Many apologies, I thought I’d posted about this weeks ago but I obviously hadn’t, bah! 🙁
At 11am to 12.15pm this Saturday (20th June 2015), the York Festival Of Ideas will be hosting Cracking the Code, a 75-minute panel discussion with Bill Sherman (currently of the V&A), John Clark (University of York), Rene Zandbergen, and Sir Dermot Turing (Trustee of the Bletchley Park Trust). It’s at the University of York, and it’s freeeeeeee.
If you don’t know Bill Sherman, shame on you: he’s the person who curated the “Decoding the Renaissance: 500 Years of Codes and Ciphers” exhibition at the Folger Shakespeare Library from November 2014 to last March, that gave the Voynich Manuscript its first working holiday away from the Beinecke since Hans Kraus donated it to them. He’s also the author of “John Dee: The Politics of Reading and Writing in the English Renaissance” (on the shelf to my right), and numerous other books and articles.
The title of the session isn’t much help (nor indeed was the York Festival of Ideas PR), so I have honestly no idea what they plan to panelize (panelify?). When Rene and Bill did a talk at the Folger last November, it claimed to be a “conversation” that would “review what is known (and not known) and focus on new approaches to this old problem, including science and art history, Medieval and Renaissance history, codicology and conservation, and the history of collecting.”
Hmmm… ohhh kayyyy, then. 🙂
Anyhow, just in case they accidentally veer off into the marshy horrors of Baxland, I’ll bring a crate of rotten tomatoes: no pressure, people, but if you press that button, the stage will end up looking as if the red team won at Splatoon, I swear it.
But that aside, I’m looking forward to it. 😉
You could have posted this a little earlier. Harrumph!
“known and not known”… there’s dicey idea for a start.
Still, it’s a change of direction for Voynicheros and I’ve been longing to see someone from a museum involved. The V&A was a nice choice.
I’ll be watching to see whose research Rene decides to credit with turning up those items he presents, whether on the ‘known’ ór ‘not known’ side of his line.
https://www.voynichimagery.wordpress.com
PS No criticism of Rene, but I would like to see one of these events have a different point of view presented than his, which as far as I can see has been pretty static since 1999 – viz that the work is entirely an expression of western Latin Christian culture, from central Europe and German culture.
So it would be interesting from an insider’s point of view to see another person serve as the face of Voynich studies.
How about Knox? or Philip Neal? or even someone you may not know, Nick Pelling?
Emma May Smith: sorry! It’s been a bit crazy here, and I didn’t post this early enough. But I’ll report on what happens, hope that’s good enough. 🙂
No webcast? 🙁
Anton: I’ll ask if I can record it.
Great! Thank you in advance!
What?! They didn’t invite you? I certainly hope you will attend (if there will be audience facilities) Anyway, if you have to use your elbows to get a front-row seat — go for it!
Didja notice I closed my parentheses? Certainly they won’t object to your using a recording device?
Have good time; I’m sure you’ll get a round tuit sooner than later!
bdid1dr
Bd
There was a comment made about one of the earlier tv specials. On advice, a number of people to be interviewed were cancelled because Voynicheros are – as is proverbially said of the Greeks: one Greek, one party; two Greeks, three parties. Keeps everything simpler to just have one consistent angle publicised.
And there you have it! 🙂
It was a pleasure meeting you again Nick. I had not seen your post beforehand, but I think it was evident that there was no need for any red projectiles flying towards the stage.
On a different note, I wonder if I should object against all these insinuations that I don’t credit anybody else’s work, but I am sure that it won’t make a difference, and I daresay they can only come from people who don’t actually read my web page. Which of course nobody is forced to do.
I am, however, a bit selective, and I prefer to stay away from statements like: person X was the first to propose theory Y, when theory Y may well be completely invalid, and there is no way of knowning that person X was really the first. A little anecdote may show how many things have been proposed about the Voynich MS that almost nobody knows about.
On 2 November 1915, just after his Chicago exhibition, Voynich receives a letter from Dr. F.H. Garrison who is interested in using his cipher MS in his book on medical history, in connection with Rudolf II. The answer from Voynich is of interest, as he writes on 18 November:
“You can use as much as you like the details of the book for your medical history; but it belonged to Emperor Rudolph I., not II.” (Two years later, in a letter to Edith Rickert, Voynich still believes that it is Rudolf I, a contemporary of R.Bacon).
