Commenter John Sanders is convinced that the man at the right-hand-edge of the Webb family photo is Leslie William Scott, husband of Carl Webb’s sister Gladys May. Here are some notes on Mr and Mrs L. W. Scott…

Leslie William Scott

Leslie William Scott was born in 1895 to Samuel William Scott (b. 1869 Gympie, Queensland, died March 1939) and Mary Elizabeth West (1870-1950): Samuel was survived by Leslie and three other sons (“Mr. Lindsay Scott, who is attached to the railway staff and is stationed at Maffra; Mr. Walter Scott, who is a member of the Australian navy, and is stationed at the Flinders Naval Base; and Mr. Pat Scott [VX123596], of Camperdown“) and three daughters (“Mrs. F. Grayland and Mrs. M. Murnane (Terang) and Mrs. C. Bateman (Bostock’s Creek)“.

He worked for 4½ years as an apprentice printer for his father (proprietor of the Camperdown “Herald”), before heading off to fight in WWI. From his AIF records (at the NAA), he was 5 feet 11 inches, 10 st 2 lbs, 32 inch chest, fair complexion, grey eyes, fair hair, Presbyterian, and had a scar below his right knee. However, a war wound at Gallipoli in 1915 led to the amputation of his left hand, causing him to return to Australia. (An initial news report saying that he had had an arm amputated was incorrect.)

Having gained a “[Certificate] of Competency under section 171 of the Local Government Act 1915 (No.2686)” (p.863), and a brief stint as secretary to Winchelsea Shire Council, he became assistant town clerk at Essendon in 1921. From there he became Essendon’s deputy town clerk by 1929, and then – don’t gasp too hard – Essendon town clerk in 1940.

Leslie Scott lived at 15 Coats Street, Moonee Ponds (telephone FV7743), which is where his parents-in-law were living when Richard August Webb died in 1939; and also at 9 Peterleigh Grove, Essendon. He died on 9th September 1971 [Thanks P!]. I’ve been unable to find any photographs of him in Trove (or elsewhere).

Gladys May Scott (nee Webb)

Gladys May Webb was born in Prahran in 1897, and (according to The Age) married Leslie William Scott on 4th July 1918 at the Presbyterian Church, Camperdown.

Though Trove has many mentions of her (as honorary secretary of this, that or the other society in Essendon), she only seems to appear in a single photograph (from 1946), with the caption “Mrs Fraser [the wife of Cr. J. W. S. Fraser, Mayor of Essendon] is seen greeting Mrs L. W. Scott [on the right]“:

She died on 03 July 1955 at “her residence, 9 Peterleigh Grove, Essendon”: and in 1958 it was solicitors trying to trace Gladys’ missing brother who believed that Carl Webb might have gone to Cottesloe.

The Family Photo

Once again, here’s the family photo:

John Sanders is adamant that the man on the far right is Leslie William Scott: he certainly looks tall enough (to be Scott’s height of 5′ 11″), and does appear to be covering up his left hand area:

Is that him? And is his wife Gladys May in the family photo as well?

Other People

On the other side of the photo, there’s another man who looks a dead ringer for the guy on the right. So I do wonder whether this might be one of Leslie William Scott’s three brothers (my best guess would be that this is Lindsay Scott whose WWI physical description is practically identical to Leslie William Scott’s, but I have no actual evidence to back this up):

I also wonder whether the older couple just next to this man might be Samuel William Scott and his wife Mary Elizabeth West (i.e. the lady with the mysterious “Thing” hand on her shoulder):

(Actually, I’m pretty sure the “Thing” hand is just an optical illusion, formed of the man’s hunched up left knee / dark trousers and the right hand of the lady sitting beside her, who similarly has her left hand on the shoulder of the lady on her other side. And might this possibly be a Scott sister?)

I wonder if there are more photographs out there to be had… any more thoughts on this?

592 thoughts on “Gladys May Webb and Leslie William Scott…

  1. poppins on January 1, 2023 at 8:50 pm said:

    Gladys and Leslie have become two of my favourites from this family. Heading to library this week to check out more gazettes that aren’t on Trove, hope to find a photo or two in there.

  2. Leslie Scott was also appointed as a magistrate in 1950, for the central “bailiwick” of Victoria – quite a serious appointment.

    http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/images/1950/V/general/527.pdf

    As executor of Gladys’ will, I wonder what Leslie Scott did when Charlie still hadn’t been located by 1958? (as per the newspaper notices looking for him).

    It really does seem that the extended family believed that Charlie had gone to WA and really didn’t know what had happened to him.

  3. as a rule husband and wife were seated together as in husband on the top and wife below except for grandpa and grandma Web. The man seated above GMS might possibly be LWS. As for the lady sitting below GP Webb, it might be his sister?

  4. From Gladys’ probate document it looks to me that her solicitors were given an address that was used to try and contact Charlie in 1955 (note, “in hand” written next to his name).

    According to Dorothy’s divorce docs, Mrs Scott didn’t reply to solicitor Henry Gillam’s letter of 9 March 1951, asking for information on Charlie’s whereabouts… (Mrs Martin was the only one to reply, by phone, stating that she hadn’t seen Charlie for over three years).

    On the photo – I’m quite perplexed as Stuart Webb has told Pete Bowes that his great grandmother (Amy Sarah Harriet Webb nee Tomkinson b1895, d1929) is one of those featured in it.

    I wonder whether anonymity was contrived by Charlie before his death by suicide, in consideration of his family.

  5. John Sanders on January 2, 2023 at 2:01 am said:

    Nick Pelling: thanks for agreeing with my claim that the ‘hand of God” was likely to have been an optical illusion created by alignment of Thing’s left knee and ‘white’ lady’s hand on my Lottie Martin’s left shoulder. No need for you to have bothered with the Scott’s genialogical detail to prove that the man whose left arm was sadly amputated (see NAA casualty report) is indeed the same Leslie Scott as depicted in the Webb family gathering. What is in doubt is, that so far I’m the only one game enough to put his then age at forty plus, which of course would align with my most humiliating contension that said photo was taken ten years in advance of popular opinion. Now on another issue, might I suggest that it be in our best interests for a timely revisit of the Martin family which needs clarification. Whilst your choice of the chap centre frame sitting alongside poor Sandra’s ‘spot the dog’ owner, seems to be favoured by most punters, I stand firmly by my own view. It being that all three non fartin’ Martins can be readily identified as the trio down by Grandma, so long as anti colonel sanders bias’s are not in play.

  6. Heavy Debbie Cass on January 2, 2023 at 5:11 am said:

    Sorry Jo, but wrong, wrong, wrong as can be! That is a very different Leslie Scott and the baliwick was not a prestigious one at all. Even so it was much more important than anything to which a Webb could aspire. These people were strictly low class and low education.

  7. John Sanders on January 2, 2023 at 5:42 am said:

    NP: sure looks like you got Leslie’s younger brother Lindsay pegged but, I’m not so sure about Lurch being Scott Snr. or that is his good lady below, my contention being being still that she is more elderly Lottie Martin. Former Vic. Rail man Lindsay also got to be a Lieutenant in the home guard and a big wig at Camperdown shire hall along with the other high local government offices. By the way he had put on two inches, two stone in weight and had brown hair (what was left of it) by the time of the photo. There is no getting away from the fact that Lindsay, he being four years junior to one handed bro. Les could certainly pass for forty. that beng the case, it would leave you and the roaring 20s mob in a somewhat invidious position, would it not?. If I was in your shoes, I’d be hoping against hope that our Lindsay is in fact little brother Patrick Sydney bn. 1907 or Walter Hartley bn. 1905.
    Good luck mate, hope you’re shot in the dark identification proves to be just that!

  8. John Sanders on January 2, 2023 at 6:48 am said:

    ….reckon we can give Walter Scott (Here’s health to King Charlie) the big heave ho. At just 174cm and with a flaming mop (licence) of red hair to boot he doesn’t seem to fit the bill for your man Nick. Apart from that Wally the sailor man seems to have been all at sea from 1923 til his discharge upon cessation of WW2 hostilities in ’46.

  9. poppins on January 2, 2023 at 6:59 am said:

    That’s a great find Jo, magistrate, impressive credentials indeed.
    Oh boy, just found this article about Leslie shaking the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester’s hands, but no photo, ah phooey …. there’s gotta be one somewhere though.
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206869639?searchTerm=Scott%20town%20clerk

  10. To the troll misusing a dead woman’s name: Leslie Scott, magistrate, seems to share both Leslie Scott’s name and his address. Some people experience social and educational mobility in their lives, I’d say that has been true for some in the Webb family. Some people fall through the gutter and into the dark depths of the sewer, where they immerse themselves, flailing about and tossing around what they find there. Sad, sad, sad. GARN…

  11. that random hand , once you see it you cant unsee it but i suspect it might be Gladys’s hand.
    The man on the far right cradling something in his arm or covering it is an acquaintance of G Keane…..simple body language.
    Likewise the reason Eliza Webb is on the far left is because she is paying extra attention to guests, that haven’t been seen in an amount of time and seem closely related. ie husband, wife and son/brother and wife/sister

  12. @Jo , his death by suicide isn’t and wasn’t proven, please don’t cite it as a fact. There are lots of factors that point to the contrary and if you take the events of the day and the evidence presented, it seems more like an accidental death/ death by misadventure rather than suicide

  13. John Sanders on January 3, 2023 at 7:22 am said:

    PB: Yes, I’ve covered much of what you and GC are now discussing more than once here on CM. So to put it all into perspective without need for elaboration; Due to the fact that the embalmed body was ‘sweating’ profusely and it was effecting the complicated process involved, a large fan from the museum had most likely been installed in the work area. It would then have been blowing in the direction of the by now no longer stiff stiff. As a consequence, accumilated debris must have been flying straight up towards the action and so may well have included hairs from yesterday’s slab clients George and/or Wolff. Seems like a reasonable plot for an enthralling Tbt thread what do reckon?

  14. john sanders on January 3, 2023 at 9:48 am said:

    During the course of his thirty odd years as a town clerk/registrar in a number of burroughs both in Melbourne suburbs and country Victoria, he should in the that capacity have had good relations with like officers throughout the land, one would expect. And yet Les had no luck in tracking down his long missing brother in law ‘Charlie’ who by his flagrant disregard of a matrimonial causes maintanance order, must have been wanted on warrant issued under federal juristiction. So if Les was doing the usual in-house trap searches as would have been a normal part of his duties, and yet couldn’t get close to the man by late ’48, Charlie was probably out of the country or else covering his tracks pretty darned well.

  15. Petebowes on January 3, 2023 at 9:59 am said:

    ‘Had most likely’. … ‘would then have been’ …. ‘Must have been flying’ … ‘May well have included’ …
    Dick Tracey you ain’t Dusty …

  16. @ Em – you’re right, point taken, suicide has never been proven.

  17. Debzz Cass on January 3, 2023 at 1:33 pm said:

    John, are you suggesting for a moment that the hairs were from another dead man who happened to be Carl Webb?

    We would be perfectly mad to support Mr Mistry’s claims about Carl Webb.

    By the way, does anyone know when or why he changed his
    Name?

  18. @John Sanders what evidence have we got that he might have been abroad
    darkened fair hair?
    winter clothing?
    nz edition rubaiyat?
    or maybe CW just changed his name

  19. Steve H (resurrected) on January 3, 2023 at 5:24 pm said:

    Nick

    Allowing comments from someone purporting to be Debzz (Heavy Debbie) Cass – ie a woman who died from cancer – is more than disgusting. Jo already made a remark about this. I can only now assume that you support anti-Semitic viewpoints (Cass was Jewish) and as such I for one no longer wish to be associated with this site. I may or may not have been correct in my (posing as Bob Nowak) recent identification of the individual making these remarks but whoever it is you must know and be in cahoots with them. There are legal repercussions to publishing this sort of thing in the UK!

    You can post this comment or not as you see fit.

    From zela.com.au:

    “Deborah [Cass] was the second child of Shirley and Moss Cass and she grew up in a family who believed strongly in the hopes for change that infused the late 1960s and early 1970s. Her father, Dr Moss Cass, was appointed by newly-elected Labor Prime Minister Gough Whitlam as Australia’s first minister for the environment in late 1972…A cancer diagnosis in 2003 saw Deborah Cass receive treatment in the UK and three years later the family returned to Melbourne, believing she had little time left to live. Showing amazing fighting spirit, Cass continued to live and work for a further seven years, until her passing in 2013.”

  20. Poppins on January 3, 2023 at 9:19 pm said:

    Here’s a write-up for Leslie at the time of his passing in 1971, a few more clues in there that could lead to finding a photo.

    https://imgur.com/kucFtxL

  21. Thanks Steve

    Taking a break.

  22. John Sanders on January 3, 2023 at 10:33 pm said:

    em: you’ll find evidence of when and where he may have gone in the Globite. And yes, I’d say that the uncirculated pocket ROK could also give us a lead. If you care to travel back in time five years or so you may find more clues in my earlier posts. Thanks for showing a genuine interest and I suggest a good start for any further inquiry would be Post War Immigration to Australia and ‘Fifth Fleet’ arrivals for 1948 (Wiki). I have some business to attend to with a another not so hard to find Webb (dec.) No guarantees mind!

  23. john sanders on January 3, 2023 at 10:46 pm said:

    Debzz Cass: I didn’t reference Carl Webb specifically, but why not. Although that would place all three in the same place at the same time and, as the saying goes, three’s a crowd…

  24. David Morgan on January 4, 2023 at 12:04 am said:

    Is the big guy on the right in the family photo hiding his missing left hand – Les Scott?

    He looks old enough and about 5′ 11″.

  25. John Sanders on January 4, 2023 at 1:13 am said:

    Poppins: your article speaks of Leslie Scott’s passion for bowling. Werribee bowling club opened in 1922 on the grounds of Chirndide pleasure park & botanic gardens, with famous race course opposite on the the western side of the river. Nice setting for a weekend excursion and note that the younger men, plus the ‘Hand of God’ lady in white, are attired appropriately for bowling; not so Leslie who was more of a competition player guess.

  26. Hi Poppins,

    Who’s Marjorie?

    Remarried after Gladys passed on?

  27. Poppins on January 4, 2023 at 6:58 am said:

    Gladys’s write-up, she sounds so wonderful and lovely – sorry, I took photo of screen, should have printed it out, will do so next time, hard to read, but you should be able to read it John Sanders with your magnificent peepers.
    https://imgur.com/XC8TKVh

    Not very clear, but here’s the photo from the gazette of the Mayor in his civic robes and chain of office and Leslie in his robes of office meeting those royals in 1945. Once again sorry, will do a printout next time, it was a full front page story.
    https://imgur.com/MgYj0x6

  28. Lady Rylah on January 4, 2023 at 7:13 am said:

    In case you humourless scrub turkeys need a lesson in British and Australian law, you cannot defame the dead. That goes for Jolly Jestyn, Heavy Debbie or the Moronic Moss Cass. He was an illegal abortionist many many years before it became popular. That press your buttons, Jo? [Moderator: a line got stepped over here, so block removed] He was also related to a late boyfriend of Jestyn and was – like she and her travelers at the local Branch – a raging great commie. To me this is a public interest issue and the links are clear. But hey, shut down this ‘hate speech’ and protect the reputations of putrid dead people. Twats.

  29. poppins on January 4, 2023 at 7:41 am said:

    Lurch, yes, he remarried after Gladys’s passing – Misca mentions it in the Dorothy Jean Webb & Geoffrey Arthur Lockyer thread: @Misca November 11, 2022 at
    10:53 pm – a Marjorie Constance Bee.

    John Sanders, now you mention it the lady in white does look like she’s in a bowling outfit. Interesting.

  30. Maquarie Dictionary Enquiries on January 4, 2023 at 9:10 am said:

    We have received an enquiry from one of your commenters about the Australian English term “garn”, addressed to them recently by another of your contributors “Jo”. Here is a link to a brief explanatory video, featuring animated koalas in a bucolic Australian school setting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMh5VFdpShQ

  31. David Morgan on January 4, 2023 at 9:42 am said:

    Leslie Scott was only acting town clerk and when Wellington returned from the war he presumably became deputy again?

  32. John Sanders on January 4, 2023 at 12:59 pm said:

    David Morgan: go back and look again and you’ll find that Les managed to get the top job in two later municipal posts. Seems to me that your not always with the program eg. your 12.04am done to death post on the big guy’s missing left hand.

  33. Lady Rylah

    Just come across a lovely pome. Let me quote a little:

    “ALAS, I housed myself
    Because AUSTRALIA … Bullies
    Consoles the HETTYS AND BARTS,
    Looks after the TARTS, rogue HUB’S and Finishes of the
    Old Wivey TART. [ SLUT]
    Actually.
    But I so far have survived it All
    I stand tall at 4ft 11inches.
    FOOL of a husband, gave them
    The INCH and they took it ALL. ”

    Great innit?

  34. @poppins, great find! Seems like they were prominent members of society at the time. So quite perplexing that they couldn’t locate Carl with all their influence. Would be nice if further phots of LWS could be found, still certain he is the one sat with his wife rather than the gangster looking guy in the hat

  35. Poppins on January 4, 2023 at 9:04 pm said:

    Thanks em, it is perplexing. I guess they just never saw the Somerton Man photo. Maybe they put notices in earlier WA or Vic newspapers trying to find him, papers that aren’t online. Will look again next week for photos, more likely to be one in the 40s and 50s reels I guess. Looking at that Mayoral photo I have to say he does have the same build and shape as the guy in the hat on the right, and is holding his arms the same way, so I reckon it is Leslie – conditions apply – need clearer pic though 🙂

  36. This is getting fairly well interleaved with the dating the photo thread, but are we dealing with Samuel’s or Mary’s 60th (1929 or 1930 respectively)? Or do you celebrate things like a new promotion to deputy clerk?

    I’m not necessarily convinced on the older couple being Samuel & Mary though, as they the waif look, and the possible sons look like they found a good paddock.

    The lady in the white hat with her hands on other’s shoulders I have as Gladys. She seems to bear the same resemblance as the older Gladys in the top photo, and seems to be dressed to go places.

    As for the apparent Scott brother behind her, I had him down as Samuel and possibly Mary in the centre below Richard Webb. If the Scott’s are in it at all. You’d think that they’d have at least one image of shameless self promotion in their newspaper in order to cross reference.

    John could be very well right about heading out of town by train for a picnic, pretty popular pastime. I found this photo from a large collection of Victorian picnics from late 1890s to present. It certainly describes how they would all get there, and check out the white shirts. Of course I was hoping to see the exact same landscape thinking it might have been a popular spot to have photos taken. I did find one with a hedge though…

    https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5e80685721ea6712a80890e7

    https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5d01aae921ea700e64cb7257

    And the entire collection…

    https://victoriancollections.net.au/collections?q=picnic

  37. poppins on January 5, 2023 at 6:58 am said:

    Ah, do you think maybe Gladys is the mystery lady in white – in a Red Cross uniform, looks very similar to this 1940s pic.
    https://www.redcross.org.au/about/history-and-heritage/

  38. John Sanders on January 5, 2023 at 9:34 am said:

    Poppins: golden rule is “when you’re on a good thing stick to it” your change of mind from a typical loose bowling outfit & floppy hat, to tighter wide collared Red Cross uniform for our ‘white lady’ doesn’t work but for the same shade of white.

  39. Calypso on January 5, 2023 at 9:58 am said:

    Well spotted poppins, that uniform resembles very well, even the hat. She also has a clip or broche attached and a peculiar elongated necklace. A whistle perhaps?

  40. Calypso on January 5, 2023 at 10:08 am said:

    Except the dress is sleeveless and the slips of the collar are off.

  41. Poppins on January 5, 2023 at 10:11 pm said:

    Calypso, the other photo was from 1940 so maybe the uniform has evolved since the late 20s, need to find a pic though. Hadn’t seen the brooch before, could be major clue there with the pendant, well spotted too.
    John Sanders, on reading Gladys’s obituary there’s no mention of bowling or bowlers attending the funeral.
    Attending the funeral were the Mayor, councillors and citizens of Essendon, Essendon Baby Health Centre Committee, Directors and staff of Gerrard Wire Machine Co (hey that’s interesting, maybe Carl worked for them at some point?) – Queen Victoria Hospital Auxiliary, the Essendon District Memorial Hospital Auxiliary, the Royal Melbourne Hospital Auxiliary – more likely an outfit to do with one of them I’m thinking. It’s funny that the last two I would have suspected of being Gladys and Leslie are probably Gladys and Leslie, whoopsie.

  42. Lecher Mon Cul on January 6, 2023 at 3:48 pm said:

    Nice little coincidence spotted.

    From the ‘Merry Christmas 2022…’ thread:

    “John Sanders
    on December 30, 2022 at 5:13 am said:
    Gordon Cramer: Hey there Flashman welcome to our troll friendly CM website and heartfelt complements of the season to both you, PeteDavo and all your fine BS/TS alters & anons.”

    Then on 4 Jan on this thread we were treated to a lovely comment from “Lady Rylah”, frothing at the mouth about Jestyn again (under a new alias) and her supposed lover Dr Cass of Unwin. The real Lady Rylah’s birth name? Ann Flora Froude Flashman (the fourth woman in Australia to qualify as a veterinarian). Now I know someone who’s a bit obsessed with vets. The ones that care for moggies and pooches etc. JS being a Viet vet may or may not be a coincidence.

    (Always thought Sanders was dismissive of a link between Jestyn and SM. Now wondering if he hasn’t been playing us all for fools and pretending to argue against himself just to get more attention. What sort of person would do that? In-jokes and all that! DE-spicable! Or perhaps he and Flash Gordon are closer than we are led to believe. A lot closer. Is Flash himself a troll here?)

    For those of you not well versed in Australian history there was a bit of a rumpus about Lady R’s death. From The Canberra Times Mon 17 Mar 1969 Page 3:

    “Lady Rylah
    found dead
    MELBOURNE, Sunday.
    — Lady Rylah, wife of the
    Chief Secretary, Sir Arthur
    Rylah, collapsed and died
    at her home in Kew at the
    weekend.
    Lady Rylah, who was 58,
    was found lying in the
    backyard of her home by
    two girl kennel attendants
    who arrived for work at
    about 8am. She had appar-
    ently been dead for several
    hours.
    An autopsy revealed that
    Lady Rylah had suffered a
    cerebral haemorrhage. She
    had not had a medical
    checkup for some time.”

    Now some mean-spirited folk whispered malicious rumours. Let’s quote from that old standby Wikipedia:

    “He [Sir Arthur Rylah] separated from his wife Ann in 1968, and on 15 March 1969 she was found dead in her garden. An autopsy determined that she had died of a stroke and the state coroner, in an unusual move which generated considerable controversy at the time, allowed her remains to be cremated without an inquest into her sudden death. Within seven months Rylah married Norma Alison (‘Ruth’) Reiner, née French, a divorcee 17 years his junior.”

    Of course the famous Harry Flashman was an even bigger reprobate than Prince Harry, who has now revealed a few secrets to an unforgiving world – eg from the Page Six website, reviewing the dear boy’s book: “One of Prince Harry’s startling revelations in his new memoir, “Spare,” includes the reveal his “todger” was frostbitten following a March 2011 expedition to the North Pole”. They quote Harry thus:

    “There were countless stories in books, and papers (even The New York Times) about Willy and me not being circumcised. Mummy had forbidden it, they all said, and while it’s absolutely true that the chance of getting penile frostbite is much greater if you’re not circumcised [?], all the stories were false. I was snipped as a baby.”

    John Sanders and Ann O please take note! Ann mentioned some unpleasant speculations about John’s “todger” on the ‘Dating the Webb’ family photo’ thread yesterday. Just to remind readers of the sordid details, Ann commented, quoting the estimable Lady Janet:

    ““Lady Janet of Adelaide
    on June 18, 2021 at 1:32 am said:
    Sanders […] uncircumcised tool […]…”

    Personally I couldn’t give a damn whether you’ve had the clip or not. In fact the thought of your shrivelled old todger makes me gag, and not in a good way!)”

    Had Ann obtained an advance copy of Harry’s book and so had circumcision and willies on her mind?

    Meanwhile Harry Flashman had many conquests but surprisingly never bedded Fanny Duberly of Crimea fame, who we are told in one of George MacDonald Fraser’s Flashman books “could ride, that girl”, but in the end poor old Harry wasn’t even able to “give her tits a squeeze”.

    At least Flashman counted up his lovers, unlike the ignoble Prince who counted up how many fighters he killed in Afghanistan.

    If you do find out any more info on all this rubbish, as they say down these ‘yer parts, “Don’t tell I, tell ee!”

  43. I concur with the commenter above. Lady Rylah, nee Flashman, (4 January), is a name possibly appropriated by either John Sanders or Gordon Cramer, or someone who would like us to think this. They have also demonstrated antisemitic and misogynistic commenting tendencies that have nothing to do with this case.

    I think Nick has better things to do with his time than editing out stupidity.

    Poppins’ actual research is far more interesting than the trolling right now.

  44. John Sanders on January 7, 2023 at 9:35 am said:

    Alan H…9.21pm 3rd Jan, Jo (@ Lady Ryah nee Flashman?), after letting Steve know she was “taking a break” must have had a change of heart, instead hip hopping straight over to Tbt for a chat, then another with Pete Bowes all ado about nothing. Now look who’s back from her break and behaving much like the dispicable trolls on this site she can’t get get enough of. Me thinks the woman protests much too much and much too often not to have an ulterior motive, and one that seems to be playing out rather well. PS anyone with history would know that my usage of Flash Gordon and Flash as a prop for Mr. Cramer goes back four years. As for Sir & Lady Rylah, never heard of them til…well just two days ago actually!

  45. Thanks for the tip Johnno and kind of glad that Lady Rylah nee Flashman wasn’t you. I’ll let you take up the appropriation with Alan Hamill or whoever. If you nail him you’re in for a Gould Bird Lovers League badge for sure! No ulterior motive here – I’m just into good research, kindness and an occasional laugh. Stop following my digital footprint (eg my like for one of Pat’s comments on DA’s FB, an odd comment on TbT) – I’ll willingly hand over my Wordle stats if you really want them.

  46. Steve H on January 7, 2023 at 10:06 pm said:

    My team (Ann, Bob and Lecher) and I have now concluded our investigation into the trolling on this site and have detailed our findings on another platform. No one need in future be frightened off or intimidated by these individuals as we are able to give details over to the relevant bodies if we feel it is necessary. Whilst libelling and slandering dead people may not be subject to defamation laws, anti-Semitic hate speech is punishable by law in both the UK and Australia.

    One particular troll is a very sad person who in “real life” is rather pathetic and inoffensive in manner and appearance – we have seen their photo. Their QAnon style fantasies are beyond ludicrous.

    We have had to use some underhand and devious tactics to flush these individuals out including the occasional obfuscation of our various identities and the utilisation of one or two vaguely unpleasant personal attacks on other contributors. This, I might add in conclusion, has given us a great deal of amusement and pleasure.

  47. Team Steve: I’m so glad you’ve finally worked out that Trolls say Bad Things and that Everyone Blames the Moderators Anyway, I love a happy ending, me.

    It’s just a shame you had to invest so much effort into method acting as a troll to learn those lessons.

  48. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 4:32 am said:

    Petebowes: raw prawns or royal reds?

  49. Team Steve – can you please report this to the authorities? Because this is a moderated blog and anything published here is the responsibility of the owner, I’m not sure whether individual contributors can be effectively punished to our satisfaction. But we should certainly try to flush them out and have them brought to account. Particularly where antisemitic statements have been made. The qAnon individual may need to be monitored by one of our state fixated persons squads. Such people recently caused the deaths of three policemen in Queensland.

  50. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 6:56 am said:

    Jo: please don’t ask me not to pass comment re your digital footprint, that be simply a way of letting lost sheep know when it’s time to come home. There is no need at all for you to hand over your Wordle stats whatever they represent, however, if it’s no trouble, I’d ask that you and your colleagues posting under assumed or ‘pet’ identities, might henceforth try using real ones as a sign of integrity and openness. I think folks will agree that by using one’s God given name it tends to lend more validity to the message being conveyed; greater personal accountability and self respect coming as an added bonus.

  51. john sanders for site integrity on January 8, 2023 at 7:42 am said:

    Curve: I’d be pleased if you might provide specifics on how, on line antisemitic statements allegedly made on this Ciphermysteries moderated blog had “recently caused the deaths of three policemen in Queensland”. Full details of the alleged offender, personal details inc. ISP address &c., should be supplied forthwith being mindful that there is no obligation on your part to respond, as legal repercussions may follow. Also it be essential that in further communications, your full name, title and on-line address for service be supplied.

  52. Issy from Iluka on January 8, 2023 at 10:32 am said:

    Mr Sanders! The bloody cheek of it! It seems to be largely account of your nasturtiums that all the girls on here started using sudokonyms! And didn’t Cuvée say « such people »? Reminding us of where weird and hateful shit can lead.

    When a girl starts mentioning her Wordle stats you know she probably wears glasses…

    Oi, Dude, if you can hear me out there in this empty cyberspace, could you give this fella a fine please?

  53. John Sanders .. Vietnamese farmed prawns, frozen fresh, no shitline, soft shell .. nothing you or I would eat.

  54. thedue747 on January 8, 2023 at 12:24 pm said:

    Issy I concur. Ive been surfing in Bali for a week or so and only just checked in and I see the Colonel has been running around like an unregistered canine.
    The man couldn’t roll a hoop down an f..ing hill yet he struts around like boss cock and I for one will be issuing a fine of a family feast and four 1.25 litres of Mountain Dew. He on his way to another court marshal.

  55. Steve H on January 8, 2023 at 12:27 pm said:

    Well, screw you and your site then Nick. You seem happier with the real trolls anyway, who I’m sure you are in collusion with. It’s been a hoot – not much effort at all, just bluff. Something you’re good at mate – not much to show for more than a decade on the SM case, eh? You’re a user, stealing other people’s ideas and findings and coming up with Sweet Fanny Adams yourself! Another Fanny to shove up your backside.

  56. Steve H: “troll (noun): someone who leaves an intentionally annoying or offensive message on the internet, in order to upset someone or to get attention or cause trouble”.

  57. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 1:00 pm said:

    Issi from Iluka, no where near Kapooka, Balranald or Echuca
    I’ve got a chin like Joe Palooka, and I’m deadly as a Stuka
    I can thrash your arse in snooker and trump you out at eucre.

    Wanna play your hand out with the demoted colonel mofo? be my guest!

  58. As welcome as a verruca
    Or a misfiring bazooka
    Or piss in the sambuca
    Or the death of poor Gianluca

  59. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 1:26 pm said:

    Thedue747 (?)…then ‘holler for a marshal’ you might need one to enforce the fine. Don’t count on any ‘got your back dude’ from likes of Issy or Bob, whoops Steve H. seems they ain’t with us anymore, dead or alive.

  60. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 1:36 pm said:

    NP: Sambuca and bazooka could’ve made it a Rubaiyat code four liner. Drat!

  61. Where can we view the results of Steve’s investigation? I’m dying to know who is the Q anon troll. I’ve been teased and rubbished on this site for about five years under my nom de plum.

  62. thedude747 on January 8, 2023 at 9:13 pm said:

    OK ill have a go,
    Prosper sold an Austin Cooper
    Wound the clock back with a looper
    Carl was there to help the duper
    Made a buck to boost his super.

    Later Prosper the old leech
    Dumped old Carl down on the beach
    Jestyn cover up his breech
    Never daring to impeach

  63. Curve: half of the current crop of pseudonyms actually seem to be courtesy of Team Steve, so I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for his J6 Commission final report.

  64. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 10:35 pm said:

    Curve: You’re not Robinson Crusoe. I don’t really dig the Q anon troll business though, guess i don’t support the individual’s First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Best I can suggest is to sit back and enjoy the ride; I am and I’m ‘Lovin’ it’.

  65. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 10:54 pm said:

    Peteb: Coles Vannamei prawns don’t sell so well in our markets (short shelf life). Besides I got no teeth to masturbate the little buggers with.

  66. Nice one Dude!

    So – I have a working theory that the code is an aide memoire for a Freemason’s charge (ie a passage of text to be remembered and recited whilst progressing through the Craft). It wasn’t my idea – I got it from a commenter back in August. I’d love to get access to historic member index cards!

    He’d tried to be a good mason
    Like his dad
    But blew everything on racin’
    Like a cad
    He’d tried to shoot through
    Our Carl was so blue
    Dorothy went from marriages to mirages
    And Carl, well Tamam Shud.

  67. John Sanders on January 8, 2023 at 11:54 pm said:

    thedue747: Always wondered what became of the ’48 Austin Cooper?. Guess it too must’ve been a dud, just like your pathetic attempt at humour……dud!

  68. thedude747 on January 9, 2023 at 8:17 am said:

    OH Colonel you old sad sack it was a bit of a gag and just poetic licence with the “Austin Cooper,” you know like “her name was magill, she called herself lil” sorry if you took it literally but it fit better you see,

    Not like your embarrassing blunder on the “Transcontinental “when you pulled yourself up to your full 5 ft 1 inch and sanctimoniously proclaimed that it never existed “never was still isn’t” said the colonlel , the dude was wrong !!! only to end up with egg all over your face when WIKI let you down you shoddy researcher you.

    Now lighten up and also can you send me a blueprint of your brain cos Im making a halfwit at home.

  69. thedude747: best to double all the numbers just to be sure.

  70. thedude747 on January 9, 2023 at 10:43 am said:

    Roger that NP

  71. John Sanders on January 9, 2023 at 11:11 am said:

    TheDue747: tell as many lies as you like, call yourself any name you want, the dud or the dill (rhymes with magill), doesn’t make your interstate grand theft auto deal any more realistic. My advice, stop jerking off and get back to work or forever be a dud.

  72. Tammy from Tuncurry on January 9, 2023 at 4:29 pm said:

    Steve H has asked me to make a final post on behalf of the team.

    With regards to Nick’s comment above “half of the current crop of pseudonyms actually seem to be courtesy of Team Steve”. 1) He should know, he’s got all the e-mail addresses for Christ’s sake. 2) Not true, although we did have a little bit of festive fun impersonating Bob Dylan & etc.

    Our findings re the trolls have as yet been released only to persons we can trust. Maybe you could ask Byron Deveson (the Steve McQueen of the Australian outback) for advice on that score. Or Ms Syvret-Jones (AnjiBaby), who once told BD on Bowes’ site that: “Lots about me is v.unique and I have been trying to “fit in” and be normal. As u may be able to figure I have given up trying to do that” and that “My IQ is off the charts and an outlier SMILES. At the moment my current loo reading is learning Latin one page at a time”. She also informed him that her half sister in the UK “has ‘delicate’ constitution and son has Aspergers. Looks exactly like my mother except for Jewish nose.”

    If you are desperate you could ask The Dude, Peter Bowes or Gordon Cramer or Mr Pelling. Sanders is in the clear.

    For further enlightenment go back to the ’60 MINUTES AND THE KNOWN SOMERTON MAN…’ thread from 24 November 2013 for example. A sample of quotes.

    “Samuel Zamiteas
    on November 29, 2013 at 9:07 am said:
    I clearly remember Byron Deveson making a reference on this forum about Clarice Beaumont and Thomas Harkness. I have seen how extensive Byron’s research is on forums. So if Byron is reading this please can you post the name of Clarice Beaumont’s mother.”

    “B Deveson
    on December 1, 2013 at 11:17 am said:
    Samuel, Clarice’s grand-father was Arthur Beaumont, butcher at Horsham, Victoria. She was born illegitimate. The tale is a bit convoluted and I am away from my records at present, but I will post the evidence in the next couple of days.”

    “Helen Foxton
    on December 3, 2013 at 6:31 am said:
    All false”

    “pete [bowes]
    on December 4, 2013 at 11:20 am said:
    BD: Prosper liked to be known as George, if you didn’t already know –”

    “daughter of Jestyn
    on December 24, 2013 at 1:13 am said:
    BD Prosper was known as George since a schoolboy.
    My parents were married in 1950. My mother changed her name in Perth to Thomson following the birth of my brother. give alot of the shit u write a rest”

    “Helen Foxton
    on December 29, 2013 at 8:36 am said:
    Kate [Thomson], leave off. Your mother was a crook – she should be exposed. Sad for you but true”

    “daughter of Jestyn
    on December 29, 2013 at 10:51 pm said:
    I know more than any of u will ever know
    So helen don’t tell me to leave off”

    “nickpelling
    on December 30, 2013 at 12:33 am said:
    Daughter of Jestyn:…
    You may indeed know more than anyone else here: but how can we translate that into a set of openly-known (and indisputable) facts that let us differentiate reasonable hypotheses from mere trollery? ”

    “nickpelling
    on December 30, 2013 at 12:58 am said:
    daughter of Jestyn: there are also plenty of trolls pretending to be people. 🙂”

    “RT
    on December 30, 2013 at 1:03 pm said:
    Go away Helen Foxton. Your not even a real person. I saw that there was a note that your emails bounce. Why is this? You are the fraud!”

    “nickpelling
    on December 30, 2013 at 1:11 pm said:
    RT: errm… the way it works here is that everyone is considered a probable ‘fraud’ until such time as they post a comment that genuinely moves our knowledge forward. But hardly anybody manages this!”

    “daughter of Jestyn
    on December 30, 2013 at 10:25 pm said:
    jessica was not married to SM
    helen u seem to have a strong personal dislike for my mother and called her a crook. Please take your own personal anger issues to a psychiatrist.l As if I would disclose any secrets on this site”

    “The dude
    on December 30, 2013 at 11:06 pm said:
    Helen as much as Nick has been critisised for letting the trolls run free on this site I actually think its the only site with genuine credibility. The bloggers on the other sites act more like trolls than the trolls do. They try to bully anyone who disagrees with their point of view and if that doesnt work they just delete them.
    Hardly genuine forums, more platforms for those individuals.
    Pete throws out his little teasers on the other sites and as someone said on this site hes all advertising, style over substance.”

    “The dude
    on January 1, 2014 at 3:22 am said:
    Lets just say the Troll .
    The problem with you “McMeowz” is that if anyone was interested in your music you would be too busy with a career to be Trolling around here.
    Perhaps this is an outlet for you to spew out all of the frustration of failure and rejection. If this is cathartic for you then Im glad for you.”

    “[Probably not] “The dude”
    on January 2, 2014 at 2:07 pm said:
    [Troll Probability: High]
    Sorry for naming you mcmeowz. As you can see. I’m not totally with it most of the time. I am Incoherent with the truth. I lie. And I falsify information because I’m vengeful , spiteful and a pure camel shmeckle.Z”

    “Diane
    on January 3, 2014 at 12:35 am said:
    Sorry to interrupt here – it’s one thing to use a nom-de-plume, but quite another to use someone else’s. It’s not fair to write unpleasant things using someone else’s name. If the gripe is yours, the name ought to be.”

    Plus ca change.

    A quote from Byron Deveson on the 20 August ‘CHARLES WEBB AT SWINBURNE TECHNICAL COLLEGE…’ thread.

    “I have long held the belief that family connections and the web (there is that word) of connections between families is far more important in all aspects of life than is generally recognised by the plebs. Sir Anthony Richard Wagner (Garter Principal King of Arms. Ahh! The redolent reek of medieval stuff. His first job was Portcullis Pursuivant of Arms in Ordinary (Ahh again) wrote a book detailing how family connections shaped the world. “Pedigree and Progress: Essays in the Genealogical Interpretation of History.””

    Our troll has excellent language skills and a very good knowledge of Australian history and politics. Hmm! Of course as Byron comments on the 28 December 2022 ‘DATING THE WEBBS’ FAMILY PHOTO… thread’ :

    “Lurch,
    I don’t think any of the trolls (there’s the Norwegians again!) could go two rounds with a revolving door.”

    Ouch!

    Steve sends his love and best wishes in the search for more clues.

  73. well troll or no troll. The Thomsons were dodgy and creepy af. Jessica Harkness AKA JESTYN AKA Jo comes across as weird. i mean giving the Rubaiyait to random men in hospitals. what is her back story any one cared to look into the elusive Mrs Thomson.? I know that Prosper had large family, I want them dissected (as in their past) as was done with Dorothy. Where is the juice

  74. thedude747 on January 9, 2023 at 10:11 pm said:

    Colonel take my advise when your IQ gets to 10 SELL !!!

  75. John Sanders on January 9, 2023 at 10:57 pm said:

    Guess I’ve been found not guilty of being TROLL numero uno, or knowing who is, which of itself would denote guilty by association and thereby complicit. This all clear assessment being based apparently on my “lack of language skills and a very good knowledge of Australian history and politics” All this this courtessy of Tammy Clone Curry acting on behalf of the dishonourable Steve H. Not sure whether to feel insulted, relieved or disappointed, bit of each I’d say.

  76. John Sanders on January 9, 2023 at 11:44 pm said:

    Dud4711: just a gentle reminder to you and others who may believe your lies.

    Wikipedia: The Trans-Australian Railway, opened in 1917, runs from Port Augusta in South Australia to Kalgoorlie in Western Australia, crossing the Nullabore Plain…..
    Anyone not Keane (your man) on Wiki facts, see both S.A. and WA newspapers, particularly the Kalgoorlie Miner who published time tables and gave passenger manifests over many years…I think, for those who still prefer your self serving misnomer (not Pat or Jo who have both posted on T.A.R), The Transcontinental just so happens to be a weekly newspaper (not a choo choo) published in Port Augusta since 1914 (Wiki)….Using it as a face saver might quell any desire you may have to fall on your Xiphos or Kopis…dud!

  77. John Sanders on January 10, 2023 at 1:10 am said:

    Em: truth be known, Jessica Thomson, was more likely to have been an innocent, non involved convenience used by commenters puting forward their own SM theories over many years. Far as I can tell she probably had no connection to the case, apart from having come forward in response to a press article on 22 July ’49 in which police called for info on the missing Rubaiyat. Apart from 27 & 28 inst. when her unwitting nominee Alf Boxall was interviewed and cleared of being SM, nothing more was heard of her until Sun press reporter Pat Burgess was given her details by Sapol and used her in a feature article. From then on Sister J. E. Thomson was singled as being fair game becoming ‘that woman’ and started the ball rolling for all and sundry eg., John Ruffles, Det. Feltus, Inside Story, Paul Lawson & co., and a ratpack of frenzied canniving armchair sloths, all fighting for a share of the Jestyn spoils, including daughter Kate. Should you wish to argue the toss or have proofs of her connection to the suspicious death case, please come forward with them and I’ll offer alternate views that may soften your ‘guilty as charged’ opinion of our tough old Jewess.

  78. Jilly from Jiggi on January 10, 2023 at 1:46 am said:

    Guvner, Steve aka Tammy- just to let you & anyone who gives a toss know for the record (the scratched vinyl one) that Ally & co is just me and my femo biddy friends having a joke & a poke at some of the blokes on here – especially when we reckon it’s on. We’re not into trolls; when it comes to Norwegians we don’t mind Rollo – from the Vikings TV series, not the Thomson family, jeez… No Peace for the Wicked as those twins sing on that scratched vinyl disc…

    PS Jiggi is pronounced Jig Eye…for you pommy bastards!

  79. Poppins on January 10, 2023 at 5:09 am said:

    The Essendon Gazettes I’ve been through so far are these dates, just speeding through looking for photos, not reading, if anyone else is looking too. There’s 30 bingo reels in the drawer, just haven’t picked the right number yet.
    10/1/1924 to 24/9/1925 (this is a really good one, halfway through it though)
    1/10/1925 to 28/7/1927
    4/7/1929 to 25/6/1931
    5/10/1933 to 30/1/1936
    6/2/1936 to 26/5/1938
    2/6/1938 to 20/8/1940
    1/7/1943 to 31/1/1946
    5/2/1948 to 24/11/1949
    2/9/1954 to 23/2/1956

  80. John Sanders .. re: Jessica the innocent, agreed.

  81. Go Poppins!

    I’m planning a CM related SLV reading room task too as soon as I have a moment…! I’ll let you know when I’m heading in.

    On another note, especially for Australians on here, Trove’s funding expires this year!!

    There is a campaign brewing for full funding. So far only the Greens have committed to full ongoing funding (via Senator Sarah Hanson Young). Please consider joining the Trove Users Facebook group for ongoing updates.

    Here is a link to a change.org campaign.

    https://www.change.org/p/fully-fund-trove/psf/promote_or_share

    Write to whoever might care!

    Nick – would you consider using your Australian media contacts to put forward an international perspective?

    Some of our best CM leads were found via Trove by brilliant Pat from Brazil!

  82. thedude747 on January 10, 2023 at 9:58 am said:

    For those of you playing at home the Colonel previously claimed (based on his wiki search) that there was never a train service between WA and SA known as

    “the Transcontinental”

    “never was” said the Colonel

    However as seen here the at the official site for the Indian pacific railroad the history page states that “on 10 15 am on the 25th of October 1917 theTranscontinental Express departed Kalgoorlie for Port Augusta.

    https://www.journeybeyondrail.com.au/indian-pacific/about-indian-pacific/

    The Colonel now says the Transcontinental was a newspaper and yours truly is a liar so I provide this link and leave it to you to decide who is the liar.

    See the problem here is that the Colonel’s sole purpose in life appears to be visiting porn sites taking the free tour and in between posting his little diatribes on this site.
    Its a sad life for an old Colonel but I like him I just feel that by being here he is depriving a village of an idiot.

  83. John Sanders on January 10, 2023 at 1:33 pm said:

    thedude747: So, Trans-Australia Railway is a myth, Jo and Pat are both mistaken, Kalgoorlie Miner daily hasn’t got a clue, Port Augusta Transcontinental rag couldn’t give a continental, Wikipedia sucks and colonal sanders can’t stop laughing at your temper tantrum….dud!

  84. Tilly from Timaru on January 10, 2023 at 2:34 pm said:

    As a supplement to Tammy’s post on behalf of Steve H yesterday he has asked me to make a couple of further points.

    Firstly he recently spotted a video on YouTube from 2010 in which Paul Lawson identified “Mrs Thomson” as the woman who viewed the bust. He had long been under the impression that her name hadn’t been officially revealed until 2013. Note the below comment: from CM 1 Oct 2013 ‘NEW SOMERTON MAN IDENTIFICATION CLAIM – THOMAS TORANCE KEANE…?’ thread:

    “nickpelling
    on October 3, 2013 at 9:13 pm said:
    Knox: the whole ‘Jestyn’ = ‘Jessica Harkness’ thing has been at the heart of nearly everything Derek Abbott and his students have been doing for the last few years.”

    Even though it’s been an open secret for quite some time now, I’d been delaying the day of posting it for some time…”

    Strange.

    https://youtu.be/u571rcZHs-I

    Note the uploader is “Foxglove48”.

