’s biographer assistant, Kircher was paranoidally frightened of any hint of alchemy.
I translated that piece of correspondence, word by word, and posted my finding here, on Nick’s pages: The entire document was a recipe for preparing colloidal silver. Poor paranoid Kircher — colloidal silver may have had a positive effect in delaying senility.
Mr. Godwin has done a terrific job of encapsulating a huge volume of Kircher’s archives (manuscripts, correspondence, and custom-made artifacts of the Austrian and Bohemian courts — post-Thirty-Years War, at least, which ended up in Kircher’s lap.
I think you would enjoy a visit with Philip Neal. I’m pretty sure you would have much easier access than I. Most of all, HAVE FUN! %)
A couple of months ago EllieV posted some comparisons of the Vms “apothecary jars” with the pictures that appeared on the backs of a pack of playing cards in the collection of the Duke du Berry. I have referred to Ellie’s finding just a few weeks ago. I’m pretty sure that y’all would find it as interesting as I did.
At the time I made the above referral, I also mentioned that Diane might find Ellie’s material fascinating. Round n’ round we go again?
Deja vu “all over again”?
🙂
Tom: to my great surprise, when filming part of the Nat Geo “Ancient X-Files” episode on Murano itself, it became abundantly clear from talking with glass specialists and glass blowers that I previously had underestimated the extraordinary skill of Venetian master glassblowers. In fact, many designs I had thought just plain impossible were no more than a couple of afternoons’ work… if I had the money, I’d commission a glass blower to recreate some of them. Now, wouldn’t that be cool? 😉
Nick & ThomS,
Here in my part of the world, we have glassblower’s studios in four of the counties bordering ours. I have toured two of them. The heat alone is enough to make an ordinary citizen faint! It is a beautiful process to behold. Considering the overall expenditure of the glass-blower’s time, efforts, and the cost of fuel and raw materials, the finished product is worth every ha-penny! I hope you’ll take a “feasibility-tour”, SOON, of some of your local incredibly talented artisans! They may even consider a discount if they understand that you would be “mentioning” them on your blog. (?)
BTW Nick:
Were you able to follow up on my persistent query as to the gold emblem which appears on the beautiful jar/vase of clear blown glass shown in the Murano studio? ThomS, I’m referring to Nick’s National Geographic video clip (shared time with “Sodom & Gomorrah”)
Dear all, Whether those apothecary jars are real or imaginary, (and I am willing to concede that they might have been possible in Venice, even in the 15C), I think their main job is to convey some clues as to the intended contents. Those with small openings were likely for essential oils, that could simply be poured out, those with wide openings were destined for powdered herb mixtures that were spooned out. The colors likely indicate the elements: earth (green), fire (red) or water (blue). The Culpeper herbal (English probably 17C) that b refers to gets heavily into which stellar body controls a particular herb, like sun, moon, venus, saturn, jupiter etc. I don’t see that yet in the VM but the apothecary jars might be as close as the VM herbalists get or want to go, into which elements are in control of the herb.
Back to Chios. The two main Chios maps I have found, both dating from the 16thC, show Chios town from a bird’s eye view looking from the East. To match up that rosette of f86v that shows the castle Nick has emphasized with swallow-tailed merlons (his book, page 47 where he has rotated the image of the fortified town clockwise by 90 degrees), one could assume that east lies at the bottom where there is evidence of the two breakwaters shown in the 16C maps. That would make the top of the unrotated rosette laid out in a westerly direction. North would be facing inland and the “volcano” that Santo Coloma has inferred from the photo he obtained from Beinecke on a previously obscured, folded-under part of the 9-rosette folio page, would be in a south-westerly direction. Well, there were volcanoes on Chios in the area of Emporios, 28 km SW of Chios town. There were several but all are now extinct. They did in the course of various eruptions, leave a beach of black pebbles on the south coast, a curiosity that visitors seek out for their bathing pleasures. The VM text above the image of the putative volcano is hard to read but I think is: “aeau & asan” (the phrase includes a rare occurrence in the VM of the ampersand) . I think the second glyph is an “8” (for “e”) but might have been a Tironian note “circle” over something else. This is a strain both for my printer and my eyes.
As an aside, I found a map from 1598 of Chios (called Scio on the map escutcheon ) that appeared to my eyes to be grossly misidentified despite being touted as showing the great skills of the map makers/printers in 1609 in Amsterdam/Frankfort. Hardly resembled real maps of Chios at all (the map had way more bays and rivers than does Chios) and I was about to contact the antiquarian map seller (Langenes) when I saw a word in larger type “Catomerea” toward the south end of the island.and got curious about that named area.. It turned out to be a Genoese fortified area, designed to protect the mastic groves in the area. Pirates after mastic and the wealth acruing from mastic cultivation were always a nusiance for Chians (some say Chiots!). I concluded that the map was some kind of poorly remembered layout of Scio and that the Genoese had renamed most of the major cities, bays and monasteries. It had TWO major bays facing east and each marked porto di scio. Well I got pretty deep into the weeds on that, trying hard to make it line up with my maps of Chios town. All for the moment, Tom
ps. Mastic shrubs/trees are propagated by the locals using “layering”. In Turkey and eastward it is used in food and drink, and for gum, even being in “Turkish delights” those Turkish candies that are habit forming. It is used more as in health regimens in the West for upset stomachs and to control cholesterol and maybe the stomach bacterium, Helicobacter pylori. .
Dear all, One punctillio and that seems to be an overlap with the Genoese and Ottomans for Chios hegemony starting about 1512. By 1566, the Ottomans have total control but a sort of benign administration, being more or less absentee landlords and staying clear of policing so long as the mastic shipments arrived on schedule. There was in 1821, the start of many uprisings of the Greeks against the Turks but Chios stayed out of it. Later in the 19C, however, Greek activists arrived on Chios, staged a rebellion and the Turks took a terrible revenge on Chions, perceived as “ingrates” by killing over 30K, many being women and children. This massacre was the worst perpetrated by the Turks at that time and was memorialized by Delacroix and Victor Hugo. During this period and the later fighting in Smyrna, nearby on the Turkish mainland, more Greeks died as did many Armenians who, of course, suffered vastly more in the north of Turkey during the genocide during WW1 where 1.8 M Armenians were killed. All for now, Tom
ps. Nominal Ottoman control of Chios with or without Genoese being present, might have gone back even before 1512 and might have been an inducement of the VM scribes to use an encipherment scheme for writings they regarded as particularly valuable. It is deliberately designed I think to look arabic. All those c’s, gallows and what might appear to be diacritical marks, would look, I think, a lot like arabic on first glance. Some monasteries were abandoned during this period and I am guessing that things might not have been copascetic even between the Latin Genoese (RC) and the Greek orthodox Chians. The Chians did not have a monastery devoted to Saint Helena but one does exist on the Scio (Genoese) map of 1598. Could Jesuit father Strickland, whom Ethel Voynich in her 1930 letter, thinks might have been on Malta, actually have had contacts with personal libraries of former Genoese RC clerics from Chios? Was the VM itself ever on Malta?
Dear all, Ignore for the moment, my attempt to make the rosette showing what I think is Chios town, line up with the compass points so that the putative volcano lies to the SW. I got to looking at that strange T/O circle and now wonder if that is not part of a compass rose? If the long line is an east-west axis, then the opening to the port (East) is in the upper right hand quadrant and the short line might face south which would put the top of that rosette as the conventional north. Getting the directions to line up with that rosette is still a work in progress and I may be guilty of making the directions line up to put the Emporios volcanoes south west to Chios town. More anon but hold the presses for the moment. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, A possible alternative interpretation to that advanced by Rich Santa Coloma for that T/O symbol in the upper left section of the 9-rosette page (f86v) is a simple North wind direction “tramontana”, indicated on old compass roses as T. The magnetic compass was old, discovered by the Chinese but not used for navigation, or not much anyway, sort of the same way they sat on their invention of gunpowder.
An Italian from Amalfi came up with the first workable magnetic compass for navigation but this was in the 14th C. Until then maps made do with prevailing wind directions. Might not the T inside the O be just the usual clever scribal deviousness, in this case to indicate North on the rosette depicting what I think is Chios town on the island of Chios? It shifts my original layout by ca 120 degrees counter clockwise. Unfortunately now Chios town is totally changed, thanks to earthquakes, Turkish invasions and urban planning so present maps are not helpful. The moat is filled in and now a car park. In my reinterpretation of the layout of Chios town, the main lagoon opening to the sea is now at ca. 2 oclock, not 6 as I previously thought. I had a problem with that anyway as there are not any structures looking out from 6 oclock as indicated on the rosette map. It is true that original compass roses were sort of odd with a little cross on the east point of the compass indicating the direction to Jerusalem, i.e. unless you were somewhere east of Suez. No cigar yet for the proposal of Chios town as the source of the f86v rosette view as I really need to find out what source Papelini was using for his map drawn in 2009. It is somewhat truncated in the Wiki entry. Cheers, Tom
bdid1dr: I’m sorry to say I haven’t traced that gold emblem further, but will try to revisit it in a little while (along with Ellie V’s various observations and suggestions).
Nick and ThomS,
As far as orienting the Nine Rosettes folio, take a look at the “Sun” figures lurking in the top left corner and bottom right corner. Then, if you have a copy of Godwin’s “Kircher” map of the Alban Lakes and surrounding territory, you will then be able to identify ALL of the physical features that appear on the Nine Rosettes folio. Kircher had two engravings made after he did a round-trip around the Alban Lakes. Some features he identified were Campus Hannibili Locus Feriarum Latinarum, Rocca di Papa, Castellum Gandol. On the second map, he shows a compass point in the middle of the lake.
So, I am convinced that Kircher found that particular manuscript to be important enough to include in his many publications. Keep in mind that his work was being sponsored by two notable personages: The Land Graf of Hesse-Darmstadt and by Nicolaus Claude Fabri Peiresch.
I’ve mentioned, before, that Kircher also identified the rosette in the upper right corner as being “Volsci regni pars – Velitrae.
Apparently, Nick and friends have been puzzling over the “michiton o la daba…..unintelligible in part – page (f116v?).
As far as I can tell, it was probably the scribes’ (2 of em?) sign-off “prayer”. I still think Fr. Kircher was also acknowledging their efforts by his own prayer with every item he published. You can compare quite a bit of Kircher’s offerings with the Stanford University or Oklahoma University libraries/studies. Nowhere will you find Kircher claiming to be the inventor of the telescope, the magic lantern, or the vomiting fountain, or any of the artifacts that bear the coat of arms of Frederick III.
I rant, but won’t recant. Might get a little vacant-minded after this last monologue!
bdid1dr 🙂
I reiterate (for at least the 4th time) that Kircher had nothing to do with the production of the “Voynich” manuscript itself. Somehow, when he received it from “somewhere”, he immediately recognized it as being a “map” of the Alban Lakes and their temples, mansions, and Papal “residences”. He also pointed out the far borders of the region by indicating “Valscorum regni pars” and “Velitrae”.
Having taken another look through my five atlases (Blaeu’s “17th century”, being one) I admire, even more, Kircher’s efforts to display and portray the many “wonders” he received from “everywhere”. J. Godwin wrote a balanced biography of Kircher and Kircher’s world.
Brunchtime! Ciao! 😉
To rosette aficienados, It appears to me that the castle with those swallow-tailed merlons in upper rt handed rosette has had those battlements reinked but only those details of the castle; the rest of the castle, as well as the entire rosette remains with the original ink.
I like the idea that the VM was conceived and enscribed on the Greek island of Chios (Genoese Scio) which was under the control of the mainly Guelph Genose from 1346-1566. The Genoese did waver a bit in support of the pope but did not switch sides overtly as did some city states. During the Genoese occupation of Chios, there was an annual tribute of mastic to the sultan directly as early as 1512 but the Ottomans did not occupy Chios and left the Genoese in administrative control Earlier the Venentians had controlled Chios briefly after their sack of Constantinople in 1204 when they overwhelmed the Genoese defenders at Galata. The Byzantines took over again and cut trade deals with the Genoese.
Chios again reverts to Venetian control (1694-5) after a brief interlude under the Florentines (1599) but the Turks tighten their grip and reestablish hegemony, pretty much running things from 1566 onward.
Well suppose that during this constant turbulence, it became useful for VM scribes or later owner(s) of the VM at some time to indicate fealty to the Holy Roman emperor and just a quick redo of those castle battlements would suffice to indicate a Ghibelline allegiance? Is Rudolph II who was briefly HR emperor, the cause of this reinking? BTW, a fine example of swallow-tailed merlons is on the Casa di Romeo or Verona castle of the Montecchi family .
Genoa is famous also for hosting Occitan writers and troubadors later in the medieval period.
Back to the 9 rosette folio (v86v) where a circle in the lower left looks to contain the Latin letter “L”. For people who care about winds, the prevailing winds on Chios were mainly from the North (melteme, called by the locals, tramontana, perhaps indicated by the “T” in a circle) and the scirroco from the south west (called libeccio by the locals). The wind mills of Chios appear even in a Turkish map of the 16thC that can be seen at the Wiki entry for Chios.
Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Most Voynichers seem to lean to the idea that the top right rosette (f86v) is a neverland, an imaginary city,
I think a real city is possible. I think it could be a very adumbrated version of Chios town on the Greek island of Chios. The viewpoint is from outside the walls and that T/O circle at the top shows an east/west axis with the right arm of the T representing east on the compass; left arm is to the west with north being at the top of the map. The opening to the sea is at the upper corner of the rosette (northeast) with sea water forming a moat around the city. The direction of water flow is indicated by those short-fingered gloves, These go in opposite directions from what I propose are the breakwaters at upper right in the rosette. I was wrong when I indicated that the moat is now filled in. In a ’97 guide to Island hopping on Greek islands, the current map indicates sea water on the north and west side of a squarish Chios town with the sea on the east side and a lagoon on the south side. The volcano that Tim Tattrie deduced from an unrolled portion of the upper right rosette and that Rich Santa Coloma has publicized, could be at Emporios which lies SW from Chios-town but has been inactive for evidently centuries. There is active seismic activity on Chios and much structural damage was done in the 19thC, with 10s of thousands killed..Many prominent buildings seen on the 16C Papalini map or the 16C Braun and Hogenberg maps do have a rough alignment with towers or castles on the walls of the circular rosette. The B and H map indicates a squarish layout of Chios town while the Papalini map (see Wiki for Chios) indicates a circular shape of the fortified city. What is not clear is the origin of the four towers with conical tops that flank one another on the north side of the map. They appear to be outside of the fortress and are just at the point where the Papalini map is truncated. These could be reflections as the only structures I find in the Papelini map are well inside the walls on the north side and have a row of buildings in between them and the wall. So that part of the layout remains unclear.
If the rosette map is real and Chios town is the likely venue where the VM was either created or at least the rosette was,then a number of questions arise. 1) Can any Greek influence be detected in the VM. Even at the height of the Genoese occupation, roughly 80% of the population was Greek. 2) the cultivation of silkworms and fabrication of silk is a major enterprise on Chios in the middle ages, along with propagation of mastic shrubs. Is there a hint of silk making in the VM? If the herbal deals only with medicinally useful herbs, we likely will not find much on the silk industry. 3) there were public baths (hamams) on Chios and in Chios town but likely they came in with the Ottomans. Otherwise there are no rivers on Chios but some evidently old man made lakes do exist. Major torrential streams exist and are indicated on the B and H map, They may have served as a backup to power from the windmills.
I know Nick holds out for medieval Milan being what is depicted in the rosette but that has problems for me in the Milan has two internal rivers and not much of a moat, I think the sea water moat shown in Chios-town maps was big enough for navigation by ships. A lift bridge is shown in the B and H map where only one half is lited. In the VM rosette it would have been roughly 8 oclock where the blue “eye” -like symbol is.
It is rare to find in travel guides anything approaching a discouraging word, but whoever wrote the guide to Chios-town certainly downplays any attractions. It evidently abounds with foul smelling water and mosquitoes. It is a major dock for several Greek cruise lines. A few discos and that’s about it. Other parts of the island are charming and home to wealthy Greek shipping magnates. Chions did make pottery but nothing fancy like those VM apothecary jars. Just jugs, pots and plates. There was a complicated Chion decorative pattern but it did not have much in the way of dots. Cheers, Tom
Tom: as far as I can tell, there’s nothing obviously (or even unobviously) to do with silk production in the Voynich’s plant drawings. Maybe someone will correct me but… birds (two), bees (maybe), but no silkmoths.
Oh, and don’t forget that Milan had lots of canals! Specifically, a large circular canal that even today defines the shape of the city (though it has been covered over and turned into a ringroad). I never said that a river runs through it, but rather that a canal runs round it. 😉
OK, gentlemen:
I think I’ve led us all off the beaten path, or at least the Vms garden path. My query about the source of mastic seems to have “some of us” going far afield. However, even if we don’t find silk moths (or the mulberry tree leaves necessary to raise and nurture silkworms) there appears to have been quite a bit of commerce involved in the silk cloth trade (shades of Marco Polo?)
Meanwhile, not too long ago, when I was referring to Artemis (and those very greatly enlarged “maracas/gourd rattles) I posed a question about the use of mandrake FRUITS on the medieval battle fields: The juice was a powerful but also beneficial anesthesiological “knock-out” drug when performing amputations on the battlefields. Have I given y’all an interesting history puzzle to solve, here? 🙂
bdid1dr: nope, no puzzle there. 😉
ThomS, my apology if I seem to have sent us all on a wild goose chase when it comes to identifying various plants which might be portrayed in the Vms. However…..
Ellie has posted a great illustration on her blog page which led me almost immediately to Wikipedia with the search terms “sericulture” and “silkworm” feeding of “white mulberry leaves”.
Many centuries of “jousting” for control of silk fabric production, especially with France and Italy. I’ve been a hand-spinner of wool and silk thread textiles, woven and/or knitted (and mushroom dyer) for the last 30 years. Whether this qualifies me as an “expert” in the fields of botany, horticulture, mycology, and the various “tall tales” told throughout the ages — I don’t claim to be. Puzzle solving and records research, however, are high on my list of “favorite things to do”!
BTW, Nick: Have you seen or heard from Reed Johnson, at all (when he had just been visiting Prague), since we were discussing the various “horoscope” pages?
Dear all, Inclement weather has kept me away from Voyniching for about a week.