The author of the letter is Dr. Fielding Hudson Garrison (1870-1935) and the book referred to is his famous standard work: “An introduction to the history of medicine (1913)”. In the third issue of 1921, a 943-page volume, we find on page 161, under ancient Irish medicine:
“Ancient Irish medicine has many signs of Oriental provenance, particularly in the austere regulations of medical practive and quackery in the Brehon laws, which suggest the Code Hammurabi. A strange MS of Roger Bacon’s, written either in Gaelic or cipher, full of remarkable naturalistic miniature figurations of pregnancy, suggests some kind of esoteric or mesmeric magic, like that of the Hindu Fakirs (2).”
Note (2) says: “In the possession of Mr. Wilfred M. de Voynich”.
I assume, Rene, that your uncredited allusion here is to my wondering who would be credited with having influenced your thinking in your talk.
Speaking into the air is really not going to disguise the fact that you mean to reference my remark – so please do.
About my reservations on your attitude to credit – about ‘theories’ one can never be sure. It is rather when solid research and hard work produces certain conclusions – my conclusions about the principles informing construction of the botanical images were the result of several weeks’ work, analysis, research and comparative study – are to be considered something more than ‘theory’.
Similarly, my conclusions about folio 86v, which made me the first to recognise that it was a geographic map, and its range and extent, took about three months. I think that in this situation, I’m entitled to feel offended when my conclusion is taken up and repeated as if it had been found in a wiki article or as if one might bestow credits where one pleased, including upon ‘mates’ who, re-working the idea, have tried to pretend that it is some form of European T-O map.
This failure to distinguish between hypotheses and conclusions is actually quite a serious issue for scholars. And you’re quite right. It was after a number of instances where I found that you had credited a person who was not, actually, the person who deserved that credit that I began relying on other sources.
Sorry, Rene. But don’t worry. Like any other Voynichero, some like what one publishes, and some don’t so much.
I appreciate it all the more that you pay such attention to my work, credited or not.
See, Rene, and Nick,
I sympathize with you both — and you too, Diane. If all you have to work with are more recent repetitions of older guesswork and ‘possibly this or that’ from earlier studies and manuscripts, your research horizon can be rather bleak.
Fray Sahagun’s manuscripts (rough drafts and final commentaries)) were confiscated by the Inquisition. Several hundred years later, Voynich was able to retrieve the rough draft from the ‘Roman School’ archive –which had gotten remodeled and built around by the still-existing Gregorian University.
In the 1990’s, there was a short documentary film of one of the walls of the modern facility which was being torn down to enlarge its capacity — apparently several hundred very old manuscripts ‘came tumbling down’ (my simile/ref to “The Walls of Jericho”). This televised documentary occurred several years AFTER Pope John Paul II had made several visits to Mexico and South America.(bearing gifts of several hundred manuscripts which had origins in the “New World”.
I’ve translated some 30 folio’s in the so-called “Voynich” manuscript”. I’ve also been matching some of the recipe discussions with the botanical drawings/discussions. The recipe section is just that: roots, berries, or leaves, hot or cold liquids, proportions of each displayed within the flask, I haven’t found any discussion as to how long, or how to use, the ingredients.
I’ve mentioned, before, that those several folios of “bulleted” * paragraphs most likely were written instructions as to how to mix the ingredients for pharmaceutical purposes.
This morning, I’m making polenta pancakes & faux bacon for breakfast.
🙂
Diane: I don’t think that attacking Rene is in any way a good idea.
So Nick, do you think there was anything of comment in the talk? Or do you have any particular thoughts on it?
EMS: there was indeed a great deal of interest, but I haven’t had a chance to type it all up yet (that’s the real world for you, etc). 🙂
Nick,
It look more than two years to discover that it had been Philip Neal who first drew attention to Aldrovandi’s collection, noting similarities in style.
I was also offended, though you may not care one way or the other, when your ‘architectural thesis’ was re-presented by another person at one of the business meetings at Frascati. And so on, and so on, and so on.
I was never more embarrassed in my life than when a scholar from overseas contacted me, asking for some input into a paper that he had been invited to contribute “exploring an idea (sic) that folio 86v might be related to the portolan tradition”. He did not say, and I did not ask who had approached him, but I was able to show that this “idea” was another of my conclusions, and that among my bibliographic items was one of his works, and another by one of his close colleagues. If people wish to ‘monitor and correct’ my work, they are welcome – as long as the original work is properly cited.
btw – am I right in thinking that Jim Reeds first developed the ‘mailing list foliation’?
I suppose I’m annoyed, not least, by the amount of time I find I am having to spend these days in providing my publisher with evidence that this person’s sudden recognition of plant A occurs three days after I have first mentioned the same plant among my id’s; to another that the connection to the maritime tradition and ‘portolan’ charts never occurs before mine (that note to P. Han was mine). I have had to prove a string of negatives: no-one had interpreted folio 86v as a world-map. No-one had ever before mentioned … such a stupid situation; which I’ve only observed before in the madly competitive world of business.