    Secondly he would like to apologise to Nick for being a little terse in his last comment here He hadn’t fully realised the extent of the trolling that Mr P had had to put up with on this site until he looked back over some of the very earliest threads on CM. For example, back on the 14 Oct 2013 thread ‘TAMAM SHUD, CURIOUSER AND CURIOUSER…’ Mr P had written:

    “I recently got sent off on a chase by an anonymous commenter “Ayuverdica”, raking through the Australian archives for a certain ‘Thomas Lawrence Keane’ (here, here and here) as a possible identification claim of the Somerton Man. Having then looked at all the evidence, it was clear none of it quite seemed to stack up in the way the commenter claimed: but I decided to publish it anyway (with plenty of provisos).

    However, a few days later, what appears to be the same “Ayuverdica” left a comment on Pete Bowes’ blog:

    i just made up the thomas lawrence keane thing on the basis he was from charters towers and married to isabella beaumont. i have no evidence beyond that. the guy was cremated in march 26 1949. is it possible that it was a fake cremation? someone elses body? convenient huh

    Errm… thanks for that, thanks a lot. *sigh*

    What’s more, I’ve had a lot of commenty backchat here from “Minstrel Janet” (another nearly-nameless commenter) who has been leaving a long series of comments saying what a horrible liar Jestyn was, that Jestyn was up to her neck in two murders, etc, etc, though without ever giving any obvious reason why anyone should allege such a thing. I didn’t moderate out her comments, simply because I wanted to know what drove her to say such inflammatory things… but she now claims to have abandoned Cipher Mysteries and moved on to greener forums pastures. I wish her… as tolerant a reception from the next Tamam Shud forum she happens to descend upon. (Good luck, Pete, mate.)

    However, I have moderated out a string of other comments from a pair of anonymous commenters (one from New Zealand, one from Australia), who alleged a whole series of ghastly things about Jestyn and her family. Really, there seems to be something about the whole Tamam Shud case that brings out the worst in people – the most bigoted and intolerant, the quickest to condemn, the fastest jump to conclusions from scanty evidence imaginable, all of it at the same time. Why?”

    One might that “Katie Dee” is another long term troll. They all obviously post under numerous aliases including the names of politicians, businessmen, celebrities etc. Steve has two excellent female candidates for these trolls who are both on Facebook.

    Steve just wishes that Nick could have been more active in a) editing out the continued attack on Jestyn and Jews and b) backing up good honest commenters such as Poppins, Pat and Jo (the “bikini girls” in Brian Wilson’s wonderful new song) instead of allowing through the trolling against them without indicating whether he valued their original contributions at all or whether he did or didn’t give a damn whether they contributed here in future. He notes that most of the constructive commenters have now “left the building”.

  85. there has been rumoured that someone puts rocks on the sm grave over the years. Now Carl was not Jewish so any guesses.
    Mrs Jo Thomson as being regarded as a non integral part of the initial investigation is why this case hit a dead end.
    all paths lead back to her, she was quite good at fooling the investigators but she will always be a weirdo to me and certainly NOT innocent…. but this is an open police case so…

  86. Poppins on January 10, 2023 at 8:49 pm said:

    Thanks Jo, hope I find somethin’. Good luck with your searches at the SLV, I’ve just been going to the local library, which is entirely wonderful in what they’ve got there, just amazing and great staff helping out too. Whoa, Trove is too magnificent to lose, will do my bit to help out for sure, thanks for letting us know.

    Gladys’s obituary “citizens taking an active interest in the public life of Essendon were shocked to learn of the very sudden death at the weekend of Mrs L.W. Scott of Peterleigh Grove and wife of the former acting town clerk of the city. A recurrence of a heart trouble when she went to bed on Sunday evening developed more seriously in the early hours of the morning and Mrs Scott passed on.” Maybe Carl had the same condition, same outcome, would be worth looking into.

  87. Boney the Outback Detective on January 10, 2023 at 8:54 pm said:

    Just been looking back over the ‘I am Professor Derek Abbott, a researcher of the Taman Shud / Somerton Man mystery. AMA!’ on reddit/Unresolved mysteries from 8 years ago.

    Some highlights starting off with some comments about Jestyn, to follow up on Tammy and Tilly’s recent posts:

    “I found Jestyn’s real name with the help of a band of internet researchers in different states of Australia, and one was in Canada who had access to genealogical databases. We had access to our state libraries and electoral roll records and old phone books. Many people after me have done the same thing and have successfully found a “Sister J. E. Thomson” in the 1948 phone book. But they have the benefit of the fact that it’s now on the 60 Minutes documentary so they have a way to check they got it right. But how did I know I got it right in the early days? At first, I didn’t! When I first found it I had big doubts. I worried about whether “Sister” meant this is a nurse (in which case I’d nailed it) or if I’d got the wrong person and the “Sister” meant a nun. I had no idea. Even when I found out she wasn’t a nun, I decided I had to be very careful and find a way to verify I had the right person by checking with someone who actually met her in the 1940s. So I set about investigating the life of this person. I went to the town where she grew up and found out some local knowledge about her and managed to dig up a photo of her. I then took the photo back to Adelaide and visited Paul Lawson and gave him the photo without saying anything. He looked at the photo and exclaimed, “why, this is Mrs Thomson!” So I completed the loop and was then sure I had established the correct identity. There’s now absolutely no doubt since Gerry Feltus put photos of her descendents on his website. Another confirmation came from her friends. In 2002, Jestyn told some of them that she was the nurse in Somerton Case. The friends didn’t spill the beans until I interviewed them, as they had no idea what to do or where to go with such knowledge. I guess I removed their burden. Another confirmation is that samples of her handwriting exactly match her writing in the Alf Boxall book. There is more to the story of finding her name, but the above is a compressed description with just the highlights. The full story is very long!”

    “Like all of us, Jestyn was a person of contradictions. On one hand she had a Bohemian streak in her, and on the other liked the good things in life such as silver cutlery, nice houses etc (which isn’t very Bohemian). She was politically left, though people into the spy theory like to overstate this and portray her as a raving communist. In reality she was upwardly mobile and very far from real communism. Regarding her Bohemian streak, one of her friends reflected on that and told me that had she been born 20-30 yrs later, he could imagine her being a hippy in the 1960s. Many people I have interviewed describe her as an “odd” person. I’m told that in friendships she often blew hot and cold. Though one friend of hers told me the she hadn’t experienced that side of her. It seems she was different things to different people. We are all like that to some extent. I’m told she was well-spoken.”

    “Jestyn spent all her life trying to learn French and even that wasn’t all that good. I doubt she spoke Russian. Probably what she really meant is that she could understand a couple of words here or there. Even I can, and that doesn’t make me a spy for Putin 🙂 I asked a close friend of Jestyn about this, who said, “she simply did not have the discipline to learn a language like Russian.” He also pointed out that whenever he made a few pleasantries in French, she was evasive and never responded in French even though she was a Francophile and studied it for a long time.”

    NEXT with ref to Peter Bowes’ obsession over SM’s brain, Prof Abbott commented in another reply:

    “I have got Lawson to expand on this story. It actually wasn’t the brain Cleland was after. What Cleland asked Lawson to do was:

    a) Make a cast of the man’s unusually large hands b) Remove the skull and make a cast of the skull c) Switch the cast and the skull, to give Cleland the whole skull on his desk for future identification. The idea was to bury the body with the cast of the skull.

    However, when Lawson tried to remove the skull he was ordered by the Police to stop and was told the body had to be buried. Cleland was furious that the order hadn’t been carried out.

    But it appeared it still took about another 4 days for the body to have been buried, so it could have been done.”

    Bowes (Riamunk-1) replied:

    “Derek: That is good information on Professor Cleland, I knew he was about to travel to NG just before he died, the old fellow was intent on collecting cannibal recipes. I can imagine him with the skull on his desk. No doubt you wish you had it as well.”

    Why’s he still banging on about the brain then?

    A little later poor old Bowes threw his toys out the pram:

    “This is what confounds me about a researcher of your renowned talent and dedication, when something new is mooted you simply disagree with it and and move on. It’s as if you are worried that the structure of belief you have erected is in some danger of collapsing if you look at new information, or new ideas. This is most disappointing, and does little to energise anyone who might want to take part in this discussion with the view of engaging your talents and using your wealth of information, you have worked long and hard at this case. Nevertheless, it is your way of doing business, Derek, and I’ll have to bear with it.”

    Mind you, he was slapped down by a mod:

    “This was an AMA, which Professor Abbott has very, very graciously continued to respond to (far more than any AMA I have ever observed). However, your comments skirt the borders of disrespectful at times, and it seems to us that you have some particular axe to grind. To that end, I think Professor Abbott has given you enough time and energy, particularly given your website says things like:

    Abbott is in the sights, and he’s stationery.”

    GORDON Cramer then joined in the fun:

    “Fully understand the troll activity issue, things haven’t improved much if at all. I do worry that one site in particular seems to let them have free reign, I see that detracting from the case and it may put good people off submitting their ideas and thoughts. I realise that nothing can be done about it but I would really like to see the guy lift his game, he has some good people who contribute but I suspect they would contribute more if it was more comfortable for them. I digress.”

    Wonder which site he’s referring to?

    DEVESON then asked a question on behalf of an old CM friend:

    “Professor, Misca has some more questions for you. Thanks! I have a couple more questions I hope you might be able to answer. Do you have any idea how it is that Jessica “became” Jewish? Her immediate (and remote) family (apparently) is not Jewish, and her husband was not Jewish. I have a dear friend who converted to marry a Jewish man and it is not an easy process. One needs some very strong convictions to be able to do so. Did she convert? Was Robin Jewish? Is Katherine Jewish? Is there any light that you can shed on this matter??? Misca”

    Derek slapped Misca down:

    “I think we should respect the family’s privacy on this matter. It really has no bearing on the case and therefore none of our business.

    In general, if something doesn’t add toward identifying who SM is, then it is a distraction and not really an appropriate topic for this forum.”

    Quite right too! Didn’t know Misca was so fascinated by Jewishness. Hmm!

  88. I wasn’t going to weigh in, but I will.

    It was (for passengers) and still is (for freight) the Trans-Australian Railway.

    1917 Port Augusta to Kalgoorlie
    1937 Port Pirie to Kalgoorlie (now Coonamia to Kalgoorlie)

    In my Tony Barber voice, a survey of 24 respondents from Port Pirie (a question put out to the ‘Port Pirie History Photos and Random Stuff’ Facebook group), 10 remembered it as the East-West, 9 remembered it as the Transcontinental, 3 remembered it as the Trans-Australian Railway, 1 remembered Adelaide to Port Pirie leg as the East-West and Port Pirie to Kalgoorlie leg as the Transcontinental, and 1 saying it was called East-West up to a point before being called the Transcontinental. Surprisingly, it would appear that some of those respondents actually worked on those trains.

    Outside this, my grandparents referred to it as the East-West.

    The clincher for me is my father in-law who having driven all these trains over a 40 year career, refers to it by it’s shortened formal name, the TAR. So Trans-Australian Railway it is.

    I’m not sure any of this has to do with Gladys and Leslie.

  89. John Sanders on January 11, 2023 at 2:14 am said:

    Arthur Upfield: you’re now telling “us” of goings on from long ago, of which most SM commenters are no doubt well familiar so, to what end. If you intend to give us the whole background of the investigation in Dickensian episodes, then perhaps the original TS/SM thread would be more appropriate. This being in order to give those not so familiar a chance to get the good oil on the main confrontationists and confounders, rather than to post such episodes with more up to the minute conversations currently trending…ps: We all could learn a lot from Det. Boney’s forensic initiatives in Sands of Windee (based on the Murchison W.A. 30s murders).

  90. a nurse who liked death poetry and handed it out to her patients. nah not odd at all. Well Jess E Styn aka Jessie Harkness aka Jo Thomson who ever she was, one thing is for sure , she was a strange one

  91. John Sanders on January 11, 2023 at 2:43 am said:

    ….actually the Murchison murders (3) was based on Upfield’s Detetective Inspector Napoleon Bonaparte series novel. The killer, @Snowy Rowles having himself been present when the ‘perfect murder’ plot was hatched around a 1929 bush camp fire setting. He was hung in Perth Gaol maintaining his innocence.

  92. @ Poppins – both of the Essendon houses are still there and from a quick Google glance don’t look to have changed too much, with Peterleigh Grove being a newer late 40s/50s home and Coates Street a 20s Californian bungalow – both gorgeous homes. Please keep the Block away from them!! Have you thought about writing about the Scotts eg for the Moonee Valley Leader?

  93. John Sanders on January 11, 2023 at 8:54 am said:

    We all endured Pakies club farce at face value and I for one am yet to hear from someone who can confirm that any of the trio noted by Barry Barry Traish, namely George Marshall, Hellmut Hendon or Jessica Thomson nee Harkness (never Styn) had connections with the so called Bohemien (arty farty) cafe. Don’t know where the information came from although the guest book which can still be found on Derek Abbott’s fact site offers a hint. For those wanting to waste an hour trawling through the signatures therein I think you’ll find what I found, no trace.

  94. thedude747 on January 11, 2023 at 9:31 am said:

    @Lurch , love your work !!! Thats a very good summary.

    The name has evolved over many years , including all the mention monickers and I have to say having done the trip under the current banner “Indian Pacific ”
    4 times I can say its a f…g drag

  95. John Sanders on January 11, 2023 at 9:32 am said:

    Lurch: and I’m sure you’re quite correct in your final analysis. Wasn’t me what brought the sorry saga of Transcontinental v TAR to notice as can be found @ ‘My name is Charles’ thread and as to what end; I think it related to posts eminating from em and Jo on passenger manifests for Kalgoorlie and Eastern states on TAR, mid December last. Hopefully it’s now been finally put to bed, so thanks for your timely intervention.

  96. Calypso on January 11, 2023 at 10:46 am said:

    Em – as far as I know, Jessica Harkness did not hand out a Rubaiyat copy to anyone other than Alf Boxall. But I do agree it was rather forthcoming for Jessica to give Alf Boxall a copy of the Rubaiyat, even with a written note in it, at their second meeting (if I recall correctly). As he was rather handsome, she may have fancied him. Boxall on the other hand mentioned in the TV interview that he knew little of her; however it was adressed that she seemed to know a lot about him.
    Also, I would not categorise the Rubaiyat as deathpoetry. As part of the extensive Persian poetry that goes back thousands of years, the original Rubaiyat is a collection of 1200 tot 2000 poems. Most of the Rubaiyat poems are not about death, but instead about life and mortality. Furthermore, the Rubaiyat was extremely popular in the English-speaking world at the time to the extend that numerous bookclubs about it were formed: this is not a sign that these people were all into death and suicide. It’s a book that clearly should not be missing from the bookcase of a well-read person at the time. Also, CW’s particular Rubaiyat copy was a very rare version.

  97. the Rubaiyat was associated with several alleged suicides and associated deaths. Even though not considered per se a death poetry book it does touch on that subject. you say that it was very popular but apparently when found hardly anyone knew about it so it did have a cult status.
    Pakies club attracted all sorts but most importantly was frequented by Helmuth Hendon or Helmuth Konnig
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17474209?searchTerm=pakies%20%20hendon.

    His girlfriend at the time was Gwenneth Dorothy Graham who died of suspicious circumstances put down as suicide. She is turn was friend of Yosef Chaim Saul Ben Yisroel” who warned her about the nature of Mr Hendon. So they all knew each other and frequented Pakies. I suspect that Mr Hendon did indeed have something to do with the demise of Mr Marshall and subsequently because his gf was getting to close to the truth murdered her and set it up as a suicide.
    no it was we know that Jo Thomson converted to Judaism while living in Sydney. Both Mr Hendon and Mr Marshall were Jews
    if we can find a connection between Jessie Harkness and Mr Hendon and place him in Adelaide round the time of Carl Webb’s death then we have a new suspect and potentially a serial killer.

  98. So Yosef Chaim Saul Ben Yisroel aka George Marshall

  99. John Sanders

    This thread went off the rails long before my intervention, a process in which you had no little part to play yourself. What have prawns got to do with Gladys and Leslie? As you well know putting comments on old threads risks them being lost in the wilderness within a day or so.

    Not everyone reading these posts has wasted the last decade or so following this mystery, and most of those who have done appear to have forgotten what they have said in the past and therefore end up repeating themselves endlessly and going round in circles or consistently contradicting themselves – witness the woeful Tbt site. Either that or as in GC’s case they suddenly do a volte face and shift in a completely different direction with nary a glance back at all the manure they have left in their wake as they trot up and down the cul-de-sacs they have previously loitered in.

    As for yourself a glance back at some older threads would enlighten even the dimmest lights in the firmament that whilst at one time you spoke English you now only speak gibberish.

    A man with such middlebrow tastes as you would well know that Arthur Upfield’s detective was Bony, not Boney, as later spelt in the TV series in which a Kiwi, James Laurenson, “blacked up” to play the part of a part Aboriginal man. Laurenson ended up living not far from me in the rather charming town of Frome in Somerset where many superannuated old farts have resided, including rather surprisingly James Brown’s musical director and co-founder of funk Pee Wee Ellis. “Say It Loud…and Drink Up Thee Zyder”. Coincidentally Upfield wrote a posthumously published novel called ‘The Lake Frome Murder’. SA not Somerset however! And Rowles was hanged in Freo, not hung ,which is something you do to a pheasant old chap.

    You will also remember that Euro-disco outfit Boney M were named after the TV detective of whom producer Frank Farian was a huge fan. Don’t see you as Daddy Cool though brother.

    If I span out my research findings in Dickensian episodic dribs and drabs Our Mutual Friend Mr P might ban me from the forum. Not before time come to think of it. Are you The Artful Dodger or Scrooge? One day pinching other people’s findings such as Ann O’s stunning revelations about Nan Sparrow living on Moseley Street, the next keeping your miserly mitts on your own “discoveries” such as the Webbs all decamping to Werribee for a picnic at Drooping Cock or whichever place it was you triangulated from a sighting of a distant skyscraper on Collins Street and a puff of smoke from a faraway Trans-Australian Railway loco which had somehow ended up on the line to Williamstown. What happened to that spectacular lead?

    Personally I walked across the Nullarbor wearing full evening dress and carrying six suitcases full of the complete works of Wilkie Collins and my collection of unscratched Dick Haymes shellac 78s and vinyl 45s without even stopping for a refreshing bobby of Emu Bitter at the old Eucla Motel or a gander at the legendary Nullarbor Nymph of past renown.

    As my namesake Detective Boney once said (from memory) “Opals, how’s that for cake?”

  100. em

    Did you know the Thomsons personally?

    The only strange people are those who don’t read death poetry.

    They tend to be anti-Semites.

    Are you misca?

  101. thedude747 on January 11, 2023 at 9:10 pm said:

    oh no no no Colonel you don’t get off that easy as much as you wish you could. Lurch’s “intervention” acknowledges what you have tired in vain to deny.

    Colonel’s assertion was there was no Transcontinental, ”

    NEVER WAS still isn’t” Proclaimed the old Fart NEVER WAS!!!!

    The train has had a number of Monickers over the years and various forms the original being the,

    “Transcontinental express having departed for the first time from Kalgoorlie on the 25th of October at 10 15 am as clearly stated on the offical web site.

    Yes its been called a number of names Trans Australia , Indian Pacific etc but it most certainly WAS originally known as the TRANSCONTINENTAL EXPRESS

    Go to the links

    Sorry to the listners that the Colonels attempts to rescue his shattered reputation on this has become a bigger drag than the actual journey but the old fart just can’t say he was”wrrrrrrr….rrrrr rrrr”.

    You were WRONG!!!!!!!!! just own it old man and be better.

  102. Yes ofcourse the anti semite card would be thrown in as soon as anyone dares to mention Judaism. The connection i am trying to make is around that time Ms Harness converted to Judaism and why does anyone convert if not if they are in love,etc, etc. Could Ms Harkness aka Mrs Thomson have known Helmuth Hendon, could she have known George Marshall? We know both Helmuth Hendon and George Marshall knew each other and frequented the Pakie’s Club. given the circumstance of the death to be very similar to Carl Webbs, i am now highly suspicious that Helmuth Hendon mee Konig
    As for Mrs Thomson she was a weirdo , everyone who knew her remarked on her oddness which is not a bad thing, being odd i mean

  103. thedude747: you can’t honestly talk about the Colonel’s “shattered reputation” and expect me not to *snort* to within an inch of my life. Sadist.

  104. Poppins on January 11, 2023 at 9:37 pm said:

    Jo, I have to say that’s a brilliant idea re the Essendon Leader …. will see if there’s a story suggestion option, maybe they can get some photos to go with it 🙂
    Totally agree, those houses are perfectly charming, Peterleigh Grove remains pretty much untouched by bulldozers at this point, really lovely.

  105. thedude747 on January 11, 2023 at 10:10 pm said:

    I use the term VERY loosely NP.

    In regards to the discussion on Jess I have visited both her and Prospers final resting place in Centennial park and I have a copy of her death notice. She died In Hamilton and I can confirm that her Jewish faith is acknowledged in her notices and she is buried in the jewish section of the cemetery. I noted that several stones were left on her monument at the time I visited. There were also stones on the SM grave at the west terrace cemetery when I visited there a few years back.

    Just part of the Jess story but I still doubt she had any real involvement outside probably knowing who he was.

  106. John Sanders on January 11, 2023 at 10:59 pm said:

    Bony: you have an insight that even to someone of my own modest intuitive bent, now most unjustly, though timely “shat-on reputation” must not take too lightly. It might surprise you therefore, that I agree with mist of your comments addressed to me and about me, all but your self defeating omission of No. 105 from Moseley St., the Pigeon house in Glenelg. Keep up the fine work and make CM honest as it was prior to ‘hard time Charlie’ riding into to Dodge.

  107. poppins on January 11, 2023 at 11:31 pm said:

    And that’s game set and match to thedude747 and Lurch …. choo choo

  108. John Sanders on January 12, 2023 at 1:52 am said:

    Jo, em, Lurch, dud

    Seems that the posted Kalgoorlie arrival/departure times and passenger manifests re the ‘Trans-Australia Rail’ service as erroneously published per Kalgoorlie Miner circa. 1947, has now been ammended to read ‘TRANSCONTINENTAL EXPRESS’. This long overdue correction of fact has now been validated by our ever helpful Poppins whose …. choo choo after comment may be taken as a reference to either pre fifties steam locomotive railway trains or, a sticky licorice bar of that same era.

  109. Sir Henry Bolte on January 12, 2023 at 3:04 am said:

    I’m sorry em, every time we try to have the Soviet Scarlet Woman investigated someone chimes in with abuse and/or instigates some sort of witch hunt to reveal ‘the anti semite’. The fact is she did convert because she was taken up with a bunch of Soviet Jews including various of her lovers.. It’s no secret that the bulk of the Soviet enterprise was Jewish and therefore it’s a common point of interest for our investigations. Nonetheless this apparently British, apparently depressive individual who was – by his own admission – injected with psychotropics and nearly died in an (apparently) unrelated incident due to same depression seems totally opposed to this line of enquiry. I think we should ignore almost anything he has to say and leave him to his electro rock and – might I suggest – electro brain therapy.

    Jews were proportionately overrepresented in the RSDWP from the start. Apart from being active in the party’s Jewish faction, the Bund, which sought to mobilize the “Jewish street” by conducting propaganda activity in Yiddish, Jews comprised a significant proportion of the party’s “Russian” contingent. These acculturated Jews generally inclined toward the Mensheviks rather than the Bolsheviks, but even among the latter, there were not a few Jews. In early 1917, their numbers reached just under 1,000 out of a total of 23,600. Most important, they were highly overrepresented in the Bolshevik leadership. Significant figures included Iurii Kamenev, Maksim Litvinov, Karl Radek, Iakov Sverdlov, Leon Trotsky, and Grigorii Zinov’ev. This was so blatant that anti-Bolsheviks frequently associated the party with Jews in order to contaminate the party’s public image.

    At the party congress held in August 1917, a total of 29 out of 171 delegates were Jews, the second most represented ethnic group after the Russians; moreover, 6 of 17 Central Committee members were Jews.

  110. John Sanders on January 12, 2023 at 4:03 am said:

    …..In all fairness, to confused and/or thoroughly pissed American fans of this site, the name TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY nominally applies to a much earlier cross country rail linkage between the East and West coasts of the United States ‘From Sea to Shining Sea’. It was constructed during the 1860’s by indentured immigrant labour east of the Rockies and ostensibly bog Irish and Chinese coolies westward ho to the California shores. No doubting that it was of itself primarily responsible for the unlimited opportunities and resultant prosperity that fortune five hundred companies and their filthy rich owners have enjoyed ever since. PS: in American folk legend Paul Bunyan’s even bigger brother Cal S. constructed his share of the T.C.R. known as the Ireland, Jersulalem, Australian, (I shit you not Poopins & dud) Southern Michigan line. After two months of pre service testing, the seven hunert carriage train was travellin’ so fast that it arrived at it’s destination a good hour before it’s departure &c……, and a big choo choo choo to you two too.

  111. john sanders on January 12, 2023 at 6:42 am said:

    Bony: surely you can’t blame me for taking a breather on the picnic site (no names no pack-drills). Every time I open up on @ Wherearewe pleasure grounds I’m likely to get a shit canning by a coven of salivating, punt kicking trollettes. But no sweat it ain’t going away, just so long as my own doubtful popularity holds, or until our moderator calls it a day that would please some and leave others like us short of a quid. As for doubting that Leslie and his prawn peeler Gladys have any relevance to Peteb’s nice plate of boiled white leg shrimp (US) then think again sonny jim and don’t make unvarified Wikipedia assumptions ala Oscar Madison & dude the dud. The Scotts hailed from Maffra in Gippsland Victoria, only a short half head or so from arguably the finest prawn spawning, sandy bottomed lake (Wellington) in all of His/Her creation; So don’t ever try to come the uncooked Litopen V. with Captain crawdad and expect to get away with it … y’hear thar?

  112. Dr Fanny Reading on January 12, 2023 at 10:21 am said:

    @ Sir Henry Bolte

    Unsolicited review of paragraphs 2 & 3:

    Huh! Iz Nu?

  113. Lady Renouf (III) on January 12, 2023 at 11:10 am said:

    The transcontinental railway did not exist as a single service due the break of gauge. I don’t know how much clearer the Colonel has to make this. I don’t care what the retards in Perth or Adelaide called it. It was not possible to take a single train from Perth to the East Coast in ‘48.

    Options included Perth to Adelaide followed by:
    Adelaide to Peterborough and a gauge change followed by standard to Sydney, or;
    Adelaide to Melbourne followed by the Spirit of Progress to Albury with a standard gauge change and the Sydney train, later the Southern Aurora by which time our deceased’s bones were being leached into Adelaide sands.

    The dud, you are a certain cretin.

  114. Dame Zara Holt on January 12, 2023 at 11:23 am said:

    Steve and Annous – you’re as stupid as Ferguson CJ in her retarded judgment about George, Cardinal Pell. And to his immense credit and superior intellect, the dissenting JEWISH Weinberg J in the Victorian Court of Appeal (the one not appointed by the Covid loving hunchback of Spring Street) had the measure of Ferguson. This was reflected in the HCA judgment which eviscerated the old cow and her nameless friend 7-0. Hereafter may one refer to the Cardinal as a Catholic, mental Steve? Or is that racist because of his religious failings and alleged sexual abuse? Or should we not discuss it at all because reasons and hate speech?

    Jestyn’s involvement in this typical Adelaideian Old Boys’ Club bullshit will never be forgotten. Jestyn’s minions can do as they wish as can Prosper’s poxy devotees. Somerton died in their home and she washed and dressed him before he was dumped like yesterday’s beef on the beach.

  115. thedude747 on January 12, 2023 at 12:44 pm said:

    Thanks Lady R

    Could you do the WA Gov a solid and go to the link here then underline the paragraph about the Transcontinental Express on their official history page and ask them to adjust it. They must have got it all wrong, Tell em the Colonel sent ya!

    https://www.journeybeyondrail.com.au/indian-pacific/about-indian-pacific/

  116. John Sanders on January 12, 2023 at 1:12 pm said:

    Lady Susan: saddened to hear of your passing, even moreso in that Andrew got one over you finally. Your ex may not have mentioned it but, he came over to visit me in 1st Field Hospital early ’68 from memory, in between Malcolm F. and John ‘Grouse’ Gorton a month or so later. Only reason they came to see me was due to my being the only battle casualty, whereas most of the rest of the lads in the post surgical ward happened to be rear eschelon mofos recovering from having their poxed up foreskins removed. Easy to spot by cans of aerosol beside their bunks for keeping painful erections in check. Of course you’re right about the necessity for changing trains regularly on the way over from Perth, due as you suggest to rail gauge issues etc., So certainly no express service as claimed by some dud what never heard of the old Spirit of Progress for the last leg from Albury into Sydney.

  117. John Sanders

    Wonders never cease. Keep fighting the trollettes. Perhaps if we collaborated rather than bickered all the time we could defeat them. I do hope you ain’t posting garbage under assumed names though!

    I note that Peter B (Cousin Itt) has given up the ghost yet again. Betting now on as to when he will resume his so called search. I’ll offer 5/9 he’ll be back by Saturday.

    At least you are persona grata with the moderator here. It does seem like a closed shop. Unless you are Gordon Cramer, Peter Bowes, The Dude, Byron D, Misca, Milongal, Diane or one of the handful of other long-timers you hardly ever get a reply or acknowledgment of your findings. Note Bob Nowak’s identification of the Martins – with which you have some difference of opinion – which was only recognised after strongly worded protests on three separate occasions.

    Anyway Bob says to pass on the following message to you:

    “miłość i najlepsze życzenia.” https://youtu.be/gBw8Aj1Mwd4

  118. Steve H on January 12, 2023 at 1:35 pm said:

    Bring on the trolls and trollettes! I note that they have had their (non Jewish) noses put firmly out of joint by my and my team’s comments. Judging by Sir Henry Bolte’s bout of verbal diarrhoea at least somebody actually reads my posts. I’m flattered but not flattened. Don’t remember being injected with psychotropic drugs though. You have to bring these bastards out of the woodwork and let them show their true colours. They are a disgrace to Australia and indeed humanity and the world. I know who some of them are.

    They are also obsessed with reds under the bed. If Jews were “overrepresented” amongst the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks there may have been some little justification – have the trolls heard of the pogroms? Bozos! I suspect BD wrote this tripe but I can’t be certain.

    Michele Renouf is certainly a Holocaust denier – and ex-beauty queen/ballet dancer – who has “described Judaism as a “repugnant and hateful religion.”” (From Wikipedia)

    Finally we had the same inane commenter posting as “Zara Holt” (now Bate dummy!) – perhaps the troll should do a Harold and swim off to oblivion – who by this stage had so completely lost it and was so violently foaming at the mouth that they forgot all standards of logic, grammar and spelling. Who is Annous? What has Cardinal Pell got to do with the Somerton Man? They’ll be bringing in Cesare Borgia next.

    Witch hunt? They should know all about those. It’s only the least intelligent members of society who believe that there is a small group of individuals – Jews. Freemasons, the Illuminati, Knight’s Templar et al – pulling the strings in every social setting and scenario. Their feeble little brains simply can’t grasp the complexities, contradictions and contingencies that beset our politics and everyday lives so they have to look for scapegoats. I don’t have any obsession with anti-Semitism. No connections to Judaism whatsoever. It is the contributors to this site who have an obsession with Jews as a cabal or group of conspirators.

    From the IHRA definition of anti- Semitism:

    ““Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

    “To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples [I have selected 2] may serve as illustrations:”

    “Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.”

    Of course some folk, such as Lady Renouf, forget about or even deny the Holocaust. Unforgivable. These trolls are half-educated, self-absorbed, brain-shrivelled, monomaniacal, absurd little nonentities who would faint if they met me or any other civilized person in real life.

    You can’t sit on the fence about this sort of thing. You can’t remain silent. Only Jo has stood up to the plate. Where is everybody else?

  119. John Sanders on January 12, 2023 at 1:51 pm said:

    Bleeding moron, or do you prefer Lady Renouf’s cretin. How in hell’s name can a train travelling between Kalgoorlie and Port Augusta, 1553 km. be credited with the title Transcontinental Express, when from one side of Australia to the other be 4352 km. (Perth-Sydney) Think about it you bloody drongo and while your at it, best you give your technicolour journeybeyondrail.com, a right royal kick in the duds for making you look more of a fool than you own up to. By the by, getting back to the SM show, have you come up with any better ways to fit your sheep crutching tools and six lead pencils for auto theft useage, like Pete requested last time you’se had a chat.

  120. Steve H on January 12, 2023 at 2:50 pm said:

    Slight mix up over the Renoufs in my post above. Apologies to Lady Susan even though she is dead. Michele Renouf should piss off to Birobidjan herself. Only a rock nerd like myself would understand my calling all the Renoufs “Normans”, a la Roger Chapman and Family. Zara Bate is of course also deceased. And the Knight’s Templar are the Knights Templar.

    I need a better proof reader!

  121. Susan Sangster on January 12, 2023 at 2:52 pm said:

    By the way, wrong Lady Renouf, dickhead.

  122. Lady Rossiter on January 12, 2023 at 3:03 pm said:

    Colonel,

    As I said before – Ansett had the 747 ‘space ship’ and journey beyond rail and the shitty WA gov had the transcon…. One didn’t fly to space and one didn’t traverse a continent. But the pygmies persist.

  123. Steve H on January 12, 2023 at 3:09 pm said:

    Poppins

    Whilst my team were looking back over old comments here and elsewhere they alerted me to the fact that you and I had a brief confab over on Facebook back in August last year when I brought the Cipher Mysteries site to your attention and you replied “Oh wowee, thanks S…, heading there now” and a few hours later “I love that Cipher Mysteries site, it’s absolutely fabulous.” Well, I love your baseball cap!

    I think both you and Nick owe me a drink!

  124. John Sanders on January 12, 2023 at 4:20 pm said:

    Steve: yes of course you’re right about my convivial working relationship with the moderator cum administrator cum adjudicator cum master….. Mind you I don’t think for one minute that his nibs actually worships the ground that I hover over but, I’ve noted over time that he can be pleasant enough at times though obstinant and never one to admit silly mistakes which of course we are guilty of. In any case, whilst I doubt that I’d care to share a jug of my favourite Murphy’s with either of you, I have a feeling that two fairly well schooled and no doubt proper gents like your good selves could find some common ground over a pint of Guiness or two. Main problem we have which said moderator does not seem to have a handle on is the one degenerated by a degree gender bias hence a failure to communicate our mixed gender team. At one level there are the decrepit old fellas still wanting to pursue worthwhile leads that still show possibilities of producing colour, and then there is the ladies team who, being the more openly aggressive, push forward like a nest of white ants intent on destroying everything that might get in the way of their objective, which by the way they have no intention of sharing. You’re a smart fellow. I’m not in the same league but astute enough to know my limitations unlike some. So you start thinking about how best we might get a new momentum going and I’ll give it some thought too. It’d be great if we could put this baby to bed on our own terms, you and me, without creating waves nor upsetting the Amazons.

  125. Poppins on January 12, 2023 at 9:01 pm said:

    Good on ya Steve, I remember that exchange, you alerted me look at something new here, didn’t know you were Stephen though …. ah yes, baseball cap day, back in November, last year, blazing hot day in Sydney, h’mm, you’re quite the sleuth!

  126. Poppins on January 12, 2023 at 10:14 pm said:

    Ah, I get it, just reviewing recent posts here …. h’mm, okay, you win, Poppins is done. Good luck with all your research. you blokes. – umbrella up, and I’m off. I bid you good day.

  127. thedude747 on January 13, 2023 at 1:06 am said:

    Well I hope PB does re engage but time will tell. He’s got couple of screws loose the old hippy but he’s entraining.

    Problem for mine in this discussion is that it was tacking in an interesting direction when the focus was on Carl Webb, the reasons for his demise , his presence in SA and his connection to Mosley st All of this is yet to be determined and despite having a name the mystery remains largely in tact.

    There WERE some very interesting facts coming to light about his time at Bromby st, his clear connection through his brother to underworld figures, his apparent move to WA ect.

    Then what happens is a few pundits motivated by their perpetual spite for DA , decided to throw Carl under the bus. Couldn’t stand the thought that DA got the prize laying to waste the various implausible ideas about spy’s and so forth so we go back to la la land courtesy of GC and the like. Back into the abyss of conspiracy and coverups where the GC s of the world thrive.

    “his DNA got cross contaminated with another web” ‘the photo wasn’t Carl he’s not tall enough” “it was a different Charles Webb”

    And my personal favourite courtesy of Gordon Cramer “it was a merchant seaman who happened to be name CARL WEBB!!!! ”

    And so back to the black hole we go of cop coverups , spys and communists. What load of BS !!!

    Sorry Gordon and co but here’s a FACT. DA HANDED YOU YOUR ASSES He beat you !! but as we can see from the likes of the Colonel, these old blokes can’t handle the truth nor admit when they are wrong . They just don’t have bottle.

    FACT. SM is Carl Webb born 1905 died Nov 48 in Adelaide at either somerton or an unknown location, same guy in the family photos and the Swinburne photos. He was a divorced batchelor with a gambling problem who dodged his alimony and got violent with his ex and at some point shot through.

    The rest is all the ravings of a bunch of sore loosers.

    Any questions?

  128. @ Poppins et al

    I think part of the issue is that a few people have spent significant parts of their lives immersed in this case.

    We all have theories and beliefs; for most of them it will be pretty much impossible to ever find definitive contemporary evidence.

    I’m pursuing a couple more leads when I have time:

    – the Freemasons – like Nick (Oddfellows thread) and a commenter back in August, I believe that the code may be a mnemonic for a passage of text that needed to be memorised as part of progressing in the “the Craft”: https://ciphermysteries.com/2014/06/29/somerton-man-odd-fellow
    (currently getting some assistance with this one…)

    – Springvale Historical Society re a clearer copy of the 1930 Springvale Football Club Berwick District Premiership team, with all players named (and anything else they may have – eg photos of the bakery – the Society is open on Thursday afternoons)

    – the Victoria Police Gazette and photo supplements, 1944-46, re the baccarat scene, these are all hard copy documents, in storage at the State Library of Victoria.
    https://blogs.slv.vic.gov.au/family-matters/using-the-victorian-police-gazettes-to-research-your-ancestors/
    https://find.slv.vic.gov.au/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma9916044703607636&context=L&vid=61SLV_INST:SLV&lang=en&search_scope=slv_local&adaptor=Local%20Sear

    Other than this, no agenda and to be honest, I’m not really sure that I have time to pursue this one right now.

    I really hate misogyny and anti-Semitism so up for calling it out.

    Finally, here’s Cristy Webb from “The Australian Story” episode, “My Name is Charles”

    [27:51] But maybe eventually down the track, probably be a few unanswered questions that we just have to live with. The person that could supply all these answers that we all would like to know is dead. He’s taking it to the grave. In the end, there was no fairytale ending, but it’s been really heart-warming to learn that the family that may not have missed him when he went missing and when he died, are now reclaiming him.

    [28:20]) It’s really the start of the mystery, not the end. He died alone. He’d been buried for a long time in a cemetery without a name. Whether he’s buried again at Somerton or whether the family has other ideas, it’s just really nice that he’s got a name

  129. John Sanders on January 13, 2023 at 1:12 am said:

    Poops: I might have said it before but, another round of bidding thee adieu and bonne chance supported with ‘it’s so good or c’est si bon’ can be tolerated. You sure had yourself a fine old time at our expence, with a little help from your friends to throw a spanner in the works of our ill defined Webb plan. Derek will be none to pleased that you didn’t stick to the game plan with victory in sight but, ya can’t win em all besides, you’re sure to find other ways to be useful and in that regard we must remain vigilant…

  130. Hmm…is that the same Bohemian club associated with ominous Bohemian Grove there with all those redwoods in California and the famous Owl ritual? With tricky Dick and his humble Quaker family or some nonsense.

  131. Lady Cilanto on January 13, 2023 at 5:06 am said:

    I’m sorry Steve, you were correct. Whilst I had intended to refer to the former Susan Sangster as Lady Renouf (III) I had not realised that while Sir Frank was Susan’s third husband she was in fact his second wife. I’m sure you won’t disagree that in this instance if not others that I am the dickhead.

  132. Peter Davidson on January 13, 2023 at 5:07 am said:

    https://www.journeybeyondrail.com.au/indian-pacific/about-indian-pacific/
    The name of the train Indian Pacific didn’t exist until the 1970s.
    The last time I travelled the route in 1984 there were two passenger services, 1 from Adelaide called the transcontinental and a from Sydney called the Indian Pacific. As I travelled from Melbourne, I caught the transcontinental from Adelaide.
    Nowadays both services are called the Indian Pacific. Maybe there’s no longer two separate trains?

  133. John Sanders on January 13, 2023 at 9:38 am said:

    Peter Davidson: thanks for your timely intervention and for being able to confirm through an authoritive all colour linked source ‘journeybryondrail.com’ (rings a bell) that Transcontinental went on to become Indian Pacific. Truly great research, well worth waiting for, and to think both you and your dud mate had the good fortune to be aboard for part of the journey from sea to shining sea. Leaves our Trans-Australia Railway rattler for dead eh?

  134. John Sanders on January 13, 2023 at 9:52 am said:

    Yep, just one question dud. Does that bit of idle banter and name game trivia including Carl Webb, not Tom? Keane as your final pick for SM going to be your swan song?

  135. Kath from Knockrow on January 13, 2023 at 10:07 am said:

    @ The Dude 747 – best SitRep by far! And yes, we hope the old hippy hops back on the (key)board too.

    @ Peter Davidson – a quick question, how was Major Hunn connected to Will Sher?

  136. Calypso on January 13, 2023 at 11:19 am said:

    There are plenty of leads that still can be followed up on people, lots of work that can be done, before more results of the official forensic examination become available. It’s our common interest, so why not get to it?

    Like I mentioned in the Tamam shud thread, it ofcourse still needs to be established whether the Webb’s had relatives in Adelaide and a few suggestions for that were already made.

    Then there’s the number that was recently noticed on the top righthand side of the cryptic note: U1055. The number probably has to be interpreted within the same context as the rest of the note, so it will be difficult to solve seperately but not impossible. After all, a massive researchline based on the unnoticable X3239 has been explored for decades. Maybe the combination of the two numbers will give a better search result.

    Then there’s the lead that he probably took on a travelling job, such as that of a merchant sailor. I’m exploring that one at the moment, following up on the Tremiti interpretation and the name Liabo therein of eg sailor Henri O. Liabo, to see if Carl possibly served on the same ship as he did, along with a mr. R. Goabab, mr. Liao and mr. T. Bimpanet.
    If there are still records of it, it also needs to be checked if Carl registered at specific travellers’ pensions such as a sailors’ pension.

    On a side note, what role did Southern Cross airstrip play in the route between Perth and Adelaide?

  137. john sanders on January 13, 2023 at 11:39 am said:

    KfK: nice job of a typical R.A. bracketing fire mission. I’ll take a punt on Coorabell next with a fire for effect overshoot, followed by Eureka, it being a drop short, then laying in on target for Federal and PB’s country retreat…End of mission!!!!

  138. Boney Moroni. the Mormon Angel on January 13, 2023 at 12:20 pm said:

    Poppins

    My aversion to the “trollettes” is in connection with the person or persons (who may be male) who post here under various names, often of well known Australian figures, mainly female. I have admired the research that you, Pat, Jo and others have done. I think old Sanders wilfully misrepresented my comments as always.

    .John Sanders

    My sleuthing “skills” are all smoke and mirrors I’m afraid. A high-falutin’ word here, a well-turned phrase there, and hey presto! I think anything of note I might have discovered was achieved by the end of August last year, and with the exception of one or two findings, especially about Doff, in my opinion no one has really moved on since then. Don’t believe your humblebrag about your own abilities old bean. I have especially enjoyed your constant use of catachresis, anacoluthon, synchysis. anastrophe and solecism, less so your habit of repeatedly employing bdelygmia. bomphiologia, noema, eristic, dissoi logoi, tautologia and ignoratio elenchi.

    One could add your phallogocentrism as a negative trait. As a happily (?) married man and the father of daughters one might have thought you would have been a little more sympatico to our female contributors. As someone who is of a solitary bent with no siblings, children, wife or girlfriends past or present – and I’m a straight man – I don’t quite get the misogyny.

    I recently helped Brian Wilson (of Beach Boys fame) to compose some new lyrics for a song which detailed a trip for all the Somerton sleuths on CM to the City of Churches. I’m sure that Nick with all his billions could afford to sponsor a trip for us to have a team meeting in Adelaide where I will be drinking neither Murphy’s nor Guinness but Coopers Best Extra Stout which I first encountered back in 1979 at the Great Western Beer Festival at the Exhibition Centre down in the then unfashionable and ungentrified old Bristol Docks. Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of Sparkling Ale!

  139. Steve H on January 13, 2023 at 1:06 pm said:

    Nick

    I have heard on the grapevine that Elon Musk is currently considering making a hostile bid for Cipher Mysteries in a desperate attempt to shore up his waning business empire in the wake of the recent Twitter debacle. My advice is to take the money and run.

    Given your recent threnody which concluded with a tearful elegy for Signore Vialli I take it that you may be a Chelsea fan. (Insert loud snort here) Craven at the Cottage last night uh?

    Talking of Italians I heard on 5 Live this morning during a phone-in about superstitions (see today’s date) that Italians view the number 17 as unlucky, which is explained (for example) on ThoughtCo:

    “Some believe that this belief started in Ancient Rome because when the number 17 is viewed as the Roman numeral XVII, and then changed anagrammatically to VIXI, it reminds Italians of the Latin language phrase that translates to “I have lived,” which can be understood as “My life is over.”

    If Carl had been Carlo he might have had a slip reading “VIXI” in his fob pocket.

    To go back to football it was also mentioned on the phone-in that Laurent Blanc used to kiss the bald head of the French goalkeeper Fabien Barthez before matches in the 1998 World Cup. It must have worked as they won the trophy. Perhaps you could get your mate Peter Bowes to give you a smacker or two on the old cue ball and then maybe you’ll crack the Somerton mystery and, who knows, decipher the Voynich manuscript for good measure

    Tell Diane – sorry Phyllis – Cilento that I accept the apology and completely agree that he/she is a dickhead.

  140. David Morgan on January 13, 2023 at 7:11 pm said:

    @thedude747

    I agree with everything you wrote about Carl etc. except I am keeping the door open that Dorothy may have lied about Carl. Especially If we see the divorce affidavit of Lockyer about her abuse of him. Was she abusing him hiding the keys to his Rolls Royce or switching off his oxygen bottle? He may even say her first husband left her because…

    We know Dorothy was good at writing imaginative stories from her newspaper entry in the Christmas competition. We also know she had no contact with her family. She didn’t attend her sister’s wedding. We also know it was unlikely she was a pharmacist. It shows she had a problem with the truth.

  141. @ David – the newspaper story was written by Doff’s housemate – Jessie Campbell!

  142. thedude747 on January 13, 2023 at 10:41 pm said:

    David M
    Im open to that possibility re Doff. The Lockyer abuse thing is an issue.

