According to https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-30/somerton-man-researcher-rules-out-link-to-wife/101281666, Carl Webb and Dorothy Jean Robertson were (according to their marriage certificate) married on October 4, 1941 at St Matthews in Prahran, when Carl was 35 and Dorothy was 21: they were living on Domain Rd in South Yarra. (Note: Trove gives you far more hits with “Domain Rd” than with “Domain Road”, but I haven’t found any small ads from there.)
Yet most of the Webb-Robertson family trees that have quickly sprung up in the last few days (e.g. the one on familysearch maintained by “MichaelBennett14”) seem to think she was born in 1905 or 1907 and died in 1965 or 1996. So… what did actually happen? Who was Dorothy Jean Robertson?
The Candidates
According to findagrave.com, a Dorothy Jean Robertson died on 1 Jun 2001 aged 80–81 in Hornsby, Hornsby Shire, NSW. However, there were at least two Dorothy Jean Robertsons in NSW who first appear in the electoral rolls in 1943, one in Cargelligo, the other in Bathurst. The former was likely Dorothy Jean Robertson born 2 Aug 1921 in Ardlethan (no date of death given, but the user family tree says that she died near Lake Cargelligo). So my current guess is that the Hornsby DJR was the Bathurst DJR (and that she therefore wasn’t the DJR we’re looking for), but please feel free to correct me.
I’m 99% certain we can rule out the Dorothy Jean Robertson who was the only daughter of Mrs and Mrs A. Robertson (of 20 Perth-st, Prahran), because she was due to marry William McKerchan (only son of Mr and Mrs T H Hardwick, of 157 Moore-st, Ararat) on 12 April 1947 at St Matthews’, Prahran. Which, given that ‘our’ DJR was still married (albeit not happily) in 1947 would be tricky.
Similarly, we can rule out the Dorothy Jean Webb who died in Colac on 19 Nov 1996, because she was buried with her husband Stanley Douglas Webb (courtesy of billiongraves.com). And to support that, there’s a long series of electoral roll references to the two (plus Leslie Douglas Webb and Beatrice Mary Webb) at 413 Cooke-st, Ballarat West (e.g. 1949, 1963, 1968, 1972, 1980).
So we’re kind of left (unless you know better) with the widow called Dorothy Jean Robertson who died in 1965 in Balwyn (according to PROV), though if she was born around 1920, you’d probably think that that was quite young. And archives are almost by definition incomplete, so the notion that we’ve eliminated all other alternatives would be rather foolish. Hence we now need to take a different tack to make any progress…
A Second Marriage?
In 1952, Dorothy Jean Webb divorced Carl Webb in absentia: but did she subsequently remarry? Ancestry.com and familysearch don’t seem to have any Dorothy Jean Robertsons getting married in Australia in 1952 to 1972 (and the same for Dorothy Jean Webbs).
But I had a plan: I went into ancestry.com and brought up all the women called “Dorothy Jean” in the 1954 Electoral Roll in Victoria (the South Australia electoral rolls only really go up to 1949, so they weren’t any use for what I had in mind). Then – cunningly, I thought – I’d be able to search the list for any chiropodist.
Except… if you put anything in the Keyword field (e.g. hoping to pick up, say, “machinist” or “teacher”), Ancestry doesn’t have them in the index. So (unless you know better) it seems that you can’t actually search for occupation in these Australian electoral roll. Which, as we say in the UK, is a bit ‘pants’.
Regardless, I decided to soldier on: how bad could manually searching through 1392 Dorothy Jeans in the 1954 Victoria Electoral Rolls be? Let’s just say that after 350 non-chiropodists, I gave up with eyestrain and headache. Maybe I’ll continue another day (or maybe I won’t).
So: while it’s possible she remarried in 1952 or later, I haven’t yet seen any evidence that supports this.
The Bute Connection?
According to Derek Abbott, by 1951 Dorothy Jean Webb had moved to Bute in South Australia. However, the South Australian electoral rolls only really go up to 1949 (and even then only patchily): and there seem to be only two Dorothy Jeans listed in Bute (Dorothy Jean White and Dorothy Jean Snodgrass, both in 1939 and 1941). And even if you search for “Robertson” in Bute’s electoral rolls, you get zero results.
So while it’s entirely possible that Dorothy Jean Webb did indeed move to Bute, it seems that the electoral rolls are so sketchy around there for that time period that we can’t use them to try to track her.
What else might we try to use a connection between Bute and the Robertsons? Searching findagrave.com (and billiongraves) for anyone with the surname Robertson buried in Bute yielded only two people:
- David Martin Robertson, 1932-2002 (at Ashford Hospital, according to the ‘Tiser)
- Lynette Ruth Robertson, 1930-2012 (at Moonta Hospital, according to the ‘Tiser)
A MyHeritage family tree says that David Martin Robertson’s parents were Thomas Robertson and Mary Robertson (nee Spence), and that Lynette Ruth Robertson (nee Hocking) was his wife.
Ancestry.com also had:
- Lily Robertson, d. 25 Aug 1910
OK, it’s clear I’m making heavy weather of this, so I’m guessing that Derek Abbott has some specific information here that I’m not aware of. Perhaps all this stuff will come out over the next few days.
*** Update ***
Retrying the same keyword search for “Dorothy Jean” and “chiropodist” via the FindMyPast search interface was much more successful. Even though the keyword match triggers if “chiropodist” is anywhere on the same page, this was enough to reduce the number of hits to manually go through to a mere 7 (down from 1392).
Alas, the only actual Dorothy Jean who was listed as a chiropodist anywhere in the electoral rolls was Dorothy Jean Webb, for the year we already knew about. So this was a nice idea that didn’t actually work out.
NP: think, rather than making fun of the widow D. J. Robertson (circa. 1917) machinist of Prestons in 1956, we’d best take a more serious look inter her credentials for a link to Abbott’s Carl Webb. If we could get a peek at the 1941 marriage certificate and the bride’s signature thereupon that would serve to confirm or rule her out of contention.
NP: Thought I’d already semi ruled out, not in so many words, Dorothy Robertson being kin to the couple in Bute cemetery, David Martin being likely sole relict of original settlers from 1850s. My further inquiries of Robertsons in nearby Moonta was likewise unproductive and nothing else noteworthy was gleaned apart from the usual flood of Charles Webbs in other parts of regional S.A.
Also DJR who died in Balwyn in 1965 can be ruled out: According to the Ryerson index, she already was 72 years old: https://ryersonindex.org/search.php. Since I have no newspapers subscription, I couldn’t look for her obituary in The Age from 8 June 1965.
Thomas: I’d forgotten the Ryerson index, thanks for reminding me! Yes, this would seem to rule out the Balwyn DJR.
Incidentally, I also found this for the Balwyn DJR (first entry on page), but it doesn’t give her age etc:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/vic_gazette/1965/80/1965_3088.pdf
MyHeritage also has a Dorothy Jean Robertson, b. 1920, Ballarat, Victoria, Australia, to John Comber Robertson and Alice Robertson (nee Stratford).
John Comber Robertson, born 1894 Omeo, Victoria to Robert Robertson and Mary Kate Comber (Australia Birth Index), died 6 Jan 1989 (retired caretaker). On the Victoria Electoral rolls for 1919 (Beeac, Corangamite), 1922, 1925, 1927, 1928, 1931 (Brunswick West, Bourke), then a gap to 1954 (Essendon North, Lalor), 1963 (1963 St Kilda North, Isaacs), 1968, 1972, 1977 (Fawkner, Burke), 1980.
On 23 Jan 1924, John Comber Robertson was in the Victoria Petty Sessions Court in Colac (ref: 301/P0/Vol 62). Complainant R Batterbury, default summons 20/12/1923, 5 shillings fee, charge “Goods sold & delivered”, struck out, no defence. (Findmypast)
John Comber Robertson and Alice Robertson married in Victoria in 1919. (Ref: 2782)
Nick Pelling: what’s the delay with the marriage certificate. Last one I did was for Prosper & Queenie only eight bucks and got all I needed to stitch him up with US con men Burch Bros. Inc. in a trice. Unfortunately I don’t have the ability to do on line pay to play stuff any more due to changed foreign currency regulations here in paradise. So if we’re to have a good shot at both Carl & Dot, we’ll be needing those additional signatures and names of witnesses. All this stuffing about is not doing us any favours.
According to this MyHeritage family tree:
https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10109-73409482/alice-robertson-born-stratford-in-wikitree
Alice Robertson (nee Stratford) was born in 1896, married John Comber ‘Jack’ Robertson on 02 Jun 1919 in Mildura, died 1980.
According to this Wikitree page: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stratford-642
According to this page: https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10547-2312149/alice-robertson-in-australia-victoria-death-index?s=1398362742
Alice Robertson died in Brunswick, Victoria in 1980. (Ref: 05849)
John Sanders: as with every other thing, I’m on it…
OK so Carl’s older brother Russell was born in St. Arnaud where the Robertson’s had a pub, that’s something we can link to if the Webbs knew them in those days.
Barrier Miner of 11/9/48 reports on two sheilas, Dorothy Robertson of Melbourne and Jean Auld of Sydney setting off from Adelaide on the first leg of an epic inland journey to Birdsville. Guess that would have to have them camped around about Bute on their first night if they were on bicycles had they left from Glenelg bright and early. Not too far off the money but that would be conjecture on my part as usual. Right Deni & Jacquie?
John Sanders: well, PROV has now taken 20 AUS (i.e. £12) for my order, so hopefully I’ll get a crispy digital download of the 1941 marriage certificate sometime in the next three weeks or so. Given that they’ve had to dig the same marriage certificate out (almost certainly digitising it) recently, this may well end up taking a little less time than the worst case scenario, but I’m not holding my breath.
John Sanders: much to my pleasant surprise, the digitised marriage certificate came back very quickly. So I’ve collected together all the details (together with my notes here) into a single post:
http://ciphermysteries.com/2022/07/31/carl-webb-dorothy-jean-robertsons-marriage-certificate
Nick Pelling: good for you, same deal with my last search. Also it be my pleasure to reveal that the bride and my WIDOW returning home from Christchurch in 56 be one and same based on handwriting comparison between that on the marriage certificate and her flight arrival card. There is a four year discrepancy in age but, as you’ll be aware all women lie about their age, an at times annoying prerogative that does not stop there. Interesting that in death Dorothy Jean and my old ballet dancer Thadee Slavinsky lie close by at Andersons Bay cemetery Dunedin.
….so she either knew or assumed Carl was dead by 1956, unless of course she lied to Australian immigration about her widowed status. The plot thickens!
…..Also no surprise to learn that there be Bute Streets or Roads in each of New Zlnds four major cities, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin.