I don’t regard the mastic shrub and its cultivation as any wild goose chase but rather as an example of sendipity. Getting maybe a rare break by accident. I think one plant on f87v with the “molar-like” buds or blossoms might be a sylized mastic shrub. If one wished to indicate a plant use for toothache, it seems to me that one would pick a molar rather than an incisor or canine to illustrate this use. The latter two deptictions would be somewhat ambiguous as to any implkied use. When b. raised the issue of mastic I did think she had uncovered clues in the herbal or maybe even an ID so I did a bit of reading and this led me eventually the northern Agean island of Chios, like Kaffa, under Genoese control during the period when the VM ink was likely laid down. I think a scenario might be: Armenian influence at Kaffa being instrumental in formulating the cipher and the enciphered plaintext being evacuated with Genoese and maybe some Armenians to Chios after either 1) the black plague in mid 14thC that hit Kaffa hard or 2) the overwhelming of Kaffa by the Ottomans in 1477 The inhabitants of Chios had worked out a modus operandi with the Ottomans, unlike the less lucky of Kaffa. It is known that most of the Armenians from Kaffa went inland from the Crimean after 1477, mainly ending up in the Ukraine, as far north as Poland. The VM is copied in a final version on Chios and eventually winds up back in Italy via Genoa. Voynichers will recall that Edith Voynich mentions a Friar Strickland, possibly from Malta as an intermediary owner of the VM. A search for any connection between Malta and the Genoese reveals that the Genoese did not evidently occupy Malta (near Sicily, right in their back yard) as they did Chios, Lesbos, Samos etc BUT that the great admiral Doria of Genoa periodically evicted the Turk from Malta. So Malta was under the protection of Genoa in the medieval period.
I think that dating the VM inks should handle the VM and the 9-rosette insert separately as the rosettes page might be a later addition. I think also that DNA analysis of the VMvellum and the rosette insert might yield some useful info,, such as the animal involved, cow, goat or sheep. There is a particular fat tailed sheep on Chios that is, as I recall, a particular species. Amirdovlat Amasiatsi writes that the fat from such tails as having particularly useful medicinal properties. At the moment, I have no link though with AA and Chios.
I agree with Nick that any clear evidence of silkmaking and any kinds of caterpillars or moths is not present in the VM. All for the moment, Cheers, Tom
to b in particular, No need to apologize or fall on your pen for ideas that go nowhere or appear to dead end. We are consenting adults here and each will indivually pick and choose what appear to be promising or just interesting leads. My current fixation with Chios might end with being a time waster but it is only from the formulation and demolishment of hypotheses that we are ever going to get anywhere. As was observed donkey’s years ago, “there is someone smarter than any of us and that is all of us!” The use of the pronouns there does not merit close inspection but I think the idea comes through. Somedays one gets the impression that as we follow one lead after another a weird, uniique vision of the totality of medieval history is going to emerge!
Maybe the Armenian connection that I have flogged is destined to become a cropper in the end, but I think it still has some legs. If it goes nowhere, I will not feel compelled to apologize to anyone for the idea. It is just out there for brickbats or a nod of acceptance. Cheers, Tom
So far, I’ve found the Vms “schoolboy latin” “workbook” to be “all about” Greek and Roman mythology:
mushroom/fungi: Alcyone and Ceyx & birds who nest on water. Also the origin of the word “hallucin”
water lily: Nymphaea
bathing beauties: also nymphaea/lymphae
water lotus: “Sacred Bean” of Egypt – Nelumbo
mandrake fruit: Artemis/Diana (maybe Angelica)
Finally, I’m now investigating the peculiar plant (VMS folio) which Ellie displayed/discussed recently on her blog: What appears to be to be a mulberry (it cannot be an artichoke):
Pyramus and Thisbe. Apparently, Shakespeare based “Midsummer Night’s Dream” on this last pair of doomed lovers.”
So far, all of the above seem not to be discussing the “botany” of any plant illustration, but rather the mythic origins of the particular plant’s nomenclature.
🙂
Dear all, Very thorough geological studies were undertaken by the Greek government in 2006 in investigating geothermal energy possibilities in a number of islands in the Agean that had experienced volcanism in the past. Among these were Samothrace, Lesvos, Chios and Santorini. Just concentrating first on Lesvos, we find some five sites where either thermal spas are in operation or greenhouses are being heated. The water temps range from 40-90C. Chios, just sourth of Lesvos, has in the north of the island two springs where the temps range from 35-54C and both are saline with one at levels the same as sea water (22,250 ppm). Another warm spring is located just 4 km south of Chios town at a comfortable 26C (79F) and is also saline (19,000 ppm). Back in the North there are also three cold springs. I think this indicates that bathing could take place in Chios as well as Cesme or Lesvos (Lesbos).
One problem though with Chios is that the last volcanic eruption was 500K yrs ago. I am wondering however whether the “volcano” that appears in the foldout rosette might actually be a fumarole? Subsurface water in the north of Chios can be as high as 220C, really superheated, while water from one borehole in the south of Chios had an 80C temperature. I have yet to get confirmation of any fumarole on Chios but any active volcano is definitely ruled out. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, While searching on silk and Chios, I came across two relevant links. One was to the silk industry and its creation and control by Sephardic Jews, evicted from Spain after Ferdinand and Isabella’s misguided, ruinous decree in gratitutude to the Almighty for their winning the last battle with the Moors at Grenada. This drove out the cream of their artesans like diamond cutters, silk and paper makers. The Ottomans made them welcome and 200-300 Sephardis were settled in Chios Sometime after the battle of Lepanto (1571), a quilt is made of silk from Chios depicting this “Catholic” win but woven into this is much that would have delighted alchemists. This is described in detail by Sarah Davis of Monmouth with 7 photos, most color corrected. See Google on “Silk Quilt in the Late Renaissance Style”. Not clear to me who commissioned this but the writer guesses German protestants or anti-counter reformationists (to me, seemingly antagonistic views?) in the court of another HR emperor, Frederick, son in law of James I of England. Much on alchemical imagery that might prove at least interesting if not useful to Voynichers. I had no idea ,for instance, that one of the first alchemists was Miriam, the sister of Moses who is credited with the invention of the double boiler. Really!! Cheers, Tom
Dear all, On the off chance that Chios might have had some of the botanicals shown in the VM, I searched the “Flora of Chios” and got a nice hit “A Survey of the Flora of Chios” by R.D. Meikle. The survey was done by Meikle in 1939-40, right before the woutbreak of WW2 when Chios was occupied by the Germans. In the 114 pp of the survey (Kew bulletin 1954) are descriptions of 693 species, two of which are new and one very rare. Ten lovely line drawings (Figs 2-11) are included of special plants that are either variants of known species or new. None appear to resemble anything in the VM, but that is not surprising. It turns out that many Chios plants (445) are found on other islands or the Greek or Turkish mainlands, so in general, not much to write home about. The idea that Chios plants might somehow be unusual and depicted in the VM takes us nowhere. Another dead end. Cheers, Tom
ps. The bulletin is full of the usual nitpicking arguments that biologists love and when Meikle describes his new finds, he lapses into Latin as was the tradition.
Dear all, I’ll keep this brief as I think many have already waded through the swamp of medieval Christian heresies: Quite by accident, a circle closed for me and it was not the “ouroboros” of the Chian quilt, that alchemical symbol of a circular snake eating its tail, but another circle. I read that this symbol was a favorite of the Albigensians and had been introduced by (you guessed it) those Armenians again. It came into Europe via Bulgaria and Dalmatia from Asia Minor (Galatia) after the Bulgarian king converted to Christianity but ran into problems with the Pope. The Cathari are also involved but both go down during the Inquisition and only the less extreme Waldenses survive. There is maybe more than most want or need to know about the Albigensians (named for Albi in southern France) but the following link to the work of Henry James Warner is good:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Albigensian_Heresy.
The Armenians who never were supporters of the papacy became equated with heresy. They regarded the Christian empire of Constantine as a Johnny come lately and thought their own arch bishops superceded “the bishop of Rome” (old Webster’s dictionary definition of “the Pope”). .Well there you have it, Catharis, Paulicians (proto-Albigensians) and some others who became so troublesome to the Pope that many were burned at the stake for what we might regard as theological fine points, such as was each manifestation of the Trinity really coequal?
May have zip to do with the VM but maybe, however, a long tradition of writing in code exsted among Armenian clerics and academics and interfaces with the VM?? Cheers, Tom.
ThomS,
Not necessarily entirely about Vms discussion, but very interesting “history”:
A book (non-fiction) written by Doreen Carvajal, “A Modern Tale of Survival, Identity, and the Inquisition”. While I’ve been reading her story, I’ve come across some people, places, and time periods which she discusses. Though I never had the opportunity to view the actual documents, I was responsible for doing a search for the “missing” documents of the Pueblo of San Jose (California).
You might see some “parallel history” with Ms. Carvajal’s intriguing book.
Nick, ThomS, EllieV, & other interested parties:
Just for fun, and another angle on the VMs, plug into your search engine, the terms “Shakespeare” and “Inquisition”. Whoo boy!
One more Shakespearean reference: “Coriolanus”. Athanasius Kircher hinted at that subject by his identification of “Valscorum regni pars-Vellitrae” : “The Alban Lake in Antiquity, Latium” p.38″
“Round n’ Round” we go — was the forum topic which I initiated back when Nick and friends were having their conference in Frascati. My favorite “locale” was the “Rosette” which featured a feature which Kircher identified in his publication as “Valscorum regni pars-Vellitrae”.
Shakespeare’s stage-play “Coriolanus” is “all about” that part of Roman history. Even today, I’ve been going down different paths of Italian (Volsci and Vellitraean) history and linguistics. Fun! Fascinating!
While doing a little more research on Shakespeare and Inquisition activities, I came across a small article written by Marguerite Rigoglioso, Ph.D.
“The Goddess Diana and the Lake of the Mirror of the Moon”
Subject matter refers to Lake Nemi, Diana/Artemis cult activities and the Inquisition.
What is significant to me is that Fr. Kircher apparently avoided any discussion of Lake Nemi in his published writings.
I was typing under a time constraint with my last post/reference to The Goddess Diana and the Lake of the Mirror of the Moon. Here is my full citations/links:
book: The Stregan
thestreganandthedreamer.com/the-goddess-diana-and-the-lake-of-the-mirror-of-the-moon
~Theresa C. Dintino
(my note: Dintino refers us to Marguerite Rigoglioso:
The Cult of Divine Birth in Ancient Greece and Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity.)
It appears that Ms Dintino was trying to create a url link but forgot to begin with the httpetc….
I left a comment on Ellie’s page also.
So, this is probably about the 30th time I’ve referred to Fr. Kircher’s offerings/identification of just about “everything”: in Frascati, the Alban Lake, and Lake Nemi: as they appear in the various folios of the Voynich manuscript (Beinecke 408).
What I find especially interesting about Kircher was that he was the head of the Jesuit Order’s Missionary operations during what was still an era of religious terrorism and turmoil.
One of the best “modern-day” online tourist guides is “Rome Art Lover” dot com. Most of all, have fun exploring y’all!
Dear all, On the topic of the flora of Chios,I might have been premature in excluding Meikle’s newly discovered species of Senecio (Senecio cineraria; his Figure 8) with anything in the VM herbal section. There is actually a pretty good match with the herb on f48v. Well turns out that S. cineraria has at least 6 species that have borne that name in past years, three of them being in the genus Senecio, three in other genera. What complicates life is that the common trivial name for S.cineraria is “Dusty Miller”and that plant is also used to refer toat least six different herbs. A closer match to the f48v herb is Senecio vulgaris, also known as groundsel and it has many herbal uses: diuretic, antihelminic, purgative, etc. The Wiki version of Senecio (S.vulgaris) is pretty close both in the leaf shape,the roots, and the yellow blooms. In my view, the leaves of the plant being colored but not the stems or leaves,indicate that part is used in “medicine”. Meikle’s Figure 8 looks a lot more like S. vulgaris than S. cineraria. So a great big positive “maybe” might be the ID of f48v as Senecio vulgaris. The senecio genus has however over 1K species. If this ID holds, it means that at least one and likely more plants in the VM do repesent real plants.That for me is a game changer.Cheers, Tom
Dear all, The book on Folklore of Chios indicates that hair dying among the ladies was popular using some preparation that produced a chestnut color Seems that the local males began to dislike black hair!! An early “just for men” that was foisted off on the ladies. Cheers,Tom
ThomS, et al:
You might like to visit Nick’s “Brackets Irony” pages to see some discussion about crocus sativa. I just recently found another Vms folio (35r) which features another set of what Nick is calling brackets/underlines. Time will tell if I am hallucinating. 🙂
Dear ThomS,
By inadvertently leading you to the island of Chios (when I was trying to find the source of mastic), I am now hesitant, but will anyway, refer you to Nick’s pages which discuss “Irony, and “brackets”.
The “brackets” aren’t brackets. I’ve already explained on several Vms folios that the “loopy poles”, with a loop on each pole, represent the syllable/phoneme/sound of ell. I’m trying to not have to reiterate for the umpteenth time my “decoding” of six different folios. But, here’s the thing:
Boenicke’s manuscript 408 (the “Voynich”) has another folio, 35r, which might keep you on the island of Chios for a while longer:
Folio 35r is ALL about the saffron crocus. Nearly every botanical folio I’ve translated gives the greek/latin nomenclature for each botanical specimen being portrayed, as well as its mythic origins. Folio 35r refers to mythic Crocus and Smilax — I’ll let you “guess” which island is featured…. 🙂
I’m still working on the discussion which appears on the stem portion of the illustration on folio 35r. Various online sources for myths discuss the earliest portrayals of collecting the pistils and stamens for “saffron” (cooking, cloth dyeing, perfume…). Of course there is just a hint of how trade was conducted for this very valuable commodity.
ThomS,
Correction (disregard the typos and distracted notes, my left thumb is splinted):
One island is referred to as Cilicia, and apparently the legend of Crocus and Smilax originated from there.
If you can, download/print folio 35r, so you can compare my partial translation (if you have latin/english dictionary handy, you can observe how I reached my translation (a 3-step process.)
1. Celestial heavenly gods/goddess, here she is
2. quotl cecam quo ill e c sus aesam
3.aes ecam cellex eus _____ellam cellcosaus
4. quoell ceus crocell e_cos ctlco _____ aesan aesaneus
5. ollecos co_e llec llececeus aesceuseus aes am aes an
6. recam ec ae as e can aesam
7. croceusaum ellecoes ceatleus
8. quo tl e ceus tl am aes am
The discussion which appears on either side of the stem, begins with that elaborate “loopy P”, which I’ve discussed before on Nick’s pages:
That which appears on quite a few of the Voynich botanical pages is a combined syllable: “SP” . In this case, it begins the identification of the plant being illustrated:
SP eci am cceasas Crocuseam.
There are six more lines of Voynichese Latin-based discussion of the origin and uses of this most valuable product: Saffron
I have a tiny pillbox in which I keep those tiny plant parts that I collected from my “crocus sativa” blossoms in my herb garden. Now and then I add a pinch to my pot of Jasmine rice — ummm yum !
bd
For Diane and anyone who has an interest in the VM zodiac. Until the VM is deciphered, aren’t we all really following “hunches”? I recommend the following book: E.W. Maunder, “Astronomy without a Telescope”, 1904. The first chapter deals primarily with the zodiac. Because of the animals depicted (sheep=ram, bull, goat, lion), these are assumed to be either domesticated animals or animals of the hunt. There are no elephants, crocs, camels depicted (considered to exclude India) . It is considered likely that these animals marched from East to West across the ecliptic plane (the plane perpendicular to the earth’s axis) right along the bottom edge. The choice of animals places the creation of the zodaic between the Aegean and the Caspian seas and the orientation of the animals (upright or recumbant) to the ecliptic puts the likely latitude at north 38 degrees, either what is now northern Iraq (ancient Mesopotamia, valley of the Euphrates) or ancient Armenia. The depiction of the scorpion is not the standard one and is some kind of croc-like creature that Diane has researched. It is possible that the zodiac creatures of the VM were added at some later date and that some non-traditional depictions appear in the VM. Both Aries (Ram) and Taurus (the bull) are split into two with a light and dark part. Sagittarius is a cross-bowman, not the usual centaur. Cancer has two crabs, a light and a dark one. I think the vernal equinox is indicated by a cross with four dots in the lighter half of Aries. I think the VM zodiac pages indicate a calendar reform is going on but more on that anon. I think the tipped tubs are a clue . Cheers, Tom
To anyone who cares about the “bracket” question. Another possibility is a much simpler one and that is that where the “ligature” originates and ends is where a cipher is inserted. Keeps the scribe from having to write the cipher twice.
to b. on Cilicia. There might well be an island as you opine but Cilicia was the center of Armenian power in the very early middle ages. It is in south central Turkey near where the cross over from Syria mostly occurs. It was famous for scholarship and medicine and backed the various crusades that came through enroute to Jerusalem. The Armenians supplied the armies with food and supplies and manpower. Many Armenians made the trip one way and remained (alive) behind in the “holy” land, some in Jerusalem, others in the Sinai. The Greek herbalist Dioscorides lived in Cilicia in retirement when he wrote and illustrated his famous herbal. There is some good voice-activated software for computers that might help with that splinted thumb and maybe vision problems. Dragon makes one thaqt gets a lot of attention on cable. Cheers, Tom
ThomS & friends,
Cilicia: With my new progressive lenses perched on my nose, I am now able to read my own notes and downloads more easily. Your mention of the Crusades reminds me of some other items of historical interest to you (involving Armenians):
“Second Messiah?” by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas. Fascinating reading, which I followed up by finding a very large map of “Civitas Jerusalem” and its many “neighborhoods” surrounding the Temple Mount. Armenians apparently shared their neighborhood with knights of the “white cross” and “rosy cross”.
Ennyway, I seem to have come full circle with the Templars, Phillip le Bel, the Shroud of Turin, the “Krebs Cycle”……Turks, Armenians, Cypriots, Bohemians, and a Czech or two (EllieV and ProfZ)!
Breakfast beckons me to my table overlooking our herb garden. I shall eat, and then continue my translation of eight VMs folios. Our supper will include rice which has had a pinch of saffron added.
A tout a l’heure!