  143. Smurfette on January 13, 2023 at 10:47 pm said:

    Nick I think I have sorted it out, you’ve got yourself a chatbot to fill up empty space. The thing needs a bit of tweaking still.

  144. Ghostly Steve: I liked Gianluca as a rhyme, nothing more. Brace yourself for Cipher Muskeries!

  145. Calypso on January 13, 2023 at 11:12 pm said:

    So. If there is, just theoretically speaking, a big breakthrough in the case, where do we report to?

  146. John Sanders on January 13, 2023 at 11:21 pm said:

    Hosty Nick: Cipher Manageries, especially it’s Gould League of Bird Lovers, young Carl Webb ‘First Photo’ thread mention be my personal favourite.

  147. Peter Davidson on January 14, 2023 at 2:49 am said:

    Kath.
    He was the father in law of Sonia Grace Hunn (Schlesinger), the daughter of Richard Emil Schlesinger, III (the Australian Tennis Player, know as Bob Schlesinger)
    The Schlesinger tree needs more work to establish the link between Sher and the pre-existent Schlesinger’s in Melbourne.
    However Hunn is linked ATM through his mother’s tree anyway,
    Major Sydney Arthur Hunn, OBE, MVO, MC, CdeG, MID is William Peter Sher (Schlesinger)’s aunt’s first cousin’s husband’s sister’s ex-husband’s aunt’s husband’s grandson’s wife’s great niece’s husband’s grandfather.
    He was shot in the head in Melbourne. Why he went to Melbourne is unknown as he lived in Perth. His death in 1942 becomes interesting when considering that Carl Webb, Tibor Káldor (Schön) and Erich Schlesinger (death record not found) appear to all have some connection to Peter Sher (Schlesinger) or his business.

    JS
    As for George Webb, I’ve been looking for a common ancestor with Carl Webb, but haven’t got further that George’s grandparents to confirm any theory that the hair samples tested by Abbott might belong to him. It’s probably another rabbit hole, unless living relatives of George Webb are tested. There’s someone else in Adelaide who’s looked at living relatives and I suppose if SA Pol do see reasonable cause to ask for DNA samples, they’ll do so.

    Regards
    Peter-Davidson

  148. John sanders on January 14, 2023 at 9:21 am said:

    Dud: according to Ciphermysteries Fredrick Webb was subjected to a noah biting a chunk of his arm off but there were self harm complications too. I wrote it all up a couple of months back to no great acclaim and I’m quite certain I recalled it from a previous post of mine pre Charlie right here years before.

  149. Smurfette: I think you’ll find that chatbots at least try to be readable, so what you’re seeing here must be early prototypes at best. :-/

  150. Calypso: I’d make the breakthrough first and then worry about it. 🙂

  151. John Sanders on January 14, 2023 at 11:04 am said:

    ….F. A. WEBB inquest 18 June 41, died 4th inst., cause of death drowning? aggravated by shark bite (extensive wounds right arm) and O.D. 2.8 gns. Veronal.
    WW 1 gassed?

  152. John Sanders on January 14, 2023 at 11:24 am said:

    …..Charles WEBB, Kapara conv. Hospital 1943 broken ankle. Cook/baker, barman, chaufer (not Carl).

  153. Preliminary Ciphermuskeries Review Team on January 15, 2023 at 12:10 am said:

    These are some of the key findings of our preliminary review of the Somerton Man threads:

    – we have run preliminary algorithms aimed at capturing the style and substance of the work of commenters Steve H and John Sanders, our initial work indicates that any further work on this would be futile;
    – when things get boring we will contrive to make them even more so by programming inane contributions from dead and forgotten members of the Australian Liberal Party and their spouses, especially those who were rather unspectacular even whilst alive;
    – Jo is getting stale and will be replaced forthwith by Grimes;
    – thank you contributor JS for your suggestion, however, we have declined any offers of assistance from former Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott – one Abbott is quite enough for this case;
    – we have created a team of chatbots aimed at assisting the work of the moderator who does not deserve to be replaced, these will be named after CPA (correction CWA) members of Northern Rivers towns, hamlets and truck stops, loosely following “Noice, unusual, noice” programming conventions; and
    – the Gould League Lover of Birds badges scheme will be formalised with the first badge being awarded to Furphy for his “young CW” photo find. We concur with commenter John Sanders, this has been a true highlight of recent times.

    We urge commenters to keep on keeping on, you never know who will make the next big breakthrough: team Ciphermysteries or its new Ciphermuskeries iteration; PB; our soon to be announced web-surfing Pete Bowesbot; Gordon Cramer; Derek Abbot; SAPOL or the Port Broughton Library, Bute branch!

    Yours

    Elon Gated-Muscrapp
    Taking one on behalf the Team

  154. @David, Doff might have exaggerated on the truth because she really wanted out on the divorce especially in light of her pending child birth. Lockyer might have also exaggerated on the truth as cruelty is grounds for divorce but even shouting or name calling can be classed as abuse. Doff is not the villain here just someone who had a shit life and i am pretty sure just wanted to get away from it all
    back to the real culprits i my eyes , the similarities between Georg Marshall and Carl Webb are too obvious to dismiss so are we looking for some one with the same mo or are we looking for a copycat
    i believe the later. i think the co conspirators remembered a staged suicide in Sydney and suggested the do the same, ie link the rubaiyat to the body. problem is after the tamam shud slip was planted on the body the book got lost in transportation. it would have been an open and shut case hadn’t that damn book been lost.

  155. thedude747 on January 15, 2023 at 5:15 am said:

    Also barbiturates in Freds gut apparently !!

    And a brother called Leonard CHARLES Webb

  156. John Sanders on January 15, 2023 at 5:30 am said:

    Clive: Re Fred Webb. Jolly well spotted mate, same with H.H Vale last week eh?
    If you want to go ahead with Fred’s WW1 record too, be my guest no sense on my doubling up. PS: didn’t get a brand on the noah by any chance did you; I’d say a Tiger ala Coogee aquarium, Anzac day ’35, dec. Jimmy Smith?. May as well feed that to the sharks as well, makes for added intrigue, what?

  157. John Sanders on January 15, 2023 at 8:59 am said:

    ….chemical anaysis had veronal as best bet in the done-to-death Fred Webb case; But yeah, thedud’s belated version of barbiturates (barbitol) is close to the mark and agrees with Doff’s tall story? about her man Carl vis a vis the 40 caps and 44 gals? of ether.

  158. John Sanders on January 15, 2023 at 10:49 am said:

    PeterBowes…..can’t find the earlier CM Fred Webb yarn on the ‘instrument maker’ thread where it’s supposed to be….never mind though, you’ll find a similar story to mine under your very own Barry Traish newspaper clips segment. Easy enough to spot too, it being the very first cab off the rank and all. NAA’s not up today for the
    WW1 brief service record but from memory y’man got himself gassed towards the end of the show and Alice said he never got ovrr it.

  159. Steve H on January 15, 2023 at 5:46 pm said:

    Yawn.

    From the post by Steve H on 10 August 2022 on the ‘CARL WEBB, “ELECTRICAL FITTER” AND “INSTRUMENT MAKER”…’ thread.

    “Also, it’s a strange coincidence that a body that mysteriously washed up at Somerton beach in 1941 was one Frederick Alexander WEBB (42), shopkeeper, of MOSELEY Street, Glenelg.”

    Nobody took up my suggestion about this coincidence. All I got was a snide response from bus timetable fanatic milongal – “mostly good points (and mostly mentioned here in the past)”. Maybe he/she would have been happier if I’d gone on Google Street Maps and counted the number of lampposts on Jetty Road.

    Another Moseley Street connection. KEEP UP FOLKS! Some us were onto this five months back. Well one of us was anyway.

    On 12 January on this thread my colleague Boney posted:

    “I note that Peter B (Cousin Itt) has given up the ghost yet again. Betting now on as to when he will resume his so called search. I’ll offer 5/9 he’ll be back by Saturday.”

    Bang on the nail! His ‘Meet All The Webbs’ post appeared on Tbt on Saturday 13 Jan. Our team is just too good to waste our time on this SM rubbish!

  160. Steve H on January 15, 2023 at 6:12 pm said:

    Preliminary Ciphermuskeries Review Team

    Very good!

    Unfortunately Grimes is not available to replace Jo ‘don’t know nothink’ the Crossing Sweeper. Charles Dickens can offer instead Gradgrind, Grewgious or Grimwig.

    Elon Musk tells me that Amber Heard may be willing to help if Nick agrees to smuggle her favourite Yorkie dog into Australia under his new periwig.

  161. Steve H: did you not know? One of Amber’s yorkies IS my new periwig, the other is my new merkin. It’s a premium service I offer to celebrities, smuggling their dogs either into Courtroom Number 13 or Queensland. And if you think 150K GBP a go is a bit much, what happened when she tried to do it without me, eh? That was a messy business.

  162. Steve H on January 15, 2023 at 8:22 pm said:

    Unlucky for some!

    Re my post above 13 Jan was Friday, not Saturday.

    Looking back at my “files” I had discovered the following info about Frederick A Webb.

    His father was Walter James Webb (1854 – 1928)
    His mother was Medora Azelia Clinch (1858 – 1953)

    Both born Perth, Australia, married on 26 July 1883 in Glenelg:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/210514686?searchTerm=%22walter%20james%20webb%22

    Naughty Walter possibly had an illegitimate daughter by 1883:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43605522?searchTerm=%22walter%20james%20webb%22

    Their children were:

    Olive Frances Louise Webb
    1884 – 1941
    Horace James Webb
    1885 – 1974
    Leonard Charles Webb
    1888 – Unknown
    Cassandra Helena Webb
    1889 – 1969
    Medora Azelia Webb
    1891 – 1975
    Fannie Edith Railton Webb
    1893 – 1969
    Walter James Webb
    1895 – 1916 (Killed in WW1 in France)
    Laura Mabel Webb
    1897 – Unknown
    Frederick Alexander Webb
    1899 – 1941
    Adeline Isabelle Webb
    1902 – 1983
    Laurence Malcolm Webb
    1905 – 1991

    All born Adelaide except Adeline (Talunga) and Laurence (Mannum)

    See below re Frederick Alexander (from The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA) Thu 26 Jun 1941:

    “NOTICE Is hereby given pursuant to the
    Trustee Act, 1936. that CREDITORS and
    OTHER PERSONS having CLAIMS AGAINST
    the ESTATE of FREDERICK ALEXANDER
    WEBB late of Moseley street. Glenelg, ln the
    State of South Australia. Storekeeper (for-
    merly an employee of EUDUNDA FARMERS’
    CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETY LIMITED de-
    ceased, who died at Glenelg aforesaid on the
    third day of June. 1941. and PROBATE of
    WHOSE WILL was granted to BAGOTS EXE-
    CUTOR AND TRUSTEE COMPANY UMITED
    of Shell House, 170 North terrace. Adelaide…”

  163. Steve H on January 15, 2023 at 8:45 pm said:

    Nick

    I thought you kept crabs in your merkin!

  164. Steve H: what I keep in my merkin is between me and Amber Heard. 😉

  165. Calypso on January 15, 2023 at 9:01 pm said:

    Seems there’s a lot of complaining that findings got lost or unnoticed in the massive amount of posts of the CM blog. I suggest you just plant your trophee at Familysearch, then everybody can see you were the first one to spot it.

  166. Calypso on January 15, 2023 at 9:12 pm said:

    And lets not forget, in searching for relatives, the Webb’s original family name was Weber.

  167. milongal on January 15, 2023 at 9:12 pm said:

    *yawn*

    /tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-465839

    /2022/07/31/carl-webb-dorothy-jean-robertsons-marriage-certificate#comment-466859

    But obviously we’re the ones not paying attention.

    (NB: I count trees, not lamp posts)

  168. milongal on January 15, 2023 at 9:16 pm said:

    oh, missed one…..at that time we weren’t in this WEBB web – but as per this comment, I think JS had mentioned it even earlier.

    misc-stuff#comment-454020

  169. Ciphermuskeries presents… on January 15, 2023 at 9:26 pm said:

    The first edition of my new blog, Crimes with Grimes Down Under, will be reviewing a selection of merkins and vintage maps of Tasmania.

    We will then present readers with the challenge of deciphering a Barnaby Joyce interview.

  170. John Sanders on January 15, 2023 at 10:07 pm said:

    Steve

    18th November ’83, missing number for Len Webb. Surprising that both you and thedud missed such an important detail, and Sat 13th blooper is as bad as my 31st November 1948 that one of the ladies jumped on then kept it up for all the other ‘Dorothy’ punters to wet their ‘safe guard’ pads over.

  171. milongal on January 15, 2023 at 10:12 pm said:

    @thedude I’ve often been called a raving (sore) loser so I’ll happily wait for SAPol before I agree that SM is *conclusively* Webb
    I’m certainly on the record as being a nay-sayer of GC’s fantasy, and I’m not necessarily subscribing to whatever lunacies he’s following now, but I think it’s *plausible* that there’s contamination at play, and I think it’s *plausible* that the results DA got from CF aren’t quite what they appear to be.

    Incidentally, while CF runs a ‘Cold Case Genealogy’ site, I note that her PhD is actually in Nuclear Physics and there’s little mention of her qualification in all things DNA. Sort of reminds me of Dr Wolmsley (who I’ve mentioned before) who was an environmentalist who owned/ran Warrawong Sanctuary. Everyone seemed to assume his title ‘Dr’ was because he was a vet – his qualification was actually Mathematics.
    Now of course just because your academic qualifications are elsewhere doesn’t mean you’re no good in another field, but I’ll reserve judgement for now.

  172. John Sanders on January 15, 2023 at 10:26 pm said:

    …..if one of us can come up with a street number for poor Fred, it could prove to be a game changer, and if that chould occur at Tbt, I have another half dozen or so Webbs ready to roll out, including one from Moseley St. (S.W) near to the Robins at 105 and Thomsons at 90A, with a 1948? death year for a clincher.

  173. @js where are you going with this?

  174. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 12:05 am said:

    em: right to the heart of the matter, its sometimes called the human factor!

  175. David Morgan on January 16, 2023 at 1:31 am said:

    @milongal

    There is also an assumption that Colleen does all the work – but I suspect as the company owner she simply scores the media goals. She seems to cover too many cases to be a 1-person company.

  176. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 2:48 am said:

    @em: while we’re at it, where are you going with Baghdadi J.H.S. Marshall @ Mashal?. Not intending to be curious but, I have some never before released info. on two biographical works (ndp) from 1940/41 and possibly another small item overlooked at the of inquest. I wasn’t prepared to access them due to a paywall, plus there being a general lack of CM interest in poor George by that late stage. I did happen to research his well known historical subjects at some length however.

  177. thedud747 on January 16, 2023 at 3:35 am said:

    @milongal The issues I raised relate specifically to individuals refusing to accept that Carl is the SM who are either not impartial or have an agenda.

    If people want to spend their valuable time chasing up potential DNA cross contamination , cop cover ups , spys , Russiians, merchant seamen etc well I guess its up to them.

    However for mine its done and dusted and I see time better spent focusing on what happened to Carl Webb after mid 47 who he was connected with , where he was earning a living etc.

    Whist what we have is not technically “conclusive” re Carl being SM Its overwhelmingly compelling IMHO.

    ThE evidence notwithstanding the DNA link includes the clear resemblance in photos particularly the Swinburne images, the striking resemblance to other family members particularly Roy , the dates where he appears to fall of the radar , as well as the Keane link coupled with the lack of any death notice. Its game over.

    There is some question over the Doff afidavit and fair enough there are two sides to every story especially in a break up and the Lockeyer stuff is troubling. However Im inclined to believe Doff and her characterisation as it matches circumstantially to Carls demise IMHO.

    I’ve always been inclined to believe that Carl was alone , single and probably traveling incognito or on business that wasn’t legit. Its partially why the spy theory gained legs on top of the “code” if it ever was one.

    See married guys traveling on legitimate business raise red flags when the disappear off the face of the earth. Relatives go looking wives go looking , kids go looking employers go looking cops get called.

    But when Doff describes an angry loner who was disengaged and we hear he was dodging his financial obligations don’t you think it all starts to make sense that a guy who was a single loner , shot through estranged from family maybe on the dodgy side can disappear and no questions get asked ?

  178. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 3:44 am said:

    PB: wouldn’t bother you at this critical stage of Tbt’s latest Webb investigation but, Fred Webb died on Tuesday 3/6/41. He made the news on 4/6 Wednedsay morning after being found at Somerton, an autopsy and SC tests being undertaken at WTM that afternoon. Next day 5/6 a Thursday, Fred’s funeral took place at West Terrace. Cemetery/crematorium, all confirmed by newspapers of the day and varified by later mention in the inquest coverage. All seems perfectly consistant with normal practice and nought to do with another bloke with possibly the same common surname who died seven years later, and at the same beach without even getting his feet wet, let alone shark bit..

  179. milongal on January 16, 2023 at 4:37 am said:

    @JS when I get a proper chance I’ll have a good look at S&M – there is an FA Webb but not in the Glenelg area (North East Rd, in what is now called Collinswood…reasonably affluent area in the inner NE that we’ve looked around for other reasons).
    NB: listed as ‘inspector’, so that’s more weight against Webb….

  180. milongal on January 16, 2023 at 4:42 am said:

    @JS can’t remember the context (I think it was Harkness or Thomson related) but I remember poking around Robe Tce and Medindie (and/or Walkerville)….if that rings are bell, that’s geographically very close to Collinswood

  181. Peter Davidson on January 16, 2023 at 5:24 am said:

    There’s a number of issues with the provenance of the hair’s supposedly coming from the cast of SM. There is also a number of issues with whether Carl Webb is the only person to whom the DNA test result could point to. Whether SA Police can find some DNA amongst the exhumed remains should put some of these issues to bed assuming that they can prove a proper chain of custody from the deceased body on the beach to interment in the Cemetery plot, and discount anu contamination issues.
    Whilst questions of “who”, get resolved, we are still down some issues with “when” and “how”. Even being handed a name hadn’t resolved either of these, and we’re no closer as to answer “why” that we were in 1948, even with a name.
    Being given the name Carl Webb by Professor Abbott has not provided any satisfactory clues as to how, when and why he died on Somerton Beach on 1/12/1948.
    Indeed Carl Webb’s history only confuses us more because at least 2 other deaths/ suicides and 1 disappearance can be vicariously linked to someone that Carl was employed by. Peter Sher.
    So hopefully soon, SA Police can produce DNA results so we know whether we should still be giving consideration to Carl Webb or looking for someone else.

  182. Shark vomits tattooed arm linked to underworld slaying! on January 16, 2023 at 6:28 am said:

    If you want the shark story, you’ll need to read on!

    A bit of reportage from Jo’s phone call with Robyn from the Springvale Historical Society:

    – Robyn looked through photos and records relating to the Springvale Football Club a few months ago and didn’t find anything but will cross check re my photo of the SFC 1930 Berwick District Premiership team (there is a tall, unnamed, fair-haired player in the back row);

    – Robyn’s father came to the Springvale area to work for Kelly and Lewis, engineers and pump makers. She said that times were very lean in the 1930s, prior to WWII and many of the workers had other side businesses to make ends meet as employment could be sporadic. Her father and many of the other men had small market gardens. My theory is that Charlie worked for both K & L and the bakery at different times and that K and L is where he leant to be an electrical fitter.

    – The Historical Society holds employee records for Kelly and Lewis! I have a hunch that Charlie is in there somewhere! When Robyn manages to find these we will check for Charles/Carl Webb.

    – There may be a photograph of the bakery as the Council had photographs taken along Springvale Road at some stage (probably 1960s prior to road widening works), these were passed to the Historical Society..

    None of this will happen quickly as the Society is currently moving premises and has been for quite a while – its collection is currently across two sites and some of it will be moved to Dandenong.

    Interestingly, Robyn also told me that there was a two up school in the scrub land near Sandown Park Racecourse. It was popular with some of the Kelly and Lewis employees who would use the track near the bakery (see Lurch’s photograph on an earlier thread). A man once came looking for Robyn’s father when he was at the two up school. Apparently the “cockies” ie cockatoos/lookouts were very skilled and by the time the man reached the supposed location of the there was no sign of anyone… !!

    I am also trying to establish whether or not Charlie was a sometime member of the Freemasons (as Richard Augustus Webb was) and have a contact assisting with this. (I’m aware that there are different interpretations and theories re the code; my preferred theory at the moment is that it relates to memorising a piece of text for progressing through the Freemason’s Craft)

    It may be some time before I am able to visit the State Library of Victoria to search the Victorian Police Gazette re the baccarat scene and any mentions of people of interest. If there is anyone in Melbourne who can do this before I am able to do so I can provide details – you basically need to phone to request that the Gazette and photo supplements are brought out of off site storage. It may also be worth chasing a copy of the WA Police Gazette for 1948 (apparently the WA State Library copy is missing…).

    OK, the shark story:

    All the talk of poor Fred Webb and his shark bitten arm reminds me of the 1935 Coogee Bay Aquarium Mystery – where the aquarium’s resident shark vomited up a tattooed arm that was traced to an underworld killing!

    https://www.iflscience.com/a-shark-vomiting-up-a-tattooed-arm-sparked-australias-most-bizarre-murder-case-59752

  183. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 8:50 am said:

    ……and here’s me thinking initially that the Marcus Clarke yarn was to do with what Jo found out about the Webbs vis. Frederick, Geordie & Carl (SFA) in the Springvale Histerical Society’s garden shed. As for your ‘Shark Arm’ murder case attachment, I guess it be the same one I introduced just yesterday at 5.30 am so I dare say most of your many followers will have read it by now or, if they hadn’t known of the case already..like most fair dinkum awestruckenfailians.

  184. More on the tattooed arm:

    (Trigger warning, this version has pictures of both the shark and the arm…)

    https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/how-severed-arm-regurgitated-by-tiger-shark-led-to-murder-mystery/news-story/183aa1246bdaa589cbc4b28965c04c1a?amp

    Charlie would doubtlessly be familiar with this 1935 story!

  185. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 9:13 am said:

    milongal: yeah F.A. is all I could come with too, although Fred himself gave Reid Street Glenelg as where he had lived (Seacombe gardens?) and the newspapers insisted he was new to Moseley St..anyway who gives a rats arse, PB is playing games after return from his latest 24 hr. retirement…ps. as for Menindie and the Thomsons, that’s where they lived on return from their holiday to UK in ’62?

  186. Les Patterson on January 16, 2023 at 10:39 am said:

    Ciphermuskeries

    Those murkin inspired vintage maps of old Tasmania; I’d guess they include Great Lake as opposed to the much larger man made Lake Pedder right?

  187. Steve H on January 16, 2023 at 11:43 am said:

    Nick

    As a general point – I’m not particularly bothered by this Fred Webb distraction – is there any way I can locate the posts that milongal mentions by a number ref – eg tamam-shud-somerton-man#comment-465839 – or is that just his/her nerdy personal filing number for every post ever made on CM?

    If I ever make a reference to an earlier finding I always give a quote, a date/thread reference or a link instead of making a snarky comment such as “But obviously we’re the ones not paying attention.” How the hell can one locate earlier comments if there is no way to search for them thematically? JS and milongal PLEASE TAKE NOTE!

  188. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 11:49 am said:

    Thedud747: was that really you at 3.35am? Apropos your latest on Tbt saying that ‘others’ thought the nurse was about to faint when Paul showed her the bust. In fact it was only he who ever made that claim, 60 years later on Utube in his mid nineties. Back in 78 in his TV interview with Stuart Littlemore, he never made any mention of it, in fact he claims that people he showed the bust to were couples over forty. His Mrs. “Thompson” ie. Jessica Thomson? was 27 in ’49. Comment?

  189. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 12:11 pm said:

    ….As some may recall there was a Mrs. Elizabeth Thompson nee Satoli who identified the body as being that of her former boarder from Morgan, wood cutter George ‘Geordy’ Walsh. So who knows?, perhaps Paul was of the mistaken belief it was she. Wonder why Clive or GC never thought to ask him in one of their many alleged subsequent interviews.

  190. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 12:47 pm said:

    Good one Jo, now if you don’t mind can we get back on thread for a change and perhaps get an update on Robyn’s latest efforts with the Springvale H.S. mob.

  191. Steve H on January 16, 2023 at 12:56 pm said:

    If anyone is still interested in the Moseley Street Mafia investigation that my colleague Ann O instigated, and JS belatedly joined in, the names and addresses of the street’s residents can easily be found in the Sands and McDougall’s Directories as I am sure veterans of the SM mystery will attest.

    For 1949 see page 223 for the Glenelg end and page 228 for the New Glenelg end (including 90a – Thompson, P. McC. (sic) – in 1948 A. Ross was listed at this address).

    https://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/almanacsanddirectories/1949sandsandmc/223/#zoom=z

    https://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/almanacsanddirectories/1949sandsandmc/228/#zoom=z

    If those links don’t work Google ‘Search directories online 1900-1973 – State Library of South Australia’.

    Interestingly in the 1949 Directory Dr D Hendrickson (possible finder of the Rubaiyat) lived at 51 and H Dunstan and a Mrs EE Freeman (related to Chemist Freeman?) lived at 47. I have already mentioned H (Howard) Dunstan and his wife Ada and their nephew future SA premier Don. A couple of quotes from earlier posts (see below for details):

    “Howard Dunstan was Don’s uncle: “In 1940, Don commenced three years at St Peter’s College in Adelaide, living for the first two years with his uncle and aunt, Howard and Ada Dunstan. In his final year at St Peter’s, Don boarded together with his sister, Beth, who had been evacuated from Fiji.” From the Don Dunstan Foundation website.”

    “Mrs Howard Dunstan was a very important figure in Adelaide society: “Although Mrs. Howard Dunstan decided to have a long rest when she relinquished the arduous duties of Lady Mayoress of Adelaide, which she performed while her father, the late Sir Jonathan Cain, was in office, she bad put herself whole-heartedly into helping others, that it was impossible to let go her interests in so
    many charities. Her official duties may be no more, but her days are taken up
    with these interests, which still continue to develop. As a member of the board of the Children’s Hospital, she has a paramount thought for the small sick inmates…Mrs. Dunstan is also a member of the Red Cross Society and a vice
    president of the auxiliary of the Royal Adelaide Hospital.” From the Adelaide News 25 May 1940.”

    Dr John Barkly Bennett’s fiancee Nan Sparrow lived with her parents at 105, dead opposite 90a. The family were friends with the Dunstans – eg from one of my earlier posts, quoting the WikiTree entry for Cyril Sparrow, Nan’s father:

    “Don Dunstan came or Nan visited him. He was always skating around. And lived quite nearby in Glenelg a block away.”

    For earlier posts see 5 August 2022 thread ‘ON CARL WEBB, TRUTH & BEAUTY…’ from Ann O on August 28, 2022 at 4:20 pm through to John Sanders on August 29, 2022 at 11:10 pm.

    Note that JS thought Nan was Nancy when in fact she was Nadine and that on 25 August he had posted in the same thread “We’re told that he [Dr Bennett] married a nurse (McIntyre???) and they had two or three billy lids”! Dope!

  192. Ana em on January 16, 2023 at 1:28 pm said:

    just intrigued by the similarities between the GM and the CW cases also i am not sure that the GM was a a suicide. i have my suspicion that GM stumbled across something at work or other and was murdered by HH.

  193. Calypso on January 16, 2023 at 1:33 pm said:

    On contemplating the wild stories of possible contamination of the SM DNA sample, I think people should first be aware of the following:

    If scientists want to publish their results in the scientific literature (which they need to), they always need to proof during the very critical peer review process, that their samples were not contaminated. The peer review process is meticulously done by a sort of jury consisting of peers highly knowledgable in the matter who are provided with all documents pertaining to the study. This includes all procedures, measurements, calculations, and the manuscript itself. Most of the public on the SM forums are neither specialists nor do they have access to all documents of the study of DA’s team.

    To make sure samples are not and will not be contaminated, strict work procedures need to be followed:
    During sample collection, transportation and handling in the lab these procedures for instance involve protective clothing, clean chemicals and protective lab equipment.
    The samples preferably are taken from a location that has not been into contact with the outside world, such as the inside of a tooth or the root of a hair that is still imbedded in the skin.
    The measurement is to be repeated multiple times (duplo or triplo) to show the result is reproducable. If the DNA of 50 hair roots is measured seperately, it will be noticed if one or two roots are from another person.
    Negative and positive control samples need to be included in the measurements. A negative control is for instance a sample tube that gets processed and measured in the same manner as and together with all other samples, just without adding a sample. There should be nothing measured in the negative control, or the whole study will be declared invalid. A positive control is a sample tube where a known sample has been added to that should always give a result, to proof that the measuring method has worked.

    All in all, the results of a study need to be reproducable. The genetic study of the SM is performed seperately by the Australian authorities, which will make clear whether the results of DA’s team are indeed reproducable.
    In the case of the SM, DA’s team claims to have found a DNA match to both CW’s mother’s and father’s side of the family. This would automatically rule out any other person that is not one of the children of Richard A. Webb and Eliza A. Morris. I assume they want to publish their results in the scientific literature.

    Milongal – DA collaborated within a team, not CF or himself alone. There was a (Adelaide?) geneticist Dr. in the team who did the DNA work.

  194. Steve H on January 16, 2023 at 2:00 pm said:

    Just to assuage JS and milongal.

    See their discussion in 2018 on the 8 October 2018 thread ‘AT LAST (TAKE #2): “RONALD FRANCIS” WAS CHEMIST JOHN FREEMAN OF 24A JETTY ROAD, GLENELG…’ thread, esp from milongal on October 10, 2018 at 10:15 am to john sanders on October 11, 2018 at 7:12 am. Seems Mrs EE Freeman may have been Effie, and Dr Dwyer also lived just up Moseley Street according to JS. Shame they didn’t notice the link with the powerful Dunstans.

    Had to laugh when I saw that ex-bus driver ‘Eeyore’ milongal was soon back on his/her favourite topic of bus routes. If you put all his/her posts on the subject together you’d have a veritable PhD thesis. ‘Piglet’ JS even mentions the Ndrangheta in Melbourne in one post if you want further “Mafia” links. ‘Tigger’ P Bowes “contributes” his usual inane, ridickerus interventions.

  195. Steve H on January 16, 2023 at 2:39 pm said:

    Actually folks EE Freeman was “Em”: See Observer (Adelaide) Thu 12 Jun 1930:

    “FREEMAN.—On the 7th June, at 47 Moseley
    street, Glenelg, Alfred Cornelius, beloved husband
    of Em. E. Freeman, aged 61 years. Beloved
    by all.”

    Also at 47 lived at one time “COWAN (nee Reece).—On the 3rd August,
    at Glenelg Private Hospital, to R. J. and Mrs.
    Cowan, 47 Moseley street, Glenelg—a daugh-
    ter.” (From The Advertiser (Adelaide) Wed 8 Aug 1934)

    From Anemptyglass Wikia :”Robert James Cowan: A deputy government chemical analyst who’s findings agreed with Dwyer’s that the cause of death was unnatural. He also tested samples of the body organs for presence of poison and found none.”

    I think we can now say without doubt that there was a Moseley Street Mafia. Over to you folks!

  196. Calypso on January 16, 2023 at 2:50 pm said:

    Jo – What an incredible and bizarre story! Though I feel sorry for the poor shark, unexpectedly puking out a tattood arm in plain sight is both bizarre and humorous in a way.

  197. Steve H on January 16, 2023 at 3:41 pm said:

    Final post on Moseley Street for today.

    I can’t find a link between “Barb” Dwyer and the street. Perhaps JS knows better.

    One M Dwyer lived at no 30.

    This was Michael Stanislaus (From Chronicle (Adelaide) Thu 22 Jun 1944):

    “DWYER. — On June 18, at his resi
    dence, 30 Moseley street, Glenelg,
    Michael Stanislaus, beloved husband of
    Sara Cecilia Dwyer, and second son of
    the late Michael and Johanna Dwyer. of
    Marion, aged 77 years. R.I.P.”

    Michael’s father was Michael Dwyer (1835 – 1889) and his mother was Johanna Kearney (1837 – 1911) both born in Ireland.

    From Virtual War Memorial Australia:

    “John Matthew (Barb) Dwyer was born, on 10th December 1905, in Mount Gambier, South Australia. He was the son of Martin Ambrose Dwyer and Agnes Maud, nee Engelbrecht. He had three siblings Brian, Desmond and Mary and went to school at Sacred Heart College, in Brighton, Adelaide. He studied medicine at the University of Adelaide graduating MB BS in 1928…”

    “Dwyer enlisted into 2/AIF at the rank of major, on 16th May 1940, while he was Deputy Assistant Director of Hygiene (DADAH) at 4MD, Keswick. He was living at 105 Port Road, Hindmarsh, SA, at the time.”

  198. The late Lobby Loyde on January 16, 2023 at 4:40 pm said:

    Oi there fellow SM Sharpies!

    Wot’s all this bovver and aggro about then?

    These milongal and John Sanders blokes must be dirty mods! Give ’em the slippers in the head.

    Don’t mess with our Connys you jackasses! Don’t step on our chisel-toed shoes!
    Don’t pull our rats’ tails! Pair of oiks.

    See youse two down the beach at Frankie.

    That Steve H has got the proper idea. He ain’t no yobbo. Boy does actual research.

    Has anybody seen my Coloured Balls?

  199. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on January 16, 2023 at 4:48 pm said:

    John S.
    In the text of 4 verses. It is also written. (delete T.)
    So I deleted the letters T.
    And read from right to left.
    Curs. Zab. Arthura. Pan. Hyne. Psá. i 27. Jí . Jac. Psala. Cíp.

    Transcription into English:

    Curs (cursed) Kills. Arthur. Mr. dies. He writes. I am 27 years old. How. I am writing. he died

    apparently those few words = Curse.

  200. thedude747 on January 16, 2023 at 4:52 pm said:

    Colonel are you referring to Lawsons 70s interview where he responds “by the way you’re on tender ground” and clearly backs off ? . If your entire point is that he specifically doesn’t detail her reaction in that particular interview despite obviously holding back information (despite having later explained himself and being well on record later as to his opinion). then bravo Colonel !!!!! great pick up !

    keep clutching at those straws old boy and don’t forget to take your medication.

  201. Steve H ….interesting

  202. Calypso on January 16, 2023 at 6:09 pm said:

    Jo – all plausible theories need to be checked out, way to go!

    Re the freemasonry theory, besides lines there are also some super-supertiny artifacts noticable on the cryptic note that could be interpreted as symbols, such as an oval with a scissor-like cross in it, a circle with a cross in it, a cornucopia kind of impression, a clear accolade kind of symbol, etc.
    I have considered the option that they might have been alchemy symbols made by someone marking (gold/copper/mineral) deposits on a map, where the noticable lines could represent some geographical features. But again, it doesn’t prove a thing. The artifacts are supertiny and therefore probably belong in the “illusion”, “speculation” or “doodle” box.

  203. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 9:06 pm said:

    thedud747….actually no dud, you’re not even close. I meant what I said, as I usually do. Suggest you go back and re-read the transcript, this time with your jaundiced eyes open, or better still get Clive to check it out then he can come over and say his piece without you having to spell check your own post name.

  204. Josef Zlatoděj Prof. on January 16, 2023 at 9:11 pm said:

    John Sanders.
    That piece of paper. From the book Rubijat. It was written by Jestyn (Jo). Split the word – Jesstyn. And delete the letter T. The word = Jessyn will appear.

    J.e.s – S.y.n.
    (phonetically – J.e.s. = Yes).
    (the word S.y.n. means in the English language). Son.)
    Yes son.
    That’s why she gave ” JO ” the Rubiat book. To the one who brought her to another state.
    And that was Artur Boxal.

    That she knew the Slavic language. You can tell by the fact that she let herself be called =J.o.
    ( JO stands for JES (JES = YES).

    Jesstyn gave him the book. In Which Was = The Curse. She cursed Boxal. Because he made her a child. And then he didn’t want her anymore.

    Why the piece of cursed paper was found with the dead man on the beach is a mystery.

  205. @ JS – yes you did mention the Coogee Aquarium shark first, sorry I didn’t spot all 4m of it, tucked away in a sting of your mystic prose! You get the Gould story telling badge on this one!

    I thought Robyn’s mention of the Springvale/Sandown Park two up school with its skilled cockatoos was a very interesting one given later speculations about nit pickers and baccarat schools… I can well imagine Charlie & Roy becoming involved in this… I’m also going to ask Robyn if she thinks the family pic was taken at Sandown.

    @ Calypso- thank you for your encouragement! I think your U1055 find could well be the much discussed second phone number!

    @ Lobby Lloyde – I’ll send your regards to your godson, he’s doing well! Nice to see you popping over from TbT! It’s also good to see “the old hippy” back on the board!

    @ Peter Davidson- the family connection between Major Stanley Hunn & Will Sher doesn’t seem to be a close one. Hunn died in 1942 from a gun shot wound to the head, regarded as suicide, whilst sitting on a bench in the Botanical Gardens. This is in the vicinity of the various mansions used for WW II planning and espionage (Domain Road, Acland Street). Very sad, he had served in WWI with distinction. Eric Schlesinger, a Dunera detainee and another distant relation, also later lived near the Botanical Gardens, on Punt Road, near the bottom of Punt Road Hill. It’s hard to know if they all knew each other & their family connections… I do know that Sher was friends with someone in the 1950s who had formerly been involved in intelligence work (& may have continued to be, NAA file not currently available). I doubt Sher was involved in anything other than manufacturing in WWII, due to his German background.

  206. thedude747 on January 16, 2023 at 10:24 pm said:

    Keep your nappy on Colonel we all know what you’re angling at and as usual you just don’t get it. Its what the transcripts DONT say you old donut. But joining the dots was never your strong suit was it.

    I really don’t have the time nor the inclination to bring out by crayons and chalk board so lets see if you can work the answer to this question yourself.

    In the 70s doco Littlemore a skilled lawyer turns the tables on Lawson during the interview , Lawson tries to act coy but obviously squirms in his seat whist Littlemore persists ….. why?

    If you can work that out then you know why your comment is a crock of crispy strips

  207. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 10:34 pm said:

    milongal: Steve H. Is after your post reference numbers to check on his foiled first in claim for the Fred Webb suicide case, not believing that no accounts like us could have got there months even years (in one case) before the sod. I’d let the bastard stew, might finally send him over the edge and into the abys of no return. Then we could get on with our work pre July last….whatever that may have been.

  208. Lou from Lismore on January 16, 2023 at 10:35 pm said:

    https://www.pmc.gov.au/honours-and-symbols/list-australian-honours/conspicuous-service-cross

    Colonel- me and the girls have heard that you’re in for a Conspicuous Service medal next week! You’ve certainly very been Conspicuous on these Ciphermysteries threads! I think the Committee had a robust discussions on definitions of service though…

  209. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 10:52 pm said:

    Jo: thanks for the heads up on Smithy ’35. You’ll excuse my ‘mystic prose’ manner I’m sure; You should be aware that my home is non English speaking but for a few anglicised cuss words which goes for me too. Has been so since time immemorial almost, so a can’t help muddling anglaise when my normal thought pattern be in another language (tonal) by and large. Sorry.

  210. John Sanders on January 16, 2023 at 11:16 pm said:

    Peteb: welcome back Cotter, we all missed you like shit especially Jo and thedud. Now that you and Gordon Cramer are as brothers once more, perhaps you might push him for his promised update on George Webb. Seems that his informant Chris from Adelaide, with a full knowledge of the old footy hall of famer’s life and times, was about to reveal some earth shattering news. Await with ‘baited’ breath.

  211. oh my ‘suicide’ and barbiturates were all the rage in the late 30’s 40’s or should i say a well known cover up by intelligence and mob alike…. say there was a hit on a guy named webb and all the other poor sods got in suicided in the cross fire

  212. Peter Davidson on January 17, 2023 at 6:33 am said:

    Calypso

    The samples are 70+ years old. There is no documentation as to when Paul Lawson supposedly collected them, nor how they were stored for the last 70 years. Simply there is not documented chain of custody between the body being found on the beach and the hairs being handed to Professor Abbott.
    You are talking about what happens after they are collected from Paul Lawson, and totally disregarding the 70 odd years that transpired.
    I’ll await SA Police results of what they got from the grave.
    Regards
    Peter-Davidson

  213. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 7:15 am said:

    Just browsing through Paul Lawson’s ’78 interview just to make sure I didn’t miss anything of relevance, knowing full well that thedud is looking for items with which to trap the wiley Colonel. So things I perceived for the first time perhaps being one; That his overall demeanor was one of a forthrightness that most don’t credit him for watching him on TV, apart from the interviewer who got all that he needed and more. Paul clearly blows the lid off GC’s suspicious ‘original’ body theory, when he comes to the part about folks being given opportunity to make comparison t’wixt the original (slab) body with his same source bust. In an early part of the interview Paul also speeks of people being able to compare features of the bust ie., ears, noses, eyes and HAIR. I wasn’t aware of there bring any hairpiece involved, if so where did it come from, what was it made from, was it the ginger/grey mix that he had earlier described and would it have been fitted in loose tufts over a wet plaster skull cap or glued for a more realistic effect. If it was stock from the museum store or anywhere other than the deceased, then the future must be looking decidedly shaky for Derek Abbott’s test samples….Oh, and dud don’t embarrass yourself I’ve got your measure.

  214. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 9:37 am said:

    Steve H. Moseley street being so easy to search on Sands and McDougall we can only wonder why your colleague Ann O. left it to me to point out that her nest of ‘Partridges’ lived at 105 “directly opposite 90A” address of Sister j. E. Thomson. I’ll of course own my horrible blunder with Nan (Nadette) being Nancy but, not in selecting nurse McIntyre??? [sic] as Dr. Bennett’s possible wife (girlfriend). In fact my haste in doing so should convince skeptics that colonel moi got there first by a nose. As for the mighty Dunstan clan that you continue to swoon over; pray tell what in God’s name did they ever have to do with suicidal shopkeeper George A. Webb from Moseley Street. While we’re there, I seem to recall that Doc Dwyer lived at number 24 with his good lady Vera upon return from the Middle East mid ’42 and before heading for Albury in ’44 where a son was welped I think. So not ’46 as I proposed earlier and you’ll please to accept my most humble & heartfelt apology.

  215. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 9:58 am said:

    LFL: nice looking ribbon and all gals but, it being a military award and me never having struck a blow for freedom accept for special Ops. behind the blinds which I can’t mention (OS Act) and as such it would be beneath my dignity to accept the honour. How about a VD and Scar, they’d look good on my rack.

  216. thedude747 on January 17, 2023 at 10:16 am said:

    Ive got your measure Colonel … 2 inches sound about right?

  217. Museum storeroom on January 17, 2023 at 10:36 am said:

    Please everyone! No more references to merkins!!

  218. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 11:15 am said:

    thedud: you keep on leading with your chin, you’ll have to get fitted with a dog’s muzzle. By insinuating that “Littlemore was an experienced Lawyer” in 1978 when he interviewed Paul Lawson, you were, as usual acting on a whim and in so doing deceiving our punters in the process. Stuart didn’t even graduate from law school til ’79 and it wasn’t until the 80’s that he took to doing a few pleas around Sydney courts. He wasn’t no Lincoln lawyer though, he only wanted silk & chambers or nothing and he had fine credentials to get it what’s more.

  219. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 1:10 pm said:

    ….all depends dud. If it be two inches of ball room in your jocks you got me son; but I got two inches of glory on me hairy chest that you aint never gonna have.

  220. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 1:53 pm said:

    Peter Davidson: Derek might be proven wrong in his DNA identification but, there certainly appears to be evidence of his having collected hair samples from the cast 13 years ago which can be validated along with continuity of possession. As for any additional scalp hairs being harvested prior to interrment, that I agree is subject to conjecture and can only be assumed. Though if Sapol got some from Paul Lawson, as I think Clive and Gordon claim and that Derek got half of that haul for analysis, then your contrary assumptions may need to be either revised or withdrawn at some point.

  221. Calypso on January 17, 2023 at 7:17 pm said:

    Peter D – Thats right, I was talking about what happens starting from the sample collection. Regarding your concern, as I mentioned above, samples preferably are taken from tissue that has not been into contact with the outside world to prevent contamination with foreign DNA. If there has been no contact with the outside world, the time that has passed since is no longer relevant what contamination is concerned. So if team DA are selfrespecting scientists that followed protocol, thats what they did too.

    They will probably publish their results, where they will elaborate on how they took the samples. However there also is video documentation on how the samples were collected, in a youtube fragment where DA showed CF on videochat that there were (chest)hairs stuck in the plaster cast, in their in situ position. In that case, the hair roots containing the DNA for analysis have been embedded in the plaster cast and shielded from the outside world for 70+ years.

    I’m sure they would not have let Paul Lawson collect the samples, for he simply did not have the expertise to do that. It also does not make sense to assume that Paul Lawson took the DNA samples 70 years ago, as genetic profiling was simply not known back then.

    You are right that there probably is no official chain of custody between the body that was found on Somerton beach and the hairs that were taken from the bust by team DA. However team DA’s results can be confirmed both by the gold standard of the official examination, and by identical facial features.

  222. Steve H on January 17, 2023 at 8:52 pm said:

    John Sanders

    1) When you could still write in English you posted the following comment (just for nasty I won’t give the full time/date/thread details):

    “john sanders
    on ******** *, 20** at *.** am said:
    Problem with the way these non dedicated sites are set up, is that each post is only good for the period that it remains in the recent post index. I’m sure that in the past seven years of accumulated SM thoughts contained within the various threads (mostly unrelated), somewhere within lies a name for SM and or simple solution to other facets of the mystery, in one form or another. If someone has a way to make it easier for cross reference, please tell our tabulator how this might be achieved.”

    Perhaps SOMEONE could enlighten me as regards to milongal’s numbering system. I didn’t realise that the two of you were such firm “birds of a feather” – boobies that’d be – with your cosy little chats over the years.

    You won’t believe how many of milongal’s interminable screeds (shit cũ nhàm chán) about bus routes I had to wade through to find that quote again! Seems like youse two (cheers Lobby) were much happier when you were working out the exact map coordinates for all the bus stops in the Adelaide area etc. No wonder you resented the new blood that came in last July/August.

    2) Who is “suicidal shopkeeper George A Webb”. I know of a Frederick A Webb. Can’t see any connection between Fred and the Dunstans.

    3) Surprised you didn’t pick up on my placing Robert James Cowan at 47 Moseley Street in 1934. The link from Cowan to the Dunstans is Mrs E E Freeman (see below). She was living there in 1930 when her husband died (see obit in my earlier post) and still listed there in the 1949 S & M along with H Dunstan. Dunstan was listed at 49 in the 1942 S &M (as an example).

    4) Dr Dwyer is an irrelevance. G Adkin is listed at 24 Moseley Street in 1942.

    5) A couple of your posts from the’ AT LAST (TAKE #2): “RONALD FRANCIS” WAS CHEMIST JOHN FREEMAN OF 24A JETTY ROAD, GLENELG…’ thread.