John Sanders: the NZ BDM records have a whole raft of different Dorothy Jean Robertsons, but only one born in 1920.
Why would Dorothy need to lie to Australian Immigration about her widowed status. Dorothy and Carl were both born in Australia so they would not have any dealings with Immigration.
Glen: she could well have been on the lam for and not without good cause, most likely it something to do with the unreported disappearance of her estranged husband Carl and knowing that a change of DOB and recorded marital status on something like an arrival card would not trigger any red flags. This theory be based on the assumption that at some point prior to 1956 she had travelled to New Zlnd, as shown by her return passenger card for that year, out of character so perhaps to scout out a suitable place for succor, either alone or, in my opinion with a confederate. Later she appears to have returned accross the Tasman to the ‘big island’ directly and was content to spend the remainder of her life in a safe haven like Dunedin (most isolated large city in the southern hemisphere). Conjecture of course but with some insight based on a deal of experience of similar by-passing of authority by the criminal element. Note on the PC that Dorothy’s ‘Nationality (on passport)’ ie., ‘British’ (deception) printed with another pen but still in her hand, much of the other detail being in cursive script which seems identical with that on her 1941 MC.
Dorothy Jean Robertson was born at Ballarat on 18 July 1920 (the FamilySearch entry has now been corrected). She had one known sibling, Phyllis (1925-2012) who married James Crick in Victoria in 1946. I tracked down the probate records for John Comber Robertson on the PROV website, and only Phyllis and James Crick were named in the Will.
Dorothy is listed (first name only) on the death records for James and Alice Robertson. She is certainly a mystery lady!
Angela: that’s really fantastic, thanks for that! I’m sure there’s still a lot to be found out, though I suspect the next big tranche will emerge from the Crick family (who I’m contacting at the moment).
Clutching at straws as usual however, referring back to my recent post where Barrier Miner did their piece on two ‘girls’, Dorothy Robertson and Jean Auld setting forth on their epic journey up country Birdsville in September ’48. I did not think it of any note at first bluff that aforemention DR was prefixed with ‘Sister’ but her being a Chiropodist, perhaps she had gained the qualification whilst working as a nurse. That would certainly not go contrary to the little we know about Doff would it?. It might even explain her pre marital and formative years as a complete non entity, from a research perspective of course. I recall that her buddy was aged 27, certainly not a girl and the subject herself was the same age or thereabouts. So if my musing has any validity (a long shot undoubtedly), the timing just 2 months pre SM’s demise might hold some significance, especially in that Jean Auld (never married) was from Sydney and partner Sister Dorothy Robertson from Melbourne.
James? But Dorothy’s father was John Comber Robertson, right? Sometimes called Jack? But not James…
I beg to report that I have now confirmed that four previously thread nominated Dorothy Jean Robertson entities, Dorothy Jean Robertson, Dorothy Jean Robertson, Dorothy Jean Robertson and a Dorothy Jean Robertson from Christchurch, Timaru, Waitaki and Andersons Bay respectively, have all been cleared of any culpability in the disappearance of Dorothy Jean Webb nee Robertson.
Nick
Steve H has travelled to London today in search of a decent pair of spider silk pyjamas and suitably matching paisley patterned robe to go with the turban and slippers he purchased a few years ago on a business trip to the city of Udaipur but has asked me to pass on some information he has obtained to you.
He contacted Derek Abbott a couple of days ago and asked him the following question. “Do we know when Dorothy Jean Webb nee Robertson was living in Bute, South Australia? They have been getting terribly exercised about this over at Cipher Mysteries. Did she die in the town? I wouldn’t imagine there was much else to do there.”
Prof Abbott kindly replied “The only evidence we have of her in Bute is she signed a divorce document in 1951 and gave her residence as Bute, South Australia. But the Bute town history group have nothing on her in their records. This leads me to suspect she just was transient and maybe stayed on a farm there for less than a year. I wonder if between 1947 and 1951 she was in Adelaide itself? Adelaide would certainly need to be a step before Bute, as it would be unlikely that she would know anyone from Bute coming ‘cold’ from Victoria. So a good bet would be to search for her on Adelaide Rate Books.
As for what happened to her later in life, all I have are oral statements from relatives that she is known to have died in NSW in the late 1990s and that her sister sent money to pay for her funeral. So I suspect she didn’t stay too long in SA and wound up in NSW for the rest of her life. The difficulty with tracking her maybe due to name changes through serial marriages or otherwise.”
Mr H then replied to Prof A stating “Thanks for replying to my query so fully. One reason I asked is that on Dorothy’s WikiTree page someone has written: “In 1949 Dorothy Jean Webb, chiropodist, was enrolled at 69 Murphy Street, Elsternwick. There were no other people surnamed Webb enrolled at the same address.[5] 5. Australia, Electoral Rolls, Victoria, 1949, Balaclava, sub-division of Elsternwick retrieved through ancestry.com (subscription $) Ancestry Record 1207 #32139389”
To his credit the Prof immediately replied “The 69 Murphy St is correct I believe.”
As Mr H’s private psychiatric nurse I would like to add that in reality he is a deeply sensitive and troubled soul despite his stiff upper lip attitude and haughty and sometimes garrulous nature. He asked me to pass on his commiserations on your loss of faith in Pierre Bourdieu. As he always says he is “a leader, not a follower” but can sympathize with the pain that anyone who has become disenchanted with their guru must feel. He also says that he appreciated your little joke about Michel Foucault, adding that “the old ones are always the best”
He sends his regards to one and all at Cipher Mysteries and hopes to rejoin the conversation at some point when he has recovered from the nervous exhaustion caused by some of his recent contretemps.
With my regards
Ann
I have asked this before and I will ask it again, where’s the evidence that Dorothy Jean Robertson was born on 18 July, 1920?
If her sister needed to pay for her funeral and if she had married again, her husband had already died and she had lost all their money and assets… Dorothy seems to be as mysterious as C.Webb.
Pat:
I think the date, at least its year, is from her marriage certificate a copy of which Nick Palling already has received, per his post. There she is listed as being 21 years old, the certificate date being 1941. Her birth certificate record searchable here https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history online has the following information:
Record information
Event: births
Registration number 17944 / 1920
Family name: ROBERTSON
Given name(s) Dorothy Jean
Place of event: BALLARAT, VIC, Australia
Personal detail
Mother’s name , Alice
Mother’s family name at birth STRATFORD
Father’s Name: , Jno Comber
Perhaps I misunderstood your question, and you were specifically asking for the month/day info, or something else.
@ Behrooz, thanks. Yes, I meant the month/day. I would like to see the evidence for them.
Thanks Ann O.
Perhaps we have to consider whether you actually need to be in Bute to say you’re in Bute (although impressive to come up with it if you’ve never been there, I suppose). If you wanted a smoke screen (perhaps because you’re afraid of a violent ex) might you grab an interstate map and just find somewhere remote to use?
Picking up here on Steve’s sleuthing. The idea of Charlie heading to South Australia in search of Doff (as put forward by Professor Abbott and others) seems off the mark. Indeed, Dorothy Jean Webb, chiropodist, was living at 69 Murphy Street Elsternwick (now Brighton) in 1949 (according to the electoral roll).
Unfortunately the State Library is missing a copy of the 1948 Sands and McDougall Directly of Victoria. There may be a microfiche copy of both the 1948 directory and information in the Port Phillip phone book at the Prahran Mechanics Library, on microfiche… I believe these may contain more information….
https://library.pmi.net.au/fullRecord.jsp?recno=10862
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/99328562?searchTerm=ROY%20%20WEBB Anyone know if this is the same Roy Webb the brother?
For what it’s worth a Dorothy Jean Darcy shows up all alone and unwanted in the RC section of Peak Hill cemetery with only her name and an internment year 1963. Clutching at straws but she may have been passed over due to the D’arcy variation recorded.
In regards to Pat’s query about Dorothy’s exact date of birth, I obtained a copy of her birth record which states: Date of birth 18 July 1920 (District of Ballarat) Father John Comber Robertson Farmer age 25 born Ensay Gippsland Married 2nd June 1919 Mildura Mother Alice Robertson nee Stratford age 24 born Fitzroy Informant JC Robertson Father of Cundare North via Beeac. Cundare north is adjacent to Lake Coorangamite and north of Colac. It is difficult to read where she was born – it says ………? street, City of Ballarat, County of Grenville. Can’t make out the street name. At least it is helpful to confirm her exact date and location of birth.
@RichardD,
Thanks a lot!
Jo,
Assuming good faith on the part of Abbott, I wonder if it really means that CW was under the mistaken belief that Dot/Doff was beaut in Bute, although … that might also tend to cast CW’s demise in a sinister light, e.g. her second cousin happened to be the Dr pronouncing death at the hospital, mid-morning on 1 December.
Em,
Thar Roy sounds like a long-term resident of the Goulburn area. It’s possible, but I think Carl’s brother Roy was driving a bread van for the family business in Melbourne at the time?
Dorothy Jean Darcy is a no go based on disclosure of her being born Reid at Cootamundra 1917. She was reported missing from her home in ’36 aged 19.
Did Dorothy died in NSW, according to Abbot? If yes, can someone check Dorothy Jean Higham (1920-1998), Palmdale Crematorium and Dorothy Patterson (b. July 1920), Sandridge Cemetery, Mollymook? The Billion Graves website is not working when I click to see the photos…
Dorothy Blunden (b.1920, d. 7 July 1996), death location: Old Bar, grave: Newcastle Memorial Park, Baresfield.
I couldn’t find her on MyHeritage
Pat: forget D. J. Higham (1920/98) she married George pre 1946 and migrated from UK. As for Dorothy Paterson (one Tee) in Mollymook, just a white wooden cross for her and no bio. There is of course a Dorothy Jean Patterson 28/8/20 – 25/2/94 in Footscray. Why them Pat?
Hold up a tick, where did Dorothy’s chemist credentials spring from or is that one of the many U.S.A. derived distractions we’re currently being subjected to. I found an Ina May Robertson passing her chemists exam 12/9/40; could that be the one?
@John Sanders, thanks! I’m just trying to eliminate possible candidates if Dorothy has decided to drop her middle name… as a matter of fact there are some Dorothy’s born in 1920 who had been buried/cremated in NSW in the 90s without any other information.
Pat: the reason we haven’t investigated Peteb’s Estyn claims previously would be quite clear to anyone with a modicum of intuitive nouse. Simple logic tells us that a similar like name scrawled on the flyleaf of a vastly different version of a Rubaiyat claimed as being ‘identical’ to one given to police, by Sister J. E. Thomson and subsequently dismissed is telling. Put that alongside Katie-Dee’s wild erratic fancy of former S.A. rail employee Estyn Dick Jones’ connection to the case through pre war residency at Henley Beach and an unused HB rail ticket found in a dead man’s pocket in 1948, and what do we have?…Sweet Fanny Adams thats what!