To b. There are four Christian chapels on the Temple Mount: Armenian, Marionite, RC and Greek Orthodox. Because of a little star that the RC wanted over where Jesus was buried, horiffying the other faiths, the Crimean War was untertaken. As Disraeli remarkes to Victoria, “Let me see if I have this right, We propose to join the Turk and fight Christians [the orthodox] Russians over this little star?” Pretty much the way things played out but control of Sevastapol also played a role. The Brits lost gloriously. Two great sweater designs did emerge however: Raglan and Cardigan. Cheers, Tom
Sweater designs: Raglan and Cardigan, I’ve knit my own variations with my own hand-spun churro wool and angora rabbit hair. Fun!
I’ve begun writing up my translations of the various folio’s I’ve already mentioned. Yesterday, I came across one more VERY interesting topic:
Lake Nemi was not only a shrine to Diana/Artemis, but also “a sacred grove”. So, I wasn’t too far off track when I was puzzling about what that woman was holding in her hand while standing by the streamside (next to that mended tear in the manuscript.
I’ll keep in touch, if you do! 🙂
Dear all, In reading around about the origin of the zodiac, I see that Maunder and Olkutt join forces to push for an Armenian source of the zodiac but nudge the origin northward to over 39 degrees north Latitude. In citing Maunder’s book above where Armenia is mentioned but only in passing, I might have loaded the deck in a way. I await the book Diane has recommended for a more balanced approach. The Armenians did have a panther at one time in their zodiac. The Armenians also feared a croc like creature called a “Nhang” that swam,in one of the tributaries of the Euphrates and would drown the unlucky and suck out their blood. Is this “scorpio” in the VM? I am rethinking also the little “suns” that the zodiac nymphs are holding Diane may be correct in thinking they represent a star or stars. I am currently looking at Sirius which was important to Armenians and even cultures as far south as Mali! One of the stars in Orion is also important.
On the Crimean War, I recall from a fine book “The Reason Why” that a French observer of the “Charge of the Light Brigade” into massed Russian cannons observed “This is glorious but it is not war!” Lord Cardigan, a crony of Wellington’s, was great on the parade field but unused to combat. Dept of useless info. Cheers, Tom
Dear all, Why should Americans care at all about the Crimean War? Short answer. Because many of the English troops after the war ended in stalemate, ended up fighting for either the North and South in our own Civil War. Cheers, Tom
Nick, Diane, Ellie, ThomS, ReneZ, and any other persons who might be interested in the stories being told in the “Voynich” manuscript (aka: Boenicke Ms 408):
Using the “Nine Rosettes” folio as my guide, I have located and identified every feature of each and every “Rosette” — and I am now rough-drafting my story of my discoveries by translating the various folios (not only the botanical folios) which refer to Greek/Roman mythology and the physical features of the Alban Hills and Lakes (Lake Alban and Lake Nemi). I have done my best to keep you all posted so that you can “see for yourself” just what I am babbling about.
So, I refer you to my last two searches: “Sacred Grove”–and in particular: Lake Nemi: Diana’s Sacred Grove by Ludovico Pisani, February 16, 2013 (The Global Dispatches) and, secondly: Diana Nemorensis – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Time for me to spend less time online, so that I can write a coherent account of my research and translation of the Vms. The entire manuscript is “all about” the mythic origins of pre-Christian Rome, Frascati, Alban Hills and Lakes Nemi and Alban. My latest download of info deals with the Sacred Grove and shrine to Diana Nemorensis in Lake Nemi.
I far as I can tell, I won’t be infringing on Nick’s editorial works and/or blog presentations. Nick, if you are reading this, please let me know if I’m out of line. Thanx!
To b. If Roca de Papa relates in any way to the Pope, is that castle in the top right rosette going to have swallow tailed battlements, indicating an allegiance to the Holy Roman emperor? The battlements might have been changed which is always possible. Cheers, Tom
I haven’t found a lot of info about Rocca di Papa “commune”. Not a whole lot about Velitrae either, except that A. Kircher identified the castle/fortress in the upper right-most corner as being “Velitrae” (valscorum regni pars). That same structure appears at the top of this blog (Nick uses it as his “headline” on his main page).
The town of Nemi and Lake Nemi, however, has recently re-appeared in current-day discussions on-line. Also, apparently, quite a few artifacts dredged up from the lake bottom have ended up in the museum in Rome. The museum apparently now has a “Kircher” wing/alcove.
Anyway…archaeologists and historians are apparently re-focusing on the historical elements of Frascati and both of the Alban Lakes. Lake Nemi has recently been nicknamed “Diana’s Mirror”. Keep in mind that Artemis (Greek) and Diana (Roman) are one and the same “goddess”. Yesterday I began translating Vms folios 82 and 83 (r and v):
82v: Line 1:
occipteus quadum tenus quadrantis lavatum–eccheumatis
“To begin — to take a bath — pouring out -pots/jars — swiftly– on the spot/here”
The above line of script took me about an hour to “look-up” and record. I’m trying to be patient when it comes to translating transcribing 83v (which I’m fairly certain will be discussing the use of contents those “globes”: fruit of the mandragore/mandrake plant) — we’ll see! I’ll keep you posted.
A tout a l’heure!
For anyone who cares about elephantiasis, I think there is a clear clue in both the botanical and pharmaceutical (recipe) sections on the use of a plant to treat that nasty lymphatic disease/disorder. The botanical is found on f55v lower rt root and the pharma on f99v (lower right). The root and the leaf, respectively, look elephant-related even without straining over much. Elephantiasis is caused either by one or more of several parasites entering the lymph system or simply walking over an irritating earth, often with red clay present, with bare feet. Seven countries in East Africa have the latter problem (podoconiosis) and going barefoot is forbidden in some of those countries. The filarasis type is spread by mosquitoes, and can be hugely disfiguring (up to the waist) while the type spread by walking on irritating earth (high in sodium and/or potassium ions) is largely restricted to the feet (called “mossy foot”); up to 9% suffer from it in Ethiopia. According to Amirdovlat Amasiatsi’s herbal, Armenians suffered from it and used black plantain to treat it. It is normally found, however, in the tropics. The pharma plant sort of looks like a folded up version of that plant. BTW, the plant use disguised as the treated symptom has two of its best exemplars with the VM plants of f55v and f99v. Cheers, Tom
ThomS and any other interested persons:
Folio 83v:
The strange globes are mandrake fruit. The writing under each globe (oxoxaseus) and (otlosecg) is informing us that the juice of the fruits can “blind, darken, obsure, to hide, to numb) AND otlol-um-euseum: “take it easy/ease labor pains”
The writers of the manuscript probably felt that they were discussing “forbidden” topics; and they had to be “discreet” in their behavior and writings. You won’t find the names of the Goddess (Artemis/Diana) anywhere in the manuscript.
I have discovered, for myself, that the entire contents of Boenicke ms 408 eventually lead one on a tortuous path entirely around the Alban Hills and the Alban Lake, Lake Nemi, and on the other side of the Alban Hills to Velitrae and Oscan territory, and back to the environs of Rome and Frascati.
Lake Nemi and its Sacred Grove is where I’ll be ending my dialogue on these (That which brings your……) pages. I’ll still be reading your posts and Ellie Velinska’s posts.
adieu!
to b. I think you could well be correct in your ID of the globes on f83v. They could be the unripe Mandrake fruit (Mayapples in the US) which has some of the properties you describe but glosses over the fact that the fruit can be eaten in small amounts; in large amounts, GI complications set in..The ripe fruit are yellow or orange. The main consequence of eating one of the pleasant smelling fruits is somnolence. Even smelling the aroma of the mandrake fruits was considered a soporific or sedative. The roots are really toxic and contain some of the same bad actors as Belladona, in which genus the Mandrake plant resides. The Mandrake fruit’s extracts are, as you surmise, used to ease birthing pains. My decript of the globe on the left is “ononacht” which I think has something to do with night (“nacht in German, like maybe “one at night”?), the globe on the right I make out as “olachit” which has me baffled. Well b. I guess it is just Nick ‘n’ me at this time unless you rethink your plans? Or did you look up “elephantiasis” and this put you off? The parasitic version would really be horrible. I won’t go there again! Cheers, Tom.
The entire manuscript’s base language is Latin and/or Greco-Latin (where the story being told is referring to Greek legendary characters as well as Roman: Artemis/Diana figures in many of the “bathing” discussions.
Other folios in Boenicke 408 are discussing the pro and cons of different mushrooms (legend of Alcyone and Ceyx), the water Lotus (nelumbo), the water lily (nymphacae), the Clary sage (salvia sclerae), mulberry-morus(that strange fruit which even the Boenicke tentatively identifies as an artichoke) Pyramus and Thisbe, and last but not least — the saffron crocus (maybe Crocus and Smilax).
I’ll be typing-out my rough draft of my findings, so that I can get a coherent story together which might be useful to decipherers and cryptologists as well as historians. I doubt that I’ll have time to debunk or criticize other points of view.
One very interesting item I found several days ago is a wikipedia discussion of Medieval Latin which has an illustration from the manuscript “Carmina Cantabrigiensia”, full identification/title:
folio 436v Codex Cantabrigiensis
Take a good look at the script for each alphabetical character. The “Voynich” manuscript is no longer a mystery to me.
Yesterday, we watched a fairly new video/movie: “Coriolanus” produced by BBC Films/Lonely Dragon Films
Lead actors: Ralph Fiennes, Brian Cox, Gerard Butler
Setting: Volscian Headquarters: Antium Vellitrae, and Volscian city of “Corioles”
So, I again refer y’all to Fr. Kircher’s identification of the landscape/map’s features which appear on Boenicke 408 manuscript’s “Nine-Rosettes” folio (my name for this folio, so that readers could immediately recognize it by the castle/fortress town which is visible on the upper-rightmost corner rosette on the unfolded folio:
Kircher identified that corner “Rosette” as being “VALSCORUM REGNI PARS – Velitrae”
Our host Nick uses that same “Rosette” town as the logo at the top of his main page.
It is getting more difficult to access this discussion page with every month or so that it gets bumped further into the archives. I hope to see you here and there, ThomS. I’ve recently been researching Shakespeare’s plays and his themes based on mythological lovers:
Apparently, “Midsummer Night’s Dream” was based on the legend of “Pyramus and Thisbe”. Some researchers also refer to “Romeo and Juliet” as possibly being based on the legend of “Pyramus and Thisbe”.
The “Blues”. With even a casual glancing over the botanicals, one odd thing will be noticed. Approximately 2/3rds of the flowers or buds or calyxes are blue of either a light, medium or dark hue. In many cases, traces of the original blue ink remains.
Some flowers are not tinted, some are tinted green, and some with alternating red and white petals.some yellowish or tan, but blue greatly predominates.. Clearly a lot of the blue is a recent retouching, sometimes with traces of the paler original ink remaining, sometimes none remains.
I think the VM botanical specimens cannot faithfully represent so many real plants. For example in an English herbal like that of Nicholas Culpeper, they are much less common.
Why then, does the VM have this partiality for blue? Just more disinformation? Is this a “default” color added by an inexperienced would-be herbalist? Or is this a cautionary clue to a whole class of unusual plants with perhaps toxic properties, like deadly nightshade? Cheers, Tom
Dear all, On f51r in the botanical section, there appear to be four very weirdly shaped leaves. I think they are “staghorn” beetles, six legs and a pair for pinching. A spine down the back is indicated by the parallel hatched ribbon. Those beetles did bite. Maybe the range of occurrence helps with the origin of the VM? Cheers, Tom
Tom: personally, I believe that the “heavy” blue was added later (by someone with no obvious understanding of what the text meant), and so I would caution that inferences drawn from its presence may not yield fruitful lines of research. 😉
Nick et al. If it weren’t for some original blue ink here and there (ca. 16% of total), I would be inclined to agree with you that it was some kind of amateurism at work. The traces of the original blue which was I think the most fugative of the colors, makes me wonder though if it had some other intention? For sure nearly all the VM flowers, buds, etc all were retinted and often with a very heavy hand, that would have obscured any original blue or blue-grey inks.. So hard to tell if original ink/wash underlay those.I just put it out there as an FYI and nothing more. I certainly am not planing to go any further with this.
The staghorn beetle and close cousins are ubiquitous, found everywhere but Antarctica, so that seems a dead end. One other point is those little mouse like leaves (f45r) might indicate their use in combatting the plague and I think this has mainly a European -Asia minor range. Until we crack the cipher, the pictorial aspects of the VM are the most approachable for clues. That is expatiating on the obvious, I know. Cheers, Tom
Nick, A punctillio regarding how much of the final VM botanical blue was original. A recheck of the botanicals looking for even minor traces of original blue gives me 24 of 77 blue flowers/buds/petals or ca. 31%. This might indicate that the original colorist (s) were using blue knowingly and intentionally. Later coloring undoubtedly covered up additional original ink.so 31% would represent the lower end of blue usage.
Boenicke 408: Folio 11v:
Line 1: Pabulumox-aesceoaes (sericus?/seresum/Chinese)quolibet sericox especas aesaneus
Pull out your Latin-European dictionaries and have some fun!
Kinda makes one 1dr if the Bombyx mori family ever survived in their wild state.
Here in our part of the US, we have beautiful Luna moths drifting through our walnut groves at night.
🙂
Dear faithful few. As Nick observed long ago, there are some clear examples of scribal notation using the Tironian system for deletions and truncations. That system got so out of control in the medieval period (4K or more) that it gave way to an unannotated Latin of the late medieval or renaissance period. BUT the two scribes of the VM continue the idea of scribal notation but with a real twist. The notation for deletions does away with the conventional overbar and uses disguised overbars, chiefly with two of the gallows where the “flourish” extends left (often over a “c” null). Both scribes use it. Both also use a lot a “c” with a right “)” over it to resemble a backward “S” and this is a truncation note, often I think for “st”. The truly diabolical one is an “n” with a right paren running into it which makes it resemble an “i” tipped ?. It is not the “ich” but rather something like “nd”. The c-c with a curlicule above it is usually “u” I think but sometimes the curlicule is a right paren and indicates a deletion has occurred. These are not all by any means of the private notation the scribes are using and one wonders why they did not stick with T.N. which does appear in a few spots. Too easy to figure out is my guess. But I am thinking we might have gotten a break in that the abbreviations are not an immense number and probably (?) usually indicate a recurring letter has been deleted. One gallows that I have assigned to “h”, usually has a flourish to the left and masks I think a “t”. Here is I think why a simple cipher substituion scheme is made more difficult. One last bitchy note is “c-c)” where the “)” is a subscript making the second c look like a 9. There does appear some difference in the frequency and types of scribal notation between scribes #1 and #2 but no really obvious pattern yet has emerged.
Dear all, Is the Voynich herbal color-coded? One can make a quick guess that “if it isn’t in blue then likely it is in red or a combination of red and blue”. A quick count of the plants indicates that 32 of the VM plants have red in berries, flower petals, calyxes, leaves or even those weird root eyes (f17r). Fourteen have blue and red mixed, not something one sees commonly in nature. I note that colors were used in yin/yang symbology; orange for yin (female) characteristics and azure for yang (male) Maybe blue is being used for an herb treating male disorders, red for female and red/blue for both? Amasiasti in his herbal is often very specific whether a plant is used mainly for a male or female complaint? The Armenians often used yin/yang symbology althought it was more common in the Far East, having been created 3-4C BC by the Chinese. Is there method in the VM madness or just madness in one peruser?
Dear all, Diane raised the question (rhetorical as I recall) in one of her blog topics as to whether the herbal drawings were the work of one or were perhaps the work of more delineators. I think it is a tricky question for one has to 1) mentally subtact all color and 2) take into account examples of mnenomism (term used by Diane) like animal-shaped leaves and roots, etc. I will hazard a guess or “hunch” if you will, that all of the plants were drawn by one artist, and a skilled one at that. Most roots end with a characteristic little point, as do many leaves. The stem lines are carefully parallel. When leaves are indicated as harvested, the little stumps are all about the same length from the main stem. So at the moment, I’m inclined to give one artist alone all the credit. Just too bad the colorists who followed lacked his skills.
The thing I’ve just realized (recently) is that nowhere in the discussion/script which accompanies each botanical specimen is there any nomenclature (identifying commentary). What one does find, however, are (1) it’s uses (2) it’s origins (3) and sometimes references to the mythology behind each particular item of discussion.
An especially brief but very disclosing folio is Boenicke 408, folio 11v, of which the first line reads as:
Pabulumox-aes ceoaes sericineus sericum quolibet ///
sericox especas aesaneus
The English translation (rough) is:
Fodder for wax-colored …………Chinese Silk Species
The “pablum/chopped food” are the leaves of the morus alba (white mulberry tree). The only mention of the tree, itself, only appears as the first word on line 5 (arbor).
Line 6 may have a “pun” written: That very strange “word” at the end of line 6 perhaps is referring “blattae” and “blattis-peres-us-a-um” : “moth-eaten”. I think the scribes were doing a great job of obscuring all the details of the methods of keeping the cocoon intact (by killing the insect inside the cocoon before it can eat through the multiple layers of very fine thread) which, if not broken, can be wound off onto a reel. Estimates have been given for the length of that single thread as being as much as a mile.
While reading my way through piles of notes/dowloads, I came across a very interesting reference to silk-worm products being made in Jamestown, here in the United States.
ThomS: Do you find any of this to be as fascinating as I do?
🙂
b. Silk production is fascinating alright. But I may have mislead folks into thinking that silk was being produced on Chios during the time of the likely creation of the VM. According to pretty much accepted timelines, silk making was not introduced to Chios until after 1492 when Jews were expelled from Spain. These “Sephardis” were experienced in silk making, diamond cutting, paper making etc., The Ottomans installed 200 Sephardis or so on Chios and silk was made there but evidently of a poor coarse quality,not matching the good stuff from China. It does not rule out though earlier work by the locals on silk making. I am guessing that the Sephardi implants did recognize some suitable plants and maybe as you indicate, the plant on f11v is one such plant. Recall that some enterprising morons in New England brought over a moth from France for making silk but these got totally out of control when the test moths were juist dumped. These became our “gypsy” moth plague. They became such a huge pest in New England that Henry Thoreau, among other annoyances, had his gutters pulled down by the weight of the caterpillars.