    October 10, 2018 at 11:35 am:
    “milongal: If you could tie Your (Mrs.) E.E. Freeman into 47 Moseley, that would put her next door but one to the dual plot of the Hendricksons at 51 Moseley/13 Pier Street. Maybe we would then have a Freeman/Hendrickson connection which could make both Feltus and Abbott camps compatable afterall.”

    October 11, 2018 at 7:12 am:
    “Now with your land lady Mrs Freeman at 47 Moseley; I’ve checked with all the dead drops and not a single E.E. to be found. ”

    Funny I found E E Freeman at number 47 in five minutes! Born Emma Elizabeth Frith in Encounter Bay, South Australia, Australia on 4 Feb 1872 to Edmund Frith and Eliza Fidock. She married Alfred Cornelius Freeman.* She passed away in 1955. (From Ancestry.co.uk)

    *Born in Port Elliot, South Australia, Australia on 29 Oct 1868 to Jonas Walter Freeman and Emma Jennings…He passed away on 7 Jun 1930 in South Australia. (From Ancestry.co.uk)

    6) Of course this is all part of our team’s diversion ploy. We’re not fools.

  223. thedude747 on January 17, 2023 at 9:32 pm said:

    OH No No No Colonel its is you that isn “leading with your chin” and you’ve ballsed up again old son. LOL !!

    See in your desperation to find even the most insignificant slip on my or other punters posts you’ve F…..ED up AGAIN !!!!!!

    You quote me thedude as describing Littlemore as “an experienced lawyer”

    Never said it Colonel you donut , NEVER SAID IT.

    Go back and read the post then suffer in your Jocks !!!!LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!

    My comment re Littlmore was merely that him as “skilled” not “EXPERIENCED”

    Now I know too much you know what can send you blind so I understand but seriously Colonel here’s yet another example of you being you !!!

    Littlemore having won the prestigious Australian law students association championship Moot the very same year of the doco 78 and launching his successful practice the following year I would suggest that describing him as “skilled” was pretty accurate.

    Hilarious !!!!!!!! nice try old boy

  224. Calypso on January 17, 2023 at 10:11 pm said:

    JS – Good points re the PL interview. With hair they probably ment the hairline, coupe etc which are readily visible at the bust.

  225. Australian Christian Lobby on January 17, 2023 at 10:43 pm said:

    If Nick Pelling put on his new merkin
    And he tired of jerkin’ his gherkin
    He could grab Amber Heard
    And she’d say “‘Oh my word!
    Let’s make love like Serge G and Jane Birkin”

    JE T’AIME! OOOOH! JE T’AIME!

    https://youtu.be/JIQiGN-vO-g

    (With apologies to Museum storeroom)

  226. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 11:03 pm said:

    Steve H: Reminicence is something we all enjoy when bored shitless so thanks for taking me back to the good times when milongal and I had free reign to follow our own Keane initiatives without fear of interference from devious interlopers waiting to steal our thunder if we let our guard down. Your hitting on Hendrickson for one came with recall of numerous interesting twists and turns involving other players and intrigue, including his world class violinist sister, her husband Dr. A. Robson’s conviction for drug theft from his own surgery with help of Dr. J. B. Cleland. Then of course the good doctor’s involvement in search for the still missing Beaumont children at Mena home under authority of Det. Inspector Len Brown. Not to forget the parking of the doctor’s little blue Minx coupe outside his surgery on Pier St., it being the most direct walking route from Jetty Rd. Glenelg to Somerton Beach. The list goes on and not a mucking Charlie, George or Fred Webb in sight apart from spider webbs [sic] hanging all about the inactive Tbt and BS/TS camps across the pond. Ah, how it all ‘brings back the memories of everything we’ve been through’..

  227. @ the Dude, @ PB – Stuart Littlemore may have time on his hands now that he has finished with Craig McLaughlin’s defence. You could be the best people to approach him for recollections of the now cult status 1978 Inside Story Somerton Man épisode… I wasn’t impressed by Littlemore’s line of questioning complainants in the McLaughlin case, but his earlier work stands on its merits & Media Watch, which was initially his creation, is still an ABC TV gem.

  228. John Sanders on January 17, 2023 at 11:41 pm said:

    thedud707: hey no fair man?, splitting straws. ‘experienced = having knowledge or SKILL in a particular field’ (Oxford). Also you’ve been caught red handed, this time digging into my Wikipedia knowledge bank for detail on Stuart Littlemore’s bio… Back to your recent sad comeuppance re TAR v TCRE you then declared to have no confidence in that source’s factual integrity. Can’t have two bites at the red cherry dumbo duds!

  229. John Sanders on January 18, 2023 at 3:25 am said:

    ….Forgive my breaking in on some interesting but totally irrelevant sideshow diversions but, I just got a likely misdirected call from ‘A Bee Cee’ of Incestry Teams through his hush hush Malvern talent…Seems that an unamed child, stillborn to a Webb in Carlton womens hospital was interred at Cheltenham Bayside cemetery on 4 August 1944. I cunningly cross referenced with FAG and varified the hot news; I’m thinking it could be that Dorothy’s own SB of ’51 was possibly not her first, though noting from a Thomas post that another Charles Webb of Nth. Carlton had been around in the forties.

  230. thedue747 on January 18, 2023 at 5:21 am said:

    Deny it all you like Colonel that is a balls up of transcontinental proportions.

    BTW trying to make sense of your post where you talk about having room in your jocks and a hairy 2 inch glory hole on your chest?

    I’d get that looked at if I were you.

  231. John Sanders on January 18, 2023 at 7:51 am said:

    Steve H….well the main reason I made no comment re your ground breaking discovery of Bob Cowan living at 47 Moseley St. circa ’34 is simply because it was in fact true; having located the Cowans ‘probably’ at that same address, same timeframe myself some time back and posted it whatsmore. You’ll understand of course how difficult it be to check back, there being no ready reference in place, plus I have a million more imortant things to get through then to satisfy your ego.

  232. Dame Zara Bate on January 18, 2023 at 8:18 am said:

    Nobody wants to hear from Steve. He is a virulent lefty who abhors any sort of realistic speech and makes as his coeur d’embarrassement the holocost and an obsession with anyone who abuses the Jewish participants in this dreadful murder. Steve is a man who was given drugs in Australia and sent on some sort of wild goose chase. After this he nearly died due to his depressions. What does that mean? Did he try to commit suicide? If so is he not mentally ill? Why should anyone on this page pay him a moment’s attention?

  233. john sanders on January 18, 2023 at 8:22 am said:

    …..if it helps any Steve, my notes indicate a birth to the Cowans of a daughter in 1936, presumably while still at the same Moseley St. address. If its so important I’d ask @milongal to look up the reference number which can set you straight on how to locate my original post. NB I’m sure it came up more than once from memory.

  234. Steve H on January 18, 2023 at 1:29 pm said:

    Interestingly, listed at 49 Moseley Street in the 1949 S & M Directory – between 47 at which Mrs E E Freeman and H Dunstan are listed and 51 at which Dr D Hendrickson is listed – is one C Clendinen (and a Miss E Clendinen).

    C Clendinen was actually Claude (ie Sydney Claude Ellis) Clendinnen, described on Ancestry.co.uk as “Born in Truro, South Australia on 17 Feb 1891 to Samuel Alfred Clendinnen and Clarissa (Clara) Hare …[He]…married Catherine Winnifred Doody and had 3 children. He passed away on 18 Nov 1953 in Adelaide, South Australia.”

    Catherine Clendinnen (nee Doody) is described thus: ” Born in Adelaide, South Australia on 16 Nov 1888 to John (Jack) Thomas Doody and Hanora “Nora” Ryan… She passed away on 10 Oct 1978 in Adelaide, South Australia.”

    Miss E Clendinnen was Eileen Clare Clendinnen (1921-1998) and she had two sisters Kathleen and Lilian.

    What is fascinating about the Clendinnens is that Claude was involved in one of SA’s biggest ever horse racing scandals. He was described in the News (Adelaide, SA) Tue 16 Jul 1946 as “a former racehorse owner, an ex hotelkeeper…reputed to be one of Adelaide’s wealthiest men.”

    From the Chronicle (Adelaide, SA) Thu 3 Oct 1946:

    “Chief Watchman
    Case Ends
    Accused Acquitted
    Of Conspiracy
    The jury acquitted Sydney
    Claude Ellis Clendinnen, 55, in-
    vestor, of Moseley street, Glenelg,
    and Albert Wachman, 46, clerk, of
    Milton street, Glenelg, of a joint
    conspiracy charge in the Chief
    Watchman case, but found Clen-
    dinnen guilty on a second count
    of having incited the trainer of the
    horse to conspire, cheat and de-
    fraud. The Chief Justice presided.
    Clendinnen, a cripple, perma-
    nently confined to a wheel chair,
    wept bitterly when he was fined
    £300 after evidence had been given
    of his inability to serve a term of
    imprisonment.
    Clendinnen and Wachman had denied
    a joint charge that between July 8 and
    12, at Glenelg, they conspired together
    and with persons unknown, to cheat and
    defraud the owners of the racehorse
    Chief Watchman and other persons un-
    known by attempting to induce Cyril
    Thomas Gilbertson, horse trainer, of
    Augusta street, Glenelg, dishonestly to
    prevent the horse from winning the Air-
    port Handicap at Morphettville on July
    13.
    Clendinnen also denied the separate
    charge that between the same dates, at
    Glenelg, he incited Gilbertson to con-
    spire to cheat and defraud persons un-
    known by dishonest and corrupt prac-
    tices in connection with horse racing.”

    For more details see:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130857457?searchTerm=%22clendinnen%22%20moseley%20street

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128370169?searchTerm=%22clendinnen%22%20moseley%20street

  235. Australian Christian Lobby: neat use of “Jane Birkin” as a rhyme, very religious of you.

  236. Steve H on January 18, 2023 at 5:45 pm said:

    @Nick

    Is Australian Christian Lobby actually the late Lobby Loyde who posted here earlier?

    @Dame Zara Bate

    Is that really the best you can do? Not very hard hitting is it? What’s the holocost?

    @John Edward Sanders (Dame Zara?)

    It’s my link from Cowan to the Dunstans that’s interesting. Forget Don D. He was barely out of short trousers in 1948. If you look at Mrs H Dunstan she’s got her fingers in a lot of pies including the Royal Adelaide and Children’s Hospitals. Also see my recent post about the crooked Claude Clendinnen – one of Adelaide’s wealthiest men – at number 49. We know there is a link between the Dunstans and the Sparrows, another powerful Adelaide family, as you realised from the moment when you finally twigged to their possible role in this case thanks to Ann O’s miraculous find. And of course the Sparrows lived opposite the Thomsons, as you claim to have “discovered” but which Ann tells me that she was unwilling to divulge at that early stage due to shady characters such as yourself muscling in on our findings before we had crossed the i’s and dotted the t’s as it were.

    Concerning the Sparrows (from Cyril Sparrow WikiTree): “There was a horse paddock over the lane behind the house and a bakery at the back of the house opposite.”

    The bakery belonged to D H (David) Proudman of 92 Moseley Street. See for example from The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA) Fri 1 Jul 1949 :
    :
    “Missing Horses. — The disap
    pearance on Tuesday night of
    two bay geldings, valued at £30,
    from a paddock at Walker
    street. Somerton, where a lock
    was broken on a. gate, is being
    investigated by the police. The
    horses are the property of David
    Proudman. master baker, of
    Moseley street, Glenelg.”

    Happily the neddies were found roaming nearby in Oaklands a day later.

    Found a quote from your old mate Peter Bowes on September 18, 2021 on ‘TAMAM SHUD / SOMERTON MAN’:

    “[Nick]…you could attempt to control the troll in your midst. Sanders, to me, appears to be suffering from some kind of victim syndrome, living alone in a Vietnamese provincial city, obviously friendless and with enough idle time to make a complete arse of himself online … I’d offer the poor lonely bastard some help if I could as his life appears to be a misery.”

    And I thought you had a wife and children!

    Earlier you had admitted to your soul mate:

    “john sanders
    on July 4, 2018 at 12:46 pm said:
    Milongal: Mate, I’m trying to figure this Sands & Macdougall Adelaide residental mumbo jumbo out but it’s a bit beyond my pay (& intellectual) scale.”

    To quote Peter Bowes “I’d offer the poor lonely bastard some help if I could”.

    PS If anyone is in Bristol, England, and can look me in he eye and say that they have actually made it through one of milongal’s posts I’ll buy them drinks at my local from sparrow-fart until closing time.

    Sample:

    “Adelaide’s transport (like most cities, I guess) has always been city-centric – that is, that the focus is on moving people in and out of the city rather than between suburban centres). A lot of Adelaide buses were run privately, and although MTT (Municipal Tramways Trust) eventually took over most of the system, I’m not certain in what era. I think anemptyglass had some better information, but for me one point of interest is where the St Leonard’s route started (these days most North Tce routes are through-running (ie come from the Eastern Suburbs and go to the Western Suburbs) but I think that’s a more recent optimisation. There seems to be some certainty that the ticket was purchased between the Railway Station and cnr West Tce/South Tce – which to me suggests the Railway Station is the first stop. While this is plausible, I would have thought it makes more sense to start at East Tce (or even Hackney Road where the depot used to be (where the Conservatory and the Wine Centre are today)) – so I can’t help but wonder whether much as (IMO) the train ticket is ‘assumed to be unused’ rather than ‘definitively unused’, so too the bus ticket being purchased no earlier than the Railway Station is an assumption based on the presence of the train ticket. If the bus started earlier in the city**, then there’s plenty more stops where the ticket may have been purchased. Given Adelaide’s central commercial district focuses around Rundle Mall (back then, Rundle St) it would make sense to have buses that either pick up in King William St before turning into North Tce or travel the whole length of North Tce – either of which would still be Section 1….”

    And that’s only a small part of one of his/her posts!

  237. Adelaide’s transport (like most cities, I guess) has always been city-centric – that is, that the focus is on moving people in and out of the city rather than between suburban centres). A lot of Adelaide buses were run privately, and although MTT (Municipal Tramways Trust) eventually took over most of the system, I’m not certain in what era. I think anemptyglass had some better information, but for me one point of interest is where the St Leonard’s route started (these days most North Tce routes are through-running (ie come from the Eastern Suburbs and go to the Western Suburbs) but I think that’s a more recent optimisation. There seems to be some certainty that the ticket was purchased between the Railway Station and cnr West Tce/South Tce – which to me suggests the Railway Station is the first stop. While this is plausible, I would have thought it makes more sense to start at East Tce (or even Hackney Road where the depot used to be (where the Conservatory and the Wine Centre are today)) – so I can’t help but wonder whether much as (IMO) the train ticket is ‘assumed to be unused’ rather than ‘definitively unused’, so too the bus ticket being purchased no earlier than the Railway Station is an assumption based on the presence of the train ticket. If the bus started earlier in the city**, then there’s plenty more stops where the ticket may have been purchased. Given Adelaide’s central commercial district focuses around Rundle Mall (back then, Rundle St) it would make sense to have buses that either pick up in King William St before turning into North Tce or travel the whole length of North Tce – either of which would still be Section 1….”

    Can the bus trajectories/public transport be matced up to the code? if Pb was giving instructions over the phone then it would explain the crossed out bit and the circled parts of the code

  238. Calypso on January 18, 2023 at 9:15 pm said:

    Got some genious Scrabble combinations here: TEDIOUS, VERBOSE, COPY, PASTE, CUTTOTHECHASE, GETTOTHEPOINT, LENGTHY, IRRELEVANT, SPAMMER, KLETSMAJOOR.

  239. Billy Thorpe on January 18, 2023 at 10:12 pm said:

    Dame Zara Bate
    Can masticate
    On last night’s pasty
    I have a hunch she really is
    A colonel’s patsy!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=49f0LEVmcEM

  240. John Sanders on January 18, 2023 at 11:00 pm said:

    Billy Thorpe

    You’re gonna need an ocean
    Of calmine lotion
    You’ll be scratcin’ like a hound
    The minute you start to fuck around

  241. Steve H on January 19, 2023 at 12:43 am said:

    John Sanders

    Some chap named “dusty” – whose dad was Sandy Sanders from Easter Island or some such godforsaken rock – on another site (Kyle Shepard’s The Digital Labyrinth) – made an “interesting” comment with ref to R J Cowan:

    “dusty
    January 9, 2020 at 7:55 am
    SM’s spare parts analyst Robert James Cowan never went after the hun either, though he had a ligitimate excuse, being the chemical examiner for explosives at SA’s wartime munition plants. Did you know that during the pre war period at least Bob lived with his family at 57 Moseley Street, Glenelg. So what? one might be inclined to ask, it’s a long street and after all, some of our other players seemed to like it there too. In this case his house belonged to a woman named E. Freeman who may not have been Chemist John Freeman’s wife Effie, though possibly a revelation (sic). No matter because 57 sort of backs on to the Pier Street home and nextdoor surgery of Doctor Doug Hendrickson anither once nominated Ron Francis candidate who was a cobber of Detective Len Brown.”

    Well, I suppose one has to forgive an old codger for getting the numbers 47 and 57 mixed up and the inability to make the easy find that E Freeman was Emma and not Chemist Freeman’s wife Effie.

  242. Mary McClintock on January 19, 2023 at 12:50 am said:

    “Australian Christian Lobby” is a contradiction in terms. People who make a big deal of religious divisions used to be English-vs-Irish in the form of Anglicans versus Catholics.

    By the 1960s and 70s, it was all “religion – who cares?” and definitely bad banners in every class of Australian society to enquire into a person’s religious preferences – as indeed into their political preferences. Australia has a completely secret ballot and unlike the Presidential type of semi-democracy-semi-autocracy no requirement to declare a voter’s intention to anyone or at any time before voting day,

    The religious-nationalist-and-lets-have-guns-and-remove-black-skinned-people-off-the-voting-list is not Australian. It’s American. There’s a huge, implanted pseudo-Australian population here, whose agenda is to terra-form an independent nation to be US-compatible. Christian fundamentalism, and uniting it with extreme right-wing agendas, non-universal suffrage, and hunting our native animals while fracking the reserves created to remain their habitat is all part of that Sky-Murdoch sort of package.
    Un-Australian by definition.

  243. Steve H on January 19, 2023 at 12:58 am said:

    Just been going through a few old BigFooty posts. A couple stuck out.

    1) Redacted (PD) on Sep16, 2019 commented:

    “Noting that Robert Victor Hemblys Scales (MI5) visited Dr Lica Sprod (nee Delprat) in Unley Park, South Australia in late October 1948 with his soon to be fiance, Tania Teppema (The daughter of PE Teppema and C Delprat).
    Dr Sprod’s previous abode was a few doors down from Thomson on Moseley St, Glenelg, and previously had a surgery on Jetty Rd in the same building as the chemist who ‘found’ the Rubiayat.
    Someone was studying exotic poisons and used an invite to Dr Sprod’s sister’s wedding to ask someone to write down the effects of such a poison. Of G Delprat’s children, only 1 didn’t study medicine (Carmen), the one that married P E Teppema, so whoever was collecting stories of exotic poisons with an invite to Carmen’s wedding, must’ve been either Dr Mary Mawson or Dr Lica Sprod.
    Tania and Robert visited both in Adelaide in October 1948, however I doubt that Lady Douglas Mawson knew as much about Glenelg as Dr Lica Sprod.
    Noted also is Dr Lica Sprod was the widow of Dr Milo Weeks Sprod, who died ‘after a short illness’ in 1932.
    Personally, I probably wouldn’t drink any tea that Dr Lica Sprod made.”

    Interesting to note that one Douglas Buxton Hendrickson took over that practice at the corner of Moseley Street (51) and Pier Street (13). A Dr Guymer had his practice there in the time between Drs Sprod and Hendrickson.

    2) Gordon 1552 (Cramer) on 7 Oct 2019 commented:

    “From Clive:
    “The Advertiser” 17 July 1946 Page 15 was advertising Lot 2
    Moseley Street=90, 90A & 90B for auction on 30 July 1946.

    1946: Not sure where Thomson was, but early part of 1947 he was living
    at 7 Main St, Henley Beach.

    From about March to July 1947 he was living at “Robinvale”, Alta Mira
    Cres, Belair

    By October 1947 he/she were living at 90A Moseley St (Advert “The
    Advertiser” 18 Oct 1947 Page 20).”

    H A Lynden is listed at 90a in the S & M for 1947 and A Ross for 1948.

  244. Dude, that is a awesome piece of reporting by Mr. Littlemore that people might want to take a look at if they can on YouTube called “The Mystery of Somerton Man”. Detective Brown and Leane offer up what I think are sound assertions of what may have transpired or what they thought did. Detective Brown said it was believed SM man was a European, though he was wearing clothes that had
    “traced” by a tailor as probably American. All clothes including what he was wearing had the labels removed, except one in the suitcase he he’d as an Alaco or Laco? (not familiar with the brand myself, and the brush in the case was used for stenciling, and he sounded somewhat assured it might have been a third officer on a ship. Any connections there with Carl? Has it ever been postulated the case and the SM are not really owned by him, at all or what the interim connections were? Are any of these items still extant? Mr Lawson shows the cast he made and does mention Littlemore is “on tender ground”. This seems somewhat serious, though honestly generally lighthearted. How many people saw the cast in total? It may be that Lawson was more “experienced” though what does that mean?

    Everyone associated here that’s talked has been chasing there own tails it seems. Also everyone also knows who follows along by now they might be on tender ground. If its just Ms Thomson and they thought that why didn’t they pursue it more? Why is this ground still so tender?

    Finally I didn’t notice it the first time through; Detective Leane did say he thought SM might have poisoned himself with bush people, blow gun or spear poison? Curare is it? This would leave no trace? Not real picking on you, Dude, so sorry. Just want to restate, and “bore in” a little. I don’t think it’s impossible this could return to the US.

  245. John Sanders on January 19, 2023 at 5:48 am said:

    Steve H…What a dip shit researcher you turned out to be. After all your fancy claims you done missed your two Moseley St. “mafia” Godfathers of the 30s, right and under your nose too. Drs. Ken Steele at 32, next door to Martin Dwyer, and his medical practise partner Milo Sprod at 51 dec. ’34, next to Doug Hendrickson on one side at 13 Pier St., with Jim Cowan at 47 who had rented from Emma Freeman apparently. You want the full gen. on the Milo Sprod MI5 connection suggest you ask PeteBowes, PeteDavo or Gordon Cramer. As for Ken Steele (hero of Somerton Beach Suicide ’43 and Glenelg Mayor) ask me nicely and I’ll give you details of the book by victim R. Bungey.

  246. thedude747 on January 19, 2023 at 10:32 am said:

    @Matt it certainly has been suggested particularly if memory serves me by the ever sceptical PB that the suitcase did not belong to SM.

    As far as the US connection the suggestion out there is that Carl was either gifted or borrowed his deceased nephew Jack Keane’s clothes and Jack having spent some time in the US that therein lies the US connection. Or put simply Jack bought the clothes in the US and Carl got them after Jack died.

  247. John Sanders on January 19, 2023 at 10:59 am said:

    Steve H…my short sightedness does get me into strife with me numbers l’ll own. Should have taken advice from the old man ‘Sandy Sanders’ (not his birth names) when I was a young codger. He was proved wrong in one sense in that it didn’t fall off…may as well have for all the use it’s been, of late….which reminds me, that the Sprog practice and Freeman chemists (both) were not in the same building and were in fact on the opposite sides of Jetty Road.

  248. John Sanders on January 19, 2023 at 11:23 am said:

    ….I wonder how you could have gotten onto the Dr. Sprod connection before it was posted. Perhaps some other astute punters out there might be wondering as well, could it be a sixth sense or else, intuition!!!

  249. Calypso on January 19, 2023 at 12:14 pm said:

    Matt – In the Coronial Inquest reports it is stated that the officially consulted experts believed he was poisoned, and the eminent expert on poisons prof. Sir Dr. Cedric Stanton Hicks wrote down it could either be digitalis or most likely ouabain (strophantin), an extremely hazardous African arrow poison used for hunting and warfare. Ouabain is so hazardous that the professor did not want to mention it aloud in open court at the time so he wrote it down.
    There is also mention of cuts in between his knuckles and a cut with bloodtinted stain at the arch of his shirt.

  250. Steve H on January 19, 2023 at 3:50 pm said:

    @Calypso

    Given your penchant for scrabble it’s a shame you can’t spell genius. Klootzak.

    @John Sanders, or should I say Poison Ivy

    Wrong decade mate! For your info SM was found on Somerton Beach in 1948, not 1938. I read all about Bob Bungey via “dusty” on The Digital Labyrinth.

    Funnily enough one of dusty’s posts caught my eye because of a mention of an R J Cowan:

    “dusty
    December 16, 2019 at 7:47 am
    Not as difficult as expected, going through photos of 452 Sqn.pilots connected with Bob Bungey, in that all but two were dead by war’s end. The surviving pair not in the shots, Flt. Lts. R.J. Cowan, a POW and Justin O’Byrne can be cleared as both were still well short of SM’s estimated age by 1948.”

    Presumably a different R J Cowan.

    @all

    For Tania Teppema’s October 1948 visit to Adelaide see:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129897450?searchTerm=%22milo%20sprod%22

    Note that Lady Mawson was Francisca Adriana “Paquita”, not Mary, and she was sister to Tania Teppema’s violinist mother Carmen and Dr Lica Sprod, all daughters of Guillaume Deprat, General Manager of BHP and pioneer of “the froth flotation process for refining sulphide ore”, who “foresaw the exhaustion of BHP’s mine at Broken Hill, and pushed for moving the company’s smelters to Port Pirie; also construction of the BHP Whyalla Tramway”, and later “shifted BHP from silver and lead mining to zinc and sulphur production.” He “also pushed construction of the BHP steelworks at Newcastle, New South Wales.” (From Wikipedia)

    Tania Teppema married Robert Hemblys-Scales in Canberra in February 1949.

    Dr Milo Sprod was also a racehorse owner. See:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128910222?searchTerm=%22milo%20sprod%22

    He had previously had a practice in Jetty Road. As JS points out above it was on the opposite side of the road to Freeman Chemist. From Glenelg Guardian (SA) Wed 11 Jun 1930 :

    “During Saturday evening some
    evilly-disposed person or persons removed
    Dr, Milo Sprod’s brass from the
    front of W. Fisk’s Pharmacy in Jetty-
    Road. An attempt was also made on
    Mr. C. R. Stratford’s plate from the
    adjoining building. Several screws •
    had been removed, but apparently the
    “artists” were disturbed, as they left
    the plate hanging. Dr. Sprod is justlyindignant
    at this interference with his
    property, and is offering a substantial
    reward for the conviction of the offenders.”

    Fisk’s pharmacy was at 25 Jetty Road, now a Subway Sandwich shop. 24 Jetty Road was actually part of the Glenelg City Hotel. According to Feltus “John Freeman, in December, 1948, was a Chemist, and resided with his wife in premises attached to their Chemist shop, at 24A Jetty Road, Glenelg.” 24a was listed in the 1949 S & M as Freeman Chemist and the hotel, then called St Vincent Hotel, listed at 24 and 28. 26 was Jasmine Beauty Salon (Miss K Wilson). 25 was still Fisk’s Pharmacy and the manager was D’Arcy, Cock.

    Dr Arthur Guymer moved to Moseley Street in 1935 and took over the practice after Milo Sprod’s death. See:

    ttps://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215216220?searchTerm=%22dr%20guymer%22

    His wife had a strange encounter with a cyclist who had an obsession with wheel nuts:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128386516?searchTerm=%22dr%20guymer%22

    Dr Douglas Hendrickson moved into 13 Pier Street (ie the same building as 51 Moseley Street) sometime in the 1940s, certainly by 1944 (per a newspaper ref), having had his practice at Gloucester Terrace, Norwood at the time of his divorce from his first wife in 1941.

    Some people still think the Rubaiyat belonged to Dr Hendrickson.

    From the Digital Labyrinth:

    “We [aka dusty aka JS]
    October 12, 2019 at 2:24 am
    Neither Margaret Grasby or Effie Collyer, being fortunate enough to have brothers, we are no doubt missing a brother in law for either of the Freeman’s lads Col or Jack, thereby leavingtheir alleged connection to a Hillman Minx somewhat short on a pure factual basis. Perhaps Derek Abbott’s alternates, Dr.Doug Hendrickson and brother-in-law Dr. Graeme Robson may have been a better bet afterall As a matter of pure speculation, all too common throughout SM related online offerings these days, neither Jack or Collin Freeman, nor their up town ladies, would have lowered their status by driving or being seen in a lowly Roots made vehicle. In Adelaide of the day, Coventry Motors, owned by Maggie Freeman’s Dad, were S. A. distributers of prestigious post war Armstrong Sidley models like the Lancaster Saloon and sporty drop-head Hurricane Coupe, either of which woud be deemed more in keeping with the status of our friends.”

  251. Steve H on January 19, 2023 at 4:26 pm said:

    Can anyone advise me where the video featuring Paul Lawson naming “Mrs Thomson” posted to YouTube twelve years ago comes from?

    https://youtu.be/u571rcZHs-I

    As I noted above (without providing a link) it was posted by one Foxglove48 (geddit?)

    Intriguingly Foxglove also posted four videos about Marbury School (Wairoa), Aldgate, in the Adelaide Hills three years ago. The principal of the school, which appears in the film Picnic at Hanging Rock, was Margaret Edhouse (neeLangley), childhood best friend of Jessica Thomson. See:

    https://youtu.be/4Fw3Ieufx_M

  252. Steve H on January 19, 2023 at 4:35 pm said:

    Link re Dr Arthur Guymer in my post above at 3.50 pm should be:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215216220?searchTerm=%22dr%20guymer%22

    Missed the h off!

  253. Calypso on January 19, 2023 at 6:32 pm said:

    Steve – Genious is often used as an adjective, as mentioned in several dictionaries. And frankly, I don’t give a damn. Just as I don’t give a damn about tedious posts with unsourced listings of all of Adelaide that are leading nowhere. This site has a search button, I don’t need spammers for me to copy and paste all messages thank you very much.

  254. Steve H on January 19, 2023 at 7:37 pm said:

    @Calypso

    It’s called research. Something you are obviously unfamiliar with.

    Best stick with your absurd “following up on the Tremiti interpretation and the name Liabo therein of eg sailor Henri O. Liabo, to see if Carl possibly served on the same ship as he did, along with a mr. R. Goabab, mr. Liao and mr. T. Bimpanet.”

    No ones interested! You are a brain-dead baboon. Stop attacking other people’s constructive contributions. it’s not your site!

  255. Calypso on January 19, 2023 at 9:10 pm said:

    Steve – If you think I’m not familiar with research you’re a fool. But who I am is not important, only my words are. If you really think you are doing research, start sourcing your findings to begin with and try to motivate why your finding is important to the case. You are making no sense at all and calling people names will not help you.

  256. Calypso on January 19, 2023 at 9:30 pm said:

    I’d like to share a new finding that I’m rather excited about! I noticed it under the second A of GOABAB. I’m afraid it’s another port 🙂

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y33AiqXOlJbeC3IqbkL6aCvEcRyGygDU/view?usp=share_link

    I have found some more exciting stuff, still working on showing it in a picture. Coming soon!

  257. John Sanders on January 19, 2023 at 10:53 pm said:

    @Steve H?

    Thanks for the heads up re the Dr. Sprod practise being opposite Freemans. Now a response to my follow-up of 11.23am would be appreciated to set things straight.

  258. Dude, I thought Nick ruled out the Jack Keane idea. One thing about all our posts and comments in general… sometimes when I post something, it isn’t necessarily my final word, rather a starting point. I noticed Dr Abbott’s university page addresses some questions people may have, and is quite informative in general.

    Does anyone know where the bank(?) is, that the ostensible *second* phone number on the Rubaiyat references?

    Calypso, interesting. I didn’t know about the cuts.

  259. Peter Davidson on January 20, 2023 at 8:39 am said:

    It’s probably of interest to both Calypso and Steve that Dr Lica Sprod who married Dr Milo Sprod and moved their medical practice to Moseley Street, had studied the use of indigenous tribal use of poisons, such as the one written on the back of a wedding invite to her sister Carmen’s wedding in Jakarta when Lica and her sister Mary were in medical school. Mary married Peter van Buttingha Wichers, Dutch diplomat to South Africa.
    You can read the hand written note on the back of the wedding invite, titled “Death by Tuva” here
    https://search.alexanderstreet.com/preview/work/bibliographic_entity%7Cbibliographic_details%7C3250615

  260. Peter Davidson on January 20, 2023 at 8:46 am said:

    Clarification..
    The information is written on the back of reused stationery, consisting of a wedding announcement for Carmen Delprat and P.E. Teppema in Melbourne, …
    The story came from Jakarta

  261. Poppins on January 20, 2023 at 9:17 am said:

    Oh wait, I realise I departed with my umbrella up and everything due to strange and peculiar circumstances, but hey, I’ve landed again, err, it happens …. so has anyone looked at the photo of Leo Vivian Keane that’s now available on the Australian National Archives? Can someone clever put the picture up against the little chappie on the ground in the family photo, they appear to be the same person, in my opinion. So, he went to Christian Brothers Technical College from 1928 to 1930, if that isn’t interesting, I don’t know what is, really, is that a CBTC uniform he’s wearing? Cheers

  262. Steve H on January 20, 2023 at 11:48 am said:

    Calypso, or should I say Sandra P van Zakkenwasser

    Message from Gordon Cramer on tamamshud.blogspot today:

    “CALYPSO:

    I applaud your efforts but you are about ten years behind with your findings. If you search this blog you will find many posts and many images covering the presence of micro written codes. The first post I believe was in 2013. Since then I have taken some 9800 photographs of the code page, the Boxall Rubaiyat, and the torn piece, In the process, I used UV, Infrared and variations, oblique lighting, sodium hypochlorite, acetic acid, and many other techniques some of which were documented as being in use during WW2 and earlier. Who knows what else has been found.”

    You are a solipsistic, narcissistic non-entity who, as GC says, is at least ten years behind the curve. Your constant bleating that no-one listens to you is laughable – I note your post on DA’s Facebook page on 16 Jan (which is one of many similar whinings):

    “I noticed what seems to be the second number two weeks ago but apparently that isnt interesting enough.”

    No, your unsourced, pseudo-scientific, self-absorbed ravings are of interest to nobody. Absolutely nobody. You are flogging a dead horse and have been for months.

    You obviously don’t have any background in academic research or any knowledge of what empirical investigation involves. You certainly don’t actually read my posts or you would realise that I am one of the few contributors here who ALWAYS sources my “findings”.

    Another quote, this time from me:

    “Steve H
    on January 16, 2023 at 11:43 am said:
    If I ever make a reference to an earlier finding I always give a quote, a date/thread reference or a link instead of making a snarky comment such as “But obviously we’re the ones not paying attention {milongal].””

    The reason I include extensive quotes from earlier comments is that, unlike you, I am always happy to acknowledge that other people have made similar findings in the past. That is called collaboration. You simply want to be the “hero” who “solves” the code which almost certainly isn’t a code, as serious researchers such as Derek Abbott and Nick Pelling stated years ago. But it appears you are either unfamiliar with Gordon Cramer’s research or don’t want to acknowledge he was there a decade before you. Like Cramer and Behrooz, as two examples, you come to your conclusion first and then look for any far-fetched “evidence” which supports it and ignore the obvious facts which would easily disprove your conclusion to anyone with any sort of research background, or indeed common sense. Any serious forensic investigation has to start building brick by brick from the bottom up. You might find that boring because you are more interested in peddling your inane fantasies about non-existent sailors from all four corners of the world. But it’s actually the only worthwhile approach.

    And please enlighten me on how to search for individual comments about a specific topic on Cipher Mysteries. I have asked several times without any answer.

    Actually calling people names WILL help me. I speak as I find. Genious (sic) you are not!

  263. Steve H on January 20, 2023 at 12:09 pm said:

    John Sanders

    Before posting on CM I always consult my favourite clairvoyant Madame Klara Kloothommel. She’s the one who’s feeding genious (sic) Calypso all that cobblers about Tremiti and the poor sop has swallowed it hook, line and sinker!

    As I have said in earlier comments I’m always happy to give a heads up to people who actually do a bit of decent research.

  264. Steve H: I’ve just moderated out your last comment, partly for cutting and pasting comments from Gordon Cramer’s blog (which goodness knows already gets more than enough attention), but mainly for piling in on commenter Calypso. I get your opinion, but no thanks for how you were expressing it.

    The easiest way to find anything on Cipher Mysteries is to do a Google Search with site:ciphermysteries.com as part of your query. 100x better than the built-in WordPress search (and no, I don’t know why).

  265. John Sanders on January 20, 2023 at 1:06 pm said:

    Steve H. Some devastating news for Calypso coming from the Sunshine Coast. I’d rather you break it to her/him, you pair being more particular with your strict research regimens; Whereas I’m more inclined towards the tried and true suck it and see or pot luck approach when it comes to detail.

  266. John Sanders on January 20, 2023 at 1:39 pm said:

    Steve: are you sure about Calypso being one with our dear departed Sandra P van Winklepussy, come as a rude awakening. Last time I called her to task, she denied emphatically having had any recent contact with Derek’s site. I must say that I would have preferred it had she taken up with @em’s new lead on the Marshall murder of which I consider myself the world authority. Even visited his Potts Point address fairly recently.

  267. Calypso on January 20, 2023 at 2:11 pm said:

    Peter D – thanks for the info 🙂

  268. @ Poppins- what a breath of fresh air to see you & your ☂️ umbrella!

    It could be Leo in his school uniform, 1928?! Leo was over 6ft tall as an adult…

    It could also be Norman Frederick Webb, Russell’s son. His WWII airforce record is now also on line via the NAA and his photo has a good resemblance! Thick, dark wavy hair, brushed back. But that would make the photo later than 1929 & according to Stuart Webb, Amy Webb is in the shot (she died in June 1929).

    @ Pete Bowes – maybe you should just ask Stuart & set us all straight!

    An interesting aside – 1990s correspondence re another Webb has ended up in Norman’s file. It relates to Linda Webb, née Paton, who according to the letter, was one of the first WRAAF women attached to Central Bureau Cryptography and Intelligence. She joined Central Bureau in 1942 and soon after was sent to Brisbane where she became permanent secretary to the Director. This is where she met Norman Webb, Cryptographer with the British Army attached to Australia in Brisbane.

    I think the misplaced letter brings me back to my initial interest in WWII signals intelligence & hunch that Charlie had been involved (simply because Bromby Street was such a prime location). I was of course off the mark… and signals was a very middle class milieu. Linda Webb’s war record is very similar to that of the family member whose gloves I was given when I married (as something old). She moved from Melbourne to Townsville where she worked as a secretary to an American Colonel. I found all of this out recently after spotting some familiar names whilst following the Charlie Webb trail, which for now seems to have run to ground…

  269. Kara van Parque on January 21, 2023 at 12:33 am said:

    Just noticed Creamer’s rambling quoted above – ‘the process, I used UV, Infrared and variations, oblique lighting, sodium hypochlorite, acetic acid, and many other techniques’.

    On a photo of a glass plate redrawn 70 years ago in marker pen. What did he do with the sodium hypochlorite? Drink it? The smug superiority of this guy is off the charts. Fancy his making the paper and telly.

    I’ll miss you abusing everyone, Steve, while constantly accusing everyone of ‘hate speech’. Nobody cares about anybody’s medical history here except Jestyn’s and Carl’s.

  270. Major Norman Frederick Webb & Linda Webb, née Paton, mentioned here in reminiscences of Central Bureau (Cranleigh, 260 Domain Road) – NB- no relation to Norman Fredrick Webb of Dromana, just a very similar name.

    Major Webb had worked for Shell Oil in Japan & was fluent in Japanese. He was in Japan prior to Japan entering the war.

    Norman Fredrick’s wife was nee Langley, but doesn’t appear to be related to Margaret Langley…

    https://www.ozatwar.com/sigint/2000_dec_cbic.pdf

  271. David Morgan on January 21, 2023 at 11:48 am said:

    @poppins

    No-one clever came forward. But I wanted to show that Leo (in uniform) is Leo (TV/radio star).

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bZ2R5kgkccE5BZvjl7VRYevgm1havc2_/view?usp=sharing

    I couldn’t get the child to match Leo with facial ID but the image quality is poor. I created an average image of all Leos and added in the child. Also an improved image (with Remini) is of the child.

    My guess from the beginning was the child was Leo. But I can’t prove it.

  272. David Morgan on January 21, 2023 at 11:49 am said:

    @poppins (repeated because it may have been rejected for being a duplicate)

    No-one clever came forward. But I wanted to show that Leo (in uniform) is Leo (TV/radio star).

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bZ2R5kgkccE5BZvjl7VRYevgm1havc2_/view?usp=sharing

    I couldn’t get the child to match Leo with facial ID but the image quality is poor. I created an average image of all Leos and added in the child. Also an improved image (with Remini) is of the child.

    My guess from the beginning was the child was Leo. But I can’t prove it.

  273. Steve h , please stay your findings and input are valuable and appreciated

  274. David Morgan on January 21, 2023 at 1:47 pm said:

    @poppins

    The Morgan Theory of average images – I just made it up, Is that if you add 3 faces together and then create an average (A + A + A) /3 = A, but if one of them is another person the average = 2/3 A + 1/3 B. It becomes less like A.

    I then use betaface to then compare them. If it is a bad average then it becomes less like the original (lower score). If it is a good average it becomes more like them (higher score) in Betaface face-match maths.

    The average of Leo and child becomes more like Leo not less in terms of Betaface scores.

    But it is not foolproof (Betaface maths) as for years I believed SM (dead) was more like a Nazi (Rudolf Mons) than all other images of suspects – even his own clay death mask.

  275. David Morgan on January 21, 2023 at 5:56 pm said:

    Looking at Norman’s NAA record there seemed to be a problem about the way Frederick or Fredrick was written.

    Norman F. Webb was a bus driver but seemed to have some challenges. It comes across he was educationally disadvantaged in some way. But kindly looking after his dad. Whereas Leo seemed to have been educationally advantaged. You wonder how two brothers could be so different. Perhaps it was the same with Carl and his brother Roy. One gets an education while the other has to work, stay home and look after dad. Also, the advantage of a better education meant they did better in the war.

  276. David Morgan: given (as far I understand) the lack of genealogical information available on Mons, it could conceivably be that he was in some way related to the Weber family, things far stranger than that have certainly happened. Have you managed to find anything about Mons’ parents or family?

  277. @ David – Norman & Leo were cousins. Norman’s mother died when he was still a young boy, his father died early too and from Norman’s airforce discharge letter may have been suffering from mobility problems by his early fifties. I imagine things could be quite tough. Leo was already working in the theatre prior to the war. How does Norman’s photo compare to the boy in the family photo? I think they definitely have a resemblance.

    Yes – there was Norman Fredrick Webb – Carl Webb’s nephew and then there was Norman Frederick Webb, the Japanese speaking cryptographer, based at Central Bureau. Norman Frederick & Linda Webb née Paton both have NAA files that have not been digitised. A relative (niece) seeking information on Linda in the 1990s was given information on Norman Fredrick Webb, Carl Webb’s nephew, who was a leading aircraft man, before leaving the airforce to drive buses for his father. I hope the niece got to the bottom of the mix up!

  278. David Morgan on January 21, 2023 at 10:47 pm said:

    @Nick

    I had kept the Somerton Man in the back of my mind for years. I found Mons and didn’t continue. But when I heard they had the DNA and Abbott was about to come out with the ID I thought I’d see if my prediction was correct. I contacted all the experts on the Rhona attack I could find via a military publisher. They all sent me pictures of Mons thinking it was some Uni project. I think Pat found Mons in an Austrian newspaper so I kept looking for his parents etc. But I could only find Monsbergers.

    Searching Trove turned up Monz – the preacher in legal fights in the 1920s in Australia. I sort of put 2+2 together to make 5 and thought that might be the link. I researched the 1999 Guardian article on Woomera with the Nazis working there and thought if you wanted an instructor for guided bombs he was the expert.

    All the photos of Mons were better likenesses to Carl than say Roy (with Betaface) and even Carl’s clay death mask. Though it never said they were the same person. They even had the same huge hands and extremely neat fingernails. Also Mons had the technical background like Carl. He used to perfect the flying of guided glide bombs. He also flew long-distance trips – I thought maybe Australia – working for the other side with Buesst.

    So they weren’t just physical doppelgangers they had the same type of brains. Mons also appeared when Carl disappeared to Monbulk. It seemed like a fit.

    The Rhona incident also remained top secret until about 2000. All the crew were told never to speak about it or face court martial. So Mons could disappear if he had survived. It was a very strange incident where all the life belts were really old stock. Like it was a set-up. The crew were mostly new Indian guys who didn’t know the ship so they could have had locked holds with a 1000 bodies in ready for the sinking and if they had Mons on the other side ensuring they only attacked the Rhona – so they could detect the attack signals and work out the codes used for the glide bombs. I think they used a form of frequency shifting to make it hard to detect. Perhaps even before Hedy Lamarr invented it.

    The stories of Mons vary from him ditching in the sea to landing in Algeria and his plane burnt out. It all seemed like a good fit. But alas just a good story.

  279. poppins on January 22, 2023 at 5:43 am said:

    Thanks Jo, I hadn’t seen Norman Webb’s NAA file, most interesting, and there we have the obligatory photo. H’mm, he also looks similar to the lad in the photo, however he does appear to have the attached earlobes like Carl had, I could be wrong though.

    Thanks David Morgan, that’s exactly what I wanted to find out and see, well done, good on ya. And along with Jo I’d be interested to see a comparison with Norman too, that’d be great.

  280. David Morgan on January 22, 2023 at 11:11 am said:

    @Poppin I only have Norman, Leo and the child to compare and the software says not a match for either but I think the child picture has too much shade around the eyes for it to measure the distance between the eyes etc. A key part of facial ID.

    But using Betaface I would say Norman is ‘more like’ the child than Leo. If we restrict it to being only one of those two because of the Christian connection – they were both RC – then my guess would be Norman. But they both are very alike in terms of their faces.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AjrbmqawXlcPuX2yzK-YmQilXwXYEnHR/view?usp=sharing

  281. Jamie S. on January 22, 2023 at 3:20 pm said:

    David Morgan:

    I agree with you that the adult Leos do seem to be a match. And (having now seen the military photos of all four cousins in question) I am still confident that the boy in front is Russell’s, just as I am still of the opinion that if a Keane lad is present, he’s rather the fellow sat farthest to the left, behind Eliza. Have you tried comparing anyone to that chap, or is the image quality too poor? I will say that the way his smile seems to extend farther out on the left side than the right strikes me as quite similar to adult Jack’s grin, though I suppose it could instead be Leo.

    I don’t think we should rule out that the frontmost boy could be Charles Richard. What do you think about the lounging lad’s resemblance to Charles’ military photo versus to his brother Norman’s? My understanding from loosely following the conversation here is that their mother Amy having been present means that the picture must have been taken in 1929 or earlier, as she died that year. That would mean that, if the boy in front were Charles Richard, he could have been as old as 12. If it were Norman, he couldn’t have been past eight.