Dorothy just didn’t want to be found, now or then! She is as much as mystery as Charlie. The only clear evidence attached to her is her birth, marriage and the divorce statement, which Colleen Fitzpatrick has reported on but which isn’t in the public domain. It certainly doesn’t sound from this account like a happy marriage!
Re opportunities for pharmacy work, there were a few pharmacies very close to Charlie and Dorothy’s home on Domain Road:
– 304 St Kilda Road (WH London in the 1930s) (now Spence and Larder cafe, the pharmacy moved to an arcade at 401 St Kilda Road around 2008),
185 Domain Road (run by Miss Ida Tait in the 1930s) – established in 1927 and still a small pharmacy! Domain Pharmacy
(some Robertsons ran the nearby grocers at 133 Domain Road – could be coincidence)
– 85 or 89 Millswyn Street – not sure at what stage this became a pharmacy – it is now a private home (85-89 Millswyn) but still has Chemist written on the side! In the 1930s it was a grocers. This is next door to where Miss Nichol was seeking a piano via correspondence, the same time that Charlie had provided a phone number for same (see @ Nick in Small ads)
Quite by chance, I found a Dorothy Webb in the 1984 Victorian Electoral Roll at the SLV today listed at 4/17 Bowen St, Hawthorn. This is 250 metres as the crow flies to Swinburne (University). There’s a very poor image here (combination of clapped-out microfiche reader, and dumbphone camera):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16hDuMGoHVhyVhtTJ9ouwDP7sv959Df3V/view?usp=sharing
@Warwick, if she had been granted divorce by 1952 she wouldn’t have kept the Webb name.
@John Sanders
Regarding Estyn Jones, you win, man! Now drop it. I’m not Australian, I don’t live in Australia and I have just started to read all things Somerton Man, so excuse me if I don’t know all the accurate facts, opinions, theories and wild fantasies going around for the last 74 years, not to mention lack of access to Australian documents. The register report I have access to on MyHerirage says Henley Beach was his residence.
Maybe I should post on Abbott’s FB group instead. I bet you would like that.
@Jo I saw a post advertising a watch being given as a gift to Mr Roy Webb is he the same one? Then there is the watch that Prosper was looking for. ..
Pat: in your Estyn Jones distraction you had the pilchards and other small fry swim right into your net, thus taking heat off the overloaded Carl Webb initiative. In my opinion Estyn Jones was not living at Henley Beach in 1948 so by naming Katie Dee as the disinformation source I knew that the real culprit would eventually come forward to claim ownership of the HB ruse. Thanks for clearing that up and best of British luck should you be thinking of puting your unique talents to work for Derek Abbott’s FB site.
For those of you who haven’t twigged to Colonel Sanders’ link between Doff and Dr John Barkly Bennett here it is in black and white:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Robertson-11194
Click on Duncan Robertson’s descendants.
A “finger lickin'” good find John.
Of course it might be one more big red herring. Just like the scribblings in the back of the Rubaiyat with “Jo Thomson’s phone number”, which might have been a Melbourne number, not written there by SM himself, or more likely with ref to Prosper. Perhaps SM fancied a jaunt in one of Prosper’s sedans up to the Mount Lofties. I knew a bloke who was bitten by a bandicoot in the Mount Lofties – his love life was never the same.
Ann O. Yep, there’s our Bruce the family historian, Robertson, Bennett ,Crick and maybe Keane. Speaks for itself the whole shebang. I hadn’t gone that far back seeing no need it was just before Abbott’s ID game changer however, with regard to the early days when the Robertson’s were raising their lincoln and merino flocks up around Wagga Wagga and Junee districts, so too was Francis Keane. I picked up on these Keanes while running SAO Captain Webb’s short term 1948 joint tenancy neighbour and grandson of the above Frank Keane of 47 Smith St. Southwark, a metal machinist and later manager of some concern in Adelaide. Small world ain’t it.
Sanders
When you said Smith Street, Southwark, I was thinking Sarf London where my own ancestors on my father’s side hail from. My own beloved grandpa, who died before I was born, selfish bastard, was a Lambeth boy and got married in the church which became Southwark Cathedral back in the the days when Queen Vic herself was on the throne. Turns out Southwark is the former name of Thebarton in Adelaide. Why do they keep changing the names of the suburbs in Adelaide? St Leonards > North Glenelg. Do they have an inferiority complex? Why don’t they change the name of the city to Best City in the World? Cos they know it’s not I suspect.
As an aside some great footage of the City Baths in the ’40s:
https://youtu.be/4pMuZPeNlgw
Sounds like your sort of music John – not quite Count Basie, but still!
Pat: don’t take any notice of John Sanders, in truth he’s a softy. 😁
Ann O: think your sadly departed grandpa from Lambeth and I had something in common bless his black heart…Was the tune in your wartime Adelaide pool clip taken from ‘doing the Lambeth Walk’ from the film ‘Me & my Tart’ (very similar).
Ann O, a suburb of Adelaide was originally named Chicago, now re-named as Kilburn. Perhaps the local council leader was named Capone?!
I have been going through a few death notices etc and can confirm the following:
To date I have looked at 303 notices most of which are under either “Dorothy Jean” or “Doff”
Some have been discussed on here and still triple checking against the content of the actual notices, plaques/headstones if available and BDM records where required.
So far I have ruled out 96 people based on their age at death.
Of the 303 records : there were nine possible people at the correct age: to date I have ruled out four of these as death notices confirmed for example wrong siblings, marriages when we know she was with CW or again ages dont match.
One interesting name & forgive me if this has already been mentioned is a notice for Dorothy Jean Macpherson who died in Broken Hill on 30 Dec 1996:
‘Sydney Morning Herald 1.1.1997 p. 33’
The family and friends of the late Dorothy Jean Macpherson (formerly of Bar Beach and Broken Hill) are respectfully informed of her passing on December 30 1996 at the Broken Hill Hospital.
A Memorial service will be held at Scot’s Kirk, Tudor St, Hamilton (Newcastle) at 2pm on Saturday (4th Jan 1997).
Fred J Potter & Son
Funeral Directors AFDA
Broken Hill.
Scots Kirk is the Presbyterian church in Newcastle.
https://www.newspapers.com/image/legacy/120433207/?terms=Dorothy%20Jean%20macpherson&match=1
On ‘Find A Grave’ it states ashes interred Newcastle Memorial Park (Beresfield) the information is from the register showing age 76 yrs and died northern nsw.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/193584915/dorothy-macpherson
Now awaiting a photo. If can get a DOB then may be able to work backwards on the likelihood of the multiple marriage scenario.
More to follow ….
Re Dorothy Jean HIGHAM is NOT a match. née Green m George Higham 1945/1245. SMH Death Notice 8.7.1998
Update: Re DJ Macpherson possibility
A Henry Macpherson ashes nearby DJ Macpherson at Newcastle. Also late of Bar Beach. Awaiting photo.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/193584916/henry-macpherson
Found a marriage NSW BDM 8469/1944 at Burwood of Henry Ross Macpherson to Dorothy Jean Woollams so can likely discount this one too.
John Sanders
Perhaps what you had in common with the old granddad was the year you were born – 1873. Don’t know South London at all well having been there only a handful of times in my life. When I was doing a bit of research I found out that the small terraced house where Grandpa was born (now worth a cool £2 million – although I presume my ancestors were only renting a room or two there) was ten minutes walk from the Peabody estate in Southwark (built in 1871, on the former site of The Magdalen Hospital for the Reception of Penitent Prostitutes) where the first victim of Jack the Ripper, Mary Ann (Polly) Nichols, lived at one time. As the Ripper murders happened in 1888 he would have been fourteen/fifteen at the time. Perhaps a bit young to be hanging around the dark and dismal streets of Whitechapel in the early hours of the morning but you never know.
I haven’t a clue about the music – probably just some Pathe “library” music they dug out for the lighter stories.
Clive J. Turner
How did they used to celebrate Saint Valentine’s Day in Adelaide?
Use to, not used to, in my above comment. How mortifying!
Clive: not sure about Adelaide but if anything like once sister city, a good old home spun Saint Valentine’s Day massacree might have been acceptable. Stuff all that lovie dovie waste of kisses, cuddles and choccies
Update re Dorothy Jean McPherson and to confirm she is incorrect person and not DJR
Date of Birth from photo of memorial plaque confirms born 28 Oct 1920.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/193584915/dorothy-macpherson
Here’s a Mrs J. Campbell at 69 Murphy St, Elsternwick from December 1950 winning a guinea for writing a limerick. Not sure if the name Campbell features anywhere in the Doff saga, or if Dorothy and long gone to Bute by then.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23029210?searchTerm=elsternwick%2069%20murphy%20st
Could Dorothy have been related to J.A. Robertson running this store in Kadina, about (28.89 km – 17.95 miles) from Bute? They had a daughter named Pat if anyone can access the family trees. There’s plenty of articles about them – sold the business in 1953 after 46 years it seems.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110149158?searchTerm=kadina%20j.a.%20robertson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110173941?searchTerm=store%20J.A.%20Robertson
@Mary,
According to Angela on FamilySearch:
1949
Elsternwick, Victoria, Australia
69 Murphy Street. Dorothy Jean Webb. Occupation: Chiropodist. [Entry crossed out on record; Notation: O 23.3.50]. Also living at this address in 1949 (and 1954): John Campbell (d. 1983), Jessie Campbell (née Wiseman, d. 1983), and Alexander Campbell (d. 1968, m. Enid Wall in 1950).
So, Mrs. J. Campbell (Gertrude) and Fred (from your link above https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23029210?searchTerm=elsternwick%2069%20murphy%20st) must have moved in after 1949? Or is Jessie a nickname for Gertrude?!
@ Pat – good find! Gertrude is simply Jessie’s nom de plume for a comic letter competition.
@Jo, thanks for clarifying that!
Has anyone found where Dorothy went to school? If she became a pharmacist she’d have to have been an academic, she’d have to have got her leaving certificate, one would think, for starters at least. Gotta find Dorothy …..
PS: In keeping with the Somerton clan I’ve decided to go by my middle name, take note, thus to wit, gobbledegook, from this day forth I shall be known as Poppins.
@Pat, thanks for the Campbell info, h’mm, a family of Campbells, will look into it, interesting.
Jo,
Did they send contestants postal orders when they won? It would be made out to Gertrude?