Dear all, More on Yin/Yang. I think there is some pretty obvious use of Y/Y in the VM. The one that really screams “yang” are those 5 classic yangs on f38r complete with the usual lttle black spot that meant in TCM, a trace of yin. There is a huge amount of weirdness in TCM, with hollow organs being male(yang), solid ones being female (yin). The clock was rigged with 8 symbols for all yang (all yin) part yang, part yin etc. Likewise the year. Yin was darkness, yang lightness. North was yin in the Northern hemisphere as it is less sunny than the South (yang). On the question of whether yin was left or right we get ino the weeds quickly with whether yin is right (usual interpretation) but facing the viewer or being in the object and morons go on for a lot of the blogspace dealing with this key (to them) issue as tatoos are being considered. Moving right along, I think the weird leaves of f54v represent the bladder (a male or yang organ) and those root lumps are bladder stones.The blue flowers are yang colored and face away probably shunning direct light (or maybe indicating eyes with cataracts as I first thought), The following are organs associated with yin: heart, spleen, liver, lungs and heart. Yang organs are largely organs of elimination or digestion. Nothing there to brag on for males but I suspect the VM herbs incorporate a lot of yin/yang symbology and this makes them cryptic to western eyes. Recall also that during the middle ages, actually a lot of dissections were being done, even by the RC church as potential saints were thought to have internal signs of holiness. It was only the habit of boiling down the bones of dead crusaders for shipment home that got some popes upset and this practise was banned and the dead crusader was instead planted where he fell. Papal bulls banning dissection of crusaders was misinterpreted as banning all autopsies but many were done legally in the 12th and 13C in Northern Italy. The Armenians were very active in this area early on but I don’t thing this was any kind of distinguishing practise. Galen did some in the 3rd C on gladiators.
Dear all. “If it isn’t port, it’s starboard!” and even a cursory reading around on yin-yang philosphy gives one the feeling that it might explain a lot of VM ideas or illustrations. I will try and avoid the weedier stuff (like circles and angles, numbers, temperatures, up and down, and phases of the moon) but note that directionality plays a major role even to whether something is observed having a clockwise (cw) or counterclockwise(ccw) orientation. For example, the twisted leaves on f51v are cw on the right (yangs, male) and ccw on the left (yins, female) FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF THE VIEWER! The same holds true of the tortured leaves of f52v. On simple directionality- note that the plant of f55r has leaves on the left stem on the left (yang, male); on both sides on the central stem and on the right side on the rightmost stem (yin, female). These are each topped by a female red yang symbol in the buds with male color (blue) in the flower petals) The “sails” on the three stems of f46v are all on the right (yin),whereas on f31v we find leaves to the right (yin) and blossoms to the left (yang) suggesting female use for the leaves; male use for the blue blossoms and the centered berries. On f31r, things are reversed with leaves on the left and blossoms on the right. On f32r, we find yin/yang symbology in the roots with the tiny roots all facing right (yin). This may be true also of f29v. I think twisted and untwisted roots might also be using yin/yang symbols respectively but I have yet to find support for that idea. Broken lines _ _ (yin) and unbroken _ (yang) are very common also in labelling concepts such as times and compass points. I think it might be seen on f66v. This is a work in progress and until we can actually find the use of the VM plants, it remains hypothetical. Yin/yang uses light (yang) and darkness (yin) a lot but in the VM there is not a hint anywhere of shadow. I think that bloosoms facing away from the viewer are an indication of lighting but am not certain how it is to be interpreted. Are blossoms “shunning light” or is phototropism being indicated.?
ThomS,
I just can’t resist a pun: I just can’t resist reSPanding:
Shakespeare’s works are being referred to throughout the Vms (Boenicke ms 408), including puns galore:
Midsummer Night’s Dream, in particular, has puns within puns: Pyramus and Thisbe, which theme is also incorporated into “Romeo and Juliet”.
Even the identity of the “berry” in vms folio 11v is obscured by the use of diversionary commentary. It was only when I found the Latin word “pabulumox” and “sericeneus” was I able to confirm my identification of the tree — which leaves kept the silk industry alive for umpteen jillion years worldwide. The “arbor” (the other word for tree) was/is “morus alba”.
Shakespeare has “Pyramus and Thisbe” attempting to meet under the mulberry tree.
Depending on how valuable a particular botanical item may be, the scribes apparently had discretionary responsibility for the discussion which appears for each specimen.
So, puns aside, I’d like to refer you to a wiki file:
CarminaBurana2.jpg I’m pretty sure you will have fun with it! Perhaps your daughter may find it very interesting too?
beady-eyed wonder-er
Dear all, A link that will be olds to some but might be news to others is: http://alchemyguild.memberlodge.org/Default.aspx?pageId=311915. This gives a brief history of the Alchemy Guild (AG) where a lot of the usual Voynich suspects are discussed although there is no mention of the VM. There is however a mention of the use of yin/yang symbology on the entrance to the alchemy guild hall in Cesky Krumlov (southern Bohemia) built in 1565 by Anton Michael von Ebbersbach who seems to have done quite well out of alchemy. Nick has already discussed one of this number, Taddeas Hajck, who supervised the alchemical gardens under Wilhelm von Rosenberg, later managed by Terpenec. One feature of alchemical botanical gardens was the growing of “spagyric” herbs where the herb would be “calcined” (i.e. heated to ashes) and the ashes redissolved to form tinctures or aqueous solutions, the placebo of the day! The AG still exists and is open to contributions. It survives in the US (that figures!). Perhaps they will make available “scrying” mirrors for viewing the past or future? They have an archive of alchemical manuscripts but I don’t want to go further into the weeds on this one.
Dear all, Here is a spendid link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gjN5yTmO8A. This shows an Armenian zodiac from an illuminated manuscript of the 15thC. A chorus of angelic Armenian women accompany the U tube video it with a lovely repetitive chant. Note the weirdness of nearly all the zodiac signs. A crab with 12 legs, one zodiac character (Aries) is ridden by a male with a sword; another (Taurus) by a woman with a stringed instrument .Capricorn is among the strangest with a six-armed male holding a crown, a cross, etc. Leo and Sagittarius have some parallel hatching There is more human intervention going on here than ususal for example with Aries, Taurus, Scorpio, Pisces. The ms is in horrible shape but the illumination is well done with mainly red and blue paints. Note the Latin numbering and what appears here and there to be arabic. This must have been some epic book as the folio numbers reach 135 by the time Pisces is shown. I seached in vain for the VM scorpio monster and got this instead. Looks like paper not vellum/parchment. Gemini is really weird with a book held by the two headed creature in one hand and what looks like a head (?) in the other. The Armenians were a pretty advanced society in terms of astronomy/astrology making me think this zodiac was par for the times and the VM zodiac rondels were a renaissance creation. Maybe with the exception of Scorpio? Note however a dualism in the VM that is not common with European zodiacs. The VM has several zodiac periods split into a light and dark part. Aries and Taurus for example with Cancer having two crabs.
To b. You may well be correct but my impression is that Will Shakespeare coming from a well known RC family had more to fear in Merrie Olde England under Eliz I than he did from his works being circulated in Spain or Italy.
Whoa, ThomS! Whee!!! I just HAD to get up and dance to the “chant”!
It sounded something like zum ba ye-yee…..but the rhythm was for one of the oldest Armenian/Greek dances: the Syrto. This dance is still the “National dance of Greece” with its origins lost to history; Armenians also call it “their dance”.Fun!
Historians seem to mix the terminology of “alchemy” with “medicine”. Philosophers seem to be a little more “on track” but still seem to mix “metaphors”, so to speak, while trying to illustrate the doings of the gods and goddesses and their various curses versus benevolences. To my eyes, ennyway, a good portion of Boenicke 408 is trying to portray the multitude of traditions built upon farming practices and the phases of the moon, and the solar equinoxes.
My husband just came home from mentoring at our local Agricultural Center. I’m going to see if I can get him to dance with me. A tout a l’heure !
ThomS,
Carmina Burana — and the rearing pure white horse which is “smack dab in the middle” of that ancient manuscript:
Lippizaner horses were/are still trained to dance “en volente”. I’m only mentioning them here because that white horse was central in that same manuscript which enabled me to translate folio 11v of Boenicke 408.
Carmina Burana and Carmina Cantabrigiensis manuscripts have contributed quite a bit to my education/translation of the clues and discussions which are written in an archaic “Southern Gothic miniscule” (Benedictine) hand.
I doubt my contributions to discussion on Nick’s, Rich’s, or Elmar’s blogs are going to “go anywhere” but into their archives. Still it is an ongoing puzzle which I am planning to publish somehow in the not-too-far distant future.
Time for brunch! More later!
beedee
Dear all, While chemistry owes much to alchemy, one major ingredient of a true science is often missing from alchemy and that is “the experiment”. To believe somehow that the benefits of a plant can be obtained by burning it to leave a little pile of ashes (presumably the essence of the plant) and then recovering the benefits by adding some alcohol or water and consuming some of this is just nutso. Use of the whole plant or parts for medicinal use had a long and useful history particularly under the Arabs but the guys operating out of Cesky Krumlov in Bohemia were not much on experimentation and heavy on arcane dogma and numerology which is anathema to any scientific undertaking. To b. Thanks for the info on that Armenian chant. Many linguists note that the Armenian language was heavily influenced by classical Greek.
Dear all, There may an Armenian under every stone but what seems true is that they were a very parapetetic people. They were in Greece from the 10C onward, particularly Thrace, Thessaly and Macedonia, often as merchants. As b notes, they shared dances. The Armenians were a major component in the Byzantine empire and often provided troops to the emperor so they ended up all over, settling also in Crete and Corfu often as a buffer against the Turk. In fact the struggles of both Armenians and Greeks against the Turk provided a strong bond due to a mutual interest in defense. The Armenians in Greece are described in the medieval period as blonde with blue eyes, although that description probably no longer fits most Armenians. Despite different flavors of Christianity, Armenians built many churches (such as a famous one on Crete) in territory nominally controled by the Greek orthodox faith. Armenian architects under the Ottomans, were renowned for their mosque designs. The most famous in Istanbul and Erdine were attributed to Sinan, an Armenian.
ThomS,
In more recent history (Greek, Armenian, Turk) we have music and a dance which apparently developed in the period between the two world wars: Rebetika
One favorite dance and song is “Misirlou”. I only mention it on these back pages so that I can illustrate another way of preserving history besides manuscripts and/or books.
By the way, I’m also investigating the possibility that the Vms (Boenicke 408) may contain more than a few folios of Goliardic/Macaronic writings/songs/parodies. Funny! Punny!
😉
Thomas,
The tradition of combined astronomy-geography goes back certainly to Roman times, and earlier. But that’s Armenia in geographic terms. It is an area whose populations have been so greatly and so constantly disrupted, and transplanted and re-planted that care has to be taken to define ‘Armenian’ at any given time. The imagery you describe derives from an interesting meld of influences. It’s not ‘Armenian’ in the indigenous sense.
Thomas
I’ve had another look at the YouTube video. Thanks so much for mentioning it here. The chief influences are Arab, Egyptian and Persian. So I think it copies one earlier produced in Baghdad. There was a massive trade in books there, especially during the 10th-12thC and the syncretism here makes that the most likely source – IMO.
Not everything made in Baghdad was written in Arabic, of course. But very fine. Pity the person who posted it didn’t give details of the manuscript(s) from which the pictures come.
Thomas, I must protest. Someone else deserves the credit for “mnenomism” which is a term I’ve not only failed to use, but failed to learn before reading in your post of March 3rd.
One of the other Voynich bloggers, perhaps?
Cilicia (references have been made as to this part of the world being the earliest cultivation of the saffron Crocus on the European continent.
Another item I’m bringing up here is mention of Templar Knights making their headquarters on Cyprus during the Crusade years. So, I’ve been following up some of the hinted history which appears on Carmina Burana: The central figure of a rearing white horse may be a casual reference to the special breed of horse first being bred for knights in armor: The Lippizan: as recently as the 20th century, these horses were still “Dancing in Air”.
Diane, have you taken a look at some of archaelogical work which apparently is still ongoing at the “Sacred Grove and Shrine of Diana” at Lake Nemi, Italy? Lake Nemi’s nick-name is “Diana’s Mirror”.
🙂
Addendum, clarification of my last post:
Cilicia: ThomS referred to that historic part of the world which we “know” as Armenia, several weeks ago. While I was translating lines 3 and 7 of the Vms folio 35r, I read the glyphs as translating to either cellexeus or calixisis or cilicia.
Line 7 of this same folio translated to the Latin croceusaum ellecoes ceotleus “Saffron yellow golden”
The first line below the blossom (on the stem) translates to
Especiam …a aes am cceoeaes crocoseam
Second line is repetitive nomenclature terminology which ends in the word to “recognize/gather”
Third line, last reference on the right side of stem:
aes a i s a ex aes geus n
I could go on tediously, but I also confirmed that the illustrators also tried their best to accurately emphasize the important part of the crocus: the stamens and pistils — and that part of the flower may have been overpainted at a much later time.
Fun!
bdid1dr
My line dropped just as I was sending an earlier response. But to avoid taking up too much of Nick’s comment-space, perhaps we could we talk about your work in the forum?
Diane, and Nick (if he should be monitoring this morning): Have I misunderstood the intent of your blog? Diane, it is very difficult for me to maintain a discussion with you on your blog, as far as finding “common ground” for any particular item of discussion. Therefore, since Nick’s blog discusses cipher mysteries, and particularly the Voynich manuscript, I’m not too sure how I am inappropriately posting to his blog.
I’m writing this note after having just visited the link you referred a while ago. I shall continue to post on this particular page unless Nick indicates that he would rather I not do so.
My reference to Lake Nemi is relevant to the “Nine Rosettes” discussion: The Alban LAKES (two of them) were, and still are, of interest to historians and archaeologists.
I do my best to stick to the point with any of the folios, and back up my discussion by referring to my sources of information, as well as presenting the latin dialogues which are obscured by archaic scribal shorthand.
Occasionally I do drop by your blog and Ellie V’s. Sometimes I leave a comment, sometimes I don’t (if there doesn’t seem to be a portal or space for discussion). Cya around now & then.
Thomas, to continue our discussion re “Euro-Armenian” historic events, I’d like to clarify my discussion in re Artimis/Diana and her sacred groves (oak trees, not olive) which were places of sanctuary for prepubescent girls before their marriages — and also as a place where mid-wives could prepare the women for childbirth. So, I’ll write more later this
afternoon when I return from town.
Bd1dr
You misunderstand. The topic of Nick’s post is not the Voynich manuscript and people coming to read comments on his post may have no interest in the manuscript. So to keep comments relevant to the post, and allow a long exchange of views, how about making a new forum thread instead?
To Diane, I know you did not use the word “mnenomism” per se but did refer to mnemonic devices or clues and others, including me, have used lengthier expressions as “embedded clues” or “inferred uses”. I only meant the expression for that “concept” was first seen by me on your web site and its terseness was attractive. I hope we do not have to footnote “words” at this stage, and since I think it is a good succinct word for a pretty complex operation, I plan on giving it more of a workout in the future. No offense intended. I did not mean to say the word was “coined” by you but meant only the concept was packaged by you in reference to the VM herbals and here we are in total agreement.
To all, The VM zodiac pages seem to represent a 12 month calendar with 30 day months but it is very odd in mixing the zodiac periods with an “occitan(?) month name. I think the missing 5 days in this hybrid calendar are indicated by 2 stars in the pisces rondel and one each in scorpio, virgo and leo. I think the Vernal Equinox is shown in the “lighter” 15d part of Aries but to get the date as close fo March 21, one has to number the darker version first, starting with the odd “male” nude holding the snake (March 1) and numbering counterclockwise from the inside circle to outside and thence inside-to-outside on the light ram. If one jumps to 11 o’clock on the outer circle, then the VE (nymph with elaborate decoration above and below) unfortunatelely falls on March 22, not the expected 20th or 21. The nymph at 12 o’clock of the light ram outer circle falls on March 30. So the whole calendar is “all March” but called “april”. Here lies a major problem with blending the zodiac house with a 30 day calendar such as used by the Armenians and some others. Many Armenian days are named using the Zoroastrian calendar.The Armenian year began with Aries (March 21), as did most(?) zodiac calendars and that fits in the pagination of the VM. Note that Pisces has a decorative border under the inner circle marking the end of the calendar year and 9 tubs (originally holding 10 nymphs) lie above it. I think these are 9 1/2 extra days being substrated from the Armenian year and slightly before the 10 days subtracted by Pope Gregory in 1585.
I will try and get from the library number (3884) on that U-tube Armenian zodiac, the date and place. It is not in my Stone et al. opus.
Thomas, I’m replying to you in the forum
On the U-tube Armenian zodiac video. The source is a ms held in the Matenadaran library of Yerevan, Armenia and numbered 3884. If one enters “Matenadaran 3884” on Google, a lovely illustrated 18 pages of Armenian art pops up as the first entry. It includes the illustration for Sagittarius and indicates two dates for the zodiac containing it, 1461 and 1478 which has me puzzled. I am guessing two scribes were involved and not that two copies of this work exists; otherwise we would have two ms numbers. The source is unknown to me at present.The Yerevan library has the largest collection of Armeniana, including works in other languages, even Japanese. Other famous Armenian libraries exist in Jerusalem, Venice (island San Lazaro in the Venetian lagoon) and Vienna.
On the point of what does being Armenian actually mean? I think the analogy to being a Jew is apt. Armenians, whereever they ended up, kept the same language and religion. Two slightly different versions (eastern and western) of the language existed and two main Christian religious practises also.
Diane,
If Nick has a problem with my posts, here on his recovered blog-page, I’m sure he’ll let me know.
In so far as the various forums with which we were all communicating while Nick and his many friends were conferencing at Frascati (overlooking the Alban Lakes and Father Kircher’s Jesuit Headquarters) :
“Round n’ Round” was initiated by me, as a peace-keeping measure when you immediately attacked Ellie’s first post to Nick’s website. Do you even remember my intervention until Nick could get back from Frascati?
Note that I have tried to “bear with” your criticisms and maneuvers to control or divert various conversations/contributions on NICK”S forum pages.
I have been gradually weaning myself from Nick’s blog by posting only on this discussion page. I’m fairly certain that Nick understands this. So, if what ThomS and I have been discussing bothers Nick, I’m pretty sure Nick will indicate as much.
I do not have the means or latest and greatest “peripherals” for web-posting of photos and scans (which seem to be required equipment for maintaining an illustrated blog).
My apologies, Nick, if I have been “hogging band-width” or whatever other inconveniences I may have been overusing.
beady-eyed-wonder
Dear ThomS,
I apologize if you “got stuck in the middle” of the latest exchange of niceties. Over the past forty years, nearly all of my friends have been Greek/Cypriot, Armenian, Jewish, Turkish, Polish, Czech, and plain old “American polyglot”. I’m Scots/Irish, German/Swiss, and possibly French/Canadian on my orphaned Mother’s side. As my Dad used to say: “Mutts”
Heh!