  282. David Morgan on January 22, 2023 at 8:19 pm said:

    Jamie S

    I don’t know the answer if Norman is 8. Jo suggested 1933 so Norman was 12. I had thought around 1930. It is a real dilemma. I don’t see him as Charles Richard and Betaface gives him a low score for a match.

    Norman is 73%, Leo 63% and CR 62%.

    It is not absolute proof without more images of each person. But it gives an indication that Norman is the most like the young boy.

    If the dead person is in the image and it is Norman what does that mean. A fake picture?

  283. Peter Davidson on January 23, 2023 at 3:06 am said:

    Nothing yet discovered about Mons genealogy at present
    https://www.geni.com/people/Major-Rudolf-Mons/6000000185771198827
    And he does appear to be too young, and he has a different chin, so he looks unlikely

  284. Jamie S. on January 23, 2023 at 4:54 pm said:

    David Morgan:

    Rather than the picture being a fake (and assuming that Pete Bowes’ exchange with Stuart Webb did actually take place as written), I think it’s more likely either that Stuart’s reported claim about his great-grandmother being in the photo is right and therefore the gathering definitely predated the ’30s (I would lean toward this possibility as it is his family after all), or that he was simply and honestly mistaken (in which case the picture could possibly have been taken later).

    If Stuart is correct, that’s not to say that the frontmost boy couldn’t possibly be young enough to be Norman; kids come in all shapes and sizes, and being the closest to the camera of course makes this one appear larger than he otherwise would. I only meant to express that Charles shouldn’t be discounted. As you say, it’s difficult to be sure with no additional references, and on top of that we’re trying to compare the grainy image of a single child’s face to adult relatives while the same person could change a lot during the time in between. Grown Norman is a better match to the boy as per Betaface, but perhaps that’s simply because he looks much more boyish in adulthood than his brother? The two siblings may have looked quite similar to each other at the same age, right up until puberty hit Charles like a truck.

  285. David Morgan on January 24, 2023 at 4:01 pm said:

    @ Peter Davidson,

    It was a reasonable assumption to believe there was a link to the somerton Man and Mons.

    We ‘might’ all agree that pictures of Carl are Carl – hence we would agree Betaface has got it right. Carl the football player and party-goer is the body on the beach.

    So when we add Mons into the mix – Betaface says Mons is even more like Carl than Carl when he was younger. It would be reasonable to deduce that the Somerton Man was Mons “given no other data”.That was my original argument. Given the DNA research, I am willing to give up that theory. But it is still intriguing how Betaface believes Mons is a doppelganger of Carl so why not another human believing Carl was Mons?

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uZxRyJUTjBp4E0Qta0lECh-_UNsv2mwe/view?usp=sharing

  286. milongal on January 24, 2023 at 9:39 pm said:

    @David M:
    I don’t know what algorithms betaface uses (and I assume the ‘beta’ implies it’s a little experimental) but what makes 75% a match (other than betaface outlines it green)?
    If you use the tool to search the image against part01 of wikipedia, you get the best match at 82.7% (against a watercolor painting called the “Three fellahin”), and matches an actor from the era (James Gregory) at 80.8% (it also matches a picture of text at 80.4% and sheetmusic at 78.7%).
    I’m not saying the matching is totally useless – but I’d be very careful about the conclusions I make based purely on the match percentages – especially when they’re lower than 90%…

    @Peter Davison: I notice there’s a geni entry managed by you on Pavel Fedosimov saying ‘missing presumed dead circa 1948’. Despite what others might say, there is plenty of (almost continuous) record of Fedosimov at different postings (from memory UK, Libya) through the 1950s and his attendance (along with his wife) at IATA conferences through the 1960s. I know I’ve definitely noted them on this site repeatedly and have argued it over at TS@BS when comments haven’t been moderated out, and the argument seems to reduce to “but those ones must be someone else, possibly someone using the same alias”.
    Claims that he was never seen after boarding the Podeba are demonstrably false (and propagated to suit a particular agenda – that I assume now even most former proponents of it have abandoned).

  287. milongal on January 24, 2023 at 9:47 pm said:

    Addendum: Part02 of the wiki is even better – he matches Putin 4 times at 82%, 79.6%, 79.5% and 79.1%.
    Interestingly, the picture only matches other versions of itself (part 5 of wikipedia pic db) at 89.4 and 89.3% (and a map at 78.5%)

    So my point is – the tech is less than perfect, and while it might give some interesting comparisons….

  288. John Sanders on January 25, 2023 at 2:02 am said:

    Gordon Cramer: C. 3 = Extract of book on barbiturates. The reference is clearly mentioned in the numbered (3 to 18) list of exhibits, plain as day. How anyone familiar with Derek Abbott’s ‘The Tamam Shud Case Coronial Inquest’ could have missed it is beyond belief.

  289. John Sanders on January 25, 2023 at 3:01 am said:

    ….preceding exhibits marked ‘C.1 & C.2’ refer to supplementary items found to be on the body at time of discovery on 1/12/4 and Dr. Dwyers ‘Tooth Chart’ compiled during his post mortum examination on 2/12/48.

  290. Peter Davidson on January 25, 2023 at 5:12 pm said:

    Milongal
    None of the archived material in the IAEA actually have the first names for the USSR delegat only P.I. Fedosimov
    In correspondence from the IAEA archivists in regards to not having a photo, they only refer to P Fedosimov. None of their records mention his first name.
    In all the comments I’ve looked at from you today on both here and elsewhere on the subject, you never mention his wife nor provided proof of the claim. Each archived document following your leads don’t have the full name nor his wife’s name mentioned. Indeed the IAEA attendance Archives specifically, he is one of the delegates who has never been accompanied by his wife. Although I had located 2 entry records for his wife to the USA, I have yet to find one of her exit.
    I’m still waiting for a Geni.com researcher of Soviet records to find his death certificate or notice. Once there’s a date of death, the Genealogical record will be updated. Likewise if we can a last confirm that P I Fedosimov is the same person then I can alter the record. If anyone has found issue from his marriage please let me know so I can add them. Likewise I’m still awaiting the discovery of a birth record so I can add his parents and siblings, but at this point it appears more and more likely that the names used by him and his “wife”, if he was ever really married aware creations of the NKVD. None of this would change whether he is a candidate for SM or not. If he was, then I can only imagine that he’d be looking for Croker, however she’d already left Adelaide with her husband to work with Oliphant in Birmingham and wouldn’t be returning to Somerton until 1950. A bit of bad luck that, if such was the case, an out of date address list of trusted double agents.
    Anyhow, any leads to any documentation to complete his tree would be appreciated.

  291. poppins on January 26, 2023 at 7:45 am said:

    Do we know where Norman went to school; or where his parents lived when he was around that age? Thanks …. am obsessing about the uniform at this point.

  292. Poppins on January 26, 2023 at 7:59 am said:

    In my newspaper searches I’ve noticed the Essendon Gazette from days of old is obsessed with the Mayor and Council ….. looked through a couple more reels to add to my portfolio of searches:
    2-7-1931 to 28-09-1933,
    4-8/1927- 27-61929 – nothing found yet, lots of group photos, the Town Clerk is in a lot of photos but alas and woe it’s Mr Wellington …. will do more research on when Leslie was Acting/Town clerk …. but wait, don’t be alarmed, there’s gonna be something popping up soon, I just know it … the search continues for Glady and Leslie, they will be found, I will make it so. Conditions apply.
    PS: If anyone’s looking for info on the Salmon’s, Mrs Puckle, Fentons or Gilbertson’s of Essendon, or footy pics, there’s heaps of photos of ’em in there.
    Jo, I messaged newspaper about a news story re the Scott’s and Somerton man but heard nothing back … ah well, gave it a try.

  293. poppins on January 27, 2023 at 5:59 am said:

    Gladys Scott, found her in the Gazette of 1946. Sorry, it printed out quite dark, tried to lighten it.
    https://imgur.com/QqXLLAf

  294. Poppins – she looks to me like the lady in the white dress on the family photo, they have the same chin. I’m wondering then which one could be Amy Webb, who would be of a similar age.

  295. @ Poppins- it’s interesting that only Gladys’ sisters and husband are mentioned in her obituary – two of her brothers are known to be dead and the other hasn’t been heard from for several years. And yet, Charlie’s legal claim on Gladys’ estate is treated seriously, indicating that there was no sense that he was dead.

    No one is sufficiently worried that they report Charlie missing, to our knowledge.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71665444?searchTerm=Gladys%20May%20Scott

  296. David Morgan on January 27, 2023 at 5:01 pm said:

    @milongal,

    I agree you have to be careful with the betaface scores. But if you capture the image and test it in comparison you may find the rogue artwork doesn’t detect as a face or give the same score.

    Reasonably we would eliminate rogue finds – like in a factory quality control we would extract pink peas and bin them. Also, the next step is to find more images of the same person to test.

    In the case of Mons, his various images gave consistently high scores, but some did fall into the red zone but still with reasonably high scores e.g. higher than Roy v Carl.

    I used to use MsAzure which did give a better comparison of match and mismatch but they don’t have a free online test these days. Other site demos simply show the match score – i.e. they have to be assessed to be the same person. That is annoying because you could have a score of 0.49 eliminated but a score of 0.5 accepted as a match.

    It is a shame Betaface doesn’t retest each find as a face. To some extent Pimeyes also searches and finds various image doppelgangers – but then when you save and test them again they don’t match. I have tested quite a few pimeyes SM doppelgangers that don’t match.

    I also helped someone a few years ago develop a system called facehunter (based on Ms Azure) and then we created groups of images to test against. We would create a group of faces of the (e.g.) missing person and then test images against them. But he dropped the site, perhaps it was distracting him from his real business. The next idea was to find a face in group photos – but we never got that far.

    Betaface does have some successes – for example, I was able to find a doppelganger of the Isdal Woman sketch – I sent it to sketch artist Missal but although he would say it was quite like his drawing he wouldn’t agree it was exactly like his sketch – though facial ID (at that time!) did. She was a potential candidate because of her cultural origins and photo date. I also used the same to find a doppelganger of the 1970 sketch which lead to years of research on that find as she was in Norway at the right time. Also the same for the Oslo Plaza woman where I found multiple doppelgangers but with Sousie from the Banshees as the perfect doppelganger. She was also in Oslo just months before the OPW. She probably stayed in the same hotel.

    I used the sketch of of the Somerton Man by the police sketch artist to locate an article using Pimeyes. I wrote to him to say his sketch was exactly like the Somerton Man according to facial ID. I was hoping to learn how he did it. I think some form of tracing of the photograph.

  297. While searching for names of performers at the 1949 UN Arts Festival Adelaide, I found W. Robertson and his photo in a named group of all the members of the Adelaide ABC Studio Orchestra. He is a relative of Dorothy Jean Robertson who looks like John Comber Robertson. I have a long list of the audience of a performance on Trove. I have a list of all the Polish dancers. Other dancers names appear in Trove searches. The children performers were only described as being from a named school.

  298. Poppins on January 28, 2023 at 5:23 am said:

    Jo, 100 per cent agree with you, we can lock in the lady in white as Gladys – well picked out by Lurch earlier too, err, I was way off. It is very strange that Gladys’ brothers aren’t mentioned in the death notice, unless the sisters put another notice in somewhere else that’s not in the archives, hey, and I’ve got no idea who Amy would be at this point.
    Now I’m getting fascinated with that darn code in the book again, h’mm …..

  299. @ Curio – what is the relationship between W Robertson & Dorothy Jean?

    Also, when you found the census listing, do you know if Ruby Webb was also listed at 3 Elm Avenue Elsternwick? Murphy Street & Elm Ave are bout 500m apart, separated by the Nepean Highway. I wondered if Ruby & Dorothy were in the same neighbourhood.

  300. John Sanders on January 28, 2023 at 12:20 pm said:

    Gordon Cramer: waiting for a heads up on my C.3 exhibit Inquest explanantion if it’s not too much trouble old bean, with deniability by oversite accepted of course.

  301. Poppins on January 28, 2023 at 10:17 pm said:

    Ah, The Age newspaper online notices end in 1954 – may be more notices for Gladys’ passing in the library archives or if anyone has a paid prescription for old archives – will have a look – I see Russell Webb’s notices are in The Age.

  302. poppins on January 29, 2023 at 11:11 am said:

    Whoops, no need to go to library, they’re here online, The Age Newspapers after 1954, can’t see another Gladys notice, but good to know it’s accessible online.
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC

  303. John Sanders on January 30, 2023 at 6:52 am said:

    Gordon Cramer’s alleged unsigned Dr. John Bennett C3 letter to the coroner has all the hallmarks of it being a hoax; this gauged from it’s first mention in Dr. Dwyers testimony on page 13 of the inquest docs. In it at page he refers to an ‘extract’ C.3. from a book which he does not name but, which as can be seen from its C.3 exhibit listing (P47/49?) Is an ‘extract of book on barbiturates’. In that it has nought to do with Dr. Bennett perse, fingers might well point in a certain direction ie., to one who denied existence of any such reference in the inquest papers, as stated in @ TS/BS 26/1/2023 re Dr. John Berkely [sic] Bennett, a letter to the Coroner, posted by Gordon Cramer Jan 24th…It’s no wonder he didn’t reply to my two timely heads up reminders.

  304. @Jo I now have a signed 1949 clipping indicating 3 of the front row of 4 Scottish dancers posted with a link to the source. I have been awaiting a researcher returning results from that event (huge amount of material to examine including very many names and photos). That is another project to run, after I check if these 3 names are just stage names. The JF Cook could be a stage name for J Crick, and the Helen Vercoe could be a stage name or married name for a Robertson maiden name woman (the 3rd name is either Wendy Vinter or Virtue possibly another Robertson maiden name). The electoral role search did not find the 1949 Dorothy Jean Webb, but it was on a public tree on Ancestry dot com getting frozen on the lower blank half when trying to view the next page. You are welcome to try at your local library for yourself where they have Ancestry Library Edition free to the public (I login to my local library Ancestry Library Edition from home).

  305. @ Curio – thanks for info & good luck with your matching project.

  306. Some people have suggested that the photo is from 1928, when the Webbs took over the bakery. I think this could be on the money. I’d be interested to know if there were other photos – eg showing the bakery.

    Some of the people in the shot could be associated with the bakery – eg Jack Norris and Wally Scott and their families – eg a holiday picnic for family and bakery people.

    The location could be either Sandown Park or the recreation reserve next to Kelly and Lewis.

    Here is an aerial shot from 1958 – there is a lot of vacant land around the bakery on Springvale Road (near Virginia Road, leading to Sandown Park). You can see the edge of Sandown Park race track and the scrub land around the Five Mile Creek area to the left of the frame. The bakery is one block down from the train line – almost centre frame. You can see the Kelly and Lewis factory and the verdant plantings around it on the left (imagine them 30 years prior). There were rose bushes and cherry trees around the admin block – the factory was very proud of their gardens (from 1949, 50 year anniversary book). The rec reserve is not in frame – it is to the right of Kelly and Lewis.

    https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/2034421

  307. https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/2034422

    Aerial photograph of Springvale, 1958, with clear view of the Rec Reserve adjacent to Kelly and Lewis – potential spot for the family photograph?

  308. John Sanders on January 31, 2023 at 10:40 am said:

    Jo: got you locked in for 1925 at Rec. Res K & L Springvale. Change your mind you’ll get struck blind (mataphorically). If only Stewart Webb’s then 15 year old grandad Norm hadn’t been in the frame you might have something more to support your confirmation bias. Oh well!

  309. I’m with you Jo, taking on the new business in 1928…all speculation. Did we have an actual date of when the bakery changed hands? That could offer a clue to work out a likely spot for a picnic in Springvale from the aerials we know of. You would imagine it would be quite an outing for some in that photo.

  310. John Sanders on February 1, 2023 at 12:32 pm said:

    Lurch: from memory 1938 but as to the date, you’ve got me there but, as far as I can remember August or September.

  311. @jo i think most were also basing the date of the photo. on the age of the little girl she must have been 4 in that photo at least so 1928 might have been too soon?

  312. @Jo I could not find the female Scottish dancers in records under those names; however, I found Jock Forrest Cook and wife likely to be the missing third female Scottish dancer https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/151938558/jock-forrest-cook

  313. John Sanders on February 2, 2023 at 10:30 am said:

    Lurch: mid March ’39 was the official hand over month though Richard had been ill for some time so the bakery could have been run by the new owner Patterson for some time. Hope that helps with your picnic at Springvale solution, certainly can’t do my own Werribee choice any harm.

  314. @ Curio – you gave it a go :). The side roads are often interesting anyway, even if they wind up as dead ends!

    @ Lurch etc. The main reason I put forward 1928 is that Stuart Webb said that Amy Webb is in the shot. She died in June 1929.

  315. poppins on February 2, 2023 at 9:33 pm said:

    Do you think the older lady in the house dress looks like an older sister of Eliza or Richard? Do we know where they lived, if anyone’s done the family tree, that’d be great to look into where they lived? Cheers

  316. …it could be 1929 early spring at a push

  317. John Sanders on February 2, 2023 at 10:19 pm said:

    Jo: any other reason? I seem to recall you and others agreeing that clothing and group confirmation of certain attendees sealed the deal. You scoffed when It was put you that the date was way out, citing that Grandpa appeared to be 70, that Leslie Scott bn.1894, identified by his missing hand, was most likely to have been in his mid forties, that the fashion and poses hinted of a later era, or that the young Norm Webb bn. 1921, in the short duds (that fooled you) looked every bit of 14 or fifteen years. Not good enough deduction work by any of you lot, then to make matters worse you all jump on the Amy band wagon convincing yourselves that the Suart Webb, on salary was on target with his circa. 1925 family photo assertions …you all need a break… I kid you not!!

  318. John Sanders on February 2, 2023 at 10:21 pm said:

    Jo: any other reason? I seem to recall you and others agreeing that clothing and group confirmation of certain attendees sealed the deal. You scoffed when It was put you that the date was way out, citing that Grandpa appeared to be 70, that Leslie Scott bn.1894, identified by his missing hand, was most likely to have been in his mid forties, that the fashion and poses hinted of a later era, or that the young Norm Webb bn. 1921, in the short duds (that fooled you) looked every bit of 14 or fifteen years. Not good enough deduction work by any of you lot, then to make matters worse you all jump on the Amy band wagon convincing yourselves that the Suart Webb, on salary was on target with his circa. 1925 family photo assertions. You all need a break… I kid you not!!

  319. John:

    If you’re talking late 30s, what kids are in the frame, and who’s are they?

    And how does SM Charlie get from 33 years old looking 23 years old in life, end up looking 48 years old in death when he was 43?

    I’m not sure the effects of modern day crack are that harsh on aging lol. Doff must’ve really sapped it out of him.

    I must say though John, I’m still failing to see where in Springvale that the photo could have been taken. It makes much more sense that the Essendon, Springvale and Camperdown crew would meet up for a picnic somewhere near Werribee.

  320. John Sanders on February 3, 2023 at 1:12 pm said:

    Got me there Lurch, you’re the assumptions expert. What do you think about the Chinese balloon in the stratosphere over Montana? Wouldn’t surprise if it’s loaded up with agent orange or worse still leptospirosis.

  321. the young uns looked older back in the day- i was just going through a 1960’s year book and those teenagers looked old….i mean late 30’s 40’s by todays standards so it might be a sign of the times that carl looks older. dare i say Roy looks a lot older than his naa photos.

  322. John Sanders on February 3, 2023 at 11:30 pm said:

    …..by the way Lurch I’m talking ’36 no later as you suggest, which of course puts Carl at 30 not 33. Just to set things straight again, the Webb family photo IDs were made by Norm’s grandson? Stewart Webb, a nomadic surfie type, who’s also been able to convince gullible punters of his great grandma Amy’s presence at the family gathering circa. 1925.

  323. Byron Deveson on February 5, 2023 at 12:45 am said:

    JS, I think Stewart Webb is a retired RAN Captain. Curio, the extended Vercoe family scored many mentions on the SM pages a few years ago. I don’t know how Helen Vercoe might fit into all that, but it might be worth following up.

  324. @Byron Deveson Helen Vercoe wore a masonic pattern kilt in the 1949 UN Arts Festival newspaper photo, her father was Dr. W. A. Vercoe and the latest discussion comments on the 4th Feb 2023 news from Nick Pelling is about freemasons.

  325. John Sanders on February 8, 2023 at 10:46 pm said:

    Byron Deveson: care to elaborate on Stewart Webb’s naval career and antecedants for he and sister Christy going back to Carl’s nephew Norman Fredrick who had a rather big family from memory?

  326. John Sanders on February 8, 2023 at 11:23 pm said:

    Gordon Cramer: your prolonged silence on promised updates for your posted Dr. John Berkely [sic] Bennett’s alleged revelations to S.A. Coroner prior to the 1948 inquest is noted. Also your reluctance in responding to my polite queries re same speaks volumes as to it’s suspect origins.

  327. thedude747 on February 9, 2023 at 11:11 am said:

    Exactly what motive would Stewart Webb would have to deceive “gullible punters” Colonel?

    See Colonel your problem is you look at things from the wrong perspective.
    Life is all about perspective. Take a mate of mine, he exercises twice day , has sex almost every day and never works more than 10 hours a week yet he still complains about being in prison.

  328. Kara van P on February 9, 2023 at 2:55 pm said:

    Let us ask this:

    Who were Peter Garrett’s parents? When did they die in a house fire? What are his antecedents?

    What do people believe and what is the truth? Were his parents burned alive or burned to cover to their deaths at the hands of others?

    With apologies to the slaughter house intern who worked in the office for a few weeks to get out of ‘Nam.

  329. ‘Others’ being MI6 or ASIO, obviously, but evidently I have mixed up the incidents anyway and none of what I wrote happened.

    Apologies to those agencies. But not sorry that ASIO offed Carl.

    Why else won’t the coppers release the DNA and photos of the skeleton? Teeth please gentlemen!

  330. John Sanders on February 9, 2023 at 10:04 pm said:

    Dud: “Question Everything” be your spiritual leader’s motto and I can’t disagree with such wisdom; If you must have sex with your cell mate twice a day as part of your inhouse keep fit regimen that’s your business and, if a ten hour working week be good for the goose, you might follow his lead, assuming you’re the gander!

  331. John Sanders on February 9, 2023 at 10:35 pm said:

    Kara: I doubt that the coppers have any DNA or photos of the skeleton. I can see them having possibly sieved out a tooth or two from the grave, though separating SM’s from those of the other the other two inturments might be a big ask. Best we can hope for is that the toe tag found has some inscription to identify with.

  332. John Sanders on February 9, 2023 at 11:00 pm said:

    ….and by the way dud, your use of the collective word “Punters” in your general discourse at Tbt could lead to censure, it being a creative synonym associated moi.

  333. thedude747 on February 9, 2023 at 11:54 pm said:

    Get it right Colonel its EXCERSIZE twice a day and sex ALMOST every day.

    Anyhoo I’m still waiting to hear about Stewart Webbs motives to lie on national television.

    What possible motive would he have????? Yeah this guy just went out of his way to deceive the ABC and the Australian public at large. Anything else he did? the Kennedy assassination maybe??

    See its this kind of BS that stands in the way of any genuine progress on this forum.

    How about having the kahoonies to post a genuine hypothysis yourself one of these days you burned out old chicken licker.

    Peace and love from the dude

  334. John Sanders on February 10, 2023 at 9:53 am said:

    dud: Stewart Webb put forward as fact that his great grandmother Amy Webb was in the family gathering, this being proof that the related group photograph must therefore have been shot before her passing in 1929. If you and Jo want to believe Stuart’s assertion then welcome to the gullible punters club imo. I’ll own that said date is still subject to confirmation but I’m standing by my long held view that poor Amy Webb missed the show by five years or more.

  335. Poppins on February 10, 2023 at 8:22 pm said:

    Hey, just came across this wonderful piece of footage, it looks like Moonee Ponds Town Hall and Queen’s Park back in the day – is that Lesley, assisting the Mayor, in the black robe? He swats away a fly at one point with his right hand, can’t see a left hand. Great piece of footage donated by the Nicoll family to the ACMI collection.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKybqbrKKU8

  336. John Sanders on February 10, 2023 at 11:03 pm said:

    Dud: your offer of peace, being always welcom and made in earnest of course, I’m prompted to take back my snide ‘gooses gander’ pun on your sexuality which is none of my business. As for the love offering, thanks but no thanks; I’m a sticker for natural acts (well more or less) between mutually consenting adults in a Dome-
    stic arena.

  337. @ Poppins – that’s brilliant & I think you are spot on with Leslie! Great find!!

  338. Poppins – this is brilliant! And I agree, that has to be Leslie swatting the fly away! Queen’s Park has barely changed!

    @ Nick – Gould League of Bird Lovers badge warranted for certain here – a first, coloured, moving image of one of those from the family photo!

  339. Jo, I found it by chance, was looking for Moonee Valley racing back in the day to see if Carl was in any footage but came across that instead! I’m obsessing now to find out what year it was and what the event was. I reckon one of the ladies in the hats is Gladys too, near the Mayor. Need to identify the mayor first, then go from there for year …

  340. Poppins on February 15, 2023 at 4:39 am said:

    I think this could be the occasion of the film that Leslie’s in, it looks like Lord Mayor Lewellin and Mr Scott was probably fulfilling his role as Deputy Town Clerk, 20 March 1940, so before Carl’s married to Dorothy. Maybe he’s there in the crowd somewhere! The racetrack is just a hop, skip and jump away.
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203997388?searchTerm=troops%20march%20lewellin

  341. John Sanders on February 15, 2023 at 9:34 am said:

    I was thinking Essendon hundred year centenary and end of war celebrations 1st September 1945, but I’m happy to concede that March ’40 might be closer to the mark, flies being the clincher.

  342. Poppins on February 16, 2023 at 9:21 pm said:

    Sanders, where are your posts about Carl maybe going to see where Roy met his unfortunate end at the Malaya camp, can’t find at this point, and the Japanese toothpaste …. you might just be spot on, I know I read it somewhere, am currently getting fascinated with the idea. Need to explore in more detail the ANA series of departures/arrivals and shipping. There’s a very good Facebook page dedicated to the 2/29th Battalion.

  343. John Sanders on February 16, 2023 at 10:35 pm said:

    Poppins: over the years, way before the Carl Webb phase, I posted frequently on the most unusual presence of that particular brand of toothpaste, it’s place origin and proof? of manufacture in 1948. I did my best to point out that it was likely to have been purchased by a member of the BCOF occupation forces or someone off a ship servicing their needs, even wrote a possible case scenario to that effect. I never was able to promote even the slightest degree of interest. More recently, maybe September or October ’22, I raised the subject of 2/29 Btn’s. brief history on which I was quite knowledgeable, in response to David Morgan’s query of doubts about Roy Webb’s interrment but, turns out he had lost his interest by then. Not so long ago I made mention of the Justice W. WEBB international inquiry into Japanese POW & Civilian mistreatment in SEA and later associated War Crimes trials arising therefrom circa. 1943/48. Seems folks were too deeply involved in other sideshow issues to develop interest in such off thread frivolity. As to where you might locate such trivia amongst my thousands of posts, sorry CM search indices are becoming way too complicated for me to fathom though I understand there is some cipher key to open the pandora’s box available to a selected few.

  344. John Sanders on February 17, 2023 at 3:39 am said:

    Poppins: a few conkydinks that I have mentioned before to little or no effect in hope they might now serve to raise the level of interest to those more inclined towards your less provocative inclinations. Let us know what you think!

    1. Roy Webb’s 2/29th Btn. C.O. in Malaya (KIA) was Colonel John ROBERTSON Vic.
    2. UN appointee Chief Justice William WEBB assigned to investigate all Japanese attrocities in 1943. From ’46 to ’48 he sat on the Tokyo hearings and was known
    to employ numerous Webbs on staff. NAA has extensive digitised accounts on line.
    3. On 29th November 1948 judge WEBB flew into Essendon on BCOF commander General Hector ROBERTSON’s B24 Liberator flight his with staff and subordinates.
    4. Dorothy ROBERTSON’s 2nd cousin Dr. John Bennett made death pronouncment on the Somerton Beach body at Royal Adelaide Hospital on 1 December, 1948.
    5. Carl WEBB’s brother-in-law Gerald Keane employee of J. C Williamson was likely at opening night event Adelaide 30th November 1948, as costume maker and special affects man to designer Ken Rowell. HD thread and sewing/cutting/marking tools with Keane tie etc. part of kit left at station cloak room on 30 November 1948.
    6. Body showed signs of having had feet and hands prepped by professional such as estranged wife Dorothy, known to be in South Australia, possibly Adelaide.

  345. David Morgan on February 17, 2023 at 7:55 am said:

    Carl’s hands were manicured as a child. That was unlikely to be Dorothy. So perhaps his hand manicurist was his mother or sister. It was likely something his dad insisted on to prevent human broken nails from appearing in his bread.

  346. David Morgan on February 17, 2023 at 8:00 am said:

    @js,

    My logic on Roy not being dead was his name appearing on a birth certificate after his death for his ‘daughter’ Brenda. Roy the ghost dad. There was also the Greek migrant who arrived in Melbourne and went by the name of Roy Webb.

  347. @ David and JS

    We don’t know who Brenda’s father was and her birth certificate isn’t available (100 year rule). Roy is listed as her father on her death certificate (marriage certificate too?) – so it seems that grew up thinking this was so.

    Brenda was adopted by the Parrys when Ruby died. Both Ernest Parry and John Ivor Gavey were members of the Freemasons Lodge of Euclid in Prahran in the 1940s, so there was probably a Gavey-Parry family link – perhaps the Parrys were godparents?

  348. Poppins on February 18, 2023 at 9:33 pm said:

    JS this will probably get you frothing at the mouth, but how do we know it was Japanese toothpaste? Is it named in the inquest, or is there just that one fuzzy picture of the case contents? I’ll have a look at the inquest while I have breaky.
    Thanks for all the info, I’ll get cracking on looking through the ANA for stuff.

  349. Roy Webb was reported missing and then found as a prisoner of war in the Malay camp as far as anyone is concerned he did not return to Australia. Brenda was born in 1943. She is mentioned in the Joe Gavey’s orbituary.
    the question is how did Ruby think that she could pull off saying that her child was Roy when he had been deployed since 1940- or was he?
    was Brenda born earlier?
    Is Roy the Somerton man and Carl the POW?
    both children of the Parry/Gavey /Webb lineage committed suicide.

  350. John Sanders on February 18, 2023 at 10:48 pm said:

    Poppins: quickest way to get some perspective as to the distinctive Lion brand toothpaste tubes can be had at the SM/BS Suitcase Contents page, which may point to it’s being of Japanese manufacture. Lion brand was made only in Japan before WW2 at a number of factories including Hiroshima (Kure) where our BCOF troops were based, and it had been popular in Asian Countries alongside its main competitor Darkie Blackface, though not in Australia where brands like Sensodine, Colgate, Ipana and Pepsodent had the market share. One more very SM significant piece of information is that in 1948 Lion introduced it’s own fluride product onto the market and may also have been available in Singapore, Malaya, Thailand and Hong Kong. Such a pity that the only shot of the distinctive blue/white tube from the Keane suitcase (circa 2000+) is blurred and doesn’t quite align with those of a more modern type placed alongside it for comparison. Good Hunting anyhow.

  351. John Sanders on February 19, 2023 at 4:50 am said:

    Poppins: a couple of my previous references to the Japanese toothpaste can be found on the Thomas Lawrence Keane thread on 6/7/16 & 29/11/18. I seem to recall doing a much more detailed spread back then but in those days admin was more particular with what it chose to post and rightly so.

  352. John Sanders on February 19, 2023 at 9:25 am said:

    Em: your idea has been raised before, either by you or David Morgan. It may sound far fetched but, close siblings swapping identities to avoid or enable military service is not unknown. I note that Roy Webb preferred getting a civil Will drawn up in favour of Ruby rather than waiting to have it done for him by the army admin. I’ll give it some thought if that’s what the theory demands.

  353. John Sanders on February 19, 2023 at 10:48 am said:

    Em….too complex as it would need to involve more people than could keep a secret and that includes Dorothy and other Robertsons. That’s not to say that it wasn’t a non family entity that Roy did the swap with and he took off. Others wouldn’t have to know, that is until early ’42 when the family were notified by the army that their relative was missing in Malaya.

  354. David Morgan on February 19, 2023 at 12:46 pm said:

    @EM

    Do you really think they found a neat little grave for Roy Webb in the jungle for a Japanese POW. That they had his dog tags and then dug him up and moved him to the war grave site. I find it hard to believe. Most bodies in jungle settings are stripped by insects and ants within a week or two. You would have bones – at best. If the grave was shallow it is likely bigger animals dragged off bones etc. I believe WW2 war graves are commemorative rather than forensically accurate. They may have got lucky a few times and they publicized those. Modern techniques are a million miles away from post-war techniques. They would probably DNA check the body.

    I still think it is possible Roy was pretending to be Carl. It would be interesting to compare Roy’s handwriting with supposed Carl documents with HAT software.

  355. @DM just wondering how they got the cardiac beriberi cause of death if no body was found?
    in terms of Ruby’s pregnancy – Roy embarked august 1941 so technically Brenda should have been born 05/ 1942 unless Ruby delayed registering her….

  356. also there is a curious period where Roy is missing for a month after being in an evacuation station then turns up as a POW in a the death camp.
    By the way
    Roy Webb’s name will be projected onto the exterior of the Hall of Memory on:
    Sat 25 March 2023 at 5:36am
    https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1692574

  357. David Morgan on February 19, 2023 at 10:09 pm said:

    @Jo

    The thought that occurred to me was Brenda was Carl and Dorothy’s child. Dorothy seems to have persuaded a judge to pay her maintenance as a wife with a job. With a strange amount of £1 and 10s. Usually, they paid 10s for a child. After 1946 we know Dorothy was saying she was a chiropodist in the electoral role i.e. she had a job.

  358. Not convinced at this point that it is the Japanese brand toothpaste. Could be, might be, just need a better match for certainty …. hey I’m pedantic, forgiveness. It’s baffling that they didn’t name the brand, what’s that all about.
    Thanks for the links JS, super interesting
    https://imgur.com/OQFaPbQ

  359. John Sanders on February 19, 2023 at 10:30 pm said:

    Em: AWM have ammended Roy Webb’s cause of death from “starvation and neglect”, or more specificaly “Berri Berri/heart Failure” assessment to “died of Illness” which would also meet the more generally accepted “died of natural causes” so as not to offend sensitive social norms, or their generous Japanese donor base.

  360. John Sanders on February 20, 2023 at 9:03 am said:

    Poppins: I can’t recall who came up with the brand and Jap origin, it was always a given and yet early Sapol descriptions of the suitcase contents didn’t refer to it specifically which is rather strange. Got a feeling it may have been brought into play by Feltus or Cramer in their ‘Inner Sanctum’ & FB days when photos of the so called “discarded” suitcase.first appeared. We can agree that whilst the colour and tube shape compare favourably with the original flouride brand, the Lion logo itself can’t be seen in the blurred detail of the one pictured.

  361. @ David – Brenda was not considered to be a Webb child in the terms of Gladys Scott’s probate document. Russell Webb’s children received an inheritance as their father had died. If the family had believed that either Roy or Carl was Brenda’s father she would have been given a share of her aunt’s estate. I did wonder about Dorothy and Ruby living so close to each other but this may have been a coincidence & I don’t know when Ruby moved to Elm Avenue Elsternwick.

  362. Touching on another subject more specifically Tibor Kaldor. What are the likelihood that Carl Webb was a case if mistaken identity? That who ever, if TIbor’s death was not a suicide, intended to kill Tibor and mistook Carl for him. If that is the case then Carl most likely was staying at the Hindley Street Hotel. So when Jo Thomson reaction to the bust- which looks similar to the SM one-would be a reaction because she knew Tibor and not Carl. Just a thought

  363. Poppins on February 20, 2023 at 8:49 pm said:

    JS, yeah, I don’t think it’s Lion as theirs seem to have a square frame around the tube, Carl’s one doesn’t, but I am now sufficiently obsessed with finding out what it is, can’t do much about it now. I put magnified glasses on and it looks like a word across the blue at the top, I can see the letter U, appears to be the second letter.

  364. milongal on February 20, 2023 at 8:51 pm said:

    I’ve often thought that Jo’s reaction could be explained by the bust *not* being who she expected to see but never considered Tibor in the mix.
    It is interesting to think that the official pictures look quite different to the bust (which I guess might be part of the reason for Jo’s reaction) – and there is perhaps a Tibor similarity in the bust that you don’t really get in the pictures.

  365. @ Poppins – I’m pretty sure that the soap dish & soap were Rexona – the bright green colour was used for their product packaging and has been continued into contemporary times. Some of the physical culture people promoted their products – eg Mrs Wilson of phone number x3239 in Brighton, Victoria was a Rexona beauty contest winner in the 1930s. The soap was created by Alice Sheffer, wife of the owner of the Sheldon Drug Company in Sydney in the 1900s, later taken over by Unilever.

    https://www.rexona.com/au/about-us/

  366. https://henryformanatkinsondentalmuseum.mdhs.unimelb.edu.au/

    @ Poppins – someone here might be able to identify the toothpaste! Harry Atkinson used to run tours & tutorials for student groups until he was 100! (Now deceased). I had a look at their digitised items but couldn’t see a match.

    It’s interesting that zinc toothpaste tubes were sometimes repurposed & melted down!

  367. Sanders may be on to something

    https://www.lion.co.jp/en/company/history/list/

    See 1948 toothpaste – was the same or similar brand available in Australia?

    The toothpaste was launched in 1948 which places it in the post war period.

    Japanese soldiers were issued with tooth brushes and bags of tooth powder

  368. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 3:50 am said:

    Jo : correct. Dorothy’s ’55 adhesions operation at Wallaroo hospital (where she worked), was consequence of internal scarring from an earlier cesarean section at Kadina hospital and included a perfunctory appendix removal. Assumption that the original comments amounted to a “dome reference” is quite wrong nonetheless. The proceedure and it’s determination was posted by a humble old pet poodle; so correct accreditation in future would be much appreciated.

  369. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 7:06 am said:

    Doco on disgraced former S. A. Chief Pathologist Dr. Colin Mannock coming soon on Utube, compliments of Flash Gordon Cramer, author of the recent bogus Dr. John Berkely Bennett’s June ’48 poison pen letter to S.A. Coroner Cleland. Breaking news for dullards like some currently hot on trail of Jessica Harkness perhaps but, not to those who’ve been following the story for over fifteen years. “Good on you Gordon” just what we need to break the tedium.

  370. Poppins on February 21, 2023 at 8:15 am said:

    Good on ya Jo, I’d been wondering about that green soap box too, Rexona, goodo, I was planning on obsessing about that next!
    The toothpaste could be the Lion brand for sure. Just found this Macleans one, looks a bit like it too, but can’t find an image of the full tube, and don’t know the year of this, but hey, quite similar at the top.
    https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/macleans–123989795960901745/

  371. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/124034451/

    @ Poppins

    Picture of the whole tube, Australian ad, McLeans, 1941.

  372. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/124034451/

    @ Poppins

    Picture of the whole tube, Australian ad, McLeans 1941

  373. https://www.justinwitwick.com/

    Not sure what to make of this! A Somerton Man Musical!!?? I just can’t really see what there is to sing about!

    It’s a sad historical cold case packed with interesting side routes, no stories of redemption here, no love, no winners… Unless it’s the story of Derek meets Rachel and the wonders of forensic science…

  374. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 11:55 am said:

    Black cap v white cap, nah that ain’t too similar but I’ll own that the tubes have similar detail and colour. The nips once imported theirs from Germany, figures!

  375. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 12:11 pm said:

    Dud: Harkness family lived at 82 Como Pde. Mentone from 1932 and beyond from memory.

  376. Poppins on February 21, 2023 at 8:33 pm said:

    Great find Jo, h’mm, it does look remarkably similar, what do ya reckon, in 1941. JS, yes, no black top, darn it …. however, I really want it to be the Japanese brand, that would be such a clue re being in Cottesloe. Okay, I’ll send of a message to the companies and see if they can assist with their 1948 Australian products, worth a try, hey.

  377. Ok, I’m not one to knock artistic endeavours. I’ve offered my services to the Somerton Man Musical producers, as an aggrieved Doff, outside Bromby Street:

    “You have a temper, me I’ve no jealousy!

    Withering, withering, withering hopes!

    Old Charles, you bastard, let me in through the french door please!
    It’s so co oh oh old with this cold war brewing woah!”

    As per our old friend Steve’s suggestion the Society of Illumination Engineers will sing, “There is a light that never goes out!”

    Sanders, they’ll be in touch with you shortly… Poppins, keep that umbrella handy! Pete Bowes doing a well practiced salty tenor? Nick?

  378. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 9:57 pm said:

    Poppins: sure can’t hurt, though I doubt that there’d be too much interest in Japanese imports so soon after the war, especially those likely to harm your family or rot ya chompers..Cottesloe?

  379. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 10:09 pm said:

    Jo: I’m not able to pick up on either of your ads…if that’s what they are?

  380. John Sanders on February 21, 2023 at 10:28 pm said:

    I said Como Parade dud, not Como Street, there’s one of them in Alphington, another Webb or Keane hangout from memory. Get the message right first time and I won’t have to make you look a goose.

  381. JS – try this one:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17723345

    McCleans peroxide…

  382. thedude747 on February 22, 2023 at 5:02 am said:

    Colonel I recommend you pick up a copy of “the subtle art of not giving a f#@%k.

    I genuinely think you would benefit from reading it.

    You may learn that blowing a pooper valve over such minutia as “Como parade” as opposed to “Como street” is a sad way to go about your daily life. Is it the only way you can feel important? or is there a deeper underlying hurt ?

    Your like a male version of the stereotypical “Karen” and it worries me greatly Colonel.

  383. thedude747 on February 22, 2023 at 5:10 am said:

    # Jo I reckon another Kate Bush number , the man with the child in his eyes, would slot in to the SM musical perfectly , sung by Doff or Jess,

    ” Nobody knows about my man
    They think he’s lost on some horizon
    And suddenly I find myself
    Listening to a man Ive never known before
    Telling me about the sea”

    Kate Bush

  384. John Sanders on February 22, 2023 at 7:04 am said:

    Em: just wondering how long you have been on the Charles Webb case, not years right?. Then there’s Carl’s slab mate Tibor Kaldor that Clive Turner (2) found at Vic. Hotel and set him up at West Terrace with company including Charlie Webb, Bill the Lower Saxon ‘butscher’ and George Geordie Webb, star Norwood footballer. What makes you think Gordon Cramer is on the mark with any of that unlikely gang of four. NB: you are posting as Ana at Tbt I presume!!

  385. Ayuverdica on February 22, 2023 at 7:45 am said:

    I had a little spare time so I thought I’d whip out the old snatchtop and see what you losers have decoded lately. Imagine my surprise to discover that this amounts to precisely nothing! Well, I am shocked. Perhaps the lame obsession with talking about Beryl Stansted’s in growing toenails or the time when Dorothy Jean Webb received a letter from Readers’ Digest might not be the most useful place to conduct your research. Oh, well. I’m the reason anyone on the webnets knows about Jestyn. Focus on Jestyn’s lies and Prosper’s malfunctioning tool.

  386. john sanders on February 22, 2023 at 9:01 am said:

    Jo.

    NO?. staring me straight in the dial b & w ‘ 41 SMH ad … “NOTE THE WHITE CAP”… Macleans Patented pure white nossle keeps the tooth paste fresh and clean from first squeeze to last … Macleans Peroxide tooth paste comes to you in big, fat, generous tubes. Test it and see what splendid value you get for your money!
    You tell us Dud 47, does that sound to you like an accurate description of the smallish black capped tube found (planted?) in the Keane suitcase between 1949 and circa. 2009.

  387. john sanders on February 22, 2023 at 9:09 am said:

    thedud.

    Better to feel important like a bird Colonel, then to be impotent like a dud goose, I guess

  388. @ the Dude

    Perfect! We should also include Annie Gavey Get Your Gun! And Prosper T (MG) singing “Jump in my car!” Perhaps Nick will do a quick intermission with “Computer Games” and Derek & Colleen “She blinded me with science”… And the Colonel will croon, “Dude, it’s Como Parade” (to the tune of Raspberry Parade)…

  389. David Morgan on February 22, 2023 at 1:40 pm said:

    ChatGPT’s contribution to the SM musical based on 2021 data:

    Chorus:
    Oh Somerton Man, we’ll sing for you
    Your secrets still remain, a puzzle to pursue
    Oh Somerton Man, who were you?
    The world may never know, but we won’t forget you

  390. @ Poppins & Sanders – so, the BLACK toothpaste cap may lead us to the Lion brand. Whilst the similar looking WHITE capped 1940s Macleans peroxide toothpaste was heavily promoted in the Eastern states, I wonder if the 1948 Lions fluoride toothpaste was available in WA? The tube doesn’t look like other 1940s brands eg Kolynos, Colgate, Euthymol…

  391. David Morgan on February 22, 2023 at 8:33 pm said:

    @Jo

    I wrote to Lions to ask when the ‘F’ product was available. Whether I get a reply???

  392. Poppins on February 22, 2023 at 8:52 pm said:

    H’mm, look at them bragging about their white toothpaste cap in that advertisement …. how very odd, but hey, it rules out my Macleans suspect …. but wait, maybe they went crazy in 1948 and released one with a novelty black cap – need to find a 1948 pic to be sure. Still, the Lion one has a frame right around the tube and Carl’s doesn’t.
    I tried to contact Lion’s but they wouldn’t accept my enquiry, lol, too many characters, had to fill in a form, kept modifying it but it wouldn’t accept.

    Haha, that musical is about a Russian spy found on Somerton beach, they obviously aren’t going with the updated version 🙂

  393. Poppins on February 22, 2023 at 8:53 pm said:

    Good on ya David Morgan, you made it through 🙂

  394. John Sanders on February 22, 2023 at 9:44 pm said:

    @ Jo & David Morgan: I’m really struggling to come to terms with your Lion’s availabilty WA which is highly unlikely and, why the need to trouble Kobayashi about their Lion ‘F’ product. We already know that from the company history on line ie.,1948.

  395. @ David Morgan- Ooo! Credit to you, Sanders & Poppins for any (fingers crossed) interesting answers!

  396. Poppins: “…and I’d have got away with a Somerton Man musical based on Russian spies if it hadn’t been for you meddling kids” etc etc.

  397. John Sanders on February 23, 2023 at 9:11 am said:

    Ipana Bucky Beavers: check out ‘German toothpast history’ on line; mostly black caps (SS) and no need to guess who their allies went to for black lion caps. By the way kids were you’se aware that beavers have yellow teeth, I kid you not.