Her letter shows an obsession with a man she was going to make suffer for his wrong-doing. I wonder where Carl was drinking if he was going to bed at 7pm?
@ David – Jessie Campbell’s name is given in the winning entry description – so no need to chase Gertie…
Looking for Dorothy Jean:
For anyone in or around Canberra:
At the National Library of Australia (currently unavailable due to building works):
Chiropodists Association of Victoria
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2941218
7th; 10th; 14th-15th; 17th; 20th-22nd; 24th (1935/36; 1939/40; 1943/44-1944/45; 1946/47; 1949/50-1951/52; 1953/54)
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/329613
Sydney : Australasian Guild of Chiropodists
Vol. 1, no. 1 (Jan. 1947)-
The Australian Guild of Chiropodists journal is also available at the State Library of Australia (they don’t appear to have a copy of the Chiropodists Association of Victoria journal).
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1095676
Check this out! Chiropodists were in demand by the RAAF
@ David Morgan
If you were looking for Gertrude in Elsternwick, Elsternwick is not far from the beach… Whilst most contemporary Australians (especially school children) would know how and where to find Gert by sea, I don’t know that this would be the case in 1948 as people were still busy serenading the King…Advance Australia Fair!
Could Webb have been playing tennis and table tennis with Heegerbetween 1937 to 1940?
They seemed to be a winning combination.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66422806?searchTerm=%22c%20heeger%22&fbclid=IwAR25qt-xDEkMHuRwo3qBHcP_IjO1B2ED3KKWDEy-4yykLmUUDP9cxJa-wVE
@David Morgan Have you not heard of the 6 o’clock swill. Didn’t governments change the law second half 20th century in Australian on the last hour you can drink at pubs.
curio,
No I had assumed it was the same as the UK in terms of all laws in 1948. I hadn’t realised the £ stuck until 1966.
It was interesting when Carl was selling from Bromby Street he wanted them to call between 5-6. Did employment hours end at 5pm so people (mostly men) could go straight to the bar not home?
@David Morgan, alas, it’s not Carl with the table tennis paddle there, that’s a bloke named Cec Webb – and oddly enough Heeger is also named Cec …. what are the odds, hey, two blokes name Cec! It’s also over 800 ks from Springvale to Liverpool in NSW so a bit of a hike. Hey, have you looked into ice skating/ice hockey, maybe he was into that, it was super popular here back in the day, that would give strong calf muscles, per chance? John Russell Keane was well known in the ice hockey and skating community. Table tennis is a good idea though, will keep looking …..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66422806?searchTerm=cec%20webb%20tennis
Hi all,
I have good news regarding Dorothy Jean Webb’s divorce files, all thanks to the kind offices of the Honorable Chief Justice Anne Ferguson of Victoria.
I received today two pdf files of all the divorce documents, and am providing links to them below for public access.
Nick Pelling, for the record and as a gesture of appreciation while offering the background to this disclosure in this same reply box for those CM readers/visitors who may not have read how this came about, I will copy again below the letter I had sent, preceding which I also copy the reply I received and the reply I made, again for the record. I believe this is important to give due credit and thanks to those kindly helping with the public disclosure of the files in the interest of factual and truthful research on the Somerton Man case.
I think the files received will prove to be very important in shedding significant research light on what sadly transpired, and on many other aspects of the case, clarifying many things we had wondered about, saving you all more time to focus on other aspects of this still puzzling case.
Dorothy Webb Affidavit: https://www.okcir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Dorothy-Webb-Affidavit.pdf
Webb v Webb divorce file: https://www.okcir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Webb-v-Webb-divorce-file_.pdf
I will share some thoughts later on what I quickly read. For now, I just want to get this out to you and the public asap.
Behrooz
————
On Oct 11, 2022, at 9:23 PM, Supreme Court-Divorce Enquiries wrote:
Dear Mr Tamdgidi,
I refer to your email below which was forwarded to the Divorce Enquiries area of the Supreme Court Principal Registry.
As requested, please find attached the divorce file between Dorothy Jean WEBB v Carl WEBB.
Kind regards,
______________________________________
Sharokine Haddad
A/Deputy Registrar – Principal Registry, Deputy Prothonotary
Supreme Court of Victoria
Telephone: +61 (03) 8600 2048
Email: [email protected]
Web: http://www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au
The Supreme Court of Victoria acknowledges Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples and Traditional Owners and Custodians of the land and waterways upon which our lives depend. We acknowledge and pay our respects to ancestors of this country, Elders, knowledge holders and leaders – past and present. We extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
————
Sharokine Haddad,
A/Deputy Registrar –
Principal Registry, Deputy Prothonotary
Dear Sharokine Haddad,
I am immensely grateful for your reply and for accommodating this release to the public of the divorce files. Please convey to the Honorable Chief Justice Ferguson, and Viv Mahy my appreciation of their attention to this matter and public request in the interest of truth, fairness, and justice regarding the Somerton Man case.
In the course of this research I have come to know the exemplary extent in which Australia is serious and accommodating about sharing its historical archives in the interest of public learning and scientific research.
Given the reasoning I had shared in my request letter, I am understanding your reply as implying that I can responsibly share the two files with other researches publicly by providing a link to the files stored on my research center website. It is best that the documents themselves be shared rather than my quoting from them, to avoid any further misunderstanding and misquoting.
If I am not correct in the above understanding, please let me know. Otherwise, I will assume it will be ok to share them responsibly with others.
Best regards,
Mohammad H. (Behrooz) Tamdgidi, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Sociology (ret.)
UMass Boston
Editor, Human Architecture
Research Director at OKCIR:
Omar Khayyam Center
for Integrative Research in Utopia,
Mysticism, and Science (Utopystics)
http://www.okcir.com • [email protected]
[email protected]
–––––––––––––––––––––––
October 2, 2022
Supreme Court of Victoria
(By way of Viv Mahy, Executive Associate to
The Hon. Chief Justice Ferguson
[email protected])
The Honorable Chief Justice Ferguson,
My name is Mohammad H. Tamdgidi, Ph.D. I am a sociologist residing in the United States, having been previously an associate professor of sociology at the University of Massachusetts Boston, and being presently an independent scholar, author, and director of OKCIR: Omar Khayyam Center for Integrative Research (https://www.okcir.com).
I have recently been conducting research on the Somerton Man case in Australia, having authored “Tamám Shud: How the Somerton Man’s Last Dance for a Lasting Life Was Decoded — Omar Khayyam Center Research Report” (Okcir Press, 2021, see https://www.okcir.com/product/tamam-shud-how-the-somerton-mans-last-dance-for-a-lasting-life-was-decoded-omar-khayyam-center-research-report/ an updated blog report recently, titled: “Doubting the New Somerton Man Findings: Do 0.01% Error Chances Actually Matter in Science?” (see https://www.okcir.com/doubting-the-new-somerton-man-findings-do-0-01-error-chances-actually-matter-in-science/).
I am writing this letter to request from you, by way of this letter and further explanations to follow, to kindly consider authorizing the release for research purposes—in the interest of fairness to all divorce parties, their descendants, researchers, and an international interested public at large—all the filing papers and documents related to the application filed in 1951 (granted in 1952) by Mrs. Dorothy Jean (Robertson) Webb to divorce her husband Carl (Charles or Charlie) Webb in Melbourne, Victoria, on the grounds, in her view at the time of filing, of his desertion.
As you are aware in light of recent findings about the Somerton Man case, the Somerton Man has been reported by an unofficial team of researchers to have been Carl Webb. South Australian officials are still in the process of investigating the case and the newly reported findings. Therefore, if the recent findings are confirmed to be true, at the time Mrs. Webb filed her application, apparently unbeknownst to her, her husband Carl Webb had passed away on Dec. 1, 1948.
The state of affairs that has arisen as a result of selective disclosure recently of Dorothy Webb’s divorce file in a limited fashion to some and not all has become increasingly unfair not only to the divorce parties and their descendants, but also to the majority of researchers and public at large who have no access to the actual documents and texts.
It appears from the public comments of the unofficial team members that they, or those in contact with them, including perhaps some in the media, have had access to the documents. It is not known what has prevented them from disclosing the entire documents and texts, and this may be a result of restrictions placed on making the file contents directly available to the public. But this has also apparently not prevented them to disclose some material selectively, resulting unfortunately in often second-hand and impromptu comments by pundits giving interviews on public air, disclosing some but perhaps not all aspects of Mrs. Dorothy Jean Webb’s divorce application texts. At times, the quotations from her text have been in fact inconsistent and contradictory with one another, and it is not clear what have been disclosed have been accurately reported or not. We do not even know if there are other pieces of information in the texts that have, for one reason or another, not been disclosed, resulting in biased evaluation and assessment of her reasons and motives for divorce, or of her portrayal of Carl Webb’s life and character during a difficult period of his life when he had lost many relatives to old age or war, suffering from illness, leading perhaps to his suicide in Nov. 1948. Wild speculations have circulated around as a result of partial and limited disclosure of her file contents, such that the judgments passed can no longer be reversed or clarified without full disclosure of all her application contents.
The limited disclosure of Mrs. Webb’s divorce file to some, but not to all the interested, has led to the situation where judgments are being made of her and her husband’s private lives without any way for independent researchers to verify for themselves in a reliable and accurate way what transpired. Mr. Carl Webb, if confirmed to be the Somerton Man, was not even alive to defend himself and to respond to her characterizations of his character and conduct. Conversely, also others not having full access to her texts have characterized her intentions as biased and unfair, or even criminally motivated, resulting in the further deepening of the puzzles surrounding this seventy-four-year mystery. Unfortunately, at a time when new findings about the identity of the Somerton Man are supposed to help resolve the case, a procedurally selective and limited disclosure about her divorce filing has resulted in unnecessary creation of new puzzles and misunderstandings about the case.
Although the divorce filing by Mrs. Webb falls in a period that requires specific application to your offices for disclosure, researchers and interested public not residing in Australia do not have the possibility of effectively filing the forms required. Besides, even its disclosure to other persons such as myself selectively—while restrictions remain in place on the disclosure of the file contents—will not help clarify and correct any misreporting already done, since it will place restrictions on even what I can disclose to others regarding one or another aspect of the case. In fact, unfortunately, such disclosure restrictions, if they have been placed on others previously, have not apparently prevented their selective leaking to the public, at the cost of distorting what Mrs. Webb had to say about her own or her husband’s lives and conduct during their troubled marriage commencing in 1941.