Diane: I understand your resentment, and I think I also understand human nature. The pain that you have can only be avoided by not exposing yourself to it. That is, by closing yourself into your room and doing your research in private secrecy, without communicating with the outside world.
This Voynich explosion on the Internet entails free talk and free exchange of ideas. In that chaotic process the right to the recognition of the “I came up with this first” claims is generally neglected while both intentional and unintentional plagiaries thrive.
Unfortunately, even in industry where patents apply for protecting the right to intellectual property, thieving of ideas and the breeching of this right is common. Just like in academia. It is often contested who came up first with some scientific solution.
To be distant from this dirty aspect of human nature of glory hunting, best not to claim anything. Best not to have any pride in anything, however innocent that feeling of pride might be.
War is a dirty business and when peace comes nobody will celebrate the one individual soldier’s effort, his labour and pains, his shed blood, sweat and tears, his sacrifices, his injuries. The triumph of the victorious nation will be celebrated as a whole.
In my eyes, presently you too are recognised as one honourable soldier in the army against the Voynich mystery. If you do not want to be such soldier, then simply don’t be one. You could individually fight a private war, keeping all intelligence to yourself until after your own final victory.
It is probably of general interest to point out the source for the foliation used conventionally. It is explained in this section:
http://www.voynich.nu/descr.html#folios
and in particular notes 4 and 5, providing references to Jim Reeds and an even earlier source.
Rene
Diane: have you ever tried searching through the old (i.e. 1991- ) Voynich mailing list archives for Aldrovandi / portolan / mappamundi etc? In my opinion, the richest time for the formation of new cultural suggestions about the Voynich was the 1991-2000 period (sadly, just before I started).
I would be very surprised if the majority of things you talk about now were not first floated on the list back then: so if priority is a huge concern for you, I would suggest that you should check there as a first step in nearly all cases.
Diane and Rene, there have been several times when I have tried to comment on your discussions, to no avail. Partly because whichever mode I try to use (facebook, wordpress, etc) reveals my email
name.
Rene, your blog is particularly difficult on which to leave a comment. Thusly, I try to communicate via our host’s great blog.
Nick, if I am abusing the privilege of communicating on your blog, please let me know. I’ll ‘tone down’ the volume.
bdid1dr
Dear 1dr,
after many years of experience, with steadily declining satisfaction, I have become extremely reluctant to discuss about the MS in on-line fora like mailing lists and blogs. I should apologise for that.
The present thread here has become a bit of a temporary exception, for obvious reasons.
My web site was never intended as a medium for discussion. I am updating it quite regularly. Emphasis has drifted away from the question of ‘decryption’ of the text.
For comments on my web site, I prefer Email. The address can be found on the site map.
With best wishes, Rene
Dear Nick, Diane, & Rene,
Don’t get me started on the “Vinland Map” (anatase or not anatase, etc.)
Recently the Canadian gover n ment (Parks Systems) has been making the journey to L’Anse aux Meadows historic Viking site more easily approached.
I’m dismayed to discover that (20 years ago) I traded a couple of antique ‘Godeys Ladie’s’ magazines for an ancient stone spindle whorl. I am a hand-spinner/weaver — and had no idea that the whorl may have been stolen from the archaelogical site by one of the members of the team of researchers or workers.
I’ve tried to contact the Park administration — so that I can return the whorl (in much better condition than the one found by Anne Stine Ingstad).
BTW: I have spun several yards of my angora rabbit fur yarn on this very old whorl (I use a chopstick for the spindle).
Another use for those very small whorls (which hasn’t been discussed anywhere that I can find) would be for a warp-weighted loom — where each strand of the warp is anchored by a stone weight (rather than a wooden bottom bar).
I know — totally off-subject ; ho-hum boring. Believe it or not, a lot of planning/plotting/mathematics goes into every handwoven project. Some very old garments on display here and there (including silkworm production), and maybe even the material for sails (linen?) Or did the earliest sailors use animal skins for sails?
I’ll be searching the “Voynich” (aka: B-408) for any mention of flax or line — cotton?
Don’t get me started on rope.
😉
Diane,
it’s time to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
When you have literally EVERYONE rolling their eyes at you and explaining, in various degrees of niceness, that you are NOT the first person to think of a map for 86v *because there’s a bloody blinking T-O sign on it that would make anyone with even basic education understand that it is meant to make it look like a map*. Drop it. Just drop it. You’re embarassing yourself. I’m actually getting second hand embarrassment from watching you.