  398. Ayuverdica Mistry-Harkness on February 23, 2023 at 10:48 am said:

    Don’t censor me.

    Or I’ll [do something sexually impossible]

  399. thedude747 on February 23, 2023 at 11:27 am said:

    Would anyone be kind enough to update me as to the discussion around the toothpaste and the “black cap white cap” dilemma.
    Ive tried to scroll back but its across a few threads.

    It does seem worth considering why Carl was carrying a toothpaste only available in Japan if that is indeed the case.

  400. David Morgan on February 23, 2023 at 3:34 pm said:

    @JS,

    The Lion brand may have only been available in certain countries at a certain time which would help locate him. If they said it was only on sale in Japan in 1948 that could indicate something, or perhaps he got hold of some stolen product while it was shipped to Japan.

    I’m certain even the police contact manufacturers to check details – like the thread he sewed on his clothing.

  401. David Morgan on February 23, 2023 at 3:48 pm said:

    @Jo,

    I will put my faith in Pat working out the Lion brand/other toothpaste. She is the product genius in cold cases.

  402. Poppins on February 23, 2023 at 9:32 pm said:

    If the ship bringing Carl back with his toothpaste docked in Fremantle he may have decided to stay there and find work and that would explain why he was last known to be in Cottesloe as it’s 8.5 k’s from Fremantle Harbour.

    Nick, haha …. however, I do think would make a great movie or series with the fair dinkum story, hey, starting with a close-up of mystery man’s hand holding newspaper reading the In Memoriam notice for Keane then you see him fold the newspaper and place it in the bin and walk off, just the back of him of course … not sure if that’s the end or start of said movie, h’mm ……….
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205671947?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FA%2Ftitle%2F809%2F1948%2F11%2F29%2Fpage%2F19598582%2Farticle%2F205671947

  403. @ Dude – we have entered brave new territory! The Colonel has put forward the notion that SM’s toothpaste was the 1948 Japanese Lion fluoride brand. I thought it could be Macleans peroxide, but they make a big deal in their 1941 adverts that not only are they a proudly British brand, they also supplied their product in a generously sized tube with a specially designed white cap! So the Colonel could be correct with his black capped little Lion tube observation. The question now is where was Lions sold? Please ask your centagenarian friends, neighbours and relatives if it was available in your neck of this sunburnt country when they still had their original teeth.

    Sadly my former neighbours died at ages 99 and 100. I wouldn’t have dared ask Geoff, the 99 year old. He was the sole survivor of his band of WWII brothers in PNG. He commandeered a boat and made his way back to Darwin… His family owned his home from the 1880s until two years ago! It’s not far from Bromby Street, so I’m sure he may have run into Carl & Doff a few times in the 40s, when he wasn’t around Rabaul! Eldrida the 100 year old was still in Prague and yet to make her way to Prahran, which has a similar Kafka like bohemian vibe, but with gangsters and bogans in the mix and lots of rénovateurs! They’re busy at work over at Geoff’s old place right now!

    On the subject of old Prahranians, it occurred to me that John Ivor Gavey, b1926, who died in May last year, may have been the last person to possibly know Charlie. Ruby Webb was his aunt and one of his fellow Lodge of Euclid brothers became Brenda Webb’s guardian when Ruby died.

  404. Poppins: hardly any of these damned mysteries seem to actually end, so you’ll have to make your own mind up. 😉

  405. John Sanders on February 24, 2023 at 1:36 am said:

    Poppins/Pelling: whilst some may see SM as being part of the ’40s Melbourne underworld, an interstate car thief, wife beater and general ne’re do well, my thoughts be otherwise. My own vision for a fit and appropriate ending to the Tamam Shud saga from the outset was penned more elequently by English poet Thomas Moudant (not Wally Scott) in his “The Call” circa. 1756-1753 which follows;

    “Sound, sound the clarion, fill the fife!
    Throughout the senual world proclaim,
    One crowded hour of glorious life
    Be worth an age without a name”.

  406. thedude747 on February 24, 2023 at 5:31 am said:

    Thanks for the update #Jo and for sharing the amazing story of Geoff. Sounds like a fair dinkum hero.

    With regards to the toothpaste I kind of remember seen g a photo of it as part of the contents of Carls suitcase but I could be wrong. Are we sure it was Lion brand or are we going by the black cap?

  407. @ Nick – I think you could squeeze a bit of story out of the toothpaste tubes? I think Kolynos had it right – according to Wikipedia their name was a combination of two Greek words, meaning “beautifier” and “disease preventer”. I noted earlier that the ratio of boot repairs to dentists in my 1934 edition of Sands and Mac Directory of Melbourne was around 10:1 in favour of the boot repairers… I’d be Lion if I didn’t admit to thinking that the Colonel may be on to something here! I’m McLeaning towards thinking he’s right about foreign toothpaste! He may have a Pearl Drop here! I’m wondering if Gerry Feltus or anyone else has ever noted this previously… Such a pity the tube was taken out of the filling cabinet and flossed away in 1986! I’m sure some one is rued by that!

  408. John Sanders on February 24, 2023 at 6:17 am said:

    Soon as you’ve all done and finished with the toothpaste, there another really interesting suitcase item worth contemplating. Though not readily identifiable to those unfamiliar with leather equine halter harness fittings, it stuck out like Boso’s bloopers when I first saw it in the pic with strap loop (or buckle) partly concealed. Misidentified by Gordon Cramer as being a magnifying “loup” with no lense. it is infact a “lead ring & cheekpiece strap” (blue & silver) which I once thought fit to include in several posts but no great acclaim, and so it remains a loupe to all intents. In my view it must once have belonged to someone familiar with nags or who had a pony as a kid and retained it, either for sentimental reasons or else put to alterative use. Someone like a bakers stable hand from the days when they had horsedrawn breadcarts for suburban deliveries around Springvale. Someone like Russell & Roy Webb or their “autistic” brother Carl.

  409. John Sanders on February 24, 2023 at 11:46 am said:

    Gordon Cramer of ‘Tamam Shud Blogspot’, by his suggestion that several former South Australian former Attorneys General and the incumbant, three Labour and one Liberal, may in their respective stints in office, may have been complicit in perverting the course of justice ie., “Collusion & Moral Corruption” based on the now running ‘Manock Documentary’, is perhaps “a bridge too far” imho.

  410. David Morgan on February 24, 2023 at 3:32 pm said:

    The pre-1948 Lion brand top is shown here

    https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs41636-018-0138-3/MediaObjects/41636_2018_138_Fig7_HTML.png?as=webp

    Dug up in a Japanese prisoner-of-war camp in the US.

  411. JS – the cheek of it! But I shan’t get stroppy! Wasn’t the loupe/neddy lead ring & cheek piece strap identified some time ago as part of a broken pair of scissors… of the type used by hairdressers?

  412. @ Pat – the colours & Australian availability are spot on, Lion is still a closer design match… We need a clearer photo!

  413. John Sanders on February 24, 2023 at 11:36 pm said:

    Jo: yeah there were the broken scissors too now you mention it. Some horses ass came up with that ‘Royal Gem’ even before GC’s prize winning loupe the loop. Ever seen scissors with protruding nodes in the finger hole. Their sole purpose was for securing a lead slip knot fast, whilst the length of doubled blue cord or leather off line affixed to the ring, was, at its other end connected or slipped over the cheek piece strap. Plenty of on line examples to be had that gives a better idea of what Im on about.

  414. John Sanders on February 25, 2023 at 12:08 am said:

    David Morgan: far as I’m aware there were no Japanese P.O.W. camps in the US., those few taken prisoner ending up in Australia at Cowra & Featherston NZ far as I’m aware. Of course there were the well documented internment camps in California, so perhaps that’s where your interesting black Lion cap was located.

  415. John Sanders on February 25, 2023 at 9:38 am said:

    Jo: not so fast there, I’m still “wondering where the yellow went” and now you seem to be confirming Lion’s availability in Australia. How so and whence?.

  416. John Sanders on February 25, 2023 at 9:52 am said:

    …..Oh, I see it now. That’s you telling Pat that her black & white SR brand with its black top is the right colour. Yeah sure, apart from the overall tube colour and design right?
    Take care maybe in order; seems Bozo and his bum licker are not impressed with this Japanese tootpaste irrelevance. They may also have company closer to base unless I’m mistaken!

  417. Is Carl Webb’ s death face the most circulated in the world?
    We had an artist do a portrait of him that looks nothing like him.
    Came kacross this on you tube. Now that we have more photos of the Carl would it be too much to ask if someone does a similar portrait of him. @Derek Abbott if you’re here

  418. Looks like Carl squeezes his toothpaste from the bottom, apparently this means obsessive-compulsive, thrifty and doesn’t like waste …. h’mm, sounds like what Dorothy was displeased with. If we can figure out how many brushes that little tube of toothpaste contributed to, it could tell us when he bought it (if it was from overseas) then narrow down ANA searches.

    PS: If any scriptwriters are wondering how Carl coming from WA is reading the Victorian newspaper, a man in a porkpie hat sitting next to him at the Adelaide station leaves it there and Carl picks it up.

    JS, is that loop thing near the toothbrush attached to the bottle thing? I need to look some more, haven’t obsessed about that yet.

  419. John Sanders on February 25, 2023 at 10:31 pm said:

    Poppins: you got it, under the red toothbrush. I wouldn’t take too much notice of the shape of the tube (the only one) lying on Gerry’s garage floor 45 years after the suitcase was recovered. A hundred inquisitve cops must have handled it over the years; the filth tend to be more alert/inqisitive than your average Jo when such oddities appear.

  420. Peter Davidson on February 26, 2023 at 2:39 am said:

    Darkie toothpaste used to have a black lid.
    This brand of toothpaste was common throughout South East Asia.
    I bought it at the NAAFI store in Butterworth when I lived there.

    Here’s and example of a recent tube which hadn’t changed much since the 1930’s.
    https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/1762495

    Colgate took over and renamed the brand Darlie. It’s even sold here.

  421. David Morgan on February 26, 2023 at 9:02 am said:

    @EM,

    The sketch of Carl Webb by Sketchcop can be proven to be 100% accurate against the body of the Somerton man with facial ID. For some reason, Abbott and the gang thought it made Carl Webb look like a criminal or a pirate. It is amazing how Lombrosian scientists can be deducing criminality from physical appearance.

    I did ask Sketchcop how he created it but I didn’t get an explanation. I suspect some form of tracing was involved for the facial landmarks to be so accurate. Scketchcop’s sketch v Carl is more accurate with facial ID than Carl v Carl younger.

  422. David Morgan on February 26, 2023 at 9:18 am said:

    @JS,

    OK yes, an internment camp where they were treated as POWs. Between 1943 and 1945, the Kooskia Internment Camp (KIC) in north central Idaho was home to 265 Japanese American men.

    It shows they were allowed Lion brand toothpaste to be imported from Japan with a non-white top before 1946. The colour of the toothpaste top was not conclusive of some trip to Japan in 1948 to find Roy. Just like the thread sewed on his jacket was not conclusive of some other trip to ‘thread-land’ origin.

    It suggests to me these were possessions of Keane that Carl inherited or may have been collecting from another Keane in Adelaide who had his POW possessions mixed up with Carl’s relative. He may have been trying to sort out a mixup by swapping Adelaide Keane items with Melbourne Keane items.

    https://link-springer-com.northampton.idm.oclc.org/article/10.1007/s41636-018-0138-3

  423. John Sanders on February 26, 2023 at 10:55 am said:

    Peter Davidson,

    Already identified Darkie toothpaste and dismissed it for obvious reasons. It having distinctive ‘black face’ packaging ie., no blue hue. Gotta call a spade a spade mate. Sorry.

  424. John Sanders on February 26, 2023 at 11:34 am said:

    David Morgan,

    Dunno mate, I wasn’t born. in those days importing luxuries like toothpast from a just defeated Japan sounds a tad Keane besides a fair percentage of the internees were American born and, no doubt American brands such as Ipana or better still, Pepsodent, “You’ll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with Pepsodent” would have been well known to the Japanese “yellow peril” in the 40s.

  425. Sorry forgot to share the link
    https://youtu.be/H8V64GDuZJs

  426. Poppins on February 26, 2023 at 8:44 pm said:

    Thanks Jo, ah, broken scissors – it’s in the 1949 inquest, just had a look …. whoops, I pushed the send button a bit too early!! It happens. So it’s looking like he was very thrifty, keeping half the scissors, hey, you never know when you’ll find another half somewhere I guess.
    PS: I’m gonna check out those docs this week.

  427. David Morgan on February 26, 2023 at 9:53 pm said:

    @js

    If you read the document it says it was explicitly a dark-coloured cap from a Lion brand toothpaste. They dug it up in the internment camp. I don’t suppose someone decided to plant a plastic cap from 1948 just to screw up the researchers or the Somerton man case.

    The cap colour doesn’t time limit it to 1948. It could have been from 1940 to 1947 but up to 1945 in the camp.

  428. David Morgan on February 26, 2023 at 10:16 pm said:

    @em,

    I don’t know how to put this to you but the photoshop creations are fantasy images as bad as AI images in terms of truth.

    This is my recreation which I know is far more accurate because I combined 3 portraits of Mary Queen of Scots. She had a double chin as an older woman.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Mhip7Taxo6sCrIQtaXnOYsO3igG0OoFA/view?usp=sharing

    If I could have got the death mask to register with facial ID I could prove it to you.

    Photoshop expert v 3 artworks by master painters. I think I know who I trust.

  429. David Morgan on February 26, 2023 at 10:24 pm said:

    Perhaps Carl was sharpening the broken scissors on a stone and then using it as a razor. Somewhat like a POW.

  430. John Sanders on February 26, 2023 at 10:41 pm said:

    Poppins: how does a (half pair?) of “broken scissors” mutate to a “loupe (with knobs and no lens) ” then metamorphosise to a readily identifiable “equine nose strap lead ring with halter (cheek piece) connect”?. When some old horses arse, knowing a pair long shots can’t both be right, takes the bit between his teeth, raises his whip hand and digs his heels in, to suss ot the truth; Thats how!

  431. milongal on February 27, 2023 at 12:08 am said:

    At some stage when JS first talked about horsies and how SM’s suitcase might fit in with them (a couple years ago) I took an obscure angle (it was so obscure I never really shared it) and looked at some horse racing (in particular I had a sort of idea that some of Prosper’s newspaper messages might have been related to some sort of betting/fixing).

    There was a whole bunch of nags(presumably from the same stable) with a Tudor prefix (Tudor King, Tudor Lass (from memory definitely sired by Tudor King), Tudor Prince, Tudor Gold). There was also a “Gold Watch” (and an Orawatch – I think Ora here is from the Italian hour, but someone who thinks they’re edjumacated might use Ora instead of Or for Gold from several languages))….
    But I don’t think I could find any trace of these horses being around in quite the right era (Some were early 40’s, others early 50s).

    Anyway, I don’t think it’s the right direction, but seeing as we’re talking horsies again I thought I’d mention it.

  432. @ JS
    Getting a bit concerned here – where did the bloody halter cheek piece come from and why has it never been noted by anyone but you? On the other hand there are quite a few mentions of broken scissors.
    Wouldn’t the blokes back in 1948 and or Gerry Feltus have made some note of foreign toothpaste that was not readily available in Australia? They made quite a big deal about the thread…
    And where did the idea that a photograph had been taken on Gerry Feltus’ garage floor come from? I don’t know exactly which years he carried out his investigations but do know that he interviewed Jessica Thomson in 2002. The suitcase and its contents were destroyed in 1986…

  433. Note also that SR Toothpaste had a competition running in November 1948, that offered generous prize money (this is advertised in small newspapers throughout Australia). This ad is from WA

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70530920?searchTerm=SR%20toothpast

  434. john sanders on February 27, 2023 at 6:28 am said:

    Poppins

    Seems you’re not alone in trying to get a fix on the broken scissors. Both Misca & GC were similarly perplexed in 2014 and nothing moved forward until 2016 when
    misca tentatively signed on to my equine solution (haven’t agreed on much since).

    “I have reviewed a list of items in the suitase and it would seem that there were two pairs of scissors. The pair in the sheath and a second pair that were broken. Has anyone ever seen a picture of the second pair???” – misca 19/9/14

    “Agreed two pairs of scissors and one was broken. In the first instance I thought that the circular/ring object was part of the broken scissors but have been unable to trace any scissors with the twisted black cord attached nor what appears to be ‘grips’ inside the circular part. The only thing that got close was a loupe – GC 19/9/14

  435. Poppins on February 27, 2023 at 6:54 am said:

    Interesting idea David Morgan.

    Sanders, now now, don’t blow a gasket … h’mm, so you’re talking about the ringed object? We have the scissors in a sheath and apparently there’s additional broken scissors – are you saying that’s not the broken scissors circled in pic? If it’s not, then where are the broken scissors? True it is not all the items mentioned at the inquest are available in the online images, fair enough.
    https://imgur.com/2nnQfjA

  436. John Sanders on February 27, 2023 at 8:04 am said:

    Poppins & Jo

    Probably an agenda or a gender thing, is our failure to comunicate, that being the case it’s hardly worth the effort to proceed further with old neddy’s halter rig. Also most doubtfu our mediator will intervene in the broken scissors, nose ring strap, or GC’s loopie loupe conundrum. So let’s say Hi Ho Silver Away OK!!!

  437. John Sanders on February 27, 2023 at 8:19 am said:

    David Morgan: and why, pray tell, would your “Carl” want to use broken scissors for shaving when he had a perfectly good cut throat razor mit strop in his travel case?…

  438. JS – the floor is all yours! Take it away! Let’s hear your best yarn on Neddy’s lost nose ring (cheek halter strap)…

  439. thedude747 on February 27, 2023 at 11:56 am said:

    Black caps and red herrings for mine. Like most details around the case things like this can get romanticised. One theory that pre date this forum was that SM was a traded time traveller. However Ive always strayed away from time travellers and says and sought the less exciting but far more likely mundane explanations around the case.
    So where one punter sees a lid that dont match and says there you go he was a POW who swapped identities with his brother or some such palaver , I see a black lid I think , well now days everything is disposable but as a lad I can recall ice cream coming in tins that were reusable as well as fly spray pumps and biscuit tins. Vegemite jars became drinking glasses and yes even caps and lids for various household items were reused from one item to another provided they fit. You didn’t throw suff away and you improvised as anyone on here born pre 1970 will clearly remember. The likelihood IMHO is if the lid doesn’t match a local brand is that its probably just the toolmaker swapping another lid on his toothpaste tube cos the other one rolled down the sink. Not as exciting but far more likely.

  440. David Morgan on February 27, 2023 at 8:26 pm said:

    @JS,

    The broken knife and the broken scissors. They are not the tools of a Swinburne educated engineer. They seem more like items of a POW – possibly keepsakes of Roy.

  441. John Sanders on February 27, 2023 at 9:57 pm said:

    Jo: may as well try flogging a dead horse, no thanks. When you’re all done with the halter thingo and my Lyon toothpaste with it’s don’ mean nothin’ black cap, give em to Em Webb’s mob to chuck in the casket with the rest of SM’s stuff..

  442. @ David – Charlie’s Swinburne education was equivalent to a senior high school level. Very few lower middle and working class people had access to university or higher education in Australia in the 1920s and 30s.

  443. @ Dude – written like a world worn and gritty member of generation X! Where’s the fertile imagination of the truly staunch boomer punter? We’ll never get to the bottom of this as we’re looking at generations known as “lost”, “greatest” and “silent”… Time I quit commenting to go and scrounge some of the kids’ avo on toast…

  444. David Morgan on February 28, 2023 at 9:50 am said:

    @thedude747

    Since looking at the Somerton case I have become a bit obsessed with attached lobes/non-attached. Often I have noticed that women with attached lobes hide their ears with their hair or big earrings. As if they believe it is a birth defect. I was looking at a doppelganger of Princess Margaret and she didn’t have attached lobes whereas PM did. It was the only way I could tell them apart. In the Oslo Plaza woman case, she looks like she had detached lobes in the police sketch but I am not so certain. Souixie from the Banshees was a perfect doppelganger with the Oslo Plaza woman but again I suspect Souixie has attached lobes because she seems to hide her ears. Souixie was in Oslo and most likely staying in the Oslo Plaza just months before the OPW. In the Isdal Woman case, an American woman was thought to be her because she bought the same boots and had the same suitcases. I have spent nearly 4 years trying to prove she was her – though evidence exists she is still alive. NRK the TV broadcaster failed to contact her even though she was their original evidence track for the DIIV podcast. Then they switched to seeking a mystery German woman with no ID. Seeking a ghost not a real person.

    In the Carl Webb case once again we have this problem of two Carls. The blond and dark-haired Carl. There seems to be a repeated pattern of mysteries. Two people or one and the difference seem to be in the lobes. Do all the Webbs and Keanes have attached lobes?

    I was trying to check whether all the Royals have attached lobes.

  445. John Sanders on February 28, 2023 at 10:40 pm said:

    Jo: your query re Gerry Feltus and the suitcase scatter pic of which Gordon Cramer has claimed authorship is deserving of a full and thorough analysis of all that is known. A lengthy but thorouhly reserched overall view of the origins, how, when, why and whomsover is contained within posts appearing generally throughout the CM Somerton Man’s Suitcase thread. PS: disregard the Peteb posts which have no relevance to suitcases or anything thing else of interest.

  446. John Sanders on March 2, 2023 at 10:44 am said:

    Jo: while you’re over chatting anonymously with Gordon and Pete Davo, as is your prerogative, ask him if he dares to put up the ‘suitcase scatter pic’. Sure hope he gives you a better run for your money than ‘willy’ Peter. I did caution you did I not?.

  447. Peter Davidson on March 3, 2023 at 1:33 am said:

    I pressume that David has been reading Tim Cohen’s book about Charlie being the Antichrist or something?

  448. just looking at Leslie Scott’s NAA file- no photo surprising but medical records state amputated hand – missed that – but did he wear prosthetics? if he did well that’s your THING hand right there ….i guess he might have been joking around

  449. Poppins on May 10, 2023 at 11:05 pm said:

    Hey, this looks like a good picture of Leslie Scott 🙂
    The things ya find when you’re drying your hair, lol
    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146556148?searchTerm=park%20memorial

  450. Poppins on May 11, 2023 at 6:44 am said:

    Speculation; could the man next to Leslie in the family photo be Mr Dibb?
    H’mm …..
    https://imgur.com/Wjho3Nk

  451. Great photo Poppins! I don’t know about Dibbs? He’s certainly a natty dresser!

  452. Poppins on May 11, 2023 at 9:34 pm said:

    Hey Jo, I wasn’t even looking for a picture of Leslie, was looking for a monument in a park shaped like a clock, haha, accidently stumbled across it. Looks like Leslie and Dibb were secretaries working together over the years. That pic of Leslie in 1925, he doesn’t look too much older in the family photo, do you think, few years maybe? I need to stop looking, now I’m getting fascinated with Mr Dibb and his son named Albyrt who went to war, and there’s Thelma ….. I need to stop, lol.

  453. Steve Hurwood on May 12, 2023 at 11:00 am said:

    @Poppins

    Well done. Drying one’s hair isn’t a habit The Moderator knows much about.

    Mr F T Dibb was Francis Talbot Dibb (Frank Dibb). From FamilySearch:

    “When Francis Talbot DIBB was born in 1886, in Casterton, Victoria, Australia, his father, Albert Dibb, was 23 and his mother, Mary Ann Catherine TALBOT, was 28. He died in 1952, in Essendon, Victoria, Australia, at the age of 66.”

    He can also be seen here (named as Dibbs) with the Mayor and Mayoress and an unidentified chap in a trilby (Leslie?):

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223820101?searchTerm=%22f%20t%20dibb%22

    Dig those 1929 fashions!

    Plenty of other mentions on Trove of Dibb and Leslie eg:

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204249539?searchTerm=%22f%20t%20dibb%22

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/147287900?searchTerm=%22f%20t%20dibb%22

    From a 1916 article (Flemington Spectator, 3 Aug) – he was obviously the only popular rate collector in the world:

    “The friends of Mr. F. T. Dibb, Essendon’s popular rate collector will be pleased to hear that he has resumed duty after his serious illness.”

    Seems like he also did a bit of conducting. From the Flemington Spectator (28 Oct 2015):

    “A request from the conductor, Mr. Dibb, for the soldiers to sing a verse of “Onward, Christian Soldiers” by themselves met with a hearty response…Mr. Frank Dibb, in his usual good style, conducted the singing, and Miss
    E. Quayle officiated at the organ.”

  454. John Sanders on May 13, 2023 at 1:53 am said:

    Poppins: pleased to see that my ‘Table Talk’ tip worked for you. If you really want to get one up on the tedious Trove trawlers, i strongly suggest the Camperdown Herald; seeing as Leslie’s dad Samuel Scott ran the rag from pre twenties up until his ‘sudden’ passing in 1939. I still think it is likely to be younger brother Lindsay in the Webb pic, not Pat or Wally as both would have looked younger in 1936 and whatsmore subject is wearing a vest typical of an Assistant Station Masters garb of the day.

  455. @ Poppins & Steve

    Mr Dibbs sounds like a really good candidate! Leslie & Dibbs seem to be in everything together & if he was also musical he’d be popular with the Webbs.

    Steve – I love 20s fashions! Yep, Dibbs was quite stylish!

    Poppins- I think you should also put this suggestion on the FB page as Stuart Webb & his aunt have been checking in.

  456. John Sanders on May 13, 2023 at 10:35 am said:

    Standing alongside the middle aged Mr. Dibbs [sic], 29 year old Les Scott retains a youthful flush although the grainy image doesn’t bring it up out to full effect. In the family pic. he does looks much more fleshed up, older too and nearer to 40 which of course he was in 1935.

  457. John Sanders on May 13, 2023 at 11:10 am said:

    Jo Poppins,

    Sorry girIs, I was right on the money in that your Dibbs character was ten years senior to Leslie and started out as a rates collector with Essendon. He lived locally with his wife Hilda at Pasco Crescent and in 1929 they had at least one child, a son named Len. Frank was a Freemason and was said to be tall, if either of those personal details be of any relevance.

  458. John Sanders on May 13, 2023 at 11:33 am said:

    …woops Byrt and Lindsey (not Len) were the sons of Hilda & Frank. My bad!

  459. John Sanders on May 13, 2023 at 12:26 pm said:

    ….right the first time with Frank’s son Leonard and not my fault, blame Trove.

  460. John Sanders on May 13, 2023 at 12:41 pm said:

    Steve & Girls,

    Little more info coming through for your important records. Sadly Frank passed in ’52 Hilda ’66, Lindsay ’85 and wee Byrt in 1920 at just 1 year.

  461. David Morgan on May 13, 2023 at 10:24 pm said:

    @js in your 1936 version of the family picture you’ve made the small child Norma around 11 and Leo lying at the front around 17 and blond Carl 31?

    It’s a stretch.

    Or are they all someone else?

  462. John Sanders on May 14, 2023 at 7:36 am said:

    David Morgan,

    You’re assumption in the preamble as to my views on makeup of the ’36 gathering is flawed. So yes, “………they are all someone else” imho, therefore your assertive “It’s a stretch” misnomer becomes a fanciful moot point if that’s fine with you!!

  463. Poppins on May 14, 2023 at 7:39 am said:

    Good on ya Steve, h’mm, 1929 pic, that’s a good one to use as a comparison.

    Good on ya Sanders, but what about Albyrt, you’ve forgotten about Albyrt with a Y, he married Thelma Howell, who got her picture in the paper. Albyrt has a War record file which I would like to shove into my shopping trolley and wheel out the door, but I haven’t thus far …..
    I don’t think Leslie looks too much older than the family pic, let me see ….

    Okay Jo, I’ll see if I can put together some of the pics and pop them in there somewhere, will try now, well, in a minute. Cheers

  464. John Sanders on May 14, 2023 at 10:24 am said:

    Poppins,

    I did see a 1915 birth for the newlyweds but couldn’t put a name to it at short notice and then later thought it may been Frances Thelma who turns out to have been Albyrt’s spouse. never mind I’ll get over it, and you’ll surely have noticed that younger brother Leonard also has a lengthy war history including Mid East and New Guinea. Sadly neither records have been digitised and so we’ll have do do without, just as a big break in the case seemed inevitable..shucks!!

  465. Poppins on May 14, 2023 at 11:51 am said:

    It’s not a complete shucks, Sanders, Albert Clifford Dibb has some things digitised and so does Francis Dibb, it’s amazing, just spotted them …. goody goody.

  466. John Sanders on May 14, 2023 at 9:56 pm said:

    Poppins: took your time to pick up on Frank’s unsuccessful recruitment in 1918 mate. You were still looking for Dibbs no doubt. Even Steve Burwood got the right monicker but didn’t follow up through lack of incentive and now he’ll jump in and take credit for spotting your error. Shucks again.

  467. John Sanders on May 14, 2023 at 10:35 pm said:

    ….”a good on ya” ta you too Poppins. I didn’t think to try the different Albert/Albyrt spelling and I must say I’m kicking myself for missing it. You’ll note that whilst he was exempted from for active service due to his engineering quals., he then went into the RAAF in ’44 and remained as a tech. until 1946.

  468. John Sanders on May 17, 2023 at 6:47 am said:

    Bill & Jim Fall Out

    Bill and Jim are mates no longer —-they would scorn the name of mate —-
    Those two bushmen hate each other with a soul consuming hate;
    Yet erstwhile they were as brothers should be (though they never will):
    Ne’er were mates to one another half so true as Jim and Bill.

    Bill was one of those who have to argue every day or die —-
    Though of course, he swore t’was Jim who always itched to argufy.
    They would, on most abstract subjects, contradict each other flat
    And at times in lurid language —- yet were mates in spite of that.

    Bill believed the Bible story be the origin of him —-
    He was sober, he was steady, he was orthordox; while Jim,
    Who we grieve to state, was always getting into drunken scrapes,
    Held that man degenerated from degenerated apes.

    Bill was British to the bootstraps, he was loyal through and through;
    Jim declared that Blutcher’s Prussians won the stoush at Waterloo,
    And he hoped the coloured races would in time wipe out the white —-
    Though it rather strained their mateship, it didn’t burst it quite.

    They battled round New Zlnd —- they saw it through and through —-
    Then they argued on the rata, what it was and how it grew;
    Bill believed the vine grew downward, Jim declared that it grew up —-
    Yet they always shared their fortunes to the final bite and sup.

    Night after night they argued how the Kangaroo was born,
    And each one held the other’s theories only fit for scorn,
    Bill believed it was ‘born inside’, Jim declared it was born out —-
    Each as to their own opinions never had the slightest doubt.

    Then they left the earth to argue and they went among the stars,
    Re conditions atmospheric, Bill believed the ‘hair of Mars
    Was too thin for human bein’s to exist in mortal states.’
    Jim declared it thick as treacle —yet they still remained as mates.

    Bill for Freetrade —-Jim Protection —- argued as to which was best
    For the welfare of the workers —-and their mateship stood the test!
    They argued over what they meant and didn’t mean at all,
    And what they said and didn’t —-and were mates in spite of all.

    Till one night the two together tried to light a fire in camp,
    When they had a leaking ‘billy’ and the wood was scarce and damp,
    And ….No matter: let the moral be distinctly understood:
    One alone should tend the fire, while the other brings the wood.

    Henry Lawson -1896

  469. John Sanders on May 20, 2023 at 1:08 pm said:

    …..and yep Stuart, it wasn’t Poppins, Steve, Jo or any of the other FB mofos that confirmed Essendon deputy town clerc Les Scott’s presence in the Webb family photo. Even Nick Pelling’s thread header suggests it may have been moi, albeit most reluctantly.

  470. Poppins on May 20, 2023 at 8:56 pm said:

    Darn tootin’ Les Scott was found by you in the family photo, Sanders, and may I say you shone like a beacon light in the mist on a dark and stormy night when you found that. It was truly magnificent.
    And just quietly, I’m very much looking forward to the big reveal coming up in June when you’re released from the mystery location you’re being held at that forbids the posting of maps or photographs of rural locations.

  471. John Sanders on May 21, 2023 at 12:46 am said:

    Poppins

    Everyone knows where I am and where I’ve been for more than half of my life, a true paradise no less, despite some customs that may sound archaic to you, but rest assure I’m not being “held” captive as you suggest. I simply follow the rules set to ensure that its guest workers are not in bed with subversive outside influences. When I return, after a short sojourn in a not so ethically minded nation I’ll be more than happy to abide by the special rules and customs in place without question. NB. I have in my collection, all sorts of aerial survey and contour military maps that I’m at liberty to retain in country as a hobby; just so long as I don’t get into the bad habit of using internet links to flood the market. PS just last week my host nation’s ambasador sanctioned Australia’s mint for it’s release of a commemorative coin that displated in minute detail the defunct Saigon regime’s ARVN flag, demanding immediate withdrawal from circulation.

  472. John Sanders on May 21, 2023 at 2:58 am said:

    ….by the way pops, appreciate the belated heads up on my Les Taylor ID to which Steve Windwood the bugler laid claim even though incapable of aping such old suit initiatives. You’ll permit a little blowing on my part in suggesting that the aforesaid piece of detection was not quite on par with Dorothy Robertson’s familial blood ties to Dr. John Bennett shared disclosure that went over like one of Nick Pelling’s lead Zeplins.

  473. Poppins on May 21, 2023 at 10:03 pm said:

    Ah, thanks for another biographical instalment, I had no idea you were over there, or that I was the only one that didn’t know, lol … just followed your “commemorative, mint, coin” clues in the news online. H’mm, for some reason I thought you were in Sydney or possibly Noo Zulund, so, err, I’m not a very good sleuth am I ….. thanks for sharing, good on ya and enjoy your short sojourn.

  474. Poppins on August 5, 2023 at 6:56 am said:

    Gladys intestate:
    https://imgur.com/GuvBBaN

    Distribution:
    https://imgur.com/lUoDmN1

    The ad found by Lachlan Kelly Carl Webb:
    https://imgur.com/I5KpllG

  475. John Sanders on October 2, 2023 at 4:08 am said:

    David Morgan: regarding your ‘arm garter’ post on FB on the as yet unknown bald freddy of the family photo; I had always figured on him being Les Scott’s brother Lindsay on several grounds including his relative age, similar looks to his sib with the missing forearm, and attire which to my mind fits with his mid thirties occupation of staton master telegrapher in a Victorian regional hub. At the time I discounted brother Walter due to his known red hair, and bro Patrick from distant Bendigo who I figured as being too young to fit the picture image. So far as I’m aware know nothing Stuart Webb never made the sib connection which don’t mean nothing nohow!

  476. John Sanders on October 12, 2023 at 8:17 am said:

    Did we ever arrive at some sort of consensus apropos the chap in the Webb photo with missing left hand from above the wrist. I seem to recall that we may have in the final analysis but no matter, leastways Stuart Webb agreed verily with our well spotted ID for Leslie Scott. What he didn’t submit to, and for face saving reasons still doesn’t, be presence also of younger brother Lindsay (bn. 1900) who looks 35 plus in the family pic as opposed to 24/25 if we apply Stuey’s 1925 photo date reckoning. All that’s been done to death agreed but, what hasn’t gets back to poor Les and his apparent mangled right hand which has the appearance of a spider about to strike and yet doesn’t get mentioned on his service record. What ever happened, could only have been post war.

  477. John sanders on November 14, 2023 at 7:03 am said:

    ….unless of course he was misidentified from the get go; and by whom we can only wonder. I seem to recall a comment by Steve Hearward saying something about a missing left arm? but, not a mangled right hand that stands out in the circa. 1936 Webb family photo.

  478. @ Poppins

    Thank you so much for posting the links and all your research on Gladys and Leslie.

    I agree that we should look into her ‘recurrent’ ‘heart trouble’, maybe the same could have happened to Carl.

    Do you know if anyone has downloaded her death certificate?

    Thanks again!

  479. John Sanders on January 1, 2024 at 10:16 pm said:

    Pat: Your Macleans tube looks closer than all others to one in the suitcase. As for the gum, not at all sure but, unconfirmed 1978 doco sources suggest the candied four tablet pack JF gum as opposed to the strip type depicted in the link offering.

  480. Can someone with access to Ancestry check if there’s new info on Brenda Therese Lesley Webb as per the Cronk/Fox family trees?

    Thanks!

    https://imgur.com/a/APPvIMu

  481. @ Pat

    This is from the family tree, managed by Sally Cronk:

    Brenda Therese Lesley Webb was born in 1943 in Melbourne, Victoria, the daughter of Roy. She married on 16 January 1965 in Sydney, New South Wales. She had one child during her marriage. She died on 5 July 1985 in Sydney, New South Wales, at the age of 42, and was buried in New South Wales.

    Details for the husband and child are private as they are still alive.

  482. @Jo,

    Thanks! I suppose she hasn’t updated the tree for a decade? The 1943 dob is interesting. And a child? This is against all the info we have on her. I wish Misca was still around!

  483. David Morgan on January 4, 2024 at 8:55 pm said:

    @pat,

    it comes down to who do you believe

    AngelaH or the Cronks?

    https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/GFFV-MK5.

    I have witnessed 3 examples of genealogy tampering – one made my great aunt her aunt incorrectly and she lived very close to my great aunt. I also saw that some Texan wrestler had made the mother of Jane Marie Wallentine (from the Isdal woman plot), Hazel Williams from Texas not Roalson of Swedish/Norwegian origin. It is still wrong on the system. The other case was where I was researching a family in Lower Plenty and the LDS relative just changed it – he made the people dead. He said he would change it back but he didn’t. I was trying to say potentially his ancestor had attached his family to a person to inherit and he wasn’t their relative. He got the old guy to sign a codicil.

  484. “At Rookwood Catholic Cemetery, there are two dedicated St Vincent De Paul Society burial areas to assist those less fortunate. There have been almost 800 interments that have taken place from 1971 to today in these sections.

    CCC formed a strong collaboration with the St Vincent de Paul Society by offering grave sites at Rookwood Catholic Cemetery. This helped them to continue to meet the immediate needs of providing a final resting place to those adversely affected by poverty and the most disadvantaged in Sydney.

    Peter O’Meara, the CEO of Catholic Cemeteries + Crematoria said, “There is an intrinsic element of basic humanity and a spirit of respect for the dead that no government-controlled cemetery provides in Sydney”.

    Jack de Groot, CEO of the St Vincent de Paul Society NSW, said, “The St Vincent de Paul Society helps people find dignity in life and, for the people we have the privilege of assisting at the end, in death. Experience of disadvantage should not preclude someone from being laid to rest or being remembered.”

    Catholic Cemeteries and the St Vincent de Paul Society will continue to work together year after year to provide a dedicated resting place for all in the community.

    It is for this reason that CCC ensures that the areas for people without means are well maintained and that the names of the deceased are recorded on a plaque, providing them with the dignity and respect that they deserve.

    For further information please contact Jo Davenport on 0427 604 651.”

    Maybe someon could contact Jo Davenport to ask if there is any additional information on Brenda (Webb) Mullin?

    Brenda Mullin
    Age 38
    Interred Date 17 Jul 1985
    Cemetery Rookwood Catholic
    Cem Portion M2
    Cem Row 14SVDP

  485. @ Jo,

    Can you check MabelsMob tree on Ancestry? It says John Bernard Mullin was born and died in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, Canada! It has Brenda Therese Webb as his spouse. Sorry for being a p.i.t.a.! Thanks!

    https://imgur.com/a/lZmZ0sr

  486. John Bernard Mullin’s sister Jean Violet (Mullin) Thornton and her husband Allan Thomas (Tim) Thornton are buried in Victoria, at Fawkner Memorial Park. Both headstones’ photos are available on Findagrave.

    Allan Thomas Thornton Birth 17 Mar 1940 / Death 30 Apr 2012 (aged 72)
    Jean Violet Thornton Birth 19 Jul 1940 / Death13 Sep 2014 (aged 74)

    No luck finding John Bernard Mullin’s grave in NSW.

    Brenda is buried at the same mortuary as John Bernard’s grandpa and grandma, Bernard Joseph (d. 1931) and Bridget Rosina Louisa (d. 1952), although at different sections:

    Brenda – Rockwood R.C. Mortuary 2; Sect. 14SVDP
    Bernard and Bridget – Rockwood R.C. Mortuary 2; Sect. 9 Plot 5430

  487. @Patv I think that is old news though I only caught up with these a month, ago.

  488. @ Curio,

    I haven’t found Ruby’s name on the Victorian Government Gazette online archive under Register of Nurses. Have you?

    Thanks!

  489. I wonder if this is Ruby? Ruby Davy? Maybe she gave a false name?

    Nurse Mitchell, well known for illegal abortion procedures and murder trials, and one of bondswoman Clara Gavey’s ‘clients’.

    Clara was Ruby’s step-mother.

    World (Hobart, Tas. : 1918 – 1924)
    Wed 20 Feb 1924
    Page 7
    NURSE MITCHELL.

    NURSE MITCHELL.
    Illegal Operation Alleged.
    Accused Again Acquitted.
    MELBOURNE, Tuesday. — Nurse
    Hannah Elizabeth Mitchell, looking
    haggard and ill, was charged at the
    Criminal Court to-day with having
    murdered Mabel Alice- Hodgkinson,
    at Carlton, on November 1.
    The accused exhausted her right
    by challenging 20 jurors,
    It was alleged that tbe deceased
    died as the result of an illegal operation
    performed by Mitchell.
    The husband of the deceased gave
    evidence of a conversation he and
    his late wife bad with a woman,
    though he could not swear it was the
    accused. On October 24 witness said
    he found his wife absent when he
    came home, and did not see her again
    until October 28, when-she was seri
    ously ill.
    Senior detective Davey said in evidence
    that tbe deceased, in the Women’s
    Hospital, identified the accused
    as the woman referred to in the deceased’s
    statement. The dead woman’s
    statement was read in court.
    For the defence Ruby’ Davy said
    that at Richmond races on October 8,
    Nurse Mitchell became suddenly ill,
    and was taken home and put to bed.
    Witness nursed Mitchell until after
    Christmas.
    In a long statement from the dock
    the accused said she came home in
    great pain from the Richmond races
    on October 8, went to bed, and remained
    there for two or three weeks.
    She was subsequently, operated on.
    She said she had nver seen the deceased
    or her husband.
    After an hour’s retirement tbe jury
    acquitted tbe accused.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190362515?searchTerm=%22nurse%20hannah%20elizabeth%20mitchell%22#

  490. Poppins on January 8, 2024 at 3:37 am said:

    @Pat, re Gladys, her cause of death was coronary occlusion (1 hour), previous coronary occlusion (1 week); Arteriosclerosis – (years). Passed away on 3 July 1955, at the age of 57.

  491. This will probably go nowhere .. but who of you believe Webb is the Somerton Man?

  492. David Morgan on January 8, 2024 at 10:55 am said:

    @PeteB,

    It is a question of science. If you believe DNA identifies people then you have no reason not to believe it. Of course, it could be his brother but since he was the only one who never ‘officially’ died (death cert) then it is likely him.

    If SAPOL release the DNA results it might give a surprise e.g. it might explain why he had ginger hair.

  493. Mary Howitt on January 8, 2024 at 12:42 pm said:

    Dear Peteb – the South Australian authorities may soon confirm whether or not a Webb was the Somerton Man. In the meantime I can both observe and attest that the Somerton Man saga is a web in which many have both spun threads and become entangled!

    It’s as slippery as the Ballina Water Slides!

  494. Poppins on January 8, 2024 at 8:17 pm said:

    @PeteB, it’s a yes from me for the Somerton Man being Carl Webb …. the DNA testing was done on a clump of hair extracted from the plaster mould, not a stray one – the Swinburne pic, family photo, the youth morphs into the Somerton Man image perfectly.

  495. @ Poppins,

    Thanks so much!

    Ruby Davey was telling the truth, although her father’s surname was Warne, she went by her mother’s surname Davey.

    https://imgur.com/a/5SrjHrM

    https://imgur.com/a/a9vOGzu

  496. Alan H on January 8, 2024 at 10:57 pm said:

    Peterb :- If Charlie was alive and teaching coding at the Breaker Morant School of Poetry while checking for TV Licence compliance in the UK in 1962 then I have to go with “SM is not Carl “Charles” Webb”.

  497. @ Poppins, @ Pat:

    Librarian at Geelong Library sent me the pupil register for Fyansford Primary. No Dorothy listed.

    Am going to assume that Geelong State School was considered part of the Fyansford school district, and that the record found by the researcher at archivalaccessvictoria.com refers to the same one Poppins unearthed.

  498. Byron Deveson on January 9, 2024 at 12:55 am said:

    Pete,
    judging from the DNA and genealogical evidence thus far I believe that SM is of the wider Webb family, and probably Carl.

  499. John Sanders on January 9, 2024 at 3:43 am said:

    Peteb: no surprise, I ain’t no Carl Webb fan, this in light of my Robertson/Bennett links which, didn’t impress admin’s seconded FB team one iota. I’v now reverted to re working old leads from my very first CM post, Looking to find what became of a ‘G’ for George??? what lived within cooey of Alvington steps then disappeared on SM ‘D’ day with not so much as a “by your leave” it would seem. PS. Of course the suitcase had to be a plant; after all who’s gonna pack half a dozen cheap ties and white snot rags for a trip, yet be so remiss as to forget a change of socks and shoe brushes to go with his tin of tan Kiwi polish.

  500. Thanks for the responses… another question: when you consider the Webb family’s connection to some very well known Melbourne criminals and the two well-known baccarat players who were sure he was employed at one of the illegal gambling dens – is there a possibility he was involved in some shady business with Prosper both in Melbourne and Adelaide? Further, could this business, lucrative and cash based as it was have been of some benefit to certain police in Adelaide and was the reason for (1) the shoddy investigation and (2) their lack of interest in interviewing Thomson?

  501. @ Pat – what a story! And interesting to see Clara Gavey and Hannah Mitchell! Mrs G presents as a tough old character!

    Peteb – a yes from me and yes, I’ve also been down those slippery slides!

  502. David Morgan on January 9, 2024 at 1:34 pm said:

    @Poppins,

    In my discussions with Colleen I reminded her of her comments about the hair not being from the clay bust (see Mind Over Murders podcast). She came back saying it was tautology to remind her of what she said – like she’s allowed to be inexact. “I was drunk perhaps at the time?”

    Now she has returned to her copy/paste answer from Abbott.

    I tried to remind her of the procedure of creating the clay bust.
    1). Hair is often shaved entirely off the subject – see Ned Kelly’s loss of hair and beard.
    2). They create a mould.
    3). They create a clay bust from a mould.

    So the hair shaved off seems like a bigger and better source of hair and I could imagine Lawson swept it up and put it in a paper bag in 1948/49.

    If you look at the hair on the clay bust v photograph of Carl it is obviously been clay styled as hair not a mould of actual hair.

    It is interesting that Feltus said he could see from the clay bust the hair was ginger. But consider the movement of the hair – it is plucked by the mould from the body then plucked again from the mould to the clay bust. To prevent the clay bust sticking Lawson may have lined the mould – e.g. with talc or starch. We have to assume the talc didn’t prevent hair from sticking to the clay bust. It seems like a very selective clay liner.