Therefore, I respectfully ask your honorable offices to consider this request for public disclosure of all the divorce filings of Mrs. Dorothy Jean Webb, so that all can independently access them on whichever archival site your offices choose or is customary for the purpose. If doing this, as a one-time action, requires someone to pay for fees, I would be glad to pay any reasonable fees to do so, as directed. Having seen the forms, I am afraid I do not reside in Australia to file the Affidavit required, and the questions asked for the purpose are not, in my view, directly relevant for this case, given the request I am making is for a public disclosure of the documents and file contents.
Specifically, I am requesting your consideration for public disclosure of all the divorce records filed by Mrs. Dorothy Jean Webb in 1951 and its conclusion in 1952 with the granting of divorce. The case file has reportedly included a text 7-8 pages long, about which recently some information has become public selectively and second-handedly without the possibility of independent verification. But there may be more text unknown to independent researchers. The individuals involved are Carl (Charles or Charlie) Webb (birth C. Registration number 3146 / 1906) born in Nov. 1905, and Dorothy Jean Robertson (birth C. Registration number 17944 / 1920). They were married in Oct. 1941 Registration number 16701. The divorce was officially granted in 1952 (Dorothy Jean Webb, nee Robertson, instituted divorce proceedings in 1951 on the grounds of her husband Carl Webb’s desertion). The newspaper ad accompanying her divorce filing was as follows:
From The Age 5 October 1951: “To CARL WEBB, formerly of Bromby-street, South Yarra, but now of parts unknown. —Take notice that your wife, DOROTHY JEAN WEBB has instituted DIVORCE proceedings against you on the ground of desertion, and that unless you enter an appearance in the Prothonotary’s Office of the Supreme Court at Melbourne on or before the 29th day of October, 1951, the case may proceed in your absence, and you may be ordered to pay costs.” (Advertising (1951, October 5). The Age (Melbourne, Vic.: 1854 – 1954), p. 15. Retrieved July 27, 2022, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205334969)
The Honorable Chief Justice Ferguson,
Given the limited information available, public access to the actual records is important for proper and truthful research and understanding of what transpired in this long unsolved case in Australia, and in the interest of fairness to both parties of the divorce Dorothy Jean Webb and Carl Webb, all their descendants (dead or living), and independent researchers.
I greatly appreciate your time in reading this letter and in your consideration of this request.
Sincerely,
Mohammad H. (Behrooz) Tamdgidi, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Sociology (ret.)
UMass Boston
Editor, Human Architecture
Research Director at OKCIR:
Omar Khayyam Center
for Integrative Research in Utopia,
Mysticism, and Science (Utopystics)
http://www.okcir.com • [email protected]
Behrooz: that is exceptionally good news, thank you so much for your efforts and persistence!
I’ll put up a fresh post here shortly so that we can all use that as a place to discuss this properly.
Once again, thank you very much indeed!
Thank you Behrooz, magnificent effort; you’re an absolute legend!
“The lady doth protest too much, me thinks” in much the same manner as the scheme playec out in the Hamlet’s character’s attempted cover-up of a suspicious death in the rotten state of Denmark. Seems Dorothy and Carl dropped out of any social connects they may have had including Carl’s kinfolk for a specific purpose, Doff moving to Bute S.A. according to her plaint affidavit of 1951. By which time mean old wife bashing Carl, in keeping with his own alleged death wish, had been mouldering his shared grave at West Terrace ‘in and for the said state’ unbeknown to his cash strapped spouse….Great springboard for new punters to get started on without need for job searching Carl no attempts made to outhink his motives for selling off the farm and a host of other well meaning though futile leads…Think I’ll bide awhile on why’s & wherefores, at least until our host holds true to his word and writes up a thread based on meaningful input courtesy of ‘Somerton Man Last Dance’ author Behrooz.
@ Behrooz
Congratulations on your work. I think you presented a compelling case for disclosure and your letter of thanks is also very well conveyed. I didn’t think this would happen but it did and now some of the endless speculation can be put to rest. Great work!
It is a very sad story. As I hope Nick will report, Kevin D’Arcy’s family have no knowledge of Dorothy. Wherever she went I hope she found some measure of happiness.
OH WOW! Thanks Behrooz! Still digesting it… bloody hell!
Thanks Behrooz!
It has been quite frustrating trying to interpret information through other parties and these documents settle a lot of uncertainties and questions.
@ Nick Pelling, (Mary) Poppins, John Sanders, Jo, Pat and all. You are all welcome. I think none of this would have come about without all your and others’ enthusiasm and selfless search for understanding @ CM, given Nick’s openness and welcoming approach to respect and engage diverse viewpoints to solve long-held mysteries.
Since Nick Pelling has already opened a new thread on Dorothy Jean Webb’s divorce files, I will just follow up there with comments. I am still digesting these two files (head still spinning), and both files are equally important I must add, and am amazed at the gracious way the Honorable Chief Justice Anne Ferguson helped the cause of serious public research on this matter.
@ John Sanders, I empathize with the basic point of your initial feedback, that is, let us not go into a rush in judging things at their face value, either way (especially against Carl, but also Dorothy Jean as well), since this is just one side of the very saddening story being told. What was my most important reason for seeking these was actually about ascertaining what was NOT said in her story, and in hermeneutics (textual analysis of texts to understand the true meaning and purpose of what the author has written), it is as much important to know what is written as what is not. There is (and is not) so much in the two files that I am not sure where to begin and am sure you will also realize. More on these in the thread Nick has set up.
My initial observation is Flat 2 Mrs Davies had no real memory of the couple. They don’t seem to have been very social with her or noisy. It is surprising Dorothy said she stayed with her overnight. Mrs Davies (Flat 2) didn’t remember the violent episodes by 1951.
Also, Dorothy’s family had little or nothing to do with her apart from her dad sitting in a car outside their home. Her nephews never saw her. She didn’t attend her own sister’s wedding (as far as we can tell from newspaper evidence). Her friends she claimed dumped her because of Carl. It is strange her family or friends didn’t offer for her to stay with them if they saw Carl’s violent behaviour. Presumably, her sick cat died while she was away on her 2 week holiday in Lorne. Also if Carl had no friends who was he playing cards with before 7pm after leaving work at 5pm? We only know he played cards with her friends and seemed to lose and get angry about it.
She also said they lived in Bromby St. for around 4 years which would take them back to September 1942. Leaving a gap from October 1941 to September 1942. She didn’t remember living in Domain Road presumably for nearly 12 months.
Was Carl not required to enlist because of poor mental health? Did Carl meet Dorothy in an institution?
From her marriage in 1941 to around March 1943 she said she worked for 6 months in total out of 18 months as a pharmacist/chiropodist. She said she was sick after looking after Carl’s mother for 2 weeks in 1941. Carl resented Dorothy’s medical bills. Though Carl’s mother died in 1946, not 1941. Dorothy went to the cinema without Carl and he went to bed at 7pm. She took a 2-week holiday in Lorne presumably with her friends and not with Carl. She was acting as if she was a single woman before 1946.
The landlord didn’t remember Carl removing the locks from the doors though remembered the furniture was taken.
After a violent episode, she also said she couldn’t get into the [Royce] hotel just a few metres from their home and walked around before returning home in the early hours. She didn’t think to get a taxi to her friends, parents or sister.
My impression is Dorothy was alienated from Carl, her friends and her family. She had inconsistent employment due to illness.
Where was she living in Bute but then had the funds to pay for her divorce documentation and to travel to a notary in Kadina, pay for a solicitor to advertise and for searches to be made before the divorce was issued?
She had come into some money after Carl’s death or a parent before 1951?
The Court of Petty sessions awarded her £1 and 10 shillings/week from Carl’s wages but she only received a few payments. Surely the court could have set up a payment directly from his employer? Why did she not pursue it if she needed the money?
It would be interesting to determine why the court assumed she could rent a property and buy food with just £1 and 10 shillings whereas Carl could keep the remainder – perhaps over £10/week.
@ Mary may have been onto things some time ago with Robertson links to Kadina.
Mary,
The family tree for your Kadina family can be accessed on ancestry. It does not clarify whether or not they are related to Dorothy. For the record, I will post the link for those that can access ancestry and Nick can choose what he wants to do with it of course.
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/3569963/family?cfpid=412079958282
I have based my research to find this tree on the following article found on trove:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74217836?searchTerm=%22James%20A%20Robertson%22%20Kadina
I’m tending to agree with other posters at this point…Perhaps the genealogy will not help us to solve the circumstances. (Apart from possible genetic pre-dispositions…)
I have seen quite a few divorce notices and applications on ancestry now. They were drawn out and for women, in particular, there was a requirement to show that they had made every effort to keep the marriage going. (Note that despite her marriage break-down Dorothy’s affidavit makes every effort to claim that she did not leave.). Particularly, if one was not “connected”, abandonment, desertion and prolonged and repeated abuse facilitated the process. Many of the records I have seen have those specific patterns in the affidavits. I’m not trying to downplay Dorothy’s assertions but most certainly, her lawyers would assist her in playing up that side of the marriage in order for her to get a decree nisi. Especially if Carl was nowhere to be found.
@ misca
Thanks, your posts are very relevant! I’ve wondered what was the cause for ‘I nevertheless remained’, which you have explained perfectly.
I’ve had Dorothy’s birth certificate for some time now, but I haven’t noticed that it states Alice Stratford’s birthplace was Fitzoy, a far cry from St. Arnaud and Avon Plains, where all her supposed siblings were born. I suppose we don’t have a birth certificate for Alice?
Behrooz: at 8.54 pm 19th August on this thread link (above), you posted to Pat with the details of Dorothy Jean Webb nee Stratford’s Vic. birth registration for 1920 which listed her parents, namely Alice and Jnho along with the Vic. Reg. No. and a related on line search engine link in support thereof..Do you deny the post; if so then you have been framed by a devious con artist and that will not bade well with Nick Palling (above post name referal [sic] or other fair dinkum researchers.
With all due respect it’s the likes of Pat, Misca and your good self seem to be creating all the confusion now, along with tassive support from Peter Davidson. who is not deserving. With regards to your mention of John Bennett’s son Bruce and his Wiki Tree family information, yes quite true, I was the original source of concern. Had you noticed my interpretation of that you may have picked up on a Tony Bennett (Anthony) who is also into familial lineage. But, with this latest questioning of my research, I’ll hold off for now lest I become embroiled further. .
We can only wonder who was giving young Alice Statford her driving lessons among the trees; the dialogue suggests her father, mine host of St. Auburns hotel but not possible because he was dead before automobiles arrived in the Antipodes wasn’t he?. Possibly Troop Sgt. john Robertson upon his return from the ‘big one’ for his discharge in April 1919. Though did he know how, farm boy and horseman when he rode off to war in 1916 but, if competent to drive that could only have been in the malley scrub up around Mildura where they met and married. Would have to have been soon after cause by December Alice was in the family way with Dorothy right. Crikies almost forgot young brother Ted the Richmond born former railway dispatch clerk, nah he didn’t make it home til later in the year and besides he was an invalid by then. Could women actually get a driver’s licence in those days guess it was on but, can’t recall any of my old aunts being game for it.