Thomas, Thank you very much for the reference.
D
bdid1dr
Nick can be so subtle about that sort of thing that sometimes a third parthy has to explain: and that in itself is problematic. A classic example is the cake-cartoon, which was ‘explained’ to me by referring me to another of Nick’s pages of which I had no knowledge till then. I read about Mr.Fell with interest, but am undecided about any relevance to cartoon.
Dear all, Well maybe a few of us have worn out our welcome on Nick’s various websites but Nick has certainly never indicated this and blogs himself frequently on various Voynich topics, such as recently his hypothesis on the “stretch” gallows. I think, in fact, that a wide range of topics appear to be tolerated and Nick himself will respond to many, such as to me on “silk making on Chios” or others that might appear to be topics really peripheral to Voynich research. I think a few of us have assumed a “let every flower bloom” attitude on Nick’s part, If I have misunderstood this (and I may be the major offender on this score), then a word to the wise from Nick would be in order and not taken with any offense at all. Cheers, Tom
Tom: “let every flower bloom” sums my feelings up well, particularly in view of the wide and strange range of flowers both in the Voynich Manuscript and in the Voynich research community. 🙂
Nick and ThomS,
Slings and arrows were directed toward Ellie on Ellie’s own blog yesterday.
Dear Nick and Thomas,
Several days ago, my husband brought home a plant to which I had referred on Nick’s Irony and Brackets page:
Salvia Sclarae
My point in mentioning it, herein, is that I am on the verge of tears, but don’t necessarily need to use any of the Clary seeds to clear my vision. As long as Nick will allow us to use this topic-page for various “takes” on any particular aspect of the Voynich (or other possibly related) manuscripts, I think we will have a terrific venue for intellectual discourse and discovery.
From the bottom of my heart, I thank you, Nick!
beady-eyed wonder
Nick,
Well said that man!
bdid1dr
Better have an idea criticised in a blogpost (as most are) where each person speaks for himself, than on a mailing list where the risk of partisanship and pack-attacks are a constant risk. There, it can matter most “who” had an opinion than whether the opinion was justified.
On the other hand, each person gives a personal opinion on a blog. Elmar Vogt, for example, couldn’t understand how tide calculations were made by a ‘compass-clock’ in medieval times, and for that reason criticised what he thought was my describing a method for calculating sequential lunar phases.
I don’t think I ever did manage to clarify the difference sufficiently for him – but the point is that there was nothing outrageous about his putting his emphatic criticisms in comments to that post – it was the right and appropriate place.
The same applies with any Voynich blog you care to consider.
Perhaps that’s why some Voynicheros prefer web-pages. No comments or conversations entered into?
Diane
ThomS,
I tried to download the pdf on Matanadaran but was unsuccessful. I’ll try another approach later. Thanks for the reference!
Well, with the approach of Spring, I give my Opanci a buffing and then type up another batch of “cue cards” for the hand signals I give out to my dance students after having taught them the Syrto, Cretiko, Kalamatiano, Hasaposerviko, and Tsamiko …….Fun!
Somewhere, not too long ago, I left step directions for the Syrto (I think?) on these pages. Ennyway, y’all, find a Greek food & dance festival somewhere in your area and welcome the rites of Spring with light feet and some fantastic food!
Nick, Evharisto!
Nick, Thanks for your courteous expression of hospitality! I would not have expected otherwise.
To all, Re that “Armenian” zodiac. I have traced it to Julfa on the Arax river, a large community of Armenians located near Isfahan, Iran. The image for Sagittarius derives from Parthian (Persian) imagery (hats off to Diane) and goes back as far as 12 th C. It appears also in a book by Mnac’akayan “Armenian Decorative Art” referenced in a work by Bautrusaitis, 1986 on Armenian Studies (ed. Dickran Kouymjian). Not clear who the scribe(s) was/ were but I am going to let this rest for the moment.
Thos,
Thanks for the ‘hats off’ but it wasn’t a difficult one – I’ve been analysing imagery since the mid ’70s.
The voynich poses more complex problems, I assure you, but the connection to that part of Iran (for some sections) is just as clear.
(but don’t let my nonchalance fool you. I like the odd compliment, too)
bdid1dr,
Here’s a slightly friendlier way to navigate Matanadaran MS 3884, via Google Docs:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx2ZxPLdifaocEFsNjcyMDRJQk0/edit
Nick, ThomS (& hello, Tricia!)
I have continued to match the Vms scriptorial offerings with the Latin verses of “Dum Diane vitrea” (excerpted by Wikipedia):
So far I have found similarities of wording (in Dum Diane) which match the illustration’s commentary of the strange objects which appear on Vms folio 83v.
I’m reserving some thoughts until I can finish the translation right on through its last set of verses (8 sets). It seems to get a little more “scurrilous” (Goliardic?) nearer to the end.
More later, as I progress.
Dear all, Another attempt to get Papalini’s map of Chios town without the right border being truncated indicated “vecchiachios” to be a good search term, strangely enough though not “vecchia-scio”. Unfortunately the hybrid Italian-Greek term turned up a map of Chios town as a very low resolution gif file but at least it is not truncated, like the common Wiki version. I now have the stupid thing as a biscuit-sized background screen on my gov monitor.
I cannot access a lot of good stuff with this computer, chiefly from the VM forum, as these attempts generate “access denied” messages. The gov is also unhappy with a lot of searches on Iranian topics. Persia, no problem.
Well the untruncated Papalini map does reveal another penisula of Chios town to the north east and if I can get my son to help me with transposing this thing into Adobe, maybe I can expand the thing a bit more. I think it might explain more of that upper right VM rosette.
I did get some useful stuff on vecchiachios (= “old chios” in Italian), including some Italian handwriting from the 15C which certainly resembles some of the marginalia of the VM as Nick has pointed out. An account of the Genoese Guistiniani family’s control of Chios in the medieval period mentions numerous inflows of refugees from Ottoman harassment and because nearlby Smyrna had a sizeable Armenian population, I think Armenians might have been among them.
Somehow, the Vms folio reference # did not post. That is Vms folio 83v — which has a pair of mandrake fruits which have been captioned by the scribes as:
“ox ox a S eus” = to blind, darken, obscure, to hide
“otiol eusium” or “otiolum” = to take it easy, or ease (pain?)
The elaborate initial letter which begins the discussion below those objects is referring to “balnearisusmeus”
Thanks Dave & ThomS!
Though I was unable to enlarge the print I was able to admire the icons. Whenever I go to a church festival, I visit with the ladies who maintain the “Philoptochos” booth. I also ask if the church sanctuary is open for visitors who may want to meditate in the silence, regardless of one’s religion.
In recent years, Eritrean and Ethiopian refugees (and some “head-scarved” women also) to the United States have been sponsored by various orthodox organizations. Well, that’s enough “asides” from me. I do my best to stick to the subjects of discussions…….mutter-mutter……
Diane and anyone still interested: Several weeks ago I referred to Fr. Kircher’s maps of the Alban Lakes:
Instead of a “compass rose”, he indicates, apparently the most important feature of navigation (land or water?) as being “tramontane”. So, if any of “y’all” have a copy of Jocelyn Godwin’s discussion of some of Fr. Kircher’s works, check out the engraving which is labeled ” Delineatio Crateris Lacus Albani”. Smack dab in the middle of the Lake is the compass. From that piece of information, one can line up and label ALL of the features which appear on the “Nine-Rosettes” unfolded folio”.
What is even more helpful is that Father Kircher also went into considerable detail about the ancient towns and Villas of Frascati, the Alban Hills, and even a little bit about Coriolanus’ difficulties with the Volsci/Vellitraean “neighbors”.
Fascinating! 🙂
Bd1dr
‘Tramontane (over the mountains) was the colloquial term used in Italy for north and its wind.
People would also say that a person had “lost his tramontane” as we would say ‘lost his bearings’.
Dave and Thomas – you might enjoy some of the astronomical figures illustrated on this site.
I’d meant to save them for a later post, but the bibliography and star-names are also helpful.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=833
Thomas,
I assume you know that the Julfa community was largely a result of deliberate re-planting of the community and subsequently the centre of a ‘trade diaspora’ as current terminology has it.
If you look at astronomical imagery from al-Sufi and then al-Tusi, you’ll see that both display a degree of syncretism, but the imagery in that ms is closer to al-Tusi. However, illustrations for al-Tusi’s manuscript also shows features which link it not only to Islamic custom as such, but indicate a direct transmission from that region ~ very possibly originating in the old BMAC-Indo-Greek (and Parthian region). Closest to some (I’m thinking here of one example for Gemini) is the style of ivories found at Begram and dated to the 1st-2ndC AD. A very similar base-stratum in the Vms imagery, especially the astronomical imagery, an details of f.86v.
So I do think you’re in roughly the right area, and though the time is rather late, the imagery’s heritage is clear, and comparable. So good find!
PS I wonder if you and ddid1dr would consider joining me in a ‘circle’ where we can use our own bandwidth to talk?
Thanx for the invitation, Diane!
As I have mentioned several times before, I have occasionally visited your various blogs — only to disappear into cyberspace shortly after linking.
Has anyone “checked out” the references I made, several months ago, to the “Treaties of Nymphaeae” (there were two)? Very interesting “history”. I think I also referred to “Sabir”. The reason I mention Sabir, in this post, is because I am seeing (more recently) some resemblances to another “casual” language: Goliard and/or “Macaronic” verses appearing in the “Carmina Cantabrigiensia” and “Carmina Burana” Wikipedia will even translate the medieval documents — without referring to Carl Orf, who put O Fortuna (a very dark manuscript) to music which, today, announces the “Bride’s Wedding March” ! (exclamation mark is mine)
The Vms isn’t necessarily Goliard, but does seem to use a lot of scribal “shortcut/default/abbreviations” in the commentary.
BTW: Yesterday, after visiting EllieV’s blog, I found a full-size photocopy of Voynich folio 33v which J. H. Tiltman had attempted to decode. I have already begun to translate it.
It just “breaks my heart” to realize how very little of his efforts appear in Mary D’Imperio’s publication. Anyway, ThomS, you may have the means to access Tiltman’s document I.D. number and files. It is a very long URL, so all I’ll refer to, here, is :
DOCID: 631091
I am full-tilt into translating “The Brig’s” unsolved “V-mystery”, at least folio 33v.
Cya later!
Bid1dr –
I have only one blog – sorry to hear it keeps throwing you into cyberspace.
D
– only one blog open to the public. My research-progress blogs were closed when the research period ended.
D
No wonder the Brig was unable to crack the code in Voynich Manuscript folio 33v!
The first thing I’ve discovered about most of the botanical folios I’ve been translating is that they do not immediately identify the plant. In the case of folio 33v, the first two lines are discussing a “curialim sanatio” (an ointment) for scabies:
“Scabioseum” .
bdidir
Dictionary?
Bdidr
Of course, if what you’re trying to suggest is that this site, which has been a refuge for some Voynicheros has become a different kind of asylum, i think you join quite a long line of persons who’s agree. But still a poor word for it.
Diane,
I’m not implying anything. As far as Nick’s blog being an asylum of any kind (your word for it), I’d rather call it an open, friendly, informative forum.
If I demonstrate some bias toward Mary D’Imperio’s publication, I try to back up my viewpoint or discovery by citing my research. So, have any one of you already visited the US Government’s publication of some John H. Tiltman’s efforts to decode the Vms?
Yesterday I did a rapid translation of Vms folio 33v:
The first line of script begins with” “Curalium sanatio, scabioseum”
The second line begins with “telecaeseus (of soil/earth/dirt)” and continues to give directions for pulping the plant and mixing the pulp with fat/oil.
The third and fourth lines of script continue with what appears to be almost endless, unecessary repetitious nomenclatural phrasing. Probably the “medician”s attempt to emphasize the importance of following directions exactly.
We’ll see! Poor “Brig” — he was so close to a solution. Perhaps in this case, a solution for an ointment remedy?
😉
Diane: if the mailing list is an asylum, who’s in charge? 🙂
Furthermore, line four of Vms folio 33v: The scribe has “reversed” what I call the “TL” consonant, so we are looking at a new form — “LT” — rather than “TL” or “LL” (those “telephone pole” letters which I have consistently been able to “translate” for subject matter. So, that first word on line four can be read as “..lt-otl-a-s”. I put dots in front of that word, because it appears that the scribe MAY have been trying to indicate a word such as OT-LA-EAS or even OATLAS…
Archaic latin uses forms of oa, ui, iu, for words beginning with U, V, W, and Y etcetera. Ennyway, I’ve reiterated my point of view perhaps too many times, already. I sure would like to see signs of anyone following up on my supposed conjectures B4 arbitrarily dismissing them as “nonsensical” .
Big Smile! (an old favorite television show: “Smile! You’re on Candid Camera”)
beady-eyed wonder 🙂
Dear all, I have given up for the moment, trying to find a map of Chios town on isle of Chios done by Davide Papalini. Lots of publications use his map (it is in the public domain) but either truncate the right side or use a very poor resolution (189 x 150 pixels). I did find though quite by chance a pretty fair map of the island of Chios (ca. 1520) done by an Arab cartographer. This shows Chios town with mosques (3 or possibly 4) and does fill out the right side of the environs of Chios town. A fine map that I think was used by Papalini can be seen on a wall in the villa Guistiniani (Bassano Romano Guisiniani Palace) in Viterbo (south of Genoa). The control of Chios by a company controlled by G. and the Genoese was the source of loads of ducats.
To Diane, I was aware of some Iranian connections with Armenians going back to Amasiasti but was not up on the medieval Armenian trading networks. Thanks for the tip. The mysterious “scorpio” of the VM zodiac pages seemed to me to represent a “Nhang” or “Vishap” (both Iranian words), a fearsome croc-like creature.
The Armenian calendar of 30 day months is greatly different from the calendar “months” of the VM,. For example the extra 5 days comprised a13th month following their August (narwasard=nava sarada=new year), 11 Aug-9 Sept). They continued with this calendar until the 18th C. Now I am playing with the idea that the scribbled in month names in Occitan are ahead by one month, i.e. april is actually march. This would be a natural error in going with the zodiac periods. I am hoping that the pagination of the VM is reliable for getting the sequence of “calendar” months correct. BTW the link for the “Arab” mapof Chios (Italian scio) is: http://www.giustiniani.info/chios.html
I will continue using Nick’s pages so long as Nick continues to be a welcoming host.
Tom: here’s another one for your collection, this time from 1599 – http://www.sanderusmaps.com/od/our-catalogue/detail/166372/antique-map-bird's-eye-view-of-chios-by-braun-and-hogenberg-/ … only 500 euros. 😉
To all, Dave’s link is more direct than the search I suggested but the goal posts are the same. The Sagittarius on page 3 was correctly doped out by Diane ab initio (my guess) probably in part by recognizing the symbology of the tail of the centaur having a monster’s head which the Parthians/ Persians came up with as early as the 12thC and which the Armenians assimilated into their own zodiac. The author of that pamphlet on Armenian studies notes that the Matenadaran library in Yerevan, Armenia dealt in the medieval period mainly with religious texts (they have over 5000 bibles) and this completely secular zodiac was unusual. The most spectacular holding of the Mat. is a 61 pound “calendar” that was taken apart during the genocide and part buriedi in Georgia then dug up by some soldier and the parts recently and finally reunited. For women to lug around a 61 lb calendar while fleeing for their lives shows real respect for the culture and care for the “written word”. The whole of the Mat. is being digitized and #3884 has been done.
Nick, That map of Chios is one I am familiar with but is really odd, from some parallel universe where two ports on Chios are labelled and way many more bays exist than other maps show. I was convinced that it depicted one of the other 1K Greek islands but there is an indication of some fortified area for mastic production so I guess it is just a poorly remembered, back of the envelope map made for some purpose other than accurate cartography; hardly as the dealers comment , an example of Dutch map maker’s skills! .
Dang! The more I try to clarify some of the more difficuLT scribal notes, and my first sight of this combination of LT, rather than the more common combination of “TL”,the more guiLTy I am of not proofreading my contributions to this page B4 husTLng to hit the “post comment” button. My apologies!
Blaue’s Grand Atlas of the 17th century shows “Chios” as being spelled “Scio” and also identifies eleven prominent features of the island.
To b, That is a Grand Atlas inded if Scio is shown. If one of the “features” is a fumarole or volcano, I am keenly interested. Otherwise my main interest if a good map of Chios town as I think, at the moment, that the upper right hand rosette of the 9 rosette page could be a stylized depiction of Chios town in the 15th or 16thC. My link of yesterday shows both the Papalini map of Chios town and an Arab map of Chios both from the 16th C. As I mentioned I think it is likely that Papalini’s map derives from the wall painting of the villa Giustiniani (I misspelled that name in the text but not the link). Both maps can be enlarged with Ctrl-+ but it pretty well makes the Papalini map useless. It is beyond help from Adobe and/ or Photoshop. Somewhere though a high res versions exists as Wiki has one but truncated. I am still on its trail! Chios (Gr. Hios) was the fifth largest of the many islands of Greece,right next (ca. 5km away) to Ottoman Anatolia
ThomS,
Just a few miles west of the main Island of Scio is a pair of semi-circular islets which sure appear to be the remains of a volcanic crater. It is unlabeled but has been colored Ottoman pink, rather than the blue of Negroponte. Beautiful maps
To finish my inadvertent end of comment: Mapmaker for Blaue’s 17th C. volume of maps, and particularly pp. 120-121, was Claudio Salmasio. Just in case you want to do some more investigating. I have a hunch that the tiny crater-top island was a holding facility for the traders (for whatever commodity).
Bye!
Nick et al., I was aware of that map link but confused it with another Dutch map of 1598 from Langenes.The B and H map you refer to was very useful in showing in 1588, 13 windmills whereas the Papalini map (Wiki, dated only as 16th C) showed 12, so depicts Chios town at a date earlier than 1588. I think the lower rt rosette on the 9 rosette page deals with an elaborate switching mechanism from wind to a mill race (water power) and symbols for 12 mills are shown with an “X” like switch. Oddly, in 1588, Chios is under Ottoman control but I think churches and not mosques are indicated. I have found a black and white depiction of Chios town, evidently based on a map created by Guistiniani and will send that along for all who care about Chios. Nick I apologize for bathmouthing that link you found; it is not the other Dutch map which really was squirrely. I think the mills were mainly for grinding alum.