    Then Colleen said the DNA was grown from the damaged hair. That sort of reminds of the way AI grows an image from nothing. It is working with perhaps 60% of the data and assumes the rest. That’s why we see people with 6 fingers a lot in AI pictures.

    We don’t know what level of damage the hair had received in the double transfer (body to mould, mould to bust) and more importantly over time. Whereas, hair stored in a paper bag in a drawer would be the ideal way to retain hair for forensic purposes.

    I think Abbott and Colleen are lying because if they say Lawson gave Abbott a bag of hair then they have no provenance for the hair.

  503. Correction:

    3 of the 8 children were Rachel’s with former husband Edward: Frank, Richard and Barry.

    Dawn, Rae, Peter, Ellen and Linda were John Ivor’s with Rachel.

    John, Les, Ted and Joyce were John Ivor’s children with former wife Jennie Lesueur.

    No fertility issues indeed!

  504. Mitchell & Co., agents. 294 High-st., Preston. JU1996.

    Lots of ads selling houses and villas. No idea if they are related to Nurse Mitchell.

  505. Poppins on January 10, 2024 at 8:17 am said:

    @DavidMorgan, I reckon the best podcast to listen to about the DNA, to get the full picture, is Derek talking with this delightful fella named Joe – start from the 1:18:10 …. ya can’t fake this kind of detail and enthusiasm, it’s completely fabulous.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4Zvfkoniw

  506. @ Poppins

    I hope you saw Hard Quiz tonight!

    Anton, Project Manger, expert subject: Novak Djokovic
    Antonia, Charity CEO, expert subject: The EU
    Stephen, Sculptor, expert subject: Black holes
    Linda, Lawyer, subject: Mary Poppins!

    I’m waiting for:

    Peter Bowes, writer and blogger, expert subject: The Somerton Man Case!
    That would truly infuriate a couple of other Australian based “experts”!

    Now, what would Tom Gleeson ask?

  507. @ Pat

    https://imgur.com/a/WNhIfl5

    The link between the Gaveys and Parrys may have been the Lodge of Euclid, based at the Masonic Hall in Prahran. Joe Gavey’s descendants seem to have been very upright folk! John Ivor Gavey married one of the Blashki family who made all of the Freemasons’ regalia (and academic gowns).

    When I met with Stuart W last year he said that his grandmother was also involved with the Freemasons in Prahran. We visited a few of the “Somerton Man sites” in and around Prahran and South Yarra; when we walked past the Masonic Hall he remembered that he’d had his 21st birthday party there!

    I think Ruby may have been the honorary secretary of the Nursing Association, as per your find. She was certainly in the Caulfield area and it fits with the younger Gaveys being involved in community work. I think Brenda was her own daughter (I had two babies when I was 40!). Who the father was seems to be a mystery )for Ruby and Brenda that is, not me & the twins!).

    The Forgotten Histories podcast on the Nurse Mitchell case is excellent! I listened to part I whilst practicing the domestic arts today. It’s very sad and very much a story of its time. Clara and Joseph Gavey are mentioned, along with another of their lawyers, who acted for Mitchell. She was later represented by Leo Cussen – a very accomplished barrister.

  508. This post was supposed to be here… Sorry Nick!

    Oops, John Ivor had 4 not 3 names! Sorry Nick.

    @ Jo,

    I have been trying to find Nurse Hannah Mitchel’s death register or grave.

    According to excellent podcaster Michael Adams (Forgotten Australia, Forgotten Oz on FB) she died in Melbourne in 1940 without an obituary.

    She was born in Cheshire in 1877, Hannah Elizabeth Margaret Lloyd Thomas.

    She married Arthur Marsden in 1895 in Liverpool and had a daughter, Dorothy.

    Arthur died and she remarried Irishman John Joseph Mitchell in 1903 at Walton, S. Mary Church, Liverpool.

    They had 4 children: Margaret ‘Queenie’ (1904), Patricia (1906), John Joseph (1909) and David Alexander (1911).

    John Josephs (father and son) and David Alexander’s files are available on NAA.

    The interesting thing about them is thatl all of them married in 1939, just before Hannah Mitchel’s death in 1940.

    Margareth x Ronald James Turnbull Young (Vic)

    Patricia x William Edward Kirwan (Vic)

    John Joseph x Alice Corban (Vic)

    David Alexander x Alice Elizabeth Lewis (in NSW, with 2 different marriage certificates!)

    John Joseph senior died in the war (1917) and Hannah married Nicolas Frank Bonfiglio in 1919. His obituary is available online here https//oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/bonfiglio-frank-16118

    They had a tumultuous marriage (widely covered on Trove)

    Another interesting thing is that Hannah’s address in Melbourne ws 4 Burnley St, North Richmond througout her trials notices, including many ads offering her services and boarding house/rest home, but her son John Joseph’s addresses on his military files are 3 Burnley St, 2 Burnley St and 1 Burnely St. (typos or maybe because the house occupied many plots, it had 14 bedrooms!).

    On David Alexander’s military files (he became a captain!) his mother’s (‘E. Mitchell’) address at one point (not sure if it was 1934 or 1940, he enlisted twice) was 60r Nicholson Street, North Fitzroy, which is a 6 min walk to 226 Glenlyon Rd!

    There are many ads with the Burnely St. Richmond address, ‘all cases successfully treated’ , ‘with, without Dr.’ by Nurse Mitchell… and a ‘Marmon Tourer 1924, good condition’ in 1931.

    There’s an ad for furniture in 1937 at 4 Burnely St., Richmond, so I’m thinking Hannah moved to 60r Nicholson St. around that time.

    Finally…

    The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954)
    Sat 26 Aug 1939
    Page 33
    Advertising

    AGENTS PLEASE NOTE.— Massive semi-modern
    Brick Villa, 4 Burnley St.. Richmond, with
    drawn from Sale. Sold by PODMORE BROS. (in
    conjunction Mitchell & Co. 31 Bridge Rd..
    Richmond. J2809, J1578. Private, XW2775.

    So I suppose she moved to 60r Nicholson St, North Fitzoy/Brunswick East in 1939 and live there until she died in 1940, just around the corner of 226 Glenlyon Rd where Carl, Gerald, Freda and John Russell were living.

    Now, off to investigate Mitchell & Co!

    Mitchell & Co., agents. 294 High-st., Preston. JU1996.

    Lots of ads selling houses and villas. No idea if they are related to Nurse Mitchell.

  509. @Jo,

    Do you think treasurer E. Parry is Eric North? Wasn’t he supposed to be in NSW in 1945-46?

    Can you check on Ancestry the Rate Books/Tax Lists for Ruby Stella Webb, Roy Webb, Hannah Elizabeth Mitchell, Margaret Elizabeth Mitchell, and Elizabeth Mitchell? They all seem to have had business in Caulfield!

  510. @ Jo,

    Regarding abortion, things are not very different 100 years later!

    https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/01/10/british-woman-cleared-of-lockdown-abortion-charges/

  511. David Morgan on January 10, 2024 at 7:10 pm said:

    @Poppins,

    You now have to listen to Colleen with her pals. So no constraints on what she says. Total honesty.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jIH6MvUCiI

    She says Abbott was coveting hair given to him by the police.

    I believe this version and not the student with the tweezers.

  512. @ David Morgan,

    The process of obtaining DNA from the hair embebbed in the plaster cast, described by Prof. Abbott https://spectrum.ieee.org/somerton-man

  513. @ Pat – I think E Parry is Eric‘s father, Ernest, who died in 1951 (the same year as Joe Gavey). See funeral notice from the Age, February 1951.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204959943?searchTerm=Lodge%20of%20euclid

  514. @ Poppins,

    Thanks for the youtube link.

    Abbott insists on saying that the aluminium comb was not available in Australia.

    This is not true. A lot of notices on Trove about aluminium combs given to recruits (as part of a kit) in 1917 and ads selling them in 1946.

    The Courier-Mail (Brisbane, Qld. : 1933 – 1954)
    Tue 9 Apr 1946
    Page 6
    Round The Shot

    ARRAY OF PRESENTS
    EACH year the Easter season is becoming more
    synonymous with the giving of presents, and
    the goods now seen in the city shops present a
    wide range for gifts for the family.
    Small tubular boxes of frag
    rant talc powder, in ‘bouquet,’
    ‘apple blossom,’ or ‘La
    Conga,’ sent from America,
    cost 3/6 a box.
    Perfumes to match the talcs are
    priced 6/6 small size, 12/6, and
    22/6.
    Extra large botles of honey and
    almond hand lotion are selling for
    1/3 each. Pretty silk hankies, with
    flower borders, either of blue con
    volvulus, or red poppies, cost 1/11½
    each.
    White pencils for the nails are
    selling at 1/3 each. The popular
    powder-block make-up that has
    been unobtainable in Brisbane for
    so long, was seen this week, priced
    at 5/6 a box. There are five
    shades.
    ALUMINIUM COMBS last indefin
    itely. One store is selling them
    for 1/3. Long black combs cost
    1/6.
    Two soft powder puffs in an
    attractive transparent container
    cost 3/9. Special after shave lotion
    for men costs 4/6 and 7/6.
    Strongly-made fawn suitcases of
    a useful size, 16in. x 4in. deep, with
    the edges reinforced, cost 22/5
    each.
    Boys’ navy or grey socks, size 10,
    have been reduced from 3/10 to
    2/11. Men’s khaki and grey pull
    overs, with V neck, and long
    sleeves, in pannelled pattern, are
    priced at 17/6.
    Square powder compacts in
    perspex, of various colours, with
    a scene on the lid, cost 21/ each.
    Limited supplies of silverware
    are available this week. A child’s
    silver mug costs 21/9, egg cups
    13/6, and sugar basins 14/11.
    Quick boiling kettles that, hold
    four pints, cost only 2/9 at one
    chain store. A large size strainer
    for kitchen use costs 1/6, and a
    smaller size is priced at 3/3.
    Rubber door wedges cost 8d.
    each, blue or white towel racks
    10½d. Enamel, in blue, white, ana
    two shades of green, is 3/2 a tin.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50248715

  515. @ Jo,

    Well spotted! Thanks!

  516. John Sanders on January 10, 2024 at 10:48 pm said:

    The presence of the extra (aluminum) comb (bug rake) could be explained if SM had brought his dog with him on the big day. Not so unusual in that in a previous Somerton suicide, also attended by Const. Moss, the bloke not only brought his wire haired terrier ‘Bomber’ along, he also brought his lucky infant son Dick in a perambulator. Don’t believe it Patv fa Valle, the book ‘Spitfire Leader by Richard Bungey gives a true picture of the sad affair from May ’43….Perhap’s George’s pooch returned home, after all it was only fifty yards away from X marks the plot.

  517. @ Pat

    There are several rates entries for Ruby Stella Webb – I can’t access them at the moment as I subscribed to UK Ancestry – I’ll switch to Australia at the end of this month

  518. Steve H on January 10, 2024 at 11:17 pm said:

    @David Morgan

    I have repeatedly – repeatedly – told you that the hair was from a clump found in the plaster cast. There was a video on YouTube (Stateline Report Part 1) showing this, when Abbott and his students visited the Police Museum in 2009. This has recently been taken off YouTube for violating their rules for some reason. The police then gave him permission to take some of this hair – nothing to do with Paul Lawson! You have a remarkable capacity for completely ignoring evidence that doesn’t fit your agenda, as with Dorothy’s divorce affidavit where you totally failed to address any of the points I made in reply to your attack on a woman we know hardly anything about.

    To call Abbott and Fitzpatrick “liars” is a very ugly and unjustified accusation and totally inaccurate in this instance. Actually my time looking into and commenting on this case and others has convinced me that most internet true crime commentators are deluded, ignorant, prejudiced, small minded, blinkered, monomaniacal and narcissistic fools and many of them are simply liars – look at John Sanders who ties himself up in knots in his lack of ability to admit when he has got things wrong, which is most of the time.

    From the ABC Q & A session, 3 Aug 2022:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-03/somerton-man-breakthrough-dna-ask-the-experts/101287824

    “How do you get the DNA for this sort of thing? For example, do you have to get police to agree to release it or are there other ways you go about doing this sort of investigation?

    Here’s Colleen Fitzpatrick:

    We usually obtain DNA on a case from a law enforcement agency, but in this case, Derek Abbott had strands of hair that he had already obtained through the South Australian Police.”

    “Is there a possibility that the hair found in the plaster cast could have come from one of those making the cast?

    – Ric

    Here’s Derek Abbott:

    The plaster bust was moulded directly off the dead body. So the hairs are actually standing on end in a manner that is obviously from the body. Confirmatory evidence is that the hair’s DNA led to Charles Webb and not Paul Lawson who made the bust.

    If there were any Lawsons on the tree that would indeed be a concern. But no Lawson’s were on the tree at all. The police also have Paul Lawson’s DNA as a matter of procedure, but I doubt the Coroner will want to see that.

    The Coroner will probably be more interested in matching the hair’s DNA to that of the exhumed body, to tick all the boxes.”

    “I thought that hair contained only mitochondrial DNA, so how did you manage to obtain the Somerton Man’s autosomal DNA? Did you find a hair follicle, or have you developed a new technique whereby autosomal DNA can be extracted from hair itself? If the latter, is this technique likely to become mainstream? – Jeff

    Here’s Derek Abbott:

    Here’s some interesting detail that I did not tell the press as it was too technical. In the latest effort to extract DNA, I first selected a really good-looking hair root. Hair roots are classified into two categories: anagen and catagen. It’s the anagen roots that are the best for DNA extraction. So, I selected the best anagen root from the Somerton Man that I had nervously guarded for years since 2011.

    And guess what: it was a total flop…we got a very poor DNA result. I was totally gutted. How could my ‘prize’ root do that? So I went for Plan B and tried a section of hair shaft. And bingo, we got 2 million DNA markers…

    So why on earth did the hair root not work, whereas the hair shaft worked? My hypothesis is that because the hair is so old, the soft spongy root is more vulnerable to degradation, whereas the hair shaft is better protected the DNA over all those years from degradation. The hair shaft is made of keratin, which is a pretty darn tough protein. I think this worked to our advantage.

    To answer your other questions: no, hair does not only contain mitochondrial DNA. What we did was far from mainstream and is reasonably new. I believe there is only one other case in the world solved using hair shaft.”

    The hair sent for analysis was formaldehyde free and was taken by hair forensic specialist and Uni of Adelaide postgraduate student Janette Edson from the bust by sliding out a few hairs with roots on from the middle of a cluster that wasn’t touching the plaster directly.

    See:

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/somerton-man

    There’s a photo of Edson extracting the hair for Christ’s sake! But someone commented on that site:

    “David Morgan 27 JUN, 2023
    Colleen Fitzpatrick created a confusion about the use of mtDNA on the Mind over Murder podcast (time 30:30) where she says Prof Abbott’s student (implying inexpert ability) took strands of hair from the plaster cast but these weren’t used for her final tests. Others had been provided by ‘the police’.”

    Please stop spreading disinformation – that’s Gordon Cramer and Peter Bowes’ job (with their pet poodle John Sanders to yelp and snap at the naysayers). You keep going round in circles – no wonder Colleen thinks you’re a pain in the arse. This distrust by amateur sleuths of professional experts and academics is comical and deeply depressing at the same time.

    @John Sanders

    Lawson told Abbott that SM’s big toe leant in “slightly” and that his feet were “beautifully shaped” with no deformities, ie hardly likely to be genetically determined clinodactyly. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing old chap!

    See: https://youtu.be/aJUZHIlteMs?si=cZi-AfM3EAKFc3Gu&t=2238

    @Pat

    You were right about your “body for Abbie” remark a while back which John Sanders insisted was “bags for office”. Does the poodle ever stop pooping on the pavement? He also said that “E African” was “E Atrien” (“quite clear to me”). What a plonker! And he thought “pests” was “ports” which he then contrived to mean summat to do with suitcases. My colleague Lord CoB had to put him right on that one.

    Derek Abbott believes that Cleland consulted Abbie to provide info on the possible ethnicity of the Somerton man and that it was Abbie who wanted Cleland to keep the skull – See:

    https://youtu.be/1SnC9t8qGkI?si=ZQbevx5kuH_h6ooF&t=2538

    As you said to the soi-disant “humble as Trump Tower” JS on 11 November last year (LOCKYER VS LOCKYER DIVORCE FILES (CONTINUED)…):

    “You are utterly pathetic, sweetheart…

    Drop the FB joke and stick to the FACTS.

    Bags for Office, that is hilarious.”

    Don’t think I’ll be calling him sweetheart any time soon tho’!

    You said to old CoB back in November “I agree ‘ether’ is very important in this drama. I’ll be posting my hypothesis soon.” Any news on that front?

  519. Poppins on January 11, 2024 at 5:21 am said:

    @DavidMorgan …. err, that’s exactly what Derek said – he had permission from the South Australian police to get the hair from the mask and he kept it hidden away in a drawer, sealed and protected – Colleen says all this in that podcast too. I rule in favour of the defendants. Adjourn the court sine die.

  520. Poppins on January 11, 2024 at 5:50 am said:

    @Jo … great idea re Hard Quiz! Oooh yes, PeteB would surely bring home the brass mug – or at least get 5 from 5. H’mm, an obscure question from Tom, “How many pencils were in the Somerton Man’s suitcase?” We were in the audience in August for the taping of Season 9 (Battle of the Duds) … I won’t spoil the suspense and reveal what colour next season’s tie is … all will be revealed in good time.

  521. Steve H on January 11, 2024 at 10:19 am said:

    Tried to post this yesterday but summat went wrong. I see others have already addressed some of my points but here it is anyway.

    @David Morgan

    I have repeatedly – repeatedly – told you that the hair was from a clump found in the plaster cast. There was a video on YouTube (Stateline Report Part 1) showing this, when Abbott and his students visited the Police Museum in 2009. This has recently been taken off YouTube for violating their rules for some reason. The police then gave him permission to take some of this hair – nothing to do with Paul Lawson! You have a remarkable capacity for completely ignoring evidence that doesn’t fit your agenda, as with Dorothy’s divorce affidavit where you totally failed to address any of the points I made in reply to your attack on a woman we know hardly anything about.

    To call Abbott and Fitzpatrick “liars” is a very ugly and unjustified accusation and totally inaccurate in this instance. Actually my time looking into and commenting on this case and others has convinced me that most internet true crime commentators are deluded, ignorant, prejudiced, small minded, blinkered, monomaniacal and narcissistic fools and many of them are simply liars – look at John Sanders who ties himself up in knots in his lack of ability to admit when he has got things wrong, which is most of the time.

    From the ABC Q & A session, 3 Aug 2022:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-03/somerton-man-breakthrough-dna-ask-the-experts/101287824

    “How do you get the DNA for this sort of thing? For example, do you have to get police to agree to release it or are there other ways you go about doing this sort of investigation?

    Here’s Colleen Fitzpatrick:

    We usually obtain DNA on a case from a law enforcement agency, but in this case, Derek Abbott had strands of hair that he had already obtained through the South Australian Police.”

    “Is there a possibility that the hair found in the plaster cast could have come from one of those making the cast?

    – Ric

    Here’s Derek Abbott:

    The plaster bust was moulded directly off the dead body. So the hairs are actually standing on end in a manner that is obviously from the body. Confirmatory evidence is that the hair’s DNA led to Charles Webb and not Paul Lawson who made the bust.

    If there were any Lawsons on the tree that would indeed be a concern. But no Lawson’s were on the tree at all. The police also have Paul Lawson’s DNA as a matter of procedure, but I doubt the Coroner will want to see that.

    The Coroner will probably be more interested in matching the hair’s DNA to that of the exhumed body, to tick all the boxes.”

    “I thought that hair contained only mitochondrial DNA, so how did you manage to obtain the Somerton Man’s autosomal DNA? Did you find a hair follicle, or have you developed a new technique whereby autosomal DNA can be extracted from hair itself? If the latter, is this technique likely to become mainstream? – Jeff

    Here’s Derek Abbott:

    Here’s some interesting detail that I did not tell the press as it was too technical. In the latest effort to extract DNA, I first selected a really good-looking hair root. Hair roots are classified into two categories: anagen and catagen. It’s the anagen roots that are the best for DNA extraction. So, I selected the best anagen root from the Somerton Man that I had nervously guarded for years since 2011.

    And guess what: it was a total flop…we got a very poor DNA result. I was totally gutted. How could my ‘prize’ root do that? So I went for Plan B and tried a section of hair shaft. And bingo, we got 2 million DNA markers…

    So why on earth did the hair root not work, whereas the hair shaft worked? My hypothesis is that because the hair is so old, the soft spongy root is more vulnerable to degradation, whereas the hair shaft is better protected the DNA over all those years from degradation. The hair shaft is made of keratin, which is a pretty darn tough protein. I think this worked to our advantage.

    To answer your other questions: no, hair does not only contain mitochondrial DNA. What we did was far from mainstream and is reasonably new. I believe there is only one other case in the world solved using hair shaft.”

    The hair sent for analysis was formaldehyde free and was taken by hair forensic specialist and Uni of Adelaide postgraduate student Janette Edson from the bust by sliding out a few hairs with roots on from the middle of a cluster that wasn’t touching the plaster directly.

    See:

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/somerton-man

    There’s a photo of Edson extracting the hair for Christ’s sake! But someone commented on that site:

    “David Morgan 27 JUN, 2023
    Colleen Fitzpatrick created a confusion about the use of mtDNA on the Mind over Murder podcast (time 30:30) where she says Prof Abbott’s student (implying inexpert ability) took strands of hair from the plaster cast but these weren’t used for her final tests. Others had been provided by ‘the police’.”

    Please stop spreading disinformation – that’s Gordon Cramer and Peter Bowes’ job (with their pet poodle John Sanders to yelp and snap at the naysayers). You keep going round in circles – no wonder Colleen thinks you’re a pain in the arse. This distrust by amateur sleuths of professional experts and academics is comical and deeply depressing at the same time.

    @John Sanders

    Lawson told Abbott that SM’s big toe leant in “slightly” and that his feet were “beautifully shaped” with no deformities, ie hardly likely to be genetically determined clinodactyly. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing old chap!

    See: https://youtu.be/aJUZHIlteMs?si=cZi-AfM3EAKFc3Gu&t=2238

    @Pat

    You were right about your “body for Abbie” remark a while back which John Sanders insisted was “bags for office”. Does the poodle ever stop pooping on the pavement? He also said that “E African” was “E Atrien” (“quite clear to me”). What a plonker! And he thought “pests” was “ports” which he then contrived to mean summat to do with suitcases. My colleague Lord CoB had to put him right on that one.

    Derek Abbott believes that Cleland consulted Abbie to provide info on the possible ethnicity of the Somerton man and that it was Abbie who wanted Cleland to keep the skull – See:

    https://youtu.be/1SnC9t8qGkI?si=ZQbevx5kuH_h6ooF&t=2538

    As you said to the soi-disant “humble as Trump Tower” JS on 11 November last year (LOCKYER VS LOCKYER DIVORCE FILES (CONTINUED)…):

    “You are utterly pathetic, sweetheart…

    Drop the FB joke and stick to the FACTS.

    Bags for Office, that is hilarious.”

    Don’t think I’ll be calling him sweetheart any time soon tho’!

    You said to old CoB back in November “I agree ‘ether’ is very important in this drama. I’ll be posting my hypothesis soon.” Any news on that front?

  522. David Morgan on January 11, 2024 at 6:01 pm said:

    @Poppins, it is the difficulty of getting hair from a body to a mould to a mask troubles me – it starts roots inwards, then roots outwards then roots inwards.

    In this mask they added hair back onto the mask (i.e. it had none before) and it is extremely rare:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-31966218

    When asked about getting hair from the mask Colleen said:
    “We did it the other way around, Derek had some hair from the police”

    Doesn’t that mean it wasn’t hair from the mask?

    IMO – hair would have to be added to the death mask by taxidermist Lawson. You never see it in any other death mask. Why is that?

    For a taxidermist hair would be a significant factor.

  523. @ David Morgan,

    When Colleen says ‘from the police’, I think she means the police museum where the plaster cast was/is kept.

  524. Poppins on January 11, 2024 at 9:05 pm said:

    @DavidMorgan – Bill: “So you brought in Astrea to take a look at the hair that was left from the mask that had been sitting there for decades.” Colleen: “We did it the other way around. Derek had some hair from the police 10 years earlier.” Colleen means they didn’t have Astrea extract the hair from the mask, Derek had already done it – that’s how I understand it.

  525. Byron Deveson on January 11, 2024 at 10:49 pm said:

    David, I have personal experience with plaster death masks and I can confirm that facial hair can be preserved. In my job 5+ decades ago I had to take and then deliver samples to a one-man laboratory beneath the Institute of Anatomy in Canberra. This was a makeshift laboratory in the basement and to get to it I had to wend my way through the anatomical specimens store room. This collection included about 15 plaster death masks and I noted that several contained hair.
    These death masks are probably still in the Institute’s collection if anybody wants to check.

  526. John Sanders on January 12, 2024 at 6:24 am said:

    David Morgan: I seem to recall Otto Rau or maybe his protoge Lawson saying that fine cast fixing hair for museum purposes was derived from Adelaide Zoo animals. In fact Paul Lawson once very nearly succumbed from exposure to a zoo ape which he’d apparently been stuffing.

  527. John Sanders on January 12, 2024 at 6:38 am said:

    …that of course was pre ’48 with arrival of Madam Josephine Piazza’s high end salons with clientele the likes of Marlene Deitrich. Wonder who’s gorgeous locks ended up being added to the pot for SM’s plaster fix mix?

  528. David Morgan on January 12, 2024 at 12:36 pm said:

    @Byron Deveson

    I think Feltus mentioned some short life-span of hair roots. So the hair is root in in the body then root out in the mould then root in in the face mask. Between each stage there would be at least 48 hours. I imagine they wanted to be certain the mold was dry before trying to create the mask. Then they might sprinkle talc inside to stop the mask sticking when they pour in the clay.

    It is the detailed description of a bundle with good hair between the bundle ie. the most exposed bundle survived. I’m sorry I don’t believe that account.

    I imagine for realism Lawson stuck some hair into the mask as he would for his taxidermy projects – say a cat that had a bald patch he might fill in the gap. I don’t believe these bundles existed unless Lawson stuck a large clump in the clay and most fell away or was brushed off.

    I have never heard of hair being tested in a clay mask. Why was Abbott the first person in history to see the hair in a mask and test it?

  529. David Morgan on January 12, 2024 at 12:55 pm said:

    Testing hair in face masks would be an amazing DNA project – imagine getting hair from someone like Napolean and showing he was illegitimate.

    Gustav Mahler
    Sir Isaac Newton
    Dante Alighieri
    Ludwig van Beethoven
    Napoleon Bonaparte
    Filippo Brunelleschi
    Frédéric Chopin
    Oliver Cromwell
    Joseph Haydn
    John Keats
    Franz Liszt
    Blaise Pascal
    Nikola Tesla
    Torquato Tasso
    Voltaire
    Admiral Horatio Nelson
    William Shakespeare
    Martin Luther
    Felix Mendelssohn
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

    My guess is if I write to the museums for my fictional hair DNA testing project they will say no hair is visible. Perhaps they were too famous to have hair.

  530. David Morgan on January 12, 2024 at 2:40 pm said:

    I have already tried one museum. Let’s see how many clay death masks have hair. My guess is NONE of famous people!

  531. Steve H on January 12, 2024 at 6:57 pm said:

    This is the fourth time I have tried to post a comment on this thread in the last few days. Perhaps I’m banned – not before time!

    @David Morgan

    If you read the Spectrum article that Pat linked – and I had linked in one of my censored comments two or three days ago – you would note that the person who removed the hairs from the cast is Janette Edson, a hair DNA specialist and then a PhD student at the University of Adelaide.

    See: https://spectrum.ieee.org/somerton-man

    “As the death mask had been molded directly off the Somerton Man’s head, neck, and upper body, some of the man’s hair was embedded in the plaster of ­Paris—a potential DNA gold mine. At the University of ­Adelaide, I had the assistance of a hair forensics expert, Janette Edson. In 2012, with the permission of the police, Janette used a magnifying glass to find where several hairs came together in a cluster. She was then able to pull out single strands without breaking them or damaging the plaster matrix. She thus secured the soft, spongy hair roots as well as several lengths of hair shaft. The received wisdom of forensic science at the time held that the hair shaft would be useless for DNA analysis without the hair root.

    Janette performed our first DNA analysis in 2015 and, from the hair root, was able to place the sample within a maternal genetic lineage, or haplotype, known as “H,” which is widely spread around Europe. (Such maternally inherited DNA comes not from the nucleus of a cell but from the mitochondria.) The test therefore told us little we hadn’t already known. The concentration of DNA was far too low for the technology of the time to piece together the sequencing we needed.”

    There’s even a photo of her extracting the hairs! But you HAD already read the article as you made a comment on their website, harping on your usual refrain about Colleen’s comment on the Mind Over Murder podcast:

    ” David Morgan 27 JUN, 2023
    Colleen Fitzpatrick created a confusion about the use of mtDNA on the Mind over Murder podcast (time 30:30) where she says Prof Abbott’s student (implying inexpert ability) took strands of hair from the plaster cast but these weren’t used for her final tests. Others had been provided by ‘the police’.”

    I have TWICE in the past (firstly on June 25, 2023 at 1:41 pm THE SOMERTON MAN, WHERE NEXT? thread) replied to you advising of a video on YouTube showing Derek and his students visiting the Police Museum and commenting on the hairs. This was a Stateline Report from 2009 – Tamam Shud Case (Part 1) – and Derek mused on their possible use for DNA analysis. The video was taken down recently for “violating YouTube’s guidelines”. You could clearly see the clump of hairs! Interesting that it was filmed in 2009 as Derek says that Edson only extracted the hairs in 2012. Part 2 of the Stateline Report featuring the same students is still available:

    https://youtu.be/GNgsA1aHNHA?si=R2pBGcMZrEXl1Tj1

    Are you claiming to be more of an expert on hair forensics than Janette Edson? See: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150716092021.htm

    Your accusation that Abbott and Fitzpatrick are liars is ugly, unsubstantiated, misdirected and morally repugnant. Just like your character assassination of Dorothy in fact. When counter evidence is provided you just ignore it. You didn’t address any of the points I made about Dorothy’s affidavit. Actual engagement with analytical points or arguments just doesn’t happen here (Jo is the only exception) or elsewhere on this case. Instead there is a concentration on irrelevant minutiae or the resort to slanging matches – which I am very happy to indulge in as you will have noticed!

    Please stop spreading disinformation. That’s Gordon Cramer and Peter Bowes’ job, supported by their pet poodle John Sanders who yelps and snaps around everyone else’s ankles and poops all over the pavement when he doesn’t get his own way or is bested by other commenters (as is usually the case).

  532. Byron Deveson on January 12, 2024 at 7:45 pm said:

    The reason why the death masks of “famous people” don’t have stubble etc. is obvious. It isn’t a good look and the masks have been tidied up..
    The death masks that I have seen were said to have been made with plaster of Paris which hardens in twenty minutes or so. “Clay” just would not work. I do geochemical research into clay minerals and no “clay” would have the required properties. Plaster of Paris has been available since ancient times.

  533. Steve H: unfortunately your comments were auto-classified as spam, not moderated by me. To find them I had to grind through 200+ crypto spam comments, which to be fair was more enjoyable than most Facebook comment threads.

  534. Poppins on January 12, 2024 at 10:31 pm said:

    Here it is @Pat and @AT – they say images can only be used for research, so this is research. The images aren’t really clear, but maybe the original at library is clearer, not sure. Anyhoo …..
    https://imgur.com/IK026iV
    https://imgur.com/G70QnGs

  535. john sanders on January 12, 2024 at 11:20 pm said:

    Steve H…”Pet Poodle” in its original form over Peteb’s place was intended as an affront to me the Colonel and was the brainchild of the dud 4711 and Joe blow from memory. Hardly surprising that you would pick up on it, as you’re inclined to do mimic other moron’s lame brained not so funny word connotation catch phrases…Any news on Somerton PARK Mebun mate?

  536. David Morgan on January 13, 2024 at 2:30 am said:

    @ByronDeveson,

    So you are saying even the hair on his head was real in plaster of Paris – his head wasn’t shaved?

    Because if you have this huge volume of hair on his head why pluck away at his chest?

    This example is from a man with a beard (guy on right) -where they used alginate then plaster of Paris and yes they said hair would be transferred from his face into the alginate and presumably into the Plaster. But notice how badly constructed it is with hair versus the one on the left.

    https://content.instructables.com/F2A/CZ6J/FLKJYGGV/F2ACZ6JFLKJYGGV.jpg?auto=webp&frame=1&width=1024&height=1024&fit=bounds&md=9ed4be3f1b910ca1a2be22128d68498b

    But more importantly look at Carl’s eyebrows. Why not pluck hair from his bushy eyebrows. Why from his chest?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/SomertonMan2.jpg/220px-SomertonMan2.jpg

    https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/b37ade75abdc4136e0690df3f560b729?impolicy=wcms_crop_resize&cropH=533&cropW=800&xPos=0&yPos=42&width=862&height=575

    The answer surely must be they were shaved and then fake hair and eyebrows created? Why search out a tiny source of hair on his chest when you have an abundance on his head?

    Also an older man like Carl would likely also have lengthy swirly chest hair not short stubbles. Yet we don’t see it in the death mask.

    I really don’t believe the police would seek out Abbott in the university to give him hair. I mean I was an electronic engineer (by qualification) and the police never asked me to check DNA on a cold case. Yet I have asked them.

  537. John Sanders on January 13, 2024 at 7:41 am said:

    David Morgan…you’d be on the money with Telly Savalas and Yul Brynner as for sparsity of hair on their Mdm. Tusseaud’s busts (King & I) (Kojak) in Hollywood.
    Memory serves me correctly it was Henry III what brought the bacon home to Blighty in 1254 after visiting with frog mate Louis IX over the way and seeing the white plaster all over the penitentiare walls in gay Paris. As for Spam man Steve H. aka. Bob Nowak and Ann O h so boring &c. let her rip but please Huey, not RIP!

  538. David Morgan on January 13, 2024 at 11:43 am said:

    @JS,

    But I do believe the hair tested was Carl’s. It is just how it was obtained I don’t believe. I think Lawson just had a paper bag with hair after he shaved it off. As he was getting to 100 he may have decided to give it to Abbott a sort of pre-Will gift.

    Then the plot makes sense to me.

    Lawson may have told him he put hair on Carl’s chest – a taxidermy reality effect which Feltus saw as ginger. But initially Feltus didn’t get anything from it with DNA testing. But it was only the hair given to Abbott 10 years ago (he says from the police!) that had good mtDNA from which they grew DNA.

    I’m still not sure how you get the dad’s part of the DNA from the mother’s mtDNA. It makes me think of AI creating fake images of people with 6 fingers.

  539. John Sanders on January 13, 2024 at 11:42 pm said:

    David Morgan: The current hair conundrum was discussed right here and al length years ago pre Webb with no resultant interest from anyone except Gordon Cramer who liked it so much he decided to own the main points and capitalise on them as is his wont. Both you and Behrooz along with some other hangers on appear to be in a sort of alignment of thought, problem being that neither of you have enough pluck to come out and say what so badly needs saying ie. Carl Webb is an imposter and a cruel hoax played on unsuspecting dupes. In our final run to the finish line we must display inbridled determination, not seen to be flip flopping on essential issues like proofs. This isn’t the time for picking select cherries from the bunch or taking two bites of same, more to the point we must look the part of a well oiled team, not a disgruntled sniping rabble that we’re portrayed by many as being. No doubting we’re the good guys with right on our side, so let’s get down to business, our aim not to shame and blame the lame, but to give Somerton Man a name.

  540. Byron Deveson on January 14, 2024 at 2:31 am said:

    David, in answer:
    So you are saying even the hair on his head was real in plaster of Paris – his head wasn’t shaved?
    Paul was a bit unclear on this point. From memory Paul did mention that some parts of SM were coated with something to prevent hair etc sticking to the plaster (probably an oil based product, most likely vaseline). You have to remember that SM was decomposing by the time the death mask was made and this would have made Paul’s job even more difficult. One problem would have been the skin sticking to the plaster (in this case when the mould was pulled of it would have ripped off skin and tissue; decomposing skin and tissue) so Paul would have coated all of SM’s head, face and shoulders with vaseline or similar. I doubt that it would have been possible to shave the hair off SM at the advanced stage of decomposition. So Paul just did what he could and used his taxidermy skills to work around the problems.
    Because if you have this huge volume of hair on his head why pluck away at his chest?
    It seems that the head hair was so slicked down with grease (and a hair net might have been used to keep the hair together) that no hair was trapped by the plaster. Paul may not have even taken a full head mask and may have just sculptured the missing parts (such as the head hair) of the final bust based on the autopsy photos.
    This example is from a man with a beard (guy on right) -where they used alginate then plaster of Paris and yes they said hair would be transferred from his face into the alginate and presumably into the Plaster. But notice how badly constructed it is with hair versus the one on the left.
    Yes, and that supports my point that Paul probably avoided the problem by making sure that the large patches of hair didn’t get captured in the plaster. Paul was a taxidermist and they have to do a lot of reconstruction to create a believable finished product. In short, Paul did some reconstruction on the SM bust consistent with the photos.
    But more importantly look at Carl’s eyebrows. Why not pluck hair from his bushy eyebrows. Why from his chest?
    Because it seems that Paul coated SM’s eyebrows with vaseline or similar, so no hair stuck in the plaster and there is no preserved hair to recover. Can you imagine what it would have happened if the eyebrows were trapped in the plaster? It would have been very difficult to pull the plaster of the rotting face. Bits of rotting flesh would have been pulled out by the hair. Paul would have known that and would have taken great care to avoid this. But the occasional hair on other parts of the body would not have been a problem and were trapped in the plaster.
    The answer surely must be they were shaved and then fake hair and eyebrows created? Why search out a tiny source of hair on his chest when you have an abundance on his head?
    The vaseline cover would have allowed a realistic mould to be made of the eyebrows and scalp hair. The vaseline (hydrophobic=oily) stops the plaster (hydrophilic) from sticking to the plaster.
    Also an older man like Carl would likely also have lengthy swirly chest hair not short stubble. Yet we don’t see it in the death mask.
    Paul (and maybe Dwyer?) stated the SM had only sparse body hair and I presume that the Police museum people were happier if hair was taken from places where any damage to the plaster would be less important. Paul did a good job and avoided the problems mentioned above so hair was not captured from the hairy parts of SM’s body but occasional hairs in other locations were captured.
    I really don’t believe the police would seek out Abbott in the university to give him hair. I mean I was an electronic engineer (by qualification) and the police never asked me to check DNA on a cold case.

    Prof. Abbott is much more than an electronics engineer. He is a high flying physicist who has talents and interests in a wide range of subjects. DA and his students are often working at the cutting edge of things that will shape the technological future.

    I understand that the Prof has helped SAPOL in various cases where physics expertise was required, so the brass at SAPOL already knew DA. The Prof has expertise in several areas that are germane to the matter of DNA testing and evaluation, for example:

    Biomedical and bio-inspired engineering
    Optical/Infrared/mm-Wave/T-ray vision systems and sensors
    Novel analog VLSI circuits
    Game theory and information theory
    Complex systems and quantum systems
    Stochastic phenomena
    Computational neuroscience
    Forensic engineering
    Forensic genealogy

    T-rays; terahertz technology; lasers; biophotonics; bio-sensing; bioinformatics; forensic engineering, forensic genealogy, platonism in science; nature of physics; quantum mechanics; game theory; puzzles; games of chance; probability; code cracking; authorship detection; what is scientific research?; problem solving; complex systems; biomedical engineering; vision systems; how to solve the world’s energy needs?; order from randomness.

    But I do believe the hair tested was Carl’s. It is just how it was obtained I don’t believe. I think Lawson just had a paper bag with hair after he shaved it off. As he was getting to 100 he may have decided to give it to Abbott a sort of pre-Will gift. Then the plot makes sense to me.
    I agree that there is some feeling of obfuscation and even cover up. Why? I don’t know. I have some theories, but no evidence to back them. Paul was evasive at times and the whole SM affair felt like a confection to me. That is one of the reasons why I felt, and still do, that the intelligence services were involved somehow. “Artful sods” was Len Deighton’s apt description of them.
    Lawson may have told him he put hair on Carl’s chest – a taxidermy reality effect which Feltus saw as ginger. But initially Feltus didn’t get anything from it with DNA testing. But it was only the hair given to Abbott 10 years ago (he says from the police!) that had good mtDNA from which they grew DNA.
    The initial DNA recovery was mitochondrial DNA that is present in hair at a concentration of about a thousand times that of autosomal DNA, so it was easier to recover. But the technology of recovering DNA has improved tremendously in the last few years so it became possible to recover a fair amount of SM’s autosomal DNA, and that is what lead to the identification of the Webb ancestry.
    I’m still not sure how you get the dad’s part of the DNA from the mother’s mtDNA. It makes me think of AI creating fake images of people with 6 fingers.

    The mitochondrial DNA was recovered initially. The autosomal DNA comes from both parents and was recovered later. In my case I currently have over ten thousand DNA matches and for about a thousand of these matches the ancestral connection has been established. To give just one example my multiple DNA matches lead back to an individual, one Royall Peckham born 1718 at Minstead, Hampshire. The multiple matches remove all doubt of any error. Yes, “non paternal events” and adoptions are commonplace but these just complicate the process rather than derailing it. I have successfully traced otherwise unknown parents for friends and associates. I have more than sixty family trees on the go and only one of these is my family. The other relate to friends and associates, or to historical figures. One relates to the mother of the “Sundance Kid” Mrs Longabaugh nee Place. You might remember that Sundance’s girl friend, played by the delectable Katherine Ross, went by the name Etta Place and she is still otherwise unidentified. An outlaw who escaped, but it might become possible to identify her one day.

    My mitochondrial DNA (mDNA) is identical to that recovered from an iron age Celtic skeleton from Hinxton, Cambridgeshire. Mitochondrial DNA changes (mutates) very slowly whereas autosomal DNA mutates quickly and we are born with about thirty new SNP mutations that were not present in either of our parents. I have just over seventy thousand SNP mutations as compared with the baseline standard. That is a bog standard number of mutations (called “variants”). There are many other types of mutations/variants but the simplest, the SNPs, are more than enough to put a unique genetic “bar code” on everyone. Remember the time when some researcher, somewhere, would breathlessly report that they had identified a mutation in some individual and offer some apparently plausible explanation? Something along the lines that the individual liked a pint or two scrumpy, so the mutation must have been due to the lead that was once added to scrumpy. Or those A-bomb tests a few year previously? Or some food additive? But all this talk of “mutations” faded quietly away as it became clear that “mutations” are as common as dirt. And it didn’t help the cause when it was discovered that the principal test used to establish if a “chemical” (and wtf isn’t “chemical”?) was carcinogenic or not was arse about.

    I agree with your reservations concerning AI. I foresee a massive AI train wreck and I don’t need AI to work out what can and will go wrong. Remember Catastrophe Theory and the enthusiasm that it generated? Where is it now? Luckily catastrophe theory didn’t have the potential to injure or kill us all whereas AI does.

  541. John Sanders on January 14, 2024 at 11:13 am said:

    Byron Deveson: apologies for not having patience to finish your piece, but think I get your drift. Thought I should let you know that pathologist Dwyer made sure to mention that his slab subject was not a particularly hairy bloke, so we can forget your swirling chest hair scenario, looks like a no go.

  542. @ Byron Deveson

    Just a small correction:

    You said ” Mitochondrial DNA changes (mutates) very slowly whereas autosomal DNA mutates quickly and we are born with about thirty new SNP mutations that were not present in either of our parents..”

    Actually…

    ‘The prevailing view is that animal mtDNA is maternally transmitted, non-recombining and with elevated mutation rate compared to nuclear DNA.’

    The higher rate of mutation makes total sense given that mitochondria were probably bacteria that evolved symbiotically inside eukaryotic cells.

    Maybe you meant to say that mitochondrial genes mutates very slowly.

  543. Steve H on January 14, 2024 at 7:07 pm said:

    @Byron Deveson

    Well done for countering the unwarranted character assassination of Derek Abbott. It has now become an absurd race to the bottom in the scramble to discredit the man in the hope that SM will be declared by SAPOL to be someone other than Carl Webb or even a still “unidentifiable” man.

    Gawd help us, even Behrooz is back with his childish “unofficial team” nonsense (“I guess I will be able to prove it [that SM is Carl Webb] better than even the unofficial team’s baffling tale of hair clusters can do”), and his half baked pseudo-science, bemoaning the fact that “Unfortunately, the good folks on this site have not been interested in my line of explanations”. No we ain’t cos they are fantasies, and ludicrously over-elaborated fantasies at that. Only someone stuck up their own ivory tower would even consider blighting this investigation with rubbish like his Gurdjieff derived dance of death chimera.

    As regards the hair on the chest, according to the blurb on this video –
    https://youtu.be/z0h-s67LUhg?feature=shared :

    “The idea of this video is to give a close-up of the of the Somerton Man’s plaster bust (ie. death mask) so investigators can see detailed features. Points to notice are:

    a) The characteristic hairline
    b) Forehead creases
    c) Crows feet around eyes
    d) Small lump on his left of his forehead.
    e) Small crease near top of his nose (notice
    that crease is also there in the autopsy photos)
    f) Notice that whilst he does not have a hairy chest, you can see a few isolated hairs on his chest.
    g) Notice he has full eyebrows (in the autopsy photo, part of his eyebrow isn’t clear, but the bust shows the eyebrow really is all there).
    h) Notice the plaster has not reproduced the ears correctly (Paul Lawson confirmed the ears were very difficult to mould and did go wrong).
    i) The camera is tilted to show what happens to the relative sizes of the cavum and cymba with angle. This highlights that when doing ear comparisons it is important to use photos not taken at an angle.”

    See also my comment on this thread of January 10, 2024 at 11:17 pm (which originally went to spam so was eventually posted three times, the third time in a modified form!) which contains some quotes on this matter from Abbott and Fitzpatrick from the ABC 3 August 2022 SM Q&A.

    I repeat myself: “The hair sent for analysis was formaldehyde free and was taken by hair forensic specialist and Uni of Adelaide postgraduate student Janette Edson from the bust by sliding out a few hairs with roots on from the middle of a cluster that wasn’t touching the plaster directly.”

    David Morgan isn’t even capable of defending himself when provided with the, um, evidence. Hence his lack of response to my earlier comment. So now you have Morgan and Behrooz believing SM is Carl Webb (but not because of the hair evidence) and Cramer, Bowes and their pet chihuahua Sanders throwing out the Webb connection completely. The barricades are being put in place as I speak! Roll on the SAPOL report.