Apologies if I’m going to bore anyone here to death, especially John S.
If anyone has come across the article from The Advertiser Wed 8th Sep 1954 p16 “Mt Gambier Leads In Hockey” (women’s hockey at that)…
The best player for Bute was D.Robertson.
Bute astonishingly 3 d Port Pirie 2. Before anyone gets excited (or has been excited by this find in the past), it looks as though Bute would’ve been struggling for numbers and they would’ve used reserve Port Pirie players, including D.Robertson and V.Rodda.
While I don’t know of the D.Robertson in question from other searches I find D.Robertson playing hockey in Port Pirie for Gordon predating any divorce proceedings of this group’s POI. Interestingly enough I recognise many of the other Port Pirie names, especially Evelyn Tavener (mentioned in other results from the article). She was a family friend and also ‘was’ hockey and softball in Port Pirie having founded both. Again, sorry to bore.
If you want confirmation of this D.Robertson I can immediately think of two people that can most certainly help in that quest. It is also possible that Port Pirie Hockey Association have kept all the records from day dot…Tavvy was meticulous. And if they do, they would likely have country carnival records too, just in case it legitimately was a D.Robertson from Bute smacking balls around. I can recall Maitland playing in the country carnival as late as 1978 (I don’t follow hockey, but my Aunty came up to play that year), so you’d imagine Bute would’ve too over the years.
Lurch: boring, who moi? I’m a sports fan too man, especially women’s ball games like field hockey. Most of the top gals start out very young and stick with the game til long after those involved in other team sports have given it away. Your D. (For?) Robertson of Bute, still playing grade hockey competitively at 34 in 1954 is a credit to her conditioning and verve.
@ Lurch – great pick up! Do you know anyone at Port Pirie who could check the historical register of employees for BHAS? I’ve got a hunch there could be a fleeting glimpse of Charlie too around 1947-48… I think the Port Pirie Family History Group has access… I don’t think Charlie’s tan was from Melbourne! There’s a Spencer Gulf feel to some of this story!
It’s interesting that your family friend Tavvy founded softball at Port Pirie. I live not too far from Charlie’s work place and Bromby Street address. WWII American servicemen introduced softball to Melbourne in the early 1940s, at nearby Fawkner Park (South Yarra), where it is still played. An ex-serviceman from Los Angeles (William B De Verne) had a beautiful shelter built there in 1980, as a thank you gesture. There’s a plaque telling the story…
Ok, I’ve found a few things regarding the hockey playing D.Robertson for Bute.
I’m finding that D.Robertson is Dorothy Robertson of Port Pirie. She was school age at the time appearing as a key player for High School Blue from 1950-1954, with the exception of a some games playing for St Andrew’s Stuart or St Andrew’s Gordon (in the A’s), and was an association B&F winner in the B’s for one of the seasons. Being a keen up and coming hockey player, it is completely plausible that she was out to impress against her own association, demolishing Pirie in the process.
There was also a Dorothy Jasper in Port Pirie who got married to a Robertson in 1950.
So these Dorothies (for want of a better plural) from Port Pirie are dead ends. That’s a poor term, one or both are probably still alive, although Dorothy Robertson née Jasper was not in Port Pirie’s electoral roll in 1988…we had an awesome Port Pirie book by Ken Bullock that every Port Pirie household bought in 1988. Tonnes of cool photos from back in the day.
Anyone think to follow-up on my lead that a Sister Webb was charge nurse at Kadina hospital or that a Dr. Webb was at Alice Springs, both circa. 1948. Bit late now perhaps.
Interesting to see Phyllis’s husband James Claude Crick lists his occupation as “Foot mechanic” on the ANA, p.22 …. that’s a bit interesting, hey – another coincidence, per chance?
https://imgur.com/yPKH65K
@Poppins
Very interesting, but what exactly was a “Foot mechanic”?
His photo is available! Sorry if this is old news…
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=203840472
Ah okay, he worked in Foot Aids Mechanic (supports) at Harley Surgical Aplliance Co. (234 Swanston St, Melbourne).
@Pat,
It suggests artificial limbs for war veterans.
This is a nearly match
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/98051550?searchTerm=%22foot%20mechanic%22
@Pat,
It suggests artificial limbs for war veterans.
This is a nearly match
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/98051550?searchTerm=%22foot%20mechanic%22
They also tendered for RALAC contracts
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245723594?searchTerm=RALAC
@Pat and @David – Speculation …. as a young lad JC Crick may have been making arch supports or similar – p.37 of his ANA file, “foot aids mechanic (supports) ” ….. h’mm, not sure if this Dr Harley is connected with the same business, ads appear in a few States.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/270430994?searchTerm=foot%20arch%20dr%20harley
Poppins #
I think you’ll find details and addresses for Dr. Harley’s surgical tools and podietry devices, agents and management etc., courtesy Peter Bowes esq., posted some time ago. I might also have noted likely the Co’s employment of our Somerton Man imposter Carl Webb and it’s connections to Dorothy thereby…not sure that all of this by now superfluous information is still on the Tbt “in crowd” notice board but,
you’re certainly welcome to take what you need from it.
There are 3 mentions of a Dorothy Robertson student at Mildura Central from 1927, 1932 and 1934 and in 1939 a Dorothy Robertson of Melbourne is the guest of Mrs. F. Hall of Orange Avenue.
Maybe Dorothy was under the care of her grandma Louisa Reither or a member of the Robertson family? That could explain the lack of school grades for her in Melbourne?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/263662446?searchTerm=%22Dorothy%20Robertson%22%20%22Mildura%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265653629?searchTerm=%22Dorothy%20Robertson%22%20%22Mildura%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/265833828?searchTerm=%22Dorothy%20Robertson%22%20%22Mildura%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/268408381?searchTerm=%22Dorothy%20Robertson%22%20%22Mildura%22
Mrs. F. Hall was married to a Robertson of this family. Any connections?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88054272?searchTerm=%22Mildura%22%20%22Robertson%20%22
Pat,
One thought is she could have used Dorothy Comber not wanting to be a Robertson, a poetry writer:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206453206?searchTerm=%22dorothy%20comber%22
Here in cat contest with a Stratford
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47472315/4973542
David Morgan,
Try Dorothy Helen Maud Comber nee Stratford of Frankston . A more thorough and fastidious researcher (eg., Pat) would surely have done some further cross referencing of the name instead of jumping to a self serving conclusion. Sorry to have caught you out on this one mate, Peter Bowes will be rather pleased and rightly so.
Nice try Pat but, your first 1927 mishit with Dorothy (ida) Robertson brings to an end a dismal year long epic saga trying all off beat means in tracking down Doff Doff ‘get em off ‘ Robertson. In overlooking her older sister in the 1927 Mildura Central School item, that set in motion three more missing links that followed; Whatsmore poor Trixie Mary Robertson died in 1930 aged ten whilst Dorothy who never married, lived to be 95. Bad week for Brazil generally what?
@JS,
It was just a thought (as I said) of name choice Comber. I gave Dorothy Comber as an example because cats and poetry were a theme for Dorothy Webb and DC fitted the bill.
I think Pat’s agenda is finding the truth about Dorothy. We all need latitude to make mistakes and find truths.
This was ‘just an exercise’ in researching head height v actual height. Unfortunately, we don’t have a Carl profile with a measured scale.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lhorVs_2XH95PxjDsYIVrml4jayUAv7t/view?usp=sharing
Using the Pearson regression equation (I think) It shows Roy was between 5’7 ” and 5′ 10″. i think Pearson used Galton’s research on prisoners.
@David Morgan,
I think Pat’s agenda might be more productive and relevant to the case if she were to change direction away from the Webb saga and consentrate on finding the truth behind Somerton Man, which seems somehow to have lost all its direction over a twelve month period of missed opportunities…in my humble opinion as usual.
@JS
I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you say, perhaps something wrong is going on in Oz as well?
Who is the Dorothy Robertson of Melbourne, visiting Mrs Hall in 1939?
My height ocsilates between 5’9 and 5 ’11 depending in who is measuring, the shoes i am wearing, etc etc. To be fair 2/3 inches isn’t a significant amout especially when there are so many variables.
@Pat
Can’t find F… All on your given F. Hall, though I see an E. Hall which you have tried to connect to yet another non descript Dorothy Robertson but who I can prove is not related at all to Doff (Webb) by virtue of different familial origins. I take it that be the basis for your “I don’t understand what you say” and I appreciate that you may have language difficulties. Should you wish, I am quite effluent in Portugues Brasileiro if that be preferable for future comunicacoes.
Thanks Sanders …. I had a look over at Tbt and saw no sign of Harley or the Crick’s … h’mm, ’tis gone, carried away in a Dellschau airship perhaps, along with Steve’s comment, who knows, but nonetheless, interesting theory re Charles employment.
They could all be connected to workplaces in Swanston Street, hey, pharmacy, Harley and Carl’s workplace, 1940 …..
“Somerton man imposter, Carl Webb”?
Poppins,
Tbt of July 26 @ An Investigation Bound to Fail (19) had my follow up to Shabby and is in place. The initial post provided an additional Sydney NSW (Redfern) address indicating Dr. Harley Co. had offices nation wide and that it was of English origin. If so Carl Webb may have worked interstate or even overseas which could explain his non appearance for periods in the twenties and thirties then from ’47 onwards.
Ah, thanks for that Sanders, “An investigation Bound to Fail”, super interesting, err, and good on ya Peebs, ’twas thrilling to read a page out of Gerry Feltus’s elusive book. H’mm, yes, Dorothy’s divorce document says Carl was an “electrical engineer, instrument maker” ….. you could be spot on there, “surgical instrument maker” per chance …. gotta find more about Dr Harley. I remember seeing something about Roy going to holiday in Sydney at some point, maybe Carl was there then and he was gonna stay with him, who knows, need to do some research on Doc Harley.
Poppins,
Don’t be surprised if the name Dr. Harley was a take off on Harley Street London, rbest known for it’s to shelf private specialist medical practices and more than a few a few cure all quacks to boot. A fake Dr. Harley who ‘practiced’ in Melbourne thirties era ran a rip off photo enlargement/colour portrait business called Empire Art and alon with his brothers was into Aust. & NZ wide standover debt recoveries. If I’m not mistaken the name Harley is still associates with podiatry equipment so luck with your related research, I’ve only rejoined the case in an advisory capacity.