ThomS:
It might be an “iffy” website, but they have a “new” 16th century painting of Chios town (birds eye view), so I will just give you their label for their website: The Sephardic Community of Chios
The fifth page of part 1 should show the city walls and port. Very interesting commentary throughout the document.
Dear all, A useful link with a depiction (three times) of Chios town is: http://www.giustiniani.info/bassano.html
Chiostown is shown as a background for a protrait of an early Giustiniani, as part of cover illustrations for a 2006 meeting held at the villa Giustiniani and a misc. collection of artwork near the end. It resembles but is not identical with the Papalini map, The Giustiniani maps show 5 ships at anchor in the harbor; Papalini’s map shows seven dhows. Note that the H and B map of Nick’s link shows a canon salute for an arriving three masted ship..
Back from brunch-break:
A little more about my earlier ref to the Chios Jewish community. Apparently they were also involved in the silk trade. “Somewhere” in Nick’s other pages I refer to the “pabulumox” which fed the silkworms, which cocoons fed the silk thread industry, which opened the many routes to wealth.
Besides Chios Island, I am still hoping to find out more about that pair of “crater fragments” which are not labelled on any map (so far).
Apparently Chios town is (today or tomorrow) having a festival. Oh, if only I could go there!
Yassou!
ThomS and Nick,
A closer look at that tiny island just west of Chios is labeled “Psara” My earlier reference was to a website which full name is “Foundation for the Advancement of Sephardic Studies and Culture”. Fascinating discussion to which I will be returning (Part 2) — now!
Ciao!
ThomS,
A little feedback, in case you may be wondering at the lack of response to your Giustiniani post:
I was only able to get to a Chamber of Commerce-style blurb about their town and Viterbo. As a casual cross-reference (at least to Viterbo): You may find a lot of interesting discussion on Bill Thayer’s research pages (University of Chicago) — Ancient history/mystery/tall-tales — my take on his side of the stories. 🙂
For b. et al. I found on Google a reference to the map maker you mentioned, Claudio Salmasio, and a 1666 reference to a map of Greece but the image was blocked (no freebees ). Anyway re the Papalini map of Chiostown, it does show in detail how dual purpose wind and water mills could have worked with a huge millrace passing in front of the mills.The H and B map of Nick’s link indicates huge cascade of water coming down upon Chios town. The island had many springs but no rivers or lakes to speak of. The Papalini map in addition to the seven dhows also shows at anchor, seven 2-masted square rigged ships of a European style. I neglected to mention those yesterday.
I think the zodiac calendar sequence goes from the dark rondel (70v1) to light (71r) of Aries, then goes to the light of Taurus (left side 71v) then dark (right side of 71v). This keeps the nymphs in tubs contiguous. I think a cheeky male ends the dark outer circle at 12 o’clock and represents day 30. It is a rare figure facing forward, not sideways. I am leaning to this month being April, not May. Note that Cancer in an early online depiction of the VM by qures, had that month upside down. This can be spotted by a slight overlap with Gemini in the current VM that all seem to use. The light crab should be on top in the rondel. Perhaps the importance of half month’s ending at 15 in both Aires and Taurus had to do with this now becoming the “Ides” of those two months? Then sometimes day 15 is indicated in other zodiac/ month depictions by some embedded clue? Originally March had an “Ides” (cf. Julius Caesar by Will Shakespeare), along with May,July and Oct. Otherwise the Ides fell on the 13th. For whatever reason, the VM calendar makers dropped the idea after two months, maybe because of the cost of vellum?
ThomS,
I finally found the name (and a little history) of that tiny island off the west shore of Chios:
Psara: Apparently was/is a treeless, lobster-fishing community today. It apparently was nearly bombed into extinction in the 1820’s. They apparently have recently been considering B & B and/or hostelry for some curious travellers.
So, although I am primarily an “armchair tourist”, I still like to participate in discovering lesser known pieces of history!
😉
Having studied Aries and Taurus pages (dark and light),
Has anyone studied the correspondences between ancient Celtic astrology and the Voynich astrological illustrations? Here’s a useful source. Ancient source documents (Plutarch, et al.,) are cited.
http://caeraustralis.com.au/celtcalmain.htm#summerwinter
Ancients noted a distinct simiarity between Celtic and Persian astrology, indicating it was not the same as Hellenistic astrology.
Months were lunar, not solar.
The months were said to be broken into two fifteen-day segments; one for waxing, the other for waning moon.
The waxing 15 days of the month were said to be light, the waning 15 days, dark.
There were two seasons in the Celtic calendar; winter, beginning at the end of our October, and summer.
The helical rising of the Pleiades (late April) had significance to the beginning of the Summer Season.
Each 30 years was considered “an age;” marked by Saturn conjunct the Plieades during its heliacal rising.
Whatever rituals the Voynich described may have been performed only in the spring months Aries and Taurus, making it unnecessary to document dark and light periods in the following months.
In the Celtic year, children were generally expected to be concieved at Beltaine (end of April) and born at Imbolc (our Candlemas or Groundhog Day).
Celtic insular astrology was vigorously persecuted by the Romans, according to their own historians.
If the calendar is Celtic, I would suggest the purpose of rituals in March and April may have been to prepare for
conception in late April. The emphasis on the waxing moon is compatible with pregnancy. I am not familiar with such rituals, but who knows whether the Voynich is an attempt to preserve an ancient technique which would have otherwise have been lost?
My background is much stronger in Hellenistic astrology, nevertheless, I hope to go on looking at the remaining astrological illustrations for further clues. My background in the symbolism of astrology and its medical applications is much stronger my background than cryptology–which is non-existent.
Thanks for your open-minded consideration.
Hello, Pam!
You can be sure ThomS will be following up on your reference. I’m pretty much focused on the Voynich (Boenicke 408) scriptology (as opposed to cryptology).
Not too long ago I did find a small bit of “Celtic” history, though, as far as the propagation of the Saffron crocus in an area of England near the town of Saffron Walden. I commented on that item on Nick’s “Irony, Question Marks, and Brackets pages”. I’m only commenting on this fact, here, because another name for the saffron crocus is “autumn-blooming”.
So, besides astrology and calendars and biological cycles, this particular page is a great place to expound – no?
bdid1dr
Hi!
Thank you, I look forward to participating on the blog. One good thing about this format is that it gives a feeling of communicating across the board with others with diverse backgrounds and approaches who also share an interest in the VM.
Where can I learn more about your work on the VM script? Calligraphy is an interest of mine. I’d like to learn more.
Gratefully,
Pam
Hello everyone!
I would like to quote from time to time the results of your research on my blog. Unfortunately, I realize that extracting specific information from more than 400 comments is not an easy task. Do you have personal blogs, please?
Yours faithfully
Ruby
Ruby,
Since you have a Voynich blog ~ may we continue the discussion at your place?
Diane,
There was no malice in my comment. I just want to know if you have personal blogs that I may quote them sometimes?
Sincerely,
Ruby
Ruby.
It never occurred to me that you weren’t asking a genuine question. We all ask the same if we’re interested in other people’s opinions because it’s difficult to know where to find them.
Everyone asks. 🙂
Pam and Ruby,
I’m exhausted. Because I am not able to maintain a blog, I have posted many times on Nick Pelling’s various VMS-related discussions. I have posted many of my findings/decipherments (no de-coding necessary). My method is to first open my Latin-English dictionaries (I have three).
I choose a particular folio based on how little decipherment is being done. Up until very recently nearly all discussions have been attempts to decodify the folios. There is NO code. There has been a lot of guesswork as to the origin, scribal identities, and the “codes” that various scribes supposedly developed.
My point of view has been one of “home remedies” and the use of organic matter, dietary regimens, and the care and nurture of prepubescent females. Also can be found, in the VMs, cautionary notes on the use of edible but potent fruits,
fungi, and combinations with wine and or overdoses of the more dangerous fruits (mandragore fruit-juice and/or the root of the mandragore).
More benign, and much more valuable, for instance, is the saffron crocus (Vms folio 55r). My most recent discovery for that beautiful crocus is that the plant’s stamens and pistils were used by manuscript illustrators for “gilding” the pages of “prayer missals” and “books of hours” commissioned by wealthy patrons. For this reference, see the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. (Cloisters Garden).
I’m nearly 70 years old — and getting older every day .
I’ll catch up with y’all tomorrow! 🙂
Dear ThomS,
I hope you are not being overwhelmed by the latest “back and forth” commentary and attempted diversions to other “blogs”. I visited Ruby’s and Pam’s sites. They both appear to be sincere.
I have just encountered another reference to “Ceos” (rather than Chios: I’ve just done a brief survey of another of John Tiltman’s attempted “decoding”: I am, today, going to do a rough translation to verify my “take” on Tiltman’s presentation of the Vms folio 49v:
For now, I’m going to decipher what appears to be an illustration of a ranunculus: “Persian” or “Turkish” turban. Until I can download a copy of the folio from Boenicke/wiki, please don’t go “haring off” on what might be a “wild goose chase” !!!
If you ever get tired of my punning, please say so! I think you know my style of writing by now?
🙂
bdid 1dr and Ruby, et al.
Unfortunately, no one studying the Voynich stands to gain much by reading any of my blogs, because I haven’t written about the VMS. I have a Certificate of Medieval Astrology from Robert Zoller–that’s not the four-year Diploma, just a certificate.
I don’t attempt to diagnose and treat medical conditions using astrology. I don’t even write about Medieval astrology as much as I cast and interpret sample charts to understand and confirm its use as a language of symbols.
Astrology and ancient medicine are obscure areas of study, and seemingly highly disregarded by modern scholars, so I’m not shocked to find few are studing and commenting on this aspect of the Voynich.
I’m offering some of my gleanings about astrology and ancient medicine to see if they can be of any use. I don’t have any stake in the “race to break the Voynich cypher,” so who knows? I might be able to lend a startling perspective that others have overlooked.
Perhaps everyone here has one tiny piece of the puzzle.
Or not.
At any rate, I’m grateful to be able to contribute in a small way.
Best, Pam
Dear Pam, ThomS, & all the rest of you “1-derers” : Have y’all 1-dered if we’ll ever solve the over-all “heavenly charts” which appear in the Vms?
After several months of finding the various charts which appear in the Vms, I’ve come to the conclusion that many are for various “auspicious” signs for the Aldobrandini, the Sforza, the Hapsburgs, and possibly other families who don’t find favorable charts for marriage. Probably every young man who was made a Cardinal (for the Papal electorals) had not seen “favorable signs” in his horoscope.
What do you think? If I’m pushing anybody’s “religion” button, please indicate so, on this discussion page. A long time ago (60 years ago, my time) there was a maxim:
Good manners at the dining table required that there be no discussion about religion or politics. So, ladies, what do you think the “guys” discussed with their after-dinner drinks and stinking cigars?
bdid1der 🙂
Good Heavens! We can’t ignore the Medici either!
bd
Dear ThomS et al,
My rough translation of Vms folio 49v IS “all about” the botanical specimen: “Turkish” or “Persian Ranunculus.
The first line of script (with the Prefatory Remarks) is un-numbered. The scribe then numbered lines 1 through 5. He did this so that he could keep track of where he might be if he were interrupted in his task. What would be lines 6 and 7 were concluding the discussion. Line 8 (with the P-symbol) identifies the area of Turkey (possibly Ceos, my observation).
lines 7 and 8 translate to:
7: ranun-quollr-ec-o–aes-an-aesox
8: Especios-ce-ce-o-aes-tl-c-c-oaes-ex
I’ll continue my transcription/translation tomorrow, if I have time available.
About the astronomical section – If I were in a position to fund research, and someone said they were interested in Raphel’s apparently having a correct understanding of Zoroaster’s name, rather than the derivations offered by the Greeks, I’d be inclined to support their work.
Diane
Well Diane, Pam, and ThomS,
This forum page is still probably the best place you all can “ex-Spand” on the topic of astrology. (My gentle pun is on ThomS’ last name). He is a true, kindly gentleman, who seriously considers all commentary.
Go for it!
Diane, where can I follow up on your references to “Raphel” and “Zoroaster’s name”?
Hi, Diane
I assume you are referring to the Renaissance painter, Raffaello Sanzio da Urbino, rather than one of the seven (or so) ninteenth-century astrologers who used the pseudonym Raphael.
I may have some ideas for you, but since you seem to prefer more privacy, I’ve set up a new email address for VMS correspondence: [email protected]
I’ll look forward to hearing from you.
Pam
bdid1der,
Could you please refer me to the pages which you think may reference horoscopes of members of famous families?
Do you have specific horoscopes available with which to compare these “star charts?”
Best,
Pam
Dear Pam
You’re welcome to leave a comment on my blog, where there’s also contact info.
Bd1dr
Consider the way Raphael pictures Zoroaster in his famous ‘School of Athens’ – compare it with the various etymologies offered for Zoroaster’s name.
That’s the end of the ball of twine; the maze is the thought-processes of too-clever-for-beans members of Renaissance Italy’s literati.
Diane
Pam, Diane & ne other interested parties:
Shortly b4 Nick & friends departed for Frascati, I asked Nick if he’d noticed the ladies in tubs waving striped banners and stars on strings. I teasingly referred to them as “Nick’s cheering section. If I remember the Vms folio layouts, correctly, astrological charts braced both sides of the depictions of ladies in tubs.
The point I was making then, and am now pointing again, is that stars and stripes were the Aldobrandini coat of arms and heraldry. The many frescoes painted on various Tuscan/Albani buildings/churches feature Aldobrandini sponsorship/commissioned/funding.
Take a peek for yourself. Pam, I would love to read your astrological take on those various horoscopes (now that you have one family name at least).
So, Diane, are you willing to discourse further, here on this topic page?
beady-eyed-wonder with a big grin 🙂
Bd1dr
I don’t know that my taking part in the astrological discussion could contribute anything of interest.
As you know, I do not believe the imagery in the manuscript was first created in medieval Christendom, which is kind of fundamental to the discussion here. But if anything potentially useful comes to mind, I’ll add it, sure.
Diane–
“Consider the way Raphael pictures Zoroaster in his famous ‘School of Athens’ – compare it with the various etymologies offered for Zoroaster’s name.”
If you’re interested in the source of Raphael’s information about Zoroaster, I would suggest it was Marsilio Ficino, who revived Platonism, interpreted the Greeks into Latin, introduced Zoroaster to the intellectuals of his age as a pagan source of truth, and who heavily influenced Raphael.
No one has yet definitvely proven the identity of the figure standing beside Raphael in the “School of Athens,” listening to Zoroaster as he speaks with Ptolemy. Possibly, this man is modeled on Ficino, regardless of which historical personage this figure is thought to depict. The likeness is striking.
Best,
Pam
Bd1dr,
I guess you are already aware that saffron (autumn crocus–VMS folio 55r) was a highly sought-after remedy for the Black Death: 1347-1350.
More soon,
Pam
http://www.new-library.com/zoller/features/rz-m-a-guardianangel.shtml
Here are a few of Robert Zoller’s remarks about Ficino and his teachings about the attachment of of each person at birth to a daemon/guardian angel associated with a “star”.
“Ficino, a 15th century Hellenist and philosopher was adviser to the renowned and powerful Medici family of Florence. He was an astrologer and a physician. His translations of Plato, Plotinus and the Corpus hermeticum 3 were immensely influential in Renaissance Art, philosophy and religious thought.”
“In his De vita coelitus comparanda he expands upon the importance of astrology in harmonising the soul and attaining spiritual felicity and psychological balance. In the said chapter he states that each person born with a sound mind has a heaven sent task to perform in life. Referring to the daemon he explains that it was Platonic doctrine (in which all antiquity concurred) that to each person there is given at birth a certain daemon which acts as a guardian and is assigned to a star. Ficino means by “star” a celestial body in the broad sense (e.g. planet, constellation or fixed star). He openly and deliberately equates this daemon with the guardian angel.”
“. . . Ficino suggests ritualistic means for attracting and communing with the daemon and reports the astrological and Platonic opinion that there were two daemons of importance: one belonging to the birth and the other to the profession. When these two are harmonious, concord and tranquillity reign in the soul.”
Pam, May I ask whose identification that is? You cite no-one else’s opinion, so should we consider it your own?
D
Pam,
Although I did a fair to middling translation of f55v , the Autumn-Blooming (saffron) Crocus, I missed any discussion of the plant’s medicinal qualities. I shall, maybe, be able to fill in those last gaps in the dialogue.
In the meantime, do you have any info to offer to my discussion of Vms folio 49v (which I have tentatively identified as the “Persian” or “Turkish” Turban Ranunculus)?
I’ve hand-written translations of some 8 or 9 folios, so far, and have found really repetitive words, which seem to be the development of botanical nomenclatural terminology. Sometimes a whole paragraph of any folio will be a single line of “cae” “caeas” “casaes se aeas” ad infinitum, ad nauseum” !!!!
I do “figure it out” though. I just can’t, one more time, lay out the entire archaic alphabet except to say that Vms script is entirely translatable into Latin — and then “anyone” can consult a Latin dictionary, and translate the Latin into whatever “anyone’s” native language may be.
I will point out a critical factor in much of the dialogue:
The difference in the phonemes “r” and “s”:
R is a backward-facing figure S .
S is a backward-facing large C with a diagonal bar extension.
“aes” is represented by the Vms character “8” or “&”
Once the difference between the alphabets R and S are understood, much of the rest of the script will form identifiable Latin terminology, which can then be translated into whatever one’s native language is.
I’ve discussed the elaborate scrolled “P” as being combinative phonemes which can also be added to, on either side, to form words/syllables. Quite often the scrolled “P” begins a whole paragraph of discussion.
Anyway, time to feed the animal(s). I usually check back in later in the afternoon.
a tout a l’heure!
🙂
Hi, Diane!
I must be a poor researcher, because I’ve so far been unable to find on your blog an email address where I can send you images.
Yes, the (possible) identification of Ficino in “The School of Athens” is exclusively mine as far as I know. Raphael did not pass on any notes indicating his identification of contemporary models used in this painting, so we are left to conjecture.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pZn4a1CwgVI/TcNDKrEPBwI/AAAAAAAAAUY/wN7Lp4wDVB0/s1600/The+School+of+Athens+by+Raphael+1509-+Zoroaster+left%252C+with+star-studded+globe.jpg
Anyone may simply compare his likeness: In some versions, Ficino may be older, some younger, with his head tilted in a different direction under different lighting, and wearing different expressions. But I find a strong similarity. What do you think?