  544. John Sanders on January 15, 2024 at 2:38 am said:

    Pat Valle: don’t mind Byron Deveson’s occasional gaff, he’s known for some real
    humdingers in the past. Like partner in grime Gordon Cramer this artful dodger, and humble self labeled Retired Scientist is unlikely to back down when found to be in err. Let’s wait and see what BD has to say, if anything, re your well spotted reverse mt/DNA catch out. Let’s hope misandrist @Ann O doesn’t take sides.

  545. David Morgan on January 15, 2024 at 8:17 am said:

    An Australian PHD expert…
    Alexandra Roginski

    “the process involved SHAVING…”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo5uEI4IaAw

    Ned Kelly’s death mask – notice the beard and hairline…what do you mean you can’t see it?

    https://joyofmuseums.com/museums/australasia-museums/australian-museums/museums-in-canberra-australia/national-portrait-gallery-canberra-australia/ned-kelly-death-mask/

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ned-Kelly-Australian-bandit

  546. Byron Deveson on January 15, 2024 at 10:08 am said:

    Pat, you are correct. I should have made it clear that I was talking in terms of absolute rates of change and not relative rates of change. In relative terms mitochondrial DNA does mutates much faster than autosomal DNA. The human mitochondrial DNA is about 16,569 base pairs whereas the autosome contains contains about three billion and is a very much larger target.

  547. David Morgan on January 15, 2024 at 6:54 pm said:

    @Steve H,

    I have 3 sources of evidence to say Carl is SM.
    1). Abbott’s mtDNA match [which i think is from a paper bag of hair swept up off the floor by Lawson]
    2). Facial ID (which I also checked my results with an expert)
    3). Genealogy – I can see Carl is labelled as SM. If genealogy told me I was me why would I doubt it?

    …and
    4). Potentially CM may pinpoint him over time.

    Perhaps someone can ask Rogninski about finding hair on the SM in the museum.

  548. David Morgan on January 15, 2024 at 7:48 pm said:

    Of course, if you go to the police museum now everyone will say you can’t find hair bundles on SM’s death mask now because we took it all.

    I still can’t figure how unattached hair was in the centre of a bundle when it first went into the mould and then transferred to the clay bust.

    Perhaps someone who waxes their legs can do a similar test after 24 hours to wax the wax to check for percentage hair transfer and find a loose bundle of hair.

    I could easily imagine taxidermists have methods to deal with hair bundles they wish to insert/glue into stuffed pets.

    clay = plaster of Paris if you like.

  549. Steve H on January 16, 2024 at 12:11 am said:

    @David Morgan (et al)

    Further to my post above.

    Some precise dates concerning the hair issue.

    From Derek Abbott’s University of Adelaide ‘Timeline of the Tamam Shud Case’:

    “2009 March 19th, The Adelaide University project team, with an ABC film crew, all visit the SA Police Museum and examine the bust of the Somerton man closely, noting that hair is definitely embedded in the plaster cast and Prof Derek Abbott notices the ears of the man are distinctive.”

    “2009 March 27th, ABC Stateline broadcast a story on the Somerton mystery.” (This is the video that has mysteriously been taken down by YouTube! I saw it a couple of times and it had been there since 2010 until late last year. The second Stateline Report, which I provided a link to, was aired 1st May 2009.)

    To quote again from the Spectrum article ‘How an Electrical Engineer Solved Australia’s Most Famous Cold Case’:

    “In 2012, with the permission of the police, Janette [Edson] used a magnifying glass* to find where several hairs came together in a cluster. She was then able to pull out single strands without breaking them or damaging the plaster matrix.”

    *SEE THE DARNED ARTICLE FOR A PHOTO OF THIS!

    “Janette performed our first DNA analysis in 2015 and, from the hair root, was able to place the sample within a maternal genetic lineage, or haplotype, known as “H,” which is widely spread around Europe.”

    “In 2022, at the suggestion of Colleen Fitzpatrick, a former NASA employee who had trained as a nuclear physicist but then became a forensic genetics expert, I sent a hair sample to Astrea Forensics, a DNA lab in the United States.”

    There is NO question that after visiting the Police Museum with his students in 2009 DA asked the police at some stage if he could take some of the hairs. Not sweepings from Paul Lawson – don’t know where that idea comes from.

    Gordon Cramer had posted some deliberate disinformation last year that the Astrea Forensics lab was no longer operational. Not true. See this from October 2023 (‘Rootless Hair Sample, Genealogy Help ID Suspect in 1983 Murder of 14-Year-Old’):

    https://www.astreaforensics.com/new-blog/hair-strand-and-dna-sleuths-crack-murder-of-teenage-girl

    Click on the link there for the full story in Forensic Magazine.

    “They [the investigators] finally got their big breakthrough when detectives discussed using forensic investigative genetic genealogy in 2022. Looking through the evidence for samples that meet FIGG requirements, the investigators were thrilled to find a rootless strand of hair recovered from Ward’s body that did not belong to her. As the foremost experts in this type of analysis, the Sheriff’s Office sent the sample to Astrea Forensics for analysis.

    Once the genotype file was completed by Astrea, the FBI’s Genetic Genealogy Task Force got involved. While the genealogy process can be lengthy sometimes, it was not in this case. The FBI quickly developed a lead, identifying Johnny Lee Coy as a possible suspect.”

    Astrea Forensics “Mission Statement”:

    “Astrea Forensics® was founded in 2019 by paleogeneticists to apply ancient DNA techniques and direct genome sequencing to difficult-to-solve forensic casework and the identification of human remains. Astrea’s proprietary methods make it possible to recover genetic profiles from rootless hair and other highly degraded samples that otherwise fail traditional forensic DNA testing. The Astrea® technology will help empower law enforcement and genetic genealogy investigators in their mission to solve cold cases, and determine the identify of unknown individuals, whether days or decades old.”

    Thanks Mr Morgan for your comments about SM being Carl Webb. Something we can definitely agree on!

  550. David Morgan on January 16, 2024 at 10:36 am said:

    So it was Feltus who said ginger chest hair.

    But now looking at the images it shows hair in a raised crease like an eyebrow. They say grey or mousey coloured hair.

    https://imgur.com/a/nteMEly

  551. Byron Deveson on January 16, 2024 at 11:41 am said:

    David, a few years ago a possible connection to the Beaumont children disappearance emerged and from this a possible connection to the “Satin Man” and his new light alloy casting factory in Glenelg. At the time I wondered if the lead (and other elements) in SM’s hair could indicate that SM was involved in secondary metallurgy. From memory, in late 1948 the “Satin Man” was advertising for staff for the new factory.
    The various anomalous concentrations of various elements previously found in SM’s hair are not explained by anything that has been discovered about Carl Webb. It will be interesting to see if the forensic work on SM’s remains discover any signs of excessive lead exposure. If SM had some degree of lead poisoning this could show up in X-rays of SM’s bones (“lead lines”).
    SM’s hair also showed elevated levels of strontium which could indicate a recent diet high in sea food. Or the strontium could have been absorbed by the hair over time from the plaster of Paris of the mold. Plaster of Paris is calcium sulphate and usually carries some strontium. Long ago I described how it was quite possible that the Plaster of Paris used by PL could have contained anomalous concentrations of strontium. This could be tested simply by scanning the plaster bust with a hand held X-Ray fluorescence spectrometer (pXRF). These aren’t exactly rare these days and SAPOL or the Uni should be able to access one. A pXRF scan of the bust could also check if the anomalous lead is due to any materials that PL might have used in making the bust (mold releasing agents for example).
    The question of lead poisoning is important because as I have previously explained a degree of lead poisoning could potentiate the toxicity of digitalis drugs, particularly if SM suffered from a connective tissue disorder (CTD). I previously explained why I suspect that SM suffered from a CTD. Recent research has shown that 70% of people with CTD also have personality disorder (which is a severe psychiatric illness, and still untreatable as I understand)., which could explain Carl’s social avoidance. And CTD is often associated with severe and persistent pain syndromes and we know that Carl was said to be a heavy user of analgesics. The use of analgesics, particularly codeine, by a person with CTD will lead to both addiction and toxicity with associated psychiatric effects. The CTD can reduce the elimination from the body of things like codeine (and lead and barium) and it’s metabolites so the psychological effects are potentiated by the quadruple whammy of the existing CTD genotype with the associated personality disturbance, the associated severe pain syndrome, leading to the analgesic use and the associated addiction pushed by the reduced elimination due to genetic changes in the liver and kidney associated with CTD. In other words, a genetic train wreck.
    Digitalis drugs are highly toxic and normal therapeutic doses are 25% of a lethal dose (that is why physicians are very careful with establishing an appropriate dose for a patient). Things such as lead (or barium) poisoning, or genetic mutations associated with CTD (which can reduce the efficiency of the functioning of both the liver and kidney and so reduce the elimination of toxic materials such as lead and barium (and also codeine and digitalis drugs) can make an otherwise normal therapeutic dose of digitalis or codeine toxic.
    Why did I mention barium? Well, just prior to the SM affair an impure batch of barium sulphate X-ray contrast medium was manufactured by the Bickford company in Glenelg (the Crippled Children’s hospital was associated with the Bickford’s and SM was found across the road from the Crippled Children’s hospital). This X-ray contrast medium contaminated with soluble barium killed at least a couple of people. I am reminded that the pathologist noted a patch of whitish material in SM’s throat. Maybe a remnant of recent barium sulphate contrast medium?
    Maybe, but all of the above is potentially testable and that is the difference between the above and “just speculation”.

  552. Steve H on January 16, 2024 at 8:11 pm said:

    RIGHT TO REPLY PARTS 1, 2 and 3

    This is becoming quite hilarious now.

    1) Over on TS/BS:

    “Anonymous15 January 2024 at 09:56

    Hey Mr.C. Was the hair sample that the prof organised complete with the root? Only one of the gurus, (Steve?) on the gossip blog says it was but I thought it wasn’t?”

    No, not Steve! I am fully aware that the original sample DA sent to Astrea DID have a root attached, but this was unsuccessful, so then a hair without a root was sent. See my post of 10 Jan at 11.17pm quoting DA, which because of a mysterious “spam” incident was repeated and rehashed several times.

    Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
    Lovely spam! Wonderful spam
    Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-am
    Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-am
    SPA-A-A-A-A-A-A-AM
    SPA-A-A-A-A-A-A-AM

    “Here’s Derek Abbott:

    Here’s some interesting detail that I did not tell the press as it was too technical. In the latest effort to extract DNA, I first selected a really good-looking hair root. Hair roots are classified into two categories: anagen and catagen. It’s the anagen roots that are the best for DNA extraction. So, I selected the best anagen root from the Somerton Man that I had nervously guarded for years since 2011.

    And guess what: it was a total flop…we got a very poor DNA result. I was totally gutted. How could my ‘prize’ root do that? So I went for Plan B and tried a section of hair shaft. And bingo, we got 2 million DNA markers…”

    This is Derek talking about the methodology used:

    https://youtu.be/2a4Zvfkoniw?si=WWQOnwP7tcMzU3ax&t=4690

    Poppins linked this previously but I have “started” the video from the relevant observations.

    Back to TS/BS:

    “Gordon33215 January 2024 at 10:08
    And I took the liberty of visiting the other blog and Steve’s comments:..

    Seems that your guru got it wrong.”

    Also:

    “Gordon33216 January 2024 at 09:34

    Don’t feel too bad Steve H, even the best of us make mistakes at times.”

    A sentiment I quite agree with Mr C, but when I am misrepresented as saying the exact opposite of what I actually said I start to take umbrage. And it’s not the first time you’ve done it. Remember Tony Elliottgate?

    In your Anemptyglass Wikia piece ‘The Carl Webb Saga’ you say:

    “In the [IEEE Spectrum magazine] article, according to the Professor stated [sic] that the linking of the DNA results to Carl Webb did not come from the Astrea Lab analysis, it actually came from an engineering method known as imputation, imputation does not give a 100% accurate result and is therefore not reliable.”

    Rubbish! You didn’t quote the important bit:

    “Seemingly out of options, we tried a desperate move. We asked Astrea to analyze a 5-centimeter-long shaft of hair that had no root at all. Bang! The company retrieved 2 million SNPs. The identity of the Somerton Man was now within our reach….

    We uploaded our 2 million SNPs to GEDmatch Pro, an online genealogical database located in Lake Worth, Fla. (and recently acquired by Qiagen, a biotech company based in the Netherlands). The closest match was a rather distant relative based in Victoria, Australia…

    And so, when Astrea retrieved the 2 million SNPs, the company didn’t rely on the traditional framework for DNA-sequencing reads. It used a completely different mathematical framework, called imputation. The concept of imputation is not yet fully appreciated by forensics experts who have a biological background. However, for an electronics engineer, the concept is similar to error correction: We infer and “impute” bits of information that have dropped out of a received digital signal.”

    To be honest Gord I don’t mind. At least you are reading my posts (and consider me a guru) and engaging with me which is more than most here do. I like a bit of to-and-fro. And compared to Behrooz you are an intellectual giant!

    2) If in doubt Behrooz, go for the ad hominem arguments…again…and again…and again.

    “Just because someone [ie moi] repeats himself saying the hair was uncontaminated does not make it so. If the claim is that of proving one being scientific, a simple claim does not prove anything scientifically, nor its repeat and self-quoting, other than just documenting a basically religiously held-on view of oneself as being correct and a defender-in-chief [ie moi] in ever faithful allegiance to a guru.”

    “Byron Deveson also does not seem to show any sign of an ability to step outside the circle and instead at short notice serves well to protect his guru.”

    “The function of his [Byron’s] contribution seems to be, including a habitual pattern of copy pasting from his guru’s online resume, to prove the scientific credentials of his friend, not befitting a retired scientist with an independent mind. I recall a long time ago I asked Deveson a question about DNA matters, thinking that he is a well-meaning, independent-minded, source of expert information on the topic, and it appears he was and still is so much under the influence that he found responding to such questions from me not beneath his status and not worth his while, treating my question as if contaminating his never failing behind the scenes allegiance to his friend.”

    Gurus again! Friends! Get it through your thick skull Behrooz I don’t have gurus. I am an antinomian down to my, um, hair roots. Pathetic! You are an arrogant, pompous, narcissistic, pseudo-intellectual, long-winded, patronising, block-headed, Europhobic bore! Mind you Byron doesn’t talk to me either cos he thinks I’m a “pinko”. You bloody bet I am!

    Of course you believe you have completely solved this case. Nothing else would satisfy your boundless ego. Is your lack of self-awareness so all-encompassing that you have failed to notice that even the most sycophantic fools on CM show absolutely no interest in your baroque, convoluted, over-complicated solution to this mystery? And NP must be pulling his hair out (or would be if he had any).

    “Those who are trying to defend DA/CF and whatever they have said, no matter what, seem to be caught in the Yezidi Circle of their guru influence and so keep on forever dancing to their guru’s tunes of never ending media shiny flip flop pendulum oscillations.”

    For those of you wondering about “Yezidi Circles”:

    “IN 1888 THE 16-YEAR-OLD GURDJIEFF WITNESSED a strange incident: he saw a little boy, weeping and making strange movements, struggling with all his might to break out of a circle drawn around him by other boys. Gurdjieff released the boy by erasing part of the circle and the child ran from his tormentors. The boy, Gurdjieff learned, was a Yezidi. He had heard only that Yezidis were “a sect living in Transcaucasia, mainly in the regions near Mount Ararat. Astonished by the incident, Gurdjieff made a point of telling us that he felt compelled to think seriously about the Yezidis. Inquiring of the adults he knew, he received contradictory opinions representative of the usual, prejudiced view of the Yezidis.”
    From the Gurdjieff Journal Issue #17 ‘Gurdjieff & Yezidism Part One’.

    Well that circle describes your approach Behrooz. Referring to DA you seem to think that a scientist abandoning their original hypothesis in the face of new evidence is a sign of “flip flop pendulum oscillations”. You simply don’t have ANY appreciation of the scientific method. You wouldn’t change your conclusions -from which you start your “analysis” backwards – if a mountain of empirical evidence was put up against them. Bad science, bad scholarship, bad sociology and bad ethics.

    To quote DA from the video linked above “a scientist is someone who doesn’t BELIEVE in anything” – ie believe in any one model. As the host stated from reading the comments on his videos “a) the scientific process is not really understood by most people” and b) “kind of under attack a lot of times”. A very dangerous and troubling development and anti-science people like you don’t help. Americans seem to be the worst exemplars of this trend to distrust anyone with a brain and so you’ll end up with Trump back in the White House. Good luck!

    Regarding your “approach”, as Ruth Balint said in her article ‘The Somerton Man An Unsolved History’:

    “[Walter] Benjamin, avid reader of detective novels, decried the tendency of history writing to posthumously reconstruct ‘fragmented events according to a completely fabricated architecture’. Unlike the file stamped ‘case closed’ in the police drawer, the unsolved mystery defies the comfort of a well‐ordered history with a neat resolution. There is a sort of Herodotean impulse at work in this kind of project, in that the event contains a profusion of stories about that event that are not necessarily coherent or ordered by it. Ann Curthoys and John Docker [in Is History Fiction?] describe Herodotus’s mode of storytelling by comparing it to the Thousand and One Nights, in which the frame story ‘is always in tension with the multiple stories that lead to more stories that have only an indirect or indeed no apparent relation to the frame story involving Shahriyar and Shahrazad: the stories exceed the frame story and the frame story can never rein them in’.”

    And she was a pupil of my old mate Stephen Muecke so she must be good! Look in the mirror Behrooz! Completely fabricated architecture.

    You call DA a “claimed ivy league electrical engineer”. What’s wrong with you? You are also wantonly blackening the name of Janette Edson, a hair forensic specialist, Collen Fitzpatrick whose every fart is more valuable than your entire existence, and the Astrea Lab who were set up to help solve crimes both recent and decades old. And your expertise in hair DNA analysis is…? Oh, sorry , I forgot you were omniscient. Why don’t you contact Janette Edson at the Australian Centre for Ecogenomics, University of Queensland and explain to her precisely where she got it all wrong? You can find all her details here:

    https://gih.uq.edu.au/profile/2102/janette-edson

    Or don’t you have the cojones? I await the results of your conversation with her with bated breath. Don’t forget to post them here first! I especially look forward to the peer reviews.

    3) Then John “Chihuahua” Sanders joins in: “Behrooz: I outlined in my posts on the initial Carl Webb thread August 3, 2022, that, amongst other mischief brought into play, Coleen [sic] Fitzpatrick was brought in to essentially show that Derek’s spouse be the grandchild of Somerton Man…I recommend you to read and revise my original post, if you so wish and rest my case at that.”

    Funny thing. The neighbours are having more work done on their house. I can’t concentrate enough to read anything worthwhile and mentally challenging so I resorted to having a look into a few of the cold cases I am interested in (Somerton Man, Yuba County Five, Trevor Deely, Beaumont Children etc). While looking around I came across a comment from one Sandy (aka Dusty aka We) on the excellent “I’m Kyal Shepard and I’m from Adelaide” THE DIGITAL LABYRINTH site. If you haven’t seen his brilliant (pre-Carl Webb) synopsis of the SM case (THE ULTIMATE GUIDE TO THE SOMERTON MAN MYSTERY) here it is:

    https://somerandomstuff1.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-somerton-man-mystery/

    Just don’t bother with the comments.

    Sandy:

    “Way back in 1975 I had been serving as a Commonwealth police detective in General Crime Squad duties, NSW headquarters, which for me being quite junior, included analsing [sic] gazette entries, our own and from other states regarding false pretenders who were known be itinerants. ..,.I spoke by telephone to an officer involved in the Beaumont case. He was at the time on leave and he was recalled especially to consult with me. That officer could have been Len Brown or Stan ‘killer’ Swaine?, my duty being only to pass on informatiin [sic] gleaned and after that, not unexpectedly I heard nothing more.”

    I thought “Sandy” was a top high-powered Sydney detective. Turns out he was a mere phone monkey/tea boy!

  553. John Sanders on January 17, 2024 at 2:37 am said:

    Is it mere coincidence that both Byron Deveson and Steve H. have suddenly taken up the challenge of commenting on the so called missing Beaumont children case. On the one hand we have one who refuses to discuss his blunder in falsely calling out the kids’ uncle Maxwell John [sic] for sexual assault on a girl as a juvenile, and Steve H. for his falsely linking of Lyall Shephard’s Ultimate Guide to Somerton man to comments made on the separate Beaumont case. ‘Sandy’ (me) be a long retired Commonwealth Police detective (thrice decorated) and fare to middling by self assessment and that information could have been had on Cipher Mysteries’ Jim Beaumont thread…

  554. David Morgan on January 17, 2024 at 12:50 pm said:

    As this seems to have become a dumping ground for other cases the Colonial Parkways has been solved in a similar way to Carl Webb except they had hair pulled out (I believe) by one victim.

    The Mind Over Murders podcast will likely be covering this in a next episode. The presenter Bill Thomas’ sister was the hair-pulling victim. Though perhaps they had other proper DNA.

    It would be interesting to compare hair techniques Carl v Colonial parkway killer mtDNA/DNA.

    I still don’t understand how Abbott had a hair root in testable condition. Did he creep up on Stuart Webb?

    Feltus implies hair root death within hours not 74 years.

    The image in Abbott’s article of the tested hair shows strands above a clay ridge not bundles. If you were writing a scientific paper you would demonstrate the bundle of hair with a sketch or photograph.

    You also have to remember as the mold dried the roots were exposed then possibly covered in talc before adding the Plaster of paris/clay into the mold.

    https://imgur.com/a/3gm2Lpy

  555. Steve H on January 17, 2024 at 4:47 pm said:

    Ooh er!

    On TS/BS Anonymous (presumably Gordon or his bestie Peter Bowes) has commented:

    “Anonymous 17 January 2024 at 11:49
    Yes, it’s no more than you would expect from that particular quarter [CM]. Plagiarism, deviousness, abuse and trolls are the hallmarks of the CM forum. The extended comment by Byron Devison [sic] is a prime example of work done here but reworded there. Have to say that I am surprised that Byron would stoop to that level, then again with that blog you wouldn’t know who actually posted it. I feel sorry for the genuine people who comment there, by default they’re tainted with the more odious elements that have taken over.
    Meanwhile the rifle still hangs on the wall awaiting the next inevitable scene.”

    I sleep with a Kalashnikov under MY pillow.

    @Chihuahua

    No false linking there sonny. I had a nose round the site and saw how you were talking to yourself for yonks on the SM thread I linked, but also had a dekko at the BC thread. And did you get those decorations at the Christmas do? A party hat and a garland of tinsel? Blowhard!

    Your BC troll comments are beyond laughable – nearly as nutty as Behrooz and his Yezidi Circle nonsense on the SM case. I really was too lenient on him in my previous comment – I must be getting soft now I’m an over-65!

    You asked me on this thread:

    “john sanders
    on January 12, 2024 at 11:20 pm:
    Any news on Somerton PARK Mebun mate?”

    I paid you the courtesy of a reply on the ‘ON CARL WEBB, TRUTH & BEAUTY…’ thread and you replied:

    “John Sanders
    on January 15, 2024 at 1:49 am said:
    Bob:…Who gives a frog’s arse about some park reserve at Camberfield [sic] for muck sake ‘marron’.”

    Like I’ve said before a real snake in the grass. And PLEASE enlighten me, who IS this Robert Nowak fellow? You’ve got me intrigued now. Must be a very intelligent bloke. But then you accused me of being Sue d’Nimh as well, although you accused misca of being that person too.

    Actually reading through some of your older comments on Kyal and I’m from Adelaide’s site and elsewhere I can say that at one time you showed a deal of erudition, style and wit. What the hell happened? How did you get from that to the shrivelled, embittered, illiterate disaster zone that you are now in such a short time?

  556. John Sanders on January 17, 2024 at 11:10 pm said:

    Robert Nowak: that sort of imbittered wizdom only comes with frustration and maturity. Doubt that you’ll make the cut ‘marron’ young fella-me-lad.

  557. Stevie Haitch
    You know I love you mate, but would prefer that the folks who come by here weren’t made so aware of your unworldly affection for me, a much older man, after all, parts of me droop … in that respect, Stevie, I am unable to help you other than suggest you accumulate a collection of Kate Moss pics and use them in the way they are intended.
    Privately.
    Noiselessly.
    In soft light.

    It can only help.

  558. Rusty Bertha on January 18, 2024 at 9:11 am said:

    @John Sanders Thrice decorated Commonwealth Police Detective long retired, yet you claim you cannot afford a membership at Ancestry? I thought they get generous pensions.

  559. Katherine Moscowitz on January 18, 2024 at 11:14 am said:

    Jesus mate! I’ve only just had me bleedin’ dinner! Where’s the bloody moderator when you need him?

  560. john sanders on January 18, 2024 at 11:51 am said:

    @Rusty Berka: You thought wrong Bob. Got what I paid in and as for the medals, they don’t convert to nothing but the price of scrap metal and a mention in the Commonwealth (Australia) Police Gazette. Check em out.

  561. Steve H on January 18, 2024 at 2:40 pm said:

    @Peteb

    Never much of a fan of Kate Moss. For a start she’s from Croydon. More of an Edie Sedgwick sort of bloke myself.

    Not sure I like your onanistic scenario very much, which reminded me of that banned song by the ‘oo:

    “Pictures of Lily made my life so wonderful
    Pictures of Lily helped me sleep at night
    For me and Lily are together in my dreams
    And I ask you, “Hey mister, have you ever seen
    Pictures of Lily?”

    You did call a while back for folks over here to get more engaged with the actual circumstances of SM’s death and not go floggin’ themselves in a vain search for every distant relative or neighbour etc of our Dorothy. That’s what I’ve tried to do.

    Now I personally think that the Doff searches are worthwhile in themselves and who wouldn’t want to be the first to find a photo of her or a death certificate? DA would certainly jump for joy. But I’ll leave the more tangential and arcane investigations to others.

    I have said before, and to repeat myself, I can’t really take amateur sleuths at all seriously, and I absolutely include myself in that. That’s why I loathe those pompous fools who think that they, and they alone, have the “solution”. I just can’t see anyone finding out why SM died on that beach.

    However I do find the badinage quite amusing in a gruesome sort of way and so have intermittently joined the fray. If you have to shout louder than anyone else so be it. At least it gets you noticed.

    Love and kisses
    Steve

  562. Steve H on January 18, 2024 at 2:44 pm said:

    To whomever it was who astutely and anonymously addressed me on Gord Almighty’s blog by stating “Not that well educated are you?” you are totally correct. But then you had already spoilt it by saying “Steve, Disappointed but not surprised, Kalashnikov is entirely the wrong brand of gun and the wrong message. Try Chekov. ”

    I presume you mean Anton Chekhov and his gun (Чеховское ружьё) but that really was a bit obscure in the context. Not sure how you can hang a literary principle on the wall. Anyways, don’t know where that principle leaves Macguffins, such as the corpse in The Trouble With Harry, which is surely the inspiration for some of the more bizarre SM theories. I’ll leave that puzzle to the more learned visitors to this site.

    Actually I’m more your Dostoevsky type, possibly modelling myself on the unnamed narrator of Notes From Underground, although I have never visited a brothel.

    If something’s worth saying, it’s worth saying twice, which is exactly what Gerroff did on TS/BS (sorry NP – I know you don’t like me quoting from that site but I’m banned over there, and on Tbt!):

    “As a mere observer, it’s so entertaining to watch the dance of the ne’er do wells. On the one hand we have Steve with his verbal flatulence and the other there’s John and his digital halitosis. Yours was a wise choice to position yourself several weeks upwind of both.”

    Talking of John, in a response to Behrooz he has resorted to yet another ad hominem argument against me and one that is cheaper, nastier and fouler than even his usual sordid and feeble efforts.

    “Rather than ridiculed an [sic] derided by a particularly disturbing element in our midst whose prejudice against those of lesser God, by their bigoted reasoning, knows no bounds.”

    This from a misogynist, homophobe, racist and all-purpose bigot himself.

    Less halitosis than copremesis (aka feculent vomiting). You better go to the doctors as a matter of urgency Mr S – see:

    https://www.healthline.com/health/can-you-throw-up-poop

  563. David Morgan,

    The thought of Derek Mistry and his habit of collecting dry and mouldy roots and bulbous hair-ends had me thinking.

    I’ve been very critical of the Colonel for his assertion that an Adelaide realtor could indeed be an adult Grant Beaumont. However, having compared now a series of photographs I’m certain of a resemblance. Although perhaps Mrs Beaumont was copping off with Bronte Snoz before she hooked up with Jim in the back of his Zephyr cab and simply abandoned the child to him.

    There has been talk of a witness called Pussy Willow who claims to have seen Munro and that old pig McIntyre offing the kids. However credible that is I don’t know, but he purports to have evidence that he was rescued by a woman Police Constable from the murder house on the said same evening, stupefied with barbituates. Probably the same type Steve H takes before he comes on here.

    Penny for your thoughts, Probationary Constable Sanders?

  564. John Sanders on January 18, 2024 at 10:16 pm said:

    Russian Kate: Long time between drinks mate?. Last time was 2017 and we were discussing Jessie Reid Harkness of Owen aboard SS Ormonde returning from her humanitarian nursing stint in Spain ’38….or are you another well researched fake Kate?….While we’re here mate?, and to save space, Steve H got her mysoginist [sick] spelling down Pat. You didn’t and I felt mildly miffed.

  565. Katherine Moscowitz on January 19, 2024 at 2:17 am said:

    Steve H – no hard feelings, never one for Dostoevsky or bloody Andy Warhol myself. More of an Tolstoy chick, me. And the Big Prawn, well he can keep his bloody porn. Keep them sodding feelers away from me pics cobber & stay on the case!!

    Cheers
    Kate

  566. Whomsoever it be that dared make reference to dead @Steve H’s standard of education be spot on. I wasn’t going accept the anon. claim; but in noting that the fool admits to being 65, equating to mid range moron on the IQ scale, then so be it. After all a parrot who’s only online posts comprise verbatum quotes of others shows typical signs of your average psycho. Right Pat?

  567. Steve, I ‘d never ban you, you are far too clever a smartarse not to have your contributions re: possible deliberate police malfractions permanently set aside, . the fact that I binned that one comment of yours after two days of exposure was that it was too ordinary. Way below your abilities.
    So cut the sulking sport .. be British.

  568. John Sanders on January 19, 2024 at 9:48 am said:

    Bob No Account..For the record an example on each of my four assigned human failings referred to above, may benefit those now chafing at the bit to be part of the self appointed panel charged with deciding my fate mate. Pure as the driven slush, that’s me all over folks.

  569. John Sanders on January 19, 2024 at 2:23 pm said:

    Minstrel Janet: Still waiting for Byron Devious to come clean on his unmittigated lies concening the kid’s uncle Max’s alleged sex crimes which have no basis at all.
    I’d also be forever in your debt if you could shed some light on the as yet strange disappearance of Jim’s mother and sister in ’59 as well as Nancy’s pal Jean Langley of Somerton. That shouldn’t take too much of your time and hopefully you can provide an update before the aniversary on Aussie Day which some still recognise.

  570. Steve H on January 20, 2024 at 2:22 am said:

    Since I know John “Chihuahua” Sanders secretly loves me filling up my comments with quotes (THAT is why they are always so long!) here’s a few more:

    Sandy (on Kyal Shepard and I’m from Adelaide’s site): “I spoke by telephone to an officer involved in the Beaumont case. He was at the time on leave and he was recalled especially to consult with me. That officer could have been Len Brown or Stan ‘killer’ Swaine?, my duty being only to pass on informatiin [sic]…”

    But by 14 August 2022 on this site (THE SOMERTON MAN / JIM BEAUMONT CONNECTION… thread) JS (ie Sandy) had turned this tidbit into the following: “In the mid 70’s [sic] I was debriefed by then case officer ‘killer’ Stan Swain [sic] who was on pre resignation leave and managed to gain a good insight into his nonshared views as to alternate possibilities that he was sadly not allowed to pursue.”

    So let’s get this straight. JS wasn’t originally even sure if the brief message he had been ordered to pass on to SAPOL re the Beaumont Children’s disappearance when he was the office junior was to Len Brown or Stan Swaine or Uncle Tom Cobley, but, by the tortuous and twisting mechanism of some hallucinatory and solipsistic fantasy, by 2022 this had transfigured itself into a personal “debriefing” by “Killer” Swaine. Who he couldn’t tell from Dixon of Dock Green if truth be out.

    Chihuahua, you are a bloody laughing stock. My guts are aching from all the guffawing – I have literally been howling with mirth for the last hour!

    But what gilds the lily in all this is that the remark came in a reply to “Adriana Xenides” who claimed to be “one of the investigators seconded in the 70s to work back through boxes of material [on the BC case].”

    Our poor hapless clown replied: “Adriana xenidez [sic]: a real pleasure indeed, someone at least familiar with detectives involved back in the day if we include possible links to the 1973 Adelaide Oval tragedy…Thanks for your confidence in my truth seeking bonifides [sic] , I will not change my style.”

    He didn’t even twig when “John Burgess” – presumably Adriana her/himself – gave the game away (pun intended): “The wheel of fortune spins for all of us, Sanders.”

    Just to remind Oz readers and enlighten those from overseas: “Adriana Xenides (née Coutsaimanis…was an Argentine-born Australian television presenter, former model, actress and children’s author…[who] became well known for her long-running, Guinness World Record-breaking role as the co-host and letter-turner on game show Wheel of Fortune. She died in 2010 from a ruptured intestine, after several years of ill health.” (Wikipedia)

    And: “John Richard Burgess (born 4 June 1943) is an Australian television and radio personality and host, often referred to as “Burgo” and from his radio days “Baby John Burgess” or “Baby John”, as the youngest presenter at the station.” (Wikipedia)

    To bring the unintentional hilarity to its climax, and not realising the sheer bloody irony, our blockheaded buffoon replied to Burgo: “John Burgess: absolutely; but not necessarily exempted, for the ballot system was seen as bring [sic] fair to all be they rich or poor. What did occur in the case of sports stars and sons of the influential and affluent, notable exceptions notwithstanding…blah blah blah…Vietnam…blah blah blah…having joined at 17…blah blah blah…sailed away on the Sydney out of Adelaide…blah blah blah…it was the day PM Harold Halt [sic] disappeared…blah bloody blah…”

    I s’pose the delusional dimwit got carried away by Adriana’s flattery; “John Sanders is also a credible individual who has done his own investigations in Vietnam.” Nice one milongal (I noticed the asterisks in place of quotation marks).

    All said and done the Nasho nincompoop DOES take the prize for idiot of the century. And let’s just remind ourselves about his hero Stan Swaine:

    “In 1996, after the 30th anniversary of the children’s disappearance, Mr Swaine made the outrageous claim that he had found a 40-year-old Canberra woman who was Jane Beaumont.

    The ex-detective, who was to go to his grave trying to solve the case, said all three Beaumont children had been taken and raised by a satanic cult.

    The woman in Canberra proved to have mental health problems of her own and South Australia Police quickly discredited Mr Swaine’s story.”

    https://www.news.com.au/national/crime/parents-of-beaumont-childrens-tortured-wait-goes-on/news-story/fb533bc2a34d59bacea04713d1b03732

    Spot the folks in the picture standing in front of the caravan with the Beaumonts – Molly Meldrum (not Jim Beaumont as most believe) and Olivia Newton John.

  571. John Sanders on January 20, 2024 at 11:13 am said:

    Bob No Account,

    No need to amend on what you quoted; sounds about right, bearing in mind the situations refered to happened half a century ago. Only glaring blunder which I do need to correct is your slip up on my being a natio which you know darn well not to be true. You also tend do doubt my easily provable reference of having sailed from Adelaide (that being my point) the very day that Harold Holt disappeared; maybe I didn’t mention that it was also my nineteenth birthday. Those Vietnam days, all 766 of them are mostly long gone from my memory bank and for sound reasons, although I do still have recall of some unerasable aspects of my time at the sharp end. For your benefit they include having to kill people who had more right to life than you my man, though hopefully that can be rectified soon enough if there be a God.

  572. John Sanders on January 20, 2024 at 11:46 am said:

    Anyone wanting to validate my Vietnam service dates, do what Bob did and go to Nominal rolls Vietnam but be mindful of the start date which is correctly stated as 20th December 1967. That being of course the date of the Sydney’s second leg of the trip to VN from Fremantle. No mistake there, my birth date being December 17th 1948, same date as Harold Holt’s disappearance. SOB can cry foul but that’s his problem not mine.

  573. John Sanders on January 20, 2024 at 12:26 pm said:

    Want to know how Det. Swaine got the name ‘Killer’… 23rd September 1952 Trove. ‘Man Shot Dead After Stabbing Police Officer With Screwdriver. Stan done saved his mate’s life; An heroic act of selflessness without any recognition. Guess Bob SOB forgot that part of the story and true to form no doubt.

  574. Steve H on January 20, 2024 at 8:30 pm said:

    Never questioned Mr Sanders’ Vietnam record and never would! I was just quoting from his own comment which I had to shorten with a few blahs. Not interested in the man’s Nominal Rolls or anything else. As I have stated here before I would never make fun of someone’s suffering in ANY war.

    But I would certainly make fun of someone who one minute says they made a brief phone call to another person (although they couldn’t be sure it WAS that individual) and the next make out that they were intimately acquainted.

    Walter Mitty springs to mind.

    Mr Sanders comments (as Sandy, Some Random Stuff Nov 26, 2019) that:

    “Way back in 1975 I had been serving as a Commonwealth police detective in General Crime Squad duties, NSW headquarters…me being quite junior… I spoke by telephone to an officer involved in the Beaumont case. He was at the time on leave and he was recalled especially to consult with me. That officer could have been Len Brown or Stan ‘killer’ Swaine…”

    BUT…

    From this site: https://web.archive.org/web/20140201220601/http://www.beaumontchildren.com/beaumontFalseLeadsCanberra.html

    “[Stan] Swaine had taken over the Beaumont investigation in 1968 when he became head of the South Australian Police homicide squad. He left the police in 1973 to become a private detective, but still kept an active interest in the case.”

    So if Mr Sanders spoke to an officer in ’75 it couldn’t possibly have been Swaine who left the force in ’73. Gotcha! Lies will out Mr Sanders. Your referral to Swaine as “my old associate Detective Killer Swain [sic]” is a bit like me calling Nick Cave “my old mate” cos I heckled him once at the Hacienda except that it REALLY was Mr Cave and not possibly him or Michael Hutchence.

    Furthermore no-one took Swaine seriously after some humungous cock-ups. From The Age, February 18, 2006:

    “A decade ago, after the 30th anniversary of the children’s disappearance, this reporter was sent to Adelaide to interview a vain, muddled old man – an ex-detective called Stan Swaine who had wasted his life trying to solve the case. Obsessed with the theory the children – aged nine, seven and four in 1966 – had been taken and raised by a cult, his latest claim was that a 40-year-old Canberra woman was Jane Beaumont. Apart from estranging himself from family, friends and fellow police, and ruining his career, his increasingly bizarre “investigations” provided cheap headlines for cynical or credulous media.

    Swaine, now dead, was only one of the frauds, cranks and armchair enthusiasts who have made the unspeakable torment of the children’s parents (Jim and Nancy Beaumont) even worse by raising false hopes.”

    https://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/books/searching-for-the-beaumont-children-australias-most-famous-unsolved-mystery-20060218-ge1s42.html

    Now would I imply that Mr Sanders was similarly a “fraud”, a “crank” and an “armchair enthusiast”? Too bloody right I would, although at his age it would be more likely to be a bath chair than an armchair.

    It wouldn’t be so bad if he was just a harmless old git but he has the gall to accuse everyone else of being stupid, a fake or a liar.

    For example today he referred to Pat (“Lady?”) over on Tbt in this manner: “Gotta be thucking joking or else fick as free bricks!” simply cos she asked where the nickname Doff came from. If it was me I’d be more than a little P Doff.

    But even worse he addresses Byron “Reds Under The Bed” Deveson thus: “…still waiting for Byron Devious to come clean on his unmittigated [sic] lies concening [sic] the kid’s uncle Max’s alleged sex crimes which have no basis at all.”

    Er, wait a minute. It is true that BD did state on May 22nd 2016 that Max Beaumont was summonsed for “indecently assaulting Dorothy Jean Hayward” – no, don’t go looking for her records, it’s not Doff – but it was Mr Sanders who ran with that falsehood and made a big deal out of it.

    “Byron Deveson
    on December 26, 2020 at 4:56 am said:
    JS, somebody, on one of the Satin Man blogs, claimed that SAPOL were not previously aware that Max had relevant form. ”

    “john sanders
    on December 26, 2020 at 2:54 pm said:
    Byron: My first impression of those perfumed, fairies* from Angas St. in 1967 was not impressive, on the contrary those I encountered were a bunch of sniggling buffoons. My next encounter in 74 or 75 was equally unimpressive…They had no idea whatsoever about what went down in the Beaumont case…They never checked on uncle Max’s weird military record or his rap sheet for being a potential suspect based on his gazetted sexual assault of a teenaged girl in 1945 at 15 years of age.”

    *”…the perfumed cuff & collar toyboy dicks from Glenelg and Adelaide CIBs in the ’60s and early 70s. ”

    “john sanders
    on May 13, 2021 at 10:39 pm said:
    Then there was Jim’s younger rudder Maxwell John Beaumont who seems to have been a sexual deviant of some note in his teens. Whether Nancy had any cause to distrust him around the little women in her house we’re not to know, though he was accused of being complicit in the abductions, according to press reports in the seventies. Anyhow we’ll stay within the spirit of fairness and leave his conduct in later life for others to discuss.”

    “John Sanders
    on January 25, 2023 at 11:30 am said:
    …..I couldn’t help but notice uncanny similarities in facial features of eighteen year old Maxwell Beamont [sic] in 1947, compared with those of two sketches of the man seen frollicking [sic] with the kids in vicinity of Pier Hotel on Australia Day 1966, bearing in mind that Max was himself 38 and living not so far away at that time.”

    BD did repeat his accusation (January 26, 2023 at 10:05 pm), true, after seeing Mr Sanders’ comment but Mr S had already made a song and dance about Nancy Beaumont palming the kids off to another family in order (partly) to shield them from Uncle Max’s predatory behaviour. He built a whole “fabricated architecture” of ridiculous and bizarre claims out of this supposition that can only have added to “the unspeakable torment” of the wider family. When he realised how badly and harmfully he had stuffed up about Uncle Max he made out it was all a ruse:

    “John Sanders
    on February 9, 2023 at 3:59 am said:
    As anticipated delightful ‘Deni’ is making moves to get the Big Footy team to take the bait apropos Jim Beaumont’s brother Max being the new person of interest. This being based on disproven sexual assault charges…”

    In conclusion the ol’ bighead boasts:

    “john sanders
    on February 17, 2023 at 9:45 am said:
    Deni: if it gives you some degree of satisfaction, no one has ever listened to me either. My satisfaction comes from belief that I’ve solved the case with no help, albeit with much hinderance [sic], on my own terms terms and with a most desireable [sic] outcome achieved whatsmore [sic] . No longer any need to names is there?”

    (I ought to hand out sic bags to everyone so they can sprinkle them as they see fit over Mr Sanders’ posts)

    All quotes from CM on THE THE SOMERTON MAN / JIM BEAUMONT CONNECTION…thread.

    Some good news to report.

    Gordon has welcomed me back with open arms:

    “Steve. You were not banned from this site, I have banned 4 from here in 11 years, I block troll comments, comments that set out to ridicule, demean, discredit or abuse others. That’s why John Sanders for one is banned here. Those are the rules.”

    (Sorry about all the quotes again but I have to get the facts and statements down clearly and in people’s own words to prove the veracity and authenticity of what I am saying!)

  575. John Sanders on January 20, 2024 at 11:12 pm said:

    Bob No Account,

    Guess I’ll leave your childish re capitulation of both Stain Swaine and Len Brown’s well documented involvement in the Beaumont case to those inclined to be more appreciative of how the passage of time can come in to play and not be deemed untruthful. Though in my defence to your gotcha claims I’d say it was as close to the mark as can be despite your cunning distortions and plays on words to so as to better fit the diatribal naratives….Just a couple of things you might need to re apprais in order to get a better handle on facts as opposed to distortion of the truth, if I may. Maxwell Beaumont’s lately digitised NAA army record puts lie to his having any record of sex crimes prior to inlistment at age16 in 1947. Whatsmore supporting evidence to refute (‘reds in the bed) Byron’s devious assertions to the contrary be unimpeachable…Now if you please, a response to a polite request for examples of my apparent serious moral shortcomings posted at still awaits your usual self serving brand of knave twisting and distorting to suit the occasion.

  576. Steve H on January 22, 2024 at 6:20 pm said:

    @John Sanders

    I tried to respond to you on the THE SOMERTON MAN / JIM BEAUMONT CONNECTION… thread three times but despite revisions my comments seem to have gone straight to spam, probably because the names of some of the people you accused of being in on the BC conspiracy are now banned from this site.

    Therefore you’ll just have to take it from me that you are talking complete bollocks!

  577. John Sanders on January 22, 2024 at 10:50 pm said:

    Bob Nowak,

    Seems you’ve been everywhere ala Lucky Star. Only one place you haven’t been and no need for make believe to get there. Just press the full flush button or pull the chain and you’re in for the ride of your miserable life Spam Man. Better than Glenelg, Somerton Beach, Ayers Rock, Arnhem Land, Cottesloe, Sydney, Melbourne and all points between back in 1982…that’s for real and for sure.

  578. Do we have a cause of death for Freda Grace and Doris Maud?

    Richard August, Eliza Amelia, Russell Richard and Gladys May all died from acute complications of chronic vascular issues (hypertension, thrombosis, coronary occlusion from atherosclerosis, myocarditis), which suggests a genetic predisposition.

    The number of offspring decreased from 6 (Richard and Amelia), to 4 (Russell and Amy), 3 (Freda and Gerald), 1 (Doris and Daniel).

    Gladys, Roy and Carl certainly had fertility issues, as they had plenty of time to have children.

    It looks like an environmental factor, rather than genetic, was the cause for the decrease in fertility with time.

    The exposure could have been intra-uterus (during Eliza’s pregnancies) and/or after birth, when the couple moved from St. Arnaud (where Russell was born) to Dandenong (Freda), Prahran (Gladys), Yarraville (Roy), and Footscray (Carl).

    I was wondering if the predisposition to vascular disease that seems to have run in the family could have contributed to Carl’s death in more than one way.

    I will explain my reasoning once I have the cause of death for Doris (was it an accident, given that Daniel died months later?) and Freda.

  579. john slanders on February 8, 2024 at 11:04 pm said:

    In the case of COD Pat, it might be worthwhile to call on our resident authority on such complicated medical conditions for his expert opinion. I note that our Byron Deveson has cited numerous possibilities with hereditorial origins; Such being CTD (connective tissue disorder), NS (neuro syphilis), SD (Scleroderma) and CIS (Cardiac ‘in systole’ [sick] arrest) to name a few. From memory I recall Doris having suffered from one or more of the above.

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