@ JS
Thanks but I have to decline your offer. Cheers.
Proof that Harley Surgical in Melbourne is connected with Dr Harley.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190138954?searchTerm=tommy%20dr%20harley
Dr Harley’s ‘health shoes’ lined with asbestos, wheeeeeeee – hey, could asbestos cause an enlarged spleen? Sanders, could you advise in your tutor/ mentor capacity at some point? Good on ya.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/249530439?searchTerm=asbestos%20dr%20harley
Seems Somerton Man may have been for some time a walking advertisement for Dr. Harley’s asbestos lined arch support “health” shoes. We don’t have to look to far in that case to figure that he could have succumbed to the ongoing effects of self inflicted wounds. Perhaps someone with a copy of Gray’s Anatomy could compare asbestosis symtomology with what Doc. Dwyer described post PM.
Poppins,
You will have noted from James Crick’s RAAF file that the two Dr. Harley reference letters of different dates, called him Cruik both times even though he’d been in the job for two and a half years. As for signee company director T. O. Jones, only one I tagged was Thomas O’Neill Jones bn.1891 of Woloomin NSW, who failed in his bid to inlist due to crook chompers but I don’t think it’s him.
Asbestosis is an aquired lung disease and does not fit the symptomology described as the cause of death in the SM case
I can imagine you knowing your way around aquired lung diseases Ana. Got some creds. to go with your nice name? just for reference sake of course. Sounds right to me though.
Did Dorothy’s dad go to jail for 2 months in 1922 for sending letters with obscene images and words to a woman that he had previously lived with for 10 years?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205032475?searchTerm=%22john%20c.%20robertson%22
They blamed it on a form of PTSD from WW1.
Certainly seems like J. C. Robertson, there being no others similar from WW1 and the age is right. You’ll be aware of course that he was married at time, Dorothy being two years old in 1922 so something doesn’t add up. I also brought up John Comber’s having contracted Syphilis on leave in Cairo during his service and was still receiving treatment on discharge in Melbourne at the time, from memory.
When John Comber Robertson made his application to buy land with a value of £1,989 he gave his address as c/o J Charles, Thornville:
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/FE505AFA-F911-11E9-AE98-036C56F2E101?image=2
In 1933, J. Charles, Thornville lost both his sons who drowned.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205503913?searchTerm=%22charles%22%2C%20thornville
Was Mrs J. Charles the woman he pestered by sending letters with rude pictures and words? He had lived with some married woman for 10 years and it seems logical it was the Charles family and that he had lived with them from his teens to his 20s. I can’t find the record of his imprisonment.
You have to wonder whether JC Robertson was adopted by the Charles family and afterwards they had their own children or they adopted two more who died by drowning.
My guess is before WW1, JC Robertson was living with the Charles family in Thornville for 10 years. Possibly adopted. As he grew to an older teen he was in some relationship with Mrs Charles which when he returned from WW1 she had ended – you could imagine fervent letter writing to a soldier. I suspect this became vindictive because he was the spurned lover which ended in him getting 2 months in jail. It also suggests he never got his parcel of land – perhaps the money was going to come from his adopting Charles family.
I suppose there is also a potential that one of the drowned Charles’ boys was his.
The story of JC Robertson and the married woman (potentially Mrs Charles?) is somewhat like the story of the Graduate by Charles Webb. Perhaps the older married woman who ripped up all their love letters had him locked up for 2 months and then made sure he didn’t get his land.
It might explain his reluctance to get involved when his daughter Dorothy was calling the police about Carl and he sat in his car and made his wife deal with it. He may have been reluctant to have involvement with the police.
Was Dorothy Robertson born in 603 Creswick Road, Ballarat the address used for his land application?
David Morgan, completely interesting – had a look for this bloke’s occupation and it seems he was a barman in 1922.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4661246?searchTerm=barman%20John%20Robertson
@ David Morgan
No, Dorothy was born at Nurse Oates Hospital, 520 Doveton St., Ballarat as per birth record..
Someone tagged these for JC Roberston. Some are obvious and others not.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/78110222?searchTerm=%22Comber%20Robertson%22#
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203985670?searchTerm=%22Comber%20Robertson%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11172027?searchTerm=%22Comber%20Robertson%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/212669837?searchTerm=%22Comber%20Robertson%22#
I was just researching:
Ms Mavis June Moten
ROBERTSON, Armadale, Vic.
For service to the superannuation industry and to peace and disarmament.
in 1994.
In the 1960s she was protesting about Vietnam and arrested but also involved with the serial rapist Dr Brian Elkner having telephone conversations with him recorded by the secret service.
You have to wonder whether she was planted into Elkner’s Committee for Democracy. You also have to wonder what made him switch from being a pacifist to a rapist.
David Morgan: what’s the connection between Mavis Moten the commie “peace activist” and Mr. Cruel prime suspect Doc Elkner got to do with Somerton Man?
@JS – I followed your advice!
As you said Jean could become June and she may have created a new identity as a peace activist. Remember Colleen said some sort of commune. Communes were often the place peace activist hippies hung out.
It is interesting (for me!) to explore whether Jean/June was some sort of government agent infiltrating these organisations/criminal gangs to inform on them. Mavis June Robertson was in contact with Elkner when he was chairman of his peace committee and his conversations were being recorded by government agents. They don’t say who recorded them but his conversations with Mavis were recorded – so perhaps she was recording them as an agent. Who knows?
Mavis/June was probably the only person in history to 1994 who had ever had an award for “superannuation industry and to peace and disarmament”. It seems an unusual award. It probably means she was active in a trade union.
It was the aspect of Elkner’s life being subject to scrutiny by secret agents and recording his calls before he went rogue. His friends were also receiving bombs. One was a pen-bomb – like something from James Bond.
It is interesting that the 40+ year old Elkner (in the 90s) was ‘and still is’ the police No 1. suspect for Mr Cruel – a man aged 25 to 30 in the 90s. Quite a mismatch. Also, Elkner seems to have been an opportunist rapist not like Mr Cruel who had carefully planned each activity with replacement clothes and plastic bags etc. Also ‘I suspect’ the ages of Elkner’s victims were young women (student age) not young girls (children) which is why Elkner probably had to tie them up.
I could even imagine Carl was involved in bugging phones in 1948. I could imagine him looking in a green street telephone cabinet to bug the phones of criminals. Perhaps that was what he was doing in Somerton. An Israeli journalist suggested to me the code was a wiring diagram for an exchange.
It is also interesting that they published all Elkner’s details on NAA. Why was that? Why was the source of Elkner’s conviction on NAA old newspaper files not court documents? That is very strange. Trial by media and then by the secret service?
I’d like to see Elkner’s court files to see the profile and ages of his victims to see whether any were children under 14.
@JS,
No link to spying and Mavis June?
The other person in 1994 to receive the identical award to Mavis was in 1952 a government senior research and defence officer. All obviously linked to peace, disarmament and pensions.
I suspect I will find him in the Elkner files.
@JS,
Mavis June Robertson seems to have been a radical free-thinking Marxist socialist – CPA organiser. Campaigned for abortion rights and the rights of migrants. Whether people agree with her she was a highly motivated person who went to Russia and France to study the system. Presumably, she was also an active demonstrator about Vietnam who got arrested.
@Pat,
Do you know if anyone has looked at the will of John Comber Robertson. He would have to included living relatives when he wrote it in 1989 – he could exclude Dorothy if he didn’t like her but usually they list their children and grandchildren and who gets what number of shares and his property/land. Even knowing the names of grandchildren would be useful.
Perhaps you could borrow Nick’s private jet and pop over from Brazil.
It is strange how prov decide when to digitize and not. Perhaps if enough people ciick the link they digitize.
One person I was researching from 2012 was digitized. So it’s not about time.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/4AE866ED-F64D-11E9-AE98-5769CE38F0DE
@David,
If I’m not mistaken, Angela had a look at JC Robertson’s will and only Phyllis is mentioned. It’s not that he didn’t like Dorothy, maybe he gave her share of the inheritance when she married or divorced.
Sure hope for Pat’s sake Nick’s plane is not a Brasilian Embraer Legacy 600 aka Valkyrie like the private jet flown by the ex Wagner bigwigs…second thoughts….
My biggest grouch with NAA is in their reluctance to update entries post 1973. It’s a goldmine of useful information and if they’d jump to 1983, that’s forty years ago it would hardly be intrusive to detail individual comings and goings, now would it?
@Pat,
Typical wording around that time was something like:
THIS IS THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT of me XXXX of Location YYY in the State of Victoria ‘Occupation’.
1. I REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions heretofore made by me.
2. 1 APPOINT ZZZ in the said State (hereinafter called “my trustee”) executor of this my Will and trustee of my estate.
3. SUBJECT to the payment of my just debts funeral and testamentary expenses and the whole of any duties payable as a consequence of my death I GIVE DEVISE AND BEQUEATH the whole of my estate both real and personal whatsoever and wheresoever situate UNTO my trustee UPON TRUST to DIVIDE the same into ‘KKK’ equal parts etc….
They gave the full address of recipients and witnesses. Those would be the interesting details in the JC file.
Who knew him and was a witness could be contacted/traced.
David Morgan: Perhaps Angela was talking about a Codicil to a previous Will where John Robertson nominated Phyllis as an addendum to a previous one.
Pat: Bringing things back into some perspective for your benefit, In Scotland the surname Robertson stands second to Stewart in overall commonaltity; whereas in Great Britain overall, the name Taylor (off thread) stands at number three behind Smith and Jones. Guess you would be aware that down your neck of the Amazon, da Silva would likely take first place from Olivera, Santos and Machado perhaps?
@JS,
It is interesting you say that. I extracted the will text from a situation where the will seems to have been drawn up without professional help because the writer may have felt ‘he knew better’ but after he died his son took the original will in to the solicitor and with a codicil to say I am the new executor. Of course, you can’t ask the dead guy. But cleverly of course the signatures match – so it looks like he signed both in his shaky 90-year-old handwriting.
The solicitor sent off the original will to be checked by the previously stated executors to see whether they had a copy and to validate it – but sent it to the wrong fax number and never corrected her mistake. The will was never validated. They were unable to track down the witnesses who signed it. So this will the guy produced which was never validated and was amended by a codicil was approved by the court and the ‘son’ got the $400k. Whether he was the son was never checked.
But it would be an irony that by pretending to be someone’s son to steal their money you could end up as a murderer. It would be hard to prove you weren’t the son when the court had said you were and gave you $400k.
Familysearch the genealogy site owned by the LDS is moving to having a chat feature so when you want to find something out they are going to make it easy to ask the person who originally set up the person or the sources.