On another note: Just because you spend three months doing something doesn’t mean that you’re right about it: there’s a distinction between working hard and working well.
Finally, you have yet to prove yourself capable of putting forward anything solid regarding provenance or content. So, it was all Arab and then it was Asian then all Mediterranean, now it’s Jews who may have been in Italy but are *surely* drawing on material produced by North Africans… or Phenicians or is it still East Asians or have we moved on again, perhaps Mongolia, Greece or even Mali? Pick one, or just admit: “I don’t know, in fact, I’m floating from one idea to the next, comparing pictures, just like everyone else!” Your so-called conclusions are no more valid than anyone else’s iconographic comparisons, and a great many people have put forward ideas regarding oriental influence. (It remains, however, to be PROVEN, which you have NOT done).
You can’t just go around claiming FIRST FIRST FIRST when you aren’t even capable of articulating a clear, cogent, referenced and digestible version of what your so called “conclusions” are. I mean you can, but everyone’s gonna roll their eyes and laugh at you. QED.
Goose,
would you might putting this comment on my blog?
I’d better add the address. It’s where the information is posted which you appear not to have read.
http://voynichimagery.wordpress.com/
Nick, I’m hoping you will moderate ‘Goose’s’ abuse toward another long-time follower of your blog. Diane (and Ellie) tend to do most of their musing on their own blogs. I also would, if I could.
Most of all, folks, concentrate on your own offerings to Nick’s blog — and least of all keep the cross criticism to a minimum. I would hate to see Nick ‘close down’ for a while (if at all).
Thomas, are you related to Spande? If so, tell him hello for me.
beadier-eyed than ever
😉
Goose, don’t be a ‘silly goose’ — check out the Catalan Atlas, and take another look at the “Vinland Map” controversy through the works and writings of various curators, archaeolgists, and professionals: Birgitta Linderoth Wallace’s “Westward Vikings” is particularly interesting.
So far, I haven’t been able to find any discussion in re the material used for the Viking ships sails…..much less who made the sails …into the wild blue yonder.
I really wonder why little or no mention is made of “FINLAND”. Perhaps the interpretation of the Wiking stories which refer to “VINland” (and grapes) may have been discussing wild berries/vines which we call, today, raspberries, blackberries .(rubus). Is there any mention of trellis use for the so-called grape vines?
I still think we should also be taking a look at bog cranberries. Some of our northeastern states maintain cranberry bogs.
bd
bdid1dr: No, and why? Who is Spande? I am only a railway man with the little red flag.
Still, I don’t like either the harsh personal attacks. Best gently pacifying people, or putting them down light heartedly and always with respect. It is amusing to see so much ego. But I see most of the correspondents having so great and deep knowledge and I know how shallow is my foundation for the Voynich.
Yet, the marvellous thing is that it is there for all of us, and its lucky we cannot blow a hole in it with dynamite to find the entrance.
I am grateful to Nick too for his open blog and in no way would want it to be turned a troll field.
Another item of interest: Viking ship navigation — a carved wooden ‘sundial’ — which only worked on sunny days.
Rene, folio 3v is the ‘monks hood’ flower. The root section of the plant is indicating that the entire plant can be invasive — and the root especially is inimical to other garden plants. The written dialogue also explains further uses for ‘aconitum’.
I don’t know if there is more dialogue in those pages of ‘bulleted text (which may have been re-bound out of the original order).
Diane, I would, but your blog requires sign in with account services that I do not use.
It doesn’t matter. If you want to see my comment on your blog, just copy and paste it there as a comment to yourself. It looks like the only comments on your blog are posted by you commenting on your own posts anyway, so it won’t seem out of place.
BD, you’re right: artifacts can be very controversial… especially amongst academics. In fact that is my point: academics disagree over approaches, conclusions, methodology, and countless other things. If everyone agreed in a given field, said field would be dead. Competing views and strategies are the stuff of life and the life of research. This is what makes Diane’s claims that, because she is an academic, everyone must just accept her words entirely, antithetical to the whole dynamic of research. Claims should be challenged, propositions should be questioned. If critical thought was the enemy of research we would still believe the academics who told us that spontaneous generation and the geocentric model were the truth.
Claims should be challenged, propositions should be questioned.
– Absolutely. But by your methods, Goose,
If critical thought was the enemy of research we would have seen Einstein abused by other scholars and positively eye-rolled at the stake.
Critical thought is the essence of good research.
Dear colleagues,
The Voynich Manuscript is not an easy problem, so it turns out that when the Voynich researchers don’t have much to say about it they begin to fill the gap by saying something about each other.