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gs_rn=9&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=JKIYbq8YFgUovVAHFRz1_g&cp=8&gs_id=s&xhr=t&q=marsilio+ficino&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45175338,d.dmQ&biw=1440&bih=743&wrapid=tljp1365869040404014&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=DYJpUbHTIOfG0AGB34D4Bw
I don’t think there’s much question that it was Ficino who introduced Raphael to Zoroaster in the theoretical sense, if not in the image depicted. Most people weren’t reading Greek, much less old Persian. Ficino seems to have had a corner on the market, as there weren’t any other sources of information about Zoroaster commonly available at the time.
Best,
Pam
I’d like to refer y’all to two items which have been very helpful to me in deciphering some of the Vms scribal workings:
The Pronunciation of Classical Latin (I’ll to make a link, but it is very long, and may not register:
https:panterfile.uwm.edu/corre/www/franca/edition3|texts.html
The second reference uses typescript which is not available to me, so all I will do is refer you to Scribal abbreviation-Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. This second work of reference is explaining the use of “sigla” and contractions. To me, utterly fascinating! 🙂
Pam,
Sorry – I should have specified I meant the plant id.
I guess you are already aware that saffron (autumn crocus–VMS folio 55r.
I wondered whether you’d made this choice or were adopting an earlier proposal, and if so whose? i find it reduces the confusion (a little) if I add the name of the person whose opinion is adopted.
Diane
ThomS,
Correction to that town of Ceos, spelling was Teos. I just finished a lengthy post discussing vms folio 49v Persian Ranunculus. I got a server error. I’ll try this short post just to see if something is goofy an my end of the line.
bdid1dr
Correction to the first word in the url for The pronunciation of classical latin: pantherfile
bd
Y’know, people, I’m puzzled that so many discussions of what the entire “Voynich” manuscript is SAYING gets derailed into conversations/debates on who wrote it. Also, there are still arguments going on about whether it was “coded” or whether it was cryptology, or from where did it originate.
I’ve been concentrating on the scribal attempts to pack in a whole lot of information into just a few paragraphs of script. By doing so, I have been able to get the “gist” of each folio’s presentation of facts.
Because I do not have the means to support a blog, I am unable to provide pictures of some of the archaic scribal abbreviations and punctuation marks which occur throughout the Vms. So, I’ve done my best by referring you to various websites which do explicate.
Diane, I understand your need for “argumentation”. That is the classical way the classics were taught. But if this page (That Which……) is our last option for focusing on translating the document’s language and scribal notation, why not let us “stick to the point”?
Dear ThomS: I hope the “nit-picking” hasn’t driven you away. The Vms is displaying quite a bit of the European and Ottoman history. I’m hoping you’ll follow up on my reference to “Teos” — which I think may have been the “homeland” of the “Persian Turban” ranunculus which is displayed in Vms folio 49v. I’m on the last paragraph of translation. By the way, Teos was just a few miles away across the peninsula from Smyrna.
beedee
Pam,
A message below reads
“I guess you are already aware that saffron (autumn crocus–VMS folio 55r.”
How that happened, I’ve no idea but I expect it was a glitch in transmission. What I asked was whether you were agreeing with some earlier identification – and if so whose – or whether it was an original suggestion of your own.
Sorry that the post came out as if believed the id was established – as none are, of course.
Diane
Dear (anonymous) Bd1dr
I gather that you have been sharing your opinions over the years about many topics, on many blogs.
May I add my voice to others in suggesting that you put your ideas into a web-page or blog so that they may be read, and kept, and commented upon more conveniently by any – and possibly many – who find them of interest?
Diane,
If you think you can intimidate me into creating a “blind alley” blog similar to yours, think again. I’ve already explained to you and to Nick why I cannot support a blog-page of my own. You may be very intelligent and deep-thinking, but you seem limited in understanding other persons’ reasons for not having blogs of their own.
Do you not realize that you MAY be driving away some of Nick’s long-time friends and supporters of his efforts to give us some of the best mind and intelligence exercises in the world?
I have only found “blind alleys” on your various blogs.
So what if you know my full name (inadvertently given by my email server when I posted to your blog several months ago). Do you think that ANYONE reading this latest exchange of “niceties” is ever going to visit your blog?
bdid1dr
Dear all, I have been incommunicado for a bit, working on scribal abbreviations and any differences between the two scribes. I think there are a few but I need more examples.Both use the backward “s” that I think is a null c under a “)” (right paren.) Some of these are classical “Tironian” notes, like the “)” and “2” ; others seem home grown like “n or m fused with the tipped “?””. The addition of this extra layer of complexity in addition to encipherment is puzzling. BTW, I think the frequent appearance of “c-c-“backward S””.which I originally thought to be “is” is actually “ist” (German for “is”). More and more German is popping up. As confused as ever, Tom
Pam,
You are a g-r-r-reat researcher! Don’t let anyone “put you down”. I meant to get back to you with a couple of details I noticed: The globe which had the “constellations” displayed. Beautiful! In other years, with a more primitive computer setup and server, I missed a lot of very interesting discussions on world history and the enormous archival material which can now be “downloaded”.
Thanx for the reference, and thanks again for presenting “feasts for the eyes” to go along with written material! Thank you too, Tom, for the Armenian ladies “song and dance” with “live music” no less! They sang — and I danced the Syrto!
Beady-eyed wonder
ThomS,
Were you able to find the Wikipedia website which discusses Scribal Abbreviation” There are two discussion blocks which are quite relevant to the Vms script writers (shorthand) and examples of independent marks. Take a look, particularly the figures which look like numeral 9 and the symbol which looks like an ampersand ( & equals the latin “et”) Wait until you see the rest of only two pages of that Wiki “Scribal Abbreviation ” website!
ThomS,
Lest we get even further derailed, I’ll try to explain my use of the two most confusing “Vms” alpha-letters, but first of all I’d like to say that there IS a difference in the use of the “8” and the “&” :
8 equals the latin “aes”
& equals the scribal “et” , and can also be used “et cetera” or “and so forth”.
Throughout most, if not all, of the Vmanuscript pages one will find the use of the Cyrillic capital “C” — which faces backwards to the rest of the script.
That particular alpha-character is probably the most important because it represents the sibilant “S”, even if it is facing “backwards”.
What adds to the confusion, however, is when a scribe gets weary/sloppy in making that sibilant, which has a straight tail, look more like a backward-facing S.
The backward “S” is “R r”
This is the best I can do to explain why I am able to first hand-write a whole line of the Vms script. I then write on a line below each of the script, the latin words or phrases which appear with each “translation”.
I then pull out my three Latin dictionaries (and my two botanical encyclopedias) and proceed to identify the various pictorial elements of the “bathing” and “botanical” sections.
So far, I have also been translating (letter-by-letter, word-for-word) the various sections of the Vms which lead to shrines to Artemis/Diana. A very important shrine and sacred grove is now being archaelogically investigated in Italy — not even 10 miles away from the Alban Lake: Lake Nemi
So I am now harkening back to “my” “Nine Rosettes” discussions in the forum topic I initiated way back when Nick and friends were in Frascati. Before taking off to Frascati, Nick left the Forums open for our discussions while he was away. So, when Ellie first ventured onto Nick’s home page, Diane immediately accused Ellie of “spam”. So, I immediately initiated the forum topic “Round n’ Round” — and Ellie and Diane began “Coconuts and Kings”. So, when Nick returned, things seemed to be copacetic. Not long after Nick’s return, his blog was hacked. Several days later, Nick was back online with this topic page, upon which we have continuously conversed, and explored, and given much feedback to Nick and his friends.
II most regret not being able to contact Rene Zandbergen to give him positive feedback on his meticulously researched discussions. I’ve also wanted to refer Rene to Voynich manuscript folio 86 r 3 : which pictorial elements are not “cosmological”.
Folio 86 r 3 has writing on its periphery which identifies the sketches of mushrooms/fungi (with NO mention of psyllocybe) as being coprinicae. The discussion also explains the origin of the word hallucinate, and refers to the legend of Halcyone and Ceyx. Perhaps “somebody” reading this latest post can contact Rene and bring him up to date? I’ve already asked Rich Santa Coloma and Elmar Vogt — but have again been side-barred by Diane.
So far, no one seems to “get it”. I’ll be continuing my discussions here for a little while longer. I do plan on focusing on what appears to be the most difficult sections of the Vms: The connection between whole pages of dialogue and how they connect the “pharma” jars” with the various plant materials which are to be pulverized and mixed with liquids. The liquids aren’t necessarily just water (wine, distilled wine, sea-water). EllieV recently has speculated that the “pharma-jars” may be “distillery” ovens/stoves.
ThomS, I recently followed up on my reference to “Ceos” as shown on Blaue’s 17thC map: It turns out that more recent maps show that town/area as being Teos. So Teos and Smyrna were both astraddle the peninsula where one of Christianity’s disciples first began preaching. Interesting!
So, “Round n’ Round” I go once again!
They tell me if you look at the Voynich for long enough you become Shakespeare.
Fingers crossed I get sonnets.
Dear ThomS, and Pam,
For private reasons, I will no longer be posting to this discussion. ThomS, it has been a great adventure. Now and then, in between my preliminary draft of my book, I’ll be observing your progress. I’ll let you all know if and when I am able to publish. ThomS, try to locate the “Round and Round” (Nine-Rosettes) forum, buried somewhere in Nick’s extensive archives. Nick may be able to refer you to them.
A tout a l’heure!
bdid1dr
to b (mainly), I look for your book and best wishes on its launch. I think there is a third “8” like glyph and that is the symbol for the Armenian letter “f” which was not introduced into their alphabet until the 13thC. It is distinguished by a “rocker” at the bottom which makes a break with the rest of the glyph. It appearsa lot in “8a”Armenian f”” which is “leaf” The “l” being omitted as being too helpful. The ampersand appears in Armenian but not very early, more like the 16thC. What it is doing in the VM is puzzling. I have read a fair amount on Tironian notes and scribal abbreviations. Some does appear, as Nick and you note, but the homegrown stuff is more common.
I will miss your cheerfully enthusiastic contributions to these pages and have benefitted particularly from the mastic-Chios link. Cheers and every good wish. Tom
Dear all. Diane has put forward the interesting hypothesis that some VM botanicals (20 examples are provided) that may or may not be found among the Voynich plants, might be candidates for perfumery. She has demonstrated that various combinations of these could produce close to 2000 individual scents. This however is a “floor” for perfume possibilities as Jean-Claude Ellena has indicated in a recent book, that roughly 200 perfume building blocks (the so-called “Ellenades”) have been identified (some apparently are synthetic). Are there embedded clues in the VM that a plant might have such a use? If one were to indicate a human nose, what would a stylized depiction look like? I think some blossom petals and leaves could resemble a “narrow trefoil” that might represent a tiny nose and two nostrils, maybe slightly flared? I think examples might be seen on f10r, 41r, 45r, 49r and 50r although I have no idea yet of the plant identifications.. This is a follow up to Nick’s encouraging every flower to bloom on his blog site. Or am I just down into the weeds again?
Dear all, Two brief points. b mentions Carmina Burana in her post of March 20 and the briefest search on that indicates it is written in ca.1230 in a language that is commonly referred to as a “macaronic” language (honest, I did not make this up!). This is, in this case, Latin mixed with German and French. A common mac language is Czech Latin and German and I am leaning to thinking that fits the VM language used. The other punctillio is that the Armenian-Persian zodiac rondels on my post of Mar 20 have two figures (Leo and Sagittarius) that had parallel hatching in the period 1461-1478. This does not predate the likely writing of the VM or Nick’s hypothesis of a N. Italian origin of parallel hatching but could indicate a parallel development of this art technique way to the East. Diane has come up with a much earlier example but I find that one hard to see clearly. Ge’ez is the Armenian-based language used in the Ethiopian Bible. Is there a “Mac and Ge’ez ” language out there?
Dear Thomas
There seems to be a mis-print in your post. I have mentioned two plants, not twenty, as a possible indication that the plants in the manuscript may not have uses limited to medicine.
Elsewhere, I’ve also noted plants whose uses were chiefly as dyes, or fibre-plants.
In each case, though, some medicinal use may exist for them, or at least have existed in traditional societies prior to 1420 or so.
I have never offered a theory as such, and as most people know, am disinclined to first create and then pursue ideas of my own creation.
On a different point: it is very good of you to read my contributions, and kinder still to acknowledge having done so. I think that you may be the first to have done so – many thanks.
Dear ThomS,
I just cannot resist: In re fragrant plants:
Folio 56r:
First line translates into Latin as:
Olecax ce Solencentis —crassitudinus creberrimus ceos-cegeus
Which, in turn, translates to: Sweet-smelling-fragrant-crowded together-thick —-
That is the best I can do to contribute to the fragrances.
Other reading tells me that Dianthus was so strong and sweet smelling that it was often added to hot drinks as a taste enhancement.
Since the endless repetitions are mostly precursors to the eventual system of plant nomenclature, I’m pretty sure “someone” familiar with early botany will be continuing to this discussion — hopefully, soon.
I’m working as fast as I can on 15 different folios. Just thought y’all would like a boost. Cheers!
bdid1dr
Bd1dr
I did mention earlier that Edith Sherwood, quite some time ago, claimed to have deciphered the manuscript by using Latin dictionaries (I don’t know which grammar she used).
It might short-cut your work if you look at hers – perhaps you’ll find you agree with what she says, and all you need do is cite her!
Vms folio 56r
Continued discussion:
Second group of eleven lines:
The last four lines (of this second group) sum up the discussion and identifies the flower as “caryophyllacae” — and discusses the Laconian hand-maids in the Temple to Diana : Caryatides
Furthermore in re Dianthus caryophyllacae (vms folio 56r):
Just a couple of hours ago, I finished my three-step translation of the last three lines of the second group of phrases:
Which refer to Laconian maids in temple to Diana, Caryatides. Cariae (a district in SW Asia Minor)
Laconiae (a region of the Peloponeseus, Sparta chief city).
Parentheses are my “look-up the Latin)
By the way, folks, the various bathy (balnealogical) pages are all discussing the care of those various “maids” who were all slaves (according to various historians).
Nick & codiological friends:
This discussion in re Dianthus, Vms folio 56r, is the second of two documents which Brigadier John H. Tiltman and his team of codiologists, were unable to decode. Poor “Brig” and Mr. Currier. I hope you all understand that I am honoring their efforts during some very troubled times.
Our various Orthodox congregations across the US will soon be celebrating their annual food and dance festivals. Time for me to get my teaching (festival dances) gear/wardrobe in order!
Yassou! Opa! 🙂
A little more about Goliardic/Macaronic verse:
An actual “school-yard” song:
Father and I went down to camp,
Along with Captain Gooding,
And there we saw the men and boys
As thick as hasty pudding.
Yankee doodle keep it up,
Yankee doodle dandy!
Stick a feather in your cap,
And call it macaroni!
Last words of that macaronic song should read: “cotton candy”
Depending on whether it is “schoolyard” chanting or maybe a more risque adult singing, the last line is “and with the girls be handy”.
No I’m not going to post my findings/translation of “Dum Dianae” anywhere on Nicks’s pages!
Dear Thomas,
I hope I haven’t derailed our Vms discussions entirely. I was just getting a little tired of the attempted derailments. So, believe it or not, we end up back in the “Cyclades” (Caria district of SW Asia Minor) and references to Laconian handmaidens in temples to Diana. The flower in Vms f56r is Dianthus, which first line of script is:
olecax-ce Solencentis–crassitudinus-creberrimus ceos-ce-geus: which latin phraseology translates into English:
sweet-smelling fragrant crowded together thick Ceos-ce-geus
Second line of Vms f56r begins with ceo-tl-ece-geus (and begins the whole string of repetitive nomenclature of identifying the origin of the “Ceos species” of the flower “Dianthus” caryophyllacae.
Within the first set of 8 lines of dialogue also appear references to the “Caria district-SW Asia Minor” (my “take” on this is the Icarios district –carnation species.
What is scary about the second set of eleven lines is that references are being made to “Laconian maids in temple” and Caryatides and “Cariae” . The discussion is “dark” because its terminology seems to be discussing prison, incarceration, captivity, shriveling, wrong.
So, I am treading cautiously into what might become “hot water”. At the same time, we seem to be drifting back to “Ceos”! So, the various Latin dictionaries (I have 3) all seem to be confused as to whether “Ceos” is the island of “Chios/Scios OR whether it is the small peninsula town of Ceos/Teos located south of Smyrna.
Have I given you more food for thought?
Still b-d i-d as ever!
Bd1Dr
except that I’m surprise to find the language Latin, it doesn’t sound too bad – pefumes were made at some of the early centres, including islands, and there’s a scene from a play in Terrance where in response to being accused of being Phoneicians, the people say they’re Dorians – as Laconians were. latins did translate deities names like any other term, and ‘Phoenicians’ did share worship in Didyma – not quite Caria but next door at least. interesting stuff.
B. Still here. I think Ceos is the mainland town near Smyrna, not the island Chios. Chios has two alleged claims to fame outside of mastic. 1) The birthplace of Homer and 2) the source of the maps of Columbus. Both are “iffy”
Macaroni in the context of Yankee Doodle refers to the use of that term to refer to the braid in the caps of the regular officers of the British army. The best the colonials could come up with was evidently a feather! The constant slights experienced by George Washington, an officer in the Colonial army, did a lot to incline him toward the expulsion of the Brits. Colonials could not use the officers’ clubs for instance.
Macaronic language is Latin mixed with one or more “modern” languages, like Italian, French or German. Maybe not English?
Thanx for the feedback ThomS, Diane:
Shortly, I’ll be returning to my earlier translations of Vmsfolios
72 v & r
75 v & r
82 v & r
83 v & r
All of these folios lead to various temples/sacred groves of
Diana (Roman) and Artemis (Greek). Of particular interest to me is folio 83v. The writing that appears below the two globes is discussing the effects of watered down mandrake fruit juice (sedative, anesthesia, pain-reliever): oc-cae-caes-geus — and o-tl-ol-um (take it easy/ease pain)
The elaborate, stretched “P” characters are referring to
“balnear-ius-sa-neus”
So far, I have found no direct reference to the “mandragore/mandrake plant itself. So far, I have not found it in the Vms “botanical” either. Never mind that just about every other medieval manuscript which has botanical features doesn’t hesitate to quote and requote (ad nauseum) all the “other” medicinal experts advice on how to recognize, nurture, harvest the root, burn the root to “knock-out battlefield warriors preparatory to amputations, etcetera!