I think I had an early chat yesterday with a guy who seemed like an LDS supervisor. As soon as I had talked with him a name appeared as deceased. True? Who knows.
The behavior of Australians doesn’t help research – Carl becomes Charles, Weber becomes Webb, I am researching a JP who changed from Arthur to John ‘for court records’ his dad from Simon to Symon and potentially his son from middle name Arthur to James that is the area I am researching.
I don’t envy AI trying to work out the chaos of humans in Australia. It makes genealogy and Trove searches almost impossible to track people.
John O’grady, better known to true blue Assie blokes and sheilas as Nino Culotto, wrote a couple of fairly readable novels about such strange behaviour in, ‘They’re a Weird Mob’ in 1957 and ‘Cop This Lot’ in 1960. He also put out his compendium of compendium of ‘Aussie English’ In order to crack into the more lucrative overseas market which understandably didn’t sell well at home or anywhere else. However he did have minor success with later ‘No Kava For Johnny’, ‘Its Your Shout Mate’ and ‘Gone Fishn’.
NSW BDM 13254/1990
Jean Robertson Speers
Died Chatswood
Father’s and mother’s given names are not available
Dorothy’s nephew told Abbott that she was known as Jean by the time she died.
Did we ever resolve the ABC of piano playing by dorothy jean robertson?
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=4009289&isAv=N
Someone in 1946 wanted it desperately
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188434338?searchTerm=%22ABC%20of%20Piano%20Playing%22
Jean Robertson Speers bn. Scotland 25/6/1892. Could only find one Pat, sure hope that puts her to rest.
Not without a source, no.
Pat: If I did that it’d only make you feel inept, so sorry I’m not going down that path. There may have been two living in Melbourne after all and along with a name like Jean Robertson Speers, who knows. Just such a pity she has nothing to do with one Dorothy Jean Webb.
Dorothy Scotting
4495/1990
Died Randwick, NSW
David Morgan, that wouldn’t be our Doff, alas and woe, the Christian names are in order in that category, Jean Dorothy Robertson, and she probably would have gone Dorothy Jean Webb in 1945. The ABC of Piano playing is available for $36.27 …. h’mm, pricey.
I got fascinated with tge Dorothy Jean Robertson with lots of dogs, then one of the cloth in Sydney, but found nothing yet …. the search continues.
Well spotted Pat, husband Tom (1907/95) lka c/o G.A. Morton 149 Botany Rd. Waterloo NSW…West Ham United supporter.
I wonder whether Carl met Dorothy through Webb’s agency 16 Chapel St, Windsor. Carl was a late starter perhaps he liked his poetry books more than socializing. I wonder if there is an advert that is a near match.
e.g.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205305955?searchTerm=%22Webb%27s%20agency%22
Suggesting that the Webb agency client drove an XJ (Jag) in 1941 sounds a bit ambitious in that the mark wasn’t born til ’68. Always had doubts about Trove.
The Sands & McDougall directory lists a Mrs. J. Robertson at Wallaroo from 1952 to 1961.
In 1951 and 1952 there’s Dr. R. P. Robertson (not present in 1953) and V. J. Robertson (until 1962, at least), so they’re probably not related to J. Robertson.
Dorothy Jean Lockyer had an operation at Wallaroo Hospital. Geoff Lockyer was well know at Bute but there’s no mention of Dorothy, despite their marriage in Dec 1952 at Kadina.
Could it be her? (again, her nephew told Abbott that she was known as Jean).
ROBERTSON Jean
Death notice 17JUN1998
Late of Waverley
Publication: Sydney Morning Herald, 27JUN1998
If she changed her name or was ‘known’ as Jean, there are some ‘new’ options.
I’m not sure if the 10 days gap between the death notice and publication is a typo on The Ryerson Index.
Does anyone have access to this edition of the SMH? I couldn’t find her on the Australian Cemeteries Index, Findagrave and BillionGraves.
I’m assuming her nephew said she died in the late 90s instead of late 1990. Does anyone know what he meant?
Pat: if you go back in time you’ll get a truer perspective with regard to the Kadina Robertson clan. They virtually ran the place and indeed had extensive business interests all over the Yorke Peninsular that included Wallaroo on the coast and Butte in the interior. Apart from the Robertson surname being by far the most prevalent amongst Scottish settlers in the pioneering days, I dare say Jean as a first name must have been near top of the list for the lassies. My best advice is to get with the CM program and stay clear of Derek’s self serving FB stale news.
Pat: just in case you missed this other not so prime candidate.
ROBERTSON Jean
Born 1920
Death notice 19May1998
Late of Batteau Bay, formerly of Orange
Publication: Central Coast Express Advocate, 22May1998
FYI, your Jean Robertson is a different one…
Surname Given Names Notice Type Date Event Age Other Details Publication Published
ROBERTSON Jean Death notice 17JUN1998 Death late of Waverley Sydney Morning Herald 27JUN1998
ROBERTSON Jean Death notice 19MAY1998 Death 78 late of Bateau Bay, formerly of Orange Central Coast Express Advocate 22MAY1998
Oh and there were other Robetsons living in Wallaroo and Kadina who were not related to the Kadina clan you are referring to, of Mr. Jim Robertson of J. A. Robertson’s Drapery. Robertson is a very common surname in Australia 😉
Pat: try as I might I’m not coming up with any of your Robetson families in Kadina or Wallaroo, infact none in Sth Australia. I did catch up with an Elzabeth at Fawkner and William at Swan Hill in FAG but they may have been in error, as was a full page on NAA arrivals that turned out to be all of the common Robertson garden variety. So where to from here my dear how about Dorothy Roberts with variations at your discretion, you reckon we might strike it lucky there sweatheart?
Could Dorothy be Robin’s genetic mother getting the hypodontia from her side of the grafted sapling?
Alan H…when Dorothy was conceived in late 1919, her mother had likely been exposed to Syphilus infection as consequence of her sexual relations with John Robertson, a carrier, whom she had married shortly after his return from Egypt that year and who was under treatment. So any thing’s possible including birth defects that can be passed down to offspring along with a host of communicable diseases including hypodontia..We’ve never been offered absolute proof of Robin Thomson having been the child of Jessica Harkness so theoretically speaking it’s ‘conceivable’ that Dorothy Webb and future Hon. PM Bill McMahon be Robin’s genetic parents.
@Js,
That is my theory with Carl that he was a graft on the Webb family tree. That is why they wanted genetic genealogy with mtDNA to resolve his parentage whereas DNA would expose his real dad.
JS, I have searched the Ryerson index, Findagrave, Billion Graves, Google, Sydney Herald death notices archives, and Sands & Mc for Dorothy Jean and Dorothy J., irrespective of the surname. I don’t have access to electoral rolls, Ancestry, and police files like you, so the next logical step is to search for Jean.
I know that Prof Abbott’s students must have gone through all of them but maybe something has been missed. Anyway, if you don’t care about finding her movements and place of rest, don’t bother replying to me. I know you must be very busy reading Gordon Cramer’s blog.
Cheerio
@ Pat
Thanks. While they all consistently look like a g to me, I see your point that it could be a matter of styling the J as (less so) in the marriage certificate. Since usually initializing pages is formally expected from the person herself, I myself doubt it could be someone else doing it for her (even though I suspected that too). But could be just a matter of styling the J. So, perhaps nothing important and you explained it.
So only cousins and no great great grandkids great-grandkids Etc so I guess we can assume that Carl Charles and Dorothy never had children.
@stephanie,
There’s still the mystery of Roy’s child. Who was the daddy?
No mystery at all Steph. That is if you substitute Roy for Carl in the jungle grave, by the old Moulmein pagoda; as your above informant theorised in a very early episode, right here at CM, if memory.serves me correctly.
An amazing coincidence that the Dorothy Jean Robertson who died in 1965 – flat 6 of 8-12 Parring Road, Balwyn had Charles B Malpas an articled clerk as a witness. He lived at 274 Domain Road. He doesn’t seem to exist on NAA and no other info about him. Perhaps he appears post-1960s in newspapers that are not Trove’d.
This Dorothy gave away $26,192.23 including to the Legacy Club and the Carry-on Club which both seem to have strong ties to Jewish servicemen suggesting she married someone Jewish.
DM: seems you missed the pics of a LP candidate Chas. Malpas, with ladies of Corio constuancy Geelong ’69; Can be found on NAA of all places mugger.
DM: gotta dig deeper if you’re gonna catch up with Charles B. Malpas. Your best lead would be with his dad Charles Snr. who also comes up on NAA and was voted greatest Pommie born Aussie of all time by inventing his humble wine cask in the late sixties. No idea who this Dorothy Jean Robertson might’ve been, certainly not our Doff with all that dosh to give away.
DM: Charles Brydon Malpas 1940 – 2004. You’ll find his dad on Australian Bios.
@ David – another Charles Malpas was responsible for a very important Australian invention- the wine cask!
DM: last clue; Jon Henry Malpas bn. 1941 comes up same address as father on NAA so a younger brother of Chas. Also an accountant and still with us most likely.
In the inventions of Charles Malpas: my aunt from Lancashire took a job in Sydney in the early 1980s. I asked her how she liked Australia.
“‘Straylia! Bloody brilliant! You go to t’ offie fura bottle a wine and you get a little box wiya tap in it!”
Jo: I don’t have an axe to grind with ‘jumping in for your chop’ re my wine cask inventor research, but you could have held off for a day or two til the heat died down to get the credit. Shades of the initial referal to Dorothy’s stillborn? baby and subsequent admittance for post operative contusions which got lost in the rush by CWA members to lay claim.
DM: We know of course it was vintner and former RAAF Flt. Lt. T.W.C. Angove of Renmark who devised the plastic resealable wine bladder concept circa. 1964. It was only after engineer and former RAF Flt. Lt. C.M. Malpas and partner Penfolds Wines Ltd. patented a flow tap fitting in 1967 to dispense wine from their Chateau cardbard 4.5 litre box, that its popularity was assured.
@JS,
The real point was clerk Malpas saying 274 Domain Road. How did he live there after 1948/49? when it became a nurses home.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23022686?searchTerm=%22274%20domain%20road%22%2C%20%22nurse%22
His familysearch tree doesn’t explain how he could be at 274 Domain road in the 1960s.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/portrait/G8YQ-N6Y
Perhaps his dad bought it after the nurses vacated.
DM: dunno mugger, dad never moved far from Geelong until the 80s when he’d become a billionare. Charles Malpas junior’s uncle? Tristan Buesst lived further down Domain Rd. at 237 and seems aunt? Judith Manifold at 268 from memory. 274 is a dead end from the 50’s after the Nips had left and the nurses took over.
.