Interestingly, I recently discovered that this phenomenon is not unique to the Western world. In the Russian VK group two guys (one tries to develop the natural language theory, the other – the synthetic language theory) are also vehemently attacking each other.
That is very funny.
I hope that I would not be excessively arrogant if, on behalf of many humble readers, I kindly suggest Voynich researchers to speak less of merits of themselves and faults of their opponents, but more – of the Voynich Manuscript.
As Robert Burns has it:
“O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
And foolish notion;
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
And ev’n devotion!”
Diane: I have read parts of your blog, and the idea of the plant roots as mnemonics captured my imagination. As I looked at the plant on 11r on Edith Sherwood’s pages, the plant itself resembled a face to me, with the two bottom leaves for eyes. Did you consider more than just the roots, to serve as mnemonic?
And then we have that very ‘thoughtful’ wheelchair-bound and ‘voiceless’ (computer-aided) scientist/professor who, so far, can’t be contradicted: Stephen Hawking. Fabulous!
Because of my hearing loss (and dependence on lipreading) I think y’all may finally understand my online name, which translates to ‘beady-eyed wonder’. (I can read with only one eye but am still able to wonder.)
Aw shucks, another famous ‘wonder-ful’ manuscript bites the dust: the “Vinland” map. But take a good look at the “L’Anse aux Meadows fabulous website.
😉
Anton: I claim it first that I have cracked the Voynich manuscript in zero percent extent so far. 🙂
BTW, folks:
Boenicke manuscript 408 folio 86v is ALL about the Alban Lake and Lake Nemi . Basically Alban Lake was the Pope’s summer hangout. Lake Nemi was noted for the ship-wreck buried in the mud.
Both lakes were favored by whichever Pope would be escaping from Rome for his summer vacation/retreat..
Nick and friends: I first tried to bring this to your attention shortly before y’all had your conference at Frascati. Tooo-late!
Diane: The root of the plant on 5v looks like an ant or some insect. I searched and the plant is beleived to be mallow, which has anti inflammatory uses.
I just thought on the mnemonic lines that insect bite can be treated and lo, there are references out there of mallow being used against insect bites, and bee bites in particular.
I’ll be re-visiting both lakes (via WWW) to see what progress they’ve made in bringing up the old shipwreck/shrine in Lake Nemi. Nemi is also known as “Diana’s Mirror” (and the oak grove nearby was also considered sacred (Artemis?). The Alban Lake apparently was favored for its spring fed waters. There several monasteries on its banks.
Oh dear me!
I just re-visited the Lake Nemi website which displays a replica of a pre-anno domini “Roman” ship (some 200 feet long — and apparently no cabin). Also displayed is a huge anchor.
The curators explain that the ancient ship remains were destroyed during WW II events. So, they may be calling it a Roman ship (pre-anno domini) but it appears to be indistiguishable from a Viking war ship .
Round n’round we go, again, and again……
🙂
Nick and friends. It is useless to argue about some ( firsts) leadership. Neither Zandbergen has a chance to find out who wrote te manuscript manuscript and what it contains. On the last page is written instruction to decrypt. At the same time there are several drawings. What is the top drawing i wrote to you some time ago. In the top picture is drawn key ( KEY). Drawing key tells you that there is written instruction. KEY. 100 years nobody could describe pictures and reliably say what they mean. I will now tell you what the picture mean. Figure 1 = key. Figure 2 = Fox. Figure 3 = a woman.
Figure fox is the name of the woman.
Everything is encrypted and written in the Czech language.
( Czech language word Fox = Liška.) A woman named Elizabeth. ( Czech language word Elizabeth = Eliška).
——————————————————-
Eliška here wrote instructions for decrypting and also told you his name.
———————————————————
(P.S. – neither Diana has no chance to explain what writing means).
The only one who has a chance to Nick. Because he knows, and he knows what it´s homophonic substitution. 🙂
Health and sometimes in the future.
( For Dummies – Eliska = Liska. )
Thomas – can you explain the “dancing man” on that folio? Seriously. It will be there for a reason.
Boyfriend: We all have equal chance to find out who wrote it and what is in the VMS. You have an equal chance, too. If the key is foxy lady Eliska, then use that key. It is simple. I for one already starting to figure out the czech language and catch up with you if you are too slow! 🙂
Thomas : I know the key. Key is written next to the pictures. It is written in the Czech language.
And he just wrote Eliška ( E Liška ). Elizabeth.
Thomas to read what is written there, you will be able to translate the manuscript. This is a very complicated substitution cipher.