Thanx for letting me rant!
Diane,
I was trying to keep my monologue short, but I can’t resist maybe wading into hotter water:
Laconian maids, Caryatids, and “Doric”: Take a walk around your town and take a look at some of the older buildings (banks, courthouse, hospital…..) which have pillared entryways. Hmmmmm?
I’m still bd-Id (beady-eyed) and still probably just as detail-oriented as you. Big smile: 🙂
Dear Bd1r
You can see the originals on the internet – why bother with Victoriana?
I am a little jaded by the whole thing. It seems as if politics and fantasy are governing the current direction taken by people wanting to become television-household names and any serious treatment of this fifteenth century manuscript is read only to see what can be conveniently “adapted”.
I’m as sickened by the lack of scholarly and personal integrity as by the misuse of what I’ve offered from my forty years’ experience in my own field.
That precisely the same elbowing-out seems to have happened with most, if not all the reputable people involved stops me from feeling it’s personal, but doesn’t lessen the outrage. You think you understand how to treat imagery? – Go for it.
Diane
Dang!
I just wrote a lengthy post, went to correct an item, and hit a wrong button and my post disappeared.
Anyway, what I was trying to tell you is to look at my post to this topic page on March 14, this year 2013, where I discuss my translation of Vms folio 11v. The botanical object is a single/seedling mulberry fruit. I think you will be able to recognize the latin terminology which verified my hunch as to what that strange so-called “artichoke” really was.
Have fun digging into the medieval trades of sericulture, especially in France and Italy (shades of the Silk Road).
bd eyed wonder: bdid1dr
See how patient I’ve been? 🙂
I’ll leave the silk industry of France and Italy to someone else, I think – I’ve been discussing the related plants, dyes, traders etc. and the importance of Ceuta.
Happy to pass on the suggestion – frankly, the tree looks less like a mulberry to me that others, even within the European tradition. Thinking of one tomb, especially.
What is being portrayed on 11v is just the seed of the mulberry which is beginning to sprout. The discussion is about the mulberry leaves which were fed to silkworm larvae.
Not convinced, sorry.
I’d need a good reason to accept that conventions observed consistently through these folios should be ignored for this one folio – plus a reasonable explanation for the form given the root. Segments forming the top are consistently leaf-shaped and the ‘harlequin’ motif appears to indicate trees that have markedly different colour or tone on the leaf’s upper and lower sides, as well as being the sort of tree that can form a solid canopy. This particular style is seen even in Europe, in metal as in book illustration, so I don’t think it would be applied then to depicting a single mulberry – regardless of what the text might be about.
Time may resolve it.
ThomS,
I hope you aren’t stuck in the doldrums of discovery. I have just laid out my downloads of Vms folios 70’s through 80’s. My translating is going full steam ahead. I am seeing fifteenth century scribes/”historians” in the process of developing nomenclature (latin-based) for the “exotic” items of trade. I’m also seeing extracts from Greek and Roman mythology. Most recently I’m finding discussion about the “real business” of the temples to Artemis and Diana.
So, I won’t wonder if you choose to bypass that part of history. However, you may enjoy following up on the “Mulberry” folio 11v. It is mostly about the leaves that fed the larva which made the thread, which supported the silk industry……..You won’t find any direct reference to the tree itself except the latin word for tree: line 5 –arbor-o-caseus.
This is my favorite folio, partly because it gave me the origin of our various Mother’s word for baby mush: pablum-ox !
Fun! 🙂
Nick & ThomS,
There are several other instances of “fruit” or “vegetables” which are not being labeled with any nomenclatural terminology. I’ve already pointed out the mandrake fruit in folio 83v (by the discussion which appears at the base of those strange objects).
I’m sure you’ve both picked up on some of my other mentions of mushrooms, squash/cucurbit/lufa, water lilies (food for aquatic animals), versus lotus nelumbo (a legume), saffron crocus (spice, dyeplant), salvia sclerae (an edible sage plant/eye medicine).
At this point in my investigation/translation of some dozen or more Vms “specimens”, I have finally realized that I am imposing on you (and your fans) a truth which you really are not prepared to acknowledge. After all, what HAS been more absorbing, intriguing, confusing, confabulating, ponderable, and most arguable (if not argumentary) piece of history for nearly seventy years? I wonder what Ethel and Wilfred would think if they could read us now?
bdid1dr
beady-eyed-wonder
bdid1dr: if I automatically blocked all comments from people who hadn’t quite managed to prove their decryption or historical claims, I’d probably only get two or three comments each year. 🙂
So if I were to say that I don’t (yet) believe in your readings, please be reassured you would be in very good company, because I say the same thing to all the other clever people who leave comments here, bless ’em all. 😉
But it be the truth, mon! (heh!)
Onward I go — downloading folios 17v, 96v, and 99r. I’ll get back to you, here on these “back pages”, if and when I find anything “interesting”.
🙂
So, I’ve done a little investigating and translating of the afore-mentioned folios. I decided to leave my “findings” on your subject post (where I hope they may be more widely read).
Cheers! 😉
Oh, most Compelling Sir!
I’ve spent most of the afternoon trying to find the origin for that very large green leaf (which should have been colored red) AND the small three-leaf sketch (which should have been colored green): vms folio 42 r
The large shoulda-been-red leaf is/was radicchio (which does taste like a cross between radish and cabbage).
The small crinkly-edged three-leaved plant, found only with green leaves, is/was cilantro.
What I am finding hilarious about the coloring efforts and the commentary which accompanies each specimen is that the artists may have also gotten the commentary for each drawing mixed up!
So, here I am, almost having hysterical spasms of laughter, crying in sympathy for those scribes and artists who worked so hard to tell a very interesting story (and with pictures, no less!). I can almost see them now. Too tired to do anything but pray (can’t lift their weary chins from their chests)!
What is even sillier: of all my reference books on botanicals, I was not able to find but one reference to cilantro (and no photo). Modern uses for cilantro is for making pico de gallo (a delicately flavored “salsa”. I did find good sources for radicchio, however. Apparently most people treat radicchio like cabbage; I tear a raw leaf into pieces and toss it with other salad greens.
Just thought you might like some rewarding feedback, somewhere, about your excellent hosting manners! And–
THANX!
beedee
Dear all, Still digging on Chios, despite downtime with flu. Although most discussions on Chios focus the mercantile pursuits of the Genoans, particularly the cultivation of mastic shrubs (layering was used to start them out), the island boasted 40 species of roses, as well as orange , mandarin and lemon trees, not much has been written on the sources of irrigation. I ran across some nice commentary by Christopher Long on Chios on their “sterna”; Water was raised from 30-35m deep wells by water wheels powered by donkeys and the water stored above ground in substantial cisterns called sterna. Some were immense at 140 m long. and were often covered with trellises resting on marble columns. The bathing connection will occur to most Voynichers but not clear from Long whether they served any other purpose than as a source for irrigation and watering livestock. Irrigation was accomplished with stone lined channels and also some below ground methods that sounds like pipes of some kind.The use of the sterna was most common just south of Chiostown in the Kampos area. The Chios women are described as olive-skinned beauties, favoring brightly colored clothes, but with a distinguishing feature not seen in the VM and that is eyebrows that join. Eyes were blue. Hair was worn short in the middle ages in the style of Florentine pages and held in place with a clasp. White laurel and those whild roses were often an indication of a spring or underground river. Long indicates Chios had a major earthquake in 1389, but still nothing on fumaroles. The Long essays are replete with maps and one is even available fom the martime museum of Greenwich, London. A print of the whole island from a 1554 map, modestly priced at 15 pounds. One map used is that by a Florentine map maker Cristoforo Buondelmonti (b.1385, d.1430) that is charming but inaccurate. B. also visits Lesbos, home of Sappho and Theophrastus. B., incidentally, was Guelph.
Dear all, More on those cisterns (“sterna”) on Chios. Christopher Long indicates in his essay on Chios (he had kin there at one time) that many were inside the protective walls of the estate buildings and were used for domestic purposes and ultimately for irrigation. Perhaps domestic use would include bathing? I think nearly all the bathing sequences of the VM show clearly man made walls (parallel hatching but done to indicate construction not as an art technique to indicate 3D). These can be seen most clearly on f78r, f81r, f81v, and f84v. All are shallow and above-ground as might be typical of a cistern. The “green ” pools (some have original inking) may be mineral-rich water; blue may be fresh water. In some instances, blue overlays the green. I have found no other indication than Long’s essay that Greek Chios women had joined eyebrows and that might not be a generic characteristic but seen in a few instances by an early 20thC French traveller he quotes.
ThomS, I was beginning to get seriously worried with your absence. Still, flu could be mixed blessing as far as having to rest (physically) and still keep your mind active. Just don’t let it develop into viral pneumonia!
Meanwhile, back at camp headquarters (Nick’s latest offerings of puzzlements) we’ve been updating some of the long-standing unsolvable folios. (f17v, f96v, and f99). It may be a lead to solving the rest of the “recipes” — we’ll see.
Oh yes, one more thing. I followed up my query in re the small islet just west of Chios. Apparently it was bombed at one point in more recent history (I didn’t find mention of volcanic activity). Today that little island is home to lobster fisherfolk. They apparently are trying to set up a B & B.
We’re full-tilt into our gardening season:fruit treelings, grapes, and asparagus at our ranchette, herb garden (including salvia sclerae) at the SE side of our mountain home, and salad greens (including garlic, raddichio, and cilantro) on our 30-foot long front porch. My back porch has barrels of saffron crocus and more herbs. As fast as I have been identifying various Voynich botanicals, my husband has been planting them! But no water lily or water lotus pond — skunks and racoons are regular visitors.
Thanks, Nick, for letting me brag about my medieval gardens!
b. That island is Psara and comes with a smaller one (Psara piccolo) to the south. A good map shows Psara and Chios drawn by the Venetian map maker Benedetto Bordone in the 15thC (repro is 1686). Psara had a 3.3 quake in the early 21st C (epicenter was SSW of the main island of Psara). Some consider Chios, Psara and Lesbos all to be of volcanic origin. The discovery of that “volcano” spouting blue in the 9 rosette folio of the VM might actually be a fumarole and would be approximately in the right direction for something going on in or near Psara. Chios had a moderate quake in 1389 and a huge one in 1881. With hot springs on Chios I don’t think it is a reach to postulate fumarole activity after the 1389 quake.. Good luck with those herbs. Cheers, Tom
ThomS,
I’m so excited I can barely type at 20wpm! Allthough the particular news item is a couple of years old, it might mean that there is a lot of information out there — and information that your daughter might be able to access (a very long link which may not be operable any more) — if I only refer to the news item, dated 22-03-2011:
“Rome’s Gregorian University digitises archive” Professors Martin Morales and Irene Pedretti”
While they were filming Ms Pedretti turning random pages, several items of considerable interest to me, at least, were being filmed and posted to the W W W. I’m hoping you will be able to bring up the news item, and perhaps your daughter might be able to get a look at the display and or archives.
I’m crossing my fingers in the hope that you and your daughter my find the news item as fascinating as I do!
bdid1dr
b. Thanks for the tip. Rome is some distance from Florence although a new high speed train connects the two. Bear in mind that Gregory who reformed the Julian calendar was a mathematics graduate of the U. of Bolgna. My guess is that the reason the VM ended at a villa used by him was related to the calendar reform going on within its pages. I would guess that he might have had some other ms dealing with calendar reform also before his reform, announced by papal bull,in 1582. The Eastern church and some Catholics didn’t adopt it as well as the protestants. Some Armenians accepted it, some did not.
My daughter has her hands full with her one year old boy at the moment. I’ll do some spade work at the moment on what is likely there and might suggest trying to look at some of the digital images online.
Thanx, ThomS!
Another reason I’m so excited about the digitization project, is that Ellie Velinska recently posted an item on her blog which was discussing all of the stars which appear in the Vms. The project in Rome displayed several pages with stars prominently featured. The main reason I am so excited is that the some 6000 manuscripts were apparently inadvertently (?) hidden when the Roman School (Father Kircher’s headquarters for his Jesuit missionary corps) was i remodeled and built onto and became the Gregorian University (training school for Jesuit studies).
Ah! Give your daughter my regards! If and when you think she may become less distracted with her childcare (and possibly return to work). You and she may find an interesting artifact from Francesco de Medici’s craftsmen’s workshops (both in Florence and Venice). At this point, I can only refer you to one volume of an encyclopedia, “Treasures of the World”: ‘The Renaissance Princes’
I understand that much of de Medici estates were “dissolved” over centuries. If you can, ThomS, see if your local public library can get a copy of the book I’ve just cited. The last piece of cut-rock crystal (pages 166-169) are in the Museo Degli Argenti in Florence. That crystal dish is portraying the legend of Alcyone and Ceyx (god and goddess who were turned into kingfishers). Though I find the dish, itself, to be hideous, it is validation for my translation of the story being told in Voynich manuscript 86 r 3 (my name for the folio is the “mushroom folio). I’ve already tried to contact Rene Zandbergen — several days/weeks ago.
There is a timeline/chronology on pages 170-71 which I am going to photocopy — the coincidences with the dateline of possible VMs manufacture and subsequent scribal & artists works, is very strong!
I’ve just realized I haven’t eaten yet. Gotta eat! More later!
bdid1dr
The Collegio Romano is founded by Ignazio di Loyola in 1551 in Rome not Villa Mondragone,
The villa Mondragone is built in 1573-1577
Xplor, I apologize for my attempt to condense a whole lot of history into one sentence or paragraph. Villa Mondragone (in Frascati) was a private estate which was occasionally visited by the Pope (Gregory, the calendar “remodeler”).
The Roman College (Collegio Romano) also was eventually remodeled and enlarged by that same Pope — and the school was renamed in his honor. So, we now know why Fr. Kircher may have seemed to be somewhat confused at times — never mind that he took over the duties of corresponding with his corps of missionaries at a very young age — and apparently didn’t have a lot of reference material/background information with which to work.
beady-eyed wonder 🙂
Athanasius Kircher entered the Jesuits at Paderborn in 1618 and became professor of mathematics at the Roman College, He would have served under the 6th black pope Mutio Vitelleschi.
The person that probbly hide the books in the wall was Peter Beckx.the 22nd Jesuit general.
… and Beck decided to take particular care of some among the many.
But speaking of Beck – some time ago, in the Journal of Voynich Studies, Vol.3 (2009) #248, Berj N. Ensanian noted
(a) P. Beck mentioned on the verso of a letter to Kircher from Kaspar Schott (~1608-1666) dated 9 MAR 1659. Berj refers there to the Archive of the Gregorian University as where this letter was preserved.
Berj said:
Schott’s letters in APUG are nearly all quite challenging to deal with on account of the faded ink, and his hand, and also he seems to use abbreviations in strange ways: see for example in line 16 underneath “P. Beck” of line 15, where he gives the name of a Padre that seems to start with a capital “C” but then the next letter, which I’d expect to be a vowel, is written like a classic VMS GC-1 (EVA-ch). I seem to remember he also wrote a GC-2 somewhere.
Bd1dr – your references to a Greek deity, and mine to imagery in the Vms found on coins and medallions nicely meet up in the same thread. But I won’t spoil the surprise nor the joy of the hunt for you by saying more.
Xplor
When you say a “black pope” what exactly do you mean? Have there been six African popes? Do you mean popes whose election was disputed – like the antii-popes? The term is new to me. Perhaps they wore black cassocks?
The black pope is the Superior General of the Society of Jesus. They wear simple black vestments, He is in charge of all Jesuits the largest male religious order in the Roman Catholic Church. You might to read the oath they take. It is the same as in the 15th century.
Diane,
Joy of the hunt: Anything to keep encroaching senility at bay! I shall do my best to keep my punning to a minimum, and stick to the facts!
😉
Explor
Perhaps the form for their religious vows is the same but to my personal disgust modern members of the order don’t even have to study Latin, these days. I hoped that a family member could be relied on to help me with medieval Latin – not a chance. He teaches geography or something, and after forty years I can still remember more of the Latin mass than he can! (Must remember to buy a black jumper) 😀
Diane, Xplor:
Do you have any idea of how difficult it is to get a copy of the Vulgate Bible? AND how difficult it has proven to be for me to get an Orthodox “Study” Bible which would be written in Greek?
I still think the $50 I paid is well worth the illustrations and maps within this Bible. Now that my husband has ordered a Greek-English dictionary for me, I am “praying” that the Greek words will be written in Greek script so that I can compare Greek and Latin scripts with the Vmscript. Who knows, I might even be able to read the Treaties of Nymphaecae (two treaties) in whatever language.
Adieu to this discussion page. It has been quite a trip, and it is time for me to continue my travels through some of Nick’s other discussions. I’ve recently found some very interesting documents in Leiden University’s archives (correspondence of Clusius and Busbecq). I’ll probably be spending quite a bit of time reading the white print/black material (photostat reproductions; very hard on my eyes but very rewarding).
A tout a l’heure!
Bdid1dr
You mention above (April 16, 2013 5:57 pm) Ellie’s finding distilling ovens. Do you remember where? I don’t see them now on her blog. (Ellie – if you’re about…?)
revisting these posts, I find yet another point where Thomas’ path follows mine (which is a good thing), just as so very often I found my path had been trodden earlier by Nick or someone from the old Voynich mailing list (it died in the early 2000s).
Hopefully, if enough people find their research-avenues lead independently to the same points, we will really start to get somewhere.
In this case, the item is Cuman, mentioned while discussing population transfer. I wrote more on it later, but this first mention is in my research notes/blog Findings (‘Papyrus and Byzantine Chess’, August 16th 2011) and includes the following from an academic source:
(quote)
in the 12thC, Pechenegs were settled in Macedonia, Serbs in Bithynia, and perhaps also Armenians there from Cilicia. In the 13th the emperors of Nicaea settled Cumans in their European as well as their Asiatic provinces.. ”
unquote
As Thomas has done since, I’s also found the region of Crimea and the Black Sea worth closer study, and like him I had come to focus early on the Genoese and the language of Cuman (though by mid-2012 my interest in the possibility of Armenian influence was less than it had been, initially).
I’ve already given Thomas the bibliographic details for the paper cited, but perhaps others may like to explore the same road. The more who do, the more who will understand why others including Thomas and me have spent time on it.
Charanis, Peter, “The Transfer of Population as a Policy in the Byzantine Empire”, Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol. 3, No. 2 (Jan., 1961), pp. 140-154