Greetings. 🙂
Nick, with all the talk of the talk being in York, were you there? What was the focus of the talk? Will you be talking tall tales? I’m hoping y’all can leave D’Imperio’s booklet out of the discussion. Voynich apparently didn’t know that there was a generation or so between the two Rudolph’s. IF the manuscript ended up in Rudolph II’s collection of works of art and manuscripts, it was delivered to him by Ambassador Busbecq (by order of the Austrian emperor) upon his return from Suleiman’s court.
The battle of White Mountain pretty much disturbed the history and provenance of Rudolph II’s enormous archive of works of art, manuscripts, and even household items/furnishings. Also other things which disappeared were the Arabian horses and the Zoo (giraffe and lion). Not a fairy tale, but documented history.
boyfriend: when I was a schoolboy, I had a Czech made graphite pencil with traffic signs on it and their meaning in Czech. I will always remember that “zakaz vezdu cyklustu” means no entry with solo motorcycles.
My impression of the sound of the Czech language is that it is rich in consonants, like the name of captain Prmsk, for instance. Also many words end with “…du” while the “cz” combination frequently occurs too. I was trying to read the Voynich script with Czech pronunciation and it felt really Czech for me, too.
But what you are saying is equivalent to a claim of finding the cure of cancer. Hear this:
The lard from the hairy wild hog of the Plzen forest is the cure for cancer. It must be applied daily for two weeks, thinly spread behind the ears. The silly cancer researchers from all over the world will never find this cure because they don’t speak Czech. The Plzen hairy wild hog is there, you only need hunting it down and collect the lard. 😀
Diane: Oh my… Do you mean the 5v folio? I see a clownish figure on top, with a funny hat and two large hands. The legs form an impossible re-joining of two stems of the plant. No idea… Maybe alluding to the the dervish dance, a feverish condition…? You’ve got good eyes for simulacra!
Diane: Sorry, I meant not dervish dance but Saint Vitus Dance or Sydenham’s chorea. It can be a far fetched association from the plain “dance”, which itself is only an impression.
Tom, you’ll probably terribly clever. Those Armenians. Properly should be : zákaz vjezdu cyklistů. ( Closed to bicycles.)
What consonants ? Tomas realize that it is 500-year- old language. A Czech language has undergone some development. After all, as every language. Even English. So you can not search for words in contemporary language. On the side 116 is the written instructions for translation. Therefore, there is the picture drawn Keys. Those cancers.
Thomas,
The figure’s hands hold objects. I cannot find a reference to the marshmallow’s being used against St.Vitus’ dance, can you? I notice that the ‘insect’ at the root has a long, thin, tail-like thing.
Nick, have you been keeping track of the clown discussions? Or have you thrown your hands up in despair? I almost just began this query with “have you already thrown up…?”
bd1dr and Thomas – yes, a small thing. My own take from 2011 now honed and reposted, so no more wasting Nick’s space.
boyfriend: I am not clever at all. I set railway points with a lever.
I sense it that your efforts must have merit even if your peers see that you have not conclusively solved the Voynich mystery.
I would like to read your Internet pages in formal English, and see the coherent progression of reasoning. Unfortunately, presently it is just a patchy impression I get. Please commission a full quality translation.
The possible relevance of Barbara of Cilli interests me because I am originally from Hungary. I too have a feeling that the VMS may be of Czech or central European origin, close to Habsburg influenced lands.
Diane, Thomas, & Boyfriend: Czech, Hungarian, Serbian, Croat, Greek …. Possibles all. BUT the root language is Latin, whether any of the above languages are properly cited.
Once again, I refer you to Fray Sahagun’s Spanish language inasmuch he wrote the so-called “Voynich” manuscript as a short account of his education to be a monk. Upon his arrival in “New Spain” he taught at least two native students to write (in their own dialect ) and illustrate his teachings of botany, herbology, and medicinal remedies.
Both young men went on to create their own herbal medicine manuscripts (which I believe were written on paper). I have not been able to determine if Sahagun’s “Florentine” manuscript was vellum or paper (from bark of either/or both the ‘strangler fig tree or the mulberry tree).
Most problematic B-408 manuscript folios are 82 through 86. I have had cross-refer between these folios because a lot of mythology is being discussed, as well as illustrated. Numerous references to Artemis (the plant, as well as the goddess), An hallucinative mushroom is discussed (gods are Alcyone & Ceyx), And another hallucinative plant (fruit juice only being used) is the mandragore.
I’ve also identifed and discussed the difference between the water LILY and the water LOTUS. I’ve also differentiated the Saffron CORM from the look-alike bulbs (tulip, etc).
I refer you, once again, to the folios I’ve just mentioned.
BTW, we still have corms in a large ceramic pot (but we forgot to dig them up and divide the corms for future production of a pinch of saffron.
We regularly eat the contents of folio 15v — as well as bath with the ‘loofa’/lufa sponge’ of the cucurbit and/or squash vegetable.
Enough for today. Thanx, Nick for the forum!
beady-eyed one-der
BTW: I’ve recently gone off on a tangent: I’m now trying to find informed discussion of sail-making for the Viking ships. So far, I’ve found only a reference or two for whether the sails were linen, hemp, or wool. If wool, the thread would have been ‘waxed’ with grease obtained from under a horse’s mane.
I still can’t find a single word about the spinners and weavers of fabric for those enormous sails. How on earth were spinners capable of creating millions of yards/meters of thread. What kind of looms were used (weighted warp would have required ‘picking’ front and behind alternate threads). Whereas ‘standing’ looms would have had treadled ‘harnesses’ which would lift groups of threads for “twill” patterns. Twill would have been much sturdier than tabby).
I am still somewhat proud of my ‘doubled-woven’ blanket. I’m not going to bore you with the complexity of this type of weaving except to say that treadling and passes of bobbin carrier would create a folded over blanket which would open out and flatten into a much larger piece of fabric once it had been cut from the loom. The blanket was a tartan plaid.
Today is ‘Fourth of July” (Independence Day, in the US). I have no plans for pulling my tartan blanket out of the moth balls (go ahead, laugh — I can’t help if some of you have ‘dirty’ minds 😉 heh!
It is very hot today, forgive my awful, punny, humor. Later, this evening, we’ll probably be hearing firecrackers set off by the proprietors of the restaurant at the base of our mountain.
Have a great light show, any of you US inhabitants!
bd
bdid1dr: re. Native students in New Spain. Forgive me my ignorance. When I was little, I enjoyed learning to write in the first year in my primary school. Then we compulsorily used nibs dipped into an ink well. Only later started writing with the coveted grown-upish fountain pen. I did not manage to write fluently with perfectly formed letters in just a short time.
I need to imagine a realistic time frame for these native students, in which they first must have mastered a sort of calligraphic, esthetic writing in straight lines with a European, italic cut plume of a bird. First they must have become acquainted with this instrument if they have never seen one before. Then some years must have spent with learning the lettering, that is, the art of nice handwriting. Can you answer these issues in a support for your theory?
bdid1dr: Sorry, I forgot. We need to clarify it, do you mean that Sahagun was the author of the VMS but it was penned by his two disciples upon his dictation? Like secretaries for a boss? Or if not by dictation, then by guidance and some extent of free rein? Did Sahagun learn the natives’ language, or they knew Spanish or Latin to some level? How did they communicate about such abstract and scientific subjects that the VMS appear to pertain to?
Thomas,
You appear to have been fortunate in your teachers.
Yes, Thomas: The older Fr. Sahagun got, the more dependent he became on his scribes for writing and illustrating the “Florentine” manuscript. The scribes, themselves, appear in the “Florentine”: They show a ‘mulberry’ tree being strangled by a ‘wild fig’ vine/sapling. They show their process for making ‘a-ma-tl’ (paper) — from trees local to “New Spain”.
BUT the so-called Voynich manuscript material was vellum. It was vellum provided by the monastery, or vellum from Sahagun’s family supply.
The “Voynich” discusses and illustrates Sahagun’s home territory, his education at the nearby University (Leon Province) and his visit to the Papal headquarters and the Lakes local to Rome/Frascati.
The circular discussions cover a lot of territory between “home” (Europe) and “New Spain.
I have to take a meal break. I’ll continue later, today, I hope.
bd
In the past, I’ve teased Diane with the contents of Boenicke Manuscript 408 (also known as the Voynich ms) folio 56 r :
Dianthus, aka Caryophyllis,:, aka Carnation, aka Pink,
aka. Sweet William”. Also discussed in folio 56r are Diana’s Handmaidens aka Caryotides.
Also discussed are “Laconian Handmaidens in temples to Diana/Artemis.
Which is why I have had to resort to three full pages of lined paper to write a full translation of 19 lines of discussion on folio 56r.
Recently I posted some discussion of the Alban and Nemi Lakes — and the huge ship which was sunk in Lake Nemi. Another name for Nemi Lake and its surroundings was “Lago Nemorensis” (a reference to Diana Nemorensis, aka Goddess of the Moon), which sacred grove was on one shore of the lake.
So, how far will I go in my wanderings through wondrous territories, you ask? Some thirty-five folios, so far.
My optometrist has given up her efforts to keep my one reading eye in focus. So, I am now going to find a way I can enlarge the print on any online discussions which catch my interest.
Decoders, Tiltman and Friedman were not able to decode any of B-408’s contents because there was NO code. They may have taken one look at the chance to do some translating, and may have shaken their heads in dismay (as well as indicating “NO WAY!!!”)
All ‘grist for my mill’ …beady-eyed wonderer
Correction to ref ‘Goddess of the Moon’ : “Mirror of the Moon”
🙂
ps: Many manuscripts portraying night-time astronomical formations are not only portraying nautical navigation but also astrological (and fortune-telling) predictions for various ‘important people’ born under various star-signs. Hence the circular diagrams of sheep, goat, fishes, lion, half-human archer……. and development of a calendar.
🙂
Again ps: Somewhere along the astrological/astronomical path, a certain Pope re-designed the yearly calendar.
😉
Thomas: If you wonder about my reference to ‘Spande’, it is because of your mention of pen nibs having to be dipped into an inkwell. A couple of years ago, Thom Spande and I had a dialogue, here, on Nick’s page. I complained about being forced to use those gawdawful nibbed pens for learning handwriting (as opposed to printing). Being left-handed (a ‘southpaw’) and all the quill-pens having been used by countless right-handed writers — I was not able to legibly write with any of the pens which had been used by those countless right-handed children.
Thom Spande did a ‘riff’ on my complaint — as far as it was ‘an uphill battle”, and me crying all the way — but still victorious in the long run (uphill)…..
Heh!
😉
ps: At that time, I think Thom Spande was still working for the National Health Science Institute.
Nick: NIHS (National Institute of Health Science) ??
ps: Thom Spande contributed to various publications issued by the NIHS. Diane may remember him, also. At one point ThomS likened Nick’s blog to be a garden where all blooms would thrive. (Sumthing like that.)
bd
🙂
One final note in re quill-tip ink pens: When my 5th grade teacher realized that I had been taught to read and write by my older sister (also a southpaw) — my teacher came up with a remedy which satisfied the ‘rules’ by which teachers had to follow:
She loosely bound my left elbow to my waist, so that I would no longer be writing with my wrist ‘upside-down’. She also found a brand new pen for my left-handed use.
Actually, if I had been living in Muslim territory, I would not have been allowed to write with my left hand — for sanitary reasons.
So, I 1-dr if Mexican/South American scribes were taught to write with R-hand only. By the way; feathers of all types were highly valued by local inhabitants for their various ceremonies. Even Fray Sahagun had doubts about the festivals and church events, as far as separating ‘heathen’ worship (parades and dances) from “Christian”. Sahagun even went so far as to compose a bi-lingual “Psalmodia”.
Voynich manuscript.
sorry for my English
I recently showed a reproduction of one of the pages of this manuscript.
I saw something similar in Russia.
This text was written with the monastic code.
This code was used by the monks of the Russian North. This text is mention of
specific geographical locations. But there is one strange thing is not
characteristic of the religious texts, where there are elements of
proproseskih texts. indicating that the church is not the origin of the text.
in principle, the text is readable and understandable, but it is surprising
and strange for that time when it was written.
Hi Nick: I’m sorry I didn’t read your post before last fall (of 2015).
I was both at Bill and Rene’s talk in Washington in November of 2014, then at the NSA Conference in Washington, DC., in October 2015. At the NSA event, I got to meet Sir Dermot Turing, and ask him a few questions. If I had noticed your post, I would have seen he had some interest in the Voynich, and might have asked him his views on that.
As it was, I did ask him what he thought of the “accidental cyanide on an apple” theories of his uncle’s death. As you know, some propose that he may have gotten cyanide on an apple he was eating, because he was handling the poison while gold plating spoons. But Sir Turing told me that the quantity of cyanide ingested was far too great to be an accidental transfer to an apple, and that he thought it was certainly suicide.
Did you have a chance to discuss the Voynich with him?
Good day!
My name is Nikolai.
To a question about the key to the Voynich manuscript.
Today, I have to add on this matter following.
The manuscript was written no letters, and signs for the letters of the alphabet of one of the ancient languages. Moreover, in the text there are 2 more levels of encryption to virtually eliminate the possibility of computer-assisted translation, even after replacing the signs letters.
I pick up the key by which the first section I was able to read the following words: hemp, hemp clothing; food, food (sheet of 20 numbering on the Internet); cleaned (intestines), knowledge may wish to drink a sugary drink (nectar), maturation (maturity), to consider, to think (sheet 107); drink; six; flourishing; growing; rich; peas; sweet drink nectar and others. It is only a short word, mark 2-3. To translate words consisting of more than 2.3 characters is necessary to know this ancient language.
If you are interested, I am ready to send more detailed information, including scans of pages indicating the translated words.
Sincerely, Nikolai.